Document XOYDyM621e5xDk5qDJdeGJEDg

FILE NAME: Keene (KNE) DATE: 1983 Aug 29 DOC#: KNE005 DOCUMENT DESCRIPTION: Legal - Deposition of Dwight Lord Satterthwaite with BC notes 1 1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF VIRGINIA 2 NORFOLK AND NEWPORT NEWS DIVISIONS 3 In Re: All A s b e s t o s Cases : C.P. 77-1 4 5 Oral Deposition of DWIGHT LORD 6 S A T T E R T H W A I T E , taken p u r s u a n t to notice, at 427 Jl ' ' '' " > 7 Norma Road, Ambler, Pennsylvania, on Monday, August 8 29, 1983, b e g i n n i n g at a p p r o x i m a t e l y 5:15 p.m., 9 b e f o r e B r i g i t t e A. S t r a i n , R e g i s t e r e d P r o f e s s i o n a l 1 0 Reporter-Notary Public, there being present. 1 1 12 APPEARANCES: 13 GLASSER AND GLASSER BY : R O N A L D F. S C H M I D T , E S Q U I R E 14 504 Plaza One Norfolk, Virginia 1 5 Phone: (804) 625-6787 Representing the Plaintiffs 16 BALLARD, SPAHR, ANDREWS AND INGERSOLL 1 7 BY: A N D R E A H O L T Z M A N DRUCKER, E S Q U I R E 30 S outh 17th Street, 20th Floor 18 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103 Phone: (215) 564-1800 '' 19 Representing the Raymark Industries 20 UNITED STATES DEPART M E N T OF JUSTICE CIVIL DIVISION, TORTS BRANCH 21 BY: L I N D A A. H A L P E R N , E S Q U I R E 521 12th Street, N.W., Room 504 22 Washington, D.C. 20530 Phone: (202) 724-7460 2 3 Repr e s ent ing 24 2 5 TO MARKET STREET P -M l A PELPH IA PA 19106 Hmpci-coHEn ^AiinT ncnAnniklA C CD\/IAC PHONE (215) 928 9300 2 1 APPEARANCES (cont.): La BRUM AND DOAK 2 BY: J O H N F. L E D W I T H , E S Q U I R E 700 IVB Building 3 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103 Phone: (215) 561-4400 4 Representing Keene Corporation 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 1 5 16 1 7 18 19 20 2 1 22 i 2 3 24 2 5 00 MARKET STREET A n n OMIA PA 1Q1DA HMPEJ-COHEn imT nrnnnrikio CCDUIAC PHONE (215) 928 9300 3 1 INDEX 2 3 WITNESS DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS 4 DWIGHT LORD SATTERTHWAITE 5 BY MR . SCHMIDT 4 -- 45 -- 6 BY MR . LEDWITH -- 25 -- 58 7 BY MS . HALPERN -- 35 -- -- 8 9 1 0 1 1 1 2 13 14 1 5 16 17 18 19 20 2 1 2 2 23 24 2 5 <00 MARKET STREET P H Ii ADFI RHIA PA HniPES-coHcn phone (215) 928 9300 DWIGHT LORD SATTERTHWAITE 4 1 THE COURT REPORTER: Any 2 stipulations? 3 MR. L E D W I T H : It's my u n d e r s t a n d i n g 4 that all objections are reserved 5 unt i l the t ime of trial, e x c e p t as to the 6 form of the question. 7 MR. S C H M I D T : T h a t is c o r r e c t . 8 9 (It is h e r e b y s t i p u l a t e d and a g r e e d 10 by and among counsel for the respective 11 parties that reading and signing are waived 12 and that all o b j e c t i o n s , except as to the 13 form of questions, be reserved until the time 14 of trial and that any objection by one 15 defense counsel will inure to the benefit of 16 all other defense counsel present.) 17 18 DWIGHT LORD SATTERTHWAITE, after 19 having been first duly sworn, was examined 20 and t e s t i f i e d as follows: 21 22 DIRECT EXAMINATION 23 24 BY MR. SCHMIDT: 25 q. Good morning. For the record, sir, could you 400 MARKET STREET PH ILAD E l PHtA PA 19106 HMPEJ-COHEn a'aiidt nconDTINf; RFRVICF PHONE (215) 928 9300 DWIGHT LORD SATTERTHWAITE 5 1 state your full name and present home address? 2 A. 3 Right. Dwight, first name, D - W -I-G-H-T. 4 Middle name Lord, L-O-R-D. Last name S a t t e r t h w a i t e , 5 S-a -T-T-E-R-T-H-W-A-I-T-E, Satterthwaite. 6 Q. 7 A. 8 q. W h a t is y o u r p r e s e n t h o m e a d d r e s s , sir? 427 Norma Road, Ambler, Pennsylvania. And you h a v e be e n l i v i n g in A m b l e r for quite 9 some time? 10 A. How long? 11 Q. Couple of years, right? 12 A. 13 Q. Two y e a r s . Sir, w h e n did- you s t a r t w o r k i n g for Ehret 14 Magnesia Manufacturing Company? 15 A. 1936. 16 q. And when did you stop working for the company? 17 A. 1975. 18 q. Do you recall what the name was on your 19 payroll check when you left the company: what the 20 name of the c o m p a n y was at that time? 21 MRS. SATTERTHWAITE: State the 22 c o m p a n i e s you worked for, t h a t ' s all. You 2 3 Started with Ehret and then it b ecame? 24 I t h i n k I'll leave. It w i l l be best. 2 5 Don't w o r r y a bout a n y t h i n g . If it co n f u s e s 400 MARKET STREET P H ILAD E LPH IA PA 19106 KOIPCI-COHCn COURT REPORTING SERVICE phone (2151 928 9300 DWIGHT LORD SATTERTHWAITE 6 1 you at all just say, I don't know or I can't 2 remember. That's all. 3 (Whereupon Mrs. Satterthwaite left r i i 4 t h e r o o m .) i ! 5 BY MR. SCHMIDT: 1 t 6 Q. That's good advice. t i j 7 I understand t h a t E h r e t changed its i i 8 n a m e at som e point to Ba l d w i n -- Ehret --Hi 11? 9 A. Yes. 10 q. Then the name changed toKeene Corporation. 11 MR. L E D W I T H : I w o u l d o b j e c t to that. 12 That's a clearly leading question. 13 MR. SCHMIDT: Okay. 14 BY MR. SCHMIDT: 15 Q. What name changes were there after Ehret, if 16 you remember now? 17 A. B a l d w i n - E h r e t - H i 11. 18 q, 19 Was there any name change after that? (Whereupon the witness answered his 20 p h o n e .) 21 BY MR. SCHMIDT: 22 q. i had asked you about the name changes from 23 E h r e t and y o u m e n t i o n e d B a 1d w i n - E h r e t - H i 11 . Was 24 there a name change after that? 25 A. It w a s r e a l l y part o f K e e n e C o r p oration. I 400 m a r k e t STREET P H ILA D E LP H IA PA 19106 KniPES-coHcn COURT REPORTING SERVICE PHONE (215) 928 9300 DWIGHT LORD SATTERTHWAITE 7 1 don't know just when that happened. 2 q. What name was on your payroll check when you 3 left? do you remember? I 4 A. I do not remember. j j i i 5 Q. N o w in 1936, w h e n y o u s t a r t e d wi t h Ehret, ; 6 what was your job at that time? ; i 7 A. I w a s a c l e r k in the s a l e s d e p a r t m e n t . j I 8 Q. How long was that your job, approximately? J 9 A. I w a s t r a n s f e r r e d in 1945 to the c o n t r a c t ; J 10 division wa r e h o u s e off i c e in Philadelphia. i 11 Q. During that first job, bet w e e n 1936 and 1945, j i 12 where was your office located then? , i 13 A. Valley Forge. 14 Q. And did you visit the Ehret plant at Valley 15 Forge when you had that job? 16 A. Not really. Only, I w o u l d say, to consult | 17 sometimes with the shipping depart m e n t on the first 18 floor of the -- In o t h e r w o r d s , the o f f i c e -- the 19 plant building was different, separate from the 20 o f f i c e b u i l d i n g . It w a s in the same, just a lit t l e 21 distance between them. You entered another building 22 to get where they were and I used to go out into 23 that office, not very often. 24 q. W h a t p r o d u c t s w e r e b e i n g m a d e in the V a l l e y 2 5 Forge plant during that first ten years you were 400 MARKET STREET PHIL ADEL PHIA PA 1910*. KniPES-eOHEH CO U R T RFPDRTING SERVICE PHONE (2151 928 9300 DWIGHT LORD SATTERTHWAITE 8 1 with the company? 2 A. P r i m a r i l y the 85 p e r c e n t m a g n e s i a pipe and 3 boiler insulation. 4 q. And when you did have o c c a s i o n to visit the 5 plant itself, did you see any part of the 6 manufacturing process of those products? 7 A. No, not -- never got i n v o l v e d w i t h that. I I } 8 got i n v o l v e d in the f a c t o r y o n l y w i t h the s h i p p i n g j i 9i department. j I 1 0 q. Can y o u d e s c r i b e w h a t you o b s e r v e d in the 11 shipping department during that period? 12 A. Well, m a i n l y the -- in the s h i pping 13 d e p a r t m e n t , near it, t h e y h a d a -- t h e y had c h u t e s 14 coming down from the floor above. And that was the 15 cartoning of the material, the block form and the 16 flat cartons, that type. That would come down these 17 chutes and I observed this quite often. I had some 18 doings with the shipping department, which was m 19 the factory, factory office, shipping, but not very 20 much. I mean maybe a small amount every day, 2 1 p a r t i c u l a r l y if we were s h i p p i n g s o m ething. 22 Q. And what, if anything, w ould h a p p e n when the 23 blocks would come down the chute? 24 A. Well, it w o u l d c r e a t e a dust. In o t h e r 25 words, they would hit the bottom of this metal-- 400 m a r k e t s t r e e t P H IL A D E L P H IA PA 19106 HfllPCJ-COHCn COURT REPORTING SERVICE PHONE (215) 928-9300 DWIGHT LORD SATTERTHWAITE 9 1 like a skid thing, you know, and then there was a 2 carton there and they would just take the stuff and 3 put it in. W h e n t h e y hi t the b o t t o m of that chute, 4 it c r e a t e d a clo u d of dust. Now, I c a n ' t tell y o u 5 what the dust was. Could be a combination of things, 6 b u t it was a w h i t i s h d u s t b e c a u s e the m a t e r i a l was 7 wh it e . 8 Q. This was the 85 p e r c e n t m a g n e s i a block? 9 A. Yeah, or covering. This p a r t i c u l a r one I'm 1 0 talking about, the slabs, yes. The covering was 11 that was cartoned in a similar manner. 12 q. The 85 p e r c e n t m a g n e s i a block, are you a w are 13 of h o w m u c h a s b e s t o s was in that? 14 A. Well, it's call e d 85 p e r c e n t s u p p o s e d l y 15 b e c a u s e its 15 p e r c e n t s o m e t h i n g else. I t h i n k 16 there's a couple of small -- I would say that eight 17 or ten percent was probably asbestos fiber but I 18 y o u know, I w a s n ' t in the t e c h n i c a l end of it. I 19 never paid too much attention to that. I was mainly 20 wit h figures, dollars and figures, h o w to make a 21 buck . 22 q. Now, wit h r e s p e c t to this p r o c e s s by w h i c h 2 3 the blocks would come down the chute and c r e a t e the 24 dust, what special equipment, if any, was given to 25 e m p l o y e e s for that job? 4 '^ m a m k e t stpf ft P h i l a d e l p h i a p a 191 '* KOIPCI-COHCfl COURT RFPORTING SERVICE PHONE (215) 928 9300 DWIGHT LORD SATTERTHWAITE 10 1 A. They were supposed to wear -- they were given 2 a m a s k and sup posed to wear a face mask. 3 Q . What w o u l d h a p p e n if they d i d n ' t wear it? 4 A . Well, basically they would get a warning or 5 two, then it was a u t o m a t i c d i s m i s s a l . But th e y g a v e - 6 they were a little bit lenient at the plant because 7 it was s o m e t h i n g n e w at t h a t t i m e and it was u n g o d l y 8 hot out, 120 to 130 degrees, you know, no air 9 c o n d i t ioning, so they was the guys that the masks 10 helped them a lot, helped them get some oxygen or 11 get -- at least k e e p out the -- yo u know, the fibers j 12 in the a i r . 13 q. Now, sir, when did you first become aware of 14 the disease asbestosis? 15 A. Well, I w o u l d say -- I don't know exactly 16 when, but it was b a s i c a l l y , I think, a f ter I m o v e d 17 down to C u m b e r l a n d Street. 18 Q. Pardon? 19 A. I t h i n k it was a f t e r 1945. 1945 is w h e n I 20 moved from Valley Forge down to the other operation. 2 1 q. Do y o u r e c a l l a p p r o x i m a t e l y w h e n it was that 22 y o u did b e c o m e a w a r e of that disease, a sbe s to sis? 2 3 A . Well, I never thought I was I never 24 t h o u g h t about it as a f f e c t i n g me b e c a u s e the 25 w a r e h o u s e was a little d i f f e r e n t than the plant. ori m a r k e t s t r e e t P h i l a d e l p h i a p a 191C* Kmpcs-coHcn COURT REPORTING SERVICE phone (215) 928 9300 DWIGHT LORD SATTERTHWAITE 11 1 w a s n ' t a n y w h e r e n e a r as big. It was right on the 2 street and the doors were open and we didn't really 3 h a v e to h a n d l e it that much. We had our t ruck s that 4 d e l i v e r e d to our jobs and it d i d n ' t r e a l l y get 5 handled too much. 6 Q. Insofar as the plant, w h e n did you b e c o m e 7 aware of asbestosis? 8 A. Because I had left the plant -- I visited the 9 plant occasionally, the years that I was down 1 0 running the contract division, but I didn't pay much 11 attention to the plant then, only to have 12 conferences with the owners of the company and 13 e x e c u t i v e s of the c o m p a n y . And that was it, r i g h t 14 b a c k to C u m b e r l a n d Str e e t in my little o f f i c e and 15 operated the contract division. 16 Q. I n s o f a r as r e l a t i o n to the plant, w a s it 17 b e f o r e you m o v e d to C u m b e r l a n d Street in 1945 that 18 you became aware of asbestosis or after you moved? I 19 MR. LEDWITH: I object. He alr e a d y 20 testified to that. It's a leading question. 21 THE WITNESS: 1945, that was when 2 2 that -- is w h e n I t o o k o v e r the c o n t r a c t 2 3 division. 24 BY MR. SCHMIDT: 2 5 Q. The masks that you mentioned, what was the 400 m a r k e t STREET PH tl ADFl PHIA PA 1910* KniPEj-coHcn rniinT RFPnRTiNr. ccpuirc PHONE (215) 928 9300 DWIGHT LORD SATTERTHWAITE 1 2 1 purpose of those masks? 2 A. In the f a c t o r y ? 3 Q . Yes. 4 A . To k e e p the dust from -- In o t h e r word s , t h e y 5 wore the mask where they were around this material 6 at the p o i n t w h e r e it was d u s t y , w h e n t h e y w e r e 7 c r a c k i n g the c o n t a i n e r s or h a n d l i n g it. The 8 s l i g h t e s t h a n d l i n g of it -- n o w y o u c o u l d say it wa s 9 a s b e s t o s and y o u can say it w a s n ' t , b u t it was 10 b a s i c a l l y magnesia. But you had to have a small 11 a m o u n t of a s b e s t o s with it. Lord knows, we d i d n t 12 w a n t to use a s b e s t o s . We had to get it t h r o u g h 13 C a n a d a in cars and w h a t n o t , b u t it was the on l y way, 14 at that time anyway, that y o u c o uld use it to m o l d 15 the magnesia into shapes. 16 Q. Why didn't you want to use asbestos? 17 A. We d i d n ' t w a n t to u s e -- It w a s the o n l y 18 thing we kne w about. The fiberglass later came 19 along. In the e a r l y days t h e r e was no f i b e r g l a s s 2 0 insulation as such. And I think all of our 21 competitors who made magnesia used - I'm sure that 2 2 K e asbey-M a t t i s o n did and I kn o w J o h n s- M a n v i 11e did. 23 And I know Philip Carey did. 24 q. You indicated that you didn't want to use 25 asbestos. Why was that? 40'! MARKET STREET PMii A HE I PHIA PA 19106 K n i P S ` O H n f'OIIRT RPPnRTIhin SFRV/ICF PHONE (215) 928 9300 DWIGHT LORD SATTERTHWAITE 1 3 1 A. Well, there was a general feeling, I think, 2 t h a t a s b e s t o s -- not m a n y p e o p l e k n e w a b o u t it } 3 except that it's fire proof. Most people could j j 4 think only of theater curtains when they heard the j 5 word asbestos or something. I think it's fire 6 r e s i s t a n t and f i r e p r o o f . But for t h a t r e a s o n is w h y 7 it had that a d v a n t a g e in w h a t m i g h t h a v e b e e n 8 competitive material. j 9 Q. What was this general feeling that you 10 ment ioned? 11 A. You know, that - 12 q. As far as asbestos, yes, sir. 13 A. I t h i n k the f e e l i n g in g e n e r a l was that the 14 more you were around asbestos in a pure form of any 15 kind, the m o r e likely it w o u l d be to c a use you 16 trouble, probably. 17 q. Are you talking about lung trouble? 18 A. i would say that would be themain thing. 19 Q. And when did you first under s t a n d that to be 20 the case? 2 1 A. Well, shortly after I started work there. 22 Q. You started work there in - 23 A. 1936. 24 q. Now, the products that were made there, the 25 m a g n e s i a pipe c o v e r i n g and block, -- y o u i n d i c a t e d 400 m a r k e t STREET PHIL AOELPM iA PA 19106 KfllPES-COHEn COURT RFPORTING SERVICE PHONE (215) 928 9300 DWIGHT LORD SATTERTHWAITE i 14 1 that you were in sales b e t w e e n 1936 and 1945. Who 2 were your customers during that period? 3 A. Well, they were mostly contractors, 4 insulation contractors. Wherever in the 5 territory that we covered which was mostly the 6 E a s t e r n Seaboard. We d i d n ' t ship -- we d i d n ' t do 7 business on the coast, too expensive freightwise, so I 8 most of our material came out of the Valley Forge j 9 plant. All of the material that came into our j 1 0 w a r e h o u s e was i n c o r p o r a t e d in the five c o u n t y a r e a j 11 plus New Jersey plus local. And we had certain 12 c u s t o m e r s w h i c h is one of the rea s o n s m a y b e that 13 we're here today. I don't know, but we had a very 14 close relationship with the American Viscose 15 C o r p o r a t i o n . And it was t h r o u g h my c o n n e c t i o n t h e r e 16 with one of the top men that we were given the two 17 huge renov a t i o n jobs in V i r g i n i a for America n 18 V i s c o s e . One in Nitro, W e s t V i r g i n i a . One in F r o n t 19 Royal, Virginia. 20 Those jobs were done -- I ran them. 21 I had the superintendent running those jobs out of 22 Philadelphia. This rest were all hired out of the 23 union, except for m aybe a couple foremen and the job 24 superintendent. 25 Q. During that first ten year period you were 40^ m a r k e t STREET P*-tli A D F l P H IA PA 19106 KfMPES-COHSn rnilDT DCDDDTIMn CFOV/IPF PHONE (2151-828 9300 DWIGHT LORD SATTERTHWAITE 1 5 1 with the company 1936 to 1945, to what extent, if 2 at all, were you i n v o l v e d in sales to the Navy or to 3 the government? 4 A. Yes. Navy, some smaller d i v isions of the 5 g o v e r n m e n t . Q u i t e a bit in the Nav y t h r o u g h the 6 Navy Yard. We bid on their inquiries, particularly 7 the Philadelphia Navy Yard. 8 q. in t e r m s of the t o t a l v o l u m e of t h e i r s a les 9 during that period, what percent would you estimate 10 were to the Navy? 11 A. Well, I w o u l d -- it's a guess. I would guess 12 m a y b e 20 percent, 25 percent. 13 Q. Now, a f ter 19 -- in 1945 you i n d i c a t e d that 14 y o u r job at E hret changed. What was the new job you 15 s t a r t e d at that poi n t ? 16 A. They -- the -- Ehret operated a branch office 17 in P h i l a d e l p h i a e n g a g e d p r i m a r i l y in h a n d l i n g the 18 contract work, h i r i n g of insulators as needed, 19 ordering the material. 20 What was your question again? 21 Q. B a s i c a l l y I wanted to know what your job - 22 w h a t your n e w job w a s that yo u a s s u m e d in 1945, w h a t 23 that involved. 24 A. This i n v o l v e d -- In other words, the company 25 had an o f fice in P h i l a d e l p h i a w h i c h sold m a t e r i a l s 40'J M A M K t T s t n e f t P m i i a L it t PH IA PA 191 Of) HfllPEJ-COHCn rnilRT RFPOPTINfl SFRVICE phone lb) 928 9300 DWIGHT LORD SATTERTHWAITE 16 1 out of the w a r e h o u s e , but m a i n l y it was on a 2 supplying basis, application, bid on the insulation 3 mate rial. 4 In 1945, upon the r e t i r e m e n t of the 5 former manager who was for many years with E h r e t , 6 Mr. Supplee -- Mr. Supplee was there almost from the 7 b e g i n n i n g . He retired. And he was -- sent me d o w n 8 to run that o p e r a t i o n in V a l l e y Forge. 9 Q. If y o u w o u l d like to r e s t a few m i n u t e s , t h a t 10 w i l l be fine. One t h i n g y o u h a v e to do is sor t of 11 keep your voice up so this lady can pick up what 12 you're saying. 13 A. Right. 14 q. so I take it in 1945 y o u r o f f i c e m o v e d to 15 Philadelphia? 16 A. Yeah. I moved, really. 17 q. You moved? 18 A. Yeah, I mean they had - 19 q. The office was already there? 20 A. Yes, and a m a n w a s t e m p o r a r i l y r u n n i n g it for 21 a small amount of time until they got ready to send 22 me down t h e r e . 23 A n d y o u r j o b t i t l e at t h a t p o i n t w a s co: 24 m a n a g e r or -- 2 5 A. B r a n c h m a n a g e r is w h a t -- w h e n I t o o k t h a t on m arket street P H IL ADE LP H IA PA 19106 KfllPEf-COHEfl COURT REPORTING SERVICE PHONE (215) 928 9300 DWIGHT LORD SATTERTHWAITE 1 7 1 job . 2 Q. And did that remain your job until you left 3 in 1976 or 1975? 4 MR. L E D W I T H : I ob j e c t to the question. 5 MR. SCHMIDT: On what b a s i s ? 6 MR. LEDWITH: It's leading. 7 BY MR. SCHMIDT: 8 Q. We r e you b r a n c h m a n a g e r up until you left in 9 1975 or did you take some other job? 10 MR. LEDWITH: Same objection. 11 THE WITNESS: Same objection? 12 MR. LEDWITH: You can answer the 13 que st i o n . 14 T H E W I T N E S S : I r e t i r e d in 1975. 15 BY MR. SCHMIDT: 16 Q. Now, w h a t w e r e the m a t e r i a l s t h a t y o u w e r e in 17 i n v olved in s e lling as the b r a n c h m a n a g e r of Ehret 18 in P h i l a d e l p h i a ? 19 A. Well, 85 p e r c e n t m a g n e s i a w h i c h we stored, 20 not in huge q u a n t i t i e s , in our w a r e h o u s e , but we h a d 21 to c a r r y a r e s p e c t a b l e a m o u n t of it b e c a u s e p e o p l e 22 from Philadelphia would want -- they would want to 2 3 c o m e get it and p i c k it up the sa m e day, y o u kno w, 24 in small orders, but we -- and we got -- w h e n e v e r we 25 g o t to a c e r t a i n p o int, the f a c t o r y w o u l d sen d us 40^ MARKET staeft Philadelphia Pa 191'X K ftlP E S -C O H C n COURT RPPORTIMO SFRVIOF PHONE {215) 928 9JOO DWIGHT LORD SATTERTHWAITE 18 1 another trailer load of m aterial which we always - 2 we told them what size and what thicknesses we need. 3 T h e y would send it down, and w e ' d start ove r again. 4 Q. Were there other materials that were sold out 5 of that w a r e h o u s e in a d d i t i o n ? 6 A. Yes, there were. I mean some low pressure 7 i n s u l a t i o n we carr i e d , c o m m o n l y k n own as Air c e l l , 8 wool felt had been replaced. These were low quality 9 efficient and they were all doomed when fiberglass 10 came out. That replaced nea r l y all that type of 11 material over the years. 12 Q. 13 A. That replaced the Aircell? And the wool felt and anti sweat and all. 14 And a lot o f the c o r k - - w e l l , a lot of c o r k is s t i l l 15 used. 16 Q. Were there any other products, other than the 17 85 pe r c e n t m a g n e s i a pipe c o v e r i n g and b l o c k and the 18 Aircell and the wool felt, that were sold out of the 19 Philadelphia office? 20 A. We carried insulation -- two or three 21 insulating cements, two or three grades of 22 insulating cement. 2 3 Actually, we had never had a very 24 large amount in the w a r e h o u s e b e c a u s e it was -- m o s t 25 of the time it w a s o v e r n i g h t to get it f r o m the 400 MARKET STREET PH ILAD E l PHIA PA 19106 H M P E S -C O H E n COURT REPORTING RFRVICE PHONE (215) 928 9300 DWIGHT LORD SATTERTHWAITE I 19 1 plant, I m e a n a c o u p l e of days. If we had a s u d d e n 2 run on s o m e t h i n g we c o u l d r e p l e n i s h it. 3 Particularly they would pay attention to their own 4 branch. You know, I'm sure some of their customers 5 got a little mad at them if they fell b e h i n d on 6 shipping dates beca u s e who are you going to feed, 7 your son or your son-in-law, you know? 8 q. You me n t i o n e d insulating cements. Do you 9 recall any of the names of the insulating cements 1 0 that were sold out of the Philadelphia branch? 11 A. Yes. Powerhouse was one. Super Powerhouse 12 was one later on manufactured by Baldwin-E h r e t - H i l 1 13 or B a l d w i n - H i 11. 14 q. Do you recall any other cements other than 15 the Powerhouse and Super Powerhouse? 16 A. And the asbestos cement which we imported 17 from Canada. There was no c o m m e r c i a l p r o d u c t i o n so 18 that was stamped on every -- because there there 19 are a few a s b e s t o s d e p o s i t s in the United States, 20 but very scattered, hardly worth doing anything with. 21 So e v e r y b o d y has to use the C a n a d i a n m a t e r i a l . 22 q. Do you recall any other kinds of cements that 23 were sold out of the Philadelphia branch? 24 A. Well, as I said P o w e r h o u s e w o u l d be one, 25 a s b e s t o s c e m e n t was sold in 50 and 100 pound bags. 400 MARKET S T R E f T PHIL AOE L PH IA PA 19 1Of, KM PS-COHn /'/-MOT D C D D D T I U n C P D U I P P PHONE (215) 928 9300 DWIGHT LORD SATTERTHWAITE 20 1 Not as m u c h of that, that was in the p r o c e s s of 2 being replaced by the Powerhouse type cement, which 3 was a much more efficient insulation than asbestos, 4 and still was fireproof. 5 Q. Are you familiar with Number One Plus? 6 A. Y e a h , t h a t 's -- 7 Q. What was that? 8 A . T h a t 's a Super Powerhouse, BEH Plus, Number 9 One Plus, y e a h . 1O Q. So I t a k e t h a t 's a c e m e n t ? 11 A. Yeah . 12 Q. Are you familiar with Thermasil? 13 A. Ye s . 14 Q . 15 A. W h a t is that? T h a t 's a c a l c i u m silicate pipe - - or b lock 16 insulation, or both. That was a trade name. 17 Q. And were both of those materials also sold 18 out of the Philadelphia branch? 19 A. Yes, later. 20 Q. Now, I understandthat you were branch 2 1 manager between 1945 and 1975? 22 A. Yes, I didn't think that was true when I 2 3 h e a r d it. 30 y e a r s in the same plant, bu t t h a t ' s - 24 that was it. I mean, you know, I v i s i t e d the V a l l e y 25 Forge plant quite often on business. We discussed 400 M AR KET ST PE T P H I. ADELPHIA PA iQ lO f KntPff-coHcn rniiOT DCDODTIMO QPDUIPC PHONE (215) 928 9300 DWIGHT LORD SATTERTHWAITE 21 1 things but I was h e a d q u a r t e r e d that long on 2 C u m b e r l a n d Street. I r e t i r e d at age 65 63. 3 Q. At the time that you retired, I t h i n k in 1975 - 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. At that p o i n t in time wer e t h ere any of t h e s e 6 different materials that you mentioned not being 7 sold out of the Philadelphia branch? 8 A. No. I t h i n k we sold the same type of 9 material that we did prior to 1975. 10 Q. These different materials that you have 11 mentioned here. Who made those materials? What 12 c o m p a n y or c o m panies made those m a t e r i a l s ? 13 A. Well, you mean the cements and the type of 14 pipe covering? 1 5 Q. Yes. 16 A. We made magnesia and we made what was known 17 as high t e m p e r a t u r e insulation, w hich our trade name 18 was Enduro. This was for 1,800 degree limits. 19 Magnesia was 600 degree limits. They were replaced 20 mainly by calcium silicate which was a 1,200 degree. 2 1 T h a t ' s h i g h enough. You d o n ' t h a v e to s p e c i a l i z e it. 22 Q When you say w e , do you mean Eh ret? 2 3 A . Yes, Eh ret. 24 Q . Now , what about th e cements? Do you know 25 whe r e they were made or who made them? 400 MARKET STREET P h il A D E LP H lA PA 19108 K M P E S - C O H am COURT REPORTING SERVICE PHONE (215) 928 9300 DWIGHT LORD SATTERTHWAITE 22 1 A. Well, b asic asbestos cement, which we used 2 m o s t of b y far, that was a C a n a d i a n pro d u c t . It was 3 all marked, Canadian product. Every bag was marked, 4 no c o mmercial p r o d u c t i o n in the U n i t e d States. 5 That was to keep people from h o l l e r i n g about using 6 imported material from other countries. , 7 Q. What about the Powerhouse and Super 8 Powerhouse that you mentioned that replaced that? 9 A. They were mineral wool basis and were 10 actually I think the trade name of Baldwin Hill. 11 Q. What about the Number One Plus? 12 A. Number One Plus might have been somebody 13 e l s e 1 s, I t h i n k . C o u l d b e . 14 Q. If you d o n ' t r e m e mber, t h a t ' s fine. 15 A. Yeah. It's hard to remember that far back 16 but - 1 7 Q. T h e s e m a t e r i a l s , w h e r e w e r e th e y stored in 18 connection with the Philadelphia branch? 19 A. The Philadelphia branch was primarily a 20 warehouse operation, a fairly good size, about half 21 a block long on the 1300 b l o c k of Cumberland Street, 22 right near the North Broad Street station of the 23 Read i n g . 24 Q. Was your office in that w a r e h o u s e ? 25 A. Yes, it was d i v i d e d b y the b i g door, the b i g 400 MARKFT STREET P m i i A n t i Qu i a n a n i A i KillPCf-CO H Cn PHONE (215) 928 9300 DWIGHT LORD SATTERTHWAITE 23 1 heavy metal door . 2 Q. T h e s e m a t e r i a l s in the w a r e h o u s e in 3 P h i l a d e l p h i a , to wha t e xtent w e r e the y stored in 4 their original containers? 5 A. M o s t l y -- I mean, of course, we had to split 6 c a r t o n s I m e a n we had a small b u s i n e s s as well as a 7 big business we were furnishing our jobs with 8 material, but a lot of people were picking up from 9 us, you know, a c a r t o n here, c a r t o n there for t h e i r 10 own use or something, for doing a little -- some 11 little plu m b e r ' s -- the e m ployers had a job to do. 12 R a t h e r than c o n t r a c t s o m e b o d y to do it, he w o u l d do 13 w h a t he w a s n ' t suppo s e d to do, put the i n s u l a t i o n on 14 h i m s e l f , w h i c h was -- this we d i d n ' t like but, after 15 all, we c o u l d not r e f u s e to sell it. 16 q. i t a k e it t hat b y and l a r g e t h e y w ere in 17 their original containers? 18 A. 19 q. Yes. , During the time you were branch manager, how 20 often would you visit those areas of the warehouse 21 where these products were stored? 22 A. Well, I w o u l d say, as an average, p r o b a b l y at 23 l e a s t o n c e a d a y . S o m e t i m e s -- I m e a n it was r i g h t 24 there. You just o p e n e d the door. S o m e t i m e s it was 25 e a s i e r to do that than g i v e an i n s t r u c t i o n to 400 m a r k e t s t r e e t KniPEJ-CO H Efl i ir ir n r n n D T I lli! C C O U irc PHONE (215) 928 9300 DWIGHT LORD SATTERTHWAITE 24 1 somebody, rather than to pick up the intercom phone. 2 I mean, it was just r i g h t t h e r e . 3 Q. And was this true up until the time you 4 retired? 5 A. As far as I can recall, yes. 6 q. j under s t a n d these were Ehret an Baldwin Hill 7 mater ia1s? 8 MR. LEDWITH: Objection. Leading 9 que st i o n . 10 BY MR. SCHMIDT: 11 q. Who made these materials? 12 MR. LEDWITH: Well, I would ask, what 13 m a t e r i a l s are you r e f e r r i n g to. 14 BY MR. SCHMIDT: 15 q. The pipe c o v e r i n g and b l o c k and c e m e n t in the 16 warehouse that we have been talking about. 17 A. Well, for instance, all of the -- any 18 m a g n e s i a or calc i u m silicate insulation that we 19 w o u l d have in the w a r e h o u s e w o u l d have b e e n 20 m a n u f a c t u r e d in V a l l e y Forge. Other m a t e r i a l s w h i c h 21 we had to stock, such as A i r c e l l , wool felt, pipe 22 covering were purchased from Norristown Magnesia and 2 3 Asbestos Company. 24 Q. What about the cement? 25 A. Cements, Number One BEH, Super Powerhouse 400 MARKET STREET PHILADEL PHIA PA 19106 KMPES-COHEft COURT REPORTING SERVICE PHONE (2151 928 9300 DWIGHT LORD SATTERTHWAITE 25 1 Powerhouse, B E H . 1 2 Q. BEH meaning B a 1dwin-Ehret-Hi 11? ! 3 A. B a l d w i n - E h r e t - H i l 1. 4 MR. SCHMIDT: Was there an answer to ; 5 that on the record? ; i 6 THE COURT REPORTER: Yes. | 7 B a l d w i n - E h r e t - H i l 1. ' * ; 8 BY MR. SCHMIDT: : 9 Q. During these visits to the part of the 10 warehouse right outside the door where these ; 11 products were stored, during the time that you were ; 12 branch manager, did you ever see anything on the ;i 13 containers of these materials that would warn people : j 14 who were using these materials that asbestos dust j 15 could be harmful? i; 16 A. I never saw them myself that I can recall, j 17 warning s . | j 18 Q. Thank you. I don't have any further ; 19 questions. I think the other people heremay have : 20 some questions for you. 21 A. O k a y , sir. 22 23 CROSS EXAMINATION 24 25 BY MR. LEDWITH: 400 m a r k e t STREET Ph i l a d e l p h i a p a 1910*1 HM P!-COHn rniIRT RFPDRTINft PRUIPF PHONE (215) 928 9300 DWIGHT LORD SATTERTHWAIT E 26 1 Q. Do you want to take a b r e a k ? 2 A. I s h o u l d n 't b e c a u s e a l l I'll do is s m o k e a 3 cigarette. I'm trying to cut that out. 4 MR. SCHMIDT: It's up to you, 5 whatever you would like. 6 THE WITNESS: Let's go ahead. 7 BY MR. LEDWITH: 8 Q. Mr. S a t t e r t h w a i t e , w h e n did the b r a n c h at 9 Cumberland Street close down? 10 A. I don't know that I know that. I have always 11 said that I left t here -- I r e t i r e d in 1975. And as 12 far as I k n o w I was -- t h a t ' s w h e n the b r a n c h was 13 closed. 14 Q. But you didn't retire from that branch 15 location, did you? 16 A. I b e l i e v e so. I d i d n ' t go b a c k to the V a l l e y 17 Forge at any point, that I remember. 18 Q. D i d n ' t you w o r k in the m a i n o f f i c e in 19 Princeton for a while? 20 A. That's a part at the end my w i f e remembers, 21 b u t I -- that c l e a r l y is a b l a n k to me. 22 q. W h a t is a b l a n k , w o r k i n g in P r i n c e t o n ? 23 ^ < Yeah. For any l e n g t h of time. Of course, my 24 m e m o r y is e v e n w o r s e n o w t h a n it was t h e n a b o u t 25 these things. You go b a c k too far. It's just -- a 4(X> MAR KET STREET P H IL A D E L P H IA PA 19106 KHIPCI-COHCn COURT REPORTING SERVICE PHONE (215) 928 9300 DWIGHT LORD SATTERTHWAITE 27 1 stone wall hits me. 2 Q. 3 A. What's that, with your memory? Yeah . 4 Q . You are having a problem with your memory; Dr~ isn't that right? 6 A. Yes, somewhat. Particularly if it's quite a 7 wh i1e ago . 8 Q . Has your m e m o r y g o t t e n w o r s e in the past year? | 9 A. Well, I t h i n k it has to a p o i n t that I 10 sometimes forget things quicker than I would a 11 c o u p l e -- even a c o u p l e of y e a r s ago. In o t h e r 12 words, to me t h a t ' s p r o b a b l y just d i s i n t e g r a t i o n in 13 general. I'm in the seventies. I mean, I have had 14 a lung prob l e m anyway all my life, p n e u m o n i a at age 15 five. I have had three attacks of pneumonia before 16 I w a s 15 y e a r s old. T h a t ' s s e r i o u s . E a c h t i m e it 17 r e n d e r e d m y l u n g s less. So for the l a s t 15 or 20 18 y e a r s the r e is no w a y I ca n run from h e r e to that 19 car there. As long as I can w a l k and w a l k slowly, 20 as long as I lie in bed or sleep, no problems. 21 Q. You're under tre a t m e n t by a doctor for - 22 A. F r o m ti m e to time. T h e r e is n o t h i n g that c an 23 be do n e ab out it. It's s i m p l y a ' ` in my 24 lungs that cannot be -- the only thing you have to 25 be c a r e f u l is not to m a k e it w o r s e and one of the 400 m a r k e t s t r e e t P h i l A 0 f l Ph IA PA 191(*> KniPd-coHcn rOURT REPORTING SFRVinF PHONE (215) 928 9300 DWIGHT LORD SATTERTHWAITE 28 1 t h i n g s y o u s h o u l d n e v e r do is smok e , for i n s t a n c e . 2 q. You're also under treatment for a heart 3 problem? 4 A. No. I d o n ' t kn o w w h e r e that came from. As 5 far as I know, I never had any h e a r t t r o u b l e . 6 Q. Mr. S a t t e r t h w a i t e , the b e s t r e c o l l e c t i o n you 7 h a v e n o w is that y o u r e m a i n e d m a n a g e r of the 8 Cumberland Street branch up until the time you left 9 the company? 10 A. Yes. Actually, t h a t 's w h e n I left to retire 11 which was a little bit before the usual age. I just 12 d e c i d e d I h a d e n o u g h of it. 13 q. You were never an officer of the company, 14 were you? 1 5 A. 16 Q. No, not at E hret M a g n e s i a . And, essentially, your job from 1936 to 1945 17 was as an inside salesman; isn't that right? 18 A. Right, c lerk in the sales d e p a r t m e n t . 19 Q. You were a clerk? 20 A. 2 1 Q. Yeah. Who did you work -- 22 A. For the vice p r e s i d e n t in c h a r g e of sales, 2 3 J o h n D. D u B o i s . 24 Q. Y o u w e r e 22 w h e n y o u s t a r t e d ? 25 A. I w a s 23. 1936. I w a s b o r n in 1913. 400 MARKET STREET P h i l a d e l p h i a p a 191O6 HfllPEI-COHEn o n ilR T REPORTING SERVICE phone 12151 928 9300 DWIGHT LORD SATTERTHWAITE 29 1 Q. When you ran the contracting branch would you 2 c h a r a c t e r i z e your job as sales there? 3 A. Basically I -- one thing was peculiar. I had 4 never w o r k e d as a p i p e c o v e r e r , never in the field, 5 and most -- that was a big part of the job. I never 6 had that experience. I never thought you had to 7 h a v e it. We ha d a c a p a b l e m a n d o i n g it for me wh o 8 knew -- who was an ex-asbestos worker himself, who 9 retired, as many did, and bec a m e supe r i n t e n d e n t s of -- 10 because they still had the know-how, maybe not - 11 you know, up to k n o w what to do. 12 Q. Are you saying you had a superintendent who 13 ran jobs for you? 14 A. Well, we had an outside superintendent who 15 paid -- who h a n d l e d only the c o n tract part of the 16 work. Because, see, we sold m a t e r i a l s too. Of 17 course, he'd have nothing to do with that. We had 18 a l m o s t as b i g a m a t e r i a l sales b u s i n e s s as we did 19 contract . 20 Q. So you spent most of your day at the place on 21 Cumberland Street? 22 A. Yes. I -- we had an efficient superintendent, 23 two of them when we were very busy who went out on 24 almost every job every day almost without exception, 25 checking. And I did all the buying, all the billing, 4 .V- M A H K F T S T E F F I pM't ADF I PHI A PA I'UOi, KfllPES-CO HCn rminT oconDTiKir; ccDWirc PHONE (215) 928 9300 DWIGHT LORD SATTERTHWAITE 30 1 of course. I did the billing or told them what to 2 bill, when to bill. Typical b r a n c h m a nager' s job. 3 Had to be careful I didn't get -- step on Valley 4 Forge's toes too much. They might think I was 5 pretty dispensable. He's not indispensable. 6 Q. You wer e never i n v o l v e d in the m a n u f a c t u r i n g 7 side of the business, were you? 8 A. No, o t h e r than the l o c a t i o n of the sales 9 d e p a r t m e n t in the b u i l d i n g n e x t to the f a c t o r y in 10 V a l l e y Forge. And I used to w a l k out in the p l a n t 11 occasionally. Generally only to the shipping 12 d e p a r t m e n t w h i c h was on l y a bout 50 y a r d s -- 50 feet 13 inside the -- from the door to the office part. I 14 used to go out there to check on the shipping 15 sometimes, see if they were getting the stuff out on 16 time. Too m a n y c a r t o n s lying around, so on, b ut 17 most of the time I never had p a r t i c u l a r reason to go 18 into the plant very off. 19 Q. You were n e v e r i n v olved in f o r m u l a t i n g the 20 composition of the material? 21 A . No . 22 Q. 2 3 A. Your a n s w e r is no? (No response.) 24 MR. LEDWITH: Off the record. 25 (Discussion held off the record.) joo m a r k e t s t r ee r Ph i l ADE [ PHIA PA 19' KniPci-coHcn COURT REPORTING SERVICE PHONE (215) 928 9300 DWIGHT LORD SATTERTHWAITE 3 1 1 BY MR. LEDWITH: 2 Q. You're not a chemist by training, are you? 3 A. No . 4 Q . Or a geologist? 5 A . No. I have no d e g r e e s of any kind, e xcept 6 one year at Haverford College. 7 Q. 8 A. 9 10 11 Y o u w e n t o n e y e a r at H a v e r f o r d or t w o y e a r s? One, I think. No, I g u e s s m aybe two , ye a h . MR. S C H M I D T : P a r d o n ? I d idn 't h e a r that question. MR. LEDWITH: I said, did you go one 12 or two y e a r s at H a v e r f o r d . 13 THE WITNESS: I think only one. I'm 14 not sure. I think it's one, not two because 15 it was a p p r o a c h i n g the d e e p d e p r e s s i o n 16 period. 17 BY MR. LEDWI 18 Q. When 19 would you go 20 W o u l d be it 21 A. To th 22 Q. I'm s 23 Valley Forge 24 MR. S C H M T D T : I t h i n k he c a l l e d it 25 shipping 400 MARKET STREET P H IL A D E L P H IA PA 19 10f. KMPEf-COHEn C O U R T RPDODTIKIC CCDWirc PHONE (215) 928 9300 DWIGHT LORD SATTERTHWAITE 32 1 BY MR. LEDWITH: 2 Q . I'm s o r r y . 3 A. Did I v i s i t it, did you say? 4 Q. 5 A. Yes. Well, I -- o n l y if t h ere were c o m p l a i n t s that 6 certain orders were not being shipped on time. And 7 actually there that had happened occasionally. That 8 was really -- the vice president had the authority 9 m o r e than I had as an a s s i s t a n t . I m e a n -- In o t h e r 10 words, I did not go out into the plant very often. 11 And w h e n I did it was o n l y into the first par t of 12 it, to the s h i p p i n g floor. And t h e r e was some d u s t 13 a r o u n d in t h e r e . W h e n t h e y w e r e l o a d i n g t h e s e 14 b l o c k s in c a r t o n s t h ere w o u l d be a little, b u t 15 outside of that I never really got around -- didn't 16 even -- I never even saw a lot of the plant where 17 the earlier -- w h e r e the starting m a n u f a c t u r e r 18 began, the molding, all these processes to come up 19 with the pipe insulation and blocks. They were all 20 m o l d e d in the f i n i s h i n g d e p a r t m e n t . 2 1 q. Was Mr. DuBois still there when you left? 22 A. 23 Q. 24 A. I t h i n k so, yeah. Let me -- I thought I would have never forgotten the 25 answer to that question. 400 MARKET STREET P H ILA D E LP H IA PA 19106 HHlPCS-COHCn P/OIIDT DP DO DTIW O CCDV/IPF PHONE (215) 928 9300 DWIGHT LORD SATTERTHWAITE 33 1 Q. Was he your boss? 2 A. 3 q. He was a t o ugh one. Was he your boss when you left, for the 4 contracting division? 5 A. I d o n ' t t h i n k so. I t h i n k I a s k e d Mr. Ehret, 6 Junior, who was p r e s i d e n t of the company, if he 7 would think about giving me a crack at replacing Mr. 8 Supplee as a contract m a n a g e r of the br a n c h office. 9 I figured -- I asked him this for one reason, that I 10 don't see any possible p r o m o t i o n for me here b ecause 11 they were all taken. There were only four 12 executives? Russell C r a w f o r d in N o r r i s t o w n was the 13 secretary and A1 Ehret, Junior was president. John 14 DuB o i s was vice p r e s i d e n t in charge of sales and 15 H e n r y H o w e l l was vic e p r e s i d e n t in c h a r g e of 16 purcha sing. 17 q. W e r e y o u e s s e n t i a l l y in the same p o s i t i o n in 18 1945 as w h e n you started in '36? 19 A. W e l l , I h a d had -- t h e y w e r e -- let me put it 20 this way. They were fairly well satisfied with my 21 work at V a l l e y Forge and I got periodic increases. 22 I was not unhappy there. But when this opportunity 23 came b e c a u s e of Mr. S u p p l e e ' s ill h ea lt h and w ha t n o t 24 I a s ked for a c r a c k at a lot m o r e r e s p o n s i b i l i t y and 25 consequently assuming they'll pay me a better wage, 4on MARKET STPEFT Dt-4II A H f ! DUIA OA KMPES-COHEn _ n m A n m i o ccmn/'c PHONE (215) 928 9300 DWIGHT LORD SATTERTHWAITE 34 1 wh ich he did. 2 Q. But essentially for the nine years that you 3 were there you were doing inside sales work? 4 A . Yes, inside sales. 5 Q. And from '36 to '45 w h e r e did E h r e t sell m o s t 6 of its products? 7 A . Well, we had -- they had a distributorship 8 all -- r e a s o n a b l y -- not on the P a c i f i c coast but as 9 far as -- we had a C h i c a g o o f f i c e and a s mal l e r 10 warehouse and we had contracts -- we dealt mostly 11 with contractors who had their own facilities, 12 m echanical contractors or insulation contractors, 13 which we manufactured insulation and did ship often 14 to our competitors. 15 Q. Is t h a t w h o y o u d e a l t w i t h m o s t l y , m e c h a n i c a l 16 contractors? 17 A. Yes, and large industrial firms who some of 18 them wanted to deal direct. 19 Q. H o w a b o u t in the p e r i o d f r o m 1936 to '45, did 20 you deal mainly with mechanical 21 A . Yes. Insulation was nearly always a sub of 22 the plumbing, heating and air c o nditioning 2 3 c o n t r a c t o r s , u n l e s s it w a s a v e r y l a r g e job or 24 u n l e s s it w a s a l a r g e i n d u s t r i a l c o m p a n y , such as 25 American Viscose and again because they let their 4CMI M A R K E T s t r e e t Ph i l a d e l p h ia pa 19 106 KMPEI-COHEil COURT RIPORTINO SFRVIOF PHONE (215) 928 9300 DWIGHT LORD SATTERTHWAITE 35 1 insulation wor k d i r e c t l y to us. And they had -- 2 that's when they were on a tremendous expansion. I 3 spent five years in V i r g i n i a and West Virginia, not 4 steadily, but g o ing down t here at least two or three 5 times a month. 6 Q. What years were they, do you remember? Was 7 that in the sixties? 8 A. Let's see now. This w o u l d be in the fifties. 9 The first one in 1954 was N i t r o -- or Front Royal, 10 V i r g i n i a . And the s e c o n d one w a s -- m y m i n d is ba d . 11 Nitro, West Virginia. 12 Q. Did you do any selling on the road during the 13 p e r i o d '36 to '45? 14 A. No . 15 Q. I have no other questions. 16 17 BY MS. HALPERN: 18 Q. Mr. S a t t e r t h w a i t e , I'm L i n d a Halpern. I'm 19 w i t h the D e p a r t m e n t of Justice. I'm going to ask 20 you some questions now too. 21 When you were with the contracting 22 unit in P h i l a d e l p h i a , did y o u e v e r sell any of the 23 f i r e p r o o f i n g s p r a y s that B a 1d w i n - E h r e t - H i 11 ma de, 24 Fire spray or any of those? 25 A. No, to my k n o w l e d g e . 4<Y) MA R KE T STREET PMC AH Tl Pk-ilA LA iairu k KMPS-COHn niinr nrnnnTikio ccmni'c PHONE (215) 928 9300 DWIGHT LORD SATTERTHWAITE 36 I 1 Q. You did sell, you mentioned earlier, to the j 2 P h i l a d e l p h i a N a v a l S h i p y a r d ; is that c o r r e c t ? j i 3 A. We sold i n s u l a t i o n to them, yes. j t ! 4 Q. Now, were any of these sales in the form of j 5 blanket sales agreements; do you remember that term? i I | 6 A. I don't think we ever had that r e l a t ionship | I 7 with them. We had contracts for p u r c h a s e from the j 8 Philadelphia Navy Yard. For instance, they ; i 9 p u r c h a s e d m a t e r i a l s from us all the tim e . j 10 q. Did you sell them material from 1945 on into : 11 the 1960's? 12 A. Yes, a l t hough ma i n l y -- yes, I'd say we did. 13 G e n e r a l l y b e c a u s e they w a n t e d m a t e r i a l in a h u r r y 14 and if we had to shi p it t h r o u g h V a l l e y Forge, t h e y 15 w e r e r u n n i n g b a c k l o g g e d then. We had to ke e p as 16 m u c h as we c o u l d in the w a r e h o u s e . It s p o i l e d them. 17 q. When you w ould sell to a customer, did you j 18 make a practice of doing some sort of a b ackground 19 investigation about the customer before you would 20 sell the product? 2 1 A. If it w e r e any -- i n v o l v e d a n y s i z e a b l e 22 amount of work, before we'd get into that we would 23 h a v e to t a k e it up w i t h o u r h o m e o f f i c e to see if 24 they w a n t e d to go out of the t e r r i t o r y or okay the 25 d oing s o m e t h i n g d i f f e r e n t l y . They more or less bid 400 M A R K F T ST RE f t Rrh A D f i P h i a Pfi iQifrf KftIPCI-COHCn r A H D T DCDODTIMr; ccowir*c PHONE (215' 928 9300 DWIGHT LORD SATTERTHWAITE 1 3 7 1 as a contractor. 2 Q. Now, I'm not talking about contract work 3 where you have to arrange for the people to go out 4 and put the i n s u l a t i o n on. I'm just talking 5 g e n e r a l l y a b o u t s e l l i n g B a l d w i n -- E h r e t -- H i 11 s u p p l i e s 6 or m a t e r i a l s to purchasers. 7 A. 8 q. Yes. Would you do some sort of a credit check or 9 some kind of a background check on the customer or 10 w o u l d you just sell them the stuff if they w a n t e d it? 11 A. Well, if it was a n e w c u s t o m e r , s o m e b o d y we 12 w e r e n ' t selling generally, I would ask for a credit 13 reference or get Valley Forge to ask for a credit 14 reference. 15 Q. Would you check on anything else about them 16 besides whether their credit was good, anything else 17 that you had to check? 18 A. Well, mainly what they would furnish me with 19 or __ e ither the i n f o r m a t i o n in, or give me a c o p y 20 of the D and B Report. 21 Q. Dun and Bradstreet Report? 22 A. Yes, on the case -- firm involved. 23 q. Now, you o c c a s ionally sold Well, it s 24 more than occasionally. You sold asbestos products 25 to the P h i l a d e l p h i a Naval S hipyard, right? You said 4 ^ M AM Kf T f,7 f T HniPES-coHcn PHONE 928 9J0C DWIGHT LORD SATTERTHWAITE 38 1 already that you had? 2 A. 3 Q. 4 5 Yeah . Did you ever send -- MR. LEDWITH: Off the r e c o r d . ( D i s c u s s i o n h e l d o f f t h e r e c o r d .) 6 BY MS. HALPERN: 7 Q. When you sold material to the Philadelphia 8 Naval Shipyard, and any other Shipyard that you sold 9 to, what factors did you c o n s i d e r when you were 10 deciding how to make the sale? Obviously you don't 11 have to check the federal government s credit 12 reference, but were there other factors that you 13 considered, or not? 14 The price we would quote them, charge them, 15 w o u l d d e p e n d on s e v e r a l factors. It w a s one, 16 w h e t h e r it w a s a h u n d r e d d o l l a r o r d e r or a h u n d r e d 17 t h o u s a n d d o l l a r order, w h i c h they ha d -- h u n d r e d 18 t h o u s a n d d o l l a r s is a l i t t l e h i g h for one, but we 19 ha d -- you had to c h eck -- cre d i t was never a 20 q u e s t i o n if you were dealing with the government. 21 And we made sure that the material that we furnished 22 to the Philadelphia Naval Shipyard met their 23 speci fication. 24 Q. 25 Okay. Did you ever go y o u r s e l f or send 400 m a r k e t s t r e e t Pm 11 A n t i p m i a p a l o i r * . HMPES-COHCn /'miDT DCDrtoTikin ccDuirp PHONE (215) 920 9300 Sii DWIGHT LORD SATTERTHWAITE 39 1 somebody to check to see h o w the m a t e r i a l s were 2 being installed at the Shipyard? 3 A. Not really, no, b e c a u s e they were doing all 4 their own. The Navy Yard had maybe a hundred 5 p i p e c o v e r e r s e m p l o y e d in the f o r t i e s and fifties. 6 Q. Did you ever ask any Navy personnel questions 7 about how your materials were being used? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Did you have any reason to? 10 A. No. P r i m a r i l y they were going into the 11 making of vessels or refurbishing them, equipping 12 vessels, m a i n t e n a n c e of the v e s s e l s as well as 13 possibly new construction. 14 Q. Nobody from the Philadelphia Naval Shipyard 15 ever made you any promises about how they would use 16 your products once they purchased them, did they? 17 A. Well, they would -- we knew they were using 18 it to i n s u l a t e h o t s u r f a c e s , w h e t h e r it be a p i p e 19 a flat surface . 20 Q. What was your c onnection with Miles Wi 1 son? 21 Did you w o r k for h i m or was he in an o t h e r chain of 22 command altogether? 23 A. He was not i n v o l v e d in the c o n t r a c t s 24 operation as such. 25 Q. Do you recall what his title was? 400 MARKET STREET P-4li A f IP I P H I A P A 1 U 1 f. KlPCI-COHCn r>Aiid t ncnAnniLir c c o w i p c PHONE (215) 928 9300 DWIGHT LORD S A T T E R T H W A ITE 1 ** 40 ! 1 A. (No R e s p o n s e .) 2 Q. Was he i n v o l v e d in s a les? 3 A . He wa s i n v o l v e d in sales, I think, b ut I 4 think completely out of Trenton, wasn't he; out of 5 Baldwin Hill. 6 Q. Did you ever sell a n y t h i n g to anybody on an 7 as is b a s i s ? 8 A. On a what? 9 Q. 10 A. As i s ? No. What do you mean, i n s u l a t i n g mat e r i a l ? 11 Q. Right. 12 A. Not to my knowledge. I mean, some goods get 13 damaged, we'd t hrow them out, if the cartons got wet 14 or something, but I can't remember selling damaged 15 insulation. 16 Q. I'm going to ask you about some names and I'd 17 like you to tell me if you know who these people are. 18 D o e s the n a m e J. A. M c C a g u e , 19 M - c -C-A-G-U-E, mean anything to you? 20 A. M-c-C-A- -- 21 Q. 22 A. 23 Q. 24 C-A-G-U-E. Not off -- no, I have to say. All right. H o w a b o u t an F. W a t s o n ? 25 A. Frank Watson. 4OD MA RK ET STREET P H IL A D E LP H IA PA 19106 KMPES-COHEfl COURT REPORTING SERVICE phone (215) 828-9300 DWIGHT LORD SATTERTHWAITE 3 41 j \ 1 Q. Do you recall that name? 2 A. I remember him, yes. I had some dealings 3 with h i m . 4 Q. Do y o u h a v e any idea w h e r e he w o u l d be t o d a y ? ; 5 A. No, I d o n ' t . I d o n ' t k n o w w h e t h e r he w a s -- \ 6 I t h i n k he was s l i g h t l y o l d e r than I and I'm '70 so 7 he's p r o b a b l y r e t i r e d if he's a nywhere. | 8 Q. Did you have any dealing with the people who I 9 did the p u r c h a s i n g for B a l d w i n - H i l l or j j 10 B a l d w i n - E h r e t - H i l l , people like Mr. Forina? i 11 A. Yes. I mean, not really dealing with, but I j j 12 knew him pretty well. i 1 13 Q. Do you k n o w who r e p l a c e d h i m w h e n he left? | j 14 A. N o , I do not . : 15 Q. At the time that you left the Val l e y Forge j 16 p l a n t and t o o k o v e r the c o n t r a c t unit in 17 Philadelphia, did you at that point already know 18 that there might be some problem with breathing 19 asbestos? | ! 20 MR. LEDWITH: I object to that j 21 because it's a leading question. It's been j 22 already gone over. j i 2 3 MS. H A L P E R N : I'm e n t i t l e d to ask j 24 leading questions. He's not my witness, | i 25 counselor. ! 4fKl M A R K F T STREET Ph il a d e l p h ia pa 19 1 % HMPEJ-COHEfl COURT REPORTING SERVICE PHONE (? 15) 928 9300 DWIGHT LORD SATTERTHWAITE 42 1 MR. LEDWITH: I object. It's a 2 leading question. 3 M S . H A L P E R N : W e l l , t h a t ' s f i n e . I '' 4 a third party d e fendant and I'm on cross 5 e x a m i n a t i o n , as far as I'm c o n c e r n e d . 6 BY MS. HALPERN: 7 Q. Did you know that there might be some danger 8 in c o n n e c t i o n w i t h b r e a t h i n g a s b e s t o s prior to the 9 time you left V a l l e y Forge and went to the 10 Philadelphia contract unit? 11 MR. LEDWITH: I object. 12 BY MS. HALPERN: 13 Q. You can answer the question anyway. 14 A. W o u l d y o u r e s t a t e it a g a i n ? 15 Q. At the time that you -- in 1945, when you 16 went to the c o n t r a c t unit in Philadelphia, at that 17 p o i n t in tim e d i d you a l r e a d y k n o w there was some 18 problem or some danger of b r e a t h i n g asbestos or did 19 that knowledge come later? 20 MR. LEDWITH: I object. 21 BY MS . HALPERN 2 22 Q. 23 A . Answer the Yes , I knew 24 Q. Okay . 25 Was that something that had you read 400 MARKET STREET Ar.t->duia da K n iP E S-co H cn r A H D T DCDODTIWr. CCDWIPC PHONE <215) 928-0300 DWIGHT LORD SATTERTHWAITE 4 3 1 or something that you heard or -- 2 MR. LEDWITH: I object to the 3 que s t i o n . 4 THE WITNESS: I could only say again 5 t h a t t h e r e -- if I w a s -- if I w e r e o u t in 6 the p l a n t at any t ime or in the w o r k -- d o i n g 7 a n y t h i n g w i t h this m a t e r i a l -- w h o e v e r w ent 8 into the plant really was supposed to wear a 9 mask at all times b e c a u s e of the -- of the 1 0 dust in the air. Call it a s b e s t o s , m a y b e 11 it's w r o n g or m a y b e i t 1s right b e c a u s e this 12 dust -- the 80 percent magnesia itself, the 13 material was very dusty. And it's exactly - 14 it's a little whiter than the asbestos cement, 15 or asbestos, but they're entirely d i f fe r e n t 16 as far as the i n s u l a t i o n v a l u e is in the 17 magnesia and the asbestos. It's only there 18 because you have to have something there with 19 a fiber tha t -- y o u c ould use f i b e r g l a s s if 20 you wanted t o . 21 MR. LEDWITH: May I have that answer 22 read back? 23 (Whereupon the Court Reporter read 24 back the pending answer.) 25 BY MS. HALPERN: 400 MARKET $T R f FT KflSPEI-COHCft PHONE (215) 928 9300 DWIGHT LORD SATTERTHWAITE 44 1 q. D u r i n g the p e r i o d that you wer e in the 2 c o n t r a c t o f f i c e in P h i l a d e l p h i a , you have t e s t i f i e d 3 that you sold to the Philadelphia Naval Shipyard, 4 you sold to building contractors? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Or s u b - c o n t r a c t o r s , i n s u l a t i o n 7 sub-contractors? 8 A. Insulation contractors and industrial 9 customers. 10 Q. What kind of industrial customers? 11 A. Well, those who -- for instance, Amer i c a n 12 Vi s c o s e for one. 13 q. American West Coast? 14 A. 15 Q. 16 A. Viscose. W h a t k i n d o f c o m p a n y is t h a t ? T h i s is the c o m p a n y t h a t is i n v o l v e d in ou r 17 case in V i r g i n i a and W e s t V i r g i n i a . 18 Q. W h a t k i n d of a c o m p a n y is it? W h a t do t h e y 19 make or do, if you know? 20 A. They make various and different chemicals. 1 21 can't tell you too much about them, but it's a 22 chemical operation. 2 3 q. You sold them asbestos insulation p r o d u c t s ? 24 h' Yes, and tremendous amounts. 25 q. Did you ever buy asbestos insulation products 400 MARKET STREET PHIL ADFl PHIA PA 19106 HfllPES-COHEft C O U R T BFPORTlWr. CPRUIOP PHONE (215) 928 9300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 2 3 24 25 DWIGHT LORD SATTERTHWAITE 45 from other companies such as R a y b e s t o s - M a n h a t t a n or Unarco for resale to the P h iladelphia Naval Shipyard? A . No . Q . Items that you yourself didn't carry? A. Can't think of any. Q For example, did you ever buy any asbestos tape from somebody else and then turn around and sell that to the Philadelphia Shipyard? A. No, not that I recall. Q. I don't have any other questions. MS. DRUCKER: No questions. MR. SCHMIDT: I'd like to just clear up one area here. REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. SCHMIDT: Q* When you were with the Philadelphia branch between -- when you were manager of the Philadelphia branch between 1945 and 1975, who were the customers for the materials warehouse there? A . Who were the customers? Q - Yes, sir. A . Well, it v a r i e d ; and i n d u s t r i a l c u s t o m e r s and plumbing and steam fitting companies who owned their 4<V) MA R KE T STREET F UADELPHIA PA 1910ft Km PES-CO HEn COURT REPORTING S F R V I G P PHONE i2i5)92B 930o DWIGHT LORD SATTERTHWAITE 46 1 own i n s u l a t i o n -- the h e a t i n g c o n t r a c t o r -- in m o s t 2 big jobs the i n s u l a t i o n is kept out of the c o n t r a c t s 3 b e c a u s e the i n s u l a t i o n is so i m p o r t a n t t o d a y t h a t it 4 b e c o m e s a s e p a r a t e b i d or a s u b - b i d . It u s e d to b e 5 that nearly all the pipe covering that was ever used 6 was generally a sub -- generally just a -- just sold 7 to -- direct to the consumer. 8 Q. You i n d i c a t e d for the 1 9 3 6 - 4 5 period that 20 9 percent of your sales were to the Navy. To what 10 extent did you make sales to the Navy out of 11 Philadelphia during the 1945-1975 period? 12 A. You're talking about the amounts? 13 Q . Yes . 14 A. I don't k now that I can even guess at that 15 i n t e l l i g e n t l y . They h ad -- s o m e t i m e s they would 16 ca l l us up and get a s m a l l o r d e r w i t h o u t ev e n 17 c o m p e t i t i o n . Most of it was the r e s u l t of bi d d i n g , 18 and larger one s s p e c i f i c a l l y . I t h i n k it was up to 19 the Navy Yar d to do -- w h a t t h e y did g e n e r a l l y is 20 that they had -- they favored everybody a little bit. 21 In o t h e r w o r d s , a n y b o d y w h o f a i t h f u l l y q u o t e d t h e m 22 on s u b - c o n t r a c t s was going to get an order now and 23 then. They d i d n ' t want it all in one spot. T hey 24 d i d n ' t want to sign a contr a c t . 25 Q. Can you e s t i m a t e for me, as far as mater i a l 400 m a p k f t STREET P M il AOF.l PHIA PA 19106 H n iP E s-co H cn rniJRT RFPOPTINfi FOVirC PHONE (215) 928 9300 DWIGHT LORD SATTERTHWAITE 47 1 sales go, in the 1 9 4 5 - 1 9 7 5 p e r i o d wha t p e r c e n t a g e of 2 the sales of i n s u l a t i o n m a t e r i a l s were to the Navy? 3 A. It w o u l d h a v e to be a real g u e s s , b u t I d sa y - 4 now, of course, y o u ' r e t a l k i n g a b out -- the thing 5 h e r e th a t g e t s a l i t t l e h a i r y a b o u t it is the V a l l e y 6 Forge office b ack at Ehret M a g n e s i a m a i n t a i n e d a 7 r i g h t to q u o t e the U.S. G o v e r n m e n t at any time. In 8 other words, our territory was not considered tight 9 and they -- the Philadelphia Naval Shipyard was 10 t h e y had h a d -- h a d the right, it was said, that we 11 could bid as long as they d i d n ' t say they were going 12 to bid instead, and they didn't or they couldn't. 13 They could. 14 Q. Was there any d i f f e r e n c e like in the size of 15 the sales m a d e from V a l l e y Forge as c o m p a r e d to the 16 size of the sales from Philadelphia? Do you understand that question? 17 18 A. Yes, I t h i n k I do. But most of the time most of the Navy - 19 20 the Philadelphia Naval Shipyard material required 21 i n s p e c t i o n b e f o r e s h i p m e n t , m o s t of it. So, 22 t h e refore, m o s t l y it was sh i p p e d from the plant 23 b e c a u s e th e i n s p e c t o r h a d w o r k in t h e p l a n t to do, 24 other things to do. I mean, the Navy -- they alm o s t 25 h a d a m a n t h e r e p e r m a n e n t l y . But t h e y h a d one o u t 400 m a r k e t s t r e e t r , ^ 4 M Afkt i D u l l A P A i Q W t f . KM PEJ-CO H Efl n 11 n T n c n n D T I k lO C C O W IC C PHONE [215)928 9300 DWIGHT LORD SATTERTHWAITE 48 1 of N o r r i s t o w n , it was to h e l p -- I'd say 20 or 30 2 hours a week anyway, checking requirements for Navy 3 or Navy s u b . 4 Q. A r e y o u f a m i l i a r w i t h t h e f i r m o f C. E. 5 Thurston? 6 A. Yes. When I say familiar, I mean I know the 7 company. I know M r . Thurston and he used to be a 8 distributor or a contractor for Ehret. 9 q. During the time you w e r e in charge of the 10 P h i l a d e l p h i a branch, 1945 to 1975, h o w were sales to 11 C.E. T h u r s t o n a c c o m p l i s h e d ? T h a t is, w e r e t h e y 12 through Valley Forge or were they through 13 Philadelphia primarily? 14 A. Never through me. 15 q. Were they handled then by Valley Forge? 16 A. Yes. Our territory -- see, really, the 17 b r a n c h ' s t e r r i t o r y was b a s i c a l l y limited to the five 18 metropolitan counties and Philadelphia. That was 19 our territory. However, if A m e r i c a n Viscose w a n t e d 20 s o m e t h i n g d o n e and they w a n t e d it done in Nitro, 21 West Virginia, we went there. But basically we 22 hired local and did local work. 23 We kept the warehouse fairly well 24 s t o c k e d so -- b e c a u s e it was the w a i t i n g time at the 25 plant. I mean, you could get an emergency. We had 400 MARKET STREET P h i l a d e l p h i a p a 1 9 1 O6 KHIPCS-COHCn enilRT RFPnRTINO SFRVICF PHONE (2151 928 9300 DWIGHT LORD SATTERTHWAITE 49 1 e v e r y b o d y got to d e p e n d on us for fast d e l i v e r i e s 2 because we had a sizeable warehouse. That paid for 3 us. Other p e o p l e w o u l d n ' t m e e t d e l i v e r i e s . It kind 4 of s p o i l e d t h e m b e c a u s e -- it h u r t us in the lo n g 5 run b e c a u s e t h e y e x p e c t e d us to d r o p e v e r y t h i n g . 6 Q. Was it c h e a p e r to h a n d l e the large sales 7 through Valley Forge than through Philadelphia? 8 A. Yes, it w o u l d be, I m e a n , b u t s o m e t i m e s t h e y 9 w a n t e d stuff in a hurry. N o r m a l l y any s i z e a b l e one 10 the order came to us but the order went from me to 11 the factory to ship to the P h i l a d e l p h i a Naval Yard 12 and bill the branch office at our distributorship, 13 r e g u l a r price. And they w o u l d a l l o w us the 14 difference between what we sold the Navy and of 15 course the branch cost were their profits. 16 Q. Now, you have indicated that you realized 17 there was a problem with asbestos shortly after 18 c o m i n g with the c o m p a n y in 1936. My q u e s t i o n -- 19 MR. LEDWITH: I o b j e c t to that. I'm 20 not sure he said that. 21 MR. SCHMIDT: W o u l d you find that 22 part of the 2 3 beg inning . here. It's in the 24 I just want to ask the q uestion: What did 2 5 you mean by shortly after. 400 MARKET STREET Ph il a d e l p h ia pa i9 ir> f KniPEi-coHcn COURT REPORTING SERVICE phone [215) 92B9300 \ X DWIGHT LORD SATTERTHWAITE 51 1 Q. What did you mean by shortly after coming to 2 Ehret, when you understood that be the general 3 feeling? i 4 A. Com i n g to Ehret? 5 Q. What did you mean by shortly after coming to 6 Ehret? 7 A. Shortly after beginning employment with Ehret? 8 Q. Yes . 9 A. Okay . 10 Well, that w o u l d be 1936, is w h e n I 11 started working for Ehret Magnesia Manu f a c t u r i n g 12 C o m p a n y . A n d I r e m a i n e d at the h o m e o f f i c e in 13 Valley Forge until they sent me down to the branch 14 o f f i c e in 1945. So I w a s nin e y e ars in V a l l e y F o rge 15 before I ever went to Philadelphia. 16 MR. SCHMIDT: Could you read that 17 back aloud, please, again. 18 (Whereupon the Court Reporter read 19 back the following questions and answers: 20 "q . What was this general feeling 2 1 that you mentioned? 22 "a . You know, that -- q . As far as asbestos, yes, sir. 23 24 "A. I t h i n k the f e e l i n g in 25 general was that the more you were around 4.V) M A R K f T STREFT Ck,n A n t I UMIA O A IQIOf. H f1 IP 5 -C O H C n r n i l O T R P O rM a T IK JO C F P U ir F PHONE (2151 928 9300 DWIGHT LORD SATTERTHWAITE 52 1 a s b e s t o s in a pure form of any kind, the more 2 l i k e l y it w o u l d be to c a u s e you t r ou bl e, 3 probably. 4 "Q. Are you talking about lung 5 trouble? i 6 "A. I would say that would be the j i j 7 main thing. i 8 "Q. Andwhendidyoufirst i j 9 u nderstand that to be the case? j 10 " a. Well, shortly after I started ; 11 w o r k t h e r e ." I 12 BY MR. SCHMIDT: 13 q. My q u e s t i o n is: W h a t did you m e a n when you | Ij 14 said shortly after coming to work there? j 15 A. The work at V a l l e y Forge? i 16 Q. Y e s , sir. i 17 A. Say that again, what I didn't answer. 18 q. Well, no, you a n s w e r e d the q u e s t i o n s I asked 19 you before. I'm just going to ask you a limited 20 question about what you answered. I don't 21 understand part of your answer, that's all. 22 MR. S C H M I D T : P l e a s e read it b a c k 23 again? 24 (Whereupon the Court Reporter read 25 back the following questions and answers: 400 MARKET STREET P h i l a d e l p h i a p a 1 9 1 O6 KillPES-COHEn COURT REPORTING SERVICE PHONE (2151 928 9300 DWIGHT LORD SATTERTHWAITE |I 53 ' 1 "Q. What was this general feeling 2 that you mentioned? 3 "A. You know, that - 4 "Q. As far as a s b e stos, yes, sir. 5 "A. I t h i n k the f e e l i n g in 6 general was that the more you were around 7 a s b e s t o s in a pure form of any kind, the m o r e 8 l i k e l y it w o u l d b e to c a a u s e y o u t r o u b l e , 9 probably. 10 "Q. Are you talking about lung 11 trouble? 12 "A. I would say that would be the 13 main thing. 14 "Q. And when did you first 1 5 understand that to be the case? 16 "A. Well, shortly after I started 17 w o r k t h e r e ." 18 BY MR. SCHMIDT: 19 Q. My q u e stion now is: What did you mean when 20 you said shortly after you started working there, 21 within what period of time? 22 A. I o n l y w o r k e d in t w o l o c a t i o n s . One was the 2 3 Valley Forge plant. And the other one was 24 C u m b e r l a n d Street. And I k n o w that I s t a r t e d in '36 25 at V a l l e y Forge. And I w a s t r a n s f e r r e d to 4'X) M AR KET STREET P M i_A f> E lP H IA PA 19106 Hmpcs-coHcn rnilRT RFPnRTIMO SFRVICF PHONE (? 15) 928 9300 DWIGHT LORD SATTERTHWAITE 54 1 P h i l a d e l p h i a in '45, in '45 as c o n t r a c t m a n a g e r . 2 Q. How soon after you started with the company 3 in 1936, a p p r o x i m a t e l y h o w soon was it b e f o r e you 4 came to the u n d e r s t a n d i n g that has just been 5 mentioned? 6 A. What understanding? 7 Q. That asbestos was a prob l e m or could be a 8 prob1e m . 9 MR. LEDWITH: I object to that 10 question. 11 THE W I T N E S S : He o b j e c t e d to that. 12 BY MR. SCHMIDT: 13 Q. That d o e s n ' t m e a n that it s h o u l d n ' t be 14 answered. 15 A. R e p e a t it on c e more. 16 Q. How soon a f t e r y o u s t a r t e d at V a l l e y F o r g e in 17 1936 did you come to understand that breathing 18 asbestos could be a problem? 19 MR. LEDWITH: I o b j e c t to that 20 que st ion t o o . 21 THE WITNESS: Which means I'm not 22 p e r m i t t e d to say. 23 MR. LEDWITH: You can answer the 24 question. I am registering my objection 25 on the record. The Court will decide the 4f>j MAHKFT STREET P H IL A D E LP H IA PA 19106 H M P C J -C O H E n COURT REPORTING SERVICE PHONE (215) 928 9300 DWIGHT LORD SATTERTHWAITE 5 5 1 o b j e c t i o n at a later date. 2 THE WITNESS: Uh-huh . 3 Now, will you word me just once more 4 so I k n o w it's right. 5 BY MR. SCHMIDT: 6 Q. Okay. 7 MS. H A L P E R N : If I c o u l d i n t e r p o s e at 8 this point. We're going to have the q u e s t i o n 9 again and then w e're g oing to have an 10 obj e c t i o n again and then we're going to be 11 a s k i n g t h e q u e s t i o n a g a i n . It m i g h t be a lot 12 simpler if you state a cont i n u i n g obj e c t i o n 13 to a p a r t i c u l a r q u e stion so we don't have to 14 have an o b j e c t i o n e v e r y time the q u e s t i o n is 15 asked . 16 MR. LEDWITH: I prefer to register my 17 objection to each question. 18 MS. H A L P E R N : In o t h e r words, you 19 prefer to interrupt the line of quest i o n i n g 20 each time with an o b j e c t i o n ? 21 MR. L E D W I T H : C h a r a c t e r i z e it as y o u 22 wish, but I will reserve my right to object 2 3 to the question. 24 MR. SCHMIDT: One more time. I'm 25 sorry, read back the testimony from the 400 MAHKF T STPEE T P hil a d e l.p h ia p a i9 ir)f KMEPCS-COHEfl n n ilR T REPORTING SERVICE PHONE (215) 928 9300 DWIGHT LORD SATTERTHWAITE 56 1 beginning, those three questions there. 2 Off the r e c o r d . 3 (Discussion held off the record.) 4 (Whereupon the Court Reporter read 5 back the p e r t i n e n t t e s t i m o n y as follows: 6 "q . What was this general feeling 7 that you mentioned? 8 "A. You know, that - 9 "Q. As far as asbestos, yes, sir. 10 "A. I t h i n k the feeling in 11 general was that the more you were around 12 asbestos in a pure form of any kind, the more 13 l i k e l y it w o u l d be to c a u s e you trouble, 14 probably. 15 "q . Are you talking about lung 16 trouble? 17 "A. I would say that would be the 18 main thing . 19 "q . And when did you first 20 u n d e r s t a n d that to be the case? 21 "A. Well, shortly after I started 22 work there." 2 3 BY MR. SCHMIDT; 24 Q Do you r e m e m b e r me a s k i n g those q u e s t i o n s and 25 you giving me those answers a little while ago that 400 MARKET STREET Ph il a d e l p h ia pa 1 9 1 0 6 HMPES-COHEn COURT REPORTING SERVICE PHONE (215) 928 9300 DWIGHT LORD SATTERTHWAITE 57 1 she just read? 2 A. I w o u l d t h i n k so. I am sort of in m y dotage, 3 but I think I can - 4 Q. In c o n n e c t i o n w i t h t h o s e q u e s t i o n s , w h a t did 5 you mean when you said shortly after you came there? 6 A. To Ehret Magnesia? 7 Q. Y e s , sir. 8 A. Shortly. How long a period after I came 9 there -- in there? j ii 1 0 Q. Yes. | I 11 A. That what happened, thatI - 12 q. That you came to unders t a n d what she jsut 13 read? 14 A. 15 Q. How long a period of time after - You came there did you come to understand 16 17 A. Oh, I w o u l d say -- I d o n ' t know, b u t v e r y 18 shortly. I mean, although I was hired to do a job 19 that was in p a r t of the p l a n t tha t did not h a v e the 20 asbestos problem, b e c a u s e it was an office building, 21 but that I r e a l i z e d that I -- that my w o r k in the 22 sales department would occasionally take me out into 2 3 the plant. My boss, Mr. DuBois, would sometimes 24 want something out there from the shipping 2 5 department or something and send me out into the 400 MARKET STREET PHILADELPHIA PA 19106 HniPES-coHsrt r n i l R T B P D O RT IMO C P B V IC P phone (215) 928 9300 DWIGHT LORD SATTERTHWAITE 58 1 p l a n t and get it 2 Q By very shortly do you mean less than a year 3 or more than a year? 4 MR. LEDWITH: Object. 5 THE WITNESS: What do you mean by 6 very shortly? I mean, less than what? 7 BY MR. S C H M I D T : 8 Q. Less than a year or more than a year? 9 A. On w hat ? 10 Q. You used the phrase very shortly. What did 11 you mean by that? 12 A. Very shortly after -- 13 Q. Coming there? 14 A. I don't know exactly but I would think very 15 I d i d n ' t -- the first 30 days, I w o u l d say. M a y b e 16 sooner. It w a s a k n o w n fact it was a p r o b l e m . 17 Q. Thank you. I don't have anyfurther 18 que st ion s . 19 20 RECROSS EXAMINATION 21 22 BY MR. L E D W I T H 2 3 Q . Mr. S a t t e r t h w a i t e , d ur i n g the q u e s t i o ni n g by 24 Miss Halpern you referred to American Viscose 25 Company? 400 m a r k e t STREET PHILADELPHIA PA 19106 HMPES-COHCn COURT REPORTING SERVICE PHONE (215) 928 9300 DWIGHT LORD SATTERTHWAITE 59 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And you said that, w o r d s to the e f f e c t that 3 it's i n v o l v e d in cas e s in V i r g i n i a . 4 A . W e l l , it ' s -- I a s s u m e d it, t h a t t h i s t h i n g 5 s t a r t e d -- I h e a r d this s t a r t e d in V i r g i n i a . And 6 somehow I got information, somewhere, I don't know, 7 t h a t it m u s t be t h e s e t w o -- t h e s e jobs b e c a u s e we 8 n e v e r c o n t r a c t e d in V i r g i n i a . Never h a d men in 9 Virginia. 10 Q. But you believe that this case that this 11 d e p o s i t i o n is b e i n g t a k e n in i n v o l v e s A m e r i c a n 12 Viscose Company? 13 A. W e l l , I d o n 't k n o w h o w to a n s w e r that. I 14 mean, we bid on the work in Philadelphia. The home 15 office was in P h i l adelphia. All my d e a l i n g s with 16 the c o m p a n y was in P h i l a d e l p h i a . And e v e r y t h i n g was 1 7 handled out of Philadelphia. And I think in the 18 contracts all we did was man the job for them. All 19 we did was hire people l o c a l l y to apply the material 20 which we furnished b e c a u s e it -- we o p e r a t e d under a 21 union shop, pipe i n s u l a t o r s . And we w e r e a l l o w e d to 22 o n l y send a m a n and a h e l p e r out in the ' . 2 3 Q - W e l l , to g o back, to m y o r i g i n a l q u e s t i o n ; Do 24 you know of any cases arising out of American 25 Viscose? 4lJ MAHKE T STPEFT Ph il a d e l p h ia p a t9 io f, KniPCS-COHEfl COURT REPORTING SERVICE PHONE (215) 928 9300 DWIGHT LORD SATTERTHWAITE 61 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. W h a t h a p p e n e d in that 30 day period? 3 A. I was -- As far as I k n e w I was h ired as an 4 assistant to the sales manager and I don't recall 5 what I m e a n t by that if I said a ten or w h a t e v e r 6 w a i t i n g p e r i o d or w h a t e v e r it w a s y o u said, 30. 7 Q. I used thep e r i o d 30 days. 8 A. 30 d ay s . 9 Well, I g o t a "tip fr o m a f r i e n d of 10 m i n e to go up and see a Mr. Joh n D u B o i s at a p l a n t 11 called Ehret Magnesia Manufacturing Company, which I 12 had never h eard of, who w ants a y o ung man help h i m 13 out. I w e n t up t h e r e , m e t Mr. D u B o i s , m e t Mr. Ehret.. 14 And t h e y h i r e d me. T h a t was in 1936. And in 1945 15 they put me out to the contract division. 16 My employment with Ehret -- with -- 17 our work with American Viscose goes back from way 18 back. It just so h a p p e n e d that t h e r e -- if t h ose - 19 an e x p a n s i o n plant had been b u i l t in Ne w Jersey or 20 C o n n e c t i c u t or New York, we w o u l d n ' t have had a 21 pr aye r . 22 Q. Well, to get b a c k w h e n you s t a r t e d in 1936, 23 did you know anything about the insulation business 24 when you started? 25 A. Not really, no. I k n e w there was such a 4i>0 M A R K E T STREET P h i l a d e l p h i a p a 1 9 1 0 ^) KfllPES-COHEn COURT REPORTING SERVICE PHONE (215) 928 9300 DWIGHT LORD SAT TE RTHWAITE 62 1 t h i n g b u t , y o u k n o w , b u t p i p e c o v e r i n g - - I h a d s e e n -- 2 I j u s t h a p p e n e d t o s e e it, n o t l o o k i n g f o r it b u t I -- 3 and then s u d d e n l y I -- as soon as I started there I 4 s t a r t e d to r e a d b o o k s a b o u t it. 5 Q. 6 A. About what? A b o u t i n s u l a t i o n and w h a t it d o e s and w h a t it 7 d o e s n ' t do and w h a t it -- h o w it is a p p l i e d , h o w 8 i t 's m a d e . 9 Q. Did you read books about asbestos at that 10 time? 11 A. Pamphlets and things, yes. 12 Q. Do you r e m e m b e r - 13 A. A c t u a l l y it d i d n ' t seem to make much 14 difference because what I was doing then was just 15 a s s i s t i n g the v i c e p r e s i d e n t in c h a r g e of sales and 16 learning a little bit about how he handled his job, 17 what his duties were. What they were apparently 18 thinking eventually of somebody who could replace 19 h i m in "X" n u m b e r of years. 20 Q. Did you learn anything about masks when you 21 first went there? 22 A. 23 0 . About what? Masks for- y o u r f a c e ? 24 A . No . 25 Q . No? <00 MARKET STREET P H ILA D E LP H IA PA 19106 KfllFES-COHEn COURT REPORTING SERVICE PHONE (215) 928 9300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 DWIGHT LORD SATTERTHWAITE 63 A. Not w h e n I first went t here b e c a u s e -- not until I saw how the plant -- I guess saw them, some of them wearing masks. This was back early when they weren't very popular. Now I think they have rules, have had for some time now, that if th e y ' r e c a u g h t -- I just h e a r d this l a t e l y -- if a m a n in the p l a n t up t h e r e no w is c a u g h t w i t h o u t a face m a s k in c e r t a i n a r e a s he is fired on the spot. Q. W h a t p l a n t is tha t ? A. Valley Forge. Q. You heard that recently? A. Yes. That's what I heard. Scuttlebutt. Q. Can you tell us - A. But they're having trouble with the masks up there where there's dust, asbestos all over the place. Q. When did you first become aware of any problems with asbestos? MR. SCHMIDT: repetitious. Objected to as THE WITNESS: Well, I said when I started to work there. I k n e w somebody who had worked there, but he said there should be no problem. Y o u ' r e not -- d o n ' t -- they w o n ' t take you in the p l ant. You d o n ' t h a v e 400 m a r k e t s t r e p t Ph il a d e l p h ia pa i9ic*; KMPEJ-COHEn COURT REPORTING SERVICE PHONE (215) 928 9300 DWIGHT LORD SATTERTHWAITE 64 1 to go in the plant. You d o n't have to go out 2 in the -- y o u ' l l be in an o f f i c e i s o l a t e d - 3 in a b u i l d i n g t h a t ' s s e p a r a t e from the I 4 m a n u f a cturing and warehousing operation. And 5 you should have no p r o b l e m . He said the 6 offices are air conditioned. Later, I think. 7 But, so, I ve r y s e l d o m got out into the plant. i 8 As I say, only w h e n I had a p r o b l e m w i t h the 9 shipping department, the shipping department j i 10 was in the corner of a part of the plant ! 11 right nearest the office building. 12 BY MR. LEDWITH: 13 Q. Was there a p r o b l e m in the plant? 14 A. What? 15 Q. Was therea problem? 16 A. Well, there was -- there was no question 17 about the dust that was around. 18 Q. T h ere was dust in the p l a n t ? 19 A. Yes, p a r t i c u l a r l y in the loading platform, 20 w h e r e they p a c k e d them in the c a r t o n s there w ould be 21 a c l o u d of d u s t go up and t h a t d u s t -- this is w h y -- 22 and in h a n d l i n g any of t h o s e a s b e s t o s slabs, t h e y 2 3 w o u l d tend to dust. And the p lant was told by the 24 safety people they would have to wear a mask. And 25 m o s t of the h e l p in the p l a n t a reas where this was 400 MARKET STREET P H itA D E LPHIA PA 19106 KMPCS-COHin COURT REPORTING SERVICE PHONF (215) 928-9300 DWIGHT LORD SATTERTHWAITE 65 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 h a p p e n i n g w e r e p r e t t y -- not v e r y well e d u c a t e d , to say the least. I'm not going to say black because they weren't all black, but they would not -- they could not stand that thing on their nose. And they'd throw them way. And they'd get warned once or twice, then they got fired. Then they get a set of new ones and the same thing would happen. Q, Set of new what, new employees? A. New employees. Most of the -- the wages were low and there was u n e mployment and this job took no skills, really, just p u t t i n g stuff in cartons. But - And they wouldn't wear their masks half the time and they'd get fired when they didn't maybe one morning. So it c e r t a i n l y was a -- it had to be a h a z a r d working there steadily, I'm sure. Q. Because the dust -- A. Uh-huh, hazard of b r e a t h i n g because even the mask, they c e r tainly did -- stopped ninety percent of the p r o b l e m , but they w o u l d get so hard, so t o u g h on the guys at 110 degrees out there. They were tight masks. They would just -- they'd just throw them down in d i s g u s t s o m e t i m e s and w a l k out. They c a n ' t s t a n d , -- c a n ' t b r e a t h e w i t h it a n d c a n ' t b r e a t h e w i t h o u t it. Q. I have no other q u estions, Mr. S a t t e r t h w a i t e . 4<X) M A ft K ET ST R f f 7 P H IL A D E L P H IA PA 1910* HniPES-coHcn COURT REPORTING SERVICE PHONE (215) 928 9300 DWIGHT LORD SATTERTHWAITE 66 1 MS. HALPERN: No questions. 2 MR. SCHMIDT: No more q u e s t i o n s 3 4 (W i t n e s s ex c u s e d . ) 5 (D e p o s i t i o n c o n c l u d e d a t 1 : 2 5 p .m . ) 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 2 2 2 3 24 2 5 400 MARKET STREET P H ILA D E LP H IA PA 19106 KillPCI-COHCn COURT REPORTING SERVICE PHONE (215) 926 9300 DWIGHT LORD SATTERTHWAITE 67 1 CERTIFICATE 2 COMMONWEALTH OF PENNSYLVANIA: 3 SS 4 COUNTY OF PHILADELPHIA 5 6 I, B r i g i t t e A. S t r a i n , R e g i s t e r e d 7 P r o fessional R e p o r t e r - N o t a r y Public within and for 8 the County of Philadelphia, Commonwealth of 9 Pennsylvania, do hereby certify that the foregoing 10 testimony of Dwight Lord Satterthwaite was taken 11 b e f o r e me at 427 Norma Drive, Ambler, P e n n s y l v a n i a , 12 on M o n d a y , A u g u s t 29, 1983; t h a t the f o r e g o i n g 13 t e s t i m o n y was t a ken in s h o r t h a n d b y m y s e l f and 14 reduced to typing under my d i r e c t i o n and control, 15 that the f o r e g o i n g pages 1 to 66 c o n t a i n a true and 16 correct tran s c r i p t i o n of all of the t e s t i m o n y of 17 said Witnes s . 18 19 20 B R I G I T T E A. S T R A I N 21 Notary Public , I I 2 2 2 3 24 ? 2 5 400 m a r k e t s t r e e t Ph i l AOfc LRHIA PA 19106 KniPEI-COHEf) COURT REPORTING SERVICE PHONE (216) 928 9300 DWIGHT LORD SATTERTHWAITE 68 1 I have read the foregoing deposition 2 and the answers given by me are true and 3 correct, to the best of my knowledge, 4 information and belief. 5 6 7 8 DWIGHT LORD SATTERTHWAITE 9 10 11 12 13 Sworn to and subscribed b e f o r e me, a Notary Public 14 this day of 1983. 15 NOTARY PUBLIC 16 17 18 19 20 21 2 2 2 3 24 25 4 On MAhKf cT S T H f E T P h i l a d e l p h ia ha 19106 uniPEj-coHcn m iiR T REPORTING SFRVIGF PHONE (215) 928 9300