Document Xzm4vYxwNa6axNkyQDjpZyK2B

S RAYMOND HARBISON ~ V~els~col 1332 1 ()1 11 called as a witness by and on 1 1 2 behalf of the defendant Velsicol Chemical Corporation# having 3 been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows : 4 S THE COURT : Would you have a seat over here in the 6 witness stand . 7 All rightf air . 8 DIRECT EXAMINATION 9 10 BY MR . BEYER : 11 06 Doctor, please state your name . 12 IL My name is Raymond Harbison . 13 4 14 L And what is your current employment, air? I'm employed at the University of Arkansas for Medical 15 Sciences . 16 And what is your position there? 17 I an director of the Division of Toxicology in the 18 interdisciplinary Toxicology Program, which is a cooperative 19 program between the University of Arkansas for Medical 20 Sciences and the National Center for Toxicological Research . 21 Could you tell us something about your educational 22 background, air? 23 L I 'received a Bachelor of Science degree from Drake 24 University in pharmacy in 1965 . 1 received a master of 2S Science degree in pharmacology in 1967 from the University of 1333 Iowa, and I received a doctorate in pharmacology and 2 toxicology from the University of Iowa School of Medicine in 3 1969 . 4 Could you tell us somethingr Doctort about your employme t 5 prior to your present employment at the University of Arkansas 6 Medical School? 7 L Yes . I was employed by Tulane Medical School for 8 approximately three years, where I was an assistant professor 9 of pharmacology and investigator in the laboratory of 10 environmental medicine . I subsequently went to Vanderbilt 11 Medical Center for approximately ten years, where I was in 12 the Department of Pharmacology and the Center for Clinical 13 Pharmacology and Toxicology . 14 06 And could you tell us something about the duties that is you now perform at the University of Arkansas? 16 L Yes . I teach medical students in the area of toxicology . 17 I also teach emergency medicine residents in the area of is toxicology . I conduct research on the effects of 19 environmental toxicants and chemicals on the living organism, 20 and I direct a graduate education program for students who 21 are receiving a degree in toxicology . 22 Do you do any consulting work at any hospitals? 23 Yest .I do . 24 (I Could you tell us about that, please? 25 L I'm a consultant to the emergency room at the University 1334 I Hospital and to various hospitals within the Arkansas 2 imediate area . 3 And have you done any work in the area of birth defects? 4 L Yes, I have . 5 QL Could you tell us about that? 6 & I have conducted evaluations of chemicals for their 7 ability to produce birth defects and I also run a prenatal 8 diagnostic testing laboratory for the evaluation of neurotube 9 defects during the first trimester of pregnancy . 10 (L Have you done any work with or for any federal agencies n or federal goverment bureaus? 12 L Yes, I have . 13 Q. Could you tell us about that, please? 14 L I have served as an expert witness for the United States 15 Department of Justice in enforcement litigations concerning 16 the effects of chemicals on human health . I have served as 17 the past chairman of the National institute of Occupational IS Safety and Health Study Review Group, which is the group that 19 reviews the research being done on chemical and chemical 20 exposures in the workplace . 21 1 have also served as a consultant to the Envirome 22 Protection Agency for approximately the last eight years in 23 the evaluation of human health effects associated with ther 24 spills or the presence of chemicals in the enviroment . ' 25 Q. And have you done work with the National Institutes of 1335 Environmental Health and Safety? 2 Yes, I have . 3 Could you tell us about that, please? 4 L For approximately the last twelve years I have received 5 funds from the National Institute of Environmental Health -6 Sciences to evaluate the effects of environmental toxicants 7 on the living system . 8 % And have you done any research on pesticides? 9 L Year I have . 10 Q. Would you tell us about that, please? 11 L I have evaluated the effects of chlordane and other 12 chlorinated hydrocarbon insecticides and pesticides as well 13 as the organophosphate insecticides and pesticides . 14 Q. Has that been funded by any public agency? is & Yes, it has . 16 Q. Would you tell us what it was, please? 17 L It's been funded by -- primarily by the National Institut 18 of Environmental Health Sciences as well as the National 19 Foundation, March of Dimes . 20 Q. And about what was the grant level that yoii've received 21 over the past several years for that? 22 X I would estimate that over the last ton years itls~ 23 probably been around $3,000,000 .00 . 24 Q. And have you done any work for the State of Floridat~ 25 L Yes, I have . 1336 Q, What did you do for them? 2 L For the State of Floridar I evaluated the effects -3 the human health effects of a variety of chemicals that might 4 be found in the environment, specifically to develop water 5 quality criteria, that is, the criteria that would be used 6 to set the allowable levels of chemicals in the water supply, 7 and I have evaluated the health effects and set the criteria 8 for chlordane in other chlorinated substances . 9 Q, Have you had any publications in scientific or scholarly 10 journals as a result of your research? 11 L Yes, I have . 12 0 13 L About how many? I would estimate that I probably have over a hundred 14 publications . Is (X And have you published material on the toxicology of 16 chlordane? 17 L Yest I have . 19 96 Are you board certified? 19 L Year I am . 20 Q. 21 L What field are you board certified in? I am board certified in the area of toxicology, with a 22 specialty in the area of the evaluation of the health effects 23 associated with the exposure to chemicals . 24 % And what requirements are there to be board certifieO 25 in that field? 1337 IL There are educational requirements, there are experience 2 requirements, and there is a general evaluation requirement . 3 4 And do you belong to any professional associations? 4 & Yang I do . S4 Could you tell us about those, please? 6 L I belong to the Society of Toxicologyg the American 7 Association for Pharmacology and Experimental Therapeutics, 8 the Teratology Society and the American Association for the 9 Advancement of Science . 4 And what is teratologyg sir? L Teratology is the study of birth defects . 12 Have you ever been qualified to testify as an expert in 13 the federal court? 14 L Yes, I have . Is 4 About how many times? 16 L I would estimate approximately a half a dozen times . 17 MR . BEYER : Your Honor, at this point we'd like to 18 proffer Dr . Harbison as an expert in the field of toxicology . 19 MR . WOOLF : Well, Your Honor, I would agree that 20 he's a toxicologist . I don't know if he's got any relevance 21 to this case an yet . We haven't shown anything having to do 22 with this case . I understand he does water quality researchs, 23 but he hasn't been tied into this case or into chlordane . 24 THE COURTt Overruled . 2S Wellp I'm going to permit his to testify in the 1338 field of toxicology . if you have any specific objection to 2 his testimony coming int of courset you let me know . 3 BY MR. BEYER: 4 Doctor,, would you please explain to us what toxicology 5 6L Toxicology is basically the study of the harmful effects, 7 of chemicals and other substances on the living system . a Q, in the study of toxicology, in there a concept of 9 threshold? 10 L Yes, there is . 11 Could you tell us about that, please? 12 L Yes . One of the most important concepts in the area of '13 toxicology is to be able to determine the level or the 14 concentration that is required to produce an effect . That 15 level or concentration is called the threshold, and the 16 threshold is essentially the level that is required in the 17 living system to produce an effect . 18 An analogy might be the taking of certain medication P 19 for example . You know that you have to take two pills or 20 four pills, basically, to have an effect . 21 The toxicologist evaluates the levels of chemicals 22 that are required to produce certain effects in the living 23 system . 24 96 And does the notion of threshold apply to all chemicals? 2S L Not to all . 1339 Q, Does it apply to chlordane and heptachlor? 2 IL Yes, it does . 3 MR. WOOLF : Objection, Your Honor . We haven't 4 still haven't had any qualifications of the witness to give 5 an opinion on chlordane and heptachlor . 6 THE COURT : He said he's made studiest as I 7 Wellt did you say that you made studies of chlordar a THE WITNESS : Yes, air, I have . 9 NR. WOOLF : Could we find out what, Your Honor? I 10 THE COURT : Huh? 11 MR . WOOLF : We still have a problem with this 12 witness' qualifications to give an opinion on chlordane and 13 heptachlor . He's certainly qualified as a general toxicologJ 14 and I understand that he's certified as a general toxicologit 15 but we have not related this man to chlordane thresholds in 16 humans or any other organisms . 17 THE COURTt Wellt he hasn't had time to talk about 18 I it yet . 19 MR . WOOLF : Well, but he's elicited -- he's trying 20 to elicit the opinion first without getting the qualifications 21 That's my objectiont Your Honor . 22 A He may very well be qualified, but I think ho's 23 got a cart-and-horse problem . That's my objection . 24 4~ THE COURT : Well, he says he's a toxicologist and 2S I've said that he can certainly testify in that field, and he 1340 1 says that he's done studies in chlordane and you can 2 cross-examine him about itt but I'm certainly going to let 3 him testify about toxicology and chlordane . 4 MR . WOOLF : So I don't have to keep interrupting S Mr . Boyer, Your Honor, I just don't know about a general 6 objection 7 THE COURT : Well, no . Any time he asks a question 8 that you object -- have any reservations about it, you object 9 to it . 10 The jury understands it's your duty to object when 11 you think you should . 12 I just don't want some general objection that you 13 might state now and thenr for other purposes later on, contend 14 that it covered a half an hour of testimony . is MR . WOOLF : I appreciate that, Your Honor . 16 THE COURT : if you object to a question, you just 17 object to it . 18 MR . WOOLF : All right . I'll just have to keep 19 THE COURT : We'll forgive you . 20 MR . WOOLF : Thank you,, Your Honor . N 21 THE COURT : The jury will certainly understand 22 that's your duty to your client . 23 MR. WOOLFi Thank you, Your Honor . 24 BY MR . BEYER: 25 Q. Does the idea of a threshold for an effect of chlordane 1341 or heptachlor apply to human beings? 2 L Yes, it does . 3 if, in a human beingr chlordane or heptachlor passed th! 4 threshold, what is the mode of action of those chemicals on 5 the human body? 6 MR. WOOLF : Objection . 7 THE COURT : All right . overruled . 8L Chlordane has a very specific effect in the body . 9 Chlordane is very specific for the nervous system, 10 and what chlordane does is to alter the ability of '+he 11 nervous system to transmit various messages and the results 12 of that alteration essentially is a stimulation of the nervous 13 system which can result in a variety of symptoms . 14 So that the basic effect of chlordane is on the is nervous system to essentially alter the normal transmission 16 or the normal function of the nervous system . 17 06 (By Mr . Beyer :) When you say chlordane,, do you mean to is include heptachlor as well? z 19 & Year I do . z W 20 Q, And in order to have this effect, do I understand you 21 to be saying that chlordane or heptachlor have to pass a WT 22 certain amount in the human body? 23 L Chlordane and heptachlor have to reach a certain level 24 within the human body before they will have such an effect . 25 a if chlordane or haptachlor reach a high enough level to 1342 1 pass that threshold and have this effect, what are the 2 external signs or symptoms that you would expect to see in 3 somebody? 4L If the chlordane or heptachlor reaches a level that in S able to affect the nervous system, the results are essentially 6 a stimulation of the nervous system, and the first effects 7 would be an increased excitation, essentially increased 8 movement, agitation, perhaps a general increase in activity ; 9 that, if the level got higher, would pass to a tremor or 10 a constant motion of the body and ultimately it might result 11 in a convulsion, which would be the most extreme . 12 4 And would you please describe what a convulsion is? 13 L A convulsion is an extreme contraction of all the muscles 14 of the body, resulting in a rigidity of the body and a shaking is of the body, which can in fact injure the body if the 16 convul sion goes on for some period of time . 17 It in essentially an uncontrolled contraction of 18 all the muscles of the body . 19 Is that sometimes called a seizure? 20 Yes, it in . h 21 in that something that's really dramatic to witness? 22 L 23 Yes . If a person has a convulsiont is that person liable to'~ 24 become injured from falling down or other side effects of, 25 the convulsion? 1343 mR . WOOLF : objection . 2 Are we talking about chlordane seizure or other 3 seizures? 4 can we tie this into something so as to make it 5 relevant to the case? otherwiser I have to object . 6 THE COURT : Well, he's talking about convulsions 7 in generall as I understand the question . 8 MR . BEYER : Yes, Your Honor . 9 BY MR. BEYER: 10 4 Are the convulsions that come from too high a level of 11 chlordane or heptachlor in the body different from convulsions 12 generally? 13 L 14 4 No . they are not . All right . So is it possible that somebody who has a 15 convulsion will be injured? 16 L 17 % That is correct . What kinds of injuries might you expect from somebody is who convulses? 19 L Wellp the initial onset of a convulsion generally 20 results in the loss of consciousness . So as the muscles 21 begin to contract, the individual will lose consciousness and 22 fall down so that injuries can occur as a result of falling 23 and subsequentlyr because of the muscle contractiong the 24 severity of the muscle contractions, actually bones can be 25 broken and vertebrae can be fractured and other bones of the 1344 1 body can actually be injured as a result of the uncontrolled 2 contraction of the muscles either as a result of banging 3 into something or falling or just from the contraction of the 4 muscles themselves . 5 Is the agitationt tremors and convulsion a progression 6 that constitutes a single syndrome? 7L Yes, it is . 84 Would you explain to the jury what a syndrome is? 9L A syndrome is a collection of symptoms or a group of 10 symptoms that occurs as a result of some initiation of some 11 process within the body . So that the syndrome here would be 12 initial agitation, which could pass on to tremors or shaking 13 of the body and then ultimately into a convulsion, which 14 would be the loss of consciousness and severe muscle Is contractions . 16 06 In that progression in any way diagnostic of chlordano 17 poisoning? 18 L Yes, it in . 19 4 Now, in order to get this characteristic result of 20 chlordans poisoning, what kinds of levels are in fact N 21 necessary in the body? 22 V MR. WOOLF- objection . 23 THE COURT : overruled . 24 L The levels that would be necessary in the blood would be 25 levels of from approximately two parts per million to sonewhe 1345 1 around three to three and a half parts per million . 24 (By Mr . Beyer :) Well, I want to make sure that we 3 understand this . 4 You're talking about parts per million with an 5 am" ; in that right? 6L Year air, that's correct . 7a So if people had two or three parts per billiont with 8 a Ob,n in their blood of various metabolites of chlordaner 9 that would be a thousand times less? 10 L Yes, Sir . 11 4 Okay . If somebody is in fact poisoned by chlordane and 12 is exhibiting this syndromer how is that person treated? 13 MR . WOOLF : I'm going to have to keep objecting, 14 Your Honor . 15 THE COURT : Overruled . 16 L The general treatment for those symptoms are essentially 17 symptomatic ; that is, the convulsionsr if they occur, are 18 simply treated by drugs which are known to control convulsion 19 So, essentially, it's fairly easy to treat those -- 20 those symptom which occur . 21 (By Mr . Beyer :) In there a specific antidote to chlorda 22 L Nero, there is no antidote to chlordane . 23 Is that good or bad? 24 THE COURT : We're going far afield now . Let's see 25 if we can't -- 1346 Ia (By Mr . Beyer :) Of the persons who have been poisoned 2 and who show this characteristic syndrome that you've experienced, 3 if they recover, do they show any long-term effects? 4 MR. WOOLF : Objection . THE COURT : Overruled . 6L Mo . they do not show long-term effects . 7 The effects of chlordane are temporary . While the chlordane is in the blood at the threshold level or above, 8 9 it can cause these effects or these symptoms, but when the 10 chlordane disappears, essentially those effects are no longer produced . 11 12 So it is a temporary effect which is produced only 13 while the chlordane is present at those levels to produce that 14 effect . 15 (By Mr . Beyer :) Now, we've been talking about blbod levels . I'd like to ask you if there is any correlation of 16 17 any of these effects with levels of chlordane or heptachlor or their components or metabolites in the body fat? 18 19 MR . WOOLF : Objection . 20 THE COURT : Overruled . 21 No, there is essentially no correlation with the levels . 22 of chlordane or its metabolites in the body fat,, and the 23 reason that there isn't a correlation is because essentially, 24 those wAterials that are in the body fat are stored and they 25 are not available to the brain to have some action . So those 1347 substances which are in the fat essentially are unavailable 1 2 for an effect within the human body . 3 (By Mr . Beyer :) Can the symptoms of nausea or vomiting 4 be related to chlordane or heptachlor exposure? S X if the material has been drunk or if it's ingested 6 through the mouth, yes, it could result in those effects . 74 Can nausea or vomiting be associated with overexposure 8 to chlordane or heptachlor if the products have been inhaled? 9 L No . 10 a Could you tell us how chlordane and heptachlor are 11 eliminated from the body? 12 L Well, chlordane and heptachlort like many other substanc I 13 are eliminated from the body essentially by a process in 14 which the body converts these substances to other substances# is and those substances are known as metabolites . 16 So the body is able to take chlordane and heptachlc 17 and rather efficiently convert those to other substances whic 18 are subsequently eliminated or excreted from the body . So 19 that what you take in within some period of time in eliminate 20 as a result of this transformation which occurs within the 21 body . 22 Ir that what you were talking about ar the reason for 23 the transientsp the temporariness, of the effects of chlordai 24 L Yes, air, that's correct . 11~ 2S 06 Could we have an understanding that whenever I use the 1348 1 word "chlorI dane" or you use the word "chlordane,n we're I 2 talking about both chlordane and heptachlor? I 3 IL Yes, that's agreeable . 4 Okay . Now, what happens if somebody is exposed to 5 chlordane -- chlordane vapor in the air over a long period of 6 time? 7 Does that have any effects on anybody? 8 MR. WOOLF : Objection . 9 THE COURT : Overruled . 10 L Chlordane vapors in the air -- since chlordane is not 11 very volatile, there won't be a very high level of chlordane 12 vapors in the air, but even if there were chlordane vapors 13 in the air, essentially the low levels or the low-level 14 exposure for a long period of time would not result in any 15 harm because essentially the chlordane that is taken in is 16 efficiently transformed by the body into these other 17 substances which are known as metabolites and rather 18 efficiently excreted . 19 so what is taken in is essentially eliminated from 20 the body . 21 Q. (By Mr . Boyer) So if somebody lived in a house where. 22 there wore trace levels of these compounds in the air, would 23 you expect it to have any effect on them at all? 24 A. 25 Q. No, I would not . Could you explain why you wouldn't expect such an effectl 1349 F-"-- Well, because 2 MR. WOOLF : objection . 3 THE COURT : Overruled . 4 " Well, because the substances, when they're taken S in this this case, chlordanel when it's taken into the 6 body, is essentially transformed and eliminated from the body 7 so that it can never reach a level -- the threshold which is 8 required for the production of the effects of chlordane . 9 So essentially what's taken in is transformed and 10 eliminated and, at these low levels, can never achieve a 11 threshold or concentration which would produce some effect 12 or result in the symptoms that I talked about earlier . 13 4 (By Mr . Beyer :) what kind of exposure would you need, 14 say, by drinking, or whatever# in order to produce this is known syndrome of chlordane poisoning? 16 MR . WOOLF : Objection . z 17 THE COURT* Overruled . 18 L it would require a large dose of chlordane to produce z 19 those effects . You would essentially have to drink chlordane 20 to be able to get a level -- a threshold level which would N It 21 produce the results that we talked about before . W0 22 My Mr . Beyer :) Thank you, sir . 23 MR . WOOLF : Your Honor, I hate to interrupt Mr . Beye 24 again# but he seem to have lapsed into his habit of thanking 25 the witnessr and I just would ask that the CQ%rt 1350 THE COURT : Yes . 2 Members of the jury, I've called to your attention 3 before that indicated approval of a witness' answer by saying 4 'thank you" is highly improper, and I would ask counsel 5 MR . BEYER : I'll stope Your Honor . 6 THE COURT : -- to stop . 7 It's up to you to determine whether you think that 8 the answer is accurate or has any probative weight for you . 9 It's not up to counsel . BY MR . BEYER: 0 Doctor, if someone is exposed to chlordane or heptachlor 12 in an amount sufficient to cause the known effects of that 13 exposure, how soon after that exposure do the symptoms appear? 14 L The symptoms would appear immediately, within a short is period of time, or certainly within thirty minutes to an hour . 16 QL Would the symptoms appear a year or a year and a half 17 or two years after the exposure? 18 MR. WOOLF : Objection . 19 L No# they would not . 20 THE COURT : Overruled . 21 (By Mr . Beyer :) Doctor, based on your own research,, 22 your knowledge and your experience in the field, both in 23 general toxicology and in the toxicology of chlordane and 24 heptachlor, do you have an opinion to a reasonable degree of 25 scientific certainty as to whether exposure to chlordans can 1351 1 cause cognitive deficits? 2 mR. WOOLF : objection, Your Honor . He's already 3 THE COURT : Overruled . 4 mR . WOOLF : established the witness is not a S medical doctor . 6 if he asks him about medical functions an opposed 7 to toxicology, he's certainly moving out of the area . 8 THE COURT : Overruled . 9 THE WITNESS : I'm sorry . 10 Yes, I have an opinion . 11 BY MR . BEYER: 12 Q, And with regard to cognitive deficitse what is that 13 opinion, sir? 14 L My opinion is that chlordane cannot result in cognitive Is deficits . 16 9 And on the same basis and to the same degree of scientil 17 certainty, can exposure to chlordane cause someone to have 18 difficulty in new-problem solving? 19 MR . WOOLF- Same objection . 20 THE COURT : Overruled . 21 L No, chlordane cannot do that . 22 (By Mr . Beyer :) And on the salme basis and to the same 23 degree of scientific certainty, do you have an opinion as t(i 24 whether exposure to chlordane can cause memory lose? 25 MR. WOOLY : Same objection . 1352 THE COURT : Overruled . 2L Year I have an opinion, and chlordane does not produce a 3 memory loss . 4 (By Mr . Beyer :) okay . Could you explain to us all why 5 you hold that opinion? 6L The reason I hold that opinion is because we know a lot 7 about chlordans . Chlordane has been around for a long time 8 and it's been studied extensively, and essentially we know 9 the mechanism by which chlordane affects the body ; and the 10 mechanism, as I have previously explained, is a temporary 11 effect on the nervous system, resulting in stimulation of the 12 nervous system, resulting in a progression from agitation to 13 tremors and to ultimately convulsions if the level is above 14 the threshold or at the threshold, and it does not produce Is changes in memory or other changes within the brain . ' 16 4 Does any symptom of chlordane exposure occur outside the 17 context of an oncoming convulsion? 18 MR . WOOLF : Objection . 19 THE COURT : Overruled . 20 L No . it does not . 21 (By Mr . Beyer :) Based on your knowledge, your researelt 22 and your experience, do you have an opinion to a reasonable 23 degree of scientific certainty as to whether chlordane 24 exposure to chlordane or haptachlor can cause fevers? 25 MR. WOOLF- Objection . 1353 THE COURT : Overruled . 2L 3 Yes, I have an opinion . Chlordane does not cause fevers . (By Mr . Beyer :) And could you tell us why you hold that 4 opinion, air? S A. Because, again, the effects are very specific of chlordane 6 in the brain, and it does not result in a change of the 7 temperature of the body . It results in a stimulation of the 8 brain, which results in agitation or can result in agitation, 9 tremors and ultimately convulsions . It does not affect the 10 temperature of the body . 11 9 Do you have an opinion, on the same basis and to the same 12 degree of certainty, as to whether exposure to chlordane or 13 heptachlor has any known effect on the bladder or the urinary 14 tract? 15 MR . WOOLF : Objection . 16 THE COURT : Overruled . 17 Why don't we do this : Why don't we just read off 18 all this table that you want to and just let him make one 19 answer as to all, if the same answer affects all, or 20 distinquishr if there's some left out? 21 MR . BEYER : All right . 22 THE COURT : Then we won't have to repeat the 23 MR. BEYER : Could I -- I do it 24 THE COURT : -- the litany that goes with the answer 25 or with the question . 1354 MR . BEYER : Could I take each plaintiff I 2 individually, Your Honor? 3 THE COURT : All right . 4 BY MR. BEYER : 5 Doctor, have you been consulted by medical doctors in 6 cases of alleged poisonings by chlordane or heptachlor? 7 L Yes, I have . 8 THE COURT : Has he what? I'm sorry . 9 MR . BEYER: I'm sorry . Been consulted by medical 10 doctors . 11 BY MR . BEYER : 12 Q6 Do you provide that consultation as part of your regular I 13 14 Yes . As part of my normal practice and duty within the is medical center, I provide consultation to the emergency room 16 at our university hospital, as well as other emergency rooms, 17 the information being provided or the technical advice being 18 that certain levels produce certain things, and I provide 19 knowledge and information about the levels -- the threshold 20 levels which are required to produce those effects and what 21 the effects are likely to be . 22 96 Suppose a doctor told you that he had a patient who 23 was complaining to him of nausea, diarrhea* a feeling that 24 she can't catch her breath, dizziness# headaches, weaknessi, 25 tingling, memory problems, lowered attention span, nexy usnem 1355 ringing in the ears, a rash which was treated and cured, an 2 inability to sleep, burning in her chest# wart-like things 3 growing on her skin, and an inability to urinater and 4 suppose you were also told that this person had blood levels 5 of heptachlorepoxide of 3 .2 parts per billion and of 6 trans-nonachlor of .5 parts per billion . 7 Based on your research, your training and your 8 experience,, do you have an opinion to a reasonable degree of 9 scientific certainty as to whether these symptoms are the result of poisoning by or exposure to chlordane or heptachlor? MR. WOOLF : Objection . THE COURT : Overruled . 13 L Yes, I do . 14 (By Mr . Beyer :) And what is that opinion,, sir? is L My opinion is that chlordane cannot cause those effects . 16 % And what is it about the blood levels that contributes 17 to that opinion? is The blood levels are low. 19 In the normal population, the levels would range 20 from one to 24 parts per billion . 21 So these blood levels would actually be exceedingly 22 low forthe normal population . 23 Ank what in it about the symptoms that leads you to 24 conclude that this in not a case of overexposure to chlordane? 25 L The symptoms are not compatible with the known effects of 1356 I chlordane . Chlordane does not produce those symptoms . 2 Q. And suppose a doctor told you he had a patient who 3 complained of diarrhea after eating, soreness of the back, 4 logs and hips, being short-tempered, having headaches and fever and exhaustione and a rash in the armpit# and memory lo 6 and had blood levels of 3 parts per billion of heptachlorepox 7 and one part per billion of trans-nonachlor . 8 On the same basis and to the same degree of scienti 9 certainty, do you have an opinion as to whether that would 10 have been caused by exposure to or poisoning by chlordane or 11 heptachlor? 12 MR . WOOLF : Objection . 13 THE COURT : Overruled . 14 L Yes, I do . is a (By Mr . Beyer :) And what is that opinion, air? 16 L My opinion is that chlordane could not cause those 17 effects . is Q. All right . And what is it about the blood levels that 19 leads you to that conclusion? 20 L Again, those blood levels are very low. 21 The normal population will range between one and 22 24 parts per billion . 23 So the one part per billion, for example, is at 24 the lower end of the normal for the basic U . S . population . 25 4 And what is it about the symptoms that leads you to that 1357 I conclusion, sir? 2 L The symptoms are not compatible with the known effects 3 of chlordane . Chlordane does not produce those symptoms . 4 06 Suppose a doctor said to you, sir, that he had a patient who was complaining of headaches and difficulty concentrating 6 on his schoolwork, one episode of talking jibberish on the 7 telephone, and a transient lose of vision on one side of his 8 right eye . 9 Do you have an opinion to a reasonable degree of 10 medical certainty as to whether that would have been caused 11 by chlordane or heptachlor? 12 MR. WOOLF : Objection . 13 THE COURT : Overruled . 14 L Yesr I do . is Q, (By Mr . Beyer :) And what's that opinion, sir? 16 L my opinion is that it would not be caused by chlordane . 17 Chlordane does not produce those effects . 18 01 And if you were consulted by a doctor who said he had 19 a patient who complained of headaches and a vision problem 20 which was fixed by getting glasses, and having a persistent 21 cough and the feeling of burning in the nose and who had 22 2 .6 parts per billion of heptachlorepoxide in her blood and 23 no detectable trans-nonachlor, would you have an opinion an 24 to whether those symptoms were caused by exposure to chlorda 25 or heptachlor? 1358 I L Yes, I would . 2 06 3L And what would that be, air? my opinion would be that chlordane could not cause those 4 symptoms . Q. And if you were consulted by a doctor who said that he 6 had a patient who complained of headaches and occasional 7 nocturnal leg cramps and a rash, and who had 2 .9 parts per 8 billion of heptachlorepoxide in his blood and one part per 9 billion of trans-nonachlor in his blood, based on the same 10 knowledge, research and experience, and to the same degree of 11 scientific certainty, would you have an opinion as to whether 12 those symptoms were caused by exposure to chlordane or 13 heptachlor? 14 MR . WOOLF : objection . 15 THE COURT : Overruled . 16 Yes, I would . 17 (By Mr . Beyer :) And what would that opinion be? 18 L my opinion would be that chlordane could not cause those 19 effects of those symptoms . 20 4 And what in it# air, about the levels in the blood that leads you to that conclusion? 22 L Again, those levels are low, the normal being from one 23 to 24 parts per billion . 24 MR . BEYFR: All right. Thank youl~ sir .~~ 2S No further questions . 1359 THE COURT : All right, cross-examine . 2 You folks need a recess? Can we hold out for a 3 okay . 4 CROSS-EXAKIKATION 6 BY MR . WOOLF : 70 Dr . Harbison, you don't got -- it's not possible to got 8 a rash from skin contact with chlordane? 9L No, sir . 10 Q. It doesn't produce irritation of the skin or the eyes? 11 L It produces irritation of the eyes if you spill the 12 liquid into the eyes, and with prolonged contact of the 13 liquid, it can produce irritation of the skin . 14 0 What's the difference between irritation of the skin and Is a skin rash? I L irritation is a reddening of the skin ; a rash is the 17 devel~~Pment of bumps and the actual change in the morphology 18 or the character of the skin . 19 a, Doctor, I wan looking over your curriculum vitae and I 20 see a lot of publications about psychedelic drugs . 21~ That's an area you published a lot in# right? 22 L I have published some papers in that area ; yes, sir . 23 4 How many? 24 Nost of your publications have been on psychedelic 25 drugs ; isn't that true? 1360 I L I don't believe that's true . 2a Wellf it's fair to say a lot of them have been ; isn't 3 that correct? 4 4 And some of them have been on addiction ; isn't that 6L 7 That is correct . That's another major category of your publications? 8 I believe I only really have one publication on 9 addiction . 10 4 What's the difference between a publication and an 11 abstract? 12 L An abstract is a presentation that is given before a 13 group of scientists at a professional meeting . 14 Q. That's not a publication that's been accepted by a peer is review journal, then? W0 16 L Yes . All of those are essentially published in the bi 5 17 professional journal of the society at which they have been z 18 presented . For example# the presentations at the Society of 19 Toxicology are published in the Journal of Toxicology and 20 Applied Pharmacology . 21 OL And that one preceding thirteen years ago, is that the 22 only publication you've had that is on chlordane? 23 L No, sir . 24 01 How many others have you had on chlordane? 25 L I would estimate that there are a few others . I can't 1361 1 recall the exact nunber . 2 (I When were they? 3 The exact year? 4 Approximately . S X Oh,, I believe it probably would've been 1972, '73, 175 . 6 (X Are they publications or are they abstracts? 7 k No . air . That would be a publication . 8 OL Are theylisted on your curriculum vitae? 9 I believe so . 10 Do you have a copy with you? 11 L No . air . 12 (I 13 14 is L You've got one on NComparative Toxicology ." I assume that talks, at least in partp on chlordane Is that what you're referring to? Yes, air . 16 OL Any others? 17 L 18 OL 19 L I believe that there are others . I can't recall them. YouOre not a medical doctor ; is that correct? No . air. 20 Q. No . it's not correct ; or, yes, it's correct, you're not 21 a medical doctor? 22 L I am a board certified toxicologist . I am not a 23 physician . 24 Q. You're not licensed to diagnose and treat patients# are 2S you? 1362 IL No, I'm not . 2 When you did the research that you alluded to about 3 chlordane and heptachlor, that was on rodents? 4L Yes, air . s And from that, you can generalize to the human health 6 effects of chlordane? 7L The study is what it was . It was a study of rodents . 8 It's part of the scientific literature . it's not the -- 9 it's not the pivotal publication upon which I base my opinio 10 q The question is whether you can generalize or extrapola 11 from the effects of chlordane and heptachlor on rodents to 12 the effects of chlordane and heptachlor on humans . 13 MR . BEYER : objection, Your Honor . There's no 14 testimony that that's what he's doing . As a matter of fact, is he denied it . I 16 MR . WOOLF : I'm asking him -- 17 THE COURT : Well# he's answered the question . He 18 said that's a part of the study on which he bases his 19 conclusion . 20 MR . WOOLF : I understand that, Your Honor . What 21 I'm trying to point out is that it's not responsive to the 22 question . He says part of it . I'm just asking him if he 23 can extrapolate . 24 That is a simple yes or no question . 25 THE COURT : Welle you can say yes or no and answer 1363 I it more fully . 2 I don't know exactly what he means by extrapolate 3 from one thing to another, but perhaps you do. 4 THE WITNESS : I don't believe I cab answer it yes or no . I think it depends on the substance that we're talks 6 about . Generally, it is very difficult to extrapolate from 7 animals to man. 8 BY MR . WOOLr : 9 Q. Welle I did limit my question to chlordane and heptachlor 10 Doctor . 11 L ror chlordane and heptachlor? 12 Q. 13 & Yes . Basically the reason that animals are used is to 14 determine the mechanism by which the substances produce Is effects in the biological system . The ultimate evaluation 16 of the effects of these substances on humans is basically and 17 best derived from human experience . 18 Q. Let's try it again. 19 Can you extrapolate from the effects of chlordane 20 and heptachlor on rodents to the effects on humans? 21 WT 22 MR . BEYER : Your Honor# that's been -THE COURT : All right . Let's move let's move 23 on . You've asked that question . 24 MR . WOOLr : I respectfully suggest, Your Honort tha 25 THE COURT : All right . 1364 I BY MR . WWLF : 2 96 Keptachlorepoxide is a metabolite of heptachlor ; isn't 3 that right? 4 A- It can be . It's one of the metabolites of heptachlor ; isn't that 6 correct? 7L 8q Yen, air, it can be . And it's more toxic than heptachlor itselft isn't it? 9 L No, it's not . 10 Q. You know that chlordane and heptachlor bioaccumulate 11 in the fatty tissue? 12 L Heptachlor and chlordane do not bioaccumulate in the 13 fatty tissue . 14 Q, They're not lipophilic? 15 L Yes, they are . 16 Q, That doesn't mean that they accumulate in the fatty 17 tissue? ig L It means that at some time they're present in the fatty 19 tissue, but essentially they are transformed by the body and 2o eliminated from the fatty tissue . 21, QL Well, are their metabolites do their metabolites 22 bioaccumulate? 23 L No, they do not . 24 Q, And if we brought another toxicologist in here to say 2S that they bioaccumulated, he would be wrong, in your opinion ; 1365 I is that correct? 2L 3 Yes, sir . THE COuRT : wellt you know, the doctor said what 4 his belief is and the jury would have to make a determination 5 whether he was right or wrong, if another one was brought in . 6 BY MR. WOOLF- 74 Let me read you a list of symptoms of chlordane intoxica 8 and ask if you agree with whether or not those are symptoms 9 of chlordane intoxication . 10 Lot me just try and short-circuit this by saying 11 you've already said hyperexcitability is one ; isn't that 12 correct? 13 L That is correct . 14 4 And tremors are another, right? Is L Yes, sir . 16 Q, And convulsions? 17 L That is correct . 18 Q. 19 L How about eventual paralysis? Is this from inhalation or from the drinking of chlordan 20 Q. 21 Does it matter? Yes# it does . 22 23 L All right . How about the drinking of vhlordane? Paralysis can result from the convulsive episode if 24 one convulses to such an extent that it results in an oxygen 2S deficiency for some prolonged period of time . 1366 I4 All right . So you get paralysis -- so ultimately you 2 can get paralysis from ingestion -- oral ingestion of 3 chlordane ; is that correct? 4L No . The paralysis would actually occur as a result of S the convulsions . 64 All right . You can have chronic intoxication of 7 chlordaner can't you? 8L 9 I don't know -THE COURT : What kind of intoxication? 10 MR . WOOLF : Chronic, Your Honor . 11 THE COURT : Chronic intoxication? 12 THE WITNESS : I'm sorryp I don't know what chronic 13 intoxication means . 14 BY MR . WOOLF : is QL Well, let me ask you if the following symptoms are 16 symptoms of intoxication from chlordane : Loss of appetite? 17 From the drinking or from the inhalation? is A symptom of intoxication by whatever route . 19 L No, sir . 20 1X Loss of weight? 21 L No . 22 Q. Headaches? 23 24 0. No . Nausea, I think you already said, is a symptom ; isn't 2S that correct? 1367 IL 2 No, I did not . Is it a symptom? 3 A. No, it's not . 4 And vomiting? L No . 6 Q. But you did say that chlordane is an irritant to the 7 skin and eyes ; isn't that correct? 8L It can be . 9 Q. And what about the throat and lungs? 10 L It can be . 11 Q. Are you aware that all the symptoms that I read to you 12 appear on a Velsicol document as being symptoms of 13 intoxication of chlordane? 14 MR. BEYER : Objection# Your Honor . The document is is not identified . He's asking the witness if he's aware of 16 some document that he hasn't shown the witness . Whether it's 17 in evidence or not, we don't know . 18 I object, Your Honor . 19 MR. WOOLF : I'd be pleased -20 THE COURT : Well# we have some of them in evidencer 21 as I understand it . 22 MR. BEYER : Your Honor, that document is not in 23 evidence . 24 THE COURT : The label? 2S MR. BEYER : That's not the label, Your Honor . 1368 I THE COURT : Ohl I thought 2 MR. BEYER : That's a document that is no in 3 evidence . 4 THE COURT : Well, he asked him about -- about the 5 label . 6 if the label's in evidence, show him the label . 7 MR . WOOLF : But, Your Honor, he's correct, itle 8 not the label ; it*s the document Mr . 9 THE COURT: Weld, you'asked him about "label .N 10 MR. WOOLF : Excuse me, your Honor . 11 BY MR . WOOLF : 12 Q, You consult for chemical companies, don't you? 13 L I consult for chemical companies as well as others 14 other agencies . is Q6 All right . You consult for Occidental oil, right? 16 L That is correct . 17 01 Shell Development Corporation? 18 L That is correct . 19 Q. Petrolite Corporation? 20 L That is correct? 21 QL Monsanto Corporation? 22 L Yes# air . 23 g Sanitary Corporation of Americk? 24 L Yes, air . 2S 4 Ethyl Corporation? 1369 I L Yes, air . 2 Texaco? 3 L Yes . 40 Hooker Chemical? SL Yes . 6 Q~ In fact, you're consulting about Hooker Chemical was 7 the health effects of Love Canal ; isn't that correct? 8L That is correct . 94 Chemical Manufacturers Association? 10 L That is correct . 11 96 American Petroleum Insitute? 12 L That is correct . 13 4 14 L IBM? That is correct . is 06 16 L 17 % 18 L 19 Q, 20 L Exxon? That is correct . Dow Chemical? Yes . And, of course, you consult for velsicolf right? That is correct. Your publication on the uComparAtive Effects of 22 Pesticidean that included chlordanet was that on humans or 23 animals? 24 L 2S That was rodents . MR . WOOLF* Your Honor, I'm going to move to strike 1370 I the witness' testimony on the grounds that he has been 2 unwilling to state that he can generalize from animal effects 3 of chlordane and heptachlor on animals and that his research 4 has been on animals and he has not identified any research S on humans . 6 THE COURT : Notion denied . 7 All right . Any further examination of this -8 MR. GORRY : What was the -9 Motion denied? 10 THE COURT : Yes, air . Any further -11 MR . BREEDEN : No, air . 12 THE COURT : May this witness be excused and free 13 to leave the courthouse? 14 MR. BEYER : Yesp Your Honor . is THE COURT : All right . Doctorr we've separated 16 the witnesses so one witness won't be influenced by what 17 another one may have seen# heard or said in the courtroom . 18 So don't discuss the case with any potential witness until 19 the case is over . 20 THE WITNESS : Yes, air . 21 THE COURT : Thank you very much, air . You're free 22 to leave the courthouse . 23 THE WITNESS : Thank you . 24 (Witness excused .) 25 1371 I THE COURT : All right . Members of the juryl let's 2 take a five-minute recess . 3 (Thereupon, the jury retired to the jury room at 4 3 :35 p .m .) 6 PROCEEDINGS OUT OF THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY 7 8 THE COURT : How many witnesses is the defendant 9 Velsicol going to have? 10 MR. BEYER : Well, Your Honor, we find ourselves 11 in kind of an embarrassing position . 12 THE COURT : Not again today, boy . If you are not 113 ready to go forward, your case is over . 1 1 MR . BEYER: Well, Your Honor, we could be concluded is I by -16 Your Honore we expected a lengthier 17 cross-examination . 18 THE COURT : I can't help that . I've told you alle 19 at the beginning of this case, we're not going to have any 20 delays between witnesses . 21 if you have no evidence to present, you close your 22 case . 23 MR . GORRY : Your Honor, we have two specifically, 24 we have two other out-of-town, out-of-state witnesses, and 25 this -- 1372 I THE COURT : If they're not here, your case is over,1 2 3 I've told you all time and again that we're not 4 waiting for witnessesF have your witnesses 6re . Last night I gave you a break . I'm not going to 6 give you another one . 7 All right . Is that the end of your evidence? 8 mR . GoRRY : well, I'll have to talk with my 9 I co-counsel. 10 THE COURT : All right . We'll take a five-minute 11 12 (The Court recessed at 3 :37 p .m . and the Court 13 reconvened at 3 :50 p .m ., and the following proceedings 14 occurred out of the presence of the jury :) is 16 MR . GORRY : Your Honor, we do not have any witnesses 17 that we can go forward with at this time . 18 I do want to make for the record, though, this 19 indication of what I believe to be the facts . 20 I respectfully would disagree with the Court that 21 we were given a break yesterday . 22 THE COURT* You certainly were . 23 MR . GORRY : Well, 24 THE COURT : I quit I quit early because you said 25 you didn't have any witnesses . 1373 I MR . GORRY : Your Honor, on Wednesday, in chambers -2 and because it probably wasn't taken down -- it was 3 understood -- at least we believed it to have been 4 understood that, in projecting the case, the defendant would S start its defense on Friday, and so late yesterday afternoon, 6 as per the prior understanding, we were not ready to start 7 the case ; but, as I say, that had I think it was 8 Wednesday -- it was either Tuesday it was Wednesday -- 9 in a chAm rs conference that that had been discussed . 10 I would just like the record to be clear that the 11 plaintiff has had six days in which to put on its case . 12 By my very quick count, there was some eighteen 13 witnesses . 14 Today is Friday . We did start the case today at 15 nine o'clock a .m . We did put on four out-of-town expert 16 witnesses, three of whom were not only out-of-town but 17 out-of-state . 18 We do have additional expert witnesses from out of 19 state, and we just were not able to have them here today on 20 Friday in what we considered to be prudent scheduling, and 21 that's the situation . 2Z THE COURT : Well, you don't set the schedule of 23 the Court, Mr . Gorry . The Court sets the schedule, and I've 24 let you all know that I wasn't going to let this case go as 25 long as you expected it to go, that I had a crowded docket . 1374 I I've got a lot of other things to do and I just can't waste 2 a day, I've got too much to do, and I thought I let everybod. 3 know that this case was going to go just as rapidly as I 4 could push it, and I'm confident I let you ..all know that and 5 you had absolutely no right to set the schedule of this 6 case or to schedule your witnesses in accordance with your 7 views . You're supposed to schedule it in accordance with 8 my views . 9 MR. GORRY : Well, Your Honorl we just do the best 10 we can and these people do cost money and their schedules are 11 busy as well . 12 THE COURT : Well, I know ; but# you know, you all 13 have taken the position that you're willing to proceed with 14 this case at any costp and that's the cost that you've decide is you're going to undertake . 16 All right, Mr . Breeden, will you have any 17 testimony? 18 MR. BREEDEN : I'm in the same position he's in in 19 that regard . I have none here today . I had a couple coming 20 on Monday, but they're also coining from out of town . 21 I've got a motion, if indeed the Court is going 22 to compel them to rest ; but other than that,, I donOt have any 23 other testimony at this time . 24 THE COURT : I'm just outraged about the conduct of 2S I sel in this caser when I told you all from the very outset th 1375 I this case had to move along and that you all have chosen to 2 schedule witnesses in such a way that I'm wasting a good 3 hour and a half of time that could be used that could have 4 gotten rid of another witness . S MR . GORRY : Your Honor, we, last evening -6 THE COURT : I've got stuff waiting for me in there 7 that's up to the coiling . 8 MR . GORRY : Judge# I understand, but last evening, 9 when the Court set this case at nine o'clock, we did try 10 to call one of our expert witnesses in Athens, Georgia . He 11 couldn't get here today . We had told him Monday before, and 12 that's -13 THE COURT : You don't have any right to tell any 14 witness to be in this court on any day except the first day 15 of trial . That's when they're supposed to be here . And we 16 get to them just as fast as we can. 17 Mr . Gorry, you practiced in this court long enough 18 to know that we don't sit around and wait for the pleasure of 19 witnesses . We try the cases and we try them as fast as we 20 can because we've got such a backlog of work here . 21 MR. GORRY : Judge, again, with all respect, I just 22 don't-feel that I could have had expert witnesses sitting 23 here seven, eight, ten days . 24 THE COURT : Welle you're going to the next time, 2S I'll tell you, because I'm just not going to brook this sort 1376 I I of thing . 2 I'm just as sorry as I can bet butt YOU knOwt 3 MR . GORRY : Wellp -- 4 THE COURT : -- you've decided, if you're going to defend the case, you defend the case, and you defend it just 6 as fast as the Court can properly move you along with -7 welve given you a full opportunity to be heardl but I just -8 we just can't afford to sit around here and waste time ; there 9 are too many other people waiting to get the ear of the 10 court . 11 MR . BREEDEN- If Your Honor please, depending on 12 what the Court does with this -- it may be entirely a moot 13 question -- but we do have some medical records, of which we 14 have certified copiest that we wanted to put in evidence here is if the Court is going to preclude any further 16 evidencet the certified copies that we wish to have produced 17 in a the record and which we have here are not going to be 18 material because we won't have the witnesses here to discuss 19 those records, but we would like to tender medical records, 20 which we have subpoenaed from the University of,Virginia, 21 from Waynesboro Hospitalt from the Veterans Hospital, 22 and from MCV . 23 There againt we have custodians we have on subpoena 24 to be here in case the Court will not admit the certified 2S copies that we have, but that is a matter that needs to be 1377 I addressed . 2 THE COURT : Well, the rule is that medical records 3 don't go to the jury room . They're only heie for .doctors -4 MR. BREEDEN : Only for THE COURT : -- and for the professional people to 6 7 MR . BREEDEN : That's right . well, that's what 8 they're here for . I have them and I would like for 9 Mr . DiMuro to look at them . 10 MR . DiMURO : Maybe I -- I don't want to got in 11 the middle of the Court's discussion with Mr . Gorry, but I 12 understood that the Norfolk neurologist, according to the 13 witness list we got yesterdaye was the fifth witness for 14 today . is 16 17 18 19 And is he not coming? MR . GORRY : He's not coming . THE COURT : Where is he? In he out of town? MR. GORRY: No . air, he's not out of town . THE COURT : Why don't you call him up? 20 MR . GORRY : Because we made a decision that we are 21 not going to offer him as a witness, Your Honor . 22 THE COURT : How many witnesses do you have left? 23 MR. GORRY : We would offer the one foundation 24 witness for that 1980 MMPI that was discussed ; we would offer 25 a psychologist, and we would offer a residue testing expert . 1378 I So there's two expertst plus the foundation witness 2 for that report that was referred to earlier that Mr . Breeden 3 was talking about . 4 MR . BEYER : Kay we confer for just a moment, S Your Honor? 6 THE COURT : All right . Well, in any event, bring 7 the jury in,, Marshal . No sense in having them sit back there when we're not going to get to them one way or the other . 9 (Thereupon, the jury returned to the jury box at 10 3 :58 p .m .) 11 12 THE COURT : Members of the jury, I regret to tell 13 you that we're not going to be able to get any further today 14 on this case . I hate to lose the remaining hour or hour and 15 a half that would be available todayr but we're just not 16 able to get any further today with the caseg and so I can 17 excuse you until Monday morning . 19 I am hopeful that we will conclude the evidence no 19 later than Monday, possibly Tuesdayr and we hope to get the 20 case in your hands no later than Wednesday . 21 I tell you this as a projection because I know 22 that you have your own plans, but if something goes haywire 23 and I'm not righte don't string me up . Just say that "The 24 old guy did the best he could ." That's all I can say to you . 25 And I hope you all have a real pleasant weekend. 1379 I And remember all my admonitions I gave you before . 2 Yes, air . Did you have something you want to ask? 3 A JUROR: What time, Your Honor? 4 THE COURT : Welll you know, I'd like to start at s nine, if you all can . I think the earlier 6 Having started you at nine today and then find 7 out that we're not in a position to finish up the day makes 8 it a little difficult for me to impose upon you again . 9 If you're willing to be here at nine, that will 10 be fine, if you are . 11 okay ; all right . We'll see you at nine o*clock, 12 then, Monday, and you all have a nice weekend . 13 (Thereupon, the jury retired from the courtroom 14 at 4 :00 p .m.) is 16 THE COURT : Well, if I hold this record open for 17 you until Monday, will you be able to finish your evidence 18 Monday? 19 MR . GORRY : Yes, sir . 20 THE COURT : All right . Nowl Mr . Breeden, that 21 means that you start with your evidence Monday and you have 22 your witnesses here Monday and, if possibler I'm going to 23 try and conclude all of the evidence Monday . 24 MR . BREEDEN : Yes, air . 25 THE COURT : All right . We'll see you all Monday I nornLng . 2 (The Court adjourned at 4 :01 p .m .),., 4 1380 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 is 16 bi Uz 17 18 19 20 .21 IL 22 23 24 25 0~