Document YDgVQ88LD88D9028bOnj6gXzE

la the Circuit Court of Cook County, Illinois County Department, Chancery Division Fruit of the Loom, Inc., Plaintiff, vs. The Travelers Indemnity Company and Transportation City of Chesterfield, et al, Defendant ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) )89-CH-9846 October 27,1992 Deposition of WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE, taken on behalf of Defendant Travelers Indemnity Company. GORE REPORTING COMPANY Boatmen's Tower, Suite 1175 -100 North Broadway St Louis, Missouri 63102 (314) 241-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000070505 1 In the Circuit Court of 2 Cook County, Illinois 3 Coun ty Department, Chancery Division 4 5 Fruit of the Loom, Inc., ) 6 Plaintiff, ) 7 ) Number 8 vs . ) 89-C-H-9846 9) 10 The Travelers Indemnity ) 1 1 Company and Transportation ) 1 2 Insurance Company, ) 13 Defendants. ) 14 15 1 6 Deposition of WILLIAM B. 17 PAPAGEORGE, taken on behalf of Def endant 1 8 Travelers Indemnity Company, a t the offices 1 9 of Gallop, Johnson & Neuman, In t e r c o 2 0 Corporate Tower, 101 South Hanley, 16th 2 1 Floor, in the County of St. Louis, State of 22 Missouri , commencing a t 9:30 a.m. on the 27th 2 3 day of Oc tober, 1 99 2, before J. Bryan J ordan, 2 4 certified shorthand reporter and notary 2 5 pub1ic. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 2 WATER PCB-SD0000070506 1 APPEARANCES: 2 3 FOR THE PLAINTIFF: 4 Ms. Lauren B. Sobel 5 Spriggs & Hollingsworth 6 1350 I Street, N.W. 7 Washington, D.C. 20005-3205 8 (202) 898-5821 9 FAX ( 2 0 2) 6 8 2-1 6 3 9 10 11 FOR MONSANTO COMPANY AND THE WITNESS: 1 2 Mr. Gerard H. Davidson, Jr. 1 3 Smith, Helms, Mulliss & Moore 1 4 Suite 1400 1 5 300 North Greene Street 1 6 P. O. Box 21927 17 Greensboro, North Carolina 27420 1 8 (919) 378-5267 1 9 (919) 379-9558 20 21 22 23 24 25 GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 3 WATER_PCB-SD0000070507 1 FOR DEFENDANT TRANSPORTATION INSURANCE CO.: 2 Ms. Cynthia A. Matre 3 Haskell & Perrin 4 200 West Adams Street 5 Chic ago, Illinois 6 0 6 0 6 6 (3 1 2 ) 7 8 1-9 3 9 3 7 FAX (312) 781-9178 8 9 FOR DEFENDANT TRAVELERS INDEMNITY COMPANY: 1 0 Mr. David A. Schwartz-Leeper 11 Coudert Brothers 1 2 200 Park Avenue 1 3 New York, New York 10166 1 4 (212) 880-4400 15 1 6 THE VIDEO TECHNICIAN: 17 Mr. William Huelsman 1 8 Huelsman Video 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 4 WATER_PCB-SD0000070508 1 INDEX 2 PAGE 3 EXAMINATION BY MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER 8 4 EXAMINATION BY MS. SOBEL 211 5 FURTHER EXAM BY MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER 2 56 6 7 8 EXHIBITS 9 10 Papageorge Deposition Exhibit 1 . . 65 11 Papageorge Deposition Exhibit 2 . . 69 12 Papageorge Deposition Exhibit 3 . . 83 13 Papageorge Deposition Exhibit 4 . . 88 14 Papageorge Deposition Exhibit 5 . . 91 15 P apageorge Deposition Exhibit 6 . . 94 16 Papageorge Deposition Exhibit 7 . . 99 17 Papageorge Deposition Exhibit 8 . . 105 18 Papageorge Deposition Exhibit 9 . . 112 19 P apageorge Deposition Exhibit 1 0 . . 130 20 Papageorge Deposition Exhibit 11 . . 137 21 Papageorge Deposition Exhibit 1 2 . . 144 22 Papageorge Deposition Exhibit 1 3 . . 14 6 23 P ap age or ge Deposition Exhibit 1 4 . . 14 8 24 Papageorge Deposition Exhibit 15 . . 150 25 Papageorge Deposition Exhibit 16 . . 156 GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS MISSOURI 5 WATER_PCB-SD0000070509 1 EXHIBITS ( C o n t ' d ) 2 Papageorge Deposition Exhibit 17 * t> 160 3 Papageorge Deposition Exhibit 1 8 16 4 4 Papageorge Deposition Exhibit 1 9 .... 166 5 Papageorge Deposition Exhibit 2 0 .... 16 8 6 Papageorge Deposition Exhibit 2 1 .... 17 1 7 Papageorge Deposition Exhibit 2 2 17 7 8 Papageorge Deposition Exhibit 2 3 .... 18 2 9 Papageorge Deposition Exhibit 2 4 .... 18 4 1 0 Papageorge Deposition Exhibit 2 5 * 19 3 11 Papageorge Deposition Exhibit 2 6 .... 19 6 1 2 Papageorge Deposition Exhibit 27 .... 19 6 1 3 Papageorge D e p o s i t i o n Exhibit 2 8 .... 19 7 1 4 P apageorge Deposition Exhibit 2 9 .... 2 0 2 1 5 Papageorge Deposition Exhibit 3 0 .... 2 0 6 1 6 Papageorge Deposition Exhibit 31 .... 2 11 1 7 Papageorge Deposition Exhibit 3 2 .... 219 1 8 Papageorge Deposition Exhibit 3 3 .... 2 2 4 1 9 Papageorge Deposition Exhibit 3 4 .... 2 3 3 2 0 Papageorge Deposition Exhibit 35 .... 237 2 1 Papageorge Deposition Exhibit 3 6 .... 2 4 1 2 2 Papageorge Deposition Exhibit 37 247 23 24 25 GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 6 WATER_PCB-SD0000070510 1 MR. HUELSMAN: My name is William 2 Hue 1sman . I work for Hue 1sman Video 3 Deposition Company. The date is 10-27-92, 4 9:37 a . m . , we're in St. Louis, Missouri. 5 The caption of this case is Fruit 6 of the Loom, Incorporated, vs. Travelers 7 InderanityCompany. The case today is being 8 taken on behalf of Travelers Indemnity 9 Company, and I think we are ready to go now, 1 0 if Jerry wants to swear him in. 1 1 Whereupon. . . 1 2 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE, 1 3 of sound mind, having been first duly sworn 1 4 to tell the truth, the whole truth, and 1 5 nothing but the truth in the case aforesaid, 1 6 testified upon his oath as follows, to-wit: 1 7 MR. S CHWARTZ-LEEPER: Before we 1 8 begin, I'm going to ask counsel for Fruit of 1 9 the Loom if we have any stipulation that we 2 0 would like to put on the record. 21 MS. SOBEL: We reserve our right 22 till trial to make any stipulations. 2 3 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: Does that 2 4 mean that you will not stipulate a s to 2 5 objections,to reserve objections a s to form? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 7 WATER_PCB-SD0000070511 1 MS . SOBEL: No, we will be making 2 the objections on this. 3 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: Okay. Are 4 there any other announcements that anybody 5 wants to put on the record a t this time? 6 MR. DAVIDSON: I would like to go 7 on the record and state that my name is 8 Gerard Davidson with Smith , Helms, Mulliss & 9 Moore in Greensboro, North Carolina , and I 1 0 represent Mons anto Company and Mr. 11 Papageorge, and Mr. Papageorge is being 1 2 designated by Monsanto pursuant to a subpoena 1 3 issued from the Court of the County of St. 1 4 Louis here in Missouri in which they were 1 5 required to designate a witness most 1 6 knowledgeable with respect to certain areas 17 of testimony or designated testimony pursuant 1 8 to Missouri Rules of Civil Procedure 57.03 1 9 (b) (4), and Mr. Papageorge is designated by 2 0 Mons anto for that purpose . 2 1 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: Okay. 2 2 DIRECT EXAMINATION 2 3 BY MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: 2 4 Q. Sir, for the record , would you 2 5 please state your name and business address? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 8 WATER_PCB-SD0000070512 1 William B. Papageorge, 321 Pebble 2 Valley Drive, St. Louis, Missouri, 63141 . 3 Q . Are you currently employed, sir? 4 A. Self-employed. 5 Q. Okay, could you tell me what the 6 nature of that employment is? 7 A. It's engineering consulting, 8 particularly in the areas of use, manufacture 9 handling, disposal of polychlorinated 1 0 bipheny1s . 11 0 Mr. Papageorge, have you had your 1 2 deposition taken before? 1 3 A . Yes, I have . 1 4 Q When? 1 5 A . Oh, many times. I can't recall -- 16 Q When was the last time? 17 A . I can't recall the date -- the 1 8 last one? About a week ago. 1 9 Q And what was the nature of the 2 0 lawsuit in which your deposition was taken a 2 1 week ago? 2 2 A. I have so many, I confuse them in 2 3 my own mind. This, of course, involved O /I "S polychlorinated biphenyls , and as I recall , 2 5 it had to do with alleged contamination of GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 9 WATER_PCB-SD0000070513 1 property, the efforts to clean up the 2 property to meet f ederal regulations, the 3 costs associated with that effort, and an 4 attempt to, by the Plaintiff to get others to 5 help pay for this cleanup. 6 Q . Who was the Plaintiff in that 7 case? 8 A . Gosh, I draw a blank on this. Let 9 me think. 1 0 (Pause 11 A . (Continuing) I just can't recall . 1 2 Q . Do you recall where the lawsuit 1 3 was situated? 1 4 A . In Kentucky. 1 5 Q . Prior to that deposition a week 1 6 ago, approximately how many times have you 17 given depositions in cases involving 1 8 polychlorinated biphenyls? 1 9 A. I have never kept a score sheet. 2 0 As best I can recall, at least a couple of 21 dozen. 22 I do recall the Defendant of the 2 3 deposition, your previous question. 2 4 0 . Who was the Defendant? 2 5 A . E . R. -- let's see. Energy Recycle GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI ' 10 WATER_PCB-SD0000070514 1 Corporation, I believe, is the title. 2 Q . Do you recall whether in any of 3 the cases in which you've given depositions 4 involving polychlorinated biphenyls, any of 5 those cases involved insurance coverage 6 issues? 7 MR. DAVIDSON: You are ref erring 8 to coverage issues being litigated in that 9 lawsuit? 1 0 MR. SCEWARTZ-LEEPER: That's 11 correct. 1 2 A. Not, if I understand your question 1 3 correctly, no. 1 4 BY MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: 1 5 Q. Okay, in any of the depositions 1 6 that you have given in cases involving 17 polychlorinated biphenyls, do you recall 1 8 whether any of theparties have been 1 9 insurance companies? 20 A . I recall a situation in which the 2 1 buildingoccupied by an insurance company was 22 involved and it involved the cleanup within 2 3 that building , the costs associated with the 24 cleanup.That's the only insurance company 2 5 involvement that I remember. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 11 WATER_PCB-SD0000070515 1 Q . Okay. I suspect , given your 2 experience, you probably have a better sense 3 of how depositions are conducted than almost 4 anybody in this room. 5 Simply for the record , let me tell 6 you that I will be asking you a series of 7 questions today, after which Miss Sobe1, who 8 represents Fruit of the Loom, will have an 9 oppor tunity to ask you questions, a s well. 10 Also Miss Matre, who represents 1 1 Transportation Insurance Company, will have 1 2 a n opportunity to ask you questions. 1 3 I would like to ask you to wait 1 4 for me to complete each of my questions 1 5 before you answer so that you fully 1 6 understand what it is that I'm asking you. 1 7 If you need a break a t any time for any 1 8 reason, please just say so. I'll be glad to 1 9 accommodate you. 2 0 For the record, you do have or 2 1 Mons anto does have the opportunity to 22 designate this deposition transcript or any 2 3 exhibits used in this deposition a s 2 4 confidential for purpo s e s of the 2 5 order that ' s been entered in GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 12 WATER_PCB-SD0000070516 1 this case. 2 Having said all that. Mr . 3 Papageorge, I'd like to ask you, have you 4 spoken with any of Fruit of the Loom's 5 lawyers about this deposition? 6 A . I have not. 7 MS. SOBEL: David, I'm going to 8 interject now and ask, are you going to be 9 asking him to sign the confidentiality 1 0 protective order in this case? 11 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: No, if only 1 2 because I don't intend to show him anything 1 3 that I understand would be subject to the 1 4 terms of that order. 1 5 MS. SOBEL: So are you showing him 1 6 only exhibits produced by Mons anto in this 17 litigation? 1 8 MR . SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: I believe 19 so . 20 MS. SOBEL: Okay, if a t any point 2 1 we go beyond that, I may see fit to ask him 22 to , to do that. 2 3 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: That's fine. 24 MS . SOBEL: Okay. 2 5 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: I have no GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 13 WATER_PCB-SD0000070517 1 problem with that. 2 BY MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: 3 Q . Mr. Papageorge, have you spoken 4 with anyone a t Fruit of the Loom about this 5 deposition? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Have you spoken with anyone a t 8 Velsicol Chemical Corporation about this 9 deposition? 10 A . No . 11 Q. Could you describe for us your 1 2 educational background after high school? 1 3 A. I received a Bachelor of Science 1 4 degree in chemical engineering from 1 5 Washington University in St. Louis in 1943, a 1 6 Master of Science degree in chemical 17 engineering from Washington University in 1 8 1947, and I earned, as best I recall, about 19 twelve or sixteen credits toward a Doctor of 2 0 Science degree at Oklahoma State University. 21 Q. And when did you take those 2 2 cours es a t Oklahoma state? 2 3 A . I n the period 1947 to 1951. 2 4 Q - Okay. Recognizing that your 2 5 i s likely to be fairly 1 engthy, I'd GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST . LOUIS , MISSOURI 14 WATER_PCB-SD0000070518 1 like you to describe your employment 2 experience chronologically since you received 3 your Master of Science degree in 1947. 4 A. I will try that . The dates, I may 5 not be exact, but I'll be a s close as I can 6 recall. 7 After receiving my Master of 8 Science degree , I joined the Phillips 9 Petroleum Company in Bartlesville, Oklahoma. 10 For two years , I was a research engineer in 11 their Research Department, working on 1 2 research problems associated with drilling 1 3 fluids used in drilling for oil wells and in 1 4 secondary recovery of oil from exhausted oil 1 5 fields. 1 6 Following that, for two years I 17 was invo1ved with, a s a process engineer, 1 8 working on the design or specification of 1 9 equipment required a t oil refineries to 2 0 accomplish certain separations of petroleum. 2 1 I n 19 51, I joined Monsanto Company 22 and for the first thirteen years or so, I 2 3 worked a t their St. Louis plant, which was 2 4 referred to a s the J. F. Queeny, Q-u-e-e-n-y, 2 5 Plant. I started a t that plant as a proc ess GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 15 WATER_PCB-SD0000070519 1 design engineer, designing equipment required 2 for the manufacture of a chemical, and 3 following the design phase, X was involved 4 with the startup operations whereby I 5 actually went out into the plant and did what 6 was required to test to see that the 7 equipment I designed could do what I said it 8 could do. 9 After the successful s tar tup of 1 0 that new system, I was assigned to -- and 11 this was about 19 forty -- fifty -- 1953 or 1 2 '4, I was assigned as an assistant supervisor 1 3 in a production unit that made chemicals 14 known as plasticizers. These are materials 1 5 that are added toplastics to make them 1 6 flexible, pliable. 17 After about a year in that 1 8 assignment, I was given my own department as 19 a supervisor. I would say this was about 2 0 19 5 4-55 , and this production unit was 2 1 involved with the purification of a mixture 2 2 of chemicals to produce specific parts of 23 that mixture that were later used to making 2 4 such things as rubber chemicals. 2 5 About 1955 or '56, I transferred GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 16 WATER_PCB-SD0000070520 1 into the Maintenance Department ~ - now, all 2 of this takes place a t this plant that I 3 mentioned I had served for thirteen years . 4 My initial assignment in the Maintenance 5 Department for about a year was a s the 6 supervisor of a group of, of a team that was 7 involved in small projects such as replacing 8 a tank, replacing a pump, put ting in new 9 pipelines, new instruments , new facilities ; 10 small projects. 11 Following that assignment, and 1 2 this takes me now to about 1956, I was made 1 3 the Superintendent of Maintenance, and this 1 4 involved a much bigger team. It included 1 5 about -- and this would change with the 1 6 needs -- about eight supervisors, 25 to 30 17 foremen and about 400 craftsmen, pipe 1 8 fitters, welders, carpenters, insulators, and 1 9 so on. We were responsible for not only the 2 0 little project group that I had, but as well 21 as the maintenance, upkeep, pres tio n of 2 2 the facilities a t the plant. 2 3 I believe now I've reached about 2 4 1958 or '59. I was then assigned to the 2 5 plant engineering department, which a t the GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 17 WATER_PCB-SD0000070521 1 plant was called the Technical Services 2 Department, as a superintendent in that 3 department, and I supervised the activities 4 of -- and again, the number would change 5 depending on the workload -- from six to I 6 twenty engineers and technicians who made the 7 necessary studies, developed the 8 specifications, assisted with the startup of 9 new facilities to help improve the operations 1 0 of various producing units in the plant. 11 In about 1963 or '62 or '63, I'm 1 2 not certain of the date, I was made a general 1 3 superintendent of the service functions in 1 4 the -- at that plant. This included the 1 5 management and supervision of such things as 1 6 the power plant, the Receiving Department, 1 7 the Shipping Department, the, the group that 1 8 cleaned up the streets and alleys, all of the 1 9 activities that supported the manufacturing 2 0 function except for the maintenance support. 2 1 In other words , I picked up everything else 22 that was required to keep the plant running . 23 That completes my assignments a t 2 4 the John F. Que eny Plant which takes me up to 2 5 1 9 6 4 . In 1964, I was assigned to Mons anto ' s GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 18 WATER_PCB-SD0000070522 1 plant located across the Mississippi River in 2 Sauget, Illinois, S-a-u-g-e-t , as one of six 3 or eight general superintendents of 4 manufacturing. In that assignment, I was 5 responsible for a given set of products 6 produced a t that plant , and my responsibility 7 included the manufacture of these products a t 8 scheduled rates of production , a t budge ted 9 costs, and of course, to do it safely, 1 0 without hurting anybody or destroying the 11 equipment . That lasted until 1 965. 1 2 In 1965, I was assigned to the 1 3 Monsanto plant in Anniston, Alabama, as the 1 4 plant manager, which is the top 1 5 administrative assignment at the plant, and I 1 6 guess the best way to describe my 17 responsibilities is to say that I was really 1 8 responsible for everything a t the plant . The 1 9 buck stopped at my desk, I guess, is another 2 0 way to say it. 2 1 That assignment lasted until the 2 2 end of 1969. 23 I n 19 7 0, I was assigned back to 24 St. Louis a t Monsanto' s headquarters, as a 25 Manager of Environmental Control, GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 19 WATER_PCB-SD0000070523 1 coordinating activities relating to 2 polychlorinated biphenyl and its emergence a t 3 that time as an environmental issue . 4 1 had that responsibility for PCB 5 environmental issue until February of 1976. 6 Now, in those intervening years, my job title 7 did change from Manager, Environmental 8 Control , to Manager, Environmental 9 Protection, and finally to Manager, Product 1 0 ty . 11 Starting in about 1973, I not only 12 kept the assignment to PCBs as an 1 3 environmental issue, but was assigned other 14 products that Monsanto manufactured and sold. 1 5 In February of 1976, the 1 6 responsibilities for PCB were assigned to 1 7 another individual, and this was the result 1 8 of a -- of one of many company 1 9 reorganizations where products were regrouped 2 0 and assignments were made to other 2 1 individuals. 22 In 19 7 7 , I was appointed a s 2 3 Director of Environmental Operations for a 2 4 for one of Monsanto's operating units, and 2 5 that unit was referred to a s the Monsanto GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 20 WATER_PCB-SD0000070524 1 Chemical Intermediates Company. 2 As best I recall, that assignment 3 lasted until 1983, and because of another 4 Monsanto reorganization, I was then named as 5 the Director, Environmental Operations for 6 the Monsanto Industrial Chemicals company. 7 In 1985, another reorganization 8 tookplace, and I was then named Manager of 9 Occupational Health for the Mons anto Chemical 1 0 Company , an operating unit of Monsanto 11 Company,and a t the end of 19 8 6, I retired 1 2 from Mons anto Company. 1 3 Q. Have you been self-employed since 1 4 19 8 6 ? 1 5 A . Yes, sir. 16 Q. In the course of your 17 responsibilities with Monsanto , did you have 1 8 any involvement with any issues involving 1 9 polychlorinated biphenyls prior to 1970? 2 0 A. Yes. 2 1 Q. Could you tell me about that? 22 A. I first be came involved with 2 3 polychlorinated biphenyls in 19 -- I'm trying 2 4 to recall the date -- 1953 or so, when I was 2 5 a supervisor of the, the department that GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 21 WATER_PCB-SD0000070525 1 manufactured these chemicals that were used 2 for rubber additives. There were compressors 3 involved that used fluids containing PCBs , 4 and there were heat transfer units that used 5 fluids that contained PCBs. 6 As a user of that equipment , I had 7 to know something about the properties of 8 those fluids and make certain that the 9 employees were informed. I later became 1 0 involved with PCB fluids when I had the small 11 project group . We were, on occasion, 1 2 involved with installing pumps, and 1 3 pipelines, and equipment that used fluids 1 4 containing PCBs. When I became the general 1 5 superintendent of the Services Department, I 16 was, of course, my operations in the power 17 plant were capacitors and electrical gear, 1 8 and trans f ormers were in place . They were 1 9 certainly there and I had -- I was aware of 2 0 that. 21 Let me back a bit, though. When I 2 2 was maintenance superintendent prior to that, 2 3 I had about 4 0 electricians who, on occasion, 2 4 would be working with electrical equipment 2 5 that contained PCB-type materials, and of GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 22 WATER_PCB-SD0000070526 1 course, I also had pump mechanics, and pipe 2 fitters, and welders that would work on 3 systems like heat transfer systems and air 4 compressed -- compressed air systems. They , 5 too, had the potential for being involved 6 closely with PCB-type fluids . 7 When I was the general 8 manufacturing superintendent at the Sauget, 9 Illinois, plant, some of the facilities that 1 0 manufactured the chemicals to which I was 11 assigned, they had, again , air compressor 1 2 systems and other hydraulic systems that used 1 3 fluids containing PCBs, as well a s heat 1 4 transfer systems. 1 5 A t the Anniston Plant, where I 1 6 served a s the plant manager, we manufactured 1 7 PCBs, packaged them, labeled them and shipped 1 8 them, as well as used them in our own 1 9 facilities . 2 0 That summarizes my involvement 21 with PCBs prior to 1970. 22 Q . I think that you indic ated that in 23 February of 1976, responsibilities for PCBs 2 4 were assigned to another individual a s a 2 5 result of a corporate reorganization a t GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 23 WATER_PCB-SD0000070527 1 Monsanto. 2 Do you know who the individual was 3 to whom those responsibilities were 4 transferred? 5 A . Yes, sir. 6 Q. Who were they? 7 A. Mr. J. C. Weber . 8 Q. That wastwo "b's" or one ? 9 A. One " b . " 10 Q. Is Mr. Weber still with Monsanto? 11 A. I believe he's retired. 1 2 Q. Do you know where he is now? 13 A. The last I heard -- this has been 1 4 five years ago -- he was in the St. Louis 1 5 area. 16 Q . Do you know how long Mr. Weber 17 held responsibilities for PCBs? 1 8 A. I, I have a rough recall; a couple 1 9 or three years. 2 0 Q. Were responsibilities for PCBs 2 1 then assigned to yet another individual 2 2 within Monsanto? 2 3 A. Yes, sir. 2 4 Q. Do you know who that individual 2 5 was? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 24 WATER_PCB-SD0000070528 1 A . I recall David Wood being 2 involved I do not know if it was a n 3 official assignment or whether it was a sort 4 of an involvement brought about by the fact 5 that Mr. Wood was still involved in marketing 6 the materials, so he, in essence, became the 7 individual that I associated with the PCB 8 issue , following Mr. Weber. 9 Q . Just so that I unders tand, he was 1 0 involved in marketing Monsanto products 1 1 containing PCBs? 1 2 A . Yes, sir. 1 3 Q . Do you know if Mr. Wood is still 1 4 employed by Monsanto? 1 5 A . The last I heard, he was, yes. 1 6 Q And when was the last you heard? 1 7 A . Oh, within the past year. 1 8 Q . Do you know whether 1 9 responsibilities for PCBs was transferred to 2 0 anyone else after Mr. Wood? 2 1 A. Yes, in the -- hmm: In about 2 2 1980, '81, the responsibility for PCB 2 3 environmental issues was assigned to Dr. 2 4 J. H. Craddock, C-r-a-d-d-o-c-k. 2 5 Q . Is Mr. , or excuse me. Dr. Craddock GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 25 WATER_PCB-SD0000070529 1 still employed by Monsanto? 2 A . Yes, he is. 3 Q. Here in St. Louis? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Were responsibilities for PCB 6 issues assigned to anybody after Dr. 7 Craddock? 8 A. He still has that assignment. 9 Q. When you became Director of 1 0 Environmental Opera tions in 1 9 7 7, did that 11 position involve P C B s in any way? 1 2 A . Yes. 1 3 Q. How? 14 A. It was my responsibility to see 1 5 that those Monsanto facilities assigned to 1 6 the operating unit that I was a member of 17 were complying with all of the evolving 1 8 practices, rules, regulations relating to 19 PCBs and their use, disposal. It was up to 2 0 me and my team to monitor these activities t o 21 make certain that they were understood and 2 2 the actions taken were acceptable. 2 3 Q . When you say that you monitored 2 4 these activities, are you ref erring to 2 5 within Monsanto? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 26 WATER_PCB-SD0000070530 1 A . Yes. 2 Q. Did you have any involvement in 3 activities by Monsanto's customers for PCB 4 products? 5 A . Not a t that time, no. 6 g. Did you prior to 1977, have 7 responsibility o r involvement in mo nitoring 8 activities of Monsanto's PCB customers? 9 A. Yes. 1 0 Q. When was that? 11 A. It was the period 1970 to February 1 2 19 -- through February 1976. 1 3 Q. When you said that your 1 4 responsibilities were in part to see how 15 your -- or how Monsanto's facilities were 16 complying with all the evolving practices , 1 7 what kind of practices are you referring to? 1 8 A. Of course, there's the obvious 1 9 practice, practices that had to do with 2 0 personal hygiene, the washing of hands that 2 1 had been contaminated with the fluids or the , 2 2 preferably, the wearing of the proper gloves; 2 3 the awareness that breathing too much of the 2 4 fumes is not acceptable and they must avoid 2 5 that exposure or if they are forced to be GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 27 WATER_PCB-SD0000070531 1 there to put on the proper kind of 2 protection; the practice , for example, of 3 working on a system and making certain that 4 the liquid doesn ' t just flow on to the, the 5 department floor, down the sewer; the 6 practice of once the material is judged to be 7 unsuitable for use in equipment, that it be 8 properly collected, put in the proper 9 container, properly labeled, and properly 1 0 disposed of. It's that kind of thing that we 11 continually reemphasize with the plants. 12 Q . During the period from 1 970 until 1 3 February of '76, did you reemphasize the same 1 4 kinds of things to cus tomer s for Monsanto' s 1 5 PCB products? 1 6 A . Yes. 17 Q. With respect to Monsanto's 1 8 customers during that period, did you 19 emphasize practices relating to making 2 0 certain that the liquid did not just flow on 2 1 the floor or go down the sewer of the 2 2 customer ' s facilities? 23 A . That is correct . 2 4 Q. In the position that you assumed 25 in 1 9 8 3 within Mons anto, were you involved in GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 28 WATER_PCB-SD0000070532 1 any PCB issues? 2 A. 1983 . 3 Q Go ahead. 4 A . I was, as a Director of 5 Environmental Operations, I had that 6 sility I just described for the 7 previous Director of Environmental Operations 8 activity I n addition, I had Dr. Craddock 9 reporting to me, so I was, again, being tuned 1 0 in, in a way, to the kinds of things Dr. 11 Craddock was involved in. 1 2 Q . Did you have any involvement in 1 3 PCB issues as Manager of Occupational Health 1 4 for Monsanto? 1 5 A . The involvement then centered on 1 6 employee exposure and the prevention thereof. 17 Q . During the time that you have been 1 8 self-employed, have you done any work for 1 9 Fruit of the Loom? 2 0 A . No . 2 1 Q . Have you done any work for 22 Velsicol Chemical Corporation? 2 3 A . No . 2 4 Q . Have you done any work for 2 5 Universal Manufacturing Corporation? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 29 WATER_PCB-SD0000070533 1 A . No . 2 Q. Mr. Papageorge, do you belong to 3 any trade or professional associations? 4 A. Yes, I do . 5 Q. Could you identify those trade 6 7 A. I be long to the American Chemical 8 Society, I belong to the American Institute 9 of Chemical Engineers . I don't suppose this 1 0 quite fits the definition of trade society, 11 but I'm registered a s a professional engineer 1 2 in the State of Missouri , and that' s it. 1 3 Q. Have you participated in any 1 4 industry committees that addressed PCB 1 5 issues? 1 6 A. Yes. 1 7 Q . Could you identify those 1 8 committees? 1 9 A. There was a committee which, whi ch 2 0 was under the auspices of the American 21 National Standards Institute, designated as 22 ANSI, A-N-S-I, Committee C-107 . 23 There was another committee which 2 4 was referred to as the PCB Ad Hoc Committee 25 unde r the auspices of the Electronic GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 30 WATER_PCB-SD0000070534 1 Institute of America, EIA. Those are the 2 only two formal committees I could recall. 3 Q . With respect to the ANSI C-10 7 4 Committee, what did that committee do ? 5 A. That committee developed and 6 published guidelines on the proper use, 7 transportation, disposal of fluids used in 8 electrical equipment that contained PCBs. 9 Q . When did the C -10 7 Committee 1 0 develop and publish these guidelines? 11 A. The proposed guidelines were 1 2 published and distributed a s of J anuary 1 9 7 3. 1 3 Those proposed guidelines were finally 1 4 adopted by the American National Standards 1 5 Institute in January of 1974. 1 6 Q. To whom were the proposed 17 guidelines distributed? 1 8 A. They were distributed, of course , 1 9 to manufacturers of electrical equipment 2 0 which used PCB-type fluids , they were 21 distributed to utilities, the power stations 22 and all that used equipment containing PCB 2 3 fluids, they were distributed to disposal 2 4 service operators, they were distributed to 2 5 various governmental agencies and departments GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 31 WATER_PCB-SD0000070535 1 that were involved with electrical equipment 2 containing PCB fluids, and they were 3 distributed to companies in the business of 4 servicing transformers. I'm sure I missed 5 some of them, but that's a representative 6 sample of what was done. 7 Q. The manuf acturers of electrical 8 equipment which used PCB-type fluids, would 9 those include capacitor manufacturers? 1 0 A . Yes. 11 Q. Have you heard of a company called 1 2 Universal Manufacturing Corporation? 1 3 A. I have. 1 4 Q. Is Universal a capacitor 1 5 manufacturer? 1 6 A. Yes . | 17 Q. Was it in 1973? 1 8 A. I first , Ifirst heard of them 1 9 when I was at the Anniston Plant as a 2 0 customer of the PCB materials that were 2 1 shipped out of that plant. That would have 22 been in the late Sixties . 23 Q. Just so that I'm clear on that 2 4 last question and answer , is it your 2 5 understanding that Universal manufactured GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 32 WATER_PCB-SD0000070536 1 capacitors containing PCB materials in 1973? 2 A . I'm conf used by the date '73. 3 Q . That's when, as I understand it, 4 the ANSI C-10 7 Committee's proposed 5 guidelines were distributed to capacitor 6 manufacturers. 7 A . Oh, yes, yes. 8 Q . Do you know whether Universal 9 received those ANSI guidelines? 1 0 A . I'm positive, yes. 11 g. How do you know that? 1 2 A . Their representative was an active 1 3 member of the committee, and he was one that 1 4 took home a boxful of these guidelines. 1 5 Q. Are we referring now to the 1 6 proposed guidelines or to the actual 17 guidelines? 1 8 A . To both. Both. 1 9 Q . Who was that representative? 2 0 A . Mr . Clark. 2 1 Q . Ray Clark? 2 2 A . Ray Clark . He had another initial 2 3 a s I remember that I never did know. I think 2 4 it's N, N. R. Clark . 2 5 Q. With respect to the PCB Ad Hoc GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST . LOUIS , MISSOURI 33 WATER_PCB-SD0000070537 1 Committee that you identified earlier, what 2 did that committee do? 3 A. They addressed the presence of 4 PCBs in waste effluents from plants . By 5 waste effluents, I'm talking about the water 6 wastes from their plants, and were attempting 7 to determine what was realistically 8 achievable and to share that information with 9 the appropriate governmental agencies , 1 0 primarily the federal agencies . They were 11 also interested in preserving the use of PCBs 1 2 in capacitors because of their excellent fire 1 3 resistance, and they were very concerned that 1 4 they might be forced to using materials that 1 5 didn't have this fire-resistant property. As 1 6 I remember, those were the two important 1 7 activities that they were involved with. 1 8 Q. Was Mr. Clark active in preparing 1 9 the ANSI C-10 7 guidelines? 2 0 MS. SOBEL: Objection , could you 2 1 rephrase that, please? 2 2 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: Do you 2 3 unders tand the que s tion ? 2 4 THE WITNESS: I think I do. 25 BY MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 34 WATER_PCB-SD0000070538 1 Q Could you answer? 2 A. Yes. Mr. Clark was one of the 3 leaders in the group , and by "group, " I ' in 4 talking about the capacitor working subgroup 5 within the ANSI committee. 6 BY MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: 7 Q . Did Universal Manuf ac turing 8 Corporation have a representative on the PCB 9 Ad Hoc Committee? 1 0 A. Yes . 11 Q. Who was that? 1 2 A . 11 was predominantly Mr. Clark , 1 3 although at times, as I remember, he would 1 4 send someone else because he had other 1 5 commitments, but Mr. Clark was the designated 16 17 Q . Excuse me Could you give me a 1 8 sense of the time frame that the PCB Ad Hoc 1 9 Committee addressed the presence of PCBs i n 2 0 the waste effluents? 21 A . What was the last expression of 2 2 the word. .2 3 Q Effluents 2 4 A . Oh, waste effluents. We're 2 5 talking now about the EIA a d hoc committee? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 35 WATER_PCB-SD0000070539 1 Q That's correct. 2 A . As best I recall, that activity 3 began in 19, late 1972, 1972 or '73, early 4 '73, and that activity continued through 5 1974, as I recall. That's the best I can 6 remember. 7 Q . Mr . Papageorge, have you given 8 testimony before any legislative or executive 9 body of the federal government ? 1 0 A . I have given before legislative, 11 for sure. I don't know what you mean by 1 2 executive body. Can you help me with that? 1 3 Q Any administrative agencies within 1 4 the federal government? 1 5 A . I have given it before 1 6 itives of these agencies, yes. 17 Q How many times have you given 1 8 testimony before any bodies of the federal 1 9 government? 2 0 A. Can you help me a little with 2 1 "testimony"? Is this the formal present 2 2 under formal conditions , or is this in 23 meetings with groups of working kind of 2 4 sessions? 2 5 Q Let's say formally. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 36 WATER_PCB-SD0000070540 1 A. The formal type; all right. I'm 2 sure I won't recall all of them. I remember 3 the presentation before a, a committee 4 chaired by Dr. Mar tha Saeger in about 1 97 2 on 5 the subject of toxic pollutants in waters . 6 That's the best I remember. There must have 7 been ten or a dozen materials that were being 8 considered, one of these was PCBs. There was 9 another session a t which I testified before 10 an E P A administrative law judge , again on 1 1 PCBs in water systems . I have spoken 12 before -- you s ugge s t ed formal sessions . 13 Those are the only two f o r m a 1s that I recall . 14 Q. On whose behalf did you give 1 5 testimony in those two formal occasions? 1 6 A. On behalf of Mons anto Company. 1 7 Q. I take it from your answers that 1 8 you have also given or participated 1 9 informally in occasions with agencies or 2 0 bodies of the federal government relating to 2 1 PCBs ? 2 2 A. Yes. 23 Q. Approximately how many times have 24 you engaged in these inf ormal occasions ? 2 5 A. Dozens. I don't know , I didn't GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MISSOURI 37 WATER_PCB-SD0000070541 1 keep any score. 2 Q . Have you given any formal 3 testimony before any legislative or 4 administrative body of any state government? 5 A . I recall giving -- I hesitate 6 because I don't know exactly the definition 7 o f the group that I made the presentation t o 8 but I recall the administrative law judge i n 9 Albany , New York , addressing the presence of 1 0 PCBs in the Hudson River . I recall a, a 11 hearing in the -- in New York City, I think 1 2 it's before the Attorney General? Not 1 3 Attorney General, the district attorney in 14 New York? I'm not certain. He was an 1 5 attorney who was popular at the time, his 16 name escapes me, in the World Trade Center. 17 It was a room, there, looked like a courtroom 1 8 and I testified there. I recall a meeting in 1 9 Madison, Wisconsin, before a state, I think 2 0 it was their Department of Natural Resources 2 1 or some such title. Those situations I just 22 described were the -- we were -- I was 2 3 present because of the invitation to appear . 2 4 Q. Do you recall when that meeting in 25 Madison, Wisconsin, was, approximately? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 38 WATER_PCB-SD0000070542 1 About 1973. 2 Q . Do you recall why you had been 3 invited to make a presentation there? 4 A. I don't recall any specific 5 incident other than the general interest of 6 PCBs in public waters, primarily the Great 7 Lakes . 8 THE WITNESS: Is this a good time 9 for a break? 1 0 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: It certainly 11 is. Let's take a break. 12 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 1 3 (Recess) 14 MR. HUELSMAN: We're back on. 1 5 BY MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: 1 6 Q. Mr. Papageorge, I think you 1 7 testified earlier that during the period from 1 8 1970 through February of 1976, you monitored 1 9 customers' practices relating to PCBs. Do 2 0 you recall that testimony? 2 1 A. I do recall it and I did. 22 Q. Did you monitor Universal ' s 2 3 practices relating to PCBs during that 2 4 period? 2 5 A. To a degree, yes. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 39 WATER_PCB-SD0000070543 1 Q What did you do? 2 A. I did visit the plant in 3 Connecticut as part of a review of capacitor 4 manufacturers in the Northeas t part of the 5 United States, and of course, I relied on the 6 Mons anto field salesmen to be my eyes and 7 ears and report back any observations he made 8 or any discussions he had held relating to 9 PCBs in the environment. 1 0 Q. How many times did you visit the 1 1 plant in Connecticut? 1 2 A. Just once. 1 3 Q. Do you recall who theMonsanto 1 4 field salesman was that you relied on? 1 5 A. Yes, sir. 1 6 Q. Who was that? 1 7 A. Randall, R-a-n-d-a-1-1, Graham, 1 8 G-r-a-h-a-m. 19 Q. Is Mr. Graham stillemployed by 2 0 Mons an to ? 2 1 A. No, sir. 2 2 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: You must 2 3 rate if you get two , two microphones . 2 4 MR. HUELSMAN: The one might have 2 5 went out, so I just put both of them on. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 40 WATER_PCB-SD0000070544 1 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: Is there 2 some way we can check that to see 1f we lost 3 any testimony? 4 MR. HUELSMAN: Pardon me? 5 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: Is there 6 some way to check that is to see whether we 7 lost any testimony? 8 MR. HUELSMAN: We didn't lose any, 9 but I can take this bottom one off. 1 0 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: Okay. 11 BY MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: 12 Q . Do you know where Mr. Graham is 1 3 now? 1 4 A. I do not. 1 5 Q. Do you recall when Mr. Graham was 16 last employed by Monsanto? 17 A. About 1972. 1 8 Q. Did you rely on anyone else to 1 9 report back concerning observations they had 2 0 made or discussions that they had had with 2 1 Univers al personnel concerning their 2 2 practicesrelating to PCBs? 2 3 A. Yes, I relied on the Monsanto 24 representative who replaced Mr . Graham in 2 5 that area, Mr. Alley. I also relied on GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 41 WATER_PCB-SD0000070545 1 Monsanto individuals in the St. Louis area 2 who were involved in the marketing and 3 marketing services of electrical fluids 4 containing P C B s. 5 Q. Anyone else? 6 A. I don't recall any other names. 7 There may well have been one, one or two 8 more. 9 Q. Do you recall what Mr. Alley's 1 0 first name was? 1 1 A . James. 1 2 Q . Do you know whe ther he is still 1 3 employed by Monsanto? 1 4 A . I do not. 1 5 Q. Do you know where Mr . Alley is 1 6 today? 17 A. I do not know. 1 8 Q . With respect to Universal ' s 1 9 practices relating to PCBs, what did you rely 2 0 on the Monsanto individuals who were involved 2 1 in marketing and marketing s e r vices to do? 22 A . I expected them to, a t the risk, 23 even, of being repe titious , to review the 2 4 knowledge that Mons anto had regarding all 2 5 facets of the PCB issue , analytical GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 42 WATER_PCB-SD0000070546 1 techniques, animal testing, presence in the 2 environment, government agency activities 3 pertaining to P C B s. I expected them to be 4 another source of information for not only 5 Universal, all customers . 6 Q. Did the Mons an to individuals 7 involved in marketing and marketing services 8 of PCB products report to you any 9 observations or discussions that they had had 1 0 with Universal individuals? 11 A. Yes, on occasion, yes. 1 2 Q . I believe you testified earlier 1 3 that one of your responsibilities during the 1 4 period from 1970 through February of 1976 was 15 to monitor Monsanto's PCBs customers 1 6 practices relating to PCBs. Do you recall 17 that testimony? 1 8 A. Yes. 1 9 Q. I believe you also testified that 20 as an example of such practices, one was to 2 1 make certain that the 1iquid didn't just flow 22 on the depar tment floor and down in the 2 3 sewer. Did you ever tell Universal during 24 that period that they should make certain 2 5 that PCB liquid didn't just flow on to their GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 43 WATER_PCB-SD0000070547 1 facilities' floors or down sewers a t their 2 facility? 3 A . Yes, definitely. 4 Q Do you recall when the first time 5 would have been that you told Universal 6 personnel that? 7 A . That I, personally, told them ? 8 Q Yes, sir. 9 A. I know I spoke to Mr. Clark about 1 0 this. I'm having trouble recalling the 11 timing. For sure, I told the group of 12 Universal representatives that I met in 1 3 Connecticut, Bridgeport plant, in June of 14 1970. I don't recall if I had told, if I 15 told Mr. Clark before that. It'spossible I 16 did, but I don't remember exactly when. 17 Q. Do you know whether anyone else at 18 Monsanto had told anyone at Universal prior 1 9 to that that they should not permit PCB 20 liquid to flow on to the plant' s floors a t 2 1 Bridgeport? 22 A. I have the understanding that- Mr. 2 3 Gr aham covered that subject a s a result of a 24 letter that went out in February of 1970 in 2 5 which the presence of PCBs in the environment GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 44 WATER_PCB-SD0000070548 1 was reported and also a s a result of a new 2 label that was affixed to the containers of 3 PCBfluids which was instituted in about May 4 of 1 97 0 . 5 Q. I believe you testified that it's 6 your understanding that Mr.Graham had told 7 Universal personnel. What ' s your 8 understanding based on? 9 A. Mr. Graham was informed that we 1 0 were embarking on a program of informing 11 customers to keep PCBs from getting into the 12 environment, that we were going to do this 1 3 via mailing, as well as labeling, but he 1 4 didn't have to wait for those to happen. 1 5 There -- when he called on the customers to 1 6 inform them that such a message was coming 17 their way and that they should review their 1 8 operations and assure themselves that PCBs 1 9 were not going down the sewer, or up the 2 0 stack, or anywhere else where they shouldn't 21 be, that was theinstruction that was passed 2 2 on to Mr. Graham, and that was his 2 3 assignment . That's his job. 2 4 Q. Do you have any reason to believe 2 5 that Mr. Graham did not pass that information GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MISSOURI 45 WATER_PCB-SD0000070549 1 on to Universal? 2 A. I have absolutely no reason to 3 believe that. 4 Q. Do you have any particular -5 A. In fact, -- 6 Q. Excuse me. 7 A. In fact, I would, knowing Mr. 8 Graham, I would suggest that he did it 9 immediately. 1 0 Q. Given that as far as I'm aware, 11 nobody else in this case is a chemical 12 engineer, could you describe as best you can 1 3 in terms comprehensible to a layman what a 1 4 polychlorinated biphenyl is? 1 5 A. I can start or I can try. 16 Q. Give it your best shot, please. 17 A. The polychlorinated biphenyls, in 1 8 discussions of this type were industrial 1 9 materials, and they were in a liquid form 20 that looked very much, at least in the pure 21 state , like baby oil, if you can picture 22 that. Some of them were more free-flowing, 2 3 and some of them were a little thicker, like 2 4 molasses in January, but that's the physical 2 5 description of them. They were never pure GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 46 WATER_PCB-SD0000070550 1 chemicals . They were mixtures of a family of 2 chemicals. They were never sold a s a pure 3 chemical . This is a mixture that has these 4 properties is the way the material was 5 described. They are made from two common 6 materials , and I believe that they're c ommon 7 materials, I think most of us have heard of 8 benzene . I suppose the most popular place 9 benzene is found today is in gasoline, it's 1 0 one of the ingredients. It's described by 1 1 the chemists graphically on paper by a, a 1 2 hexagon-shape configuration. At each corner 1 3 of this hexagon is located a carbon. These 1 4 carbons are connected to form this hexagon. 1 5 In addition to the carbon, there is attached 1 6 to it a hydrogen, so you have six carbons 17 associated with six hydrogens. That is 1 8 called benzene, and benzene, under normal 1 9 conditions, is a liquid, looks very much like 2 0 gasoline. When this benzene is exposed to 2 1 high temperatures, glowing , red-hot metal 2 2 kind of temperature , and high pres sure, two 2 3 of these hexagons join, and I call it nose to 24 nose, a carbon to a carbon . That joining 2 5 f orms the biphenyl, so you now have twelve GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 47 WATER_PCB-SD0000070551 1 carbons with ten hydrogens ; biphenyl . 2 Now, biphenyl , under normal 3 conditions, is, it's a white solid, looks 4 very much like white candle wax. The 5 biphenyl is heated to melt it back to the 6 liquid form, and into it is introduced 7 chlorine. Now, t he chlorine, many of us may 8 be familiar with in terms of chlorine used in 9 swimming pool sanitation or disinfection, you 1 0 bubble the chlorine thr ough the bipheny1. As 1 1 the chlorine goes through, it randomly chases 1 2 away one of the hydrogens and replaces it, so 1 3 instead of a carbon hydrogen, you now have a 1 4 carbon and chlorine combination around this 1 5 double hexagon configuration, so you can see 1 6 that you can have as much as one chlorine on 17 this configuration up to ten chlorines. The 1 8 amount of chlorine that affixes itself to 1 9 this biphenyl is dependent on the time of 20 exposure. The longer you bubble chlorine, 21 the more chlorine hooks on. 2 2 In the manufacture of PCBs, from 2 3 , it is known that for a given 2 4 amount of biphenyl, you bubble chlorine a t a 2 5 given rate for so many hours and you should GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 48 WATER_PCB-SD0000070552 1 have the mixture you are looking for. 2 The mixture can range, say, from a 3 two-chlorine type to a five chlorine type, 4 all within the same pot. That mixture then 5 is distilled , and by distilling, what I'm 6 talking about is applying enough heat so that 7 the material that is desired boils off as a 8 vapor, it is cooled down to a liquid and 9 collected. and that' s what's sold as a PCB . 1 0 The undesirables end up as a black tar that 1 1 looks very much like road tar . I know I've 1 2 talked a lot. I don't know if I answered 1 3 your question, but does that help? 1 4 Q. I think you have. It does help. 1 5 What is a chlorinated hydrocarbon? 1 6 Have you, in the course of your past answer, 17 just described what a chlorinated hydrocarbon 1 8 is? 1 9 A. A chlorinated hydrocarbon, that 20 expression is used to describe a very large 2 1 family of chemicals that consist of 2 2 carbon-type products that are treated in such 2 3 a way that chlorine is attached. The PCB is 2 4 a member of that family , because we started, 2 5 remember, with carbon and added chlorine. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 49 WATER_PCB-SD0000070553 1 Another, used to be popular, you may have 2 heard of carbon tetrachloride. That's the 3 single c arbon with four chlorines attached. 4 That used to be popular as a dry cleaning 5 fluid and a spot remover, and so on, until it 6 was f ound to be harmful. 7 Chloroform is another form of 8 chlorinated hydrocarbon. Chloroform has got 9 three chlorines but one hydrogen. That other 1 0 hydr ogen wasn't pushed out of the way by a 11 chlorine. Chloroform was used in the early 1 2 days as a, as an anesthetizer, anesthetic. 1 3 Another popular one that you may 1 4 have heard of is perch1orethy1ene, which is 1 5 two carbons loaded with chlorine, that's used 1 6 in the dry cleaning business. 1 7 Q. That's the only one you've got so 1 8 far that I haven't heard of, but I think you 1 9 answered one of my other questions, which was 2 0 whether or not a polychlorinated biphenyl is 2 1 a chlorinated hydrocarbon. 22 A . It is, definitely. 2 3 Q. Have you heard the term askarel? 24 A. Yes. 2 5 Q. What is a n askarel? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MISSOURI 50 WATER_PCB-SD0000070554 1 A. An a s k a r e1, well, the word 2 "askarel" is a generic term. It's not a 3 trademark, it's a generic term used by the 4 electrical equipment industry to describe a 5 fluid used in that electrical equipment that 6 is fire resistant, and of c ours e , for 7 decades, the only proven one was the type 8 that contained P C B s , but the word "askarel , " 9 in itself, is not necessarily limited to the 1 0 PCB type . 1 1 Q * You've heard of products sold 1 2 using the trade name Aroclor. 1 3 A . I have. 1 4 Q Okay. Does the term Aroclor have 1 5 any meaning other than as a trade name? 16 MS. SOBEL : Objection. Can you 17 rephrase the question for the record? 1 8 BY MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: 19 Q Do you understand the question? 2 0 A . I think I do. Does it have any 21 other meaning other than the trade name. 22 Q Yes, sir. 23 A . I think I unders tand your 24 que stion. 11 is a trade name, it's a 2 5 Mons an to trade name -- GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 51 WATER_PCB-SD0000070555 1 MS . SOBEL: That's what you should 2 have asked -- 3 A. To describe chlorinated 4 hydrocarbons that Mons an to xnanuf ac tur ed . 5 BY MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: 6 Q. Aside from that use as a trade 7 name, does the term "Aroclor," does the term 8 "Aroclor" refer to anything else? 9 A . Not that I'm aware of. 10 Q Could you identify the produc ts 11 sold by Monsanto using the trade name 1 2 Aroclor? 1 3 A . Identify them in what way ? 1 4 Q Were different products sold by 1 5 Mons anto using that trade name? 1 6 A . Yes. 17 Q Which produc ts ? 1 8 A . I'll have difficulty remembering 1 9 them all. They were designated using the 2 0 expression "Aroclor " followed by a number, 21 f our-digit number. There was a 1200 series 22 that defined the PCB group, a 5000 series 2 3 that defined the chlorinated terphenyl group, 2 4 and there was a 4000 series that defined the 2 5 mixtures of the two. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 52 WATER_PCB-SD0000070556 1 Q. What does the, what do the last 2 two digits of the numerical designation 3 following the trade name indicate? 4 A. Except for one case, they 5 designate, thos e two digits represent the 6 percent on a weight basis of chlorine present 7 in that mixture, so when you see a number 8 like 42, that's 4 2 percent of that material , 9 as weighed, is chlorine. 1 0 Q. You said exc ept for one exception. 11 What's that exception? 1 2 A. There was a product sold with 13 Aroclor trademark called A r o c1o r 1016. That 1 4 16 and the 10 do not fit the previous 1 5 description I gave you. It has no 1 6 significance whatever in determining or 17 describing the product. 1 8 Q. Did Aroclor 1016 contain PCBs? 1 9 A. Yes. 20 Q. When did Monsanto begin marketing 2 1 Aroclor 1016? 22 A. 1971 . 2 3 Q. Had Mons anto been marketing 24 Aroclor products containing PCBs prior to 2 5 that? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 53 WATER_PCB-SD0000070557 1 A . Certainly. 2 Q Does Monsanto still market 3 products under the A r o c1o r trade name? 4 A . No . 5 0 When did Mons anto stop marke ting 6 products that used the Ar o c1o r trade name? 7 A . 1 97 7 . 8 0 . Did Monsanto produce other 9 product s containing PCBs? 1 0 A . When? 11 Q Prior to 1977. 1 2 A . Yes. 1 3 Q Okay, what other products did 1 4 Monsanto produce that contained PCBs? 1 5 MR. DAVIDSON: David, let me 1 6 here, that it seems to me that 1 7 we're getting kind of far afield of the 1 8 designated areas of testimony that you've 1 9 asked for. I realize you need to get some 2 0 background on Mr. Papageorge's involvement 2 1 with the company, but as I understand it, 2 2 your case involves, basically, mostly a 2 3 dielectric fluids and some Pydraul fluid or 2 4 hydraulic fluid, so I'm just questioning 2 5 whe the r we're getting a little far afield of GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 54 WATER_PCB-SD0000070558 1 the relevant information that you need to 2 get. 3 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER : Some of this 4 is, by nature of background . I don't know 5 that it goes beyond what we've designated as 6 matters for testimony today. 7 A s far a s what Monsanto produced 8 in the way of PCB products, so far we have no 9 testimony indicating what Universal may have 1 0 purchased from Monsanto that contained PCBs 11 if, in fact, they used it a s hydraulic 1 2 fluids , and I think we'll be getting to that. 1 3 I think I am getting to that. 1 4 MR. DAVIDSON: Well, but you've 1 5 asked a fairly broad question and it seems to 1 6 me to be asking for a lot of information 17 about products and product uses that couldn't 1 8 possibly be involved. 1 9 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER : We don't 20 know that yet, and that ' s why I ' m asking 2 1 these questions. 2 2 MR. DAVIDSON: All right, I would 2 3 ask you to focus in a little more on the 2 4 products it is that you are going to be 2 5 concerned about and not -- GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 55 WATER_PCB-SD0000070559 1 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: That's what 2 we were attempting to do. 3 MR. DAVIDSON: Okay. 4 BY MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: 5 Q. Let me ask it this way, Mr. 6 Papageorge. Did Monsanto produce a produc t 7 using the trade name Pydraul that contained 8 PCB s ? 9 A. Yes. 1 0 Q. Did Monsanto produce a product 11 using the trade name Therminol that 1 2 produced -- or, that contained PCBs? 1 3 A. Yes. 1 4 Q. How many manufacturers of PCBs 1 5 were there in the United States prior to 1 6 1 97 7 ? 17 A. I'm aware ofonly one. I had 1 8 received reports that others were involved, 1 9 but I was never able to confirm i t . 2 0 Q Who was the one tha t you were 2 1 aware of ? 2 2 A. Monsanto. 2 3 Q. Have there been other suppliers of 2 4 products containing PCBs used a s dielectric 2 5 fluids outside of the United States? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 56 WATER_PCB-SD0000070560 1 A . Yes. 2 Q. Do you recall who some of those 3 were? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q . Could you give me some examples? 6 A.There's the chemical company in 7 Germany that I'm going to refer to as the 8 Bayer , B-a-y-e-r, Company . That is not its 9 official long-term designation. There ' s 1 0 Rhome-Poulenc , P-o-u-e-1-n-c (sic) , in 11 France; Cafarro, C-a-f-a-r-r-o , in Italy; 1 2 Slick, S-l-i-c-k , in Spain , there's another 1 3 one inFrance that the name escapes me at the 1 4 moment. There's the Kannegafuchi in Japan, 15 andI understand there were manufacturers in 1 6 Czechoslovakia and in the USSR. 17 Q . Have you heard of a dielectric 1 8 fluid that was sold under the trade name 1 9 Kannechlor? 2 0 A . Yes, I am. 21 Q . Who manufactured that? 22 A . Kannegafuchi Company in J apan. 2 3 Q Do you know whether that product 2 4 was ever supplied to customers in the United 2 5 States? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST . LOUIS , MISSOURI 57 WATER_PCB-SD0000070561 1 A. Not to my knowledge . 2 Q. Did that produc t contain PCB s ? 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 Q . Do any of the manufacturers you've 5 just named supply customers with PCB products 6 in the United States today ? 7 A . Today? 8 Q. Yes, sir. 9 A. I, I don't know. 1 0 Q . What characteristics of Mons anto ' s 11 Aroclor products led them to be used as 1 2 dielectric fluids? 1 3 A. The two principal characteristics 1 4 were their excellent nonelectrical 1 5 conductivity properties. They were good 1 6 liquid insulators. They were very stable 17 materials that could withstand the heat and 1 8 stresses that occur in the electrical 1 9 equipment without deteriorating, still 20 per f orming the, the function they were 2 1 intended to perform, and I suggest that most 2 2 importantly is that they were resistant to 2 3 any fires that could result from a system 2 4 upset. I! 2 5 Q . Earlier, I believe you testified GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 58 WATER_PCB-SD0000070562 1 that a t the Sauget plant, that facility was 2 used to manufacture chemicals and that that 3 plant had hydraulic systems, heat transfer 4 systems. Did the hydraulic systems use a 5 hydraulic fluid? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. What does a hydraulic fluid do? 8 A.Well, of course, it depends on the 9 application. For example, in your car, when 1 0 you press the brake pedal , the hydraulic 11 fluid is energized and applies pressure on 1 2 the brake system, to allow the closing and 1 3 opening of the devices that form the braking 1 4 action, so it's -- the fluid is used, really, 1 5 as a means of transmitting the energy from 1 6 one point of initiation to the point of 1 7 application . 1 8 Q. Does it have any application in 1 9 pumps used in manufacturing processes? 2 0 MS. SOBEL: Objection. Could you 2 1 try and be more specific , please? 22 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: I don't 23 think I can. 2 4 BY MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: 2 5 Q. If you can, answer the question. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 59 WATER_PCB-SD0000070563 1 A. You said application in pumps. 2 The only association I can describe is that 3 the pump is used to give this hydraul1c fluid 4 the energy that it needs to perform the duty 5 it was designed for. 6 Q . Was Monsanto' s Pydraul produc t a 7 hydraulic fluid? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q What does a heat transfer fluid 1 0 do ? 11 A . Heat transfer fluid is used to 1 2 transfer heat from the source, whether it be 1 3 a gas flame, cold flame or what have you, to 1 4 the point of use. 1 5 Q. Were Monsanto's Therminol products 1 6 heat transfer fluids? 17 A. Yes . 1 8 Q . Earlier, you testified that while 19 you were at Monsanto's Anniston, Alabama, 2 0 plant, Universal Manuf acturing Corporation 21 was a customer of PCB materials that were 22 shipped out of that plant . Do you recall 23 what materials those were? 24 A. Certainly, Ar o c1o r 12 4 2 and a 2 5 little bit of Ar o c1o r 1 254 . GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 60 WATER_PCB-SD0000070564 1 Q Do you know whether Universal 2 Manufacturing purchas ed other Aroclor 3 products from Monsanto? 4 A. Yes, they purchased a Pydraul. 5 Q. Do you know whether Universal 6 purchased Aroclor 1016 at any time? 7 A. I'm sorry, yes, 1016, but that was 8 not out of the Anniston Plant. 9 Q. Qkay. When you answered that 1 0 Universal purchased Pydraul, you were 11 referring to Pydraul that was produced in the 1 2 Anniston Plant and sent to them during the 1 3 time that you were there 1 4 A . No . No , no , n o . 1 5 Q Okay, I just wanted to -- 16 A . You asked me what materials out of 17 the Anniston Plant. The only materials was 1 8 Aroclor 1242 and 1254. Other PCB materials 1 9 were purchased by Universal but they did not 2 0 originate at the Anniston Plant. 21 Q. Do you have some understanding of 2 2 what Universal used Aroclor for? 23 A . I believe I d o . 2 4 Q - What'! s your understanding? 2 5 A . They used the Aroclor 1242 GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 61 WATER_PCB-SD0000070565 1 successor, Aroclor 1016, in the manufacture 2 of electrical capacitors. They used Aroclor 3 1254 as a fluid in their vacuum pumps they 4 had a t the site. 5 Q. Do you have an understanding of 6 what Universal used Pydr aul for? 7 A. I have a n understanding but I 8 don't know how accurate it is. A compressor 9 application, is my understanding. 1 0 Q . Okay, what is your understanding 11 based on? 1 2 A. Some discussions that I remember 1 3 having with Mr. Clark. At least, that's my 1 4 recollection after twenty years. 1 5 Q. Have you heard Universal 1 6 Manufacturing Corporation referred to as 17 Electronic Components, Incorporated? 1 8 A. Yes, I have. 1 9 Q. Do you have some understanding 2 0 that those are one and the same company? 2 1 A. That was my understanding. I 22 thought of them a s the same. 2 3 Q. Beside from -- do you what 2 4 position Mr. Clark held with Universal? 2 5 A. What -- I don't recall his exact GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MISSOURI 62 WATER_PCB-SD0000070566 1 title. General manager, or -- it was a -- 2 from my perspective , Mr. Clark represented 3 the top man insofar as PCBsand capacitors 4 were concerned. That's the way I perceived 5 the man. 6 Q. How did you come to know Mr. 7 Clark? 8 A. He was, of course, introduced to 9 me by our Mons anto marketing representatives , 1 0 and I'm trying to recall the first place I 11 met him and I'm having some difficulty. I 1 2 believe it was in early 1970, with a group of 1 3 representatives of other companies that used 1 4 PCBs in electrical equipment, and as best I 1 5 recall, it was under the informal auspices of 1 6 the National Electrical Manufacturers 17 Association, NEMA. 11 was a n informal 1 8 gathering and this is where I met Mr. Clark 1 9 and others. 2 0 Q. Do you recall the names of any 2 1 other employees or representatives of 22 Universal? 2 3 A. No, I don't. I have a hard time 2 4 rememberingthose name s . Mr. Clark was so 25 dominant, that -- GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 63 WATER_PCB-SD0000070567 1 Q . Okay, let me try some names out on 2 you . Do you recall an individual names Glenn 3 Rayno? 4 A. I don't recall him, but I have to 5 tell you I saw their names yesterday on some 6 papers. I just don't recall them a s 7 individuals that I talked to and so on, 8 although I do know that I did talk to some of 9 them and wrote to some of them. 10 Q. Do you recall an individual named 11 Paul Einhorn? 1 2 A. I. recall Mr. Einhorn; I don't 1 3 believe I ever met Mr. Einhorn. I have seen 1 4 his name in print. I don't recall meeting 1 5 him. 1 6 Q. Do you remember the time period 17 during which Universal purchased Aroclor 1 8 products from Mons anto ? 1 9 A. I don't recall the initial 2 0 purchase dates. I do know they were buying 2 1 them in the Sixties and dis continued buying 2 2 them when Monsanto stopped manufacturing in 23 '77. That is a s close a s I can get to the 2 4 timing. 2 5 Q. Just to back up for one second, do GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 64 WATER_PCB-SD0000070568 1 you have some understanding a s to who Mr. 2 Einhorn was? 3 A. Yeah, it's my understanding he was 4 the president of the company, or way up. He 5 was above Mr. Clark. 6 Q . In Universal? 7 A. In Universal. 8 Q. Do you know whetherUniversal 9 purchased any Therminol products from 1 0 Monsanto? 11 A. I'm not aware of any. 1 2 Q. Do you recall thetime period 1 3 during which Universal purchased Pydraul 1 4 products from Monsanto? 1 5 A. Not specifically. It's still, 1 6 again, the Sixties and Seventies is as close 17 as I can get. 1 8 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: I'm asking 1 9 the reporter to mark as Papageorge Exhibit 1 2 0 a one-page document bearing the production 21 number FRL 001831, dated May 16th, 1963, and 2 2 titled "Toxicity and Safe Handling of Pydraul 2 3 150 . " 2 4 (Papageorge Deposition 2 5 Exhibit 1 marked for GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 65 WATER_PCB-SD0000070569 1 identification.) 2 BY MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: 3 Q . Mr. P apageorge, I'm handing you 4 what we have had marked for identification as 5 Papageorge Exhibit 1. I'd like to ask you to 6 review that document and let me know when 7 you've had a n opportunity to review it. 8 (Witness peruses said 9 document.) 1 0 A . I have reviewed it. 11 Q . Was R. Emmett Kelly, M.D., the 12 medical director of Monsanto Chemical Company 1 3 in 1963? 1 4 A. He was. 15 Q. Do you know why Dr. Kelly wrote 1 6 this one-page document? 17 A. Well, this was, this was typical 1 8 of every product Monsanto makes: There's a 1 9 sheet similar to this, signed by Dr. Kelly 2 0 from his department. 21 Q. What's the purpos e of documents 2 2 such a s these? 2 3 A. This is to communicate to the user 2 4 of the Monsanto produc t what Mon santo knows 2 5 about it in terms of its toxicity and GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 66 WATER_PCB-SD0000070570 1 contains suggestions on how to handle it 2 safely. 3 Q . I'd like to direct your attention 4 to the fourth paragraph of the exhibit, the 5 one that begins, "based on the animal 6 toxicity data and handling experience," you 7 see that? 8 A. I see that. 9 Q. There is a reference than 1 0 paragraph to "our label." What is the label 1 1 that Dr. Kelly is referring to? 1 2 A. This is the label that is affixed 1 3 to the containers of the product, in this 14 case, Pydraul 150. 15 Q. In this document, Mr. Kelly states 1 6 that "Our label includes the following 17 precautionary information," and following 1 8 that, in capital letters, it reads, "Caution: 1 9 Contains Chlorinated Hydrocarbons." Did 2 0 the -- did Monsanto affix this type of label 21 to all of its chlorinated hydrocarbon 22 products during this time ? 2 3 A. I can only speak for the 2 4 chlorinated hydrocarbons I was f amiliar and 2 5 involved with and I would say yes. I don't GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 67 WATER_PCB-SD0000070571 1 know if other chlorinated hydrocarbons with 2 which I had no involvement had the same 3 label . I can't speak for them. 4 Q. Would or did Monsanto's Aroclor 5 products bear a label such as this? 6 A. This identical label, identical 7 wording. 8 Q. Aside from this type of label, did 9 Monsanto provide the same precautionary 1 0 information in some other form? 11 A. Yes. 1 2 Q. How would they provide, how did 1 3 Monsanto provide that information? I'm 1 4 referring to the time period around 1963, 15 now . 1 6 A. Yes. There were product bulletins 17 which contained sections on toxicity and safe 1 8 handling that contained this kind of 1 S information, probably a little more elaborate 2 0 in form, a little more detail. 2 1 Q. Were product bulletins of the kind 22 you just described sent to Monsanto's 2 3 customers for its Aroclor products? 2 4 A . Yes, sir. 2 5 Q. In 1963? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST.LOUIS, MISSOURI 68 WATER PCB-SD0000070572 1 A . Yes, sir. 2 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: We'll set 3 Exhibit 1 aside. 4 I'd like to ask the reporter to 5 mark as Papageorge Exhibit Number 2 a 6 four-page document bearing the production 7 numbers FRL 001840 through FRL 001843, 8 consecutively. Appears to be on Mons an to 9 Company letterhead and is dated March 3rd, 10 1 9 6 9. 1 1 (Papageorge Deposition 1 2 Exhibit 2 marked for 1 3 identification.) 1 4 BY MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: 1 5 Q. Mr. Papageorge, I'm handing you 1 6 what we've had marked for identification as 17 Papageorge Exhibit Number 2. I'd like to 1 8 give you an opportunity to review that 1 9 document, and please indicate me -- indicate 2 0 to me when you have finished your review. 2 1 (Witness peruses said 2 2 document.) 2 3 A. I have reviewed the document. 2 4 Q. Have you seen this document 2 5 before, sir? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 69 WATER_PCB-SD0000070573 1 A . Yes, I have. 2 Q . Can you tell me what it is? 3 A. This is a, a copy of a letter from 4 Monsanto to customers of PCBs, informing them 5 a s of the date of this letter, which is March 6 3rd, 1969, of the knowledge that Monsanto had 7 regarding PCBs and presence in the 8 environment. 9 Q . Was this letter sent to Mr. Ray 10 Clark? 11 A. It was. 1 2 Q. And how do you know that? 1 3 A. ! A. Well, two ways. First of 14 all, there's a copy of his -- of the sheet on 1 5 which Mr. Clark's name appears as one of the 1 6 recipients of this letter, and the other is 17 that I have personal knowledge that Mr. Clark 1 8 and his company were on a master list of 1 9 Monsanto's customers of PCBs. 2 0 Q. Are Monsanto's Aroclorproducts 21 water s oluble ? 22 A . No. Well, it depends on your 2 3 definition, sir, of -- they are very 2 4 insoluble, but with modern days of analytical 2 5 methodology, they can be detected in the GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 70 WATER_PCB-SD0000070574 1 parts per billion range. 2 Q. Okay. I think I understand the 3 limitations on your answer. I'd like to 4 direct your attention to the second page of 5 what we've had marked a s Exhibit 2, the third 6 paragraph in particular on that page , 7 contains a sentence which reads , 8 "polychlorinated biphenyls are s table 9 chemical compounds which are essentially 1 0 insoluble in water." 11 Is that basically a true 1 2 statement? 1 3 A . Yes, it is. 1 4 Q If one of Monsanto's Aroclor 1 5 produc ts containing PCBs is placed on a wood 1 6 surface , will the wood absorb the Aroclor 17 product? 1 8 A. Yes. I hesitate because I don't 1 9 know how deep the penetration will be, 2 0 depending on the density of the wood, the 2 1 presence of moisture in the wood, other 2 2 materials, but there will be some penetration 2 3 into the wood, yes. 24 Q. With respect to the Aroclor which 2 5 is absorbed by the wood, is it possible to GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MIS S OURI 71 WATER_PCB-SD0000070575 1 wash that A r o c1o r out of the wood using only 2 water? 3 A. I would suggest no, for all 4 practical purposes. 5 Q. Can you wash that Aroclor out of 6 the wood by swabbing the wood with a sponge 7 in water? 8 A. Only if the Aroclor or PCB is on 9 the surface. If it's penetrated, it becomes 1 0 more difficult. 11 MR. HUELSMAN: I have to change 1 2 tapes . 1 3 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: Do you want 1 4 to announce this is the end of tape one? 1 5 MR. HUELSMAN: It's flashing right 1 6 now. 1 7 This is the end of tape 1. 1 8 (Pause, to change videotapes) 1 9 BY MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: 2 0 Q. Mr. Papageorge, we were just 2 1 talking about placing an Aroclor product on a 2 2 wood surface, and if that Aroclor were 2 3 absorbed into the wood, whether it could be 2 4 removed from the wood using just water, and 2 5 then whether it could be removed from the GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MIS S OURI 72 WATER PCB-SD0000070576 1 wood using a sponge and water. Could you 2 remove the absorbed Aroclor from the wood 3 using a mop and water? 4 MS. SOBEL: David, I'm going to 5 object here, because your questioning is very 6 general and you are posing hypothetical 7 questions calling for speculation on the part 8 of the witness without knowing the specific 9 density or anything like that of the wood. 1 0 BY MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: 11 Q. Can you answer the question as 12 posed, Mr. Papageorge? 1 3 A. I can answer. 1 4 Q. What would your answer be? 1 5 A. Since PCBs are not soluble in 16 water, using just a water flow or even an 17 abrasive action with a sponge or a mop, there 1 8 just is no way to encourage that PCB to 1 9 transfer to the water phase. It will remain 2 0 in place. 2 1 Q . I'd like to direct your attention 2 2 again to Exhibit 2. Do you recall whether 23 Monsanto received any response from Mr. Clark 2 4 or anyone else a t electronic components to 25 Mr . Wheeler's letter? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 73 WATER_PCB-SD0000070577 1 A . Certainly. 2 Q . Do you recall what that response 3 was? 4 A. Mr . Cl ark, along with others who 5 received this, called their normal contacts 6 within Monsanto to inquire for more details 7 and to propos e more dialogue between Mons anto 8 and the customers. 9 Q . I'd like to direct your attention 1 0 to the second-to-last paragraph of the 11 letter, which is on the page bearing the 12 production number FRL 1842. It's the 13 paragraph that begins, "Additionally, 1 4 Monsanto will continue to exercise --" Do you 1 5 see that? 1 6 A . Ido. 17 Q. Actually, let me read the whole 1 8 sentence because I want to ask you a question 1 9 or two about that sentence. It says, 2 0 "Monsanto will continue to exercise the 2 1 highest degree of control in its 22 manufacturing, s hipping and storage of PCB -- 2 3 as we do with all products." What did 2 4 Monsanto do to exercise the highest degree of 2 5 control in shipping PCBs in 1969? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 74 WATER_PCB-SD0000070578 1 A . Well, that covers many types of 2 activities and inspections, and the like. 11 3 starts with the selection of the proper 4 container, and by proper container , I've used 5 a s a n example a steel drum with the proper 6 steel thickness , the proper gasketing 7 material where the sides meet the bottom and 8 the top. It involves the selection of the 9 right tank trucks, and by "right," I'm 10 talking here, again, about the right 11 structure o f the vehicle i n terms o f its 1 2 flanges, and its valves, and its pipelines 1 3 that are associated with i t , the use of the 1 4 right kinds of hoses, tank cars again, they 1 5 must be, of course, all of these must be road 1 6 worthy. They can't use broken-down tank cars 1 7 to ship this, these kinds of materials. It 1 8 involves the presence of the right kinds of 1 9 accessories to the tank car to help with the 2 0 various unloading conditions that are present 21 a t each of the cus tomers. 2 2 Q . Let me stop you right there. What 2 3 kind of accessories are you referring to? 24 A. Well, for example, a, an 2 5 oppor tunity to attach a pipe or hose to the GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 75 WATER_PCB-SD0000070579 1 bottom of the car, and that the valve that 2 keeps the contents from comingout the bottom 3 is a reliable valve that can withstand a lot 4 of, a lot of service, or, or it also involves 5 the presence a t the top of the car, a t the 6 dome , the proper kind of cover that is 7 clamped shut so it can takemiles and miles 8 of rough railroad movement, and even when 9 open, that there is in some cases the 1 0 availability of a, of a, of avalve and the 1 1 necessary piping so that the customer, who 12 does not have a pump,can use gas or air to 1 3 push the material out of the car, and 1 4 preferably that removal of the material is 1 5 not done out of the bottom of the car but 1 6 preferably out the top. In case there's a, a 17 break in the system, it don't lose the whole 1 8 car on to the ground. 1 9 The use of heavy wall or heavy 2 0 steel ends on the car, in case there's, the 2 1 tank car is involved in a railroad collision 2 2 that it can withstand some collision, impact. 2 3 Q. bet me stop you again. Earlier, 2 4 and when I asked you about the accessories , 2 5 the first that you mentioned, I believe, was GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 76 WATER_PCB-SD0000070580 1 the opportunity to attach a pipe or a hose to 2 the bottom of the tank car. Whose 3 responsibility was it to provide that pipe or 4 hose? Monsanto's responsibility or was it 5 the customer's responsibility? 6 A. 11 was -- it's the customer's 7 responsibility to provide that hose,but it's 8 Monsanto's responsibility to check that that 9 valve is functioning properly before it 10 leaves Monsanto's plant. 11 Q. You had mentioned earlier steel 12 drums as part of the selection of a proper 1 3 container. Could you describe those drums in 1 4 a little greater detail? 1 5 A. I don't know where to start. 1 6 frankly . 1 7 Q. What size drum is it we're talking 1 8 about? 1 9 A. These are 55-gallon containers or 20 32-gallon containers, or 5-gallon pails. 2 1 They are, the barrels are the typical types 2 2 that many of us have seen with the two ridges 2 3 around the sides of the steel drum and 2 4 because the PCBs are heavy liquids, it 2 5 requires a heavier steel than, say, a water GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 77 WATER_PCB-SD0000070581 1 drum, and because PCBs do tend to dissolve 2 many caulking materials, the material that is 3 used to seal that edge where the sides meets 4 the bottom must resist this, any softening 5 action by the contents of the barrel. 6 Q To be road worthy , did such 7 containers -- I ' m ref erring now to the steel 8 drums that you'v e described -- have to b e 9 free of any holes or leaks? 1 0 A . Oh , ce r t a i n 1 y . 11 Q. The sentence that we were 1 2 referring to in Exhibit 2, in that 1 3 second-to-1 ast paragraph, also refers to the 1 4 highest degree of control in Monsanto's 1 5 storage of PCBs. What did Monsanto do to 1 6 exercise the highest degree of control in 17 storing PCBs in 1969? 1 8 A. Well, there again, the material is 1 9 stored in tanks, vessels that are, of course, 2 0 checked for any leakage or weakness in their 2 1 structure. They are, of course, checked to 2 2 see that they are able to, I'm going to call 2 3 it breathe, so that when the material is 2 4 pumped into or out of it, the tank do e s n' t 2 5 either implode, collapse inward, or be put GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 78 WATER_PCB-SD0000070582 1 under such strain when being filled that it 2 develops breaks or leaks anywhere in its its 3 makeup . So there, it's a case of a s turdy 4 enough tank to withstand a heavy material . 5 Q . Why did Mons anto take these steps 6 in shipping and s toring PCB s ? 7 MR. DAVIDSON: David, it seems to 8 me that the issue r here, involves what 9 Universal or other parts o f Universal were 1 0 doing and not what Monsanto was doing or may 11 have done . The t ype s of storage that we did 1 2 or the types of containers that we used. 1 3 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: We will be 1 4 getting to that within the next two 15 questions. 1 6 MR. DAVIDSON: Okay, well, I'm -1 7 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: Just to let 1 8 you know, Gerard, what I'm doing is, I'd like 1 9 to have some sense from the sole supplier of 20 PCBs in the United States at this time what 21 it considered to be an adequate degree of 22 control in the shipping and storage of PCBs. 2 3 MR. DAVIDSON: Okay, well, I ' m 2 4 concerned about the concentration on what we 2 5 did that doesn't appear to be connected to GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 79 WATER_PCB-SD0000070583 1 what your adversary did or what Universal 2 did. If you want to question him about what 3 they did and what he knew about it, and how 4 it compared, fine, but you may be talking 5 about apples and oranges when you are talking 6 about storage of chemicals a t a 7 chemical-producing plant , as opposed to a 8 plant that was manufacturing capacitors . 9 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: We may be 10 butif we are going to compare, we have to 11 have something to compare to. 1 2 MR. DAVIDSON: Well, you can ask 1 3 him by telling him what they were doing, or 1 4 what you understand they were doing, or what 1 5 he knows they were doing and ask him what he 1 6 thought of it. 17 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: Okay. Are 1 8 you instructing him not to answer my last 1 9 question? 20 MR. DAVIDSON: No, I'm not 21 instructing him not to answer. 2 2 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: Okay. 2 3 MR. DAVIDSON : But I mean, I want 2 4 to get on with it and I wantto get this over 2 5 today. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 80 WATER_PCB-SD0000070584 1 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: We are doing 2 that. 3 MR. DAVIDSON: And I'm a little 4 concerned about the concentration on what 5 appears to be only Mons anto's conduct. 6 BY MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: 7 Q . Having said that, Mr. Papageorge, 8 could you answer my last question? 9 A. I've forgotten the question. 1 0 MR. DAVIDSON: You can have it 11 repeated if you wish. 1 2 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: Could we 1 3 have the last question repeated, please? 1 4 Actually, let me just read it, because I 1 5 think I've got it. 16 BY MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: 17 Q. Why did Monsanto take these steps 1 8 in shipping and storing PCBs? 1 9 A. These reflect the, the standard 2 0 kinds of practices that Monsanto followed for 21 its industrial chemicals. They ' re based on 2 2 the need to keep any of these industrial 23 chemicals from getting out into the air or 2 4 the ground. I don't know how else to explain 25 except that this is almost like breathing . GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 81 WATER_PCB-SD0000070585 1 It's accepted as the normal standard in the 2 proper handling of chemicals, and the intent, 3 here, is don't have a leaky, sloppy tank, 4 don't have a tank car that leaks a s it's on 5 its way to the customer, a drum that really 6 won't hold the contents of the material. 7 Keep it contained is the message, whether 8 it's PCBs, or rubber chemicals, or muriatic 9 acid or whatever the product is. 1 0 Q. Did Monsanto communicate that 11 message to its PCB customers in 1969? 1 2 A. I don't recall any specificeffort 1 3 to convey that kind of message because that 1 4 was believed to be the way responsible 1 5 industry behaved. 1 6 Q . Subsequent to the March 3rd, 1 9 6 9, 17 letter from Monsanto, did Monsanto 1 8 communicate to its PCB customers that they 1 9 should exercise the highest degree of control 2 0 in their storage of PCB products? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. You can set Exhibit Number 2 2 3 aside . 2 4 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: I'd like to 2 5 ask the reporter to mark as Papageorge . GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 82 WATER_PCB-SD0000070586 1 Exhibit Number 3 a eight-page document 2 bearing the production numbers FRL 001844 3 through FRL 0 01 8 51 , and for the record , I 4 will describe the exhibit a s consis ting of 5 two pages, the first two pages which appear 6 to be a letter on Monsanto letterhead dated 7 February 9th, 1970, addressed to "Dear Sir" 8 and signed by Donald A. Olson, references a n 9 attachment. I believe the attachment, 1 0 bearing the production numbers 14846 through 11 the end of the exhibit, consist of an article 1 2 from "Chemical Week" dated October 29th, 13 1969, heading appears to be "Environment." 1 4 (Papageorge Deposition 1 5 Exhibit 3 marked for 16 identification . ) 1 7 BY MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: 1 8 Q. Mr. Papageorge , I'm handing you 1 9 what we've had marked for identification a s 2 0 Papageorge Exhibit Number 3. I'd like to ask 2 1 you to take whatever time you feel is 22 necessary to review that document to get 2 3 familiar with it. 24 I a m going to ask you questions 2 5 only about the two-page letter a t the GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 83 WATER_PCB-SD0000070587 1 beginning of the exhibit. Feel free to 2 review as much of it as you feel is necessary 3 to get comfortable with it. 4 (Witness peruses said 5 document . ) 6 A. I have reviewed it and I'm 7 f amiliar with this letter. 8 Q. And how are you familiar with this 9 letter? 1 0 A . Oh, I was involved in drafting it, 11 and I was present when it was being mailed. 1 2 Q . Can you tell me what this letter 1 3 is? 1 4 A. This letter is Monsanto's at tempt 15 to communicate to its customers on record of 1 6 PCB products the latest information Monsanto 17 had regarding the presence of PCBs in the 1 8 environment, and it also mentions in the 1 9 writing, in the letter, the products with 20 Monsanto trademarks that contained PCBs. 2 1 Q. Do you recognize that to be Mr . 22 Olson's signature on the second page of the 2 3 exhibit? 24 A. I do, yes. 2 5 Q. Do you know whe ther this letter GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 84 WATER_PCB-SD0000070588 1 was sent to Universal Manufacturing 2 Corporation? 3 A. They -- no, not this particular 4 version. Ah, I'm sorry, let me think . Yes, 5 they did get this one, yeah. 6 Q. What are you thinking of that 7 leads you to answer that they did receive 8 this version of this letter? 9 A. Well, this particular version of 1 0 theletter was sent to customers of Pydraul, 11 Turbinol, Therminol, and as a customer of 1 2 Pydraul 150, Universal was on the mailing 1 3 list and did receive a copy. 1 4 Q. Is there another version of this 1 5 letter that was sent to Monsanto's Aroclor 1 6 customers? J 17 A. There were several versions, 1 8 primarily differing in the last paragraphs, 1 9 last paragraph. 2 0 MS. SOBEL: David, I'm going to 2 1 object to the use of the word "receive," I 2 2 think you really mean to say "send" to 2 3 Universal . 2 4 BY MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: 25 Q. Taking Counsel up on the GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 85 WATER_PCB-SD0000070589 1 suggestion, is your testimony any different? 2 A . Well, I know we sent it, and Mr. 3 Clark and I -- Mr. Clark indicated he had 4 received it, so -- 5 Q. And you are referring to what 6 we've had marked a s Exhibit 3 ? 7 A. And other versions. 8 Q . Okay. Do you recall approximately 9 when Mr. Clark indicated that he had received 1 0 this document or this letter? 11 A. Sometime before the summer of 1 2 1970, a few months after this. 1 3 Q. How did the last paragraph differ 1 4 in this version, the last paragraph in this 1 5 version differ from versions, or paragraphs 1 6 in other versions? It's inartfully put, but 17 if you can, answer that question. 1 8 A. I remember specifically the, the 1 9 one that went to the electrical equipment 2 0 customers in which there is reference, and I 2 1 don't recall the exact words, that "As 2 2 manufacturers of electrical equipment, you 2 3 use products such as," and it mention a few 24 trade names like Pyranol and Inerteen, which 2 5 are trademarks of other companies. There is GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 86 WATER_PCB-SD0000070590 1 a specific reference to the electrical 2 application on those versions that went to 3 the electrical customers. 4 Q. I'd like to direct your attention 5 to the first sentence of the last paragraph 6 that we have here a s Exhibit 3. That 7 sentence reads, "We feel that all possible 8 care should be taken in the application, 9 processing and effluent disposal of these 10 products to prevent them becoming 11 environmental contaminants." Was that 1 2 sentence included in the version sent to the 1 3 electrical equipment manufacturers? 1 4 A . Yes. 1 5 Q. Was that sentence included in 1 6 every version of this letter that was sent? 17 A. Ye s . 1 8 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: Okay , you 19 can set Exhibit Number 3 aside. 2 0 I'm asking the reporter to mark as 2 1 P apageorge Exhibit Number 4 for 22 identification a two-page document bearing 2 3 the production numbers FRL 002052 and FRL 2 4 002053. It appears to be a letter on 2 5 Monsanto letterhead dated June 11, 1970. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 87 WATER_PCB-SD0000070591 1 That is, that's the first page. Accompanying 2 that on the second page is a table with the 3 heading "Monsanto Company Regional Sales 4 Offices. " 5 (Papageorge Deposition 6 Exhibit 4 marked for 7 identification.) 8 BY MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: 9 Q . Mr. Papageorge, I'm handing you 1 0 what we've had marked for identification as 1 1 Papageorge Exhibit Number 4. I'd like to ask 1 2 you to review this exhibit and let me know 1 3 when you've finished with your review. 1 4 (Witness peruses said 1 5 document.) 1 6 A . I have reviewed it. 17 Q . Have you seen the letter that -- 1 8 Excuse me. Let me just finish the 1 9 sentence so we have a clear record. 2 0 Have you seen the letter that's 21 the first page of this exhibit? 22 A . I have. . 2 3 Q. When have you seen that letter? 2 4 A. Well, Isaw a draft of this before 25 it was mailed. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 88 WATER_PCB-SD0000070592 1 Q Did you see the final signed 2 version of this letter? 3 A. Yes, I did. 4 Q . Did you see that final signed 5 version sometime shortly after June 11th, 6 1970 ? 7 A. 0 n or about that date, yes, sir. 8 Q. Was N. T. Johnson Monsanto's 9 Marketing Manager For Industrial Fluids in 1 0 June of 1970? 11 A . He was. 1 2 Q Do you recognize that to be Mr. 1 3 Johnson's signature on the first page of this 1 4 exhibit? 1 5 A. It is it is. 1 6 Q. The first sentence of this letter 1 7 reads, "In February, we advised you of the 1 8 newspaper and magazine articles indicating 1 9 that polychlorinated biphenyls," paren, all 2 0 caps, "(PCBs) have been discovered at some 2 1 points in submarine, aquatic and wildlife 2 2 environments and might be environmental 23 contaminants." 2 4 Is the reference to Monsanto 2 5 advising someone in February a reference to GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 89 WATER_PCB-SD0000070593 1 the letter that we have had marked as 2 P apageorge Exhibit 3 ? 3 A . To that letter or something very 4 similar. 5 Q. Okay. By June of 1970, was 6 Monsanto offering Pydraul products in which 7 the Aroclor components had been replaced by 8 new formulations? 9 A. Yes. 1 0 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER : I think you 11 can set Exhibit Number 4 aside. 1 2 Off the record. 1 3 (Discussion off the record.) 1 4 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: Let's go 1 5 back on at this point. 1 6 I am asking the court reporter to 17 mark as Papageorge Exhibit Number 5, a 1 8 two-page document bearing the production 1 9 numbers FRL 002060 and FRL 002061. The first 2 0 page appears to be a memorandum on Monsanto 2 1 stationery from a C. L. Bradford - G. O., 2 2 dated April 30th, 1971, subject is indicated 2 3 a s PCB letter. It's followed by a series of 2 4 names a s to whom this memorandum was sent. 2 5 There is also a fairly 1 eng thy column of GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 90 WATER_PCB-SD0000070594 1 people who received copies or are shown a s 2 having received copies. 3 The second page is a letter on 4 Mons anto letterhead dated April 15th, 1971, 5 addr e s s e d to "Dear Sir," signed by someone 6 identified a s C. Larry Bradford, Product 7 Manager, Hydraulics and Lubricants. 8 (Papageorge Deposition 9 Exhibit 5 marked for 10 identification.) 11 BY MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: 1 2 Q . Mr. Papageorge, I'm handing you 1 3 what we've had marked as Papageorge Exhibit 5 1 4 for identification, and I'd like to ask you 1 5 to take whatever time you feel is necessary 1 6 to review that document and familiarize 1 7 yourself with it. 1 8 (Witness peruses said 1 9 document.) 20 A . I have reviewed it. 2 1 Q. Mr. P apageorge , have you s e e n 2 2 either the memor andum that comprises the 2 3 first page of this exhibit, or the 1e 11 e r 2 4 that comprises the second page of thi s 25 exhibit? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 91 WATER_PCB-SD0000070595 1 A. I have seen it before, yes, sir. 2 Q. Have you seen both pages of this 3 exhibit? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q . On the April 30th memorandum, it 6 is stated that "The attached letter was sent 7 out to all known P y d r a u1 customers on Apri1 8 15 , 19 7 1. " The attached letter is a 9 reference to the second page of this exhibit? 1 0 A. It is. 1 1 Q. Do you know whether Universal 1 2 Manufacturing Corporation received a copy of 1 3 the April 15, 1971, letter which comprises 1 4 the second page of this exhibit? 1 5 A. Yes, they did. 1 6 Q. How do youknow that? 17 A. Because I, at the time, knew who 1 8 was on their list of customers of Pydrauls 1 9 and I knew that list was used to mail letters 20 of this type for general mailing. 2 1 Q. I'd like to direct your attention 2 2 to the first sentence of the April 15th, 2 3 1971, letter. It states, "Over the past year 2 4 or so, we have written you several letters 2 5 concerning polychlorinated biphenyls and have GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 92 WATER_PCB-SD0000070596 1 urged that care be taken to prevent the 2 escape of hy dr au1ic fluids containing PCBs 3 into the environment." 4 The reference to several letters 5 include -- does the reference to several 6 letters in this sentence include the letters 7 that we have looked a t a s Exhibits 3 and 4 ? 8 A. Yes . 9 Q. Are there other letters that are 1 0 included in that reference that we have not 11 marked a s exhibits? 1 2 A. There could be. It's been so long 1 3 and so many letters did go out, that I -- 1 4 there could well be other letters that went 1 5 out in that period of time. 1 6 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: Okay , you 17 can set that exhibit aside. 1 8 I'm asking the reporter to mark as 1 9 Papageorge Exhibit Number 6 for 20 identification a three-page document bearing 2 1 the production numbers FRL 001862through FRL 2 2 001864. The first two pages of the exhibit 2 3 appear to be a letter on Monsanto letterhead 2 4 dated August 6th, 1970, bearing the signature 2 5 of Paul G. Benignus. The third page of the GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 93 WATER_PCB-SD0000070597 1 exhibit consists of a, document entitled 2 "Recipients of P. G. Benignus newsletter 3 dated August 6, 1970, are as follows." 4 (Papageorge Deposition 5 Exhibit 6 marked for 6 identification.) 7 BY MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: 8 Q . Mr . Papageorge, I'm handing you 9 what we've had marked for identification as 1 0 Papageorge Exhibit 6. I'd like to ask you to 11 review that document and let me know when you 1 2 have finished your review. 13 (Witness peruses said 1 4 document.) 1 5 A. I have reviewed it. 1 6 Q . Mr. Papageorge, have you seen what 1 7 we've had marked as Exhibit 6 before? 1 8 A. Yes, I have. 1 9 Q . Can you tell me what it is? 2 0 A. This is a copy of a letter that 2 1 Mr. Benignus, who was the Marke ting Manager 22 For Dielectric Fluids a t that time, sent to 2 3 his customers who manufactured capacitors 2 4 using PCB fluids, informing them that a 25 modified PCB was available in test GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 94 WATER_PCB-SD0000070598 1 quantities, that some of this material was 2 being sent to each of the customers so that 3 they could evaluateit to determine if it was 4 suitable for their produc tion needs. 5 Q. Do you know whether a copyof Mr. 6 Benignus' August 6, 1970, letter was sent to 7 Universal M an ufacturing Corporation? 8 A . It was. 9 Q . How do youknow that? 1 0 A . Well, the third sheet in this 11 exhibit is a copy of the recipients of this 1 2 letter, and Mr. Clark and Electronic 1 3 Components are listed. 1 4 Q. Was it Mr. Benignus ' s practice to 1 5 attach a list of recipients to letters such 1 6 as this that he sent to his customers? 1 7 A . Oh , no . 1 8 Q - Was i t 1 9 A . No . 20 Q Do you 21 have attached a list of recipients of this 2 2 letter to this exhibit? 2 3 A . This, this third page is not part 2 4 of the original mailing. This third page is 2 5 apparently produced for legal purpo s e s , here. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 95 WATER_PCB-SD0000070599 1 Q. Okay, I think I may have 2 misphrased my question. I apologize for 3 that. Was it the practice of Monsanto in the 4 ordinary course of its business to keep a 5 list of recipients of letters that were sent 6 by Monsanto such as what we've had marked a s 7 Exhibit 12346? 8 A. Oh, certainly , yes. 9 Q. What is the modified PCB that you 1 0 were referring to in your testimony? 11 A. It was called MCS 1016. 1 2 Q. Is MCS 1016 the same as Aroclor 1 3 10 16? 1 4 A. Yes. 1 5 Q. Did MCS 1016 contain PCBs? 1 6 A. Yes. 17 Q. Okay. During the period from 1969 1 8 to 1971, did Monsanto warn purchasers of its 1 9 PCB products to take care to prevent the 20 escape of PCBs into the environment? 2 1 A. Yes. 22 Q. How did Mons an to warn its PCB 2 3 customers to prevent the escape of PCBs into 2 4 the environment during this time? 2 5 A. Through letters , by personal GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST . LOUIS , MISSOURI 96 WATER_PCB-SD0000070600 1 communication, by meetings with customer 2 representatives in groups, and of cours e, by 3 labels, and by inserting that cautionary 4 statement on many of their documents, 5 including invoices, bills of lading, and so 6 on . 7 Q . The cautionary s ta tement that you 8 are referring to is theone contained in -- 9 let me ask it this way, to save time. What 1 0 is the cautionary statement that you are 11 referring to? 1 2 A. It was a paragraph, and I confess 1 3 I don't recall all the exact words but in 1 4 essence, the paragraph indicated, "This 1 5 product contains polychlorinated biphenyls 1 6 which have been found in environmental 17 samples. Extreme care must be taken in 1 8 handling, disposal, use, to avoid getting 1 9 into the environment," that kind of message 2 0 was added to the label. 2 1 Q. Do you know whether Monsanto 2 2 warned Universal Manufacturing Corporation by 2 3 each of the various means you've just 2 4 identified during the period from 1969 to 2 5 19 7 1? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 97 WATER_PCB-SD0000070601 1 A . We did, yes. 2 Q. Did Monsanto provide its PCB 3 customers with any guidelines for the proper 4 handling and disposal of PCBs during this 5 period? 6 A. We certainly reviewed with them. 7 I don ' t recall any specific piece of paper 8 that had it all in one document, and we're 9 talking now through 1971. 1 0 Q That's correct. 1 1 A . I know for a certainty that in my 1 2 visit t o the Connecticut plant, we reviewed 1 3 this i n depth for more than half a day in 1 4 terms of the kinds of things that we were 1 5 able to do. By "we," I mean Monsanto, the 1 6 fact that it succeeded for us might be of 17 interest to them, but of course, they had to 1 8 adapt their particular facility to suit their 1 9 unique needs, we could not tell them 2 0 specifically because we were not in any 2 1 position to know everything they had in their 22 plan, and we were not really in the business 2 3 of being design engineers for -- to take care 2 4 of the multitude of probiems that could exist 2 5 out there, but we were able to share with GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 98 WATER_PCB-SD0000070602 1 them the kinds of things that we did and hope 2 that they could use those thoughts. That 3 kind of discussion I know took place. 4 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: Okay. I'd 5 like to have the reporter mark as Papageorge 6 Exhibit Number 7 for identification a 7 multipage document bearing the production 8 numbers FRL 001599 consecutive through FRL 9 001606. The, purely for identification 1 0 purpos es , for the record, the first page of 11 this exhibit bears a legend a t the top 1 2 r e ading "Copy , " the date is indicated a s July 1 3 1971. The job is shown as "PCB bulletin." 1 4 Below that is a heading which reads 1 5 "(COVER)," "Handling, Waste Control & 1 6 Disposal of Polychlorinated Biphenyls -- 17 Produced and distributed as a service to 1 8 indus tryby Mons an to (Logo) . " 1 9 (Papageorge Deposition 2 0 Exhibit 7 marked for 2 1 identification . ) 22 BY MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: 2 3 Q. Mr. Papageorge, I'm handing you 2 4 what we've had marked for identification a s 2 5 Papageorge Exhibit Number 7 , and a s with the GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 99 WATER_PCB-SD0000070603 1 previous exhibits, I'd like to ask you to 2 take the opportunity to review it for however 3 long you choose in order to get familiar with 4 it? 5 (Witness peruses said 6 document.) 7 A . I have reviewed the document. 8 BY MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: 9 Q . Sir, have you seen this document 1 0 before? 11 A . Yes, I have . 1 2 Q. Can you tell me what it is? 1 3 A . This is a draft of a bulletin 1 4 which was intended to share with the reader 1 5 some o f the kinds of activities that should 1 6 take place or could take place to reduce the 1 7 chances that PCBs would enter the 1 8 environment. 1 9 Q. Do you know who was involved in 2 0 preparing this draft? 2 1 A. Well, I was one of the individuals 22 involved. The marketing representatives were 2 3 participated and the manufacturing, Mons anto 2 4 manufacturing representative also 2 5 participated. That's about it. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 10 0 WATER PCB-SD0000070604 1 Q . You indicated that this is a draft 2 of a bulletin. Was a final bulletin of this 3 sort sent, actually sent out to Monsanto's 4 PCB customers? 5 A. To the best of my recollection, 6 yes. 7 Q. I'd like to be able to show you 8 that final bulletin. I don't know that I 9 have it. Can you tell me from looking at 1 0 this draft how the final version differed 11 from this draft? 1 2 A. Well, for example, the draft would 1 3 not have "Copy" on it and it wouldn't. It 1 4 wouldn't have parentheses "Cover" on it, it 1 5 would be a glossy hard cover on it, and where 1 6 it says "Monsanto logo," it would have the 17 logo printed on it. There is areference, I 1 8 note, back here where it says, "The drawing 1 9 below," that is missing. 20 Q. Okay, let me direct your attention 21 to the third page of theexhibit, bearing the 2 2 production numbe r FRL 0 0 16 0 1 . 2 3 A. I have it. 2 4 Q. Do you see the section under the 2 5 title "In General" that reads "Every care GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 10 1 WATER_PCB-SD0000070605 1 should be taken care by users of PCB- 2 containing products toprevent entry into the 3 environment through spills, leaks , disp o sal, 4 vaporization or everyday use in handling"? 5 A. I do. 6 Q. Do you know whe ther the final 7 version of the bulletin was sent out by 8 Monsanto to its PCB customers contained that 9 language? 1 0 A . Yes. 11 Q, Do you know whether Universal 1 2 Manufacturing Corporation received -- was 1 3 sent a copy -- 1 4 A. Yes. 1 5 Q. -- ofthe finalbulletin? 1 6 A. Yes . 17 Q. Do you know whether Universal, in 1 8 fact, received a copy of the final bulletin? 1 9 A. I have no reason to believe they 2 0 did not receive it. Again, in subs e qu e n t 21 discussions with Mr. Clark, I have every 2 2 reason to be 1ieve that they were right in 23 tune with all of this. That' s a s close a s 24 I -- I just don't recall any discussion that 25 centered on "Did you actually receive it," GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 10 2 WATER_PCB-SD0000070606 1 but -- 2 Q Okay. 3 A -- their behavior was such to 4 sugges t that they did receive it. 5 Q Okay, I'd like to direct your 6 attention on the same page to the paragraph, 7 second paragraph, begins , "Tight maintenance 8 of old facilities"? 9 A I see it. 1 0 Q Okay, do you see the nine 1 1 guidelines -- 1 2 A I do. 1 3 Q -- below that? 1 4 A I do . 1 5 Q Do you know whether the final 1 6 version of the bulletin that was sent by 17 Monsanto to Universal contained that 1 8 paragraph and the nine guidelines? 1 9 A Yes, it did. 2 0 Q How do you know that? 2 1 A I just, I remember it. I -- 2 2 Q I'd like to direct your attention 2 3 below that. There is a heading which reads 2 4 "Measuring Losses"? 2 5 A . I see. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 10 3 WATER_PCB-SD0000070607 1 Q. Below that, it reads , "A check of 2 how Aroclor is used versus how much is known 3 to be in finished product gives a good 4 estimate of losses . " Do you see that? 5 A. I see that. 6 Q. Do you know whether the final 7 version of the bulletin was sent by Monsanto 8 to Universal contained that language? 9 A. It did. 1 0 Q. Do you know whether Universal 11 performed such a check? 1 2 A. I do not. 1 3 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: I think you 14 can set Exhibit Number 7 aside. 1 5 I'd like to ask the reporter to 16 mark as Papageorge Exhibit Number 8 for 17 identification, a one-page document bearing 1 8 the production number FRL 002144. It appears 1 9 to be a letter dated July 1, 1970, to Mr. 20 Glenn Rayno at Electronic Components Company, 21 902 Crescent Avenue, Bridgeport, Connecticut 22 from W. B. Papageorge, Manager of 2 3 Environmental Control. Copies are also shown 2 4 to have been sent to Mike Gianotti, 25 Electronic Components, and to G. R. Graham in GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST . LOUIS , MIS SOURI 10 4 WATER_PCB-SD0000070608 1 New York. 2 ( Papageorge Deposition 3 Exhibit 8 marked for 4 identification.) 5 BY MR. S CHWARTZ-LEEPER: 6 Q . Mr. Papageorge, you have been 7 handed a copy of what we've had marked as 8 Exhibit Number 8 for identification. I'd 9 like to ask you to take your time to review 1 0 that exhibit and let me know when you are 11 finished with your review. 1 2 (Witness peruses said 1 3 document.) 1 4 A. I have reviewed it. 1 5 BY MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPERS: 1 6 Q Can you tell me what this document 17 is? 1 8 A . It's a copy of a letter I mailed 1 9 in July the 1st, 1970, to a Mr. Ray n o at 20 Electronic Components in Bridgeport. I 21 really cover two or three subjects in it. 22 One is, I had attached copies of Mons anto's 2 3 analytical methods for determining PCBs in 2 4 various samples, and I requested that you 2 5 share with us any comments he may have GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 10 5 WATER PCB-SD0000070609 1 regarding these methods that we were 2 proposing. I referred to my visit a t the 3 plant and my impressions regarding their 4 sincerity and I had confidence, I expressed 5 my confidence that they would improve their 6 methods of control, and I ended up by 7 suggesting that if we didn't control PCBs, 8 states and federal agencies would do it for 9 us, or words to that effect. 10 Q . Earlier I asked you about an 11 individual named Glenn R ayno. Having looked 1 2 a t this document, is your recollection 1 3 refreshed a s to who Mr. Rayno was? 14 A . It's now that I see it in print, 1 5 yes. 1 6 Q Do do you recall now who Mr. Rayno 17 was? 1 8 A . Yes. 1 9 Q . Who was he? 20 A . He was their, the lab guy , as I 21 remember, the technical person there , at the 22 site. 2 3 Q. Okay. Do you see the reference to 2 4 Mike Gianotti? 25 A. Yes. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 10 6 WATER_PCB-SD0000070610 1 Q. Do you recall who Mr. Gianotti 2 was? 3 A. I recall him as a person, a n 4 individual there, but confess I don ' t recall 5 his, his duties or his title . 6 Q. Do you recall ever meeting Mr. 7 Gianotti? 8 A. Yes, a t the plant. 9 Q. I'd like to direct your attention 10 to the third paragraph of your letter, which 11 states, "I personally found our discussions 1 2 at your plant very interesting. We recognize 1 3 that you do have some problems in controlling 1 4 the escape of Aroclors to the environment, 15 but I am impressed with your sincere concern 1 6 and I a m confident that you will be 17 successful in your efforts to improve 1 8 control." Do you recall those discussions? 1 9 A . Yes 2 0 Q . I s there just one such discussion? 2 1 A . At the plant, yes. 2 2 Q Do you recall who was pre sent 2 3 during that discussion? 2 4 A. Well, of course, Mr. Rayno and Mr . 25 Gianotti , and a s I r emembe r, about three GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MISSOURI 10 7 WATER_PCB-SD00000706il 1 other people in the room. I just don't 2 remember who they were now. 3 Q The reference in the next sentence 4 to some problems in controlling the escape of 5 Aroclors to the environment, do you recall 6 what that reference is to? 7 A . A s I recall, there were stains on 8 the floors in the plant , and I was told that 9 this came about through some spills, and this 10 is when we got into a discussion of 11 spills and how were the spills 1 2 addressed, and I remember I mentioned to them 1 3 at the time that in our particular situation, 1 4 we would get the free fluid of the, resulting 1 5 from the spill in some absorbent material 16 like clay, or sawdust, orrags and dispose of 1 7 those properly and we would be very careful 18 about what we did with any hosing down, 1 9 washing down, so that it didn't get into a 2 0 public stream or waterway. Of course, in our 21 situation, we were able to tell them that 22 since we had concrete floors, we put up 2 3 curbing and we also blocked our sewers so 2 4 that the water didn't go into the sewer, that 2 5 we had a t that time plans to put in a, a sump GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 10 8 WATER_PCB-SD0000070612 1 so that any material that did spill would end 2 up in this, really it was a concrete tank 3 below ground level that would capture all o f 4 this. and we could keep it from being 5 distributed across the , the back yard , s o t o 6 speak, and down the s ewer or the local creeks 7 and so on. 8 Q. Now, you indicated that there were 9 stains on the floors in the plant. Did you 1 0 see those stains yourself? 1 1 A. Yes. 1 2 Q. Can you tell me where those stains 1 3 were located within the plant? 1 4 A. Oh, golly, I can't remember that 1 5 detail. You mean under a specific piece of 1 6 equipment and so on? I -- 17 Q . Yes, sir. 1 8 A. I saw so many capacitor plants in 1 9 the two-month period the, there, that I, I 2 0 can't recall this specifical1y. I do 2 1 remember the oil stains . I don't remember 2 2 where they were. 2 3 Q . Let me stop you right there. 2 4 A . Mm-hmm. 2 5 Q You referred to oil stains Were GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 10 9 WATER_PCB-SD0000070613 1 those stains of oil-containing PCBs? 2 A. Well, I call them stains To me, 3 PCBs are oily materials. 4 Q . Okay. 5 A . So the net effect on the surface 6 on which they fall looks like an oil stain, 7 very much like the stain out of my automobile 8 that drips on my garage floor. 9 Q . Okay. Do you recall whether those 1 0 stains were located below machinery used to 11 impregnate capacitors with PCB oil? 1 2 A. Well, certainly it was the area 1 3 where PCB oils were used. There were 1 4 impregnating facilities there. 1 5 Like I said earlier, I saw so many 1 6 plants, I cannot specifically point to this 17 one. The stains could have occurred under 1 8 the impregnating chambers, it could have 1 9 occurred on -- 2 0 MS. SOBEL: Objection. I ask the 2 1 witness not to speculate. 2 2 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: We really 2 3 don't want speculation. 2 4 THE WITNESS: All right. 2 5 BY MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 110 WATER_PCB-SD0000070614 1 0 Do you recall any discussions 2 concerning those stains? 3 A . Yes. Oh, yes. 4 Q. Okay. 5 A. That' s what all this was about . 6 Q. Okay. Do you recall anyone 7 telling you how those stains occurred? 8 A. No. I do not. 9 Q. Do you recall seeing the stains 1 0 anywhere else within this plant? 1 1 A. I saw stains out in the tank car 1 2 unloading area. 1 3 Q Anywhere else? 1 4 A . I do not recall any others. 1 5 Q . I 'd like to direct your attention 1 6 t o the , if reference t o some problems 1 7 in controlling the escape of Aroclors to the 1 8 environment. Aside from what we've just been 1 9 talking about, do you recall any other 2 0 problems in controlling the escape of 2 1 Aroclors to the environment at the Bridgeport 2 2 plant? 2 3 A. I do not. 24 Q. Did you discuss with Universal 2 5 personnel during the visit that you'v e GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 111 WATER_PCB-SD0000070615 1 referred to how they could improve control 2 within the plant? 3 A. Yes,along the lines that I 4 reviewed earlier of the "kinds of things we 5 found successful and hope that you can gain 6 from our experience" type of discussion. 7 Q. Do you recall anything in 8 particular at the Bridgeport plant that would 9 have benefited from improvement in control? 1 0 A. Not specifically, but I can't 11 remember the details at all. 1 2 Q . Let me try coming at it with a 1 3 different question. Do you recall any 1 4 specific control improvements that you 1 5 suggested to the Universal personnel with 1 6 regard to the Bridgeport plant? A. Not specific. I had to speak in 1 8 generalities and the idea was review your 1 9 operations so the PCBs don't get out of 2 0 control. It was, I left it up to them as to 2 1 what it took, specifically, to do that. 2 2 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: Okay, you 2 3 can set Exhibit Number 8 aside. 2 4 (Papageorge Deposition 2 5 Exhibit 9 marked for GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 112 WATER PCB-SD0000070616 1 identification.) 2 BY MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: 3 Q . I've asked the reporter to mark 4 for identification a one-page document 5 bearing the production number FRL 003211 a s 6 Papageorge Exhibit Number 9 for 7 identification. Mr. Papageorge, I'm now 8 handing you Exhibit Number 9. I'd like to 9 ask you to review that document. If you can 1 0 let me know when you've finished with your 1 1 review, I'll follow up with some ques tions 1 2 concerning it. 1 3 (Witness peruses said 1 4 document.) 1 5 A. I have reviewed it. 1 6 Q . I n the cours e of the regular 17 business activities, did Monsanto personnel 1 8 who visited cus tomer facilities prepare 1 9 reports describing what was said and done 2 0 during those visits? 21 A . I didn't hear the first part to 2 2 it. You say a s a routine ? 2 3 0 In the course of their regular 2 4 business ies . 2 5 A . The preparation of the report was GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 113 WATER_PCB-SD0000070617 1 left to the option of the individual. 2 Q . Can you tell me what Exhibit 3 Number 9 is? 4 A. Exhibit Number 9 is a report from 5 the Mons an to sales representative, Randall 6 Graham, repor ting his visit to Electronic 7 Components' plant in Bridgeport, Connecticut, 8 on September the 28th, 1970. He reports to 9 people he spoke with and the subjects 1 0 covered. 11 Q. Do you see your name as one of the 1 2 recipients indicated of Exhibit Number 9? 1 3 A. Ido. 1 4 Q. Do you recall receiving a copy of 1 5 this document? 1 6 A . Yes. 1 7 Q. Okay, earlier, I asked you about 1 8 Mr. Rayno. If you take a look at the middle 1 9 of the page, under "Personnel contacted," Mr. 20 Rayno ' s name is indicated. Does this refresh 21 your recollection as to what position he held 2 2 within the company? 23 A . Yes; chief engineer. I had him a s 24 a top technical individual, yes. 25 Q . And do you see Mr. Gianotti ' s name GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS S OURI 114 WATER_PCB-SD0000070618 1 there? 2 A. Ido. 3 Q . Does that refresh your 4 recollection a s to who he was at Universal? 5 A. Not too much. 6 Q . Okay. 7 A. I still don't know what a 8 technician does a t a plant likethat. 9 Q . Okay. Do you see the handwriting 1 0 in the upper right-hand portion of the, the 11 page, right above Mr. Graham's name ? 1 2 A . I do . 1 3 Q . Do you know what that is? 1 4 A . I ' d b e guessing; I don't know. 1 5 Q . Okay. I'd like to direct your 1 6 attention to the lower right-hand corner of 17 the page. Do you see the handwriting that 1 8 appears there? 1 9 A. Ido. 2 0 Q . Do you know whose handwriting that 2 1 is? 2 2 A. No, I don' t . 23 Q . Do you know a n individual a t 2 4 Mons anto named Jim Bryant? 2 5 A. Yes. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS S OURI 115 WATER PCB-SD0000070619 1 Do you see the reference to Mr. 2 Bryant in the last two sentences of the text 3 of this document? 4 A. Is aw that, yes . 5 Q. Okay. Do you know whe ther the 6 initials in the lower right-hand corner are 7 Mr. Bryant's initials? 8 MS. SOBEL: Objection. He's 9 already testified he didn't know. 1 0 A. I can guess, but I'm not positive 11 MS. SOBEL: I don't want you to 1 2 guess 13 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER I don't want 1 4 you to guess. 1 5 A. I don't know. 1 6 BY MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: 17 Q. Okay. Below your name, there 1 8 appears the name of somebody named 1 9 D. A. Olson. 2 0 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. Who is Mr. Olson? 22 A. He was the of Marketing 23 for Functional Fluids. 2 4 Q. Following the heading labeled 25 "Aroclor," in the text of this document, GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 116 WATER PCB-SD0000070620 1 states "Discussed PCB p ollution situation 2 with Ray Clark. He was not present when Bill 3 P apageorge made presentation. " Do you know 4 what that refers to? 5 A . Yes. 6 Q. What does it refer to? 7 A. When I visited the plant in June 8 of 1970, Ray Clark was out of town. He could 9 not attend the meetings, and Mr. Graham, in 1 0 his subsequent visit, reviewed with Mr. Clark 1 1 the things we reviewed back in June. 1 2 Q. Do you have someunderstanding as 1 3 to what the PCB pollution situation was 1 4 that's referred to in this document? 1 5 A. That's Mr. Graham's description of 16 the PCB environmental issue as Monsanto knew 17 it in 1970, and the kinds of actions that 1 8 Monsanto was taking to communicate, and to 19 test and find out more about i t . 20 Q . Do you know what. specifically 21 the nature of the PCB pollution was that 2 2 Gr ah am was referring to in this document? 2 3 MS. SOBEL: Objection. I don't 2 4 think he said that it did refer to pollution. 2 5 BY MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 117 WATER_PCB-SD0000070621 1 Q Do you see in this document the 2 reference to P C B pollution? 3 A . Yes. 4 Q. Okay, now can you answer my 5 preceding question? 6 A. I think I can. 7 Q . Okay. Go ahead. 8 A. He was referring to the fact that 9 studies in Switz -- in Sweden, studies in 1 0 California, the Great Lakes and the Gulf 11 Coast area were showing the presence of PCBs, 1 2 the PCBs beingfound were the higher 1 3 chlorinated types, that the effect of the 1 4 presence of these PCBs was unknown, then he 15 went on to talk aboutthe fact that Monsanto 1 6 was working to get rid of the higher 1 7 chlorinated types that were being found, 1 8 reformulating some of their products, that we 1 9 had a program of withdrawal of many of the 2 0 applications at that time, these are the 21 kinds of things he was -- he had in mind when 2 2 he talks about the pollution s i tua tion. 2 3 Q. Okay. I'd like to direct your 2 4 attention to the paragraph under the 25 paragraph we were just reading. You see the GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 118 WATER PCB-SD0000070622 1 reference to scrap A r o c1o r and waste being 2 removed from the site? 3 A . Yes. 4 Q. Do you know what the reference to 5 scrap Aroclors was to? 6 A . He was talking about the PCBs that 7 were used a t that plant that, during use, 8 became contaminated to the point where they 9 could no longer be put in electrical 1 0 equipment, could not be reconditioned and 11 recycled, and therefore, were declared as 1 2 scrap, unrecyc1 ab1e, and that that plant at 1 3 the time had a service for disposal of this 1 4 material and the plant was going toreview 1 5 that practice in light of the fact that we 1 6 had offered an incineration service for 17 disposal of liquid wastes of this type. 1 8 Q. I'd like to direct your attention 1 9 to the reference to waste being removed from 2 0 the site. Is there anything other than the 2 1 scrap Aroclor that's being referred to by the 2 2 term "waste"? 23 A. The term "waste" in this context 2 4 refers again to PCB-contaminated items, such 2 5 as rags, and sawdust, and whatever else that GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 119 WATER_PCB-SD0000070623 1 might be present. 2 Q . Do you recall how scrapped Aroclor 3 was kept a t the Bridgeport plant a t the time 4 of your visit to the plant? 5 A. I just recall seeing some drums 6 that were pointed out to me as material that 7 they couldn't recycle that was off to one 8 side. I don't remember anything other than 9 that. 1 0 Q. Do you recall where those drums 11 were within the plant? 12 A. I can't -- I don't know how to 13 describe it. It was a part -- I didn't know 1 4 the equipment or facilities next to it r so I 1 5 can't -- I remember pointing some, gosh, 1 6 three or four drums of material off to one 17 side, there. 1 8 Q. Do you recall how waste such as 1 9 PCB-contaminated rags or sawdust was kept at 2 0 the Bridgeport plant at the time of your 2 1 visit to the plant? 22 A . No , I don't. 2 3 Q Okay . In the next paragraph, the 2 4 one that starts, "Lab studies carried out by 2 5 Electronic Components," did you see such lab GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 12 0 WATER PCB-SD0000070624 1 studies? 2 A. No, because it's my previous 3 letter sending them the analytical methods 4 that enabled them to start studies. When I 5 was there, they didn't have this capability. 6 Q. Subsequent to September 28th, 7 1970, did you ever discuss those lab studies 8 with anyone a t Universal Manufacturing or 9 Electronic Components ? 1 0 A. I don't recall, no. 11 Q . Do you recall whether Mons an to was 1 2 ever provided with copies of those lab 1 3 s tudie s ? 1 4 A. I never saw any. 1 5 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: Counsel, in 1 6 keeping with our prior practice in this case, 17 I ' d like to request the production -- that a 1 8 search be made for the lab studies referred 1 9 to in this exhibit and that if they are 2 0 found, they be produced to us, and in keeping 21 with our prior practice in this case, I would 2 2 certainly follow up with a written request to 2 3 that effect, but I think they are called for. 2 4 MS. SOBEL : The reques t is so 2 5 noted, but I think you already know that we GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 12 1 WATER PCB-SD0000070625 1 have produced everything in this litigation 2 already relating to such lab studies that we 3 have. 4 MS. SOBEL: And I think you also 5 know why, if we don't have it, why we don't 6 have it. 7 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: I know what 8 you ' ve said. I am now requesting that -- 9 MS. SOBEL: 11 continue s to be 1 0 true. 11 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: I am now 1 2 requesting that the search be made for these 1 3 specific documents, whether it be in the 1 4 materials you have already produced to us or 1 5 in materials which have not been produced to 1 6 us, but a s I said, we will follow that up 1 7 with a written request. 1 8 MS . SOBEL: If you are asking for 1 9 us to go back through materials that we've 20 already produced to you because you haven't 2 1 carefully reviewed them, then I ask you to 2 2 review them yourself. 2 3 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: I don't 2 4 think I'm asking that. 2 5 MS . SOBEL: If you are asking us GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 12 2 WATER PCB-SD0000070626 1 to conduct a further search, your request is 2 so noted for the record. I think we should 3 move on. 4 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: I think so. 5 too. 6 BY MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: 7 Q. Mr. Papageorge, do you know who 8 provided the information contained in the 9 paragraph beginning "Lab studies"? 1 0 A . Who provided to whom? 11 Q . Who provided the information 1 2 that's contained in this paragraph to Mr. 1 3 Graham? 1 4 A . I don' t know . 1 5 0 . Do you know whether it was 1 6 Electronic Components or Universal 1 7 Manufacturing? 1 8 A . You are asking me to speculate. 19 Q Do you know how Mr. Graham 2 0 obtained the information contained in this 2 1 particular paragraph? 2 2 A . He obtained it from 2 3 batives of the plant while he was 2 4 there. 2 5 Q Okay. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 12 3 WATER PCB-SD0000070627 1 A . Just who, I don't know. 2 Q . All right. Do you have any reason 3 to believe that this paragraph does not 4 accurately reflect information that was given 5 by plant representatives to Mr. Graham? 6 A. I have noreason to believe so. 7 MS. SOBEL: Just for the record, 8 do you have any reason to believe so or or to 9 not believe so? 1 0 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: If we follow 11 the procedure that Mr. Nardolilly adopted and 1 2 imposed on the deposition of Mr. Rhineheimer 1 3 last week, I would not permit you to ask that 1 4 question now. If we follow the procedure 1 5 that Mr. Talieh imposed at the deposition of 1 6 Mr. Galluzzi over a month ago, with respect 17 to counsel for Transportation, I would not 1 8 permit you to ask that question now. In the 1 9 interests of saving Mr. Papageorge's time, 2 0 though. I'll allow you to ask that question 2 1 now. 2 2 MS. SOBEL: I just want to make 2 3 sure the record is clear, that's all. I'm 2 4 not trying to do my examination a t this 2 5 point. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 12 4 WATER_PCB-SD0000070628 1 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: Other than 2 that one ques tion, but please go ahead and 3 answer the question, sir. 4 A. I think I forgot the exact wording 5 of the question a t this point. 6 BY MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: 7 Q . Do you have any reason to believe 8 that the inf orma tion or that this paragraph 9 in Exhibit Number 9 accurately reflects 1 0 information that was given to Mr. Graham by 11 representatives of Electronics -- Electronic 1 2 Components ? 1 3 A . This reflects the information a s 1 4 Mr. Graham understood it a s he received it 1 5 during his discussions with individuals from 1 6 Universal a t the time of the visit. I 17 believe Mr. Graham had put in the report what 1 8 he understood was relayed to him. 1 9 Q. Do you have any understanding a s 2 0 to how Electronic Components was losing six 2 1 and a half pounds per week out of vent lines? 22 A . No, I - 23 MS. S 0 B E L: Object to the form of 24 the question, David . You can rephrase it, I 25 think. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 12 5 WATER PCB-SD0000070629 1 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: Okay. 2 BY MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: 3 Q . Do you recall any discussions with 4 Universal personnel a s to whether or not the 5 Bridgeport plant was losing Aroclor to the 6 environment through vent lines? 7 A . Yes. 8 Q. What do you recall about those 9 discussions? 1 0 A. I do recall their awareness of 1 1 vapors, of PCBs being released through the 1 2 vent lines, and I do recall their study of 1 3 the system and their desire to reduce them. 1 4 That's all I recall. 1 5 Q. Do you recall when that awareness 1 6 was conveyed to you? 17 A. I'm trying to think of the date. 1 8 I believe it happened, my discussions with 19 Mr. Clark as we got ready to assemble for an 2 0 ANSI -- the first ANSI C-10 7 meeting was 21 about September, and I think it was '71, that 2 2 period of time. 2 3 Q. Do you recall whether the loss of 2 4 Aroclors to the environment at the Bridgeport 2 5 plant was discussed during your visit to the GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 12 6 WATER PCB-SD0000070630 1 plant? 2 A. Yes, but it was one of -- we were 3 aware of thos e losses. We don't know how 4 much, and we got to check into it. This is 5 what I suggested, "Well, do you have the 6 necessary equipment or do you have a 7 laboratory you can go to?" And this resulted 8 in my sending them methodology. So that was, 9 they were aware of it, but they didn't know 1 0 the magnitude of it. This was the first 11 example of any numbers that I saw, and it's 1 2 only later, about a year later that Mr. Clark 1 3 led me to believe that subject was still 1 4 being addressed, that they thought they were 1 5 on top of it and had made considerable 16 improvements, and I was not told any specific 17 numbe r s . 1 8 Q. Okay. Do you recall whether there 1 9 was any discussion during your visit to the 20 Bridgeport plant of lossof Aroclors to the 21 environment through the vent lines in 2 2 particular? 2 3 A. Yes. Yes. 2 4 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER : Okay . We've 2 5 run a little bit past one o'clock. Why don't GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 127 WATER PCB-SD0000070631 1 we take a lunch break here. 2 MS. SOBEL: Are we done with this 3 exhibit, or do you still have more on that? 4 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: We will have 5 a few more questions on it. I think it makes 6 sense, of light of what's going on, to break 7 here. There'11 be a different subject. 8 (Luncheon recess from 1:10 to 9 2:25 p.m.) 1 0 MR. HUELSMAN: We're back on the 11 air since lunchtime. 1 2 BY MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: 1 3 Q Mr . Papageorge, before we broke 1 4 for lunch, w e were talking about Exhibit 1 5 Number 9. We had spoken a little bit about 1 6 this third paragraph, begins with the 17 reference to lab studies. The reference at 1 8 the end of that sentence to vent lines, based 1 9 upon your visit to the Bridgeport plant and 2 0 your discussions with Bridgeport personnel, 21 do you have an understanding as to what the 22 vent lines are? 2 3 A. I think I do, yes. 2 4 Q. What are the vent lines? 2 5 A. These are pipes that come up from GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 12 8 WATER PCB-SD0000070632 1 equipment within the plant, such as the 2 chambers in which the capacitors are 3 impregnated with the dielectric fluid which 4 contains PCB. Storage tanks also have vent 5 lines through which these tanks are allowed 6 to , to breathe, literally, where the liquid 7 forces out any gas that's in the tank, and 8 when the liquid is emptied from the tank, the 9 vent provides a means for the air to enter 1 0 the tank. 11 Q . Do you recall where within the 1 2 Bridgeport plant these vent lines were 1 3 located? 1 4 A . I do not. 1 5 Q . I ' d like to direct your attention 1 6 to the final paragraph in Exhibit Number 9. 17 Do you see the reference to the St. Louis 1 8 visit? 1 9 A . I do. 2 0 Q . Do you recall what that refers to? 2 1 A . I don't recall the specifics, but 2 2 was a visit made by El e c t r o n i c 2 3 Components personnel to St. Louis in mid 1970 2 4 or about that period of time. 2 5 Q . Do you recall which personnel from GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 12 9 WATER PCB-SD0000070633 1 Electronic Components came? 2 A. I do not, no. 3 Q. Were you involved in any aspect of 4 that visit? 5 A. Only to meet them, say hello, and 6 that's the extent of it. 7 Q. Do you know whether there were any 8 discussions during that visit regarding the 9 escape of Aroclors into the environment at 1 0 Universal's Bridgeport plant? 11 A . I do not. 1 2 MR . SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: Let's set 1 3 Exhibit Number 9 aside. 1 4 (Papageorge Deposition 1 5 Exhibit 10 marked for 16 identification.) 17 BY MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: 1 8 Q. Mr. Papageorge, I've had marked as 1 9 Exhibit Number 10 for identification a 2 0 five-page document bearing the production 21 numbe r s FRL 0 0 3 2 12 , consecutive through FRL 2 2 0 0 3 2 17 . 1 1 appears to be a memorandum dated 2 3 September 17, 1970, concerning a customer 24 visit a s indicated on the first page. I 'd 25 like to ask you to review that exhibit and GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 13 0 WATER PCB-SD0000070634 1 take whatever time you need to get familiar 2 with it. 3 (Witness peruses said 4 document.) 5 A. I have reviewed the exhibit. 6 Q. Sir, I'd like to direct your 7 attention to the first page. Do you see the 8 list of names related to the heading "Persons 9 Contacted"? 1 0 A. Ido. 11 Q. And are you the W. Papageorge who 1 2 is the last person in the right-hand column 1 3 among those names? 1 4 A. I am. 1 5 Q. Does "GO" refer to Monsanto's 16 general offices? 1 7 A. It does. 1 8 Q. That's where you were located at 1 9 this time? 2 0 A. Yes. 2 1 Q. Have you seen this document 2 2 before? 23 A. A t the time, yes. I haven't seen 24 it since . 2 5 Q. Time being -- GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 13 1 WATER PCB-SD0000070635 1 A . The time it was dated. 2 Q. And that's September 17th of 1970? 3 A. Correct . 4 Q. Okay. Can you tell me what this 5 document is? 6 A. This is a report by Mr. Bryant of 7 Mons an to describing a visit by Mr. , Messrs . 8 R a y n o and Gianotti from Electronic Components 9 to the St. Louis area to visit Monsanto 1 0 offices and facilities on September 8th and 1 1 9th of 19 7 0 . 1 2 Q. I'd like to direct your attention 1 3 to the second page of the exhibit. Do you 1 4 see the second paragraph, in the second 1 5 paragraph, reference to Japanese Kannechlor? 1 6 A. Ido. 17 Q. What is Kannechlor? 18 A. Kannechlor is -- 19 MS. SOBEL:Question asked and 2 0 answered. 2 1 BY MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: 2 2 Q. Can you tell us what it is, 2 3 please? 2 4 A. Kannechloris a trade name of the 2 5 Kannegafuchi Company in Japan for their PCB GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 13 2 WATER PCB-SD0000070636 1 product line 2 Q . I ' d like to direct your attention 3 to the third page of the exhibit, the first 4 full sentence o n that page reads, "Also Rayno 5 requested copies of the February 9 and 18 6 letters by D . A . Olson relating to 7 pollution. fl Do you see that reference? 8 A . I d o see it. 9 Q. Do you have some understanding as 1 0 to what that refers to? 11 A . Yes . 1 2 Q. What's it referencing? 1 3 A. Those are the letters that we 1 4 looked, at least, at one of them earlier in 1 5 which the customers of Monsanto's PCB 1 6 products were given a status report on the 1 7 PCB environmental issue. 1 8 Q. If you could turn back to the 1 9 second page of the exhibit, the -- and I'd 2 0 like to direct your attention in particular 2 1 to what appears to be the third paragraph on 2 2 this page, it begins, "They did decide a more 2 3 pressing pollution problem for them was the 2 4 vacuum diffusion pump which uses A r o c1o r 1254 2 5 a s a seal." You see the reference in the GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 13 3 WATER PCB-SD000007063 1 next sentence to a cold trap on the vent 2 line? 3 A. I do. 4 Q. What is a cold trap? 5 A. It's a device that ' s typically- 6 installed on vent lines that contain vapors 7 that, when cooled, would condense into a 8 liquid form, so what this really amounts to 9 is, it's a, it's a widespace in the line 1 0 that has a cooling medium flowing through it 11 to cool the gases so they condense in a film 12 and dribble on back down as a liquid. It can 1 3 be cold water, refrigerated water, or it can 1 4 be even a freonlike they use in your 1 5 automobile air conditioning system. It 1 6 depends on kind of gas they expect in that 1 7 vent line and what it takes to cool it down 1 8 so it becomes a liquid to prevent it from 1 9 escaping as a gas out the top of the vent. 2 0 Q. Did you have any discussions 2 1 concerning cold traps for the vent lines 2 2 during your visit to the Bridgeport plant? 2 3 A . No . 2 4 Q. During your visit to the 2 5 Bridgeport plant, did you have any GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 13 4 WATER PCB-SD0000070638 1 discussions with Universal personnel 2 concerning contamination of Ar o c1o r 12 5 4 with 3 Aroclor 1 2 4 2 a t the Bridgeport plant? 4 A . No . 5 ( Pause for telephone call. ) 6 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: Off the 7 record . You want to take a short break? 8 MS . MATRE : If I could, for two 9 minutes. 1 0 (Short break. ) 11 MR. HUELSMAN: We're back on. 1 2 BY MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: 1 3 Q. Mr. Papageorge, just so that I'm 1 4 clear, the reference on page 3 of this 1 5 exhibit to the February 9th letter by 1 6 D . A. Olson relating to pollution, does that 1 7 refer to what we've had marked a s Exhibit 3 18 today ? . 1 9 A . The February 9th reference is 2 0 Exhibit 3. 2 1 Q . Okay. Do you have some 2 2 understanding of what the February 18th 2 3 letter said? 2 4 A. Yes, sir, that ' s the one that ' s 2 5 addressed to the electrical equipment GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 13 5 WATER PCB-SD0000070639 1 manufacturers. 2 Q. I'd like to direct your attention 3 to the final page of the exhibit . 11 is a 4 letter dated September 16, 1970, addressed to 5 Mr. Glenn Rayno, Electronic Components 6 Division, Universal Manufacturing 7 Corporation. The sender appears to be J. G. 8 p a r e n "Jim," close p a r e n, Bryant, 9 B-r-y-a-n-t. 1 0 Mr. Papageorge, do you see the 11 references in that letter to the February 9 1 2 and 18 letters by D. A. Olson on PCB 1 3 pollution? 1 4 A . I do. 1 5 Q . Do those references refer to 1 6 Exhibit 3 and the other letter which you just 17 described which was sent to the electrical 1 8 equipmen t manufacturers? 1 9 A . It does. 2 0 Q . Can you see the little mark above 2 1 Mr. Rayno s name to the right of his name ? 2 2 A . I see s ome thing there, yes, sir. 2 3 Q Do you know what that is? 2 4 A . No , I don't. 2 5 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: Okay. You GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 13 6 WATER PCB-SD0000070640 1 can set Exhibit 10 aside . 2 Let's mark this a s 11. 3 (Papageorge Deposition 4 Exhibit 11 marked for 5 identification . ) 6 BY MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: 7 Q. Mr. Papageorge, I've had marked 8 for identification a s Exhibit Number 11 a, a 9 letter and attachment bearing the production 1 0 numbers FRL 002070, consecutive through FRL 11 002077. I'd like to ask you to review that 1 2 exhibit to the extent you feel necessary to 13 answer some questions about it. My questions 1 4 will only concern the letter, the two-page 1 5 letter at the beginning of this exhibit. 16 (Witness peruses said 17 document. ) 1 8 A. I have reviewed the two pages of 1 9 the letter. 2 0 Q. I ' d like to direct your attention 21 to the signature that appears on the second 2 2 page of the exhibit a t the end of the letter. 2 3 First I'd like to ask you, what Howard 2 4 S . Bergen or Howard Bergen the director of 2 5 Monsanto's Specialty Products Group in late GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 13 7 WATER PCB-SD0000070641 1 1971? 2 A. He was. 3 Q. Did you, yourself, know Mr. 4 Bergen? 5 A. Yes. He was my supervisor. 6 Q . Did you work with him on any 7 matters relating to PCBs? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. During the time that you worked 1 0 with him, did you have any occasion to review 11 materials written by him? 1 2 A. Always, virtually all PCB letters 1 3 or memoranda. 1 4 Q. Do you recognize the signature 1 5 that appears on this page? 1 6 A . I do . 17 Q To be that of Mr. Bergen? 1 8 A . That is his. 1 9 Q . Is Mr. Bergen still employed by 2 0 Monsanto? 2 1 A. No, he's deceased. 2 2 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: I won't 2 3 subpoena him. We can set that exhibit aside. 2 4 BY MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: 2 5 Q . Mr. Papageorge, did there come a GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 13 8 WATER PCB-SD0000070642 1 time when Mons an to restricted sales of its 2 Ar o c1o r products? 3 A . Yes. 4 Q. When was that? 5 A . 11 was i n May of 1970 , when the 6 decision was made to terminate the sales of 7 PCBs to many uses, t o phase out of the PCB 8 applications in some of the uses but to 9 retain the use of PCBs in the electrical 1 0 applications. 1 1 Q. Subsequent to May of 1970, did 1 2 Monsanto adopt an approval process to 1 3 determine those customers to whom it would 1 4 continue to sell Aroclor products? 1 5 A. Yes, there was a process developed 16 in late '71. 17 Q. How did Monsanto determine whether 1 8 or not to approve the sale of Aroclor to a 1 9 cus tomer? 2 0 A. Oh, primarily it had to be in a 21 closed system electrical use by a company 2 2 that was willing to agree to conditions that 2 3 Monsanto was asking at the time regarding 24 responsibility for the safe handling and 2 5 control of the product to prevent entry into GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 13 9 WATER PCB-SD0000070643 1 the environment. 2 Q. When you refer to a closed system 3 in electrical use, what are you referring to? 4 A. I'm referring to the situation 5 where the liquid is in a, let's say a steel 6 container, which is what a capacitor would be 7 typical of, or a transformer, which is really 8 a large steel tank which contains the 9 necessary wiring, all of it immersed in a 1 0 bath of liquid which contains PCBs. 11 Q. Were any Aroclor customers exempt 1 2 from having to provide this agreement as to 1 3 the conditions that Monsanto was asking you 1 4 referred to? 1 5 A. After 1971? 1 6 Q . Yes, sir. 17 A . No . 1 8 Q. How did you first learn that 1 9 Monsanto was requiring that its Aroclor 2 0 customers agree to these conditions? 21 A. I, I personally was inf ormed by a 2 2 member of Mons anto' s Legal Department. 2 3 Q. Aside from this person in 24 Monsanto's Legal Department, did you discuss 2 5 this agreement with anyone else a t Monsanto? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 14 0 WATER PCB-SD0000070644 1 Well, certainly, after I was aware 2 of the, the plan, I reviewed this with my 3 supervisor, Mr. Bergen, and reviewed it with 4 the marketing director , who a t that time was 5 Mr., I believe it was Mr. G o s s a g ea t that 6 time, yes, and of course, all the other 7 marketing people, I tried to get a n 8 understanding of what they knew, and how they 9 were going to implement it, and how they were 1 0 personally involved . 11 Q. I take it from your last answer 1 2 that you had these discussions prior to 1 3 Monsanto's implementation of this 1 4 requirement, for want of a better word, that 1 5 its Aroclor customers provide this agreement? 1 6 A. Some of the discussions were taken 1 7 right after I was told by the attorney in 1 8 December of '71. The activity relating to 1 9 getting these agreements negotiated and 2 0 signed occurred during December, January, 2 1 February. This is now into 1971, so my 2 2 discussions with some of the people took 2 3 place during all this communication and 2 4 negotiating phase , and some of them took 2 5 place after the signatures had been attained. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 14 1 WATER PCB-SD0000070645 1 Q Do you recall what Mr . Gossage ' s 2 first name was? 3 A . Thomas. 4 Q Is Mr . Gossage still employed by 5 Monsanto? 6 A . No, he is not. 7 Q Do you know where he is today? 8 A . I understand he's the top man at 9 Hercules Chemical Company. 1 0 Q - And where is that? 11 A . Delaware. Wilmington, Delaware. 1 2 Q . Do you recall an individual 1 3 employed at Monsanto named C. P. Cunningham? 1 4 A . Yes, I do. 1 5 Q What was Mr. Cunningham's first 1 6 name? 17 A . I don't know. 1 8 Q You don't recall? 1 9 A . His middle name was Preston. 2 0 Everyone called him "Press." I personally 2 1 never knew his first name. 2 2 Q. What position did Mr. Cunningham 2 3 hold with Monsanto? 2 4 A . A t what time? 2 5 Q Was he employed by Monsanto in GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 14 2 WATER PCB-SD0000070646 1 19 7 1? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. A t the beginningof 197 2? 4 A. Yes . 5 Q. Do you recallwhat his position 6 was a t Monsanto a t the beginning of 1 97 2? 7 A. '72, Mr. Cunningham was assigned 8 to Monsanto activities in Europe. I believe 9 he was the principal Monsanto individual in 1 0 Mons an to Europe a t that time. 11 Q. Do you recall whether Mr. 1 2 Cunningham had any involvement in these 1 3 agreements we've just been talking about? 1 4 A. I have my dates wrong. Mr . 1 5 Cunningham signed some of the agreements in 16 '71. Therefore, he must have returned from 1 7 Europe in '71. Okay, I had my dates wrong. 1 8 He was involved , and he was, when he signed 1 9 them, he was the vice-president of the 2 0 operating unit in Mons an to responsible for 2 1 PCBs . 2 2 Q. Is Mr. Cunningham still employed 2 3 by Monsanto? 24 A. He's retired . 2 5 Q. Do you know where he is now? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MISSOURI 14 3 WATER PCB-SD0000070647 1 A . I do not. 2 Q. Did you ever work, your self, with 3 Mr. Cunningham? 4 A. Certainly. 5 Q. Did you review any documents that 6 he had written or signed? 7 A. A t what point in time? 8 Q. 1971 . 9 A. '71: Not a t that time, no. 1 0 Q. Prior to that? 1 1 A . No . 1 2 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER : Let me do 1 3 this. Let's mark that a s -- what are we up 1 4 to; 12? 1 5 MR . HUEL SMAN: I've got about two 16 minutes You want me to stop and change now? 17 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: Let's stop 1 8 and change 1 9 MR. HUEL SMAN: This is the end of 2 0 tape numbe r 2. 2 1 (Papageorge Deposition 2 2 Exhibit 12 marked for 2 3 identification . ) 2 4 MR. HUELSMAN: We are starting 2 5 tape number 3. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 14 4 WATER PCB-SD0000070648 1 BY MR- SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: 2 Q . Mr. Papageorge, I've asked the 3 court reporter to mark for identification 4 purposes a s Exhibit 12, a one-page documents 5 bearing production number FRL 0 0 3 1 1 3 . A t the 6 top, it states , "Monsanto Special Under taking 7 by Purchasers of Polychlorinated Biphenyls . " 8 I'd like to ask you to review this document , 9 andif you can let me know when you've 1 0 finished with your review of it, I'd like to 11 ask you some questions about it. 1 2 A. I have finished reviewing it. 1 3 (Witness peruses said 1 4 document.) 1 5 Q. Mr. Papageorge, have you seen this 1 6 document before? 17 I have. 1 8 Q Can you identify it? 1 9 A It's a copy of the agreement 2 0 between Monsanto and Universal Manufacturing 21 Corporation regarding the sale of PCBs by 2 2 Mons anto to Universal Manufacturing, and the 2 3 conditions under which those sales would be 2 4 made, and the responsibility regarding their 2 5 sale, delivery, use, and so on. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 14 5 WATER PCB-SD0000070649 1 Q. -D-o -yo- u- -r--e----c---a----l-l- w---h---e--n- th-e fi-rst time 2 was that you saw this, this undertaking? 3 A. This particular undertaking? 4 Q. Yes, sir. 5 A. For sure, I saw it yesterday, but 6 it seems to me I saw it before that, but I 7 can't recall the date. 8 Q. Do you recall the year? 9 A. Yes, I saw many documents of this 1 0 nature about mid 1972. 11 Q . Is this an example of the 1 2 agreement that Monsanto was asking of its 1 3 Aroclor customers that you had discussed 1 4 earlier? 1 5 A . Yes, s tar ting in 1 97 2. 1 6 Q. Do you recognize that to be Mr. 17 Cunningham's signature below the line reading 1 8 "Monsanto Company"? 1 9 A . That is his signature, yes. 2 0 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: You can set 21 this exhibit aside. 2 2 ( Papageorge Deposition 2 3 Exhibit 13 marked for 2 4 identification.) 2 5 BY MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 14 6 WATER PCB-SD0000070650 1 Q. Mr. Papageorge, I've asked the 2 court reporter to mark for identification 3 purposes a s Exhibit Number 13 a one-page 4 document bearing the production numbe r s FRL 5 0 0 3 2 5 9 . 11 bears Universal Manufacturing 6 Corporation letterhead. It's dated January 7 7th, 1 97 2. It's addressed to Mr . H. , I 8 believe, S . Bergen , Monsanto Company. I ' d 9 like to ask you to take a n opportunity to 1 0 review that. If you can let me know when you 11 are finished with your review, I'm going to 1 2 ask you just a very few questions about it. 1 3 (Witness peruses said 1 4 document.) 15 A . I have reviewed it. 1 6 Q . I ' d like to direct your 1 7 attention -- first of all, have you ever seen 1 8 this document before? 1 9 A . I saw i t yesterday. 2 0 Q . Prior t o that? 2 1 A . No . 2 2 Q Okay. I direct your attention to 2 3 the first sentence of the letter , which 2 4 reads, "Enclosed is the undertaking you 2 5 requested in connection with our purchase of GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 14 7 WATER PCB-SD0000070651 1 PCS." Is the reference to the undertaking in 2 this Exhibit 13 the undertaking with 3 Universal Manufacturing Corporation that 4 we've had marked a s Exhibit 12? 5 A . Yes. 6 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: You can set 7 this exhibit aside. 8 (Papageorge Deposition 9 Exhibit 14 marked for 1 0 identification . ) 11 BY MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: 1 2 Q. Mr. Papageorge, I'veasked the 1 3 court reporter to mark for identification 1 4 purpo s e s a s Exhibit Number 14 a one-page 1 5 document bearing production numbers FRL -- 1 6 production number FRL 0 0 2 4 0 1 . I'd like you 17 to take your time in reviewing this 1 8 particular exhibit and let me know when 1 9 you ' v e finished , and I'll ask you -- 2 0 A. I have reviewed it. 2 1 Q . Okay. Have you seen this document 2 2 before? 2 3 A. I saw it yesterday. 24 Q. Have you seen it prior to that? 2 5 A . No . GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 14 8 WATER PCB-SD0000070652 1 Q. Do you have some understanding a s 2 to what is meant by the first sentence in 3 this exhibit, which reads, "Subject company 4 is now fully approved"? 5 A . I think I do. 6 0 . Okay, what is your understanding? 7 A . That the subject company, 8 Universal Manufacturing Corporation , has met 9 the requirements set for the continued sales 1 0 of PCBs, and Mr. Bergen, the director of the 11 group, is addressing his marketing director 1 2 to release shipments. 1 3 Q Was Monsanto's approval of 1 4 Universal Manufacturing Corporation as 1 5 indicated in this exhibit contingent upon 1 6 Monsanto receiving a signed undertaking that 17 we've had marked a s Exhibit Number 12? 1 8 A . Definitely, yes. 1 9 Q Do you recall whether Monsanto 2 0 continued to sell Aroclor products to 2 1 Universal after January 7 th of 19 7 2 ? 22 A . Yes, they did. 2 3 Q Okay, you can set that exhibit 2 4 aside . 2 5 (Papageorge Deposition GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 149 WATER PCB-SD0000070653 1 Exhibit 15 marked for 2 3 BY MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: 4 Q . Mr . Papageorge, I'm handing you 5 what I've had marked by the court reporter 6 for identification purposes as Papageorge 7 Exhibit 15. It consists of documents bearing 8 the production numbers FRL 001877 consecutive 9 through FRL 001916. I'd like to ask you to 1 0 take some time to review this exhibit. If 11 you can indicate to me when you are finished 1 2 with your review, I will ask you some 1 3 questions about it. 1 4 (Witness peruses said 1 5 document.) 1 6 A. I have reviewed the exhibit. 17 Q. Okay, I'd like to direct your 1 8 attention to the first page of the exhibit, 1 9 and it appears to be a letter on Monsanto 2 0 letterhead, signed by Howard S. Bergen. Do 2 1 you recognize that to be Mr.Bergen's 2 2 signature? 2 3 A . I believe it is, yes, mm-hmm. 2 4 Q. Have you seen the letter that's 2 5 on -- that that consists of, the first page GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 15 0 WATER PCB-SD0000070654 1 of this exhibit, before? 2 A. I have seen it before, yes, sir. 3 Q. Can you tell me what it is? 4 A. It's a letter intended to be sent 5 to customers still receiving PCB products , 6 and it's -- Mr. Bergen takes the oppor tunity 7 to again precaution them about entry into the 8 environment through various means and also to 9 remind them to avoid using the PCB product in 1 0 or near any food processes, food handling 11 equipment. 1 2 Q. You are referring to the second 1 3 and third paragraphs of the letter? 1 4 A . Yes. 1 5 Q. Could you turn to the second page 1 6 of the exhibit? 17 A. I have it. 1 8 Q. This appears to be a memorandum on 1 9 Monsanto stationery from Mr. Bergen to an 2 0 individual identified as R. C. E. Sprague, 21 dated September 10, 1971: Subject is 22 indicated a s PCBs. There are four 2 3 individuals also listed as having received 2 4 copies . 2 5 Can you tell me who R. C. E. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 15 1 WATER PCB-SD0000070655 1 Sprague was? 2 A. Mr. Sprague a t that time was in 3 charge of the department in Mons anto that was 4 in charge of customer service . By that, I 5 mean that's the group that a cknowledges 6 receipt of the order, makes sure that the 7 order is clearly understood, that the order 8 is placed with the proper plant, that the 9 order is shipped on time and under the right 1 0 conditions, and that the proper 1 1 communications take place between the 1 2 customer who made the order, the plant that 1 3 made the delivery, and so on. 1 4 Q. Is Mr. Sprague still employed by 1 5 Monsanto? 1 6 A . No . 1 7 Q. Do you know where he is now? 1 8 A . The last I heard. which is about 1 9 five years ago , h e was in the S t . Louis area 2 0 Q I ' d like to direct your attention 21 to that list of four recipients in the upper 2 2 right-hand corner of this page of the 2 3 exhibit. 2 4 A. All right. 2 5 Q. Do you know who W. R. Corey was? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 15 2 WATER PCB-SD0000070656 1 A . Yes, in 1971, Mr. Corey was the. 2 as I recall, he had the title of Director of 3 Administration for Monsanto Industrial 4 Chemicals company , an opera ting unit of 5 Mons anto. 6 Q. Do you recall Mr . Corey' s first 7 name? 8 A. Wendel, W-e-n-d-e-1. 9 Q. You see the reference at the end 1 0 of that list to a J. Mason? 11 A . Ido. 1 2 Q. Do you know who J. Mason was at 1 3 that time? 1 4 A. John Mason was the -- he had the 1 5 title of the director of some of the business 1 6 groups. I don't recall his official title. 17 He was Mr. Bergen's supervisor. 1 8 Q. Is Mr. Mason still employed by 1 9 Monsanto? 2 0 A . No . 2 1 Q. Do you know where he is now? 2 2 A . I believe he lives in England. 2 3 Q. Do you recallMonsanto 2 4 implementing a requirement that all orders 2 5 for Monsanto's PCB products be acknowledged GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 15 3 WATER PCB-SD0000070657 1 in writing? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q . When was that requirement 4 implemented? 5 A. A t about the time of this letter. 6 It became a practice for all orders. 7 Q. I'd like to direct your attention 8 to the paragraph numbered 2, appears about 9 two-thirds of the way down the page. It 10 reads, "A copy of the enclosed letter should 11 be attached to all the written 1 2 acknowledgements correctly addressed to the 1 3 individual customer." 1 4 Would you take a look at the third 1 5 page of the exhibit, which bears the 1 6 production number FRL 001879. Do you know 17 whether that's the enclosed letter that's 1 8 referred to in the numbered paragraph 2 on 1 9 the December 10th, 1971, Monsanto memorandum? 2 0 A. Are you referring to the last 21 column on that? 2 2 Q . No, sir, I 'm referring to the next 2 3 page in the exhibit. 2 4 A . Oh, yes, I skipped a page. That 2 5 is the letter that is referred to, yes. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 154 WATER PCB-SD0000070658 1 Q . And turning back to the first page 2 of the exhibit, do you know whether this 3 letter , signed by Mr. Bergen , was sent to all 4 of Monsanto' s PCB customers a s of the end of 5 1971? 6 A. As they placed orders, yes. This 7 is a copy of the letter we just spoke of. 8 The second page of this contains his 9 signature. 1 0 Q. Is it your understanding that the 1 1 signed letter that comprises the first page 1 2 of this exhibit was attached to all written 1 3 acknowledgements addressed to Monsanto's PCB 1 4 customers after December of 1971? 1 5 A. That is correct. 1 6 Q. I direct your attention to the 17 numbered paragraph 3 appearing on the 1 8 December 10, 1971, Bergen memorandum. It 1 9 reads, "A list recording all customers 2 0 receiving this letter should be made and held 2 1 in the files." 2 2 Could you take a look at the 2 3 documents and the pages of this exhibit 2 4 bearing the production numbe r s FRL 0 01 8 8 0 2 5 through 001916 and tell me whether that is GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST . LOUIS, MISSOURI 15 5 WATER PCB-SD0000070659 1 the list that's referred to in Paragraph 3 of 2 the Bergen memorandum? 3 A. This is -- these are certainly 4 copies of such a list. I don't know if it's 5 the co m p1e t e list. This looks like it covers 6 1972; as best I can tell, starting January in 7 the back, buildingup to December, the front. 8 HR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: Okay, you 9 can set that exhibit aside. 1 0 (Papageorge Deposition 1 1 Exhibit 16 marked for 1 2 identification. ) 1 3 BY MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: 1 4 Q. Mr. Papageorge, I have had marked 1 5 for identification purposes as Exhibit Number 1 6 16 a one-page document bearing production 17 number FRL 000840. I'd like to hand that to 1 8 you and give you an opportunity to review 1 9 that exhibit. If you can let me know when 2 0 you are finished with it. 2 1 (Witness peruses said 2 2 document . ) 2 3 A . I have reviewed it. 2 4 Q. Have you seen this kind of 2 5 document before? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 15 6 WATER PCB-SD0000070660 1 A . Oh, yes. 2 Q . What is it? 3 A . This is a copyof a label which is 4 glued onto a drum of a PCB which is 5 electrical grade A r o c1o r 1 2 4 2. 6 Q. Did Monsanto prepare labels such 7 a s this for all of its Ar o c1o r products, with 8 the exception of the particular number 9 appearing after the Aroclor trade name? 1 0 A . Yes. 1 1 MS . SOBEL : David , I 1 m going t o 1 2 object and ask you - - I know w e want to get 1 3 right to the heart of the matter, but you've 1 4 got to ask questions in not a leading way. 1 5 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: You are 1 6 objecting to the form of the question? 17 MS . S OB EL : Yes, I am. 1 8 BY MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: 1 9 Q . Did Monsanto prepare labels such 2 0 as this for its Aroclor 1016 products? 2 1 A. Yes . 22 Q. Were theselabels prepared in the 2 3 regular course of Monsanto's business? 2 4 A. Yes. 2 5 Q . What was Mons an to 1s purpose in GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 157 WATER PCB-SD0000070661 1 preparing these labels? 2 A. To communicate to anyone who might 3 be involved with the product those conditions 4 which Mons anto felt ought to be followed 5 regarding employee exposure, environmental 6 contamination, and of course, the, the name 7 of the product , and the weight of the 8 material in the container, and the additional 9 piece of information regarding disposal. 1 0 Q. Okay, you've mentioned the weight 1 1 of the container. Can you tell me from this 1 2 exhibit what kind of container this type of 1 3 label would have been attached to? 1 4 A. I can. 1 5 Q . What kind of container? 1 6 A. This is a 55-gallon steel drum. 17 Q And how can you tell that? 1 8 A . The 6 0 0 pounds tells me that 1 9 - and knowing that the PCB produc t is 2 0 heavier than water and is roughly 2 1 10.-something pounds per gallon, so 5 5 times 2 2 my 10-something is close to 600 pounds. 2 3 Q . I'd like to direct your attention 2 4 to the center column of text in the section 2 5 of this exhibit that begins "Caution, GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 15 8 WATER PCB-SD0000070662 1 contains chlorinated hydrocarbons. The 2 center column begins, I believe, "if clothing 3 becomes soaked with fluid, launder before 4 wearing again," and below that, the text 5 reads, "This produc t contains polychlorinated 6 biphenyls, which some s tudie s have shown may 7 be persistent, a n environmental contaminant, 8 and possibly injurious to certain f orms of 9 bird, aquatic and animal life extreme care 1 0 should be taken to prevent any injury into 11 the environment through spills, leakage, use, 1 2 disposal, vaporization and otherwise." When 1 3 did Monsanto begin to include that particular 1 4 paragraph on labels of products sent to its 1 5 Aroclor customers? 1 6 A . Okay, the par agr aph that begins 17 with, "This produc t contains"? 1 8 Q. That's correct. 1 9 A. Was introduced on the packages in 2 0 May of 1970. 2 1 Q. I'd like to direct your attention 2 2 to the text in the same portion of this 2 3 exhibit to the right, the column that bears 2 4 the heading "WASTE DISPOSAL," "Used 2 5 polychlorinated biphenyl fluids may be GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 15 9 WATER PCB-SD0000070663 1 returned for proper incineration a t three 2 cents per pound." When did Monsanto begin to 3 include this language in labelsaffixed to 4 containers for its Ar o c1 or products? 5 A. About the latter part of 1971, a s 6 best I can recall . 7 Q . Did Monsanto provide its PCB 8 customers with labels forcontainers of used 9 PCB fluids that the cus tomer returned to 1 0 Monsanto for disposal? 1 1 A . They did. 1 2 Q. Did Monsanto includeinstructions 1 3 against permitting the entry of PCBs into the 1 4 environment on thoselabels? 1 5 A. I just can't recall. 1 6 Q Okay , le t ' s set Exhibit Number 17 A . I ' d have to see one refresh my 1 8 memory. I can' t re call that one. I do 1 9 recall they were red with white lettering to 2 0 highlight them. 2 1 ( Papageorge Deposition 2 2 Exhibit 17 marked for 2 3 identification.) 2 4 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: Mr. 2 5 Papageorge, I've had the court reporter mark GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 16 0 WATER PCB-SD0000070664 1 for identification as Exhibit 17 a five-page 2 document bearing production number s FRL 3 000862 through 000866. I'm sure I'm not the 4 only one to pick up on this; it appears that 5 the last digit of the production numbers on 6 the s e cond and last pages of the exhibit 7 appear to have not been reproduced.I will 8 represent that they bear those production 9 numb e r s. I'd like to ask you to review this 1 0 exhibit and let me know when you've finished 11 reviewing it. 1 2 (Witness peruses said 1 3 document.) 1 4 A . I have reviewed the exhibit 15 Q . Have you seen thi s type of 1 6 document before? 17 A . Yes, I have. 1 8 Q Can you identify i t for us? 1 9 A . These are copies o f labels 2 0 provided by Monsanto to its customers 21 return of liquid PCB products that were 2 2 contaminated or damaged beyond recovery or 2 3 for recycle and must be destroyed. 24 Q. Were these types of labels 2 5 prepared in the ordinary course of Monsanto ' s GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 16 1 WATER PCB-SD0000070665 1 business? 2 A . Yes. 3 Q . I'd like to directyour attention 4 to the left side of the document, below the 5 1anguage that reads, "Return for reclamation 6 or disposal only." Do you see the text that 7 says, "This produc t contains polychlorinated 8 biphenyls which some studies have s hown may 9 be a n environmental contaminant. Extreme 1 0 care should be taken to prevent any entry 11 into the environment through spills, leakage, 1 2 use, disposal, vaporization or otherwise"? 1 3 A. I do see that. 1 4 Q . Does that refresh your 1 5 recollection a s to whether Monsanto included 1 6 instructions against permitting the entry of 17 PCBs into the environment on labels for 1 8 containers for used PCB products? 1 9 A. Yes, it does. 2 0 Q. Do you recall when Monsanto began 2 1 to include this particular instruction on the 2 2 labels it provided to its PCB customers? 2 3 A. Do I recall when the paragraph was 24 included? 2 5 Q . Yes, sir. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 16 2 WATER PCB-SD0000070666 1 A . Oh, from the very beginning, and 2 these labels were provided in 1971. 3 Q . Can you tell me what kind of 4 container could bear this kind of return 5 label ? 6 A. It wouldbe a steel drum which 7 could withstand a t least a one-way trip full 8 of he avy PCB-type liquids. 9 Q. Would that be a 55-gallon drum? 1 0 A. That was the typical size, but 11 that didn't mean that if a customer had 1 2 32-gallon drums, he couldn't use them. 1 3 Q. Okay, who provided the containers 1 4 for return PCB products? 1 5 A. The customer had to obtain his own 1 6 containers. 17 Q. Do you know whether Monsanto sent 1 8 return labels of the sort that we've had 1 9 marked as Exhibit Number 17 to Universal 2 0 Manufacturing Corporation? 2 1 A. Yes. 2 2 Q . And how do you know that? 2 3 A . 11 was part of a program that was 2 4 instituted when these labels were printed, 2 5 all customers on record still receiving PCBs GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MIS SOUR I 16 3 WATER PCB-SD0000070667 1 automatically got bundles of these labels , 2 and Universal was on that list. 3 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: You can set 4 that exhibit aside. 5 (Papageorge Deposition 6 Exhibit 18 marked for 7 identification.) 8 BY MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: 9 Q. Mr. Papageorge, I've had marked 1 0 for identification purposes a two-page 11 document -- as Exhibit Number 18 a two-page 1 2 document bearing production numbers FRL 1 3 003380 and 003381. I'd like to give you the 1 4 opportunity to review that document or that 1 5 exhibit, rather. 1 6 For the record, the exhibit 1 7 consists of two letters, both dated September 1 8 28, 1970. The first is addressed to Mr. 1 9 N. Ray Clark, Executive Vice-President, 2 0 Electronic Components Div., Universal 2 1 Manufacturing Company. The second one is 2 2 addressed to Mr. Armand D e M a u r o, Plant 2 3 Manager, Electronic Components Div., 2 4 Universal Manufacturing Corp. 2 5 (Witness peruses said GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 16 4 WATER PCB-SD0000070668 1 document.) 2 A. I have reviewed the exhibit. 3 Q. Have you seen either page of this 4 exhibit before? 5 A . Yes, I have. 6 Q. Setting aside whatever you may 7 have looked a t yesterday, have you seen this, 8 either page o f this exhibit? 9 A . Oh , yes, I saw this about the time 1 0 of the date o f the letter. 1 1 Q. Do you know whe ther these letters 1 2 were, in fact, sent to Mr. Clark and to Mr. 1 3 De Mauro? 1 4 A. I do . 1 5 Q. How do you know that? 1 6 A . Mr . Graham called m e and read 1 7 these 1e 11 e r s over the phone t o me for my 1 8 comments , and at the time he sent these, he 1 9 sent me carbon copies of these. 2 0 Q. Do you recall whether Universal 2 1 returned any waste PCB products to Monsanto ' s 2 2 Sauget, Illinois, facility for incineration? 2 3 A . I do not. 2 4 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: Okay, you 2 5 can set that exhibit aside. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST . LOUIS , MIS S OUR I 16 5 WATER PCB-SD0000070669 1 ( Papageorge Exhibit 19 marked 2 for identification.) 3 BY MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: 4 Q . Mr. Papageorge, I've had the court 5 reporter mark for identification purposes as 6 Exhibit Number 19 a two-page exhibit bearing, 7 or two pages of documents bearing the 8 production numbers FRL 001531 and 001532. 9 I'm going to hand that to you and ask you to 1 0 review it. If you can indicate to m e when 1 1 you are finished with your review, I will ask 1 2 you a few questions about this exhibit. 1 3 For the record, the first page of 1 4 the exhibit appears to be a letter dated on 1 5 Monsanto letterhead dated December 15, 1975, 1 6 to Universal Manufacturing, attention, Mr. 17 Armand De Mauro, Plant Manager. The second 1 8 page appears to be a handwritten notation. 1 9 (Witness peruses said 2 0 document.) 2 1 A. I have reviewed the exhibit. 2 2 Q. Okay. Having reviewed this 2 3 exhibit, does it refresh your recollection as 2 4 to whether Universal returned any used PCB 2 5 product to Monsanto for incineration? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST . LOUIS , MIS S OUR I 16 6 WATER PCB-SD0000070670 1 A . No, it doesn't. 2 Q . Okay, let me direct your attention 3 to the third paragraph of the letter. 4 Actually, it starts with the s e cond 5 paragraph. It begins, "Enclosed are ten 6 preaddressed drum return labels marked 7 "Disposal only." Are those the kinds of 8 labels that we've had marked a s Exhibit 17? 9 A . At least one of those fits this 1 0 o f time. 11 0 . Can you indicate which one? 1 2 A . The one that refers to Depar tment 1 3 831, instead of the other numbers shown 1 4 there . 1 5 Q. And that would be, in Exhibit 1 6 Number 17, the document bearing the 17 production number FRL 864,the document 1 8 bearing production number 865, and the 1 9 document bearing production number 866? 2 0 A . Yes. 2 1 Q . Now directingyour attention to 2 2 the third paragraph, it begins, "To avoid 2 3 leakage, use drums which meet DOT 17 E 2 4 specifications . " 11 continues on from there . 2 5 Do you see that? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 16 7 WATER PCB-SD0000070671 1 A . I do . 2 Q. Does that accurately state the 3 container requirements for returns of P C B 4 produc ts to Mons an to from it cus tomers ? 5 A. Yes, this describes the minimum 6 standard that must be met. If they had 7 access to drums that were even heavier gauge 8 and all, that ' sokay, a s long a s this miminum 9 was met. 1 0 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER : Okay, let's 1 1 set Exhibit Number 19 aside. 1 2 (Papageorge Deposition 1 3 Exhibit 20 marked for 1 4 identification . ) 1 5 BY MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: 1 6 Q. Mr. Papageorge, I've had the court 17 reporter mark for identification purposes a s 1 8 Exhibit Number 20 a single-page document 1 9 bearing the production number FRL 000861. 2 0 I ' m handing that to you, and I 'd like you to 21 review it if you can indicate to me when you 2 2 are finished reviewing it, I'll ask you a few 2 3 questions about this exhibit. 2 4 (Witness peruses said 2 5 document.) GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 16 8 WATER PCB-SD0000070672 1 A I have reviewed it 2 Q. Have you seen this kind of 3 document before? 4 A. Yes, I have. 5 Q. Can you identify it? 6 A. It is a label to beaffixed to 7 drums of products containing PCBs. It's a 8 Monsanto label and was used for those few 9 cases where the information contained on this 1 0 document was not available on the product 11 label that had to accompany this, this 1 2 particular label. This is a supplementary 1 3 label . 1 4 Q. Do you know when Monsanto first 1 5 began using this kind of supplementary label? 1 6 A. Well, the format changed as more 1 7 information was obtained through the years. 1 8 The reference, for example, to presence in 1 9 the environment and preventing leakage and 2 0 all, you may recall, was in a, a paragraph 2 1 that was added to products starting in 1970, 2 2 and through the period '71, '12, and so on, 2 3 additional messages were included. For 2 4 example, the reference to contact with food 2 5 and animal feedstuffs and pharmaceuticals, GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 16 9 WATER PCB-SD0000070673 1 that was added in 1971. The reference to 2 waste disposal was added in 1971. The 3 reference to Department 831 came about in 4 1 9 7 5, so this particular exhibit reflects , 5 really, the, the accumulation of all that 6 data on one piece of paper. 7 Q. Okay. Referring back to 8 Papageorge Exhibit Number 17, I'd like to 9 direct your attention to the shipping address 1 0 that appears on the first two pages of 11 Exhibit Number 17. It indicates Department 1 2 Number 246 in Sauget? 1 3 A . Yes. 1 4 Q. Can, just for purposes of 1 5 clarification, can you tell me when the 16 shipping address changed from Department 246 17 to Department 831, as indicated on Exhibit 1 8 number 20? 1 9 A. It changed from 246 to 700 2 0 something and then 831. The 700 number was 2 1 about 1973, and 831 was adopted about 2 2 1975-ish. These are really assigned by the 2 3 Accounting Department so they can keep their 2 4 books appropriately. It's the same set of 2 5 people. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 17 0 WATER PCB-SD0000070674 1 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: You can set 2 Exhibit Number 2 0 aside. 3 BY MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: 4 Q. Did Mons anto include instructions 5 against the entry of PCBs into the 6 environment on shipping documents 7 accompanying products sold to Monsanto's PCB 8 customers? 9 A. They started that, yes. 1 0 Q. Do you recall when they started 11 that? 1 2 A. About 1 9 7 2 . 1 3 (Papageorge Deposition 1 4 Exhibit 21 marked for 1 5 identification. ) 1 6 BY MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: 17 Q. Mr. Papageorge, I've had the court 1 8 reporter mark for identification purposes as 1 9 Exhibit Number 21 a single-page document 2 0 bearing production number FRL 001021. I'm 2 1 handing it to you and I'd like for you to 2 2 review it. When you'v e finished reviewing 2 3 it, please indicate to me. 2 4 (Witness peruses said 2 5 document . ) GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 17 1 WATER PCB-SD0000070675 1 I have reviewed this. 2 Q . Sir, have you seen this type of 3 document before? 4 A . Yes, I have. 5 Q. Can you tell us what it is ? 6 A. This is a copy of a shipping 7 document which shows that the material was 8 ordered by Electronic Component Division of 9 Universal in Patterson, New Jersey, for 1 0 material to be shipped to Bridgeport, 11 Connecticut. It calls for the material, it's 1 2 an 8,000-gallon tank car, it shows the 1 3 weight, and it does include three paragraphs 1 4 that refer to spillage and control. 1 5 Q. You are referring to the language 1 6 reading, "This product contains 1 7 polychlorinated biphenyls (PCBs) which some 1 8 studies have shown may be persistent, an 1 9 environmental contaminant, and possibly 2 0 injurious to certain forms of bird, aquatic 2 1 and animal life. Prevent any entry into the 2 2 environment through spills, leakage, 2 3 disposal, vaporization, reuse of containers 2 4 or otherwise"? 2 5 A . Yes. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 17 2 WATER PCB-SD0000070676 1 Q Okay. 2 A. And on; it's got some more 3 sentences there . 4 Q. Okay.Would this shipping 5 document have accompanied product that was 6 shipped to Universal's Bridgeport facility? 7 A. One would accompany the produc t, 8 another would be sent through the mail. 9 Another copy would be sent through the mail. 1 0 Q. Okay. Just so that I'm clear , a 11 copy of this would have been sent to 1 2 Universal's Bridgeport plant? 1 3 A. That's right. 1 4 Q. Do you have an understanding of 1 5 how this type of document is prepared by 1 6 Mons an to ? 1 7 A. I don't understand the question. 1 8 You mean the mechanics of doing it, or -- 1 9 Q. Yes, sir, the process which 2 0 resulted in this kind of shipping document. 2 1 A. I don't quite know how to answer 2 2 it. There are people, of course, involved. 2 3 They do get the, the order, sometimes by 24 telephone, sometimes by mail, sometimes 2 5 directly from the customer, sometimes from GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 17 3 WATER PCB-SD0000070677 1 our field sales representative . That 2 information is noted, and in thos e days in 3 1 9 7 2, this would be, of course , typed on 4 blank forms and they would also ship -- type 5 in the date of shipment and the tank car 6 number, which is in the upper right-hand 7 corner. The environmental statements we just 8 read would be stamped on, really. It was a, 9 a stamp prepared, and then later on, when the 1 0 tank car was weighed at the railroad scale, 11 the numbers shown at the bottom of the page 12 would be included on the document. I don't 1 3 know how else to describe that. 1 4 Q. Was the information concerning the 1 5 order put on these types of documents by 1 6 employees at Monsanto whose responsibilities 1 7 included taking such information from 1 8 customers and preparing shipping documents, 1 9 based on that information? 2 0 A. Yes. Yes. 2 1 Q . Were shipping documents such a s 2 2 the one we've had marked a s Exhibit Number 21 2 3 prepared in the regular course of Monsanto's 2 4 business? 2 5 A . Yes. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 17 4 WATER PCB-SD0000070678 1 Q . Who a t Monsanto would stamp the 2 environmental s tatement on a document such as 3 this? 4 A . Oh , this would be any one of about 5 almost half a dozen people. 11 would b e the 6 individual who was in the -- who was the 7 contact person in the Customer Order 8 Processing Department, and then he would have 9 his clerks a t the typewriters; any of those 1 0 individuals could put that on there. 11 Q. Would this kind of shipping 1 2 document be prepared a t or about the time 1 3 that Monsanto received a n order from a 1 4 customer? 1 5 A. 11 would be started a t that time 1 6 and then later , when the shipment was made , 1 7 the current dates , tank car numbers, the 1 8 information that was lacking immediately 1 9 would be included until the form was 2 0 completed and the shipment released. 2 1 Q. Once this type of document had 2 2 been completed, what would be done with it? 2 3 A. Well, one copy would accompany the 2 4 bill of lading, along with the shipping 2 5 papers to the railroad . Of course, copies GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 17 5 WATER PCB-SD0000070679 1 would be kept in the file, and the copy would 2 be sent to the field salesman and a copy 3 could be sent to the cus tomer, along with an 4 acknowledgement order. Many times, the two 5 would go together, unless there was a long 6 delay between the day the order was placed 7 and the date of shipment. Then a n 8 acknowledgement order would be sent sooner 9 than the date of -- than the shipping 1 0 document. That's in general what happened. 1 1 It varied slightly from case to case. 1 2 Q . With respect to the environmental 1 3 language stamped on this shipping document, 1 4 can you tell me why Monsanto would include 1 5 this language on the shipping document? 1 6 A. Of course, the principal reason is 1 7 to communicate. We were fairly certain that 1 8 the customer and its people had already 1 9 understood the need for this kind of action 2 0 or behavior. The new reason for including 2 1 this is to also inform the transporting 2 2 company, whether it be a truck driver, or a 2 3 railroad individual, or if necessary, an 2 4 emergency response team that responds to an 2 5 accident that might occur during the GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 17 6 WATER PCB-SD0000070680 1 shipping. 2 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: Okay, let's 3 set Exhibit Number 21 aside. 4 (Papageorge Deposition 5 Exhibit 2 2 marked for 6 identification . ) 7 BY MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: 8 Q. Mr. Papageorge, I've had the court 9 reporter mark for identification purposes a s 1 0 Exhibit Number 2 2 a three-page document 1 1 bearing production numbers FRL 000078 12 consecutive through 000080. I'm handing it 1 3 to you. I'd like you to review it, and in 1 4 the interests of speeding things up, in the 1 5 course of your review, bear in mind that my 1 6 first question will be whether or not you 17 have seen this type of document before, and 1 8 if so,could you identify what it is. 1 9 (Witness peruses said 2 0 document . ) 21 A. I have seen this kind of document. 2 2 11 is a copy of a n invoice for material 2 3 shipped . This particular one refers to a 2 4 shipment to Electronic Components in New 2 5 Jersey. I don't know what else to add a t GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 177 WATER PCB-SD0000070681 1 this point . 2 Q. Okay . Do you see the reference 3 under "Description, Price and Unit" midway 4 down the first page of the exhibit, to a n 5 8,000-gallon tank car? 6 A. I do . 7 Q. Do you recall the size of tank 8 cars used to ship PCB products to Universal 9 in 1970? 1 0 8,000-gallon was the size car 1 1 used 1 2 MS. SOBEL: David, I'm just going 1 3 to ask for a clarification for my own sake. 1 4 Are you talking about, when you say 1 5 "Universal," are you just talking about 1 6 Universal generally, or are you talking about 17 any particular size? 1 8 BY MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: 1 9 Q. Let's clarify that. Were 2 0 different size tank cars used to ship PCB 2 1 products to Universal a t its different sites? 2 2 A. Not to my knowledge. 2 3 Q. Would a n 8 , 000-gallon tank car be 2 4 used to ship PCB products to Universal's 2 5 Bridgeport site in 1970? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 17 8 WATER PCB-SD0000070682 1 A . Yes. 2 Q. And it would be used the same size 3 tank car would be used to ship PCB produc ts 4 to Universal a t its New Jersey site? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Do you have an understanding as to 7 how or the process by which invoices such a s 8 the one we've had marked as Exhibit 22 were 9 prepared by Monsanto? 1 0 A. Oh, I don't know the exact 1 1 mechanics of it. I do know that they were 1 2 the responsibility of the Accounts Receivable 1 3 Department. They would use the documents 1 4 similar to the one we had under Exhibit 21 to 1 5 get their information. That information at 1 6 that time in 1972 was done manually, with 17 typewriters, and the forms were filled out 1 8 and the invoice mailed. I don't know, again, 1 9 how to describe the procedure any more than 2 0 that. 2 1 Q. Okay, were invoices such a s the 2 2 one we've got marked as Exhibit 22 prepared 2 3 by employees within Monsanto whose 2 4 responsibilities included the preparation of 2 5 invoices? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 17 9 WATER PCB-SD0000070683 1 A . Yes 2 Q. Were they prepared a t or about the 3 time that materials described in the invoice 4 were shipped to the cus tomer ? 5 A . I'm under a n understanding that it 6 wasn't that quickly done. There was a n 7 interval of time between. I don't personally 8 know how long a n interval of time, but it did 9 allow for the material to arrive at its 1 0 destination to be acceptable to the customer 11 and to be unloaded, and thereby avoided the 1 2 situation where invoice would be sent and a 1 3 shipment rejected and returned, and 1 4 complicating the paper work. 1 5 Q I ' d like to direct your attention 1 6 to the line of information a t the top of 17 Exhibit 22; i n particular, i n the block 1 8 indicated " Date shipped." Do you see the 1 9 date, there, as being November 16th, 1972? 2 0 A . I saw that, yes. 2 1 Q. To the right of that, there's an 2 2 invoice date on this exhibit. 2 3 A . I saw that, too, yes. 2 4 Q The date is the same. 2 5 A . I ' m certain that although it's REPORTING COMPANY - ST . LOUIS, MISSOURI 18 0 WATER 1 typed o n the 16th that it wasn't mailed a t 2 that time. There was a period of time -- 3 Q. Okay. 4 A. -- to allow for the transaction to 5 be completed. 6 Q. Before the invoice was actually 7 mailed. 8 A. Mailed, yes. 9 Q . Okay. 1 0 A. That's what I had reference to. I 1 1 don't understand this particular date, here. 1 2 Q. Let me ask you, then, setting 1 3 aside when the invoice, itself, may have been 1 4 mailed to the customer, would the invoice 1 5 have been prepared at or about the time that 1 6 the product was shipped to the customer? 1 7 A. I'm under understanding that there 1 8 were several days between the time of 1 9 shipment and the time of invoice preparation. 2 0 Q . Were invoices such a s the type 2 1 we've had marked a s Exhibit Number 2 2 2 2 prepared in the regular course of Mons an to ' s 23 business? 2 4 A . Ye s . . 2 5 Q. Who would put the environmental GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 18 1 WATER PCB-SD0000070685 1 statement on the invoices? 2 A. Generally, it was the preparer of 3 the document, the clerk . 4 Q. Do you recall when Monsanto began 5 to include this environmental 1anguage on 6 invoices for PCB products it was selling? 7 A. Just like they did on the shipping 8 documents, about 72. 9 Q. Can you tell me why Monsanto 1 0 included this environmental language on its 11 invoices? 1 2 A. Yes, it's again an attempt to make 1 3 certain that somebody in the customer's 1 4 organization is reminded of the need to 1 5 remember this message and it's an attempt, 1 6 too, to make certain that with changes of 17 personnel amongst our customers, that someone 1 8 doesn't forget the need to remember the 1 9 message. 2 0 (Papageorge Deposition 2 1 Exhibit 2 3 marked for 2 2 identification.) 2 3 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: You can set 2 4 Exhibit Number 2 2 aside, so that we may move 2 5 on to Exhibit Number 2 3 , which consists of a GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 18 2 WATER PCB-SD0000070686 1 single page bearing a production number FRL 2 001836. It is headed "The handling of 3 Aroclors (chlorinated diphenyl) Down a t 4 the bottom , there is a notation reading, 5 "Attachment 3-1." I'd like to ask you to 6 review this document, and if you can indicate 7 to me when you are finished with your review, 8 then I can ask you some questions about it. 9 (Witness peruses said 1 0 document . ) 1 1 A. I have finished reviewing it. 1 2 Q. Mr. Papageorge, have you seen this 1 3 particular document before? 1 4 A. I have. 1 5 Q. Can you tell me what it is? 1 6 A. I can tell you a little bit about 1 7 it. I wish I knew all of it. This is a page 1 8 out of a document, and this particular page 1 9 addresses the handling of Aroclors, and the 2 0 reference to chlorinated diphenyl strongly 2 1 indicates that the document must have existed 2 2 back in the Thirties and Forties . The -- 2 3 some of the suggested treatments in this 2 4 document were changed through the years , 2 5 which again emphasizes that this document is GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 18 3 WATER PCB-SD0000070687 1 a n early document. I canno t tell from 2 looking just a t this page what the original 3 document was. 4 Q. Do you have anyunderstanding a s 5 to who prepared this document? 6 A. Yes, I have. 7 Q . Who ? 8 A. This would be prepared by Dr. 9 Kelly's Medical Department. 1 0 Q. Do you know whether this 1 1 particular page that we've had marked as 1 2 Exhibit Number 23 was provided to any of 1 3 Monsanto's customers? 1 4 A. I do not. 1 5 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: Let's set 1 6 Exhibit Number 2 3 aside , and I 'd ask the 17 court reporter to mark a s Exhibit Number 2 4 a 1 8 single-page document bearing the production 1 9 number FRL 001836. 2 0 (Papageorge Deposition 2 1 Exhibit 2 4 marked for 2 2 identification.) 2 3 BY MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: 2 4 Q. I'm handing it to you; I'd like 2 5 you to review it. If you can tell me when GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 18 4 WATER PCB-SD0000070688 1 you v e completed your review , I will ask you 2 some questions about it. 3 (Witness peruses said 4 document.) 5 A. I have reviewed it. 6 Q. Have you seen this document 7 before? 8 A. It appears familiar, yes. 9 Q . Can you tell me what it is? 1 0 A. This is a page out of another 11 document and addresses toxicity safe handling 1 2 and it does refer to askarel fluids and the 1 3 date on it, of course, shows that it's a 1 4 1971 -1 5 Q. Excuse me. You are referring to 1 6 the typed date up in the upper right-hand 1 7 corner? 1 8 A . Yes. 1 9 Q. I'd like to direct your attention 2 0 to the handwritten date below that. The 2 1 typewritten date appears to be 2-252 2 seventy -- 2 3 A . S one thing. 2 4 Q. -- something. The handwritten 2 5 date is indicated to be 2-25-73. Do you have GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 18 5 WATER PCB-SD0000070689 1 any independent recollection as to whether 2 this document was prepared in February of 3 19 7 1? 4 A. Not knowing what bulletin or what 5 other document this came from, it's extremely 6 difficult to do that. I do know, though , in 7 1 9 7 3, when the ANSI committee was active , 8 this, the information on this document would 9 have been reviewed by Monsanto's Medical 1 0 Department. I find it hard to relate this 11 particular wording with the kinds of 1 2 information that was used in 1973 by the 1 3 committee, so I'm having difficulty with 1 4 those dates. 1 5 Q. Okay. Do you recall whether 1 6 Monsanto advised its PCB customers, in 17 particular its Aroclor customers, that they 1 8 should not heat Aroclors in open vessels 1 9 above a temperature at which fumes appear? 2 0 A. Yes, that information was included 2 1 in bulletins which were published in the 2 2 Fifties , Sixties. 2 3 Q. Is your answer complete? I'm 24 sorry , I was looking down, and I didn't know 2 5 whether you were finished or not. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 18 6 WATER PCB-SD0000070690 1 A . Yeah. 2 Q . Okay. 3 A. That information you asked about 4 was included in bulletins published in the 5 Fifties and Sixties. 6 Q . Do you recall what that 7 temperature is? 8 A. Which temperature ? I thought you 9 mentioned 360 degrees or something. 1 0 Q. No, sir, I didn't. I asked you 11 about a temperature a t which fumes appeared. 1 2 A . Oh, all right. A s I recall, it 1 3 was 300 or so Fahrenheit -- 300 or so degrees 1 4 Fahrenheit. 1 5 Q. Do you recall whether Monsanto 1 6 advised its Aroclor customers that they 1 7 should not heat Aroclors even in closed 1 8 vessels and then remove them in open 1 9 environments a t temperatures above which 2 0 fumes would appear? 2 1 A. I don't recall that Monsanto 2 2 referred to specific conditions regarding 2 3 temperatures and fumes other than to caution 2 4 the customer not to expose its employees to 2 5 the fumes, and it's up to the cus tomer then GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 18 7 WATER PCB-SD0000070691 1 to decide under which conditions those fumes 2 were excessive and either withdraw the 3 employees or give them protection -- 4 protective equipment. 5 Q . Do you recall when Mons anto began, 6 began issuing such warnings to its PCB 7 customers? 8 A. Oh, almost from the very 9 beginning. It's, it's part of the general 10 precautionary statement that says avoid 1 1 prolonged breathing of fumes , and a s I 1 2 recall, it was on -- it was in the bulletins, 1 3 product bulletins regarding health effects 1 4 due to breathing of fumes. 1 5 Q. Do you recall whether Universal's 1 6 employees were exposed to PCB fumes at the 1 7 Bridgeport plant? 1 8 A. I don't really associate a fume 1 9 problem with Universal employees. I'm not 20 aware of any of that. 2 1 Q. Okay. During your visit to 2 2 Univers al 's Bridgeport plant , did you have 2 3 the opportunity to observe the manufacturing 2 4 operations a t that plant? 2 5 A. Yes, mm-h mm. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MIS S OURI 18 8 WATER PCB-SD0000070692 1 Q Did you have the opportunity to 2 see how the capacitors manufactured a t the 3 Bridgeport plant were impregnated with PCBs? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q . Could you describe how that was 6 done a t the Bridgeport plant? 7 A. I don't know that I can recall all 8 the specifics, but it's -- it was again a 9 case of capacitors that had been filled with 1 0 the windings and they had a cover on them 11 with a n opening, and they were in trays , a s I 1 2 recall, and they were introduced into the 1 3 impregnating chambers and they, the liquid 1 4 material was introduced in the impregnating 1 5 chambers. Of course, the chambers previously 1 6 had been heated to drive off moisture, and 17 after a given period of time, which I don't 1 8 recall now, the units were allowed to cool 1 9 down and then they opened them up and took 2 0 out the now-filled capacitors, and a s I 2 1 remember, the emp1oye e s were then sealing the 2 2 opening on the upper cover of the capacitor . 2 3 The capacitors , of course , were still oily 2 4 from the PCB dielectric fluid; they had to be 2 5 degreased. That's all I kind of remember GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 18 9 WATER PCB-SD0000070693 1 about it. They, they were the small 2 capacitors that I saw. By small, I'm talking 3 about the size of this glass or smaller. 4 Q . Okay. You mentioned trays: Do 5 you have a recollection a s to what those 6 trays looked like? 7 A. I don't know how to describe them. 8 They had handles and they were packed with 9 capacitors. They were, what, a yard wide and 1 0 maybe 30 inches deep. Something about that 11 size. 1 2 Q. Do you recall whether the bottoms 1 3 of these -- first of all, do you recall 1 4 whether these trays had bottoms? 1 5 A. I thought they were cage 1 6 construction, basket construction. 17 Q. Okay. 1 8 A. Not solid trays. 1 9 Q. Were these trays manually removed 2 0 by Universal employees from the impregnation 2 1 chambers after they had been filled with PCB 2 2 fluid? 2 3 A . Yes . 24 Q. Do you recall howthey were 2 5 conveyed to the employees who did the sealing GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 19 0 WATER PCB-SD0000070694 1 on the capacitors? 2 A. I'd have to be careful I don't 3 confuse my capacitor plants. 4 Q. Certainly. 5 A. It was an assembly line kind of an 6 operation where these units would go by and 7 the employees were sealing the holes, is all 8 I remember. I have an impression it was a 9 conveying system. 1 0 Q. You indicated that the capacitors, 1 1 I believe, at the sealing stage were still 1 2 oily from the PCB dielectric fluid? 1 3 A . Yes. 1 4 Q. Does that mean that there was PCB 1 5 oilon the outside of the capacitors? 1 6 A. It was oil along the sides and 1 7 then at the top, because of the lip around 1 8 the condenser, there was a film of oil across 1 9 the top, through which the soldering iron or 2 0 hole-filling device would have to go through 2 1 the liquid to deposit the metal to seal the 2 2 hole. 2 3 Q. Do you recall anyone from 2 4 Universal indicating that the manual removal 2 5 of the trays containing the PCB, PCB-filled GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 19 1 WATER PCB-SD0000070695 1 capacitors from the impregnation chambers 2 with the PCB oil on the outside of the 3 capacitors had led to the stains that you 4 observed on the floors of the plant? 5 A. I don't recall that specific 6 discussion. It doesn't mean it didn't 7 happen. I don't recall it. 8 Q. One way or the other? 9 . A. That's right , one way or the 1 0 other. 1 1 Q. Do you recall now, having gone 1 2 through the process at the Bridgeport plant, 1 3 where in the plant you observed those stains? 1 4 A. No, I was kind of turned around, 1 5 being a stranger in the plant. No, I 1 6 couldn't tell you. 17 Q. Okay. Do you recall anyone at 1 8 Universal indicating to you whether the -- 1 9 whether there was drippage or leakage of PCB 2 0 oil that was inherent to the manufacturing 2 1 process at that plant? 22 A . I do not recall that specific 2 3 subject. Now, there was evidence that I 2 4 indicated earlier of what I call the oil 2 5 stains, and there was a recognition amongst GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS S OURI 19 2 WATER PCB-SD0000070696 1 a 11 of us present a t the discussion that 2 material was getting on, onto the floors, and 3 so on . I don't recall personally the use of 4 the word "drippage" from the impregnation 5 coming out. I, to me, I assume that, but the 6 words, themselves, weren't brought out. 7 Q. Do you recall whether anyone from 8 Universal offered any explanation a s to how 9 the material was getting onto the floors of 1 0 the plant? 11 A . 11 wasn't an explanation, it was 1 2 an acknowledgement that it was getting on, 1 3 they're going to have to do something better: 1 4 That kind of discussion. 15 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: Let's have 1 6 this marked a s Exhibit Number 2 5. 1 7 (PapageorgeDeposition 1 8 Exhibit 2 5 marked for 1 9 identification . ) 20 BY MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: 2 1 Q . Mr . Papageorge, I've had the court 2 2 reporter mark for identification purposes a s 2 3 Exhibit 2 5 a series of documents bearing 2 4 production numbe r s FRL 0 0 1 9 3 1 consecutive 2 5 through FRL 0 0 1 9 4 8 . I'm handing it to you. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 19 3 WATER PCB-SD0000070697 1 I'd like you to review this exhibit in its 2 entirety . When you have finished with your 3 review, if you could indicate that to me and 4 I'll ask you a few questions about it. 5 (Witness peruses said 6 document . ) 7 A. I have reviewed the exhibit. 8 Q. I'd like to direct your attention 9 to the first page of the exhibit. Do you see 1 0 your name appearing on that page? 11 A . Ido. 1 2 Q. Do you see the check mark next to 1 3 it? 1 4 A . Yes. 1 5 Q And the date stamp next to the 1 6 check mark ? 17 A . Yes. 1 8 Q . Does that indicate that you 1 9 received a copy of what we've had marked as 2 0 Exhibit Number 25 on or about August 27th of 21 1 9 7 3 ? 2 2 A . It does. 2 3 Q. Who was Cumming Paton? 2 4 A. A t that time. Dr. Paton was the 2 5 Manager of Fluid Sales . GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 19 4 WATER PCB-SD0000070698 1 Q. Do you know whether he still works 2 for Monsanto? 3 A. I believe he does. No, let me 4 think a bit. He retired recently, I guess . 5 He'sretired. 6 Q Do you know about when that was? 7 A . Within the past year. 8 0 . Do you know where h e is now? 9 A . I understand he's i n the St. Louis 1 0 area. 11 Q. Okay, I'd like to direct your 1 2 attention to the second and third pages of 1 3 the exhibit. Do these pages comprise the 1 4 letter that's referred to in the memorandum 1 5 which itself comprises the first page of the 1 6 exhibit, that you received from Mr. Paton? 17 A. They do . 1 8 Q. The memorandum, which, for the 1 9 record, is dated August 3rd, 1973, appears on 2 0 Monsanto stationery, refers to an attached 2 1 list of P yd r a u1 customers . 22 A. No, the letter doesn't -- 2 3 Q . I ' m sorry. 2 4 A. -- but the first page does. 2 5 Q . That's correct, the first page GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 19 5 WATER PCB-SD0000070699 1 does. Would you take a look a t the last page 2 of the exhibit? Maybe the last two pages . 3 A. I have them. 4 Q . Okay, is that the attached list of 5 Pydraul customers that was attached to the 6 first page of this exhibit? 7 A . Well, that's a t least two pages of 8 the list. 9 Q. Okay. Do you know whether Mr. 1 0 Paton's August 3rd, 1973, letter which 1 1 comprises the second and third pages of the 1 2 exhibit, was sent, that that letter was sent 1 3 to Universal? 1 4 A. At the addresses shown on the last 1 5 two pages. 1 6 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: Youcan set 1 7 ExhibitNumber 2 5 aside. 1 8 (Papageorge Deposition 1 9 Exhibit 26 marked for 2 0 identification.) 2 1 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: Let'sgo off 2 2 therecord for a moment. 2 3 (Discussion off the record . ) 2 4 { Papageorge Deposition 2 5 Exhibit 2 7 marked for GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 19 6 WATER PCB-SD0000070700 1 identification.) 2 ( Papageorge Deposition 3 Exhibit 2 8 marked for 4 identification. ) 5 BY MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: 6 Q. Mr. Papageorge, I've had the court 7 reporter mark a s Exhibit Number 2 6 for 8 identification the three-page letter bearing 9 the production numbers FRL 003182, 3183, 1 0 3184, appears to be a letter on Monsanto 1 1 letterhead dated August 11, 1975, to Mr. Ray 1 2 Clark, Universal Manuf acturing Corporation. 1 3 I've also had the court reporter 1 4 mark a s Exhibit Number 2 7 for identification 1 5 a three-page letter, also on Monsanto 1 6 letterhead, also dated August 11, 1975, 1 7 bearing production numbers FRL 003185, 3186 1 8 and 3187, addressed to Mr. Ed Wickson of 1 9 Universal Manufacturing C o r p. , and a s Exhibit 2 0 Number 2 8 for identification, I've had the 2 1 court reporter mark a three-page letter 2 2 bearing the production numbers FRL 0 0 3 1 9 4 , 2 3 3 1 9 5, 3 1 9 6, also on Mons an to letterhead, also 24 dated August 11, 1975, addressed to Mr. 2 5 Arm and D e M a u r o, Universal Manufacturing GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 19 7 WATER PCB-SD0000070701 1 on . 2 Can you take a look a t those three 3 exhibits, however much time you need to 4 review them ? The first question I will ask 5 you is -- and bear this in mind when you 6 review -- whether, with the exception of the 7 addressees , individual addressees, these 8 letters are identical to each other. 9 (Witness peruses said 1 0 document.) 11 A . I'm familiar with these letters . 1 2 They are identical. They were sent to 1 3 customers on record as of August 1975. This 1 4 included customers still receiving PCB-type 1 5 products, as well as those customers who had 1 6 purchased PCBs from Monsanto in the past. 1 7 Q. Okay, I'd like to direct your 1 8 attention -- let's take Exhibit Numbe r 2 6 a s 1 9 an example -- to the last page of the 2 0 exhibit. Do you recall whether Phillip 2 1 Slayton was Regional Sales Manager of 2 2 Monsanto' s Specialty Products Group in Augus t 2 3 of 1975? 2 4 A . He was. 2 5 Q. Do you recognize that to be Mr. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS S OURI 19 8 WATER PCB-SD0000070702 1 Slayton's signature? 2 A . As best I recall , yes. 3 o. Do you know whether Mr. Slayton is 4 still employed by Mons an to ? 5 A . I do not. 6 Q Do you know where he is? 7 A . I do not. 8 Q . I'd like to direct your attention 9 to the line copies there are listed below Mr. 1 0 Slayton's signature. 11 Do you know who J. S. Pullman was? 1 2 A . In 1975, Mr. Pullman was the field 1 3 salesman for Monsanto who was assigned the 1 4 Universal Manufacturing Company's locations 1 5 represented in these three documents. I 1 6 think he's in -- 17 Q. Just so that we're clear on the 1 8 record, can you take a look at Exhibit Number 1 9 28, the last page of that exhibit? 2 0 A. The last one is a different 2 1 individual. I was wrong. 2 2 Q Okay. Let's go back to 26. Do 2 3 you know whether Mr. Pullman is still 2 4 employed by Monsanto? 2 5 A . The last I heard, he was retired. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 19 9 WATER PCB-SD0000070703 1 Q . Do you know where he is now? 2 A . I do not. 3 g. Now, earlier you had mentioned a 4 Mr. Wood. Do you see the reference to 5 D. Wood? 6 A . I do. 7 Q On Exhibit Number 26? 8 A . Yes. 9 Q Is that the same Wood that you had 1 0 referred to earlier? 11 A . Yes. 1 2 Q Okay. Take a look at Exhibit 1 3 Number 28, the last page, the reference to 1 4 J. E. Spinks. Do you know who J. E. Spinks 1 5 was? 1 6 A. Yes, I do. Mr. Spinks was the 17 Monsanto sales representative to whom the New 1 8 Jersey Universal site was assigned. 1 9 Q. Do you know whether Mr. Spinks is 2 0 still employed by Monsanto? 2 1 A . I do not. 2 2 Q . Do you know where he is now? 2 3 A . I do not. 2 4 0 Okay. Do you recall the 2 5 circumstances which led to Monsanto sending GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 200 WATER PCB-SD0000070704 1 these letters to Messrs. Clark, Wickson and 2 D e Mauro? 3 A . I do . 4 Q. Can you describe those 5 circumstances for us? 6 A . Mons anto had been receiving return 7 material in increasing quantities from the 8 period starting in '71 or thereabouts through 9 this period 17 5 and was experiencing many 1 0 difficulties because some of the customers 11 were using containers that were not adequate 12 for the kind of material that PCBs are. They 1 3 were using weaker drurns, thinner drums, and 1 4 in transit, these drums would leak, creating 1 5 all sorts of spillage problems in the truck 1 6 beds. The trucks were being stopped on the 17 highways and forced to clean up out in the 1 8 field . The situation got so bad that 1 9 Monsanto decided to prepare this letter and 2 0 send it to all of its cus tomers that were 2 1 either currently purchasing PCBs or had in 2 2 the past purchased PCBs, and you'll note this 2 3 is directed to the electrical application . 2 4 This was a mailing to all of them, whether 2 5 they used that disposal service or not, and GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 201 WATER PCB-SD0000070705 1 the idea being that if they didn't use it 2 today , they might use it tomorrow, so we 3 don't want them to use the wrong container if 4 they start using that service, so it was a 5 measure in terms of those who 6 did not use the service, it was a reminder to 7 t h o s e who had been using it, and it was a 8 case , too, of i f the shoe fits, you wear it. 9 Many o f them were doing a good job. It was 1 0 the few that were not. 1 1 Q . Do you recall whether Monsanto had 1 2 experienced any problems of the sort you just 1 3 described with respect to returns from 1 4 Universal? 1 5 A. No. I'm not aware of any such 1 6 situation. 17 MR. SCHWART2-LEEPER: Let's set 1 8 Exhibits 26, 27 and 28 aside. 1 9 (Papageorge Deposition 2 0 Exhibit 2 9 marked for 21 identification.) 2 2 BY MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: 2 3 Q . Mr. Papageorge, I've had the court 2 4 reporter mark for identification purposes a s 2 5 Exhibit Number 2 9 a multipage do cument GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 202 WATER PCB-SD0000070706 1 bearing the production numbers FRL 002423 2 cons ecutive through 2 4 4 9 . I'm handing it to 3 you so that you can review it. For the 4 record, the first page of the exhibit is on 5 United States Environmental Protection Agency 6 letterhead. It's dated December 22nd, 1975. 7 It's indicated to be a memorandum to regional 8 administrators, regional enforcement 9 directors, regional surveillance and analysis 1 0 directors, from the Assistant Administrator 11 For Enforcement. The subject is indicated to 12 be identification, control of environmental 1 3 sources of PCBs. 1 4 Please take of opportunity to 1 5 review this document. I'm not going to ask 1 6 you any questions concerning the contents of 1 7 the documents as such. 1 8 (Witness peruses said 1 9 document.) 2 0 A . I have 2 1 Q . Sir, ha 2 2 a s Exhibit 2 3 A . Yes. 2 4 Q Can you 2 5 A . It's a GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 203 WATER PCB-SD0000070707 1 States Environmental Protection Agency to its 2 regions , asking the individuals to which this 3 memorandum is addressed to perform the study 4 in the field of the companies listed a s users 5 of PCBs . 6 Q . Those are the companies listed on 7 Exhibit C within this exhibit in production 8 numbers 2428 through 2439? 9 A. Yes. 1 0 Q . Do you recall when you first saw 11 Exhibit 29? 1 2 A. Yes, it was after the Christmas 1 3 holidays in '75. I would suggest it was 1 4 January '76 that I was sent a copy from our 1 5 Washington office. 1 6 Q . "Our Washington office" refers to 1 7 Monsanto's? 1 8 A. Monsanto'sWashington 1 9 representatives. 2 0 Q. Do you know how Monsanto obtained 2 1 this document? 2 2 A. Not specifically , no. 2 3 Q. Did Monsanto do anything with this 2 4 document once it had been received by 2 5 Monsanto? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 204 WATER_PCB-SD0000070708 1 A . Not directly, no. 2 Q. Do you know whether it was 3 distributed to anybody on the ANSI C-10 7 4 Committee that you referred to earlier? 5 A . I n 1 9 7 6, the committee was, I'm 6 going to say dormant, although it still 7 existed on paper. Many of the companies on 8 this list were aware of it from their own 9 Washington contacts. I do not know if any of 1 0 the, of those members shared it with their 11 fellow members of ANSI. 1 2 Q. Do you know whether it was 1 3 distributed to anyone who had served on the 1 4 EIA ad hoc PCB committee? 1 5 A . I do not . 1 6 Q. Okay. Do you know whether 1 7 Universal Manufacturing ever obtained a copy 1 8 of what we've had marked as Exhibit Number 1 9 2 9? 2 0 A. I do not know. 2 1 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: Okay , you 2 2 can set 29 aside. 2 3 I apologize; I don't have a 2 4 stapler. If somebody else does, I'd 2 5 appreciate using it. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST . LOUIS , MISSOURI 205 WATER PCB-SD0000070709 1 (Pause) 2 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: For our next 3 exhibit, I'd like to ask the court reporter 4 to mark that a s number 3 0. 5 (Papageorge Deposition 6 Exhibit 30 marked for 7 identification . ) 8 BY MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: 9 Q . Mr. Papageorge, I've had the court 1 0 reporter mark as Exhibit Number 30 for 1 1 identification two pages of handwriting 1 2 bearing the production numbers FRL 002938 and 1 3 002939. For the record, the first page, 1 4 2938, begins, "Universal Manufacturing Corp . , 1 5 Bridgeport." The second page bears at the 1 6 top the date 11/26/74. I'd like to ask you, 1 7 sir, to review what we've had marked as 1 8 Exhibit Number 30. 1 9 If you can indicate to me when you 2 0 are finished. I'll ask you a few questions 2 1 about this exhibit. 2 2 (Witness peruses said 2 3 document.) 2 4 A. I have reviewed the exhibit. 2 5 Q . Sir, do you recognize any of the GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST . LOUIS , MIS S OUR I 206 WATER PCB-SD0000070710 1 handwriting on this exhibit? 2 A. I believe I do. 3 Q. Can you identify whose handwriting 4 it is? 5 A. It's been awhile, but I would 6 suggest from the handwriting and the contents 7 there was a n individual a t our Krummrich 8 Plant, Stewart was his last name, I think 9 it's Ed Stewart , Ed Stewart, who was 1 0 appointed by Monsanto to help a group of 1 1 capacitor manufacturerss who are under the 1 2 auspices of the EIA, the Electronic 1 3 Institute -- Electronic Industries 1 4 Association, EIA, to gather samples from 1 5 their plants of water effluent, ship them to 1 6 Monsanto's laboratory in the plant at Sauget, 1 7 Illinois, and analyze for the presence or 1 8 absence of PCBs. 1 9 Q. Do you recall when Mr . Stewart was 2 0 appointed by Monsanto in this regard? 2 1 A. About 1972. 2 2 Q. Do you know whether Mr. Stewart 2 3 ever visited Universal's Bridgeport plant? 2 4 A. Yes, he did. 2 5 Q. Do you recall when that took GOREREPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 207 WATER PCB-SD0000070711 1 place? 2 A. This says November '74, so -- 3 Q. Are you referring to the second 4 page of the exhibit? 5 A. Second page, yes. 6 Q. Let me ask you, just so that we're 7 all clear on the record, do you know whether 8 the second page of the exhibit is, in fact, 9 part of the same document as the first page? 1 0 A. I don ' t know. 1 1 Q. Independent of the second page of 1 2 this exhibit, do you have a recollection of 1 3 when Mr. Stewart visited Universal's 1 4 Bridgeport plant? 1 5 A. Not the exact dates. I do know 1 6 that he worked from a period late '72 through 17 '74, visiting several plants to help with 1 8 this program. I don't know when he visited 1 9 which plants. 2 0 Q. After he visited the Bridgeport 2 1 plant, did you discuss that visit with Mr. 2 2 Stewart? 2 3 A. I had a dis cus sion with Mr . 2 4 Stewart about the results of the analyses of 2 5 the samples , and this occurred , a s best I can GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 208 I WATER PCB-SD0000070712 1 remember, about 1975. 2 Q . During your discussion with Mr. 3 Stewart or any discussion you've had with Mr. 4 Stewart, did he ever indicate that Universal 5 employees had told him that they believe that 6 the loss of PCBs to the environment through 7 vacuum pumps represented a source of 8 contamination a t the plant? 9 A. There was no such discussion. 1 0 Q. I'd like to direct your attention 1 1 on the first page of the exhibit to the 1 2 paragraph that's about midway down. It's 1 3 below the diagram, which reads, "Again, Mr. 1 4 Ray Clark thinks loss to the environment via 1 5 vacuum pumps is greatest potential source." 1 6 Do you have some understanding as to what 17 that refers to? 1 8 A. I have an understanding that 1 9 although this program was addressing water 2 0 losses, Mr. Clark believed that the losses in 2 1 water were less than those that he suspected 2 2 were going out of the vents, out of the 2 3 vacuum pumps, which was a different subject 2 4 altogether, but in his opinion , thinking of 2 5 the total environment, he didn't think water GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 209 WATER PCB-SD0000070713 1 was his problem, but vents was the source of 2 his problem. 3 Q. And the problem that we're 4 referring to is the loss of PCBs into the 5 environment a t the plant? 6 A. Correct. 7 Q. Did you have any conversations 8 with Mr. Clark on that subject? 9 A. Yes. Yes, we've had conversations 1 0 with him for, oh, I know I had conversations 11 with him during the ANSI deliberations, which 1 2 took placebetween '71 and '73, where he was 1 3 also trying to get ideas from his 1 4 counterparts in other companies regarding 1 5 what they were doing and all. 1 6 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: I have no 17 further questions. 1 8 MS. SOBEL: If everyone is 1 9 amenable to it, I'd like to take a short 2 0 break . 2 1 MR. HUELSMAN: I have to change a 2 2 tape anyway. 2 3 This is the end of tape number 3 . 2 4 MR. HUELSMAN: This is the 2 5 beginning of tape number 4. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 2 10 WATER PCB-SD00000707'R 1 CROSS-EXAMINATION 2 BY MS. SOBEL: 3 Q. Mr. Papageorge, I'm going to ask 4 you a series of questions now, related to 5 some of the documents that were shown to you 6 by Mr . Schwartz-Leeper and also some 7 documents that I'm going to introduce for the 8 first time during this deposition . I have, 9 here, the protective order, a copy of the 1 0 protective order that has been signed by all 1 1 the parties in this case. I'd like for your 1 2 counsel to be here to review it with you and 1 3 so that you can decide whether or not you are 1 4 comfortable signing it. It's just to prevent 1 5 the disclosure of any documents, and I can 1 6 refer you, once I have it marked as an 1 7 exhibit, to the particular paragraphs. You 1 8 can pass that down. 1 9 (Papageorge Deposition 2 0 Exhibit 31 marked for 21 identification.) 2 2 MS. SOBEL: We'll mark that a s 2 3 Exhibit 31 for identification purposes. 2 4 BY MS. SOBEL: 2 5 Q . Mr . Papageorge , on Exhibit 31 , I GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 2 11 WATER PCB-SD0000070715 ,1 would refer to you paragraph 3 -A on page 2 2 which says that, "Confidential materials 3 shall be used only for the purposes of this 4 litigation and not for any other person" 5 (sic) "whatsoever and not be given, s hown, 6 made available or communicated in any way to 7 anyone except to whom it is necessary, " e t 8 cetera . I ask you and your counsel to review 9 that and once you've had a chance to review 1 0 it, if you are willing to sign the 1 1 certificate that's marked as Exhibit A. 1 2 MR. DAVIDSON: Do you need him to 1 3 decide that before you go on? 1 4 MS. SOBEL: Well, the only reason 1 5 I do is because certain exhibits were 1 6 produced by Travelers in this litigation. I 17 think that that's the practice between the 1 8 parties has been that we don't disclose these 1 9 documents unless they're signed, so I, I 2 0 won't -- if you are not comfortable signing 2 1 it today, I will not introduce those 2 2 documents a s exhibits . 2 3 MR. DAVIDSON: I was just going to 2 4 look at it a little more while you go ahead, 2 5 if you want to do that. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 2 12 WATER PCB-SD0000070716 1 MS . SOBEL: Oh . Sure. The first 2 few exhibits don't concern it anyway, so -- 3 BY MS . SOBEL : 4 Q. I'm going to go back to some of 5 your testimony concerning the relationship 6 between Monsanto and Universal, and I'm going 7 to ask you your general recollection about 8 how Universal was regarded by Monsanto, and 9 this goes to the approval that was given to, 1 0 certainly, Monsanto customers in the 1970's. 1 1 Was Universal regarded as a responsible 1 2 corporation by Monsanto? 1 3 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: Object as to 1 4 the form of the question. 1 5 MS. SOBEL: What do you object to, 1 6 Counsel? 17 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: The form. 1 8 MS. SOBEL: It's not my 1 9 deposition. I'm allowed to lead the witness. 2 0 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: If that's 2 1 the case, then with respect to any documents 2 2 that you'v e introduced today a s new exhibits , 2 3 I'll object a s being beyond the scope of 2 4 direct. 2 5 MS . SOBEL : Well, as far as those GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 2 13 WATER PCB-SD0000070717 1 exhibits are concerned , if you want to object 2 to them a t the time that I introduce them, 3 you are more than willing to do so, but I 4 believe that most of the documents that I 5 will be asking about will be directly 6 relevant to the scope of your examination 7 today. 8 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: I still 9 maintain my objection as to to the form. 1 0 MS. SOBEL: Okay. 11 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: I don't know 1 2 what you mean by "responsible." 1 3 MS. SOBEL: Okay. Well, those 1 4 words were used, in fact, earlier today, 1 5 so -- 1 6 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: The record 17 will show what they were. 1 8 BY MS. SOBEL: 1 9 Q. How would you describe -- how 2 0 would you describe Monsanto's impression that 2 1 Universal is a corporate customer? 2 2 A . Universal i were 2 3 very responsive, very concerned, very active, 2 4 and Mr . Ray Clark, in all my dealings with 2 5 the man and observations, had considerable GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS S OURI 2 14 WATER PCB-SD0000070718 1 respect not only the for Monsanto, but other 2 memb er s of the various committees that w e 3 worked on. He was a very influential 4 individual in this area. 5 Q Would Monsanto do business with 6 Universal i f they didn't have that 7 impre s sion ? 8 A. Very likely not. 9 Q . Going back to the point in time 1 0 when Monsanto adopted its standards for 11 approval, what year was that? 1 2 A. I'm sorry, Monsanto'sstandards 1 3 for approval? 1 4 Q . Right. 1 5 A. Oh, oh. I understand. This was, 1 6 this program was adopted by Monsanto in 17 December of '71. The program became 1 8 effective January '72. 1 9 Q. And was Universal such an approved 2 0 c u s t o me r ? 2 1 A. Yes, Universal, as I recall, was 22 finallyapproved in February of '72. 2 3 Q. Why ? Do you recall why? 24 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: Why what? 2 5 BY MS. SOBEL: GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 2 15 WATER PCB-SD0000070719 1 Q. Why Universal was approved. 2 A. Because they agreed to abide by 3 all the, the conditions that were deemed 4 necessary to make us all responsible users of 5 PCBs . 6 Q. And do you recall what those 7 standards were? 8 A. Well, I can try to recall some of 9 the features. One was the use in these 1 0 closed systems as defined by capacitors 1 1 specifically for Universal, the proper care 1 2 in storing, using, shipping, disposing of the 1 3 PCBs, and of course, the condition that 1 4 Monsanto insisted on was to have proper 1 5 financial responsibility to cope with any 1 6 problems that might arise in spite of all the 17 things that were done. 1 8 Q. Okay, going back to some of those 1 9 factors, for example, you mentioned proper 2 0 care. How did Monsanto assess whether proper 2 1 care was being taken by its customers? 2 2 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: At what 2 3 time? 2 4 MS. SOBEL: During the time a t 2 5 which they made the approval. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 2 16 WATER PCB-SD0000070720 1 A. Monsanto was not in the field of 2 regulation and assessment. That judgment of 3 the quality of care was left up to the 4 individual customer. Monsanto served the 5 role of advising them that unless they did 6 not meet fairly high standards, they would 7 run into problems with the authorities that 8 did have regulatory responsibilities. 9 Monsanto was in no position to enforce 10 anything All we could do is persuade, beg 1 1 and coach, whatever it took to get their 1 2 attention. 1 3 BY MR. SOBEL: 1 4 Q. So would it be fair to say that 1 5 corporate responsibility was a factor in the 1 6 decision whether to approve a dielectric 17 customer for shipment of PCBs? 1 8 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: Object as to 1 9 the form of the question. 2 0 A . Yes, the corporate responsibility 2 1 of the customer's organization, yes. And in 2 2 fact, Monsanto perceived that by entering 23 this program and requiring a very high 2 4 official to sign off, was perceived to be the 2 5 best way to get the attention of those in GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 217 WATER PCB-SD0000070721 1 authority so that they understood the 2 situation and could assign the necessary 3 resources, whether it be, people, 4 consultants , money, whatever , to see that it 5 was done properly, rather than leave it up to 6 Monsanto salesmen calling on the purchasing 7 agent at a local plant and trying to do all 8 of the persuasion at that level. 9 BY MS. SOBEL: 1 0 Q. When you refer to "this program," 11 what exactly are you referring to? 1 2 A. I'm talking about the proper 1 3 handling, use, disposal of PCBs in dielectric 1 4 use in closed systems to avoid entering into 1 5 the environment. I think that's the best set 1 6 of words I can find to describe this. 17 Q. Was there anyrequirement that 1 8 dielectric customers holdinsurance coverage? 1 9 A. The requirement wasn't really 2 0 aimed at insurance, it was aimed at financial 21 wherewithal to withstand any high-cost 2 2 program that might result from some incident 2 3 that create a problem. Whether it was done 2 4 from insurance coverage or other means was up 2 5 to the customer to decide. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 2 18 WATER PCB-SD0000070722 1 Q. Do you know how financial 2 responsibility was assessed for Universal? 3 A. I do not. 4 Q. Do you know if Universal ever 5 provided Monsanto with insurance 6 certificates? 7 A. They provided Monsanto with some 8 documents which , as I recall , certified that 9 a n appropriate insurance coverage was 1 0 available . 11 MS. SOBEL: I'm going to ask the 1 2 court reporter to mark this as Exhibit 32. 1 3 (Papageorge Deposition 1 4 Exhibit 32 marked for 1 5 identification. ) 1 6 MR. DAVIDSON: Let me interject at 17 this point that we have no objection to being 1 8 bound by the terms of the confidentiality 1 9 order as you've submitted. 2 0 MS. SOBEL: Okay. If you would 2 1 like to go ahead and sign that, then. 2 2 MR. DAVIDSON: Is there a 2 3 a r place? 2 4 MS . SOBEL : I think it's the last 2 5 page. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 2 19 WATER PCB-SD0000070723 1 MR. DAVIDSON: This is the order 2 itself, isn't it? 3 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: Mm-hmm, yes. 4 MS . SOBEL: Yes . 5 THE WITNESS: Should we use the 6 date on this, or -- 7 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER : Just date it 8 today . 9 MR. DAVIDSON: No, it says, 1 0 "Restrictions of the ordered date at" so and 11 so." 1 2 MS . SOBEL: Oh, okay. 1 3 MR. DAVIDSON: December 13, 1990. 1 4 Should I put that in there, or you 1 5 want to put it in there? 1 6 MS. SOBEL: That's okay, you can 17 put it in. 1 8 THE WITNE S S : 1 9 9 0 ? 1 9 MR . DAVIDSON : Yes. 20 MR . DAVIDSON : And I would 2 1 appr eciate if you would send us back, send us 2 2 a copy of this 2 3 MS . SOBEL: Be happy to. You'll 2 4 probably get the original back with Mr. 2 5 Papageorge's deposition. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 220 WATER PCB-SD0000070724 1 MR. DAVIDSON: Okay. 2 MS. SOBEL: But if you'd like to, 3 I'd be h appy to get you a n extra copy of it. 4 MR. DAVIDSON: That'll be fine. 5 BY MS. SOBEL: 6 Q. Mr. Papageorge, I refer you now 7 to -- 8 MS. SOBEL: Have you marked the 9 exhibit? Would you pass that to the witness, 1 0 please? 11 BY MS. SOBEL: 1 2 Q. Mr. Papageorge, I ask you to look 1 3 at Exhibit 32, which is marked for 1 4 identification purposes and is, bears the 1 5 production numbers FRL 3116, 3112, 3104, 1 6 3102, 3100, 3098, 3085. 1 7 Mr. Papageorge, have you ever seen 1 8 these certificates of insurance before? 1 9 A. I saw these for the first time 2 0 yesterday afternoon. 2 1 Q. Have you ever -- do you know why 2 2 Monsanto would require certificates of 2 3 insurance from its customers? 2 4 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: Objection. 2 5 BY MS. SOBEL: GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 221 WATER PCB-SD0000070725 1 Q. Do you know if Monsanto required 2 certificates of insurance from its customers? 3 A. It required these certificates to 4 support the financial wherewithal of the 5 customer desiring to purchase PCB dielectric 6 fluids. 7 Q. So this would be proof of what you 8 considered proper financial responsibility? 9 A. That was the intent. 1 0 Q. On the part of Monsanto? 1 1 A. On the part of Monsanto. 1 2 Q. Do you recognize the signature on 1 3 document bearing FRL 3116? That's the first 1 4 page of the exhibit, in the bottom left-hand 1 5 corner? 1 6 A. This one marked "Approved 1/25, 17 R. B. Chapman." 1 8 Q. Do you know who that is? 1 9 A. This is Monsanto's -- I confess I 2 0 don' t know his official title . He was 21 Monsanto's individual who concerned himself 2 2 with insurance. 2 3 Q. Mr. Papageorge, can you tell me 2 4 who this document was issued to? 2 5 A . Mr. Bergen up above? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 222 I WATER PCB-SD0000070726 1 Q . Mm-hmm. 2 A. It's Howard Bergen, who was the 3 director of this Special Products Group in 4 Monsanto. 5 Q . Can you tell me why he would 6 receive these certificates of insurance? 7 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: Objection. 8 A . Well, he was the individual within 9 Monsanto held responsible for the -- for the 1 0 manufacture, sale of PCBs , and it was up t o 11 him to see that they were sold under the 1 2 conditions that were finally considered to be 1 3 desirable. 1 4 BY MS. SOBEL: 1 5 Q. Do you know who would issue such 1 6 certificates of insurance, or whether 1 7 Monsanto required any particular entity to 1 8 issue such certificates? 1 9 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: Object as to 2 0 the form. 2 1 A. Are you talking about the, say, an 2 2 insurance c omp any issuing them? 2 3 BY MS. SOBEL: 2 4 Q . Yes. 2 5 A. Mons an to had nothing to do with GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 223 WATER PCB-SD0000070727 1 that. They left it up to the customers to 2 come forth with some evidence of some kind of 3 coverage, and this is the way Universal did 4 it . 5 Q . Was there any requirement by 6 Mons anto that certificates of insurance such 7 a s this would be issued directly by the 8 insurance company? 9 A. Not that I'm aware of. 1 0 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: Okay, you 11 can set that aside. 12 MS. SOBEL: I'll mark this for 1 3 identification purposesas Exhibit 33. 1 4 (Papageorge Deposition 15 Exhibit33 marked for 1 6 identification.) 1 7 MS. SOBEL: I'll ask you to review 1 8 that, again. 1 9 (Witness peruses said 2 0 document.) 2 1 MS . SOBEL: For identification 2 2 purpo s e s , Exhibit 3 3 is a letter from 2 3 Universal Manufacturing to the State of 2 4 Connecticut, dated March 29th, 1976. 2 5 BY MS. SOBEL: GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 224 WATER PCB-SD0000070728 1 Q . And I'm specifically going to talk 2 to you about page 2 of that exhibit, which I 3 refer to a sBates stamp number 24 6 3 in the 4 bottom, which are subtitled "Sources of PCB 5 Waste." 6 (Witness peruses said 7 document.) 8 A. I have reviewed the exhibit. 9 Q. Mr. Papageorge, are you aware of 1 0 any attempts by Universal to recycle PCBs? 1 1 A. I was aware, yes. They attempted 12 totake any PCBs that were contaminated in 13 some way and to regenerate them, if that's 1 4 the right word, for use in capacitors. 1 5 Q. Do you know if it was economically 1 6 desirable to recycle PCBs? 17 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: Object as to 1 8 the form of the question. 1 9 A. Yes, certainly. 2 0 BY MS. SOBEL: 21 Q . Would it be economically 2 2 undesirable to allow them to escape into the 2 3 environment? 2 4 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: Object as to 2 5 the form of the question. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 225 WATER PCB-SD0000070729 1 A . Well, the amount, of course, will 2 determine the e conomic s . Generally , it's 3 wiser and more economical to salvage and use. 4 BY MS. SOBEL: 5 Q. Are you aware of any efforts by 6 the electrical indus try to recycle PCBs? 7 A . Certainly, this was a practice of 8 long s tanding back in the Forties , and 9 Fifties , Sixties , before the environmental 1 0 issue ever came up . 11 Q Did you ever discuss recycling 1 2 with anyone a t , a t Universal? 1 3 A. I don't recall any specific 1 4 instance where we sat down and talked about 15 recycling and how to do it. I just don't 1 6 recall any such discussion. 17 Q . Do you know ifanyone a t Monsanto 1 8 would have had the opportunity to discuss 1 9 that process? 2 0 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: I'll object 2 1 a s to the form of the question. 2 2 A . The recycling and treating of PCB 2 3 fluids for recycling was a subject of 2 4 longstanding and almost a standard type of 2 5 discussion was held by Monsanto's field GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 226 WATER PCB-SD0000070730 1 salesmen, and if the questions became more 2 technical than the field salesman was 3 qualified to handle, it would be referred to 4 Monsanto's Dr. Munch in the research 5 1abor atory. 6 BY MS. SOBEL: 7 Q. Do you know if any such 8 discussions took place between anyone at 9 Universal and anyone at Monsanto? 1 0 A . Not personally. 1 X 0 . Mr. Papageorge, do you r e c a 11 your 1 2 testimony earlier about the loss o f P CB s i n 1 3 the vacuum pumps at the very end o f M r . 1 4 Schwartz- Leeper's examination ? 1 5 A . Yes, I do. 1 6 Q . Okay, do you know o f any measures 17 that were taken by Universal t o prevent such 1 8 a loss? 1 9 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: Objection as 2 0 to form. Can you put a time on it? 2 1 BY MS. SOBEL: 2 2 Q . During any time that you had 2 3 discussions with anyone at Universal. 2 4 A. All I recall is that the people 2 5 from Universal were addressing this subject . GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS S OURI 2 27 WATER PCB-SD0000070731 1 I do not know what was finally done 2 Q. Do you recall your testimony about 3 Mr. Stewart's visits to the site be tween 1972 4 and 1974 to the Bridgeport site? 5 A. I recall a discussion, but I 6 don't -- those dates, in the period when Mr. 7 Stewart was involved in this program, I don't 8 know which of those dates fit the Universal 9 sites. It was sometime within that period. 1 0 Q. Did he ever communicate to you any 11 efforts that were being taken on behalf of 1 2 Universal to mitigate any loss of PCBs from 1 3 vacuum pumps? 1 4 A . No . 1 5 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: Object as to 1 6 the form of the question. Let's make sure 1 7 that the record recorded your answer. 1 8 A . No . 1 9 BY MS . SOBEL : 2 0 Q Do you recall your testimony about 2 1 Mr . Clark ' s being more concerned about losses 2 2 from vacuum pump s than water losses? 2 3 A . Yes, I d o . 2 4 Q Do you know of any efforts that 2 5 were being taken or any concern by Universal GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 228 WATER PCB-SD0000070732 1 about such losses? 2 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER : Are you 3 talking now just about concern? 4 MS. SOBEL: Well, let's try 5 concern first . 6 A. I believe I mentioned there was 7 concern about this loss, there were efforts 8 underway a t this plant to address this 9 situation . I do not know personally what 1 0 they eventually ended up with in terms of 11 controlling those losses. 1 2 BY MS. SOBEL: 1 3 Q. Going back to your testimony 1 4 earlier about the stains that you observed on 1 5 the floor at the plant when you visited the 1 6 Bridgeport site, do you recall any 1 7 discussions about those stains? 1 8 A . A t the plant , yes. 1 9 Q . And do you recall any efforts that 2 0 were undertaken by Universal to reduce the 2 1 existence of such stains? 2 2 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: Are you 2 3 talking about removing the stains, 2 4 themselves? 2 5 MS. SOBEL: I believe the que s tion GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST . LOUIS , MIS S OUR I 229 WATER PCB-SD0000070733 1 was to reduce the existence of such stains. 2 BY MS. SOBEL: 3 Q . Do you need me to clarify that? 4 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: I object to 5 the form of the question. It's vague and 6 ambiguous. 7 A. I recall the observation of the 8 stains. I recall the -- there was more than 9 one stain, incidentally. I recall the 1 0 discussion I held with them, saying that 1 1 "These stains indicate that you have some 1 2 material that you had some material get away 13 from you. I would suggest you review your 1 4 process and try to contain these, even if you 1 5 have to put a drip pan under them," and then 1 6 I went on to share with them the kinds of 1 7 things we have done at Monsanto, like putting 1 8 funnels under the places and having them 1 9 collect thematerial in buckets, if 2 0 necessary, or building curbs around the area 2 1 so it doesn't get away and into the sewers. 2 2 I do know personally that they 2 3 took this quite seriously. I was informed 2 4 later by Mr. Ran d y Graham, Monsanto' s field 2 5 salesman who served as my eyes and ears, in a GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS,MIS S OURI 230 WATER PCB-SD0000070734 1 way, he reported back that the plant was 2 seriously trying to cope with this, but I 3 cannot tell you exactly what was finally 4 done, because I was removed from that 5 assignment and I never h e a rd the end of that 6 effort . 7 BY MS. SOBEL: 8 Q . Okay, how would you describe the 9 attitude of management with respect to 1 0 preventing such -- preventing any leakage of 11 PCBs during the manufacturing process? 1 2 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: Objection a s 1 3 to the form of that question. 1 4 A. I would describe it a s very 1 5 concerned. Comparing the whole set of 1 6 customers, I would suggest that the 17 management at Universal was among the leaders 1 8 in taking this as a serious responsibility. 1 9 Their cooperation with Monsanto was 2 0 excellent. They attended all the sessions 2 1 they could; they'd participate in all the 2 2 committees. I don't know how else to say it 2 3 except that overall , it was a n excellent 2 4 cus tomer to work with. 2 5 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: Can we set GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 231 WATER PCB-SD0000070735 1 33 aside , or are we going to use it? 2 MS. SOBEL: No, you can set that 3 aside . 4 BY MS. SOBEL: 5 Q . In the course of your dealings 6 with the management of Universal or Mr. Ray 7 Clark, how would you describe Universal's 8 efforts to abide by federal or state 9 regulations regarding PCBs? 10 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: Object to 1 1 the form of that question. 1 2 A. I would say it was totally 13 responsive, cooperative, and they were also 1 4 attempting to offer suggestions as guidance 1 5 to those in government who were not familiar 1 6 withPCBs. 17 BY MS. SOBEL: 1 8 Q. Are you aware of any, any 1 9 instances where Universal did not abide by 2 0 federal or state regulations? I'm just 2 1 talking about yourpersonal knowledge, now. 2 2 A. Yeah, my personal knowledge, I'm 2 3 not aware of anything like that. 2 4 MS. SOBEL: I ask the court 2 5 reporter to mark this a s Exhibit 3 4 . GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS,MISSOURI 232 WATER PCB-SD0000070736 1 (Papageorge Deposition 2 Exhibit 3 4 marked for 3 identification.) 4 MS. SOBEL: We've marked Exhibit 5 3 4 for identification purposes . This 6 document is, bears the production numbers 7 FRL 3359, consecutively through 3363. 8 BY MS . SOBEL : 9 Q. Please review this document. When 1 0 you've done, let me know. 11 (Witness peruses said 1 2 document.) 1 3 A. I have reviewed the document. 1 4 BY MS. SOBEL: 1 5 Q. Mr. Papageorge, do you know who -- 1 6 do you see where on the first page of this 1 7 document , the name 0. E. D o1in appears , 1 8 "Reported by 0 . E . Dolin''? 1 9 A. Ido. 2 0 Q. Do you know who 0. E. D o1in is? 2 1 A. Yes. A t that time, Mr. D o1in was 2 2 the individual in charge of the analytical 2 3 laboratory a t the Annis ton Plant at 2 4 Monsanto -- Anniston, Alabama, plant of 2 5 Monsanto. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 233 WATER PCB-SD0000070737 1 Q Document 3359, which is the 2 beginning of Exhibit 3 4 , is titled on top a 3 trip report . Can you explain what trip 4 report , do you know what a trip report is? 5 A. I believe I do. This is a report 6 of a trip made by three Monsanto employees 7 from the Anniston, Alabama, plant, to several 8 customers. One of those customers was 9 Electronic Components company. 1 0 Q. Do you know what such a visit 11 would entail? 1 2 A. I'm sorry. 13 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: Objection as 1 4 to the form of the question. 1 5 BY MS. SOBEL: 1 6 Q. I said do you know what such a 17 visit would entail by the Monsanto officials? 18 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: Calls for 1 9 speculation. 2 0 A. In this particular trip, from the 21 makeup of the team that visited, had to do 2 2 with quality of the material Monsanto was 2 3 shipping to Electronic Components. 2 4 BY MS. SOBEL: 2 5 Q. Is there a difference between a GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 234 WATER PCB-SD0000070738 1 trip report and a call report? 2 A. Yes, a t Monsanto, the expression 3 "Call report" is reserved for the sales 4 people , whereas "trip report" applies to the 5 rest of us, whatever our jobs might be. 6 Q. On something that would be 7 referred to as a call report, what kind of 8 visit is that? 9 A. Oh, it can vary considerably. 1 0 Sometimes it's to introduce a new Monsanto 11 salesman. Sometimes it's to introduce a new 1 2 product and leave some samples and brochures. 1 3 Other times, it's just a matter of dropping 1 4 by and asking how are things going, or 1 5 another reason might well be "We are unhappy 1 6 to inform you that we're going to have to 17 increase the price" or "We'd like to 1 8 negotiate some conditions for the future in 1 9 terms of what you can buy or intend to buy, 2 0 and we suggest you buy it in tank car lots 2 1 instead of drums." Any subject whatever 2 2 could be covered by those kinds of reports or 2 3 calls . 2 4 Q. When you say "any subject," would 2 5 that also include observing the manufacturing GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 235 WATER PCB-SD0000070739 1 processes? 2 A. In those situations where our 3 salesmen are permitted by the cus tomer to go 4 into the plant and observe , yes. That 5 doesn't often happen, but it would -- it 6 could cover that, yes. 7 Q. Do you know ifUniversal ever 8 allowed Monsanto officials or employees to 9 visit the inside of the plant? 1 0 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: I'll object. 11 He's testifying he visited the Bridgeport 1 2 plant where he saw the stains of the PCB oil 1 3 on the floor. 1 4 BY MS. SOBEL: 1 5 Q. You can answer the question. 1 6 A. I can speak from my personal 1 7 experience, yes, I was invited to go through. 1 8 I am aware that our field salesman, Mr. 1 9 Randall Graham, on occasion, went through the 2 0 plant. I cannot speak for any others. 2 1 Q. Do you know about Mr.Bryant? 2 2 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: Object as to 2 3 the form of the question. 2 4 BY MS. SOBEL: 2 5 Q . Do you know whether Mr. Bryant GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 236 WATER PCB-SD0000070740 1 visited the plant? 2 A. I know he visited the plant . I 3 can't, I do not recall if he went into the 4 working area. 5 Q. On the last page of Exhibit 34, 6 which is -- which bears Bates stamp number 7 FRL 3363, I call your attention to the first 8 paragraph, which states, "Electronic 9 Components has made tremendous improvements 1 0 in facilities and personnel during past two 11 years." Do you have any understanding of 1 2 what that means? 1 3 A . No , I do not. That would be from 14 '63 to '65. I cannot speak for that per i o d . 15 MS . SOBEL: Okay. I '11 have the 1 6 court reporter mark this as Exhibit 35. 1 7 (Papageorge Deposition 1 8 Exhibit 35 marked for 1 9 identification. ) 2 0 MS. SOBEL: Exhibit 35 bears the 2 1 production numbe r s FRL 2 3 4 5 through 2 3 4 6 and 2 2 a Monsanto document bearing the title "Call 23 Report, Organic Division." 2 4 (Witness peruses said 2 5 document . ) GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS S OUR I 237 WATER PCB-SD0000070741 1 A . I have reviewed the exhibit. 2 BY MS. SOBEL: 3 Q. Mr. Papageorge, I call your 4 attention to the top portion of the exhibit 5 which bears the date of call as 8/13/71? 6 A . I see it. 7 Q . Have you ever seen this document 8 before? 9 A. I don't recall seeing this. 1 0 Q. Do you know which division of 11 Electronic Components thisdocument refers 1 2 to? 1 3 A. Oh, I don't know any of the 1 4 divisions of Electronic Components. 1 5 Q. I meant which site. 1 6 A. Which site? Yeah, the Bridgeport, 1 7 Connecticut, as shown in the second line at 1 8 the top. 1 9 Q. And does it reflect what salesman, 2 0 what Monsanto salesman visited the site? 2 1 A . Yes, Mr. J. G . Bryant, from the 2 2 Marketing Department, made that visit. 2 3 0 Do you know i f Mr. Bryant was 2 4 instructed by Monsanto t o observe any safety 2 5 problems at a plant? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 238 WATER PCB-SD0000070742 1 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: Object as to 2 the form of the question. 3 A. In his assignment a s the technical 4 staff member in St. Louis, assigned to the 5 Electrical Fluid Marketing Group and with the 6 PCB environmental issue very much in the 7 forefront, Mr. Bryant was inf ormed that 8 whenever his duties involved traveling to a 9 customer's plant, to arrange if he could to 1 0 go through the plant, to the operating units 1 1 and make observations regarding the care and 1 2 handling of PCBs. 1 3 BY MS. SOBEL: 1 4 Q. And would he record his 1 5 impressions about the care and handling of 1 6 PCBs ? 17 A. Generally, Mr. Bryant would record 1 8 it, yes. 1 9 Q. Okay, I'd like to refer you to the 2 0 fifth-to-1 ast sentence, line from the bottom 21 of page 2345, where it says, "Toward the 22 facilities in the plants, it's extremely 2 3 clean, free of Aroclor spillage, et cetera." 2 4 Did you ever discuss with Mr. 2 5 Bryant his tour of the facilities? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 239 WATER PCB-SD0000070743 1 A. Yes, I had a discussion with Mr. 2 Bryant before he even -- this is the first 3 time I've seen the written report, but I -- 4 when he returned from his trips, he'd drop by 5 and we'd talk, and that's the way I kept up 6 with what was going on. 7 Q. Do you recall what was said to you 8 during that discussion? 9 A. Yes, the general impression was 1 0 that "They're doing a great job and the plant 11 is really clean, " "Squeaky clean" or some 1 2 such words that he used. 1 3 MS. SOBEL: I'm done with that 1 4 exhibit. You can put that aside. 1 5 BY MS. SOBEL: 1 6 Q. Mr. Papageorge, did you ever visit 17 the Universal T o t o w a n site in T o t o w a n, New 1 8 Jersey? 1 9 A . No, I didn't. 2 0 Q. Did you ever have discussions with 2 1 anyone a tMonsanto who did tour the T o t o w a n, 2 2 New Jersey, Universal site? 2 3 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: I'll obj ect 2 4 a s to the entire line of questioning 2 5 concerning the T o t o w a n site, since Mr. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 240 WATER PCB-SD0000070744 1 Nardolilli has represented on the record that 2 this claim relates to one site, and that ' s 3 the Bridgeport site. I don't see that this 4 has any relevance . 5 MS. SOBEL: So noted. 6 A. I had discussions with Monsanto 7 people , but I cannot recall the circumstances 8 or the dates , but I was aware of the site and 9 I was aware in general that the attitude that 1 0 I was aware of exhibited at the Bridgeport 1 1 plant was also shown at the New Jersey site. 1 2 I felt comfortable with what I heard, is what 1 3 it amounts to. 1 4 BY MS. SOBEL: 1 5 Q . Do you recall any discussions 1 6 describing the facilities at Totowan? 17 MR . SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: Same 1 8 objection. 1 9 A . No . 2 0 MS . SOBEL: Mark this a s Exhibit 2 1 36, please. 2 2 (Papageorge Deposition 2 3 Exhibit 3 6 marked for 2 4 identification . ) 2 5 MS. SOBEL: For identification GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 241 WATER PCB-SD0000070745 1 purposes , Exhibit 3 6 bears the production 2 numbers FRL 2294 through 2300. 3 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: And little 4 else. 5 MS . SOBEL: Pardon? 6 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: And little 7 else 8 (Witness peruses said 9 document.) 1 0 A. I have reviewed the document. 11 BY MS . SOBEL : 1 2 Q. Have you ever seen this document 1 3 before, Mr. Papageorge? 1 4 A. I saw it yesterday afternoon. 1 5 Q. Do you know what it is? 1 6 A. I believe I do. This appears to 17 be a copy of a summary of the various 1 8 dielectric customers in one- or two-paragraph 1 9 form, in an attempt to bring the management 2 0 up-to-date on what's going on out in the 2 1 field. At least, this is the kind of thing I 22 recall seeing in the past. This particular 2 3 document is not dated, so I can't tell what 2 4 period it covers. 2 5 Q. Do you know who prepared this GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 242 WATER PCB-SD0000070746 1 document? 2 A. I'm sorry? 3 Q. Do you know who prepared this 4 document, drafted it? 5 A. The contributions came from each 6 of the regional offices, and as I recall, an 7 individual like Mr. Bryant would have acted 8 as editor, in a scissors-and-paste approach 9 and put it all together. 1 0 Q. If you turn to page 2298 of the 1 1 exhibit -- 1 2 A. I have it. 1 3 Q -- at the top , there' s a 1 4 handwritten two words. 1 5 A . I see that. 1 6 Q Is tha t J ame s Bryant? 1 7 A . That's James Bryant , yes. 1 8 Q Do you know who wrote that? 1 9 A . I do not. 2 0 Q . Would he have had res ponsibility 2 1 for this portion of this exhibit 2 2 MR. SCHWARTZ- LEEPER: Objection 2 3 to form o f the question and lack o f 2 4 foundation. 2 5 A . I would be guessing. I don't GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 24 3 WATER PCB-SD0000070747 1 know. 2 BY MS. SOBEL: 3 Q . Mr. P apageorge , I refer your 4 attention to the second sentence of the first 5 paragraph, the only paragraph , which states 6 that "The Bridgeport plant is one of the 7 cleanest regard" -- "re PCB problem in 8 industry. " Do you have any unders tanding of 9 what that means? 1 0 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: Objection; 11 calls for sheer speculation. 1 2 A . Well, the reports I was getting 1 3 regarding all of our customers led me to 1 4 place the Bridgeport site as one of the best 1 5 in terms of responding to the PCB 1 6 environmental issue and getting their house 1 7 in order, and I don't know how else to say 1 8 it. They were better than average. 1 9 BY MS. SOBEL: 2 0 Q Do you recall earlier in your 2 1 tes timony that you were in charge of, your -- 2 2 you had a title a t some point concerning 2 3 product acceptability? 24 A . Yes . 2 5 Q . Can you tell me again what years GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 244 WATER PCB-SD0000070748 1 that was, approximately? 2 A. I had that title from 1973 to 3 1977 . 4 Q. And during that time, was 5 information regarding PCBs channeled through 6 you? 7 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: I'll object 8 a s to the form of the question. 9 A . Information regarding PCBs was 1 0 channeled through me from seventy -- with 11 that title from ' 7 3 through February 'IS. 1 2 BY MS . SOBEL : 1 3 Q. Mr. Papageorge, are you aware of 1 4 any relationship between Monsanto and 1 5 Travelers? 1 6 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: Object as to 1 7 the form of that question. 1 8 A. I'm only peripherally aware that 19 at times, Travelers Insurance Company was 2 0 mentioned as being somehow associated with 2 1 Monsanto. I do not know details. 22 BY MS. SOBEL: 23 Q. During your tenure in the product 2 4 acceptability area, did you ever provide any 2 5 information regarding PCBs to Travelers , to GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 245 WATER PCB-SD0000070749 1 anyone a t Travelers? 2 A. I did not personally, no. 3 Q. Do you know if anyone a t Monsanto 4 ever provided information regarding PCBs to 5 anyone a t Travelers? 6 A. I don't personally know that. All 7 I know is that Mr. Chapman, who was the 8 Monsanto individual concerned with insurance 9 contacts, would periodically drop by and get 1 0 a tutorial from me regarding the PCB 11 situation. I have no way of knowing what he 1 2 did with that information, but he would come 1 3 by, we'd talk and I'd give him documents, 1 4 handouts, brochures, and that's as close as I 1 5 got to the insurance situation. 1 6 Q. Would this information that you 17 gave to Mr. Chapman -- what kind of, what 1 8 kind of information would it include? 1 9 A. Oh, such things as the status of 2 0 Monsanto's analytical capabilities and 2 1 methodologies, the status of government 22 regulations and government activities, the 2 3 results of animal testing, toxicity testing, 2 4 the efforts on the part of Monsanto to 2 5 control losses a t its plants of PCBs, what GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 246 WATER PCB-SD0000070750 1 the producers of PCBs throughout the world 2 were doing; just aboutevery facet that one 3 could think of was covered. 4 MS. S 0 B E L : I ask the cour t 5 reporter to mark this a s Exhibit 3 7 . 6 (Papageorge Deposition 7 Exhibit 3 7 marked for 8 identification . ) 9 MS.SOBEL: For identification 1 0 purposes, Exhibit 37 bears the production 11 numbers TT 20515 through 20516 and is marked 1 2 as a Travelers memorandum dated January 12th, 1 3 1 9 7 7. 1 4 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: For the 1 5 record, I will object to any examination 1 6 concerning this exhibit. One, as I had 1 7 indicated before, as being beyond the scope 18 of direct: Two, as being irrelevant to the 1 9 issues raised in this case. 2 0 (Witness peruses said 2 1 document.) 2 2 A. I have read the exhibit. 2 3 BY MS. SOBEL: 2 4 Q. Mr. Papageorge, have you ever seen 2 5 this document before? GORE REPORTING COMPANY -ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 247 WATER PCB-SD0000070751 1 A . I have not. 2 Q. Do you know the name Frank 3 Catudal, C-a-t-u-d-a-1, that appears on page 4 20516 of this document? 5 A. I do not. 6 Q. Mr. Papageorge, can I refer your 7 attention to the first paragraph on page 8 20515? There's a publication in quotation 9 marks, "The Generator," Volume 4, Number 1, 1 0 issued February of 1975. Have you ever heard 11 of that publication? 1 2 A. I have not. 1 3 Q. Do you have any understanding of 1 4 how Travelers could obtain such information 1 5 regarding PCBs? 1 6 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: I will 1 7 object as to the form of the question. I'll 1 8 also object as to the complete lack of 1 9 foundation for the question. 2 0 A. Which, which information? 2 1 BY MS. SOBEL: 2 2 Q. Any of the information related to 2 3 PCBs in this memorandum. 2 4 A. In this memo. 2 5 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: I'll object GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 248 WATER PCB-SD0000070752 1 a s to the form of the question. 2 A. I would have no idea how -- there 3 are so many ways one could do it, I don ' t 4 know how, what approach they used. 5 MS. SOBEL: Okay, let's set that 6 aside . 7 BY MS. SOBEL: 8 Q. Mr. Papageorge, I'm going to refer 9 back to Exhibit 2. 1 0 A. I have it. 1 1 Q. Earlier, you testified that Mr. 1 2 Clark, that the response that you were aware 1 3 of from Universal to this letter was that Mr. 1 4 Clark called Monsanto or called a Monsanto 1 5 representative to inquire regarding more 1 6 details. Do you know what kind of dialogue 17 was prompted by this letter between Monsanto 1 8 and Universal? 1 9 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: Object as to 2 0 the form of that question. 2 1 A . I can share with you my 2 2 understanding. 2 3 BY MS . SOBEL : 2 4 Q . I'm looking for the purpose of, of 2 5 an exchange between Universal and Monsanto at GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 249 WATER PCB-SD0000070753 1 that time. 2 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: Object as to 3 the lack of foundation, as well a s t o form. 4 A . The reaction was one of o f , are 5 the PCBs used in capacitors being f ound? If 6 not, why not? How do you explain this 7 difference? What is the government doing? " 8 These kinds of questions were being asked. 9 "What do you know about the harm to these 1 0 environmental birds, and seals," and whatever 11 else was being reported atthe time. That's 1 2 the kind of dialogue that took place, and it 1 3 was not unique to Universal. Everybody had 1 4 essentially the same kind of questions. 1 5 BY MS. SOBEL: 1 6 Q. So Universal responded promptly to 17 this letter? 1 8 A. Oh, yes. Sure. Mr. Clark was a 1 9 leader in this. 2 0 Q . Referring back to Exhibit 6 -- 2 1 A . I have it. 2 2 MS. SOBEL: -- excuse me. Is 2 3 Exhibit 7 -- is this Exhibit 7 ? 24 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: Yes. 25 MS. SOBEL: Okay, I meant Exhibit GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MIS S OURI 250 WATER PCB-SD0000070754 1 7 . I apologize. 2 A. I have it. 3 BY MS. SOBEL: 4 Q. My question goes to the PCB 5 bulletin, whether -- I know there was the 6 draft copy. Any final version is included in 7 my question, also. You stated earlier that 8 you reviewed these kind of bulletins, 9 Monsanto reviewed these kind of bulletins for 1 0 more than half a day at the Universal 11 Bridgeport plant. Do you recall that 1 2 testimony? 1 3 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: Object as to 1 4 the form of the question because this 1 5 document is made in 1971. I believe he 1 6 testified that he visited the Bridgeport 1 7 plant in 1970. 1 8 BY MS. SOBEL: 1 9 Q. Do you recall your testimony 2 0 earlier about guidelines being discussed at 2 1 the Bridgeport plant? 2 2 A. I may have used the word 2 3 "guidelines," but I don't know that they 2 4 referred to written guidelines. In 1970, 2 5 when I visited the Bridgeport site, there GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 251 WATER PCB-SD0000070755 1 were no such guidelines available . All I 2 could do with them is share Mons anto's 3 approaches and experiences, and a s I 4 indicated, we hoped that Mons anto experience 5 might be helpful to their situation. 6 Q. Around the time of July 1971, when 7 these guidelines were shared with Mons an to 8 customers -- 9 A. Mm-hmm, yes. 1 0 Q. -- do you recall what the response 11 was by anyone at Universal? 1 2 A. I can only describe the response 13 of being they were thankful, appreciative, 1 4 and they were going to use it to review what 1 5 they had done and what they proposed to do, 1 6 and this was through Mr. Clark, and I 17 suggested that if they had any other ideas 1 8 that we didn't include, I would certainly 1 9 appreciate hearing from them so that we could 2 0 perhaps include it in revisions of this 21 document, to share with others . 2 2 Q. Mr. Papageorge, earlier you 2 3 testified that you visited many capacitor 2 4 plants . 2 5 A . Several . GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 252 WATER PCB-SD0000070756 1 Q. Several ; okay. Did you have the 2 opportunity to observe the manufacturing 3 processes a t any of these capacitor plants? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Did you ever observe any other, 6 any stains similar to the ones youobserved 7 at the Bridgeport site at any other 8 manufacturing facilities? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Do yourecallhow many sites had 11 such stains? 1 2 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: Object as to 1 3 relevance 1 4 A. Every site that I saw had stains: 1 5 Some worse and some better. I would describe 1 6 the Bridgeport, Connecticut, Universal site 1 7 as average or a little above average in terms 1 8 of cleanliness, if I could use that word. 1 9 Like I said, there were some that were much 2 0 much worse and some that were better, and the 2 1 better ones, frankly, were the new plants . 2 2 They had a n advantage in being new. 2 3 BY MS. SOBEL: 2 4 Q. I'm going to refer you to Exhibit 2 5 10, page 3214 of that exhibit. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 253 WATER PCB-SD0000070757 1 A . I have it. 2 Q. Excus e me, 3 2 13; I'm sorry. 3 Earlier , Mr. Schwartz-Leeper was 4 asking you questions about the third 5 paragraph on that page. 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. "They did decide a more" -- which 8 states that "They did decide a more pressing 9 pollution problem for them was the vacuum 1 0 diffusion pump which uses Aroclor 1254 as 11 seal." When you testified, you testified 1 2 earlier you used different words than 1 3 "pollution problem." I don't know if you 1 4 recall that, but I'll refresh your 1 5 recollection, you used the word "PCB 1 6 environmental issues." Is there a 1 7 distinction in your mind between 1 8 environmental issues and environmental 1 9 problems? 2 0 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: I'll object. 21 He did not author this document. To the 2 2 extent you are asking him to compare what 2 3 somebody else wrote and what somebody else 2 4 meant when they wrote something in this 2 5 document to what, to the term he used in GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 254 WATER PCB-SD0000070758 1 testifying today, I don't think you've 2 established any foundation whatsoever for 3 making that comparison in the first place. 4 In the second place, I think you are calling 5 upon him to speculate with respect to the 6 language that appears in this document and a s 7 your question is phrased . 8 MS. S 0 B E L: I was ques tioning him 9 about his own words . 1 0 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: Well, no, 11 you are asking him about words that appear in 1 2 this document in addition to his words. 1 3 MS. SOBEL : David , I 'm asking him 1 4 when he used the words "environmental issue, " 1 5 is that your understanding of how the phrase 16 is used? 17 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: I'll object 1 8 as to the form of the question. 1 9 A. When I use the expression 2 0 "environmental issue," means the, the release 2 1 of a n industrial chemical PCBs such that it 2 2 is found in the environment and the question 2 3 then becomes one of why is it there , what 2 4 harm is it doing, e t cetera . I don't know 25 how to respond to your question other than GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 255 WATER PCB-SD0000070759 1 that. The reference to pollution situation 2 that we discussed earlier was in reference to 3 Mr. Randall Graham's use of that expression 4 to describe the broad PCB environmental 5 issue, and that' s why I described it as, a s a 6 PCB environmental issue. 7 BY MS. SOBEL: 8 Q. Okay, you've cleared it upfor me. 9 Thank you. 1 0 Mr. Papageorge, were you at all 11 involved in the negotiation of the special 1 2 undertaking that was discussed in Exhibit 12? 1 3 A . No . 1 4 Q. Do you recall what Exhibit 12 was? 1 5 A. It's the special undertaking 16 document. I was neverinvolved with any of 1 7 these . 1 8 MS. SOBEL: Okay, that's all I 1 9 have. 2 0 MS. MATRE: No questions. 21 MR. S CHWARTZ-LEEPER: I'll take 2 2 just a few 2 3 FURTHER EXAMINATION 2 4 BY MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: 2 5 Q. Mr. Papageorge, did you ever speak GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 256 WATER PCB-SD0000070760 1 to Travelers to determine whe ther or not 2 Universal Manufacturing Corporation had any 3 insurance? 4 A . No, sir. 5 Q . Did you ever speak to anyone at 6 Travelers concerning anything that was marked 7 a s Exhibit Numbe r 32? 8 A. I never spoke to Travelers on any 9 matter, so I don't know what 32 covers. No, 1 0 no, I did not speak to any -- 1 1 Q. Take a look at Exhibit 32, if you 1 2 would for just a moment. Do you see the 1 3 referenc e -- let's start with the first page 1 4 Do you s e e the reference under the column 1 5 labeled " P olicy Number" o n the right half of 1 6 the page r about a third o f the way down? 17 A. I see a series of letters and 1 8 numbers. 1 9 Q. Do you know what those letters and 2 0 numbers refer to? 2 1 A. No, I don't. 2 2 Q. Did you ever see any Travelers 2 3 insurance policies issued to Northwest 2 4 Industries? 2 5 A . No . GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 2 57 WATER PCB-SD0000070761 1 g. Did you ever see any insurance 2 policies i s s u e d t o Fruit of the Loom? 3 A . No . 4 Q Did you ever see any insurance 5 policies i s s u e d t o Farley Industries? 6 A . No . 7 Q Did you ever see any insurance 8 policies i s s u e d t o Farley Northwest 9 Industri e s ? 1 0 A . No . 1 1 Q Did you ever see any insurance 1 2 policies i s s u e d t o Northwest Industries? 1 3 A . No . 1 4 Q Did you ever speak to Mr. Ch apm an 1 5 about any of what's been marked as Exhibit 1 6 Number 32? 1 7 A . No , sir. 1 8 Q . Did you ever speak to Mr. Bergen 1 9 anything that has been marked as 2 0 Exhibit 32? 2 1 A . No, sir. 2 2 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: Let's set 2 3 that one aside. 2 4 BY MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: 2 5 Q . Exhibit 3 3 , if you would take a GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS S OUR I 258 WATER PCB-SD0000070762 1 look a t that for a moment. Counsel marked 2 this as a n exhibit, and I don' t recall if it 3 was described for the record or not, but a t 4 the risk ofsome duplication, I'm going to 5 state that it bears production number s 2 4 6 2 6 through 2469. It is a letter on Universal 7 Manufacturing Corporation Capacitor Division 8 letterhead dated March 29 , 1 97 6, State of 9 Connecticut Department of Environmental 1 0 Protection, from -- and signed by 11 N. Ray Clark, Vice-President of Capacitor 1 2 Division of Universal. 1 3 BY MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: 14 Q. Mr. Papageorge, did youever see 1 5 this exhibit before? 1 6 A. I think I saw it yesterday 17 afternoon, but I'm notcertain. I had not 1 8 seen it before that. 1 9 Q . What is it about this document 2 0 makes you think you saw it yesterday 2 1 afternoon? 22 A. There were a series of letters 2 3 with the letterhead "Capacitor Division" and 2 4 there were, I remember the reference to State 2 5 of Connecticut on some of those documents . GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 259 WATER PCB-SD0000070763 1 This could have been one of them, but I'm not 2 certain. 3 Q . Do you recall how you c ame into 4 possession of the document you believe you 5 saw? 6 MS. SOBEL: Objection. He didn't 7 say he was in possession. He's not certain, 8 he said. 9 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: He can 1 0 answer that. 1 1 BY MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: 1 2 Q. Go ahead. 1 3 A. I was shown documents that I was 1 4 led to understand were submitted in this 1 5 matter. 1 6 Q. By whom? 17 A. By Mr. Davidson. 1 8 Q. Was anyone else present at that 1 9 time? 2 0 A . No . 2 1 Q. Let me direct your attention to 2 2 page 3 of the letter bearing production 2 3 number 2464, and in particular to the 2 4 numbered paragraph 7 appearing at the bottom 2 5 of that page. Do you see the sentence that GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 260 WATER PCB-SD0000070764 1 reads,. "Although plastic gloves are used, 2 operators in the impregnation area from time 3 to time get A r o c1o r 1016 on their hands or 4 other skin surfaces"? 5 A. I do see that, yes. 6 Q. Do you have some understanding 7 based upon your visit to the Bridgeport plant 8 or based upon your discussions with Universal 9 employees as to how operators in the 1 0 impregnation area from time to time got 11 Aroclor 1016 on their hands? 1 2 A . Not the specifics, no. 1 3 Q . Do you know generally? 1 4 A . Yes , that's c ommon in the 1 5 indus try. 1 6 Q . How, how does that happen? 17 A. Well, sometimes it gets behind the 1 8 cuff and gets down in there, sometimes 1 9 there's a break in the glove, it gets on the 2 0 skin, there are times when the employee takes 2 1 off the gloves, uses, handles the equipment 2 2 without gloves and then puts the gloves back 2 3 on. Those kinds of situations happen. 2 4 Q . Which equipment are you referring 2 5 to? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 261 WATER PCB-SD0000070765 1 A . Handling equipment with PCBs, 2 in a capacitor plant. 3 Q. That's because the PCBs would be 4 on the outside of the capacitors? 5 A. Yes, and on these baskets, and so 6 on, or the samples, when they're taking 7 samples of the liquid, and so on. 8 Q. I'd like to direct your attention 9 to the next page of the exhibit, and in 1 0 particular to numbered paragraph 8, which 11 reads, "Chipboard used on the floor around 1 2 chamber doors in the impregnation area to 1 3 absorb drippings of Aroclor 1016." Do you 1 4 see that reference? 1 5 A . Ido. 1 6 Q. Does that refresh your 17 recollection as to where you saw the stains, 1 8 PCB oil in the Bridgeport plant? 1 9 A. I don't remember seeing any 2 0 accumulation of what they call chipboard or 2 1 sawdust in the plant at that time, so I 22 cannot associate a pile ofchipboard with the 2 3 stains. It could well be that they are 24 related, but I didn't see it. 2 5 Q . Okay, let me ask you this; do you GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 262 WATER PCB-SD0000070766 1 recall seeing the stains around the chamber 2 doors of the impregnation chambers on the 3 floor? 4 A . Yes. Yes, and the conveying 5 system, where they were soldering, there were 6 some stains on the floor , and so on. 7 Q. Do you have any understanding as 8 to how the stains under the conveyor system 9 got there? 1 0 A . I was not told how. I can only 1 1 speculate how. 1 2 Q Do you have any understanding as 1 3 to how the stains came to be on the floor 1 4 around the chamber doors of the impregnation 1 5 chambers? 1 6 A. Again, I can -- I didn't see it 17 happening, but I didn't feel I had to ask. I 1 8 knew that or at least speculated how it 1 9 happened. 2 0 MS. SOBEL: I would object to any 21 speculation. 2 2 BY MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: 2 3 Q . When did you speculate? Now, or 2 4 back then when you visited the plant? 2 5 A . No, when I saw it, I -- to me, in GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 263 WATER PCB-SD0000070767 1 my own mind, it's obvious how it happened, so 2 I didn't ask the question . Now you are 3 asking me to formulize (sic) my speculation. 4 Q. What was it about the stains or 5 the location of the stains that made it 6 obvious to you as to how it happened? 7 A. The location, obviously, the type 8 of operation, and the fact that there are 9 liquid PCBs available that could drip on that 1 0 floor. The question is not so much is it on 11 the floor, but where does it go from that 1 2 point. If they controlled it with these wood 1 3 chips and properly dispose of those wood 1 4 chips, all you have is a stained floor; you 1 5 don't have an environmental pollution 1 6 problem, so I look on the stain as a symptom 1 7 of what possibly could happen if not properly 1 8 controlled. 1 9 Q. Okay. Was the chipboard 100 2 0 percent effective in eliminating PCBs from 21 the floor of the Bridgeport plant? 22 A. I don't know. I didn't see any 2 3 chipboard in use when I was in the plant. 2 4 Q. Did the presence of stains on the 25 floor of the Bridgeportplant indicate that GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 264 WATER PCB-SD0000070768 1 the chipboard was less than 100 percent 2 effective? 3 MS. SOBEL : Objection, David. 4 think he answered that question already. 5 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER : I don't 6 think so 7 MS. SOBEL: It's been asked and 8 answered. 9 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: You can 1 0 answer the question. 1 1 A. I don't know, when the chipboard 1 2 is applied, is it applied after the spillage 1 3 to absorb what's spilled or is it applied 1 4 before the spillage as a preventative, and if 1 5 so, is it allowed to collect enough material 1 6 so it still leaves a stain, or is it picked 17 up quickly so it's always dry between the 1 8 chipboard and the floor? These are things 1 9 that I did not see. I could not evaluate. 2 0 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: Okay, let's 2 1 set 33 aside. 2 2 BY MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: 2 3 Q. I believe you testified in 2 4 response to Ms. Sobel's questions that you 2 5 saw more than one stain at the Bridgeport GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 265 WATER PCB-SD0000070769 1 plant. Can you -- 2 A . I'm sorry? 3 Q I believe you testified in 4 response to Miss S o b e1 ' s que s tion that you 5 saw more than one stain at the Bridgeport 6 plant. 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Can you give us a sense of how 9 many stains you saw? 1 0 A. Whew. Of course, I didn't count 11 them, I just pointed them out as symptoms of 1 2 of spillage or loss. Half a dozen? I just 13 don't recall. I didn't count them. I saw 1 4 them, pointed them out, said, "Here's another 1 5 case of something got away from you. Make 1 6 sure it doesn't go down the sewer. Make sure 1 7 your people don't wallow through it." These 1 8 kinds of cautions is what I gave them, and 1 9 they were supposed to' take the action as 2 0 appropriate . 2 1 Q. Did anyone at the Universal plant 2 2 express surprise at the presence of the 2 3 stains? 2 4 A . Oh, no. 2 5 Q. Were they aware of the stains? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 266 WATER PCB-SD0000070770 1 A . Sure, they were. Oh , yeah. 2 Q When you visited the Bridgeport 3 plant, did you observe any drip pans on the 4 floors o f the plant? 5 A . I saw drip pans , but I honestly 6 can't tell you which plant they were in. I 7 saw too many capacitor plants in a month that 8 I could not distinguish at this point, twenty 9 years , thirty years later, just where they 1 0 were. I don't remember. 11 Q . Okay, let's stay focused on the 1 2 Bridgeport plant. 1 3 A . Mm-hmm. 1 4 Q Do you recall seeing any buckets? 1 5 A . Whew. Again , I saw buckets, but I 1 6 can't say for sure it was the Bridgeport 17 plant or it wasn't the Bridgeport. I cannot 1 8 say either way. 1 9 Q. Again, focusing strictly on the 2 0 Bridgeport plant and your visit to that 21 plant, do you recall seeing any funnels used 2 2 to collect or direct PCBs, or PCB oil from 2 3 the impregnation chambers at that plant? 2 4 A. No, I do not recall funnels. 2 5 Q . Earlier, I believe you testified GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 267 WATER PCB-SD0000070771 1 that you believed Universal to be totally 2 responsive and cooperative in respons e to a 3 question by Miss S obe1 about Universal ' s 4 efforts to abide by federal and state 5 regulations concerning PCBs. Do you recall 6 that, that testimony? 7 A. Ido. 8 Q. Okay, is your opinion about 9 Universal's efforts to abide by federal and 1 0 state regulations based on -- 11 MS. SOBEL: Why don't ask you -- 1 2 objection. Why don't you ask what it's based 1 3 on, first? 1 4 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: I think you 1 5 did that. 1 6 BY MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: 17 Q. I'd like to ask my question, which 1 8 is, is that opinion based on your lack of 1 9 knowledge as to whether or not Universal was 2 0 found to have violated any federal or state 2 1 regulations concerning PCBs? 2 2 A. No, it's based on my personal 2 3 contacts with Mr . Clark and his willingness 2 4 to talk to regulatory people, openly and to 2 5 listen, I guess it's based on my observation GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MIS S OUR I 268 WATER PCB-SD0000070772 1 of the behavior of the Universal people in 2 the presence of regulatory people . 3 BY MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: 4 Q. During any of your convers at ions 5 with Mr. Clark or by any of his conduct in 6 the presence of any regulatory people, did 7 you become aware that Universal had violated 8 federal and state regulations concerning 9 PCBs ? 1 0 A. I was never aware of that, no. 1 1 Q. Let's take a look, just briefly, 1 2 at Exhibit 344. 1 3 A. I have it. 14 Q. Okay. Take a look at the last 1 5 page of the exhibit. I believe Miss Sobel 1 6 directed your attention to a portion of this 1 7 exhibit which talks about tremendous 1 8 improvements in facilities and personnel by 1 9 Electronic Components. Do you recall that? 2 0 A . Ido. 2 1 Q. Do you have any idea what the 2 2 improvements and facilities are that are 2 3 referred to in this document? 2 4 A. I donot. 2 5 Q. Do you have any ideaof what the GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST . LOUIS , MISSOURI 269 WATER PCB-SD0000070773 1 facilities are that are referred to in this 2 document? 3 A . I do not. 4 0 - Do you have any idea of what the 5 conditions were at any Electronic Components 6 facilities prior to the preparation of this 7 document? 8 A. I do not. 9 Q. Do you know when this document was 1 0 prepared? 1 1 A . 1965 is the date on it. 1 2 Q Do you know more precisely? 1 3 A . I don't understand. 1 4 Q. Can you put a more precise date on 1 5 the preparation of the document? 1 6 A. All I have, sir, is what's on the 1 7 first page, June 21 through June 25, which 1 8 was the period during which the 1 9 representatives of the plant at which I was 2 0 plant manager visited several customers. 2 1 There is no date of typing or preparation of 2 2 this report. 2 3 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: Let's set 2 4 that one aside. 2 5 BY MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS S OUR I 27 0 WATER PCB-SD0000070774 1 0 Take a look a t Exhibit Number 3 5 . 2 That's the call report prepared by Mr 3 J. B. Bryant in August of '71? 4 A. I have it. Yes. 5 Q Mr . Bryant made his visit after 6 your vis it to the Bridgeport plant. Is that 7 correct? 8 A . Oh , yes. 9 o. Did you tell Mr. Bryant that you 1 0 had seen PCB oil stains on the floor of the 11 plant? 1 2 A . Yes. 1 3 Q When did you tell him that? 1 4 A . Oh , golly, a year before his trip 1 5 Q Did you discuss that with him a t 1 6 any time other than that prior to his trip, 17 as indie a t e d in this exhibit? 1 8 A . Not that I recall. There was n o 1 9 need to repeat i t . 2 0 Q I believe you testified that you 2 1 discussed Mr. Bryant's trip with him after he 2 2 returned? 2 3 A. Yes. 2 4 Q. Did he say whether he saw PCB oil 2 5 stains on the floor of the plant? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 27 1 WATER PCB-SD0000070775 1 A. No, he mentioned -- I think I used 2 the word the plant was "squeaky clean," "it 3 was a showplace," or some such words. The 4 net effect, at least on my perception, was 5 that the plant had come a long way, that they 6 were doing a n excellent job, and certainly a t 7 the time, I had other plants that were not a s 8 well off, so I directed my attention to them. 9 Q I ' m focusing specifically on what 1 0 it was he told you about his observat ions of 11 the Bridg e p o r t plant. 1 2 A . Mm - hmm . 1 3 Q Did he say that he saw no oil 1 4 stains on the floor of the plant? 1 5 A . Boy , you are asking me to remember 1 6 a specifi c . 1 7 Q Yes , sir. 1 8 A. I don't remember those exact 1 9 words . All I know is the overall evaluation, 2 0 that they're doing a great job and things are 2 1 under control , words to that effect. 2 2 And keep in mind, we're interested 2 3 in environmental pollution, not dirty floors . 2 4 There's a difference . Dirty floors are only 2 5 a symptom. You have to know what happens GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 27 2 WATER PCB-SD0000070776 1 with the material when it leaves that dirty 2 floor . 3 Q. Okay, what are the dirty floors a 4 symptom of? 5 A . It's a symptom that some of the 6 material instead of staying in a container or 7 apiece of equipment, landed on the floor. 8 That's all it says. 9 Q. Now, in response to a question by 1 0 Miss Sobel concerning other plants, capacitor 1 1 manufacturing plants that you visited, I 1 2 think you testified that you had seen some 1 3 that were better than the Universal plant, 1 4 and the better ones had the advantage in 15 that -- in being new. Do you recall that? 1 6 A. Yes. 17 Q. With respect to the extent of PCB 1 8 stains, what was the advantage of those 1 9 plants in being new? 2 0 A. Well, I have these kinds of things 2 1 in mind. A plant that is using an old 2 2 textile mill with oak beams, and oak floors, 2 3 and oak stairways, and poor ventilation, and 2 4 poor lighting, and the type of situation 2 5 where a spill is mighty difficult to clean GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 273 WATER PCB-SD0000070777 1 up, is a t a disadvantage when compared to a 2 plant that has a brand new concrete floor 3 with curbing, and the sewer system is 4 designed differently, and so on, so it's like 5 night and day walking into that, those two 6 situations, and there are variations in 7 between the two, so I've f ound that the new 8 plants, even before the environmental issue 9 was known regarding PCBs, had a distinct 1 0 advantage over the old plants in terms of 1 1 controlling escape to the environment. Just 1 2 almost by sheer luck, they ended up with 1 3 something better and easier to modify for 1 4 better, even better control. 1 5 Q. Do you have any understanding as 1 6 to the age of Universal's Bridgeport plant? 1 7 A. No, I don't. I never did ask. 1 8 Q. Based upon your observations of 1 9 plants, was the Bridgeport plant a new plant 2 0 or a n old plant? 21 A. I, I would call it down the middle 2 2 just about fits its performance when I 2 3 compare the appearance, and so on. 2 4 Q. Do you recall what the floor of 2 5 the Bridgeport plant was made of? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MIS S OUR I 274 WATER PCB-SD0000070778 1 A . Wood, wasn't it? Sure. 2 Q . What's your basis for saying that? 3 MR. DAVIDSON: He walked on it. 4 A . I don't know, I just -- 5 BY MR . SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: 6 Q . I s that true? 7 A . I remember a wooden floor. 8 Q . Okay. 9 A . I don't know what my basis is. 1 0 Q . You are referring to the floor in 11 the are a where the impregnation chambers 1 2 were? 1 3 A. In general. I went through so 1 4 many -- I went through offices, I went 15 through most of the facility. In general, I 1 6 am left with the impression that wooden 1 7 floors were involved. 1 8 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: Off the 1 9 record for a second. 2 0 (Discussion off the record.) 2 1 BY MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: 2 2 Q . Okay, I just have a couple of more 2 3 questions. If you could take a look at 2 4 Exhibit 3 6 again -- 2 5 A . I have it. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MISSOURI 27 5 WATER PCB-SD0000070779 1 Q -- do you know when this document 2 was prepared? 3 A. I do not. 4 Q. Have you seen it before yesterday 5 at all? 6 A. I have seen it before. I believe 7 I saw it yesterday, but I'm not certain . 8 I've seen versions of this before, many 9 times . It's nota surprise. 1 0 Q. I'm asking specifically about this 1 1 document that we've had marked as Exhibit 36, 1 2 not documents that resemble or are in the 1 3 same format. 1 4 A. I'm not certain whether I saw it 1 5 yesterday or not. 1 6 Q. Okay, set aside yesterday. Do you 17 have a distinct recollection of having seen 1 8 this particular document that we've had 1 9 marked as an exhibit, not documents of this 2 0 type, not documents in this format, but this 2 1 particular document, at any point in the past 2 2 prior to yesterday? 2 3 A . No . 2 4 MR. SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: I have no 2 5 further questions. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 27 6 WATER PCB-SD0000070780 1 MS . S OB E L: I'm done 2 MS . MATRE: No. 3 MR . HUEL SMAN: Dave , signature? 4 MR . SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: Yeah. 5 MR . DAVIDSON: We do not waive 6 signature. 7 MR . SCHWARTZ-LEEPER: Good. 8 MR . HUELSMAN: This is the end o f 9 tape 4 and o f the deposition. 1 0 (Whereupon , a t 6:50 p.m . , the 11 deposition was concluded.) 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 277 WATER PCB-SD0000070781 1 COMES NOW THE WITNESS, WILLIAM B . 2 PAPPAGEORGE, and having read the foregoing 3 transcript of the deposition taken on the 4 27th day of October, 1992, acknowledges by 5 signature hereto that it is a true and 6 accurate transcript of the testimony given on 7 the date hereinabove mentioned. 8 9 10 P- ____ 11 WILLIAM B . PAPAGEORGE 12 13 1 4 Subscribed and sworn to before me 1 5 this J_QL_ day of 16 17 My Commission expires: ___' 1 9 9 2. JOSEPHINE S. WIBLOCK NOTARY PUBLIC STATE OF MISSOURI ST. LOUIS COUNTY MY COMMISSION EXP. JAN. 15,1333 18 19 20 21 2 2 Notary Public 23 24 25 GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS S OURI 278 WATER PCB-SD0000070782 1 STATE OFMISSOURI ) 2 SS : ) 3 CITY OF ST. LOUIS ) 4 I J .Bryan Jordan, notary public 5 in and for the State of Missouri, duly 6 commissioned, qualified and authorized to 7 adminis ter oaths and to certify depositions , 8 do hereby certify that pursuant to agreement 9 in the civil cause now pending and 1 0 undetermined in the Circuit Court Cook 11 County, Illinois, County Department, Chancery 1 2 Division, to be used in the trial of said 1 3 cause in said court, I was attended at the 1 4 offices of Gallop, Johnson & Neuman, in the 1 5 County of St. Louis, State of Missouri, by 1 6 the aforesaid witness and by the aforesaid 17 attorneys, on the 27th day of October, 1992. 1 8 The said witness, being of sound 1 9 mind and being by me first carefully examined 2 0 and duly cautioned and sworn to testify the 2 1 truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 2 2 truth in the case aforesaid, thereupon 2 3 testified a s is shown in the foregoing 2 4 transcript, said testimony being by me 2 5 reported in shorthand and caused to be GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 27 9 WATER PCB-SD000007078 1 into typewriting, and that the 2 foregoing pages correctly set forth the 3 testimony of the aforementioned witness, 4 together with the questions propounded by 5 counsel and remarks and objections thereto, 6 and is in all respects a full, true, correct 7 and complete transcript of the questions 8 propounded to and the answers given by said 9 witness; that signature of the deponent was 1 0 not waived by agreement of counsel. 1 1 I further certify that I am not of 1 2 counsel or attorney for either of the parties 1 3 to said suit, not related to nor interested 1 4 in any of the parties or their attorneys. 1 5 Witness my hand and notarial seal 1 6 at St. Louis, Missouri, this day of 1 7 ____ 1 9 9 2. 1 8 My commission expires July 2 0 , 1 9 1 9 9 4. 20 21 2 2 J. Bryan Jordan 2 3 Notary Public in and for the 2 4 State of Missouri 25 GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 280 WATER DEPOSITION CORRECTION SHEET In Re: Aru // ob ^he. 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