Document YjBbYE2xM24M6x2xa6adL4Y9V

1 1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF ST. CLAIR COUNTY, ALABAMA PELL CITY DIVISION 2 THOMAS C. and CHARLOTTE ) 3 G. DYER, ) ) 4 Plaintiffs, ) CIVIL ACTION NUMBER 5 VS. ) ) CV-93-250 consolidated ) with CV-94-50-PH for 6 MONSANTO COMPANY, a ) discovery only Delaware corporation, ) 7 etal., ) DEPOSITION OF: ) 8 Defendants. ) BRUCE ELEY 9 SHELTER COVE MANAGEMENT, ) INC., et al., 10 ) ) Plaintiffs, ) CIVIL ACTION NUMBER 11 VS. 12 ) ) CV-94-50-PH ) MONSANTO CORPORATION, ) 13 etal., ) ) 14 Defendants. ) 16 STIPULATIONS 17 IT IS STIPULATED AND AGREED, by and between 18 the parties through their respective counsel, that the 19 deposition of: 20 BRUCE ELEY, 21 may be taken before Dana Gordon, Commissioner and 22 Notary Public, State at Large, at the Law Offices 23 of Burr & Forman, 3100 SouthTrust Tower, Birmingham, BAIN & ASSOCIATES 2 DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032750 1 Alabama 35203, on the 10th day of September 1998, 2 commencing at approximately 9:12 a.m. 3 4 5 IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED that the 6 signature to and reading of the deposition by the 7 witness is NOT waived, the deposition to have the same 8 force and effect as if full compliance had been had 9 with all laws and rules of Court relating to the 10 taking of depositions. 11 12 IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED that it 13 shall not be necessary for any objections to be made 14 by counsel to any questions, except as to form or 15 leading questions, and that counsel for the parties 16 may make objections and assign grounds at the time of 17 the trial, or at the time said deposition is offered 18 in evidence, or prior thereto. 19 2q ***** 21 22 23 BAIN & ASSOCIATES 3 1 APPEARANCES 2 DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032751 3 FOR THE PLAINTIFFS: 4 Peter A. Grammas 5 E. Clayton Lowe, Jr. 6 Attorneys at Law 7 Burr & Forman 8 3100 SouthTrust Tower 9 Birmingham, Alabama 35203 10 11 FOR THE DEFENDANTS: 12 William S. Cox, III 13 Attorney at Law 14 Lightfoot, Franklin & White 15 300 Financial Center 16 Birmingham, Alabama 35203 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 BAIN & ASSOCIATES 4 1 INDEX 2 MR. GRAMMAS: 5 - 292 3 DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032752 4 EXHIBIT LIST 5 Plaintiffs Exhibit 1 - 9 6 Plaintiffs Exhibit 2 - 50 7 Plaintiffs Exhibit 3 - 78 8 Plaintiffs Exhibit 4 - 118 9 Plaintiffs Exhibit 5 - 126 10 Plaintiffs Exhibit 6 - 195 11 Plaintiffs Exhibit 7 - 200 12 Plaintiffs Exhibit 8 - 241 13 Plaintiffs Exhibit 9 - 246 14 Plaintiffs Exhibit 10 - 257 15 Plaintiffs Exhibit 11 - 290 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 BAIN & ASSOCIATES 5 1 I, Dana Gordon, a Court Reporter of 2 Birmingham, Alabama, and a Notary Public for the State 3 of Alabama at large, acting as commissioner, certify 4 that on this date, pursuant to Rule 30 of the Alabama 5 Rules of Civil Procedure and the foregoing stipulation DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032753 6 of counsel, there came before me on the 10th day of 7 September 1998, at the Law Offices of Burr & Forman, 8 3100 SouthTrust Tower, Birmingham, Alabama 35203, 9 commencing at approximately 9:12 a.m., BRUCE ELEY, 10 witness in the above cause, for oral examination, 11 whereupon the following proceedings were had: 12 BRUCE ELEY, 13 being first duly sworn, was examined and testified as 14 follows: 15 THE REPORTER: Usual stipulations? 16 MR. COX: He, like the other ones, I think 17 will read and sign. 18 MR. GRAMMAS: All right. 19 MR. COX: That shouldn't delay anything. 20 EXAMINATION BY MR. GRAMMAS: 21 Q Could you state your full name for the 22 record, please? Is it Mr. Eley? 23 A Yes, Mr. Eley. BAIN & ASSOCIATES 6 1 Q Could you state your full name, please? 2 A Bruce W. Eley, E-l-e-y. 3 Q And where do you currently reside, Mr.Eley? 4 A 1729 Karman Valley Drive, K-a-r-m-a-n, St. 5 Louis, Missouri. 6Q You've recently given a deposition on behalf DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032754 7 of Monsanto and Solutia in a case that involves this 8 Anniston plant; is that correct? 9A That's correct. 10 Q Who are you currently employed by? 11 A Solutia, Inc. 12 Q And is that a spinoff corporation of 13 Monsanto? 14 A That's correct. 15 Q What's your current title, Mr. Eley? 16 A Manager, environmental affairs. 17 Q So, the buck stops at your desk with respect 18 to environmental issues relating to Solutia. Is that 19 a correct statement? 20 A No, sir. 21 Q You have bosses? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Who are your bosses? BAIN & ASSOCIATES 7 1 A My immediate boss is Dr. Bob Kaley, 2 K-a-l-e-y. His boss is Mr. Mike Foresman. His boss 3 is Mike Pierle, P-i-e-r-l-e. 4 Q Mike Pierle? 5 A Mike Pierle. 6Q Is that the chain of command for Solutia 7 with respect to environmental management? 8 A No. DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032755 9Q Why don't you go through that for me real 10 quick. Let's start from the top. 11 You understand this is a lawsuit about PCB 12 contamination, correct? 13 A Correct. 14 Q You understand that a court here in Alabama 15 has certified a class of plaintiffs in a lawsuit 16 against Monsanto and now also Solutia regarding PCB 17 contamination in Choccolocco Creek and in Lake Logan 18 Martin, correct? 19 A That's my understanding. 20 Q Have you ever visited those bodies of 21 water? 22 A Yes, I have. 23 Q And that would have been in your official BAIN & ASSOCIATES 8 1 capacity with either Monsanto or Solutia depending on 2 the time of your visit, correct? 3 A Correct. 4 Q Now, would you agree with me that PCB 5 contamination is an environmental issue? 6 A Yes. 7Q And therefore, it would come under the 8 auspice of your department, correct, PCB issues? Is 9 that a difficult question? DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032756 10 A Some issues -- well, the only thing is when 11 you say department, our group, which is a relatively 12 small group, is a part of remediation management. 13 Remediation management is managed by Mike Foresman. 14 I'm not that familiar with all the scope ofjobs 15 involved in remediation management, but this is a 16 group of engineers that are involved in remediating a 17 number of different sites that come under the 18 responsibility of Solutia, Inc. There's also another 19 department which deals with environmental issues. 20 Q What is that department? 21 A I'm trying to think exactly what it -- that 22 department is called. 23 Q Why don't we do this. BAIN & ASSOCIATES 9 1 A Compliance and policy, I believe. 2Q Why don't we do this. I'm going to mark a 3 blank piece of paper as Exhibit 1 and ask if you would 4 in sort of a -- 5 MR. COX: What do you want, a -- 6 MR. GRAMMAS: What's the word I'm looking 7 for? Hierarchy -- 8 MR. COX: Organizational chart? 9 Q Organizational chart. 10 A Organizational chart. 11 DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032757 12 (Plaintiffs Exhibit Number 1 was marked for 13 identification.) 14 Q Do me an organizational chart with Monsanto 15 or Solutia who is responsible for in your opinion 16 PCB-related issues including remediation cleanup, that 17 type stuff. 18 A Okay. I'll do the best job I can here. 19 Q Sure. And just so the record is clear, you 20 are a part of that organization, correct? 21 A That's correct. 22 Q As the manager of environmental affairs? 23 A Yes. BAIN & ASSOCIATES 10 1Q And there are only two people that are 2 directly your bosses, correct? 3 A Well, there's one person that I directly 4 report to. 5Q And that person only has one person that he 6 directly reports to? 7 A That's correct. 8 Q Are you done? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Let me see if I can -- Mr.Eley, you've 11 handed me Plaintiffs Exhibit 1 which is what appears 12 to be a rough schematic of an organizational chart for DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032758 13 Monsanto -- or is this Solutia? 14 A This is Solutia. 15 Q This is for Solutia dealing with PCB-related 16 issues, correct, environmental issues? 17 A It's an organizational chart of the overall 18 department which is called environment, safety and 19 health. That's our organization. 20 Q I'm going to step around here, not to stand 21 over your shoulder, but it will just be easier. 22 A Okay. We abbreviate environment, safety and 23 health by ESH. BAIN & ASSOCIATES 11 1Q Okay. And Mr. Mike Pierle -- P-i-e-r4-e? 2A Correct. 3Q Heads the whole organization? 4A That's true. 5Q The buck stops with him on environmental 6 issues? 7 A Well, actually, the buck probably goes 8 further up on the chain of command to the CEO, but in 9 most cases, you're correct. 10 Q Underneath him we have what appears to be 11 three boxes. One is written remediation. We have 12 four -- well, we have many boxes. Seven. Of the 13 boxes underneath the ESH head box, you have what's 14 called remediation management? DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032759 15 A Correct. 16 Q ESH compliance and policy? 17 A Compliance and policy, correct. 18 Q Product and safety toxicology? 19 A Correct. 20 Q I can't read that. 21 A Medical and epi, epidemiology. 22 Q Okay. Western region, eastern region and a 23 question mark? BAIN & ASSOCIATES 12 1 A A question mark region. I'm not sure 2 exactly. There are three regions and there are three 3 team leaders for each region. And I believe it's a 4 western, eastern and I'm not quite sure exactly what 5 that third region is called. 6 Q Do you know who -- 7 A Northern, southern. 8Q Anniston falls I would assume in the eastern 9 region? 10 A I believe so. 11 Q Do you know who the team leader is over that 12 region? 13 A I believe if s Max McCoombs, 14 M-c-C-o-o-m-b-s. 15 Q And I just wrote that under eastern region DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032760 16 and drew an arrow? 17 A Correct. 18 Q And he heads the eastern region which in 19 your understanding includes Anniston? 20 A I believe so. 21 Q What is this word above product safety and 22 toxicology? 23 A Felder, F-e-l-d-e-r. BAIN & ASSOCIATES 13 1 Q Is that a man's name? 2 A Correct. 3 Q What's his first name? 4 A Jeff. 5 Q Is he the head of product safety and 6 toxicology? 7 A He would be what we call our team lead for 8 product safety and toxicology. 9Q How about the medical and epidemiology 10 group, who heads that? 11 A It's a new physician, Dave Shepperly, 12 S-h-e-p-p-e-r-l-y. That's close. 13 Q And I wrote his name above there. Did I 14 write it correctly? 15 A Correct. 16 Q There's a name before ESH compliance and 17 policy, but I can't read it. What does that say? DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032761 18 A Fort, F-o-r-t. 19 Q And what's his first name? 20 A Garth, G-a-r-t-h. 21 Q And then we've got a box called remediation 22 management. I assume that's an entire division within 23 theESH? BAIN & ASSOCIATES 14 1A That will be one of the departments or one 2 of the larger groups reporting up to Mike Pierle. 3Q And Mike Foresman heads the Remediation 4 Management Department? 5A Correct. 6Q And under him there are a couple of empty 7 boxes. What are these boxes? 8A Those are some managers of remediation that 9 report up to Mike. 10 Q Do these managers of remediation have a 11 responsibility relating to PCBs? 12 A There's one. Alan Faust would be in one of 13 those boxes. 14 Q Does it matter which box we put him in? 15 A It doesn't matter at all. 16 Q Alan Faust? 17 A Faust, F-a-u-s-t. 18 Q Do you report to Mr. Faust? DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032762 19 A No. 20 Q Mr. Faust -- what role does he have with PCB 21 remediation issues for Solutia? 22 A He is the on-site project manager at the 23 Anniston plant who manages the overall remediation BAIN & ASSOCIATES 15 1 project. 2Q Okay. Now, Anniston -- I mean, Monsanto 3 made PCBs from the late 1920s to 1971, correct? 4 A I believe we -- at Anniston? 5 Q No. In general, Monsanto manufactured PCBs 6 from the 1920s to 1971? Actually - 7 A I think we manufactured PCBs from 1935 to 8 approximately 1976. 9Q And from 1971 to 1976, that was manufactured 10 in Illinois? 11 A PCBs being -- yes. 12 Q Monsanto stopped making PCBs in Anniston in 13 1971, correct? 14 A That's my understanding, correct. 15 Q Does anyone -- does Mr. Faust have any 16 responsibility for remediation cleanup at the plant in 17 Illinois? 18 A Not to my knowledge. 19 Q Or remediation? 20 A Not to my knowledge. DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032763 21 Q Is that plant situated similarly to the 22 Anniston plant in terms of creeks passing through it 23 or river systems or lakes or anything like that around BAIN & ASSOCIATES 16 1 it? 2 A I'm familiar with the Krummrich plant, but 3 not to that extent to know exactly what the drainage 4 patterns and topography of the plant site are. 5Q Is there any reason to expect that only the 6 Anniston plant has PCB contamination issues within 7 Monsanto's company? 8 A If you would repeat that, please. 9Q Yes, sir. Sitting here today, is there any 10 reason you believe that Monsanto only has PCB 11 contamination issues at its Anniston plant and not at 12 its Illinois plant? 13 MR. COX: Object to the form. Do you 14 understand the question? 15 THE WITNESS: I believe I do. 16 A Well, now that I think about it -- excuse 17 me. I'm sorry, but you'll have to repeat it again. 18 Q You will admit to me here today under oath 19 that Anniston, the Anniston plant has what I'm calling 20 PCB contamination issues that it's dealing with as we 21 sit here today? DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032764 22 A There are issues surrounding PCB and PCB 23 remediation at our Anniston, Alabama plant. BAIN & ASSOCIATES 17 1Q And is there something wrong with me 2 characterizing that as PCB contamination issues in 3 your mind? 4 A I'm just not sure whether -- how you define 5 PCB contamination. 6Q Well, PCBs aren't supposed to be on other 7 people's property near the Monsanto plant, are they? 8 A Any level of PCBs? 9Q There should not have been one single PCB at 10 any level that left Monsanto's property in Anniston 11 and got on somebody else's property. You would 12 certainly agree with that statement, would you not? 13 A Not necessarily, no. 14 Q Is it your position that Monsanto had a 15 right to discharge PCBs on its neighbor's property at 16 any time during manufacturing? 17 MR. COX: Object to the form. You can 18 answer that, if you can. 19 A And that pertains to any time in the past? 20 Q Correct. 21 A Okay. 22 MR. COX: Well, I think your question was 23 limited to the manufacturing time period. DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032765 BAIN & ASSOCIATES 18 1Q Well, let me just say this: Tell me what 2 you're aware of, Mr. Eley, that allowed Monsanto to 3 discharge PCBs from its manufacturing facility whether 4 it was manufacturing them at the time or not on to 5 neighboring property. 6 MR. COX: Same objection. 7 A I'm generally aware that there have been 8 environmental and occupational requirements by various 9 state and local governments. I'm not that versed in 10 various requirements surrounding PCBs either now or in 11 the past. I'm a bit more knowledgeable of 12 requirements in the occupational area. 13 In that area, for example, I do know that 14 there are occupational exposure limits. 15 Q You're talking about employees? 16 A I'm talking about releases of PCBs into the 17 air. 18 Q For employees who are working around them, 19 right? 20 A For employees. 21 Q Now, this lawsuit doesn't really have 22 anything to do with employees who worked at the 23 Monsanto plant, does it? BAIN & ASSOCIATES DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032766 19 1 A I think your question, though, dealt 2 generally with releases of PCB. 3 Q No, sir. My question was more specific. My 4 question to you said tell me what you believe gave 5 Monsanto the right to discharge PCBs it manufactured 6 on to its neighbor's property. And if you're not 7 aware of anything, I would like to know that. 8 MR. COX: Object to the form. 9A The only thing I'm aware of is that there 10 have been for many years federal and state regulations 11 that Monsanto would have to abide by from the 12 standpoint of any releases, discharges or otherwise of 13 chemicals that we manufacture. 14 Q In any event, back to my original question, 15 you will agree with me that if Monsanto allowed PCBs 16 to discharge on its neighboring property, that it 17 contaminated that property with PCBs at some level? 18 MR. COX: Object to the form. 19 MR. GRAMMAS: What's your objection? 20 MR. COX: I think it's -- you're asking him 21 questions about levels without being specific as to 22 where the property is located and what level and what 23 level they're being measured and when they were BAIN & ASSOCIATES 20 DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032767 1 discharged. It's just incomplete. That's what my 2 objection is. 3 MR. GRAMMAS: Okay. 4Q You can answer the question. 5 A If you would repeat that, please. 6Q Yes, sir. You will agree with me that if 7 PCBs escaped Monsanto's property and got on to 8 property that neighbors Monsanto's property that at 9 some level Monsanto contaminated the neighbor's 10 property -- 11 MR. COX: Same objection. 12 Q -- with PCBs? 13 A At some level? 14 Q Right. 15 A But we're not specifying any particular 16 level. 17 Q Correct. 18 A You're just saying at some level. 19 Q That is correct. 20 A And that level could be one molecule or -- 21 then no, I don't agree with you. 22 Q So, it's your position -- in any event, 23 let's get back to this chart. The plant in Illinois BAIN & ASSOCIATES 21 1 is in a city called Monsanto, Illinois, isn't it? 2 A It used to be. It's calledSauget, DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032768 3 Illinois. 4 Q Sauget? 5 A Sauget. 6Q Could you spell that, please? 7 A S-a-u-g-e-t. 8Q Did Monsanto get its name from that city or 9 did the city get its name from Monsanto? 10 A When the city was named Monsanto? 11 Q Correct. 12 A If s my understanding that the city got its 13 name from Monsanto. 14 Q And that's because the plant was so big in 15 that area and employed so many people the city felt 16 indebted to name its entire city after Monsanto, 17 correct? 18 A I don't know that, no. 19 Q Is that what you think? 20 A No, I really have no opinion on that. 21 Q You just think the city decided to name it 22 Monsanto and its purely coincidence that there was a 23 plant there? BAIN & ASSOCIATES 22 1A There could have been maybe other reasons. 2 There could have been a charitable gift, any number of 3 reasons why the city's fathers may have named it DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032769 4 Monsanto. 5Q But it is related to the fact that there was 6 a Monsanto plant there in some form? 7 A I would think so. 8Q Mr. Faust heads PCB remediation here in 9 Anniston, correct? 10 A Yes. He heads up the remediation project 11 there at Anniston that is -- where PCBs are at issue. 12 Q Right. And there is not a person at that 13 level at the plant in Illinois, correct? 14 A I don't know. 15 Q Well, you would know that in your j ob as the 16 -- let me get the title correct -- manager of 17 environmental affairs, wouldn't you? 18 A No. 19 Q So, you think sitting here today there may 20 be someone at Mr. Faust's level in Illinois dealing 21 with PCB contamination or PCB issues in general? 22 A No, I don't know. 23 Q You don't know one way or the other? BAIN & ASSOCIATES 23 1 A I don't know. 2Q And you're not testifying here under oath 3 that there is such a man or woman? 4 A That's correct. 5Q How is it that you know about Mr. Faust in DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032770 6 Anniston? 7 A Because I have been working with Mr. Faust 8 and other people on that project personally since 9 about 1996. 10 Q Okay. And when you say "that project," you 11 mean the PCB remediation project, right? 12 A Correct. 13 Q And isn't it logical to assume, Mr. Eley, 14 that if Monsanto had such a project at the Illinois 15 plant, you would be working on that project, also? 16 A No. 17 Q Who would be working on that, if not you, at 18 your level? 19 A It's likely that if they had a project 20 underway, that they would have a remediation manager. 21 Q Like Mr. Faust? 22 A Like Mr. Faust heading up that project. 23 Q I understand that. But you're working with BAIN & ASSOCIATES 24 1 Mr. Faust here in Anniston, aren't you? 2 A I and a number of other people. 3 Q Well, I understand that. 4 A Yes. 5 Q But you are, in fact, working with Mr. Faust 6 here in Anniston on PCB remediation issues, correct? DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032771 7A Certain aspects of the PC -- or the 8 remediation project, yes, I'm working with Mr. Faust. 9Q And isn't it logical to assume that if 10 Monsanto had such a remediation project at the 11 Illinois plant, you would be working with that manager 12 who heads that remediation, if there was one, with the 13 same aspects that you're dealing with here in 14 Anniston? 15 A Not necessarily. 16 Q Okay. That's where we left off. Who would 17 that person be if it's not you? 18 A It possibly could be somebody else in the 19 remediation management group. 20 Q Monsanto, now Solutia, takes the 21 remediation -- the PCB remediation issues within the 22 entire company very seriously. Is that a fact? 23 A That's my understanding. BAIN & ASSOCIATES 25 1Q And that's because PCBs are carcinogenic, 2 correct, among other things? 3 A I don't think I would agree with that. 4Q You don't think PCBs are carcinogenic to 5 humans? 6 A Oh, no. 7 Q You do not think that? 8 A I don't think that. DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032772 9Q Have you ever testified before, Mr. Eley, 10 that you do believe that PCBs are carcinogenic to 11 humans? 12 A No. 13 Q Do you agree that PCBs cause some type of 14 liver problems in humans? 15 A If s been reported in the literature that 16 PCBs can cause liver dysfunction. 17 Q Is that one of the reasons why Monsanto 18 takes PCB remediation issues very seriously? 19 A That may be one of a number of factors. 20 Q Tell me all the factors why Monsanto, now 21 Solutia, takes PCB remediation seriously. 22 A Well, it's my understanding the primary 23 reason is because PCBs are controlled substances. And BAIN & ASSOCIATES 26 1 when I say controlled substances, there are 2 environmental regulations governing PCBs. 3 Q Any other -- 4 A Or controlling PCBs. 5 Q Any other reasons? 6 A I think that's the primary reason. 7 Q Any other reasons, primary or not? 8 A I think the other factor is there are 9 environmental issues surrounding PCBs given their DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032773 10 persistence and stability in the environment. 11 Q What does that mean? 12 A Persistence and stability? 13 Q Yeah. What does that--why would there be 14 environmental issues relating to PCBs because they're 15 persistent and stable in the environment? 16 A Well, it's my understanding -- and please 17 keep in mind, I'm certainly not an expert in PCBs and 18 certainly not an expert in the ecology of the 19 environmental effects of PCBs. But it's my 20 understanding that PCBs have been known for some time 21 to have the capacity to persist in the environment and 22 build up or bioaccumulate in various aquatic and avian 23 species. BAIN & ASSOCIATES 27 1Q And they're also mobile, are they not, 2 adhering to the sediment and traveling around water 3 systems? 4 A Mobile -- I wouldn't characterize PCBs as 5 being particularly mobile. 6Q You said you're not an expert on PCBs? 7A That's correct. 8Q There are people at Monsanto that know a 9 heck of a lot more about PCBs, the toxicity of PCBs to 10 humans, the environmental problems relating to PCBs 11 than you? DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032774 12 A Correct. 13 Q But yet, you were the man that Monsanto sent 14 down to talk to property owners around the plant about 15 buying their property because it was PCB contaminated, 16 correct? 17 A No. 18 Q That's incorrect? 19 A That's incorrect. 20 Q Why is that not a correct statement? 21 A I came down to theAnniston plant on the 22 project in -- in or around March of 1996 to coordinate 23 the off site soil sampling for PCBs. BAIN & ASSOCIATES 28 1Q But you're the man that dealt with all the 2 people regarding sampling their property and buying 3 their property back. You're the man at Monsanto, now 4 Solutia, that those individuals dealt with, correct? 5 A From the standpoint of sampling, but not 6 from the standpoint of buying property. 7Q Who did they deal with about buying the 8 property back? 9 A As part of the project, there was a purchase 10 property program that was coordinated by Prudential 11 Relocation Specialists. 12 Q Is that somebody -- that's not even related DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032775 13 to Monsanto, is it? 14 A When you say related to -- 15 Q That's a contractor? 16 A --Monsanto -- 17 Q That's a contractor? 18 A Correct. 19 Q And those people to your knowledge don't 20 know anything about PCBs, do they, to your knowledge? 21 A Well, I can't say that. I don't know what 22 they know. 23 Q Monsanto, and now Solutia, sent you down to BAIN & ASSOCIATES 29 1 discuss these sampling issues or to handle the 2 sampling issues on the property next to Monsanto's 3 plant, right? 4A Some of the sampling that was done adjacent 5 to the Monsanto plant or the Solutia plant. 6Q And you were the point man that had 7 conversations with these people about their sampling, 8 right? 9 A I had conversations with a number of people, 10 certainly not all people regarding sampling on their 11 property. 12 Q You were the point man? 13 A Later on in time, I was a point man. 14 Q You wrote letters asking for permission to DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032776 15 come on the property, right? You authored letters to 16 these people? 17 A In some cases I did. 18 Q And you also wrote letters to them telling 19 them the results of the sampling that -- with the PCBs 20 on their property, right? 21 A I authored some of those letters. 22 Q And you're sitting here today saying you're 23 not an expert on PCBs? BAIN & ASSOCIATES 30 1 A That's correct. 2Q And you don't know what those levels mean, 3 if anything, correct? 4 A That's correct. 5Q Don't you think it would have made more 6 sense if Solutia would have sent someone down to 7 communicate with these people that knew something 8 about what they were sampling? 9 MR. COX: Object to the form. 10 A Not necessarily, no. 11 Q And the reason you say no, Mr. Eley, is 12 because Solutia wanted to have plausible denial on the 13 questions that these people asked you about the health 14 effects of PCBs, isn't that correct? 15 MR. COX: Object to the form. DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032777 16 A No. 17 Q It's not a true statement to say that 18 someone selected you as opposed to more knowledgeable 19 people about PCB issues to deal with these people so 20 that you could play ignorant and deny any information, 21 knowledge or expertise about PCB-related issues? Is 22 that what you're saying? 23 MR. COX: Object to the form. BAIN & ASSOCIATES 31 1 A No, that's not my understanding at all. 2 Q But even though that's not your 3 understanding, that was certainly one of the effects 4 of sending you down there and talking with these 5 people, wasn't it, in Anniston? 6 A No, I wouldn't characterize it that way. 7Q They ask you a question about whether or not 8 these levels will harm them and you say, I don't know, 9 I'm not an expert, correct? 10 A I'm not sure--I'm not sure that I ever 11 said it that way. 12 Q If you told them anything about health 13 effects, you would be speaking outside of your 14 expertise and understanding, right? 15 A That's correct. 16 Q And if you assured them when they asked you 17 oh, don't worry, nothing is wrong here, everything is DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032778 18 fine, you're not going to be hurt or there's no harm 19 here, you wouldn't have the basis or the facts to 20 discuss those types of things with these people, isn't 21 that true? 22 MR. COX: You're asking him to assume that 23 he said that to somebody? I'm sorry. I just want BAIN & ASSOCIATES 32 1 to -- 2Q I'm saying if you would have said things 3 like that to these people when they asked you 4 questions about the health effects of PCB 5 contamination on their bodies, if you gave them 6 answers other than referring them out to somebody 7 else, you wouldn't have the expertise or the knowledge 8 to support those answers, right? 9A Specific effects on their bodies? I believe 10 that's correct. 11 Q Right. 12 A That's right. 13 Q And there are certainly people at Monsanto 14 that can answer those questions, right, or Solutia? 15 When I say Monsanto, I'm using these interchangeably 16 with Solutia. 17 A I'm not sure there's people inSolutia that 18 could answer specific health-related questions that DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032779 19 people might have. 20 Q About PCBs? 21 A Correct. 22 Q Okay. Monsanto is the only company in the 23 United States that ever manufactured PCBs, correct? BAIN & ASSOCIATES 33 1 A To my knowledge, that's correct. 2Q And there is substantial literature out that 3 discuss very serious potential health effects of PCBs 4 for human beings, correct? I'm not saying you agree 5 with it. I'm just saying there are many medical 6 doctors who have written on this subject and have 7 concluded that PCB exposures cause health -- adverse 8 health effects in human beings. 9 A Not that I'm aware of. 10 Q Is it your testimony -- have you ever 11 testified in the past, Mr. Eley, that PCBs are a 12 potential human carcinogen? I'm going to ask you one 13 more time. Because I'm going to take a break, I'm 14 going to go through this deposition and I'm going to 15 find it. Have you ever done that? 16 A I think that in deposition I may have 17 indicated that PCBs were classified by some group such 18 as the EPA and IARC as either a possible or probable 19 carcinogen. 20 Q Right. And that's what I asked you earlier DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032780 21 and you said no. 22 MR. COX: No, that's not what you asked him 23 earlier. BAIN & ASSOCIATES 34 1Q You will agree with me sitting here today 2 that there are knowledgeable people in this area of 3 science and, in fact, people more knowledgeable than 4 you that have concluded that PCBs are a potential 5 human carcinogen? 6 A It's my understanding there are scientists 7 that have concluded that. 8Q And you were asked in a prior deposition 9 about whether you had an opinion on the human hazards 10 of PCBs. Do you recall that? 11 A I believe so. 12 Q And in your testimony -- 13 MR. COX: Just for the record, is that in 14 the Massey case? 15 MR. GRAMMAS: If s in the Massey case. 16 Q In your testimony on July 17th, 1998, do you 17 recall testifying that it all depends on the 18 concentration of PCBs? 19 A I don't recall specifically saying that, 20 but -- 21 Q Do you not agree sitting here today, sir, DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032781 22 that hazardous -- strike that. 23 Do you not agree sitting here today that at BAIN & ASSOCIATES 35 1 certain concentrations PCBs are hazardous to humans? 2 A It's my understanding that at certain 3 concentrations PCBs can cause or have been reported to 4 cause health effects in humans. 5Q And you agree with that, don't you? 6 A I agree with that. 7Q So really when we're talking about these PCB 8 contamination issues, Monsanto will agree that at 9 certain levels PCBs are going to have adverse health 10 effects on human beings who are exposed to it, right? 11 A Like most compounds I'm aware of that would 12 be true. 13 Q I'm going to ask you again because I don't 14 want to talk about other compounds. I want to talk 15 about PCBs. 16 Monsanto knows that at certain levels PCBs 17 are hazardous to human health, correct? 18 A There are people, scientists in Solutia that 19 know that at high concentrations of PCBs you could 20 have health effects in humans. 21 Q No. Will have health effects--adverse 22 health effects in humans. There's no guesswork here, 23 Mr. Eley. If human beings are exposed to high DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032782 BAIN & ASSOCIATES 36 1 concentrations of PCBs, bad things are going to happen 2 to them, correct? 3 A I don't know that for a fact. 4Q You don't know that for a fact? 5 A No, I do not. 6Q Do you know who Dr. Kelly is? 7 A Yes. 8Q He's a medical doctor, isn't he? 9 A Correct. 10 Q He's dead now, correct? 11 A That's correct. 12 Q He was employed by Monsanto back in the'50s 13 and '60s and '70s to explore these issues more fully, 14 wasn't he? 15 A He was employed by Monsanto as the medical 16 director of Monsanto. 17 Q He was the head medical doctor for the 18 company, correct? 19 A That's correct. 20 Q Did he treat any patients? 21 A I don't know whether he treated patients or 22 not. 23 Q Did Monsanto employees come to Dr. Kelly and BAIN & ASSOCIATES DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032783 37 1 say hey, I don't feel good today, I think I have a 2 cold, I may have the flu, can you prescribe some 3 medicine for me, tell me what's wrong with me? Was he 4 that kind of doctor for Monsanto? 5 A He may or may not have been. I don't know. 6Q But your understanding of his -- the primary 7 thrust of his employment was to look at toxicology 8 issues relating to chemicals and in particular PCBs 9 that Monsanto was manufacturing, right? 10 A Well, he was hired by Monsanto as the 11 medical director and his overall responsibility would 12 be in occupational medicine and as a part of that, 13 clearly he would have knowledge of and keep abreast of 14 toxicology of chemicals. 15 Q Do you have any reason or do you have any 16 expertise to disagree with Dr. Kelly's conclusions 17 that Monsanto Chemical Company's position can be 18 summarized in this fashion: "We know Aroclors are 19 toxic, but the actual limit has not be precisely 20 defined?" Do you have any basis or expertise to 21 disagree with his conclusion? 22 A No. 23 MR. COX: Can you show him the entire BAIN & ASSOCIATES 38 DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032784 1 document? 2 MR. GRAMMAS: I will in a moment. We'll 3 make it an exhibit. 4Q So, it is true then at least as early as 5 September 20th, 1995 -- and that's the date of the 6 document, right? 7 MR. COX: 1955. 8 Q 1955? 9 A That is correct. 10 Q It is true at least as early as that date 11 Mr. -- or excuse me. Dr. Kelly on behalf of Monsanto 12 stated that Monsanto knew that PCBs were toxic to 13 humans and it was just a matter of degree? 14 A Well, I believe it states here that we know 15 Aroclors are toxic. 16 Q Aroclor is a market name for PCBs, isn't it? 17 A Yes, it is. 18 Q So, when he says Aroclor, you can take 19 Aroclor right out of there and substitute PCB, right? 20 A Correct. 21 Q Okay. And he says he knew they were toxic, 22 right? 23 A That's what he states here. BAIN & ASSOCIATES 39 1Q And now he's saying in that letter it's just 2 a matter of degree? DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032785 3 MR. COX: Huh-uh. 4Q That's his next statement, isn't it? We 5 don't know what levels right now, but we know they're 6 toxic to human beings? 7 A I don't see that -- 8Q Okay. Well, let me read it for you. 9A -- anywhere in there. 10 Q "We know Aroclors are toxic, but the actual 11 limit has not been precisely defined." 12 A Okay. 13 Q I mean, we're talking about degrees when we 14 talk about limits, aren't we? 15 A The only thing I can state is what Dr. Kelly 16 put in there. I don't know what he meant by limit and 17 whether he referred that to mean degrees. 18 Q By 1955, Monsanto knew at some level PCBs 19 were toxic to human beings, correct? 20 A It's my reading of Dr. Kelly's memo that 21 that is correct. 22 Q That's not the only information you've ever 23 come across in your 30 some odd years of employment BAIN & ASSOCIATES 40 1 with this company that would indicate to you that 2 Monsanto knows that PCBs are toxic to human beings, is 3 it? I mean, you're the environmental manager. DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032786 4 A I don't recall right now exactly what all 5 memos I've read in the past that deal with PCBs. 6Q Okay. Mr. Eley, some time ago I asked you 7 the -- what the factors were to your knowledge as to 8 why Monsanto takes PCB remediation seriously. Do you 9 recall that question? 10 A Yes. 11 Q One of the factors that you listed was that 12 the PCBs are known to cause liver damage and you said 13 there are others and I asked you to list them. Do you 14 remember that? 15 A Correct. 16 Q And one of the things you said is -- and you 17 said the primary reason why you take remediation of 18 PCB seriously is that it is listed as a controlled 19 substance, correct? 20 A Correct. 21 Q If PCBs were not listed as a controlled 22 substance, would Monsanto not seek to remediate PCB 23 contamination issues that it's responsible for? BAIN & ASSOCIATES 41 1 MR. COX: You're asking him to assume 2 that -- 3 MR. GRAMMAS: Absolutely. 4 MR. COX: -- all the regulations -- 5Q I'm asking you to assume that every single DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032787 6 regulation you're aware of that says clean up -- first 7 of all -- strike that. 8 The regulations are there because it has 9 known adverse human health effects, right? It being 10 PCBs. 11 A I'm not that familiar with the origination 12 of the regulations on PCBs. 13 Q The federal government is not going to stop 14 a company from manufacturing a product that doesn't 15 have any health effects like this, are they? I mean, 16 are we going to sit here today and dispute the fact 17 that the federal government outlawed the manufacture 18 of PCBs because it's known to have adverse human 19 health effects? Are you going to dispute that? 20 MR. COX: If you know why the EPA banned the 21 manufacture of PCBs, you can tell him. If you don't 22 know, you don't know. 23 A Well, it's my understanding that the EPA BAIN & ASSOCIATES 42 1 banned PCBs because of the environmental effects or 2 environmental persistence in the environment. 3Q Okay. Well, if they banned the production 4 for whatever reason, is it your position that Monsanto 5 wouldn't do anything to remediate the past harms that 6 PCB contamination -- that they caused with PCB DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032788 7 contamination? 8 MR. COX: Object to the form. 9 A I'm sorry. I don't understand your 10 question. 11 Q What I'm trying to get at is you gave as a 12 reason as to why Monsanto, now Solutia, is remediating 13 the PCBs in the Anniston area is because PCBs are a 14 controlled substance. Did I hear you correctly? 15 A That was one of the factors that I suggested 16 that perhaps was a reason for remediation. 17 Q All right. My question to you is if the EPA 18 had not listed PCBs as a controlled substance, would 19 Monsanto have any -- would it undertake any efforts to 20 remediate the PCBs in this area? 21 A I don't know. 22 Q Is it safe to say then that the only reason 23 y'all are doing it is because the government is making BAIN & ASSOCIATES 43 1 you do it? 2 A I don't knowthat either. 3Q How long have you been employed with 4 Monsanto, now Solutia? 5 A Since 1969. 6 Q Let me ask you a question. How in the world 7 can the manager of environmental affairs with Solutia 8 not be familiar with federal regulations regarding DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032789 9 PCBs? How is that possible? 10 A Because I ordinarily don't deal with PCB 11 issues. 12 Q You only deal with PCB issues when people 13 around the plant start asking questions and Monsanto 14 sends you down to answer them. Is that a fair 15 statement? 16 A No, not at all. 17 Q The only time you've ever dealt with PCB 18 issues, sir, outside of the area of employee 19 contamination or whatever exposure -- 20 MR. COX: Occupational exposure. 21 Q Occupational exposure is on this issue here 22 at the Anniston plant, isn't that right? 23 A I believe that's true. BAIN & ASSOCIATES 44 1 Q You didn't think it was odd -- whoselected 2 to send you down there to talk to these people and to 3 head up this sampling? 4 A I think it may have been my boss -- 5 Q Mr. Kaley? 6 A -- Bob Kaley. 7Q Didn't you tell him hey, wait a minute, Bob, 8 I don't know anything about PCBs, send somebody who 9 knows so they can address these people's concerns more DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032790 10 directly? Did that ever occur to you to say that? 11 A No, it didn't. 12 Q Is that because you knew why you were asked 13 to go down there? 14 A No. 15 Q Why didn't you say that? 16 A Because it didn't occur to me. 17 Q In hindsight, do you think that would have 18 been a good thing to do? 19 A No. 20 Q You think it's good that Monsanto sent 21 someone who doesn't know anything about PCB toxicity 22 down to talk to these people about PCBs and PCB 23 sampling? If that's your testimony, fine. I want to BAIN & ASSOCIATES 45 1 hear either a yes or no on that. 2 A I don't think that was the purpose of why I 3 went down to Anniston. 4Q Back to your Plaintiffs Exhibit 1, this 5 chart you prepared. Under remediation management, we 6 have Mike Foresman who heads it. Underneath him we 7 have R. Kaley. Is that Mr. Bob Kaley who you just 8 talked about? 9 A Correct. 10 Q And his position is what? 11 A I believe his position is director, DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032791 12 environmental affairs. 13 Q And underneath Mr. Kaley is who? 14 A That is Bruce Eley, myself, and my title, 15 manager, environmental affairs. 16 Q Who is the man that I need to swear under 17 oath and ask questions in a deposition either on 18 behalf of Monsanto or now Solutia that can talk to me 19 about exactly what it is Monsanto knows about PCB 20 contamination, PCB remediation, PCB health effects on 21 humans, PCB adverse effects in the environment and 22 those types of PCB issues? Who is that person? 23 A I would think that that person would be BAIN & ASSOCIATES 46 1 either and/or Bob Kaley, Alan Faust or Mike Foresman. 2 I'm not familiar with Dr. Dave Shepperly's knowledge 3 of PCB s. 4 Q Now, Dr. Shepperly is the head of the 5 Department of Medical and Epidemiology for Solutia, 6 right? 7A That's correct, he is the -- as I would 8 term, the medical director. 9Q And his responsibilities in part are to 10 determine to what extent the chemicals that Solutia 11 manufactures or that Monsanto manufactured in the past 12 affect the environment and human beings, right? DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032792 13 A No. 14 Q Who at Monsanto was charged with the 15 responsibility to see exactly what it is that PCBs can 16 do to human beings either now or in the past? 17 A The person charged in Monsanto? 18 Q Right. Or Solutia. 19 A I think that the person would have been Dr. 20 Emmet Kelly. 21 Q And after he died, Monsanto just closed 22 their eyes to the issues that relate to health effects 23 of PCB contamination on human beings? BAIN & ASSOCIATES 47 1 A I don't think Monsanto closed their eyes to 2 anything. 3 Q When did Mr. Kelly die? 4 MR. COX: Dr. Kelly. 5 Q Dr. Kelly. 6 A Dr. Kelly died within the last couple of 7 years, I believe. I'm not sure exactly what the date 8 was. 9Q When did his employment with Monsanto end? 10 A I think it was in or around 1974. 11 Q Who replaced him on the PCB issue for 12 Monsanto from a medical doctor's perspective? 13 A Well, the person that replaced him as 14 medical director was Dr. George Roush. DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032793 15 Q Where is he today? 16 A Dr. Roush, as I understand, still lives in 17 and around St. Louis. 18 Q When did he stop working for Monsanto? 19 A I believe it was in the early 1980s. 20 Q Do you know if he was charged with the 21 responsibility of human health effects relating to PCB 22 exposure? 23 A He was charged with directing occupational BAIN & ASSOCIATES 48 1 medicine in Monsanto. 2Q Okay. I'm going to ask you my question 3 again. Do you know if he was in charge of potential 4 human health effects relating to PCB exposure? 5 A No. 6 MR. COX: No, you don't -- 7 Q No, he was not or no, you don't know? 8 A No, I don't know whether he was in charge of 9- 10 MR. COX: Can we take a break? 11 MR. GRAMMAS: Yeah. 12 (A break was taken.) 13 Q (By Mr. Grammas) Sitting here today as the 14 manager over environmental affairs, Mr. Eley, you 15 cannot identify a single medical doctor who is charged DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032794 16 with the responsibility of monitoring or overseeing or 17 studying the potential adverse human health effects of 18 PCB exposure, can you? 19 MR. COX: Employed by Monsanto or Solutia? 20 MR. GRAMMAS: Or Solutia. 21 A At this point in time? 22 Q Right. 23 A Correct. BAIN & ASSOCIATES 49 1Q And the only other person you can identify 2 is Dr. Kelly, right? 3 A Dr. Kelly and then we talked about Dr. 4 Roush who took over as medical director from Dr. 5 Kelly. 6Q Do you know if he had any human exposure to 7 PCB issues? 8 A Well, I am aware of Dr. Kelly retiring in 9 and around 1974. It's my understanding that at that 10 time we were still manufacturing PCBs at one of our 11 facilities. We had a medical director then that 12 assumed responsibility for occupational medicine. 13 So, in that capacity, he would have 14 responsibility for occupational medicine related to 15 all compounds that Monsanto handled at that time which 16 would have included PCBs. 17 Q And again, when you say occupational DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032795 18 medicine, that's really limited to the occupational 19 people, right, the workers, Monsanto's employees who 20 are working around the PCBs? 21 A Not necessarily. I think that in 22 occupational medicine the primary focus is workers or 23 the primary focus is humans as compared with perhaps BAIN & ASSOCIATES 50 1 toxicologists or epidemiologists that are charged with 2 different fields of study. 3Q Monsanto didn't have anybody in charge of 4 neighbors' health, potential health effects, did they, 5 neighbors to the plants where they were making PCBs? 6 A I don't think we specifically had a 7 physician that was on call for neighbors to call in 8 to. 9Q My question really wasn't that limited. My 10 question was there was not a single person employed by 11 Monsanto and even now Solutia who is responsible for 12 monitoring the potential health effects of humans who 13 have been exposed to PCB. Isn't that a true 14 statement? 15 A I believe that would have been a part of Dr. 16 Kelly's and Dr. Roush's responsibility. 17 Q And since Dr. Roush's retirement, there is 18 no such person with that description, right, at DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032796 19 Monsanto or Solutia? 20 A I believe that would be correct. 21 22 (Plaintiffs Exhibit Number 2 was marked for 23 identification.) BAIN & ASSOCIATES 51 1Q I'm going to present to you what we have 2 marked as Plaintiffs Exhibit 2. Is this not the 3 September 20th, 1955 letter of Dr. Kelly regarding 4 toxicity of PCBs? 5 MR. COX: He can testify as to what the 6 document says. 7 MR. GRAMMAS: Right. 8 MR. COX: But he obviously -- I mean, you 9 don't know this yet, but he was not employed at the 10 time. But to the extent he can identify it from 11 looking at Dr. Kelly's signature or testifying to the 12 date, he can do that, but as far as authenticating the 13 document, I don't think that's proper. 14 Q I'm just asking you if that's the letter he 15 wrote. I want the record to be clear. 16 A This is a letter that appears to be written 17 by Dr. Kelly. 18 Q Do you recognize his signature? 19 MR. COX: If s not signed. 20 A Yes, it is not signed. DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032797 21 Q But that's the letter that I showed you 22 earlier where you agreed that Dr. Kelly on behalf of 23 Monsanto took the position that the Aroclors are BAIN & ASSOCIATES 52 1 toxic, right? 2 A Have you got the other letter that -- or 3 memo? 4 MR. COX: It's the same letter. 5 A It appears to be the same memo, correct. 6Q PCBs adhere very strongly to soil, correct? 7 A That is my understanding. 8Q Soil is washed along creek bottoms and moved 9 around depending on water flows, correct? 10 A Soil or sediment? 11 Q Sediment, soil. 12 A That's my understanding. 13 Q So, if sediment is moving, the PCBs attached 14 to the sediment are also moving, correct? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Moving is another word for mobile, correct? 17 MR. COX: Object to the form. 18 A If something is moving, I would consider 19 that to be mobile. 20 Q So, it is a fair statement then to say that 21 PCBs are mobile when they are in the environment? DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032798 22 A In the context that you've just described, 23 that would be true, but generally if you were to read BAIN & ASSOCIATES 53 1 in the literature under the mobility of PCBs, I think 2 you would find that PCBs are not mobile, not 3 particularly mobile in the environment. 4Q What literature are you talking about? 5 A I think if you were to look at various 6 textbooks on the environmental characteristics of 7 PCBs. I have no specific textbooks in mind. 8Q Do you have -- let's talk about for a moment 9 your educational background. 10 A Okay. 11 Q I got diverted initially from my plan when 12 I got you to draw that organizational chart. 13 You have a master's degree in environmental 14 engineering, correct? 15 A The master's degree is in civil engineering 16 and the sanitary or environmental engineering function 17 or discipline was a part of the civil engineering 18 department at the University of Arkansas. 19 Q Okay. You took the words out of my mouth. 20 Are you from Arkansas? 21 A Yes. 22 Q You also have a civil engineering degree? 23 A My BS is in civil engineering and as I said, DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032799 BAIN & ASSOCIATES 54 1 the MS on the diploma actually says MS civil 2 engineering. 3Q Do you have a chemical background? 4 A I've studied chemistry as a part of my 5 master's program. 6Q Did part of that study involve PCBs? 7 A I don't believe so. 8 Q And when did you obtain these degrees, sir? 9 A I believe I got the BS in 1967, the master's 10 in 1969. 11 Q And after that, you were employed by 12 Monsanto? 13 A Correct. 14 Q And you have been employed by Monsanto ever 15 since then except when Solutia was formed? 16 A That's correct. 17 Q I mean, you're acompany man, right? 18 A I guess you would refer-- yes, I've been 19 with one company for a long period of time. 20 Q Do you consider yourself to be a company 21 man? 22 A No. 23 Q Why not? BAIN & ASSOCIATES DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032800 55 1 A Because when you say a company man, I don't 2 know what you refer to as a company man. 3 Q Well, what is -- 4 A When I think of company man, I don't think 5 of it in terms of that. 6 Q What do you think of when I say company man? 7 A I don't know what you mean by company man or 8 what you think. 9Q I'm asking you what you think company man 10 means. 11 A A man that works for a company. 12 Q Okay. You have already agreed, sir, that 13 because PCBs adhere to sediment and because sediment 14 moves within a water system, the PCBs stuck to that 15 sediment are mobile, correct? Did I hear you say 16 that? 17 A Yes. I think the way that we were 18 describing it while ago, that's correct. 19 Q And you certainly agree that PCBs are 20 persistent? 21 A It's my understanding that PCBs are 22 persistent in the environment. 23 Q What does persistent mean? BAIN & ASSOCIATES 56 DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032801 1A Tends to stay around in the environment 2 without a significant degree of biodegradation. 3 Q And it does so for decades, does it not? 4 A I'm not that knowledgeable of the half-lifes 5 of PCBs. I recognize that different PCBs have 6 different half-lifes and different degrees of 7 persistence. 8Q When you were down here in Anniston 9 conducting soil samples for PCB contamination, your 10 testing produced positive readings of PCBs, correct? 11 A I guess in the first place I didn't conduct 12 the soil sampling. 13 Q You were the head of the project? 14 A I coordinated the sampling of PCBs in soil 15 -- some of the sampling that was done. 16 Q And the work that was done was done under 17 your direction and control as the environmental 18 manager -- or the manager of environmental affairs for 19 Solutia and Monsanto? Now, I know you weren't out 20 there with a shovel, Mr. Eley. 21 A Yeah. 22 Q I mean, when we come in here today, we don't 23 have to leave our common sense at the door. We can BAIN & ASSOCIATES 57 1 use our common sense and it will make the process go 2 much quicker. Okay? I know you weren't digging DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032802 3 dirt. The people were digging dirt because you were 4 telling them to do it and you were in control of this 5 sampling project, right? 6 A Well, see, that's where it may be just an 7 issue of semantics. When we say direct and control, 8 I'm not so sure I was direct and control as much as 9 just coordinating. Clearly we had sampling experts. 10 Q But you had enough direction and control 11 over this sampling project to actually author many 12 letters sent to people of soils that y'all sampled, 13 right? 14 A I did author a number of letters that were 15 sent out. 16 Q And you were telling these people what the 17 sampling results were, were you not? 18 A That's correct. 19 Q And on some of these, if not a lot of these, 20 you were getting some pretty high readings of PCB 21 contamination, weren't you? 22 A There were some areas where PCBs were 23 detected at higher levels than others, than at other BAIN & ASSOCIATES 58 1 locations. 2Q Those PCBs came from Monsanto's plant, 3 didn't they? DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032803 4A I don't know. 5Q How in the world can you sit here today 6 under oath, Mr. Eley, and honestly tell me you don't 7 know that? 8 A I'm afraid I don't know how to respond to 9 that. 10 Q Well, you can respond by telling me how 11 you're denying it, your knowledge of it. 12 A Well, I guess primarily when we would go out 13 and sample, I would sample at a particular location. 14 Q They were right next to the plant, weren't 15 they? 16 A In certain -- there were some sample 17 locations that were next to the plant, other locations 18 were not next to the plant. 19 Q Well, let me ask you this: Will you agree 20 with me that Monsanto is at least a potential source 21 for that PCB contamination on these people's 22 properties that y'all were sampling? 23 A In some cases we were a potential or BAIN & ASSOCIATES 59 1 possible source. 2Q And would you go so far as to even say you 3 were a likely source in some of these cases you want 4 to talk about? 5A There are some areas where we would be the DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032804 6 likely source. 7Q So, is it also fair to say that in these 8 areas Monsanto's responsibility for a PCB source was 9 fairly established? 10 MR. COX: Object to the form. I just don't 11 understand the question, Pete. I'm sorry. If Bruce 12 does, he can answer it. 13 A I'm not sure I know or understand what 14 fairly established means. Fairly established in what 15 way or fairly established by whom? 16 Q Well, it was fairly established by Monsanto 17 that Monsanto was responsible for a PCB source in 18 those areas that you've said you were likely 19 responsible before. 20 A There were some areas where sampling was 21 conducted that I'm familiar with where the source of 22 PCB-containing sediment probably was derived from 23 Monsanto. BAIN & ASSOCIATES 60 1Q Does that mean that it is fairly established 2 in your mind that Monsanto was the cause of that PCB 3 being placed there? 4 A I think in my mind that in certain cases it 5 was established that it's likely that Monsanto was a 6 source. DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032805 7Q Tell me, sir, your personal knowledge of and 8 experience with PCBs. 9 A I have some knowledge of PCB manufacturing 10 from approximately 1972 to 1976 as an industrial 11 hygienist and then a very general familiarity with 12 PCBs in what reading I've done in literature over the 13 many past years. 14 Q Anything else? 15 A No. I think that would characterize my 16 knowledge of PCBs. 17 Q Did you receive any formal education or 18 training regarding PCBs either through universities, 19 seminars, Monsanto or Solutia? 20 A No. 21 Q You have taken some type of toxicology 22 courses in the past, have you not? You've taken some 23 type of toxicology courses in the past and in BAIN & ASSOCIATES 61 1 particular, industrial toxicology courses? 2 A I've had some seminars in industrial 3 toxicology, correct. 4 Q Were some of those at Wayne State? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Were PCBs discussed there? 7 A PCBs may have been. I don't recall. 8 Q It certainly doesn't stand out in your mind? DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032806 9 A No. 10 Q What about your personal involvement with 11 the toxicology of PCBs? Do you have any experience or 12 involvement with those issues? 13 A In terms of doing any testing or in terms of 14 deriving any toxicological experiments? 15 Q No. 16 A No. 17 Q I don't care -- I know you're not sitting 18 over a test tube pouring chemicals in or whatever 19 people do on these type issues. I'm talking about 20 sitting at your desk as a responsibility imposed upon 21 you as the manager of environmental affairs, do you 22 have any responsibility or involvement with toxicology 23 issues of PCBs? BAIN & ASSOCIATES 62 1 A No. 2 Q You know even absent that understanding 3 based on the literature that you've read that PCBs 4 cause chloracne or may cause chloracne? 5 A It's my understanding that that has been 6 reported in the literature. 7Q You wrote a thesis, did you not, regarding 8 how chemicals travel in water? 9 A I wrote a master's thesis on eutrophication DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032807 10 and specifically material balances or inflows, 11 outflows of phosphorous and nitrogen. 12 Q Could you spell eutrophication for my court 13 reporter, please? 14 A Eutrophication, e-u-t-r-o-p-h-i-c-a-t-i-o-n. 15 Q That's a lot of technical stuff you just 16 gave me in your answer. The bottom line is in 17 laymen's terms, your thesis dealt with how chemicals 18 traveled from a plant to a water source, correct? 19 A No. 20 Q It didn't have anything to do with that? 21 A It had nothing to do as far as I knew with 22 any plant or chemical operation. 23 Q Tell me your involvement with remediation of BAIN & ASSOCIATES 63 1 PCBs in the past, all of the remediation projects 2 regarding PCBs that you've worked on. 3A The only project that I personally have been 4 involved with that dealt with the remediation of PCB 5 material or PCBs in general has been at the Anniston, 6 Alabama plant starting approximately March 1996. 7 Q No other remediation projects? 8 A I don't believe so, no. 9Q And if you would, tell me the details of 10 your involvement in this project. What were you asked 11 to do and what did you do? DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032808 12 A I was involved in coordinating the off site 13 sampling as called for in a consent agreement or 14 consent order which was entered into by at the time 15 Monsanto and the Alabama Department of Environmental 16 Management. I was involved in the offering to various 17 residents in the area a temporary relocation and house 18 cleaning or cleaning of rugs, furniture, if they so 19 chose. I have been involved in the raising or tearing 20 down of various structures on Monsanto-acquired 21 properties. 22 I have had some involvement in discussions 23 with a number of our local neighbors on possible BAIN & ASSOCIATES 64 1 acquisition of some properties. 2 I have had some involvement in contacting 3 some of the -- some people that owned property 4 adjacent to Snow Creek to gain permission to do kind 5 of a walk survey and -- identification and 6 characterization of any dredge material along the bank 7 of Snow Creek. 8 I have been involved in contacting Monsanto 9 neighbors or Solutia neighbors. It may have been 10 Monsanto at the time. Our neighbors directly south of 11 our plant communicating to them the activity that we 12 had underway in or around our south landfill. I think DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032809 13 that's the areas of involvement that come to mind. 14 Q Why did Monsanto pick you to do all this if 15 you don't have any understanding of PCBs and health 16 effects of PCBs and the toxicology of PCBs? 17 A I specifically don't know why I was chosen. 18 Q You never asked anybody why you were chosen? 19 A No. 20 Q And you will agree with me sitting here 21 today that there are certainly people within Monsanto 22 or Solutia that are much more familiar with these 23 issues than you? BAIN & ASSOCIATES 65 1A There may be a couple of people. 2 Q Faust, Mr.Faust is one, right? 3 A I think Mr. Faust is certainly knowledgeable 4 -- much more knowledgeable on the total issues of 5 remediation -- of remediation of land. 6Q Mr. Kaley or Kaley? What's his name, Bob -- 7 A Bob - 8 MR. COX: Dr. Kaley. 9 A Dr. Kaley. 10 MR. LOWE:Ph D. Kaley. 11 Q Ph D. K-a-l-e-y? Dr. Kaley? 12 A Dr. Kaley. 13 Q He's one, right? 14 A That's correct. DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032810 15 Q Who else? 16 A A person that certainly is very 17 knowledgeable again of remediation, remediation 18 practices and remediation technology is Mike Foresman. 19 Q Anybody else? What about this doctor, Dr. 20 Shepperly, head of the Medical and Epidemiology 21 Department? Was he employed at Monsanto in the 1995, 22 '96 time frame when you were doing this work or 23 Solutia? BAIN & ASSOCIATES 66 1 A I don't believe so. 2Q Is there anybody that -- he's a medical 3 doctor, right? 4 A Correct. 5 Q And where did he get his degree? 6 MR. COX: If you know. 7Q And every question I ask you is premised on 8 the fact that you know. If you don't know, just say I 9 don't know. 10 A I think he got his degree at -- in Colorado. 11 Q At an accredited medical school? 12 A I believe that's so, yes. 13 Q Were there any medical doctors in the'95, 14 '96 time frame employed by either Monsanto or Solutia 15 that may have known more about PCB-related issues DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032811 16 including toxicology, human health effects, 17 environmental problems than you? 18 A There was a medical director at Monsanto. I 19 don't recall what his name -- what his name is and I'm 20 not familiar with really what his knowledge of PCBs 21 were. 22 Q And you never talked to him before, during 23 or after you were given this responsibility to come BAIN & ASSOCIATES 67 1 down and handle these issues on the remediation here 2 in Anniston relating to PCBs, did you? 3 A I've never met him. 4Q But you certainly could have picked up the 5 phone and called him and asked him any questions you 6 wanted about these types of issues and determined his 7 knowledge of PCBs and PCB exposure during that period 8 of time? 9 A I assume I could. 10 Q But you didn't do that? 11 A No. 12 Q We have focused primarily on people who are 13 above you in the chain of command. How many people 14 are employed by Monsanto in general, do you have any 15 idea, or Solutia? 16 MR. COX: That's two different answers 17 now. DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032812 18 Q When I say Monsanto, I meant the Monsanto 19 that had the plant, discharged the PCBs and now became 20 Solutia. How many people are employed in that 21 organization? 22 A Solutia? 23 Q I guess. BAIN & ASSOCIATES 68 1 A Solutia, Inc. has approximately a little 2 over 8,000 employees worldwide. 3Q And of those 8,000, you're pretty dam close 4 to the top, wouldn't you agree? 5 A I don't consider myself to be close to the 6 top. 7Q Well, you drew me a chart here, Plaintiffs 8 Exhibit 1, didn't you? Didn't you? 9 A Yes. 10 Q So, we've got one, two, three people above 11 you that are below the CEO of the company, right? 12 A Below the CEO? 13 Q Between you and the CEO, there are three 14 people? 15 A No. 16 Q Well, this is a chart you drew me, right? 17 A Correct. 18 MR. COX: He also told you it didn't include DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032813 19 the people above Mr. Pierle. 20 Q You've got Mr. Kaley. He's above you, 21 right? 22 A Right. 23 Q And you've got Mr. Foresman. He's above BAIN & ASSOCIATES 69 1 you? 2A Correct. 3Q And you've got Mr. Pierle? 4A Correct. 5Q That's three? 6A That's three. 7Q Who is above him that's between him and the 8 CEO? 9A I think it's a person named Ferguson. 10 Q 11 A What is his job title? I believe that Ferguson is the vice 12 president of shared services and supply chain. 13 Q He doesn't have anything to do with the 14 environment, PCBs, that type stuff, exposure levels? 15 A On a day-to-day basis, probably not. 16 Q Who is above him? Is that when we get to 17 the CEO? 18 A That would be our president and chief 19 operating officer, John Hunter. 20 Q And above Mr. Hunter? DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032814 21 A That would be Bob Potter who is the CEO. 22 Q So, there are five people between you and 23 the CEO? My only point in all this -- I mean, we're BAIN & ASSOCIATES 70 1 splitting hairs. Okay? We're splitting hairs because 2 I'm asking you questions and you're either hesitant to 3 answer them quickly or you don't understand my 4 question. In any event, I've got to go through this 5 tedious process of step by step by step to get to 6 where I'm going. 7 So, my point in all of this, Mr. Eley, is 8 there are five people between you and the chairman and 9 chief executive officer of Solutia above you? 10 A Correct. 11 Q And there are 8,000 employees of Solutia? 12 A Correct. 13 Q So - 14 A A little over 8,000. 15 Q -- on the chain of command, you are over 16 7,995 people from just a chain of command issue, 17 right? 18 A No. 19 Q Okay. And it's because you don't consider 20 many of these people to be in your department; is that 21 right? When you say no, you mean -- DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032815 22 A Most of the people are not in this 23 department. BAIN & ASSOCIATES 71 1Q And that's why you say no? 2A Correct. 3Q Now, of those people who are below you, sir, 4 do any of these people have to your knowledge job 5 responsibilities relating to PCB remediation 6 contamination issues or whatever you want to call it? 7 In other words, is there anybody below you in the 8 chain of command that knows more about PCBs and these 9 issues that we've been discussing than you? 10 A In our group? 11 MR. COX: No. He's talking about 12 company-wide in Solutia. 13 A Oh, company-wide in Solutia? 14 Q Right. 15 A Well, in the first place, I don't--I'm not 16 really knowledgeable of who is below me. I mean, I 17 personally know what my grade level is, but I don't 18 know the grade level of a lot of the other individuals 19 in our organization. 20 Q You don't know whether or not people below 21 you are more knowledgeable about PCB issues than you. 22 Fair statement? 23 A No, I don't know who is above or below me DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032816 BAIN & ASSOCIATES 72 1 the way that we've described it. 2Q You've named several individuals who you 3 felt had more knowledge than you about these. And the 4 individuals were Mr. Foresman, Mr. Kaley and I don't 5 --Mr. Faust. Can you think of anybody else 6 regardless of whether they're above or below you? 7A There may be other people that have more 8 knowledge than I on issues of -- related to PCBs. 9Q Well, I understand that. 10 MR. COX: Do you know who they are, Bruce? 11 Q I'm asking do you know who they are. 12 A For a fact, no. 13 Q Okay. In part of your remediation in 14 Anniston regarding PCBs -- which is I believe you said 15 the only proj ect you've ever worked on as far as 16 remediating PCBs, right? 17 A I believe that's correct. 18 Q I mean, you say you believe that's correct. 19 Is it because you're uncertain? I mean, is there some 20 other project out there that you may have been 21 involved with relating to PCB remediation? 22 A I don't believe there has been. 23 Q Again, you're saying believe. Are you BAIN & ASSOCIATES DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032817 73 1 trying to hedge your bets here? I mean, either you 2 have or you haven't. It's not a trick question, but 3 when you use those kinds of words, it makes me think 4 maybe there's something out there he's not talking 5 about. Maybe that's just how you want to be very 6 careful in your testimony and that's okay, but did you 7 do anything with any other PCB remediation project? 8 Sitting here today, can you recall another remediation 9 project that you worked on other than the one in 10 Anniston? 11 A No, I cannot. 12 Q Now, as part of your job responsibilities, 13 did you have anything to do with the removal of 14 sediment from Snow Creek? 15 A No. 16 Q Do you know anything about that? 17 A No. 18 Q Is today the first time you became aware 19 that Solutia removed sediment from Snow Creek that 20 contained PCBs? 21 MR. COX: Solutia or Monsanto? 22 MR. GRAMMAS: Whoever did it. I mean, I 23 don't know which one did it. BAIN & ASSOCIATES 74 DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032818 1Q They're interchangeable, aren't they? 2 Solutia and Monsanto with this Anniston plant are 3 interchangeable? 4 MR. COX: Well, except if you talk about 5 Solutia, you're really talking about an entity that 6 didn't exist until September 1st, 1997. So, if you're 7 talking about something that happened before September 8 1st, 1997, it could not have physically involved 9 Solutia. That's my only point. 10 Q Do you know whether or not Monsanto or 11 Solutia removed sediment in and around Snow Creek 12 because it was contaminated with PCB levels high 13 enough to remove it? Yes or no? 14 A No. 15 Q You never heard that before this question 16 that I just asked you; is that correct? 17 A That's correct. 18 Q And again, you're the manager of 19 environmental affairs, right? 20 A Manager of environmental affairs. 21 Q And PCB s in the environment come under 22 environmental affairs, doesn't it? It comes right 23 within your department, doesn't it? BAIN & ASSOCIATES 75 1A Generally the issue of PCBs are -- if 2 there's an issue, then that issue is directed to my DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032819 3 supervisor, Dr. Kaley. 4Q Okay. I'm going to ask you my question 5 again, sir. 6A Uh-huh. 7Q PCBs in the environment come squarely within 8 the Environmental Affairs Department. True or false? 9A I think that would be true because those 10 issues would be directed to Dr. Kaley and Dr. Kaley 11 happens to be our director of environmental affairs. 12 Q Well, if that's true, then why did Dr. Kaley 13 send you down to talk to all these people given your 14 lack of knowledge relating to all these PCB issues 15 rather than simply go himself? 16 A I think you would have to ask Dr. Kaley 17 that. I don't know. 18 Q When you were involved in the sampling, did 19 Monsanto agree to sample these properties because the 20 Alabama Department of Environmental Management forced 21 you to do it? 22 A It's my understanding that the sampling was 23 done because that was addressed in the consent BAIN & ASSOCIATES 76 1 agreement or consent order. 2Q The consent order was entered into as a way 3 to resolve an adversarial proceeding between the DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032820 4 Alabama Department of Environmental Management and 5 Monsanto, correct? 6A I'm not really familiar with the origin of 7 that consent order. 8Q Who authored the letters that you sent to 9 these people that you sampled their properties for 10 PCBs? 11 A Those letters? 12 Q I'm not talking about these in particular. 13 The letters that you sent to people saying dear so and 14 so, with your permission Monsanto came out and we 15 sampled some soil samples, we've now obtained the 16 results, we've determined that your soil samples had X 17 amount of PCBs per million. 18 A There were some letters that I authored. 19 Q You actually physically chose the words to 20 write on those letters? 21 A And type them into a PC. 22 Q Did anybody sign off, for a lack of a better 23 word, on these letters that you wrote to these people? BAIN & ASSOCIATES 77 1A Those letters were generally approved by my 2 supervisor, Dr. Kaley. 3Q You didn't send a single letter to any 4 neighbor of Monsanto's whose property you tested for 5 PCB contamination without Dr. Kaley looking over it DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032821 6 and approving the form and the content, correct? 7 A I believe that's correct. 8 Q Did he change anything in what you said? 9A As I recall, there were some changes, minor 10 wording changes. 11 Q Like what? 12 A I believe that there was a reference to an 13 analytical technique, gas chromatography, and there 14 may have been a modification by Dr. Kaley to better 15 explain what that meant or explain that procedure. 16 Q Any other changes that come to mind? 17 A No, that's the -- I think that's the 18 principal change I recall. 19 Q I've read a sample of your letters. I'm not 20 representing that I've read them all. I've read what 21 Monsanto has produced to me. And nowhere in these 22 letters do I read where you warn these property owners 23 of the potential adverse human health effects of them BAIN & ASSOCIATES 78 1 being exposed to PCBs on their property. Is that a 2 fair statement? 3A That's correct. 4Q But you are aware that at some of these 5 parts -- for example, I've picked this one right here, 6 an October 9th, 1996 letter by Mr. Zanzig. I'm going DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032822 7 to mark it as Plaintiffs Exhibit 3. 8 MR. COX: Can you read out the Bates number? 9 MR. GRAMMAS: Yes. DSW046816. 10 MR. COX: Thank you. 11 12 (Plaintiffs Exhibit Number 3 was marked for 13 identification.) 14 Q That's a letter that bears your signature; 15 is that correct? 16 A That's correct. 17 Q And in that letter there are extremely high 18 levels of PCB found on this man's property. Would you 19 agree with that statement? 20 MR. COX: Object to the form. 21 A Some of those levels are high. 22 Q You don't think they're what I would call 23 extremely high? BAIN & ASSOCIATES 79 1 A I don't know what extremely high means. 2 Q Okay. Well, y'all had a threshold when you 3 were out there sampling, didn't you, Mr. Eley? 4A We used a screening technique that 5 screened at a certain level. 6Q The screening was five parts per million, 7 wasn't it? 8A That's correct. DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032823 9 Q Five? 10 A Five. 11 Q 05? One, two, three, four, five parts per 12 million, right? 13 A Correct. 14 Q And y'all wanted to know PCB contamination 15 at anything over five parts per million, right? 16 A No. The purpose was to determine what the 17 levels of PCB were on the property. 18 Q Over five parts per million? 19 A Over five, under five. 20 Q Well, what does the level five parts per 21 million mean? 22 A That was a screening level that was used by 23 the Alabama Department of Environmental Management. BAIN & ASSOCIATES 80 1Q Well, you understand that if it came in at 2 under five at that screening level it would show it 3 nondetect, wouldn't it? 4A It would show it as being nondetectable or 5 below the screening level of five ppm. 6Q Right. So, you very well may have tested 7 some soil that showed up based on your screening level 8 as nondetect and there was in fact PCBs there, right? 9A At any level, that's correct. DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032824 10 Q So, when you say nondetect on some of these 11 test results, you're not saying that it isn't there, 12 are you? You're saying simply that at the screening 13 level you chose to implement you didn't detect it 14 there? 15 A That's generally the way that a level of 16 detection would be expressed, that's correct. 17 Q And an analogy is if a man is driving a 18 vehicle down the road going 90 miles an hour in a 70 19 mile an hour speed zone and a police officer is 20 sitting on the side of the road but doesn't have his 21 radar gun on him, the police officer did not detect 22 his speed to be 90 miles an hour, right? 23 A That's correct, because he didn't have his BAIN & ASSOCIATES 81 1 radar gun on him. 2Q But that does not mean that the man wasn't 3 going 90 miles an hour, does it? 4A That would be correct. 5Q It just means that the cop didn't know he 6 was going 90 miles an hour, right? 7A That's correct. 8Q Okay. So, when you check at a detectable 9 level of five parts per million, you don't want this 10 jury to think that when those tests results came back 11 nondetect that there wasn't any PCBs necessarily on DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032825 12 the property, do you? 13 A Repeat that, please. 14 Q Yes, sir. You don't want the jury to think 15 if you get up on the stand and swear under oath that 16 on some of these results based on a five parts per 17 million detection level the results were nondetect. 18 You don't want them to take from that that there were 19 no PCB s on that property? 20 A Above that level, that would be correct. 21 Q Below the level. Do you see what I'm 22 saying? I'm talking about the other side. If you're 23 testing at five parts per million, there very well may BAIN & ASSOCIATES 82 1 be PCBs below five parts per million that you'll never 2 pick up, right? It's a simple concept. 3A If we're testing below the level of five 4 ppm. 5Q No, sir. If the test result level is five 6 parts per million, for whatever reason. 7 A Okay. 8Q If you're testing a piece of soil that has 9 PCBs below five parts per million, your test results 10 aren't going to pick that up, are they? 11 A The test results would not determine 12 specifically if it were 2.5 ppm or 3 ppm. It would DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032826 13 indicate that the result is less than your screening 14 level or less than the level of detection you used for 15 that particular analyses. 16 Q Right. It would say nondetect at five parts 17 per million? 18 A Nondetect at -- nondetectable at a 19 particular level. 20 Q Five parts per million is the one y'all 21 chose, right? So, there very well may be samples that 22 came up as nondetect in y'all's test results that 23 actually did contain PCBs, you just didn't know it, BAIN & ASSOCIATES 83 1 right? 2A That may have contained lesser amounts of 3 PCB, that's correct. 4Q Now, why did Monsanto select five parts per 5 million as the level? 6A I believe we chose that level because that 7 was the testing procedure that had been used by, I 8 believe, both the Alabama Department of Environmental 9 Health and the Alabama Department of Environmental 10 Management. 11 Q Okay. Well, you know and Monsanto knows 12 that one part per million is the standard that the EPA 13 recommends for -- is the absolute maximum standard the 14 EPA allows for residential property which is DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032827 15 contaminated with PCBs, don't you? 16 A No, I don't know that. 17 Q And you don't know that because you don't 18 have any of those responsibilities at Monsanto, now 19 Solutia, right? 20 A Any of what responsibilities? 21 Q To know what detection -- what levels the 22 EPA says you can't exceed and residential property you 23 can't exceed and industrial property. You don't know BAIN & ASSOCIATES 84 1 anything about PCB contamination anywhere, do you? 2A Anywhere? I've got a general 3 familiarization with the PCB remediation project at 4 Anniston. 5Q But before then, you've never had any work 6 experience with PCB remediation, have you? 7 A PCB remediation, no, I don't believe so. 8 Q And after that you've never had any, have 9 you? 10 A After the -- after what? 11 Q After -- well, are you still involved in the 12 remediation in Anniston? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Other than this one you've already testified 15 to, you have never done any PCB remediation? DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032828 16 A Correct. 17 Q You've never been charged with the 18 responsibility at Monsanto to remediate PCBs? 19 A That is correct. 20 Q And that's why you don't know what the EPA 21 recommends. Is that what you're telling me? 22 A I'm not familiar with the EPA regulations on 23 PCBs. BAIN & ASSOCIATES 85 1Q Who dealt with the Alabama Department of 2 Environmental Management at Monsanto on determining 3 what level they would test at for these people's 4 property? 5A That may have been Dr. Kaley. 6Q Did he tell you why he chose five parts per 7 million or suggested five parts per million or how 8 that came about? 9A As I recall, the only knowledge I've got of 10 that is that screening level was chosen because that 11 was the screening level that had been used by the 12 state regulatory authorities. 13 Q In any event, Mr. Eley, nondetect under your 14 testing criteria simply means that any PCBs, if there, 15 are less than five parts per million? 16 A In many cases, that's true. 17 Q Now, I showed you Plaintiffs Exhibit 3 and DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032829 18 there is a letter to Mr. Zanzig about some of the test 19 results that y'all obtained on the property, right? 20 On his property, right? 21 A That is correct. 22 Q And you tested it at seven different spots, 23 right? BAIN & ASSOCIATES 86 1 A Correct. 2 Q And one of thosespots contained 990 parts 3 per million PCBs, right? 4A That was the analytical result, correct. 5Q And you're not disagreeing with the result, 6 are you? 7 A No. 8 Q And the lowest -- that was thehighest one, 9 right? 10 A That's correct. 11 Q The lowest one is 26.3 parts per million, 12 right? 13 A That's correct. 14 Q Now, would you not consider over 900, close 15 to a thousand parts per million an extremely high 16 level of PCB contamination on Mr. Zanzig's property? 17 A I would consider that to be a high level of 18 PCBs. DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032830 19 Q But not extremely high? You wouldn't want 20 to live on property that had almost a thousand parts 21 per million of PCB contamination in your soil, would 22 you? 23 A I don't believe Mr. Zanzig lives on this BAIN & ASSOCIATES 87 1 property. 2Q You, sir, would not want to live on property 3 that has 990 parts per million contamination of PCB in 4 the soil, would you? 5 A I personally might. 6Q It wouldn't bother you at all? 7 A It might not. 8Q Do you have any grandchildren? 9A No. 10 Q Do you have any children? 11 A No. 12 Q Do you have a wife? 13 A No. 14 Q Have you ever been married? 15 A No. 16 Q Nephews, nieces, younger family members? 17 A Some younger cousins. 18 Q And you said it might not bother you. Is 19 that an indirect way of saying it might bother you? 20 A No. I think I would have to consider that a DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032831 21 little bit further. 22 Q What would you consider? 23 A I think that the things I would be looking BAIN & ASSOCIATES 88 1 at is -- you said on my property. I would have to 2 look at where on the property, what the potential for 3 exposure was and those types of factors other than 4 just a number. 5Q Well, let's assume that it was very near 6 your home and you were exposed to it on a daily basis, 7 perhaps a sidewalk, a dirt sidewalk or a gravel 8 driveway or a garden that you liked to spend a lot of 9 time in. Let's assume that the PCB levels were in 10 those types of areas. Would you want to get it off 11 your property? 12 A You mean in those soils? 13 Q Yes. These are soil samples you were 14 taking, aren't they? 15 A Right. But I just wanted to make sure in 16 the scenario you discussed we were still talking about 17 PCBs in soil. 18 Q We are. And it's a hypothetical question. 19 A Because you mentioned something about a 20 gravel driveway or some type of -- 21 Q Okay. If s a hypothetical question, Mr. DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032832 22 Eley. 23 A Okay. BAIN & ASSOCIATES 89 1Q And the question is if you owned property 2 where there was a thousand parts per million or here, 3 990 parts per million of PCB contamination in your 4 soil and it was soil that you came into contact with 5 on a daily basis either through gardening or cutting 6 your grass or playing in the yard with your dog or 7 whatever it is that you do, would you want to either 8 move from that house or remove this contaminated soil 9 from your property based on what you know about PCBs? 10 A Probably not. 11 Q It still wouldn't bother you? 12 A Huh-uh. 13 Q Is that why you didn't warn Mr. Zanzig about 14 these levels because it doesn't personally bother you? 15 A No. 16 Q Do you think Mr. Zanzig is reasonable in 17 worrying about these levels? 18 MR. COX: If you know. Are you asking him 19 to assume Mr. Zanzig is worried or are you asking -- 20 MR. GRAMMAS: Right. 21 Q Do you think it would be reasonable for a 22 property owner to be concerned about these levels 23 given the EPA standard at a maximum one part per DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032833 BAIN & ASSOCIATES 90 1 million for residential property? 2 MR. COX: Object to the form. 3A Is that a -- well, I guess I earlier said I 4 am not fully aware of exactly what those -- 5 Q Regardless of whatever the standard is, you 6 have testified that that 990 parts per million is even 7 in your estimate a high level of PCB contamination, 8 right? 9A That's a high level of PCBs in soil. 10 Q And again, you're hesitant to use the word 11 "contamination," but it isn't there naturally, is it? 12 A No. 13 Q It's a manmade chemical, right? 14 A Correct. 15 Q And the men that made this chemical were 16 employed by Monsanto, right? 17 A At one time, we were a producer of PCBs. 18 Q You said a producer. You were -- Monsanto 19 was the only producer of PCBs in the entire United 20 States, isn't that true? 21 A Correct, yes. 22 Q And certainly the only producer in Anniston? 23 A That's correct. BAIN & ASSOCIATES DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032834 91 1Q So, if it's not there naturally and it's 2 there now and you're the only one that made it, how 3 can you sit here under oath and tell this jury that 4 it's not there because of Monsanto? 5A What, in this specific case? 6Q In the entire area that we're talking about, 7 this entire class area. Monsanto is the most likely 8 source of PCB contamination, true? 9A I wouldn't say that, no. 10 Q Why not? 11 A Well, I think up until now we've just talked 12 about manufacturing. We really haven't talked about 13 use. If you have someone that uses PCB in various 14 products, formulations, then I don't know where those 15 particular products came from. 16 Q Well, if Monsanto is the only company that 17 makes it, didn't it come from Monsanto? 18 A We're not the only person that ever made 19 PCBs. 20 Q Y'all made 98 percent of the PCBs in the 21 world. Are you aware of that? 22 A No, I'm not aware of that. 23 Q Does that come as a surprise to you? BAIN & ASSOCIATES 92 DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032835 1A Yes. 2Q Name all the companies that you're aware 3 of that have made PCBs. 4A I'm not aware of the specific companies. I 5 believe PCBs were made in Poland, Russia, 6 Czechoslovakia, France, Italy, perhaps England. There 7 may have been PCB manufactured in South America, but 8 I'm not sure of all of those companies and that's why 9 I- 10 Q Did Monsanto attempt to identify these 11 companies and determine whether those companies were 12 responsible for putting the PCBs on these properties 13 that y'all are sampling? 14 A Not to my knowledge. 15 Q And that's because common sense tells you 16 that when you've made hundreds of thousands -- how 17 many pounds of PCBs did Monsanto make in Anniston over 18 the years? 19 A I don't know. 20 Q Hundreds of millions? 21 A I have no idea. 22 Q Would that be an overexaggeration? 23 A Hundreds of millions? 1Q 2A BAIN & ASSOCIATES 93 Yeah. I really don't know. DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032836 3Q Does that sound like too big of a number or 4 does that sound about right to you? 5A I really -- I have no knowledge of exactly 6 what our production was. 7Q Millions of pounds? 8A It could have been millions of pounds. 9Q Somewhere between millions of pounds and 10 hundreds of millions or maybe -- you just don't know. 11 At a minimum, we're talking about millions of pounds 12 of PCBs, okay? Right? 13 A I would think over that long a period of 14 time it would be millions of pounds. 15 Q And given the fact that y'all made millions 16 of pounds of this stuff over what, a 40-something year 17 period, are you telling -- 18 A '35 to '71,1 believe -- or '76. 19 Q Are you telling this jury that it is your 20 opinion that Monsanto is not the likely source of PCB 21 contamination in this area? 22 A No. I think I'm saying that I don't know. 23 Q I'm asking you what your opinion is. Based BAIN & ASSOCIATES 94 1 on all of the facts as you know them, based on the 2 fact that Monsanto is the only manufacturer of this 3 chemical in the United States, based on the fact that DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032837 4 Monsanto made millions of pounds of it, based on the 5 fact that they used to sewer -- do you know what that 6 is, sewering PCBs and sewering -- 7 MR. GRAMMAS: What type of acid was it, 8 sulfuric? 9 MR. LOWE: Muric acid. 10 Q Muric acid? You knew that they would take 11 millions -- or hundreds of thousands of pounds of this 12 stuff and sewer it, flush it right down the sewer? 13 Did you know that? 14 A No, I didn't know that. 15 Q Does that bother you to know that? 16 MR. COX:Object to the form. 17 Q Does that bother you to know that you worked 18 for a company for over a 35-year period which was 19 flushing PCBs in a pipe in a ditch into Snow Creek? 20 MR. COX:Object to the form. 21 A No. 22 Q Doesn't bother you at all? 23 A No. BAIN & ASSOCIATES 95 1Q How can that not bother you, sir? 2 A It just doesn't. 3Q Is it because you don't care about the 4 people that live in and around that area? 5 A No. DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032838 6 Q Do you care about them? 7 A Yes. 8Q Do you think that Monsanto should care about 9 their health? 10 A I believe Monsanto and Solutia certainly 11 does. 12 Q And do you think that if Monsanto and 13 Solutia were responsible for dumping all these PCBs 14 into Snow Creek, Choccolocco Creek and Lake Logan 15 Martin they should clean it out? 16 MR. COX: Object to the form. 17 A Is that a hypothetical? 18 Q No. That's not a hypothetical. 19 A But I personally don't know of past -- 20 Q I understand you don't know. I understand 21 that, Mr. Eley. 22 A -- discharge or environmental practices 23 surrounding the Anniston plant. BAIN & ASSOCIATES 96 1Q I understand that. I understand perfectly. 2 Now, if Monsanto dumped PCBs off of its property in 3 sewer systems into Snow Creek, Choccolocco Creek and 4 Lake Logan Martin and those PCBs are still there 5 today, don't you think that they have the obligation 6 to remediate that? DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032839 7 MR. COX: Object to the form. Go ahead and 8 answer. 9A I would think they would certainly have an 10 obligation to work with the Alabama Department of 11 Environmental Management to determine what actions 12 would be necessary under those regulations. 13 Q Isn't that the very reason why Monsanto 14 right now as we sit here today is doing that, Mr. 15 Eley? That's a question. Isn't that the reason why 16 they're doing it? Solutia is working with the Alabama 17 Department of Environmental Management right now about 18 possible remediation, right? 19 A I'm aware that we are working with and I 20 think are our whole project is being coordinated 21 through the Alabama Department of Environmental 22 Management. 23 Q And you're also aware of the lawsuit that BAIN & ASSOCIATES 97 1 you're testifying under oath today about, aren't you? 2A I don't have a great deal of knowledge about 3 the lawsuit, but I'm -- 4Q But you understand, sir -- one of the first 5 things you testified to was this is a lawsuit about 6 PCB contamination in Snow Creek, Choccolocco Creek and 7 Lake Logan Martin, right? 8A I believe that I indicated that I'm DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032840 9 generally aware of the lawsuit that deals with PCB 10 issues surrounding Choccolocco -- 11 Q Are you aware -- 12 MR. COX: Let him finish. 13 MR. GRAMMAS: I'm sorry. 14 A Surrounding Choccolocco Creek and Lake Logan 15 Martin. 16 Q You're aware that as part of this lawsuit 17 the plaintiffs have asked for injunctive relief, are 18 you not? 19 A No. 20 Q Do you know what that means? 21 A I do not. 22 Q Injunctive relief means the plaintiffs are 23 asking the court to issue an order requiring BAIN & ASSOCIATES 98 1 remediation. Were you not aware of that before today? 2A I don't believe so, no. 3 MR. COX: Can I have another break? 4 MR. GRAMMAS: Yeah. 5 (A break was taken.) 6Q Mr. Eley, tell me, if you would, please, 7 sir, who Monsanto competed with in selling PCBs from 8 the 19 -- early 1930s until 1976 when it stopped 9 manufacturing it here in the United States. DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032841 10 A Who they competed with, other manufacturers 11 in the United States? 12 Q Right. 13 A As I understand, Monsanto was the only 14 manufacturer of PCBs in the United States. 15 Q I understand that, but -- 16 MR. COX: He's talking in terms of sales. 17 Q Does that mean that no other manufacturers 18 sold PCBs in the United States? 19 A Oh, I don't know. I don't know. I'm aware 20 of generally that PCBs were manufactured ex-U.S. in a 21 number of different countries. I'm not familiar with 22 the import of PCBs or the distribution of PCBs, the 23 marketing of PCB or PCB formulations in the U.S. BAIN & ASSOCIATES 99 1Q So, sitting here today, you can't identify 2 one competitor Monsanto had inside the continental 3 United States for PCB sales? 4A That's correct, I cannot. 5Q Why did Monsanto stop manufacturing PCBs? 6 First of all, it was profitable, was it not, very 7 profitable? 8A I don't know how profitable it was. I 9 assume that it was profitable because we continued to 10 make, manufacture PCBs for a long period of time. 11 Q Close to 40 years, right? DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032842 12 A I believe that's correct. 13 Q Why did Monsanto stop making it? 14 A As I understand, we voluntarily discontinued 15 the manufacture of PCBs in -- I believe it was around 16 1976. Exactly what the basis of that decision was, I 17 personally don't know. 18 Q I'm not sure when you say you voluntarily 19 surrendered -- I think that's the word you used. 20 Discontinued? 21 A Voluntarily. I believe we voluntarily 22 discontinued the manufacture of PCBs. 23 Q Why did you do that? BAIN & ASSOCIATES 100 1A I personally don't know. 2Q Why did you use the word "voluntary" there? 3 It seems to me like any time a company makes the 4 decision to stop manufacturing something it's a 5 voluntary decision. Is that not true in this case? 6A Well, I think anything -- it can be 7 voluntary or involuntary. 8Q Well, I understand that, but generally when 9 somebody stops making something, a company stops 10 making something, it's because they choose not to, 11 right? 12 A Not in all cases. DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032843 13 Q And the reason you used the word "voluntary" 14 here is because Monsanto knew at that time that the 15 EPA regulations were around the corner and in 16 particular, congressional regulations were right 17 around the comer that were going to require you to 18 stop -- Monsanto to stop making PCBs, right? 19 A I really haven't got a good understanding of 20 exactly what occurred during that period of time. 21 Q Could Monsanto make PCBs today if it wanted 22 to? 23 A I don't believe so. BAIN & ASSOCIATES 101 1Q And why is that, sir? 2 A I think because of TSCA regulations. 3 Q What does that stand for? 4A Toxic Substances Control Act. 5Q Monsanto could not make PCBs today and sell 6 commercially because the federal government has 7 outlawed that -- the manufacture of PCBs under the 8 Toxic Substances Control Act. Is that what I'm 9 hearing you say? 10 A I believe that the EPA under TSCA has banned 11 the manufacture and use of PCBs. 12 Q And the EPA did that because if s bad- 13 PCBs are bad for the environment and are labeled as 14 potential human carcinogens, right? DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032844 15 A I specifically don't know that. 16 Q Do you have a general understanding of that 17 as the environmental manager -- as the manager of 18 environmental affairs at Solutia? 19 A I have an understanding that those 20 regulations were put in place and that requirements 21 came forth from TSCA because of environmental issues 22 and it may have been -- another factor may have been 23 the animal studies done in the 1970s. BAIN & ASSOCIATES 102 1Q Animal studies conclude that exposure to PCB 2 causes cancer, do they not? 3A In certain animal species at certain levels, 4 that's correct. 5Q And you're not disputing that those are -- 6 those test results are a good comparison to whether or 7 not these same compounds, PCBs, will have the same 8 effects in human beings, are you? 9A That's really outside of my expertise. 10 Q But Monsanto has guidelines where it 11 recognizes that it is necessary for animals to be 12 tested, correct? 13 A I don't know whether we've specifically 14 got -- Solutia has specifically got guidelines that 15 say that it's necessary for animals to be tested. DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032845 16 Q When you were employed with Monsanto, did 17 you ever become aware of any guidelines where they 18 said in essence we, Monsanto, know that animals are 19 necessary to be tested or utilized in studies to 20 determine the potential toxic effects of the chemicals 21 we're making but that we will use these animals in a 22 method that's humane and proper or whatever else they 23 were trying to -- the other message they were trying BAIN & ASSOCIATES 103 1 to convey? Are you aware of that? 2A I don't recall any guidelines of that sort. 3 There may have been, but not to my knowledge. 4 Q What does the phrase "PCB-free" mean to you? 5 A PCB-free? 6 Q Yes, sir. 7 A To me that meansthat you have an entity of 8 a specific compound or something of that sort that has 9 no detectable levels of PCB. 10 Q If Monsanto said we want our sites to be 11 PCB-free and now Solutia, one of our goals is to have 12 our sites to be PCB-free, that means to invoke a 13 process to make sure that the property in that site 14 has no detectable levels of PCB, right? 15 A That's the way I would interpret that, yes. 16 Q Do you believe that PCBs are a hazardous 17 compound? DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032846 18 A Yes. 19 Q Do you believe that they are acutely 20 hazardous? 21 A At high enough concentrations, yes. 22 Q And how do you define hazardous, sir, in 23 answering those last two questions? BAIN & ASSOCIATES 104 1A Generally hazardous in my way of thinking is 2 defined under the OSHA hazardous communication 3 standard where if something is hazardous, that it is 4 shown to be a -- either a health hazard or a physical 5 hazard in any studies that show statistically 6 significant health effects or physical parameters, 7 explosivity, flammability. So, there's a number of 8 categories of hazard. 9Q And PCBs in your mind are hazardous because 10 at certain levels they are -- they have adverse health 11 effects on human beings, correct? Is that what you 12 mean when you say health effects, you're talking about 13 human beings? 14 A Well, under the OSHA definition of hazard, 15 it can either be effects on humans or if you've got 16 statistically significant studies in animals, then 17 those compounds could possibly carry the same hazard. 18 And so, I think that you can have criteria that DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032847 19 pertain to both humans and animals under the OSHA 20 definition of hazard. 21 Q And PCBs fit within that? 22 A Correct. 23 Q You've testified earlier in a deposition -- BAIN & ASSOCIATES 105 1 and I'm going to ask you if you still hold that 2 position -- that PCBs pose a hazard to aquatic 3 systems, wildlife and to human beings? 4A That's my understanding, correct. 5Q You also testified earlier -- and I want to 6 make sure that's still your testimony -- that Monsanto 7 accepts responsibility for putting the PCBs on the 8 areas of property that you are seeking to now 9 remediate? Is that a fair statement? 10 A I believe that's true, correct. 11 Q Part of that, sir, is buying these 12 neighbor's property around the plant, right? Correct? 13 MR. COX: You need to answer yes or no. 14 Q Yeah. If you say uh-huh or huh-uh-- 15 MR. COX: She can't write that down very 16 well. 17 Q You have to say yes or-- 18 A What? 19 Q I thought you said uh-huh. 20 A Oh, no, I didn't. I'm sorry. I didn't DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032848 21 mean to say that. You misunderstood me. If you could 22 repeat that, please. 23 Q Sure. The property that Monsanto BAIN & ASSOCIATES 106 1 purchased -- 2A Yes. 3Q -- near the site in Anniston was 4 contaminated with PCBs, correct? 5A Correct. There's a number of areas on the 6 east side, the north side areas that had detectable 7 levels of PCBs in soils and sediment. 8Q And in the past you've testified that 9 Monsanto accepts responsibility for those PCBs and 10 even here today you just said that Monsanto accepts 11 responsibility for those PCBs, right? 12 A In certain areas we do, correct. 13 Q Right. In the areas of the property that 14 you've purchased? 15 A Adj acent to the plant where those properties 16 were impacted by the drainage system or drainage 17 patterns, that's correct. 18 Q Why is it, sir, that you -- that Monsanto 19 purchased this property? 20 A Principally the property both on the east 21 side and the north side were purchased so that we DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032849 22 could put in the remediation construction that either 23 has been placed in or is currently being placed in BAIN & ASSOCIATES 107 1 those areas. 2Q Did Monsanto trace the drainage systems 3 through these properties that you purchased? 4A We had hydrologists that looked at the 5 drainage patterns and which drainage ditches handled 6 the storm water runoff of our location. And I would 7 say yes, that would fit into that definition. 8Q And you concluded that the drainage started 9 at the Monsanto plant, left Monsanto's plant and went 10 on to this property, right? 11 A Went from the drainage -- went directly from 12 the Monsanto property on to -- 13 Q The property that you bought. 14 A The properties on the east side -- not all 15 properties we bought, but on to the east side and some 16 of the north side properties, correct. 17 Q And in history those drainage systems 18 contained PCBs that left Monsanto's property and got 19 on to these properties, right? 20 A Well, they would have left Monsanto property 21 as a part of those ditch systems and then those ditch 22 systems ran through some of the adjacent properties 23 and some of those properties did have detectable DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032850 BAIN & ASSOCIATES 108 1 levels of PCBs, other properties did not. 2Q I understand that. I didn't ask you about 3 detectable levels of PCB. What I said was the 4 drainage system that you're talking about left 5 Monsanto's property carrying PCBs from Monsanto' 6 property on to neighboring properties, right? 7A And I'm saying that -- 8Q Is that yes or no? 9A It's partially correct. 10 Q And the reason if s partially correct is 11 because some areas were nondetect and some were 12 detect, right? 13 A That's correct. 14 Q And you've already testified earlier -- I 15 thought you did -- when it shows nondetect, that 16 doesn't mean it isn't there; it just means you didn't 17 detect it, right? 18 A That's correct. 19 Q Because it could be there at lower than five 20 parts per million on the sample that y'all tested, 21 right? 22 A The areas, though, that we're now talking 23 about on the east side -- well, on the east side I was BAIN & ASSOCIATES DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] 109 1 not involved in that sampling, nor am I aware of 2 specifically what screening level was used on the east 3 side of -- the properties on the east side. 4 Q Monsanto would not have bought property from 5 people who had their property contaminated with PCBs 6 if it did not feel like it was the source of those 7 PCBs, would it have? 8 A Perhaps it would have. 9 Q Under what -- 10 A Maybe. 11 Q -- scenario, sir? 12 A If the property we felt was needed to 13 design some type of engineering basin, containment 14 system or some other edifice. 15 Q Tell me one site in the country, sir, that 16 you're aware of that Monsanto went out, purchased 17 property relating to PCB contamination in which it did 18 not feel at least in some part responsible for the 19 contamination. Tell me one single site which you're 20 aware of. 21 A Are we talking about--when you say site, 22 are we talking about sites other than the Anniston 23 location? BAIN & ASSOCIATES 110 DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032852 1Q Right. 2A I'm not familiar with PCB remediation at any 3 other sites other than Anniston. 4Q Are you familiar with any sites at all 5 either through any of the literature or anything? Are 6 you aware of a single occasion where Monsanto thought 7 to itself well, I'm going to go out and buy up 8 property and try to remediate some PCB contamination 9 even though we're not responsible for it at least in 10 part? 11 A Well, I think I just said earlier, I'm not 12 really familiar with any remediation projects other 13 than Anniston involving PCBs. 14 Q Well, let's talk about Anniston then. 15 A Okay. 16 Q You are aware of that remediation project 17 because you've had substantial contact and work on 18 that proj ect, right? 19 A Most of the-- 20 Q Is that correct? 21 A Yeah, most of it -- yes. 22 Q That's a correct statement? 23 A Uh-huh. BAIN & ASSOCIATES 111 1Q And you know, sir, as the manager of 2 environmental affairs that Monsanto embarked on a DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032853 3 remediation effort to remove the PCBs and contain the 4 PCBs on these neighboring properties around the plant 5 because Monsanto believed it was responsible for 6 putting them there, correct? 7A Excuse me. If you would, repeat that, 8 please. 9Q You know as the manager of environmental 10 affairs for Monsanto at the time that Monsanto agreed 11 to purchase these neighboring properties around its 12 Anniston plant and to remediate the PCB problem there 13 because Monsanto was the responsible party for putting 14 them there? 15 MR. COX: Object to the form. 16 A I think in certain cases we were the 17 contributor in all likelihood to PCBs on our adjacent 18 properties. 19 Q Do you recall being asked this question in 20 your July -- or a question similar to this in your 21 July 17th, 1998 deposition? Do you recall that? 22 A Similar to what? 23 Q In which cases, sir -- strike that last BAIN & ASSOCIATES 112 1 question. In which cases was Monsanto not a 2 contributor of the PCB contamination on these 3 properties that you purchased? DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032854 4A In which cases. You mean in which specific 5 properties? 6 Q Right. 7A I think that there were some properties 8 where -- that we did purchase that had no detectable 9 levels of PCB. There were other pieces of property 10 we've purchased that I don't believe that we 11 contributed in any way to the PCBs. 12 Q How did they get there? 13 A It may have been through fill dirt or fill 14 material brought in from outside that particular 15 property. 16 Q Why do you think dirt was brought in from 17 outside the property? 18 A Because there are certain areas that in my 19 view are obviously fill material. 20 Q Do you know where the dirt came from? 21 A No. 22 Q It could come from Monsanto's landfill, 23 couldn't it? BAIN & ASSOCIATES 113 1A Well, I guess right now our landfills I 2 believe are fenced in, so I don't know how people 3 would have come and got dirt out of there. 4Q Do you know how long the landfills have been 5 fenced in? DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032855 6A No, I do not. 7Q Do you how long this dirt that you think 8 wasn't the original dirt there and that was brought in 9 as fill has been there? 10 A No, I do not. 11 Q So you don't know sitting here today whether 12 that came from the landfill or not, do you, regardless 13 of the fence? 14 A That's correct. 15 Q So, you don't know -- first of all, you're 16 not here testifying that this was dirt that was not 17 original on this property, are you? That's just your 18 speculation, correct? 19 MR. COX: You're asking for his opinion. 20 He's giving it to you. 21 A There are certain cases where I'm pretty 22 sure that -- 23 Q You believe it was brought in? BAIN & ASSOCIATES 114 1A -- the material that's on certain properties 2 certainly is not native soil to Alabama. 3Q What is that? 4A Your native soil typically is a clay type 5 material. 6Q What properties are we talking about here? DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032856 7 Can you identify them by name, location? 8 A Of fill material or what? 9 Q Sure. I want to know -- you said that 10 Monsanto takes responsibility for PCB contamination 11 some of these properties, right? 12 A I think I said that Monsanto I think is the 13 likely contributor of PCBs on some of the properties. 14 On some of the properties I'm convinced we are not. 15 Q And that's the ones I'm talking about right 16 now. 17 A Correct. 18 Q Which properties are you convinced that 19 Monsanto -- 20 A This is one property. 21 Q Oh, Mr. Zanzig's? 22 A Correct. 23 Q The one with the 990 parts per million. You BAIN & ASSOCIATES 115 1 don't think Monsanto put that on there. Is that what 2 I'm hearing you say? 3A I'm convinced we did not that I'm aware of. 4 Q And the reason for that is why, sir? 5 A Because this property is located at the 6 highest elevation north of the plant. And after 7 talking with hydrologists and reviewing the drainage 8 patterns, there's no way water could have drained over DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] 9 portions of this property without flooding out the -- 10 several blocks surrounding it. 11 Q Your conclusion then is based on the old 12 adage that water flows downhill. Is that a fair way 13 to summarize it? 14 A And water really doesn't flow uphill, that's 15 correct. 16 Q Right, water flows downhill. So, PCB 17 contamination leaving Monsanto's plant would be 18 expected on property that flows down from Monsanto, 19 right? 20 A That would be in the drainage pattern of the 21 two ditches, the east ditch and the west ditch, that's 22 correct. 23 Q You would expect to find PCBs leaving BAIN & ASSOCIATES 116 1 Monsanto's plant in those areas, correct? 2A If you found PCBs-- 3Q You did find PCBs in those areas and you are 4 accepting responsibility for them in those areas. 5 You've already said that, right? 6 MR. COX: Pete, let him finish. Quit -- 7Q Isn't that what you said? 8 MR. COX: Just let him finish. If you ask 9 him a question, it's fair to let him finish. DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032858 10 A I guess I would have to go back to your 11 original question. I was just trying to respond 12 specifically to it and not to other issues or 13 questions that have been asked. 14 Q So, the only reason you believe that 15 Monsanto is not responsible for the PCB contamination 16 on Mr. Zanzig's property is because there was no way 17 absent a flood of biblical proportions for water to 18 leave Monsanto's property and come up to that level of 19 his property? 20 MR. COX: Object to the form. 21 Q Is that a fair statement? 22 A I don't know about a flood of biblical 23 proportions, but I don't believe that PCBs were BAIN & ASSOCIATES 117 1 contributed by the drainage patterns in that 2 particular neighborhood, either this property or 3 several other properties adjacent to it. 4Q Right. And that's very limited to the fact 5 -- your opinion that Monsanto is not responsible for 6 PCB contamination on these properties is your 7 conclusion that it could not have drained naturally 8 from Monsanto's property on to this property, right? 9A That's my opinion. 10 Q And no other reason why, correct? 11 A In this case and a couple of other cases, DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMONOQ32859 12 there are other factors. 13 Q Where I'm going to, Mr. Eley, is you don't 14 know whether or not during some part of the years when 15 Monsanto was manufacturing these PCBs that Monsanto 16 didn't dump some of its landfill on this property, do 17 you? 18 A No, I personally don't know that. 19 Q And you're not aware of anysource of PCB 20 contamination above this man's property, are you? 21 A Above this man's property? 22 Q Right. In other words -- 23 MR. COX: Are you talking upstream or are BAIN & ASSOCIATES 118 1 you talking -- 2Q Sure, upstream. 3A Upstream, no, I'm not. Upstream the 4 property, not above the property, but upstream the 5 property. 6Q Right. How far away is this property from 7 the plant? 8A Less than a quarter of a mile. 9 10 (Plaintiff s Exhibit Number 4 was marked for 11 identification.) 12 Q I'm going to mark Plaintiff s Exhibit 4 a DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032860 13 document entitled Cleaning Access Permission and 14 Cleaning Guidelines for 810 Montrose Avenue. Have you 15 ever seen those documents before today? 16 A Yes, I have. 17 Q Is that what Monsanto agreed to do as far as 18 cleaning up the neighbor's properties around the plant 19 that may have had PCB contamination on them? 20 A This was a part of our temporary relocation 21 and house cleaning. 22 Q Tell me what procedures in that second page 23 are designed to remove potential PCB contamination. BAIN & ASSOCIATES 119 1A Carpets will be vacuumed, hard surface 2 floors will be damp mopped, furniture will be removed 3 to vacuum or mop under it, doors and walls will be 4 damp wiped, pictures will be wiped; light fixtures, 5 ceiling fans and air conditioner vents will be damp 6 wiped; closet floors will be vacuumed, upholstery 7 furniture will be vacuumed, hard surfaces will be damp 8 wiped. 9Q It sounds to me -- 10 A Curtains, drapes, blinds and windows will be 11 vacuumed. Windowsills will be damp wiped. 12 Q It sounds to me like that's just what a 13 house cleaning service might do. Does that sound 14 about like to you what happens when somebody -- a maid DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032861 15 or someone comes in to clean house? 16 A I guess it would depend upon what kind of 17 equipment one uses. 18 Q Do you have a home, sir? 19 A Yes, Ido. 20 Q You testified earlier you're not married. 21 Do you do your own housework? 22 A Yes, I do. 23 Q Are these the very things you do in cleaning BAIN & ASSOCIATES 120 1 your house? 2A I do some of these, not all. I also use 3 different pieces or different types of equipment to 4 vacuum. 5Q Are you aware of any procedures -- let me 6 ask you this: Are these the same types of procedures 7 Monsanto follows if it has chemical spills in its own 8 plants? 9A I'm not really familiar with the spill 10 cleanup procedures at the individual plants. 11 Q Were the people who received this cleaning 12 service told by Monsanto that this was going to remove 13 any PCBs in their house to your knowledge? 14 A To my knowledge, I believe it may have been 15 indicated to residents that that would remove dirt DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032862 16 that might contain PCBs. 17 Q So, Monsanto is out there telling people 18 we're going to follow these guidelines and remove PCBs 19 from your house if they're in there, weren't y'all? 20 A What? Is that -- 21 Q That's a question. Y'all were out there 22 telling the people that lived around the plant that 23 when we come in here and perform these cleaning BAIN & ASSOCIATES 121 1 guidelines that are listed here as Plaintiffs Exhibit 2 4, we're going to remove PCBs from your house. 3A I don't recall anyone ever saying that. 4Q You certainly left with these people -- you 5 being Monsanto left with these people the impression 6 that after these cleaning guidelines were followed 7 they weren't going to have any PCB problems in their 8 home. Isn't that a fair statement? 9A No, I don't think so. 10 Q So you told them that despite all the 11 cleaning, whatever we're going to do with this 401 or 12 409 or Endust or however we cleaned it, it wasn't 13 going to have anything to do with whether or not the 14 property still had PCB contamination? Did you tell 15 them that? 16 A No, I don't believe we did. 17 Q Well, which one is it, sir? Didn't you want DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032863 18 them to be left with the impression after your little 19 cleaning team left that there were no more PCB 20 contamination problems on their property? 21 A No, I don't believe that was the intent. 22 Q You just felt like you wanted to clean these 23 people's houses out of the goodness of your own heart, BAIN & ASSOCIATES 122 1 you being Monsanto? Is that what you're telling me? 2 A No. 3Q You cleaned it because you thought PCBs were 4 in there from your plant? 5 A No. 6 Q Why did you clean their house? 7 A I believe that thecleaning referenced in 8 the -- in these documents I believe may have been a 9 part of the consent order or consent agreement with 10 the Alabama Department of Environmental Management. 11 Q You cleaned it because the government -- 12 A But I'm not sure of that. 13 Q Well, if you're not sure of it, then why are 14 you saying that that's your belief? 15 A I said I thought or it's my belief, but I'm 16 not positive. 17 Q So, if your belief is true, then what you're 18 really saying is the only reason Monsanto even did DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032864 19 this if you would call it remedial work, I certainly 20 would not, is because ADEM made you? 21 A The reason if that were the case and the 22 reason that we instituted this is because of our 23 agreement with the agency ADEM. BAIN & ASSOCIATES 123 1Q But you don't know that to be true or not. 2 You're just saying that's what you think? 3A I don't know that -- whether that in fact is 4 true. 5Q Just so we understand your position today, 6 sir, you are not disputing the fact that during the 7 course of Monsanto's manufacture of millions of pounds 8 of PCBs over the past 30 -- over a 35, 40-year period, 9 some of those PCBs escaped Monsanto's property, got 10 into the drainage systems around the property and 11 traveled downstream from those drainage systems? You 12 will agree with everything I just said, correct? 13 A I think you indicated in your question that 14 as a part of that that Monsanto discharged PCBs? 15 Q No. I said allowed it to escape. 16 A Allowed it to escape. 17 Q I was being gracious in my language because 18 I wanted you to agree with something. Okay? I did 19 that for a reason. Monsanto during that 35 to 40-year 20 period allowed PCBs to escape that found their way DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032865 21 into the drainage ditches leaving its property that 22 found their way into the downstream receiving streams, 23 right? BAIN & ASSOCIATES 124 1A I don't know that to be true. 2Q Have you ever heard of a document called 3 Environmental, Safety and Health Guidelines by 4 Monsanto? 5A Yes. 6Q When was the first time you ever saw such a 7 document? 8A The original document that was similar to 9 that -- I don't know whether it was called the same, 10 but it seemed like we had some worldwide guidelines in 11 perhaps the early '80s and then there were I think 12 several revisions. 13 Q I understand. Your initials are BW, 14 correct? 15 A Correct. 16 Q And what does that stand for? 17 A Bruce Wayne. 18 Q Bruce Wayne Eley.What does C2SB stand for 19 if that comes after your name? 20 A That would have been the mail zone that I 21 would have been -- that I would have had in C DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032866 22 building. 23 Q Is that where you are today? BAIN & ASSOCIATES 125 1 A No. 2Q When were you at C2SB? What time period? 3 A I was in C building from 1981 until about 4 1991. 1981 until 1991. While I was in C building, I 5 think I was in three or four different areas. 6Q When were you in 2SB? Is that like an 7 address? 8A That would be the second floor of the south 9 wing and I'm not sure when I was in the second floor 10 of the south wing of C building. 11 Q Just give me your best estimate. That's 12 like an address. Like if somebody said where do I 13 live, I can tell them, 3801 Buckingham. This is your 14 Monsanto address right here next to your name C2SB, 15 isn't it? 16 A If s not an address. If s a mail zone. 17 It's -- if you were to mail me a package, that would 18 be specific. Like if you're at your house, it would 19 be the specific room that you were in at your house. 20 Q Right. I understand. But there's 8,000 21 employees at this company. So, there aren't 8,000 22 rooms in my house. 23 A At that time, of course, it would have been DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032867 BAIN & ASSOCIATES 126 1 I believe Monsanto Company and we would have had on 2 the order of perhaps 40 some odd thousand. 3Q It's absolutely necessary for Monsanto to 4 know exactly where each person is to be able to get 5 information to them? 6A It would have been at that particular 7 address sometime in that ten-year period C2 south. I 8 don't really recall between that. 9 10 (Plaintiff s Exhibit Number 5 was marked for 11 identification.) 12 Q I have named -- I have labeled a document 13 entitled Environmental, Safety and Health Guidelines 14 as Plaintiffs Exhibit 5; is that correct? 15 A That's correct. 16 Q And on this document -- and we're going to 17 talk about it in a minute. I just want to set it up 18 so the record is clear -- your name B. W. Eley appears 19 on the first page after the title page, right? 20 A That's correct. 21 Q And that name is there as someone who 22 received a copy of this document, right? 23 A Correct. BAIN & ASSOCIATES DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032868 127 1Q And it's in alphabetical order and there's a 2 number C2SB out by your name? 3A That's correct. 4Q What I'm trying to do -- because there's not 5 a date on this document, on the top page or 6 anything -- is to determine about what period of time 7 it was you received this. And if you can tell me 8 where you were in the building at what period of time, 9 then that will give me a pretty good estimate of about 10 when this document was sent to you. Does that make 11 sense to you? 12 A Yes. I'm surprised there are not dates on 13 the documents. 14 Q There are dates within the document, but 15 there's not a date on when that document was made. 16 Well, there is a date. May 22nd, 1989. Does that 17 sound about right to you? 18 A That would have been within that time frame. 19 Q Who is Mr. H. J. Corbett? 20 A H. J. Corbett I believe at that time would 21 have been the vice president of environment, safety 22 and health and maybe manufacturing. 23 Q Why was he concerned with keeping a copy of BAIN & ASSOCIATES 128 DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032869 1 your environmental, safety and health guidelines 2 confidential to outside sources? 3A I don't know why. 4Q Do you recall receiving a copy of this 5 document and studying it, looking at it? 6 A I have received those documents. 7 Q And you know, sir, that a substantial amount 8 of work went into developing these Monsanto guidelines 9 for environmental, safety and health, don't you? 10 A I would expect there was different degrees 11 of the amount of work that went into those, yes. 12 Q But it was a substantial amount of work over 13 a period of years that went into developing these 14 guidelines, right? 15 A I don't know how long it took to develop 16 those guidelines. 17 Q The words contained in these guidelines have 18 meaning, correct? 19 A The words have meaning? 20 Q The words in these guidelines telling 21 environmental -- telling employees at Monsanto 22 worldwide what to do, how to react, how to respond to 23 certain issues and events have meaning, right? 1A 2Q BAIN & ASSOCIATES 129 Yes, they have meaning. And they're not just empty promises, are DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032870 3 they? These guidelines aren't just Monsanto's empty 4 promises about the environmental, safety and health, 5 are they? 6A Guidelines and promises? These aren't empty 7 promises? I don't -- 8Q These guidelines, sir, that tell Monsanto 9 employees -- dictate how to respond to environmental 10 issues are not just empty promises that Monsanto wants 11 to sell to the world, are they? Do you have a problem 12 answering that question? 13 A Well, I have a problem with empty promises. 14 I mean, I think this is a series of statements. These 15 are a series of we will do these types of things. I 16 guess where I have a little problem is those evolved 17 into a series of pledge statements and pledge 18 guidelines which I equate personally more with a 19 promise than a guideline. 20 Q There are statements contained within the 21 environmental, safety and health guidelines that sound 22 like promises to me. I've read them. You've read 23 them, too, haven't you? You've read this Plaintiffs BAIN & ASSOCIATES 130 1 Exhibit 5 in the past certainly? 2 A I read that -- parts of that document. 3 Q My only point is, sir, these things are DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032871 4 telling Monsanto employees how to act, how to respond, 5 what to do in certain events, right? That's what this 6 thing is all about, isn't it? 7A I would have to review all of those 8 documents, but generally, I think that's correct, yes. 9Q So the words contained in here aren't just 10 empty promises, aren't just -- we'll just put this 11 down and you can stick it on a shelf and not ever 12 follow it, right? 13 A That's correct. 14 Q And it's not just mere rhetoric in these 15 words? 16 A That's correct. 17 Q This is certainly not a public relations 18 ploy that Monsanto intended to pull over on the public 19 by enacting these guidelines, is it? 20 A No. 21 Q It's not something Monsanto did in an effort 22 to enhance its image with the Wall Street folks, is 23 it? BAIN & ASSOCIATES 131 1A Not that I'm aware of. 2Q Monsanto would certainly never confuse 3 environmental issues with profitability, would it? 4 A No. I think the issues are intertwined. 5 Q A more accurate way of saying what the DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032872 6 environmental, safety and health guidelines are is 7 standards that the company self-imposed, correct? 8A Some may be standards, others may not be 9 standards, but guidelines. 10 Q The words contained in the environmental, 11 safety and health guidelines manual are intended to 12 impose duties, responsibilities and obligations on the 13 employees at Monsanto in how they respond to 14 environmental, safety and health issues, right? Isn't 15 that right? 16 A Oh, is that a question? 17 Q Yes, sir. 18 A Excuse me. 19 Q Isn't that right? 20 A That's my understanding, that's correct. 21 Q Asa matter of fact, on the May 22nd, 1999 22 -- excuse me. 1989 letter by Mr. H. J. Corbett to the 23 distribution list, one of whom is you, he states in BAIN & ASSOCIATES 132 1 here that actions taken by all employees of Monsanto 2 should be consistent with the tone and direction of 3 this vision, doesn't he? 4 MR. COX: You're asking him if you just 5 accurately stated what's in Mr. Corbett's letter? 6 MR. GRAMMAS: Right. DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032873 7Q Isn't that what he says in there? 8A That's the statement that he makes, actions 9 taken by all employees of Monsanto should be 10 consistent with the tone and direction of this vision. 11 Q And then he says in here just above that, 12 while requirements vary across different units of the 13 corporation and worldwide guidelines require some 14 compromise to permit application to all operating 15 units, compliance with the spirit of the guidelines is 16 not optional. 17 A That's what that document says. 18 Q That means you've got to follow what's in 19 here, doesn't it? 20 A I think that means that you've got to follow 21 the spirit of what's in that document. 22 Q The spirit of this document is to make sure 23 that Monsanto's manufacturing operations do not BAIN & ASSOCIATES 133 1 adversely impact the environment and the health of 2 wildlife and human beings, right? 3A Today I'm not sure I know exactly what the 4 spirit of that document is. 5Q Well, we're going to talk about the Monsanto 6 pledge in a little bit. I'm sure you're familiar with 7 that, aren't you? 8A Yes, I have familiarity with the Monsanto DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032874 9 pledge. 10 Q That's something that the company is 11 extremely proud of, isn't it? 12 A At the time that I was with Monsanto, that's 13 correct. 14 Q It was touted on the Internet and it was 15 implemented by the chairman and CEO, Mr. Richard J. 16 Mahoney in January of 1990, isn't that about right? 17 A That's correct. I didn't know that it was 18 on the Internet, though. 19 Q One of the perspectives that -- tell me 20 again who Mr. Corbett was. 21 A Mr. Corbett I believe was the vice president 22 of environment, safety and health and perhaps 23 manufacturing. BAIN & ASSOCIATES 134 1Q He was a fairly bigwig within the company at 2 the time he -- 3 A That's correct. 4Q And he certainly had the authority to set 5 policies and perspectives and things like that that 6 are in this manual, did he not? 7 A Yes, he did. 8Q One of the things he said he wants Monsanto 9 to be is a company which as a matter of policy DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032875 10 separates the issues of "the right thing to do" from 11 the issues of cost or affordability. Isn't that what 12 he said to do? 13 MR. COX: Do you want to look at the -- do 14 you need to look at the-- 15 A I am familiar -- 16 Q And that's all I asked you to do is-- 17 MR. COX: Well, what I'm saying is if he 18 wants to look -- flip through some of the other 19 documents -- 20 MR. GRAMMAS: Well, we'll get to 21 that, believe me. 22 MR. COX: -- to familiarize himself with 23 them -- BAIN & ASSOCIATES 135 1Q That's one of the things -- 2A We were talking, I think, about a bullet 3 point that was under the vision and I guess what I was 4 looking at is just the opportunity to look at the 5 vision. 6Q We're going to look to that in a moment. 7 All I'm asking you, sir, right now is one of the 8 things Mr. Corbett said is he wants Monsanto to be a 9 company which as a matter of policy separates the 10 issue of the right the thing to do from the issue of 11 cost or affordability, right? DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032876 12 A That's correct. 13 Q That means if Monsanto is responsible for 14 some type of environmental problem or health and 15 safety problem, he wants this company as a matter of 16 policy to separate the problem as compared to how much 17 it costs, doesn't it? 18 A That is the way I would interpret that 19 statement, that's correct. 20 Q And that means he expects as a policy that 21 he implemented for this company to correct the 22 environmental problems it has caused regardless of how 23 much it may cost, right? BAIN & ASSOCIATES 136 1A I'm not -- 2 MR. COX: Object to the form. 3A -- so sure that I would interpret that to be 4 that far reaching. 5Q We just want to separate it to a point? 6A Well, I don't know that either. The only 7 thing I know is what I read. 8Q And you read this, didn't you? 9 A I just read that, correct. 10 Q You read it before. You read it in 1989. 11 A Yes, I am familiar with that vision. 12 Q This man told you -- Mr. Corbett told you DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032877 13 that following this was not optional on your part, 14 correct? That's what he told you, following these 15 guidelines is not optional. Isn't that the words he 16 used? 17 A I think he said the spirit of those 18 guidelines was not optional. 19 Q That's right. 20 A Yes. 21 Q That means if you as an individual disagreed 22 with them, too bad, follow them anyway. Isn't that 23 what he's telling you? BAIN & ASSOCIATES 137 1A The only thing that I can -- I don't know 2 whether he told me anything. I mean, that's the way I 3 interpret that statement. 4Q Do you recall reading this 1989 guideline, 5 sir, worldwide guideline number two? By the way, 6 worldwide, that means he expected this to be done 7 everywhere in the entire world, right? 8A That's correct. 9Q Every plant, every facility Monsanto had all 10 over the globe had to follow these guidelines, right? 11 A I believe that it said that they had to 12 follow the guidelines or the spirit of those 13 guidelines. 14 Q You keep saying that. In your mind, is DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032878 15 there a difference between following the guidelines 16 and the spirit of the guidelines? 17 A There may be. I only reference that because 18 that's what Mr. Corbett -- that's the way he 19 distinguished it in his cover letter. 20 Q So that gives Monsanto employees a little 21 wiggle room to not comply with what they're being told 22 to comply with and then when they get caught not doing 23 it, they can say well, we were complying with the BAIN & ASSOCIATES 138 1 spirit of them? Is that the reason that -- 2A I don't know what the reason was. 3Q Is that why you keep using that word 4 "spirit"? 5 A No. 6 Q Are you concerned that perhaps Monsanto 7 didn't follow all these guidelines down here at 8 Anniston? 9A No, that's not a concern of mine at all. 10 Q You think Monsanto followed them all, don't 11 you? Strike that. 12 Let me ask it this way: As the manager of 13 environmental affairs, you expected Monsanto employees 14 to follow these guidelines back in 1989, didn't you? 15 A At that particular point in time in 1989,1 DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032879 16 was not environmental manager. I was manager of 17 product labeling, safety and health. There were some 18 of those guidelines that I was more familiar with. 19 Q And some of these -- the bottom line, sir, 20 is the people at Anniston were required to follow 21 these environmental, safety and health guidelines just 22 like every other employee at Monsanto all over the 23 world, right? BAIN & ASSOCIATES 139 1A In the United States, that would be correct. 2Q Well, this says worldwide guidelines. It 3 doesn't say anything about the United States, does it? 4A That's correct, but I think that the letter 5 -- the cover letter where Mr. Corbett talks about we 6 will either follow these specific guidelines or the 7 spirit of those guidelines is meant to be relayed to 8 certain operations outside the United States where you 9 may have a particular plant in an ex-U. S. area that 10 following those guidelines would be in conflict with 11 local regulations. 12 Q That doesn't have anything to do with 13 Anniston, does it? 14 A No, but - 15 MR. COX: You asked him why he made the 16 distinction. 17 MR. GRAMMAS: I don't care. DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032880 18 Q But it doesn't have anything to do with 19 Anniston? 20 A Well, we talked about worldwide. 21 Q Okay. What you're saying is in some 22 countries the environmental regulations may be less 23 stringent than they are in the United States and if BAIN & ASSOCIATES 140 1 that's the case, don't worry about these guidelines, 2 follow the less stringent regulations? Is that what 3 you're saying? 4A No. It's my understanding that in certain 5 countries outside the United States the environmental 6 regulations may in fact conflict with those 7 guidelines. That being the case, then we could not in 8 good conscious tell a location to follow these 9 guidelines if in fact it did conflict with local 10 regulations. 11 Q The only way it's going to conflict is if 12 the guidelines are more stringent, right? 13 A I don't know. 14 Q Excuse me. If the regulations are more 15 stringent than the guidelines? 16 A No, I wouldn't think so. 17 Q If the local regulations are less stringent 18 than the guidelines and you follow the guidelines, how DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032881 19 is that in conflict with the regulations? 20 A I think that you could have certain 21 requirements or provisions within those guidelines in 22 front of you that conflicted with environment, safety 23 or health regulations in certain countries outside the BAIN & ASSOCIATES 141 1 United States. 2Q All right, whatever. In any event, however 3 you want to explain it, there's a document right here 4 that says worldwide guideline number two entitled 5 waste management, right? 6 Now, under paragraph two of this guideline 7 it says, "Landfill of acutely hazardous wastes and 8 incinerables will not be practiced." Did I read that 9 correctly? 10 A That's correct. 11 Q Now, you already testified, sir, that PCBs 12 are acutely hazardous materials. Do you recall that 13 testimony? 14 A That's correct. 15 Q Now, Mr. - 16 A They would be acutely hazardous in my view 17 under the OSHA hazardous communication standard. 18 Q Mr. Eley, how many pounds of PCBs are 19 landfilled in Anniston as we sit here today? 20 A I have no idea. DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032882 21 Q 22 A 23 Q But you know they're there, don't you? I personally do not know they're there. Sitting here today, you're not aware that BAIN & ASSOCIATES 142 1 Monsanto has covered PCBs with dirt at one of its 2 locations on the plant site? 3A I have been told and I'm under the 4 understanding that there are PCB wastes in the 5 landfills. I personally have no knowledge of any 6 PCB-containing wastes in those landfills. 7Q The worldwide guideline says that Monsanto 8 is not to practice landfilling acutely hazardous 9 materials, doesn't it? Didn't I read that right? 10 A I believe that's what it states in there. 11 Q It also says here, sir -- and you are 12 aware -- just so we're clear, you are aware that 13 Monsanto has landfilled PCBs in Anniston, right? 14 A As I understand, we have PCB wastes that are 15 landfilled in Anniston. 16 Q The next thing it says is fixation of 17 particularly mobile persistent or bioaccumulative 18 waste will be accomplished whenever warranted and 19 feasible or where required by regulation. Did I read 20 that correctly? 21 A That's correct. DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032883 22 Q Now, you've already testified earlier today 23 that PCBs are mobile, they are persistent and they are BAIN & ASSOCIATES 143 1 bioaccumulative, correct? 2A Incorrect. I don't believe that I stated 3 that they were mobile. In fact, I suggested I did not 4 consider them to be mobile, but I did indicate that I 5 did think they were persistent and they 6 bioaccumulated. 7Q You don't recall that testimony we went 8 through about PCBs sticking to dirt, dirt getting into 9 water, dirt moving and under that definition you said 10 they were mobile? Did you forget that? 11 A I think we were talking about movable versus 12 mobile, but then I clarified that in my terminology I 13 still didn't consider them mobile. But if, in fact, 14 we're talking about PCBs adhering very tightly to 15 sediment in a ditch system and then the water carrying 16 that and moving those and if one wants to consider 17 that to be mobile, then I would say yes. 18 Q Okay. But even with that qualification, you 19 have no qualms with admitting that PCBs are persistent 20 and bioaccumulate? 21 A It's my understanding that would be true. 22 Q Bioaccumulation means that it gets -- PCBs 23 begin to accumulate in biological organisms, right? DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032884 BAIN & ASSOCIATES 144 1 A Correct. 2 Q And because they're persistent, that means 3 that even though you eat a small amount each day over 4 time, the amount continues to grow and grow and grow 5 because they don't leave the biological system, right? 6A Well, I think it could better be said that 7 because they don't metabolize in that particular 8 biological system. When I spoke of persistence -- we 9 can talk about it like that, but I really meant 10 persistence from the standpoint of natural breakdown 11 in the environment. 12 Q Okay. That's fair enough. When a fish eats 13 PCBs, it isn't going anywhere. It's going to 14 accumulate. And the more PCBs that they eat, the 15 higher levels of PCB detection you expect to find in 16 the fish, right? 17 A I'm certainly not an expert in that area, 18 but that's my understanding. 19 Q And the same is true for the human beings 20 who are eating the fish? 21 A I think the metabolism is different. 22 Biologically you're talking about a difference. 23 Q But PCBs bioaccumulate in human beings? BAIN & ASSOCIATES DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032885 145 1A It's my understanding they bioaccumulate, 2 but perhaps there is a difference. 3Q Monsanto's worldwide guideline on waste 4 management says that we have to fixate these 5 chemicals. And I looked in the dictionary about 6 fixation and it said to fix it. That's what it 7 means. So, when Monsanto's guidelines tell you that 8 fixation of mobile, persistent or bioaccumulative 9 wastes will be accomplished whenever warranted, that 10 tells me that when Monsanto knows that it's 11 responsible for dumping PCBs in this environment, they 12 need to go out there and clean it up. Is that your 13 understanding of that statement? 14 A No. 15 Q What's your understanding of it? 16 A Could I see the statement again? 17 Q Sure. 18 A I guess several issues. We started out or 19 you started out with the question of talking about 20 acutely hazardous. 21 Q No. I'm talking about fixation. 22 MR. COX: Well, just let him finish. 23 A I'm just trying to -- BAIN & ASSOCIATES 146 DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032886 1Q That question about acutely 2 hazardous doesn't have anything to do with what I 3 asked you. You've answered it. I was content with 4 your answer. If your lawyer wants to talk to you 5 about it, that's fine. 6A I answered acutely hazardous, but not in the 7 context of waste regulations. 8 MR. GRAMMAS: Strike that from the record. 9 If you want to ask him questions about it, you're more 10 than welcome to ask him. 11 MR. LOWE: We object to being nonresponsive 12 to the question. 13 MR. GRAMMAS: I adopt his objection. 14 Q (By Mr. Grammas) My point is, sir, I want 15 to ask you questions. And if you feel like you need 16 to explain something, feel free to talk to your lawyer 17 about it. 18 MR. COX: If you need to explain something 19 to Mr. Grammas, you can explain something to Mr. 20 Grammas. 21 Q I'm not asking you anything about acutely 22 hazardous right now. 23 MR. COX: You're asking him about one of the BAIN & ASSOCIATES 147 1 guidelines? 2Q I'm asking you, starting with the word DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032887 3 "fixation" of particularly mobile, persistent or 4 bioaccumulative wastes will be accomplished, that's a 5 guideline that Monsanto imposed upon itself, right? I 6 mean, did I read it right? 7A That -- you've read it correctly. 8Q And that's a guideline -- those are the 9 words Monsanto put down there, not me, isn't that 10 right? 11 A Correct. 12 Q So Monsanto is telling you to fix it. If 13 you put PCBs in a river, fix it. I mean, these words 14 aren't stated in a vacuum, are they? That's a 15 question. Are these words written in a vacuum? 16 A No. 17 Q They mean something, don't they? 18 A Yes. Like all words, they mean something. 19 Q And what other chemical are you aware of 20 sitting here today that is more bioaccumulative that 21 Monsanto manufactured than PCB s? 22 A I'm not aware of all the chemicals that 23 Monsanto has manufactured and the relative BAIN & ASSOCIATES 148 1 bioaccumulative properties of those chemicals. 2Q I understand that. Monsanto has made 3 thousands and thousands of chemicals over the years. DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032888 4 That would be an unfair question for me to ask of you. 5 What I asked of you is sitting here today, 6 sir, what chemicals are you aware of that are more 7 bioaccumulative than PCBs that Monsanto manufactured 8 over the course of its history? And if you're not 9 aware of any, that would be a fine answer. 10 A I'm not aware of any. 11 Q Okay. So, one could argue that this 12 particular guideline was written almost verbatim for 13 PCBs? 14 MR. COX: Object to the form. 15 Q If s certainly a bioaccumulative 16 chemical, right? 17 A PCBs to my understanding do bioaccumulate. 18 Q Monsanto says when we are responsible for 19 putting in a chemical that bioaccumulates, fixation is 20 the remedy, fixation means to fix, I looked it up. 21 That means take it out of the system, doesn't it? 22 MR. COX: Object to the form. 23 A I would have to get the dictionary and look BAIN & ASSOCIATES 149 1 at the definition of fixation. 2 MR. LOWE: Well, let's get it. Let's 3 take a break. 4 (A break was taken.) 5Q (By Mr. Grammas) All right. We have in my DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032889 6 hands a Random House Dictionary and I have for your 7 convenience turned to page 340 of the dictionary and I 8 will draw your attention to the word "fixation". 9 Could you read the first definition out loud, please, 10 sir? 11 A The act of fixing or state of being fixed. 12 Q Okay. Fixation means to fix, right? 13 A To fix. So, perhaps what we need to do then 14 is discuss the word "fix". Because I also read on the 15 same page, 340, the definition of fix is to make firm, 16 stable or stationary. That is the way that I 17 interpret fix and that's the way that I interpret 18 fixation is the process of doing that. 19 Q So, when you're reading this that PCBs are 20 getting into the environment and bioaccumulating, 21 you're saying you want to stabilize that, you want to 22 make sure that they continue to get into the 23 environment and bioaccumulate. Is that what you're BAIN & ASSOCIATES 150 1 saying? 2 MR. COX: Object to the form. 3Q I'll take that definition if that's what you 4 mean. I don't think it is. 5A The way that I -- well, I'm not quite sure 6 exactly what Mr. Corbett had in mind when he wrote DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032890 7 this or whoever did write this. 8Q When you take your car -- when you get a 9 flat tire, you fix your flat tire, don't you? I mean, 10 we're going to talk about the word "fix" now. It 11 means to repair in that context if you have a flat 12 tire and you fix it. 13 A To repair it in that context, yes. 14 Q Now, when you've got an environmental 15 problem like a persistent chemical, one that's flowing 16 within an environmental system like bodies of water 17 and one known to bioaccumulate, if you factor all 18 those things in, those three things have meaning, 19 sir. What's happening, correct me if I'm wrong, is 20 that they're moving around the system, that they're 21 staying there a long time and that they're finding 22 their way into the food chain. That's what PCBs do in 23 the water environment, don't they? BAIN & ASSOCIATES 151 1A PCBs in a water environment would be 2 available either in -- to some extent in the water, 3 but more so in the sediment and as a part of the 4 sediment, it would be available for aquatic life and 5 then bioaccumulate. 6Q Everything I said was true. PCBs in the 7 water system adhere to the sediment, move around as 8 sediment moves around because they're stuck to it, DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032891 9 stays in the environment a long time because they're 10 persistent and bioaccumulates in the food chain, 11 right? We've already talked about all that. That's 12 an easy one. You can say right on that and we can go 13 to the next one. 14 A That's correct. 15 Q Okay. So, when you've got all those factors 16 happening and the guy -- whoever wrote this as a 17 worldwide guideline here for waste management says the 18 way to resolve this problem is fixation, tell me if 19 I'm reading it wrong, sir. To me it means fix it, 20 repair it, resolve it. Am I reading it wrong? 21 A Yes. 22 Q And the only way to fix a persistent 23 chemical that doesn't break down naturally in the BAIN & ASSOCIATES 152 1 environment is to remove it from that system, right? 2A Incorrect. 3 Q Okay. Tell me the ways to do it. 4 A Well, I'm certainly not an expert on 5 remediation or remediation technology. 6Q Well, let's stop right there then. If 7 that's true, sir, why did you tell me I was wrong? 8 And then once you've committed to the fact that my 9 question is wrong, when I ask you why, you basically DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032892 10 say I don't have the expertise to tell you why it's 11 wrong. 12 MR. COX: No, he is qualifying his answer if 13 you'll let him finish his answer. 14 A I'm just giving you my opinion. 15 Q Which isn't based on fact or experience or 16 knowledge; is that correct? 17 A Right. I think that I have adequately 18 attested to that many times today. 19 Q So really then to cut all this line of 20 questioning short is when it says fixation, you don't 21 know if that means to suck it out of the river or not 22 because you don't have any experience with PCBs? 23 A No. My interpretation of fixation and the BAIN & ASSOCIATES 153 1 way I would look at that is I would go back to reading 2 a definition of fixed which, as I said, is to make 3 firm, stable or stationary. 4 There's also another definition of fix in 5 this dictionary and that is to repair or mend. Those 6 two are not synonymous in my view. 7Q Well, I agree. 8A You just discussed fixing your car or 9 repairing it. 10 Q Uh-huh. How are you going to make this 11 firm, stable or -- what was the other word? DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032893 12 MR. COX: Stationary. 13 Q How are you going to make PCBs out here in 14 Logan Martin and Choccolocco Creek and Snow Creek 15 firm, stable and stationary? 16 A That's not within my expertise or 17 discipline. 18 Q Would it be easier to make them firm, stable 19 or stationary or to suck them out of the system with a 20 dredging machine and get rid of them? 21 A I don't know. 22 Q In any event, regardless of the definition, 23 you'll agree that in your guidelines, in Monsanto's BAIN & ASSOCIATES 154 1 guidelines you're supposed to do one of those two 2 things when PCBs are in our water system, right? 3A What two things? 4Q Well, the two definitions you chose to focus 5 on on fixed, either to stabilize them, make them firm 6 or whatever or alternatively to repair it? The two 7 definitions you gave me. 8A And I think it's the former definition that 9 that particular statement applies to when it talks 10 about fixation of persistent and whatever type of 11 compounds. 12 Q And what facts, experience, courses, DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032894 13 training, education do you have to draw that 14 conclusion? 15 A In terms of the interpretation of that word 16 "fixation"? 17 Q Yeah. 18 A I guess just my experience and education in 19 environmental engineering. 20 Q Okay. But you don't have any experience, 21 education, blah, blah, blah with PCBs other than this 22 one project here in Anniston? 23 A That's correct. BAIN & ASSOCIATES 155 1Q Now, I left during the break and I went to 2 go get a dictionary which occupied some of our 3 discussion. While I was gone, did you have an 4 opportunity to look at some of the tabs that I have 5 put on this document, Plaintiffs Exhibit Number 5? 6 A Did I have the opportunity? 7 Q Yeah. 8A I guess I had the opportunity, but I did not 9 take -- I did not look at any tabs. 10 Q So, the first questions you're going to 11 have -- the first -- when I point now to this section 12 of the same -- I guess it's page two of the waste 13 management number two worldwide guideline on this 14 document, section four entitled Corrective and DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032895 15 Remedial Action, have you read this section? Did you 16 read this section while I was gone at the break? 17 A No. 18 Q But you've read it before because you 19 received a copy of this document? 20 A I'm not sure I've read it before. 21 Q What's ground water? 22 A Ground water is water that would be or be 23 contained in the subsurface of the earth's crust. BAIN & ASSOCIATES 156 1 Q That's not water that travels on the ground? 2 A No. That would be subsurface water. 3Q What do you call the water that leaves 4 Monsanto's plant, gets into a ditch and then flows 5 into Snow Creek and then into Choccolocco Creek and 6 then into Lake Logan Martin? What do you call that -- 7 A Storm water or storm water runoff. 8 Q What's Monsanto's policies, procedures 9 regarding cleaning up PCB contaminated sites that it 10 is responsible for contaminating, if there is such a 11 policy? 12 A I have not seen, nor I am aware of any 13 policy on the part of Solutia, Inc. 14 MR. COX: Can we take a break? I'm sorry. 15 (A break was taken.) DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032896 16 Q Isn't it true, sir, that a policy Monsanto 17 has or had at least in 1989 was that at sites where it 18 felt it was the maj or contributor, it would seek a 19 leadership role it says when appropriate -- and we'll 20 talk about that -- to facilitate resolution? Did I 21 read that correctly? 22 A Yes. That's exactly what is states there. 23 Q Now, again, these words have meaning, don't BAIN & ASSOCIATES 157 1 they? 2 A Yes. 3Q They aren't j ust written there j ust for the 4 sake of somebody to spend some time during an office 5 day to fill up some hours, are they? 6 A That's my understanding, that's correct. 7Q Now, Monsanto at the Anniston plant for 8 close to 40 years manufactured millions of pounds, if 9 not more, of PCBs, right? 10 A I believe I said that I thought it was 11 probably in the order of millions of pounds or more, 12 correct. 13 Q Isn't it fair to say then, sir, at the 14 Anniston site Monsanto is a major contributor of PCB 15 contamination issues both on site and off site in that 16 area? 17 MR. COX: Object to the form. DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032897 18 A On site I think I would agree with you. Off 19 site I haven't got -- I don't know. I haven't got all 20 that information. 21 Q You mean you don't know what other potential 22 sources there are out there? 23 A Correct. BAIN & ASSOCIATES 158 1Q But whatever those sources are, they got the 2 PCBs from Monsanto assuming they even exist? 3 A Not necessarily. 4 Q Here in the United States? 5 A They may have imported them. 6 Q For the sources to -- these other sources 7 that you think may exist -- now, for the record, you 8 haven't identified a single source that's contributed 9 to this problem other than Monsanto, have you? 10 A That's correct. 11 Q And you're talking -- when you say there may 12 be others, you're not saying you know of any. You're 13 just saying you don't know that there aren't any? 14 A That's correct. 15 Q For them to be a contributor of this problem 16 equal to or greater than Monsanto, they would need to 17 use millions of pounds of PCBs in their operations 18 around this area. Would you not agree with that? DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032898 19 A Not necessarily, no. 20 Q Tell me how come not. 21 A Well, again, this would just be a 22 theoretical issue. 23 Q Sure. BAIN & ASSOCIATES 159 1A If I'm a user of a PCB formulation -- for 2 example, if I were going to import in Decachlor -- 3 which I know there was a lot of importation I believe 4 in the United States of Decachlor for the use in 5 investment casting, for example. Then if I were a 6 significant user, certainly not millions of pounds per 7 year or whatever, but if I had a substantial quantity 8 on site and then something happened where I lost a 9 substantial amount of material in a number of 10 different drums, then it's conceivable in my mind that 11 under that scenario you could have a significant 12 contribution of PCBs into a water body. 13 Q Even compared to a company that for 40 years 14 was manufacturing millions of pounds and sewering 15 thousands and thousands and thousands of pounds of 16 this every year into this system? You would think in 17 that scenario you gave they could compare to the 18 contribution of Monsanto? 19 A I don't know whether they could compare or 20 not. It seems like to me it's kind of an apples and DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032899 21 oranges situation. 22 Q It does to me too. 23 A But I just don't -- that's why I say I don't BAIN & ASSOCIATES 160 1 have all the information, all the data to really say 2 definitively one way or the other. 3Q Fair enough. Assume for me, if you will, 4 that Monsanto was the major contributor here. You 5 would not disagree with me under your own self-imposed 6 rules that in that situation you would have to take a 7 leadership role in remedying the problem? 8 MR. COX: Object to the form. 9 MR. GRAMMAS: Note for the record that Buddy 10 has directed him to a portion of the document. 11 MR. COX: No. I'm just directing him to 12 look at the whole section that you're pointing at 13 instead ofjust the one sentence you're taking out of 14 context. 15 MR. GRAMMAS: I'm not taking anything out of 16 context. 17 MR. COX: Note my objection. 18 A And we had a -- and you say we had a 19 hypothetical that we were a maj or contributor? 20 Q Right. Just assume that the jury finds that 21 Monsanto's manufacture of these millions of pounds of DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032900 22 PCBs right there in the middle of Anniston and 23 Monsanto's release of no telling how many thousands BAIN & ASSOCIATES 161 1 and thousands of pounds of PCBs into this system made 2 Monsanto a major contributor. Just assume that to be 3 true. I'm not saying it is in your mind. I'm saying 4 just assume it to be true. 5A Uh-huh. 6Q If that were true, under Monsanto's very own 7 self-imposed guidelines, it would need to take a 8 leadership role to resolve that problem? 9 MR. COX: Same objection. 10 Q Correct? 11 A That's correct. 12 Q Okay. Now, that means that Monsanto has an 13 obligation to determine if it's a maj or contributor, 14 doesn't it? Again, these words aren't written in a 15 vacuum. That says hey, if there's some problems 16 around our plant, we need to find out if we are a 17 major contributor, doesn't it? 18 MR. COX: Same objection. 19 A I don't see that here. 20 MR. COX: Excuse me. 21 (A break was taken.) 22 Q If Monsanto requires itself to take a 23 leadership role in fixing an issue that it is DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032901 BAIN & ASSOCIATES 162 1 determined to be a major contributor, Mr. Eley, 2 doesn't that necessarily mean that before they can 3 even do that Monsanto needs to find out if it is a 4 major contributor? 5 MR. COX: Object to the form. 6A One would seem to precede the other one, but 7 this right here does not speak in my view to the issue 8 of determining to what extent you are a contributor. 9Q Right. Monsanto got these guidelines up in 10 place because it wanted the world to know that it was 11 an environmentally conscientious company, right, among 12 other reasons? 13 MR. COX: Excuse me. 14 (A break was taken.) 15 MR. GRAMMAS: Can you read back the last 16 question? 17 MR. COX: And I again apologize. My phone 18 is now off and we will have no further interruptions. 19 (Record read.) 20 A I think at that particular point in time in 21 1989 the environmental stewardship of Monsanto was 22 well established. 23 Q Part of the stewardship was this document, BAIN & ASSOCIATES DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032902 163 1 wasn't it? 2A Yes. When I speak of environmental 3 stewardship, it's in a broad sense covering both -- or 4 covering environment, safety and health. And I think 5 that we may have published some guidelines even prior 6 to this. And so I think again in my view our 7 stewardship and practices were well established and I 8 don't know whether that was, in fact, an overriding 9 factor for -- to let the world know or for publicity 10 or whatever that these particular documents were 11 developed. 12 Q Was Monsanto just going to sit around and 13 wait for somebody to tell them that they're a major 14 contributor before they "take a leadership role"? 15 A I don't know. 16 Q That seems inconsistent with being a leader, 17 doesn't it? 18 A No opinion on that. 19 Q When you're a leader on something, that 20 means to take the forefront, to be the driving force, 21 doesn't it? 22 A That would be one characteristic of 23 leadership, yes. BAIN & ASSOCIATES 164 DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032903 1Q To "do the right thing" as Mr. Corbett said 2 earlier in this guideline, right? 3A You would expect your leaders to do the 4 right thing, correct. 5Q And doing the right thing, Mr. Eley, in a 6 situation that Monsanto faces in Anniston regarding 7 PCBs is to find out exactly how much they contributed 8 -- it contributed to the PCB problem compared to any 9 other potential people, right? 10 A When, in 1989? 11 Q Right. 12 A I don't know because I'm not -- prior to 13 1996, I'm not really knowledgeable of the PCB 14 situation at the Anniston plant. 15 Q Here it is 1998 and you're being sworn under 16 oath to give a deposition about PCB remediation in 17 Anniston and you cannot identify one other source of 18 PCB contamination in the Anniston area, can you? 19 A I have not so far. 20 Q Now, certainly to be a leader Monsanto 21 before now should have already done that, shouldn't it 22 have? 23 MR. COX: Object to the form. 1Q 2A BAIN & ASSOCIATES 165 In your opinion? Should have done what? DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032904 3Q Should have determined if they are in fact 4 the major contributor so that they can go out and 5 fixate it as their other regulations require. 6A I believe -- 7 MR. COX: Same objection. 8A Are we talking specifically about -- under 9 this guideline? 10 Q Sure. 11 A I guess my interpretation is knowing the 12 history of the Anniston location and the PCB issues, 13 that the way I interpret and define the word 14 "fixation," that's something that was practiced there 15 at that plant well before 1989. 16 Q What does all that mean? Monsanto is not 17 going to do anything about it? Because to date, 18 Monsanto hasn't done a single thing to remediate 19 Choccolocco Creek and Lake Logan Martin, true? 20 A I don't know. 21 Q Well, are you aware of any dredging that 22 Monsanto has performed in these areas to remove PCB 23 from the sediment? BAIN & ASSOCIATES 166 1A No, I'm not aware of any dredging. 2 MR. COX: That Monsanto has done? 3A That Monsanto has done or I'm not DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032905 4 specifically aware of any dredging that other people 5 have done. 6Q Monsanto according to this document required 7 itself and imposed upon itself -- Monsanto imposed an 8 obligation upon itself to take a lessened legalistic 9 approach to site cleanup negotiations; is that right? 10 A I don't know. 11 Q Did I read that right? 12 A That sentence reads, "We intend a lessened 13 legalistic approach to site cleanup negotiations." 14 Q Right. Isn't that what I said? 15 A I believe that's what you said, yes. 16 Q It says, "Where Monsanto's responsibility is 17 fairly established, we will not delay cleanup 18 unnecessarily by legal, yet negatively perceived 19 litigious steps," doesn't it? 20 A That's what that document states. 21 Q Now, Mr. Eley, that means in spite of the 22 fact that Monsanto can go through all sorts of legal 23 proceedings with the federal government, with the BAIN & ASSOCIATES 167 1 Alabama Department of Environmental Regulations, with 2 the Alabama Department of Public Health, with the 3 plaintiffs who are now suing them and with the 4 hundreds of plaintiffs who have sued them in the past 5 over these issues, in spite of all that Monsanto is DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032906 6 supposed to fix the problems that it has caused in 7 this river system, right, and to not delay the 8 fixation by engaging in protracted litigation? Isn't 9 that what that says? 10 MR. COX: Object to the form. 11 A No, that's not what this says. 12 Q It doesn't say that? 13 A No. 14 Q Okay. We'll let the jury determine what 15 that says. Now, you testified earlier, sir, that it 16 is fairly established -- and you used those words and 17 I made sure you used those words -- that Monsanto was 18 responsible for the PCB contamination on the 19 neighboring property. Do you recall that testimony? 20 A I believe so, and there were certain 21 properties where I think we -- or I agreed with that, 22 other properties which I did not. 23 Q Okay. And in your deposition you gave in BAIN & ASSOCIATES 168 1 July of this year, sir, you were asked why Monsanto 2 bought the property it did and your answer was to 3 control PCB movement downstream. Do you recall that? 4A I believe I stated to control, minimize or 5 contain the possibility of PCB release off site. 6Q Right, off site. In other words, you bought DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032907 7 PCB contaminated property so you can now -- so 8 Monsanto can now take the position that that property 9 belongs to it and it will do with the PCBs what it 10 wishes to do, right? 11 A No, absolutely not. 12 Q Let me ask you this: Have y'all removed the 13 sediment on this property? 14 A Which property? 15 Q On the property you bought. 16 MR. COX: And the reason he is -- I'm sorry 17 to interject. The reason he's having trouble is that 18 there are different properties in different areas that 19 he bought -- that Monsanto bought, not Bruce, and 20 Solutia now owns and there have been different 21 remediations on the different properties. So, you're 22 painting with a little too broad of a brush, Pete. 23 I'm sorry. BAIN & ASSOCIATES 169 1Q In any piece of property that y'all bought 2 as a result of the remediation efforts relating to 3 PCBs at the Monsanto plant, have y'all removed any 4 dirt? 5 A Yes, I believe so. 6 Q Did you take that dirt to Emelle? 7 A Not that I'm aware of. 8 Q Are you aware, sir, that in samples that DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032908 9 exceed 50 parts per million that the PCBs must be 10 taken to a hazardous waste landfill? 11 A That's my understanding, yes. 12 Q Well, I showed you a document that was 990 13 parts per million. Did y'all remove any of the dirt 14 on that piece of property? 15 A No. 16 Q If s still there? 17 A If s still there. 18 Q PCBs are still there? 19 A That's correct. 20 Q Do you believe, sir, that Monsanto has 21 delayed cleanup by unnecessary legal action on this 22 particular site? 23 A Do I believe that? BAIN & ASSOCIATES 170 1Q Yeah. 2 A Certainly not. 3Q Now, Monsanto knew that it manufactured PCBs 4 and that those PCBs were getting in the environment 5 since the '50s, right? 6 A I don't know. 7Q Tell me, sir, when it is you believe 8 Monsanto first learned, the first time ever that PCBs 9 it manufactured at its Anniston plant escaped its DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032909 10 property and got into neighboring property. 11 A I have no idea. 12 Q Well, has it been more than ten years? 13 A I have no idea. 14 Q It was before you got involved in this deal, 15 wasn't it? 16 A Yes, I believe so. 17 Q And you got involved in 1995, right? 18 A My active involvement started in -- I 19 believe it was March 1996. 20 Q Well, what remediation action has Monsanto 21 taken to clean up Choccolocco Creek and Lake Logan 22 Martin? 23 A I'm not familiar with the remediation BAIN & ASSOCIATES 171 1 projects either on Choccolocco or Snow Creek. 2 MR. COX: He said Logan Martin. 3 A Logan Martin. Excuse me. 4Q Are you aware, sir, that there are fish 5 advisories posted on these bodies of water? 6A I have a general knowledge that there are 7 fish advisories. 8Q And do you know what the fish advisories 9 tell people? 10 A No. 11 Q Would it shock you to know that the fish DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032910 12 advisories tell people to not eat the fish contained 13 in these bodies of water because the fish contain 14 levels of PCB in excess of EPA regulations? 15 A No. I think that -- 16 MR. COX: Object to the form. That's not 17 what he said. 18 A I think that's -- well, am I surprised? Is 19 that the question? 20 Q Shocked was the word. Surprised is -- 21 A Oh, shocked that thewording would say that? 22 Q Yes. 23 A No, not in the least. That's, I believe, BAIN & ASSOCIATES 172 1 typical of a fish advisory. 2Q Right. And it's warning people not to eat 3 fish that have two parts per million or more of PCBs 4 in them, right? 5A I don't know if that's what the fish 6 advisory says. 7Q The fish advisory is saying don't eat any 8 fish at all out of this creek and out of this lake. 9 Are you aware of that? 10 A No, I don't know what the fish advisory 11 specifically states. 12 Q Do you believe that Monsanto is responsible DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032911 13 for that fish advisory being in place? 14 A Not that I'm aware of we're not responsible. 15 Q You don't think you are, do you? 16 A No. 17 Q Why? 18 A The fish advisory pertains to you say Lake 19 Logan Martin? 20 Q Choccolocco Creek, Lake Logan Martin. 21 A Different fish advisories or the same fish 22 advisory? 23 Q It's changed over the years. It's BAIN & ASSOCIATES 173 1 progressively gotten more restrictive. At one point 2 in time it's my understanding -- 3 MR. GRAMMAS: And, Buddy, if I state this 4 wrong, correct me. 5Q -- it warned against pregnant women eating 6 fish. At another point in time it warned against 7 eating a certain amount of fish at certain locations, 8 species of fish. Now it just says don't eat the fish 9 in Choccolocco Creek and in a large part of Lake Logan 10 Martin because of PCB contamination. 11 A Uh-huh. 12 Q That's what it says. 13 A Okay. 14 Q Now, you're saying -- DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032912 15 MR. COX: More or less. 16 Q More or less. I don't know the exact words, 17 but that's in essence what it says. You're saying 18 Monsanto is not at least in part responsible for that 19 fish advisory being placed up there in this area 20 immediately below their plant? 21 A Are you asking for my opinion? 22 Q Right. 23 A Yeah. My opinion is I haven't got BAIN & ASSOCIATES 174 1 sufficient information to know all the contributors 2 and possible contributors of PCB in these particular 3 areas. 4 Q I understand that. But you know -- 5 A And to me -- 6 MR. COX: Wait. Let him finish. 7 Q I'm sorry. 8A And to me proximity is irrelevant because -- 9 Q Why is that? 10 A -- we're talking proximity of manufacture 11 when actually there's a lot of other sources that 12 conceivably could be along both those stretches of 13 water that entail use. 14 Q But you haven't been able to identify any. 15 A But I have not been out looking for use. My DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032913 16 involvement in this particular project I think was 17 summarized earlier which included a number of 18 different aspects of the proj ect. 19 Q I understand that, sir. 20 A None of that responsibility dealt with me 21 personally going out to determine other sources or 22 possible contributors of PCB. 23 Q I understand that. So, why do you keep BAIN & ASSOCIATES 175 1 saying there may be others out there when you have no 2 basis in fact to make that statement? 3A Because PCBs were used as general, 4 commercial and industrial chemicals from the 1920s 5 until the 1970s. I think we stated earlier that 6 perhaps millions of pounds of PCBs were manufactured. 7 Those PCBs would in turn have been used in a number of 8 different applications including electrical 9 transformers, capacitors, plasticizers, heat transfer 10 fluids, hydraulic fluids, carbonless copy paper. 11 I know that in the Anniston area there is or 12 has been a fairly good sized industrial base. I don't 13 know the experience of all the industry in the 14 Anniston area, nor do I know the experience of the 15 industry up and along the Coosa River. 16 Q Right. So, since you don't know, it's just 17 as likely, sir, that there are no other sources of PCB DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032914 18 contamination in this system? 19 MR. COX: Object to the form. 20 Q I'm not saying that's a fact. I'm just 21 saying based on what you know, it's just as likely 22 that there aren't any? 23 A No. I would say it's possible. I wouldn't BAIN & ASSOCIATES 176 1 put it in the domain of likelihood. 2Q Okay. Worldwide guideline number six to 3 Plaintiffs Exhibit 5 -- 4 MR. COX: Pete, I don't mean to interrupt 5 you, but is that a complete copy of that package as 6 far as you know? 7 MR. GRAMMAS: As far as I know, it is. I 8 mean, I have no idea. It's what y'all gave us and I 9 haven't -- 10 MR. COX: It's all been produced in bulk, 11 so -- 12 MR. GRAMMAS: I assume it is, Buddy. 13 There's all kind of crap jammed in it all over the 14 place, but I don't know for sure if it is or isn't. 15 Q Okay. World guideline number six, product 16 stewardship. It says here that Monsanto products will 17 not present an unreasonable risk of harm to human life 18 or health or to the environment when they are properly DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032915 19 handled, transported, used or disposed. Did I read 20 that correctly? 21 A That's correct. 22 Q And then it says right after that sentence, 23 "Stakeholders will be provided information regarding BAIN & ASSOCIATES 177 1 handling, storage, use and disposal of Monsanto 2 products." 3A That's correct. 4Q Did I read that correctly? 5A That's correct. 6Q Now, under the introduction, sir, a 7 stakeholder is defined to include customers, employees 8 and the community at large around the plants, right? 9A That's true. And specifically that reads, 10 "Employees, customers and the community are all 11 important stakeholders that are directly affected by 12 Monsanto's product stewardship programs." 13 Q And when I said community around the plant, 14 I was trying to be fair to Monsanto. Does Monsanto 15 take the position in this worldwide guideline number 16 six regarding product stewardship that the community 17 is the entire United States? 18 A I don't know how the word "community" is 19 defined or what the scope or breadth of it would be. 20 Q But it would certainly include the folks DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032916 21 around the Anni ston piant? 22 A Yes, it would. 23 Q And it would include the class members that BAIN & ASSOCIATES 178 1 I represent in this lawsuit, wouldn't it? 2 A I don't know if that would be true or not. 3 Q You think they're too far away to be part of 4 the community? 5A Again, that would be my interpretation, but 6 I don't know how it's defined here and what the 7 breadth of the community would be. 8Q Well, let's assume that it's included, that 9 these class plaintiffs are included in the community. 10 According to Monsanto, they're supposed to provide 11 information to these people about the disposal of its 12 products, right? Because they're a stakeholder, 13 correct? 14 A Assuming that the people in these 15 communities that you discuss are the same as the 16 people in this community, that would be correct. 17 Q How in the world -- you tell me what that 18 means then, the community. It means my plaintiffs to 19 me. You tell me why I'm wrong if you think I am. 20 A The way I interpret community here would be 21 those people that would be adj acent to Monsanto or in DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032917 22 the neighborhood of the Anniston plant or the plant -- 23 let's see. In 1969,1 was in the ag department, so I BAIN & ASSOCIATES 179 1 used to frequent Muscatine, Iowa and the Muscatine, 2 Iowa community. 3Q Am I unreasonable in defining community as 4 any person who may be affected by products that 5 Monsanto produced at the Anniston plant? Would that 6 be unreasonable? 7 A Absolutely. 8Q That would be unreasonable? 9 A Yeah. 10 Q Do you really think so? 11 A Sure. 12 Q You think that -- let me get this straight. 13 A Okay. 14 Q Monsanto is sewering thousands of pounds of 15 PCB right out of a pipe, right into a ditch that goes 16 into Snow Creek into Choccolocco Creek and into Lake 17 Logan Martin. You'll agree with everything I just 18 said, right? 19 MR. COX: You want him to assume that -- 20 MR. GRAMMAS: No, that's a fact. 21 A Is that an assumption? 22 Q No. I'm asking you. I mean, you as the 23 environmental manager of this entire company who you DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032918 BAIN & ASSOCIATES 180 1 come here today representing, you're not telling me 2 that you're unaware of that practice that went on for 3 40 years at your company, are you? 4A lam unaware of that practice prior to 5 certainly 1969 and probably up until about 1995 or 6 '96. 7Q When you say you're unaware of it, are you 8 saying you didn't know it was happening or it was not 9 happening? 10 A The only thing I can say is what I know and 11 so, I cannot speak to what I don't know and so, when I 12 say I'm not aware, then I don't know. 13 Q That didn't answer my question. Are you 14 testifying here under oath, Mr. Eley, that Monsanto 15 employees did not sewer intentionally thousands and 16 thousands of pounds of PCBs off of its site into this 17 eco system? 18 A And I'm saying I don't know. 19 Q And so that means you're not in the position 20 to dispute that fact, correct? 21 A I think it means what I state and that is 22 that I don't know. 23 Q Well, let's just assume that that is a BAIN & ASSOCIATES DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032919 181 1 fact. Let's assume that Monsanto did that, sewered 2 PCBs that floated into Snow, Choccolocco Creeks and 3 into Logan Martin. Okay? Those PCBs because of their 4 persistent characteristics and their bioaccumulative 5 characteristics are now in Lake Logan Martin, in 6 Choccolocco Creek bioaccumulating in fish that people 7 eat, causing fish advisories on Choccolocco Creek and 8 Logan Martin. Assume all those facts to be true. 9 Okay? Are you with me? 10 A And we are the contributor? 11 Q And you're the contributor. 12 A We're the contributor. Okay. 13 Q With all those facts assumed, sir, are the 14 people who are members of this class who live on 15 Choccolocco Creek and Lake Logan Martin in your 16 opinion considered part of the community that this 17 product stewardship guideline is telling to us? 18 A No, I don't believe so. 19 Q They're still not. So, in your opinion 20 then, Mr. Eley, these people don't have a right to 21 know what Monsanto dumped in this river system. Is 22 that a fair statement? 23 A No, not at all. BAIN & ASSOCIATES 182 DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032920 1Q According to this guideline in your opinion 2 Monsanto doesn't have any obligation to disclose to 3 these people how they dispose of these PCBs. Is that 4 what you're saying? 5A No, that's not what I'm saying. 6Q Does Monsanto have an obligation to tell 7 these people what they did with their PCBs? 8 MR. COX: Object to the form. 9 Q In your opinion? 10 A Under the hypothetical situation that you 11 just discussed where you have -- and your question is 12 do we have an obligation to tell that community as you 13 defined them what? 14 Q How they disposed of PCBs. 15 MR. COX: How who, Monsanto? 16 MR. GRAMMAS: Of course. 17 A I don't know whether we had that obligation 18 or not. 19 Q Well, under your worldwide guideline number 20 six -- 21 A Okay. 22 Q -- read to the jury starting with the word 23 "stakeholder" what Monsanto required you and all of BAIN & ASSOCIATES 183 1 its employees to do. 2A "The stakeholders will be provided DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032921 3 information regarding handling, storage, use and 4 disposal of Monsanto products." And the way that we 5 have done that for many years is through the use of 6 our material safety data sheets which fall under the 7 domain of the product safety or product stewardship 8 group. 9Q Just so the record is clear, Mr. Eley, PCBs 10 were in fact a Monsanto product? 11 A PCBs I believe were contained in a series of 12 Monsanto products and formulations. 13 Q You know, that brings up an interesting 14 point. In these testing letters that you sent to 15 these people -- we've identified one as an exhibit. 16 MR. COX: Here it is. 17 Q Just so you'll know what type of letters I'm 18 talking about. 19 A Correct. 20 Q On someof these people's property that 21 tested above five parts per million, you went and did 22 further testing, didn't you? Monsanto or Solutia, 23 whoever it was, not you personally, but your company BAIN & ASSOCIATES 184 1 that you were working for tested the products further 2 at that point when they learned that PCBs were present 3 in over five parts per million in the soil? DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032922 4A I think we did further analysis. 5Q Right. And that further analysis was done 6 to tell you what type of Aroclor you were finding, 7 right? 8A The analysis was to confirm analytically 9 what the level of PCBs were. The particular 10 analytical procedure was the one that I believe ADEM 11 requested us to use. Now, as a part of using that 12 analytical procedure, the analytical results are 13 reported in mixtures of PCBs, but the purpose of 14 actually doing the further analysis was not to 15 discriminate the various PCB mixtures. 16 Q But that was one of the results of the 17 further testing, right? 18 A The data was reported in that fashion using 19 that EPA analytical method. 20 Q Right. In other words -- let's break it 21 down so I can understand this in laymen's terms. 22 After Monsanto did its testing, it knew exactly which 23 Aroclors were in these people's properties, didn't it? BAIN & ASSOCIATES 185 1A I'm not an expert in analytical chemistry 2 and certainly not in the analysis that was done, but 3 the analytical results as reported by the laboratory 4 to our sampling people, as I understand, did 5 differentiate various Aroclor mixtures based on an DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032923 6 analytical fingerprint -- 7Q That's right. 8 A -- of the sample results. 9Q And a fingerprint -- if I stick my thumb 10 right here and lift it off and I walk away and even 11 though nobody is here anymore, somebody can come by 12 and dust that spot and match it and say Pete Grammas 13 was here. That's what a fingerprint is, right? 14 A Correct. 15 Q In other words, after y'all got through with 16 all this testing, Monsanto knew that the PCBs it put 17 on these people's property were in fact from Monsanto, 18 not from any other source in the whole world because 19 it was fingerprinted right to your Aroclors, right? 20 A The samples of -- we sampled soil. You just 21 stated that PCBs that we put on the soil or we put in 22 those properties -- 23 Q Look, I don't want to put in any statements BAIN & ASSOCIATES 186 1 in this question that you're not happy with or that 2 you may take issue with. So, I'm going to reword it. 3 I'm going to word it very carefully. 4 Monsanto was able to determine that the PCBs 5 found on this property were PCBs manufactured at its 6 Anniston plant based on the fingerprint analysis you DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032924 7 got from these test results, correct? 8A I don't believe so, no. 9Q You don't think that's right? 10 A I don't believe so. 11 Q Monsanto could tell -- when we say Aroclor, 12 we mean the PCB, right? 13 A Aroclor -- 14 Q Aroclor is PCB? 15 A -- is a trade name for Monsanto PCB 16 formulations. 17 Q Right. And there are different types of 18 Aroclors, right? 19 A There are different formulations-- 20 different Aroclors, that's correct. 21 Q Some have more chlorine molecules than 22 others, right? 23 A That's correct. BAIN & ASSOCIATES 187 1Q And after all this fancy testing, you were 2 able to determine which Aroclors were present on the 3 property, correct? 4A Not really. We were able to determine by 5 this fingerprint, this profile which types or mixtures 6 of PCB s matched the analytical standards that were 7 used by the laboratory, the source of the standards 8 being various Aroclor mixtures. DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032925 9Q Right. In other words, I leave a 10 fingerprint on a table, the FBI has a fingerprint in 11 its computer system, they dust it, my fingerprint and 12 they compare it and the two match. That's really what 13 you're saying. 14 A They've got a--1 think there is a fairly 15 close match. Analytically how that is carried out, 16 I'm not really sure. 17 Q I know you're not an expert on PCBs. You've 18 fairly disqualified yourself. But the fact remains, 19 sir, that after this testing Monsanto knew that the 20 PCBs that were being found on this property were PCBs 21 that were generated out of its Anniston plant or more 22 fairly, PCBs that were manufactured by Monsanto, 23 right? BAIN & ASSOCIATES 188 1A I don't know that, no. 2Q As of October 12th, 1990, Monsanto had a 3 policy of manufacturing only those products that did 4 not represent an unreasonable risk of harm when 5 properly handled, true? 6A I believe we had a product stewardship 7 guideline or document that spoke to that issue. 8Q And the reason y'all had that product 9 stewardship guideline is because in the past you had DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032926 10 manufactured products that posed an unreasonable risk 11 of harm to human beings, right? 12 A Incorrect. 13 Q Like PCBs, right? 14 A Incorrect. 15 THE WITNESS: Could we take just a couple 16 minute break to get some more coffee? 17 MR. GRAMMAS: Yeah. 18 (A break was taken.) 19 Q Back to this guideline. Do you recall 20 earlier I asked you about whether you were aware of 21 Monsanto using research animals to test the safety of 22 their products? 23 A Correct. Iremember we -- you asked several BAIN & ASSOCIATES 189 1 questions regarding that. 2Q You didn't recall whether that was ever 3 discussed or talked about to you or with you? 4A Yeah. I didn't recall whether we had a 5 specific position or guideline on that issue. 6Q Now, this environmental, safety and health 7 guideline that you did receive and have read before 8 has a bulletin entitled Research Animal Care, right? 9 A Correct. 10 Q And it talks about Monsanto Company 11 recognizing that animals must be used in research both DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032927 12 to determine the effects of various biological active 13 materials and the safety of its products, right? 14 A Where are you? 15 Q Right up there at the top. 16 MR. COX: He sort of paraphrased it. 17 A Right here? 18 MR. COX: The italicized words. 19 Q Now, that's what this document talks about, 20 right? 21 A That's correct. 22 Q In other words, Monsanto is aware that it 23 has in the past and may in the future manufacture BAIN & ASSOCIATES 190 1 products, chemicals that are dangerous to people, 2 right? I mean, that implicitly recognizes that? 3A This implicitly recognizes that we may in 4 the future or currently manufacture materials that are 5 toxic. 6Q Exactly. That's a better way of saying it. 7 Toxic is poisonous, right? 8A No. 9Q When I think of toxic, I think of a skull 10 and cross bones. 11 A That's not toxic. 12 Q What is toxic? DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032928 13 A Usually when you've got a Class B poison you 14 have to carry a skull and cross bones. Also, there 15 are specific criteria of acute toxicity and if you're 16 above that specific criteria, then it would be, I 17 believe, extremely toxic and then I think there would 18 have to be some skull and cross bones or carry the 19 danger signal word. If it carries a danger signal 20 word, then I would agree the product is dangerous. 21 Q Okay. Monsanto has in the past, currently 22 is and more likely than not will in the future 23 manufacture products that may have an adverse impact BAIN & ASSOCIATES 191 1 on human health if ingested? 2A At sufficient concentrations, yes. 3Q And to get to that level of concentrations 4 that you're wanting to distinguish -- because in your 5 opinion I guess some levels are so low it's not going 6 to have any health effects on human beings, right? 7A I think that's a generally recognized 8 principle of toxicology. 9Q Right. Of which you have no education, 10 training, experience or whatever? 11 A No. Just as we discussed, some seminars and 12 some training at Wayne State University. 13 Q You have a generalized familiarity of these 14 principles, but -- DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032929 15 A Of industrial toxicology, correct. 16 Q Now, Monsanto knows that at certain levels 17 some of its products, including PCBs, right, have an 18 adverse impact on human health at certain levels? 19 A Could have, correct. That's right. 20 Q And the reason Monsanto uses research 21 animals is to try to figure out where that level is 22 based on rodents or mice or whatever it is they're 23 testing, correct? BAIN & ASSOCIATES 192 1 MR. COX: Are you asking -- 2A Yes, in a way you would use animals in order 3 to determine the toxicity of a particular chemical 4 either acute, subchronic, chronic using specific 5 protocols that have been developed in the field of 6 toxicology over the last 50 some odd years. 7Q And you're trying to test -- what you're 8 doing is you're putting quantities in the animals, 9 determining the toxicity levels and then drawing an 10 analogy of the toxicity levels of the animal to that 11 of a human being in part because you're not going to 12 test human beings? 13 A In a way that would -- that's correct. 14 Q So, Monsanto uses animals to determine 15 potential human toxicity and has in the past and will DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032930 16 in the future, right? 17 A Yes. You would use animals to conduct your 18 toxicology experiences -- or experiments in order to 19 be able to get a better appreciation or an idea of the 20 possible toxic effects on humans, correct. 21 Q That's right. And there's nothing wrong 22 with those procedures and doing that, is there? I 23 mean, Monsanto does it. BAIN & ASSOCIATES 193 1A In my view, there's nothing wrong with those 2 procedures. 3Q Tell me what the Monsanto pledge was as of 4 January 30th, 1990, Mr. Eley, in your own words. 5A The Monsanto pledge was a series of pledge 6 statements that Dick Mahoney came out with in or 7 around 1990. I think he came out with these 8 particular points at an environmental conference or a 9 conference hosted by the National Wildlife Fund or 10 some organization which spoke to the pledge or a 11 series of pledges that Monsanto had committed to 12 regarding environment, safety and health. 13 Q This was a pledge that the chairman and 14 chief executive officer of Monsanto made to the public 15 and in particular to the National Wildlife Federation, 16 correct? 17 A That's correct. That's -- I guess that's DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032931 18 the organization that I alluded to. 19 Q Right. And a pledge is a promise, isn't it? 20 A In my view, a pledge gets awfully close to a 21 promise. 22 Q Have you in your experience with Monsanto 23 and Solutia been required to read this pledge and BAIN & ASSOCIATES 194 1 follow the dictates of the pledge? 2A I think after the pledge guidelines or the 3 pledge came out along with the pledge guidelines, it 4 was the expectation that all the employees would read 5 those -- the pledge documents and follow the intent of 6 those documents. 7Q And that expectation was announced by Mr. 8 Richard Mahoney, the chairman and chief executive 9 officer, right? 10 A That's correct. 11 Q Now, he was the top dog at Monsanto at that 12 time, right? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And heexpected everybody underneath him to 15 follow the Monsanto pledge, right? 16 A That's correct. 17 Q And Solutia adopted thatpledge as its own, 18 right? DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032932 19 A I don't believe so. 20 Q You don't? 21 A No, not--1 think that we have at this 22 juncture the series of Solutia's commitments. Some of 23 those commitments may be similar to some of the pledge BAIN & ASSOCIATES 195 1 points, but I don't think it's the same document or 2 series of statements. 3Q Is it because Solutia does not agree with 4 some of the pledges that Mr. Mahoney adopted that day? 5A I don't know. 6Q No one has ever told you as a Solutia 7 employee there's no way we're going to adopt that 8 pledge because we'll never comply with it all? 9A No one has said anything about the origin of 10 the documents or the commitments that we have in the 11 environmental area. 12 Q Are you aware of any of these pledges that 13 Solutia refuses to adopt as its own because it will 14 not be able to comply with the pledge once it does 15 adopt it? 16 A I'm not familiar with any particular pledge 17 points of that sort. 18 19 (Plaintiff s Exhibit Number 6 was marked for 20 identification.) DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032933 21 Q I'm going to show you what I have marked as 22 Plaintiffs Exhibit 6. The top of that document on 23 the right-hand corner says what, sir? BAIN & ASSOCIATES 196 1 A Solutia.com/Community/Monsanto pledge. 2 Q That's an Internet site, correct? 3A Correct. 4Q Right underneath that there's the Solutia 5 trademark? 6A Correct. 7Q And underneath that it says the Monsanto 8 pledge? 9A Okay. 10 Q All right? 11 A Yes, it does. 12 Q Did I read all that right? 13 A Uh-huh. 14 Q Now, you're telling me that that doesn't 15 mean Solutia has adopted that pledge as its own? 16 A It seems like to me--because in the top 17 left we have what's also called environmental 18 commitments and it seems like that Solutia has come 19 out with environmental commitments that do differ from 20 the specific pledge statements that are found in this 21 document. And those commitments I believe are not DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032934 22 called the Monsanto pledge, nor are they called the 23 Solutia pledge. BAIN & ASSOCIATES 197 1Q But in 1990, when this pledge was made, 2 Monsanto was the company down here in Anniston that 3 was -- that owned the plant, right? 4 A Correct. 5Q And it owned that plant until September of 6 1997? 7 A That's correct. 8Q So, there was a seven-year period that 9 Monsanto's plant in Anniston was operating under this 10 pledge that you have in your hands, right? 11 A That's correct. 12 Q Third from the bottom, sir, would you read 13 to the jury what -- I'm sorry. His name has slipped 14 my mind. 15 MR. COX: Mahoney. 16 Q Mr. Mahoney promised to the world? 17 A Third from the bottom? 18 Q Uh-huh. 19 A "We must rectify the mistakes of the past 20 while we continue to develop and introduce the new 21 technologies to provide the essentials for mankind in 22 the future." 23 Q Rectify the mistakes of the past. If DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032935 BAIN & ASSOCIATES 198 1 Monsanto is proven to have discharged, dumped, 2 released, whatever word you want to select thousands 3 and thousands of pounds of PCBs into Snow Creek, 4 Choccolocco Creek and Lake Logan Martin, Mr. Eley, 5 your opinion, does Mr. Mahoney's pledge to rectify the 6 mistakes of the past cover that conduct? 7 MR. COX: Object to the form. You can 8 answer it. 9A Could I read the statement again? 10 Q Yes, sir. 11 A And this statement -- is this -- this 12 statement is not part of the Monsanto pledge? 13 Q If s my understanding that it is. 14 MR. COX: Isn't that a speech? 15 Q It was printed off of the Internet site as 16 part of the Monsanto pledge. I read it yesterday. 17 Let me ask you this: Do you feel that should not be 18 part of the Monsanto pledge? 19 A No. This is part of the -- it appears like 20 part of the speech and not part of the specific 21 pledge. 22 Q Well, let me show you something real quick 23 before we answer the question. The top part of this BAIN & ASSOCIATES DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] 199 1 document says Monsanto pledge in boldface, correct? 2 A Yes. 3Q And then it says -- there's a paragraph 4 talking about who this Mr. Mahoney is, where he was 5 talking, who he was talking to and then it says -- and 6 on what date. And then it says, "Here is the pledge 7 announced by Mr. Mahoney." Did I read that correctly? 8 A Correct. 9Q And then there are a series of quoted 10 paragraphs that start on that page and continue 11 uninterrupted through the end of this document, 12 right? Did I read all of that correctly? 13 A Yes, you did, but that is not part of the 14 Monsanto pledge. 15 Q Okay. Hold on just a second, Mr. Eley. 16 A I don't believe. 17 Q Part of this document -- one of the 18 pledges that -- right underneath this it says here is 19 the pledge and one of the pledges starts on page one 20 of two with a quote and it continues uninterrupted to 21 the second page, correct? 22 A Correct. 23 Q So, it's not like I took out one page and BAIN & ASSOCIATES 200 DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032937 1 stuck it in there. I mean, these two were -- these 2 two pages flow together. 3A Well, I'm not suggesting you did that. The 4 only thing is, as I recall, in reading over the 5 pledge -- because the pledge was a series of either 6 eight or nine bullet points, and as I recall reading 7 those specific bullet points that we call the Monsanto 8 pledge, I don't recall those -- or several of these 9 paragraphs, latter paragraphs as being the pledge 10 statements. That's the only thing I'm saying. 11 Q Well, I understand what you're saying and 12 that raised some concern in my mind. And I'll show 13 you this document. We'll go ahead and mark it. 14 15 (Plaintiff s Exhibit Number 7 was marked for 16 identification.) 17 Q This is Plaintiff s Exhibit 7. If s a 18 letter dated November 11th, 1992 from Mr. Pierle. 19 A Mike Pierle, and that's the individual that 20 we spoke of earlier. 21 Q Now, in this letter he talks about a number 22 of things. One of the things that is cited is this 23 Monsanto pledge again, right? 1A 2Q BAIN & ASSOCIATES 201 This is the Monsanto pledge, right. Right. That's your understanding of the DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032938 3 Monsanto pledge, right? 4 A No. This is the Monsanto pledge. 5 Q But if I go on the Internet and I read -- 6 MR. LOWE: And look under Solutia. 7Q If I go under the Internet and look under 8 Solutia and I pull up a document that's entitled 9 Monsanto pledge, it has a few more promises to the 10 public, doesn't it? 11 A I don't know whether I would call that a 12 promise or a statement. 13 Q Well, we're calling it a pledge and you told 14 me earlier that a pledge is mighty close to a promise. 15 A Yeah, but as I said, though, there are 16 several paragraphs in here that I don't believe were 17 part of the pledge and now I'm pretty well convinced 18 of it now that I see the Monsanto pledge. 19 Q From what you've seen as a Monsanto/Solutia 20 employee, you don't believe that these statements that 21 are stuck on the Internet are really part of the 22 pledge, right? 23 A That's correct, not the pledge that I -- as BAIN & ASSOCIATES 202 1 I understand the pledge and its various parts. 2Q But anybody, including myself, who is 3 surfing the web and runs across the Solutia home page DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032939 4 and pulls down the Monsanto pledge is going to believe 5 that that entire document makes up the Monsanto 6 pledge. I mean, isn't that a fair statement? 7A I guess as I read this certainly if you look 8 at the original one, two, three, four, five, six, 9 seven and eight, then I would say that looks to me 10 like it's part of the pledge because it says it is our 11 pledge or our commitment is. 12 Q Okay. That's not what I asked you. That 13 document says below is the pledge and then it has 14 about nine or ten items, bullets -- 15 A Paragraphs. 16 Q Paragraphs -- 17 A Uh-huh. 18 Q --below it. Let's don't mix words. Do you 19 have a problem sitting here today under oath 20 testifying in this case as to committing right here 21 today as part of the pledge to rectify past harms? 22 Let's assume that it's not part of the pledge even 23 though it says it in this document. Can you think of BAIN & ASSOCIATES 203 1 a reason why that wouldn't be part of the pledge? 2A It's not part of the pledge. 3 MR. COX: I think you've established that. 4 I think the problem is one of definitions and I think 5 what Pete is trying to get at now is if it's not a DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032940 6 part of the pledge, should it be. Is that your 7 question? 8Q My question is if it's not a part of the 9 pledge, why isn't it? 10 A I don't know why it isn't part of the pledge 11 if if snot. 12 Q Don't you think that would be something good 13 for Monsanto to pledge? 14 A I guess that it would be my opinion that 15 there's probably thousands and thousands of statements 16 that a person could choose to be a part of the 17 Monsanto pledge. 18 Q But, Mr. Eley, I didn't choose these 19 statements. What I did is I got on the Internet and 20 drew down what somebody at your company wrote as this 21 being the pledge. If I were writing the pledge, I 22 would say we pledge to clean up all the PCBs in the 23 environment that we've stuck in there. So you know I BAIN & ASSOCIATES 204 1 didn't write this pledge, don't you? 2A Yes. I believe that you did not write that 3 pledge. 4Q And you also know -- I mean, there are 5 quotes around this thing. 6 MR. COX: It's a speech. DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032941 7Q Mr. Mahoney gave a speech to these people 8 and that's when he said that and that's not part of 9 the pledge? Is that the problem we're dealing with 10 here? 11 A I don't know what problem we're dealing 12 with. I do know that Mr.-- 13 Q Was that speech recorded? 14 A -- Mahoney did give a speech to the National 15 Wildlife Federation on the pledge. I believe that 16 I've heard him give two presentations on the Monsanto 17 pledge. In addition, he's given a presentation on the 18 Monsanto pledge numerous times. 19 Q Okay. 20 A Whether he interpreted all of his remarks to 21 be meant to be a part of the Monsanto pledge, I really 22 don't know. 23 Q Okay. As the chairman and chief executive BAIN & ASSOCIATES 205 1 officer of Monsanto, Mr. Mahoney certainly had the 2 right to set policy for Monsanto, correct? 3 A He certainly did. 4 Q Right. And one of the ways of setting 5 policies for the company is to stand up in public and 6 represent that this company is going to do certain 7 things, isn't that true? 8A Would you repeat that, please? DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032942 9Q Sure. Mr. Mahoney set a policy for Monsanto 10 to rectify the mistakes of the past when he stood up 11 before the National Wildlife Federation in Washington, 12 D.C. and said that Monsanto would rectify the mistakes 13 of the past. Would you not agree with that? 14 A I would not agree with that necessarily. 15 Q So, you don't have a problem with Mr. 16 Mahoney, the top dog at Monsanto, getting up in public 17 and saying we must rectify the mistakes of the past 18 when he never intended for the company to do that? 19 A No, that's not what I said. 20 Q So, when he stands up there and says we're 21 going to rectify the mistakes of the past, do the 22 people who are hearing those words have a right to 23 believe him? BAIN & ASSOCIATES 206 1A I don't know. You would have to really-- 2Q Ask them, right? 3 A Ask them. I can't speak for them. 4 Q Do you think that he is a man that should be 5 believed? 6A Oh, yes, knowing Mr. Mahoney and not very 7 well, but I certainly think he is a credible 8 individual. 9Q Why in the world, sir, would Monsanto or DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032943 10 Solutia publish this document on the Internet if it's 11 not part of their policy? Do you have any reason? 12 A I think there's probably parts of that that 13 is part of their policy and part of the pledge. 14 Q Where does it say in this document this is 15 no longer our policy? Here is the pledge, but now 16 there is no pledge. Tell me where from a reader's 17 standpoint I can learn where the pledge starts and 18 where the pledge ends. 19 A I guess on the first point right now if s my 20 understanding that in Solutia we do not have a 21 Monsanto pledge. We have a series of environmental 22 commitments. Most of those I believe mirror or are 23 similar to the pledge points that Mr. Mahoney brought BAIN & ASSOCIATES 207 1 out in 1990. 2Q All I'm asking you, sir, is when I read that 3 I thought hey, Monsanto has made a pledge, a promise, 4 a statement, a policy, however you want to define it 5 to rectify mistakes of the past. Now you're telling 6 me under oath that that's not something Monsanto wants 7 to do? 8A No. I'm telling you that what you've just 9 stated is not the Monsanto pledge. 10 Q I don't care if if s the pledge or not, 11 sir. Is it a policy of Monsanto's to rectify mistakes DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032944 12 of the past as Mr. Mahoney said on January 30th, 1990 13 in his speech to the National Wildlife Federation? 14 A I don't know because I haven't really seen 15 that policy. 16 Q Do you think that would be a good thing for 17 Monsanto to do -- 18 A I don't know. 19 Q -- and Solutia to do? 20 A I don't know. 21 Q Would you agree, sir, that if Monsanto 22 allowed thousands of pounds of PCBs to escape its 23 property and get into this eco system that we have BAIN & ASSOCIATES 208 1 been talking about all day that that would be a 2 mistake? 3 MR. COX: Object to the form. 4A Not necessarily. I don't know what you mean 5 by mistake or how you define mistake. 6Q I define mistake as something that shouldn't 7 happen. 8A Then I would not agree with you. 9Q You think it was perfectly proper for 10 Monsanto to dump PCBs off of its property into Snow, 11 Choccolocco Creeks and Lake Logan Martin? 12 A I'm saying that under the environmental DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032945 13 statutes and requirements that existed in the past 50 14 years that it may have been perfectly permissible, 15 permitted and acceptable to do that. 16 Q Are you testifying under oath that assuming 17 it were permissible in the past to do that and it's 18 having an adverse effect today that Monsanto can 19 simply close its eyes to this problem? 20 A I don't know that it's having an adverse 21 effect today. 22 Q Well, Monsanto has spent about $30 million 23 cleaning the PCBs off of its own property, hasn't it? BAIN & ASSOCIATES 209 1A I've seen the $30 million or $30 billion 2 reported in the paper, which I didn't think it was 30 3 billion and it may have been 30 million. I'm not sure 4 of exactly what sum of money, how much money Monsanto 5 spent on its remediation project on or adjacent to 6 properties in Anniston. 7Q And the reason that Monsanto is spending the 8 money or has spent the money to clean up its own 9 property is because of the environmental guidelines 10 that were enacted by Mr. Pierle on November 11th, 11 1992? 12 A I don't know that to be true. 13 Q Well, in the guideline entitled Monsanto 14 pledge guideline for pollution prevention under bullet DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032946 15 number 1.4 it talks specifically about polychlorinated 16 biphenyls, doesn't it? 17 A That is the title of that paragraph, section 18 1.4. 19 Q And PCBs are a shorthand of polychlorinated 20 biphenyls, right? 21 A Correct. 22 Q And right next to that it says "PCB-free"? 23 A Correct. BAIN & ASSOCIATES 210 1 Q It says PCB-free? 2 A Correct. 3 Q Well, read to me what the paragraph says. 4 A The paragraph states, "All company-owned 5 sites, for example, warehouses, plants, offices 6 located in the United States will minimize the 7 potential for releases of polychlorinated biphenyls 8 (PCB) by becoming "PCB-free" of Toxic Substances 9 Control Act (TSCA) - contaminated articles by the end 10 of 1994." 11 Q In other words, we will becomea PCB-free 12 company by the end of 1994 and any PCBs we have on our 13 property will be removed by that date, right? 14 MR. COX: Object to the form. 15 A I don't know whether that's right or not. DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032947 16 Q Well, when the laymen reads something that 17 is PCB-free, do you think it's unreasonable for 18 somebody to say hey, it means there aren't any PCBs 19 there? 20 A No. It's generally -- the way that I 21 interpret quoted or quotations, particularly things 22 within quotations -- and again, I reiterate quoted or 23 quotation PCB-free -- then one has to look at that and BAIN & ASSOCIATES 211 1 say PCB-free then has some type of special meaning. 2 Q Right. 3 A Now, what is the special meaning? 4Q You're the one who worked for Monsanto, Mr. 5 Eley. I'm just reading the guideline that says you're 6 going to become PCB-free. And now you're telling me 7 that I can't read that to mean that there won't be any 8 PCBs on your plant sites. 9A No, I don't believe that's true. I think 10 that I would interpret that -- and I would ask you to 11 read this particular document or this particular 12 paragraph with an understanding that PCB-free probably 13 has a specific meaning and I would suggest that that 14 meaning and the usage of PCB-free might have a 15 particular definition within the context of the Toxic 16 Substances Control Act itself and the regulations 17 underneath that. DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032948 18 Q Are you finished? 19 A Uh-huh. 20 Q You are the manager of environmental affairs 21 for Solutia, right? 22 A Manager, environmental affairs, that's 23 correct. BAIN & ASSOCIATES 212 1Q And they picked you to go down there and 2 deal with PCB remediation issues, right? 3A They picked me to go to the plant or go into 4 that area and coordinate the PCB sampling of soils as 5 called for under the consent order agreement. That 6 would be my responsibility at that time. 7Q Which was a remediation issue? 8A It was a remediation issue. 9Q Now, tell me what PCB-free means. With all 10 of that knowledge, experience, titles, all whatever 11 you come to this table with, tell me what it means. 12 A I think in this context PCB-free is I think 13 a term of art that's used in the regulations in the 14 Toxic Substances Control Act, but I'm not really sure 15 because I am not that familiar with those regulations. 16 Q What do you think it means? Don't tell me 17 it's a term. I want to know what the term means in 18 your opinion. DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032949 19 A You mean in the context of that particular 20 - 21 Q Right. 22 A That would I believe mean that when a plant 23 is PCB-free that means that it no longer uses BAIN & ASSOCIATES 213 1 PCB-containing formulations specifically closed system 2 applications like transformers and capacitors. 3Q So, in other words, it's not using 4 transformers that have PCBs in them? 5 A Transformers or electrical capacitors. 6 Q And it doesn't mean that -- in other words, 7 as long as the Monsanto plant in Anniston isn't using 8 a transformer that has some volume of PCBs in it, it 9 can call itself PCB-free even though it's storing 10 thousands of pounds of PCBs in unlined landfills on 11 its site? 12 A I believe in the context of the way that 13 PCB-free is used in that paragraph -- I believe you're 14 absolutely right. 15 Q Okay. So, you can -- in your opinion you 16 can legally and accurately state that the Monsanto 17 plant in Anniston is PCB-free? 18 A No. I don't suggest to legally imply 19 anything. What I indicated is as best I understand 20 that paragraph when you read PCB-free, it relates to a DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032950 21 particular site that is free of any PCB-containing 22 electrical transformers, capacitors or other articles 23 that may contain PCB. BAIN & ASSOCIATES 214 1Q Including -- 2A And the term of art is specific to 3 regulations under the Toxic Substances Control Act. 4Q So, in Monsanto's opinion, there is not a 5 single problem with storing all these PCBs in an 6 unlined landfill? 7A I don't know what Monsanto's opinion is. I 8 just gave you my opinion, my interpretation of that 9 paragraph. 10 Q Right underneath this PCB-free paragraph, 11 Mr. Eley, there's another paragraph entitled Land 12 Disposal. And it says that landfills of acutely 13 hazardous wastes will not be practiced. Did I read 14 that correctly? 15 A Let's see. 16 Q The first sentence, "Landfills of acutely 17 hazardous wastes will not be practiced." 18 A Well, it says, landfills of acutely 19 hazardous wastes with a footnote, and that footnote 20 here indicates as listed in 40 CFR 261.33(e), plus any 21 mixtures containing greater than five percent, and DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032951 22 incinerables with a footnote, hazardous wastes or 23 wastes managed as hazardous, with a heat of combustion BAIN & ASSOCIATES 215 1 greater than 6,000 BTUs per pound located -- 2 MR. COX: No. Wait. 3A Will not be practiced. 4 MR. GRAMMAS: Let's go off the record for a 5 second. 6 (Discussion off the record.) 7Q (By Mr. Grammas) All right. I'm going to 8 give you section 261.33. Are PCBs or any form or 9 portion thereof contained in there? 10 MR. GRAMMAS: And, Buddy, you may be able to 11 help him. 12 (Discussion off the record.) 13 MR. GRAMMAS: I'm not trying to hold y'all 14 to it and whatever it is, it is, but off the record we 15 had a discussion where basically I was informed by the 16 environmental expert over here to your left that PCBs 17 aren't contained in this CFR regulation and they're 18 contained in the Toxic Substances Control Act. 19 MR. COX: They are regulated under the 20 regulations implemented in the Toxic Substances 21 Control Act which is at 40 CFR 760,1 believe. 22 Q (By Mr. Grammas) So basically what Monsanto 23 has done in this guideline is it has said we will not DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032952 BAIN & ASSOCIATES 216 1 tolerate acutely hazardous wastes in any landfills and 2 then it defines it to exclude PCBs, right? 3A No, I don't think that's what this has done 4 at all. 5Q Does it include PCBs? 6A Based on the conversation I just heard, it 7 does not. 8Q But it does in your own definition of a 9 toxic -- of an acutely toxic compound. PCBs are 10 acutely toxic under your understanding in the field of 11 industrial hygiene, right? 12 A Under the field of industrial hygiene, but 13 again, I would indicate that here you're talking about 14 a term of art. Both -- in fact, you've got two terms 15 of art, acutely hazardous and incinerable that are 16 defined specifically under a particular regulation. 17 Q I hear you. 18 A And that regulation is not OSHA. 19 Q And you don't know if it does or does not 20 contain -- that definition contains PCBs? 21 A I personally do not. 22 Q If it does, then Monsanto is violating its 23 own guideline in landfilling all the PCBs out there in BAIN & ASSOCIATES DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032953 217 1 Anniston, right? 2A The way I would read that particular 3 paragraph is that if PCB -- PCB waste or PCBs fell 4 within acutely hazardous or whatever that other 5 combustible is, that it should not be landfilled. 6Q Okay. In this cover letter of November 7 11th, 1992 by Mr. Pierle to the employees at Monsanto, 8 he states that in support of a commitment towards the 9 environment and safety of human beings that Monsanto 10 developed the Monsanto pledge guidelines. 11 A Okay. 12 Q And that these new guidelines replace our 13 environmental, safety and health guidelines, which is 14 Exhibit 5 that we've been reading, right? 15 A I believe that's correct. 16 Q Now, you will admit that in 1989 through 17 1992 the environmental, safety and health guidelines 18 controlled what Monsanto should or should not do at 19 the Anniston plant regarding environmental issues, 20 right? And then starting in November of 1992 this 21 document kicked in. 22 A I believe that's correct. 23 Q Now, on the Monsanto pledge guideline number BAIN & ASSOCIATES 218 DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032954 1 four, sir, it's entitled Product Stewardship; is that 2 correct? 3 A Yes, it is. 4Q We had a similar guideline in the older one 5 that was entitled Product Stewardship, right? 6A As I recall, I believe we did. 7Q And that was the one where we had some 8 discussion about how a community is defined, right? 9 A Correct. 10 Q And in that product stewardship, 11 stakeholders, if you will recall, were defined as 12 employees, customers and the community? 13 A Correct. 14 Q Now, in this 1992 Monsanto pledge guideline 15 under product stewardship it defines stakeholders a 16 little bit differently, doesn't it? 17 A Well, among the stakeholders that it has in 18 parentheses after that word is suppliers, employees, 19 distributors, customers, consumers and disposers. 20 Q Right. And when a word follows -- when 21 parentheses follow a word, isn't that really defining 22 what that word is in this context? When you see the 23 word "stakeholder" and parentheses after that, this BAIN & ASSOCIATES 219 1 man, Mr. Pierle, is telling you what stakeholder 2 means, right? DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032955 3A Well, what he's telling me is this is the 4 type of stakeholders I'm talking about. 5Q Right. He's defining it to include those 6 people and only those people, correct? 7 A Well, I don't know that to be the case. 8 Q That's what it says right there, 9 stakeholders paren. 10 A No. It just tells me that it is included. 11 It doesn't tell me what's excluded. 12 Q It doesn't tell you what's excluded, but you 13 can tell me unequivocally that communities are not 14 included in his new definition of stakeholder, right? 15 A That word does not appear in that particular 16 sentence. 17 Q Okay. Now, in here on this product 18 stewardship pledge guideline, in the new one he 19 doesn't say that these stakeholders even though 20 they're not defined to include communities are 21 entitled to be provided with information regarding the 22 disposal of Monsanto products, does he? 23 A You mean -- where, under the -- BAIN & ASSOCIATES 220 1 Q Right. 2 A The caption, the header of this 3 particular -- DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032956 4Q Correct. 5 A -- pledge guideline? 6 Q That's correct. 7 A And your question again was? 8 Q He doesn't say that stakeholders will be 9 provided information regarding among other things the 10 di sposal of Monsanto products? 11 A No, but what is stated is that the company 12 will work with product stakeholders to understand and 13 reduce risks associated with life cycle. And what 14 you've just described is life cycle. It now is a term 15 of art. 16 Q There's a lot of terms of art. 17 A Well, if s the cradle to grave and life 18 cycle -- in fact, life cycle analysis is a new concept 19 in product stewardship. 20 Q But it certainly doesn't state it as clearly 21 as the product stewardship worldwide guideline where 22 it just said quite simply we'll provide your 23 stakeholders information about the disposal of our BAIN & ASSOCIATES 221 1 products. 2A Well, to me life cycle -- associated with 3 life cycle is quite clear. 4Q Okay. So that -- 5A And I interpret that to mean all of that. DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032957 6 All of that is included under life cycle. 7Q And another thing we know then -- even 8 assuming your interpretation to be the correct one, we 9 know that the new Monsanto pledge does not feel any 10 responsibility to communicate the disposal of its 11 product to the community because the community is not 12 listed as a stakeholder anymore. 13 A The community is not listed in that first 14 paragraph. I would agree with that. 15 Q That means they are no longer stakeholders 16 under the official Monsanto pledge guideline, correct? 17 A I don't know whether that is correct or not. 18 Q Well, under that -- they're not included in 19 the definition of it. You'll agree with me at least 20 that far, won't you, Mr. Eley? 21 A They're not included as examples. I don't 22 know whether they're excluded. 23 Q I understand that. I didn't ask you about BAIN & ASSOCIATES 222 1 exclusion. I said they're not included. I said that 2 on purpose so your answers can be shorter. They are 3 not included on the definition provided in the 4 paragraph right under product stewardship, right? 5A Again, I would suggest that there is no 6 definition. DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032958 7Q What do you mean you would suggest there is 8 no definition? 9A Well, you had indicated earlier that where 10 you see a word and then parentheses afterwards that 11 defines what that means. I don't fully agree with 12 that concept. Where you've got a particular word and 13 then you've a got a parenthetical series of examples, 14 then to me that is for example and those are examples 15 of stakeholders, but I couldn't say specifically or 16 definitively whether that excludes other possible 17 stakeholders like community. 18 Q All right. Well, let me ask you this then: 19 In his November 11th, 1992 letter to you and all the 20 other Monsanto employees, Mr. Pierle states that these 21 guidelines, this new pledge is going to replace the 22 old pledge, correct? 23 A No. This pledge guideline replaces the BAIN & ASSOCIATES 223 1 environment, safety and health guidelines. These were 2 never called pledge guidelines. 3Q All right. The Monsanto pledge guidelines 4 that are attached to the November 11th, 1992 letter to 5 you and all the other Monsanto employees by Mr. 6 Pierle, he says that these pledge guidelines replace 7 the worldwide guidelines that we've already talked 8 about that's marked as Exhibit 5. DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032959 9A Replace and supersede, correct. 10 Q Well, this man is a very bright gentleman, 11 isn't he? 12 A I've known Mr. Pierle for a number of years, 13 he certainly is. 14 Q And he's certainly capable of looking up and 15 comparing definitions, situations and selecting and 16 choosing which words will go in which documents, is he 17 not? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And you've already testified when we first 20 started talking about these guidelines that a lot of 21 work went into producing these guidelines, didn't you? 22 A No. I think I indicated I'm not sure how 23 much work went into the guidelines. And I think you BAIN & ASSOCIATES 224 1 said that it looks like there's apparently a lot of 2 work that went into the guidelines. 3 Q And you agreed with that. 4 A I said that may be the casewith some. 5Q But you certainly agreed that the words have 6 meanings, that they were selected for a purpose, 7 right? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Well, if community is used inthe definition DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032960 10 of stakeholders in the old one, specifically used, 11 along with employees and customers and then we come to 12 the new one on product stewardship and community is 13 not used, but employees and customers and suppliers 14 are used, doesn't that tell you that employees -- that 15 community is no longer considered a stakeholder? 16 A No, not necessarily. It tells me that what 17 we have is a series of pledge documents that were 18 developed in 1992. These documents, by the way, were 19 developed to supersede the environment, safety and 20 health guidelines that we discussed earlier. 21 Q I don't want to know all that. I really 22 don't. 23 A And also, the guidelines that the Chemical BAIN & ASSOCIATES 225 1 Manufacturers Association had come out with. So, I 2 think that probably a lot of the wording was chosen to 3 be consistent with the new pledge guidelines and also 4 the guidelines or the -- I think it's a series of 5 guidelines under the CMA. 6Q I'm going to ask you a very simple question. 7 It calls for a very simple short answer. In the old 8 worldwide guidelines community was included as a group 9 of people who had a right to know about how Monsanto 10 disposed of its products and in the new guidelines the 11 community is not included at least in this document as DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032961 12 it appears under Exhibit 6 as a group of people who 13 have a right to know about how Monsanto disposes of 14 its products, correct? 15 MR. COX: Object to the form. I think 16 you've got -- I'm not trying to testify, but -- 17 MR. GRAMMAS: Well, let him answer. Just 18 obj ect to the form. 19 MR. COX: I'll object to the form, but I 20 think there's a specific guideline for the community 21 that's not -- was not in the worldwide guidelines that 22 is in the second document. 23 Q Is it here? BAIN & ASSOCIATES 226 1 A I know there is. 2 Q Is it here? 3 A No. 4 MR. COX: It's not under the product 5 stewardship. 6A The word "community" does not appear in that 7 heading underneath that paragraph. 8 MR. COX: Under product stewardship. 9Q Right, which means that -- well, we've been 10 through it a thousand times. The jury is going to 11 know exactly what I'm asking. 12 All right. Monsanto pledge number eight, I DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032962 13 bet you that's what Mr. Cox was talking about, wasn't 14 it? 15 MR. GRAMMAS: Buddy, is that it? 16 MR. COX: Yeah. 17 Q Monsanto pledge, Community Awareness at 18 Manufacturing Sites. Is that what you're talking 19 about, Mr. Eley, the guideline? 20 A That is one of the pledge guidelines where 21 the word "community" is found. 22 Q Tell me where in this guideline does it say 23 that Monsanto, and now Solutia, will tell the BAIN & ASSOCIATES 227 1 community -- will voluntarily disclose to the 2 community information regarding product disposals 3 including PCBs? 4 A Could I read this? 5Q Sure. 6 A Okay. 7 (A break was taken.) 8Q (By Mr. Grammas) Where in there, sir, does 9 it tell that the community -- and just so the record 10 is clear, during the break, you were reading Monsanto 11 pledge guideline number eight which is the community 12 awareness -- 13 A At manufacturing sites. 14 Q Right. Tell me in there where it says that DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032963 15 the community will be provided information by Monsanto 16 about PCB disposal or product disposal? 17 A I think that there are probably several 18 paragraphs, but the paragraph that caught my attention 19 was the one that reads -- and this is under section 20 8.1 that reads, community outreach programs will be 21 implemented at each manufacturing plant to inform key 22 audiences -- and those key audiences are listed as an 23 example, emergency responders, community officials, BAIN & ASSOCIATES 228 1 the media, employees and other businesses and the 2 community -- about the facility's emergency response 3 program, chemical inventory, impact evaluation and 4 potential risks to the community associated with the 5 facility. The information provided will include 6 details on such topics as waste minimization, 7 emissions reduction, health effects of chemicals and 8 efforts to ensure safe transport of chemicals. 9 Now, while the word "disposal" is not 10 specifically a part of that, in my view, waste 11 minimization, emissions reduction, all of that 12 includes chemical handling, use, disposal. It even 13 talks in here about inventory. It talks about safe 14 transport of chemicals. We may be dealing with 15 semantics, but to me this right here is certainly a DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032964 16 broader and more effective communication than the last 17 document I saw where we talked about that one 18 communication I think that you had in there. 19 Q Are you finished? 20 A Yes. 21 Q I'm going to ask you the same question, but 22 I'm showing you Exhibit 5, worldwide guideline number 23 six. Tell me, sir, where in this document does it say BAIN & ASSOCIATES 229 1 that the community, which is defined here as 2 stakeholders, will be provided information about 3 disposal? This document. 4A Where in here? 5Q Yeah. It says it in one sentence, doesn't 6 it? 7A It says up at the top as the leader or the 8 header of the guideline underneath product stewardship 9 that stakeholders will be provided information 10 regarding handling, storage, use and disposal of 11 Monsanto products. 12 Q It says it right off the top before you get 13 into any of the paragraphs. If s one of the first 14 things that Monsanto is going to do toward product 15 stewardship. And before 1992, Monsanto had a pledge 16 to give all of its stakeholders, which are defined as 17 community people, information about product disposal, DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032965 18 correct? 19 A No. It had a guideline, but no pledge 20 existed prior to -- in 1989. 21 Q Guideline, policy, pledge, you can call it 22 whatever you want, but we know that following these 23 things was not an option. Do you recall that BAIN & ASSOCIATES 230 1 testimony we talked about earlier? 2A I think when we talked about the spirit of 3 these, that's correct. 4Q Yeah. And in the spirit of this document, 5 Mr. Eley, isn't it a fact that at least as of 1992 6 people at Monsanto should have told the community that 7 it was storing PCBs in a landfill? Lord knows how 8 many thousands of pounds. 9A I believe this document was 1989. 10 Q I understand that, but it was in effect 11 until 1992. 12 A Oh, excuse me. Okay. 13 Q So, up until 1992, Monsanto according to its 14 own guidelines, according to its own procedures in 15 place that were nonoptional as far as following it or 16 not, you had to follow them, they were requirements, 17 they were mandatory, Monsanto was supposed to tell the 18 community about the disposal of PCBs in its landfill, DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032966 19 true? 20 MR. COX: Object to the form. 21 A It says that stakeholders -- and is this the 22 document where stakeholders -- 23 Q That's the document that you said the BAIN & ASSOCIATES 231 1 community is not broad enough to include my 2 plaintiffs. But however you want to define community, 3 Monsanto had a non-negotiable mandatory obligation to 4 tell the community that it was disposing of PCBs in an 5 unlined landfill at its site in Anniston, correct? 6 MR. COX: Object to the form. Monsanto 7 wasn't disposing of PCBs in 1989 or 1991. 8 MR. GRAMMAS: No. They had already been 9 disposed of, Buddy. They had been there for years 10 and years and years. That's a good point. 11 Q And during all the course of -- answer my 12 question, Mr. Eley. Y'all had to tell them that, 13 didn't you? 14 A No, I don't interpret this guideline with 15 the same degree of meaning that you do. 16 Q Right. It doesn't mean anything to you, 17 does it? 18 A I'm not sure exactly what the original 19 question was. 20 Q The original question was this document DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032967 21 requires you and all the other Monsanto employees to 22 provide stakeholders with information about PCB 23 disposal. That's what it said, isn't it? BAIN & ASSOCIATES 232 1 MR. COX: Object to the form. 2Q I mean, how can you dispute that, Mr. Eley? 3 That's what the bullet says. That's what it says 4 before we even get into the meat of it. How can you 5 tell me that I'm reading it wrong? 6A The bullet does not state that at all. That 7 is a general paragraph under the title product 8 stewardship within the document itself after the 9 introduction. Then you've got the program elements 10 and these particular program elements then are the 11 meat of this particular document. 12 Q What I'm reading here, Mr. Eley, is this 13 statement. It's the second sentence on highlighted 14 type face below full capital words that say product 15 stewardship that says stakeholders will be provided 16 information regarding among other things the disposal 17 of Monsanto products. I mean, I didn't read that 18 wrong, did I? 19 A No, I think you read that sentence 20 correctly. 21 Q We've read it a hundred times. DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032968 22 A 23 Q That's correct. And that includes PCBs? BAIN & ASSOCIATES 233 1 MR. COX: Object to the form. 2 Q Did Monsanto produce PCBs? 3A Monsanto produced PCBs from 1971 until 19 -- 4 excuse me. From 1935 to 1971. 5Q That's right. Well, until 1976 actually, 6 but it stopped in Anniston in '71. 7 A '71. 8Q But you've already told me that PCBs are one 9 of y'all's products. You've already said that. You're 10 not disputing that, are you? 11 A No. We manufactured PCBs and formulated 12 from those a number of products. 13 Q So PCB is a product, right? 14 A That was one of our past products as of this 15 particular point in time. 16 Q Right. And as of this particular point in 17 time and up to 1992, there was a worldwide guideline 18 in place that the Anniston plant came under that said 19 you have an obligation to provide information to 20 stakeholders about disposal of your products including 21 PCBs, right? 22 MR. COX: Object to the form. 23 A Incorrect. DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032969 BAIN & ASSOCIATES 234 1Q That's not right? 2 A Or I don't -- excuse me. Let's just say 3 that I don't agree with the way that you've 4 characterized that particular guideline. 5Q See, I didn't characterize it. I read it. 6 MR. COX: No. You - 7Q Stakeholders will be provided information 8 regarding handling, storage, use, and disposal of 9 Monsanto products. That's what it says. I'm not 10 characterizing anything. 11 A That's what it says under the preface of the 12 guideline. 13 Q Right. 14 A And then one has to go to the specific 15 program elements of the guideline. 16 Q And in your opinion when you do that, it 17 relieves any obligation on the part of Monsanto to 18 tell the community around Anniston that they disposed 19 of PCBs in an unlined landfill at their site? 20 A No. I'm just telling you how I interpret 21 that particular guideline as the one that came out in 22 1989. 23 Q But the one that replaced it does not BAIN & ASSOCIATES DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032970 235 1 specifically state -- however you interpret the old 2 one or the new one, the one that replaced it, which is 3 this new one attached to the November 11th letter in 4 Exhibit 6 to your deposition does not -- Exhibit 7 5 does not mention product disposal anywhere in the 6 community awareness section. And I know you've read 7 into it, but it doesn't have the words "product 8 disposal information will be provided". 9A It does not have those specific words as 10 I've read it. But it has instead waste minimization 11 and a number of other issues that deal with the 12 handling of products. 13 Q So let's go with your definition then. 14 Under your definition, sir, and the way you read into 15 this, as we are sitting here today, Monsanto and 16 Solutia had the obligation to tell the people in the 17 community around the Anniston plant that there are 18 thousands of pounds of PCBs stored in a landfill 19 that's not lined right there on their site, right? 20 Because the way you read it includes product disposal. 21 A What, this guideline? 22 Q Sure. 23 A Well, let's see exactly what that guideline BAIN & ASSOCIATES 236 DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032971 1 does state, shall we? 2Q Well, you've already read it, sir. 3 MR. COX: Let him see the document. 4 A Well, could I see it, please? 5 Q You've already read it and you already told 6 me it includes the obligation to disclose product 7 disposal. I recall you saying that. Why haven't you 8 done it if it's a part of your guideline? 9A The issue deals with community outreach 10 programs, and then it states, the information provided 11 will include details on such topics as waste 12 minimization. And so I don't read it the way that 13 you've just interrupted the guideline. 14 Q So, in other words, you read it the way I 15 read it that this guideline doesn't say anything about 16 telling the community about products that are disposed 17 of in your site in the Anniston plant, right? It 18 doesn't require the employees of Monsanto and/or 19 Solutia to talk to the community about PCBs being 20 disposed of at the Anniston site the way I read it. 21 A I think you're exactly right. I don't see 22 the word "PCBs" anywhere in where. 23 Q Products. I'm using PCBs because that's BAIN & ASSOCIATES 237 1 what this lawsuit is about. The word "products" is 2 used throughout this document. And you've already DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032972 3 said the products include PCBs, remember? 4A Yes. This is a document in 1992? I don't 5 believe PCBs were a product of Monsanto in 1992. 6Q They were a product of Monsanto when they 7 made them for 40 years, weren't they? 8A They were a product prior to or back before 9 this particular document came out. 10 Q And they're a product that's disposed of at 11 the landfill on the site, aren't they? 12 A I'm not so sure that we had disposal of 13 those particular products at that particular point in 14 time. 15 Q Well, let's assume that there are PCBs 16 stored in a landfill on that site. Would you not 17 agree with me -- and that they've been there for years 18 including '89 through to date when these documents 19 were made and apparently are under the obligations 20 that you're being imposed to follow. 21 A Uh-huh. 22 Q If the products are there and disposed of 23 there, you should tell the people around the community BAIN & ASSOCIATES 238 1 that, shouldn't you, according to your own guidelines? 2A I'm not so sure that I interpret the 3 guidelines in that way. DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032973 4Q Look, you can't have your cake and eat it 5 too. Either the guidelines require you to tell 6 community people about product disposal or they 7 don't. Now, which one is it? 8A Well, frankly, I'm not so sure that at the 9 Anniston plant -- I'm not that familiar with all the 10 outreach programs, nor am I familiar with any 11 activities they've had where community people have 12 come into the plant. 13 Q What you're saying is what they don't know 14 won't hurt them and don't say a word until they come 15 and ask us about it? 16 A Certainly that's not what I said. Certainly 17 not. Excuse me. 18 Q Have you spoken to Mr. Kaley since he gave 19 his deposition last week? 20 A Yes, I have. 21 Q Have you spoken to him about this lawsuit? 22 A Not specifically about the lawsuit. The 23 only thing I asked him -- or he noted that he had been BAIN & ASSOCIATES 239 1 at a deposition and just got out because I was under 2 the impression he was out of town. 3Q Did he tell you that he testified that he is 4 aware that PCBs are still being released in the storm 5 water at the Monsanto plant? DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032974 6 A No. 7Q Do you know that to be the case? 8 A No. 9 Q And again, you're the manager of 10 environmental affairs sent down here in part to work 11 on PCB remediation and you don't even know that's 12 happened. Is that what you're testifying to? 13 A That's correct. 14 Q All right. Now,was the Anniston plant part 15 of the Monsanto Company in 1992 when these guidelines 16 went into effect? 17 A Yes. 18 Q You're saying that you don't think these 19 guidelines that we've marked as Exhibit 7 to your 20 deposition applied to the Anniston plant? 21 A No, I don't believe I've stated that at all. 22 Q Well, we're splitting hairs here and that's 23 what is taking this process so long. But in one BAIN & ASSOCIATES 240 1 document it says that stakeholders who are community 2 people should be provided information about product 3 disposal and in another document it doesn't say that. 4A No. It says waste minimization and other 5 aspects of chemical operations. 6Q And you interpret that to mean product DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032975 7 disposal? 8A Waste minimization to me encompasses your 9 disposal practice. 10 Q Your interpretation then requires Monsanto 11 to disclose to the community the fact that the PCBs 12 that it manufactured over that 40-year period, some of 13 which are now being stored in a landfill and being 14 disposed of in a landfill on its site without a liner 15 in it. Yes or no? 16 A I don't know exactly what the design of that 17 landfill is and whether it in fact has a liner or does 18 not have a liner. 19 Q Strike that part of the question. Do you 20 think that the people who live below the mill based on 21 Monsanto's guidelines, pledges, promises, policies 22 have a right -- 23 A The people below what? BAIN & ASSOCIATES 241 1Q The people who live in the community -- 2A Oh, okay. 3Q -- should be informed of the fact that 4 Monsanto stores quantities of PCB in a landfill on its 5 site in Anniston? Do they have that right? And let 6 me limit it. As defined in the pledges, 7 environmental, safety and health guidelines and pledge 8 guidelines? DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032976 9A No, I don't read any of these documents to 10 indicate that there's a right that's due. 11 Q Even though one of them clearly says 12 stakeholders will be given information about the 13 di sposal of Monsanto products? 14 A Given that, yes, correct. 15 16 (Plaintiff s Exhibit Number 8 was marked for 17 identification.) 18 Q I'm going to show you what's been marked as 19 Plaintiff s Exhibit 8. Have you ever seen that 20 document before? 21 MR. COX: You mean this document that you 22 printed off a web site? 23 MR. GRAMMAS: Right. BAIN & ASSOCIATES 242 1A No, I have not. 2Q Have you ever been on your web site? 3A I've been on the web site. 4Q Have you ever looked at the information 5 contained in that web site? 6A Some of the information I have looked at. 7Q And you certainly want the information on 8 that web site to be accurate and complete? 9A One would hope that the information on our DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032977 10 web site would be accurate and complete. 11 Q Who is responsible for posting the 12 information on that web site? 13 A I'm afraid I don't know. 14 Q I'm going to draw your attention, sir, to a 15 particular paragraph. First of all, this is a 1997 16 ES&H annual report for Solutia, Inc., correct? 17 A That is the heading of that document. 18 Q And that ESH stands for environmental, 19 safety and health? 20 A But this is not the '97 ESH annual report. 21 Q No. That's what this document refers to? 22 A Correct. 23 Q Thank you for pointing that out. In this BAIN & ASSOCIATES 243 1 document -- do you know who wrote this document? I 2 can't tell by reading it. Do you know who authored 3 it? 4A No. I'm -- no, I can't. I'm not able to 5 tell by looking at that document. 6Q Well, whoever authored it notes that 7 Solutia has the former chemical business of Monsanto, 8 right? 9 A Correct. 10 Q And that it has extensive manufacturing 11 operations around the world with its largest DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032978 12 concentration of facilities here in the U.S., right? 13 A That is correct. 14 Q When Solutia was created, management clearly 15 stated that the workplace safety and environmental 16 stewards must remain a key responsibility and integral 17 business value. Did I read that right? 18 A That's correct. 19 Q The company had 96 years of experience from 20 which to benefit, right? 21 A That's what this document says. 22 Q In other words, Solutia could rely on the 96 23 years of Monsanto experience to draw upon as far as BAIN & ASSOCIATES 244 1 product stewardship, environmental issues, things like 2 that? 3A Well, I think what it refers to is -- that's 4 right, the chemical operations of Monsanto that were 5 spun off certainly at about a 96-year history. 6Q And to accomplish a smooth transition, Mr. 7 Eley, doesn't this document state that a decision was 8 made at Solutia to leave in place the environmental, 9 safety and health management system practices which 10 had served the Monsanto Company so well? 11 A That's what the document states. 12 Q So, what we're saying then is this document, DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032979 13 which is Plaintiffs Exhibit 7 which is attached to 14 Mr. Pierle's November 11th, 1992 letter, is the 15 Solutia pledge guidelines? 16 A I don't think, again, that we called them 17 the Solutia pledge guidelines. 18 Q Oh, I understand that. 19 A I think they're called the Solutia 20 environmental commitments. 21 MR. COX: Can I help a minute? 22 MR. GRAMMAS: Yeah. 23 MR. COX: Bruce, didn't Solutia come up with BAIN & ASSOCIATES 245 1 its own ESH commitments that were adopted in 1998 that 2 replaced the Monsanto pledge? 3 THE WITNESS: Yes. 4 Q Well, until 1998 5 MR. COX: Between September 1st, 1997 and 6 sometime in the first half of 1998,1 believe the 7 Monsanto pledge guidelines were still basically 8 followed or used until Solutia's commitments could be 9 formalized. 10 THE WITNESS: But I recall seeing11 MR. GRAMMAS: We need a copy of these 12 commitments. 13 MR. COX: I know. They -- we haven't 14 produced them yet in any of the cases and they were DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032980 15 not out when we produced these. 16 MR. GRAMMAS: Can you get us a copy of those 17 before our depositions next week? 18 MR. COX: Who is that, Alan and -- 19 MR. GRAMMAS: Faust. We definitely need it 20 for him. 21 (Discussion off the record.) 22 Q (By Mr. Grammas) Now, in any event, this 23 document, Plaintiffs Exhibit 8, on behalf of Solutia BAIN & ASSOCIATES 246 1 adopts and incorporates the Monsanto pledge guideline 2 that was attached to Mr. Pierle's November 11th, 1992 3 letter, correct? 4A It does indicate that we are incorporating 5 the set of guidelines in 1992 and I believe it's 6 probably these guidelines, yes. 7 8 (Plaintiffs Exhibit Number 9 was marked for 9 identification.) 10 Q I'm going to show you what's been marked as 11 Plaintiffs Exhibit Number 9, Mr. Eley. Could you 12 identify this for me, please, sir? 13 A These are Solutia's commitments to 14 environment, safety and health. 15 Q Now, where -- are these the guidelines that DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032981 16 y'all are now operating under? 17 A I believe these are the commitments that we 18 are currently operating under. 19 Q Now, tell me where in these commitments does 20 it say we are no longer following the 1992 guidelines 21 that Monsanto enacted under Mr. Pierle's instruction. 22 A You mean in the document? 23 Q Sure. BAIN & ASSOCIATES 247 1 A In this document, I find no such wording to 2 that effect. 3 Q Is that in fact true to your understanding? 4 A It's my understanding that that is true. 5 Q So, it's your understanding that Solutia at 6 one point had a set of comprehensive guidelines that 7 is over two inches thick roughly that's attached as 8 Exhibit 7 to your deposition, and then in 1998, it 9 threw all that out the window, for lack of a better 10 word, and now adopted as its new guidelines these six 11 bullets that's contained in -- that are contained in 12 Plaintiffs Exhibit Number 9? 13 A No, that's not my understanding. 14 Q If these guidelines that were in effect in 15 1992 required Monsanto/Solutia to do certain things 16 and they are not inconsistent with these new 17 guidelines under Plaintiffs Exhibit Number 9, would DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032982 18 Solutia still follow these 1992 guidelines? 19 A I'm not exactly sure what our policy is 20 right now concerning these particular guidelines. 21 Q Wait a minute now. You have no idea what 22 policies are in effect right now concerning Solutia's 23 guidelines relating to the environment, health and BAIN & ASSOCIATES 248 1 safety? Is that what I'm hearing you say? 2A We have -- in fact, in 1992 what you have 3 here is you've got the -- I believe the Monsanto 4 pledge and the series of guidelines. When Solutia 5 split or was spun off by Monsanto, I believe that at 6 that particular point in time we continued to operate 7 within these particular guidelines. More recently, 8 Solutia under the auspices of Mike Pierle has come out 9 with a series of Monsanto commitments and -- 10 MR. COX: Excuse me. Correct yourself. 11 Solutia commitments. 12 A Solutia commitments and we will have a 13 series of guidelines under these Solutia commitments. 14 Q When? 15 A I don't know -- that's what I was saying. I 16 don't know where that step is. 17 Q Who is working on this? 18 A I would think it would be the people in ESH DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032983 19 policy and compliance, Garth Fort, I believe some of 20 these individuals. In addition, there are team leads 21 for the three regions and they may be working on some 22 of these. In addition, you have Jeff Felder who may 23 be developing or modifying, if required, some BAIN & ASSOCIATES 249 1 guideline on product stewardship. 2Q All right. But in the meantime, until this 3 document gets produced, this is what Solutia is going 4 by, what I have in my hand, Plaintiffs Exhibit Number 5 9, right? This dictates the environmental policies of 6 Solutia, Plaintiffs Exhibit Number 9? 7A Not in total. 8Q Well, it says in here that Solutia will 9 search worldwide for new technologies that will bring 10 environmental, safety and health value to all of our 11 stockholders. Who does Solutia consider to be -- 12 excuse me. Stakeholders. Who does Solutia consider 13 its -- what groups of people are considered 14 stakeholders according to Solutia? 15 A I don't know. 16 Q Does that include the communities? 17 A I don't know that. 18 Q It says here that Solutia will keep its 19 operations open to the community and foster open 20 communications with all of its stakeholders. Again, DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032984 21 that doesn't necessarily mean the community. Is that 22 what you're saying? 23 A Could I read that, please? BAIN & ASSOCIATES 250 1 Q Yeah, under the bullet that says open. 2 A Which one is that? 3 MR. COX: This one. 4 A Okay. 5 Q The one that says open. 6A "We will keep our operations open to our 7 communities and foster open communications with all of 8 our stakeholders." To me I read that that communities 9 are part of the stakeholders. 10 Q Okay. Open door policy, right? Ask and we 11 will tell. Is that what that document says? 12 A No. It says, "We will keep our operations 13 open to our communities and foster open communications 14 with all of our stakeholders." That's what the 15 document says. 16 Q So that means if somebody calls up Monsanto, 17 now Solutia, and says hey, where are these PCBs coming 18 from, y'all are going to openly and honestly respond 19 to them, right? 20 A I would think we would, yes. 21 Q And what would your answer be? DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032985 22 A Well, I guess number one, I would have to 23 say -- if someone called up, I would say what PCBs are BAIN & ASSOCIATES 251 1 we talking about? 2Q The PCBs in Snow Creek, Choccolocco Creek 3 and Lake Logan Martin. 4A I personally would probably have that person 5 contact someone that's more knowledgeable of the PCBs 6 that may or may not be present in Snow Creek, 7 Choccolocco Creek or Lake Logan Martin. 8Q Who would that person be, Mr. Faust? 9A I would probably in this case direct them to 10 either Mr. Faust or Dr. Kaley. 11 (A break was taken.) 12 Q Tell me, Mr. Eley, if you know, what a 13 sustainable environment means. I've read many 14 articles from Mr. Pierle -- Mr. Pierle has written 15 many articles about a sustainable environment. What 16 does that mean? 17 A It probably means different things to 18 different people. A sustainable environment. I guess 19 to me it means an environment that is able to sustain 20 itself and its ability for human or animal habitat 21 from generation to generation to generation. 22 Q Unchanged? 23 A Not necessarily, no. DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032986 BAIN & ASSOCIATES 252 1Q So, if PCBs are bioaccumulating in fish, but 2 the fish aren't just dropping dead because of it and 3 they're able to reproduce from generation to 4 generation and over time the bioaccumulation levels 5 continue to increase, is that considered a sustainable 6 environment? 7A I don't know. I don't know what kind of 8 environment that would be and whether that would be 9 what I would call a sustainable environment as -- 10 Q Well, under your definitions -- 11 A As implied or -- 12 Q Well, you said it means a lot of things to a 13 lot of people. What it means to you, would that be 14 considered a sustainable environment? 15 A I don't know. The way I described it while 16 ago was in a very macro sense and I think most people 17 do describe sustainable environment in a macro way. 18 Q What I want to -- 19 A And the example that you just brought forth 20 is very specific, and so I don't know whether I have 21 an opinion right now on whether I call that 22 sustainable environment or not. 23 Q And again, you're one of the head BAIN & ASSOCIATES DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032987 253 1 environmental guys at Solutia? 2A My title is environmental manager, but 3 certainly, there are far more people than I that 4 understand or are knowledgeable of environmental 5 operations and regulations. 6Q Tell me a single permit, regulation, 7 whatever that allowed Monsanto to allow PCBs to leave 8 its property, get into Snow Creek, Choccolocco Creek 9 and Lake Logan Martin. 10 A I'm not knowledgeable of environmental 11 permits or those types of requirements. 12 Q So, in other words, sitting here today, you 13 can't identify one single permit, regulation, EPA 14 standard, ADEM requirement, whatever that allowed 15 Monsanto to let PCBs leave its property? 16 A That's correct, I'm not able to do that. 17 Q Well, earlier I asked you if you thought it 18 was wrong that Monsanto would have let PCBs leave its 19 property and deposit into this eco system. And you 20 told me, no, not at that time because the 21 environmental standards at that time allowed them to 22 do it. Now, which ones were you drawing upon? 23 A No, I think you didn't use the word BAIN & ASSOCIATES 254 DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032988 1 "wrong". I think we were talking about whether it was 2 a mistake and how we defined mistake and whether any 3 releases or discharges of PCBs in past years would be 4 considered a mistake. I don't think there was an 5 issue of wrong or right. 6Q So, you do think it's wrong that Monsanto 7 did that? 8A I didn't say that at all. 9Q A mistake, wrong. Again, we're splitting 10 hairs. When I asked you if it was a past mistake, you 11 said no, given the then current environmental 12 standards. Tell me what they were that allowed them 13 to do it that would support your answer. 14 A I think in that context we would have to 15 read back the prior testimony and see exactly what was 16 stated. I don't think that I said that in that way. 17 Q Do you feel that way? 18 A Feel that it was a mistake? 19 Q That it was not a mistake because of 20 whatever regulations were in place at the time or lack 21 of regulations? 22 A I don't know whether it was a mistake or 23 not. BAIN & ASSOCIATES 255 1Q Well, earlier when you testified that it was 2 not a mistake -- and you do recall that. Are you now DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032989 3 retracting that and saying you don't know? 4A No. That's when I suggested that perhaps we 5 would have to go back and read the prior testimony. 6Q Well, let me ask you this: Was it or was it 7 not in your opinion a mistake for Monsanto to allow 8 these PCBs to leave its property and get into this eco 9 system? 10 A It was my opinion no, it was not a mistake. 11 Q Is that still your opinion? 12 A Yeah, that's my opinion. 13 Q I thought you just said you didn't know if 14 it was a mistake or not? 15 A It's my opinion that -- I don't believe it 16 was a mistake because it's my understanding that there 17 were permitted or regulatory requirements that allowed 18 the discharge of certain amounts of chemicals -- 19 Q Including PCBs? 20 A -- from chemical operations. 21 Q Including -- 22 A Chemicals including PCBs. 23 Q And if that understanding is wrong -- just BAIN & ASSOCIATES 256 1 assume for me for a moment that there is nothing, that 2 there never was anything that allowed Monsanto to 3 discharge PCBs into this eco system. Under that DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032990 4 scenario, sir, would the discharge of these chemicals 5 in your opinion be considered a past mistake? 6 A Not necessarily. 7 Q Why not? 8A Unless you had something that would prohibit 9 the release of the material. And if then you did 10 release it in conflict with requirements that you 11 should not, then I would term that a mistake. 12 Q What is responsible care? Is that a term of 13 art for you? 14 A Responsible care is a term of art that was 15 -- I think it's a registered trademark or trademark of 16 a program or series of programs sponsored by the 17 Chemical Manufacturers Association, CMA, located in 18 Washington, D. C. 19 Q Solutia is a member of that association? 20 A We are a member and have been a member -- 21 well, we are a member and certainly when we were part 22 of Monsanto, we were a member of CMA for many years. 23 Q Part of the commitment or pledge that BAIN & ASSOCIATES 257 1 Solutia has as a member of the Chemical Manufacturers 2 Association is to work with others to resolve problems 3 created by past handling and disposal of hazardous 4 substances, isn't that right? 5A I'm not sure whether that is right or not. DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032991 6Q Well, would you agree that that should be 7 something Solutia does? 8A Would you read that back or repeat that, 9 please? 10 Q Would you agree that Solutia should work 11 with others to resolve problems created by past 12 handling and disposal of hazardous substances? 13 MR. COX: He's asking if you agree with that 14 statement. If those problems were directly created by 15 or caused by Solutia, but not just problems in the 16 world? 17 Q Right. Problems that Solutia is responsible 18 for causing. 19 A That's what--1 don't think we said that, 20 did we? 21 22 (Plaintiffs Exhibit Number 10 was marked for 23 identification.) BAIN & ASSOCIATES 258 1Q I'm going to show you Plaintiffs Exhibit 10 2 which is a document I pulled off the Internet entitled 3 Responsible Care. And at the top it says Solutia is a 4 member of this association you talked about, right? 5A Correct. 6Q Now, in this document it says that we -- and DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032992 7 that's Solutia, correct? It's a Solutia document. 8 It's using the word "we". I imagine it's Solutia. 9A It appears to be, that's correct. 10 Q It says, "We pledge to manage our business 11 according to these principles." Did I read that 12 correctly? 13 A Yes, you did. 14 Q And then it says, "To work with others to 15 resolve problems created by past handling and disposal 16 of hazardous substances." Did I read that correctly? 17 A Yeah. It appears that that's the eighth 18 bullet point down, to work with others to resolve 19 problems created by past handling and disposal of 20 hazardous substances. 21 Q And it doesn't limit that commitment to 22 problems that Solutia caused, does it? 23 A I think in the context here it did talk BAIN & ASSOCIATES 259 1 about resolved problems created by past handling and 2 disposal of hazardous substances, past handling and 3 disposal. So, I would interpret that to be on the 4 part of Solutia. 5Q Right. Would that include PCBs being 6 allowed into a water system traveling down creeks and 7 getting into lakes, sediment, fish? 8A I don't know whether that would include DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032993 9 that or not. 10 Q What do you think? In your opinion, should 11 it include that? 12 A To resolve problems created by past handling 13 and disposal of hazardous substances. And your 14 question was? 15 Q Does that include PCBs being dumped out into 16 the system that we're suing y'all over? When I say 17 "we," my plaintiffs. 18 A If we had PCBs that were in fact contributed 19 by Monsanto that did result in a problem, then it 20 appears that that statement would be applicable. 21 Q Well, do you consider it a problem that 22 Choccolocco Creek and parts of Lake Logan Martin have 23 fish advisories up and down that system because of PCB BAIN & ASSOCIATES 260 1 contamination? Would that be the type of problem that 2 you would consider to fit within this definition? 3A Personally I would not consider that a 4 problem when I read this. 5 Q Why is that? 6 A Resolve problems created. 7Q It isn't natural for fish advisories to be 8 posted -- 9 A I don't really know -- DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032994 10 Q Let me finish my question. 11 MR. COX: Wait. Let him finish the 12 question. 13 Q If s not natural for fish advisories to be 14 posted on healthy streams and lake systems, is it? 15 A I don't know. I'm not really familiar with 16 health advisories and the criteria used to establish 17 them or post them along riverways. 18 Q All right. If Monsanto is responsible for 19 those fish advisories, that's something you want to 20 know, isn't it? 21 A When you say responsible for the fish 22 advisories, you mean -- 23 Q Right. There are fish advisories all over BAIN & ASSOCIATES 261 1 this system, Mr. Eley. You're aware of that. 2A No, I don't know the extent of the fish 3 advisories all over the system. 4Q Well, just assume for me that there are fish 5 advisories for the entire length of Choccolocco Creek 6 and over a large portion of Lake Logan Martin. Assume 7 that to be the case. 8A Okay. 9Q Don't you want to know if Monsanto is a 10 party responsible for those fish advisories being 11 posted? First of all, you don't even know that, do DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032995 12 you? 13 A That's correct. 14 Q You have no idea as Solutia's 15 environmental -- manager of environmental affairs 16 whether it's responsible for the necessity of having 17 fish advisories posted on Choccolocco Creek and parts 18 of Lake Logan Martin, true? 19 A That's correct. 20 Q Is that your definition of taking a 21 leadership role in caring for this environment? 22 A Given my responsibility in this particular 23 project, I see no reason to assume that it's not a BAIN & ASSOCIATES 262 1 leadership role. 2Q In other words, somebody else at Solutia can 3 handle those problems, not you? 4A No. In other words, my responsibilities on 5 the remediation projects at Anniston, as I've 6 discussed earlier, have generally surrounded project 7 work there at the plant or adjacent to the plant and 8 have not included any work or any involvement on 9 Choccolocco Creek or Lake Logan Martin. 10 Q Let's go back to Plaintiff s Exhibit 9. The 11 third topic down says, we, being Solutia, will keep 12 our operations open to communities and foster open DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032996 13 communications with all of our stakeholders, right? 14 A That's what that statement says. 15 Q Now, assume for me that your company 16 conspired or agreed with the Alabama Department of 17 Environmental Management to keep the PCB contamination 18 issue in this area a secret from the local community 19 people. Would that be inconsistent with that policy 20 of -- the open door policy right there that I just 21 read? 22 MR. COX: Object to the form. You can 23 answer that. BAIN & ASSOCIATES 263 1A If we did what? 2Q If you convinced the State of Alabama not -- 3 that neither Monsanto, nor you, nor the state should 4 disclose these problems of PCB contamination to the 5 community, would that be consistent or inconsistent 6 with this policy of keeping an open flow of 7 communication? 8 MR. COX: Same objection. 9Q It's a simple question. 10 A It was a hypothetical, though, wasn't it? 11 Q Sure, it's a hypothetical. 12 A Hypotheticals are not real simple. 13 Q Well, it's not really -- it's not a 14 hypothetical. I'm asking you to assume the facts to DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032997 15 be true. 16 A But that is hypothetical. 17 MR. COX: Don't argue with him or we'll be 18 here until midnight. 19 THE WITNESS: Okay. 20 MR. GRAMMAS: I'm not the one who is 21 arguing, Buddy. 22 MR. COX: I'm instructing Bruce not to argue 23 with you. BAIN & ASSOCIATES 264 1 MR. GRAMMAS: That's a good instruction. 2 MR. COX: Just answer the question the best 3 you can, Bruce. 4Q I mean, come on, Mr. Eley. The bottom -- I 5 mean, it's a simple question. If you work for a 6 company that had a policy to keep an open door to its 7 customers, its neighbors, its community about 8 information, wouldn't it be inconsistent with that 9 policy if secretively y'all were meeting with state 10 agencies that said hey, let's don't tell these people 11 about PCB contamination? 12 A And never tell the people about PCB 13 contamination? 14 Q Right. 15 A Then I would think that would be DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032998 16 inconsistent with the policy or the particular 17 commitment stated here. 18 Q Would it bother you to work for a company 19 that felt like the course of action to take when it 20 learned that there may be a PCB contamination problem 21 that it's responsible for is to keep that a secret 22 from the community? Would that bother you to work for 23 a company like that? BAIN & ASSOCIATES 265 1 MR. COX: Same objection. 2A I guess it depends upon -- under the context 3 that we decided to keep a secret from the community 4 and if they were never going to tell the community, I 5 think that would be inconsistent with how I think a 6 community would operate in 1998 under these 7 commitments. 8Q I didn't say anything about commitments, 9 time frames. I didn't mention any of that stuff. I 10 just want to know from a common sense answer, from 11 your own sense of morality, your own personal sense of 12 right and wrong. That's what I want to know, Mr. 13 Eley. Would it bother you to work for a company that 14 at any time in the past, present or in the future 15 would try to agree with the state agency to conceal 16 PCB contamination of a particular site from the people 17 who may be affected by it? DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0032999 18 A I think I would have to know a little bit 19 more information under -- for example, the context of 20 this scenario and exactly what happened. 21 Q What they don't know won't hurt them. Is 22 that what I'm hearing you say? 23 A No, not at all. BAIN & ASSOCIATES 266 1Q Well, I mean, why should you be the one who 2 decides what these people know and don't know? Why 3 not have an open door policy to let it all out, to say 4 hey, there is PCB contamination here? We don't think 5 it's a problem, but we won't y'all to know about it 6 and you can hire your own experts or you can do 7 whatever you want to do to satisfy yourself whether 8 it's a problem or not. What's wrong with that policy? 9A That sounds like a perfectly good policy. 10 Q Doesn't that sound like a better policy than 11 to have a bunch of people sitting around in a board 12 meeting saying hey, this could really hurt us if this 13 gets out, we don't want people in the community to 14 know that we've contaminated property with PCBs, 15 let's enter into an agreement with the State of 16 Alabama to keep it a secret from them, to conceal 17 these facts from them so there won't be widespread 18 panic among the community? Doesn't the first one DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0033000 19 sound like a better policy than the second one? 20 A I guess the way that you've outlined that 21 scenario, the first situation sounds like it's more 22 consistent with the commitment I just read. 23 Q I'm not talking about that commitment. BAIN & ASSOCIATES 267 1 Doesn't that make better policy? 2 MR. COX: He's asking you for your personal 3 opinion about which is the better policy. 4 MR. GRAMMAS: Exactly. 5Q Full disclosure or active concealment? 6 What's a better policy regardless of the effects? 7A Oh, I think given that, I think full 8 disclosure. 9Q Right. And that's because Monsanto doesn't 10 have the right to substitute its judgment regarding 11 PCB contamination with that of the people it's -- the 12 property it's contaminating, does it? 13 A Are you asking me-- 14 Q Yes, I am. 15 A -- the -- what Monsanto -- excuse me. 16 You're going to have to ask that again. 17 Q Monsanto should not in your opinion 18 substitute its judgment about the dangers of PCB 19 contamination and exposure on property that it doesn't 20 own for that of the judgments of those persons who own DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0033001 21 that property? 22 A No. I think in that context Monsanto or any 23 chemical operation would work with the state and local BAIN & ASSOCIATES 268 1 authorities in dealing with those types of community 2 issues. 3Q Tell me a scenario in your mind, Mr. Eley, 4 that would justify Monsanto conspiring or agreeing 5 with the State of Alabama to conceal the fact that it 6 may have been responsible for PCB contamination in 7 this eco system in Anniston, Alabama. 8A There's no particular scenario that comes to 9 mind right now. 10 Q And no matter how you characterize that, it 11 would be wrong in your opinion, it would be immoral to 12 do that? 13 A I didn't say that. 14 Q I'm asking you. 15 MR. COX: Pete, that's -- 16 A I don't really have an opinion one way or 17 the other just on the basis of what you've said. 18 Q You could care less one way or the other 19 whether you work for a company or worked for a company 20 when you were employed with Monsanto that had an 21 agreement with the State of Alabama back in the early DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0033002 22 70s to keep PCB contamination a secret from the 23 neighbors and the community around the Anniston BAIN & ASSOCIATES 269 1 plant? You don't care one way or the other about 2 that. Is that what I'm hearing you say? 3 MR. COX: Object to the form. 4A At this stage -- or the way that you've just 5 characterized it, do I -- I'm not so sure that I've 6 got an opinion one way or the other as we sit here 7 right now. 8Q Well, I'm asking you for your opinion. 9 MR. COX: He doesn't have to have an 10 opinion. 11 Q And you might not. If you don't have one, 12 that's fine. 13 A I don't. 14 Q Does it bother you that Monsanto did that? 15 MR. COX: Object to the form. 16 A Again, are we talking a hypothetical? 17 Q No. 18 MR. COX: He's asking you to assume they did 19 that, I think. 20 Q Does it bother you -- 21 A Is that an assumption? 22 Q Yeah. If s an assumption that has been 23 submitted as evidence in other cases and it is DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0033003 BAIN & ASSOCIATES 270 1 undisputed by Monsanto. 2 MR. COX: Well, that's not true exactly. 3 MR. GRAMMAS: Well, it is true, Buddy, and 4 you know that Monsanto had an agreement with the State 5 of Alabama to keep this problem a secret. And we can 6 sit here and pretend like it's an assumption and -- 7 MR. COX: You can ask him -- 8 MR. GRAMMAS: -- facts aren't in evidence 9 and all that kind ofjunk. 10 Q (By Mr. Grammas) The bottom line is your 11 company, sir, had an agreement with the State of 12 Alabama to keep this issue a secret in order to avoid 13 what they perceived to be a potential panic so they 14 say in the area. Now, what I'm asking you is do you 15 agree with that decision? 16 A I think I would have to have a little bit 17 more information than what you've just described to 18 tell you how I feel about that particular situation. 19 Q Well, based on the information that I have 20 provided you, tell me how you feel about that. 21 A Based on the information that you have 22 provided, I really have no opinion one way or the 23 other. BAIN & ASSOCIATES DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0033004 271 1Q You don't think you're any smarter than the 2 people who live around the plant, do you? 3 A No, not at all. 4Q And you don't think that Monsanto had any 5 more information as far as potential health effects 6 about PCBs, do you? 7 A Than whom? 8Q Than anybody in the world. Monsanto didn't 9 know anything more about PCB contamination exposure 10 issues than anybody, did they? Is that what you're 11 telling me? 12 A That Monsanto didn't know more about PCBs 13 than anyone else in the world? 14 Q Right, than the average person walking 15 around on the street. 16 A Oh, I think that in general the manufacturer 17 of the product has more knowledge than a lot of other 18 people. 19 Q Right. Exactly. Y'all knew in 1950 that 20 PCBs were toxic to human beings, didn't you? 21 A I believe that we saw a document earlier in 22 1955 that stated that that was authored by Emmet 23 Kelly. So, on the basis of that, I would say that BAIN & ASSOCIATES 272 DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0033005 1 Emmet Kelly was aware of that in 1955. 2Q And Dr. Kelly was a medical doctor who was 3 employed by Monsanto at that time, right? 4 A That's correct. 5Q And he was writing that letter on behalf of 6 Monsanto Chemical Company, right? 7 A Correct. 8Q He certainly knew more about the dangers of 9 PCBs than the people around the plant, didn't he? 10 A I presume that Dr. Kelly knew more about the 11 effects of Aroclors in people in general and knew more 12 about chemicals in general and our plant operations. 13 Q And if s your position that despite that 14 superior knowledge, y'all didn't have any obligation, 15 moral or otherwise, to tell these people when y'all 16 learned that PCBs were leaving your plant and getting 17 on their property that they may have health effects 18 related to this exposure? 19 A Well, I'm not aware of number one, what 20 people we're talking about and number two, the 21 specific scenario or release of PCBs. I have no 22 knowledge of that. 23 Q Let me ask you this, Mr. Eley: If Monsanto BAIN & ASSOCIATES 273 1 is found to have been a substantial or partial 2 contributor of PCBs in Choccolocco Creek, Snow Creek DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0033006 3 and Lake Logan Martin and is also responsible for the 4 fish advisories that are posted along those creeks, is 5 it your position that Solutia now should remove the 6 PCBs in this system to a level where at least the fish 7 advisories can be removed? 8A No. It's my opinion right now that given 9 that scenario Solutia ought to be working actively 10 with the Department of Environmental Management and 11 the Department of Health to determine what actions may 12 be necessary. 13 Q Well, let's assume again that Monsanto is a 14 substantial or partial contributor to the PCBs and is 15 also substantially or partially responsible for the 16 fish advisories that are posted on these bodies of 17 waters. Okay? 18 A Okay. 19 Q And the Alabama Department of Environmental 20 Management says it doesn't matter, we're not going to 21 make y'all clean up anything, we're not going to ask 22 you to clean up anything, do whatever you want, 23 Solutia. Assume those things. BAIN & ASSOCIATES 274 1 Is it your position that the PCBs should or 2 should not be removed from that system to at least get 3 it to a level where the fish advisories can be DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0033007 4 removed? 5A I frankly at this stage have no position one 6 way or another. I've got very little knowledge of the 7 fish advisories, nor the level, concentration of PCBs 8 in those particular water bodies you talked about. 9Q I understand all that. 10 A Therefore, given that, I hate to come out 11 with a particular position. 12 Q I'm going to ask you to assume certain 13 things and I'm going to ask you to come out with a 14 position. 15 MR. COX: If you can. 16 A If I can. 17 Q Well, you certainly can. I mean, you-- 18 MR. COX: Well, it depends on what you ask 19 him, but go ahead. 20 Q Assume Monsanto -- if you want to write 21 these down, we can. Assume Monsanto is responsible 22 part for PCBs in Snow, Choccolocco Creeks and Lake 23 Logan Martin. Assumption number one. BAIN & ASSOCIATES 275 1A Okay. 2Q Assume that those levels, the PCB levels are 3 high enough in this eco system that fish advisories 4 must be posted because the levels of PCBs in the fish 5 exceed EPA standards. DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] 6 A The levels of PCB are high enough in what, 7 the soil or sediment? 8Q In the fish. 9 A Oh, in the fish. 10 Q In the fish. That the Alabama Department of 11 Public Health puts a fish advisory on these bodies of 12 water and says don't eat the fish because of PCB 13 contamination in the soil. Okay? Are you with me? 14 A They say don't eat the fish because of the 15 PCBs in the soil? 16 Q Right. That's how it works. You dump PCBs 17 in the soil, it gets in the food chain, the fish eat 18 what's in the soil and it bioaccumulates in them. 19 People come and throw hooks in, pull the fish out, 20 they eat them and it bioaccumulates in them. That's 21 how this whole process works. You certainly 22 understand that after working with this company for 30 23 years, don't you? BAIN & ASSOCIATES 276 1A Okay. It was just a point of trying to 2 clarify specifically what you said when you said 3 soil. I usually think of sediment. If we're talking 4 about soil in a ditch, it's called sediment. 5Q Whatever you want to call it, Mr. Eley, and 6 if we would stop mixing words, splitting hairs, this DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0033009 7 process would go a lot faster. 8A I realize that. I just wanted to assure 9 myself that what I respond to is done accurately. 10 Q Okay. Fair enough. Let's go through it 11 again because I want the record to be clean on this. 12 Assume for me Monsanto is in part 13 responsible for PCB contamination in Choccolocco 14 Creek, Snow Creekand Lake Logan Martin. Okay? 15 A Okay. 16 Q Assume for me that that contamination is 17 causing fish levels -- PCB levels in fish to exceed 18 EPA recommendations which in turn caused the Alabama 19 Department of Public Health to post fish advisories on 20 this system. 21 A Okay. 22 Q And assume for me that Monsanto negotiates 23 with ADEM about what to do on this system and ADEM BAIN & ASSOCIATES 277 1 refuses or fails to take any position one way or the 2 other. 3 MR. COX: So they take no position that -- 4 no action is appropriate and they take no position 5 that certain actions are appropriate? 6 MR. GRAMMAS: Right. 7 MR. COX: Is that right? 8 MR. GRAMMAS: Right. DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0033010 9 Q They just take no position. They don't say 10 anything. 11 A But they do take a position that certain 12 actions are -- 13 Q No. They don't do anything. 14 MR. COX: They don't take any position one 15 way or the other. 16 A One way or the other. 17 MR. COX: They don't take the position that 18 action is necessary or that action is not necessary. 19 MR. GRAMMAS: Right. 20 A And I guess you would assume then -- 21 MR. COX: No. Let him finish his question 22 now. 23 Q Based on those assumptions, sir, do you BAIN & ASSOCIATES 278 1 believe that Monsanto should remove the PCBs in this 2 system and reduce it to a level where the fish 3 advisory is removed? 4 MR. COX: I'll object to the form, but you 5 can answer, if you can. 6A When -- under that assumption that ADEM has 7 said that nothing is necessary -- 8 MR. COX: No. They haven't said that. I 9 think you're misunderstanding the question. DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0033011 10 Q ADEM- 11 A Isn't that the assumption? 12 Q No. 13 A Didn't you -- 14 MR. COX: No. ADEM doesn't take a position 15 one way or the other. That's the third assumption in 16 his hypothetical. They don't say anything one way or 17 the other regarding what, if anything, is necessary or 18 what, if anything, is not necessary in the water 19 bodies. Is that -- 20 MR. GRAMMAS: That's correct. 21 Q They don't say anything. 22 MR. COX: Make sure you understand that 23 part. They just don't take a position one way or the BAIN & ASSOCIATES 279 1 other. 2 A That ADEM is not taking a position? 3Q Their formal position is we're not going to 4 take a position. 5A Okay. And then the fish advisories in this 6 case are set by, I believe, the Alabama Department of 7 Public Health? What is their position? 8Q That's not part of the assumption. The fish 9 advisories are still there. 10 A Okay. So that means -- 11 Q Because the PCBs are still there. You see, DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0033012 12 that's how it works. 13 A Okay. 14 Q As long as the PCBs are there, the 15 fish advisories are going to be there, right? 16 MR. COX: Object to the form. 17 A I don't know that. 18 Q You don't know that either. Okay. 19 Whatever. Tell me, sir, should Monsanto, now Solutia, 20 remove the PCBs to a level such that we can take these 21 fish advisories down from our water streams here in 22 Alabama. 23 A I'm afraid I don't know. BAIN & ASSOCIATES 280 1Q Why not? Why don't you know that? You've 2 worked for this company for 30 years. You don't feel 3 any sense of responsibility to the community around 4 you? 5A That's not the issue. I said that I didn't 6 know whether we would do what you just said we would 7 do. And I don't know whether technically it makes any 8 sense because I'm not that knowledgeable of PCBs and 9 waterways, much less those particular systems. 10 Q The beautiful thing about assumptions, Mr. 11 Eley, is you don't have to be. I'm asking you to 12 assume the people who are obviously more knowledgeable DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0033013 13 than you and I on these issues have already found 14 these things to be true. Okay? 15 MR. COX: Well - 16 Q The PCBs in part are being deposited in this 17 body system because of Monsanto, that these levels are 18 causing elevated levels in fish to such a degree that 19 there has to be a fish advisory and that ADEM never 20 does anything and their official position is we're not 21 going to take a position. 22 Is it your position at Solutia based on all 23 of these environmental guidelines and pledges and I BAIN & ASSOCIATES 281 1 pledge allegiance to the flag and I pledge that I'll 2 rectify and all these things y'all do, all these 3 commitments y'all make, all these statements you make 4 to the public about how you've got all these great 5 things going for y'all -- put your money where your 6 mouth is. Is it your position that you should clean 7 up this system so the fish advisories can be removed? 8 MR. COX: Object to the form, but go ahead. 9A And based on the scenarios I've had or that 10 you've just said, I really don't have a position. 11 Q Why is that? What information do you need 12 to have a position? 13 A Because I don't have a position, sir. 14 Q What information do you need to have a DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0033014 15 position on that issue that's not in my hypothetical? 16 A I'm not sure. That's just not in my area of 17 expertise. 18 Q Who is Mr. Cheaver? 19 A Bob Cheaver? 20 Q Who is he? 21 A Bob Cheaver works at the Queeny plant, and 22 I'm not sure exactly what his title is. 23 Q Do you know him? BAIN & ASSOCIATES 282 1A Yes, I know Bob Cheaver. 2Q Do you know him? 3A I know Bob Cheaver. 4Q How long have you known him? 5A I think I may have met Bob Cheaver in the 6 1970s. 7Q Have you maintained contact with him 8 throughout the years? 9A No. 10 Q Is he a friend of yours? 11 A I know him and we see each other perhaps -- 12 I may have seen him a couple of years ago. 13 Q Do you trust his opinions? 14 A I would say generally from what I know about 15 Bob. DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0033015 16 Q Do you find him on what you know about this 17 gentleman to be a man of integrity and honesty? 18 A Based on my knowledge of Mr. Cheaver, yes. 19 Q Now, let me ask you something, Mr. Eley. 20 How can an environmental manager at Monsanto, and now 21 Solutia, not have an opinion on the hypothetical that 22 I just posed to you about whether Monsanto, now 23 Solutia, should clean up the PCBs under those -- under BAIN & ASSOCIATES 283 1 the scenario I posed? 2 MR. COX: Object to the form. 3A Well, I don't have a particular opinion on 4 that because I'm not that knowledgeable of PCBs as I 5 stated earlier. I'm not that knowledgeable of the 6 dynamics of any type of relationship between PCB and 7 soil or sediment as you indicate, fish advisories, 8 Choccolocco Creek or Lake Logan Martin. 9Q And with all of your ignorance that you 10 bring in here today through no fault of your own, just 11 inexperience in the areas, Monsanto chose to send you 12 down here to talk to the people about sampling a 13 chemical that you don't have any knowledge about to 14 speak of, correct? 15 A Sampling PCBs in soil, that's correct. 16 Q And you don't have any knowledge of that. 17 You don't have any experience in that, right? DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0033016 18 A This is the first time I think that I've 19 been involved in sampling of soil containing PCBs. 20 Q You went door to door in your 21 responsibilities here and talked to these people, 22 correct? 23 A Correct. BAIN & ASSOCIATES 284 1Q You knocked on their door and you said hey, 2 I'm Mr. Eley at Monsanto, we would like permission to 3 come on to your property and test your soil, right, 4 words to that effect? 5A Yeah, words to that effect. 6 Q Those people must have said what for, true? 7 A Very few as I recall. 8Q Nobody cared why you were on their 9 property testing their soil? Is that your testimony? 10 A Very few. I can't -- no, very few. 11 Q Well, some of them wanted to know. Some of 12 them were curious enough to want to know why you were 13 down there for Monsanto wanting to dig up their soil 14 and test it, right? 15 A No. I think that people were more of--had 16 more of an interest of what the results would show or 17 am I going to see the results. 18 Q Oh, so they knew you were down there DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0033017 19 checking for PCBs? 20 A People in the community where we did the 21 sampling for the most part that I can recall all knew 22 that we had been sampling for PCBs on our property and 23 along the ditch systems on each side of our property. BAIN & ASSOCIATES 285 1Q And they're sending you to knock on these 2 people's doors, get their permission to sample for 3 PCBs, write them letters regarding the levels of PCBs 4 that were found in their property, correct? 5A That's correct. 6Q And you didn't know anything about PCBs, how 7 it transfers in the environment, how it moves in the 8 environment, what kind of effects it's going to have 9 on people, what kind of effects it's going to have on 10 the eco system, what kind of effects it's going to 11 have on fish or what's necessary to remediate. You 12 don't know anything of those things? 13 A I think as I said earlier, I had a general 14 familiarization with the physical and chemical 15 properties of PCBs. If issues surrounding health or 16 toxic effects came up, then there were I believe three 17 individuals that I could refer those people to for any 18 questions specific to health or toxicity. 19 Q And none of those people worked for 20 Monsanto, did they? Not a single person you're DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0033018 21 referring to, right? One was a doctor in Washington, 22 correct? 23 A That I -- oh, Dr. Kimbrough. BAIN & ASSOCIATES 286 1Q Yeah. You had a script to tell these 2 people, didn't you? And part of the script was if 3 they ask you any questions about PCBs, play ignorant 4 and refer them out to these people. And you had three 5 names to give them, right? 6A No, sir, I did not have a script and the 7 scenario was not portrayed like that at all. 8Q But in any event, when they asked you 9 questions, you didn't have the experience to answer 10 them, right? That's why you referred it out, correct? 11 A Unless there were certain questions 12 regarding the issues like solubility or volatility of 13 PCB. 14 Q But if there were questions about hey, is 15 this stuff bad for me as a person, you were not 16 qualified to answer that? 17 A Certainly not. Not being a physician, I 18 would never try to deal with those issues. 19 Q Well, all of the people that were on that 20 list of referrals, these three people, only one of 21 them was a medical doctor, isn't that right? DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0033019 22 A That's correct. And where I had questions 23 specific to the human health effects of PCB, I would BAIN & ASSOCIATES 287 1 generally refer those to the physician or to the State 2 Department of Public Health, Brian Hughes. Dr. Hughes 3 I believe also used a consultant -- I can't remember 4 his name -- that was affiliated with the Environmental 5 Health or Occupational Health Department at UAB. 6Q Did you give them a telephone number to 7 call? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Was it a 1-800 number? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Do you have that number today somewhere, 12 those numbers? 13 A I may have those numbers. 14 Q Could you -- 15 A I have not got those numbers with me. 16 MR. COX: I think we produced you the piece 17 of paper that Bruce used. 18 Q You also handed them a brochure when you 19 were out there talking to them, didn't you? 20 A There were a number of people I handed out a 21 brochure to, a blue bulletin. 22 Q And none of those brochures said anything 23 about PCB contamination, problems with PCBs or DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0033020 BAIN & ASSOCIATES 288 1 anything like that, right? 2A No. I think those were general information 3 brochures or bulletins on the current Anniston 4 Monsanto site, products it manufactured. 5Q Now, just so I understand your testimony 6 correctly, when issues were asked of you that related 7 to personal human health effects, you felt those 8 questions should have been referred to this medical 9 doctor in Washington? 10 A No. I believe that if you're talking about 11 the health effects in humans, then there was a 12 physician at UAB, a Dr. Forrester, I believe his name 13 was. 14 Q A medical doctor? 15 A Yeah, he's a medical doctor. 16 Q I misunderstood you. There was also a 17 medical doctor that you referred these questions to 18 out of Washington? 19 A No. That was a Ph.D., Dr. Kimbrough. 20 Q Okay. You did not refer those types of 21 personal injury -- you know, a human exposure harm 22 type question to the Ph.D.'s. You referred those 23 directly to the medical doctor here at UAB, right? BAIN & ASSOCIATES DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0033021 289 1A That's correct. Either to the medical 2 director at UAB or through the director of toxicology 3 and epidemiology, a Dr. Brian Hughes. Because it was 4 my understanding that Dr. Hughes also used a Dr. 5 Mueller or someone affiliated to handle those kinds of 6 issues. 7Q But you felt that the only people that were 8 really qualified to answer these health -- human 9 health effect issues would have been these medical 10 doctors? 11 A That's the way that I handled those 12 referrals, that's correct. 13 Q Did you do that on your own or were you 14 instructed to do that by someone? 15 A I think I did that. 16 Q Common sense told you that if it dealt with 17 personal injury type questions, personal harm type 18 questions, you needed to be talking to a physician, a 19 medical doctor as opposed to a Ph.D.? 20 A That's the way that I went about referring 21 those. 22 Q Let me ask you this: I'm going to--1 23 guess it's just stapled this way, sir, and I don't BAIN & ASSOCIATES 290 DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0033022 1 think there is any particular reason why it is. I'm 2 going to show you a collective exhibit here. They're 3 in no particular order. We'll call it Exhibit 11. 4 5 (Plaintiffs Exhibit Number 11 was marked for 6 identification.) 7Q It is what appears to be a collection of 8 letters all signed by you to various people whose 9 property you sampled and then wrote letters to about 10 your conclusions -- the company's conclusions on 11 PCBs. Is that in fact what that is? 12 A That's correct. 13 Q Does that appear to be a complete list of 14 the letters -- and I'm not going to hold you to it. 15 There may be one or two missing. The only reason I 16 ask you, is that the approximate number of people you 17 wrote to? 18 A I believe so. 19 Q And there may be one or two that aren't in 20 there. 21 A There might be. 22 Q There may be even more than that, but I'm 23 just -- okay. I think you've answered my question. BAIN & ASSOCIATES 291 1 Let me ask you this: Who at Solutia has 2 final authority to approve remediation cleanup issues DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0033023 3 at Choccolocco Creek and Lake Logan Martin? 4A In terms of exactly what actions or monies 5 or anything of that sort, I would expect that that 6 would be Mike Foresman and Mike Pierle. 7Q Collectively, individually, how does that 8 work? 9A Well, I would think that it would be kind of 10 a collaborative effort. 11 Q Do they have to go to the board of 12 directors or anything like that? 13 A I don't know exactly what the protocol is. 14 I think it would depend upon the authorization 15 request, request for monies. I'm not sure exactly 16 what they've set up. 17 Q Have they set up anything like this for the 18 Anniston plant to your knowledge? 19 A Not to my knowledge. 20 Q Is that because they don't plan on doing any 21 remediation work at Choccolocco Creek and Lake Logan 22 Martin to your knowledge? 23 A No. It's just because I wouldn't be aware BAIN & ASSOCIATES 292 1 of it. 2Q Can you think of any other individuals who 3 would have final authority to approve a DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0033024 4 remediation/cleanup of this area? 5A No. I think it would be those two 6 individuals that I mentioned. 7 MR. GRAMMAS: Thank you, sir. 8 (END OF DEPOSITION) 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 BAIN & ASSOCIATES 293 1 CERTIFICATE 2 3 STATE OF ALABAMA ) 4 JEFFERSON COUNTY ) 5 DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0033025 6 I hereby certify that the above and 7 foregoing deposition was taken down by me in 8 stenotype, and the questions and answers thereto were 9 reduced to computer print under my supervision, and 10 that the foregoing represents a true and correct 11 transcript of the deposition given by said witness 12 upon said hearing. 13 14 I further certify that I am neither of 15 counsel nor of kin to the parties to the action, nor 16 am I in anywise interested in the result of said 17 cause. 18 19 20 ____________________________________ 21 Dana Gordon, Commissioner 22 23 BAIN & ASSOCIATES 294 1 SIGNATURE OF WITNESS 2 3 I,, do hereby 4 certify that on thisday of 5 1998,1 have read the foregoing 6 transcript and to the best of my knowledge it DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0033026 7 constitutes a true and accurate transcript of my 8 testimony taken by oral deposition on September 10th, 9 1998. 10 11 12 WITNESS 13 14 15 Subscribed and sworn to 16 before me this 17 day of, 18 1998. 19 20 21 22 NOTARY PUBLIC 23 DG BAIN & ASSOCIATES 295 1 ERRATA SHEET 2 PAGE LINE CORRECTION 3 4 5 6 7 8 DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] REASON HARTOLDMON0033027 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 DG 23 BAIN & ASSOCIATES DYER 09-10-1998 Eley, Bruce.txt[8/22/2017 2:36:34 PM] HARTOLDMON0033028