Document Xz4Dr4L4pgVJGqmRwNQ6bgY4x

FILE NAME: Hercules Chemical (HERC) DATE: 2011 Nov 16 DOC#: HERC035 DOCUMENT DESCRIPTION: Legal - Deposition of Kendall Watson Patterson KENDALL WATSON PATTERSON Exhibit 46 BEFORE THE ASBESTOS MDL PRE-TRIAL JUDGE NO. 2010-50588 Page 1 MARTHA ANN GENSLER, Individually )IN THE DISTRICT COURT and as Personal Representative of ) the Estate of JOHN EDWARD GENSLER, )OF HARRIS COUNTY, TEXAS Deceased, Plaintiffs, vs . ASBESTOS COMPANIES, et al., Defendants. )11TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT Transferred From NO. DC10-08454-D JOHN EDWARD GENSLER and )IN THE DISTRICT COURT MARTHA GENSLER, Plaintiffs, ) )OF DALLAS COUNTY, TEXAS vs. ASBESTOS COMPANIES, et a l ., Defendants. I ) )95TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT **************** ORAL DEPOSITION OF KENDALL WATSON PATTERSON NOVEMBER 16, 2011 HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM KENDALL WATSON PATTERSON Page 2 1 ORAL DEPOSITION OF KENDALL WATSON PATTERSON, 1 2 produced at the instance of the Plaintiffs, and duly sworn, 2 3 was taken m the above-styled and numbered cause on the 3 4 16th day of November, 2011, from 10 07 a m to 1 33 p m 4 5 before JEAN B SPEIGHTS, RMR, RPR, CCR, a Notary Public in 5 6 and for the Commonwealth of Virginia, reported by machine 6 7 shorthand, at the Omni Hotel & Resorts, 100 South 12th 7 8 Street, Richmond, Virginia, 23219, pursuant to Notice 8 9 and/or the provisions stated on the record or attached 9 10 hereto 10 11 11 12 12 13 13 14 14 15 15 16 16 17 17 18 18 19 19 20 20 21 21 22 22 23 23 24 24 25 25 Page 3 1 I-N-D-E-X 2 PAGE 3 APPEARANCES.............................. 4-6 4 EXHIBITS .................................. 7 5 PROCEEDINGS ............................... 8 6 7 WITNESS. KENDALL WATSON PATTERSON 8 9 DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. COTTEN.......... 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 89 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 2 (Pages 2 to 5) Page 4 A-P-P-E-A-R-A-N-C-E-S FOR THE PLAINTIFFS, MR. CHAD COTTEN Baron & Budd, PC 3102 Oak Lawn Avenue, Suite 1100 Dallas, TX 75219 Phone: (866) 844-4556 COUNSEL FOR MR. KENDALL W. PATTERSON MR. RORY FITZPATRICK Cetrulo & Capone, LLP Two Seaport Lane Boston, MA 02210 Phone: (617)217-5500 (Appearance by telephone) FOR THE DEFENDANT, The Dow Chemical Company MS. AMY L. MACCHERONE Cotten, Schmidt & Abbott, LLP 650 Poydras Street, Suite 2810 New Orleans, LA 70130 Phone: (504) 568-9393 A-P-P-E-A-R-A-N-C-E-S (Appearance by telephone) FOR THE DEFENDANT, Linton Carbide MR BRAD ROBINSON DeHay & Elhston, LLP 3500 Bank of America Plaza, 901 Mam Street Dallas, TX 75202 Phone (214)210-2426 Page 5 (Appearance by telephone) FOR THE DEFENDANT, Hercules, Incorporated, Champlain Cable Corporation, Ashland, Inc MS PAMELA J WILLIAMS DeHay & Elhston, LLP 3500 Bank of America Plaza, 901 Main Street Dallas, TX 75202 Phone (214)210-2449 (Appearance by telephone) FOR THE DEFENDANT, Crane Co MR MICHAEL RAMIREZ K&L Gates 1717 Mam Street, Suite 2800 Dallas, TX 75201 Phone (214)939-5500 HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM KENDALL WATSON PATTERSON 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 LO LI L2 L3 L4 L5 L 6 L7 L 8 L9 20 21 22 23 U 2b 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 6 A -P-P-E -A -R -A -N -C -E -S 1 2 (Appearance by telephone) 3 FOR TH E D E F E N D A N T , Guard-Line, Inc. 4 MR. MARK D. VANCLEAVE 5 D ogan & W ilkinson 6 734 D elm as A venue 7 Pascagoula, M S 39568 8 P h o n e:(2 8 1 )3 0 3 -8 8 0 0 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 7 E -X -H -I-B -I-T -S 1 2 Patterson Deposition Exhibits Page 3 4 E X H IB IT 5 NO I -- PLAINTIFF'S FIRST AM ENDED NOTICE OF INTENTION TO 6 TAKE THE ORAL DEPOSITION OF KENDALL PATTERSON WITH SUBPOEN a 7 DUCES TECUM 50 8 NO 2 -- OBJECTIONS TO NOTICE 50 9 NO 3 -- BIOGRAPHY OF KENDALL W PATTERSON 50 10 N O 4 -- JA N U A RY 15, 1974, M EM O TO A LL E N G IN EER IN G 11 DIVISION SUPERINTENDENTS FROM H J DUCOTE 50 12 NO 5 -- HAVEG INDUSTRIES, INC , M EM O TO H DUDLEY BARTON 13 FROM EDW ARD C PAINTER 74 14 NO 6 -- CONFIDENTIAL J-M DOCUM ENT 108 15 NO 7 -- SW EN SO N R EQ U ESTS FO R P R O D U C TIO N #3 142 16 NO 8 -- CHEMTITE DOCUMENT 145 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3 (Pages 6 to 9) Page 8 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S KENDALL WATSON PATTERSON, having been first duly sworn, called as a witness on behalf of the Plaintiffs, testified as follows: EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFF BY MR. COTTEN Q Sir, can you state your name for the record, please? MR. FITZPATRICK: Excuse me. Just before we get started, Chad, one more thing Pam Williams IS - - MR. COTTEN On the phone9 MR. FITZPATRICK- Yes, and she will be appearing and representing the witness, although I'm -- and the Defendants -- I'm here on behalf of Mr. Patterson. MR. COTTEN- Okay. We'll straighten that out. Let's get him sworn in. THE WITNESS. My name is Kendall Watson Patterson. BY MR. COTTEN Q Mr. Patterson, my name's Chad Cotten. A Yes, sir Page 9 Q I represent Mrs. Gensler in this case. I'm going to be asking you some questions. First of all, just so we're all on the same page here, or as close to the same page as we can get, you have an attorney with you here today, Mr. Fitzpatrick, correct? A That's correct. Q Is he your personal attorney? In other words, is he representing you personally? MR. FITZPATRICK No, I represent Hercules; I represent Ashland; I represent Champlain Cable MR. COTTEN: Okay MR. FITZPATRICK: And Mr Patterson has been designated under your --let me see --I get mixed up with my state rules --199, Person Most Knowledgeable. MS WILLIAMS. That's correct, Rory. MR. FITZPATRICK' So I'm representing him in that capacity MS. WILLIAMS: And, Chad, it's my understanding that Mr Patterson has been designated as a Rule 199 witness for Champlain Cable and Hercules, Incorporated, but not for Ashland. MR COTTEN' Okay I understand. HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM KENDALL WATSON PATTERSON Page 10 1 BY MR. COTTEN 1 2 Q Sir, are you employed today? 2 3 A I'm retired. 3 4 Q Where were you working when you retired? 4 5 A Hercules, Incorporated. 5 6 Q When did you start with Hercules, 6 7 Incorporated? 7 8 A May of 1968. 8 9 Q When did you retire? 9 10 A The end - last day of December in 2003 10 11 Q Do you understand that you're here today as 11 12 the representative of Hercules, Incorporated? 12 13 A I do. 13 14 Q And Champlain Cable Company? 14 15 A I do. 15 16 Q You're not here, though, for Ashland; is 16 17 that correct? 17 18 A That is correct 18 19 Q Okay. What's Ashland? 19 20 A Ashland was the successor company to 20 21 Hercules. They purchased Hercules 21 22 Q When did they purchase Hercules? 22 23 A November o f 2010 --n o ,'09 Justa 23 24 minute I'm sorry 24 25 MS. WILLIAMS: And, Chad, he's not here for 25 Page 11 1 Ashland, so I'm not sure how familiar he is with the 1 2 transactions involving Ashland's purchase of Hercules 2 3 So to that extent, you know, I guess you're welcome to 3 4 ask him a little bit about that But before you get too 4 5 much into Ashland I will start objecting 5 6 MR COTTEN Right There's one way to 6 7 find out how much he knows 7 8 BY MR COTTEN 8 9 Q Do you know what type of a transaction -- 9 10 by what type of transaction Ashland purchased Hercules? 10 11 In other words, was it a stock purchase? Was it an 11 12 asset purchase? Was it a merger, or do you know? 12 13 A It was a transaction with the assets - I 13 14 think it was an asset -- 14 15 THE WITNESS You'd call it an asset 15 16 purchase9 16 17 MR FITZPATRICK. I don't answer questions 17 18 BY MR COTTEN 18 19 Q You don't know? 19 20 A I have seen the document, 1 have read 20 21 through it, but I read through it for the term of when, 21 22 and details of what went 22 23 MR FITZPATRICK And let me just state for 23 24 the record that the transaction documentation has been 24 25 produced 25 4 (Pages 10 to 13) P ag e 12 MR. COTTEN: Okay MS WILLIAMS' And, Chad, there's been a deposition of John Riley taken in the Max Jones case, and that deposition, I believe, has been produced to you. But it addresses specifically the Hercules/Ashland relationship and addresses the documents that were a part o f that transaction. BY MR. COTTEN Q Okay. You started with Hercules, Inc., in 1968? A That's correct Q What was your position when you started? MR. FITZPATRICK: Let me interject for a minute He brought with him a CV which should make it easier for you to go through that. MR. COTTEN: All right. THE WITNESS. Here you go. (Document to Mr. Cotten.) BY MR COTTEN Q Okay. What did you start off with? A I started off as a Process Engineer in the Hopewell, Virginia, plant Q What does a Process Engineer do? A A sa chemical engineer I was working with the individual plant processes to improve various P age 13 aspects and various yields, quality, that sort of thing. Q You were at Hopewell, Virginia? A Yes. Q When you started? A That's correct Q And at the Hopewell, Virginia, plant, what kind of products was Hercules making? A A line of products developed from cellulose. Q Okay. You stayed there until 1973 in Hopewell, Virginia; is that right? A That is correct Q And then you went to be the Technical Assistant to the Director of Operations of Coatings and Specialty Products, in Wilmington, Delaware? A That is correct. Q Okay. What are the coatings and specialty products? What does that mean? A That was a department in Hercules that had over six manufacturing plants and they served the coatings industry They also made specialty products for a number of different industries. Q What are specialty products? What does that mean? A As differentiated from commodities, HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM KENDALL WATSON PATTERSON P ag e 14 1 specialties would be something that's a value-add, a 1 2 difficult product to make, truly a special --specialty 2 3 good. 3 4 Q Give me some examples of the specialty 4 5 products that Hercules made during the time you were 5 6 there in Wilmington, Delaware, from 1973 to '76. 6 7 A I'll give you a couple Additives that go 7 8 into making things thicker such as ice cream stabilizer; 8 9 other additives that went into paint to make it thicker; 9 10 other things that were used in the printing industry for 10 11 inks and to give them characteristics and properties. 11 12 We were selling properties 12 13 Q The headquarters for Hercules was in 13 14 Wilmington? 14 15 A That is correct. 15 16 Q Okay. Did they also have a manufacturing 16 17 plant there? 17 18 A Not o f our department, no 18 19 Q Okay. Was there any type of manufacturing 19 20 plant there associated with Hercules in Wilmington, 2 0 21 Delaware? 21 22 A The only one that was in the Wilmington 22 2 3 area was a wholly-owned subsidiary plant. That would be 23 24 Haveg Industries. 2 4 25 Q From 1973 to '76 did you visit this Haveg 25 P age 15 1 plant in Delaware? 1 2 A No. 2 3 Q Do you know what products they were making 3 4 at the Haveg plant there? 4 5 A Not at that time 5 6 Q Do you know now? 6 7 A I do. 7 8 Q What were they making? 8 9 A They were making anti-corrosion material 9 10 called Haveg, which was a product produced from resin 10 11 mixed with asbestos, and the product they made from it 11 12 was then manufactured into - by them - into pipe or 12 13 other pieces of chemical process equipment 13 14 Q Were they making anything else there? 14 15 A They had some other things that were not 15 16 connected to asbestos. Small things in the aerospace 16 17 industry. 17 18 Q You were the Technical Assistant to the 18 19 Director of Operations; who was the Director of 19 20 Operations? 20 21 A Dr. Robert Eyler, E-Y-L-E-R 21 22 Q When did you first hear about this case, 22 23 the Gensler case? 23 24 A About a month ago 24 25 Q What's your understanding of what this case 25 5 (Pages 14 to 17) Page 16 is about? MS WILLIAMS Objection, form What was your question, Chad9 I didn't hear it MR COTTEN I asked him what his understanding of what the case was about MS WILLIAMS Objection, form THE WITNESS The case is about exposure to asbestos, at least exposure by Mr Gensler, who was a pipe fitter BY MR COTTEN Q Do you know what he -- have you read his deposition testimony? A I have Q Do you know what heclaims exposure --do you know what products he claims exposed him to working with asbestos? A I do recall that There were products from insulation materials, there were products from gasket materials, and the Haveg product line of Chemtite was mentioned Q What's Chemtite? A Chemtite is a line of pipe that is made from asbestos and either phenolic resin or epoxy resin, depending on the type of Chemtite Q What type of asbestos is used? P ag e 17 A Crocidolite --sorry. Q It's okay. A Crocidolite blue asbestos paper Q How much crocidolite blue asbestos paper is used in Chemtite as a percentage of the overall pipe? MS. WILLIAMS' Object to form. THE WITNESS. 40 percent by weight. BY MR COTTEN Q When did Haveg start manufacturing Chemtite? A Haveg purchased the - Haveg Industries purchased the technology, the product name and some assets, some equipment in particular, know-how, from Johns-Manville in July of 1971 Q Haveg was a wholly-owned subsidiary of Hercules? A That is correct. Q Did Hercules purchase Haveg? A They did. Q From whom did they purchase it? A It was a public company at that time. Q When did they purchase it? A In May of 1964 Q Okay. So before Haveg started manufacturing Chemtite? HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM KENDALL WATSON PATTERSON P age 18 1 A Yes 1 2 Q Where did Haveg manufacture Chemtite from, 2 3 or where? That's a bad question, so let me ask it 3 4 again. 4 5 Where did Haveg manufacture Chemtite? 5 6 A At the Haveg plant in Marshallton, 6 7 Delaware. 7 8 Q Do you know whether or not any --whether 8 9 or not Haveg sold Chemtite pipes to the Dow Chemical 9 10 Company for use at its Freeport, Texas, division? 10 11 MS WILLIAMS' Object to form. 11 12 THE WITNESS: Is it my understanding that 12 13 they did. 13 14 BY MR. COTTEN 14 15 Q And how do you understand that? 15 16 A From Counsel, when I learned that - when 16 17 the - we're not disputing that there were sales during 17 18 that time period to that location. 18 19 Q Have you ever seen any documents? Sales 19 20 invoices -- 20 21 MS. WILLIAMS. Objection, form. 21 22 BY MR COTTEN 22 23 Q --of - from Haveg to Dow? 23 24 A No, I have not. 24 25 Q Why is there crocidolite in the Chemtite? 25 P age 19 1 MS WILLIAMS: Objection, form. 1 2 THE WITNESS: The purpose of the asbestos 2 3 in that product was to give it strength, give the pipe 3 4 strength. 4 5 BY MR. COTTEN 5 6 Q What was it used for, the Chemtite product? 6 7 A Either very corrosive, strong acids, one 7 8 type o f Chemtite pipe, and the other was used for 8 9 caustic materials of high Ph for different end-uses. 9 10 There were two types of Chemtite 10 11 Q What were the two types? 11 12 A Chemtite PB, which was used for acids, and 12 13 Chemtite EB, which was used for caustic solutions. 13 14 Q And both Chemtite PB and Chemtite EB, they 14 15 both contained asbestos? 15 16 A That is correct. 16 17 Q And it was crocidolite-asbestos? 17 18 A Yes, that is correct. 18 19 Q 40 percent of weight for both? 19 20 A Yes. 20 21 Q Okay. When did Haveg stop selling 21 22 Chemtite? 22 23 A Prior to 1980, in May - excuse me - it 23 24 could have been as early as 79 I don't know the exact 24 25 time. But it was before the sale m 1980 25 6 (Pages 18 to 21) Page 20 Q Did Haveg have manufacturing plants anywhere else except for Marshallton, Delaware? A Haveg Industries did, but the business we're talking about here, the Chemtite and the Haveg polymer, the Haveg resin products, did not have another location. Q Who is, or was, Edward Painter? A Edward Painter was a plant engineer who also had the job for a period as the Safety Coordinator. Q And who was he employed by? A He was employed by Haveg Industries at those jobs. Q Did you work, ever, with Mr. Painter? A No. Q Is he still living? A He is. Q Do you know where he lives? A Southern Delaware. Q Did Hercules have a Safety Department in the 1970s? A They did. Q Do you know, where was that department headquartered? A In Wilmington, Delaware. Corporate offices. Page 21 Q Do you know who is in charge of it? MS. WILLIAMS. Objection, form. THE WITNESS: During which time period9 BY MR. COTTEN Q 1970 --well, let's start with - well, let's go, 1971 to '78. A That would be Gil Cain, C-A-I-N. Q Okay. Did you do any work with anybody from the Hercules Safety Department during the time period of the 1970s? A Yes. Through my work with the Coatings and Specialty Products Department, yes Q Okay. What did you do with them? A The Hercules Safety Department assisted me in making sure the plant that I was in charge of starting up and finishing - the construction m Brunswick, Georgia - was correct and safe, and the designs were proper. Q Was Haveg ever cited by OSHA for any violations of the - any asbestos regulations during the 1970s? A I'm aware of a couple, yes MS WILLIAMS. Objection, form. BY MR COTTEN Q How many? HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM KENDALL WATSON PATTERSON Page 22 1 A I'm aware o f two times they were cited. I 1 2 think each notice had two citations. 2 3 Q What were the citations for? 3 4 MS WILLIAMS' Objection, form. 4 5 THE WITNESS' The first, as I recall, was 5 6 minor recordkeeping-type violations, and settled for 6 7 small money. The other one was two violations for -- 7 8 limits the concentration o f dust, fiber --asbestos 8 9 fibers above the recommended limits. So there were two 9 10 citations there on one visit. 10 11 BY MR. COTTEN 11 12 Q Do you know when those citations for 12 13 exceeding the dust limits were? 13 14 A The late '70s, but 1 don't recall a date. 14 15 Q You eventually became General Manager of 15 16 the Resins Division? 16 17 A That's correct. 17 18 Q What kind of products are resin products? 18 19 A They were a line o f products based on 19 20 additive-type o f resins, as opposed to resins for 20 21 construction or for injection moulding o f plastics, that 21 22 sort o f thing These resins were based on two lines of 22 23 chemistry: Rosin chemistry and Hydrocarbon resin 23 24 chemistry. 24 25 Q This Chemtite asbestos product we're 25 Page 23 1 talking about, was that a resin product? 1 2 MS WILLIAMS. Objection to form. 2 3 THE WITNESS' The material that wasn't 3 4 asbestos in Chemtite was resin, but it was not the type 4 5 of resin that was in the Resins Division that I was in 5 6 charge of. 6 7 BY MR. COTTEN 7 8 Q Okay. 8 9 A At all 9 10 Q Are you familiar with the manufacturing 10 11 process for Chemtite pipe? 11 12 A Yes. 12 13 Q At the manufacturing plant there, in 13 14 Marshallton, okay, was there an asbestos treating area? 14 15 A There was, but it wasn't for Chemtite. 15 16 Q Okay. What was the asbestos treating area? 16 17 A It was where the acid treated it for the 17 18 other types of Haveg material 18 19 Q What do you mean, the acid treated it? 19 20 What does that mean? 20 21 A 1 don't know the chemistry, exactly. I 21 22 haven't seen the write-up of the exact chemistry All I 22 23 know, it did use hydrochloric acid, but I don't know the 23 24 treatment and how it changed or affected the asbestos. 24 25 Q Has this come up before in other cases 25 7 (Pages 22 to 25) Page 24 where you've testified? A Not that one question. It came up with - a question --I think the last deposition, about that, yes. Q Okay. Did Haveg or Hercules ever conduct any dust monitoring on the cutting or fabrication of Chemtite pipe? A There were dust sampling in the area, but speaking o f the cutting o f pipe, no. Q Okay. When you're talking about dust sampling o f any area, what are you talking about? During the manufacturing process? A In the plant area. Q Okay. Where it's being made? A There were some dust studies that were in the environment o f the plant, yes. Q Okay. But in other words, that has nothing to do with fabricating the pipes, right? A No, no. Q And when I say "fabricating," you understand that I mean cutting, right? A That's correct. Q And you'd agree with me that when you're installing Chemtite, it's necessary, at times, to cut it, correct? Page 25 A At times it would require cutting, yes Q So Haveg or Hercules never conducted any type of dust monitoring, at any time, to determine the amount of dust that was created when someone would cut Chemtite pipe? MS WILLIAMS Objection, form Asked and answered THE WITNESS There weren't studies That's correct BY MR COTTEN Q Okay. Are you aware o f-w ell, let me ask you like this: What kind of customers was Haveg selling Chemtite pipe to? A Customers who had a need for very anti-corrosive type of pipe, because they would --the customers were using chemicals that were corrosive to mild steel or to cast iron or many of the metals So you wanted an anti-corrosive pipe, and it was a customer that, in general, was quite sophisticated Q Like chemical companies? A Yes, chemical companies Q Like Dow? A That's correct Q Dupont? MS WILLIAMS Objection HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM KENDALL WATSON PATTERSON Page 26 1 THE WITNESS: That type of company. 1 2 BY MR. COTTEN 2 3 Q AH right. DuPont's a Delaware company? 3 4 A It is. 4 5 Q You're familiar with DuPont? 5 6 A I am. 6 7 Q Okay. Did Haveg ever sell any Chemtite 7 8 pipe to DuPont? 8 9 MS. WILLIAMS: Objection, form. 9 10 THE WITNESS: I haven't seen that they did, 10 11 but I suspect. 11 12 BY MR COTTEN 12 13 Q Would it surprise you if they did? 13 14 A Would not surprise me 14 15 MS. WILLIAMS' Objection, form 15 16 BY MR COTTEN 16 17 Q Did Haveg ever conduct any type of 17 18 monitoring for the amount of asbestos dust released due 18 19 to the cutting of Haveg pipe? 19 20 A No. 20 21 Q And not one time ever? 21 22 A Not that I'm aware of. 22 23 MS WILLIAMS Objection. 23 24 BY MR. COTTEN 24 25 Q Have you --are you aware of any of your 25 P age 27 1 customers or any Haveg Chemtite customers who conducted 1 2 studies on the --or measured the amount of dust 2 3 released due to the cutting of Chemtite pipe? 3 4 A I have not come across or read or heard of 4 5 any customer that had such tests or data 5 6 Q Okay. Have you -- are you aware of any 6 7 customers of Haveg who conducted dust monitoring on the 7 8 cutting of Haveg pipe? 8 9 A I'm not 9 10 Q And you've never seen any documents that 10 11 show the results of the dust monitoring of cutting Haveg 11 12 pipe? 12 13 A Now, the customers, or anybody else9 13 14 Q Right. 14 15 A No, I have not 15 16 Q Have you seen the Johns-Manville dust 16 17 monitoring tests on Chemtite pipe that were done in the 17 18 1960s? 18 19 A I have not 19 20 MS WILLIAMS Form 20 21 BY MR COTTEN 21 22 Q Okay. Did you know that Johns-Manville had 22 23 conducted such tests? 23 24 A I had not heard that, no 24 25 Q Okay. When did Haveg do the area 25 8 (Pages 26 to 29) Page 28 monitoring to test for levels o f asbestos at their manufacturing plant? A You mean, the standard dust survey samples is what you're saying, picking-up-dust studies? Q Did they do both dust studies and standard survey? A I'm thinking it's the same thing. I think it's the same --same designations. Q Okay. Right. A The first one was done in '66. Q How many were done in 1966? A There was one survey over a couple of days, I think over maybe a week. Q When was the next survey done? A I'm aware o f the next one, 1968. Q And how many samples were taken then? A I'm not sure the total number of samples. Q And it was just area samples again? A I have not seen the tests. I have seen results, but I have not seen all the details o f how they ran all the tests. Q What about the next one, after 1968? MS. WILLIAMS: Objection, form. THE WITNESS: I don't know, the following. Page 29 BY MR. COTTEN Q Do you know whether it was the next year? Three years later? Five years later? A Well, I know that dust was getting a lot of attention by Haveg, to reduce dust, and they had a chemical --you know, projects, capital and maintenance projects on the way to reduce dust, from the mid-'60s, on. Q Okay. When did you first become aware of the hazards of asbestos? A You mean, while I was working for Hercules, that is? Q No, I mean you, personally. A Personally, while I was working for Hercules, I had a project being built, a capital project being built in Brunswick, Georgia And I was involved in working with the Engineering Department to specify equipment and what we needed And I do recall at that period, them talking about no asbestos insulation would be used. And they talked about the hazard, and then I think that's where I learned about hazards of asbestos Q Okay. When were --when was this happening that you were building this capital project in Georgia? A 1975. Q When did Hercules learn first that the HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM KENDALL WATSON PATTERSON Page 30 1 inhalation of asbestos could cause occupational 1 2 diseases? 2 3 MS WILLIAMS Objection, form 3 4 THE WITNESS I think in the '64 time 4 5 period they were aware of the hazard, but the main 5 6 concern at that period was known to be asbestosis 6 7 BY MR COTTEN 7 8 Q And certainly, Haveg also knew, and 8 9 Hercules knew, that exposures to asbestos dust needed to 9 10 be controlled, correct, in the '60s? 10 11 A They were working on reducing it, yes 11 12 Q And they knew that you needed to reduce it? 12 13 A From the standpoint of a general hazard, 13 14 yes 14 15 Q Okay. When did Hercules first understand 15 16 the connection between exposure to asbestos and 16 17 mesothelioma? 17 18 A I think in 1973 Now, Haveg, you're using 18 19 Hercules and Haveg interchangeably, here 19 20 Q Uh-huh. 20 21 A I believe that being - operating as a 21 22 wholly-owned subsidiary, that's really what it was It 22 23 was not integrated into the rest of the company, what we 23 24 and other parts of Hercules were dealing with 24 25 I'm going to answer the question on behalf 25 P age 31 1 of Haveg, because Hercules wasn't involved in the 1 2 day-to-day operations of Haveg 2 3 Q Okay. Certainly, the Safety Departments 3 4 became --between Hercules and Haveg became integrated 4 5 at a certain point, didn't they? 5 6 A Not integrated They'd been --they were 6 7 helpful to, as needed, but they were not - the people 7 8 in Haveg did not sit on the staff of the Corporate 8 9 Safety Department, Corporate Safety Department did not 9 10 have anybody sitting at the plant in Marshallton There 10 11 were occasional visits, as needed or as requested, for 11 12 reviews and opinions 12 13 Q Okay. When did those occasional visits 13 14 start? 14 15 A Started in 1964 after acquisition by 15 16 Hercules 16 17 Q Okay. Do you know when Haveg learned of 17 18 the connection between mesothelioma and exposure to 18 19 asbestos? 19 20 MS WILLIAMS Objection, form 20 21 THE WITNESS I would say it this way In 21 22 1973, Haveg was aware of the - under certain 22 23 circumstances, mesothelioma was related to asbestos 23 24 exposure 24 25 25 9 (Pages 30 to 33) P age 32 BY MR COTTEN Q Are you familiar with OSHA's asbestos regulations? A I know what the "in general" were I do not - have not read and studied the '72,76. and the detailed changes Q Okay. A But I know, m general, what it was all about Q So you understand that they were first promulgated in 1972? A That's correct Q You understand there was an Emergency Dust Standard in 1971? A I had heard that Q Okay. Have you ever seen that? A I don't think I have reviewed that document, no Q You don't dispute that the 1971 Asbestos Emergency Dust Standard would have applied to Haveg, do you? A I haven't read the standard. I'm not sure exactly what it said Q Okay. Do you know if anybody at Haveg ever read the standard, or read it when it came out? Page 33 A I'm sure they did. Q Okay. So in 1971 and '72, do you think they read the asbestos regulations promulgated by OSHA in 1972? A And followed them Yes Q Okay. So certainly, then, Haveg's got to know of the connection between exposure to asbestos and mesothelioma at least in 1971, right? MS WILLIAMS Objection, form THE WITNESS I wouldn't say it that way, because there - I have read that there were scientific opinion, that certain forms of asbestos cause certain disease And in '71 crocidohte was not on the plant, we didn't really start using it then On the plant they had anthophylhte was the type, and I have seen references to the belief, the scientific belief that anthophyllite caused asbestosis but it was not a cause of lung cancer or mesothelioma BY MR COTTEN Q Are you aware of any scientific opinion, either published or stated in testimony, dated 1965 or later, that has stated that crocidolite-asbestos didn't cause mesothelioma? MS WILLIAMS Objection, form THE WITNESS I haven't seen that HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM KENDALL WATSON PATTERSON P ag e 34 1 connection. 1 2 BY MR. COTTEN 2 3 Q Okay. 3 4 A Yeah. 4 5 Q Y ou understand that anthophyllite is an 5 6 am phibole form o f asbestos? 6 7 MS. WILLIAMS: Objection, form. 7 8 THE WITNESS: I have not used that word. 8 9 BY MR. COTTEN 9 10 Q O k a y . Y o u 'r e n o t an e x p e r t on a sb e s to s 10 11 m edicine, though, are you? 11 12 A I'm not an industrial hygienist. 12 13 Q Y ou're not a doctor, either? 13 14 A Or a doctor. Correct. 14 15 Q A n d y o u 'r e n o t an e p id e m io lo g ist eith er , 15 16 are you? 16 17 A That's correct. 17 18 MS. WILLIAMS: Chad, if this helps you, 18 19 we're not going to be offering Mr. Patterson as an 19 20 expert in any o f those areas -- 20 21 MR. COTTEN: I know. 21 22 MS. WILLIAMS: - at trial. 22 23 MR. COTTEN: I know. I'm just trying to 23 24 find out why he says or knows or thinks all o f those 24 25 things. 25 P age 35 1 MS. WILLIAMS I object to the sidebar. 1 2 BY MR. COTTEN 2 3 Q Have you seen any memos regarding --Haveg 3 4 memos or Hercules memos regarding asbestos safety? 4 5 A Yes. 5 6 MS WILLIAMS: Objection 6 7 BY MR. COTTEN 7 8 Q Okay. When is the last time you reviewed 8 9 such documents? 9 10 A For what time period? 10 11 Q When's the last time you looked at them? 11 12 A I looked at a few documents within the last 12 13 week 13 14 Q Okay. What documents did you look at in 14 15 the last week? 15 16 A I think I looked at the documents that were 16 17 covers to the various asbestos information supplied to 17 18 our employees. 18 19 Q Okay. When did Haveg first start supplying 19 20 asbestos information to its employees? 20 21 MS. WILLIAMS Objection, form. 21 22 THE WITNESS I'm not sure I've got - I 22 23 know the exact date on that 23 24 BY MR. COTTEN 24 25 Q It was in the '70s? 25 10 (Pages 34 to 37) P age 36 MS WILLIAMS What do you mean by "asbestos information," Chad9 MR COTTEN I'mjust repeating what he said MS WILLIAMS Still objecting to the form THE WITNESS The one I looked at was a 1973 document, but I don't know if there wasn't things earlier, I suspect there was BY MR COTTEN Q Okay. You suspect there were, but you don't -- A I don't know what - I don't know what they would have - they were open with, you know, the hazards, but the main focus, earlier, was on asbestosis Q Have you read any of the other depositions in this case, except for Mr. Gensler's? A None Q You've not read Dr. Weir's(phonetic) deposition in this case? A I have not Q Now, at a certain point, Haveg started recommending safe work practices for its Chemtite pipe, right? MS WILLIAMS Objection, form THE WITNESS They were - they were -- P age 37 recommended certain practices before Chemtite came to the plant BY MR. COTTEN Q Okay. No. I'm talking about -- here's what I'm talking about is the actual users guide, okay, or the instructions, for a better word. Like, for the end-users, did Chemtite ~ did Haveg ever put any recommendations for end-users to take any precautions because there was asbestos? A You mean, warnings? Q Yes. MS. WILLIAMS Form. THE WITNESS: Yes MR COTTEN- Okay. THE WITNESS There were warnings. BY MR. COTTEN Q When was the first warning, on Chemtite? A January of 1973. Q Okay. What did that warning say? A It was a long warning. MR. FITZPATRICK. Objection. THE WITNESS- I don't recall the exact wording from memory Do you have it right there, you're looking at? MR. COTTEN. No. HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM KENDALL WATSON PATTERSON xx \ r a y c a JO LU 4 i j P age 38 Page 40 1 THE WITNESS. It was a warning that 2 referred the people to the following knowledge: I think 1 someone at a hazard, you think you should warn them of 2 that; correct? 3 it --I can't recall the exact wording, but I can tell 3 MS WILLIAMS Objection, form 4 you that it tried to point out that if you modified the 4 THE WITNESS I wasn't there at that time 5 pipe - what it was really saying is, pipe, by itself, 5 but warnings are things that were done 6 is not hazardous. I mean, asbestos - even though 6 BY MR COTTEN 7 asbestos is made --is a part of the integral pipe, 7 Q Okay. I'm asking you right now, in this 8 because the pipe is a homogeneous material, then when 8 case, because you're here representing Hercules and 9 you modify it by cutting or sawing or drilling, dust may 9 Champlain Cable, do you think that it's a good thing to 10 be created, airborne dust. 10 warn an end-user of the possible hazards of using a 11 If that dust is created, we were directed 11 product that you're selling to that end-user? 12 to the OSHA standard dealing with protection o f the 12 MS WILLIAMS Objection, form 13 worker. That was the gist o f that first warning. 13 THE WITNESS The key word is "possible " 14 BY MR. COTTEN 14 We didn't say there was a hazard by modifying It could 15 Q Where was the warning? Was it on the box? 15 be created, dust We didn't say the dust had asbestos 16 A It was sent with the acknowledgment o f all 16 We don't know that it had asbestos at all 17 orders from customers, with acknowledgment back to the 17 BY MR COTTEN 18 customer. 18 Q Okay. But you don't want to say, one way 19 Q Okay. How was it sent? 19 or the other, if you - look: All I'm asking is, do you 20 A On the order acknowledgment itself 20 think it's a good thing, if there's a possible hazard to 21 Q All right. How long was the order 21 an end-user using a product that you've sold that 22 acknowledgment? 22 end-user, and using it in a way that you've already told 23 A One page. 23 me you guys could anticipate that they would use it - 24 Q So if we had an order acknowledgment, we 24 like, that way, cut it - that you - that it's the 25 should be able to look on there and see a warning? 25 right thing to do, to warn the end-user of this possible Page 39 Page 41 1 A That's my understanding. 1 hazard? 2 Q All right. Why was that warning put in 2 A We did. 3 there? 3 Q Okay. 4 MS. WILLIAMS: Objection, form 5 THE WITNESS. It was a part o f the decision 6 to - I don't know the exact reference to the document 4 MS. WILLIAMS: Objection, form. 5 THE WITNESS' The warning did warn. The 6 language did warn. 7 you're referring to, but it's a part o f our 7 BY MR COTTEN 8 responsibility to warn when we saw that we need to warn. 8 Q Do you know what the time-weighted average 9 BY MR. COTTEN 9 for asbestos was in 1972? 10 Q Okay. You think that if you're making 10 MS. WILLIAMS: Objection, form 11 something that could be hazardous -- 11 THE WITNESS. What do you mean9 The 12 A Uh-huh 12 regulation? 13 Q --that you have a responsibility to 13 BY MR. COTTEN 14 the user - the person who could be put at the hazard? 14 Q Uh-huh. 15 MS. WILLIAMS: Objection, form. 15 A Or recommendation? 16 THE WITNESS: We didn't attempt to put down 16 17 all the uses because you can't do that There are too 17 Q The recommendation. A I believe it was 5 million particles per 18 many. We didn't --we gave a warning that said, 18 cubic foot of air. 19 "Material is bound, as is " 20 BY MR. COTTEN 21 Q And you, like I say, you think that's a 22 good thing to do? 19 Q Okay. Do you know what an excursion limit 20 is, in reference to asbestos? 21 A I have not used that term, "excursion 22 limit." 23 MS WILLIAMS. Objection, form. 24 BY MR. COTTEN 25 Q If it can be used in a way that can put 23 O Do you know what I'm talking about? 24 A Things over - 25 Q A limit you should never go above? HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM KENDALL WATSON PATTERSON 12 {Pages 42 to 45) Page 42 Page 44 1 A I have not seen that 1 BY MR. COTTEN 2 Q Okay. 3 A In that term, no 4 Q All right. And so you wouldn't know what 2 Q Okay. I want you to look at the second 3 paragraph on this, okay, for me, and read it and then 4 we'll go over it. I want to give you a chance to read 5 it was for any particular use, correct? 5 it first. 6 A I have not seen the term "excursion limits" 6 A Okay. 7 during that time 7 (Witness examines document.) 8 Q Okay. Do you understand that when the 8 MR. FITZPATRICK Just read the second 9 asbestos regulations were first promulgated and then 9 paragraph 10 subsequently modified, that each one had a 10 MR. COTTEN The second paragraph. He can 11 recommended -- or a required time-weighted average you 11 read the whole thing if he wants. 12 were supposed to stay below? Okay? Do you understand 12 MS. WILLIAMS' And, Chad, I'd just like to 13 that? 13 object to this line o f questioning, to the extent that 14 A I understand that. 14 he's never seen the document before and I don't 15 Q Okay. They also had a number that you were 15 understand the relevance in the Gensler case. 16 never supposed to exceed; do you understand that? 16 MR COTTEN Oh, it's quite relevant But 17 A I have not seen it in that term, no 17 we'll deal with the objection later I hear you. It's 18 Q Okay. Do you know of any other limits, 18 m the record 19 other than the time-weighted-average limit, that were 19 MS. WILLIAMS: And, Chad, I don't know if 20 part of the asbestos regulation? 20 we got this agreement when we started, but for purposes 21 A I have not read regulations to get that 21 of this deposition, is an objection by one Defendant 22 information, no 22 good for all Defendants present? 23 Q Okay. I'm going to show you a document 23 MR. COTTEN- Yes. 24 that's dated January 15th, 1974. It's Bates-stamped. 24 MS WILLIAMS. Thank you 25 It's a DuPont document. And I want to ask you, first of 25 MR. FITZPATRICK- Okay. P age 43 Page 45 1 all, if you have ever seen this before. 1 MR COTTEN Okay. 2 (Document to witness.) 2 THE WITNESS' All right. 3 MS. WILLIAMS: Chad, what is the Bates 3 MR. COTTEN: Could I see that back? 4 number for that document? 4 (Document to Mr. Cotten.) 5 MR COTTEN: I'll read it to you when he's 5 BY MR. COTTEN 6 done looking 6 Q All right. So the second paragraph says, 7 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay Thank you. 7 quote, "The results show that with the exception of 8 MR. FITZPATRICK. Let me ask you Is this 8 machining Haveg pipe and removing dry magnesium 9 a Bates-stamped number from a production in this case? 9 insulation, liber concentration did not exceed the 10 MR COTTEN: No 10 allowable limit of 5 fibers per milliliter of air for 11 THE WITNESS. First, I've never seen this 11 handling without respiratory protection." Did you see 12 document. 12 that? 13 BY MR. COTTEN 13 A I saw that. 14 Q Okay. 14 Q Okay. What is "machining Haveg pipe?" 15 MR. FITZPATRICK That's the only question 15 What do you think that means? 16 that's put to you. 16 MR. FITZPATRICK: Objection 17 MR. COTTEN' Right. It's Bates-stamped 17 MS WILLIAMS: Object to fonn Chad, he's 18 twice, and I'll read them both to you. The first one is 18 already said he's not familiar with this document 19 DUP050-2566, to DUP050-2567 19 MR COTTEN' I'm asking what he thinks the 20 The second one is DU002141, to DU002142 20 word "machining" means. 21 It's dated January 15th, 1974. It's a Memo to all 21 MS. WILLIAMS Yes Let me finish my 22 Engineering Division Superintendents from H.J Ducote, 22 objection. I'm objecting - you're asking him what 23 which is D-U-C-O-T-E. It's titled, Air Sampling for 24 Asbestos Fibers, Results. 23 somebody may have meant by a term "machining" in a 24 document that he doesn't know anything about. 25 25 MR COTTEN Okay I'll lay a foundation, HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM KENDALL WATSON PATTERSON 13 (Pages 46 to 49) P age 46 P age 48 1 then. 1 BY MR COTTEN 2 MS. WILLIAMS: Thank you. 2 Q Not necessarily. But it is something that 3 BY MR. COTTEN 3 you - that needs to be done, correct, at times? 4 Q You worked for Hercules from 1968 to 2003, 4 MS. WILLIAMS. Objection. 5 correct? 5 THE WITNESS: You're dealing with -- you're 6 A Correct. 6 talking about Chemtite - 7 Q And you were Process Engineer for a time? 7 MR. COTTEN- No, I'm talking about Haveg. 8 A I was. 8 THE WITNESS -- or Haveg? Haveg pipe was 9 Q You have been in supervisory positions in 9 often supplied to the customers, cut for the use and 10 technical management, correct? 10 everything is ready to put together 11 A That's correct. 11 BY MR COTTEN 12 Q You were in charge of the Resins Division? 12 Q Okay. Would customers ever have to cut 13 A I was. 13 Haveg pipe? 14 Q You're familiar with the kind of products 14 A Sometimes. 15 that Haveg made and sold, right? 15 Q Okay. Would customers ever have to drill 16 A Not during the time I worked 16 Haveg pipe? 17 Q You are now? 17 A Don't know. 18 A I am now. 18 Q Now, you're a Process Engineer, okay. I'm 19 Q And you're a corporate representative of 19 asking you, as an engineer and as a corporate 20 Hercules and Champlain Cable in this case; is that 20 representative, if you are familiar with the term 21 correct? 21 "machining" in connection with these resin-based pipes 22 A That's correct 22 that Haveg manufactured and sold. 23 Q And one of the things that you're here to 23 MS. WILLIAMS: Objection. 24 testily about on behalf of the company is what 24 THE WITNESS: I have not seen a detailed 25 asbestos-containing products they sold, right? 25 flow sheet of the process for Haveg or Chemtite I have P age 47 Page 49 1 A Correct 1 not ever seen one or heard if there is one that I could 2 Q Okay. And Haveg pipe is one of them, 2 look at. As a result, I don't know whether machining 3 correct? 3 was a part o f the fabrication o f everything or not. 4 A That is correct. 4 BY MR. COTTEN 5 Q And you understand, and we talked about 5 Q Okay. In machining, do you think that they 6 earlier, that there were certain things you may need to 6 mean "cutting?" 7 do to fabricate the pipe, right? 7 MS. WILLIAMS: Objection, form. 8 A Okay. 8 THE WITNESS: Not necessarily. Machining 9 MS WILLIAMS' Objection, form. 9 can mean grinding; it can mean a number of things. It's 10 BY MR COTTEN 10 a term that is not necessarily applied to just one 11 Q Drilling, correct? Drilling? 11 activity. 12 MS WILLIAMS: Objection, form 12 BY MR. COTTEN 13 MR. FITZPATRICK. Is your question - 13 Q Okay. So you don't know what that means, 14 MR. COTTEN: Yes. 14 "machining?" 15 MR. FITZPATRICK - you need to drill the 15 MS. WILLIAMS: Objection, form. 16 pipe9 16 BY MR. COTTEN 17 BY MR. COTTEN 17 Q Do you have an idea o f what it means, 18 Q No. Is that one of the things you do when 18 either this or that? 19 you're fabricating the pipe on a job site? 19 MS. WILLIAMS: Objection, form. 20 A Not necessarily. 20 MR. FITZPATRICK: Don't speculate. 21 MS. WILLIAMS: Object to form 21 THE WITNESS: I don't. 22 BY MR. COTTEN 22 BY MR. COTTEN 23 Q Okay. How about cutting it? 23 Q Okay. You have no idea? 24 A Not necessarily. 24 MS. WILLIAMS: Objection, form. 25 MS. WILLIAMS: Objection, form. 25 THE WITNESS: In the context o f that --the HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM KENDALL WATSON PATTERSON Page 50 1 document, I do not. 1 2 MR. COTTEN: Okay. 2 3 MS. WILLIAMS: Why don't you ask --the 3 4 witness, Chad --the document speaks for itself. Let's 4 5 move on. 5 6 BY MR. COTTEN 6 7 Q Now, did you turn to the second page? 7 8 A Let me see it again. 8 9 (Document to witness.) 9 10 THE WITNESS: Okay. 10 11 BY MR. COTTEN 11 12 Q Okay. So on the first page, and we'll mark 12 13 this as Exhibit - how about Exhibit 4. 13 14 (Patterson Exhibit Number 4 marked for 14 15 identification.) 15 16 MR. COTTEN: Exhibit 1 will be the Notice. 16 17 (Patterson Exhibit Number 1 marked for 17 18 identification.) 18 19 MR. COTTEN: Exhibit 2 will be the 19 20 Objections to the Notice. 20 21 (Patterson Exhibit Number 2 marked for 21 22 identification.) 22 23 MR. COTTEN: Exhibit 3 will be your CV. 23 24 (Patterson Exhibit Number 3 marked for 24 25 identification.) 25 P age 51 1 MR. COTTEN: And so we'll call this 1 2 Exhibit 4. 2 3 BY MR. COTTEN 3 4 Q Paragraph two says that, "With the 4 5 exception of machining Haveg pipe and removing dry 5 6 magnesium insulation, fiber concentrations did not 6 7 exceed the allowable limit of S fibers per milliliter of 7 8 air." 8 9 Let me ask you, first, did Hercules or 9 10 Haveg ever conduct any dust samplings to measure the 10 11 amount of asbestos through the grinding of Haveg pipe? 11 12 MS. WILLIAMS' Objection to form 12 13 THE WITNESS' 1 have not seen anything - 13 14 you're talking about within a process step9 14 15 BY MR COTTEN 15 16 Q No, Pm talking about in a fabrication 16 17 step. 17 18 A I have not seen that data 18 19 Q Did Haveg or Hercules ever do any type of 19 20 dust monitoring for any type of fabrication step on 20 21 either Haveg or Chemtite pipe? 21 22 MS. WILLIAMS: Objection, form. Asked and 22 23 answered 23 24 THE WITNESS: I'm not aware of that type 24 25 study. 25 14 (Pages 50 to 53) Page 52 BY MR. COTTEN 0 Okay. So here we have, the job is machining Haveg pipe, the location is the shop, and it's a personal sample, and it's 18.22 fibers per milliliter of air; did you see that? A I saw that. MS WILLIAMS Object to form. BY MR. COTTEN Q Okay. Now, for 1974, is that above the allowable OSHA standard? MS. WILLIAMS: Objection, form. THE WITNESS' It is BY MR COTTEN Q Okay. And the next one is an area sample. It's the next one down. A Okay. Q And what does that one say? A 17. Q Point? A .2697 Q And that one's over the OSHA standard of 1974, too, correct? A It is. MS. WILLIAMS. Form. Page 53 BY MR COTTEN Q In 1974, was Haveg and/or Hercules aware that this amount of asbestos dust could be created by machining Haveg pipe? MR. FITZPATRICK: I'll object to form MS. WILLIAMS. Objection, form. THE WITNESS I have not seen data broken down m that way BY MR. COTTEN Q Okay. Did Haveg have any type of idea the amount of asbestos dust that would be created through the fabrication of its pipe by end-users? MS WILLIAMS: Objection, form THE WITNESS' You're mixing end-users with our plant. BY MR COTTEN Q I'm not, though. I'm just talking about end-users. MS WILLIAMS: Object to form THE WITNESS: We did not know what they were doing with it, so we couldn't have - that's why we put the warning, in case they did create airborne dust, they were directed toward workman protection, respirators. HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM KENDALL WATSON PATTERSON P ag e 54 1 BY MR COTTEN 1 2 Q Okay. You would agree with me, wouldn't 2 3 you, that DuPont was an end-user? 3 4 MS. WILLIAMS' Objection, form. 4 5 THE WITNESS' I have not seen data that 5 6 says that. They may be. They might have been 6 7 MR. COTTEN- Okay 7 8 THE WITNESS: Probably --probably used 8 9 some. 9 10 BY MR. COTTEN 10 11 Q Should the end-users know more about how 11 12 much asbestos dust is created by the fabrication of 12 13 Haveg's product, than Haveg, who is manufacturing the 13 14 product? 14 15 MR. FITZPATRICK: Objection, form. 15 16 MS. WILLIAMS. Objection. 16 17 THE WITNESS: I don't know that -- 17 18 MR FITZPATRICK Just answer the question. 18 19 THE WITNESS: No, no - ask the question 19 20 again. I'm sorry. 20 21 MR. COTTEN: Can you read the question 21 22 back? 22 23 THE WITNESS' Read the question 23 24 (The court reporter read back the question, 24 25 "Should the end-users know more about how much asbestos 25 Page 55 1 dust is created by the fabrication o f Haveg's product, 1 2 than Haveg, who is manufacturing the product9") 2 3 MS. WILLIAMS. Same objection. 3 4 THE WITNESS We don't know what they -- 4 5 exactly, steps they were doing with it. Haveg would not 5 6 know what steps they were doing with it. 6 7 BY MR. COTTEN 7 8 Q Because you don't know exactly what any 8 9 particular end-user is going to do with it, doesn't it 9 10 make it all the more important to conduct --for Haveg 10 11 to conduct its own tests of the various aspects of 11 12 fabrication that it can foresee end-users doing? 12 13 MS WILLIAMS' Objection, form. 13 14 THE WITNESS: It's dozens, maybe thousands, 14 15 of application changes that we - we had no way of 15 16 knowing exactly what conditions the customer was using. 16 17 BY MR COTTEN 17 18 Q You certainly know that they might cut it 18 19 or drill it, though, correct? 19 20 A Yes, but a lot of things we didn't know 20 21 Q Okay. Have you ever heard of Haveg or 21 22 Chemtite pipe being sawed in a shop by an end-user? 22 23 A I think the new --yes, they --not 23 24 specifically, but I imagine it's --in reference to 24 25 cutting, what type o f equipment you can use, for 25 15 (Pages 54 to 57) Page 56 example Some of it would be the shop equipment Q How about grinding Haveg pipe? MS WILLIAMS Objection, form THE WITNESS I have not seen specific equipment on that BY MR COTTEN Q In the third paragraph here, it talks about, "The shop has been advised to use water mist cooling while machining Haveg pipe to eliminate dusting." Did you see that? A I saw it. Q Does the fact that they're talking about water mist cooling enable you to make any conclusions about what they're doing, machining this pipe? MS WILLIAMS Objection, form MR FITZPATRICK Don't speculate. THE WITNESS No. BY MR COTTEN Q Have you ever seen any documents from Dow Chemical Corporation about the uses of Haveg or Chemtite pipe at the Freeport division? A I have seen no documents MS WILLIAMS Objection, form BY MR COTTEN Q Have you seen any Dow documents regarding Page 57 the amount of asbestos dust created by the fabrication of Haveg or Chemtite pipes? A I have not. Q Do you think it was a good idea for DuPont to measure the amount of asbestos dust being created by the machining and drilling of Haveg pipe? MS WILLIAMS. Objection, form. THE WITNESS: They were a customer. There's nothing wrong with that. BY MR COTTEN Q Okay. Do you think that's a good safety practice? A We were working on dust ourselves at that time. Q All right. But what I'm asking you is, for them to conduct these tests and measure the amount of dust that's being created, when they used the product, the Haveg pipe, do you think that that was a good thing for them to do? A Yes MS WILLIAMS: Objection, form. MR. COTTEN. Why don't we take a break. We've been going an hour. (A brief recess was taken.) HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM KENDALL WATSON PATTERSON Page 58 1 BY MR COTTEN 1 2 Q We were talking earlier about what you 2 3 know --we were talking earlier about the OSHA asbestos 3 4 regulations, and you mentioned a couple times that you 4 5 thought that Haveg was trying to deal with the dust 5 6 issue, correct? 6 7 A Correct 7 8 Q Okay. I want to show you something that 8 9 I'm pretty sure you've seen before. It's from August of 9 10 1978 about a plant tour from a guy named Mr. West at the 10 11 Hercules Safety Department. 11 12 (Document to witness.) 12 13 THE WITNESS Let me see 13 14 (Witness examines document) 14 15 BY MR COTTEN 15 16 Q Okay. I want to direct your attention 16 17 first, to the one, two, three, four --seventh paragraph 17 18 that starts --well, first of all, who is Mr. West? 18 19 A He was a member of the Safety Department 19 20 Q At Hercules? 20 21 A At the corporate - yes 21 22 Q Okay. And you were going to say 22 23 corporate -- 23 24 A Corporate Safety Department, yes. 24 25 Q Okay. Corporate Safety Department. Did 25 Page 59 1 Haveg have their own Safety Department? 1 2 A They had a safety unit, which had -- 2 3 Mr Painter was the coordinator of 3 4 Q Okay. Who did Mr. Painter work for? 4 5 A The plant manager, I believe 5 6 Q So he's technically working for Haveg, or 6 7 Hercules? 7 8 A Haveg 8 9 Q Okay. But the plant tour we're talking 9 10 about here was from a Mr. West from the Hercules Safety 10 11 Department? 11 12 A Yes. 12 13 Q The corporate office? 13 14 A Correct 14 15 Q Okay. And these are the types of safety 15 16 tours that had been going on since 1964? 16 17 A Yes I'm not sure what caused that one, 17 18 whether it was for looking at a project They reviewed 18 19 projects, they reviewed various things at various times 19 20 Q Okay. Now, this --what plant are they 20 21 talking about here? 21 22 A Marshaliton 22 23 Q This is where they made Chemtite pipe, 23 24 right? 24 25 A Well, they made the other Haveg material, 25 16 (Pages 58 to 61) Page 60 or anthophyllite, and they also made Chemtite at the location. Q Okay. A I think they're talking about the whole location Q Yeah. Okay. So one, two, three --wait. Hold on --the seventh paragraph, again, I'm pretty sure you're familiar with that Could you read that into the record? MS. WILLIAMS: Object to the sidebar THE WITNESS: "Mr West remarked that if an OSHA inspector at this very moment showed up, Haveg would be instantly closed down and cited for willfully contaminating the area with asbestos. OSHA would also impose on Haveg high penalties in fines and, m turn, this would make us wide open for multimillion dollar liable suits brought on by personnel for being criminally exposed." BY MR. COTTEN Q Okay. Now, this is from 1978, right? A Correct. Q In what year was the OSHA asbestos regulations promulgated? A The first one was in '72. Q So six years before this? Page 61 A Yeah, that's true. Q Now, you'd agree with me that Mr. West doesn't think that Haveg cares about asbestos dust at its facility, right? MR. FITZPATRICK: Objection, form. THE WITNESS: I don't know what Mr. West thinks I know this. That that was at a point in time when there was a bad inspection. BY MR COTTEN Q Well, let's go to the next paragraph, which is the eighth paragraph. Would you read that one into the record? A "Such deplorable conditions in these localities is not a first-time happening. Mr Good, my predecessor, as well as I, have constantly brought up the matter but somehow the seriousness of the nature does not seem to be acknowledged. "A similar occurrence, although not related to housekeeping, was when Mr A Simpson, Delaware Air Division, visited us on August 23, 1978 His visiting time and the specific equipment he was to monitor was well announced and in plenty of foretime But the asbestos drier[sic], one of the requisites, was not operating. Half an hour later when the drier was in operation and stabilized enough for monitoring the HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM KENDALL WATSON PATTERSON P ag e 62 1 effectiveness o f the complementing dust collector, the 1 2 air blower on the roof was scattering asbestos fibers 2 3 into the atmosphere, right before the eyes o f our 3 4 visitor. 4 5 "This could have been avoided had the drier 5 6 been in operation and the blower outlet inspected that 6 7 morning." 7 8 Q Okay. What's the asbestos drier? 8 9 MS. WILLIAMS: Objection, form. 9 10 THE WITNESS: That's a part o f the Haveg 10 11 plant not connected to Chemtite, where I think --it's 11 12 obviously the drying o f asbestos. 12 13 BY MR. COTTEN 13 14 Q Uh-huh. 14 15 A And, it --I'm speculating if I say exactly 15 16 what -- before this step or another step. But it's just 16 17 drying the asbestos prior to mixing with the resin. 17 18 Q The raw anthophyllite-asbestos? 18 19 A Either before --yeah, it's anthophyllite 19 20 without resin. 20 21 Q Okay. There was asbestos crocidolite paper 21 22 in the Chemtite, correct? 22 23 A Correct. 23 24 Q Was the paper bought or made by Haveg? 24 25 A The paper was always bought in roll form. 25 P ag e 63 1 Q Okay. 1 2 A Paper. 2 3 Q Who is Mr. Good? 3 4 A He was a Safety Coordinator prior to 4 5 Mr Painter. 5 6 Q When did Mr. Painter become the Safety 6 7 Coordinator? 7 8 A He was there from '71 until sometime in the 8 9 mid-'70s at another assignment or other location; came 9 10 back in '7 8 ,1believe 10 11 Q Okay. So Mr. Good is out there in the 11 12 mid-'70s? 12 13 A Yes 13 14 Q So here we have Mr. Painter saying that 14 15 both he and Mr. Good brought up this matter, meaning, 15 16 asbestos safety, but nobody has acknowledged it. You'd 16 17 agree that that's what he says? 17 18 MR. FITZPATRICK Object to the form. Show 18 19 him the document so he can agree or not agree 19 20 (Witness examines document.) 20 21 THE WITNESS: He states that. But he 21 22 doesn't state it's been continuously like that from time 22 23 periods. 23 24 BY MR. COTTEN 24 25 Q Okay. So you'd want somebody to say, "1 25 17 (Pages 62 to 65) P ag e 64 came here on this date and started telling you, and until now, nothing has ever happened"? A No, that's not what I'm saying. MS. WILLIAMS Objection THE WITNESS' That was not what I was implying BY MR. COTTEN Q Okay. Do you think there was a time before this where Haveg was taking asbestos seriously at the plant and then they stopped doing it? MS. WILLIAMS: Objection. THE WITNESS. I don't think they stopped doing it. That's a one-shot inspection that was not one o f their better days, obviously BY MR. COTTEN Q Okay. What does it mean, "Willfully contaminating the environment with asbestos"? MR FITZPATRICK: Objection. MS WILLIAMS: Objection, form. THE WITNESS: I don't --I don't know what --why they said that BY MR. COTTEN Q Who is Dudley Barton? A General manager Q O f the plant? P age 65 A Of the location Yes, sir Q Okay. Did Mr. Barton have a response in writing to this memo? A I have not seen it, if he did Q Was Mr. Barton reprimanded in connection with this memo? MS WILLIAMS Objection, form THE WITNESS I do not know BY MR COTTEN Q Do you know when Mr. Barton stopped working for Haveg? A He was there through the sale to Ametek, and then it went on with - with the process with them Q Okay. So when was the sale to Ametek? A October of 1980 Q And then he continued on with Ametek? A Correct Q Okay. Can you read the last paragraph here? A "Not wanting to sound like a Cassandra, 1 must still say that 1cannot overemphasize the seventy of these infractions, and that my amazement of the observed lack of concern or understanding of the gravity of such problems by the supervisor " Q Okay. Doesn't that continue --doesn't HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM KENDALL WATSON PATTERSON P age 66 1 that indicate to you that this is a continuing problem, 1 2 as far as Mr. West or Mr. Painter is concerned? 2 3 A It doesn't say the frequency at all. 3 4 Q Okay. But he still says "infractions," 4 5 correct? So he's not just talking about one? 5 6 MS. WILLIAMS- Objection, form. 6 7 THE WITNESS. That's what he says. 7 8 BY MR COTTEN 8 9 Q Right. And he also says, "The observed 9 10 lack of concern or an understanding of the gravity of 10 11 such problems," right? Meaning, there was more than 11 12 one, obviously? 12 13 MS WILLIAMS: Objection, form 13 14 THE WITNESS. That's what he says. 14 15 BY MR. COTTEN 15 16 Q Okay. What's a Cassandra? 16 17 A I don't know what that refers to. 17 18 Q Okay. 18 19 A I'm not sure that's a mythological 19 20 reference. 20 21 Q It is. And tell me if this refreshes your 21 22 memory. It's someone who is always saying the sky is 22 23 falling, basically, right? Cassandra? 23 24 MS. WILLIAMS: Object to form. 24 25 25 P ag e 67 1 BY MR COTTEN 1 2 Q So he doesn't want to sound too negative; 2 3 is that what he's saying right there? 3 4 MS. WILLIAMS: Objection, form 4 5 THE WITNESS- Yeah. I guess that's what 5 6 he's trying to say 6 7 BY MR. COTTEN 7 8 Q Okay. Now, the paragraph right above that, 8 9 okay, "Such occurrences cannot be ignored. The 9 10 wage-role employees are generally the culprits because 10 11 they are the user of the solvents in their operations. 11 12 But if no supervision is present and constant 12 13 surveillance is not made, they stand blameless," right? 13 14 Do. 14 15 You remember reading that? Do you want to 15 16 read it again? 16 17 (Document to witness.) 17 18 MS. WILLIAMS: Objection Is there a 18 19 question? 19 20 THE WITNESS That's what he says 20 21 BY MR COTTEN 21 22 Q Okay. Now, he's saying there, that this is 22 23 M r. B a rto n 's fa u lt, rig h t? 23 24 MS WILLIAMS. Objection, form. 24 25 THE WITNESS He is saying that - the 25 18 (Pages 66 to 69) P age 68 inference is that it's -- MR. FITZPATRICK.: Don't draw inferences. Just -- THE WITNESS- I don't know what he's saying BY MR COTTEN Q Okay. Do you know who else was copied on this memo? A Sorry. I do not. Q Now, so this is a memo from Mr. Painter to the Safety Coordinator there at the plant, to Mr. West, or to --I'm sorry - to Mr. Barton, who is the general manager of the plant. And the Safety Coordinator, Mr. Painter, is saying to the general manager of the plant, Mr. --that if OSHA showed up, right at that moment, that the whole plant would be closed down and cited for willfully contaminating the environment with asbestos. That's what he says. Do you know what Mr. Barton did specifically in reaction to this memo? MS WILLIAMS: Objection to the sidebar. Objection to the form of the question. THE WITNESS. I have not seen a response. BY MR. COTTEN Q Do you know if he did anything? Page 69 A I do not know Q Okay. He certainly wasn't let go by Haveg or Hercules, was he? Mr. Painter? Or, I mean, Mr. Barton? A He was not Q Okay. Now, you think, certainly, that something should have been done in reaction to this memo, don't you? MS WILLIAMS Objection, form THE WITNESS I do not believe that to be the case - that memo to be the case on a day-to-day basis MR COTTEN. Okay. THE WITNESS --of the whole time period BY MR COTTEN Q Even if it wasn't the case on a day-to-day basis, if something like this had happened and was put in writing in a memo, you would think that Mr. Barton would have taken some action in response to it, correct? A He may have I don't know Q Well, I'm not asking you whether or not he did, because we already established that you don't know. A Okay MS WILLIAMS Objection, form HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM KENDALL WATSON PATTERSON Page 70 1 BY MR. COTTEN 1 2 Q I'm asking, do you think he should have? 2 3 MS WILLIAMS Objection, form. 3 4 THE WITNESS: Yes. 4 5 BY MR COTTEN 5 6 Q Okay. You ran a plant, right? 6 7 A Right. 7 8 Q The one in Georgia, correct? 8 9 A I have, yes. 9 10 Q Okay. If somebody came to you -- you're 10 11 the general manager of the plant, right? 11 12 A Let's say --well, not that title, but 12 13 let's just say I was in charge. 13 14 Q Okay. What was your official title? 14 15 A I was the Area Manager at that time, Area 15 16 Supervisor of that plant. 16 17 Q Okay. 17 18 A Subunit of a larger plant. 18 19 Q Okay. Was there a Safety Coordinator too? 19 20 A For the plant, yes. 20 21 Q And if the Safety Coordinator came to you 21 22 and said that the area that you were managing, if OSHA 22 23 were to show up that day, the whole thing would be shut 23 24 down, you would take steps, wouldn't you, to correct the 24 25 problems? 25 Page 71 1 MS. WILLIAMS. Objection, form. 1 2 THE WITNESS- I would. 2 3 BY MR. COTTEN 3 4 Q Okay. And you'd probably file a written 4 5 response too, correct? 5 6 A Not necessarily 6 7 MS. WILLIAMS Form 7 8 BY MR. COTTEN 8 9 Q Okay. The fourth paragraph, what does that 9 10 say? 10 11 (Witness examines document.) 11 12 THE WITNESS: "In the same locality there 12 13 are asbestos paper rolls, bare, and plastic bag coverage 13 14 is mandatory for asbestos items." 14 15 BY MR. COTTEN 15 16 Q Okay. So that's asbestos paper rolls, 16 17 right? 17 18 A That's correct 18 19 Q That's Chemtite stuff? 19 20 MS. WILLIAMS- Objection. 20 21 THE WITNESS. Chemtite feedstock 21 22 BY MR. COTTEN 22 23 Q Okay. And what that paragraph says is that 23 24 it's required that there be plastic bag coverage on 24 25 those paper rolls, and there wasn't any? 25 19 (Pages 70 to 73) Page 72 MS WILLIAMS: Objection, form. BY MR. COTTEN Q Right? MS. WILLIAMS. The document speaks for itself. THE WITNESS: The document says that. BY MR. COTTEN Q Okay. And you don't know whether or not Mr. Barton ever went back and made sure that they covered up the paper rolls with plastic, as was required by the law, do you? MS WILLIAMS: Objection, form. THE WITNESS- I do not know, either way. BY MR. COTTEN Q Okay. Wouldn't a standard practice --and maybe it wouldn't be, so tell me - wouldn't a standard practice in Haveg and in Hercules be to make sure that each one of these specifically identified problems -- because they are specifically identified --have been dealt with and in writing so you guys can verify it? MS. WILLIAMS: Objection, form THE WITNESS' Things get corrected with high priority, and I'm not --we don't know that that wasn't corrected. Page 73 BY MR. COTTEN Q Isn't it important --but we don't know that it was, either, do we? MS WILLIAMS' Objection, form THE WITNESS. I believe the culture o f that plant was not as bad as he's indicating BY MR. COTTEN Q Okay. You believe that, based on what? A The Plant Safety Committee met all the time that --that Plant Safety Committee met monthly, made up o f a couple o f managing - management people and a couple o f technicians and then one person from each area of the plant. And they saw to it that two things happened: That things were identified and corrected, and that they had a Safety and Housekeeping Report each month. Safety and Housekeeping Reports, I looked at 45 o f these over the time period 1964 to 1980, and there's not a trend that says that that memo we've been speaking o f is representative. BY MR COTTEN Q Have you brought any of those reports with you to your deposition? A No Q When's the last time you looked at them? HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM KENDALL WATSON PATTERSON P age 74 1 A A couple of days ago 1 2 MR FITZPATRICK I would note for the 2 3 record that they were all produced 3 4 BY MR COTTEN 4 5 Q Did you sit on that committee? 5 6 A No 6 7 Q Have you talked to anybody who did sit on 7 8 that committee, in connection with this memo from 1978, 8 9 which we'll mark as Exhibit 5? 9 10 A No 10 11 (Patterson Exhibit Number 5 marked for 11 12 identification) 12 13 BY MR COTTEN 13 14 Q And I just want to make sure that I get 14 15 this straight: You think that even though this memo 15 IS came out that says that the opinion of the Safety 16 17 Coordinator is that if OSHA showed up that day they'd 17 18 shut down the Haveg plant for violating the asbestos 18 19 rules, that you don't think the plant was really that 19 20 bad, with --in connection with asbestos? 20 21 MS WILLIAMS Objection, form 21 22 THE WITNESS I didn't say that What I 22 23 was talking about was the period of time of any spot -- 23 24 that's a spot inspection and ajudgment that is 24 25 horrible, and it could have been But I'm saying that 25 Page 75 1 they took care of housekeeping, they continued to work 1 2 on it through the time period '64 to 1980 2 3 BY MR COTTEN 3 4 Q Okay. But just to be clear, you don't have 4 5 any knowledge, one way or the other, whether any of the 5 6 issues that are noted in this memo were ever addressed 6 7 or taken care of? 7 8 A I don't recall seeing it, no 8 9 Q Okay. 9 10 MS WILLIAMS Asked and answered 10 11 BY MR COTTEN 11 12 Q Did you, in your review of the housekeeping 12 13 memos, was there one done in August or September of 13 14 1978? 14 15 A I didn't try to match them up I wasn't 15 16 trying to prove a memo I was looking at the -- 16 17 Q The housekeeping memos, wouldn't they be 17 18 expected to address these issues? 18 19 MS WILLIAMS Objection, form 19 20 THE WITNESS I didn't have all the months 20 21 by any stretch of the imagination I had 45 for 16 21 22 years 22 23 BY MR COTTEN 23 24 Q Okay. If you saw one from September of 24 25 1978, wouldn't you expect all these issues to be 25 20 (Pages 74 to 77) Page 76 addressed in that report? MS WILLIAMS Objection, form THE WITNESS I don't know that it was linked to that report Ijust don't know BY MR. COTTEN Q Okay. What is the purpose of these Safety and Housekeeping Reports? A To continue to emphasize where changes are needed, fix it, and demonstrate that you fixed it Q So wouldn't the things that are outlined in this 19 -- in this August 29th, 1978, report, things that needed to be changed and emphasized? A They may have been 1just don't have the linkage between that date and the monthly Q Right. I'm not-A No Q -- asking you whether they're in the housekeeping report. What I'm asking you is, don't you think they should have been in the housekeeping report? A That was done by different people than the housekeeping report I mean, it's two different documents Q Okay. Would the housekeeping --would the people doing the housekeeping report know about the asbestos regulations? Page 77 MS WILLIAMS Objection, form THE WITNESS They knew that dust was to be reduced, eliminated BY MR COTTEN Q Asbestos dust? A Dust You don't know, when you're doing something, whether it's resin dust or encapsulated asbestos, or asbestos So we say, you know, dust is -- get rid of dust Q Okay. A Some of it's asbestos, some is other dust Q Well, what I'm trying to understand is if the people writing the Safety and Housekeeping Reports aren't familiar with these issues, why would you look at the Safety and Housekeeping Reports in order to determine whether these issues were being dealt with? A They're looking at everything They're looking at -- all the plant's -- it's a tour It's a tour, looking for good versus bad Q Now, we're talking about something that's so bad that Mr. Painter thinks that OSHA would shut the whole plant down, right? That's what he says? A He says that, but we don't know -- MS WILLIAMS Form HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM KENDALL WATSON PATTERSON P age 78 1 BY MR COTTEN 1 2 Q That's what it says? 2 3 A That's what it says That's what he says 3 4 Q And these are Hercules employees saying 4 5 that? 5 6 A He's a Haveg employee 6 7 Q Okay. 7 8 A Mr West9 8 9 Q No, Mr. West remarked that if an OSHA 9 10 inspector at this very moment showed up, Haveg would be 10 11 instantly closed down. 11 12 A See, I don't know what Mr West -- 12 13 MS WILLIAMS Objection, form 13 14 THE WITNESS I don't know how long 14 15 Mr West had been in the Safety Department I don't 15 16 know how much he knew about the OSHA regulations. I 16 17 don't know 17 18 MS WILLIAMS I was going to advise 18 19 Mr Patterson or ask him to please just wait just a 19 20 second after the question is asked to allow me a chance 20 21 to make an objection It will make it easier for the 21 22 court reporter Okay0 22 23 THE WITNESS Will do 23 24 BY MR COTTEN 24 25 Q So what you're saying is, you don't know 25 Page 79 1 whether Mr. West's assessment here is accurate or not? 1 2 MS. WILLIAMS. Objection, form. 2 3 THE WITNESS: I do not - 3 4 BY MR. COTTEN 4 5 Q Okay. Let me ask you like this: If it is 5 6 accurate, that's certainly something that should be 6 7 addressed in the Safety and Housekeeping Report, isn't 7 8 it? 8 9 MS WILLIAMS Objection 9 10 BY MR COTTEN 10 11 Q Something so serious that OSHA would shut 11 12 the whole plant down? 12 13 A You're asking me to speculate 13 14 MS. WILLIAMS: Objection, form. Chad, I 14 15 think you've asked him the same question about 20 times 15 16 BY MR. COTTEN 16 17 Q I'm not asking you whether or not it was in 17 18 there. I'm asking you, the --your understanding the 18 19 purpose of the Safety and Housekeeping Reports, 19 20 shouldn't it be in there? 20 21 MS WILLIAMS' Objection, form. You've 21 22 asked him that as well several times 22 23 THE WITNESS: I don't know the linkage of 23 24 that letter to the other study 24 25 25 21 (Pages 78 to 81) Page 80 BY MR COTTEN Q Okay. When you were going through the safety reports, did you specifically look for any safety reports from 1978? A No, I was looking just to see --looking for trends, that, were they what I would consider to be a functioning Safety Committee at the plant, and I concluded they were Q Okay. A From not just the safety analysis of their housekeeping issues, but the follow-up on other things that they were about, and the feedback from employees and to employees, from managers. Q Okay. You're familiar with this memo, you've seen this before, this case, right? A Not before this case, but a couple days ago, yes. Q You saw this a couple days ago? A Maybe a week ago. But I'm not familiar with it from the past. Q Okay. Have you seen it in other litigation? MS WILLIAMS: Objection, form THE WITNESS. I'm not certain --I guess the last deposition is where I saw it, three weeks ago Page 81 BY MR COTTEN Q Okay. And since that last deposition, you've gone and reviewed the Safety and Housekeeping Reports? A Not in connection with that report Q But you have done it? A I have looked over it, but it's a six-page report each month I didn't study it. Q So you did see this, and after that, you looked at the Safety and Housekeeping Reports? A Not in this -- Q But you didn't look for anything in connection with this? A Not in the same time period, not m the same sequence. I looked at the housekeeping reports; I glanced at that a couple days before. I wasn't looking to make a match. Q Okay. So you'd agree with me then, that the Safety and Housekeeping Reports, they don't have anything to do with this memo, which is Exhibit 5? A Possibly not, but possibly so I don't know Q You noted here -- and if you want, I'll show it to you again - that Mr. Painter notes that, "These deplorable conditions were not the first time HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM KENDALL WATSON PATTERSON P age 82 1 this has happened." Do you see that? 1 Q Are you familiar with the manufacturing 2 A I saw it 2 process of Haveg pipe, how it's made? 3 MS WILLIAMS Objection, form Are we 3 A In general, yes 4 going back over the same -- 4 Q Okay. What about Chemtite pipe? 5 MR FITZPATRICK You've read it three 6 times He s read it It's mthe record three times 5 A In general, yes 5 7 Do we have to read the language again! Q Okay. What are the differences in the 7 manufacturing between Haveg and Chemtite pipe? 8 MR COTTEN I want him to understand what 8 MS. WILLIAMS. Objection, form. 9 we're talking about That's all. 9 THE WITNESS: Haveg pipe, you mix asbestos 10 MS. WILLIAMS Chad, for the record -- 10 anthophyllite-asbestos with resin at 50/50 by weight 11 MR COTTEN It needs to be clear I have 11 After it's mixed, it's then put into moulds. Whether 12 learned from reading enough depositions that if you 12 you re moulding a fitting or whether you're moulding a 13 don't make it clear, you don't know what we're talking 13 tank or strips or bars or pipe, it's put into a mould 14 about, okay7 14 Then, under heat and pressure, it's allowed to 15 MS WILLIAMS Objection to the sidebar or 15 essentially react to become a dense, homogeneous 15 the form of the question I don't think it was a 16 one-phase material. Then it's taken out of the mould, 17 question But, whatever 17 perhaps processed a little bit more to take off any 18 BY MR COTTEN 18 rough edges, but then - then it's - in the case of 19 Q All right. So it's not the first time it's 19 pipe, it would be cut to length, 10 feet, generally, 20 happened. Have you looked for any other memos like this 20 plus or minus one foot. 21 one? 21 Chemtite, on the other hand, starts with 22 MS WILLIAMS Objection, form Objection, 22 blue crocidolite-asbestos paper. It's unrolled and it's 23 sidebar 23 taken through a bath of resin to saturate the 24 THE WITNESS I don't recall seeing another 24 resinjsic]. After the resin is - then after the roll 25 one like that one. 25 feeds through in a continuous way, some squeeze the roll P age 83 Page 85 BY MR. COTTEN Q Okay. Have you looked for any? to take off excess. The material is taken through a heating cycle then rolled up into small rolls, 50 pounds A I have got thousands - thousands o f memos. I've not searched it for that, no. each. These rolls then go to the pipe machine and are spiral and wound and wrapped, spiral fashion, around a Q Okay. How about, have you seen anything stainless steel mandrel that is the diameter o f - the written by Mr. Good along these same lines? inside diameter ~ the outside diameter o f the mandrel MS. WILLIAMS: Objection, form. becomes the inside diameter o f the pipe. THE WITNESS: Not that I recall. 9 BY MR. COTTEN 10 Q Okay. Is Mr. Good still alive? 11 A I don't know. 12 Q Mr. Painter --and I may have asked you 13 this but I forget - is he still alive? 14 A Yes, he is. 15 Q And I did ask you this, but I forgot what And you spiral-wind - the machine spiral-wmds the saturated asbestos paper up and down to 10 a seven-layers-thick material. Then that pipe is taken 11 through a couple stages of oven, elevated temperatures, 12 and cured and then cut. 13 Now the pipe is, at that point, a dense 14 homogeneous material, impervious, and ready for moving 15 over to the next piece you said. Where does he live? 16 BY MR. COTTEN 17 A Southern Delaware. 17 Q So the steel mandrel is taken out? 18 Q Okay. When's the last time you spoke with 18 A The steel mandrel is taken out. Mr. Painter? 19 Q Okay. A I have only spoken with him once, and that 20 A And the material, then, is the pipe would have been about two years, a year and half ago, 21 22 maybe. 22 Q Does the --I'm sorry. Were you done? A Yeah. Q Okay. So you didn't talk to him about 24 this? 25 A No, no. 23 Q Does the --with the papers put through 24 bath, okay, does it stay as one big sheet of paper or 25 does it dissolve into the bath? HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM KENDALL WATSON PATTERSON 23 (Pages 86 to 89) Page 86 Page 88 1 A It's continuous, and it stays as a sheet 1 connection to fit the pipe 2 Q Okay. 3 A But the material is saturating it. 2 Q Okay. So this is the anthophvllite stuff? 3 A Not necessarily I'm not sure 1haven't 4 Q Okay. 4 seen the exact makeup of the fitting, 5 A At 60 percent resin, and 40 percent 5 concentration-wise It's done on a mould The fittings 6 asbestos. 6 are moulded 7 Q Now, you said there's seven layers. How 7 Q Does it have asbestos in it? 8 thick is each layer? 8 A Yes 9 A Well, it depends on the size o f the pipe. 9 Q Okay. You don't know whether it's 10 Q Okay. 10 crocidolite or anthophyllite, though? 11 A If you've got a 4-inch pipe, there's more 11 A It's my belief that it would be what - 12 resin per layer because you've got the diameter, and 12 what is the same type, but it could be anthophyllite 13 more --more weight, if you would, o f material onto the 13 I'mjust not sure on that 14 mandrel than a 1-inch pipe. But the nominal --maybe a 14 Q When you say the same type -- 15 quarter-inch thick is the difference between the inside 15 A Crocidolite, yeah 16 diameter and the outside diameter, so the thickness, the 16 Q Okay. And is that because the processes 17 wall o f the pipe, is a quarter-inch, give or take. 17 that somebody is buying Chemtite pipe for requires 18 Q How many times does it need to be spun to 18 crocidolite as opposed to anthophyllite, or do you know? 19 make a layer? 19 A I don't know 20 A Well, I don't know, because I have not seen 20 Q Okay. What is a --do you know what a 21 the equipment, and I haven't seen the diagrams 21 repair sleeve is? 22 Q Okay. 22 A My understanding is that's for emergency 23 A But the write-up that I have seen indicates 23 repairs It's a fitting that slips over - you have to 24 it's spiral-wound so that you have overlaps and you keep 24 cut the pipe, put the sleeve over it, stick the other 25 it rather smooth 25 part of it back m and use a joint cement, cement them P age 87 Page 89 1 Q Okay. But you're not saying it's spun 1 together. 2 around seven times? 2 Q Do you know what that material is made out 3 A It's rotated around enough times where a 3 of? 4 10-foot section of pipe, any particular part of it, is 4 A I have not seen the material. 1think it's 5 seven thicknesses, on the outside to the inside 5 equivalent to a fitting. 6 diameter 6 Q Meaning, it's -- 7 Q So it's safe to say that it's basically a 7 A It's got resin and asbestos. 8 pipe that's made out of this paper that's been saturated 8 Q Paper? 9 with resin? 9 A Not paper. They cut it down to fibers 10 A That's correct 10 That's where I'm not sure. 11 Q Now, there's other parts to the Chemtite 11 Q Okay. 12 piping system - well, let me ask this: How are the 12 A I know that it's --it's a constant 13 different Chemtite pipes put together? How are they put 13 thick - you cut through it; it's one-phase. You 14 together? There are different sections. Let's say you 14 couldn't identify layers of paper m pipe or fittings 15 wanted to run 30 feet of it. 15 It's one-phase-looking when you cut it 16 A Well, there are a couple different ways, 16 Q Was there a point when Haveg used asbestos 17 but the primary way is they're threaded, and to use a 17 different from a fiber, different from anthophyllite 18 connector - 18 fiber to make its Haveg pipes? 19 Q Okay. 19 A There were trials run, I believe But I 20 A - to connect the threaded sections 20 have seen reference to some tremolite on the plant and 21 Q What's the connector made out of? 21 some amosite. But I have never seen documents saying 22 A A similar material 22 that the commercial pipe contained that. So I don't 23 Q Paper? 23 know 24 A No They can't spin a fitting, so it's a 24 Q What sizes could you buy Chemtite in? 25 Haveg type of material that is the threaded inside 25 A Chemtite for pressure pipe, of liquids, HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM KENDALL WATSON PATTERSON 24 (Pages 90 to 93) P age 90 P ag e 92 1 pumping liquid underpressure, was from 1-inch diameter 1 Q Right. 2 to a 4-inch diameter 2 A To make a fitting, they would chop up the 3 Q Would the pipe have always been the same 3 paper to get down to the fiber so they could mix it, 4 thickness, regardless o f the diameter? 4 highly intense, and then put it in a mould and mould it 5 A No. 5 You couldn't wrap it. It's too cumbersome, 6 Q Okay. It would be thicker as you got 6 geometrically, to wrap fittings. 7 larger? 7 Q Okay. What about joint cement? Was 8 A Yes I think the difference is something 8 that -- 9 like 05 inches. So, you know, if it's - if it's 25, 9 A It's a resin asbestos mixture. 10 that means it goes from 2 to 3-inches'thickness. It 10 Q Did Haveg make that? 11 goes up with the diameter, because you're putting more 11 A They did. 12 resin and more asbestos on the circumference, so you got 12 Q Okay. For a connection with their Chemtite 13 more thickness 13 pipes, right? 14 Q Okay. You talked about couplings. There 14 A Yes 15 were also Chemtite pipe flanges, correct? 15 Q How did they - how did they make their 16 A That is correct You could get it such 16 joint cement? 17 that you didn't have to thread it You could get a 17 A I don't know the exact way they formulated 18 flange that would slip into the flange and then, you 18 it. I have not seen equipment diagrams or equipment 19 know, glue it to the thing Sometimes that was the way 19 descriptions on that, but it was made by getting a 20 customers needed to have it, for some reason or another. 20 homogeneous mix and then packaging it in small packages 21 Q Now, was it possible to buy flanges 21 Q What was the joint cement for? 22 themselves and also pipes that had flanges on them, or 22 A Adhesion, so that the threads would - 23 would you -- 23 would be frozen in place and not leak under pressure 24 A Pipes would not have - 24 when you're pumping through it 25 MR. FITZPATRICK' Let him finish the 25 Q What was the brand name of Haveg joint P age 91 1 question before you start to answer, okay? 2 BY MR. COTTEN 3 Q That's the question. 4 A Pipe would be separate. We didn't sell it 5 with flanges attached. 6 Q Okay. What were the flanges made out of? 7 A In Chemtite, whenever they did flanges, 8 they were made o f the resin and the asbestos. 9 Q Meaning, the anthophyllite-asbestos? L0 A Yes, or crocidolite. I'm not - not that 10 11 many flanges, compared to threads. 11 12 Q Okay. 12 13 A So I have not studied nor have I seen 13 14 statistics on how much o f each and the details o f when 14 15 you'd used flanges and when you'd use threaded. But 15 16 most of it was threaded. 16 17 Q I'm sorry. To make Chemtite, did Haveg 17 18 ever just use crocidolite fibers? 18 19 A Loose fiber? 19 Q Yeah. 20 A No. 21 22 Q If they needed the fibers, what would they 22 23 do? Cut out the paper? 23 A No, they --they --oh, you mean -- you're 24 25 talking - for a fitting? 25 Page 93 cement? What did they call it? A I don't know that 1have seen the name. I have heard it as joint cement. But there was a name, I just don't recall it. Q Do you know what type of asbestos they used in the joint cement? A I know that anthophyllite was used in it, but it could have been some crocidolite. Ijust don't know. I don't recall it - MR FITZPATRICK: Don't start speculating. THE WITNESS Okay I do not recall that. BY MR COTTEN Q Is there any 6-inch Chemtite pipe? A There is for liquid, 1mean, for vapor-fume purpose, vents, and not for pumping liquid. MR COTTEN Let's go o ff the record for a second. (A brief recess was taken.) BY MR. COTTEN Q So there's 6-inch pipe, and it's for venting -- A From a reactor or something, where you've got gas going through, low pressure. Q Low pressure? A Low pressure. HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM KENDALL WATSON PATTERSON P age 94 Page 96 1 Q Is it made out of asbestos? 1 Q And Chemtite did make 3-inch threaded pipe? 2 A The 6-inch pipe is made of 60 percent resin 2 A Yes 3 and 40 percent crocidolite 3 Q And 2-inch threaded pipe? 4 Q Paper? 4 A That's correct 5 A Asbestos paper, yes 5 Q Did Haveg or Hercules ever do any dust 6 Q Okay. When they needed crocidolite fibers, 6 monitoring on the use of the joint cement that it was 7 we talked about them just getting them off the paper by 7 selling, the asbestos joint cement? 8 chopping the paper up, and that's actually what I'm 8 A I'm not aware of any 9 going to ask you is, how would they chop the paper up or 9 Q Where was the joint cement manufactured? 10 get the fibers from the paper; do you know? 10 A I'm not sure 11 A I have not seen how they did it 11 Q Was it there at the same Chemtite plant or 12 Q Okay. And you talked earlier that --you 12 at the same plant that Chemtite was being manufactured? 13 talked earlier about how the crocidolite was bought by 13 A I would be speculating 14 the --in a roll of paper? 14 Q Okay. Was Chemtite made anywhere else 15 A Yes 15 other than Marshallton, Delaware? 16 Q Okay. Do you know who Haveg was buying 16 A No. 17 their crocidolite paper from? 17 Q Was Haveg pipe made anywhere else other 18 A I know there were three suppliers, and as 18 than Marshallton, Delaware? 19 time went on there may have been others They were -- 19 A No 20 the three were Hollingsworth and Vose, the Strathmore 20 Q Were there any applications for which 21 Paper Company, and the Herty - H-E-R-T-Y - Foundation 21 somebody, an end-user, could use either Haveg or 22 Q On Exhibit 5 --yeah, Exhibit 5 --that we 22 Chemtite and both would be appropriate? 23 talked about earlier, it was noted that the paper rolls 23 A I believe there were, yes 24 were bare and without covering, in violation of the 24 Q What would those be? Give me some 25 asbestos regulations. Do you know why the asbestos 25 examples. Page 95 P age 97 1 paper rolls were supposed to be covered with plastic? 1 A Hydrochloric acid could be done that way 2 A I do not. 2 Sulphuric acid, 1think, could be done that way 1 3 Q Okay. 3 don't know others, exactly There's a - you've got 4 MS WILLIAMS Objection, form 4 charts that have, for both types of products, 5 BY MR. COTTEN 5 suitability when you'd use --for various chemicals, 6 Q What about a socket-T? Do you know what 6 when you'd use EB or when you'd use PB, that type of 7 that is, for Chemtite pipe? 7 thing 8 A Yeah. When you wanted to take a pipe and 8 Q Do you know when --let me ask you this: 9 run it into a T and have both sides o f the T have 9 You talked earlier about how Haveg bought the Chemtite 10 additional pipe. 10 name and process from Johns-Manville, correct? 11 Q Okay. 11 A That's correct 12 A So it's a standard pipe fitting 12 Q Did Johns-Manville ever manufacture and 13 Q And how would a socket-T be manufactured 13 sell Chemtite pipe? 14 for Chemtite? 14 A They did 15 A I don't know 15 Q Okay. And the manufacturing process that 16 Q You don't know whether it's -- 16 Johns-Manville used for Chemtite pipe would have been 17 A I don't know whether - I think it was 17 the same as that, that Haveg used, correct? 18 cast, but, I mean, I do not know. 18 A Only at the end, necessarily Because my 19 Q Did they contain asbestos? 19 understanding is that, from the documents, that they 20 MR. FITZPATRICK' Don't speculate. 20 transferred the pipe - 1mean, the equipment for 21 THE WITNESS I don't know. 21 Chemtite that was being made at the time of transaction 22 BY MR. COTTEN 22 How many years before that, there may have been some 23 Q Okay. Did Chemtite make any 8-inch pipes? 23 different equipment used by Johns-Manville I do not 24 A They did, and it was also for vent purpose, 24 know But I know that at the time of the transition and 25 and it was also for low-pressure gas 25 the transfer of technology, the equipment used there was HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM KENDALL WATSON PATTERSON P ag e 98 1 taken apart, marked very carefully, taken to Marshall 1 2 and re-installed, as it was before, at Johns-Manville 2 3 Q There were PB --Chemtite PB and 3 4 Chemtite --what was the other one? 4 5 A EB. 5 6 Q And the difference there is phenolic-blend, 6 7 epoxy-blend? 7 8 A Yes 8 9 Q If Johns-Manville had conducted tests on 9 10 Chemtite pipe where they sawed it to measure the amount 10 11 of dust that was released when sawing it, there's no 11 12 reason Haveg couldn't have done that as well, right? 12 13 MS WILLIAMS Objection, form 13 14 THE WITNESS I'm not aware that 14 15 Johns-Manville did that 15 IS BY MR COTTEN 16 17 Q Okay. If Johns-Manville did, certainly 17 18 Haveg could have too, right? 18 19 MS WILLIAMS Objection, form 19 20 THE WITNESS I don't know what --how they 20 21 would have done what they did That's --I don't know 21 22 BY MR COTTEN 22 23 Q Well, Haveg certainly had the ability to 23 24 take area samples for asbestos, correct? 24 25 A Yes 25 Page 99 1 Q Okay. Did they ever take any personal 1 2 samples out there at the plant? 2 3 A They did 3 4 Q Okay. When did they start doing that? 4 5 A The first time I saw it I think was in '66, 5 6 that report 6 7 Q Was that an insurance carrier's report? 7 8 A Yes 8 9 Q So since they could take personal area 9 10 samples in '66, they could have - Haveg certainly could 10 11 have taken personal and area samples for sawing Chemtite 11 12 pipe, right? 12 13 MS WILLIAMS Objection, form 13 14 THE WITNESS I don't know 14 15 BY MR COTTEN 15 16 Q You don't know any reason why they couldn't 16 17 have done it? 17 18 A I don't know of any, no 18 19 Q Okay. Would you like to see that 19 20 Johns-Manville had conducted any dust measurements on 20 21 Chemtite pipe? Would you like to see them and know what 21 22 they were? 22 23 MS WILLIAMS Objection, form Do you 23 24 have something to show him7 24 25 THE WITNESS Do you have something9 25 26 (Pages 98 to 101) Page 100 BY MR. COTTEN Q Well, I'm asking, just first of all, if you think it's important. MS. WILLIAMS: Objection, form. THE WITNESS: I have not seen any -- MS. WILLIAMS: How does he know what's important if he hasn't seen anything? That's a silly question. MR. COTTEN: I don't think it's a silly question. BY MR. COTTEN Q I mean, you can see why they might not be relevant, correct? MS. WILLIAMS: Objection, form. THE WITNESS: I mean, I would be dealing in speculation here. MR. COTTEN: Okay. I do have some. I'll let you see them. Why don't we take a break. It's kind of long. So you can take your time and look over them. They're hard to read, okay? MR. FITZPATRICK: Let's take a break where he can take a break and not read, and then we can read them. MR. COTTEN: Yes. (A brief recess was taken.) Page 101 BY MR COTTEN Q Okay, sir. This case is set for December the 12th. Are you planning on coming to Dallas, in person, for the trial? A We haven't talked about the exact timing but I'm in discussions with that, yes. Q Okay. You're available, though, like the week or two after the 5th? A Yes. Q Okay. Do you know who Kyle Dodson is? A Yes. Q Who is he? A An industrial hygienist Q Have you met him before? A Once. Q When did you meet him? A About --over nine months ago. Q Nine months ago. Where did you meet him? A In Dallas. Q In what context did you meet him? A He was there with --I was with attorneys, and he was in the building with other attorneys Q Was there a trial going on? A I'm not sure Q Okay. HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM KENDALL WATSON PATTERSON 27 (Pages 102 to 105) Page 102 Page 104 1 A Not involving me. 1 A Not - not specific to those details, no. 2 Q I certainly don't want to hear anything to 2 Q Did he tell you that he had attended a Work 3 do with what you guys were talking --or what you were 3 Practice Study that was done to measure the amounts of 4 talking to these attorneys about, okay? All I want to 4 asbestos dust released on phenolic pipe? 5 know is what you and Mr. Dodson talked about. All 5 A We didn't talk about places he had been or 6 right? 6 things he had done. I do recall talking about the 7 A Okay. 7 subject, but not the specifics of any Work Practice 8 Q So you guys had a meeting? 8 Study. 9 A Short 9 Q Okay. 10 Q You understood he was an industrial 10 A I have not. 11 hygienist? 11 Q So you guys talked about the subj'ect of 12 A Yes. 12 asbestos-containing phenolic pipe? 13 Q How did you know that? Did he tell you? 13 A Asbestos, in general. But I don't recall 14 A He told me, yes. 14 ever hearing the term "Work Practice Study," of 15 Q Okay. What did you guys talk about? 15 knowledge. 16 A I asked him some questions about what he 16 Q Okay. What about, were you aware that he 17 did and how he did things, in general Just - I'm not 17 conducted -- he attended an experiment or that he had 18 an industrial hygienist, and I have an appreciation for 18 conducted a --he had gone to a laboratory where 19 those who are. But at the time, it was not - not a lot 19 somebody else had sawed and cut into phenolic asbestos 20 of time for detailed, heavy discussion. A short 20 pipe and measured the amount of asbestos dust that was 21 meeting. 21 created there by doing -- 22 0 Okay. When you mean "what he did," you 22 MS. WILLIAMS: Objection, form. 23 mean, what he did as an industrial hygienist? 23 THE WITNESS: I was --I'm aware that he -- 24 A Well, how he did his work, how he 24 he mentioned something about that subject. We did not 25 interfaced with industry 25 talk about the -- where it was or --or other things. Page 103 Page 105 1 Q Okay. Are you aware that Dr. Dodson or 1 He --I didn't get into that much depth. 2 Mr. Dodson, or whatever -- 2 BY MR. COTTEN 3 MR FITZPATRICK Mister 3 Q Okay. Well, what did he tell you about 4 BY MR COTTEN 4 that? 5 Q Okay. I don't want to --General Dodson -- 5 MS. WILLIAMS: Objection, form. 6 Mr. Dodson was present at a Materials - at an MAS - a 6 THE WITNESS: I think the only thing that 7 Work Practice Study that was done on phenolic pipe; are 7 sticks in my head is that when phenolic plastic pipe was 8 you aware of that? 8 cut, the resin stays encapsulated. It does not free up 9 MS WILLIAMS Objection, form 9 asbestos fiber. 10 THE WITNESS I'm not aware of the context 10 BY MR. COTTEN 11 of that I understand he knows a good bit about 11 Q Okay. 12 phenolic pipe 12 A But as far as the details surrounding any 13 BY MR COTTEN 13 study, I have not seen that. 14 Q Okay. Do you know that he has attended a 14 Q Or talked to him about it? 15 Work Practice Study done by Dr. William Longo? Did you 15 A About the details about that, no. 16 know that? 16 Q All right. Did he tell you that -- about 17 A I have not seen reference to it or talked 17 any dust samples he has taken from the cutting of 18 to him about it, no 18 phenolic asbestos pipe? 19 Q Okay. So you didn't know that? 19 A No. 20 A No 20 Q Did he tell you that he's taken such dust 21 Q Okay. And you've never spoken with him 21 studies before? 22 about that? 22 A We didn't talk about it. 23 A About9 23 MS. WILLIAMS: Objection. 24 Q The dust study on phenolic pipe that 24 THE WITNESS: And I didn't ask; he didn't 25 Dr. Longo did that Mr. Dodson attended. 25 say it; we didn't cover it. HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM KENDALL WATSON PATTERSON Page 106 1 BY MR. COTTEN 1 2 Q Did you guys discuss the differences, if 2 3 there are any, between different types of phenolic 3 4 asbestos pipes? 4 5 A I wasn't seeking to become an industrial 5 6 hygienist at that point at all. So, no, we didn't 6 7 Q Okay. You understand that Mr. Dodson has 7 8 been retained as an expert before by Hercules, correct? 8 9 A 1have been told --yes. I am under that 9 10 understanding. 10 11 MS WILLIAMS: Objection, form. 11 12 BY MR COTTEN 12 13 Q And is it your understanding that 13 14 Mr. Dodson is not a --has not been retained as an 14 15 expert by Hercules in this case? 15 16 A I don't know about that. I have not talked 16 17 about it I don't know. 17 18 Q Okay. You know, we've talked a lot about 18 19 Haveg, Hercules, and I want to try to actually pin this 19 20 down. Champlain Cable, what's Champlain Cable? 20 21 A Okay. Champlain Cable was a company that 21 22 was formed in 1980. It was already - it already had 22 23 some assets that didn't go with the sale, weren't going 23 24 to go with the sale to Ametek from Haveg Industries. 24 25 So these assets, since the name "Haveg 25 Page 107 1 Industries" went with the Marshallton plant and that 1 2 business that Ametek bought -- 2 3 Q Uh-huh. 3 4 A --those residual assets that stayed with 4 5 Hercules had to be given a new name. 5 6 Q Okay. 6 7 A That's the formation o f Champlain Cable, in 7 8 1980. 8 9 Q Is Champlain Cable also a wholly-owned 9 10 subsidiary o f Hercules? 10 11 A It, I think, was. But it's been sold to 11 12 someone else later. And I think 1988 was the year. 12 13 Q Do you know who it was sold to? 13 14 A Yes. A company named Huber, H-U-B-E-R -- 14 15 and Suhner, S-U-H-N-E-R --I think. 15 16 Q Now, Hercules sold Haveg to Ametek? 16 17 A It was a transaction between the three 17 18 companies and that effect was Ametek took the process, 18 19 the equipment, the plant location, the business, the 19 20 name "Haveg," and the employees went with it as well. 20 21 Q Okay. And what did Hercules keep? 21 22 A The residual assets that became Champlain 22 23 Cable - 23 24 Q Uh-huh. 24 25 A --and so they renamed it "Champlain 25 28 (Pages 106 to 109) Page 108 Cable" Q Hercules also retained the liabilities of Haveg for the manufacturing, sale, supply of asbestos-containing Haveg products? A Yes Q Before 1980; is that correct? A That's correct. Q So-- MR FITZPATRICK Let me make a belated objection You're asking him for a legal conclusion BY MR COTTEN Q Well, here's what I'm getting at: Is Hercules going to come into trial and, as part of its defense say that they're not responsible for Haveg's asbestos-containing products? MR FITZPATRICK And you don't answer that question, I do We are not going to come into trial and take that position MR COTTEN Fair enough BY MR COTTEN Q Have you ever had any position with Champlain Cable? A None Q Okay. But you're here as a corporate representative for Champlain Cable? And I'm just making Page 109 it clear -A That's correct. Q --for the record. Okay. The Johns-Manvilie stuff that I showed you --which we'll mark as Exhibit 6 - and I specifically want to ask you about the two pages in front of you. (Patterson Exhibit Number 6 marked for identification.) BY MR. COTTEN Q Okay. You'll note that they're talking about Chemtite. If you'll look up at the top. MS. WILLIAMS: Objection. THE WITNESS' They are BY MR COTTEN Q And you'll also note that they're talking about conducting a test with the band saw, right? A A table saw, is what it says. Q A table saw? A Yes. Q Okay. Can you tell me what the results are of the dust measurement that they did? MS. WILLIAMS. Objection, form. Lack of foundation. There's a lot of problems with that question, but object to form. This whole line of questioning, actually. HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM KENDALL WATSON PATTERSON Page 110 1 THE WITNESS You've got the analysis ~ 1 2 MR. FITZPATRICK Wait Just tell him what 2 3 numbers you can read 3 4 THE WITNESS For example, on the one 4 5 that's dated at the top, S3-NG 5 6 BY MR COTTEN 6 7 Q Okay. W ell, you know what -- 7 8 A These columns here - 8 9 Q Okay. 9 10 A I'm trying to figure out -- 10 11 Q A ctually, let me lay a foundation for this, 11 12 and th en w e 'll com e back and an sw er th is qu estion . 12 13 First o f all, you've looked at these 13 14 docum ents --we'll mark them as Exhibit 5[sic| --and 14 15 th ey are B ates-stam p ed C R M C -H R C L -003158 th rou gh -- could 15 16 I see those real quick? --okay. T his is E xhibit 6, 16 17 then --through Bates stamp CRM C-HRCL-003186. Okay. 17 18 And I'm specifically, out o f this group o f docum ents, 18 19 goin g to ask you abou t B ates stam p n u m ber 19 20 C R M C -H R C L -003165, and B ates stam p n u m ber en d in g in th e 20 21 four numbers 3186. So you can just refer to them as 21 22 3165 or 3186. 22 23 A Okay 23 24 Q And the first on e I'll ask you about is the 24 25 one en d in g in th e fou r nu m b ers 3165. O kay. 25 Page 111 1 MS. WILLIAMS. Chad, just for the record, 1 2 this is a document that is not a Hercules or Haveg 2 3 document. The witness has not seen this document until 3 4 you showed it to him about five minutes ago And so the 4 5 document would speak for itself. But go ahead with your 5 6 question. 6 7 MR. COTTEN: Right. It was a little longer 7 8 than five minutes. Maybe 20. 8 9 BY MR. COTTEN 9 10 Q Okay. Now, you're looking a t - - what's the 10 11 last four numbers? 11 12 A 3165. 12 13 Q Okay. You're looking at 3165. Can you 13 14 note under there the results on that test? 14 15 MR. FITZPATRICK. Object to the form of the 15 16 question. You're asking him to assume that some o f this 16 17 is results. But he can tell you what he reads. 17 18 BY MR COTTEN 18 19 Q Do you see what the numbers are? 19 20 A I see Sample Date. 20 21 Q Okay. 21 22 A And then I see Analysis, MPPCF 22 23 Q Okay. 23 24 A Or, "Other." And then it's got two numbers 24 25 on it. 25 29 (Pages 110 to 113) Page 112 Q What are they? A Well, is that two different samples9 What does that mean? Q Well, what are the numbers? A 115 and 12 0. MS WILLIAMS: Objection, form. Lacks foundation. BY MR COTTEN Q Okay. And what's the date of this sample? A 3/26/62. Q Okay. Could I see it back real quick? (Document to Mr. Cotten.) BY MR. COTTEN Q Now, you know, we're looking at particular pages, okay -- A Okay. Q -- of Exhibit 6. You reviewed the entire set of pages, though, correct? MR. FITZPATRICK' I'm going to object to the form of - calling it review, I think, overstates the quick glance that he gave it BY MR. COTTEN Q Okay. The quick glance. You've seen them, though? You got a chance to look at them? And if you want, we'll go olT and he can look at them a little bit Page 113 more? A I can't read a bunch o f them because they're too - the copy is illegible But I Q Okay. A - I tried, and I tried Q So you're going to agree with me, though, that these are dust samples for asbestos, correct? MS. WILLIAMS. Objection, form. THE WITNESS I don't know what they are BY MR. COTTEN Q Okay. That's fair enough. A It doesn't say MR. FITZPATRICK' You answered. You don't know what they are. THE WITNESS' I don't know what they are BY MR. COTTEN Q They're sampling something, though, correct? MS. WILLIAMS' Objection, form. BY MR COTTEN Q You'd agree with that? MS. WILLIAMS. Objection, form THE WITNESS: I don't know' what they are. BY MR. COTTEN Q Okay. You don't know --you don't have any HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM KENDALL WATSON PATTERSON Page 114 1 idea what they are? 1 2 MS. WILLIAMS Objection, form 2 3 BY MR COTTEN 3 4 Q Let me ask you like this, okay? We'll just 4 5 attach it. You saw earlier, Exhibit 4 was the Dupont 5 6 measurement of machining Haveg; do you remember that? 6 7 A Okay 7 8 MS WILLIAMS Objection, form 8 9 BY MR COTTEN 9 10 Q If DuPont was able to measure the amount of 10 11 dust created by machining Haveg, there's no reason that 11 12 Haveg couldn't have conducted the same dust samples - 12 13 MR FITZPATRICK Objection, asked and 13 14 answered 14 15 BY MR COTTEN 15 16 Q Is that correct? 16 17 MS WILLIAMS Objection, form 17 18 THE WITNESS I don't know what conditions 18 19 that DuPont was using I don't know what conditions at 19 20 all 20 21 BY MR COTTEN 21 22 Q Okay. If Johns-Manville was sawing 22 23 Chemtite in 1962 to see how much dust was -- asbestos 23 24 dust was released by sawing it, there's no reason that 24 25 Haveg couldn't have conducted those same type of tests 25 Page 115 1 in the 1970s, correct? 1 2 MS. WILLIAMS. Objection, form. 2 3 MR. FITZPATRICK: Objection, form. 3 4 THE WITNESS. I don't know the conditions 4 5 of that test whatsoever. 5 6 BY MR. COTTEN 6 7 Q Why would it make a difference to know the 7 8 conditions of the test as to whether or not you could 8 9 conduct a test? 9 10 A There are a number of possibilities that, 10 11 in speculating --is that pilot material? 11 12 MR FITZPATRICK: Don't speculate 12 13 THE WITNESS: I don't know what it is 13 14 BY MR. COTTEN 14 15 Q Well, you know what, I'm not even going to 15 16 ask - I don't really ~ this question is not dealing 16 17 with what the results are. Let's leave that aside. 17 18 What I'm trying to see is, is there any reason Haveg 18 19 couldn't have conducted its own tests? 19 20 MS. WILLIAMS: Objection, form. 20 21 THE WITNESS I'm not certain. 21 22 BY MR. COTTEN 22 23 Q Okay. Do you know of any special type of 23 24 equipment that Johns-Manville had that allowed it to 24 25 measure the amounts of asbestos dust that would be 25 30 (Pages 114 to 117) Page 116 created by sawing Chemtite that wasn't available to Haveg? MS. WILLIAMS: Objection, form THE WITNESS: "Sawing" is a general term with many types of saws, many types of speeds, many types of variables. I don't know any of those. BY MR COTTEN Q Okay. Regardless of the type of saw, the type of speed, you'd agree with me that - and you've already said this -- but Haveg never conducted any tests of how much asbestos dust is released from sawing Chemtite, regardless of the type of saw, correct? MS. WILLIAMS: Objection, form THE WITNESS: I have never seen data to that effect. Correct. BY MR COTTEN Q And that leads you to conclude that they didn't do any tests, right? MS. WILLIAMS. Objection, form. THE WITNESS. 1think so BY MR COTTEN Q Okay. So now, regardless of the type of saw, table saw, regardless of the type of table saw, is there any reason that --is there any special equipment or knowledge that Johns-Manville had that would have Page 117 enabled it to measure the type or the amount of asbestos dust released from putting a table saw in Chemtite, and wouldn't allowed Haveg to conduct the same type of test? MR FITZPATRICK Asked and answered MS WILLIAMS Objection, form THE WITNESS I still don't know the answer BY MR COTTEN Q Okay. Sitting here today, do you think that Haveg should have conducted dust tests to see how much asbestos dust was released through sawing and cutting Chemtite type? MR FITZPATRICK Object to form MS WILLIAMS Objection, form THE WITNESS Not necessarily BY MR COTTEN Q Okay. Why not? A Haveg warned that if you modified the pipe it was possible you could create airborne dust If that was the case, it refers you to the Worker Protection part of the OSHA statements We didn't know all of the possibilities that people would use Haveg didn't know how many different conditions and different things that could cause variables But we were dealing with a very HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM KENDALL WATSON PATTERSON Page 118 1 sophisticated customer base who saw the thing that said 1 2 it's possible it may, may, create airborne dust, and we 2 3 directed to the attention, to that We weren't 3 4 attempting to cover every single eventuality, because we 4 5 don't know I'm sure they didn't know all the 5 6 possibilities. 6 7 BY MR COTTEN 7 8 Q Okay. But Haveg didn't conduct any tests, 8 9 so they didn't know of any eventuality, correct? 9 10 A I have not seen that they knew of -- yeah, 10 11 I don't 11 12 Q And you'd agree with me that you don't 12 13 know --you don't need to know every single eventuality 13 14 to at least know some? 14 15 A We believed --Haveg, I think, saw the size 15 16 of the particles and was not of the belief we were 16 17 creating asbestos dust 17 18 Q Okay. Was not of the belief that you were 18 19 creating asbestos -- 19 20 A When you sawed a pipe 20 21 Q Okay. Do you think that, considering the 21 22 fact that - you know, we talked about in Exhibit S, 22 23 considering the fact that there's obviously an awareness 23 24 by Mr. Painter and Mr. West and Mr. Good that asbestos 24 25 was being released into the atmosphere in connection 25 Page 119 1 with the manufacturing of Haveg asbestos products, do 1 2 you think that there should have been an increased 2 3 awareness by Haveg to look at the amount of asbestos 3 4 that's created by machining its products? 4 5 MR FITZPATRICK: Objection. 5 6 MS. WILLIAMS: Objection, form 6 7 THE WITNESS: Haveg has loose asbestos at 7 8 different places in the process. There's stuff in the 8 9 air that they're trying to, you know, eliminate by 9 10 sampling. I have not seen, I repeat, dust, by 10 11 individual pieces of equipment. 11 12 MR. COTTEN. Okay Object to the 12 13 nonresponsive portion. 13 14 BY MR. COTTEN 14 15 Q You know, I'm not -- 15 16 MR COTTEN: And can we go off the record 16 17 for a second? 17 18 MR. FITZPATRICK: I don't want to go off 18 19 the record 19 20 MR. COTTEN- Okay. I'm not trying to 20 21 harass you or anything. Ijust need to get an answer to 21 22 certain questions. I don't want to sit here and object 22 23 to nonresponsive every time you say something, okay? 23 24 And so I'm trying just to get answers. 24 25 THE WITNESS: I understand 25 31 (Pages 118 to 121) Page 120 MR. FITZPATRICK: And he's trying to MS. WILLIAMS: Object to the sidebar. He is answering your questions. You may not like them. MR. COTTEN: Well, you know, I'm trying to get this over with without having an objection after every single answer, okay? MS. WILLIAMS: That's the first time -- MR. COTTEN: And I'm not trying to have a sidebar, which is why I tried to go off the record, but we didn't want to do that. So on that, could you read back the last question I asked, please. (The court reporter read back the question, "Okay. Do you think that considering the fact that -- you know, we talked about in Exhibit 5, considering the fact that there's obviously an awareness by Mr. Painter and Mr. West and Mr. Good that asbestos was being released into the atmosphere in connection with the manufacturing o f Haveg asbestos products, do you think that there should have been an increased awareness by Haveg to look at the amount of asbestos that's created by machining its products?") MR. FITZPATRICK: Read his answer, please. MS. WILLIAMS: Objection, form. Oh, I'm sorry - Page 121 (The court reporter read back the answer, "Haveg has loose asbestos at different places in the process There's stuff m the air that they're trying to, you know, eliminate by sampling I have not seen, 1 repeat, dust, by individual pieces of equipment") MR FITZPATRICK I think it was entirely responsive MR COTTEN 1don't think it's responsive at all And so 1object, nonresponsive BY MR COTTEN Q Okay. Obviously, Mr. Painter and Mr. West think, in 1978, that Haveg is letting asbestos into the atmosphere, and that if OSHA were to show up they'd shut the plant down; you'd agree with that? MS WILLIAMS Objection, form THE WITNESS They said that BY MR COTTEN Q Okay. A I don't agree, necessarily, with the premise that they use Q Okay. They said that, though? A That's what they said Q Okay. Considering that the Safety Coordinator at the plant says that about the asbestos being released into the atmosphere during the HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM KENDALL WATSON PATTERSON Page 122 1 manufacturing process, don't you think that Haveg should 1 2 have also gone back and made sure that when you cut the 2 3 products, that you knew how much asbestos was being 3 4 released then as well, since so much was being released 4 5 during the manufacturing process? 5 6 MS WILLIAMS Objection, form 6 7 THE WITNESS Cutting would not be the 7 8 biggest factor in those numbers 8 9 MR COTTEN Okay Objection, 9 10 nonresponsive 10 11 BY MR COTTEN 11 12 Q Do you think --don't you think that you 12 13 have to take a test to see how much asbestos is released 13 14 from the sawing of Haveg Chemtite pipe? 14 15 MS WILLIAMS Objection, form 15 16 THE WITNESS We took samples from '72, 16 17 when OSHA was formed, all the way through the '70s We 17 18 made corrections, improvements, and capital 18 19 expenditures, including equipment, and reduced the dust 19 20 MR COTTEN Objection, nonresponsive. 20 21 BY MR COTTEN 21 22 Q Haveg didn't take any samples from the 22 23 cutting of Chemtite, correct? 23 24 A I have not seen samples from the cutting of 24 25 the Chemtite pipe 25 Page 123 1 Q Okay. In order to know how much asbestos 1 2 is released from cutting Chemtite pipe, didn't Haveg 2 3 have to sample cutting Chemtite pipe? 3 4 MS WILLIAMS' Objection, form. 4 5 THE WITNESS. I think they were looking at 5 6 area samples, and if the area sample was low - I don't 6 7 know the answer to your question. I really don't. 7 8 MR. COTTEN: Okay. Objection, 8 9 nonresponsive. 9 10 MR. FITZPATRICK: "I don't know," the 10 11 answer to your question, is nonresponsive? 11 12 MS. WILLIAMS: He said he doesn't know 12 13 MR COTTEN: The first part, about the area 13 14 sampling, was nonresponsive 14 15 BY MR. COTTEN 15 16 Q Did Haveg conduct any area samplings due to 16 17 the cutting of Chemtite pipe? 17 18 MS WILLIAMS: Objection, form Asked and 18 19 answered 19 20 THE WITNESS: If they were sampling - what 20 21 I'm trying to say, if they were sampling a plant, and at 21 22 the time, cutting was on, and the plant was - to sample 22 23 a number of places around, they're picking up anything, 23 24 any source that's putting stuff in the air. 24 25 MR. COTTEN. Okay 25 32 (Pages 122 to 125) Page 124 THE WITNESS: And picking it up. BY MR. COTTEN Q Okay. So are you saying that Chemtite was fabricated at the plant in the same way that it would be fabricated by end-users? A No. MS. WILLIAMS. Objection, form. BY MR. COTTEN Q Okay. So if they were taking area samples at the Chemtite plant, they wouldn't be relevant to the area samples that one would take when the plant[sic] is being cut by end-users, correct? A We were looking at the - Mr. Painter's letter refers to "at our plant," not our customers' plant. MR COTTEN. Objection, nonresponsive. BY MR. COTTEN Q Certainly, Mr. Painter, in his letter or memo, notes that there is a problem with the amount of asbestos dust being released during the manufacturing process of Haveg and Chemtite pipe, right? A At that point in time. Q Okay. MS. WILLIAMS. Form. Page 125 BY MR COTTEN Q Because there's a problem with excessive asbestos created during the manufacturing process, don't you think that Haveg should have made sure how much asbestos was being created during the fabricating process by the end-user? MS WILLIAMS And hang on a second I'm going to object to the form And at this point, Chad, you've asked him this question and a variation of this question --we're going on an hour now, and I think that you're starting to harass the witness And I'm going to instruct him to not answer the question You can move to a different topic now BY MR COTTEN Q What's your answer? MS WILLIAMS And I'm instructing Mr Patterson not to answer that question You're harassing the witness MR COTTEN Well, let me say this I've tried to get a straight answer on that I tried not to object to nonresponsiveness, that didn't work Now you're instructing him not to answer, and that's fine I don't think that that's proper I think the question is obvious, and I don't think it's been answered MS WILLIAMS Well, I disagree with you, HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM KENDALL WATSON PATTERSON Page 126 Page 128 1 and the record will reflect -- 1 A Well, actually, there are two reports 2 MR. COTTEN. Yes, it will. 2 There's a Plant Safety Committee Report, and then 3 MS. WILLIAMS - it has been answered 3 there's a Safety and Housekeeping Report. It's 45 of 4 multiple times. 4 the first, and some number, about that, for the second 5 MR COTTEN: Yes, it will reflect it. 5 Q Okay. So 90, in total? 6 MS WILLIAMS: --tried to get an answer 6 A Something in that order, yes 7 that you like. 7 Q So one is a Safety and one is a 8 BY MR COTTEN 8 Housekeeping? 9 Q And just to be clear, you're not going to 9 A Yes. 10 answer the last question? 11 A I'm not. 10 Q Were they put out monthly? 11 A They were. But I didn't have all the 12 Q Okay. When's the last time you've given a 12 months. 13 deposition in an asbestos case? 13 Q Okay. When did they start? What date? 14 A November the 2nd. 14 A There were actually - the first one, the 15 Q Was that a case involving Chemtite pipe? 15 Plant Safety Committee Reports, were actually going on 16 A It was. 16 when we made the acquisition --Hercules made the 17 Q What facility? If you know. 17 acquisition o f Haveg in 1964 And they continued until 18 MS. WILLIAMS: Objection, form. 18 the time of sale to Ametek. But I don't have the 19 THE WITNESS- At a - that's what I don't 19 representative number for every year in there. 20 know It was down -- 20 Q Okay. Do you have reports from every year? 21 MS. WILLIAMS. I don't think anybody knows. 21 A No. 22 THE WITNESS: Nobody knows. The record of 22 Q Did you ask for specific months or a 2 3 employment was so varied that the customer for which the 23 specific number? 2 4 Chemtite pipe would have been exposed from, was not 24 A No, I got what was --had been produced. 25 clear 25 Q Okay. Do you know if there's any more of Page 127 Page 129 1 BY MR. COTTEN 1 these Safety or Housekeeping Reports in existence? 2 Q What did you bring with you to your 3 deposition today? 4 A The three copies o f the biographical 2 A I do not know. 3 Q Did you do anything to see whether or not 4 there were any more in existence? 5 sketch. 5 A No, I did not. 6 Q You went to review these Safety and 6 7 Housekeeping Reports the last couple weeks, right? 7 Q You asked for these reports, correct? A I said, "What do we have?" 8 A Among other things, I looked at them, yes. 8 Q Okay. 9 Q Okay. Where did you go to look at those? 9 A The thing was --"Here's what we produced." 10 A I have them in my files. 10 Q After it was produced and you noted it 11 Q Your files are where? 11 wasn't everything, you didn't say, "This isn't 12 A In my house. 12 everything? Is there anything else?" 13 Q Why did you have them in your files? 14 A Because I was given them for the last 13 A I didn't ask that question, no. 14 Q Okay. Are they dated consecutively, or do 15 deposition. 15 they jump around? 16 Q Do you know where they were gotten from? 16 A Jump around, and some years don't have any. 17 A They were given to me by my attorney. 17 But there was a continuity in terms o f the activity, 18 Q Did you ask for them? 19 A It was in the context o f what I need to 18 obviously continued. 19 Q There was a Safety Committee and a 20 see, want to see. Yes, I did ask for them. 20 Housekeeping Committee? 21 Q Okay. 22 THE WITNESS: What do you have? 21 A I think the Housekeeping Report was a 22 subset o f a Safety Committee, because it was a separate 23 BY MR. COTTEN 23 report. 1did not note when it started, or put them in 24 Q And there are -- you said there are about 24 chronological order. 25 45 of them? 25 Q Did Mr. Painter sit on the Housekeeping HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM KENDALL WATSON PATTERSON Page 130 1 Committee? 1 2 A I don't know 2 3 Q Did he sit on the Safety Committee? 3 4 A He was not there the entire time He -- 4 5 you know, it started '64 to 1980 Different people came 5 6 and went as a rotational type of thing, the membership 6 7 of the committee 7 8 Q During the time he was there, did 8 9 Mr. Painter sit on the committee? 9 10 A Some of them But whether he sat on all of 10 11 them, since 1don't have all the reports, I don't know 11 12 Q Okay. On the ones you have from the years 12 13 that Mr. Painter was there, he was --he was a member of 13 14 the committee, Safety Committee? 14 15 A There were some times 1saw his name, yes 15 16 Q Okay. 16 17 A But I did not have all of them so I don't 17 18 know if he was on the committee during the years I'm 18 19 missing 19 20 Q Well, you would expect while he's there at 20 21 the plant as a Safety Coordinator that he would have 21 22 been on the Safety Committee, right? 22 23 A Not necessarily 23 24 Q How many people were on the Safety 24 25 Committee? 25 Page 131 1 A Like, 12. 1 2 Q How was it decided who would be on the 2 3 Safety Committee? 3 4 A It's my understanding, from my reading, 4 5 that each area nominated one to come from their area. 5 6 So that was like, different treatment areas or different 6 7 manufacturing areas, and then one from engineering, one 7 8 from the research group, and a couple of supervisor-type 8 9 folks. 9 10 Q Did you note Mr. Good's name as being on 10 11 the Safety Committee on any of the -- 11 12 A Some of the times, he was in there, yes 12 13 Some of the reports I read 13 14 Q And let me ask you this: Why would you not 14 15 necessarily think that the Safety Coordinator should be 15 16 sitting on the Safety Committee? 16 17 A Part of the time he was Safety Coordinator 17 18 he had some other duties in the Engineering Department. 18 19 And I --it's not - the Safety Coordinator doesn't run 19 20 everything This committee was -- the plant engineer 20 21 often was the one that was the chairman of the 21 22 committee. 22 23 Q Okay. 23 24 A So it wasn't a safety function. It was a 24 25 plant function on behalf of plant safety 25 34 (Pages 130 to 133) Page 132 Q Okay. What about Housekeeping? That's a different committee or the same one? A I don't know --1did not see the makeup of --the group that made that It was a report that came over in tabular form, and I wasn't, at the time, trying to learn all about dust. There was just a -- reading through a number o f things I hadn't seen, before I read them. Q In those reports, did you see specific references to asbestos dust? A Some, but not everything --they were looking at everything on housekeeping: Drums that were left with tops open; situations where clutter was m the aisle, situations where they had water running on the floor and it's a slipping hazard. It was a housekeeping comprehensive. Q Okay. Let me ask it like this: For the Safety Committee reports, all right, did you see specific references to asbestos dust? A Not as a routine. Q Okay. A Some, where they referenced the collaboration they had with the insurance folks Q Okay. A And the results from the insurance studies. Page 133 But one thing that would make this a little clearer, perhaps, is the safety name, back in those days, was meaning personnel safety of cuts and avoiding accidents and breaks and falls and all sorts of accidents, injuries from -- and avoiding fires, so fire protection, explosion protection, safety engineering, when you're putting together projects to make sure that the safety is put into the project as a part of the engineering. And industrial hygiene functioned --reported to the Hercules Medical Department instead of the Safety Department Q Okay. A So as a result, hygiene on the plant was often augmented with consultant industrial hygienists or someone from a contract company to come around and test So you had that --you know, the separation of the two functions is one thing that will probably make it clearer. Q And that's kind of what we're talking about in Exhibit 5, is an industrial hygiene function. And that's why there's Hercules people on the plant? MS. WILLIAMS' Objection. THE WITNESS Well, no, that was not a hygienist, that was an engineer. MR COTTEN- Okay. HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM KENDALL WATSON PATTERSON Page 134 1 THE WITNESS. He was on the plant looking 1 2 at the status o f equipment, and they're going to make 2 3 those spot-check tours from time to time to see how 3 4 things look, see how things are going. It doesn't 4 5 really say in that report that he came for that reason. 5 6 He was there, he took a tour, and they saw this --these 6 7 things out o f compliance. 7 8 BY MR. COTTEN 8 9 Q Okay. So Industrial Hygiene is separate 9 10 from the Safety Committee? 10 11 A On a daily basis, yes. 11 12 Q Okay. Did you look --are there any 12 13 industrial hygiene committees? Is there an Industrial 13 14 Hygiene Committee? 14 15 A Not per se. It was used as-needed to get 15 16 studies and that sort of thing. But --and there were 16 17 visits by the industrial hygiene manager from Hercules. 17 18 Q Okay. 18 19 A And he saw progress being made throughout 19 20 and saw that they had attention for safety and personnel 20 21 protection. 21 22 Q Who is the industrial hygiene director for 22 23 Hercules from 1971 and 1978? 23 24 A They were called a manager. Manager o f 24 25 Industrial Hygiene The head of that function would be 25 Page 135 1 Mr Ameil Christofano(phonetic) 1 2 Q Okay. And have you seen any reports of 2 3 his? 3 4 A I have seen references and his depositions. 4 5 I have seen comments and I have talked live to him And 5 6 he saw progress being made from the time of his first 6 7 visit in the '64 time period after the acquisition, 7 8 through the time that he left --Haveg left Hercules. 8 9 Q Is he still alive? 9 10 A He is. 10 11 Q When's the last time you talked to him? 11 12 A Maybe eight months ago. 12 13 Q And you were talking to him about asbestos? 13 14 A And industrial hygiene, yes. 14 15 Q Have you, aside from talking to him and 15 16 looking at his depositions, have you seen any reports 16 17 from the Industrial Hygiene Department at Hercules 17 18 Metals[sic] about asbestos? 18 19 A I don't recall any that I have seen, no. 19 20 Q So if there was progress, as testified to 20 21 by this gentleman --I can't remember what you said his 21 22 name was -- Christofano? 22 23 A Christofano 23 24 Q You haven't seen any documented evidence of 24 25 that? 25 35 (Pages 134 to 137) Page 136 A I have seen evidence from things the plant - letters from the plant that said. "These equipment improvements have been finished." And that says --that's what he was talking about when he mentioned his initiating some requests. Q In regards to asbestos? A In regards to controlling dust, reducing dust, reducing exposure, increasing awareness o f risk, and personnel protective equipment as well. Q These letters from the plant, who wrote them? A One was written by Ed Painter. Q Okay. What date is that letter? A I don't recall. Q Is it after this 1978 -- A Before that. Q Do you know who wrote any o f the other ones? A I'm not absolutely certain. I'm not speculating on that, because I read so many things over the months. Q Okay. When's the last time you read these letters from the plant, talking about industrial hygiene? A It must be eight months or more. I mean, Page 137 it's not current Q And the only one you can think of --the only author you can think of is Mr. Painter? A The only one for certain. I can think of others, but I don't want to speculate, because I don't have them in front of me and I haven't looked at them lately Q Okay. A But there are others. Q Have you seen any reports from the Industrial Hygiene Department of Hercules Metals[sic| about asbestos at the Haveg manufacturing facility? MR. FITZPATRICK' Excuse me, Chad. I think you've misspoken a couple times, saying Hercules "Metals," and I don't think there is a Hercules Metals. MR COTTEN: I've been saying Hercules -- forget the "Metals" part. THE WITNESS: For the most part, the department was Christofano and maybe three industrial hygienists. So they didn't write a monthly report to things --they dealt with issues as they came up for the whole corporation and maybe its 50 locations. I have not sought to find all of their collective reports, because at the time, you know, Haveg wouldn't be that -- that great as a relative percentage. But they HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM KENDALL WATSON PATTERSON Page 138 1 encouraged the plants to bring in other people to run 1 2 tests. Mr. Christofano was far too valuable to have him 2 3 just running the actual survey in putting together 3 4 reports 4 5 BY MR. COTTEN 5 6 Q Okay. 6 7 A That was done --that was outsourced 7 8 frequently 8 9 Q Just a real simple question: Have you seen 9 10 any reports from the Industrial Hygiene Department of 10 11 Hercules regarding asbestos at Haveg? 11 12 A Not - 12 13 MS WILLIAMS- Objection 13 14 THE WITNESS: Not that I recall. 14 15 BY MR. COTTEN 15 16 Q Have you seen any documented discussions 16 17 about the possible hazards to end-users of Haveg 17 18 asbestos-containing products? 18 19 MS. WILLIAMS' Objection, form. 19 20 THE WITNESS. Discussions? 20 21 BY MR COTTEN 21 22 Q Uh-huh. 22 23 A Yes, when they --73, 76, 78, there were 23 24 three different time periods they passed along new 24 25 information from the academic world and the safety world 25 Page 139 1 about the hazards o f asbestos. 1 2 Q To end-users? 2 3 A To everybody that could have been exposed. 3 4 It wasn't specific to end-users. It was talking about 4 5 exposure to Haveg. When you're saying "users" you're 5 6 implying the customer, o f course, and I'm not aware o f 6 7 things that were sent to the customer other than the 7 8 documents that went with the product; like installation 8 9 guides, they always had references to the safety warning 9 10 that I spoke o f before and talked about procedures that 10 11 were safe. But we weren't attempting to try to deal 11 12 with hundreds o f different applications o f which we 12 13 didn't know. 13 14 Q Okay. So if we look at an installation 14 15 guide for Chemtite from 1973, we're going to see 15 16 information in there about the hazards o f asbestos? 16 17 A You're going to see --the one that says 17 18 the asbestos is mixed with a binder that keeps asbestos 18 19 from being dispersed as fibers in Haveg and Chemtite, 19 20 when you modify the material by --such as grinding, 20 21 sawing or cutting, it may be possible that fibers are -- 21 22 airborne fibers are created. And if that is the case, 22 23 we refer you to the OSHA guideline dealing with 23 24 Protection o f Workmen. So that's the reference. And 24 25 then they talk about, you also don't want to jump on the 25 36 (Pages 138 to 141) Page 140 pipe, crush it, or break it, or throw it. Q And so this would be in the installation guide? A In the installation guide. Q If we looked at one dated '73 it would be in there? A I think so, absolutely. Q And '74, it would be in there? A They changed it several times And it was in every edition that I have seen. Q When was the first put in, in the installation guide? A I think the Chemtite product was brought to the plant in 71 but not commercialized immediately because they had to install it, et cetera. But shortly thereafter, maybe early 73, somewhere in 73, the installation guide was posted and it was sent with each order. Q Haveg was selling Chemtite in 7 1 , though, right? A No. Q Okay. A It was actually after February 25th of 72 before the sales began. Q Okay. Did the same type of warning go into Page 141 the Haveg installation guide? A There were warnings I'm not - I was preparing this discussion with more Chemtite than Haveg, so I didn't catch it. Q Okay. I want to show you this. This is an invoice from Haveg Industries going to Dow Chemical Company, Freeport, Texas, from Chemtite Division. It's dated September 27th, 1971. Do you see that? (Witness examines document.) THE WITNESS It's the first time I have ever seen this BY MR COTTEN Q Okay. So this is a little earlier than 72? A These are all Dow orders'? Q I think most of them are. There may be a few in there that aren't. And they're not all from 1971. Okay. It's just that at least one of them is. MR FITZPATRICK. There's not a question pending THE WITNESS Okay BY MR COTTEN Q Okay. So you saw that, right? A Yes, I did Q So that looks like they were shipping some HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM KENDALL WATSON PATTERSON Page 142 1 Chemtite to Dow in 1971, Haveg was? 1 2 A That's what it looks like, yes. 2 3 Q Okay. So would it be safer to say that 3 4 you're not really positive when Chemtite started getting 4 5 sold? 5 6 MS. WILLIAMS: Objection, form. 6 7 THE WITNESS. Everything I had seen before 7 8 said nothing was on grade before that period --nothing 8 9 produced was ready for shipment before that period of 9 10 February '72. I don't recognize the numbers in there 10 11 ahead of Chemtite. Are you --in this report, is 11 12 this -- 12 13 MR. FITZPATRICK.: Don't ask questions, 13 14 okay? 14 15 THE WITNESS: Sorry. Excuse me. 15 16 BY MR. COTTEN 16 17 Q There was a Chemtite Division? 17 18 A Okay 18 19 Q Was there? Did Haveg have a Chemtite 19 20 Division? 20 21 A On the plant, it was a part of the Haveg 21 22 thing. I didn't ever see it as a Chemtite Division It 22 23 was a department, but I never have seen that order - I 23 24 mean, those orders, period. 24 25 Q It's in Marshallton, Delaware? 25 Page 143 1 A That's right. That's right. 1 2 MR. COTTEN: Okay. We'll go ahead and mark 2 3 this, then, as 7. 3 4 (Patterson Exhibit Number 7 marked for 4 5 identification.) 5 6 MR. FITZPATRICK: Identify it for the 6 7 record 7 8 MR. COTTEN: It's invoices and sales 8 9 reports of Chemtite to the Dow Chemical Company for 9 10 Freeport, Texas, dated approximately September of 1971 10 11 through - and this is approximate - September 1974. 11 12 There is also a manifest or a ledger at the end noting 12 13 the same. 13 14 BY MR. COTTEN 14 15 Q So the Chemtite piping, you know, before 15 16 1973, if we looked at a Chemtite users guide it wouldn't 16 17 have the asbestos warning in there, right? 17 18 A Excuse me? 18 19 Q It wouldn't have this asbestos information 19 20 in there that you were talking about earlier? Referring 20 21 to OSHA and all that stuff. 21 22 A I think it had it in '72, but I'm -- 22 23 Q Okay. I have got one here, and I think 23 24 it's from 1971, but I don't see the -- I don't see that 24 25 warning in there. So I'm just --you know, I was going 25 37 (Pages 142 to 145) Page 144 to have you look through it and tell me where it is, but if if s not going to be in there before '73,1 don't want to have to do that. MS. WILLIAMS: Objection to the form. BY MR COTTEN Q Well, okay. I mean, I'll pass you this. Here's a Chemtite -- it says, "Haveg Chemtite Piping Systems." Is that a user guide? Is that what you're talking about? A This is one -- brochures, but it's a user's guide but it's an installation guide Q Okay. Would the warning about asbestos also be in the brochure or just in the installation guide? A Wait a minute. Let me see something. This is - - 1think this is a Johns-Manville document that became a Hercules document or a Haveg document in the middle o f the year, July of 1971, when they were transacted. Q Okay. A The picture shows J.M. pipe Q Okay. But the front of it says "Haveg?" A Yes, it does. Q And just let me ask, then, did the brochures ever have these --this asbestos information Page 145 in them, or just the installation guide? A I think more than one brochure. All types of brochures in - I know more than one did Q Okay. A There were different varieties o f labels. Sometimes they were called Improvement to Piping; other times it was called Installation Guide, and different things This was called - can't be read - Piping Systems, Chemtite Pipmg Systems Q Does that have any information about asbestos in it? A I was looking for the safety warning. It says, "Asbestos reinforced, epoxy." Yeah. And it's got asbestos in it, of course, but I don't see the safety warning in that particular one, no. Q Okay. A But that is the same -- m fact, mine is '71, in the picture. MR. FITZPATRICK: Excuse me. Can we mark this? (Patterson Exhibit Number 8 marked for identification) BY MR COTTEN Q So this is the brochure; it's not an installation guide? HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM KENDALL WATSON PATTERSON 38 (Pages 146 to 149) Page 146 Page 148 1 A That's correct. 2 Q But there's no -- there's none of the 1 COMMONWEALTH OF VIRGINIA 2 CITY OF RICHMOND, to wit, 3 asbestos safety information in here? 3 I, Jean Speights, RMR, RPR, CCR, a 4 A That's correct It's the '71 document 4 Notary Public in and for the Commonwealth of Virginia, do 5 Q And just - you might have said this and I 5 hereby certify that on the 16th day of November, 2011, the 6 missed it. But was the asbestos safety information that 6 foregoing witness, having been by me first duly sworn to 7 was being put in the installation guides also put in the 7 tell the whole truth, gave his/her testimony, which was 8 brochures? 8 reported by me in stenotype, and that the foregoing pages 9 A I believe I have seen it in all those 9 constitute a true and correct transcription, to the best of 10 things, but 1do --I can't recall exactly which ones. 10 my ability, o f my said shorthand report. 11 I further certify that I am not a 11 There are different varieties of brochures. 12 relative or employee or attorney or counsel o f any of the 12 MR FITZPATRICK: Do you want to go off the 13 parties hereto, nor am I a relative or employee of such 13 record for a second7 14 attorney or counsel, nor am I financially interested in the 14 MR. GOTTEN' That's all the questions I 15 action. 15 have, for right now I mean, unless you ask something. 16 16 MS. WILLIAMS: Are you passing the witness, 17 Given under my hand this 17 Chad? 18 day o f____________ ,2011. 18 MR. COTTEN: Yes. 19 19 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. Let' take a 20 five-minute break to see if we have anything. 21 (A brief recess was taken.) 22 MS. WILLIAMS: Well, first o f all, is there 23 anybody on the phone that has questions for 24 Mr Patterson? 25 (No response.) 20 21 22 23 Jean B. Speights, RMR, RPR, CCR Registered Merit Reporter 24 Registered Professional Reporter Virginia CCR# 03131541 25 Commission Expiration' April 30,2015 ID# 176313 Page 147 Page 149 1 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. Well, okay. We'll 1 COMMONWEALTH OF VIRGINIA 2 reserve our questions until time o f trial. 2 CITY OF to VS It, 3 MR. RAMIREZ: I don't have any questions 3 4 either. 4 a Notary Public for 6 6 5 5 , certify that the Deposition o f KENDALL WATSON PATTERSON, having been previously submittec 7 AND FURTHER THE DEPONENT SAITH NOT 7 to him/her for examination and reading, stated to the 8 8 undersigned Notary Public that he/she had read and examined 9 9 his/her Deposition and then signed his/her Deposition in 10 KENDALL WATSON PATTERSON 10 the presence o f the Notary Public, and again swore that the 11 11 statements contained therein were true and correct and that 12 12 the said Deposition was duly subscribed to before me on the 13 13 _______________ day o f________________, 2 0 1 1 14 14 15 15 16 16 17 17 Notary Public 18 18 19 19 20 20 21 21 22 22 23 2 3 My Commission Expires 20_ 24 24 25 HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM KENDALL WATSON PATTERSON Page 150 1 ERRATA SHEET 2 3 CHANGES MADE IN THE DEPOSITION OF 4 KENDALL WATSON PATTERSON 5 AT THE TIME OF SIGNING 6 7 CASE OF Martha Gensler v Asbestos Companies, et al 8 DATE 11/ 16/11 9 Page Line Correction 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 39 (Page 150) HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM