Document YGQJZpowJZ33DwDVx04246bwy

FILE NAME: Welding (WELD) DATE: 1996 Mar 12 DOC#: WELD027 DOCUMENT DESCRIPTION: Legal - Deposition of John Dement PAGESAVER DEPOSITION OF JOHN IN THE SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF DELAWARE IN RE: IN AND FOR NEW CASTLE COUNTY ASBESTOS LITIGATION ) MOORE TRIAL GROUP ) jC.A. No. 92C-11-009 Limited to: S. Przybylski ) )C.A. No. 92C-09-115 ELAM TRIAL GROUP ) ) )C.A. No. 93C-08-250 Limited to':^ V. August ) )C.A. No. 94C-04-114 DEPOSITION OF J O H N D E M E N T , PH D . AT DURHAM, NORTH CAROLINA MARCH 12, 1996 10:00 A.M. REPORTED BY: KIMBERLY A. PETRARCA, CVR DEMENT. PAGE APPEARANCES For the Plaintiff: Robert Jacobs Jacobs & Crumplar 2 East 7th Street Post Office Box 1271 Wilmington. DE 19899 For the Defendant: Ralph A. Davies Davies, McFarland & Carroll The Tenth Floor One Gateway Center Pittsburgh, PA 15222-1416 TABLE O F EXAM IN Dr. Dement Direct, Mr. Davies Cross, Mr. Jacobs PAGE N T S S 118 PAGE STIPULATIONS It is hereby stipulated and agreed between the parties to this action, through their respective counsel of record: 1. The deposition of John Dement, Ph.D., may be continued on March 12, 1996, beginning at 10:00 a.m., at the Washington Duke Inn, 3001 Cameron Boulevard, Durham, North Carolina, before Kimberly A. Petrarca, a notary public. 2. Said deposition shall be taken for the purpose of discovery or for use as evidence in the above-titled action or for both purposes. 3. Any objections of any party hereto as to notice of the taking of said deposition, or as to the time or place thereof or as to the competency of the person before whom the same shall be taken are deemed to have been met. 4. Objections to questions and motions to strike answers need not be made during the taking of this deposition but may be made for the first time during the progress of the trial of this case, or at any pretrial hearing held before any judge for the purpose of ruling thereon, or at any other hearing of said case at which said deposition might be used, except that an objection as to the form of a question must be made at PAGE the time such question is asked or objection is waived as to the form of the question. 5. That the original of this deposition will be mailed first-class postage to the appropriate party. Notice of filing is hereby waived. 6. That the deponent has the right to read and sign the deposition transcript. PH.D.. M A R C H 12. 1996 sworn, was examined and testified as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. DAVIES: Q. Good morning, Doctor. A. Good morning. Q. You understand, do you not, that this is a continuation of your deposition which we began on January 3, 1996, and that you are still under oath? A. Yes, sir. Q. Have you had an opportunity to read the transcript of that January 3 deposition? A. No. I have not. Q. You don't have it in your possession? A. I have got -- I had returned -- 1 think there were some documents, or a copy, and had the documents returned. But I didn't get a copy of the transcript. Q. When we adjourned last time you had provided to me copies of two different reports, both dated in March of 1995, which had to do with some testing Dr. Dement PAGE 7 that you had performed. Have you done any additional testing other than what is outlined in those two reports? A. No. I have not. Q. I'm sure you recall that during our last session we had a discussion of a whole series of articles on which you will rely, at least in part, for the opinions that you will give in this case. Are there any other articles that you care to bring to my attention today on which you will rely for your opinions, other than what we have already talked about? A. Well, I guess since the deposition, there are a couple of things that appeared in the literature. It's not directly related to welding rods, but it has to do with asbestos. One is a study of mesothelioma looking at tissues from Canadian cases. And I think Raymond Begin is the second author of the paper. I'm not sure who the first author is. Q. Could you spell that for us? A. B-e-g-i-n. And all it was was analysis of tissues Dr. Dement PAGE 8 of mesothelioma cases, some of which had been asbestos, some had been -- and some were different industries in Canada. And the gist of the analysis and conclusions were that the fiber types of concentrations varied between amphraboles and crysotyle. And in terms of causality in any one case, it could have been one or more fiber types. In some cases, for example, crysotyle was higher than the amphraboles. In some cases, the amphraboles were higher than crysotyle. And you may have told me where that appeared, and I missed it. It was published in the American Journal of Industrial Medicine, I believe, was where it was published. And is that an article,that appeared in 1996? I think actually the publication date was either early 1996 or end of 1995. One other article that is more of a review article is by Leslie Stayner. Could you spell that last name? S-t-a-y-n-e-r. He is with NI0SH. And it again addresses the carcinogenicity of crysotyle, and its Dr. Dement PAGE 9 1 Dr. 2 3 4 5 Dement PAGE 6 Thereupon, John Dement, Ph.D. having been previously COURT REPORTING SERVICES ability to produce mesothelioma and lung cancer. And that was published in the APHA journal this last month. What's the journal again? I'm sorry. The APHA, American Public Health Association ~ (919) 832-4114 PAGE PAGESAVER DEPOSITION OF J O H N DEMENT. P H . D . . M A R C H 12. 1996 8 9 Q. 10 11 12 journal. And I thought I understood you to say, before you described those two articles to me, that they had nothing to do per se with welding rods. Is that correct? 10 A. 11 Q. 12 13 14 A. Yes. And as I understand it, Doctor, there were a number of different welding rods that were bumped and rubbed together. Is that correct? Yes. 13 A. They were general asbestos articles. The source of 15 Q. And is it the case that she did the bumping and 14 exposure toasbestos in mostcases wasn't detailed 16 rubbing in each case? 15 other thanthey were in theseindustries. 17 A. Yes. It is. We tried to do that just to maintain 16 Q. Doctor, have you, since our last session, reviewed 18 at least some comparability between the tests. 17 the results or findings of any other tests that may 19 Q. Do you happen to have an address or phone number 18 have been done on welding rods for release of 20 for Ms. Smith? 19 asbestos? 21 A. She is in my -- she can be reached at the same 20 A. No, sir. I have not. 22 number as my number. 21 (THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN OFF-THE- 23 Q. As long as w e 're talking about personnel, I see the 22 RECORD DISCUSSION WHICH WAS NOT 24 name Lori Todd on the report as well. Could you 23 RECORDED BY THE COURT REPORTER.) 25 tell us who she is? 24 Q. Doctor, while we were off the record, you were kind 25 enough to number the pages of your earlier report, Dr. Dement PAGE 13 1 Dr. 2 3 4 5 6 A. 7 Q. 8 9 10 A. 11 Q. 12 13 A. 14 Q. 15 16 17 A. 18 Q. 19 A. 20 2221 Q. 23 A. 24 Q. 25 Dement PAGE 10 which is Exhibit No. 2, dated March 14, 1995. And I think we agree that those numbers go from 1 through 52. Correct? Yes. And then the second report, which is Exhibit No. 1, dated March 29, we have used letters. And those letters run A through P. Correct? Yes. That is correct. Let me ask you to turn. Doctor, if you would, to Page 52 of the earlier report. Yes. Exhibit No. 2? Exhibit No. 2. Yes. My understanding is that this is a sketch of the test equipment that you used. Is that correct? Yes. It is. And did you prepare the sketch yourself? I think Courtney drew it. Courtney is my graduate student. And I think Courtney drew the sketch. And when you say "Courtney," you are referring to Courtney Smith? Yes. And her name, I believe, appears on the -- on Page No. 1 of that report. Is that correct? Lori Todd is a faculty member in the school of public health at UNC. And what was her role in the testing? Well, her role, primarily, was in the original set up of this test chamber. It was set up for some other work. So Lori leased the boxes out. So she was primarily involved in setting up that box originally. Was she present when any of the testing was done? I don't believe so. No. When you say she was involved in the set-up of the box, could you give me a little more detail on that? Did she construct it, for example? Or what exactly did she do? A. No. We -- the box is used for some other work at the school over in one of the labs. And we sat down probably two years ago and essentially designed the layout of the box, how the air filtration would work, how it would be filtered and that type of thing. Well, is it the case, then, that she really had nothing to do with the actual testing of the rods? That is correct. Dr. Dement PAGE 14 1 Dr. 2 3 A. 4 Q. 5 6 7 A. 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 Q. 17 A. 18 19 Q. 20 A. 21 Q. 22 23 A. 24 25 Q. Dement PAGE 11 Yes. That is correct. Can you tell me, since we've mentioned her name, exactly what role she played in the testing that was done? Courtney is a graduate student in industrial hygiene at the school of public health at UNC. She is also my employee, working on some research projects at Duke. Courtney helped basically assemble the materials, set it up, things that graduate students usually do. She also helped in conducting the experiment. It was an opportunity to give her some hands-on experience. Does she still work for you? Courtney is still working for me on another project. Yes. Is she employed anywhere else, to your knowledge? No. And how long has she been with you in an employee/employer capacity? Well, about a year, a little over a year, year and a half. Do you recall exactly what it was that she did in Q. She wasn't present when any of that occurred? A. That is correct. Q. And she is still a faculty member at UNC? A. Yes. Q. And -- I'm sorry. In which department? A. Environmental Sciences and Engineering. Q. Was this testing done at Duke or at UNC? A. It was done in a laboratory at UNC. Q. Is there any relationship between UNC and the Duke University Medical Center? A. Well, we collaborate on a number of things. We're also part of what's called an educational resource center funded by NIOSH for purposes of training people in occupational health, including industrial hygiene, occupational medicine. So, we are part of this educational resource center together. So, we can -- students can actually cross register between the two campuses. Q. The reason for my question is, I see on Page 1 of the report that it bears the name Duke University Medical Center, Department of Community and Family Medicine. Were there any monies paid, to your knowledge, to UNC for the use of their facility in Dr. Dement PAGE 15 1 Dr. Dement PAGE 12 2 3 terms of the actual testing? 4 A. She -- Courtney actually did the bumping of the 5 rods together. And so, she had her hands stuck in 6 the glove box. 7 Q. And were you present when she performed that test? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. The entire period of time? doing this testing? A. I couldn't tell you. I think Lori Todd billed for her time with regards to set-up and consultation on the chamber study, Q. Well -- A. But I can't tell you whether or not, you know, she paid any general monies to the university. Q. Was Lori Todd involved in the actual set-up of the test chamber for the welding rod testing? COURT REPORTING SERVICES (919) 832-4114 PAGE 2 PAGESAVER D EPOSITION OF JOHN DEMENT. P H . D . . M A R C H 12. 1996 She was involved in the original set-up of this chamber. And she certainly -- we had some discussions on the procedures. And so, she participated in some of the discussions on how we 14 Q. 15 A. 16 Q. 17 A. And you are one of them? That is correct. And is it Dr. Todd? Yes. would proceed. What I'm trying to understand is, for what service 18 Q. 19 My question was, other than the two of you, is there anybody else who has reviewed this testing would she have billed, if she billed? She would have billed for her time in consulting on 20 and protocol for its appropriate scientific 21 approach? the conceptualizing the design of the study. 22 MR. JACOBS: I'm going to object to the form, Well, as I understand it, she conceptualized the design along with maybe you and others for an 23 because are you limiting it to the use of the 24 rubbing of the welding rods within, or are you earlier project. Well, she participated in discussion of how this 25 saying, has anybody peer reviewed the utilization test was done. Dr. Dement PAGE 19 Dement PAGE 16 Q. Do you have any idea how much time she devoted to that phase of this particular test? A. I can't tell you. I didn't see her bill, if she billed. I can't tell you if she billed or not. I can't tell you. Who owns the test chamber? A. That's a good question. Probably it's now property of UNC. I can't really tell you who was the owner of the chamber. Is it presently situated at UNC? I don't know. When is the last time you saw it? Probably about the time the study was done. Is there any significance to the fact that Duke University Medical Center appears on the cover sheet of your test report? ' Yes. The primary person who did the design of the study and is the primary author is at Duke. That's me. Does that mean that the university medical center in any way endorses the study that you have done, or the findings that you made? I can't tell you what the university does or of this box as a good box for taking proper sampling? MR. DAVIES I'm talking about this test, and the protocol for this test MR. JACOBS: The protocol here may overlap what I just said. So, I'm objecting as to form. MR. DAVIES: Fine. I think the question is pretty clear. 0. (By Mr. Davies) I just want to know if there's anybody else besides you and Dr. Todd who has peer reviewed the testing that was done here? No. I mean, the test was conducted -- back up one step. The Consumer Products Safety Commission originally, back in the 70's and 8 0 's, is a group that began to do these glove-box tests. And this glove-box set-up is quite similar to the one that they used. So it's not a new concept. Q. Other than yourself and possibly Dr. Todd and Courtney Smith, is there anyone at Duke University or UNC that has a copy of these two test reports? No. So I take it that if I went to the Duke library, or the UNC library, 1 would not find copies of these. Dr. Dement PAGE 20 Dement PAGE 17 doesn't endorse. I can't do that for any faculty member. 0. Well, has anyone at the Duke University Medical Center reviewed the test protocol or the testing that was done, or the results? I can't tell you. I guess one of the things I'm trying to find out is, whether in your view the testing that you have done here has been peer reviewed in any way. It's not in a journal. It's a report to -- on a consulting project. So the answer to my question is no, it has not been? Well, you know, you have to consider peer review being subject to interpretation. But certainly, it was peer reviewed in terms of the protocol by Dr. Lori Todd. Was there a written protocol for this test? Oh, it's in here. The protocol is in the report. All right. So there is no other document, then, as I understand your testimony, which would outline what it was you intended to do or how you were going to do it, or what the equipment would be Is that correct? No. You would not. And the tests have not been published anywhere. Is that correct? No. We haven't published them yet. Other than the Ness Motley firm which, as I understand it, asked you to do this testing originally, and the Jacobs and Crumplar firm, has the report, or have the reports, been shared with any other law firms, to your knowledge? A. 1 haven't sent them to anybody else. I can't tell you how, you know, how widely they've distributed reports. Are you aware of any other law firm that is in possession of one or both of these reports? I couldn't tell you. I sent it to Sherry Ingram. So, I couldn't tell you beyond that. Q. Doctor, would you turn to Page 52 of the -- of Exhibit No. 2, please? I'd like to ask you a few questions about the chamber itself. Can you give me the size of the chamber? A. The chamber sizewise -- again, it's relatively to scale. It sets on a bench. It's a bench-top D r . Dement PAGE 21 Dr. Dement PAGE 18 prior to the testing being done. A. You know, all of this material that is in this report is actually the protocol. This is the protocol. Q. So other than whatever involvement Lori Todd may have had, is it fair to say that the testing and the protocol has not been peer reviewed? A. That's not true. You've got two PhD, certified industrial hygienists who were involved in design, peer review, and this protocol. I consider that to be adequate peer review. glove-box. So it's roughly -- in terms of the box itself, about three and a half, four feet long, and about two feet deep, and around 30 inches high. And then, that's just a rough -- it's not exactly square. It has a sloping front. Do you know what the material is out of which it is constructed? It's a plastic, sort of a plexiglass material. Can you see through it? Yes. It's completely see-through all the way around. And in terms of putting material into or taking it out of the chamber, how is that accomplished? COURT REPORTING SERVICES (919) 832-4,114 PAGE 3 PAGESAVER________ DEPOSI T I O N OF JOHN DEMENT. P H . D . . M A R C H 12. 1996 16 A. 17 Well, it has two openings, two ports on either end that are sealed ports. And that's how you put 18 A. 19 It's enclosed. It's the same materials. one solid piece. It's in 18 material in and out of the chamber. 20 Q. You mentioned that when the circular port coverings 19 Q. It appears to me that the ports in question are 21 are put in place there is some sort of gasket 20 circular. Is that correct? 22 material. Is that correct? 21 A. Yes. 23 A. Yes. It's a -- they're gasketed so they don't 22 Q. Can you give me the approximate dimension of the 24 leak. 23 openings? 25 Q. Do you know what the gasket material is? 24 A. Well, the way these things are constructed is that 25 it's -- there's actually a lip that comes out, and 1 Dr. Dement PAGE 25 2 1 Dr. Dement PAGE 22 3 A. It's just a rubber gasket. 2 3 it has a gasket to fit. And it's, I guess, 10 4 Q. 5 And is the rubber gasket on the chamber, or on the portal covering? 4 inches. 6 MR. JACOBS: Objection as to form. 5 Q. I want to be clear on this. Are you saying the 7 A. I believe it's just an 0-ring that goes around a 6 circumference is 10 inches, or the diameter is 10 8 lip on the outside. 7 8 A. inches? The diameter is 10 to 15 inches. 9 Q. 10 Is that on the outside or the opening, or on the cover? 9 Q. And are the port coverings made of this plexiglass 11 A. I believe it's on the outside of the opening. 10 11 A. material as well? Yes. They are. 12 Q. 13 I take it that during the testing that you did on the welding rods, there was never any type of 12 Q. You mentioned that this chamber was constructed for 14 filtering material in place over either of the 13 use in some other project. 15 ports that we have been discussing? 14 A. Uh-huh (yes). 16 A. No. They're -- they seal. I mean, they are 15 Q. Is that right? 17 airtight seals. 16 A. 17 Q. Yes. Can you tell me when that, the chamber, was 18 Q. 19 As I look at the sketch on Page 52, it appears that there are hand or arm ports on the front of the 18 constructed? 20 chamber. Is that correct? 19 A. I can't -- I don't remember. It was probably at 21 A. Yes. 20 least a year before this study, but I can't tell 21 you any more than that. 22 Q. 23 A. Can you give me the diameter of those openings? Well, these are typical glove ports. The diameter 22 Q. Do you have any idea how many times the chamber was 24 of the actual hole is around six inches at the 23 used prior to the testing that you did in March of 25 outside. 24 1996? 25 A. No. I can't tell you how many times Lori may have 1 Dr. Dement PAGE 26 2 1 Dr. Dement PAGE 23 3 Q. It isn't clear to me what you mean by "glove 2 4 ports." Could you describe that? 3 used it. 5 A. You stick your hand actually through these 4 0. 5 6 A. How many times, if at all, did you use it prior to the welding rod testing? I don't know that we ever used it, to tell you the 6 7 Q. 8 openings. And they are gloved inside. So as I understand it, the glove and glove material attaches to the chamber. 7 truth. It was set up to do some emission studies 9 A. That is correct. 8 from products. But I don't know that I've ever 10 Q. So that there can be no in-flow or out-flow of air 9 used it before that. 11 around the gloves and glove ports? 10 Q. Oo you know the products that were involved in the 12 A. That is correct. 11 emission studies that were done prior to the 12 welding rod testing? 13 Q. 14 When you did the welding rod testing, did you use new gloves? 13 A. No. It's one of Lori's -- I think it was one of 15 A. Yes. 14 15 Q. Lori's projects. Would Lori be the person to talk to if I wanted to 16 Q. 17 A. Where were those gloves purchased? I couldn't tell you. I think they were purchased 16 know how often it had been used, and for what 18 when the original device was bought. 17 projects? 19 Q. I want to be sure I understand. Did you, or one of 18 A. Not really. I think it's more of a device that was 20 the people working with you, actually attach new 19 used by the faculty members as well. So, I don't 21 gloves to the chamber before you started the test? 20 know that she was necessarily the sole proprietor 22 A. Yes. 21 22 Q. of the state. Do you have any idea whether any testing was ever 23 Q. 24 A. And where did you or that person get those gloves? I think it was from the stock material we already 23 done using this particular chamber on asbestos- 25 had. I think they were purchased at the same time 24 containing material before the welding rod testing? 25 A. I couldn't tell you. I can tell you, we did 1 Dr. Dement PAGE 27 2 1 Dr. Dement PAGE 24 3 the material, the -- 2 3 appropriate purge and background samples which were 4 Q. 5 A. Were these gloves at UNC where the test was done? They were at the time. Yes. 4 in the report to make sure that it wasn't 5 contaminated. 6 Q. 7 And do you recall whether they were sealed when you took them out to attach them to the chamber? 6 Q. Do you know if the chamber has been used since? 8 A. I don't recall. 7 A. 8 Q. 9 I don't know. Is it correct that the testing that you did was performed all in one day? 9 Q. 10 11 A. Do you have any idea who the manufacturer of those gloves was? No. No. 10 A. 11 I can't remember. It's been so long -- I think we were over there two or three days in terms of 12 Q. 13 Do you have any idea out of what material the gloves were made? 12 getting it set up. I can't remember whether or not 13 the testing itself extended over more than one day 14 or not. 14 A. 15 Q16 It was just a rubber glove. Was it rubber or a rubber-like material, then, that constituted the glove and also came back to the 15 Q. Does the chamber have a solid bottom? 17 port area where it was attached? 16 A. Yes. 18 A. Yes. And again, I would just elaborate that in 17 Q. And it's constructed of plexiglass as well? 19 terms of any background contamination in this COURT REPORTING SERVICES (919) 832-4114 PAGE 4 PAGESAVER_______ DEPOSITION OF JOHN DEMENT. 20 chamber, that was extensively studied prior to 22 21 doing the test. 23 22 Q. 1 can assure you we will discuss that as we 24 23 progress this morning. While the testing was being 25 24 conducted. Doctor, what was the source or channel 25 for air into the chamber? 1 2 1 Dr. Dement PAGE 28 3 2 4 3 A. The only channel for air into the chamber is 5 4 through the HEPA filter at the top. 6 5 Q. And'is we look at the sketch, I take it that would 7 6 be the HEPA, H-E-P-A, filter which is on the top 8 7 right of the chamber? 9 8 A. That is correct. 10 9 0. How large a filter is that? 11 10 A. I think it's a six-inch square filter. 12 11 Q. Was that filter ever examined or tested for the 13 12 presence of asbestos? 14 13 A. N o . 15 14 Q. As I read your report, it is my impression that the 16 15 chamber was purged on several occasions. And 1 17 16 take it that would be through the apparatus which 18 17 is shown on the top left of the sketch. 19 18 A. Yeah. Basically, that hooks up to a house -- if 20 19 this is a laboratory which has some house vacuum. 21 20 Q. So in order to pull air through the chamber, you 22 21 would suck it out through that apparatus? 23 22 A. Yeah. It would -- the air entering the chamber 24 23 would come through the incoming filter. It would 25 24 be discharged through the HEPA on the outside. 25 0. And on the out-flow port, it indicates that there 1 2 1 Dr. Dement PAGE 29 3 2 4 3 is a HEPA filter. Correct? 5 4 A. Yes. 6 5 Q. And to your knowledge, was that filter ever 7 6 analyzed for the presence of asbestos? 8 7 A. No. 9 8 Q. Were either of those filters analyzed for anything 10 9 at. any time, to your knowledge? 11 10 A. No. I mean, these are certified HEPA filters which 12 11 are -- well, certified HEPA filters. 13 12 Q. Were they new filters when this testing began? 14 13 A. Yes. 15 14 Q. And who inserted them into the apparatus? 16 15 A. I think Courtney installed those. 17 16 Q. Inside the chamber, there are several different 18 17 things depicted. And I want to be sure 1 19 18 understand what they are. One of them appears to 20 19 be a water bottle. Is that correct? 21 20 A. That is correct. 22 21 Q. And what was the purpose of that? 23 22 A. Well, after each test, the chamber was completely 24 23 washed down inside. And so, they were put inside 25 24 prior to the study. 25 Q. The water bottle was in the chamber before the 1 2 1 Dr. Dement PAGE 30 3 2 4 3 study began? 5 4 A. That is correct. 6 5 Q. And then, after each test, the water bottle was 7 6 used to facilitate cleaning the chamber? 8 7 A. That is correct. It's washed down inside the 9 8 chamber. 10 9 Q. And the water bottle was left in the chamber? 11 10 A. During this test, yes. 12 11 Q. Is it fair to say that the bottle stayed in the 13 12 chamber at all times throughout all of the tests 14 13 that were performed? 15 14 A. Well, whenever we had it washed down on the inside, 16 15 the materials inside were then ready to take out. 17 16 Then the water bottle was washed down as well, 18 17 wiped down, and taken out. 19 18 Q. And how was it cleaned? 20 19 A. With a Chem-Wipe that's inside. 21 20 Q. That's the small box in the lower left of the 22 21 chamber? 23 PH.D^.,* f--M_A__R__C__H___1X24..f ,,1J-9^96W ____ A. Right. Q. And what is a Chem-Wipe? A. It's a laboratory paper towel, basically. Q. --D-o-e-s---i-t--h-a-v-e--a-n-y--t-y-p-e---o-f--c-l-e-a-n-i-n-g--m-a-t-e-r-i-a-l---o-r------ ------ Dr. Dement PAGE 31 solvent on it? A. No. That's the reason for the water. Q. And that was left -- that box of Chem-Wipes was left 1n the chamber during the testing? A. Yeah, for purposes of cleaning. Yes. Q. And there also appears to be a small ring stand. Is that correct? A. Yeah. It's just a clamp to hold the filter in place. Q. And that stand was in the chamber, I take it, during all of the testing? A. That is correct. Q. Was it removed at any time? A. No. It was washed down and left in the chamber. Q. And I see that there are two -- what is described as identical welding rods in the chamber as well. Is that right? A. Yes. Q. Were all of the rods that you were going to test placed in the chamber initially? A. No. Each test was independent of each other. Q. Was there anything else in the chamber during the period of testing? Dr. Dement PAGE 32 A. No. I mean, the materials in the chamber are shown. o. It was my impression, from reading your report, that there was a fan involved at some point. A. Yeah. There is a small fan that is basically a fan that's used to cool electrical components. Q. And was the fan in the chamber during the testing? A. Yeah. It's actually mounted in the chamber. Q- Exactly where is it in the chamber? A. It's located up in the top right-hand corner of the chamber. Q. Would that be up near what is described on the sketch as a sampling port? A. It was in that area, but obviously not on that area. That sampling port is just a nipple that allows you to connect an outside vacuum source. Q. And as I understand it, the fan is a permanent fixture inside the chamber? A. Yes. Q. Was it removed at any time during the testing? A. No. It was washed down, again, after each test. Q. And is the fan electrically operated? A. Yeah. It connects -- there are some connections in Dr. Dement PAGE 33 the back, and a switch on the back that's used to turn it on and off. Q. So it is not battery powered. Is that right? A. That is correct. Q. Can you give me the dimensions of the fan? A. It's a small fan, about two or two and a half inches in diameter. And it's simply a fan that you might, for example, find inside a computer housing for cooling. Q- How many blades on the fan? A. Geez. I don't recall. I think there were four. Q. Does the fan operate at just one speed? A. Yes. Q. And I take it that it was at that speed that it ran during the various testing? A. Yeah. It wasn't turned on until -- as the report says, until later in the test. And the idea was just to keep the material mixed in the chamber. Q. Do you have any idea what the revolutions per minute of the fan were? A. No. We weren't interested in trying to quantify COURT REPORTING SERVICES (919) 832-4114 PAGE 5 PAGESAVER DEPOS I T I O N OF JOHN DEMEN T. P H . D . . M A R C H 12. 1996 24 that. It was simply a mixing fan that has one 25 purpose only. 1 Dr. Dement 2 PAGE 37 1 Dr. Dement PAGE 34 3 called a bubble meter. The commercial name is 4 called a calibrater. It's simply a bubble meter. 2 3 And that purpose is mixing? 5 So you calibrate the air flow for the filter that 6 you're going to use. 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 1112 13 Q. 14 15 A. 16 Just to keep the material mixed in the chamber. When you say "mixed," does that entail getting it off the floor of the chamber and into the air? No. It's -- the idea is just to keep a more uniform concentration of airborne material by having a little turbulence inside the chamber. You are only sampling at one point in the chamber. And therefore, you want to have as well-mixed material as you can. Is there any reason why the fan is not shown in the sketch? We just forgot to draw it, I guess. There's no reason why. It's described in the report. 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 ' 14 15 16 17 18 19 Q. We also, as it says, we collected a background sample for 20 minutes in the chamber before tine test. We then turned on the air after the -- after we did the background sample. And that was sealed and closed. It was left in the chamber. The chamber was not opened up. We then installed a filter to be used for the study, and we began the air flow. We then removed the plastic bags from the rods, and they were just bumped and rubbed together for a period of about 15 minutes. And during that 15 minutes, the air sample was still running. Let me stop you there, if I may, and back up a 17 Q. 18 As I understand your testimony, that the chamber was cleaned before the first test began. Correct? 20 couple of steps. As I understand it, after you 21 have the pump calibrated -- 19 A. 20 Q. 21 Yes. Do you recall how long before the test began the chamber was cleaned? 22 A. 23 Q. 24 Yes. -- you then pull air for about 20 minutes through a fi Iter. Correct? 22 A. Well, immediately before, when we did the air 25 A. Yeah. A background filter. 23 purge, as it says in there. 24 Q. 25 So in terms of the sequence 'here, you or one of your team uses the water bottle and the Chem-Wipes 1 Dr. Dement 2 PAGE 38 1 Dr. Dement PAGE 35 3 Q. 4 A. And was that filter sent off for testing? Yeah. They're in there. The results are in the 2 5 report. 3 to clean out the chamber before the air purging 4 begins? 6 Q. 7 I just want to make sure that I know which is which. And if you would look back to Page 3 -- 5 A. That is right. 8 A. Right. 6 Q. 7 A. 8 Q. 9 Do you recall who did the cleaning? I think Courtney did most of the cleaning, too. How long did it take her? Do you know? To do all the cleaning? 9 Q. 10 A. 11 Q. 12 -- of Exhibit No. 2 -- Right. -- would you tell me which of the background samples is the one that was done before any testing 10 A. 11 Q. 15 or 20 minutes. Was the water bottle cleaned before it was put into 13 14 A. at all was performed? Well, each one, before each test a background 12 the chamber? 15 sample was collected. So, three, five and seven 13 A. Yes. 16 are all background filters. 14 Q. And how about the Chem-Wipes? 17 Q. I understand that, from looking at the report. 15 A. They were a brand-new box of Chem-Wipes. 18 What I'm trying to find out is, which is the first 16 Q. And how about the ring stand? 19 one? 17 A. They were washed before they were put in. 20 A. Oh, the sequence is just as the numbers are. 18 Q. With water? 21 Q. So what is listed as Sample No. 3 would be the 19 A. Yes. 22 background that was done before any testing at all 20 Q. Nothing else? 23 occurred? 21 A. That is correct. 24 A. Yeah. Yeah. The sequence is exactly as the test 22 Q. Was the tubing that was inside the chamber wiped 25 was done. And we tried -- as it says, we actually 23 down as well? 24 A. It was. And it was wiped down after each of. the 1 Dr. Dement PAGE 39 25 tests. 2 3 put a non-asbestos rod in between the tests as 1 Dr. Dement PAGE 36 4 another check. 2 3 Q. 4 How much air did you pull through the chamber before you began the testing? 5 Q. 6 7 Now, when that background sample is taken, as I understand your testimony, you closed that up, covered it up with duct tape? 5 A. I think -- I forget the volume through this house 8 A. Yeah. The filter has a cap. It comes as a unit. 6 port. But we could achieve about -- we purged for 9 And it has a top that you put on. We also tape up 7 25 minutes. And I think we were achieving around 10 that to make sure it's perfectly sealed and that 8 four air changes a minute in there. So, we had a 11 the top can't fall off. 9 lot of air changes. 12 MR. JACOBS: Object to the form of the word 10 Q. I thought I read somewhere that when you were doing 13 "that." 1211 the testing, you were pulling air at 12 liters a 14 minute. 15 13 A. Yeah. We're talking about the purging before the 16 (THEREUPON, THERE WAS AN OFF-THERECORD DISCUSSION WHICH WAS NOT RECORDED BY THE COURT REPORTER.) 14 test. 17 0. I apologize if I asked you this earlier. But, are 15 Q. I understand. What I want to know is, whether the 18 there any other -- just so we're clear, I 'm handing 16 17 18 A. purging that was done was pulling air at a greater or lesser rate than during the test? It was pulling at a greater rate. The purging 2019 you -- just so w e 're clear, the questions that I have been asking -- and I apologize if I have not 21 been clear. The questions I have been asking have 19 wasn't being done during the test. That was shut 22 to do with the background check that involved 20 off. 23 Sample No. 3 only. Did you understand that, 21 Q. Now, what is the next thing that was done after the 24 Doctor? 22 purging of the chamber? 25 A. Well, that's fine. It's the same procedure for 23 A. Well, the first thing you do is, you have to make 24 sure of your air flow calibration to the filter, as 1 Dr. Dement PAGE 40 25 the report says. That was done using what is 2 COURT REPORTING SERVICES (919) 832-4114 PAGE PAGESAVER DEPOSITION OF JOHN DEMENT. 3 each one of the background samples. 4 Q. Excellent. The cover that you have described for 5 the filter, is that a solid cover, no opening? 6 A. It's the cover that comes with the filter itself. 7 It's a solid cover. It does have a little plug in 8 the end that you can use it, or do what is called 9 open-face or closed-face sampling. But it's the 10 plug that -- it's a solid cover. 11 Q. 12 Was the testing that was done here in all instances open-face of closed-face? 13 A. It was done with the sampling device as would be 14 used for asbestos, that it was open-face but with 15 the -- what is called the cone front. There is 16 just a cone in front of it. 17 Q. So as I understand it, then, the entire cover 18 including the plug was off the filter cassette 19 during the testing? 20 A. That is correct, as you would typically do for 21 asbestos. Yes. 22 Q. And when -- going back to Sample 3 now, when you 23 were finished pulling the background air that 24 cover, including the plug, would be put back on the 25 filter cassette and taped. PH.D.. M A R C H 12, 1996 working with Ness Motley. Do you recall specifically who it was that sent them to you? No. Do you recall when they were sent to you? Prior to this. Obviously prior to this test. Even I could figure that much out. Do you have any idea when, prior to the test, they were sent to you? A. This particular study was done after the first of the year. I think we would have had sort of had a few rods sent here and there, not all in one batch, between -- in the fall of 1994. Is it the case that you or your colleagues sent rods here or there? I 'm not following you. I'm trying to use your words. Doctor. And I understood you to say that rods were sent here or there. And I'm trying to -- We received them. So is it correct, then, that you received rods at Dr. Dement PAGE 44 1 Dr. 2 3 A. 4 Q. 5 A. 6 0. 7 8 A. 11190 12 13 0. 14 15 16 17 18 19 2210 22 23 24 25 Dement PAGE 41 That is correct. Okay. Is all that done by using the hand ports? That is correct. So that once the side ports on the chamber are sealed, they stay sealed? For any one -- any particular series, after the materials are placed in the chamber, the side port is sealed. It's not opened up again until the study is done. And then, you would have to go through the process again for the next sample. All right. I think I'm getting the picture. Before you begin the first testing, then, is it correct that you would have two filter cassettes in the chamber? That is correct. They would be in the chamber, and sealed. One would be for background, and one would be for the test itself? That is correct. When the background air is being pulled through the first filter cassette -- Yes. -- is the lid off the second filter cassette that different times? Yes. We did. And on each occasion, when you received rods, did those rods come from the same source? Except for the used rods, they all came from the same source. As I understand it, the testing that you did was on rods which are described as being Hobart rods. They were described to us as that. Yes. There were rods that were described as being Westinghouse rods. Yes. And then there were rods which apparently had been used for welding purposes, then sent to you. Correct? That's right. And do you know the alleged manufacturer of those rods? No. I do not. For purposes of our discussion, is it agreeable to you that I refer to these as the Hobart rods, the Westinghouse rods and the used rods, or burned rods? Dr. Dement PAGE 45 1 Dr. 2 3 4 A. 5 Q. 6 7 8 A. 11190 Q. 12 13 14 A. 15 Q. 16 17 A. 18 19 20 21 Q. 22 23 24 A. 25 Q. Dement PAGE 42 is in the chamber? No. It's -- they go in series. And I take it that the second filter cassette is then placed on the small ring stand by using the arm ports? That is correct. Doctor, let me ask you some questions about the rods themselves here before we go any further with the testing itself. As I understand what you did here, you tested three sets of rods. Is that correct? That is correct. How many total rods were sent to you or delivered to you in some way for this testing? We had sent some rods out for analysis. I can't tell you how many there were. Looking for just the presence or absence of asbestos. I can't tell you how many there were. Well, let's back up a step, then. At some point in time, you or your colleagues come into possession of some welding rods. Is that right? That is correct. Can you tell me how you got the rods? Where did A. Yes. Q. With respect to the Hobart rods, can you be any more particular in terms of when you received those rods? A. No. 0. Do you have any idea how many of those rods you received? A. At least two. But I can't tell you any more than that. Q. Did you receive Hobart rods on more than one occasion? A. I really can't tell you. We were receiving some materials at different time periods. And I can't tell you. Q. When you say "receiving materials," what do you mean? A. Rods. Q. Materials -- A. Welding rods. Q. At any time, have you receive welding rods other than the Hobart rods, the Westinghouse rods, or the burned rods about which we have already spoken? A. I can't tell you all the manufacturers of the rods Dr. Dement PAGE 46 1 Dr. Dement PAGE 43 2 3 they come from? 4 A. They were sent to us by Ness Motley, or somebody that we looked at. Q. I take it from your answer, then, that you at some time have in fact received rods other than the Hobart, the Westinghouse, or the burned rods. COURT REPORTING SERVICES (919) 832-4114 PAGE 7 PAGESAVER DEPOSI T I O N OF J O H N DEMENT. PH.D.. M A R C H 12. 1996 7 8 A. 9 Q. 10 A. 11 12 MR. JACOBS: Objection to the form. I can't tell you. You don't recall? I just don't recall. I really wasn't paying a whole lot of attention to whose rods they were, frankly. 9 Q. 10 11 A. 12 Q. 13 14 I take it you did not perform any test of the rods to see whether they would, in fact, weld? We didn't weld with the rods. No. Would you describe for me, please, any transmittal documents that accompanied the rods when they came to you? 13 Q. 14 A. 15 Q. 16 17 A. 18 Q. 19 A. 20 21 22 Q. 23 24 Do you still have any rods from any source? No. What did you do with the rods when you were finished with them? They were shipped back. Back to who? I think we shipped -- as I recall, these rods were all sent back to Ness Motley. That's my recollection of the deposition of the rods. Other than having received at least two Hobart rods, you don't recall when you came into possession of those. Correct? 15 A. 16 Q. 17 A. 18 Q. 19 20 21 A. 22 Q23 A. 24 Q. 25 A. Simply just a listing of identification was all. Was there a cover letter from somebody? Not that I recall. Had you spoken with someone on the phone about receiving these rods, or talked to someone in person about getting the rods? Just Cheryl Ingram, was the person I talked with. And who is Cheryl Ingram? She is an attorney with Ness Motley. Did she send the rods to you? Somebody who was working with her. I'm not sure 25 A. Other than the tin frame we have mentioned, in the 1 Dr. Dement PAGE 47 1 Dr. Dement 2 3 that Cheryl herself did. PAGE 50 2 3 fall of 1994. 4 And to your knowledge, there was no cover letter 5 from anyone that accompanied the rods? 4 Q. 5 6 A. Did you do any testing on the Hobart rods other than what you have described in this report? No. 6 Not to my knowledge. 7 So the rods show up and with the rods is a list. 8 Is that right? 7 Q. 8 How is it that you come by the notion that there were, in fact, rods manufactured by Hobart Brothers 9 A. 10 Q. Identification list. Yes. Were the Hobart rods accompanied by any other rods 9 Company? 11 when they came to you? 10 A. That is what the information that I received said. 12 A. I couldn't tell you. We received in some cases 11 Q. How did that information come to you? 13 more than one type of rod. They were individually 12 A. Just a listing with a number, a batch number. 14 packaged. They weren't in the same container. 13 Q. Do you know who prepared the listing? 15 Q. Describe for me the packaging, please. 14 A. No. I don't. 16 A. Usually it's a ziplock bag. 15 Q. Was that listing sent to you with the rods? 17 Q. So you would receive from Ness Motley at least one 16 A. It would have been with the rods, just listing the 18 ziplock bag. And in that bag, or one of the bags, 17 18 Q. batch numbers. Yes. And do you have any idea who assigned the batch 19 20 A. are a quantity of Hobart rods. Yes. Is that correct? 19 20 A. number to the Hobart rods? No. I don't. 21 Q. 22 And is there something in the bag or on the bag that tells you that these are the Hobart rods? 21 Q. 22 23 24 A. Do you have any information about the source of these rods other than this list that you have described? No. These were rods that were sent to us to take a 23 A. 24 25 Q. Just the sample identification number on the sheet that was sent. A sample identification number and what? 25 look at. And I frankly didn't try to find the Dr. Dement PAGE 51 1 Dr. 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 190 11 A. 12 13 14 15 Q. 16 17 18 19 20 A. 21 22 Q. 23 24 25 A. Dement PAGE 48 source, and I really didn't care about the source. I take it that you don't have any idea how old the Hobart rods were? No. I do not. Would it be fair to say that you don't have any idea how old any of these rods were? And when I say "any," I mean the Westinghouse and the burned rods as well. I don't know the age of the rods, no. And, you know, obviously the application of asbestos stopped at some point in time. So you assume it was before then. Fair enough. I take it, from what you said, that you have no idea of the history of any of these rods such as where they had been before they came into the possession of Ne ss`Motley, and before they came to you? I can't testify to any of that. I was simply sent rods to do some experiments with. Do you have any idea, with respect to whether these rods were in a condition where one could actually make a successful weld with them? Well, from my looking at them, they were certainly A. Q. A. Q. 8 A. 9 Q. 10 A. 11 Q. 12 13 A. 14 15 16 17 Q. 18 19 20 21 A. 22 Q. 23 A. 24 25 Q. And the sheet identifying the rod. Is the sample identification number on the rods themselves? Or on the bag? It was on the bag. Inside or outside? The outside of the bag. Do you know how it was affixed to the bags? I think it was just a stick-on label. And did the label contain any information other than a number? I don't recall whether or not it had the name -- it certainly had a number. I can't recall whether or not it had the name Hobart or Westinghouse on it or not. And then you have asheet of paper, as Iunderstand it, that sayssomethingon it that tells you that a particular sample is a Hobart or is supposed to be a Hobart rod. Yes. That's right? Is that just one sheet of paper? Well, I 'm sure we had more than one sheet, because they were sent at different times. When the Westinghouse rods came to you, were they Dr. Dement PAGE 52 Dr. Dement PAGE 49 A. intact. Q. Q. When you say "intact," does that mean -- please A. tell me what that means. Q. A. Well, the coatings on the rods weren't damaged. It looked like, from my inspection of the rods, they A. could have been used for welding. Q. COURT REPORTING SERVICES packaged the same way? To my knowledge, yes. Same identification process? Same process. Yes. And a piece of paper that said Sample No. it was are Westinghouse rods. Correct? That is correct. Where are the identification papers now? (919) 832-4114 whatever PAGE PAGESAVER DEPOSITION OF JOHN DEMENT. 11 A. 1 really can't tell you whether or not they were 13 12 sent back with the materials, or whether or not we 14 13 have them in our files. I haven't looked for them. 15 14 Q. Do you have files pertaining to this project that 16 15 you have not produced? 17 16 A. No. This project is pretty much self-contained. I 18 17 mean, this is the report and my results. 19 18 0- I don't recollect that you produced for us. Doctor, 20 19 anything in the way of an identification list from 21 20 your source indicating which rods were supposed to 22 21 be in which batch. Have I missed something? Or is 23 22 that!piece of paper in these reports? 24 23 A. I don't recall whether or not we stuck that in here 25 24 or not. I don't think it's attached to our report. 25 Q. Let me ask you to do this, please. I think when we PH.D.. M A R C H 12. 1996 would test? A. I think primarily we needed two asbestos-containing rods at the sametime. 0- I'm not sure I understand that. When you say "asbestos-containing rods at the same time," what does that mean? A. Well, if you're going to bump two rods together, you want to make sure they're atleast the same manufacturer. Q. Well, and as I understand it, the Hobart rods that you bumped together were the same kind, at least, as you understand it? A. They were identified to us as the same kind. Yes. Dr. Dement PAGE 56 1 Dr. 2 3 4 5 6 A. 7 8 9 0. 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 A. 19 20 21 22 23 Q. 24 25 Dement PAGE 53 set up this deposition some months back, we did serve a Duces Tecum, which would have covered all of your file materials pertaining to this project. No, sir, you did not. This project was part of a consulting study. And I don't think you asked for any of that. Well, I think that the Duces Tecum that we served on counsel specifically covered any material that related to testing that you might have done. And without arguing with you about it, let me ask you if you will please go back and review your files to determine whether there is any paperwork of any kind that pertains to this project that hasn't been produced to us, and whether you will produce that paperwork. I will say for the record, 1will go back and see if 1 have the numbers for the specific rods that were tested in part of this report. The other part of what we did is part of the consulting project, and I will not divulge any of that material. Without getting into the details of that consulting project, will you tellme wtiat thenature ofthat project was? Why is it that you chose the Hobart rods rather than some other rod that you had? I think that was -- I don't remember all the details. But it seems like that was the only two that we had that were rods of the same kind that had asbestos in them. 0. Do you remember the names of the other manufacturers, at least as reported to you, of rods that you had? No, other than Hobart and Westinghouse. Let me ask you to do this, Doctor. Without waiving my right, the belief that I have the right to -- MR. JACOBS: I object to this. Q. -- to examine any of the material that you have that pertains to welding rod testing, I would like you to produce, please, any paperwork of. any kind or other data that you may have in whatever form that pertains to the three rods that you tested as described in these two reports. I will go back in my files and find out if I have anything with regards to those. Q. And can you give us a timeframe within which we may expect to hear from you regarding the results of Dr. Dement PAGE 57 Dr. Dement PAGE 54 A. It was just receiving rods and have them looked at for asbestos. But that was not part of this report. Only three rods are part of this report. And I'm not going to divulge that at this point. Well, what did you do with rods that you received that weren't tested? They were looked at for asbestos, really. And we didn't test them. They were sent back. You or your staff, your team looked at them? No. We sent them outside. We sent some material outside to have it looked at for asbestos. When you say "material," do you mean rods? Coatings of rods. So it wasn't actually rods themselves that were sent, but rather -- Some coatings that we scraped off the outside. And where were those sent? NAS, I think it was, probably. Who is NAS? Is there a person particularly associated with that? Well, Bill Longo is the president of NAS. Well, did you get reports back on those? I'm sure we had some reports back. your search? A few days. Let's take five. (BRIEF RECESS) Doctor, do you know who affixed the sample number labels to the plastic bags that had the rods in them? No. I do not. Do you know whose sample numbers these were? In other words, who assigned the sample numbers to a particular group of rods? A. No. Ness Motley was working with a number of different groups on this project. And I can't tell you who the person who sampled -- who attached the numbers to the bags. Do you know which groups they were working with? No. I mean, probably if you gave me a name of somebody, I might recognize it. But my primary contact was with Cheryl Ingram. Would it be accurate to say. Doctor, that you have no way of knowing whether what were described to you as Hobart rods were in fact manufactured by Hobart Brothers? Dr. Dement PAGE 58 1 Dr. Dement PAGE 55 A. 2 3 Q. Did those reports indicate that there was asbestos 4 in those rods? 5 A. Some did, some didn't. 6 0- Was there any particular reason why you did not 7 test any of those rods? 8 A. Well, we chose the rods to test. 9 Q. I beg your pardon? 10 A. We chose a few rods to test based on the fact they 11 had asbestos or didn't have asbestos in them. 12 Q. How did you make the decision on which rods you COURT REPORTING SERVICES No. 1 had to rely on materials that were provided to me. Would the same be true with respect to the Westinghouse rods? All of the rods. I mean, they were sent to me, and I had to accept what was sent to me. All right. You have described the rods as being in plastic bags. I presume the plastic bags were in some sort of container when they were sent to you? Yeah. Probably a Fed-Ex box. They weren't hand-carried to you, I take it? No. They were sent, usually by Fed-Ex or one of (919) 832-4114 PAGE PAGESAVER________ DEPOSITION OF JOHN DEMENT. P H . D . . M A R C H 12. 1996 15 16 Q. 17 18 A. 19 Q. 20 21 A. 22 Q. 23 A. the air carriers. So your best recollection is that it came to you by one of the express carriers? Yes. When you received the Hobart rods and the Westinghouse rods, did you examine the bags? Yes. I did. And were the bags intact? Yes. 17 Q. 18 19 A. 20 Q. 21 22 A. 23 Q. 24 25 A. I assume there was a charge associated with the work that you didhere? Yeah. Duke, my employer, billed them. Do you have any idea what the bill was when the total testing.that was done? I don't know. I don't recall. And it's your impression, I take it, that the bill was paid? As far as I know. 24 Q. Anything in the bags, other than the rods? 25 A. No. Just rods. 1 Dr. Dement PAGE 62 2 1 Dr. Dement 2 PAGE 59 3 Q. 4 Where would we go if we wanted to find any of the billing records? 3 Q. 4 A. 5 No residue in the bags? I didn't really -- I didn't sample inside the bags for residue. 5 A. 6 7 I guess I'd have to go back to Duke billing. And I assume they could specifically pull out the bill, but I couldn't tell you. 6 Q. As I understand it, you returned the rods in 8 Q. Are you on salary at Duke, or were you at the time 7 question from your testing to Ness Motley. 9 of these experiments? 8 A. I believe they have all been returned, to the best 10 A. Yes. 9 of my knowledge. And I'll look at that, too, and 11 Q. Did you receive any portion of the proceeds that 10 make sure that's the case. 12 were sent to Duke for this testing? 11 Q. And just so I am clear, that would include the rods 13 A. No. I receive a salary. Duke billed for the time 12 from which flux material was broken? 14 and the expense. 13 A. Yeah. 15 Q. Is your compensation in any way based upon the 14 Q. The test that is outlined in Exhibit No. 1 -- 16 amount of consulting work that you do during a 15 A. Yes. 17 given period of time? 16 Q. -- is residue test, correct, rather than an air 18 A. No. I am salaried. I am a salaried employee. We 17 test? Air sampling test? 19 all -- at the end of the year, if we happen to be 18 A. You're talking about Attachment -- 20 in the black, we might get a small bonus at the end 19 MR. JACOBS: Exhibit No. 1 is the other. 21 of the year. 20 A. Oh. Is that Exhibit No. 1? 22 Q. Did you receive a 1995 bonus? 21 MR. JACOBS: This is Exhibit No. 1. You were 23 A. Yeah. 22 looking at Exhibit No. 2 up until now. Exhibit No. 24 Q. As part of your employment relationship with Duke, 23 1 is labelled as your March 26, 1996, letter. 25 are you expected to generate a certain number of 24 Q. (By Mr. Davies) That's my fault, Doctor. I 25_____ inadvertently got them mixed around when we put 1 Dr. Dement PAGE 63 - 2 1 Dr. Dement PAGE 60 3 dollars in research grants or consulting work per 2 4 year? 3 Exhibit No. 1 and Exhibit No. 2 on. So Exhibit No. 5 A. You know, we're like any other faculty, you know. 4 1 is later in time than Exhibit No. 2. 6 We don't live here for free. And if you don't 5 A. Yeah. This was analysis of some residues after the 7 support yourself and the people working with you by 6 study with the used rods. 8 consulting, by research grants, teaching, you don't 7 Q. Was any of that residue returned to Ness Motley? 9 stay at any university for very long. 8 A. No. I think we -- all of that went to the 10 Q. I understand that. Now, my question to you is, are 9 laboratory, the material that we could collect out 11 you expected to generate a certain number of 10 of the bottom of the chamber. 12 dollars per year? 11 Q. And when you say "went to the laboratory," you are 13 A. No. 12 referring to Dr. Longo's laboratory? 14 Q. Or a certain percentage over and above your gross 13 A. 14 Q. Yes. Now, it's my understanding that you had some , 15 16 A. salary? Oh, no. 15 discussions with one or more people at Ness Motley 17 Q. Is there any formula that is in place, to your 16 before you began this testing. Is that correct? 18 knowledge, or was in place at the time of this 17 A. Yeah. We had some discussions. Sure. 19 testing, that pertains to the amount of money you 18 Q. And did those discussions include what it was that 20 are expected to generate per year? 19 you were going to do with the rods? 21 A. No. There is no requirement that you be 20 A. Well, I guess it was just a general outline of what 22 productive. You can be productive in other ways. 21 we would do. 23 Q. Is there any type of-incentive program at the 22 Q. Did you tell them what you were going to do, or did 24 university, other than this bonus that you have 23 they tell you what to do? 25 described? 24 A. I was simply asked to design a small experiment to 25 evaluate whether or not welding rods contained 1 Dr. Dement PAGE 64 -- 2 1 Dr. Dement PAGE 61 3 A. Each department and division is pretty much 2 4 different. But within our division, you know, we 3 4 Q. asbestos fibers. They asked you to do that? 5 have -- we all consult. And it goes into a pool 6 and it pays expenses and hopefully, we'll be in the 5 A. That is correct. 7 black at the end of the year. 6 Q. Is that the sum and substance of the discussions 8 Q. Doctor, before you began your testing of what has 7 that you had with them prior to your doing the 9 been described as the Hobart rods, did you check 8 9 A. testing? Well, I gave some thought as to how that would 10 11 A. the rods for surface contamination of any kind? They were tested for asbestos content. I don't 10 occur, and then had a discussion with them about 12 know how you would actually test a rod for surface 11 12 13 Q. basically this protocol, that this was how we were going to do it. And did they have any input with respect to the 13 14 Q. 15 contamination, since it already has asbestos in it. Is the answer to my question, then, "no," you did not test for surface contamination of any kind? 14 protocol? .1 16 A. No. We didn't test. In fact, I don't know how you 15 A. No. I was primarily apprising them of what we were 17 would -- given an asbestos-containing material, I 16 going to do. 18 don't know how you would sample and say that it was COURT REPORTING SERVICES (919) 832-4114 PAGE 10 PAGESAVER DEPOS I T I O N OF JOHN DEMENT. PH.D., M A R C H 12. 1996 19 this material versus the rod. Is that correct? 20 0- Is that the case as well with respect to the Yes. 21 Westinghouse rods and the burned rods? MR. JACOBS: Do you know what page that is? 22 A. Yeah. With the Westinghouse rod, we found in our THE WITNESS: That's Page 8. 23 analysis, as 1 recall, had no asbestos in it. And 24 so, we sampled the whole material. Q. How did Dr. Millette ship the rods which are the 25 Q. With respect to the burned rods, is it the case Dr. Dement PAGE 68 1 Dr. 2 3 4 5 A. 6 7 0. 8 9 10 11 A. 12 13 Q. 14 15 16 17 A. 18 19 20 Q. 21 22 A. 23 24 25 Dement PAGE 65 that you did not test for surface contamination of any kind? That is correct. We -- for the same reasons we couldn't do it with the asbestos-containing rods. Did any of the testing that was done by you or by the laboratory to which you sent material confirm that sodium silicate had been used as the binder in these rods? No. I don't think we really looked at that. We were analyzing for asbestos. My memory of a discussion that you and 1 had back on January 3 is that you agreed that generally, it is sodium silicate that was used as the binder in these types of rods. Is that correct? Yes. It's my understanding, again, based on review of the literature, primarily. It's like a water glass. And I think we agreed at least to some extent that sodium silicate serves as an encapsulant. Well, I think we -- encapsulant, I think we disagreed on the terminology, as I recall. It's the binder material that sort of holds it together, yes. subject of his December 6, 1994 letter to you? Probably they also came in a ziplock bag, shipped. And was there any type of sample number on those rods? Just the numbers designated here, his numbers. And when you say "his numbers," to which document are you referring? Well, he refers to his sample ID number on the second page. Is that the page that we have marked 9? Yes. I see in the -- on the bottom right of that page, "that" being No. 9, the date December 27, 1993. Do you agree with that? Yes, sir. And this purports to be a polarized light microscopy asbestos analysis. Is that right? Yeah. This particular analysis is by PLM. And was there any other documentation that accompanied these three burned rods? No, sir. In Dr. Millette's letter he discusses a controlled experiment. Do you have any idea what was involved Dr. Dement PAGE 69 1 Dr. 2 3 0. 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 A. 11 12 13 14 15 Q. 16 17 18 19 A. 20 21 Q. 22 23 24 25 A. Dement PAGE 66 Well, I think you and 1 can disagree on the extent to which it encapsulates. But can we agree that at least to some extent, in the binding process, it encapsulates not only the asbestos but whatever other ingredients may have been in the flux of the rod? MR. JACOBS: Objection as to form. Well, it certainly -- it flows around the asbestos material. I think my testimony before is, I don't think it does it completely. It's sort of like other products that are made with binders that hold them together. If I recall your earlier testimony, you did agree with me that, at least to some extent, the sodium silicate would wet the asbestos. Correct? MR. JACOBS: Objection as to form. It would some -- at least in some ways, make its way to the structure. Yes. Did you hAve any discussions with anyone at Ness Motley regarding the results of the testing that you did, or the results of the testing that Dr. Longo did? I read the report and sent it to them. I frankly in that? No. And you have seen no reports regarding that experiment? No. I have seen no reports. And just so I'm clear, I take it you don't know whether Dr. Millette or any of his people burned the rods? I couldn't tell you. And again, you have no idea where they came from or what their history was? No. They were sent to me as usual with the data here. How much of these rods had been burned? Well, I don't recall. I think the material that we had was about six or seven inches long left. Were all three burned approximately the same amount? As I recall, yes. Was there any residue in the bag that you recall? Not that I recall. Again, I'll have to say, I didn't sample inside the bag the visible material. Visible material, you don't recall? Dr. Dement PAGE 70 1 Dr. Dement PAGE 67 A. 2 Q. 3 don't -- I don't remember any discussion 4 afterwards. A. 5 Q. Was there any communication or correspondence 6 between you and that firm, other than your 7 transmitting reports to them? 8 A. No. Let me back up. Not on these tests. Q. 9 Obviously, we have been looking at welding rods to 10 gather materials for a number of -- probably for a A. number of years, really. I have had a file on 12 welding rods. I think I may have sent them copies Q. 13 of some of the documents that you had listed here 14 15 0- last time, inreference to the last time. The documents you're referring to are the articles 16 that were on the list that you prepared? 17 A. That is correct. A. 18 Q. There is a letter in Exhibit No. 2 which suggests 19 that the burned rods came to you from Dr. Millette. 20 A. Yes. They did. Q. COURT REPORTING SERVICES No. Have you had any discussions with Dr. Millette about any of the testing that you did? No. I have not. I know Dr. Millette, and 1 think we had a discussion that he was going to send his material before. But I don't know about his experiment. Did you relay the results of your experiment to him? No. I haven't sent it to anybody besides the client for which I was working. Well, what I'm trying to understand is, the circumstances by which these rods appear from Dr. Millette -- you test them and send your results not to Dr. Millette, but to Ness Motley. Could you describe that for me? No. I couldn't. You'd have to ask Ness Motley, I suppose, whether or not they have some relationship with Dr. Millette. I can't tell you.Who instructed you to send the results of this (919) 832-4114 PAGE 11 PAG E S A V E R ________ D E P O S I T I O N O F J O H N DEMENT. P H . D . . M A R C H 1 2 . 1 9 9 6 23 24 A. testing on the burned rods to Ness Motley? I was working with Cheryl Ingram. And that's the 25 That's all. 25 person that was my contact with the client. 1 Dr. Dement PAGE 74 1 Or. 2 3 Q. 4 5 6 A. 7 Q. Dement Is it correct that all of the sampling you during the rod testing was conducted at 12 per minute? Yes. It was. Why was 12 liters per minute chosen? PAGE 71 did liters 2 3 Q. 4 5 A. 6 Q. 7 A. 8 9 And of course, the pump isrunning and air is being pulled during that 15 minutes,correct? Yes. It is. The fan is not on during that initial 15 minutes? No. The fan was turned on after sort of the last five minutes of the sample, after the bumping and rubbing was complete. 8 A. 9 10 Well, we knew we had a short-term experiment. And we tried to sample as much air volume as we could in the time period. It's also consistent with some 10 Q. 11 12 My understanding is that at the conclusion of the 15-minute period of bumping and rubbing, the test is not stopped -- 11 12 13 14 Q. of the sampling that's used, for example, by the EPA in some of its clearance sampling, and uses a higher volume. If one were doing individual air sampling involving 13 A. No. 14 Q. -- and a filter removed at that point? 15 A. No. It's the same filter. 16 Q. So we have 15 minutes of rubbing and bumping. The 15 a cassette on a worker's lapel, what would be the 16 air flow? 17 rubbing and bumping stops, the fan is turned on for 18 five minutes -- 17 A. It can range up toaround three to -- well, two to 19 A. That's right. 18 five liters a minute. Itslimitation is primarily 20 Q. Is that correct? Are the rods simply put back on 19 the battery-operated pump thathangs on the belt. 21 the bottom of the chamber during that five-minute 20 Q. Let's talk for a few minutes about the Hobart rods 22 period? 21 that were tested. 23 A. Yes. They are. 22 MR. JACOBS: Back on Exhibit No. 1 now? 24 Q. At the end of five minutes, the fan is turned off. 23 MR. DAVIES: Exhibit No. 2. 25 Correct? 24 Q. Looking again at Page 3 of Exhibit No. 2 -- 25 A. Yes. 1 Dr. Dement PAGE 75 2 1 Dr. Dement PAGE 72 3 A. That is correct. 2 4 Q. And then it seems to me I read somewhere that the 3 Q. -- the cassette in question here would have 5 sampling continues for another 10 minutes. 4 identification number 4. Is that right? 6 A. Yeah. The entire sampling period, we tried to 5 A. Yeah, the filter itself. Yes. 7 total a half hour or 30 minutes. 6 Q. And just to take care of some housekeeping here, 8 Q. Was there any particular reason why 30 minutes was 7 would you look at Page 12 of that same report? 9 chosen as the sampling time? 8 A. Yes. 10 A. Well, again, looking at the flow rates in the time 9 Q. 10 As I understand it, this is a summary sheet that came back to you from Dr. Longo's laboratory. Is 11 period, the idea was to get sufficient volume to 12 have a reasonable detection limit. And also, by 11 that right? 13 the time you run this sample, you -- for 15 minutes 12 A. That is correct. 14 after the close of the experiment, you would have 13 Q. And he has client numbers 3 through 10 listed on 15 had a number of air changes in the chamber. 14 that report. Correct? 16 So you would expect that, after a period of 15 A. Yes. 17 time, that you would have evacuated the chamber a 16 Q. And is it your understanding that those numbers on 18 number of times, and- the concentration would drop. 17 Page 12 match up with your numbers on Page 3? 19 Q. At 12 liters per minute, do you have any idea how 18 A. Yes, sir. They do. 20 many air changes, complete air changes, would occur 19 Q. Did you give any instructions to Courtney Smith as 21 within that chamber in 30 minutes? 20 to the manner in which she was to bump and rub 22 A. We did look at that. I don't remember the number. 21 these rods together inside the test chamber? 23 It would have been a few air changes. 22 A. Well, this is not -- wasn't intended to be a 24 Q. What is your range of "few"? 23 destructive test, simply for a period of about 15 25 A. I don't recall the number. We calculated the 24 minutes to rub the rods together with -- you know, 25 with a little bit of pressure, but not to a point 1 Dr. Dement PAGE 76 2 1 Dr. Dement PAGE 73 3 volume of the chamber and the flow rate, and we 2 4 knew that we were getting some air -- a fair number 3 of trying to destroy the rod. 5 of air changes. 4 Q. And what about the pumping? How was that? 6 Q. To the best of your knowledge, are there any 5 A. Just tapping, not to a point, again, of trying to 7 government regulations that pertain to sampling for 6 actually break off material, but just gently 8 asbestos that call out a 30-minute sampling period? 7 tapping together. 9 A. Well, if you're going to sample for -- if you were 8 Q. 9 10 Well, during this 15-minute period when she was bumping and rubbing the two Hobart rods, did any of the flux material fall to the bottom of the 1110 to sample, for example, for the OSHA short-term exposure limit, you could use a sample period of 12 that time. 11 chamber? 13 Q. Is that spelled out in the regulations? 12 A. I don't think we saw -- and we didn't collect 14 A. Yeah. Usually 15 to 30 minutes is determined 13 samples, as I recall, of flux material in the 15 short-term exposure limit. But we weren't trying 14 bottom of the chamber that we could see with our 16 to sample against OSHA standards. 15 eye. 17 Q. You mentioned OSHA standards. Let me just ask a 16 Q. Why was 15 minutes chosen as the period for the 18 couple of questions about that as it pertains to 17 bumping and rubbing? 19 this testing that you did. You mentioned short 18 A. It's as long as anybody can bump and rub. 20 term exposure limit. 19 Q. 20 21 A. 22 Well, if you think I 'm touching that one, you are sorely mistaken. Well, it's chosen just as a period of time which we felt that if we were to get enough material off the 21 A. 22 Q. 23 A. 24 Yes. How is that defined under OSHA? Well, it's a concentration. And I think OSHA uses a 15-minute period of time that the concentration 23 rod to sample, that given a flow rate, we should be 25 is not to exceed in any 15 minutes during the whole 24 able to at least have a reasonable detection level. 1 Dr. Dement PAGE 77 COURT REPORTING SERVICES (919) 832-4114 PAGE 12 PAGESAVER D EPOSITION OF JOHN ;DEMENT. 2 4 3 time. 5 4 Is there a current STEL for asbestos? 6 5 Yeah. Yeah. It's one fiber per cc by the phase 7 6 contrast method. 8 7 How long has that one fiber per cc STEL been in 9 8 effect? 10 11109 Well, the original OSHA standard in 1986 didn't 11 have a STEL. They were sued by, I think, one of 12 the unions to put in place a STEL. And I think 13 12 that came in place around 1987 or 1988. They went 14 13 back' through the rule-making process. 15 14 Q Prior to the setting of the STEL, what was the 16 15 controlling OSHA standard? 17 16 A Well, at the time, it was .2 fibers per cc on an 18 17 eight-hour time-weighted average basis. 19 18 0 When you say "at the time," what time period are we 20 19 talking about? 21 20 A 1986. 22 21 Q And the time-weighted average takes into account an 23 22 exposure period over an eight-hour workday? 24 23 A That is correct. 25 24 Q And was .2 fibers per cc the permissible exposure 25 1imit under OSHA? PH.D.. M A R C H 12. 1996 and while the fan was blowing, were you able to see any particulate moving in the chamber? A. I don't recall that you could, no. Q. How far from the fan was the filter? A. Probably around 18 inches or so. The fan is located in the upper right-hand corner of the chamber, and the sample was down in the bottom right corner. Q. In which direction was the open face of the filter pointed? A. It was pointed inward. Q. Was the filter cassette itself horizontal, or vertical, or -- how would you describe it? A. It was in the horizontal position. Q. After the 30 minutes of air sampling is completed on the Hobart rods, my understanding is that Ms. Smith puts her hands back into the gloves, closes up that filter, and tapes it. A. That is correct. Q. Correct? And she has already got the blank filter A. Which is laying in the bottom of the chamber, Dr. Dement PAGE 81 Dr. Dement PAGE 78 A Q A Q A 8 Q 9 A 10 Q 11 2 13 A. 14 15 16 17 18 19 Q. 20 21 A. 22 23 Q. 24 25 Yes. And that's referred to as a PEL? That is correct. Was there a PEL for asbestos before the .2? Yes. There was. What was that? It was 2 fibers per cc, actually starting in 1976. And what is a -- strike that, please. Is it correct that the PEL contemplates the eight-hour time-weighted average? Well, the -- usually the PEL does. In some cases, depending on the material, they may have shorter than eight hours. It's just OSHA's permissible exposure limit. And then they can define that time period. For example, some materials have acute effects, and they might have a shorter time period. Asbestos is not one of those materials, is it, that has a short-term effect? Well, that's the reason for the ceiling, or for the short-term exposure limit. Okay. But again, just so I understand this, when we talk about the OSHA PEL from 1976 until 1986 being 2 fibers per cc, we are talking about an sealed up. Taped. At that point, then, is the chamber opened? Yeah. The process then is, everything is -- an attempt to wash down, wipe down, materials before you open the chamber. And also, we let it purge after the -- after we stopped the fan. We let it purge, get the air exchange a bit more. Q. Well, let me stop you there. Is it the case that the wipe-down of the water bottle and the ring stand and whatever else may be in the chamber occurs while the chamber is still sealed? A. Yes. It occurs while it's sealed. The objective there is, of course, to not allow anything out into the room. And does the wipe-down of the interior portion of the chamber occur while it is still sealed? Yes. It does. Was anything done to determine the effectiveness of the cleaning that was done? Well, yeah. We collected background samples between studies, which was under control. Beyond that, was anything done? No. The background samples, we thought, were the Dr. Dement PAGE 82 1 Dr. 2 3 4 A. 5 Q. 6 A. 7 8 9 10 Q. 11 A. 12 13 14 15 Q. 16 17 A. 18 19 20 Q. 21 A. 22 Q. 23 24 A. 25 Dement PAGE 79 eight-hour time-weighted average. That is correct. Was there a PEL before 1976? Starting in 1970 -- actually, December of 1971, with the emergency temporary standard, that number was 5 fibers per cc on an eight-hour time-weighted average basis. And how about before 1971? There was no real OSHA standard. For a short period of time, they adopted the 68 threshold limit values, but then they went to the emergency temporary procedure rather immediately. What was the 1968 threshold limit value that OSHA adopted until 1971? Well, it was 2 million particles per cubic foot on 12 fibers per cc. That was part of the original start-up standards. 12 fibers per cc? Yes. Is it correct that Courtney Smith did all of the bumping and rubbing of Hobart rods? She did all the bumping and rubbing of all the rods, to try to control at least one variable. most important. How long did it take to complete the wipe-down of the inside of the chamber and its contents? 15, 20 minutes or so. And after that 15 or 20 minutes, you continued to pull air through? Not the fiIter. Through the filter? Not the sampling filter, but the chamber, yes. And how long did that go on? Probably ran that for another 15 to 20 minutes. And then was the chamber opened. Then the chamber was opened. Let me step back to while the testing is going on. Is the outlet portal of the chamber where the HEPA filter is located closed off? A. Yeah. During the actual sampling that the -- what we call the purging filter, is cut off. It has a damper, or slide, that's cut off. Q- So the only -- during the testing, the only air that is getting out of the chamber is going through the filter cassette? A. That is correct. Dr. Dement PAGE 83 1 Dr. Dement PAGE 80 2 3 Q. After the bumping and rubbing of the Hobart rods Q. Picking up the story where we left off, you have now opened the chamber. A. Yes. COURT REPORTING SERVICES (919) 832-4114 PAGE 13 PAGESAVER DEPOSI T I O N OF JOHN DEMENT. PH.D.. M A R C H 12. 3996 6 Q. 7 A. What is taken out? Well first, of course, is to take out the sample Q. And the chamber is sealed. Correct? A. Yes. 8 9 Q. 10 A. 11 Q. 12 A. 13 and filters. The rods are back in their bag. They have been put back in while it was sealed? Yes. The chamber was sealed? Uh-huh (yes). And then, of course, the bag is wiped down on the outside so that, basically, Q. And you then purge the chamber for a period of 20, 25 minutes? A. Right. Q. Then you set up and draw another blank? A. That is correct. We calibrate the filter again, and do the blank. 14 materials are taken out of the chamber, the rods 15 and the samples themselves. Host of the other 16 material is left in the chamber where they take it Q. And after the blank is drawn, it is -- that cassette is sealed, and you then set up to do the testing on the burned rods. 17 out to the laboratory. That is correct. 18 Q. 19 20 A. So the bag containing the rods that were used in the test is removed? That is correct. And is the bumping and rubbing on the burned rods done in the same fashion as with the earlier two tests? 21 Q. The two filter cassettes are removed? A. Yes, sir. We attempted to try to go through the 22 A. That is correct. same process with each sample. 23 Q. 24 A new bag of rods is put in, and two new filters are put in. Q. And do you recall whether there was any residue on 25 A. That's sort of the process. Yes. Dr. Dement PAGE 87 1 Dr. 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 11190 12 13 14 15 16 17 Q. 18 19 A. 20 Q. 21 22 23 A. 24 Q. 25 Dement PAGE 84 The chamber is then sealed? That is correct. And then one of the filters is put into place to pull air? We would go through another purge cycle after everything is put in place. We would go through another purge cycle for the chamber. Then, after the purge cycle, for 25 minutes or so, we would then do another background sample. Well, back up. You have to go through the calibration process, first. Then you do the background sample, and then you do your bumping and start the process over again. The second test that you performed was on the Westinghouse rods. Correct? Yes. And your understanding, from the test results that you reviewed, is that these rods did not contain asbestos? That is correct. And would you have gone through the same procedure during that test as that which we have already the chamber floor after the burned rods were bumped and rubbed? A. Yes, sir. We did observe residue on the chamber floor. And we did collect a sample of that material. Q. Tell me when in the process that sample was taken. A. It was after the test was done, after all of the background sample, the air sample from the test, the whole process in terms of purging, at least, was done, but before cleaning. Q. So I take it, then, that when the sample was collected from the floor of the chamber, the chamber was still sealed? Yes, sir. It was. Describe for me, please, the process of collecting this residue. Basically, all we did was -- the material had collected in the bottom of the chamber, we took the same bag,.plastic bag with the rods that come in, two to rods that we had originally for the bumping. We collected material from the bottom of the chamber into that sample bag. Q. How -- what did you use to pick up the residue from Dr. Dement PAGE 88 1 Dr. 2 3 4 A. 5 Q. 6 7 8 A. 9 Q. 10 11 12 A. 13 14 15 Q. 16 17 18 A. 19 Q. 20 21 22 A. 23 24 Q. 25 A. Dement PAGE 85 reviewed with respect to the Hobart test? Exactly the same. And was there any residue seen on the bottom of the chamber after the Westinghouse rods had been bumped and rubbed for 15 minutes? Not that I recall, no. When the fan was running with respect to the Westinghouse rods, could you see anything -- any particulate blowing around in the chamber? You couldn't see visible material. The filters themselves found some material. I mean, some residue from the rods. Not visible dust. And is it correct that you concluded the testing of the Westinghouse rods in the same fashion that you have described for the Hobart rods? Yes. Then the entire chamber and contents are purged in -- strike purged. Are cleaned in the same manner that you have already described? Same procedure for wiping down, taking the filters out. And then in come the burned rods. Yes. the bottom of the chamber and get it into the bag? We just scraped it in the glove. So the bag would be held open against the bottom of the chamber -- Exactly. -- and one hand was used to scrape it in? Scrape it in. Any idea of the quantity of the material that you collected? Well, that -- the quantity was reported back to us. We obviously didn't weigh the material ourselves, but we sent it directly to the lab. They then went through a process of extracting. And the weights are in the subject report. Did the lab report back to you on the total weight of all residue that was sent to it? Yeah. I think they used all the material, because it -- to my knowledge, they used all the material that we had. I mean, we tried to collect as much as we could to send to the lab. MR. JACOBS: For clarification, are we talking about the Exhibit No. 1 the test? THE WITNESS: That is correct. Dr. Dement PAGE 89 Dr. Dement PAGE 86 Q. And they're in a plastic bag. A. That is correct. Q. And you have got two more cassettes coming in. Correct? A. Yes. Q. Was the filter cassette in essentially the same position for all three tests? A. Yes, sir. We kept that consistent. That was the reason for having the ring stand in the chamber. Q. With respect to the burned rods, what did you do with the third rod that Dr. Hillette sent you? A. We didn't test it. We didn't have another one to COURT REPORTING SERVICES (919) 832-4114 PAGE 14 PAGESAVER________ DEPOSITION OF JOHN DEMENT. PH.D. . M A R C H 12. 1996 10 bump against it, so we didn't do anything with it. 12 respirable fibers, or less than three, three and a 11 Q. Mas it returned to Ness Motley? 13 half micrometers in diameter, which almost every 12 A. To my knowledge. I mean, I think all the rods were 14 sample you can collect comes short of -- less than 13 returned. 15 that. So, it's not really a it's on the books. 14 0- Now you -- as I understand it, you used the bag 16 But it's not really very practical. 15 that the rods, the burned rods, had been in to 17 Q. Are you familiar with the NI0SH 7400 and 7402 16 collect the residue to send to Dr. Longo. 18 counting methods? 17 A. Yeah. And I think perhaps even those rods were -- 19 A. Yes. 18 the residues were sent to him. 1 mean, the actual 20 Q. Does NIOSH 7402 have aminimum diameter 19 -- the actual rods themselves were in the .bag. 21 measurement? 20 Q. And how were they sent to him? 22 A. A minimum measurement? 21 A. Senl^ by just Federal Express. 23 Q. Yes. 22 Q. Do you have any idea what he did with the rods when 24 A. 7402, you're talking about the electron microscopy 23 he was finished with his testing? 25 method? 24 A. We asked him to look at the residue. We didn't ask 25 him to do anything with the rods themselves. 1 Dr. Dement PAGE 93 2 1 Dr. Dement PAGE 90 3 Q. Yes, sir. 2 4 A. It's based on the resolution of the microscope. 3 Q. If I asked you this earlier, I apologize for 5 That's the minimum counting. 4 repeating myself. Did you ever have any 6 Q. Are you familiar with any standard that indicates, 5 discussions with Dr. Longo or any members of his 7 for counting purposes, a fiber must have a diameter 6 staff regarding the results of his tests? 8 of .25 microns or greater? 7 A. No. I called him and spoke with him before sending 9 A. For purposes of counting fibers? 8 the samples down. But I -- just the reports. 10 Q. Yes. 9 Q. You were kind enough a few minutes ago to tell me 11 A. Not really. You would lose -- you would actually 10 about the PEL and STEL for asbestos. And you 12 lose a lot of asbestos fibers by that, by such 11 mentioned that there was a TLV for asbestos that 13 a -- 12 was in place as early as 1968. Correct? 14 Q. So as far as you are concerned, there is no 13 A. The ACH TLV. Yes. 15 counting method under NIOSH thatsays for counting 14 Q. And TLV means threshold limit value? 16 purposes, a fiber must have adiameter of .25 or 15 A. Yes. 17 greater? 16 Q. And that's a term that is owned by the ACGIH? 18 A. Apparently, NIOSH discusses .25 as being sort of 17 A. Yes, as a registered trademark of ACGIH. 19 their limit of resolution of the phase contrast 18 Q. If you know the TLV values for asbestos from 1968 20 method. And that's the reason for that discussion, 19 forward, could you recite them for me? 21 because you can't see fibers much smaller than that 20 A. Well, they've gone through some changes. The TLV 22 with phase contrast anyway. 21 was dropped to 2 fibers per cc. I don't remember 23 Q. Well, under OSHA, for a fiber to be counted, must 22 the exact dates. Recently, they adopted the .2 24 it have a diameter of .25 microns or greater? 23 fibers per cc. That was done in the last couple of 25 A. It's not used. Counting -- basically, the 24 years. Frankly, after passage of OSHA, I didn't 25 follow TLV's and their change, because it really 1 Dr. Dement PAGE 94 2 1 Dr. Dement 2 PAGE 91 3 4 Q. definition I 've said is what's used. So your understanding of the OSHA counting method, 3 4 Q. didn't have the force of law. Is it your understanding that when the TLV for 5 then, is that any fiber which is greater than five 6 microns and has a length to width ratio of three to 5 asbestos changed from 2 fibers per cc, it went to 6 .2 fibers per cc? 7 8 A. one or greater is a countable fiber. Yeah. They have some specifications on diameter 7 A. There was an intermediate step, asI recall. And 9 respirabi1ity. But again, for practical purposes, 8 they made some distinction initially between 10 it has no -- it's on the books. But airborne 9 crysotyle and amphiboles, and then they changed 11 fibers collected are going to always have fibers 10 their mind and have treated them all the same. 12 diameter's less than that. They're just not going 11 Q. But as you said, the TLV is not the law. 13 to -- 12 A. No. It's just a number put together by a group of 14 MR. JACOBS: Objection to the series of 13 people volunteering their time. 15 questions as to form, only because you talked about 14 Q. But the PEL and the STELare the law. Is that 16 two different types of methods of counting in the 15 right? - 17 series of questions. We just got through talking 16 A. They are. Yes. 18 about it. 17 Q. And the PEL and the STEL are part of the OSHA 19 Q. Doctor, you mentioned that under the OSHA counting 18 regulations. 20 method, there is something on the books that has to 19 A. Yes. 21 do with respirabi1ity. 20 Q. For purposes of determining PEL and STEL, does OSHA 22 A. Yes. 21 define a fiber? 23 Q. Correct? Can you tell me what that is? 22 A. For purposes of a count based on that method of 24 A. Well, in the OSHA standard, and in some of NIAR's 23 sampling, yes. 25 documents, talk about what is a respirable fiber. 24 Q. For purposes of counting,what's theOSHA 25 definition? 1 Dr. Dement PAGE 95 2 1 Dr. Dement PAGE 92 3 And it's primarily a function of its diameter. And 2 4 most people agree that a fiber will be respirable 3 A. Well, basically, they define a fiber as being a 5 if it's less than three or three and a half 4 particle of an aspic ratio that has a 5 length/diameter of at least three to one. And for 6 micrometers in diameter. 7 And so, yeah, it's discussed. And it's 6 counting, using the phase contrast method to count 8 actually part of the counting process. But for 7 fibers, longer than five micrometers. 9 practical purposes -- I've sampled thousands of 8 0- Does OSHA take into account a diameter measurement 10 asbestos situations. Nearly ali the fibers, 9 for counting purposes? 11 airborne fibers, are going to be less than that 10 A. Well, they -- in the original standards they did 12 respirable upper limit. 11 not. The most recent one, they talk about 13 So it has no practical value. COURT REPORTING SERVICES (919) 832-4114 PAGE 15 PAGESAVER________ DEPOSI T I O N OF JOHN DEMENT. P H . D . . M A R C H 12. 1996 14 Q. 15 16 17 18 19 A. In the reports that came back to you from Dr. Longo regarding his testing, did he distinguish between fibers which he found which were greater than five microns and those which were less than five microns? He reports his data in terms of structures per cc 16 count them by phase contrast versus what's really 17 there, you're only counting a small piece of it. 18 So, it's always viewed as an index of exposure, not 19 necessarily to define fibers that have biological 20 activity versus those that don't, but based on a 21 practical sampling. 20 21 22 Q. as a total count. Attached to the report are actually results of the count in terms of size. Let's turn to the earlier report, Doctor, and talk 22 Q. 23 24 A. When counting OSHA fibers, should one use the NI0SH 7400 and 7402 methods? It depends on your objective. I mean, I prefer to 23 about some of the specifics there. Andthat is 24 what's marked as Exhibit No. 2. 25 ___ use the best analytical method I can, especially if 25 A. Yes. 1 Dr. Dement PAGE 99 1 Dr. Dement 2 3 (BRIEF RECESS) PAGE 96 2 3 4 5 Q. you're doing the type of study that we're referring to here. Well, does OSHA call out, or specify, the method 4 A. 5 6 Q. 7 A. 8 I want to clarify one point. We talked about, counting of fibers of minimal diameter of .25. U'h-huh (yes), And again, the only reason for that is, if you want to do electron microscopy counts, and you want to 6 7 8 A. 9 10 that is to be used for sampling that is done under the OSHA regulations? It does, for purpose of regulatory sampling. It's the phase contrast method, because it's cheap and it's readily available, and all those things that 9 make that comparable to so-called phase contrast 10 counts, then that's sort of the criteria that's 11 12 Q. go into regulations. Is that the 7400, NI0SH 7400 method? 11 used, because that's considered more or less the 13 A. It's the 7400 with some modifications. They 12 limit of resolution. 14 actually, in 1986, slightly modified the 7400. 13 We have done some work ourselves with regard 15 Q. How was it modified in 1986? 14 to phase contrast and trying to relate that to TEH 16 A. Well, they talked about different counting, some 15 counts. We don't necessarily agree. We think you 17 different counting, A&B counting rules, for 16 can actually see fibers by the phase contrast less 18 example. I don't think they accepted the B 17 than .25. That is what's called a resolution of a 19 counting rules. They also specified this, called a 18 microscope, and its ability to define two circles 20 CAWL, that's a sampling set. 19 as independent, the distance between two circles. 21 Q. I'm sorry. I didn't catch that. 20 But to count a fiber, you don't have to do 22 A. A CAWL. It's an elongated tube, actually in front 21 that. You just have to see it as an elongated 22 particle. So, that is background information. 23 Q. Well, let me ask you a general question, then. If 23 24 Q. 25 of the sampling cassette. Let me turn to the report that ismarked Exhibit No. 2. Would you look at Page 3? 24 I am using transmission electron microscopy to 25 determine fiber size, and I'm looking for OSHA 1 Dr . Dement PA6E 100 2 1 Dr. Dement PAGE 97 3 A. Yes. 2 3 fibers -- 4 Q. 5 Please. In the third line from the. top, you reference 40 CFR 753 sub-part E, Appendix A. 4 A. Right. 6 A. Right. 5 Q. -- would I count something that has a diameter 7 Q. What is that? 6 less than .25 microns? 8 A. That's the EPA rule. It's actually part of the 7 A. 8 If you just go by the -- what I'm saying is, the standard resolution of a microscope, you would say 9 asbestos in school regulation. This is called the 10 EPA interim counting method. 9 between 2/10th's and 2/5. I mean, that's sort of 11 Q. Is that an AHERA method? 10 the theoretical limitations. But in reality, 12 A. Yeah. 11 fibers are counted by the PLM that are less than 13 Q. A-H-E-R-A? 12 that. 14 A. Yes. It is. 13 You can see them, especially an elongated 15 Q. Was that method used in any of the counting that 14 particle. You can see the diameter. 16 was done? 15 Q. Is there an answer to my question? 17 A. That's actually the structures, the method 16 A. No. There's no precise answer to your question, 18 specifies counting fibers and structures. And 17 18 19 20 Q. because there's a gray area in there that there is actually some disagreement of whether or not you see or don't see it. Well, let's take this hypothetical. If I'm looking 19 20 21 Q. 22 that's actually the way the data is presented in the packaged report. Is that the method that Dr. Longo used in the counting that he did? 21 at fibers using TEM, but I want to countOSHA 23 A. From my understanding, yes, that's the method that 22 fibers, and I have a fiber that is greater than 5 24 was used. 23 microns in length, and is .1 microns in width, 25 Q. In the report that you have submitted, you have 24 would that be considered an OSHA fiber? 25 A. In my -- based on my experience, yes. It would be. 1 Dr. Dement PAGE 101 2 1 Dr. Dement PAGE 98 3 included Dr. Longo's count sheets. Correct? 2 4 A. Yes. I have. 3 It would be a fiber that would likely be seen by 4 most PLM microscopes. 5 Q. 6 On Page 4, five lines from the bottom, you say that filter blanks and chamber background samples 5 Q. Same hypothetical, but instead of a diameter of .1, 7 collected prior to each experiment did not detect 6 the diameter is .05. Would that be an OSHA fiber? 8 the presence of crysotyle and so forth? 7 A. Well, yeah. Defining OSHA fiber as some fiber 9 A. Yes. 8 that's -- if you want to define OSHA fibers, you 10 Q. You reference filtered blanks there. When you use 9 have to go back and use PLM. But no, you're likely 11 the word "blank," what does that mean? 10 not to see that with phase contrast microscopy. 12 A. Well, one of the filters that was used here, the 11 You have to realize that the OSHA counting, based 13 one that was used for calibration, and was also 12 on the NI0SH method, is only an index of exposure 13 to fibers, anyway. 14 In fact, in textile mills, where I have done a 15 lot of work, if you look at airborne fibers and 14 15 Q. 16 17 A. submitted, was also not found to contain asbestos. Well, let's look for a second, just so I am clear, at Page 3 again. Right. COURT REPORTING SERVICES (919) 832-4114 PAGE 16 PAGESAVER DEPOSITION OF JOHN 18 Q. Sample ID 10 is a field blank. Correct? 19 A. Right. 20 Q. And does that mean that there was no air -- 21 A. That is correct. 22 Q. -- pulled through that? 23 A. That is correct. 24 Q. And it was submitted for analysis. Correct? 25 A. Yeah. Mainly as a check for thebackground of the DEMENT. 20 21 22 23 24 25 PH.D.. M A R C H 12. 1996 Q. (By Mr. Davies) Now, in the upper left corner it indicates that this is Sample ID 3. And as I understand it, from Page 3 of your report, that would be one of the filters that was used for sampling the background. Is that right? A. That is correct. Dr. Dement PAGE 105 1 Dr. 2 3 4 5 6 7 Q. 8 11109 12 13 1145 16 1178 19 20 21 222324 25 Dement PAGE 102 filter itself. But I think more importantly is the calibration filter and all of the blank background filters which have air pulled through them also were found to contain asbestos. Is it correct that only one filter that had no air pulled through it was tested? Submitted for analysis, yes. On Page 6, at the top is the heading "Materials Analytical Services, Inc." Right. Who is that? That's the same group who did the other analysis. It's Bill Longo. And do you have any idea who put the writing on this particular form? No. In the lower left corner it talks about the number of structures. I guess there's an analyst that's sort of in the dark area that signed, back up to your question. Can you make that out? No. In the lower left corner it talks about structures. And in that portion of the report that refers to asbestos concentration data, the initials BAS appear. Correct? Yes. What does that mean? I think it means it's below the analytical sensitivity as evidenced by the -- as are evidenced by the results that were presented back. Q. In the lower right corner of Page 13, there is the heading "Analytical Sensitivity Structures per cc." Correct? Yes. And for this particular sample, that is given as 0.013. That is correct. I understand that to mean that although no asbestos structures were found, the analyst could not rule out the possibility that such a structure may have been present. Is that -- A. You can never rule out the negative. What the analyst does is, goes through a routine, a standardized process, and based on the volume of the air sample, the area, the number of grids Dr. Dement PAGE 106 1 Dr. 432 A. 5 Q. 6 7 8 A. 190 Q. 11 12 A. 1413 Q. 15 A. 16 Q. 17 18 A. 19 Q. 20 21 A. 22 Q. 23 24 25 A. Dement PAGE 103 Correct? Yes. Does that tell us anything about whether the structure is a matrix, or a bundle, or a cluster, or an individual fiber? No. This was just looking for the presence or absence of asbestos. Does it tell us anything about the size of the structures? No. Looking at Page 12, again, this is a summary that came from Dr. Longo's lab. Is that right? That is correct. In the left column, under the heading "Phase Contrast Microscopy," -- Yes. -- there is a listing for structures per cc. Correct? Yes. Is it correct that phase contrast microscopy does not tell us whether a particular structure is asbestos or not? That is correct. counted, determines how low they feel they can detect and quantify material. And that's as low as it could go. Q. Well, is the analyst saying that although I did not find any asbestos fibers, there could be a concentration as great as .013 fibers per cc? A. No. That's not what h e 's saying. He's just saying it's below his ability to define it. Beyond that, it's anybody's guess. Q. Would you look, please, at Page 15? A. Yes. Q. And this is Sample 4 which, according to your records, is the filter taken from the Hobart test. Correct? A. Yes. Q. In the upper left corner it says, under "Analytical Protocol Level II," Roman Numeral II, what does that mean? A. I don't know what it means. It's the lab's identification of their protocol. If the protocol is micron microscopy, a level 1 may be phase contrast. I can't tell you. Q. Would you also look in conjunction with that at Dr. Dement PAGE 107 1 Dr. 2 3 4 5 6 7 1890 11 12 0 . 13 14 A. 15 16 Q. 17 A. 18 19 Dement PAGE 104 A. Can you make that determination using techniques Q. available under transmission electron microscopy? Yes. You can. A. What are those techniques? Q. Well, first of all, it's sort of the morphology of a particle to define it as a possible fiber of A. interest. Then, most people look at it by energy Q. to disperse of X-ray analysis as one technique, or electron defraction is another. A. Is one of those two better than the other at determining whether a structure is asbestos or not? Not necessarily. They're both useful, and the labs Q. use different techniques, and sometimes both. Would you look at Page 13, please? Yes. A. MR. JACOBS: Of Exhibit No. 2? Q. MR. DAVIES: Yes. A. COURT REPORTING SERVICES Page 16? Yes. And is Page 16 the count sheet which corresponds to the data reported on Page 15? Yes. Looking at Page 16, can you tell me how many crysotyle asbestos structures are found? Well, he counted a total of nine structures. And are any of those structures fibers that would be counted under OSHA? Well, if you look at the columns width and diameter -- I mean, excuse me, length and width, Number 7 would have been a countable structure. I note, under the column -- again, on Page 16 -under the column titled "Structure," there is the letter M and the letter B. Right. What does that mean? It's a matrix/bundle. (919) 832-4114 PAGE 17 PAGESAVER________ DEPOSITION OF JOHN DEMENT. P H . D . . M A R C H 12. 1996 22 Q. 23 A. 24 Q. 25 A. And the M and the B are both circled. Circled? There is a circle -- It's not circled on my page. Correct? 24 25 Q. in. I don't think it refers to any particular -- It doesn't have to do with the edax itself? 1 Dr. Dement PAGE 111 1 Dr. 2 3 4 Q. 5 6 A. 7 8 9 10 Q. 11 12 13 14 A. 15 16 17 Q. 18 A. 19 20 21 Q. Dement PAGE 108 MR. JACOBS: 16? No circles on my pages. May I see yours? Do you have the original report, Doctor? Yes. That's the one that was photocopied against. That was exactly the one that's -- MR. JACOBS: And I'm the one who gave it from my copy. (By Mr. Davies) I stand corrected. There are no circles. Thank you. When one is dealing with a structure that is a matrix, how are the dimensions recorded? Well, if you're looking at it by phase contrast, you would simply look at its widest dimension versus its length, its longest dimension. And -- It's hard to see a bundle with the phase contrast, because they appear to be usually one type of fiber. Well, as I understand it here, Dr. Longo or his 2 3 A. 4 5 6 Q. 7 8 A. 9 Q. 10 11 A. 12 Q. 13 A. 14 Q. 15 16 17 A. 18 Q. 19 20 21 A. 22 23 Q. No. The edax itself is trying to identify the peaks. I don't think it -- usually these things are stored to disk. Okay. So that appears to be a reference to a disk where it may be stored. That's my understanding of it. If you would, please, would you turn to Pages 26 through 30? Yes. Page 26 refers to Sample 9. Correct? Yes. It does. And it referred back to some of the earlier pages that would be the testing that was done on the burned rods. Correct? Yes. Does the report from Dr. Longo's laboratory indicate how many 0SHA fibers were found in this test? Well, it does give you a count of structures longer than five. And how many OSHA fibers did he find? 22 23 24 A. people were looking at these structures under the transmission electron microscope. Correct? Right. 24 A. 25 I don't know the number.He found a concentration. He reported a concentration of .036. 25 Q. Referring to Structure No. 7 -- 1 Dr. Dement PAGE 112 2 1 Dr. Dement PAGE 109 3 Q. Well, looking at Page 26, just below the center of 2 4 the page in the middle column, there is a heading, 3 A. 4 Q. 5 A. 6 Q. 7 Okay. -- which has a length in microns of 7.0 -- Right. -- does that 7.0 represent the gross length of the matrix? 5 6 A. 7 Q. 8 9 A. "greater than 5 microns." Correct? Yes. It is. And the report under that is that were found. I'm sorry. three such fibers 8 A. 9 That's usually the rule when it's used, yes. That's the minimum and maximum, length and width. 10 Q. 11 A. Is that right? Yeah. He has counted them up. Yeah. I mean, you 10 Q. 11 12 13 A. 14 Q. 15 A. 16 Q. And using that same structure, then, the 0.6 micron width would represent the gross width of the matrix. Yes. Would you look at Page 17, please, Doctor? Yes. And is this an X-ray energy dispersion spectra? 12 13 14 Q. 15 16 17 18 could go back to the attachments to the report to find out which three they were. Well, I don't propose to take the time to do that. But is it a fair statement to say that of the total 103 asbestos structures that were found, three of them were OSHA fibers? MR. JACOBS: Objection to the form. 17 A. 18 Q. 19 A. Yes, it is. Spectrum? Yes, it is. I'm sorry. 19 A. 20 21 Q. Well, longer than five. And so, about 3 percent. You see that in a lot of asbestos operations. Well -- 20 Q. 21 Is there any way for you to tell us which structure reported on Page 60 is shown by the spectrum on 22 A. 23 Q. 3 percent longer than five. Is my statement correct, or incorrect? 22 Page 17? 24 A. Yeah. But I'm -- yeah. It is correct. But what 23 MR. JACOBS: Say it one more time. We can 25 I'm saying is, it's just not -- it's fairly typical 24 25 Q. have it read back. Let me try it another way, Doctor. 1 Dr. Dement 2 My impression PAGE 110 1 Dr. Dement PAGE 113 2 3 of what you'd see in an asbestos plant. 4 Q. Uh-huh (yes). Would you look at Page 27 -- 3 4 5 6 A. 7 Q. 8 9 10 A. 11 12 13 14 Q. 15 16 A. 17 Q. 18 19 20 21 A. 22 Q. 23 A. is, that the spectrum that is shown on Page 17 is an edax of one of the structures that is reported on Page 16. Is that your impression as well? That is correct. Are you able to tell me which of the nine structures reported on Page 16 is shown on the edax spectrum on Page 17? Well, the only thing you can look at is the column where he has EDS. And it would have been either fiber 1 or 2, but I can't tell you which one it is. I don't see a designation on this, on this chart. When you say the column marked "EDS" you're referring to the extreme right column on Page 16? Yes. Looking at the spectrum on Page 17, near thelower right of the spectrum, the letters capital B capital F capital S. and then the "equals 32" appears. Correct? Uh-huh (yes). Do you know what that means? It's probably a file that they store this material 5 A. 6 Q. 7 8 A. 9 Q. 10 A. 11 Q. 12 13 A. 14 Q. 15 16 A. 17 Q. 18 A. 19 Q. 2210 A. 22 Q. 23 A. 24 Q. 25 Yes. -- Doctor? Structure No. 14, which is shown there Yes. -- has a length of 8.5 microns. Correct? Yes. And it is described as being a matrix-bundle. Correct? Yes. And on page 28, Structure No. 26 is described as having a length of 5.7 microns. Correct? Yes. It does. And it is a bundle as well? Yes. And on that same page, Structure 31 has a length of Right. 24 microns. Correct? And it, too, is shown as a matrix-bundle. Correct? Yes. It is. Considering the length and width of that particular structure, do you have an opinion as to whether COURT REPORTING SERVICES (919) 832-4114 PAGE 18 PAGESAVER DEPOSITION OF JOHN DEMENT. 1 Dr. 2 3 4 A. Dement that would be respirable? Yes. It would. PAGE 114 3 4 5 6 5 Q. Is it correct. Doctor, that in all of the testing 7 6 that Dr. Longo did, he confirmed the presence of 8 7 crysotyle asbestos and no other variety? 9 8 A. That is correct. 10 9 Q. Would you look at Page 49? 11 10 A. Yes. 12 11 Q. Now,i is this one of your forms? 13 12 A. Yes. It is. 14 13 Q. In the box about a third of the way down the page, 15 14 I find a sentence, "Please provide TEM photographs 16 15 of typical fields." 17 16 A. Right. 18 17 Q. Did you receive those? 19 18 A. No. We didn't get TM's of this. We did get T M 's 20 19 of the dust, settled dust. 21 20 Q. By that you're referring to -- 22 21 A. Well, attached on the back. That's the only TM's 23 22 we got on this sample. 24 23 Q. Page 50? 25 PH.D.. M A R C H 12. 1996 sorry, 200 structures were measured. Correct? A. Yes. Q. Do you know how many of those structures are 0SHA fibers? A. I haven't gone back and tried to calculate the percentage. No. MR. JACOBS: Same objection as to form with respect to that. (BRIEF PAUSE) Q. Doctor, just to confirm my understanding, the only physical activity involving the rods in any testing that you did was the rubbing and bumping of the rods. Is that correct? A. That is correct. And as I said, the original work that Lori Todd and I did together was just taking materials and sending them for analysis to determine if they had asbestos in them. Q. What did you do there? Did you break some of the flux away? A. We just broke a piece of flux away and sent it to the lab. Q. How was it broken? A. I think with a pair of pliers. Yes. A pair of 25 Q Is it correct that what is shown on Page 50 is not Dr. Dement PAGE 118 1 Or. 2 3 4 A. 5 67 Q. 8 A. 9 10 Q. 11 A. 12 Q. 13 A. 14 Q. 15 16 17 18 19 20 A. 21 Q. 22 23 A. 24 Q. 25 Dement PAGE 115 what you asked for on Page 49? No. It's not correct. It's part of what we asked for. It's just that I'd like to have more. But that's what we got. Well, what do the micrographs on Page 50 show? Well, they show what we asked for, is typical fibers as seen in this material. Did you ask for typical fibers, or typical fields? Typical fields. It's the same thing. Fields and fibers are the same thing? That's what you find fibers on, are fields. Is there any way to look at the micrographs that are shown on Page 50 -- I should say, the photocopies of micrographs shown on Page 50 -- and correlate back to the testing that was done so that we can know which structures are shown in these micrographs? No. I don't think so. Would you look again, please, at Page 15, Doctor, of Exhibit No. 2? Yes. Is the concentration of asbestos structures greater than 5 microns in length less than the PEL that was wire cutters. But that had to do with bulk sample testing to determine whether there was asbestos? That is correct. It was simply a presence or absence, and roughly how much. One last question regarding Page 16. Yes. Of 2? Of Exhibit No. 2. All right. Okay. And I apologize if I'm repeating myself. Referring to Structure No. 7 -- Yes. -- the indication there is that it is a matrix- bundle. Correct? Yes. One point of clarification, too, is that I didn't calculate the percentage longer than five. There is a graph in this report that gives a distribution of the fiber length. Q. You're referring to Exhibit No. 1? A V6S sir " CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. JACOBS: Q. Matrix and bundle, which is in this report for the crysotyle particles, do you understand what is mean Dr. Dement PAGE 119 1 Dr. 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1110 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 A. 25 Q. Dement PAGE 116 in effect up until about 1986? I guess it is. And would you look again, please, at Page 26, again focusing on the asbestos concentrations for structures greater than 5 microns? Yes. Is that concentration less than the PEL that was in effect up until about 1986? Yes. It is. Referring to Exhibit No. 1, which is the second test that you have reported on -- Yes. -- other than the collection of the residue, was all of that testing performed by Dr. Longo? Yes. The analytical work was done there. Referring to the pages that we have lettered, G through M, are these count sheets? Yes. They are. On any of those count sheets, is there anything to indicate whether edaxing or diffraction testing was done? Well, they didn't indicate on the sheets. No. The count sheet indicates that 200 fibers -- I'm 1 Dr. Dement 2 PAGE 117 by that with respect to that type of analysis? A. Yes. Q. What is it? What is the difference between a bundle and a matrix, I guess? A. Well, a bundle usually refers to a particle that appears to be a fiber. When you look at it in the transmission electromicrosope, you actually see it's made up of, like, a bundle of fibers. Matrix means that it's usually a particle, a fiber attached to a matrix of other materials. , Q. Okay. With respect to crysotyle, the type of fiber that w e 're talking of here, is it unusual that those fibers which are counted by light microscopy, under electron microscopy, appear to be bundles? A. No. It's just -- it's very common. That's the case, because you don't see, or you have limited ability to see that. With optical microscopy, we can look at them in higher magnifications. That's what you see. MR. JACOBS: That's all. (THEREUPON, THE WITNESS WAS DISMISSED.) Page State of North Carolina County of Lee CERTIFICATE I, Kimberly A. Petrarca, notary public/court reporter, do hereby certify that John Dement's said COURT REPORTING SERVICES (919) 832-4114 PAGE 19 PAGESAVER________ D E P O S I T I O N OF JOH N DEMENT. deposition was taken and transcribed under my supervision; and that the foregoing pages numbered 1 through 119 constitute a true and accurate transcript of the testimony of the witness. I do further certify that I am not of counsel for, or in the employment of either of the parties to this action, nor am I interested in the results of this action. In witness whereof, I have hereunto subscribed my name this 8th day of April, 1996. My conmission expires: March 13, 1998 Kimberly A. Petrarca, CVR Notary Public for the State of North Carolina ** NOTES ** PH.D M A R C H 12. 1996 ** NOTES ** I COURT REPORTING SERVICES (919) 832-4114 PAGE 20 PAGESAVER TM PAGESAVER KEYWORD INDEX - SINGLE FILE INDEX IN RE: ASBESTOS LITIGATION DEPOSITION OF: JOHN DEMENT, PH.D. D A T E (s ): M A R C H 12, 1996 COMMENTS : NOTES : PAGESAVER TM ABOUT AFTER ALL ALREADY ALSO AM AN AND ANOTHER ANSWER ANY ANYTHING ARE AS AT B BE BECAUSE BEEN BEFORE BUT BY CAN CAN'T CORRECT COULD D DEPOSITION DID DIDN'T DO DOES DOESN'T DON'T E E ELSE F F FAR FOR FROM G G GET GO GOING GOT H H HAD HADN'T HAS NOISE WORD LISTING - THESE WORDS HAVE BEEN OMITTED HAVE HAVEN'T HE H E 'S HER HERE HERS HIM HIS HOW I 'D I 'M I 'VE IF IN IS ISN'T IT IT'LL IT'S ITS JUST K KNOW L LET LIKE LOT M MADE E MAKE MANY MAY MAYBE F ME MEAN MISS MR MRS MS G MUCH MUST MY N NEED H NO NOPE NOT NOW OF OFF OK OKAY ON OR OTHER OUR OUT OVER PERHAPS PM PUT Q Q QUESTION R R RIGHT SAID SAY SHE SHOULD SO SOME SOMEPLACE SOMETHING THAT THAT'S THATS THE THEIR THEM THEN THERE THEREFORE THESE THEY THINK THIS THOSE TO TOO U US V VERY W WANT WANTS WAS WE WE'VE WELL WERE WHAT WHAT'S WHEN WHERE WHICH WHO WITH WITHIN WITNESS WOULD YEAH YES YOU YOU'D YOU'LL YOU'RE YOU'VE YOUR YOURSELF ALL SINGLE LETTER WORDS HAVE ALSO BEEN OMITTED FROM THE ENCLOSED KEYWORD INDEX Page 1 PAGESAVER TM DEPOSITION OF JOHN DEMENT, PH.D., MARCH 12, 1996 Page 2 II II "ANALYTICAL(2)[105,12][106,1 8] "ANY,"(1)[48,9] "ASBESTOS-CONTAINING(1)[ 55,1 7] "AT(1)[77,18] "BLANK,"(1)[101,11] "COURTNEY,"(1)[10,21] "EDS"(1)[110,14] "EQUALS(1)[110,19] "FEW"(1)[75,24] "GL0VE(1)[26,3] "GREATER(1)[112,5] "HIS(1)[68,8] "INTACT,"(1)[49,4] "MATERIAL,"(1)[54,14] "MATERIALS(1)[102,10] "MIXED,"(1)[34,5] "NO,"(l)[64,14] "PHASE(1)[103,16] "PLEASE(1)[114,14] "RECEIVING(1)[45,17] "STRUCTURE,"(1)[107,17] "THAT"(1)[68,15] "THAT."(1)[39,13] "WENT(1)[60,11] ( ( ( (BRIEF(3)[57,6][96,3][117,11 (BY(4)[19,11][59,24][104,20] [108,10] (THEREUP0N(3)[9,21][39,14][l 19,23] (YES)(5)[22,14][83,12][96,6] [110,2l][113,4] * .013(1)[106,8] ,036(1)[111,25] .05(1)[98,6] 1(2)[97,23][98,5] .2(5)[77,16][77,24][78,6][90 ,22][91,6] ,25(7)[93,8][93,16][93,18][9 3,24][96,5][96,17][97,6] 0 0 0 0.013(1)[105,16] 0.6(1)[109,10] 1 1 1 10(8)[10,1][22,3][22,6][22,6 [22,8][72,13][75,5][101,18] 100(1)[100,1] 101(1)[101,1] 102(1)[102,1] 103(2)[103,1][112,16] 104(1)[104,1] 105(1)[105,1] 106(1)[106,1] II IIII IIII IIII IIII IIII IuIII IIII IIII IIII IIII IIII IIII IIII 107(1)[107,1] 108(l)[l08,l] 109(1)[109,13 li(i)[n.i] H0(i)[ii0,i] lii(i)[in,i] 112(1)[112,1] 113(1)[113,1] 114(1)[114,1] 115(1)[115,1] 116(1)[116,1] 117(1)[117,1] 118(l)[118,l] 119(1)[119,1] 12(10)[12,1][36,11][71,4][71 ,7][72,7][72,17][75,19][79, 18][79,20][103,13] 13(3)[13,l][104,16][105,ll] 14(3)[10,3][14,1][113,6] 15(20)[15,1][22,8][35,10][37 ,16][37,17][72,23][73,16][7 4,4][74,6][74,16][75,13][76 ,14][76,25][82,6][82,7][82, 13][85,7][106,12][107,6][U 5,21] 15-MINUTE(3)[73,8][74,11][76 ,24] 16(10)[16,1][107,3][107,5][1 07,8][107,16][108,3][110,5] [110,8][110,15][118,8] 17(6)[17,1][109,14][109,22][ 110,3][110,9][110,17] 18(2)[18,1][80,8] 19(1)[19,1] 1968(3)[79,15][90,12][90,18] 1970(1)[79,6] 1971(3)[79,6][79,10][79,16] 1976(3)[78,9][78,24][79,5] 1986(7)[77,9][77,20][78,24][ 99,14][99,15][116,3][116,10 1987(1)[77,12] 1988(1)[77,12] 1993(1)[68,15] 1994(3)[43,17][47,3][68,3] 1995(4)[6,25][8,21][10,3][62 ,22] 1996(5)[6,13][8,19][8,21][22 2 2 2 2/10TH'S(l)[97,9] 5/R1 U07 Ql 20(8)[20,1][35,10][37,8][37, 23][82,6][82,7][82,13][86,1 0] 200(2)[116,25][117,3] 21(1)[21,1] 22(1)[22,1] 23(1)[23,1] 24(2)[24,1][113,20] 25(4)[25,1][36,7][84,10][86, 11] 26(7)[26,1][59,23][111,9][11 II IIII IIII IIII II IIII IIII IIII II IIII II ItIl IIII IIII tIlI IIII IIIt IIII ItIl IIII IIII IItI IIII IIII 1,12][112,3][113,14][116,5] 27(3)[27,1][68,15][113,4] 28(2)[28,1][113,14] 29(2)[10,8][29,1] 3 3 3 30(8)[21,5][30,1][75,7][75,8 [75,21][76,14][80,18][111,1 0] 30-MINUTE(1)[76,8] 31(2)[31,1][113,19] 32(1)[32,1] 32"(1)[110,19] 33(1)[33,1] 54(1)[34,1 ] 35(1)[35,1] 36(l)[36,l] 37(1)[37,1] 38(1)[38,1] 39(1)[39,1] 4 4 4 40(2)[40,1][100,5] 41(1)[41,1] 42(1)[42,1] 43(1)[43,l] 44(1)[44,1] 45(1)[45,1] 46(1)[46,1] 47(1)[47,1] 48(1)[48,1] 49(3)[49,1][114,9][115,3] 5 5 .5 5.7(1)[113,15] 50(6)[50,1][114,23][114,25][ 115,7][115,15][115,16] 61(1)[51,1] 52(5)[10,5][10,12][20,20][25 ,18][52,1] 53(1)[53,1] 54(1)[54,1] 55(1)[55,1] 56(1)[56,1] O 1\1JHlR*J71,X1J1 58(1)[58,1] 59(1)[59,1] IIII IIII IIII IIII IIII II IIII IIII IIII II IIII IIII IIII 6 6 6 60(2)[60,1][109,21] 61(1)[61,1] 62(1)[62,1] 63(1)[63,1] 64(1)[64,1] 65(1)[65,1] 66(1)[66,1] 67(1)[67,1] 68(2)[68,1][79,12] 69(1)[69,1] IIII IIII IIII IIII IHI IIII IIII ii iiti 1I1I liii IIII iiit IIIt IIII IIII 7 7 7 7.0(2)[109,4][109,6] 70(1)[70,1] 70'S(1)[19,16] 71(1)[71,1] 72(1)[72,1] 73(1)[73,1] 74(1)[74,1] 7400(6)[92,17][98,23][99,12] [99,12][99,13][99,14] 7402(4)[92,17][92,20][92,24] [98,23] 75(1)[75,1] 753(1)[100,5] 76(1)[76,1] 77(1)[77,1] 78(1)[78,1] 79(1)[79,1] II IIII II IIII IIII IIII II IHI IIII IIII IIII IIII IIII II IIII IIII IIII IIII IItI IIII IIII IIII 8 8 8 II IIIt II IIIt II IIIt 8.5(1)[113,9] 80(1)[80,1] 80'S(1)[19,16] 81(1)[81,1] 82(1)[82,1] 83(l)[83,l] 84(1)[84,1] 85(l)[85,l] 86(1)[86,1] 87(1)[87,1] 88(1)[88,1] 89(1)[89,1] IIIt IItt IIII IIII IIII IIII IIII tIlI IIII IIII II IIII IIII IIII IIII IIII I;I; IIII 9 9 9 II HII 90(1)[90,1] 91(l)[9l,l] 92(1)[92,1] 93(1)[93,1] 94(1)[94,1] 95(1)[95,1] 96(1)[96,1] 97(1)[97,1] 98(1)[98,1] 99(1)[99,1] A A A AB(1)[99,17] A-H-E-R-A(l)[100,13] ABILITY(4)[9,3][96,18][106,1 0][119,19] AB LE(3)[73,24][80,4][110,7] AB0VE(1)[63,14] ABSENCE(3)[42,19][103,9][U8 ,7] ACCEPT(1)[58,8] ACCEPTED(1)[99,18] ACCOMPANIED(4)[49,13][50,5] [ 50,10][68,22] ACCOMPLISHED(l)[21,15] ACCORDING(1)[106,14] IItI IIII IIII IIII IIIt IIII IIII IIII IIII IIII IIII IIII IIII IIII IIII IItI IIII IIII IIII IIII IIII IIII IIII IIII IIII IIII IIII IIII IIII IIII 1II1 IIII IiIi IIII IIII IItI tIlI IIII IIII IIII IIIt IIII II II COURT REPORTING SERVICES (919) 832-4114 'ANALYTICAL to ACCORDING PAGESAVER TM DEPOSITION OF JOHN DEMENT, PH.D., MARCH 12, 1996 Page 3 ACC0UNT(2)[77,21][92,8] AMERICAN(2)[8,16][9,7] ACCURATE(1)[57,22] AMOUNT(3)[62,16][63,19][69,2 ACGIH(2)[90,16][90,17] 0] ACH(1)[90,13] AMPHIBOLES(1)[91,9] ACHIEVE(1)[36,6] AMPHRABOLES(3)[8,7][8,12][8, ACHIEVING(1)[36,7] 12] ACTIVITY(2)[98,20][117,13] ANALYSIS(13)[7,25][8,5][42,1 ACTUAL(7)[12,3][13,24][15,10 7][60,5][64,23][68,19][68,2 [25,24][82,19][89,18][89,19 0][101,24][102,9][102,14][1 ACTUALLY(2o)[8,20][12,4][14, 04,10][117,18][119,3] 19][18,5][21,25][26,5][26,2 ANALYST(4)[102,21][105,19][1 0][32,10][38,25][48,23][54, 05,23][106,6] 16][64,12][73,6][78,9][79,6 ANALYTICAL(4)[98,25][102,11] [93,11][95,8][95,21][96,16] [105,8][116,17] [97,18][99,14][99,22][100,8 ANALYZED(2)[29,6][29,8] [100.17] [100,19][119,9] ANALYZING(l)[65,12] ACUTE(1)[78,17] ANYBODY(6)[18,19][18,25][19, ADDITI0NAL(1)[7,4] 12][20,13][70,12][73,18] ADDRESS(1)[12,19] ANYBODY'S(l)[106,11] ADDRESSES(1)[8,25] ADEQUATE(l)[18,13] ADJ0URNED(1)[6,23] AN[Y6O6N, E2(14])[17,5][19,21][50,5] ANYWAY(2)[93,22][98,13] 22 ADOPTED(3)[79,12][79,16][90, ] ANYWHERE(2)[11,19][20,5] APHA(2)[9,4][9,7] AFFIXED(2)[51,9][57,7] APOLOGIZE(4)[39,17][39,20][9 AFTERWARDS(1}[67,4] 0,3][118,12] AGAIN(24)[8,24][9,6][20,24][ APPARATUS(3)[28,16][28,21][2 27,18][32,23][41,10][41,12] 9,14] [65.17] [69,12][69,23][71,24APPARENTLY(2)[44,15][93,18] [73,5][75,10][78,23][84,16] APPEAR(4)[70,15][105,5][108, [86,14][94,9][96,7][101,16] 19][119,16] [103,13][107,16][115,21][11 APPEARED(3)[7,16][8,14][8,19 6,5][116,5] APPEARS(9)[10,24][16,17][21, AGAINST(4)[76,16][88,5][89,1 19][25,18][29,18][31,8][110 0][108,6] ,20][111,6][119,8] AGE(1)[48,11] APPENDIX(1)[100,5] AG0(2)[13,19][90,9] APPLICATION(1)[48,12] AGREE(6)[10,4][66,4][66,15][ APPRISING(1)[61,15] 68,16][95,4][96,15] APPROACH(1)[18,21] AGREEABLE(1)[44,22] APPROPRIATES) [18,20] [24,3] AGREED(2)[65,14][65,20] APPROXIMATE(l)[21,22] AHERA(l)[100,ll] APPROXIMATELY(1)[69,19] AIR(45)[13,20][26,10][27,25] AREA(6)[27,17][32,16][32,17] [28,3][28,20][28,22][34,6][ [97,17][102,22][105,25] 34,22][35,3][36,3][36,8][36 ARGUING(l)[53,12] ,9][36,11][36,16][30,24][37 ARM(2)[25,19][42,7] ,5][37,9][37,14][37,17][37, AR0UND(12)[21,5][21,13][25,7 23][40,23][41,22][58,15][59 [25,24][26,11][36,7][59,25] ,16][59,17][71,9][71,14][71 [66.10] [71,17][77,12][80,8] ,16][74,3][75,15][75,20][75 [85.11] ,20][75,23][76,4][76,5][80, ARTICLED) [8,19][8,21][8,22] 18][81,9][82,8][82,22][84,6 ARTICLES(5)[7,8][7,11][9,10] [87,10][101,20][102,5][102, [9.13] [67,15] 7][105,25] ASBESTOS(56)[7,18][8,4][9,13 AIRBORNE(4)[34,8][94,10][95, [9.14] [9,19][28,12][29,6][4 11][98,15] 0,14][40,21][42,19][48,12][ AIRTIGHT(l)[25,17] 54,4][54,9][54,13][55,3][55 ALLEGED(1)[44,19] ,11][55,11][56,8][61,3][64, ALL0W(1)[81,15] 11][64,13][64,23][65,12][66 ALL0WS(1)[32,18] ,6][66,10][66,17][68,19][76 AIM0ST(1)[92,13] ,8][77,4][78,6][78,19][84,2 ALONG(l)[15,22] 2][90,10][90,11][90,18][91, ALTHOUGH(2)[105,18][106,6] 5][93,12][95,10][100,9][101 ALWAYS(2)[94,11][98,18] ,14][102,6][103,9][103,24][ 104,13][105,4][105,18][106, 3,8][83,12][83,18][83,23][8 7][107,9][112,16][112,20][1 6.3] [87,21][87,21][87,24][8 13.3] [114,7][115,24][116,6] 813][88,5][89,14][89,19] [117,19][118,5] BAGS(12)[37,15][50,18][51,9] ASBESTOS-(1)[23,23] [57.8] [57,17][58,10][58,10] ASBESTOS-CONTAINING(3)[55,14 [58.20] [58,22][58,24][59,3] [64.17] [65,6] [59,4] ASK(11)[10,11][20,21][42,9][ BAS(1)[105,4] 52,25][53,12][56,13][70,19] BASED(9)[55,10][62,15][65,17 [76.17] [89,24][96,23][115,1 [91.22] [93,4][97,25][98,11] 0] [98.20] [105,24] ASKED(10)[20,9][39,17][53,7] BASICALLY(9)[11,10][28,18][3 [60,24][61,4][89,24][90,3][ 0,24][32,7][61,11][83,13][8 115.3] [115,4][115,8] 7,19][92,3][93,25] ASKING(2)[39,20][39,21] BASIS(2)[77,17][79,9] ASPIC(1)[92,4] BATCH(5)[43,16][47,12][47,17 ASSEMBLE(1)[11,11] [47.18] [52,21] ASSIGNED(2)[47,18][57,12] BATTERY(1)[33,5] ASSOCIATED(2)[54,22][61,17] BATTERY-OPERATED(1)[71,19] ASS0CIATI0N(1)[9,7] BEARS(1)[14,22] ASSUME(3)[48,13][61,17][62,6 BEG(1)[55,9] ASSURE(1)[27,22] BEGAN(10)[6,12][19,17][29,12 ATTACH(2)[26,20][27,7] [30,3][34,18][34,20][36,4][ ATTACHED(6)[27,17][52,24][57 37,14][60,16][64,8] ,16][95,20][114,21][119,12] BEGIN(2)[7,21][41,14] ATTACHES(1)[26,8] BEGINS(1)[35,4] ATTACHMENT(1)[59,18] BEING(14)[17,17][18,3][27,23 ATTACHMENTS(1)[112,12] [36.19] [41,22][44,10][44,12 ATTEMPT(1)[81,6] [58.9] [68,15][74,3][78,25][ ATTEMPTED(l)[86,23] 92.3] [93,18][113,11] ATTENTIONS) [7,12][46,11] BELIEF(1)[56,14] ATTORNEY(1)[49,23] BELIEVE(6)[8,17][10,24][13,1 AUTHOR(3)[7,21][7,22][16,20] 2] [25,7][25,11][59,8] AVAILABLE(2)[99,10][104,4] BELOW(3)[105,8][106,10][112, AVERAGE(5)[77,17][77,2l][78, 3] 12][79,3][79,9] BELT(1)[71,19] AWARE(1)[20,16] BENCH(1)[20,25] AWAY(2)[117,21][117,22] BENCH-TOP(1)[20,25] BESIDES(2)[19,12][70,12] B B B BEST(4)[58,16][59,8][76,6][9 8,25] B-E-G-I-N(1)[7,25] BETTER(1)[104,12] BACK(45)[19,14][19,16][27,16 BETWEEN(13)[8,7][12,18][14,1 [33,3][33,3][37,19][38,7][4 1][14,19][39,3][43,17][67,6 0,22][40,24][42,21][46,17][ [81.23] [91,8][95,15][96,19] 46,18][46,20][52,12][53,3][ ro7 o i n i Q ri 53.13] [54.25] [53,18][54,10][54,24] [56,22][62,5][65,13] BE1Y0O]ND(3)[20,19][81,24][106, [67.8] [71,22][72,10][74,20] BILL(6)[16,5][54,23][61,20][ [77.13] [80,20][82,16][83,8] 61,23][62,6][102,15] [83.9] [84,11][88,12][88,17] BILLED(8)[15,4][15,18][15,18 [95.14] [98,9][102,22][105,1 [15.19] [16,6][16,6][61,19][ 0][109,24][111,14][112,12][ 62,13] 114,21][115,17][117,7] BILLING(2)[62,4][62,5] BACKGROUND(25)[24,3][27,19][ BINDER(3)[65,9][65,15][65,24 37.7] [37,10][37,25][38,11][ BINDERS(l)[66,13] 38.14] [38,16][38,22][39,5][ BINDING(1)[66,5] 39.22] [40,3][40,23][41,19][ BIOLOGICAL(l)[98,19] 41.22] [81,22][81,25][84,11] BIT(2)[72,25][81,9] [84.14] [87,10][96,22][101,6 BLACK(2)[62,20][64,7] [101.25] [102,4][104,24] BLADES(1)[33,12] BAG(23)[50,16][50,18][50,18] BLANK(6)[80,23][86,13][86,15 [50,21][50,21][51,5][51,6][ [86,16][101,18][102,4] 51.8] [68,4][69,22][69,24][8 BLANKS(2)[101,6][101,10] COURT REPORTING SERVICES (919) 832-4114 ACCOUNT to BLANKS PAGESAVER TM DEPOSITION OF JOHN DEMENT, PH.D., MARCH 12, 1996 Page 4 BLOWING(2)[80,4][85,11] BONUS(3)[62,20][62,22][63,24 CCAANMAPDUASE(1S)([18),5[1]4,20] 213][]8[823,1,44]][[8832,,1115]][[8832,,1147]][[8832,, CCOOLLLLEECCTTINIOGN(1(l))[[81716,1,175] ] BOOKS(3)[92,15][94,10][94,20 BOTH(5)[6,24][20,17][104,14] CCAANNACDEIARN(1!1)[)9[,73,]1 9 ] 1[865] .19][[8864,,83]][[8864,,190][]8[857,6,3][]8[ 5,1C71O,1L7U]M[1N1(07,)1[010][31,1160],[1140]7[,1161]0[1,10 [104,15][107,22] BOTTLE(9)[29,19][29,25][30,5 CCAAPPA(1C)I[T3Y9,(81])[11,22] 8877,,52]4[]8[78,81,43]][[8878,,165][]8[897,6,2][01]0[ CO5L][U1M1N2S,(41])[107,13] [30.9] [30,11][30,16][34,25] [35,11][81,11] C1A0P.1I 9T]A L ( 3 ) [ 1 1 0 , 1 8 ] [ 1 1 0 , 1 9 ] [ 1 C1H,A6N] GE(1)[90,25] C4O4M.6E] (8)[[4278,,273][]4[472,1,212]][[8453,,32]4[][8 BOTTOM(14)[24,15][60,10][68, 14][73,10][73,14][74,21][80 CCAARRCIEN(O3G)[E7N,I1C1IT][Y4(81,)3[]8[,7225,6] ] CCHHAANNGGEEDS((28))[[9316,,58]][[9316,9,9]][75,15 C7O,2M1E] S(4)[21,25][39,8][40,6][ ,10][80,25][85,5][87,20][87 ,23][88,3][88,5][101,5] CCAARSREI(El lR) S[ 7(2, 1)[05]8[,81,59]][5[ 182,1,71]5 ] [ l [[9705..2200]] [75,20][75,23][76,5] 92,14] COMING(l)[86,5] B0UGHT(1)[26,18] B0X(13)[12,6][13,9][13,14][l 264,1.260][]13,[2634],[2453][,1881],1[509][,1101]9[,18CCHHAARNGNEE(L1)([26)1[2,177,2] 4][28,3] C0MMERCIAL(1)[37,3] C0MMISSI0N(1)[19,15] 3,17][13,20][19,3][19,3][21 ,3][30,20][31,5][35,15][58, C1A2S][E9S,1(74)][[75,02,01]2[8][,738][,81,31]1][8, CCHHAEARPT((11))[[9191,09,]13] COMMON(l)[119,17] COMMUNICATION(1}[67,5] 12][114,13] B0XES(1)[13,8] C1A.2S3SE] T[T4E1(,1225)][[4402,1,85]][[4701,2,155][]4[7 C1H0E1.C2K5](4)[39,4][39,22][64,9][ C0MMUNITY(1)[14,23] COMPANY(l)[47,9] BRAND-NEW(1)[35,15] BREAK(2)[73,6][117,20] 29 ..33 ]] [[9890,,2135]][82,24][86,17][8 CCHHEEMM-W-WIPEIPSE(4(2)[)3[310,,51]9[]3[340,,2253]][3 COMPARABILITY(1)[12,18] COMPARABILI )[96,9] BRING(1)[7,11] BR0KE(1)[117,22] C6A,S5S]ETTES(3 ) [ 4 1 , 1 5 ] [ 8 3 ,2 1 ] [ 8 C5H,E1R4Y]L[(355) [,1459], 2 1 ] [ 4 9 ,2 2 ] [ 5 0 ,3 COMPENSATION(1)[62,15] COMPLETE(3)[74,9][75,20][82, BR0KEN(2)[59,12][117,24] BR0THERS(2)[47,8][57,25] CCAAUTSCAHLI(T1Y)[(919),[281], 9 ] C[H5O7.S2E1(]3)[[7505,,284]][55,10][56,3] C4O]MPLETED(1)[80,18] BUBBIE(2)[37,3][37,4] BULK(l)[118,4] CCCA(W1 6L)([27)7[9,59],2[ 70]7[,979],[2727] ,1 6 ] [ 7 7 C[H7O5,S9E] N(4)[71,7][73,16][73,21 C0MPLETELY(3)[21,12][29,22][ 66,12] BUMP(4)[55,19][72,20][73,18] [89.10] 1, 284] []7[ 798,2, 90 ]][[79 80 ,,22 15 ]][[9709,,283] []7[ 991, CCIIRRCCLLEE(Dl)([31)0[71,0274,2] 2][107,23][1 COMPONENTS(l)[32,8] COMPUTER(1)[33,10] BUMPED(5)[12,12][37,16][55,2 3][85,6][87,3] 6, 5,8] []9 1 ,6 ] [ 9 5 ,1 9 ] [ 1 0 3 , 1 9 ] [ 1 0 C0IR7.C25L]ES(4)[96,18][96,19][108 CONCENTRATION(10)[34,8][75,1 8][76,23][76,24][105,4][106 BUMPING(15)[12,4][12,15][73, 9] [73,17][74,8][74,11][74,1 CCECIL."I(N1G) [(110) [57,182,2] 1 ] C,I3R]C[1U0L8A,1R1(]2)[21,20][24,20] ,8][111,24][111,25][115,24] [116,9] 6][74,17][79,23][79,24][80, 3][84,15][86,20][87,22][117 CE8N][T1E4R,!283)[]1[146,1,127][]1[146,1,252][]1[147,1, CCIIRRCCUUMMFSETRAENNCCEES((11))[[7202,,165] ] CCOONNCCEENPTTR(lA)[T19IO,1N9S] (2)[8,7][116,6 ,14] BUNDLE(8)[103,6][108,18][113 C6E]R[1T1A2I,N3](3)[62,25][63,11][63, CCLLAAMRIPF(I1C)[A3T1,I1O0N] (2)[88,23][118, CCOONNCCEEPPTTUUALAILZEIZDI(N1G)[(11)5[1,251,2]0] ,17][118,16][118,24][119,6] [119,7][119,10] C1E4R] TAINLY(5)[15,13][17,17][4 C1L7A] RIFY(1)[96,4] CCO0NNCCLEURDNEEDD((1l))[[9835,,1145]] BUNDLES!1)[119,16] BURNED(19)[44,24][45,24][46, C8E,R2 5T]I[F5I1E,D1 4(3])[[6168,,1100]][2 9 ,1 0 ][2 CCLLEEAANN(E1D)[3(55),3[3]0,18][34,18][34, CCOONNCCLLUUSSIOIONN(S1()l[)[784,,61]0] 6] 9] [48,9][64,21][64,25][67,1 [68,22][69,9][69,16][69,1 C9F,R1 1(1] ) [ 1 0 0 , 5 ] C2LE1A][N3I5N,G1(18])[[8350,,260][]30,25][31, CCOONNDDUITCITOEND!!31))[[4189,,2134]][27,24][7 9] [70,23][85,24][86,18][86, 20][87,3][89,7][89,15][111, C1H1A] [M1B5 ,E1R3(]1[1136),[81]3[,17]6[1, 151,6]][[2105,, 7[8]7[3,152,6] ][35,7][35,9][81,21] C1O,N4D]UCTING!1)[11,13] 16] 2,128][]2[202,2,132][]2[202,2,147][]2[212,1,52]2[]2[12 C3L9E,1A8R][(399)[,1199,]1[03]9[2,221,5][]5[296,,131]][ CCOONNFIER(M2!)2[4)[06,155,8][]4[01,1176,]12] C C C 3,2.203][]26[,284],[62]6[,2241,]1[52]7[,275],[42]7[,25 C[L6E9A,R8]A[N10C1E,(11)5[7]1,12] CCOONNFJIURMNECDT!I1O)N[1(11)4[1,606] ,25] CCAALLCCUULALATETDE((l)2[)7[151,275,7]][118,18] 25 0] []2[ 28 7, 2, 20 5] []2[ 82 ,82,23 ]][[22 98 ,,17 6] []2[ 289, 1, CLIENT(3)[70,13][70,25][72,1 3] CCOONNNNEECCTT!I1O)N[S3!21,)1[382] ,25] CCAALLIBIBRARTAETDE!1()2[)3[377,2,51][]86,14] 2[320][,1229],2[350],[2310],[63]1[3,60],[83]1[3,102,9] CCLL0OSSEE(1D)[(735)[,1347],ll][39,6][82,18 CONNECTS!1 ) [ 3 2 , 2 5 ] CONSIDER!2)[17,16][18,12] CCAA1LIIBBRRAATTEIORN(1(4)[)3[376,4,2] 4][84,12] [[3312,,136][]3[321,9,1][83]2[3,110,2]2[3][23,111,2]4[ CCLLOOSSEEDS-(F1A)C[8E0(,22)0[4] 0,9][40,12] CONSIDERED(2)[96,ll][97,24] C0NSIDERING(1)[113,24] C[A1 0L1L.(133)][7[61,08 ]2[,842] ,2 0 ][9 9 ,5 ] 33 24 ,,16 3] []3[ 34 2, 9, 2] [03]4[ 3, 130, 2] [03]4[ 3, 147, 4] []3[ CCOLAUTSITNEGRS((31))[[14093,,66]][ 5 4 ,1 5 ] [ 5 4 , CONSISTENT(2)[71,10][89,5] CONSTITUTED(1)[27,16] C[A4L0L,8E]D[4(09,)1[154],[1940],[73]7[,93]6[,3177,4][] 46,.231] ][[3356,,32]2[3][53,71,28]][[3357,,2121]][[337 C108L]LABQRATE(1)[14,13] CONSTRUCT(l)[13,15] CONSTRUCTED!5)[21,9][21,24][ CqAq MiEqi(n1n6c)i[27Ql!l6][44,7][46,23] 1, 172] []4[ 421, 3, 6] []6[ 401, 1, 90]][[47 12 ,,12 61 ]] [[47 13 ,, CCOOLLLELAEGCUTES(6(2)[)6[402,9,]2[273][,1423],[1887],6 22,12][22,18][24,17] CONSULT!1)[64,5] [[4581,,1275]][[4588,,1196]][[4697,,1139]][[5608,,141] 1, 117] [] 7[ 735,1, 241] []7[ 746,2, 31 ]] [[ 78 50 ,,155] []8[ 705, CO[ 8L8LE. 2C1T]ED[(89 9) [,31 76 ,]7[ 9] [23,81 4,1]5 ] [ 8 1 CONSULTATION!1)[15,5] CONSULTING!S)[15,19][17,13][ [[16093,1.124]][72,10][77,12][95,14 21]0[]8[18,01,32]5[]8[18,11,84]][[8821,,75]][[8812,,11 8,2,121][]8[974,1,141][]8[170,210,7]][87,23][8 5633,.37]][63[,583],21][53,23][62,16][ COURT REPORTING SERVICES (919) 832-4114 BLOWING to CONSULTING PAGESAVER TM DEPOSITION OF JOHN DEMENT, PH.D., MARCH 12, 1996 Page 5 CCO0NNSTUAKCETR((21))[[5179,,2115]][70,25] 51 ,71]7[]7[21,21,94]][[7199,,2221]] [ 2 9 ,1 5 ] [ 3 C>O1N4T][A10IN2,(64])[51,11][84,21][101 C[O4V0,E5R][(4110),[61]6[,4107,]7[2][54,100,1][04]0[,44 CCOONNTTAAIINNEERD(!21))[[6500,,2154]][58,11] COV17E]R[4E0D,(234)[]3[49,97,]1[563][,45]0[5,43],10 CCOONNTTAAMINININAGT!E2D)![12)3[2,244,5][]83,18] CCOOVVEERRINIGN!G1)S[(225)[,252],9][24,20] C0ON] TAM[6IN4A,1TI3O]N[(654),[1257],[1695],[36]4,1 CCRROITSES!R2I)A[!114)[,1996],1[01]18,23] CCOONNTTEENMTP!L1A)T[6ES4!,11)1[7] 8,11] CCRRUYMSOPLTAYRL(1E)([1200,)1[08],8][8,11][8,1 CCOONNTTEINNUTAS!T2IO) [N8!21 ,)5[ 6] [,81 52 ,]1 9 ] 3[ 1] [184,,275] []1[ 9118 ,,92 5] []1[ 10119,8,1] [31] 0 7 ,9 CCOONNTTIINNUUEEDS!!11 )) [[87 25 ,,75 ]] CCUURBRICE(N1T)[(719)[,7177,]4] C1ON9T][R9A3S,T2!125][)9[767,9,6][]9[962,1,64]][[9936,, CCUUTTT(2E)R[S8!21,)2[101][88,32],21] 1,167][][9180,130,2]2[9][81,1066],2[949][,190][81,0134 CYCLE!3)[84,7][84,9][84,10] CO[1N0T8R,O1L8!]2)[79,25][81,23] D D D 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DDEEFFIINNIENDG!1(1)[)7[968,2,72]] CO,3U]N[T1E0D7!7,1)0[9][31,2037],1[927][,1111]2[,11016] DDEEFFRIANCITTIOIONN!1()2[1)[0941,,1215]][94,3] CO[1U1N9T.I1N5G]!26)[91,24][92,6][92 DDEELMIVEERNETD(!111)[54)2[6,1,l5][]6,4][7,l][8 [,993][.9125,]18][[9933,1,55]][[9933,,72]5[]9[39,49,4] 1,13].[19],1[]1[41,01,]1[]1[51,11,]1[1][61,21,]1[1][7, 9[984.1.116] ] [9[984,1,179][]9[98,52,28]][[9996,,156][] 212][.118] ,1[]2[31,91,]1[]2[42,01,]1[2][52,11,]1[2][6, 0[9]9[1.1070],15[9][91,0107,]1[89]9[,11090],[2120]0,1 311][.217] ,1[]3[22,8l,]1[3][32,9l],1[3][43,0l],[13][5 , CCOOUUPLNET!4S)([37),[1966,]8[]3[79,62,100]][[7966,,1185 410][.316] ,1[]4[13,7l,]1[4][23,8l],1[4][33,9l],[14][4 , CO[9U0R,S2E3!]4)[74,3][81,15][83,7] 14]9[.415] ,1[]5[04,61,]1[]5[417,l,]1[]5[24,8l],1[5][3 , CO[8U3R,T1!22]) [ 9 ,2 3 ] [ 3 9 ,1 6 ] l5]8[,51 4] [,5l]9[,51 5] [,6l]0[,51 6] [,6l]1[,51 7] [,6l]2[, C0O,U20R]T[1N0E,Y2(21]3[)1[110,7,1]9[]1[110,1,109]][[11 16]7[.613] ,1[]6[86,41,]1[]6[96,51,]1[]7[06,61,]1[7][1, 716][.712] ,1[]7[77,31,]1[]7[87,41,]1[]7[97,51,]1[]8[0, 81]5[.811],1[]8[68,2l,]1[]8[78,3l,]1[8] [88,4l],1[8] 9[ , 19]4[.910],1[]9[59,11,]1[]9[69,21,]1[]9[79,31,]1[9] [8, 11 ]][[9190,31,]l ][ 1[ 10 00 ,41,]l[]1[0110 ,51,1] []1[10026, 0, l,]1[]1[ 10171, l,1] []1[ 10182,,l1]][[110193,,l1]][[l1l 11148.1.1] ] [1[11159,1,1]][116,1][U 7,1][ D4EP, 3A]RTMENT!3 ) [ 1 4 , 7 ] [ 1 4 ,2 3 ] [ 6 DDEEPPEENNDDS!I1N)G[9(18),[2784,]14] DDEESPCICRTIEBDE!!61 ))[[2296,,147] []4 9 ,1 2 ] [ 5 0 , D1ES5C] RIB[E7D0!,1198)][[98,01,01]6[]3[18,71,71]7[]3 24 ., 11 41 ]] [ 4[43,41,21]6[]4[74,05,]4[]4[74,42,31]0[]5[ 4 46 ,,92 ]1[]8[ 55 ,71,72 ]3[]8[55 ,82,19 ]][[16 13 3, 2, 151] []6[ D1E1S3IG.1N4!]5 ) [ 1 5 , 2 0 ] [ 1 5 , 2 2 ] [ 1 6 , 1 D9ES] [IG1 N8 A, 1T1E]D[!610),[2648], 7 ] DDEESSIIGGNNAEDTI!O1)N[!113)[,2101]0,13] DDEESSTTRROUYC!T1IV)[E7!31,)3[7] 2,23] DDEETTAAILILED(1!)1[)1[39,,1144] ] DDEETTEACTI!I2)([21)0[513,7,2]3[1][0566,,46]] DDEETTEERCMTIIONNA!T2IO) [N7!31,)2[ 140] [47,35 ],1 2 ] D6ET,2E5R]M[1IN1E7!5,1)9[5][31,1148,]5[8] 1,20][9 DDEETTEERRMMINIENDE!S1()1[)7[160,16,43]] DDEETVEICREM!3IN)I[N2G3(,21)8[9][12,260,1][81]0[440,1,13 D3E]VOTED!1 ) [ 1 6 , 3 ] D2IA2M][E2TE5R,2(230][)3[232,9,6][]9[222,8,8][]9[225,1, 34 ]] [[9924,,280][]9[953,3,7][]9[953,6,1]6[9][69,53,]2[ 79,71,35]] [ 9 7 , 1 4 ] [ 9 8 , 5 ] [ 9 8 ,6 ] [ 1 0 DDIIAFFMEERTEENRC'SE!(1l )) [[19149,1,52 ]] D1IF2F]E[R2E9N, 1T6!1] [34)4[ 6, 3, 2] [44]5[ 8, 1, 45 ]][[15 21 ,, 21 46 ]] [ 5 7[,9195,1] [76]4[ 1,40]4[,9145,]1 6 ] [ 9 9 , DDIIMFFERNASCIOTNIO!3N)![12)[11,2126],2[120] 8,15][ D1IM08E,N1S6IO] NS!2)[33,7][108,12] DDIIRREECCTTIO(1N)![16),[88] 0 , 1 2 ] DIRECTLY(2)[7,17][88,14] DISAGREE!1)[66,3] DISAGREED!1)[65,23] DISAGREEMENT(1)[97,18] DISCHARGED!1)[28,24] DISCUSS!1)[27,22] DISCUSSED!1)[95,7] DISCUSSES!2)[68,24][93,18] DISCUSSING!1)[25,15] DISCUSSION!10)[7,8][9,22][15 ,24][39,15][44,22][61,10][6 5.13] [67,3][70,7][93,20] DISCUSSIONS!9)[15,14][15,15] [60,15][60,17][60,18][61,6] [66,2l][70,4][90,5] DISK(2)[lll,5][lll,6] DISMISSED.)(1)[119,23] DISPERSE!1)[104,10] DISPE1^SION(1)[109,16] DISTANCE(1)[96,19] DISTINCTION!1)[91,8] DISTINGUISH(1)[95,15] DISTRIBUTED!1)[20,14] DISTRIBUTION(1)[118,20] DIVISION(2)[64,3][64,4] DIVULGE!2)[53,22][54,6] DOCTOR!25)[6,9][9,16][9,24] [ 10,ll][12,ll][20,20][27,24] [39,24][42,9][43,21][52,18] [56,13][57,7][57,22][59,24] [64,8][94,19][95,22][108,5] [109.14] [109,25][113,6][114 ,5][115,21][117,12] D0CUMENT(2)[17,22][68,8] DOCUMENTATION(1)[68,21] DOCUMENTS!6)[6,20][6,20][49, 13][67,13][67,15][94,25] DOING!6)[15,3][27,21][36,10] [61,7][71,14][99,3] DOLLARS(2)[63,3][63,12] DONE!46)[7,3][9,18][11,6][13 ,11][14,9][14,10][15,25][16 ,15][16,23][17,7][17,11][18 ,3][19,13][23,11][23,23][27 ,4][36,16][36,19][36,21][36 ,25][38,12][38,22][38,25] [4 0,11][40,13][41,4][41,11][4 3.14] [53,11][61,21][65,7][8 1.20] [81,21][81,24][86,21][ 87,9][87,12][90,23][96,13][ 98.14] [99,6][100,16][111,15 [115,17][116,17][116,23] DOWN(17)[13,19][29,23][30,7] [30.14] [30,16][30,17][31,16 [32,23][35,23][35,24][80,10 [81,6][81,6][83,13][85,22][ 90,8][114,13] DR(141)[6,1][7,1][8,1][9,1][ 10,1][11,13[12,1][13,1][14, l][15,1][16,1][17,1][17,18] [18.1] [18,16][19,1][19,12][ 19.20] [20,1][21,1][22,1][23 ,l][24,l][25,l][26,l]f 27,1 ] [28.1] [29,l][30,l][31,l][32 COURT REPORTING SERVICES (919) 832-4114 CONSUMER to DR PAGESAVER TM DEPOSITION OF JOHN DEMENT, PH.D., MARCH 12, 1996 Page 6 ,1][33,1][34,1][35,1][36,1] EFFECTS(1)[78,18] [37.1] [38,1][39,1][40,1][41 EIGHT(1)[78,15] ,1][42,1][43,1][44,1][45,1] EIGHT-HOUR(5)[77,17][77,22][ [46.1] [47,l][48,l][49,l][50 78,12][79,3][79,8] ,1][51,1][52,1][53,1][54,1] EITHER(5)[8,20][21,16][25,14 [55,1][56,1][57,1][58,1][59 [29,8][110,11] ,1][60,1][60,12][61,1][62,1 ELABORATECI)[27,18] [63.1] [64,1][65,1][66,1][66ELECTRICAL*1)[32,8] ,23][67,1][67,19][67,25][68 ELECTRICALLY(1)[32,24] 1][68,24][69,1][69,9][70,1 ELECTROMICROSOPE(1)[119,9] [70,4][70,6][70,15][70,17][ ELECTR0N(7)[92,24][96,8][96, 70.21] [71,1][72,1][72,10][7 24][104,4][104,11][108,23][ 3.1] [74,1][75,1][76,1][77,1 119,16] [78.1] [79,1][80,1][81,1][82 ELONGATED(3)[96,2l][97,13][9 1][63,1][84,1][85,1][86,1] 9,22] [87.1] [88,l][89,l][89,8][89EMERGENCY(2)[79,7][79,13] ,16][90,1][90,5][91,1][92,1 EMISSION(2)[23,7][23,11] [93.1] [94,1][95,1][95,14][9EMPLOYED(l)[ll,19] 6.1] [97,1][98,1][99,1][100, EMPL0YEE(2)[11,9][62,18] 1][100,21][101,1][101,3][10 EMPLOYEE/EMPLOYER(1)[11,22] 2.1] [103,1][103,14][104,1][ EMPL0YER(1)[61,19] 105.1] [106,1][107,1][108,1] EMPLOYMENT(l)[62,24] [108.21] [109,1][110,1][111, ENCAPSULANT(2)[65,21][65,22] 1][111,18][112,1][113,1][11 ENCAPSULATES(2)[66,4][66,6] 4.1] [114,6][115,l][116,l][ElNCLOSED(l)[24,18] 16,16][117,1][118,1][119,1] END(7)[8,21][21,16][40,8][62 DRAW(2)[34,15][86,13] ,19][62,20][64,7][74,24] DRAWN(1)[86,16] ENDORSE(1)[17,3] DREW(2)[10,19][10,20] ENDORSES(l)[16,23] DR0P(1)[75,18] ENERGY(2)[104,9][109,16] DROPPED(1)[90,21] ENGINEERING(1)[14,8] DUCES(2)[53,4][53,9] ENOUGH(4)[9,25][48,15][73,22 DUCT(1)[39,7] T90 91 DUKE(15)[11,10][14,9][14,11] ENTAIL(1)[34,5] [14,22][16,16][16,20][17,5] ENTERING(1)[28,22] [19.21] [19,24][61,19][62,5]ENTIRE(4)[12,9][40,17][75,6] [62.8] [62,12][62,13][62,24] [85,19] DURING(23)[7,7][25,12][30,10 ENVIRONMENTAL(l)[14,8] [31,6][31,13][31,24][32,9][ EPA(3)[71,12][100,8][100,10] 32.22] [33,17][36,17][36,19] EQUIPMENTS) [10,15] [17,25] [37,17][40,19][62,16][71,4] ESPECIALLY(2)[97,13][98,25] [73.8] [74,4][74,6][74,21][7 ESSENTIALLY(2)[13,19][89,3] 6,25][82,19][82,22][84,25] EVACUATED(1)[75,17] DUST(3)[85,14][114,19][114,1 EVALUATE(l)[60,25] 9] EVEN(2)[43,11][89,17] EVER(6)[23,6][23,8][23,22][2 E E E 8,11][29,5][90,4] EVERY(1)[92,13] EACH(14)[12,16][29,22][30,5] EVERYTHING(2)[81,5][84,8] [31,23][31,23][32,23][35,24 EVIDENCED(2)[105,9][105,9] [38,14][38,14][40,3][44,5][ EXACT(1)[90,22] 64,3][86,24][101,7] EXACTLY(9)[11,5][11,25][13,1 EARLIER(9)[9,25][10,12][15,2 6][21,6][32,11][38,24][85,4 3][39,17][66,15][86,21][90, [88,7][108,7] 3][95,22][111,14] EIAMINATI0N(2)[6,8][118,23] EARLY(2)[8,21][90,12] EIAMINE(2)[56,16][58,20] EDAI(4)[110,4][110,8][110,25 EXAMINED(2)[6,6][28,ll] [111,3] EXAMPLE(7)[8,11][13,15][33,1 EDAXING(1)[116,22] 0][71,11][76,10][78,17][99, EDS(1)[110,11] 18] EDUCATI0NAL(2)[14,14][14,18] EXCEED(1)[76,25] EFFECT(4)[77,8][78,20][116,3 EXCELLENT(1)[40,4] [116,10] EXCEPT(1)[44,7] EFFECTIVENESS*1)[81,20] EXCHANGE(1)[81,9] EXCUSE(1)[107,14] 7,7][91,21][92,3][93,7][93, EXHIBIT(28)[10,3][10,7][10,1 16][93,23][94,5][94,7][94,2 3] [10,14][20,21][38,9][595,]1[95,4][96,20][96,25][97,2 4][59,19][59,20][59,21][59, 2][97,24][98,3][98,6][98,7] 22][59,22][60,3][60,3][60,3 [60,4][67,18][71,22][71,23] [71,24][88,24][95,24][99,24 [98.7] [103-,7] [104,8] [108,20 [110,12][118,20][119,8][119 ,11][119,13] [104,18][115,22][116,12][11 FIBERSC 49)[61,3][77,16][77,2 8,10][118,21] 4][78,9][78,25][79,8][79,18 EXPECT(2)[56,25][75,16] [79,20][90,21][90,23][91,5] EX,2PE0C]TED(3)[62,25][63,11][63 [91,6][92,7][92,12][93,9][9 3.12] [93,21][94,11][94,11][ EXPENSE(1)[62,14] 95.10] [95,11][95,16][96,5][ EXPENSES(1)[64,6] 96,16][97,3][97,11][97,21][ EXPERIENCE(2)[11,15][9?,25] 97,22][98,8][98,13][98,15][ EXPERIMENT(9)[11,13][60,24][ 98,19][98,22][100,18][106,7 68,25][69,6][70,9][70,10][7 [106,8][107,11][111,19][111 1,8][75,14][101,7] ,23][112,7][112,17][115,9][ EXPERIMENTS(2)[48,21][62,9] 115.10] [115,12][115,13][116 EXPOSURE(10)[9,14][76,11][76 ,25][117,6][119,10][119,15] ,15][76,20][77,22][77,24][7 FIELD(1)[101,18] 8,16][78,22][98,12][98,18] FIELDS(4)[115,10][115,ll][ll EXPRESS(2)[58,17][89,21] 5.12] [115,13] EXTENDED(1)[24,13] FIELDS."(1)[114,15] EXTENSIVELY(1)[27,20] FIGURE(l)[43,ll] EXTENT(4)[65,20][66,3][66,5] FILE(3)[53,5][67,ll][110,23] [66,16] FILES(4)[52,13][52,14][53,13 EXTRACTING(1)[88,15] [56,22] EXTREME(1)[110,15] FILTER(46)[28,4][28,6][28,9] EYE(1)[73,15] [28,10][28,11][28,23][29,3] [29,5][31,10][36,24][37,5][ F F F 37,13][37,24][37,25][38,3][ 39,8] [4.0,5] [40,6] [40,18] [40 FACE(1)[80,12] ,25][41,15][41,23][41,25][4 FACILITATECI)[30,6] 2,5][72,5][74,14][74,15][80 FACILITYCl)[14,25] ,7][80,12][80,15][80,21][80 FACT(8)[16,16][46,5][47,8][4 ,23][82,9][82,10][82,11][82 9.10] [55,10][57,24][64,16][ ,18][82,20][82,24][83,21][8 98,14] 6,14][89,3][101,6][102,3][l FACULTY(5)[13,3][14,5][17,3] 02,4][102,7][106,15] [23,19][63,5] FILTERED(2)[13,21][101,10] FAIR(6)[18,8][30,11][48,7][4 FILTERING(1)[25,14] 8,15][76,4][112,15] FILTERS(13)[29,8][29,10][29, FAIRLY(1)[112,25] 11][29,12][38,16][83,8][83, FALL(4)[39,11][43,17][47,3][ 23][84,5][85,12][85,22][101 73.10] ,12][102,5][104,23] FAMILIAR(2)[92,17][93,6] FILTRATI0N(1)[13,21] FAMILY(1)[14,23] FIND(12)[17,9][19,25][33,10] FAN(23)[32,6][32,7][32,7][32 [38.18] [47,25][56,22][62,3] ,9][32,19][32,24][33,7][33, [106.7] [111,23][112,13][114 8][33,9][33,12][33,14][33,2 ,14][115,13] 2][33,24][34,13][74,6][74,7 FINDINGSC 2)[9,17][16,24] [74,17][74,24][80,4][80,7][ FINE(2)[19,9][39,25] 80,8][81,8][85,9] FINISHED(3)[40,23][46,16][89 FASHI0N(2)[85,16][86,21] ,23] FAULT(1)[59,24] FIRM(4)[20,8][20,10][20,16][ FED-EX(2)[58,12][58,14] 67,6] FEDERAL(1)[89,21] FIRMS(1)[20,12] FEEL(1)[106,3] FIRST(10)[7,22][34,18][36,23 FEET(2)[21,4][21,5] [38.18] [41,14][41,23][43,14 FELT(1)[73,22] [83.7] [84,13][104,7] FEW(7)[20,21][43,16][55,10][ FIT(1)[22,3] 57,4][71,20][75,23][90,9] FIVE(15)[38,15][57,5][71,18] FIBER(29)[8,6][8,10][77,5][7 [74.8] [74,18][74,24][92,7][ COURT REPORTING SERVICES (919) 832-4114 DRAW to FIVE PAGESAVER TM DEPOSITION OF JOHN DEMENT, PH.D., MARCH 12, 1996 Page 7 94,5][95,16][95,17][101,5][ 111,22][112,19][112,22][118 ,18] FIVE-MINUTE(1)[74,21] FIITURE(1)[32,20] FLOOR!4)[34,6][87,3][87,6][8 7,14] FLOW(7)[36,24][37,5][37,14][ 71,16][73k23][75,10][76,3] FLOWS(1)[66,10] FLUX(6)[59,12][66,7][73,10][ 73,13][117,21][117,22] F0CUSING(l)[116,6] FOLLOW!1)[90,25] FOLLOWING(l)[43,20] FOLLOWS:(1)[6,7] F00T(1)[79,17] FORCE!1)[91,3] F0RGET(1)[36,5] FORGOT(l)[34,15] FORM!12)[18,22][19,8][25,6][ 39,12][46,7][56,19][66,9][6 6,18][94,15][102,17][112,18 [117,9] FORMS(l)[114,ll] F0RMULA(1)[63,17] FORTH(1)[101,8] FORWARD(1)[90,19] FOUND(11)[64,22][85,13][95,1 6] [101,14][102,6][105,19][1 07,9][111,19][111,24][112,8 [112,16] FOUR(3)[21,4][33,13][36,8] FRAME(1)[46,25] FRANKLY(4)[46,12][47,25][66, 25][90,24] FREE!1)[63,6] FR0NT(5)[21,7][25,19][40,15] [40,16][99,22] FUNCTION(1)[95,3] FUNDED(1)[14,15] FURTHER(1)[42,10] G G G GASKET(5)[22,3][24,21][24,25 [25,3][25,4] GASKETED(1)[24,23] GATHER(1)[67,10] GAVE(3)[57,19][61,9][108,8] GEEZ(1)[33,13] GENERAL(4)[9,13][15,9][60,20 [96.23] GENERALLY(1)[65,14] GENERATE[3)[62,25][63,ll][63 ,20] GENTLY(1)[73,6] GETTING(7)[24,12][34,5][41,1 3][49,20][53,23][76,4][82,2 3] GIST(1)[8,B] GIVE(10)[7,10][ll,14][13,14] [20,22][21,22][25,22][33,7] [56.24] [72,19][111,21] GIVEN(4)[62,17][64,17][73,23 HERSELF(1)[50,3] [105,15] HIGH(1)[21,5] GIVES(1)[118,19] HIGHER(4)[8,11][8,13][71,13] GLASS(1)[65,19] [119,20] GLOVE(8)[12,6][25,23][26,7][ HISTORY(2)[48,16][69,13] 26.7] [26,11][27,14][27,16][HOBART(32)[44,10][44,23][45, 88,4] 4][45,12][45,23][46,6][46,2 GL0VE-B0X(3)[19,17][19,18][2 2][47,4][47,8][47,19][48,5] 1,3] [50,10][50,19][50,22][51,15 GLOVED(l)[26,6] [51,19][51,20][55,22][56,3] GL0VES(9)[26,ll][26,14][26,l [56,12][57,24][57,25][58,19 6] [26,21][26,23][27,4][27[,614,9][71,20][73,9][79,23][ 0] [27,13][80,20] 80,3][80,19][85,3][85,17][1 GOES(3)[25,7][64,5][105,23] 06,15] GONE(3)[84,24][90,20][117,7] HOLD(2)[31,10][66,13] GOOD(4)[6,9][6,10][16,9][19, HOLDS(l)[65,24] 3] HOLE(l)[25,24] G0VERNMENT(1)[76,7] HOOKS(l)[28,18] GR1A2D] UATE!3)[10,19][11,7][11, HOPEFULLY(1)[64,6] HORIZONTAL(2)[80,15][80,17] GRANTS(2)[63,3][63,8] HOUR(l)[75,7] GRAPH(1)[118,19] HOURS(l)[78,15] GRAY(1)[97,17] HOUSE(3)[28,18][28,19][36,5] GREAT(1)[106,8] HOUSEKEEPING(1)[72,6] GREATER(11)[36,16][36,18][93 HOUSING(l)[33,ll] ,8][93,17][93,24][94,5][94, HYGIENE(2)[11,8][14,17] 7] [95,16][97,22][115,24]H[Y1G1IENISTS(1)[18,11] 6.7] HYPOTHETICAL(2)[97,20][98,5] GRIDS(1)[105,25] GROSS(3)[63,14][109,6][109,1 I I I 1] GROUP(4)[19,16][57,13][91,12 [102,14] GROUPS(2)[57,15][57,18] GUESS(10)[7,15][17,9][22,3][ 34,15][60,20][62,5][102,21] [106,11][116,4][119,6] H H H H-E-P-A(l)[28,6] HALF(6)[11,24][21,4][33,8][7 5,7][92,13][95,5] HAND(4)[25,19][26,5][41,4][8 8 8] HAND-CARRIED!1)[58,13] HANDING(1)[39,18] HANDS(2)[12,5][80,20] HANDS-0N(1)[11,14] HANGS!1)[71,19] HAPPEN(2)[12,19][62,19] HARD(1)[108,18] HASN'T(1)[53,15] HAVING(5)[6,5][34,9][46,22][ 89,6][113,15] HEADING(4)[102,10][103,16][1 05,12][112,4] HEALTH(4)[9,7][11,8][13,4][1 4,16] HEAR(1)[56,25] HBLD(1)[88,5] HELPED(2)[11,10][11,13] HEPA(7)[28,4][28,6][28,24][2 9,3][29,10][29,11][82,17] I'LL(2)[59,9][69,23] ID(3)[68,10][101,18][104,21] IDEA(23)[16,3][22,22][23,22] [27,9][27,12][33,19][33,21] [34,7][43,12][45,8][47,18][ 48,4][48,8][48,16][48,22][6 1,20][68,25][69,12][75,11][ 75,19][88,10][89,22][102,16 IDENTICAL(l)[31,18] IDENTIFICATICW(10)[49,15][50 ,9][50,23][50,25] [51,4] [52, 5][52,10][52,19][72,4][106, 22] IDENTIFIED(1)[55,25] IDENTIFY(l)Clll,3] IDENTIFYING(1)[51,3] II(1)[106,19] H,"(l)[106,19] IMMEDIATELY(2)[34,22][79,14] IMPORTANT(l)[82,3] IMPORTANTLY(1)[102,3] IMPRESSION(5)[28,14][32,5][6 1,23][109,25][110,5] IN-FLOW(1)[26,10] INADVERTENTLY(1)[59,25] INC."(1)[102,11] INCENTIVE(1)[63,23] INCHES(9)[21,5][22,4][22,6][ 22,7][22,8)[25,24][33,9][69 ,16][60,8] INCLUDE(2)[59,11][60,18] INCLUDED(1)[101,3] INCLUDING(3)[14,16][40,18][4 0,24] INCOMING(1)[28,23] INCORRECT(l)[112,23] INDEPENDENT(2)[31,23][96,19] INDEX(2)[98,12][98,18] INDICATE(4)[55,3][111,19][11 6,22][116,24] INDICATES(4)[28,25][93,6][10 4,21][116,25] INDICATING(l)[52,20] INDICATION(l)[118,15] INDIVIDUAL(2)[71,14][103,7] INDIVIDUALLY{1)[50,13] INDUSTRIAL^) [8,17] [11,7] [14 ,16][18,11] INDUSTRIES(2)[8,5][9,15] INFORMATION(5)[47,10][47,11] [47.21] [51,11][96,22] INGRAM(5)[20,18][49,21][49,2 2] [57,21][70,24] INGREDIENTS(l)[66,7] INITIAL(1)[74,6] INITIALLY(2)[31,22][91,8] INITIA:LS(1)[105,4] INPUT(1)[61,13] INSERTED(l)[29,14] INSIDE(17)[26,6][29,16][29,2 3] [29,23][30,7][30,14][30,1 5][30,19][32,20][33,10][34, 9] [35,22][51,7][59,4][69,24 [72.21] [82,5] INSPECTION 1)[49,7] INSTALLED(2)[29,15][37,13] INSTANCES(1)[40,11] INSTEAD(1)[98,5] INSTRUCTED(1)[70,22] INSTRUCTI0NS(1)[72,19] INTACT(2)[49,3][58,22] INTENDED(2)[17,24][72,22] INTEREST(l)[104,9] INTERESTED(1)[33,23] INTERIM(1)[100,10] INTERIOR(l)[81,17] INTERMEDIATE (1)[91,7] INTERPRETATION!1)[17,17] INT0(19)[21,14][27,25][28,3] [29.14] [34,6][35,11][42,22] [46.23] [48,18][53,23][64,5] [77.21] [80,20][81,15][84,5] [87.24] [88,3][92,8][99,11] INVOLVED!9)[13,9][13,13][15, 10] [15,12][18,11][23,10][32 ,6][39,22][68,25] INVOLVEMENT!1)[18,7] INVOLVING!2)[71,14][117,13] INWARD(1)[80,14] ITSELF!11)[20,22][21,4][24,1 3][40,6][41,20][42,11][72,5 [80.15] [102,3][110,25][111, 3] J J J JACOBS(1)[20,10] COURT REPORTING SERVICES (919) 832-4114 FIVE-MINUTE to JACOBS PAGESAVER TM DEPOSITION OF JOHN DEMENT, PH.D., MARCH 12, 1996 Page 8 JACOBS:(22)[18,22][19,7][25, [113,24][115,25][118,20] [110,10][113,4][114,9][115, MAXIMUM!1)[109,9] 6][39,12][46,7][56,15][59,1 LENGTH/DIAMETER(1)[92,5] 9][59,21][66,9][66,18][67t2 LESLIE!1)[8,22] ujtiis^^tne.sjcng.siti MEANS(6)[49,5][90,14][105,8] 19,20] [106,21][110,22][119,11] 3][71,22][88,23][94,14][104 LESS(12)[92,12][92,14][94,12 LOOKED!8)[46,3][49,7][52,13] MEASURED!1)[117,3] ,18][108,3][108,8][109,23][ [95,5][95,11][95,17][96,11] [54,3][54,9][54,11][54,13][ MEASUREMENT^)[92,8][92,21][ 21212] ,18][117,9][118,23][119, [96,16][97,6][97,11][115,25 65,11] 92,22] [116.9] LOOKING!17)[7,19][38,17][42, MEDICAL!5)[14,12][14,23][16, JANUARY(3)[6,13][6,16][65,14 LESSER!1)[36,17] 18][48,25][59,22][67,9][71, 17][16,22][17,5] J0HN(1)[6,4] LET'S(6)[42,21][57,5][71,20] 24] [75,10][96,25][97,20][M1E0DICINE!3)[8,17][14,17][14, J0URNA1(5)[8,16][9,4][9,6][9 [95,22][97,20][101,15] 3,8][103,13][107,8][108,14] 24] 8][17,12] LETTER!8)[49,16][50,4][59,23 [108,22][110,17][112,3] MEMBER!3)[13,3][14,5][17,4] [67.18] [68,3][68,24][107,18 LORI(10)[12,24][13,3][13,8][ MEMBERS(2)[23,19][90,5] K K K [107.18] 15,4][15,10][17,19][18,7][2 MEMORY(l)[65,13] LETTERED(1)[116,18] 2,25][23,15][117,17] MENTIONED!8)[11,4][22,12][24 KEEP(3)[33,20][34,4][34,7] KEPT(1)[89,5] LETTERS(3)[10,8][10,9][110,1 LORI'S(2)[23,13][23,14] 8] LOSE(2)[93,ll][93,12] ,20][46,25][76,17][76,19][9 0,11][94,19] KIND(10)[9,24][53,15][55,23] LEVEL(3)[73,24][106,19][106, LOW(2)[106,3][106,5] MESOTHELIOMA!3)[7,19][8,3][9 [55,25][56,7][56,18][64,10] 23] LOWER!5)[30,20][102,19][102, ,3] [64,15][65,4][90,9] LIBRARY(2)[19,24][19,25] 25] [105,11][110,17] METER(2)[37,3][37,4] KNEW(2)[71,8][76,4] LID(1)[41,25] LUNG(1)[9,3] METHOD(19)[77,6][91,22][92,6 KNOWING!1)[57,23] LIGHT!2)[68,18][119,15] [92,25][93,15][93,20][94,4] KNOWLEDGE!13)[11,19][14,25][ LIKELY(2)[98,3][98,9] !M M M [94.20][98,12][98,25][99,5] 20,12][29,5][29,9][50,4][50 LIMIT(13)[75,12][76,11][76,1 [99,9][99,12][100,10][100,1 ,6][52,4][59,9][63,18][76,6 5][76,20][77,25][78,16][78, MAGNIFICATIONS!1)[119,20] 1][100,15][100,17][100,21][ [88,20][89,12] 22][79,12][79,15][90,14][93 MAINLY!1)[101,25] 100,23] ,19][95,12][96,12] MAINTAIN!1)[12,17] METH0DS(3)[92,18][94,16][98, L L L LIMITATION(1)[71,18] MANNER!2)[72,20][85,20] 23] LIMITATIONS!1)[97,10] MANUFACTURED!2)[47,8][57,24] MICROGRAPHS!4)[115,7][115,14 LAB(5)[88,14][88,17][88,22][ LIMITED(1)[119,18] MANUFACTURER^) [27,9][44,19] [115,16][115,19] 103,14][117,23] LIMITING(1)[18,23] [55,21] MICROMETERS!3)[92,7][92,13][ LAB'S(1)[106,21] LINE(1)[100,4] MANUFACTURERS!2)[45,25][56,1 95,6] LABEL(2)[51,10][51,11] LINES(1)[101,5] y 0] MICRON!2)[106,23][109,10] LABELLED!1)[59,23] LIP(2)[21,25][25,8] MARCH!5)[6,25][10,3][10,8][2 MICRONS!14)[93,8][93,24][94, LABELS(1)[57,8] LIST!5)[47,22][50,7][50,9][5 2.23] [59,23] 6] [95,17][95,18][97,6][97,2 LABORATORY!9)[14,10][28,19][ 2,19][67,16] MARKED!4)[68,12][95,24][99,2 3][97,23][109,4][113,9][113 30,24][60,9][60,12][65,8][7 LISTED!3)[38,21][67,13][72,1 4][110,14] ,15][113,20][115,25][116,7] 2.10] [83,17][111,18] 3] MATCH(1)[72,17] MICRONS."(1)[112,5] LABORATORY,"(1)[60,il] LISTING!6)[47,12][47,13][47, MATERIAL(54)[18,4][21,8][21, MICROSCOPE(4)[93,4][96,18][9 LABS(2)[13,18][104,14] 15][47,16][49,15][103,19] 10][21,14][21,18][22,10][23 7,8][108,23] LAPEL(1)[71,15] LITERATURE!2)[7,16][65,18] ,24][24,22][24,25][25,14][2 MICROSCOPES!1)[98,4] LARGE(1)[28,9] LITERS!5)[36,11][71,4][71,7] 6,7][26,24][27,3][27,12][27 MICROSCOPY!11)[68,19][92,24] LAST(U)[6,23][7,7][8,23][9, [71.18] [75,19] ,15][30,25][33,20][34,4][34 [96,8][96,24][98,10][103,22 5][9,16][16,14][67,14][67,1 LITTLE(5)[11,23][13,14][34,9 ,8][34,11][53,10][53,22][54 [104,4)[106,23][119,15][119 4][74,7][90,23][118,8] [40,7][72,25] 1 ,12][56,16][59,12][60,9][64 ,16][119,19] LATER(2)[33,19][60,4] LIVE(1)[63,6] ,17][64,19][64,24][65,8][65 MICROSCOPY,"(1)[103,17] LAW(5)[20,12][20,16][91,3][9 LOCATED!3)[32,12][80,9][82,1 ,24][66,11][69,17][69,24][6 MIDDLE!1)[112,4] 1.11] [91,14] 8] 9,25][70,8][73,6][73,10][73 MIGHT(5)[33,10][53,ll][57,20 LAYING!1)[80,25] LONG(12)[11,21][12,23][21,4] ,13][73,22][78,14][83,16][8 [62.20] [78,18] LAYODT(1)[13,20] [24,10][34,20][35,8][63,9][ 5,12][85,13][87,7][87,19][8 MILLETTE(9)[67,19][67,25][69 , ] LEAK(1)[24,24] LEASED(1)[13,8] 2691,128][73,18][77,7][82,4][8 7.23] [88,10][88,13][88,19][ 9][70,4][70,6][70,16][70,1 88.20] [106,4][110,23][115,9 7] [70,21][89,8] LEAST!17)[7,9][12,18][22,20] LONGER(5)[92,7][lll,21][112, MATERIALS!17)[11,11][24,18][ MILLETTE1S(1)[68,24] [45.10] [46,22][50,17][55,20 19][112,22][118,18] 30,15][32,3][41,9][45,15)[4 MILLION!1)[79,17] [55,23][56,10][65,20][66,5] LONGEST!1)[108,16] 5.20] [52,12][53,5][58,3][67 MILLS!1)[98,14] [66,16][66,19][73,24][79,25 LONGO(10)[54,23][66,24][89,1 ,10][78,17][78,19][81,6][83 MIND(1)[91,10] [87.11] [92,5] 6] [90,5][95,14][100,21][1,0124][117,18][119,12] MINIMAL!1)[96,5] LEFT(15)[28,17][30,9][30,20] ,15][108,21][114,6][116,16] MATERIALS,"(1)[45,17] MINIMUM!4)[92,20][92,22][93, [31,5][31,6][31,16][37,11][ LONGO'S(5)[60,12][72,10][101 MATRIX!8)[103,6][108,12][109 5] [109,9] 69.18] [83,3][83,16][102,19] ,3][103,14][111,18] ,7][109,12][118,24][119,6][ MINUTE!7)[33,22][36,8][36,12 [102,25][103,16][104,20][10 LOOK(26)[25,18][28,5][38,7][ 119,10][119,12] [71,5][71,7][71,18][75,19] 6.18] LENGTH(13)[94,6][97,23][107, 14][108,16][109,4][109,6)[1 09,9][113,9][113,15][113,19 47,25][59,9][72,7][75,22][8 MATRIX-!1)[118,15] 9,24][98,15][99,25][101,15] MATRIX-BUNDLE(2)[113,11][113 [104.9] [104,16][106,12][106 ,22] ,25][107,13][108,15][109,14 MATRIX/BUNDLE!1)[107,21] MIN]U[T5E7S,(1370])[[3375,,1170]][[3376,,273]][[3771,, 20][72,24][73,16][74,4][74, 6] [74,8][74,16][74,18][74,2 COURT REPORTING SERVICES (919) 832-4114 JACOBS: to MINUTES t-- 1 ,----- , CD 1-----\ e - rH rH CM > rH rH 1 to to 1-- M-- 1CD *** - .__ 1tO S CM 1-- 1f-- 11__ 1 CM C - >-- 1----- 11__ 1rH * r~ -i f-- -J O* rH 1-----1>-- 1 - CD 1-- 1tO t o 1-- II-- j s rH o- rH CM 00 T * t o __ 1rH CM CM CD i-- 1 rH rH - rH 1----- 1 rH ^ t o - t o 1__ CM - CO tO r -1-----1 to Page MISSED to PAYS (919) 832-4114 DEPOSITION OF JOHN DEMENT, PH .D ., MARCH 12, 1996 COURT REPORTING SERVICES I CD I-- I 00 1-- 1 iO H K5 H ^ H to 00 ^ I-- > CM CM -- I to - rH - <o 01 CO - CD i--H -- I O i ^ rH > ' - M -----IC O O i '-- n__ ii-- I i.---- j.So>i rH tO -- I I O tH l - j "-- 'C M 00 r H -- W - - - P_ rH P [ O -H (O < ^ H N tO 00 H P CE--OI*i---- 1i1i---- iIi*---- I Do H > CO o o_ CM to to 1__ i 1-- 1 <* CM to rH f-- " 1 rH rH rH ~ S C - CM t o CM - - e*- t o t o O f - f > Q N M P N CM ^ 1-- 1i-- j L-- l 1__ 11__ 1rH ^ 1__ 1C~" r H L-- II----- 11-- 1-----11" 1-----1i___1rH L-- l l - H l -- 1 1-- 1-- 1t o rH S CM 1-- 1rH 1-- 1CM 1-- 1 1-- t o CM rH rH rH CM CM rH G rH tO r H rH > tH 1-- 1CM * rH rH - S rH t o 00 to - -- 1 - C - - <* t o t o ( O C O f - H ^ C O i P C M CM rH 1__ J i-- Jl__ Ii-- It__1O rH tO __ C"- r H 1-- J r -- 1r- ! 1----- II-----If-- II__ 1 >J-- II-----M-- 1 1-- 1r ~ i Q> CM t o t o CO 1-- 11*- r 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Oi ' g< CHO O- in I--C OI O^i to CM rH Oi rc* - rH rH L-- t o ZO CHO .IS; ^z Cz O U rH EH tH - E-* CO - fc- Z o o H K5 W ' < -- cc H H IO O) zH S^ Ho O CO -- l O C C O pq -- O i pq W t - i Oi h CO CO << eu d C pc 55: v t C\J w t > H H i -pq ' KI H< bPQ nto *"3 I-I PQ CD t -*-3 - pq W PQ > PQ 00000 O O O O O O O "88888 t-- 1 00 1-- 1 1-- 1 i-- <1-- j i __ 1CD 1-- 11-- 1 t o r -- 1C - i__i-- Il Z t o rH 1-----1 to (-- 11-- 11-- 11__ 1t o t o CO s t O rH 1-- 1IO II rH - S CM ^ C-- tO 1-- 1 > CM 1----- 1rH * - t o CM II -> S rH 1----- I rH > rH tO tO * 1-- 11_-- 1 t o S rH -> II t o 00 - oT to - r * - * H C*" t o 1-- 1 to - s II t -- U_J ^ to I-- 1 rH t o t o S CO rH CM - 1-- j i -- j S C-- r~ 1 h 1-- 11-- CO r -- 1-- - i r - i t o 1-- 1 rH 1-- J t o 00 l-- M-- J CM * 1-- II-- 1<0 1__ 1 CM II 1-- 1t o 1-- 1 rH 1-- 1t o rH O i CD i _ i r -- i i __ 11__ 1r --1r-- 1 00 00 r * t o 1-- Jl-----1 rH II 00 CM 1-- CM r* - * Oi r> 1-- t o 1-- II-- 1t o s 1-- ii__ 1CD > CM 1-- 1O i * *> t o to CO H r--1 o> Oil-- I<*tO* Oi 1-- 1 to COMi H CM CD CM tH C-- 1-- 1L__1 t o * c - rH 00 II I-- II--C--IOi S tI_oIQOi IlOi 00 03 to HCO OS) S I-- rH I-- ^ I-- M-- I << I-- I H rH r-- ir-- i ^ o> CD Oi to - to ^ CO O H m OI - * Z -I---"I IO* rH IO ttoo i_t o Isco so> HH-Oi CO I-- i0> 1-- 1 E-* O< SQ ^rHO i^ ^H"--* H H W ) s^CO Pi lu W ffi a NOi H -pE-qt oZ f 3e HHH HhH Q Z Z Z Z co- c0o 5 2>H Wt/3 o o o o o o O !-- O O se s: II rH tO II 1__ 1i-- i II 1-- 11-- II r * tO II *> rH II rH Il H H H<-- it O II 1-- i-- J II *4* -- 1----- 1 1__ 1CO 1__ 1 1-- t to 1__ >1-- 11__ r-- i to rH 1-- 1 1 -- 1t o CM tO rH IO CM r. <D r. r rH ** ** CD to s - s to 1----- I t o S C"~ 1__ J c - t-- 1 1__ 11__ 1CO 1-- 1 1' tH S r~ "i( 111 if 1 rH CM 1-- 1 1-- 1 O i ST-u to* 0O3i tO- CM r - rH H r--IOi I-- h-- I <t|* 0> G S 1__ I o i-- i-r * r^< t o I__ I r=t* CO c - -- I rH -- ' r H rH S ^ - - T- __ , >0> G IP --- O i I-----11-3 f - t I----- 1rH tO CD "--\| >i-1q cC/O5 H-pQq ssssr p q p q W I-- * Z Z Z U U -'U H < pq Z ^ H WWH W - l S3 >H <<< < pH Pu PLt CU P h IIII SSi rH-II-------I1troH I--rHIO-- i <0 Lr IIII CD rH I-- I -r-- iO IIII to oi i J O i Isto II II O i ~ 1O i IIIl I--toI *^Oi I i tOoi I f-- I s I CD *O i S Ie- -- j rH IIII sto to I I I----- I rH * O i I-- I t - to Oi Il I-- I I 00 to 1s- , 1s I o i o OJ zI--I0S - I-- I 1 I----- IL J ^ O I it o S3 I_t _'_t f__I pq s JIcO--i I s 11 o Oi o rH CM IIIl C<U <PU P<U -- I 00 r-- I 00 SH t0O3 rHH 1__ 1 1-- 1 CM r-- i C - rH S rH * CM - 00 CM CD 1-- 1t o CD 1-- CM CM r-- 1__ ir-- 1 CM 1__ ii- ~i r ~ 1 C-- t-- 1 00 1-- *1-- 1tO CM - tO rH to CO r * CM rH S rH to- O-i tOoi CoO c- 0 CD I-- I Eh s 1 -II-- I*-- ' CO rH r-- 1-- 1*H p q I-- J O w w pq^ CM CM p ^ CO r-u CM CO Pu I W 0) 0) P U Z H V__ II__ I HU O O Z Z Z PAGESAVER TM PAGESAVER TM DEPOSITION OF JOHN DEMENT, PH.D., MARCH 12, 1996 Page 10 PEAKS(l)[111,4] PEER(8)[17,11][17,16][17,18] PLACED(3)[31,22][41,9][42,6] PLANT(1)[113,3] 11 PRI0R(12)[18,3][22,23][23,4] ] [23.11] [27,20][29,24][43,10 PURPORTS(l)[68,18] [18,0][18,12][18,13][18,2B] PLASTIC(7)[21,10][37,15][57, [43.10] [43,12][61,7][77,14] PURP0SE(4)[29,21][33,25][34, [19.12] 8] [58,10][58,10][86,3][87,2 [101,7] 3][99,8] PL(12)[78,4][78,6][78,11][7 1] PROBABLY(l2)[13,19][16,9][16 PURP0SES(13)[14,15][31,7][44 8.13] [78,24][79,5][90,10][9 PLAYED(1)[11,5] ,15][22,19][54,20][57,19][5 ,16][44,22][91,20][91,22][9 1.14] [91,17][91,20][115,25] PLEASE(16)[20,2l][49,4][49,l 8,12][67,10][68,4][80,8][82 1,24][92,9][93,7][93,9][93, [116.9] 2][50,15][52,25][53,13][56, ,13][110,23] 16][94,9][95,9] PEOPLE(9)[14,16][26,20][60,1 18 ] [78,10][87,17][100,4][10 PR0CEDURE(4)[39,25][79,14][8 PUTS(1)[80,20] 5] [63,7][69,9][91,13][95,4] 4. 16 ] [106,12][109,14][111,9 4.24] [85,22] PUTTING(1)[21,14] [104.9] [108,22] [115.21] [116,5] PROCEDURES(1)[15,14] PER(26)[9,11][33,21][63,3][6 PLEXIGLASS(3)[21,10][22,9][2 PROCEED(l)[15,16] Q Q Q 3,12][63,20][71,5][71,7][75 4.17] PR0CEEDS(1)[62,11] ,19][77,5][77,7][77,16][77, PLIERS(l)[117,25] PROCESS(16)[41,12][52,5][52, QUANTIFY(2)[33,23][106,4] 24][78,9][78,25][79,8][79,1 PM(4)[68,20][97,11][98,4][9 7] [79,18][79,20][90,21][90, 8.9] 23][91,5][91,6][95,19][103, PLUG(4)[40,7][40,10][40,18][ 6][66,5][77,13][81,5][83,25 [84.12] [84,15][86,24][87,8] QU,A1N2T]ITY(3)[50,19][88,10][88 [87.11] [87,17][88,15][95,8] QUESTIONS(7)[20,22][39,19][3 19][105,12][106,8] 40.24] [105,24] 9,21][42,9][76,18][94,15][9 PERCENT(2)[112,19][112,22] POINT(11)[32,6][34,10][42,21 PRODUCE(3)[9,3][53,16][56,18 4,17] PERCENTAGE(3)[63,14][117,8][ [48,13][54,6][72,25][73,5][ PR0DUCED(3)[52,15][52,18][53 QUITE(1)[19,18] 118,18] 74,14][81,4][96,4][118,17] ,16] PERFECTLY(1)[39,10] POINTED(2)[80,13][80,i4] PRODUCTIVE(2)[63,22][63,22] R R R PERFORM(l)[49,9] POLARIZED(l)[68,18] PR0DUCTS(4)[19,15][23,8][23, PERF0RMED(7)[7,3][12,7][24,9 POOL(l)[64,5] 10][66,13] RAN(2)[33,16][82,13] [30.13] [38,13][84,17][116,1 PORT(8)[22,9][24,20][27,17][ PROGRAM(1)[63,23] 6] 28 .25] [32,15][32,17][36,6][ PROGRESS(1)[27,23] RANGE(2)[71,17][75,24] RATE(4)[36,17][36,18][73,23] PERI0D(23)[12,9][31,25][37,1 41.9] PROJECT(13)[ll,18][15,23][17 [76,3] 6][62,17][71,10][72,23][73, P0RTAL(2)[25,5][82,17] ,13][22,13][52,14][52,16][5 RATES(1)[75,10] 8] [73,16][73,21][74,11][74, PORTION(3 )[62,11][81,17][105 3,5][53,6][53,15][53,21][53 RATHER(4)[54,17][56,3][59,16 22][75,6][75,11][75,16][76, ,3] ,24][53,25][57,15] [79,14] 8] [76,11][76,24][77,18][77, PORTS(10)[21,16][21,17][21,1 PROJECTS(3)[11,10][23,14][23 RATIO(2)[92,4][94,6] , 10] 2 2 ] [ 7 8 , 1 7 ] [ 7 8 , 1 8 ] [ 7 9 , 1 2 ] [ 8 6 PERI0DS(1)[45,15] 9] [25,15] [25,19] [25,23] [26,' 11][41,4][41,6][42,7] P0RTS."(1)[26,4] ,17] ; PR0PER(1)[19,3] PROPERTY(1)[16,9] R A Y M O N D ( l ) [7,21] REACHED(1)[12,21] READ(6)[6,15][28,14][36,10][ PERMANENT(1)[32,19] POSITION(2)[80,17][89,4] PR0P0SE(1)[112,14] 66,25][75,4][109,24] PERMISSIBLE(2)[77,24][78,15] PO SS ES SI ON(5)[6,18][20,17][4 PROPRIETOR(1)[23,20] READILY(1)[99,10] PERS0N(8)[16,19][23,15][26,2 2,23][46,24][48,18] PR0T0C0L(16)[17,6][17,18][17 READING(1)[32,5] 3][49,20][49,21][54,21][57, POSSIBILITY(l)[105,20] ,20][17,21][18,5][18,6][18, READY(1)[30,15] 16][70,25] POSSIBLE(1)[104,8] 9][18,12][18,20][19,6][19,7 REAL(1)[79,11] PERSONNEL(1)[12,23] POSSIBLY(l)[19,20] [61.11] [61,14][106,19][106, R E A L I T Y U ) [ 9 7 , 1 0 ] PERTAIN(1)[76,7] P0WERED(1)[33,5] 22][106,22] REALIZE(1)[98,11] PERTAINING(2)[52,14][53,5] PRACTICAL(5)[92,16][94,9][95 PR0VIDE(1)[114,14] REALLY(16)[13,23][16,10][23, PERTAINS(5)[53,15][56,17][56 ,9][95,13][98,21] PR0VIDED(2)[6,23][58,3] 18][45,14][46,10][48,3][52, ,20][63,19][76,18] PRECISE(1)[97,16] ! PUBLIC(3)[9,7][11,8][13,4] ll]C54,9 ][ 59 ,4 3[ 65tll][67,l PH.D. (1 )[6,4] P R E F E R (1)[98,24] PUBLICATION(1)[8,20] I] [90,25][92,15][92,16][93, PHASE(15)[16,4][77,5][92,6][ PREPARE(1)[10,18] PUBLISHED(5)[8,16][8,18][9,4 II] [98,16] 93,19][93,22][96,9][96,14][ PREPARED(2)[47,13][67,16] [20,5][20,7] REASON(10)[14,21][31,4][34,1 96,16][98,10][98,16][99,9][ PRESENCE(7)[28,12][29,6][42, PULL(6)[28,20][36,3][37,23][ 3][34,16][55,6][75,8][78,21 103,22][106,23][108,14][108 19] [101,8][103,8][114,6][11 62,6][82,8][84,6] [89,6][93,20][96,7] ,18] PHD(1)[18,10] 8,6] PRESENT(4)[12,7][13,11][14,3 PULLED(5)[41,22][74,4][101,2 2][102,5][102,8] REASONABLE(2)[73,24][75,12] REASONS(l)[65,5] PH0NE(2)[12,19][49,18] [105.21] PULLING(4)[36,11][36,16][36, RECALL(32)[7,7][ll,25][27,6] PHOTOCOPIED(1)[108,6] PRESENTED(2)[100,19][105,10] 18][40,23] [27,8][33,13][34,20][35,6][ PH0T0C0PIES(1)[115,16] PRESENTLY(1)[16,12] * PUMP(3)[37,21][71,19][74,3] 43 .6 ] [43,9][46,9][46,10][46 PHOTOGRAPHS(l)[114,14] PRESIDENT(1)[54,23] PUMPING(l)[73,4] ,19][46,23][49,17][51,13][5 PHYSICAL(l)[117,13] PRESSURE(1)[72,25] PURCHASED(3)[26,16][26,17][2 1,14][52,23][61,22][64,23][ PICK(1)[87,25] PRESUME(1)[58,10] 6.25] 65,23][66,15][69,17][69,21] PICKING(1)[83,3] PRETTY(3)[19,10][52,16][64,3 PURGE(8)[24,3][34,23][81,7][ [69,22][69,23][69,25][73,13 PICTURE(1)[41,13] PIECE(5)[24,19][52,7][52,22] [98,17][117,22] P R E V I O D S L Y (1)[6,5] PRIMARILY(7)[13,6][13,9][55, 14][61,15][65,18][71,18][95 10 81,9][84,7][84,9][84,10][86 ,] PURGED(4)[28,15][36,6][85,19 [75,25][80,6][85,8][86,25][ 91.7] RECEIVE(7)[45,12][45,22][50, PLACE(10)[24,2l][25,14][31,l 1][63,17][63,18][77,11][77, ,3] PRIMARY(3)[16,19][16,20][57, [85,20] PURGING(7)[35,3][36,13][36,1 17][62,11][62,13][62,22][H 4,17] 12][84,5][84,8][90,12] 20] 6][36,18][36,22][82,20][87, RECEIVED(11)[43,24][43,25][4 COURT REPORTING SERVICES (919) 832-4114 PEAKS to RECEIVED RECEIVING to SEE-THROUGH Page 11 COURT REPORTING SERVICES (919) 832-4114 DEPOSITION OF JOHN DEMENT, PH.D., MARCH 12, 1996 CM tO i-- j CM CM i-- i tO 0 H 1-- 11--4 i-- i CM CM 4-H 05 1-----1 - a 4-( tO CO f-- a a CM t__ 1 iH t o 05 a CM CO a CO 05 CM a 1-- 1--4 CO tO tO --I G 4-4 4-4 t o CO 00 a l-- 11-----1CO C - 4-1 4--4 a L-- l 1__ 1tO 05 r-- r-- ii-- i 00 i-- i 1--4 05 i-- ir -- ii__ i G G tO IO i-- ii-- ii-- i-- l t o I O t -- 1-- i 05 H r - I a a t o 1-----1^ l-- l 1-----1 4--1 tO l-- l i-- i 4--4 tO 05 a CO CM I-- I CM c o t o IO ^ -l - CO *>l-- M-- i CO 0 5 t o I-- ir-- n-- i t - oo CO 05 I O r-- CO t-- t I-- I CM I__ I-- H 05 (M P - H H tO tO H s ^ u i l j 05 * O ) CM H '-- ' <D C - O ) t o t o I-- I CO 00 __ CO G rr\ a to r - o> 1-- 1 c~-- 1-- , , i-- i CM 1-- T 1-- 1 ,-- , 4--4 G r-- i 1-- 1 i-- i t o L-- J 1-- 1i-- i i--l 05 a t --4 e- 05 1-- 1 c- to to 00 a- 4--4 t-----1 t o --4 r-- i CO G CM 4 G i-- i CO CO C - a. CM CM 4---1 r - i-H a. a. c - a H to K5 4--4 a a CM a a 4--4 t o 1--4 i--i a a 4--1l-- l a a a c - W--1 05 CM CM 05 f-- i 00 05 o> CO t o to i__ t t o 05 t"H k__ i 4--4 r* 1 i-- i 1-- J OO 00 4--4 G 4--4 CD t o t o 05 05 L-- l a i--l t o oo 1-----1 05 > i-- i i-- i 1----- * i__ i i-- l 1-- 4 CO 1-- 1i__J l__1 i . 1t-- l i__ i 1 J I-- l r --i 1------l 00 1--4 4--4 r > t o 05 f-- i 1----- 1 r-- I f-- 1 a a > i-- l 1-- 1 1-- 11-- 1 1-----i 1-- 1I-- l co 05 tH 4--4 CM to CO CM -- t o 00 to t-- 1 o> CO t~~ a t o T--4 !----- c - c-- r--4 G 4--4 4--1 a i__ 1 a CM CM CM fO CM a. G a. 00 CM 4--1 T--I 4--4 t o a 1--1 CM 4--4 a a a 00 i----- 1 i--l 05 CM G a. to CM CO L__l la_> a a 4--1 Ga a a G co c-- G t o *--4 05 i-- i CM 05 G a. --1 4---1 1-- a. CO I----- 1 1----- 1i__ 1 4--1 t o > 4--1 ** ** 05 00 05 05 i-H i--l l--l CO CO 1__ 1 t o i-- i i-- i t o t o ` 00 CO 1__ 1 OO C - 1----- 1 OO CO C"> I-- l CO i--l t-- i i-- i 1-- M-- #t o l--J . >1-- 1 r n i-- i i-- c - (O i-- i i 1 CM 05 l_ J 1-- 1I-- l r-- i I-- l t o CO a 4--4 (----- 1 4-1 1-- 1 oo 4--< c - 1 -- i 00 1-----1U--1 i-- i a a I-- l I-- 11__ 1 c - t o 4--4i-- i 1-- 1l-- l i-- i r-- i l-----1 T--I 1--4 4^4 T--l 05 c - c 00 CM t o r-- i f----- 1 CM CO 00 t o 05 t o CM CM a. t-H 4-H a. 1...J 4--4 CO U ) CO 4--4 4--4 t o 05 r-- i 4--1 a CM 4--4 4--4 CM a a C-- a f - a t--4 t o C - 4-H CM T--I a l-- l t--4 l--l CM 1--4 a a 00 I-- 1 a G i-- i CO G a> G 4--1 00 f-- i 1 --( t o 4--1 t o t o C - a a a to to GG CM t o t o G 05 rr> U-- I r--1 t o 00 CM _ i o t a-- 4 4--4 t o a--41----- 1 CO CO a CM 1-- 1l__l CO CM i--l t- 05 05 t--4 CM 1--4 O at CO 05 t o CO ,-- s to i-- i c - 1-- 1 t o t o f-- 1t-- i v l__ 1i__ 1 oo N. c# i-- i HH ^---4. CM 4-4 CM 00 G L 1-- 1 CO 1-- 1/-- N a--V CO I-- l i--l t o I-- l i-- J L-- l a i--1 tXH CM 4aa- 4i-- i 4--4 1--4 1-- 11-- 1 00 a-- v T--4 00 1-- I CM i-- i t-- i 1-- 1i-- i 1-- 1i-- l CM l-- l o t o c - C - f-- 1 t o i-- i <o 1-- > -H 05 w I--l o 05 a-- 44^ a 00 00 k__ ! T--i >w' -_a- tH a-- ! CM t o G 4--4 l-- \ LL, cc CM G ,-- v o t-1 1----- 1i-- i 1-- 1 CM T--1 CM 2= CO CO c-- a. CO -J a C J hH W w 4--4 Q 05 4--1 4--4 1-- 1>-- >s c G s: Ki 00 o t o ' a 05 i--l t--4 4--4 rH 1--4 4--4 JU CO CM i--l 1__ 1 t--4 c - C - 4* <o c-- 05 05 tH 1-4 G w Ga >H 4--j 1----- 1>4 t o 4--1 8 G W S 2 ? S i 4-4 h 32 t-H HH I-- l CC OC w H-<xi i-- l 4--4 *--4 00 CO a < o *3 u CM i H i--l H OO t o c T 0O 1-- 1 1 1--4 CO CO o> 05 t o 05 HH - ** CO 05 < CQ 5 c 1-- 1 CO < i__ 11-- 1 o i__ 1 O o CO CO CO CO CO & CO a S s w G 1__ 1L _ J oo 8 8 1-- 11-- 1 w CM 1-- 1t-- i i-- i i-- l 4--t 1--4 w ra tCo- jj* g00 il to Si t0o0 II II r f II CM I-- I CO CM - 05 o> i--ro-->i tO II II II tICH 1_H I^C-- I_C - II-ItHO' 4t--oI *--h 1-- IC-- II II a I----- I l__l I----- ! 4^1 t o C - co I-- r o h g C"-a O0 )5 t--O II1------ i II II (C_MI4--at 05a CMa C*~- it_-4 C- I-- I - 00 It I__ 11-- I t o t- i II '-- ,, cm 05 i-H I-- I H H t- t* H 0 --tH*1c*-4- Lc_-J c -* II I) CO I-- r-- 11-- I w U - 05 1-- I t o 0 5 1__ llli C - C - G G r as 05 4-H *-t H tH CM H 1 4--4I-- I g t o lIlI 1-3 o to ^ CO^---05 it CM I-- I O Hg2C^hCOtQ --'^z C-- CP PQ r-- If-- lr-- ipq i_I, 3 CM H CM CQ PQ 0 5 CO I O M -- I i cbc.cbc, t--< ohrc> cm oc pc cc re H co co CO 05 i-- l f-- 1 05 1-- 14-4 OO a 4-4 t o a 05 05 I-- 1 to C-- 05 05 Gl I CO a a a CO t o 05 t o CO 1-1 1----- 1l__ 11__ 1 4--1 CO 1-----II-- M-- 1 4--4 CM t o 1-- 1 a CM CM G - 1-1 1--4 CO ^ a -- i*tf CO c- I---- M__11__i i-H 4-4 1-- 1 ^ tO G CO CM CM <-- a [O CO- CM CMa n t--4 05 tO CM t o CD t o 1-4 CO 05 - i__ i CD CO 1 a t--4 .----- 1^ r ---ii-- ii-- i 1----- 105 l-- i l-- l 05 C-- i-- if-- i r~n 4-H 00 l-- i 05 i__ i a CM CM G CM i__ *CD a t-- II--" 1C - CM CM 4--4 a I- "1 H Mi-*i G IH-- I CM r-- t-4 -ttO* s* C - I__ i l -I <o o> -- -- -1_i CO I-- \ CM CM I-- H-- t t o '---- i--I t o I---- 1 *H 05 - O -* 05 p O H to H 5 W co co T-i O o - i-- ii-- ii-- I C/3 CO -- n-- VI-- Pg g to t o to to CO <o Ii---- Il ^ to 05 t o C"- 05 cp to 1--1 CO 1--II--1 a CM to l-- iL-- l -*< m 05 G CO CD a t-- i o> CM H i-- CM i CM t-- 1-- i h-- CM 4-4 ^ 05 a a l-- ii__i r--> to a T-t to to a t--4 a <D 0> C-- CM '-- ^i-- i 1--4 S a 1--4 tO tO CM CM CM PAGESAVER TM PAGESAVER TM DEPOSITION OF JOHN DEMENT, PH.D., MARCH 12, 1996 Page 12 SEEMS(2)[56,6][75,4] SEEN(5)[69,5][69,7][85,5]t98 ,3][115,9] SELF-CONTAINED(1)[52,16] SEND(6)[49,24][70,7][70,16][ SIGNIFICANCE(1)[16,16] SILICATE(4)[65,9][65,15][65, 21][66,17] SIMILAR(1)[19,18] SIMPLY(10)[33,9][33,24][37,4 110,3][110,9][110,17][110,1 8] SPEED(2)[33,14][33,16] SPELL(2)[7,24][8,23] SPELLED(1)[76,13] [16,15][16,20][16,23][22,20 [29.24] [30,3][37,14][41,11] [43,14][53,7][60,6][99,3] SUB-PART(1)[100,5] SUBJECT(3)[17,17]f68,3][86,l 70.22] [88,22][89,16] SENDING(2)[90,7][117,18] SENSITIVITY(2)[105,9][105,12 [48.20] [49,15][60,24][72,23 SPOKE(1)[90,7] [74.20] [108,15][118,6] SPOKEN(2)[45,24][49,18] SINCE(5)[7,15][9,16][11,4][2 SQUARE(2)[21,7][28,10] * 6] SUEMITTED(4)[100,25][101,14] [101.24] [102,9] SENT(42)[20,13][20,18][38,3] 4,6][64,13] STAFF(2)[54,11][90,6] SBSTANCE(1)[61,6] [42,15][42,17][43,4][43,6][ SIR(12)[6,14][9,20][53,6][68 STAND(7)[31,8][31,12][35,16] SUCCESSFUL(1)[48,24] 43,9][43,12][43,16][43,18][ ,17][68,23][72,18][86,23][8 [42.6] [81,12][89,6][108,10]SUCH(4)[48,17][93,12][105,20 43.22] [44,16][46,20][47,15] 7,5][87,16][89,5][93,3][118 STANDARD(7)[77,9][77,15][79, [112,7] [47,24][48,20][50,24][51,24 ,22] 7] [79,11][93,6][94,24][97,8SUCK(1)[28,21] [52.12] [54,10][54,12][54,12 SITUATED(1)[16,12] STANDARDIZED(1)[105,24] SUED(1)[77,10] [54.17] [54,19][58,7][58,8][ SITUATIONS^1)[95,10] . STANDARDS(4)[76,16][76,17][7 SUFFICIENT(1)[75,11] 58,11][58,14][62,12][65,8][ SIX(2)[25,24][69,18] 9,19][92,10] SUGGESTS(1)[67,18] 66,25][67,12][69,14][70,12] SIX-INCH(1)[28,10] START(1)[84,15] SUM(1)[61,6] [88,14][88,18][89,8][89,18] SIZE(4)[20,23][95,21][96,25] START-UP(1)[79,19] SUMMARY(2)[72,9][103,13] [89,20][89,21][117,22] [103,10] STARTED(l)[26,21] SUPPORT(l)[63,7] SENTENCE(1)[114,14] SIZEWISE(1)[20,24] STARTING(2)[78,9][79,6] SUPPOSE(1)[70,20] SEQUENCER) [34,24] [38,20] [38 SKETCH(8)[10,15][10,18][10,2 STATE(1)[23,21] SUPPOSED(2)[51,19][52,20] ,24] 0][25,18][28,5][28,17][32,1 STATEMENT(2)[112,15][112,23] SURE(15)[7,7][7,22][24,4][26 SERIES(5)[7,8][41,8][42,4][9 5][34,14] STAY(2)[41,7][63,9] ,19][29,17][36,24][38,6][39 4.14] [94,17] SLIDE(1)[82,21] STAYED(1)[30,11] ,10][49,25][51,23][54,25][5 SERVE(1)[53,4] SLIGHTLY(1)[99,14] STAYNER(1)[8,22] 5,16][55,20][59,10][60,17] SERVED(1)[53,9] SLOPING(l)[21,7] STEL(9)[77,4][77,7][77,10][7 SURFACE(4)[64,10][64,12][64, SERVES(1)[65,21] SMALL(8)[30,20][31,8][32,7][ 7.11] [77,14][90,10][91,14][ 15][65,3] SERYICE(1)[15,17] 33,8][42,6][60,24][62,20][9 91,17][91,20] SWITCH(1)[33,3] SERVICES(1)[102,11] 8,17] STEP(4)[19,15][42,21][82,16] SW0RN(l)[6,6] SESSION(2)[7,7][9,16] SMALLER(l)[93,21] [91.7] SET(8)[11,11][13,7][23,7][24 SMITH(6)[10,22][12,20][19,21 STEPS(1)[37,20] T T T , ] ,2102][53,3][86,13][86,17][99 SET-(1)[13,6] [72,19][79,22][80,20] SO-CALLED(l)[96,9] S0DIUM(4)[65,9][65,15][65,21 STICK(1)[26,5] STICK-ON(1)[51,10] STILL(9)[6,'13][11,16][11,17] TAKE(26)[19,24][25,12][28,5] [28,16][30,15][31,12][33,16 SET-OP(5)[13,13][15,5][15,10 [66,16] [14,5][37,18][46,13][81,13] [35,8][42,5][46,4][47,24][4 [15.12] t19,18] SOLE(1)[23,20] [81.18] [87,15] 8,4][48,15][49,9][57,5][58, SETS(2)[20,25][42,12] SOLID(5)[24,15][24,19][40,5] ST0CK(1)[26,24] 13][61,23][69,8][72,6][82,4 SETTING(2)[13,9][77,14] [40,7][40,10] STOP(2)[37,19][81,10] [83,7][83,16][87,13][92,8][ SETTLED(1)[114,19] SOLVENT(l)[31,3] ST0PPED(3)[48,12][74,12][81, Q7 20112 14.1 SEVEN(2)[38,15][69,18] S0MEB0DY(4)[43,4][49,16][49, 8] TAKEN(6)[30,'l7][39,5][83,6][ SEVERAL(2)[28,15][29,16] 25][57,20] STOPS(l)[74,17] 83,14][87,8][106,15] SHARED(1)[20,11] SOMEONE(2)[49,18][49,19] STORE(l)[110,23] TAKES(lj[77,21] SHEET(9)[16,18][50,23][51,3] SOMETIMES(1)[104,15] STCED(2)[111,5][111,7] TAKING(4)[19,3][21,14][85,22 [51.17] [51,22][51,23][72,9] SOMEWHERE(2)[36,10][75,4] ST0RY(1)[83,3] [117,17] [107,5][116,25] SORELY(l)[73,20] STRIKE(2)[78,10][85,20] TALK(6)[23,15][71,20][78,24] SHEETS(4)[101,3][116,19][116 S0RRY(6)[9,6][14,7][99,21][1 STRUCTURE(15)[66,20][103,6][ [92,11][94,25][95,22] ,21][116,24] 09,19][112,9][117,3] 103,23][104,13][105,20][107 TALKED(6)[7,13][49,19][49,21 SHERRY(1)[20,18] SORT(13)[21,10][24,21][43,15 ,15][108,12][108,25][109,10 [94,15][96,4][99,16] SHIP(1)[67,25] [58,11][65,24][66,12][74,7] [109,20][113,6][113,14][113 TALKING(10)[12,23][19,5][36, SHIPPED(3)[46,17][46,19][68, [83,25][93,18][96,10][97,9] ,19][113,25][118,13] 13][59,18][77,19J[78,25][88 4] SH0RT(2)[79,11][92,14] [102,21][104,7] STRDCTDRES(22)[95,19][100,17 ,23][92,24][94,17][119,14] SOURCE(10)[9,13][27,24][32,1 [100.18] [102,20][102,25][10 TAI1CS(2)[102,19][102,25] SH0RT-(1)[76,19] 8][44,6][44,8][46,13][47,21 3.11] [l03,19][105,12][105,l TAPE(2)[39,7][39,9] SHORT-TERM(5)[71,8][76,10][7 [48,3][48,3][52,20] 9][107,9][107,10][107,11][1 TAPED(2)[40,25][81,4] 6.15] [78,20][78,22] SPECIFIC(1)[53,19] 08,22][110,4][110,8][111,21 TAPES(l)[80,21] SHORTER(2)[78,14][78,18] SPECIFICALLY(3)[43,6][53,10] [112,16][115,18][115,24][11 TAPPING(2)[73,5][73,7] SHOW(3)[50,7][115,7][115,8] [62,6] 6,7][117,3][117,5] TEACHING(1)[63,8] SH0WN(12)[28,17][32,4][34,13 SPECIFICATIONS(1)[94,8] STUCK(2)[12,5][52,23] TEAM(2)[34,25][54,11] [109,21][110,3][110,8][113, SPECIFICS(l)[95,23] STDENT(2)[10,20][11,7] TECHNIQUE(1)[104,10] 6][113,22][114,25][115,15][ SPECIFIED(1)[99,19] STODENTS(2)[11,12][14,19] TECHNIQUES(3)[104,3][104,6][ 115,16][115,18] SHUT(1)[36,19] SIDE(2)[41,6][41,9] SIGNED(l)[102,22] SPECIFIES(1)[100,18] SPECIFY(1)[99,5] SPECTRA(1)[109,16] SPECTRUM(6)[109,18][109,21][ STHDIED(1)[27,20] STUDIES(3)[23,7][23,11][81,2 : 33 STUDY(15)[7,18][15,6][15,20] 104,15] TECUM(2)[S3,4][S3,9] TELL(50)[11,4][12,25][15,4][ 15,8][16,5][16,6][16,7][16, COURT REPORTING SERVICES (919) 832-4114 SEEMS to TELL PAGESAVER TM DEPOSITION OF JOHN DEMENT, PH.D., MARCH 12, 1996 Page 13 10][16,25][17,8][20,13][20, 18][20,19][22,17][22,20][22 [20.5] [30,12][35,25][39,3][ 5,17][76,12][76,24][77,3][7 67,8][86,22][89,4][90,6] 7,16][77,18][78,16][78,18][ ,25][23,6][23,25][23,25][26 TEXTILE(1)[98,14] 79.12] [91,13][109,23][112,1 ,17][38,11][42,18][42,19][4 THAN(56)[7,4][7,13][8,ll][8, 4] 2.25] [45,10][45,14][45,16][ 13] [9,15][18,7][18,18][19,2 TIME,"(2)[55,17][77,18] 45.25] [46,8][49,5][50,12][5 0] [20,8][22,21][24,13][36,1 TIME-WEIGHTED(5)[77,17][77,2 2,11][53,24][57,15][60,22][ 7] [45,10][45,12][45,23][46, 1][78,12][79,3][79,8] 60.23] [62,7][69,11][70,21][ 5][46,22][46,25][47,5][47,2 TIMEFRAME(1)[56,24] 87.8] [90,p][94,23][103,5][l 2][50,13][51,12][51,23][56, TIMES(7)[22,22][22,25][23,4] 03.10] [103,23][106,24][107, 4][56,12][58,24][59,16][60, [30,12][44,3][51,24][75,18] 8] [109,20][110,7][110,12] 4][63,24][67,6][78,15][92,7 TISSUES(2)[7,19][7,25] TELLS(2)[50,22][51,18] [92.12] [92,14][93,21][94,5] TITLED(l)[107,17] TEM(3)[96,14][97,21][114,14] [94.12] [95,5][95,11][95,16] TLV(7)[90,ll][90,13][90,14][ TEMP0RARY(2)[79,7][79,14] [95.17] [96,17][97,6][97,11] 90,18][90,20][91,4][91,11] TERM(2)[76,20][90,16] [97.22] [104,12][111,22][112 TLV'S(l)[90,25] 21] TERMINOLOGY(1)[65,23] ,5][112,19][112,22][115,25] TM'S(3)[114,18][114,18][114, TERMS(12)[8,9][12,3][17,18][ [115.25] [116,7][116,9][116, 21.3] [21,14][24,11][27,19][ 15][118,18] TODAY(l)[7,12] 34.24] [45,5][87,11][95,19][ THANK(1)[108,11] TODD(10)[12,24][13,3][15,4][ 95.21] THEMSELVES(7)[42,10][51,5] [5 15.10] [17,19][18,7][18,16][ TEST(65)[10,15][12,7][13,7][ 4,16][83,15][85,13][89,19][ 19.12] [19,20][117,17] 15.11] [15,25][16,4][16,8][1 89.25] TOGETHER(13)[12,5][12,13][14 6,18][17,6][17,20][19,5][19 THEORETICAL(1)[97,10] ,18][37,16][55,19][55,23][6 ,6][19,14][19,22][26,21][27 THERE'S(6)[19,11][21,25][34, 5,24][66,14][72,21][72,24][ ,4][27,21][29,22][30,5][30, 15][97,16][97,17][102,21] 73,7][91,12][117,17] 10][31,21][31,23][32,23][33 THEREUPON(1)[6,3] TOLD(l)[8,14] ,19][34,18][34,20][36,14][3 THEY1RE(7)[24,23][25,16][38, TOOK(2)[27,7][87,20] 6.17] [36,19][37,9][38,14][3 4][55,20][86,3][94,12][104, TOP(8)[28,4][28,6][28,17][32 8.24] [41,20][43,10][43,12][ 14] 49.9] [54,10][55,7][55,8][55 THEY'VE(2)[20,14][90,20] ,10][55,13][59,14][59,16][5 THING(6)[13,22][36,2l][36,23 . ] ,12][39,9][39,11][100,4][10 2 10 TOTAL(7)[42,15][61,21][75,7] 9.17] [59,17][64,12][64,15][ [110,10][115,11][115,12] [88.17] [95,20][107,10][112, 64,16][65,3][70,16][72,21][ THINGS(8)[7,16][11,11][14,13 15] 72,23][74,11][83,19][84,17] [17,9][21,24][29,17][99,10] TOUCHING(1)[73,19] [84.20] [84,25][85,3][87,9][ [111,4] TOWEL(1)[30,24] 87.10] [88,24][89,9][106,15] THIRD(3)[89,8][100,4][114,13 TRADEMARK(1)[90,17] [111.20] [116,13] THOUGHT(4)[9,9][36,10][61,9] TRAINING(1)[14,15] TESTED(8)[28,11][42,12][53,2 [81.25] TRANSCRIPT(2)[6,15][6,22] 0] [54,8][56,20][64,11][71,2 THOUSANDS(1)[95,9] TRANSMISSION(4)[96,24][104,4 13[102,8] THREE(19)[21,4][24,11][38,15 [108,23][119,9] TESTIFIED(1)[6,7] [42.12] [54,5][56,20][68,22] TRANSMITTAL(1)[49,12] TESTIFY(1)[48,20] [69,19][71,17][89,4][92,5][ TRANSMITTING(1)[67,7] TESTIMONY(5)[17,23][34,17][3 92,12][92,12][94,6][95,5][9 TREATED(1)[91,10] 9,6][66,11][66,15] 5.5] [112,7][112,13][112,16]TRIED(6)[12,17][38,25][71,9] TESTING(75)[6,25][7,4][11,5] THRESH0LD(3)[79,12][79,15][9 [75,6][88,21][117,7] [12,3][13,5][13,11][13,24][ 0,14] TRUE(2)[18,10][58,5] 14,9][.15,3][15,11][17,6][17 THROUGH(34)[10,5][10,9][21,1 TRUTH(1)[23,7] ,10][18,3][18.,8][18,19][19, 1] [26,5][28,4][28,16][28,20 TRY(4)[47,25][79,25][86,23][ 13][20,9][22,23][23,5][23,1 [28,21][28,23][28,24][36,3] 109,25] 2] [23,22][23,24][24,8][24,1 [36.5] [37,23][41,12][41,22] TRYING(12)[15,17][17,9][33,2 3] [25,12][26,13][27,23][29, [72.13] [77,13][82,8][82,10] 3] [38,18][43,21][43,23][70, 12][31,6][31,13][31,25][32, [82.23] [84,7][84,8][84,12][ 14][73,3][73,5][76,15][96,1 9] [32,22][33,17][36,4][36,1 84,24][86,23][88,15][90,20] 4] [ 1 H ,3] 1] [38,3][38,12][38,22][40,1 [94.17] [101,22][102,5][102, TUBE(1)[99,22] 1][40,19][41,14][42,11][42, 8] [105,23][111,10][116,19] TUBING(1)[35,22] 16][44,9][47,4][53,11][56,1 THROUGHOUT(1)[30,12] TURBULENCE(1)[34,9] 7][59,7][60,16][61,8][61,21 TIME(43)[6,23][12,9][15,5][l TURN(6)[10,11][20,20][33,4][ [62,12][63,19][64,8][65,7][ 5,19][16,3][16,14][16,15][2 95,22][99,24][111, 9] 66.22] [66,23][70,5][70,23][ 6.25] [27,5][29,9][31,15][32TURNED(5)[33,18][37,9][74,7] 71.4] [76,19][82,16][82,22][ ,22][42,22][45,15][45,22][4 [74.17] [74,24] 85,15][86,18][89,23][95,15] [111,15][114,5][115,17][116 6.5] [46,25][48,13][55,15][6 TWO(33)[6,24][7,5][9,10][13, 0,4][62,8][62,13][62,17][63 19][14,20][18,10][18,18][19 ,16][116,22][117,13][118,4] ,18][67,14][67,14][71,10][7 ,22][21,5][21,16][21,16][24 TESTS(11)[9,17][12,18][19,17 3,21][75,9][75,10][75,13][7 ,11][31,17][33,8][33,8][41, 15][45,10][46,22][55,14][55 ,19][56,6][56,21][71,17][73 ,9][83,21][83,23][86,5][86, 21][87,22][94,16][96,18][96 ,19][104,12] TYPE(10)[13,22][25,13][30,25 [50,13][63,23][68,5][99,3][ 108,19][119,3][119,13] TYPES(4)[8,6][8,10][65,16][9 4,16] TYPICAL(7)[25,23][112,25][11 4,15][115,8][115,10][115,10 [115,11] TYPICALLY(1)[40,20] U U UH-HUH(5)[22,14][83,12][96,6 [110,21][113,4] UNC(12)[11,8][13,4][14,5][14 ,9][14,10][14,U][14,25][16 ,10][16,12][19,22][19,25][2 7,4] UNDER(17)[6,13][76,22][77,25 [81.23] [93,15][93,23][94,19 [99.6] [103,16][104,4][106,1 8][107,12][107,16][107,17][ 108,22][112,7][119,16] UNDERSTAND(33)[6,11][12,11][ 15.17] [15,21][17,23][20,9][ 26,7][26,19][29,18][32,19][ 34.17] [36,15][37,20][38,17] [39.6] [39,23][40,17][42,11] [44.9] [51,17][55,16][55,22] [55.24] [59,6][63,10][70,14] [72.9] [78,23][89,14][104,22 [105.18] [108,21][118,25] UNDERSTANDING(12)[10,14][60, 14][65,17][72,16][74,10][80 ,19][84,20][91,4][94,4][100 ,23][111,8][117,12] UNDERSTOOD(2)[9,9][43,22] UNIF0RM(1)[34,8] UNI0NS(l)[77,ll] UNIT(1)[39,8] UNIVERSITY(10)[14,12][14,22] [15.9] [16,17][16,22][16,25] [17,5][19,21][63,9][63,24] UNTIL(8)[33,18][33,19][41,10 [59,22][78,24][79,16][116,3 [116,10] UNUSUAL(1)[119,14] UP(35)[11,ll][13,7][13,7][13 ,9][19,14][23,7][24,12][28, 18][32,12][32,14][37,12][37 ,19][39,6][39,7][39,9][41,1 0][42,21 ][50,7] [53,3] [59,22 [67,8][71,17][72,17][80,21] [81,3][83,3][84,11][86,13][ 86.17] [87,25][102,22][112,1 1][116,3][116,10][119,10] UPON(l)[62,15] UPPER(4)[80,9][95,12][104,20 [106.18] COURT REPORTING SERVICES (919) 832-4114 TELLS to UPPER PAGESAVER TM DEPOSITION OF JOHN DEMENT, PH.D., MARCH 12, 1996 Page 14 COURT REPORTING SERVICES (919) 832-4114 USE to ZIPLOCK