Document Y9bJy58LYO3GedKayapOLo0rO

I S T A T E M E N T OF" = D R . T- O- M L J N S O N A u g u s t 13, 1 *?SS APPEARANCES Dr. T. 0. Hu nb on Chemistry Professor St. Clou d State Un i v e r s i t y St. Cloud, Mi nn e s o t a Hr. D a v i d S. H c C r e a HcCrea and HcCrea 119 South Walnut Street Bloomington, Indiana Hr. John Foster HcCrea and HcCrea 119 South Walnut Street Bloomington, Indiana *** The s t a t e m e n t of Dr. T. 0. Hunson, C h e m i s t r y P r o f e s s i o r at St. C l o u d S tate U n i v e r s i t y in St. Cloud, H i n n e s o t a uas take n by Hrs. Terri K.Kn ud son, N o t a r y Public, on Saturday, A u gu st 13, 1988, in the law o f f i c e of H c C r e a and HcCrea, loc at ed at 119 South Walnut Street, Bloomington, Honroe County, Indiana, co mm encing at 11:00 a.m. and endi ng on that same date at 12;30 p. m. i. L 904521 1 1 Q U E S T I O N I N G BY MR. D A V I D S. MCCR E A : 2 Q. Dr. Munson, could you explain to me what 3 P.C.B. is, in t e r m i n o l o g y that I c o u l d use to 4 e x p lain, say, t o my son w h o is in t h e -fifth ; s grade*? 6 A. P.C.B. , of cours, is an a c r o n y m -- l e t t e r s we 7 use to describe a longer name. The name is 8 polychlorinated bi--phenyls. That name is a 9 d e s c r i p t i o n o-f t h e c h e m i c a l . T h e chemical O 11 12 13 14 15 Q16 17 A. 18 19 Q. 20 21 A. 22 23 24 25 essentially is the chemical b i --phenyls. I t 's t wo --e s s e n t i a l l y t w o --- phenyl r i n g s or t w o benzene rings hooked together with one or more chlori n e s . P o l y m e a n i n g m a n y -- o n e or m o r e chlorines attached to the ring. If I w a n t e d to look at a P.C.B. m o l e c u l e , coul d I s e e it, usi ng the mi c rose ope*? No. Mol e c u l e s are much too small to see with a mi c r o s c o p e . Would it be possible to see it with an e l e c tron microscope*? No, I don't think so. I'm p r e t t y sur e you can't see...You can see D.N.A. molecules, for instance, I believe with a micron microscope, but they're quite large. A polyehlori nated bi--phenyl molecule is not large. It's a few 904522 rHE DEPO DEPOT (812) 331-2466 'em Knudson - Notary Public - K J. Boxf <54< Jloomington. Indiana 47402 1 2 Q. 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 lO 11 Q. 12 A. 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 2 hundreds in molecular weight. I have seen on a number of occasions a diagram of a P.C.B. molecule, and I hav e seen a model of a P.C.B. molecule, w h e r e t h e r e are atoms of hydrogen chlorine and carbon with connecting sticks. Again, on a level which I would explain to a student in the fifth grade, how does science determine what these molecules look like and bow t h e y 're arranged"? BRIEFLY MOFF THE R E C O R D " Is that a n s w e r a b l e ? Not in a few words. Basically, you sort of begin with the fact that the compound is chlorinated bi-phenyl and you know that a phenyl molecule is two benzene rings attached together. There was actually a rather large b r e a k t h r o u g h in organic c h e m i s t r y in the 1 8 0 0 's when someone post u l a t e d the s t r u c t u r e of the b e n z e n e ring. He had a dream of a snake biting its tail -- - so the story goes. The molecule has six atoms...The benzene m o l e c u l e has six atoms of carbon. Using the t e c h n i q u e s of the day to d e t e r m i n e how much c a r b o n and h o w muc h hyd r o g e n , t h e r a t i o of carbon to hydrogen d i d n 't make sense in any 904523 rHE DEPO DEPOT (812) 331-2466 rerri Knudson - Notary Public - P .0. Box 1454 - Bloominaton, Indiana 47402 4 1 that's taken up where a carbon on one ring is 2 bonded to a carbon on the other. That leaves 3 five h y d r o g e n s around. Now, i-f you put the 4 c h l o r i n e in, what y o u e s s e n t i a l l y do is you 5 would envision taking one hydrogen away and 6 r e p l a c i n g it with a chlorine. We h a v e ten 7 p o s i t i o n s w h e r e it m i g h t go. Now, s o m e o-f th e 8 p o s i t i o n s are e q u i v a l e n t , so like i-f it went 9 to this position on this one ring, you could l O -flip that a r o u n d in s p a c e and m a k e that be th e 11 s a m e m o l e c u l e as i-f it w e n t on to t h e o t h e r 12 position on the other ring. And so there's a 13 limit to t h e n u m b e r o-f d i f f e r e n t c o m p o u n d s 14 that y o u can i m a g i n e by p u t t i n g one c h l o r i n e 15 in. And you can kind o-f w o r k it out y o u r s e l f 16 if you had a model J u s t s t i c k it in d i f 17 f e r e n t places. B e c a u s e e a c h po s i t i o n , if y ou 18 h a v e n i n e h y d r o g e n s in t h e o t h e r p o s i t i o n s 19 and o n e c h l o r i n e there, that c h a n g e s t h e 20 properties and you get a new substance. B i 21 phenyl itself, I think, is a liquid at room 22 t e m p e r a t u r e and, if y o u s t i c k t h e c h l o r i n e on, 23 you'll still h a v e a l i q u i d -- s l i g h t l y d i f 24 f e r e n t p r o p e r t i e s , h o w ever. Y o u s t i c k m o r e 25 c h l o r i n e s ; the m o l e c u l e s get h e a v i e r -- they FHE DEPO DEPOT Terri Knudson - Notary Public - P 0. B i.. 904524 (812) 331-2466 Bkjomington, Indiana 47402 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 -e 9 lO 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q A Q A b e c o m e less liquid. If you r e p l a c e e v e r y s i n g l e p o s i t i o n with a chi ori ne, y o u 711 have something that looks almost like a solid glass, at room temperature. Dr. Munson, how d o e s the size of a P .C .B . m o l e c u l e c o m p a r e to the size of a cell in the human body? Oh, much, much s m a l l e r -- mu c h smaller. C e l l s are m a d e up of d i f f e r e n t c o m p o u n d s like p r o t e i n s and fats and t h i n g s of that nature, and each of t h e s e c o m p o u n d s is m a d e up of d i s c r e t e atoms. So you figure chlorinated bi--phenyl r e a l l y only has -- - i t 's got twelve carbon atoms, and as many as a total of, say, ten chlorine atoms. We're talking twenty--two atoms. A p i e c e of D.N.A., for instance, may h a v e t h o u s a n d s of a t o m s in it -- o n e s t a n d of D.N.A. Can a P.C.B. molecule get inside a cell in the body? Sure...Sure. P.C.B. is quite soluble in fat. It's only slightly in pure water, but your blood, for instance, is not pure water. Your b l o o d is a f l u i d that h a s salt in it. It also has fat in it. It has red b l o o d c e l l s in it. 904525 rHE DEPO DEPOT (812) 331-2466 Terri Knudson -Notary Public - P. 0: 3 0 x ^ 4 5 4 -Bloomington, Indiana 47402 1 2 3 4 Q. 5 a 7 A. 8 9 lO 11 12 Q. 13 14 15 A. 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 6 that h a v e a lot of -fat, and it can c e r t a i n l y be m o b i l i z e d into the -fat l a y e r s in your b o d y with no trouble. When we tal k about s o l u b i l i t y in -fat, is that a mechanism by which the P.C.B. enters into -fat c e l l s ? Yeah... Yeah. It wou l d be i n s i d e the -fat cell. And it p r o b a b l y . ..All cells have a little bit o-f -fat in them. L i p i d mater i a l , we call it, as opposed to the aqueous material. The P.C.B.s associate with lipid material. If a c h emical is s o l u b l e in water, d o e s that chemical invade the H2Q molecule, or does it get into the H20 molecule? It d o e s n 't get into the H 2 0 m olecule. Wh e n you talk o-f a c h e mical as b e i n g s o l u b l e -like, say, table salt, for instance, is very s o l u b l e in w a t e r -- i t 's an ionic ma t e r i a l . When you dis s o l v e it in the water, i t 's made up of s o d i u m and c h l o r i d e ions. When it dissolves in water, e s sentially the way you w o u l d v i e w it is, the s o d i u m a t o m w o u l d then become surrounded by water molecules. A sodium atom is fairly large, compared to a water molecule. 904526 rHE DEPO DEPOT (812) 331-2466 rerri Knudson - Notary Public - P. 0 Box it;54 - Bloomington, Indiana 47402 1 Q. 2 3 A4 5 6 7 8 9 lO 11 12 13 14 15 la 17 ie 19 20 21 22 23 24 Q. 25 '7i What ties those atoms together? What holds them together? E s s e n t i a l l y ionic forces. If you c o n s i d e r a water molecule as being an oxygen with two h y d r o g e n s a t t a c h e d to it, th e o x y g e n is s o m e what negative, the hydrogens are somewhat positive, and t h e r e 's a little separation of charge. So, if you i m a g i n e d y o u r s e l f b e i n g that size, if the o x y g e n part of th e wat e r molecule were facing toward you, you would be experi enci ng a negati ve charge. If i n s t e a d it rotated around and the two hydrogens were kind of p o i n t e d t o w a r d you, you w o u l d be f e e l i n g a p o s i t i v e charge. So, it just o r i e n t s itself, like, to the s o d i u m ion in salt -- is p o s i t i v e -- so the w a t e r m o l e c u l e s w o u l d h a v e the negative side associated to the positive. Positive and negative attract each other. The chloride molecule, on the other hand, is negative so the water iDolecules would rotate around and in that c a s e you would see it s u r r o u n d e d by a group of water m o l e c u l e s with the hydrogens associated. When we talk about the positive charge, does that have anything to do with an electrical 904527 THE DEPO DEPOT (812) 331-2466 Terri Knudson Notary PuLtc - P. D. Box 1454 - Bloomington, Indiana 47402 1 2. 3 4 5 6 7 -8 9 lO 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. A. 8 charge? Yeah. It is an e l e c t r i c a l charge. It can be viewed the same way. Dr. Munson, when you were in Bloomington, did you go to an area known as Twin Lakes with a r e p r e s e n t at i ve o-f West in g h o u s e ? (We d r o v e by Twin Lakes this morning.) Were comments made by the representative with respect to the k i l l i n g o-f w e e d s in o n e o-f the l a k e s ? And, if so, can you tell us what you r e c a l l ? Yes. I recall driving down a hard surfaced road. We were chatting about one thing and another. I d o n 't remember who this person was. I d o n 't b e l i e v e it was Lou Shove, but I c a n 't r e m e m b e r w h i c h o n e of the other p e o p l e it w o u l d h a v e been. He w a s t e l l i n g me abo u t some years earlier they had done an experi ment. They apparently had a continual weed problem in these lakes, and they did an e x p e r i m e n t to see if P . C . B . s c o u l d be u s e d to control the weeds in the lake. My u n d e r s t a n d ing w a s that t h e y put m a n y g a l l o n s -- I wou l d think h u n d r e d s of g a l l o n s -- of P . C . B . s in the lake. I 'm not s u r e w h e t h e r t h e y s p r a y e d it or h o w t h e y did it. But, I h a d n 't r e c a l l e d the 904528 rHE DEPO DEPOT (812) 331-2466 'em Knudson Notary Public -P .0 . Box 14 54 - Bloomington, Indiana 47402 1 2 3 4 5 a 7 8 9 lO II 12 Q. 13 14 IS 16 17 A. 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 9 n a m e of the lake, but I had a ver y vivid memory, in my mind. As we drove down the road, in tal k i n g about it and looking to the r i g h t and s e e i n g t h i s long, o b l o n g o-f water that we could see and then gesturing back to t h e left to the o t h e r lake, as we tur'ned around and looked there, that...There are more b u s h e s and trees in front along the edge of the road, but t h a t 's e x a c t l y the s h a p e I had in my mind, and it seems quite likely that that was the location. You mentioned earlier that P.C.B.s are not soluble in water, as is sodium chloride. And you explained how solubility comes about. Can you explain to us how P.C.B.s move through water? T he o n e t h i n g we h a v e to- be careful a b o u t whe n we talk about whether something is soluble or i n s o l u b 1e . . . It d e p e n d s u p o n what c r i t e r i a y o u 're using. Generally the way you say that is that, if you t a k e an amount, like a f e w g r a m s of it, and try to d i s s o l v e it in a few l i t e r s of water, or -- put it a n o t h e r w a y -- -- a quarter teaspoon and you try to put it in a quart of water, and you s h a k e it and s h a k e it 904529 FHE DEPO DEPOT (812) 331-246 Terri Knudson - Notary Public * P O. Box 1454-\Bloomington, Indiana 474 lO 1 and s h a k e it, and w h e n you -finish it looks 2 like everything you started with is still 3 there, t h a t 's sort o-f a -functional d e f i n i t i o n 4 o-f s o l u b i l i t y , you see. T h i s s u b s t a n c e is 5 not s o l u b l e in the water. Now, in actual S -fact, i-f you w e r e to t est t he w a t e r you m i g h t 7 find s o m e t i n y a m o u n t w e n t into the water. 8 M a y b e a m i l l i o n t h o-f y o u r q u a r t e r o-f t e a s p o o n 9 a c t u a l l y w e n t in. F u n c t i o n a l l y you w o u l d l O still s a y i t 's insoluble. But, as a m a t t e r 11 o-f -fact, a l i t t l e bit, perhaps, did go in. 12 Now, in t e r m s o-f P.C.B., you -functionally 13 w o u l d say i t ' s i n s o l u b l e . Now, as a m a t t e r 14 o-f -fact, i-f you took a -fi-fty g a l l o n d r u m o-f IS w a t e r and you a d d e d a q u a r t e r t e a s p o o n o-f 16 P . C . B . s and you s t i r r e d and you s t i r r e d and 17 you stirred, and then you carefully took some 18 v e r y c l e a n w a t e r out, so t h e r e w e r e no d r o p 19 lets or a n y t h i n g in it, and you m e a s u r e d with 20 a most s e n s i t i v e technique, you would m e a s u r e 21 a l i t t l e t i n y bit. I -forget t h e e x a c t number. 22 1 t h i n k i t 's d o w n a r o u n d a p a r t per trillion, 23 or s o m e t h i n g l i k e that, in t h e water. But, 24 t h e m a t e r i a l b a s i c a l l y is not s o l u b l e in 25 water. I t 's not s o l u b i l i s e d by the water 904530 FHE DEPO DEPOT (812) 331-2466 Terri Knudson- Notary Public * P \0 . m 1454 Bloomington, Indiana 47402 11 1 m o l e c u l e s that Me t a l k e d about. So, even i-f 2 you had that solution, if you did something 3 like took a l i t t l e bit o-f c l a y and put it in 4 there, to m a k e t h e w a t e r s l i g h t l y t u r b i d -5 s l i ghtly cloudy ---- stirred it up and -filtered a th e c l a y out, what you w o u l d -find n ow is all 7 o-f t h e P . C . B . s w h i c h you had m e a s u r e d as b e i n g 8 dissolved in the water would now be attached .9 to t h e sur-faces o-f t h e clay. I 'm not e x a c t l y l O s u r e wh a t -form. ... I b e l i e v e it's an ionic 11 attraction, but man y p e o p l e have d e m o n s t r a t e d 12 that P . C . B . s in water beh a v e this way. So in 13 an aquatic echo system, like the Chesapeake 14 Bay, or a m o v i n g river, or s o m e t h i n g o-f that 15 nature, there's almost always a little bit of IS s u s p e n d e d m a t e r i a l in t h e water. It may b e 17 v e r y -fine-- g r a i n clay. I-f you -filter the w a t e r 18 and c a t c h t h e clay, y o u '1 1 -find that the 19 P . C . B . s a r e a b s o r b e d to t h e s u r f a c e s o-f t h e 2 0 clay, and that's where you'll find it -- not 21 in the water. Now, i-f y o u t a k e just a gr a b 2 2 s a m p l e -- a jug o-f t he w a t e r --d o n ' t s e p a r a t e 23 it, l e a v e th e s e d i m e n t in t h e r e and do an 24 e x t r a c t i o n , you'll e x t r a c t t h e P . C . B . s out o-f 25 the w h o l e sample. But it's r e a l l y a b s o r b e d on 904531 THE DEPO DEPOT (812) 331-2466 Terri Knudson- Notary Public- P.Oi lo x r 54 - Bloomington, Indiana 47402 1 2 Q. 3. 4 5 A. 6 7 8 9 lO 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 2 2 Q. 23 24 25 12 the s e d i m e n t s in the water. What e f f e c t doe s the s i z e of th e p a r t i c u l a t e matter in the water hav e on the c o n c e n t r a t i o n of the P . C . B . s ? B a s i c a l l y -- I'm not s u r e I 'm g o i n g to answer your q u e s t i o n d i r e c t l y -- t h e f i n e r the siz e of t he s u s p e n d e d m a t e r i a l , the m o r e s u r f a c e a r e a it will h a v e for a g i v e n weight. T h e P.C.B. is attracted to the surface, therefore, finer m a t e r i a l -- if you f i l t e r e d out P.C.B. containing suspended sediment or looked at a s a m p l e that y ou s c o o p e d up off the b o t t o m of the s t r e a m -- - if yo u had o n e s a m p l e w h i c h was very fine and other one which was coarser, like sand, what you w o u l d find is that, if you m a t c h the s a m e w e i g h t of the sand and the s a m e w e i g h t of t h i s f i n e mud a f t e r you dri e d t h e m out, the fine mud would contain more P.C.B.s than the sand. The fine mud might have a t h o u s a n d t i m e s m o r e s u r f a c e ar e a -- -- total --- in the same w e i g h t as th e sand does. Can you discuss with us testing that you have done with regard to Oroclor 10-- 16 and its bioa c c u m u l a t i o n in cla m s at the South Boston plant in Virginia? 904532 rHE DEPO DEPOT (812) 331-2466 >rr/ Knudson - Notary Public - P.0. Box 1454- Bloomington, Indiana 47402 1 A. 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 lO 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 13 That p a r t i c u l a r i n c i d e n t and set o-f s a m p l e s stick in my mind because at the time Oroclor M-C-S. 10-- 16 went into use replacing Oroclor 12-- 42, it was said that this material was b i o d e g r a d a b l e -- w h i c h it p r o b a b l y is -- and there-fore would not b i o -- a c c u m u l a t e in the e n v i r o n m e n t - As y o u yre aware, o n e of th e big concerns about P.C.B.s and letting them leak in the environment, is a c c u m u l a t i o n through the food chain to high enough concentrations to h a r m fish e a t i n g birds, for i n s t a n c e -i n t e r f e r e with their r e p r o d u c t i o n . So, it was of p a r t i c u l a r i n t e r e s t to me to find, when I sampled around the South Boston plant, which was usi n g O r o c l o r M-C-S. 10-- 16, that in an area I had located where material was leaking from the plant and getting into L a w s o n 's Creek, we dug up fr e s h --water muscles there in the creek, and when I analyzed the fresh--water muscles, what I found was the pattern of p e a k s that I saw from the gastromatograph exactly d u p l i c a t e d the p a t t e r n of p e a k s in t h e O r o c l o r M-C-S- 10-- 16 -- e s s e n t i a l l y , e x a c t l y t h e s a m e as the material that was being used at the plant. So, in the c a s e . . -And the leve l s as I 904533 rHE DEP0 DEPOT (812) 331-2466 rerri Knudson Notary Public - P . t . S o ;. 1454 - Blobmington, Indiana 47402 1 2 3 4 S 6 7 8 Q. 9 I O A. 11 12 13 Q. 14 15 A. 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 . 24 25 A. 14 recai 1 them were rather high. They were certainly part per million levels in the clams... I'm s o r r y they w e r e m u s c l e s -- -fresh water muscles. So, this was clear evidence that, in -fact, O r o c l o r M.C.S. IO-- 16 d o e s b i o a c c u m u l a t e i-f an o r g a n i s m is e x p o s e d to e n o u g h o-f it. Did you recommend that that report be dis tributed or published? Do you recall? I s u g g e s t e d that it w o u l d be good to do so, b e c a u s e t h i s w a s n e w s c i e n t i -fie i n f o r m a t i o n that was not available. Do you know what the decision-making process was with respect to your suggestion? I don't even remember who the discussion was with. I'm sure I mentioned this to Dr. Kelly, but whether he went any higher to ask about it...He probably just gave me the answer I knew I would get, which was I was not allowed to p u b l i s h any o-f the i n f o r m a t i o n that was g e n e r a t e d -from my internal s u r v e y s o-f W e s t i n g -- house plants. Was that survey done in approximately 1971, by memory? Yes, it was in that period. I believe I 904534 rHE DEPO DEPOT (812) 331-2466 rerri Knudson - Notary P ib lic -P 0. Box *L54 - Bloomington, Indiana 47402 1 2 3 Q. 4 5 a 7 8 9 lO 11 12 13 14 IS ia 17 A. 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 15 v i s i t e d all o-f t h e s i t e s d u r i n g t h e -first t w e l v e m o n t h s o-f that survey. Y ou d i s c u s s e d a s a m p l i n g o-f s e d i m e n t in a river next to the plant in Sharon, Pennsyl vania, as a r e s u l t o-f a leak -from a tank containing P.C.B.s, in which, which I u n d e r s t a n d it, a tank w a s b e i n g r e m o v e d -from t h e Sharon Pennsylvania plant. A gasket, or some such closing device, detached and approxi m a t e l y 2 , 0 0 0 g a l l o n s o-f P.C.B. l eaked d i r e c t l y into the river. T e s t i n g was d o n e o-f a q u a t i c o r g a n i s m s -- -fish -- -- and sediment. Can you just describe to us the testing that you did, as a r e s u l t o-f that leak, the in-formation y o u had about t h e leak, and the r e s u l t s o-f th e tests? I have not seen the report which I wrote since the t i m e that I did it so, t h a t 's been 15 years or so ago. But it sticks in my mind because this was a rather unique situation where 1 had been told about the spill. The spill apparently had occurred several years earlier. I 'm not s u r e w h e t h e r it was t h ree y e a r s or -five years. T h e y w e r e r e m o v i n g the tank that they had previously stored their 12-- 904535 THE DEP0 DEPOT (812) 331-2466 Terri Knudson - Notary Public - P .0 . Bo 1454 Bloomington, Indiana 47402 16 1 42 in -- Oroclor 12-- 42. They all believed the 2 tank to be empty. The tank was going to 3 scrap. As they l i f t e d it up, t h e plug -fell 4 out. The material which someone estimated to 5 me had to be several thousand gallons -- 6 b e c a u s e t h i s was a h u g e t a n k ---fell out and 7 ran into a storm drain which went right 8 s t r a i g h t intp the river. I was s u rprised in 9 my s u b s equent sampling, that I did in the l O river,, to -find that I d i d n 't -find a t r a c e o-f . 11 it. In o t h e r words, t h e b i o l o g i c a l s a m p l e s 12 that we analyzed -- the sediment samples that 13 we analyzed -- did not indicate unusually high 14 l e v e l s of P.C.B.s. Now, t h e r e p r o b a b l y w e r e 15 c e r t a i n l y P . C . B . s t h e r e and I c a n 't r e m e m b e r 16 the numbers, but the only thing I could im 17 a g i n e -- and we s a m p l e d t h i s r i v e r d o w n s t r e a m 18 for several h u n d r e d m i l e s -- is that t h i s 19 r i v e r is c o n t r o l l e d by a d a m so it d o e s n 't go 20 t h r ough high f l u c t u a t i o n s in flow, and also 21 has a s e r i e s of w e i r s w h e r e the water is held 22 into pools, and then o v e r f l o w s and g o e s on 23 down into a n o t h e r pool. My g u e s s is that 24 P.C.B. ma t e r i a l p r o b a b l y w a s t r a p p e d u n d e r the 25 s e d i m e n t s that had b e e n laid dow n ov e r the 904536 rHE DEPO DEPOT (812) 331-2466 rerri Knudson - Notary Public-P.0. B o x '.4 5 4 - Bloomington, Indiana 47402 17 1 ypars. When we sampled, we used a surface 2 sampler. We just drop it in. I t 's like a 3 l i t t l e cl am s h e l 1 sampler. It s n a p s up a 4 b o t t o m sample. It p r o b a b l y d o e s n ' t p e n e 5 trate...that one probably didn't penetrate > m o r e than si:: inches. I s u p p o s e d that if we 7 had done some cores we would have found the 8 P.C.B. materials. But, the exciting thing to 9 me was that this i n d i c a t e d in the case w h e r e l O F'.C.B. material was input to an a q u a t i c s y s 11 tem, if you shut off the s o u r c e and g a v e the 12 system time to recover, that the P.C.B.s could 13 be t r a p p e d in t h e r i v e r s e d i m e n t s b e l o w the 14 a r e a of b i o l o g i c a l a c t i v i t y and the s t r e a m 15 w o u l d recover. I felt t h i s was e x c i t i n g 1a inf o r m a t i o n . It c ould be v e r y useful to 17 a g e n c i e s w h o w e r e i n v o l v e d in such s i t u a t i o n s 18 -- like G.E. up in the H u d s o n Riv e r for i n 19 s t a n c e -- and p e r h a p s we w e r e g o i n g to do m o r e 20 t r o u b l e by d r e d g i n g up s e d i m e n t s -- r e -- s u s 21 p e n d i n g all of t h i s stuff. We s h o u l d first 22 cons i d e r , if we cut off all of the i n p u t s to 23 th e system, th e s y s t e m m a y recover, and the 24 best p l a c e for the P . C . B . s m i g h t be t r a p p e d 25 down in t h o s e s e d i m e n t s . 904537 rri K n u H k n n - Notary/ P u h lln . P O R o y 1 4 F>4 R ln n m in n to ri In d ia n a 4 7 4 0 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Gl. A. 18 Again, Dr. Munson, did you make the suggestion that this information should be communicated to appropriate agencies, and what was the reaction? Yes, I s u g g e s t e d it. O n c e again, it was th e same. At that time, you could understand that no one even wanted the world to know that such sampling was being done. No one wanted to focus a n y a t t e n t i o n on the fact that W e s t i n g house, in fact, had sites that were leaking P. C. B. s. There was an incident you descr i b e d to me, wherein a worker was filling capacitors or possibly another electrical device with P.C.B.s from a hose, and can you tell us what yo u o b s e r v e d a bout the w o r k e r -- t h e c o n t a m i n a t i o n of P . C . B . s -- a n d 'any c o n v e r s a t i o n that you had with the worker? I remember clearly standing with this fellow and c h a t t i n g w i t h him. T h e t h i n g I 'm a l i t t l e fuzzy on is which W e s t i n g h o u s e plant it was. 1 think it was Bloomington because I think what he was doing was filling capacitor cans. The devices he was f i11ing were not very large. I mean, they were smaller than he was 904538 FHE DEPO DEPOT (812) 331-2466 Terri Knudson - Notary Public - P. 0. Box 1 4 5 4 - Bloomington, Indiana 47402 1 profitable. And I know we all knew inside 2 W e s t i n g h o u s e ,. t he big p r o b l e m was the r e t u r n 3 on the dollar was very small I think it was 4 like t h r e e and' o n e half cents. GE was d o i n g 5 like 13 cents on the dollar. Big push on to 6 increase profitability. They were pushing... 7 Don Burnham was trying to get up to five 8 cents, I think, that. year. And Mr. B r i t t a i n 9 was very concerned that his plant was going to I O be closed, putting himself and all the people 11 out of work. And he felt that, if he i n s i s t e d 12 on a capital investment that he guessed would 13 he a r o u n d $ 1 0 , 0 0 0 to a c c o m p l i s h this, it m i g h t 14 be the straw that broke the c a m e l 's back. And 15 t h e y m i g h t c l o s e the p l a n t that year. And so 1a he said t h e r e was no w a y t h e y c o u l d do it. An 17 a d d i t i o n a l r e c o m m e n d a t i o h I m a d e to John K e l l y 18 was that tha t r e p o r t be m a d e p u b l i c b e c a u s e 19 t h e r e wa s d a t a in it i n d i c a t i n g that t h e r e 20 were fish in the area that exceeded the E.P.A. 2 1 limit -- or the F.D.A. limit, I t h i n k it i s -- 22 for h u m a n c o n s u m p t i o n of f i v e p a r t s per m i l 23 lion. And I was c o n c e r n e d that t h e r e c o u l d be 24 p e o p l e e a t i n g e n o u g h of t h o s e fish to h a v e 25 a d v e r s e h e a l t h effects. And I fe l t we had a 904539 THE DEP0 DEPOT (812) 331-2466 Terri Knudson Notary Public P i - `.Box TP 34 -C ioomihgton, Indiana 47402 1 2 3 4 Q. 5 6 A. 7 8 9 IO 11 Q. 12 13 14 15 16 17 A. 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 24 moral responsibility to release that report. And I w a s told a b s o l u t e l y not -- u n d e r no circumstances could that data be released. When you w o r k e d -for W e s t in g h o u s e , did you ha v e m e e t i n g s with Mr. F'apageorge o-f M o n s a n t o ? I met Mr. P a p a g e o r g e on a n u m b e r o-f o c c a s i o n s . I c a n 't r e m e m b e r s p e c i f i c a l l y whether I was present at a Wes t i n g h o u s e / M o n s a n t o meeting per se . BRIEF RECESS Dr. Munson, the document titled: Meeting with M o n s a n t o on Inertine, d a t e d D e c e m b e r 16, 1971 has been reviewed by you. Would you offer any comments with respect to the document, the person a l recol 1ect ions o-f th e e v e n t s and the meeting. Well, I d o n 't remember very much about this meeting. I remem b e r going to St. L o uis and the Sc o t t T u c k e r h e r e is Dr. E. S. Tucker, w h o was e s s e n t i a l l y the -fellow at M o n s a n t o doing analytical work with samples. Well, I was u s i n g hi s methods, e s s e n t i a l l y - O n e o-f t h e things I did that day, I 'm pretty sure, is h ave a short meeting with Dr. Tucker in his laboratory, where we talked about methods. THE DEPO DEPOT 904540 (812) 331-2466 *r * _u..* r. /n/WI p"* A7 AA o 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Q 9 lO 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Q. 25 25 I r e c o g n i z e m a n y of t h e n a m e s -- Ed B o q u i s t was the headquarters guy who essentially got all o-f my reports; John Kelly, of c o u r s e , -- it says Jack Kelly here and his name is m i s spelled, it's K -- E -- L -- L -- Y, was my boss at W e s t i n g h o u s e O c e a n R e s e a r c h Lab -- t h a t 's Dr. J. C. R. Kelly, Jr. L y o n H a n d e l k o r n was the chemist at the R & D Center. Tom Dakin also was a chemist at the R & D Center. Those two I d o n 't b e l i e v e w e r e m a n a g e m e n t -- t y p e s . Go r d o n Gainer, I d o n 't r e m e m b e r him. Don S a u t e r was, I believe, the boss of the manager of the p l a n t at B l o o m i n g t o n . I t h i n k t h a t 's t h e w a y the s t r u c t u r e worked. Of course, Don M c C l a i n was fr o m Bloomington. T.K. S l o a t . . . I 'm tr y i n g t o r e m e m b e r ... I d o n 't t h i n k he w a s t h e m a n ager...! think he was one of the engineering manager people at Sharon. And I think I had met him at Sharon. Of course, P apageo r g e I had met at some scientific meetings. And I d o n 't think I knew any of the other people up t h e r e -- t h e M o n s a n t o p e ople. T h a t 's a b o u t all. Dr. Munson, you made r e f e r e n c e to Ed Boquist. Could you approximate how many memorandums 904541 THE DEPO DEPOT (812) 331-2466 Terri Knudson - Notary Public P.0. Boy. 454 :Bloomington, Indiana 47402 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 -8 9 O 11 12 13 14 15 1> 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 19 in any event, and they were on sort of a r o l l i n g a s s e m b l y t h i n g in -front o-f him. What he was doing was he was putting the Inertine materi a l i n t o t h i s d e v i c e -- c a p acitor, I t hink --- w i t h an a r r a n g e m e n t that looked like the nozzle you would use to put gasoine in your car. He was wearing what looked like a rubber apron that covered him...It didn't have s l e e v e s on it. It w a s s o r t o-f l i k e a g r o c e r s apron. It went down to a b o u t m i d - c a l f . T h e apron appeared to be mostly wet with the material. His hands. .. I d o n ' t r e m e m b e r i f he was wearing gloves or not, but his hands were wet with material, and I particularly was caught by the fact that his pants -- from the b o t t o m of t h e a p r o n to t h e cuff -- w e r e s o a k ed. His socks were soaked. His shoes were soaked. I was comi ng from an envi ronment where I used this material in milligram quan tities, measured out very carefully and a f u m e --hood and that sort of thing, and I was a bit t a k e n a b a c k to see this. I a s k e d h i m if he changed clothes before he went home. He said, "n o . 1* I said: "Then, you put your clothes right into the family wash?" He said, 904542 rHE DEPO DEPOT (812) 331-2461 rerri Knudson - Notary Public - P. 0. B~x 1454 - Bloominoton. Indiana 474C 1 2Q 3 4 5 6 7 8 9A O 11 12 13 14 15 l> 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 20 Was there an occasion where you collected samples using a Westinghouse truck, with the W e s t i n g h o u s e name on the truck, and in one instance rented a truck without the Westingh o u s e n a m e b e c a u s e o-f p o t e n t i a l s e n s i t i v i t y to the testing, or whatever, and can you describe that? Yes. Basically we had a regular pick-up truck with a little camper shell on the back, which was painted Westinghouse blue, with a circle bar W on the door. It said W e s t i n g h o u s e O c e a n R esearch Laboratory. We used it to...We had a boat that we towed when we used a 1arger boat or we had a Ted W i l l i a m s g a m e -Fisher boat w h e n we used a smaller boat that we had in back. W e 7d keep our s u p p l i e s and e v e r y t h i n g in this. This is the a r r a n g e m e n t ...When we were doing sampling, we would drive this to the site and stay -four or -five d a y s and s a m p l e a r o u n d with it. At o n e s i t e -- I c a n ' t r e m e m b e r w h i c h one it was -- th e p lant p e r s o n n e l w e r e v e r y c o n cerned that we would be observed in our W e s t inghouse truck out there doing the sampling. T h e y w e r e a-fraid that s o m e b o d y w o u l d com e 904543 THE DEPO DEPOT (812) 331-2466 Terri Knudson - Notary Public -1 '-O .i >x 14^1- Bloomington, Indiana 47402 1 2 3 4 5 a 7 8 9 1C 11 Q. 12 A. 13 Q. 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 A. 21 22 23 24 25 21 along, w o u l d want to k n o w what kind o-f s a m pling we were doing, and somehow this might lead to more investigation. And so we had to rent a -- I b e l i e v e we w o u n d up with a Hertz truck. It w as s o m e w h a t a b s u r d b e c a u s e the s m a l l e s t o n e we cou l d get was about -Five times bigger than we needed and our gear just r a t t l e d a r o u n d i n s i d e t he back o-f it. And so we motored around the c o u n t r y s i d e in this absurd arrangement, doing our sampling. You d o n 't know which plant that was? No. I r e ally c a n 't remember. After you tested the samples which you col lected in the B l o o mington area, did you make a recommendation to the personnel at the W e s t inghouse Plant in Bloomington with regard to control of P . C . B e f f l u e n t f r o m t h e p l a n t ? I-f so, will you tell us what your r e c o m m e n d a t i o n was and what was done? The one a r e a we s a m p l e d -- we s a m p l e d a n u m b e r o-f areas, but one o-f th e a r e a s at th e B l o o m i n gton p l a n t --clearly. . . P . C . B m a t e r i a l -from the plant was going to the sewage treatment plant. We a s s u m e d that g o i n g in; there f o r e , we s a m p l e d the e f f l u e n t -from the s e w a g e t r e a t - 904544 THE DEPO DEPOT (812) 331-2466 Torri Xm iHcnn - Notary Pi ihlrn i p r- 0 x 7 4 5 4 - Blnnminoton. Indiana 47402 1 ment plant and, very clearly, it c o n tained 2 P . C . B 's. We t r a c k e d that p a r t i c u l a r s t r e a m 3 d o w n s t r e a m quite a ways, and it was o b v i o u s 4 how much P . C . B 's were there. And I told them 5 that a n y o n e who l o o k e d --s a m p l i n g -for P.C. B 's 6 or if t h e y w e r e s a m p l i n g -for just p e s t i c i d e s 7 --w o u l d -find th F . C.B^s. It w a s that o b 8 vious. And what they needed to do was, 9 before the final effluent went into the drain lO to go to the sewage treatment plant, was to 11 put s o m e sort of a s t r i p p i n g s y s t e m in there, 12 w h e t h e r they had som e kind of a s o l v e n t s t r i p 13 per or s o m e t h i n g to s t r i p the P . C . B * s b a c k out 14 of that e f f l u e n t so that t h e y wou l d get dow n 15 to a low e n o u g h level that the s e w a g e t r e a t 1 6 ment plant would a s s i m i l a t e it all and it 17 w o u l d be c a p t u r e d in t he sludge, and t h e r e 18 w o u l d be no m o r e e f f l u e n t i n t o th e a q u a t i c 19 e c h o system. I w a s to l d by Mr. B rittain, th e 20 Plant Manager -- I clearly remember having 2 1 e i t h e r lunch or d i n n e r wit h h i m -- as we sat 22 a c r o s s t h e t a b l e and d i s c u s s e d the report, my 23 r e c o m m e n d a t i o n was that t h e y do this. He 24 s e e m e d like a v e r y n i c e man -- ve r y c o n c erned, 25 but the plant, he told me, w a s o n l y m a r g i n a l l y 904545 rHE DEPO DEPOT (812) 331-2466 Terri Knudson - Notan/ Public - P .0. Box 1454 - Bloominpton, Indiana 47402 26 1 w e r e sent to Mr. B o q u i S t on the s u b j e c t o-f 2 t e s t i n g -for P . C . B . s that l e a k e d -from c a p a c i t o r 3 or trans-former manu-f act ur ing p l a n t o p e r a t i o n s ? 4 A. Wei 1, I k n o w that I put t o g e t h e r at least 5 t h r e e reports. T h e r e w a s one -for the S h a r o n 6 people -- Sharon, Pennsylvania -- there was 7 o n e -for t h e S o u t h B o s t o n people, and t h e r e w a s 8 on e -for the B l o o m i n g t o n people. I b e l i e v e 9 there was also a brief report about some lO s a m p l i n g that I did at East Pitt s b u r g h , w h e r e 11 th e y used to m a k e tran s f o r m e r s . Now, I had 12 i n s t r u c t i o n s that I was to deal with Ed 13 B o q u i s t and Bud Kerns, w h o w a s a l s o in h e a d 14 quarters work manufacturing. These two basi 15 c a l l y had as t h e i r j o b s t o . . . M y u n d e r s t a n d i n g 16 is t h e y w e r e the h e a d q u a r t e r s p e o p l e w h o w e r e 17 o v e r s e e i n g e n v i r o n m e n t a l c o n c e r n s -for th e 18 West, in g h o u s e E l e c t r i c C o r p o r a t i o n . I b e l i e v e 19 o n e o-f t h e m m a y h a v e b e e n h e a d q u a r t e r e d in N e w 20 York City in the office in New York City -- 21 i and the other one in the head q u a r t e r s office 22 in P i t t s b u r g h . So, I s e n t at least t h o s e 23 t h r e e --p o s s i b l y - f o u r --- r e p o r t s to e a c h o-f 24 t h o s e -fellows, and I t h i n k I m a y h a v e a l s o 25 sent t h e m s o m e o-f t h e m a n u s c r i p t s that I 'd 904546 THE DEPO DEPOT (812) 331-2466 Terri Knudson- Notarv Public P.0. Box 1454 - Btoominaton, Indiana 47402 1 2 3 4 5 Q. 6 7 8 9 lO A. 11 12 13 14 15 la 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 27 p u b l i s h e d on P.C. B.s -From p r o g r a m s that w e r e not company proprietary. I'm almost certain that both Ed Boquist and Bud Kerns were at the 1975 P.C.B. meeting in Chicago. In the p r e p a r a t i o n o-f t h e r e p o r t -for B l o o m i n g -- ton, Indiana, which we have, did you make a recommendation that measures to control leaks o-f P . C . B . s into the e n v i r o n m e n t be i n c l u d e d in the report? Let ?s see. . . I d o n ?t know if I s p e c i f i c a l l y did that. I n i t i a l l y . . . In fact, I c a n 't r e m e m b e r which report was prepared first. There was, I think, to put it mildly, a c o n s i d e r a b l e amount of u n e a s i n e s s a m o n g s t th e p e o p l e who m a n a g e d the sites that I sampled. Just in what f a s h ion the reports were going to come out and how the data was going to be handled, I was given i n s t r u c t i o n s by Dr. K e l l y about how to s t r u c ture the report and the first report, which ever one it was, sort of set the tone and we followed it in the others. And that was, I was to clearly lay out where the samples were taken, what the r e s u l t s of the s a m p l e s w e r e in terms of the P . C . B . s that w e r e found, and s u m m a r i z e what this meant in t e rms of w h ere 904547 THE DEPO DEPOT , (812) 331-2466 Tarn KnuHcnn - Notary/ Puhtir - P*;A Bo* 1454 innminnton. Indiana 47402 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Q. 9 IO 11 A. 12 13 14 IS 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 28 l e a k a g e s w e r e c o m i n g -from, w h e r e t h e y we r e going, and t h a t sort o-f thing. But, I was not to get involved with discussing environmental e-f-fects or r e c o m m e n d e d c h a n g e s and that sort o-f thing. T h o s e s o r t s o-f t h i n g s w e r e to be dealt with verbally at the meetings where we sat down and discussed the material. Did you, on one occasion, go to San Francisco to meet Dr. Riesboro, and will you describe the circumstances? Yes, I did. That was when I was first getting started in measuring P.C.B.s. I'd read some articles. I was in San Diego at the Ocean Research Lab. This probably would have been the s u m m e r o-f 1969, I g u e s s -- m a y b e in t o 1970. I had been m e a s u r i n g D.D.T. levels in aquatic organisms. I had been learning how to do so, and I'd read about P.C.B.s. At that time, he w as the -- e s s e n t i a l l y th e -- g u r u in the U n i t e d S t a t e s o-f s a m p l i n g m e t h o d o l o g y -that sort o-f thing. So I c a l l e d h i m up: He was at B e r k e l e y -- a p r o f e s s o r at B e r k e l e y -- and a s k e d if I c o u l d c o m e up and talk to him. I told him who I was, and I'd like to talk to h i m a b o u t methods. He said, "fine. 11 We set 904548 THE DEPO DEPOT (812) 331-2466 Terri Knudson - Notan/'-Public -4 0 . dx 7* -4 - Bloominoton, Indiana 47402 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 IO 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 . 18 A. 19 2. 20 21 22 23 24 25 29 up a date. I -flew to San F r a n c i s c o --no I -flew to Oakland, I 'm sorry. I f l e w to the Oakland Airport and took rapid transit up to the campus. I was -familiar with the campus b e c a u s e I went to school there. I -found hi s lab, at t he a p p o i n t e d hour, and he w a s n 't there. I waited, and -finally talked to a g r a d u a t e student, and t h e y said, "we d o n 't kn o w w h e r e he is or w h e n h e 'll be b a c k . " I waited several more hours and -finally gave it up and went back home again. I ran into Dr. Riesboro later on at a scientific meeting and, even at that point, he would hardly speak to me. I r e a l i z e d that, to him, I was one of the "black hats" of the industry, and he would not talk to me. Do you have the other reports? O ther t h a n B l o o m i n g t o n ? No, I d o n 't. Dr. Munson, could you d e s c r i b e for us your i m p r e s s i o n s and t h o ughts, as a r e s u l t of t h e tour which we made yesterday, including our visit with Dale and Connie Conard? Well, I guess the one feeling I was really struck with when I was talking with Dale and Connie Conard is that I felt really guilty for THE DEPO DEPOT 904549 (812) 331-2466 -f mr- * fS t_ _ ... __ * __ t~ M a-**r\ 30 1 not h a v i n g p r e s s e d the r e l e a s e o-F t h i s in-for-- 2 mation in 1972. Bloomington was the one case 3 that s t o o d out in my mind. I -felt like th e 4 in-formation definitely should have been made 5 public. I was told of o n e o-f h i s n e i g h b o r i n g a -farmers having, some years before, complained 7 of the state of pr o b l e m s with the reproduction 8 of his pigs and that sort of thing, and we 9 sampled to ascertain whether or not effluent lO was running -- or Inertine P.C.B. was moving 11 -- from the landfill into the area through his 12 farm that would be a water source for his 13 animals. I found that it was. It was my 14 opinion that that most definitely would be I S what his p r o b l e m was. Whether it was Inertine 16 or o n e of the o t h e r c h e m i c a l s in t h e l andfill, 17 that was his trouble. I really felt like the 18 i n f o r m a t i o n s h o u l d h a v e b e e n m a d e public. I 19 a g o n i z e d over it at s o m e l e n g t h in the e a r l y 20 7 0 's, and finally, as I'm s u r e m a n y o t h e r s 21 did, I d e c i d e d that I C o u l d not s t a n d the risk 22 of losing my career at W e s t i n g h o u s e by b r i n g 23 ing that i n f o r m a t i o n forth, and 1 d i d n 't do 24 so. L a t e r on, perhaps, w h e n I w a s w o r k i n g 25 with E . P . A . , I c o u l d h a v e d o n e it, but o n c e 904550 rHE DEP0 DEPOT (812) 331-2466 Terri Knurisnn - Notary Puhlin- P. 0. Bo)f 4 5 4 1-Blodminoton, Indiana 47402 1 2 .3 4 5 6 7 8 9 IO 11 12 13 14 15 IS 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 . A. Q. A. 51 again, it w a s my u n d e r s t a n d it w a s c o m p a n y proprietary and I could still be legally p r o s e c u t e d -for r e l e a s i n g that i n f o r m a t i o n -- possibly go to jail And I just never had e n o u g h c o u r a g e to d o it. I felt p r e t t y bad yesterday. Can you describe to us the contr ibut ions of Dr. Ein -- E - I - N -- N e s b i t t -- N - E - S - B - I - T - T -- is that correct? It's B-E-T-T, I think. ...with respect to P.C.B. data? Okay. I met Ein N e s b e t t in 1976 w h e n . . . It wa s just at t h e v e r y end o-f my c a r e e r at W e s t i n g house. In -fact, it w a s w i t h i n a m o n t h or t w o of the time I left W e s t i n g h o u s e . I was allowed by Westinghouse to go to Washington and tak e a leave of a b s e n c e fro m W e s t i n g h o u s e and be employed as a consultant by E.P.A. to give t e s t i m o n y in the P.C.B. h e a r i n g s that were going on. I b e l i e v e they were called Registry Hearings. What E.P.A. wanted to do was build a strong enough case to essentially r e m o v e the p e r m i t t e d use of P . C . B . s for e l e c trical transformers and capacitors, based upon the environmental effects and the threat to FHE DEPO DEPOT OO f "f /fCvf 904551 I (812) 331-2466 Inr/ono /f 1 human health. So, I went in to testi-fy and 2 they asked me to continue as a consultant to 3 work with the lawyer who was prosecuting the 4 case. I believe I served about two weeks. 5 During that time was when I met Ein Nesbett. 6 He, at that time, wa s w o r k i n g -for the 7 Massachusetts Audubon Society. I believe the 8 Audubon Society and the Environmental Defense 9 Fund and others like that were providing l O v o l u n t a r y s e r v i c e s -- at least I t h o u g h t it 11 was v o l u n t a r y -- to the E.P.A., b e c a u s e many 12 o-f t h e s e p e o p l e had spe n t m a n y y e a r s g a t h e r i n g 13 d a t a and g e n e r a t i n g g r o u n d root s u p p o r t 14 a g a i n s t the u s e o-f p e r s i s t e n t c h l o r i n a t e d 1 5 materials. I came to r e a l i z e that Dr. N e sbett 1 6 wa s o n e o-f the c r u s a d e r s in this. He was v e r y 17 m i l i t a n t -- v e r y d e d i c a t e d -- and e x t r e m e l y 18 k n o w l e d g e a b l e . He p e r s o n a l l y was w o r k i n g 19 t h e r e e v e r y d a y g e t t i n g t o g e t h e r the s c i e n t i f i c 20 in-formation to s u p p o r t th e c r i t e r i a d o c u m e n t 21 that is a s s e m b l e d in t h e s e s o r t s of hearings. 22 A big t h i c k c r i t e r i a d o c u m e n t is a s s e m b l e d 23 dealing with in a step by step f a s h i o n 24 t h e p o i n t s that are to be m a d e in court. In 25 fact, I was u n d e r the i m p r e s s i o n that he -- 904552 1THE DEPO DEPOT (812) 331-2466 r~ ' r J r s sy n _ Dt etjirs _ d ID i R n y f dRA - zhnnminntnn Indiana A 7AC)0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Q. 8 9 IO 11 12 13 14 A. 15 Q. 16 17 18 19 20 A. 21 22 23 24 25 33 himself, p e r s o n a l l y --wa s a s s e m b l i n g that d o c u me n t . He wa s h a n d l i n g ca r t l o a d s of in-formation and I was quite impressed with his b a c k g r o u n d and e x p e r i e n c e in P . C . B . s -- and I should say, with his commitment to the cause. He seemed just really, really committed. Dr. Munson, I sent to you a document dated S e p t e m b e r 16, 1975, w h i c h w a s th e W e s t i n g h o u s e r e s p o n s e to i n q u i r i e s o-f t h e U n i t e d S t a t e s Environmental Protection Agency. The document w a s w r i t t e n by R o g e r E. Wills, A t t o r n e y . H a v e you had an opportunity to review that docu ment? Yes...Yes, I looked at that document. Did that document contain any reference to the r e p o r t w h i c h you p r e p a r e d -for t h e B l o o m i n g t o n Distribution Apparatus Plant, titled "Prelimin a r y R e p o r t o-f I n e r t i n e E n v i r o n m e n t a l S u r v e y at Bloomington Distributions Apparatus Plant?" As near as I c o u l d -figure out -from th i s d o c u ment, no w h e r e in this d o c u m e n t does it m e n tion that any such survey was ever performed. It's p o s s i b l e --it's h a r d to tell -from, w h a t 's h e r e --that s o m e o-f t h e d a t a t h a t is s u b mitted in a few of the tables here may be some 904553 THE DEPO DEPOT (812) 331-2466 T a r r i if nurlann . Notary/ Ptihlln . P D R n v 14^ 4 - R loo m in n tn n In d ia n a 4 7 4 0 9 1 2 3 4 5 Q. 6 7 8 9 lO 11 12 13 A. 14 Q. 15 IS 17 18 19 A. 20 21 22 23 24 Q. 25 4 o-f t h e s e d i m e n t s a m p l e s that I an a l y z e d . But, certainly t h e r e 's n o suggestion here that anyone did any environmental surveys around the pi ants. Q u e s t i o n n u m b e r 7 -- on p a g e 7, I b e l i e v e -reads: "The r e s u l t s o-f a n y and all s a m p l i n g and analysis performed by your company, its a g e n t s or c o n t r a c t o r s , s i n c e J a n u a r y 1, 1971, concerning the -following:" And then it has "A, B, C . " Did t h e w o r k w h i c h you did at th e W e s t i n g h o u s e p l a n t c o m e a f t e r the d a t e o-f J a n u a r y 1, 19717 Yes. Did it c o n c e r n u n d e r s u b -- c a t e g o r y a, " c o n centrations of P.C.B. compounds or mixtures in the e f f l u e n t o-f any d i s c h a r g e s by the c o m p a n y (into w a t e r s o-f t h e U n i t e d S t a t e s or p u b l i c l y owned treatment works?)" It c e r t a i n l y w a s c o n c e r n e d w i t h that. We did not actually analyze...I did not actually analyze effluents or discharges, but I cer t a i n l y a n a l y z e d s e d i m e n t s t a k e n -from th e waters. Did it c o n c e r n the -flow a n d / o r c o m p o s i t i o n o-f anydischarges or emissions by the company T H E DEPO DEPOT Ttsrri ISm irlonn - N n t a n / Pt thlin P 'O :R o y '? 904554 ! (812) 331-2466 -1 ilnnminnton. Indiana 47402 1 2A 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 lO 11 12 13 14 Q. 15 16 17 18 19 20 2 1 A. 22 23 24 25 which contain P.C.B. compounds or mixtures? Yes, it c e r t a i n l y did. T h e w h o l e t h r u s t o-f the survey was to determine whether there were e m i s s i o n s -from the p l a n t s --w h e t h e r in t he form o-f e f f l u e n t s or run o-f-f -from a roof , or w h a t ev e r . That was t h e t h r u s t o-f the survey. We s a m p l e d e m i s s i o n s -from v a c u u m ovens, -for instance, that were vented in such a way as to b l o w d o w n t h e d o w n s p o u t s o-f a b u i l d i n g and collect in a drainage ditch, and perhaps then to -flow a w a y -from t h e plant. We -followed t h o s e at g r e a t l ength -from several o-f th e plants. Did it c o n c e r n c o n c e n t r a t i o n s o-f P.C.B. c o m p o u n d s or m i x t u r e s in r e c e i v i n g waters, both u p s t r e a m and d o w n s t r e a m , o-f a n y d i s c h a r g e s by the company, which contained P.C.B. compounds or m i x t u r e s , and c o n c e n t r a t i o n s o-f P.C.B. compounds or mixtures, in the air in the area o-f t he c o m p a n y ? I would answer that, yes, also in the context that t h e s e n s e o-f t h i s --w h e n t h e y sa y "receiving waters," they're talking about the fish, swimming in the receiving waters, they are talking about the sed i m e n t s in the r eceiv- 904555 THE DEPO DEPOT (812) 331-2466 T r s w i 1/ *t iW r n n M r i f a n / Or thy Hr* _ P H Ro y 1AFi4 -R lnnm inntnri In d ia n a 4 7 4 0 9 1 2 3 4 5 Q. <S 7 8 9 to 11 12 13 14 15 l a A. 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 za ing waters -- crayfish, whatever. We cer t a i n l y did t h o s e s o r t s o-f samples. We did not do, to my recollection, any grab samples of receiving waters themselves. On p a g e 13, p a r a g r a p h 9, the p a r a g r a p h states: MA11 o c c a s i o n s ( including spills) o-f w h i c h y o u are aware, on which P.C.B. compounds or m i x tures have or may have been introduced into the envir o n m e n t . . . " and then it has a further description. You d e s c ribed a leak of some 2, 0 0 0 or t h o u s a n d s of gallons, whatever, f r o m a tank at S h a r o n , F'e n n s y 1vania. My readi ng of this report makes no reference to that par ticular spill. Would you agree that i t 7s not referenced? 1 don't s e e any i n d i c a t i o n of it. I was t o l d there was such a spill. I certainly w a s n 't t h e r e at t h e time. In ad d i t i o n , I was a l s o told there were a number of occasions when the railway car supplying P.C.B.s to the Blooming ton plant, as it sat on the siding adjacent to the plant, was in fact observed to be leaking. I did some sampling in the ditch and c e r t a i n l y found P . C . B . s and tr a c e d movem e n t of P.C.B.s for a considerable distance away from iHE DEP0 DEPOT marri IfnuHQnn - Nntarw Pnhfin P 904556 (812) 331-2466 14& 4 Rlnm innton. Indiana 47409 1 2 C. 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 lO 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 A. 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 37 that site. P a r a g r a p h lO, on p a g e 13, a s k s t h e question: "A description of any adverse health or en vironmental effects, which you know or believe to h a v e r e s u l t e d f r o m the i n t r o d u c t i o n of the P.C.E:. c o m p o u n d s or m i x t u r e s into the e n v i r o n ment, indicate any specific occasions includ ing dates, times, locations, amounts, and parties involved, for which such effects are known?" And the answer is: "We do not h a v e any direct knowledge of any adverse health or environmental effects resulting from these compounds being introduced into the environ ment." Would that be contrary, Dr. Munson, to the information which you obtained with regard to P.C.B. levels in fish in Richland Creek? I would assume that one would assume a high level of P.C.B. in a f i s h to be an a d v e r s e environmental effect. Now, whether or not these P.C.B.s were causing the farmers' pigs to have poor reproduction is a speculation on my part. I think the overwhelming scientific e v i d e n c e would s u g g e s t that t h a t 's the case. I would assume in court you would have to say t h a t 's not proven, but we certainly knew of 904557 THE DEPO DEPOT (812) 331-2466 7V* (/ Mir/o/vi -A/nion/D, X n R r w X d R A P//HAmnnrfnn I n r l i a n a A T d D O 1 2 3 4 Q. 5 6 7 8 A. 9 Q. lO 11 A. 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 Q. 20 21 2 2 A. 23 24 25 38 high l e v e l s o-f F'.C.B.s in - f i s h --in s e d i m e n t s --and to t h e best o-F our belie-f, t h e s o u r c e o-f t h o s e F'.C. B.s was the W e s t i n g h o u s e plant. There was a l s o a m e a s u r e m e n t in your r e port of levels on the Westinghouse property itself, and I b e l i e v e o n e level wa s q u i t e e l e v a t e d -6,300 parts per million... Yeah. .Mould you consider that to be an adverse environmental effect? I w o u l d t h i n k so. I-f y o u go out and s a m p l e a -field s o m e w h e r e w h e r e n o t h i n g but a t m o s p h e r i c -fall out o-f F'.C. B.s ha s t a k e n place, y o u 're looking at levels down around .O 1 p.p.m. Now, one could argue whether or not that 6,000 p.p.m. there, at greater than 6,000 was h u r t ing any t h i n g . It c e r t a i n l y h a s the p o t e n t i a l , d e p e n d i n g up o n what b e c o m e s o-f that soil. And the s a m e w o u l d be a p p l i c a b l e to tes t BL.-- 16, 1,470, w h i c h w a s at a ditch, I b e l i e v e , -fairly c l o s e to the ra i l r o a d . Yes. Any o-f t h e s e w o u l d c o n c e r n me, b e c a u s e t h e y are in the -flow p a t t e r n s w h e r e s u r f a c e water is going to leave the area on heavy r a i n s --c a r r i e d o-f-f into s t r e a m s --- and 904558 FHE DEP0 DEPOT (812) 331-2466 Terri Knudson - Notarv Public - P.O. Box 1-154 -'Bloomington, Indiana 47402 1 2 Q. 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 lO 11 12 13 14 A. IS 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. 39 u l t i m a t e l y get i n t o t h e b i o l o g i c a l -food chain. Dr. Munson, Mr. W e s t l a k e w r o t e a letter to Dale and Connie Conard which is dated October 29, 1982, and it was in response to a letter written to Westinghouse by Dale Conard, dated O c t o b e r 18, 1982. In t h e letter -from Mr. Westlake, he states: "We have not previously b een in-formed o-f any e v i d e n c e o-f e l e v a t e d c o n c e n t r a t i o n s o-f P . C . B . s in R i c h l a n d Creek, either adjacent to Valley View Farms or elsewhere." Based upon the testing which you did, as r e p o r t e d in your report, would that statement be inconsistent with your data? Certai n l y . I t hink i-f t h e --by "we," he means he had not been informed, that could well be true. P e r h a p s h e w a s n 't i n - f o r m e d -s o m e y e a r s had g o n e by. I-f by "we, " h e m e a n s Westinghouse Electric Corporation, t h a t 's totally untrue. They were certainly informed. T h e y had t h e d a t a -from my s a m pling. In -fact, they were in-formed clear up to the top level o-f the c o r p o r a t i o n , e v i d e n c e d by t h e r e p o r t s that were sent by headquarters. BRIEFLY "OFF THE RECORD" Did y o u keep r e c o r d b o o k s w h e n y o u w o r k e d -for 904559 FHE DEPO DEPOT (812) 331-2466 Terri Knudson - Notarv'-Public- P .0. B t. 1454- Bloomington, Indiana 47402 1 2 3 A. 4 5 6 7 8 9 lO 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 40 Mestinghouse, and will you tell us what a record book is? Yes. Our laboratory was part of the W e s t i n g house Research and Development Laboratories in P i t t s b u r g h , P e n n s y 1 v a n i a . I *m not s u r e h o w many years the R and D Lab had been in e x i s tence, but long enough to get very systema tized. One of the t hings they did, b e c a u s e of the potential of d e v e l o p i n g p a t e n t a b l e m a t e rial, is e v e r y e n g i n e e r -- we w e r e all c o n s i d e r e d e n g i n e e r s -- w h o w a s at t he R and D Lab was issued a record book that had its own serial number. This was a cloth bound book, larger than 8 1/2 x 11 -- in fact, larger t h a n a legal pad size, by being a little bit wider --b l a c k bound. T h e y w e r e p u b 1 ished -- I 7m not sure who made them. They were made speci fically for Westinghouse. They had the West-- inghouse logo on the outside and talked about Westinghouse R and D and their goals, and history, and that sort of thing on the inside cover. They were, I believe, 190 pages long. They were really dandy research notebooks, r v e been trying to find something like them for y e ars and h a v e not been a b l e to- But, 904560 THE DEP0 DEPOT , (812) 331-2466 Tarr! k'mirlcnn -Nntsn/ Ptihlin -PT?. S o - 7 4 5 4 . Blnnmhaton. Indiana 47402 41 1 each one had its own serial number. They 2 were checked out to you by serial number, and 3 you w e r e s u p p o s e d to keep your d a i l y rec o r d of 4 a c t i v i t i e s ---For all of us w h o w e r e e s s e n 5 t i a l l y s c i e n t i s t s w o r k i n g at t h e lab b e n c h --- 6 in these books, sign every page, date every 7 page- I-F t h e r e w a s s o m e t h i n g that s e e m e d 8 p o t e n t i a l l y use-Ful, f r o m t h e p o i n t of v i e w of 9 patent, there were signature areas for wit lO nesses. I used them a few times when I was 11 d o i n g s o m e t h i n g of that nature- I 'm not s u r e 12 e x a c t l y how many of t h e m I fill e d out over the 13 years. I know I used several of them, s p e c i 14 fically, for r e c o r d i n g t h e s a m p l e s as I c o l 15 lected them. When I went to the field to 16 collect, I took a record book with me. The 17 s a m p l e s w e r e g i v e n a c o d e n u m b e r in th e field, 18 th a t n u m b e r e n t e r e d i n t o the r e c o r d book. I 19 had o t h e r r e c o r d b o o k s that I u s e d as a d a i l y 20 jour n a l . My practice as a scientist is that I 21 keep a daily journal where each day I enter 2 2 what I 'm doing in the laboratory, try to write 23 it in s u c h a m a n n e r that s o m e o n e e l s e c o u l d 24 c o m e alo n g y e a r s later and r ead it and u n d e r 25 stand what I was doing. When I left W e s t i n g -- 904561 THE DEPO DEPOT (812) 331-2466 Tnrr iWenn - Nntan/ PiiHlin 7 O f - D Y 1 4 5 4 - R ln n m in n tn n In d ia n a 4 7 4 0 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 lO 11 12 13 14 IS 16 17 Q. 18 19 20 A. 21 22 23 24 25 42 h o u s e -- I had w o r k e d t h e r e s e v e n y e a r s -- I had worked on many projects. Probably, most o-f the t i m e was d o i n g ma t e r i a l that w a s open to t he p u b l i c --p u b l i s h a b l e --- and much o-f it had been published. But they would not let me t a k e any o-f t h o s e r e c o r d b o o k s w i t h me. T h e y said: "These are Westinghouse property. You must leave them behind." I was most unhappy to do that, because to a scientist, his per sonal n o t e s in t h e l a b o r a t o r y a r e a r e c o r d o-f his life. But I had to leave those behind and all o-f t h e p a p e r w o r k that had to do w i t h t h e P.C. B. work. I left it in -file c a b i n e t s in the building at the Bay Bridge site that was being used at the time by the Westinghouse Ocean Research Laboratory. Did the attorneys in New York, when they talked with you in late 1987, I believe, make reference to those books? Actual l y , t h e y d i d n 't. What a c t u a l l y h a p p e n e d was before I went to New York, when we were t a l kin g about it over the telephone, they a s k e d m e if I had a n y o-f t h e r e p o r t s c o n c e r n ing t h e P.C.B. survey, and I said: "O-f c o u r s e not. Those were all c ompany proprietary. I 904562 'HE DEPO DEPOT (812) 331-2466 i s Wrnn - A/n+an/ D# _ 0/1 P n y 14RA . Rlnnminntnn Indiana 4 7 4 0 ? 43 1 was not a l l o w e d -- e v e n by law, I g u e s s -- to 2 h a v e t h e m in my h a n d s whe n I le-Ft the c o m 3 pany. " And they said: "Do you have anything 4 pertaining to the survey'?" And I said: "As a 5 m a t t e r o-F -Fact, I do." I had on e r e c o r d b o o k 6 that had been used as a sample record book to 7 r e c o r d the c o l l e c t i o n o-F samples. I still had 8 it. with me, b e c a u s e at t h e t i m e I le-Ft to go 9 to E.P.A., I w as w r i t i n g a r e p o r t and s o m e o-F IO the sample numbers were still in there. I 11 s i m p l y -Forgot to r e t u r n it. So, all t h e s e 12 y e a r s I had had it on my shel-F. So, they 13 a s k e d that I b r i n g it to N e w York, and so I 14 b r o u g h t it with me. In N e w York, t h e y w e r e 15 u n a w a r e o-F the p r e s e n c e o-F original r e c o r d 1a books. I think, being lawyers and not sci e n 17 tists, it just didn't occur to them that there 18 w e r e suc h things. So, I told t h e m a b o u t t h e 19 r e c o r d books. I told t h e m w h e r e t h e y m i g h t 20 be, and I suggested that they c o n t a c t . . . W e l l , 21 First. . . I le-ft th e r e c o r d book with them, so 22 now I have nothing that belonged to Westing- 23 house. I suggested that he contact Mr. Dick 24 Usury, w h o I b e l i e v e is still w o r k i n g -- 25 that's U-S--U--R-Y at the Westinghouse Ocea- 904563 rHE DEPO DEPOT , (812) 331-2466 rVarrr i^nnWcnn . hintan/ Diihlin J o D ?nyTARA Dlnjesminntnn InHiana ATADO 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Q. 9 lO 11 12 A. 13 14 IS 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 44 nic Division in Annapolis, Maryland, at the Bay Bridge site, because at the time I finally left -- the m a n a g e m e n t s t r u c t u r e had b e e n r e structured quite a few t i m e s -- I believe Dick Usury may have actually been my boss at the time I left, and I thought he might know where those record books were. When you reviewed the report relating to Bloomington, Indiana, with the attorneys in N e w York, wa s t h e r e any i n f o r m a t i o n -- t y p e written -- relative to P.C.B. levels in fish? I don't t h i n k so. It had bee n a long t i m e since I had seen the report, and in r e f l e c t i n g on it later and in looking at the report you sent me, I d o n 't think I 'm p r e p a r e d to swear to that in court, but I have the definite f e e l i n g t h a t t h e y d i d n 't 's h o w me t h e e n t i r e report. That I was actually, in fact, looking at sections that were stapled together, b e cause I was looking for the fish data because in the m o r n i n g when th e y asked me questions, I told them: " W e had sampled fish from the White River that we had gotten commercially." I had always been concerned because we found levels that exceeded the F.D.A. consumption 904564 THE DEPO DEPOT , (812) 331-2466 Torn Knurlson - Natan/ Public - P.G. Box` >454 - Bhbminoton. Indiana 47402 1 2 3 4 5 Q. S 7 8 9 IO 11 12 13 14 15 IS 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 A. 24 25 45 limit and we had not reported that infor mation. I didn't see it in the report they game me and I thought my memory was playing t ricks on me. In d o in g our work, we c a m e a c r o s s a d o c u m e n t dat e d J a n u a r y 15, 1972. T h i s d o c u m e n t is generally called an "Indemnity Agreement." An Indemn i t y A g r e e m e n t is an u n d e r t a k i n g in w h i c h o n e p a r t y a g r e e s to p a y t he c l a i m s of another party in the event of a law suit. This particular document, by agreement, es tablishes that West inghouse undertook to indemnify M o n s a n t o for any and all losses or damage to the environment or human health, after the date of the agreement. I hav e n e ver met an individual in d e p o sitions who has known about this document. I have deposed Lou Shove. I've d e p o s e d Bob A n d e r s o n -- a n u m b e r of W e s t i n g h o u s e people. And I would be quite confident that this is the first time you've seen it. I w o u l d ask if y o u h a v e e v e r h e a r d of any con v e r s a t i o n about such an a g r e e m e n t 0 It c e r t a i n l y d o e s n ' t r i n g a bell wit h me, at all. I can't imagine why Westinghouse would want to do that. I d o n't r e m e m b e r an y t h i n g at 904565 THE DEPO DEPOT I (812) 331-2466 * r. i . a rv*. n ~ 1ar -K r^r--- A"7a 1 2 3 Q. 4 5 6 7 A. _8 9 lO 11 12 13 14 Q. 15 A. 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. 46 all about such an agreement. BRIEFLY MOFF THE RECORD" Dr. Munson, this is another document o f the many hundreds that we have indexed, which is a m e m o r a n d u m dated August 29, 1975. I t ?s f r o m Floyd Biehn to Sauter, B r i t t a i n and ftcClain. Yes. Well, basically, I had exactly those s ame orders, by t h e way. In oth e r words, I certainly could not answer any question by a n y b o d y f r o m o u t s i d e t h e c o r p o r a t i o n . In fact, even inside the corporation. Unless that person had a need to know about the survey, I was to tell them nothing. Was that a standing... Absolutely. As I mentioned to you in writing, the d is t r i b u t i o n of the r e p o r t s was very closely held. I had a list of who was to r e c e i v e them. I p r e p a r e d t h e reports, per-- sonally. I stamped them "Proprietary Class 1," p e r s o n a l l y -- all th e copies. So, eac h copy that was distributed by me had the big red ink s t a m p on it- A n y t h i n g that ever appeared after that, that d i d n 't have that red stamp, was a copy that somebody made. Lastly, Dr. Munson, t h ere is a document which 904566 THE DEPO DEPOT (812) 331-2466 Terri Knudson Notary Public P 0 . Box 1454 - Bloomington, Indiana 47402 47 1 is t i t l e d " N . E . M . A . " --N - E - M - A --- "Official 2 Standards Proposal -" On page three, under the 3 c a p t i o n "Water E f f l u e n t -- S a m p l i n g C o n c e n t r a 4 tion Limits and Analytical Procedures" 5 -- it states, "The i n d u s t r y goal is to e l i m i 6 nate askarels, which is P.C.Bs in plant water 7 e f f l u e n t streams. However, it is r e c o g n i z e d 8 that e x i s t i n g d r a i n s y s t e m s -from m a n u f a c t u r i n g 9 plants, repair shops, and installation sites, lO m a y be c o n t a m i n a t e d as a r e s u l t o-f past p r a c 11 tices. O t h e r s e c t i o n s o-f t h i s g u i d e p r o v i d e 12 that no a s k a r e l s waste, o-f any kind, be d i s 13 p o s e d o-f in a n y w a t e r e f f l u e n t streams, and 14 that a c c i d e n t s p i l l s be p r e v e n t e d -from g e t t i n g 15 into such s t r e a m s . " Then it s t a t e s that: 16 "The E.P.A., in 1972, proposed to keep P.C.B. 17 l e v e l s in r i v e r s and l a k e s b e l o w 0.01 p a r t s 18 per b i l l i o n . " It states: "Plant e f f l u e n t 19 s t r e a m s s h o u l d be m a n a g e d and control 1ed in a 20 manner consistent with this goal." My ques 21 tion w o u l d be this: At t h e C o n a r d -farm, t h e r e 2 2 is d r a i n a g e o-f w a t e r -from N e a l ' s Land-fill, 23 t h r o u g h what I cal 1, wet w e a t h e r spri n g s - The 24 p r o p o s e d level -for P.C.B. e f f l u e n t -from t h o s e 25 s t r e a m s is one part per billion. T h e r e are no 904567 THE DEPO DEPOT (812) 331-2466 Terri Knudson - Notary Public - P.O.ff ox 1454 - Bloomington, Indiana 47402 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 lO 11 12 A. 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 48 o t h e r s o u r c e s o-f w a t e r into that stream, oth e r than natural drainage. Mould the one part per billi o n , that is e s t a b l i s h e d -for t h e effluent, appear to be inconsistent with this level, r e c o g n i z i n g that w h a t c o m e s out o-f a p i p e merges with the stream and therefore, as I u n d e r s t a n d it, c a l c u l a t i o n s w o u l d h a v e to be made as to the relative c o n t r i b u t i o n , but, distinguishing that particular phenomenon, or m e r g i n g o-f water, in t h e C o n a r d s i t u a t i o n where wet weather springs are the sole source? Yeah. It l o o k s to me like, t h e way t h i s reads, that i-f a p l a n t is d i s c h a r g i n g a F'.C.B. containing effluent into a stream, they're a l l o w e d to c a l c u l a t e t h e a m o u n t o-f -flow the y are p u t t i n g in, t h e a m o u n t o-f -flow in th e stream, and a d i l u t i o n -factor, and then d i s c h a r g e m o r e than .O 1 part per billion, as long as the combined effluent plus river is below .O 1. Now, in the C o n a r d case, this a p p e a r s totally inconsistent to w h a t 's happening over there. It a p p e a r s as t h o u g h the total -flow of t he w a t e r -- w h a t 's n o w c a l l e d C o n a r d 's B r a n c h -- actually is water that has come from the land fill a r e a and that that f l o w -- if t h e y 904568 THE DEPO DEPOT (812) 331-2466 TerriKnudson Notary Publit P.0. Box 1454- Bloomington, Indiana 47402 1 2 3 4 5 6 Q. 7 8 9 A. l O Q. 11 12 13 14 IS 16 17 18 19 20 21 2 2 A. 23 24 25 49 are t a l k i n g a bout that -flow -from the land -fill -- being at 1 part per billion, clearly then t h e y 're t a l k i n g a b o u t a level 100 t i m e s h i g h e r than t h i s level p r o p o s e d by N.E.M.A. -for rivers and lakes. And that level was at 72, compared to the 1 part per billion, which was reached in 1985. So t h e r e w o u l d be a 13 year di-ff erential .. . Oh, yes. One other question. With regard to the water flow and P.C.B. c o n c e n t r a t i o n s , per c u b i c -foot o-f water. .. A s s u m i n g that the -flow o-f w a t e r from t h e wet w e a t h e r s p r i n g s -- that e s s e n -- ti a l 1y drai n N e a l 's L a n d Fill -- i s o n e c u b i c foot or less per second without rain-fall, but that d u r i n g t i m e s o-f h e a v y rain, that -flow ca n i n c r e a s e to 30 -feet per s e c o n d a n d e v e n o n e m e a s u r e m e n t o-f 72 c u b i c -feet o-f w a t e r per second. W o u l d you e x p e c t t h e c o n c e n t r a t i o n o-f P . C . B . s to be less or g r e a t e r per c u b i c -foot o-f w a t e r w i t h the i n c r e a s e d -flow per second'? I as I see that situation, there are several t h i n g s that m i g h t t a k e place. In t a l k i n g w i t h Mr. C a n a r d , he h a s t o l d us o-f p e r i o d s o-f v e r y h igh -flow, w h e n in -fact o i l y m a terial is 904569 FHE DEPO DEPOT (812) 331-2466 Terri Knudson- Notary Public - P.O .Box H -4 - Bloomington, Indiana 47402 50 1 deposited out on his land. Now, we might 2 e x p e c t that that land fill h a s p o o l s of o i 1 3 u n d e r n e a t h it. Now, w h e t h e r that oil -- s o m e 4 of it p e r h a p s -- m i g h t be m o t o r oil or m i n e r a l 5 oil, s o m e of it s u r e l y w o u l d be Inertine. In a any event, there probably is oily material 7 under the land fill that is highly contami 8 n a t e d wi t h P.C.B.s, in fact, if it isn't 9 P.C.B. fluid itself. On the one hand we could lO imagin e high flow c o n d i t i o n s which would in 11 fact b r i n g t h i s oil out a c r o s s t h i s land, 12 w h i c h w o u l d be d e v a s t a t i n g f r o m the point of 13 v i e w of c o n t a m i n a t i o n of P.C.B.s. I mean, 14 t h o s e l e v e l s w o u l d just be a s t r o n o m i c a l l y 15 high. But, if we put that c a s e a s i d e and l a supposed that no such oily material were to 17 c o m e out, and just c o n s i d e r t r a n s p o r t in the 18 w a t e r itself and the s u s p e n d e d p a r t i c u l a t e in 19 t h e water, if d u r i n g th e low f l o w c o n d i t i o n 2 0 the wa t e r is c l e a r e r -- in o t h e r words, has 21 less s e d i m e n t in it t h a n it doe s d u r i n g the 22 high flow condition and I'm guessing this 23 would be the case. I've seen some high flo w 24 p h o t o g r a p h s and the w a t e r loo k s v e r y brown, 25 v e r y t u r b i d -- the s e d i m e n t s i n s i d e th e land rHE DEPO DEPOT farri ISm irlenn - A/nfan/ Dfih//r . P O Roy 904570 (812) 331-2466 & lr\rs m in n tn n In H ia n a A"7ADO 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 O Q. 11 2 13 14 15 16 17 18 A. 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 51 fill, you w o u l d e x p e c t t h e m to b e c o n t a m i n a t e d with F.C.B.s. And I would expect that it's those sediments being carried out by the water s t r e a m t h a t will r e s u l t in -- a s i d e -from o i l y materi a l , w h i c h is a t o t a l l y d i f f e r e n t c a s e -the transport. So, any c o n d i t i o n that r e s u l t s in b r i n g i n g m o r e s e d i m e n t s out o-f the land fill o n t o t h e C o n a r d ' s p r o p e r t y , is g o i n g to result in bringing more P.C.B. out. As a scientist with your experience in testing -for P . C . B . s and p e r f o r m i n g g a s c h r o m a t o g r a p h y , and all o t h e r -facets o-f your e d u c a t i o n , t r a i n ing and experience, what would you -foresee with r e s p e c t to p r o b l e m s o-f P.C.B. c o n t a m i n a tion o-f C o n a r d ' s Branch, r e s u l t i n g -from t he e x c a v a t i o n o-f t h e 2 2 0 , 0 0 0 c u b i c y a r d s o-f c o n t a m i n a t e d soil, -from N e a l ' s L a n d F i l l ? My e x p e r i e n c e , o-f course, is b a s e d upon wo r k t hat I've d o n e l o o k i n g at m o v e m e n t o-f s e d i ments that contain P.C.B.s in a echo s y stem like Chesapeake. Also, when I worked with E . P . A . , I've been involved in some o p e r a t i o n s w h e r e c o n t r a c t o r s a r e r e m o v i n g land -fill m a t e r i a l and that sort o-f thing. I t h i n k that e ven u n d e r t h e b e s t -- t h e m o s t well d e s i g n e d 904571 FHE DEP0 DEPOT . (812) 331-2466 Terri Knudson - Notary Public - P .0. Box 1454 - EU!omington, Indiana 47402 1 -- program that you can imagine, considering 2 t h e c l o s e p r o x i m i t y of the land -fill p r o p e r t y 3 to the Conard's and the topography -- the fact 4 that i t ?s h i g h e r up on t h e hill -- and the 5 fact that i t 's going to have to be totally a excavated to take out the capacitors, even 7 under the best c o n d i t i o n s it seems very u n 8 likely to me the material is not going to 9 escape that site and be carried across the l O C o n a r d 's property. Now, the thing that's 11 r e a l l y d i s t r e s s i n g is, we know w h a t to expect. 12 Me know that a contractor will be hired . The 13 c o n t r a c t o r hi m s e l f will be giv e n the r e s p o n 14 sibility for monitoring his activities. And 15 he'll be a b u s i n e s s m a n with s c h e d u l e s to meet, i a salaries to pay, and he will do the least that 17 he has to dp -- that he feels he can do. And 18 ev e n t h o u g h he may be t he mo s t w e l l - m e a n i n g 19 human being, he's going to have some doubt in 20 his mind about how toxic this stuff really is 21 and h e ' s not g o i n g to w o r r y a bout it to o much. 2 2 If n o b o d y ' s looking, and a l i t t l e f l o w s over, 23 h e ' s not g o i n g to w o r r y a b o u t it. I w o u l d bet 24 a lot of m o n e y that the C o n a r d ' s p r o p e r t y is 25 going to be h e a v i l y impacted. 904572 THE DEPO DEPOT (812) 331-2466 Terri Knudson Notary Public - P.O. B a : 1454 - Blbomington, Indiana 47402 1 Q. 2 3 4 5 a 7 8 9 IO 11 12 13 14 A. 15 Q. 16 17 18 19 20 21 A. 2 2 Q. 23 A. 24 G. 25 A. Dr. Munson, whe n we met. we did not h a v e a p h o t o g r a p h and today it has been given to us, of t h e C o n a r d pr o p e r t y , w h i c h we visited. This is the house where you met Dale and Connie. This is C o n a r d 's Branch which is reflected in the sunlight to some extent. T his is the c l a y cap on th e land -fill. T h i s road is where we stopped at the gate. Over here is Johnny C o u g a r 's little pink house. Then, you have Highway 48 at the top, and h e r e 's t he hog -farm w h e r e t he p i g s and c a t t l e reported the problems with the livestock. Would that be correct? Yes. T h a t 's the place. Now, this shows that the area is 18 acres. It's carse-- -fractured limestone. There was surface soil contamination of 219,000 parts per million, ground water 9.6 parts per bil lion, surface water 9.77, stream sediment 1,700. Where was that taken? R i g h t ... Okay. Just down the slope. From here to here. Okay. 904573 THE DEP0 DEPOT {812) 331-2466 Torn Knndonn - AIntan/ Pt**>*!'*-P!0. Rft ' l4F>d Innmrnntnn Indiana 7400 54 --and t h e -fish wit h 27 9 p a r t s per million, which I b e l i e v e Don .Ste-f i k d i s c u s s e d with y o u yesterday. Uh--huh. Th e e s t i m a t e o-f total v o l u m e to be e x c a v a t e d --and I wa s off by a 1 0 0 , 0 0 0 cub i c y a r d s -- is 320,000 cubic yards- Would those physical statistics rein-force your earlier statement as to the potential problems'? Sure- Now, as I look at the photograph, you can see it coming- What will happen is the site will be designed with suitable catchment basins so that the leach egg that is running out of the thing n a t u r a l l y will be caught and the sediment will be captured, hopefully, and the effluent that gets into the creek maybe will be low in P-C-Bs- Alt h o u g h , if t h e y r u p t u r e a c a p a c i t o r or if t h e r e ' s a barrel of P-C-B.s that rupture, and that gets into the s y s t e m of t h e w a t e r flow, what a r e t h e y goi n g to do? But, even assuming that doesn't hap pen -- best p o s s i b l e case, n o t h i n g r u p t u r e s -they're going to be working there one day and there's going to be a thunder storm with a t h r e e inch r a i n f a l l -- an act of God. And we 904574 >EPO DEPOT (812) 331-2466 dson - Notan/'Public ?P I lB o x i4 5 4 - Bloominaton. Indiana 47402 1 will just have to look the other way -- as a 2 contractor -- because we surely can't be 3 e x p e c t e d to control that. And t h a t 's just 4 going to devastate this area down here on the 5 C o n a r d 's -farm. It will just w a s h the w h o l e S shootin' m a t c h o-f-f t h e h i l l s i d e down `o n t o 7 t h e i r -farm. We'll all be v e r y sorry, and 8 we'll clean up the best we can and start over 9 again. IO Q. Here's another photograph, Dr. Munson. This 11 s h o w s w h e r e we p a r k e d t h e car, and t h i s is th e 12 clay cap which Mr. Foster supervised the... 13 A. One problem here is that there really isn't 14 enough land here to make catchment basins that 15 a r e g o i n g to h a n d l e t h e kind o-f run o-f-f y o u 'll 16 h a v e w h e n t h e rain c o m e s -- d i k e s will break, 17 s y s t e m s will over-flow. It's a c o m m o n story. 18 T h e c o n t r a c t o r g e t s o-f-f t h e h o o k b e c a u s e he 19 says i t 's an act o-f G o d --he had no cont r o l 2 0 over it. 21 MR. MCCREAs 22 That'sit. 23 24 Dr. T h o m a s . M u n s o n 25 904575 FHE DEPO DEPOT (812) 331-2466 Terri Knudson - Notary Public -P .0 . Bex 14S4- Bloomington, Indiana 47402 STATE OF INDIANA COUNTY OF HONROE ) SS: ) I, TERRI K. KNUDSON, a N o t a r y P u b l i c in and for the S t a te of Indiana, do h e r e b y c e r t i f y that the f o r e g o i n g is a true and accurate, computer-aided transcript of any and all testimony, as taken electronically and supported by uritten notes by and b e f o r e me of the s t a t e m e n t of Dr. T. 0. Hunson, C h e m i s t r y P r o f es s or , St. C l o u d S t a t e Uni ve rs it y, St. Cloud, Minn es ot a, in the law offices of McCrea and McCrea, located at 119 South Walnut Street, Bloomington, Monroe County, Indiana, on S atur day, A u g us t 13, 1988, in the p r e s e n c e of the p a r t i e s h e r e i n before stated. I further certify that I am not related to nor employed by any of the parties or attorneys involved, nor do I have any p e r s o n a l inte re st w h a t s o e v e r in the o u t c o m e of any li ti ga ti on involving this statement. TERRI K. KNUDSON', N o t a r y P ub l i c Hy Commission expires 5-17-1991 904576 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OP INDIANA 24 INDIANAPOLIS DIVISION 3 4 DALE CONARD and CONNIE CONARD ) > 5 Plaintiffs, ) ) 6 -vs- > CASE NO IP84-1667-C ) 7 WESTINGHOUSE ELECTRIC ) CORPORATION, ) 8) Defendant. ) 9 10 11 12 13 The deposition upon oral examination of THOMAS OREN 14 M U N S O N , a w i t n e s s p r o d u c e d a n d s w o r n b e f o r e me, B e v e r l y S. Evans, a N o t a r y P u b l i c in and for the C o u n t y of Marion. 15 State of Indiana, t a k e n on b e h a l f of the D e f e n d a n t at the law offices of Baker & Daniels, Indiana National Bank 16 Tower. 15th Floor, I n d i a n a p o l i s , M a r i o n County. Indiana, on the 30th of Novem b e r , 1988, c o m m e n c i n g at the hour of 9:30 17 a.m., p u r s u a n t to the F e d e r a l R u l e s of Civ i l P r o c e d u r e w i t h written Notice as to time and place. 18 19 20 21 J O H N E. C O N N O R & A S S O C I A T E S , INC. 22 1 8 6 0 O N E A M E R I C A N S Q U A R E INDIANAPOLIS. IN 46282 23 (317) 6 3 2 - 5 5 3 3 904577 ----------- - ;------------------ ------ ----------- " ----- :-- 2 1 APPEARANCES 2 3 THE PLAINTIFFS: 4 5 6 7 8 D a v i d S. M c C r e a McCREA & McCREA 1 1 9 S. W a l n u t S t r e e t P. 0. B o x 1 3 1 0 B l o o m i n g t o n . IN 47402 and YOUNG & YOUNG H o w a r d S. Y o u n g . Jr. 128 N. D e l a w a r e Indianapolis, IN 46204 $ THE DEFENDANT:' 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 ALSO PRESENT: 17 Jan Feldman PHELAN, POPE & JOHN. LTD. 180 N. W a c k e r Drive. Suite 500 Chicago, IL 60606 and Eric Ordway W E I L . COTSHAL & MANGES 767 Fifth Avenue New Y o r k . NY 10153 and J o s e p h B. C a r n e y BAKER & DANIELS 810 Fletcher Trust Buildina Indianapolis. IN 46204-2454 S t u a r t A. C u r r y 18 19 I N D E X O F E X A M I N A T I O N 20 P a a s 21 D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N . ........ . ...... . . ....... . . . . . . . ....... 4 Questions by Mr. Jan Feldman 22 D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N ( R e s u m e d ) . . . . .... . ............ ...... . 31 Questions by Hr. Jan Feldman 23 904578 1 INDEX OP E X H I B I T S 2 Page 3 Defendant' Deposition Exhibit No.: 4 1 - Copy of depo subpoena, rider, check and notice to M u n s o n . ........................ . ........... . 4 5 2 - Six-page compilation of correspondence between M u n s o n a n d M c C r e a .................................... . 7 6 3 - P a g e e n t i t l e d E x h i b i t s .............. . ............. . 14 4 - 8 / 3 / 8 8 t w o - p a g e l e t t e r f r o m M c C r e a to M u n s o n ... 19 7 5 - C u r r i c u l u m v i t a e of Dr. M u n s o n ......... ........... 25 6 - M u n s o n a p p l i c a t i o n f o r j o b w i t h F B I ........... . .. 62 8 7 - Draft of Portion of W e s t i n g h o u s e Response of EPA P C B E f f l u e n t S t a n d a r d s ..................... . ........ 75 9 8 - 5/16/88 letter to McCrea from Munson ........... 116 9 - 8/11/88 letter to McCrea from Munson with 10 a t t a c h m e n t s ............... 120 10 - 11/6 & 11/7/88 letters to McCrea from Munson.... 124 11 11 - 1 1/ 6. 1 1 / 7 & 8 / 2 4 / 8 8 l e t t e r s to M c C r e a f r o m M u n s o n ................................ 12 12 - 11/3/88 letter to Mu n s o n from Mc C r e a wi t h 132 a t t a c h m e n t s ............................... ....... . .... 1 33 13 13 - 8 / 1 3 / 8 8 s t a t e m e n t of T. 0. M u n s o n ................ 1 3 5 14 - O u t l i n e of T e s t i m o n y of P l a i n t i f f s ' W i t n e s s e s .. 1 3 5 14 15 - P l aintiffs' A n s w e r s To W e s t i n g h o u s e E l e c t r i c Corporation's Supplemental Interrogatories 15 C o n c e r n i n g E x p e r t T e s t i m o n y ...................... 135 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 904579 4 1 H_O.M..X S.. 0 R g N M U N S O N, h a v i n g b e e n f i r s t d u l y 2 worn to tell the truth, the whole truth and 3 nothing but the truth, relating to said matter, 4 was examined and testified as follows: 5 6 RECT EXAMINATION, 7 QUESTIONS BY MR. JAN FELDMAN: ' 8 (Defendant's Deposition Exhibit 1 was marked for 9 identification.) 10 Sir, w o uld you state your full name for the record and 11 s p e l l y o u r l a s t n a m e . 12 T h o m a s O r e n M u n s o n . M - u - n - s - o - n . 13 A n d it's Dr. Munson: is that right? 14 Yes. 15 Let the rec o r d r e f l e c t that this is a d e p o s i t i o n 16 p u r s u a n t to s u b p o e n a a n d n o t i c e of Dr. T h o m a s M u n s o n . 17 Dr. M u n s o n , y o u r e c e i v e d a c o p y of w h a t I 'm s h o w i n a v c u 18 is y o u r D e p o s i t i o n E x h i b i t No. 1; i s n 't t h a t r i a n t ? 19 Y e s . T h a t ' s r i g h t . 20' A n d d i d y o u h a v e a c h a n c e to l o o k o v e r t h e r i d e r to the 21 s ubpoena whi c h is Exh i b i t 1 bef o r e you came to your 22 d e p o s i t i o n t o d a y ? 23 Yes, I did. ___________________________________ - _____________ 904580 5 13 2 You're represented by your attorney, Mr. McCrea, here; is that correct? 3 k I don't know. 4 THE WITNESS: Are you representing me? 5 ^ (Continuing) I d o n 't k n o w the a n s w e r to that - q u e s t i o n . 6 2 In any event, either you or Mr. McCrea has brouaht with 7 you tod a y some d o c uments; is that c o rrect? 8 I Yes. 9 You have in front of you, I notice, a three-ring bin d e r 10 w h i c h d o e s n ' t l o o k l i k e o n e of m i n e 11 It's the same. I b e l i e v e this is all of the 12 i n f o r m a t i o n t ha t has b e e n p a s s e d to y o u 13 3 Now, w h a t I have b e f o r e me is ab o u t five i n ches of 14 material. And I just w a n t to go t h rough it to make 15 sure that this is what you i n t e n d e d to bring and that 16 it's e v e r y t h i n g . 17 k Okay. 18 Fir s t I have a -- Lat e r we m a y m a r k these as 19 exhibits -- I have a stapled document which begins with 20 t h e l e t t e r f r o m Mr. M c C r e a to y o u d a t e d M a y 20. 19 8S . 21 M i n e m a y n o t be in e x a c t l y t h e s a m e o r d e r as y o u r s . 22 That was May -- 904581 23 MR. McCREA: Could you show us the letter. 6 1 Lat is ask you a question while you're looking through 2 this. Did you compile these materials with the 3 a s s i s t a n c e of Mr. Cur r y who is s t a n d i n g be h i n d you now? 4 These materials? 5 Yes. 6 Mr. Curry I think probably compiled them. 7 Did he p r e s e n t you with a full pile of d o c u m e n t s which . 8 you were going to bring with you today in response to 9 the subpoena? 10 Y es . In o t h e r w o r d s . I a s k e d D a v i d w h a t I s h o u l d 11 b r i n g . D a v i d s ai d. "I h a v e e v e r y t h i n g t h a t h a s p a s s e d 12 b e t w e e n us. Let me put it t o g e t h e r . " See, X was 13 t r a v e l i n a . I ' v e b e e n a w a y . A n d I ' m .iust c o m i n g b a c k 14 t h r o u g h t o w n to be h e r e t o d a y . So, r a t h e r t h a n f o r m e 15 to b r i n a it all from my end. he s u p p l i e d it from his 16 end. 17 Is it fair to say you h a v e not d o n e any i n d e p e n d e n t 18 g a t h e r i n g of d o c u m e n t s in r e s p o n s e to the s u b p o e n a ? IS I t h i n k t h a t 's f a i r to s a y y e s . 20 MR. F E L D M A N : W e l l , w h y d o n ' t we m a r k t hi s 21 E x h i b i t 2. 22 (Defendant's Deposition Exhibit 2 was marked for 23 identification.) 904582 10 2 I'm i h o w l n ? y o u w h a t we h a v e just m a r k e d as E x h i b i t 2 which is a six-page document be g i n n i n g with the letter 3 I m e n t i o n e d e m i n u t e ago d a t e d May 20, 1988 from Mr. 4 McCrea to yourself. 5 T h e r e it is. Yes, I k n e w it was in there. This is 6 that same stapled document there. 7 0 Have you looked through the materials that were copied 8 and passed along to me to determine whether they were 9 10 A 11 0 complete and complied with the reguest for documents? Yes, I did. And did you determine that in fact they were complete? 12 A T h e y s e e m e d to be. yes. T h e o n e t h i n g I d i d n 't h a v e in 13 my stack when I went through it last niaht was this 14 lett e r he r e that has a c o u p l e of memos. I b e l i e v e this 15 is in -- 16 0 Is t h a t E x h i b i t 2? 17 A No. I t ' s a l a t e r o n e y o u 've g o t . B u t yes, I b e l i e v e 18 t h a t t h i s s t a c k of m a t e r i a l d o e s c o n t a i n all of th e IS i t e m s . 20 Q A n d d o y o u b e l i e v e t h a t b e c a u s e y o u l o o k e d at the r i d e r 21 to t h e s u b p o e n a t h a t y o u w e r e s e r v e d w i t h w h i c h we have 22 m a r k e d as E x h i b i t 1 a n d d e t e r m i n e d t h a t e v e r y t h i n g 23 m e n t i o n e d in this rider e xists in this pile of 904583 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 --- -----;----------- -- ----- ------------------ :--------------- ti aterala you have given ne today? Yea, I b e l i e v e so. I b e l i e v e so. When did you do that? I did that last evening. In other words, I got this information yesterday afternoon when I got into town, and I went through it last evening. Was that in Mr. McCrea's office? No. It was in my motel. Here in Indianapolis? In B l o o m i n a t o n . MR. M c Crea: jan. I will r e p r e s e n t to you that e v e r y t h i n o in this book is in your stack. MR. F E L D M A N : I a m a s s u m i n g t h a t 's the case. T h i s book m e a n i n g the t h r e e - r i n g b i n d e r that is in front of Dr. Munson? Yes, and other pieces. A l l r i g h t . G o i n g t h r o u a h t h i s a g a i n , y o u h a v e Given- me s o m e t h i n g w e ' v e m a r k e d as E x h i b i t 2 w h i c h is a six-paae d o c u m e n t c o n t a i n i n g two l e t t e r s to y o u f r o m Mr, McCrea; is that right? Yes. 904584 And a series of invoices w h i c h you sent to Mr. McCrea 1 for your services in this case? 9 2 A Yes. 3Q 4 I know you've been through this before, but let me just give you a little instru ct io n. You h ave to wait till I 5 f i n i s h m y Q u e s t i o n so she c a n t a k e it d o w n a nd i s n 't 6 t ak in g us both down at the same time. 7 A Okay. 8 Q Now, I find i n v o i c e s in E x h i b i t 2 d a t e d A uou st 11. 24 . 9 N o v e m b e r 6 a n d N o v e m b e r 7. Is t h a t a ll the i n v o i c e s 10 that there are? 11 A 12 0 13 I believe that's true, yes. And you've also prov ide d us with a copy of some th in g e n t i t l e d S t a t e m e n t of Dr. T. 0. M u n s o n , A u g u st 13 of /; 14 1988. I t a k e it t h a t Mr. M c C r e a h a d y o u in h i s o f f i c e 15 on that date: is that rioht? 16 A Yes . 17 0 A n d th e r e was a cou r t r e p o r t e r p r e s e n t ? 18 A I guess she was a court reporter, yes. 19 0 20 And he asked you Questions and you provided a n s w e r s . a n d th e c o u r t r e p o r t e r t o o k t h e m d o w n ; is th at right? 21 A 22 L e t 's see. We h a d it r e c o r d e d , I t h i n k , y e s And t hat's a 55-p a g e I don ' t w a n t to call it a 23 d e p o s i t i o n b u t fo r l a c k of a b e t t e r term: is that 904585 ----------- -------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------ -- --------------- -T U 1 right? 2 Wall, I di dn't count the pages. Yes, 55 plus the last 3 page. 4 A n d y o u 've a l s o p r o v i d e d us w i t h a c o p y of a r e p o r t 5 e n t i t l e d P r e l i m i n a r y R e p o r t of I n e r t e e n E n v i r on me nt a l 6 S u r v e y of B l o o m i n g t o n D i s t r i b u t i o n A p p a r a t u s Plant: is 7 that right? 8 Yes. S And the n e x t d o c u m e n t that I have is an a f f i d a v i t of 10 T h o m a s 0. M u n s o n , Ph . D . e x e c u t e d on A u a u s t 18, 1 9 7 $ 11 w i t h a c o v e r l e t t e r f r o m a Mr. H a l l of the E P A to 12 yours e l f ; is that right? 13 Yes . 14 That inc ludes and it looks like a c u r r i c u l u m v i t ae of 15 y o u r s e l f m a r k e d E x h i b i t A: is tha t r i g h t ? 16 Yes. 17 And then there is a d o c u m e n t e n t i t l e d Final R e p o r t PCS 18 S a m p l i n g and A n a l y s i s at S e l e c t e d S a n i t a r y L a n d f i l l 19 Sites d at e d May 25. 1976? 20 Ye s . 21 I n c l u d i n o an a p p e n d i x A w i t h c o v e r p a g e w h i c h has s o m e 22 h a n d w r i t i n g on it? 23 Yes. 904586 ---- ----------- --- ------------------------------ ----- -- --------------- -- X T 1 0 Is chat your handwriting? 2 A Yes. 3 Q When did you put that on there? 4 A I d o n 't r e m e m b e r . It's b e e n a I o n a tine ago. It 5 w a s n ' t this year, c e r t a i n l y . I d o n ' t th i n k so. 6 Q Okay. T ha t' s fine. Now, E xh i b i t A is ent it le d 7 Analytical Methods for Determining PCBs in Landfill 8 L e a c h a t e Samples and i nc l u d e s a nu mb er of paaes of PCB 9 analysis: is that right? 10 A Y e s . 11 Q T h e r e ' s an E x h i b i t B w h i c h i n c l u d e s s o m e m o r e PCB 12 a n a l y s i s ? 13 A Yes. 14 0 Then there is s o m e t h i n g c a l l e d M e t h o d for 15 P o l y c h l o r i n a t e d B i p h e n y l s in I n d u s t r i a l E f f l u e n t s . Is 16 c h a t a s e p a r a t e d o c u m e n t or is t h a t the one we h a v e 17 b e e n d i s c u s s i n g ? 18 A I b e l i e v e that is. 19 Q Doctor, take a look at my document. 20 A O k a y . T h a t p a g e is d i f f e r e n t t h a n my p a g e . O k a y . 21 T h a t m a y h a v e b e e n i n c l u d e d as in t h a t o r i g i n a l -- T his 22 w ho l e d o c u m e n t was a d o c u m e n t that I supplied to Rig 23 Hall of EPA; 904587 1 Called PCB Analytical Methodology? 17 2 The document starts back hare with that cover page and 3 then my affidavit and then the report. And I believe 4 it looks like these two pages of information here 5 a c t u a l l y b e l o n g in a p p e n d i x A. 6 Can you identify the two pages? 7 Oh, these were the -- 8 PCB analysis? 9 Yes. As you mentioned, there were some data sheets 10 t h e r e a n d t h e r e w a s a p p e n d i x -- O k a y . A p p e n d i x A h a d 11 those data sheets. I b e l i e v e a p p e n d i x B p r o b a b l v was 12 the PC B a n a l y t i c a l m e t h o d o l o g y . 13 All right. So, w e ' l l put the PCB a n a l y s i s back in w i t h 14 a p p e n d i x A? 15 Yes. I b e l i e v e t h o s e t w o p a g e s b e l o n g to a p p e n d i x A. 16 And a p p e n d i x B star t s w i t h -- I have two pag e s in f r o n t 17 of the p a g e y o u h e l d up. O k a y . 18 MR. FELDMAN: Let's go off the r ecord for IS a s e c o n d . 20 (A d i s c u s s i o n w a s h e l d o f f the r e c o r d . ) 21 D o c t o r , w e 've b e e n t r y i n g o f f th e r e c o r d to d e t e r m i n e 22 w h i c h p a g e s w e r e p a r t of the a f f i d a v i t w h i c h was 23 a t t a c h e d to the letter, from Mr. Hall to you. It 904588 ------ --------------------------------- --------------------- :----r r 1 d o e s n ' t have a data on it. A n d c or r e c t ne if I am 2 wrong. You indicated that appendix B would have bean 3 the two-page document PCB analytical methodology? 4 A 1 think so. 5 0 And then there was another attachment to the affidavit 6 rather than to the appendix entitled Method For 7 P o l y c h l o r i n a t e d B i p h e n y l s in I nd u s t r i a l Effluents. It 8 goes on for many p a c e s : is that right? 9 A I believe that's true. 10 Q I n c l u d i n g the t a b l e s . 11 A Yes. I b e l i e v e all of t h i s is p a r t of th e a f f i d a v i t 12 t h a t I s u p p l i e d to R i d g w a y H a l l . 13 Q W h e r e was this d o c u m e n t w h e n you s u p p l i e d it to Mr. 14 H c C r e a ? 15 A It was in my files. 1S Q Is the copy that you have in front of you the o r i g i n a l 17 that you ha v e in yo u r files or is that a co p y as w e l l ? 18 A I b e l i e v e this is a c o p y of the o r i g i n a l that I had in 19 my f i l e s . 20 Q T h e r e is a l s o an a p p e n d i x I at t he b a c k . Is it y o u r 21 u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h a t ' s p a r t o f th e N P D X ? 22 A Yes. that w o u l d be their appendix. 23 Q So, is it c o r r e c t to s a y t h e r e w e r e tw o a p p e n d i c e s to 904589 -- ;------ --- :---------- ----- ------ :-- :-- ----- ----;-- T 7 1 your affidavit A and B which contained other documents? 2 You mean different from the one here? 3 No. 4 Other than the affidavit itself, yes. I believe that's 5 the way it was organized, yes. 6 (Defendant's Deposition Exhibit 3 was marked for 7 identification.) - 8 You've also provided us with another group of S d o c u m e n t s . A n d I'm m a r k i n g the c o v e r page w h i c h is 10 l a b e l e d E x h i b i t s as y o u r d e p o s i t i o n E x h i b i t 3. Do y o u 11 see t h a t ? 12 Y e s . 13 A n d t h a t is a l i s t of e x h i b i t s A t h r o u g h V. a l t h o v a h . 14 e x h i b i t R s e e m s to be c r o s s e d ou t an d th e i n i t i a l s DS'M 15 w r i t t e n in; is that right? 16 Y e s . 17 And then are the doc uments that are behind Exhibit 3 18 the s ingle page all of the listed d o c u m e n t s ? IS I t h i n k so, yes. 20 W h a t is y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g of w h a t t h e s e d o c u m e n t s a r e ? 21 T h e s e ar e d o c u m e n t s w h i c h w e r e -- I b e l i e v e all of 22 t h e s e w e r e s u p p l i e d to me by D a v i d M c C r e a . 23 W h a t h a p p e n e d to e x h i b i t R w h i c h is not in my pile? 904590 ------ --- ----------- ------------------ --------;-- -- --------- r r 1 X X don't know. Lot's see. I think that was a 2 duplicate. Okay. Yes. I did not compile this page. 3 This page was compiled for me of this list of 4 documents. 5 0 L o o k at e x h i b i t F. 6 A O k a y . E x h i b i t F. O k a y . 7 0 Does it a ppear to you that e xh i b i t F was a d u p l i c a t e of 8 e x h i b i t R. N o v e m b e r 4. 1 9 6 3 m e m o r a n d u m ? 9 A Yes, that looks like that was what it was. 10 0 W h e n w e r e t h e s e d o c u m e n t s p r o v i d e d to you. e x h i b i t s to 11 E x h i b i t 3 of y o u r d e p o s i t i o n ? 12 I ' m n o t s u r e I c a n t e l l y o u w h e n e a c h i n d i v i d u a l o n e 13 was . 14 0 Let me ask you a b a c k g r o u n d Question. Were the 15 d o c u m e n t s a t t a c h e d to E x h i b i t 3 of your d e p o s i t i o n 16 p r o v i d e d to y o u in the f o r m t h a t w e ' v e b e e n c i v e n t h e m 17 nam e l y , as a l i s t of e x h i b i t s w i t h the e x h i b i t s b e h i n d 18 t h e m ? 19 T h e y we r e today. Now, I c a n 't r e m e m b e r if t h e y w e r e 20 o r g a n i z e d t h i s w a y w h e n I f i r s t s a w them. I 've h a d 21 s e v e r a l b i t s of i n f o r m a t i o n g i v e n to me. I lust d o n ' t 22 r e m e m b e r the a n s w e r to t h a t q u e s t i o n . 23 0 Well, have you seen the list of e x hi bi ts before today? 904591 - 16 1 i It looks f a m i l i a r . yes. Yes, my guess is that it was, 2 and p r o b a b l y b ack in ny o ff i c e at hope there nay be 3 such a stack just like this. 4 ) I've also been provided with what appears to be a 5 letter da ted Nov em b er 7 of three pages from you to Mr. 6 McCrea. 7 Okay. 8 ) Y o u ' v e p r o v i d e d me w i t h a l e t t e r d a t e d N o v e m b e r 7. 1 5 8 8 5 of three pages from you to Mr. McCrea? 10 > Yes, t h a t w o u l d be t h i s o ne. 11 i A n d a l e t t e r d a t e d N o v e m b e r 6, f r o m y o u to Mr. M c C r e a 12 of t w o p a c e s ? 13 Yes. 14 i A n d a t w o - p a c e l e t t e r f r o m y o u r.c Mr. M c C r e a d a t e d 15 A u g us t 11, 1988? 16 Yes. 17 > Now, the next d o c u m e n t I have is s o m e t h i n g cal l ed 18 H i s t o r y of the W e s t i n g h o u s e E l e c t r i c C o r p o r a t i o n PCS 19 S u r v e y b y T. 0. M u n s o n , P h . D . , ( 8 - 6 , 1 9 8 8 ) ? is th a t 20 r i g h t ? 21 Yes. 22 i W a s t h a t p a r t of e i t h e r of t he two l e t t e r s we just 23 i d e n t i f i e d ? 904592 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------;----------- T T 1 A Yes. Z believe I reference that latter and subsequent 2 material as attached items. 3 Q W he r e is that r e f e r r e d to? 4A Let me find it here. I b el i e v e t hat r e f e re nc es in the 5 A u g u s t 11 letter. Yes, p ar t A r e a s o n s for t e st in a it 6 says the attached document History of the Westinghouse 7 E l e c t r i c C o r p o r a t i o n PCB S u r v e y d e s c r i b e s et cetera, et s cetera. 9 Q And is the n e x t d o c u m e n t w h i c h is e n t i t l e d Date of 10 M e e t i n g w i t h W e s t i n g h o u s e E l e c t r i c C o r p o r a t i o n C E O by 11 T. 0. M u n s o n . P h . D . . 8 - 9 - 8 8 a l s o r e f e r e n c e d in t h a t 12 l e t t e r of A u g u s t 11? 13 A Yes. 14 W h e r e ? 15 A I t 's in the s a m e s e c t i o n A. 16 Q A n d t h a t D a t e of M e e t i n g d o c u m e n t is a t h r e e - p a c e 17 d o c u me n t: is that right? 16 A Y e s . 19 0 Th e n e x t o n e I h a v e is s o m e t h i n g c a l l e d M e t h o d U s e d for 20 M e a s u r i n g P C B s in t he S a m p l e s f r o m th e W e s t i n a h o u s e 21 22 23 A E l e c t r i c C o r p o r a t i o n PCB S u r v e y by T. 0. Munson. Ph.D.. 8-10-88. and that goes for three pages: is that riant? Yes. 904593 Te 1 A n d chat'* ref er r ed to in pa r ag ra p h B of your August 2 11. '88 l at t e r ? 3 That's correct. 4 The next d o c u m e n t is who called who about the PCB data, 5 at cetera, et -cetera, and that goes on for five paces 6 and is r e f e r r e d to in p a r a g r a p h C of the A u g us t 11. '88 7 latter? is that right? 8 Yes. 9 W e s t i n g h o u s e E l e c t r i c C o r p o r a t i o n next d o c u m e n t is 10 c a l l e d M y C o n t a c t s w i t h the L a w F i r m R e p r e s e n t i n g 11 W e s t i n g h o u s e E l e c t r i c C o r p o r a t i o n . A n d t h a t g o e s o n 12 fo r f i v e p a g e s an d is r e f e r r e d to w h e r e ? Is t h a t 13 p a r a g r a p h D? 14 Yes. J u s t a m o m e n t . Y e s . T h a t is p a r a g r a p h s D an d E. 15 I take it that the dates u n d e r n e a t h the titles of the 15 v a r i o u s a t t a c h m e n t s to the A u g u s t 11, '88 l e t t e r w e r e 17 p r e p a r e d on the d a y t h a t ' s i n s i d e the p a r e n s an d the 18 h e a d i n g s ? 19 T ha t 's the date that m a t e r i a l was prepared, yes. 20 D o we h a v e in o u r m a t e r i a l s an A u g u s t 3, 1 9 8 8 l e t t e r 21 f r o m Mr. M c C r e a ? 22 MR. F E L D M A N : C a n y o u h e l p . D a v i d ? Do y o u 23 know where that is? 904594 --------------------------- -- ---------------------------- ;-- --------------------- --------- r? 1 A Which letter ere you referring to? 2 MR. M c C R B A : A u g u s t 3. 3 THE WITNESS: Oh, okay. 4 Q I d o n ' t t h i n k I ' v e g o t t h a t . D o c t o r , y o u 've j u s t 5 handed me a two-page doc um e nt which appears to be a l e t t e r f r o m Mr. M c C r e a to y o u d a t e d A u g u s t 3, 1988; is 7 that correct? 8 A Yes. $ MR. F E L D M A N : L e t ' s m a r k t h a t No. 4. 10 ( D e f e n d a n t ' s D e p o s i t i o n E x h i b i t 4 w a s m a r k e d for 11 i d e n t i f i c a t i o n . ) 12 Q I d i d n o t h a v e t h i s d o c u m e n t in the m a t e r i a l s g i v e n to 13 me. is that right, Doctor, b e f o r e you h a n d e d it to me? 14 A I d o n 't know. If you d i d n ' t find it -- It s ho ul d have 15 been in there. 16 MR. FELDMAN: Can you e x p l a i n that D av id? 17 I don' t seem to ha v e it. 18 MR. M cCREA: I b e l i e v e that l a t t e r was not 19 in thi s comp ila tio n which Dr. Munson revi ewe d 1a s t 20 n i g h t . M y r e c o l l e c t i o n is t h a t w a s a d d e d t h i s c o r n i n e . 21 So. I' m n o t s u r e if he h a s th e l e t t e r in t h i s 22 c o m p i i a t i o n in hi s b i n d e r , B u t I ' d h a v e to loo k at the 23 l e t t er s e c t i o n . 904595 ------------------------------ -- ----------- -- -- ----------- 2T / 1 My u n d e r s t a n d i n g from w hat y o u t old us earlia r is that 2 you looked at the th ree-ring binder that you have in 3 front of you to d e t e r m i n e w h e t h e r it c o n t a i n e d all of 4 the m a t e r i a l s r e q u e s t e d in the subpoena; is that 5 correct, Doctor? 6 Y e s , I said that. 7 D i d y o u j u s t n o w r e a l i z e t h a t the A u g u s t 3. '88 l e t t e r '8 was not in there? 9 MR. McCREA: Just to correct the record. I 10 r e p r e s e n t e d to Dr. M u n s o n t h a t in t h i s b i n d e r w a s e v e r y 11 d o c u m e n t . So, if t h e r e w a s an e r r o r , it w a s m v e r r o r . 12 B u t t h i s l e t t e r , t h a t is the l e t t e r r e f e r e n c e . 13 It s h o u l d ha v e b e e n in there. 14 MR. M c C R E A ; It s h o u l d h a v e b e e n in t h e r e . 15 (Continuing) B e c a u s e t h at's the l e t t e r that I think I 16 w a s referrincr to in on e of m v o t h e r l e t t e r s . 17 T h a t ' s fine. Let ' s go on. 18 MR. McCREA: We w e r e asked to p r ov id e you 19 the d o c u m e n t s this m o r n i n c . It's my u n d e r s t a n d i n g that 20 y o u h a v e e v e r y s i n g l e d o c u m e n t . If t h e r e is a d o c u m e n t 21 t h a t is n o t i n c l u d e d , w e ' l l l o c a t e it. 22 A l l r i g h t . I b e l i e v e th e n e x t d o c u m e n t -- I d o n ' t k n o w 23 if y o u ' v e got them in the same o r d e r I do. I have a 904596 2T-- 1 N o v e m b e r 3, *8S l s c c a r f r o m M c C r a a ro M u n s o n w i t h s o m e 2 an attachment:*. 3 A Okay. X have that one here. 4 0 And X have eight pages of attachments to that two-pace 5 letter; is that right? 6 A I find eight. 7 0 You find eight? 8 A Yes. 9 MR. McCREA: I would also note for the 10 r e c o r d t h a t a b s e n t the a t t a c h m e n t s is r e f e r e n c e A. I 11 d o n o t f i n d t h a t in the a t t a c h m e n t s to th e N o v e m b e r 12 1 5 8 8 l e t t e r . 13 Q Have you r e v i e w e d that a t t a c h m e n t A you ref e r to in the 14 N o v e m b e r 3 le t t e r ? 15 MR. McCREA: I don't believe that appears. 16 A Yes. X b e li e v e so. Yes. X b el i e v e X have seen that 17 b e c a u s e I th i n k I c o m m e n t e d on it. 18 0 Is it fair to say that the m a t e r i a l s here were c o m p i l e d IS by Mr. C u r r y f r o m m a t e r i a l s in Mr. M c C r e a 's o f f i c e 20 r a t h e r t h a n g o i n g to y o u r h o m e or o f f i c e in M i n n e s o t a 21 22 A to pull these materials together? 904597 I'm not a hundred percent sure Mr. Curry did the 23 compiling, but yes. that's how this material was put 77 1 together. 2 MR. McCREA: For the record, the materials 3 put together in my office by Stu Curry, John Foster and j 4 myself after I informed Dr. Mu nso n that we would j 5 p r ov i de all the r e q u e s t e d m a t er i a l s , that he need not 6 assemble them from his end and bring them with him. 7 Right. And consequently, Doctor, you did not take the 8 rider to the subpoena and look through the materials 5 that you have at your o f f i c e or your home in M i n n e s o t a 10 to d e t e r m i n e w h e t h e r t h e r e w e r e a n y m a t e r i a l s t h a t 11 c o m p l y w i t h t h a t s u b p o e n a t h a t w e r e t h e r e ; is t h a t 12 r i g h t ? 13 What I did was I read the subpoena, I read the 14 a t t a c h m e n t s to try to f i gure out how bro a d the scope 15 was and what I might have to bring, talked with Davi d 16 about it. D a v i d said. "We have e v e r y t h i n g here. I 17 will put it t o g e t h e r and w h e n you get here it will be 18 here . " Now, I have been t h r o u g h all my files and I'm 19 p r e t t y f a m il i a r w it h wh at 's there. I be li ev e that this 20 is the m a t e r i a l t h a t is r e s p o n s i v e to y o u r s u b p o e n a . 21 B e f o r e y o u r e c e i v e d the s u b p o e n a y o u h a d p r o v i d e d 22 v a r i o u s m a t e r i a l s to Mr. M c C r e a ; is t h a t right? 2-3 Y e s . 904598 1 0 And he then informed you that in those ma te ria ls were 2 the documents that corresponded to the rider on the 3 subpoena: is that right? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Y o u d i d n 't g o b a c k to y o u r o w n d o c u m e n t s a n d f i l e s to 6 d e t e r m i n e if there were a d d i t i o n a l m a t e r i a l s that had 7 not been previously provided to Mr. McCrea but which 8 might neve rt he les s complv with the rider to the c subpoena? 10 A Oh, t h e r e a r e n ' t a n y a d d i t i o n a l m a t e r i a l s . 11 0 Is th e a n s w e r to m y q u e s t i o n y e s or no, t h a t y o u d i d 12 n o t oo b a c k to y o u r f i l e s to d e t e r m i n e w h e t h e r t h e r e 13 were mat er ial s that com plied with the rider that had 14 not b e e n p r e v i o u s l y p r o v i d e d to Mr. M c C r e a ? 15 MR. McCREA: Jan, I would obiect to the 16 q u e s t i o n for the s i m p l e r e a s o n that all m a t e r i a l s 17 r e l i e d u p o n by Dr. M u n s o n w e r e se n t to us. 18 MR. F E L D M A N : You a s s u m e y o u have a s k e d 19 him for the same mater ial s that I have asked him for. 20 D a v i d . 21 MR. M c C R E A : B u t I ' v e r e a d the s u b p o e n a . 22 MR. Y O U N G : T h e w i t n e s s s a y s t h a t 's all 23 there is. His a n s w e r is that he knows of his own 904599 1 kn owledge that' it. 7T 2 The answer to your qu es ti o n after recei vin g your 3 subpoena did I go through all of my files looking for 4 i nf or ma t io n, the answer is no, I didn't. Beca use I 5 b e l i e v e that all of the i n f o r m a t i o n has a l r e ad y been 6 pulled out of my files in pr o vi di n g the information 7 w h i c h . No. 1 ~ w e l l , No. 1, E r i c O r d w a y a s k e d for. He 8 asked me the same question. 9 Did Mr. O rd wa y provide you with the same rider to the 10 s u b p o e n a ? 11 No. No. B u t he a s k e d m e fo r an y W e s t i n g h o u s e dat a , 12 r e p o r t s , et c e t e r a I m a y h a v e in m y p o s s e s s i o n . A n d 13 b a s i c a l l y at that p o i n t I l o o k e d at w h a t I had, I 14 p r o v i d e d h i m w i t h w h a t I had. 15 O k a y . L e t ' s c o n t i n u e t h r o u g h th e d o c u m e n t s . T h e next 16 set that I have is there are two lett e r s d a t e d N o v e m b e r 17 6 and N o v e m b e r 7 of 1988 f r o m y o u to, I g u e s s , D a v i d 18 McCr6a: is that ri o h t ? 19 T h e r e is no formal a d d r e s s on there. 20 O k a y . 21 W i t h f i v e p a g e s b e h i n d that, is t h a t r i g h t , f o l l o w e d by 22 s o m e m o r e l e t t e r s ? 23 Yes. 904600 -- . .. ---------------------- ---- 1------------- `-- !------ ;------ ZT 1 Q An d che a d d i t i o n a l l e t t e r s a r e an A u g u s t 24, 1988 2 l et te r to M c C r e a from M u n s o n and a May 16. '88 let t e r 3 f r o m M u n s o n to M c C r e a of t w o p a g e s ; .is t h a t r i g h t ? 4 A Yes. 5 0 And the next doc ument is a cur ri cu lu m vitae. It goes 6 on for s e v e n pages; is that right? 7 A X think that got rearranged. Yes, I have found the 8 curriculum vitae. Yes. 9 0 When did you prepare that? 10 A T h i s p a r t i c u l a r o n e I b e l i e v e ha s b e e n p r e p a r e d w i t h i n 11 th e l a s t m o n t h . I b e l i e v e I d i d t h a t N o v e m b e r 1 0 t h o r 12 s o m e t h i n g l i k e that. N o v e m b e r 8th. 13 MR. FELD M A N : Let ' s m a r k the c u r r i c u l u m 14 v i t a e as E x h i b i t 5. 15 ( D e f en d a n t ' s D e p o s i t i o n E x h i b i t 5 was m a r k e d for 16 i d e n t i f i c a t i o n . ) 17 0 D o c t o r , I h a v e h a d the c o u r t r e p o r t e r m a r k as y o u r 18 De po s it i o n Exhibit No. 5 a copy of your curriculum 19 v it a e that I was p r o v i d e d this mo r n i n g ; is that rig ht ? 20 A Y e s . A n d I b e l i e v e t h a t w a s p r e p a r e d a n d i n c l u d e d in 21 the N o v e m b e r 7 t h l e t t e r . T h a t w o u l d be m y 22 r e c o l l e c t i o n . 23 0 Is this c u r r e n t ? ____________________________ __________________ ________ 904601 ---- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------2 ? 1 Yes. 2 The next docu men t I have is three affidavits from 3 Poster Lee Mayer, Harold Humphrey, John Lech, L-e-c-h; 4 is that right, D o c t o r ? 5 Yes, I find those in my information. 6 MR. McCREA: Jan. in addition there are 7 three additional affidavits which have not been copied ' 8 which we will give to you that you can copy. But we do 5 not have my c o p i e s of tho s e at this d e p o s i t i o n . 10 MR. F E L D M A N : I ' v e g o t L a M o r e a u x . 11 MR. M c C R E A : M y u n d e r s t a n d i n g is t h e s e 12 t h r e e w e r e n o t in y o u r s t a c k . So. if t h e y are. fine. 13 If they aren't, they n e e d to be copied. 14 In a d d i t i o n to th e a f f i d a v i t s t h a t I h a v e j u s t 15 described, Mr. McCrea has just handed me a letter from 16 W i l l i a m W e s t l a k e to S a n d r a G a r d e b r i n o of th e U. S. E P A 17 d a t e d S e p t e m b e r 10. 1981? 18 Yes. IS As w e l l as an a f f i d a v i t f r o m a J a m e s Hunt, d a t e d 20 S e p t e m b e r 17, 1 9 8 4 - -- e x c u s e me -- a p p a r e n t l y s i o n e d on 21 D e c e m b e r 22. 1 9 8 2 -- oh, I se e -- s i g n e d D e c e m b e r 22. 22 1 9 8 2 ; is t h a t r i g h t ? 23 Yes, I think so. _______________ _ " ________________ _ 904602 __ ----- ;-- -------- ---------- ;------------------- ---------- ------------- --------------- .. 2*-- 1 0 And that contain* a two-page attachment from the 2 Indiana State Board of Health Division of Sanitary 3 Engineering? 4 A . Yes, 5 0 Now, c a n y o u .lust b r i e f l y e x p l a i n h o w t h e s e d o c u m e n t s 6 came to be in your possession this morning? 7 A Oh, those docum ent s were given to me ye st erd a y by David 8 McCrea. 9 Q Did you review them before your deposition today? 10 A Y e s , I r e a d t h e m l a s t e v e n i n g . | '. i 11 0 T h a t 's al l I h a v e . A r e t h e r e a n y o t h e r d o c u m e n t s t h a t 12 y o u i n t e n d e d to p r o v i d e t o d a y b u t m a y n o t h a v e p u r s u a n t I 15 14 A to the subpoena? I d on ' t think so, 15 0 And to your k n o w l e d g e . are there any other doc um en ts 16 oth e r than the ones we have just gone t h r o u a h that 17 c o m p l y w i t h the rider to the s u b p o e n a that you 13 r e c e i v e d ? 19 A T o the b e s t of m y k n o w l e d g e , t h e r e a r e not. 20 0 O k a y . B e f o r e we go o f f th e r e c o r d , c a n y o u tell me 21 w h i c h of t he d o c u m e n t s w e 've r e v i e w e d o r a n y o t h e r s 22 t h a t y o u m a y h a v e r e v i e w e d or l o o k e d at in p r e p a r a t i o n 23 for this deposi tio n today? _________________________ _____________ _ _ _ _ _ 904603 T2 1 Well, I had all of these in ay posse ss io n last ev eni no 2 and all of those except for the letter that we noted a 3 few moments ago that was not in my material. 4 We can't use "these" and "those" because we wouldn't 5 know what they mean. The documents you had in your 6 p o s s e s s i o n a r e al l t he d o c u m e n t s we h a v e .iust d e s c r i b e d 7 on the record? is that c o r r e c t ? 8 I b e li e v e so. yea. 5 Did you review th6m all last nioht? 10 I p a c e d t h r o u g h t h e m f o r s e v e r a l h o u r s . 11 T h e e n t i r e s t a c k ? 12 Yes, I b e l i e v e so. 13 Any other documents that you rev iewed prior to this 14 d e p o s i t i o n today oth er than the ones that we have 15 before us and that we have put into the record? 16 Yo u m ea n at any time or in p r e p a r a t i o n for t o day's 17 m ee t in c ? IS In p r e o a r a t i o n for t o d a y ' s d e p o s i t i o n . 19 No, there were no other ones. 20 O t h e r t h a n th e r e v i e w of the m a t e r i a l s t h a t y o u ' v e 21 p r o v i d e d us t o d a y , d i d y o u do a n y t h i n g e l s e in 22 p r e p a r a t i o n f o r y o u r d e p o s i t i o n t o d a y ? 23 No. 904604 ---------- --------------- ;------------------------------------------------------- ;--- '----------- r-T f 1 Q Did you have any meetings with anybody? 2 A David McCrea and I have talked. 3 Q W he n was the last time you had a m e e t i n g with Mr. 4 McCrea? 5 A Let's see. That would have been when X was in 6 Bloomington when the recorded conversation was made, I 7 believe. W h a t e v e r d a t e that was. A u g u s t 13 it says on 8 there. So, I came to B l o o m i n g t o n at that p o i n t in 9 August, and up until yesterday I had not seen David 10 o t h e r t h a n t h a t time. 11 C A l l r i g h t . Y o u d i d m e e t w i t h Mr. M c C r e a y e s t e r d a y ? 12 A Yes. l a s t e v e n i n g . 13 0 Did y o u p r e p a r e for y o u r d e p o s i t i o n w i t h Mr. M c C r e a 14 v a s t e r d a y ? 15 A N o t h i n g o t h e r than he h a n d e d me this m a t e r i a l . 16 0 How long was the m e e t i n g w i t h Mr. M c C r e a y e s t e r d a v ? 17 A M a y b e 15 m i n u t e s . 13 0 A n d th a n the o t h e r c o n t a c t s f o l l o w i n g the A u g u s t 13 19 m e e t i n g up u n t i l y e s t e r d a y w e r e by letter; is that 20 r i g h t 21 A 22 0 Yes. Do you keep notes of telephone conversations? 23 A Not usually. 904605 -------------------------------------------------- --------;-- Ju" 1 Have you kept note* of any telephone conversations you 2 may have had with Mr. McCrea? 3 I don't have a file of notes. X think we probably had 4 a couple of conversations where I made a few notes on a 5 note pad of thinas to act on which were then after I 6 acted on them the notes were destroyed, discarded. 7 We've looked through a number of letters and statements 3 chat you have done in response to requests from Mr. 9 M c C r e a in the- l a s t f e w m o n t h s ; is t h a t r i g h t ? 10 Y e s . 11 T h o s e w e r e d o n e on v o u r c o m p u t e r at y o u r o f f i c e ? 12 A l m o s t all of t h e m w e r e d o n e on m y c o m p u t e r in m.y 13 o f f i c e at home. 14 Okay. Were there any d r a f t s made of those s t a t e m e n t s 15 or letters? 16 D ra ft s? 17 Yes. 18 I'm not sure I u n d e r s t a n d wh a t you mean. 19 We seem to have the final v e r s i o n that was sent to Mr. 20 M c C r e a of al l t h o s e letters, a n d d o c u m e n t s . W e r e t h e r e 21 a n y d r a f t s t h a t led u p to the f i n a l v e r s i o n that y o u 22 s e n t o f f ? 23 No. T h e y w e r e c o m p o s e d u s i n g a w o r d p r o c e s s o r on a 904606 '------------- -- ;----- --- --- --- --- -- -------- --- *-- . 3"i" 1 eoaputer and just composed, rersad and recomposed. 2 structured on ch e o m p u c s r . 3 If we were to look at the c o m p u t e r d is k today it would 4 match up with what was sent to Mr. McCrea? 5 Y e s , I think so. 6 MR. FELDMAN: Okay. In view of the fact 7 that this is a rather sub stantial amount of material, 8 we w o u l d l i k e to t a k e a b r e a k so t h a t w e h a v e a ca h a n c e 9 to review it before we oo further in this deposition. 10 W e ' l l a l s o m a k e c o p i e s of the m a t e r i a l s t h a t w e r e 11 p r o v i d e d t h i s m o r n i n o . A n d I w o u l d s u a o e s t m e e t i n a 12 b a c k h e r e at 1 : 0 0 o ' c l o c k . 13 MR. McCREA: Fine. 14 15 (A r e c e s s w a s t a k e n at 1 1 : 1 5 a.m. a n d r e s u m e d at IS 1 : 1 5 p . m . ) 17 18 A F T E R N 0 0 N S E S S I 0 N 19 20 SCT E X A M I N A T I O N ( R e s u m e d ) , 21 Q U E S T I O N S B Y MR. F E L D M A N : 904607 22 Dr. M u n s o n , w o u l d y o u D u l l t h a t c o p y of y o u r c u r r i c u l u m 23 v i t a e . I t ' s a d o c u m e n t we m a r k e d as E x h i b i t 5. Bv the -- -- ------------------ -- ----------------------------------- ------- :-- ;-------------- ------ ' :.................... '3 2 1 way. I d i d n 't do t h i s b a f o r a , a n d m a y b e it w o u l d j u s t 2 m ak e sens e f o r the r e c o r d to do it now. This is a 3 subpoena depos it io n in the case of Conard versus 4 W e s t i n g h o u s e . A n d I 'm g o i n g to b e a s k i n g y o u a n u m b e r 5 of ques ti on s rela tin g to the materials you brought here 6 t o d a y a n d some o t h e r s . A n d if y o u d o n 't u n d e r s t a n d my 7 question, will you ask me to rephrase it for you? 8 Yes . 9 Which leads me to my second instruction, that you have 10 to g i v e all y o u r a n s w e r s o u t l o u d to the c o u r t r e p o r t e r 11 b e c a u s e sh e c a n o n l v t a k e d o w n w o r d s r a t h e r t h a n n o d s 12 o f the h e a d or g r u n t s or s o m e t h i n g else. 13 O k a y . 14 A n d the l a s t p o i n t is le t me f i n i s h m y q u e s t i o n 15 compl et el y before you start to .answer yours so that 16 sh e ' s t a k i n g d o w n one p e r s o n at a time. Is that clear, 17 t o o ? 18 Yes . 19 What is y o u r c u r r e n t o c c u p a t i o n . D o c t o r ? 20 I am an a s s o c i a t e p r o f e s s o r of c h e m i s t r y at St. C l o u d 21 S t a t e U n i v e r s i t y , St. C l o u d , M i n n e s o t a . 22 H a v e y o u h e l d t h a t p o s i t i o n s i n c e S e p t e m b e r . '-87? 23 Yes . 904608 - ---- ---------------------------- --- ----- -- -- ------- :: 1 Q Were you an a s i i s c t n t p r e i i s s o r before being an 2 associate professor? 3.3 3 A N o . I was n o t . 4 Q You cane in at the associate level? : 5 A Yes. 6 Q Do you teach g r a d u a t e level courses at St. Cloud? 7 A No, I d o n 't. 8 0 Why is that? 9 A There isn't any graduate chemistry program. 10 Q I see. A n d y o u t e a c h f r e s h m a n c h e m i s t r y a n d 11 i n t r o d u c t i o n to f o r e n s i c s c i e n c e ; is t h a t right? 12 A Y e s . 13 Q W ha t is the con t e n t of the c ourse in f o r e n s i c s c ie n ce ? 14 A This c ourse is d e s i g n e d for n o n s c i e n c e m a j o r s to 15 famili ar iz e them with sc ien tif ic techniques that are 16 u se d in crime laborat or ie s. 17 0 Is that course tauohr as part of some f o r e n s i c decree? 18 A The course has b e c o m e a r e o u i r e m e n t for c r i m i n a l 19 iustice ma-iors. It's b a s i c a l l y a g e n e r a l e d u c a t i o n 20 21 Q science course. Was the course in existence before you came to S t . 22 C l o u d ? 23 A Yes. 904609 aaSi"r~~------------------ -------------- --------- -----------T T 1 Is the a d v a n c e d foren si c s ci e n c e lab or at or y also pa rt 2 of the criminal. justice decree? 3 Yes 4 And what does that involve? 5 Really wore of the same. The course, both courses, are 6 h e a v i l y b a s e d in l a b o r a t o r y t e c h n i q u e s , such thi n c s as 7 f i n g er p r i n ti ng and paper chromatography, things of that 8 nature. 9 What is p ao e r c h r o m a t o g r a p h y ? 10 I t ' s a m e t h o d for s e p a r a t i n g m i x t u r e s of o r g a n i c 11 c h e m i c a l s b y p u t t i n c th e m i x t u r e on p a p e r a n d t h e n 12 d e v e l o p i n g th e p a p e r w i t h a s o l v e n t m i x t u r e w h i c h 13 causes the mixture of compounds to separate into 14 individual bands on the papsr. 15 Is the p u r p o s e of that test to i d e n t i f y the s u b s t a n c e ? 16 It's u s e d m o s t l y as a c o m p a r i s o n m e t h o d . For i n s t a n c e , 17 for c o m p a r i n a one ball poi n t pen ink to a n o t h e r ball 18 po i n t pen ink to see if the p a t t e r n of dyes wi l l match. 19 Why wo uld one do that in a forensic science situation? 20 We l l , if the c l a i m was, f o r i n s t a n c e , t h a t t h e r e was an 21 e n t r y in a w i l l t h a t s o m e o n e c l a i m e d w a s m a d e at a 22 l a t e r date, if in f a c t it w a s m a d e at a l a t e r d a t e 23 guite l ik el y a d i f f e r e n t pen was used. And vou w o u l d ' 904610 731 find that the pattern of dyes in the inks didn't match. 2 Therefore, you would have proof that a different pen 3 was used. That sort of thing* 4 Q What is the Phi Kappa Phi that you list under your 5 6A h o n or s and a wards at St. Clo u d ? It's a honorary science fraternity. 7 Q And what is Crime L a b o r a t o r y Digest? 8 A That is a s c i e n t i f i c iournal p u b l i s h e d by the FBI 9 research grouo. 10 0 Is t h a t a j o u r n a l d i s t r i b u t e d n a t i o n a l l y ? 11 A Yes. 12 0 W h o ar e the l i k e l y r e c i p i e n t s of t h a t .iournal? 13 A M os t of the copies go toc ri mi nalists, forensi c 14 s c i e n ti s ts w o r k i n g in the state and local l a b o r a t o r i e s . 15 Q What is your addr.ess in St. Cloud? 16 A My home a d dr e s s ? 17 0 Y es. 18 A 1001 8th A v e n u e S.E., St. Cloud. M i n n e s o t a 56304. 19 0 Are you married, air? 20 A Y es. 21 Q 22 A Who are you married to? Leslie Jean Munson. 23 0 Is t h a t t h e - o n l y m a r r i a g e y o u 've h a d ? 904611 1 Ho. Ho. 2 Who wore you prev iou sl y p arried to? To 3 I was previously married to Judith Cox Munson. 4 Were you divorced? 5 Yes . 6 Were there any previous marriages? 7 Yes. 8 Who were the other marriages to? 9 I was marrie d to Carol Gunn, with two Ns. Munson. 10 Any others? 11 N o . 12 W h e r e is J u d i t h C o x M u n s o n t o d a y ? 13 N e w O r l e a n s . L o u i s i a n a . 14 Did you have any c hi ldren? 15 Yes . 16 W h er e do they reside? 17 My o ld e st d a u g h t e r lives in Madison. W i s co n s i n . Her 18 name is N e l l . 19 Is this a d a u g h t e r by Ju di th Cox? 20 Ye s . A n d m y t w o y o u n g e r d a u g h t e r s , t h e y 're twins, a l s o 21 f r o m t h e s a m e m a r r i a g e . S a r a l i v e s i n L o s A n g e l e s and 22 Emily lives in Portland, Oregon. 23 Are any of vour d a u g h t e r s m a r r i e d ? 904612 1 A Hoc yet. 77 2 Q What's the oldest daughter's age? 3 A She'll be 21 in November. 4 Q Does she go by the name of Munson or Cox? 5 A She goes by the name of Munson. 6 0. A n y o t h e r c h i l d r e n t h a t y o u h a v e ? 7 A No. 8 0 How old are vou? 9 A 47. 10 Q H a v e y o u e v e r b e e n c o n v i c t e d of a f e l o n v ? 11 A No. 12 Q Is y o u r b a c h e l o r f r o m -- It d o e s n ' t a p p e a r on y o u r CV. 13 W h e r e is your BS from? 14 A Berkeley. It's right above. U n i v e r s i t y of C a l i f o r n i a. 15 Berkeley. 16 0 And that was 1963? 17 A Yes. 18 0 In zoology: is that r ight? 19 A That's correct. 20 0 A n d t h e n y o u d i d a m a s t e r of s c i e n c e in b i o c h e m i s t r y at 21 22 A the U n i v e r s i t y of W i s c o n s i n : is that c o rrect ? Yes. 23 0 A n d g r a d u a t e d w i t h y o u r m a s t e r in 1 9 6 5 ? 904613 1 Yes . 2 Can you define biochemistry, please? T5 3 B i o c h em i s tr y bas i ca ll y is the ch em ist ry of bioloaical 4 systems. 5 Did you have a particular subject matter area that you 6 emphasized in your master decree procram? 7 Yes. I was working on nitrogen fixation by a ' 8 particular soil bacteria. 9 What does that mean? 10 T h a t m e a n s t h e b i o c h e m i c a l p r o c e s s b y w h i c h t h i s 11 b a c t e r i a was able to take n i t r o c e n gas out of the air 12 and make it into ammonia. 13 0 Is the r e some a p p l i c a t i o n for that r e s e a r c h ? 14 Sure. We s p e n d m i l l i o n s of d o l l a r s e v e r v y e a r in this 15 c o u n t r y m a k i n g ammonia to be used as fertil i z e r. It's 16 a v er y e xpe ns iv e process, hiah pressure, hiah 17 t e m p e r a t u r e . And this b a c t e r i a d oes it in this 18 s o l u t i o n at room t e m p e r a t u r e . 19 Has the p ro c e s s that you w o r k e d on b een u t i l i z e d in 20 c o m m e r c i a l a p p l i c a t i o n s ? 21 T o m y k n o w l e d g e at the m o m e n t I d o n 't t h i n k so. 22 A l t h o u g h , D o w C h e m i c a l h a s p a t e n t e d the b i o l o a i c a l 23 process. 904614 10 '-- --- --------- ------ --- -- -- ---- --------------------- T? D i d y o u r e c e i v e e n y c o m p e n s a t i o n fo r D o w C h e m i c a l 's 2 patent? 3 A No. No. 4 0 Wes it your idea that they patented? 5 A No. No. / 6 Q W h a t 's the r e l a t i o n s h i p b e t w e e n y o u r w o r k and D o w ' s 7 patent? 6 A Well, basically only in the sense that I alone with, 9 oh. 10 or 15 o t h e r g r a d u a t e s t u d e n t s w o r k i n g in this 1 l a b o r a t o r y w o r k e d on v a r i o u s a s p e c t s of b i e l o o i c a l 11 n i t r o o e n f i x a t i o n u s i n o c e l l - f r e e s y s t e m s . A n d D o w 12 C h e m i c a l w a s a b l e to g a i n a p a t e n t on t h a t p a r t i c u l a r 13 p r o c e s s . 14 0 Did you ever w or k for Do w C h e m i c a l ? 15 A No. 16 0 Does Dr. P.isebrouoh w or k for Do w C h e m i c a l or did he? 17 A N o . 18 0 L o o k i n o at th e d e s c r i p t i o n of y o u r P h . D . . it w a s i n 19 b i o c h e m i s t r y : is t h a t r i a h t ? 20 A Y e s . 21 0 You did another nitrogen fixation study in connection 22 w i t h y o u r Ph.D. d i s s e r t a t i o n : is t h a t r i a h t ? 23 A Y e s . 904615 -- -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------:---------------;-- --------- -- -- 3 T 1 What' the difference between tha aster and the Ph.D. 2 dissertations? 3 The bacteria that X used was a purple lake bacteria for 4 the Ph.D. w ork as o p p o s e d to the soil bacteria. 5 W hi c h was the b a c t e r i a that was u s e d in the pate n t ? 6 Either one oi those? 7 Probably the cell-free system that they used for . 8 demonstrating th6ir patent probably came from the soil 9 b a c t e r i a . A l t h o u a h , I ' v e n e v e r r e a d t h e i r p a t e n t . I 'm 10 n o t s u r e s p e c i f i c a l l y h o w it w a s w o r d e d . 11 Is the a s s o c i a t e p r o f e s s o r p o s i t i o n t h a t y o u h a v e a 12 t e n u r e d t r a c k ? 13 Yes . 14 B e f o r e v o u c ame to St. C l o u d S t a t e U n i v e r s i t y you w e r e 15 at the FBI F o r e n s i c S c i e n c e R e s e a r c h Unit at O u a n t i c c , 16 co r r e c t ? 17 Yes. 18 T h a t was Apr i l of '32 to S e p t e m b e r . '87? 19 Yes . 20 W h a t w a s y o u r job at the F o r e n s i c S c i e n c e R e s e a r c h U n i t 21 at the FBI? 22 My job h a d p r i m a r i l y two a s p e c t s to it. One was to 23 de ve lo p new methods which could be used -- new methods 904616 ------ ----------------------- ------------------------------- ------------- :------------- ---1----- r r 1 for examining evidence wh ich could be used in the FBI 2 laboratory and in other crime laboratories. 3 T he s e c o n d a s p e c t of my dob was to serve as an 4 instructor in certain sp eci al ize d courses which we 5 offered at the FBI academy for trainino forensic 6 scientists from state and local laboratories. 7 Q What background did you have in forensic science before 3 you went.tc the FBI? 2 A None, really. 10 0 Y o u h a v e a n u m b e r of e n t r i e s r e l a t i n a to p r o c e s s e s 11 i n v o l v i n g GC/MS. Does that mean oas c h r o m a t o g r a o h v / 12 gas s p e c t r o m e r r v ? 13 A Yes. T h a t ' s true. 14 0 Is that what you were r e f e r r i n g to w h e n you said that 15 you developed new methods for examining evidence? 16 A Yes. M o s t of the m e t h o d s were b a s e d on GC/MS. 17 0 Can you b r i e f l y d e s c r i b e w h a t G C / M S is? 18 A I t h i n k so. G a s c h r o m a t o g r a p h y is a m e t h o d u s e d to 19 separate mixtures of org anic chemicals. For instance. 20 PCBs and p esticides. GC/ MS is what we call today a 21 h y p h e n a t e d t e c h n i g u e . T h a t m e a n s the G C , gas 22 c h r o m a t o g r a p h y , is c o n n e c t e d to a n o t h e r instrument. a 23 m a s s s p e c t r o m e t e r . A n d t he c h e m i c a l s that are 904617 ------ --- -- ------------------------- ------------- :----- '------------ ------- ----------- 4T s e p a r a t e d b y t h e <3C c a n t h e n be a n a l y z e d by t he m a s s spectrometer. So. the mass s p e c t r o m e t e r is an i n s t r u m e n t that in this a p p l i c a t i o n is used to analyze, u s u a l l y identify, organic chemicals by looking at their molecular structure. 0 If y o u .lust p e r f o r m a O C t e s t do y o u n o t o b t a i n an i d e n t i f i c a t i o n of the s u b s t a n c e s that are s e pa ra te d ? A Well, yes and no. Depends upon the substance. If you have a single compound, for instance, DDT, when that substance comes out of the gas chromatograph separated out from w h a t e v e r m a t r i x it was in it occurs as a peak on a r e c o r d that r e a l l y is o n l y a m e a s u r e of h o w I ona it took it, h o w long it took that c h e m i c a l s u bstance, to get to the detector on the gas chromat oo ra ph from the time you injected it into the gas chromatograph.,' So. the only r e c o r d you get is that ar that p a r t i c u l a r time a subs ta nc e came out w hi c h can be measured by the detector. The DDT one has a p r o b l e m . then. Is it D D T or is it not DDT. B e c a u s e there are. just as a rou g h guess, m a y b e 150 or 200 , 0 0 0 o raanic chemicals that would be pro c es se d by the gas ch ro m a to g r aph under those same conditions. And some of 904618 7" I---------- ------------------------------------------------------------------ -- ----------;-- 1 c h o s e ar e b o u n d co coroe o u t ac e x a c t l y the s a m e p l a c e 2 the DDT came out. 3 B y c o u p l i n g a m a s s s p e c t r o m e t e r to th e eras 4 chromatograph you then not only get that specific time, 5 you also get to look at the m o l e c u l a r s tructu re of the c 6 DDT mo le c u l e and con fir m that in fact it really was 7 DDT. The time that you do get a fairly good 8 i d e n t i f i c a t i o n is w h e n y o u ' r e u s i n g s o m e t h i n g like a 9 p o l y c h l o r i n a t e d b i p h e n y l , a PCB, w h e r e y o u 're not c 10 d e a l i n g w i t h a s i m p l e c o m p o u n d w i t h o n e m o l e c u l a r 11 s t r u c t u r e . Y o u ' r e d e a l i n g w i t h a c l a s s of c o m p o u n d s . 12 So t h a t the o as c h r o m a t o g r a p h i n s t e a d of g i v i n g 13 y o u o n e p e a k at a s p e c i f i c p o i n t g i v e s yo u a whole: 14 r e l a t e d f a m i l y of peaks, each oeax o c c u r r i n g at a c 15 s p e c i f i c time w i t h a s p e c i f i c r e l a t i o n s h i p one peak to 16 the next. So. you g e t a s i g n a t u r e -- M o s t c h e m i s t s 17 like to call that a f i n g e r p r i n t -- for PCB. w i t h a 18 single c o m p o n e n t c o m p o u n d you d o n ' t get a f i n ge rp r in t 19 and really vou don't get an identification. c 20 A n d t h a t ' s w h y G C / M S h a s b e c o m e a v e r y p o p u l a r 21 t e c h n i q u e for e n v i r o n m e n t a l a n a l y s i s . 22 Q So. th e a n s w e r is no. y o u c a n ' t a i v e me a b r i e f a n s w e r 23 to that c uestion. ______I_________________________ _____________________ 904619 __ ----------------------------- - ---- ; : " -- -- ---- : JT 1 No. Wall, that was pr et ty brief. You can have several 2 hours on the subject if you like. 3 Is the work that you just d e s c r i b e d in GC/MS d i f f e r e n t 4 from the entry on your curriculum vitae for research 5 chemist with the FBI? 6 I'm sorry. 7 Look at the first oaae at the bottom. 6 Ye,,s. R e s e a r c h chemist. Okay. 9 Is that d i f f e r e n t from the next g ro u p of descriotior.s 10 of the w o r k t h a t y o u d i d t h e r e ? 11 No. B a s i c a l l y t h o s e ar e i n t e n d e d to c o n v e v to y o u w h a t 12 w o r k I p e r f o r m e d as a r e s e a r c h c h e m i s t . R e s e a r c h 13 c h e m i s t w a s m y t i t l e . 14 Why did you leave the FBI in 1987? 15 I d e c i d e d that I w o u l d like to try b e i n g a u n i v e r s i t y 16 professor. 17 You were w i t h the F o r e n s i c S c i e n c e R e s e a r c h U n i t w i t h 18 th e FBI. W a s t h e r e a t i t l e f o r y o u r p o s i t i o n ? 19 Basi cally the title simplv was r es ea rch chemist. 20 W a s t h a t v o u r t i t l e t h r o u g h o u t th e e n t i r e time y o u 21 w o r k e d at t h e F B I ? 22 Y e s . 23 Did you have any promotions while you ware with the " ` `' 904620 ------------ -------------------------------- ------------------------- -- -------------------------------- -------------------------- ;---------ttr 1 FBI? 2 A Not o th e r than the s t a n d a r d m o v e m e n t from step 6 to 3 40 step 7 of a GS scale. Did you apoly for anv promotions while you were with 5 6A the FBI? No. T h e r e r e a l l y w e r e n 't any. 70 Can you explain why there weren't any? ' 8 A Yes. The FBI is a h i e r a r c h y like m a ny systems. In the 9 re search qroup the rese arc h group was staffed at the 10 s e n i o r level w it h Ph.D. s c i e n t i s t s whose titles were 11 research chemists. The next level was a man ageme nt 12 p o s i t i o n w h i c h wa s g i v e n o n l y to FB I a g e n t s . So. t h e r e 13 was no p r o m o t i o n a v a i l a b l e to anv of the r e s e a r c h 14 s c i e n t i s t s . 15 0 Who was vour imme di at e s u p e r v i s o r whi le you were with 16 the FBI? 17 A At the time I left mv i m m e d i a t e s u p e r v i s o r was s p e c i a l 18 age n t Mike Noblett. 19 <3 H o w do y o u s o e l l hi s n a m e ? 20 A I t h i n k t h a t ' s N - o - b - l - e - t - t , I t h i n k , b u t I ' m not 21 e n t i r e l y s u re. 22 0 Do y o u k n o w w h e r e he is t o d a y ? 23 A I b e l i e v e he is still the -- I thi n k they chanced the 904621 ------------- ;------------------------- :--- rrtrr:---:------ 46" 1 s t r u c t u r e a b o u t f i v e t i m e s w h i l e I w a s there. He is 2 the chief of the res ear ch unit at the FBI academv. 3 In Quantico? 4 In Q u a n t i c o . 5 Now, before you went to the FBI you were with the EPA 6 R e a i o n 3 in A nn apolis; is that rioht? 7 That's correct. 8 Is t h a t the m a i n h e a d a u a r t e r s for R e a i o n 2? 9 No. 10 Where is that? 11 T h a t 's in P h i l a d e l p h i a . 12 Is the r e g i o n a l l a b o r a t o r y In A n n a p o l i s the o n l v 13 l a b o r a t o r y that R e a i o n 3 has? 14 At the time I was there they had another l a b o r a t o r y in 15 W heelina, West Virginia. 16 And you were there from N o v e m b e r of '76 unt i l A o r i l of 17 '82; is that r i a h t ? 18 Yes. 19 Did you b e gin in N o v e m b e r of 1976 with rhe po si ti on of 20 c h e m i s t ? 21 Y e s . 22 Is that w h e r e y o u e n d e d up as w e l l ? 23 Yes. I b e l i e v e so. 904622 ---- --------------------------- ----- -------------------;----:-- 4T 1 0 Did you apply for any promo ti on s to different or hiahe r 2 p o s i t i o n s at th e r e g i o n a l l a b o r a t o r y , R e g i o n 3. in 3 Annapolis? 4 A No. 5 Q Who was your immediate supervisor at Annapolis? 6 A When I left my immediate supervisor was Dan Donnelley. 7 I think that's two Ns. two L s . ' 8 Q To your k n o w l e d a e is he still in A n n a p o l i s ? 9 A I b e li e v e so. 10 Q Y o u w e r e t h e r e fo r a b o u t s i x y e a r s . W h a t w e r e the 11 oen6 ra l kinds of work you did when you first s t a r t e d 12 o u t ? 13 A I was h i r e d to be the chief of th6 o r o a n i c s a na l ys i s 14 unit to m a n a o e or d i r e c t the efforts, of -- I can't 15 r e m e m b e r e x a c t l y -- it was e i t h e r two or three 16 chemists, three chemists and three technicians. I 17 b elieve. And in a d d i t i o n to that I was h i r e d to be the 18 G C / M S analyst. We had one i n s t r u m e n t , and it was my 19 20 0 duty to perform, those analyses. Were the analyses that were performed in that office 21 u n d e r y o u r s u p e r v i s i o n or b y y o u a n a l y s e s of s a m p l e s 4*S-4.H t a k e n to d e t e c t w h a t k i n d of m a t e r i a l s ? 23 A B a s i c a l l y eve ry o ro a n i c c o m p o u n d that EPA was c o n c e r n e d 904623 ------- -------------------- : :- ; 3s 1 with. So, that i n c l u d e d pesticides'. PCBs, a whole 2 shopping list of organic toxicants that eventually was 3 systematized under the system called the priority 4 pollutant list. 5 W h a t is a p r i o r i t y p o l l u t a n t list? 6 B a s i c a l l y it was a list of compounds that was agreed to 7 by a gr oup of lawyers to form a consensus decree. And ' 8 after that consenses agreement was reached the analysts 6 in the l a b o r a t o r y then had to go about t r y i n a to 10 a n a l y z e s a m p l e s f r o m the e n v i r o n m e n t f o r t h i s l i s t of 11 c h e m i c a l s . 12 W h y wou l d a s u b s r a n c a a p oear on a p r i o r i t v o o ll u ta n 13 list, if you know? 14 B a s i c a l l y b e c a u s e g r o u o s such as the E n v i r o n m e n t ] 15 D e fe n se P u n d . the A u d u b o n Society, the list of oro uc s 16 who w e r e s u i n g EPA for not d o i n g its job b e c a u s e they 17 felt it s h o u l d b6 there b e c a u s e of p o t e n t i a l 18 e n v i r o n m e n t a l h a r m . IS Are the s u b s t a n c e s on this list, to your know-ledoe . 20 r e g u l a t e d ? 21 I b e l i e v e so. 22 Y o u ju s t t o l d me a b o u t the first, io b t h a t y o u w e r e in 23 w h e n you w e r e w i t h the EPA. D i d that chance over time? 904624 --- =- ----------- -------------- -- -- --- ---------------------- '-- 1 A No. Thera's one aspect I didn't men tio n was the aspect 2 of serving as a -- I was de si g n a t e d a regional expert 3 in toxic substances. And as part of that job 1 was 4 involved in court cases with EPA. 5 Q How many court cases were you involved in durina that 6 period? 7 A I c a n 't r e m e m b e r e x a c t l y . I t h i n k I o n l y a c t u a l l y 8 t es t i f i e d four or five times. M any of them were 9 settled out of court. There must have been at least a 10 d o z e n , m a y b e a d o z e n a n d a h a l f . 11 0 W h a t wa s the n a t u r e of y o u r t e s t i m o n y , if y o u can 12 s u m m a r i z e it? 13 A B a s i c a l l y to test i f y to the levels of the va r iou s 14 c h e m i c a l s t h a t w e r e f o u n d a nd h o w the a n a l y s i s was 15 performed. 1 5 0 Is it f a i r to say that d u r i n a the p e r i o d f r o m 1976 tc 17 A p r i l of 1 982 w h e n vou w e r e w i t h the EPA t hat y o u r w o r k 13 was l i m i t e d to the d e t e c t i o n and i d e n t i f i c a t i o n of 19 various chemicals in substances? 20 A I t h i n k t h a t 's a f a i r s t a t e m e n t . 21 0 22 You did not do any work during that period on tne human h e a l t h e f fe c t s of any of those s u bstances, did you? 23 A No. 904625 -------------------------------- -------------------------------------------:-------------------------------- --Sv 1 Did you do any work during that period on the health 2 effects to animal life of those substances on the 3 priority pollutant list? 4 No. 5 Did you do any work durina that period on the 6 phe n o me n o n of bio ac cu mu lat ion or bio m a g n i fi c at io n in 7 animal organisms of substances on the priority 8 pollutant list? 5. N o . 10 I s a w a r e f e r e n c e s o m e w h e r e in the f i l e to a c a s e 11 i n v o l v i n g y o u r e x p e r t t e s t i m o n y in a c r i m i n a l 12 p r o c e e d i n a ; is t h a t c o r r e c t ? 13 Yes. 14 What was that case? 15 I 'm n o t s u r e w h i c h on e y o u 're r e f e r r i n g to. H o s t of 16 them were criminal proceedings. 17 How do you d e f i n e c r i m i n a l p r o c e e d i n o ? 18 Well, we were pr os ec u ti no people for breakina the law. IS With a p o t e n t i a l p r i s o n s e n t e n c e or fines: is that 20 c o r r e c t ? 21 Y e s . 22 A n d w h e n v o u s a y t h a t v o u w e r e i n v o l v e d in 12 to IS 23 cases are we t alkina about cases filed in a court or 904626 ----- -----------------------------------:-- ------------------:-------------------5T 1 before an administrative agency? 2 A I believe most of these were filed in c o u r t . 3 0 How many of the four to five cases that you actually 4 te stified in can you recall the def en da nt s in those 5 6A cases? Well, one of them was the E n v i r o n m e n t a l Chemical 7 Control Company. I don't remember the man's name. 8 0 And br iefly what was the al lea ati on in that case? 9 A Well, the al leaation was that be had violated the 10 F e d e r a l C l e a n W a t e r A c t or h i s c o m p a n y had. 11 0 W h a t w a s th e n a t u r e of y o u r t e s t i m o n y in t h a t c a s e ? 12 A I t e s t i f i e d to the f i n d i n a of c e r t a i n c h e m i c a l s on h i s 13 site that linked his site to some unique, chemicals in 14 the w a s t e d i s c h a r g e from, I" b e l i e v e it was. Cifca G e i a y 15 in Connecticut. 15 0 Can you r e m e m b e r any of the d e f e n d a n t s in the orhsr 17 c a s e s v ou t e s t i f i e d in? 18 A Well, let's see. T h e r e was one w i t h an i n t e r e s t i n a 19 na m e . Y a k a v a z i . I t h i n k w a s one. A n d t h a t c a s e h a d tc 20 do w i t h d u m p i n g i n t o a l a n d f i l l . 1 b e l i e v e . 21 Q C a n y o u r e m e m b e r a n y o t h e r s ? 22 A g a i n , I ' m l o o k i n g fo r c a s e s in w h i c h vou a c t u a l l y 23 t e s t i f i e d in a p r o c e e d i n g . 904627 r ------- -------------------------------- ;-- !------------------------------------------ ------ :-- --------------- - 0 1 Yes. Yea. I believe one was Meyer's Landfill. I 2 believe it was Meyer's. It was a landfill in 3 P e n n s y l v a n i a . A n d t h a t b a s i c a l l y w a s a c a s e of -ust a 4 passive landfill that had bean created and vas then 5 leaking m a t e r i a l s . And I testified to the materials 6 that we found in the waste stream coming from the 7 landfill. T h a t was a jury trial, as I recall. 8 There was another one before a Grand Jury, but I 9 c a n 't r e m e m b e r . A n d t h a t w a s in S c r a n t o n , 10 P e n n s y l v a n i a . I d o n ' t r e m e m b e r the n a m e of it. B u t 11 t h a t w a s p r e s e n t i n o t e s t i m o n y b e f o r e a G r a n d J u r v . A n d 12 I d o n ' t r e m e m b e r w h i c h l a n d f i l l it h a d to do w i t h . 13 H a v e y o u k e p t c o p i e s of th e t r a n s c r i p t s of the 14 p r o c e e d i n o s of any of th o s e cases? 15 I m a y h a v e a f e w of th e m . I d o n 't r e m e m b e r a ny 16 p a r t i c u l a r r e a s o n to k e e p them, b u t it s e e m s to iv.f I 17 h a v e a file d r a w e r I h a v e n ' t p u r g e d yet. 18 Don't puros it before you talk to me. 19 Yes. Okay. W h a t e v e r . 20 W e r e a n y of t h e s u b s t a n c e s t h a t y o u w e r e i d e n t i f y i n o in 21 the c a s e s y o u t e s t i f i e d in P C B s ? 22 T h e P C B a n a l y s i s w o u l d h a v e b e e n d o n e by on e of the 23 o t h e r c h e m i s t s in the l a b o r a t o r y . Now, each rime we 904628 ---------------- ------------------- ---------------------------------------- -- -------------------------------------------;-----------5S-- 1 would analyze a landfill leachate, for instance, the 2 list of thinos that would be looked for would include 3 PCBe, but that would not be done by C/MS. 4 Now, I wight wind up being asked about the 3 particular number that was pro du ced because it would 6 have been done by a chemist under my supervision. I'm 7 not sure whether that's a yes or a no. 8 0 I'm not sure I understand your answer. Do you recall 9 a c t ua l ly t e s t i f y i n o in any of the cases e ither that you 10 have m e n t i o n e d or others that you h a v e n ' t m e n t i o n e d to 11 the p r e s e n c e of P C B s in a n y of th e m a t e r i a l s t h a t form, 12 13 A 14 the allegations against the defendant? j I don't remember testifyino to the amounts of PCBs that j i 'i were found, n o . j 15 0 What led to y o u r t e l l i n g me abo u t b e i n g a r e o i on a l 16 e xpert was my q u e s t i o n to you as to w h e t h e r your job 17 h a d c h a n c e d o v e r the t i m e y o u w e r e w i t h the EP A at 18 R e a i o n 3. A n d t h e n y o u t o l d me a b o u t b e i n o a r e o i o n a l 15 e x p e r t . 20 Were there anv chanoes in your job descr ipt ion 21 f r o m the t i m e y o u s t a r t e d u n t i l y o u l e f t in '82? 22 A I ' m t r y i n o to t h i n k . I 'm n o t s u r e if y o u ' r e i n c l u d i n g 23 in your ques tio n the entire period I worked for E F A . 904629 -------------- ------------ '---- ; --------------- :--------------;---------------- T T 1 No. I ' m .iust i n c l u d i n g t h e -- 2 At the central regional unit -- 2 In A n n a o o l i s . 4 O k a y . I 'm t r y i n g to t h i n k to g e t it s t r a i g h t . T h e r e 5 were some management chances. I continued performing 6 GC/MS analysis the entire time I was there. I served 7 as a. r e g i o n a l e x p e r t the e n t i r e t i m e I w a s t h e r e . A n d 8 I c a n 't r e m e m b e r w h e t h e r for some m a n a g e m e n t r e a s o n 9 d u r i n g the last year we c h a n g e d the s tr u c t u r e so it 10 d i d n ' t i n c l u d e a c h i e f of the o r g a n i c s a n a l y s i s u n i t . 11 I c a n 't r e m e m b e r . 12 I'm v agu ely thinking that during the last year 13 thev m a y have r e s t r u c t u r e d it sc m o r e of the p e o p l e 14 retorted directly to the laboratory chief rather than 15 h a v i n g the s t r u c t u r e of a chief of the o r a a n i cs 16 a na ly s is unit, chief of an i n o r ga ni cs a n al ys i s unit and 17 t h e n b o t h of t h e s e p e o p l e r e p o r t i n g d i r e c t l y to the lab 18 c h i e f . 19 There was another fellow, a Ph.D. fellow, 20 geochemist, who was head of the inorganics analysis 21 unit. It was a s y m m e t r i c a l s t r u c t u r e . A n d he left, 22 t o o k a n o t h e r p o s i t i o n . A n d t h e y m a y h a v e r e a r r a n g e d it 23 iust a little in the last year. That's the only 904630 T ------------------- ---- ----- ------------------------------ ------ ---------- i m 1 p o s s i b l e change I cou ld think of in duties that m ig ht 2 have taken place. 30 4 Why did you leave the Region 3 to go to work for the FBI? 5 A I was i n ter est ed in spe ndina more of my time doing 6 research. The types of samples that we analyzed when I 7 first joined EPA a co ns id era ble amount of the work fell S into develooina new methods, doina.research type S procedures. 10 0 W a s t h i s w h e n y o u w e r e in the C h e s a p e a k e B a y p r o o r a m or 11 R e g i o n 3? 12 A No. No. T h i s was at R a o i o n 3. Durincr t h a t p e r i o d cf 13 N o v e m b e r . '76 to A p r i l . '82 E P A the r e g i o n a l o f f i c e s of 14 E P A b e c a m e -- I 'm s o r r y -- r e g i o n a l l a b o r a t o r i e s of E P A 15 became much more' dedic ate d to analy zin g a steady strea m 16 of s a m p l e s fo r p a r t i c u l a r c o m p o u n d s u s i n a set 17 m e t h o d o i o a y . M o r e of a p r o c e s s lab w i t h v e r y l i t t l e 18 r e s e a r c h . And I got ti r e d of d o i n o that. 19 0 I t a k e it. then, it w a s a v o l u n t a r y d e p a r t u r e ? 20 A O h , v e s . 21 O A n d b e f o r e v o n w e r e at R e a i o n 3 y o u w e r e at the 22 C h e s a p e a k e Bay p r o o r a m a l s o in A n n a p o l i s ; is that 23 c or r e c t ? 904631 j To 1 Yes. 2 Is chat p a r t of R a o i o n 3 or is that the central o f fi c e ? 3 Oh, you mean the Chesapeake Bay prograa? 4 T h a t 's c o r r e c t . 5 That was really not an office. It was a program that 6 was d e s i g n e d to do certain' t h i nas. Part of the s taff 7 was located in Annap oli s at the EPA space there. The 8 upper mana gement of the prooran was located in the 9 Region 3 office space in Philadelphia. 10 You d e sc r i b e your p o s i t i o n there as an 11 environmentalist. What does that mean? 12 Is that a tech ni ca l name for your -13 That was the title that was on mv iob d e s c r i p t io n. 14 I t h o n a h t they were all e n v i r o n m e n t a l i s t s at the EPA. 15 No. Some are chemists. Some are rese arc h chemists. 16 What is the iob d e s c r i D t i o n of an e n v i r o n m e n t a l i s t at 17 t h a t t i m e ? 18 I'm not sure I can tell you. I can tell you wh a t I was 19 doina. I was in the slot labeled e nv ir o nm en t al i st 20 b e c a u s e that was the slot that was o p en at the time I 21 was hired. 22 What were you doing d u r i n g that? 23 I was i n v o l v e d in d e s i g n i n g the C h e s a p e a k e B a y ' p r o g r a m 904632 ' 57 1 chat was at that point just in the paper stace, was 2 planned for a five-year program involvina state of 3 Maryland, state of Virginia EPA personnel. 4 0 What's the oeneral nature of that program? 5 A Well, the who l e thrust of it was to try to figure out 6 what was ha pp en in a to the Che sa pe ak e Bay, why certain 7 species were disappearing, to doc um ent which ones were 8 d i s a p o e a r i n c a n d w h i c h w e r e n 't, w h a t the c a u s e s m i c h t 9 be. w h a t p o s s i b l e r e m e d i e s m i a h t be. 10 0 A n d w a s t h a t a p r o c r a m t h a t w a s s t a r t e d by th e E P A * 11 A 12 This oroaram actually got startad through efforts I cruess at the c r a s s r o o t s le v e l . It a p p e a r e d as a 13 f u n d i n g a l l o c a t i o n , a l i n e i t e m in E P A ' s b u d o e t p u t 14 there by c e r t a i n C o n c r e s s m e n . I think it was like S25 15 m i l l i o n . So, in t hat s e n s e EPA d i d n o t s t a r t it. 16 C o n c r e s s s t a r t e d it. T h e y said to EPA you will do this 17 pr o c r a m . 18 0 T h a t f u n d i n a o c c u r r e d when? 19 A I b e li e ve it was in 1976. 20 O Had you done any work on the Che sa pe ak e Bay area prior 21 .to M a y of '76V 22 A Ves. 23 0 Was chat with W e s t i n c h o u s e ? 904633 ' ' ------------------ ----- -------------- --- ----------- ------- --- " 5 T 1 Yes . 2 W a s W e s t i n g h o u s e i n v o l v e d at all in the S P A 's p r o g r a m 3 chat baoan sometime in ' 76? 4 No. 5 You say that vou d e s i g n e d the i ni t i a l phases of the 6 toxics program. What does that mean? 7 Well, that means that for the six months I was there I . 8 was wo r k in g on sort of sk et chi ng out the tasks which I 5 felt needed to be done in the area of locking for toxic 10 p ol lu ta n ts . I guess if y o u w a n t t h a t word, that m i g h t 11 be i m p a c t i n g th e C h e s a p e a k e B a y s y s t e m . 12 Did; y o u r w o r k e v e n t u a l l y r e s u l t in a w r i t t e n p r o p o s a l 13 or a d e s c r i p t i o n of a p r o g r a m ? 14 It w a s p a r t of a d e s c r i p t i o n of a p r o g r a m . B u t I d o n ' t 15 t h i n k a n y t h i n g e v e r a p p e a r e d t h a t w a s M u n s o n 's p o r t i o n If o f t h i s p r o g r a m . 17 So. if I w e r e to l o o k at the u l t i m a t e d e s c r i p t i o n of IS the C h e s a p e a k e B a v p r o g r a m , y o u w o u l d n ' t f i n d a n v t n i n r IS that had been spe cif ic all y written by you, whether or 20 not it says it was wri tte n by you? 21 No, I . d o n ' t t h i n k so. 22 Is it fair to say that you s k e t c h e d out some 23 r e c o m m e n d a t i o n s and p a s s e d t h o s e a l o n e to so m e o n e else 904634 ----- ------------ ----------- :------------ ----------------- 5 9 " 1 who may have modified or incorporated them into the 2 final program? 3 A Yes, I think that's fair. 4 0 Who was the person you wo uld have passed that alone to? 5 A I'm not exactly sure. I was not actually specifically 6 replaced with a particular person because when I became !!i 7 p ar t of the central r e a i o n a l l a b o r a t o r y as one of my 8 d uties as a r e a i o n a l e xpert in toxic s u b s t a n c es I was 9 a v a i l a b l e to them as a c on su ltant. And so I sat in on / 10 some meatinas. And thev did not replace me with a 11 Ph.D. c h e m i s t , b i o c h e m i s t t v o e p e r s o n , 12 v Is rhe d e s c r i n r i o n that, y o u a e s i a n e d the i n i t i a l c h a s e s 13 of the t o x i c s proa-ram. d o e s t h a t c o v e r e v e r v t h i n a v o u 14 d i d fo r t h e E P A during- t h a t p e r i o d ? 15 A I think so. That's pr ett y much what I was invo lve d in 16 in th o s e six m o n t h s was the b e g i n n i n g s of the 17 C h e s a p e a k e Bay pro g r a m . 18 0 W h a t sorts of resea r c h , if any, did you do that led to 19 w h a t e v e r it was that you p r o d u c e d d u r i n g that pe riod? 20 A Well, m u c h of what took pla c e at that time was kind of 21 p o l i t i c a l in nature. T h e r e w e r e m a n y m e e t i n g s held 22 with comm uni ty groups, with un iv e r s i t y groucs aa the rin c 23 inp u t from all sides b e c a u s e it was a n t i c i p a t e d this 904635 1 2 3 4 5 f 7 '8 S 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 IS 20 21 22 23 ---- ---- ;---------------------------- ----------------- -------------- T T was going to be a very emotional political business, the whole Chesapeake Bay program. And so aside from the in for ma tio n I already had at my finoertips from having worked on the Chesapeake Bay, Westinghouse, myself tooether with several other people we part icipated in meatinos with un iversity and citizens groups. For what purpose? To gather their inputs about what they thought needed to be d o n e . I t 's p r o b a b l y d i f f i c u l t fo r y o u to i m a c i n e how such a p r o g r a m is put together. But w h e n a procrram l i k e t h i s is i n s t i g a t e d by s e v e r a l U. S. s e n a t o r s i t ' s very different from a typical scientific study. First you attend to politics. Then you attend to science. Okay. And just so I'm clear, in your CV the term toxics p r o g r a m refers to the i n v e s t i a a t i v e p r o a r a m that was done e x c l u si ve ly in connec tio n with the Che sap ea ke Bav project: is that c o r r e c t ? Yes. Yes. If you can i m a a i n e a o r o o r a m s t a r r e d as boxes on a b lackboard. The re was a b o x called the t o x i c s p r o g r a m . A n d t h a t t h e n e v o l v e d i n t o many, marvv diff er en t sorts of tasks. But all the boxes were related to the Chesapeake Bay 904636 ---------- ------------------- ----------------------------------------------- ;--------------------61- 1 project? 2 A Yes. 3Q 4 5A Why did you leave that job and go into R eg i o n 3 at the laboratory? Be cause that job was go ing to be p r i m a ri l y a paoer 6 pushin g job. And I wa nt ed to be in the laboratory. 7 Q Can you des cri be what the job was go ina to be that 8 leads y o u to c h a r a c t e r i z e it as p a p e r p u s h i n g ? S A Well, it was more and more meetings with people. Other 10 people woul d have been doing the research with their 11 own hands, w o r k i n g w i t h the e g u i p m e n t . plavin-a wir h the. 12 e q u i p m e n t . T o me i t 's c l a y in the l a b o r a t o r y w c r k i n c 13 w i t h the e l e c t r o n i c i n s t r u m e n t s that one uses r o d a v , a s 14 an a n a l yt ic a l chemist. And there was g o i n a to be lots 15 of m e e t i n a s . lots of r e p o r t w riting, that sort of 16 thine, w h i c h is not what I enjoy doing. 17 0 D i d y o u a p p l y for a n y of the r e s e a r c h p r o j e c t s in 18 c o n n e c t i o n w i t h that p r o j e c t ? 19 A T h e r e r e a l l y w e r e n 't g o i n g to be a n y . E P A 's r o l e in 20 this project was to be sort of an umbr ell a aoency 21 m a n a o i n a it. The r e s e a r c h was done by u n i v e r s i t y 22 groups who were given funding from the EPA p r o g r a m . 23 Well, I'm sorry. C e r t a i n mar t s of it were done in the 904637 ----- ------------ ----- ;------------------ ---------------- ------------- ;------- ---------- n 1 central regional laboratory itself. And in fact. I did 2 some samples related to the Chesapeake Bay program in 3 my po si t i o n as chemist. 4 Did you apply for any of the un iv ersity-rela t e d jobs 5 that were han dl i ng some of the rese arc h in connection 6 with the Chesapeake Bay project? 7 N o , I did n o t . ' 8 (.Defendant's Depo sit io n Exhibit 6 was marked for 9 identification.) 10 S h ow in g you w h a t we have just m a r k e d as your d e p o s i t i o n 11 E x h i b i t No. 6, c a n y o u i d e n t i f y t h a t d o c u m e n t for m e ? 12 Yes. T h a t looks like an 171 s t a t e m e n t that I put 13 t o g e t h e r at one point. Okay. 14 For ail those at this table who d o n ' t k n o w what a 171 15 s t a t e m e n t is -- 16 T h a t 's w h a t o n e f i l l s o u t w h e n o ne i s a p p l y i n g f o r a 17 g o v e r n m e n t job. IS W h i c h job w e r e y o u a p n i v i n o for w h e n y o u filler] out 15 this statement? 20 A c t u a l l v I t h i n k I m a v h a v e a p p l i e d for b o t h of them. 21 But I n e e d e d to leave W e s t i n a h o u s e . A n d X had been 22 t a lk in g to the p e o p l e at C h e s a p e a k e Bay or at the 23 E n v i r o n m e n t a l P r o t e c t i o n A g e n c y ' s lab. I was told they 904638 1 w o u ld h ave tw o p o s i t i o n s o p e n . One w o u ld be th e 2 chemist position, the other one the environmentalist's 3 posi ti o n. An d I e s s e n t i a l l y ha d a p p l i e d for both of 4 them. 50 I'm confused. I did not find a date that this was 6 p re p a r e d . C a n you tell me w h a t the date is of Ex h i b i t 7 6? S A Let's see. Oh, wait a minute. I'm sorry. I mav be in error here. This may be the one that I used when I 10 a p p l i e d to the FBI. Oh. it m u s t be. of c o u r s e . I 11 a l r e ad y have the p o s i t i o n . P a r d o n me. I'm in error. 1 2 We were t a l k i n a about this EPA thina.. 13 0 Okay. So. E x h i b i t 6 was a f o r m y o u f i l l e d out in 14 c o n n e c t i o n w i t h y o u r a p p l i c a t i o n for nob w i t h the FBI* 15 A Yes. That's for sure. 16 0 So, the date w o u l d be s o m e t i m e in 1582: is that r i o h r * 17 A Let's see. Th a t s h o u l d have been. Yes. I thi n k so. 18 Or p o s s i b l y -- I'm not sure w h e n this iob o o e n i n o 19 a p p e a r e d . It w o u l d be l a t e '81 or -- In fact. I t h i n k 20 i t ' s m o s t l i k e l y l a t e 1 9 81. 21 0 T h i s is n o t an E P A d o c u m e n t ? 22 A This? 23 0 Yes . 904639 --------- ------------------ ----------------- ----------------- :--------- 5 T A No. Ess e n t i a l l y what I did is I took the -- - Q Let me go through this step by step. The form itself, is this an EPA form or is it a f e d e r a l g o v e rn me n t form? A I t 's a f e d e r a l g o v e r n m e n t f o r m . Q And what was your purpose in filling this out, again? A I used this e s s e n t i a l l y as a CV to su bm it to the FBI. The FBI being a govern men t agency asks you to apply by filling out a 171. But for a person in the po s i t i o n I w as in at t h a t t i m e w i t h m y e x p e r i e n c e a 171 is n e t really an app rooriate form to lay out the i n f o r m a r i o n . So, what I did was I took a pa i r of s c i s s o r s and some glue and e s s e n t i a l l y I made my own. This is the front p a r t , o n e s e c t i o n of the 17.1, a n d t h e n the p r i n t e d p o r t i o n on the b o t t o m is w h a t I a d d e d to this s e c t i o n . T h e n this p a a e 3 is a n o t h e r s e c t i o n of the 171 and t h e n what I added to it. T h a t ' s w ha t this d o c u m e n t is. 3 Okay. Now, on the second pace of E xhibit 6 there is a reference to expert testimony that you provided for the EPA in 1976. I don ' t r e c a l l vour t e l l i n g me about that in conne cti on with your iob with either of your EPA jobs. Is that s o m e t h i n g y o u did for the E P A in 1976? \ I b e li e ve that at the time I did that I was a c u a l l v a Westing hou se employee. It was just shortly before I 904640 ' ' -- ------ ------------------------------- ----- ;---- ------- :--- ST 1 left W e s ti no ho us e. In fact. I b el i e v e it was that it e m 2 t h a t g e n e r a t e d t h a t affidavit, to R i d g w a y Hall. So. 3 w h a t e v e r the date of that a f f i d a v i t that would pin it 4 down a little bit. 5 But I was still w o r k in g for Wes t in gh o us e at the 6 time. I was e s s e n t i a l l y g r a n t e d a leave of a bs enc e bv 7 W e s t i n o h o u s e for a p e r i o d of a week. T he y used me as a ' 8 witness and then used me as a consul tan t for the S remainder of that week, possibly two-week period. I . 10 11 Q forget. W e r e y o u s t i l l on W e s t i n o h o u s e 's p a y r o l l at the t i m e 12 y o u w e r e s e r v i n g as an e x p e r t w i t n e s s for the EPA in 13 76 ? 14 A H o w e v e r chav do those chinas. I was g r a n t e d a leeve 15 w it h o u t oav. And d u r i n g that per io d EPA paid me. 1o 0 And then you went back to We stinohouse? 17 A Yes . 18 0 I see. Which effluents standards for PCBs were being 19 20 A consi de re d in the hearinas you testified at? I don't really remember. 21 0 W ha t was the n a t u r e of vour t e s t i m o n y ? 22 A B a s i c a l l y my t e s t i m o n y had to do w it h tran sp or t of PCBs 23 in the e n v i r o n m e n t based on my studies in the 904641 i Chesapeake Bay. '1 , 11"-- ----1 1 ... O* O'P 2 W h a t k i n d of m e d i u m w e r e y o u t e s t i f y i n g abour. 3 transporting PCBa? 4 Let's see. We had some data, aerial fallout data. 5 M o s t of it had to do w i t h the a q u e o u s s y s t e m of the 6 medium in the water. 7 How do you define aqueous medium? ' 8 Well, essentially the water and suspended sediments and 9 w h a t e v e r is in the water. 10 Was your t e s t i m o n y c o n c e r n i n o the C h e s a p e a k e Bay area? 11 Yes. The o nly other work I did that wasn't 12 U e s t i n g n o u s e o r o o r i e t a r y w o r k was in the n e a r - s h c r e 13 e n v i r o n m e n t in San Dieao. 14 W h a t was the p u r p o s e of the a f f i d a v i t that you p r o v i d e d 15 us earlier? 16 What was the r e l a t i o n s h i p b e t w e e n that and your 17 t e s t i m o n y w i t h the E P A in '76? 18 I b e l i e v e the m a i n t h r u s t of it had to do w i t h -- 19 I d o n ' t m e a n its c o n t e n t . W h y d i d y o u d r a f t an 20 affidavit in co nne cti on with testi mon y you were 21 p r o v i d i n o ? 22 Beca use R i d a w a y Hall asked me to. 23 Who read the a f f i da vi t? Do you know? ------------------------------ -- ------- ----- ------ - 904642 ______ ;----- ---------- :-----------: 1 ---- ;--------- : ;---------------- :------------- &T 1 A I'm not sure. 2 0 Was the af fidavit es s e n t i a l l y your wri tte n summary of 3 the testimony you save at the BPA hearings? 4 A No. I d o n 't t h i n k so. It h a d to d o w i t h d e t e c t i o n 5 limits . 6 Q A n d t h a t w a s t e s t i m o n y t h a t c o n s u m e d e i g h t h o u r s : is 7 that correct? 8 A Yes. at the hearing. 9 0 Is there a t r a n s c r i p t that you k no w of of those 10 h e a r i n g s ? 11 A Yes . 12 0 Do you have a cooy? 13 A I do not have a copy of it. 14 0 You d on ' t have one here w i t h you tod a y or you d o n' t 15 have one at a l l ? 16 A I d o n ' t h a v e one at all. T h i s was g e n e r a t e d as the 1 ~ T h e y wars b u i l d i n g the r e c o r d t h a t wa s o c i n a to be 18 r e v i e w e d by a p a n e l of i u d o e s w h o w e r e t h e n a o i n o to 19 m a k e s o m e s o r t of a r u l i n a . A n a so v a r i o u s people were 20 b r o u o h t in to t e s t i f y . The- t e s t i m o n y w a s b e i n o 21 r e c o r d e d . 22 0 23 A Was We s t in a ho u se one of the obj ectors? I don't know the answer to that question. 904643 ----- ----------------------- ------------------------------------------ gl1 Can you recall any of the objectors? 2 I r e a l l y don't. I thi n k m a y b e that in this case, if I 3 am rememberi ng right, I think it was bei ng handled 4 through the National Electrical Manufacturers Union or 5 A ss oc ia t io n . I think, as a b o d y r a t h e r than s peci fi c 6 companies. But I mean there was no one there when I m/m w a s t h e r e f r o m W e s t i n g h o u s e n o n e of t h e W e s t i n a h o u s e .8 l a w y e r s t h a t I k n ew. $ Did you know Roaer Wills at that time? 10 I h a v e b e e n r a c k i n o m y b r a i n a b o u t R o a e r W i l l s . I 'm. 11 a b s o l u t e l y sure I ' v e met him. A nd I th i n k I can call 12 u d a f a c e a n d t h a t s o r t of t h i n a . b u t I c a n 't r e m e m b e r i:< w h a t the c o n n e c t i o n s was. So, I ' m n o t su r e w h e r e and 14 wh e n I have met R o a e r Wills. I d o n ' t know. 15 ? H o w I o n a a f t e r y o u h a d the w e e k or so o ff to be ar. 16 e xpert w i tn e s s for the EPA did you leave W e s t i n a h o u s e ? 17 I do n ' t th i n k it was m o r e th a n a few months. 18 ? Had you a l r e a d y d e c i d e d to leave W e s t i n g h o u s e at that 15 time? 20 Westin ghous e had decided i would leave Westinahovise . 21 I see. W h o d i d y o u d i s c u s s t he p o s s i b i l i t y of v o u r 2 2 being an expert witness in these hearinas with from 20 Westinahouse? 904644 1A - :------ -- -------------------- -- ------------- =-- :------ ------- I believe chat discussion was with the -- I haven't 2 thouaht of his name in a lone while. In fact. I don't 3 know. With the man that managed the Weatinghouse 4 O c e a n i c D i v i s i o n at the Bay Bridge site. 5 0 T h a t 's not Mr. K e l l y ? 6 A No. Mr. Kelly was the dir ec tor of the Westinohouse 7 Ocean Research Laboratory, later on called somethino 8 else. That was after the Ocean Research Laboratory 9 didn't exist anymore. 10 Q Was it c ommon for W e s t i n o h o u s e to give leaves cf 11 a b s e n c e to e m p l o y e e s to s e r v e as e x p e r t s in s t a n d a r d s 12 h e a r i n g s l i k e this? 13 A I r e a l l y d o n 't know. 14 0 Did EPA c o n t a c t you to p r o v i d e this t e s t i m o n y or -- 15 A Ves, they con tacted me. 1C. v A n d t h e n y o u a s k e d . W e s t i n g n o u s e s a i d yes; is that 17 IS A correct? Yes . IS 0 Are there any w r i t t e n l etters that you know of or memos 20 r e l a t i n o to t h a t d i s c u s s i o n ? 21 A 22 0 I d o n 't t h i n k so. W he n you beg a n with the EPA in May, '76 your salary was 23 $ 2 2 , 0 0 0 and c h a n g e ; is t h a t c o r r e c t ? 904645 - - ------------------------ -- -------- ------ ----------------- '----- 7T 1 L o o k at p a c e 3. 2 Y e s , chat looks like it. 3 And whe n you left in 1982 it was S32.312 a year? 4 Yes. 5 W ha t was your s a l a r y at the FBI? 6 I think w h e n I left I was up to about 46, I think. GS 7 13 s t e p 7. 8 What is y our s a l a r y w i t h St. C l o u d U n i v e r s i t y ? 9 I think it's 39.000 for nine months or 38.000 and 10 chance. somethin? like that. 11 S i n c e l e a v i n g W e s t i n g h o u s e h a v e y o u d o n e a n y c o n s u l t i n g 12 w o r k o t h e r t h a n th i s c a s e ? 13 I d o n 't r e m e m b e r t h a t I 've d o n e any. 14 In the t e s t i m o n y y o u g a v e w i t h the E P A in '76 w e r e yo> 15 previdinci i n f o r m a t i o n about w ork that you had done at 16 W e s t i n c h o u s e ? 17 Y e s . 18 Did W e s t i n a h o u s e s p e c i f i c a l l y a u t h o r i z e you to t e st i f y 19 before the EPA about that work? 20 Yes. 21 W a s t h e r e a n y w o r k t h a t y o u h a d d o n e w i t h W e s t i n a h o u s e 22 t h a t y o u w e r e s p e c i f i c a l l y d i r e c t e d n o t to d i s : u s s in 23 your t e s t i m o n y b e f o r e the EPA? 904646 1A '--------------------- -- ------- :------- :-------- -- ------- TT Y e s , I chi n k so. T h e r a wee d e f i n i t e l y a body of 2 inforwar.ion which I knew I could not discuss. 3 Q That's not what I'm asking. 4 A Y o u a s k e d s p e c i f i c a l l y , a n d I 'm t r y i n g to r e m e m b e r 5 that. Because you asked about who I met with. And his 6 n a m e h a s n ' t p o p p e d i n t o ray. h e a d y e t . B u t he w a s the 7 top raanaaer on site of the oceanic division. And at 8 that meeting I think we discussed I don't remember S s p e c i f i c a l l y , but I'm sure I must have sa i d to him 10 abcut, vou know, that none of the W e s t i n g h o u s e 11 pr o pr i e t ar y material relating to the plants would be 12 involved in this testimony. 13 3 This m ee ti ng that you just described, did that take 14 place after you had some c o n t a c t w i t h the EPA 15 conce rn in g their desire to have you testify for them? 16 k Yes. 1" 2 A n a had v o u i n d i c a t e d to the EPA that the r e m a y be IS p r o p r i e t a r y i n f o r m a t i o n w h i c h y o u r e c e i v e d at IS H a s r i n o h o u s e whi ch mio ht be relevant, but w hich 20 W e s t i n a h o u s a w o u l d not want you to d i s c l o s e ? 21 ^ I'm t ry in g to think how that went. I'm p r e t t y sure 22 there was. I know that R i d o w a v Hall and I had that 23 d i s c u s s i o n . Now. as to e x a c t l y w h e n b e c a u s e it was 904647 -- ~ = -- ------------- ------------------------------------------- !------------------- n 1 already a natter of record that we had done those 2 studies. So. I m e a n the fact that I had done those 3 studies was not a secret. 4 A matter of record where? 5 There were some earlier hearings when EPA proposed some 6 k i n d of d i s c h a r g e l i m i t s . It w a s in the e a r l y '70s 7 sometime. And at that point General Electric and 8 W e s t i n c h o u s e and s e v e r a l o t hers were p r e s e n t as 9 o bi ectors. And I t e s t i f i e d at those h e a r i n a s as did a 10 person, my c o u n t e r p a r t , e s s e n t i a l l y , from G e n e r a l 11 Electric. And so part of my t e s t i m o n y at that point 12 wa s t h a t we h a d d o n e s o m e s u r v e y s a r o u n d o u r p l a n t s . 13 Were those h e a r i n a s in 1974? Do you r e m e m b e r ? 14 Maybe. I c a n ' t r e m e m b e r the date. I d o n ' t h a v e any of 15 the i n f o r m a t i o n r e l a t i n a to them, I d o n 't b e l i e v e . A n d IS so I 'm a l i t t l e f u z z y w h e t h e r it w a s '72 or '74 or i u s t 17 w h e n that took place. 18 O k a y . I 'm s t i l l u n c l e a r on w h a t y o u d i s c u s s e d w i t h Mr. 19 Ridgway Hall. Did you tell him there had been work 20 d o n e to d e t e r m i n e w h e t h e r t h e r e h a d b e e n a n y PCBs 21 a r o u n d the p l a n t s in the e a r l y '70s? 22 D i d y o u d i s c u s s t h a t w i t h h i m b e f o r e y o u me t w i t h 23 the o c e a n i c d i v i s i o n m a n a a e r to d i s c u s s your t e s t i m o n y ? 904648 1A ---------------------- --------- ------------------ ------------ ------ T-3I r e a l l y d o n 't k n o w if t h a t - - F i r s t of all. in t a l k i n g 2 with Ridgway Hall basically I just told him that I 3 could not discuss on the witness stand or anywhere else 4 any sampling that specifically had to do with 5 W e s t i no h o u se plants. And that was fine because ha 6 didn't want that information. 7 Now, as to whe the r that took place before I asked S W e st i no ho use for per mi ss io n or after"I actually act to 9 10 0 Ridaway Hall's office. I don't remember. All riah-t. Is it at l e a s t tru e -- A n d m a y b e I'm just 11 r e p e a t i n g w h a t y o u h a v e a l r e a d y said. -- th a t no o n e at 12 W e s t i n o h o u s e s o e c i f i c a l l v t o l d y o u y o u c o u l d not 13 d i s c l o s e the contents of the w ork that you had done 14 s a m p l i n o a r o u n d the p l a n t s e a r l i e r in the 1970s at 15 these EPA hearings in '76? 16 A I d o n 't ha v e a n y t h i n a in w r i t i n a as to cur 17 c o n v e r s a t i o n . But as to w h e t h e r t h e v t o l d me cr I told 13 them. I d o n ' t k n o w . B u t m v u n d e r s t a n d i n g a- t h a t t i m e 19 was this i nfo rma tio n was still company proprietary. 20 But i t 's no r w r i t t e n m a r c h i n a o r d e r s f r o m them. 21 Q Or v e r b a l m a r c h i n a o r d e r s ? 22 A V e r b a l I ' m n o t su r e . See. I w a s in the p o s i t i o n of 23 w e l l , I w a s n 't r e a l h i g h u o in the c o r p o r a t i o n . I was 904649 74 1 e x p e c t e d to k now w hat to do and what not to do in terms 2 of t h i s i n f o r m a t i o n . A n d I 'm s u r e in t h e d i s c u s s i o n 3 with -- His name still alludes me. T h er e were several 4 other people in the room. I would have said to him we 5 will not d i s c u s s any of this i n f o r m a t i o n . 6 But you don't recall those words beino spoken, do you? 7 I certainly don't recall him telling me I can't talk -8 about that. That is true. 9 And you also don't recall your saying that to him. do 10 you. as you sit here today? 11 No. No. I'm sure it m u s t ha v e b e e n said. 12 (A r e c e s s w a s t a k e n . ) 13 Dr. Munson, you said that you had p r e v i o u s l y t e s t i f i e d 14 about the lan d f i l l s a m p l i n g you had done e a r l i e r in the 15 '70s b e f o r e the '76 h e a r i n a s ; is that c o r r e c t ? 16 I think I said I t e s t i f i e d that we had done such 17 samolina. I don't think we really said much in the way 18 of data. If I r e m e m b e r c o r r e c t l y . G e n e r a l E l e c t r i c 19 m e n t i o n e d t h a t t h e v h a d beer, s a m p l i n g a r o u n d t h e i r 20 p lants or s o m e t h i n o like that, and we a lio said that we 21 h a d b e e n s a m p l i n g a r o u n d o u r p l a n t s . 22 W h a t is E n v i r o n m e n t a l S y s t e m s at M o n r o e v i l l e Mall? 23 I. d o n ' t k n o w if it s t i l l e x i s t s , b u t t h a t w a s a - g r o u p 904650 -- ------;------- -- --------------- -------------- ;--- ;---1--- :-------- :----- - "T5 1 that was put together to service the Westinahou se power 2 p l a n t c u s t om e r s i n s o f a r as e n v i r o n m e n t a l problems. 3 0 Were you working at that location in 1974? 4 A Ho. We saw ourselves actually as be ing in compet i t i o n 5 with that group. 6 Q You were work ing for Oceanic at that time? 7 A I was w o r k i n g for the O c e a n R e s e a r c h D i v i s i o n or 8 L ab or at o ry , we c a l l e d it. 9 ( D e f e n d a n t 's D e p o s i t i o n E x h i b i t 7 was m a r k e d for 10 11 0 identification.) S h o v i n a v o u a t w o - p a g e d o c u m e n t that we iust m a r k e d as 12 y o u r d e p o s i t i o n E x h i b i t No. 7. h a v e y o u s e e n t h a t 13 d o c u m e n t b e f o r e t oday? 14 A I d on ' t remem b e r . I m a y have. 15 0 I n ot ic e at the b o t t o m it's got y ou r name on it. the 16 b o t t o m of the s ec o n d page. Does that r e f r e s h your 17 r e c o l l e c t i o n as to w h e t h e r you w r o t e this? 18 A I w o u l d cruess it c ame to m e , I d i d not w r i t e this 15 d o c u m e n t , if t h a t 's w h a t y o u ' r e w o n d e r i n a . 20 0 Do vou r e m e m b e r the c i r c u m s t a n c e s in w h i c h you first 21 22 A saw it or you don't remember? I don't specifically remember this do c u m e n t . 23 0 L oo ki na at that document, does that refresh your 904651 -------------- -------------------------------------------------------------;----------- :--------- ;---------------- -- 7T 1 re c o ll e c t io n as to the hea rin gs that you testified to 2 e a r l i e r than 1976 in w h i ch there was m e n t i o n of the 3 sampling? 4 Well, this is the type of m at e r i a l that wou ld have be en 5 put together and p r e s en te d at that hearina. 6 When you say the typ6 of mat erial do you mean that this 7 was the subject matter of the testimony that you aave 8 at those h e a r i n g s ? 9A 10 No. I d i d n ' t t e s t i f y to this. If a n y b o d y t e s t i f i e d to this, it wo uld have been pro ba b lv Jim, Dr. Jim Wriaht. 11 w h o w a s the h e a d of e n v i r o n m e n t a l s y s t e m s d i v i s i o n . 12 W e l l , d i d y o u p r o v i d e a n y t e s t i m o n y at h e a r i n a s a r o u n d 13 M a r c h of 1974 in w h i c h the rest of E x h i b i t 7 was 14 t e s t i f i e d to by someone else, p erhaps Mr. W ri g h t ? , 15 I did t es t if y at a hearina. I don 't r e m e m b e r e x a c t l y 16 if it w a s at this date, b u t it s e e m s l e a i c a l t h a t it 17 was. My t e s t i m o n y I d o n ' t r e m e m b e r e x c e p t th a t I was 18 put on the w i t n e s s sta n d to say a c o u p l e of w o r d s a b o u t 19 s a m p l i n a a round the plant. Now, if there was a 20 r e c o r d i n g of th a t h e a r i n g . I d o n ' t h a v e it. In fact. 21 I 'm n o t s u r e l e v e r h a d it. A n d so m y r e c o l l e c t i o n is 22 no t r e a l c l e a r a b o u t t h i s p a r t i c u l a r h e a r i n a e x c e p t 23 that at that time GE talked about they had done seme 904652 1 samplino. We mentioned that we had done some samplino. 2 0 And you were put on specifically to testify about the 3 samplino. and t h a t > all? 4A 5 That's my recollection. And I don't think I was asked more than about three questions. I don't think my 6 testimony took more than five minutes. It was quire 7 brief. 8 Q On your Exhibit 6 on I quess about the fifth paae under 5 y o u r w o r k at O c e a n R e s e a r c h t h e r e 's a r e f e r e n c e to 10 h e a r i n o s in 1S72 as an i n d u s t r y o b i e c t o r l e s s t h a n one 11 hour. Do y o u see that? 12 A O h . y e s . 15 0 In 1572 testimony? 14 A Y e s . 15 Q Is that the t e s t i m o n y that you are r e f e r r i n g to in 16 w h ic h you t es t i f i e d as to the sa mp li no ? 17 A Yes. I have that here as 1572. Now. let's see. As I 18 said, I don't r e m e m b e r that well. It's p o s s i b l e that I IS w a s in e r r o r , t h a t it r e a l l y w a s '74. I r e a l l y d o n 't 20 k n o w . 21 Does the d e s c r i p t i o n of less than one h o u r of t e s t i m on y 22 r e f r e s h y o u r r e c o l l e c t i o n as to h o w Iona the t e s t i mc n v 23 took pl a c e ? 904653 1 It was brief. It was brief. TIT 2 W h a n y ou say less t h a n one hour, was it less than 10 3 minutes? 4 It could have been. They didn't ask me much, and I 5 recall beina very, very nervous. That was the first 6 time I ever cave any testimony. And I think one or two 7 q u e s t i o n s asked and a n s w e r e d was about the s ub s t a n c e of 8 it. 9 Did W e s t i n g h o u s e know p ri o r to the time you went in to 10 t e s t i f y a b o u t the s a m p l i n g t h a t its e m p l o y e e w a s o o i n a 11 to i d e n t i f y t h e s e m o l i n a t h a t h a d b e e n d o n a e a r l i e r in 12 the '70s? 13 Who do you m e a n by W e s t i n g h o u s e ? 14 W e l l , d i d a n y o n e at W e s t i n g h o u s e .k n o w w h a t the s u b j e c t 15 m a tt e r of your t e s t i m o n y was g oi n g to be? 16 Yes. I was there as p a r t of the e n v i r o n m e n t a l s y stems 17 o r ouo. Dr. W r i g h t at t h a t t ime wa s q u i t e s e n i o r to me. 18 He was m o r e on J o h n K e l l y 'f l e v e l . A n d he w a in 19 c ha r a e of this o p e r a t i o n . Sc, he e s s e n t i a l l y told me 20 that I was goina to go up there and what my purpose 21 was. So. X am. a s s u m i n g he k n e w w h a t I w a s t h e r e to 22 t e s t i f y to. 23 A n d y o u r t e s t i m o n y w a s p a r t of W e s t i n g h o u s e 's 904654 -- -------------- ;------------------------------------- -------- -- T 9 1 p r es e nt at io n at thase haarina s? 2 A Yes. to o b j e c t to E P A 's p r o p o s a l . 3 0 As n e a r as you can r e c a l l it, w h a t was the n a t u r e of 4 your te stimony about the samp lin a dona around the 3 landfills? 6 A I d o n 't k n o w if it w a s r e a l l y -- I 'm n o t e v e n s u r a a 7 specific landfill was stated.' I have a vacue ' 8 re co l le c t i on that we -- Hy purpose re all y was to sav 5 that we had a croup that was doinc some s a m e l i n c . And 10 o t h e r than that I d o n 't recall. At the time I was II r a t h e r s u r p r i s e d that the r e w e r e few q u e s t i o n s asked. 12 I was on a n d I w a s of f in *iusr a f e w minutes-. 13 0 You we r e s u r p r i s e d abo u t w h a t ? 14 A T h a t there were not m o r e q u e s t i o n s asked. 15 0 Who asKed vou the o u e s t i o n s ? Someone from EFA or 16 s o m e o n e from W e s t i n c h o u s e ? 17 A I t h i n k it w a s s o m e b o d y f r o m EPA. 18 Q Did y o u p r o d u c e any d o c u m e n t s in c o n n e c t i o n w i t h your 19 testimony? 20 A Not that I r e m e m b e r . 21 Is it p o s s i b l e y o u p r o d u c e d a c o p y of o n e of the 22 s a m c l i n a r e p o r t s ? 23 I f r a n k l y doubt it. ------------------------------------ -- i---------- 904655 - -------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------- ------ WZ 1 You don't recall that? 2 I d o n 't recall that. I think that would have been very 3 unlikely. 4 The n ex t poi n t on E x h i b i t 6 is a r e f e r e n c e to some more 5 hearings, r e a i st ra t io n hearings, for chlordane in 1975. 6 And is it your t e s t i m o n y that at that time you were 7 providino that testimony for the BPA? . 8 Yes. 9 Is this anot h e r s i t u a t i o n w h e r e you were on leave from 10 W e s t i n c h o u s e to p ro v i d e t e s t i m o n y fcr the EPA? 11 I d o n ' t t h i n k I .was o n l e a v e at t h a t p o i n t . I b e l i e v e 12 that W e s t i n c h o u s e s u p p l i e d me as a c o u r t e s y to E?A 13 f e e l i n c -- I d o n 't know. T h e y have no v e s t e d i n t e r e s t 14 in c h l o r d a n e . 15 Did s o me one tell you we have po i n te re st in this, in 16 c h i or da ne ? 17 P r o b a b l y nor. 18 T ha t ' s vour own s p e c u l a t i o n ? IS T h a t 's m v o w n s p e c u l a t i o n . 20 S t i l l c a n ' t r e m e m b e r th e n a m e of t h e p e r s o n th a t vou 21 went to to cet the leave? 22 No. 23 If it comes to you, please let me know. 904656 ---------------------------------- -- -------- ----------------- -------;------------------ ----f r 1 A Yes. He was the top sanager. 2 C Now, in 1.976 -- I ' m s o r r y 1969. May. y o u w e n t r.o 3 work for Westinahouse. riaht? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Before your work for Wesr.inohouse you were with a 6 family-owned business? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Called Enchanter, Inc.? S A Yes. 10 Q Were you born in California? 11 A Yes. 12 p What wasthe b us i n e s s of Enchanter. Inc.? 13 A O c e a n o g r a p h i c 14 0 What did that research. entail? 15 A Primarv customer was Orange County Sa nit ati on Di str ict 16 s e m o l i n a the o c e a n for w a t e r samples, b o t t o m s a m p l e s , 17 t h a t s o r t of thina. in r e l a t i o n to d i s c h a r g e of s e v a a e 18 into the o c e a n . 19 0 Whatwere you sampling for? 20 A B a si ca ll y we were col le ct in g samples that were 21 d e l i v e r e d to O r a n a e C o u n t y for a n a l y s i s for thinas like 22 oil and g re a s e and coliform. the items they were 23 r e g u i r e d to a nalyze to m a i n t a i n their d i s ch ar ge Dermic. 904657 ----- -- ------------------ ----------------------------------------------------;------------------------2T 1 Did you do oas c h r omatography in conne ct io n with that 2 work? 3 No. 4 How did you analyze the samples? 5 I didn't. 6 Did you send them to some lab to be analyzed? 7 They were analyzed by the Orange County Sanitation 8 District laboratory. c So. is it f a i r to s a v t h a t y o u s i m p l y c o l l e c t e d .the 10 s a m p l e s f o r s o m e o n e e l s e 's a n a l y s i s ? 11 T h a t 's c o r r e c t . 12 And w h y did y o u leave that p o s i t i o n to go to w o r k for 13 W e s t i n g h o u s e ? 14 I was s t a r v i n g . 15 Is that c o m p a n y still in b u s i n e s s ? 16 Yes. 17 Is it s t i l l o w n e d by y o u r f a m i l y ? 18 No. IS Who is it o w n e d bv? / 20 I t 's o w n e d b v a p e r s o n n a m e d T o m P e s s i c h , 21 P - e - s - s - i - c - h . 22 D id y o u ha v e any f u l l - t i m e e m p l o y m e n t b e f o r e E n c h a n t e r . 23 Inc.? I " --------------------: ------- :------ ! 904658 ----- --- ------'-------------------------------------- i-------------- -J-5- 1A 20 No. Do you curre ntl y belong to any societies, academy 3 4A societies, learned societies? : i I belona to the Ame ri c an Chemical Soc iety and Phi Kappa 5 Phi. ! 6 O Do either of those groups reouire any certif ica tio n or 7 testing for membership? 8 A Well, Phi Kappa Phi is a h o n o r a r y w h e r e you don't 9 apply, you're selected for membership. American 10 C h e m i c a l S o c i e t y I d o n ' t th i n k there is any. 11 0 12 You began work for Wes ti ng ho u se in 1969 in San Diego. i C a l i f or n ia : is that richt? 13 A Yes. 14 C A n d y o u r i m m e d i a t e s u p e r v i s o r was Dr. W.;D. C l a r k ? 15 A : Yes. 16 0 And then moved to Annapolis when the Ocean Resear ch 17 L a b o r a t o r y m o v e d to A n n a p o l i s ; is that ri a h t ? 18 A Yes. 19 0 Was there an A n n a p o l i s o f f i c e w h e n the San Dieco offi c e 20 21 A was open or did they move the whole operation th e r e ' T h e y m o v e d the. w h o l e o p e r a t i o n . i j 22 W h a t w a s the n a t u r e of y o u r w o r k f r o m '69 to '70 in San I, 23 Di e o o ? 904659 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 '8 i> 'S 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2G 21 22 23 --------- ------------------------------------ ----------------- ------------------:-- -------------s r I was d o i n g m e a s u r e m e n t s of p e s t i c i d e s and PCBs in animals and sediments in the near-shore marine enviro nm en t of San Diego. What did you do to test for those substances? I collected the samples and analyzed them by gas chromatography. Were you operating a gas chromatograph out in San Diego at that time? A cas c h r o m a t o c r a D h , yes, I w a s . I take it that the gas chroma to gra ph y procedu re has d e v e l o p e d o v e r time to be mor e precise,* is t h a t r i g h t ? In relation to what? In. o t h e r words, it d e v e l o p e d to be able to d e t e c t sma l le r and s m a l l e r q u a n t i t i e s of the s u b s t a n c e s that it was l o ok in g for; is that right? Yes. I think, yes. that's a fair statement. Is it p o s s i b l e to c h a r a c t e r i z e t h e d e t e c t i o n lirr.it f o r the gas c h r o m a t o g r a p h y d e v i c e at a p a r t i c u l a r point in time? Yes . What was the de te cti on limit of the gas chroma tog rap h tha t v o u w e r e u s i n g in San D i e g o for PCB s in '6? to the 70s? 904660 1A ----------- --------- -- --------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------- :---------------------T 5 I don't reeber exactly. The detection limit has mors 2 to do with whet size sample you're using, or let's sav 3 t h e v a r i a t i o n in d e t e c t i o n l i m i t h a s - o r e to d o w i t h 4 what size sample you're using rather than the oas 5 chromatooraph itself. A particular instrument -- - 6 0 L e t 's me i n t e r r u p t y o u a n d s h o r t - c i r c u i t it. 7 A Right. You d o n 't w a n t a s e m i n a r . Y o u w a n t an answer. 8 0 What was the d e t e c t i o n limit for s ed i m e n t s in the oas 9 chro matograph you were using at that time? 10 Can you answer that question? 11 A I think we ware s o m e w h e r e a r o u n d 12 0 ' I d on ' t w a n t you to speculate. Doctor. If vou c a n 'r 13 remember 14 A O h . n o . I d o n 't r e m e m b e r exact l y . I d o n ' t r e m e m b e r . 15 0 W h a t abo u t for a n i m a l s ? 16 A I d on ' t r e m e m b e r what thev were. 17 0 What kin d s of a n i m a l s w o u l d you test for PCB c o n t e n t in 18 San Di e g o ? IS A Well, we tested abalone. I think we tested some 20 lobsters. I believe we tested scallops. I believe 21 some sea urchins, some snails. 22 0 23 Was the w o r k that was d o n e for W e s t i n g h o u s e a par t of a contract with a third party? 904661 i -------------------------------------------------------------- -- ----------------1-- - -- :-------sir 1 No. 2 Do you know why Westinohousa was sampling rhaf area? 3 Because it was con ve ni en tly located to the location of 4 our laboratory. 5 Is it fair to say that w o r k was pure r e s e a r c h in the 6 sense that it was intended to increase the cap abilities 7 of the measu ri ng device? ' 8 T ha t 's not w h y it was b e i n a done. 9 Why was it beina done? 10 It was b ei n a done to o ro v i d e a r es e a r c h b a c k g r o u n d for 11 the W e s t i n o h o u s a Oce an R e s e a r c h L a b o r a t o r y to enhance 12 our c a p a b i l i t y to aet c o nt ra ct research. 13 I 'm t r v i n a to f i a u r e our. h o w t h a t ' s d i f f e r e n t f r o m w h a r 14 I said. Y o u were t r y i n g to i n c r e a s e your cat>ability to 15 detect small Quantities of these s u b s t a n c e ' s i s that 16 right? 17 No. No. T he p r o g r a m that I took the s a m p l e s for was 18 an e c o l o g i c a l stu d y of the n e a r - s h o r e m a r i n e 19 e n vi r on m en t. And when they hir ed me they said fit into 20 t h i s p r o g r a m s o m e w h e r e . .And so no o n e w a s l o o k i n g at 21 the l e v e l s of t h e s e c h e m i c a l s t h a t w e r e at t h a t time 2 c o ns id er ed important or of concern by others. 23 So. that's where I fit in. So. I took e x i st i n g 904662 ---------------------------------- --- ------- :------- ------------------------ --------;------ 1 equipment which I purchased, pretty much existing 2 methodology, and I analyzed those animals. 3 0 Okay. Do you r e m e m b e r if you found any levels of PCBs 4 in any of those samples? 5A 60 Sure. Yes, I did. Do you remember the levels? t A T he y w er e low. But as s p e c i f i c a l l y , I don't r eme mb er S them. 9 0 Were vou measuring in the parts per million. Darts per 10 thousand, parts per trillion? 11 A Oh. they were low parts per million, I think, for the 12 animal tissues. 13 0 H o w abo u t the s e d i m e n r s ? 14 A I d o n 't r e m e m b e r . I d o n 't r e m e m b e r h o w m a n y s e d i m e n t s 15 there were and just whar levelsthere were. 16 0 Was any of the work that you aid out in San Discc 17 r e d u c e d to a w r i t t e n r e p o r t ? 13 A Ye . 19 O Do you have that report? 20 A I d o n 't h a v e it w i t h me. I t 's a p u b l i s h e d d o c u m e n t 21 that is l is t e d in my CV. 22 0 23 A Where was that published? I think the B u l l e t i n of E n v i r o n m e n t a l C o n t a m i n a t i o n and 904663 TT 1 20 Toxicoloay. Do you know why you were looking for PCBs in those 3 samel as? 4 Y e s . Because other people who were doing DDT residue 5 analysis reported findina PCBs when they did that 6 analysis. 7 Why was that a matter of interest to the Ocean Re sea rch 8 L a bo ra to ry in San Dieoo at that time? S k Because those sci entists co nsi der ed PCBs to have 10 po tential harm to these oraanisms 11 0 W hi c h s c i e n t i s t s were those? 12 k I b e l i ev e m o s t of the r e o o r t s at that time were comi n o 13 out of Sweden. A l t h o u a h . there was one fellow. Dr. 14 Risebrouo'n at U. C. B e r k e l e y , w h o w a s a l s o r e o o r t i n o 15 PCBs . 16 Do you k n o w who the r e s e a r c h e r was in the S w e d i s h 17 r e p o r t 18 I d o n 't r e m e m b e r the -- Jens e n , maybe. I d o n ' t 19 remember the specific reports. 20 3 Had y o u r e a d those r e p o r t s b e f o r e y o u b e g a n the work in 21 San D ie o o or w e r e you s i m o l y i n s t r u c t e d to c ar r y out 22 this p r o j e c t by s o m e o n e else? 23 Oh. no. 1 i n v e n t e d this p r o i e c t . Yes. I read these ' 904664 1 reports. 2 Q In what context had you read these reports? tr 3 A In my searching of the literature about DDT and 4 specifically DDT methodology. 5 Q I 'm c o n f u s e d . I u n d e r s t o o d that y o u w e r e h i r e d i n t o a 6 job that already existed, into a job function that 7 already existed? namely, looking for these various 8 substances and these materials. S A No. No. T h a t w a s an e c o l o g i c a l s t u d y t h a t w a s .beiha- 10 done . The W e s tin gh ous e Ocean Res earch Lab or at o ry was 11 new. T h e y had no track r e c o r d at all. T h e y had h ir e d 12 several scientists. And Dr. Clark instituted this 13 p r o g r a m to s t u d y this n e a r - s h o r e a r e a fro m the point of 14 view of b i o l o a i c a l p o p u l a t i o n s and th6 v ar io us things 15 that b i o l o g i s t s look for. As I said. I n e e d e d a job. 16 I was hunary. And a f r i e n d of mine k n e w the p e o pl e at 17 W e s r i n g h o u s e and sa i d c o u l d vou use a Ph.D. b i o c h e m i s t 18 on y o u r s t a f f . IS 0 The o n g o i n g p roject that Dr. Cla rk was d o i n g was to 20 anal yze the kinds of o r g a n i s m s that w e re in this 21 p a r t i c u l a r n e a r - s h o r e area: is that r i g h t ? 22 Yes. 2 3 Was that work published somewhere? ---- -- ' ----------- 904665 -- -- ------- -------------------------- ----------------- :------ -- 5i7 1 I suspect owe of it has been. I don't know where that 2 w ou l d be, though. 3 W h a t w a s the p u r p o s e of Dr. C l a r k 's w o r k ? 4 Well, he was intere ste d pr ima ri ly in the populations cf 5 the g i a n t kelp. I d o n 't k n o w if you k n o w w h a t that is. 6 B u t i t 's t h e g i a n t s e a w e e d t h a t ' s a t t a c h e d to the o c e a n 7 floor and comes up and floats to the surface. And the 8 po pu la ti on of this seaweed was d e c r e a s i n g in the 9 sou th e rn C a l i f o r n i a area. V ar i o u s t h eo ri es as to why 10 that was h a p p e n i n g . So. he set up this s t u d y area and 11 m e a s u r e d it off w i t h g r i d s and v e r y c a r e f u l l y c o un t e d 12 all the organisms. There were several other peocla 13 i n v o l v e d . 14 And W e s t i n g h o u s e was f u n d i n g that r e s e a r c h ? 15 W e s t i n g h o u s e was' f u n d i n g it. 16 Was that r e l a t e d to any W e s t i n g h o u s e facility"' 17 No. Well, it was s o m e w h a t related. You p r o b a b l y don't 19 r e m e m b e r at t h a t d a t e a n d t i m e t h a t the U. S'. was 19 making a lot of noise about the soace race to the sea 20 with unde rw at er habitats and deep di vin g submersibles 21 and all t h a t k i n d of s t uff. W e s t i n g h o u s e w a s i n v o l v e d 22 in those things. W e st i ng ho u se had two deep diving 23 s u b m e r si bl e s . A n d they w a n t e d W e s t i n g h o u s e to nave an 904666 TI 1 ocean research laboratory to be ready to go forward 2 when the government started pouring the multi-million 3 dollar research projects into the ocean. But that time 4 n ev e r came. It was all calk. 5 0 Your w o r k was not r e a l l y p a r t of Dr. C l a r k ' s work: is 6 that riaht? 7 A Well, it was in the sense that I beoan a part of the 8 program that had not been addressed to that point. And S that was ro what extent are residues of chl orinated 10 p e s t i c i d e s i m p a c t i n o this n e a r - s h o r e reaion. 11 0 By i m p a c t i n a y o u m e a n to w h a t e x t e n t are t h e v o r e s e n t 12 in o r a a n i s m s in that n e a r - s h o r e reai o n ? 13 A First you look for p r e s e n c e . If you find v e r y h i a h 14 levels, then y o u a s s u m e impact. 15 0 What do you m e a n by i m p a c t o t h e r than h i a h l e vels? 16 A Well, as it t u r n e d out. a l i t t l e later on. for 17 i n s t a n c e , the p e l i c a n s in the s o u t h e r n C a l i f o r n i a a r e a 18 were f a il in a to r e p r o d u c e . T h e y w e r e l a y l n a softIS shelled 8gi9. When they aot around to doina 20 m e a s u r e m e n t s they d i s c o v e r e d very, v e r y hiah levels of 21 DDT in the p e l i c a n e a o s . in the fish the p e l i c a n s were 22 earina. And they were able to fit ail those pieces 23 t o g e t h e r and find out w h o was d i s e h a r o i n o it. " 1' 904667 TZ 1 So, we were kind of g o i n g that d i r e c t i o n with this 2 research. 3 Can you describe the results of the work you did in San 4 Dieao? 5 Basically I analyzed some organisms. The DDT results 6 were not very interestina. The PCB results were not 7 terribly interesting; although, some of the data 8 s u g a e s t e d to me there was a local s o urce of DDT, And I 9 p r o p o s e d to E P A a p r o j e c t to l o o k f o r t h a t s o u r c e , bur. 10 it w a s n 't f u n d e d . 11 MR. M c C R E A : Y o u s a i d D D T ? 12 THE WITNESS: DDT. 13 iContinuino) Now. from my point of v i e w the most 14 i n t e r e s t i n g thina that came out of that work was 1 15 l e a r n e d w h a t PCBs were, and I then I l e a r n e d 15 W e s t i n a h o u s e E l e c t r i c was a D r i m a r y user. A n d tnat 17 led. then, to mv w o r k on s u r v e y i n a the W e s t i n a h o u s e 18 p la n t s that were u s i n g them. 19 And you l e a r n e d w h a t PCBs were f r o m the r e s e a r c h into 20 the S w e d i s h s t u d i e s a n d Dr. R i s e b r o u g h ' s s t u d v ? 21 Yes . 22 In Decem b e r , 1970 you m o v e d to the A n n a p o l i s O cean 23 R e s e a r c h L ab o r a t o r y : is that ri g h t ? 904668 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- ----------------------------- -- ----------------------------------------- ,-------------------------------* ?1 X M a y b e J a n u a r y of *71. 2 0 Well, char's close e no u g h for g o v e r n m e n t work, as we 3 say. A n d y o u r p o s i t i o n w a s s e n i o r b i o c h e m i s t a: that 4 time? 5 A L e t 's see. W h a t e v e r t i t l e t h e y h u n o on me. I d i d g e t 6 a p r o m o t i o n about that time. yes. I s ta rt ed as staff 7 biochemist and was pr om ot ed to senior biochemist. 8 0 You oot a promotion with the move to Annapolis? 5 A Actually it was iust before the move. 10 0 I s h o w a n o t h e r t i t l e c h a n g e b e g i n n i n g in '71 t h a t 13 l a s t e d t h r o u g h M a v of '76. C a n y o u d e s c r i b e for me the * X X d i f f e r e n c e b e t w e e n y o u r p o s i t i o n f r o m '70 to '71 in 13 A n n a p o l i s a n d t h e n the p e r i o d '71 to '76? 14 A Yes. E s s e n t i a l l y as s e n i o r b i o c h e m i s t I was -- At that 15 point I h ad b e e n g i v e n the r e s p o n s i b i l i t y of 16 s u p e r v i s i n g a couple of people, but the title of 17 m a n a g e r of the g r o u p did net come unt i l a little later. 18 E s s e n t i a l l y Dr. C l a r k had b e e n m a n a g e r of a a r o u o 19 called aauaric biolog ica l sciences, so met hi na like 20 that. A n d w i t h the m o v e to San D i e g o he was -- I'm 21 s o r r y -- to A n n a p o l i s he w a s p r o m o t e d I t h i n k to 22 s o m e t h i n g c a l l e d c h i e f s c i e n t i s t or s o m e t h i n g like 23 that. And I was e l e v a t e d to the p o s i t i o n m a n a ge r of 904669 1 2 3 4 5 6 im/ s 9 10 11 12 13 14 1? 16 17 IS IS 20 21 22 23 -------------- ---------- :------------------------ -- '----------------------------:-- '-- r ----------- --------- S T aquatic biological sciences. Was your work diffrant in those two jobs? A little bit in that I think I w o u n d up havina a little bit more paperwork to do because I now had r e s p o n s i b i l i t y for some b ud c e t s and that sort of tnina that I h a d n 't before. T h er e ' s a r e f e r e n c e to a C h e s t e r Riv e r study that you d i d in 1 5 * 0 a n d '"1 t h a t y o u p a r t i c i p a t e d in. B r i e f l y what's the nature of that Chester River survey? That's a study we did. It was half funded by W e s t i n o h o u s e . h a l f f u n d e d b y the s t a t e of M a r y l a n d . It was sort of an ecolocical survey. We were stu dvinc the p r e s e n c e of a n d . - m o v e m e n t .o f .p r i m a r i l y the p e s t i c i d e chlordane in the Chester River. Do you know what the source of the chlordane in the Chester River was? Let me rechrase mv cuestin. Was a part of vcur s t u d v to d e t e r m i n e the s o u r c e of the c h l o r d a n e in the Chester River? If poss ibl e. We didn't d e t e r m i n e the s ou r c e of chlordane. One of the bia q u e s t i o n s was was there r e al l y c h l o r d a n e there and if so, ho w much. O n Exhibit 6 at the bottom of the d e s c r i p t i o n of y o u r : "" ~ 904670 --- --------- ----- -------------------- ----------- ------- :----------------- r f 1 w o r k f r o m '70 to *71 t h e r e ' a r e f e r e n c e to the g r o w i n g 2 awareness of en vironmental PCB contamination. Do you 3 4A see that? Okay. 5 Q 1 that a refer enc e to your discuss ion s with Mr. 6 B u r n h a m c o n c e r n i n g W e s t i n g h o u s e 's u s e of P C B s at its 7 plants? 8 A A c t u a l l y the r e f e r e n c e w o u l d be to -- I d o n 't know that 9 I was speci fi ca lly thinking of Mr. Burnham at that 10 point but e s s e n t i a l l y to a l e r t i n g u p p e r m a n a g e m e nt . At 11 that point I was way down at the b o t t o m of the totem 12 pole 13 O W h o m did y o u a l e r t in m a n a g e m e n t at W e s t i n g h o u s e to the 14 p o s s i b i l i t y of PCB c o n t a m i n a t i o n from the use by 15 We s t in g h o us e of PCBs? 16 A Dr. Kelly. 17 0 A n d he was p a r t of O c e a n R e s e a r c h at that t i me? 18 A I think so. U n l e s s I get my c h r o n o l o g y out of whack 19 here, yes, he was the dire cto r of Ocean Research. 20 0 W a s t h i s a c o n v e r s a t i o n t h a t y o u h a d w i t h Dr. Kelly? 21 Is chat the r e f e r e n c e ? 22 A Yes. I had a c o n v e r s a t i o n . I b e l i e v e he w r o t e a memo 23 and sent it up t h r o u g h c h a n n e l s . 904671 ----------- -- 1 How do you know he wrote a memo? 2 I believe I saw the memo. -- To 3 Who did he end the memo to? 4 If I r e m e m b e r correctly, I be li ev e he sent it to his 5 boss, D r . -Shop. 6 And who is Dr. Shop? 7 He was the head of the W e s t i n a h o u s e r e s e a r c h and ' 8 development laboratories in Pittsburgh. c After when you became man a ge r of the aquatic bi o io aic ai 10 s c i e n c e s in '71 at a b o u t t h a t t i m e d i d y o u ' b e g i n the 11 w o r k in s e a r c h i n a f o r s a m p l e s for P C B s a r o u n d the 12 v a r i o u s p l a n t s ? 13 Yes. I b e l i e v e cha t ' s w h e n we b e g a n w i t h it was in '71. 14 Is it p o s s i b l e to put an end date for that p ro j ec t? 15 I ' v e g i v e n t h a t a lo t of t h o u g h t . A n d I 'm n o t r e a l l y 16 cl e a r a b o u t the end date. It sor t of f a d e d off. T h e r e 17 w a r e some m i n o r i n v o l v e m e n t s . I d o n ' t k n o w w h e n the IS l a s t s a m p l e w as taken. W i t h m y r e s e a r c h n o t e b o o k s I IS c o u l d c e r t a i n l y w o r k it out. b u t w i t h o u t t h e m I c a n 't. 20 D i d it c o n t i n u e at l e a s t to s o m e t i m e in 1 9 7 6 ? 21 Well, if I w a s ' d o i n g an y s a m p l e s in 1976, it w a s n ' t 22 v e r y ma n y . B e c a u s e if y o u r e m e m b e r , I l e f t I b e l i e v e 23 in M a y of *76. A n d I. d o n 't r e m e m b e r a n y s a m p l e s a f t e r 904672 --- --------- ------------ *-------------------------- *--------------------------------------- - --T 1 che ones sene co me by Lew Shoaff. sediment samples. 2 T h e r e m a y h a v e b e e n o n e or t w o o t h e r s t h a t w e r e sent to 3 ate. 4 Q Other than the project you did sam pling for PCBs in 5 connection with the plants, did you do anvthina else, 6 any other projects with Ocean Research before you left 7 in '76? 8 A Yes, we did the Chester River study that you mentioned. 9 We f o l l o w e d that w i t h a c o n s i d e r a b l y laroer- p r o g r a m 10 c alled the C h e s a p e a k e Bay s ur v e y or Upo er Bay survey. 11 I 'm s o r r v . I t ' s c a l l e d the U p p e r B a y s u r v e y . 12 0 Is t hat at C h e s a p e a k e Bav? 13 A Well, t hat r e f e r s to the M a r y l a n d p o r t i o n of the 14 C h e s a p e a k e Bay. I d i d som e a n a l y s i s as part of the 15 contract with the office of water resources research. 16 Dr. P al me r had that c o ntract. 17 0 Is that, a W e s t i n g h o u s e o f f i c e ? 18 A W h a t 's t h a t ? 19 0 O ff ic e of w a t e r r e s e a r c h . 20 A No. T h a t ' s a Government office. I d o n ' t remember 21 22 0 u n d e r what division it is. Is it. a f e d e r a l Government o f f i c e ? 23 A Yes. That was a federal c o n t r a c t that Dr. Palmer aot. 904673 -------------------- --------------------------------- 5T 1 Was it the purpose of the Ocean Research Laborato ry 2 during the t i m e t h a t y o u w e r e w i t h t h e m to c o n t r a c t to 3 third p a r t i e s to do r e s e a r c h of t h i s n a t u r e ? 4 Yes, as well as do internal research. 5 How much of your work with Ocean Research Laboratory 6 would you say on a perc ent age basis was devoted to work / W e s t i n a h o u s e d i d u n d e r c o n t r a c t w i t h o t h e r s ? S It dif fe re d from year to year, Prob abl y the first year 9 I w o r k e d with We s t i n a h o u s e p r o b a b l y all of it was done 10 w i t h W e s t i n a h o u s e 's m o n e y , As s o o n as I b e o a n w o r k i n a 11 s a m p l i n g a r o u n d or the I n e r t e e n survey. I think we 12 c a l l e d it. I t h i n k at o n e p o i n t a b o u t h a l f the ti m e of 13 mv group was supported by the Inerteen survey But 14 chat d i d n ' t last Iona, And then the l a t t e r 15 years it was m o s t l y external fundino. 16 Were there o c c a s i o n s in w h i c h W e s t i n a h o u s e was 17 w o r k that was b e i n a done in c o n n e c t i o n w i t h o t h e r IS p a r t i e s ? IS In other words. I think you m e n t i o n e d the C h e st er 20 R i v e r study. I thouahr. y o u s a i d t h a t w a s f u n d e d in 21 part by Westinahouse? 22 It was. H a l f b y W e s t i n a h o u s e . h a l f by the s t a t e of 23 Maryland. 904674 1 Q T h a t was not a study, c o r r e c t a if I am w r o n g . T9-- 2 specifically connected with the Westinghouse facility, 3 was it? 4 A N o , it was n o t . 5 0 What was the Upper Bay survey? Was that connected with 6 some specific Westinghouse facility? 7 A No. 8 Q D i d W e s t i n g h o u s e f u n d a n y part, of t h a t w o r k ? 9 A I think so, but I don't r em e m b e r the p r o p o rt io n. It 10 was m o st l y ex ter nal ly f u n d e d . 11 Q W h a t ab o u t the w o r k for the o f f i c e of w a t e r r e s o u r c e s ? 12 A I b e li ev e that was c o m p l e t e l y a g o v e r n m e n t contract. 13 0 Can you think of any o t h e r c r o i e c t s oth e r than the ones 14 you lust m e n t i o n e d ? 15 A I did a small one for EPA on landfill l e a c h a t e s . Thar 16 was the r e p o r t we w e r e l o c k i n g at earlier. 17 0 W h a t was the p a p e r you p r e s e n t e d at the PCB c o n f e r e n c e 18 in Chicago, 1975? 19 A That was from the Upper Bay survey. I left out a 20 f a i r l y l a r o e o n e we d i d w h i l e we w e r e t i l l in San 21 22 23 0 Diego. That was the crown of thorns su rve y in Micronesia. Can you briefly describe what that project was about? 904675 -------- ----------1---------------------------:------:-----------!-------------------- !------------------ITTF 1 It ha d to do with the crown of thorns starfish. 2 A c a n t h a s t e r p l a n c i is its name. But b a s i c a l l y it eats 3 coral reefs. And there appeared to be a population 4 explosion of this starfish. And we on very short 5 notice did a survey of the islands out in Mic ronesia to 6 determine the populati on levels of this starfish. That 7 was done over one s u mmer. I think. 8 Any other projects you did with Ocean Research 9 L a b o r a t o r y chat, y o u c a n r e c a l l ? 10 I d i d a l i t t l e bit. of w o r k on a p r o j e c t a s s o c i a t e d v i r h 11 the V e s t i n a n o u s e d e c i i i n i z a t i o n p r o j e c t in K ey West. 12 F l o r i d a . T h a t w a s an E P A p r o j e c t . I b e l i e v e , or F W C A 13 or w h a t e v e r they c a l l e d t h e m s e l v e s at that time. 14 I think you said that the fu nd in g was r e d u c e d for vour 15 p r o j e c t s and chat's why you went to the EPA; is that 16 c o r r ec t ? 17 No . 18 whar was the r e a s o n for your l e a v i n g and g o i n a to the 19 EPA? 20 I w e n t to the E PA b e c a u s e I w a s l a i d o f f b y a p e r s o n at 21 W e s t i n c r h o u s e . A n d I h a d to l a y o f f y g r o u p the 22 p eo pl e in my group. 23 Who was it who laid you off? 904676 rot-- i 1A 20 Hi* name was Barakowskis. How do you spell last name? 3A I think it's B-a-r-a-k-o-w-s-k-i-s. I believe. I 4 think. I believe it's a Greek name. 5 0 What was his position in 1976? 6 A He was one or two down from the top at oceanic 7 division. ' 8 0 Did he oive you a reason whv vou were be ino laid off? 9 A Yes. 10 Q W a s t h a t in w r i t i n g ? 11 A 12 No. He said'-- I w o n' t forget it any time soon. h o w e v e r . He s a i d b a s i c a l l y e v e n t h o u g h he a d m i r e d us 13 greatly and we were doing verv fine work the company nc 14 lon a e r w a n t e d to be in that line of b u s i n e s s . 15 0 W h a t line of b u s i n e s s ? 16 A E n vi ro nm en ta l research. Our group had been trans 17 i n t o the o c e a n i c d i v i s i o n . A n d t h a t ' s a d e p a r t m e n t of 18 d e f e n s e c o n t r a c t i n g agencv. So. we we r e no lo n g e r a 15 p ar t of the W e s t i n a h o u s e r e s e a r c h and d e v e l o p m e n t 20 l a b o r a t o r i e s . 21 Q O c e a n r e s e a r c h was p a r t of the d e f e n s e g r o u p ; is rhat 22 23 A what vou were sayina? O n l y at t h e last. O n l y at the v e r v end. T h a t 's w h y 1 904677 *F 1 had to go to chat m a na g em en t to ask per mi ss io n to g to 2 testify. F 3 A l l r i g h t . A n d as part, of t h e s w i t c h i n t o t he d e f e n s e 4 area Westinghouse decided according to Dr. . 5 Barakowskis -- C 6 Mr. Barakowskis. 'I 7 -- . that it was no longer going to be doing ( a e n v i r o n m e n t a l - r e l a t e d work: is that right? s Yes. They dec ided they did not want our orouc in their C 10 o r g a n i z a t i o n , a n d t h e r e f o r e I w a s to l a y of f all of my 11 people. 12 And do you know if anyone, any o t h e r group, in 13 We st in gh ou se picked up that line of work after you 14 left? c 15 fc I r e a l l y d o n ' t k n o w . 16 Have you had any c o nt ac ts w i t h anyone at W e s t i n g h o u s e ( 17 since you left in 1976? 18 Yes . c 19 0 What were your most recent contacts? 20 P r o b a b l y th e l a s t p e r s o n I t a l k e d to w a s D i c k Usu r y . 21 U - s - u - r - y , at the o c e a n i c d i v i s i o n . 22 b W h e n d i d y o u c o n t a c t h i m ? 23 A I 'm n o r s u r e I c a n p u t a d a t a o n it e x a c t l y . S o m e t i m e ____________________________________ L_______ ______ 904678 I thi n k m ay b e -- S o m e t i m e this fall. I'm not sure of the exact d a t e . 0 Did you reach him? A Yes. Q Did you reach him by telephone, I assume? A Yes, I called him on the telephone. 0 What was the reason for the call? A I was curious as to what became of my laboratory n ot e bo o ks . And I asked hi m if he k ne w where thev were And. y o u know, if he d i d n ' t , w h e r e t hey m i o h t h a v e gone. I was curious to k n o w if they were s o m e w h e r e that he knew about. 0 And what did he say? A He s p e c u l a t e d as to wh e r e they m i g h t be, said he didn' know one wav or another and that he would check into i and cer back to m e . 0 Did he call you back? A No. 0 Did you ever try to reach him again? No, I didn't. Did you call a nyone else in the last y ea r at Westinghouse? A I d o n 't think so. I d o n ' t t h i n k so. I kn o w a n o t h e r 904679 --------- ------------------------------------------ -----------------T O T i 1 p e r s o n last s u m m e r I saw. H e 's r e t i r e d from 2 W e s t i n o h o u s e . bur. he w o r k e d in a t o t a l l y d i f f e r e n t 3 division and I knew him in a totally different context. 4 I did try to call John Kelly when I was in Maryland 5 last year, but I didn't reach him. I couldn't find his 6 phone number. Since l e a v in g in 1976 have you made any attempt to r ' 8 determine what uses Westin ohouse had put your work on 9 the plants, samplino around the plants? 10 A No. I didn't. 11 0 12 When was vour first contact with Mr. McCrea? Wei?., if v o u w a n t a date, I t h i n k I h a v e to r e f e r to -- 13 He c alled me on the telephone. And I b elieve one of 14 these p ieces of p a p e r says s o m e t h i n o about that. I see 15 in this one letter the 16th I sent a letter ro Mr. 16 McC r e a. a n d I refer to our telephone co nv ers ati on the 17 o t h e r day. 18 T H E W I T N E S S : Did you s p e c i f i c a l l y m e n t i o n 1 19 the date in one of your letters? I don't remember. I 20 t h o u g h t m a y b e y o u had. 21 MR. M c C R E A : I ' m n o t su r e . M a y 6. 22 THE WITNESS: Ma y 6th? Okay. 23 MR. F E L D M A N : I have that Mav 16 letter. 904680 I--- ; . -- :-------- -- ------ --- ------- --------- ----- Ttrr- MR. McCRBA: I'm referring to -- THE WITNESS: I think y o u do. MR. MeCREA: I' m r e f e r r i n g to a May 13 letter to y o u . T H E W I T N E S S : T h a t 's t he o n e I was l o o k i n g for. And in it you refer to that conversation, I think. A <C o n t i n u i n g \ Yes. I b e l i e v e t h a t t h e t e l e p h o n e c o n v e r s a t i o n r e f e r r e d to in t h i s Mav 1 3 t h l e t t e r to me from David where he says I very much apprec iat ed the o p p o r t u n i t y to talk to you by t e l ep ho ne on Mav 6th. I believe that that was my first contact with David. 0 Can I see the letter you're referring to? A Oh, o k a y . ' I think we have that as -- 0 Y o u s a i d M a y 6th.' Y o u m e a n t M a y 1 6 t h ? A No. No. I 'm s o r r y . I t ' s in t h e r e . So. it s h o u l d be -- 0 You're r e fe rri ng to the second letter in the dccur'ents that we have i d e n t i f i e d * a s E x h i b i t 2? A Yes . 0 Okav. Did Mr. M c C r e a call y o u on the p h o n e . I take it. right? A Yes. 904681 -- - ------------------------------------ ------------------- ---------- n r r r 1 Q How long did that conversation take place? 2 How long was that conversation? r 3 A O h , I e xp ect it was c o ns id er ab le . P r o b a b l y 45 mi nu tes 4 or s o . 5 0 Did Mr. McCrea indicate that he was an attorney for 6 individuals who had filed a lawsuit aaainst 7 Westinohouse? lr 8 A Y e s . he d i d . S Q Did he indicate that he had filed more than one lawsuit ( 10 against W est ino hou se? 11 A I do n ' t r e m e m b e r at that c o n v e r s a t i o n . I b e l i e v e he 12 s p e c i f i c a l l y was a sking me r e l a t i v e to the m a tt er w e' re 13 d i s c u s s i n g here, the C o n a r d case. 14 0 Did he d e s c r i b e the C o n a r d case to you? t 15 A I b e li ev e he di d at that time over the t elephone. 16 3 The May 13 letter from Mr. M c C r e a to you refers to an ( 17 a g r e e m e n t to c o n s u l t w i t h o u r o f f i c e on PCB m a r r e r s : is 18 that right? IS A The agreement with hisoffice, yes. c 20 0 Did you ever c harge Mr. M c C r e a for the time you scent 21 t al k in a to him on the phone on M ay 6th? i 22 A I ' m n o t s u r e of the a n s w e r to t h a t q u e s t i o n . Maybe. 23 3 Wh a t w o u l d you have to r e f e r to to d e t e r m i n e the a n s w e r l 904682 i-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --------------- 107 1 to that question? 2 A Somewhere in here in one of these do cuments there's a 3 l i s t of i n v o i c e s I s e n t hi m . I 'm p r e t t y s u r e in th e 17 4 hours for this bill, this Au gust 11 bill, I believe 5 there's one hour. It's not br ok en down as a line item. 6 But as I r e m e m b e r the s c r a t c h sheet, I b e l i e v e that one 7 hour was charaed for that telephone conversation. 8 0 D i d y o u i n d i c a t e to h i m in t h a t c o n v e r s a t i o n t h a t vou 9 w o u l d b i l l h i m for t h a t h o u r or 45 m i n u t e s . w h a t e v e r it 10 was? 11 A D u r i n a that c o n v e r s a t i o n , no. I d o n 't think so. 12 0 You did agree to provide con sul tat ion for Mr. HcCrea: 13 is that rioht? 14 A Yes. 15 0 And that was in c o n n e c t i o n w i t h his m a t t e r s a a ai n st 16 W e s t i n o h c u s e ; is that c orrect? 17 A Yes. 18 O J u s t so I 'p> c l e a r , y o u a g r e e d to t h a t in t h e M a v 6 t h IS teleDhone conversation: is that right? 20 A I am not 100 percent s u r e w h e t h e r J a g r e e d to- it in 21 that c o n v e r s a t i o n or w h e t h e r - - M y r e c o l l e c t i o n is that 22 we h a d a I o n a d i s c u s s i o n . A n d at the o p e n i n g I s a i d I 23 wasn' t interested. And at the end after he had 904683 ----------------------------------------------------------- :-----------;-----------------------------------------------TuT 1 expl ai ne d to me what he wa nte d 1 was kind of 2 i n t e r e s t e d . I a s k e d hire w h a t he m i g h t pav. He t o l d 3 me. I s a i d I 'd t h i n k a b o u t it. A n d I b e l i e v e I c a l l e d 4 hire b a c k w i t h i n a d a y or so a n d t o l d hire I w o u l d do it. 5 All right. You said initially you sre not interested. 6 What was it that Mr. McCrea asked you to do that you 7 were not i nt ere ste d in doing initially? 8 Well, i n i t i a l l y I h a d in rey m i n d t h a t I w a s n o t g o i n g 5 to aet involved in this anv further. 10 Okay. W ha t did he ask you to do? 11 He a s k e d me to ac t as c o n s u l t a n t to hire in the D a l e a n d 12 C o n n i e C o n a r d case. 13 To p r o v id e what kind of c o n s u l t a t i o n ? 14 W h a t was the subiect. m a t t e r ? 15 B a si ca ll y reviewing, documents, re nd eri na opinions about 16 a n al y t i c a l p ro c e d u r e s , that sort of thine. 17 Okay. W e r e s o m e of the d o c u m e n t s he a s k e d y o u to 13 r e v i e w the s a m p l i n g r e p o r t s that you had do n e in 19 conne ct io n with the We st i n a h o u s e facilities in the 20 earlv '70s? 21 I 'm p r e t t y s u r e he t o l d m e he h a d t he B l o o m i n g t o n 22 r e p o r t . I b e l i e v e t h a t ' s c o r r e c t . A n d t h a t he., w a n t e d 23 me to look at it. O t h e r than that I don't remember the 904684 ~ ----------------- -- --- -- - ---- frg- 1 ntire conversation. He had a lot to tell me about the 2 nature of the difficulties the Conards were having and 3 a n u m b e r of oth er pe op le in B l o o m i n g t o n r e l a t i v e to 4 their association with PCBs. 5 Q Has it your un de rstanding that the co ns ul tation that 6 Mr. M cC re a wanted you to provide was on the one hand to 7 r e v i e w s a m p l i n g or a n a l y t i c a l p r o c e d u r e s as well as the 8 h i s t o r y of the s a m p l i n g r eports that you had done in S Bloomington in the earlv '70s? 10 A I d o n 't k n o w t h a n we s p e c i f i c a l l y t a l k e d a b o u t the 11 h i s t o r y of all t h a t e x c e p t I u n d e r s t o o d t h a t on e of t h e 12 things I w o u l d be d o i n g w o u l d be to look at the 13 d o c u m e n t s t h a t he w a s a b l e to obtain,, review them, 14 comment on them. 15 Q Relating to the sampling done in the early '70s? 16 A Th a t was c e r t a i n l y part of it. 17 Q Was there any d i c k e r i n g on the price per hour? 1 8 A Ho. B a s i c a l l y I a s k e d h i m w h a t he w o u l d expec t to pav 19 for such consultation. And he told me. And I said, 20 21 22 Q well, t h a t ' s v e r y i n t e r e s t i n g . I'l l t h i n k a b o u t it and get back to y o u . As s o e c i f i c a l l y as y o u c a n r e c a l l w h a t ha t o l d vou 23 about the Conard case can you please relate that? 904685 1 Bas ic al ly I believe what he cold me at the time was 2 that they were down slope from the landfill, thev were 3 not an area I had sampled before, that I had sampled 4 the farm ooino the other di rection down slope from the 5 landfill and that they had had considerable problems 6 with their animal breedino orogram and had attempted to 7 get some sort of relief from the State and from 3 Westincrhouse or mavfce iust f r o m W e s t i n a h o u s e I c a n 't 9 re member exactly -- had not been successful and that he 10 was represe nt ina them in an effort to get some 11 c o m p e n s a t i o n from K e s t i n o h o u s e . 12 Did he d e s cr i b e to yon the kind of relief the Co na rds 5 :< h a d a t t e m p t e d to ge t f r o m W e s t i n a h o u s e ? 14 I don't r e c a l l at that poi n t w h e t h e r at that point the 15 letter that Mr. C o n a r d had sent to the W e s t i n a h o u s e 15 plant was s p e c i f i c a l l y d iscussed. 17 D i d he i n d i c a t e to v o u t hat the p r o b l e m s the C o n a r d s 18 wer e h a v i n a w i t h a n i m a l b r e e d i n a was r e l a t e d to PCBs 19 from the landfill? 20 He s a i d it was c e r t a i n l y his o p i n i o n t h a t it was. 21 D i d he i n d i c a t e w h e t h e r it w a s a n y o n e e l s e 's opinion- 22 that t h e r e was that c o n n e c t i o n ? 23 I don ' t remember. We talked about a lot of rhinos. I 904686 -- -- -- -- - -- -- -- :-------- --- - -- ---------- -- -- :-- :-- ----- -rrr1 d o n 't p a c i f i c a l l y r e m e m b e r t h at. 20 3 Prow what he t old you about the c i r c u m s t a n c e s of the C o n a r d s in r e l a t i o n to N e a l ' s L a n d f i l l d i d y o u draw a n y 4 co nclusions as to whe t he r the br e e d i n g problems were 5 the result of PCBs from the landfill? 6 A Sure. I told them I thought it was. same thing I told 7 W e s t i n c h o u s e as a r e s u l t of the s u r v e y of the farm down 3 slope from the l a n d f i l l w h a n I did it in the '70s. 9 0 What were the bre ed ina problems that Mr. McCrea related 10 to y o u a b o u t the C o n a r d s ' f a r m ? 11 A Well, b a s i c a l l v I t h i n k p o o r -- I'm t r y i n a to think of 12 th e riohr. t e r m fo r it. E s s e n t i a l l y l o w p r e o n a n c v r a t e . 13 I'm sure that's not how a f armer w o u l d say it. Ana 14 s e e m i n a l y high n u m b e r of a b o r t e d fetuses and m a l f o r m e d 15 fetuses and in addition to that ge ne ral ly poor health 16 of the livestock. 1" 0 18 When you say a high n u m b e r of a bo r t e d f e t u s e s . did he give you any numbers? IS A I don't recall any. 20 0 And w h e n he r e f e r r e d to m a l f o r m e d f etuses did he give 21 you any d e t a i l s a b o u t the s p e c i f i c d e f o r m i t i e s ? 22 A I c a n 't r e m e m b e r w h e t h e r at that s p e c i f i c time he 23 m e n t i o n e d a s p e c i f i c d e f o r m i t y or not. --- -- ----------- ----- ---- -------------- - -- _______ 904687 _ --------------- - -------------------------------- : ITT 1 What about the health problems? 2 Did he give you any details about that? 3 I think he m e n t ioned, you .know, pigs that wou ld just 4 lay down in the field and not eat and lose weioht or 5 j u s t n e v e r p r o s o e r l i k e y o u w o u l d e x p e c t t h e m to. 6 Did he m e n t i o n any p r o b l e m s with the h e a l t h of anv of 7 the humans living in this area around Neal's Landfill? S I can't remember whether that was part of th at' sp eci fic 9 conversation. 10 He told you that at some point: you just d o n ' t r e m e m b e r 11 w h e t h e r it was in tha t c o n v e r s a t i o n ? 12 Yes. we h a v e h a d t h a t c o n v e r s a t i o n at. o n e p o i n t or 13 a n o t h e r . 14 I want to be sure yeti're a n s w e r i n g the q u e s t i o n I ask. 15 I'm a sk in o w h e t h e r he i d e n t i f i e d i n d i v i d u a l s li vi na 15 a ro un d that landfill who had e x p e r i e n c e d heal t h 17 p r o b l e m s as a r e s u l t of b e i n a n e a r that l a n d f i l l . Is 18 that the q u e s t i o n you w e r e a n s w e r i n a ? 19 I think s o , y e s . 20 And the a ns w e r is that he did. but you just don't kno w 21 if it was d u r i n g that c o n v e r s a t i o n ? 22 Yes. T h a t 's c o r r e c t . 23 Were there any oth e r e f f e e r s that he d e s c r i b e d to you 904688 IT S 1 that the Conards had experienced from livina near 2 Neal's Landfill? 3A I c a n 't r e m e m b e r in t h a t s p e c i f i c c o n v e r s a t i o n . I 4 don't remember. Not hin g more spec ifi c jumps to my mind 5 as I am reroemberina that con v er sa t io n we had over the 6 telephone. 7 Q When you were in B l o o m i n g t o n in August, of 1983 you had 8 a lunch m e e t i n g w it h Mr. McCrea; is that right? S A Yes. 10 0 At a c o u n t r y club? 11 A Yes. 12 Q And John Fo st er and a Mr. Don Steffeck wera in 13 a t t e n d a n c e at that l u n c h e o n : is that right? 14 A Yes. 15 0 Was there anyone else there at that lunch? 16 A Yes, t h e r e w e r e s e v e r a l p e o p l e t h e r e . I ' m n o t sure 17 t h a t X c o u l d c i t e them. D a v i d p r o b a b l y can. Bur I 18 b e l i ev e -- IS 0 Mr. Currv? 20 A I think Stuart was there. I sat at t h e e n d of the 21 table ODDOsite Mr. Steffeck. And I'm n o t real g o o d 22 with names. There were some others there rh*r i c o n 'r 23 remember who thev were. 904689 TIT 1 How atny people were at that luncheon? Can you 2 remember? 3 M a y b e s e v e n c o u n t i n g m y s e l f . L e t ' s se e . I d o n 't t h i n k 4 m o r e t h a n e i g h t b e c a u s e the t a b l e w a s n 't any b i a c e r 5 than that. So. may b e seven. 6 Were either of the Conards at that luncheon? /V I d o n 't t h i n k so. 8 Have you had c o n v e r s a t i o n s with.Mr. C ur r y since Mr. 9 McCrea first contacted you? 10 I think I ta lk ed to him on the phone the other day. and 11 we pr ob a b ly had several conversat ion s when I was down 12 here in B lo o m i n g t o n . O t h e r than that I d o n ' t think so. 13 What was it that led you to chanae your mind or your 14 initial de ci si o n on co nsu lti ng for Mr. McCrea in this 15 case? 16 I don't know. Well, ba si cal ly there was the 1" o p o o r t u n i t y to e a r n s o m e m o n e y . T h e r e was a l s o the 18 o p p o r t u n i t y p e r h a p s to h e l p the C o n a r d s a bit. I'm 15 afraid 1 have a larae bit of guilt over the fact that 20 the d a t a t h a t I g e n e r a t e d b a c k in t h e '7 0 s w a s nor 21 p a s s e d to the public. M a n y times X h a v e felt I s hould 22 have c al l ed it to the a t t e n t i o n of the newspaper, the 23 EPA, w h o e v e r . But I d i d n't. So. a c o m b i n a t i o n of 904690 ------------ *------------------------------------------------------------------------------- --rrs- 1 things. 2 0 Was it just those two factors, the m o n e y and the d e s i r e 3 to help the Conards? 4 MR. YOUNG: He said more than that, 5 A The possibility occurred to me that I might be involved 6 in one fashion or another whe ther I wanted to or not. 7 I was i d e n t i f i e d as a player, if you want to use that , 8 term, because of the reports. I could be subpoena ed 9 and be ya nked into it whe the r I wa nte d to be or not. 10 That also was in the back of my mind. Well, why not co 11 w i t h the flow, a n d p e r h a D s so m e of t h i s c a n be w o r k e d 12 out at mV c o n v i e n c e so as to not i n t e r r u o t my c o l l e g e 13 t e a c h i n a s c h e d u l e . 14 0 Did you agree w i t h h i m to c o n s u l t for a c e r t a i n n u m b e r 15 of hours or any type of s ch ed ul e or just as events 16 d i c t a t e d ? 17 A I g u e s s as e v e n t s d i c t a t e d . 18 Q H o w soon a f t e r the M a y 6 t h c o n v e r s a t i o n d i d you talk to 19 Mr. M c C r e a and a g r e e to p r o v i d e c o n s u l t a t i o n in these 20 cases? 21 A Well, it was q u i t e soon. I d o n ' t r e m e m b e r the e x a c t 22 date I to l d him I w o u l d dc it. His May 13th l e t t e r to 23 me i n d i c a t e s that at that p o i n t I h a d a l r e a d y a o r e e d to 904691 IT 1 do it. 2 Do you have any i n d e p e n d e n t r e c o l l e c t i o n of that or are 3 you just ref err in g to the letter? 4 There was a -- I wrote a letter to him which ought to 5 be a ro u nd here s o m e w h e r e in one of these letters 6 a g r e e i n g to do it. S om e w h e r e in this stuff. 7 MR. F E L D M A N : L e t ' s m a r k this as E x h i b i t ' 3 8. I t h i n k t h i s is it. D o c t o r . 5 (Defendant's Deposition Exhibit 8 was marked for 10 i d e n t i f i c a t i o n . ) 11 You can look at y our c o d v of what we have just m ar ked 12 as y o u r E x h i b i t No. 8. Is t h a t a c o p y of a l e t t e r y o u 13 sent to Mr. M c C r e a on M a y 16. 1588, two p a ces ? 14 Yes. 15 Is it fair to say that the a g r e e m e n t w i t h Mr. M c C r e a 16 was for S500 per day or S75 an hour per dav. wh i c h e v e r 17 was leas? 18 P l u a e x o e n s e * . IS Plus e x o e n s e s . W h e n y o u came to B l o o m i n g t o n did Mr. 20 McCrea pay for your travel? 21 Ye s . 22 A n d you w e r e not b i l l i n o him for trav e l timer is thar right? ---!i 904692 -------- _ ----- , ;----------------------- ------------------- ----------- r t t r 1 A T h a t 's c o r r e c t . 2 0 Have those terms remained the same up to the present? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Are you b il lin o Mr. McCrea for S75 an hour for 5 attendina this deposition? 6 A I don't know the answer to that Question. We haven't 7 discussed it yet. 8 0 Up u n t i l t h i s d e p o s i t i o n h a v e y o u b i l l e d hirr- f o r S7 5 an 5 hour for all the time you've devoted to this case? 10 A Not all of it. 11 0 I saw a r e f e r e n c e s o m e w h e r e to h a l v i n a of one of the 12 bills? 13 A Yes. I d e f e r r e d some of it. 14 0 And y o u ' v e d e f e r r e d that p e n d i n g a r e c o v e r y in this 15 matter: is that right? 16 A Yes . IT 0 Are there any other portions of the fees you have 18 b i l l e d or fees that you have b i l l e d to Mr. M c C r ea that 19 will be taken out of any r e c o v e r y in this case other 20 than what you have just me nti on ed? 21 A No. 22 0 Do you i nt en d in the f u ture to d e f e r any f urther fees 23 in a n t i c i p a t i o n of r e c o v e r y in this case? 904693 1 I really haven't decided yet IT S 2 Ha* Mr. HcCrea ever pr o p o s e d that to you? 3 No. 4 I saw the re fe ren ce to the cutting of one of the bills 5 in half out of c on si d er at i on for the C o n a r d s . Apart 6 from that c o n s i de ra ti on have you billed Mr. McCrea for 7' all t he t i m e y o u h a v e s c e n e on t h i s c a s e a c c o r d i n g 't o ' 8 the f o r m u l a in E x h i b i t 8? 9 Yes . 10 Doctor, r e f e r r i n g to the i n v o i c e at the back of E x h i b i t 11 No. 2. the l a s t p a g e of E x h i b i t 2 w h i c h is dated Aucust 12 11, 1983. was any of the time b i l l e d for that in that 13 i n v o i c e a c t u a l f a c e - t o - f a c e m e e t i n g s w i t h Mr. McCrea? 14 I d o n 't thi n k so b e c a u s e I h a d not -- Wh a t was our d a r e 15 here for the meeting? Wasn't that the 13th or 16 s o m e t h i n g that I came down here? 17 I have a s t a t e m e n t d a t e d A u g u s t 13th. 13 Yes. 1 had not met Mr. M c C r e a until I came to 19 B l o o m i n g t o n . So t h a t A u g u s t 1 1 t h I b e l i e v e I prepared 20 li k e the d a v b e f o r e I w e n t d o w n . So, t h e r e h ad been no 21 face-t o- fa ce meetings. 22 T h e t i m e spent. then, w a s in r e s p o n s e to a letter Mr. 23 M c C r e a sent to you on AuausJt 3 w h i c h we have previously 904694 ------------ ;-- ---------- -- ------------- '-- ---------- ------- --------- r r r 1 m a r k e d as y o u r D e p o s i t i o n E x h i b i t No. 4; is t h a t 2 correct? 3 A Yes. 4 0 Had you had any other teleDhone conversations with Mr. 5 M c C r e a o r i o r to the A u a u s t 11 bill? 6 A I ' m n o t s u r e . I t h i n k he m a y h a v e c a l l e d me. a n d t o l d 7 me this letter was on the way. 8 MR. FELDMAN: Can vou repeat his answer to 9 that last question. 10 (The R e p o r t e r c o m p l i e d w i t h C o u n s e l ' s request a n d 11 read as directed.) 12 0 A p a r t f r o m that do you r e call any o t h e r c o n v e r s a t i o n s ? 13 A Well, let's see. We had the initial con ver sa tio n when 14 he c al le d and c h a t t e d w i t h me. T h e n I c a l l e d him back 15 to tell h i m I w o u l d do it. I thi n k the r e was a d a v 15 lacse there w h i l e I t a l k e d to mv wife and r h o u c h r a b o u t 17 it a bit. I d o n 't r e m e m b e r if t h e r e w a s p e r h s o s IS a n ot he r t el e p h o n e call. Oh. I went on v a c a t i o n d u ri n a 19 t h a t p e r i o d . T h a t ' s ricrhr.. A n d he w a s b u s y t e s t i f y i n g 20 s o m ewhere. So, there was qui t e a lapse in there when 21 we d i d n ' t have any c o m m u n i c a t i o n . 22 ( D e f en d a n t ' s D e p o s i t i o n E x h i b i t 9 was m a r ke d for 23 i d e n t i f i c a t i o n . ) 904695 -- -------- --------- --------- -------------- :------ -------- ----- n r 1 We h a v e j u s t n a r k e d as y o u r D e p o s i t i o n E x h i b i t No. 9 an 2 A ug u st 11, 1988 letter from Mr. M cC r e a f o ll ow e d bv a 3 series of a t t a c h m e n t s that w e ' v e p r e v i o u s l y discu ss ed. 4 And I w o n d e r if yo u cou l d r e f e r to y o u r copy of that 5 while I'm looking at the exhibit. 6 Okay. Th ere's the Au gus t 11 letter. 7 The a tt ac hment s are, I guess, refe rre d to in the first 8 p a r a g r a p h of the A u g u s t 11 letter. 9 Okay. Got it. 10 The A u gu s t ll l etter has five a t t ac h m e n t s . Can you 11 v e r i f y that for ma? 12 Yes. I count fiva. 13 Is it fair ro say that the A u gust ll bill was sent for 14 pr e pa r i n g the letter and the attachments that we iust 15 m a r k e d as y o u r D e p o s i t i o n E x h i b i t No. 9? 16 k Yes. 17 3 And those a t t a c h m e n t s inc l u d e the h i s t o r y of the ! 18 W e s t i n g h o u s e PCB survey; is that right? 19 k Y e s . 20 3 Is it fair to c h a r a c t e r i z e that d o c u m e n t as v o u r 21 s u m m a r y t h a t yo u p r e p a r e d on A u g u s t 6th, 1968 22 d i s c u ss i n g the backgr oun d of the sampling program that 23 y o u started in 1 9 7 0 and 1971 for Westinghouse includinrr --------------- ----- --- ------------- -- 904696 1 the Bloomington survey? -rrr 2 Yes 30 4 A p pr o x i m a t e l y how many hours did you devote to drafting that historv of the W e s t i n a h o u s e PCB u r v e y a t t a c h e d to 5 the letter of A u g u s t 11. if yo u can give me an 6 estimate? 7 A W e l l . I d o n 't know. I h a d it w r i t t e n d o w n on a s c r a t c h 8 sheet. This whole effort from the cover letter to the 9 end pl u s the o r i g i n a l t e l e p h o n e call came to the 17 10 h o u r s . I r e a l l y d o n ' t kn o w . A p o r t i o n of the 17 11 hours . 12 3 Okay. A n d in the n e x t a t t a c h m e n t w h i c h is the d a t e . o f 13 the m e e t in g with Wes t in oh o us e CEO. you prepared that on 14 A u g u s t 9, 1 9 8 8 as a d e s c r i p t i o n of y o u r m e e t i n g w i t h 15 Mr. Bu rnham sometime in app ro x im at e ly 1970, late 1970. 16 earlv *71? 17 Yes . 18 And that was also i n c l u d e d in the A u g u s t 11 bill: is 19 that right? 20 Yes. 904697 21 And the th i r d a t t a c h m e n t r e l a t i n g to the m e t h o d used 22 for m e a s urin g PCBs in the samples from the Westinahouse 23 survey, is this a d e s c r i p t i o n of the m e t h o d for ----- -- -------------------------------- ------ --- ------------------- :------- ~ m 1 analvzino samples collected for the Bloomington plant 2 aurvev beck in 1971? 3 Essential ly for all of the surveys around the 4 Westinghouse plants. 5 Including the Bloomington plant? 6 Including the Bloomington plant, yes. 7 And the next insert discussina who knew about the PCB 8 - s u r v e y data, that was done on A u g u s t 11. 1988 and was 9 your u n d e r s t a n d i n g as to who at Westinahouse would have 10 made deci sio ns for releasing, among other things, the 11 B l o o m i n a t o n purvey: is that riaht? 12 Yes. 13 And that was also parr of the bill thar you senr to Mr. 14 M c C r e a A u g u s t 11. 1988? 15 Yes . 16 A n d t h e n t h e r e is an A u g u s t 9. 1 9 8 8 f i v e - p a o e d o c u m e n t 17 r e l a t i n g to y o u r c o n t a c t s w i t h the l a w f i r m 18 r e p r e s e n t i n g W a s t i h g h o u s e w h i c h d i s c u s s e s , as I read 19 it, c o n v e r s a t i o n s you had w i t h i n d i v i d u a l s from the 20 Weil. Oo tshal & Manoes firm in New York; is that right. 21 Yes * 904698 d.4L A n d y o u r t i m e p r e p a r i n g t h a t d o c u m e n t w a s a l s o / 23 r e i m b u r s e d t h r o u g h the A u g u s t 11 bill: is that r i a n t ? -- n-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- r r r 1 A Yes. 2 Q Did you understand the nature of your relarionshio with 3 Mr. M c C r e a to be such that y o u w e r e w o r k i n g for hi as 4 an attorney or directly for the Conards? 5 A Well, I understand that the checks come from the 6 Conards. Well, some of them have been ce rs ona lly 7 signed by the C o n a r d s , some of them have come to me 8 f r o m Mr. M c C r e a . I w a s n 't s u r e t h e r e wa s a d i f f e r e n c e . 9 If t h e r e is, I'm not s u r e w h a t the d i f f e r e n c e is, I 10 guess is what I'm saying. 11 Q Who s ig ne d the check for the r e t a i n e r of a t h o u s a n d 12 dollars" 13 A I think it came from Valley View Farms, but I can't 14 swear to that. T h a t ' s my best r e c o l l e c t i o n . 15 0 V a l l e y V i e w Farms b e i n g the name for the C o n a r d s ' farm? 16 A Yes. T h a t w o u l d have b e e n s i g n e d by one of the 17 C o n a r d s . 13 Q Is it vour u n d e r s t a n d i n g that all of the w o r k that 19 y o u 've d o n e for Mr. M c C r e a t h a t ' s r e f l e c t e d in the 20 inv oices a ttac he d to E xhibit 2 was done in c o nn a c r i o n 21 22 A with the Conard case? T h a t 's m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g , yes. 904699 23 0 And that e v e n t u a l l y y o u w o u l d p r o v i d e t e s t i m o n y at ------------------------------------ ----------- -- ------- ---ITT 1 trial in the Conard cate: is that right? 2 A If n e ce ss ar y - yes. 3 On all the p at te rs reflected, amo ng o t h e r t h i n a s . in 4 y o u r A u g u s t 11 l e t t e r to Hr. H c C r e a a n d its 5 a tt ac h m e n t s ; is that rioht? 6 If n ec essary, yes. 7 (A r e c e s s wa s t a k e n d u r i n g w h i c h t i m e D e f e n d a n t ' s 8 D e po si ti on Exhibit 10 was marked for identification.. $ Dr. Munson, off the record you indicated that you had 10 r e m e m b e r e d the n a m e of the man you had t a l k e d to 11 c o n c e r n i n g y o u r t e s t i m o n y for E P A w h i l e y o u w e r e s t i l l 12 w i t h Oce a n i c ; is that rioht? 13 A Yes . 14 What was his name? 15 His f i r s t n a m e I b e l i e v e is W i l l i a m . H i s l a s t n a m e is 16 M a c o v s k y . T h a t ' s M - a - c - o - v - s - k , I b e l i e v e , y. bu t I ' m 17 not sure. M a c o v s k y . 18 Again, w he r e was he l o c a t e d ? IS He was the -- I don 't k now w h e t h e r his title was 20 m a n a g e r or d i r e c t o r or what, but" he was the too p e r s o n 21 at the o c e a n i c d i v i s i o n s i t e in A n n a p o l i s , the 22 W e s t i n a h o u s e o c e a n i c d i v i s i o n site. He w o u l d be Mr. 23 B a r a k o w s k i s 's bo s s , the f e l l o w w h o l a i d me off. I 904700 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----------------------------------T 2 -5 1 Q You consider the te stimony you ere giving today to be . 2 part and parcel o the retention agreement you have 3 w i t h Mr. M c Crea; is that r i g h t ? 4 A Yes. 5 0 Is it y ou r u n d e r s t a n d i n g as a part of that a g re e me nt 6 you were not pe rmitted to talk off the record with 7 individuals from Westinghouse or representino 8 Westinghouse concernino the matters you would testify 9 to in this case? 10 MR. YOU N G : P a r d o n me. Y o u r Q u e s t i o n is 11 not a p r o p e r q u e s t i o n . Y o u s h o u l d a m e n d ir so as to 12 s a y w h e t h e r or not he is i n s t r u c t e d t.o t a l k -- Of 13 course he's talking with you right now out of the 14 p r e s e nc e of a tt o r n e y s for the p laintiff. 15 MR. F E L D M A N : Fair, e n o u a h . 16 0 With that m o d i f i c a t i o n , can you a n s w e r my q u e st i o n ? 17 A Yes. I u n d e r s t a n d that to be the case. 13 0 How do y o u u n d e r s t a n d that to be the case? 19 Who i n f o r m e d yo u of that? 20 MR. YOUNG: W e ' l l obie c t . J u s t a minute-. 21 W e ' l l ob-iect to that. It is a g a i n s t the laws of ethics 22 in I n di a na for an a t t o r n e y of an o p p o s i n a par ty to 23 c ont act a w it n e s s hir ed by or w h o has been no ti ce d. to 904701 ----- --------------------------------------------- -----------------------------------------:---- :------ITT 1 the other party and talk to them outside the presence 2 of counsel for the parties. 3 0 Is that your u n d e r s t a n d i n o . Dr. Munson? 4 MR. YOUNG: Thar is the fact. And I 5 o b j e c t . t o the q u e s t i o n b e c a u s e it a s s u m e s t h a t it is 6 proper when you know it isn't. 7 MR. FELDMAN: Wall, I don't think it 8 assumes one way or the other. 9 MR. Y O U N G : W e l l , y o u ' r e s u p p o s e d to know 10 wh a t the l a w is. Jan. Y o u k n o w that. / 12 MR. F E L D M A N : I t h i n k I am e n t i t l e d to ask 12 the Q u e stion. 13 Can you repeat the q ue st io n? 904702 14 MR. YOUNG: Well, it's an i m p r o p er 15 Q u e s t i o n b e c a u s e it a s k s w h e t h e r he u n d e r s t a n d s he is IS n o t to t a l k to you. Y o u r q u e s t i o n o m i t s the f a c t it 17 isn't p r o p e r for you to aptoroach h i m and try to talk tc 18 h i m o u t s i d e the p r e s e n c e of c o u n s e l for the other sice. 19 MR. FELDMAN: A couple of points. First 20 of all, I d o n ' t have to agree to y o u r characteriza'ier. 21 of what the law is. You made y o u r point. Let me make 22 m y p o i n t . A n d s e c o n d l y , I 'm a s k i n o h i m for w h a t his 23 u n d e r s t a n d i n a is. A n d as a w i t n e s s in t h i s case I 'm 1 titled to oo into those things. 127 ' 2 MR. YOUNG: I don't chink so because I 3 t h i n k y o u k n o w s i n c e y o u do k n o w t h e l e w t h a t i t 's 4 i m p r o p e r for any l awyer on the o t h e r side to a pp r o a c h a 5 witness, an expert, w i t n e s s . hired by the opposite side 6 and try to talk to him outside the presence of counsel. 7 MR. FELDMAN: Could you repeat my 8 Question, please. 5 MR. YOUNG: Note my ob je cti on to that. 10 And ask y o u r I n d i a n a l a w y e r here. Joe, if that i s n ' t 'll the fact. He k n o w s it is. 12 MR. FELDMAN: Could vou now repeat my 13 aue s t i o n . 14 MR. YOUNG: T h a t ' s one of the thinas that 15 i rr it at es me about a q u e s t i o n like that when you kn ow 16 it's improper. 17 MR. F E L D M A N : Howard. I c a n 't h e l p your 18 i r r i t a t i o n . I'd like to oet a l o n g w i t h t h e d e p o s i t i o n . IS MR. YOUNG: Mv o b j e c t i o n is -- 20 MR. FELDMAN: It c e r t a i n l y is on the 21 record. I've seen the cou r t r e p o r t e r ta k e it down. 22 MR. YOUNG: V e r y well. Now, what's the 23 q u e s t i on ? 904703 -- ---------------------;---------- ;--------- -- ----- ------ :----- --- I T ? 1 (The R e p o r t e r c o m p l i e d w i t h C o u n s e l 's r e a u e s t a n d 2 read as directed.) 3 MR. YOUNG: Is that a ques tio n or 4 statement?' 5 MR. FELDMAN: That's the Question. 6 W h a t is y o u r answer to t hat Question. D o c t o r ? 7 MR. Y O U N G : I d o n 't t h i n k it's a Q u e s t i o n . 8 MR. CARNEY: I t h i n k the ne x t q u e s t i o n is 9 where did that understanding come from. 10 MR. YOUNG: Let's get it on the record. 11 0 Let me ask a n o t h e r q u e s t i o n . Y o u i n d i c a t e d that you 12 u n d e r s t o o d that you were not p e r m i t t e d to talk off the 13 record with Wes t in ah c us e attorneys outside the presence 14 of a t t o r n e y s for the Cona r d s : is that c o r r e c t ? 15 Is t h a t v o u r t e s t i m o n y ? 16 Yes. I w o u l d u n d e r s t a n d that, yes. 17 0 And what I asked you was did you get that u n d e r s t a n d i n g 18 from s o m e t h i n g that Mr. M cC r e a told you in one of vour 19 meetings with him? 20 MR. Y O U N G : Now, t h a t 's a p r o p e r Q u e s t i o n . 21 D o n 't r a i s e y o u r e y e b r o w s l i k e th a t . Y o u r o t h e r 22 Q u e s t i o n a s s u m e d t h a t he s h o u l d k n o w w h a t the law is 23 w h e n y o u ' r e the one that s h o u l d k n o w w h a t the law is. 904704 ---- 1 --------- :------------------ ;------- ;---------------- 12 9-- MR. FELDMAN: I've asked the same Question 2 twice now. 3 MR. YOUNG: Well, it just kind of aets me 4 going, wakes me up. 5 0 You can answer the Question. S A Okay. I'm w o r k i n g on it. I b el i e v e that I had that 7 un de rstanding before I talked with Mr. McCrea. Okay. 8 I 've d o n e this a f e w t i m e s b e f o r e . So. I'd sav -- S W e l l . I d o n 't k n o w w h e t h e r to s a y ye s or no to y o u r 10 question. Mr. McCrea and I have disc uss ed that 11 subiecr.. 12 0 And what did Mr. M c C r e a tell you about that subj e c t? 13 A He said it's not proper for the Wes tin oho use attcrnev 14 to c on t ac t me to talk about this case or my i n v o l v e m e n t ' 15 in this case when they know that I have agreed to work 15 w i t h him. T h a t 's m v u n d e r s t a n d i n g . 17 0 Okay. D i d he say it was i m p r o p e r for you to talk w i t h 18 W e s t i n g h o u s e a t t o r n e y s c o n c e r n i n g yo u r w o r k at 19 W e s t i n o h o u s e in the '70s? 20 A I'm n o t s u r e it was solit. t h a t fine. 904705 21 Q Was that your u n d e r s t a n d i n o of w h a t he was teliina veu? 22 A I d o n 't k n o w . I t h i n k m v u n d e r s t a n d i n g is this -- A n d 23 m a y b e it's not c o r r e c t -- is t h a t w h e n it is kn o w n to ; '-------------- ---- -------------- ------------ :------ 1--- --- T T u 1 che Westinah ou se itcornays that I an working for Mr. 2 M c C r e a a n d ch e C o n a r d s on t h i s c a s e i t 's n o t p r o p e r f o r 3 then to contact me and talk to me about natters 4 relatina to this case. 5 MR. Y O U N G : I will r e a f f i r m that as b e i n a 6 the true state of the law in Indiana. 7 Including -- 3 MR. YOUNG: Inc luding history. 9 Does that include a discussion with Westinahouse 10 a t t o r n e y s r e l a t i n g to y o u r w o r k w i t h W e s t i n a h o u s e 1.1 d u r i n a the '70s? ( 12 I don't know the answer to that. 13 MR. YOUNG: Well, we will i n s t r u c t the 14 witness. 15 iConrinuir.a) If you c a l l e d me up and ask e d me about 1.S that. I 'd s a y I c a n ' t t a l k to v o u , I ' l l h a v e to t a l k to 17 D a v i d a b o u t it. T h a t ' s w h a t I w o u l d do n o t k n c v i n a 18 w h e t h e r that's p r o p e r or not. IS If I were to ask you t o d a y to talk w i t h me i n f o r m a l l y 20 o ff the r e c o r d o u t s i d e th e p r e s e n c e of Mr. M c C r e a 21 r e l a t i n g to t he w o r k y o u d i d at W e s t i n g h o u s e . w h a t 22 would your response be? 904706 23 MR. YOUNG: His r e s p o n s e w o u l d be that he -=-- -- -- -------- ---------------- --- -- *-------------- :----- ----------n r r 1 would follow our instruction*. 2 A M y r e s p o n s e w o u l d be I d o n 't k n o w if i t ' s p r o p e r f o r -ipa 3 to do that. I t h i n k y o u s h o u l d talk, to Mr. M c C r e a and 4 ask him. 5 0 And wo uld you po ac co rdi no to w ha te v er Mr. McCrea 6 indicated on that question? 7 A Probably. 8 MR. FEL D M A N : W h a t ' s the answer.. Mr. 9 McCrea? 10 MP.. M c C R E A : Y o u c a n t a l k to h i m a n y t i m e 11 yo u w a n t as I o n a a I' m there. 12 M R . FELDMAN: What about outside your 13 presence? 14 MR. Mc C R E A : A b s o l u t e l y net. 15 MR. YOUNG : Hiohly improper. I'll say 16 that aoain. 17 MR. McCREA: Any time you w a n t to talk to 18 Dr. M u n s o n y o u 're w e l c o m e to. IS Q Mr. Mc Crea has indicated accordino to him you should 20 n o t t a l k to us o u t s i d e of h i s p r e s e n c e . W o u l d y o u 21 f o l lo w that i n s t r u c t i o n or w o u l d y o u talk to 22 W e s t i n o h o u s e attorney*! o u t s i d e of his prese nc e about 23 y o u r w o r k at W e s t i n o h o u s e ? 904707 1 A I would follow his -- T77 2 M R . Y O U N G : M r . McCrea has stated that's 3 t h e l a w a n d y o u k n o w i t 's th e law. A n d it w o u l d be 4 very im proper for you to do that. 5 MR. F E L D M A N : I d o n 't k n o w i t 's the law. 6 MR. YOUNG: We can show you very easily. 7 We can report you. for instance, to the Disci pl in ar y 8 C o m m i s s i o n . Not. t h a t w e ' r e coiner t o . b u r w e ' r e ius>' 9 trying to get things straight around here. 10 MR. FELDMAN: I'm asking a hy po t he ti c al 11 g u e s t i o n . 12 (Continuing) Whe re I sit here the answer to that 13 g u e s t i o n w o u l d be I w o u l d speak to you to the extent to 14 sav y o u n e e d to talk to Mr. M c C r e a to set uo a time 15 when we can sit down tooether and talk with Mr. McCrea 16 p r e s e n t . T h a t ' s rrv u n d e r s t a n d i n g of w h a t ' s p r o c e r . 17 MR. Y O U N G : N o w v o u f e l l o w s h a v e l e a r n e d a 1 8-, l i t t l e l a w " t o d a y . 19 ( D ef en d a n t ' s D e p o s i t i o n E x h i b i t 11 was m ar ke d for 20 i d e n t i f i c a t i o n . ) 21 Do y o u h a v e the l e t t e r s t h a t y o u s e n t to Mr. M c C r e a 22 d a t e d N o v e m b e r 6 t h a n d 7th. 1 9 8 8 ? 23 Y e s . ______ 904708 -------------- ;------------------------------------- --------------- ;------- --------------------------- -- ------------------- t t 1 Q I have m ar ked is Exhibit 10 copies of two letters. The 2 f i r s t o n a is a t w o - p a a e l a t t e r d a t e d N o v e m b e r 6, a n d 3 the s ec o nd one is a t h r e e - p a g e lettar d a t ed N o v e m b e r 7 . 4 Can you refer to the November 6 lettar that's the first 5 page of E x h i b i t 10. 6 A Okay. 7 (Defendant's De po s i t i o n Exhibit 12 was m ar ke d for 8 identification.) 90 Is the N o v e m b e r 3 l a t t e r that y o u r e f e r r e d to on the 10 11 12 A first part of your letter dated November 6 the letter we have iust m a r k e d as E x h i b i t 12 for your d e n o s i t i o n ? Yes. I b e li e v e so. 13 O Is v o u r t i m e d e v o t e d to the N o v e m b e r 6 l e t t e r reflected 14 in an invoice? 15 A It s ho u ld be. I think I m e n t i o n e d an invoice. Well. 16 i t 's o n e of the i n v o i c e s we h a v e h e r e s o m e w h e r e . Mavbe 17 i t's t his one. Okay. T h a t lo o k s like t his one dated 18 N o v e m b e r 6 in E x h i b i t 2. I b e l i e v e t h a t w o u l d be the 19 time I spent p r e p a r i n g the N o v e m b e r 6 document. 20 0 R e f e r r i n a n o w to the N o v e m b e r 7, 1 9 8 8 l a t t e r that's 21 p a r t of E x h i b i t 10, t h a t l e t t e r , as I r e a d it. concerns 22 y o u r o p i n i o n a b o u t the a p p r o p r i a t e l e v e l of PGBs in 23 C o n a r d s ' b r a n c h and the e x t e n t to w h i c h one can m o n i t o r 904709 ---- ---------------- -- -- :----:---------- -- ------:----- ;-------- t i t 1 or ample PCBs down to various levels: is that right? 2 Yes . 3 To y ou r k n o w l e d g e is there a n y t h i n g p r i o r to N o v e m b e r 7 4 of 1988 in which you provide Mr. McCraa with expert 5 o p i n i o n s about e n v i r o n m e n t a l m a t t e r s such as those 6 contained in the November 7 letter? 7 I'm not s u r e w h a t y o u m e a n b y e x p e r t o p i n i o n s . I w o u l d ' S e.sume some of the e a r l i e r d o c u m e n t s I w r o t e and sent 9 to him were expert opinions on environmental matters. 10 Is the i n f o r m a t i o n you p r o v i d e d to Mr. M c C r e a in the 11 N o v e m b e r 7 l etter a t t a c h e d to Exh i b i t 10 the firsr .time 12 y o u a p p l i e d y o u r e x p e r t i s e in m o n i t o r i n g and 13 d e t e r m i n i n g the a p p r o p r i a t e level of PCBs in wat er to a 14 c u r r en t fact s i t u a t i o n such as the C o n a r d s ' b r a n c h 15 issue? 16 If I remember, we d i s c u s s e d that s ubject to a c e r ra in 17 e x t e n t on A u g u s t 1 3 t h in that o t h e r d o c u m e n t . IS I see. Let's i d e n t i f y that d o c u m e n t for the record. 19 ( De fe n d a n t ' s D e p o s i t i o n Exhibit. 13. 14 and 15 w ere 20 marked for identification.) 21 D o c t o r . I b e l i e v e y o u r e f e r r e d to a n A u g u s t 13 m e e t i n g 22 w i t h Mr. M c C r e a . A n d I ' m s h o w i n g y o u a d o c u m e n t we 23 have nust ma rke d Exhibit 13. Can you identify that for 904710 ---------- .-- ------------- -- -------------------------------------------- --- ----- :-- rrs-- 1 2A e. plaase? This is a t r a n s c r i p t of a c o n v e r s a t i o n I had w i t h Mr. 3 McCrea in his office on the 13th whi c h was recorded by 4 this notary public, I guess. Terri Knudson. 50 6 Did you meet with M r . McCrea before the court reporter began taking down your testimony or your words? 7 A I don't remember the answer to that question, I mean 8 certainly I had encountered him. This was the mornina 9 after we a rr i v e d in town. Okay. C o m m e n c i n g at 11:00 10 a.m. Yes. I had had breakfast with him that morning. 11 I ' m sure. 12 0 Did he tell you whv he was h a v i n g a c o u r t r e p o r t e r take 13 d o w n his Q u e s t i o n s and vo u r a n s w e r s in this form* 14 A If I r e m e m b e r wh a t he said, b a s i c a l l y he w a n t e d to be 15 free to ask Questions and consider the answers witho ut 16 havincr to take notes. 17 0 I n o w w a n t to sh o w you two d o c u m e n t s that we have 18 m a r k e d E x h i b i t s 14 and 15. 14 is a co p y of the o u t l i n e 19 of t e s t i m o n y of p l a i n t i f f s ' w i t n e s s e s fil e d by the 20 C o n a r d s in t h i s c a s e or s e r v e d b y th e C o n a r d s in t his 21 c a s e on the 2 9 t h of A u g u s t of t h i s y e a r . A n d E x h i b i t 22 15 is a copy of a d oc u m e n t ca ll ed P l a i n t i f f s ' Answers to .Westinahouse Electric Corporat io n's Supplemental 904711 1 2 3 4 5 mtm' 8 5 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 IS 20 21 22 23 -- -- -- -- --------- -- :-- - -- --------- - - rw Interrogatories Concerning Expert Testimony served on S e p t e m b e r 19, 1988 in this case. A n d I'll a s k y o u to r e f e r to p a g e 5 of E x h i b i t 14 and page 2 of Exhibit 15 and tell me if you have reviewed those statements prior to this deposition today. You're asking have I seen this page before or have David and I talked about these matters? Let's start with the first guestion. Have you seen E x hi bit 14 b e f o r e today? I d o n 't b e l i e v e so. And did you ever see the s p e c i f i c s e c t i o n in E x h ib i t 14 u n d e r y o u r n a m e T. 0. M u n s o n t h a t a p p e a r s on p a c e s 5 and 6 before today? I d o n 't t h i n k so. Had you ever seen Exhibit 15 before today? I d o n ' t think sc. Doctor, would, vou look at the s e c t i o n u n d e r yo u r nare in E x h i b i t 14 p a g e 5 an d 6. H a v e v o u h a d a c h a n c e tc read through that? I've just g l a n c e d at it. 904712 W h y d o n ' t y o u r e a d it c a r e f u l l y , if y o u w o u l d . A nd I 'r g o i n g to ask if there is a n y t h i n g in there that vou -----------------i----------------------------------- ;-----------;-----------------------------------------------------------t V T i ither disagree with or did not anticipate testifying 2 to in this c a s e . 3 A Okay. 4 0 My oue st io n to you is: Ha vin g rev ie w ed the section 5 d e s c r i b i n g y o u r t e s t i m o n y in E x h i b i t 14 . is there 6 anything in that descrip ti on that you either disagree 7 with or did not anticipate testi fy in g to in this case? 8 A There's nothing there that I disagree with. I have 9 hopes not to testify at all in this case. But that may 10 be ill founded. 11 0 Well, ap a r t from your hop e s not to t e s t i f y in this 12 case, if y o u d o t e s t i f y in t h i s c a s e d i d y o u a n t i c i p a t e 13 t e s t i f y i n g to each of the items list e d und e r vour name 14 in E x h i b i t 14? 15 A I c o n s i d e r e d it a p o s s i b i l i t y . 16 0 W o u l d vou. do'- the s a m e f o r me. if y o u w o u l d , for E x h i b i t 17 15 on o a o e s 2 a n d 3. \ 18 (A r e c e s s w a s t a k e n . t 904713 19 Q The q u e s t i o n was: Have you r e v i e w e d the r e n d i t i o n of 20 y o u r t e s t i m o n y in E x h i b i t 15 on p a g e s 2 an d 3? 21 A Y e s , I h a v e . 22 Q And is there a n y t h i n g in there that you e i t h e r d i s a g r ee 23 w i t h or d i d not a n t i c i p a t e t e s t i f y i n g to. a s s u m i n g you -------------------" ---- --- :----------------------------- TTS1 have co testify in this ease? 2 Well, there is n o t h i n g the r e that I d i s a o r e e with, 3 n o t h i n g the r e that I am u n w i l l i n g to t e s t i f y to. 4 MR. FELDMAN: That's my question. Okay. 5 It's now a cou pl e m in u t e s be fo re 5:00. He'll have to 6 continue the d e po s it io n to an agreeable date. 7 (A d i s c u s s i o n w a s h e l d off the r e c o r d . ) 8 MR. F E L D M A N : W h y d o n 't we save s i a n a t u r e 9 until the e n d . 10 11 (The d e o o s i t i c n wa s a d i o u r n e d at 5 : 0 0 o 'c l o c k d .r . 12 to be r e s u m e d at a future time to be a a r e e d up o n bv the 13 p a r t i e s .) 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 904714 TT? 1 STATE OF INDIANA ) > SS: 2 COUNTY OF MARION ) 3 I, B e v e r l y S. E v a n s , a N o t a r y P u b l i c in an d for 4 th e C o u n t y of M a r i o n . S t a t e o f I n d i a n a at l a r g e . do hereby 5 certify that THOMAS OREN MUNSON, the deponent herein, was 6 by me first duly sworn to tell the truth the whole truth 7 and nothing but the truth in the afo rem en tio ne d matter; - 8 That the foregoing deposition was taken on behalf S of the Defe nd an t at the law offices of Baker & Daniels. 10 I n d i a n a N a t i o n a l B a n k T o w e r . 1 5 t h F l o o r , I n d i a n a p o l i s .. 11 M a r i o n C o u n t y , I n d i a n a , on the 3 0 t h d a y o f N o v e m b e r . 158S. 12 c o m m e n c i n g at the h o u r of 5 : 3 0 o ' c l o c k a . m . , p u r s u a n t to 13 the F e d e r a l Rul e s of Civ i l P r o c e d u r e ? 14 T h a t s a i d d e p o s i t i o n w a s t a k e n d o w n i n .S t e n o g r a p h 15 notes and a ft e rw a r d s r e d u c e d to t y p e w r i t i n g u n d e r my IS d i r ec t i o n , and that the t y p e w r i t t e n t r a n s c r i p t is a true 17 r e c o r d of the t e s t i m o n y g i v e n by the said d e p o n e n t : 18 That the p ar ti es were r e p r e s e n t e d bv thei r counsel 19 as a f o r e m e nt i on e d . 20 I d o f u r t h e r c e r t i f y t h a t I am a d i s i n t e r e s t e d 21 p e r s o n in t h i s c a u s e of a c t i o n ; t h a t I an n o t a - r e l a t i v e or 22 a t t o r n e y of any of the parti e s , or o t h e r w i s e i n t e r e s t e d in 23 the event of this cause of action, and am not in the employ 904715 " -------------------------- ------;--------------------------- -------------------------- - ; --------------ITT" 1 f the a t to rne ys for any of the parties. 2 IN WITNESS WHEREOF. I have hereunto set my hand and 3 ffixed my notarial seal this 5th day of December- 1568. 4 5 6 B E V E R L Y S. E V A N S . N o t a r y P u b l i c 7 S y commission expires: e p t e m b e r 25, 1550. 9 ount y of R es id en c e : 10 a n c o c k . 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 15 20 21 22 23 904716 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF INDIANA Jm I N D I A N A F O L I S D I V I S I O N 3 4 DALE CONAP.D and C O N N I E CONAP.D > `) 5 Plaintiffs. ) ) 6 -vs- } CASE NO. irC4-lff*-C 7 WESTINGHOUSE ELECTRIC ) CORPORATION. Ou ) \ Defendant. ) C* i *1 1 11 11 J3 Th*. c o n t i n u e d d e p o s i t i o n u p o n or a l e x a m i n a t i o n ot 14 T H O M A S OP.EN M U N S O N , a w i t n e s s p r o d u c e d and s w o r n b e f o r e i>-r b e v e r l y S. E v a n s , a N o t a r y P u b l i c in an d for the C o u n t y of 15 Marion. S t a t e of I n d i a n a , t a k e n on b e h a l f cf the D e f e n d a n t at the law o f f i c e s of B a k e r A D a n i e l s . I n d i a n a N a t i o n a l If bank Tower, 15th F l o o r , I n d i a n a p o l i s . M a r i o n County. Indiana, on the l " th of D e c e m b e r , 1983. c o m m e n c i n u at th<r 1" hour of 1 1 : 0 0 a.m.. p u r s u a n t to the F e d e r a l R u l e s of C i vil Procedure with w r i t t e n Notice as to time and place . 18 19 20 21 J O H N E. C O N N O R A A S S O C I A T E S . INC. *-> 18 6 0 O N E A M E R I C A N S Q U A R E INDIANAPOLIS. IN 46282 *'*1 v (31.7 6 3 2 - 5 5 3 3 904717 m 1 A P P E A P. A N C E S 'S Ae 3 THE PLAINTIFFS: 4 5 6 7 3 c OP. T H E D E F E N D A N T : 10 11 12 13 14 .1-5 16 D a v i d S. M c C r a a McCP.EA & M c C R E A 119 . W a l n u t S t r a e t P. O. Bo;. 1 3 1 0 B l o o m i n g t o n . IN 47 402 .a nd YOUNG & YOUNG H o w a r d S. Young.. Jr . 128 N . Delaware I n d i a n a p o l i s . IN 46204 Jan Feldman PHELAN, POPE & JOHN, LTD. 180 N. W a c k e r Dt i v e . -Suita 5 0 v Chicago, IL 60606 and Eric Ordway WEIL, GOTSHAL & MANGEO 767 Fifth Avenue N e w Yor>:, NY 1 0 1 5 3 and J o s e p h B. C a r n e y BAF.EP. & D A N I E L : 810 Fletcher Trust building Indianapolis. IN 4 6204 - 2 4 5 4 17- IS 19 T N D E X O F E 7. A M I N A T I O N 20 21 IP.ECT e : A M I N A T I O N ( C o n t i n u e d : Q u e s t i o n s by Mi . J a n F e l d m a n 22 Pay: 14 : 23 904718 14 3 1 1 N D E X O P E X H IB I T S 4* Fay*; 3 Defendant's Deposition Exhibit No.: 4 18 - 12/12/88 letter to M c Crea from M u n s o n plus i n v o i c e for d e p o ...... . ............... . . -- .. 166 5 1" - A r t i c l e t i t l e d S k i n L e s i o n s in A n i m a l s and H u m a n s : A B r i e f O v e r v i e w .................. . 18" 6 13 - 6 / 1 1 / 7 6 l e t t e r to S e g l e m f r o m M u n s o n . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 7 v 15 - D o c um e nt M unson sent W e s t i n g h o u s e patent 7 c o m m i t t e e for e v a l u a t i o n .................. . 171 20 - W e st i ng h ou s e inven t i o n d i s c l o s u r e filled out by 8 Mans on ..................... ...... . . . ..... 17 1 21 - 1 0 / 1 7 / 7 5 l e t t e r f ro m M u n s o n to C h e m i c a l & c E n g i n e e r i n g News. 3. pg . a r t i c l e 4 1 0 / 2 4 / 7 5 l e t t e r to M u n s o n from Chemical & E n g i n e e r i n g News ...... 171 i Copy of p o r t i o n s of W e s t i n g h o u s e e n g i n e e r i n g n o t e b o o k s .. .. . . . ... .. .. . .... . . ... . . .... ... . . .. . l'^ il 22 - 5 7 1 8 / 7 1 'P r e l i m i n a r y P r o p o s a l to the E PA by Muns on ...... . ........ ... ....... . . 135 i: 24 - Preliminary Report ci Inerteen Environmental Survey at Bloomington Distribution Apparatus ii Fiant prepared by Munson ...................... 211 14 15 ie i" 10 15 20 21 4* -V W 23 904719 -- ;-------- :--------- -- -- -- ------------- ------- : " ---- I T T - 1 H 0 M A S 0 R E N M u N S O H , having been first duly sworn to tell the truth, the who l e truth and 3 nothing but the truth, relating to said matter, 4 was e xamined and testified as follows: 5 6 RECT EXAMINATION (Continued), 1 QUESTIONS' BY MR. JAN FELDMAN: 8 MR. FELDHAN: Let the record reflect this 5 is the c o n t i n u e d d e p o s i t i o n of T h o m a s 0. M u n s o n . 10 Dr. Munson, since your last d e p o s i t i o n have you done 11 any a d d i t i o n a l w o r k r e l a t i n g to t h i s m a t t e r ? 12 1 h a ven't done any billable work. I did look at a 13 document on the way over here that David put under my 14 nose h a v i n g to do w i t h d e f o r m e d feet in c a t t l e who ate 15 p ol y b r o m i n a t e d biphenyls. 16 MR. FELDMAN: Do you have that, David; 1" W h i l e h e ' s l o o k i n g foi that . o t h e r t h a n a b r i e f loo): ar 13 that docum e n t that you just described, have you done 19 any other work r e l a t i n g to this case? 20 1 haven't p r o d u c e d any docum e n t s or anything. 21 THE WITNESS: David, does that other thing 22 fa l l u n d e r th a t q u e s t i o n ? 23 MR. McCREA: It might. 904720 --------------- ---------- ------------------- ------------ ------------ ------------------ :-------------- ---------- ---------------Ttfr 2A {Continuing) I did run across a c o uple of documents last night in a file which you may or may not be 3 int e re st e d in. I gave them to David this morning. 4 Although, those are my only copies of those documents. 5 I was l o o k i n g for s o m e t h i n g e l s e in a f i l e of El'A 6 material and had this particular one -- 1 didn't even 7 k n o w it w a s in t here. But yo u ca n see i t 's the last oV p a r a g r a p h t h a t r e l a t e s to w h a t w e 're t a l k i n g about. 5 MP..' McCP.EA: La s t p a r a g r a p h on the first 10 11 11 Q page, Jan. THE WITNESS; This is y o u r o n l y copy? Yes. 13 A Yes. We n e e d a copy. 14 Q Y o u 'vfe j u s t h a n d e d me a l e t t e r d a t e d J u n e 11, 1 9 " c. 15 It's two pages to Christopher Seglem, S-e-g-l-e-jv ie r e g i o n a l counsel, I take it, for the EFA? 17 A Yes . 1C Q A n d also an a r t i c l e by R e n a t e K i m b r o u g h c a l l e d Skin 19 Lesions in Animals and Humans: An overview, 19S4 Cold 20 Spring H a r b o r Laboratory. I d o n 't k n o w e x a c t l y where 21 this is p u b l i s h e d . ** mm O t h e r t h a n t h o s e two d o c u m e n t s -- A n d w e ' l l have 23 them m a r k e d as e x h i b i t s -- ha v e you found any 904721 --------- " ------ ;-- :----------- -- -------------- :----- :-- -- t t t 1 additional nacerais relating to this matter? 2 Yes. In that same file folder there were these two 3 docum e n t s that had to do with an i n v e n t i o n d i s c l o s u r e 4 form that I filled out at one poi n t in 1972 d e s c r i b i n g 5 a potential PCB effluent sampling system. I had 6 t o t a l l y f o r g o t t e n a b o u t t h i s . The. t h i n g that a t t r a c t e d my i n t e r e s t a b o u t t h e s e two is on o ne of t h e m it a mentions the serial number cf the record bock where 9 that was written. 1 O We w e r e h a v i n g s o m e d i s c u s s i o n at on e p o i n t a b out 11 r e c o r d b o o k s . A n d I c o u l d n ' t co m e up w i t h any 11 i d e n t i f y i n g thin g s a b o u t the r e c o r d bo c k s other than 13 they were bl a c k and of a c e r t a i n size. Well, that 14 p a r t i c u l a r one chat 1 was u s i n g in 1972 the s e r i a l 15 number of it is c a l l e d out on one of those l i n e s 16 s o m e w h e r e . 17 A n d t h e n t h e r e is a n o t h e r d o c u m e n t . L o o k s s l i g h t l y It' d i f f e r e n t . a n y w a y ? 19 tes. I h a v e n ' t r e a l l y s t u d i e d the two of t h o s e to k n o w 20 why t h e y ' r e d i f f e r e n t . One of t hem I t h i n k has some 21 pages h av i n g to do with the rules about i n v e n t i o n 22 d i s c l o s u r e s . 23 MR. F E L D M A N : L e t 's go off the record- a 904722 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------:-------1+7- 1 second. -v dm iA d i s c u s s i o n wa s h e l d off the r e c o r d . } 3 Q Anything else? 4 A No, n o t r e l a t i n g to this case. Y ou d i d isk me at one 5 p o i n t a b o u t s o m e of the t h i n g s I h a d d o n e w i t h EI'A. 6 There was another document, which 1 don't know why you 7 w o u l d p a r t i c u l a r l y want, but it h a d s o m e s p e c i f i c s S about one of the EPA cases in it. A n d I thought D a v i d * 9 w o u l d be i n t e r e s t e d in it. I d o n 't k n o w that it 10 relates to this at all. 11 Q Let me ask y o u a l i t t l e b a c k g r o u n d i n f o r m a t i o n about 12 the d o c u m e n t s you have p r o d u c e d for us today. At some 13 point after your last d e p o s i t i o n did you go back and 14 l ock t h r o u g h y o u r m a t e r i a l s at your o f f i c e or at your 15 home to d e t e r m i n e whether you had other m a t e r i al s that 16 m i g h t be r e l e v a n t to this c a s e or that w e r e c a l l e d ici 17 in the s u b p o e n a t h a t 's E x h i b i t No. 1? IS A I 'll te l l y o u e x a c t l y w h a t took p l a c e . At s o m e p o i n t I 19 think when we were h a ving our d e p o s i t i o n before 1 20 mentioned my counterpart at General Electric, the fact 21 that 1 had met s o m e b o d y over the ye a r s -- I'm not sure <* dm w h i c h y e a r -- w h o w a s d o i n g for G e n e r a l E l e c t r i c what I 23 had done for W e s t i n g h o u s e , s a m p l i n g around sites. 904723 ----------- -------------------------------------------- T T T 1 Dav i d asked me if I r e m e m b e r e d his name. Maybe 4 y o u a s k e d me. I d o n ' t r e m e m b e r . I d i d n ' t r e m e m b e r his 3 n a m e at all. David, for w h a t e v e r r e a s o n he has. Is 4 i n t e r e s t e d in his name. 1 h a v e no r e c o l l e c t i o n of the 5 p e r s o n ' s n a m e at all. I o n l y me t h i m once, I think.. 6 How does that relate to these materials? 7 Well, I'm about to get to that. You were going through 8 my resume materials which I think are the materials <f p e r h a p s that I g a v e E r i c at on e p o i n t . T h e r e was an 10 item in there t a l k i n g about c o n s u l t i n g I did fci the 11 s t a t e of N e w Y o r k h a v i n g to do w i t h the P C 6 s in th-.. 12 H u d s o n . A n d in one of my filer I h a v e a l e t t e r fr o m 13 the p e o p l e I w o r k e d w i t h in N ew York. A n d my g u e s s was 14 that th e y m i g h t k n o w the n a m e of that GE p e r s o n . 15 So, I was l o o k i n g for that l e t t e r to g i v e to 16 D a v i d . A n d 1 d i d n ' t f i n d it. I d o n ' t k n o w w h a i e it 1" is. But in so d o i n g I w e n t to a f o l d e r that war ETA 18 m aterial that really s h o u l d n ' t have had a n y t h i n g in it 19 that h a d a n y t h i n g to do w i t h w h a t w e 're d o i n g here, a n d 20 t h a t 's w h e r e t h o s e d o c u m e n t s th a t we j u s t s p o k e about 21 were. 22 Other than the Skin Lesions in Animals and Humans which 23 Mr. McCrea showed you this morning, has he shown you 904724 ---- ;------------------------------------------------------------- --- ---------------- :--------------any ocher materials at all since your last deposition? A No. Q Have you had any additional correspondence with him? 4 A 1 sent to him the bill for my services for the last 5 deposition, for the first part of this deposition, and 6 I think we spoke on the phone once, maybe twice, 7 Q What was the charge on the bill for your last 8 deposition? 9 A I don't remember the b o t t o m line. I think you have it 10 r i g h t here, d o n 't you? $ 1 , 0 9 2 . 0 ? , 11 Q Y o u just h a n d e d ' m e a D e c e m b e r 12, 1988 l e t t e r w i t h an 12 i n v o i c e for a $ 1 , 0 9 2 . 0 9 ; is that c o r rect, D o c t o r ? 12 A Yes. 14 Q At y o u r l a s t d e p o s i t i o n y o u w e r e h e r e for the e n t i r e lb day. D i d y o u l o s e any m o n e y f r o m o t h e r e m p l o y m e n t 16 b e c a u s e of your p r e s e n c e at that d e p o s i t i o n ? 17 A No. 18 Q Is the sa m e t h i n g true w i t h r e s p e c t to the other w o r k 19 you have dev o t e d to this case, that it has not resulted 20 in any lost income from other sources? 21 A **2i4n* Yes. That's true. Then the fees that you charge in this case are not 2 3 meant to compensate for any loss from other sources? 904725 ----------------;----------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- iDv 1 Ho, they ere not. 2 D o c t o r , j u s t to s a v e time s i n c e w e 're on a f a i r l y short 3 schedule today, I will nark these at our first 4 opportunity and we can introduce then into evidence. 5 But 1 won't discuss them right now, given that time 6 cons traint. 7 Okay. ' 8 Are you c u r r e n t l y be i n g r e t a i n e d by M r . M c C r e a in 5 connection with other lawsuits? 10 Yes. 11 What are those o t h e r l a w s u i t s ? 12 1 don't think I can r e c i t e the names of them. D a v i d 13 can p r o b a b l y tell you. 14 Can you b r i e f l y d e s c r i b e the other work you have done 15 in connection with those other lawsuits that isn't 16 included in the work you have done in this case? 17 I haven't done a n y thing yet. I've just a c c e p t ed a IS r e t a i n e r . . I I I i! i i 19 W h e n y o u s a y y o u ' v e a c c e p t e d a r e t a i n e r , do you mean 20 you have accepted a cash retainer? 21 Yes. -">4m For e a c h of the o t h e r l a w s u i t s ? 23 T h e r e t a i n e i c a m e to *te as a s t i p u l a i o n that it was a ! 904726 1 n Q retainer to retain ay services for the other lawsuits. How much was that retainer? 3 A A thousand dollars, I think. 4 Q And that t h o u s a n d d o l l a r s is not the s ame t h o u s a n d 5 dollars that's r e f l e c t e d in a letter from Mr. M cCrea to 6 y o u that w e 've i n t r o d u c e d as an e x h i b i t in this case; 7 is that coritict? 8 A That is correct. 9 Q Have you done c o n s u l t i n g work for anyone else in your 10 career, e xc l u d i n g the EFA, W e s t i n g h o u s e end the FBI? 11 V e s 12 Who else did you work for? 13 When I was w o r k i n g for W e s t i n g h o u s e I did some 14 c o n s u l t i n g work for E n c h a n t e r Incorporated, my f a t h e r 's 15 c o r p o r a t i o n . I di d two small jo b s after' 1 w e n t to w o r k l for EFA. I c o m p l e t e d one job for the state of M a r y l a n d 17 D e p a r t m e n t of N a t u r a l R e s o u r c e s , I t h i n k it was, and IS the other job I b e l i e v e was thro u g h W e s t i n g h o u s e . But 15 I did b o t h of those as a c o n s u l t a n t . 20 Is that it? 21 I ' m t r y i n g to t hink. T h a t 's a lot of y e a r s . T h o s e aie 22, the o n e s that c o m e to m i nd. 23 Do you think there were othe r s and you just can't 904727 --------------------------------- --------------------------- ---------- ---------------------------------------- i r r 1 remember them or do you think there likely were not *> dm others ? 3 Likely there were not others. 4 1 may have asked you this before, and if so, I 5 apologize. Have you ever been in a deposition before? 6 Yes.' m 7 Now, I 'm d i s t i n g u i s h i n g t h a t f r o m the t e s t i m o n y y o u 8 gave with the EPA. Are you doing the same? 9 Yes . 10 D e s c r i b e the other d e p o s i t i o n s that you have 11 p a r t i c i p a t e d in. 12 HP.. M c C R E A : Jar, I t h i n k that q u e s t i o n 13 was as k e d and a n s wered. As I recall, it was the 14 criminal ch arges b r o u g h t agai n s t an indiv i d u a l . 15 I 'm not s u r e e x a c t l y . T h e d e p o s i t i o n s I g a v e w e r e 16 g i v e n while 1 was w o r k i n g for EPA. 17 L e t 's e x c l u d e that. O t h e r t h a n t e s t i f y i n g in c a s e s for 18 the EPA have you been in any other d e p o s i t i o n s ? 19 Hell, there was the d e p o s i t i o n that I gave to EIA while 20 I was e m p l o y e d at W e s t i n g h o u s e , the o n e t h a t you have 21 as a d o c u m e n t . P.idgway H a l l took my d e p o s i t i o n . Other 22 than that, I d o n 't recall any. 23 In any of the prior t e s t i m o n y that you have given have 904728 ---- --------- -- -- :------ -- -- -- ---------- ------- :----------------:--- - t * T T 1 y o u b e e n q u a l i f i e d as an e x p e r t in c o n n e c t i o n w i t h that 2 testimony 7 3 A Yes, I have. 4 Q Is that in each i nstance in whi c h y o u h a v e given 5 testimony? 6 A Well, each time I testi f i e d for EPA I was testifying as 7 an expert witness. Part of my job d e s c r i p t i o n was that ' 8 I was a regional expert. 9 Q What was the n a t u r e of the e x p e r t i s e as to what you 10 w e r e t e s t i f y i n g for t he EPA? 11 A B a s i c a l l y a n a l y t i c a l m e t h o d s for the v a r i o u s c h e m i c a l 12 p o l l u t a n t s that EPA was a n a l y z i n g for. 13 Q Have you ever been q u a l i f i e d as an-expert in a n y t h i n g 14 o t h e r t h a n w h a t yo u h a v e j u s t d e s c r i b e d ? 15 A 1 don't t h i n k so.. 10 By the way. are you and M r . M c C r e a jointly w r i t i n g a 17 book : 18 Not yet. 19 Have y o u d i s c u s s e d with Mr. M c C r e a the p o s s i b i l i t y of 20 writing a book together? 21 It s t a r t e d as a joke. It may b e c o m e r eal one day. But 22 as of yet the first line has not been written. 23 What's the thought about w r i t i n g a book? 904729 1 4"mV 3 4 5 6 7 ;e 5 10 11 12 13 14 lb 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 ----- -- ---- ------- ---- ----- :-- ---- -- ; ;--- -- -- -- -- " T 5 T What kind of book are you going to write together? Well, p o ss i bl y c hr o n i c l i n g the e x p e r i e n c e s in B l o o m i n g t o n h a v i n g to do w i t h PCBs. HP.. McCP.EA: It w i l l be a n e i g h t or ten page book. That would be a book authored by both you and M r . McCrea; is that right? 1 don't know. We haven't discussed that aspect. You h a ven't c o n t a c t e d any p u b l i s h e r s about it yet? No. I have thought of a title, however. S i l e n c e on the Beanblosscm. Y o u r e f e r r e d at s o m e p o i n t to the d r a m a of the tCB situation in Bloomington. re you going to write the book as a d r a m a t i c piece? 1 was thin k i n g more as a tragedy. Doctor, this is p r o b a b l y in your resume. I j u s t v a u to be sure from your own mouth. Have you taken any courses in human medicine? No. Have you taken any course work in toxicology? No. How about epidemiology? No. 904730 -- - -- ------------------- -------- ----------- :-- ------ :------ >-----:---- tir*r 1 0 Any course work in veterinary medicine? * A Not specifically vet erinary medicine, no. 3 Q You say not specifically veterinary medicine. Have you 4 taken courses generally in veterinary medicine? 5 A No. I was thi n k i n g of d e v e l o p m e n t a l em b r y o l o g y and 6 s omething of that nature. 1 do have a bachelor degree 7 in z o o l o g y , as y o u m a y r e m e m b e r . 8 Q How would you define zoology? 9 A The study of animals. The animal kingdom, 1 s h o u l d 10 s a y . 11 Q H a v e y o u t a k e n a n y p o s t g r a d u a t e c o u r s e s in z o o l o g y > 12 A N o . 13 0 Have you p u b l i s h e d a n y t h i n g in any of the f o l lo w i n g 14 areas, in h u m a n medicine, toxicology, e p i d e m i o l o g y or 15 v e t e r i n a r y m e d i c i n e ? 16 A No. 17 Q Have you taken any courses or done any other kind of 18 study in the te c h n i q u e s of c l e a n i n g up l a n d f i l l s ? 19 A No. 20 Q H a v e y o u t a k e n any c o u r s e w o r k or h a d any o t h e r kind of 21 t r a i n i n g in the t r a n s p o r t of c h e m i c a l s in soils? 4V * m- MR. YOUNG: What do you mean transport? 23 Q Do you understand what I mean by transport? 904731 T5T 1 I t h i n k so. I ' n o t e n t i r e l y s u r e W h a t y o u w e a n by 2 transport in soils. A c o n s i d e r a b l e amount of my 3 r e s e a r c h h a d to do w i t h s a m p l i n g s o i l a n d w a t e r foi 4 chemicals. 5 Okay. Let me redo the question. Have you taken any 6 course work or done any other kind of study in the 7 m e c ha n is m s of the trans p o r t of chemicals in soils? 8 I'm sure I must have read whatever articles weie 9 available when I was acti.vely doing this some 15 years 10 ago. 11 2 O t h e r t h a n r e v i e w i n g s o m e l i t e r a t u r e h a v e y o u t a k e n any 12 course work or any formal studies in that area? 13 M o . 14 Is it fa i r to sa y that y o u h a v e n o t t a k e n any c o u r s e 15 work or done any formal studies in geology? 16 A T h a t 's t r u e . 17 H a v e y o u t a k e n any f o r m a l c o u r s e w o r k or h a d any f o r m a l 18 t r a i n i n g of any k i n d in the h e a l t h e f f e c t s of the 19 a c c u m u l at i on of various chemicals on animals? 20 T he q u e s t i o n is c o u r s e w o r k or f o r m a l c o u r s e work as in 21 coll e g e c l asses? 22 C o l l e g e clas s e s or p o s t g r a d u a t e c l a s s e s or se m i n a r s or 23 a n y t h i n g of that nature. 904732 ------------ :---------------- ----------------- ;----------------- ;-------- 1A I'm sure I've li s t e n e d to a seminar or two. There were dt c e r t a i n l y p a p e r s p r e s e n t e d at t h a t m e e t i n g in C h i c a g o 3 about toxic e ffects of va r i o u s c h e m i c a l s inc l u d i n g 4 PCBs. 5 Q All right. Have you published anything in that area 6 yourself? 7 A On effects, yes. . 8 Q A n d I 'm n o t n o w r e f e r r i n g to a c c u m u l a t i o n . I ' m 5 referring to health effects that may or may not result 10 from the a c c u m u l a t i o n of c h e m i c a l s in wild l i f e . 11 A T h e r e was on e paper that I c o - a u t h o r e d j o i n t l y w i t h Joe 12 F o r n e s , F - o - r -n-e-s, h a v i n g to do with the eff e c t of 13 PCB dosages on shell formation in oysters. 14 Q Is that r e f l e c t e d in your CV? 15 A Y es . 16 Q I'm s h o w i n g you your E x h i b i t No. 5 w h i c h is your Cv. 17 C an y ou p o i n t that out for me? 13 A No. 3 u n d e r r e s e a r c h r e p o r t s ac s c i e n t i f i c m e e t i n g s . 19 0 The title is s c a n n i n g m i c r o s c o p y o b s e r v a t i o n s of oyster 20 shell g ro wth during pest ic id e toxicity experime nt a ti on ? 21 A Yes. 22 Q W hat was the n a t u r e of you r c o n t r i b u t i o n to that talk? 23 A I was m a n a g i n g the g r o u p at W e s t i n g h o u s e that Joe 904733 T57T 1 Pornes w or k e d in. As part of the study I b e lieve that 2 was d ur i n g the C h e s t e r River stu d y for the state of 3 Maryland I along with several other people in ay group 4 had ran a series of experiments exposing clams and 5 oysters to chlordane and to PCBs. 6 1 a n a l y z e d the tissues. Joe got the -- We d i d n 't 7 own a s c a n n i n g e l e c t r o n m i c r o s c o p e . Joe a r r a n g e d to 8 get the SEM p ictures taken of the shells. 5 Is it fair to say that your c o n t r i b u t i o n to that s t u d y 10 was to p e r f o r m the m i c r o s c o p y , the actual a n a l y t i c a l 11 w o r k in the l a b o r a t o r y ? 1- Not the m i c r o s c o p y . I p e r f o r m e d the a n a l y t i c a l w o r k 13 s h o w i n g the uptake of the PCBs and p e s t i c i d e s by the 14 soft t i s s u e s of the o y s t e r s an d also w ith Joe r e v i e w e d l b the data on the shell thinning. 16 When you say r e v i e w e d the data you me a n the da t a that 17 y o u p r o d u c e d or the l i t e r a t u r e that e x i s t e d b e f o r e 18 then? 19 No. No. T h e p i c t u r e s of the s h e l l s f r o m the o y s t e r s 20 from our experimental tanks. 21 Whac is the b a c k g r o u n d of Dr. P o r n e s ? 4*mVw I t 's Mr. F o r n e s . He has a m a s t e r d e g r e e in m a r i n e 23 biology, 1 believe. 904734 -------- ------------ --- ------ -- ------- --------- -- --- --- - 1 5-> 1 Q Is it fair to say that he d e t e r m i n e d for p u r p o s e s of 2 that study whether there was any effect on the shells 3 or soft tissues of the organisms that you had looked 4 at? 5 A He. T h e e f f e c t s y o u d i d n 't n e e d to be an e x p e r t to see 6 them. T h e s h e l l s w e r e t h i n n e r . A n y o n e l o o k i n g at the 7 pictures could see the shells were thinner and the 8 crystal structure was slightly different. 9 Other than that study in 1973 have you done any other 1C* w o r k on th e e f f e c t s on w i l d l i f e of the a c c u m u l a t i o n of 11 c h e m i c a l s ; 12 A No. , 13 Q Have you taken any course wo r k at any time on the 14 e f f e c t s of cleanups of c h e m i c a l s on the e n v i r o n m e n t ? 15 A No. 16 A n d is it fair to sa y y o u h a v e n 't p u b l i s h e d a n y t h i n g in 17 that a r e a e i t h e r ? 18 A Y e s , t h a t 's fair to s a y . IS 0 20 I take it you d o n ' t h o l d y o u r s e l f out as an exp e r t in toxicology: i9 chat correct? 21 A T h a t is t r u e . 22 y And is the same true for e p i d e m i o l o g y and v e t e r i n a i y 23 m e d ic i n e ? ------ !-- ;----------------------------------------- -- -- 904735 That is true. lev A n d a l s o hurean m e d i c i n e ? 3 True. 4 You don't hold yourself out as an expert in geological 5 formations? 6 True. 7 You don't hold you r s e l f out as an e x pert in cl e a n u p 8 t e c h n i q u e s in l a n d f i l l s ? is that r i g h t ? $ I would say I have some knowledge in that area. One 10 could c er t a i n l y find p e o p l e mo r e expert than myself. 11 W o u l d you c h a r a c t e r i z e your k n o w l e d g e as that of an 12 expert in that area? 13 Well, I don't know. The scale of exp e r t runs from 14 s l i g h t l y e x p e r t to m o s t e x p e r t in the w o r l d . I ' m in 15 there s o m e w h e r e . By the n a t u r e of the w o r k that 1 16 spent 10 years doing 1 did gain some expertise in that 17 area. l e To your knowledge, are there any certifications for 19 i n d i v i d u a l s w ho do c l e a n u p w o r k that q u a l i f i e s them as 20 experts in that area? 21 I w o u l d g u e s s t h e r e are. I h a v e k i n d of b e e n out of 22 th a t f i e l d for a b o u t e i g h t y e a r s now. M y g u e s s i9 by 23 now either EPA or the states must be licen s i n g people 904736 1 to do this w o r k . -t-e * Q You've never had any such certification, have you? 3 A No. 4 Q Is it fair to say that in the last eight years you have 5 not kept up with advances in cleanup techniques for 6 landfills? 7 I c e r t a i n l y h a v e not r e a d the b u l k of the l i t e r a t u r e if 8 Ci o there is such literature. Is it fair to say that you do not h o l d y o u r s e l f ouc as 10 an expert in the area of the health effects on w i l d l i f e 11 of the a c c u m u l a t i o n of c h e m i c a l s ? 12 I h a v e some k n o w l e d g e of that from my re a d i n g , but 1 13 d o n 't h o l d m y s e l f out to be an e x p e r t . 14 W o u l d it be fair to say that the area that y ou do h o l d 15 y o u r s e l f out as an e x p e r t in is a n a l y t i c a l m e t h o d s tor 16 chemical pollutants? 17 T h a t c e r t a i n l y is my a r e a of s t r e n g t h , yes. IS A n d are t h e r e a ny o t h e r areas in w h i c h y o u w o u l d IS c h a r ac te r iz e your k n o w l e d g e as that of an expert? 20 Well, I t h i n k th a t c e r t a i n l y at one p o i n t in 1 S*" 5> 1 was 21 not a s k e d to go to the m e e t i n g in C h i c a g o b e c a u s e of my 22 a n a l y t i c a l e x p e r t i s e . 1 was a s k e d to p r e s e n t oui 23 r e s e a r c h on the t r a n s p o r t and fate of PCBs in the 904737 ------- --------------------------------- 1 ' : I'52 ' 1 e s t u a r i n e and e c o s y s t e m . So, I M o u l d say at least at 2 that point in tine I Mas co n s i d e r e d one of the national 3 experts on m o v e m e n t of PCBs in the environment . 4 Now. w hether that e x p e r t i s e has flrown stale over 5 the last few years, I don't know. It still seems like 6 the same rules apply as to the t r a n s p o r t and fate of 7 PCBs in the environment. 8 When you say environment I Understand you to mean water S e n v i r o n m e n t . Is that a c c u r a t e ? 10 Well, some of the -- The bulk of that study was done in 11 the w a t e r e n v i r o n m e n t . But my r e s e a r c h into the 12 o c c u r r e n c e of PCBs in the e n v i r o n m e n t w a s n ' t just 13 limited to water, no. N o . 14 What about the subject matter of the paper you gave at 15 the 1975 conference? 16 Was that limited to the fate of PCBs in water? 1" B a s i c a l l y all we h a d w e r e air s a m p l e s c o l l e c t e d on 18 land. We had r a i n f a l l s a m p l e s c o l l e c t e d on land. We 19 had then sediments samples suspended in the Mater and 20 b o t t o m s a m p l e s on the b o t t o m of the e s t u a r y . So. mote 21 than just water. * 4m. D o c t o r , I u n d e r s t o o d the n a t u r e of the w o r k y o u d i d in 23 that p e r i o d to be one of a t t e m p t i n g to l ocate w h ere 904738 ------------------ --------- --------- ------------------- ------ 16-3-- 1 there are d e p osits of PCBs in the envir o n m e n t as 2 o ppo sed to anal y z i n g the m e c h a n i s m s for transport of 3 PCBs in any particular medium. 4 Is that a m i s u n d e r s t a n d i n g or ia that a fair way 5 to c h ar ac t er i z e your work at that time? 6 A T ha t ' s a slight m i s u n d e r s t a n d i n g . If I rememb e r the 7 buzz words that we wrote in the report, we were . .$ a t t e m p t i n g to i d e n t i f y the r a t e s , r o u t e s , s o u r c e s an d 5 sinks of c h l o r i n a t e d h y d r o c a r b o n s in the C h e s a p e a k e 10 11 Q 12 Bay. All right. How does what you just said differ from what I said? 13 A Well, rates and routes has to do with transport. And 14 sinks has to do with fates. So, I thought your 15 q u e st i on was mainly aimed toward sources. We were 16 doing more than source. 17 Q Let me r e p h r a s e my q u e s t i o n . I u n d e r s t a n d the n a t u r e 18 of your w o r k t a k i n g s a m p l e s and d o i n g a n a l y t i c a l tests 19 of those samples to dete rm in e where PCBs occur in the 20 e n v i r o n m e n t no t n e c e s s a r i l y w h e r e t h e y c o m e f r o m but 21 w h e r e t h e y e n d up an d i n c l u d i n g in t h a t w h e r e they o c c u r over ti m e w h i c h 1 g u e s s w o u l d ta k e a c c o u n t of the 23 rates. 904739 ITT 1 Is that an i n c o r r e c t c h a r a c t e r i z a t i o n of that 2 work? 3 There was much ore to this study. It was a m u l t i 4 disciplinary study involving marine geologists, 5 biologists, hydrologists. 6 I' m just t r y i n g to get at w.hat y o u did. 7 k Yes. But what I did was only a piece of the study. 8 And 3 was i n v o l v e d in the i n t e g r a t i o n of the who l e to 2 come up w i t h w h a t e v e r c o n c l u s i o n s we came, up with. So, 1.0 we w e r e d e a l i n g w i t h w a t e r f l o w s i n t o the system, 11 aerial fa l l o u t into the system, m o v e m e n t of the water 12 and suspended sediments within the system with tides 13 and w a t e r fl o w s and that sort of thing. 14 So, i t 's m u c h m o r e c o m p l e x t h a n just t a k i n g a set 15 of samples and then l o o k i n g at them and t r y i n g to 16 decide whi c h are the highest and which are the lowest. 17 Y o u s a i d that it was p o s s i b l e , a n y w a y , th a t y o u r 18 e x p e r t i s e in that a r e a in the last 13 y ears, I gues-r', 19 or eight years since you left the EPA might have become 20 stale. H a v e you kept up w i t h the l i t e r a t u r e since 1982 21 w h e n y o u l e f t the E P A in t h a t a r e a ? 22 Not e x t e n s i v e l y . I r e a d C h e m i c a l an d E n g i n e e r i n g News 23 each week. And when a signi f i c a n t d e v e l o p m e n t takes 904740 -- ------------------------ --------:---------- -- -------------- : :-- -----------:----------- -- ----------------------- -- ------------------------- 1 place h av i n g to do wi t h PCBs g e n e r a l l y it a p p e a r s in - 4m there. But X have not kept up with the scientific 3 l it erature in that area. 4 Q W hat o t h e r j o u r n a l s do you r o u t i n e l y r e v i e w say in the 5 1 a 9 1 th r e e or four y e a r s ? 6 A I haven't read nearly as much as I should. I've been 7 too busy since I s t a r t e d teaching. But Journa l of 8 Chromatographic Science, Analytical Chemistry. I 9 mentioned Chemical and Engineering News. That's 10 probably -- There are several others that I see from 11 time to time. 12 Q I take it y o u i n c l u d e d in that list j o u r n a l s that y o u 13 r o u t i n e l y r e v i e w in c o n n e c t i o n w i t h your c o u r s e w o r k at 14 St. Clo u d ; is that c o r r e c t ? 15 A No. It has to do w i t h a n a l y t i c a l c h e m i s t r y m o s t l y . 16 Q So, there are other j o u r n a l s that you r e v i e w that you 17 d i d n 't list a m i n u t e ago b e c a u s e they d o n ' t 18 s p e c i f i c a l l y r e l a t e to this case? 19 I w an t e d you to give me a list of e v e r y t h i n g you 20 21 A review. Well, I 'm p r e s e n t l y t e a c h i n g f r e s h m a n c h e m i s t r y . One 22 does not review journals, to teach f r eshman chemistry. 23 Q So, the lis t y o u gave me is an e x h a u s t i v e one? 904741 16 6 1 Veil, p r o b a b l y the b est s t a t e m e n t I can g i v e you is 2 that the journals which I read when I get a chance to 3 read them primarily have to do with analytical 4 methodology. I should have added the Crime Laboratory 5 Digest to the list and the Journal of F o r e n s i c 6 Sciences. 7 (A r e c e s s wa s t a k e n d u r i n g w h i c h t i m e D e f e n d a n t ' s 8 D e p o s i t i o n E x h i b i t s 16 t h r o u g h 21 w e r e m a r k e d for 9 i d e n t i f i c a t i o n .) 10 Doctor, s howing you what the court reporter has just 11 m a r k e d as y o u r E x h i b i t No. 16 w h i c h is a l e t t e r f r o m 12 you to Mr. M c C r e a d a t e d D e c e m b e r 12, 1988 w i t h an 13 i n v o i c e a t t a c h e d to it, is that the l e t t e r and i n v o i c e 14 that you d i s c u s s e d e a r l i e r that you had f o r w a r d e d to 15 Mr. M cC re a for payment by Phelan, Pope A John? 16 Yes. it is. 17 An d as I u n d e r s t a n d it, the idea of f o r w a r d i n g a bill 18 for the hours r e f l e c t e d in the D e c e m b e r 12 invoice was 19 Mr. McCrea's', f o r w a r d i n g it to P h e l a n , P o p e & J o h n ? 20 Y e s . 21 A n d I n o t i c e that y o u h a v e i n c l u d e d b o t h p r e p a r a t i o n 22 t i m e an d a f u l l d a y ' s w o r k for the a c t u a l d e p o s i t i o n : 23 is that r i g h t ? 904742 ---- ,---------- .-- ;----- ----------- -------------- ;---- :----- -- ------ - :1CT 1 A Yes, I did. * Q Old Mr. McCrea request that you include the preparation 3 time in your bill? 4 A I don't specifically recall that he did. I assumed 5 that it was appropriate. 6 Q Where was the four hours of preparation time spent on 7 November 29? . 8 A That was spent in my hotel room reviewing the documents 9 here in the binder. 10 Q T h e n e x t e x h i b i t is E x h i b i t 17 w h i c h is a c o p y ci an 11 a r t i c l e c a l l e d S k i n L e s i o n s in A n i m a l s and H u m a n s : A 12 Brief O v e r v i e w . Is that the a r t i c l e Mr. M c C r e a s h o w e d 13 you this m o r n i n g on the way from the airport, 1 guess? 14 A Yes, it is. 15 Q Did you have a chance to r e a d this article? 16 A No. 17 Q D i d he tell y o u w h y he wa s s h o w i n g it to y o u b e f o r e the IS d e p o s i t i o n ? 19 A Y e s . 20 0 W h a t w as that? 21 A That was because recently Mr. C on a r d talked to a person 22 w h o h a d a c o w w i t h d e f o r m e d feet. A n d I b e l i e v e he 23 l o o k e d at the c ow and the feet. A n d that j o g g e d 904743 ------------- --------- ;-- -- -------------- ---------- :------ -----rrs1 David's memory, I believe, about something he had seen 2 having to do with defor me d hooves on cattle. 3 And that made the connection. And he was telling 4 me that experience and showed me this this morning and 5 a p i c t u r e of a co w w i t h the d e f o r m e d feet in f i g u i e 6. 6 Have you discussed the condition of deformed feet with 7 Mr . Conard? 8 Yes, we did d iscuss it. 9 Did he have any cattle with this condition? 10 I b e l i e v e we were t a l k i n g about his hogs. Well, now, I 11 don't know whether he has had any cattle. I don't 12 re c a l l him s a y i n g that he has had a cow w i t h d e f o r m e d 13 feet like t h i s . 14 But he k n e w of a co w t h a t h a d d e f o r m e d fe e t li k e this; 15 is that c o r r e c t ? . 16 He r e c e n t l y s a w a c o w w i t h d e f o r m e d feet like t h i s . 17 yes . IS Do you k n o w w h e r e that was? 19 Somewhere near Bloomington a fellow who has a silo that 20 was c o n t a m i n a t e d on the i n s i d e w i t h a P C B - c o n t a i n i n g 21 s u b s t a n c e , p r e s u m a b l y the c o w ate l a r g e q u a n t i t i e s of 22 PCB. T h i s is s o m e y e a r s l a t e r . She ha9 d e f o r m e d feet 23 and is g i v i n g b i r t h to d e f o r m e d o f f s p r i n g . 904744 -- ------------- ----------------- ------------------------------ irS-r- 1 Q You don't know the name of the owner of that cow, do 2 you? 3 A No, I don't. 4 Q And from the information that you have obtained 5 relating to that cow do you believe that the deformed 6 feet and the offspring problem was caused by 7 c o n s u mp t io n of feed that may have been c o n t a m i n a t e d 8 with PCBs? 9 A I would think there is a strong l i k el i h o o d that's the 10 11 Q case, yes. Is that b a s e d on your revi e w of this article, E x hibit 12 17? 13 A No. I ha v e n ' t r e v i e w e d that article. I have only 14 loo k e d at the picture. 15 Q Nhat s c i e nt if i c l i t e r a t u r e have you r e v i e w e d that w o ul d 16 i n d i c a t e to y o u that that c o n d i t i o n w o u l d be c a u s e d by 17 c o n s u m p t i o n of f e e d that w a s c o n t a m i n a t e d w i t h FCBs 18 f r o m a silo? 19 A I can't cite p a r ti c u l a r papers. I am aware of the 20 p o l y b r o m i n a t e d b i p h e n y l p r o b l e m . A n d I h a d h e a r d of 21 this problem before. I just had not seen the picture. 22 I ' m a l s o a w a r e I b e l i e f i t ' s g e n e r a l l y a c c e p t e d that 23 PC B s i n t e r f e r e w i t h c a l c i u m m e t a b o l i s m . T h a t 's why we 904745 ------- -- ------------ ;--- ------------:------- :----- :-----:---- ------ rrtr 1 w e r e e s s e n t i a l l y l o o k i n g for t h i n n i n g of o y s t e r shells. 2 I t 's w e l l a c c e p t e d t h a t P C B s c a u s e t h i n n i n g of 3 eggshells in birds. 4 Are there any studies that you are aware of that 5 c o n n e c t c a l c i u m p r o b l e m s in m a m m a l s w i t h e x p o s u r e to 6 PCBs at any level? 7 I d o n ' t know. B u t as I said, I r e a l l y h a v e n 't kept up 8 with that part of the literature. 5 2 That's not a subject on which you hold yourself out to 10 11 k be an expert, is it? No. 12 v E x h i b i t 18 is the J u n e 11, 1976 l e t t e r that y o u 13 r e f e r r e d to b e f o r e -- Is that correct, D o c t o r ? -- 14 to r e g i o n a l c o u n s e l ? 15 Yes. A n d if I can i n t e r r u p t for a moment, 1 w o u l d like 16 to go on the rec o r d that I am e m b a r r a s s e d at f i n d i n g 17 m y s e l f in p o s s e s s i o n of t h e s e d o c u m e n t s . B e c a u s e 1 18 a n s w e r e d y o u t r u t h f u l l y to the b e s t of roy k n o w l e d g e 19 that I had located all of the docu me nt s that were 20 r e l e v a n t to y o u r r e q u e s t . A n d I ' m e m b a r r a s s e d to find 21 that I h a d s e v e r a l m o r e . 22 R e f e r r i n g to w h a t w e ' v e m a r k e d as y o u r d e p o s i t i o n 23 E x h i b i t s 19 and 20, can you d i s t i n g u i s h those two 904746 ----------- ------- ------------- -------- ----1---------- 1------ ----- :-- 'l'?-i' 1 documents for me? 2 Because they look pretty similar except for the 3 order of the pages. Why don't you do it with the 4 actual exhibits. 5 A Oh, okay. Your copy didn't copy very well here for No. 6 19. On the upper line there it says To: patent 7 committee chairman. 8 I'm guessing - - I t ' s been a long time since I have 5 p r o d u c e d t h e s e d o c u m e n t s -- that 19 is the d o c u m e n t 10 that I put together to s en d to the W e s t i n g h o u se patent 11 committee for e va luation as to whether Wes ti n gh o us e 12 wanted to file a patent. 13 D o c u m e n t 20 I b e l i e v e is w h e r e I f i l l e d out a 14 W e s t i n g h o u s e d o c u m e n t c a l l e d an i n v e n t i o n d i s c l o s u r e , lb as it says in the u p p e r left. O b v i o u s l y some of the 16 m a t e r i a l lo o k s the s a m e b e c a u s e it is the same 17 m a t e r i a l . I t h i n k i t 's just two d i f f e r e n t form s . IS Q W h a t 's the p u r p o s e of E x h i b i t 20? 19 If my m e m o r y s e r v e s me right, the p r o c e d u r e in tht 20 W e st i n g h o u s e R and D l a b o r a t o r y at the time I worked 21 t h e r e was to -- O u r l a b o r a t o r y wa s a b r a n c h of *>-V W e s t i n g h o u s e R a n d D l a b o r a t o r y . If y o u ca m e up w i t h 23 an idea that was p o t e n t i a l l y patentable, perhaps could 904747 TT7 1 lead to p ro d u c t i o n of a d evice that the cor p o rat io n 2 might want to sell, when you first came up with this 3 i d e a y o u s h o u l d put it in y o u r r e c o r d book, d e s c r i b e it 4 in your r e c o r d book as y ou h ad it and then get an 5 i n v e n t i o n d i s c l o s u r e form., w h i c h I b e l i e v e this f o r m to 6 be, fill it out, get it w i t n e s s e d by p e o p l e who were 7 q u a l i f ie d to u n d e r s t a n d the idea and signed and dated 8 in case someone somewhere else should perhaps come up 9 with the same idea so that eventually legally you could 10 go b a c k a n d f i g h t o v e r w h o h a d the f i r s t c l a i m to the 11 invention. 12 A ll right. So, is it fair to say E x h i b i t s 1 9 , and 20 13 w e r e d r a f t e d by y o u in c o n f o r m i t y w i t h W e s t i n g h o u s e 's 14 p a t e n t p o l i c i e s for i n v e n t i o n s by p e o p l e in its R a n d D 15 lab? 16 Y'es, I t h i n k t h a t 's a f a i r s t a t e m e n t . 17 A n d E x h i b i t 21, I d o n 't k n o w that we e v e r i d e n t i f i e d 13 what that is. For the record, it c o n s i s t s of five 19 pa g e s b e g i n n i n g w i t h an O c t o b e r 17, 1979 l e tter to the 20 e d i t o r of C h e m i c a l a n d E n g i n e e r i n g N e w s f r o m you. 21 Yes. 22 C a n y o u d e f i n e w h a t t h a t is? 23 Oh, yes. I had read in the C and E News September 24th 904748 ---------------; --------------------- `-- -------- -- ------- :--1 on p a g e s 6 end 7, a n e w s a r t i c l e t a l k i n g about a t o x i c 2 waste dumper who got a two-year fine. The statement 3 was made that this was the first time federal criminal 4 charges had been brought against someone for polluting 5 a waterway. 6 I knew that to be not true because I had been 7 involved in an earlier case where someone was convicted - 8 under the F e d e r a l C l e a n H a t e r Act. And that i3 described on the second page, the news release that 10 c a m e f r o m E P A R e g i o n 3. So, I w r o t e this letter to the 11 editor of C h e m i c a l and E n g i n e e r i n g Hews p o i n t i n g out 12 his error. 13 A n d the last page, then, is the e d i t o r ' s letter14 back to me t h a n k i n g me for the letter and a d m it t i n g 15 that I was right, that our case was indeed the first, 16 net the one they cited in the magazine. 17 D i d t h e y i s s u e a r e t r a c t i o n o t h e r t h a n p r i v a t e l y ? 18 They did not. But in the earlier d e p o s i t i o n I believe 19 we talked about this p a r t i c u l a r case. It was p ol lu ti on 20 of the D e l a w a r e R i v e r , if my m e m o r y is s e r v i n g me 21 correctly. 22 H a v e y o u r e v i e w e d any h e a l t h s t u d i e s on i n d i v i d u a l s 23 living in Bloomington, Indiana, who might have been 904749 ------------------------------------------------------ ---------------------------------------------1 exposed Co PCBs? T7T I don't think so, u n l e s s there is an article amongst 3 our numbered exhibits that falls in that category. And 4 I d o n 't r e c a l l t h e r e b e i n g one. 5 I d o n ' t e i t her. If y o u t h i n k t h e r e is one -- 6 I d o n 't think so. 7 Are you aware that the Center for Disease Control and 6 the I ndian a State Board of H e a l t h c o n d u c t e d a study S sometime prior to 1984 to d et e r m i n e whether people who 10 live near the PCB landfills or who have eaten fish that 11 were contaminated with PCBs accumulate higher than the 12 n o r m a l l e v e l s of PCBs in their b o d i e s ? 13 I believe David m e n t i o n e d to me some study that was 14 done by the Center for Dise a s e Control, but 1 don't 15 re m em b er the subs t a n c e of that study. 16 Y o u 've n e v e r a s k e d h i m for a c o p y of th a t s t u d y to 17 r e v i e w it; is that c o r r e c t ? 18 I have not. 19 If I were to tell you that one of the i n d i v i d u a l s who 20 w a s i n v o l v e d in that s t u d y fo r the I n d i a n a S t a t e B o a r d 21 of H e a l t h c o n c l u d e d th a t th e t e s t i n g c l e a r l y s h o w s thac 22 l i v i n g n e a r an a r e a or e v e n e a t i n g c o n t a m i n a t e d fish 23 does not r esu l t in e l e v a t e d levels, w o u l d that be the 904750 -------- ------------------------------- ---------------- ----- ---------- H-5r 1 first time that you would have heard that conclusion? 2 MR. McCREA: To which we will object for 3 the reason the statement is completely out of context 4 contrary to the information developed in Bloomington, 5 Indiana, and does not provide an accurate assessment of 6 the situation. 7 Q You can answer the question. . 8 A I haven't read the study. I don't remember hearing 9 such a conclusion. 10 Q Is it fair to say, then, you were unaware that the 11 State epidemiologists had indicated that the study that 12 they had conducted with the CDC can help to alleviate^ 13 some of the anxieties apparent in the community as to 14 the presumed adverse health effects of being exposed to 15 some of these routes, namely routes of PCB exposure? 15 A I'm not sure I followed that question. 17 MR. FELDMAN: Can you repeat the question. IS (The Reporter complied with Counsel's request and 19 read as directed.) 20 Q 21 It's a long question, but do you understand what I'm asking? A*m mm I think so. I 've never heard that the State 23 epidemiologist has made that statement. 904751 ---------- -- ------------------------------- ;-------------- ;-------- TT5" Okay. Are you aware of any data which contradicts the c o n c l u s i o n of the CDC and the I n d i a n a State Board of 3 H e a l t h that l i v i n g n e a r an a r e a c o n t a i n i n g PCBs such as 4 the landf il l s or eating c o n t a m i n a t e d fish caught in 5 B l o o m in g to n results in elevated levels in humans? 6 MR. M c C R E A : A g a i n . .to w h i c h I would 7 object. 8 MR. FELDMAN; It's a general question. I 9 itled to ask him that. 10 MR. McCREA: Could I make my objection? 11 MR. F E L D M A N : Sure. 12 MR. McCREA: T h e r e are nume r o us s t u d i e s in 13 Indiana, many of w h i c h are -14 MR. FELDMAN: I don't want you to answer 15 the q u e s t i o n fci him, Dav i d . If y o u h a v e an o b j e c t i o n 16 to the f o r m or r e l e v a n c e of m y q u e s t i o n s , t h a t 's fine. 17 But I d o n ' t w a n t y o u to a n s w e r the q u e s t i o n I hav 18 giv e n to him. I don't think that's a fair o b j e c t i o n . 19 MR. McCREA: I'm not answ er in g the 20 q u e s t i o n for him. I'm p r o t e c t i n g the r e c o r d . T h e r e 21 are n u m er o u s studies. The only way in w h i c h an 22 i n d i v i d u a l c o u l d p r o p e r l y a n s w e r t h a t q u e s t i o n w o u l d be 23 to be a pp ri s e d of all of the studies, not isolated 904752 -------- . -- -- -------- -- ---- :------------------------ ------ -- --1 sentences from studies w h i c h may or may not be relevant St to a g i v e n s i t u a t i o n . 3 MR. FELDMAN: I'm not sure I disagree with 4 that. I'm asking the general question what's he aware 5 of? 6 HR. McCREA: Would you identify the study 7 and the quote and the page? 8 MR. FELDMAN: I'd be ha p p y to, but I t h i n k 9 1 can still ask him the question. 10 Q Are you aware of any s tudies or data -- A c t u a l l y I 11 a s k e d it r i g h t the fi r s t time. A n d I'll n e v e r get it 12 right t w i c e . 13 MR. FELDMAN: May b e the r e p o r t e r will read 14 it back. 15 (The R e p o r t e r c o m p l i e d w i t h C o u n s e l ' s r e q u e s t and 16 read as d i r e c t e d . ) 17 A I'm not a w a r e of any data. But I d o n ' t t h i n k I've se e n 18 all of the d a t a . 19 Q Have you done a search for data of that nature? 20 A No. Y o u 've a l r e a d y a s k e d m e w h a t I h a v e . I h a v e what 21 I ' v e s u p p l i e d . 22 MR. F E L D M A N : Mr. M c C r e a a s k e d me to 23 i d e n t i f y the study, a nd I 'll be h a p p y to do that. It's 904753 -------- ---- ,------- : -- ---:---------------- -------------- -- ---- V T Z 1 in the A r c h i v e s of E n v i r o n m e n t a l H e a l t h V o l u m e 41 No. 2 4. A n d the s t a t e m e n t is by Or. S t e e l of the I n d i a n a 3 State Board of H ealth -- I'm sorry. I t ' s Greg Steel. 4 I 've n e v e r k n o w n w h e t h e r he is a d o c t o r or not. S t a t e 5 e p i d e m i o l o g i s t , June 22, 1984. Both d o c u m e n t s h a v e 6 been p r o vi d ed to Mr. McCrea. 7 W h e n y o u s a i d a m o m e n t ago that you h ad p r o v i d e d us 8 w i t h all the a r t i c l e s y o u h a d r e v i e w e d , I take it, 9 then, th a t y o u h a v e n 't r e v i e w e d an y a r t i c l e s on 10 o c c u p a t i o n a l e x p o s u r e s to P C B s a n d the h e a l t h a f f e c t s 11 th a t m i g h t r e s u l t f r o m that; is that c o r r e c t ? 12 T h a t 's c o r r e c t . 13 Have you asked Mr. M c C r e a to prov i d e you w i t h s t u d i e s 14 of that n ature? 15 N o , I h a v e n 't . 16 A n d I t a k e it s i n c e y o u h a v e n ' t r e v i e w e d a ny t h a t y o u 17 a l s o h a v e n 't c o n d u c t e d any s e a r c h for any s u c h s t u d i e s ; 18 is that correct? 19 T h a t 's t r u e . 20 A r e y o u a w a r e of w h e t h e r a n y of t h e m e x i s t ? 21 I b e l i e v e that there were some s a m p l e s taken from the 22 W e s t i n g h o u s e e m p l o y e e s at s o m e p o i n t . I t h o u g h t they 23 had e le va t ed levels. I don't know. I don't remember. 904754 -- --------- --- -- ------------------ -- -- ;------- ;-------- 1 I h a v e n 't s e e n the report.' ----- ;-- '- p T f 2 Q When did you become aware that there were such samples 3 taken? 4 A After I started doing the consulting work for Mr. 5 McCrea. 6 Q But you've not attempted to locate those studies in 7 that period of time? 8 A N o , I h a v e n 't . 9 Q Doctor, I'm q u o t i n g from a s u m m a r y of a s y m p o s i u m 10 c o n d u ct ed in 1982 s p o n s o r e d by the O f fice of T o x i c 11 S u b s t a n c e s of the U. S, E P A in w h i c h the w r i t e r 12 c o n c l u d e d t h a t it is e v i d e n t t h a t af t e r 50 y e a r s of 13 in d u s t r i a l p r o d u c t i o n and use of PCBs no s i g n i f i c a n t 14 clinical d i s e a s e or clear e p i d e m i o l o g i c a l c o r r e l a t i o n s 15 have been observed in occupati ona lly -ex pos ed persons. 16 Have you re v i e w e d any mater i a l s that would lead 17 yo u to d i s p u t e that f i n d i n g ? 18 A S e e m s to me I 've h e a r d th a t s o m e of the d a t a t h a t is 19 str ong ly cited having to do w ith the claim that PCBs 20 d o n ' t i n d u c e c a n c e r , s o m e of that d a t a h a s b e e n s h o w n 21 to be f a l s e . In fact, I t h i n k s o m e b o d y w e n t to jail 22 over it. I don't k now if tha t a n s w e r e d your quest i o n . 23 But I b e l i e v e that t h e r e 's b e e n a c o n s i d e r a b l e a m o u n t 904755 1 2 3 4 5 5 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 TK of c o n t r o v e r s y o v e r the s u b j e c t . A n d i t 's my o p i n i o n that many of those statements are made foe political reasons, not for epidemiology or human health reasons. Okay. I guess I still have my initial question which is: Are you aw a r e of and can you re f e r us to any studies that wou ld lead you to dispute the truth of that statement? I can't lead you to any studies, no. And I take it you h a v e n ' t s e a r c h e d for any stu d i e s ? I haven't searched for any, no. And the same author of the same summary also concluded that c o n s i d e r i n g the lower and d e c l i n i n g e x p o s u r e to PCBs via the e n v i r o n m e n t it seems unlikely that significant injury will be observed from environmental exp osure to PCBs. A n d I w o u l d ask you the same q u e s t i o n as to that conclusion. Have you reviewed any material which would lead you to d i s p u t e the a c c u r a c y of that s t a t e m e n t ? I don't have any published materials. 1 have my own opinion on the subject. W h e n y o u s a y y o u d o n 't h a v e any p u b l i s h e d m a t e r i a l s , is your opinion based on a review of published materials' No. It's b a s e d u p o n m y e x p e r i e n c e of the m o v e m e n t of 904756 -- -- ------ -- ---- :------ ----------- ------------- ----- -- ---- 1 PCBs in the environment. 1837- 2 Q All right. W e l l , just io we're clear, the statement 3 refers to s ig n i f i c a n t injury from e n v i r o n m e n t al 4 e x p o s u r e s to PCBs. I just wan t to b e s u r e yo u 5 understood that. 6 A The statement was also talking about declining 7 e nv ir o nm e n t a l levels which seemed to imply the risk to . 8 human beings is s o m e t h i n g we s h o u l d not worry about now 9 because the levels are declining. And my concern comes 10 from the point of view of the peop l e of B l o o m i n g t o n and 11 w h a t 's g o i n g to h a p p e n w h e n t h e y b e g i n i n c i n e r a t i n g 12 PCBs an d w i t h o u t an a d e q u a t e m o n i t o r i n g p r o g r a m . 13 My p r e d i c t i o n is the e x p o s u r e s are goi n g to go up 14 d r a m a t i c a l l y in the city of B l o o m i n g t o n . 15 Q Apart from your opi n i o n s as to the e f fects of the 16 incinerator in Bloomington, do you di s a g r e e with the 17 a u t h o r ' s s t a t e m e n t th a t it is u n l i k e l y t h a t s i g n i f i c a n t 18 injury will be o b s e r v e d from e n v i r o n m e n t a l e x p o s u r e to 19 PCBs? 20 A 21 Yes, I do disagree with that. I predict there are going to be significant injuries fro the environmental 22 e x p o s u r e s to PCBs, yes. 23 I ta k e it by s i g n i f i c a n t i n j u r y y o u m e a n i l l n e s s cr 904757 -- ------- '-- 1-- --------------;----------- ;--------------- ----- :-- rsT1 diaease; is that correct? m Y e s . 3 And is that based on a review of literature? 4 No, it's not. 5 Is it based on personal experience? 6 Y e s , it i s . 7 What is the pe r s o n a l exp e r i e n c e that that c o n c lu si o n of . 8 y o u r s is b a s e d on? 9 Well, b a s i c a l l y my p r e d i c t i o n is b a s e d u p o n my 10 experience with landfill and disposal operations of 11 toxic chemicals. And my p r e d i c t i o n is that the 12 p r o p o s e d p l a n is g o i n g to r e s u l t in s p r e a d i n g h i g h 13 levels of PCBs th r o u g h o u t the e n v i r o n m e n t , and the 14 p e o p l e n e a r or on the d o w n w i n d side of the i n c i n e r a t o r 15 are going to be e x p o s e d to levels high e nough to cause 16 injury and disease. 17 Okay. So, y o u ' r e r e f e r r i n g to y o u r v i e w s on the 18 B l o o m i n g t o n situation; is that correct? 19 Yes, I am. 20 L e t ' s l e a v e that ou t j u s t fo r the m o m e n t . 21 I thought we were talking about Bloomington. 22 I didn't understand that's what you were saying, but 23 that'a fine. 904758 -- -------------- -------------------- :---- :----:-- ------ -- ------------ i-e-31 A O k a y . P a r d o n me. 2 Q A p a r t f r o m y o u r c o n c l u s i o n s a b o u t the e f f e c t s of the 3 remedies that are being conducted in Bloomington, do 4 you agree with the author's statement that it unlikely 5 significant injury will be observed from environmental 6 exposure to PCBs? 7 A W e l l , o n c e a gain, I 've g o t a p r o b l e m . I ' m f a m i l i a r . 8 wi t h w h a t '9 h a p p e n i n g in B l o o m i n g t o n . But it's my 9 u n d e r s t a n d i n g that there are high levels of PCB wastes 10 in various locat i o n s across the country. It depe n d s 11 u p o n who y o u ' r e t a l k i n g about and w h e r e they live. 12 Q Okay. Are you aware of any individual, any human, who 13 has s u s ta in ed any p e r s o n a l injury as a result of 14 e n v i r o n m e n t a l e x p o s u r e to PCBs? 15 A I have s poken to at least one individual who w or ke d at 16 the W e s t i n g h o u s e plant. I've b e e n told -17 Q I'm goi n g to d e f i n e that as o c c u p a t i o n a l exposure. I'm 18 t a l k i n g about e n v i r o n m e n t a l exposure. 19 A What about the people who ate all the contaminated rice 20 oil? Is that e n v i r o n m e n t a l or is t h a t o c c u p a t i o n a l ? 21 Q Do it this way: Are y o u a w a r e o f a n y i n d i v i d u a l s who 22 have s us t a i n e d injury or i l lness as a result of the 23 g e n e r a l l y lower levels of PCBs w h i c h may be pres e n t in : 904759 ------ ------------------------------- -- --------------------------------- ---------------------------- r r r - 1 the e n v i r o n m e n t as d i s t i n g u i s h e d f r o m I think the high 2 levels that individuals were exposed to in the Yusho 3 incident? 4 Hell, t h e r e w e r e q u i t e a n u m b e r of w o m e n w h o were if 5 not physically damaged were emotionally damaged because 6 they couldn't bre ast-feed their infants because of the 7 high level of PCBs that a cc um ulated in their personal 8 milk. Is that i n j u r y or i l l n e s s ? I d o n ' t know. It 9 d e p e n d s on h o w y o u d e f i n e the q u a l i t y of life. 1 w o u l d 10 consider that injury. And that was true of quite a 11 n u m b e r of w o m e n in th i s c o u n t r y . T h e i r b r e a s t mil); was 12 unfit for human c o n s u m p t i o n accor d i n g to the FDA 13 limits. 14 O t h e r t han the p s y c h o l o g i c a l i n j u r i e s as you 15 c h a r a c t e r i z e it in that s i t u a t i o n , are you aware of any 16 other i n s t a n c e s ? 17 No. I gues s I c a n 't think of any at the moment. 18 A n d I ta k e it t h a t y o u h a v e no t d o n e a l i t e r a t u r e 19 search to review the literature on environmental 20 e x p o s u r e s a n d t h e i r p o s s i b l e h e a l t h a f f e c t s ; is that 21 c o r r e c t ? Y o u 're t a l k i n g a b o u t to a n i m a l s in g e n e r a l or to 23 humans ? 904760