Document Yr0bmw8ORnB9dQ9632my3OmgD

-T-h mz:iE il'V/do, at ) Plfti.nt-S.rfn, -V!3- union carsids cor?., 'it; tlo.. Defendants. univnj states restrict coar.-r pc;i 'i.i: ;;.rsvrr:^ (>? n!:v j:;rm:y civil ;;o. 76*-v,;;-!3 no::. geqrgs h, barlow deporition or: itcscos Nicholas wheeler, jh. I1 n A IT 3 C R I ? T of stonocruphi noton of* tbo proceeding tvLon in tbo r.bovo cnbiblou rrjtLn* before FRANK ANTHONY, & Notary Public and CoznrUrea 3-iorthr.nQ Reporter of Haw Jeremy,- ut tbs effi*. cf PITNEY, HARDIN A K7?P, SSQS., 153 H&JIson Avenuo. KurTietourj Rev; Jorcoy, on Friday, February 9> 1379, conraoncins r.t 10:00 A.M. APPEAR A H C E 3: LEVINSON, CONOVER ? AXELROD, R3QS. BY: ALFRED A. LEVINSON, ESQ. and RONALD B. (HViYZEI., ESQ, Attorneys for Plaintiffs . PITNEY, HARDIN HUPP, ESCS. BY: ROBERT L. EOLLINOSNEAD, ESQ. Attorneys for Defendant': MlYMOUi) Sf.MUl.MAN ci idint o ii.'.m* (ft im*; *4 to t.ufil L`V IJ.'AO " ttlXr%,4. WI`*V /tt'N/ V OOIH7 On*; n*\ 7 UCC 070382 1 2 Y.T4 ^ TO VI'TTSnS 3 Roscof Nicholas Vhssier, Jr. 4 By fir. Lcvir*30R 5 6 .7 8 Humbar 9 PW-1 10 EXHIBITS Brrrrlptinn Report of Mr. v/hcaler 11 12 o 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 o 25 A ^ /" Dlyrct I^orwlfl cation 25 UCC 070383 ' _________________________________________________________ ___________ 2 1 o2 R0SC0E NICHOLAS WHEELER, 3 R., rccJ.cl2.nn at 1723 Massey Circle, 3 Charleston, Woot Virginia, 25303, baing first 4 duly sworn, testifies as follows: 5 DIRECT EXAMINATION 6 BY MR. LEVINSON: 7 8 0 Now, Mr. Wheeler, v:e'va all mat before, but for 9 the raccrd lot ma introduce myself again. I'm Alfred 10 Lnvinson and I represent tha plaintiffs In this casa, 11 and coated alongside to my loft Is Mr. Qrayzelft*om my 12 office. o 13 Now wo'ro hero to taka your deposition today 14 . and I know you'ra familiar with tha nature of depositions, 15 having attsndad depositions in Chicago of Dr. Kernow, is 16 that correct? 17 A That's oorreot, 18 Q You knew procicely what's involvod, do you not, or shall I go into it briefly? 19 20 A I think I know rsasonably well what's involved. 21 Q All right. 22 But Just for the purpose of advising you at this moment so that there's no misunderstanding whatever, you 23 o 24 toll us today as a significance of being in a courtroom for all purposes, and you're under oath and whatever y u 25 UCC 070384 / lr> >1 ~r - d'rr.ct ___________ i 3 X toll ua ted ay will to eventually transcribed and put into 2 bco': fornvhich will bs used at the tirio of trial, v/lth 3 the*, sama impact as though you'ra on that stand, under oath, 4 testifying. You understand that? 5 A Yas. 6 Q All right. 7 Now I would like first to discusD with you, . 8 Mr. Wheeler, your background. 9 Toll us if you will what your background is XO in the field of Chemistry. 11 A Irn a graduate B.S. in Chemical Enginesring, Virginia 12 Polytechnic Institute. 13 Q When was that? A I graduated in 14 1943, with a Grade Point Average of 3.4. 15 Q Out of 4 points, is that right? 16 A Yes. 17 Q All right. And that was in 1943? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And you want to Virginia Polytechnic after high 20 school, I assums, is that correct? 21 A No, I attended Marshall University for two years and 22 then transferred to V.P.I, 23 Q Where is Marshall University? 24 A Huntington, West Virginia. Q All riftht. 25 UCC 070385 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- VIv:3 ~r* - direct _________ j 4 1 Mow yn vnit to V.P.I. for how many years? o 2 A For two years. Actually, for IS months. 3 Q Okey. 4 And at V.P.I. you took your Chemistry courses. 5 is that correct? 6 A I took Chemistry both at V.P.I. and at Marshall* 7 0 Mow In the field of Chemistry I assume you took 8 all the basic Chorhistry courses, both Organic enc inorganic 9 Chemistry, correct? 10 A And Physical. 11 Q And Physical? A Yes, and Spaeializcd 12 Chemistry In the polymers. 0 13 q And was there much known about polymrrs in 19'*3? 14 A Not a great deal. 15 q So polymers was really another phase of Organic 16 Chemistry in 1943, is that correct? 17 A I'll ocy yee and no. It's a part of Organic Chemistry, 18 but a very specialized part. 19 Q All right, 20 Now when you ccrne out of V.P.I. In 1943, did you 21 go on doing graduate work In the fiold of Chemistry? 22 A Only courses that I took during my working life. 23 Q Well, let's consider soma of thooe courses for o 24 the moment. 25 In some degre of sequence, starting from your UCC 070386 1 * - - *} *" O ' -- - < -J o o ro i 1 college days on, or Graduation from collage, tell ins what courses you tee': and where. 3 THE WITNESS: I havs to think about this a 4 little bit. 5 HR.- LEVINSON: Well, take your tina. We . 6 have all day. 7 A In general, these courses wera sponsored by the 8 T?cal Institute of Chemical Engineers' Chapter and they 9 dealt with -- to some extent they dealt with ncAsnaaga^ 10 d4#tollAtlpn*he^r^n^ # 11 Q And what? A And lav;. 12 Q All right. by 13 Now you say this course was sponsored/-the 14 Engineering Society? 15 A Yea. 16 Q The Local Engineering Society? 17 A Yes. 18 Q And where were these courses? 19 A They were at Charleston, West Virginia. 20 Q And were theso sporadic lectures or a oorlos of 21. concentra#ted courses? 22 A Thoy did it both ways actually, depending on how we 23 brought in the visiting professors. On occasion ho night want to come in and give a ** concentrated one or two-day cours or, again, if you had 25 t UCC 070387 / - vlr? ct J 6 1 multiple professors, as we did in some cates, thsn these o 2 would bo spaced v/i'chin a week or two at a tims, or howsvsr. 3 Q How whoro were these profeaacra from? 4 A Carnegie, Western University end -- I'm sorry, but 5 I don't remember any others. 6 Q Were the02 courses -- A They were 7 reasonably wall known man In thalr field, but I can't 8 really give you any detail. 9 Q So these were a series of all types of courses, 10 just so wo understand each other, such as law and other 11 phases of Engineering, is that correct? 12 A Yes. to o 13 Q And they naver lsd/any dogreo of any kind, did 14 * they? 15 A No. 16 Q Okay, 17 Are there any othor courses that you took at 18 any universities? 19 A No. 20 Q Now aftor getting out of V.P.I., did you go to 21 work for Union Carbide? 22 A That Is corroct. q VJhat year? 23 A I want to work about 24 March 15, 1943. q And when did you graduate fr m c lleg ? 25 UCC 070388 \ . 1; * 1 A The end of ~.:brur.ry of '3. That's why I 3Eld IS o 2 months. 3 Q This ur.s your first Job, thsn, la that correct? 4 A Yes. 5 CJ Do you have any training of any kind In Industrial 6 Hygiene? 7A In those days Industrial Hygiene wasn't too wall 8 dafined. 9 I workud a year and a half, roughly, as a Safest 10 Apalyot,, v/hich involved certain Ind^trie^diyalapg>~testS. 11 q But do you havs any training In the relationship 12 of Industry to the human body or the effects upon It? o 13 A No formal training. 14 q do y.ou have any training of any kind in th field 15 of modicine? 16 A Again, no formal training. 17 (J Wall, let'a talk about Informal training in th 18 field of modicine. Toll ns what you would consider training 19 in the field of medicine, first of all. 20 A I fasl that whatever I've learned as related to the 21 flold of medicine hao bon learned through tho literature 22 studios which I'va done in keeping track of the various 23 opidomiological toxicity of pathological studies that have o 24 stemmed from tho vinyl chloride problem which arose in 25 the Sixties. UCC 070389 ---- ----- -------- ------- ---------------- ---- -------- -- ;l- r - eft ......... ---------------------4 3 1 0 So, an I understand It, you would read epideni- o 2 ological studios in connection with polvvinvi chloride work. 3 lo that correct? 4 A In connection with vinyl chloride*. 5 Q Vinyl chloride? a Yes. 6 Q And did you try in some way to transfer those .7 Particular studios into what ym were doing? 8 THE i don't really understand 9 tho question. Could you clarify that a little 10 bit? 11 MR. LEVINSON: Yes, Sure, Lot me strike 12 that question and start at another point. o 13 Q At what point in your career, in terms of years. 14 ' would you say you first became conoernod about tho vinyl 15 chloride studies, the epidemiological studios you talked 16 about? 17 A Approximately 18 Z think I stated the exact dates In^BgSBMO* 19 I don't recall if -- 20 Q Is thattho first time in your career with the 21 Union Carbide Copany that you bacane involved in any 22 connection with your work? A 23 Yea. 24 Q And what was it that you read in 1966 in th field of epidemiological studies that brought this to your 25 t UCC 070390 ' * T* ^ t '-vri <+* ' ** --- vV 1 *# * o 2 A This w23 the ev.^nrit^zT. reported by Ooodrlch In their 3 plant of the app-oarance of what wt3 termed A.1 4 Q Were you involved with Union Carbide from the 5 time you first w:nt. to work for then in 19-3 vjith the 6 polyvinyl chloride manufacturing phase? 7 A ' I wt ould lik to spread that out a little bit. 8 Q All right, go ahead. 9 A . About 1946 I ptarted work in the netotlOIF^dl^fffrrizatioi 10 plant, and I went from that to what is known as an Area 11 Supervisor, v:h.oro you have nultiplo plant operations. And X ultimately became what is known an a 12 And my first -- let's 13 see. My first Production Manager Job vra3 suspension 14 and %o-called 15 and this was a Union Carbide process and not the Pechiney 3t. Qobain. 16 How 1st no sse. Then there was the 4tB&i!s%8ie^ 17 PVC opsi'ation end -- than tho Job was reshuffled, you know, 18 and I kept tho dispersion process and then went into the 19 polyethylene oxides, polyvinyl alkyl others, polyvinyl 20 acetates. 21 So, in effect, I have experience in all the 22 PVC processing, with the exception of 23 Q So, in effect, hove you new told ua a.11 your o 24 Jobs th?t you've had with Union Carbide from the day you 25 UCC 070391 .... ... ''"vr'i ?r - 5ir?et -- '1 ' -- - - - i. -ij 10 1 first started with them, up until the present time? 2 A Not really. 3 Q All right. 4 Juat so I have this picture of what your career 5 has been with Union Carbide from 1943 to the present date, 6 cuppooe you tell us now, starting from that particular point 7 up to the present, v;hat your various functions have been. 8 THE WITNESS! I have to make the dates 9 approximate. 10 MR. LEVINSON: Of course. 11 A All right. 12 I'll start, it off as -- I started off as a Gao 13 14 ' Analyst for about a year and a half, than I transferred from there and became a Production Engineer in a al&esfie* 15 monomer plant. 16 Q Well, as a Gas Analyst your function was to 17 examine gases through soma sort of equipment, is that 18 correct? 19 A That is correct. 20 q What sort of equipment did you use to oxarain 21. ga30S? A We used -- it's called fractionation techniques. This 22 was prior to the invention, of course, of the chromatograph. 23 q And what gasss t:ero you inspecting? 24 A This plant I was working in used ethanol and b nzene 25 UCC 070392 ' "Ur - ',4--r:ct J 11 1 ns s b3l3 for tho rLr.ufs.cturt- of butadiene and styrene for tl 2 JTV.bfc`2? p*TC'rI>f*P* 3 So we wore dealing with ethylene, acid aldehyde, 4 hydrogen ar.d -- wall, of course, the butadiene Is a gas 5 boiling slightly btlow tht freezing point of water. 6 Q And you wars merely Inspecting the ganss through 7 soir.9 piece of equipment to determine, I assume, the 8 quantitative evaluation of that particular eras, that 9 correct? 10 A That is correct. 11 X would also so out in the plant and sample 12 various vents to determine losses, concantrations of the o 13 ventsmd that kind of thing. 14 Q So you did that for approximafcsly a year and a 15 half? 16 A Yea. 17 Q And what was the Job you went to from there? 18 Q Now styrene monomer is manufactured, X assume, 19 20 from corns othor chemicals, is that correct? 21 A That is correct. q Was it a olossd system of manufacturing? 22 23 A Yes. Q So what wan your function in that particular 24 department? 25 UCC 070393 *.*.. r - dir ct A. I prcvid\-d technical sunpcrt for the department. Q You did no reacr-.rch in that area? A A little. H Q But you v:?re primarily in production? ; A Y03. o Q Were you in charge of that production? r A X was not In charge of that production. n Q You were juat a chemist working in production? 'j A I was an engineer working in production. 10 Q I'm oorry. All right. 1 1 You wars a Chemical Engineer in production, is 51* that correct? Q 13 A Yea. Q Now how long did you have that Job? ]' A About a year. 1<> Q And thiswas whore? A At tho Instituto of Waat Virginia, which is -- 3Y in Q Now whore did you go from thoro? What job did l o you have next? fO A I transferred from tharo to tha Production Engineer i'l in ths r#t** Q Okay Now this is the first time you've coma in contact IM with polyvinyl chloride in the U.C.C. operation, is that correct? UCC 070394 : 1 -J* -- r 5. 13 1 A Yoa, that in c^-nat. Tknt vea in roughly. 2 Q 19'!5? a Yes. 3 Q How again you wore in the production area of it, 4 corroct? 5 A That'3 correct, 6 Q And whore were you working in this plant? 7 By the way, what plant was it? 8 A I operated the Polymerisation Unit. 9 Q Y^hcrs? A At South Charleston. 10 Q Now again you were in the production phase and 11 not in the research phase, is that correct? 12 A Tn that sense, yos. o 13 Q Nov; Yfh&t did this plant in Charleston do in 14 connection with the PVC? A ___ 15 16 oc 17 18 19 20 Q All right. 21. Mow at that particular time, aa I said bof re, 22 you were only concerned with the manufacturing and 23 polymerizing of PVC? 24 A (Witness nods in the affinr.utiv ,) 25 UCC 070395 'Irit'ilir - direct j m 1 o2 l!H. LEVINSON: You havo to answer yes or no. oo this gentleman (indicating the Court Reportcr) 3 can put it on the record. You can't shake your 4 head. 5 mis. WITNESS: Vail, I didn't realize you. 6 wore asking mo a queatlon. Excugq me. 7 ITR. LEVINSON: All right. Lot mo rephrase 8 the question. 9 0 The function of the factory there or the plant 10 there was to polymerize PVC, the vinyl chloride monomers, 11 is that correct? 12 A By the solution process. o 13 Q Okay. 14 * Was thora any research being done in that plant 15 while you were there? 16 THE WITNESS: Would you define "research" 17 for me? 18 MR. LEVINSON: Well, as I am phrasing the 19 question the word "research" concerns itself 20 with any toxic elements of PVC or VCM. It's 21 that typo of research. 22 A Well, that type research wan carried on at the Kollon 23 Institute Fellowship for Industrial Hygiene, which was o 24 established by Union Carbide. MR. LEVINSON: Well, my question was 25 UCC 070396  l,'h c " ] n* _ 4 vn* w- * . v-f 15 1 o2 rpcclflc." lly directed to whether anything was bring <?cro there r.t that plant. 3 MR. HOLLINGSHEAD: Could we establish a tins 4 frams ? 5 I think it night have cotton loot in the. 6 cerice of questions. 7 MR. LEVINSON: Yes. 8 Q You started thi particular Job in 1S46. is that 9 correct? 10 A Right. 11 Q Now how Ions did you work: at that Job? 12 A About six years. o 13 Q So for six years, from 1946 to approximately 14 ' 1952, you were involved with the polymerization of polyvinyl 15 chloride, correct? 16 A I was directly involved in the unit operation. 17 Now lot me clarify this a little bit: At that 18 point I became Department Read, which meant I had charge f the whole plant. 19 20 Q At what point was that? Uhnt year? 21. A Approximately 1952. Q So at the end of your six years there you b come 22 Department Ksad? 23 A Ycc. o 24 Q You becstno Deportment Head of the Manufacturing 25 T UCC 070397 _J 1 Unit, correct? 2 A Right. 3 Q Now your only concern at that particular point 4 was getting production out of tills polymor -- PVC__o rrsct? 5 A No. - 6 Q All right. 7 Did ycuhavo any concern at that point with 8 research? 9A \,o dad use this plant to develop new prcduots and to 10 generally upgrade the operation. 11 Q Did Union Carbide have a Research Unit at the 12 Charleston Plant when you were there? A 13 Yes. 14 Now wait a ninute. X cannot tell you exactly 15 how much they did with regard to toxicity, which is your 16 concern, but there was a Research Unit at the South Charleston Plant. 17 Q All right. 18 And what did that unit consist of? Doctors? 19 20 Engineer's? Chsnists? What? 21 A I couldn't really give you a specific description. It \7c.3 generally Doctors of Chemistry, although 22 there wore others involved as wall. 23 And, liice X soy, this is getting a little far 24 bf.cK and I can't give you anything more specific than that. 25 UCC 070398 O i Q o .... ..... ....... ..... - - / V';-" - V"!' - rir"' ct jj r 1 Q -Ml ri-ht. 17 -- -- ----------------------- 2 Tid yo- !:;.vr. c.r:y M.D.*?. -- radical Sectors -- 3 In the Research Unit at that plant? 4 A Only ?% regards the fact that wa had a 5 Pl*Bjtertl!JE!temrW>;f.th a 2^-hour Dispensary, and va dll 6 hacaaJtidaMMdta^^ 7 Q That was for teefttelfttea^Mi^Misos Primarily. this 8 doofcor on tbs? pranks.**, ic that correct? 9 A , 7Tii > 10 Q And that was In X$Jg2t' 11 A Yes. 12 Q Now in 1552 you assured control or you be cam* 13 Mc.nc.cor cr Superintendent of that production operation. Is 14 that correct? 15 A Yss. 16 Q And how ler.s did you stay on there In that 17 capacity? 18 A Again, it has to ho approximate. I'd say about four 19 cr five years. 20 Q And still in charts of cettins out production 21. in tha plant, correct? 22 A And dcvolopir.s now products in production. 23 Q All right. Tliat would ta'rc us up to I960 come tine, is ^ 25 that right? UCC 070399 #''t '1 VI < ' ^ x A Yes. o2 I hops this cenoo cut oven. Yss. i r 3 X knew re 're working nor?what In the raaln of 4 conjecture with do.tag, 5 .'n'.'nOLLIkOCirXAD: I night Interject that 6 I thought that that night bring U3 up to 1955 7 or 1957. 8 THu WITNESS: You' re cori'oct. 9 Q So you etayad thoro until 1956 or 1957, In 10 your capacity as a Superintendent? 11 A Yes. 12 Q And what did you do after that? o 13 A Then I be cane what is known as a Departmnt Hoad at 14 Large. 15 Q What does that nean? 16 A It naant that I handled special projects for -- well, 17 lot r.a define what "special projects" is. 18 MR. LEVIHSONj That's ray next question. 19 Q What la a special project and what special 20 project did ;oi handle while you were there? 21 A Okay. 22 X vrorkod on worked on the 23 o 24 v;hlch was a mainiihilwnii niu 1 ilai i>1r " and then there was 25 another new operation there that I don't rncall at the UCC 070400 1. mcn...nt. 2 Q All ri ~ht . 3 Now for how many yearn did you occupy this Job as 4 Departrrjnt Head at Largs? 5 A Oh, about a yror or two. 6 Q And what did you do after that? 7 A Then I b3car.a Area Supervisor, which meant I x'oturned 8 to the plant and tool: ov:/ the supervision of thw 9 TYCMaperfetion, the polyvinyl acetates and the polyethylene 10 oxide. 11 Q And this was 1953 or thereabouts, X imagine, is 12 that correct? 13 A Approximately. 14 Now if you really want to pin theca dates down. 15 I can give you a complete list. We'll have to go back 16 through all the records and sort it out. 17 HR. LEVINSON: No, no. I just told you a 18 moment ago that I don't intend to pin you down. 19 I'm Just caking these questions to get some 20 idea of the yoar3. I don't expect total 21 accuracy out of you. 22 Q Now you ware cent back to take over the super23 vision of the entire plant, correct? 24 A Well, a large portion of the plant. 25 The South Charleston Plant, itself, is a multi- UCC 070401 tj 1 product cpi.ratic-n end it for about a mils or so 2 t-lonc ths river n-.d i.e on nn inland l:i the river itself. 3 also. 4 Q You '.icr" In charge of supervision of part of that 5 plant, cermet? 6 A Y&o. 7 Q' Mot tha ntira plant? 8 A Ho. 9 0 And tho supervision of what part of that plant 10 wars you in charts of? Tell me that once mors. 11 A f<jBi^l:^hlorida~polynvir^Katioh, by tha solution 12 process. This i3 the polyvinyl acetates, that is both G 13 tha solid renin and latoxea, polyethylene oxide and 14 ' polyvinyl butyral., 15 Q Pour different products were under your control? 16 A Yes. 17 Q And as Superintendent your primary consideration 18 was production, correct? 19 A Yes. 20 q Now how Ions did you stay on in that cspaclty? 21 How many years? 22 A I would oay about two years. 23 Q And what did you do next? 24 A Then I oirnply rrot mora work to do by tha fact that 25 I took ovrr, and In addition I took over the dispersion UCC 070402 1 re 3 in process end the vinyl chloric? monomer producing 2 facility. 3 Q At th: sans plust? 4 A Yes. 5 Q How leny did you work with that .Job? 6 A A year cr tv;c. 7 Q Still involved in the field of production? 8 A Yes. 9 Q What did you do next? 10 A Then I became Producticn Manager for the sueoansion^ 11 Bing. 12 Q Still in Charlotte? A Still in 13 Charleston. 14 Q Charleston, rather. Sorry. 15 A And at this point in tine I vras, you mirht say. 16 somewhat divorced from the plant in that I had multi-plant 17 dutio3 at the time. The suspension plant was in Texas i 18 City at that tins and tho bulk polymerisation plant was in 19 Texas City. The dispersion process, however, was in 20 South Charleston. 21. Q So you had two processes in Texas City and on 22 process coins in South Charleston? 23 A Yob. 24 Q And you wore in chsrvs of production In both 25 those plants, correct? UCC 070403 / ~ I '.i* -- ' *. ct 2? 1A YC3. o2 0 An* whut would you do? Would you fly buck unci 3 forth botwosn tho two plants? 4 A (V/itr;~ss nods In the 'affirmative.) 5 Q Your msy-or Is yss? 6 A Yea. Excuse mo. 7 Q Okay. 8 How Ions were you in charge of this Joint enter- 9 prise? 10 A I'd say a little over a year. Then we reorganised 11 slightly and I moved from that to Production Manager of 12 th dispersion and polyvinyl acetates and polyethylene G 13 oxide. 14 * Q And whore was that located? 15 A That was all in Charleston. 16 Q How long did you Gtey in charge of that? 17 A Again I'll have to -- a couple of years. 18 Q Still involved in production, correct? 19 A Yes. 20 Q How what happened next after that? 21 A I became what was rather vaguely defined as a "Technical 22 Superintendent, 23 Q Well, where did you work first as a Technical 24 Superintendent? O A Primarily in South Charleston, although I was concerned 25 UCC 070404 ' i :."- lvr r ct 1 prc-b 3 rrs thrt drrvslopsd throughout both Charleston 23 O 2 end Tc?yf3 City. 3 Q About what year wac this, approximately? 4 A I'd say roughly 1970. 5 Q 19707 .. A 7ss. 6 Q And were you still at that point concerned with 7 production oa a Technical Superintendent? Ia that xfhat 8 you said -- "Technical Sur>srntsndont"? Was that your title? 9 10 A Yes. 11 Q And you wore still concerned with production 12 in that capacity, correct? A No. 13 Actually, aa I mentioned before, BsQwrt&aanSi8K> 14 .and 15 this portion of my Job continued to grow as time want on, 16 and so that 17 18 <J Well, let me go back, Mr. Wheeler. 19 In 1966 your title was what? 20 A Production Manager. 21 Q And you were in charge of production at that 22 point? 23 A No. Excuce me. I told you wrong. 24 O In 1966 I was an Araa. Superintondent. 25 UCC 070405 tI o o o , t/h.-cler - direct 2H 1 Q 01:ay. 2 You nn Are a Superintendent end you w?re 3 stationed In Charleston, correct? 4 A Yes. 5Q 6 title? And what uwre ycur duties than? What vies your 7A 8 Area Superintendent. Q All right. 9 10 then? Now what was the Area Superintendent's function 11 A He was concerned with the production of nultiplG 12 unit operations. 13 Q At that particular point, as Aroa Superintendent 14 * with multiple unit operations under your control, you wsro 15 in ohargs of the n&nufaetaring procesoes, correct? l6 A Right. 17 Q Which ones? A I think I'd like to - 18 if you're going to hold roe to this on specifics, then I'd 19 like to have the Reporter read back to me what I said before. 20 HR. LEVINSON; As a matter of fact, Mr. Wheelc 21 nay I further tell you, by way of assistance. 22 that you can refer to your report in front of 23 you if it's going to help you. 24 Ao a matter of fact, I suggest that we have your entire report marked for identification at 25 t UCC 070406 i M.2 time rr.i you. cun refer tc It. 2 Murk It fcr id-, r.tiri cation. 3 (The above mentioned report of Mr. Wheeler 4 la received and narked Exhibit PVf-1 fcr 5 identification.) 6 MR. LEVINSON: Off the record. .7 (Diceusoion off the record.) 8 MR, LEVINSON: 3sck on the record. 9 Q No;? my previous question concerned itself with 10 your duties in 1966 as an Area Superintendent. Vlas that 11 your title? 12 A 160 . 13 Q And they were primarily duties concerned with 14 manufasturinc processes? 15 A l6 Correct. Yos. Q You were not involved In research at'all at that 17 time, were you? 18 A Not in the terms that you define "research." 19 Q In other words, health research. 20 A As I mentioned earlier, 1966 was the first time I 21 fcseans actively involved in health research. 22 Q Now how lonfc vers you ths Area Superintendent? 23 A 24 About tvro years. Q Now you said before that this is the first 25 time you became involved with health research, is that I UCC 070407 1 r __ at 1 right? o 2A Yds. 2C 3 Q Vlhet health research did you conduct? 4 A Tha acrco3tcolyol3 problon was brought to the 5 attention of the'Occupational Health Cemittes of the 6 Manufacturing Chonict3 Association -- MCA -- who called 7 a moating In Detroit, X think, and I was, as the mo3t 8 responsible and moat available man at the tine, tent to 9 Detroit In company with our Plant Physician to hear what 10 they had to say. 11 Q Who was your Plant Physician at the time? 12 13 Q And Dr. Hull was a treating physician, or was he 14 a research nan? 15 A He w&3 an * - 16 Q Do in that capacity as industrial physician ho 17 was in ch&rga of actually treating ar.d the general health 18 of the enployess, correct? 19 A Correct.. 20 And it*3 our practice to conduct cats surveys. 21. For example. If you have two or thros cases of 22 a guy who gats one finger turning blue, than that physician 23 will try to assemble all the data he can on thoss people o 24 and then go into the plant and try to Identify what might 25 have caused It. UCC 070408 ' *r - 'IV.-al: 21. 1 So It'o e. -- you could ecy thcrs la sons United o 2 research dene by a read indue4, riv.1 physician. 3 Q So t!io rossareh that Dr. Hull was doing, 1C any, 4 v:aa merely attempting to correlate any health problem 5 with any existing situations at llu plant? 6 A YS. 7 Q All right. 8 Dufc ho did no actual msdieal-chenical research, 9 did he? Do you understand vrhat I mtan by "mcdlcal-chcmlcal 10 research"? 11 A Well, I'n not quits sura even yet. 12 Q Okay. o 13 You ir.nar. you're noteuro what "msdical-chenieal 14 research" la, as of this moment, is that right? 15 A I'm not euro what your definition of It ic, versus 16 what mine lo. 17 Q Well, Doctor, what la your definition of it? 18 A In my opinion it covers the whole gamut of the type 19 of thins that I JuEt mentioned that Hull did. It covers 20 cpldsniology, it covers so-called bioassays, it covers 21 the study of the metabolism material and -- 22 Q Does it cover live animal testing? 23 A That is what I wa3 thinking of in the bioassays. 24 o 25 Q All right. Well, did Dr. Hull do that? UCC 070409 i 1 A H- did tha one pert, which is what; you might call o 2 ease fcuuif.:5, ao well as very limited cpldemiological-typo 3 studies. 4 Q Okay. 5 Co that-you've told us that in ycur Job ao 6 Area Superintendent in 1966 or thereabouts you want to 7 sons neetin,<36 of the various chemical plants, and I think 8 veu referred to It as th Manufacturing Chemist- Association, 9 the group that conducted this meeting? 10 A Right. 11 Q And that was your first exposure or first 12 involvement with the Koalth Program? Q 13 A Yea. 14 Q Okay. 15 And at that particular moating there was some 16 Uiccu3sion of the acroosteolysis problem? 17 A Correct. 18 Q And was that yjir first exposure to a health 19 problem there at that mooting? 20 A Not my first exposure to a health problem, no. 21 Q All right. 22 Was it determined that this acroosteolysis was 23 Involved with PVC production? 24 A It was involved in tho 9.?. Goodrich Plant. O 25 Q Dut did it come to light in connection with PVC UCC 070410 J 1 prc. ducklcn? o 2 A It tppecr'd to. 3 Q And you cams back from that masting and continusd 4 on in your Job r.*; Area Supsrlnte-r.dsr.t correct? 5 A I err.? back from that mar-tin?: with the knowledge that 6 vre had hired the University of Michigan, the group on 7 Occupational Health, X believe it is, to make an industry 8 wide epidemiological studv and we wars going tc have to 9 provide them with records. 10 Q You cay "we." Are you talking about Union Ccrbido 11 or the Manufacturing Chemists Association? 12 A Both. o 13 Naturally, I was primarily concerned with what 14 < I was going to have to do with regard to getting records 15 together and making sure that the University of Michigan 16 people got the proper information that they required to 17 make this study, 18 Q Okay. 19 Now when was thi3 done with the University of 20 Michigan? In other words. Union Carbide and MCA got 21 together and hirod the University of Michigan. Now what 22 year wa3 that? 23 A Approxlintely 1966 or early 1967. o 24 Q And wr.s thl3 after the meeting was held? 25 A Yes. * UCC 070411  , *. "1 " .# -A 5 ,^ ` *N ,,W 4 30 1 '"'hr dosioirr. wvi rode st the meeting to hire tho;.i 2 on3 the actual ccr-tract r.cr-ctiotior.c -- whrn the contract 3 'was obtained I don't r3ally knew. 4 Q When you 3ay ''hiro", In ethsr words, money was 5 glvon to tbs University of Michigan to perform this 6 particular research, corract? 7 A Right. 8 Q And who provided the money to the University of 9 Michigan? 10 A It va.3 provided by voluntary subscript ions from the 11 various industry pertieipents. 12 Q Tho various industries boing members of 13 MCA, correct? 14 A Ko, this was e section of MCA. 15 Q And which section of MCA was it? 16 A At that time it was an informal group of people who 17 manufactured vinyl chloride rosins and vinyl chloride 18 monomers. 19 Q Can you tell ua the names of those various 20 corporations? 21 A I can give you some examples, but I can't r3tlly giv 22 you all of them. 23 Q Well, give us soma examples. o 24 A Dow, B.F. Goodrich, Qoodyear, Allioi Chemical. 25 Q Okay. UCC 070412 / l'* ' ' r.r - <:i r --------------1 1 2'-'- -fhnn you c.cr.o br.r.l; from thnt mooting In o 2 IjSC you continued on in your Job as Production Suporlntcnticr. 3 co to apeak, correct? 4 A Yaa. 5 Q And how-.long did you stay on that Job7 6 A I think I abated before that It was until approximately 7 1970. No, no, excusa me. I ballsve 1 stayed about two 8 years, roughly. In 1958 I became Production Manager and 9 than I becans Technical Superintendent In 1970. 10 Kamosbar, I said bafora that I still qualify the 11 fact that I can't really, without digging through the 12 records, got all these dates straight. o 13 Q All right. 14 So for 1968 to 1970 you ware Production 15 Superintendent? 16 A Technical Superintendent. 17 Q Technical Superintendent? A Yes. 18 Q But still Involved with the production of these 19 various products ws talksd about earlier, correct? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Okay. 22 Now from 19.66, whan you went to that costing, 23 to 1970 did you havs any other contacts with any health 24 problems in the polyvinyl chloride or vinyl chloride o 25 monomers? UCC 070413 r< 'V * -' 1 ' **, ' * - o4i. . *?;> 1 a v:- -- o2 1 :;zt 1 a of * you. 3 A All right. 4 1 fellc-weii the tcrocsiyolyaia study to its 5 6 Q Well, how did you follow it? 7 A Thors* wera progress reports and we had a final 8 discussion of the report in 1959. 9 Q In other wcrd3, u3 tha University of Michigan 10 did studios on it, they would sond you sene Information 11 of whit they vre: j doing sr.d what they found, is that 12 cornsct7 13 A Ya-s. 14 Q And you would read these particular sheets? 15 A Well, they would cone back and say, "Would you pleass 16 go back and chrclc this man's x-rays," shell we say. 17 Q And you would havs somc-cnr at the plant do that 18 and send it back to them, correct? 19 A Yes. 20 Q How beyond that ons study from 1965 to 1970, 21 while you w-sre in your various Jobs thera, was there any- 22 thing c. lie that you personally did cr wers Involved with S3 in th'? I.'nlth Frograr.3 in connection with PVC or VCM, o 24 besides this or..* project? 25 A I did get a t?3t dsvsloptd which would permit ua to UCC 070414 fT t 1 r'^ct *3? ;!?r. the rXr;.r.t conc.}r`_.mb ton cf vinyl chloride as low aj 50 ppm. slow boar in mini th*-t Carbide 13 concerned with ifce people and with their health. X wa3 concerned with thoae -- frankly, t'li o:-opl-j vr'jo wgrksd fer me wars my friend: I fait any time that there appeared to be a problem, I wanted to Know about It and I wanted to do something about It, wMch Is why I felt if there w*rs a connection with *cro- ooteolysis, ws wore under a g.ensral directive to minimise exposure to any materials. Cl All right. So at soma point between 19S6 and 1970 you say you developed a test to -- A No, not ms personally. I had one developed. Q All right. You say you had one developed. Did you put someone to work on It? A Yae. Q Who did you put to work on It? A I believe at that time it was N.H. 1 really couldn't be hold to that. Q And you said to hin, "Develop a tost so ws can determine ppn of VC*I in the atmosphere / correct? A I told him that we wanted a test which I could take into the plant and do cn e routine basin, and admittedly UCC 070415 1 it thr* time you could determine vinyl chloride much o 2 loir ? ir: r. lit or'M cry c.-tun. 3 But what I wante-d wea cr.a that you could usa to 4 Go chock the contents of t. vessel or check the work space 5 atmosphere. ..... 6 Q About what year was that, that you directed 7 someone -- namely Mr. Ketchem -- to produce come sort of 8 device for you? 9 A About 1969, I guess. 10 Q All right. 11 How did he eons forth with such a device? 12 A Yss. 0 13 Q How ions did it take him to do that? 14 A It seemed like forever, but it was six months. 15 Q Okay. 16 Wow what happened to you in 1970, as far as 17 your relations with Union Carbide are eonesrnod? 18 MR, KOLLIUGSJIEAD: What did he do in 19 1970? 20 HR. LEVIUSOH: Yes, from 1970 on what did 21 he do. 22 MR. liOLLIUCSllEAD: Okay. 23 A That was roughly the day I think I stated I became a o 24 Technical Superintendent and I becans involved with 25 oconcrdc studies, process evaluations, hoalth problems -- UCC 070416 o to / ' ' - 1 J1 ,, ' ^ ; rtj 1 Vo r.r ~ " <* -- a-.-1 Jrr* t* < * -- well, thp 7: ehr.icf-.l r.::-In Trft o'" r.n internal consultant, 3 eo to BppfCl:. 4 0 Now you*vo boon a Technical Superintendent from 5 1970 to the rroren.tr.:''to? 6 A Noll, right new of course I'm Tflllii ll'1" 7 8 Q And how long were you Technical Superintendent? 9 Until whet data? 10 A Up until the first of 1978. 11 Q So rourhly from 1970 to 1973 you were$S5^lftS&eH 12 Spamyllif^SiiggailnvolYcd with all the various functions you o 13 Just told us about, correct? 14 * A Yes. 15 Q And during that period you mentioned one of your l6 functions was health problems of a sort or something along 17 those lines, correct? 18 A Correct. 19 Q Whr.t did you mean by that? 20 A As I mentioned in my report, made bis -- he 21 presented his paper in Houston, snd I bellevo that was in 22 1971. He -- no, no, I bog your pardon. That was^p^^ 23 Now this paper of eoursa foeucad our attontion on a f!.ct th hfl hod *n -- nnnnl nn mii -i`**l**> o 8,1 25 ** UCC 070417 1 period and th^rr1 wr.n concern about It. 2 The Oecupn^icr.rl Health Committ*, of which 3 Carbide was a participant, hod viola cono to the Unltad 4 Status snd they discussed his work with him and then they 5 had contact"! through Sclvay, *>t els, a Dr. LoFovra, who 6 coma and talked to the Informal group of vinyl chloride 7 monomer PVC producers, and It wa3 at that mooting that I 8 got -- that the daci&ion was mads to oat up and do long- 9 term toxicity studios on tha vinyl chlorlds and monomer 10 exposures. 11 Q Did you set them up yearsslf? 12 A At that matting I ended up being Chairman of tha Committee to take car of this. I did have help from 13 14 other industry people. 15 Q All right. 16 How Just so I have this thing straight, you say Dr. Viola cane to Anarlca. Did ha come at the request of 17 18 Union Carbide Company or of tha Manufacturing ChGmicts Association? 19 20 A Primarily tha Occupational Health aroup.. The Manufacturing Chainlets Association is not 21 a olosoly knit corporation. 22 Q Well, I'm looking at your report, and on Page 19, 23 the third paragraph, it says, "The Manufacturing Chemists 24 Association invltod Dr. Vlia to the United States to 25 *! ` *1 ^ ,T - * f 4* *i 1 2.1...- 2 V -'J 2 corr ret? ' in rrcr.tsr detail." Is that 3A 4 Yrs. O r.0 MCA. Invit'd hin across, correct? 5A *- *+ 6 Q And you, in your capacity as a Technical Suporin- 7 tend ant o f Union Carbide, were sent by Union Carbide t 8 r?n to Dr. Viola sp-s!:, correct? 9 A No, I was not. 10 Q What was that? A X wa3 not sent 11 Wo sc-r.t a radical win, . ~~12 - Q So you didn't hear Viola yourself? Q 13 A No. 14 ' Q But, anyway, did you set a copy of Dr. Viola's 15 report? 16 A Yas. 17 Q N'ow did you discuss that report with anybody? 18 A Yas. 19 Q Who? A With our medical people and 20 with my superiors who vfsre, S3 I say, soT.swhat concerned 21 about this. Wg3 this simply a fluke? We were quite sure 22 we had nobody vs wera oxposinp to 30,000 ppm -- but h w 23 far down did thjproblem extend? 9 24 0 You say in 1067 or thereabouts Mr. Ketcham devise a plan for tcstir.TM the ppm of PVC In the atmosphere of tho 85 UCC 070419 , .a - -y.~ -ct________ 1 plant, s A Yea. 3 i'.o, no, It wee In 1969. 4 Q Ir. 1369? A Right. 5 6A Q ' fr. VJe'r spoke In 1970, correct? Yea. 7 Q And that figure, 30 PPn -- 8 A That's 30,000 ppm. 9 Q That f5. gttrs ---- cams Into being 10 for the first tint then? 11 A Yss. 12 0 !Iovr did you have reading of your cw> from your 13 plant in Charleston taksn by Mr. Xetcham or by someone in 14 the plant, readings of your concentration of VC in the 15 atmosphere? 16 A Yea. 17 Q Do you have records that wore made end kept of 18 what the findings were? 19 A I think they're there. 20 Q Were records nsdo regularly from that time on, 21 records of VC in the atmosphere at your plant? 22 A I'd have to say with reasonable regularity. It was 23 not on a fixed schedule. 24 Q All right. So new that I have this total picture, your 25 J f UCC 070420 **^*"'1^7* (j 1 ** A ^ 1 health investigatory exposure In your Job a3 Technical o 2 Eup'rrvl.ror then v?.e3 to got Dr. Viola's report, and before 3 that it was involved with the Michigan study, eorroct? 4 A Yes. 5 0 And .you war involved with merely reading 6 the various reports that cams back from these two sources? 7 A Yes. , ': 8 MR. HCLLTTinnHEAD: So that we can understand 9 your question, that question was directed only to 10 hia personal experience, is that right? 11 MR. LEVINSON: Yes. 12 o 13 14 MR. ROLLINGSHEAD: All right. Just so wa all understand that. MR. LEVINSON: Correct. 15 MR. 1I0LLINGSHEAD: All right. 16 Q Now you, yourself, did not undertake during your 17 years there any reeearch or direct research to bo taken 18 by Union Carbide Company in connection with PVC toxicity 19 by way of experimentation of any kind? 20 A Wall, I can't say that I, myself, undertook it. 21 I know thora was a fair amount of skin sensitiza 22 tion and the30 kinds of tssts dono at Mellon on resins. 23 MR. LEVINSON: Well, I want to go beck to 24 what you personally know or saw. 25 In fact, whan I aak you a question, Mr. Wheels UCC 070421 /Vi'c^r - r'frrcfr j<q 1 O2 cf what yc.i know tcok place rtrurally secondhand. ik"n 1*31 dlr"ct it to you along there lir.rrr. 3 But I'm tryIns to direct It to whet you 4 personally did cr knew. 5 TiX^vi^::ncGi All rirbt. 6 Now ray I ask you to make one correction? 7 MR. LEVINSON: Go right ahead. 8 TUB WITNESS: I mentioned "Kon Anderson." 9 It should have bean JfrMaM^fanfcimrrib 10 MR. LEVINSON: All right. Pins. 11 It's really not too Important. 12 THE WITNESS: Wall, I -- o !3 Q Nov; you vor-a this Technical Superintendent in 14 ' charge, really, and you wore concerned primarily with 15 production up until ths ysar 1970, correct? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Okay. 18 Would it havo bsen your function to direct somo- 19 body to do research on PVC toxicity? 20 A In light of the way we operated, yes. 21 Q All right. 22 Did you do that? A Mot at that 23 time. Not until I had hoard ths discussion from o 2* 25 ot els. So at that point we would bo in November of 1971. / UCC 070422 / . 1 :r - 1 o2 0 All right. Now you wore Technical Cuparintsndcnt until 1970? 3 A I was Technical Superlntand^nt. 4 Q Until what year? a Oh, I would 5 say roughly 1970 or- after 1970 I was Technical Supcrintan6 dont. 7 Q For how many years were you Technical Supsrlntan8 lent? 9 A Until, roughly, a year ago. 10 0 All right. That's right, 1973. I think you 11 told ua that earlier. 12 Mow during this entire period from 1970 to 1978, o 13 what precise training did you have of any kind, outside 14 * of Union Carbide, to PVC or VCM and the toxicity of these 15 products? 16 A It mostly consisted of what I read. 17 Thera is an interchange of safety and health 18 information betwaan th9 various companies through such 19 agonciee as MCA, and if you're interested in your people 20 you make sure that you road these in the hope that you can 21. prevent accidents or health problems in the downstroam. 22 Q All right. 23 Now did you over, for example, go to tno University o 24 of rtichigan and discuss with the people there -- who were 25 supposedly doing research on behalf of MCA into PVC -- what UCC 070423 V.Y . 7: r* - dir* c'c l't 1 their findings v-'crc, what they vzve de-ins cr anythin;*, along o 2 those line3? 3 A . Only at tha final report date, which was rcughly 1969. 4 Q And you nevarvent there to discuss fcho report 5 with anyone? You-iuat road their report, is that correct? 6 A I discussed it with them at the meeting. 7 Q In other words, you -- what nesting are you 8 ts lkin g ch out now? 9 A ' They didn't put the date on it, except to say it v?g.s 10 in 1969. 11 Q In 1969 you're tolling uc there was a meeting 12 somewhere. Where was the rioting? 13 A That one, I believe, was in Cleveland. 14 Q And under whor.3 auspices was this resting held? 15 A It was, again, under the Occupational Health Committee 16 of the Manufacturing Chemists Association. 17 Q Okay. 18 And who was present at this nseting from the 19 University of Michigan? 20 A 21 Q And was there Eny particular paper promulgated 22 by the University of Michigan in connection with their 23 findings? 24 A Yob, quite a long report. 25 Q Do you have that report? UCC 070424 i >** ^ ''4 1 A . Yes. o2 Q Where is it? A IVo In ny fll^g 3 In Charleston. 4 0 Could you product that report for us? 5 A Suraly. 6 0 Now did you do anything also In connection with 7 any toxicity problens during those years, up to 1978, 8 hAides these two eoleodoa that we've tallcAd about? 9 MR. H0LLIUQ3HEAD! You said *1978." Did 10 you mean 1978? 11 MR. LSVIN30M: Yes, I mean 1978. 12 A Yes. o 13 Q What else? What also did you do? 14 1 A As I mentioned before, I became Chairman of this 15 committee. I did got the group together and wo laid out 16 a Research Program, and through various moans -- Including 17 sending Dr. Dinnan to Europe -- we tried to find out what 18 the European people were doing in terms of vinyl chloride research, in that wo did know that based on Viola's work 19 20 that they had started a Research Program' of their own 21 and we wanted to not do the samo thing on two sides of the 22 ocean. Vs wanted to be sure that there v;ore differences t 23 o 24 end this was oo that vs would learn more. Q All rlrht. 25 V"..- 44 1 V.*hClt done? 2A Aa I r.'.Titicn-i lr. r.y rr.port, we art up a program In- 3 volvlng an cpliirmSol nstudy, industry-wide, on the 4 effects of vinyl chlorido. We also 3t up a plan to study 5 the of vinyl chloride. 6 Q v/hat. year was that? 7 A Our Initial committee meeting was In December, and I 8 think wa made cur propcoo.1 then. 9 Q December of when? A Dacomber of 10 1971. 11 Q What nesting are you talking about now? 12 A This was the meeting of the group that was commissioned 13 by the vinyl chloride TVC producers, and that was the 14 mooting which we had hare in November to come up with a 15 program, a Research Program, and to obtain sponsorship 16 and get it off the ground. 17 Q Now I'm looking at your report, the same one that 18 you have in front of you which has boon marka dMWm&HtfWAja 19 Now at that particular meeting, if what you say 20 there is accurate, Dr. Viola diacur.csd the fact that they had found tumors in rats who were exposed to 21 22 vinyl chloride, correct? 23 A Yes. q At that sane treating you were named Chairman of 24 the particular cemnittsa to plan some cooperative research. 25 I 1 *t9 o 2A No, not at thut mooting. 3 4A Q Wo 11, './hen was It dons? Wall,yog. It was. Yes. 5 Q All right." A I'm out of context. 6 Dr. Viola was originally asked to coma to the 7 United Statea on May 5th and 6th, for which I paid him 8 4-1,000 in expanses as part of his -- 9 MR. LEVINSON: Well, I'm not concerned with 10 that for the moment. 11 Q The fact la that there was a eemmittso forced. 12 is that right? o 13 A No, no. The committee was formed in November. 14 ' Q There was a committee formed in November of 1971? 15 A 16 Right. Yen, November. Q And you wore named Chairman of that committee to 17 plan corns cooperative research, correct? l8 A Right. 19 Q Mow as I raad ycur report there's -- by the way, 20 who else y:&e on your committoo besides -- 21 A T.R. Tcrkleson, Dill Reinhart of Ethyl, Dr. Maury 22 Jchr.oon. All those cats are doctors. 23 And Maury Johnson of, at that time, Unircyal. o 24 We also had a man there fro::: Goodrich, but I can't -- his 25 nnr.o escapes r.e right now. UCC 070427 / / V,':* ' j , 1, ft 1 Oh, uni Or. Sob boll from PUG Industries. 2 CJ All right. 3 Wow at that particular mooting that you held with 4 these various man from the various industries mentioned 5 by you, you've Indicated that you decided an Investigatory 6 procedure should take place, the coot of which should bo 7 about $350,000, Is that correct? 8 A 7os. 9 Q It further appears from your report that this 10 particular Association couldn't raise this $350,000 cr 11 didn't rai3o it? 12 A That's right. 13 Q So as a consequanco this particular investigation 14 didn't proceed, did it? 15 A Yes, it did proceed. 16 Q YJhen did it proceed? 17 A All right. 18 Bear in mind that when you have an industry -- 19 this is sort of like the Community ChG3t. You say you 20 need so many dollars and you sxpact the verious people in 21 industry to subscribe. 22 Some people have tougher times subscribing or 23 getting authorization, end these kinds`of things, so anyway 24 we had over 350. With, roughly, 165, I think it was, Q 25 which was enough to start the longest part of the study, UCC 070428 m o JJ 1 ic*h was th* long-'.: 'rm ii'.Vilr.tlcn, wa contracted with 2 Industrial Blot3t -nl ve rtda V.c decision to proceed 3 with the single study and we continued to raise money 4 to fund tV? remainder of the program, which wo did ultimately 5 0 All right. 6 How much money of that 165,000 did Union Carbide 7 put up? 8 d Wo laid out aonroxi'v.tsly $35,000 in pledges. 9 Q All right. 10 How this moating that was originally hold in 11 November 1371, the mooting whore the cormittao was formed, 12 wera you In charge of the ad hoc committee? 13 A Yes. 14 Q How aftor that particular meeting, whan was the 15 first time anything was done by way of any effort on the 16 part of MCA or Union Carbide to do or undertake, any rarearch5 17 A Thu rmnnirinji f-'~ tr*- "* Hi'Will 18 Wi Hire-*- InlaWTWl SlUUL' l Imljlffl. TaqA~ 19 Q All right. 20 But from 1971, in November, when you originally 21. had Dr. Viola speak to you and the committee was formed. 22 Union Carbide wo3 still producing PVC, correct? 23 A Correct. 24 Q How let mf- ask you a few questions about theos 25 various groups wo'rc talking about or will talk about. UCC 070429 '*.r. ?l::r - ''H~t in 1 You've r.jn'Joncl the Ksmufrcturing Chopiate 2 Association. 3 . Now toll us briefly what tha Manufacturing 4 Chemists Association Is, cf what they consist and what 5 their purposes era.,, 6 A It's a -- do I really nerd to go Into this? I've 7 already done this In the Interrogatories. 8 MR. LEVINSON: That's correct, and I don't 9 want you to go Into It In any groat detail, but 10 just tell ua generally what their function 13 and 11 who they are. 12 Let me ask the question In a leading way 13 bo that you can correct me If I'm wrong, in order 14 to save tine. 15 A Well, subject to what I've already told you in tha 16 Interrogatories, and I may not give you the exact wordn, 17 it's an organization dedicated to improve the safety of the 18 Industry and to improve the industry's image, so to speak, 19 and it docs provide services to the industry, such as 20 C'iEMTREC. 21 This ia a reporting system which, if a tank car 22 Jumps a track down here, and if it belongs to Union Carbide, 23 the railroad people and all the transportation people era o 24 told to call CKTJMTR2C, And thry'll run down tha ownor and 25 got the people on the epet who know how to handle thosa UCC 070430 " ,, f. 1 kir.i cf things. >0 2 They also tr.f.kc recon:rendctic;n3 to labeling, 3 safety procedures, er.d so forth, through tho Safety Data 4 Sheets. 5 Q ` All right. 6 Is it fair to say, first of all, that ltrs o.n 7 organization made yp of til leading chemical manufacturers 8 In tho Unlt9d States? 9 A Yes. 10 Q In It eafo: to sty or fair to say that In addition 11 to safety they also have other purposes whero they provide 12 for any mutual benefits of all the various corporate o 13 nenbers, eueh as lobbying, such as the discussion of any 14 future legislation on tho scena that involves chemicals? 15 A I think I would object to the term "lobbying." That 16 is one problem that we had with the Manufacturing Chwltta 17 Association, In that 18 of^ 19 20 Q All right. 21 You object to tho term "lobbying." 22 Do they have anything to do with keeping its members advised of any psaadg*1* "It,*5^TEl'*bn on the horizon? 23 o 24 A Yss. Q So try do haviother functions, besides health 25 UCC 070431 VI;- - r - 1 and safety, don't they? 2 A Yc3. Ours. 3 Q What are the other functions? 4 A- Wall, like I say, I'vs already told you this and I 5 can't recall the exact words in the Interrogatories, but I 6 think I did givo you their 20th Silver Anniversary or 7 reprints from it, which listed ^^TfftTrTTTiBtiitwiiii. thair 8 :tending committee? and a.arything. 9 Q All right. 10 Now do they also have a function in connection 11 with submitting and promulgating information concerning 12 manufacturing principals or mathod3 of assisting the various 13 member corporations in thsir production? 14 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure I understand 15 your question. 16 Q Do they proI mulgate research among the various 17 corporate members or disburse research from one member to 18 anothar? 19 A 20 They act as nn^saii Now I -- but as regards research, they do form 21 within themselves oo-called Project or Ta3k Groups. 22 The cms of these 23 where it was charged with furthering research on vinyl o 24 chlorido. * 25 Q So as I undsrstsnd it then, Nr. Whcsler, the only UCC 070432 4 / t.'frr'f'irr -- direct 1 research -- medical research -- that wes done through I'CA o 2 vr.s In 1971 for the first tin? when they called upon their 3 various members to provide $350,000 to do son? evaluation 4 of toxicity of PVC? 5 KP. .'"HOLLINGSHEAD: Are you limiting that6 question? 7 Well, let mo state an objection to it. Is 8 your question onlv with regard to --- i with 9 regard to the entire history of MCA cr are you 10 limiting it in time at all? 11 MR. LEVINSON: I'll withdraw the question 12 so that there's no problem with it. 13 Q Did the Manufacturing Chemists Association ev^r 14'' at any tine prior to 1970 do anything by way of promulgating or undertaking research of toxicity of PVC? 15 16 TIE WITNESS: New are you saying hands-on type research or are you saying collecting data 17 18 world-wide and riaklng sura that its members wore awars of It? 19 MR. LEVINSON: Well, let's take them one at 20 a time. 21 Q First of all, did MCA at any time prior to 1970 22 undertake any research by wp.y of collecting any epidemiologic 23 studies or anything outside of actual physical research on o 24 ths product? 25 UCC 070433 , Vi.: zl: r 52 1 A Always. o2 0 Well, what do you nc`on by ''Always"? When was ths 3 first tins? 4 A If I understand ycur Question, you're simply rephrasing 5 what I sail a rvsnoot ago, if I renor.ber correctly, in that 6 1,1,11" Frti mill 1 1 aillJillDLCI^,^ 7 .......... HtnfarHMfeag^ 8 Q All right. 9 10 11 12 A at9g<P*^ 0 13 14 Q Okay. V*hat did they do in 1966 that brought that to 15 your attention? 16 A Vs heard a ra port from 17 talked about the apparent syndrome involving the LoajagoXW 18 ffil,? fittflin li ritP--------- -- ------- - 19 Q That's tho acEftoatesolyalakyou talked about before? 20 A Yos. 21 Q Okay. That was in 1966. 22 What did they do after that paper by Dr. Wilson? 23 Was anything else ever done by MCA in the way of promulgatior o 24 of the information to you and U.C.C. about tho toxicity of 25 PVC? UCC 070434 ' r> _ 1r-,r *, _f_3_ 1 A ;:! cair.tair..,ii i physician on the Occupational Hcr.lth o 2 Cc~.i:+ itos of MCA for nsr.y, rcr.y y. dts, 3 Now this Information -- eny time there was 4 information fi.va31a.bls or problems, these were discussed, 5 with the tcr.afit "cf~ the Occupational Health Committee's 6 recommondatlons. 7 Q All right.. v 8 Mow getting b^'*> to my question, vou said before 9 that In 1956 they promulgated some Information about 10 dissipation of calcium in the tips of fingers of people 11 exposed to this particular product, correct? 12 A Loss of calcium. o 13 Q Loos of calcium, also known as aercocteolycis? 14 A Acrocsteolysio, yes. 15 Q Now my question is simply this? Did they, after 16 that date in 1966 when they first told you about this 17 problem, did they ever cons forth with any additional papers 18 advising you of any further study in that health problem 19 cr other health problems of people exposed to VCM? 20 A Well, they made an 21 1 which you'll find that there are a number 22 of articles that are listed in tho University of Michigan 23 Acroosteolyeis Study, and wo did make an offort to find o 24 out more about the oo-csllodgBfl8*tf$0biBfc^* 25 Apparently due to the difficulties in communleating UCC 070435 i - direct 1 Into tho Rtnoinn Son, wo wen able to ret no information 2 other than that work was going on, that they had scan 3 . acrooeteoly3io and wars studying It 4 Q War you personally Involved with MCA'a 5 invc-ctigatory pro a slinks? 6 THE WITNESS: Prior to what date? 7 MR. I/EVINSON: Prior to 1970. \ `7 8 A I would aay I was not personally Involved. 9 Q All light. 10 So whatever you're telling ua now Is strictly 11 What you've baon told yourself, correct? 12 A NO. 13 You asked me what MCA did and I was trying to 14 ( tell you what MCA did. Q But that's not of your own knowledge that you're 15 16 giving ua that answer, correct? 17 A I guoss you would have to aay It was secondhand 18 knowledge. Q All right. 19 Now, as a matter of fact, in reading your report, 20 Mr. Wheeler, you indicated to us that this particular 21 investigation was givon over to the University of Michigan 22 sons tins about the year 1965, correct? 23 A 24 Yus. Q And you received a report back from them around 25 UCC 070436 i 4 rf~ 1 1X9, thr.'o r:.r; lot er? 2 A That + t- fir.r\ rtpcrt. 3 0. The fir.t.l report? A Yes, 4 Q ::or in that thro*-yrer period, from your knowledge 5 C'lthrr first-hind ci* ludirectly-- won anything else done 6 by !'.CA by way of invent?. ~?.t ion? 7 A HO. 8 Q Trot.i your own personal knowledge did U.C.C. do 9 anything by vrr;y of personal invest i.gntiori? 10 MR. !!0LJjI"0S!I7iAD: You moan investigation 11 on th\c;' tv.'o questions? 12 !'?*. X.EVEI30!!: Toxicity of the PVC or the13 VCM. 14 MR. KCLLIYnsilEAD: You're excluding from 15 your question, than, any gathering of materials 16 or studies? 17 My question is thin: F: 18 19 20 A I don't knew what thsy did. 21 Q You don't knew? A Right. 22 Q AXL right. 23 'low between 1969 and 1971 -- that is N'oveirber of 24 1971 -- what did U.C.C. do "by way of any investigatory proceeding rs to d^tmiinirq the* toxicity of VC? 25 UCC 070437 __ I 56 1 A l.'all, tkny -- o2 Q And I'm uclng Wovc-nbcr 1971 as the date whan you 3 had that meeting of tha Kanufacutring Chemist a Association. 4 A If you confine that to my direct knowledge, I don't 5 know rhat they did. 6 Q All right. 7 But during this tlrns you v/cra the man who v;as 8 Involved with tha technical aspects of production of 9 polyvinyl chloride, correct? 10 A Yes. 11 Q But after this mooting in 1971, ths meeting 12 whan you ware named tho Chairman of this ad hoe committee o 13 for research, what was deno between that tine and tha 14 year 1973 by way of any research or any invest!gatory pro 15 ceedings? 16 A As I mentioned earlier, ws^^d^^agjUadustrialraiotert. 17 It was not a good choice, shall wo say, as far as hiring 18 because tha first thing they did after they wtre hired is 19 they moved their facilities. 20 Their people visited cur people and we vioitad 21 Industrial Biotost and r?fus3d to accept ths proposed 22 equipment they wore going to U3e, so we had soma arguing 23 back and forth. o 24 25 Q Well, let me got this straight. What date do you ascribs to that, as to when the UCC 070438 /irv r'ii.r - direct j 5 1 M.or-.csr.y trsts wore undertaker.? o 2 A Wo undertook the bicassay tests as soon 00 we had 3 collected the $165,000, which I think I referred to here 4 somewhere. 5 Q ' That was-1973, I believe. Corract? 6 A No. 7 Q Look at the fourth paragraph of your report. 8A (Witness complies with Counsel's request.) 9 Well, in 1973 there I say that we had collected 10 enough to sponsor the whole program. But we had undertaken 11 work prior to that point. 12 o 13 X should have made that plainer. MH. HOLLINGSHEAD: In fact, he testified 14 earlier that it was in 1972. 15 KH. LEVINSON: 1972? 16 THE WITNESS: Yes. 17 Q This was after the Kramsr and Hutchlar report, 18 correct? 19 A Yes. 20 Q And this is when you started doing tha bioaesay 21 toot, you say? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Now you say "wa." Who is "we"? 24 A The Vinyl C`dorido Research Group or the Vinyl Chloride o 25 Task Qroup of MCA. UCC 070439 V ' -- _ 1 0 Whop? v.rr?s that con1?? 2A It wr.e dona ch Industrial Dlotsct In Decatur, Illinois, 3 I bellevo Just out3la.a of Chisago. 4 Q Your plant voon't In Decatur, Illinois, was It? 5 A ho. 6 But we were sponsoring a part of the research 7 end I was aotivaly Involved at that tin as a so-callod 8 what's known as a --la what- ym might 9 cell a Steering Committee of six people who ware to oversea 10 tha program. 11 Q Now what wore they attempting to do at Decatur, 12 Illinois? What sert of bloassay teat? o 13 A We were going to do & 14 hall 15 It was supposed to be -- it was to be a tKDaara.w^'*tudy, , 16 The animal3 would be exposed eight hours a day 17 and then at the end of two years -- I'm trying to search 18 my memory now, I may be a littlo bit vague on this, but 19 thoy were to be nreropsied end, of course, the samples of 20 tho various organs taken, end w.e were going to do a 21 pathological study es well as a growth or microscopic 22 pathological study, as wail as a growth study. 23 Q Well, was this taken, then, at Decatur? 24 A Yes. 25 Aa I mentioned, we had trouble getting that off UCC 070440 * o \~. i* - dir 59 1 the tT'our.d because, frankly, v;e medn a bad choice. They 2 were not cc capable ca they should have bmn, arias a result 3 wo lost* I'd say, at least six months, maybe as long as a 4 year. 5 6A Q Who was not as capable? x don't understand. Industrial Blotset. 7 Q You moan the people performing these tests vfers 8 not capable? 9 A That's right. 10 Q V7ell, who did you retain to do this testing? 11 A Industrial Biotest. They're an industrial laboratory 12 who do Inhalation studios and bloassaya of various kinds. 13 Q Who retained this group? 14 A The Vinyl Chloride Task Croup. 15 Q Of the MCA7 A Right. 16 Q Well, how did you determine they wore not as 17 efficient es thay should have been? 18 A Ws wont out and looked into It and didn't like what wo 19 saw and we -- well, we told thorn wa would have to change 20 it. 21 q In othar words, you didn't like tho way they 22 wore proceeding with thl3 experiment? 23 A That's aorract. 24 Q In what way v.'sre they proceeding Improperly? A Wa were concerned Initially about ventilation in the 25 UCC 070441 1 3.C.tin"7, vf;,-;n WO V.'g* it'" 'I tO ho H\1T0 ?h''T,e WS.S TIO o 2 cplllovf r from r-pn g'vvwi o'* orinr.ln to another. 3 R?cause if you want to cxpo.no an animal to 50 ppm, 4 you want to be our* that thet group lo kept completely 5 :.prre.ts and yen don't rrat; leakage from the animals who arc 6 bain^ exposed to 500 ppm. You want to be eurs of what's 7 coins on during the exposure. 8 They were not fully ready, because they had 9 moved their facilities and as a rasult of that we lost ona 10 c-osplote set of animals. 11 Q Well, how did you reorganize tho tasting? 12 A Well, we bought another complete set of animals. 3hey o 13 did make the changes we requested .and ultimately got tho 14 thing off the ground and going. 15 But, like I say, due to this problem, It did 16 slow up and It delayed tho end results of the tost. 17 Q After 1972, though, what was done by Union Cnrbido, 18 itself, by way of any toxicity testing? 19 A Thun \io devoted all of our energies and felt this 20 industry-wide study would nrevido the answers that wo were 21 seeking, 22 Q V.lint did you do? 23 A v?*> worked with tho MCA Croup, 24 o Q You worked through tho MCA Group? A Yt.s. 25 --------------------------------------------------------1----------------------------------- UCC 070442 / , , r ~ - f 4* ________ J n x Q To that Ur.lor. Carbide -- and correct r.s If I'n 2 ;;ro;ir; -- p .-:vc:i;.lly did nc bating? 3 A Right. 4 Q Tho cnly tenting that was dona, then, from that 5 point cn vl.3 dor.i'hy- tho Manufacturing Chemists Association? 6 A Right. 7 Q Hew did the Manufacturing Chemists Association 8 actually conduct at any t*ne, to year knovfledgs, aftsr 1972, 9 that is after this report by Kroner and Mutchlor, any live 10 animal tasting on PVC or VCM7 11 THE WITNESS: I'm not cur#? I fellow you. 12 Would you go back through that ono again? o 13 14 MR. LEVINSON: Yes. Sur. THE WITNESS: Maybe I'm a little bit stupid 15 or -- 16 MR. LEVINSON: No, no, you're not. 17 0 Back in 1972 apparently there was a rsquast made 18 by your cor.Td.tt03 for MCA to produce $350,000 to do some 19 studios on VCM toxicity, is that right? 20 A No, r.o. Tbs request was mads to the individual 21 producers. 22 MR. LEVINSON: I'it sorry. 23 A Theca were teet3 of PVC and vlr.yl chloride, and o 24 v;e asltod that they voluntarily subscribe money and wo -- 25 the basic was -- well, we echcd each company to cubscribo UCC 070443 / 1 upu:. its publish.:! capacity. 2 Q All ri^ht, Veil, it*a mat important. 3 3at for the moment, In 1971 according to your 4 report, after Dr. Viola's work was discussed by hCA, the 5 ccr-icitteo v.'us :'o;-r?;'Ci and you were in charge cf tho ad hoo 6 committee and u. renu:ct was nude for the various nambars 7 to produce 3350,000 to -- 8 A Mo, not thosa m^nbe*-. ?ho members of the PVJ vinyl 9 chloride industry. 10 Q All richt, I'n not trying to quibbla. 11 The members cf the PV Group of the liCA? 12 A Okay, I'll accept that. 13 Q And I third: you mentioned many of their names 14 before, correct? 15 A Actually, tlu.ro vrara 33. 16 Q Thirty-three? A Yoo. 17 Q Such cs Goodrich End ycur company and many othors, 18 correct? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Okay. 21. And these various 33 companies could not produce 22 this $350,000 or would not produce it, is that correct? 23 A Until ooma time later. 24 :CT. KOr.LIUGSIiuAD: I object, to the ferm of ttv 25 causation. / UCC 070444  1 --r - -Hr: ct C3 1 tin. LLYincoi!: I withdraw tilt* question. 2 Q Accord'r.g to ycur report ir. 1972 the rponohorship 3 of the Manufacturing Chemists Association study did not 4 moot the financial objective of $350,000, la that correct? 5 That is correct. 6 Q But bom: time thereafter you did collect $165,000 7 correct? 8 * That wao -- It was ** the point roughly In tine that 9 thi3 statement was made, that we did not meet the financial 10 objective, v;hcn vfe had the $165,000 In pledges in hand. 11 Q And that was sene time in 1972? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Okay. 14 Now my question i3 this: Vfhat did MCA do from 15 1972 on, from the date you fir3t got $155,000 in pledges? 16 From that date on what did MCA do by way of developing 17 any Toxicity Study Program? 18 A All right. 19 As X mentioned before, v:s had laid it out. 20 v.'o etill sought contractors for the remaining pieces, 21 because W3 were confident that wa ware eventually going to 22 raise the money and, as I mentioned earlier, wo did get tho 23 Industrial uictest Long-Term Inhalation Study off tho o 24 ground. 25 In tho meantime we were still trying to & certain UCC 070445 Ur.: sic r - airrch I degree, and corswhnt successfully, to make contact end 1. o v.'orlc with tho European vinyl chloride and PVC producers. 2 Q You Bay "wa." Wot you, personally, correct? 3 4 A V/oll, it was personally a port of the ao-called Research Coordinator Groups And, as cuch, this was a part of ay. 5 decision and a part of my work, to try to melee sure thl3 6 got done. 7 Q By tho way, were records nsado by MCA of all tho 8 various things thay did in this oonr.ocfclcn or by your 9 committee? 10 A 11 Yes. Q And where are tha3a records? 12 oA 13 They're available from MCA. Q How would I get these records? 14 A I would suggest that you probably contact Lucille KoshelL 15 I believe the correct spelling is H-o-s-h-e-1-1. 16 Q And where is sho located? 17 A At MCA Headquarters in Uashington, D.C, It's on 18 Coxaiscticut Avenue and it's in the Universal Building. 19 It's about 1825 Northwest. I believe that's the correct 20 address. 21 Q Aro these records all available to th? public? 22 A Insofar as I know. 23 . Q Do you have copies of all these records? o 24 A I third: so. 25 UCC 070446 o ro i Q o / '.r-v :.V - ili.r'-ict 5 1 0 !!ow voluminous are they? TTITS WITNESS: I think you led ms down a 3 email blind allay. 4 MR. LEVINSON: Hot Intentionally. 5 TIIF. WITNESS: How we're still talking about 6 the notes of the meetings of the various -- of 7 tho Task Group and the Steering Committee, right? 0 Is that what we*re talking about? 9 MR. LEVINSON: I was talking about -- new 10 you've got me thinking. 11 THE WITNESS: Well, I answered your question 12 and then I -13 Q So there*s no misunderstanding, let mo first aok 14 you as to the notes of your committee, this ad hoe committee 15 that you refer to a3 the one that concerned itself with 16 toxicity of PVC or vcm. 17 Did ycur committee maintain notes of everything 18 that was dons? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Wao there a stenographer present taking down 21 the various meeting discussions? 22 A No. 23 So it waa not a verbatim record. 24 Q Wall, who made the rccorie? 25 A It wes the MCA Project Officer. UCC 070447 1 0 Ar.d I'ov.' would you m*et? o 2 A About thin tin? v* vriro meting on the ordor of onco 3 a month. 4 Q All right. 5 So fchore should have boon between ton or twelve 6 meetings hold every year, correct? 7 A Yjso. 8 Q Now where are those records? 9 A Well, as I mentioned, they are at MCA Headquarters, 10 and I think I also havo a complete file on that. 11 Q You have a complete file on it? 12 A Insofar as I know, I think I do. 0 13 Q And where is your file? 14 A It resides in Charleston. 15 Q All right. 16 Now is your file available? 17 A (v.itnoss shrugs hio shoulders.) 18 MJl. HOLUIIGSHEAD: I haven't looked in tho 19 fil yet. 20 Wo will certainly advise you what's in it 21 and if it's available. 22 Nov; I think your next question might be: 23 o 24 25 Hew voluminous is it? MK. LEVINSON: Ye9. nn. HOLLINOSHilAD: I don't know that either UCC 070448 J 1 or couroe Wlv-rler would know. 2 THE witness: It would net be en unreasonable 3 request for raa to pull those end make copies for 4 you. 5 MR;-LEVINSON: All right. 6 Will you do that? 7 THE WITNESS: Yes. 8 MR. HCLLTNn$T{E3; Just so I understand your 9 question, you're asking for Mr. Wheeler's file? 10 MR. LEVINSON: Mr. Wheeler's records of those 11 committee nestings hold between 1972 end the 12 present data that concern themselves with PVC and 13 VCM. 14 MR. HOLLINQSHEAD: All right. 15 My concern 13 -- end I don't know this, 16 bsoause I haven't spoken to him about It, but If 17 his file is incomplete In regard to what MCA 18 hQ3 In their file, I want it understood that we'ro 19 introducing Mr. Wheeler's file end I'm not 20 running a comparison myself. 21 If there's noro at MCA -- that I don't know. 22 MR. LEVINSON: All right. 23 THE WITNESS: That would be tho next thing 24 to disturb ne a little bit, too. 25 I would expect MCA's file to be complete ucc ---------- --*- /V'-i-sJ'.-y* - direct cn 1 find ny typical sloppy filing system io probably 2 not complete. 3 MR. LEVI!IS0*1: All right. 4 BY MR. LEVINSON: 5 Q Whore -would MCA'e fils be? 6 A In Washington. 7 Q Where? A At their Headquarters. 8 Q Did you sivo us their address before? 9 A Yes, although I would check it. It's roughly 1825 10 Connecticut Avenue, Northwest. 11 Q And that's Lucille Heshell, the one in charge cf 12 that? 13 A She is now. 14 At the time of this Dr. Kenneth Johnson was. 15 Now ha's no longer -- I think his health has deteriorated 16 to such a point that he's probably not a reliable witness 17 cr helper -- either one. It's rather unfortunate, but that* 18 the case. 19 MR. LEVINSON: Off the record. 20 (Discussion off the record.) 21 MR. LEVINSON: Back on the record. 22 Q Now were thore records or publications made by 23 the Manufacturing Chemista Association of this particular o 24 cubgroup of MCA concerning their studies from 1972 on? THE WITNESS: You're speaking of progress 25 UCC 070450 -J - olr.-ct Cp 1 Z'Oporto and the::? kinds of things? 2 MR. LEVIHEOII: Anything. 3 A The so wars mo3tly reported In tha minutes of this 4 group. 5 Q I eeo. 6 So that I understand you, they're mostly reported 7 In the minutes that you first talked about, tho minutes of 8 your moatlags7 9 A Yes. 10 Q And that came out once a month? 11 A Whenever wa had a nesting. 12 Q All right. 13 But ware there any publications, to your knowledge, 14 by MCA concerning this particular problem? 15 A If I'm not mistaken, I -- woll, I'd better check. 16 In tsrmo of publicly available documents, I don't 17 think that there were any. 18 Q Okay. 19 Wow In your report you have also referred at coma 20 point to tho Society of Plastics Industries. 21 A Yes. 22 Q Who wora they? A They are, again, 23 a train organisation made up of users and manufacturers 24 of plastics. 25 Q And where is thfr offica, their main office? UCC 070451 / I", . , 1 , - dirvet 1A It;'nn 'i.r.'f York, on Lexington Avenue*. 70 2 Q And who ruppertc this particular organisation? 3 A It, again, 13 supported through dues levied upon Its 4 members. 5 Q Is your `company a member of it7 6 A Y03. I 7 Q Are most plastic manufacturers members of it? 8 MR. HOLLIESHEAD: That's a difficult question 9 Kit.LEVINSON: All right. 10 Q Tall ms some of the names, to your knowledge, 11 of who era company members of this group, along with Union 12 Carbide Company. / o 13 A Dow, Goodrich, Goodyear, Firestone. 14 Q DuPont? A Yss. 15 Q Eastman Kodak? A Kodak I would have 16 to assume -- that I don't know. 17 Q Allied Chemical? A ' Allied Chemical, 18 yes. 19 Q All right. 20 So it's a fair statement to make, is it not, that 21. generally the leading companies in this country who arc 22 involved in plastics manufacture are members of this 23 organization? o 24 A Provided you will qualify that and say that it's open 25 to all manufacturers of plastics and plastic materials. UCC 070452 r;v'*-l?p -- dir? ct 71 1 It Involves end actually provides it3 greatest 2 rorvlco -- 3 Q What was that? A It is mors 4 involved and actually provides its greatest service to the 5 email manufacturer, the so-called man who has a garage 6 operation. 7 Q What sort of services does it supply? 8 A Oh, it brings tcgeUiai- in various sections -- and you 9 have to realise it's such & large organisation that I'm 10 not even prepared to discuss lt3 various places. 11 But it provides for interchange of information 12 on safety and it's much mors business oriented. o 13 As I mentioned earlier, 14 15 They have no hesitation, as you described it earlier, to 16 17 MR. LEVINSON: I 080. 18 That's not a dirty word, by the way. 19 THE WITNESS: I didn't say it was a dirty 20 word. 21 MR. LEVINSON: Okay. 22 S3 And that is why SPI came into the vinyl chloride 24 25 UCC 070453 72 1 A3, right. 2 To:? SnI hve any focilitl&n for testing any 3 predict o 7 4 A No, 5 Q Do thty ritrln any cheniato or engineers on thoir 6 staff -- SPI? 7 A Thoy have Technical Managers. 8 Q Managers? A Yos. 9 Q And whet la their function? To assimilate various 10 papers in the field? 11 A To organise mnetings on various technical subjects, 12 to collect papers and male sure that these -- if they o 13 appear to ba inpertent -- are made available or that its 14 mambera are made aware. 15 Q All right. 16 By the way, going back ono step, does Manufacturing Chsmiots Association have any tasting facilities for products 17 18 A Wo, neither of thess organizations have any. Q Do they retain any full-time dootors? I'm talking 19 20 about research M.D.'s on their staff7 A Wot to my knowledge. 21 Q All right. 22 Now you clno have mentioned at soma point in 23 your report an organization knevm act "< o 24 correct? 25 UCC 070454 - **, 1 ' ft 1 4 Correct. 7? 2 Q Who are they? They are a group -- 3 It's a branch of IRC -- 4 which I think was founded by -- It was a Foundation In 5 How York by Rockefeller and sons of his people. 6 And IRC la a nonprofit educational kind of a 7 Foundation, whereas the spin-off and setup in Washington t 8 0?.C -- la supposed to be a self-supporting branch f IRC. 9 Q What's their purpose? 10 A 1wi>iy'^aag^pgx^mntrof -Labor, 11 12 Q Again, these members -- and I'm not talking member- o 13 for-member -- are the sane members who belong to the STI 14 also members of the ORC? 15 A NO. 16 There you run into a wider gamut. We have 17 people like Weatinghouse, G.E., Eastman Kodak, and again 18 some of the chemical companies such as Carbide are members. 19 Allied Chemical and -- it's a more diverse organisation. 20 Q And again, they do no testing of any kind, do they? 21 A Only as a Task Group. I think I mentioned in my report 22 that the 'ORChITa *lout5pidemtolgieilstilUyaou the effects 23 of polyvinyl chloride and vinyl chloride on the fabricating o 24 industry. 25 Q Wall, by ''Epidemiological Study", Just so wo UCC 070455 / ... ' .T. ^ 41 ^^ _ J . P.,*<If i und-ir:.* nr.l each oth.ir, the.7 merely dither reports from other 0 2 rouroc-3 and put th:ia togathor to domino sorao conclusion. 3 Io that what you1 rj talking about? 4 A An Epidemiological Study, depending on whether you're 5 doing a r^wrMrjj^ I guoc3 is a 6 batter term, Study -- In fact, that is the correct term. 7 In a Retrospective study you oan go back into the medical8 * scoria, and in thi3 par ticular study group ycu ` i--> looking 9 for deaths. 10 Q 3uk it's a rocord-soaking or typa of research. 11 Is it not? 12 A Wall, that'? the- first step. You seek the records and Q 13 then you try to reduce thorn to Gorr.o relationohlp as compared 14 to a standard population. Ideally, if you could, you would 15 collect this cc-callol exposed group and than a non16 exposed group, everything else bolng the Bams and not 17 dir.3lnilar to a laboratory study on bioasoay on animals. 18 Unfortunately, though, you never gat raal purity. 19 In tho laboratory-- in a box you can control everything. 20 but whan you're dealing with a group of people hare and 21 a group of people hora, you're gottine into Gome vary t 22 diverse and multiple effect kinds of things. 23 o Am I raking myself clear? MR. LEVTIISOH: Y-cs, you'r* making yourself dear * "l ; + y+ _ A A f* 9 } i 75 1 Q So that this orgcnidation -- SPI -- tha only 2 research th"y have dcr.n has bean of an epidemiological 3 nature? 4 A Mo, no, wo*ra talking about ORC, 5 6A Q ORC. I'm sorry. Is that correct? That is correct. 7 Q Now do you personally subocribo to tho validity. 8 *f Epidemiological Studies? 9A 10 I think they are of varying quality.* The ORC Study has accomplished its objective, 11 which was to -- we were looking for the sebIdh*i1s&as 12 o 13 Q And that's all you were looking for with them? 14 A That was fie basic thinking and objective of tha 15 study. 16 Now 1 did talk them into, since we had the data 17 on other deaths, to publish the whole thing as opposed 18 to saying, "We have curvsyed tha fabricating industry and 19 investigated X number of deaths and found no angiosarcomas." 20 Q Who paid for thiE particular investigatory 21 proceeding? 22 A Again, the small group of companies, of which Carbide 23 was one. o 24 Q Do you recall at this time how much money was spent for this Epidemiological Study? 25 UCC 070457 J 1 A I'm eorry, bufc I don't knew. I can find out for you. o 2 If it'3 critical. 3 MH. LEVTMSOII: It's not important. 4 Q Do you roc all when it was done? 5 A It was organized -- I don't -- X didn't put a date 6 dorm, but I would say it was initiated about the end of 7 8 Q Do you recall v/bo was in charge of this study? 9 A l^gasfiflSdBK^ And he had working with him a n"TripA1 1 10 11 Q Who was he? A He's an H.D. and 12 an epldemd-ologiat and he works at Georgetown. D 13 14 And we also employed several noscloglet3. Q Several what? A ttgfe^pgirta.,^ 15 Anyway, those are people who are expert in 16 reviewing death certificates ar.d classifying cause of death, 17 Q Ar.d all they do is read what they see on a 18 death certificate ar.d put it in soma category, is that it? 19 A Yes. 20 And thin is wher excellent work. 21 In order to read a death C3rtificate and classify it, 22 first you've got to find it. And he did go into areas of the various plants and talked his way into hospitals and 23 o 24 various other places to dig out records. As a result ha did a reasonable Job. I think he 25 f'ir >o,t 1 not about nrybe 77 cud thp.t's about all you can 2 hone for In p or.*? thin nr of this nature. 3 Q And what happens to employees who leave the 4 employment after exposure and subsequently die? Do they g t 5 tholr death certificate es well and evaluate their problems? 6 A If they are traceable. 7 Q So thore's a large element that's not traceable, 8 t assume. or an element '`vet's net traceable? 9 A Well, it becomes one of these asympotlc 10 affolra. It takes an Infinite amount of labor to got that 11 last case, end as a result most Epidemiological Studies are 12 very fortunate -- they gat to 95. Most like to get to 90 13 per cent or better. 14 <3 Well, ORC -- Organization Resources Counselors -- 15 published thla Epidemiological Study? 16 A Yos. 17 Q And where io that? 18 A It resides In the hands of the members. There's ona copy that wa3 given to NIOSII and one to OSHA. 19 20 Q Do you recall the results of those studies? A I would Just as soon read it to you as opposed to tryln; 21 to recall It, because it's entirely too technical, except 22 for the fact, as I mentioned earlier, that this was a 23 24 3tudy that went looking for what v:e still consider a with regard to vinyl chloride exposure, and 25 UCC 070459 7 1 o2 43 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 6 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 o 24 25 t-hut's the asiasftasassKiswm Q When you a ay "In the nggBaggciS^^^I^^1, what do you meen by that? A Those are the people that take the whita powder -- Q And turn it into a finished product? A -- and combin'* it with plasticizers, stabilizers and "^lors and run it through e Banbury or extruder and tflly^Og^^ut^with-^^aaifinlahM^J^uct-guchftB ^i^`linrj',r<rrrigid 'ShbetT^ Q What about the incidence of angiosarcoma In their studies that wore found or net found among people working in the actual production of the polyvinyl ehlorldo, that is storting with the vinyl chloride monomer and producing the polyvinyl chloride? MR. H0LLIMQSH2A9: I'm not sure that's a question. Ycu asked about -- MB. LEVINSON: Do you understand tho question? Strike the whole question. THE WITNESS: I'm not euro. I prefer to have ycu restate that one. MR. LEVINSON: All right. Q Now you've told uo that the ORC finding UCC 070460 *.n.:r ? *r - .V,,rct 70 1 cpidamlolorlcr.lly conc^rnad Itself with the fabricators o 2 of FVC. 3 A Yes. 4 0 Ky qusotion now Is this: Did It concern ltaslf 5 with thcoo people working in the production of PVC itself? 6 THE WITHES3: Now whon you refer to 7 you're saying the raw whito powder? 8 M3. LEVINSON; 9 THE WITNESS: Well, now, not pallet powdor. 10 I'm speaking of powder only. 11 MR. LEVINSON: All right. 12 Q In other wcrd3, the pellet le made fron the o 13 powder, oorrect? 14 A Ho. 15 Q It's different? A 16 jLqftfrslt* b - a step'Hh TSbrlcation ! * 17 When you convert the resin to a compound pellet, 18 then you've started fabrication, number one. 19 Q All right. 20 Now let's start with the powder then. 21 A All right. 22 At that point in tiros we were already aware of 23 o 24 Q So then, a3 I understand it, the only thing ORC accomplished epidiroiolosically was a otudy of the 25 UCC 070461 ' If.i. . . J. . i- - Cii-JC,, QV 1 reJi.ticnr.hlp of crntfosereorna only in the fabricating industryr? A yes. 2 3 4 5 Now everything than hit with this prcblsa. The 6 first thing we wanted to do is find out what is its extent T and wa felt tfco best way to find out whether It extended 8 all the way down evan to the housewife is to pick the next 9 step in the chain of manufacture and look at it very 10 carefully. 11 MR. LEVINSON: Now might be a good time to 12 o 13 14 break for lunch. (Luncheon Recess: 12:10 P.M.-1:10 P.M.) MR. LEVINSON: Back on the record. 15 Repeat the iast question and ansv;or. 16 (The requested portion is read by the 17 Reporter.) 18 19 ROSCOE NICHOLAS YJ HEELER. 20 J R., previously sworn, testifies further as 21 follows: 22 DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED 23 BY MR. LEVINSON: 24 Q Was that the end .of your answer, Mr. V/hoeler? 25 UCC 070462 i^ CVI o 1 1 1 L-1r r - :et 1 A I thlr.k so, if yGU understand uhut I'm saying. ,*??. Q I undoivitand what you're saying. 3 Nov;, Hr. VThoaler, I think It was your testimony 4 this morning that you wore in charge of occupational 5 health in the yoar"1978 to 1979, is that correct? 6 A Well, Insofar as vinyl chloride, I have a number of -- 7 Q What*a that? A I have a number of 8 health projects, ono of which is vinyl chloride.- 9 Q Okay. 10 Nov; who was in charge at U.C.C. between 1970 and 11 1978? 12 A I would say the basic man in charge was Dr. Carl Dornehl 13 Q Well, Dr. Darnehl is an M.D., correct? 14 A Correct. He's our clinical toxicologist. 15 Q He's also the man who's your Number 1 doctor 16 in your organization? 17 A No, lio's not the Medical Director. 18 Q Now when did he first become the doctor in charge? 19 MR, H0LLIHG3KDAD: Were talking now about 20 occupational -- 21 MR. LEVINSON: Safety and health. 22 MR. HOLLING3HEAD: Concerning PVC or the 23 entire -- 24 MR. LEVINSON: PVC. 25 A As of my knowledge, which may not be entirely correct, UCC 070463 . *. V 1 In tlir etrly rixtita. 0" 2 Q Ckry. 3 So Dr. Dernehl, yoi ere telling us, was In charge 4 of occupational safety and health, Including -- 5 A Uo, no, no.'"Only the radical and toxicology pert. 6 Q He was In charge of rcadical toxicology from tha 7 early Sixtiao until when? The present tine? 8 A YSS. 9 Q Well, whr.t Job did ycu have that you described 10 earlier to us In 1978 that was in connection with health 11 involving PVC? 12 A I support the medical croup in torms of collecting Q 13 the tachnlcal Information and do surveys and act es 14 liaison, generally. 15 They are our specialists that I call upon, If 16 you ace what I mean. 17 Q All right. 18 Then as I understand it. Dr, Dernehl was tha 19 nan in charge of the toxicological preblens vis-a-vis 20 safety of the workers, is that correct? 21 THE WITNESS: Could you define "in charge 22 of"? 23 Q Well, let no ask you this: What was Dr. Damshl'e o 24 Job, from the early Cixtiaa, that you told us about? 25 A Well, our clinical toxicologist, and I believe he UCC 070464 1 w;.o A. -.-.tent Cor;.'--T* esl Director. o2 o. And *r. a cl fr.ierl tori coll or.is4-? 3 A That's my own dofiniticn, please, and I won't say that 4 it's exactly right. 5 Q Veil, did lie work In the sane plant you did In 6 Texas City oi* Churleeton? 7 A No. Darnohl has an office In New York. 8 Q Wall, did you so what Dr. Dorr.ehl would 9 do? Did you over look at him working? 10 A I have worked with him. I have nevar -- 11 Q In what connection did you work with him? 12 A In collecting information and also collecting -- gottin o 13 hia opinion and, in effect, trying to coma up with an 14 overall package. 15 Thora Is a madical/clinical type of information 16 which constitutes a part. 17 You have tha occupational segment, exposures of 18 pocpla, and thsoe kind of things. Then you've got, in 19 addition to that, the Government regulatory business end 20 you have, In addition to that, a considerable inflow of -- 21 well. I'll say information. 22 Q Well, .Juot for tho moment, co that I understand 23 what you're talking about in connection with Dr. Derrtshl, o 24 you've- classified him ac the clinical toxicologist, is that 25 correct? UCC 070465 A Yes. Q prot of nil, did ho do c.Tr'rrlm.^nts that you evsr saw him do? A Ha did Gtudl3s, but I don't know If ho did 0xp0rl1r.2r.to. Q All rights Did you ever see him work In a white jacket, for example, in a laboratory? A Ho. Q Every time you saw him ha was In nn office, oorraet? A Yes. Q He was In a business suit, correct? A Yes. Q Did you evor sea him do controlled research pro jects of any kind, actual toxicological research? A Hot to my knowledge. Q Between I960 and tho present date, did Onion Carbide maintain a laboratory for doing toxicological studios on human problems In connection with PVC? THE WITNESS: Arc you speaking strictly as related to human reactions? HR. LEVINSON: Human reactions. A This all foil under Carl Dcrnehl, and the -- m. LEVINSON: That's not my question to you, Mr. Wheeler. UCC 070466 t'l: *: ct Or 1 0 My qucrticn is nirr.nly thin: Did you ever observe o 2 any laboratory of any kind where this work wa3 done from 3 I960 to 1979* the present date? 4 A Only to the extent that ws have sponsored the clinical 5 6 MR. LEVINSON: Do you understand my quoction? 7 THE WITNESS: Tos, I undoratand the question. 8 Q Did you avar aoe, In all your time from i960 to 9 1970,any laboratory when thi3 work was done, operated 10 by Union Carbide? 11 A No. 12 Q How did Dr* Dernshl have any doctors under him 13 who did research, human research on PVC toxicology? 14 A I couldn't tell you because I don't know. 15 Q Okay. 16 Akw=^a-jyft*T*irat - menufaetuf^L^^^JnJCfiilide 17 I believe you told us in your report, is that 18 correct? 19 A If that's the date in the report, it's correct. 20 Q I think you listed it under the ecrios of dates, 21 fchn chronology. 22 A Okey. 23 I said that we started commercial production of o 24 vinyl chloride and the manufacture of vinyl chloride by -- 25 Q By 1928, i? that right? ucc ''.rosier - direct iu 1a no, o2 0 Yev hud yn-r tho 3 vinyl chloride monomer, la that correct? 4 A- Insofar es X cm interpret our records, yes. 5 Q V.'oll, there are your records that yn Just handed 6 ins and I'm Just reeding from thorn. 7 A Yes. 8 Don't forget that I wasn't working there in 9 1928. 10 Q I'm coming to that. 11 You started work there for than for the first 12 tins in 1943, correct? o 13 A Yes 14 Q Now in 1943 you weren't concerned with vinyl 15 rosins, were you? 16 A Right. 17 Q In your first couple of years there you didn't 18 have anythin? to do with th.t3 particular phase of activities1 19 A That's correct. 20 Q But you did 3tart working in the polyvinyl 21 chloride ari& a couple years latsr, is that right? 22 A In 194S, approximately. 23 Q Now when you started working in that department, o 24 did you have coercion to go to their library where they 25 kept all their literature and pamphlets concerned with UCC 070468 X various ch-viccl procc",r?'a end chsnical properties o 2 cf the vurlc/.c ^hf.nrt th^t ".'.iny v^rs concern?.'! with? 3 A Yt-s, or I simply called the library and asked them 4 to have a bool: cent to re. 5 Q All rlrht. 6 New prior to the time that your company went into 7 production of pvc, of ths actual polymerization of the 8 vinyl chloride monomer, your company do, to 9 knowledge -- either directly or from reading literature -- 10 any research, any live animal research on PVC or the 11 monomsr? 12 / MR. HOLLINCSHF.AD: Can I have the first o 13 part of that repeated? 14 ' (The requested portion la read by the 15 Reporter.) 16 HP.. HCLLINOSHEAD: All right. Thank you. 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 o 24 25 THE WITHERS: Haven't we already covered all this in the Interrogatories? MR. LEVINSON: My question to you has to b answered here. If there's any objection, Mr. Holllngshcad will make it for you. MR. HOLLINGoHEAD: I think Mr. VhOOler'S ccrcmnt lu simply to the extent that it oDpears in the Interrogatories, that hiu verbal response UCC 070469 J p.r 1 o2 icul \ only suppianant that. r:r.. Lr.7r:no'jj im like to have him ** ^ 3 4 A All right. 5 6 7 Q And what year was that?' 8 I thin?: that'? In cr... of my reports. I'm not sure 9 Just which one, though. That was under ftP^Ksniy^gmyth. 10 Oh, Hare we are -- 1937. And there was a 11 Chemical Hygiene Fellowship undsr Dr. Harry F. Smyth. 12 Q That's four years aftr-r you went into production, o 13 correct? 14 A Yes. 15 Q How do you know tho nature of that particular 16 work that was dor.o by Dr. Smyth at the Mellon Institute? 17 A Well, one of which was e lone-term fsoddng study of 18 polyvinyl chloride to rats. It was on of the first long 19 term chronic studies ever conducted. 20 Q And do you have a copy cf his report? 21 A I hnvs a summary copy. 22 Q Do you havs it embodied in your report hore, 23 the report marked for identification? o 24 A I dor.ft recall now whether it's in that whole bunch 25 of notorial I sent you or not. ucc '.'h 3 ct Q'J 10 2 A I thi: 3 uirtiWlBSJ" , you, In the first part, \/horo I refer to the 4 toxicity o 5 reports uc.: 6 Smyth and'.: 7 dona for C University for 3.P. 8 Company. 9 0 And that's on Parts 24 of what'a been marked 10 pw-i, is t: 11 A Right 12 In both cases PVC was given to the animals for 13 tv:o years. 14 the raain 15 Q 16 fed to tha 17 knowledge 18 A Both 19 with vinyl 20 Q Ccpolynzrs? A Yos. 21 0 And hovr is that different than tho ordinary 22 polymer? 23 A ' A r.-.r.a o 24 material w 25 or three p UCC 070471 I 1 pc*ly;chain. o2 Q '..V.rt nctv.r.l noncn:r count in that porticula: 3 product? 4 not Mil. HOLLI!JOG!I"AD: I*n^plng to put a direction 5 on the' record to direct him not to answer. 6 but obviously the report which is available 7 spoah3 for itself, and to that extent if at any 8 time his answer is inconsistent with it, I don't 9 intend either for him to bo bound by it or for 10 Union Carbide to bo bound by it, because ha's 11 working on nonary. 12 You can answer the question aa bc3t you o 13 can. 14 ' A Well, cs b93t I can recall at the moment, it's 15 roughly two to three per cent vinyl acetate. 16 Q My question was do you know tho actual ppm of 17 froa ncr.omcr in that particular product that was being 18 used? 19 A no. 20 Q Do you know the extent of the tooting? Do you 21 know over -..'hat period of tir.e these testings had gone on? 22 A Two ycar3. 23 Q And do you know tho amount of rats that wore usad 24 ar mica that ware used in this particular experiment? 25 A I don't remember right r.ow. It's in the report. UCC 070472 f,` _ f*4 >' t A 1 Q Where Is this report? 2 A It13 nt the Mellon Institute. 3 Q Do you have e copy of it? 4 A. 1 have* e Bunmnry copy. 5 Q Is it a bis volume or rather simple? 6 A No, Just a snail -- 7 MR. IIOLLINGSKEAD: My recollection is that 8 it's boon provided to you in Answers to Interred 9 toriea. 10 MR. LEVINSON: Do we have it? 11 THE WITNESS: I would think it has besn 12 provided. 13 MR. LEVINSON: All right. 14 MR. K0LLING3HEAD: While you're talking. 15 I'll see if I can find it. 16 THE WITNESS: If I didn't^ I'm very sorry. 17 But I think I certainly would have Intended 18 to. I think I gave you a copy of both the 19 20 MR. LEVINSON: Okay. 21 Q How I think you testified you first started 22 manufacturing in 1?33. When you wont into full production 23 of TVC at that particular point, where ifers you doing the 24 manufacturing? Was it all done in Charlsoton or was part 25 of it done in Texas7 UCC 070473 ^ *1, , 1 ~ v. A A .. 1. A All In Charleston. 2 Q All In Charleston? A Y9. 3 Q And what typa of PVC ware you manufacturing? 4 What, process were su using? 5A 6 V.'oll, let's go'beck to this chronology hora. From our prime product was the 7 so-called which contained ton to fifteen 8 per cant vinyl acetate in ths polymer. 9 And thess are only epproximato. 10 Now in 1937 I'd say we he sen coiraercial production 11 of vinyl chloride rssin by a *niirnnwHWiMn 12 process. 13 Now at this point in tine there wera two products: 14 Or.o was VYNW, which contained about two per cont vinyl 15 acetate and QYHA, which was, in offset, 100 par cent vinyl 16 chloride. 17 Q All right. 18 And when did you go into tha ew!iw*WTOw#n 19 manufacturing? 20 A Oh, that was considerably down the road. I'd say 21 22 Q All right. 23 How did you have occasion to tost at any time 24 the residual vinyl chloride monomer in these various 25 products? UCC 070474 / - ftJIrf,_________ ______ 0v 1 lift. H0LLINGSII2AD: ir.iot do you mean by 2 "you" In that question? 3 lift. LEVINSON: I mean by Union Carbido 4 Company. 5 KRT'KOLLINGSIIEAD: The company Itself or 6 anybody on their bshalf? 7 MR. LEVINSON: Yes. Right. 8 MR. HOLLIftSSHEAD: No, no. Which do you monn'i 9 Do you mean the company Itself or anybody on tholr 10 behalf? 11 MR. LEVINSON: The company itself. 12 THE WITNESS: How you're speaking of what 13 time period? 14 MR. LEVINSON: All right. All right. 15 Let's start you off with the first tine it 16 was done. 17 A Yes. 18 Q And when was it fir3t dons? 19 A I couldn't tell you, because our records don't go back SO that far. SI. Q How far back do your records go in measuring 22 tho rccldual vinyl chloride monomer count? 23 A I guess you night say the ones which I'vs supplied 24 you constitute all tho records I wes able to gst. 25 CJ Well, if you turn to Page 46 of your report. UCC 070475 1 which ic fi.'-D, and it's bofcre ycu new, you ret forth there o 2 the ,TtfH hi uln. 3 A Yes. 4 Q iJovf when was that count cede ? 5A Appro xia~\toly^i9 74. Early In 1974. 6 Q Yot you were manufacturing a suspension resin 7 back in 1955? 8 A Yes. 9 Q So that botween 1935 and 1974 there were r.c 10 counts bring made by Union Carbide Company, to your 11 knowledge? 12 A Yes, vs had nadr acre. o 13 Q Wall, whan did you make those "some"? 14 ` A I*d have .to dig back through the records and find them. 15 Wo arid Armstrong Cork became concerned about this 16 because thoy did find a ^fcaraaafaivswdacfctfK* in some of their 17 storage 3iloo, and at that tins our analytical techniques 18 were not all that refined. 19 We do know wo v-rro locking at waBtart 20 in the ...... ........ that time on the order of .Bin jimn i 21 22 Q All right. Let me go about it another way. 23 &mnknmrnm*^*u(nmf> .............m........ f urn^m^tr.. Q 24 is that correct? 25 A Yjfl. T UCC 070476 i / Mer - <Ur 95 1 0 And was that problem ever associated by ycu or o 2 vert* you ever mado award of the feet that there was some 3 connection between that and the vinyl chloride monomer? 4 A This was a presumed connection. 5 And to'myMcnowledga it's still a proauna 6 connection to this day. .7 Q All right. 8 But it was prasumbd than, too, v;as it not,. in 9 1966? 10 A No, it was presumed in 1969. 11 Q But in 1966 you first became awaro of the aero12 oatcolyaia problem that existed among polyvinyl chloride workers, correct? o 13 14 Q But people exposed to vinyl chloride monomer? 15 16 A No, no, this w&s a particular occupation. This was a guy who went down into the reactor and scraped the 17 walls. 18 Q Now what that man was exposed to was a hard19 caked polyvinyl chloride on reactor walls, la that correct? 20 A In that rsDpect, plus also ha was exposed to the 21 high concentration of polyvinyl chloride in his working 22 atmosphere. 23 Q Thenonomer is what you're talking about when you o 24 say "vinyl chloride", la it not? 25 UCC 070477 c.*r 1 A . Y';3. o2 Q So tfi*- Veu believe at that ties that there wan 3 acme connection between the vinyl chloride and the acro4 C3tcolyoio? 5A l.'a had no prdof. 6 Like I oay, when we got through with the study in 7 1969 we made a basic presumption that thi3 must bo the caae 8 and the otudy rficorrmendcJ that vinyl chiorids- exposure bo 9 limited to 50 ppm. 10 Q But your actual measurements, you say, didn't 11 start until 1974? 12 A Well, now, we're talking about two different aninals o 13 again. 14 Q All right. 15 When did your actual study start then? 16 A In one case you're talking about vinyl chloride 17 contained in the solid polymer residual and -- 18 MR. LEVINSON: Right. 19 A Now when we talk about osposurs to $0 ppm in a working 20 atmosphere, we'ro talking about vinyl chloride contained 21 in the breathing air. 22 Q All right. You're right. 23 Now when did you first develop or start counting o 24 the ppm of vinyl chloride In the atmosphere? A I think I mentioned this morning that I requested a 25 T UCC 070478 1 rc'.kcd tt hi deveicrmd in 19^9. 2 0. v"? first tire that you worked on 3 developing u method for doing that? 4 A No. 5 Vs hod Sod-methods before thcfc, but we reeded a 6 mothcd which would so down lower. 7 If you're going to set for yourself a goal of 8 50 ppm worker minimum, then you have to have a 9 moans of measuring 50 ppm which Is practical and usable 10 in the plant. 11 This is what I was after. We should mseauro this 12 in the laboratory end ws did have -- there were devices 13 on the market which had an advertised sensitivity of 100 ppm 14 But, like I say. If you're going to set yourself a target, 15 you've got to ba able to see the target. 16 Q All right. 17 Now when then did yn first develop something -- 18 anything that would measure the PVC in the atmosphere within 19 any range, regardless of the smallness of the amount? 20 A Wall, I think you're being a little broad, but I will 21 also answer you broadly In that as a Gas Analyst in 19^3 22 I could have measured vinyl chloride at a concentration ** 23 of a tenth of the par cant volume in air. 24 Q In 1943? A Yes. But a tenth of the per cent in sir Is ono-thouoand 25 ucc //'y-.t4 - \ r - c*.r- raU -J eft 1 Ppa. 2 0 All right. 3 ''-'on did you first develop any machinery or any 4 typo of test ins; that would t3t, for example, one ppm? 5 A This car.o-eftor the development, you might say, with 6 common usago of gas chromatographs. 7 Q Whan was that? 6 that up. I don't recall. A I'd have to dig 9 Q And what Is this device you're talking about? 10 Gas what? 11 A Chromatographs. 12 Q Chromatographs? A Yes. D 13 Q Well, gas chromatographs have teen in use a long l4 - tlr.o, have thr.y not? 15 A Yes. 16 But now It took ia while for them to go from a 17 laboratory curiosity to becoming a standard laboratory 18 apparatus. 19 Q All right. 20 Now let's go bask a few stops. Now to your 21 knowledge Union Carbide, Itself, outside of this one cpisod3 In 1937 whan they had Dr. Smyth at Mellon CVI CM 23 Institute do corns research for thorn on FVC and VCH, did you 24 do anything else by way of research on the product before O 25 It went into production? After It went lnto^.s,^uc"^,on o O .1 / v:* - Vi* a I psnn. I*:a sorry. no 2 THE iflTEESS: Kov/ which product? 3 MH. LEVINSON: PVC. 4 A In the material I supplied you I think you will find 5 a su;'L'i:iry of Gi.*rr;s4;;:;t work which was done at Mellon 6 Institute. 7 Q No, no, I said outsida of Mellon Instituta. 8 Outside of this ona tost in 1937. 9 A No, no. 10 I'm saying that thsro are also other tests in 11 tha materials which you've boon supplied with, tests which 12 lnvolvo chin sensitivity and these kinds of things. 13 Q All right. Lat me Just look at this. 14 In 1940 your records show studios for skin 15 sensitizetion v/ith regard to PVC rs3ina and compounds 16 at ttsllon Instdutn by Dr. Smyth. 17 A Yos. 18 Q After that tha next thing you have Is again 19 by Dr. S;::yth in 1947, and this is on chronic oral toxicity 20 to rats cf vinyl chlorido-vinyl ecotete copolymer, correct? 21 A No, no. I'm saying there that tha work -- this 22 work we.3 dons earlier. Excuse no. I bog your pardon. 23 That's correct, ac stated on Peso 27. 24 The reporting was issued in 1966. That's cn 25 Page 45 -- or is it Interrogatory 45? UCC 070481 /t* * . ** ' 'A U __i 3.00 1 o2 I!H. R0iLi:ia.-:ir.ADi Interrogatory 45 of the nlr.lntirrs Supplemental I;* ;rrogatories. 3 HR. LEVIMSON: What is the question? 4 fiR, HOLLINGSfiEAi): The question is: "List 5 toxicological and other studios relating to 6 occupational health that wore wholly or partially 7 sponsored by Union Carbide Corporation." 8 And that answer is contained in nv letter 9 to you of September 19, 1978, as a supplementary 10 answer to thoso Interrogatories. 11 m'. LEVINSON: All right. I*ra now looking 12 o 13 14 at that letter. Off the record. (Discussion off the roeord.) 15 MR. LEVINSON: Back on the record. 16 Q I now have before ne tha letter that's been 17 referred to as a more complete answer to Interrogatories 18 with regard to Interrogatory 45, in which you are stating 19 thet Union Carbide has given ud all the toxicological 20 studioa done on this particular product. 21 Mow do you have a copy of that letter in front of 22 you? 23 A Right here. o 24 25 Q All right. Mow you told us a moment ago about the fact that UCC 070482 /**! - - <! - _ , 4 / *. * * .k - -- - ^ J 101 1 rollon of Poeoirch did some studios In 1937 and 2 these otudl'-n v."jrn of n natur? whore certain PVC compounds 3 wora given to the rata by feeding, lo that correct? / 4 A * No, this wco a skin sensitisation. 5 0 A skltr~&anritir.Eticn? A Yes. 6 Q All right. 7 Now if you look at the letter of September 19, 8 1978, particularly to Question Number 4 or Paragraph 4, 9 at the bottom of the page, it indicates in the last lino, 10 "This study Involved exposure of rats, mice and hamsters 11 to vinyl chloride concentrations of 0, 50, 200, 2,500 ppm's 12 by inhalation. The histopathology for thiu study is 13 not complete; however, 14 at all levels of exposure." were found in the animals 15 Now, Hr. Wheeler, it appears this particular test 16 was dons is that right? 17 A Yes. That's the Industrial Qloassay Test that we 18 talked about this morning. 19 Q And at no time prior to 1975, you ars telling 20 me, did Union Carbide ever find such histories of neoplasms 21. by use of animal testing? 22 A Ho, no. Let's go back a little bit. Don't forget that in the 1930'a and up until the 23 o 24 early Forties there v;&.3 e great deal of effort on the part of the medical profession to use vinyl chloride as an 25 I UCC 070483 V?U 1 ,7- - 1 r.r'-.thttie t.nd It tm t'^rcvr* out r.2 anfor 2 surrieol cp:r\tiona booiuii It saustd 3 And you sot this typo of endorsement from 4 thn medical pro'nooion, ara you lilcr.ly to concara yoursalf 5 with whsthor n notorial is toxic or not? 6 T1R. LEVINSON: Now that is an argumentativa 7 answer. Unfortunately, that is not ray question 8 to you.. 9 Th&llionido aft ons time was thrown out, to , 10 by ths pharmaceutical houses as a product and 11 nodical people used it and what happened to that? IS That's not a vary valid position. 13 I'n not <7,oing to arcus with you .however. 14 My point is 3imnly that in 1975 after ths 15 expc-rinentation they suddenly found that there'b 16 noopl'aams of all kinds by exposure to vinyl 17 chloride, based on your answer here. 18 Q Now my question to you 13 this: Vlas it over found 19 out before* 1975 by any testing of Union Carbide? 20 A No. 21 Q As a nettsr of fact, do you know v.'hat Mellon 22 Institute for Research did in the wsy of testing back in 23 1937 and 19*7 in connection v;ith your product? o 2*1 A I havo fiven you -- I asked that they summarize ifc 25 for r:u ijnd I pacoed this on to you. UCC 070484 / /"'ll (, M r'4t. , 4 Vi >- - | 103 1 /111 i'li3 h'Ot work thry dll with relation to poly o 2 vinyl chloride, I peoaed cn to you. 3 Q All right. 4 As a tnettor of fact, In answer to Number 45, which 5 I rcl'orr:d to lr. this lott:?r of September 1978, thsre'a no 6 mention made of a 1937 to3t b7 Or. Smyth or raaorach at the* 7 Mellon Institute, la there? 84 Excuse me>. 9 Movr this particular interrogatory limitu Itself 10 to work dcr<a at tha requsst or behest of Union Carbide. 11 Q Are you telling ms, than, that Union Carbide did 12 not ask the Mellon Fesearch people or Dr. Smyth to do any 13 tasting for you on your behalf? 14 A Except for the items listed. 15 Q Well, which itsms did they actually do for Union 16 Carbide? 17 A The skin Bsnsitization, the feeding study, one or two. 18 Now these are spread over a considerable period of time. 19 Q As a matter of fact, the only thing thoy did on 20 your behalf, you say, is one or two, and that la in answer 21 to Question 45, correct? 22 A Yes. Q That ia the skin sensitisation test in 1943 and -- 23 o 24 A ICo, no. Thsac wore multiple tests. Q v/hat's that? A You'll note that thor 25 UCC 070485 J 1 vrr- five. 2 Q All r. I'll rrrrt It. 3 "F1vg Union Carbids Corporation vinyl chloride 4 rccina wsrt t.Ttr.d for skin sensitization on human subjects. 5 u we.r noted in over 200 subjects. 6 Monomer content of fcha resin Is not known. Union Carbide 7 Corporation's Industrial Hygiene Fellowship, 1943." 8 Mow lot me understand this. 9 Union Carbide Corporation established an Industrial 10 Hygiene Fellowship at Ifoiion Institute for Research? 11 A Yes. 12 Q They paid for it? 13 A Yes. 14 CJ And they eer.t some doctor up to do sorso rang arch 15 along these lin"8 correct? 16 A Yes. 17 Q And he, in turn, did skin sensitization tests on 18 humcn subjects of the various products; that is, the five 19 rosins manufactured by your company? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Okay. 22 Mow his solo function was Just skin sensitization 23 tests, right? 24 A No, no. lie would do isany other types of testing. These 25 UCC 070486 A -- A S * " 10 3 1 o2 - * |^| 3 Q The PVA? , 4 0 Okay, A Yea. 5 How what-made you have that test dons? Did you 6 hii.vt problems with skin sensitization in 19437 7 A No. 8 Out we didn't w~nt to have problems. 9 Q Well, for example, did jtu check at that particular 10 time problems with carcinogens, this particular problem being 11 a carcinogen? 12 A I wculd say considering the feeding teat -- o 13 Q Now I -- all right, go ahead. 14 A Wa did do, as I say, one of the two long-term funding 15 tests that were conducted on this material. 16 Q Wall, what is your answer? I don't understand. 17 A Wall, you say we did no carcinogen testing. 18 19 nevertheless, if I were going to test PVC for carcinogenicit 20 thm X would do it the way It's dens by Smyth in -- 21. Q No, no, Mr. Wheeler. I don't want to argue with 22 you, but on the other hand wouldn't you Just be testing 23 purs toxicity? 24 If a worker pot this dust in his mouth and O swallowed it, ycu v/ouldn't want him to die from the toxic 25 UCC 070487 'Vr - :ct ICu 1 clcront involved in this product, would you? 2 A If I msre going to do that, I would do no nors then 3 tte so-called 4nttN0ff9VG|9E3H^kK; which usually involves 4 ingestion over a period of 23 days. 5 Q How dc ycUtnew that wasn't dons haro? 6 A Bocausa it ran for two years. 7 0 Wow was there any carcinogen test dens for c&nesr 8 of the lungs by ir.hlatiu? 9 A No. 10 Q So they weren't concerned with cancer in that 11 particular area? 12 o 13 14 MR.MOLLIUQSHSAD: Objection to the form of the qua3tion. Q U.C.C. was not concerned with that particular 15 product as a carcinogen reacting on the lungs? 16 MR, - HOLLlWGSiiEADs Same objection. 17 18 A ' MR. LEVIJJSOM: You can answsr it. As I mentioned oarlier, vi 19 20 *9m+mmwn AU'^IIS aw*--uywi iui.UW.ft.ftitf 21 twimy Ti Hisl IIIII Mwiwfa^BiJ.1 An. 22 Q Are you testifying at this particular point as 23 a medical expert new or b.3 a chemical expert? o 24 A I*pi simply reporting what I've read in the literature. 25 Q But ycu, yoursslf, havo no first-hand knowledge UCC 070488  ; ' - ; -O 1 2 3 7 / .\ 4 - '5 6 7 8 . - ! O s 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 J 18 - 19 ' 20 21 22 23 o 24 25 - <V-ret 107 of r.T'dical trrtir.j: o4* chemicals, do you? A X haw com.? V", d '"r MR. HOLLIMCSIiEAD: What does "first-hand knowledn?" r-an In the question? Mi he over do it^hi^Tjslf? MR. LEVINSON: Yea. Q Did you ever do it? Do you have training in chemical roletionahips end testing? Do you hold yourself out to be an expert in thia field? A Wo. I will say, though, that I have read extensively and I have a grant deal of informal training in thi3 area. Q Wall, your formal training now is Just what you've told ua about earlier, ia that correct? A Starting from about the period 1971 onward. Q All right. Just so wo understand each other, ycur entire professional carter has teen associated with Union Carbide Company? A Yes. Q Your entire technical training and professional training has b?sn through four years of college, during vrhich time you received a degree in Chemical Engineering, correct? A Correct. UCC 070489 1 0 V'jvt rrly cthrr hy--in?.nr hrc brrn Iceturno o 2 cr t reri'yie tr'-ir, " or.r-dmy or a little more thsn ona- 3 <5ey bEBin from various people you've por.e end lictened 4 to? 5 A Yus. 6 Q All right. 7 You've never operated a. laboratory or concerned 8 vouraclf withes ir.vasfcim-tion of madical/chemical problem? 9 A Only as regards to ny reading and study of the various 10 research reports and ny association with other toxicologists. n Q And everything you've done in connection with the 12 Investigation of the vinyl chloride monomer and its toxico o 13 logical effects upon workers or those people exposed to 14 It is act down In your report- which has been marked PW-l. 15 MR. HOLLINflSHEAD: Repeat that. 16 (The ponding question is read by the 17 Reporter.) 18 MR. LEVINSON: Is that a fair statement? 19 A If you'll give ms the latitude that in my report 20 I attainted to nummr.rise and k?ep It as eonc5.se and as 21 readable a.e poncible. 22 Q Well, your raport would appear to be well over 23 300 pagsa, I would ssy. o 24 It coT-.nriecc almost a total -- it does comprise 25 a largo notebook. UCC 070490 1 A:-* you ''life.;; ihi't la a. eoncioo report? 2 Arc you ' ll.'.n:* r-- 3 HR, TroLIitlJnCfCAD: X don't know whsra you 4 5?t tbs ri.rarj "333" from. 5 : \l311, it'3 about thres inoh03 6 high. '.7kit do you think? 7 MR. IIOLLIMGSTinAD; Tha report, itsolf, has 8 ba3n narked pw-."*. except for tha attachments 9 which ars document3 that he has not necessarily 10 written. TIio report*. itocl? nna about Co pacts. 11 !IR. LEVTISOJ!: Strlko that. 12 Q Mew you'vo given r.3 a report and attachments, 13 that is an appendix that you used to make part of your 14 report, correct? 15 A Y33. 16 Q And that's what I hava In front of ns now, 17 You can look at It. 13 that correct? 18 A Ysb. 19. MR. HOLLIMasrcAD: Unless you let bin look 20 at ovary single page in thoro, I object to it 21 because it'a your document. 22 . MR. LEVriSOlT: Well, lock at It. 23 MR. nOLhlllGfn.'lAD: I don't Intend to nit 24 hers an.1 1st him look at over 300 pages to o--e what you put in that report. UCC 070491 * / '-'I'-Tltr - direct ___ i 110 1 T:n mitmesr: I would either talcs the next o2 w>sk to loo!: l- it or --* 3 /4 5 6 MR. L2VHJ30N; Woll, take my word for It. Thlo la your report. This is the rsporfc you gave m-e cr Uollingshond gavo me. MR. HOLLINGSiisAD: Wall, that we'ro happy .7 to do. 8 But cion't ask him to substantiate that that 9 la ao. 10 I'll taka your word for it that you've got n hare In this ton* whatever we've sent you. But 12 you'ra not going to anle him to state that that's 13 no. 14 MR. LEVINSOH: All right. 15 Q Lot mo ask you this question: Look at your 16 reports, tha ones that you have in your hand. That's Just 17 the basic report and not tha appendix to it. Look at that 18 and tell mo if there's anything else you wish to add to that report by way of any further information, research 19 20 or knowledge you havo concerning the toxicological effects 21 of VC as contained in the FVC that people wore exposed to. MR. aOLLINOSMSAD: I object to it and I 22 direct him not to answer. 23 MR. LEVINSON: All right. 24 Cl Mow you have befero you a report which you told un 25 UCC 070492 1 corigins all tin work uhich wis Gone by Union Carbide In 2 connection with toting of thu yurticuler product, 13 that 3 corrcct? , 4 A. With ths qualification that I have attempted to moke it 5 as brief and as rdad&bls aa possible. 6 Q Wall, lot ns tall you this right now, Mr. Whooler: 7 , We're her* to toko your deposition and find out everything 8 ycu know about what he* beppenod in the background of PVC 9 manufacturing. 10 Now if you'ra telling me at this point that the 11 infornation you*vs given us in your report is brief, my 12 question is this: Is there anything sine that you haven't 13 told us about ths toxicological effects of VC on the 14 person exposed to it that you may know about by way of 15 testing or actual -- 16 MR. HOLLIIIGSHEAD: That question is SO 17 broad, I would object to it and direct him not 18 to answer it. 19 MR. LEVINSON: Well, then. I'll have ths 20 witness back on a motion. 21 MR. KOLLINGSHEAD: You car. bring any motion 22 you lilts. That's your privilege. 23 But that question in its current form is o 24 25 totally .improper. It's improper to ask him if there's anything i UCC 070493 j 1 o2 hr* wishes to odd. Hr? has supplied an expert report and as pert of that expert report he has 3 determined what Is necessary to advise you of 4 end, ultimataly, the Court will assess the basic 5 for v.lrf^yer his opinion may bo. 6 Mow to ank him if thoro'o anything in the 7 manufacturing history of Union Carbide, in effect. 8 which is what you*re asking, that ha has left 9 out -- 10 MR. LEVINSON: No, no. I'm not asking that. 11 MR. HOLLINOSHEAD: -- I find that totally 12 improper. o 13 14 ' MR. LEVINSON: I'm not asking that. I'm asking him if he knows of any other 15 testing that was done, besides what is in the 16 report marked PW-1, that he hasn't given us in 17 this report, concerning the toxicology of this 18 particular product. 19 THE WITNESS: Testing by v;hom? 20 MR. LEVINSON: 3y Union Carbide. Either 21 by them directly or by anyone else at the requ st 22 of Union Carbide. A Wall, sir, I tried to include everything in this report 23 24 which was pertinent. As I said earlier, I have not included very dstall 25 UCC 070494 - OSr.-et 113 1 2 3 y ,4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21. 22 23 24 25 bocr.use I would h**ve r.ni;d ur with o ecr.olrtcly unmanage able packrr*, to I have, lr. effrct, suirmerised It. Hew I nay have left 3ome things out through err r, but insofar ta I knew thin is a final end complete documsnt. Q ' All How look at your er.svrer ee set forth In the letter of Mr. Holilngshrad dated December 19 1978, and toll mo 3f that Its complete or if you wish to add anything to It. MR. HOLLINGSHEAD: I object to It on the grounds that you've supplied the defendant with what my count at the moment shows to be five sets of extensive Interrogatories. You've been supplied so far with four sets of Answers, with anotbor one being prepared and still to be submitted to you. Many of those Interrogatories overlap, as this one nay, and I don't know -- without looking at it. I would suggest that you ask him If there Is anything other then what Is In his Answers to Interrogatories and in his report that he may find necessary to be added. MR. LEVINSON: What Is Question 457 MR. HOLLINGSIIEAD: Actually, I think you'd have to go to the Interrogatory itself, because t UCC 070495 //V'5i"7*r - (!!nct 4 li/j 1 o2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 o 13 14 * 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 S3 24 Q 25 It rnr. modified by Court Order. MR. LEVIURON: Whet Id 45? MR. UOLLIIIGSUEAD: I*il read the original question, If you wish, and then you can see the modification mads by the Court. "45. With response to the PVC rosins end any VCM monomers, If any, set forth all toxicologic studios associated with the subject rosins and (a) What tests wore conducted, If any? (b) Wcr only animals used for such tests? (c) Were the test animals and/or humans speclflcall* subjected to the affects of Ingested resin dust particles as inhaled or swallowed? (d) Were the test enlmals subjected to varying levels of VCM in embien*. air that is inhaled under controlled conditions? (e) What were the levels of residual free VCM in the redns ingested by the test animals? (f) What were the specific findings from those kinds of teats?" MR. LEVINSON: All right. Then the Court, pursuant to your objection. said that this question should be answered with the following addendum: "Pursuant to the Court Order of March 23* 1973, thin answer should be limitsd to toxicological studies per- i* UCC 070496 '.l?r - d'vct ..J ivj 1 O2 formd by or at tiis request or behest of Union Carbide." 3 BY MR, LEVINSON: /4 Q Now I ask you to look at the answer given and 5 real It,* If you wtrth, and than toll ns if that'e e complete 6 answer to the question or If you wish to add anything. If 7 you wish to add anything now, toll us. C MR. KOLLIMGSHEAD: Wall, while he's looking 9 at that, lot ns state that If you wish that kind 10 of response. I'll ask him -- not at th noraont 11 12 O 13 1*' parhsps -- to go back over all of tha Intorrogatory Answers that wo'vs supplied and to Indicate If thora's anything contained In another answer which ought to be tacked onto that. 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 Q 8,1 25 MU. LEVINSON: Well, Mr. Hollingshead -- MR. HOLLINGSHEAD: And then I'll supply you with It, If that's the case. MR, LEVINSON: Well, Mr. Hollingshead, I assumed this wa3 a complete answer that you gavo us pursuant to Court Order. MR. HOLLINGSHEAD: So do I. MR. LEVINSON: I assumed you weren't trying to hide things that should be in there. Now I also assumed Mr. Wheeler, who Is your expert. drew ur> the unswor to that question and not you. UCC 070497 O r* 1 S! / 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 ' 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3V5 And I zrzzr.r.i, fi'rerors, since h? put everything l*i that pi.rMculsr r;i:*;jr, that he would know whether it'a comolat*. V? only purpose In asking the question Is I don't'want, to be surprised In court by something else. MR. BOLLINGSHEAD*. You will certainly not bo surprised in court by anything else. But what I'm saying is that you have taken the tack of asking five acts of Interrogatories, many of which overlap to a great extent. In other words, you're asking the same question from many different angles, end I don't know what you're seeking to obtain by it. tfe havo dons our best to supply whatever answers are appropriate to each of those questions and I assume that Number 45 hes been answered complexly and accurately and that thoro is nothing mlPRlng. And if I find out that there is anything contained elsewhere in any of the other answers that mlrht even arguably go under 45, I'll advise you of it. But I don't care to be put in the position of having to by tied down to one sot, to one answer UCC 070498 /... 1 2 3 \4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 o 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 cr. o.'.'; acn-vrt'.uro t ouch no Number 300 or compiling. . MR. LnViriSON: Now, now, Mr. Hollingshead, then-.: 's no point in racking cunmationc or arguments at X don't wish to ha involved in that. But X do object to the position that wa hays put five sets of Interrogatories by iiiirant tack. Now you're a seasoned trial lcwy3r end I think you've made objections to most of these Interrogatories at different tinea, and if there's anything improper tha Court will sustain your position. New these requests wera all subsequently answered and I assumed they tore ansv3rsd properly because the Court erdsred you to answar then. MR. SOLLUICSIfSAD; Mr. Levinson, I would answer then properly if the Court ordered ir.e to do so or not. MR. LEVINSON: The Court so found. MR. IIDLLINGSMSAD! No, they weren't -- MR. LRVIN30N: Wall, I object to this on th* record and let r.c- cny this, Mr. No211ngshead: UCC 070499  & o 1 t / \V`> >I r - ; j X'.3 1 "his is ns tl^-j to g:.t invclvad la this sorb of 2 ^h-.aani, If v;c have to try the cass, lie'll 3 try It. 4 M3. HOLLI'JOSUZAD: Are yai suggosting It'a 5 Dhsnanigths? 6 M3. LEVINSON: I don't cars to eo Into it. 7 V/hsn you 3ucG23t it on the record that I'm 8 using different tacka and subversive arrangements 9 in order to -- 10 MR. HOLLINGSIIEAD: I didn't say that at all. 11 I said I didn't know what your point was 12 in asking ths aar.o interrogatory four tinea. 13 14 ` I1R. LEVINSON: V/e 11, what inference can we d?aw from that? 15 MR. ROLLINGSHEAD: What tho hsarnr or reader 16 puts to it. 17 HR. LEVINSON: Precisely. 18 And that's ths inference I'm getting et. 19 MR. HOLLIIJGSIIEAD: Off tho record. 20 (DIscuaslon off the record.) 21 MR. HOLLINGSIIEAD: Back on the record. 22 BV MR. LEVINSON: 23 Q Novi give us the answer, as best you can. Read 24 that particular document and tell U3 whether that fairly 25 embodies sil the testing that was dcr.s. UCC 070500 C:Ct 1- A Insofar no I know, it was dons, up and down, v*. 2 which woo to tho boat of my knowledge, and there la at. 3 no chance at this nonsnt. 4 Q All right. \ 5 How whea._you first started manufacturing PVC In 6 Chariaston, did you also manufacture tho VC, the original 7 vinyl chloride? 8 A Yes. ' ' 9 Q How do you ctill manufacture polyvinyl chloride? 10 A Wa operate the solution vinyl chloride resin procsss. 11 MS. LEVINSOK: I didn't hear you. 12 A Vi a operate only the solution vinyl chloride rosin process, which is the original one referred to. 13 14 Q Do you still manufacture the vinyl chloride? A No. 15 16 Q When did you stop manufacturing vinyl chloride*? A I think that'3 in my -- excuse me. I'm ours you want 17 that back. That's yours. 18 (A document is handed to Mr, Levinson by 19 the witness.) 20 That's in my listing. 21. Q In 1947, I believe? 22 A 1957. 23 Well, 1947 was when we changed tho vinyl 24 chloride process and went to the dchydrochlorination of 25 ucc -5 ^ r 9 T *r ^4* X f.i wiriii chloride rrd th-n we wnt comolctoly out of o 2 vinyl ehlnrid* business In 1967 find began buying from Dow 3 Chsr.icr.l. 4 Q Why did you stop manufacturing th<S vinyl chloride? 5 A Penu".!i onr. process v:ea obsolete and tha high co3t. 6 0 Now when vinyl chloride was manufactured by you 7 prior to 1957 was that manufactured In a closed system? 8 A Tea. 9 Q Now explain to me what a "closed system" la, &3 10 you describe It hers. 11 A The vinyl chloride process was a closed -- was operated 12 under proacur*, and an you pumped In ethylene dichloride you o 13 rsn it through a cracking furnace and you debydrochlorinated 14 it ir.to vinyl chloride and hydrogen chloride. 15 Tho vinyl chloride then was distilled to yield 16 a refined product. The hydrogen chloride was either 17 combined with acetylene to make additional vinyl chloride 18 via the so-called synthesis process or it was neutralised 19 and dumped at sodium chloride or caloium chloride. 20 Q Did you ever at any time In manufacturing this 21 product cucpsct any rtcnftor element in PVC? 22 MR. HOUilNOSHKAD: In any regard? MR. LEVIhaoMi Toxicologically, to any 23 24 D person exposed to it. A Only with regard to acute axpeaure. 25 UCC 070502 ' i;?i 1 0 And vhrt bho danger thora? O 2 A The :mn brerr.a drunk, giddy. No was likoly to fall. 3 And In tha literature there wara several fatalities 4 which were the result of people being exposed to -- I think 5 in one of my Lhrrwrra I've listed the physiological offsets 6 of vinyl chloride, but I'm thinking in terns of five to ten 7 por eont concentration in air, which will render you un 8 conscious. 9 How I could be off in my memory of that somewhat. 10 Q All right. 11 New tha product -- were you also manufacturing 12 the PVC, Itself, in a closed system or an open system? o 13 A The rasin was manufactured in a closed system. The 14 resin was recoversd in what 70U might term an open system. 15 Or to explain that somewhat further, vinyl 16 chloride has to be maintainsd under pressure, under the 17 condition of the reaction. 18 So you react it to tha particular processes, 19 the dsgr?? cf conversion, ar.d than you. transfer that to 20 a second closed aystsm which you atrip off, the unconverted 21 vinyl chloride, and at that point then the rssin is 22 usually either given further treatment or it may be 23 centrifuged and air dried in some form of hot air dryer, 5 24 and then at that point I would say it's in the open. 25 Q Now the resin you produced that had the greatest UCC 070503 1 2 3 4 / 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21, 22 23 o 24 25 -H ` f * ` - 1/ r.::;t cf r`r * polvvinyl chloride noncmor w&3 \r[\z A. r:.::In. Q Now was this suspension resin shipped to ATC In Pcith Amboy during the years 1063 to 1970? A I think. w"E^ni:cd In 1962. 0, All right. And did -- THE WITNESS: Excuse ms. Lot ms chsck that, Sob (Indicating, Mr. Holllngshaad), you've Got that toblo there. HH. KOLLINGSIIEAD: There's boon a chart that's btten. supplied to the plaintiffs In # Answers to Interrogatories. Ys, it's attached to tie Answers to the Supplemental Interrogatories. A V/s started shipment to ATC In 1962. MR. HOLLXHGSHEAD: That Ieohs like "3" to mo. A It was In 1963. The facilities at ATC were built In 1962. Q All right. Now In 1963, t/aa the bull: of the resin you shipped to then, that la, the PVC, was that the solvent, bulk or suspension typa resin? A The bulk type. UCC 070504 o / o o / *.T.': - direct *-^ 1 MR. IfOLLirnOHSAO: By "bulk", you coon the 2 majority? 3 MR. LEVINSON: I should raphrass it. 4 Q Was thn majority of the rssin chipped suspension. 5 bulk op solvent rsain that w.13 manufactured? 6 A Well, let me chsck what I have hero. 7 Q Whilo you're checking, check for the figures for 8 1963 to 1970. 9A I'll have to give you those at a later date. 10 MR. ROLLINGSHEABs The chart, I might add. 11 doesn't break it down. 12 It only refers to polyvinyl chloride. 13 Now I might hove been mistaken when I thought 14 it referred to something else. 15 Q In other words, you can't answer that question 16 now, is that correct? ' A 17 I can enswer it in part. 18 Q Well, answer as well as you can, then. A 19 20 Okay. I want to use the same answer I used here. 21 In a typical year during the period I960 to 1965, 22 61.5 per cent was solvent resin, 12.8 par esnt was bulk rasin and 25*7 por cent was suspension resin. 23 MR. HOLL.TNC3HEAD: The answer is on Page 27 24 of rw-i. 25 __ ( f po p 0/ p 1 Q Are o. 2 thin?.? tho Sara.-* 3 A Right. 4 0 So during those years 9^?WPBW|!!1 T!>1 Uff prudu to 5 6 A Yea. [ c 0 # LO P 0 0 0 If O .7 Q And that particular type of reoin 8 9a 10 Q Now I know I ballsvo X asked thiB quastion before, 11 but I forgot the enswer for the moment: When wore you firot 12 able to make tasting for the RVCM in your various resins? 13 A I think I mentioned that we had done some initial 14 testing which was quite gross, and I could not identify 15 tho year. 16 Q Well, you've given me figures here In this 17 particular report of yours as to tho RVCM's in these 18 various type rosins. 19 Now whan vrare those figures made? 20 A They were nado primarily in 1974 and 1975. . 21 Q So you have no Idea of how it measured in I960 to 22 1970, do you? 23 A Only to the extent- that the processes were basically 24 the sane, so you would expect tho materials to be approxi 25 mately t;ha sane composition. t UCC 070506 J ,, -t ^ f 1?.' 1 MS. H0T,T,TMns!r5.\Ds T object to the Torn 2 of* th* nuerstinn. 3 Q Did It become aware after 1970 that this 4 particular product -- PVC end Itc monomer -- had certain 5 tori.colc-l??.l effects? 6 MR. HOLLINOSHEADt Same objection. 7 MR. LEVINSON: Do you understand that? 8 THE WITNESS: Well, should I answer the 9 question? 10 MR. LEVINSON: Yes, answer the question. 11 MR. HOLLIMGSHSAD: You can answer the 12 question. 13 My objection goes to the pert of tho 14 question -- in ease Mr. Levinson ceres to correct 15 it -- that makes it a fact that It has those 16 carcinogenic qualities. 17 A Well, we were aware. 18 19 Q All ritfit. 20 Well, did you -- 21. A Now we rlso were mado aware in 22 a connection had been made with ary of 1974., that And 23 I -- now I*n dictractad. o 24 25 MR. LEVINSON: Road back the last question. (The requested question is read by tho UCC 070507 / Vr 1 Reportnr.) 2A Okay. 3 I would liko to change ny answer 3lightly. 4 MR. LEVINSON: Vail, you can start all over 5 fi.rc.ln. ~-If you want to strike out your answer, 6 you can start again. 7 THE WITNESS: Okay. 8A In my opinion, to this dato the feet Is that PVC Is 9 an Inart material and Is essentially nontexte to humans. 10 It's a proven fact that the only toxic material is vinyl 11 ehlorida monomer, and it's only tho amount of rosJdual 12 vinyl chloride monomer which may be left in tha resin which o 13 could conceivably be toxic. 14 ' MR. LEVINSON: That's what we'ra talking abou 15 I'm not trying to mislead you, Mr. Wheeler. 16 Perhaps I was inartistic in setting up the 17 question. 18 A Now as I mentioned earlier, we were informed -- and 19 it's a matter of rscord -- in late 1973 that Naltonl had 20 seen tumor3 in his rats at the level of 250 ppm and we 21 meda arrangements to gat this data released and we took it 22 to NIOSIT and we still had not seer, any connection between 23 the Maltoni rr.t data and human toxicity until 24 rc&do the connection and announced it in 25 Q All right. UCC 070508 1 So you felt that there wr.o no connection between 2 Kr.ltcni's report lr. 1972 and this particular vinyl chloride 3 .monomer? 4 MR. HOLLIMGSUEAD: I object to the form of 5 tho question. I don't -- well, I find that confusing. 7 MR. LEVINSON! All right. 8 MR. HOLLINwS'rTEAD: You connectid the report 9 to the PVC. I don't think you meant to do era. 10 MR. LEVINSON: All right. 11 Q What did you say about Maltoni's report a moment 12 ago? 13 A Okay. 14 I said that Maltoni -- now this was a second 15 hand report, In that it was rectorial which was reported to 16 Imperial Chemical Industries, who wore a sponsor In the 17 Maltoni work, and then it was later relayed to the Vinyl 18 Chlorido TeakForce of MCA by Dr. David Duffisld in late 19 '73, under pain of a secrecy agreement. 20 And the industry did go back to tho European 21 sponsors and asked permission to release this data and wo 22 did react with J^^pSSSBCoUUbi^n mid '73. 23 Wo discussed tho situation with him at that 24 ftimo and, bawienlly, he oald that he thought -- ho said he 25 felt we were doing aril acting in tho proper fashion, so wo UCC 070509 / ;* r * ui:vct 1 toe!: -- 2 Q Who 3,o Dr. r*?rcun Key? 3A 4 Head of NIOSH at tho tires, liH. LEVINSON: I'm sorry, 5 Aro-you finished with your answer? 6 THE WITNESS: No, I*m not through. I Just .7 ran out of wind. 8 Q All right, centinuo with your answer. 9A Then, L3 I cay, tho next stop in the consideration 10 was the connection made byA^anna in, I guess, 11 when ho pointed out that ho was having IS o 13 Now let's Just hack up a little on that answer 14 and say that we -- were making extensive efforts to 15 ~ 16 Q At what time woo this? 17 Back injfl^-re had made a commitment, which wo 18 19 were trying to carry out, to operate and make sura that 20 no person wa3 exposed higher than 50 ppm. 21. Q You 3ay you tried to do this in 1969? A We began this in 1969 end wa wars roe.sonably successful. 22 Q Why did you basin it in 1969? 23 o A Because of the conclusions and assumptions resulting 24 from the Study. 25 UCC 070510 V".; - di. (.ct 4 -J 130 1 Q in 1569, then, your company had the feeling or 2 it felt thr.t tha vinyl chloride mcr.omsr wa3 in oemo *.;ay 3 responsible for tha aoroostoolyeia? 4 A Vo endorsed' the roport and that was an assumption of the 5 report, and wo dicT'act on tho racommendations In good faith. 6 Q All right. 7 But ray question to you is this: You assumed then 8 that the report wa** accurate and that there was a acnnecti^n 9 between vinyl chloride monomer and acrooeteolyoia? 10 A No, we did not. The roport assumed this. 11 Q And you did not assume tho roport to be correct? 12 A Vo accepted the Yeport in its recommendations and 13 wont with it. 14 Q Well, I don't understand the connection. 15 Perhaps you can clarify It for mo. You have tha report 16 before you. 17 A Yes. 18 Q You fait you acted pursuant to the report? A Yes. 19 20 Q But you did not accept tha contents of tha report 21 as being valid? 22 A I still felt that there had not been a satisfactory S3 conmction established between vinyl chloride and acro24 cjcoolyol3 at that time. Q vie re you tho person who had to make a conclusion 25 UCC 070511 / 1 * 1 rr It f,?:;/'Vr .V' r* 1 ; ? ? o 2 A. "o, 3 4A Q Well, vhat we.a It? It W5 alzo mads by Carl 7 who went the other 5 vc-.y 6Q He felt there v;c.s connection? 7 A He felt this 13 whet we should do, end as head of the 8 mrdleal toxicologists th*t*e what we did. 9Q 10 new. All right. You*re getting one step ahead of me 11 Just so I understand It, you're telling roe that 12 you felt, despite the fact that the report cane out statins o 13 thla and despite the fact that Union Carbide followed the 14 report in trying to get their VC.M down to below 50 ppm, 15 that the oubotanco of the report was Invalid? 16 A 17 18 Q By that you meant what? That VCM was not the 19 cause of acrocstcolysls? 20 A I felt r.o connection had been made. 21 Q But, on tha other hand. Dr. Darnohl felt there 22 WE3, la that correct? 23 A I think you'll have to ask him about his own conclusions. 0 24 0 Well, I thought you just said so. 25 A (No response.) UCC 070512 / H -. ?-l' *' v^ * *y 1 oV 2 +riR. IT you can't answer the -i".* ricf.n, dcr.'t ensv-r it. 3 HR. IIOTjI.T*,TQo!rP,AD t I thin): you could p.sk 4 him net whr.t Dr. Pemebl felt, but If he's aware 5 of any Vrtpre5 e icn by Dr. Pomohl. 6 MR. L57TNS0M: X thought ho Just said some 7 thing to that effect. 8 I'll rephrase tho question. 9 Q Did Dr. Parcchl over toll you ho felt there was 10 some connection between the two? 11 A No. 12 Rut he said that he felt -- in view of the a 13 situation, ho ndorsod and felt that wo should accept the 14 50 ppra. 15 Q And this was in 1969? 16 A Yes. 17 Q But your particular suspension operation, as the 18 manufacturer of Mfl^0|ff^*typo polyvinyl chloride, still 19 hud in it aa late as 1974 iWw InfftpWfmfc? 20 A Now wo're putting apples with oraug53. 21 Q I know exactly what you're Bayinn. They're two 22 different thinrs. 23 But it had that amount of RVCM in it? o 24 A That vn3 about an average situation. 25 0 All right. / UCC 070513 o 4 0 1 wher. p product or polyvinyl chloride, 2 typ*1 was r.MppPi cut ccntnininr; or 3 having attached to It or Inside of It' 4 MKf7G' 5 that ia to c.uy^"thY-vc, would It leave the PVC and dissipate 6 Into tho nir? 7 A Yaa, That'a what I say In ray report, too. 8 Q So It's trus; ?- It r.otf that tho prefer the 9 cmeunt of RVCM, the greater amount of VC In the atmosphere 10 In any plaea that this particular product Is stored or 11 placed? 12 A How you're saying the greater amount of residual, 13 and I will say yes, for a particular material. 14 Don't forget now there w?ie three varieties or 15 maybs -- 16 chloride. 17 MR. LEVXHSOM: All right. Perhaps X should 18 raphress that. 19 Q For adNMRftP-typa resin, which you Indicated 20 to ms at sons point you don't know when It was measured, 21. but it had Q ppm of RVCM and the had^^ppm 22 of RCVM and for the ypo it wa m Of RVCM. 23 A Yea. 24 Q So is it reasonable to assume then, if you havo 25 sunp.r.sion rosin in a_roon that contains 850 ppm's of UCC 070514 1' TiVCK you'll h'vfi & p.r'rtv-r d^rsc: cf VC In the air? 2 A VJoil, Af you'll Give nr this: Unfortunately, t 3 ere subdivisions of ousrsr.3icn PVC. vr r.nds, In Texas City, 4 a- suspension -- 5 I!R."Er'/IMSOT!: Yea'll have to keep sour 6 vole* up. I can't hear you. 7 THE VIITMESS: Sorry. I nunble. 8 A We nado s^spemAnn renin vinyl chloride horrrprlynsr, 9 which was tho most porous of the material Intended to lose 10 vinyl chloride the most rapidly. 11 V.'o also me.ds an ethylene vinyl chloride copolymer, 12 which was sor.2what losa porous and lost its vinyl chloride 13 relatively slowly. 14 And we made a third material, which was vinyl 15 chloride vinyl acetate polymer, which ws3 quite glassy 16 and nonporous and it contained on tha order of 1,000 ppm 17 of residual vinyl chloride, but the damn stuff would not 18 cc out and weather off. 19 So for th5 purposes of my rsport I obese the 20 number based on the othylens vinyl chlcrlda copolymer, 21 which I felt represented the wcr3t case of vinyl chloride 22 emission. 23 Q veil, between the years 1950 and 1970 do you o 2*t know what type of r.usoe-usicn realr. you were shipping to 25 ATC? UCC 070515 J 1- _ 1 1 3 It the ethylene vinyl chloride copoly^r or 2 cv.fi of t? o';t.-rr.? 3A 4 V/a ehippoi eon of all fchrca that I Just wont through. Q And do you fcavo tha figures tlsors in that chart 5 that you havs in' front of you, tha figureo showing the 6 different typos that ira shipped during that period of tine 7 A No. 8 I can get then for you, if you want them. 9 Q You don't know tha exact breakdown at this point? 10 A I can't quote you any exact breakdown at this point. 11 All I'm 3aying is in my report in order to be 12 very conservative I chose whst I felt to be the worst 13 case* situation with regard to the type of resin input to 14 ATC, and I would strongly feel that if that were vinyl 15 chloride vinyl acetate copolymer or if that were vinyl 16 chloride homopolynar, that the number which I have quoted 17 as far es airborne vinyl chloride mononsr-would be much 18 lower. 19 q All right. A Now if you want 20 an approximate breakdown, I would say that 15 per cent 21 of the 25.7 on here -- yea, about 15 per cent of tho 22 25.7 would bo the so-callsd ethylene vinyl chloride co- 23 polymsr which I chore as the worst case. 24 o About 50 per cnt vroxsa be the vinyl chloride 25 hcnopolymcr, or straight FVC. UCC 070516 1 13G 1 Ansi the 2-vjnriiRciir would bo the vinyl chloride 2 vinyl &c abuts copolymer. 3 Q All right. 4 Now you also Indicated on Page 47 ~ 5 A Kow that rlght'how 13 strictly an opinion with regard 6 to the fractions. 7 HR. LEVINSON: All right.. 8 Q Now when were these figures ***<?., thesa figures 9 that you are talking about? You are now n&a.aurlng ppn 10 with some dogrsa of fraction of KYCM, correct? 11 A Yea. 12 Q When ware these figures arrived at? Was it In o 13 1975, would you say? 14 A We started working out one or two pieces of informa 15 tion late In -- It was in late '73. We have a grsat deal 16 of Information In '74. 17 Q Now you have practically no information, or do 18 you have any information for tha years I960 to 1970? 19 A Essentially, none. 20 Q All right. 21 Now you*vo given ma in tha paragraph above the 22 one you've Just rsad from on Pago 47 -- you've stated the 23 rosin RVCM, what the time of bagging at ATC was and you'vo o 24 given me thrso breakdowns as to solution rosin, bulk 25 resin and suspension rosin. Do you see that? UCC 070517 / V; 1 -- rtT11 Vos. 2 ware those figur"- rr.de? 3 A This was baaed on the 1974 dots. 4 Q Again, you don't know what the data was in I960 to 5 1970 at ATC, do'you? 6 A Except for the fact that I said the processes were 7 basically unchanged. 8 Q Well, do you knew, for example, whet t.h conditions 9 wore at ATC for the years i960 to 1970 In comparison to 10 how they were In 1975, that Is, the physical conditions 11 of the plant Itself as to ventilation, as to heat, as to 12 any other factors of basEing? o 13 A 1 think that you have a much bettor description of 14 that from Mr. Archer. 15 Q That's fair enough. 16 So you can't tall U3 from your cvm knowledge? 17 A X base this on the conditions at ATC'in 1974. 18 Q Did you personally go to ATC in 1974 to get 19 these figures yourself? 20 A Wo. These came by way of Archer, and also part of 21 them came from Texas City, depending on tho need for the 22 information. 23 Q And who a Mr. Archer? 0 24 A Tom Archer, who was the Union Carbide representative 25 to ATC. UCC 070518 J -`r - " 1 Q And vh'.t :-?s 1:5a relation te ATC? In sorry, 2 I b Id eve you s'id h*. wr.e Union Carbides raprseentativs for 3 ATC. 4 A No, no, to ATC. 5 Q To ATCr - A Yes. 6 Q 4 4V*N < to**.*. ^ * liitf . , V IM mW f 7 MR. HOLLIMGSKEAD: Well, lot mo Interject 8 thlo: That of enures was part of Mr. .Maher's 9 deposition end he, of course, is the beet Judge 10 of it. 11 MR. LEVINSON: I know. 12 MR. HOLLINOSHEAD: I!r. Wheeler will tell 13 you as best ho can, but I think you already 14 have that information. 15 MR. LEVINSON: That's true. 16 But I want to hear it from Mr. Wheeler, 17 though, 18 A Well, he convoyed information from Carbide to ATC 19 and from ATC to Carbide. 20 He was, in effect. Carbide's agent to ATC. He was 21 not their Supervisor or anything else. Ho simply was the 22 agent. 23 Q Did you personally ever visit ATC? 24 A No. 25 Q You u;re never there in your lifetime? UCC 070519 / *'. v r* - *'- -1 1 t. No. o2 . T'.orxTrron-TnM): orr the record. 3 (nieces: 3:00 P.M.-3:05 P.M.) 4 MR. LEVINSON: Beck on the record. 5 P.eppnt the lust portion. 6 (The requested portion lo read by the 7 Reporter.) 8 THE WITNESS: May I clarify that a little 9 bit? 10 MR. LEVINSON: Surd. 11 A ATC 13 an i:.dependent contractor end I had no reason 12 to visit thorn. o 13 Q Now whan you say they were an Independent 14 contractor* do you know If they had any other customers 15 besides -- first of all, what was their business? 16 A Their business was operating the Union Carbide Bulk 17 Terminal facilities at Perth Amboy. 18 Q So that their only customer w&a Union Carbide? 19 A Insofar as I know. 20 Q And they cr.ly shipped to Union Carbido customers? 21. A Yes. 22 Q And they only received their product from 23 Union Carbide Company? o 24 A Yes. 25 Q The only product they had was Union Carblds UCC 070520 4 1 l i r* -- * s ^ <** O - w _ *- ^ o 2 A To H7 lc-oul- ;- : , 140 3 Q And Union Carbids wtuid bill the customer# 4 directly, the customers that thay shipped to? 5 A R1' 6 Hu t/ T7v 37*i*3^^iyimcnt took a aim view of this, 7 lift. LEVINSON: Off the record* 8 (Discus''ion off tho record.) 9 MR. LEVINSON: Back cn tha record. 10 A Mymrntfrencnt dioccuransd any unauthorised persons 11 dealing with contractors oth-ir than people such no Tom 12 Archer. G 13 Q Mall, X tfen't understand that. 14 You cay Tom Archer was an employe of Union Carbide 15 A Yes. 16 Q And he was in their Sound Brock plant in New 17 Jersey? 18 A He was tha nan who was to handle all communications 19 end whatever with -- 20 Q With ATC7 A -- ATC. 21 Now unless Tom Archer had viacar. to want me to 22 visit ATC, tbsrs was no reason and no way I could visit 23 ATC. That's whr.t I'm sayinn. 24 Q 25 Q Okay. Now I understand. New let's r;ct back to this business tf the determine UCC 070521 * ' -k/* 1 ticn r.t pcsfn': that r.c.roust..olysio was somehow 2 U.. C' 1 *'Ith VC. T b'*li r."!* V"" '"id *V,at it W*\3 In 1^C9 3 t:3 fir. Dornohl decided that you ought to get your ppm's 4 Cov.t. to 50 ppm. Your VC, rather. 5 A Or. D-rnohl. - 6 HP.. LfTVTlsOfl: I'm sorry. I'm not trying 7 to bs disrespectful. 8 MR. nOLtT'^t'.TiEAD: Off the record. 9 (Dlocusnion off tha record.) 10 fin. LSVIflSOII: Sack on tha roeord. 11 Q flow this wa3 In 19&9, I believe, Is that right? 12 A Right, o 13 0 flow did you ever change ycur technology at any 14 time, from 1069 to the present tires, in the manufacturing 15 of your product; that is, of PVC in an effort to get down 16 the residual vinyl chloride monomer count? 17 A Hot until l??1'., and you've got moot of the records of 18 the work that's been dons. 19 Q Wall, toll reo briefly what you did do in 1974 20 to your operations there to get the count down. 21 A Their Initial move was to increase the stripping time 22 and to raise tha torporaturoa of the stripping operation, 23 and ultimately they did have to install and change some 24 equipment, 25 Q Okay. ----------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- j t ' ' ` " v - J!; p 1 '-'ll, what did yc:i ~"t the count do1 rn to? Dy o 2 ths way, r/; this point in 197'J or 1975 you wnro working 3 with the Busponaion-typo manufacturing? 4 A Yea. 5 Q 'that did- you zm.t the r*aiiu.il vinyl chloride . 6 count down to? 7A 8 I'd have to look that up. I can't recall. Q Wall, I believo you told ua last time that under 9 the old system it was 360 ppm. 10 A Yss. 11 Q And what was it under the now advanced technology, 12 under this system? 13 A I'll have to givs you an estimate -- 14 Q What's your best estimate? 15 A -- which may or may not be what I've alraady told you 16 in some of the other papers. 17 The vinyl chlcrida homopolyr.or was lso3 than 100 18 ppm. 19 Q *> And you did that in 1975? 20 A Yes. 21 The vinyl chloride vinyl acetate copolymer, which 22 vre have an example there that I've quoted, that only got 23 down to about 500. 24 O Q Well, back in 1959 -- by tba way, what's ths 25 chronology page? UCC 070523 t 1 OT. HOLLI.'JOST'EAD: 27. 2 A It's Fee*' 27. 3 Q All right. 4 Now In 1955 ycu first hsd rsrsen to believ? or 5 thtro was sere discutsicn, rtthrr, according to ths 6 chronology, that there was a condition known as aero- 7 eatsolysis among PVC workers, and then In 1969 your company 8 at that point did somethin about It. I boliavo you 9 testified to that, 13 that correct? 10 A No. 11 Q Mollt maybe Ir7n phrasing It Improperly or In 12 correctly, tut ycu testified In 1959 that -- 13 A I'm cayins that In 1956 there wes a question as to 14 whether or not this condition kncim as acreouteclyois was 15 caused by exposure to vinyl chloride or something in tha 16 PVC plants. 17 Q All right. 18 And then in 1969 your company decided to got 19 their VC down to 50 ppin in tho atmosphere, right? 20 A Right. 21 rjocauro this was also part of our long-term 22 policy, you know, to try to minimize exposure to everything. 23 0 But r.y point Is that in 1969 something was dona 24 about it. Ycu tried to rot your VC down to 50 ppm in tho 25 atmosphere, correct? UCC 070524 * o o J V 1 /. 1', r.v:, t: ;r.1t Tc:' , iv, r-- tnllir;; about a 2 '.prcin! cf a TVC pi;:;';. 3 Vla'rc talking about the rccetcr area only. This 4 Is where the c.o:xx: teolysls c.cprared, and this did not 5 involve char:go a i;r i; vhneiary zo much as it involved ckangos 6 in the way you pi spared the vessels for entry prior to 7 cieaninE. 8 Q Regardless of what was dens or where it appeared* 9 you readied sene conclusion that above 50 ppm there might 10 bs aone dancer to anybody ' ::pcced to it, is that correct? 11 A We r.adr an assumption that this was a good possibility. 12 0 All right. 13 And I believe you've told us that you disagreed 14 with the assumption and Dr. Pornshl said, "Let's go along 15 with it." 16 A Eight. 17 Q Okay. 18 How after that did you label your product in any 19 v?ay, that there right be sorvs problem with thio thing to 20 the health of any person exposed to it? 21 A No, t;cause again, as I said, the r.crcosteolysio was 22 co.nfinod to the reactor arse and confined to one occupation 23 in that reactor nr?a, which wr.s the guy who went inside 24 the reactor and did the cleaning. 25 Q All right. UCC 070525 o i o .i * _* .*`4- t i*'/>%J* 1 -11 1 Old you feel or fill you have any concern fop tha 2 danger of tMs particular product to any people who might 3 bo ar-pocud to It at tha packaging plant of ATC? 4 A Ko, because wa folt that tha axpoouras at ATC wars 5 insignificant. 6 Q Whan yu say "wo", you were never thsrs, were you? 7 A No. 8 Q And you, personally, don't know what tha conditions 9 vara at ATC from I960 to 1970, do you? 10 A I'va had discussions with Mr. Archer and -- 11 Q No, no, no. I rsalias you trust have talked to 12 Kr. Archer. 13 My question is that you personally don't know 14 what the conditions wore there. 15 MR. HOLLXMGSHEAD: By "conditions", you 16 moan the physical layout? 17 MR, LEVISNON: Yes. 18 A Well, I can reconstruct that layout because I have 19 the drawings and I also -- well, don't forget I was 20 tho msn 5.n charge of the other end of this chain, which was 21 the loading and manufacture of rssin, the loading of 22 boxes and the loading of the chips in Texas City, and 23 so there wasn't -- there wasn't ell that much difference 24 between the two systems, 25 Q you, for exir.rO.'j, Mr. Wheelsr, do not know of your UCC 070526 i _ c'J "* *r 146 1 o'm personal knowlcdgo, during tho begging operations, o2 cr.ouet of du:;t in the air there, do you? 3 KR. HOLLINGSHEAD: Now is that question 4 with regard to the visual eyesight or as reported 5 in tables or graphs or anything? 6 HR. LEVINSON: Yes. 7 Do you understand my quostion? 8 THE WITHES": I understand your quostion. 9 KR. LEVINSON: Can you answer it? 10 A I did not have any knowledge of the conditions at have 11 ATC. I dc/knowledg* of packing lines which were operated 12 both in Texas and South Charleston, which were similar 13 in design to the ones at ATC. 14 Q All right. 15 Did you, for example, know what the ventilation 16 situation was at ATC in those years? 17 A Only what I'va boon told by Mr. Archer, 18 Q You, yourself, don't know from personal obaorvatic: 19 A No, with the exception -- don't forgot that I was 20 fo.sd.liar with the sane type of packaging lines in two 21 other plants. 22 Q All right. 23 New you say you're familiar with two other plants. o 2** Ia your familiarity with those two other plants tho soma 25 an it was with ATC or wore you actually physically present UCC 070527 t. ,, direct J 14*7 1 r.t tiic r^h.'T plmts? o 2 A I vrr.r, ac.turlly rhypirally prerrnt end In cherr? at th 3 other plants. 4 Q All rlr.ht. 5 Now t there any connection between the amount of 6 fino duct in tho air, that lo the white dust from the 7 powder of PVC, and the loose VC count? 8 MR. HOLLINCSUEAD: I confess, I don't under- 9 stand that question. 10 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure I understand it. 11 rat. LEVINSON: All right. 12 Ascuming we're in this room here and we're 13 14 bagging -- and this room la approximately 30 feet by 12 foot, Assume that we're bagging in this 15 room and assume the room is full of powder. 16 THE WITNESS: You're talking sout a powder 17 that's fino enough to be euspsnded in air? 18 MR. LEVINSON: Correct. 19 THE WITNESS: Okay. 20 Q Is there a graater danger of a higher VC count 21 than In a room where you don't have any dust in the air 22 from tha PVC? 23 THE WITNESS: Wall, are you wanting me to 24 ccir.ncrs a zero to -- MR. LEVINSON: No, no, no. 25 UCC 070528 V.";- * Mybe you don't understand. I'll give it to you n~tin. Q Say that we have twe rooms, both the same size. All right? A All right. Q And both rooms have PVC bags in thaw. A Right. Q Opon bags. Nov assume one room is full of dust end the other room has no dust, except that you have the PVC bags sitting there. Now is thara a greater danger from loose VC in tho room that's full of dust than in the other one? THE WITNESS: If you qualify it and say I'vo got tho cams kind of resin in each room. MR. LEVINSON: All right. I assumed that you knew we wore working with ths sane type of rosin. THE WITNESS: Exactly the osxio resin? MR. LEVINSON: Ves. A Then t-h&rs would bo no mors danger in ons room than in tho other. I think I tried to make this plain in ono of my reports or or.o of my intvrrosatoriee, whore I discussed the fact that v:s had investigated dispersion rosin in ths rospirtblo cuovy reng^ and it's very easily tmopsndod in sir J _ ' -- - .V- ___________________________________________________ ; jjfl 1 It start.* i off going into tlis dryer at 2,000 ppm, o 2 and thin vr:*-; by weight, and it was aerated roughly two 3 minutes, throe minutes, and then it came out in the beg 4 at something les3 than 200 ppm vinyl chloride monomer. 5 In oth^r words, if you got e very small respirable 6 particle, 10 microns or lsc3, the pathway from the inside T of ths particle to tha surface is os short that the vinyl 8 "biorida doesn't stay with the rcein but for very, very 9 short time, whsrena if you got a large 100-micron particle 10 and you got a long pathway for the vinyl chloride contained 11 to move through the solid to ths external air -- this is 12 why you could take a 100-micron suspension particle and o 13 ship it from Texas City to ATC end it would arrive there 14 containing a fair amount of residual monomer. 15 But, nevertheless, that 100-micron particle is 16 candy and you really have a vary difficult time suspending 17 a very coarse material like sand in the air. If 3 vary 18 hard to breaths sand unleos you shovel it in a guy's face. 19 Q Ars you suggesting, first of all, that VC In a 20 PVC particle is only on the insido of tho particle and a 21 perous PVC particle? 22 A Ho, no. I'm saying that it can be contained in tho 23 particle, regard lass of whether tha particle is porous o 24 or not. 25 Q Well, VC will adhsro both to tho outer as well no 1 Ii O ' v- 1 the inner p:irt of tin PVC particle, will it not? 2 A Mo,it will not. irn 3 Q Vfhnre doc3 it arlhcra to? 4 A It'8 contained within tie solid perfclcle. 5 Q Only? A Right. 6 The solid portion of ths particlo, if it's a 7 porous- particle. 8 Q As I understand your answer, than, it i.iax.33 no 9 dlfftranea how dusty the room might be with PVC dust, es 10 to th-3 relative danger of loose VC? 11 A In the case of the ATC operation, they were con| 12 aidsrably removed from ths plant and, in the first place. O 13 in ordor to have a room fairly filled with dust you would 14 have to have a very small particle size and, as I say. 15 the smaller the particlo size, the loss the inclination 16 for ths rscin to retain the vinyl chloride monomer. 17 Q All right. 18 So as I understand it then your position is -- 7 19 20 and you correct me if I'm wrong -- that under no circumstances, based cn what wno shipped to ATC by Union Carbide, l> 0 21 was there any danger to the employees from VC? 22 A I think that I tried to make that plain in my report. 23 Q Just tall me if thet's true or falsa, the state3, mont I Just mede. Is that your evaluation? 25 A Yen. 41 UCC 070531 i o 6j o 5: : c 1* 1 Q Okay. 2 There wre a point, v.*r.s there not, when Union 3 Carbide started to label their product coming out of 4 Charleston? 5 A Yes. --- 6 Q When wec that point? 7 A No, no, I bsg your pardon. The product coming out of 8 Charleston wac never law^ed. 9 Q Well, why wasn't the product coming out of 10 Charleston ever labeled? 11 A Because it had such a small amount of residual poly 12 vinyl chloride that OSHA accepted the fact that this was 13 not a significant hazard under their standards. 14 * Q Where was that particular product shipped? 15 A We were shipping dispersion rosin to many customers 16 up and down the East Coast. 17 Q Was it shippod to ATC? 18 A No. 19 Q All right. 20 Now how about the product that came from Tsrn3 21 City? 22 A The solvent resin from Texas City or solution resin, 23 again, has nevor be in labeled because Of"A did not require 24 labeling. 25 Q That product was never labeled? UCC 070532 i -j o A Th t A: f.orr*: ui. Q Is that product shipped to ATC? A Yoa. That's thu GO so:ao oid per oont we talkod about a more-ant ago. Q Wus any product of PVC In your plant that was shipped to ATC ever labeled? A Yes, the suspension andbulk resin. Q Whs-re was that manufactured? I*. A Texas City. I i Q And what sort of lab ding was put on? I A The laid ins 3requiredby OSHA. I > Q And vrhat was that labeling? What does it say? I'* MB. HOhLIhGCIiSAD: Tho label's been narked I as an exhibit, I.think. It, MR. LEVIIISOJJ: That's corroct. IV A If you don't nind, I'd Just as soon not quote it, IM but it Gs.ys something like "Cancer suspect agent. Warning! I *. Contains vinyl chloride." -`l Q And when did you start putting those labels on *' l j A* i* 4*w*#-I U . THE WIT:I2S5: And bulk. t Q -- and bulk-type resins? When did you start '' doing that? A When 03HA -tmdard bccr.no effective. UCC 070533 1 T. _ *J 1 P And that rpprcrivntcly when? Do you rtcrii? 2 A T.-i'e see. That lttr*i vrr.3 -- X*<S any April 1975. 3 Q It was eor.e tirca after 1974, was it? 4 A I think it was Ajjril 1, 1975. 5 Q Okay. .. 6 Now rto you agree to the necessity for the labeling? 7A I didn't feel that it v;a.3 nac33oary to label the bulk 8 rosin. 9 Q vrhat about thy ausponsion rasln? 10 THE WITNESS: Now you're asking ne did I 11 personally agree? IS MR. LEVINSON: Personally, yes. o 13 A I think it vat* probably not necessary. 14 Q For the some reason you gavo us before, namely 15 that it's an inert product and you don't think it has a 16 sufficient amount to eauao any danger to the worker? 17 A I think that thn manner in which suspension main is 18 handled and procsssnd, in general, prevents tforkor exposure 19 in the downstream plants to any significant dogroe. 20 Now I'll concede that ths vinyl chloride is there. 21 I will concede that* it'a driven off in tho first hot pro 22 cessing step, but then at this point you also have to have 23 ventilation to take away the heat and dust and any fume3 o 24 giver, off. 25 Q Encuso me. UCC 070534 dire ct .1.34 1 Sut you don't know v:hr.t the hoet conditions wore o 2 th'ro, do you? 3 THE WITNESS: kero where? 4 NR. LEVINSON: At ATC, at Perth Amboy, over 5 a period of ten years, the period from I960 to 6 1970. 7 MR. HOLLINGSHEAD: What the heating conditions 8 were? 9 NR. LEVINSON: Vhc.t the hoAt ing conditions 10 were, yes. 11 A Well, I wasn't talking about ATC. I was talking about 12 ths fabrication of polyvinyl chloride. o 13 You asked mo did I fool that the label on Ex 14 pansion resin bags was viholly Justified and I said that I 15 fait It was a minimal hazard because of the manner in which 16 suspension rosin is handlod. 17 The degree of worker exposuro is probably net 18 all that hazardous. 19 Q Now so that I understand you -- 20 THE WITNESS: And I didn't reallas that you 21 22 23 o 24 25 wanted to talk about ATC. MR. LEVINSON: I'm sorry. Wall, you're talking about the fabricating workers in the fabricating end r.nd I'm talking about the workers in the packaging end, namely o Ij i' ' X'. r airect 1 A?C. 2 the witness: aii right. 3 Q Now do you feel that particular label Is necessary 4 03 to -- 5 A rail, I think.it would be. rocoo3ory to make aura that 6 eoca guy did not ge out and poke his hoed In a vinyl 7 chloride car. 8 MR. LEVINSON: I didn't hoar that. 9 A I think the label Is necessary to make suro that a 10 particular nan doesn't co Into a closed space containing 11 vinyl chloride resin. 12 Q Why? A Because he's liksly to bo 13 exposed to a comparatively high concentration. 14 * Q Do you think that might be carcinogenic? 15 A I have no idea, but I think -16 Q Well, I thought you told U3 a short time ago -- 17 and you correct me if I'm wrong-- that you felt the only 18 dangar from VC is that it gives you a heady feeling. 19 A No, I didn't. 20 MR. HOLLINGSHEAD: No, no. I object to the 21 ch aract srisation, 22 THE WITNESS: You're putting word3 in my mouth. 23 MR. LEVINSON: I'm sorry. I misunderstood 24 you. I don't uar.t to do that. 25 UCC 070536 ' 1* 1 Q What Is the dtin./ir, then, of high concentrations of VC? A All right. Let's any you have a man who'3 going to work for you fcr nnr.y year;. If he* makee e habit of sticking fcl3 head in a closed vessel he's going to get a cumulative exposure to vinyl chloride, in th first place. Q Well, do you think that's tonic, to.ecu on your experience? A As I ec.id, long-term* high exposure to VC is toxic and does cause angiosarcoma,. Q Any other types of cancers? A The only other ones that appear to be a problem, that I've noted, are angiomas. Q And what is that? A It's a form of tumor. Q Where? . A In the --I'd have to dig up my records and ny literature on that ons. V.o'.-r I v:a3 about to go ahead and answer your original Question. q Go Ehead. A For the second part, there moot certainly is an acute and immediate hazard to breathing high concentration of vinyl chloride, because tho mam may fall into tho venae!. Q Well. I realize that. But roy question to you -- ucc r . . - i talking about cancor In this caco. 1 a2 My question to you Is thio: Do you feollhero^o a ralntionr.hlp fc.r/';v.oen inhalation of vinyl chloride monomer 3 and cancers, neoplasms? 4 A 5 A r^lf-tienshlj' between long-term exposure to high concentrations or vinyl chloride and angiosarcoma, And I 6 r.Bld this was based on my readings. Thera appears to bo 7 possibly Ei relationship between that and angiomas. 8 9 A 10 Q You say this as & chemist end not as & doctor? X said b&eoct on my readings. Q All right. 11 Well, ir. your import to ue -- and I refer to 12 Pegs 22 -- you aay, "The Menu featuring Chemists Association G 13 Industry-wide VC-FVC Worker Study on 10,173 workers and 14 669 deaths showed excessive ot-ar.dnriiaad mortality ratios 15 for b rsiln tumors, miscellaneous cancers and leukemia but 16 the numbers of cases wore small. 72/, 96/ The conclusion 17 of this eutdy was that there nay be soma support for the 18 hypothesis that vinyl chloride is a general carcinogen." 19 Do you accept that theory? 20 A do. 21 There I'm trying to give you a summary of the 22 report and Its conclusions. 23 q 3o that's just a nummary by ths Manufacturing 2JI O Chemists Association which you don't subscribe to, is that 25 UCC 070538  - at 4 -J 153 1 2 A I don't frol that tho other data wholly supports that 3 .r* 4*'*> fc U to' 4 Q All ri l'-> Lot r: go on and aol: you the- naxt 5 cv.rcti.on. 6 In th9 next paragraph, In the niddls of the next 7 paragraph starting.with the v.-ord "Proportional", you oay 8 do you ros that? 9 A Okay. 10 Q It cs.yc, "Fropcrtional mortality ratios chowsS 11 axcces deaths in diyostivs, respiratory and all ether 12 r.scplasas as well as daaths from circulatory dl3eas3." 13 New do ycu accept that? 14 rsn. HOLLI'IGSfEADs That paragraph, by the 15 , way, begins to talk about tha FVC fabricating 16 industry. 17 MR. LEVINSON: That's correct. 18 Q Now do you accopt that? 19 A Not entirely, no. 20 Q But you will -- A New lot it. 21 explain p.y position. 22 NR. LEVINSON: I'n sorry. You're talking 23 very slowly and quietly now md 301r.0tir.3n I think o 2^ 25 you're through- with your answer and I'm otarting to run into you, t'o raise your hand if you're UCC 070539 t/'it_______ solu^i A In the cao-i of ths first study we discussed, ws had .standardised Mortality ratios, \/hich are relatively good numbers. And when you got into proportional mortality ycu'ru taking about a study of -- you simply look up a bunch of duth certificates. You do not havo a complete . sample. You taka *11 th^dsoth cortificatss ana you lay then out in littla pilos and you than relate that to a whole population sample. In othsr words, you use an incomplete soaplo and you than rolato ths proportional mortality ratios to a largo, say, U.S. whita mala population, which you'vo got pretty good solid data on, and then you end up with the fact, as in this case, whora they say, ". . . excess doaths in digestive, respiratory and all other neoplasms. . .n Wall, you could havo an excessive* death from "digestive" via a proportional mortality ratio, and still ou a complete sample of the population not he out of line with tha U.S. white nolo population. I'm not sure if I'm making sense or not. Q I understand. But the fact is that you disagree with the state ment mads there*, i3 that right? A I think tho proportion of mortality ratio is more an UCC 070540 o Q 4 1 indication of n pine* whore ycu rr?d to do ro7Tc ntudy end 2 cannot b= a cenelrrirT: i:i itr.rlf. 3 Q Rut didn't you Just ttll us st the very outset 4 you enreod gen:rally with the idea that thio particular 5 product -- VC -- ic on ir.art product end the only rea3on 6 a man should not bo in a closed area in he night choke from 7 the duet fren the bags or ho might just suffocate free it? 8 lun't that what you said? 9 X?.. HCLLIJICSJEAD: No, RO. 10 Tht tnstir.or.y la clear on the record, X 11 think, end I believe if ycu ask him what ha said, 12 ha can toll you again. 13 Q What did you say? a Ths dancer of 14 VC to the worker -- I said that ha should not have 15 repetitive, long-term exposure to high concentrations. 16 I also 3.aid there was a hazard from acute 17 inhalation in that ha might actually fall into the vassal 18 end eventually die of suffocation. 19 Q And I think you did aay somathing about the faot 20 that you fc.lt thars might bo a connection between angio 21 sarcoma and audicna-, with high exposure? 22 A Based on my reading. And these ere my conclusions. 23 <3 But that's as far aa you'll go? 24 A Right. 25 Q You fool thin in not a general carcinogen? UCC 070541 ^ tv* * -- ^ 1C1 1A I don't f*ol bo, n. 2 X night point, out with regard to the preceding # 3 quoBtlon -- 4 MR, LEVINSON: Whet page era ws on now? 5 THE WITNESS: We're talking about the 6 PVC fabricating workers. 7A Now It says here, "Dr. G.M. Paddle in a latter to 8 R.N. Vheolsr observed that the apparent excesses In PMR's 9 *-l were a common feature of Industrial employee studies." 10 Now Dr. Paddle is a well-respected biostatlctician 11 In the United Kingdom. 12 Q What par. is that on? O 13 A 22. 14 Q And what does "PMR's" stand for? 15 A Proportionalmortalitystandards. 16 Q And what does ,,ft-l" stand for? 17 A It*a -- 18 MR. LEVINSON: Oh', I see It here at the 19 bottom of the page. 20 0 And what la he saying thore? What is Dr. Paddle 21 saying there? I don't understand It. Explain It to me. 22 A He's simply se.ylng that when you do an epidemiological study and end up with proportional mortality ratios that 23 24 have excess, then having rvcess ratios shows it's quite common. 25 UCC 070542 t n. 1 Q r-at that rtc-o not norate r.ecccrsrlly whot the 2 l'aiu featuring Chendeto Antocinticr. Report indicateo In tho 3 .ascend pernrre-ph on Pc.ns 22, that I asked you about, docs 4 it? 5 a no. 6 I hlchly rospect and X think th Manufacturing 7 Choraic-to Association Study is a much better quality and 8 rush mors reliable end useful study. 9 CJ But when that label was put on your product in 10 Texas City, on the cartons, and they ware shipped to ATC 11 in Perth Amboy> that label was sir ant for tha well-being 12 of those pcoplo in Perth Anboy, was it not? o 13 A And it was also to ba put on the labels of every carton 14 they filled which want to the customers. 15 Q So it was for everybody along the line that waa 16 exposed to that produot, correct? 17 THE WITNESS: Would you restate that? 18 Q So it woo meant for everybody along the lino that 19 was exposed to that product, correct? 20 A Yea. 21 MR. LEVINSON: Let's take a short recess. 22 (itoccos: 3:40 P.K.-3:42 P.M.) 23 MR. LEVINSON: Bsck on the record. o 24 25 I have no further questions. MR. HOLLINOSNZAD: No questions. UCC 070543 T 'i *' 1 (fhcrruror., tfc* hc2.rl.nr: ic adjourned.) 2 f 3 I, FSAKK AIITHOflT, the officer before whom the 4 foregoing d*naolblon was taken, do hereby certify that tho 5 witness who?' te^tinpny appears In the foregoing deposition 6 waa duly sworn by ms, and that said deposition is a true 7 record of the testimony given by said witness; that I am 8 neither attorney nor counsel for nor related to or 9 employed by any of the parties to the action In which tho 10 deposition is taken; and further that I am not a relative 11 or employee of any attorney or counsel employed by the 12 partias hereto, or financially interested in the action. 13 14 \15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ucc