Document Yrx7b69LK9OLr7LM9KK27zV6N

IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF ILLINOIS ALTON DIVISION ROBERT GALLATIN, Plaintiff, vs . ILLINOIS CENTRAL GULF RAILROAD COMPANY, A CORPORATION, Defendant. ) ) ) ) ) Civil Action No. ) C-86-5182 ) ) ) ) ) DEPOSITION OF DR. ROBERT EMMET KELLY On Behalf of the Plaintiff May 20, 1988 CJ Concannon & Jaeger General Court Reporters 411 North Seventh Street St. Louis, Missouri 63101 (314) 421-1000 WATER PCB-SD0000063472 1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COUR SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF ILLINOIS 2 ALTON DIVISION 3 ROBERT GALLATIN, 4 Plaintiff, 5 vs . 6 ILLINOIS CENTRAL GULF 7 RAILROAD COMPANY, A CORPORATION, 8 Defendant. g ) ) ) Civil Action No. ) C-S6-5132 > ) } ) 10 INDEX 11 Direct Examination by Mr. Roven... 12 Page 5 13 14 EXHIB ITS 15 Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit No. 1 ................................ Page 5 16 Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit Nos. 2 and 3....................... Page 73 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ! CONCANNON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000063473 1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF ILLINOIS 2 ALTON, ILLINOIS 3 ROBERT GALLATIN, 4 Plaintiff, 5 vs. 5 ILLINOIS CENTRAL GULF, 7 RAILROAD COMPANY, A CORPORATION, 8 Defendant. 9 ) } ) ) ) Civil Action No. ) C-86-5182 ) ) ) ) ) 10 DEPOSITION OF ROBERT EMMET KELLY, produced, sworn and 11 examined on May 20, 1988, between 8:00 a.m. and 6:00 p.m. of 12 that day, at the Radisson Hotel, Ninth Street at Convention 13 Plaza, St. Louis, Missouri, 63101, before Brenda S. Orsborn, 14 a Notary Public within and for the State of Illinois, in a 15 certain cause now pending in the United States District 16 Court, Southern District of Illinois, Alton, Illinois, 17 wherein ROBERT GALLATIN, is the Plaintiff, and ILLINOIS 18 CENTRAL GULF RAILROAD COMPANY, A CORPORATION, are the 19 Defendants, on behalf of the Plaintiff. 20 21 22 23 24 25 3 CONCANNOir^S--JAEGER---------------------------------------------------- WATER PCB-SD0000063474 1 APPEARANCES 2 Jones and Granger Watterson Towers, Suite 402 3 1930 Bishop Lane Louisville, Kentucky 40218 4 By: John Roven, Esq. and Michael L. Kaplan, Esq......................................For the Plaintiff 5 6 Oppenheimer, Wolff & Donnelly First Bank Building, Suite 1700 7 St. Paul, Minnesota 55101 By: Bethany Kelly Culp, Esq. a and John M. Stoxen, Esq............................................For the Defendant 9 10 n 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ii i i CONCANNON & JAEGER 4 WATER PCB-SD0000063475 1 {Thereupon, the Reporter marked Plaintiff's Deposition 2 Exhibit No. 1 for identification.> 3 ROBERT EMMET KELLY. M.D., 4 produced, sworn, and examined on behalf of the Plaintiff, 5 testified and deposed as follows: 6 MR. ROVEN: This is a deposition being taken 7 pursuant to agreement under the Federal Rules of Civil 8 Procedure. 9 DIRECT EXAMINATION 10 QUESTIONS BY MR. ROVEN: 11 Q Doctor, would you please state your name? 12 A Robert Emmet Kelly, M.D., E-m-m-e-t, K-e-l-l-y. 13 Q Doctor, what is your home address? 14 A 665 South Skinker,S-k-i-n-k-a-r, St. Louis. 15 63105. 16 Q And do you have a business address? 17 A 819 -- The Barnes Sutter Health Service, 319 18 Locust, 63101. 19 Q Sir, you have been kind enough to provide us with 20 a copy of your curriculum vitae today, which we have marked 21 as Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit No. 1, and I'11 just ask 22 you if this is, in fact, your current curriculum vitae? 23 A Yes, it is. 24 Q Sir, what is your current age? 25 A Seventy-eight. 5 CONCANNON & JAEGER : 1 | i j ! j i ! I ! i i i i WATER PCB-SD0000063476 1 Q Could you tell me. sir, what is your current 2 relationship with the Barnes Sutter Health Care facility? 3 A I am on a retainer, and I am a consultant for 4 occupational diseases and for some internal medical cases. 5 ' Q Does the organization, itself, have you on a 6 retainer? 7 A Yes. 8 Q In other words, they call you when they want to 9 consult on a certain - 10 A That's correct -- toxicological matter. 11 Q Are you a partner in that organization? 12 A No. It's owned by Barnes Hospital. 13 Q At the present time how many hours a week do you 14 think you spend there at the center? 15 A One or two. 16 <2 You don't maintain an office at the center, 17 yourself? 18 A No. 19 Q Aside from your work at the center, do you 20 maintain a private practice of your own now, or are you, 21 basically, retired? 22 A Well, the answer to that is no, I do not, and I 23 am probably semi-retired. I am a medical consultant for 24 Consolidated Aluminum. That is one or two days a month, and 25 I am see cases for various lawyers. CONCANNON & JAEGER o ! ! I I i l ! Ii I !I WATER PCB-SD0000063477 1 Q I guess my question would right now, let's e t 2 aside the private consultant work you do in medical-legal 3 circles. Aside from actual medical practice, that doesn't 4 involve legal issues and doesn't involve Barnes Sutter, do 5 you maintain an office for yourself now to treat patients? 6 A No. 7 Q When was the last time that you, yourself, engaged 8 in active private practice that had nothing to do with 9 medical-legal issues? 10 A Well, that's open to considerable interpretation. 11 It depends. If you mean by an active practice, that I 12 opened an internal medical office and awaited people to come 13 in, I did not do that. If you mean by that, did I do 14 consulting work for other physicians on matters of either 15 internal medicine or occupational medicine, that has kept up 16 until the last year or so. 17 Q Can you give me a couple of examples where you ia would have been brought in as a consultant in a case? 19 A Yes.. Does this man have lead poisoning? Does 29 this asn have any illness from drinking out of galvanized 21 containers? That sort of the thing. 22 Q Is there is a certain group of physicians in St. 23 Louis that have consulted with you for that purpose, or has 24 it just been various people around town that you developed a 25 professional relationship with? CONCANNON & JAEGER 7 WATER PCB-SD0000063478 1 A I think it'3 various people, but then Barnes 2 Sutter has been known for quite awhile as an industrial 3 occupational medicine clinic. It was the Sutter Clinic 4 before it was taken over by Barnes, and I was associated 5 wvth Sutter Clinic since '75, and so I have gotten quite a 6 few cases in that -- from that direction. 7 Q Are the majority of the people that are referred 3 to the Barnes Sutter Clinic referred as a result of their 9 retainers by various industries in the St. Louis area? 1 A Or they just just come in; either one. I would 11 say the majority would be sent in by industry, although some 12 are sent in by unions. We operate as the neutral examiner 13 or the impartial examiner for Chrysler and General Motors, 14 so I think they come in, both from, by labor and management 15 volition. 16 Q How are you currently compensated for your time 17 at Barnes Sutter? 18 A I am on a token retainer of $3000.00 year, and I 19 am fee for service on examinations. 20 Q And, of course, I assume you don't have any 21 equity interest in that organization? 22 A Unfortunately not. 23 Q Do they bill the accounts for you? 24 A Yea. 25 Q Let me ask you this, sir; Iknow that you CONCANNON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000063479 1 evaluated Mr. Kracht and Mr. Gallatin for Ms. Culp's firm: 2 that is correct, 3ir? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Tell me, for example, how the billing for those 5 examinations would have worked. Did you bill the railroad 6 directly, or was it billed through Barnes Sutter? 7 A I really can't remember. S Q I guess what I am asking you is in terms of 9 private rferrals, when you have a medical-legal referral 10 from a case that you're working on that doesn't directly 11 involve the Barnes Sutter Clinic, do they just allow you to 12 you use the office for your private work, as well? 13 A Well, if it's a case that Barnes Sutter never 14 heard about, and somebody calls me from Herculaneum, 15 Missouri, or something like that, and I say, "Send the 16 person down to Barnes Sutter." And I will examine them, 17 and Barnes Sutter will send them a bill for the laboratory 18 fees, and the nurse's care, and stuff like that, and I will 19 send them a bill for the medical diagnostic work. 20 Q So you're granted privileges there, so to speak? 21 A What? 22 Q You're kind of granted clinic privileges? 23 A I suppose so, but then there are some cases that 24 Barnes Sutter -- come into Barnes Sutter, and so I don't 25 know whether this case came to me, or it came to Barnes j j ; i CONCANNON & JAEGER 9 WATER PCB-SD0000063480 1 Sutter and came to me. 2 Q In Mr. Gallatin's case, you do know that you saw 3 him as a result of a request from the railroad attorney; is 4 that not true? 5 ~ A That's correct. But I do not know whether that 6 request was directed through Barnes Sutter to me or direct 7 to me. That was is a year ago, so I don't remember it. 8 Q Can you recall how soon before you saw Mr. 9 Gallatin, you first were contacted by the attorneys for the 10 I.C.G. Railroad? 11 A Two or three weeks at the most. 12 Q Were you you contacted directly by phone, or did 13 you get a letter? 14 A I don't remember. I mean I don't remember if 15 somebody from Barnes called -- Barnes Sutter called me. 16 Q Sir, let me ask you this: Are you still granted 17 office privileges at Monsanto World Headquarters, here in 18 town? 19 A Mo. I never was granted office privileges after 20 I retired, with the exception of two occasions. One, for 21 the year after I retired, I was a consultant there, and I 22 had an office there; and then at the time when we had a very 23 large involvement with the Agent Orange problem, as well as 24 a very important problem at Nitro, West Virginia, I was 25 there almost full time for a year, and I had an office then, CONCANNON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000063481 1 but for the past three years I have not had an office. 2 Q And, of course, as far as being a full time 3 employee for Monsanto, you retired, I think, in the mid 4 seventies? 5 A December the 1st, '74. 6 Q So anything after that, any time that you spent 7 at the world headquarters after that, would have involved 8 and been in involved in your position as a consultant for 9 purposes of litigation and case analysis? 10 A Yes, and case analysis wasimportant, also. 11 Q So for a while in the mid seventies, for 12 instance, when the Nitro, West Virginia cases were going on, 13 Monsanto was requesting you to review medical records of 14 various claimants? 15 A That's correct. 16 Q Sir, do you still receive your pension from 17 Monsanto? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Do you know, currently, what that is or how much 29 it is? 21 A Thirty-five thousand a year, or something of that 22 magnitude. 23 Q Are you still a stockholder in Monsanto? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Do you know to what extent your holdings are? i i ! CONCANNON & JAEGER 11 WATER PCB-SD0000063482 1 A Well, it's minor considering they've got 400 2 billion shares, or something. I think I have 15 or 1500 3 shares. 4 Q Are there any other benefits at the present time 5 that you received from them, aside from any outside 6 consulting work that you do for them? 7 A Well, I have a medical -- they have a medical 8 plan that allows a retiree up to, I think, $50,000.00 a 9 year, and I get invited to the old folks' dinner. That 10 makes the sum of it. 11 Q Is there any way that you can estimate for us, 12 and I realize that I have to give you some leeway on this, 13 but is there any way that you can estimate what your annual 14 income is now just from private legal consulting for various 15 attorneys? 16 A Oh, gosh, it varies. I mean last year it might 17 have been 30 or 40,000. The year before that it might have 18 been 60; this year, not so good. 19 Q Business is slow? 20 A It's picking up. 21 Q Can you recall, just to giveme an example, 1 ike 22 last year in 1987, approximately how much did you receive in 23 direct payments from Monsanto for your role as a consultant 24 and an expert witness? 25 A When you say, "directpayment from Monsanto," ! i i J i i i CONCANNON & JAEGER 12 WATER PCB-SD0000063483 1 some coma from insurance companies. They're Monsanto cases, 2 but the money may come from Texas, well insurance companies; 3 is that what you mean? 4 Q Yes, with respect to Monsanto cases. 5-A Probably in the neighborhood of $20,000.00. 6 Q Do you remember that you went through a rather 7 lengthy deposition in Houston about a year ago? Do you 8 recall that? 9 A Well, I've been in several depositions in Texas. 10 Which is the one -- 11 Q This the one taken by Mr. Lacey and Mr. 12 Henderson. It was a videotape. 13 A Yes. 14 Q And I think it was finished here inSt. Louis, 15 ultimately? IS A Yes. 17 Q Since then, have you given any depositions since 18 that time? 19 A Yea. But I am -- I gave one in Chicago on a 20 pentachlorophenol case. I don't know if that was before or 21 after that. I gave one in St. Louis on a One Market Plaza 22 fire in Sen Fransico. There's probably been one or 2 more, 23 that I just don't recall off the top of my head. 24 Q Can yourecall, on thepentachlorophenol case. 25 who you were testifying at the request of, whether be it a CONCANNON & JAEGER 13 WATER PCB-SD0000063484 1 company, or claimant, or whatever it was? 2 A It was a company. It was Monsanto. 3 Q Has that case now been resolved, or are you still 4 in the midst of that? 5 A I think it's been resolved. 6 Q How about the One Market Plaza fire case? 7 A I gave a deposition and I heard nothing more 8 about it, and I understand that some elements of it have 9 been settled, but I don't know whether -- 10 Q Was that at the the request of the Southern 11 Pacific, by any chance? 12 A I don't know who. I was there at the request of 13 Monsanto, but I don't know who the plaintiff was. 14 Q Because I know that -- I think it occurred on 15 their property, the Southern Pacific Railroad, so I thought 16 maybe you were there at their request. Are there other 17 cases that you're currently consulting on that are in active 18 litigation, besides this one, of course? 19 A Yes. There's a -- just forMonsanto? 20 Q For anyone, really. 21 A Well, there's a creosote case that is occurring. 22 Q Where's is that one going on, sir? 23 A Benton, Illinois. 24 Q Can you just briefly,without divulging that many 25 details of the case, tell me what it's about? CONCANNON & JAEGER 14 WATER PCB-SD0000063485 1 A A man is alleging problems from creosote on 2 poles. 3 Q Okay. And who has retained you in that case? 4 A I don't remember the legal firm, but it's 5 Illinois Central. 5 Q Any others? 7 A Yes. There's two others. I am trying to 8 remember what they are. I think there's one or two others, 9 but I am not sure. I don't remember the details of it. 10 Q Those are currently pending, though? 11 A You know how legal things are. They might have 12 started eight months ago, and you don't hear anything from 13 them until they say, "Be ready next week" 14 Q Sir, can you tell me, generally, in preparation, 15 either for your deposition today or prior to the time that 15 you saw Mr. Gallatin, what materials or medical records you 17 reviewed at the request of either Ms. Culp or somebody else 18 from the railroad? 19 A When you say prior to seeing Mr. Gallatin, do you 2d mean in the 4# years that I have been associated with PCB's? 21 Q Mo, sir. I mean records that you have reviewed 22 with respect to this case, either given to you by Ms. Culp 23 or someone else from the railroad? 24 A I have reviewed the records, part of the records 25 of Dr. Tietelbaum and his report. I reviewed the hospital CONCANNON & JAEGER 15 WATER PCB-SD0000063486 1 records of Hr. Gallatin. I reviewed medical records of Mr. 2 -- Dr. DeCastro, and subsequently to my examination, I have 3 reviewed the records of St. Mary's Hospital and Barnes 4 Hospital of early 1988. 5 ' Q The first group of records, the Titelbaum report, 6 the hospital records, and Dr. DeCastro's records, did you 7 have an opportunity to see those before you evaluated Mr. 8 Gallatin? 9 A I can't remember. 10 Q Aside from the specific clinical records on Mr. 11 Gallatin, have you been given any specific articles, journal 12 articles or any other type of technical material to review, 13 to be reviewed by the railroad by Ms. Culp or anybody else 14 with her firm? 15 A No. I think I was pretty much up on the 16 articles, myself. 17 Q Aside from medical articles, has the I.C.G. 18 provided you with any type of, technical type of articles 19 concerning the events surrounding the fire in Centralia in 20 May of 1985? 21 A No. 22 Q Let me ask you this: Doctor, in terms of 23 evaluating the potential exposure that Mr. Gallatin reported 24 having as a result of his cleanup work in the fire, as far 25 as your opinions are concerned today, do you consider any CONCANNON & JAEGER 16 WATER PCB-SD0000063487 1 technical document which might have been generated, which 2 showed levels of the PCB ' s existing on the plant to be 3 relevant or important? 4 A Well, I think they're are always relevant, yes. 5 They have to be taken in consideration of any possible 6 exposure to these compounds. 7 Q Well, is that something that you would want to 8 review before trial, or given the opinions that you have in 9 this case, is it unimportant? 10 A I would like to see them before the trial, yes, 11 sir. 12 Q O't Sir, let he ask you this: When was the last time 13 that you clinically evaluated any individual whom you 14 diagnosed or believed to have an injury related to PCB 15 exposure? 16 A Will you repeat the question? 17 Q Yes, sir. When was the last time that you 18 evaluated an individual whom you believed to have an injury 19 that was resultant from his PCB exposure? 20 A Sometime in the 50's, that I knew we had an 21 injury from PCB exposure. 22 Q Would that have been is a Monsanto employee? 23 A No. It was an employee. There were two 24 employees of a transformer company who were dipping their 25 hands in filling up Bellows thermometers, which is a small CONCANNON & JAEGER 17 WATER PCB-SD0000063488 1 thing, about the size of an egg, built something like a 2 fireplace bellows, and that was part of the thermometer. 3 And they would dip this down into this liquid Arochlor, 4 which is a PCB, and they developed chloracne, and the 5 company -- I forgot customer'sname --asked me tocome up 6 and see them, and I saw thesetwoladies, and I said, "Use 7 an instrument, something like a fork and dip that in," and 8 the chloracne went away, 9 Q Aside from the chloracne, did those two ladies 10 have any other systemic manifestations of disease that you 11 attributed to their exposure? 12 A They had none. - 13 Q Since the 1950's and this particular episode with 14 the two ladies, how many more individuals have you 15 clinically evaluated or have you evaluated at the request of 16 a lawyer who claimed exposure and injury from PCB, but whom 17 you determined did not, in fact, have an injury as a result 18 of their exposure? 19 A Well, shall we go backwards starting with May of 20 1987? There were two then. And, now, do you mean did I 21 clinically examine them myself, or did I consult with the 22 physicians who sent me records? 23 Q Either way. I guess my question might be better 24 phrased, since that time, how many cases have you been 25 involved in, either as an examing physician or the ~ CONCANNON & JAEGER 18 WATER PCB-SD0000063489 1 consultant, that you have seen, and where you have reached 2 the conclusion that there was, in fact, no injury as a 3 result of exposure to PCB's, although the persons were 4 claiming that? 5'A Probably less than half a dozen. 6 Q So this half dozen would certainly include all cf 7 the individuals whose cases you reviewed for Monsanto 3ince 8 1974, correct? 9 A Yes. Well, when I say individuals, I really 1 <b meant cases, because there may be four or five individuals 11 in one case, so I think the answer is probably half a dozen 12 cases. _ 13 Q Well, I realize that it would be unfair to hold 14 you to a strict number of individuals, but if you had to 15 give me your best estimate, would the total number of 16 individuals be, say, more than 20? 17 A Conceivably, yes. It certainly would be less 18 that 40, I think. 19 Q So somewhere between 20 and 40; is that fair? 20 A I think so. 21 Q Can you tell me, sir, with respect, considering 22 your work with the Barnes Sutter Clinic, when was the last 23 time you performed a clinical examination on anyone 24 concerning PCB * s or related hydrocarbon compounds, which was 25 not done at the request of Monsanto or some other defendant CONCANNON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000063490 1 in litigation? 2 A You mean that was not done at the request of a 3 company or Monsanto, a defendant in litigation? 4 Q Yes, sir? 5" A Somebody walked in off the street and said, "I 6 think I have PCB poisoning"? 7 Q Right. 8 A I have never seen one. 9 Q Sir, when did you start working for Monsanto? 10 A January the 1st, 1936. 11 Q And I understand that you served in a part-time 12 capacity for a while? _ 13 A Until March of '42, whenI went in the service. 14 Q And what exactly did you do in the service? 15 A I was associated with the ChemicalWarfare 16 Service at Pine Bluff Arsenel and Edgewood Chemical and 17 Warfare Center. 18 Q Were you serving in a researchcapacity with 19 regard to the toxicology of chemicals, or were you treating 20 workers who were handling various chemicals? 21 A I would say both. The majority of my work wa3 22 oversowing the care of the workers of these two arsenels 23 that were manufacturing chemical warfare agents, but I was 24 also in liason with the research center at the Edgewood 25 Chemical Warfare Center. CONCANNON & JAEGER 20 WATER PCB-SD0000063491 1 Q Would it be fair to say that that was your first 2 introduction to toxicology, per ae? 3 A Oh, no, because, well, I was three years resident 4 at City Hospital, and we had quite a number of people that 5 were exposed to various chemicals. I was at Monsanto, where 6 we had this a very large organic chemical manufacturing 7 plant from 1936 to 1942. That's six years. And about three 8 years of those latter years from, say, '38 or '39 to '42, I 9 wassort of a medical director without portfolio. I went 10 out through all our medical installations in the United 11 States and Canada. So I think by the time I went in the 12 Chemical Warfare Service, I brought more to them than they ' 13 brought to me. 14 Q Prior to to the time you went into the Chemical 15 Warfare Service with the United States Army, can you 16 remember some of the specifictoxicologicalagents that you 17 would have evaluated peoplefor; forinstance,asbestos, 18 PCB's? 19 A Asbestos wasn't very popular in those days. 20 There were phenols. There was phthalic anhydrides. There 21 was benzene, and toluene, pentachlorophenal, a host of the 22 amine compounds, and we had phosphorus compounds at are two 23 phosphorus burning plants. I would say it was a pretty wide 24 gambit of chemicals agents. 25 Q Now, when you went back to work for Monsanto, was j j J j j * i i j i I i j i j | I | ; ; j i j CONCANNON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000063492 1 there any gap in your career move between the army and your 2 return to Monsanto as the medical director? 3 A Oh, three or four weeks, or something like that, 4 while we were discussing what I would be doing and what the 5 details of the position were. 6 Q I guess my question should have been did you work 7 for anyone else? 3 A No. 9 Q I could have made it simpler. Sir, prior to the 10 time that you went into the army, was Monsanto engaged in 11 the production of the PCB's? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Were they manufactured under the trade name _ 14 Arochlor at that time? 15 A Well, they were, yes, although they may have also 16 been labeled depending on to whom they went. If they went 17 to Westinghouse, it was called Inerteen. If it went to 13 General Electric it was called Pyranol, but those were trade 19 names of those two companies. The Monsanto trade name was 20 Arochlor. 21 Q Let ask you this, because I've personallybeen ; 22 unsure of it. As far as theactual product composition of 23 Inerteen, Pyranol, or Arochlor, is it all the same product? 24 A No. 25 Q It's actually a different composition? 1 ! j | j | j i j | | j j i j i j j j j j j | ! CONCANNON & JAEGER 22 WATER PCB-SD0000063493 1 A Well, it varies. Arochlors vary from 1016 to 2 1268. The last two numbers means the degree of 3 chlorination. Now, then, if you have Pyranol or Inerteen, 4 the company General Electric or Westinghouse would ask for 5 the inclusion of trichlorobenzene in various percentages in 6 some of them. Some they would take straight Arochlor and 7 call it Inerteen. Some they would take 75 percent Arochlor 8 and 25 percent a solvent and call it Inerteen, so it was not 9 the same compound. 10 Q I see. So the Arochlor compound that Monsanto 11 marketed itself and assigned a chlorine number to were not 12 necessarily the same products that companies, like _ 13 Westinghouse, was using in their transformers and 14 capacitors? In other words, was a speciality product made 15 for other manufacturers? 16 A Well, first of all, there's a difference in the 17 products and capacitors and used in capacitors and in 18 transformers. Inerteen or Pyranol was never used in a 19 capacitor. Straight Arochlor was, and it was Arochlor 1242. 20 It was used 9.9 percent -- 99.5 percent until 1971. 21 Q Was Monsanto Westinghouse's exclusive distributor 22 for Arochlor 1242 for capacitors? 23 A Well, I don't know what you mean by distributor. 24 We were the sole manufacturer in the United States. I don't 25 know if they bought any from France, or Italy, or Germany. CONCANNON & JAEGER 23 WATER PCB-SD0000063494 1 0 I guess my question should have been as far as 2 you know, in the United States was Monsanto the sole 3 supplier of PCB's used in Westinghouse capacitors? 4 A I don't know that. I know they were the sole 5 manufacturer of the material in the United States. 6 Q You don't know if Westinghouse bought from other 7 companies or not? 8 A I don't know. 9 Q If they did, though, they would have been 10 companies outside the continental United States; is that 11 true? 12 A Presumably, yes. 13 Q And, in your opinion, 99 percent of the material 14 that was used in capacitors, including those of 15 Westinghouse, would be Arochlor 1242? 16 <2 That's correct. 17 Q Where was Arochlor 1242 prouduced by Monsanto? 18 A Annistan, Alabama and also in England at one 19 time, and also at the Krummerich plant in Sauget, 20 S-a-u-g-e-t? Krummerich, K-r-u-ra-m-e-r-i-c-h, plant in 21 Illinois. 22 9 During that period of time, sir, prior to the war 23 and right after the war, was the production of Arochlor a 24 significant part of Monsanto's business, or did it gain 25 prominence later in terms of a product that was prominent in CONCANNON & JAEGER 24 WATER PCB-SD0000063495 1 sales? 2 A It was always a prominent, important product. 3 On couldn't run the subways of New York without Arochlor, 4 without a fire resistent dielectric. Yes, it was very 5 prominent. 6 Q When was the last time, to the best of your 7 recollection, Dr. Kelly, either before or after 1974, that 3 any Monsanto employee was diagnosed by your medical 9 department or your successor's medical department, as having 10 any form of PCB related injury or abnormality? 11 A I have no recollection that we ever had one. 12 Early in 1935 the Swan Chemical Company had some that was.a 13 condition of -- they had some off spec benzene, but that was 14 before Monsanto had it, and I saw some of those people, the 15 residue, after I came with Monsanto, but it did not occur 16 during my tenure with Monsanto. In fact, it didn't occur 17 while the employees were with Monsanto. There was one 18 chemical -- 19 Q Well, one of the reasons for that, I assume, is 20 because Monsanto had an active industrial hygiene program 21 after you took over; did they not? 22 A Wall, not for quite some time, but the other 23 point, I believe, is just as important. The material is not 24 the kind of a horrible toxin that people seem to believe it 25 is. It just isn't, because there haven't been cases at CONCANNON & JAEGER 25 WATER PCB-SD0000063496 1 Monsanto. There has been extremely few cases. There's 2 been only one or two case reports in the American literature 3 in the last 30 years. One was an acute poisoning, and one 4 was a mild chloracne, and I can't recall any more than two 5 or- three letters from customers talking about alleged 6 injuries from PCB's. 7 Q Well, in my prior questions, when I was talking 8 about injuries, I intended to include, for instance, 9 chloracne, and you do agree that PCB's can cause chloracne? 10 A If one gets enough PCB's, yes, one can get 11 chloracne, but the dose has to be very good, because, as I 12 said, there has only been one case history of PCB's causing 13 chloracne in the American literature. 14 Q When you refer to one case history, are you 15 including related by phenyl compounds? 16 A I don't know what you mean by related by phenyl 17 compounds? 13 Q Well, when you say there's been one case history, 19 are you referring only to people who have been exposed to 20 polychlorinated byphenyls, or are you referring to people 21 who have been exposed to the compounds which are close in 22 chemical relation? 23 A Like what ones? What may be close to you, may 24 not close to me. 25 Q Like chlorinated benzenes, for example. CONCANNON & JAEGER 26 WATER PCB-SD0000063497 1 A Well, one cannot assume on the basis of structure a that a compound is close. I mean if you take bichloride or 3 mercury, and it's got two chlorine atoms and one mercury, 4 that's a deadly poison. If you take calomel, that's one 5 chlorine atom and one mercury atom. That's what everybody 6 in the South used to take every Summer. So you cannot go by 7 toxicological structure and say this looks a little like it. 8 Betanaphthylamine, which has an amine group from one part of 9 a benzene ring, it's a carcinogen. Alpha, which is moved 10 over there, one stop. It is not a carcinogen. 11 cannot go by related compounds. So you 12 Q So from this point forward, when you give your 13 opinions in this deposition, and I ask you concerning your 14 opinions about your experience with persons who have claimed 15 exposure to chlorinated biphenyls, an injury to chlorinated 16 biphenyls, we're talking strictly about FCB's; is that 17 correct? 18 A With the one exception that there are some 19 degradation products of PCB's that the dibenzofurans, which 20 can occur and do occur at some times in PCB's. With that 21 exception, yea, we're talking about PCB's. 22 Q Would you also include the dibenzodioxins in 23 that? 24 A No, because there's no way you can get 25 dibenzodioxin from PCB's. I'll be happy to quote the EPA | ! | I II j j ! I ! | I ! i j j | j I j i i j j i i j CONCANNON & JAEGER 27 WATER PCB-SD0000063498 1 study for you on that. You just can't do it. 2 Q Can you tell me what 3tudy that was mentioned in? 3 A Either March of '86 or '87. 4 Q Was this a policy statement that was put out by 5 the EPA.? 6 A It's a whole report. I mean it's not a policy 7 statement. I don't know what they call call them. 8 Q Doctor, I seem to recall at some time in the past 9 that there were studies done, I believe, at least, by Dow ' 10 Chemical to the effect that the various dioxins were 11 commonly found contaminates in PCB's. 12 A I think your confusing it with the 245T, the - ' 13 herbicide, because, first of all, Dow did not make PCB's, 14 and I have never seen that document. 15 Q At any rate, for the purposes of this discussion 16 it's your opinion that dioxins are notcontaminates in 17 PCB's? 18 A That'scorrect, mineand the EPA's. 19 Q Can dioxins b created from PCB's? 20 A Wot from PCB's. 21 Q Can you tell me, sir, when you came back from the 22 United States Army, how soon after that did Monsanto hire an 23 industrial hygienist? A Probably 18to 24months, I believe. 24 25 Q Sometime in the early 1940's or the mid 1940's? ; j i j | j ' ! !I ; i I | j I ! 1 j j 1 | j ! | i j | f i l j i j j J i " CONCANNON & JAEGER 28 ' WATER PCB-SD0000063499 1 A I carae back in '44, and Elmer Wheeler came, I 2 think by '46. I am not certain of the exact dates. 3 Q The man's name was Elmer Wheeler? 4 A Elmer Wheeler. 5 Q Did you, in fact, have anything to do with Mr. 6 Wheeler being hired? 7 A Well, I hired him. 3 A Why did you feel it wasimportant to have an 9 industrial hygienist on staff? 10 A For two reasons. One, this man had a chemical 11 engineering training and point of view that I didn't have, 12 and he was in a position to carry out air studies, which I 13 wasn't trained for. He was able to evaluate ventilation and 14 any number of things that an industrial hygienist does, that 15 a physician does not do. IS Q In addition to that, were you responsible for 17 setting up any kind of periodic medical exams for Monsanto 18 employees? 19 A Yes. There were some of the plants that did have 20 periodic examinations before I came back after the service. 21 Soaa didn't. We had taken over some new plants by merger 22 that had varying types of medical programs, and we tried to 23 standardize them as well as we could. 24 Q Can you explain how the medical evaluation 25 process at Monsanto became standardized; like on what type ; i CONCANHON & JAEGER 29 WATER PCB-SD0000063500 1 of basis were these employees examined? 2 A Well, we would say that before a man comes to 3 work for Monsanto, he has to have this type of examination 4 with this type of x-ray and/or laboratory studies. 5 Depending on the type of work he was doing, he or she would 6 have to have periodic examinations at various times. The 7 examinations would vary in scope, depending on the 8 particular hazard to which they might be exposed. 9 Q So was there first some sort of assessment made 10 of the potential exposure that each employee in each 11 department would have? 12 A That's correct. 13 Q So I guess, for instance, if a person had 14 potential for exposure to fumes or dust, that person might 15 receive a cheat x-ray? 16 A That's correct. 17 Q Whereas, somebody who was working with a pure 18 solvent may not receive a chest x-ray? 19 A That's correct. 20 Q And, for instance, somebody who was exposed to a 21 beaiene product, might receive a liver enzyme profile? 22 A Well, the liver enzymes didn't come until later. 23 Earlier in the 40's and 50's the treatment, the 24 determination of the liver function tests required two 25 venous sections, and that was not too popular a test to get CONCANNON & JAEGER 30 WATER PCB-SD0000063501 1 across. 2 Q I can imagine. Well, just, for example, in these 3 persons who were working with substances which might have 4 been considered to be hepatotoxic at that time, what sort of 5 testing would be carried on in the examination conducted by 6 Monsanto? 7 A It depends also on the exposure, too. I mean no 8 matter how toxic a compound is, if you don't have a 9 significant exposure, you aren't going to get any problems. 10 In those earlier days, there were, as I said, there were 11 urine tests that are certainly outdated now, that were used 12 at times. There were these BSP tests, which was the two _ 13 venous aspirations. That was about it. It was not as 14 simple as it is now, where you get a whole barrage of tests 15 for one blood sample. 16 Q Is it fair to say, at any rate, that by the mid 17 1940's or by the late 1940's Monsanto had in place a 18 company-wide medical monitoring program for the purpose of 19 identifying and preventing occupational diseases. 20 A I think that I would agree with that. I would 21 say w# tried to have a company-wide monitoring. That would 22 depend a little upon the availability of Doctor hours. If 23 you had a place like Elvin, Texas, where you may not have 24 very many physicians, or other places, you couldn't do as 25 much as you might want to do. ! CONCANNON & JAEGER 31 WATER PCB-SD0000063502 1 Q Well, I imagine for instance, were there 2 contract physicians that were used in various locations 3 where Monsanto had plants? 4 A Oh, yes. They varied from contract physicians to 5 people who were on a retainer and came two or three hours a 6 week, to a couple of plants where we had full time 7 physicians. But you may not realize, but after the war 8 there was a relatively serious shortage of doctors in this 9 country, and it was a little hard to get part-time 10 physicians. 11 Q As part of the program that you set up at that 12 time, Doctor, what type of procedures of communication were, 13 or lines of communication were initiated between your 14 medical department and the safety department? 15 A Well, it operated at two levels. The safety 16 department of the plant was very close to the doctor and the 17 nurses in the dispensary, because the safety man was a full 18 time man, and with the exception of a few plants, did we 19 have full time doctors, so there, there was a very close ,# 20 relationship. And whenever I went to the plant to vxsit, to 21 inspect the medical facilities and go through the plant, I 22 always went with a safety instructor -- safety director. At 23 the corporate level there was also a quite -- I mean we were 24 in the same building. We talked all the time. There was no 25 great formal intercourse, but it was an excellent working CONCANNON & JAEGER 32 j i | j j i j | i ! | I j i I j ii j I ! j j ! I WATER PCB-SD0000063503 1 arrangement. Safety data sheets that we sent out, that were 2 medical, would go out to the plant safety inspector, as well 3 as to the physician. 4 Q From time to time, in the 1940's and 50's, can 5 you recall any emergencies which occurred which involved the 6 spillage of toxic materials or emergency situations which 7 required preventative steps to be taken to protect 8 employees? 9 A You mean 40's and 50's? 10 Q Yes, sir. 11 A We're talking now 30 or 40 years ago, to 12 remember. There are always spills in chemical plants. You 13 do get exposures. That's why we have gas masks, air line 14 respirators, and everything else. 15 Q Right. I guess what I wanted to ask is I realize 16 that as you sit here today, you might not be able to 17 pinpoint any specific incident for me, but I guess what I 18 wanted to know is when these things did occur at Monsanto, 19 what kind of emergency procedures or steps were taken and 20 who set up those emergency -- 21 A Oh. The safety people would set up -- the safety 22 people and the manufacturing people would set up the clean 23 up or the -- not only the clean up, but the walling off of 24 the area, isolating area. They would bring any exposed 25 people, any of the walking people, or if there were j I j iI j j i CONCANNON & JAEGER 33 WATER PCB-SD0000063504 1 stretcher cases, to the dispensary where the nurses would 2 see them, and from there they would go to the hospital. We. 3 the medical department, took care of the casualties. They 4 did not take care of the cleanups. 5 - Q Well, were there preventative measures that were 6 used in the field when cleanups occurred? For instance, 7 what was available for these people? Was special clothing 8 available? What was made available to the people who did 9 the cleanup work? 10 A It depends on what it was. In other words, if it 11 was an acid compound, they would have rubber boots, and 12 gloves, and goggles, and aprons. If it were a PCB at room 13 temperature, which didn't volatilize, they would not need 14 all that. 15 Q Based on your recollection, what would they use 16 for instance to clean up PCB's which spilled at room 17 temperature? What would be utilized by the worker? 18 A They probably throw something equivalent to Kitty 19 Litter on it. I don't know what the technical term would 20 bm, but its an absorbent like that, and they'd sweep it up 21 and put it into a drum and take to a landfill. 22 Q How about in the case where you would have 23 pyrolyzation of the PCB's? What kind a precaution -- 24 A I don't think that occurs in the plant 25 operations. In other words, that means, if I understand you CONCANNON & JAEGER 34 WATER PCB-SD0000063505 1 correctly, pyrolyzation, do you mean by a fire or do you 2 mean by heat without oxygen in it? 3 Q Either one of those 3ort of things? 4 A But a fire -- 5 ' Q Where you had a fire, where you had an airborne 6 mist of PCB vapor, what kind of precautions would be taken 7 then? 3 A The only way that you'd have a mist would be 9 blowing out the stack of a reactor, -- I mean where you were 10 making the stuff, and you would put a gaa mask on and turn 11 the thing off. In a fire -- we didn't have any fires in the 12 PCB department, that I recall. _ 13 Q From the best you can remember. Doctor what were 14 the employees at Monsanto told? People that worked in the 15 PCB department, what were they told about PCB? 16 A Avoid breathing the fumes, especially in confined 17 or elevated temperatures, avoid repeated or continuous skin 13 contact. 19 Q And this was communicated by away of printed 20 material, or safety meetings, or how did they get this 21 information? 22 A Well, certainly safety meetings. There were 23 departmental safety meetings once a month for all employees. 24 They were indoctrinated when they came to work, by the 25 foreman. We did send out information on PCB's, as well as | | j I i i | j j i I I CONCANNON & JAEGER 35 WATER PCB-SD0000063506 1 other compounds, to the safety people, and they talked to 2 the employees at safety meetings. 3 Q At some point, Doctor, did Monsanto ultimately 4 set up a research lab or an actual toxicology department? 5" A Yes. 6 Q Do you recall when that happened? 7 A The formation of it started in -- preliminary 8 formation started early in '74, and I think it came to 9 fruition in '76. 10 Q How many toxicoligists, or persons, or 11 technicians involved under that department head were 12 actually hired? _ 13 A Were actually what? 14 Q Hired at that time. 15 A Well, I wasn't there in '76. 16 Q Okay. Well, if you know. 17 A When I left, we had four toxicoligists, and I 18 believe they hired a couple of more before they got this 19 laboratory set up, and I would think they would have ten 20 there, but I have only been in that laboratory twice, 30 I 21 don't know how many people they have. 22 Q When you say toxicology, were these people 23 physicians? Ware they medical toxicologists? 24 A No. They were P.H.D.* s. 25 Q Prior to the time there was a formal toxicology CONCANNON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000063507 1 department, how did you and others working under your 2 control endeavor to determine the toxicity of substances 3 that were either being worked with or products being created 4 by Monsanto? 5 ~A Well, there were three ways of doing it: (1) One 6 would look up the literature to see if there were any data 7 concerning the toxicological properties; (2) If the compound 8 was not a new one to us, but had been manufactured by 9 another company around the United States, I knew all the 10 medical directors and I would call them up and say, "What do 11 you know about this?" (3) If those two failed, failed to 12 give us any information, we had the material tested at _ 13 outside laboratories. 14 Q Were these three steps being followed by you even 15 in the 1940`s and 50's? 16 A Yes. I think our first work in an outside 17 laboratory was around '38. 18 Q And, of course, at the same time you were also 19 exaralng employees to determine whether or not there were 20 actually any clinical effects from being in the departments 21 they worked in; is that true? 22 A That's true. 23 Q So would you say that was another valid way of 24 determining the toxicity of a substance? 25 A I don't think so. I don't think you would want CONCANNON & JAEGER 37 WATER PCB-SD0000063508 1 to wait until a worker got sick to find out if the material 2 was toxic. One might get information from research chemists 3 that were working with it in the bench area. After all, 4 they're working with 10,000 different compounds at one - 5 and you might get information from them as to a side effect 6 from one of the compounds. 7 Q Was tha purpose of trying to determine the 8 toxicological effects of these products, in addition to 9 protecting employees, also to protect users of the products? 10 A Yes. 11 Q And, for instance, in your situation, were there 12 times when you were, in fact, consulted by consumers of 13 Monsanto products who said, "Doctor, what do X need to know 14 about this product?" 15 A Oh, yes, any number of times both by letter and 16 by telephone. There was a rule at Monsanto that the medical 17 department would answer any medical or toxicological 18 question that came into a sales office or came in anyplace. 19 It would be forwarded to our office. 20 Q Did you find that that was a fairly regular 21 aspect of the your work, that you would get inquiries from 22 consumers? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Was there ever any time, for instance, that your 25 department actually wrote literature on products? Like, for CONCANNON & JAEGER 38 WATER PCB-SD0000063509 1 instance, did you write up a pamphlet about Arochlors that 2 you could distribute to people who had questions? 3 A The medical department was responsible for the 4 toxicity information and the safe handling data that went 5 into our company's development bulletins, their sales 6 bulletins about various -- and various product bulletins, so 7 that if somebody would ask a salesman what is known about 8 this, they would hand them this bulletin and say, "Here it 9 is. If you need any further questions, I will let St.Louis 10 write you about it." 11 Q How long ago was it that those bulletins were 12 actually created; I mean that they were available to your 13 customers? 14 A Almost as long as I can remember. 15 Q Even back in the 40's? 16 A Oh, yes, certainly. 17 Q I am sure this question has been asked in prior 18 depositions, but do those old product bulletins still exist, 19 as far as you know? 20 A I don't think they do. 21 Q Doctor, could a competent chemist who sampled, 22 let's say a capacitor fluid, could a competent chemist who 23 sampled a PCS fluid, distinguish Arochlor from another 24 company's PCB's? 25 A Well, I can't answer that directly, because I am CONCANNON & JAEGER 39 WATER PCB-SD0000063510 1 not an analytical chemist, but I do know, for example, that 2 in Europe they tested Monsanto PC -- Aroclors, the French 3 Arochlors, and the Italian -- French PCB's and the Italian 4 PCB's and they found no dibenzofurans in ours by that -- his 5 method. Now let's admit that 20 years ago, in the 60's, the 6 methods weren't too good, and they found in appreciable 7 numbers dibenzofurans in the two other products. But I 8 can't answer the question any more than that. 9 Q I guess the question is this, and it might seem 10 overly obvious to you, but I would assume that the object of 11 Monsanto, when they made PCB's, is to make only PCB's, true? 12 A You mean if they sell PCB's? 13 Q Right, to make pure PCB's? ' 14 A As pure as you can, yes. 15 Q I guess my question might be better asked, let's 16 assume another company, somewhere outside the United States 17 was making a 54 percent chlorine PCB, would there be any way 18 to distinguish that compound from Aroclor 1254? 19 A I can't answer that. 20 Q You just don't know? 21 A I don't know. 22 Q I guess I didn't ask you quite well enough to 23 satisfy my curiosity, but I understand that Monsanto was the 24 only company in the United States that made Arochlors; is 25 that true? S i i | *t i j i j t\ i I CONCANNON & JAEGER 40 WATER PCB-SD0000063511 1 A That was their patent name, and I think I added 2 that's the only one that made PCB's, cholorinated biphenyl. 3 Q So Monsanto was the only company in the United 4 States that made chlorinated biphenyls? 5 A That's correct. 6 Q Doctor, let me go back. I mentioned earlier -- X 7 mentioned a word that I called pyrolization. What do you 8 understand that to mean? 9 A Well, pyrolysis means distruction by heat. If it 10 occurs in the presence -- I do not know if, strictly, that 11 refers to it in an oxygen deficient atmosphere or whether it 12 refers to it in an open area where you've got plenty of _ 13 oxygen. I am not sure which is the right definition of 14 that. 15 A Let me ask you this: Based on your knowledge 16 about the most current literature, when you have a situation 17 where a capacitor burned, such as it did in Centralia, 18 Illinois at the ICG shops, what type of chemical changes 19 occur in PCS materials which alter the byproducts which are 20 generated ae a result of that fire. 21 MS. CULP: I am going to interpose an objection 22 on the grounds of foundation, because I don't think there's 23 any evidence that the capacitors at the ICG facility in 24 Centralia burned, as counsel has -- if you want to pose that 25 hypothetical, that's fine. CONCANNON & JAEGER 41 WATER PCB-SD0000063512 1 Q (By Mr. Roven) Well, let me ask you this, Doctor. 2 Based on your understanding of this case, do you have an 3 opinion as to whether or not, first of all, there were, in 4 fact, PCB's present in the work environment of Bob Gallatin 5 at-the ICG shops in Centralia? 5 A Do you mean do I have of my own knowledge? 7 Q What is your opinion based on - 8 A I think there were PCB's in the capacitor, yes. 9 Q Do you have an opinion on whether or not they 10 burned? 11 A It depends on -- again, I don't know. They 12 boiled out, according to what I understand. When they took - 13 the capacitors down, there were no PCB' s in it. Whether 14 they burned or dropped to the floor, I don't know. 15 Q So you don't have an opinion as to whether or not 16 they burned? 17 A I don't know. 18 Q Well, let me ask you this: Whether or not they 19 did -- let me ask my original question. When PCB's are 20 burned and vaporized byfire, what compounds are created as 21 a result o that? 22 A Hydrochloric acid, carbon and soot. You break 23 down a benzene ring, and you get a small fraction. A 24 fraction of under one percent can be broken. It can degrade 25 to dibenzofurans, and I think that's the major constituents. i i ! j | ! I I j I j j i | ! i I j ; i j CONCANNON & JAEGER 42 IiI WATER PCB-SD0000063513 1 Q Based on the information that you received, do 2 you have an opinion as to what type of PCB's were present in 3 the capacitors in the Centralia shop? 4 A I have always been told, during my years at 5 Monsanto, that the capacitors until 1971, I believe, were 6 all 1242. 7 Q Is there anything special about the constituency 8 of Arochlor 1242 which would alter your answer in terms of 9 what it would produce when it would burned? 10 A No, sir. 11 Q It would be like any other Arochlor; would that 12 be true? _ 13 A When you say any other Arochlor, you get up to 14 some of the Arochlors which are not PCB's. Some Arochlors 15 are chlorinated diphenylbenzene. Some are chlorinated 16 diphenylbenzene plus PCB's. Some are hard waxy solids, and 17 if any of those burn, I don't know what happens to them. 18 Q Okay. Let's talk about Arochlors which are, in 19 fact, PCB's. Would there be any appreciable difference in 20 the type of the furans or the type of materials which would 21 be created when they burn? 22 A Yes, I think so. There's a certain structure of 23 where the chlorines would be in the dibenzofurans. I think 24 that varies between, say, 1242 and 1260, something like 25 that. I think there is some difference. CONCANNON & JAEGER 43 WATER PCB-SD0000063514 1 Q Do you have any opinion as to whether, generally, 2 the toxicity of the end product, of what is created by 3 Arochlor is increased or decreased when it burns? 4 A It depends on a host of things. It depends on 5 how hot the temperature is. There's only a certain window 6 that dibenzofurans are formed. That's around 800 degrees 7 centigrade. Now, it all depends how hot the fire is. If the 8 fire gets up to 900 to a 1000, they're all burned up. If 9 its under -- but I don't know. If it's under 600, the 10 dibenzofurans aren't formed. But it depends a lot on the 11 fire, and the fire a not a homogeneous thing. It's hotter in 12 one area than it is in the other. I can't answer your 13 question. 14 Q Would you agree with me, generally, that if 15 furans are determined to be present in the residue of a 16 fire, that as a general principle they are considered to be 17 more highly toxic than PCB's? 18 A Yes. But, first of all, I don't consider PCB's 19 to be highly toxic. Furans, dibenzofurans are, much more 20 toxic, yes, than PCB'a. 21 Q In terms of the the degree of exposure necessary 22 to create pathology in human beings from exposure to PCB's 23 versus furans, is there any way for you to quantitate it? 24 A No, sir. 25 Q Would you agree with me that it takes less CONCANNON & JABGER 44 WATER PCB-SD0000063515 1 exposure to dibenzofurans to make someone 3ick than it would 2 to exposure to PCB's? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Do you know whether, for instance, the IARC has 5 determined whether any dibenzofurans areconsidered to be 6 cancer causing substances? 7 A In what species? 8 Q In human beings. | i j ! ! ! ! | i i i j 9 A I don't believe I have seen any literature on j 1 that. 11 Q Doctor, let me ask you this general proposition. ' 12 If measurable amounts of dibenzofurans are present in a work ' 13 place, and persons are permitted to handle them by skin ! !I j ! i ; 14 contact without any sort of the protective gear, would you 15 generally agree with me that the opportunity for injurious ; j 16 exposure and foreseeable harm exists? j 17 A And the question was -- last few words? : 18 Q Would the opportunity for harm to human beings -- | I 19 MR. R0V1N: I am sorry. Why don't you read the i 20 question beck. Why don't you strike that and read the 21 question beck. 22 (Thereupon, the reporter read back thepreviousquestion, as ; i I 23 requested.) ; 24 A That depends on two variables that you have in j 25 there. One, what is a measurable? I mean a part per i 45 CONCANNON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000063516 1 trillion? I mean if it's a part per trillion, I wouldn't 2 worry about it. It all depends. Is this inculcated, or is 3 it inside a piece of soot? So I can't answer the question. j i 4 Q Well. let me ask you this: How many part3 per 5 tr-illion or billion do you think would be necessary before 6 the potential for injury exists? 7 A I don't know. ! ! i ! 3 Q Do you have an opinion, if it was one part per 9 billion, could the potential for injury exist? 10 A I don't thinkone partper billion isgoing to | j j 11 hurt anybody. | 12 Q Is there a certain number that you havein your : 13 mind? 14 A 15 Q No, I don't. Let's assume that it was in the form of soot. I i | I j 16 since you brought it up. Would that, in itself, would that render the furan inert? 17 18 A No, it would not render it inert, but it might 19 render it incapable of being absorbed through the skin. 20 Q What would you need to know before you could i ! i ii | | | j I 21 determine it could be absorbed by the skin? . 22 A I think I'd probably need animal testing with j I i j 23 the soot to see what happens. 24 25 ^ MS. CULP: Doctor, anytime you need a a break - MR. ROVEN: Let's take a break now. ' CONCANNON & JAEGER 46 _________ } j I | | ' WATER PCB-SD0000063517 1 (Thereupon, a short break was taken.) 2 Q (By Mr. Roven) Doctor, you have been kind enough 3 to bring two groups of what appear to be medical documents 4 which we can mark as Deposition Exhibit Two. 5 ' A Would I take them back with me? 6 Q Yes, you get to take them back with you. I .just 7 wanted to know, are these the sum total of the records that 8 you have reviewed so far in this case? 9 A Well, I have a hospital record of Deaconess which 10 didn't show anything in '87, and then there was some - 11 there's a hospital record that big. That didn't tell me 12 much of anything. I didn't bring those, but we got them from 13 you. 14 Q Okay. Aside from the hospital records, have you 15 reviewed any other type of materials that have been given to 16 you by Ms. Culp or from her firm or any type of materials, 17 memos, or documents produced by the ICG, besides these 18 materials? 19 A No. No. 20 MS. CULP: You reviewed Dr. Tietelbaum's 21 deposition transcript. That's not in there. 22 MR. ROVEN: Yes. It's in here. 23 Q (By Mr. Roven) You have read Dr. Tietelbaum's 24 deposition? 25 A Yes CONCANNON & JAEGER 47 WATER PCB-SD0000063518 1 Q Any other depositions, sir? 2 A DeCastro's. 3 Q Any others? 4 A Not that I can recall. 5 ` Q All right. Sir, I'd like to ask you a couple of 6 things about your examination of Mr. Gallatin. You saw Mr. 7 Gallatin on July 20, 1987? 8 A Yes, sir. 9 Q Do you recall, approximately, how long your 10 examination lasted? 11 A I think the whole procedure lasted about three 12 hours, because I had Gallatin, Mr. Gallatin and Mr. Kracht 13 at the same time. 14 Q Were you seeing them interchangably, so to speak? 15 A Yes. 16 Q You would send one down for a lab test, see the 17 other, have him do a lab test, and see the other man? 18 A Yes, sir. 19 Q And so the two examinations together, along with 20 the lab test, lasted about three hours? 21 A Around that, yes, sir. . 22 hours. I an not certain. It might have been four . 23 Q Were you able to accomplish everything that you 24 thought was reasonably necessary to evaluate them for the 25 effects of the PCS exposure? j i i | | I j j 1 ! j j !I i i | i ! i i j j ! I i j CONCANNON & JAEGER 48 WATER PCB-SD0000063519 1 A No, sir. 2 Q What were you not able to do? 3 A I wanted to send them to a dermatologist and a 4 neurologist to substantiate my negative findings, but I was 5 no-t allowed to by the plaintiff's attorneys. 6 Q Are talking about me? 7 A I don't know, but Mr. Gallatin went out and 8 called somebody and came back and said, "I was told not to 9 go." 10 Q When did you have an appointment set up for them 11 to go to a dermatologist? 12 A Same afternoon. 13 Q Did you have somebody in mind? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Who were you going to send them to? 16 A One was Dr. Powell for skin, and the other was, 17 I think it was Mendelson for neurology. 13 Q Why did you think that a neurological examination 19 would be necessary? 20 A Because Mr. Gallatin had only subjective findings 21 of peripheral neuropathy, and I wanted to have the 22 neurologist confirm that the findings were subjective. 23 Q Why was peripheral neuropathy an issue in your 24 mind? 25 A Because he stated he had pains in his arms and ! j | i I ! ! I | i ; ` j j ! | j i j | I j I! CONCANNON & JAEGER 49 WATER PCB-SD0000063520 1 legs . 2 Q Why was it necessary to ascertain whether or not 3 he was suffering from the ill effects of the PCB exposure? 4 A Why was it? 5 - Q Why was a neurological examination necessary, in 6 your mind, to ascertain whether or not Mr. Gallatin was 7 suffering from the ill affects of PCB exposure? 8 A I really wanted a neurological examination to 9 ascertain that he was not suffering from it, that, in my 1 opinion, he did not have anything except any symptoms, any 11 signs of PCB intoxication. 12 Q If he, in fact, had peripheral neuropathy, how 13 would that affect your opinion in his case, one way or the 14 other? 15 A I don't -- it would depend, I believe, on the 15 extent of the neuropathy, and I don't know if it would have 17 affected it one way or other, but I wanted to be sure that 18 somebody won't say to me, "You say he doesn't have any 19 peripheral neuropathy? Are you a neurologist?" And I'll 20 have to say, "No, I'm not a neurologist." So I wanted to 21 send him to a neurologist and get his opinion. 22 Q Do you believe that peripheral neuropathy is, in 23 fact, a possible consequence of being exposed to PCB's? 24 A Not from being exposed; from getting a very 25 serious intoxication from it, yes, with an awful lot of CONCANNON & JAEGER 50 WATER PCB-SD0000063521 1 other symtoms and signs with massive with moderate to 2 severe chloracne. 3 Q You had already determined, had you not, that Mr. 4 Gallatin didn't have any of those other symptoms? 5 - A That's correct. 6 Q Can you tell me, having made that determination, 7 why you thought it was necessary to send him to a 8 neurologist? 9 A Because I was sure that one the plaintiff's 10 doctors would say he has peripheral neuropathy, and I wanted 11 to be sure that an expert neurologist would either disprove 12 or accept that statement, and if he did accept the statement 13 that he had peripheral neuropathy, that would be a factor to 14 take into a differential diagnosis. That would not make me 15 change my mind that he was not suffering from PCB 16 absorbtion. 17 Q At the time of his examination did you have these 18 records available to you? 19 A I can't answer the question. May the 6th, '87, I 20 may have had Dr. Tietelbaum's. I am not certain. 21 Q Were you made aware at that time, either by Ms. 22 Culp or anyone else, that Mr. Gallatin had undergone testing 23 for neuropathy? 24 A At sometime I was told he had EMG studies. 25 Q Were the SMG studies available to you? CONCANNON & JAEGER 51 WATER PCB-SD0000063522 1 A I don't know what time they were available. 2 Q Well, EMG studies are objective studies; are they 3 not? 4 A Yes. 5 - Q Could you have not reviewed the EMG studies which 6 had already been conducted? 7 A Yes, I could, but I would like to know that the 8 EMG studies were taken by a man that I had confidence in, 9 and I did not know who did these EMG studies. 10 Q Since that time, up until today, have you had an 11 opportunity to review the EMG studies? 12 A Yes. _ 13 Q What's your conclusion concerning the EMG 14 studies? 15 A The EMG studies show that he may have a 16 tunnelcarpal syndrome of a mild type. The EMG studies are 17 certainly not particularly diagnositic of any severe 18 peripheral neuropathy. 19 Q Are they diagnositic of a mild peripheral 20 neuropathy? 21 A I think you'd have to ask a neurologist about 22 that. 23 Q Have you done that? 24 A No. 25 Q Well, you have a neurologist that you could talk ; i i I i i | ; ! j I | CONCANNON & JAEGER 52 WATER PCB-SD0000063523 1 to; is that true? 2 A Yes. But I am sure he would want to see the 3 patient. 4 Q Well, let me ask you this: Do you intend to show 5 the EMG studies to a neurologist prior to trial? 6 A I don't know if I will or not. 7 Q Sir, on the day that you examined Mr. Gallatin, 8 do you have a note as to what his blood pressure was? 9 A Yes. 198 over 122 in the right arm and 170 over 10 120 in the left arm. 11 Q Would you agree that that's fairly elevated? 12 A Yes, it is. _ 13 Q Did you see any objective symptoms or signs in 14 Mr. Gallatin that you thought were directly being caused by 15 his elevated blood pressure? 15 A Well, his pulse was somewhat rapid. I didn't see 17 --I saw no objective signs. 18 Q Maybe let me reask the question. Did you see 19 anything that you attributed to either his history or the 20 existence of high blood pressure on that day, beside the 21 actual muobers showing high blood pressure? 22 A You mean his family history in which he had a 23 brother with hypertension, also? 24 Q No, sir. I just wanted to know if you saw any 25 secondary illness or any type of symptoms or signs in Mr. CONCANNON & JAEGER 53 WATER PCB-SD0000063524 1 Gallatin on that day that you attributed directly to this 2 high blood pressure? 3 A No, I did not. 4 Q Did you feel that his high blood pressure was in 5 any way symptomatic? 6 A Well, he obviously was under a strain, being 7 examined in a strange city by a strange doctor. He was not 8 ill at ease. He was a depressed man. He was not 9 complaining about headaches. He was not dizzy at that time, 10 so I did not see any overt signs of hypertensive crisis 11 coming on. 12 Q You do remember Mr. Gallatin at this time? 13 A Yes. Sure. 14 Q You would agree that he was depressed? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Would you say he was depressed in a clinical 17 sense? 18 A Yes. 19 Q You could determine that objectively? 20 A Yes. 21 Q It wasn't necessary to ask him if he was 22 depressed? 23 A No. 24 Q Doctor, let me ask you this: He reported to you, 25 I think, that he began to experience some numbness and CONCANNON & JAEGER 54 WATER PCB-SD0000063525 1 tingling in March of 1986? 2 A Yes, sir. 3 Q Do your notes contain any form of handwritten 4 record or form that he filled in indicating that, or was 5 this all taken orally? 6 A Taken orally. 7 Q Well, before thisreport wastranscribed, do you 8 have a set of handwritten notes that it came off? 9 A Yes. I had them. I don't know if they still 10 exist over at Sutter Clinic, or not. 11 Q In the event that you find your handwritten 12 notes, would you let Ms. Culp -- 13 A Sure. 14 Q How soon after theexamination were these reports 15 dictated? 16 A Nine days. 17 Q At that time did you -- is it your customary IS practice to dictate your report strictly on the basis of 19 your handwritten notes, or do you add conclusions to it that 20 are not necessarily in your handwritten notes? 21 A We have to wait for the laboratory data to come 22 back. We have data from the x-ray. We had to wait for the 23 PCB levels to come back. We had to wait for the SMA 23 to 24 come back. And some of the these, the T cells took quite 25 awhile to get back. i ! ! i ( CONCANNON & JAEGER 55 WATER PCB-SD0000063526 1 Q Doctor, let me ask you this: You did this 2 examination over two years after the date of the fire, the 3 incident; is that true? 4 A Yes, sir, 5 _ Q Under these circumstances, did you expect the 6 serum PCB test, in other words, the test that measured PCB' s 7 in the blood, to show an elevated level the PCB's? 8 A No, I didn't expect it; not for that reason. I 9 didn't expect it to show much, because he didn't have any 10 signs of chloracne. He didn't have any signs of liver 11 problems. He didn't have any signs of the PCB intoxication. 12 Q Even if he had signs of chloracne two years 13 later, would you not agree that a serum PCB blood test, two 14 years after the fact, would likely not show elevated levels 15 of PCB? 16 A Not necessarily, because in the Yicheng cases -- 17 that's y-i-c-h-e-n-g, cases in Taiwan, T-a-i-w-a-n, they 18 were elevated twice normal a year afterwards. I don't know 19 two years, but they were elevated twice normal. 20 Q The fact that he did not have elevated serum PCB 21 levels did not, in itself, rule out the possibility that he 22 still was suffering in some way from PCB exposure; did it? 23 A That was only one piece of the entire matrix. 24 Q Right. I understand that, but I am saying that 25 that, in itself -- CONCANNON & JAEGER 56 WATER PCB-SD0000063527 1 A No. 2 Q -- would not have been sufficient information to 3 rule out the possibility of PCB syndrome or intoxication? 4 A First of all, I don't know what PCB syndrome is. 5 I "have never seen that in the literature outside of Dr. 6 Tietelbaum' s reports., so I can't comment on that, but it was 7 a dot. The fact of a negative PCB below the detectable 8 limits of the test was not a dominant factor in my 9 reasoning. 10 Q Can you, basically, explain -- I understand what 11 you're saying, and I appreciate your answer, but can you 12 explain why that was not a dominant factor, given the time 13 period? 14 A Yes. because PCB levels vary greatly. They vary 15 greatly with the diet. They could vary with the exposure, 15 with the occupational exposure. And if I came up with a 17 level of PCB's in the blood two years afterwards that was 40 18 parts per billion, that would enter into my thinking as to 19 what wo may have here, but I was quite convinced that we 20 weren't going to see that, but I wanted to be sure. 21 Q If you had seen, for instance, 40 parts per 22 billion two years later, what type of red flag would that 23 have raised for you? I realize you didn't see it, but if 24 you had, of what significance might that have been? 25 A Well, it's hard to answer, because, first of all, CONCANNON & JAEGER 57 WATER PCB-SD0000063528 1 I don't believe anybody gets chloracne, unless they have a 2 pretty high PBC level. You are asking me to take one item 3 out of a diagnositic picture. When you try to make a 4 diagnosis of PCB poisoning, you have to look at, first, the 5 exposure; second, what does the man have, clinically; third, 6 what does he have laboratory-wise? So in the clinical 7 aspect, you look for enlarged liver. You look for 8 chloracne, and there have been reports of peripheral 9 neuropathy. In the laboratory work, you look for liver 10 enzyme studies. You look for T cell abnormalities, which he 11 didn't have, and you also look for PCB levels. 12 Q Let me ask this, initially, because this might be 13 a better way to go about it. What manifestations of disease 14 in humans do you believe are caused or can be caused by 15 exposure to PCB's, if the exposure is sufficient? 16 A Chloracne, chemical hepatitis, and peripheral 17 neuropathy. 18 Q Anything else? 19 A No. It all depends on how massive the exposure 20 is, of course. 21 Q Is there anything, aside from these three things, 22 that you would change or add to the list if the individual 23 is exposed to both PCB's and dibenzofuran? 24 A I don't think so. I believe the information on 25 dibenzofuran is relatively recent. When I say relatively. CONCANNON & JAEGER 58 WATER PCB-SD0000063529 1 ten years since the Japanese and Taiwan episodes. And they 2 were taken internally by eating the material and in 3 relatively large doses, and the chloracne was massive. I 4 mean there was no question about it. It was massive. They 5 had loss of weight at the time of the episode. 6 Q In an individual who exhibits any one of let 7 me ask you this: Can these things, chloracne, chemical 8 hepatitis, and peripheral neuropathy exist in isolation as a 9 result of PCB exposure, or must one thing follow the other, 10 or must they all be present in combination before a 11 diagnosis can be made? 12 A If you have an acute exposure to PCB's, you can 13 get jaundice and chemical hepatitis within three days, and 14 you don't have time for chloracne, and you don't have time 15 peripheral neuropathy. You don't have time. That's an 16 acute episode, and there's been one case in American 17 literature about that. You can get chloracne with no other 18 symptoms, but the commonly accepted medical viewpoint is 19 that apart from an acute episode, chloracne is the hallmark 20 of PCB poisoning, and if you don't get that, you're not 21 going to get any of the others. 22 Q Must the chloracne appear within a certain time, 23 or is there a certain time frame in which it would be . 24 expected to appear? 25 A Well, it always appears within -- we're talking CONCANNON & JAEGER 59 WATER PCB-SD0000063530 1 about PCB's now? 2 Q Yes, sir. 3 A Within one to two, two and a half months after 4 the episode. 5 "" Q Can you tell me, or can you cite for me any 6 specific literature in which that opinion would be 7 reflected? 8 A I can. I don't have it at my fingertips. Write 9 it down. I will have it. 10 Q When human beings describe the existence of 11 chloracne, retrospectively, what do they describe it as? 12 Has it been described as a rash? Has it been described as r 13 eruptions in the literature? 14 A Well, I don't believe the literature puts the 15 patient's diagnosis in. It's usually a physician and/or a 16 dermatologist who describes it. I don't believe that 17 chloracne isdiagnosed by patients'description of 18 something. 19 Q But patients do describe symptoms, and since you 20 know what chloracne is, have you ever had patients describe 21 to you dermal manifestationswhich you determinedto be 22 chloracne, but which they did not describe as chloracne by 23 that term? 24 A Read that back to me, please. 25 (Thereupon, the reporter read back the previous question as i j j ! I j | ! ; j ! \ * i I ! ! j : ! j i i I j i | | j i j j CONCANNON & JAEGER 60 WATER PCB-SD0000063531 1 requested.) 2 A You want rephrase that question? 3 Q What does chloracne look like to a layman? 4 A It could vary from a few blackheads under the 5 eyes, along what is called the malar, m-a-l-a-r, prominence, 6 which is to the right of the eyes. It could -- that's the 7 most minor type. It could start as either clogged up black 3 heads or small yellowish -- not pimples, because a pimple is 9 reddish. A pimple is infectious, but a small yellow spot on 10 the skin all the way up to large cystic masses, the size of 11 half an inch in diameter. 12 g Can it also encompass all the different _ 13 variations of skin eruptions in between? 14 A No. In other words, you mean go from redness to 15 comedones, which are blackheads? 16 Q I guess what I am asking, sir, is if a person has 17 a manifestation of chloracne, must it it be either 18 blackheads, or small yellow spots, or cystic type acne, or 19 can it cover the spectrum of those things in any given 20 individual? 21 A Well, he can't have a heat rash and call it 22 chloracne. He could call it chloracne, but it isn't 23 chloracne, if that's what you mean. If a man has 24 folliculitis, a man who is operating with oils and greases, 25 that's folliculitis. That's not chloracne. That's an CONCANNON & JAEGER 61 WATER PCB-SD0000063532 1 infection of a hair follicle. If you've got areas were he 2 rubs himself together, a man with fat chunky thighs, rubs 3 himself himself together, he's got a pinpoint type rash 4 there, which is not chloracne. 5 - Q I guess what I am asking is could an individual 6 have blackheads along the malar prominences of the face and 7 have a cystic type chloracne on some other place on his 8 body, or are the three mutually exclusive? Can you only 9 have the yellow discolorations without a cystic type 10 discoloration? 11 A. Yes, because that's the minor type. In other 12 words, a cystic type of acne is more severe. Maybe I can 13 explain it. You see a teen-ager with pimples. That's a 14 minor form of teen-age acne. If you see a teen-ager with 15 big red blotches on his face and on his back, and he's got 16 swelling, the kind that they are talking about, where they 17 are using Retin A or something like that, now, that is a 18 serious form of adolescent nonccupational acne, teen-age 19 acne, or adult acne. Well, the same thing obtains -- in 20 chloracne you could have a small amount of these little 21 yellow spots or have a small amount of blacksheads that the 22 person doesn't even know he has, because they're on the back 23 of his ear. He hasn't looked at them -- all the way up to a 24 very serious involvement. You have seen pictures of them, 25 I'm sure, in these articles you have read, of serious I i i Ii i CONCANNON & JAEGER 62 WATER PCB-SD0000063533 1 chloracne. ao Q Okay. And the only thing I am trying to ask you 3 is, can a person have various stages of chloracne on 4 differnt parts of his body at the same time, or will he 5 always evolve from one stage to the next where they are 6 mutually exclusive of each other? 7 A I do not think they are mutually exclusive. In 8 other words, I would say that a person usually starts with a 9 mild chloracne in his, either in the face, or the neck, or 10 behind the ears, but I have seen cases of chloracne from 11 herbicides that were serious, that were -- made in a matters 12 of weeks had gone into extremely large, almost boils, but 13 they did not come to a head, over his back, and over his 14 neck, and some on his chest. And so they are not mutually 15 -- I don't say that every cystic -- I am not saying that 16 every cystic lump on the man started out as a small 17 comedone. 18 Q If we call the blackhead stage, stage one; and we 19 call the yellow spots state two; and we call the cystic 20 variety stage three, can an individual have stage one 21 chloracne on his face, stage two chloracne on his neck and 22 shoulders, and stage three chloracne on some other part of 23 his body; is that possible? 24 A It's possible, but from a practical point of 25 view, you are really looking at the serious areas of a man. 1 I ! t CONCANNON & JAEGER 63 WATER PCB-SD0000063534 1 You may not be paying much attention to the small little 2 blackheads or small little yellow spots. If a man has got 3 150 masses of sweat material, ranging from a quarter of a 4 inch to an inch over his body, conceivably he could have 5 both, yes, but I do not believe, and I am not certain that 6 you have to start with this large cystic area from a small 7 little yellow spot. 8 Q I understand that there's not necessarily a 9 progression from one to three. I just want to know if 10 varieties one, two, three can manifest themselves on the 11 same individual at the same time? 12 A I think they could, yes. 13 Q Sir, let me ask you this, also. Many times, If 14 an individual is exposed to a product which produces 15 chloracne, that individual can also be exposed to a ' 16 coproduct or the same product which produces a skin rash, as 17 well, can he not, an irritant type rash; is that not 18 possible? 19 A Yea. 20 QSo you can have a systemic reaction resulting in 21 chloracne and also have an immediate dermal reaction which 22 consists of a regular rash from the same product; can you 23 not? 24 A Yes. 25 Q And that can happen from PCS's, as well; can it | i !tI I j ! i j | J j | ! ! ! j : I j I1 j | i | i i ! j ) CONCANNON & JAEGER 64 WATER PCB-SD0000063535 1 not? 2 A Well, PCB's a good solvent, and it will act on 3 the skin like a paint remover. 4 Q So it'3 certainly consistent that individual 5 could, say, have a, could simply have a red dermal rash from 6 being in contact with PCB's within a week or two? 7 A And then what? 8 Q Well, aside from chloracne, could an individual 9 contract a simple dermal rash from being in contact with 10 PCB's? 11 A Yes. 12 Q And does that occur from time to time? _ 13 A If they don't follow the label directions, it 14 could. 15 Q Sir, let me ask you about something in your 16 reports. On the third paragraph you mention that the 17 laboratory normal for PCB' s in human fat, adepose tissue, I 18 believe, is up to a 1000 micrograms per gram; is that 19 correct? 20 A Yes, if that's parts per million. Yes, sir. 21 Q It's your opinion, then, that one 1000 parts per 22 million would be considered a laboratory normal? 23 A Well, it was in the laboratory that Mr. DeCastro 24 used. This the latest I believe. In the Deaconess Hospital 25 laboratory the fat biopsy was two raicrograras per gram of CONCANNON & JAEGER 65 WATER PCB-SD0000063536 1 fat, 2000 parts per billion. The normal from that 2 laboratory was up to 1.0 micrograms, which is a 1000 parts 3 per billion. That's one part per million. 4 Q So the laboratory normal, as used by this 5 laboratory is one part per million? 6 A That's right. 7 Q VThat is your understanding of how that figure was 8 derived or when it was derived? 9 A It was derived by random sampling of a number of 10 of people that were both occupationally exposed, or people 11 who ate fish a great deal in Michigan, contaminated fish; 12 and people who used sludge as a gardening accessory, and r 13 they,the Public Health Service showed numerous levels of, 14 did mostly on blood, but they also did it on fat in some 15 cases. 16 Q Is it your understanding that the meaning of that 17 term is that if an individual has less than one part per 18 million PCB's in his fat tissue, that he cannot get ill from 19 his exposure? 20 A He, I don't say that, at all. 21 Q So it is possible then that somebody can get ill 22 from exposure to PCB's and show less than that amount in his 23 adipose tissue? 24 A It's possible, but it's -- it's possible 25 Q Let me ask you one other thing about your report. CONCANNON & JAEGER 56 WATER PCB-SD0000063537 1 Apparently, Mr. Gallatin told you that somebody had advised 2 him that he had chloracne lesions on his back? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And you saw no evidence of that? 5 A I saw none. 6 Q Did you see any type of lesions on hisskin, at 7 all? 8 A There were small, occasional small red spots 9 similar to a heat rash on his buttocks. 10 A That was it? 11 A That was it. 12 Q Doctor, if anindividual gets a systemicreaction 13 to PCB's that result in some type of stage of Chloracne, 14 does it remain constant in that person until it eventually 15 resolves? 16 A Does what remain constant? 17 Q The Chloracne. Can Chloracne go into remission 18 and reappear, or does it always remain constant? 19 A It can disappear, and some can stay. 20 Q But I guess my question is can it disappear and 21 come back? 22 A Mo, I don't think so. 23 Q You think it remains with the person until it 24 ultimately resolves? 25 A Yea. It doesn't come and go like a cold. CONCANNON & JAEGER 67 WATER PCB-SD0000063538 1 Q Can it manifest itself on different portions of 2 the body at different times? 3 A Yes. 4 Q For instance, can anindividualget chloracne 5 le'sions on his face and two months later develop them on hi3 6 arm? 7 A It's possible, but it isn't usual. In other 8 words, one would think that this a -- barring no further 9 further exposure to whatever is causing the chloracne? 10 Q Yes, sir. 11 A I would thinkthat would be along period of 12 time. If a person had that type of exposure, I feel that 13 there would get a pretty severe reaction not too long after 14 it started on their face, but I can't quantify how long a 15 period that might be. 16 Q Is there any part of the body, in your opinion, 17 in which human beings cannot exhibit chloracne or some other 18 skin manifestation of exposure to PCB's? 19 A Well, I could quote Dr. Crow, who says that it 20 doesn't appear on the nose. I have never seen any pictures 21 of it on the palms of the hands. The thighs are usually not 22 affected by chloracne. 23 Q Are there any other parts of the body in which 24 you would definetly not expect to see it? 25 A Yes. I don't think I'd expect to see it in the CONCANNON & JAEGER 58 WATER PCB-SD0000063539 1 scalp. 2 Q Is there any reason for that? I mean is there a 3 reason why you would not expect to see it? 4 A I think it's in the presence of sebaceous glands 5 in those places, although I don't know why Crow says the 6 nose, but she's very positive on it, and she is quoted as an 7 authority. 8 Q So, basically, then, it would be the nose, the 9 palms, the hands, and the scalp where you would not expect 10 to see chloracne? 11 A Yes, well I think it's simpler to tell you where 12 the more common places are. The more common places are the 13 prominences round the cheeks, the back the ears, the neck, 14 the back of the neck, the back of the chest and the anterior 15 part of the chest, the penis and scrotum. 16 Q What in the past has been the dominant treatment 17 for chloracne? 18 A It's been relatively unsatisfactory. They have 19 tried x-ray,70 20 at times, and that causes pigmentation, and it is no longer 21 ussd. They have given Vibramycin, one of the antibiotics. 22 Before the antibiotics, hot compresses and extract the 23 material with a coraedone extractor, which looks like a donut 24 on the end of a toothpick. I do not know if Retin A is used 25 for it or not, because I have seen no reports of chloracne CONCANNON & JAEGER 69 WATER PCB-SD0000063540 1 occurring in the medical lately, so I don't know. 2 Q If an individual does not die from intoxication 3 from a chemical which causes chloracne, will the chloracne 4 eventually resolve in all people? 5 -- A Not in everybody. I have seen cases from 6 herbicides where there was dioxin. Now, remember that 7 herbicide is different than PCB's . Dioxin isn't in PCB's, 8 but it is clearing up. I mean, but they still would have 9 comedones. That would be there. They weren't evacuated. 10 The active phase goes away. There may be scarring. There 11 would be scarring and pitting of the face. 12 Q So if an individual has an exposure that's 13 sufficient to cause chloracne, that individual could 14 conceivably have either the problems or the residual from 15 that problem for the rest of their life? 16 A Well, it depends on degree, now, you are talking 17 about. I mean, certainly if a person has a chloracne of 18 the type that was described in the literature by Meigs, 19 M-e-i-g--s, in which these six people inhaled PCB fumes, was 20 mild. Some of them didn't even know they had it. That 21 cured up within 18 months. The skin was normal. So you're 22 talking about different things. You have people that had 23 herbicide intoxication with dioxin. They had that the rest 24 of their lives. 25 Q So it depends on the agent, really? . 70 | ________________________________________________________________1 CONCANNON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000063541 1 A It depends on the severity, I think, yes. 2 Q Are there any other type of skin manifestations 3 or abnormalities that can be caused by PCB's that would not 4 be strictly classified as chloracne? 5 A Yes. We talked about it. It's a good paint 6 remover. It's like putting paint remover on your hand, on n your wrist. 8 Q Aside from a rash, I mean are there any other 9 types of things like boils, scale, sluffing of the skin, any 10 other things like that that can be caused by PCB in relation 11 or exposure that would not be strictly classified as 12 chloracne? _ 13 A No, not unless it were boiling hot, but, I mean, 14 room temperature stuff, it wouldn't. 15 Q Doctor, let me ask you a question. In reviewing 16 Mr. Gallatin's situation, you saw that there were 17 essentially two fats biopsies that were done. One was done 18 on the side of the body, which I think revealed 19 parts per 19 billion PCB's. Several months later there was a biopsy 20 taken from the shoulder or the neck which revealed, I 21 believe, 200 parts per billion? 22 A I don't know what the time frame was. I don't 23 know which one was done first. 24 Q Well, assume for the stake of the question that 25 the biopsy from the aide, which showed the lesser amount, CONCANNON & JAEGER 71 WATER PCB-SD0000063542 1 was taken first. From your knowledge about PCS's, how do 2 you explain the fact that the second biopsy, which was taken 3 later, showed a 10 times higher level than the biopsy taken 4 from the side? 5~A If the second was the lipoma that they took off, 6 and a lipoma is a circumscribed fatty tumor, which it just 7 sits there; whereas, the metabolism of that, one would not 8 expect to be as marked as a metabolism of the fat under your 9 skin and the rest of your body, so that I think it's 10 perfectly logical that any PCB's that happen to be in the 11 fat in the lipoma would not -- could vary from tissue 12 elsewhere in the body. But still, remember these are all_ 13 under the range that you expect, so conceivably, if they 14 took another sample of Mr. Gallatin, he might have 150 15 someplace else. Anything up to a 1000 is normal, is in the 16 normal range. 17 Q Would you anticipate in an individual, who was 18 not occupationally exposed to PCB's, finding levels of up to 19 a 1000 parts per billion? , 20 A Well, there, again, I believe it depends on the 21 laboratory which is running it. There are probably only 22 half a dozen laboratories in the United States that are 23 completely -- you could have results that are replicas that 24 you can be 100 percent sure of the results. The SPA has 25 sent out samples to various laboratories that they've got. i j l i j II i J j CONCANNON & JAEGER 72 WATER PCB-SD0000063543 1 and variations all over the lot, so you've got to be sure of 2 the laboratory. So to answer your question, if a laboratory 3 tells me their normal is 1000, and you come in with 200, 4 that would seem to be me to believe that that's pretty low 5 a s' far as that laboratory i3 concerned, 6 Q Well, then, are you saying that the normal is 7 established by the laboratory? 8 A No, it isn't, but laboratories do have their own 9 normals. After all the SPA, when they did their work, it 10 came out with these various figures. They used some 11 laboratories, but I think most of the time the laboratory 12 has some sort of a control, and they may -- I don't know ^ 13 where they get that control, but their control may be 1000 14 parts. I am not making myself clear on this, but it is not 15 established by the laboratory, but the laboratory that does 16 the analysis bases their interpretation of the results on 17 some normal. Now, another laboratory, which might have 25 18 parts per million, could conceivably say that our laboratory 19 runs a normal individual, and we find that our normal 29 individuals run at 500 parts per billion. 21 Q So the normal established by the laboratory could 22 be established on the basis of geographical distinctions 23 depend depending on where the laboratory is? 24 A I don't know how they establish those. 25 Q I mean, you would agree with me that there may CONCANNON & JAEGER 73 WATER PCB-SD0000063544 1 very well be parts of the population in the United States 2 where higher PCS levels in fat tissue exist? 3 A Yes. 4 Q In other words, people who live in metropolitan 5 areas would, probably because of the type of exposure to the 6 environment they have, probably have a higher background 7 level of PCB's than somebody who lives in Alaska; Would you 8 agree with me on that? 9 A I don't know, because people in Alaska may be 10 eating a lot of fish. 11 Q Maybe so. But for whatever reason, there can 12 certainly be geographical distinctions in what we would 13 expect from background levels, true? 14 A It is true, but it hasn't been that great. In 15 fact, I don't know how well it's been established in fat, 16 because you don't go around taking fat biopsies, as a rule, 17 from random individuals that are living in, either in St. 18 Louis as school teachers, or in Alaska as air bush pilots. 19 So there's a lot of work done on bloods in various places, 20 and there, it hasn't varied all that greatly. I mean you 21 might have from fiveparts per billion to ten per billion 22 in fish eaters, and five parts for the people who don't 23 fish. 24 Q Well, let me ask you this, personally. Based on 25 your experience, are you satisfied that we have, established CONCANNON & JAEGER 74 WATER PCB-SD0000063545 1 a norm which can be relied upon by physicians in this area? 2 A I think so, yes. 3 Q And what do you think that is? 4 A In fat? 5 Q Yes, sir. i | I 6 A I think up to one part per million in fat. Under that would be considered in the range of normal people. 7 j j 8 MS. CULP: Are we getting ready to stop now? 9 MR. ROVEN: Yes. 10 Q (By Mr. Roven)Doctor, have you, yourself, had 11 patients with fat levels of more than one part per million 12 and who were not sick? _ 13 A No, sir, I have 14 Q Have you ever had patients with more than one j II not.i !I 15 part per million in their fat? 16 A No. i 17 Q Does that include people who, in fact, had heavy 18 occupational exposures to Arochlor? 19 A Well, people weren't doing fat biopsies on 20 individuals in occupational areas. These people were well. 21 You don't go doing a biopsy on a well worker. 22 Q How many fat biopsies -- how many individuals j t ! i 23 have you seen fat biopsies done on that were, in fact, 24 exposed to PCB's in some setting? 25 A None of mine. I have not have had any fat CONCANNON & JAEGER 75 WATER PCB-SD0000063546 1 biopsies taken on any of the people I have seen. 2 Q Why is that? 3 A Why? 4 Q Yes, sir. 5 ' A I didn't think it was necessary. 6 MR. ROVEN: We're almost ready to stop, but I've 7 got about five minutes. Promise. 8 MS. CULP: Off the record. 9 (Thereupon, an off the record discussion was held.) 10 MR. ROVEN: Let's go back on the record. 11 Q (By Mr. Roven) Let me just ask two more 12 questions. Sir, on page three of your report on Mr. _ 13 Gallatin -- are with me? 14 A Yes. 15 Q You noted that his vibratory test showed that he 16 felt the tuning fork for four seconds in either ankle. This 17 is a subjective test which is hard to evaluate. Can you 18 expound on that a little bit? Can you explain that to me? 19 A Yes. In other words, you put a tuning fork on a 20 man's ankle, and you say, "Can you feel it?" And if he 21 says, "No," there's no way that you would be able to tell 22 that he doesn't feel it. But if he feels it, and he says, 23 "Yes, I can feel it," and he says, "Well, I can't feel it 24 now," you don't know if he still feels it or not, but, 25 anyway, he was feeling it for four seconds in each leg. CONCANNON & JAEGER 76 WATER PCB-SD0000063547 1 Q What is tha purpose of that test? 2 A The purpose of the test is to see if there's any 3 disorder in the peripheral nerves that are responding to 4 tuning fork vibrations. 5 ' Q If, in fact, Hr. Gallatin did feel the tuning 6 fork for four seconds in either ankle, what would that 7 indicate? 8 A He had nerves down to his ankle that were working 9 pretty well. 10 Q Why, then, is it a hard test to evaluate? 11 A Because what if he said, "I didn't feel it." How 12 do I know if he didn't t feel it, or not. L 13 Q But he didn't say that? did he? 14 A No. 15 g Just curious. 16 MR. ROVEN: Why don't we stop here? Do you want 17 the Doctor to sign this portion of the deposition or should 18 we just adjourn? 19 MS. CULP: The only thing, I think it might have 20 be helpful to have him read it is for spelling? Do you feel 21 comfortable that you've gotten the spelling? 22 (Thereupon, an off the record discussion was held.) 23 MR. ROVEN: The only thing I would ask, let me 24 mark the Doctor's file two and three. He can have full use 25 of it, and he can keep it. I just want it marked so I'll CONCANNON & JAEGER 77 WATER PCB-SD0000063548 1 know what it is next tine, Okay? 2 MS. CULP: Okay. 3 (Thereupon, the reporter marked Plaintiff's Deposition 4 Exhibit Nos. 2 and 3 for identification.> 5 6 7 (Signature waived.) 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CONCANNON & JAEGER 78 WATER PCB-SD0000063549 1 2 3 4 NOTORIAL CERTIFICATE 5 - I, BRENDA S. ORSBORN, shorthand reporter and duly commissioned Notary Public, do hereby certify that there 5 came before me at the Raddison Hotel, Ninth Street at Convention Plaza, St. Louis, Missouri, 7 ROBERT EMMET KELLY, M.D., 8 who was by me first duly sworn to testify to the truth and 9 nothing but the truth of all knowledge touching and concerning the matters in controversy in this cause; that 10 the witness was thereupon carefully examined under oath, and said examination was reduced to writing by me; that the 11 signature of the witness was expressly waived; and that this deposition is a true and correct record of the testimony 12 given by the witness. 13 I further certify that I am neither attorney nor counsel for nor related nor employed by any of the parties 14 to the action in which this deposition is taken; further that I am not a relative or employee of any attorney or 15 counsel employed by the parties hereto or financially interested in this action. 16 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand 17 and seal this 2nd day of June, 1988. 18 My commission expires May 28, 1990. 19 20 (Notary Public) 21 22 23 24 25 I i CONCANNON & JAEGER WATER PCB-SD0000063550