Document YGyLwXO3EKbBa66OQnVmN68DN

I IN THE CIRCUIT COURT TWENTIETH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT OF ILLINOIS 2 ST. CLAIR COUNTY 3 4 F R A N C E S E. K E M N ER , et al., 5 Plaintiffs, 6 v. 7 MONSANTO COMPANY, 8 Defendant. 9 ) ) ) ) ) CAUSE NO. 80-L-970 ) ) ) ) 10 R E P O R T OF P R O C E E D I N G S 11 B e f o r e the H O N O R A B L E R I C H A R D P. G O L D E N H E R S H 12 T e s t i m o n y of Dr. G e o r g e R o u s h 13 A f t e r n o o n p r o c e e d i n g s on ly 14 J u ly 25, 1985 15 16 A P P E A R A N C E S : 17 MR. REX CARR, A t t o r n e y at Law, and MR. JEROME SEIGFREID, Attorney at Law, 18 On b e h a l f of the P l a i n t i f f s ; 19 MR. K E N N E T H HE I N E M A N , A t t o r n e y at Law, and MR. JOSEPH NASSIF, Attorney at Law, 20 On b e h a l f of the D e f e n d a n t . 21 22 23 P A T R I C I A A. GA ND Y, CSR, R P R 24 O f f i c i a l C o ur t R e p o r t e r 1 INDEX 2 WITNESSES: 3 DR. GEORGE ROUSH 4 R e c r o s s E x a m i n a t i o n by Mr. C a r r ................. 2 5 6 EXHIBITS: 7 8 D e f e n d a n t 's Exhibit 8 9 Marked Offered 8 Admitted 8 10 P l a i n t i f f ' s E x h i b i t 1516 11 P l a i n t i f f 's E x h i b i t 1509A 12 P l a i n t i f f ' s E x h i b i t 1517 13 P l a i n t i f f ' s E x h i b i t 1518 14 P l a i n t i f f ' s E x h i b i t 1517A 15 P l a i n t i f f ' s Ex h i b i t 1519 16 P l a i n t i f f ' s E x h i b i t 1519A 17 P l a i n t i f f ' s E x h i b i t 1509B 18 31 33 37 40 42 42 46 46 32 37 41 40 43 46 46 32 38 42 43 47 47 19 IN C H A M B E R S C O N F E R E N C E H E L D Pa g e 96 20 21 22 23 24 1 BE IT REMEMBERED AND CERTIFIED, that heretofore, on 2 t o - w i t : July 25, 1985, the matter as hereinbefore set forth 3 came on for he ar in g before the Ho no ra bl e Richard P. Goldenhersh, 4 Circuit Judge, Tw e n t i e t h Ju di ci al Circuit, State of Illinois, 5 and the following was had of record, to-wit: 6 7 RECROSS EXAMINATION 8 BY MR. CARR 9 Q Dr. Roush, it is a we ll k n ow n fact that the su sceptlblll 10 of v a r i o u s an imal sp e c i e s t o the toxic e f f e c t s of d i o x i n v a ri es 11 f r o m sp e c i e s to species, is n 't that correct, sir? 12 A Yes, sir. 13 Q It is also k n o w n th at the e f fe ct u p o n h u m a n s v a r i e s from 14 p e r s o n to p e r s o n w h e n ex po s ed to dioxin, i s n 't that c o r r e c t ? 15 A I don't know. 16 Q Well, y o u know, Dr. Roush, that p e o p l e w o r k i n g in the 17 same d e p a r t m e n t , h a v i n g the sane e v e r y d a y ac t i v i t y , one p e r s o n 18 w o r k i n g at that m a c h i n e can get c h l o r a c n e and his f e l l o w w o r k e r 19 not, y o u k n o w that f r o m at least not fr o m s t u d i e s that y o u 20 p e r f o r m e d , at least from st ud ie s that M o s e s / S e l i k o f f p e r f o r m e d , 21 do y o u not, sir? 22 A Yes, sir. 23 Q As a m a t t e r of fact , the M o s e s / S e l i k o f f s t ud y showed tha 24 of the p e o p l e w i t h a m o d e r a te e x p o s u r e to d i o x i n in yo ur plant, * I 49 percent never did get chloracne, isn't that correct, sir? 2 A Yea, 9ir. 3 Q And for that matter, 24 percent of the people with 4 heavy exposure never did get chloracne, isn't that also correct,] 5 sir? 6 A No, sir. Q7 I' m sorry? 8 A No, sir. Q9 W o u l d y o u give the w i t n e 10 And Dr. Roush, p l e a s e turn to Pa 211 and you wi l l see F i g u r e at the 12 H o s e s / S e l i k o f f table d e a l i n g w i t h c h l o r a c n e status, do you see 13 that, sir? 14 A Yes, sir. IS Q And w h e n y o u look to the r i g h t - h a n d si de of that figure,] 16 y o u w i l l see there the p e o p l e w h o h a v e had h e a v y e x p o s u r e to 17 2,4,5-T, 24 p e r c e n t n e v e r did get c h l o r a c n e , isn't that correct, 18 sir? 19 A No, sir. 20 Q Do c t o r , are you l o o k i n g at the s a m e -- y o u see w h e r e it 21 says m o d e r a t e e x p o s u r e 49 p e r c e n t n e v e r did get ch l o r a c n e , 22 yo u see that, sir? 23 A Yes, sir. 24 Q And yo u a g r e e that she did so find that p e o p l e wi t h 1 moderate exposure 49 percent d i d n 't get chloracne, never did 2 have chloracne, did you not agree to that, Dr. Roush? Dr. Roust 3 did you understand my question? I'm asking you did you not 4 agree just a moment ago that according to Moses/Selikoff study, 5 49 pe rcent of the w o r k e r s who had m o d e r a t e exposure to it never 6 did get chloracne? 7 A No, sir. 8 MR. CARR: Would you read his answers back to that 9 question that I asked? 10 (The p r e v i o u s q u e s t i o n , "As a m a t t e r of fact, the II M o s e s / S e l i k o f f s t ud y s h ow ed that of the p e o p l e w i t h 12 a m o d e r a t e e x p o s u r e to d i o x i n in y o u r plant, 49 13 p e r c e n t n e v e r did get c h l o r a c n e , i s n 't that co rr ec t, 14 sir?" was re ad by the r e p o r t e r , and the f o l l o w i n g 15 a n s w e r was "Yes, sir." 16 Q And d o e s n ' t M o s e s S e l l k o f f also show, and th at 's found 17 in this table, that s t a t e m e n t that yo u just a g re ed w i t h ? This 18 table, 18 it not, sir, on Pa ge 171 of M o n s a n t o E x h i b i t 90 8? 19 A Yes, sir. 20 Q And that is the s o u r c e of y o u r k n o w l e d g e that 49 percent 21 of the p e o p l e w i t h m o d e r a t e e x p o s u r e to 2 , 4 , 5 - T or d i o x i n n e v e r 22 did get ch lo r a c n e , n e v e r h a d c h l o r a c n e , isn't that the so ur ce 23 of that knowledge, sir? 24 A No, sir. Q Do you have other Information from your own sources 1 other than the M o s e s / S e l l k o f f study that 49 percent of the 2 people exposed to dioxin never did get chloracne? 3 A I 'm r e a d i n g fr o m the p a r a g r a p h above. 4 Q Excuse me, do you have that information from some other 5 source? 6 A This source. 7 Q Then this is the source of your knowledge? 8 A Yes, sir 9 Q Now, D o c t o r , the table also in a d d i t i o n to the 49 10 percent in the moderate category also has a heavy category, 11 do esn't it, sir, i m m e diately to the right of that, Dr. Roush, 12 are you looking at the page, do you see that, sir? 13 A Yes, sir. 14 Q And doesn't it show by that table that 24 percent of IS the workers who had heavy exposure to 2,4,5-T never had chlora 16 A No, sir. 17 Q Does it show that 49 pe rc en t h a v i n g m o d e r a t e e x p o s u r e 18 never had chloracne? 19 20 A No, sir. 21 Q Now, D o c t or , y o u just said a m o m e n t ago that it did. 22 Do ct or , w h a t are y o u d o in g? D o e s n ' t this tabl e that I h a v e in 23 front of me, does it h a v e a graph w i t h the w o r d s 24 p e r c e n t 24 above it, sir? 1 A Yes, sir. 2 Q And does it have u n d e rn ea th it heavy? 3 A Yes, sir. 4 Q And is it de scribing exposure, heavy exposure to 2,4,5-1 5 sir? 6 A No, sir. 7 Q D o e s n 't it say 2, 4,5-T exposure, sir? 8 A Yes, sir. 9 Q And isn't it d e s c ri bi ng heavy, mo derate, m i n i m a l and 10 none? 11 A No, sir. 12 Q Do ctor, read the w o r d s b e l o w the graph. Do they not 13 say none, m i n i m a l , m o d e r a t e and h e a v y ? 14 A Yes, sir. 15 Q A n d does it not say i m m e d i a t e l y u n d e r that 2, 4 , 5 - T 16 e x p o s u r e ? 17 A Yes, sir. 18 Q A n d are th ey not r e f e r r i n g to the e x p o s u r e of th es e 19 w o r k e r s b a s e d u p o n thei r r e c a l l of t h ei r job a s s i g n m e n t s ? 20 A Yes, sir. 21 Q And do they not find that 24 p e r c e n t of th os e p e o p l e 22 w i t h h e a v y e x p o s u r e n e v e r did have, n e v e r had c h l o r a c n e ? 23 A No, sir. 24 Q Doctor, do yo u see that co lu mn there that says 24 perceo 1 A " Yes', isir. ' , . ` *' 2 Q A n d .isn't' that a w h i t e c o l u m n ? 3. A Yes, sir. 4 Q And is there a .table .that tells you what the white means 5 A- Yes, sir. 6 Q A n d Jw'jh*a t ; d^oe`is it* i,say 4-,,for. white t`h. for the; c o l o r white? 7 . A Never ha d chloracne.'', ' 8 Q All right. And is there a white column, sir, under s.; ' 1 i s ` 9 the heavy? ' 10 A Y e s , sir>r - -> 11 Q A n d w h a t ' s the n u m b e r s a b o v e the w h i t e c o l u m n ? - 12 ' A 24. .^ ; 13 ^ Q 24 p e r c e n t ? 14 A Yes, s i r . 15 Q Now, D o c t o r , isn' t that s a y i n g the c h l o r a c n e s t a t u s for 16 24 p e r c e n t of t h e s e p e r s o n s w h o sa id th ey h a d h e a v y e x p o s u r e 17 to 2 , 4 , 5 - T by v i r t u e o f 't h e i r job a s s i g n m e n t n e v e r h a d c h l o r 18 A No, sir. . .; ,, 19 MR. CARR: Y o u r Ho no r, I'd like to take a m o m e n t and 20 pa ss E x h i b i t 908 to the jury. I d i d n ' t ' e x p e c t th at r e s p o n s e 21 and I'd li ke to pa ss 908 to the j u r y b e f o r e I contin ue . T H E COURT: Has 908 b e a n .a d m i t t e d ? MR. CARR: It's b e e n ,r e f e r r e d to b y - - M o n s a n t o b r o u g h t it up r* J * 1 L THE-COURT:- D o - y o u h a v e any o b j e c t i o n to .that being, -, 2 - -passed to, the Jury?. 1 ;r . " 3- r r -MR.- H E I N E M A N : ,,Yoiir Ho no r, w e w o u l d c e r t a i n l y m o v e the admission Into evidence' of this exhibit, D e f e n d a n t 's Exhibit ;'4 V 5 J 908.- .' ; . .7 * : `. ^ " 6 . rjCDefandanteslExK-ibit''908'was o f f e r e d Into e v i d e n c e ) v . > -if';; ^ , C ^ 'y V ' - 7- V 7; / THE 'COURT: Any-objection?' /} r :, 1 L - -' " " r".* y. C" *: ..: "y ' *y ^ ` ~y , .. ' -S' . .. v M R . ' CARR:/t W e l l pVWQ.Vcertainly'would a g r e e to' Its 9 admission. 1 . THE, r -, COURT: .\ "; F{__*iy. n^diJi,*r*^i'9--t0\8i-l-)<I s admitted without objection by 11 a g r e e m e n t , s i n c e it h a s - b e e n admitted, y o u m a y pass; any p a r t of, .12 < it to, the jury; y ,J- './'/ ' 'y L' ' `'. 13 y ( D e f e n d a n t 's ^Exhibit ,,908 w a s admitted-,Into e v i d e n c e 14 r " MR. CARR: I only, h a y e the one copy, y o u r H o n o r . I'd .15 ? ` *l,,i k e to-have,; the Jury look i * ' ' t l _ atL it and i I ndirect J y o'u*rj a t t e n t i o n 1- , f + - - _ " .< r- jV ` " "V 16 , ' to t h e ' l e g e n d that says c h l o r a c n e st at us , and t h e n *ov er to the 1 y\ * ._ j t% -x ^ h ' - 1 , * w/ , 17 I m m e d i a t e l e f t - h a n d side;, w h e r e It s a y s L h e a v y ,/and t h e - g r a p h on 18- `that. " ,,: *V. y / j" 19 / -'.V T H E COURT: ^ While, t h a t 1s y b e i n g d o n e , g e n t l e m e n , I fd lik<! 20 "! ;21 :to see y o u y a t 1.the be nc h, and ,1'd li ke your,, c o p y . V t :\ '1- * MR. H E I N E M A N : " Sure, y ' v. '7 ,` 22 : L (An off-the-record discussion was held y y J 23 ' "y at the b e n c h i). ,, ,J - ;,, 24 V-' -MR. CARR:- .And for the re co rd , I' ve m a d e n o t e s on. my BAYONNE N.J. 07002 ' FORM t\ V 24 B 1 copy, so please don't turn'to any page other than that page, otherwise 2 you might see something not proper for you to see. Your Honor, we will 3 make copies of that page at the next breaks 4 THE COURT: ` Fine. 5 BY HR. CARR:J -V-: !' `\.V r,ft *. K . . t i, 6 Q. Doctor, Inasmuch as 1 can't get you to agree to that graph,. 7 I'll use that part*, that you, do* agree with. 49 percent of those people 8 with moderate exposure according to the Moses/Sel.Ikoff table never had * . , . ' \ ` ; 9 chloracne. Now, Doctor, you also know that from your experience at Nltro 10 that some workers exposed to 2,4,5"T and/or dioxin get liver changes and 11 others don't, you know that too, don't you, sir? . 12 A Yes, sir. 13 Q, You know that the symptoms that followed your 1949 accident 14 varied that not everybody had the same problem, some would have one IS problem or two or three or four problems and soma might have just one7 16 A Yes,' sir. . 17 Q Or some might have a half a dozen, they vary? 18 A Yes sir. 19 Q And so the susceptibility to toxic substances like 2,3,7,8 TCBD jJ 20 does vary from human to human, doesn't It, sir? 21 A No, sir. 22 Q. Doctor, If 49 percent of the people having moderate exposure never 23 do get chloracne, that Is a different variant effect from the .effect on the 24 51 percent that-do get chloracne, Isn't It, sir? :* -* >P 1 A No, sir, 2 Q. Doctor,- Isn't chloracne different from no chloracne? 3 A , Yes,t s Ir.,. i^. . 1 \\ 4 Q, Al 1 ;rtghf. 'And the.people 'that "got ch loracne-- 5 A' Yes, sir. ^ 1. ( \ *. ' ^ ^ i. r rt "1 J Q, Got a; different health"effect from that exposure to dioxin than 6 7 the AS percent of the people, that tdId not,get chloracne, didn't they, sir? ` , i-t *,1 , v >i ' ') .. _ ' * i t - ^ '* . '- > A No, sir. 8 9 Q Isn't chloracne a health effect? A , Yes, sir. 10 Q. Some people had It and some people didn't? n 12 A Yes, sir. Q Seme people had thathealth effect? 13 14 A Yes, sir. -* Q. And some people did not have that health effect? 15 A Yes., sir. 16 17 Q And that's a difference, Isn't It, sir? 18 A Yes, sIr. F , 19 Q, ' And that's my question, Doctor, there are different health 20 effects that occurred In the same, from person to person? 21 A Yes, sir. 22 Q. As shown by that kS percent and 51 percent? 23 A Yes, sir. 24 Q, Now, Doctor, we do know that dI oxIn. has now been found fairly 1 universally In the United States In the fat of most people.at some level. 2 He know that, don't we, sir? 3 A Yes> sj r.' , `i `' '* r r-, ^. ' ' 4 Q, And Doctor, we also know that some people that smoke never, ever i ^ fj t ^ .>- i 5 get emphysema or lung cancer; we know that;:don't we, sir? 6 A Yes, sir. 7 Q. And we, know that some people that are overweight and that don't S exercise never,,,ever get heart disease? A Yes,s Ir; 9J 10 Q We know that, don't we, sir? A Yes, sir. II 12 Q, So there Is a difference between the susceptibility, Is there not, sir? 13 14 A Yes, sir. Q. Now, Is It possible, Doctor, that the reason that one person 15 16 who Is overweight gets heart disease and that another person that Is over weight and doesn't get heart disease, Isn't ft possible that these people 17 18 can have a different reaction to the dioxin to which they have been exposed 19 rather than any other cause? Isn't that possible, Doctor, that dioxin 20 makes the difference In whether one gets a Heart attack or doesn't get a heart attack being overweight? 21 .' A No, sir. ' i Q. That Isn't posstblo, Doctor? J *i 9 A No, sir. i'* 12 1 3. 4 5r 67- y 8 9 10\ ' 11 .Q. And Doctor, we know that people can have different^effects from dloxlIn, chior,acnhe,jno chlor'a<*cne->/sco;rr-ec/t;, sir? tV * ''1- =/;f^ MV!/ -'v-'-v ' - 1 .' 4 - '> .. ,V- . : , A Ask 'that question again, please? ''.'ir r"- 'il;-# ;(Prdv Ipus q:juU(est Ion -was \read, by hthe reportor) '-4 r.:i*'V>- $/'f / / . : ` -,/ ' A' .Noy sir." ' r.,1 \\ r / . -r ;L ' ,* ' \ ! .i .* , \ *1jMt ->,;;! tv'-'?'tV''- !.*j'`5;JI-1' -,.,l '- . * ' -, MR. CARR:'* Your'Honor, 1 don't feel like spending the rest of.my life establishing a point established several times already..'Would It be appropriate that the Court1might Instruct the witness to order him. that he has agreed that.there are different-- that some people get chloracne being-- ' ** 4f,* ' , - <V exposed to It. and others don't? 1 -, r .. LTHE: COURT ? vl believe-- : rii/'; 13 MR/ HE,1NEMAN: .Your Honor, may I comment on that?. , THE'COURT: Yes. , / . . \ '- 1.4; ' MR;: HE INEMAN: My objection to,what Mr. ?Carr. Is-poslng Is that he : - 15 ; continually changes the question with this wltnessand the witness Is 16 answering the.specific question.being asked;at a specific time, and ho.keeps >17- 1 changing back and goes back to another question that Ke*s asked, and I .18 . don*'t. tVhink, I*t's-falr to j%n"st'ruct "this iwitness to., giLve,*a particular answer-- t 19 that he's given a particular; answer without giving him .a chance to 20 explain this, answer. v ", jL THE COURT: vThot^was exactly the. same question/' It was'not * . 21 s * v* changed, It was stated clearly In plain.EnglIsh and your objection as to 22 23 that particular question Is notjaccurate. / It's overruled..' Doctor, -I'm / ' JJ> 24 ' ordering you to1assume that you "have given that answer/. You are to. take .K, . : DAVQNNE, NJ. 1 that as a basis; for your further answers unless I Instruct you otherwise 2 do you understand; Doctor? " " * 'V i 3 A I don't understand the question^ Wo have to talk about the specif 1 4 question then. ' J * * \ "' ,j * 5 THE COURT: This specific question that you were last requested-- 6 A Could I have that last question? 7 THE COURT: I'll have"the reporter read It back for you. You 8 are to assume that you did answer yes to that question. 9 A All right, sir. 10 THE COURT: You have a number of times and you.are to continue that assumption and any further questions that are asked of you unless I 11 12 Instruct you otherwise; Would you read back that question please? 13 (The previous question, "And Doctor, we know that people can have different effects from dioxin, chloracne, no 14 chloracne, correct, sir?" was read by the reporter.) 15 16 A "The answer to that Is yes. 17 Q. Now, Doctor, that being the case, may It not be also possible 18 that one person could be overweight all hts life and never get a heart attack except, never get a heart attack. Isn't that possible, sir? 19 20 A Yes, slr. ' Q, .And Isn't It possible that that same person being In that 21 22 situation could get an exposure to dioxin and that dioxin, because of what 23 It can do to the cardiovascular system, Isn't It possible that that Is the 24 cause or at the very least a contributing cause to that heart attack? 1 A Mo, sir. 2 Q That Isn't possible, Doctor? 3 A No, sir. 4 Q. Doctor, for you to give that answer, you have to Ignore Table 7* 5 do you not, sir? 6 7' .8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 A Yes, sir. Q. Yes. And your answer Is based upon the fact that you don't agree that cardiovascular disorders can result from dioxin exposure. Isn't that correct, sir? A No, sir. Q. That Isn't correct? A(Witness iy .)responded byshaking.head negative ,i Q. And Doctor, then do you agree that cardiovascular disorder can be caused by dtoxln7 'A No, sir. Q, And Doctor, your answer that the cardiovascular problem Is not caused by dioxin In a particular heavy person, then, Is not based upon a disagreement with the statement that cardiovascular disorders can be caused by dioxin, Is that correct,sir*? .A No, sir. Q, Doctor, let me do It one more time. A Yes, sir. / .> j :- r Q. ' One person can smoke all' his life and hot get lung cancer, right, sir? 1 A Yes, sir, 2 Q. And people vary In how they reset to various toxic substances, 3 don't they, sir? 4 A Yes, sir. ^ . 5 Q And that'has been demonstrated time and time again, hasn't It, 6 sir? 7 A YeSj sir. 8 Q, And Doctor, one person can get a heart attack and another person 9 not simply because of being overweight, correct, sir? 10 A Yes, sir. II Q. Isn't It possible that a cardiovascular disorder can be caused or 12 contributed to be caused then in an overweight person not because he or 13 she Is overweight, but because he or she now, since-the AOs that we are 14 now all getting In us from the Lysol, from the 2,A-D, from the 2,A,5-T, IS fran other chemicals that have been manufactured by chemlcal companies. 16 Isn't It possible, Dr. Roush, that that Is a contributing factor In the 17 Increased cardiovascular heart disease rate? 18 A No, sir. 19 Q. Doctor, you know that we have the dioxin In us, you know that, 20 sir? 21 A Yes,1sir. ' ' ; v * -J' ; . ! .... V 22 0. And you know that seme people have more than others, don't you, 23 sir? '; , ' - i 24 A Yes, sir. `jui'iTr*'. /, 16 ''1; ; 2\ 3 ' 4/ , \5. 6- ', 7 ! / 8- j Q, i Have you ever seen'astudy, Doctor, that did In fact disprove . that dioxin Inthe tissue/ In the fat tissue. If youkwtli, can contribute J' V // ' V,`,l' ` /\ "f- - to cause a heart attack? ... .-JV>--J , . 'A * No, sir. " ; . 'V . \ ' - ^ ' > .*' ^; / * '' // 4. Now, Doctor, If you haven't seen the study then-; then when you say no, that It.can't .do ft, you're saying' It not based upon any scientific tudy, ,Isn't that correct, sir? * 'A No, sir. ^ v 1 '\ '" _ "J` : * ;- 9 - '<t- That isn't correct?1 J1 ' '/ ` .1, r - 10 : lb 12, 13 14 15 -16 A j -No, ;sSr. *' - /_^ * ' yvy'Wm*\ ^ ;4 .. r < , :^ `^ ^ (i Then Doctor, 4*VI askryou again, Have you seen ,e scientific *,. 4p -iI ** * " hi . A -* * fc` -r * < \ based'upon whether dr. not people with dioxin7In their fat tissue are more v ' - ' iV1' - ^ ' ' . ` --V - ^ or less susceptible to heart attacks? ,. -1- ' \ ,- A. "No^ sir..- 1 J\ - ; /. ;r * w^ m,-M L ' J l* .,, 4 ` Li , .^ - , -t ,, r ' V Cl .. Is, there any study that w>.uId suggest that people In the If fat tissue afe more, or less susceptible to heart attacks? r . L .-17 : '18: A9\ 20/ 21. 22 '23 24 ' "A No/ slfy ^ 'y 1 ; 'v Q 'AhdDoctor, you have no scientific study:dealing with that" subject then, Isn't that corfeCt? ! . ; .... . ' . *A; Y e s , i s T f . f . -? . . \ - ; V ` r- . 1 1 : M-i-, i> ,-.iA..-^ tv i5- , , --,1 -1 1 .!'*< d* 0hr youjdo?^ S S * ,k"- ! ' \ > I ' J 'i ) . . ' ' -, ,, - " \ 1 A . V *^ ^V " tr '^ <-J ( 'l 'L i -,*** y ^ f' -> :. " ; - -E ^^ Not.to-the dioxin In'fat, no, sir.?/, * ?.' V, 1- -1 P V t ' ' i 4\ '' jt J '* - ,- ` ^ xIy ; . ' -1 ^-1'. * k /.r'` _ ` . Q.' 1 A H right/ And, doctor^/If you have"'no scientific studies that . . , a* t r. ,,t * -1 jj.-1-" *. 's : /' ' L' '' 1 ; . 'ti *.* . say It cannot1causV*e fJo'r*.c'o' n1t' ribute to 7ic*au*''"s-pt*:a>*hear" t* aJtrtac^k-, t' hTonyo-u h- ave ^ \ - r '* -/l - ' 1' B4Y0NNE. N.J. OTOOJ FORM IL 24 0 "f'* ', 1.7 1 . hobasls other than your speculation tip the effect that/It may not be a' / 2 contrlbutlng causo? 'v -r /;'V . 3 , 1 - A- 'Ho, sir.. \ 4. d Isn't that correct, sir? I V : j No, sir.' ^^ * : 6 Q, YJhat other basis do you have, Dr. Roush? : . " ,. * A This Hoses study. ^ 7. J ", ' '-<T Doctor, the,Hoses study supported that-heart attacks'were caused , ~8 . V \ / , ; "/ - :'V - * ''.J - *'' - v; 3 , -9 by exposure to chemicals. The Moses, study said exactly the-same thing, 10 It said those people living In that, valley-had a 3k percent er yours was I `L I ` - . l 1` . r .* H-l ' J ,1 ' .. 11 3k percent,' she didn't place a figure, she Just saId the peop1e IIvIhg.1n 12- that valley, 1Ike the Monsanto workers, havea higher death rate from heart 13 attack than the people ln the rest of.the United States, that's what she 14- Said. -V. ' " '' J L ^ IS, -/ A `Yes,c sir. * `V ; : /\ V ` * V' ,v --Jj' ,L' \ * 16 , Q, , Artd that's'alt she1said.. ' , ..." "I"- " "*r j y *, ' : .V' , *v -. .* 17 ' r A- ' NoV.StrV *. , 18 Q. , Point1out.to me where she said something else* Doctor* Let me . 19 help you;-Doctor., The subject^was discussed. on Page 17,8^ \ '* V V ;; t: Vi ;; ^'VV ' l -1 'V * 5 . ' ' "> A - Y e s ^ s i r i W ' ' :.V.V.-Vy-- 20 -J `r ' \ ` ---- 21; ' Q Now pjease'point Out to me whare she said that dioxin or chenlcali ^ j i, - V I I * ' ' ' l'. J V 1 , 'T , r ;r -k:\ V v V - s'; '''' 'V ' V r' L- -v" : ,,22 from these p 1ants -did' notaf feet theca rd Iovascu 1ar d Isease rate 'In Kanavfha 23 Valley. * ;jtt.t* 1 j v,;- i'.i: r' *^'iv;\^ atf"v a.\ s;. 24 She .-found3no d Ifforence ln- BAYONNE. N.J. 4 1 Q, Excuse me, Doctor- Read the language that she used that says *` \ `i 2 the cardiovascular heart,disease rate In Kanawha Valley was not caused by this Monsanto plant and otherstllke It? 1 3 MR. HEI NEMAN: Objection, your .Honor. He's changed the question 4 again. 5 MR. CARR: Read the question back exactly. 6 7 MR. HElNEMAN: May I make my objection? The prior question to Dr. Roush was your allegation that she did say that It does that, and he 8 9 disagreed-- MR. CARR: On the contrary. He was the one-- 10 H THE COURT: The questions, wore the same. The only difference 12 was when the witness started to paraphrase. He asked him to read the 13 exact language and that's the only difference In the questions. Your 14 objection Is overruled. Doctor,. If you have located such language, please 15 read It. Go ahead. 16 A ! thought you were going to ask her to reread the exact-- oh, I'm 17 sorry. "Failure to find significant differences In coronary heart disease 18 In those without chloracrie Is not a-- " "Failure to find significant 19 difference In coronary heart disease In those with and without chloracne 20 In this study Is not a definitive finding due to the cross sectional nature 21 of the study and. as stated, no chloracne Is, not synonymous with no exposure. Q. Now, Doctor, that's referring not to the people tn.the Kanawha 22 23 Valley, that's referring to the workers comparing the so-called unexposed 24 with the exposed workers? 1 A Yes, Sir. _ t* * " * ' " \ -' 2 *- : \ F ' * Q, My question was directed to the Kanawha Valley do you remember 3 that, sir? 4 A Yes, sir. 5 Q- Please find for me the statement In there, and It's In the next 6 paragraph, Doctor. . 7 A Yes, sir. 8 Q. Please find for me any statement that suggests to you or that sayjs 9 to you that the cardiovascular heart disease In Kanawha Valley was caused 10 by something other than these plants and the Monsanto plant In particular located In that valley? . 11 12 A There Is none. 13 Q. Indeed, there Is none because what she says Is, "Mortality from 14 cardiovascular disease Is known to be higher than national rates In the 15 Kanawha Valley of West Virginia where the plant Is located.11 16 A Yes, sir. 17 0. That's exactly what she says, and that's all she says with the 18 Kanawha Valley, Isn't that correct, sir? 19 A Yes; sir. 20 Q There Is not a single other reference In this document other 21 than the one I've Just read, Isn't that correct, sir? ` 22 A You're right, yes, sir. 23 CL Now, Doctor, that being the case, this cardiovascular disease 24 in the Kanawha Valley can be higher there among the people that are overwejjj S 1 because they are exposed to these chemicals that are discharged fran the 2 Monsanto plant,Jamong others; isn't' that correct? 3 A Mo, sir. 4 Q, And Doctor, Is there anything, you said the Moses/SelIkoff study 5 supported ybur statement, Is there any other study that you are aware of 6 that you think may support your statement? 7 A t think the Susklnd study does it as well. 8 Q. Does It as well as what? 9 A As this one, makes the same statement. 10 Q. It makes the same statement, but. Doctor, that doesn't In any way support what you sey that the cardiovascular disease Is not caused 11 12 by the chemicals, does It, sir? 13 A Yes, sir. 14 Q. Doctor, do you Interpret this, the single statement made, IS "Mortality from cardiovascular disease Is known to bo higher than.national 16 rates In the Kanawha Valley of West Virginia where the plant Is located," 17 you Interpret'that to mean that there Is support for your theory that the 18 chemical piants.have not caused the cardiovascular disease, right? 19 A Yes, sir. 20 Q Doctor, the plain implication of It is to the contrary, Is It not 21 A No, sir. 22 Q. What tn that sentence tells you that this cardiovascular, disease 23 is not caused by.these chemical plants and the Monsanto plant tn particular? 24 What in that sentence, sir? F, . ,, r ' ,,. -- l ^ v- .. , < > > h ",, , r .n - ; L s f Z ---v- , i . , " - J ' .1 *,ij * v* : . : - ,;f j * 1 f -r ' t.'"V '''V *r.' ' L .* rV lj v .j.i- ii ' f ' i,if. J. . * ' f --iW- Z' ^ ?.t , - j. - . ...';7 1 rrI,< ` .' , -t"' ' Z1 . ji 1 --1 1 ' A '* -The fact that the; mortal Ity ?|n^the plant Is the sente as It Is ;Jy -. ; .XrV'i * ^ . `1- ,<r^ \ ; r,` 2;-; in Kanawha Valley, that's what, supports It; .\ Q 1 _ Doctor,1 they're all people living In the'Kanawha Valley, the' ,3. . 4 5 l.' -r .7 '8 . 9 10; '* 'S 11 12 ; people working In your plant and the people: living In the Valley, they are exposed .to the same1chemicals. - How does that support your statement that these chemicals have not caused.the cardiovascular disease? Your workers, have got the problenr,Lj,the people that, live In th^Valley have got .. the problem,, how can you say that that statement supports .your belief v . that It hasn11- caused Ijt?- _ . ; ~L '- A . Because our .exposure Is'so high.' rif there was. an'association, : v j.. , _ -] \ 7 / then the. higher exposure would have more cardiovascular disease, and 'N J'`' , ; ' v. '- *v .*. -V vl . /they don't. f /V , }\` ' r , 'v y r/ k , , *t 13 L ( (1 What scientific study showed that, Doctor? u , ., -V . 'j- r j ' ^ ^. ` r' >- Vvf - J r 14 , / ' ` ^ A . The fact that-- -;1' r ' - : ' 1 : V " Q Excuse me, what scientific study showed that you have to have' 15 16 \ 17 . 18. 19 a greater exposure to dioxin or the chemicals to have heart disease? - J_ A That's related to "the fact that with more exposure .you. get more effect* Thafcis a dose response-- ! - -i Q ^ The only thing you'ever said was you get more chloracne, but BAYONNE. N.J. 07001 FOAM IL 14 B 20 / we've also shown people working right'next' to, one.another In .moderate 21 22 1 23' 24 exposure, half will get chloracne and.half.won't. - A - No, sir. k, i e- a You didn't A No, sir; 1 d We didn't Just go through the table, the Moses/Selikofr table, 2 and you agreed that percent had chloracne? 3 A Yes, sir. 4 Q. ' Had no chloracne, and 51 percent did? 5 A Yes, sir. 6 Q And they were all people In the moderate exposure group? 7 A Yes, sir. * ' ,. 8 Q. Nov/, Doctor, that being the case, the cardiovascular rate In thts 9 study has no connection with anything other than.the chemical exposure? A No, sir. 10 Q Where Is there something In this study, sir, that says the heart 11 12 disease rate Is different, sir? 13 A It Is the same. 14 Q Doctor, and as a matter of fact. It Is the same amongst the IS workers that have chloracne and the workers that don't have chloracne, Isn't 16 It, sir? 17 A Yes, sir. 18 d And doesn't that Just maybe support the theory* Doctor? 19 A No, sir. 20 Q, That the-- that this cardiovascular disease Is caused by the fact 21 that there Is a variance? 22 A No, sir. 23 Q, Even with people, some people get one effect and not another? 24 A No, sir. d 1 & . Well, we know that Is the case, don't we, slr7 2 A No, sir. -3 Q, Doctor, we just established, you agreed with me at the start of 4 this that some people react one way to dloxlrt *n your own plant they do 5 that. We established that to start with, don't you remember, sir? 6 A Yes, sir. 7 Q Now, keep that In mind, Doctor. A Yes, sir. 8 9 Q Now, If the dioxin can cause one effect In one kind of person 10 and can cause a different effect In another kind of person, can't It, sir? 11 A No, sir. ' * 12 Q. It can't, sir? 13 A No, sir. 14 Q. Now, Dr. Roush, then i must admit that I am at a loss how to ask 15 you questions If your experience hasn't taught you that dioxin has varying 16 effects upon different people a s 'you've agreed that ft has, and you have 17 agreed that If has? ` 18 A Yes, sir. J 19 Q If It has varying effect on different people, can It not have 20 varying effect on other people as Well? - ' -j t 21 A it all depends oh what offeet'you are talking about. i ' ._ i 22 Q. Health effects, Doctor*-one or more, little, big; Insignificant, 23 great big ones, little bitty ones, different effects, that's what I am 24 talking about. j i A Yes, sir. 2 Q Now, Doctor, If It'affects different people In different ways, 3 doesn't It, sir? 4 A No, sir. 5 Q. Doctor; didn't we establish that It affected your workers In 6 different ways? Your workers are people, aren't they, sir? 7 A Yes, sir. 8 Q. They have been affected In different ways, haven't they, sir? A Yes, sir. 9 10 Q. Therefore, dioxin does affect different people In different ways, 11 doesn't It, sir? 12 1 A No, sir , 13 G The people are, your workers are people, aren't hey? 14 A Yes, sir. 15 Q And they have been affected In different ways, haven't they, sir? 16 A Yes, sir. 17 Q. And It follows then, does It not, sir, that dioxin affects a ir r e r e r 18 people In different ways? 19 A No, sir. . 20 Q Doctor, do you see the Inconsistency In what you are saying? 21 A No, sir.. 22 Q. You don't seethat? . . . 23 A Ho, sir. 24 Cl All right, If you don't see It, Doctor. Doctor-- strike that. The - 7 r' .'J '^ 1 ** *^ 1>i S' 25 people that arei s'fck In a hospital may be affected more intensely or more - / \ ^ , J ^r'. /#, 7 * - /^' / > rn' s' 'st,J\ / > . :(^J1 ,'-> ' nI ,, - t sign Ifjcant Iy by exposure: to, tox 1c subs tances than peop 1e.who are. well, ,' 1 r L 'tT \ ' -J f 1" "jo- . ^ ^,'<r * r r t A ^ *_ rv ^ j ^ i_ -r 3 Isn't that correct, sir?. / ^ ~ * / * / 1 ( -- *< * - * t t^ - * r .. fcJj ~*C * t* ,, 4. V 1i *> ' ,% 1 4 ' .P ;A\ 'Yes,-sir. ' ' , . " /' 5 . ./ Q. And that can.affect different people In different ways,^can't It, 6 sir? T . ' -What' can affect dlfferent/people* 1yP H ,` 9. . Q. Toxic,substances on .sick people/ A Yes, sir. 10 : lP 'rQ%: ' S1me...'p>eople "react`di1ff,erently, sme s.ick,pe;;op.le .will react di1ffereditly than other sick.people, won't they, sir?/ 12 13 ^ c. 14' A, .Yes^slr/ -'/; /\; ; ' . Q, To toxic substances?/': A ' Yes/ sir. .' - j / ;\ /: ; ^ \ '//-* Q. And dioxin-Is.a toxic substance?' 15' ' ./ v"r v k - A Yes, /sir/ 16 1f *^ ; : > '" - /''-.////- _ ' -t. >v ' 4 * i ; -/ ' / "/ ; ' ^' , f / * .. 1 ^ 17 Q, .And will not sick people react differently from person to person 18 to dioxin exposure? " \ "/ 19 , 20 ' . A No, sir/ 'V ; `r . . ., r Q. ' Doctor, d you see any inconsistency In thatranswer arid/your / 21.. - previous answer? / . , -/' /; -`" ; ; ( -i. 22 A NO, sir; no, sir. ,, / - . 23 / ;Q, 1 And there Is nnootthhilnngg yyou ..wwiisshh ttoo.,*ssaayy-;JInn addition? \ ,fi !'> ij > 1j 24 A Yes,'Sir. > ; i ,f ->V ;ijf T '1 1* - .` - -f.` J.. j . . . V , - , t 'i' 1 ' J* * r ' * '' `\J l , ^ 'J , %r * .- . - 1* - -. - .- ' v ` - " -i.; 0AVONNE. N.J. Q Sir? A Yes, sir. ,. Q There Is something you wish to say In addition to that? A Yes, sir. There Is a minimal exposure that's going to produce an effect. There Is a level at-which you don't see effect from all chemtcals, including dioxin. That's the.reason most of us don't have any J -r problem with dioxin. The man In the hospital exposed to a level of dioxin that we can't measure Is not affecting that man. If there Is a sufficient dose, the man who Is In the hospital wl11-get, sick, whereas a man who Is not sick with the same exposure, probably wi ll not have an effect. (1 , That's exactly my point, thank you, Ooctor. That's exactly what >' L I have been trying to establish. Different people1 react differently to the seme dose. A Yes, sir, 1 ' Q. A sick person with a dose can get sick/ Now, the same thing is true of people that have diker things that may affect their, health. Given the same dose, that dose can affect one person one way and a different person*another way, can it hot* sir? f A I don't know. Q Doctor, didn't we jtist get through that, sir1? Didn't you'Just agree that the same dose Would affect a sick person one way and a healthy person a different way,, or would have no,effect on a healthy person? -, ' ' ~i \r 'r ' 1' ! A For the sane dose; v . ' * Q. The same,dose? i- 1 A * Yes, sir. 2 Q, . And that holds true In other human beings as well, there are 3 genetic differences, one person goes through their life never being sick, 4 exposed, g o t o grade school; have, the same exposure to the common cold, 5 go everywhere, go through chemical plants, live their whole life without 6 being sick. You know'that, don't you, sir?, 7 A Yes, sir. . oV. 8 Q. And other people can be exposed to the same thing, the same 9 lifestyle and be sick, can't they, sir? 10 A Yes, sir. n. il Q Now, because people are made differently and they react different 12 don't they, sir? 13 A Yes, sir. 14 Q. Now, Isn't It possible, sir, that the person who has a heart 15 attack Is less resistant to that seme dose of dioxin than a person who 16 does not have a heart attack, Isn't that possible, sir? 17 A No, sir. 18 Q. Now, Doctor, then you have to back off from your original 19 predicate that people react different, different people react differently 20 to the sane dose, won't you, sir? 21 A No, sir. 22 Q. No? Doctor, Is there something different In what I said about 23 my question that would cause for this other response? 24 A Yes, sir. 1 Q. All right, would you please explain that, sir? 2 A I don't think that the cardiovascular disease Is a result of 3 exposure to dioxin; J 1 ^ 1 1 4 Q. Doctor, my question had in It the hypothesis that dioxin causes K 1 ^* 5 cardiovascular disease, trherke Is *evivdence: Jn thisL record. Now, assigns 6 if you will, please, sir, that dioxin does cause or can cause or has the, I, : : > K J: 7 potential of causing cardiovascular disease, will you do that, sir? 8 A Yes, sir. 9 Q, isn't It possible, sir, that one person then exposed to dioxin 10 can have heart disease,' heart attack, whereas another person exposed to 11 the same dose-would not have a heart attack? 12 A Yes, sIr. 13 Q. Yes. And Doctor, that's exactly the circumstance that exists 14 tn your plants, Isn't It, sir? These people are exposed to the same IS substance, the same dose? hf 16 A No, sir. 17 Q. They are not, sir? 18 A No, sir. .19 Q, Don't they work right next to one another, sir? 20 A Yes,*sIr. 21 Q And do they not get the sane air coming, do they.not breathe 22 the sane air and work with the same tools In' the same plant? Don't they 23 work there day in and day out right next to one another?* 24 A Yes, sir. 29 1. Q And aren't they then exposed to the same thing, Dr. Roush? ' 2 ' 'i'.* ' ' J'V h t A No, slrV . ;"';V \ /' , 3 Q How are th*:ey" exfpose,d 'to.something d\ifferent, i.Dr. Roush? t^ f uJ j ' | 'r 4 A. One manf if you put a personal monitor on him will have 30^ S' times a. bigger dose then a, man doing exactly the same job. So the . - ;,|I 'V 6 major problem on everything we talk about, the health effects of dioxin ,, 7 on that list Is all related to a dose effect, and as you go down, the dose 8 has to get bigger before you're going to see an effect. So those down 9 at the,bottom have not been studied very carefully, those up at the top 10 on that are the ones that are the clearest defined, and those are all 11 related to heavy exposure, without exposure you don't see those things-- 12 Q;' Doctor, I will agree, without exposure you don't see'those 13 things. I am not quarreling about, that at all. 14 A And that's what we mean about people who work In Kanawha Valley. 15 Q, These people who do live In the Kanawha Valley do have exposure, BAYONNE. N.J, 0 7 0 0 2 FORM It 2 4 B 16 don't they? 17 A Not measurable. < 18 Q, Now,-Doctor, whether you-have the instruments capable of 19 measuring, we know they have exposure. ',ou 20 A I don't know. 21 ! Q Doctor, you know they have It In their fat. tissue, dioxin, you 22 know that, don't you? 23 ! t i 24 A Yes, sir. Q. So they have .exposure? 1 A - Yes, sir. ,, 2 Q A n d thos e p e o p l e uin- that v a l l e y are e x p o s e d to m o r e 3 c h e m i c a l s th an the. p e o p l e in B e l l e v i l l e , y o u k n o w that, d o n' t 4 you, sir? j, i ` ' -1 5 A Yes sir. 1 .1 <,, > ; j; 6 Q And as far as you.know, there is no difference between 7 the people in the .Kanawha y.alley and. the pe ople in Be ll e v i l l e 8 other, than the fact that the Kanawha Valley is he av il y populated -* jl > 1 f 1 ^ j 1 '`i F 9 with chemical plants,' including Monsanto, isn't that correct, 10 sir? 11 A No, sir. - ' , 12 Q W h a t o t h e r d i f f e r e n c e is there, Dr. Ro us h, b e t w e e n the - 13 p e o p l e in the K a n a w h a V a l l e y and the p e o p l e h e r e that y o u k n o w 14 of, sir? 15 A The p e o p l e in this ar ea h a v e the same a m o u n t of d i o x i n r^ 16 in thei r fat as the p e o p l e w h o l i v e in K a n a w h a V a l l e y . T 17 Q H o w do y o u k n o w that, D o c t o r ? jr j- 18 A B e c a u s e s t u d i e s h a v e .been'-r . 19 Q Who has s t u d i e d the p e o p l e of the K a n a w h a V a l l e y ? 20 A No .one h a s . . . 21 Q T h e n y o u do n' t k n o w that? 22 - A N o t as a fact. 23 Q T h e n don' t give me s o m e t h i n g y o u k n o w is not a fact. 24 Do c t o r , wh at d i f f e r e n c e is there b e t w e e n 1 the p e o p l e i n , t h e % 1-,j r ** " J r 1- * 4 ' A1 -V-^ ^ L ^ ^ l'- " *v 1 * r ** i F ^ ^'1 t ^ -' -1 ^ "V * V' t- | ' fc ^ * j "^ s p iT . 'Kanawha .Valley -and' the .p d p l e that -live* .in- B e l l e v i l l e ot he r v ' -.- V "l - ' . '1 , V -< ' . < 21,'/ "t h a n .the c h e m i c a l . p l a n t s In K a n a w h a V a l l e y to y o u r k n o w l e d g e , si 3 ` -without speculating? . J. .4.': 1 L.-.5-1 t u* ' J A.' Q H o', Jsii, CT d o n ' t :have'`'-anything. '*,>-\J, , lj\\ ;{ t .(/ j i'..-u VJ| ^ V e s i n d e e d , :But' y o u 'do k n o w that . - ` : > t h e y h a v e <a higher. '6 1 7 "* ^j r f ^ S _V" f '^ --J i ^ , rate a ,v ' .of' h ea J r`t\ "1:;att-,^tyAa/c.rks"r,-J i'd1oA.Y'rni t y o-ui--,JrL,i-siri?-^ .'-`a ;'. Yes, sir. - 'r t jf ^ "!*P ,` . ,m ' ^j i 1-: 8 " : q , ii'-' j ; , i -i; >: ' \ u Now,, Doctor^ iis^lt^poissible'1that ' ' .J *' y .the t r e m e n d o u s .onset 9 , of lung cancers that we>have had and emphysema that.we have had ' 10 rH -. . 'Jr ti - / - L , . . h a s - b e e n a f f e c t e d by the d i o x i n that w e are all* now, e x p o s e d to? 11 :- ''A"'; No/.as.lr, j- . ' -l`r, ',v. _ v 1* ` Q !'12 You. d o n 't, t h in k that\s p o s s i b l e ? vi-r <fc.r- - 13 ./-A No ', .sir ;". r _ `1 r r ;, 1 ;` .. l A . r ' : Lr 9 y . .1 - ". " ,' -' ' j'r A l l right. A n d you aay i t 'a not p o s s i b l e ; so w e d o n ' t 15 h a v e to' gp' t h r o u g h .this* e x a m i n a t i o n a g a i n , : say..it is hot pq ss ib j ^ 16 -for the same r e a s o n s that y o u say the K a n a w h a Valley, p e o p l e have '17 18 ; 19 -vft diff eren t Ilf e s t y l e -th an t h e rest of ;.us j d o n 't you, sir? .V t .A -Yes, 'sir. . *v ; ; . Q N o w , 'N oc 1 0 r ,' .to g e t ; to a n o t h e r p o i n t r e 1 a t in g t o 'th e . 20 ; K r u m m r i c h 'h e a l t h study, if y o u- wo ul dr -v / . 21 ' '. 22. * (P la i n t i f f 's E x h i b i t 1516 was m a r k e d 1vfor -' ' '' 1 1^ identification.)., ` 1* - y ' ^ 1 '4- 1 " ' 23- q I ha nd y o u n o w w h a t h a s b e e h m a r k e d P l a i n t i f f 's E x h i b i t ,2*4' 1516 and ask y o u I f - y o u . r e c o g n i z e th a t ' a s the b l o o d w o r k ordered ;- r ' ' * ^ 4/ J - " -1 v.V - p1 ^tv fL " ( **A ^ PENGAD CO.. BAYONNE,' n .j, - ,A V 'V . 1 ii V * 32 to be done in the-Krummrich health study conducted by Dr. Suskin ,2JV\ i'"'in the- f'h ir- of, 1 9 7 9 ; - v;v., - : ;` - , r ^ ,i :/' ' 'J .* `3 ' , `4-, A *,-I't l7ok6kB\V'7liikVe:-V;iti,"'ysi`'7r".-'V> *i 1 77. ' . -L " ' Y r fi, , . `y , ; -'? , r . - N .. L,, . ;t ;T J V 1 . , \ ".-V J". ' 1 . ^ J i ' L ' >'-; . ` f f -- , ,. - '" MR. CARR':"' I o f f e r that e x h i b i t " i n t o e v i d e n c e , y o u r \s5 ' ;6 \ Honor. *, * ^ / . "if 1 ` }' - f i ^ ^ F "* !,l i . \ \ . J i, s \ V r t > J V f vv 1, J\ + * FiP * ^ % I *-!*., . ^ . ( P l a i n t i f f 's.- E x h i b i t . 1 5 1 6 'was : J- , ^ offered; into + evidence; "^ 1 '" 7 V / '^>r* is \ r j. > 'V--V. ; THEV C O U R T :1 Any.- obj e c t i o n B ? \ ^ "*- ; ^ * . 8 - ' t. MR.' H E I N E M A N : W h a t 'e the n u m b e r , sir?., ; 9" r i . : M R .:CARR: 1516.;. ', r ./ > r : : ' > io ; r>''*f MR". .HE INEMAN: Y o u r H o n o r , i t is- h a r d for me .to tell 11 b a s e d u p o n th is w h e t h e r or ,:'not this- is / a l l or. p a r t of the d o c u - > 12^.: ,. - mentation L i ' .i ' j,'-.'.i-V; *-*'J'. s e t t i n g 'fort h w h a t w a s ' /< ... . to be done. ` 1 *"; 'J': I don!t know, I . 13 d o n 't h a v e w h a t it was, that this was a t t a c h e d to. 14 : MR,r CARR: It came by itself, counsel; in this form. 5 -r. l '../MR, .HEINEMAN: ' It ca me b y i t s e l f in this form? / ,16:J MR. CARR: A l o n g :w i t h the k r u m m r i c h .doc um en ts. 17 - M R . .H E I N E M A N : - W e l l , ,y o u r Ho no r, I w o u l d h a v e to o b je ct 18 to it /only nn' the g r o u n d .that' I d o n 't t h i n k s u f f i c i e n t foiindatic 19 .Has b e e n es ta bl is he d- for it, c e r t a i n l y not t h r o u g h . t h i s w i tn es s. 20 L THE, COURT: O b j e c t i o n is..o v e r r u l e d . I "think it- has - l2l'; It is admitted,, over ob je ct io n. ^.' '.'L, . V .- V'22 , j ;23 (P la i n t i f f *s. E x h i b i t ;i516 .was a d m i t ted into evidence V) F^ ^-"ljF 'r * . r 'r 1 r _ * 1" ' Q .Doctor, you recognize those various tests' described thei ! 24 r as In fa ct the tests'-that :Were performed., d o n 't youi` s i r ? , PENGAD CO,, BAYON N* N.J. 07002 , FORM I U 2 4 9 33 A .Yes,' sir; I b e l i e v e .so, 'I.'t h i n k :that 's- .Q And dr V"- awi ng 1y our,j a11'eritio<\nVIsNtfcAn'`tl#*h1e is e c o n d page with regard ... . '.* tf i v.1- i 3 to urine, . W h a t te st s, w h a t 's to be t e s t e d f o r in .the u r in e? .> - , fW- , ,- - 4 J. . r\ . - v ,, r-t , ; A .//The' feet; t h a t .we ca ll .;urinalysis, l o o k i n g v for.i-- . ~ / 'j r ';v ':y\ r, . 5 ' Q ...No , :t h e urine,\ not -the u r i n a l y s i s . W h a t wa s .to be '6 "ir - tested, for in the I. ^ r' -Af h d o e s n 't it, `sir? urine? ;It\says urdporphyrihs[and cpproporphyfins, ' < , * y ;1 8-',' A :- -Yes', .s i r . ^ "/ , /: 9 1 - , 'That;! a w h a t w a s - g o i n g to be -t e s t e d for in'[this b l o o d 4 _ F- ^L JP - JI 10/ study, th is " u r i n e study; a m o n g 'o t h e r s , w a s n 't it, sir? 11. t'" /' A Tes;,/ sir .-' ' \'r,, ; ;/. L .*.[ ; 12 9 A n d the/ilast p a g e r e f e r s y ,of c o u r s e , th at is the Me tp at l -*P 1j .1 4 ^ ' - 13 -- -- f ,` * ' r ' work, and y o u h a v e got urine ./containers there and'you have the* * r , . ' V <Vr * .F ' r 14:' contact pers on in .Chicago that yo u are going to contact and all 15 that, d o e s n 't it, sir? /:_ : 16, * I 17, , V . A Yes, sir. 1 , . V;' ' ; <. r , ( P l a i n t i f f 's E x h i b i t 1509 A w a s m a r k e d for 18 .. "j ."i d e n t i f i c a t i o n . ). . / ''l . 19 Q D o c t o r , y o u r e c o g n i z e 1509 A ..as 1509 , b u t not all three 20 t e s t ^ r a n g e s / p u t on one p a g e r a t h e r t h a n o n th re e? . J. 21 22 ; 23 ' v A ' Yes, sir." I k n o w ,thecae' are all Me tp at h. r a n g e s . Q -My^ q u e s t i o n is s p e c i f i c a l l y , y o u r e c o g n i z e '.150-9.A as '/ ' *'v, ^ . ' ' r., *, X E x h i b i t 1509 but .put on one p a g e r a t h e r t h a n th re e? W e h a d 24 th re e s e p a r a t e p a g e s t h a t 1w a s 1509, do y o u r e c a l l that? 34 \*hm 1 '1> A No, 1,31r ^ "V,"* ;. *i i** t"!- 1 \ _ > v., 15 ; ;. - < r ; . : 2 ; , Q Yqu-'dohVt xecalllthAt7- ; 'V -r '* ''> 3 A r ' I remember, we talked about- that, 1" * ' . * .--*- ' 11 i.\ - r <rf . J *i I, p \ > ' / .fc1- , - i ""l* 1 y- * ' j ,,'V-. ^C v- >U ' `Jl. 4 S`- w h e t h e r ,it;.wesson o n e xp a g e `, '*~'w . v *'" but , I don't know 1 .v -s " . r-. . . ^^ :;Sv - v Q \ It w a s V n .three; ;pages.! * r-. . f ' j \ .' 6; 1 - .< r t.-' -7 A .if YesY,.sirl ; ' -* *' " 1* * Q We- can; dig' it out if ;you-- *,, ' i, - r \.;'r i , Vjj - ^ * -i 1 . , .j.8 ^ .A' I j u st can* t `r e c a l l what. the n u m b e r was, or, that it was, _9'- on th re e pages, j- * //% / rr r ' ' ^ 1 *' ' *i 1 L 1j */ * t , 1\ , ' 1 ; -" 1 `1I * , ,,j . s jp 10 - c; Q '1 A c c e p t f r o m LMr,,- S e i g f r e l d that .it w a s - 1509. and a c c e p t - 1! .from ;me that i t w a s on t h r e e p a g e s ,J a l l fright?, ,rr ;L 12- A ' Yes, sir, ^ 13. Q T h e s e are ttie s a m e .test .ranges .that w e r e on 1509? ,_ *. - ..;v '^ : > - - "r-" ' 14 A r Ye sV 's dt .' , -r ] r *' * \ 1 15 r Q . Now, Doctor;, .you' a l s 'p, k n o w that these, r a n g e s w e r e - 16;; ''s u p p l i e d ,to'us a n d under... the r e q u e s t that ,we..wanted t o receive, 17 f r o m M o n s a n t o the n o r m a l r a n g e s used, .you k n o w that, d o n ' t . y o u , is.; -sir?/ Y o u have' b e e n t o l d that, b y c o u n s e l , h a v e y o u 'no t? r * 19 rv.-< . t 1 * . -r a " Y e s j ^ s i r , * - ` l . * 'r\~ . ` . ' ,ir`` ^ ; 20 . VtJ ' '< ' ' - Q ,JS And 'that -these d o c u m e n t s `` , w e r e s u p p l i e d -to us" by1, y o u r 21 lawyers w h e n 1 asked that I wanted something to s,ee that, to _' 22- .i nt er pr et t h e / a b n o r m a l , t o interpret, the p o r p h y r i n s that -I' A l23 V wa n t e d , the r e f e r e n c e r a n g e used' for these' p o r p h y r i n s ? 24 . rA .Yes, sir; v.~, -.. , _ " - 7, .; PENGAO CO., BAYONNE. N.J. 07001 V o R M JL 24 B 35 r i / r f H 'fc' r;A | '' : : ,r" J ' r' ' 1 A n di;;this:;:.s^ w h a tW a s a up p 1 led', yo u k n o w that, d o n 11 yo u 2/ k. / - sir? \ V .A ^1:1 ?r-^ Yes, 'V .i %,rJ, '"1H hl'A r i,'ii'/A"V'i1. ^ -. 4 k, - ? * ,- Q,, And. Doctor.,^you. k n o w .that in ^two, i n ' t h e cases of two '** ' \ e; ' - v;Cr-'t-,iv*i* \ fij '> , / r, . ' . t" . 5' . p e r s o n s , .the M e t p a t h l a b o r a t o r y ga ve a v a l u e th at .you a c c e p t e d , - `r ` ; - , -' ' 'r. - 6 as being, b a s e d upon, a, n o r n a l range,' do you, r e c a l l that, sir? V ''l Mr.' R i l e y , t o n e . p e r s o n , he h a d ,. 2 0 :`l i t e r s of ur in e, and a n o t h e r 8 had two liters, of urie, do y o u recall/that, sir? 9 J. ~ v J . r ** * y ; . A J,J Yes , 8 T V "1 j , 'J , " /" L ^ 'H V 'I'm ^' * 1 J1 - '. > J i j| * k> 1 ; Q 'And now. .20 l i t e r s of u r i n e is a p p r o x i m a t e l y one f i f t h 11 ,mr{ 'll 13 o f .a ;,quart; isn' t it, sir? A lite r i s / j u s t a f r a c t i o n u n d e r la quart; is it not, sir? *r , P f ^ A. > \ A Yes,- s i r . ` , /V ; J ' .Y-". * J/ 'f " "* . - r'v.i,' '' /, ' J t- 14 Q. And, Jtwo i i t e r s .w o u l d / b e ` two qarts?, 15, A / Yes,/;eir. , ^ v ' l. ' , ' / ,, 1 ,16 Q N e a r l y two. q u a r t s , 'w o u l d n ' t i t , sir? :* .17; IB ,,19 20^ L 21 ;:22 ;23 24' ' ' A Yes j ;sir,. ` /, ` ' . / 1 Q ` So t h e' only., two u r i n e s t h a t ' w e r e m e a s u r e d t h e r e w h e r e a measurable amount'was- given was the Metpath Laboratory gave a r e s u l t that you' a c c e p t e d as n o r m a l or a s jabnormal';;! isn| t that ^ c o r r e c t ,. s i r ? A n d it w a s the^ o n l y two' t h a t "y o u a c c e p t e d ? . t ' p . I 1 *'' i ^S r '; J '* _ ^ t* r * -- *t V , Y *, ' */ ,' ' A I dldn't accept those as normal, *s Y ,'" 1 1l P, * t^ f r1 - \ , At , |r V ^ J " PI F' * ^ " J Q/ No, it was the only two that you ^ i\ " * v ; " ' , 1 ,; ' ' Y. * A - '1 '' 'CJ . ,i t -- Y 'U P <-J ^ a c c e p t e d a s ,a v a li d^ test r e s u l t b;ased/upon t h e s e r a n g e s #J not 't h a t L y o u >call 't h e m 1 - J BAYONNE, NIJ., 07002 FORM IL.'24 B I 1 either normal.or, abnormal? r - * ,r ' '< `^ r 2 A No,J sir, ! didn't even accept that. 3 . Q Y o u dldn'.t a c c e p t .that? ., 4 A No, sir. ' Q5 Do y o u r e c a l l R i l e y , * y o u r e m e m b e r t e s t i f y i n g as to 6 Riley? 7 - A Yes, sir. Q8 And T h o m a n ? 9 A Yes, sir. Qio An d yo u r e c a l l t h os e ,v a l u e s there, sir? j 11 A Y e s , s i r . Q12 A n d y o u sa id th er e w a s a test r a n g e t h er e? 13 A Yes, sir. ,, Q14 And so that re su lt can b e used? 15 A No, sir. Q16 W h a t did yo u say a b ou t that, Dr. Ro us h? 17 A Y o u can' t use a 200 ml as a man's' e x c r e t i o n of u r i n e in 18 a day. Q19 Y o u can't do wh a t ? 20 A Y o u can' t use 200 ml ,,as a m a n ' s e x c r e t i o n in one day, 21 T h a t ' s not right. T h a t ' s im pr op er . 22 Q Well, w h at about the^two quarts? 23 A Two q u a r t s is p o s s i b l e , b u t not the f i f t h of a quart. Q'24 Well, the two q u a r t s . y o u a c c e p t e d th at as test range -. ' , .* - ^ - 'A # - t ' ' -- :V " A - `V V'''^ ./v- -- ;,37. : .;././ V ;: V ' :'v ^- ' ^ 1 .' -* .-..j \J:.:;i / 'ift-r:? ''T.- ;., ft ';j`` . i-,l v a l u e , didn' t?-y o u * ;sir.?c7J-i- j- ,.i. - U , ^ " `J-v- ` ' 2- ' ** ; '"A "Yes, "'sir.' . ; r . t * -1 *.t " ' ' -v. ,V--.r..'F 3 '; . Q 1 ',vL. "i>1ip,JTT--1%" ^ i y*n,/ltWvJi{y*m**S."i^* ;!^^*\"1/ '*- *'1-JjLvri>'jr : A n d .now, Do c t o r , t h e ,, o t h e r one y o u d i d n ' t accept^ b e c a u s e ,4 ; '.you d i d n ' t B e l i e v e that. av m a n w o u l d S ' 5 '-: q u a r t In a day' s time, in. 24 h o u r ' s excrete o t n 'lJy . ai-'*- f'i f t h 1 of ra 4^ time? ' ;. r ' / 6 ,,,/-/\-A Ye s, sir! -Jl'^ `- \r ` ' ; - i' r, L Q ..Do y o u k n o w that t h e s e u r i n e s w e r e to be measured?'. Y o u 8 know that,/don't you, sir?. `9 :. A -^ T h e y w e r e .supposed /to be measured.' 10 r.,, Q ,, A n d they, w e r e o n l y .in. the case of two that th ey w e r e - :r; J- , - - ' . .. v . '' > _ - .i ' , i i / in fact m e a s u r e d , i s n ' t that right, sir,?, ' r * -,JI, * * R, 12 A ` Yes, `sir ,' a n d o n e .was i m p r op er . 13 /\/: ' 1 4 / ` ' ` - j- ;(Plaintif f's E x h i b i t T1517 w a s - m a r k e d - .' i d e n t i f i c a t i o n . ) ,, . _ '. for* .. .:I5> -Q I h a n d y o u E x h i b i t 1^17, t h a t 's .another, d o c u m e n t f u r n i s h ed V J 6 us by M o n s a n t o 1 :A n d tell" me w h e t h e r or n o t it d e a l s ^ w i t h this 17 . p ar ti cu la r study, K r u m m r i c h h e a l t h study? v -* ; ,, s r* + - */ *'*'? 1 18' M R . ^ C A R R : :Y o u r Ho no r, I g n t e this 1 5 9 A 'h a s h 't b e e n . 19 p a s s e d to t h e - ju ry . X'd- l i k e t o / h a v e it p a s s e d . `2; 'THE COURT.: r^ine. I j l o n 't believe, yoih m o v e d its 21.- a d m i s s i o n y e t :. v- J * -22; - MR. CARR: A 1 right..' I'll "move its ad mi ss io n. It is . h 23L - 1.**i\ ** . "'-* ' *"fS-t t h e . s a m e as 1509 with' the e x c e p t i o n that it 's o n one page.- ' ''24 '' .?"r '. '^ ( P l a i n t i f f *s E x h i b i t .1 5 0 9 A / w a s o f fr*e r e d1'- into e v i d e n c e .) */ rL' V-. * ' , : -' /' - ` . i 38 1 THE COURT: Any objection? 2 MR. HEINEMAN: I'm just looking to see, your Honor. I 3 see that 1509 was admitted over objection. 4 T H E C O U R T : Yo u want me to incorporate the same objections? 5 MR. H E I N E M A N : W i t h - t h e C o u r t 's p e r m i s s i o n , I 'd li ke to 6 Incorp or at e the same objectlons to 1509A, w h i c h is a part of a 7 previously admitted exhibit. 8 THE COURT: Fine. Then I will do that. It will be 9 a d m i t t e d o v e r the s a m e 'o b j e c t l o n s . Y o u m a y p a s s it to the Jury, 10 ( P l a i n t i f f 's E x h i b i t ,1509A w a s a d m i t t e d into e v i d e n c e . ) n MR. CARR: And your Honor, I'd like the comments of 12 c o u n s e l m a d e In c h a m b e r s w h e r e i n th ey a g r e e d th at thes e w e r e 13 the n o r m a l test r a n g e s g i v e n to us at our r e q u e s t , that he agreejd 14 In c h a m b e r s that t h e s e i n d e e d w e r e the test r a n g e s th at they is. gave and have so stipulated, I'd like that I n co rp or at ed at the , ^ 16 same time, if the Court w o u l d please.i -i 17 THE COURT: So I n c o r p o r a t e d . 18 MR. H E I N E M A N ; Y o u r H o n o r , w e did a g r e e that th es e 19 r e f e r e n c e r a n g e s w e r e the M e t p a t h n o r m a l ra ng es that we 20 re ce iv ed * 21 THE COURT:' Fine. So I n c o r p o r a t e d . 22 MR. CARR: Y o u a g r e e d m o r e t h a n that. Y o u a g r e e d that 23 t h o s e are the r a n g e s y o u gave me in r e s p o n s e to m y r e q u e s t for '24 the r a n g e s us ed in m e a s u r i n g thes e p o r p h y r i n s and d e t e r m i n i n g PE KG AD CO.. BAYONNE. N.J. r.:'*f\ rtA*"'"Jf"' `i1jv i,-.'Vir,*-V--.'f,'r/'-;V>V **.- Jti-?-r*,`tV'"`rJ-"i-vVr-f :-'`> V? .../A frvV -iV ' /. 7. >. y`r'y J' " v* v y ' ;./v ;. 7-./39 Vs ;rr< ' V s k r i T / V**v. ,v l"' \vy. .*jL / C .v i*'d w h e t h e r .or-not' th ea e p o r p h y r i n s 'w e r e " a b n o r m a l , that *a w h a t y o u K " agr eed t o , p ec au s e v that Vs w h at I ask'e d or an d th a t 1s w h a t y o u \3\ a g r e e d . ^ s*.'/V ; v -<'v 7,> 7--- '-, \-yr / ,, r" f 4 : n ., ,> " MR-. H E I N E M A N : W e a g r e e d and 't h i n k the" r e c o r d is."leas , A > 'V7' v 'V- * " " "7. ' ` , 5 ' on this thatVthese /are'lndead the: M e t p a t h n o r m a l r e f e r e n c e . 1 "'-iJ y ' -; 1 7 . 7 'L' /. S.; V V V ^ - V" ^ 'VV -1 6-.t r a n g e s w h i c h -'were u s e d .inVthe Susklnd/ktuinmrich- `e x a m i n a t i o n y b y S ; 7 the vMetpatK,;Laboratories and were, provided-, I as s u m e , to .. [ t-'r 18 ;}** .p r. V S u s k i h d 'nd^were p r o v i d e d to us b y Dr. S u s k i n d and. w e r e : , ;9 V '\ . t u r n e d o v e r by ;us t o y M r .- Ca rr in _r e s p o n s e to his r e q u e s t ; V ; r, .' ^ -j:- ;7 -7 ,, -r t .7 - . - 7 7 -v ..7 , MR . CA R R : ` In .res p o n s e t o m y x e q ue s t fox, th e ~ :.nor m a 1 :n * - ^ :v a l u e s .u s e d ,; the teat.ranges. us ed in -de t e r m i n i n g w h e the r o r not 12 ,.:..-t"J'5fhre^,;.s''e'VVp jJ k- S r*'V ow'rTph y.r iVns s ; ,'. w e r e .* ^n1o y-., ', - V'. *." -^ rr"-mra l"- *or' .ab*rnro"rmS,-al - r,. .V>`; and'i' th a1t ha,sJ to ; b.e .' .F * ^ 1^ *F - ,,j * ^ ' ./ t , i 4 s: , .13;'^ a d d e d ,to` it *;.r "V ;'*/ ''SV 1/v " ^"r , V :' v V j ' . . '?,, ,j4.\; K*.` "2!/' .. . ^ , -l' ` '" ;.* ,".i,*/' ' . >.'r -.f -1.. `-V'- ,, r r J MR. H E X N E M A N : ; i; w o u l d h'ayep to. lo ok at' the.; r e q u e s t , youi 15 `V.- * s.-; r 1, .pn .r.* w/,' ,/''/\i,-V""..V" .. r' * r ,, v' Honor, biit I t h i n k o u r 's t i pu 1 at ion i s on the; r e c o r d a n d - i s 'Clear 16" t h e ; C O U R T : - I b e l i e v q that .the r e c o r d did ;ref 1 ect 1'1r '^, iJ,vr L ' ,>7J'r'' T,i t `1 ."c yVi +'a-T> ,, V ^ J hr*-/- ,*'""r J - :*''V*- * T ' 17 / ih',ourv'cdnference in .chambers* V It Is- rioted on the; r e c o r d * is , ti8 `/: o p e n C o u r t v ,M t Crxv'.bfore'nyoii go into- e x a m i n a t i o n ,"is that r1 in this .19 : a ^ g d o d p o i n t for a sh or t b r e a k ? " - V v, 1 20 ' * MR. CARRs .Sufe"V .21 THE COURT:, L a d i e s and g e n t l e m e n , we will' tie, short"' 22 ' b r e a k att this- .t i m e ; I w o Uld r e m i n d you" t h a t the `a dimoohn i:s h m e n t s 23 w h i c:hh I gaye y o u .e a r l i e r ^ w i l l a p p l y d u r i n g this b r e a k also'. , Thhsd 24 , t',r *- Cour t is .In .a sh or t "recess ,, vh JL j - , - \ v" '1 ^- J 07002 -FORM IL 24 **yv - ^1- 1 (At this time, Co ur t .was In r e c e s s . ) . 2 MR. CARR: Your .Honor, we have had copies of the page 3 f r o m M o n s a n t o E x h i b i t 908 p h o t o e d n o w for the Jury, and I 'd 4 like to have that page marked 1518 and made a Plaintiff's 5 Exhibit. i rL 6 ( P l a i n t i f f 's E x h i b i t 1518 w a s m a r k e d for 7 identification.) _ 8 THE COURT: T h a t 's a l r e a d y pa rt of 908 w h i c h has b e e n 9 admitted? 10 MR. CARR: - T h a t 's correct. 11 BY MR. CARR: 12 Q Do c t o r , y o u r e c o g n i z e 1518 as p a g e 171 c o n t a i n i n g the 13 char t r e l a t i n g to c h l o r a c n e status., do y o u not? 14 A 1 Yes. . r 15 Q F r o m the M o s e s / S e l i k o f f study? 16 A Y e s . - . r ... 17 MR, CARR: I o f f e r 1518, ,If it p l e a s e the Court. 18 ( P l a i n t i f f I s E x h i b i t .1518 w a s o f f e r e d in to ev id en ce . 19 THE COURT: Fine. 20 MR. CARR: A n d w e h a v e c o p i e s to pass to the jury. 21 T H E COURT: It is p a r t of 908 w h i c h has b e e n a d m i t t e d 22 by a g r e e m e n t . . 23 ( P l a i n t i f f ' s E x h i b i t .1518 was a d m i t t e d into evidence Q Doctor, I think I previously handed you Exhibit 1517, I 41 r j . `r ;* ' r . : , v M- > . ;' :v 1 d o n ' t r e c a l l .w h e t h e r It's o f f e r e d In to e v i d e n c e or not. If It 2 ' hasn't. I'll now offer--did I get a response from the witness 3 , on the exhibit? 4 THE.COURT : I don't believe so. -* 5 Q D o c t o r , you. r e c o g n i z e this as s o m e t h i n g c a l l e d c o m m u n i 6 cations outline dealing with the Krummrich plant study, and some 7 n o t e s a t t a c h e d to it from, so me p e r s o n a s s o c i a t e d w i t h that. stud|y? '8- J I recognize both of these, but I'm not sure they are 9 together. . 10 Q ' T h e y w e r e a t t a c h e d w h e n t h e y w e r e g i v e n to m e is all 11 1 c a n tell you. - t 12 - A Yes; sir. 13 . Q And th ey h a v e c o n s e c u t i v e p a g e n u m b e r s , do th ey not? 14 A Yes, sir. 15 MR. CARR: I' o f f e r 1517 into e v i d e n c e . - 16 ( P l a i n t i f f ' s E x h i b i t 1517 w a s o f f e r e d i n to e v i d e n c e . ) 17 MR. H E I N E M A N : J Y o u r H o n o r , I d o n ' t t h i n k an a d e q u a t e * ri 18 , f o u n d a t i o n has b e e n la id th us far w i t h this w i t n e s s , and I wouljd 19 h a v e to o b j e c t to it on that b a s i s , l a c k o f f o u n d a t i o n . 20 MR. CARR: I' ll ask a few m o r e q u e s t i o n s . 21 Q Do ct or , y o u r e c o g n i z e b y the a t t a c h m e n t s and by the covjer 22 23" 24 . sheet itself that it is de al in g w i t h th K r u m m r i c h plant stud? that was conducted in October of '79, do you not, sir? A I h a v e to a n s w e r it as I thinlc so. 1 Q Yes. 2' TH E .COURT: " `I' m sorry, I d i d n ' t h e a r the answer. 3 MR. CARR: He said he thought so, your Honor. 4 THE COURT: I th in k a f o u n d a t i o n has b e e n laid. It is 5 admitted over objection. 6 (Plaintiff's Exhibit 1517 was admitted into evidenc 7 ( P l a i n t i f f 1s - E x h i b i t 1 5 1 7 A was m a r k e d for 8 identification.) 9- Q Do ct or , 1 5 1 7 A is the l a s t - - 10 MR. H E I N E M A N : Y o u r H o no r, I ju st for c l a r i f i c a t i o n of 11 the re co rd , m y o b j e c t i o n -is r e m a d e a f t e r the other, the a d d i t l o 12 q u e s t i o n that Mr. Carr ma de . 13 T H E COURT: Right. I a s s u m e d that it was. 14 MR. H E I N E M A N : Th e same o b j e c t i o n a p p l i e d on f o u n d a t i o n 15 THE COURT: Right. 16 MR, H E I N E M A N : T h a n k you. 17 THE COURT: Y o u ' r e w e l c o m e . 18 MR. CARR: Th e last p a g e of 1 5 1 7 A I'd l i ke to p a s s that 19 to the jury. ' 20 THE COURT: It Is p a rt of an a d m i t t e d ex h i b i t . Y o u m a y 21 do 8 0 . 22 ( P l a i n t i f f ' s E x h i b i t 1519 w a s m a r k e d for 23 i d e n t i f i c a t i o n . ) 24 Q Doctor, I n o w h a n d yi.o u E x h i`b i t 1519 and I ask y o u if > .^p * u 1* 43 1 i\4 '2 y o u r e c o g n i z e * we ll , r e p r e s e n t to you, y o u d o n 't n e e d to recognize it, represent to you that that's the laboratory 3 result from the Charles Beckman, Krummrich plant study results, 4 and you do recognize that as such, don't'you, sir, upon my 5 representation? 6 A Y e s , s i r ., 7 MR, CARR: Your Honor, I offer this individual exhibit, 8 it's already part of a group exhibit that's already in evidence 9 I offer it and I wish to pass it to the Jury as well. 10 " ( P l a i n t i f f ' s E x h i b i t 1519 was o f f e r e d in to e v i d e n c e .) 11 THE COURT: Okay, it's part of an e x h i b i t t h a t ' s b e e n 12 a d m i t t e d into e v i d e n c e . .Any o b j e c t i o n s to it fr om the p r i o r 13 e x h i b i t are I n c o r p o r a t e d . It is ad mi tt ed . 14 ( P l a i n t i f f * s E x h i b i t 1519 was a d m i t t e d into e v i d e n c e . ) 15 Q N o w , 'Doctor,, th es e e x h i b i t s , this last group of e x h i b i t 16 1509 and 1510, that Is the I n s t r u c t i o n s o f . w h a t to do, and 1517 17 c o m m u n i c a t i o n s o u t l i n e , and the lab tests all de al w i t h the 18 p r o c e d u r e and the r e s u l t s o b t a i n e d in this K r u m m r i c h p l a n t stud 19 do they not, sir? T h e y all de al w i t h the same s u b j ec t? 20 A Yes-, sir. 21 Q Now, Do ct or , a g a i n to put it.1 in a f r a m e of r e f e r e n c e , 22 the N i t r o w o r k had a l r e a d y b e e n do ne in J u n e .of 1979 p r i o r to 23 this w o r k b e i n g do ne in O c t o b e r of 1979?, 24 A Y e s , s i r . ` `, " ; A t BAVOUNE, N.j; '44 1 ;v ` Q " A n d , the :,same; l a b o r a t o r y - w a s u s e d by-Dr. S u a k i n d . i h b o t h 2` 'l V B t u d i e s v .'was i t .n o t s i r /. v ,3 ' .v/ / k :-. X t h i n k so ^ v , 4'? - V < . r .; ^ J'-1 \ - ; r. - . * ; , 4 . ' ; Q ` . T h e v M e t p a t h L a b o r a t o r y ,,yo u re ca l l . w a s a t t a c h e d to 5' ` those,?, . 'r.- - ` __ . ,r , n " 6 ."''k;,' 1 d i d n ' t p a y a t t e n t i o n w h e t h e r rit w a s *M e t p t h , .but I '7;:, t h i n k th ey "re the' s a m 'They l o o k the s a m e . ' '8' ,'Q . -They are the .s a m e . ' 1 , * . `-i ' V,id ' A " A l l right. '1 Q P a g e 517A,. the' last. p a g e that Vs h a n d w r i t t e n t h e r e , at, A\ ; t h e v e r y b o t t o m V o f the p a g e .it says ''m e a s u r e the volume, of urin|2 ,i,! 12 ''.doesn't it", sir? - \ r V*- " \ ' -` 13; ^ . ,r A - Y e s , `.sir. "v* ... *. ' . 14 > Q : Now, D o c t o r , th at is attached-.to,, this d o c u m e n t that. ..has 15, s e v e r a l p a g e s - d e s c r i b i n g w h a t c o u l d b e done, .,,the, t h i n g s d i s c u s s id, J~i)'1 16 V , p p a r e n 1 1 y s o m e b o d y Vs m e m o d e 1 ing w i t h w h a t 1s 'g b i n g to ta ke ' 17 - p l a c e and h o w it should.,-take p l a c e in this study, isn' t that: 18 \ co rr ec t, `sir? - - . . . -> 19 r_ A 20 V A Yes i -sir . , r , 1 )" " h - ' .- krr - 1 ^ 'p ** * *9 Q A n d -,h'm a k e s a not A ther e t h a t the .volume ,o^ u r i n e is 21 ' to be m e a s u r e d ? , ; ' - ; ' y.'.- -J._ `v J% 22. 23 \ 24 A . Yes, sir. ' ,'j / '' : ..V p , - f.Xyii*. j" - - \ '* ' '' Q Now, ,the' v o l u m e 1 o f ' u r i n e in.fact'.was not,,measured e x c e p t these two p e o p l e so. far as these^ezhlbltrs, that y o u H a v e t\ i.;-.r .-'v f Yi RENGAD CO.. aATONNE, N.J. 07001 . FORM JL 24 B A5 ll r**i'dv i"-i J< / se en are c o n c e r n e d ^ 'isn11 -th at correct,, sir?" >; ' -2*. I t h i n k , yes ,v sir ../'V; . l-',4f, 'f \ ` , '' ' V* 3 , - rQ ' N o w , ;the results- g i v e n by. the l a b o r a t o r y makes, a sp ecie -f M Jv' * J J 'f ' j ' .y , , . J f1 " I * f- 1^ ^ 4 F i1- ' V 4 '.n o t e , d o e s n * t ' i t , sir', .that t h e r e w a s ;no t o t a l v o l u m e g i v e n ? , : t'- '* / i - o, i t ^r * ' " - a. ;s., \ - :A ; Yes", Bir.' . ;r 'rJ- - . . " r " 6" '! \ ` vQ ` -/ ^ \ A'- I n ' a l l of these, o t h e r .t h a n the two w e d i s c u s s e d e a r l i e r " ._ , ...sj`- * 7 * - r : ' \ Yes'i sir. ' ^ / "V-,"' t r -. j `. j' ' ? \ \o Q A n d , t h e r e f o r e the, l a b o r a t o r y c o u l d . n o t - g i v e a r e s u l t r * ' . ,'3 ^ . t7 V - V` '-3 " ' ' t I 9 f that y o u .would, a c c e p t as,a' p o s s i b l e v a l i d re su lt , i s n 't that IQ jt t 12; correct,, sir? , . .r -- 7j - - -j 7 Y e s , `'sir;- 7 `r` . i* V./""' /v"r Q ` And the M o s e s / S e l i k o f f study,, ho wever, they .did m e a s u r e 13', ;th e u r in e s , ,th ey h a d ;'Sp o t, spmp lea j u s t :a s' w a s ^h a d .a N iLt r o b y ' 14. Stiskind and'-by--at Kruminrich 'by^ . S u s k i n d , did, t h e y not, sir? ^ 15. r' 'A - Yes,, sir-"', - ' _ ' . '/ , ./* ' J.;1'-v r1'^ 16" ? ; Q A n d t h e y m a d e a s i m p l e c a l c u l a t i o n , d i d n 11, t h e y ,. s i r?L' ; . . *'_ . J-''' ` 17 1 A 'Y e s , 1, sir- , ^ ; - - / ' r _ .' -*1.>'-r ., ^ v * * - ' - . ` ;i` 18 Q 1 think' Mr.' H e i n e m a n d e s c r i b e d -it'as a s i m p l e Jr a t i o >; 19 c a l c u l a t i o n , d i d n 't t h e y 1, s i r ? " 20- A I 'm not sure o f - h i s chatacteriz'atibh-,o.f it.v " ' 21 . Q Well; I- w r o t e It d o w n a h d \ t h a t 's .what'-he d e s c r i b e d and 22,-. ; you a g r e e d w i t h ]it that7 i i w a s a eimpl'e^ca 1 c u l a t i o n . ',r,, 'r ` , b ii :.rW1,.- .) ' - V^.Vi , ^^ , `1 23 '* A Yes, it is. : ' .. - v '/ ' 1 * i~ :, ,i |1' J!* * 24 ;- `' 1J> ' ' ;- v" , T ..." ^ Q But neither; at Nitro' nor at ,Krummrich d i d jyou1 at MonsAnft PENGAD COr, BAVONNE. N.J, 07001 FOBM'IL 14 6 v /i i -.t . V 1 p e r f o r m the s i m p l e c a l c u l a t i o n n e e d e d ,to m a k e th es e p o r p h y r i n 2 results valid In your Judgment, isn't that correct, sir? 3 A No, sir. 4 Q That isn't correct?' 5 A Y o u 1re right, w e did not. 6 Q Y o u did not? And.by doing that, you have been able' to 7 in this courtroom ignore, and you have ignored all of the 8 po rp hy ri n results reported by Metpath, -have you not, air? 9 A Y e s , sir. ' 10 ,, Q Sir? 11 A Yes, sir. . 12 ( P l a i n t i f f 's E x h i b i t 15 19 A and 1509 B w e r e m a r k e d 13 for i d e n t i f i c a t i o n . ) 14 Q Do ct or , 1 5 1 9 A is the s e c o n d pa ge of E x h i b i t 1519, Is 15 it n o t , sir? J 16 A Y e s , s i r . 17 Q B l o w n up? A n d 1509B is a co py of E x h i b i t 1509 b l o w n rup 18 is it not, sir? 1509A? 1 ; 19 A Y e s , s i r . 20 MR. CARR: O f f e r 1509B a n d . l S l ^ A , if it p l e a s e the 21 J (P la in ti f f 's, ;Exhibit 1519 and 1509B ' w e r e - 22 o f f e r e d into e v i d e n c e . ) ,j * |V 23 T H E COURT: Do y o u w a n t m e to i n c o r p o r a t e y o u r p r i o r 24 ob j e c t i o n ? v jV S v "::, 47 i, >rj. L ^ -i - . _ - : l. '. . - . .' . . . . - - . r' , j -.MR. .HEIN E M A N : - Y e s'\ yp u r .Ho no r , .and X a m not sure, w h i c h 2k- i s w h i c h / ' ' > \ ; '> / / v /. '/ .r - v ", / y / / / - - v: -3 . /-' MR. C A R R v 1509B. Is a b l o w - u p of T509, 1*519 A is a ' ` y - - ' .. v v- 4. b l o w - u p of'the: second;-page of 1 5 1 9 . , V .5 T H E C O U R T / The p r i o r o b j e c t i o n s are i n c o r p o r a t e d , they -6 . ./ `; 7 ; ^are admitted^over objection, same ruling . T v ^s; .# ^ J - ^ r u * ' j , `y . / s 4y J ' .(P Ta in 1 1 f f 's E k h l b i t " 1519 a n d ; 15 09B "* " were .- - i " * / 8. . . -, a d m i t t e d in to evidence.)-; - , .'*:/ 9 y. Q Do c t o r , the l a b o r a t o r y /-.notwithstanding the fact that ;I0 no v o l u m e was g i v e n , ,,firs t of all th ey p o i n t out that no v o l u m e ;li/ .12 was given, and thus theyyare.expressing the r e s u l t s , a r e they ^ ' n oiti?.*- 1 \ ^V, f-' ' r. " - 1.L ,1* 1 * rJ '- r- 1 ;' .. \y.. t ' . .> / ' k- - ' 13: ^ ;A. r,/Ysy sir. ' 'V ' 1 /' *r: / " ; ' 1 .. 14 Q, A n d ' y o u see t h i s ,T i n e ' w i t h `the st ar s ,all a c r o s s f r b m . l t 15 ' they, s e p a r a t e w i t h .that .'line./and 'y o u h a v e u s e d it b e f ore to-' "ltf, s e p a r a t e the", n o r m a l v a l u e s f r o m . t h e a b n o r m a l ? . . ^ ' ' 17;- / ' A -Yesi sir,/ .`l , 'r " ji. / 18 Q Y e Si., Now, in that a b n o r m a l l i n e .t h e y ' h a v e i r o n r e p o r t e d ;19 6 v '2i; . 22; a s .a b n o r m a l , rIt -is o u t s i d e t h a t ' r e f e r e n c e r a n g e / i s it not, sir? ' A ' Yes y 4 fiir`sN *-'!lr. ' " ,L- / ' r-,^ ' '>';j^/> vV i -/ ' .-- >i ~-Vi X v . . ..'r.'v-.. - ..f j Q And^the' report, the lipidsVtotal. s e r u m lipids,, as . y \ f1 I*" * X, "J? ^ , ' - -; .. a b n o r m a l , it i s . i n f a c t `o u t s i d e ;that r e f e r e n c e range, is n' t lt^ 23 24 - sir? J *i r t *Y``\ .i ' . ": U' , ' *' -- Yes , s i r 1.- - J * c . 'lV-:.; BAYONNEt K.J. 48 1 Q A n d th ey a l s o 1 put th c o p r o p o r p h y r i n r a n g e and' the 2 u r o p o r p h y r i n r a n g e 27 and 10., in e a c h i n s t a n c e t h o s e v a l u e s are 3 outside the ranges, shown in 1509B, aren't they, sir? 4 A Yes, sir. 5 . Qi Now, Doctor, when yo went through the group of exhibit 6 1504 w i t h Mr: H e i n e m a n , ,he a s k e d you for, ohj p e r h a p s ten, 7 eleven different ones and 1 won't go1through those same ones, 8 but.he asked you whether or not they were the appropriate or th 9 ^ p r o p e r n u m b e r of c h e c k s p l a c e d in the slot for,* well , for all O .the f i n d i n g s th er e and for l i p i d s and ot he r, i s n ' t th at c o r r e c t 11 sir, as w e l as l i p i d s and o t h e r ? 12 A Y e s , sir.. 13 Q . A n d you r e s p o n d e d in m a n y i n s t a n c e s t h a t in the other, 14 1 a b o u t e l e v e n ti me s I t h i n k y o u r e s p o n d e d th at t h e r e w a s a c h e c k 15 m a r k ther e and no v a l u e to s u p p o t f that c h e c k mark , do y o u 16 ' r e c a l l that, sir? -v . .17 A 1 re ca ll , not the n u m b e r , but we did that. 18 ;Q And w o n ' t h o l d you to that n u m b e r 1, Do c t o r , not 19 s u g g e s t i n g bat; that :is.'not c o t t e c i n u m b e r .because h a V e h ' t > ' - j T: .- ' ' ' '! ' f f ' . 20 c o u n t e d them, but t h e r e w a s a l a r g e n u m b e r of, and in e a c h of 21 those, and the v a s t m a j o r i t y of thos e ^instances w h e r e y o u said 22 ' ther e w a s c h e c k m a r k in the h e a l t h s t u d y that we prepared, w h e n 23 ' , you sa id that ther e s h o u l d n o t <be a p a r t i c u l a r c h e c k ma rk , it 24 was the c r e a t i n i n e v a l u e that yo u w e r e s t r i k i n g out f r o m there, FORM lu 24 B ] isn't i t , sir? * 2 A I don't recall that. 3 Q Dr. Roush, you don't recall the number of exhibits you 4 went through? 5 A Yes, sir. But I didn't remember it was the creatinine 6 that was the one that we were talking about. But if the creatir 7 was abnormal and it was recorded, then I would know it, but .8 I'm not saying how many of those were creatinines, I can't talk 9 about that * 10 Q Now, Do ct or , you k n o w fr om y o u r s t u d y of the e x h i b i t s 11 that we l i s t e d as a b n o r m a l and gave a c h e c k for any ti me the 12 c o p r o p o r p h y r l n or the u r o p o r p h y r i n or the creatinine, was outslds 13 the test r a n g e v a l u e s s h o w n by E x h i b i t 1509B, y o u k n e w that a n d . 14 k n o w that, don' t you, sir? 15 A No, sir. 16 Q Y o u don' t k n o w that? 17 A No, sir, 1 d i d n ' t think, t h o s e t h r e e w e r e not t h o s e that 48 we t a l k e d about' as b e i n g ' t h e ones tha.t .were out of n o r m a l range. 19 Q Do ct or , y o u don' t r e m e m b e r that we t a l k e d a b o u t the 20 c o p r o p o r p h y r i n ,and the uroporphyrin', v a l u e s ? * t ` - , 1' 21 A Yes, sir. 22 Q A n d y o u did n o t ' a g r e e that that c h e c k m a r k s h o u l d be 23 th ere? 24 A Yes, sir. 1 Q Did you say the check mark shouldn't be there? 2 A Yes 9 sir. i 3 Q And y o u k n o w that ea ch time it was t h e r e it w a s ,b e c a u s e 4 there was a value in that lab result, in:that lab reportthat 5 was outside the ranges given to us by M o n s a n t o ' s co un se l as 6 shown by 1509B, you know that, don't you, sir? -7 A No, s i r . 8 Q You don't know that? 9 A No, sir. I didn't think.we were talking about copro 10 p o r p h y r i n s and u r o p o r p h y r i n s w h e n we c a l l e d t h e m a b n o r m a l or ho 11 ab no r m a l , * 12 Q D o c t o r , y o u 'r e ,t a l k i n g about the e x a m i n a t i o n , ju st the 13 e x a m i n a t i o n by Mr. H e l n e m a n , a r e n ' t you? 44 A Yes, sir. 15 Q Y o u ' r e not t a l k i n g a b o u t the e x a m i n a t i o n that I 16 co nd u c t e d , are you? ,,r 17 A No, sir-. ; - r ; . ` <* ' I i; -* 18 Q A l l ri gh t l - So ,1! won' t c o n f u s e you, y o u r e c a l l w h e n X 19 e x a m i n e d you about 'the p o r p h y r i n s ? * * J ^, 1 ' ' ' i 20 A Y e s . 21 * Q Y o u w o u l d not a g r e e that th ey w e r e a b n o r m a l ? 22 A Ye s, sir. 23 Q And y o u w o u l d n ' t a g r e e b e c a u s e we w e r e c a l l i n g th e m 24 a b n o r m a l If th ey w e r e o u t s i d e of th es e r a n g e s and y o u w o u l d not '.*` I call them abnormal,, do you recall that, sir? 2 A Yes, sir- . .] 3 Q All right. Now, when Mr. Helneman examined you, 4 Dr. Roush,, he w e n t t h r o u g h the li pi ds and the other, did he 5 not? 6 A Yes, sir. ' 7 Q And In the case of the other,, w h e n e v e r you saw a 8 check ma rk there, you did hot use the creatinine finding to 9 determine whether or not that check mark was valid, did you? -- . 'i 10 Y o u d i s r e g a r d e d th is f i n d i n g for the c r e a t i n i n e s d l d n 11 you, 11 sir? 12 A D i s r e g a r d it In r e l a t i o n s h i p to wh a t ? . 13 Q Y o u said the c h e c k m a r k s h o u l d not be there. 14 A For c r e a t i n i n e ? 15 Q Yes. 16 A Yes, sir', but. I dn* t recall, t h o s e t h r e e b e i n g a p a rt 17 of the c h e c k - l i s t b e c a u s e we d i d n ' t have^`a r e f e r e n c e r a n g e for 18 those. - '* .V V" 1 L , - ; -, v* 11 \* 1r 19 Q Do c t o r , y o u h a v e had this r e f e r e n c e r a n g e f r o m the 20 1 b e g i n n i n g . The r e f e r e n c e r a n g e w a s ^ E x h i b i t 1509, it w a s put 21 into e v i d en ce . 22 A Y e s , s i r . 23 Q D u r i n g m y e x a m i n a t i o n of you. 24 A Yes, sir. v 1 Q Yo u had it du ri ng the time Mr. H e i n e m a n ex am in ed you? , 2 A Yes, sir 3 Q And d i d n ' t y o u d i s r e g a r d th os e v a l u e s set out in 1509' A at the time you were Interrogated by Mr. Heineman and gave your 5 response relative to the creatinine finding in the other column 6 A X don't recall that. 7 Q Doctor, assume.that when Mr. Heineman examined you that 8 you would not give credence to the creatinine finding in these . 9 v a r i o u s co lu mn s, c o u l d y o u do that', sir? 10 A Y e s , s i r . 11 Q Mow, in fact, that' c r e a t i n i n e w a s r e p o r t e d as a b n o r m a l 12 and w a s a b n o r m a l in a c c o r d a n c e w i t h the r e f e r e n c e r a n g e s gi ve n 13 us by y o u r a t t o r n e y s , t h e n y o u r t e s t i m o n y in that r e s p e c t w o u l d 14 be I n a p p r o p r i a t e , w o u l d . i t not, sir? It w o u l d be w r o n g ? 15 A Could I ha ve -that r e p e a t e d ? ,> 16 Q' Sure \ u h1 11% 17 (P re vi ou s q u e s t i o n w a s re ad by the r e p o r t e r . ) i * \ * - - 18 1, f -* >f* * *, - ,,h ` A Xf we re po rt e d ' t h e crea ti ni ne as a b n o r m a l , t h a t woul d 19 b*e wr on g; v ii ' 7- 'SI- ;* pJ >, !' 20 Q I'm sorry? , r. 21 A Xf we r e p o r t e d the c r e a t i n i n e as a b n o r m a l , that w o u l d 22 b e wr ong. 23 Q So wh at y o u sa id w a s in each, for I n s t a n c e , in the case 24 of Carter, Conte, Crame, Es mo n, Fay, Gary, H a r p e r , H e r m a n -- or 1 Heumann,' Herman as well, Huntley, Jenkins, Karsteter, Kirk, 2 Labonsky, Lewallen, Moore, Picarella, Purkey, Reusing, Richards 3 Schrock, I can't read J e r r y ' s h a n d w r i t i n g , Su moski, Tu rn er , C., 4 H., and J., Weber, Wilcox, In all of those Instances you 5 testified that the creatinine finding in all those men should 6 not be considered abnormal, did y o u 1not, sir? 7 MR. HEINEMAN: Objection, your Honor. He was not 8 asked specifically about creatinine,1 he was asked to look at 9 all the others, at least by me. 10 THE COURT: O b j e c t i o n is o v e r r u l e d . II A W o u l d y o u r e p e a t the q u e s t i o n for me? 12 ( P r e v i o u s q u e s t i o n w a s r e a d b y the r e p o r t e r . ) 13 A Yes, you can't te ll w h e t h e r t h e y ' r e a b n o r m a l or n o rm al . 14 T H E COURT: Do ct or , y o u ' v e -got to c o n c e n t r a t e on these > ; I P -" ! { f 15 q u e s t i o n s and r e m e m b e r t h e m t h r o u g h - o b j e c t i o n s . I' ve a s k e d 16 y o u this be f o r e , we ca n' t be r e p e a t i n g .every q u e s t i o n t h at 's 17 b e e n o b j e c t e d to ,v`so y o u h a v e to r e m e m b e r t h e m o v e r 1the c o u r s e 18 of the o b j e c t i o n . If n e e d be,, p u r p o s e l y d o n ' t l i s t e n to the 19 o b j e c t i o n , but y o u h a v e to l i s t e n to the q u e s t i o n s . 20 A My m i n d gets c a u g h t up on the o b j e c t i o n . 21 T H E COURT: W h y d o n ' t y o u ju st i g n o r e the o b j e c t i o n s 22 b e c a u s e I am the one who has to ta ke ca re of that. Y o u can't 23 do a n y t h i n g abou t that one w a y or the other. Mr. Carr, y o u 24 m a y p r o c e e d . 1 - Q Doctor, if In the Instance of all those persons that. 2 Mr. H e i n e m a n went through and what I a m trying to do Is to save 3 some time-- 1 4 A Yes, sir. 5 Q -- by not going through each of those exhibits again. 6 A Yes, sir, r i g h t . 7 Q And let me just show you Carter, for instance, look at 8 Carter's, X don't have the Court's exhibit here, look at my 9 exhibit on Carter and see whether or not you would agree as to 10 h o w m a n y a b n o r m a l i t i e s 6. C a r t e r had. I ta ke it t h a t ' s G. Cart 11 In the o t h e r column. 12 A - Ca rt er , G. . 13 Q ' Yes. 'y`-> j, ` 1''v ;.<^i -v' . > - 'jf ; - 14 A Yes-, sir / ' 1:y 1' 15 Q Now, In 'th*o t h e r column, 1 s i r 1,. u n d e r G. C a r t e r on " 1/i ` \ , 4 ji 16 E x h i b i t 1509, ther e is one c h e c k m a r k , is t h e r e not, sir? 17 a ' Yes, s i r / * , ` * v. A,?i;pyf 18 Q 1Nov,.vh o w m a n y othe r ab no rm al it ie s, do y o u find a c c o r d i n g * 19 to y o u r r e a d i n g of C a r t e r ' s re co rd ? 20 A Yes, sir. T h e c h o l e s t e r o l w a s the n o r m a l range. 21 Q Doctor, t h a t ' s a lipid. Now,, there, is a c o l u m n h e r e fo 22 lipids, and 1 am not A s k i n g you a b o u t l i pi ds , I'm, a s k i n g y o u 23 about the c o l u m n for the other. 24 A I w o u l d not ca ll t h e s e a b n o r m a l . L 1 Q Right. And so the creatinine finding there is what? 2 W h a t ' s , t h e n u m b e r s they,-give for t h e . c r e a t i n i n e for G. C a r t e r ? 3 A 2180 milligrams per liter. 4 r Q Now, is 2180 above or belo w the range of 800 to 1900?' 5 A It's above. 6 Q A l l right. So w h e n y o u w e n t t h r o u g h that' ex h i b i t , if 7 you saw 2180, would you say that's not abnormal, and therefore 8 there should be no checkmark in Exhibit 1507, isn't that correc 9 sir? 10 A Yes, sir. 11 .Q All ri ght. A n d n o w to save time, th e sa m e t h i n g is 12 tr ue w h e r e v e r one o.f these; c h e c k m a r k s in E x h i b i t 1507 is 13 r e p r e s e n t e d by c r e a t i n i n e .number that Vs o u t s i d e ,this te st range 14 t h a t ' s s h o w n in 1509B, y o u w o u l d say t h a t ' s not an a b n o r m a l i t y , i, ^ 15 w o u l d y o u not, sir? 16 A Y e s , s i r . J '1 V ; : 17 Q A n d that is the b a s i s for y o u r t e s t i m o n y th at all those 18 p e r s o n s that I re ad off to y o u t h a t . y o u sa id t h e y s h o u l d not . 19 h a v e a c h e c k m a r k in the o t h e r column, isn' t that co rr ec t, sir? 20 A X don't think so. 21 Q Y o u don't t h i n k so? 22 A No, sir. 23 Q Now, I'm ju st t a l k i n g a b o u t if the c h e c k m a r k o n l y 24 r e f e r s to cr ea t i n i n e . I'm not s a y i n g w h e r e t h e r e m a y be o t h e r 1 check marks, I don't want you to.get confused, but simply said 2 you gave no credit or credence to the Metpath report, on cfeatl 3 value, Isn't that correct, sir, when you testified under 4 questioning by Mr. Helneman? 5 A Yes, sir. Q6 All right. And Doctor, If your te st im on y is wrong, 7 that Is, If you e l i m in at ed the c r e a t i n i n e ' f i n d i n g by m i s t ak e 8 in these number of men, then the check mark should be in that 9 place.in that column, should they not? 10 A 1 don't know how you determine abnormal or normal. Q11 Doctor, that Isn't, what" I am asking you. All I'm 12 saying, If you are mistaken, then the check mark should be 13 t h e r e , s h o u l d n ' t it, sir?. ;* 14 A If I am mistaken, yes, sir, yes, sir. Q15 Yes. A n d D o c t o r 1,; that, is/the^ o v e r w h e l m i n g m a j o r i t y 16 of p l a c e s w h e r e y o u d i s a g r e e d w i t h -the p r e s e n c e or the a b s e n c e 17 of check marks, It deals with the creatinine finding, doesn't 18 it, sir? 19 MR. HEIHEMAN: Objection. You mean In the other columi 20 only? ' 21 MR. CARR: Yes, in the other column. 22 A I don't recall it that way. Q23 Doctor, just look at the last ten, look from Lewallen, 24 Moore, P i c a r d a , Purkey, Renslng, Richardson,' Schrock, Sumoski .tv. 57 1 - ,Turner,- H; V - * / J . V W e b r ,and W i l c o x / and see. if 'that I s n ' t / ; .truei ^could/ve, have that-.exhibit, the Group Exhibit 1504? The `'3-, v 'only way: we' can do' i t / D o c t o r , is to go t h r o u g h - o n e by one.' . 4 ' . N o w , D o c t o r , . y o u l o o k e d / a t .Carter and' y o u s a i d y o u d l d n 't u e e 5 i t , / l o o k at .the ne xt one, Conte, a f t e r C a r t e r . \ 6 1 ':- ,A. .T h e y V r e Jout `o f - o r^d e r . - -, /* /' . 7 'i 1/ Q T h e y r e ? / -Then W':wiil/besliere a i l - - ' ' .. ^ r.'_ . ;v ,.8 A I c a n ' t f i n d Conte; but th ey ar s o m e w h a t i n o r d e r .:9 10 11 12, 13/ but'not one .hundred percent .' , ' /' Q L W h a t about ` Z - *\* i-i - / ;/./. .f . A n d r e w s , is he on top?, .r r. / /- / r1;/ - ... --z / / V 1 `/- 1- / / / / A , / / : / / a ,'-'/ - ' / / ' Q LLo o k at A n d r e w s and see if ::t h e r e Ii s n ' t a,,-tthere' is One / /, \ V ` / ^ /J- v , T " 3.*>' y A " // ? ^`. ' ; c h e c k mark*, Jin-'AAnnddrreewws i o r-ootthheerr. btfnn-.-11550:07;;,, is t h e r e rnot? 14^ , ' . A T h e .se!ccoonndd..;p a g e .is m l s s i n g f r o m th at one.;1 '/ / J, . / v -;'V, ^ ,_ J 15 \ Q .Here f'.it is. , 'r . ........ - 16 -sr \ / // ' I ' m sotry.' ' ^ / z r' \ .// - - \ "17.( i. r ` 18 V` / Q ` it j u s t c a m e off .- ` f" 4 " f ' ,. * I - '/ t ^ / ' _, ' A , Tout question, sir? * - .f- ; . * 1 ^ .v *y , .1 " .19 / Q .w a n t . y o u ' t o / l o q k kat the Exhibit- I5p7 and see if , 20 'there isfone' c h e c k m a r k in the C o l u m n 1507' in other. _ Y o u ' r e n4.t 21: . / l o o k i n g at 150.7, D o c t o r , 'this is 1507 h e r e .. T h e r e is .one 22 c h e c k m a r k for A n d r e w s . / . , /. > * ,, 23 . '( ' ** J" fc" 'A Yes,', sir; ' j *' _ i j' i ^" T * ^: - * / '. 24 Q N o w , l o o k a t - t h e A n d r e w s lab report, and see h o w m a n y T O R N fL 24 8 58 . 'J ^ 1 a b n o r m a l i t i e s t h e r e a r e 'other, t h a n .the c r e a t i n i n e v a l u e in the", \T', 3. o t h e r co lu mn . *;v LL , - /" ; A O n e '. _ ``V 1' . ' . `v / \ ; - * ; ' 1* ' - - Q4. : An d w h a t is t h a t , ' s i r ? ,5". A. T r i g l y c e r i d e . 6, ' 7; ' S.' 8 -1 Q T h a t ' s .a lipid, Do ct or . A Y e s ', 'sir. ,Q: No,w, ar e t h e r e ahy--^ .9;' 10, A All tight, no.- ,,/ ' Q 1' > i\r-r-r< rv; J,v*.* iriS' !'/-U i A l l t i g h t '. .And-;theref ore*'when' y o u t e s t i f i e d w i t h ` j*f \)]i ; 1j-' r*i'\ iii,r'-v\^ - v 7^' . i Jf1 * 11 Mr. H e l n e m a n , ,y o u d i s r e g a r d e d the c h e c k m a r k in l507 b e c a u s e ,it : r" - ' '" V l'J_t i" ,.j- 'l ' ''' 11 t 'r-,`1 12 r e l a t e s to c r e a t i n i n e , ;.;isia-Tt thati t r u e / i s i r ? / 13 -. ' -A-' -Yes, ,si.r. f*.V ?->.' < `i'n'1 V' 'i -*' A4 -TV'- ... ^ ", ' i. i'; >, >s; t*, $ - ,v '-kL. . '' : .. f ", r 14 Q And'vttie n e x t o n e ' w o u l d 1be B a d y ; ,l Y o u d i s r e g a r d e d a .15 c h e c k m a r k for .Bady as.:well, did y o u hot, sir? T h e y 're. r e a i l y 16 , out o f . o r d e r . J W e l l ; 'l e t ' s j u m p to B i c k f o r d . L o o k :at B i c k f o r d . 17 . T h e r e is one c h e c k In 1507 ;for o t h e r for. Bickford', is ther e n b ;t? > 18^ . \r' .A / Y e s `/ jsir'; 1 'r-.'L;^' 1'*'r,v .. - `V 1 19 " 1 Q '*- Now, l o o k at h i s .lab; r e p o r t . C r e a t i n i n e is 'below, the' 20 l i n e of a s t e r i s k s , 'is it hot , sir? ` yh .' ^ 1 ' * 4' 1 11 " * t Ji * t 1 " .- ' v *r . f " ,, - 21 A' Y e s , si r v. ' ' p" ' ,r -1 ` '' f 1" - i :',r' * 22 - Q . A n d it is o u t s i d e the r a n g e - g i v e n i n - E x h i b i t 1509D, i s ; 1* * , . . ^ ' * _j ,,,,s ^ {; -^ Jr.'/: -r;; - 23 it/not, sir? lt%ls e i t h e r l o w e r thainf 800 or h i g h e r th an the^ 24 * 1900, is it not? PENGJkD CO.. BAYONNE. ,,N.J. 0T002 FOR" IL 2* B 1 V, - 5 9: -` - A 1Y e s , ,sir. - -" '1 , T J ' . 2, ; . Q A n d y o u .did. hot ,\;you testified," t h e n *t h a t t h e r e ' s h o u l d not be a c h e c k n a r k la the other:;c o l u m n for,; Bady, did,-you not, sir? "> -A - ^ Y e s , s i r - J ; ^ ^ ; .5.-;' / V ` " '5- . -V Q s 6;'*, 1rL ' -"p 7.V 1, A Q' A l l .right . Now, Do ct or , do es rthat now--. .1 v - 1 t* ** ' Iunderstand. 't j * J, * p * 4< 'v. >* .( y a ^ - < *" * ^ " Si v So n o w w h e r e v e r t h e r e w a s a. c r e a t i n i n e , * f i n d i n g , y o u : */ 8 d i s r e g a r d e d thht w h e n y o u t e s t i f i e d w h e n M r . H e i n e m a n w a s a s k i n g ,,v`. t - J; i, \ r * j, -'i; ) ,'f y - r .< ij f ,/ 9 r_ y.o-u t.ques 1>1 b n s >vd f{!dn1fVt.L yr'o\ u^fs-r.i r ? ^ '\ ?4 rj*-/.;' -. - , V L ."-:v ^ *::j" f - - ' 1 -vi. r '. ,1 ' i - - >' ,v io. .Yes, s i r / ` ri > V ' j* ; v,-,. *. `V./ - ' . *. Q .D id he not asky you. to ide'ntify;,the. abnormalifry that ,' , 12 T w a s i \ t h a t y o u w e r e e l i m i n a t i n g ^ y o u .simply sa id :in;.those instances' > " ..,,; *5 " -f'.-'" J! ,V `5?':i * ^ r i t ~r' ' -' , 13 . there, s h o u l d 'riot* be a c h e c k m a r k t h e r e , didn-11 ,y o u , / s i r ? 14. - *' A 15; : - Q* Yes, sir. 1 ./ ' ir ` J . A n d y o u didn't, tell* us thst;it was the c r e a t l h i n e that, r 16 y o u w e r e e l i m i n a t i n g , ^did. you, D o c t o r ? ; , 17 A / I d i d n ' t e v e n .-realize; it. ,r . ; 18 * / ^ q\ \ s i r ? *' . 'J l /' " . > v : T1` '/ . y"`v 19 L . A ` i d i d n ' t ^realize it,. . . ". ` 20 ** r '* Q- ' Y o u d i d n V t r e a l i z e w h a t H r . H e i n e m a n w a s d o i n g ? ^ ' r '.- a. * -v . *, /' ,' ,v * ; J '' - 21 ` A I didn't realize we were 'eliminating creatinine. .-' . 22 . Q You didnVfr realize when you went through a long litany ;r ; ^ , - \ /.T. ... . ^ V r V " ' 23" of this u h e c k m a r k s h o u l d n ' t be t h e r e ' a h d th is .check' m a r k s h o u l d n ' t -> f * -' f s " jm m4 - 1j ; J ' 1 .^ 24 be t h e r e that in thos e i n s t a n c e s y o u a n d 1H e i n e m a u w e r e t a l k i n g - TJZ W-,-t SAVONNE. N.J. 07002 ',, s / ' - 60 1 ab ou t c r t i n i n e Y - ..v ' ' ; . * .. \ 'A ' A > r / N o , S ir."; '' ` J `V- v ,1 vVZ,-.-1' 3 * ..Qt . D o c t o r ; do, y o u think; it .would 'h a v e ,b e e n a m o r e e x p e d i t i o u s v* 4 ' use o f ; o'tir time* if y o u and; Mr / H e i n e m a n had. s i m p l y s a i d y o u are.r, - * ' d i s r e g a r d i n g the cr t inline'range as n o r m a l or.^abnormal instead,; ` 6 ' of g o i n g t h r o u g h a l l .t h e s e e x h i b i t s s you' and Mr.. -Heineman did,, 7 w h e n ali y o u w a r e "doing "was e l i m i n a t i n g in t h e o v e r w h e l m i n g ..8 v '9 10 m a jo ri ty of c a s s ' t h ' finding f o r c h e crt inine ? V . D o n ft you - . w .< > ! ^ 'T \ . , r\ ^ 4 ' !J ' ... - -, . ... V ; V . Xj ,. , ' '' t h i n k 'it ,w o u l d h a v e b e e n a b e t t e r u s e of, our t i me "f or y o u s i m p l y '' E| . , r1 1 N V *,V*T to h a v e s a id: that? V;- o "V *. t- V ,> T , ** f )//. * ' 1 1J C ' ;Vpl --* * * ' .< r " i'` ' J` - .^ * \ . lV ,v riz j 2;. 1 ;MR.--.HEINEMAN: Ob J a c t i o n ,^ y o u r . H o n o r , m a y b e :if .w o u l d - . - ir_ , /L ^ * ('"1, (V ^(t J ` ^ J _ J*' ^ f *, " ' '" ` * 1 . ; l ' J1'.i i ^ ' ;* <`i ' Y (1 . - ` ,1 have been, helpfulvif Mr.^ Carr-had' identified, on the form what v; F1 13 the c h e c k m a r k s w e r e for. " - - J^ . 14: > MR. CARR: W e l i , counsel, y o u are. n o t ' t h a t .ignorant of :.is the fa ct s of this. case. ' f -, t v r '\r- .` ' 16 j THE 'COURT: O b j e c t i o n is. o v e r r u l e d . -It w a s a p r o p e r .17 question; = J . 18 r 19 20 l. A 1 didn*t, k n o w 't h a t w a s c r e a t i n i n e w e werei e l i m i n a t i h g . i - ` . J ` . .j. vt , , * , 11 - ; v *' "* ,Q ' D o c t o r ; y o u looked-at- the v a l u e on each'^of t h e s e i n s t a n c e ^ j ` ,S' ~j -1 . ' ^* :hat c r e a t i n i n e i s below; this ;line for normal or abnormal, was.lt -21 t o t ? k- . - ' . . ,, V ` _ 22* A. Y e s , s i r , **'* ' -V ; `23 ;Q- Y o u knew, the s i g n i f i c a n c e o f - t h a t linei didn't-'you, sir? / ,- .^ r* `Tr ' ms ^ If ^ ' 1 24 A- Yes, sir.. -- ; ' "- V " 1" ` . . "V * BAYONNE. N.J. >1 /. 1 .t "2,* Q A n d y o u k n e w c r e a t i n i n e w a s d o w n 'ther e w h e n y o u '- 'r * V > ,J - " - , . \ r L.'-' i eliminated, i n e a c h . o f these, i n s t a n c e s d i d n ' t you, sir, y o u could '. V * .' J r A. _- H, " `^ r. / . . / see it. w a s down, ther e b e l o w the line, .couldn' t-you,, sir? 4 -^ A Ties, 'sir. "/ r ,r . V 1 : ; 1' 5 -l .6 . - Q So below that -A "L 1X > j ,,' ' ' 'J 7" ' you.did know that you were eliminating something line for abnormal? - .J v V .7 8 '.A' -Q No,, D' r. si 1r, \yK-` ''X [.'d i d'r-3l-/n ovti^JJS1`'*, '>\ , , St 1, . '-,\ / ". * RT)'om uisJhl'*i>,': **'1*h*Aor*wvV:>jf;cev aM* ni 1 *y9o~A'^iuai r e a dV-A / `-r ^ AA 4t>hVeA *,"f'tr**eAiJctoA rV 4d4sM '' raA sn ! is* , Jn put out ' .9; / . 10 V -. . t -. L l_,^ i ", --v*. } - . , .,,v ' ;f ' t. t heJ.re" as 'pi- ain as*i`;ca>'n, 1b if e wth e*nV-iyIo u M o o tI> iced*"r"'at. .t h a t r e c1o r d ,' y o u "'i;`j ,' r - 3 If- 'r ^ *-' ;t'" `K > X Jf J 'S ' _ . looked at these.thlngs that were below the test line, didn't l} you, sir ? I'i U ' ';i i,b .. ; v -` V '` : 12 , v -A Y e s , .s i r . r ;,13 ' Q And y o u can see on this, one c r e a t i n i n e i s - b e l o w the, test 14 line., can' t you, sir? j > . - ' . 15 , 16 V .A Y e s s i r ' . - . <t \ Q ' And. you see the'copro b e l o w the test line, lipids, total 17 and s e r u m - a n d ^iron is below, the l i ne ?.- ` '18 ; ,r - v ,J ,%; ^ 1 r ?' . A - Y e s '--sir'. . ' >'v -; 1 <\\{ /L- ' ' T ..r r - ' - , i " . 'J< . / i9 20 ' 21; '1 22 - 23J Q An d when. y o u ;testified in the'case of M r .^Boeckman, you r" .i;1'. ' ' 1 , ,. V" i ' '*' -l'"lf- e l i m i n a t e d the c r e a t i n i n e , di'dh't yciu>J sir?. . r \ . .* ' ;J., ,J- .,'*.L. 'r f"' . ,r' `^ A / Y e s , s i r .' ' 1 r/ r .. ` . - 'r ` - k -- : J. ; ; .r ' -fi,'t; 1 1, Q " " -Bu't y o C u ' v-d iJ d'r'r~W n o t .el^iminate the * n, iron, \ *, o.r, the ' *1 \ to ta'l lipids, rt ' x . -t 1 1 L /"'* ' . j ' a ^ , ''- 1 . - did you, sir? J '. ". ' 24. A* That's -right. -. ' * *^L, ' >7 BAYONNE. N.J. 07001 FORM IL 24 B , ' ,Q A n d you,fdid. n o t know' w h a t y o u w e r e d o i n g w h e n w e s p e n t ' 2, t h e - a f t e r n o o n g o i n g t h r o u g h t h o s e e x h i b i t s ? , ... ; 3 '4 , -A * No, sir.-^ .^ >7" -j ',1 ( f , ' I `. 1 r " ' V: A-.1 -i'1' . ,V '1'"''" tr- . . - ; /w Q D o c t o r 4,' did a n y b o d y e v e r tell you w h y t h e y did not m e a s u r e 5 v the u r i n e ,sa that they, c o u l d u s e t h e ;s p o t . s a m p l e g i v e n j u st as 6 Moses/Sellkoff used the spot sample given for the porphyrins?1 7 8' 4< , 9. 'V 10 A V I ' m s o t r y ' w o u l d `yo u r e p e a t > t h a t ? \ i'i* A K that question,;for 'me? v Would you repeat. \ /. ; . '-1 ' . . ^ '* *t _, . 1 tJpA ( P r e vi ou s q u e s t i o n '1,w a s ' r e a d .by 'tlh e r e p o r t e r . ) V|C/ :iTw ? VU ; A Yo u '.don't have, to 'measure' the u r i n 1to do 'sp ot sa mp le s. 11 Y ouu , d o n ? t , n e e d - - ( " `i i !. Y ft A W VI 'if V JV'i ' f., 1.2; ;. q 13 V- -A Doctor^ then you. don't need, to m e as ur e the urine?- No, sir, not to.doVspot sample. - r . . Jf 14, ; u Q '15/" A .You did a spot sample# didn't you? 1 ; ' .Yes, s i r , but/you, d o n *t n e e d to .m e a s u r e v o l u m e to do PENGAD CO.. BAVONNE,' NiJ. 07001 fORM IL 149 16 that ; 17 ;. Q SO -these^values <;then that,,were r e p o r t e d w e r e p r o p e r then! 18 T h e s e v a l u e s that w e r e reported, we c a n ' u s e 'those a s v i n d i c a t i n g . 4 F V 1 .* * t (> - - , \L ! . ( ;/ 1- ' r " k * . ' ,V 7 19 : ab no rm al it ie s?. -, ' ' V " \ - , '.L ' - 20 " ... A. No, s i r , r y o u .can u s e a sp o t s a m p l e to get t h o s e co ncentre 21 tion s as p r e s e n t e d there,, yes', sir. . " ` 22 Q A n d j can y o u do that C a l c u l a t i o n -as p r e s e n t e d h e r e j u s t r 23 as* M p s e s / S l i k p f f .did? - 24 .A Yes,,sir,. ; L , - ' ;r \ ;- 63 - -1 '' ' 3" '4 5 ' : Q .'/ Q A Q D i d y o u e v e r do' it? . I've. done it since;.the t r i a l has s t a r te d. ` r ' < `` ` 1 ^ " "V r ,\ ' Oh, y o u h a v e n o w ' d o n e ;it si nc e the -trlaiwtias s t a r te d? Y e s , sir. -'V ` . . v .; V `. .- % . S':: T ' 1 - '*''t- ' ,. v4 ' ' 'i p - ' ' , . And wherev are those-results, Doctor?. . ' 6, J A In miyy offiiccee..-y p P - i y f y f i * .-*>: - - 7y q M a y I, h a\v e% a ci-o`pJy , kZp`l:-ease-?* i *v.*jV: >- j* * ' - s;/ ^A Yes,.sir. 1 y\vy7r H\ ^ ; -V ' i . - - J1 -. ._ I|*'...,'\ - yl * < ' , --J- ,j if , - ? : Q Did y o u d o it/.f orP the N i t r o p eop 1 e as w e l l ? 1 '* t'l 10 J . il ny A ;`No, ,rI h a v e n 11 ;got around,-to-do v t h a t , but I ,will. * '^ ' ' ^ J V ^j , ' ^- iX H-i ` i 3 . v* v '^ 4 * \ ;'v* ^. *. - " J / , Q Now,,'Doctor, 'to d o this, d o n V t y o u n e e d to :knowt the v ^ V p Jw ' "a m u s c l e m a s s of the p e r s o n ? '^ \> 1 - ^k 13. V'. 14 k A Not to do it l i k `E l k i n s did it. '' : " L. , - -;\}\r -P- ''' Q Like who did it? - , ,1 , 15 . "^A :^r -P The' c o r r e c t i o n o f ,M o s e s P;'- P ^ c o r r e c t e d u s i n g fthe / P ~C [ ' Elkins ' ... 16* p r o c e d u r e and/ d o i n g the Elkins' p r o c e d u r e y o u ta ke the c o n c e n t r t :.on > ' 1718 o i - 1 8 0 0 r is .the n u m b e r O f m i l l i g r a m s e x c r e t e d .per day. in the .* i f j - 'j J 4* -J-r'^ * v ' ^^ * f J * -I *;r . t+ ,y \ , p* 1 k i n s p r o c dur' :and y o u 'd iy ide th at b y Lt h e o b s rv.ed c r e a t i n i n e - 19;' " 20:- which in read it. thi.s 'ca se w o u l d be .640, I can^ t r e a d J j. v - . -t - ". - * `1 A ^ _, * 1 /' " 's., , ,,/.r,V . > ^ ., ' it we ll ,.I 1 1 1* imi can*t^ / ., 21 ' q 4 0 ? - /-'r . Ij 1 V \ p - , ; J ;;p. r ... v- ^'j" .'''**+* - ^ *. r - ' * ' p ,i t r *(h` >( 22 A , You- d i v i d e the 640 in to 1800 and" m u l t i p l y ' i t timesP.the; 23 : o b s e f v e d `p o r p h y r i n . T h a t r e p o r t c a m e ' o u t , I t h i n k , in 1971 and * ' '. .. j . Al ' i" * ' ' S '- ~ * 24 t h e r e are so m a n y g e n e r a l i z a t i o n s .in the E l k i n s procedure, that ' PENGA).CO., BAYONNE, N.J, -0700* YOBM IL "24B  . ' : -/ -;-.v . * > "V ' * - V /'' ... ; .'V: ',ta V . .1 ' you really should do It a s ^ y o u s u g g e s t e d d o l n g i t ^ based on > 1 .i2 : m u s c l e mass', .and that adds .av c o m p l i c a t i o n becausei muscle* mass, Is 3 . s o m e h o w g o i n g t o . h a v e to, do. it w i t h body, s u r f a c e -areai, w i t h b o d y J 4.'* w e i g h t and -change it to k i l o g r a m s b e c a u s e It is. r e p o r t e d in 2 0 'j ' - V V'"'` v* ' ... % 5 to 26 milligrams, per. k i l o g r a m p e r d a y i > , .But I h a v e d o n e i t , ' w h a t * S ' i; ; J .* { H : <>' vl v: i-'..' k , . . , ?_..* y ^ i'l'''.i'v'''-* \\ !>: . tV; "- 6 I h a v e d o n e is I 'v e _repeated;;the - M b s e s / a p p r o a c h to this and I 1 7 -K h "1 1 'jJ * 't t ,'. i* h ._^ 1 , v 'J , do' h a v e Aa co\py 'V\--o-j.f. ',t`that*>V:'/.. Wt'Li-*,*?^<> - i 'f$ ,f > - '' ^ '- - . . - Q D o c t o r , did ^you^ev'er d i s c u s s Fwith" S u s k i n d w h y h e d l d n 11 .. 9 do s o m e t h i n g . e l s e w i t h it hese`p o r p h y r i n v a l u e s o t h e r t h a n u s e t h e n , > i>: -y- >* . - - * . , i ; o n c e and' th en e l i m i n a t e them? : : M `r ` No, siFrt. j. * ,. ^ , ^.' ^ ^ :* ' .* `1 4- . ' r -' j ,k s** *. ` i * -- r* rs. .^ 12 , Q-' D o c t o r / y o u h a v e t e s t i f i e d - as to the M o s e s / S e l i k o f f .study. : 13 o n ^ t h e s e spot. u r i n e s , did you ever, w e l l , let .me'^put it a *? - l v',. tS' J , 1" 1 t ,,`i 1p. y#; _yr ,, - *-- i^ . *: 14 * d i f f e r e n t way.. .You knew, y o u ' v e a l w a y s ^ k n o w n t h a t - p o r p h y r i n s ...- .*15-* a r e i m p o r t a n t in d e t e r m i n i n g w h e t h e r or. not l i v e r s h a v e b e e n . > 16 d a m a g e d by d i o x i n exposure', Isn't" that co r r e c t , sir?' ' f '17 v A / ^Yes', -sir. - , '* * v " y 1 . ^ ^ -/ *- J*' ' f. 1 i8 ' ' ./ Q And.-you k n e w that the urinary; p o r p h y r i n s W e r e to be ` ;; ^ 1J9-/ m e a s u r e d in b o t h of t h e s e , s t u d i e s ? i/ ' .- "20 A .rrY e s , s i r i y. - ^ ' : ; ' - ? ' - 1 /' l 21 Q A n d .in f a c t ; `S'uskind. u s e d t h e m in one i n s t a n c e , didn' t . 22 V ,< 4 -r 4 'j * p ' *-rN "--''i. * ' ,, jm*, -- 4 T F t' -p he, sir, c a m e . u p w i t h a h i g h n u m b e r of a b n o r m a l i t i e s , d i d n ' t /. 23 , he, sir?'' % -'.'V ' 'r ^24 v' A- In his draft, report, he d i d . J 1 / PENGAO CO.. BAYONNE. N,J; <07002 FORN lC^24B j, '-- t "j v *' l It' < 1 :.rQ # D o c t o r , t h o s e f i n d i n g s c o u l d / b e i m p o r t a n t in a n y k i n d of i, E *r ^2'y \ h ea 1 1h 1s tu d y ,, ,can *t .th 0y , sir ? '. >, . ' Jt J J , -V * 1 i j' \ i- > 3J "/ -A - T h e y .can be. / / V .4 Q .B u t rthey^ can/t>,be* i n th is health,, s t u d y , a c c o r d i n g to ,,,.v. , . , iv^ `.7'*1(,, i,/ " ).p1 ,1 '9fJ, -?' "V1 -< r ', ; (^j " ' -.L -J' ' . ' /,> 5 y o u r r e ckonniinngg: b e c a u s e y o u W o n 't g i y e them, v a l i d i t y , i s n 't that 6 7" 8"' correct, Sir? VT ; 'f -- - i , " V , iL- ^ f- ' ' f V ' *r ^ ?y-. v A V D e p e n d s ' h o w ""they *re u s e d . '' ' ' . - '.- ' /- , v h .. *i " -- .Q . Well, y o u ;hayeti't jg l y e n V ftheW-.any v a 1,1d i t y thus - v_ * ," fa r , ha\ - % 1 y o u / `sir? ^ 0 A I 've told y o u I h a v e d o n e t h e m r e c e n t l y , - , /V `,, '* v.V- ' v' \ ji , Q Doctor-, th at V a s ornt h i n g that, y pu have' d o n e silica the 12V , s t a r t o f th is case, that-ls s o m e t h i n g / t h a t y o u :h a v e p r e p a r e d for 13 a ..particular m o t i v in mind,, it; is s o m e t h i n g that y o u h a v e done, 14 so to s p e a k after, th h o r s e g o t . o u t of ,the .barn, or ra t h e r , the 15 -/ /stable. ^ ` - ... PENGAd' CO" BAYONNE N.J, 07002 FORM IL,4 B 16 A ; No, s i r.- '' 'V *V *" V . t-,. ' '' 17-: ' , - Q Sir? ; :V 18. r._ .A-.- .No i sir. v; f; y.v' /' J" ' V \ ' ; ' 19/ Q* You. h a v e n 11 d o n e / i t in response, to th at .attack that w,efr 20 m a k i n g oh M o n s a n t o b e c a u s e of these abnormal-^porphyrins?, 21 22 ; A We, ;did. t h e m because. Of .the q u e s t i o n of thse,' y e s ^ ' Q Yes, I n d e e d / . D o c t o r 1, w h e n - y o u / w e n t .through the Krtimmric 23 ' h e a l t h study,p did y o u ad^d ^up h o w m a n y of y o u rJVhw o r kJeu/r s- ^m a k e c^o m p l a i n t s 'b ^ mf 1 ^ 24 of being ti re d all the time?. " v .' ,y ^ ' , . V ' ' -* ; ' .. r ' ? " ^'' i.-' , * 'p " /,* ^ * > . 'A-'-.Yes, sir, _. V O' iJ ` F " '' " ''' ' l ' ;1 \:\i. * ^ ; :Q H o w many, a i r ? '.", ./ ' ^ -,"' ; ` . *ft;, " ! ^ ; r' 3r ,;4". A *\ I d o n 1t, r e c a l l , b u t / I d i d t a b u l a t e i t ' *. ' -- , " 'u h v.; ?" ;7 -- V . ; ` 1 Q It was; a; thi^rd. ^pf1 y o u r / p e o p l e /33> c o m p l a i n e d ab ou t h a v i n g 5 fa t i g u e , -being rtired all .the time, d i d n 't they, sir? ' r - - ,, / y V / r- < ' y ;; ,T '* - ` \ "T'" .-O' ^ f-' / ' >L V ^ >V j*- ` - r / i- 6 - - I don ' r e c a l l :f K el/ n u m b t w v ' 11 ' 7/ . : Q`^ '" Sir? '* rO" .-;V'ri;Vtr * V' ->.0-.;-*r`V<'*vtr /r ;;i. > 8 A I d o n 't r e c a l l the, n u m b e r , ' " '- -' J - ; '`, ' 9 *. 10 Q Well, how- m a n y h a d b l e e p d i f f i c u l t y ? . ' *\ " r *"F " .AJ Twenty percent, - j 'j lr ^ r L -, 't r11 v. "p- . Sir?' L`- " . 1 - \'r .,. ' :r. - '/", ` ' ' ;/ - 1 12 ; A T w e n t y percent',^-;.' r-. rf' 1 1 ; ' .; .'; * j l V 13. \ -Q Is 35. twenty^ p e r c e n t /of *108? . r 14 ' ^ / A- ' Is 25 what?' . " ^ / _ . _ / ' * 'r1*5 Q., Is;. 35i t w e n t y .percent, of* 108? ' L -, /,t0t ' '16" A t thought', there, w a s le ss th an >that| I 'thought t h e r e was SoO*. ` ,17 ; 25.'- ' *; : ' r. V . 1`/ / ` .. _ 'y* ` y ,- PENGO COI. BAYONNE. N.J, 2 18 z Q Did y o u t a b u l a t e them, D o c t o r ? ..Did you-being* a n y t h i n g ' , * 10 19 -with you?- . -* .J O '" 'f *- ,, ( 1 ^ y j. 1 L i 1 *r\ - `J" ,: UOXl . 20 . ''; r - , A-" ' No, . sir.,; VY f I 've" got j' it b a c k in m y offic.v '.0 j ,J, ' - . ' ' ' ,V . 21 Q W h a t a b o u t the h e a d a c h e p r o b l e m ? H o w manyf did y o u f i nd ;22 had h e a d a c h e problems?. ,,. ;^ - 23 t 24 ir '''_^F- A A b o u t f i f t y p e r c e n t . - ^ j. /> ' \. Q S e v e n t y - f o u r - r e s p o n d e d t h e y .had...headache1 p r o b l e m s *, ^ r .' J -r^ r A ! Y^ > ,r ' ' i * _i _ ,h ''" j'^ "- - r '-1; . ` , 1 * ti* t ` fL ^ P ,- ,, t *9` " 1 A Could well be. 2 Q Sir? 3 A Could well be. 4 Q And you say t h a t 's 50 percent? 5 A I d o n 't re ca ll , I d o n 't ha ve it w i t h me. 6 Q All right, Doctor. Doctor, If you, and It Is a simple 7 mathematic calculation to check off the numbers that have headac 8 complaints or sleep difficulties or fatigue and neurobehavioral 9 problems ? 10 A Yes, sir. 11 Q I take it fr om your r e s p o n s e that it gives you no c o n c e r 12 If a si za bl e p e r c e n t a g e of y o ur plant, of y o ur p e o p l e that ha ve 13 b e e n e x p o s e d to th es e c h e m i c a l s In 237 and 236 h a ve thes e c o m p l a 14 I take it that does not c o n c e r n y o u at M o n s a n t o ? 15 A Yes, sir. 16 Q It does c o n c e r n you? 17 A Yes, sir, if they w r i t e d o w n an an sw er , yes. 18 Q Now, Do ct or , these s y m p t o m s that we r e there, t h ey w e r e 19 th er e for a p u r p o s e ? 20 A Yes, sir. 21 Q Yo u c a nn ot r e a l l y a n a l y z e that s t u d y w i t h o u t t a k i n g Into 22 account those s y m p to ms , can you, sir? 23 A No, sir, you c a n 't. Q24 But S u sk ln d did e x a c t l y that, d i d n ' t he, sir? I A; No, sir. 2 Q D o c t o r , w a s there' a n y p l a c e that he r e s p o n d e d to the 3 complaints these people made? Is there any place In that exhibi j * L t" r * 4 where he even mentions the questloriG asked and the responses 5 made? r , \ \.'*. ; ' } . " ^ v 6 A No, -sir. , 7 Q Now, Doctor, he d i d n 't deal with It If he d i d n 't mention 8 I t , did h e , sir? 9 A No, sir, he d i d n 't. Y o u c a n 't s a y ' h e did or he d i d n 't, 10 b a s e d on w h a t 's there. 11 Q Now, Do c t o r , b a s e d on w h a t 's there, you c a n say that 12 he di d not b e c a u s e it i s n 't there. 13 A N o , s i r . 14 ; q Is it, sir? 15 A N o , sir. ' Q16 Are you s a y i n g It is th ere? Y o u are a g r e e i n g that it 17 is not there? if 18 A Yes, sir. . Q19 Yes., And y o u h a v e no e v i d e n c e at all that he d e a l t \ 1 20 w i t h if he d o e s n ' t e v e n m e n t i o n it, do you, sir? 21 A No, sir. 22 Q D o c t o r , y o u ta lk ed ab ou t s e t t i n g up y o u r o w n T L V for 23 your e x p o s u r e to yo ur c h l o r o p h e n o l s , do y o u r e c a l l that, sir? 24 A Y e s , s i r . ' 1 Q And that was at your Krummrich plant? 2 A Yes, sir. 3 Q And Doctor, you said as a level for your TLV, an Irritation of the skin, didn't you, sir? 4 A Or the respiratory tract. 5 6 Q Some Irritation? A Yes, sir. 7 8 Q Nov, Doctor, that's an acute effect, Isn't It, sir? 9 A Not necessarily. 10 Q Well, 18 I r r i t a t i o n of the sk in s o m e t h i n g that y o u can 11 see ? 12 A S o m e t i m e s . 13 Q Y o u ' r e s a y i n g that y o u h a v e an I r r i t a t i o n of the skin, 14 and Do ct or , w h a t good Is y o u r TLV, y o ur T L V you said Is w h e n It 15 w i l l c a u s e an I r r i t a t i o n of the skin? 16 A Or eyes or no se or throat. 17 Q So as far as y o u ' r e c o n c e r n e d , there Is no limit to w h i c h 18 a p e r s o n m a y not be e x p o s e d to, and t h e r e ' s c h l o r i n a t e d p h e n ol s, 19 so long as It d o e s n ' t I r r i t a t e his eyes, nose, or throat, that's 20 w h a t you are saying, Isn't that co rr ec t, sir? 21 A No, sir. 22 Q W h at are yo u s a yi ng ? W h a t is the limit to w h ic h, w h e r e 23 you're g o i n g to d r a w the line that they can' t be e x p o s e d to? 24 A We are s a yi ng that this Is so s u f f i c i e n t l y i r r i t a t i n g ' - >. ' i T' r \ ~ ('i , ,J; " V jr: V -VA `- ' . ' 1 t h a t . y o u m u s t keep it down or they w i ll h a v e irrita ti on , and 2 that's what we'ye observed. * j r 5 . : ; ; v . r ' >'* 3 Q Now, Doctor, you were testifying for Mr. Heineman, you 4 were talking about your^TLV. He asked you what was the TLV set 5 for different toxic substances and you said that none had been 6 set for c h l o r i n a t e d phenols, an d that y o u h a v e set ,y o u r o w n TLV? 7 A Yes,' sir. f 8 Q And that TLV was the irritation level? 9 A Yes, sir. 10 Q So w h a t that m e a n s is, so lo ng as th ey re not i r r i t a t d 11 by e x p o s u r e `t h e r e , ey es or n o s e or t h r o a t are not I r r i t a t e d by 12 e x p o s u r e to the- c h e m i c a l , th at a n y t h i n g b e l o w that, as lo n g as 13 t h e y are not i r r i t a t e d th ey are okay, t h a t ' s w h a t y o u r T L V level 14 m e a n s , isn' t that right, sir? IS A Yes, sir. '- 1 16 Q Now, Do ct or , w h a t that m e a n s is that one can be e x p o s e d 17 to c h e m i c a l s in d o s e s t h a t ' s not h i g h e n o u g h to c a u s e a c t u a l 18 o b s e r v a b l e I r r i t a t i o n in the eyes; ears, nose, or throat, and. 19 you w i l l d i s r e g a r d it, y o u w i l l say for d i o x i n or a c h e m i c a l * ' J 20 c o n t i a n l n g d i o x i n that it's safe to w o r k in t h o s e c h e m i c a l s as 21 lo ng as .i t do e s n ' t , as lo ng as t h e r e ar not some o v e r t p h y s i c a l 22 m a n i f e s t a t i o n s of i r r i t a t i o n , t h a t ' s w h a t you a r e saying, isn't 23 that co r r e c t , Dr. R o us h? 24 A No, sir. \ ' t ' / . - v ,, ,' r f' '1 <V ; -r } ' ! ,1-''.'v.'>? ^i"' __V ^AA/. sV -j >;.> V, ' ' If, f' , V " "V , , i ' 1- f'J. ^.VI. iJ`V-.V/. ' - 1 . *!-,< \---. ''."* . ' . j.'4fLi '- ' ., H , -,,( 71 1 - Q - Well,; thn,t:';w h ^ t ,'at/'y o u " s a v i n g if y o u are not s a y i n g - ; .. ; ' % V O i & X ^ "2 'th at ? r - ' ' .L ..v; 1/* r ` wrf A - ." ' ` '*- ,` - ' ^ - v A r- . '1 S' T A A/' A ". . '* $ * T " J-'J ^ ",V ' . 3 , A We a r e 1saying: th at the; f i r s t V t h i n g th at w i l l h a p p e n 'to a 4 , man with exposure in the chlorophenol/unit will be irritation' of ' 5 ; his eyes'-nose, m o u t h or -t h r o a t or, le ss l i k e l y of his' skin. : 6 Q ,Do ct or , are y q ru - - ; / ;> '- A 7 /. A ' That: Vs,, the t h i n g - t h a t w i l l , ,t h a t 1s. the. f irst, .thing that `8- - ,yu-will see, and we have, to p r o t e c t t h e m f r o m rt h a t . 9 \ Q J Do ct or , are y o u s a y i n g .that any e x p o s u r e t h a t <he has io " L - -t 1 , , * v* -i * j to t h e s e c h e m i c a l s will- c a u s e that, i r r i t a t i o n ? , - M A No,, sir, at a' c e r t a i n - l e v e l it -wlllT" A A " ' \ 12 . Q - T h a t *& w h a t .you^ are ,s a y i n g ,' D o c t o r ? A- n A r Yes, /sir. . : | ' . .. ; 1" ,, 14 , Q ' Now, - y ou1re not. s a y i n g th at no e x p o s u r e , y o u can h a v e an 15 r e x p o s u r e and always,.get..fi r r i t a t i o n , "`it has to b e a , c e r t a i n dose, ' u^ # *' l r lr v "p ;-?! k*''* . (f ^ r if ' , , 1 * ,- r - 7 16 d o e s n ' t it? J ` 1 v' "/,, > , '. - \ J, " - . 17 A ;Yes;- siri '* - ,i - 4- v, J "- > r .' , *i , : * , -r F ,, 18 ' T Q 1 And" what, y o u - a r e 's a y i n g y it'is sa fe tto w o r k with, th os e ' 1.9'\ chemicals- that ,contain; di o x i n , so l o n g as y o u don' t h a v e an . 20 , i r r i t a t e d e f f e c t u p o n y o u r ears,. eyes, no se , o f t h r o a t or l u n g s t .21 J that's w h a t yo u are. sa yi ng ? ' rn * V; ` BAVONNC. N.J. 07002 22 A Yes.p'Sfr. - . " ' ' , 7- e - '*s, \ l - . i' ' ' * ' f 1j i i - / v , r4 S 1 ' ` '- m;- f' ^ .j* ' ^; j- , 'r i 'f ^ 23 Q D o c t o r , do y o u c o n c e i v e / i n your, wildest./imagination. that \ kr *" `* :4. " ' _ - -v"% fJ* p ^ ** 24 that l e v e l p r o t e c t s y o u r w o r k e r s f r o m dioxin?. Y'*' 1 ' 1'-i ti i, , '-;A ;. ii..-1, . ' Jr* -i-V. ' Y / Y ' Y p Y* Y vY ; Y "... 72 ; Y V- Y ;'-k - - . . *-r Y - >v. fv Y Y -Y V Y Y Y r . . ... ;Y r \ , ^ y r? YYY >' Y 1''/Y Y Y Y Y '- Y Y -y -/ " - .r'' ''. . - ; Y Y ; Y tY Y ' i Y Y Y Y Y - ^ Y / Y -rtY > /Y Y:; ' Y* Yes', 'sir'. ' ,/ c j m` w : / Y ;-, ^ 'VkY ... Y ; r' *.. r ' 'i . i k - --, ' -Y '1 * 2\\ //'-' Y _'v 1. ! . - 'h v ) Y k-j i:)^1 ^ Y i i V ^ ,,'v' ' Y ^ * n" Y '-Qn K rD'oticn'tftot.rhr,-.^itthieirperp*ii4saYa w h o l e V i l l a g e in -T i m e s ;Beach., t h e y /. , 3 ; d i d n 't e v e n .know t h e y w e r e l i v i n g *ih d i o x i n u n t i l 1t h e y had' a J; 4 ' .f!/l*ood"*,J an'd - a om*,ebot*d'y ' A" `J . r> .teAa tYed ..th*Ye"*wateir >.that wYa*'s, 1 1 1 .. L' j * 1 k l __ * t Jc'io tx m _ in r g' r> f -V ro r m t T im - e s J ' f -Beach, they had no idea that ;it was tlvere..^- ' ' ... ^ i 1 - vr-.r - t Y ' ' % .. 6 ; Y ' A `% Yes, -sir.- . '. '<'.> \ - ' 1 Y. rY Y' 'Y :'<- iY 'r"' . i 1 , 'r` "'j ~'. ,r - 1' * .-r'r'r` Y * - Y . , ," .Y ,* r/ .Q- T h e y didn* t :get ,t h e i r .eyes, . e a r s a n d J n o s e i r r i t a t e d , ' 8 ,, did ,t h e y s i t ? - N o w , the;;w h p l e c o m m u n i t y has' b e e n b o u g h t `out, -9 / ;hecause those; 1 eve 1 s are t o x i c .1eve 1 sVv according to t.hej EPA thr ^ 10. bought it r.but'> `Y ;J '.'Y^Y./Y , Y Y Y :''v -f ,VY . Y Y 1 `Y :>1 , n; yr ": _ '' Ypt>* \ r ^ i ^, . : MR* 'HEINEMAN: tObjection, y o u r Honor, 'the ,'.testimony -li Y about-TliVaii.AndYirritationi had to do with chrorophenol levels. ' ' ", ' Y.; ^ - Y ' :-' 'Y:- /-*', . "" ^ ^ ' 13- - r- MR , :CAKR; Indeed i-t"J did,./ . \ - -Y Y ` 14 ; ' ^THE/COURT:, . Objection is overruled;. ` ,r , 'V; r. , , ' Y ' '^'Y / " Y 'VV.- -I. r ' j , . - - , L\ v- ,' .- ' - 15 ' Y ` Q Now, R e c t o r , - y o u can Lhave exposure to d ioxin and: n e v e r Y 16 h aitvj,e tdhe fKa init e s t> id y e a ' tYhYa t^.y'o'u* rer-y bYe\i'nVgY exp o siejdr 1.to,",th''a.t^ Jd-ioxiYn "i f* ^ ^ Y " p,. r 1 ; ' ( j ^ ^ f 1?I -17 - at very toxic levels? ' /T` -< ` 1 -, Y ,r,`Y * - * 4 '* '- ' , ' 1-' - % ta `r ; 'J Y,- *fclY^^ *^ '' ** C \ ', ,n' - ,-., v ' -^ - --.; 'Yr i_W f\ i. %k 18 Y , Y .A- No, sir. . . '' V Y %i* / ' 19 Y;., Q That 's -not correct?/ .'. ./ Y :., Y - ' Y ;-J , ,J / -20 / .. 'A No , :sir; Y' i.v ` r r' ' ` ' ^ ' ' L . -i^ v/. * - *, - t k,' - - ^ ;> . r' * , , L .. L , . 21 ; Q D o c t o r , " t h e n y o u 're. d i s a g r e e i n g -b e c a u s e by your definiti on '; - 'y '..-v ''' ^ Vv.. ,V' * ' * 122' `, there .is.no to xi c -.level u n t i l y o u get chloraciie, ^that 's w h a t 23 y o u ',re"s a y i n g and t h a t 's/th e r e a s o n y o u 're s a y i n g ;nb, 'sir, i s n 't 24 that ri gh t, rsir? J .'./; : - ' ," v PENGAD CO., BAYONNE, N.J * , it-, . . v - f ` ' 1 1 , ',.J !' V ' r e Vv .. % x- r. *7- < i V%s A`1'v-`;; ^,V\"V-ifiv-'-^] '*>,,. `ikr-: r ^ A - ` ^ V * 73 1 A No, sir ,).the d o s e |that,- '.they; g.et f r o m w o r k i n g t h at c h i e f o p b e n q l un it -of. e x p o s u r e to d i o x i n -is `so s m a l l -- , y- > --- VQ - Exctise me;, D o c t o r . ^ G o u l d y o u a n s w e r th e q u e s t i o n t h at ` 4 I a m a s k i n g y o u now, please.,, sif? ' ,r : r 5 ' J * I *'A I tho"urg,jh*t- I was. r < Would *' * ' y o u"7 r e p eHait^ hthe'1 q u e s t i o n ? 6' Q- ,W o u l d y o u .read the q u e s t i o n to him, p l e a s e ? 7 ' (Previous, question.1, " D o c t o r , t h e n y o u 1re 1 - ,8 d i s a g r e e i n g .because b y .your, definition, there- - " !`p 1n r ";i* - ` t 1 J/ ,. ? is no. toxic level until you get chloracne, that's 10- ^ ' what you're' saying and that's the. re as on you'.re. 11 : \ l a y i n g no," sir/, is n' t t h a t ; ri gh t, sir?" was r e a d ' 12 ,, r b y - t h e r e p o r t e r .) a "`v a /V; ; ;v.' v 13 A ' The answer is'no, sir. - J '- 1 14 Q T h e n ,t h e r e is a? l e v e l of toxicity, that you' can h a v e f r o m 15 e x p o s u r e a n d "not; s h o w c h l o r a c n e d o y o u agree, 'with .'that, sir?' 16 ," -.A a No; 'sir/,. 1 '*Y ^ .'V . ; *-. . \ ; > `: 17 :: Q Doctor'--again''I'm a t ' a l o s s / Is- it not y o u r -position 18 , t h a t if there; is not e n o u g h t h e r e to c a u s e c h l o r a c n e , it 's r *- 19 J n o t h i n g ,'yo.u- n e e d -to w o r r y - a b o u t ,'if1 i t ' d o e s n V t c a u s e h i o r a c n e , 20 : 21 . f o r g e t a b o u t It; -d o n ' t w o r r y ab ou t Ti t . i s n ' t that w h a t r y o u said; i * r^ 1 1 ~ * 't~ * - Jr * r, J " t` A % L" j isn' t that lyout. p o s i t i o n h e r e ,and' by' y o u - I m e a n .not- j u s t . y o u p 22 p e r s o n a l l y but M o n s a n t o ' s p o s i t i o n ? 7 :, 23 24 - A, No, sir:. ` ' ` r* > ' * J x - _ t ' K . ' 'r ri Q Well, then, do y o u rh a v e .a p o s i t i o n that t h e r e ..can be ` ? & { 1 e x p o s u r e to' d i o x i at ;I eye Is no t sufficient, to cause- c h l o r c n e L-2. b u t ,ati l e v e l s th at cn b e ' i n j u r i o u s to the human;'being7 V'3' 4L 'No,; sir.- r ' <1L. "t (" f ' -' * \ ' h . . . ' V , f t , ,J , Q Y o u .don't magree-, w i t h t h a t N e i t h e r ? . "v . > . . P i! ;{w j * * v * V % '*.* ; / \ j ' h- ;/: - . v/ .5/ N o , ; sir-. a . ; ir- , . n ?. : - -6 \ , ,- -j,,* Q L. - D o c t'o r - : f-*fd7~-o *--Tyou-'l':81.\^eve J'-a ,c"e.r.`'tL-j't,n*T1..^l/'1u,'coL,,'ns;,l-ate,nc-riy;f*r.'.b et ', w e en . -7' ' a n s w e r s there, sir? .8 ` - - A .,,N o ,, s i.r .i: i $ 1-'1'.^-Jv /V -; -'' ? V ' ^ . . y o u^r -V 9 "t 1P . Q: T h e y are p e r f e c t l y c o n s i s t e n t ? ' % J^ K. * J " A '' A Yes,, sir. ;/ . ` -\ - *' ` _ J /.'y r' *' ,, , rl - 11 Q . `A l l - r i g h t . A n d Doctor., th dioxin, leyel.;that y o u h a v e '1 12 set for e x p o s u r e 'to y o u r p e o p l e in y o u r K r u m m r i c h p l a n t h a s to ,13 do w i t h w h a t , c h l o r a c n e , i r r i t a t i o n o f ' t h e .eyes,, r, no se , o r y 14' t h r o a t o r `w h a t , s i r ? 1 -v. a ri "il- *m o looto t 'n `3 N n o a v o 15 A ,-No, sir.'. We've-.got it also- as r e l a t e d to ,t h ' m a g n i t u d e r 1^ . 'J i * *. - <r Jr '* ' " r L t fc "\i I i J 'r ^ ^ - ' 4* ' .. 16 of the d l o x i h t h a t ' s g o i n g to be in the w o r k e n v i r o n m e n t If w , .17' k e e p the Jchlbtopheno'i c o n c e n t r a t i o n b e l o w the TLV. 18 ; Q D o c t o r , do y o u h a v e a le ve l ;for d i o x i n .exposure, a L V r. 19 l e v e l ? J -* t\ -a . . v v ,r ; jr , : 20 21. '.A ` Yea,' sir, J . * . ^ J\ -. r ' L -i t* ", , Q ' An d"what is the level? V -,, ^ ( ' 1" How do you ^. Hr ^, v. mesVr^ it? rj ` ,22 A f w o u l d be related-, s o m e h o w r e l a t e d t o 100 p a r t s p e r . 23 million.' -1,'. * - 24 . Q S o m e h o w r e l a t e d to?- \ 1- - /; .75 1 -1 . Yes v B r V '-rX*. " y 1 'Q ,, - HVo v`">'*c.`aX\n ''sy;Ho;u-j' 'i'ra;vre/-f;-ia -l I` eve ,U l .y X to it, sir.? '*.i . 'J ' \ ; v' V ' ;**;'*j. * ,l/sl 'f a^n,,i:Ad*.s/Va;*y,,.-.fi,1t i,e e om : eh ?.. . o 'w ;r1e-l a1t< e d ' A . \ ^ iJ . - \ ' 'r -> . X~' ` --- 4 .A X. d o h' \ t ^i /h a v eu, the \ data y--- <-'here,V, ;b Jj u t.';_trhe l e v e l sr w e f:o un d 5: - wreerree;;so smmaallll iIn t thheec hcThoT rropphheeh o ll uuniitt -tthheerre -w a s no prr<o b le m. ' 6' ,7 c v Q D o c t o r i what^X" am-^asking ^y o n is -what'-is; the l e ve l? ' v ' . r; o >r \ (;?/ r ;V,? : ; -' , : A r1 X d o n 't r e m e m b e r 1 it, but' it w a s so s m a l l it wa s 8 * infinitesimal compared to-- . v. J ^ JV* ' . 9 Q Doctor, isn't, it a f a c t that y o u r.have u s e d and c.ontihue 10 to u s e .'the^presence, o r ,the .a b s e n c e of c h l o r a c n e as a m e a s u r i n g device for .dioxin levels? - ` ' -;v : 12 ' .A - Yes,v s;ir. . ` ` / J- '-. ' 13 ..Q r Y e s . ' A n d y o u u s e . t h a t m e a s u r i n g d e v i c e b y d e t e r m i n i n g 14 w h e t h e r or not a p e r s o n ha s c h l d r a c n e , d o n ' t yoii, sir? 15 ' . A - That' a. p a r t of v it 1 . v i? o Q J W e l l , - w h a t ' s 't h e ; o t h e r .part of .it? ' S. - A The fa c t `.that w e did 'c o m p a r e o r / c o n s i d e r e d the c o n c e n 18 t r a t i o n of the d i o x i n " p r e s e n t in the chlorophehols.v end t h e y re /- - 1 F' * . ^ * f I , j1' V i *. i 19 so lo w in p a r t s per: m i l l i o n b e c a u s e of; ,the l o w v o l a t i l i t y of the ; 20 1 chloropheno8,'.r h e r e =c o u l d n 't ^be/hardly' a n y dioxin^?; r . / ; : 2i- ; v Q Do c t o r , y o u ' r e n o t - a n s w e r i n g - t h e ^ q u e s t i o n _rthat I, am 22" f 23* directing. C h lo ra cn eV you said, is the m e a s u r i n g .device that ; - 1 -, - -- t -". r you u s e to d e t e r m i n e w h e t h e r - o r n o t , o n e is. e x p o s e d to too m u c h %# _ K m 1. . 'i 24 di ox in , isn't, that correct,, sir? ; 1 . i i- "-* *r*.* '' ^ ,, *-'V'r--. . , ' , i.m* * ' ,--4.4ri. t" *> f -1 k 76 n - J / \ -> - (r v ^ ,* } ''* ' . *'*A . T h a t -;s o n e ,m e a s u r e / ' IV" 1 ; ^ - Vr ' j' J; ' ' j' ' V `t ',.* '.r ~ 'J*f^i' L'- ' " \ ^-V? . .3 - 1 f*: 'A r VJhat is ,the ;other ^m ea su re ? ' > rv'/ ' ' '1 jJ^,' vV1 . ' ^'''V^M,1^*j^' The measur 1V^A'!l./-tf` ^`*r^i*'j^\1-L1i1"VLiF'fit,=.?J ed concentr ,4*^-._`` ation .I''ao'"yr.fJ+jri1>/t\^!*hJ*e"r1^^d i o r'/f*rv xin 'v1 ^!1** based r-- .'* on the . L-. -- ,,C"4 \ c o n c e n t r a t i o n *o f " tiie dioxin, in jthe .c h l o r o p h e n o i . , T ;'`7 w -;-s m ^" ' 5 V. Q' -- Well', w h a t ; i s that level, D o c t o r ? 'v ; - '`, T l f T\ -'m i` fj i r' l ` ; ' 6, -./ A . . I d o n 11, h a v e ;Itvhe^e','but t h e ^ l e v e l w a s so l o w :we A i d n / t c o n s i d e r it^ ha z a r d . : ' . J ' : < ^ ' ' . w ... -- ;. 'V- r > y 8 ;q Do ct or , w h a t y o u ,are s a y i n g is y o u didnVt- e s t a b l i s h a. ?, l e v e l for d i o x i n o t h e r than, do es aJ person- h a v e chlorache.." 10 11 ; -, ,A No., sir.. , We c o n s i d e r e d both' a s p e c t s . /' -" ' ^ - - '" ^ y **L ^ 'r ' r ' ` "ra , Q, : I ' k n o w : y o u c o h s l d e r e d . i t , Do c t o r , b u t " I 'm a s k i n g ab ou t 12 / w h a t you ^used u s 'a d m e a s u r i n g d e v i c e for d i o x i n / e x p o s u r e . ^ 13 A .We u s e d the c h l o r o p h e n o l as a m a r k e r for determining' the 14 d i o x i n in '.the air. 1 .. i,` '.^ f '15{ . 9 .. Y o u 'us.ed the. chlorohheriol-- ' r*.' t* 1 / j ;" l,r, , **!j'. 1^,'1 `j\.- 1 'J 16 A; ''Yes, a i r . "J '{"\ K -r '- . ^ . . j.< ; -v '' -' f/*- ^-.`' - . I* ' -4 -- , Ji '17 * Q ;- - t o vd e t e r m i n e w h e t h e r -or not t h e ,d i o x i n .is in the air . 18 `A ` ,,r -A n d vthe magnitude .of _w hFa t .w i l l, be- in t-h/eyf air. f{ " \ ;Q ^ And>'if it d o e s n 't jcaiiae c h l o r a c n e and i f ' i t d o e s n 't caus ' 2 0 / I r r i t a t i o h - o f 'the eyes, ears, nose, and t h r o a t , .then_it *s okay ? \ 'I *' V -A' - No, sir." ' 1% , r j, r -* 1' - / ! ' 1' r~' *' ^ 1 r yr J ?2 ' Q - Now, Doctor, w h a t 'o t h e r m e t h o d `do y o u de te rm in e/ whe.ther i23. it's o k a y ? Y o u h a v e the T L V for the c h l o r i n a t e d ,p h e n o l s is \ . 24 w h e t h e r or not it c a u s e s i r r i t a t i o n , a n d t h a t 1s .the>/'ohly T L V you PENG AD CO. * `i *- r -t ^. 41 - v L i* - - 1 .^ ' 77 '*V' t 1 J HflVP `r " * * < \*i r- C-V .fk. r 'v, 1 U t t V *3 V Jj-' h-/ k t, i f . ' , I V ` 1' 'r ' *,v i i - - 4 >.>'* r 1 t 2 A - * A n d w e ^ d i d n ':t 'n e e d one for, d i o x i n v ' -jJ' 3' Q And youf- T L V ' f o r d i o x i n is' c o n n e c t e d w i t h y o u r chlorine' i,;s i\y : \ ;? ; \ ' *- " 4 p hhaetnionll'so aann<d1 iJ.Z>n'c.Mhlvnorrr<aa'c/'nn<eo, 4ias i4t 'r hot, soii.-r>?9'r`- `` 1.- v , , ` -' ' 5 V- A ' N o t -chlbra'cne.r \:U 'v U f.'C / ri 6 . . :Q T h e n it is .connected o n l y w i t h y o u r T L V for .the c h l o r i n a t e d 7 phenols? y-; 8 ; - A Yes,,' s i r ... * r _ 1-1 t F .' - %\-r, 9 Q T h e n w h a t I .said ,to s t a r t w i t h . D o c t o r , if i t 's-not 10 g o i n g to caus e an irritatioh^of'yotir eyes-, 1ears., n o s e , or th roat 11j it i s - o k a y then,- i s n ' i t , ,sir?. / ** 12 A ... No., -.sir;. ,; / - k \` `" r v r * r A.'.l . "'j ` `1 - ` J 'r' j '' j ` - JV rk' 13 Q Well, Do c t o r , w h a t o t h e r t e s t i n g d e v i c e ;do y o u h a v e ? 14 W h a t o't.her^-TLV f';r a t h e r - V s t r i k e that. W h a t o t h e r T L V do y o u h a ve 15 e x c e p t i r r i t a t i o n in the ca se of y o u r c h l o r i n a t e d p h n o l s ? ; . 16*' A If we k n o w t h a t 1the--^ \ fcV '17 ' Q r - E x c u s e me, D o c t o r , th at .i s n !t w h a t I a s k e d you. I 'm... 18 a s k i n g y o u vs p e c i f i c a l l y . w h a t is y o u r T L V for . c h l o r i n a t e d .p h e n o l s? -9. -v.1^ 'V'1 | -j 1 -_ - -1 " * 1 j 'J * 'j -, ,, ^ ' m\ \ 19 . ;1 A * I t h i n k i t ^ thre e milligranie per c u b i c m e t e r . ^ 20; . _'.Q " And. t h a t ' s - - ^ , Vx-" r- . , 21. ';.A But I ' m not sure. . ' . J. . -* r-,. - J; '1 f ' '- - * * ** \ ,. ' " ' ' h - J '-T" ( 22 Q ' A n d that 's 'established b y w h a t y o u de'termine wh e t h e r " or 23 not it w i l l caus e i r r i t a t i o n ? .v- ' r; ; 24 A Yes, sir.' -. .-. , j: ;' - . . PCNGADl Co;* .SAYONftE, 'N..N 07002 FORM IL 24 0 i-. j1- 78 l. rr -- fi ^ Y : v;-;> : - * \ * :' ' *'_**-'- T-1f-*r': -;r V '^ -f>!cv *^ ;\i*-t'*'X-, *V ^Sf->^,_*J^,r h'-N -.- 'y;,,* 1 Q S o i t Tis d'ir c tly c o n n e c te d Y w i t h w h e t he r `I?t does., or 2 . , does not/.cause. Irrigation ?' ........ ; - r'"'* . ,' 1 V-r--Cj.?-1/r1^.-,/V^'`jV./.*.J'V .. .- -,n\ - '3 ^ A 'Ho , .'sir ; ' . .* Y '-'; `v.j` .'Y] ; 'y \ ''V %";, ; ' . V t; 4 Q Well , what'/is -It; c o n n e c t e d -t:ot * j 5 * a It is .b a s e d o n 1th a m o u n t s of chlorophenol.. i n .the air. . '; 6 Q Do ct or , .the a m o u n t of chlorinated, phenol, in the. a i r , is . 7" - that, yb u--say it 's :too m u c h w h en i t c a iise s I r`r itt ion? . ;" ' ' .'.J.. ' ,,L; - v .- ' , .'_ : 8; - A ' No-t to 'measure-v.i't-,. "s . -J "* ' , ... ", ' ' . 9 . :Q I ' m , n o t .t a l k i n g a b o u t m e a s u r e m e n t . Y o u 've t e s t i f i e d .1 0 u n d e r o a t h in fr on t of this'-jr, S n d ' t h t ' s the r e a s o n I ' m goip|g'' u ' ` 11. ^ d o w n this p a t h ^ i s that y,ou l e s t ifi e d h e r e un de r. Mr. H e i n e m a n ' s - 12 qu es ti on in g, that. th l t V ^ l e v e l for chlorinated, p h e n o l s is the. 13 * .Irritation levei. . . 14 A' T h a t ' s the basis, for the TLV.. ; . Y J- -- . 15 t' 16^ , :' Q l "1 i .V .A . Th at Vs the ba.s.ls^for your. TLV? ^ '" r . I1 - ^ .J r -* ' ,, ,. r Yes . `_ ^ r ` ` r m1 ^ J, r v * -f * ft . ", 17- ' - Q- A n d 'what; that means' i s ' i f It i r r i t a t e s you, it is too 18 m u c h ^ i f it Jdoesn* t ;I r r i t a t e you, it is not too much , isn' t V. . VI? > that 'c o r t e c t ,'sir? - r -,J ' `r 20 , L`;J'-'. -A. ' ,'21->' Q It means that we 'r e b e i o w that -- '` '''> `.- 1 ^ j ',,<' .'S' ' ` 1 V"- '-\j'-rfvr;1.. . V ' L j V 1. Excuse me Doctor, please answer my question.' V, * 22 MR. H E I N E M A N : O b j e c t i o n , y o u r Ho no r, the m a n - w a s t r yi ng 23 to t e l l h i m wh at he m e a n t . J '"' v -24 THE COURT: O b j e c t i o n is o v e r r u l e d . ,T h a t J.:w a s -a. c l e a r .y RENGAD CO,. BAYONNE. N.J. 07002 ' ' . .- ; ' -_ 'V ; , - ", ' "--1 S.- ..fcJ\" rJT", 1- l*'"V. Hr ";'"',"rJ , . .--J.!'-J* J.,,- 4..,.1l*IJr-.--,>,>^J'*,i * v*J*.T-",' j(..J-*''''-S'V' It;t.<; rfj?' '1 * ** '" /- a ;'L r ^ V i v_., i U - j >v"? , ,J L; < , u F -- ,, 1'r i*'l j"; ,V __ i or no q u e s t i o n -and ;he w a s 7 not/ariswering..11 a s ' such, it was not - -^ X*' V l N S > " * %- i. r e s p o n s i v e , - h e w a s 7p r o p e r l y I n t e r r u p t e d . ^ r- * '; 3 L '-A 'T*h'eJ an sw'er j;i 4s1 *ri'or;1,*K'- ;Ji. 'C; -1 i ***v'ft'L - ^. f/ '' r ^ r 'f 4 .5 .Q A The an sw er is no?\ ,,i' ' l Y e s , -'Sir.. /''V 6 .' Q ` And, w h a t y o u t e s t i f ied w h e n Mr ;' H e i n e m a n ,',if I u n d e r s t o o 7 V y o u to say that the T L V -lev el f o r c h 1 o r i n a t ed ph e h o l s v a s ->w h e th e r8 it d o es .or does not c a u s e .'irritation, t h e n 1 m i s u n d e r s t o o d you? 1 * '1 "j , > r ,p ,, s. 9 A Yes, sir. r P^/ -Jr* r,,v f ' J .*J . %J *J '.* . ^ -L'J * ' ` ^ - , 10 i Q A n d .what h a s I r r i t a t i o n got t o do w i t h i t / then? . 1 : , 'V r ' A ' Xr r 1 tat ion* is a b a sis for set t i n g .'the s t and a rd . ' `- PENGAD CO;,-BAVONNE, NJ. 07001 -' Q Do ct or , isn* t that w h a t .1 am a s k i n g you?, ^ tJt J . i 'j ` f - L,, \ r r 13 v A '' - N o v sir.' ^ '* '- \ / 1/ V *" ; A ' 14 J ? Y o u d e t e r m i n e d h o w m u c h c h l o r i n a t e d p h e n o l it w o u l d take 715, , to 'cause.^irritation., d i d n V . t y o u , sir? ' " '* 16 - / '" A *Y , 17 . Q. Y e s , .sir';. v . + \ _r1 71^_ And ^that! s the amount, that ,* / yourhave V - `f ^ r- " set? ; ~ ' 'H . , ' 1r J 1` 8 / - - A Y e s , ,sir. l 1 'jr ^ o<n',,. !9 :Q ! It is-that, amount- t h a t w i l l caus- i r r i t a t i o n ? ^ ' .T 1v < .A . Ye s, sir. ' -A, - / ' i . - ; ' -"I V -*<! yS r * . J. 21 Q T h a t is y o u r . T L V for c h l o r i n a t e d . p h n o l s ? ; J -- 22 'y -23 24 Lj F A' Yes, sir; yes', sir. , .r , ,'q Si r ? ' 7' ' A- Yes, sir. -L ^ ' ^ j -y - ' jV1 "vr j- r , ^ rf4 ^ F< *' " ** * !^ J" '1 "^ , -> H .r-. '*/ " 1 * " ^ * * l o J-( '*1 - ; V .  Vvi-, iY v 1-` : / J j f t '- . '1Y K'` i; ,, '' ,5'I*il ;^l;r --n>. .Mt f ,,i^ ': - -<- >? v- 80 . - n . - 1 / * 'f ; tJ r j ...* (\ f ; ' (1 (- " . - ` '* -i-,t ji f.r"' ' ' i"" v , V - _ jk ; Y /;-siY/:;: ,0'..j ,u, tJ '1 -*J . i - ' - v r -, 1 ; > 1 1r . Q A n d :a n y tfing l e s s . t h a n " that *Amount- i a okay, .anythIn g - ^, 2 ' .le s e rth an V\ an a m o u n t ~<suff le lent to "cause / Y / Y Y Y VY V- V-V-i. Y V * Irritt I o n i e ; k y , 3 ' isn' t it, sir?'-' > 5. ' r 'Y ' `/ Y / j ; 4: s--; -r A Yes-, sir. * ,. - Y \ Y Y -, - \ ' ' Q All" .-right. Now, ^ D o c t o r , - w i t h i n that,--amount, the i r r i t t Ion -6 . is*'caused by the c a u s t i c s u b s t a n c e s In the c h l o r i n a t e d phenols,, 7 -isnijt' it, sir? " Y Y'V' r r r\ Y* 'V* *`V . ,L 8 Y V A Yes ,, sir ; . / - t- - ^ / ;!/ 1 Y ;^ Y 9 ' /Q It is not c a u s e d .by the, d i d x i n V ie.it, sir? 10 v, Q D i o x i n d b s n 11 do; t h o s e things, d i o x i n if it is th er e 11 s u f f i c i e n t l y will, c a u s e c h l o r a c n e ; ir v , j r* A , Yes,,-sir. - ` i-j ^ * ' , Y'\-L-1 4 -` ; _Y" . - ' 13 ! Q So the' o n l y ov er t 'sign ryou. h a v e - I s w h e t h e r or not '/ _ Y ' ` -, - j/ - ` ;_ j \ T . 1' J ',, 1, .^ * 14 ; c h l o r a c n e is th er e f o r . d i o x i n j b e c a u s e y o u c a n ' h a v e a lot of r 1 ` ` " - '"-V is dioxin., Y o u c a n h a v e h u n d r e d s and- h u n d r e d s parts' p e r .billion J ^ 1 ^ 'Y . ^*1r .Y; ^ d 16 of d i o x in in va `c h l o r inat e d p h e n o 1 a n d - n e v e r r e a c h the i r r i t t ion pe ng j l .+c o .. b y o n n e ; n .jl, o y oo " . f o r m il 2< b 17- l e v e l if y o u d o n ' t .let e n o u g h out to c a u s e i r r i t a t i o n f r o m the 1 ~y jy 18 ;'' ph e n o l s , is nV t t h a t :right,^sir? . J 19 .A ' If they are not.: re l a t e d . ` ` 2 ' i i 9 ,. .Well1., D o c t o r , t h e y . a r e not r e l a t e d , y o u - v e t e s t i f i e d Y , ' 21 ' t h e y / a r e n o t r e l a t e d , yo u ;can .h av e/ 2 0 0 p a r t s p e r b i l l i o n of *- 22 ' d i o x i n i n 'your, c h l o r i n a t e d p h e n o l s , and the c h l o r i n a t e d 'p h e n o l - Y* "t j, j. r ^ ' , - ' ' v , 23': r e l e a s e d w i l l not b e s u f f i c i e n t to c a u s e y o u I r r i t a t i p n , w o n ' t 24 It, sir? . *. Y, - L * -. " ` / "**'*r r4 ' 1 , -' ^ \ ' / y ` ' ,J r`' :jy. -, y, v> y/;. - i/.y? ,^ :, 1 A' 1 Yesy^ -sir y. ! j. ; B . , y-' ; \ . - y . - , - .V V V - > H / `i T ' ,, ...7- ' - 2 v ' ; _ Q ; . You c a f have i n that^ amount, of ch lorinatedphenol- that*s . ,3.'. r e l e a s e d , y o u can ,h v e f ive p a r t s per b i l l i o n or fi ve m i l l i o n V ,J . , , r - ;r ;* v ;? _* ^ " ,, f . * : - ` " - " r -T 4 p a r t s per b i l l i o n in that saine c h l o r i n a t e d ph e n o l * c a n ' t . y o u , 5 sir?'.- . v - y ; ' . ' ;r . . . ^ * . .6 , *t 'l ` " . No", '-sir . ' *1 k. < 'r ' t |i 1j ** '. r -i **' *_'*.^>< Q. ' Y o u c a n ' t ? V' Tu" 1 U* */L . J t^ r J . /_ ' r- v '. ' 1 ' ** y ,f , "\ _k , j. ' `8 1 ' - .A^/^No, `sir-., . v` '' > .''l ; , ^ j 9; Q- W h y no t? ' V1. -l ' ,v' ' ' r.r ' . , , ' -J ^ 10 ` ^ '* - k. - ' y,,-. " V '-- / .'A j B e c a u s e t h a t fisri't'the l e v e l s 1;th at are found.; - l 11 i Q Now, D o c t o r , i ' m / n p t t a l k i n g a b o u t -.what y o u *'sa y y o u ,r \ 7n * 13 J f o u n d or n o t r found. W e ' y e got. the l -_ - _' l' " -* . "' ' h. 1 -* * " ;/ . y o u h y p o t h e t i c a l l y as a' s c i e n t i s t , e x h i b i t s , her.e' j !ni g i v i n g r r *" j 1 "1 '` *; y o u k n o w v that' One- b a t c h of 1 14 c h l o r i n a t e d p h e n o l s can.contain' h i g h L l e v e l s o f : d i o x i n a n d anothei ` "i - ; y,r ' v . ; *r .. . is b a t c h c a n ^.pntan v e r y , l o w l e v e l s of d i o x i n , y o u k n o w t h a t ', - 16 ' ' d o n ' t ' y o u , Dr. R o u s h ? 1 / . v- r' ^ ' 17 " 1 '18 , \" pr , ' 11 ' , 1' f L^ -> ^ ' ' 1 * " L . ` *\K ' A' .No, -sir. : '` - * - , -. * ir . ' ,. , ^ - S' ^ V" ^ - *h ^ . 1' k , 1' ' 'f L * - t '^ T, - ' - Q D r . - R o u s h , ; h a v e you- c o m p l e t e l y ig no re d t h e - p l a i n t i f fJ s ' 19 e x h i b i t s i n :- this ;c a e e a n d t h e r e p o r t s yof y o u r o w n J s c i e n t i s t s ' :.L 2(t * s p e c if i c ally. -130 1 A , h ave .you ,coinp 1 e t e ly ti gno r ed it, ' in ; y o u r 21 - /answer,, s i r ? ' ' ?/ . '/ , _ . \ '' . - 7v 22 A No,_ sirv -^ - y - 1' ^ 23 Q Y o u s e e . h i g h l e v e l s of t t r a s in so me b a t c h e s a n d l o w 24 levels in others, d o n ' t you, sir? -1 PENGAD CO.., BAYONNE, N.J. 07002 -, ' / - *' , y' r.\ y :/ , , ' ^ T* -i' j, i'ir-/iy'^-'ry-,'-* v',sViw1 y..,- ;Vi-1-/ >.Vn i,'",.*l 'sF ,,'w *V"h"`' f^ .- - " >,-'.v. * ' "` ** t` `v ' "f J . - . -i/':. ?A \-'V.<i t^'Oi yi ,*JV ^' > i 'i-.i 'tr.< ." 'v . . . . 1" /-" ' ./ T h e o n l y o n e / I .see t h a t 's h i g h is the 2700 pair.ts per'., ~ T / v *UA ,.3 b i l i ion f /^' t 4 ''' `;'1.r f'/'1'';1'4V `v1'' ( /, t \V - 1 - ;^ -JP-L.v : *'i f^ ' '`r`, y .T" - ,,t^ ^ j , J "V,*k T4, j -V. r\ q / .Doctor', y o u s e e / t w o h e r e -w h i c h i s ^ - a n d yoii' see a n o t h e r '4. ,t h a t 'b .g o t 450, < that 450 ^ i.sf.~r2 2 5 *> t i me , s,- h_ i*g*h er , than 2, -- i,sn* t i fc t ,-:v :'5 . s/iprs*?1," 6 :4 / I* ' . ,Yesi sir; h -( ^k- *.r 1 ''r- ` - 1 L _ \t L . ^" pF f' 4J ' 1- 1 , . t- 7- \ / ' Q '.A n d y o u c a n h a v e > v a r y i n g , you. can have; h i g h a m b u n t s in,' 8 ,some batches of chlorinated phenols a n d l o w a m o u n t s in others^. 9 can, y o u not, sir,? r : / . - -' - 1 JO *' '/ A. - I d o n 't c a l l t h o s e ; l e v e l s high..except-for t h e ' 2600. ir : q - ,W ell ,- let `rr 's " .even. vc a l l -!- t h a t , sir ,-y o u -can h a v e ^ '*.'<'- ` J^ ' it 'high 1 ' ' ' . .t`^< .12 . 1i n some .* and rj' , J ' ` ' 'J^ low-in. ot h e r s , .c a n 't. you, sir? ; `rr: f* J '< k' t'j. J ' B " - A' X d o n 't: t h i n k any of t h e m are h i g h e x c e p t . t h a t one 14 value. -15.., , Q * W e l l t h a t .,one Ji s Li n ex is t en ce isn 't -i t V 'Do c 1 6 r ? I t 1 ' 16,/ is there, is it not, sir? . ' '. , 17 , ir` l 'A 11-j 18' /''V LQ If.that number is right. Yes, if that number. i s .r i g h t . I? , of N e b r a s k a r e p o r t e d , sir.- T h a t 's what t h Un 1versit :" - ,20 / But I don't^beiiye; that number,' . ; w ; : q ' Do c t o r , I ? m . n o t a s k i n g you^ to/`b e l i e v e .i t r - 22 A Ye s, sir. ' '--V, ^ ' -r 23 Q It is in e v i d e n c e , it is not y o u r f u n c t i o n ..to .believe or 24 't, d i s b e l i e v e *i1t, .it is the j u r y 's f u n c tti o n t o .d e c i d e \1t`hat`^* -Now,/ y J" a" "*l *.- 1H * . ' 1 L,>,, r * ^ - 'V. ; ' f . /V.y./ '-'i "V-; 'v' /r ' BENGAD .CO,, .BAYONNE,' N.J. 070I 'FOB* IL Z * B s'v > .. '' .L - ," -- . ':.'. s 'i.1', /<: fc~-y ^ i(11 j ... i ;. rk\-t.*V; * -p *.\i1t ftt ,j --`>.J--'i.i,iv ^ ,fl* ' ,l ; r, i L , ^; -. 83 r ' yoti can have' h i g h levels, o f ' d i o x i n in p n e batch, of .chlorinated' r '? p h e n o l a n d ; l o w ih a n o t h e r y c a n !\t you* D.r,. Roush?. 3- ; A In-.that r a n g e . y e s , sir . \ ' j. ; ///'-; , ; 4/ ._Q , And. Do ct pr , y o u k n o w that In y o u r 2, 4 , 5 - T , for i n s t a n c e 5 .5^ . y o u h a d in p a r t s p e r m i l l i o n , D o c t o r ? > 6 ^ A' Y e s , .s i r * ; i''' ./ - /*./ 1 7 / :/ Q " A n d : y o u h a d s ome ',2 4 , 5-T that, had' little, dioxin,' too, -1 8* y o u :k n o w that,- d o n ^ t you;;.sir? , . ,, 1 .9 ' A I don/ t k n o w ^ w h a t we. m e a n by/little.' . , 10 , > ^ Q - W e l l ,, y o u had f i f t y p a r t s ^ p e r m l i i o n in- so me batc he s. // - 1 . r i?h ^ 'v t' i r -y o u had. six .p a r t s >per~ million, in. o t h e r b a t c h e s i n d e e d i t ,Is , n not- li tt le , b u t - t h e y w i d e l y -- r a n g e w i d e l y varied,^.did it not, ^ _ - 'J V r \ ,13 "sir? - : ' '* ' . '-. iV %>f 1 ' 14' A From^eix. t fifty,*-y e s , sir, p a r t s p e r m i l l i o n . . . -15 ` ' -.Q / SIT?- *:: \ ./ ^ ,V \ " J,16; L iJ -A.-. P a r t s p e r vm i l l i o n . `-j V 17/f Q A n d D o c t o r ,.:'the; d o c u m e n t s ln chlorinated. p h e n o l s can 18 - . be low e n o u g h . t h a t i t . w i l l not c a u s e i r r i t a t i o n , w h e r e a s thev 19 c h l o r i n a t e d p h e n o l ' c a n c u s e i r r i t a t i o n , i s n ' t th at c o r r e c t , ; 20 / -sir? , - / ^ ;J r 21 22' -A s Q Yes;;. Air, / .. ' .^ r L}' S '" *" ^` J ^j i' u * * X* A n d the. people- at T i m e s B e a c h ,a n d the p e o p l e a t - S t u r g e o n .23 the p e o p l e any p l a c e where. t h e y haver a .community, that;1s c o n t a m l n ated 24 wi t h d i o x i n , they^ can b e h a v i n g ef f ec.ts -f r o m ;vthat :d i o x i h w i t h o u t i r ' //,:;! ;/ ;5 v y - } r { ! V *V- ; \ ' ' -i'-rv,;f>..>i''''j--t:J.f,V'l-..<j* <{Vv; *.. PENCAD CO*. BAYONNE, N J, : * i* v v = i. ' h a v i n g / i r r i t a t i o n f r o m .'the 'chlorinated -phenol, can t h e y not , 2 L* ,sir? - A -3 . A "No, "sir. ^\ i - , //.,; - -- ` ; , ''v '/ 4*" ' Q .. -You d o n ' t b e l i e v e 't h e y can, sir? \' ^ 5*,' "'A .No, a i r . 1, " ' *' i- / 6' '7-' Q- T h e n ' w h e r e v e r 'they. A r e g o i n g to, h a v e an, ef fect', t r'r J ^ t 'F * / r ,, _/ s% ^ hr V ^ t *i ' are going-to; hve irri ta te d eyes,,.n o s e , and throat?;. they 1' Li r.L /';v 8, A- ' No, sir. - -, ` ^ 9 "r ,Q T h e n w h a t is th c r i t e r i a ? .// ' V - * ' 1 ir i'`k^ * r--r'* -, ,S'1'' v s ? Tr +> , ^ "r 10, . A T h e - c o n c e n t r a t i o n - o f .the d i o x i n i n / t h a t `^ ^r, ' site has "J J j- to be 11 Jr ;*v h i g h e n o u g h *tb; c a u s e an e f f e c t - , /^ ' , -" * 12 Q A n d w h a t is the e f f e c t i t 's got -to c a u s e ? ,yjr:; 13, ' A ..First ^of all y o u rl i ;fi nd c h l o r a c n e . J/ 14^ ' " Q . So it/, has got .to b e 'h i g h en o u g h s w e ' r e b a c k to 15,, h l o r a c n e , it's got to be 'high e n o u g h ;to c a u s e c h l o r a c n e ? r 16 / i`-' A . Yes j" sir. / .- / - _ ` /, 17' ` Q ' Doctor, h o w ' m a n y p e o p l e ' at Times Beach actually-.ever got 18 19 \ 1 h l o r a c n e ? Y - `. 1 ^ A 1 d o n 1t--my J" - 'y .*< * * * H . 7 * / '/ . J 'r,Y y y - ` i m p r e s s i o n is none.. . ^ f; ' *yn ` /. '; 20 1 Q Y b ,. i nd e d,;-no n e . -A n d D o c t or > h a 1 f -o f th e >p e o p 1 e that 2 1 . 'have" m o d e r a t e d o s e s at N i t r o , a c c o r d i n g to Moses/Se'likf f , nfevei /. Jv, .. " / ' ^ 22; / gotr c h l o r a c n e , -d i d t h e y , Bir? ^ *V.-/ 23- A Y e s , sir,. V * ^ *. . ' ,.,v '1-- [i s'*''; U-ffi-; ji'j.' 1L " 'J ~ '?-`l' -- 24 . Q .So we 're b a c k \io ith ,<a g a i n ,./th e c r i t r i 'o f, Mo n s an t o ' ' i/Jv v-,^1r - 1^ 'i ^ ^ O * ' ,^ ^ ^^ ` ; l';/' if it d o e s n 't c a u s e h l o r c n e i [it1-is* not a High[ e n o u g h d o s e to r J, * 0 ; j .s ii\- t a u s p any, o t h e r >,t r o u b l e , i s ^ \ ' 'V`:- ^ . ` . 3 '\v , A \ Yes',;1s i r . / - it , sir? 1i ." [ [ - - . ^ ' */' . . T ^ '/ ^ ': .' 4 - :' . * ( ri'J j p -_ ' j'* Q Y o u ^ d o n ' t believe" then' that y o u c a n \ h a v e ' l o w d o s k 4" ' - * ` '1 i^ ' s- e x p o s u r e and.'it t a n -have any long.range' ef f e c t , do you., sir? V , 6^ Jv7 HOj./'Sir^-' [\ \\ . r ,HV * 1-Q F Do c t o r , on the t e s t i m o n y that `y o u m a d e w i t h r e s p e c t ta-' ' 8 ' w h a t y o u to ld P a g e t ,or s o m e b o d y . t o te ll the EPA--' r 9 A Y e s , ..sir, ' : ' /. V - V-..`/ / ' ^ -* .- \ 10 . Q . Y o u sa id t h a t - y o u t o l d t h e m to' te ll the E P A t h a t t h e y we ,to a s s u m e t h a t th at .37 p a r t s per, b i l l i o n w a s a l l 2,3,7,, 8 T C D D , *. b 'r r~h'\~ " ' - 'r t r 1 lJ*r / j >' " i 12 ' d i d y o u not; sir? H a v e i / g i v e n the gist of w h a t y o u told' , 'f 13 Dr-. P a g e t to." te il th e . E P A ? ,t -r ' , . . ' 14 m / "A Y e s , 1;sir. ' ./' `j . . .; ^ *5v Q A n d Do ct or , I t h i n k we 1v e re s t a b l i s h e d 1that n e i t h e r you jwOe.t ' .j 16 *"_^ ,< nor, Dr , Paget''iior the\EPA^ r anybody else-has, any memo to that ^h3OO *17-.1 -* effect', h a v e we' not, sir?.; ; ` ' ir PENGAD CO.. BAVONNC. 'N.J. ; is " 'V A No,, sir ^ 1^ . ; .= * ' '!O a 19 . Q' - We h a v e n 't e s t a b l i s h e d that? O : O ` P -20 >r,J- ; ' /V : v", -' 'll V"' .A : X '.thought1--\ ' /.' ` /; ' \ " `T ` ` -> - 'V< \: ' . / : s : . r; * 21 ,/ -, Q Is t h e r e some" w r i t i n g in w h i c h you' h a v to ld `the P A to. x rWj; i :22 23 "24 assume that `that'\37 partedp;er billion^-wassail 2,3 7,8 TCDD? '. u, A `.X t h i n k a o ' *- .*' V - - * - . .. , Q D o c t o r ,7wh e re is / it, b e c au se' the e x h i b i t s ;t hat y o had - " . ` 'j. i- i \ V r-v ' ,, r' * J. r Jj" , ~ * \ ^t f.^} -. . ' , '- \ T' . 86 1 /.In. e v i d e n c e care t h e ~ o n e a / t h a t te il t h e m that y o u b e l i e v e It co ul d ' ,2' .; 3 "4, only, be "kn sm al l .fraction," It c o u l d be "2 , 3 * 7 * 8 TCDD, ar e y o u '1 L - ;v 1 ' r ^r / j J -r** i .a c t u a l l y u n d e r the I m p r e s s i o n that you, h a v e so me t h i n g . in '' , * * r '.- r ; -* 'J 'r ' writing-- ^ , H" ... ' -. - 1> / rK V. 5 A ' Yes, s i r . '' ' ,,, ~ -' 6, Q ` - - w h e r e ..you told the E P A that t h e y are to' a s s u m e -- lr A . I.thought so. 'V ' * ,">s; 1 ' />' v . '' / ; - ' J ` v , F..> , V 8 Q/, A n d .Was y o u r t e s t i m o n y th e n as th e t e s t i m o n y t h at y o u . , -9' ga ve Mr;' H e l n e m a n b a s e d u p o n y o u r th o u g h t th at t h e r e w a s s u ch 10 a me mo , or' a -letter in e x i s t e n c e ? ; . * \s .v< 'L , ' i/ ' '. ' T ' 11 ,;A. ..Y e s , . s i r . " ,r- * ` ' , *. i 12- ,-.Q -.Who t o ld y o u t h a t ' t h e r e was; s u c h , a l e t t e r in e x i s t e n c e ? ,' 13r A As I recall, I read/it . ,v .... ' .14 Q Do ct or , perhaps, y o u r a d t h e , m e m o th at Dr. K a l e y m a d e /,,. J15 In w h i c h he' e s t i m a t e d that .90 p e r c e n t of w h a t Wjas/in. that rsero .-r'*:- " .. , r,,, ; - 1 , - C * j r , 1. >i ^ r / 16 L rs a m p l e w a s 2 , 3 , 7 , 8 T C D D , / p e r h a p s that *8 -what ^y o u / r e a d . . 18 19 20 21 22 .23 ` 24 - .. '' A 1 th o u g h t it w a s P a g e t h a d w r i t t e n to t h e m - a n d said t h a t . ' r - _ '-1 - -* . " J >V. *, Q ' Let pl ;m et /sho ** . w y o u .P l a i n t i f f rs 1 (r j Exhibit ^ 1 114a'2* , .a - n d this : is ^ M J '' - 11 l' \ ^ j* V ,J ,, 1 ''r L 1 blow-up'.1' H a v e y o u e v e r `s e e n .that -exhibit b e f o r e ? ` * `f ' - * * ' ,-- ' 1 . f'V', r1 - , , > <3- n A ,, -> y k, - . - A ` .Y-es.,.' slr^ 1 y^ .ff- **. = -/i! - -r': ;, ` '.''./i ./ : * Sk 1 ' -. k - ' - Q ` And 'yti-saw "It ^wiiere "i t- sa id -h e -estimates t h a t -90 percer of -thee t e t r a m o l e c u l e s "is the; 2 , 3 / 7 , 8 i s o m e r ? '-'i'- *; r . j. * `rr'` if ,'* \ - , J / .. ; / 1,.f'. , '' , . .- * A- Yes, sir". *--,t'"'' J -. 1V,`' ;i,l,i',1t.:`*iiVwC*. iL. 1 _4-i' "J>bv-. li, BAYONNE. N .J . DYOOl ' .FOR MML Z4 B Q1 Did y o u k e e p a c o p y of it by any ch an ce , Dr. R o u s h ? 2 ' A Of this? Q3 Y e s . r , , 4 A No, sir. 5 / ' Q ' Did you get a memo from Dr. Mieure telling you to 6 destroy this memo? '- 7 A No, sir. r" - j. * r Q8 D u r i n g the o v e r n i g h t br ea k, w o u l d y o u c h e c k ,your r e c o r d s 9 and see if you can find y o u r m e m o w h e r e Dr. K a l e y e s t i m a t e s that: 10 90 p e r c e n t of this t e t r a is the 2 , 3 , 7 , 8 is om er ? 11 MR. H E I N E M A N : O b j e c t i o n , y o u r Ho no r, he n e v e r e s t a b l i s h 12 that Dr R o u s h ev er got one. ' 13 T H E COURT: O b j e c t i o n is o v e r r u l e d . 14 A Y e s , sir, I' ll look. 15 Q A n d D o c t o r , is it b a s e d u p o n this m e m o that y o u b e l i e v e 16 th at Dr ..Paget, is it b a s e d u p o n the f i n d i n g there, that y o u 17 b e l i e v e that Dr. P a g e t told the E P A to a s s u m e th at i t fs all 18 2, 3, 7, 8 TCDD ? 19 A No, sir. J l. . !| ^ / - 20 Q There,Is some other.memo other;than that? , * >1 4- l \ r * T 14 *4 i r ^ r, 21 A I don' t - r e c a l l specifically.. A l l - 1 k n o w is w h a t 22 Dr. P a g e t and I ag re ed , and I 1 th o u g h t it was w r i t t e n as such. 23 Q Well, and it's not this one? ' 24 A No, sir. ; ' ( ft *r , ^ >> Q '.But' y o u h a v e s e e n this on e? -V ' \ y< - *. * v 11A . *- 4 ^ i , ; * ,. .'- * J -' ' - - " r< > ;A ' Yes, fi t but that ^as.'after^ the' trial:, w a s s t a r t e d 1; . I 1- d o n ' t - r e c a l l y h a v i n g ,seen; th at b e f o r e *. J ' C}v Now/;po,ctpr, I'm not t a l k i n g a b o u t this, e x h i b i t , this blow-up here, .I'm talking about the one from Wednesday, the % original, m e m o , `the o r i g i n a l K a i e y memo. _V * ^ ^ . *>1-* ~T ^ iH-VJ 'Vh . r*'r '1L-^ r . ' '"A- Y e n y s i r . ` / ry ' ' ' y v ` " J' 7^ ^ ' <8; Q '.You've s e e n the o r i g i n a l Kaiey, m e m o ? . . . \ 9 A X d o n ' t r e m e m b e r the a m e o n ' i t . ., r i; y Q .- Well,, it: d o e s n ' t ,,h a v e a n a m e on it, but i' ve i d e n t i f i e d ' *r. . >. 1Y *, ' , r ` 11 it b y ' h a n d w r i t i n g as. ;Drv:K a i e y 's ; t' ' " "/ ,; , V-; - V '' .! <v y -- , > V ' v - V > J . ii: A , I `w o u l d n ' t r e m e m b e r it as such'. , . v. ,, 'Y y 1. . - ,1\3' 13 Q I d o n ' t w a n t to `c o n f u s e you,*"-I d o n ' t w a n t to m i s l e a d j 14 : ,you, b u t do y o u t h i n k t h a t :y o u have' s e e n the e x h i b i t `of K a i e y ' s >, -: 15- w i t h o u t any .changes :on, it s u c h *as t h i s - o n e , sir?. J J.;\, 16> A Sinc e I h a v e been" in* the trial. -'.* "Y y l\ ;; , *; ` '17 < '*.Q Who:.showed i t to you?. ! ./ ; . 18 .'-A. .In the., d o c u m e n t s that. I r e v i e w e d in p r e p a r a t i o n for-' 19 th is trial. J Y 'Y ,J>\ ', .v - , j. T. 3*pvV-.;;f:r *t>,-, ir1;- a v v */*: y :1 20 Q Okay, -who `gave:'those, d o c u m e n t s to`\ y o u to r e v i e w ? 1 - ^ ; - v >" i 'H, :j. vS';:'fj 1u^. '- . J - -: !. - \ ^^ '. ,t . - y 1 1 y < f1 - \\ ' * * " v "- v p (* 21 ` A- -Heineman. ' ,, - , , .. " ^ 1 3 1" - "- - - r -: * ^ j-k f. f w i i* * ' *' . " a j- > -_ v^ 1 J ri ' . ; ^ ' * -* ,^ * "` ' ,, " '`^ 1 t. 22 Q Weil , is it that? he' i o l d .you. that this was an e x h i b i t . 23 in C o u r t ? *v * t i > ; r v t'J <1 v;'1 24 A N o , 1s i r .J PENSAD CO.. BAYONNE. N.J. 07002, 1 Q It w a s n ' t m a r k e d as an e x h i b i t ? 2 A I don't remember that. 3 Q Do you have a copy of that exhibit, did Mr. Heineman 4 leave a copy with you, sir? 5 A I have v e r y - - o f the d o c u m e n t s that we re given to me, I 6 have had very few of them, 90 percent of them, I don't have. 7 Q But you do remember seeing an exhibit that Mr. Heineman 8 showed you that had no changes on it and that he told you that 9 it was, what did he tell you about that exhibit? 10 A I Ju st re ad it, I just w e nt through. II Q Do ct or , b a c k at the time of the o c c u r r e n c e Itself, at 12 the time of the spil l in J a n u a r y of '79, did you h a v e dlsc us sl oi 13 w i t h p e o p l e then in w h i c h it was d i s c u s s e d that it was yo ur 14 c h e m i s t ' s th o u g h t that 90 p e r c e n t of that tetra I s o m e r was 15 2 , 3 , 7 , 8 7 16 A May have, but I don' t r e c a l l it. 17 Q Wh at you do know, f r o m a m e d i c a l v i e w p o i n t , and th at 's 18 the r e a s o n you told Dr. P a g e t to tell it to the EPA, wh at y o u dc 19 k n o w f r om a m e d i c a l v i e w p o i n t is that y o u s h o u l d a s su me that 20 it's one h u n d r e d p e r c e n t 2, 3, 7, 8, even t h o u g h y o ur c h e m i s t s 21 says that he e s t i m a t e s that it's 90 p e r c en t. 22 A It's an e x e r c i s e in t o x i c o l o g y to c o n s i d e r , if y o u ' v e 23 got a c h e m i c a l and you are not sure w h e t h e r it is one or another 24 d e r i v a t i v e of it is to a s s u m e that it's all one. r!|* V ' "^ _/Tt r v ;l- <'- i v< , *y, 90 PENSAD CO.. BAYONNE, N.J. 0700*' FORM IL24B f~1 "I *'vc V2^ b o '' 'o. J-f-,' ; J : Q Th at -s.,t o be on the eaf e; / s i d e - - i s n t . ,i t , sir? :\ ,A YeS,---sir, ,yy ;y\yv 'V f. -- - \y '-y / 1 .' 'y Q , Now, tha t same philosophy, applies no t -just with the jy4-1> J ch e m i c ale s p i l l e d in S tur geo n ,..but that ",sa me p h i l o d o p h y a p p l i e s rl n \s*;v :,,j;t o . t h e -c h e m i c a l s that go o u t J to' o t h e r c u s t o m e r s V it, a p p l i e s ,v ^ 'V , 1* '. ^ *' fc , ^ , r "". J -4- '*\ +r to ^J *p J- ' ~ r' -% Y v 6r ; the, p e o p l e t h a t b u y y 6 ur `Sa n t o p h e n o V : y o u r 2, A - D i c h 16 r 6 p h e n o 1 > y r i\ " *< * . ,,y . d o e s n 't t,y^sir?. ' J- /" [" y^'y.v \ r\ y, / ur . 8V --Y e s V ^ s i r v ; '2 ...y- ^ -v ^ ` ..9 J Q.. T h e y h a v e to .b e Vtdid th at vdf ythe t e t r a i s o m e r , .that unit S3. JO y o u c a n s p e c i f i c a l l y V a y and d e f i n i t e l y say that. it i s :not v ^ v '` V `y - -y. 'ir \-r __ _- v" r ",/-** r> 1 - L*"v ' 11, - ;*-2fi'3>7*8j TC-DD, t'h*a'(t t h`e y ,should, act a np(d-t-Li,a s's u m e*/**t'h at it- /is' a l l" ...f ^ T ", 'i ^ r 't ^ tf \ 1 u "1 .. , r ^- 12 '' 2,3,1 98 T C D D , sh ou ld n' t t h e y , -s i r ! y'; ;; -' ;v. 'v \ r >- 13; " i *.Vt ,,-A ' X t - d e p e n d s o n w h a t the purpose, they.'re g o i n g - t o u s e it . ^ ' 'r- L \ r.v. '- . ' ^ *'J. f \r " ; X ' - ' 'r ,(Q y Well,. ,if h u m a n s a r e g o i n g t o ,be e x p o s e d to- it, s p r a y e d - y.., ^ `? - i- .v " t -r 15, o n the, lawns^or. u s e d onythe^ tablesy ory ithe-'floors, anything- llk"e. 16 that , your; c u s t o m e r s 'should all be told- to .assume/ t h a t .it 's all `17 18 : 19 -20 2 , 3 , 7 , 8 T C D D V if -y o u , c a n n o t ' a s s u r e t h e m /t hat yo u 've ' tea t ed i t1 - -7 ' yj 1( - 'y . ^,/yi-1-ri '>' '"`i ^ ^ ^ - / -t." - ; 1and' 't-hat it-'-Vs-;Ino't '2 ,-f3 p7 jy 8 ;T.jC.*D*D', ri:sn.' t; t^hat c o r r e c t , sir , f r o m` * 1^ t ^ *.P L , r % .^ j a toxieological-yviewpoint?'v .. C V r. k J. - - 9 ^ \ A'. - \i:Y - ,; ' - ;N: V.--' rf ,*Ii i^ r :/ fv A l If ; I -,thinki;it 's -h a z a r d b u s , .1^w o u 1 d' te l 1 y t h e m that. ' .V'^ 21 Q ` N o w> Do ctor;, *-you. d idn V t ; t h i n k :the 37 pa rt a per' b iil l i o n ; y ''y > r ^ i .V- *. *y -y . -^ y . - . '22.,'. -was h a z a r d o u s ? '23.,. *A' : -No. s i r ; T^ + - v' ,j " , ' A", V 'y 1 j% '24 Q in Sturgeon, have you, sir?. 1 A No, sir. r <' . 2 Q . B u t yet you told Dr. Paget to tell the EPA that they 3 should assume that It is all 2,3,7,8, did you not, sir? 4 A No, sir. 5 Q I Jt h o u g h t you ju st t e s t i f i e d to that t h a t ^ y o u instructet 6 Paget to tell the EPA that you are to as su me that I t 's all 1 2,3,7,8 TCDD? 8 A No, sir. ? Q What did you say then,- sir? 10 A We told t h e m that e v e n if it w e r e all 2, 3, 7, 8, we didn't 11 t h i n k ther e w o u l d be any h a z a r d f r o m it. 12 Q Well, then, you* d i d n ' t tell t h e m to a s s u m e that it was 13 2* 3 , 7 , 8 TCDD, did you, sir? 14 A We a s s u m e d it, and t h a t ' s the b a s i s for our s t a t e m e n t . 15 Q Do ct or , y o u d i d n ' t tell t h e m that, did you, sir? 16 A I t h i n k we did. ^ \ 1 " -rJ"'' '_ 17 Q Now, Do ct or , y o u ei th er , y o u t e s t i f i e d w i t h Mr. Heinemar ; i` 1.t _ i- *, 111 s 18 u n d e r pa th that y o u told Dr. Pa ge t, y o u I n s t r u c t e d h i m to tell ,19 the E P A that t h e y were' to, as su m e - t h a t , it ^was all 37 p a r t s per 20 b i l l i o n , wa s all 2 , 3 , 7 , 8 TCDD ,; d i d y o u .not t e s t i f y tothat, sir? 21 ' i> 11 i \ i ? i A If X said to assume, then X was wrong. .. y 22 Q Yes, in de ed . B e c a u s e y o u h a v e no m e m o and you ha ve no 23 r e c o l l e c t i o n , and you d i d n ' t tell Dr. P a g e t n o r a n y o n e else to 24 tell the E P A to a s s u m e that it w a s all 2 , 3 , 7 , 8 TCDD, did you, si 1 A I think we did. Not, to assume-'-' 2 Q Make up your mind, please, sir. 3 A Not to assume, but act as though It were. 4 Q T h a t 's s o m e t h i n g else? 5 A Yes, sir. 6 Q My question is, you d i d n 't tell anybody' to assume that 7 it was all 2,3,7,8 TCDD? ." 8 A No, sir. 9 Q And so when you.testifled to that earlier with Mr. 10 Heineman,. y o u w e r e - m i s t a k e n ? 11 A Yes, sir. 12 .Q B e c a u s e you d l d n 't te ll t h e m t h a t , did you, sir? 13 A No, sir. 14 Q W h a t y o u told t h e m w a s you b e l i e v e the 2 , 3 , 7 , 8 i s o m e r 15 is Ju st a smal l f r a c t i o n of the t e t r a I s o m e r s p r e s e n t , d i d n 't 16 y o u v sir? ': ' k ^: r - 17 A N o , s i r . 18 '' ' r"" J *t r J Q1 Doctor,; there is a l e t t e r in evidence signed by Mr. Mete 19 in w h i c h y o u say e x a c t l y that, d o n ' t you r e c a l l that, sir, by 20 you, I m e a n Monsanto'. 21 A X r e m e m b e r a m e m o f r o m Mr. M e t c a l f , but I d o n 't r e m e m b e r 22 wh at it said r e l a t e d to it. 23 Q Doctor, I can dig it out of the, file, but: w o u l d y o u 24 ac ce pt for the m o m e n t m y s t a t e m e n t to y o u th at w h a t y o u a c t u a l l y I told the EPA In w r i t i n g is that it is your be li ef that the 2 2,3,7,8 isomer is just a small fraction of the tetras present, 3 would you assume that for a moment, sir? 4 A Yes, sir. 5 Q Now, that's not the same thing as telling them that 6 they are to assume that it's all 2,3,7,8 is it, sir? 7 A No, sir. 8 Q As a matter of fact, it's telling them the opposite, 9 that in your belief Just a little bitty bit of 2,3,7,8 TCDD, 10 isn't it, sir? 11 A No, sir. 12 Q It is no t? If y o u are t e l l i n g t h e m that you b e l i e v e 13 It is o n l y a small f r a c t i o n is 2,3, 7, 8, is that the same th in g 14 as t e l l i n g t h em that it's all 2, 3, 7, 8 or that th ey are to a s su 15 that 1 1 '8 all 2, 3 , 7 , 8 ? 16 A No, sir. 17 Q It isn't the same, is it, sir? 18 A No, sir. 19 Q Sir? 20 A No, sir. 21 Q O b v i o u s l y isn't the same. 22 A No, sir. 23 Q Now, Doctor, w h e n it come s do wn to t e l l i n g y o u r c u s t o m 24 if y o u do k n o w that it's not 2 , 3, 7, 8 TCDD, isn't yo u r be st bet 1 to go from a to xi co lo gi ca l vi ew po in t to go on the a s s u mp tion 2 that it is all 2,3,7,8 TCDD? Let me put it a di ff er en t way, 3 Doctor. If you've got a bottle with ten aspirins in it-4 A Yes, sir. 5 Q And somebody has told you that one of those things that 6 look like as pi ri n ma y be cyanide, isn't it best for you to 7 assume that it's all cyanide when you use that bottle? 8 A Yes. 9 Q And the same thing is true for the 2,3,7,8, is it not, 10 sir? 11 A At some level. 12 Q But Do ctor, ba ck to w h a t e v e r the leve l m a y b e -- 13 A Yes, sir. 14 Q If you d o n 't k n o w that it's not 2 , 3 , 7 , 8 for the sake of 15 s a f e t y ' s sake, it is best to a s s u m e that it is all 2, 3, 7, 8, 16 is n' t it, sir? 17 A For s a f e t y ' s sake, yes. 18 Q Now, Dr. Roush, did y o u ever, ever, ever at M o n s a n t o 19 tell anybody, y o u r c u s t o m e r s , the p e o p l e at S t u r g e o n , the p u b l i c 20 a n y b o d y at all that they w e r e to a s s u m e that the te tr as that you 21 k n e w w e r e p r e s e n t in yo ur c h l o r i n a t e d p h e n o l s , they w e r e to as su 22 that 1 1 '8 all 2 , 3 , 7 , 8 tetra? 23 A No, sir. 24 Q And they h a v e n ' t to this day b e e n told that, h a ve they, 95 i, '2 v "i Dr. Roush? , ; - .'V '*r ' ^ ! -- _ '* ", . f. ' ^ ' y< m ` A ; - , I d o n * 1 -know -f f 1;^/ !\ ", ` t v\ ... ^ 3 Q Do y o u h a v e a n y .knowledge' th at t h e y h a v e b e e n t o l d that. 4 `^sir ? ''' -V, . ^ *- ^ " > . ' ' - ; ^ J y1, .. r ^ ^ - .. '"V J L. : ,- v . r r r, 5` A It Is m y ; i m p r e s s i o n . t h a t 'some of th'm^have been. 6: 7'V / ** 8" ' ; ,t'-' ` - ' > . 1 <j \ . Q W h a t y o u ; k n o w i s ^ t h a t . a . p o l i c y s t a r t e d in* 19 84 -8 5 y o u ,v S ' * - *T,,4 ^ t * *i 'J ^r i W* - ' p ,J.- * * * ,-'*r' * 1 '#1 1 _ " ' k- L"r tr * _ nv ,1 h a v e b e e n t e l l i n g them, a b o u t t e t f a t h o l , h a v e n - t .y o u , sir?-' , A : : I k n o w that has' ;b e e n -- J ' , ' \r r ' '- /9 Q - Yes,,; but' that 's jus*- p o l i c y th at y o u -s t a r t e d w i t h t et ra- 10 . thol. Y o u d i d n ' t tell, any of y o u r c u s t o m e r s b e f o r e that* d i d 11 you; BiT? ^ r . ; ' -V> X ' * 7y- L '; ' , 12 f . 13 ** >- A -I d o n ' t k n o w fa -77 ' X \ - ^ ,`,, :' ! ; >^ -* 1 7 ;* ? ,*/< . *fr ff y \i . '*i': v;-- ' ..-o--,f, i"- . p - .You, had;.nd"-knowledge- that y o u di d? ' ;, , ' - ; . - ,` -- * v: 14 15 16 . r. r- , . .\ A Q time. ''T h a t 'sr'i'not in, m y ,'rwouldi be ;c o m i n g a c r o s s m y desk. ,, *. j- ^ i . . ,' y - i ''\ : y s f s' '-i t - .' . .vOh, D o c t o r i n d e e d it would. You get requests all l-;Yi ; . . *' ',4. ' ^ ' ^ ^ ^ ^' \ ' v r * * T\ * *' I t I s ryour; functijpini;'you; are ;do] c o n s u l t w i t h y o u r - the ' .- 'k ^ r J \ <(' ' ' t 17 marketing' and tell t h e m what, t h e y s h o u l d te ll the c u s t o m e r s as 18 .. ;to the, t o x i c i t y ^of your, p r o d u c t s , th at is your" f u n c t i o n , is it^ 19. - 'not, ,sir? ,,1 . . -' . . E. - ' 20 * ^ ,j A J - Yes,*`*'2Ls1 i",,'r..-, . ,j .' 'If *1 . , , :` ^ ' r 1 J1 \ 1 1 . "' 1> ^ > 4? 1 *, 1 21 : r 1 MR. CARR: : Your. Honor, I'm at` four o'clock. ^1 -22 . 23 . ..THE COURT: L a d i e s and g e n t l e m e n , we w i l l a d j o u r n for - ,'^ -r j -`'V'f J ^ ^ ^ r r ., jt now. W e w i l l st ar t u p Jt o m o r r o w m o r n i n g . As I to ld y o u e a r l i e r 24 r 1 at 10:30 i n s t e a d of- 9 : 0 0 r I. w o u l d r e m i n d .y o u .as i do f o r ; a n y 1 f*NGAD_ CO., BAVONNE. N.J - 96 . i- ' 1 o v e r n i g h t .break that y o u a r e not to' read,, listen' to, or w a t c h : .2 ' . a n y t h i n g about" this /casaV,!?. P,articular or 'subjfectTmatter in * .3 ,'' g e n e r a l ,in' a n y of the m e d l a r p r i n t o r / e l e et r o n i c ,- T h a n k y o u - 4 ; ' for y o u r .a tt e n t i o n and c o o p e r a t i o n . / Cour t is .adjourned. `5 ' (At this time Court adjourned for the day and -6 1 f . r ~ , ihl the ,f o l l o w i n g p r o c e e d i n g s ; w e r e h e l d 'In., c h a m b e r s ) 1 j ' ` . THE COURT: Your*want to make ,a.motion? ^ .8 r '9 10 1 MR. -H E I N E M A H : -Yes, your Honor.; The M o n s a n t o C o m p a n y 1, -a ' -^ \ ` ' " rV '1^ w o u l d l i k e to m--o v e at- th-i/s,.rt i m e .for ra m i s t r ia l.' .of th is c a u s e on the g r o u n d s th at M r C a r r ' h a s .I n s e r t e d this R u s h Ci ty info rm at io n- ;n , i n f r o n t o f t h e ^ - j u r y ., Dr. ,.Roush. n e v e r / m e n t i o n e d R u s h City. *>*v 12 . V;-Mr . ' -- , Cart knows. ri. * $y > . - th;t;ARush/Cty,-.there *is a' suit - o u t s t a n d i n g again st 13 M o n s a n t o Company- out of the R u s h ' C i t y ' i n c i d e n t t h a t , m e m b e r s o f .* -J - * aS,c i. ;* j ' ;'- >f.`/-v ,l , '' l *- . . ' ;'l 14 " ,-the J u r y a r v e r y .likely to lkriow *abo.ut\the suit, very, l i k e l y .j 1.15 16 know .people thatv': a-:ri i';/-*f-e p,r/ s h 'N-a;t;i v evs So .t .t h e f VJ ' r * j- P "* * . J - 1* * y1" * '' clas s that* a br i n g i n: > *. ^ ^ 4 j '"11 " > , * / '' the suit.. .T h e / s o l e .purpose -of b r i n g i n g t h a t ' i n f o r m a t i o n in f r o h '7 `- of .the j u r y w a s for .inflammatory and p r e j u d i c i a l p u r p o s e s . It * 18 has no p r o b a t i v e v a l u - w h a t s o e v e r ; and' to the e x t e n t e v e n if ~ 19 It c o u l d be a r g u e d th a t . i t did h a v e a n y p r o b a t i v e value,; the 20 ' ' - - - . - V / '." j,. * / ./y..' i npf*l a m"m a tt!o r1hy' ar1n~*.td^"-Vpnrr'-e j u ' d i c'i'a\ l ./ r'1'- ' ' l,:.f - i n a't1u r e ; oJwpfr i t /,*'f'aT'r ,Jo-*ur't~w'i1e'iy'g,h s ' a n y 21 p r o b a t i v e v a l u that c o u l d p o s s i b l y r e s u l t f r o m it*. A n d . yy- 22 > /therefore':it was clearl y impr op er to b r i n g it out in front of r 23:- the ju ry , and we o b j e c t e d to. it at -the ti me and n o w th at the y 24 \. ju ry 's h e a r d it,- t h e r e is,no.Lw a y to r a s e it f r o m t h e i r m i n d s ./ PENGAO CO.. BAYONNE, N.J, 07002 fO B * Il 'J A B 1 'Y 97 l a n d - w e m o v e for a m i s t r i a l - h a s d ou' It . ' >' i 3 M R . f C R R f M y r e s p o n s e -is,,,,,first pf all, I d i d n 't r e m e m b e r . 1 p r o b a b l y k n e w p n c e u p o n 1a t i m e ,th a t t h e r e w a s a '` ^ ,* r j -4 suit, but I d i d n 't have' it in m y m i n d u n t i l Mr. H e i n e m a n just 5 . mentioned it, and 1 wasn't aware that it was a class action - ':6 j suit,, in any event, and I ' d i d n ' t have, it in my, m i n d w h e n 1 was /? asking' the question, and'I. of course didn't refer to any sultv, 8 "i '9J b e c a u s e I -didn't h a v e it' l.n iny.m i n d . . But n e v e r t h e l e s s , the T 1" # R u s h C i t y was. an an o l o g y . -Jurors re a w a r e of- t h e ' f a c t that *j dO/ R u s h C i t y a n d : r o t h e x ^ c o m m u n i t i e s / a r "hextV to, w e l l , t h e r e is no - ./ -' Vi.* r : ;i\% y ,,- vK`i,-'** \y* v j . . - <- . y 11. - o t h e r c o m m u n i t y V 'n e x t to' M o n s a n t o otner^ttan R u s h City-,/ but in ,12 13 : ; i m m e d i a t e^.pjr o xjim iw1tv**y:-M, rr/aj\n\^td f'Vi Vr t i*/w'avs.'-i*,..a-v-*'pJaJj'5r^al-V-<l e l with the Niiro plant and s i m p l y for the p u r p o s e to- s h o w the w i t n e s s w a s i n s i s t i n g 14 that- th es e peopie.'-that^llve; in, ther K a h a w h a V a l l e y r d o n ' t -have 15 e x p o s u r e w h e r e a s I k n e w that in the M o n s a n t o , S a u g e t i n c i d e n t . / 1617 , that -the' p e o p l e did; li ve n e x t to it, and did/have' s o me r e a s o n to J - _ - ' `-L , f* ' y ' j _ _ . be subjected to the harmful effect of those chemicals.just like 18 the p e o p l e i n . K a n a w h a V a l l e y , and I u s e d that as a n e x a m p l e t h a 19 I k n e w a b o u t a n d r that I k n e w the w i t n e s s w o u l d k n o w a b o u t I n 20 o r d e r to attempt, to d e s t r o y .his p o s i t i o n that l i v i n g n e x t to 1 21 a; c h e m i c a l p l a n t" ^* o r'*"l i 1 v i ng .' +( ln"a M,, - vaVl^ley;l *1 w h'e r r e , C- there 4r are-chemical "- 22 pl an ts th at are not g o i n g to" c a u s e a n y Jp r o b l e m . , '` 1 Jt- " - ,'* /l t J- j,23 M R i HE IN E M A N ./.Well,- y o u r H o n o r , ther e have, b e e n -J 24 , n e w s p a p e r a r t i c l e s a l l ov er t h e p l a c e / a b o u t the R u s h C i t y PENGAD CO* BAYONNE. N.J, 98 ^ J. -i .'/** V , c-.J" -Vi- 1" T- % .r- --V- incident, the Rush City lawsuit, and I can't' Imagine that ';-[* .. , ' -, : ` * -," -, - .^ : 2, i-- . ' ' .1 i. n.; ` f '' * i-1" Mr. C a r r d i d n ' t ' h a v e any viiia *that t h e r / w a s e u c h R s h C i t y . / .3" ^ la ws ui t. . ^ ; ' ,v "r " ; ' ''Z ,1 . 4 { , 1 MR. CARR: .r W e l l i m a g i n e it , b e c a u s e I .didn' t ; ( , ' 5 ' " THE COURT:' Well, I donVt think it m a k e s any di f f e r e n c e ,.`6 I v t h i n k it w a s 'an-appropriate, a n a l o g y / , It w a s n o t ' b r o u g h t up r. l n L a p r e j u d i c i a l - m a n n e r , ' The fact th at l a w s u i t e x i s t s d o e s - m s; not b a r / it f r o m b e i n g u s e d as an anology,' just' as I h a v e - ''9 p r e v i o u s l y r u l e d 1..thkt^the p l a i n t i f f /and the d f e n d a n t c o u l d u s e 1 . i'*"- u r /' - . - '! ;io m a t t e r s f r o m C h e N l t r p . s i t u a t i o n ' a n d 't n e V A g e n t O r a n g e s i t u a t i o n * ', ' It ' !" ' p p'V ^ ^i ' A. _ 'H il . b si d as, r e ga rd 1 e e s o f .th e: fa'Ct *,,that th e re .w e r e 1 aws u i t s in' ; ' -r r * -i V--' " J fi- .12 ;: . ,r.\ " ' - exis te nc e and. that were in x l s t n c e in fact prior, to the ,,,/ 13;m i n s t i t u t i o n of this -t r i a i s ;an d t h e r e f o r e th R u s h C i t y lawsuit,' J - - . ,r 'j ' r t-jf J1 f 1-! ' V - - *"-r * < * ' ' ,V 7 '" r` ' v .j , if. my'memory' s e r v e s m e c o r r e c t l y , w a s f l l e d by axi a t t o r n e y riot 15 in Mr. C a r r ' s f i r m a f t e r the b e g i n n i n g of this l i t i g a t i o n an d 16 d u r i n g the time in wh i c h / t h e " j u r o r s h a v e . b e e n a d m o n i s h e d ,n o t 'to 17 ^ re ad a n y t h i n g i n a n y of the m e d i a - a b o u t t h e ' s u b j e c t m a t t e r in . :|8 g e n e r a l ofc- this 1case- in p a r t i c u l a r . r J u s t 'as it's not / * -l*-'' *' .19 . p r e j u d i c i a l to r e f e r to t h e s e o t h e r m a t t e r s , it w a s not 20. r, 1 -J ^ *m * ' - p r j u d i c i a i and w a s in/fact, p r o p e r to r e f e r 1 to- th R u s h C i t y 21 : situation as/an anologous s i t u a t i o n / S o on all those bases 22n 1,* 23 "24 and i n c o r p o r a t i n g all m y / r e a s o n s on C h e 1N i t r o l i t i g a t i o n and th<: A g e n t O r a n g e l tlgtoh,VrI am d e n y i n g y o u r motion, for a 'mistrial. , 1 ; , /- BAYONNE. N;J. 07002 ' FOU JC 2 4 0 99 f,v . - MR; CARR: Has there been class action filed? :2 \ ` ;; L T H E C O U R T : T h e r a rs b e en a cl as s a c t i o n ;fi l ed -by 3 ' ..Jack N o r t o n on be h a l f o f .some re s i d e n t s down: there, I d o n 't kn o^ 4 ^ if it is a c l a s s a c t i o n o r V n o t - ',, ' s ; :>. , MR. NASSIF: It is a class, action. ` ' / : 6 MR.- C R R r F i l e d on; b e h a l f of e v e r y b o d y in R u s h C i t y ? ; 'Ty MR. 'MASSIF: , H e 7 p u t - 4 3 5 , 435, p e op le . :'8-; 9 10 * n *\ / MR.' CARR: . But n a m e d V p l a i n t i f fs /per. e? * ,s ' :-v . -, . u- i Ty* tv r ^ , ` y ' a ' - i\. , ' ' " r ', \ 1 * 'T .* f i'., ' i ; .. 5 ' ,} `Z ` i . . L ' - i j - - ,T '. MR. H A S S I F T >Named* la l a r g a ^ g r o u p v o f p e o p l e t d ' b e - J ` " - -; / ' J<0'i, V-t JV r ''---/ `--T- -J ' ,, ' :v r e p r s e n t t Ives o iv that c l s s , and,,it ..was f i l e d on b eha 1 f 'of . ,, .... v i -V u'j --U;v* 1 I 'J V J " * ,< % s e v e r a l m i n i s t e r s . ^ . v -V y ;I-1 'i Jvl' 12 13\ *' 14 - r /. .MR." HEINEMAN:,/, Y o u ;do- w a n t 'this on the r e c o r d ? f1 - 1 ,,vj1 * * * I* ' t * t \ y \f M 1 v- 1 *r' y J- ^ .i' i - -T. * ' _- r ; ' t' ( `MR. CRR: - I w a n t to know, y o u sa id itJ w,as a clas s , LL / action and I want' to know whether it,was. / 1 15- - M R . ' N A S S IF; ' It is, I d o n 't k n O w if it s t i l l is today, 6 J- but it wa's w h e n i t ' me-rin*. ` 17 , '18 T H E CO.URT: _, 1 ( .r . - kr' ' ` d o n 't' know-. h a v e n ' t e v en s e en the. C o m p l a i n t , r e a l l y i-v,7;-1 .e , a ;> .... >"J,,,v/.'^ ,r, L * -- '/ ^ * j v". 19; 20 " v MR. H S S I F : .I' t h i n k ' t h e r e is.two. gr ou ps , two a t t o r n e y s - h - ,-r -- ; >; : 1 , -1 ^ , -`*-' MR. ,CARR: :You.neap two separate lawsuits' filed? ,, 21 ;; . MR.. H A S S IF:. . M a y b e , b u t t h e r e is at'least'-two a t t o r n e y s 22' 23 r * J 24 t w o a t t o r n e y gr ou ps . I t h i n k it- w a s f a r m e d out -from the `.J ' ; r r' .. - - ' "V -ti,vrIV` '' r - ,` -, >7' ; -, . ` ," a t t o r n e y that' i n i t i a l l y f i l e d it w i t h another, a t t o r n e y . T H E C O U R T : 'T k n o w ' N o r t o n filed, i t , -.and .t h at w a s .t h e . ; 'r ' *- -v; ;* ,, '-'j 1 BAYONNE, N.J. 070 02 . FORM' IL 24B -t 100 . 1. one th at w a s m e n t i o n e d I n the* p a p e r s . :' ' MR. H E I N E M A K ; T h a t 's* the o n e - I k n o w , t h a t *e the o n l y ) - .* ;< ' v.r.: - ' 1, *'' . , / f` 3 o n e - X know.*;/ .` - ^ : r' 1 * T;'' " * . ' * * '14 MR., M A S S I F : I ' t h i n k t h e r e might, be s o m e b o d y e l se i. 5 I n v o l v e d . ' % .1J / , 6 ^ T H E COURT:. He *may 'have c o - c o u n s e r on l.t.*r; O k a y , 1 - 'l 'yf. ,8 9 . 10 'll 1 'f\2 13 /t [ :14 > 1,15. (At;this time the 'In-chambers conference, L % i;i- 1.>,, Y;- -\' .1i" [ \s. ii!*>** ' adjourned;)' -- 'It v l!~ f ;*''' 4 11*m *> y \/ v ' V.--^ * 'J - 'p,K *\^ >V, f f}v ..* ' * *A V 5 - t* . ' s,,i .j -;A v*- *. -l-- i*'1-i- . - ' 116 '17. .:18 19 20 `n . J2l >22- 23 J 24 BAYONNE.' N ;j. 0 7 0 0 * FORM IL- 1 STATE OF ILLINOIS r ) ) SS. 2 COUNTY OF ST, CLAIR ) 3 4' 5 6 7 I P a t r i c i a A, G a n d y , . C S R , RPR, O f f i c i a l C o u r t 8 Reporter in and for the Twentieth Judicial Circuit, and the 9 Official Court Reporter who transcribed th above-styled cause 10 had on J u l y 25, 1985, do h e r e b y c e r t i f y that the f o r e g o i n g 11 t r a n s c r i p t of p r o c e e d i n g s is a true, c o r r e c t and c o m p l e t e 12 t r a n s c r i p t of the p r o c e e d i n g s had on s a i d date. 13 D A T E D this 2nd d a y of August'* `1985, 14 15 16 '7 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24