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FILE NAME: Koppers/Beazer East (KBE) DATE: 1956 DOC#: KBE028 DOCUMENT DESCRIPTION: IHF 21st Annual Meeting - Transactions Bulletin Health Problems Involved in the Manufacture, Sale, and Use of Toxic Materials 2Ut ANNUAL MEETING INDUSTRIAL HYGIENE FOUNDATION INDUSTRIAL HYGIENE FOUNDATION OF AMERICA MELLON INSTITUTE 4400 FIFTH AVENUE \rering questions, on health problems involved in the manufacture, sale and use of toxic materials at Joint iV h m e a r Conference were leading authorities on various aspects. Panel participants are, left to right: Dr. L. C. v.;i,cv. Medical Director, Hercules Powder Company; Dr. P. W. Bachman, Vice President and Director of Research Development. Hoppers Company, Inc.; H. S. Baile, Deputy General Manager and General Counsel of General , z*ni. Fire and Life Assurance. Corporation, Ltd.; C. R. Ovialt. Legal Department, Union Carbide and Carbon - - - '-non, Dr. John A. Zapp, Jr., Director, Haskell Laboratory for Toxicology and Industrial Medicine, E. I. . - - e \emour* & Company, Inc.; Theodore Hatch, University of Pittsburgh Graduate School of Public Health, \dMvr to the Foundation; and V. P. 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CCO Z m -i 1 m contribution^ to be made. The panel participants met this morning to look over the questions and to discuss the program. After the recess, at 3:30, we propose to give priority to questions asked from the floor rather than to the written-out questions We hope that there will be floor discussion even if we haven't answered ah the written questions, because we want to establish the town hall atmosphere and to give each of you an opportunity to ask a question, to make a contribution, to challenge a member of tiie panel, or do any thing else that your democratic mstinct suggests you do The first question which 1 am going to ask the panel is ` ` How does one define `health problems'? What is meant by ` toxic ma terial'^' ' 1 am going to ask Dr. McGee to answer that question DR. M cG E E In a broad sense, one might say that any deviation from optimum physical, mental, and social well-being is a health problem. That definition of health as the optimum state of mental, physical and social adjustment has been batted about for a number of years 1 behe\e for the purpose of this afternoon's contribution, how ever. the health problems involved should be limited to those devia tions from optimum health which occur as a result of an exposure in manufacturing, sale and use of something which is called ` toxic material." As the title is stated, of course, any deviation in health of a worker would react on his work in output, and so forth, in a broad sense But 1 believe the meaning here is m a more limited sense of those deviations from the optimum physical, mental, and social ad justments which result from the contact with this thing called "` toxic material." Passing then to the second part of the question, ` "What is toxic material?" we are in trouble immediately I find very few people, outside of those who are concerned with deleterious substances as they affect man. who have a concept of the large range jn deg ice and character of toxicity. It is a word which means what anybody wauls it to mean Un fortu nately/to substitute foi "toxic," ` ` poisonous," ` dele tenons or what nave you, gets us no place if -so happens Mint every thing* with which man is in contact can he 1roublesomr and " Io\ m*" if lie gets too much Those Ihings that wo consult*! essential fo idr. including food, vitamins, minerals, and u.ilei. can in- " to\ie (<> m.tn I believe Dr !lem\ Sim lli. dt . defined *!o\ic" stmplv as .t m i f l . r (1 too much It we Keep that in mind we will n-nlt/r then Ilia I we enmiof rtiemnscniie a n-n.im gtntip id mil tods and o\ llic .nv to\ir ollu'is ,itr mil Io\lc I intis! .idnri md |>'**ahi\ Ih ^*i ||. <,tnI I :t.h | help u.s heir, that, for purposes of orientation* we must have .some arbitrary definition of what is toxic DR. Z A E P I can only express my agreement with the remark that Di McGee has made The term i :toxic m a t e r i a l i s subject to vmy many interpretations by different people. The great difficulty that, ve have in talking about them and in drawing up laws and pec (`(`dures to govern the use of toxic material revolves about tin* deli mtum of toxic material. D r. M cGee was quoting to you just a few moments ago from the report of the Council of Toxicology of The Am erican Medical Association, m which are reviewed the various definitions of poison. (The Council found that there was no uniform ity.) A s a matter of fact, it states that there is no uniformity of legal or scientific opinion as to what constitutes a poison. And then, since a precise definition that would fit ail cim im stances is not possible, the Committee felt that any substance that when im properly used may produce harm by chemical action, should be provided with an appropriate cautionary label or statement. h cetera So. here, we have not only difficulty in defining what \\r mean hv toxic m aterial, but also a concern on the part of this group for warning o f the consequences of misuse 1 think what we rcali\ mean to talk about Giis afternoon is more properly defined as hazards. that is, the probability that an inju ry will occur in the itum uiaeiiitv. salt or use of those materials. M O D E R A T O R A H E A R N Thank you very timdr Dr Zi.pp Now, \ move on to the second question, unless at ibis stage a membn of the panel wishes to add something to what these two gentlemen have already said. You football men will notice i am playing a seven man lineup on (his platform . I am going to ask my right tackle, Dr Rm-imutn, tins question ' ` Do you think there is any basic difference in m IHv as applied to people in research and development in rom pam m i with people iiivo!\rd in regular product ion operations?*' DiC Ma ( i i M A N i Ui m K III is quest ion in the \wh\ \ilnee i i'|V| a t" an apptoarh to safety In tliat respect, I uii! <I*\ to pass an "putiqfp I think thcie ts a considerable difference m the salVf^ flint *t||n ncoimlcjs (ii (hi* IaImii'.i t<>iy and that winch one enromiU'tf m the plaid lu a plant ni flic rcgulat production npri.it ion, it m postal*)*1 I"i the i'ii'mik re, in break a >i occss dm\ n into many compom ut purl a ml !inf\ the, pa i I\ Imm Ihr point oi view o[' -aFeI\ , thr d dl ei rid "I " d mu < m tu :**i<(f11a11' \ >uic>'ini d> d I think their r. imt C l v much difficulty m this, and it is rather rarely that we have accidents of any significant nature in processes that are continually operating in a repetitive manner. I think that is rather easy to control, and it is more feasible to train the operators in safety measures. Now, in contrast with 111at is a research laboratory. The men in the laboiatory are frequently working m unexplored and unknown areas They may or may not, and probably will not, know the toxico logical or hazardous explosive properties of the materials with whieh they are working or of the materials which might lie formed as a result of their researches. So, here, you have only a few of the general rules of safety that apply. I think a great deal of it in the case of the research man depends entirely upon him I think his approach to it must be one of safety consciousness. I think he has to really live safely and to be effective this has to be a part of his background, a part of his disposition. M O D E R A T O R AFTEARN* Thank you, Dr. Bachman. Now, Mr Hatch MR. H A T C H : I certainly agree with everything he said except the second point, attitude. Certainly, it is true that the people who are doing the basic research and development work should incorporate into their day-to-day thinking the needs with respect to safety to a greater degree than people out on the production line However, it has been my experience, and i am sun1many of the rest of us here have had the same expose nee, that very often we find it just the other way around The man who is doing research is so wrapped up in his research objective that he is inclined not to give very much considera tion io Niese other matters. I can recall visiting laboratories where, for example, they were using such a well-known agent as benzol and were slopping it around like water. At the same time, they might be quite concerned over the toxicity of the new and exciting material that they are developing So, T am sure it is important to make sure that in the course of re search and development, these questions are constantly raised, but 1 don't think we can rightly assume that the research people are always going K; ruiSv them. M O D E R A T O R A H E A R N . T h a n k you. Ted. 1 waul Io remind lh<* panel thaf other coni n b u f ions are a 1w a v s weleomed [M|\ B A I E E M a y i mterjert one comment 7 T he ver\ ihstinr 1,011 that hot h *oint himon have mad* bet ween the research n|rat ton ami production o p e i a t mu sugg<*sts the desirability oi a s l bddl y dd ietvid approach to (ho snlel\ p i o g i a m with respect fo o| >ei a tion In the production operation, you are dealing with guarding against 1 ho individual, isolated accidents m the course of production, whereas. 41 the research operation, you are concerned with the catastrophe prob lem. Therefore, your program in that respect should be designed to provide for the type of action required in the event those onfus trophes occur. M O D E R A T O R A H E A R N Thank you very much, Mr. Haile. The next question gives us a chance to break out our legal talent up here " Does not the obligation of the insured under a Products Ida bility Policy, particularly his agreement not to settle with a claimant nor to admit liability, interfere with a manufacturer's relations with his customers and with the public?" Mr Bade, you can be the first one to answer that question. M R B A lL E I believe the simple answer to the question is that it should not. I think at the same time you have to recognize Ilui 1 there is an apprehension on the part of some people that it does. In order that it shall not interfere with customer and public relatimix, I think it is of utmost importance that there be understanding on the part of both the insurer and the insured, and also that there be (he utmost cooperation between the two. The basic understanding that has to exist is to recognize1the dir. tmetion between customer complaints on one hand and Haims cm (be other. Customer complaints must be a concern of the insured. Hie manufacturer himself He must be free to deal with customer emu plaints as you deal in business relations, without necessarily hemp concerned with the legal basis of the claim or the legal possibilities that might arise out of your action On the other hand, it is most important on the pari o f die m surer to recognize that the insured must be free to act in that win that he must be free to deal with a customer 111 order that In* will have a satisfied customer. Since that is the in lores! of ihe m a nu fite furor, he can't restrain that action m order to protect his legal pool lion The interest of the insurer and the insured imisl be reeugiiized as an identical interest. They are noi two parlies: they arc one parly serving orie aspeei ot file insured's business, which is Ins relation to the customers insofar as they are aflTeeted by his products I h o pe i d o n ' t s o u n d i d e a l i s i n' s p e a k i n g .is an m s n m i n - r mi n i 011 t hat s u h j e e t , b e c a u s e 1 t h i n k it is i he a e t u a l p r a e f u w H* <-\er\ e mu paii\ (d s t a n d i n g to e p e i a l e oj the h a n d l i n g <d p r u d m to I n d n h t v * b u m s m p i c , 1st *Iv t h at u. i \ M 1 ! :x d o n c hai w a y . t h en tin rv m in* i n (('t*r< i cnec wi t h t km < m n p a n s i M. t! nm* wi t h f 11r pi tl i l h I ho ` !J ! (Ulti * ^ MODERATOR AHEARN comment ? Thank you Dr Zapp, will you DR. Z A P P Well, I can't speak on this topic as a lawyer or as an insurance man. It does seem to me that there are two separate concepts involved in this question. One concerns the mechanism of settling claims which presume that there has been an injury for which the plaintiff seeks to recover damages The other part concerns the relations of the man ufacturer with his customers and with the public Now, it seems to me that the manufacturer has a very definite responsibility to his customers and to the public, and that is to point out to them how his product can be used with safety. Nothing can interfere with that responsibility on the part of the manufacturer. If. however, a claim armes which suggests either that the manufac turer's statements were inadequate or in error, then you have this question of deciding about liability, which 1 feel is a separate matter M O D E R A T O R A H E A R N : Thank you, Dr. Zapp. The next ques tion is, " What information respecting physical and chemical prop erties and toxicological properties of the material does the industrial hvgienist need in order to develop the hazard control program?7' Mr. Hatch MR. H A T C H The answer to this question is very easy You get all that is available There is one very important aspect of this ques tion as to what information concerning physical and chemical and toxicological properties that the industrial hygienist needs. The im plication is that there is information with respect to the toxicological properties of the substance obviously essential to an understanding of the hazard That doesn 7t tell the whole story, however There must be added to this question, what information does he need also with respect to the way m which the process operates m which this toxic substance is to be used? It is important for us to keep in mind that there is a very real difference in toxicity and hazard Here is where the physical and chemical proper+i^ woll as the toxicological prop erties come m. "We know, for example, that two substance-, may be equally toxic but quite different in xespect to hazard Thus, it should be the mdus\ trial hygienist's esponsibihty to accumulate all the information that j is available, and it should be his responsibility to digest this informaI non and den rmine to what extent more inhumation is needed, bo\ (Mise hr ia n '1 limit his i rspotisihil it v Y sntiplv say mu that onlv so i Mini !i is [mown about (hr snbMatu'1 ami i h-*t <*imr <h`t isjozis ha\r Jo ! 2* 1 ] be based upon this limited data He must see to it that the necessary additional information is obtained M O D E R A T O R A1IBARN Dr. McGee DR, M e G K E . Accepting the suggestions that Ted H atch has given, I wonder if lie would admit there is a practical shortcut wluHi is useful m human exposures to some materials I refer to the f:te( that if you have an explosive hazard at a concentration in an* well below that causing a definite, clear-cut, biological effect, it is a simple and good operating rule to take the lowest concentration needed as a guide You may disregard certain properties which are evident only at levels above that level which can be tolerated for reasons of safely M O D E R A T O R A IT E A K N : Thank you very much, D r. AleGVe There are two questions on the list which bear essentially on the same points and we will Therefore discuss them jointly They are 1. " What is the liability of a manufacturer of a toxic chemical who sells it in bulk for packaging and resale by the purchaser under his own name or brand in the event of an injury to an ultimate con sum erqJ' and. 2. 11W hat liability does a company have tor its product if att adequate warning label is placed on the container hut the nliinm lr consumer either does not read the warning label or does not follow it*, instructions 1 am going to call on Mr O viatt first. M R. O V IA T T i f the manufacturer adequately warns a reseller of the toxic nature of the material either on the label or otherwise and of rhe care that should he used in handling it, he is not li;dhif the reseller fails to put such warning on the package when In* re packages it and sells it to the public. Of course, jf a maim Karl u m should find out m any one of numerous ways that the reseller is fail m g to put the notice or the warning or any materia! part fhoteof mi the packages, then he should call the reseller's attention to it. If i Inreseller persists m disregarding those warnings, then I belirw llmi he should stop selling it to him for his own safety O f course, what should go on a label d e p e n ds nieatl.v on tin- dnsa o f Trade to w h i ch any product is sol d, t he k n o wl edge o f tin- p e o p l e who are going to use it. the Hieimv-ai kno wl ed g e an d results Mm! mp-lil come fioni m is h a n d l in g So von e a n 't say a label lias to boar Mur; and so foi the e n t i r e g e n e r a l pubic A n d that would al so rmitrol !o a (Cft i i i n oxi mt t , \\hni shoul d ^o on a Jabe. f> a (-vdJef // / u bat k n o w l e d g e lie oi.*\ h a v e of Hie eliom l eaK s o l d i i k ! w]i,t f be . li mi ld `id v s( hjs jiin t j j . i sn s as in !ln uu fbnd o 1 use M O D E R A T O R A H E A R N . Thank you very much. Mr Oviatt. Mr, Baile. MR. B A IL E . I think in answering the first of the two questions, you have to make a distinction between chemicals which are toxic as a normal attribute of the chemical itself on the one hand, and on the other hand the chemical which is toxic as a result of some dangercreating defect that exists in the chemical which would normally he harmless. Now. I thmk M r O viatt's answer is primarily directed to the first class where you are dealing with the chemical which is naturally toxic Under those circumstances, when the purchaser is given full knowledge of the toxic character of it and the dangers that are in herent, or the purchaser, without your telling him. has that knowl edge. I don't think there is any liability on the part of the manu facturer. However, where the toxic character of the chemical is created by some defect in the manufacturing process, then I think there is liability on the part of the manufacturer. I don't thmk we aie going to permit manufacturers to insulate their own carelessness in the manufacture of their product against consumers by the intervention of a middle man. MR. O V I A T T : Mr. Baile, after all. the question was what is the liability of the manufacturer of a toxic chemical Now a chemical is either toxic or not toxic, is that right? MR. B A I L E Not according to my friend at the beginning of the meeting. M R O V I A T T : I f a chemical becomes toxic because of the de fect, that isn 't the subject of our meeting today, is it? I thought we are just speaking of materials that are inherently toxic without any defect producing toxicity. M O D E R A T O R A H E A R N : I believe it would be helpful to the audience. Mr Baile, if we had more pointed discussion of the second half of this question, because it seems to me it is a question which most people in this audience are very much interested m Will you point vour nun arks specifically to that question9 M R B A I L E A s M r Ov i nH poi nt ed out , the h a s n consult*! <\ t ion in i mpos i ng, l i a bi l i t y u p o n .1 m. i mi Li et i ne* ot ,j c h e mi c a l , wi nch in its naiutt* is t o x i c , is t h e o b l i g a t i o n Hi.it is i mpos ed upo n hi m 10 d ' s s c i m n, i lr ( hr K n o w l e d g e !li.H he h a s ol the d, m"< i s In Hit* p u j e h a s c r N o w, his n' i! \ me t h o d of d o n t ;1 f h. d 'it mo d nisi me< ; s i(n*oiudi Mhehii;* I i the product with an appropriate warning, stating prohibitions ngninaf particular use and providing an antidote in the event harm is m countered. Having done that, there is not much more he can d<>. If. therefore, he meets that requirement--puts an adequate want ing on his product-- the unwillingness of an ultimate user to Mike advantage of the knowledge that has been made available io him, either refusing to read it or failing to understand that whirfi * clearly understandable does not create a liability. On the coni r a n . it constitutes on the part of the consumer, the party injured, ;i fault which would bar any right of recovery that he should have a^nmsl .1 manufacturer. M R. O V I A T T : On the other hand, what you are realty s.n im; is that the manufacturer does not have to police his cuslomrcK M R. B A I L E : I think that is a fair statement. M O D E R A T O R A H E A R N . I believe the audiem-r apprenaird that additional contribution from both of you By the way, I forgot to say in opening this meeting Hml at Murequest of the panel, I want to make it clear that the member* of Mupanel are speaking only for themselves as individuals and are not (> be regarded as committing their companies in any way. 1 Mimk wr may assume that they and their companies arc fairly dose fogethei We will go on to the next question now: In wind way ran the producer of a toxic substance aid m securing its safe use by edu< n tion, research, and development of control measures?" Mr. ilab-li, M R. H A T C H WTe agreed in a preliminary panel meet mi- tin*; morning that this question answers itself The point is, how e;m we get the producer to recognize and accept ins responsibility'? Wre have many examples m winch Mu* of (owe substances have recognized and assumed responsibility m Hus tv.p.-.d even to the extent of requiring the customer to show evidence in .|(| vance that he has made adequate provisions for the safe lutudliiq- nj the material hefoie they will supply it to him i reca ll w h en I was with the New Y o i L ha hoi- i >e| mrt men i ilup oin* c o m p a n y whieh was p ro d u cin g and dist r i h i i h n g a h ig h l y (o \o m aterial re q u ire d o\er> potential (`iistmner in New Yni t in (|t^ ap pro va l o 1 tin* S t a t e fnt th eir [>roposed eon I ml In I lie nee* ut .n io ljirr 1o\n* s i ih s h u ir r fun* o f our Jur^r rbennonJ e n i n p i n n r , jn,/( fit)| 111> 'to el aborate p i o ^ Mi i i of ' mI'h m I uhi nt 1hr ul ti mate eote.timei | 111( material. :n recognition ol tin- \n\ tmpmlahi I'aet (hat u i( tieut mIm {11a t< 11i e l \ m< a -a11es mie, <11it1e1111<< ,\\e i < Ik *m rn IIn i rutd ( i w < 11 1 h t l i k - I < - I 111 11 1 M t i H la 0 11 < I I I f Ii c I k \ ( J< 1| M i l C 11( nf , ,, V measures. There is a particular responsibility and opportunity here on the part of the producer because, as I said earlier, the hazard can be magnified or minimized for a given toxic material by the manner in which the process equipment operates. It is the responsibility of the producei of such materials to take part in the development of safe-process equipment so that he will be in a position to advise his customer on the kind of equipment in which lie is to use this toxic material. M O D E R A T O R A H E A R N Thank you. Ted Dt Bachman. D R . B A C H M A N . I can only add to Mr. H atch's remarks by call ing attention to an action one company is taking. They bring m the customer's employees who are going to use this material and give the employees of the customer a course in the handling of it Now this, I think, is an excellent approach when you get to extremely hazard ous conditions I don't know of anything that you can do beyond that M O D E R A T O R A H E A R N Now we come to two questions which the panel believes should be grouped together also ` ` What pro cedures should be followed to determine whether any of the plant personnel are abnormally sensitive to toxic materials. In conjunction with that " How is a health problem to be anticipated? Recognized? Proved ?5' Dr McGee D R M cG EE In general, there are certain principles which some of ns feel should be followed. In the first place, we must know as much as we can about the biological action of the material concerned- We like to know how it can affect the animal with which we are primarily concerned There may be a species variation, such as the rabbit story Ted Hatch men tioned The full story of biological action mvoives some understand ing of* the molecular structure, action at a cellular level, the details of the chemical, metabolic and other changes brought about in the body, to the extent that oui research methods and our understanding of metabolism of the body allows us to define those thing* Secondly, from the standpoint of man the worker, u is quite essential that we know' who in the plant has a deviation from his optimum Mato of health, when, where and why We aie not able to recognize or anticipate a health problem unless we know what to look Sor, and actually do look periodically at tins crucial and contin uin g e x p e r i m e n t n which the workci is involved To accomplish (hat, we must know w h e t his s i t u a t i o n h e a l l h w t s e is v h*n lw s M i i s to w o r k ( b r i d l e ( \ po s i i M 1 } and at mt e i\ <ds f h r i r a i t r i [ I i t , ! [ K , ' h t i p i ` 1 ' 11 M i ! ' ( ; ( ) [ ( ) 1 \ | ] I / , t i ! ( M ! s 1 ' ' 11 M ' ( t * ( ! >< . t I ! o I i AbX i when using a new material, examine the worker at rather tYeqwrni intervals until they define for themselves* 1 That the average person does well under the circumstance:! and the control situation that exists at the plant; and 2 That m a sufficient experience they have not demons! m ini nit unusual sensitivity. I refer not only to the entire group of allergies, hut to souk* of ihr idiosyncrasies which are not too well understood. A part of this recognition of a hazard involves other Ilian knowledge, orientation and thinking about it day by da\ A ivn|i<iu sible individual reviews some of the possibilities which may hr over looked and checks and double checks to see if they arc actually o<vin ring I f von don't look, 1 will assure you that the experience of mo.i of us is that you can miss them until they force themseKrs o n yntt B y looking carefully for an untoward reaction you may find it rarlnm than otherwise M O D E R A T O R A H B A R N Thank you. Now. l)r. Uadi man. D R . B A C H M A N : Once again I am in a position of backup man with very little to say on the subject, because I think Dr tins pretty much said what can be said. I do note that the pom! at which most of the conditions arise or appear is at the star! of ;i now phml I think it is only by following the points as made by Dr. Mr(!ee Unit one can discover or uncover the abnormal sensitivity of ;t person The only thing that I know of that could be done is !o remove (hi, man from the action and pray that he doesn't gel worst' M O D E R A T O R A H E A R N Thank you. Dr. Bachman Mr IDifdi M R H A T C H I would like to add to what Dr. Metier nmu! In addition to the continuing observations on the men f or the p u r p o s e of identifying a problem area, it is equally e s senti a! that iherr he pt ir M lei studies on exposure. The ultimate purpose is to compare the mm with the other So don't forget that it is the t w o l o g y ! h e r . tlm Hum and the environment, that have to he sin died eon! i m i o u s h m o f< | ,, r to reveal significant relationships With mechanization and automation ihe mandenanee people jp .*i plant become more and wore import,ml There are more of them m proportion to production men and difficult problems a m e will* icspect to them because Him* exposures are so wnird and intrertnni This, systematic and continuing studies are even m o t e impoifaui DK Z> \ i >J* I i < < | i i e n 11 \ t u i d ( 1 should like jo eolanieJil on ,j Mjijne loot (hat j, t i n t e , u 1 \ * * a m I w * d ( < < I ( j o . d m < M m - d I \ J'ii tive individual by some sort of screening test9 For dermatitis, for example, why not a patch test before he is put into contact with the suspected material ox his joM Generally speaking, we do not recommend this procedure. I be lieve one of the biggest sceJc attempts at this sort of thing was the testing of volunteers with mustard gas at the beginning of World War II. A great many were tested in an effort to determine individual variations m sensitivity One consequence of this program was that some of the men were sensitized to mustard gas and therefore reacted abnormally whenever they came in contact with small concentrations So, it is not a practical procedure to weed out the hypersensitive by a preliminary testing program if we are dealing with a sensitizer. The other comment is that we can anticipate certain types of difficulty. For example, suppose we are dealing with a chemical that produces kidney injury It would not be wise to expose a man who has only one kidney . he might very well be abnormally sensitive And that brings up the importance of an adequate, preplacement medical examination and a classification of a man as fit or unfit for a certain type of exposure. DR. M cG E E May I add one thing which I think is important? It is the absolute necessity of a critical attitude m tying down the diagnosis. I know of a few areas where it is more important to crossexamine a diagnosis and prove it to the extent that it is possible to prove it than in occupational disease. The very act of having a high index of suspicion when supervising an operation with a potential hazard sometimes leads to false diagnoses that can be troublesome. I am reminded of the incident of the plant physician who was aware that a chemical could be a sensitizer of the skin and lead to a dermatitis He showed me a case of a very stubborn dermatitis, stub born because the man had been removed from the exposure for six months and still had the skm lesions I was visiting the plant at the time I had a hunch of a different diagnosis when I saw the man's lesions, partly because I was not expecting contact dermatitis, as was the plant physician who lives with the problem every day I asked the patient if there were members of his family whn h?d similar skin trouble There were two members who had similar complaints. The diaunosis proved to be scabies for all three of the patients . M O D E R A T O R A H E A R N Thank you v eiv much We will go on t o the next question " Does the usual Produets Inability Policy cover <m\ and ad Mahihtc that n v v be imposed upon a manufacture! for daniaues in sulting from the use of his p iodw ci9 \J W ! 1A I 1. E I i i i o sK I he u ris i ' o i h.p (fa i s i i i tp is on si \ no i dGO | First of all. it does not cover any liability in excess of limits that or provided in the policy Second, it does not cover the liability Unit might be imposed upon a manufacturer for damage to the product itself That liability is excluded in the normal policy. Third, umat product liability policies are written on what is called ` ` accident basis/' They cover liability imposed upon the manufacturer fur damages arising out of the use of a product, caused by accident. A m dent is used there in the sense of some event which is identifiable in point of time and place of occurrence, as distinguished from a<lver<< effects which are cumulative over a long period of time or over a great amount of space. For that reason, it is very important, and part ini larly when you are considering the exposure of a manufacturer tu (l liability resulting from toxic effects of the products, that yon keep m mind that a policy which is written on the usual accident IIasi's is not a satisfactory policy for your purposes In that instance, you slum Id be certain that your policy is written on what insurance men dinmto call " occurrence basis.'5as distinguished from an " accident hu\i*. I thing in one other instance the fact that it is on an anadnif basis is important, because that also is designed to exclude am coverage of the results of business decisions that might be If t pretty difficult to illustrate that in a case of products T Hindi if n more apparent in the case of general liabilitv policies. You bit* (In road contractor who has two methods of tearing up an area <>i method is a little cheaper for him. but it involves exposing sun mid ing properties to damage by shaking or noise or something like Muif The other method, which might cost him a little bd more money, would avoid that W ith that knowledge, he proceed io follow Ila* kw **\ pensive method That is a business decision the company fur. made M R. .T. C. W A T E R S May I ask one question as fo find? Win do not insurance carriers write policies on a broader basis so they pvt beyond the concept of accidents? M R B A T L E * 1 think to answer lhal question y m have lo ulurl our with the premise lhal the insurance company, if d could, would bo very happy to write policies on a eomplcioly broad basis. Tlu\\ would be very happy to lastin' me total iiabiiuv of industry. To do that, of coarse, we would have lo receive the lot at income of ciich mm Iany individually, which vuu would he unwilling In pay by way ul premium Therefore, il is Ibe qijrsfion of !><iI.innng Hie irk lhal you have been exposed lo avamsf what yen air wiilmp [<i pay for, imf ue< rss.t r'i !y willing, bnl wh.ii \on can iva.soii.i M\ pay for, So if is ,i puoshoii of r>o!.i(in*' Ihose lia'/.tid.i which niv nuM i ni'i'imn (o 11 i<111 si I 1rt iii i,1 11\ ,i iuI (nW'iiii" I11( nt 'Mel o'lmlniff Ito specific hazards of a particular company or industry which are sub jected to a much greater hazard than any other part of that industry or any other industry. The second answer to the question, however, from the standpoint of products liability, is that the insurance industry in general will write the policy on an occurrence basis. W hat they are going to want to know m a particular industry is what are the hazards to which that company is exposed ? And they will try to measure the rate that they charge m the light of those hazards B u t, as an additional point, for the company that is exposed by virtue of the nature of its product to damage arising out o f the toxic effects, it is most impor tant that they should have their policies written on the occurrence basis I think in the main it will be an insurable risk on an occurrence basis. M O D E R A T O R A IIE A R N Dr McGee D R M c G E E I disclaim any knowledge of product liability poli cies As a physician, i would hope that no device or arbitrary fa c tors would ever lessen the desirability and need for a manufacturer to know those things about his products which are reasonable and which he should determine prior to their use M O D E R A T O R A H E A R N - Thank yon ve^v much The next question is ` 'Inasm uch as your industrial experience has been quite broad, what, based upon that experience, do you think constitutes the average corporate philosophy concerning management's responsi bility for the safety and protection of its employees' " D r Bachman DR B A C H M A N I think this is rather an interesting question, and, of course, can only be answered on the basis of one's own ex perience; and I think in arriving at any statement or a n y thought concerning what the average corporate philosophy is today, one must review' what has happened over the course of one's lifetim e The gen eral approach to safety 30 years ago was quite different from what it is today. The companies that were mostly interested m the safety of their men were, m a large measure, those companies where you had sort of a paternalistic feeling between the owners of the company and towards their men I don't think there was much of a concerted effort for safety Some, perhaps, but not too great Then as time went on and we grew, we have had a change m economic and sociological conditions. I think we have had manage ment people, as a whole, become much more socially conscious towards then P'Mow man and conscious of their obligations to him over this itU i |wo iod Thai has created a great deal of difference m the ,1jif)] <i it ft In <ie \e io [>1 iia sa t et v me.isil 1es for 'on i)1o\ '<*si i 2G2 1 n addition. I think managements over the years have recognized that safety is economically sound for a number of reasons. It has u very definite monetary value when you consider our competitive economy. Processes have grown more and more complicated ; new products have appeared. This has caused the management to spend more money in order to build plants which inevitably have become complicated. W ith the plants becoming more complicated and the production increasing, it has been very desirable for the management to see Mud they obtain the highest quality of work and the most skilled worker,< that they can The skilled worker became a very intricate cog m the production wheel, and it was certainly most desirable to protect him in the best possible manner, to look out for his health and ho smv that he worked safely. The loss through accidents or through some fatality would be serious, and, actually, mean a lot in dollars in pr*. duction time and production effort 1 think tins social consriousinv., and these other two factors have gone a long way in improving <>m approach to better and safer working conditions. Furtherm ore, ammo has been saved, and this has been well recommended in the s:m n :'* in the workmen's compensation fees A gain. I think another factor that makes it worthwhile ior man agement to have a very favorable attitude towards safely is that ii increases and improves the morale o f their workers, and J km\\ m our organization we have a saying, " A safe plant is rat lier a happ.\ plant And usually, if you have a happy plant, you have your h-u-ii difficulties and you get your best work. From my own experience, I would s<iy that whereas m years when one approached expenditures for safety purposes. the question might he raised, " Is this necessary*' ', the attitude taken today by most corporate managements is, " W ill ihis do yood ' II it is likely to do good, then put it in " i think tins is rallier elmne teristic in my experience. M O D E R A T O R A H E A R N Thank von \cr\ much. Mr. <>vuilt. MR 0 V I ATT Dr Bachman has pretty well covered Ihe **uh ject. I dOii. t know that all ihos\ v>ht, n .-'.th Jy * 'd*1 0 1 do years ago were paternalistic, but there lias been a dctinilc e h m w 0 1 philosophy Twenty-five or thirty years ago there were amufl ndtr manes that companies established with pail time medical pctuniutel, and they sat back waiting for aendeuls In happen N o w ' t h e y t rv to p r e v e n t .le e id e n fs Tlie v yo hi p i e a t letiellr* Mild spend VTeal sinus of mmicv to prevent ucenlrnl*:. and ( I funk thi'4 hi o' most el the l.t! HI KP.lhutr. K\ ( t\ \t .1t l:ii**e '**111-- ot j i:: money are spent on fully-equipped hospitals m the plants and in the office buildings. They have periodical examinations made of their employees They have safety programs and training programs for the supervisors m the plants. All in all. industrial medicine has become a large part of the medical profession and a very important cog m an industrial organi zation I know from experience that the presidents of some of the divisions of large corporations put up trophies to be competed for by the plants to see who can have the least lost-time accidents over a period. While the accident statistics may not bear out the statements that have been made, nevertheless, there is that consciousness and a striving all the time for bettering their record; and I think the rec ords over-all are being bettered every year As long as employers are conscious of this safety and what it will gain, not only in a monetary way, but in a happy, well-knit organization, they are not going to let up just because they have arrived at some degree of safety I feel that is the philosophy today. M O D E R A T O R A H E A R N Thank you. Now we will move on to another question. " Have there been recently substantial changes m the law respecting the liability of a manufacturer to one injured by his product M R B A I L E That term " recently is a relative term I f I would treat it as meaning m this century, I would say yes, there have been what you might call substantial changes, a change in concept and a change in application of principle. Prior to 1916, generally m this country, you would have heard the rule stated that a manufacturer has no liability for injuries re sulting from the use of his product beyond persons who are in direct contractual relations with him In 1916. by the famous decision of Justice Cardoza, that principle was finally broken down and m lieu of it was adopted the rule if a manufacturer would recognize that a defectively made product of his involved an unreasonable risk of harm to remote users or persons in the vicinity of remote users, that then he was under duty to make it carefully and from that has grown the general principle now, that manufacturers are. in the main, liable for defects in their products or for hazards agamst which they can guard, even to those persons who have no contractual relationship will) llwm Probably more important, than that has been the change in the aiion of that rule Wedless to saw in any claim bv remote users ,tWunM <t m,i mu km 1ho p*ohb*m <>! ( . i i s d t o ' i a vm i o i s one AI I 26 1 ] manufacturer may make his product at one place and it may (ravel through many hands over much territory and during a long period of time before it becomes a factor in somebody's injury. The problem is then to determine whether or not some activity on the pari, of Uh* manufacturer was the cause of that injury In the main, in the past years our courts lequired rather specific proof of casual relationship If there has been a major change of our law. it is the tendency of our courts-- and I am one of those who thinks it is a very undesirable :m<l unfortunate tendency--to accept what I call hypothetical or qinn tionable proof of relationship between cause and injury, i think Ihov* two main changes that have occurred have been very subshniiinf changes and have greatly broadened the scope of the liability of tbr manufacturer. M R O V IA T T * T have very little to add The concepts of mm contractual relationship has been broadened the last few years I think the courts are inclined to stretch that doctrine perhaps sometime*. ; little too far, but that old doctrine of McPherson vs. 1'uiek r<>mp.m\ has opened a new thought on this question of liability, which I Hunk is all right as long as they don't take it too far. M O D E R A T O R A H E A R N Thank you very much. Now, we will go on to the next question " What are the possibilities of ehaiinm* process equipment or methods of manufacture or use of a fosie ma terial in order to reduce the potential hazard9" M R H A T C H I should like to speak at groat length on I Ins pmot but we don't have the time It is a very important p o i nl . Then* re great possibilities for changing a situation from one o f " r e a l dan** t to one of relatively little danger through Hie pr ope r d es i gn or eimier of process equipment I don't know of am thing more frirWf him than to work on a plant problem and to realize, while \vresiling with it, that it should never have existed in (he iirsf pbme, SomebtMlv along the line failed to give proper attenti on to I lie selecti on o f I he right kind of equipment so as to avoid the problem I feel Umf (he industrial hygienists who, up to now. l i a\ e been l a r g e l y eoNc e i ne d with hazard eontrrd tkoud' application of w-nt bpPm muf thm* secondary measures must, m the f utur e, g i v e g r e a t e r c ons i d e r \ ion to redesign of the process equi pment itself for purpose?. of ha^rd control T h e r e a r e e n d l e s s n u mb e r s o f e x a m p l e s of (he c r e a t i on if (ot mi i m c e s s a i v p r o b l e m bec aus e of (he ('inline o[ des i gner ? ', of (iinecfc- eq u i [mmi 11 to in e o r p o r a I( into I lieiv ini ti al I 111n I iiw (jiu*n I o mi >. of It -<a t d a nd fo ,i< eepi f i o m (hr outset .1 1 rsj k neabt Ii( \ (u ' o mu m/ i * Mu' pnltUi ! | tial hazard which is on a par with the responsibility they assume for the operation of the process itself D R Z A P P I would certainly agree with everything* that Ted Hatch has said I notice that this question really concerns three things* possibilities of changing process equipment, methods of manu facture, and use of toxic material T am sure that we could think of examples of all three. Ted has spoken of changing process equipment of one sort or the other Then, the manufacturer may sometimes be able to substitute a less toxic material. As far as the hazard of use is concerned, I can think of some examples. I think it is almost a truism that we can control any toxic hazard if w~e are willing to go to the trouble to do it. Now, sometimes economies is a decisive factor there That is, if you have to take ex tensive measures to control a hazard, it may not be economically feasible to do it M O D E R A T O R A H E A R N : Thank you, Dr. Zapp Next question ` ` Can one distinguish between health impairment resulting from effects of handling toxic material and that resulting from fear (anx iety states) of effects from handling such materials?" Dr McGee DR. M c G E E . I think the answer is " yes7' for certain m aterial and ` `no77 for others I f a satisfactory differential diagnosis is to be made, there are two requirements First, there must be some objective test which is specific for the effects of the material B y that I mean, by reliable chemical analysis Second, there must be the ability to rule out a similar effect from anything else with which the worker may have come in contact inside or outside the plant. In other words, we must be able to say that a specific health impairment resulted from the material in question and under circumstances where we can rule out other possible factors producing that end result. An example is the anticholinesterase effects of certain phosphoruscontaining insecticides. You have an objective test, in most instances you have the opportunity to rule out other exposures which could alter significantly the level of cholinesterase m the blood* There is another field, how*ever, of materials whose effects are signs and symptoms which are rather vague I feel the clinician can not be sure whether such illness is a result of actual exposure to a material which is known to give such vague symptoms in the early stages Butterflies in the stomad 1, problems of sleeping, malaise ami !he like are symptoms found frequently m iho man who lias an ?m\- ml) slate Sometimes the i nnog n i/,a tion that the exposure is msiiffinoiif In pio<iiice the diseased stain r u n s as a masonablx good ehm Ih,i1j n auxin! v is \'`sponsi h!r ! i I think all the physicians present here will recall in their *\ periences examples of epidemics of anxiety m groups of! people ho cause one or more workers felt that he had developed illness fmiii a particular exposure He talked about it and others soon felt they had the same symptoms. In some instances we have sufficient control of the environment to know exactly what were the possibilities of <*\po sure and to say that it is impossible, under the amount of exposure for the episode to be a bona fide exposure with resulting illness There fore, the entire thing must be on a psychosomatic basis. M O D E R A T O R A H E A R N Now, we will go to another (pies! mu ` 'How adequate are animal experiments as a means of predicting f<\ icity for human beings*" DR. Z A P P I f we are trying to predict effects on the human being, then the human being himself would be the ideal experiment at animal We can't use man as an experimental animal, and, therefore we must accept other species as an imperfect substitute. Now, perhaps the soundest basis for predicting the efi'eei*: <,m man from the effects on animals is that our internal anatoms aml physiology are rather similar I f we are dealing with a chemical (hat produces liver damage m dogs and other animals, then we ran he fairly sure that it will produce liver damage in man We canmif I' too sure about the quantitative relationship. There are diflerriiees m species of susceptibility Now, with all that, with the recognition that animal cvpermien tation is an imperfect substitute, I think we can look with .some `alia faction at results that we have obtained m predicting effects mi man through animal experiments over the past 100 years. We have ret tainly learned a lot from the animals, and we have, with the mu- <>i perhaps arbitrary factors of safety, been guided by (hose re*inlb, m setting up criteria for safe practices witli respect to man. By and large, we have been successful Then* arc exeepimu*, There are materials that affect man in ways that we carmof reprodtuv in any experimental animal, but they arc, fortunately, rather nnv M R H A T C H 1 like the emphasi s l)i Z a p o put on Hu* q u a n t t t a t i v e aspects F o r obvi ous reasons, it is not possible to f rimshtlc Mu* findings on ani mal s for direct application to man I low a d e q u a t e a re a ni ma l e\ p e nme n i s * I n -anm* 'in*". I hr \ a w h i gh l y adequate a n d m some other rases they h av en ' t been adetpuifo ( V i t a i n l y , hoi k * o f ns want to go ;n\a\ f rom l i n e wi t h the ttie/i Mntf Hie c \ p c i imental a n n e a l e.m gi\e us all Mu* a n s we r s , hit( lhe\ Imv** " i M'i i ns m i o i iu,i! ion o! e n o r mo u s value So, t here r no q u i ' l i m t Hint tlu a n i m a l n l a \ s an i m p o i i a n i f>:i r f in lie ( mi s ol (<i\ie 'uouila M O D E R A T O R A H E A R N We have arrived at the moment when we would welcome questions or statements from the floor I f anyone has a question to ask about any phase of the discussion of the panel, I would welcome his getting up and giving his name and asking his question or making his suggestion D R A N N A M. B A E T J E R , Johns-Hopkms University I know that the time is very limited, and we have not had time to cover all the questions I would particularly like the panel to discuss two phases - one. the three questions that deal with the labeling laws and the importance of these; and two, how can the consumer determine the composition of toxic materials sold under trade names? M O D E R A T O R A H E A R N : As a matter of fact, we had grouped those three together. Dr McGee, will you take off on those questions? D R . M c G E E How can consumers determine the composition of toxic materials sold tinder trade names9 Sometimes it is almost im possible to do so. Prom the standpoint of a practicing physician treat ing acute poisoning, such information comes in too late for him to help his patient. H is problem is that of taking a trade name and trying to find out what it means He gets a chemical identity as the first step, and he still doesn't know what the material is in a pharma cologic sense. He has to have that material classified in a pharma cologic or toxicologic sense for the information to be of any help to him. I f he doesn't know something of the biologic properties of the material, if he doesn't know the site of action, he will have no basis for intelligent therapy Too frequently, m our present setup, that in formation comes to him a little late to be in the best interests of the patient The iabels are not big enough to contain all of this informa tion which might be required by the physician. There are in some packages inserts of descriptive material which can be of use to him in some instances. I think, frankly, we must improve techniques for getting the in formation that is required to the customer, and in turn to his physi cian where there has been an accident and resulting illness Poison control information centers mav help M O D E R A T O R A H E A R N Thank you very much D r. Bach man, y o u are a chemical engineer i believe everybody w o u l d like to hear y o u r specific answers 1o the quest i on of w h e t h e r a m a n u f a c ture) o f t o xi c ma t er i a l s c a n la* c ompel l ed to f ol l o w l a b e l i n g r es t r i c ti ons .ind c a u t i o n s a s r ec omme nded b\ tin* Ma n 11 fact t i r i n g C h e m i s t s * Asson.it ioii Also, we would like to have your c om m en t s on the cur lent s t a t u s o f ('hurts bv a n i m i h n of o i g ini/al mus. sm-h .is tin* M a i m | ~(>X | facturing Chemists' Association, to develop adequate labeling and to standardize labeling. D R B A C H M A N I don't believe the Manufacturing Ciunninlri1 Association has any authority My answer to that is no. 1 don't bo lieve manufacturers can be compelled to follow the recomiriendatiotin of the Manufacturing Chemists' Association. On the oilier hand, I think it is highly desirable that they cooperate to the maximum degree possible, and I think the great majority of the manufacturers do m tempt to do this because most of them are members of the MiimiTite turing Chemists' Association. Now, as to the current status of these efforts, that is perhaps mu* of the most active committees in the Manufacturing Chemists' Ainu ciation. In many cases, it has formulated codes and labels to hr used, which I believe are being used. O f course. I thmk the crux of the whole question line is for suHi organizations as the Manufacturing Chemists' Association, The Auter ican Medical Association, and the chemical specialty people In pet in gether and try to formulate a coordinated pokey on labeling VVr arc always going to have difficulties if you have several upproaehen fu labeling I think we must have a unified approach or, if it is hmkru down into compartments, these compartments inusl all original1 from the same source. That is. they must originate from the same authority be that authority one that results because people work logrfhn or <>m that is enforced by virtue of government action M O D E R A T O R A H E A R N There are a number of assort atnma, including the Manufacturing Chemists' Association, busy in this liol.l I believe the American Medical Association is equally active. I t seems to me. Dr Zapp. J should ask you 1o devote \onradf specifically to the question, *:How can consumers determine the emu position of toxic materials sold under trade names*" D R Z A P P Before I answer t h a t , Mr A h r a r n , I w o u l d like to make one comment on the current status o f f In* work* o f IIn v a n o i m associations The Manufacturing Chemists' Asso<*iat ion. t i i roi i^h I heir i< wv ! <"'jriet,`d! r"! Maeu i';tr( ur!up Association, and the American Me d i c a l As s oc i at i on h a v e a p r o r d find t h e y wi l l work together t o w a r d s w o r d i n g ol s o m e u n i f o r m hih"|iiitt l a w o r at least a '-el o f p r i n c i p l e s th.it wi l l g u i d e !h*;c v. i i iotu; jiMmem turns T h e C S M A g i o u p is now m e e t i n g in I *h d a d r l p l u n on Ih m v r j y s a m e s u b j e c t T ha t is I hr c u r r m l s t a t u s as f a r a s 1 know* \V ill) i `spor t !o (lies! ion `i 1, 1 t h i n k that .ill i h I'rr <tl flic apt'iteiMfi I h a \ r ms! ' ur nti oned thi M. mu ! > tin ni" ( `leir*` E \ -m ini Imm C S.M A , and A M A agree that there should he more information on product labels than there is at the present time I believe with respect to the industrial uses of chemicals, that industry is fairly well satisfied with M C A. ?s principles of labeling as expressed m its Manual of Warning Labels, with which I presume all of you are familiar. However, when it comes to the consumer, and particularly the user of small packages of cleaning powder or toothpaste or cement or what have yon, it is agreed that there should be more information on the label so that the user will have some idea of the active ingre dients and some idea of the hazards involved in an accidental expo sure to material One of the most frequent inquiries I suppose that we get in the du Pont Company is. what happens if a chikl swallows a little du Pont cement? Tt was never intended for that purpose, of course, but the question is. what happens? Fortunately, the answer to that is. '"prac tically nothing. don't worry about i t " : but that's the thing that the person needs to be reassured about. The physicians, on the other hand, would like to see on the label the kind of information that would enable them to treat cases of accidental exposure. Now, with all the good will in the world on the part of these organizations, there are still many practical difficulties involved in formulating a set of label ing principles that will do the job to everyone's satisfaction. The householder really wants to know- how to keep out of trouble and avoid calling the M D A And so it goes Now, I think that something is going to be done, and out of all this activity there will be more product information on the labels Meanwhile, we have the resources that Dr McGee told us about, the poison control center There are one or two compilations that give us a good deal of information about the trade name products, and Dr Hodge of the University of Rochester is coming out with an encyclo pedia which will give more information of that type But, ultimately, the manufacturer is the best source of information if you need it. In most of these cases vhere information is needed m a hurry, I think it can be best obtained by getting in touch with the manufacturer or his branch office. M O D E R A T O R AH E A R N : Thank you, Dr Zapp Mr. Bade, i believe to complete the discussion, you ought to answer this question " Are present labeling laws adequate with respect to requiring warn ing and preventive measures as to toxic qualities?" MR H A I L E f Mimk tlioie we first ha\e to define the sense in whi<h we arc* using the ierm adequate ii we use the word m the srnsr lhal <(>m[i! i <i 11 ('(* assurer itnimmitv hum li.ihihiv fot Ilie mntm [ 270 | facturer, our answer would be one thing and on the other hand, if we mean by adequate m the sense of sufficient requirements and en forcement to protect the public from injury, I think there is a dif ferent answer. From the first standpoint, labeling laws as such do not give im munity from liability to a manufacturer by mere compliance with IIn* labeling law. The common law itself imposes a duty upon the mami facturer to bring to the attention of the users of his product and people who are m the vicinity of its use, the dangers winch are m herent m its use or may flow from it. He must comply with tlwii standard. Considering it from the second standpoint-- of the adequacy <>i the laws to protect the public from injury-- I think we have to say I 1ml the law's as such are inadequate I am also one of those who 1ms (li< viewr that the laws wall always be inadequate, because I thmk ther* r. necessarily a lag between technology and its development, and tim ability of legislators to act For that reason. I have always felt that effective hi he! mg Ir^r, lation should be broad and general in its terms and depend for Hh-.* tiveness upon detailed and limited regulations issued mu-m i.ml n. that broad general statute i thmk when this is done, we an* ihm able to more quickly adopt regulations to changing conditions and i>. more effectively enable industry to comply, because tlie> ran in* rni.n specific and thus more clearly understood. A s you know, the number of labeling statutes ihaf r\ist l<tdit\ are bad Even the person who confines his attention to tfi.it m iIi;<v | and nothing else, and there are few people who do, not only bos fh u . or four federal statutes with which he must deal, but there aiv sum 28 separate state statutes, and then there is a multitude of (oral m dinances that have other effects upon us They have m<m\ jidvanlip*,-. from the standpoint of imposing criminal iiabilii\ in all m.famv., however, they are not effective in enabling aid iioril ies to (aim out ,,i the market the products that do not meet Hu* requirements o! [lm l|t statutes, and needless to say, the only wav Unit yon can really rftVr tively prevent harm from substances that are improperly m (he mai Iret ic to ev c lu d e t b e W) H W1 r; irkei by curtfi.v a i m s , M r . A b e a m , I would sa\ by way o f sum m ary yea. <uir bibrl m g laws are inadequate Tim e nerd io Ik* eli.mged and [ am to'pcl'td they wall be. M Iv W AT K US I Hunk Illr .Itl<Iirltrr Would Ih* iII(rt t*'11rd itt l||i) rpirsi am ol vlirfhn imiustnes should tell ilirit rmployrt*. that ilm m a t r r n d I h r v m r h a n d l m ; * i n \ 'r mi e u r r M u r ' c r m M O D E R A T O R A H E A R N : I think we decided to group that question with the question, " Should information on the presence of toxic exposures m industry, obtained by health departments, be given to labor unions and employees or only to management?" Dr. McGee. D R M cG E E In answer to the first question, I have found no way to conduct a program which will get the cooperation of the em ployees without giving them the reasons for it. These people are en titled to it. I think the only successful programs that I have observed else where. outside of o u t organization, are those m which the employee has some knowledge of why he follows certain operating procedures regardless of what the end effect is of the material or the end effect might be in the materials that he handles. Therefore, I would say that we must give the employee that knowledge so that he can under stand and use it in coming to a conclusion as to why he must do cer tain things to protect himself I think the same statements apply to organized groups and safety committees and union leaders. M O D E R A T O R A H E A R N . You draw no distinction as to infor mation made available? DR. M cG E E : That's right. F L O O R S P E A K E R : It is required in Ohio to tell the employees of the toxic material m the department and it is required to repeat it to them monthly M O D E R A T O R A H E A R N Thank you very much M A N F R E D BCIW DITCH, Lead Industries Association: I think there were two important matters not covered in the discussion of labeling. First of all. Dr. McGee said that very frequently the nature of the toxic substances gets to the doctor too late. I wonder if he is aware of the fact that the American Academy of Pediatrics has now established over 30 poison control centers from coast to coast There are 15 in the State of Florida alone All of them are manned by tele phone 24 hours a day A ll are in charge of a physician, and at a meeting only day before yesterday it was agreed that the Public Health Service will be asked to take over die national direction of these centers and see that current information is supplied to all of them I really think that this is of importance. W ith regard to the matter of warning labels, there is a body of laws known as the Pharmacy Laws, which were designed to protect the public in pur chases over drug store counters In a court m one of the southern Males iccenllv, one of those laws was intei preted to cover a shipment ni Ijit'amr nt mdnury and an awanl of +18 000 was made on that r '7 2 1 basis, and at the present time I understand that further suits ammint ing to $80,000 are before the courts. I am told that only about half a dozen of the states have adequate exemptions to prevent such mhi* interpretations Only about three weeks ago I discussed this witli representatives of the Manufacturing Chemists7Association, and it U my understanding that thev will take steps to try to bring exemptions into the laws of the other states. MR. T. J L A N IG A N , General Electric Company: 1 would \\[<, to hear discussion on the question. "H ow is it best possible to iujtjn tarn a continuing safety awareness among employees engaged j hazardous occupations involving the use of toxic m aterials9' 1 MR. H A T C H : To have an effective safety program the |(. who are attempting to do this must maintain among themsckv., , awareness of safety needs that is stronger than the safety of the employees. I have no particular procedure to suggest ( have had no special experience in developing and maintainmj, awareness. I do know from experience, however, that there is risk if such awareness is not maintained and developed on the (it everybody concerned. We have all seen good programs break down because of lack of maintenance of awareness MODERATOR A H E A R N : Dr Zapp. would you comment DR. Z A P P I will only add to what Ted Hatch 1ms said | \\uu\t the promotion of the continual awareness of the xa(Vty prnvra,,, among employees is a responsibility of supervision. Supervisor;. XM(| only do it if they know that higher management wants them u {\tt ( Now, when safety policy is set at the top level of company tu;i,,Jt,r ment and is passed on down through the various supervisory <(,., to the employees, then I believe the prog)am can be maiiihnnrd quately, and the employees will have a continuing awareness .,r n,(t program. I f the foreman goes around an aiea without wearing ,t |Ua,fl| where a mask is required or without weanmr safety glasses ,n u area where safety glasses are required, ol>\ tou.sly. by his ex/mi^i,. j is going to undermine the whole program If. on Hu- other hump goes in with a mask on or goes in with safely glasses on and that others do likewise, he has <i good of i i\.re:;:g Mu* and maintaining the continued awareness that Ibis quest ion apHJt|u1 0|* M O D E R A T O R A H E A R N Than k you Mr Haile, you fllv ( ^ general counsel of an UMiniitu1c o m p a m It skeins to me y o u |ji() panelist to answer those two q u e s t i on s ` Wli . n m e t h o d s ntv n v u (|i,|lq1 to insurance carrbux to assist Ilnur u is im m U m the p r ot ec t itM, (|| )( pio\t`CS and the put chasm;.' publi c iioui i b* It. r/. lid- uf (| terials?" and. 1' Wliiit methods are available to insurance carriers to assist small industries in the detection and control of hazardous con ditions?" MR. B A X L E : I think those questions are primarily directed to the insurance carriers' place in contributing towards the reduction of accidents in industry, either among the employees or m users of the product or in third parties who might be otherwise affected by the ac tivity of the employees of an industry. I think that it can probably come under eight points: First is the function that D r Zapp has already mentioned, that is, through the ^ale of the insurance there is brought to the attention of top management the importance of the safety program It has a very direct influence on the amount of costs, a very substantial item in the cost of any industry. B y bringing that to bear on the top management, you get the influence which Dr. Zapp suggested, which is so necessary, of that philosophy going down through the various echelons of the company. Also, I think it is that very force that brought about the changes in the philosophy of industry that we referred to earlier I think the safety awareness ot* industry has been, to a great extent, brought about by the influence of the salesmanship, if you will, of the insur ance industry. B ut in a more practical sense, the insurance industry contributes through its engineering facilities and its suggestions and participation in the development of safety programs in any industry This consists of arranging and conducting safety meetings, distribut ing the proper type of literature, and the proper type of postings. Secondly, by its own engineering, it supplements the safety program of a company m ascertaining where the hazards m that industry exists And in doing so, it approaches it, I think, with a greater ob jectivity, because it is uninfluenced by those unconscious influences which company people are subject to. such as the costs of changing a process, the reduction in time, or the increase in time which some change of process to incorporate a safety factor would involve Another way in which they can contribute is in the preparation of (L catastrophe plan for specific hazards Insurance can aid in the development of drills so that companies are prepared in the event those catastrophes occur. Another manner in which they aid is m the supplying of in for mation for the pt operation and distribution of safety material The insurance industry icuimvs the collective know7ledge of many imlus111 es and can bring that know ledge to the aid of a particular company Tim i usu I :t u (*<* c'U'Tier also a i d s m tin* p r e p a r a tio n o f p u r c h a s i n g agent manuals, which is a method of coordinating the receipt of toxic materials into a plant, so that knowledge comes to the attention of Hu* production personnel of the nature of the product that is being brought m. m order that proper safety precautions can be taken. F inally, I think the contribution that the insurance carrier can make is to maintain the awareness of safety. 1 think the great ditli culty that occurs m many industries is that you develop a program to avoid accidents and prevent accidents It has a peak, and then it boots to slacken off Every once m awhile it needs to he rejuvenated I think the fact that the engineers of the insurance carrier and its stall come in regularly and constantly bring safety to the attention of i In* people at the production level helps establish the habit of safely a ml it is that habit which in the long run will prevent many accidents. M O D E R A T O R A H E A R N . On that same point, will you einl. rate on methods available to insurance carriers to assist small mhr. tries ? M R B A I L E . 1 might say this. I think there is a distinction that should be drawn there In some industries, because of their size, I ln-\ are able to employ the technical talent which is required in eifYetin;* a sound safety program: whereas m other industries, because of itu small number of employees they are not able to have people who will specialize in those particular problems. In that instance, the insurance carriers become another arm of the company and supply it v ;th icrhtn cal talent which it doesn't have available within its own personnel M R . 0 V I A T T Mr Baile isn't it true that (lie insurance rom panies look to the larger manufacturers many times to get minima tion on these roxic materials, on the processes that are used and t h<< safety devices that may be necessary? M R B A I L E . Veiy much so. M R O V J A T T . And then they can i mpar t that knowledge to ih.< smaller companies that are not in a position to litre these l i t e hb trained experts'7 MR BAILE -Q id io /!/frt11 )y rll* M B O V I A T T T h e re is a L o a notino* w a y I f hm k w m tedi he/ir tue out on l l n s -- #haf ins r anc e e o m p a n i e s b a v e Itero Itrlpl'ul T i m i h* in m a k m g e o m d s - - t o m e eounts . pel i o g r a p l w e annl ys r: ; , >md su |`(,rtli Vli ey go m i o ilte pkrnls (o moke illese an d nuikr Ihetf menda( Mli' f; VIU*: <- thi t s i i;bi( MR 0 V I A T T : I would like to add just one word if I may to the earlier question on efforts to develop adequate labeling and to standardize labeling. Those on the panel who spoke to that question failed, I think, to mention the fact that the Manufacturing Chemists5 Association at present has a law, a proposed federal law for labeling and for the far more important matter of confiscation. You can have criminal statutes all over the place, but throwing a man in jail or fin ing him $10,000 will not save the life of someone using a chemical that is not properly labeled I think this confiscation feature is all-impor tant. This new law that M C A proposes does take care of that ade quately as to the deferring of what a poison is and setting forth tests for determining a poison. Now. what will become of that law. no one knows That is the present status of the M C .A 7s efforts M O D E R A T O R A IIE A R N . Thank you D R . B A C H M A N I would like to comment m reference to earlier questions To maintain safety awareness you must say that a company has to tell its employees what the nature of the materials is which they are handling, whether they are toxic or carcinogenic, because you can never have a safety program unless you give the people working with toxic or carcinogenic materials such information. I don't think that was adequately emphasized before I think as far as the question of the most economical and best way a small plant can get help on problems of toxicity and industrial hygiene, the obvious answer is a good consultant. I don7t know if there is enough consulting work done in a continuous manner with the different smaller companies DR T H O M A S L. SH IP M A N , Los Alamos Scientific Laboratory. I would like to have this question discussed " I f a manufacturer con forms to the highest standards of an industry m the manufacture of his product, will that be a complete defense m an action against him for injuries resulting from his product?71 In placing this question before the panel, I would like to remind them of the experience of some of the electrical product manufacturer; and their difficulties with beryllium M O D E R A T O R A H E A R N Mr. Oviatt let me ask you to answer that question MR O V IA T T I think that can be categorically answered as II no There have been cases where a court has held that even though the standards of the in dusiry have been followed, ibe highest stand,i i <K Mini mule* lh<- cii cunisi anons i hose si nnd.t \ds u ai <>n 'f high \ 2K> ] enough Each individual manufacturer must assess Ins own prod noI and go beyond, under certain circumstances, the standards set by the industry. That is so even though labeling laws are followed. M O D E R A T O R A H E ARN M r. Baile, would you care to add some thing to that answer ? MR B A I L E . By wav of addition: The responsibility of the manufacturer is essentially one to conform with the standard of a n * that the law imposes Now, that standard may he imposed either by statute, by .judicial decision or by what is probably a pretty vague standard, namely, the standard of eare of a reasonable man acting under those circumstances Now, in determining whether that third standard has been met, a court or jury should take into consideration what the practices mu! standards of an industry are, but they are only a measure for the furl finder to use and are not binding upon them. In other words, the widr spread adoption of a particular method or practice will be a test for determining whether or not reasonable care was used. But Ihc court*, have said that 12 lay people, who don't know a thing about the Into ness, can say you could have used more care T can't believe f but reasonable eare can be any more than an industry would use, lioraie' I don't think industry would ever adopt, as a widespread practice, n careless practice if there were a safe one The court seems to think Mini 12 jurors can say they can. I might say, whenever I have been confronted with that problem, I have always remembered the one judge who said the only roasoimhit man he ever knew' was his wife's first husband M R S C H W E N Z F E IR , J R ., Brush Beryllium Company : I would like to have the expression of the panel on the distinction in labeling procedure between what is required for a retail product and wind tu required for industrial products. It has been inferred tlud 1 is imi particularly important to exercise greater care in labeling if Mu* product is to he handled in commercial use, though d may he in rHnil It is implied in another question that the mnmifacf m rr of the toxic material can pass the responsibility on to the corporate put chaser, who. m turn, passes the hazard on to his empmyci. i omnlm if that is really correct. M R B A I D E i f 1 u n d e i s h m d v o m (pies! ion, ,1 is Mu, W U n l h r i a m a n u i a e t m o r h a s a d u t v wi t h r e s p o r t to m v m p wj mi i i i } " . a* If* Mm ,i i J n bn i rs o i i )e 1 p m hJu H *o Ihr u ltim a t e consume1rs \\ }mtv In< no || lei s \ I o il m idd le pll te l u s o i w h o i r p a c k a g e s i! nr .onu11lu lip I ll\t- that M E SC H W E N Z F E IR , J R . . No} intermittent handler is another production concern, like this bulk packaging that was in one of the jarlier questions of the program MR. B A IL E : Your question, then, concerns the liability of the nanizfacturer who distributes m bulk to people who handle that prod uct m transportation and who are employees of the purchaser who use t m some manufacturing process? MR SC H W E N Z F E IR , J R * Right MR B A IL E - I would say by way of answering that first of all. `.C.C. regulations, of course, control to a large degree the requirenents of labeling in transportation. Now, they are designed primarily for the protection of employees who are handling it in transporta.ion. and. of course, conformance with that is required and if there s a lack of conformance and injury results to employees of carriers vho are transporting it, liability would be imposed From the standpoint of the employees of the purchaser of the product, the problem there, as I see it. is this The law imposes upon die manufacturer the obligation to give warning, reasonably ealcuated to call to the attention of the users or potential users of the product the hazards that are apparent in that product Now', notice, it is a duty of reasonableness that is imposed upon hem It would be an utter impossibility for the manufacturer of car bon tetrachloride, le t's sav, to go to every employee in every manu facturing plant that uses that and inform them as to the hazards that ire involved in the use of it So. the law recognizes, under those cir cumstances, that if the manufacturer brings to the attention of the purchaser whose employees are going to use it. the hazards of that product, or if the purchaser without having it brought to his attention s aware of the hazards of that product, then there is no obligation on :he part of the manufacturer to inform them, because the law never requires a man to do a vain act. You don't have to tell somebody the dangers in a product when he already knows them. Then the law im poses upon that employer the duty of providing his employees with a ?afe place to work and of passin g on knowledge of hazards to tla unployees so the employee can take such action and exercise such can* is is necessary for his own protection. Does that answer the question or am 1 still ntisslim it MR S( d f W K N Z F f i f E. -fR That's it Thunk \on MODERATOR 'lie lloia " A I J K A R N Now is f h n r u n o l l n t I 1 qursjm n trout MR. W W H O D G E , Koppers Company, In c.: 1 would like to hear discussion on the question of how industry can best work with governmental groups in order to be certain that regulations for the control of hazardous materials are proper and reasonable. M O D E R A T O R AH E A R N Mr Hatch, we had assigned you to answer that question. AIR. H A T C H I am not certain what the framer of this question had in mind--obviously, there are many different answers to it. Industry, presumably, does have a large volume of information that can be best utilized by working with governmental agencies in order that the proper regulations be formulated. I have in inmd one very specific wav in which industry is working with an official agem-v to make sure of proper regulations, and that is in the State of Now York, where under the procedures for developing* or regulating !i-:* for industry, it is required that an advisory committee he formulated, including representatives from the industries directly involved, ilmru* who supply equipment to he used in industry, representalives from labor unions, and so on. Now, T think the important point here is this: m the very from mg of this procedure, recognition is given to the fact that Ihr pm! lem pertaining to the use of a particular toxic substance in one pur ticular industry may he different from the problem rhaf arises in llir use of that same toxic substance in some other industry, and tlmi !< be reasonable regulations must recognize this Regulations developed from this point of view are distinguished, for example, l*mm a gone ml regulation which consists principally of a list of permissible rnueeu trations. Take carbon monoxide, for example: adequate regidid imio for control of this hazardous gas should bo different from iepnhuietm governing* its control in steel mills. This is recognized m the New York procedure, mnl prmiuumm are made for the active participation in formulation of mdtmlrv node** by those people from the industries who do have needed in format inn and experience Obviously, to be objective, it must be ayimd hy nil those who do participate that the purpose is to conn* out with a tvpju union which will, in fm t, puu,i,{, .1! health or le",d,,'l,t AYe h a d in tins room not long ago a publ i c meet i ng n l n e h hud tin some pur pose hen* m P e n n s y l v a n i a d n o i to the ofiieml adopt ton of regwlal ions pei 1a m m g to a cci him mdus* mil h a z a i d , people I n mi dir mdusl t irs who could h i i ug tmpml nnf in forma I mn and ovpei icnro to her i on tin* problem u r n 1 m \ i(r< I Io a 1!end mid e<n11i it hi le htifon n l*ons who h w on id make I lie t i na! code mom efi'rH i\ ! brio vr ! hid tln> mdiisi i ics dial do haw l o w mini mat mn should wt hui i n and u n h i d should search for opportunities to bring this information to the official agencies and work with them in translating it into reasonable regu lations* M O D E R A T O R A H E A R N * Now, we have room for about one more question Who has a question to ask? R C E R IC K S O N , Aluminum C o m p a n y of America How would you propose to bridge the gap between safety and the business re vealing trade secrets when such became necessary in the interest of safety ? D R B A C H M A N * O f course, the question of trade secrets is rather an interesting question. If you have rather a fundamental patent on a process, you usually are adequately protected L e t's try to confine ourselves to the area where we say the patent protection is not available I think this is going to be a tough one Frankly, I think about the only way that it could be handled would be--well, there are two ways I f the number of companies in volved were small, I think it likely that Company A possessing the trade secret might be quite willing to make the information available to Company B with the sole restriction that this information not be used by Company B except insofar as it was used for the purposes of protecting the health of the employees or for rendering the work safely. If the secret information or the confidential information, let us say. were to be used for purposes of profit in the manufacture of the item, there Company A would properly expect a remuneration from Company B This is fairly standard without the element of safety. There are a lot of companies today that go out and deliberately buy confidential information rather than patent information When you go beyond the relationship existing between the few companies and try and say that this is something that would be broadly applic able to a great number of companies, I don't know how you could do that except through some form of perhaps very fine social feeling, let us say social consciousness on the part of the company possessing those trade secrets and indicating a willingness to make available to their fellow countrymen at large such information 1 think that is tin* only oilier possible approach whereby you can achieve that Bo, F think you have two cases one. where the number of com panies involved are lim b ed , Ibis c,m be handled W hole the <*omp:m ios involved n*e not limited and very lai^e, then \on must depend, I behove, e:i(irei\ u p o n ihe sot !(|1 r o n x e u n i x i i r x x o| tin* m.Ui.t;;oineii( nf* {he ( ' o i i i j M M V hoI dt ' C- T 1h e i c . n l e x e c i e * j :iS(! | M O D E R A T O R A H E A R N ; You would never think if Wise N, undertake concealment if the price of concealment was to hr"a dull. culties to a man's health? D R . B A C H M A N : O f course, I am a little bit biased j ,doji'l R., lieve people are such blackguards that thc}r would do tluxe things M O D E R A T O R A H E A R N . Gentlemen. 1 think anti 'pair I,hr wishes of the audience when I express to Dr McGee, Dr ikielmuui, Mr. Baile, Mr. Oviatt. D r Zapp, and Mr Hatch, your appm dafion <(' the contribution which they have made to our knowledge Wr lia Ve had a distinguished panel, and I hope and believe that we iia\t* had a very profitable session. I would like to say on behalf of the panel, you have U<*eU ;i fotti audience. You have been very attentive and very courteous, and that has inspired the panel to do a good )ob. You have to l?uve a nd audience to have a good panel We have had both here today