Document Vj3YwZvnVnz40RKjjBgGwoeLo
FILENAME: Flintkote (FLK) DATE: 1984 Apr DOC#: FLK082 DOCUMENT DESCRIPTION: Legal - Deposition o f A rth u r R. Hooker
1
r IN THE SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA
IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF ALAMEDA
!
In Re: Sterns,
No. 573686-9
i
Brown & Finney Consolidated
For Discovery Related Shipyard
and Applicator Asbestos Cases.
____________ _______ / i1
/
LV
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IN THE SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA i
IN AND FOR THE CITY AND COUNTY OF SAN FRANCISCO
t
i
r
In Re: Sterns,
No. 805555
j
Brown & Finney Consolidated
j
For Discovery Related
Shipyard and Applicator
Asbestos Cases.
_______ /
DEPOSITION OF ARTHUR R. HOOKER
April 12, 1984
t
April 13, 1984
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
REPORTED BY DEBORAH WONG BROOKS C.S.R. NO. 5223
337-17TH STREET SUITE 100 OAKLAND, CALIFORNIA 94612 (415) 835-3993
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FvAM *0 i 93335 FLO 00003022
1-A
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IN THE SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA
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IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES
3
4
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DOROTHY ST. JACQUE, etc., et al.,
6
Plaintiffs,
7
vs.
NO. C 137 465
8
JOHNS-MANVILLE, etc., et al.,
9
Defendants.
/
10
AND ALL RELATED CASES.
11
/
12
13
14
IN THE SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA
15
IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF ALAMEDA
16
17
18
IN RE: FIBREBOARD PLANTWORKERS
ASBESTOS CASES
19
(KAZAN & KILBOURNE)
CONSOLIDATED FOR DISCOVERY,
20
Plaintiff,
21
vs.
22 JOHNS-MANVILLE CORPORATION,
23
et al.,
24
Defendants
/
25
No. 537064-7
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27
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FvAri 6933
FID 000030
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFICO SHORTHAND REPORTERS
r ocot oo
i
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exhibits
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3
4
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PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 1
A PHOTOCOPY OF A TWO-PAGE
6
DOCUMENT ENTITLED "DESCRIPTION
OF PACKAGING OF FLINTKOTE
7
ASBESTOS PRODUCTS."
8
PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 2
A PHOTOCOPY OF A SEVEN-PAGE
9
DOCUMENT ENTITLED "FLINTKOTE
ASBESTOS INDUSTRIAL PRODUCTS,"
10
DATED 7/27/83, AND A PHOTOCOPY
OF A ONE-PAGE DOCUMENT ENTITLED
11
"ADDITIONAL ASBESTOS PRODUCTS
ONCE MANUFACTURED BY FLINTKOTE,"
12
DATED 8/3/83.
13
PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 3
A PHOTOCOPY OF A TWO-PAGE
14
DOCUMENT ENTITLED "SUMMARY OF
FIBER USED BY THE FLINTKOTE
15
COMPANY (1961-1971 INCLUSIVE)."
16
PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 4
A PHOTOCOPY OF A ONE-PAGE
17
DOCUMENT ENTITLED "CONTAINS
ASBESTOS DUST."
18
19
PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 5
A PHOTOCOPY OF A ONE-PAGE
20
DOCUMENT ENTITLED "CAUTION,"
AND WITH THE WORDS "ASBESTOS
21
CAUTION LABEL" IN HANDWRITING
AND CIRCLED AT THE TOP OF
22
THE PAGE.
23
PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 6
A PHOTOCOPY OF A ONE-PAGE
24
DOCUMENT ENTITLED "ASBESTOS."
25
PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 7
A PHOTOCOPY OF A ONE-PAGE
26
DOCUMENT ENTITLED "CAUTION."
27
28
PAGE 58 88
160 173 174
175 175
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PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED Sh ORTHANO REPORTERS
1
2
3 4
5 6
7 8
9
10
MEMORANDUM DATED NOVEMBER 17,
1971, TO MR. J. R. ADAMS
11
FROM JOSEPH E. FOGARTY.
12
PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 10
181
A PHOTOCOPY OF A ONE-PAGE
13
MEMORANDUM ON THE LETTERHEAD
OF THE FLINTKOTE COMPANY,
14
DATED APRIL 21, 1972, TO
MR. E. A. OPILA, FROM A. R.
13
HOOKER, JR., AND A PHOTOCOPY
OF ONE PAGE FROM THE EMPLOYMENT
16
SAFETY AND HEALTH GUIDE
ENTITLED "NEW DEVELOPMENTS."
17
18
PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 11
185
A PHOTOCOPY OF A ONE-PAGE
19
MEMORANDUM ON THE LETTERHEAD
OF THE FLINTKOTE COMPANY,
20
DATED NOVEMBER 6, 1969, TO
MR. D. POIRIER, FROM A. R.
21
HOOKER, JR.
22
PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 12
188
A PHOTOCOPY OF A ONE-PAGE
23
DOCUMENT UNTITLED WITH
"PAGE 1 OF 2" IN THE UPPER
24
RIGHT-HAND CORNER.
25
PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 13
190
A PHOTOCOPY OF A TWO-PAGE
26
DOCUMENT ENTITLED "INSTRUCTION
i
SHEET, ASBESTOS HANDLING
I
27
RE-INSTRUCTION SHEET FOR
RECEIVING PERSONNEL."
28
cp :c>
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
Fv
certifieo shorthand reporters
FL
in
1
exhibits
2
3
4
5- PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 14 A PHOTOCOPY OF A ONE-PAGE DOCUMENT
6
ENTITLED "ASBESTOS HAZARD INSTRUCTION
SHEET FOR EMPLOYEES."
7
S
PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 15
A PHOTOCOPY OF A ONE-PAGE DOCUMENT
9
ENTITLED "INSTRUCTION SHEET,
ASBESTOS HANDLING RE-INSTRUCTION
10
SHEET FOR DRY-MIX ROOM EMPLOYEES."
11
PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 16
A PHOTOCOPY OF A FIVE-PAGE DOCUMENT
12
ENTITLED "REPORT OF INVESTIGATION,"
THE FLINTKOTE COMPANY - TILETEX
13
PLANT, BY LEON D. HOROWITZ, CHIEF,
INDUSTRIAL HYGIENE SECTION.
14
15
PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 17
A PHOTOCOPY OF A FOUR-PAGE DOCUMENT,
16
THE FIRST PAGE BEARING THE NUMBERS
"N10-3B.06."
17
18
PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 18
A PHOTOCOPY OF AN EIGHT-PAGE
19
DOCUMENT ENTITLED "ASBESTOS, HOW TO
WORK WITH IT AND PROTECT YOUR HEALTH."
20
21
DEFENDANTS' EXHIBIT A
A PHOTOCOPY OF A TEN-PAGE DOCUMENT
22
ENTITLED "THE FLINTKOTE COMPANY'S
RESPONSES TO PLAINTIFF'S INTER
23
ROGATORIES - SET. NO. 1," A
PHOTOCOPY OF A ONE-PAGE DOCUMENT
24
ENTITLED "CERTIFICATION," AND A
PHOTOCOPY OF A THREE-PAGE PROOF
25
OF SERVICE BY MAIL.
26
PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT 19
A PHOTOCOPY OF A TWO-PAGE DOCUMENT
27
ENTITLED "WARNING LABELS ON PRODUCTS
MANUFACTURED OR SOLD BY FLINTKOTE.
28
PAGE 191 191 193 194 195 240
269
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHANO REPORTERS
COCO
I
EXHIBITS
2
3
4
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PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 20
A PHOTOCOPY OF A ONE-PAGE
6
DOCUMENT ENTITLED "NOW YOU CAN
INSTALL A BEAUTIFUL NEW FLOOR
7
IN NO TIME AT ALL WITH FLINTKOTE
PEEL-STICK REINFORCED VINYL FLOOR
8
T I L E ."
9
PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 21
A PHOTOCOPY OF A FIVE-PAGE
10
LETTER ADDRESSED TO MR. ALBERT
H. FAY, VICE PRESIDENT MARKETING,
11
FROM J. A. MAIN, FLINTKOTE MINES,
LIMITED; A PHOTOCOPY OF AN
12
EIGHT-PAGE DOCUMENT ENTITLED
"TARGET HEALTH HAZARDS, ASBESTOS:
13
AIRBORNE DANGER"; AND A PHOTOCOPY
OF A ONE-PAGE DOCUMENT ENTITLED
14
"ASBESTOS AND HEALTH INFORMATION
FILE."
15
16
PLAINTIFFS* EXHIBIT NO. 22
A PHOTOCOPY OF A ONE-PAGE
17
MEMORANDUM ON THE LETTERHEAD OF
THE FLINTKOTE COMPANY, DATED
18
NOVEMBER 15, 1968. TO MR. H. P.
HEUBNER FROM M. L. JOHNSON.
19
20
PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 23
A PHOTOCOPY OF A ONE-PAGE LETTER
21
DATED FEBRUARY 3, 1969, TO AMERICAN
MUTUAL LIABILITY INSURANCE COMPANY,
22
FROM WALTER N. KNORR, SAFETY
MANAGER; A PHOTOCOPY OF A ONE-PAGE
23
HANDWRITTEN DOCUMENT DATED 1/27/69
TO WALT; A PHOTOCOPY OF A ONE-PAGE
24
HANDWRITTEN LETTER DATED JAN. 27,
1969, TO MR. RALPH McCREARY; A
25
PHOTOCOPY OF A ONE-PAGE LETTER
DATED JANUARY 27, 1969, ADDRESSED
26
TO MR. RALPH McCREARY; AND A
PHOTOCOPY OF A ONE-PAGE HANDWRITTEN
.27
DOCUMENT WITH THE WORDS "SUGGESTED
2ND PARAGRAPH" AT THE TOP OF THE
28
PAGE.
IV PAGE 271 274
276 277
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PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
V
1
EXHIBITS
2
3
PAGE
4
5
PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 24
278
A PHOTOCOPY OF A ONE-PAGE LETTER
6
DATED FEBRUARY 17, 1969, ADDRESSED
TO MR. RALPH McCREARY, FROM
7
WALTER N. KNORR, SAFETY MANAGER.
8
PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 25
278
A PHOTOCOPY OF A ONE-PAGE MEMO
9
ON THE LETTERHEAD OF THE FLINTKOTE
COMPANY, DATED JUNE 29, 1971, TO
10
JOHN PARKER FROM WALTERN. KNORR.
11
PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 26
279
A PHOTOCOPY OF A ONE-PAGE MEMO ON
12
THE LETTERHEAD OF THE FLINTKOTE
COMPANY, DATED JUNE 7, 1972, TO
13
MR. M. L. JOHNSON, MR. J. C. HARKNESS,
MR. H. TAYLOR AND MR. W. HARVEY,
14
FROM WALTER N. KNORR; A PHOTOCOPY OF
A ONE-PAGE DOCUMENT ENTITLED "UNION-
15
INDUSTRY COMPROMISE, NEW OSHA
STANDARD ON ASBESTOS IS SET"; AND
16
A PHOTOCOPY OF AN EIGHT-PAGE DOCUMENT
ENTITLED "12 FIBERS, 5 FIBERS, 2 FIBERS."
17
18
PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 27
280
A PHOTOCOPY OF A ONE-PAGE MEMO
19
ON THE LETTERHEAD OF THE FLINTKOTE
COMPANY, DATED JUNE 14, 1972, TO
20
MR. JOHN SZAL FROM A. R. HOOKER, JR.,
AND A PHOTOCOPY OF A THREE-PAGE
21
LETTER ON THE LETTERHEAD OF ASBESTOS
INFORMATION ASSOCIATION/NORTH AMERICA,
22
DATED JUNE 12, 1972, TO AIA/NA MEMBER
COMPANIES AND VARIOUS OTHERS, FROM
23
M. M. SWETONIC, EXECUTIVE SECRETARY.
24
PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 28
282
A PHOTOCOPY OF A ONE-PAGE MEMO ON
25
THE LETTERHEAD OF THE FLINTKOTE
COMPANY, DATED SEPTEMBER 27, 1972,
26
FROM S. WEISS.
27 28
CO CO
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
vi
1
EXHIBITS
2
3
4
5
PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 29
A PHOTOCOPY OF A ONE-PAGE MEMO
6
ON THE LETTERHEAD OF THE
FLINTKOTE COMPANY, DATED JANUARY 30,
7
1983, TO MR. E. A. OPILA AND VARIOUS
OTHERS, FROM M. L. JOHNSON; A
8
PHOTOCOPY OF A TWO-PAGE LETTER ON THE
LETTERHEAD OF ASBESTOS INFORMATION
9
ASSOCIATION/NORTH AMERICA, DATED
JANUARY 17, 1973, ADDRESSED TO
10
"GENTLEMEN," FROM MATTHEW M.
SWETONIC, EXECUTIVE SECRETARY; AND
11
A PHOTOCOPY OF A SEVEN-PAGE DOCUMENT
ENTITLED "ASBESTOS, THE SAVER OF
12
LIVES, HAS A DEADLY SIDE."
13
PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 30
A PHOTOCOPY OF A MEMO ON THE
14
LETTERHEAD OF THE FLINTKOTE COMPANY,
DATED MARCH 13, 1973, TO MR. E. A.
15
OPILA AND VARIOUS OTHERS, FROM M. L.
JOHNSON; A PHOTOCOPY OF A TWO-PAGE
16
MEMO ON THE LETTERHEAD OF ASBESTOS
INFORMATION ASSOCIATION/ NORTH AMERICA,
17
DATED FEBRUARY 27, 1973, FROM
MATTHEW M. SWETONIC, EXECUTIVE
18
SECRETARY; AND A PHOTOCOPY OF A
ONE-PAGE DOCUMENT ENTITLED "THE
19
HAZARDS OF SAFETY."
20
PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 31
A PHOTOCOPY OF A ONE-PAGE MEMO
21
DATED NOVEMBER 5, 1973, TO MR. C. H.
BARANOWSKI AND MR. T. H. PARKE,
22
JR.
23
PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 32
A PHOTOCOPY OF A ONE-PAGE LETTER
24
DATED JANUARY 22, 1974, ADDRESSED
TO MR. W. H. NEWTON, PACKAGING
25
MANAGER, FROM C. H. BARANOWSKI,
ASSISTANT MERCHANDISE MANAGER,
26
GYPSUM PRODUCTS.
27
28
PAGE 283
284
284 285 FvAM 6019 FLO 0000
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
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exhibits
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PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 33
A PHOTOCOPY OF A TWO-PAGE MEMO
6
ON THE LETTERHEAD OF THE FLINTKOTE
COMPANY, DATED FEBRUARY 19, 1974,
7
TO MR. M. L. JOHNSON, FROM W. H.
MORTONSON.
8
9
PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 34
A PHOTOCOPY OF A ONE-PAGE MEMO
10
ON THE LETTERHEAD OF THE FLINTKOTE
COMPANY, DATED JUNE 5, 1974, FROM
11
E. A. OPILA; A PHOTOCOPY OF A SEVEN-
PAGE DOCUMENT ENTITLED "ASBESTOS
12
AND YOUR HEALTH"; A PHOTOCOPY OF A
SEVEN-PAGE DOCUMENT ENTITLED
13
"ASBESTOS AND YOUR HEALTH"; AND A
PHOTOCOPY OF A ONE-PAGE DOCUMENT
14
ENTILTED "POTENTIAL HEALTH HAZARD
INSTRUCTIONS."
15
16
PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 35
A PHOTOCOPY OF A ONE-PAGE MEMO
17
ON THE LETTERHEAD OF THE FLINTKOTE
COMPANY, DATED JULY 8, 1974, TO
18
MR. M. C. CARPENTER, FROM A. R.
HOOKER, JR., AND A PHOTOCOPY OF A
19
ONE-PAGE DOCUMENT ON THE LETTERHEAD
OF ASBESTOS INFORMATION ASSOCIATION,
20
ENTITLED "BOARD OF DIRECTORS
MEETING, JUNE 20, 1974.
21
22
PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 36
A PHOTOCOPY OF A ONE-PAGE MEMO
23
DATED SEPTEMBER 23, 1974, FROM
W. H. MORTONSON, AND A PHOTOCOPY OF
24
A THREE-PAGE MEMO ON THE LETTERHEAD
OF ASBESTOS INFORMATION ASSOCIATION,
25
DATED SEPTEMBER 17, 1974, FROM E. M.
FENNER.
26
27
28
vu PAGE 286 286
287
288 FyAM 60 9 FLD 000
CO co
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFICO SHORTHANO REPORTERS
viix
1
EXHIBITS
2
PAGE
3
PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 37
288
A PHOTOCOPY OF A ONE-PAGE MEMO
4
ON THE LETTERHEAD OF THE FLINTKOTE
COMPANY, DATED MAY 4, 1976, TO
5
MR. J. C. HARKNESS, MR. W. HARVEY
AND MR. R. RABATSKY, FROM A. R.
6
HOOKER, JR., WITH ATTACHMENTS, THE
FIRST PAGE BEING ENTITLED "COMMENTS
7
OF JOHNS-MANVILLE CORPORATION WITH
RESPECT TO NOTICE OF PROPOSED
8
RULEMAKING OCCUPATIONAL EXPOSURE
TO ASBESTOS," CONSISTING OF SEVEN PAGES.
9
10
PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 38
289
A PHOTOCOPY OF A ONE-PAGE MEMO
11
DATED AUGUST 6, 1976, TO MR. W. H.
MORTONSON, MR. E. A. OPILA,
12
MR. W. HARVEY AND MR. R. RABATSKY,
FROM A. R. HOOKER, JR.
13
14
PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 39
290
A PHOTOCOPY OF A TWO-PAGE MEMO DATED
15
OCTOBER 8, 1976, AND A PHOTOCOPY OF A
DOCUMENT ENTITLED "LABELS AND ADVERTISE
16
MENTS THAT LEAD TO LIABILITY,"
CONSISTING OF EIGHT PAGES.
17
18
PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 40
291
A PHOTOCOPY OF A ONE-PAGE MEMO DATED
19
NOVEMBER 28, 1977, FROM W. T. HOYT.
20
PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 41
291
A PHOTOCOPY OF A ONE-PAGE MEMO DATED
21
JUNE 30, 1978, TO MR. J. C. HARKNESS
AND MR. J. C. MURPHY, FROM A. R.
22
HOOKER, JR.
23
PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 42
292
A PHOTOCOPY OF A ONE-PAGE MEMO ON
24
THE LETTERHEAD OF THE FLINTKOTE COMPANY,
DATED OCTOBER 23, 1979, TO MESSRS.
25
J. C. HARKNESS AND J. C. MURPHY,
FROM A. R. NOOKER, JR.; A PHOTO
26
COPY OF A DOCUMENT ENTITLED "GAF
CORPORATION, COMMENTS RELATING
27
TO THE DEPARTMENT OF LABOR'S
PROPOSED ASBESTOS REGULATIONS TO BE
28
PRESENTED AT THE PUBLIC HEARINGS
FvAM
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHANO REPORTERS
CO
XX
1
EXHIBITS
2 PAGE
3
TO BE HELD ON MARCH 14, 1972, CONSISTING
OF THIRTEEN PAGES; A PHOTOCOPY OF A
4
ONE-PAGE HANDWRITTEN DOCUMENT WITH
"REMOVED DOCUMENT" AT THE TOP; A
5
PHOTOCOPY OF A ONE-PAGE HANDWRITTEN
DOCUMENT WITH "REMOVED DOCUMENT" AT
6
THE TOP; AND A PHOTOCOPY OF A ONE-PAGE
DOCUMENT WITH "REMOVED DOCUMENT" AT
7
THE TOP.
8
PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 43
294
A PHOTOCOPY OF A ONE-PAGE LETTER
9
ON THE LETTERHEAD OF JOHNS-MANVILLE
CORPORATION, DATED AUGUST 7, 1961,
10
ADDRESSED TO MR. KOCH, ORANGEBURG
PIPE DIVISION, FROM W. L. VANDERBEEK,
11
VICE PRESIDENT AND PRODUCTION MANAGER.
12
PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 44
295
A PHOTOCOPY OF A ONE-PAGE LETTER ON
13
THE LETTERHEAD OF CANADIAN JOHNS-
MANVILLE CO., LIMITED, DATED JUNE 4,
14
1968, TO "DEAR SIR," AND A PHOTOCOPY
OF A THREE-PAGE DOCUMENT ENTITLED
15
"Q.A.M.A.," DATED MAY 2, 1968.
16
PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 45
296
A PHOTOCOPY OF A ONE-PAGE LETTER ..
17
ON THE LETTERHEAD OF GAF CORPORATION,
DATED MARCH 9, 1972, ADDRESSED TO
18
MR. A. R. HOOKER, JR., AND A PHOTOCOPY
OF A SEVEN-PAGE DOCUMENT ENTITLED
19
"OCCUPATIONAL SAFETY & HEALTH ADMINIS-
j
TRATION PUBLIC HEARINGS ON PROPOSED
20
REGULATIONS CONCERNING ASBESTOS
DUST, WASHINGTON, D.C. - MARCH 14,
21
1972, STATEMENT OF JOSEPH G. HALL."
22
PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 46
A PHOTOCOPY OF A ONE-PAGE MEMO ON
23
THE LETTERHEAD OF RESILIENT FLOOR
COVERING INSTITUTE, DATED AUGUST 10,
24
1977, TO RFCI MEMBERS FROM ROBERT D.
MAURER, MANAGING DIRECTOR, AND A
25
PHOTOCOPY OF FIVE PAGES, THE FIRST
PAGE BEING ENTITLED "NIOSH LISTS
26
TRADE NAME PRODUCTS CONTAINING
CARCINOGENS REGULATED BY OSHA."
27
28
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PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
2
1
BE IT REMEMBERED THAT, pursuant to Notice of Taking
2
Deposition, and on Thursday, April 12, 1984, commencing at
3
the hour of 9:20 o'clock a.m. of the said day, and continuing
4
on Friday, April 13, 1984, commencing at the hour of 8:50
5
o'clock a.m. of the said day, at the law offices of STERNS,
6
SMITH & WALKER, 280 Utah Street, San Francisco, California,
7
before me, DEBORAH WONG BROOKS, a Notciry Public in and for
8
the County of Alameda, State of California, personally
9
appeared ARTHUR R. HOOKER, a witness in the above-entitled
10
courts and causes, produced on behalf of the plaintiffs
11
therein, who, being by me first duly sworn, was then and
12
there examined and interrogated by Attorney CHRISTOPHER E.
13
GRELL, representing the law firm of STERNS, SMITH & WALKER,
14
280 Utah Street, San Francisco, California, counsel for the
15
plaintiffs therein.
16
17
APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL
18
19
FOR PLAINTIFFS IN RE: STERNS, BROWN & FINNEY
CONSOLIDATED FOR DISCOVERY RELATED SHIPYARD
20
AND APPLICATOR ASBESTOS CASES:
21
STERNS, SMITH & WALKER
BY: CHRISTOPHER E. GRELL, ESQ.
22
280 Utah Street
San Francisco, California 94103
23
24
FOR PLAINTIFFS, DOROTHY ST. JACQUE, ETC., ET AL.;
AND ALL RELATED CASES:
25 SIMKE, CHODOS, SILBERFELD & SOLL, INC.
26
BY: ROMAN M. SILBERFELD, ESQ.
6300 Wilshire Boulevard
27
Suite 9000
Los Angeles, California 90048
28
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTlf IEO SHOBTHANO r e p o r t e r s
3
1
FOR PLAINTIFFS, DOROTHY ST. JACQUE, ETC., ET AL.; AND
ALL RELATED CASES:
2
ROSE, KLEIN & MARIAS
3
BY: DAVID A. ROSEN, ESQ.
888 West Sixth Street
4
Second Floor
Los Angeles, California 90017
3
6
7
FOR PLAINTIFFS, DOROTHY ST. JACQUE, ETC., ET AL.; AND
ALL RELATED CASES:
8
Mc Ca r t h y , Jo h n s o n & m i l l e r
9
BY: JAMES E. MILLER, ESQ.
22 - 2nd Street
10
San Francisco, California 94105
11
(Appearing on behalf of the law offices of
GRISHAM & CANNON, 120 East Ocean Boulevard,
12
Long Beach, California 90802.)
13
FOR DEFENDANT, THE FLINTKOTE COMPANY :
14
LaFOLLETTE, JOHNSON, SCHROETER & DeHAAS
BY: RUDOLF H. SCHROETER, ESQ.
15
THEODORE A. CHUN, ESQ.
320 North Vermont Avenue
16
Los Angeles, California 90004
17
LaFOLLETTE, JOHNSON, SCHROETER & DeHAAS
BY: DESTIE OVERPECK, ESQ.
18
THOMAS R. PORT, ESQ.
100 Van Ness Avenue
19
Nineteenth Floor
San Francisco, California 94102
20
21
THOMPSON, HINE & FLORY
BY: BARBARA J. ARISON, ESQ.
22
National City Bank Building
Cleveland, Ohio 44114
23
24
SHIELD & SMITH
BY: J. LAWRENCE JUDY, ESQ.
25
1200 Wilshire Boulevard
Suite 400
26
Los Angeles, California 90017
27
28
U*> "
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED Sh ORTHANO REPORTERS
4
1
FOR DEFENDANT, ARMSTRONG WORLD INDUSTRIES, INC.:
2
GUDMUNDSON, SIGGINS & STONE
BY: DAVID ISAAC OGREN, ESQ.
3
Russ Building
235 Montgomery Street
4
San Francisco, California 94104
5
FOR DEFENDANT, U.S. GYPSUM:
6
. LAW OFFICES OF
JOHN J. MURRAY
7
BY: VICTOR Y. WOO, ESQ.
JOHN J. MURRAY, ESQ.
8
First Interstate Bank Building
702 Marshall
9
Suite 250
Redwood City, California 94063
10
11
FOR DEFENDANT, RAYMARK INDUSTRIES, INC..:
12
FISHER & HURST
BY: THOMAS A. TRAPANI, ESQ.
13
RAOUL A. RENAUD, ESQ.
Four Embarcadero Center
14
San Francisco, California 94111
15
FOR DEFENDANT, NORTH AMERICAN ASBESTOS CORPORATION:
16
ERICKSEN, ARBUTHNOT, MCCARTHY,
KEARNEY & WALSH, INC.
17
BY: TOM TAGLIARINI, ESQ.
535 Mira Vista Avenue
18
Oakland, California 94610
19
20
FOR DEFENDANT, OWENS-CORNING FIBREGLAS CORPORATION:
21
POPELKA, ALLARD, McCOWAN & JONES
BY: LYNN RENNERT, ESQ.
22
RICHARD B. HECHLER, ESQ.
Lloyds Bank Building
23
One Almaden Boulevard
Eighth Floor
24
San Jose, California 95113
25 26
27
28
FyAH G1?
fleT 000
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHANO REPORTERS
co<>:
o <o
C OcnC Oc.n
5
1
FOR DEFENDANT, AC&S, INC.:
2
VAN DE POEL, STRICKLAND AND HAAPALA
BY: EDWARD M. PRICE, ESQ.
3
2030 Franklin Street
Fifth Floor
4
Oakland, California 94612
5
FOR DEFENDANT, LAKE ASBESTOS OF QUEBEC, LTD.:
6
PETTIT & MARTIN
BY: D. WAYNE JEFFRIES, ESQ.
7
101 California Street
Thirty-Fifth Floor
8
San Francisco, California 94111
9
FOR DEFENDANT, H. K. PORTER:
10
LAW OFFICES OF WILLIAM J. DUKE
BY: THOMAS JANISCH, ESQ.
11
CHARLENE P. ROSACK, ESQ.
433 California Street
12
Suite 330
San Franciso, California 94104
13
14
FOR DEFENDANT, KEENE CORPORATION:
15
MULLALLY & CEDERBORG, INC.
BY: LAURIE K. ANGER, ESQ.
16
1405 Central Building
Oakland, California 94612
17
18
FOR DEFENDANT, GAF CORPORATION:
19
McCUTCHEN, DOYLE, BROWN & ENERSEN
BY: J. BRADLEY O'CONNELL, ESQ..
20
Three Embarcadero Center
San Francisco, California 94111
21
22
FOR DEFENDANT, PITTSBURGH CORNING CORPORATION:
23
HASSARD, BONNINGTON, ROGERS & HUBER
BY: ROBERT M. HAMBLETT, ESQ.
24
SARA A. KELLER, ESQ.
3500 Wells Fargo Building
25
44 Montgomery Street
San Francisco, California 94104
26
27
28
CiiiM 61?
fld GO
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
c e r tifie d sh o r th an d reporters
co o;
6
1
FOR DEFENDANT, WESTERN MacARTHUR:
2
HARDIN, COOK, LOPER, ENGEL & BERGEZ
BY: ROBERT DOUGLAS EASSA, ESQ.
3
DANIEL K. OHL, ESQ.
2300 Ordway Building
4
One Kaiser Plaza
Oakland, California 94612
5
6
FOR DEFENDANT, NICOLET, INC.:
7
McKAY AND BYRNE
BY: BOBBIE J. KOSZDIN, ESQ.
8
3250 Wilshire Boulevard, Suite 603
Los Angeles, California 90010
9
10
FOR DEFENDANT, FIBREBOARD CORPORATION:
11
CHASE, ROTCHFORD, DRUKKER & BOGUST
BY: RICHARD S. KEMALYAN, ESQ.
12
700 South Flower Street
Fifth Floor
13
Los Angeles, California 90017
14
15
FOR DEFENDANT, EAGLE PICHER INDUSTRIES, INC.:
16
WININGHAM, ROBERTS, FAMA,
THOMPSON AND COOPER
17
BY: JOHN R. WALLACE, ESQ.
RONALD MILLER, ESQ.
18
425 California Street
Fourth Floor
19
San Francisco, California 94104
20
21
The following proceedings were thereupon had, and
22
the following proceedings were thereupon had, to-wit:
23
24
-- oOo--
25
26
27
Cyftri 60iV'
28
ci_D 0000
CO t o O CO
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SMORTHANO REPORTERS
7
]
INDEX
2
3
PAGE
4
5
EXAMINATION BY MR. GRELL
9
6
EXAMINATION BY MR. SILBERFELD
56
7
EXAMINATION BY MR. JAMES MILLER
136
8
EXAMINATION BY MR. ROSEN
154
9
FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR. SILBERFELD
173
10
FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR. GRELL
196
11
FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR. ROSEN
216
12
EXAMINATION BY MR. JEFFRIES
223
13
EXAMINATION BY MR. MURRAY
237
14
FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR. SILBERFELD
246
|
I
15
FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR. GRELL
299
16
EXAMINATION BY MR. O'CONNELL
17
303 J
18
-- oOo--
19
20
THURSDAY, APRIL 12, 1984
21
FRIDAY, APRIL 13, 1984
8 - 221 222 - 305
22
23
-- oOo--
24
25
26
27
28
0Q3G 3 S
L.0
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHANO REPORTERS
8
1
(The following attorneys were present for the
2
deposition on Thursday, April 12, 1984:
3
CHRISTOPHER E. GRELL, ESQ.
4
ROMAN. M. SILBERFELD, ESQ.
5
DAVID A. ROSEN, ESQ.
6
JAMES E. MILLER, ESQ.
7
RUDOLF H. SCHROETER, ESQ.
8
THEODORE A. CHUN, ESQ.
9
DESTIE OVERPECK, ESQ.
10
THOMAS R. PORT, ESQ.
11
BARBARA J. ARISON, ESQ.
12
J. LAWRENCE JUDY, ESQ.
13
DAVID ISAAC OGREN, ESQ.
14
VICTOR Y. WOO, ESQ.
15
THOMAS A. TRAPANI, ESQ.
16
TOM TAGLIARINI, ESQ.
17
LYNN RENNERT, ESQ.
18
EDWARD M. PRICE, ESQ.
19
D. WAYNE JEFFRIES, ESQ.
20
THOMAS JANISCH, ESQ.
21
CHARLENE P. ROSACK, ESQ.
22
LAURIE K. ANGER, ESQ.
23
J. BRADLEY O'CONNELL, ESQ.
24
ROBERT M. HAMBLETT, ESQ.
25
SARA A. KELLER, ESQ.
26
ROBERT DOUGLAS EASSA, ESQ.
27
BOBBIE J. KOSZDIN, ESQ.
28
RICHARD A. KEMALYAN, ESQ.
Oiy FLO 0000
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
~
CERTIFIEO SHORTHANO r e p o r t e r s
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1
JOHN R. WALLACE, ESQ.;
2
RONALD MILLER, ESQ.; AND
i
3
DANIEL K. OHL.)
4
-- oOo--
5
I
6
7
ARTHUR R. HOOKER
;
--
8
being first duly sworn, testified as follows:
j
i
9
i
10
EXAMINATION BY MR. GRELL
11
MR. GRELL:
Q. Good morning, Mr. Hooker. j
12
My name is Christopher Grell, and I represent the plaintiffs j
13
represented in the Sterns, Brown & Finney consolidated San
14
Francisco cases in both San Francisco and Alameda. I'm
15
goino to be askina vou a few questions today, as I imagine j
I
16
the other attorneys present will be doing, as well.
|
17
To start off, would you please state your full name j
18
and business address, home address for the record, please?
19
A.
Arthur Riverious, R-i-v-e-r-i-o-u-s, Hooker, Jr.
!
i
20
My business address is 580 Decker Drive, Irving, Texas,
21
zip 75062. My home address is 7051 Orchid -- as in flower --
22
Lane, Dallas, Texas, 75230.
23
Q.
Could you also give us your business phone number,
24
please?
25 A. Yes. 214-659-9800. !j
26
Q.
And your home phone, please?
j
I
27
A.
214-692-6428.
28
q.
Mr. Hooker, before we begin, I'd like to know, have
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHANO REPORTERS
f^am 0193355 FLD 00003040
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1 you had a chance to talk to your attorney about what a
2
deposition is?
j 3
A-
Yes, I have.
4
Q.
Have you ever had a deposition taken before?
J
5
A.
No.
Ii
i
6
Q.
You understand that I'll be asking you questions,
:
7
and the court reporter will be taking everything down. Anc I
8
she has to take down oral statements, so she can't take
9
down nods of the head.
10
A.
Yes, sir.
11
Q.
If I ask you a question that you don't understand,
12
please tell me and I'll try to rephrase it so that it's
13
clear.
14
A.
Will do.
15
Q.
Also, I imagine your counsel will be making a number j
16
of objections, maybe, during the course of the deposition.
17
MR. SCHROETER:
Depends on you.
18
MR. GRELL:
Depends on me. Right.
19
Q.
I assume that unless you're instructed not to answer, 1
20
that he's just making an objection to preserve the record
21
and that you can still answer the question.
22
A.
I will make every effort to do so.
23 Q.
Before we begin, do you have any questions that you
24
might like to ask?
25
A.
No, sir.
26
Q.
Before thedeposition started today, your counsel
27
said that you did not bring any documents pursuant to the
28
deposition notice that was served on Flintkote; is that
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
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F y mm
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1
correct?
2
A.
To this meeting, no.
3
Q.
It's also my understanding that all the documents
4
have already been produced pursuant to another document
5
request that was served on Flintkote.
6
A.
I can't answer that question. I am not familiar
7
with all the documents.
8
Q.
Did you make any effort prior to coming to today's
9
deposition to look for documents that were requested in
10
the deposition notice that were served on you?
11
A.
Personally, I did not do it. My legal counsel has
12
done some work on that.
13
MR. SCHROETER:
Counsel, as you can appreciate,
14
such matters typically are counsel's problem, and I have
15
advised Mr. Hooker, and I also mentioned to you before this
16
deposition began, that each category defined in your
17
duces tecum notice for this deposition was likewise requested
18
in a prior production request in which, prior to that
19
request, even more was requested and was requested for
20
this deposition, and that all of that has been dealt with
21
previously. And I suspect that it is upstairs in this
22
building in your offices somewhere. So we did not bring
23
anything, for that reason, not having 15 briefcases.
24
MR. GRELL:
I understand that, Counsel.
25
My point in this line of questioning is to find out
j
26
whether Mr. Hooker personally reviewed any of his files
|
27
to see if there were any additional documents that may
28
have escaped your search for documents responsive to our
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHANO REPORTERS
6Q10o*5-"ic tLD m i S H i
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1
request.
2
THE WITNESS:
If I did, it was by request
3
of counsel, and I wouldn't have known how to identify them
4
with this case involved.
5
MR. GRELL:
Q. Have you ever been asked
6
by your attorney to review your files to see if you had
7
any documents that may be responsive to the document requests
8
that have been served on Flintkote?
9
A.
I would have to ask counsel to answer that. They've
I
10
asked me to review my files from time to time, and I have
j
11
been responsible for the review of files. I'm not exactly j
l
12
certain what your question is.
13
Q.
My question is: Have you produced the documents
14
from your files at the request of your attorneys?
15
MR. SCHROETER:
When you say "your files,"
16
Counsel, you mean --
!
17
MR. GRELL:
Personal files.
18
MR. SCHROETER:
-- Art Hooker's personal files
19
that he keeps within so many feet of his desk, or his files i
20
that he may have had over the years as he had different jobs?
21
MR. GRELL:
His personal files for the
22
time being related to the work at Flintkote.
23
THE WITNESS:
My asbestos files are set
24
aside in my office for review by anybody, and on occasion,
25
in responding to inquiries from counsel about specific
26
cases or in reviewing interrogatories or requests for
` i
27
admissions, I review my files from time to time.
28
m r . GRELL:
Q. And are documents in those
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
FvAH 60193335 FLD 0Uuu30*4o
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1
files that you review pulled out, copied and produced
2
pursuant to those requests by your counsel?
3
A.
I don't personally pull them.
4
Q.
Do you know if the documents in your files have
5
been copied?
6
A.
I'm not aware of any that are in my files that have
7
been copied.
8
Q.
Before coming to today's deposition, did you review
9
any documents to help refresh your recollection?
10
A.
Yes.
11
Q.
What documents did you review?
12
A.
Will you describe them, please, Counsel?
i
13
MR. SCHROETER:
I think that would be fair.
:
14
We went generally -- not necessarily to review or
J
j
15
refresh recollection -- but just to acquaint Mr. Hooker
i
16
with what has gone on here, and this is directly responsive j
17
to your question, and I can answer it. He cannot.
j
18
We've gone together over records that your office
I
19
chose from among those that have previously been produced
j
i
20
for the Cartwright office. We call that our Sterns set
21
as opposed to our Cartwright set. And the Sterns set is
22
what we've looked at together, and Mr.. Hooker wouldn't
23
know how to describe it, as I just now did.
24
MR. GRELL:
Q. But do you recall what
25
documents from the Sterns set you reviewed to help refresh
26
your recollection?
27
A.
There must have been hundreds of them. I cannot
t O Cjr
28
identify them in total.
_______________________________________________________________ F vAM 6S i *
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
14
1
Q.
I appreciate that.
2
Did you review any documents from the Kazan-Kilbourne
3
set or any other set?
4
A.
Again, I'd have to defer to counsel. I don't
3
know where these documents I've reviewed specifically came
6
from.
7
MR. SCHROETER:
Again, Counsel, the Sterns
8
set, which I just identified, that we together, he and I,
9
looked at, somebody else's set may include in part some of
10
the set that you have chosen. I am not prepared to say
11
that, either, just now.
12
MR. GRELL:
Well, I think I'm entitled
13
to know what documents the witness has reviewed to help
14
refresh his recollection. To that extent, if the documents
15
haven't been produced for us but they have been produced
16
for somebody else, then I think I'm entitled to know what
17
those documents are.
18
MR. SCHROETER:
I 'll say, again, that what
19
he has reviewed with me -- because I was the one that was
20
with him when he did it -- were the set that you have,
21
Counsel --
22
MR. GRELL:
I understand that.
23
MR. SCHROETER:
-- as I've previously described
24
it. And it was an overview, and, of course, your set may
25
include things that were elsewhere produced. But that's
26
not under debate now. Your entire set is the one that we
27
physically had together to look at.
28
MR. GRELL:
And no other set of additional
in m
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHANO REPORTERS
f,,am < 0 1 9 3 3 3 FLD 0000304
15
1
documents were reviewed?
2
MR. SCHROETER:
And no other set, right.
3
MR. ROSEN:
Excuse me for a second. Just
4
so it's clear on the record, Counsel is saying that you
5
reviewed each and every document which was produced pursuant
6
to the S t e m s notice; is that correct?
7
MR. SCHROETER:
I did not say that. I said
8
that we did an overview review of the Sterns set of
9
documents that the Sterns office chose to copy from among
10
all of those documents which we had produced for the
11
Cartwright office.
12
I 'll ask counsel from the Sterns office, is that a
13
clear delineation of the set of documents?
14
MR. GRELL:
Yes.
15
MR. SCHROETER:
In fact, to go even further,
16
our office, with the kind permission of the Sterns office,
17
copied their set, so that we would know what they had. And
18
we --
19
In fact, Mr. Hooker and I looked at that set,
20
which the Sterns office was kind enough to let us copy, so
21
that we now have a copy of what they have. The Sterns
22
office, in turn, has a subset of what the Cartwright office
23
has. The large subset looks to me like 80 percent of
24
what Cartwright has. And the only documents that
25
Mr. Hooker in my presence reviewed with me were excerpts
26
from that now thoroughly well-defined Sterns set.
27
MR. GRELL:
Q. Did you review any
28
documents to h e l p r e f r e s h your recollection that were
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHQRTh a n o REPORTERS
Fvam 0193335
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1
withheld from the Sterns production, that you're aware of?
2
MR. SCHROETER:
Assuming that there was any
3
withholding.
4
MR. GRELL:
Well, there was some with
5
holding, Counsel.
6
MR. SCHROETER:
And again, Counsel, I point
7
out to you that the Sterns set is one that you chose from
8
the Cartwright set, not one that was subject to withholding.
9
MR. GRELL:
I can show you pieces of paper
10
where you have withheld documents from our document request.
11
Q.
And my question to the witness is: Did you review
12
any documents to help refresh your recollection that were
13
withheld from production based on a claim of privilege?
14
A.
Not to my knowledge.
15
MR. SCHROETER:
I'll corroborate that, since
16
I was there.
17
MR. GRELL:
Q. Were you read from any
18
documents that were withheld from production based on the
19
claim of privilege that helped refresh your recollection?
20
A.
Not to my knowledge.
21
Q.
Mr. Hooker, will you please state your present
22
employer and position?
23
A.
My position is manager of purchasing, Genstar,
24
G-e-n-s-t-a-r, Building Materials Company.
25
Q.
Does Genstar own Flintkote?
26
A.
Genstar -- Flintkote is a wholly owned subsidiary
27
of Genstar, Incorporated.
28
Q.
Could you define your responsibilities as
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHANO REPORTERS
FnvAoM Q000304,
17
i
manager-purchaser of Genstar?
2
A.
Negotiating contracts, administering purchasing
3
policy for our manufacturing plants, responsible for all
4
of our forms, management. I establish, in some cases,
5
purchasing policy. In other cases, I make recommendations
6
for purchasing policy.
7
Q.
Anything else? Any other areas of responsibility
8
that you can think of?
9
A.
One of my major responsibilities has to do with
1
I
10
handling the re -- or being responsible for, call it if you !
I
11
will, editing and signing the requests for admissions,
12
responses to interrogatories.
13
MR. SILBERFELD:
Eighty percent?
14
THE WITNESS:
15
spent doing that.
A good portion of mv time is
! j
16
MR. GRELL:
Q. How long have you been
|
17
manager-purchaser for Genstar?
18
A.
Genstar acquired Flintkote Company in 1980 -- it
19
was either December of '80 or January of '81. And at that j
20
time, I became a Genstar employee.
21
Q.
Before working for Genstar, where were you employed?
22
A.
I've been -- I was originally employed bythe
23
Flintkote Company in September of 1946,,
24
Q.
Starting in 1946, what was the first position you
25
held with Flintkote?
26
A.
Sales trainee.
27
Q.
And how long were you a sales trainee?
28
A.
Approximately one year.
TO CO
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SMORTh ANO r e p o r te r s
FvAH )iy FLD 00 GO
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1
Q.
And after that, you went to sales, I presume?
2
A.
I was assistant sales manager for the industrial
3
products department at the Vernon, California, plant.
4
Q.
What was your responsibility as assistant manager
5
for the sales department?
6
A.
Office administration and responsible for sales to
7
selected segments of our customers by industry.
8
Q.
What selected segments were you responsible for?
9
A.
Automotive, railroads, some sales responsiblity at
10
the local and federal government level.
11
Q.
When you say some responsibility at the federal
12
government level, what do you mean by that?
13
A.
I've called on Air Force bases, the purchasing
14
departments. And Air Force bases is an example.
15
Q.
What about federal shipyards?
16
A.
I don't recall of ever calling on -- I'm not certain.
17
I can't remember whether I did or did not call. I have
18
some responsibility in the placement of bids for our
19
finished products for sale to military establishments,
20
and included in those military establishments would be
21
the naval shipyards. I don't recall of ever calling on a
22
naval shipyard specifically.
23
Q.
Would you have any records that would show what
24
sales meetings you might have had or what contacts you might
25
have had with the various federal agencies that you were
26
dealing with back then?
27
A.
No, sir.
lift
28
Q.
Did you ever have contact with private shipyards?
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHANO REPORTERS
19
1
A.
I don't recall of calling on a private -- any
2
shipyard, physically calling on one.
3
Q.
Would not?
4
A.
I did work -- From the administrative point of view,
5
in the office as assistant sales manager, I was bidding on
6
the sale of the product to various establishments, some of
7
which could have been shipyards. I don't specifically
8
remember. You're asking me to recall 35 years ago. I just
9
don't remember specifically.
10
MR. SCHROETER:
That answers the question
11
more than enough.
12
MR. GRELL:
Q. How long were you assistant
13
manager?
14
A.
It was either 1949 or '50, I was reassigned.
15
Q.
Going back to that period when you were assistant
16
manager involved in industrial product sales, what products
17
were you involved with in that particular job?
18
A.
Would have been defined -- just defined in our
19
company as industrial products.
20
Q.
Let's narrow it down a little bit. What industrial,
21
if any, asbestos products were you involved in during that
22
period when you were assistant manager in 1947?
23
A.
Roof coatings, adhesives, weatherproof and moisture-
24
proof protection coatings, highway joint ceiling compounds,
25
commercial decorative paint, asphalting paint compounds,
26
and general coatings.
27
Q.
Were you involved with asbestos floor tile?
28
A.
Not a t th a t tim e.
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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1
Q.
So you worked as assistant sales manager from around
2
'47 to '49; is that correct?
3
A.
Yes.
4
Q.
In 1949, I assume you were promoted.
5
Let me rephrase the question.
6
What was your next position after you worked as
7
assistant sales manager?
8
A.
I was administrative assistant to the general
9
manager of the Pioneer Division of the Flintkote Company.
10
Q.
Could you describe what responsibilities you had
11
in that particular position?
12
A.
Approximately three years as the supervisor for
13
priority and price controls related to the Korean War for
14
the Pioneer Division of the Flintkote Company.
15
Q.
Did your responsibilities as administratorchange
16
completely from your responsibilities as assistant manager,
17
or did you carry on any of the same jobs that you were
18
doing as assistant manager?
19
A.
It changed completely.
20
Q.
So as administrator,were youstillinvolved in the
21
administration and the bidding process of sales of industrial
22
products?
23
A.
No, sir.
24
Q.
You said you did that for threeyears. Sothat
25
would be from about 1949 to '52, or thereabouts?
26
A.
Yes, sir.
27
Q.
I know it goes back a long time, so I'm not trying
28
to pin you down on the exact dates.
CgiM r LD ooo o3051
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHANO REPORTERS
21
1
A.
The answer to the question is: When the Korean War
2
was over, priority price controls were not required. '
3
MR. SCHROETER:
So he incorporates the end
j
4
of the war by reference.
I
5
MR. GRELL:
Whenever that was.
j
j
6
Q.
After that, what was your next position?
j
i
7
A.
I was assigned as assistant director of purchasing
i
j
8
for the Pioneer Division of the Flintkote Company.
|
I
9
Q.
And, again, can you describe your job responsibilities ;
10
as assistant director of purchasing for the Flintkote
|
11
Pioneer Division?
!
12
A.
The overall administration, contract negotiation,
| I
13
lower level policy decisions on source of supply, and
j
14
administration of the purchasing office in Vernon and all
j
I
15
plants in the Pioneer Division.
!
16
Q.
Did you have any responsibility for sales of Flintkote jI
17 products? |I
18
A.
Only as it related to surplus and excess materials
j
i
19
from our plant.
|
20
Q.
What kind of surplus and excess materials would be
21
sold by Flintkote?
22
A.
Any raw material that became obsolete for change in
23
a formula, material that was defective for some reason and j
!
24
did not fit into the finished product category that might
j
I
25
have been of some value to some other company. Anything but ^
26
our finished products.
j
27
Q.
When you were assistant director of purchasing and _ j
28
you had some responsibility for sales, did you ever sell
1
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
FLO 00003052
22
1
asbestos fiber, or was it being used --
2
A.
As --
3
MR. SCHROETER:
4
He was not done.
Let him finish the question.
5
MR. GRELL:
Q. During that time period
6
when you were assistant director-purchaser, starting in
7
1952 to the end of the Korean War, were you ever involved
8
in the sale of asbestos that Flintkote decided it wasn't
9
going to use?
10
MR. SCHROETER:
Objection. Vague. Do you
11
mean the sale of asbestos fiber which the Flintkote Company
12
had maybe intended to use but somehow didn't use that and
13
wanted to get rid of it?
14
MR. GRELL:
15
THE WITNESS:
16
transaction.
Yes. I don't recall of any such
17
MR. GRELL:
Q. Would you have any records
18
that might reflect whether or not those sales occurred?
19
A.
No, sir.
20
Q.
Do you know if anyone else would have any records?
21
A.
I don't know where they would be.
22
Q.
How long did you work as assistant director of
23
purchasing?
24
A.
Until 1956.
25
Q.
I'd like to backtrack just a little bit and ask
26
you, you said that you worked for the Flintkote Pioneer
27
Division. Could you explain the corporate relationship
28
between Flintkote and the Pioneer Division, who their
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED Sh ORTHANO REPORTERS
FvftM 6VoojS FLD 00003053
23
1
parent corporation was, if any?
2
A.
The Flintkote Company was the parent corporation.
3
Q.
And that was from 1949 to '52?
4
A.
Yes.
5
Q.
Was that also the case from the time you started
6
with Flintkote, to your knowledge?
7
A.
The relationship of the division of the company?
8
Q.
Yes.
9
A.
Yes, sir.
10
Q.
Do you know how longFlintkote hasbeen in business?
11
A.
If I remember correctly, it was incorporated in the
12
State of Massachusetts in 1918, something -- in that time
13
span.
14
Q.
How long -- Ifyou've answered this,I apologize,
15
but I don't have this -- How long did you work as assistant
16
director of purchasing?
17
A.
Until 1956.
18
Q.
That's right.
19
What job did you have in 1956?
20
A.
Became director of purchasing.
21
Q.
Would you describe your responsibilities as director
22
of purchasing?
23
A.
Overall responsibility for administration of the
24
total purchasing function for the Pioneer Division of
25
The Flintkote Company at all plant levels -- all plant
26
locations.
27
Q.
Any other responsibilities, other thanpurchasing
28
responsibilities?
FvAtl 6 0 i ? 3 3 2 5
FLD 00003054
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
24
1
A.
No, sir.
2
Q.
Were you involved in any sales when you were the
3
director of purchasing?
4
A.
The only sales I would have been involved in would
5
be surplus or disposable materials.
6
Q.
Do you recall, when you worked as director of
7
purchasing, selling any fiber that Flintkote had purchased
8
and were not going to use?
9
A.
Not specifically. But I did sell surplus materials.
10
Q.
But you have no knowledge of selling asbestos fibers; j
11
is that correct?
12
A.
I don't have a specific recollection.
13
Q.
Would you know of any records you might have that
j
i
14
would help refresh your recollection?
j
15
A.
I know of none retained at this time.
j
i
16
Q.
Would you know if the corporation has any records
j
17
concerning sales during that time?
j
18
A.
I don't personally know of any records that have
19
been maintained.
j
20
Q.
You said earlier that part of your job today is to
!
21
respond to requests for admissions and requests for
22
production of documents. You also, I assume, signed a lot
23
of verifications.
24
A.
Uh-huh.
25
Q.
Have you directed people or have you yourself gone
j
26
through Flintkote's records to see if there are any records j
27
concerning the sales of asbestos products, starting back
28
to the time when Flintkote first got i n v o l v e d in t h e
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED) s h o h t m a n o REPORTERS
0193335 00003055
25
1
business?
2
MR. SCHROETER:
Objection. Compound. Do you
3
mean whether he directed people or whether he did it himself?
4
MR. GRELL:
Let's take it one step at a
5
time.
6
Q.
Have you gone back and looked through Flintkote's
7
records to see if they have any documents that would show
8
what kind of asbestos sales occurred?
9
A.
I have not done it personally.
10
Q.
Have you directed other people to do that kind of a
11
search in response to various document requests that have
12
been served on Flintkote in the course of this litigation?
13
MR. SCHROETER:
Excuse me. Don't answer that.
14
Are you assuming in your question that, in fact, a
15
request has been made by anyone to produce information on
16
asbestos or surplus asbestos sold by The Flintkote Company
17
to others?
18
MR. GRELL:
I believe our request asks
19
you for sales information concerning asbestos.
20
MR. SCHROETER:
Surplus asbestos fiber?
21
MR. GRELL:
Asbestos fiber, surplus,
22
surplus if it's asbestos fiber. Doesn't seem much of a
23
difference.
24
THE WITNESS:
Would you repeat the question?
25
MR. GRELL:
Q. You said that you have
26
not personally gone back in Flintkote's records to see
27
if there were any documents that would reflect sales of
28
a s b e s t o s s i n c e the time you started working fo the company.
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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FvAM 0193335 FLD 00003056
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1
Now I'm asking you, have you directed anybody to do
2
such a search?
3
A.
No.
4
Q.
Do you know if your lawyers have directed somebody
5
to do such a search?
6
MR. SCHROETER:
Yes or no. Either you know or
7
you don't.
8
THE WITNESS:
Yes, it has been done.
9
MR. GRELL:
10
that search?
Q. Do you know who has done
11
A.
I can only define it as legal counsel.
12
Q.
Do you know the names of anybody that has gone
13
through your files to try to pull out information?
14
A.
I don't know of anybody that's gone through my files,
15
other than myself.
16
Q.
Do you know the names of anybody that's gone through
17
other people at Flintkote who may have documents responsive
18
to the request?
19
A.
Yes.
20
Q.
Who are those people?
21
A.
Seth Smith is one gentleman. I believe that Tony
22
McCloud.
23
Q.
Excuse me. Who is Seth Smith? Is he employed by --
24
A.
He was in our legal department, corporate legal
25
department.
26
Q.
Do you know whereSeth Smith is today?
27
A.
He's with a law firm. I can't name it.
28
Q.
Do y o u know w h e r e t h e la w f i r m i s l o c a t e d ?
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
c e r tifie d s h o r th a n d reporters
CniM 01?3335 Ur, Ua Ua Ua a Ua Je '
27
1
A.
New York City.
2
0-
You started to mention somebody else who's done '
3
this.
4
A.
Tony McCloud.
5
Q.
Who is Tony McCloud?
6
A.
He was chief counsel and Seth Smith's boss.
7
Q.
Do you know where Mr. McCloud is today?
8
A.
I do not.
9
Q.
Does Flintkote keep personnel records on former
10
employees, to your knowledge?
11
A.
There are records kept, yes.
12
Q.
Do you know who would be responsible for maintaining
13
the personnel files for Flintkote?
14
A.
The -- I'm trying to think of his title -- corporate
15
personnel director.
16
Q.
Do you know that person's name?
17
A.
Clifford
Carr.
18
Q.
Is it C-a-r?
19
A.
C-a-r-r.
20
Q.
Do you know anybody else who has done a search of
21
Flintkote's documents?
22
A.
Legal counsel outside of the company.
23
Q.
is it fair to say you're not aware of anybody inside
24
the company that has been asked to do a search of the
25
files to find out if they have any documents responsive
26
to our request for production of documents?
27
A.
I can't name them. I know it's been done, but --
28
Q.
How longwere you director of purchasing for the
CO CO in
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIEO SHORTHAND REPORTERS
fvam
FLO
000030
28
1
Flintkote Pioneer Division?
2
A.
Six years. Until 1962.
3
Q.
In 1962, what job did you take over?
4
A.
I was transferred to the corporate office in New
5
York City as manager of trade relations.
6
Q.
Could you define your responsibilities as manager
7
of trade relations?
8
A.
In capsule form, best described as corporate
9
commercial relationship.
10
Q.
Could you define that a little bit more specifically?
11
MR. JUDY:
How about generally?
12
THE WITNESS:
The Flintkote Company did
I
13
business with literally thousands of companies in the
14
United States, and some of them were by virtue of either
15
the products we sold or they sold or we manufactured. They
16
were interrelated between all of the divisions of The
17
Flintkote Company. And it was my responsibility to maintain
18
appropriate and satisfactory corporate relationships with
19
these companies.
20
MR. GRELL:
Q. Are you familiar with the
21
defendants involved in the asbestos litigation?
22
MR. SCHROETER:
Objection. That's asking too
23
much. If you would name them, please, he'll tell you.
24
He knows Flintkote is a defendant, but he has no reason to
25
know everybody else.
26
MR. GRELL:
Q. As corporate officer,
27
manager of trade relations, did you have any responsibility
28
for keeping the relationship b e t w e e n F l i n t k o t e a n d , say,
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
F yAM 6 0 i ? 3 o o J FLO 00003059
29
1
Johns-Manville?
2
A.
Yes, sir.
3
Q.
What kind of responsibilities would you get involved
4
in with dealing with Johns-Manville?
5
A.
During the course of my assignment as manager of
6
trade relations, we had a license from Johns-Manville to
7
manufacture asbestos cement pipe, in accordance with their
8
patented process. And there was know-how involved in their
9
supplying us with information in the operation of that plant.
10
There was just an ongoing relationship with Johns-Manville
11
at the corporate level, which -- some of which I got
12
involved in.
13
Q.
Do you remember the names of people that worked for
14
Johns-Manville that you dealt with?
15
A.
One of the men that I spent most of my time with,
16
who was my counterpart in Johns-Manville, his name was
17
Dick Amburg.
18
Q.
Do you know if Mr. Amburg is still employed with
19
Johns-Manville?
20
A.
He has been retired for some years.
21
Q.
Do you know where Mr. Amburg lives?
22
A.
In a Denver suburb.
23
Q.
Anybody else at Johns-Manville that you recall
24
dealing with?
25
A.
I'm trying to remember Mr. Amburg's predecessor.
26
I cannot recall his predecessor. I 'm trying to answer
27
this question in terms of the time span we're talking about.
28
Q.
It's 1962.
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CEBTIFIEO SHOBTHAn O BEPORTEBS
30
1
Yes, '62, and that assignment until 1967, for five
2
years.
3
Q.
Do you know who your predecessor was before you
4
assumed responsibility for the corporate office of manager
5
of trade relations?
6
A.
There was none.
7
Q.
So this was a newly created position?
8
A.
Yes, sir.
9
Q.
Do you know why this position was created?
10
A.
I was not involved in thatdecision.
11
Q.
So other than Mr.Amburg, is it fair to say you
12
cannot remember any of the other people at Johns-Manville
13
that you worked with during this time period when you were
14
manager of corporate relations?
15
A.
I can name them by job description only. I can't
16
remember their names specifically.
17
Q.
Well, give the job description.
18
A.
One of the gentlemen was the sales manager for
19
Canadian Johns-Manville. Another gentleman was their
20
purchasing -- director of purchasing.
21
I can add something. I thought of one name. The
22
sales manager for Canadian Johns-Manville was Noel Hendry.
23
Q.
Do you know where Mr. Henry (sic) lives?
24
A.
Hendry, H-e-n-d-r-y, Hendry.
25
I do not know where he is now.
26
Q.
Anybody else that might come to mind?
27
A.
No.
28
Q.
Any other job descriptions, the types of people
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
FuAM 0 j 93335 FLD 0000306]
CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
31
1
that you recall working with?
2
A.
Not in that time span, '62 to '67.
3
Q.
Do you recall having any business relationships with
4
Owens-Corning Fibreglas?
5
A.
Yes.
6
Q.
And what was the relationship that you had with them?
7
A.
As manager of trade relations, they were a customer
8
of more than -- Wait a minute. That's not true. Yes, they
9
were. They were a customer of more than one division in
10
the company, so I would coordinate sales relationships with
11
them.
12
And on the other side of the coin, they were a
13
supplier to several other -- several of our divisions, and
14
my counterpart in OCF as my prime contact.
15 Q.
Who was that counterpart?
16
A.
Dick Ringwald.
17
Q.
Do you know where Mr. Ringwald is presently?
18
A.
The last I heard, he was retired.in Florida.
19
Q.
Do you know where in Florida?
20
A.
I don't know.
21
Q.
You have no idea?
22
A.
I don't know.
23
Q.
Did you have any conversations with him in the past?
24
A.
Not since he retired.
25
Q.
Do you know when he retired?
26
A.
I'd sayten years ago.
27
Q.
Can you think of anybody else at OCF that you had
28
business dealings with during your job as corporate
rocn
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED s h o r t h a n d r e p o r t e r s
32
1
relations manager?
2
A.
Their purchasing agent.
3
Q.
4
A.
Do you know that person's name? I'm reaching for it, trying to remember.
I cannot
5
remember his name-.
6
Q.
Are there any other names of people that you can
7
recall?
8
A.
No, sir.
9
Q.
Did you have any relationships with H. K. Porter?
10
A.
I did not, personally.
11
Q.
So they were not one of the companies that you had
12
during your job as --
13
A.
I can't recall of ever having einy business
14
discussions with anybody in H. K. Porter.
15
Q.
What about Raymark?
16
A.
In that time span, no.
17
Q.
Was the first time that you had corporate or
18
business relationships with other companies when you
19
assumed the position as manager of trade relations?
20
A.
Restate that question.
21
Q.
When you were working as a sales manager, assistant
22
manager, did you have smiliar kinds of involvement with,
23
say, J-M or Owens Corning Fibreglas, as you described as
24
having when you were corporate manager?
25
A.
No.
26
Q.
Do you know if Flintkote had business dealings with
27
Johns-Manvilie prior to 1962?
28
A.
Yes.
"
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
flT io o o IJ J J
CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
33
1
Q.
Do you know what kind of business relationship
2
existed between Flintkote and J-M before 1962?
3
A.
We used their asbestos fiber, for instance, as an
4
item.
5
Q.
Do you know how long you used their asbestos fiber
6
before 1962?
7
A.
What?
8
Q.
Let me rephrase the question.
9
Do you know when you first started using J-M asbestos
10
fiber in Flintkote operations?
11
A.
I do not know when Flintkote first started using it.
12
Q.
When's the first time it came to your knowledge?
13
A.
When I became assistant manager -- assistant director
14
of purchasing for the Pioneer Division.
15
Q.
So that would have been about 1952?
16 A.
Yes, sir.
17 Q.
Same thing. Do you know if Flintkote had relation
18
ships with OCF, Owens-Corning Fibreglas, prior to 1962?
19 A.
I cannot recall the date. At siome point in time in
20
that era, either when I was assistant director of purchasing
21
or when I was director of purchasing, we started to buy
22
fiber, glass fiber from OCF. I can't remember the dates.
23 Q.
Do you remember any other types; of business dealings
24
that you had with OCF prior to 1962?
25
A.
Yes, sir.
26
Q.
What is that?
27 A.
Again, I have to tell you that I'm not positive of
28
these exact dates. But in that time span, The Flintkote
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
TM
' LL
u,, Jl H
34
1
Company was a distributor of Owens-Corning Fibreglas
2
insulation products.
3
Q.
What time period is that that you're talking about?
4
A.
1960's. Could have been prior to that. Certainly
5
in the early '60's.
6
Q.
Do you know what products Flintkote distributed
7
for OCF in the 1960's?
8
A.
Roofing insulation, and what was commonly referred to
9
as insulation, and what was commonly referred to as
10
insulation batts and blankets.
11
Q.
Do you know if any of those products contained
12
asbestos?
13
A.
To my knowledge, no, they did not. To the best
14
of my knowledge, they did not.
15
Q.
Do you know the names of those OCF products that
16
were distributed by Flintkote, other than the generic
17
name, blankets or --
18
A.
Fibreglas was the copyrighted name for Owens-Corninc
19
Fibreglas products.
20
Q.
Would you have any records in your files, or are
21
you aware of any records that would show what kind of
22
Owens-Corning Fibreglas products were, in fact, distributed
23
by Flintkote?
24
A.
I have none.
25
Q.
Do you know of anyone who might have those records?
26
MR. SCHROETER:
That calls for speculation,
27
Counsel.
28
Don't answer that.
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
35
1
MR. GRELL:
it doesn't call for speculation.
2
I'm asking if he knows, Counsel.
3
THE WITNESS:
I do not.
4
MR. GRELL:
Q. So you said that when
5
you were working as the corporate relations officer, you
6
don't recall having any dealings with H. K. Porter at
7
that time or with Raymark; is that correct?
.8
A.
9
Q.
10
A.
I do not, not in that time span.
What about Celotex or Philip
Carey Corporation?i
i
I don't -- I don't know -- I cannot remember
11
whether I did or did not in that time span.
12
Q.
Again, would you have any records that might help
I
j
13
refresh your recollection?
14
A.
I would have no records.
15
Q.
Do you know of anyone who might have such records?
16
A.
No, I do not.
17
Q.
Do you recall having any business relationship
18
with Unarco?
19
MR. SCHROETER:
You're speaking for the
20
five-year period beginning, in '62?
21
MR. GRELL:
Yes. We're limiting it now
22
to the time that he was corporate manager for commercial
23
relations.
24
THE WITNESS:
Counselor, I'm having
25
difficulty trying to remember in what time span I had some
26
contact with people you're identifying. I just don't know.
27
Unarco, if I am correct, was associated with Lake Asbestos
CO CO
28
in someway, I believe.
______________________ ____________________________ PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
. FyAN 60 1? FLD ^o o
36
1
MR. SILBERFELD:
Ask him.
2
THE WITNESS:
I don't know.
3
MR. SCHROETER:
If that's the best you can
4
say, don't struggle.
5
THE WITNESS:
I don't know.
6
MR. GRELL:
Q. Just so the record is
7
clear,
I'm not trying to mislead you. Do you recall
8
ever, during your time with Flintkote, having a corporate
9
relation with H. K. Porter?
10
A.
No, sir.
11
Q.
Do you ever, during thetime you've worked at
12
Flintkote or Genstar, recall ever having a relationship
13
with Raymark or Raybestos-Manhattan?
14
A.
Yes, sir.
15
Q.
When was the firsttime youstarted todevelop a
16
relationship with Raybestos-Manhattan?
17
MR. TRAPANI:
I'm going to object to that
18
as vague. Are you using "you" generically?
19
MR. GRELL:
I'm talking about "you," as
20
Flintkote.
21
MR. SCHROETER:
Thank you, fellow counsel,
22
for your objection, because I had taken that to be a
23
question directed personally to Mr. Hooker. And I think
24
he has answered the question so far with respect to himself
25
and his work in the corporate office as corporate relations
26
manager.
27
So if you're now switching gears and you're asking
28
him corapanywide, make it plain.
irro>fM'3.
CO CD
CO CO
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFICO SHORTHANO r e p o r t e r s
FyAM 01? FLD 0000
37
1
MR. GRELL:
I'm asking for his knowledge.
2
MR. SCHROETER:
Even that, you might specifi
3
cally ask, so he will not be misled. I know you're not
4
trying to, but try not to.
5
MR. JAMES MILLER:
Chris, is this careerwide?
6
That's what you're asking?
7
MR. GRELL:
Yes.
8
THE WITNESS:
9
to restate the question?
10
MR. GRELL:
If I may, may I ask you please J
i
!
Q. Sure.
;
11
You've been employed by Flintkote from 1946,
12
basically, up to the present time now, true?
j
13
A.
Yes, sir.
jI
14
Q.
We were talking earlier about commercial relationships J
15
during the period of 1962 to 1967 when you were working as
16
a corporate relations officer. And during the earlier
17
line of questions, I asked you if, during the period of
18
time, you had any corporate relations with H. K. Porter,
19
and you said you did not during that time period.
20
Now I'm asking you, do you recall, in your position
21
at Flintkote, ever having any kind of corporate dealings
22
with H. K. Porter?
23
A.
No, sir.
24
Q.
Same thing with Raymark. I asked you earlier if
25
you had any corporate relations with them, and you said no.
26
A.
Corporate relationships, no.
27
Q.
Did you have personal relationships with Raybestos-
mcoc o
28
Manhattan?
________________________ ----- --------- ---------PiiM 601?--
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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CERTIFIED Sh ORTHANO REPORTERS
38
1
A.
Only as a salesman.
2
Q.
What relationship did you have as a salesman with
3
Raymark?
4
A.
Raybestos-Manhattan, in those days, I called on them
5
as a salesman for asbestos fiber.
6
Q.
So this was before 1962?
7
A.
No, it was after.
8
Q.
Well then, we'll get to that.
9
A.
I'm sorry, Counselor.
10
Q.
I know we're trying to cover many years, and I'm
11
trying to keep it straight.
12
A.
I'm having trouble defining whether your questions
13
are within a certain time span or the total time I've worked
14
for the company. I `m having trouble.
15
Q.
Earlier my questions were related to the time span
16
which you had the job as corporate commercial officer.
i
17
A.
Yes, sir.
18
Q.
I'm trying to shorten it up a little bit by trying
19
to find out about the entire period of time. But we're
20
going back now to the time period when you were the corporate 1 i
21
relations officer.
22
During that time, you did not have any business
23
relationships with Raymark; is that correct?
24
A.
Not that I recall.
25
Q.
And I understand that you said earlier that you don't
26
recall having any relationships with Celotex.
27
A.
No, sir.
28
MR. TRAPANI:
! Objection. I believe that
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
FvAM FLO
60193335 00003069
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1
misstates his testimony.
2
MR. GRELL:
Q. Do you recall having any
3
business relationships with Celotex or Philip Carey during
4
the time that you worked as commercial corporate relations
5
officer?
6
A.
The two -- Am I correct you're identifying the two
7
companies, Philip Carey and Celotex? Is that the two
8
companies you've identified?
9
Q.
Yes.
10
A.
I don't recall of any -- in that time span -- of
11
any contacts that I had.
12
Q.
What about with Unarco?
13
A.
None.
14
Q.
What about with Fibreboard Corporation?
15
A.
In that time span, I don't recall of any.
16
Q.
What about with Pittsbugh Corning?
17
A.
None that I remember.
18
Q.
Armstrong?
19
A.
I can't recall of any.
20
Q.
Eagle Picher?
21
A.
None.
22
Q.
Keene Corporation?
23
A.
None.
24
Q.
What about GAF?
25
A.
None that I recall.
26
Q.
Ruberoid?
27
A.
Now Counselor, I have a problem. At some point
28
in time, Ruberoid became part of GAF, and I don't --
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHAND r e p o r t e r s
FLD 00003070
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1
Q.
I've got the same problem.
2
A.
I've got a problem. I don't know how to answer
3
the question. Not to the best of my knowledge. Again,
4
at some point in time, I had contact with Ruberoid. But
5
I don't know. I can't remember the years.
6
Q.
What about Nicolet?
7
A.
Not at that point in time.
8
Q.
After 1967, what did you do for Flintkote?
j
i
9
A.
Manager of national accounts for Hankins Container
10
Division.
11
MR. JAMES MILLER:
Would you repeat that, please? j
12
THE WITNESS:
Manager of national account
I
i
13
sales for Hankins, H-a-n-k-i-n-s, Container Division.
i
!
14
MR. GRELL:
Q. Is that company affiliated j
i
15
with Flintkote in any way?
;
16
A.
Not now.
17
Q.
Was it at the time?
j
18
A.
Yes, sir.
19
Q.
What was that business about?
20
A.
Its primary product was corrugated shipping
21
containers.
22
Q.
And what were your responsibilities as manager of
23
national accounts for Hankins Container Division?
24
A.
Coordinated the sales from some eleven plant
25
locations to major industrial users of corrugated shipping j
i
26
containers.
!
!
27
Q.
Any other products? Was that the only product?
' j
28
A.
Lamp wraps.
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED Sh OATh a n D REPORTERS
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41
1
Q.
Lamp wraps?
2
A.
The little corrugated white sleeve that you buy
3
in the grocery store when you get a couple of light bulbs.
4
Q.
How long did you have that position?
5
A.
Two years.
6
Q.
Until about 1969?
|
7
A.
Yes, sir.
8
Q.
And then what did you do?
9
A.
I was transferred back to corporate as national
i
10
accounts sales manager.
j
11
Q.
Could you repeatthat?
12
A.
I was transferred back to the corporate office as
j
13
national accounts sales manager.
j
14
I had other functions,too. I'll go on and tell
j
tI
15
you what they were.
1
j
16
Q.
You say you went back as national accounts sales
\
j
17
manager. I don't recall you saying earlier that you had
j
i
18
had that position at anytime earlier.
19
A.
Pardon me. I went back. I physically went back,
j
i
20
because my office for Hankins Container was in Cleveland,
21
versus prior to that ithad been in New York.
22
Q.
So you went back to New York.
23
A.
Yes, sir.
24
Q.
And what company or division ofFlintkote were
I
25
you working with?
j
26
A.
At what point in time?
j
27
Q.
When you left the Container Division.
j
28
A.
Went back to the Flintkote corporate office.
!
_______________________________________________________________ I
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHANO REPORTERS
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00003072
42
1
Q.
And that was back in New York?
2
A.
Yes, sir.
3
Q.
And that was in 1969, and you became national
4
accounts sales manager?
5
A.
For The Flintkote Company.
6
Q.
Could you --
7
A.
I was -- I had other functions.
8
Q.
What other functions did you have?
9
A.
I was sales.manager for Flintkote Mines, Limited,
10
Canada.
11
Q.
Taking them one at a time, as national accounts
12
sales manager, what was your job responsibilities?
13
A.
To coordinate the sales activities and relationships
14
with major industrial companies through all the divisions
15
of The Flintkote Company.
16
Define it in another way: We had, roughly, ten
17
operating divisions, and where two of those divisions
18
were doing business with a major industrial account, I
19
coordinated the sales from a corporate point of view.
20
Q.
Any other responsibilities besides coordinating
21
sales?
22
A.
Yes. I had the sales responsibility for Flintkote
23
Mines, Limited in Canada.
24
Q.
I'm just now limiting it to your responsibilities
25
as national accounts sales manager.
26
A.
That was the job; sales.
27
Q.
Were you involved in policy, corporate policymaking?
28
MR. SCHROETER:
Policy of what? Counsel,
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHANO flE P O flT g B S
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~ ~ 7T~
0000401 a
43
1
I will tell him not to answer the question as posed. What
2
kind of policy? The objection is that it's vague when you
3
say policy.
4
MR. GRELL:
Q. If you were involved in
5
any policymaking decisions, I'm not quite sure what
6
policymaking decisions --
7
MR. SCHROETER:
You mean sales policy?
8
MR. GRELL:
Sales policy, for example.
9
THE WITNESS:
In a general way, yes.
10
MR. GRELL:
Q. Were you involved in
11
policy regarding packaging of your products?
12
A.
Not in that -- not in that job assignment.
13
Q.
Were you involved in the policy regarding the safety
14
and welfare of Flintkote's employees?
15
A.
No, sir.
16
Q.
Moving to your responsibilities as sales manager
17
for Flintkote Mines, Limited, can you describe what your
18
job was for Flintkote Mines?
19
A.
We manufactured and we, beingFlintkote Mines,
20
Limited, manufactured and sold raw asbestos fiber throughout
21
the world. And I had that sales responsibility.
22
MR. SCHROETER:
Clarifying the question: You
23
sold throughout the world, but you made it only in one
24
place.
25
THE WITNESS:
That is correct.
26
MR. GRELL:
Q. Where was Flintkote Mines,
27
Limited located?
28
A.
Thetford Mines, Quebec, Canada.
* _....
FuAH Fl D
60 1? S3 35 000G307U _
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1
Q.
Would you like to take a break, Mr. Hooker? We've
2
been going for an hour.
3
MR. SILBERFELD:
I would.
4
THE WITNESS:
Okay.
5
MR. GRELL:
Anytime you get tired, just
6
let me know.
7
(Whereupon, there was a recess taken at 10:30
8
o'clock a.m., and the deposition resumed at 10:45 o'clock
9
a .m.)
10
MR. GRELL:
Back on the record.
11
Q.
Mr. Hooker, you said that you were sales manager for
12
Flintkote Mines, Limited. What was the corporate relation
13
ship between Flintkote Mines, Limited and The Flintkote
14
Company?
15
A.
Flintkote Mines, Limited was a wholly-owned
* i
16
subsidiary of The Flintkote Company.
17
Q.
You also said that, as sales manager for Flintkote
18
Mines, you manufactured and sold asbestos fiber throughout
19
the world. Do you remember any specific places that the
20
asbestos fiber was sold to that was mined for Flintkote
21
Mines?
22
A.
Yes. You said places or companies?
23
Q.
Companies.
24
A.
Ataka is a trading company in Japan. I sold to
25
Ataka.
26
Mordilar Premchand, India.
27
Q.
Can we start with the United States companies that
m in
CO T'-
28
you sold to?
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHANO REPORTERS
FvftM 601?33 FLD oOO j O
45
1
MR. SCHROETER:
Well, do you want the others at
2
all? Start east, work back.
3
MR. GRELL:
Let's start with United States
4
companies.
5
A.
Raybestos-Manhattan, Celotex.
6
You're talking United States now?
7
Q.
Yes.
8
A.
Huxley Development, which was a distribution
9
company or a manufacturer's rep.
10
W e 're talking about United States now, correct?
11
Q.
Right.
12
A.
Those are the --
13
Q . Let me just ask you, didyou sell any fiber to
14
Johns-Manville?
15
A.
Not in the United States-. 1 did not sell to them
16
in the United States.
17
Q.
Did you sell to them in Canada?
18
A.
Yes.
19
Q.
When we're talking about sales, how long were you
20
sales manager for Flintkote Mines?
21
A.
Three years, until the mines shut down in December
22
of '71.
23
Q.
Do you know when the minesopened up?
24
A.
19 -- late '45, early '46.
25
Q.
Are you familiar with the sales from 1946 to the
26
time you started as sales manager for Flintkote Mines?
27
A.
In a general way. Not specifically.
28
Q.
Do you know what sales were made to Flintkote Mines
-------------------------------------------------r'.-AM QIc
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
rLD o o g o
CERTIFIED SHORTHANO REPORTERS
ID so ccoo or>. co co
46
1
during the period 1946 to the time you started working in
2
that position?
3
A.
I do not know.
4
Q.
Do you know who your predecessor was as sales manager
5
for Flintkote Mines?
6
A.
Yes, sir.
7
Q.
Who was that?
8
A.
James Main.
9
MR. JAMES MILLER:
Spell it, please.
10
THE WITNESS:
M-a-i-n.
11
MR. GRELL:
Q. Do you know where Mr. Main
12
presently lives?
13
A.
He is retired in Florida, and dual residency in
14
New Jersey.
15
Q.
Do you know his address?
16
A.
I can give it to you.
17
Q.
Would you give it to me, please?
18
A.
I have my book here, because I figure I'll make
19
telephone calls. And in this book is his address
20
(indicating).
21
MR. SCHROETER:
22
MR. GRELL:
23
A . , do you know?
24
A.
I believe it is.
Give it to him. Q. Is his middle initial
25
I have not the address but the phone numbers only.
26
Q.
Could you give me his phone number?
27
A.
28
Boka Raton, 305-997-8173.
MR. TRAPANI:
Could you r e p e a t t h a t a g a i n ,
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED Sh o r t h a n d r e p o r t e r s
FvAH o i 3 3 5 FLD 001
47
1
please?
2
THE WITNESS:
305-997-8173
3
MR. TRAPANI:
Thank you.
4
MR. GRELL:
Q. And his New Jersey phone
5
number?
6
A.
I stand corrected. It's not New Jersey, it's
7
Connecticut. 203-245-7230.
8
Q.
Have you talked with Mr. Main in the past year or so?
9
A.
Yes, sir.
10
Q.
Have you met with Mr. Main?
11
A.
No, sir.
12
Q.
Do you know how long Mr. Main worked as sales
13
manager of Flintkote Mines?
14
A.
I do not.
15
Q.
Getting back tosales from Flintkote Mines, Limited,
16
Canada, you talked about Raybestos-Manhattan, Celotex,
17
Huxley Development, sales to J-M in Canada. Did you ever
18
sell asbestos fiber to Owens-Coming Fibreglas?
19
A.
20
Q.
No, sir. H. K. Porter?
21
A.
22
Q.
23
A.
24
Q.
Not that I recall. Celotex? And in what context inow are we talking? U.S. sales.
25
A.
U.S. sales, no.
26
Q-
Did you have any foreign sales to Celotex?
27
A.
The sale was made in Canada to Celotex. Their
28
Philip -- Now I'm confused, because I don't remember
O CO
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
FvAM 0 1 9 3 FLD 00003
48
1
organization of Celotex. There's an interlocking
2
relationship between Celotex and Philip Carey, and I
3
can't remember what it is now, exactly, at what time.
4
So....
5
Q.
When we're referring to sales, are you referring to
6
sales during the time that you worked as the sales manager
7
for Flintkote Mines?
8
A.
Yes, sir.
9
Q.
Do you have knowledge of sales in Flintkote Mines
10
before the time you assumed that position?
11
MR. TRAPANI:
Asked and answered.
12
THE WITNESS:
In a general -- In a general
13
way.
14
MR. GRELL:
Q. And I believe that earlier
15
you said that you don't have any specific recollection of
16
what sales were made from the Flintkote Mines to various
17
companies prior to the time you took over that job.
18
A.
Do not have specific knowledge.
19
Q.
So we're talking about sales, we're talking about
20
sales from the time you took over until about 1969.
21
A.
The only knowledge I have is what is in the records.
22
Q.
What record are you referring to?
23
A.
24
Q.
Sales records. Do you have salesrecords
before 1969?
25
A.
Yes.
26
Q.
Do you know how far back you have sales records to?
27
A.
I b e l i e v e the earliest is 1959.
28
Q.
Do you know where those records are kept, Mr. Hooker?
O CO --J CO
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
Fv AM 601? FID 0000.
49
1
A.
I have a copy of some sales records in my files.
2
Q.
Do you know any other location within Flintkote's
3
organization that other records might be kept?
4
A.
Counsel for Flintkote, Flintkote's own counsel, has
3
sales records, and I believe outside counsel has sales
6
records.
7
Q.
Getting back to the Celotex-Philip Carey problem,
8
do you remember having sales to Philip Carey when you
9
worked as sales manager for Flintkote Mines?
10
A.
Yes.
11
Q.
Do you remember having sales to Celotex?
12
A.
I'm back in the same problem again. I don't know
13
when Celotex and Philip-Carey, one or the other.
14
Q.
I'm asking you now, does Celotex refresh your
15
recollection, seeing it on some of the sales records
16
that you've referred to a moment ago? And if you don't
17
know, you don't know. I'm not trying to put you through --
18
A.
I don't know specifically when Philip Carey was part
19
of Celotex.
20
Q.
What about sales to
Unarco?
21
A.
I -- No.
22
Q.
What about sales to
Fibreboard?Doyou recall
23
sales to them?
24
A.
I do not.
25
Q.
Do you recall making sales to Pittsburg Corning?
26
A.
No, sir.
27
Q.
What aboutArmstrong?
28
A.
No.
FvAM 0 1 9 3 3 ^
__ _____________________ _ _ _ _ _ _________________________________FLO 000030fc0
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
' CERTIFIED SHORTHANO REPORTERS
50
1
Q.
Eagle Picher?
2
A.
No, sir.
3
Q.
Keene?
4
A.
Do not recall.
I
5
Q.
GAF?
6
A.
Again, Counselor, I have trouble. Ruberoid became
t
i
7
a part of GAF. I do not know the dates, and, therefore,
8
I can't answer the question.
j
9
O.
Do you recall selling to either Ruberoid or GAF?
!
10
A.
Yes, sir.
j
i
11
Q.
What about to Nicolet?
i
i
12
A.
No.
I
i
13
Q.
How long did you work as sales manager, national
j
i
14
accounts sales manager?
j
15
A.
These were overlapping responsibilities from 1969
16
until 19 -- late '71, I guess.
!
i
17
Q.
Then what was your next position?
18
A.
Vice president-general manager ofFlintkote
19
International Licensing.
20
MR. JAMES MILLER:
Flintkote what, sir?
i
21
THE WITNESS:
International Licensing.
j
22
MR. GRELL:
Q. You became vice president
23
around 1971?
24
A.
Of a division -- Flintkote International Licensing, j
t
25
a division of The Flintkote Company.
j
JI
26
Q.
Could you tell me your responsibilities in that
27
position?
28
A.
To develop contractual sales f o r m a n u f a c t u r i n g
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED Sh ORTHANO REPORTERS
r ,,A,,
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51
1
systems and product application systems that had been
2
patented by The Flintkote Company.
3
Q.
What kind of manufacturing systems?
4
A.
The primary one was the process of replacing fluorspar I
5
in the basic oxygen furnace with a raw material called
j
j
6
Colmenit in the basic oxygen furnace at the steel mill level.
7
Q.
Any other responsibilities other than what you've
i
8
mentioned?
|
!
9
A.
Those were the three basic ones, national account
| i
10
sales, mine sales and international licensing. They overlap.
11
Q.
Did they overlap so that, as a vice president, you
12
were still involved with sales, Flintkote Mines, and
i
13
national sales for The Flintkote Company?
14
A.
A brief overlap there.
15
Q.
When did the overlap stop?
j
16
A.
The mines shut down in December of 1971, and I was
j
17
involved in the international licensing operation until --
18
December of '73.
i 19
Q.
How long were you vice president of International
j
20
Licensing?
|
21
A.
Approximately 1970 to 1973, December of '73.
22
Q.
Then what position did you occupy after being
23
vice president of International Licensing?
24
A.
I became the manager of purchasing for the Building
25
Materials Division.
26 Q. Could you describe your responsibilities in that i
27
job?
28
A.
To administer the purchases of critical or large
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
FyAh 0193-a7.5 FID G0 0 3
52
1
volume raw materials for the various manufacturing
2
operations of the Building Materials Division.
3
Q.
Did you purchase asbestos?
4
A.
Yes, sir.
5
Q.
Who did you purchase asbestos from during that time
6
when you started in that position?
7 A. Flintkote Mines, Limited, Union Carbide, Atlas i
8
Asbestos, Huxley Development Company.
j
9
Q.
Going back to Atlas Asbestos, do you know where
10
Atlas Asbestos was located?
11
A.
Coalinga, California
12
MR. SCHROETER:
You've answered the question.
13
MR. GRELL:
Q. Can you think of any
14
others? Flintkote Mines, Union Carbide, Atlas Asbestos.
15
Any other places that you purchased asbestos from?
16
A.
That's all that I can recall.
17
Q.
Do you have any records that might help refresh
18
your recollection as to where you purcheised additional
j
19
sources of asbestos?
|
i
20
A.
Those records should exist in retention, in retained j
21
files.
22
Q.
Do you know who has those files?
23
A.
I believe they are all in Irving, Texas. I'm not
24
positive.
25
Q.
Did you review any of those records prior to coming j
26
here to today's deposition?
27
A.
No, sir.
|
28
Q.
Did you see any of those records in t h e S t e r n s box
j
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
1f"* ,It, wr.
r IN ru y
0193335 0 0 0 C30 83
53
1
of documents that was referred to at the beginning of this
2
deposition?
3
A.
I don't recall of seeing any purchase -- Flintkote
4
purchase records.
5
Q.
How long did you work as manager-purchaser for
6
industrial material products? How long did you work as
l
7
manager-purchasing industrial products, the job you just
j
i
8
described?
|
(
9
A.
Well, if I may correct --
!
10
Q.
Okay, correct me, because I think I have the title
11
wrong.
12
A.
I have been the manager of purchasing for the
13
Building Materials Division of The Flintkote Company since
14
1974.
I
15
Now, what was your lastquestion?
I
16
Q.
Is that still your position today?
17
A.
Yes, sir.
\
i
18
Q.
So you've worked as manager of purchasing building
19
materials for Flintkote from approximately '73-'74 to the
20
present?
21
A.
Yes, sir.
j
22
Q.
From 1973 to the present, were you involved in
23
sales of Flintkote products?
24
A.
The only sales I've been involved in as purchasing
25
agent, as they were, of years gone by. Same. Surplus
i
26
materials, reject materials.
j
27
Q.
Do you remember selling any reject asbestos fiber
28
from 1973 to the present?
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS)
FyAM FLD
0193335 00003C8U
54
1
A.
No.
2
Q.
Do you know if there's any records that would show
3
those sales?
4
A.
I don't know whether such records exist.
5
Q.
Have you ever seen any such records within the past
6
year or so?
7
A.
I have seen no records of -- During the time span
8
you have identified -- I have seen some records of the
9
sale of asbestos fiber. I do not remember the time span.
10
Best that I can do.
11
Q.
Do you know where those records are or where you've
12
seen those records?
13
A.
They were at least detailed, to some extent, in
14
responses for either requests for admissions or interroga
15
tories .
16
Q.
Do you remember actually seeing the document itself?
17
Not a reference to the document.
18
A.
Yes. May I ask, is this raw asbestos fiber you're
19
talking about?
20
Q.
I'm talking about sales of asbestos fiber now.
21
A.
Raw asbestos fiber. No, I don't recall of seeing
22
the documents of raw asbestos fiber.
23
Q.
Do you recall seeing records of sales of asbestos
24
products?
25
A.
26
Q.
Yes, sir. Do you recall seeing those sales records of asbestos
27
products in the group of documents that you reviewed prior
28
to today's deposition that you talked about earlier?
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
Fv AM
ii
?lD
55
1
A.
Yes, sir.
2
Q.
Do you recall any other sales records that you've
3
seen that weren't included in the group of documents that
j
4
you reviewed prior to coming to today's deposition, which
J
5
we've talked about this morning?
6
MR. SCHROETER:
Objection. Vague. You mean
j
7
has he ever seen them or has he seen them just the day before !
ji
8
this deposition?
9
MR. GRELL:
Q. I'm asking you if you are aware j
10
of any additional sales records that were not in the box
[
jI
11
with sales records that you reviewed prior to today's
12
deposition when you met with counsel.
j
I
i 13
A.
No, sir.
I
j 14
MR. SCHROETER:
They weren't in the box.
j 15
MR. SILBERFELD:
Do you mind if I jump in a
J
16
little bit?
j
l
17
MR. GRELL:
He's got a lot of the documents ! |
I
18
that I've just been referring to.
19
MR. SCHROETER:
What sequence you gentlemen
,
20
take among each other is your business. I will object to
'
21
any three-party dialogue, of course. So if you're deferring
22
to Mr. Silberfeld now, then so be it.
23
MR. GRELL:
Mr. Silberfeld has a number
24
of documents that were produced in the Sterns case.
25
MR. SCHROETER:
We'll hear from him now and
26
not from you.
27
MR. GRELL:
I'm going to shut up for
28
awhile.
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHANO REPORTERS
l
^>-0
56
1
MR. SILBERFELD:
For the time being.
2
3
EXAMINATION BY MR. SILBERFELD
4
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. Mr. Hooker, I have some
j
3
questions for you about some of the things you've alreadv
;
!
6
testified about. Let me just try to clear them u d , i f I
j
I
7
can.
j
8
We met upstairs, and I don't think I told you at
j
i
9
that time I represent some plaintiffs in the Los Angeles
j
|
10
cases.
j
11
MR. SCHROETER:
You should always say that
j
12
right at the first.
13
MR. SILBERFELD:
i !
I forgot to say that upstairs. j
14
Sorry about that.
j
15
Q.
At the time that you joined Flintkote in 1946,
|
!
16
how many divisions did the company have, if you have an
!
17
understanding about that?
I
1
18
A.
If you want a general answer, about ten.
j
!
19
Q.
And at that time when you joined up as a sales
20
trainee, what were the major business categories or product ; I
21
categories the company had at thattime?
i
22
A.
Flintkote Company had roofing, industrial products,
j
23
floor tile, insulation board, fiber -- wood fiber insulation
24
board, some miscellaneous specialty products, such as
25
adhesives, and some marineproducts.
j
26
Q.
Would those then be the major product categories
!
27
that existed as of 1946?
28
A.
As of the time of my employment.
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHANO REPORTERS
^
ooooioi?
57
1
Q-
I'm sure you've seen this document. It's Exhibit D
2
to some answers to interrogatories that have been filed
3
in the Los Angeles cases. It purports to be a description
4
of packaging of Flintkote products, but I don't want to ask
5
you about the packaging. There are listed here some
6
product categories. Let me show you this.
7
MR. SCHROETER:
Excuse me. If there's going
8
to be more of this, which there no doubt will be, let's
9
be as precise as we can. Roman, would you please tell the
10
record exactly what the set is and what this is an exhibit
11
to?
12
MR. SILBERFELD:
It's an exhibit to Flintkote's
13
responses to interrogatories in the St. Jacque and
14
Beauregard cases, B-e-a-u-r-e-g-a-r-d. The specific
15
document I'm talking about is Exhibit D, which consists
16
of two pages. And the proof of service of these, because
17
these are not verified, the proof of service of these is
18
dated September 9, 1983.
19
MR. SCHROETER:
Thank you.
20
MR. ROSEN:
Excuse me. Just for the
21
record, the answers to which you referred were verified
22
by a subsequent verification signed by Mr. Hooker.
23
THE WITNESS:
There's one more product to
24
add to your list.
25
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. Product category?
26
A.
Asbestos cement shingles and board.
27
Q,
Thank you, sir.
28
Now, with reference to Exhibit I), I'd like to compare
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED Sh O R Tm ANO REPORTERS
~
FvAM 0193335 FLD 00003088
58
1
Exhibit D to the list you've just given us, if you could.
2
And the second page, let me show you here. In other words,
3
i t 's backwards.
4
MR. SCHROETER:
5
it to himself first?
What do you him to do? Read
6
MR. SILBERFELD:
7
a look at it.
Yes. I want him to just take II t
i
iI
8
MR. SCHROETER:
Read it to yourself and just
j
l
9
tell him when you're done. Page and a hcilf.
J
10
THE WITNESS:
(Examining document.)
|
11
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. Have you had a chance to
12
look at it, sir?
13
A.
14
Q.
Yes, sir. At the suggestion of counsel, let me mark this
15
document as Plaintiffs' 1.
16
(WHEREUPON, A PHOTOCOPY OF A
TWO-PAGE DOCUMENT ENTITLED
17
"DESCRIPTION OF PACKAGING
OF FLINTKOTE ASBESTOS PRODUCTS"
18
WAS MARKED AS PLAINTIFFS'
EXHIBIT NO. 1 FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
19
20
MR. SCHROETER:
I'll make a request of the
21
reporter right now, that at least on my copy, that the
22
exhibits be made part of the transcript.
23
MR. SILBERFELD:
W e 'll do that with all of them.
24
MR. SCHROETER:
Good.
25
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. Mr. Hooker, with respect
26
to Plaintiffs' No. 1, the first category of products listed
27
there are called "Liquid Products."
28
Did Flintkote, at the time you joined the company
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED Sh ORTHANO REPORTERS
FvftM q193335
r i i*\ r LU
G 0 G G 3 G S ?
59
1
in 1946, have a category of "Liquid Products"?
2
A.
Yes, but they'd been defined at that time as
3
"Industrial Products."
4 Q. So they would fall under the "Industrial Products" I
5
rubric that you gave us?
6
A.
That is correct.
7
MR. JUDY:
That's r-u-b-r-i-c.
8
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. The third category on
j
i
9
Plaintiffs' No. 1 is "Asbestos Cement Pipe."
j
I
10
Did Flintkote have a product category of "Asbestos
11
Cement Pipe" in 1946?
12
A.
No, sir.
13
Q.
When did the company first have that product
14
category? It tells us when it ended, in '77, but I don't
15
believe it tells us when it began. Do you know?
j i
I
16
A.
Sometime in the '60's.
|
!
17
Q.
Did the start-up of the "Asbestos Cement Pipe"
i
i
18
portion of the business coincide with the J-M agreement?
19
A.
Yes, sir.
20
Q.
The fifthcategory ofproduct that is listed there
21
is "Orangeburg Fibre Pipe."
1
22
A.
Yes, sir.
23
Q.
Did Flintkote, in 1946, have the "Orangeburg Fibre
24
Pipe" product?
I
I
25
A.
To the best of my knowledge, the acquisition of
26
Orangeburg was at some later date.
27
Q.
Do you recall what decade that was?
C O C*CO cr* CO CO
28
A.
Best of my recollection, it was in the '60's.
________________ ______________________________ PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHOFITHAND REPORTERS
f'.'AM FLD
000!8?0
60
1
Q.
The next item is "Van Packer Chimney."
2
Did that product group exist when you joined the
3
company in 1946?
4
A.
As part of Flintkote, no.
5
Q.
In other words, "Van Packer Chimney" was a separate
6
company in existence in 1946; is that correct, sir?
7
A.
Yes, sir.
8
Q.
9
A.
10
Q.
11
A.
But at that time, it wasn't owned by Flintkote?
i
Correct.
j
t
Do you know when Flintkote purchased it? By decade. |
i
t
May I remark that these answers are all in other
|
1
12
exhibits that he has there.
II
i
13
MR. SCHROETER:
You may remark that, but he
j
14
also can ask.
i
15
THE WITNESS:
16
MR. SCHROETER:
17
just tell him that.
Okay.
j
And if you don't know, you
j
!
18
THE WITNESS:
Well, I can't remember the
i
19
dates. They're a matter of record.
i
i
20
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. If you don't recall, just
21
tell us.
22 A.
No.
23
Q.
24
That's fine. Of the categories of products that you listed for
25
us, would the "Ready-Mix Joint Compounds" fall into this
26
category?
27 A.
None of them.
28 Q.
And it says here that they were manufactured from
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFICO SHORTHAND REPORTERS
FyAM 0193335 r \ r' `00oou1
61
I
1957 on; is that correct?
2
A.
Best of my knowledge, that's the date.
3
MR. SCHROETER:
Manufactured by whom?
4
Just to clarify this dialogue.
5
MR. SILBERFELD:
Well, the exhibit says by
6
Flintkote.
7
MR. SCHROETER:
That's why I'm asking.
8
Manufactured by whom?
9
THE WITNESS:
I might correct you. They
10
were not manufactured by Flintkote.
11
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. Well, is that what the
12
exhibit says?
13
A.
Yes, sir.
14
Q.
Manufactured by independent companies, sold by
15
Flintkote.
16
On the second page of Exhibit 1 --
17
MR. JUDY:
Is that a question and was
18
there an answer?
19
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. Was it correct that the
20
"Ready-Mix Joint Compounds" were made by independent
21
companies and sold by Flintkote?
22
A.
When I went to work for TheFlintkote Company, no.
23
Q.
As of 1935 and onward.
24
A.
Best of my knowledge, that's a correct statement.
25
Q.
On Page 2 of Plaintiffs' 1 is a product category
26
called "Powder Joint Treatment Compound."
27
Are those products that are contained within that
28
description also contained somewhere in the product
CO CO
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
F'Jfi.H / 0! C
62
1
categories you gave us?
2
A.
Not in 1946.
3
Q.
When, to your knowledge, did Flintkote, for the first
4
time, sell "Powder Joint Treatment Compound"?
5
A.
Sometime in either the late '50's or early '60's.
6
Again,-that should be on that other exhibit.
7
Q.
And with respect to the last category on Plaintiffs'
8
1, the "Spray Texture," did Flintkote have a "Spray Texture"
9
product at the time you joined the company in 1946?
10
A.
No, sir.
11
Q.
With regard to the roofing products that the company
12
had when you joined in 1946, did any of those products
13
contain asbestos?
14
A.
Yes, sir.
15
Q.
With regard to theindustrial products, did those
16
industrial products break down into subgroups like the
17
"Liquid Products" and others?
18
A.
Yes, sir.
19
Q.
What subcategories were there other than "Liquid
20
Products"?
21
A.
Floor patching compounds isone.
22
To answer your question in the way it was posed,
23
I can't think of another one that was not either liquid or
24
mastic.
25
Q.
Were there other types of products contained within
26
the industrial products group category that you gave us
27
other than liquids or mastics?
28
A.
Type -- Would you explain what you mean by type?
<** cn
PATRICIA CALLAHAN A ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SMORTHANQ REPORTERS
FvAM 019353 FID 000030?
63
1
Q.
Well, what other products were contained in your
2
description of industrial products other than liquids and
i
3
mastics, for example?
4
A.
Are we in the time span now of 1946?
5
Q.
When you joined the company, yes, sir.
6
A.
7
Q.
I can't think of any other general categories. 1
There is an exhibit that has been attached to various j
8
answers to interrogatories, Mr. Hooker. And it is also
j
l
9
attached as Exhibit A in the same Beauregard set that I
j
10
described earlier, and the same date. Let me show it to you. |
11
It consists of seven pages headed, "Flintkote Asbestos
;
12
Industrial Products." Take a look at that for me, please. !j
t
13
MR. GRELL:
Just so the record is also
j
14
clear, a similar composite document was attached to our
i
1
15
interrogatories served in the Sterns cases and produced
t
i
16
pursuant to our document request.
|
j
17
THE WITNESS:
(Examining document.)
|
18
Okay.
j
19
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. Have you taken a look at
i
20
it, sir?
21
A.
Yes, sir.
j 22 Q. Is that Exhibit A a complete list of the asbestos I
23
industrial products manufactured by Flintkote or sold by
24
Flintkote during various years?
ij
25
A.
To the best of my knowledge.
j
26
Q.
At the time you joined the company, it's correct, is
27
it not, that some of the industrial products manufactured
28
and sold by Flintkote contained asbestos?
_____________________________________________________________ PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
FvfiM 0 i 93335 _ FLD 000030M
64
1
A.
Yes, sir.
2
Q.
At the time you joined the company in 1946, did the
3
floor tile product group contain asbestos?
j
4
A.
Yes, sir.
j
5
Q.
Did the insulation board, the wood fiber insulation
6
board material, contain asbestos?
j
j 7
A.
No, sir.
j
8
Q.
You gave us a category group of miscellaneous
!i
9
specialty products, such as adhesives.
|
10
At the time you joined the company in 1946, did
j
11
any of those products contain asbestos?
j
12
A.
Yes, sir.
j
13
Q.
The product group of marine products that yougave
j
14
us, can you give us an example of some of those?
\
15
A.
Underwater protective coatings.
16
Q.
Anything else?
|
17
A.
That is what I had in mind when I identifiedmarine j
18
products.
19
Q.
Is that a liquid or paint or solid?
j
20
A.
Liquid.
|
21
Q.
To your knowledge, when you joined thecompany,
22
did that product contain asbestos?
23
A.
I don't recall if any of them had asbestos fiber in
24
them or not.
25
Q.
And I take it that the cement shingles and boards
I
26
obviously contained asbestos.
J
27
A.
Yes, sir.
' ij
28
Q.
With regard to the divisions of the company that
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHANO REPORTERS
FvAH 60193330 FLD 00003095
65
1
existed in 1946 when you first joined, how many of those
2
divisions were manufacturing facilities?
3
A.
I have to preface what I'm about to say in the sense
4
that The Flintkote Company acquired different companies over
5
all the years that I was with Flintkote. One which was
i
6
acquired immediately prior to my coming with Flintkote was
7
the Tiletex Company, which later became the Tiletex
8
Division and then the Flooring Division.
9
So in semantics, I have a problem in identifying --
10
in answering your questions, so I'm going to do it in the
j
11
best context I can.
j
j 12
And The Flintkote Company, in 1946, had really only
i
ji 13
one major division in the company, that's The Flintkote
j 14
Company U.S.A., and that was the Pioneer Division of The
j
15
Flintkote Company. All of the other facilities were basically
16
part of what was called the Flintkote Building Materials.
j
I
17
Q.
I'm trying to gain an understanding ofhow the
j
i
18
company was structured.
|
!
19
Practically speaking, for business purposes rather
!
ji 20
than organizationally, at the time you joined in 1946, were
21
there, in fact, ten divisions of the company in 1946?
22
A.
No, sir.
j
23
Q.
There was the Pioneer Division.
24
A.
That is correct.
25
Q.
There was the Building MaterialsDivision.
j
26
A.
Yes, sir.
27
Q.
Were there any other major divisions of the company?
28
A.
Not in the manufacturing business.
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
c e r tific o s h o r th a n d r epo r ter s
FvAM 0 93335 FID 00003096
66
1
Q.
I take it that Tiletex would have fallen under the
2
Building Materials Division.
3
A.
Yes, sir.
j
4
Q.
Other than manufacturing, whatotherbusinesses
!
i
5
were the divisions of Flintkote in other than manufacturing? j
6
A.
They had a Patent andLicensingDivision.
7
As far as the U.S.A. is concerned, that's about it, j
8
in 1946, to the best of my recollection.
9
Q.
Okay.
10
Now you've had an opportunity, Mr. Hooker, over
11
the years, in responses to interrogatories and things,
12
to become familiar with the corporate history of the
i
13
company, have you not?
14
A.
Yes, sir.
15
Q.
So when I ask you questions about what the state
J
16
of affairs was in 1946, I'm not just asking for what you
j
17 knew then but, rather, everything you've learned since i
18
about the state of affairs. Do you understand that?
j
19
A.
Yes, sir.
I
20
Q.
When did the Pioneer Division come into existence?
j
21
A.
To the best of my recollection, it came someplace
22
in the early *20's. Could have been mid-'20's.
23
Q.
And where was the Pioneer Division headquartered?
24
A.
Vernon, California.
25
Q.
How many operating facilties did the Vernon facility j!
{
26
have when you joined the company?
!
27
A.
The Vernon facility itself -- Are you asking me what
28
products we manufactured at the Vernon facility?
CO CO
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
f<?am 601?
F5.D uOiiO
67
1
Q.
We'll get to the products in a second.
2
How many actual plants were there? Just one within
3
the division?
4
A.
Oh, within the division?
5
Q.
Yes, sir.
6
A.
Okay. When I first came to work for the company.
7
The one Vernon -- It was the -- No, there were one,
6
two -- There were -- There was one other facility besides
9
the Vernon facility at the time.
10
Q.
Where was that one?
i
11
A.
It was in Hollywood, called the Hollywood Box
12
Company.
13
Q.
At the time you joined the company in 1946, what
14
was the business of the Vernon facility? What happened
15
16
A.
A paper mill; a roofing plant; a liquids, quote,
17
"industrial," end quote, products plant; a corrugated box
18
plant; a folding carton plant; and I don't think I mentioned
19
it -- a floor tile plant.
20
Q.
And what was the business of the Hollywood facility?
21
A.
Set up boxes.
22
Q.
What?
23
A.
As a layman, you wouldrecognize them as a candy box.
24
It's a rigid-type box.
25
Q.
Would it be correct to say that the Vernon facility,
26
at the time you joined the company in the mid-'40's,
27
was engaged in the manufacture of products that contained
28
asbestos?
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
F VAM ir- ti- Lrv'
AV iWi i* ? 3w 3 3 5
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68
1
A.
Yes, sir.
2
Q.
That included the roofing products?
3
A.
if not in '46, soon thereafter.
4
Q.
The liquid products?
5
A.
Yes, sir.
6
Q. ' The floor tile products?
7
A.
Yes.
8
Q.
Any of the other major categories?
9
A.
Read them, please.
10
Q.
Paper, folding cartons, corrugated boxes.
11
A.
No.
12
Q.
At the time you joined the company in 1946, how
13
many other roofing plants did the company have around the
14
country other than at Vernon?
15
A.
Three others.
16
Q.
Where were they located?
17
A.
East Rutherford, New Jersey; New Orleans, Lousiana;
18
and Chicago Heights, Illinois.
19
Q.
At the time you joined the company in 1946, did the
20
company have other floor tile plants other than Vernon?
21
A.
Chicago Heights was the only one that I recall
22
being in existence at that time.
23
Q.
Did the company have any other manufacturing plants
24
for its liquid products line --
25
A.
Yes, sir.
26
Q.
-- other thanVernon?
27
A.
Yes, sir.
28
Q.
Where was it?
C i.ifttt
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHANO REPORTERS
69
1
A.
East Rutherford, New Jersey; Chicago Heights; I'm
2
not positive, but I believe the New Orleans liquid products
3
plant was in operation at that time.
4
I had one more. Atlas, the eastern division, in
5
Manayunk, Pennsylvania, was making a liquid product of a
6
sort or industrial products. These were the specialty
j
7
adhesives and so forth that I identified in a previous
j
8
question.
9
Q.
Now we talked about the basic makeup or structure
i
10
of the Pioneer Division. I 'd like to talk about the
|
I
11
structure of the Building Materials Division, if we can,
12
for a moment. All right?
13
A.
Yes, sir.
I
14 Q. What products other than those manufactured or ji
15
those product categories manufactured at Vernon were
J
16
manufactured by the Building Materials Division? Major
j
17
categories of products, now.
j
18
A.
In 1946?
|
I
19
Q.
Yes, sir.
!
i
20
A.
The wood fiber insulation board, Meridian, Mississippi.
21
Asbestos cement shingles and board at three plant locations.
22
The Atlas adhesives operation. We have felt mills. But
23
wait a minute. That's not different from -- We had a paper
24
mill in Vernon.
i
25
You're asking me other than what we were doing in
j
i
26
Vernon.
|
27
Q.
Yes.
j
i
28
A.
I think that covers it. .
!j,v"n Vil f?3?5 r L L'` u *JU u o 1U 0
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
70
1
Q.
Which are the three plants that were involved in
2
the asbestos shingles and board plants?
3
A.
East Rutherford, New Jersey; New Orleans; and
4
Chicago Heights.
5
Q.
And the Atlas plant was located where, sir?
6
A.
in Manayunk, Pennsylvania.
i 7
Q.
I 'm sorry, sir?
8
A.
It's a suburb of Philadelphia.
j
I
9
Q.
At the time you joined the company, organizationally, j
10
was there a person in charge of the Pioneer Division?
|
11
A.
Yes, sir.
1
12
Q.
Who was that?
i
j!
13
A.
Simpson was his last name. I can'tremember his
14
first name.
j
I
15
Q.
Is he living or dead, do you know?
\
16
A.
I don't know.
j
j 17
Q.
Do you know who headed up the Pioneer Division in
i
18
the 1950's?
i
19
A.
George Pecaro.
!
i
20
Q.
How do you spell the lastname?
21
A.
P-e-c-a-r-o.
22
Q.
Is Mr. Pecaro alive or dead?
!
j 23
A.
Alive.
1
I
i 24
Q.
Do you know where?
I
25
A.
Pauma Valley, California.
i
26
Q.
I noticed your address book has disappeared. You
27
wouldn't have his address in there, would you?
28
A.
I don't know whether it's in there or not.
CO o
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED Sh ORTHANO REPORTERS
FvAM 601933 FLO 000031
71
1
MR. SCHROETER:
Eagle eyes Silberfeld.
2
THE WITNESS:
(Examining document.)
3
No, I do not have it.
4
MR. ROSEN:
Excuse me for a second, sir.
5
The city you described for Mr. Pecaro's residence, is that
6
a city near San Diego?
7
THE WITNESS:
Yes.
8
MR. ROSEN:
Could it be Pauma Valley?
9
THE WITNESS :
Yes. I think it's closer to
10
Oceanside.
11
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. Do you know during what
12
years Mr. Pecaro was in charge of the Pioneer Division?
j
1
13
A.
1947 to 1954.
!i
i
14
I beg your pardon. It's later than that. '58.
j
i
15
Q.
Do you know who succeeded Mr. Pecaro?
16
A.
Yes, sir.
17
Q.
Who's that?
18
A.
Wilson Harvey.
19
Q.
Is Mr. Harvey living or dead? Do you know?
20
A.
Yes. Living.
21
Q.
Where is he?
22
A.
In Los Angeles.
23
Q.
Is he still employed by Flintkote?
24
A.
He's retired.
25
Q.
Do you happen to have his address in your book?
26
You should have never brought it.
27
A.
No, sir.
28
Q.
During what years was Mr. Harvey the head of the
co o
PATRICIA CALLAHAN 4 ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED Sh o r t h a n d REPORTERS
f T ah
FL&
72
1
Pioneer Division?
2
A.
Approximately 1979.
3
Q.
So from *58 to '79?
4
A.
Yes, sir.
5
Q.
And who succeeded Mr. Harvey?
6
A.
Mr. A1 Whersdofer.
7
Q.
Could you spell the last name?
8
A.
W-h-e-r-s-d-o-f-e-r.
9
Q.
Is he still employed by Flintkote?
10
A.
Yes, sir.
11
Q.
In that capacity?
12
A.
No.
13
Q.
14
A.
What's he doing now? He's the manager of the Florence, Colorado, gypsum
15
board plant.
16
Q.
When you joined the company in 1946 as a sales
17
trainee, who was sales manager at that time?
18
A.
I believe the man's name was Harkin, H-a-r-k-i-n.
19
I'm not certain. Or Harkins, H-a-r-k-i-n-s.
20
Q.
Do you know whether he's living or dead?
21
A.
I don't know.
22
Q.
And was Mr. Harkin or Harkins also the sales manager
23
during the years you were the assistant sales manager?
24
A.
Yes.
25
I did not report to him, though. We were
1
26
departmentalized, and I reported to a departmental sales
;
27
manager.
28
Q.
You were in the i n d u s t r i a l products department,
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
FvAM 601933 35 --
FLD 00 003103
73
1
correct?
2
A.
That is correct.
3
Q.
And so you would have reported to the manager of
4
the industrial products department?
5
A.
That's correct.
6
Q.
Who was that fellow?
{
7
A.
Robert Hodges.
I
8
Q.
As part of your responsibility as assistant sales
j
1
9
manager, you told us that you had selected industries
10
under your responsibility, specifically automotive, railroad
U
and certain governmental entities. Did that responsibility
12
include the sale of Flintkote products containing asbestos? j
13
A.
Yes, sir.
j
14
Q.
Floor tile?
j
15
A.
No, sir.
i
I
16
Q.
What Flintkote productscontaining asbestos did
j
i
17
you sell to your customers between the years '46 and '49?
j
18
A.
The industrial productsthat were manuactured
J
19
in the Vernon plant.
j
20
Q.
The roofing materials, for example?
j
21
A.
No, sir. Industrial products, which werereferred
j
22
to in some instance as liquid products.
23
Q.
Okay.
24
Is it correct, then, that the only asbestos-containing|
25
products that you had responsibility for selling to your
;
26
customers between '46 and '49 would have been the liquid
j
27
products?
'j
28
A.
Yes, sir.
I
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
74
1
Q.
What department within the sales department were the
2
floor tile products contained within?
3
A.
I can't recall specifically whether it was called
4
the Tiletex department or the flooring department at that
5
time. But they had their own sales manager.
6
Q.
Who was the sales manager of the floor tile depart
7
ment, regardless of its actual name?
8
A.
I'm not certain whether I'm correct or not. But
9
Angelo Gossman.
10
Q.
Angelo?
11
A.
Angelo. Angelo Gossman was, in that time span, the
12
sales manager.
13
Q.
And his last name, G-o-s-s-m-a-n?
14
A.
Yes.
15
Q.
Is he living or dead?
16
A.
I don't know whether he's alive or not.
!
17 Q. When did you last have any contact with him? I
18
A.
Two years ago.
19
Q.
Was he retired or employed at that time?
20
A.
Retired.
21
Q.
Where was heliving?
22
A.
The contact I had was through a subsidiary of The
23
Flintkote Company. And all I know is he was living in
24
Southern California. I don't know what town.
25
Q.
Would you have his address in your book?
I
26
A.
No, sir.
27
q.
When he was last employed, where was he employed?
C?tO
cn <.n
28
If you know.
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHANO REPORTERS
FFyiAPih r.r0.1n933
LU
UUUUO 1
75
1
A.
As -- To the best of my knowledge, the sales manager
2
for the Floor Tile Division for the West Coast.
3
Q.
During what years was he manager of the floor tile
4
operation? Best estimate.
5
A.
Sometime in the late '40's, until -- I'll have to
6
guess -- sometime in the '60's. Could have been late '50's.
7
Q.
Do you know who succeeded Mr. Gossman in the floor
8
tile department?
9
A.
Can't remember the man's name. Sorry, I can't give
10
you that man's name. I forget his name.
11
Q.
Who's in charge of the floor tile operation at
12
Vernon now?
13
A.
14
Q.
There is none. When was there last a floor tile operation at the
15
Vernon plant?
16
A.
I believe we closed the plant in '81.
17
Q.
Do you know who the manager of the floor tile
18
operation was at that time?
19
A.
Walter Glovack.
20
Q.
Could you spell the last name?
21
A.
G-l-o-v-a-c-k.
22
Q.
Is Mr. Glovack still employed by Flintkote?
23
A.
No.
24
Q.
Do you know where he is now?
25
A.
He's on medical leave, for whatever the proper
26
terminology is,
27
Q.
Is he living in SouthernCalifornia?
28
A.
Yes, sir.
CO CO
_______________________________________________ PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHANO REPORTERS
cuAM 601?
f id gggg
76
1
Q.
Do you know where?
2
A.
I'm not positive of the town. It's a suburb of
!
3
Los Angeles.
i 4
Q.
At the time that you were involved in the sales
:
5
in Los Angeles from '46 to '49, that time window, how
j
i
6
many sales representatives did the company have who had
7
selected responsibility for the sale of floor tile?
8
A.
I don't know.
9
Q.
How large was the sales department in Los Angeles
10
during that three-year period in total?
11
A.
It was departmentalized, and I can't answer. We
12
had several different departments.
I
13
Q.
Other than floor tile and industrial products,
.
14
what other departments were there in sales?
1
15
A.
Fold, cartons, corrugated boxes, roof sales,
i
i 16
Hollywood Box Division.
j
17
Q.
How many sales representatives were there in the
*
18
industrial products department during that two-year period? j
i
19
A.
I believe there were four of us.
20
Q.
! Comparing the size of your department and the size
21
of the other departments, was yours larger than the others
22
or smaller than the others or about the same, in terms of
23
staffing for sales purposes?
24
A.
I'd say we were smaller.
i
25
Q.
During the same period of time, Mr. Hooker, 1946
26
to 1949, was there a particular sales representative charged 1
27
with responsibility for sales to the United States
28
Government?
i n r-
('? CD
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED Sh ORTHANO REPORTERS
77
1
A.
Not to my knowledge.
2
Q.
Would that have been also broken down by product
3
categories, such as industrial products and otherwise?
4
A.
Yes, sir.
5
Q.
Do you know whether there was a sales representative
6
charged with the responsibility of sales to the United-
j
j 7
States Government for floor tile?
jj 8
A.
I don't know whether anybody was specifically assigned
9
or not.
10
Q.
At the time that we're speaking of, 1946 to 1949, were j
11
there certain house accounts or company accounts which were j
I
12
not really serviced by any other particular sales repre-
|
13
sentative?
;i
14
A.
I don't know for sure.
j 15
Q.
1 I think I neglected to ask you about the health of
i
16
Mr. Harkins. Do you know if he's still alive?
17
A.
I don't know.
i
18
Q.
When did you last have any contact with him?
19
A.
Personal contact was when 1 leftthe Pioneer
j
20
Division in 1962 was the last time I had any personal
j i
21
contact with him.
22
Q.
That's also the last time you ever spoke to him?
23
A.
Yes, sir.
24
Q.
At the time that you first joined the company from
25 '46 to '49, do you know what the distribution area was I
j 26
of the floor tile manufactured atVernon?
- i 27
A.
Eleven western states.
28
Q.
Do you know what the distribution pattern was o
CO CO
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHOflTHANO REPORTERS
78
1
the floor tile manufactured at Chicago Heights?
2
A.
I can only answer that question in a broad way.
3
Chicago Heights, New Orleans, which came on stream at
4
some point in time in the '40's, late '40's, early '50's,
5
that was our Eastern Division. Then there was an overlap
6
of the total eastern part of the United States for our
7
eastern floor tile operations.
8
Q.
I may have misunderstood. At the time that we're
9
speaking of in the '40's, there were two floor tile
10
manufacturing facilities; is that correct? Vernon and
11
Chicago Heights.
12
A.
1946, there were two.
13
Q.
I take it from your answer that at some point
i
I
14
New Orleans started manufacturing; is that correct?
15
A.
That is correct. But I don't know the exact date
16
it started.
17
Q.
But it was sometime in the late '40's?
18
A.
Or very early '50's.
19
Q.
And in the 1950's, let's take that ten-year period, |
20
were there floor tile manufacturing facilities other than
21
Vernon, Chicago Heights and New Orleans?
22
A.
Yes, sir.
23
Q.
Which others?
24
A.
Chillicothe, Ohio.
25
Q.
You're going to have to spell that one for the
26
reporter, if you can.
\
i
27
A.
Phonetically, C-h-i-1-1 --
28
Q.
Just like it sounds.
CO CO
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHANO REPORTERS
FvAM 01? F 0000
79
1
A.
Somebody else can guess at it as well as I can.
2
You'll find it in an atlas.
3
Q.
What's it near?
4
MR. JUDY:
A river.
5
THE WITNESS:
Dayton.
6
Chillicothe; East Rutherford, New Jersey; Watertown,
7
Massachusetts. That's it.
8
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. I have six.
9
A.
I believe that covers it.
10
Q.
Let's move forward to the '60's.
11
Can you name the manufacturing facilities of floor
12
tile that Flintkote had in the 1960's decade, if they're
13
different?
14
A.
At some point in time in the late '50's or early
15
'60`s, the East Rutherford facility shut down.
16
Q.
So then we would have in the '60's --
17
A.
Five.
18
Q.
-- five of them.
19
A.
Right.
20
Q.
How about for the 1970's, Mr. Hooker? Same question.
21
A.
Watertown shut down. And then Chillicothe shut down.
22
Q.
So that at some time in the '70's you were down to
23
three?
24
A.
Yes, sir.
25
Q.
And then in the '80's --
26
A.
We closed -- Well, in 1981, all were shut down.
27
Q.
You told us that the distribution pattern for
28
the Vernon plant in the '40's was limited to the eleven
CO CO
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES CERTifieoshorthand REPOflrens
fvam oi? FLD 0000
80
1
western states; is that correct?
2
A.
Yes, sir.
3
Q.
Was that true also in the 50 1s?
4
A.
Yes, sir.
i
5
Q.
And in the '60's?
!
1
6 A. Yes. i!
I
7
Q.
And in the '70 's?
i
8
A.
Yes, sir.
1 i
9
Q.
And for whatever period of time in the '80's?
11
i
10
A.
Yes, sir.
i
1
11
Q.
Would it be correct, Mr. Hooker, that for all of
>
12
the time that the Vernon plant was manufacturing floor tile, \ \
13
no floor tile from any other manufacturing facilities was
I
I
14
distributed to those eleven western states?
!
15
A. That is
not true.
j
16
Q.
17
A.
Can you describe how that wouldn't be true?
j
i
The Vernon plant did not make all of the floor tile j
18
lines that the company had, and we shipped from other
j
j
19
locations a floor tile line for distribution in the eleven
20
western states.
i
21
O.
With respect to those lines of floor tile tnar were ;
22
manufactured by Vernon, did they have an exclusive
}
23
distribution for the eleven western states?
24
A.
Ask that question again.
23
Q.
Sure.
! i
26
For those floor tile lines that were manufactured
27
by the Vernon facility, did theirproduct and theirproduct
j
. 1
28
alone get distributed to the eleven western states?
j
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
certified shorthand reporters
c ,,
f LV
60l93335
n n o o 3 lH ^ "
81
1
A.
To the best of my recollection, the answer is yes.
2
Q.
And would the flip side also be true, that for those
3
floor tile lines manufactured by Vernon, the same floor tile
4
lines manufactured by other facilities of the company in
5
other areas would not have come into those eleven western
6
states? Is that correct?
7
A.
We wouldn't have shipped a product from another
8
facility that we made in Vernon or into the eleven western
9
states. We would have -- If I understand your question
10
correctly --
11
Q.
I think you do.
12
A.
The same products manufactured at Vernon being
13
manufactured in the eastern part of the United States, we
14
would not have shipped products from those eastern -- those
15
same products into Vernon.
16
Q.
That is my question.
17
A.
Okay.
18
Q.
Of the floor tile line that the company had in the
19
'40's , did the Vernon facility manufacture all of that
20
line?
21
A.
No, sir.
22
Q.
How about in the '50's?
23
A.
No, sir.
24
Q.
'60' s?
25
A.
Never.
I
t
26
Q.
Okay. That's an easy answer.
27
Were there certain of these facilities that you
28
listed for us who produced particular lines of f l o o r tile
rocn
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
FvAM 6019333
FLD 0000311
82
1
for the company that were not produced at other plants,
2
for example?
3
A.
Yes, sir.
j
i 4
Q.
Can you categorize for us the floor tile lines in
I
5
some fashion?
j
6
A.
I Only by virtue of the difference in the manufacturing i
!
7
process. And we did not duplicate all of the manufacturing !
i
8
facilities throughout the United States. And that's why we
9
would move product from the East into this western market,
10
because we didn't have the equipment to make that particular !
I
11
type of floor tile in the West.
j
12
Q.
What distinguishing features between the floor lines j
13
are there by manufacturing process?
14
A.
An example is a special type of laminated tile that
j
15
we used to make in the East and did not make in the West.
!
16
Q.
Any other examples?
17
A.
There were certain embossed tiles that we produced
j
18
in the East.
19
Q.
Those, again, would have been specialty items?
j i
20
A.
Special in design primarily.
21
Q.
Any others, other than the laminated an embossed
22
tiles?
23
A.
At one point in time, cove base, which was an adjunct l
24
to floor tile. The black strip in this room. We made
]
25
cove base.
26
MR. SCHROETER:
! That's an incompetent opinion,
27
Mr. Hooker. You don't know that this black stuff was made
28
by Flintkote.
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
o0i'?33i^
'fLO
0 0 0 0 3 1 R
84
1
Q.
But not by --
2
A.
And then those divisions were broken down in any wav
3
they wanted to.
4
Q.
So basically, total sales were reported to Flintkote
5
by division, correct? Talking about the '40's, now.
6
A.
I'in not specific. I was not in the accounting
1
department. I cannot answer exactly how those things were
8
handled.
9
Q.
Were you aware that in the '40's, individual sales
10
information by product group was maintained by the company?
11
A.
I know that the industrial products department had
12
its own accounting records maintained.
13
Q.
Do you know if the floor tile department also had
14
such records?
15
A.
Not specifically, because I was not involved in
16
keeping those records.
17
Q.
Were you aware in the '40's that there was ever
18
a comparison made of the relative sales of floor tile and
19
industrial products in any other department?
20
A.
Not to my knowledge.
21
Q.
Do you have any estimate of what the sales of
22
floor tile were from the Pioneer Division for any of the
23
years between '46 and '49?
24
MR. SCHROETER:
Objection. Don't answer that.
25
Vague. You mean quantitatively in squares?
26
MR. SILBERFELD:
Dollars.
27
MR. SCHROETER:
As to dollars, don't answer
28
that. That's not relevant. Won't lead to the discovery
cni.o
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
FvAM" 019333
pLD 000 031 1
85
1
of admissible evidence.
2
MR. SILBERFELD:
Really?
3
MR. SCHROETER:
Really.
4
MR. GRELL:
You're instructing
thewitness
5
not to answer?
6
MR. SCHROETER:
Anytime I say irrelevant,
7
I mean what I just said.
\
8
Yes, I'm telling you not to answer any questions that j
I
9
ask for dollar sales totals or dollar sales items.
|
10
Quantitative, quantities of products, yes. That's
|
j
11
something else. Where and how much of the stuff was sold
I
12 to whom and when, be my guest. }
13
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. Do you have any estimate
14
for us, Mr. Hooker, by unit of sales, rather than dollars
I
15
of sales, of the sales of floor tile for any years from '46 |
i
16
to '49?
17
A.
No, sir.
18
Q.
Do you know if such records are in existence at
19
the present time?
20
A.
I don't know.
21
Q.
Do you know who the major competitor or competitors
22
of Flintkote were in the eleven western states in the
23
floor tile products in the period 1946 to 1949?
24
A.
I would be speculating as to what companies had
j
i
25
plants in operation at that time. I was not involved in
j
l
26
floor tile sales. I do not know what our competition was
!
27
at that time.
28
Q.
Well, have you learned since that time who the major
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHANO REPORTERS
FyAM 601?3335 FLD 00003116
86
1
competitors were at that time?
2
A.
At that time, again, I don't know how to define it
3
by date.
4
Q.
Do you know who the major competitors of Flintkote
5
were in floor tile during anytime in the '50's and '60's?
6
Let's use that twenty year window.
7
Q.
Yes, sir.
8
Q.'
Can you refine that down anymore from twenty years
9
to maybe ten?
10
A.
No. I don't know when their plants were in operation.
11
Q.
All right. And with regard to the decades of the
!
12
'50's and '60's, who were the major competitors to Flintkote j
13
in floor tile?
!
14
A.
Armstrong, Johns-Manville, Ruberoid, Kentile.
j
15
Q.
16
A.
I'm sorry? Kentile.
17
MR. JAMESMILLER:
May I have that again?
18
THE WITNESS:
Kentile, K-e-n-t-i-l-e.
19
May I ask, are we talking manufacturers in the
20
West or sales in the West now?
21
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. Good distinction. Sales
22
in the West.
23
A.
Azrock, A-z-r-o-c-k, which also had the name of
24
Uvalde at one time, U-v-a-l-d-e. It's the same company
25
that --
26
Q.
So I have J-M,Armstrong, Ruberoid,Kentile, Azrock
27
slash Uvalde.
28
A.
Yeah. Those are the only names I can remember.
"jcn
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED Sh ORTHANO r e p o r t e r s
f T am I oT T sI I
FID 000031 1
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1
Q.
And then, of course, Flintkote.
2
A.
Yes.
3
MR. JUDY:
j
i
As a competitor with itself.
j
4
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. Did J-M have a manufacturing I
5
facility in the Western United States during the '50's and j
6
'60's for floor tile?
j
7
A.
To the best of my recollection, they did. I'm not
!
8
positive of that.
9
Q.
Did Armstrong?
10
A.
11
Q.
12
A.
Yes. Where was it located? If you know. In the greater Los Angeles area.
13
Q.
14
A.
Did Ruberoid? Yes. Long Beach.
15
Q.
Did Kentile?
16
A.
I believe they had a plant in the San Francisco Bay
17
region . I'm not positive of that.
18
Q.
Did Azrock have a manufacturing facility?
19
A.
They were in Texas.
20
Q.
For any of the years in the 1950's and 1960's,
21
Mr. Hooker, are you able to rank these six manufacturers
22
that we have here for floor tile by either total unit sales
23
or dollar sales?
24
A.
No, sir.
25
Q.
Do you have any estimate for us whatsoever of the
26
ranking of Flintkote in comparison to the others for any
27
of the years in the '50's and '60's?
28
MR. SCHROETER:
With respect to what parameter?
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHOPTHANO REPORTERS
0193335 -
fiO 0 0 3 1 I S
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1
MR. SILBERFELD:
Units.
2
THE WITNESS:
I can only say, a minor
3
position.
4
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. What's that based on?
5
A.
With our one plant, minor and overall market.
6
Q.
Did the other companies you mentioned have multiple
7
plants in the Western United States?
8
A.
I do not know.
9
MR. JUDY:
It's 12:05.
10
MR. SILBERFELD:
Let's go off the record for a
11
second.
12
(Whereupon, there was a lunch recess taken at
13
12:05 o'clock p.m., and the deposition resumed at 1:20
14
o 'clock p.m.)
15
MR. SILBERFELD:
Let's go back on the record.
16
Let us identify for the record as Exhibit 2 to the
17
deposition the document which had been previously identified
18
as Exhibit A to certain answers to interrogatories. It
19
consists of eight pages and is entitled "Flintkote Asbestos
20
Industrial Products." It bears a date of 7/27/83, and the
21
last page bears a title of "Additional Asbestos Products
22
Once Manufactured By Flintkote," and that's a single page
23
bearing the date of 8/3/83.
24
(WHEREUPON, A PHOTOCOPY OF A
SEVEN-PAGE DOCUMENT ENTITLED
25
"FLINTKOTE ASBESTOS INDUSTRIAL
PRODUCTS," DATED 7/27/83, AND
26
A PHOTOCOPY OF A ONE-PAGE DOCUMENT
ENTITLED "ADDITIONAL ASBESTOS
27
PRODUCTS ONCE MANUFACTURED BY
FLINTKOTE," DATED 8/3/83, WERE
28
MARKED AS PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 2
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED Sh ORTHANO REPORTERS
89
FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. Mr. Hooker, during the
period 1949 to 1952, what did you actually do in terms of
priority price controls in the war effort? job?
What was your
A.
To prepare a manual for the Pioneer Division of The
Flintkote Company to be used by all people at management
level. In the case of priorities, to show them how to get
priority status for the purchase of materials for construction
projects. And in the case of price controls, what regula
tions they had to observe, how to price their products in
accordance with federal regulations. All in accordance with
federal regulations.
The other aspect of my job at that time was to serve
on the Production Authority Forest Products Committee
in Washington, D.C., which met about every sixty days.
And I served to represent the West Coast pulp and paper
producers and consumers, as well.
Q.
In this role as administration assistant, Pioneer
Division, did you have supervisory function over the product
lines of the company --
A.
No.
Q.
-- any particular product line?
A.
No, sir.
This position being priority and price control?
Q.
Yes.
A.
I had no directresponsibility.
0.
in the years that you were in the supervisory
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
fooos^o
'
90 itrol the
ie of 52? hich sales
5, you at of the
:o directly [ 1 j
purchasing. | i
; four-year
I was i
CtiiH A
rr 1luf; 0
91
1
Q.
And was it part of your responsibility at that time
2
to acquire raw materials for the Pioneer Division for the
3
various products made by that division?
4
A.
Yes, sir.
5
Q.
Did that include asbestos products?
6
A.
Yes, sir.
7
Q.
During those years, did you acquire, by contract,
8
raw asbestos materials for the division from various
9
parties?
i
I
10
A.
Not by contract.
11
Q.
How was that done?
12
A.
Open purchase orders.
13
Q.
During the period 1952 to 1956, did the Pioneer
I
14 Division purchase raw asbestos material from Flintkote !
15
Mines?
i
16
A.
17
Q.
18
A.
Yes, sir. Anyone else? The latest time span being '56, are we talkingabout
' it
j t j
19
now?
! i
l
20
Q.
Yes, sir.
j
21
A.
Atlas Asbestos, Pacific Asbestos. Best of my
22
knowledge -- memory, that's it.
23
Q.
Do you know the type of asbestos that was provided
24
to you by Atlas?
j
25
A.
It was all classified as chrysotile.
j
26
Q.
From Flintkote, as well as the others?
J
j
27
A.
Yes, sir.
" j
28
Q.
During those years, did you ever personally see
j
mcoccoo
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED Sh ORTHANO REPORTERS
C,,M 0 !? 3 3
11 M i S U O L
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1
any packages of the raw asbestos being delivered to any of
2
the Pioneer Division facilities?
I
I
3
A.
Yes, sir.
4
Q.
During your observation of that, did you ever see
5
whether any of those deliveries in the course of being
6
loaded or unloaded created dust?
|
7
A.
No, sir.
j
i
8
Q.
When you saw these deliveries of raw asbestos,
9
how was the asbestos packaged?
10
A.
In either 80 or 100 pound bags.
(
11
Q.
What were the bags made of, sir?
12
A.
Some burlap, some paper.
j
13
Q.
Did the bags have any identifying marks on them
|
i
14
which would distinguish them as being from either the
j
15
Flintkote Mines or Atlas or Pacific or anyone else?
j1
ji
16
A.
Yes, sir.
i
17
Q.
What would the bags have on them?
j
18
A.
Identification of the mine and producer.
!
19
Q.
During that four-year period from '52 to '56, can
20
you give us any estimate of the percentage of asbestos that
21
was purchased for the Pioneer Division from the three
i
22
producers?
23
A.
I do not have a specific answer. The majority came
24
from Flintkote Mines.
j
25
Q.
Is the majority more than 50 percent,in your
j
26
mind?
27
A.
Yes, sir.
28
Q.
Greater than 75 percent?
OO CO
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
93
1
A.
I can't answer that question.
2
Q.
During the years that you were the assistant director j
3
of purchasing, did you ever see any manufacturing operation
4
where raw asbestos was being used?
5
A.
Yes, sir.
I
6
Q.
Can you give me an example of. what you observed?
7
A.
The liquid products plant, asbestos fiber was being
8
used. The baas were opened and the contents put in mixing i I
I
9
equipment.
j
10
In the floor tile plant, the same thing.
\
|
11
Q.
Had you observed any of the operations of the liquid |
12
products plant during the late '40's and early '50's?
J
13
A.
Yes, sir.
14
Q.
And the floor tile plant --
15
A.
Yes.
j
16
Q.
-- had you seen the operation there, as well?
j l
17
A.
Yes, sir.
!
I
18
Q.
Basically the same type of operation, bags opened
19
and put into mixing equipment of some kind?
20
A.
Yes, sir.
21
Q.
In the liquid products plant, for any of the years
22
from '46 to '56, that ten-year period, was the operation
23
in an enclosed building or an open air building?
24
A.
Enclosed building.
25
Q.
And was the floor tile plant in an enclosed building ;
i
26
or in an open air building?
27
A.
In a closed building.
28
Q.
Do you know what type, if any, ventilation equipment
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED s h o r t h a n d r e p o r t e r s
FyAM 60193335
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1
for the ambient atmosphere was in existence in the liquid
2
products plant?
j
5
A.
There was dust control equipment, is the only way
4
I can describe it.
5
Q.
Nothing morespecific than that?
!
6
A.
No, sir.
|
7
Q.
Do you know whether it was dust control equipment
8
at the point of operation as distinguished from in the
i
9
entire building?
j
j 10
A.
I can't answer -- Yes, Icananswer it in this way:
;
i
11
Dust control equipment at the point of operation. I do not
12
know whether there was any, as far as the total building
!
t
13 was concerned * !
14
Q.
During this ten-year period, say, from '46 to '56,
15
in observing the observations of the liquid products plant
i
16
that involved the use of raw asbestos, did you see whether '
il
17
that operation produced any visible dust at any stage?
18
A.
I don't recall seeing any visible dust.
|
i
19
Q.
In observing the operations of the floor tile
20
manufacturing plant, did you see that the operation produced
i
21
any visible dust?
I
I
22
A.
No.
|
23
Q.
Do you know what type of point of operation ventila- j
24
tion or dust collection equipment was being used in
j
25
the liquid products plant?
j
26
A.
No, sir.
I
27
Q.
Do you know what type ofdust collectionequipment
j
I
28
was being used in the floor tile plant?
j
-------------- .---- ---------------------------- FvAM uiySSoi J
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
fld oooo. ws
c e r t if ie d s h o r t h a n d r e p o r t e r s
95
1
A.
No, sir.
2
Q.
Was there a person at Flintkote at the Pioneer
3
Division between the period of '46 to '56 who was charged
4
with the responsibility of these dust control measures?
5
A.
Yes.
6
Q.
Who would that have been, by title?
7
A.
The manufacturing manager.
8
Q.
I don't know whether you've identified him or not.
9
I don't think I've asked you that. If I have, I apologize
10
for asking it again. Who was the manufacturing manager
11
for any of the time between '46 and '56?
12
A.
The only man I remember was Bill Birdsey,
13
B-i-r-d-s-e-y.
14
Q.
"P," as in Paul?
15
A.
"B," as in Birdsey. William Birdsey.
16
Q.
B-i-r-d --
17
18
O.
Thank you, sir.
19
Is Mr. Birdsey still living?
20
A.
I don't know.
21
Q.
When did you last have contact with him?
22
A.
About four years ago.
23
Q.
Do you have his address in your phone book?
24
A.
No, I do not.
;
II
25
Q.
When you last had contact with him, where was he
j
26
residing?
27
A.
Someplace in the Bay Area.
CO CO
28
Q.
Was he employed at that time?
____________________________________ __________ _-- _____ ______
FuAM 0 i 9 FID 0000
PATRICIA CALLAHAN $ ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
96
1
A.
I don't know whether he was or not. He was a
2
consultant at that time. But --
3
Q.
Self-employed or with a consulting firm?
4
A.
No, self-employed.
5
Q.
In addition to a manufacturingmanager, were there
j
6
also manufacturing managers for each of the product lines?
7
A.
Reporting to Mr. Birdsey?
\
8
Q.
Yes.
9
Do you knowwho the manufacturing manager for the
i
10
floor tile was during any of this time?
|
11
A.
George Paul
Heppes.
12
MR. JAMES MILLER:
Could you spell that last
j
j
13
name, please?
j
14
THE WITNESS:
H-e-p-p-e-s.
!
15
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. Is Mr. Heppes still living? j
16
A.
Yes, sir.
17
Q.
Do you know where?
18
A.
Someplace in Oregon. I do not recall the name of
19
the town.
20
O.
Do you know if he's stillemployed?
21
A.
To the best of my knowledge, he is not employed by
22
anybody.
23
Q.
Do you know who the manufacturing manager was of
24
the liquid products plant during any of this period of
25
time?
26
A.
Red -- I know his first name -- Red Abercrombie.
- i
27
Q.
Do you know if Mr. Abercrombie is still living?
28
A.
I do not.
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
FyfiM iiy FLO 0000 1 j
ro co
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1
Q.
When did you last have contact with him?
2
A.
1962.
3
Q.
During any of your visits to the liquid products
4
plant where you saw the manufacturing operation going on,
5
did you observe whether the workers there were wearing
6
face protection of any kind or breathing protection of any. j
7
kind?
j
i
8
A.
I don't recall.
j
9
Q.
Again, we're talking about the period of '46 to '56. j
10
A.
(Witness nods head in an affirmative manner.)
!
I
11
That's my problem.
j
t
12
MR. SCKROETER:
When you say you don't recall, j
13
you mean maybe they were, maybe not: you don't know?
j
14
THE WITNESS:
I don't know.
!l|
15
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. Same question, Mr. Hooker,
1
i
16
with regard to the floor tilemanufacturing that you
j I
17
observed. Any recollection about whether the workers there i
18
were wearing any face protection?
I
i
19
A.
Whether they were or not, I have no recollection.
!
20
Q.
Moving forward in time to the period 1956 to '62
j
21
when you became director of purchasing, did you, during
22
that six-year period, observe the manufacturing process
23
in any of the plants that had to do with asbestos?
I
24
A.
Yes.
j
25
Q.
With respect to that, did you observe whether any
i
26
of the operations grew any dust?
. '
i
27
A.
Not that I recall.
j
28
Q.
Did you, at that time,observe any workers wearing
i
_________________________________ j
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED s h o r t h a n d r e p o r t e r s
6019333
0 0 0 033 2
98
1
respirators or breathing apparatuses?
2
A.
Again, I do not recall either way.
3
Q.
During any of your time in your career withFlintkote,
4
do you recall ever seeing workers employed at plants of the
5
company wearing respirators or face protection of some type?
6
A.
Yes, sir.
7
Q.
When is your first specific recollection of it?
i
8
A.
Chicago Heights floor tile plant in 1974.
9
Q.
At that time, was the Chicago Heights floor tile plant
10
using asbestos in its operation?
!
i
11
A.
Yes, sir.
12
Q.
During the time that you were director of purchasing
j 13
from '56 to '62, who was the manufacturing manager at
!
14
the Pioneer Division?
j
15
A.
To the best of my recollection, it was still
j
i
16
Mr. Birdsey.
j
17 Q. Do you know how long he served the company in that ij
18
caDacity?
I I
19
A.
I tried to reconstruct this before. At the same
j
i
20
time with Mr. -- Heleft the company at the same time
j
21
Mr. Harvey became the general manager.
22
Q.
I think you told us Mr. Harvey became the manager
j 23
in '58.
|
24
A.
Okay.
25
Q.
So would it be correct that Mr. Birdsey served as
j
26
manufacturing manager until approximately '58?
27
A.
'58 or '59.
28
Q.
Do you know who succeeded him?
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
~ r t-Vv
99
1
A.
M. L. Johnson.
2
Q.
Is Mr. Johnson still living, to your knowledge?
3
A.
Yes.
4
0.
Do you know where?
5
A.
Beverly Hills.
i1
i
6
Q.
Do you have his address?
!
1
7
A.
No.
8
Q-
Is he still employed?
1
9
A.
No.
1
i1
10
Q.
Do you know what the "M" or the "L" stands for?
11
A.
Murdock.
12
MR. KEMALYAN:
13
MR. SILBERFELD:
14
I 'll do the jokes.
15
MR. JUDY:
16
MR. SILBERFELD:
i
That's the "M. H
|
!
Is that the "M"? Thank you.
i
No comment.
I
Q. During the period '56 to
|
17
'62, can you tell us who the floor tile manufacturing
18
manager was?
19
A.
I cannot remember his name.
20
Q.
Who was the manager of the liquid products manufac
21
turing plant during that period?
22
A.
I'm not positive about the date, but John Flanigan
23
late in that period.
24
Q.
Is Mr. Flanigan still living, as far as you know?
25
A.
Yes.
26
n.
Do you know where?
27
A.
I do not, other than Southern California.
28
Q.
Do you know who he's employed by?
CO c o
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
c.,6M 601933 flo QGGGSI
100
1
A.
No, I don't know.
2
Q.
At some point in time, did the Pioneer Division
3
develop any rules or regulations that required the wearing
4
of breathing protection by workers involved in the use of
5
asbestos in the manufacturing process?
6
A.
Only in accordance with federal regulations.
7
Q.
By that, do you mean that whenever it was that the
8
federal regulation was promulgated, it was then adopted by
9
Flintkote?
10
A.
Yes, sir. And I'm speaking to that question as to
11
what I know the company did.
12
Q.
Sure.
13
During any of the time that you were the director
14
of purchasing from '56 to '62, did you participate in the
15
discussions with any of the other management level people
16
at the Pioneer Division about the advisability of having
17
workers wear breathing protection of some type?
18
A.
No.
19
Q.
As far as you know, no such discussions took place?
20
A.
Would you ask that question again?
21
Q.
Sure.
22
As far as you know, during that period of time,
23
no such discussions about the advisability of wearing
24
breathing protection took place within the Pioneer Division
25
at the management level?
26
A.
It's a negative question. I'm sorry. I think
27
you're asking me to indict my company.
28
They met the regulations. As far as I know,
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIEO SHORTHANO REPORTERS
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01*3335
riL j
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1
throughout my life with the Flintkote Company they observed
2
regulations as they were promulgated.
3
Q.
Let me pose the question to you in this way: Are
4
you aware of any discussions that took place during the
5
years that you were the director of purchasing that
6
suggested a voluntary adoption of rules requiring the
7
wearing of respirators?
8
A.
No, sir.
9
Q.
Do you know when it was that the federal rule was
10
promulgated about the use of respirators?
11
A.
Specifically about respirators, no.
12
Q.
Can you give it to me by decade? The '50's, the
13
'60 1s , the '70's?
14
A.
I don't know.
15
Q.
You say specifically about respirators. Do you
16
have some knowledge about federal rules being promulgated
17
about asbestos?
18
A.
Yes, sir.
19
0.
What's your first knowledge about that?
20
A.
1972.
21
Q.
What happened?
22
A.
When OSHA issued theirregulationsconcerning
23
asbestos fiber.
24
Q.
What's your best understanding ofwhat those
25
regulations required at that time?
26
A.
That the worker in the plant be protected against
27
maximum limit exposures to asbestos fiber as defined by
28
the regulation.
ro c.n
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHANO REPORTERS
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1
Q.
Prior to 1972, had you learned -- now, this is
2
Mr. Hooker personally, not Flintkote -- had you, Mr. Hooker,
3
learned of any concern about the health effects of exposure
4
to asbestos?
5
A.
Yes, sir.
6
Q.
When did you personally first learn that?
j
7
A.
In 1969.
I
I
8
Q.
And how did you acquire that knowledge?
!
i
9
A.
Through my activities with Flintkote Mines, Limited. j
10
Q.
Specifically, what about your activities with
11
Flintkote Mines gave you this awareness or understanding?
12
A.
Through attending the QuebecAsbestos Mining
j
13
Association meetings.
j
14
Q.
Were you Flintkote Mines' representative to QAMA?
j
15
A.
An alternate representative.
j
j 16
Q.
And you attended meetings of thatassociation?
i
17
A.
Yes, sir.
18
Q.
Do you recall any of the soecifics concerning what !
19
you learned in 1969 about health hazards associated with
!
20
asbestos exposure?
21
A.
Very general overview of the work that QAMA was
22
sponsoring in Canada and studies that were being made
23
concerning asbestos fiber exposure.
24
Q.
In connection with the health risk of asbestos
i
25
exposure, what class of worker or class of person was
j
26
at risk, as far as you understood it when you first heard
|
27
about this in 1969?
28
A.
The people working in our mine and mill, asbestos
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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1
mill. The laborers working in our mine and asbestos mill
2
in Canada.
3
Q.
The mine workers would be those persons who took
4
the raw material out of the ground?
5
A.
Yes, sir.
6
Q.
And what would the millworkers be?
7
A.
Taking the ore and grinding itand processing it
8
and screening and bagging it.
9
Q.
Would the work of the mill workers be done in an
10
enclosed factory or shop of some kind?
11
A.
Yes, sir.
12
Q.
And the mine workers' work is outdoors; is that
13
correct?
14
A.
Open pit mine.
15
Q.
When you first learned about this health risk for
16
the mine workers and the mill workers, what suggestions
17
were made to control the risk, as far as you know?
18
MR. SCHROETER:
Suggestions by whom?
19
MR. SILBERFELD:
By whoever it is that
20
Mr. Hooker learned this from at these QAMA meetings.
21
THE WITNESS:
I was never -- Or I don't
22
remember specifically seeing any recommendations of
23
health -- "aids" is the wrong word -- I'm sorry. The
24
work I am familiar with is the work as relates to the
25
studies.
26
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. So your best memory is
27
that you learned of the health risks associated with
28
asbestos exposure, but you don't have a memory of the
_______________________________________________________________ _ PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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1
date, at least, of learning about the control measures
2
or anything like that?
3
A.
No, sir.
4
Q.
Did anyone else from Flintkote or Flintkote Mines
5
attend any of these QAMA meetings withyou?
6
A.
Yes, sir.
7
Q.
Who?
8
A.
Dalna Poirier, P-o-i-r-i-e-r. He was the mine manager. |
9
Q.
Anyone else?
!
i
10
A.
Monty Carpenter.
11
Q.
What was Mr. Carpenter'sposition at the time?
12
A.
He was the vice president of Flintkote.
j
j 13
Q.
At some point in time, did Mr. Carpenter become
;
i
14
president of Flintkote?
15
A.
Yes, sir.
j
16
Q.
When was that, approximately?
j
i
17
A.
1981, approximately.
i
i
i 18
O.
Anyone other than Mr. Poirier -- if I'mpronouncinc i
19
that right -- and Mr. Carpenter?
j
20
A.
I don't recall anyone else in my company during
!
i 21
that time sDan.
22
Q.
Yes, during this initial time when you learned
23
about this.
24
A.
Yes.
25
Q.
Now switching from what Mr. Hooker knewpersonally
|
26
when he first learned it to what your understanding is of
i 27
what your company knew or understood at various points in
i
28
time -- we're shifting gears now -- to your knowledge, when j
oj o;
c.n cjri
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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1
did Flintkote first learn of any alleged health effects
2
associated with asbestos exposure?
3
MR. SCHROETER:
Don't answer that. That's
4
not answerable, and I have to object to it as vague, because
5
Flintkote is a collection of people, not an entity of its
6
own.
7
MR. SILBERFELD:
Well, I'm talking about
8
collection of people.
9
MR. SCHROETER:
Collections of people don't
10
know things. Individuals do. So I instruct him not to
11
answer that.
12
Don't answer that question.
13
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. Mr. Hooker, as far as you
14
know, when was the first time that any person employed by
15
Flintkote, other than you, learned of the health effects
16
associated with asbestos exposure?
17
A.
I don't know the answer to that.
18
Q.
Have you, since 1969 when you first learned about
19
the health effects, talked to any other person employed by
20
Flintkote about the health effects of asbestos exposure?
21
A.
Since 1969?
22
Q.
Yes.
23
A.
Yes, sir.
24
Q.
And since 1969 up to the present, have you attempted
25
to determine when it was that any employee of Flintkote
26
first learned about the health effects associated with
27
asbestos exposure?
28
A.
No, sir.
\n -o
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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1
Q.
You never tried to find that out?
2
A.
No, sir.
3
Q.
As far as you know, are you the first one at
4
Flintkote ever to learn about the health effects of asbestos
5
exposure, back in 1969?
6
A.
Ask the question again.
7
Q.
Sure.
I
8
From everything you've been able to discovery up
9
to the present, were you the first employee of Flintkote
10
to learn about the health effects of asbestos exposure in
i
11
1969 when you learned about it?
|
i1
i 12
A.
No, sir.
|
13
O.
Do you have any information to indicate that anyone j
14
at Flintkote knew about the health effects associated with j
j 15 asbestos exposure before 1969? l
16
A.
Those parties associated withour mine --
J
17
Again, would you define Flintkote? I'm in trouble
18
here again.
19
Q.
Okay. If you don't understand the question or any
20
part of it, tell me so, and I'll try to help.
j
21
A.
Definition.
22
Q.
You're having trouble of what I use asFlintkote?
23
A.
Yes.
i
24
Q.
Let me try to define it in thisway: Either the
25
parent company, any subsidiary or any division of it,
26
American or otherwise.
27
A.
All right.
28
Q.
All right?
co co
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1
A-
Okay.
2
Q.
I think I've covered Flintkote in the world. And
3
if I haven't, I mean to include Flintkote in the whole
4
world.
5
With respect to that definition of Flintkote now,
6
do you have any information to indicate that any employee
7
of Flintkote knew or had reason to know of the health
8
effects of asbestos exposure before 1969 when you first
9
learned of it?
10
MR. SCHROETER:
Objection. Vague. Do you
11
mean does he have any information that tells him whether
12
or not anyone else within that defined group knew of such
13
effects?
14
MR. SILBERFELD:
Yes.
15
THE WITNESS:
I have nothing in my files.
16
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. Do you have any memory
17
of it?
18
A.
Yes.
19
Q.
What is your memory?
20
A.
The best way to describe it, my predecessor.
21
Q.
Tell me about that. Who was your predecessor?
22
A.
James Main.
23
Q.
And what did Mr. Main know, as far as you know,
24
about the health effects of asbestos exposure?
25
MR. SCHROETER:
You're not to speculate on
26
what somebody else knew. You are to say only what you
27
know what from he told you he knew. Guesswork, no.
28
THE WITNESS:
He told me --
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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1
MR. SILBERFELD:
I'm sorry?
2
MR. SCHROETER:
Go ahead.
3
THE WITNESS:
I was justinstructed to
4
respond as to what Mr. Main told me he knew. He told me
5
nothing.
6
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. Do you have an impression
7
in your mind that Mr. Main had some knowledge concerning
8
the health effects of asbestos exposure?
9
MR. SCHROETER:
Objection. That calls for
10
speculation. Impressions in the mind of what somebody
11
knew who wasn't talking about it calls for speculation.
12
MR. SILBERFELD:
No. I'm asking forthe
13
witness' impression in his own mind, based upon what
14
someone else may have said to him. That doesn't call for
15
speculation. That calls for what's in his mind. If he
16
has no such impression, he can tell us that. If he does,
17
he should tell us that.
18
THE WITNESS:
He attended QAMA meetings.
19
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. All right. And what do
20
you deduce from that, if anything?
21
A.
The studies that I became familiar with were
22
started before I attended the meetings.
23
Q.
Mr. Main was your predecessor as a sales manager
24
for Flintkote Mines, correct?
25
A.
26
Q.
Yes, sir. And in that capacity, he attended the QAMA meetings,
27
as far as you know --
28
A.
Yes, sir.
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1
Q.
-- as the company representative,
2
A.
To the best of my knowledge.
3
Q.
When you first started going there in 1969, you
4
became aware of the studies that you've described to us.
5
A.
Yes, sir.
6
Q.
And the studies, at least by date, preceded the
7
year 1969; is that correct?
8
A.
Yes, sir.
9
Q.
Do you know what year they were?
10
A.
I do not know the dates they were started.
11
Q.
Do you know whether they were in the '60's?
12
A.
I do not know specifically when they were started.
13
Q.
Do you know whether they were studies of mining and
14
milling operations in the Quebec area?
15
A.
Yes, sir.
16
Q.
Do you know whether they were published anywhere
17
or only used for QAMA purposes?
18
A.
I do not know what publication was made of them.
19
MR. SCHROETER;
For clarification, Roman --
20
MR. SILBERFELD:
Sure.
21
MR. SCHROETER:
-- do you know whether or not
22
any of those QAMA sponsored studies of asbestos effects
23
were ever discussed in QAMA meetings held before you first
24
attended them?
25
THE WITNESS:
I do not know for a fact
26
that they were.
27
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. Since 1969, have you and
28
Mr. Main ever discussed when the two of you first learned
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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1
about the health effects of asbestos exposure?
2
A.
No, sir.
3
Q.
Have you talked to Mr. Main on any subject in the
4
last year?
5
A.
Yes, sir.
6
Q.
Have you talked to Mr. Main in the last year about
7
the asbestos litigation?
!
8
A.
Questionsassociated with abestos litigation, yes,
9
sir.
I
10
Q.
What nature of questions?
!
11
A.
As I recall, theyweremarketingquestions.
12
Q.
During any of your recent -- this is within the
J
13
last twelve months -- conversations with Mr. Main, did you
14
discuss with him when he first learned of the health effects j
|
15
associated with asbestos exposure?
j
16
A.
No, sir.
|
17
Q.
Did the QAMA keep minutes of those meetings, as
18
far as you know?
19
A.
20
Q.
Yes, sir. Did you, as the Flintkote Mines representative at
21
those meetings, receive minutes of the meetings?
22
A.
Yes, sir.
23
Q.
Did you, after 1969, obviously, get copies of any
24
of these studies or articles sent to you?
25
A.
26
Q.
Yes, sir. And when you would receive the minutes of the QAMA
27
meetings, did you review them?
28
A.
As a general rule, no.
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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1
Q.
Did you file them away somewhere?
2
A.
They were filed.
3
Q.
in the trash can or filedaway?
4
A.
They were filed, appropriate file.
5
Q.
A QAMA file?
6
A.
It would have been so designated, yes.
7
Q.
Was it part of your habit and custom existing at
8
that time to circulate information such as OAMA minutes to
9
anyone else within your department or your office?
10
A.
No, sir.
11
Q.
Was it part of your habit and custom at that tine
12
to circulate any of the medical studies or the workers'
13
studies to anyoneelse?
14
A.
No, sir.
15
Q.
At anytime after first learning of the health
16 effects of asbestos exposure in 1969, did you communicate !
17
that knowledge to anyone else at Flintkote Mines who
|
!
18
wasn't present with you?
j
i
19
A.
No, sir.
i
i
20
Q.
At anytime after 1969, did you personally communicate j
21
what you had learned about the health effects of asbestos
j
22
to anyone at any of the operating divisons of Flintkote?
j
23
A.
No, sir.
24
Q.
At some point in time, Mr. Hooker, did you personally
25
become concerned about the possible health effects on the
26
workers in your manufacturing plants --
27
A.
No, sir.
28
Q.
-- from exposure toasbestos?
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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112
1
A.
it was not my responsibility.
2
Q.
After 1969, whose responsibility would that have
3
been, sir?
4
MR. SCHROETER:
Don't answer that. Objection,
5
in that it's vague, because the term "responsibility"
6
isn't defined. You mean responsibility within the
7
guidelines that governs the company from within? Otherwise,
8
that calls for --
9
MR. JAMES MILLER:
I think the witness just
10
used that word, Mr. Schroeter.
11
MR. SCHROETER:
That doesn't change the fact.
i
12
I want to know what Counsel means.
|
13
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. Mr. Hooker, what do you
j
14
mean by not your responsibility?
|
}
i 15
A.
I was sales manager. And the sales manager was
j
16
not responsible for the operation of our plants.
j
i
17
Q.
In a corporate responsibility. Is that what you
18
mean?
19
A.
That is correct.
20
Q.
And in that same sense, whowas responsible for
21
considerations of health and safety?
22
A.
I'm not positive, but we had a safety -- corporate
23
safety direction or department.
24
Q.
Do you know who headed up that department at
25
anytime?
26
A.
Most recently -- We're talking aboutFlintkote
27
overall?
28
Q.
Yes, sir.
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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1
A.
John Schmitt is the most recent.
2
Q.
S-c-h-m-i-d-t?
3
A.
S-c-h-m-i-t-t.
4
Q.
Is Mr. Schmitt still with what is now Genstar?
j
5
A.
He's.with Genstar.
|
[
6
Q.
Where?
!
7
A.
In New Jersey.
i
8
Q.
Who preceded Mr. Schmitt?
i
9
A.
Sy Weiss.
!
i 10
Q.
Do you know where Mr. Weiss is at this time?
i
11
A.
The last I heard, he was with Marsh-McLennan,
|
12
insurance brokers.
|
13
Q.
Where?
j
14
A.
In the East. I don't know what town their offices
i
i
15
are in.
!
16
Q.
Do you know what state?
17
A.
Pardon?
18
A.
Do you know the state?
j
19
A.
Either New York or New Jersey.
j
20
Q.
Would you have his address in your book?
21
A.
I do not.
22
Q.
During what years has Mr. Schmitt been the safety
23 director, head of that department? i
24
A.
I believe since 1981.
25
Q.
So '81 to the present?
!
26
A.
Yes.
;
27
Q,
And during what years was Mr. Weiss in that capacity? J
28
A.
I don't know how many years prior to that. It would
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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1
be back sometime in the '70's.
2
Q.
Do you know who preceded Mr. Weiss?
3
A.
I don't remember.
4
Q.
Do you recall the name of any person who acted as
5
safety director or head of that department before Mr. Weiss,
6
going back all the way to '46?
7
A.
No, I do not.
8
Q.
Since we're on the subject of various associations,
9
during your entire employment with Flintkote, have you
10
attended any association meetings other than QAMA?
11
A.
Yes, sir.
12
Q.
First of all, what associations have you attended
13
the meetings of?
14
A.
Asbestos Information Association.
15
Q.
What other associations?
16
A.
National Purchasing Management Association.
17
Q.
Any others?
18
A.
No.
19
I take that back. What's the time span?
20
Q.
'46 to the present.
21
A.
National Trade Relations Association. That's it.
22
Q.
Other tham the meetings at QAMA that concerned the
23
health effects of asbestos exposure, have you attended
24
any other meetings where that subject was discussed?
25
A.
Yes, sir.
26
Q.
27 A.
28
Q.
AIA? AIA. Do you know when that was?
F Lr`
60 1 ?J J - w
0000314 5
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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1
A.
From 19 -- sometime in the '70's, when AIA was
2 founded, until 1982. i i
3
Q.
And during those times when you went to AIA
;
I
4
meetings, did the subject of the health effects of
j
3
asbestos exposure come up? Was that discussed at these
j
6
meetings?
I
7
A.
8
Q.
It was. And in those discussions, what group of workers
9
or persons was considered to be at risk from asbestos
10
exposure in the AIA meetings?
j
j
11
A.
Could you restate the question? I 'm confused as
j
12
to what you're asking.
j
13
Q.
Sure.
14
You told us earlier that at the QAMA meetings,
j
!i
13
the concern in these studies was about the mine workers
;
16
and the mill workers, correct?
i
17
A.
Yes, sir.
i
18
Q.
Now I'm asking about the AIA meetings. In those
j
l
19
meetings when the health effects of asbestos exposure was
20
discussed, what group of workerswas considered to be at
j
21
risk or in danger, if you will, ofexposure toasbestos?
j
22
A.
The workers who were using raw asbestos fiber to
23
manufacture products.
J
24
Q.
Was that the first time that you personally,
j
25
Mr. Hooker, learned that workers using raw asbestos to
i
26
manufacture products would be or could be in danger of
27
injury or adverse health effects from exposure to asbestos?
28
A.
Yes.
e.,
_______________________________________________ lLJ PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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1
Q.
Upon learningabout this health risk, namely, those
2
workers using the asbestos to make products, did you report
3
that to anyone at Flintkote or any of its operating
4
divisions?
5
A.
Yes, I did.
6
Q.
And in what form did you
report it? Verbally, in
7
writing?
8
A.
In writing.
9
Q.
And to whom did you report it?
i
10
A.
The subject matter dictated to whom I would submit
11
minutes of the meetings, recaps of what was said in the
12
meetings, and any materials that were handed out during
13
the meetings.
ii
i
14
Q.
Well, for example, if the subject matter concerned
l
15
the health risks of manufacturing employees, do you recall
16
any instance where you advised manufacturing managers at
17
any of the operating divisions of what you had learned?
18
A.
The people I directed my information to were the
19
heads of divisions or departments. I did not address
20
myself to the specific manufacturing locations.
21
Q.
To try to refine the day a little bit as to when
22
you first learned this at AIA meetings, can you tell us
23
whether it was while you were in your capacity as the
24
vice president of International Licensing or while you
25
were the manager of purchasing building materials?
26
A.
There was a period of time when I had the
27
international licensing responsibility, but I was relieved
28
of my duties to attend AIA meetings, because I was not in
io in. co
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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1
town, not available.
2
Q.
Does that mean that you attended AIA meetings before
3
you became the vice president of International Licensing?
4
A.
I believe so, that I did; yes.
5
Q.
And in learning the things you have described to
6
us at these AIA meetings, you would communicate what you
7
had learned to the heads of divisions rather than the
8
manufacturing managers, let's say?
9
A.
Responsible division management personnel.
10
Q.
Do you recall whether anyone else from any
11
Flintkote operating division or corporate headquarter
12
attended any AIA meetings with you where the subject of
13
the health effects of asbestos exposure were discussed?
14
A.
Yes.
15
Q.
Who, sir?
16
A.
John Schmitt.
17
Q.
18
A.
Anyone else?
William Mortonson.
19
Q.
Anyone else?
20
A.
Legal counsel. I can't remember who it was, but --
21
Q.
That's a good generic.
22
A.
Legal counsel from Flintkote.
23
Q.
24
A.
25
Q.
26
A.
Inside counsel -- Yes. -- employed by the company? Yes.
27
Q.
28
A.
Anyone else? That's all that I recall.
co =r
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1
Q.
During those years in the '70's, what was
2
Mr. Mortonson's position?
3
A.
I believe his title was manager of industrial
4
products.
5
Q.
Do you have any specific recollection of communicating
6
what you learned at any AIA meeting to any division head
7
of any Flintkote division concerning the health effects of
8
asbestos exposure?
9
A.
Not a specific document.
10
Q.
Well, how about a specific conversation with anybody?
11
A.
I don't recall of having a specific conversation.
12
Q.
In your review of the various papers that were
13
earlier described as the Sterns production of documents,
14
did you see in there any memoranda or writings that
15
reflected your expression of concern about what you had
16
learned at one of these AIA meetings?
17
A.
Yes, I did.
18
Q.
We'll talk about the documents later on.
19
Have you heard from any source, other than what
20
counsel may have told you, that a health risk exists for
21
persons using a finished product which contains asbestos?
22
A.
I have heard of potential health risks.
23
Q.
24
A.
When did you first hear that or learn that? Through my activities withAIA.
25
Q.
Would this be, again, in the '70's?
26
A.
'70's .
27
Q.
Up to 1982?
28
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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1
Q.
Can you tell us what class products, finished
2
products, you heard might pose a health risk?
3
A.
Are you asking me to describe all of the products
4
that I can think of that were made, or just my company's
5
products?
6
O.
vour company's products.
7
A.
Asbestos cement pipe --
8
These are manufactured products, I 'm talking about
i
1
9
now.
!
I!
10
0.
Yes, sir.
!
|
11
A.
Are we talkina about the manufacture of the Droducts !
!
12
from the time that I was inAIA? What span oftime of
i
13
manufacture are we talking about now?
j
14
0.
Anytime, in terms ofmanufacture. Interms ofwhen ;
15
you learned it, it was from
the '70's on.
j
I
16
A.
Yes. But you're asking me to go back --
j
j
17
Asbestos cement shingles and sheets. Those are
18
the --
19
Ask the question again.
20
0.
Sure.
21
A.
I want to answer it, but I don't want to answer it
22
incorrectly, either.
23
Q.
All right. Let me ask it again.
24
Let me just have the reporter read it back.
25
(Whereupon, the record was read by the reporter.)
26
THE WITNESS:
And then you defined that,
27
Flintkote products.
28
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. Right.
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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1
A.
Joint compound -- Well, wait a minute. Joint
I
2
compound was not a Flintkote product.
!
3
Asbestos cement, shingles and board, and asbestos
J
i
4
cement pipe.
j
5
O.
You mentioned joint compound and then said it
!
6
wasn't a Flintkote product.
j
l
7
A.
We had defined it as manufactured by.
1
8
Q.
Right.
!
9
A.
That was not a Flintkote product.
j
j 10
O.
Did you learn at anytime during any of these AIA
l
I
11
meetinc"s that there was a "potential health risk from floor j!
j 1 2
tile?
|
i
13
A.
No, sir. With the exception of sanding.
t
14
Q.
Well, maybe I should define the terms a little bit.
'
1I
j 1$
When we speak of the health risks associated with
I
l
16
the use of a finished or manufactured product, I'm including
17
in the question any use of that product that is foreseeable,
18
that is recognized.
19
A.
The answer, then, is none in floortile.
|
20
0.
So in your view, sanding of floor tile is not --
21
A.
An accepted practice.
22
O.
-- not an accepted practice?
23
A.
(Witness nods head in an affirmative manner.)
24
Q.
How long has that been true, sir?
j 25 A. For as long as I have been associatedwith floor tile, i
26
Q.
Back to the '40's?
i
27
A.
Yes.
28
Q.
'
Can vou tell me the reason that the sandinq of floor
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ ;_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ l
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
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121
1
tile is not an accepted practice?
2
A.
The potential release of asbestos fiber in the sand
3
when it's sanded.
4
Q.
And that potential release of asbestos fiber, I
5
take it, is something to be avoided; is that correct?
6
A.
Yes, sir.
7
Q.
And that was something that was known by you going
8
back to the 1940's?
i
9
A.
Not specifically. I used floor tile myself in those
10
days, put it down myself as a layman; not as a salesman for
11
Flintkote.
12
Q.
It was your understanding, though, at that time,
13
that it was not an accepted practice to sand floor tile,
14
correct?
15
MR. SCHROETER:
What time do you mean? Going
16
all the way back to the '40's?
17
THE WITNESS:
As far as I can remember.
18
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. When you first learned
19
that there might be a health risk associated with exposure
20
to certain finished products that contain asbestos, did
21
you ever hear that the cutting or chipping or sanding of
22
manufactured products could result in the release of asbestos
23
fiber?
24
MR. SCHROETER:
Any manufactured products?
25
MR. SILBERFELD:
Yes.
26
THE WITNESS:
In any of my time span?
27
MR. SILBERFELD:
0. Yes.
28
A.
Yes.
cnoj
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122
1
Q.
Did you learn that with respect to any particular
2
Flintkote manufactured Droducts?
I
3
A.
Asbestos cement pipe, specifically.
|
J 4
Q.
Do you know whether --
ii
5
Did you want to add something to your answer?
j
i
6
A.
No.
|
7
Q.
Do you know whether asbestos-containing floor tile
i
I
8
manufactured by Flintkote was among the products that would j
9
result in the release of asbestos fiber if cut or chipped
10
or broken?
l
11
A.
No, sir. It would not.
12
Q.
It would not?
13
A.
It would not.
j
i
14
Q.
How do you know that, sir?
!
i1
15
A.
The product was made in such a way that the asbestos t I
16
fiber becomes bound into the product.
j
i
17
O.
Is there a manufacturing process that results in
j
18
that binding, or is there an actual agent added to the mix )
19
that causes that, if you know?
!
i
20
A.
Agent being raw materials, yes. Raw materials are
;
21
added, resin and other raw materials. Or binders, if you
22
choose to call them that.
23
Q.
And are you aware, Mr. Hooker, of any tests that
J
j
24
were conducted by Flintkote at anytime to determine whether j
25
breakage, chipping, or the cutting of Flintkote floor tile |
26
resulted in a release of airborne fibers?
;
27
A.
No.
28
Q.
You're not aware that any such testing has ever been
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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123
1
done?
2
A.
By Flintkote.
3
Q.
By Flintkote.
4
Do you know if any such test has ever been done by
5
anybody?
6
MR. SCHROETER:
What do you mean by anybody?
7
By other companies?
8
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. By anybody, other than
9
Flintkote.
10
A.
Restate yourlast question
again,
11
p.
Sure.
12
You told us that, as far as you know, Flintkote
13 has never conducted tests to determine whether the cutting,
14
breaking, or chipping of floor tile would result in the
15
release of fibers, correct?
16
A.
Yes.
17
Q.
Now my question is: Do you know whether any company
18
or person has ever conducted such tests?
19
A.
I 'm not certain whether they have or have not been
20
done -- been made.
21
Q.
To your knowledge, hasFlintkote at anytime conducted
22
tests to determine whether the sanding of its floor tile
23 would result in the release of airborne asbestos fibers?
24
A.
No, I've never been in any such Flintkote tests.
25
Q.
Do you know whether anyone else has conducted any
26
tests to determine whether the sanding of its floor tile
27
would result in the release of airborne asbestos fibers?
28
A.
I do not know specifically the scope of any tests.
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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u ^ J i 34
124 n
1
0.
Now when you first learned that there was a potential
2
health risk associated with the use of manufactured products,
3
did you communicate that to anyone else at Flintkote?
4
MR. JUDY:
He just noted a report.
j
5
MR. SILBERFELD:
Well, I think the last time
6
we were talking about the manufacturing setting.
7
MR. JUDY:
Right. I apologize.
8
THE WITNESS:
The question again, please?
9
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. Sure.
10
A couple of minutes ago we were talking about what
11
you learned about health risks for manufacturing employees.
12
Do you remember thatdiscussion?
13
A.
Yes.
14
0.
And youtold us you went to AIA meetings and
15
Mr. Schmitt and ilr. Mortonson came along.
16
A.
Uh-huh.
17
O.
Then we got into another subject, which was health
18
risks associated with finished or manufactured products.
19
A.
20
Q.
Yes. Now the question is:
In that connection, did you
21
communicate what you learned about the health risks
22
associated with manufactured products to anyone else at
23
Flintkote?
24
A.
Yes, sir.
25
Q.
Who, sir?
26
A.
Did you ask me a question?
27
O.
Yes. I said who, sir?
28
A.
As aDpropriate,whatever products were discussed in
U(J\\<t.'>H
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHANO REPORTERS
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126
1
warning labels on any product manufactured by Flintkote?
2
A.
I was not involved in that decision.
3
Q.
Did you participate in anyway in the decision-makinc
4
process, even though you may not have been involved in the
5
final decision?
6
A.
My interpretation of the process, no.
7
Q,
Did you have any role in the information gathering
8
or the data.gathering process that led up to the decision
9
making process?
10
MR. SCHROETER:
Excuse me. Don't answer that.
11
You're assuming that he knows what the decision
12
makers used. Maybe you should foundationally ask what he
13
knows.
14
MR. SILBERFELD:
I'm not suggesting that they
!
iI
15
used any information he may have gathered.
j
1
16
Q.
But did you, at some point in time, gather informa- |
17
tion without regard to whether it was ever relied on or
j
18
used by anyone above you, about the advisability or
j
19
inadvisability of using warning labels on Flintkote products? |
i
20
A.
At some point in time, I was involved in the wording
21
of warning labels.
22
Q.
Is that the extent of your involvement?
23
A.
As far as the decision-making process was concerned.
I
24
Q.
Well, by the time you became involved in the whole
|
!
25 question of warning labels, had the decision been made, as j
26
far as you knew then, to place a warning label on Flintkote j
27
products?
|
28
A.
Yes, sir.
!
c-njtocn
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFICO SHORTHANO REPORTERS
127
1
Q.
And it was down to deciding what the wording of that
2
label would be?
3
A.
Yes, sir.
4
Q.
And you were involved in that.
5
A.
Yes, sir.
6
0.
Do you know when that was?
7
A.
It was sometime after 1974.
8
Q.
Do you know when the question of whether to place a
9
warning label on any Flintkote product was first considered
10
by anyone in the company?
11
A.
N o , I don't know when it was first considered.
12
Q.
In attempting to answer interrogatories or respond
13
to requests for admissions, have you searched the corporate
14
records to try to determine the answer to that question?
15
A.
I have sought reliable information.
16
Q.
And what did you learn?
17
A.
What did I learn?
18
Q.
What did you learn when the question of warning
19
labels was first considered by the company?
20
MR. SCHROETER:
When you say warning labels,
21
I take it you're speaking of labels warning about asbestos
22
in some fashion.
23
MR. SILBERFELD:
Sure.
24
MR. SCHROETER:
Not solvents or any other
25
substance.
i
26
MR. SILBERFELD:
Asbestos.
j
27
THE WITNESS:
Yes. I investigated to
' j
28
d e t e r m i n e w hen l a b e l s were placed on those products that we
u \coCOcn
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED Sh ORTh ANO REPORTERS
FvAH 6i v3o FID coco3
128
1
labeled, and this work was -- I did this work in or since
2
1980, in trying to define the date parameters of when
3
certain labels were used, warning labels were used.
4
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. Were you actually able to
5
put dates on certain labels?
6
A.
Yes, we have done that.
7
Q.
We'll talk about the specific labels a little later.
8
In this kind of reconstruction of what went on
9
concerning warning labels that were conducted since 1980,
10
were you able to determine when the question of whether or
11
not to put
a label on any asbestos-containing product
12
was first considered by anyone at the company?
13
A.
I don't know when.
14
O.
Do you know by decade, whether it was the '70's,
15
the '60's or before?
16
A.
I don't care to guess.
17
Q.
I don't want you to guess. If you have an estimate
18
for us as to a decade, we're entitled to that.
19
A.
20
Q.
1970's . Do you know what classes ofproducts received the
21
first warning label that Flintkote used on any of its
22
asbestos-containing products?
23
A.
I don't know what product came first.
24
Q.
Well, do you know any of the products that received
25
a warning label?
26
A.
Yes.
27
Q.
28
A.
Which ones? Floor tile received awarning
label.
cnto o cn
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHANO REPORTERS
129
1
Q.
Do you know when?
2
A.
I don't remember the date. Sometime in the '70's.
i
3
These dates are in exhibits.
4
O.
Any of the liquid products receive a warning?
5
A.
To the best of my knowledge, we had one liquid
i
6
product with a warning on it.
7
Q.
Did any of the shingle products receive a warning?
j
8
A.
They were discontinued before warning labels were
9
used.
10
Q.
And was the cement pipe still a manufactured product
11
at the time that the warning label issue came up?
12
A.
No label was used. It was in the form of a work
j
13
practice pamphlet.
14
Q.
Did you participate, Mr. Hooker, in any discussions
15
within Flintkote with regard to the advisability of putting
16
warning labels on raw material, namely, raw asbestos, shipped
17
out by Flintkote Mines?
18
A.
Yes.
19
0.
And when did that discussion first take place or
20
when did that consideration first come up?
\
21
A.
I believe it was in the late '60's. It could have
22
been early '70's.
23
Q.
Do you know how that issue was first raised, how it
24
came up or how Flintkote first learned for it?
i
25
A.
Yes.
|
ii
26
Q.
How?
. |
27
A.
Otherasbestos producers in Canada decided to label
28
their products.
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED Sh o r t h a n d REPORTERS
oooolno
130
1
Q.
Do you know what the gist of the warning label was,
2
without regard to the exact words?
3
A.
The gist was, any dust inhaled from this material
4
could be injurious to your health.
5
Q.
Was Flintkote's decision to label its raw asbestos
6
emanating from Flintkote Mines a voluntary decision or one
7
imposed by some regulatory agency, if you know?
8
A.
Voluntary.
9
Q.
And it was in keeping, I take it, withwhat other
10
producers were doing.
11
A.
Yes.
12
Q.
As far as you know, did theknowledge ofpotential
13
health hazards associated with asbestos exposure in the
14
manufacturing setting result in any change in work practices
15
at any Flintkote manufacturing facility?
16
MR. SCHROETER:
Objection. Vague. Whose
17
knowledge?
18
MR. SILBERFELD:
Flintkote's knowledge.
19
MR. SCHROETER:
Mr. Hooker's knowledge?
20
MR. SILBERFELD:
Mr. Hooker, and anyone he
21
passed it along to.
22
MR. SCHROETER:
Anybody else that knew it from
23
any other source?
24
MR. SILBERFELD:
I'm sorry. He was rustling
25
the paper. I didn't hear you.
26
MR. SCHROETER:
Are you including in the
27
question anybody, including those that he didn't talk to
28
that knew it on their own from any other source?
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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li V v v 3 i
131
1
MU. SILBERFELD:
Let's start with Mr. Hooker
2
and who Mr. Hooker would have advised in the normal course
I
3
of his practice.
j
il
4
Q.
Do you know, sir, whether the transmission of that
j
f!
5
knowledge about the health effects to manufacturing
|
i
6
employees resulted, in fact, in the change of any work
j
7
practices at any Flintkote manufacturing facility?
j
8
A.
Yes, sir.
i
i
j 9 O. What changes? I
10
A.
One I can specifically remember is going from sweeping ;
11
to vacuuming asbestos for cleanup purpose in the plant.
j
12
Q.
Do you know where that was instituted?
13
A.
Best of my knowledge, in all of our plants using
14
asbestos fiber at the time that was implemented.
15
Q.
Do you know when it was implemented?
16
A.
Sometime in the '70's. I don't know the date.
j
17
Q.
Before 1975 or after? If you can break it down
|
18
that way.
i
19
A.
I think it was after 1975.
j
i
20
Q.
And was this change of procedure part of a nationwide j
21
change in practices?
22
A.
Yes.
23
Q.
Do you know who it was that was instrumental in
24
seeing that that change take place within Flintkote?
25
A.
I don't knowspecificallywho instructed our
26
facilities to take that action.
. I
27
O.
But you know, in fact, thatit was done?
28
A.
Yes, sir.
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHANO REPORTERS
132
1
Q.
Can you name any other changes in manufacturing
2
procedures or steps that were instituted after it became
!
3
known that there was a health risk associated with asbestos i |
4
exposure to manufacturing employees?
I
5
A.
Bagging asbestos in plastic rather than in paper,
j
r
6
so that we could introduce the empty bags into the mixing
j
7
process for floor tile and not have to dispose of them,
i
8
was a procedure.
j
9
Q.
By that, do you mean rather than emptying bags in
|
|
10
the mixing process, you'd put the whole bag in?
j
11
A.
I don't recall whether we put the whole bag in or -- j
l
12
We made an effort to do that, I know, because we changed
j
13
the weights in the bags to accommodate a batch requirement. j
14
And I can't remember whether we were able to do it throughout1,
I
15
all of our facilities or not.
j
j
16
Q.
So you're not sure whether that was across the board j
j 17
in every plant; is that correct?
j
18
A.
Other than the disposal of the bag, the plastic bag
19
was disposed of then in the mixing process rather than
20
being handled and sent to a dump.
21
Q.
Any other changes in manufacturing that you can
22
recall nationwide, or at least in a large number of the
|
23
manufacturing facilities, after the knowledge of the health J
24
effects that you know of?
j
j
25
A.
I can't think of any others.
j
26
Q.
Do you know whether, at anytime, any wet handling
Il
27
procedures were instituted at any manufacturing plant to
28
cut down on dust created by the process?
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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FvAt'1 60193335 --1 FLD 000*ji0
133
I
A.
I know of none.
2
Q.
Do you know if any changes were made at any
3
manufacturing facility in any Flintkote operation in the
4
United States concerning ventilation of the ambient atmos
5
phere in a manufacturing facility?
6
A.
Not that I know of.
7
Q.
Do you know whether any changes were made in any
j
8
manufacturing facility, in terms of point of operation
9
dust controls, after the health effects of asbestos exposure
10
became known?
11
A.
Not specifically. But there were changes made as
12
the state of the art improved.
13
Q.
Do you know whether the use of respirators became
14
an accepted practice as a result of this knowledge being
15
transmitted to other people at Flintkote other than you?
16
A.
The use of respirators became what?
j
I
17
Q.
Widespread among manufacturing workers.
j
18
A.
I do not know of any widespread use of respirators
j 19 in our plants. i
20
Q.
Now when you first learned of the potential
21
health effects of asbestos exposure in the mines and mill
J
22
workers, did you learn what types of illness or malady
23
those people were at risk of contracting?
24
A.
At that point in time, all I knew is they were lung
25
diseases, and the word cancer was used.
;
I
26
Q.
V7hen you first learned that workers in the manufac- !
f
27
turing setting were at risk to contract disease from exposure i
28
to asbestos, were the types of diseases the same as you just j
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
C E HTl^eO SHORTHANO r e p o r t e r s
J
\\ i 4 r.
\}
.y*
u*'
`J
4 '
134
1
mentioned?
2
A.
Yes, sir.
3
Q.
And when you first learned that persons exposed to
4
finished or manufactured products were at risk of
5
contracting disease, were the diseases the same as those
6
you've just mentioned?
7
A.
My knowledge grew all at the same time. It was no
8
different for exposure to fiber in one location versus
9
another.
10
Q.
In your role, Mr. Hooker, as the manager of purchasing
11
for the Building Materials Division, did you play any part
12
in the evaluation of workers' compensation claims made by
13
Flintkote manufacturing employees?
14
A.
No, sir.
15
O.
Was there a person at Flintkote who was charged with
16
that responsibility on a corporate level?
17
A.
I don't know.
18
Q.
Do you know how the workers' compensation claims
19
of various manufacturing plants were handled within
20
Flintkote in the 1960's and 1970's?
21
A.
No.
22
Q.
Do you know whether any employee of Flintkote has
23
at anytime made a claim of occupation disease, lung disease,
24
from exposure to asbestos?
25
A.
I have been told that there are some claims made.
26
Q.
Do you know when the first such claim was made?
27
A.
I do not.
28
Q.
Do you know how many such claims have been made?
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
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1
A.
I do not.
i
2
Q.
Have you at anytime participated in the evaluation
3
of any workers' compensation claim made by a Flintkote
4
employee claiming occupational disease from exposure to
j
5
asbestos?
6
A.
Not the evaluation of the claim, no.
i
7
Q.
Specifically, have you at anytime participated in
8
the decision making as to whether or not to pay such a claim? !
!
9
A.
No, sir.
|
10
Q.
We've spent a fair amount of time talking about the
i
11
job titles that you've had.
12
In the course of your almost forty years working
13
with Flintkote, have you served on any corporate committees
14
that had to do with anv internal functions of the company?
I
15
A.
Not designated as such, no.
1
16
0.
Have you been assigned to any special tasks or
j
i
17
projects by your superiors which were not particularly well j
i
18
defined within your job at any moment in time? Did you have
19
any special tasks or projects over the course of your career? I
20
A.
One way or another, they were always defined by my
21
job title -- job titles, with the exception of asbestos
22
interrogatories, requests for admissions.
23
Q.
That's a very special job.
24 A. That has never been defined. I|
j 25
Q.
Want to take a break?
I
26
Off the record.
!
27
(Whereupon, there was a recess taken at 2:20 o'clock !
28
p.m., and the deposition resumed at 2:50 o'clock p.m.)
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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1
EXAMINATION BY MR. JAMES MILLER
2
MR. JAMES MILLER:
Q. Mr. Hooker, my name is J i m
3
Miller, and I represent, in this proceeding, the Grisham &
jI
4
Cannon firm in Long Beach, and also a number of plaintiffs |
5
in the Bay Area.
j
I
6
.Forgive roe for asking, sir, wouldyoutell us your
j
7
date of birth?
j
8
A.
February 23rd, 1920.
i
\
9
O.
And what was your education prior to joining
j
J 10
Flintkote?
i
11
A.
Graduated from the University of Southern California, |
12
business administration/industrialengineering.
j
I
13
O.
Did the courses that you had in college have anything j
14
to do whatsoever, to the best of your recollection at this j
15
time, with industrial hygiene?
!
16
A.
No, sir.
ij
17
Q.
You told us that, at some point in time before
j
18
joining Flintkote, you had the opportunity to do some floor !
19
tile laying. Was that summer employment?
20
A.
I'm sorry, there is a misinterpretation of what I
21
said. I said I used floor tile as a layman. It was not
22
prior to my employment with Flintkote. It was during the
23
course of the years I've been with Flintkote.
24
Q.
You redid the --
25
A.
My own kitchen.
26
Q .
What type of employment did you have prior to
27
joining Flintkote?
28
A.
w orked in c o rru g a te d box f a c t o r i e s , so ld H aberdash ery,
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
.
, 019, 3, 5
137 I
1
worked in Treesweet product orange juice manufacturing
2
company.
3
Q.
Nothing that's relevant to the discussion today
j t
I
4
about asbestos products or usage?
j
5
A.
No, sir.
|
6
Q.
While you were employed in the Los Angeles or
'
l
7
Vernon, California, area, do you recall whether Flintkote
i
8
Corporation used any diatomaceous earth in their products?
9
A.
They did.
j
10
Q.
What products were those?
J
11
A.
Liquid products.
12
Q.
Such as what, sir?
13
A.
Industrial coatings and adhesives. I do not know
14
the specific products, but I purchased it.
15
Q.
From whom did you purchase diatomaceous earth?
I
16
A.
Johns-Manville.
j
i
17
Q.
Up to the time of 1956, doyou recall any discussions j
!
18
or reading any materials including warning labels on
j
i
19
diatomaceous earth products?
j
20
A. ' No, I have no recollection whatsoever of warning
21
labels.
22
Q.
Do you recall any labor difficulty thatoccurred at
23
Johns-Manville facilities in Southern California which
I
24
may have interrupted diatomaceous earth supplies to Flintkote?
25
A.
Not to my memory.
j
26
Q.
During the time that you were a salesman in Los
;
27
Angeles, do you recall any interruption in the supply of
<
28
asbestos to Flintkote manufacturing facilities?
______________________________________________ PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHANO r e p o r t e r s
, \9^^ o __
13 S
1
A.
I don't recall any interruptions during that period
2
of time.
3
Q.
Do you have any information at this time concerning
4
a strike that occurred in the asbestos mines in Quebec in
5
1948, 1949?
6
A.
Sir, I can only recall that during the course of
i
7
my assignment in the purchasing function, there were times
i
8
when asbestos was short because of strikes in Quebec, Canada, j
9
I cannot identify the dates.
J
10
Q.
Either at that time or subsequently in your position
l
11
as a sales manager for Flintkote Mines, were you made aware |
12
that any of those labor difficulties in Quebec had to do
[
13
with the health hazards of asbestos products?
j
i
i 14
A.
Not that I recall.
j
15
Q.
You indicated, at least the one reference to the type 1
16
of asbestos used by Flintkote, you mentioned chrysotile
|
I
17
asbestos. Do you recall whether any Flintkote product
j
18
contained any other type of asbestos at anytime since your j
19
association with the company?
20
A.
Yes.
21
Q.
What types of asbestos would those have included?
j
22
A.
The only other one specifically I remember is
:
23
crocidolite, used in the asbestos cement pipe, commonly
j
i
24
referred to as blue fiber after.
i
j
25
Q.
Did you have any responsibility, either in Los Angeles I
26
or in any other location, for the purchase of crocidolite
1
27
asbestos?
t
28
A.
At one point in time, I was involved in the purchase
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
c e r tif ie d s h o r t h a n o r ep o r te r s
fam FLD
60193335 000031 6?
139
1
of fiber from the -- or as in stockpile by the General
2
Services Administration, when they released strategic --
3
previously held strategic materials. And purchases were
4
made from stockpile, either directly or through agents.
5
Q.
Do you recall a time frame with respect to those
6
purchases?
7
A.
I have to guess. 19 -- Must have been in -- I'm
8
sorry, it was after 1962. That's all I can tell you. I
9
don't know at what point.
10
Q.
Was crocidolite also used in your asbestos cement
11
shingles and hardboard that you mentioned?
12
A.
No, sir.
|
13
Q.
Did the hardboard or shingles havea particular
j
14
trade name that was attached to them?
:
i
15
A.
Again, I'm trying to be specific, and I can't be.
i
16
I cannot be sDecific. I do not remember.
|
I
17
Q.
Do you recall, sir, the period of time during which
18
asbestos sheets or board was made by Flintkote Company?
19
A.
They were being made when I came to work for Flintkote
20
in 1946, and they were discontinued sometime in the '60's.
21
Q.
What facilities were making those products, to the
22
best of your recollection, in 1946 through the '60's?
23
A.
East Rutherford, New Jersey; Chicago Heights, Illinois;
24
New Orleans, Louisiana; and San Bernardino, California.
25
Q.
What products were made in San Bernardino, other
26
than asbestos cement shingles and board?
27
A.
None.
28
Q.
Do you have any idea as to the operating time frame
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
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I 'L l/
______ I
6 0 1 '? 3 3 3 s '> U 3 1 7 0
140
1
of that plant, from when to when?
2
A.
1950's until 19 -- sometime in the early '60's.
3
For a matter of record, it's in the exhibits.
4
Q.
Do you have any idea at this time what percentage
5
of the market Flintkote enjoyed in the State of California
6
for asbestos cement shingles or asbestos board?
7
A.
Absolutely no idea.
8
Q.
Do you know how that was those two products were
9
distributed into users' hands in the State of California?
10
A.
To the best of my recollection, through our regular
11
building material distributors.
12
Q.
Were those owned by Flintkote Corporation or
13
independent companies?
14
A.
Independent companies.
15
Q.
Earlier, you mentioned some contact with Ruberoid
16
Company and with Nicolet. Can you give me a time frame
17
for Ruberoid and in what regard you had some dealings with
18
that company?
19
A.
During the course of my span in trade relations,
20
Ruberoid became part of GAF, and I had contact with the
21
Ruberoid-GAF organization.
22
Q.
Were you selling products to Ruberoid Corporation
23
or buying products from them?
24
A.
Selling.
25
Q.
What type of products were you selling to them?
26
A.
Corrugated shipping containers.
27
Q.
Were you selling any asbestos fiber toRuberoid,
28
to the best of your knowledge?
r i r\ ru 1
r. r. u u u u jim
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
~
CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
141
1
A.
At one point in time, Flintkote sold asbestos fiber
2
to Ruberoid. Flintkote Mines, Limited, sold asbestos fiber !
3
to Ruberoid.
4
Q . Can you tell us that point in time?
j
5
A.
I don't remember.
j
il
6
Q.
You also mentioned some relationship in a corporate |
7
level with Nicolet Company. Can you tell us in what respect
8
that was?
9
A.
The corporate relationship was late in my years in
|
10
the corporate level of the company. And I'm trying to
11
remember the circumstances. The president of Nicolet
j
I
12
was contacted in connection with the sale of property that 1
13
Flintkote Mines, Limited owned in Quebec. And the time
]
14
frame, this was in the '70's, early '80's.
!
15
Q.
To the best of your knowledge, did Flintkote Mines
j
16
ever sell asbestos fiber to Nicolet?
j
17
A.
To the best of my knowledge, no, it did not.
18
Q.
Did Flintkote ever purchase asbestos fiber from
!
19
Nicolet?
!
20
A.
Not to my knowledae.
!
i
21
Q.
By the way, do you know from what source the
22
crocidolite was purchased?
23
A.
The one which I've mentioned was stockpile, from
j
24
government stockpile. And other than that, there were
j
25
three companies representing various producers of African
:
26
crocidolite fibers, that I recall. And I don't -- I was
!
27
not -- I did not place the orders specifically for the
.
I
28
fibers, so I'm not positive of who we purchased the fiber
!
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SMORTHANO REPORTERS
142
1
from. But there were three companies that --
2
Q.
Do you recall who those companies were?
3
A.
Standard Asbestos, Huxley Development. There's one
4
other.
1
i 5
Q.
North American Asbestos?
Il
6
A.
North American Asbestos.
7
Q.
Do you recall receiving sales calls from persons
I
8
representing those three companies in connection with the
j
9
sale of crocidolite?
10
A.
Standard Asbestos called
Ji
on me.j i
11
Q.
Do you have any recollection today as to who that was? i j
12
A.
I can picture him. I can't name him.
13
Q.
Can you tell me, sir, when thefirst time that you
;
14
visited your mine in Thetford Mines was?
i
15
A.
1969.
;
16
Q.
In connection with that visit to Quebec, did you
i
17
visit the facilities of any other companies?
[
18
A.
Yes.
j
I
19
Q . Who? Which other facilities?
1
20
A.
If I can recall correctly, too. One was then
21
National Asbestos, and the other was Johns-Manville.
22
Q.
At Asbestos Quebec?
23
A.
Asbestos Quebec.
24 Q. Where was the national mines? In Thetford? |
25
A.
Thetford Mines.
|
j
26
Q.
In connection with your activities as salesmanager
1
27
for the mines, did you have any discussion with any of
28
your colleagues within Flintkote Corporation regarding the
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED Sh ORTh a n o REPORTERS *
f , ak &iv3335
fL D
0 0 0 0 3 1 iO
143
1
effect on sales that a warning label on fiber packages
2
would have?
i
3
A.
Not that I recall.
j
4
Q.
Do you recall whether labeling of fiber insofar as
'
5
the effect of such a label on sales occurred to you? Was
6
that something that you considered at the time of
t
7
deliberating whether to put a label on? And if so, what
8
kind of label?
9
A.
I can only say I'm sure some consideration was
10
given to it at that time.
!
11
Q.
You indicated that as part of your activities as
;
12
sales manager of the mine, ,you sold to Raybestos-Manhattan,
i
13
Celotex, Huxley, and I think you indicated that the sales
,
14
to Johns-Manville took place in Canada rather than the
j
15
United States.
j
16
A.
Yes, sir.
!
i
17
Q.
Was that an F.O.B. type sale that occurred in Thetforc . i
18
Mines?
j
!
19
A.
The policy of Flintkote Company was to sell their
20
fiber F.O.B. Thetford Mines.
j
21
Q.
So that in any case that you recall, did Flintkote
I
22
Mines or Flintkote Corporation retain title to the fiber
23
until it was delivered to the customer?
24
A.
Other than our own plants, no.
25
Q.
Did you purchase any materials, asbestos fiber,
26
basically, from Carey Canada or Carey Canadian Mines?
27
A.
As sales manager for the mines?
j
28
Q.
Well, basically, as director of purchasing of the
j
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHANO REPORTERS
om 3 3 5
0 0 0 0 3 ! ?!j
144
1
corporation, as sales manager.
2
A.
The purchases of all Quebec fiber for The Flintkote
3
Company were made -- that's in the United States -- were
4
made by Flintkote Mines, Limited.
5
Q.
j Do you know whether Flintkote Mines had to purchase i
6
any fiber from other sources in order to cover its own
j
7
delivery commitments?
!
I
8
A.
Yes.
9
O.
From whom would you purchase those supplies?
10
MR. SCHROETER:
Excuse me. From who would
ij 11
Flintkote Mines purchase them?
12
MR. JAMES MILLER:
Eight.
j
13 THE WITNESS: Carey, Johns-Mar.ville, 'i
I
14
National Asbestos Corporation.
j
15
MR. JAMES MILLER:
Q. The reason why I'm asking
i
16
is, I don't --
!
17
A.
Those are basically the sources.
18
Q.
One of the documents that we just saw here pertained
19 to rail deliveries of asbestos fiber from Carey, And f|
20
that's why I asked if --
21
A.
Uh-huh.
22
Q.
-- indeed Flintkote was purchasing asbestos fiber
j
j 23
from Carev as well as from Asbestos Coro., Limited and -
I
i 24
other sources.
i
25
Q.
Flintkote Mines purchased the fiber for The Flintkote i
26
Company.
27
Q.
From a variety of sources, and you've named several.
28
A.
Those in Quebec.
(j\c.n
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHANO REPORTERS
145
1
Q.
One of the companies that's listed in this
2
exhibit, which is the "Summary of Fiber Used by The
3
Flintkote Company," is Asbestos Corporation, Limited.
4
A.
Yes, sir.
5
Q.
Did you purchase fiber for Flintkote's manufacturing
6
operation from Asbestos Corporation, or merely to cover
7
Flintkote Mines' delivery commitments, or both?
8
A.
Flintkote Mines purchased asbestos fiber from the
9
Canadian producers as required by the Flintkote facilities
10
in the United States. To restate it, the Flintkote
11
manufacturing facilities in the United States placed their
12
orders for Quebec fiber, regardless of its producer, on
13
Flintkote Mines, Limited.
14
Q.
And they got the material from their own mines and
15
from a variety of other sources?
16
A.
17
And other sources, correct.
MR. SCHROETER:
Counsel,for the record, give
18
us a quick identification of the exhibit you mentioned
19
moments ago.
20
MR. ROSEN:
The exhibit which Mr. Miller
21
was reading and asking that last question was Exhibit B
22
in the Beauregard-St. Jacque action that we.'ve indicated
23
earlier.
24
MR. SCHROETER:
Of the date of the action?
25
MR. GRELL:
There's no date of verification.
26
But the proof of service is dated September 9th, 1983.
27
MR. SCHROETER:
Thank you very much.
28
MR. JAMES MILLER:
Q. We've just discussed the
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED Sh ORTHANO REPORTERS
FvAM 0193335
FIB 0000 31 F
146
1
source of supply for consumption by Flintkote in its
2
manufacturing operation. I'm also asking whether fiber
3
was purchased from other mines for delivery by Flintkote
j
4
Mines to your mining company customers that you've identified
5
selling to them.
6
A.
Would you restate the question?
j
7
Q.
Was it necessary at sometime during the tenure of
i
i
8
your position as sales manager of the mine to acquire
9
fiber from other mines for delivery to your Flintkote Mines
10
customers?
|
i
11
A.
Yes, sir.
i
12
Q.
And were the sources of those purchases the Canadian j !
13
producers of chrysotile asbestos that we talked about
i
14
earlier?
j
i
15
A.
Yes, sir.
16
Q.
Did those mines include Lake Asbestos?
17
A.
Yes, sir.
j
j
18
Q.
Do you have any indication at this point as to how
j
19
much fiber was purchased from Lake Asbestos in the period
j
20
of time from 1969 to 1982?
21
A.
Hundreds of tons. I don't know how many hundreds.
22
Q.
Do you know whether that material was sold to
23
customers of Flintkote Mines or whether that was consumed
I
24 in the products manufactured by Flintkote Corporation, or ji
25
both?
'
!
26
A.
To the best of my knowledge, the majority of it was ;
27
used internally by Flintkote. There was some sold to other i
28
companies.
r, ,.M
hi'' r?:?3335 ______________________ _________________________ uvVu3177 _______ !
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
certified shorthand reporters
147
1
Q.
When Flintkote Mines would use fiber produced by
2
another mine in order to meet its commitments to its
3
customers, would those packages be rebranded to carry the
j
4
Flintkote Mines logo?
J
i
5
A.
Only if the sale was to be made to somebody else
j I
6
other than Flintkote.
;
7
Q.
Would those be repackaged at the source of the fiber? j
8
In other words, Lake or Asbestos Corporation, Limited or
j
9 Carey or National or Johns-Manville? i
10
A.
They were labeled at the source of manufacture.
!
1
11
Q.
I assume that Flintkote Mines continued as an
i i
12
active sales corporation after the Flintkote mine was closed 1
13
in about 1972; is that true?
14
A.
That is correct.
1
15
Q.
Is it still an active corporation in that regard?
!
1
16
A.
Not in that regard.
j
17
Q.
What is its function at this point in time?
'
j
18
A.
Dormant.
j
il
19
Q.
When did it go into dormancy? *
|
i
20
A.
I believe in 1981.
|i
21
Q.
To the best of your knowledge, did FlintkoteMines
j
22
sell fiber to the U.S. Government, aside from the limited
j
23
sales of finished products that you described earlier?
j
j
24
A.
Flintkote Mines manufactured only saw asbestos fiber
25
and did not sell any to the U.S. Government.
26
Q.
Did you sell fiber to other mining companies? Did
:
27
Flintkote Mines sell fiber to other mines?
.
2S
A.
Yes, sir.
, V - -an c
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
148
]
Q.
Let's talk about your gypsum products for a moment.
2
I understand that Flintkote sold gypsum wallboard for a
3
period of time during your tenure with the corporation.
4
A.
Yes, sir.
!
5
Q.
I also understand that that wallboard itself did
|
i
6
not contain asbestos. Is that your understanding as of
7
this time?
8
A.
That is my understanding as of this time.
j
i
9
Q.
And you've indicated earlier today that you began
j
i
10
selling joint compound for wallboard treatment sometime
!
11
in the late '50's, which was manufactured by companies
!
j
12
other than Flintkote.
i
J
13
A.
"You," meaning --
i
14
Q.
Not Mr. Hooker personally, but Flintkote Corporation, j I
15
A.
You are correct.
!
16
Q.
Do you recall whether there was any particular brand
17
now which was associated with those products?
18
A.
Only the Flintkote label.
19
Q.
Do you recall whether you sold the joint tape as
20
well as compound?
21
A.
I don't believe we did. I can't recall of ever
22
selling tape.
23
Q.
Was that also distributed, at least in the State of
I
24
California, through thebuilding material dealings that
j
25
you mentioned previously?
j
26
A.
Not always. It was, in someinstances, sold through i i - i
27
a distributorship.
!
28
Q.
How else would it be distributed?
____________________
r , , ^ M XQ i ? 3 3 3 3
_ Tr L;tf/\ i*.U*UmU*V*O*W*C* __
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
149
1
A.
Through our own distribution company, Flintkote
2
Supply.
3
Q.
And where is Flintkote Supply located?
4
A.
They had -- Over a period of years, they have had
5
supply distribution centers in various locations, and then
6
some of them don't exist anymore. From one point in time
7
to another, we had Riverside, California; San Jose; San
8
Leandro; San Diego. And there were other locations in
9
California.
10
Q.
Do you recall the names of any of the building
11
material dealers that have offices in Northern California
12
or had distribution points in Northern California?
13
A.
Building material dealers. Malott and Peterson is
14
one.
15
Q.
They were a Flintkote distributor?
|
16
A.
Yes, sir.
I
Ji 17
Q.
Any others that come to mind?
j
18
A.
That's the only one that comes to my mind immediately.
19
MS. ANGER:
Would you repeat that name
20
again?
21
THE WITNESS:
Malott, M-a-l-o-t-t, and
22
Peterson.
23
MS. ANGER:
Thank you.
24
MR. JAMES MILLER: Q. Do you recall ever putting
25
or seeing a warning label placed on Flintkote's joint
!
* i 26
compound?
j
27
A.
I have never seen it literallyplaced on the
:
i
28
compound.
ClliM r L u 'J u IJ
> > er
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED Sh ORTHANO REPORTERS
150
1
Q.
Very funny.
2
MR. JUDY:
It was.
3
MR. JAMES MILLER:
Q. Do you recall seeing a
4
warning label on the container of Flintkote joint compound?
5
A.
In pictures, yes.
6
Q.
Can you tell us today approximately when that label
7
was first put on joint compound?
8
A.
I have to guess. It's in exhibits, but I'm guessing
9
now. Sometime in the early '70's.
10
Q.
At that time, were you selling dry joint compound
11
as well as ready-mixed or premixed compounds?
12
A.
I only know of dry at the early stages.
13
Q.
Do you know whether Flintkote ever produced a premix
14
or ready-mix?
15
A.
We did not produce -- We did not produce a dry mix.
16
Q.
Well, let me rephrase that. Thank you.
17
Did you ever sell a ready-mixed or premixed joint
18
compound?
19 A.
20
Q.
Yes. Approximately when did thatcome into your
product
21
line?
22
A.
To the best of my knowledge, sometime in the '60's.
23
Q.
Do you ever recall selling or distributing a fire
24
proofing spray to be sprayed on girders and that sort of
25
thing?
26
A.
No, sir.
27 Q.
Did you ever manufacture or sell a decorative ceiling
28
type spray?
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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1
A.
Yes.
2
Q.
Do you have any idea as to the time frame we'd be
3 talking about forthat product?
4 A. Again, I'dhave to guess. !!
j 5
MR. SCHROETER:
When you say guess, you mean
j 6
you can give us some estimate?
7
THE WITNESS:
Yes. The best estimate of
1
ji 8
my time span -- and again, it's in exhibits, so I'm --
j 9
in the '60's, mid-'60's.
j 10
MR. JAMES MILLER:
Q. It's my understanding that
11
the joint compounds that we've discussed, both the dry
i
12
and the ready-mixed, were asbestos containing. Do you share
Il
that understanding?
j
13
j 14
A.
Up until a certain point in time.
Q. 15
And approximately when was that point in time?
16
1975, 1977?
j
17
A.
'76 -- Around in 1976, asbestos was removed.
j 18
Q.
And did the decorative ceiling spray that we've
ij 19
discussed contain asbestos?
j 20
A.
I don't know for a fact whether it did or not.
I
21 Q. Do you know who manufactured that, whether that was I
in-house or whether that was rebranded by some other
j
22
I
23 supplier?
j 24
A.
It was not in-house manufactured.
25 Q. Who did manufacture it? |
26
A.
The only one I can say for sure that I knew made it
27
for us was the Texas Textured Paint Company in Dallas.
i
28
And now that Irecall, they did use asbestos fiber
|
i
I
___________________________________
I
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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1
in that product.
2
Q.
Did you buy any of that type of material from either
3
National Gypsum or U.S. Gypsum?
4
A.
I don't know for a fact.
i
5
"That type" being spray paint?
j
6
Q.
Well, I'm thinking of the decorative ceiling spray.
j
i
7
A.
Yeah; yeah.
j
i
8
Q.
Some of the answers to interrogatories are
j
i
9
information that has been referred to previously,
!
10
particularly the liquid products list. You talked about
I
j
I
11
things like Spraykote and other materials which were meant j
12
to be sprayed on, such as spray grade Railroad Car Cement, j
t
13
Black Joint Cement, Steadfast Cement, and Van Packer Cement --j
14
oh, that's not a spray. Were these dry products, Mr. Hooker? j i
.
I
15
A.
No, sir.
j
16
Q.
Were they already emulsified with some type of
[
j 17
asphaltic liquid at the time of deliverv to the customer?
i
l
18
A.
To be specific, some of them were what we call
I
19
cutbacks, which was solvent based, and others were emulsion j
j
20
based products made from asphalt.
j
i
21
Q.
Were any of them in powder form at the time of
22
delivery to the customer?
23
A.
None of the products you've mentioned.
24
Q.
Can you recall any products made or distributed
j
j 25 by Flintkote which were intended to be sprayed on that i
26
were dry when delivered to customers? Powder is what I'm
27
referring to when I say dry.
` ;
j
28
A.
Would have intended to be sprayed dry; is that the
j
I
______________ _____________________________ !
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES CERTIFIED SHORTMANO REPORTERS
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1
question?
2
Q.
No. Intended to be mixed by the customer but delivered
3
to him in the powder dry form.
4
A.
Oh. Only one that I can recall.
!
5
Q.
What is that, sir?
j
6
A.
Super Stakool, I believe.
j
I
7
Q.
What was the intended purpose of Super Stakool?
8
A.
Decorative and reflectancy for roof applications.
9
It's on that exhibit. The next page back.
10
Does that not state that it's a dry mix?
j
11
Q.
Yes.
j
I
12
A.
That's the only product that I know of.
13
MR. SCHROETER:
For the record, that's our
j
I
14
Exhibit 2 for this deposition.
I
15
MR. JAMES MILLER:
Correct.
>
i
16
THE WITNESS:
The only dry product on that
1
!
17
exhibit.
i !
18
MR. JAMES MILLER:
Q. Did Flintkote, to your
19
knowledge, ever own any interest in the Calaveras Cement
20
Company?
21
A.
Yes, sir.
22
Q.
Did Flintkote, to the best ofyourknowledge, ever
23
own any interest in the Calaveras Asbestos Company?
24
A.
No, sir.
25
Q.
Thank you very much, Mr.Hooker. That'sall I have.
26
MR. SCHROETER:
Back to you, Roman.
27
MR. SILBERFELD:
David is going to ask some
28
questions to clean up the areas w e 've a l r e a d y covered.
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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1
MR. SCHROETER:
Off the record.
2
(Whereupon, there was a discussion off the record.)
3
4
EXAMINATION BY MR. ROSEN
5
MR. ROSEN:
Q. Mr. Hooker, my name is
6
David Rosen, by the way, and I also represent some of the
7
plaintiffs in the Los Angeles area.
8
This morning, we were talking about some in-house
9
legal personnel of the Flintkote Company. And you mentioned
10
Seth Smith and Tony McCloud. Do you recall that?
11
A.
Yes.
12
Q.
You said that you aren't sure where McCloud is now.
13
Do you know if he's practicing law?
14
A.
I don't know for sure.
1$
Q.
Mr. Hooker, who is William H. Mortonson?
16
A.
Retired. Last responsibility was the manager of
17
our industrial products department of the Flintkote
18
Building Materials Division.
19
Q.
Did Mr. Mortonson ever have any responsibility during
20
your time with the company as manager of technical services
21
for The Flintkote Company?
22
A.
Yes.
23
Q.
In that capacity, did he have any responsibility
24
for the formulation or determining the formulation of any
25
of Flintkote's products?
26
A.
I can't answer that.
27
Q.
Based upon your knowledge of the company in all your
28
years with the Flintkote Company since '46, can you g i v e me
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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1
the names of any Flintkote employees who were responsible
2
for making decisions as to the formulation of Flintkote
3
products?
4
A.
Can you ask me what products?
j
5
Q.
If that will make it easier, sure.
6
A.
It's impossible for me to try to --
7
Q.
All right.
J 8
Is industrial products too large of a category, since j
9
that's one of your categories?
10
A.
No. That's fine.
11
Q.
Why don't we try that first.
12
A.
During the full period of my time withFlintkote?
j
13
Q.
At anytime.
j
14
A.
Jonathan Tanneman.
|
1
i 15
Q.
What was that last name?
\
16
A.
Tanneman, T-a-n-n-e-m-a-n.
j
i
17
And w e 're talking industrial products now?
j
18
Q.
Yes, sir.
19
A.
His superiors currently, Bill Bradley,Dr. John
i
20
Stanko, S-t-a-n-k-o.
21
I'm sorry, I can't pick anymore in that product
22
category. I can't name anymore in that product category.
23
Q.
Again, using that entire time span that you've been
24
with the company, can you give us the names of the persons
25
who were responsible for the formulation in your liquid
26
products category?
27
A.
Those are the ones I just names. Industrial and
28
liquid products are synonymous, as far as our company is
co co ccoo co
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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1
concerned.
2
Q.
Are you including in the industrial products
3
division or category the asbestos cement board?
4
A.
No, sir.
5
Q.
Can you give me some formulation personnel in that
6
category?
7
A.
I did not know who those people were.
8
Q.
Same question for asbestos cement pipe.
9
A.
No. I have forgotten their names -- his name.
10
Q.
The individual that you're thinking of whose name
11
you have forgotten, is he still in the position of --
12
A.
(Witness shakes head in a negative-manner.) He is
13
no longer with the company. We no longer make the product.
14
Q.
I think you mentioned earlier in your testimony that
15
Flintkote, around the time that you started with the
16
company in 1946, purchased the Flooring Division from
17
Tiletex; is that correct?
18
A.
Yes.
19
Q.
Do you have any knowledge as you sit here today
20
of the contract of sale between Tiletex and Flintkote for
21
that division?
22
A.
No, sir.
23
Q.
Do you know where a copy or the original of that
24
contract of sale would be stored today?
25
A.
Other than in corporate records, if it exists.
26
Q-
If it did exist, where would those corporate records
27
be?
28
A.
I don't know.
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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1
Q.
Also with respect to the years around 1946 when
2
you first started with the company in the Vernon facility,
j 3
you mentioned that one of the operations of the Vernon
J 4
facility was a paper mill; is that correct?
i
5
A.
Yes, sir.
j
I
6
Q.
And then I think later on in your testimony you
j
l
I
7
referred to the manufacture of felt at the Vernon facility; ;
iJ
8
is that correct?
j
9
A.
Yes.
!
j
10
Q.
Was the manufacture of the felt at the Vernon
11
facility a function of the paper mill?
j
12
A.
Yes, sir.
!
13
Q.
Did that felt containasbestos?
j
14
A.
No, sir.
I
15
Q.
During the time that you were assistantdirector
!
16
of purchasing between '52 and '56, you stated that your
17
company purchased chrysotile asbestos in a very large
j
18
proportion from Flintkote Mines, but also that some of that j
19
type of product was purchased from Atlas Asbestos and
!
1
20
Pacific Asbestos. Do you recall that?
j
21
A.
Yes, sir.
j
22
Q.
Are you able, as you sit here today, to tell us
23
whether Flintkote purchased more chrysotile from Atlas
24
Asbestos or Pacific Asbestos during those years?
25
A.
I can't remember.
j
i
26
Q.
You indicated earlier in your testimony that the
'
- i
27
sanding of floor tile was not an accepted practice. Do
28
you recall that?
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHANO REPORTERS
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158
1
A.
Yes, sir.
2
Q.
And I think you further indicated that that was
3
true, as far as you were concerned, since the 1940's.
j
4
A.
Yes, sir.
j
I
5
Q.
Why, if you know as you sit here today, w a s t h e
j
i
6
sanding of floor tile not an accepted practice in the
j
i
7
1940's?
|
j
8
A.
The questions that were presented to roe a t t h a t
j
9
time came in the sequence which my responses need t o b e
j
10
corrected.
11
In sanding any product, dust is created a n d a
j
12
potential hazard exists. And in 1946 and up u n t i l t h e
13
time when we became more aware of the hazards o f a s b e s t o s
14
fiber, dust was the problem, be it -- or the i s s u e , b e i t
j
I
15
in the product or other places.
16
And when we later put a label on our floor tile,
j
i
17
it related to asbestos dust. This label was p u t o n s o m e t i m e ;
18
in the '70's.
\
i
19
Q.
You're referring to a warning label now? E x c u s e m e .
j
20
A.
Yes. Yes, sir.
21
So as a general rule, sanding of floor t i l e j u s t
22
was not an accepted practice. Back in the early days, i t
j
i
23
was for dust reasons.
|
24
Will you gofrom there with your questioning?
j
25
Q.
Are you through with youranswer?
26
A.
Yes.
27
Q* .
Sure.
Ii
I
28
During the time that y o u w e re with The Flintkote
!
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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FLD 0 0 0 0 3 TS?
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I
Company in any capacity from 1946 to the present, did you
2
at anytime become aware of which trade, which labor trade,
3
would be caused to use Flintkote floor tiles in the course
4
and scope of their employment?
5
A.
Not specifically.
6
Q.
Are you familiar with the trade offloor covering?
7
A.
Yes, sir.
8
Q.
It's true, isn't it, that floor coverers, during
9
the entire time you've been with The Flintkote Company,
10
are caused to use floor covering products, including those
11
which are manufactured by The Flintkote Company in the
12
course and scope of their manufacturing?
13
A.
Yes, sir.
14
Q.
You're aware that floorcoverers, in the course and
15
scope of using floor cover products, including those
16
manufactured by Flintkote, sand those products?
17
A.
Not as a generalpractice.
18
Q.
Just so it's clear for the record, I'm not asking
19
you whether you consider it an accepted practice. I'm
20
asking you whether you are aware if the sanding takes place.
21
A.
I can only answer that on the basis that it could
22
take place. I have never seen it done.
23
Q.
At anytime during your employment with The Flintkote
24
Company, did the floor covering products that The Flintkote
25
Company made contain linoleum?
26
A.
No, sir.
27
Q.
Did those samefloor covering products contain
28
vinyl?
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHANQ REPORTERS
FvAH 6019o3o5
FLO 00003190
16 C
1
A.
Yes, sir. That is, our floor tile -- it being the
2
same -- contained vinyl.
3
Q.
That's what I'm asking, sir.
4
And it's true, isn't it, that the vinyl floor
5
covering products that The Flintkote Company manufactured
6
also contained asbestos?
7
A.
Yes, sir.
8
Q.
We were talking earlier about Exhibit B to your
9
answers to our interrogatories, which I don't know if we
10
have numbered for the purpose of this deposition. Exhibit B
11
was the exhibit we were discussing during Mr. Miller's
12
questioning.
13
MR. SCHROETER:
Why don't you separate it,
14
and let's make it Exhibit 3 to this depo.
15
MR. ROSEN:
Off the record.
16
(Whereupon, there was a discussion off the record.)
17
(WHEREUPON, A PHOTOCOPY OF
A TWO-PAGE DOCUMENT ENTITLED
18
"SUMMARY OF FIBER USED BY THE
FLINTKOTE COMPANY (1961-1971
19
INCLUSIVE)" WAS MARKED AS
PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 3 FOR
20
IDENTIFICATION.)
21
MR. ROSEN:
Back on the record.
22
We have identified now as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 3 for
23
this deposition the two-page document which is entitled
24
"Summary of Fiber Used by The Flintkote Company" between
25
'61 and '71, inclusive, and which was also attached as
26
Exhibit B to Flintkote's answers to the St. Jacque and
27
Beauregard answers to interrogatories.
28
Q.
Sir, you have that document in front of you now?
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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1
A.
Yes, sir.
2
Q.
Did you prepare that document?
3
A.
4
Q.
5
A.
6
Q.
No, sir. Do you know who did? No, sir. Was it prepared at your direction?
7
A.
No, sir.
8
Q.
If you look at the producers of asbestos fiber
9
that are listed on the two-page document, Flmtkote Mines, j i
i
10
Limited is not listed; is that correct?
!
11
A.
Yes, sir.
12
Q.
You have testified today, however, that Flintkote
13
Mines, Limited was a major supplier of fiber used by
14
The Flintkote Company during the years this exhibit purports
15
to discuss; is that correct?
16
A.
Correct.
17
Q.
Do you know if this exhibit was prepared for use
j
18
in answering interrogatories in this litigation?
19
A.
I don't know.
iI
20
Q.
You have --
|
21
A.
In what question -- What question is this exhibit
22
being used to answer?
23
Q.
Well, for example, in the interrogatories that my
24
office propounded in the St. Jacque and Beauregard caption,
25
in answer to question No. 1 as to who was preparing the
26
answers, your name was listed.
j
27
A.
That's fine. Accept it.
i
28
Q.
And Exhibit B is referred to, among other places,
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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1
Flintkote Company between 1946 and 1960?
2
A.
Yes.
3
Q.
4
A.
It's two pages. Yes, they were.
5
Q.
Sir, I think you've testified a number of times
6
today that one of your responsibilities in the last couple
7
of years has been preparing responses to requests for
8
admissions and interrogatories; is that correct?
9
A.
Yes, sir.
10
Q.
Is there anybody else from The Flintkote Company
11
that works with you in preparing those responses?
12
And I'm referring now to employees of The Flintkote Company, j
13
A.
Only as I request that they assist me.
j
14
Q.
Could you give us the names of the people that have |
i
15
assisted you in that effort, any names that you can remember? j
i
16
And I'll exclude people that typed the answers. People
j
17
that found information relating to the answers.
i
)
18
A.
Our advertising manager in connection with certain
19
questions. Depended on the question, depended upon who
j
i
20
I went to to get help. Could have been the advertising
j
21
manager, the product manager, the manufacturing manager.
22
It could have been the safety director. It could have been
23
a purchasing agent at a plant level. It could have been
I
24
the research and development representative for that
25
particular product which was involved. I could even go
26
to the accounting department and ask for help on whatever
j
i 27
records they might have in order to develop answers to
!
28
either interrogatories or requests for admissions. I bet
j
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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1
you I've had thirty, forty people that I could conceivably
2
and have gone to, depending on what the question is.
3
Q.
Is it fair to state that you have the responsibility,
4
in addition to stating facts which are known to you
5
personally --
6
A.
Yes, sir.
7
Q.
-- to gather information from the company at large
8
to answer these kinds of interrogatories or requests for
9
admissions?
10
A.
Yes. I think I understand your question. It is
11
my responsibility to assist our legal counsel and advisers
12
in preparing responses to questions asked, either in the
13
requests for admissions or interrogatories.
14
Q.
Is there any other Flintkote Company employee who
15
has the responsibility similar to yours, to simply gather
16
the facts necessary to respond to interrogatories or requests
17
for admissions in this litigation? I'm trying to --
18
A.
Other than legal counsel, I don't know of anyone.
19
Q.
Now you mentioned that in gathering facts necessary
20
to respond to these discovery items, you consulted with,
21
among other departments, I'm sure, the advertising manager,
22
the manufacturing manager, the safety director, the pur
23
chasing agents at various divisions, the research and
24
development reps at various divisions, and perhaps even
25
the accounting department. I assume from the tense of your
26
answer that you were referring to people who currently hold
27
these positions in The Flintkote Company; is that correct?
Cfli-0
28
A.
Not in every case.
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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1
Q.
For example, have you ever gone to a former or
2
former safety directors of The Flintkote Company for help
3
in answering these discovery items?
4
A.
Not a safety director.
5
Q.
Who's the current safety director of The Flintkote
j
i
6
Company?
j
7
A.
John Schmitt.
i
8
Q.
Have you ever gone to any former manufacturing
'
S
9
managers of the company for this purpose?
i
10
A.
Not that I recall.
!
11
Q.
Who are the current manufacturing managers to whom
12
you've gone for help in responding to the discovery items
13
we've discussed?
14
A.
Bill Carl at the Vernon, California, plant. Mario
j
15
Butera, B-u-t-e-r-a, who is now located in the Irving
16
office. I can't name specifically anybody else.
17
Q.
In the manufacturing department?
j
18
A.
Specifically in manufacturing.
19
Q.
Who are the purchasing agents to whom you've gone
!
20
for help in answering --
21
A.
I would have gone to Bob Knode, Harry T. Campbell;
22
I have gone to Malcolm Fogel, who's now retired from
23
Floor Tile, and I would have gone to Bert Scandelle, who
j
24
is now retired in the Pioneer Division. I currently go
25
to Jane Boyd, who is now at the Vernon, California, plant.
26
Q.
27
I'm sorry, sir. Boyd.
What was that last, name? ! xni -?= rrrLLj Ltrv'1 M0G3194
28
No longer with the company, Charlie White, who
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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1
was with Orangeburg. Frank MacDonell, who was purchasing
2
agent for Orangeburg.
3
I'm running out of names.
4
Q.
I think I asked you before, sir, if The Flintkote
5
Company made any linoleum floor tile products, and your
6
answer was in the negative.
7
A.
That is correct.
!
8
Q.
Did Flintkote Company evermanufacture anylinoleum
1
9
floor coverings?
10
A.
No, sir.
!
j
11
Q.
Earlier today, whenwe were discussing your knowledge
I
12
relating to the nature of risks related to exposure to
i
13
asbestos, you mentioned that as you gradually learned that .
14
there was some risk to miners and then manufacturers and
i !
15
finally users of finished products containing asbestos,
l
16
you were aware generally that there was a risk of lung
i
17
disease and there was a mention of cancer. Is that a
j
i
18
fair characterization?
j
19
MR. SCHROETER:
Wait a minute. The answer to j
20
that, if you listened to that, he said he heard those things j
21
mentioned.
I
(
22
MR. ROSEN:
That's what I meant.
J
23
THE WITNESS:
I agree.
24
MR. ROSEN:
Q. Have you ever heard of a
i
25
disease called asbestosis?
i
26
A.
Yes, sir. Before I heard lung cancer.
!
27
Q.
Have you ever heard or do you have any knowledge as * ; I
28
you sit h e r e today that exposure to asbestos carries with
j
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
OfCOcifo,
167
1
it a risk of cancer originating in organs other than the
2
lung?
3
A.
As I sit here today?
4
Q.
Yes, sir.
5
A.
I have heard opinions orread .opinions that it does. i
i
6
Q.
When did you first become aware or read an opinion
j
r
7
that exposure to asbestos potentially carried with it a
8
risk of cancer to organs other than the lung?
9
A.
Sometime during my association withAsbestos
10
Information Association, starting in the early '70's.
i
S 11
Q.
Sir, are you familiar with the Resilient Floor
j
j
12
Covering Institute, the RFCI?
13
A.
Yes, sir.
j
14
Q.
15
A.
Has Flintkote ever been a member of that organization? j
I
Yes, sir.
Ii
i
16
Q.
If you know, when did Flintkote first become a member j
I
17
of the RFCI?
j
18
A.
I cannot recall. It's in exhibits which you have
j
19
here. I'd have to guess, if you want me to.
j
i
20
Q.
Well, if it's a reasonable estimate, go ahead.
j
21
A.
Well, as I said, it's in exhibits. 1960's until
22
we closed our Los Angeles -- the last plant in 1981.
23
Q.
Are you aware of any studies which were made or
i
24
commissioned by the Resilient Floor Covering Institute
j
i
25
with respect to asbestos health hazards associated with
!
26
the use of asbestos-containing floor tiles?
27
A.
Not as to health hazards as such.
28
Q.
Do you know whether the RFCI ever conducted or
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED Sh o r t h a n d REPORTERS
FvAM 6i 9333s
FLD
G0 003 198
168
1
commissioned any tests relating to removal procedures of
2
asbestos-containing floor tiles?
3
A.
I am aware that RFCI commissioned somebody to do
4
some tests in connection with the amount of dust created
5
under certain circumstances connected with floor tile. I
6
do not know those specific circumstances. I would go that !
7
far. Some report has been made. Some study has been made. !
8
Q.
Do you recall when that study was made? If you
9
want to give us a decade or a year --
10
A.
Within the last ten years.
j
11
Q.
I Do you have any knowledge as to the results of that j
I
12
study?
:
13
A.
I don't remember what the results were specifically.
14
Q.
Are you familiar with a document entitled "Recommended \
i
15
Work Procedures for Resilient Floor Covering"?
16
A.
Not specifically.
i
i
17
Q.
Do you associate that document title with the RFCI?
18
A.
Either with the RFCI or AIA. I'm not certain who
j
19
prepared it.
20
Q.
Do you know if anybody from The Flintkote Company
j
I
21
participated in the preparation of the document that I just |
22
referred to?
j
23
A.
Not specifically.
24
Q.
That is, that you're not sure, or they did not?
'
25
A.
I am saying I don't know who would have participated
26
in it by name.
27
Q.
Incidentally, sir, in some of your answers today,
,
` I
28
you have stated for the record that the answer, the
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED s h o r t h a n o r e p o r t e r s
I-v AH FLD
Ul>`3 d i5 G000319?
168
1
commissioned any tests relating to removal procedures of
2
asbestos-containing floor tiles?
3
A.
I am aware that RFCI commissioned somebody to do
4
some tests in connection with the amount of dust created
5
under certain circumstances connected with floor tile. I
6
do not know those specific circumstances. I would go that i
i
7
far. Some report has been made. Some study has been made. :
j1
8
Q.
Do you recall when that study was made? If you
9
want to give us a decade or a year --
|
10
A.
Within the last ten years.
j
!
11
Q.
Do you have any knowledge as to the results of that
j
I
12
study?
j
13
A.
I don't remember what the results were specifically. i
i 14
Q.
Are you familiar with a document entitled "Recommended ;
15
Work Procedures for Resilient Floor Covering"?
1
16
A.
Not specifically.
j
17
Q.
Do you associate that document title with the RFCI?
18
A.
Either with the RFCI or AIA. I'm not certain who
j
19
prepared it.
20
Q.
Do you know if anybody from The Flintkote Company
j
21
participated in the preparation of the document that I just j
j 22
referred to?
I
23
A.
Not specifically.
24
Q.
That is, that you're not sure, or they did not?
25
A.
I am saying I don't know who would have participated
26
in it by name.
27
Q.
Incidentally, sir, in some of your answers today,
,
` I
28
you have stated for the record that the answer, the
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES CERTIFIED SHORThano REPORTERS
Fl'AM 0194345 FID 0000319?
168
1
commissioned any tests relating to removal procedures of
2
asbestos-containing floor tiles?
3
A.
I am aware that RFCI commissioned somebody to do
4
some tests in connection with the amount of dust created
5
under certain circumstances connected with floor tile. I
6
do not know those specific circumstances. I would go that \
7
far. Some report has been made. Some study has been made. j
8
Q.
Do you recall when that study was made? If you
j
j 9
want to give us a decade or a year --
|
I
10
A.
Within the last ten years.
I
11
Q.
Do you have any knowledge as to the results of that I
12
study?
:
13
A.
I don't remember what the results were specifically.
i
14
Q.
Are you familiar with a document entitled "Recommended j
i
1$
Work Procedures for Resilient Floor Covering"?
;
16
A.
Not specifically.
j
17
Q.
Do you associate that document title with the RFCI?
18
A.
Either with the RFCI or AIA. I'm not certain who
|
19
prepared it.
20
Q.
Do you know if anybody from The Flintkote Company
j
21
participated in the preparation of the document that I just
22
referred to?
23
A.
Not specifically.
24
Q.
That is, that you're not sure, or they did not?
i
25
A.
I am saying I don't know who would have participated
26
in it by name.
27
Q.
Incidentally, sir, in some of your answers today,
,
I
28
you have stated for the record that the answer, the
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
.................................. ...
FvAM 6 0 1 V 'o 3 i5
FLD 0000319?
169
1
specific answer to a question would appear in the exhibits.
2
A.
Yes, sir.
3
Q.
Is it safe for us to assume that when you use that
4
phrase, the exhibits, you are referring to exhibits Flintkote
5
Company has made to their interrogatory responses?
6
A.
Yes, sir. Some of the exhibits have been presented,
7
and they're already here as exhibits. Some of the informa
8
tion is here.
9
Q.
Were you ever advised or informed that asbestos'
10
fibers could be released from asbestos-containing floor
11
tiles by the normal wear associated with walking on that
12
floor tile?
13
A.
No, sir.
14
Q.
Have you ever heard of or are you familiar with a
15
report entitled "Annual Report from the Consel Superier
16
d*Hygiene Publique de France"?
17
A.
No, sir.
18
Q.
Have you ever heard of a report relating to health
19
hazards associated with exposure to floor tile, which is
20
commonly referred to as "The French Report"?
21
A.
No, sir.
22
Q.
Sir, do you know a gentleman named BobScigney,
23
S-c-i-g-n-e-y?
24
A.
Yes, I've seen the name and may have met him.
25
Q.
Mr. Scigney is connected with one of The Flintkote
26
Company's insurance carriers, is he not?
27
A.
Yes, sir.
28
Q.
Are you aware of any studies which have been
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
C E ft TiF iC O Sh o T h a n o E P O T E R S
F v AH
\l" . 1.
nr, nQU v
170
1
conducted by Mr. Scigney or at his direction or commission
2
relating to health hazards associated with exposure to
3
asbesto-containing floor tile?
4
A.
No.
5
Q.
Are you familiar with or aware of any studies which
6
were conducted by Mr. Scigney or at his direction relating
7
to the French study that I mentioned before?
8
A.
No, sir.
9
MR. SCHROETER:
10
may be.
Whatever that French study
11
MR. ROSEN:
Q. Is there a medical
12
director in The Flintkote Company now?
,
i
13
A.
No, sir.
|
14
Q.
Has The Flintkote Company ever employed a person
j
15
in the capacity of medical director?
i
i
16
A.
Not to my knowledge.
j
17
Q.
Has The Flintkote Company ever required regular
j
!
18
physical examination for any of its employees?
j
19
A.
Only as I have been advised. I have been advised
!
!
20
that -- yes, that medical exams for their employees have
j
}1
21
been required.
|
j 22
Q.
Do you know during what period of time those
I
23
examinations have been required?
24
A.
No, I do not.
j
25
Q.
Do you know whether those examinations were
26
required for any particular types or classes of employees
27
within The Flintkote Company?
' j
i 28
A.
I only know that they -- whatever the OSHA
__________________________________ __ _________________________ J
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES CERTIFIEDShORTMANO REPORTERS
. n. ,3 ,3 5
Fr'j1Afftt '1)0Uu0~'I
171
1
regulations required, The Flintkote Company complied with.
2
Q.
So if physical examinations were not specifically
3
required by OSHA regulations, The Flintkote Company did not
4
require them?
5
A.
That is not so. I don't know that answer.
6
Q.
Did The Flintkote Company ever have any corporate
7
connection with the Diamond Portland Cement Company?
8
A.
Yes, sir.
9
Q.
Are you aware of the common trade name for any of
10
the products produced by that concern?
11
A.
Only as Diamond Cement.
12
Q.
Have you ever heard of Blue Diamond Cement?
13
A.
That's not the same company.
14
Q.
You are sure that it's not the same company?
15
A.
Yes, sir.
16
Q.
Have you ever --
17
A.
The Diamond Cement Company was a wholly owned
18
subsidiary of The Flintkote Company. Blue Diamond was
19
an acquisition, and it was not Portland Cement. It was
20
Gypsum.
21
Q.
Blue Diamond, however, was also a wholly owned
22
subsidiary of The Flintkote Company?
23
A.
I can't answer whether there was any period when
24
it was a division -- I mean, it was a wholly owned subsidiary
25
or it immediately became a division. I don't know that.
26
It was part of Flintkote. And in what form it was in, I
27
don't know whether it was a division or a wholly owned
28
subsidiary.
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED Sh O RTh ANO REPORTERS
=vAM 6 Q i ? 3 3 3 5 F'LD 00003202
]
Q-
Is Blue Diamond currently a part of Flintkote?
2
A.
Blue Diamond -- The name "BlueDiamond" is no longer
\
3
used by Flintkote. Its facility is still in operation as
4
the Gypsum Board plant in Blue Diamond, Nevada.
j
5
Q.
During what period of years was Blue Diamond a
j
6
part of Flintkote?
j
7
A.
Still is, starting time in the '50's when we acquired 1
i
8
Blue Diamond.
9
Q.
Thank you very much, sir.
j
i
10
A.
Uh-huh.
!
I
11
MR. SCHROETER:
Mr. Rosen, to complete the
j
i
12
record you've so carefully tried to make, would you tell
(
1
13
the record who the author of that so-called French report
14
that you were referring towas?
j
15
MR. ROSEN:
I think it's the French
16
Government. I thinkI saidthat, too.
|
j
17
MR. SCHROETER:
Well, that's when you were
j
i
18
speaking French.
19
MR. ROSEN:
A very charitable admission
;
!
20
by you.
j
I
21
The report, once again, in English, I think would
|
j
22
translate as the Annual Report from the Superior Counsel
23
of Hygiene of France.
24
MR. SCHROETER:
I see. And it has no author
25
MR. ROSEN:
Well, it has no individual
26
author that I'm aware of. I 'm sure it does have an author.
27
MR. SCHROETER:
And that is the item that
28
you spoke of as the, q u o t e , "French Report," unquote?
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
f , a*
FLO
m m }*
U UU u o i u -
173
1
MR. ROSEN:
That's my belief.
2
MR. SILBERFELD:
The French have a different
3
word for everything.
A
Anybody else want to ask anything before I go on?
5
(No response from the floor.)
6
(WHEREUPON, A PHOTOCOPY OF A
ONE-PAGE DOCUMENT ENTITLED
7
"CONTAINS ASBESTOS DUST" WAS
MARKED AS PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT
8
NO. 4 FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
i
9
10
FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR. SILBERFELD
11
MR. SILBERFELD:
I have marked as Plaintiffs'
12
Exhibit 4 a copy of what appears to be a label. It just
13
says, quote, "Contains Asbestos Dust," closed quote.
14
Q.
Let me show this to you, Mr. Hooker, and ask if you
15
recognize it.
16
A.
I do not know what that relates to.
17
Q.
If I suggest to you that this was part of the
18
documents produced by Flintkote, does that help in any way
19
in identifying whether that was a label ever used by
20
Flintkote for anything?
21
A.
I don't recall of seeing it before.
22
Q.
Moving right along, let me mark as Plaintiffs'
23
No. 5 another label that begins with the word "Caution."
24
It is not dated, and the exhibit has at the top in
25
handwriting the words, "Asbestos Caution Label," and
26
it's circled, is the best way I can identify it.
27
Let me show that to you, sir.
28
///////
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
'r i
H
174
1
(WHEREUPON, A PHOTOCOPY OF A
ONE-PAGE DOCUMENT ENTITLED
2
"CAUTION," AND WITH THE WORDS,
"ASBESTOS CAUTION LABEL" IN
3
HANDWRITING AND CIRCLED AT THE
j
TOP OF THE PAGE, WAS MARKED AS
j
4
PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 5 FOR
IDENTIFICATION.)
5
6
MR. SILBERFELD:
7
before?
Q. Have you seen that document j i
8
A.
I can't relate it to a product. Ihavenever seen
|
l1
9
this specific document. This is the first that I recall.
10
Q.
Do you see the handwriting at the top that is not
11
mine?
j
12
A.
Yes.
|
13
Q.
Do you recognize the handwriting?
.
14
A.
No, sir.
j
15
Q.
It's not your handwriting?
I
16
A.
No, sir.
|
17
Q.
From the language of this label, are you able to
!
18
identify it in terms of when it would have been used at
19
Flintkote, if atall?
j
i
20
A.
I don't know what product it would have been then
21
used for. It could have been used -- It could have been
22
used for a joint compound. It might have even been used
23
for an asbestos cement product of some sort. Those are the
i
24
only two products Iwould think it would specifically
!
25
pertain to.
!
I
26
Q.
Let me mark as Plaintiffs' No. 6 another label
- I
27
which has at the top the word "Asbestos" and a square on
'
28
end in the form of a diamond with numbers and circles on it.
a t cm
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES CERTIFIED SHORTHANO REPORTERS
. ... FwAH 60 cj_r>
175
1
(WHEREUPON, A PHOTOCOPY OF A
ONE-PAGE DOCUMENT ENTITLED
2
"ASBESTOS" WAS MARKED AS
PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 6
3
FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
4
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. I'll show that to you and
5
ask you if you recognize it.
6
A.
I am quite certain that comes from the Consumer
7
Protective Products Association in which they establish
8
certain codes which give the degree of hazard, and this
9
was disseminated in our company as it might have been
10
appropriate. I believe that's the Consumer Protective
11
Products Association label.
12
Q.
Do you know whether the label, as shown in Exhibit
13
No. 6, was ever used on any Flintkote product?
14
A.
I don't recall of it ever being used, as far as I'm
15
concerned. Without the instructions of where to use that
16
particular label, I couldn't even hazard a guess.
17
Q.
Do you have an understanding of what thenumbers --
18
A.
No.
19
Q.
-- mean?
20
A.
I've readit at one time and forgotten it. Idon't
21
know what it means.
22
Q.
Let me mark as Plaintiffs' No. 7 a label that looks
23
like it's about three inches by five inches and begins with
24
the word "Caution."
25
(WHEREUPON, A PHOTOCOPY OF A
ONE-PAGE DOCUMENT ENTITLED
26
"CAUTION" WAS MARKED AS
PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 7
27
FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
28
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. I'll ask you if you
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
c e r t if ie d Sh o r t h a n d r e p o r t e r s
^ am 0193335
f-D
0C0Q3204
1 176
1
recognize that.
2
A.
I don't know where it was used or if it was used,
3
in fact-
4
Q.
In that part of the warning label development, did
5
you play a role there?
I
6
A.
No.
|
I
7
Q.
Do you recall whether you considered this language
;
i
8
as part of the label that Flintkote would ultimately use
9
or not?
10
A.
To the best of my knowledge, wording of that type
j
11
was considered in the technical committees for AIA, as
|
12
well as internally in our organization. It's the typical
13
wording for potentially hazardous products.
j
ji
14
Q.
Do you know whether the warning label that was
!
15
ultimately adopted by Flintkote was identical in every
j
l
16
respect to the warning label which the technical committee |
17
of AIA developed?
I
j 18
A.
Oh, I don't know whether it was, in fact, or not.
j
19
Q.
In terms of the work you did with regard to the
|
20
warning label language on Flintkote's behalf, did you have !
21
any input in the sizes of the label?
ji
22
A.
Yes, in conjunction with their being printed on
j
23
labels which I purchased for our products.
24
Q.
Do you recall whether the AIA technical committee
25
recommended a certain minimum size for the warning label?
:
26
A.
I don't recall that AIA ever did that.
!
I
27
Q.
Do you recall the actual size of the label that
. ;j
28
w a s u s e d by Flintkote?
|
I
-J CM
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
certified shorthano reporters
01933 FID 000032
177
1
A.
No, I don't remember the exact size.
2
Q.
Did it vary from product to product?
3
A.
Yes, sir.
4
Q.
Did the size of the label bear some significance
5
to the size of the container involved?
6
A.
If I recall correctly, the size of the warning label
7
related to the total size of the label, and it had to stand
8
out on its own. Depending on how big is the label, it had
9
to have -- it was -- as I recall, it had to stand out.
10
Q.
What specifically was done to attempt to have the
11
label stand out? Do you recall that, sir?
12
A.
Only in general as I had been involved in warning
13
labels, we either gave them a certain size, we boxed them
14
into one degree or another. We made the heading, the
15
word "Caution" in large letters, so that it would catch the
16
applicator's eye.
17
Q.
Anything else, sir?
18
A.
That's basically....
19
Q.
Let me mark as Plaintiffs' No. 8 another label which
20
looks like it's about three inches by six inches and begins
21
with the words, "Asbestos Fibers Present," and then it has
22
some handwriting to the right of the printed matter.
23
(WHEREUPON, A PHOTOCOPY OF A
ONE-PAGE DOCUMENT WHICH BEGINS
24
WITH THE WORDS, "ASBESTOS FIBERS
PRESENT," WITH HANDWRITING TO
25
THE RIGHT OF THE PRINTED MATTER,
WAS MARKED AS PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT
26
NO. 8 FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
27
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. Can you identify that, sir?
28
A.
I can't identify where it came from.
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHANO REPORTERS
178
1
Q.
As far as you know, has that label, as shown in
2
Exhibit NO- 8, ever been used on any Flintkote product?
3
A.
Not to my knowledge. I've never seen it as a product
4
label.
5
Q.
Do you recognize the handwriting to the right of
6
the printed material?
7
A.
No, sir.
8
Q.
Let me mark as Plaintiffs' No. 9 what appears to be
9
a memorandum dated November 17, 1971, to a Mr. Adams at
10
East Rutherford from a Mr. Fogarty of White Plains. Let
11
me show you this.
12
(WHEREUPON, A PHOTOCOPY OF A
ONE-PAGE MEMORANDUM DATED
13
NOVEMBER 17, 1971, TO MR. J. R.
ADAMS FROM JOSEPH E. FOGARTY,
14
WAS MARKED AS PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT
NO. 9 FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
15
16
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. I'll let you take a look
17
at it for a minute.
;
18
A.
(Witness examining document.)
j
j
19
Yes, sir.
j
20
Q.
Have you seen thatbefore today?
i
i
21
A.
No, sir.
f
22
Q.
Can you identify who Mr.Adams was?
23
A.
Product manager.
24
Q.
At the East Rutherford plant?
25
A.
Corporate -- I beg your pardon. Mr. Adams was in
26
East Rutherford, yes, sir. He was the product manager in
27
East Rutherford.
28
Q.
For what product?
I M 6 0 ! * 0 ^3 uy
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
179
1
A.
Roofing products.
2
Q.
Asbestos containing as well as non-asbestos-
3
containing?
4
A.
Yes, sir.
5
Q.
And who is Mr. Fogarty?
6
A.
Legal counsel in the corporate office.
7
Q.
Did you know Mr. Adams?
8
A.
Yes, sir.
9
Q.
Do you recall ever discussing with Mr. Adams the
10
content of any warning labels?
11
A.
No, sir.
12
Q.
What was the "Reliance" brand product?
Do you
13
recall that, sir?
14
A.
No, I do n 't.
15
Q.
Was it a roofing product?
16
A.
I 'm not certain whether it's a Flintkote brand.
17
I can't answer that. I don't where the word "Reliance"
18
comes from.
19
Q.
Do you recall whether the Trowel Plastic Cement
20
and Ply Adhesive were Flintkote products?
21
A.
As generic products, we made them.
22
Q.
Do you know whether they were asbestos-containing?
23
A.
24
Q.
Yes, sir. Yes, they were?
25
A.
Yes, sir.
26
Q.
Both products?
27
A.
To the best of my knowledge, both of them had
28
asbestos.
F'.'A il 6 0 1 ? 3
;i c .o
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
C E R T iF ieo s h o r t h a n d r e p o r t e r s
180
1
Q.
Was the Asphalt Roof Coating product asbestos
2
containing?
3
A.
Some of them had asbestos; some did not.
4
Q.
The memo has a bcc to Mr. G. G. Curry. Do you know
5
who that was?
6
A.
Mr. Fogarty's boss, vice president and chief counsel
7
for The Flintkote Company.
8
Q.
In those instances where you had some input into
9
language of warning labels, did you interface with legal
10
counsel on that subject, sir?
11
A.
Yes, sir.
12
Q.
Who specifically did you deal with?
13
A.
Depending on the period in time and who was in the
14
secretary's office as his -- on his legal staff. I would
15
interface with Mr. Fogarty. I might interface with
16
Mr. Curry. I might even interface with other people on
17
the legal staff. It was our policy to send our labels
18
through -- any new designable labels to our legal staff
19
for approval.
20
Q.
Do you recall whether any of the suggestions you
21
made with respect to language on any warning labels were
22
either accepted or rejected by legal counsel?
23
A.
Specifically, no.
24
Q.
I 'll have marked as Plaintiffs' No.10, Mr.Hooker,
25
a copy of a document on The Flintkote Company interoffice
26
correspondence. It's directed to Mr. Opila --
27
A.
Opila.
28
Q.
-- Opila from A. R. Hooker,Jr., dated April 21, 1972.
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
181
1
A memo and an attachment to it, which is a copy of one page
2
of the Employment Safety and Health Guide.
3
(WHEREUPON, A PHOTOCOPY OF A
ONE-PAGE MEMORANDUM ON THE
4
LETTERHEAD OF THE FLINTKOTE
COMPANY, DATED APRIL 21, 1972,
1
5
TO MR. E. A. OPILA, FROM A. R.
j
HOOKER, JR., AND A PHOTOCOPY
|
6
OF ONE PAGE FROM THE EMPLOYMENT
j
SAFETY AND HEALTH GUIDE ENTITLED
j
7
"NEW DEVELOPMENTS," WERE MARKED
I
AS PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 10
I
8
FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
9
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. Let me show you that and
10
ask you to review it for a moment.
11
A.
(Witness examining document.)
j
12
Yes, sir.
13
Q.
14
A.
You've had a chance to look at it? Yes.
15
Q.
First of all, to the right of the date there's
1
16
some handwriting. Do you recognize the handwriting?
17
A.
No, sir.
18
Q.
At the bottom of the page there'sa signature. I
j
19
think it says "Art." Is that your hand?
;
20
A.
I'm Art .
21
Q.
Who is Mr. Opila, the person to whom it was addressed? j
ii
22
A.
Manufacturing manager for floor tile.
23
Q.
Corporate or a particular plant?
i
24
A.
No. In division.
j
I
25
Q.
Which division?
!
26
A.
The Flooring Division.
j
t
27
Q.
And was Mr. Opila responsible for all flooring
28
manufacturing operations?
______ .
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHANO REPORTERS
FyAH
.p -> n
\
_____| i 0 ! y3, o ,
r. o
182
1
A.
For most of the time, no. I believe that late in
2
his assignment he was responsible for all locations. I
3
hestiate, because the Los Angeles plant was on its own for
4
awhile. And whether he ever had the Los Angeles floor
5
covering plant under his jurisdiction, I do not know for
6
sure.
7
Q.
Where did Mr. Opila hang his hat?
8
A.
Chicago Heights.
9
Q.
The memo begins with reference to his letter of
10
April 17th, which unfortunately we don't have. Do you
11
recall the substance of it?
12
A.
No.
13
Q.
It seems to say something about shipments from
14
Carey, as well as markings on bags of asbestos and related
15
problems of complying with OSHA. Do you know whether,
16
prior to receiving the letter and replying to it in this
17
memo form, you and Mr. Opila had ever discussed markings
18
on bags of asbestos and related problems of OSHA?
19
A.
Not specifically; not specifically.
20
Q.
The second paragraph discusses finding an approved
21
method of loading and bracing railroad cars shipped by Carey.
22
Does that refresh your memory in any way that there was a
23
problem in that respect?
24
A.
Yes.
25
Q.
And what is that, sir?
26
A.
Dust. Breakage of bags and dust.
27
Q.
And who reported thatto you?
28
A.
I don't know specifically, other than Mr. Opila.
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHANO REPORTERS
f a m FLD
0193335
00003213
183
1
Q.
The memo goes on to say that Mr. Opila apparently
2
asked in his letter, "Will asbestos suppliers mark container
3
with crossbones indicating hazard item for OSHA?".
4
5
A.
6
Q.
Did you ever discuss that with Mr. Opila? Only as is detailed in that letter. And in reply to his question about crossbones, you
7
enclosed the copy which is the second page of this Exhibit
8
No. 10?
i
9
A.
I can only answer with respect that that is what
j
i
10
was documented.
!
11
Q.
Then you go on to detail a particular form of
:
12
warning label and indicate that, "Most Quebec asbestos
|
13
producers are putting label on all bags," and that, "The
j
14
above label is actuallyused by Flintkote." This label
j
15
was used by Flintkote at least as of the time of this
j II
16
writing in April of 1972 for raw asbestos coming out of
i
17
Flintkote mining operations?
j
18
A.
Yes, sir.
j
I
19
Q.
And then the last sentence reads, "I would suggest
j
20
that we limit any labeling of this type to what is
21
actually required by OSHA or other Government authorities."
22
What was your thinking behind that statement, if
23
you recall?
l
24
A.
Only that we were talking about raw asbestos fiber.
j
25
Q.
As distinguished from what, sir?
i
26
A.
Finished product.
i
i
27
Q.
Are we to understand that the emphasis in the label 'j
28
was to a danger concerning raw asbestos fiber?
>
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
J
C?LvDAH O6Q0!Qnv*'3o
185
1
Q.
And who is J. Szal, S-z-a-1?
2
A.
He was an assistant to the president of Flintkote.
I
3
Q.
What was his function? Do you recall?
4
A.
Administrative assistant, as assigned by the
j
5
president of the company. That's as far as I can go.
j
6
Q.
Next, let me show you what I've marked as Plaintiffs' | l
7
Exhibit 11, which is a Flintkote Company interoffice
!
8
correspondence to Mr. Poirier from Mr. Hooker, dated
9
November 6, 1969, and ask you to look at that.
10
(WHEREUPON, A PHOTOCOPY OF A
ONE-PAGE MEMORANDUM ON THE
11
LETTERHEAD OF THE FLINTKOTE
COMPANY, DATED NOVEMBER 6, 1969,
12
TO MR. D. POIRIER, FROM A. R.
HOOKER, JR., WAS MARKED AS
13
PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 11 FOR
IDENTIFICATION.)
14
!
15
MR. JEFFRIES:
What was the date?
16
MR. SILBERFELD:
November 6, 1969.
17
MR. JEFFRIES:
Who is it to?
18
MR. SILBERFELD:
Poirier, P-o-i-r-i-e-r.
19
THE WITNESS:
(Examining document.)
20
Yes, sir.
21
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. In substance, this memo
22
is a direction to the mine manager that a warning label
23
should be put on all bags of asbestos fiber leaving Flintkote
24
operations; is that true?
25
A.
Yes, sir.
26
Q.
Does this refresh your memory, sir, as to the date
27
on which that direction was given to the mine manager by
28
you?
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED Sh o r t h a n d REPORTERS
*ij 1 f 0000
<r-CM
186
1
A.
Not other than that date.
2
Q.
Do you know when it was, prior to November 6, 1969,
3
that development of a caution label began at Flintkote?
j
4
A.
I do not know.
j
i
5
Q.
Do you have any feeling or impression in your mind as
6
to how long it took to develop the language in thecaution
i
7
about the size, etcetera?
j
8
A.
A matter of weeks.
9
Q.
With regard to that last line of the memo, "There
i
10
will be no announcement of this action," what did you mean
11
by that?
j
l
12
A.
That the customer trade would not be advised that
j
13
we were going to put that on.
i
14
Q.
Was there a specific reason for that?
j
15
A.
Just so that he was aware if somebody called him
'
16
and says, "What does this mean?" that he would know that
j
i
17
we had not contacted our customers.
.
18
O.
Was there a specific reason not to contact customers j
19
and advise them of the fact that the warning label was
20
going to be put on?
21
A.
No, because other companies were already using it.
|
22
Or at least a similar label.
23
Q.
Was there a decision made within Flintkote, an
24
affirmative decision, not to contact customers about the
25
addition of the warning label?
26
A.
Only as expressed there. I was the sales manager
27
that made the statement.
28
O.
with regard to the persons who are copied with
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHANO r e p o r t e r s
r ' i * rv
r u '-
At >n S i*fu, fut U^L, *> ,
187
1
this memo, you have previously identified Mr. Moran,
2
Mr. Carpenter, Mr. Curry, Mr. Main. Who is H. E. Beard?
3
A.
He was the -- He was a manufacturing manager for
4
the Building Materials Division. And Mr. Poirier, for
5
.mining operations, reported to him, for mining operations.
j
6
O.
Where did Mr. Beard do his work?
!
II
7
A*
He was in New Jersev. *
j i
8
Q.
At the East Rutherford plant?
j
9
A.
Yes.
|
10
Q.
What specific product or products did he supervise
!
I
11
the manufacture of?
!
iI
12
A.
Gypsum, both at our mine in Newfoundland and at the j
13
gypsum plants in the United States.
j
14
Q.
As far as you know, did Mr. Beardwork with asbestos- j
15
containing materials?
16
A.
Asbestos-containing materials?
|
I
i
17
Q.
In the manufacturing process.
j
t
18
A.
No. Our gypsum plants did not use asbestos fiber.
j
19
0.
Do you have any hunches to why Mr. Beard would have
;
20
been coDied with thisinformation?
I
I
21
A.
Yes. Because Mr. Poirier, from an operating point
J
ii
22
of view, reported to Mr. Beard. Mr. Beard had a staff
j
23
of mining engineers, and the services of those people were j
j
24
used for our mining operation asa subsidiary in Canada.
i
i
25
Q.
And who was H. P. Heubner, H-e-u-b-n-e-r?
i
i
26
A.
He was a predecessor of Sy Weiss in safety.
27
0.
Do you know when?
* j
28
A.
I know that he was on -- he had that job at least in j
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
188
1
1962. i do not know when he relinquished it to Mr. Weiss.
2
Q.
Do you know where Mr. Heubner is at the present
l
j 3
time?
i
I
4
A.
I do not.
5
Q.
When did you last have any contact with him?
j
6
A.
No later than 19 -- It was either '67 or '69.
I
7
Q.
And where was he employed at that
time?
j
8
A.
Incorporate headquarters.
j
i
9 Q. New York City? i
10
A.
In '67, it was New York City. In '69, it was in
!
I
11
White Plains.
j
!
12
Q.
Thank
you.
I
13
Plaintiffs' 12 is a one-paae document which says i
14
at the top, "Page 1 of 2." But we don't have Page 2. This '
15
lists various cities and names below it, and that's the best |
16
way I can identify it.
j
17
(WHEREUPON, A PHOTOCOPY OF A
j
ONE-PAGE DOCUMENT UNTITLED WITH
|
18
"13AGE 1 OF 2" IN THE UPPER RIGHT-
j
HAND CORNER, WAS MARKED AS
'
19
PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT 12 FOR
i
IDENTIFICATION.)i
20
i
21
MR. SILBERFELD: Q. Let me show it to the witness
22
and ask you if you recognize it.
J
23
A.
A routing list.
j
i
24
Q . Can you explain that? What do you mean?
j
25
A.
In order that bulletins, general information letters
26
could be routed to people, and we would use something like
27
this as a routing list, and we would mark those people
28
with --
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
FLu
u >J'-'y
189
1
Q.
From the names at the various locations, can you
2
identify the vintage of this routing list? Is this the
3
150's , the 160's , the '70's?
4
A.
That one there pretty well identifies it (indicating) .
5
Sometime in the late '60's, early '70's.
6
Q.
With respect to Pioneer and Los Angeles, can you
7
give us the job capacities of the people listed there?
!
8
A.
Do you want me to name them?
9
Q.
Please. Just run down the list and give us their
10
job capacities.
11
A.
John O'Neill, he was manufacturing manager for the
12
floor plant. I do not know Mr. Berns. A. C. Costa, chief j
13
maintenance engineer. E. J. Fletcher, he and O'Neill were --
14
Fletcher was about ready to retire from the company, and
i
15
O'Neill took his place as manufacturing manager for the
j
I
16
floor tile plant. Wilson Harvey, the general manager of
J
17
the Pioneer Division. J. Holt, I did not know. R. G.
j
I
18
Huntington, director of personnel for the Pioneer Division. j
I
19
J. F. Kent, manager of the liquid products or industrial
j
20
products plant. R. C. Mansfield, I do not know. J. F.
j
21
Pung, a maintenance engineer. C. R. Rainey, a maintenance
22
engineer. J. A. Sweeney, head of the Tiletex plant
23
laboratory. John Weisheit, manager of the paper mill.
24
D. Wisdom, I do not know.
j
I
25
Q.
Thank you, sir.'
j
26
As Plaintiffs' 13, I have marked a two-page document !
i
27
which has at the top the words, "Instruction Sheet,
*j
28
Asbestos Handling Re-Instruction Sheet for Receiving
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHQRTHANO REPORTERS
r ., j M v '
r ul1
189
1
Q.
From the names at the various locations, can you
2
identify the vintage of this routing list? Is this the
3
150's , the '60's, the '70's?
4
A.
That one there pretty well identifies it (indicating).
5
Sometime in the late '60's, early '70's.
6
Q.
With respect to Pioneer and Los Angeles, can you
7
give us the job capacities of the people listed there?
8
A.
Do you want me to name them?
9
Q.
Please. Just run down the list and give us their
10
job capacities.
11
A.
John O'Neill, he was manufacturing manager for the
i
12
floor plant. I do not know Mr. Berns. A. C. Costa, chief j
13
maintenance engineer. E. J. Fletcher, he and O'Neill were --
14
Fletcher was about ready to retire from the company, and
1
15
O'Neill took his place as manufacturing manager for the
|
i
16
floor tile plant. Wilson Harvey, the general manager of
J
17
the Pioneer Division. J. Holt, I did not know. R. G.
j
I
18
Huntington, director of personnel for the Pioneer Division. j
I
19
J. F. Kent, manager of the liquid products or industrial
j
20
products plant. R. C. Mansfield, I do not know. J. F.
j
21
Pung, a maintenance engineer. C. R. Rainey, a maintenance J
i
22
engineer. J. A. Sweeney, head of the Tiletex plant
23
laboratory. John Weisheit, manager of the paper mill.
24
D. Wisdom, I do not know.
I
25
Q.
Thank you, sir."
j
26
As Plaintiffs' 13, I have marked a two-page document
i
27
which has at the top the words, "Instruction Sheet,
-|
28
Asbestos Handling Re-Instruction Sheet for Receiving
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHANO R P Q R Tfl$
rui*i
r u
.i " -*> . : V `
y
190
1
Personnel."
2
(WHEREUPON, A PHOTOCOPY OF A
TWO-PAGE DOCUMENT ENTITLED
3
"INSTRUCTION SHEET, ASBESTOS
HANDLING RE-INSTRUCTION SHEET
4
FOR RECEIVING PERSONNEL" WAS
MARKED AS PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT
5
NO. 13 FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
6
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. Let me show that to you,
7
sir.
8
A.
(Witness examining document.)
9
Yes, sir.
10
Q.
Have you seen that document before?
11
A.
No, sir.
12
Q.
Did you play any part in the development of the
13
information contained on here?
14
A.
Not knowingly.
15
Q.
From the text of the document, do you know what
16
department or person within Flintkote would have
17
prepared this document?
18
A.
The department would have been the personnel
19
department, plant personnel.
20
Q.
From the statements contained within Plaintiffs' 13,
21
are you able to give us the vintage of this document?
22
A.
Ask the questionagain.
23
Q.
From what's contained in here, the information, the
24
statements, can you tell us when this document would have
25
been promulgated, if at all?
26
A.
Let me see here. I don't know when it was
27
promulgated.
28
Q.
Plaintiffs' 14, a single sheet of paper entitled,
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHANO REPORTERS
. ___
FwftM fri_r> uOuOii^*
191
1
"Asbestos Hazard Instruction sheet For Employees."
2
(WHEREUPON, A PHOTOCOPY OF A
ONE-PAGE DOCUMENT ENTITLED
3
"ASBESTOS HAZARD INSTRUCTION
SHEET FOR EMPLOYEES" WAS MARKED
4
AS PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 14
FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
5
6
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. I'll show you that.
7
A.
(Witness examining document.)
8
Yes, sir.
9
Q.
Have youseen that before,sir?
10
A.
No, sir.
11
Q.
You can'tidentify it inany way?
12
A.
No, sir.
13
Q.
As Plaintiffs' 15, I'll mark another single page
14
entitlted, "Instruction Sheet, Asbestos Handling
15
Re-Instruction Sheet For Dry-Mix Room" -- and then whatever
16
was typed is crossed out, and the word "Employees" is
17
written in.
18
(WHEREUPON, A PHOTOCOPY OF A
ONE-PAGE DOCUMENT ENTITLED
19
"INSTRUCTION SHEET, ASBESTOS
HANDLING RE-INSTRUCTION SHEET
20
FOR DRY-MIX ROOM EMPLOYEES"
WAS MARKED AS PLAINTIFFS'
21
EXHIBIT NO. 15 FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
22
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. Let me ask you if you
23
recognize that.
24
A.
(Witness examining document.)
25
Yes, sir.
26
Q.
Do you recognize that document?
27
A.
No.
28
Q.
Do you know whether documents such as 13, 14 and
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
C E flT IF ieO SHORTHANO r e p o r t e r s
\Jj
192
1
15 have been disseminated to Flintkote employees at anytime?
2
A.
Not that I have any knowledge of.
3
Q.
I have the name of R. c . Berns, B-e-r-n-s, as being
4
the director of safety at some point in time. Do you
5
recall that, sir?
6
MR. SCHROETER:
He said he didn't know him.
7
THE WITNESS:
I don't recall knowing
8
Mr. Berns.
9
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. I may have missed that.
10
I 'm sorry.
11
Do you know, Mr. Hooker, whether there was ever
12
an investigation of the Tiletex plant at Chicago Heights
t
13
to determine the level of asbestos fibers in the air there?
14
A.
I am not aware of any environment EPA-type tests.
15
Q.
Are you aware of a study done by the American
16
Mutual Liability Insurance Company?
17
A.
No, sir.
I
18
Q.
Do you have an understanding of what threshold
j
19
limit values are?
|
1I
20
A.
Yes, sir.
21
Q.
Do you knowwhat thegovernmental standard for
22
threshold limit values was in the late '60's?
23
A.
As it relates to asbestos
fiber?
24
Q.
Yes, sir.
l
25
Q.
I don't think there were any.
j
26
Q.
Was there a recommended TLV at that time?
|
27
MR. SCHROETER:
Recommended by whom?
!
-i
28
MR. SILBERFELD:
Recommended by any association
i __________________________________________________ ___________ i
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED Sh o r t h a n d REPORTERS
pi n
i-D
Oi v
. 1 ' '- ' - ' - j
1*000322"'
193
1
or agency.
2
THE WITNESS:
Again, with regard specifically
3
to asbestos fiber?
4
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. Yes.
5
A.
Not to my knowledge.
6
Q.
Let me mark as next in order, as 16, "Report of
7
Investigation" of The Flintkote Company Tiletex plant,
8
Chicago Heights, Illinois, from the American Mutual
lI
9
Liability Insurance Company. It consists of five pages.
j
10
(WHEREUPON, A PHOTOCOPY OF A
;
FIVE-PAGE DOCUMENT ENTITLED
11
"REPORT OF INVESTIGATION,"
THE FLINTKOTE COMPANY -
12
TILETEX PLANT, BY LEON D.
\
HOROWITZ, CHIEF, INDUSTRIAL
i
13
HYGIENE SECTION, WAS MARKED AS
PLAINTIFFS* EXHIBIT NO. 16 FOR
j
14
IDENTIFICATION.)
j
i
15
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. Would you take a look at
1
j
16
that for a moment, sir?
i
17
A.
(Witness examining document.)
\
18
Yes, sir.
19
Q.
Having had a quickchance to look at Exhibit 16, do 1 I
20
you recognize it?
21
A.
No, I do not.
22
Q.
You've never seen it before?
23
A.
No, sir.
j
24
Q.
Do you know who within Flintkote in 1968 or 1969
25
would have been involved in the taking of air samples at
j
26
the Chicago Heights plant?
j
27
A.
Only by title.
-i
28
Q.
Who's that?
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTMANO REPORTERS
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194
1
A.
Our safety director and insurance director.
2
Q.
Do you know who the safety director was in the
3
late '60's? Did you identify that person?
4
A.
5
Q.
I'm not sure at what time who had the responsibility. i
I don't know that we established where Mr. Opila is i
6
now.
|
7
A.
He is not longer with The Flintkote Company.
i
8
Q.
Do you know where he resides?
1
9
A.
Best of my knowledge, he's still living in the
|
1
10
Chicago Heights area.
j
11
Q.
Is he working or retired? Do you know?
iI
12
A.
Retired, as far as I know.
i'
13
0.
Do you have his address?
14
A.
No.
i
15
Q.
It's not in your book?
1
16
A.
NO.
j
17
Q.
Do you recall that a Mr. Fred Swanson was the
ii
18
assistant plant manager in Chicago Heights in the late '60's?
Ii
19 A.
Fred Swanson.
i
20
Q.
Fred Swanson.
21
A.
I do not recall of ever knowing him.
;
i
22
Q.
Next is a four-page document, the firstof which is ,
i
23
a copy of -- looks like a piece of writing paper that has
|
24
handwriting on it and bears the numbers "N10-3B.06." It
j
I
25
says, "1980 safety tour."
i
26
(WHEREUPON, A PHOTOCOPY OF A
FOUR-PAGE DOCUMENT, THE FIRST
27
PAGE BEARING THE NUMBERS "N10-3B.06,"
:
WAS MARKED AS PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT
-j
28
NO. 17 FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
j
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
c e r t if ie d s h o r t h a n d r e p o r t e r s
195
1
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. What I'd like to do is
2
just show you this. There are some copies of photographs
3
behind it, Mr. Hooker. And as you're looking at it, the
4
question is: Do you recognize what facility that's about?
5
A.-
(Witness examining document.)
6
I cannot identify it specifically by the text. The
7
things in there are common to more than one plant.
i
8
Q.
From the photographs of the buildings or whatever
9
are depicted in the photographs, can you identify which
10
plant it is?
11
A.
That's what I am saying. These are common to more
12
than one plant.
13
Q.
Plaintiffs' 18 is an eight-page document, the cover
14
of which is entitled, "Asbestos, how to work with it and
15
protect your health."
16
Please take a look at that and tell me if you
17
recognize it.
18
(WHEREUPON, A PHOTOCOPY OF AN
EIGHT-PAGE DOCUMENT ENTITLED
19
"ASBESTOS, HOW TO WORK WITH IT
AND PROTECT YOUR HEALTH" WAS
20
MARKED AS PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT
NO. 18 FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
21
22
THE WITNESS:
(Examining document.)
23
Yes, sir.
24
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. Have you seen that copy
25
of brochure or pamphlet before?
26
A.
I do not recall seeing it before.
27
Q.
Do you know whether this document was ever provided
28
to any employees of Flintkote at anytime?
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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1
A.
I do not.
2
Q.
Do you know whether it was ever furnished by
3
Flintkote to any of its customers or purchasers of its
4
finished product?
5
A.
I do not.
6
MR. SCHROETER:
Did you say finished product?
7
MR. SILBERFELD:
Finished product.
8
THE WITNESS:
It's not applicable.
9
MR. SILBERFELD:
Off the record.
10
(Whereupon, there was a discussion off the record,
11
followed by a recess taken at 5:25 o'clock p.m., and the
12
deposition resumed at 5:45 o'clock p.m.)
13
14
FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR. GRELL
15
MR. GRELL:
Q. Mr. Hooker, earlier
I
16
Mr. Miller asked you some questions about your educational j
ji 17
background. I'd just like to follow up a little bit on
18
that.
!
19
A.
20
Q.
Yes, sir. Did you graduate from college?
21
A.
University of Southern California.
j 22
Q.
What was your degree in?
!
I
I
23
A.
In business administration, industrial engineering.
24
Bachelor of science in business administration, industrial
25
engineering.
26
Q.
You also said earlier that you didn't take courses
27
that would qualify you in any areas of industrial hygiene;
28
is that true?
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED Sh ORTHANO r e p o r t e r s
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197
1
A.
I did not take any courses in industrial hygiene.
2
Q.
In the forty or so years that you've worked with
3
Flintkote, have you attended any seminars that would have
4
given you in-house training in that area?
5
A.
No, sir.
6
Q.
Have you attended any other courses where you would
7
have obtained training, conducted studies, that kind of
j
8
thing?
I
9
A.
No, sir.
I
l
i 10
Q.
Earlier you also said that if the asbestos tile
;
11
manufactured and sold by Flintkote was cut, scraped, chipped, :
!
12
that it would not release any fibers.
j
i
13
A.
Best of my knowledge, it will not.
j
14
Q.
What is the basis of that knowledge, sir?
j
15
A.
From using the tile primarily myself.
j
16
Q.
How oftendid you use the tile?
17
A.
About -- I used it myself in three different
j
18
installations.
j
I
19
Q.
Did you ever have to rip it out?
;
20
A.
Yes, in some instances.
j
21
Q.
What methods did you use to rip it out?
22
A.
Sputtered it off the floor.
23
Q.
How did you sputter it?
|
I
24
A. . Used a flat blade and got underneath the tilelike
.
25
a spatula and removed the tile from the floor.
I
26
Q.
When you say that there was no fibers released,
27
that means that there was noobservable fibers?
;
i
28
A.
None that I could observe.
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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1
Q.
But you don't know if any fibers were, in fact,
2
released?
3
A.
No tests were made.
4
Q.
You also talked earlier about a routing system where
5
information was passed on. For example, if you went to
6
an A1A meeting, you would pass that information along to
7
other people in the chain of corporate structure.
8
A.
Right.
9
Q.
Likewise, if somebody else went to an AIA meeting
10
or QAMA meeting, were you included in the chain of informa
11
tion being passed along?
12
A.
Yes, if we had --
13
You used a term, something besides AIA in that one.
14
Q.
The Asbestos Information Association is what I
15
referred to.
16
A.
Yes. If other people attended a meeting and they
17
were in segments of the meeting I was not in, I would have
18
received information that they picked up.
19
Q.
Do you know who Mr. Heubner is?
20
A.
Heubner.
21
Q.
Heubner, excuse me.
22
A.
Harry Heubner was an employee of The Flintkote
23
Company.
24
Q.
Do you know what his position was?
25
A.
Harry preceded Sy Weiss, I believe, inconnection
26
with insurance. Whether he had safety under him, I don't
27
know. Seems to me -- I'm not positive of this, but Harry
28
H eu b n er w as an e m p lo y e e o The Flintkote Company at the
PATRICIA CALLAHAN 4ASSOCIATES
C EBTIFieO 'SHOBTHANO REPORTERS
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00003249
199
1
corporate level. I'm not certain of what his title was.
2
Q.
Did you ever have an occasion to talk with Mr. Heubner?
3
A.
I knew him. And as a result, we were in the same
4
building at one time.
5
Q.
If you went to an AIA meeting, would you include
6
him on the list of people to receive information?
7
A.
I believe I did.
iI
f
8
Q.
And likewise, do you know that if he received
j
j
9
things of information from other sources, that he would
j
10
copy you with that?
11
A.
Not necessarily.
i
12
Q.
Have you ever received articles from Mr. Heubner
|
13
concerning asbestos-related problems?
j
14
A.
I don't recall.
j
15
Q.
In your opinion, Mr. Hooker, if someone was cutting j
16
or scraping or chipping or breaking asbestos tile and
j
i
17
they didn't wear a respirator, in your opinion, would that
18
be considered to be unreasonable conduct on the part of
19
the user of the product?
20
MR. SCHROETER:
Don't answer that. He's not
21
going to be called upon to give opinions at trial on that. I
22
Therefore, I'm objecting to opinion questions like this on
23
the basis of the relevance.
24
MR. GRELL:
He's already testified that
j
25 he's used the product and he didn't see any fibers, so I j I
26
feel that it's a common enough area that his opinion would
27
be valid in this particular instance.
26
MR. SCHROETER:
Well, that's a matter of
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIElEO SHORTMANO REPORTERS
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200
1
argument, Counsel. But I'm instruct him not to answer the
2
question.
3
MR. GRELL:
Q. Are you refusing to answer
4
the question, Mr. Hooker?
I
!
5
MR. SCHROETER:
He is following my instruction j
i
6
and doesn't have to
!
7
THE WITNESS:
I follow my counsel's
|
j
8
instruction.
!
9
MR. SCHROETER:
He has no choice.
10
MR. GRELL:
Q. Are you familiar with
11
the Pioneer Flintkote office located at 141 Battery Street
12
in San Francisco?
13
A.
That office existed at one time. I don't think it
14
exists today.
15
Q.
Do you know when that office first came into
16
existence?
17
A.
No, I do not.
18
Q.
Do you have a rough approximation as to the decade?
19
A.
I believe that it was in existence in 1946 when I
20
came to work for The Flintkote Company.
21
Q.
Do you know when it went out of --
22
A.
I do not.
23
Q.
The general decade?
24
A.
I just don't know when it was closed.
25
Q.
Have you ever been to that office?
26
A.
Yes.
27
Q.
Do you know who was in charge of that office?
28
A.
Whoever the sales manager was at the time. And I
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHANO REPORTERS
FvM
201
1
forget their names. It was a sales office.
2
Q.
Would you have any --
3
A. A district sales office.
4
Q.
Would you have any records that were returned to
5
The Flintkote Company concerning that particular Pioneer
6
Flintkote distributor outlet?
7
A.
That? That was a sales office. It was not a
8
distributor.
9
Q.
Could you define what a sales office would do?
10
A.
District sales manager and the local sales persons
11
calling on the trade selling our products here in the Bay
12
Area used that office for their headquarters. There were
13
no products stored in that office.
14
Q.
So if someone got an order for the purchase, they
15
would process it through that office. And then where
16
would that order go to?
17
A.
I don't know specifically. It would have ultimately
18
wound up at the plant producing the product that they took
19
the order for.
20
Q.
Let's assume it was floor tile.
21
A.
It would have gone to Los Angeles. The order would
22
have gone to Los Angeles for shipment from the Los Angeles
23
plant.
24
Q.
How would it have been shipped from Los Angeles
23
to the Bay Area?
26
A.
As a general rule, by truck.
27
Q.
Did you have any particular trucking outfits that
28
were used by Flintkote?
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
C E B T i e i EO s h o h t h a n o a e p o t e s
F v AM FLD
60 i 93335 C 0003232
202
1
A.
The only one 1 can remember, Lujak.
2
Q*
Lujak?
3
A.
L-u-j-a-k, I think is the spelling, or j-a-c. One
j
4
or the other.
j
5
Q.
Do you know if there's any records at Flintkote's
6
main office that would contain information concerning the
7
sales people that worked out of that office on Battery Street j
8
in San Francisco?
Ii
9
A.
I know of no -- I can't answer that. I don't know
ji
j 10
what records, personnel records exist*
!
ii
11
Q.
Again, would the information be contained in the
i
12
personnel department or in some other department, if
i
13
one was to try to look for it?
j
14
A.
If I was looking for it, I'd look for it in the
j
l
15
personnel department.
|
16
Q.
If I asked you this question earlier, I don't
Ij
17
remember it. But who is in charge of the personnel office
18
at Flintkote?
19
A.
At the present time, the head of personnel is
20
Mr. Clifford Carr.
;
21
Q.
Where does Mr. Carr live?
j
22
A.
Well, Irving -- He works in Irving, Texas. I don't I
j 23
know where he lives. Someplace in the Dallas area.
I
j 24
Q.
In the beginning of the deposition, you said that
i 25
you are presently employed byGenstar, correct?
I
26
A.
I am employed by The Flintkote Company, a wholly
i
27
owned subsidiary of Genstar, and I work for the Genstar
i
i
28
B u i l d i n g M a t e r i a l s Divison.
1
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED Sh ORTHANO r e p o r t e r s
203
1
Q.
So you still consider yourself an employee of
2
Flintkote?
3
A.
Flintkote is an entity wholly owned by Genstar.
4
Q.
Did you ever read or have occasion to read "Asbestos
5
Magazine"?
6
A-
Yes.
i
i
7
Q.
When did you first start reading that publication?
j
i
8
A.
At least by 1969. No later than 1969.
i
9
Q.
Did you find that the information in that, that
j
i
10
was published in "Asbestos Magazine," that pertained to,
;
11
say, Flintkote was generally accurate?
12
A.
Yes.
|
i
13
Q.
If the information wasn't accurate, would you take
i
i
14
it upon yourself to contact the people at "Asbestos
;
I
15
Magazine" to ask for a clarification of anything that had
)
16
been published in it?
j
17
A.
If I found there were inaccuracies, I would have
j
I
18
gone through our advertising department and asked them to
i
19
see that it was corrected.
;
I
20
Q.
Referring to Plaintiffs' No. 11, the last sentence
21
of that document says, "There will be no announcement of
22
this action," of the warnings that were going to be placed
23
on the bags of asbestos sold by Flintkote. What was the
24
purpose of putting a warning on the bag?
25
A.
To warn the user of the material, that there was a
j
26
potential hazard that he should protect himself a g a i n s t .
27
Q.
In your opinion, would an announcement of that fact, .
28
along with the placing of the warnings on the bags of
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHANO REPORTERS
"AM F L d"
60 19 3 3 3 5 0000323^
204
1
asbestos, be more effective in communicating that information
2
to the customer?
3
A.
No.
4
Q.
And why is that?
jI
5
A.
Because the people I was dealing with were not
6
plant workers.
|
7
Q.
Who were the people that you were dealing with?
|
i
8
A.
The purchasing agents for the various companies I
f
9
was selling to.
j
j 10
Q.
And why wouldn't that announcement have been helpful
j
11
to them to realize potential hazards involved in handling
12
the sale of asbestos fiber?
j
13
A.
As I said, the product was going to plant workers,
14
not to them. The industry was already starting to label
15
bags. I just didn't feel that there was any need to make !
iI
j 16
an announcement.
17
Q.
So you're saying that the people that you were
j
18
selling the asbestos fibers to already knew about the
j
19
hazards associatedwith theasbestosand that there was
1
20
no need to bring it to their attention by making an
21
announcement?
22
MR. TRAPANI:
I'm going to object to that
23
as, for one thing, it's leading. Second, it calls for
24
speculation. It'svague and ambiguous.
j
25
MR. GRELL:
Q. You can still answer the
26
question.
i
27
A.
Repeat the question.
. j
28
MR. GRELL:
Could you read the question
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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rr uitr*.
A Q; 3 2 3 5
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205
1
back?
2
(Whereupon, the record was read by the reporter.)
3
MR. SCHROETER:
He just wants to know whether
4
that's what you were selling.
5
THE WITNESS:
First of all, I don't know
6
whether the people I was selling asbestos fiber to at
7
this time knew or didn't know about asbestos hazards.
8
The other point I'm bringing up is that what I'm
9
saying here is that I'm advising our mine manager who is
10
doing the shipping that I was not going to tell -- go out
11
and broadcast to my customers that we were going to start
12
labeling our bags. We were just going to put the label on
13
the bag. There was no consideration given as to whether
14
it would have been helpful or not helpful or whether they
15
knew or didn't know.
16
MR. GRELL:
Q. And it goes back to my
17
earlier question. In your opinion, would you think that
18
an announcement would have been more effective in
19
communicating the warnings to the people buying your
20
asbestos fiber?
21
A.
It may have been, yes.
22
Q.
During today's deposition, we've also referred to
23
the exhibits that were attached to interrogatories in the
24
St. Jacque case. And I'd just like to ask you -- it's
25
Plaintiffs' Exhibit 2 --
26
MR. ROSEN:
For the record, this is
27
also Exhibit B -- excuse me, Exhibit A to the Flintkote
28
answers to interrogatories in the St. Jacque matter.
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHANO REPORTERS
.
r.f im
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FLD
0 0 0 0 32 36
206
1
MR. GRELL:
Q. I'd like you to take a
2
moment and just look through that.
|
!
3
A.
I am very familiar with it.
j
4
Q.
Do you know who prepared this document or these
5
pages of documents?
j
6
A.
The initial work on the document was done in The
;
7
Flintkote Company East Rutherfordplant. Thefinalization
;
8
of it, as far as I know, was done by Thompson, Hine and
j
9
Flory.
|
10
Q.
Who?
|
11
A.
Thompson, Hine and Flory, our legal counsel in
j !
12
Cleveland.
j
j 13
Q.
Did you have an involvement in inputting this
1
j 14
information into this?
15
A.
Yes, sir.
i
i
16
Q.
In your opinion, is the information contained in
j
I
17
this document accurate?
|
18
A.
Every effort has been made to make it accurate.
j
19
Q.
So going down the column, "Product Name," in the
I
20
first column of Exhibit 2, those arean accurate listing
j
21
of the various asbestos industrial products manufactured
22
by Flintkote?
23
A.
As accurate as our records reflect.
24
Q.
Same thing with the second column, "Synonymous
:
25
Name"?
I
26
A.
Yes, sir.
i
27
Q.
That's accurate, as well?
j
28
A.
The total document is as accurate as our records
j
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTMANO REPORTERS
401 ct_D ft0.00wL
-...i CM
207
1
indicate.
2
Q.
And the same would hold true for the next column,
3
"Period of Manufacture"?
4
A.
Every column of the sheet.
5
Q.
"Percentage of Asbestos"?
6
A.
Yes.
7
Q.
And the description of the product?
8
A.
Yes, sir.
j
i
9
Q.
Is the description of the product just a summary,
10
or are there other uses where there's a use of the product
11
that may be omitted from that column?
12
A.
Would you be specificabout theproduct, and I'll
j
13
try to answer your question.
}
I
14
Q.
The one I was thinking ofwas the tennis court, and
I
(
15
I can't seem to find it.
16
MR. JUDY:
Tennis court and resurfacing;
I
17
is that what you're looking for?
18
MR. GRELL:
Yes.
j
19
MR. SCHROETER:
The last sheet.
20
THE WITNESS:
I think it's called Treadkote.
21
MR. GRELL:
Q. Treadkote?
22
MR. ROSEN:
There it is (indicating), on
23
the next to the last page.
24
THE WITNESS:
25
horizontal documents.
Next to the last page of the I
26
MR. GRELL:
Q. That product, "Tennis
27
Court Resurfacer," would that just be used for tennis courts
28
for example, or would there be other uses for the product?
ro co
PATRICIA CALLAHAN i ASSOCIATES
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208
1
A.
It was specifically designed for tennis courts.'
2
Q.
On the last page of Exhibit 2, dropping down to
3
the middle, it says, "Products Manufactured By Others But
4
Sold By Flintkote."
5
A.
Yes,, sir.
6
Q.
Which companies manufactured "Joint Treatment
7
Compound" that was sold by Flintkote, to your knowledge?
8
A.
I can name at least three or four.
9
Q.
Could you name them?
10
A.
National Gypsum, Ruco, Texas Textured Paint Com pany,
11
I believe U.S. Gypsum Company. Those are the ones I
12
remember.
13
Q.
What about for the "Spray Texture Paint"?
14
A.
The only one I know for sure is Texas Textured
15
Paint Company.
16
Q.
Same for "Ceiling Tile." Who manufactured the
17
"Ceiling Tile" that you sold?
18
A.
They're in Wisconsin. Conwed, C-o-n-w-e-d.
19
Q.
And what about the "Asbestos Cement Shingles"?
20
A.
I don't remember what companies produced them for us.
21
Q.
Are you aware of any records that would show --
22
A.
I don't know whether records would exist.
23
Q.
Have you ever seen the records, any records that
24
would indicate who was the manufacturer of the asbestos
25
shingles?
26
A.
If I did, I don't recall them.
27
Q.
28
A.
What about with the "Super Stakool White"? I h a v e f o r g o t t e n t h e name o f t h e c o m p a n y . It's a
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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2
California company. I do not remember their name.
2
Q.
What kind of product is that?
3
A.
It's a cement-type dry mix roof coating.
4
Q.
Is there any reason why it was just sold on the
5
West Coast only, as indicated on the exhibit?
i
6
A.
I can't answer why it wasn't sold in other locations, j
f
7
Q.
I asked you earlier about your knowledge of sales
;
8
to the United States Government, and you said that you had
9
some knowledge of sales to Air Force bases. And you said
J
i
10
that you didn't recall any sales to shipyards.
11
Now I'm trying to find out, do you have any
12
recollection as you sit here today about specific sales
j
i
13
to shipyards on the West Coast?
j
ij 14
A.
Not specifically.
15
Q.
Do you have any recollection at all?
j
16
A.
I know we bid on -- As assistant manager for the
17
department in the late '40's, we bid on jobs. I do not
j
18
specifically remember of having our products -- asbestos
j!
19
products delivered to them.
|
I
20
Q.
Do you have any recollection of Flintkote floor
21
tile being delivered to any shipyards on the West Coast?
22
A.
Only in reference to responses to interrogatories,
23
and I can't -- I can just recall that there were some
24
responses that indicated we did.
j
j 25
Q.
Do you have any recollection as to what shipyards
I
26
you recall selling your asbestos floor tile to?
!
jI
27
A.
I did not sell floor tile.
I
28
Q.
I 'm talking now about Flintkote, no you personally.
PATRICIA CALLAHAN 4 ASSOCIATES
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1
Q.
Do you know of anybody who would have knowledge
2
regarding sales to shipyards?
3
A.
Of floor tile?
4
Q.
Yas.
|
5
A.
Walter Glovack.
j
6
Q.
Is Mr. Glovack still with Flintkote?
I
7
A.
He's on sick leave in the Los Angeles area.
j
8
Q.
Are you aware of any sales of Flintkote asbestos
j
9
floor tile to shipyards on the East Coast?
|
10
A.
Not specifically.
I
11
Q.
Do you have any recollection at all?
j
12
A.
All I can"say is I know we have shipyard cases.
j
i
13
But I don't know what -- I can't remember what the products j
14 were.
j
15
Q.
Are you aware of any documents that might help
j
!
16
refresh your recollection about whether or not there were
! i
I
17
these sales to the East Coast shipyards?
j
i
18
A.
No. They may exist. I don't know.
j
19
Q.
If Flintkote sold, for example, asbestos floor tile iI
20
to the government, would they bid on a large scale? Would j
l
21
they sell through the various distributors across the
I
22
country? What was the general procedure when there were
j
23
sales to the government?
j
24
MR. SCHROETER:
That's a compound question.
;
25
Objected to on that ground. Are you asking him now about
26
bidding, or are you asking him about selling? And those
27
are two different things. A businessman would tell you
:
28
that.
j
____________________________________________________:__________ ! PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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1
MR. GRELL:
Q. If and when Flintkote
2
had sales to the United States Government, would the sales
3
usually be the result of a bidding process where the
4
government sent out a bid and you made an offer, the offer
5
was either accepted or rejected, but if it was accepted,
6
you would then sell the products?
7
A.
As a general rule, yes.
8
Q.
Are you aware of sales of, again, for example,
9
asbestos floor tile, that were made to the government that
10
didn't necessarily involve the biddingprocess?
11
A.
No.
12
Q.
Are you familiar with the operations of the
i
13
distributors that sold Flintkote products?
I
14
A.
Not specifically. It was not in my -- not part of
15
my sales responsibility.
t
16
Q.
So would it be a fair statement to say that you do
| I
i
17
not know one way or the other whether or not the distributor j
18
would sell to the government shipyards?
j
19 A.
I do not know whether the distributor sold to the
j
20
government shipyards.
, !
21
Q.
Since the preparation of Plaintiffs' Exhibit 2,
22
which is dated 7/27/83, or at least the first seven pages,
23
and then there's the one page where it's dated 8/3/83,
24
has there been any change in the products that you found
*
1
25
that Flintkote manufactured or sold?
26
A.
Any --
27
Q.
Have there been any additional products that you
28
have uncovered that were not included on these exhibits?60
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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1
A.
To the best of my knowledge and our knowledge, all
2
asbestos products are listed here.
3
Q.
You also said earlier that you purchased asbestos
4
from Atlas Asbestos in Calaveras County.
5
A.
Coalinga.
6
Q.
Coalinga. Excuse me.
i
7
Do you recall approximately what years that you
j
8
purchased asbestos from Atlas?
i 9
A.
1960's.
10
Q.
Do you have any idea as to the amount of asbestos
;
i
|
11
fiber that you had purchased from that business?
j
{
12
A.
It would be strictly speculation. I do not remember j
13
the quantity.
!
|
14
Q.
Do you know who owned Atlas Asbestos Company?
j
15
A.
Partly owned by Huxley Development company.
I
jj
16
Q.
Do you know who else partly owned it?
17
A.
I do not remember.
i
18 Q. Would the asbestos fiber that you purchased from I 1
19
the Atlas mine be used in the Vernon plant in Southern
20
California?
Ij
21
A.
Yes, sir.
j
22
Q.
Are you aware of any of that asbestos being
j
23
transported to the other Fibreboard plants where asbestos
j
24
was being used?
|
25
MR. SCHROETER:
Don't say "Fibreboard."
j
i
26
MR. GRELL:
Q. Excuse me. Flintkote.
27
A.
No.
28
Q.
I t ' s g e ttin g la te .
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
213
1
So all the asbestos that was sold to Flintkote from
2
the Atlas Asbestos Company was used in the Vernon,
3
California plant?
4
A.
To the best of my knowledge.
5
Q.
Do you know who would ship the asbestos from Atlas
6
down to Southern California?
i
7
A.
The trucking company?
8
Q.
Yes.
9
A.
No, I do not remember.
j
|
10
Q.
Do you know if the asbestos taken from Atlas was
11
transported in any other way other than by truck?
i
(
12
A.
Best of my knowledge, it was all trucked.
j
i
13
Q.
When you were working as a sales manager for
14
Flintkote Mines and as account manager for Flintkote,
15
when you'd get paid, was it one check or --
16
A.
Yes, sir.
17
Q.
-- or was it twochecks?
18
A.
One check.
19
Q.
And that was from Flintkote?
20
A.
Yes, sir.
21
Q.
In addition to the "Asbestos Magazine," were there
22
any other industry publications that you would read on a
23
regular basis?
24
A.
No, sir.
25
Q.
I understand that you're planning on retiring soon,
26
Mr. Hooker; is that true?
27
A.
Yes, sir.
28
Q.
Do y o u know who y o u r p r e d e c e s s o r i s g o i n g to be?
i
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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1
MR. JUDY:
Successor.
2
I'm sorry, I threw you off.
3
MR. GRELL:
Q. Do you know who your
j
4
successor is going to be?
I
i
5
A.
Yes, sir.
6
Q.
Who is that?
j
7
A.
Mr. Charles Caterino. I am speaking of mysuccessor ;
8
for the purchasing responsibilities that I now have.
j
!
i
9
Q.
Do you know who isgoing to be yoursuccessor for
j
10
the interrogatory answering and requests for admissions?
11
A.
No, sir.
12
MR. SCHROETER:
j 1
We may decide not to ever
13
answer any more.
j
14
THE WITNESS:
No, sir.
|
I
15
MR. ROSEN:
Poor fellow hasn't been
i
16
fingered yet.
17
MR. GRELL:
Q. Has Flintkote asked you
18
to stay on to do any consulting work on behalf of them
19
in relationship to the asbestos litigation that is pending?
20
A.
No arrangements have been made.
21
Q.
We presently have scheduled a number of cases set
22
to go to trial on April 30th, Mr. Hooker, and you've been
23
asked to appear as a witness at those trials. Are you
24
going to be retiring priorto that time, April 30th?
25
A.
26
Q.
No. Have you been asked about appearing at these trials?
27
A.
I am not available on April 30.
28
Q.
What a b o u t May 5 th ?
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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1
A.
I could be available. I am moving my household
2
goods starting on the 27th of April to South Carolina,
3
and I will not be back in my office in Dallas until about
4
the 5th -- 4th or 5th of May.
!
5
Q.
So you are going to be moving from your present
j
6
home to South Carolina?
!
7
A.
Right.
|
I
8
Q.
Where in South Carolina are you going to be moving
|
I
9
to, Mr. Hooker?
10
A.
Hilton Head, South Carolina.
11
Q.
12
A.
Do you have a specific address in Hilton Head? Are you asking for my residence now or where I am
13
going to be?
I
14
Q.
I want to know where you are going to be.
15
A.
I am going to be in the company apartment when I
16
return in May and be there until I retire, in Irving,
17
Texas. So my address and phone number will be 580 Decker
j
18
Drive in Irving, which is my office address.
19
MR. SCHROETER:
In short, he can be reached
20
through his counsel, through his company's counsel.
21
MR. GRELL:
Q. So you're going to be
22
in Hilton Head, and then --
23
A.
My wife and my possessions will be in South
24
Carolina, and I will be in -- still working for Flintkote
j
25
Company for several months after I move, after I make this j
26
move.
!
I!
27
Q.
i'm trying to find out where you're planning to
i
28
permanently reside.
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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216
1
A-
After I retire?
2
Q.
After you retire.
3
A.
In Hilton Head, South Carolina.
4
Q.
And that's at 580 --
5
A.
No. 580 Decker Drive is where I will be until I
6
retire.
7
Q.
Again, it's getting late.
j
8
Where in Hilton Head? I want to know your
j
i
9
permanent future residence.
!
i
10
A.
Will be, until my home that I am building is
11
completed -- and I don't know when it will be completed --
i
!
12
in the interim time, it will be 271 Stoney Creek, Sea P i n e s j
j
13
Plantation, Hilton Head Island, South Carolina.
|
14
MR. ROSEN:
Hope you play golf.
j
15
THE WITNESS:
Let's go.
16
MR. GRELL:
Q. Take me with you,please. !
17
That kind of takes care of the few follow-up
\
i
18
questions that I have.
:
19
MR. SCHROETER:
So see you all tomorrow
20
morning.
;
21
MR. ROSEN:
Can I ask twoquestions?
;
22
Honest.
|
j 23
MR. SCHROETER:
Literally?
i
24
David wants to ask two questions.
;
25
26
FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR. ROSEN
27
MR. ROSEN:
Q. Question number one, w e 've ,
I
28
been referring to the interrogatory answers that The
j
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
217
1
Flintkote Company gave to questions which my office
2
propounded in St. Jacque and Beauregard, and on several
3
occasions during the deposition today, the answers have
4
been referred to as unverified.
5
Let me just show the witness the answers to which
6
I am referring, and then I will also show the witness and
7
his counsel a letter dated September 21, 1983, on the
8
stationery of the La Follette, Johnson, Schroeter & De Haas
9
office, signed by Christopher Cannon of that office, and
10
then the enclosure to that letter, which is a verification
11
form from the State of Texas, County of Dallas.
12
Sir, do you recognize the signature on the verifica
13
tion form?
14
A.
That is my signature.
15
Q.
Can you state, as purported in the September 21
16
letter of Mr. Cannon, that this verification is with
17
reference to the St. Jacque interrogatories that you see
18
before you?
19
A.
Specifically, I cannot.
20
MR. PRICE:
That's number two.
21
MR. ROSEN:
I'm only on part "C."
22
MR. SCHROETER:
He didn't mean two questions.
23
He meant two parts.
24
MR. ROSEN:
Let me ask counsel if counsel
25
will stipulate to that fact.
26
MR. SCHROETER:
Not at this late hour. I
27
will look at it. Circumstantially, there's some persuasive
28
evidence that they belong together. The witness can confirm
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED Sh ORTHANO REPORTERS
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218
1
it.
2
THE WITNESS:
When I get back to my office,
3
I can confirm it.
4
MR. SCHROETER:
In fact, he'll confirm it
5
with the office, and w e 'll settle it outside of the
6
courtroom.
7
8
Q.
MR. ROSEN:
Great.
Interrogatory No. 17 in this set reads as follows:
9
"Have you" -- and you, meaning Flintkote -- "received
10
notice that any other person was claiming injury as a result
11
of using asbestos products manufactured and/or sold by your
12
company (both prior to and subsequent to the filing of
13
this action)."
14
Answer No. 17 is yes.
15
"If so, please state" -- and then it breaks down
16
into seven subparts asking specific facts about those
17
claims, which I won't read into the record now.
18
The answer to No. 18, which asks for specific
19
information about other claims, is an objection, that
20
to provide an answer to this particular interrogatory
21
would be unduly burdensome.
22
My question now, sir, is how you were able to
23
answer No. 17 affirmatively. In other words, how did you
24
know that there were, in fact, other claims against
25
Flintkote of any type relating to injury as a result of
26
using asbestos products for which your company is responsi
27
ble?
28
A.
My counsel advised me that that, in fact, existed.
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
219
1
Q.
Other than your counsel advising you that that fact
2
was true, did you check any files of your own or of
3
Flintkote's to answer that question?
4
A.
I checked no files of my own.
5
Q.
Do any such files exist which could help you answer
6
that question?
7
MR. JUDY:
Which question?
8
MR. ROSEN:
As to whether there are other
9
claims.
10
Q.
Do any files exist on the premises of The Flintkote
11
Company?
12
A.
I have copies -- I can only answer that in that I
13
have copies of every interrogatory I signed.
14
Q.
I think you misunderstood my question.
15
I want to know if, as you sit here today, you are
16
aware of any files which exist in The Flintkote Company
17
which would provide a basis for answering the question
18
of whether there are other claims pending against The
19
Flintkote Company for injuries claimed as a result of
20
exposure to Flintkote's asbestos-containing products.
21
MR. SCHROETER:
Mr. Hooker, he represents --
22
Just a moment, please.
23
Mr. Rosen represents a bunch of plaintiffs in the
24
Los Angeles area, and he is asking this question in this
25
interrogatory, "Are there other people suing Flintkote
26
other than my clients?".
27
MR. ROSEN:
Not just suing. Filing any
28
kind of claims.
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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1
MR. SCHROETER:
Filing any claims whatever.
2
Suing is included. So your answer is yes.
3
MR. ROSEN:
Q. And you've told me that
4
the basis for your affirmative answer was your legal
5
counsel telling you that.
6
A.
That is correct.
7
Q.
I have now asked if there are any files in The
8
Flintkote Company which would also provide an affirmative
9
basis for the answer to that question.
10
MR. SCHROETER:
In other words, he wants to
11
know if The Flintkote Company has files concerning the
12
filing of these claims.
j
13
THE WITNESS:
I have some files in my office !
14
concerning interrogatories and requests for admissions
15
that I have been responsible for signing and certifying.
16
MR. ROSEN:
Q. Any files other than
17
these files relating to discovery?
j
18
A.
I am unaware of where those files are, if I
19
understand the question correctly. I don't understand
20
what you're driving at. That's my problem.
21
Q.
The question is whether there are files in The
22
Flintkote Company, not limited just to your office, which
23
would give you information to conclude that there were
24
claims filed against The Flintkote Company for injury
j
25
resulting from exposure to Flintkote's asbestos products.
j
26
A.
I know of no specific files.
!
27
MR. ROSEN:
Thank you.
28
MR. TRAPANI:
I just have one very quick*
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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1
question, if I might, sir.
2
What kind of asbestos fiber was The Flintkote
3
Company selling to Raybestos-Manhattan after 1969?
4
THE WITNESS:
Chrysotile.
5
MR. TRAPANI:
Thank you.
6
MR. JUDY:
It's my understanding that
7
we worked late this evening and that we will reconvene
8
tomorrow morning at 8:30 and that we will finish by 11:30.
9
Is that correct?
10
MR. JEFFRIES:
I think it's a function, in
11
part, if we have anything, on how long Roman takes with
12
the documents. I don't know if I have anything now. But
13
who knows.
14
MR. SCHROETER:
Unilaterally, TheFlintkote
15
Company, on behalf of Mr. Hooker, and as a party in response
16
to everything that's been said here this late afternoon and
17
evening, is concluding that there has been a representation
18
made by all of the parties that at 11:30 Mr. Hooker can go,
19
because he has to catch a plane, and that everybody will do
20 everything possible to finish. In fact, some people have
21 spoken of the fact that there is a guarantee that everyone
22 will be finished.
23
And with that in mind, you all go home now and
24
think about it and come back at 8:30.
25
26
(Whereupon, the deposition was adjourned on Thursday,
27 April 12, 1984, at 6:30 o'clock p.m.)
28 / / / / / / / / /
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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1
(Whereupon, the deposition resumed on Friday,
2
April 13, 1984, at 8:50 o'clock a.m. The following
3
attorneys were present:
4
CHRISTOPHER E. GRELL, ESQ.
|
5
ROMAN M. SILBERFELD, ESQ.
1
6
RUDOLF H. SCHROETER, ESQ.
j
7
THEODORE A. CHUN, ESQ.
j
8
DESTIE OVERPECK, ESQ.
I
i
9
THOMAS R. PORT, ESQ.
!
10
BARBARA J. ARISON, ESQ.
j
11
J. LAWRENCE JUDY, ESQ.
\
12
EDWARD M. PRICE, ESQ.
13
D. WAYNE JEFFRIES, ESQ.
14
THOMAS JANISCH, ESQ.
j
15
J. BRADLEY O 'CONNELL, ESQ.
!
16
RONALD MILLER, ESQ.
j
17
DANIEL K. OHL, ESQ.
I
18
JOHN J. MURRAY, ESQ.
|
19
RAOUL A. RENAUD, ESQ.
[
i
20
RICHARD B. HECHLER, ESQ.)
|
I 21
t
i
22
MR. SCHROETER:
It is now 8:50 a.m. We are
j
23
starting the continuation of Mr. Hooker's deposition, which | t
24
had been agreed upon to start at 8:30. For some reason,
j
25
one of plaintiffs' counsel -- in fact, two of plaintiffs'
;
26
counsel are --
27
MR. GRELL:
Just one.
l
28
MR. SCHROETER:
-- are not here
toCO
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHAND r e p o r t e r s
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223
1
One plaintiffs' counsel, mainly, Mr. Grell, is
2
here, and with his concurrence and on our own will to do so,
3
we will start the proceeding right now, pending the arrival
4
of other counsel, because we have a time problem, as we all
5
remember from discussion yesterday.
j
I
6
So I invite codefense counsel to take their orderly
|
7
turns in questioning Mr. Hooker.
I
i
8
9
EXAMINATION BY MR. JEFFRIES
10
MR. JEFFRIES:
Q. Mr. Hooker, my name is
I
11
Wayne Jeffries, and I wanted to ask you a few questions
12
about the purchases of asbestos fiber by Flintkote. And
!
13
for that purpose, I'd like to review a little bit about
j
14
what we discussed yesterday.
!
15
MR. SCHROETER:
Kindly tell us who your
j
16
client is.
j
17
MR.JEFFRIES:
I represent Lake Asbestos
j
18
of Quebec, Limited.
j
19
q.
Is it correct, sir, that Flintkote Company purchased j
20
its asbestos requirements from Flintkote Mines, Limited?
21
A.
Yes, sir.
22
Q.
Was that true throughout the existence of the two
23
companies?
24
A.
To the best of my knowledge.
25
Q.
What records reflect purchases of asbestos fiber?
26
A.
Mine records.
27
Q.
I'm sorry, sir?
28
A.
Flintkote Mines, Limited records.
croo <t>oj
co co
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTMANO REPORTERS
F v AM FLD
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224
1
Q.
Are those records still in existence?
2
A.
Partially.
3
Q*
What do you mean when you say partially?
4
A.
I believe the oldest records we have start in 1959
j
5
or '60.
{
I
6
Q.
And are they current through the closing of the
j
7
Flintkote Mines, Limited operation in 1981?
|
8
A.
Yes, sir.
!
II
9
Q.
Where are those records main*tained?
iI
i
10
A.
I have copies of them in my office. I am not
J
I
11
certain where the original records are.
j
!
12
Q.
Do you know who the custodian of the records would
j
13
be?
14
A.
To the best of my knowledge, legal counsel, be it
15
in-house or outside house, would have them.
j
i
16
Q.
What in-house legal counsel would be responsible
j
j
17
for the custody of those records?
;
I
18 A.
I'm not positive.Our corporate office, as
j
19
Flintkote corporate office, closed a few months ago, and
j
i
20
the in-house legal responsibility is now in the Genstar
21
corporate offices in San Francisco
22
Q.
Do you know if documents from Flintkote's head
23
quarters were transferred to Genstar in San Francisco?
24
A.
I don't know what has been done with the corporate
j
j
25
documents.
j
26
Q.
Have you been instructed to maintain those documents `
27
that you have in your office?
!
28
A.
Yes, sir.
_______________________ ____________
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
c e r t if ie d Sh o r t h a n d r e p o r t e r s
| _______ 1
225
1
Q.
When you retire, have you been given instructions
2
what to do with them upon retiring?
3
A.
No.
4
Q.
Have any of the documents that reflect purchases
5
of asbestos fiber been destroyed, to your knowledge?
6
A.
Not to my knowledge.
7
Q.
Can you describe for me --
|
8
A.
May I respond to that questionfurther,please?
9
Q.
Yes.
10
A.
The Flintkote Company has afile retention policy
11
which has been in existence for a number of years. And I
j
12
cannot tell you what the policy was for Mine records,
;
i
13
because it is a lengthy document. Whatever documents
j
14
existed from Mine records, they may have been destroyed
j
15
in accordance with that policy. But I can't tell you
j
16
what policy that is.
17
Q.
You don't know how the policy operated then?
18
A.
The only other thing I can tell you is there was
19
a flood in 1958 -- '57 or '58 at the mine, and a substantial I
20
portion of the mine records were destroyed at that time.
21
Q.
But to your knowledge, you have copies of the records
22
reflecting purchases of asbestos fibers from 1959 through
23
1981 in your office?
24
A.
Yes, sir.
25
Q.
Who had access to the records reflecting purchases
26
of asbestos fiber besides yourself?
27
A.
Our in-house legal counsel and our outside legal
28
counsel.
r outt o<o
*> c_n
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CEBTIFIEO SHORTHAND REPORTERS
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226
1
Q.
Would you describe for me the types of records
2
that reflect purchases of asbestos fiber?
3
A.
The ones that I have are basically worksheets.
4
Some of them in longhand; some of them have been typed;
5
some are combination of typewritten information and
6
longhand information. And it shows volumes only.
7
Q.
When you say it shows volumes only, is it by year
8
or month, or how are the volumes tabulated?
9
A.
By year and grade of asbestos.
10
Q.
Do those worksheets also indicate thesupplier?
11
A.
Yes, sir.
12
Q.
Who prepared the worksheets?
13
A.
Somebody at the Flintkote Mines. I do not know
14
specifically.
15
Q.
Do you know when theywere prepared?
16 A.
I do not.
17
Q.
Do you know thepurpose of their preparation?
18 A.
I do not.
19
Q.
Do you know whether there are in existence any
20
purchase orders that would reflect purchases of asbestos
21
fiber?
22
A.
Yes, there are some records.
23
Q.
Where are those?
24
A.
They would be in my retained files -- The ones I
25
know about are in my retained files in Irving, Texas.
26
There would also be in Irving some retained files
27
from the Chicago Heights floor tile plant.
28
Q.
I'm sorry, from the --
uroioo:j*
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED Sh o r t h a n d REPORTERS
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uvuu o i*. *1 ft ft "<
227
1
A.
Chicago Heights floor tile plant.
2
Those are the only specific records I know about.
3
Q.
Would those purchase orders that we're discussing
4
be purchase orders by Flintkote of asbestos from Flintkote
5
Mines, Limited?
6
A.
Yes, sir.
7
Q.
Would thosepurchase ordersindicate
the source
8
from which Flintkote Mines, Limited obtained fiber?
9
A.
They would, in possibly not every case, but in most
10
cases would designate the grade of fiber which would identify
11
the producer of that fiber.
12 Q. Did The Flintkote Company ever request from Flintkote
13 Mines that asbestos be purchased from a certain supplier 14 other than Flintkote Mines?
15 A.
Yes, sir.
16 Q.
What would the reasons be for such a request?
17
A.
Because each grade of asbestos fiber and within
18 each supplier grade by grade, the asbestos fiber varies
19 in its physical characteristics and its performance |
20 characteristics.
j
21 Q.
And, therefore, it differs in its ultimate use,
I
22 doesn't it?
23 A. 24 Q.
Yes, sir. Are there, in your retained files, purchase orders
25 from Flintkote Mines, Limited to other suppliers?
26 A. 27 Q.
No, sir. Do you --
28 A.
My personal retained files, when you say "you."
PATRICIACALLAHAN& ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED Sm ORTHANO REPORTERS
FvAM 01? 33 3 ^ JrT!l uf; uf` fvt fut ru. oni jcor.
228
1
Q.
Yes. Okay.
2
Do you know if any such documents exist?
3
A.
No, I do not.
4
Q.
Are there in existence any sales confirmation
5
documents or similar document from any supplier of
6
asbestos fiber to Flintkote Mines?
|
1
7
A.
Restate the question.
j
8
Q.
I don't think that came out very well.
9
Do you have any sales confirmation documents from
10
suppliers of asbestos fiber to Flintkote Mines, Limited?
j
11
A.
I do not.
{
12
Q.
Do you know if anysuch similar document is in
J
I
13
existence?
!
14
A.
I don't know.
15
Q.
I'd like to ask you, sir, if you would, to look again j
16
at what was marked as Exhibit 3 yesterday, which I
J
I
17
understand to be an Exhibit B to answers to interrogatories
18
of Flintkote Mines, Limited in the St. Jacque and Beauregard j
19
actions in Los Angeles.
20
Who prepared Plaintiffs' Exhibit 3?
21
A.
I do not know.
22
Q.
This document, sir, consists of two pages. And
23
it ends with the year 1971 in the left-hand column on the
24
second page, correct?
i
25
A.
Yes, sir.
! I
26
Q.
Do you know if any such similar document to this
27
exists for the years 1972 through the closing of Flintkote
28
Mines, Limited in 1981?
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
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1
MR. SCHROETER:
That assumes a fact not in
2
evidence. That the mines were open until *81.
3
Tell him, Mr. Hooker.
4
MR. JEFFRIES:
Q. When did the Flintkote
5
Mines close?
6
A.
December '71.
7
Q.
During the period 1971 through the present, did
8
Flintkote Company continue to use asbestos in any of its
j
9
products?
10
A.
Yes, sir. Until --
11
Did you say present?
{
12
Q.
Yes.
|
i
13
A.
No. The answer is no.
j
14
Q.
In what year did Flintkote stop using asbestos in
j
\
15
its products?
|
16
A.
I'm mixed up again.
|
j
17
1982, to the best of my recollection, we stopped
18
using fiber.
19
Q.
During the years 1971 through 1982, did Flintkote
20
Company purchase asbestos fiber from Flintkote Mines,
i
21
Limited?
22
A.
Yes, sir.
23
Q.
I take it, however, that from 1971 on, Flintkote
24
Mines, Limited did not operate a mine, correct?
j
|
25
A.
From 1971 on, Flintkote Mines did not operate a
j
26
mine.
27
Q.
So did Flintkote Mines, Limited purchase all of
!j
28
its asbestos fiber from other suppliers?
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTMANO REPORTERS
0193335
1 FLO* 00003260
230
1
MR. SCHROETER:
in what time period?
2
MR. JEFFRIES:
I'm in 1971 to 1982, after
3
Flintkote Mines, Limited is no longer owning and operating
4
the mine.
5
Q.
Were all purchases of asbestos fiber from other
6
asbestos suppliers?
7
A.
Yes, sir.
8
Q.
Did Flintkote Company, during the period 1971 to
9
1982, own any asbestos mine?
10
A.
Not a mine.
11
Q.
What did it own?
12
A.
A deposit.
13
Q.
Where was the deposit located?
14
A.
Northham, Quebec, Canada.
15
Q.
Did Flintkote Mines, Limited obtain from this
16
Northham deposit asbestos fiber for use by Flintkote
17
Company in its products?
18
A.
No, sir.
19
Q.
During the period 1971 through 1982, who had
20
responsibility for the purchase of asbestos fiber at
21
Flintkote Mines, Limited?
22
A.
Dalna Poirier.
23
Q.
Is that the same Poirier we spoke of yesterday?
24
A.
Yes, sir.
25
Q.
And where was he located?
26
A.
Thetford Mines, Canada.
27
Q.
To whom did he report at Flintkote Company?
28
A.
I can't -- I never saw an organization chart. I
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHANO REPORTERS
h'.'AM 6u i 9 ' FLD 0000
CO o . ro o:
231
1
don't know specifically. To the best of my knowledge, he
2
reported to the president of The Flintkote Company.
|
3
Q*
Did the individual at Flintkote Company responsible
j
4
for the purchasing of building materials contact Flintkote 1
!
5
Mines, Limited for Flintkote's asbestos needs?
|
6
A.
The procedure was that each plant in The Flintkote
\
I
7
Company requiring asbestos fiber placed their orders with
8
Flintkote Mines, Limited for any Quebec asbestos fiber they I
i
9
required.
!
j
j 10
Q.
Would these plants also request the supplier from
I
Il
11 whom they wanted the fiber purchased?
12
A.
Again, by product designation or identifying the
j
13
source. One or the other.
;
14
Q.
When Flintkote Mines, Limited purchased asbestos
j
15
fiber from other suppliers, would it then instruct that
;
i
16
supplier to ship the fiber to a designated Flintkote
j
17
Company plant?
18
A.
Yes, sir,
i!
19
Q.
Are there records in existence which will enable
j
20
us to determine what asbestos supplier supplied which
21
Flintkote Company plant?
22
A.
Yes.
j
23
Q.
What is thenatureof those records?
I
24
A.
Those same records I spoke of before, I believe the j
25
oldest records start in1959.
j
26
Q.
And those were the same records we discussed before,
27
where copies are in your office in Irving, Texas, correct?
28
A.
Yes, sir.
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
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0193335
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232
1
Q.
And you don't know for sure where other copies are,
2
correct?
3
A.
Only in legal counsel files.
4
Q.
Does Flintkote Mines, Limited still exist?
5
A-
It is still a company, nonoperating company.
6
Q.
Is Dalna Poinier still there?
7
A.
As part of the company?
8
Q.
Yes.
9
A.
No, sir.
10
Q.
Where does Flintkote Mines, Limited maintain its
11
records?
12
A.
I 'm not positive.
13
Q.
This document, Plaintiffs' Exhibit 3, states that
14
it's a summary of fiber used by The Flintkote Company.
15
Do you know what was used to compile this summary?
16 A.
No, sir, I do not.
17
Q.
If you were to prepare a summary such as this, do
18 you believe you could do it?
19 A.
It would come from these records I have talked
20
about that I have in my files.
21
Q.
So if you were asked to --
22 A.
Let me look at this again.
23
(Witness examining document.)
24
Yes. My statement was correct.
23
Q.
So you would go to the documents that we've been
26
discussing in order to compile this summary, correct?
27
A.
Yes, sir.
28
Q.
To your knowledge, is Exhibit 3 accurate?
c
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
FvAM QiyS'j^ F L D 0 0 0 0 3 -w
233
1
A.
No, sir.
2
Q.
To what extent is it inaccurate?
3
A.
During that period of time, our own mines supplied
4
fiber to our Flintkote operating companies.
5
Q.
So that I understand the import of Exhibit 3, sir,
6
is this more correctly termed a summary of fiber used by
7
The Flintkote Company purchased from outside suppliers other
8
than Flintkote Mines, Limited?
9
A.
To the extent that it is correct, yes.
10
Q.
But, for example, if we look here on the left here
11
on this year --
12
I might note that are no years on the left on the
13
first page.
14
A.
Well, they were not photocopied.
15
MR. SCHROETER:
We'll talk to Mr. Silberfeld
16
about that.
17
MR. SILBERFELD:
Am I in trouble again?
18
MR. JEFFRIES:
Q. Let's look, sir, at 1970
19
where it lists there one, two, three, four -- five suppliers
20
of* asbestos, correct?
21
A.
Yes, sir.
22
Q.
Would the supply to Flintkote Company by Flintkote
23
Mines, Limited be in addition to those outside suppliers?
24
A.
Yes, sir.
25
Q.
So what this document represents, to your knowledge,
26
is a summary of outside suppliers other than Flintkote
27
Mines, Limited?
28
A.
Yes, sir.
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES CERTIFIED SHORTHANO REPORTERS
Ci.ftrt
r i r.
~
0OQ'J=i6H
234
1
Q.
And to your knowledge, this was compiled from the
2
documents maintained in your office or documents similar
3
to that?
4
A.
I don't know where it was compiled.
5
Q.
Did you review this document at the time you
6
reviewed the answers to interrogatories?
7
A.
I must not have.
!
i!
8
Q.
Do you know if any such similar document has been
9
prepared for the period 1971 through 1982?
I
10
A.
I don't know for certain whether it has or not.
1
11
Q.
As to the documents that we've been discussing
;
i
12
reflecting purchases of asbestos fiber, have copies of any |
|
13
of those documents been produced in any of the lawsuits
14
that bring us here today?
|
15
A.
16
Q.
Not to my knowledge.
j
I
Have they been produced, to your knowledge, inany
j
17
lawsuits to which The Flintkote Company is a party?
18
A.
Not to ray knowledge.
19
Q.
Have you been requested byanyone tocompile those
j
i
20
documents for production?
!
21
A.
What do you mean by compile?
I
22
Q.
Have you been asked by anyone to compile for
j
23
production, get together and ready for a response to a
24
request to produce documents, those documents which
25
reflect the purchases of asbestos fiber from The Flintkote j
26
Company for any period of time?
I
27
A.
You mean assemble documents, when you saycompile?
28
Q.
Yes.
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
FyAil 0Iso-;.-,c F'-1' l!003265
235
1
A.
No.
2
Q.
During the time from 1971 through 1982 when Flintkote j
3
plants submitted their asbestos fiber needs to Flintkote
4
Mines, Limited, was a copy of their document making the
5
request sent anywhere else within Flintkote Company?
;
6
A.
Not to my knowledge.
j
7
Q.
What is the title of the document used by a Flintkote j
i 8 plant to obtain asbestos from Flintkote Mines, Limited j
9
during the 1971 to 1982 period?
j
10
A.
Purchase order.
jI
11
Q.
Is there any other document other than a purchase
|
j
12
order that would have been used by a plant to obtain mine
j
13
from Flintkote Mines, Limited?
j
i
14
MR. JUDY:
You mean obtain asbestos.
!
|
15
MR. JEFFRIES:
I 'm sorry. Thank you.
!
I
16
THE WITNESS:
That's the only thing I know
I
17
of. There could have been phone calls or other means of
!
t
18
doing it. But the official document would have been a
19
purchase order.
20
MR. JEFFRIES:
Q. If it was ever done by
21
a phone call, to your knowledge, would that have been
22
followed up by some document to reflect that request?
23
A.
Our U.S.A. plants were instructed to do so.
24
Q.
Were there occasions when one Flintkote plant would j
25
be in need of asbestos and would obtain it from another
26
Flintkote plant?
i
27
A.
Yes, sir.
28
Q.
Do you know how often that would occur?
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIEO s h o r t h a n d REPORTERS
fr11 a u rL
6Qi9m* 000S3264
236
1
A.
I could only answer, infrequently.
2
Q.
Would there be documents which would reflect those
,
3
requests and transfers of asbestos between plants?
|
4
A.
Originally, there were documents.
j
5
Q.
When you say originally, did the company at one time j
f
6
stop using documents to reflect those transactions?
j
7
A.
No, sir.
j
i
8
Q.
Are you saying you don't know if such documents
j
j
9
exist?
10
A.
I don't know if any such documents exist today.
f
11
Q.
What would be the title of a document used by
| i
!
j 12
one plant to request asbestos from another plant at Flintkote
i
13
Company?
I
!
14
A.
A purchase order.
I
15
Q.
And that purchase order would be internally
|
16
generated? For example, the plant would generate it and
j
17
it would indicate that it was purchasing asbestos from
18
another Flintkote Company plant, correct?
19 A.
Yes, sir.
20
MR. JEFFRIES:
Thank you very much.
21
MR. SCHROETER:
A clarifying question on
22
Plaintiffs' 3, Mr. Hooker.
23
The producers of fiber listed on Plaintiffs' 3,
24
are they companies from whom Flintkote Mines obtained
25
fiber in order to satisfy the needs of The Flintkote
26
Company, or are they fiber suppliers with whom The Flintkote
27
Company dealt directly?
28
THE WITNESS:
I can only take the literal
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SMORTHANO REPORTERS
F--.r.tf 0 0 0 0 3 2 6 '
r 5-
237
1
translation of "used" as meaning used by our Flintkote
)
2
plants. I do not know the source of that information.
3
MR. SCHKOETER:
My question is whether, as
4
things were done in '61 to '71, if Flintkote Mines was
I
5
the intermediary between The Flintkote Company and the
j
6
suppliers mentioned on this exhibit, or whether The
j
7
Flintkote Company dealt directly with these producers
i
8
that are shown on Plaintiffs' 3.
|
9
THE WITNESS:
The Flintkote plants in the
|
10
United States purchased fiber from these companies listed
j
11
on Exhibit 3 by placing purchase orders on Flintkote
12
Mines, Limited.
13
MR. SCHROETER:
And that is true of this
j
II
14
entire list of producers on Plaintiffs' Exhibit 3?
j
15
THE WITNESS:
All of the peoplethere are
j
16
Quebec asbestos mining companies.
j
l
17
MR. SCHROETER:
Thank you, Art.
18
Since you were late, Mr. Silberfeld, I think
19
another defendant has first option.
j
i
20
MR. SILBERFELD:
Sure.
j
21
22
EXAMINATION BY MR. MURRAY
23
MR. MURRAY:
Q. Mr. Hooker, my name is
24
John Murray, and I represent United States Gypsum. And
j
25
because, your deposition is being noticed in most of the
j
26
litigation west of the Mississippi, I have a few questions. ;
j
27
First of all, I wasn't here yesterday, so bear
28
with me a little bit. I will try not to repeat.
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTMANO REPORTERS
C | | A lu
PLb"` o?1?333
238
1
But it's my understanding that Flintkote has a
2
Building Products Division; is that correct?
3
A.
Yes. By name, at one point in time, we have had a
4
Building Products Division.
II
5
Q.
Did you have any direct responsibility for the sales i
I
6
of Flintkote's joint compound products?
j
I
7
A.
No, sir.
j
|
8
Q.
And I take it Flintkote was not a manufacturer of
j
9
those products; is that right?
j
10
A.
We never manufactured joint compound, to the best
j
11
of my knowledge.
ji
it
12
Q.
So that what Flintkote was doing was selling to
i
t
13
secondary -- either to direct users or distributors, a
i
jj 14
product which had been manufactured by someone else, and
j 15
then Flintkote's name was put on it; is that right?
|
16
A.
Yes, sir.
j
17
Q.
Was the name that was put on it Flintrock?
'
18
A.
I don't remember specifically.
19
Q.
Do you remember any of the brand-like names that
20
would be put on the packages of these products?
j
21
A.
1 have seen the labels. I don't remember exactly
j
22
the wording on the label.
|
!
23
Q.
It's my understanding that you did have some
J
24
knowledge about Ruco and the products that were purchased
25
from them. That's an Atlanta company; is that right?
j
26
A.
The knowledge I have is one which was given to me
27
by other people in my company.
'
28
Q.
So when you were given information about that subject,:
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED Sh o r t h a n d REPORTERS
.t-iii 0193335 r. 000 3 2 6 V
239
1
it came from other people?
2
A.
To the best of my knowledge and memory, I w a s s t a t i n g
3
what I learned from other people.
4
Q.
Well, do you have personal knowledge yourself that
3
The Flintkote Company ever purchased materials from the
6
United States Gypsum Company which were joint compounds,
7
which Flintkote then resold as its own?
I
I
8
A.
Specifically, no. The answer is no.
9
Q.
Has someone in the company told you that?
10
A.
I believe they have.
ii
11
Q.
Who?
i I
j
12
A.
Either from copies of records that I have seen,
i
I
i
13
be them invoices or in reports from our product manager
14
for Gypsum.
15
Q.
16
A.
And who is that?
i
Presently, it is Mr. Houser, Jim Houser, H-o-u-s-e- i
17
Q.
Now I did want to show you, these are answers to
18
interrogatories, and I apologize that I don't have the
19
questions. They're one of these sets of interrogatories
20
that were propounded in a large number of cases.
21
Maybe we could just have this marked first.
22
MR. SCHROETER:
I have to tell you, Mr. Murray,
23
that you're seeking an exemption here from a rule that we
24
have followed. Namely, an answer that is presented to
25
the witness has to be accompanied by the question, so that
26
not only he but all of us truly know the meaning of the
27
answer.
28
Do you have the date of the response and something
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1
that might enable some other counsel here to come up with
2
the questions?
3
MR. MURRAY:
Well, I do have the date of
4
the responses. They are dated May the 9th.
5
MR. SCHROETER:
6
moment.
Let's go off the record for a
7
(Whereupon, there was a discussion off the record.)
8
(WHEREUPON, A PHOTOCOPY OF A
TEN-PAGE DOCUMENT ENTITLED
9
"THE FLINTKOTE COMPANY'S
RESPONSES TO PLAINTIFF'S
10
INTERROGATORIES - SET NO. 1,"
A PHOTOCOPY OF A ONE-PAGE
11
DOCUMENT ENTITLED "CERTIFICATION,"
AND A PHOTOCOPY OF A THREE-PAGE
12
PROOF OF SERVICE BY MAIL, WERE
MARKED AS DEFENDANTS' EXHIBIT A
13
FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
14
MR. SCHROETER:
Back on the record.
15
THE WITNESS:
What am I supposed to do now?
16
MR. MURRAY:
Q. Would you look, sir, at
17
two of these answers. These are answers to the interroga
18
tories. The interrogatories were propounded by the law
19
office of Steven Kazan here in the Bay Area. As I said
20
before, I don't have the questions, but the answers are in
21
paragraph form, and the answers I'd like to direct your
22
attention to are Answers No. 20 and No. 43.
23
MR. SCHROETER:
The record will reflect that
24
no one spoke up in the room offering the questions for our
25
use, so we haven't got them.
26
MR. MURRAY:
Do you have the questions?
27
MR. GRELL:
I have the questions, but I
28
don't think they match up with Steve Kazan's.
toto
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1
MR- SCHROETER:
Go on, Jack.
2
MR. MURRAY:
Well, I have reviewed these
3
questions before, but I only have them in my recollection.
4
The general nature of each of these questions has to do
5
with other companies that you've dealt with, and the ques
6
tions were not specific to any one kind of a product.
7
But the answers are, No. 20 was just other
8
companies, and Question No. 43 had to do with other
9
companies' products that Flintkote had sold after rebranding
10
them. That's the general nature of the thrust of the
11
question.
12
Q.
And because I don't have the question, I know that
13
you're not going to be able to give as good an answer as
14
you would be able to if you saw the question. But I'd
15
like you to review your answer, anyway, because you did
16
verify these, and I 'll ask you some questions.
17
MR. SCHROETER:
So now h e 's going to look
o
<M
18
Answer
19
MR. MURRAY:
Yes , Answer No. 20 and No.
20
THE WITNESS :
{Examining document.)
21
Yes , sir.
22
MR. MURRAY:
Q. Have you looked at No.
23
MR. SCHROETER:
No. He's looking at 20.
24
THE WITNESS:
I would like to take the
25
questions one at a time, if I may.
!
I
26
MR. MURRAY:
Q. That's fine with me.
\
27
Anyway you want to do it. I'm not really interested in
28
the other companies, except in a general way.
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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1
Do you recall giving the information about W. w.
2
Henry Company, Parr, the other companies listed in Answer
3
No. 20? Do you remember that?
4
A.
I have given answers on this general subject many
5
times. Specifically on this response, I don't remember
|
6
specifically on this one.
j
7
Q.
Do you remember giving the information that Flintkote I
8
purchased joint compound products from Ruco of Atlanta
j
9
which were sold under the Flintkote label?
i
!
10
MR. SCHROETER:
Counsel, he just told you that j
11
he doesn't specifically remember this particular answer.
12
He sees that there is a document that has this answer.
I
13
He also sees that his name is affixed by way of certifica
14
tion.
13
MR. MURRAY:
Q. My question didn't even
16
have any one of the written answers specifically in mind.
17
Do you just remember giving the information that
j 18
Flintkote purchased joint compounds from Ruco of Atlanta
19
which were sold under Flintkote's label?
20
A.
I have given that information., yes.
21
Q.
Do you recall giving theinformation thatCelotex
J
22
Corporation furnished joint cement, powder and ready-mixed, j
23
to Flintkote?
24
A.
I recall that.
25
Q.
Do you remember that?
26
A.
Yes, sir.
j
27
Q.
Do you remember where you got theinformation about
i
28
Ruco of Atlanta which you put into this answer to
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1
interrogatories ?
2
A.
To the best of my memory, it came from our product
3
managers or manager.
4
Q.
Was that personally Jim Houser, or was that an
j
5
assistant of his?
j
6
A.
It could have been his assistant.
j
j
7
0.
What's that fellow's name?
f
j
8
A.
Brittan.
j
9
Q.
That's his last name?
j
10
A.
B-r-i-t-t-a-n. I'm trying to remember his first
11
name. He's no longer with the company.
I
12
Q.
Do you remember where you got theinformationabout ;
13
obtaining the joint cement from Celotex Corporation?
!
14
A.
Any information I would have obtained concerning
15
joint cement would have come from out product manager
I
16
department.
:
i
17
Q.
The information that you provided in this answer,
18
No. 20, has specific dates for Ruco of Atlanta. Was that
19
also provided to you by someone in Mr. Houser's division?
j
i
20
A.
I don't know where those specific dates came from.
21
Q.
There are no dates provided with regard to Celotex
22
Corporation. Would that be true in the instance of you
23
giving information here because no dates have been provided
24
to you?
j
25
A.
I didn't say that no dates had been provided to me. i
26
Q.
Were --
!
!
27
A.
I said I don't know where these dates came from.
28
Q.
Regarding the Celotex Corporation, were you given
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1
any dates for the period of time that the Celotex
2
Corporation furnished the ready-mixed and powder joint
j
3
cement to Flintkote?
4
A.
I don't know specifically about Celotex. I have been
5
given dates of purchase from various people or various
j
I
6
companies.
!
!t
7
Q.
I 'd like you to review No. 43 now. This is just
8
the answer, again.
I
9
A.
(Witness examining document.)
j
10
Yes, sir.
i1
i
11
Q.
In this answer, it indicates that from the period
!
12
1955 to 1976, that Flintkote purchased joint treatment
13
compound from several manufacturers. Is that information
i
14
which was provided to you by someone else?
i
I
15
A.
Yes, sir.
I
16
Q.
So, again, w e 're dealing with a situation where
j
17
it's not your own personal knowledge. You're providing
18
company information from some other source.
!
19
A.
I would assemble the information.
20
Q.
Were two of those manufacturers Ruco of Atlanta
j
21
and Celotex Corporation, which are mentioned in Answer
j
22
No. 20?
23
A.
To the best of my recollection, yes.
24
Q.
And you notice that Question 43 says, "See response ,
25
to Interrogatory No. 20."
j
26
A.
Yes, sir.
j 27
Q.
Do you have knowledge of the names of any other
28
manufacturers besides Celotex and Ruco?
__________________________________________________ _ ________ i
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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1
A.
Yes, sir.
2
Q.
Who?
3
A.
Specifically, I know that Texas Textured Paint
j
4
Company was a supplier. And now I have to -- That's the
jI
I
5
only specific one that I personally know about.
!
I
6
Q.
But that wasn't put in this answer, because
i
)
7
Flintkote owns Texas Textured Paint; is that right?
i
8
A.
No, sir, that is not the reason.
j
i
j
9
Q.
Well then, what was the reason?
ji
10
A.
jj 1 1
I don't know. I don't know what the question is.
MR. SCHROETER:
Namely, Question 43.
12
MR. MURRAY;
Namely, Question 43. That's
j
i 13
right.
i
14
Q.
Did Flintkote obtain joint compounds and spray
|
15
textures from Texas Textured Paint Company?
'
16
A.
Yes, sir.
; I
t
17
Q.
Did Flintkote obtain products from that company
j
18
during the period 1955 to 1976?
j
19
A.
I cannot answer when it started, but I do know
I
20
that they were doing it in 1946.
jI
21
Q.
Do you recall when Flintkote purchased Texas
j
j 22 Textured Paint Company? I I
23
A.
To the best of my knowledge, they never purchased
| 1
i
24
Texas Textured Paint Company.
I
25
Q.
I could be wrong.
26
MR. SCHROETER;
Maybe we own something we
27 don't know about.
28
MR. MURRY:
Lucky you.
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
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1
Q.
246
i
Well, just so that this doesn't run through h u n d r e d s
2
of lawsuits and all, I take it, then, that your testimony
3
with regard to United States Gypsum company, that's U.S.G.,
4
was, from what I understand, that you recall transactions
5
with U.S.G., the company, that were not specific to the
6
type of product that I've been talking about here, joint
7
compounds ; is that true?
8
A.
Yes. There were other transactions with U.S.G.
9
Q.
In other words, U.S.G. makes paper and, I mean, just
10
ordinary wood fiber paper and is a miner of raw gypsum,
11
and you recall transactions with U.S.G. with respect to
12
those products. 'Personally, you recall those things,
13
don't you?
14
A.
Yes, sir.
15
Q.
And I take it you just simply do not have any
16
knowledge with respect to transactions specifically
17
regarding joint compound type materials. Would that be
18
true?
19
A.
That is correct.
20
MR. MURRAY:
Thank you, sir.
21
MR. SILBERFELD:
Anybody else?
22
MR. SCHROETER:
I think it's your turn, Roman.
23
MR. SILBERFELD:
I apologize for being late.
24
25
FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR. SILBERFELD
26
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. Mr. Hooker, I'd like to
27
continue my questioning, and I'll try not to repeat
28
questions that other counsel may have asked.
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1
I'd like to go over the product groups that we
2
spoke about yesterday that Flintkote manufactured that
3
contained asbestos, and then I have a question about those.
4
Do you know when Flintkote, for the first time,
5
gave any warning of the possible health effects from the
6
use of its floor tile material that contained asbestos?
7
MR. SCHROETER:
And you're speaking now in
j
8
this question about consumer products or, rather, completed
9
products rather than raw fiber?
10
MR. SILBERFELD:
Correct.
11
THE WITNESS:
I cannot remember specifically, j
12
It was in the '70's. The year, I do not recall.
j
13
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. With respect to the
j
14
asbestos cement pipe products manufactured by Flintkote,
j
15
do you recall whether a warning was ever given of possible !
i
16
health effects associated with that product at anytime?
!
i
17
A.
To the best of my knowledge, the only warning, if
j
j 18
that is characterizing what I 'm about to say correctly,
l
19
it was in -a work practice pamphlet. And to the best of
j
I
20
my knowledge, it was prepared by the Asbestos Cement Pipe
21
Association and was used as an industry safety piece.
22
Q.
Do you recall when that was?
23
A.
Only prior to the time we closed the Ravenna asbestos
24
cement pipe plant.
23
Q.
And when was that?
t
26
A.
Sometime in the '70's. I can't remember the exact
|
ii
27
year.
j
28
Q.
When was it that Flintkote began the manufacture of j
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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249
1
A.
There were some warnings given.
2
Q.
Do you recall when for the first time?
3
A.
Sometime/ again, in the '70's.
4
Q.
To your knowledge, was any warning of the possible
3
health effects of asbestos exposure from the use of the
i
6
finished manufactured product given by Flintkote to any
7
consumer of that product in the decade of the 1960's?
j
8
Maybe you'd like to have that question reread, sir.
9
A.
I'm hazy on product. That's all.
10
Q.
Well, by product, I mean finished manufactured
i
11
product as opposed to raw material, re fiber.
J
12
Q.
I'm not certain. Ibelieve the answer is no.
j
13
Q.
In any of the jobs that you've had with Flintkote,
14
have you ever seen Flintkote's floor tile being installed
j
15
in some application, some building or facility?
j
16
A.
Yes.
!i
17
Q.
You've seen that a number of times, I take it?
|
ii 18
A.
No, not a number of times.
j 19
Q.
One or two times?
20
A.
One or two times.
J
21
Q.
Do you recall what types of facilities they were
22
where the tile was being installed?
23
A.
Commercial.
I
24
Q.
Offices and warehouses, that type of thing?
j
25
A.
Offices.
j
26
Q.
Do you know whether the tilebeing installed was
i
i 27
asbestos-contained floor tile?
28
A.
It was.
j
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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1
Q.
What was the occasion for your witnessing the
2
installation?
3
A.
I don't remember.
4
Q.
Did you see the product -- by "product," I mean
j
5
the asbestos-containing floor tile manufactured by
j
6
Flintkote -- being cut by workers?
|
i
7
A. ' Yes, sir.
j
8
Q.
Did you see the floor tile being broken in anyway? i
9
A.
Not purposely.
!
10
Q.
In the course of witnessing this installation,
j
1
11
did you see whether the operation of installing the floor
j
12
tile produced any dust that was visible?
|
13
A.
Did not.
j
14
Q.
Did you witness whether the installation of the new II
15
tile also included removal ofold tile?
j
16
A.
Other than my own personal work with floor tiles
!
Ii
17
for my own personal use, I have not seen such a procedure.
j
18
Q.
So you may have removed some in your own kitchen;
j
19
would that be correct?
i
20
A.
Yes, sir.
21
Q.
But you've not seen it done in commercial
22
installations?
j
i
23
A.
No, sir.
24
Q.
Do you have any information for us about the life
,
25
range of Flintkote asbestos-containingfloor tile?
j
26
In other words, how long it has a usable life for?
27
MR. SCHROETER:
28
use?
Under what circumstances of i
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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1
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. Well, if it varied so.
2
widely because of use, tell us that and we'll try to break
3
it down.
4
MR. SCHROETER:
Don't answer that.
5
THE WITNESS:
I can't answer it.
6
MR. SCHROETER:
Just a moment.
7
Counsel, make a more concise question, please.
j
8
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. Are you aware of any
j
i
9
studies ever done by your company to determine what the
10
life range of its floor tile product is?
11
A.
None to my knowledge.
12
Q.
Does the usable life of the floor tile depend upon
j
13
the traffic and use that the floor tile is put to?
J
14
A.
That would be one factor.
I
15
Q.
What other factors would go into the equation?
16
A.
Exposure to the elements.
17
Q.
So we have traffic, exposure to elements. What else? j
18
A.
Cleaning procedures.
ji
19
Q.
Anything else that you could think of at thistime?
1
20
A.
The type of facility that it's installed in.
I
21
Q.
Would that have something to do with traffic as well?
22
A.
Traffic would be a factor in that.
23
Q.
Are you aware, Mr. Hooker, of any information or
24
data that Flintkote has compiled which would indicate the j
25
usable life of its floor tile in commercial buildings?
j
i
26
A.
I know of no such data.
!
27
Q.
Are you aware of any advertising material or
j
28
p r o m o t i o n a l material put out by or on behalf of Flintkote
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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1
which advertises or promotes any particular usable life
2
for its floor tile? In other words, says something like,
3
"This will last ten years," or twenty years, something like
4
that?
5
A.
No, sir.
6
Q.
During your years with the company, have you ever
7
seen Flintkote asbestos-containing floor tile being removed
8
anywhere?
9
A.
No, sir.
10
MR. SCHROETER:
You mean other than what he
11
himself may have done in his own house?
12
MR. SILBERFELD:
Right.
13
THE WITNESS:
Well, I did some myself. But
14
I never seen anybody else do it.
15
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. You've never seen it done
16
on any large scale, meaning larger than a kitchen or a
17
surface floor; is that correct?
18
A.
That is correct.
19
Q.
Was it customary for you, as the manager of
20
purchasing for the Building Materials Division, to visit
21
customer installations, customers of Flintkote?
22
A.
No, I didn't under that job responsibility.
23
Q.
Did you under any job responsibility, other than
24
the early years when you were in sales?
25
A.
Did you use the word "customary"?
26
Q.
Yes.
27
A.
No. It was not customary for me to do that under any
28
job responsibility.
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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1
Q.
During any of your jobs, did you ever visit any
2
shipyard installations?
3
A.
No, sir.
4
Q.
Never been on board a ship where construction work
5
was going on?
!
1
6
A.
Yes, I've been aboard ship when construction work
j
1
7
was done.
j
1
8
Q.
Tell us about that.
9
MR. JUDY:
Tell you what about it?
i
10
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. When was it?
1I
11
A.
Pardon?
i
If
12
Q.
When was that?
1
i
13
A.
From 1943.
i
1
14 Q . Prior to the time you joined Flintkote? i1
13
A.
Yes, sir.
i \
i
16
Q.
What were the circumstances of that?
!
17
A.
I was an officer in the Navy.
li
18
Q.
And what was going on at the time this occurred?
19
A.
The ship I was to help commission was under
ii
20
construction.
1 i
1
21
Q.
Did you have some responsibility with respect to
22
the construction?
23
A.
24
Q.
Not with respect to the construction. Did you observe the installation of any materials
23
which you either knew or suspected to contain asbestos
26
at that time?
27
A.
I was not concerned in any way.
28
MR. SCHROETER:
The answer is no?
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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1
THE WITNESS:
Rephrase the question or
2
restate the question, if you will.
3
(Whereupon, the record was read by the reporter.)
4
THE WITNESS:
I don't know.
5
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. During any of your jobs
6
with Flintkote, have you participated in the development
7
of a substitute product for the asbestos-containing floor
8
tile manufactured by Flintkote?
9
A.
Yes.
10
Q.
When did you first have any part in that?
11
A.
Sometime in the late '70's or early '80's.
12
Q.
And what was your role?
13
A.
Purchasing agent.
14
Q.
You were commissioned to go out and try to buy raw
15
materials that could be used in a substitute floor tile?
16
A.
Tried to find --
17
MR. SCHROETER:
You don't mean a substitute
18
floor tile. You mean --
19
MR. SILBERFELD:
Substitute asbestos in the
20
floor tile.
21
THE WITNESS:
Yes, sir.
22
MR. SCHROETER:
Are you limiting your question
23
to substitute fiber to be used in floor tile?
24
MR. SILBERFELD:
Yes, to be used, for now.
25
THE WITNESS:
Yes, sir.
26
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. To your knowledge, when
27
did the search for a substitute for the asbestos content
28
in the floor tile first begin at Flintkote?
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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1
MB. SCHROETER:
Objection. That assumes a
2
fact not in evidence, that there was a search as such.
3
MR. SILBERFELD:
Well, maybe "search" is the
4
wrong word.
5
Withdraw the question.
6
Q.
At some point in time, did the development of an
7
asbestos-free floor tile become a project at Flintkote, to
8
your knowledge?
9
A.
Yes.
10
Q.
Without regard to when you became involved in the
11
late '70's or early '80's, do you know when that project
12
got its start at Flintkote?
13
A.
I do not know specifically.
14
Q.
Do you have an impression in your mind as to whether
13
your involvement was at the beginning stages of that
16
project, middle or near the end?
17
A.
Near the beginning at some point.
18
Q.
Who asked you to find a substitute for the asbestos?
19
A.
My superior, and the technical group of Floor Tile.
20
Q.
Who was your immediate superior that asked you to
21
do that?
22
A.
M. L. Johnson.
23
Q.
Was there a particular person in the technical group
24
for the floor tile that was involved in the substitute
25
project?
26
A.
Dr. Jack -- Can't remember his last name.
27
Q.
First name Jack?
28
A.
Jack.
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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1
Q.
And he was with the technical group for the flooring
2
products?
3
A.
Flooring Division.
j
4
Q.
Where was his office at that time?
j
II
3
A.
East Rutherford, New Jersey.
j
6
Bartlett, his last name.
|
l
7
Q.
Is he in your phonebook?
8
A.
Pardon?
9
Q.
That's all right.
i
10
Other than Mr. Johnson and Mr. Barlett, do you know !
11
of any other persons who were involved in the search for
|
12
a substitute for the asbestos content in the floor tile?
j
13
A.
To the best of my knowledge, the only other person
j
14
is Jim
Sweeney.
j
15
Q.
What was Mr. Sweeney's capacity?
t
i
16
A.
He was head of the manufacturing lab for the Vernon
|
i
17
floor tile plant.
j
)
18
Q.
And what was Dr. Barlett's position with the company? j
19
A.
I believe his title was technical director for the
|
20
Flooring Division.
21
Q.
Is Dr. Barlett still employed by the company?
22
A.
No, sir.
23
q.
Do you know where he is at the present time?
24
A.
Best of my knowledge, in England.
25
MR. SCHROETER:
See you there.
26
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. Do you know where in
27
England?
28
A.
I do not know.
PATRICIACALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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1
Q.
Do you know by whom he's employed?
2
A.
Last I heard, he was self-employed. Consultant.
{
3
Q.
And is Mr. Sweeney still employed by the company?
jI
4
A.
No. He's retired.
J
5
Q.
Do you know where he lives?
i
j 6
A.
In Southern California.
1I
j 7
Q.
Do you know in what community?
8
A.
I'm sorry, I 've forgotten. A suburb of Los Angeles
j
9
is all I can say.
! i
;
10
Q.
In terms of the role that you played, Mr. Hooker,
j
11
in attempting to find a substitute product for the asbestos j
12
content in the floor tile, what did you do?
jt
J
j 13
A.
Contacted fiberglass companies, producers of fiber- 1 !
14
glass and other products that were being advertised as
15
possible substitute for asbestos fiber.
J
16
Q.
Other than fiberglass, what other products were
j
17
being advertised at that time as a substitute for the
18
asbestos content?
19 A.
Carbon fibers, clays, cellulose fiber, talcs. I
i
20
believe that pretty much covers the general category.
j
I
21
Q.
I take it when you engaged in this search to try
22
to find a substitute for the asbestos content, you already
23
understood at that time what characteristics the asbestos
24
brought to the floor tile which you were now trying to
ii 25 replace. I
26
A.
Yes.
!
27
Q.
What were those characteristics?
28
A.
Fire retardancy, s t r e n g t h , the ability to give us
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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1
wet strength in the manufacturing operation -- wet strength,
2
referring to the mixture of the ingredients as the product --
3
as the floor tile was being manufactured, appropriate
4
color, inertness, nonabsorbed. Those are the key ones.
j
5
Q.
I think-you gave us two separate strength
j
I
6
characteristics.
j
7
A.
Yes, sir.
?
8
Q.
one is the strength of the finished product, I take j
9
it.
|
i
10
A.
Yes sir.
11
Q.
And the other is the strength in the manufacturing
j
12
process.
13
A.
Yes, sir.
j
j
14
Q.
How long did you engage in the search for a
j
15
substitute for the asbestos in the floor tile? How long did
i
16
it last?
i
!
17
A.
I don't recall how many years, but it was a matter
j
l
of -- I would guess, to the best of my knowledge, it was
j
19
at least four years.
j
20
Q.
And if you can estimate it, what percentage of your
;
21
time was spent during that four-year period on this project, I
22
as opposed to yourother duties?
I
i
23
A.
I don't remember.
24
Q.
Approximately. Were you spending half of your time, j
25
a quarter of your time?
26
A.
My personal time?
27
Q.
Your personal time.
28
A.
No more than ten percent.
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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1
Q.
259
I Going right to the end of the story, did you find
2
a suitable substitute for the asbestos for Flintkote's
3
floor tile?
4
A.
No, sir.
j
5
Q.
What were the reasons for that?
!
!
6
A.
We could find nothing to meet the basic criteria
j
7
that I outlined.
i
i
8
Q.
Did any of the possible substitutes which you've
9
listed for us meet all of the characteristics of the
10
asbestos which you were trying to replace?
11
A.
None of them.
12
Q.
Did any of them come close, in terms of the number
13
of characteristics, so that an attempt was made in the
14
manufacturing process to actually produce an asbestos-free
i
15
floor tile?
16
A.
Yes.
17
Q.
Which ones?
18
A.
Glass.
19
Q.
Any others?
20
A.
Talc.
j
21
Q.
Any others?
!
22
A.
Those are the only two I can remember.
23
Q.
So those went from the research stage into the
24
actual production stage of an asbestos-free floor tile?
j
25
At least experimentally.
\
26
A.
It went into experimental production.
!
f
27
Q.
Did any actual production runs of asbestos-free
28
floor tile come out with glass or talc?
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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1
A.
Nothing salable.
2
Q.
What were the reasons for the failure of the
3
glass-containing floor tile as a finished product?
j
4
A.
I'm not technically qualified to answer that.
j
5
Q.
Do you know why the talc product failed?
|
I
6
A.
Again, I can't -- Technically, I can't answer that.
i
i
7
Q.
Well, I'm not asking you for a chemical formula-tyoe j
8
answer, but rather, do you know how come the product didn't j
I
9
perform as well as the asbestos-containing floor tile?
!
j
10
A.
It didn't orovide the characteristics that we needed, )i
11
either to produce it or in the finished product.
j
12
Q.
And with respect to the glass substitute, do you
j
13
know which of the characteristics was missina?
I
14
A.
Strength.
15
Q.
Strength in the finished product, I take it?
16
A.
Both, process and.
j
l
17
Q.
Any others that the glass product lacked?
j
18
A.
Not that I recall.
j
19
Q.
How about the talc product? What did thatlack?
j
20
A.
To the best of my recollection, the same two major
21
points, plus one other. Color was a problem.
22
Q.
Uniformity of color?
23
A.
No. Just color.
24
Q.
At some point in time, did Flintkote discontinue the
25 manufacture of asbestos-containing floor tile completely? !
26
A.
Yes, sir.'
I
27
Q.
When was that, sir?
28
A.
I believe the last plant closed in 19 -- either late
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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1
'81 or sometime in '82. I can't remember the exact date
2
now.
3
Q-
Do you know the reasons for the discontinuation of
4
the asbestos-containing floor tile line?
5
A.
Nonprofitable.
6
Q.
Did the profitability or nonprofitability have to
7
do with the fact that the product contained asbestos?
8
A.
Not to my knowledge.
9
Q.
There was simply no more call for the product?
10
A.
No, sir.
11
Q.
What was the reason that it was no longer profitable,
12
to your knowledge?
13
A.
We couldn't sell it at a price to make a profit.
14
Q.
Oh, the manufacturing costs compared to what you
15
would sell it for in the marketplace was so high it was
16
no longer profitable?
17
A.
Correct.
18
Q.
Do you haveany estimate, Mr. Hooker, ofthe amount
19
of money that was devoted by Flintkote to the substitute
20
product project, if we can call it that?
21
A.
I do not.
22
Q.
Of the people you've listed for us, yourself,
23
Dr. Bartlett and Mr. Sweeney and Mr. Johnson, can you tell
24
me who was in charge, if there was a person in charge, of
25
the substitute product project?
26
A.
There were two departmentsinvolved. One was
27
Mr. Johnson, who was the vice president in charge of the
28
Flooring Division. And the other was corp research, which
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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1
did some direction in this area. But I don't know who
2
the parties were other than the head of that department
3
that would have been involved.
J
j 4
Q.
Who was that?
t
5
A.
His name at the time was Mr. Beard, B-e-a-r-d,
j
i
6
H. E. Beard, corporate director of research and engineering, j
i
7
He personally did not do any of the work.
j
8
Q.
Turning our attention away from floor tile and
!
9
towards the other asbestos-containing product groups that
j
10
Flintkote had, were you involved in the search for a
j
i
11
substitute raw material for asbestos in any of the liquid
j
i
12
products manufactured by Flintkote?
j
13
A.
Yes, sir.
j
14
Q.
Did your involvement in that project coincide with j
15
the search for a substitute for asbestos in the floor tile? ! i
i
16
A.
Partially.
j
17
Q.
Did the liquid substitute productproject come
j
18
first or after?
j
19
A.
Later than the floor tile project. During and
20
later than.
21
Q.
Sure.
i
22
Was an adequate substitute found for the asbestos
i
i
23
in the liquid products?
24
A.
Only partially.
j
25
<j.
Could you explain your answer?
j
!
26
A.
It's a very complex subject. You're dealing in
;
27
terms of not only performance of product, but cost of
*
28
formulation of product, and there is a report by EPA which j
cn
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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1
is very succinct in this whole matter, in that it discusses
I
j 2
this subject of liquid products. It's in 1980, and it points
ij 3 out some of the factors that I 've already discussed, that
4
there is no substitute for all of the -- no one single
jl
5
substitute for all of the characteristics of asbestos fiber, j
6
So you try to find a combination of products to
|
!
7
give you the end result. And in some instances, the cost
j
i 8
of those oroducts is such that you then have a product which !
9
is not salable in the marketolace.
I
10
There mav be other wavs of accomolishina the end
|
I
11
results by changing the specifications. The applicators
J
l
12 may not accept the product in the field. It doesn't
j
1 13 handle the same. There's a multitude of reasons, economic ,
ji 14
and physical.
ji
15 Q.
Was the substitutefor asbestos in the liquid
16 products at least sufficiently successful when the liquid
ij
i
17 products asbestos-free were put out on the market?
i
18 A.
Yes, sir.
19 O.
Are they on the market at this time?
20 A.
Yes, sir.
,
jI
21
Q.
Has the experiencethat the company's had with
22 respect to the asbestos-free liquid products made those
j
23 products a success?
j
24 A.
Some havebeen and somehave not.
23
Q.
For one or more of themany reasons you've cited?
26 A.
Yes, sir.
27 Q.
Was your role in the substitute products project
;
28
for liquids the same as with respect to the floor tile,
!
___________________________!___________________________________ i
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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1
namely, purchasing?
2
A.
To alesser degree.
j
!
3
Q.
Did you participate in the search for a substitute
j
J
4
for asbestos in any other product group that Flintkote had j
5
that contained asbestos other than the liquids and the
j
i
6
floor tile?
j
7
A.
8
Q.
No.
i
j
With respect to products manufactured for Flintkote
9
by others and then sold by Flintkote, did you have any
j
fI
10
role in the develop"ment of substitutes for asbestos in
l
i
11
the products of thosecompanies?
|
12
MR. SCHROETER:
Objection. Vague. Do you mean ;
13
produced by others for Flintkote only for Flintkote's use
j
i
14
and on its requests, or do you mean produced by others
\
i
I
15
generally and, among other purchasers, bought by Flintkote?
16
In other words, are you talking about products made
,
17
specially to Flintkote specs and requests, or are you
18
speaking of products generally made by others and then
j
I
19
bought by Flintkote, among others?
20
MR. SILBERFELD:
Let's start with products
21
made exclusively for Flintkote by others.
22
Q.
Did you have any role in seeking substitutes for
23
asbestos content in those products?
24
MR. SCHROETER:
Objection. That assumes that j
23
there is any product which somebody makes exclusive for
j
26
Flintkote. Find out whether there's such a thing.
27
MR. SILBERFELD:
Come on, Rudolf. That's what ;
I
28
you said. I didn't say that.
j
______________________________ ____________ ____ ____________ _ J
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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C ; rv ^ l y :y c
265
1
MR. SCHROETER:
I didn't say that. I merely
2
suggested that there are various categories of things. Now
3
you've picked on that one. Find out whether there is such
4
a thing.
5
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. Is there such a thing?
6
Namely, products made exclusively by others for Flintkote.
7
A.
I'm not positive of whether there is, whether others
8
are producing a specific product exclusively for Flintkote
9
or not.
10
Q.
Assuming for the sake of the question that that is
11
a fact -- Can you assume that for a second?
12
MR. SCHROETER:
Depending on what you're going
13
to ask him next.
14
THE WITNESS:
It's a hypothetical question.
15
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. It's going to be a
16
hypothetical question. Can you assume that that's true
17
for the sake of --
18
A.
I think I'm capable of that.
19
Q.
I figured you were. Some of us aren't, so --
20
MR. MURRAY:
You won't be by the afternoon.
21
MR. JUDY:
There is no afternoon today.
22
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. Assuming that's true for
23
a second, Mr. Hooker, did you have any role in contacts
24
with those types of manufacturers who made the products
25
for Flintkote in attempting to find substitutes for asbestos
26
content in their products?
27
MR. SCHROETER:
Objection. That's really not
28
intelligible, because you're mixing a hypothetical with a
I
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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1
personal activity kind of question, and you can't do that.
2
So don't answer that question as posed.
3
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. Did you have any contact
4
with any manufacturer with regard to any product that
5
Flintkote bought from that manufacturer that contained
6
asbestos in an effort to find a substitute for the asbestos
7
content?
8
A.
No, sir.
9
Q.
In the course of any positions you've had with
10
Flintkote, did you have any role in attempting to have
11
Flintkote's asbestos-containing products meet military
12
specifications?
13
A.
I was not personally involved in trying to develop
14
such products.
15
Q.
Do you know who was, if it was one person or a
16
department?
17
A.
It would have been the technical people in more than
18
one department.
19
Q.
20
A.
Depending on the product Yes, sir.
group?
21
Q.
You personally had no involvement in that at anytime
22
in your career; is that correct?
23
A.
In developing products to meet military specs, no,
24
sir, I was not personally involved.
25
Q.
Did you have any role during any of your jobs in
26
attempting to have military specifications changed so that
27
Flintkote's products would then qualify?
28
A.
The word "changed," no.
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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1
Q.
Modified?
2
A.
No.
3
Q.
Well, you seem to be hanging on the word. Is there
4
some role that you had with respect to military specs in
5
Flintkote products?
6
MR. SCHROETER:
He's carefully listening to
7
your questions.
8
MR. SILBERPELD:
Yes, I know he is.
< <
9
Q.
So was there some role you had, sir?
10
A.
Yes.
11
Q.
Could you tell us what that was?
I
12
A.
We submittedproducts forapproval and ultimate
13
issue of military specifications.
14
Q.
In other words, you would submit products to the
13
government for consideration to see whether they complied
16 with mil specs?
17
A.
In some instances, we would. Inother instances,
18 we would submit products to get a military specification
19
written to cover our products.
20
Q.
So in the first instance, it was for submission of
21
products to meet an existing mil spec, correct?
22
A.
Yes, sir.
23
Q.
And in the second instance, it was for submission of
24
a product to which there wasn't a mil spec yet in the hopes
25
that there would be one written for the product; is that
26
correct?
27
A.
Not necessarily that there was no military spec for
28
a product, but we tried to get our products approved with
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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1
the specification written to cover them.
2
Q.
So in the second example, there was no military
3
specification that covered Flintkote's existing product
4
at that time?
j
j
5
A.
That is correct.
j
6
Q. 'And the hope was that a mil spec would be issued
j
I
7
that would cover the product?
8
A.
I didn't -- Mil spec is not the word. A military
!
9
specification, be it one from a specific -- for a specific ji
10
base or a specific type of application.
j
11
Q.
And what was your role in regard to those two types
J
I
12
of contacts with the government?
|
13
A.
In marketing and sales.
j
14
Q.
So that would have been early in your career with
j
I
15
Flintkote, in the '40's and '50's; is that correct?
'
16
A.
Yes, sir.
1
j 17
Q.
At that time, in the '40's and '50's, was there a
I
18
particular job function within Flintkote whose responsibility
19
it was to have contact with the general services
20
administration?
j
21
A.
Not that I was aware of. Each department took care
;
ii
22
of its own business.
J
23
Q.
Do you know, Mr. Hooker, whether Flintkote's
24
asbestos-containing floor tilemet military specifications? j
25
MR. SCHROETER:
When?
!
]
26
MR. SILBERFELD:'
During the years he was in
;
27
marketing and sales in the '40's and '50's.
28
THE WITNESS:
I don't know.
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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2
Q.
Do you know whether it net military specifications
2
in the '60's?
3
A.
Yes.
4
Q.
Yes, youknow, andyes, it did?
5
A.
By virtue of investigative work I have done in
6
connection with asbestos cases, I have found that we were
7
approved as a military -- under military specifications.
8
Q.
In your capacity as the manager of purchasing for
9
building materials from 1973, really, to the present, did
10
you have any role in work practice changes in the operating
11
plants that Flintkote had around the United States?
12
A.
No, sir.
13
Q.
That was totally outside of your area of responsi
14
bility, I take it?
15
A.
I had nothing to dowith it.
16
Q.
During the years that you were in marketing and
17
sales from the '40's through the '50's, really, did
18
Flintkote have an advertising agency it used?
19
A.
Yes. I don't remember the name of it, though.
20
Q.
Do you know what city they were located in?
21
A.
In general, we had one on the West Coast and one
22
on the East Coast. The West Coast was in Los Angeles.
23
I don't know what city the East Coast agency was in.
24
q.
I'd like to talk about some more documents,
23
Mr. Hooker, with you.
26
(WHEREUPON, A PHOTOCOPY OF A TWO-PAGE
DOCUMENT ENTITLED "WARNING LABELS ON
27
PRODUCTS MANUFACTURED OR SOLD BY
FLINTKOTE, WAS MARKED AS PLAINTIFFS'
28
EXHIBIT NO. 19 FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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1
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. I've marked as Exhibit 19;
2
Mr. Hooker, a document which has been previously identified,
3
not in this deposition, but it's called Exhibit C, and it's
4
Exhibit C to certain answers to interrogatories provided
l
5
to The Flintkote Company in cases entitled Waller vs.
j
I
6
Johns-Manville, Davis vs. Armstrong, Taylor vs. A r m s t r o n g , j
7
in the United States District Court for the S o u t h e r n D i s t r i c t
8
of Florida. They are verified March 2nd, 1982, by you, a n d j
9
they are the questions and answers.
10
MR. SCHROETER:
You did all right.
!
11
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. All we want to talk about j
f
12
is the exhibit, and I think they've also been identified
j
13
in other litigation.
j
14
With respect to what is now Plaintiffs' Exhibit
j
15
No. 19, do you have that in front of you, sir?
'
j
16
A.
Yes, sir.
j
I
17
Q.
Can you just describe-for the record in substance
18
what the document is?
j
19
A.
It identifies warning labels used in these products
|
20
produced by Flintkote.
21
Q.
To your knowledge, are the warnings described in
22
Exhibit 19 all of the warnings issued for those products
l
23
by Flintkote at anytime?
24
A.
No, sir.
|
25
Q.
What other warnings for those product groups were
26
issued by Flintkote that are not contained there?
27
A.
These product groups? I'msorry, Imisunderstood
j
l
28
th e q u e s tio n .
I
PATRICIA CALLAHAN &ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHANO REPORTERS
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1
Q.
I said these product groups.
2
A.
I'm sorry, I misunderstood the question.
3
MR. JUDY:
4
total again?
Could we have the question in
3
THE WITNESS:
6
yes.
To the best of my knowledge,
7
MR. SILBERFELD:
Do you want to hear it?
8
MR. JUDY:
No.
9
MR. SILBERFELD:
It was a good question.
10
MR. JUDY:
Was it a good question?
11
MR. SILBERFELD:
Yes. It was a pretty good
12
question. It wasn't a great question.
13
Q.
The first product grouD you've indicated there is
j
!
14
Skykote. Could you just indicate what product group that is? j
15
A.
Liquid product.
i
16
Q.
And then the third product is C 13 C4. What product j
i
17
group is that?
|
!
18
A.
Liquid product.
j
19
(WHEREUPON, A PHOTOCOPY OF A
j
ONE-PAGE DOCUMENT ENTITLED
!
20
"NOW YOU CAN INSTALL A BEAUTIFUL
NEW FLOOR IN NO TIME AT ALL
j
21
WITH FLINTKOTE PEEL-STICK
REINFORCED VINYL FLOOR TILE"
22
WAS MARKED AS PLAITNIFFS'
EXHIBIT NO. 20 FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
23
24
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. Next, I've marked as
25
Exhibit 20 a document which is, again, part of the answers
26
to interrogatories in the Florida cases that I described a
27
second ago, and this was Exhibit D to those answers. But
28
w e 've now remarked it as Exhibit 20 here. Would you take a
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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6 Q 1y 3 3 3 d 00003302
272
1
look at that?
2
A.
(Witness examining document.)
3
4
Q.
3
A.
Yes, sir. Do you recognize the document? Yes, sir.
6
Q.
What is it?
7
A.
It's an insert placed inside of the box of floor
8
tile when we shipped it.
9
Q.
Do you know when it was that this insert was first
10
used with respect to Flintkote's floor tile?
11
A.
Sometime in the '70's. I don't -- I can't recall
12
specifically.
13
Q.
The answers to interrogatories indicate that
14
Exhibit D, which is the document that is now Plaintiffs' 20,
15
was issued in 1977. Does that refresh your memory, sir, in
16
any way? Does that refresh your memory as to the date?
17 A.
Whatever is in there is what I discovered in answering
18
the interrogatories.
19
Q.
To your knowledge, was Exhibit 20, the insert sheet,
20 the first time that an insert sheet of any type had been
21 placed inside Flintkote floor tile boxes by the company?
22 A.
No, it was not.
23
Q.
Had instruction sheets like Exhibit No. 20 been used
24 by Flintkote for its floor tile products prior to 1977?
23 A.
Yes, sir.
26
Q.
Had that been true for all the time floor tile was
27 manufactured?
28
A.
I don't know.
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHANO REPORTERS
FFvL AD M 0000190 33 33 30 53
273
1
Q.
Had that been true for all of the time that Flintkote's
2
floor tile was of the peel-and-stick variety?
3
A.
I'm not certain about that, either.
4
Q.
I'd like to direct your attention to the warning
5
labels in the second column at the bottom. Did you see
j
6
that, sir?
7
A.
Yes, sir.
!
I
8
Q.
Do you know how the language of that warning was
;
9
developed?
j
10
A.
No, sir.
!
i
11
Q.
Did you have any role in the development of that
j
j
12
language?
j
13 A.
14
Q.
No, sir. Do you know whether that warning, as contained in
15
Exhibit No. 20,was the first such warning given bythe
i
i
16
company with respect to itsasbestos-containingfloortile |
i
17
product?
i
18
A.
I'm not certain whether it is or is not the first
19 warning.
20
Q.
In reviewing thecorporate records for purposes of
j
21
answering interrogatories, did you find any insert sheets
22
like Exhibit No. 20 that were of an earlier period than
23
Exhibit No. 20 --
24
A.
No, sir.
i
23
Q.
You didn't let me finish.
i
26
-- which contained a warning as contained in Exhibit
27
No. 20?
28
A.
No, sir.
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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FLn 0000330 4
274
1
Q
So this would be the earliest document you found
2
that contained a warning?
3
A.
Yes, sir.
4
Q.
Other than the insert sheet that we've been talking
5
about, which is Exhibit No. 20, are you aware of any other
6
warning given with respect to asbestos-containing floor
7
tile manufactured by Flintkote that was given after 1977?
8
A.
I don't recall of any.
9
(WHEREUPON, A PHOTOCOPY OF A
FIVE-PAGE LETTER ADDRESSED TO
10
MR. ALBERT H. FAY, VICE PRESIDENT
MARKETING, FROM J. A. MAIN,
11
FLINTKOTE MINES, LIMITED, A
PHOTOCOPY OF AN EIGHT-PAGE DOCUMENT
12
ENTITLED "TARGET HEALTH HAZARDS,
ASBESTOS: AIRBORNE DANGER," AND
13
A PHOTOCOPY OF A ONE-PAGE DOCUMENT
ENTITLED "ASBESTOS AND HEALTH,
14
INFORMATION FILE," WERE MARKED AS
PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 21 FOR
15
IDENTIFICATION.)
16
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. As 21, I've marked a copy
17 of a letter dated May 2nd, 1968, and the addressee of
18 Albert H. Fay, F-a-y. It's from J. A. Main, M-a-i-n, and
19
there are certain attachments to it.
20
Let me show you this exhibit and ask you if you
21
recognize it.
22 A.
(Witness examining document.)
23
Yes, sir.
24
Q.
With respect to the last page of the letter, it is
23
a xeroxed copy of a signature. Do you recognize that as
26
being Mr. Main's signature?
27
A.
28
Q.
It's not legible. At this period of time, in May of 1968, was Mr. Main
cn cn
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTMANO REPORTERS
F'.'AM
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n ftft - wbuvoou
275
1
with Flintkote Mines?
2
A.
Yes, sir.
3
Q.
4
A.
In what capacity, sir? Sales manager.
5
Q.
Do you recall ever seeing this letter before?
6
A.
I'm not certain whether I have seen that letter or
7
one like it.
8
Q.
You mean a different copy of it?
9
A.
No, I meant I'm not positive I've seen that specific
i
10
letter.
11
Q.
Did you know who Mr. Fay was, other than by the
1
12
title given?
j
13
A.
I knew Mr. Fay.
14
Q.
Did you ever have any contact with Mr. Fay with
15
regard to environmental health hazardissues?
16 A.
No, sir.
|
17
Q.
At the time that you took over your capacity with
18 respect to the Flintkote Mines in the early '70's, did you
19 go through the files that then existed with regard to health
20
issues or safety issues?
21 A.
No, sir.
22 Q.
Do you recall everreviewing thisletter or any of
i
j
23
the attachments to it at or about the period we've been
24 talking about, in 1971?
i
25 A.
No, sir.
|
26 / / / / / / /
j
27 / / / / / / /
28 / / / / / / /
PATRICIA CALLAHAN &ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
F AM
Cr i L ir/'
0193335
008u3306
276
1
(WHEREUPON, A PHOTOCOPY OF A
ONE-PAGE MEMORANDUM ON THE
2
LETTERHEAD OF THE FLINTKOTE
COMPANY, DATED NOVEMBER 15, 1968,
3
TO MR. H. P. HEUBNER FROM M. L.
JOHNSON, WAS MARKED AS PLAINTIFFS'
4
EXHIBIT NO. 22 FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
5
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. No. 22 is a Flintkote
6
interoffice correspondence document dated November 15,. 1968,
7
to Mr. Heubner from Mr. Johnson. The subject is "Safety
8
precautions - Use of Asbestos Fibers." I'll put that in
9
front of you, sir.
10
A.
(Witness examining document.)
11
Yes, sir.
12
Q.
Have you seen that document before today, sir?
13
A.
I do not recall seeing it before.
14
Q.
Mr. Heubner's position as of 1968 was what, sir?
13
A.
To the best of my recollection, he was head of our
16
insurance department.
17
Q.
And the received stamp, which bears a date of
18
November 18, '68, and says, "Office of the Secretary,"
19
do you recognize the stamp as being a stamp used by
20
Flintkote?
21
A.
The only thing I recognize is Mr. Curry was the
22
secretary of The Flintkote Company at that time.
23
Q.
24
A.
25
Q.
26
A.
And his name is underlined in the Yes, sir. And he was corporate secretary? Yes, sir.
27
///////
28
///////
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SMORTHANO REPORTERS
FvA!
:[_q
019 3
r.n >"
IJV O U o
:o co
277
1
(WHEREUPON, A PHOTOCOPY OF A
ONE-PAGE LETTER DATED FEBRUARY 3,
2
1969, TO AMERICAN MUTUAL LIABILITY
INSURANCE COMPANY, FROM WALTER N.
3
KNORR, SAFETY MANAGER; A PHOTOCOPY
OF A ONE-PAGE HANDWRITTEN DOCUMENT
4
DATED 1/27/69 TO WALT; A PHOTOCOPY
OF A ONE-PAGE HANDWRITTEN LETTER
5
DATED JAN. 27, 1969, TO MR. RALPH
McCREARY; A PHOTOCOPY OF A ONE-PAGE
6
LETTER DATED JANUARY 27, 1969,
ADDRESSED TO MR. RALPH McCREARY;
7
AND A PHOTOCOPY OF A ONE-PAGE
HANDWRITTEN DOCUMENT WITH THE WORDS
8
"SUGGESTED 2ND PARAGRAPH" AT THE
TOP OF THE PAGE, WERE MARKED AS
9
PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 23 FOR
IDENTIFICATION.)
10
11
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. No. 23 is a copy of a
12
letter dated February 3rd, 1969, from Walter Knorr,
13
K-n-o-r-r, to the American Mutual Liability Insurance
14
Company, to the attention of Mr. Robedee, R-o-b-e-d-e-e.
15
And attached to it are certain handwritten letters and
16
the letter in draft form. Take a look at that for a moment.
17
A.
(Witness examining document.)
18
Yes, sir.
19
Q.
With respect to the product described here as
20
"Weatherkote" -- correct?
21
A.
Yes, sir.
22
Q.
What was Weatherkote? What type of product?
23
A.
Best of my knowledge, it was a liquid asphalt or
24
industrial product.
25
Q.
For what application?
26
A.
I'd have to refer to file information as to just
27
exactly what it was used for.
28
///////
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SMORTHANO REPORTERS
/rwrt*19*w9o.*3o
y 000330
(T) C o
278
1
(WHEREUPON, A PHOTOCOPY OF A
ONE-PAGE LETTER DATED FEBRUARY 17,
2
1969, ADDRESSED TO MR. RALPH
McCREARY, FROM WALTER N. KNORR,
3
SAFETY MANAGER, WAS MARKED AS
PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 24 FOR
4
IDENTIFICATION.)
5
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. No. 24 is a copy of a letter
6
dated February 17, 1969, from Mr. Knorr to Mr. McCreary at j
7
C-E Refractories. I'll show you that document.
8
A.
(Witness examining document.)
9
Yes, sir.
10
Q.
Do you recall everseeing theletterbefore?
11
A.
No.
12
Q.
Does this refresh your memory in any way that there } i
13
was concern about the health effect with regard to the
\
14
Weatherkote product in or about 1969?
15
MR. SCHROETER:
Concern on whose part? The
j
16 writer of the letter?
17
MR. SILBERFELD:
18
THE WITNESS:
! I
On anybody's part.
|
i
Only as the letter dictates,
19
so states. That's the only concern that I know about,
20
stated in the letter.
j
21
(WHEREUPON, APHOTOCOPY OF A
!
ONE-PAGE MEMO ON THE LETTERHEAD
22
OF THE FLINTKOTE COMPANY, DATED
JUNE 29, 1971, TO JOHN PARKER
23
FROM WALTER N. KNORR, WAS MARKED
AS PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 25 FOR
24
IDENTIFICATION.)
25
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. 25 is a copy of an
j
i
26
interoffice correspondence dated June 29, 1971, from
!
27
Walter N. Knorr to John Parker. The subject is "Asbestos
j
i
28
Dust Survey." Take a look at that for a moment.
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIE!) Sh ORTHANO REPORTERS
c y AM 6 0 1 9 3 3 3 5 FLD 000 03 30 9
279
I
A.
(Witness examining document.)
2
Yes, sir.
3
Q.
Have you ever seen that memo before, sir?
4
A.
Only in review of documents in counsel's office.
5
Q.
Do you know whether the asbestos dust survey done
6
at East Rutherford revealed any excessive dust conditions,
7
based on whatever standards were used in the report?
8
A.
I have no knowledge of the survey.
9
(WHEREUPON, A PHOTOCOPY OF A
ONE-PAGE MEMO ON THE LETTERHEAD
10
OF THE FLINTKOTE COMPANY, DATED
JUNE 7, 1972, TO MR. M. L. JOHNSON,
11
MR. J. C. HARKNESS, MR. H. TAYLOR
AND MR. W. HARVEY, FROM WALTER N.
12
KNORR; A PHOTOCOPY OF A ONE-PAGE
DOCUMENT ENTITLED "UNION-INDUSTRY
13
COMPROMISE, NEW OSHA STANDARD ON
ASBESTOS IS SET"; AND A PHOTOCOPY
14
OF AN EIGHT-PAGE DOCUMENT ENTITLED
"12 FIBERS, 5 FIBERS, 2 FIBERS,"
15
WERE MARKED AS PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT
NO. 26 FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
16
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. 26 is an interoffice
17 correspondence of The Flintkote Company dated June 7th,
18 1972, from Mr. Knorr to Mr. Johnson, Harkness, Taylor
19 and Harvey. The subject is "Asbestos Standard." And it
20
shows Mr. Hooker as cc, and there are attachments to it,
21
as well. Would you take a look at that, sir?
22
A.
(Witness examining document.)
23 Yes.
24 Q.
In your capacity as manager of purchasing, did you
25 have any role in the manufacturing facilities' attempt to
26 comply with the new OSHA standard on asbestos?
27
A. 28
Yes, sir.
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
c e r t if ie d s h o r t h a n d r e p o r t e r s
CO CO
280
1
Q.
What was your role?
2
A.
Submitting information that was available for the
3
Asbestos Information Association to appropriate management
4
level people.
5
Q.
Did you have any part in attempting to see to it
j
6
that the actual manufacturing facilities complied with the |
j
7
OSHA standards?
i
8
A.
No, sir.
j
9
Q.
Was your role limited to interfacing between AIA
J
10
and management level of Flintkote?
11
A.
I was -- Yes, correct.
12
(WHEREUPON, A PHOTOCOPY OF A
!
ONE-PAGE MEMO ON THE LETTERHEAD
!
13
OF THE FLINTKOTE COMPANY, DATED
i
JUNE 14, 1972, TO MR. JOHN SZAL
I
14
FROM A. R. HOOKER, JR., AND A
i
PHOTOCOPY OF A THREE-PAGE LETTER
!
15
ON THE LETTERHEAD OF ASBESTOS
j
INFORMATION ASSOCIATION/NORTH
i
16
AMERICA, DATED JUNE 12, 1972,
|
TO AIA/NA MEMBER COMPANIES AND
j
17
VARIOUS OTHERS, FROM M. M. SWETONIC,
EXECUTIVE SECRETARY, WERE MARKED
18
AS PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 27 FOR
IDENTIFICATION.)
19
20
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. Next is 27, interoffice
21
correspondence from Mr. Hooker to Mr. Szal, S-z-a-1,
22
dated June 14, 1972. It's a memo, and attached to it are
i
23
three pages of minutes from the AIA. Take a look at that
j
l
24
for a second, sir.
j
25 A. (Witness examiningdocument.) ji
26
Yes, sir.
!
i
27
Q.
Do you recognize the documents?
28
A.
Yes.
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFI60 SHORTHAND REPORTERS
M 0i93335
1.
gQ0033U
281
1
Q.
Have you seen it before today?
2
A.
Yes, sir. I signed the governing letter.
3
Q.
Do you recall getting from Corporate Engineer
4
information or studies about what was happening in the
5
manufacturing facilities of Flintkote with respect to
6
airborne asbestos fibers?
7
A.
No, sir.
8
Q.
That didn't happen? You didn't get the information?
9
A.
Not to my -- I don't recall of ever receiving any
10
information.
11
Q.
Did you participate, either directly as an employee
12
of Flintkote or through AIA, in any effort to have the
13
OSHA regulations on airborne asbestos fibers changed?
14
A.
AIA spoke fortheoverall producer ofasbestos
15
products.
16
Q.
Yes, sir.
17
A.
And as a member of AIA, I participated in supplying
18
information to AIA about our own operations. I participated,
19
in some instances, in developing work practice procedures
20
for certain products. That basically covers it.
21
Q.
22
A.
Do you see the notes in the margin delineations here? Uh-huh.
23
Q.
Are those all yours, sir?
24
A.
Yes.
25
Q.
Thank you.
26
Did you ever develop work practices with respect to
27
floor tile manufacturing?
28
A.
I was not involved in that.
ro Cfl
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHANO REPORTERS
282
1
Q.
Did you play any part in or about 1972 with having
2
screening examinations done of employees at any manufacturing
3
plant of the company?
4
A.
No, sir.
3
Q.
Do you know that that was done at any manufacturing
j
i
6
facility in or about 1972?
j
i
7
A.
The Flintkote Company met whatever the requirements
j
8
were of OSHA,
9
Q.
But you don't have personal knowledge of the fact
10
that screening examinations were or weren't done; is that
j
i
11
correct?
12
A.
Only that the company complied with OSHA.
j
l
13
Q.
I understand.
j
14
MR. GRELL:
I don't think he's answered
13
the question.
j
16
(WHEREUPON, A PHOTOCOPY OF A
ONE-PAGE MEMO ON THE LETTERHEAD
j
17
OF THE FLINTKOTE COMPANY, DATED
j
SEPTEMBER 27, 1972, FROM S. WEISS,
18
WAS MARKED AS PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT
NO. 28 FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
j
19
ji
20
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. 28 is an interoffice
21
correspondence of The Flintkote Company, dated September
22
27, 1972. It's from Mr. Weiss, and we don't know who it's
23
to. Take a look at that for a second.
24
A.
(Witness examining document.)
25
Yes, sir.
|
26
Q.
It refers, does it not, to certain labels or signs !
|
27
available from you, correct?
28
A.
No, sir. Available through me.
_______________ ___ _____________________________
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
rLD
CERTIFIED SHORTMANO REPORTERS
d0i?333=: 00003313
283
1
Q.
Well, it says, "if you wish to obtain the warning
2
signs, you can request them directly from Mr. A. R. Hooker,
3
Jr."
4
A.
i didn't have them in my possession.
5
Q.
It's kind of like answering interrogatories.
j
6
What signs werethese?
j
7
A.
Prepared by AIA.
8
Q.
Do you have copies of any of those signs, or have
j
9
they been produced?
|
10
A.
I don't know whether X have copies of them or not in !
jJ
11
my files.
12
Q.
I What did they depict or what was the general substance i
13
of those documents?
j
14
A.
They were signs designed to place in the manufacturing !
15
location for warning theworker of a possible hazard.
J
16
(WHEREUPON, A PHOTOCOPY OF A
ONE-PAGE MEMO ON THE LETTERHEAD
17
OF THE FLINTKOTE COMPANY, DATED
JANUARY 30, 1973, TO MR. E. A.
18
OPILA AND VARIOUS OTHERS, FROM
M. L. JOHNSON; A PHOTOCOPY OF A
19
TWO-PAGE LETTER ON THE LETTERHEAD
OF ASBESTOS INFORMATION ASSOCIATION/
20
NORTH AMERICA, DATED JANUARY 17,
1973, ADDRESSED TO "GENTLEMEN,"
21
FROM MATTHEW M. SWETONIC, EXECUTIVE
SECRETARY; AND A PHOTOCOPY OF A
22
SEVEN-PAGE DOCUMENT ENTITLED
"ASBESTOS, THE SAVER OF LIVES, HAS
23
A DEADLY SIDE," WERE MARKED AS
PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 29 FOR
24
IDENTIFICATION.)
25
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. 29 is an interoffice
26
correspondence dated January 30, 1973, from Mr. Johnson to
27
a number of people. The subject is "Asbestos." Let me
28
show you that, sir.
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
C ERTIFIED Sh o r t h a n d REPORTERS
284
1
A.
(Witness examining document.)
2
Okay.
3
Q.
And let me show you, with Counsel's kind permission,
4
30, as well.
5
MR. SCHROETER:
Does it relate?
6
MR. SILBERFELD:
Yes. It's another interoffice
7
memo, March 13, '73, from Mr. Johnson to the same people.
8
(WHEREUPON, A PHOTOCOPY OF A
MEMO ON THE LETTERHEAD OF THE
9
FLINTKOTE COMPANY, DATED MARCH 13,
1973, TO MR. E. A. OPILA AND
10
VARIOUS OTHERS, FROM M. L. JOHNSON;
A PHOTOCOPY OF A TWO-PAGE MEMO ON
11
THE LETTERHEAD OF ASBESTOS
INFORMATION ASSOCIATION/NORTH
12
AMERICA, DATED FEBRUARY 27, 1973,
FROM MATTHEW M. SWETONIC, EXECUTIVE
13
SECRETARY; AND A PHOTOCOPY OF A
ONE-PAGE DOCUMENT ENTITLED "THE
14
HAZARDS OF SAFETY," WERE MARKED AS
PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 30 FOR
15
IDENTIFICATION.)
16
THE WITNESS:
(Examining document.)
17
Yes, sir.
18
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. My question with respect
19
to those two documents is whether you participated in any
20
committee or subcommittee of AIA whose purpose was to
21
effect favorable publicity for the asbestos industry in
22
response to certain unfavorable publicity that had been
23
issued.
24
A.
No, sir.
25
(WHEREUPON, A PHOTOCOPY OF A
ONE-PAGE MEMO DATED NOVEMBER 5,
26
1973, TO MR. C. H. BARANOWSKI
AND MR. T. H. PARKE, JR., WAS
27
MARKED AS PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT
NO. 31 FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
28
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
F y A M 0 1 ? 3 rr i p-.
I
6 0uuv o
285
1
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. 31 is an interoffice
j
2
memo dated November 5, '73, from Mr. Hooker to Mr. Baranowski.:
i
3
Let me show you that, sir.
i
4
A.
(Witness examining document.)
|
i
5
Yes, sir.
j
6
(WHEREUPON, A PHOTOCOPY OF A
i
ONE-PAGE LETTER DATED JANUARY 22,
!
7
1974, ADDRESSED TO MR. W. H.
NEWTON, PACKAGING MANAGER, FROM
8
C. H. BARANOWSKI, ASSISTANT
MERCHANDISE MANAGER, GYPSUM
9
PRODUCTS, WAS MARKED AS PLAINTIFFS'
EXHIBIT NO. 32 FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
|
10
i
11
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. And 32 is a copy of a
'
12
letter from Mr. Baranowski to Mr. Newton, Gold Bond Building
13
Products, Division of National Gypsum Company, dated
j
14 January 22, 1974, which is on the same subject. I
15
A.
(Witness examining document.)
16
Q.
Do you recall whether you had any role in the
|
j
17
development of warning information for joint compounds
j
18
manufactured for Flintkote by any other company?
j
19
20
Q.
No, you don't recall?
21
A.
Not to my knowledge did I have any part in it.
22
Q.
Are you aware- that a division of National Gypsum
23
manufactured a joint compound for Flintkote at or about
24
this time?
23
A.
I have been told by our products manager that they
26
did.
27
///////
28
///////
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
FvAM
FLD
019
0000
co :
286
1
(WHEREUPON, A PHOTOCOPY OF A
TWO-PAGE MEMO ON THE LETTERHEAD
2
OF THE FLINTKOTE COMPANY, DATED
FEBRUARY 19, 1974, TO MR. M. L.
3
JOHNSON, FROM W. H. MORTONSON,
WAS MARKED AS PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT
4
NO. 33 FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
5
MR. SILBERFELD:
33 is a copy of an interoffice
6
correspondence dated February 19, 1974, from Mr. Mortonson
7
to Mr. Johnson. It's two pages.
8
A.
(Witness examining document.)
9
Yes.
10
Q.
With respect to Exhibit 33, who within Flintkote was
11
charged with the responsibility of writing work practice
j
12
information specifically with regard to OSHA compliance?
I
13
A.
It was done on a product per product basis.
;
14
Q.
There's a man mentioned here by the name of Bill
j
15
Fassuliotis, F-a-s-s-u-l-i-o-t-i-s. Do you know who he was? j
16
A.
I've heard the name, but I can't place what his
I
i
17
responsibility is or who he is.
18
(WHEREUPON, A PHOTOCOPY OF A
!
ONE-PAGE MEMO ON THE LETTERHEAD
j
19
OF THE FLINTKOTE COMPANY, DATED
!
JUNE 5, 1974, FROM E. A. OPILA:
j
20
A PHOTOCOPY OF A SEVEN-PAGE DOCUMENT
;
ENTITLED "ASBESTOS AND YOUR HEALTH";
21
A PHOTOCOPY OF A SEVEN-PAGE DOCUMENT
ENTITLED "ASBESTOS AND YOUR HEALTH";
22
AND A PHOTOCOPY OF A ONE-PAGE
DOCUMENT ENTITLED "POTENTIAL HEALTH
23
HAZARD INSTRUCTIONS," WERE MARKED
AS PLAITNIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 35 FOR
24
IDENTIFICATION.)
25
MR. SILBERFELD;
Q. Next, I've marked as
I
26
34 a letter on the letterhead of The Flintkote Company from j
27
Mr. Opila, dated June 5, 1974. And attached to it is a
28
booklet and an acceptance form. I 'll show you that.
_________________________________ .________ ;_____
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
FvAM FLD
0 y3 35 00033 !7
287
1
A.
(Witness examining document.)
2
Yes, sir.
3
Q*
Did you have any part in the writing of the booklet?
4
A.
No, sir.
5
Q.
Do you know if the booklet is taken verbatim from
|
I
6
any local, state or federal government agency?
j
!
7
A.
I don't know.
8
Q.
Do you know whether the booklet was distributed to
9
employees at any other plant other than Chicago Heights?
!
i
10
A.
I don't know.
11
Q.
Do you know whether it was distributed at Chicago
12
Heights?
13
A.
I do not know for a fact.
I
14
(WHEREUPON, A PHOTOCOPY OF A
ONE-PAGE MEMO ON THE LETTERHEAD
15
OF THE FLINTKOTE COMPANY, DATED
JULY 8, 1974, TO MR. M. C.
i
16
CARPENTER, FROM A. R. HOOKER, JR.,
AND A PHOTOCOPY OF A ONE-PAGE
17
DOCUMENT ON THE LETTERHEAD OF
ASBESTOS INFORMATION ASSOCIATION,
I
18
ENTITLED "BOARD OF DIRECTORS
MEETING, JUNE 20, 1974, WERE
19
MARKED AS PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT
!
NO. 35 FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
i
20
l I
21
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. 35 is a memo dated
'
j
22
July 8, 1974, from Mr. Hooker to Mr. Carpenter.
23
A.
(Witness examining document.)
24
Yes, sir.
J
25
Q.
With regard to No. 35, did the continuing membership ;
26
in AIA get approved?
27
A.
Yes.
28
///////
____________________________________________________ PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTMANO REPORTERS
! I j | |
*1u?10*033
288
1
(WHEREUPON, A PHOTOCOPY OF A
ONE-PAGE MEMO DATED SEPTEMBER 23,
2
1974, FROM W. H. MORTONSON, AND
A PHOTOCOPY OF A THREE-PAGE
3
MEMO ON THE LETTERHEAD OF ASBESTOS
INFORMATION ASSOCIATION, DATED
4
SEPTEMBER 17, 1974, FROM E. M.
FENNER, WERE MARKED AS PLAINTIFFS'
5
EXHIBIT NO. 36 FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
j
6
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. 36 is an interoffice
j
'I
7
correspondence dated September 23, 1974, from Mr. Mortonson !
8
to Mr. Johnson, and there are some minutes attached thereto.
9
It shows Mr. Hooker as a receiver of a copy.
10
Do you recall receiving that document, sir?
11
A.
Not specifically.
J
!
12
(Witness examining document.)
j
13
Your question? Is that it?
!
i
14
Q.
Yes.
j
l
15
A.
I don't recall specifically.
16
(WHEREUPON, A PHOTOCOPY OF A
j
ONE-PAGE MEMO ON THE LETTERHEAD
|
17
OF THE FLINTKOTE COMPANY, DATED
MAY 4, 1976, TO MR. J. C. HARKNESS,
j
18
MR. W. HARVEY AND MR. R. RABATSKY,
!
FROM A. R. HOOKER, JR., WITHATTACH-
1
19
MENTS, THE FIRST PAGE BEING ENTITLED
"COMMENTS OF JOHNS-MANVILLE CORPORATION
20
WITH RESPECT TO NOTICE OF PROPOSED
j
RULEMAKING OCCUPATIONAL EXPOSURE
!
21
TO ASBESTOS," CONSISTING OF SEVEN
j
PAGES, WERE MARKED AS PLAINTIFFS'
22
EXHIBIT NO. 37 FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
i
23
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. 37 is a memorandum from
|
24
Mr. Hooker to Messrs. Harkness, Harvey and Rabatsky, dated
25
May 4, 1976. Let me show you that. It has attachments, as
26
well.
I
27
A.
(Witness examining document.)
;
28
Yes, sir.
FvfiH
|
a 0 i 93
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
FU
CERTIFIED SHORTHANO REPORTERS
289
1
Q.
Do you recall whether the report that is mentioned
2
there was ever distributed to any of the people to whom the
3
memo was addressed?
4
A.
I have no recollection.
i
5
Q . Do you know whether the report in its entirety,
6
which is estimated to be about 150 pages, was ever produced 1
i
7
in connection with any of this litigation?
8
A.
Not to my knowledge.
!
9
Q.
Do you know if it's still in existence?
10
A.
I do not.
i
11
(WHEREUPON, A PHOTOCOPY OF A
ONE-PAGE MEMO DATED AUGUST 6,
12
1976, TO MR. W. H. MORTONSON,
MR. E. A. OPILA, MR. W. HARVEY
13
AND MR. R. RABATSKY, FROM A. R.
HOOKER, JR., WAS MARKED AS
14
PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 38 FOR
IDENTIFICATION.)
13
16
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. 38, a copy of a memo from
17
Mr. Hooker to Messrs. Mortonson, Opila, Harvey and Rabatsky,
18
dated August 6th, 1976. I'll show you that, sir.
19
A.
20
(Witness examining document.) Yes, sir.
21
Q.
With regard to that memo, it mentions certain
22
leaflets and posters. Do you recall what the substance
23
of the posters was?
24
A.
Variety of substances. They were primarily warnings
23
or reminders for plant workers of potential hazards of
26
asbestos fiber.
27
Q.
Do you know whether copies of any of the posters,
28
leaflets or other documents still exist at Flintkote?
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
c e r t if ie d s h o r t h a n o reporters
f vam FLD
0193335
00003320
291
1
just read in the title of that article. "Labels and
2
Advertisements That Lead to Liability," by J. Arthur
3
Miller, Chicago, Illinois.
j 4 MR. SILBERFELD: Q. Were you involved at I I
5
anytime in the middle to late '70's, Mr. Hooker, in
6
attempting to convince Celotex to place a warning label
7
on asbestos felt sheeting that the company manufactured for j
8
Flintkote?
9
A.
Not that I ever recall.
10
(WHEREUPON, A PHOTOCOPY OF A
j
j ONE-PAGE MEMO DATED NOVEMBER 28,
I
11
1977, FROM W. T. HOYT, WAS
MARKED AS PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT
!
12
NO. 40 FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
i
j
13
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. 40 is a copy of a memorandumj
14
of November 28th, 1977, addressed to Mr. R. Brown,
j
15
Merchandise Mart. See if you recognize that.
i
16
A.
(Witness examining document.)
!
17
18
Q.
With respect to that document, does that refresh
19
your memory of when a warning was first placed on the floor !
20
tile product about potential hazards from sanding of the
|
i
21
floor tile product?
I
i
22
A.
As I said before, I don't know for sure. But I
j
23
just can't -- As far as refreshing my memory isconcerned, j
24
I can only go by what the document says.
i
I
25
(WHEREUPON, A PHOTOCOPY OF A
j
ONE-PAGE MEMO DATED JUNE 30,
j
26
1978, TO MR. J. C. HARKNESS AND
MR. J. C. MURPHY, FROM A. R.
!
27
HOOKER, JR., WAS MARKED AS PLAINTIFFS'
EXHIBIT NO. 41 FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
28
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
PyAM 0 1 9 3 3 3 5
F L D u u 0 ijo o 2 2
292
1
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. 41 is a copy of a memo
2
from Mr. Hooker to Messrs. Harkness and Murphy, dated June 30,
3
1978. I 'll show you that, sir.
4
A.
(Witness examining document.)
5
Yes, sir.
6
Q.
With respect to No. 41, does the information
7
contained therein accurately reflect the state of your
8
knowledge about asbestos health hazards as of the time the !i
9
document was written in June of 1978?
10
A.
My response would be that I accept what is being
11
said there, as it describes the issue at the time, as
12
reasonably accurate.
13
(WHEREUPON, A PHOTOCOPY OF A
,
ONE-PAGE MEMO ON THE LETTERHEAD
14
OF THE FLINTKOTE COMPANY, DATED
!
OCTOBER 23, 1979, TO MESSRS. J. C.
15
HARKNESS AND J. C. MURPHY, FROM
A. R. HOOKER, JR.,; A PHOTOCOPY OF
16
A DOCUMENT ENTITLED "GAF CORPORATION,
COMMENTS RELATING TO THE DEPARTMENT
17
OF LABOR'S PROPOSED ASBESTOS
REGULATIONS TO BE PRESENTED AT
18
THE PUBLIC HEARINGS TO BE HELD
ON MARCH 14, 1972, CONSISTING OF
19
THIRTEEN PAGES; A PHOTOCOPY OF A
ONE-PAGE HANDWRITTEN DOCUMENT WITH
20
"REMOVED DOCUMENT" AT THE TOP;
A PHOTOCOPY OF A ONE-PAGE HANDWRITTEN
21
DOCUMENT WITH "REMOVED DOCUMENT" AT
THE TOP; AND A PHOTOCOPY OF A ONE-PAGE
22
DOCUMENT WITH "REMOVED DOCUMENT" AT
THE TOP, WERE MARKED AS PLAINTIFFS'
23
EXHIBIT NO. 42 FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
24
MR. SILBERFELD;
Q. Next is a memo dated
25
October 23rd, 1979, from Mr. Hooker to Messrs. Harkness
26
and Murphy. Let me show you that, sir.
27
A.
(Witness examining document.)
28
Yes, sir.
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
CnfijM 0193335 FLD 'J uUU3 o i i
293
1
Q.
With respect to Exhibit No. 42, did you personally
2
have any role in the development of a response strategy
3
by the AIA with regard to the OSHA asbestos number?
4
MR. SCHROETER:
Although 42 talks about other
3
agencies.
6
MR. SILBERFELD:
Right.
7
THE WITNESS:
I don't know whether there was
8
any response made by the company. And my only participation j
9
is as expressed here in submitting information from AIA.
j
10
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. Mr. Hooker, I don't know
11
that we established earlier -- and if we did, I apologize
12
for going over it again. When did Flintkote acquire the
j
13
Orangeburg pipe facility?
i
i
14
A.
Again, it's in the exhibits here. But I'd approximate
15
19 -- in the late '50's.
|
16
Q.
And whom did Flintkote acquire that facility from?
!
I
17
A.
The Orangeburg Manufacturing Company, which was a
!
18
company within itself.
19
Q.
What product did that facility manufacture?
j
i
20
A.
It made what is known as fiber pipe and conduit.
21
Q.
22
A.
Did any product manufactured there contain asbestos?
Yes, sir.
j
23
Q.
And once the facility was purchased, did it become
24
a division of The Flintkote Company?
25
A.
Yes, sir.
26
Q.
At the time that the division was first acquired,
|
1
27
who ran that division?
28
A.
I don't know. It was prior to my association with
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SMORTMANO REPORTERS
019333 FLD 053 332
294
.1
our corporate activities.
2
Q.
Do you remember whether a man by the name of Koch,
3
K-o-c-h, was employed at the Orangeburg Pipe Division?
4
A.
5
Q.
6
A.
7
8
9
10
11
12
At least in 1962, he was, when I went to corporate.
What was his capacity at that time?
j
*
I
I believe it was marketing and sales.
\
I
(WHEREUPON, A PHOTOCOPY OF A
ONE-PAGE LETTER ON THE LETTERHEAD
j
OF JOHNS-MANVILLE CORPORATION,
j
DATED AUGUST 7, 1961, ADDRESSED
j
TO MR. KOCH, ORANGEBURG PIPE
'
DIVISION, FROM W. L. VANDERBEEK,
j
j VICE PRESIDENT AND PRODUCTION
|
MANAGER, WAS MARKED AS PLAINTIFFS'
EXHIBIT NO. 43 FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
J
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. As Exhibit 43, I've marked j
13
a letter on the letterhead of Johns-Manvilie Corporation,
j
14
Pipe Division, August 7, 1981, directed to Mr. Koch from
j
i
15
Mr. VanDerbeek. Let me show you that letter, sir.
!
16
A.
(Witness examining document.)
!
17
Q.
Have you seen that letter before today, sir?
|
I
18
A.
Only in review of the documents with counsel.
j
19
Q.
Have you and Mr. Koch ever discussed when asbestos
20
health hazards were first suspected with regard to the
21
products manufactured at the Orangeburg Pipe Division?
|
22
A.
I do not recall of ever discussing health hazards
23
with Mr. Koch.
|
24
Q.
Is Mr. Koch still employed by the company?
j
25
A.
No, sir.
j
26
Q.
Is he living?
|
27
A.
I don't know.
;
28
q . Do you know where he lived when you last knew of him? !
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED s h o r t h a n d REPORTERS
_ r VHn
FL0
0193335 w .,-* c
OU'-K'5^
295
1
A.
In the environs of Ravenna, Ohio.
2
Q.
What's Ravenna near?
3
A.
Akron.
4
(WHEREUPON, A PHOTOCOPY OF A
ONE-PAGE LETTER ON THE LETTERHEAD
5
OF CANADIAN JOHNS-MANVILLE CO.,
LIMITED, DATED JUNE 4, 1968,
6
TO "DEAR SIR," AND A PHOTOCOPY OF
A THREE-PAGE DOCUMENT ENTITLED
7
"Q.A.M.A." DATED MAY 2, 1968,
WERE MARKED AS PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT
8
NO. 44 FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
9
10
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. 44 will be a letter on
11
the letterhead of Canadian Johns-Manville, Limited, dated
12 June 4, 1968, with certain attachments to it. i
13
A.
(Witness examining document.)
14 Your question? !
15
Q.
My question is: What was Mr. Heubner's capacity
16 in June of 1968? i
17
A.
Best of ray knowledge, he was the corporate manager
i
18
of insurance and safety.
l
19
Q.
And who was president of the company in 1968?
(t
20
A.
I believe 1968, George Pecaro, I believe, was
[
21
president at that time.
j
i
22
Q.
With respect to Exhibit No. 44, do you recognize the j
23 received stamp in the upper right-hand corner as being that j
24
used by the office of the president?
i
25
A.
I do not know whether that's our stamp or not.
26
Q.
Have you ever seen this document or the attachments
27
before today?
j
28
A.
No.
r.o .i:f
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED Sh o r t h a n d REPORTERS
F yAM 6V FID 000 Q
296
1
Q.
Did you know a Mr. Lindell who appears, at least
2
from this, to be chairman of the board of Canadian J-M?
3
A.
Yes, sir.
4
Q.
Did you have contact with Mr. Lindell during your
5
years of contact with Flintkote Mines, Limited?
6
A.
Yes, sir.
7
Q.
Did you and Mr. Lindell ever discuss the potential
8
health hazards of asbestos exposure?
9
A.
Not specifically.
10
Q.
Did Mr. Lindell ever provide you or anyone else
11
at Flintkote Mines, to your knowledge, with a list of
12
documents regarding the biological effects of asbestos
13
exposure?
14
A.
Not to my knowledge.
15
(WHEREUPON, A PHOTOCOPY OF A
ONE-PAGE LETTER ON THE LETTERHEAD
16
OF GAF CORPORATION, DATED MARCH 9,
1972, ADDRESSED TO MR. A. R. HOOKER,
17
JR. , AND A PHOTOCOPY OF A SEVEN-PAGE
DOCUMENT ENTITLED "OCCUPATIONAL
18
SAFETY & HEALTH ADMINISTRATION
PUBLIC HEARINGS ON PROPOSED
19
REGULATIONS CONCERNING ASBESTOS
DUST, WASHINGTON, D.C. - MARCH 14,
20
1972, STATEMENT OF JOSEPH G. HALL,"
WERE MARKED AS PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT
21
NO. 45 FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
22
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. 45 is a letter to Mr. Hooker
23
from GAF Corporation, Mr. Dent, dated March 9, 1972, and
24
attachments. Would you take a look at that for me, sir?
25
This may also be part of that. I'm not sure, but I think
26
it is.
27
A.
(Witness examining document.)
28
Your question?
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFICO SHORTHAND REPORTERS
0000 FvAM
F L D
60 i ?
:o co :o co
297
1
Q.
Sir, with regard to Exhibit 45 and the attachments,
2
did you ever participate in the asbestos hearings that
3
OSHA held, personally?
4
A.
No, sir.
5
Q.
Did you have any input with regard to what testimony
6
was given there?
7
A.
By GAF?
I
t
8
Q.
By anyone.
i
i
i
9
A.
Only as it related to my activities with AIA.
I
I
10
Q.
Did you formulate any written testimony that was
j
!
11
submitted at the OSHA hearings?
II
i
12
A.
No, sir.
13 Q.
Did you prepare a statement for the record to be
I
14
inserted on behalf of Flintkote?
15 A.
No, sir.
16 Q.
With regard to the search for substitute products
17 or substitute raw materials for the asbestos-containing I
18 floor tile that Flintkote manufactured, did you learn at
i
tI
19 anytime that there were companies manufacturing an asbestos-
20
free floor tile?
21 A.
We made an asbestos-free floor tile ourselves at
22 that time.
23 Q. 24 A.
And what was thatproduct called? Can't even remember the name. I may think of it in
25 a minute. I'm sorry, I don't remember the name of it.
26 Q.
Were you aware that there were manufacturers other
27 than Flintkote manufacturing asbestos-free floor tile in
1O CO O CO
28 the '70's when you were involved in this?
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED s m o r t h a n o r e p o r t e r s
l-vAM O ? FLD 0000
298
1
A.
Oh, yes.
2
Q.
Can you name some of those manufacturers?
3
A.
If I recall correctly, they were the rubber
4
companies producing rubber based floor tile, people in the
5
linoleum business were cutting the linoleum into squares
6
and selling it as floor tiles. That covers it in general. j
7
Q.
Was the asbestos-free floor tile that was manufactured I
8
by Flintkote different in terms of the uses to which the
9
product could be put than the asbestos-containing floor tile?
10
A.
Not in a general way, no. Its use was to be put down
11
on floors.
12
Q.
Well, did it have certain applications which the
13
asbestos-containing floor tile did not have?
14
A.
Only as a customer might demand a nonasbestos floor
15
tile or require the characteristics of that particular
16
product.
17
(WHEREUPON, A PHOTOCOPY OF A
ONE-PAGE MEMO ON THE LETTERHEAD
18
OF RESILIENT FLOOR COVERING
INSTITUTE, DATED AUGUST 10, 1977,
19
TO RFCI MEMBERS FROM ROBERT D.
MAURER, MANAGING DIRECTOR, AND
20
A PHOTOCOPY OF FIVE PAGES, THE
FIRST PAGE BEING ENTITLED
21
"NIOSH LISTS TRADE NAME PRODUCTS
CONTAINING CARCINOGENS REGULATED
22
BY OSHA," WERE MAREKD AS
PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 46 FOR
23
IDENTIFICATION.)
24
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. 46 is a letter on the
25
letterhead of the Resilient Floor Covering Institute, dated
26
August 10, 1977, to RFCI Members from Mr. Maurer,
27
M-a-u-r-e-r, managing director, and it has attachments to
C O C*J CO CO
co co
28
it. I'll ask you if you've ever seen that document before.
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
FvAil 01? FLD 0000
299
1
A.
(Witness examining document.)
2
Yes, sir. Your question?
3
Q.
Have you seen that before today, sir?
4
A.
I have seen a list before. Not necessarily that
5
document.
6
Q.
With respect to the Flintkote products listed on
7
the list of carcinogenic agents there, have you ever
8
personally participated in any attempt to have Flintkote
9
products removed from that list?
10
MR. SCHROETER:
Don't answer that right now.
11
Which ones are Flintkote products in your view? Just point
12
them out.
13
MR. SILBERFELD:
C-13-C4, Hydralt 800-13.
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THE WITNESS:
No, sir.
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15
MR. SILBERFELD:
Q. And the second one is
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Weatherproofing Compound, C 13A.
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17
A.
No, sir.
18
MR. SILBERFELD:
19
all I have.
20
MR. GRELL:
j !
Thank you. I believe that's
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I have just a couple of
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questions, Mr. Hooker.
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23
FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR. GRELL
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24
MR. GRELL:
Q. I don't have the document.
25
The exhibits are kind of floating around here now. But
26
there was a warning insert that was placed on boxes of
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27
floor tiles.
28
A.
I know what you're speaking of.
PATRICIA CALLAHAN * ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED SHORTHANO REPORTERS
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MR. SILBERFELD:
Exhibit 19.
2
MR. GRELL:
Q. Exhibit
3
I'm not quite sure if I understood you correctly.
4
Was it in 1977, the first time that such a warning was
5
put inside boxes of asbestos floor tile?
6
A.
I believe that is correct. I would have to go back
7
and search my records to see when that showed up.
8
Q.
ii
And that Exhibit 19, that was an insert that was put j
i 9
into the boxes?
)I
10
A.
Yes, sir.
/
11
Q.
And it could be pulled out of the box when the
12
box was opened?
13
A.
14
Q.
That's right. Were there any warning ever placed on the box
15
itself that the asbestos floor tile was contained in?
16
A.
Not that I remember.
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17
Q.
Do you recall ever putting a warning on the back
i
18
of the tile, the asbestos floor tile?
19
A.
No, sir.
20
Q.
Was there any indication of any warning on the
21
front of the asbestos floor tile?
22
A.
No, sir.
23
Q.
Earlier, there were some questions regarding your
24
involvement with government specifications, and you said
25
that your involvement was with marketing and sales, and I
26
wasn't quite sure what you meant by that. Just exactly
27
what was your involvement?
28
A.
I don't remember what question I was responding to.
CO CO
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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1
But certain periods of time, I had certain responsibilities.
2
Other periods of tine, I didn't have those responsibilities.
3
And 1 was trying to define, whatever I was responding to,
4
what question 1 was responding to, that during the time I
I
5
was involved in sales and marketing, I answered the question. |
6
Q.
Your involvement in sales and marketing was in the
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7
'40's and '50's; is that correct?
I
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8
MR. SCHROETER:
He told you that yesterday.
!
9
MR. GRELL:
I was just trying to go back.
10
THE WITNESS:
I wasn't, in those years,
11
involved in sales and marketing.
12
MR. GRELL:
Q. During that time period !
!
13
when you had responsibilities regarding federal specifica- j
14
tions, what were those responsibilities?
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15
A.
As assistant manager --
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16
MR. JUDY:
Wait a minute. Federal
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17
specifications asopposed to military specifications?
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18
MR. GRELL:
Q. Military specifications.
J
19
A.
A military spec is a federal spec, if I may so
|
20
encompass.
21
Q.
Fine.
22
A.
And we were involved in marketing products to the
23
military establishment. Where necessary, we either supplied j
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24
a product to meet those specifications, or if the military j
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25
wanted our product, we triedto develop a specification
!
26
with them to meet ourproduct.
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27
Q.
Did you work within the government in developing
5
28
a specification?
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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c e r t if ie d Sh o r t h a n d r e p o r t e r s
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A.
At local level. Not -- We would work with the local
2
facility to develop a specification for our products.
3
This is West Coast operation only that I was involved in
4
in those years.
5
Q. Was that the full extent of your responsibilities?
6
You would work with the local agencies for developing
7
specifications?
8
A.
Only from a sales point of view. W e 're trying to
9
sell product.
10
I don't understand what else you're looking for.
11
Q.
I don't understand exactly what it was that you did
12
when you would talk to the government regarding developing
13
specifications. And that's my question.
14
A.
We had a product we would try to sell them. And
15
we would give them our specifications for that product,
16
performance specifications. And in order for them to buy
17
it, if it was necessary for them to have an approved
18
specification, we would work with them to get that specifi
19
cation approved.
20
Q.
This deposition was continued from yesterday, and
21
I was just wondering, is there anything that you testified
22
to yesterday or this morning that you feel may have been
23
incorrect and needs to be changed?
24
A.
Can I make reference, Counsel, to the conversation
25
we had prior to the meeting this morning?
26
MR. SCHROETER:
What you and I talked about
27
is none of his business.
28
THE WITNESS:
We were talking to another
ro co
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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party.
2
MR. SCHROETER:
There had been a dialogue --
3
MR. MURRAY:
If you're talking about the
j
4
conversation you had with me, you certainly have my
j
3
permission.
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6
THE WITNESS:
That's what I'm referring to.
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7
MR. MURRAY:
And I've already asked you
j
8
questions about that area.
9
MR. GRELL:
Q. You've cleared that up
i
10
regarding -- I think it was Exhibit 3 -- on the record.
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s
11
MR. SCHROETER:
Mr. Murray has taken care of
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12
that on the record, and what he said more than reflects
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13
what we said prior to.
14
MR. GRELL:
j
Q. Other than that, is there j
15
anything else that you feel needs to be corrected?
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16
A.
At this time, no. I reserve the right to look at
!
17
the transcript.
;
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18
Q.
Sure. You'll have an opportunity.
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19
MR. SCHROETER:
The time has now come for us
20
to go home.
21
MR. O'CONNELL:
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c
I have a question on one of
j
22
the exhibits which was introduced in the last moments. It j
23
will only take a few minutes.
24
25
EXAMINATION BY MR. O'CONNELL
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26
MR. O 'CONNELL:
Q. Mr. Hooker, I 'm Randy
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2?
O ' C o n n e l l , representing GAF.
i
28
This is in reference to Exhibit 45, the letter from
i
CO o:>
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PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
CERTIFIED Sh o r t h a n d r e p o r t e r s
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Mr. Dent of GAF to you.
2
Did you know Mr. Dent through the AIA?
3
A.
Yes, sir.
4
Q.
Did you ultimately send any comments on the draft
5
testimony or otherwise participate in any testimony GAF
6
might have given at that OSHA hearing?
7
A.
I didn't personally.
8
Q.
Are you aware of any?
9
A.
I'm not aware of any.
10
Q.
And to your knowledge, did GAF ever participate
11
in the formulation of any testimony which Flintkote might
12
have ever given to OSHA?
13
A.
To my knowledge, Flintkote never gave any testimony
14
to OSHA. To my knowledge, they never did.
15
Q.
And as far as you know, was the only reason for the
16
circulation of this testimony to you your common participa-
17
tion in AIA?
18
A.
Yes, sir.
19
MR. O 'CONNELL:
That's all I have.
20
MR. GRELL:
I just have one clarification.
21
My last line of questioning referred to an Exhibit
22
19, which was the warning that was the insert put in the
23
asbestos floor tile. It turns out that is Exhibit 20,
24
and I would like the record changed.
25
MR. SILBERFELD:
With respect to the original,
26
can we stipulate that the original transcript will be sent
27
to Mr. Schroeter, and Mr. Schroeter will see that it is
28
transmitted to the witness for his review and signature?
in in
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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MR. SCHROETER:
Under penalty of perjury without
2
a notary.
3
MR. SILBERFELD:
Mr. Schroeter will be the
4
custodian of the original. He'll give us notice of any
5
changes. And if all that isn't accomplished within 45
6
days of the time Mr. Schroeter gets it from the reporter,
7
a copy can be used for all purposes.
8
MR. SCHROETER:
I'll stipulate to that.
9
10
(Whereupon, the deposition was concluded at 11:30
a
o'clock a.m.)
12
13
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15
SIGNATURE OF WITNESS
16
17 i
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25 !
26
27
28
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*o CO
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PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATES
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305
1 STATE OF CALIFORNIA)
) ss
2
COUNTY OF ALAMEDA )
3
4
I, the undersigned, a Notary Public of the State
1
5 of California, hereby certify that the witness in the
j
II 6 foregoing deposition was by me duly sworn to testify to
7 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in
8 the within-entitled cause; that said deposition was taken
9 at the time and place therein stated; that the testimony
i
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10
of said witness was reported by me, a Certified Shorthand
j
11
Reporter and a disinterested person, and was thereafter
j
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{
12
transcribed under my direction into typewriting; that the
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13 foregoing is a full, complete and true record of said
j
14 testimony; and that the witness was given an opportunity
j
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15 to read and, if necessary, correct said deposition and
1
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16 to subscribe the same.
I
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17
I further certify that I am not of counsel or
j
18 attorney for either or any of the parties in the foregoing
19 deposition and caption named, nor in any way interested in
20
the outcome of the cause named in said caption.
S
21
IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set nv hand
22
and affixed my seal this 27th day of &nri i_______ 19 84
23
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I T J H Z CHMKS I
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26 '*-N*cv`**2. g5
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NOTARY PUBLj STATE OF CALIFORNIA
______________________________ __________________ __
PATRICIA CALLAHAN & ASSOCIATE
C ER TIFIED SH O R TH AND REPORTERS
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