Document VJe7qX1VymZyE5wkvNx0RDv5Z

FILE NAME DuPont DUP DATE 1986 Oct 23 DOC DUP003 DOCUMENT DESCRIPTION Legal - Deposition of James Morgan SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW LAW DIVISION - CAMDEN DOCKET NO 27251-79 JERSEY COUNTY WILLIAM B. MILLISON PLAINTIFF VS. E.I. DU PONT DE NEMOURS & COMPANY ET AL ORAL DEPOSITION AS \ fo JAMES F. MORGAN | ae NNasbesto only only a x * & * * THURSDAY OCTOBER 23 1986 10 x * * * * 11 TRANSCRIPITN THE ABOVE MATTER TAKEN HOTEL DU PONT 1007 MARKET STREET AT ROOM 10:00 12 AT THE COMMENCING WILMINGTON DELAWARE 7150 13 M. 14 15 16 17 18 19 APPEARANCES APPEARANCES TOMAR SELIGER SIMONOFF ADOURIAN & O'BRIEN ESQUIRES BY DAVID JACOBY ESQUIRE ATTORNEYS FOR THE PLAINTIFF CARPENTER BENNETT & BY ROSEMARY ALITO MORRISSEY ESQUIRE ATTORNEYS FOR E.I. DU PONT ESQUIRES 20 21 22 23 24 CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTING ARRANGED THROUGH SERVICES MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC SUITE 310 CHERRY 2201 ROUTE 38 HILL NEW JERSEY 08002 609 964-3440 MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals morgan 3,11 OF MR MORGAN BY MR JACOBY OF MR MORGAN 120,21 BY MS ALITO MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals kwd o [ morgan REQUEST OBJECTION 16 4 43 3 53,19 70 4 94 4 28 7 45,12 57 1 73 1 100 7 37,24 46,18 58 l 76,18 DIRECTION 38,22 47,16 60.22 89 9 39 5 48,10 67,11 89,25 MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals EXHIBITS EXHIBITS P MORGAN THROUGH P MORGAN DOCUMENTS 3 7 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals IT IS AGREED BY AND BETWEEN COUNSEL THAT THE READING AND SIGNING OF THE DEPOSITION BE WAIVED AND THAT ALL OBJECTIONS EXCEPT AS TO THE FORM OF THE QUESTION BE RESERVED UNTIL THE TIME OF TRIAL 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 EXHIBITS P MORGAN THROUGH P MORGAN ARE MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION JAMES F. MORGAN HAVING BEEN DULY SWORN WAS EXAMINED AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS ) EXAMINATION OF MR MORGAN BY MR JACOBY :) Q. GOOD MORNING MR MORGAN MY NAME IS DAVE JACOBY AND I'M HERE TODAY TO TAKE YOUR DEPOSITION MY OFFICE REPRESENTS A NUMBER OF PAST AND PRESENT DUPONT EMPLOYEES WHO HAVE FILED A LAWSUIT ALLEGING VARYING DEGREES OF ASBESTOS DISEASE 18 HAVE YOU EVER HAD YOUR DEPOSITION TAKEN 19 BEFORE SIR A. YES I HAVE 21 Q. HAVE YOU EVER HAD IT TAKEN AS A REPRESENTIVE 22 OF THE DUPONT COMPANY 23 A. NO 24 Q. IN WHAT CONTEXT HAVE YOU HAD A DEPOSITION 25 TAKEN MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY A. AS AN EXPERT WITNESS Q. IS THAT PART OF YOUR PRIVATE CONSULTING PRACTICE THAT THAT WAS DONE A. YES IT IS I WILL GO OVER WITH YOU BRIEFLY SIR SOME 2 INSTRUCTIONS OKAY 7 I'M GOING TO ASK YOU A SERIES OF QUESTIONS IF YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND ANY QUESTION THAT I MAY 10 11 12 13 14 15 ASK YOU SIR PLEASE ASK ME TO REPEAT THE QUESTION I'D BE MOST HAPPY TO DO SO IF YOU THINK A QUESTION IS SUSCEPTIBLE TO MORE THAN ONE INTERPRETATION PLEASE TELL ME THAT THE QUESTION IS NOT CLEAR TO YOU AND AGAIN I'LL REPHRASE THE QUESTION IF YOU DO ANSWER A QUESTION I'M GOING TO ASSUME THAT YOU UNDERSTOOD THE QUESTION THAT I 16 17 18 19 ASKED YOU I REMIND YOU SIR YOU ARE UNDER OATH AND ANY TESTIMONY YOU GIVE HERE THIS MORNING IS SUBJECT TO THE SAME PENALTIES AS IF YOU WERE IN A 20 21 22 COURTROOM DO YOU UNDERSTAND MY INSTRUCTIONS A. YES I DO 23 Q. ANY QUESTIONS 24 A. 25 Q. THANK YOU ALL RIGHT DID YOU REVIEW ANY MATERIAL MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY SIR IN PREPARATION FOR THIS DEPOSITION THIS MORNING A. I SAW SOME LETTERS CORRESPONDENCE THAT HAD MY NAME ON THEM AND I SAW THEM BRIEFLY LIKE I JUST SAW YOURS THE ONES THAT YOU HANDED ME MS ALITO ALL OF THE DOCUMENTS THAT MR MORGAN REVIEWED YESTERDAY IN PREPARATION FOR THE DEPOSITION YOU HAVE BEEN PRODUCED MR JACOBY OKAY ARE THESE THE -~ 10 MS ALITO IT'S THE STACK OF 11 DOCUMENTS THAT I HANDED TO YOU SEVERAL MONTHS 12 AGO 13 BY MR JACOBY 14 Q. 15 A. OKAY THERE WERE A COUPLE THAT YOU HANDED ME THIS 16 17 18 19 20 MORNING THAT I HAD NOT SEEN Q. DID YOU REVIEW ANY DOCUMENTS TO THE BEST OF YOUR MEMORY THAT YOU WERE NOT ON AS EITHER THE SENDER OF THE DOCUMENT THE RECEIVER OF THE DOCUMENT OR SOMEONE WHO WAS COPIED WITH A 21 21 DOCUMENT 22 A. 23 Q. 24 A. NO I DID NOT DID YOU REVIEW ANY MATERIALS BY DR STOPPS ONLY THOSE LETTERS OF HIS WHICH HAD ME MARKED FOR A COPY MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY Q. | A WHAT ABOUT KEN KEUPER SAME THING Q. SIR AT THE PRESENT TIME YOU ARE EMPLOYED IS THAT CORRECT A. THAT'S CORRECT Q. AND I'M LOOKING NOW AT WHAT WE'VE MARKED P MORGAN WHICH IS YOUR RESUME I JUST WANT TO GO THROUGH IT BRIEFLY YOU'VE BEEN EMPLOYED AS A CONSULTANT IN INDUSTRIAL HYGIENE SINCE 1981 10 IS THAT CORRECT 11 A. 12 Q. 1980 1980 Sor Reser 19e0" THAT TUD 13 DUPONT COMPANY 14 A. THAT'S CORRECTO 15 Q. AND YOU BEGAN EMPLOY EMPLOY AT THE DUPONS 16 IN COMPANY 1961 3. THAT CORRECTS 17 18 Q. 19 WHEN BEGAN BEGAN YOUR x EMPLOY AT THE DUPONT -DUPON MEIN DID YOU HAVE A JOB CLASSIFICATION 20 21 TITLE WAS ASSISTANT TO THE DIRECTOR OF 22 HASKELL LABORATORY . 23 Q. DURING THE COURSE OF YOUR EMPLOYMENT AT DUPONT DID THAT JOB TITLE EVER CHANGE A. IT CHANGED AT ONE POINT I WAS DESIGNATED A MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY CONSULTANT IN INDUSTRIAL HYGIENE Q. YOUR FIRST TITLE WAS ASSISTANT TO THE DIRECTOR OF HASKELL LAB A. THAT'S CORRECT Q WHO WAS THE DIRECTOR IN 1961 A. JOHN ZAPP Q. . OKAY WITH YOUR CHANGE IN JOB TITLE DID YOUR DUTIES CHANGE AT ANY TIME THROUGHOUT THE COURSE OF YOUR NINETEEN YEARS OR SO AT DUPONTS 10 A. WELL THERE WAS ANOTHER CHANGE THAT -- I WAS 11 PROMOTED TO A CLASS THEY CALL STAFF CONSULTANT 12 Q 13 A. -~ AND WHAT EXACTLY AND I BEGAN TO TAKE ON MORE RESPONSIBLE 14 ASSIGNMENTS I GUESS THERE'S NO CHANGE IN 15 FORMATION THOUGH I STILL REPORTED TO THE 16 ASSISTANT DIRECTOR OF HASKELL LABORATORY 17 Q. -- WHEN YOU STARTED YOU WERE THE ASSISTANT 18 A. ASSISTANT TO THE DIRECTOR 19 Q. 20 A. YES BUT ADMINISTRATIVELY I REPORTED TO THE 21 ASSISTANT DIRECTOR 22 Q. 23 A. AND WHO WAS THAT IN 1961 IN 1961 IT WAS WESLEY CLAYTON 24 Q. COULD YOU TELL ME SIR AS BEST YOU CAN 25 GOING BACK OVER YOUR NINETEEN YEARS AT DUPONTS MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY YOUR IMMEDIATE SUPERVISORS YOU BEGAN WITH CLAYTON IN 1961 A. IT BEGAN WITH CLAYTON I THINK HE WAS SUCCEEDED BY STOPPS GORDON STOPPS Q. A. YOU REPORTED DIRECTLY TO DR STOPPS AT SOME POINT IN THERE THERE WAS A DR MC CUSICK WHO WAS MADE MY SUPERIOR HIS TITLE WAS MANAGER OF ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS OR SOME SUCH THING AS THAT HE WAS A MEDICAL DOCTOR 10 11 12 13 14 15 Q. ANYONE ELSE SIR A. IN LATER YEARS IT WAS DR MC CUSICK WHO BECAME ASSISTANT DIRECTOR OF THE LABORATOARNYD I REPORTED TO HIM BUT I ALSO REPORTED NOT DIRECTLY TO MC CUSICK BUT TO AN INTERMEDIATE WHO WAS AGAIN A MANAGER OF ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS HIS NAME WAS 16 FRANK BOWER 17 Q. DID YOU EVER REPORT DIRECTLY TO DR 18 D'ALONZO 19 A. 20 Q. 21 A. 22 Q. 23 A. NO DID YOU EVER REPORT DIRECTLY TO DR ZAHN NO WHAT ABOUT DR REINHARDT NOT DIRECTLY 24 Q. 25 A. DID YOU KNOW -- YES I DID REPORT DIRECTLY TO DR MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY REINHARDT WHEN HE BECAME DIRECTOR OF HASKELL LABORATORY HE SERVED FOR A TIME AS A MANAGER OF ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS WE HAD A WHOLE SUCCESSION OF THEM MANAGERS OF ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS THAT DIDN'T STAY VERY LONG AND ANOTHER ONE WHOM I FORGOT TO MENTION WAS BRUCE CARR Q. YOU REPORTED DIRECTLY TO DR CARR AT SOME POINT A. YES 10 Q. WAS YOUR ENTIRE EMPLOY AT DUPONTS RELEGATED 11 TO THE HASKELL LABORATORY 12 A. 13 Q. YES AND THE EMPLOYEE RELATIONS DEPARTMENT IS 14 15 16 THAT CORRECT A. UNTIL THE LATER YEARS WHEN HASKELL LABORATORY BECAME A PART OF THE CENTRAL RESEARCH 17 AND DEVELOPMENT DEPARTMENT 18 Q. OKAY DOCTOR LOOKING AT YOUR - EXCUSE ME 19 MR MORGAN -- 20 21 22 23 A. YOU CAN CALL ME JIM Q. LOOKING AT YOUR RESUME I SEE THAT YOU RECEIVED YOUR EDUCATION AT LOYOLA UNIVERSITY IN NEW ORLEANS IN 1933 TO '36 IS THAT CORRECT 24 A. 25 Q. THAT'S WHEN I STARTED COLLEGE AND THEN GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY +37 MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals 10 MORGAN - JACOBY TO '39 AND THEN GEORGETOWN 39 TO 42 IN 1942 SIR POLROUNDED POLROUNDED THE HARVARD SCHOOL OF PUBLI^ HEAL CORR THAT THE AT COC RRECT T COR ECT A. THAT'S CORRECT Q. DID YOU GRADUATE FROM THE HARVARD SCHOOL OF PUBLIC HEALTH A. THIS WAS A SPECIAL SCHOOL WHICH THE SCHOOL OF PUBLIC HEALTH PUT ON FOR A SUCCESSION OF NAVY OFFICERS AND I WAS IN THE LAST COURSE IN THAT 10 SUCCESSION I DID NOT GET A DEGREE I WAS 11 AWARDED A CERTIFICATE IN INDUSTRIAL HYGIENE 12 Q. WHERE HAD YOU RECEIVED YOUR SPECIALIZED 13 TRAINING IN INDUSTRIAL HYGIENE 14 A. AT THE HARVARD SCHOOL OF PUBLIC HEALTH abc 15 THAT'S WHAT I WAS SENT THERE FOR 16 Q. PRIOR TO GOING - HOW LONG WAS THIS COURSE 17 THAT YOU TOOK 18 19 20 21 A. ABOUT FOUR MONTHS e Q. ALL RIGHT PRIOR TO THE FOUR MONTHS IN 1942 AT THE HARVARD SCHOOL OF PUBLIC HEALTH HAD YOU RECEIVED ANY SPECIALIZED TRAINING IN INDUSTRIAL 22 HYGIENE AT ANY TIME 23 A. NO I HAD BEEN WORKING IN BIOLOGICAL 24 CHEMISTRY 25 Q. WAS THAT YOUR MAJOR COURSE OF STUDY IN MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals 11 MORGAN - JACOBY COLLEGE A. I MAJORED IN CHEMISTRY IN COLLEGE AND AT GEORGETOWN I TOOK GRADUATE WORK IN BIOCHEMISTRY 2 DID YOU GET A DEGREE IN BIOCHEMISTRY A. NO I WENT INTO THE NAVY SHORT OF GETTING MY DEGREE FROM GEORGETOWN Q. IN THE FORM OF DEGREES YOU HAVE A BACHELORS DEGREE A. BACHELORS OF SCIENCE AND CHEMISTRY 10 Q. THE MONTH TRAINING SCHOOL AT HARVARD 11 WAS FOR INDUSTRIAL HYGIENE IS THAT CORRECT 12 A. THAT'S RIGHT 13 Q. NOW SIR I'M NOT GOING TO GO OVER WITH YOU 14 YOUR VARIOUS EMPLOYMENT AS INDICATED IN YOUR 15 RESUME I'LL JUST ASK YOU IS THIS RESUME TO THE 16 BEST OF YOUR KNOWLEDGE AN ACCURATE REFLECTION OF 17 YOUR EMPLOYMENT HISTORY 18 19 20 A. IT IS ACCURATE 2 AND IF ANYTHING HAPPENS IN THE FUTURE THAT SHOULD BE ADDED TO THE RESUME IF YOU'LL BE GOOD 21 ENOUGH TO LET ME KNOW OKAY 22 A. ALL RIGHT Q. IF YOU GET APPOINTED TO A PRESIDENTIAL 24 COMMISSION OR WHATEVER OKAY 25 IS IT SAFE TO SAY SIR THAT UPON YOUR - MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY 12 CENBCE ENBER R TO AREAS RELATING TO INDUSTRIAL HYGIENE 2 A. I WORKED WAS IN THE NAVY INDUSTRIAL HYGIENE LONG AS 1. AND THAT ENDED EARLY IN 1946 A. AT WHICH TIME I WENT BACK TO MY CIVILIAN JOB IN BIOCHEMISTRY BUT AFTER A SHORT PERIOD OF TIME TIME 10 I REALIZED THAT T PREFERRED WORKING IN INDUSTRIAL INDUSTRIAL 11 12 OP MY CARB CARE BERRINDUSTRIAL INDUSTRIAL HYGIENE HYGIENE 13 Q. CULMINATING IN THE LAST SIX YEARS OR SO AND 14 I DON'T MEAN TO HOLD YOU TO THE YEARS I'M JUST 15 USING APPROXIMATIONS AS / YOUR EMPLOYMENT AS 16 A PRIVATE CONSULTANT IS THAT CORRECT 17 A. YES IMMEDIATELY UPON LEAVING DUPONT I 18 JOINED A CONSULTING FIRM WITH HEADQUARTERS IN 19 MINNEAPOLIS AND I OPENED AN EAST COAST BRANCH 20 BUT I HAD A HEALTH PROBLEM THAT YEAR AND WAS NOT 21 22 ABLE TO WORK UP THE BUSINESS AND I RESIGNED AFTER OH ABOUT FOUR MONTHS 23 Q. WHY DID YOU LEAVE DUPONT SIR 24 A. 1 WAS OLD ENOUGH TO RETIRE 25 Q AND HOW OLD IS THAT MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals 13 MORGAN - JACOBY A. WELL I RETIRED JUST SHORTLY BEFORE MY FIFTH BIRTHDAY I'M SEVENTY NOW 2 A. Q. OKAY I DON'T JOG THAT'S WHY I LOOK YOUNG IF I WOULD HAVE GUESSED I WOULD HAVE BEEN WAY OFF MR MORGAN I WANT TO TALK WITH YOU FOR JUST A FEW MINUTES ABOUT YOUR FORMAL TRAINING IN INDUSTRIAL HYGIENE WHAT IS INDUSTRIAL HYGIENE SIR 10 A. INDUSTRIAL HYGIENE IS AN ART AND SCIENCE 11 THAT DEALS WITH THE PROTECTION OF THE HEALTH OF 12 14 15 16 17 WORKERS Q. DOES IT INVOLVE SIR THE IDENTIFYING OF VARIOUS CLASSIFICATIONS OF WORKERS WHO MAY BE AT RISK OF BEING EXPOSED TO OCCUPATIONAL AGENTS A. YES IT CONSISTS OF THE IDENTIFICATION OF HAZARDS AND PEOPLE AT RISK AND THE EVALUATION OF 18 THE RISK AND CONTROL OF IT 19 20 21 22 Q. AND THE INDUSTRIAL HYGIENE IN THIS COUNTRY SIR IS A VERY STRUCTURED OCCUPATION IS IT NOT IN TERMS OF PROFESSIONAL ASSOCIATIONS AND PERIODICALS RECEIVED AND SO ON WOULD THAT BE 23 CORRECT 24 A. YEAH THAT IS CORRECT IT HAS BEEN FOR A 25 NUMBER OF YEARS MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY 14 Q. AND YOU HAVE BEEN A MEMBER AS YOUR RESUME INDICATES OF ANY NUMBER OF PROFESSIONAL ASSOCIATIONS DEVOTED TO INDUSTRIAL HYGIENE IS THAT CORRECT A. THAT'S CORRECT Q INCLUDING THE ACGIH AMERICAN CONFERENCE OF GOVERNMENTAL AND INDUSTRIAL HYGIENE A. I WAS ELIGIBLE FOR MEMBERSHIP WHEN I WAS IN THE U.S. NAVY 10 Q. AND AS A MEMBER OF THESE VARIOUS 11 PROFESSIONAL ASSOCIATIONS DID YOU GET THEIR 12 PERIODICALS 13 A. YES I GOT THE PERIODICALS OF THE AMERICAN 14 INDUSTRIAL HYGIENE ASSOCIATION AND HAD ACCESS TO 15 MANY OF THE PERIODICALS AND SPECIAL PUBLICATIONS 16 OF THE ACGIH AND NATIONAL SAFETY COUNSEL AND -- 17 Q. DID YOU GET THE AMERICAN JOURNAL OF 18 INDUSTRIAL HYGIENE 19 A. YES THAT WAS THE FIRST ONE THAT I 20 MENTIONED 21 Q. THROUGHOUT THE COURSE OF YOUR CAREER I DON'T SAY READ RELIGIOUSLY BUT DID YOU READ THESE PERIODICALS THAT YOU RECEIVED DID YOU LOOK AT THEM A. I REVIEWED THEM AND I READ CERTAIN ARTICLES MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals 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rofessionals Serving Professionals 16 MORGAN - JACOBY WHAT'S MADE IN THOSE PLANTS TO UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENT STRATA OF EMPLOYEES AND WHAT THEY DO AND TO BE THERE PHYSICALLY IS THAT ~-- OBJECTION MS ALITO I OBJECT TO THE QUESTION ON THE GROUND THAT IT'S NOT CLEAR WHETHER WE'RE SPEAKING ABOUT INDUSTRIAL HYGIENE IN GENERAL OR MR MORGAN'S RESPONSIBILITIES AS AN INDUSTRIAL HYGIENIST 10 MR JACOBY I'LL REPHRASE IT 11 BY MR JACOBY 12 Q. AS PART OF YOURRESPONSTATETT 13 THE DUPONT COMPANY COMPANY DID YOU HAVE OCCASION OCCASION TO MAKE 14 PHYSICAL INSPECTIONS OF THE PLANTS THAT YOU WERE 15 RESPONSIBLE RESPONSIBLE RESPONSIBLE FON w 16 18 19 20 21 THE 22 Q. A. 24 Q. 25 A. Ka ALANG ENDEEPWATER CHAM WORB KS E ON SR EVES RAL THE 1984 PERIOD I CAN'T GIVE YOU | NUMBEORF TIMESI WAS THEng. CAN YOU GIVE ME AN APPROXIMATION I'D SAY THREE OR FOUR TIMES add in in WHAT ABOUT THE REPAUNO PLANT NO I DIDN'T SEE REPAUNO MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals 17 MORGAN -- JACOBY Q. DID WORKS YOU KNOW WHAT WAS MADE AT CHAMBERS A. I KNEW SOME OF THE PRODUCTS AT CHAMBERS WORKS Q. DID YOU KNOW THAT ASBESTOS WAS BEING USED AT THE CHAMBERS WORKS PLANT AS INSULATION A. MY VISITS TO CHAMBERS WORKS DID NOT CONCERN ITSELF WITH THE USE OF ASBESTOS BUT I WAS AWARE THAT IT WAS THERE BECAUSE ~- 10 2 YOU WERE AWARE GENERALLY THAT IT WAS USED 11 THROUGHOUT THE DUPONT COMPANY 12 A. YES 13 14 Q. I THINK IN ONE OF THE DOCUMENTS WE'LL DISCUSS IN A FEW MINUTES YOU CALLED IT UBIQUITOUS A. THAT'S A GOOD WORD 16 Q. IT'S YOUR WORD NOT MINE BUT I LIKE IT 17 YOU'RE AWARE THAT ASBESTOS WAS USED AS PIPE 18 INSULATION IS THAT CORRECT 19 A. YES 20 21 22 23 24 2 AND WERE YOU AWARE SIR BEGINNING WITH YOUR EMPLOY IN 1961 WITH DUPONT THAT THERE ARE CLASSIFICATIONS OF PEOPLE WHO WORKED WITH ASBESTOS ON A DAILY BASIS I'M TALKING SPECIFICALLY ABOUT THE INSULATORS A. I KNEW FROM MY PREVIOUS EXPERIENCE IN MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY 18 CHEMICAL PROCESSING AND OIL REFINING THAT IN ORDER TO USE ASBESTOS INSULATION IN A LARGE PLANT YOU ALMOST HAD TO HAVE INSULATING SHOPS TO FABRICATE PIECES AND YOU HAD OTHER PEOPLE TO INSTALL THEM Q. AND WHEN YOU SAY FABRICATE THEM CUT TO SIZE AND DO MECHANICAL PROCESSES INVOLVING IT AND CUTTING TRANSITE SHAPING THAT TYPE OF THING A. THAT TYPE OF THING YES 2 ALL RIGHT AND TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE SIR AS 10 AN INDUSTRIAL HYGIENIST IS THAT NORMALLY A DUSTY 11 PROCEDURE 12 A. SOME OF THE PROCESSES DO PRODUCE DUST AND 13 REQUIRE DUST CONTROL 14 Q. WHAT ABOUT TEAR WORK OR OFF WORK TO 15 YOUR KNOWLEDGE WAS THAT A DUSTY PROCESS 16 A. IT CAN BE YES AND I DON'T RECALL EVER 17 HAVING WITNESSED IT AT CHAMBERS WORKS OR ANY 18 DUPONT PLANT 19 Q. DO YOU RECALL HAVING RECEIVED DOCUMENTS 20 TALKING SPECIFICALLY ABOUT HOW DUSTY THESE 21 OPERATIONS WERE AND DO YOU RECALL YOUR HAVING 22 AUTHORED DOCUMENTS TALKING SPECIFICALLY ABOUT HOW 23 DUSTY THESE OPERATIONS WERE 24 A. AT THE MOMENT I DON'T RECALL THOSE THINGS 25 Q. OKAY WE'LL DISCUSS THEM IN A FEW MINUTES MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY | 19 emer 1961SIR KNOW EM ASKING YOU TO YOU BEGAN YOUR EMPLOY iKed NOWLEDGEOFASBESTOS DIDYOU KNOW WHAT Mae KNOWLEDGE IT WAS A. YES Q. DID YOU KNOW THEN WHAT IT WAS USED FOR A. YES Q. AND DID YOU ACQUIRE THAT KNOWLEDGE WHILE ATTENDING YOUR COURSE THE HARVARD SCHOOL 10 INDUSTRIAL HYGIEN?E 11 A. THAT'S THE HARVARD SCHOOL OF PUBLIC 12 Q. I'M SORRY 13 A. THAT'S WHEN I FIRST LEARNED ABOUT THE THE 14 POSSIBILITY OF OCCUPATIONAL OCCUPATIONAL DISEASE FROM THE USE eee ots atid 15 OF PROCESSING OF ASBESTOS 16 Q. AND YOU LEARN SIR THAT NEEDED TO 17 BE CONTRO INLTE HENCOD NTROL OF THE 18 UTOBASES WAS THE DUST THAT WAS 19 THAT HAD BE CONTROLLED FETHAT FETHAT ? THATIN 1961 A. YES e ALL RIGHT YOU KNEW ASBESTOS WAS INHALED AND IT WAS THE DUST THAT WAS INHALED A. THAT'S CORRECT MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY 20 20 Q. DID YOU HAVE AN OPINION SIR IN 1961 AS TO WHETHER OR NOT ASBESTOS CAUSED CANCER OF THE LUNG A. IN 1961 I HAD SEEN SOME SCATTERED REPORTS OF THE OCCURRENCE OF LUNG CANCER IN PEOPLE WHO HAD THE DISEASE OF ASBESTOSIS BUT I DID NOT HAVE ANY EFFECT RELATIONSHIP BEFORE ME 2 WELL YOU'RE NOT A MEDICAL DOCTOR AND I'M NOT ASKING FOR AN EXPERT OPINION OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT IN TERMS OF DOES IT OR DID IT I JUST WANT 10 TO KNOW WHAT YOU BELIEVED WHETHER IT'S TRUE OR 11 NOT IS NOT FOR TO US WORRY ABOUT HERE TODAY I 12 JUST WANT TO KNOW WHAT YOU BELIEVED ABOUT 13 ASBESTOS 14 A. I WAS TAUGHT THAT YOU MUST CONTROL EXPOSURE 15 TO ASBESTOS FIBERS IN ORDER TO PREVENT 16 ASBESTOSIS AT THAT POINT IN 1961 I HAD NOT YET 17 BEEN TOLD THERE IS A EFFECT RELATIONSHIP 18 WITH LUNG CANCER FROM ASBESTOS 19 Q. BUT YOU WERE FAMILIAR WITH THE DISEASE 20 ASBESTOSIS IS THAT CORRECT 21 A. I WAS 22 23 2 ASBESTOSIS IS REGARDED BY EXPERTS IN YOUR FIELD AS AN AGENT SPECIFIC DISEASE THAT CAN ONLY 24 BE CAUSED BY ONE THING IT CAN ONLY BE CAUSED BY 25 ASBESTOS IS THAT CORRECT MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals 21 MORGAN - JACOBY A | 01 YES THAT'S CORRECT NOT LIKE PNEUMONIA OR WHATEVER ELSE YOU WANT TO THINK OF A. NO YOU CAN EXTRACT THE FIBERS FROM THE LUNGS AND IDENTIFY THEM Q. NOW IN THESE PROFESSIONAL JOURNALS THAT YOU HAD BEGUN RECEIVING YOU SAID THINK THINK BACK IN THE LATE 40'S DO YOU RECALL READING THROUGH ANY OF THOSE ANY NUMBER OF STUDIES THAT HAD BEEN 10 GOING ON INVOLVING ASBESTOS DISEASES SUCH * 11 AS ASBESTOSIS CANCER OF THE LONG MESOTHELIOMAC MESOTHELIOMAC 12 A. ASBESTOSIS 13 Q. DO YOU RECALL READING ANYTHING ABOUT LUNG 14 CANCER OR MESOTHELIOMA 19612- 15 A. THERE WERE FEW SCATTERED REPORTS OF THE 16 OCCURRENCOE F LUNG CANCER IN PEOPLE WITH. 17 ASBBBTOSTS . BUT I DIDN'T KNOW OF ANY ONGOING add in 18 EPIDEMIOLOGY STUDY TO ESTABLISH A RELATIONSHIP 19 RE YOUR OPINION 19I6 N 11 961 THAT TO 20 DISEASE ASBEST YOO U S HAI D S TO CONTROL 21 22 23 Q. OKAY AND AGAIN SIR YOU SAID YOU WERE 24 AWARE THAT THERE WAS OPERATIONS THAT WERE BEING 25 CONDUCTED THAT WERE DUSTY IS THAT CORRECT MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY 22 A. | Q. POTENTIALLY DUSTY YES POTENTIALLY DUSTY OUT WORK THE MECHANICAL PROCESS AND YOU WERE AWARE ALSO IN 1961 WHEN YOU STARTED YOUR EMPLOY AT DUPONT THAT THERE WERE PEOPLE AT DUPONT WHOSE JOB IT WAS WHO EARNED A LIVING BY WORKING WITH ASBESTOS EVERY DAY OF THE WEEK WERE YOU AWARE OF THAT SIR A. I GUESS I MIGHT HAVE ASSUMED THAT Q. DID YOU KNOW THAT THEY WERE INSULATORS 10 EMPLOYED BY THE DUPONT COMPANY 11 A. YES 12 Q. YOU KNOW WHAT INSULATORS DO FOR A LIVING 13 DON'T YOU THEY INSULATE 14 A THE REASON I HESITATE IN RESPONDING DIRECTLY 15 TO THAT QUESTION OF YOURS IS THAT MY WORK IN 16 DUPONT IN 1961 DID NOT PUT ME IN IMMEDIATE 17 CONTACT -- 18 Q. I UNDERSTAND I JUST REALLY -- AND I KNOW 19 I'M PUTTING YOU IN KIND OF A TOUGH SPOT SITTING 20 HERE IN 1986 AND GOING BACK TO YOUR STATE OF MIND 21 TWENTY YEARS AGO OKAY I DON'T WANT TO BE 22 UNFAIR TO YOU BUT WHAT I'M DRIVING AT IS NOT 23 WHAT YOU KNEW WHERE YOU HEARD IT FROM OR WHERE 24 YOU SAW IT WE'LL DISCUSS THAT LATER BUT I JUST 25 WANT TO KNOW WHAT YOUR ATTITUDES AND WHAT YOUR MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY OPINIONS WERE AT THE TIME THAT YOU STARTED WITH THE DUPONT COMPANY DO YOU UNDERSTAND ME A. YES I DO Q. OKAY AFTER YOU BEGAN YOUR EMPLOY WITH DUPONT DID YOU COME TO KNOW GORDON STOPPS 23 A. YES I DID Q. AND IF YOU CAN RECALL WHEN DID YOU FIRST COME TO KNOW HIM A. SOMETIME BETWEEN 1961 AND 1964 10 11 12 Q. OKAY A. I DON'T RECALL WHETHER HE WAS AT THE HASKELL LABORATORY WHEN I JOINED IN 1961. HE MAY HAVE 13 BEEN 14 Q. WHEN YOU CAME TO KNOW HIM WHAT WAS HIS JOB TITLE DO YOU REMEMBER 16 A. YEAH HE WAS WORKING -- THE WORK OF THE 17 LABORATORY WAS DIVIDED UP INTO SEVERAL SECTIONS 18 AND HE WAS IN THE SECTION THAT DEALT WITH 19 PHYSIOLOGICAL -- 20 Q. PHYSIOLOGY SECTION 21 A. YES 22 Q. IN FACT HE BECAME A HEAD OF THE PHYSIOLOGY 23 SECTION DID HE NOT IF YOU DON'T KNOW TELL ME 24 I DON'T WANT TO PUT WORDS IN YOUR MOUTH 25 A. I DON'T RECALL WHETHER HE WAS HEAD OF IT OR MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY 24 PAUL SMITH WAS HEAD OF IT Q. OKAY DID YOUR JOB REQUIRE YOU TO HAVE ANY PROFESSIONAL CONTACT WITH DR STOPPS IN THE EARLY 60'S LET'S SAY '61 WHEN YOU STARTED / +647 DID YOU WORK ON PROJECTS TOGETHER A. NO Q. DID YOU HAVE OCCASION -- HOW WAS IT THAT YOU CAME TO KNOW HIM A. WELL HASKELL LABORATORY WAS RATHER SMALL AT 10 THE TIME AND I GOT TO KNOW PEOPLE IN ALL THE 11 SECTIONS 12 Q. 13 A. SO -~ I'M SORRY I DID HAVE A FEW CONTACTS WITH THE 14 PHYSIOLOGY SECTION IN CONNECTION WITH MY WORK Q. 16 A. I SEE AND PERHAPS HE WAS THERE AT MEETINGS AND 17 DISCUSSIONS 18 Q. WERE YOU WORKING -- 19 A. I DON'T HAVE ANY DISTINCT RECOLLECTION OF 20 HOW I GOT TO KNOW HIM OR WHAT MY RELATIONSHIP WAS 21 22 23 WITH HIM Q. DID YOU GET TO KNOW HIM WELL DID YOU SIT AND TALK OR WAS IT JUST HELLO IN THE HALL 24 24 A. 25 Q. WELL HELLO IN THE HALL DURING THESE EARLY YEARS LET'S SAY +61 TO MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY '64 AT DUPONT DID ANY OF YOUR ASSIGNMENTS INVOLVE ASBESTOS CONTROL OF ASBESTOS DUST A. NO Q. YOU WERE WORKING ON THINGS OTHER THAN THAT A. YES Q. DID DR STOPPS EVER TELL YOU THAT HE ATTENDED THE NEW YORK ACADEMY OF SCIENCE IN OCTOBER OF 1964 A. YES I DO RECALL HIS RETURN FROM THAT 10 MEETING AND DISCUSSION 1 e AND THAT WAS OTHERWISE KNOWN AS THE SELIKOFF 12 CONFERENCE 13 A. YES NEW YORK ACADEMY OF SCIENCE 14 Q. AND DID HE TELL YOU ABOUT THE CONFERENCE 15 A. I HEARD ABOUT IT 16 MEETINGS STAFF IT WAS PROBABLY IN 17 Q. TO YOU SIR AT THAT TIME WHEN YOU HEARD 18 ABOUT IT WHAT WAS THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THAT 19 CONFERENCE 20 21 22 23 24 A. AT THAT TIME I WITHHELD JUDGMENT ON WHETHER THINGS WERE AS BAD AS DR SELIKOFF SEEMED TO THINK THAT THEY WERE IT WAS ONE PERSON WHO SPOKE OUT RATHER ONE UNIT OF INVESTIGATION AND USUALLY YOU WAIT FOR CONFIRMATION -- 25 Q. IT WAS EIGHTEEN THOUSAND PEOPLE THOUGH MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY WASN'T IT THAT WAS IN THE STUDY A. BUT THEY WERE THERE LISTENING TO DR 26 SELIKOFF Q. SO YOU WEREN'T CONVINCED YET A. NO NO I WASN'T Q. WERE YOU AWARE SIR BACK IN THAT DR SELIKOFF AND PROMINENT MEDICAL PEOPLE FROM AROUND THE COUNTRY STATED AT THIS CONFERENTC HAE T INSULATORS AND PEOPLE THAT ARE NOT BXPOSED + 10 DIRECTLY TO ASBESTOS IN THE CONTEXT HINING 11 IN THE IN THE FACTORY IN FACT WERE AT THONISH THONISH 12 OF MESOTAH NDEL MEISO OTMHA ELIOMA ASBESTOS 13 DISEASE 14 A. THAT WAS AN OPINION THAT HAD BEEN HELD FOR 15 MANY YEARS IF IT'S ASBESTOS IT DOESN'T MATTER MATTER 16 WHETHER IT'S IN MINE OR A FACTO THAT'SR USIY NG 17 ASBESTOS 18 Q. AND THAT WAS INDICIA N T MANE Y D OF THE 19 YO PMT YU OU HAD BEEN READING IN THE 20 21 A. SURD 22 Q. IS ONE OF THE COMMON BELIEFS DON'T FOCUS ON 23 THE FIBER FOCUS ON THE LUNG HOWEVER IT GOT 24 THERE IT GOT THERE LOOK AT WHAT IT DOES 25 A. I WOULD FOCUS ON THE FIBER AND THE CONTACT MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals 27 MORGAN - JACOBY OF THE LUNG REGARDLESS OF THE SOURCE OF THE FIBER Q. THE AMOUNT OF FIBER IS CERTAINLY OF - A. THE AMOUNT AND THE LENGTH OF EMPLOYMENT IN THE DUSTY AIR Q. BUT HAD SEEN THINGS WELL BEFORE 1964 INDIC THA AT T INI SULN ATOG RS PEOPLE WITH WITH INDIRECT EXPOSURES TO ASBESTOS HAD CONTRACTED LUNG CANCER MESOTHELIOMA MESOTHELIOMA AND add A I DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT MESOTHELIOMA AND - in in _ 10 2 11 LET'S CONFTNE TIT TO ASBESTOSTASBESSTOSTS AND LUNG 12 A. ASBESTOSTS ASBESTOSTS YES IN MY WORK IN THE IND NAUY 13 TO ATTEMPCOT NTE ROD L THE DUSTINESISN WAS 14 PLACES PLACES WHEREASBESTOS BEING USED FOR THE THE VERY 15 OR PURPOSE ASBESTOSIS 16 e DID YOU EVER HEAR OF MEREWETHER 17 A. YES 18 Q. HE WAS THE CHIEF INSPECTOR OF FACTORIES IN 19 ENGLAND IS THAT CORRECT 20 A. YES 21 Q. KIND OF AN INDUSTRIAL -- TOP DOG INDUSTRIAL 22 HYGIENIST IN THAT COUNTRY IS THAT CORRECT 23 A. YES 24 Q. 25 A. HE WROTE A PAPER IN 1935 DIDN'T 1930. IT WAS PUBLISHED IN '30 HE THE WORK MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN -- JACOBY 28 WAS IN '29 Q. AND IN THAT PAPER HE TALKS ABOUT LOW LEVELS OF ASBESTOS BUT FOR LONGER PERIODS OF TIME AND HE SAID OH MY GOD EVEN THOUGH THE EXPOSURE MAY BE VERY LIMITED IF YOU WORK A LITTLE LONGER YOU'RE GOING TO GET THE DISEASE IS THAT CORRECT OBJECTION MS ALITO I HAVE TO OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THESE QUESTIONS THEY'RE SUMMARIZING 10 REPORTS FOR THE DOCTOR AND IF YOU AGREE WITH EVERY 11 WORD THAT MR JACOBY IS STATING IN HIS 12 SUMMARIZATION THEN YOU CAN GO AHEAD AND ANSWER 13 THAT YOU AGREE BUT I WANT TO MAKE CLEAR THAT YOU 14 UNDERSTAND THAT A YES ANSWER TO THESE QUESTIONS 15 MEANS THAT YOU'RE AGREEING TO THESE LONG SUMMARIES 16 OF THE STUDIES 17 THE WITNESS WELL I WOULDN'T AGREE 18 WITH THE WORDING OF THE LAST STATEMENT THAT YOU 19 MADE BUT I AM AWARE OF DR MEREWETHER'S WORK AND 20 THE ASSOCIATION OF EXPOSURE TO ASBESTOS IN THE AIR 21 AND THE OCCURRENCE OF LUNG CANCER AND SOME KIND OF 22 A QUANTITATIVE RELATIONSHIP OF CONCENTRATIONS IN 23 THE AIR AND DURATION OF EXPOSURE 24 BY MR JACOBY 25 Q. AND EXCUSE ME WERE YOU AWARE OF ONE OF DR MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY 29 MEREWETHER'S CONCLUSIONS THAT LESSER EXPOSURE OVER A LONGER PERIOD OF TIME IS CAPABLE OF CAUSING DISEASE A. I THINK HE SAID HE DIDN'T KNOW AT THAT TIME Q. OKAY A. THAT'S MY RECOLLECTION OF IT Q. ALL RIGHT AND SMITH DID YOU EVER HEAR OF LYNCH AND A. GIVE ME THE FIRST NAMES 10 Q. JOE AND TED I DON'T KNOW I REALLY DON'T 1 KNOW WE'LL HAVE TO LOOK AND NOT TO PLAY GAMES 12 WITH YOU I'M TAKING NAMES FROM ATTACHMENTS THAT 13 YOU HAVE SENT TO OTHER PEOPLE WHERE THESE STUDIES 14 ARE INCLUDED 15 A. IS THAT SO 16 Q. YEAH AND WE'LL GO OVER THEM AGAIN 17 A. I DON'T REMEMBER EVERYTHING 18 Q. YEAH WELL THEY DID A STUDY NOT A STUDY 19 - IN 1935 THEY WROTE A CASE REPORT THAT THEY 20 FOUND TWO INCIDENCES OF LUNG CANCER WITH ASBESTOS 21 WORKERS AND FELT THERE WAS AN ASSOCIATION 22 A. THE REASON I ASK FOR THE FIRST NAME IS THAT 23 LATER I BECAME ACQUAINTED WITH JEREMIAH LYNCH 24 25 I BELIEVE IT IS JEREMIAH A. HE DID EXTENSIVE WORK IN ASBESTOS BUT I MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY THINK HIS WORK WAS MUCH LATER THAN THAT Q. NO THEY'RE NOT THE SAME INDIVIDUAL A. NO Q. ALL RIGHT WITHOUT BELABORING THE POINT YOU WERE AS EVIDENCED BY YOUR TESTIMONY THIS MORNING YOU WERE AWARE GENERALLY OF WHAT WAS HAPPENING IN THE LITERATURE AND THE STUDIES AND SO ON AND SO FORTH IS THAT CORRECT A. YES 10 Q. ALL RIGHT NOW I'D LIKE TO HAVE YOU LOOK 11 AT WHAT WE MARKED MR MORGAN AS P MORGAN 12 OKAY 13 A. OH I SEE I'D LIKE TO GET A DRINK OF 14 WATER 15 16 MR JACOBY OKAY FINE BRIEF RECESS 17 18 19 20 21 BY MR JACOBY Q. BEFORE WE GET TO THAT I WANTED TO COMPLETE ANOTHER THOUGHT YOU SAID YOU HEARD ABOUT DR STOPPS TRIP TO THE NEW YORK ACADEMY CONFERENCES AND SO ON DID HE EVER TALK TO YOU DIRECTLY ABOUT 22 IT 23 24 25 A. I DON'T REMEMBER Q. WHAT DID YOU HEAR ABOUT THE TRIP AT THESE CONFERENCES OR MEETINGS THAT YOU ATTENDED MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN ~ - JACOBY 31 A. WELL I HEARD A SUMMARY OF THE PROCEEDINGS THAT HAD BEEN DISCUSSED THE RECORDING OF THE NUMBER OF CASES OF DISEASES INCLUDED AT THAT TIME SOME LUNG CANCER Q. NOW LOOKING AT THIS DOCUMENT SIR I DIRECT YOU - THIS IS A LETTER THAT APPARENTLY WAS SENT FROM DR STOPPS TO A J.R. MC CLEAN IN THE MAYDOWN WORKS IN LONDONDERRY IS THAT CORRECT A. YES 10 Q. 11 A. YOU ARE NOTED AS A CARBON COPY RECIPIENT YES 12 Q. IN THE SECOND PARAGRAPH SIR IF I CAN 13 DIRECT YOUR ATTENTION THERE WHERE IT SAYS THERE 14 ARE MANY FACETS TO THIS SUBJECT BUT THE TWO MOST IMPORTANT ARE THE QUESTIONS WHAT ARE THE RISKS TO 16 MEN WHO ARE EXPOSED TO ASBESTOS PRIOR TO THE 17 RECOGNITION OF THE POSSIBLE RISK OF CANCER 18 NOW WAS THERE A RECOGNITION SIR AS FAR AS 19 YOU WERE CONCERNED THAT PEOPLE EXPOSED TO 20 ASBESTOS HAD A RISK OF GETTING CANCER OF THE LUNG 21 A. MY RECOLLECTION IS THAT THE RISK WAS TO GETTING ASBESTOSIS AND THE POSSIBILITY OF 23 GETTING LUNG CANCER BECAUSE OF ASBESTOS INHALATION 24 HAD SIMPLY NOT YET BEEN ESTABLISHED 25 Q. OKAY BUT YOU WERE AWARE THAT THERE WAS MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY 32 DISCUSSIONS THAT THERE MAY BE A CAUSAL RELATIONSHIP A. I'VE MENTIONED EARLIER THAT THERE WERE ISOLATED REPORTS OF CASES LIMIT OF IT THAT WAS ABOUT THE Q. AND -- A. SOME OF THEM WERE QUITE EARLY BUT THEY DID NOT STIR UP A LOT OF CONCERN BECAUSE LUNG CANCER OCCURS IN ALL LEVELS OF THE POPULATION AND IF A 10 PERSON WHO HAD ACQUIRED ASBESTOSIS ALSO HAD LUNG 11 CANCER IT DID NOT IMMEDIATELY ESTABLISH A 12 RELATIONSHIP 13 Q. I UNDERSTAND MY QUESTION WAS JUST THAT THE 14 RELATIONSHIP WAS BEING DISCUSSED IN THE MEDICAL 15 AND SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITY 16 A. IT PROBABLY WAS YES 17 Q. SIR RIGHT AFTER WHAT I JUST READ TO YOU 18 AGAIN IN THE SECOND PARAGRAPH APPARENTLY DR 19 STOPPS SECOND CONCERN IS WHAT STEPS SHOULD BE 20 TAKEN TO PROTECT THE MEN WHO ARE NOW POTENTIALLY 21 EXPOSED TO ASBESTOS IN 23 1965 WHEN THIS LETTE WARS 24 EMPLOYEES WERE EXPOSED TO ASBESTOS AND THE THE 25 POTENTIAL FOR DISEASE BASED UPON EVERYTHING THAT MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY 33 TH ERA E THAT T PIME ? A. SAY THAT YES THE CAUSES OF OCCUPATIONAL DISEASE I HAD A CONCERN THAT WAS MY LINE OF WORK MY DUTIES DID NOT REQUIRE THAT I IMMEDIATELY RESPOND TO SOMETHING LIKE THIS Q. DID YOU HAVE ANY IDEA AT THAT TIME SIR HOW MUCH ASBESTOS WAS REING USED BY DUPONT A. NO 10 Q. DR STOPPS SAYS IN THE FIRST PARAGRAPH AS 11 YOU CORRECTLY SUSPECT A CONSIDERABLE AMOUNT OF 12 ASBESTOS IS USED IN DUPONT PLANTS LARGELY IN THE 13 FORM OF PIPE LAGGING DO YOU SEE THAT 14 A. 15 2 YES I SEE THAT WHERE YOU AWARE OF IT AT THAT TIME THAT 16 DUPONT WAS USING A LARGE AMOUNT 17 A. I ASSUME THAT WAS CORRECT IF HE SAID IT WAS 18 Q. 19 A. THAT WASN'T REVELATORY AS FAR AS --~ I HAD NOT MADE AN INVESTIGATION TO DETERMINE 20 21 22 HOW MUCH NO IT WAS NOT A SURPRISE Q. NOW SIR ON THE LAST PARAGRAPH OF THIS FIRST PAGE DR STOPPS TALKS ABOUT A STUDY THAT 23 WILL BE DONE OF MEDICAL RECORDS DO YOU SEE THAT 24 SIR 25 A. IN LINE WITH THEIR SUGGESTION WE HOPE TO MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY 34 START A STUDY OF THE HEALTH AND OF PIPE COVERERS COMPARED WITH THE HEALTH OF ASBESTOS EXSPOSED GROUP WITHIN THE NEXT FEW WEEKS Q. WERE YOU AWARE THAT DR STOPPS IN 1965 HAD REQUESTED THAT RECORDS OF FIFTY PIPE COVERERS BE PULLED MEDICAL RECORDS FOR REVIEW A. I HAD NO KNOWLEDGE OF HIS STEPS THAT HE TOOK IN HIS INVESTIGATION IT WAS INDEPENDENT OF MY WORK AT THAT TIME 10 Q. AND YOU WERE NOT INVOLVED DIRECTLY WITH 1 ASBESTOS AT THIS TIME 12 A. AT THAT TIME NO 13 Q. DO YOU KNOW SIR WHY YOU WOULD HAVE 14 RECEIVED A COPY OF THIS LETTER 15 A. IN MY PREVIOUS ANSWERS TO YOU I'VE INDICATED 16 TO YOU THAT I HAD CONSIDERABLE EXPERIENCE IN THE 17 OCCUPATIONAL DISEASE ASBESTOSIS AND ITS 18 PREVENTION 19 Q. 20 A. RIGHT AND STOPPS RECOGNIZED THAT AND SOMETIMES 21 DISCUSSED THINGS AND INFORMED ME OF WHAT WAS GOING 22 ON 23 Q. WHAT DID HE INFORM YOU WHAT DID HE TELL 24 YOU 25 A. THIS LETTER FOR EXAMPLE IS AN EXAMPLE MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY Q. THIS IS THE WAY HE WOULD INFORM YOU HE WOULD COPY YOU ON A LETTER A. YES Q. SO WITHOUT BELABORING BELABORING POINT DISCUSSED WITH STOPPS ATPOINT YOUR KNOWLEDGE OF ASBESTOS IN 1965 AND WHAT IT COULD CAUSE AND SO ON AND SO FORTIHS THAT CORRECT A. YES Q. YOU ALSO KNEW THATPEOPLE AT 10 DUPONT WHO WERE EXPOSED DIRECTLY TOASBESTOST 11 A. YES 12 Q. NOW IF YOU'LL TURN THE PAGE SIR THE FIRST 13 PARAGRAPH OF THE SECOND PAGE TALKS ABOUT DUST 14 CONTROL IS THAT CORRECT 15 A. LET ME SEE 16 Q. TAKE WHATEVER TIME YOU NEED TO READ IT 17 OVER 18 19 20 21 A. THIS IS THE TYPE OF THING THAT STOPPS MAY HAVE DISCUSSED WITH ME BECAUSE THESE ARE SOME OF THE STEPS THAT WE TOOK TO CONTROL IT IN THE SHIPYARDS 22 Q. WOULD I BE CORRECT TO SAY THAT YOUR END OF 23 THINGS AS AN INDUSTRIAL HYGIENIST WAS DUST 24 CONTROL 25 A. IT WOULD INCLUDE DUST CONTROL YES. MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY 36 Q. YOU WEREN'T INVOLVED IN THE MEDICAL PART OF THINGS -- A. NO Q. -- BUT THE INDUSTRIAL HYGIENE PART OF THINGS A. CORRECT Q. TO MAKE THIS PLACE SAFE WOULD THAT BE CORRECT SIR A. YES 10 Q. AND YOU RECOGNIZED -- DID YOU AGREE WITH DR 11 STOPPS STATEMENT THAT THE CONTROL OF THE DISEASE 12 LIES IN THE CONTROL OF DUST 13 A. I THINK I INDICATED THAT WHEN I TOLD YOU 14 THAT HE PROBABLY DISCUSSED THIS WITH ME YES 15 Q. NOW HE TALKS THE LAST COUPLE OF SENTENCES 16 ON THAT PARAGRAPH HE TALKS ABOUT REDUCING THE 17 DUST EXPOSURE OF WORKERS WITH ASBESTOS AND HE 18 TALKS ABOUT A COUPLE OF WAYS THAT CAN BE DONE 19 20 ONE THAT SUITABLE EXHAUST VENTILATING SYSTEMS WHERE ASBESTOS IS HANDLED AND ANOTHER IS 21 THE USE OF DUST RESPIRATORS WHERE EXHAUST 22 VENTILATION IS NOT PRACTICAL AS IS OFTEN THE CASE 23 IN HANDLING INSULATION IN THE PLANT 24 DO YOU SEE IT SIR A. YES MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals 37 MORGAN - JACOBY Q. WERE PEOPLE AT DUPONT IN 1965 WHO WORKED WITH ASBESTOS ON A DAILY BASIS TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE SIR GIVEN RESPIRATORS TO WEAR A. I WAS NOT DIRECTLY IN TOUCH WITH WHAT PREVENTIVE MEASURES WERE BEING USED IN VARIOUS PLANTS IN DUPONT 10 1 12 13 14 Q. I'M NOT TRYING TO MAKE YOU CULPABLE SIR I JUST WANT TO KNOW WHAT YOU KNEW A. I'M JUST TRYING TO TELL YOU THE LIMIT OF MY KNOWLEDGE IF I WERE TO MAKE A PLANT SURVEY SPECIFICALLY TO DETERMINE WHAT PROTECTION WAS BEING AFFORDED AGAINST DUST INHALATION I WOULD HAVE INQUIRED INTO THOSE THINGS IT HAD NOT FALLEN INTO MY -~ 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 Q. AT THE PRESENT TIME LET'S LOOK AT IT IN RETROSPECT FOR A MINUTE LET'S ASSUME THERE'S A MAN NAMED BILL MILLISON WHO STARTED HIS EMPLOY AT THE CHAMBERS WORKS IN 1951 AS AN INSULATOR AND WORKED WITH ASBESTOS ON A DAILY BASIS IN YOUR OPINION SIR IN 1965 BASED UPON WHAT YOU KNEW AND BASED UPON THIS DOCUMENT SHOULD HE HAVE BEEN WEARING A RESPIRATOR OR GIVEN A RESPIRATOR WHEN HE WORKED WITH ASBESTOS DUST 24 OBJECTION MS ALITO I HAVE TO OBJECT TO THE MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals 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rofessionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY 39 BY MR JACOBY 2 I APPRECIATE YOU MAY NOT RATHER COMMENT ON IT BUT MY QUESTION TO YOU SIR IS SHOULD HE HAVE BEEN PROTECTED OBJECTION MS ALITO CAN YOU CLARIFY -- I HAVE TO ADD AN ADDITIONAL OBJECTION TO THAT QUESTION SHOULD HE HAVE BEEN PROTECTED PROTECTED IN WHAT WAY MR JACOBY FROM ASBESTOS DUST THE WITNESS I'VE INDICATED EARLIER THAT ACCORDING TO MY KNOWLEDGE THAT THERE WAS A RISK OF GETTING ASBESTOSIS SERIOUS LUNG DISEASE IF ONE WORKED IN DUST CONTAINING ASBESTOS WITHOUT ADEQUATE PROTECTION THE SAME WOULD APPLY TO THE 16 MAN YOU JUST NAMED AS TO ANY OTHER WORKER 17 BY MR JACOBY 18 19 20 2 I SEE SO OKAY LET'S NOT BELABOR IT IN POINT OF FACT SIR DO YOU HAVE PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE AS TO WHEN RESPIRATORS WERE GIVEN OUT TO 21 PEOPLE THAT WORKED WITH OR AROUND ASBESTOS DUST 22 A. IN THE DUPONT COMPANY 23 Q. YES SIR 24 A 25 Q. NO I DO NOT NOW I'D LIKE TO REFER YOUR ATTENTION TO P MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY 40 MORGAN AND IT'S A DOCUMENT DATED NOVEMBER THE 7TH OF 1966 DO YOU SEE THAT SIR A YES I HAVE THAT HERE FROM DARBY TO -- Q. WHO WAS R.A. DARBY A. I DON'T REMEMBER HIM SPECIFICALLY HIS ADDRESS IS GIVEN AS THE EXPERIMENT STATION FROM TIME TO TIME I DEALT WITH SEVERAL PEOPLE THERE Q. NOW SIR FROM THE TIME OF THE FIRST DOCUMENT THAT YOU RECEIVED NOVEMBER THE 29TH 10 1965 UNTIL NOVEMBER THE 7TH 1966 APPROXIMATELY 11 A YEAR ELAPSED IS THAT CORRECT A LITTLE LESS 12 THAN A YEAR A COUPLE WEEKS LESS THAN A YEAR 13 A. YES 14 Q. HAD YOU INVOLVED YOURSELF DURING THIS YEAR PERIOD OF TIME NOVEMBER '65 THROUGH 16 NOVEMBER '66 WITH THE CONSEQUENCES OF EXPOSURE TO 17 ASBESTOS DUST 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. I HAVE DIFFICULTY RECALLING THE EXTENT OF MY INVOLVEMENT IT WAS IN LINE WITH MY DUTIES AT HASKELL LABORATORY TO RECEIVE INQUIRIES FROM PEOPLE THROUGHOUT THE COMPANY IN DIFFERENT DEPARTMENTS AND PLANTS SOME OF THEM - WELL THEY NEARLY ALL DEALT WITH POTENTIAL HEALTH PROBLEMS AND ASBESTOS COULD HAVE BEEN AMONG THOSE THAT I WAS HANDLING MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY 1 Q. ALL RIGHT SIR IF YOU'LL TAKE A MINUTE AND REVIEW THIS DOCUMENT A. I'VE FINISH READING IT Q. NOW SIR AM I CORRECT THAT THIS DOCUMENT ADDRESSED TO YOU SPEAKS OF A VISIT THAT YOU MADE ON NOVEMBER 3RD IS THAT CORRECT A. IT SPEAKS OF IT UNTIL I READ THIS I HAD NO RECOLLECTION OF THAT VISIT Q. ALL RIGHT NOW IT'S ENTITLED TOXICITY OF 10 ASBESTOS IS THAT CORRECT 11 A. YES 12 Q. WHAT DOES TOXICITY MEAN 13 A. WELL THAT'S A TITLE CHOSEN BY MR DARBY AND 14 IT MEANS THE EXERTION OF A TOXIC EFFECT 15 Q. 16 A. OKAY HARMFUL 17 Q 18 A. POISONOUS TO THE BODY IT'S ANOTHER WAY OF STATING IT 19 Q. NOW IN THIS DISCUSSION SIR HE THANKS YOU 20 FOR ATTENDING AND SO ON AND CAN YOU RECALL AS 21 YOU SIT HERE TODAY WHAT YOU TALKED ABOUT AT THIS 22 VISIT 23 A. HE DISCUSSED A PROCESS THAT WAS UNDER 24 CONSIDERATION FOR EXTRUDING SOME MATERIAL I ASSUME ALTHOUGH I DON'T HAVE ANY DEFINITE MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY RECOLLECTION THAT IT WAS SOME FORM OF PLASTIC MATERIAL INTO WHICH ASBESTOS HAD BEEN MIXED FOR SOME PURPOSE OR OTHER Q. A. I SEE AND MY OPINION WAS ASKED ON THE POTENTIAL HAZARDS IN THAT OPERATION Q. IF YOU KNOW WHY WAS IT YOU THAT WENT DOWN TO SPEAK TO THEM -- MR DARBY'S GROUP A. BECAUSE I WAS AN INDUSTRIAL HYGIENIST ON THE 10 STAFF OF HASKELL LABORATORY AND THAT'S WHERE THEY 11 WOULD TURN TO FOR ADVICE ON A MATTER LIKE THIS 12 Q. ON A MATTER LIKE ASBESTOS WHEN YOU SAY A 13 MATTER LIKE THIS WHAT DO YOU MEAN 14 A. TOXIC EFFECTS OF CHEMICALS 15 2 AGENTS 16 A. YEAH ANY AGENTS 17 Q. TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE SIR AT THIS TIME WHEN 18 YOU WENT DOWN ON NOVEMBER 3RD 1966 AND GAVE THIS 19 TALK WERE THERE OTHERS IN THE DUPONT COMPANY MORE 20 INVOLVED WITH THE ASBESTOS SITUATION 21 A. I DON'T KNOW 22 Q. WOULD DR STOPPS HAVE BEEN MORE INVOLVED 23 WITH THE ASBESTOS SITUATION IF YOU KNOW 24 A. MY RECOLLECTION IS THAT HE WAS WHEN HE 25 CAME BACK FROM THE NEW YORK CONFERENCE HE BEGAN TO MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN ~ JACOBY 43 DEVOTE LOTS OF TIME TO IT 2 ALL RIGHT OBJECTION MS ALITO I HAVE TO BELATEDLY OBJECT TO THE LAST QUESTION CHARACTERIZING MR MORGAN'S VISIT AS A TALK MR JACOBY I AGREE WHATEVER YOU WANT TO CALL IT YOU CAN CALL IT VISIT THE WITNESS DISCUSSION 10 BY MR JACOBY 11 Q. INTERFACE IS THAT WHAT THEY SAY TODAY 12 SIR LOOKING AT PARAGRAPH THREE OF THIS 13 MEMORANDUM WHERE IT BEGINS IN VIEW OF YOUR 14 COMMENTS DO YOU SEE THAT SIR 15 A. YES I SEE IT 16 2 IT SAYS WE WILL NOT PURCHASE OR WORK WITH 17 CROCIDOLITE A FORM OF ASBESTOS PENDING FURTHER 18 CLASSIFICATION OF THIS MATERIAL 19 DO YOU RECALL DISCUSSING CROCIDOLITE A FORM 20 OF ASBESTOS 21 A. I DON'T RECALL DISCUSSING IT BUT SINCE HE 22 SAYS WHAT HE DOES IN THIS PARAGRAPH I ASSUME THAT 23 WE DID DISCUSS IT 24 Q. 25 IT CAN YOU REMEMBER WHAT YOU DISCUSSED ABOUT MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY 44 A. BUT I THE DON'T EVEN CONFERENCE REMEMBER WHAT HE LOOKED LIKE IN NEW YORK DID RAISE SOME WARNINGS ABOUT CROCIDOLITE THAT WAS THE FIRST THAT I KNEW OF ANY PECULIAR PROPERTIES ASCRIBABLE TO CROCIDOLITE PERHAPS THAT WAS A BASIS OF SOME DISCUSSION Q. CROCIDOLITE IS A FORM OF ASBESTOS CORRECT IS THAT C YES 10 2 11 A. A TYPE OF FIBER YES 12 13 14 15 Q. AND HAD YOU SEEN IN 1966 ANY STUDIES THAT WERE DONE THAT WOULD SUGGEST A CONNECTION BETWEEN CROCIDOLITE ASBESTOS AND MESOTHELIOMA A. I DON'T RECALL THAT I HAD 16 17 18 19 20 Q. THE REASON I SAY THAT TO YOU AGAIN NOT TO TRY TO DECEIVE YOU BUT YOU REFER TO THAT STUDY ON SEVERAL OCCASIONS ON YOUR OTHER DOCUMENTS A. IS THAT SO I'D SIMPLY SAY I DON'T REMEMBER 21 22 23 24 25 Q. ALL RIGHT THAT'S ACCEPTABLE YOU DON'T REMEMBER AS YOU SIT HERE TODAY WHETHER OR NOT YOU SUGGESTED THAT CROCIDOLITE NOT BE USED A. . THIS MENTION IN HIS LETTER OF DISCUSSION OF CROCIDOLITE IT IS NEWS TO ME I DIDN'T HAVE ANY MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY 45 DEFINITE RECOLLECTION OF IT UNTIL I READ THAT | Q. TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE SIR DID DUPONT STOP PURCHASING CROCIDOLITE ASBESTOS PRODUCTS A. I DON'T KNOW Q. TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE DID YOU EVER RECOMMEND THAT CROCIDOLITE ASBESTOS PRODUCTS NO LONGER BE USED A. I DON'T REMEMBER Q. AND YOU DON'T REMEMBER WHETHER OR NOT YOU 10 TOLD MR DARBY TO STOP USING CROCIDOLITE ASBESTOS il PRODUCTS 12 OBJECTION MS ALITO OBJECTION ASKED AND ANSWERED BY MR JACOBY Q. 17 YOU DON'T HAVE TO ANSWER THAT MR MORGAN NOW ON PARAGRAPH FOUR SIR TO YOUR 18 KNOWLEDGE WAS ANY EMPLOYEE OF DUPONT TOLD THAT 19 THERE WAS A SUSPICION THAT ONE TYPE OF ASBESTOS 20 FIBER WAS MORE POTENTIALLY HARMFUL THAN OTHER 21 TYPES OF ASBESTOS FIBER 22 A. THEY VERY DEFINITELY WERE I CAN'T TELL YOU 23 THE DATE ON WHICH IT WAS DONE OR TO WHOM IT WAS 24 DONE 25 Q. CAN YOU GIVE ME A ROUGH APPROXIMATION OF MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY 46 TIME | A. I KNOW FOR A FACT THAT IN 1970 A COMPANY CONFERENCE WAS HELD FOR THE PURPOSE OF DISSEMINATING INFORMATION Q. A. WE'LL GET THERE ALL RIGHT AND CROCIDOLITE WAS MENTIONED Q. ALL RIGHT PRIOR BACK IN '66 -- A. I DON'T KNOW Q. YOU DON'T KNOW WHETHER OR NOT ANY EMPLOYEE 10 OF DUPONT WAS TOLD THAT THERE WAS A SUSPICION 11 AMONG HIGHER LET'S SAY THAT IT MAY BE MORE 12 DANGEROUS THAN OTHER FIBERS 13 A. IN ANSWERING THAT I'M NOT GOING TO SAY I 14 DON'T REMEMBER I'M GOING TO SAY I HAD NO REASON 15 TO KNOW I WAS NOT IN DIRECT CONTACT WITH THE 16 PEOPLE WHO WERE WORKING WITH ASBESTOS 17 Q. SHOULD THEY HAVE BEEN TOLD 18 OBJECTION 19 MS ALITO OBJECTION ON THE GROUNDS 20 THAT IT CALLS FOR AN EXPERT OPINION 21 22 22 MR JACOBY WELL I DON'T THINK THAT IT REQUIRES AN EXPERT OPINION THE MAN HAD A HIGH 23 JOB CLASSIFICATION A HIGH JOB TITLE WITH DUPONT 24 AND I'M JUST ASKING HIM IF THEY SHOULD HAVE BEEN 25 TOLD IT'S NOT SUBJECT TO AN EXPERT WITNESS -- MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY 47 MS ALITO I MAINTAIN MY OBJECTION AND I ALSO OBJECT ON THE GROUND THAT IT'S NOT SPECIFIC ENOUGH YOU'RE USING THE TERM EMPLOYEE THERE ARE THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF DUPONT EMPLOYEES MR JACOBY I'LL REPHRASE THE QUESTION BY MR JACOBY Q. IF AN INDIVIDUAL WERE WORKING WITH ASBESTOS 10 AS AN INSULATOR ON A DAILY BASIS IN 1966 BASED 11 UPON YOUR DISCUSSIONS WITH MR DARBY AND 12 EVERYTHING ELSE THAT YOU KNEW EVERYTHING ELSE 13 THAT WAS IN YOUR HEAD IN 1966 WOULD YOU HAVE TOLD 14 THAT MAN THAT HE WAS WORKING WITH A DANGEROUS 15 SUBSTANCE 16 OBJECTION 17 MS ALITO SAME OBJECTION BUT YOU 18 CAN ANSWER THE QUESTION MR MORGAN 19 THE WITNESS I DON'T RECALL THE DATE 20 AT WHICH I BECAME CONVINCED THAT CROCIDOLITE WAS 21 INDEED A DISTINCT FORM OF ASBESTOS WHICH WAS MORE 22 DANGEROUS THAN OTHER FORMS 23 BY MR JACOBY 24 Q. I DON'T MEAN TO ARGUE WITH YOU SIR BUT I 25 HAVE THIS DOCUMENT AND I WANT TO GET TO THE BOTTOM MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY 48 OF IT THIS MAN IS SAYING TO YOU BASED ON YOUR COMMENTS OKAY IN VIEW OF YOUR COMMENTS WE HAD NOT PURCHASED OR WORKED WITH CROCIDOLITE AND I AM ASSUMING THAT YOU MADE SOME COMMENT SAYING DON'T PURCHASE OR WORK WITH CROCIDOLITE OR SOMETHING HAVING TO DO WITH CROCIDOLITE AND ALL I WANT TO KNOW IS WHAT YOUR FEELINGS ABOUT CROCIDOLITE WERE THAT PROMPTED THIS MAN TO SAY THIS TO YOU 10 OBJECTION 11 MS ALITO OBJECTION ON THE GROUND 12 THAT MR MORGAN HAS ALREADY TESTIFIED THAT HE HAS 13 NO INDEPENDENT RECOLLECTION OF WHAT HAPPENED AT 14 THE TIME THAT THIS DOCUMENT WAS WRITTEN HE 15 HASN'T DISPUTED THE AUTHENTICITY OF THE DOCUMENT 16 HE'S STATED THAT HE DOESN'T RECALL SPECIFICALLY 17 AND INDEPENDENTLY FROM THE DOCUMENT WHAT WENT ON 18 BY MR JACOBY 19 e IS THAT CORRECT SIR 20 A. THAT'S CORRECT AND I MIGHT ADD THAT IN 21 DISCUSSING POTENTIAL HEALTH RISKS WITH DUPONT 22 23 24 PEOPLE WHO CAME TO US FOR ADVICE WE WOULD FREQUENTLY TAKE THE CONSERVATIVE APPROACH AND AT THAT TIME IN 1966 IN MY MIND THAT MAY HAVE BEEN -- 25 THERE ARE SUSPICIONS ABOUT CROCIDOLITE WE BETTER MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY 49 BE CAREFUL IN ORDER TO BE COMPLETELY SAFE OR I MAY HAVE TAKEN SOME OTHER ATTITUDE THAT I'M THOROUGHLY CONVINCED I DON'T RECALL THE TIMING Q. ALL RIGHT SO LET'S GO ON THE WORDS WHEN HE SAID TO YOU WE WILL NOT PURCHASE OR WORK WITH THE CROCIDOLITE FORM OF ASBESTOS PENDING FURTHER CLASSIFICATION OF THIS MATERIAL DID YOU WRITE HIM BACK ANYTHING SAYING THAT'S TOO STRONG THAT'S NOT WHEN I SAID YOU MISUNDERSTOOD OR ANYTHING LIKE 10 THAT 11 A. I WOULD NOT HAVE DONE THAT 12 Q. YOU COULD LIVE WITH HIS STATEMENT TO YOU WE 13 WILL NOT PURCHASE OR WORK WITH THE CROCIDOLITE 14 FORM 15 A. YES 16 Q. NOW SIR IN PARAGRAPH FOUR IT SAYS -- LET 17 ME GIVE YOU A CHANCE TO LOOK IT OVER 18 A. I SEE IT 19 e HASKELL LABORATORY WILL KEEP US INFORMED OF 20 FUTURE DEVELOPMENTS IN THEIR STUDY OF THE 21 TOXICOLOGY OF ASBESTOS THE FIRST SENTENCE THERE 22 IN FACT WAS HASKELL LABORATORY CONDUCTING 23 STUDIES ON THE TOXICOLOGY OF ASBESTOS 24 25 A. I CAN'T RECALL WHAT SPECIFICALLY WAS BEING DONE AT THAT DATE STOPPS DIDN'T SUDDENLY LOSE MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - - JACOBY ALL INTEREST IN IT I KNOW THAT BUT I DON'T KNOW THE EXTENT OF THE PLANS THAT WERE GOING ON DEVELOPING THE STUDY 50 2 ALL RIGHT NOW SIR THE NEXT TO THE LAST PARAGRAPH ON PAGE TWO IN RECALLING OUR DISCUSSION - A. YES 10 11 12 Q. NOW THAT'S A DISCUSSION BASICALLY SIR WOULD YOU AGREE WITH ME OF THESE TYPES OF ASBESTOS DISEASE ASBESTOSIS CANCER OF THE LUNG AND MESOTHELIOMA A. YES 13 Q. NOW WHEN MR DARBY SAYS TO YOU ON NOVEMBER 14 THE 7TH 1966 IN RECALLING OUR DISCUSSION I 15 16 17 BELIEVE YOU MENTIONED -- AND I'M NOT GOING TO READ THE REST OF IT INTO THE RECORD IT SAYS WHAT IT SAYS DID YOU TELL HIM THESE THINGS 18 19 A. I ASSUME FROM WHAT HE HAS WRITTEN HERE THAT WE DID MENTION IN THE COURSE OF OUR DISCUSSING 20 THESE THINGS 21 22 23 Q. DID YOU MENTION IN THE COURSE OF YOUR DISCUSSION THAT ASBESTOSIS CAN LEAD TO CANCER IN LOWER LOBES OF THE LUNG 24 A. I DON'T KNOW THAT I DID IT WAS A 25 POSSIBILITY THAT WAS RECOGNIZED AT THAT TIME MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY 51 2 AND DO YOU RECALL IF YOU DISCUSSED THE DISEASE MESOTHELIOMA A. I HAVE NO DISTINCT RECOLLECTION THAT I DID Q. 50 IN NOVEMBER OF 1966 ON THE 3RD OF NOVEMBER YOU WENT TO MR DARBY WHEREVER HE WAS YOU HAD A DISCUSSION WITH HIM AND AM I CORRECT THAT YOU DON'T RECALL IF ALL OF THE THINGS THAT WE'VE NOW DISCUSSED IN THIS MEMORANDUM WERE IN FACT DISCUSSED 10 A. I DON'T LIKE TO ANSWER THAT QUESTION IN THE 11 FORM IN WHICH YOU'VE GIVEN IT TO ME I DON'T 12 DOUBT THAT MR DARBY GAVE A TRUE RECOLLECTION OF 13 -- A TRUE DESCRIPTION ACCORDING TO HIS 14 RECOLLECTION OF WHAT WAS DISCUSSED I WOULDN'T 15 QUIBBLE WITH HIS WORDS 16 Q. BUT IN TERMS OF AN INDEPENDENT RECOLLECTION 17 TODAY REALLY WHAT I'M GETTING AT IS CHAPTER AND 18 VERSE DO YOU REMEMBER THE ROOM YOU WERE IN DO 19 YOU REMEMBER THE TIME OF DAY DO YOU REMEMBER 20 WHERE YOU WERE SITTING I'M TRYING TO FIND OUT WHAT YOU REMEMBER A. I DO NOT REMEMBER THOSE THINGS Q. SIR IS THIS SECOND NEXT TO THE LAST PARAGRAPH ON PAGE TWO WOULD THAT BE AN ACCURATE REFLECTION OF WHAT YOU BELIEVED ASBESTOS COULD DO MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY 52 IN A. 1966 | THAT DOES NOT ESTABLISH ANY CERTAINTY IN MY MIND ABOUT ANY OF THESE EFFECTS OCCURRING I SIMPLY ASSUMED FROM READING IT THAT WE DID DISCUSS THESE THINGS THEY CERTAINLY HAD COME UP IN TERMS OF THAT NEW YORK CONFERENCE AND HAD BEEN WIDELY DISCUSSED ELSEWHERE AFTER THAT Q. IT WAS DISCUSSED IN ASSOCIATION WITH CROCIDOLITE OR WAS IT A SEPARATE IF YOU KNOW IF 10 YOU REMEMBER DISCUSSION 11 A. I DON'T REMEMBER WHETHER IT WAS SEPARATE 12 Q. AND AT THIS TIME SIR IN 1966 DO YOU KNOW 13 IN TERMS OF QUANTITY HOW MUCH ASBESTOS WAS BEING 14 PURCHASED BY THE DUPONT COMPANY 15 A. NO 16 Q. OKAY ONWARD I'D LIKE TO SHOW YOU WHAT'S 17 BEEN MARKED P MORGAN AND IT'S A PAGE 18 DOCUMENT SIR IT'S DATED JANUARY THE 10TH 19 1968. IT PURPORTS TO BE FROM DR STOPPS TO A MR 20 KENNETH KEUPER AND YOU ARE NOTED AS A CARBON COPY 21 RECIPIENT DO YOU SEE THAT 22 A. YES 23 Q. DO YOU AGREE WITH HIS STATEMENT SIR IN THE 24 THIRD PARAGRAPH A. LET ME READ THAT MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY 53 Q. I'M SORRY GO AHEAD READ THE WHOLE DOCUMENT NOT ONLY THE THIRD PARAGRAPH A. I'M FINISHED READING IT Q. OKAY NOW IN THE FIRST PARAGRAPH SIR IT STATES I WAS PLEASED TO HEAR FROM YOU YESTERDAY THAT CONSIDERATION IS BEING GIVEN TO MONITORING OF THE DUST LEVELS AT TWENTY CONSTRUCTION SITES AROUND THE COUNTRY DID YOU BELIEVE THAT IT WAS APPROPRIATE AT 10 THAT TIME TO BEGIN DUST MONITORING FOR ASBESTOS 11 DUST 12 A. I'M NOT FAMILIAR WITH THAT SUGGESTION THAT 13 IT BE DONE AND I CERTAINLY WOULD NOT HAVE OPPOSED 14 IT IF I HAD EVER BEEN ASKED ABOUT IT 15 Q. FOR HOW LONG IF YOU CAN TELL ME PRIOR TO 16 JANUARY 10TH 1968 WERE YOU OF THE OPINION THAT 17 MONITORING FOR DUST WAS SOMETHING THAT SHOULD HAVE 18 BEEN DONE 19 OBJECTION 20 MS ALITO I OBJECT TO THE FORM OF 21 THAT QUESTION HE HASN'T STATED THAT HE BELIEVED 22 23 PRIOR TO '68 THAT THERE SHOULD HAVE BEEN DUST MONITORING 24 MR JACOBY WELL WE'LL ASK THAT 25 QUESTION FIRST MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY 54 BY MR JACOBY Q. TN U BELIEVE PRIOR 1968 THERE SHOULD FORING FOR ASBE DUSS T BT ASEDO URS ON EVERYTHING THAT YOU KNEW ABOUT ASBESTOS AND DISEASE A. I'M GOING TO ANSWER THAT THIS WAY IP I HAD BEEN CALLED UPON AND GIVEN THE ASSIGNMENT OF MAKING ANINVESOT F AI POG TENA TIALT LY I HAZO ARDN OUS ASBESTOS MONITORING OF CONCENTRATION 10 WOULD HAVE BEEN ONE THE THINGS THAT I WOULD 11 HAVE RECOMMENDED 2 WHAT ELSE WOULD YOU HAVE RECOMMENDED 13 A. A LOT WOULD DEPEND UPON THE RESULT OF THE 14 MEASUREMENTS OF DUST CONCENTRATIONS THAT 15 INDUSTRIAL HYGIENE SIR BY THE PURPOSE OF THE 16 MEASUREMENTS IN THOSE DAYS PRIOR TO OSHA WERE TO 17 FIND OUT WHAT THE EXTENT OF THE HAZARD WAS AND 18 WHAT PARTS OF THE OPERATION GAVE RISE TO HAZARDOUS 19 CONCENTRATION OF DUST IN THE AIR THAT WOULD BE A 20 GUIDELINE THEN TO CONTROL MEASURES IF THE DUST 21 CONCENTRATIONS INDICATED THAT THEY WERE NECESSARY 22 Q. WHEN YOU SAY THE DUST CONCENTRATION SIR 23 ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT TLV'S 24 A. WELL AT THAT TIME WE DID HAVE A RECOMMENDED 25 TLV AND THE DUST MEASUREMENTS WOULD HAVE BEEN MADE MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN -- JACOBY 55 WITH THAT IN MIND BUT THAT WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN THE ONLY CRITERIA Q. NOW A TLV SIR IS THAT SPEAKING AS AN INDUSTRIAL HYGIENIST IS THAT AN ABSOLUTE STANDARD OR IS THAT MORE ALONG THE LINES OF A PROPOSAL A GUIDELINE A. IT'S NOT AN ABSOLUTE STANDARD FOR YEARS THE PREFACE TO THE ANNUAL PUBLICATION OF THE TLV'S CARRIED THE STATEMENT THAT THESE VALUES ARE NOT 10 INTENDED TO BE SHARP DIVIDING LINES BETWEEN SAFE 11 AND UNSAFE THAT'S WHY I QUALIFIED MY ANSWER BY 12 SAYING THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN ONE OF THE CRITERIA 13 OTHERS WOULD HAVE BEEN SINCE IT'S NOT A SHARP LINE 14 BETWEEN SAFE AND UNSAFE IF YOU FIND AN AVERAGE 15 CONCENTRATION OF SIX AND THE TLV IS FIVE YOU'RE 16 GOING TO RECOMMEND DUST CONTROL IT'S TOO CLOSE 17 Q. WHAT IF YOU FIND CONCENTRATIONS BELOW THE 18 TLV COULD YOU AS AN INDUSTRIAL HYGIENIST COME TO 19 THE CONCLUSION THAT IT WAS THEN SAFE 20 A. VERY OFTEN WE HAD TO DO THAT IN 21 INVESTIGATING A COMPLETE PROCESS WE'D RULE OUT 22 23 CERTAIN PARTS OF THE PROCESS THAT CONTAINED NO RISK 24 Q. WELL YOU WERE A MEMBER OF THE ACGIH IS 25 THAT CORRECT AMERICAN CONFERENCE OF GOVERNMENTAL MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY AND INDUSTRIAL HYGIENISTS A. I WAS WHEN I WAS IN THE U.S. NAVY I WAS SIMPLY A CONSULTANT TO THEM LATER ON 0 A LIFETIME MEMBER IS THAT NOT CORRECT A. I AM NOW YES Q. IT WAS THE ACGIH THAT ESTABLISHED THE TLV'S IS THAT NOT CORRECT A. CORRECT Q. ISN'T IT TRUE THAT THE ACGIH WENT OUT OF ITS 10 WAY ON MANY OCCASIONS TO SAY THESE AREN'T 11 STANDARDS THEY'RE JUST GUIDELINES JUST 12 PROPOSALS 13 A. THAT'S RIGHT 14 15 16 17 18 Q. AND ISN'T IT TRUE AND I'M TALKING ABOUT ASBESTOS NOW NOT TLV'S DON'T THINK THAT IF YOU FOR OTHER SUBSTANCES THAT HAVE CONCENTRATIONS BELOW THIS THAT IT'S SAFE ISN'T THAT CORRECT THAT'S NOT WHAT WE'RE SAYING 19 20 21 22 A. I GUESS THAT'S A LOGICAL SEQUENCE TO THE STATEMENT THAT THEY'RE NOT SHARP DIVIDING LINES BETWEEN SAFE AND UNSAFE e NOW ARE YOU DREESSEN STUDY FAMILIAR WITH DREESSEN THE 24 A. YES 25 Q. AND DREESSEN -- MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY 57 OBJECTION MS ALITO I HAVE TO OBJECT TO THIS LINE OF QUESTIONING BECAUSE I THINK WE'RE GOING BACK HEAVILY INTO THE AREA OF EXPERT TESTIMONY AND I HAVE TO REITERATE THAT MR MORGAN IS HERE AS A FACT WITNESS AND IT IS APPROPRIATE TO QUESTION HIM ABOUT HIS STATE OF KNOWLEDGE AT CERTAIN PERIODS RELEVANT TO THE DOCUMENTS AND HIS INVOLVEMENT IN WORK AT DUPONT BUT TO START GOING 10 INTO THESE BROAD AREAS THAT ARE CLEARLY EXPERT 11 TESTIMONY AREAS I THINK IS INAPPROPRIATE 12 MR JACOBY LET ME STATE AGAIN 13 THAT I AM NOT HERE TO ASK FOR ANY EXPERT WITNESS 14 TESTIMONY I'M HERE FOR ONE PURPOSE AND ONE 15 PURPOSE ONLY TO FIND OUT THE STATE OF YOUR MIND 16 AND THE STATE OF YOUR KNOWLEDGE IT JUST SO 17 HAPPENS THAT MR MORGAN WAS AN EXPERT AND THE 18 STATE OF HIS MIND IS AN AREA THAT TO WE LAYMEN 19 ARE EXPERT AREAS I'M NOT ASKING HIM TO EXPRESS 20 ANY OPINIONS JUST TO TELL ME WHAT HE KNOWS THOSE AREAS ARE AREAS OF EXPERTISE I JUST CAN'T SAY IT ANY OTHER WAY BY MR JACOBY Q. DREESSEN ESTABLISHED A TLV DIDN'T HE A. I WOULDN'T USE THAT TERM MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY 58 OBJECTION | MS ALITO I HAVE TO REITERATE THE OBJECTION MR MORGAN'S CURRENT KNOWLEDGE WITH RESPECT TO DREESSEN OR ANYBODY ELSE I THINK IS TOTALLY IRRELEVANT TO THIS CASE I THINK IT'S APPROPRIATIEF YOU -- NOT TO TELL YOU HOW TO CONDUCT YOUR EXAMINATION I'M SURE YOU WOULDN'T LET ME EVEN IF I TRIED BUT HIS KNOWLEDGE OF DREESSEN AT THE TIME THAT THIS EXHIBIT WAS WRITTEN 10 OR THE STATE OF HIS KNOWLEDGE AT THAT TIME 11 CERTAINLY YOU'RE FREE TO GO INTO THAT BUT TO SIT 12 HERE RIGHT NOW AND ASK HIM TO RECALL THE VARIOUS 13 14 15 16 AUTHORS I THINK IS TOTALLY OUT OF BOUNDS MR JACOBY WELL IF YOU LET ME JUST ASK A FEW MORE QUESTIONS YOU'D SEE THAT MR MORGAN HAS ANY NUMBER OF DOCUMENTS WHERE HE TALKS AHOUT 17 TLV'S AND TLV'S ARE THE SUM AND SUBSTANCE OF WHAT 18 THE MAN DID HE WAS AN EXPERT IN THIS AREA HE 19 WORKED WITH THRESHOLD LIMIT VALUES HE 20 RECOMMENDED THRESHOLD LIMIT VALUES HE DID AIR 21 MONITORING TO SEE IF THRESHOLD LIMIT VALUES WERE 22 COMPLIED WITH AND ALL I'M ASKING HIM IS IF HE 23 KNEW WHAT THE THRESHOLD LIMIT VALUE WAS AT ONE 24 POINT IN TIME OF EMPLOYMENT I'M NOT GOING TO ASK 25 HIM ANY OPINIONS DID HE AGREE OR DISAGREE OR ANY MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY 59 OF THAT I'M JUST ASKING HIM DID HE KNOW THAT THEY EXISTED AND EITHER HE DID OR DIDN'T MS ALITO OKAY OUR POSITIONS HAVE BOTH BEEN STATED I CONTINUE WITH MY OBJECTION TO THIS LINE OF QUESTIONING BUT WE SHOULD GO FORWARD IF YOU COULD READ BACK THE QUESTION OR RESTATE IT BY MR JACOBY Q. SIR YOU CAN SEE WHERE IN P MORGAN THE 10 DOCUMENT WE'VE BEEN DISCUSSING IT SAYS IN LINE 11 WITH THIS CURRENT FEELING I AM ENCLOSING THE 12 TENTATIVE VALUES BEING SUGGESTED BY THE ACGIH FOR 13 THE TLV FOR ASBESTOS OKAY 14 A. YES Q. THE RECOMMENDATION MADE IS NOTHING BUT A 16 PROPOSAL AT THIS TIME BUT IT IS INDICATIVE OF THE 17 TRENDS OF THE INDUSTRIAL HYGIENE THINKING 18 MY ONLY REAL QUESTION TO YOU SIR IS DO YOU 19 AGREE WITH THAT THAT'S ALL I'M TRYING TO ASK 20 YOU 21 22 24 25 A. THERE WAS A VALUE OF FIVE MILLION PARTICLES ' PER CUBIC FOOT OF AIR WHICH ORIGINALLY WAS SUGGESTED BY DREESSEN AS A TENTATIVE VALUE AND IT REMAINED IN THE TLV LIST UNTIL ABOUT THIS YEAR 1968 AT WHICH TIME THE COMMITTEE BEGAN TO MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals 60 MORGAN - JACOBY CONSIDER A CHANGE Q. I UNDERSTAND THINK A AND I THAT'S WHAT STOPPS IS TALKING ABOUT HERE Q. ALL RIGHT OBVIOUSLY I THINK THAT'S WHAT HE IS TALKING ABOUT WHEN DREESSEN RECOMMENDED THAT TLV IN YOUR A GUIDELINE OR AN MIND SIR WAS THAT A PROPOSAL ABSOLUTE STANDARD IN INDUSTRIAL HYGIENE 10 11 12 13 14 A. I THINK FOR AN ANSWER TO THAT YOU SHOULD GO TO THE DREESSEN PAPER ITSELF AND THE WORDS THAT HE USED IN RECOMMENDING THAT Q. AND THE WORDS THAT HE USED WERE PROPOSAL A. EXACTLY 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 Q. SAID AGREE AND MY QUESTION I WANT TO KNOW WITH THAT IS - I KNOW WHAT WHAT MORGAN SAYS DREESSEN DID YOU \ A. I HAVE A DEFINITE OPINION ON THAT Q. I DON'T WANT YOUR EXPERT OPINION A. IT HAS NOTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH THE DUPONT PLANT PER SE OBJECTION MS ALITO WELL I HAVE TO OBJECT 23 YOU JUST ASKED MR MORGAN A FACT WITNESS WHETHER 24 HE AGREES WITH WHAT DREESSEN STATED AND THAT'S AN 25 EXPERT OPINION MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals 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eT 19 DID HEAR OF RELATIONSHIPS THAT 20 TEN INVESTIGATED BY OTHERS OTHERS 21 Q. AND WHAT DID YOU HEAR SIR oh 22 A. THAT THERE SEEMED TO BE AN INCREASED 23 INCIDENT OF LUNG CANCER IN PEOPLE WHO HAD 24 ASBESTOSAINSD SMOKED OVER THO WHS O HE AD ASBESTOSIS AND DID NOT SMOKE MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY 62 Q. DID YOU KNOW WHETHER OR NOT DUPONT HAD IN ITS EMPLOY INDIVIDUALS WHO WERE EXPOSED TO ASBESTOS AND SMOKED A. ABSOLUTELY NOT I DIDN'T KNOW Q. DID YOU MAKE ANY EFFORT TO FIND OUT A. NO IN MY POSITION I DIDN'T TAKE THE INITIATIVE IN GOING OUT AND LOOKING FOR THINGS I WAS -- WE DIVIDED THE TASKS AMONG THE AVAILABLE PERSONNEL 10 Q. WHO WAS THAT THAT TOLD YOU -- 11 A. I WAS NOT SENT OUT TO INVESTIGATE SMOKING 12 Q. WHO WAS IT THAT TOOK THE INIATIVE IF YOU 13 KNOW 14 A. IN THIS PARTICULAR MATTER OF SMOKING AND 15 ASBESTOS 16 Q. WELL SMOKING - ASBESTOS GENERALLY THE 17 HEALTH EFFECTS OF ASBESTOS WAS THERE AN 18 INDIVIDUAL IN THE DUPONT COMPANY THAT YOU KNEW 19 THAT TOOK THE INIATIVE IN THIS INQUIRY 20 A. WELL I THINK IT'S EVIDENT FROM THE 21 CORRESPONDENCE THAT YOU SHOWED ME THAT STOPPS WAS 22 QUITE ACTIVE IN DOING THAT I DON'T KNOW THE 23 EXACT ASSIGNMENT ON WHICH HE WAS WORKING 24 Q. AND IN TERMS OF YOUR DIRECT COMMUNICATION 25 WITH DR STOPPS WHICH WENT BACK TO - EXCUSE ME MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY 63 I MISCHARACTERIZED THAT NOT YOUR DIRECT COMMUNICATION WITH DR STOPPS BUT IN TERMS OF DR STOPPS COMMUNICATION OF WHICH YOU RECEIVED A COPY IN 1965 HE HAD ALREADY BEEN TALKING ABOUT ASBESTOS DISEASE AND WATCHING PEOPLE AND PULLING HEALTH RECORDS AND SO ON ISN'T THAT CORRECT IN '65 A. I ASSUME THAT'S CORRECT Q. A. WELL -- IT STARTED AFTER 1964 10 Q. AND WE DISCUSSED THAT IN SOME DETAIL AND I'M 11 TALKING ABOUT P MORGAN THE NOVEMBER 29 65 12 LETTER WHERE DR STOPPS RAISED ALL OF THESE 13 ISSUES 14 NOW SIR TURNING YOUR ATTENTION TO P 15 MORGAN AND THAT'S DATED NOVEMBER THE 5TH OF 16 1968. DO YOU SEE THAT 17 A. YES 18 Q. AND THAT IS FROM YOU TO DR J.A. ZAPP AND 19 YOU TOLD US A LITTLE WHILE AGO THAT HE'S ONE OF 20 THE PEOPLE YOU REPORTED DIRECTLY TO IS THAT 21 CORRECT 22 A. AND HE WAS THE DIRECTOR OF HASKELL 23 LABORATORY I REPORTED TO AN INTERMEDIARY TO HIM 24 AND I WAS FREE TO CORRESPOND DIRECTLY WITH HIM 25 Q. AND ON THIS OCCASION YOU DID MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY 64 A. I DID YEAH Q. AND YOU TALK ABOUT A NEW YORKER ARTICLE ON ASBESTOS OKAY A. OH YEAH Q. AM I CORRECT SIR THAT YOU READ THE NEW YORKER ARTICLE ON ASBESTOS A. I SUPPOSE I MUST HAVE Q. I GOT TO TAKE IT ONE STEP AT A TIME AND 10 APPARENTLY YOU SENT A COPY OF THAT ARTICLE TO - A. TO ZAPP 11 Q. TO DR ZAPP IS THAT CORRECT 12 A. RIGHT I THINK I DID I SAID SO 13 Q. I'M NOT ASKING YOU TO GO WAY OUT ON A LIMB 14 HERE OR ANYTHING 15 WHAT WAS CONTAINED IN YOUR ARTICLE THE NEW 16 YORKER ARTICLE 17 A. I DON'T REMEMBER 18 Q. WELL YOU THOUGHT ENOUGH OF IT TO CUT IT OUT 19 AND SEND IT TO HIM 20 A. YES AND AT THE TIME I MUST HAVE BEEN 21 22 INTERESTED IN ITS EFFECT OF WHAT WAS SAID IN IT BUT AT THIS DATE I DON'T RECALL WHICH ARTICLE THAT 23 WAS I REMEMBER A SERIES OF ARTICLES IN THE NEW 24 YORKER MAGAZINE ON ASBESTOS BUT I DON'T RECALL 25 THAT THEY CAME AS EARLY AS 1968 MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN --- JACOBY 65 Q. AS OF THIS TIME THE TIME THAT YOU SENT THE NEW YORKER ARTICLE TO ZAPP DO YOU KNOW WHAT WAS BEING DONE BY DR STOPPS AND HIS COLLEAGUES IN TERMS OF PROTECTING EMPLOYEES FROM THE POTENTIAL HEALTH HAZARDS OF ASBESTOS A. I'VE SEEN HERE TODAY IN SOME OF THESE ITEMS OF CORRESPONDENCE THAT STOPPS WAS ACTIVE IN TALKING ABOUT AT LEAST IN PROMOTING VARIOUS LINES OF INVESTIGATION 10 Q. AND DID YOU BELIEVE THAT THAT INQUIRY WAS A 11 PROPER INQUIRY IN LIGHT OF WHAT YOU KNEW ABOUT 12 ASBESTOS 13 A. - YES 14 Q. DID YOU BELIEVE THAT INDIVIDUALS SHOULD BE 15 TOLD 16 A. WELL AS A SCIENTIST IT WOULD BE MY 17 JUDGMENT THAT INVESTIGATION OF THE RISKS CAUSED BY 18 ASBESTOS IN THE WORK PLACE SHOULD BE PURSUED 19 BECAUSE THE KNOWLEDGE WAS CERTAINLY NOT FULL AND 20 COMPLETE AND CUT AND DRY AT THAT TIME 21 Q. NOW MR MORGAN ON THE NEXT EXHIBIT OKAY 22 AND THAT'S DATED OCTOBER 2ND 1969 -- 23 MS ALITO FOR THE RECORD THIS IS P MORGAN 25 BY MR JACOBY MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY Q. DO YOU SEE THAT SIR IT SAYS OLD HICKORY TENNESSEE AND IT SAYS ON THE LEFT PERSONAL AND 66 CONFIDENTIAL J.P. MORGAN HASKELL LABORATORY DO YOU SEE THAT SIR A. YEAH I ASSUME THAT WAS TO ME NOT TO MY DAD J.P. Q. YOU SEE THAT SIR TAKE A MINUTE AND LOOK THROUGH IT NOW THIS WAS A DOCUMENT THAT YOU SENT IS THAT CORRECT 10 A. NO IT WAS ADDRESSED TO ME 11 Q. I'M SORRY A DOCUMENT THAT YOU RECEIVED 12 A. YES AND SIGNED BY CHARLES CROOK 13 Q. RIGHT I'M SORRY DO YOU KNOW WHY IT WOULD 14 HAVE BEEN MARKED PERSONAL AND CONFIDENTIAL 15 MS ALITO CAN THE WITNESS HAVE A 16 MINUTE TO LOOK THROUGH THE DOCUMENT FIRST 17 18 AHEAD MR JACOBY OH YES I'M | SORRY GO 19 20 21 THE WITNESS YOU ASKED ME WHY IT WAS SENT PERSONALLY AND CONFIDENTIALLY BY MR JACOBY 22 Q. IF YOU KNOW 23 A. A DOCUMENT LIKE THIS IS WRITTEN IN THE 24 COURSE OF SOME CONSIDERATIONS OF A LINE OF ACTION IN THIS CASE REPORTING ON DUST CONCENTRATIONS MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals 67 MORGAN - JACOBY SEVERAL OPTIONS WERE STILL OPEN IN THEIR CONSIDERATIONS AND THOSE QUESTIONS ARE NOT USUALLY PUBLICIZED UNTIL SOME DECISION HAS MADE ON WHICH WAY TO GO OTHERWISE THERE BE A MISUNDERSTANDING SO THESE KINDS OF BEEN COULD DOCUMENTS ARE ALWAYS KEPT TO THE PEOPLE WHO NEEDED TO KNOW AND WERE DIRECTLY INVOLVED IN THE DECISION MAKING 2 So IN 1969 A DECISION HADN'T BEEN MADE YET 10 AS TO WHICH WAY TO GO WITH THIS ASBESTOS PROBLEM 11 OBJECTION 12 MS ALITO I OBJECT TO THE FORM 13 THE WITNESS THAT'S A 14 GENERALIZATION THAT IS NOT CORRECT 15 BY MR JACOBY 16 17 18 19 20 21 Q. OKAY WELL WHAT DECISIONS HAD BEEN MADE A. OBVIOUSLY A DECISION HAD BEEN MADE TO MEASURE ASBESTOS DUST LEVELS Q. THAT HAD NOT YET BEEN . DONE A. THEY MAY HAVE BEEN ONGOING BEFORE THAT I DON'T KNOW 22 Q. DO YOU KNOW -- 23 A. BUT AT THIS PARTICULAR TIME THEY'RE 24 CONSIDERING DIFFERENT MEANS OF REPORTING THESE 25 VALUES AS YOU SEE IN THE LETTER THE CONSTRUCTION MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY 68 DIVISION ADOPTED ONE PARTICULAR LEVEL AND THESE PEOPLE IN THE TEXTILE FIBER DEPARTMENT ARE TRYING TO DECIDE WHETHER THEY SHOULD GO ALONG WITH THE CONSTRUCTION DIVISION'S RECOMMENDATION Q. IN 1969 SIR DO YOU HAVE PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE AS TO WHETHER OR NOT ANY AIR MONITORING HAD BEEN CONDUCTED MS ALITO DATE IS '68 EXCUSE ME I THINK THE 10 MR JACOBY I'M SORRY -- 11 MS ALITO OH NO I'M WRONG 12 MR JACOBY GOOD 13 THE WITNESS NO I THINK I 14 MENTIONED BEFORE THAT I WAS NOT PERSONALLY 15 INVOLVED IN MEASURING DUST IN THE PLANTS SO -- 16 BY MR JACOBY 17 Q. I UNDERSTAND MY QUESTION TO YOU IS DID YOU 18 KNOW WHETHER IN FACT IT WAS GOING ON OR NOT 19 A. I DON'T RECALL WHETHER I DID OR DID NOT KNOW 20 DEFINITELY WHETHER IT WAS GOING ON AT THAT TIME 21 22 23 2 SHOULD IT HAVE BEEN GOING ON AT THAT POINT A. IT SHOULD HAVE AND IT PROBABLY WAS BUT I DON'T HAVE A DEFINITE RECOLLECTION 24 Q. YOU KNOW BACK IN '66 STOPPS TALKED ABOUT 25 PULLING THE MEDICAL RECORDS OF FIFTY PIPE MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI ^ NC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY 69 COVERERS SO THEY COULD LOOK TO SEE IF THERE WAS ANY DISEASE OR ANYTHING AND SO ON DID YOU EVER ASK FOR THE RESULTS OF THAT INQUIRY A. I DON'T RECALL Q. DO YOU RECALL EVER THINKING ABOUT PAYING ANY ATTENTION TO THAT ASPECT OF IT ACTUALLY WATCHING INDIVIDUALS WHO WORKED WITH ASBESTOS DOES THAT QUESTION MAKE SENSE A. THE QUESTION IS AIMED AT MY COMMON SENSE 10 KNOWING THAT ASBESTOS CAN CAUSE DISEASE DID I 11 HAVE ANY FEELING THAT IT SHOULD BE CONTROLLED 12 Q. LET'S BREAK IT DOWN 13 A. YES IT SHOULD BE CONTROLLED 14 Q. DR STOPPS WROTE A LETTER AND YOU RECEIVED A 15 COPY AND IN THAT LETTER P MORGAN IT SAYS I'M 16 PULLING THE RECORDS OF FIFTY PIPE COVERERS 17 BECAUSE I WANT TO SEE WHAT THEIR MEDICAL RECORDS 18 SHOW AND YOU RECEIVED A COPY OF THAT DID YOU 19 EVER ASK DR STOPPS HEY WHAT DID YOU FIND OUT 20 ABOUT THESE GUYS 21 A. YOU ASKED THAT QUESTION IN A DIFFERENT FORM 22 JUST A COUPLE MINUTES AGO AND I SAID I DON'T 23 RECALL 24 25 Q. OKAY SO WOULD IT BE CORRECT SIR THAT IN 1969 IN TERMS OF YOUR OWN KNOWLEDGE AND IN YOUR MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY 70 OWN PARTICIPATION NO POSITIVE STEPS HAD BEEN TAKEN YET IN TERMS OF MONITORING ASBESTOS DUST IN THE AIR OR REDUCING ASBESTOS DUST OBJECTION MS ALITO OBJECTION ASKED AND ANSWERED YOU CAN ANSWER IT AGAIN I ALSO OBJECT TO THE FORM THE WITNESS WILL YOU REPEAT IT PLEASE 10 DESIGNATED QUESTION IS READ 11 THE WITNESS THE QUESTION QUALIFIES 12 THE ANSWER TO THE EXTENT OF MY OWN KNOWLEDGE AND 13 PARTICIPATION THAT WOULD HAVE LED ME TO CONCLUDE 14 15 EITHER ONE OF TWO THINGS THINGS WERE NOT BEING DONE OR THINGS WERE BEING DONE 16 BY MR JACOBY 17 Q. 18 A. YOU DIDN'T KNOW ONE WAY OR THE OTHER I DON'T RECALL ANY SPECIFIC KNOWLEDGE OF 19 THINGS THAT WERE BEING DONE I DON'T RECALL -- H 20 DON'T HAVE ANY SPECIFIC KNOWLEDGE THAT THINGS WERE 21 NOT BEING DONE 22 Q. AGAIN I'M NOT TRYING TO ARGUE WITH YOU -- 23 A. I'D LIKE TO ASSUME AND I WOULD ASSUME YES CERTAINLY THERE WERE THINGS BEING DONE AND I 25 BELIEVE THAT MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY 71 2 I'M NOT TRYING TO ARGUE WITH YOU BUT BASED ON THE DOCUMENTS THAT WE'RE REVIEWING YOU HAD SOME LEVEL OF PARTICIPATION WITH THIS ASBESTOS SITUATION YOU RECEIVED DOCUMENTS YOU AUTHORED DOCUMENTS HAVING TO DO WITH ASBESTOS IS THAT CORRECT A. YES Q AND ALL I'M TRYING AS I'VE TRIED TO DO WITH EVERY WITNESS IS FIND OUT THE LEVEL OF YOUR 10 PARTICIPATION 11 A. IT IS LIMITED 12 Q. 13 A. THAT'S WHAT I'M TRYING TO FIND OUT BUT I DON'T LIKE TO BE PUT IN THE POSITION 14 OF AGREEING WITH YOUR CONCLUSION - 15 Q. NO I DON'T WANT YOU TO 16 A. -- THAT SOMETHING WAS OR WAS NOT DONE 17 18 19 20 21 Q. ONLY IF YOU KNOW IF YOU THINK IT WAS DONE YOU TELL ME IF YOU DON'T KNOW YOU TELL ME THE LAST THING I WANT TO DO IS PUT WORDS IN YOUR MOUTH OKAY YOU'RE FREE TO SAY I DISAGREE AT ANY TIME 22 NOW SIR THIS MEMORANDUM LET'S CALL IT OF 23 OCTOBER 2ND 1969 HAS A SERIES OF ATTACHMENTS 24 DO YOU SEE THAT 25 A. YES ee ee ee MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals - ~_ MORGAN - JACOBY 72 Q. I HAD QUESTIONED YOU ABOUT A LOT OF THAT EARLIER TALKING ABOUT DREESSEN MEREWETHER LYNCH AND SMITH SOME OF THE AUTHORS THAT WE HAD TALKED ABOUT DO YOU SEE THIS AND I'LL DIRECT YOUR ATTENTION TO ON THE BOTTOM IT SAYS PAGE 15 AND ON THE TOP IT SAYS ATTACHMENT II DOCUMENTATION OF TLV FOR THE 1966 ACGIH DO YOU SEE THAT A. YES REFERENCES 2 OKAY NOW ON THE THIRD PARAGRAPH SIR IT 10 SAYS THAT EXPOSURE TO ASBESTOS IS ASSOCIATED WITH 11 DEVELOPMENT OF A POTENTIALLY DISABLING 12 PNEUMOCONIOSIS IN MAN HAS BEEN APPLY DEMONSTRATED 13 BY INDUSTRIAL EXPERIENCE THEN IT GIVES A SERIES 14 OF REFERENCES OKAY 15 A. THREE THROUGH ELEVEN 16 Q. AND THOSE REFERENCES WERE SOME OF THE ONES I 17 DISCUSSED WITH YOU EARLIER 18 A. YES 19 Q. NOW WHEN YOU RECEIVED THIS DOCUMENT IN 1969 20 AND YOU RECEIVED THIS ATTACHMENT DID YOU AGREE 21 WITH THAT STATEMENT THAT EXPOSURE TO ASBESTOS IS 22 ASSOCIATED WITH THE DEVELOPMENT OF A POTENTIALLY 23 DISABLING ET CETERA ET CETERA - 24 25 MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY 73 OBJECTION MS ALITO I OBJECT TO THAT QUESTION ON THE GROUNDS THAT WHETHER HE AGREED WITH THIS MEDICAL CONCLUSION OR NOT IS IRRELEVANT AND CALLS FOR AN EXPERT OPINION MR JACOBY I THINK IT CALLS FOR THE STATE OF MIND OF ONE OF THE TOP INDUSTRIAL HYGIENISTS AT THE DUPONT COMPANY WHETHER IT'S TRUE OR NOT IS EXTRANEOUS WHETHER HE BELIEVED IT 10 OR NOT IS VERY RELEVANT 11 THE WITNESS A WHILE AGO YOU 12 MENTIONED MEREWETHER 1930 AND I CORRECTED YOU AND 13 - YOU SAID 1935 AND I SAID 1930 THAT WAS MORE 14 THAN ONE MEREWETHER PAPER 15 MR JACOBY ANY NUMBER 16 THE WITNESS THE ONE THAT I USED 17 MOST OFTEN WAS MEREWETHER AND POST I BELIEVE IT 18 WAS MEREWETHER WAS THE MEDICAL MAN AND THE OTHER 19 GUY WAS THE ENGINEER AND THEY MADE A JOINT 20 INVESTIGATION I WAS FAMILIAR WITH ALL THAT AND 21 AGREED WITH THE CONCLUSIONS 22 BY MR JACOBY 23 Q. BUT MY QUESTION TO YOU SIR AND MY POINT 24 25 IS THAT CERTAINLY IN 1969 AND EVEN BEFORE THAT AS YOU'VE ALREADY TESTIFIED YOU HAD BEEN PRIVY TO MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals 74 MORGAN ~- JACOBY| THESE VARIOUS STUDIES AND PAPERS AND SO ON YOU HAD KNOWLEDGE OF THEM A. YES Q. OKAY AND DID YOU HAVE ANY KNOWLEDGE OF THIS WHERE IT SAYS ATTACHMENT III FROM THE ANNALS OF THE NEW YORK ACADEMY OF SCIENCE AND IT'S DATED DECEMBER 31 1965 THE BIOLOGICAL EFFECTS OF ASBESTOS HAD YOU SEEN THAT BEFORE 1969 IF YOU REMEMBER 10 A. I DON'T REMEMBER TIMBRELL AT ALL V. 11 TIMBRELL 12 Q. BY THIS TIME SIR BY 1969 HAD YOU REACHED 13 A CONCLUSION IN YOUR OWN MIND AS TO WHETHER OR NOT 14 ASBESTOS CAN CAUSE CANCER OF THE LUNG 15 A. IT'S HARD FOR ME TO PUT A DATE ON IT BUT I 16 WOULD BE INCLINED TO SAY YES I HAD BEEN CONVINCED 17 AT THAT TIME THAT THERE WAS A RELATIONSHIP 18 Q. 19 A. WHAT ABOUT MESOTHELIOMA I DIDN'T KNOW MUCH ABOUT THAT THAT WAS 20 21 22 STILL A MYSTERY TO A LOT OF PEOPLE Q. WELL YOU TALKED ABOUT IT IN SOME DETAIL IN OTHER DOCUMENTS BUT AT THIS TIME IN 1969 I BELIEVE YOUR ANSWER WAS YOU DIDN'T HAVE MUCH 24 KNOWLEDGE ABOUT MESOTHELIOMA 25 A. I'M NOT SURE OF THE TIME THE DATE BUT I MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY 75 THINK THAT'S RIGHT | Q. WHEN YOU GOT THIS DOCUMENT IN 1969 AND THOSE ATTACHMENTS OKAY AND WE'VE ALREADY GONE OVER THEM IN SOME DETAIL AND YOU TOLD US YOU KNEW ABOUT THEM EVEN BEFORE THIS DID YOU BELIEVE THAT THERE WERE INDIVIDUALS AT DUPONT WHO HAD THE RISK OF GETTING CANCER OF THE LUNG BECAUSOEF WHAT THEY DID FOR A LIVING A. I DID NOT 10 e 11 A. AND WHY IS THAT SIR IN DUPONT THERE WAS A GREAT EFFORT 12 CONTINUALLY BEING MADE FOR SAFETY AND HEALTH 13 Q. 14 A. SIR I UNDERSTAND THAT I'M NOT HERE TO - YOU ASKED ME AND THAT'S MY ANSWER 15 Q. I'M NOT HERE TO TRY TO GIVE THE DUPONT 16 COMPANY A BLACK EYE I WANT TO KNOW WHAT YOUR 17 OPINION WAS IN 1969. DID YOU BELIEVE THAT THERE 18 WERE EMPLOYEES WHO WORKED FOR THE DUPONT COMPANY 19 WHO WORKED WITH ASBESTOS ON A DAILY BASIS AND 20 WITH YOUR KNOWLEDGE OF HOW ASBESTOS WAS USED IN 21 THIS COMPANY THAT WERE AT RISK OF GETTING CANCER 22 OF THE LUNG 23 MS ALITO HE ALREADY ANSWERED THIS 24 QUESTION YOU CAN ANSWER IT AGAIN IF YOU WANT 25 THE WITNESS DID I BELIEVE EMPLOYEES MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals 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rofessionals Serving Professionals 77 MORGAN - JACOBY SPECIFIC MEASURES WERE TAKEN ON THE VARIOUS PLANTS SO I OBJECT TO THE QUESTION ON THE GROUND THAT IT ASSUMES FACTS THAT ARE NOT So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rofessionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY 78 Q. NOW SIR IF YOU'LL TURN TO THE NEXT EXHIBIT I BELIEVE IT'S DATED NOVEMBER THE 25TH 1969. I LOST THE NUMBER - MS ALITO BY MR JACOBY 6 P MORGAN Q. IT SAYS ON THE TOP UNDERLINED METHOD OF REPORTING ASBESTOS DUST LEVELS APPARENTLY IT'S A RESPONSE TO THIS PREVIOUS ONE A. YES 10 Q. NOW SIR IN THE THIRD PARAGRAPH THE SECOND 11 SENTENCE IT SAYS IT IS NOW GENERALLY RECOGNIZED 12 THAT THIS LEVEL AND THIS METHOD HAVE OUTLIVED 13 THEIR USEFULNESS YOU'RE REFERRING TO THE 14 ESTABLISHED TLV AT THAT TIME IS THAT CORRECT A. YES 16 Q. WHY DID YOU BELIEVE THAT THE EXISTING TLV 17 HAD OUTLIVED ITS USEFULNESS 18 A. BECAUSE AT THAT TIME I HAD BECOME AWARE OF 19 THE DEVELOPMENT OF METHODS OF COLLECTING DUST 20 SAMPLES AND COUNTING FIBERS THAT WAS CERTAINLY 21 MORE REASONABLE IN ATTEMPTING TO EVALUATE AN 22 ASBESTOS FIBER HAZARD THAN THE OLD METHOD OF 23 COUNTING DUST PARTICLES 24 Q. AM I CORRECT THAT SOMETIME PRIOR TO 1969 YOU 25 HAD BEEN ASKED OR INSTRUCTED TO MAKE THIS AN AREA MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY 79 OF INQUIRY FOR YOU ASBESTOS DUST MONITORING I DON'T RECALL WHETHER I DID IT ON MY OWN VOLUNTARILY OR WHETHER I HAD BEEN ASKED TO DO IT BY SOMEONE ELSE AND IF SO WHO THAT SOMEONE MAY HAVE BEEN Q. IT WAS NORMAL PROCEDURE FOR YOU TO DO THINGS LIKE THIS ON YOUR OWN A. I WOULDN'T SIT UP LATE AT NIGHT DOING IT AT HOME BUT YES IN CONNECTION WITH MY GENERAL 10 DUTIES IN THE DUPONT COMPANY I WOULD KEEP AWARE OF 11 DEVELOPMENTS OF THIS KIND NOT ONLY WITH RESPECT 12 TO ASBESTOS BUT MANY OTHER THINGS DURING THAT 13 PERIOD OF TIME I WAS SERVING ON THE AMERICAN 14 STANDARDS ASSOCIATION COMMITTEE AND SO I WROTE 15 STANDARDS FOR CONTAMINANTS IN THE AIR AND WORK 16 PLACES SO I WAS COGNIZANT OF THESE DEVELOPMENTS 17 Q. AND GOING ON WOULD I BE CORRECT SIR IF I 18 PHRASED IT IN TERMS OF 1968 AND '69 THAT YOUR 19 PARTICIPATION IN REGARD TO THE ASBESTOS SITUATION 20 INCREASED DURING THESE YEARS OVER WHAT IT HAD 21 BEEN IN THE PAST 22 A. I THINK YOU MAY ASSUME THAT 23 Q. WELL I DON'T WANT TO ASSUME IT 24 MORE INVOLVED WERE YOU 25 MS ALITO YES MR MORGAN PLEASE MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY 80 WE DON'T WANT YOU TO ASSUME ANY FACTS IF YOU REMEMBER PLEASE GIVE AN ANSWER BASED ON YOUR RECOLLECTION BUT YOUR GUESS IS NOT GOING TO HELP EITHER MR JACOBY OR ME THE WITNESS WELL I WOULD PREFER TO GIVE AN EXACT ANSWER TO THAT AND IN ORDER TO DO SO I WOULD HAVE TO REVIEW A LOT OF RECORDS OF INCOMING TELEPHONES CALLS AND CORRESPONDENCE THIS AND THAT AND THE OTHER THING SO I DON'T KNOW 10 WHAT WENT ON 11 BY MR JACOBY Q. IF I ASKED YOU THE QUESTION WERE YOU MORE 13 INVOLVED WITH ASBESTOS PROBLEMS IN '68 AND '69 14 THAN YOU HAD BEEN IN '64 AND '65 ARE YOU TELLING 15 ME YOU CAN'T ANSWER THAT QUESTION 16 A. 17 Q. NOT EXACTLY OKAY I PROBABLY WAS 18 MS ALITO THAT'S FINE 19 20 21 22 BY JACOBY AND WOULD THE AREA OF YOUR INVOLVEMENT HAVE BEEN IN THE AREA OF YOUR EXPERTISE DUST MOTORING AND SO ON AND THE INSTRUMENTATION FOR DUST 23 MONITORING 24 A. TO SOME EXTENT I WAS NOT WORKING IN A 25 LABORATORY WITH DUST COUNTING EQUIPMENT MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals 81 MORGAN - JACOBY Q. DID YOU HAVE ANY INVOLVEMENT OTHER THAN THE MONITORING OF dust A THAT'S KIND OF ADVISORY WORK THAT IS EXEMPLIFIED BY CHARLES E. CROOK 2 AND WOULD YOU AGREE THAT BASICALLY THE SUBJECT OF THESE PAST FEW EXHIBITS THAT WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT IS CONCENTRATIONS OF ASBESTOS IN THE AIR A. THAT'S A MAJOR PART OF IT YES 10 Q. THE STANDARDS AND SO ON AND SO FORTH NOW 11 THERE WAS ONE SENTENCE DOWN AT THE BOTTOM OF THIS 12 PAGE THAT I WASN'T QUITE SURE -- MAYBE YOU CAN 13 EXPLAIN IT TO ME 14 15 MORGAN MS ALITO WE'RE STILL ON P 16 BY MR JACOBY 17 18 19 20 21 22 Q. YEAH BOTTOM OF THAT PAGE SIR IT STARTS OUT THE LATTER ET CETERA AND METHOD OF COLLECTING AND COUNTING THEN IT SAYS IT GIVES A MORE DIRECT MEASURE OF THE AGENT WHICH NEEDS TO BE CONTROLLED IN ORDER TO ELIMINATE ASBESTOSIS A. YES 23 Q. 24 A. 25 2 THE AGENT WAS WHAT FIBERS OF ASBESTOS MINERAL WOULD DUST WOULD THAT BE ACCURATE OR NOT MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY 82 ACCURATE A. THE OLD METHOD DATES BACK TO -- DREESSEN REFERRED TO DUST AND HE USED HIS RECOMMENDED LIMIT AS AN INDEX OF DUSTINESS WITH THE ASSUMPTION THAT IF YOU'RE WORKING WITH ASBESTOS YOU'VE GOT ASBESTOS FIBERS IN THERE AMONG OTHER KINDS OF DUST AND IF YOU KEEP YOUR TOTAL DUST LOW YOUR FIBER COUNT IS GOING TO GO LOW BUT YOU'RE NOT MEASURING IT DIRECTLY THIS LATTER METHOD NOW 10 COMES TO MEASURE DIRECTLY THE ASBESTOS FIBERS 11 WHICH IS THE AGENT WE'RE CONCERNED WITH 12 Q. AND WHERE YOU SAY ELIMINATE ASBESTOSIS ~~ 13 A THAT WAS AN OBJECTIVE YES 14 2 15 A. ELIMINATE IT FROM WHERE FROM OCCURRENCE IN THE WORKING POPULATION 16 e TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE WAS IT OCCURRING IN THE 17 WORKING POPULATION 18 MS ALITO DO YOU MEAN WORKING 19 POPULATION IN GENERAL OR AT DUPONT 20 BY MR JACOBY 21 Q. AT DUPONT THE REST OF THE UNIVERSE HAS NO 22 IMPORTANCE FOR ME THIS MORNING 23 A. WELL I DON'T KNOW OF ANY INDIVIDUAL CASES 24 OF ASBESTOSIS IN THE DUPONT COMPANY 2 WELL YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT ELIMINATING MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY 83 THAT'S ALL I'M DRIVING AT WHAT DID YOU MEAN A. MAYBE I SHOULD HAVE SAID PREVENTING WHICH IS WHAT OUR OBJECTIVE WAS 2 So IF YOU COULD NOW GO BACK AND TAKE THE WORD ELIMINATE OUT AND PUT THE WORD PREVENTING -- A. I WOULDN'T BOTHER IT'S ONLY A LAWYER WHO CONCERNS OVER THAT I THINK MR CROOK GOT THE MESSAGE I WAS TRYING TO GIVE HIM Q. WHY DON'T YOU TELL ME THE MESSAGE YOU WERE 10 TRYING TO GIVE HIM 11 A. LET'S USE THE MOST EXACT METHOD AVAILABLE TO 12 US TO EVALUATE THE POTENTIAL RISK AND TO PREVENT 13 ASBESTOSIS 14 Q. 50 THEN IN 1969 YOU'RE STILL AT THE STAGE OF EVALUATING THE POTENTIAL RISK CORRECT 16 A. DONE IT HADN'T ALL BEEN 17 HAS NOT ALL BEEN DONE IT PROBABLY STILL 18 Q. 19 A. I'M JUST ASKING YOU A QUESTION SIR AND I'M ANSWERING IT 20 Q. IN 1969 YOU WERE AT THE STAGE OF EVALUATING 21 THE POTENTIAL RISK IS THAT CORRECT 22 23 A. MORE WORK HAD TO BE DONE THESE KINDS OF THINGS ARE DONE ON A CONTINUING BASIS 24 Q. I UNDERSTAND NOW LET'S GO TO FEBRUARY 25 2ND 1970 THE NEXT - EXHIBIT AND THIS IS A MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY 84 LETTER MS ALITO P MORGAN FOR THE RECORD BY MR JACOBY 2 A. I'LL GIVE YOU A CHANCE TO LOOK THROUGH IT ALL RIGHT Q. OKAY A. I HAVEN'T READ THIS ATTACHMENT THE ASBESTOS CONFERENCE I JUST READ THE LETTER SHALL I GO 10 AHEAD AND FINISH IT 11 Q. THIS LETTER SIR AM I CORRECT IS AUTHORED 12 BY YOU 13 A. YES 14 Q. WHY WAS IT THAT =< AND IT DISCUSSES AN 15 UPCOMING CONOF N AE SBER STOSE DON YOUC RECE ALL 16 THAT CONFERENCE 17 A. YES 18 Q. PLTA OOK PLC ACE OE N MAY THE 5TH AND 6TH | 19 COR Te CR OR E RC ECT T IF YOU REMEMBER| 20 A. 21 Q. YES ABOUT THAT + TIME WHY WAS IT THAT YOU WERE WRITING ABOUT THIS 22 CONFERENCE 23 A. GOING BACK TO 4 P MORGAN MORGAN TO 24 ZAPP 25 Q. IS THAT THE NEW YORKER THING MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals aa ~ am MORGAN - JACOBY 85 A. WELL IT MENTIONS THE NEW YORKER THAT'S TRIVIAL THOUGH THE PURPOSE OF THIS MEMO IS TO RECOMMEND TO DR ZAPP THE DIRECTOR OF HASKELL LABORATORY THAT CONSIDERATION BE GIVEN TO HOLDING A CONFERENCE TO COLLECT INFORMATION AND DISTRIBUTE IT COMPANY THIS IS A FOLLOW EVIDENTLY ZAPP SAID GO AHEAD YOU DO IT Q. A. 10 Q. WHEN DID YOU ASK FOR THAT - CONFERENCE THAT WAS OF NOVEMBER .68 AND IN FEBRUARY OF '70 YOU STARTED PLANNING 11 IT A. NO EVIDENTLY I WAS WORKING ON IT LONG 13 BEFORE THAT BECAUSE BY FEBRUARY 7TH WE HAD IT 14 ALL PRETTY WELL LINED UP AND WE HAD A PROPOSED 15 AGENDA YEAH A LOT OF WORK WENT INTO THE 16 INTERIM 17 Q. WHAT KIND OF WORK 18 A. PLANNING CONFERENCE PLANNING 19 20 Q. TALKING TO INDIVIDUALS ABOUT IT THAT KIND OF -- 21 21 A. OH YES POTENTIAL SPEAKERS AT THE 22 CONFERENCE I DEVOTED A LOT OF MY TIME TO THAT 23 PREPARATION FOR THAT CONFERENCE DURING THAT PERIOD 24 IN LATE 1969 Q. DO YOU KNOW WHY YOU WERE SELECTED TO MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY 86 ATE THIS CONFERENCE ? CONFERENCE I HAD A BROAD KNOWLEDGE OF THE USE AND THEARDS OF THE USE ASBES HAT D AO WIS DEACQUAINTANCESAHMOINPG PEOPLE IN THEINDUSTRIAL HYGIENE FIELD WHO WERE KNOWLEDGEABLE ABOUT IT ANDI DID NOT HAVE THE IMMEDIATE TASK OF GOING OUT INTO THE PLANTS AND MAKING MEASUREMENTS RECOMMENDING RESPIRATORS OR THINGS OF THAT SORT WAS USED I MORE ON THIS PLANNING LEVEL 10 Q. YOU HAD DIRECTLY INVOLVED ASBESTOS 11 IN THE PRECEDING YEARS WOULD BE ACCUA R CC A UR T AT E E 12 A. OH YES PRIOR TO DUPONT I WAS DOING LOT 13 OF WORK INASBESTOS 14 Q. WHE WASR THE AT 15 A. IN THE NAVY IN SHIPYARDS AND LATER ON -- -- 16 Q. WHAT KIND OFWORK 17 A. ACTURELY INVESTIGATING INVESTIGATING PLACES ASBESTOS 18 WAS hth SE AND THE MANNER IN WHICH IT IS BEING 19 'SAFETY PRECATU HAT T I WERO E N BEIS NG 20 TL 21 21 22 EMPLOYERS PRIOR TO DUPONT ANY SAFETY PRECAUTIONS 23 TO BE TAKEN WITH ASBESTOS 24 A. YES 25 Q. WHAT SAFETY PRECAUTIONS DID YOU RECOMMEND MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY 87 MS ALITO COULD YOU BE SPECIFIC ABOUT THE PLACE WHERE YOU RECOMMENDED IT JUST SO WE HAVE A CLEAR RECORD MR MORGAN AS YOU'RE ANSWERING THE QUESTION BY MR JACOBY Q. WELL LET'S START WITH THE NAVY in A. WEL IN L THE NAVY I VISITED SHIPYARDS FROM MIAMI FLORIDA ACROSS THE GULF COAST TO CORPUS CHRISTI TEXOA N TS HE WEST COAST FROM NATIONA 10 CITY CALIFORNIA ON UP TO EVERETT WASHINGTON 11 AND MANY OF THOSE SHIPYARDS HAD INSULATING SHOPS 12 AND WERE USING TO ASBESTOS INSULAT THEE VESSELS 13 UNDER CONSTRUCTION ANDI DID FREQUENTLY MAKE 14 RECOMMENDATIAO BONUST THE APPLICATION OF CONTROL 15 MEASURES TO PREVENT THE INHALATION OF ASBESTOS 16 DUST 17 2 18 A. 19 WHAT RECOMMENDATIONS DID YOU MAKE. DOC WAU S M A DE OCN UMET NT THAT WAS PREPARE BD Y NOGET HARVARD IN 1942 AND SUBSEQUENTLY 20 THE NAVY AND THE MARITIME COMMISSION 21 CALLED MINIMUM STANDARDS FOR HEALTH AND SAFETY IN 22 CONTRACT SHIPYARDS AND IT DEALT WITH RECOGNIZED 23 KNOWN OCCUPATIONAL DISEASES THAT OCCURRED FROM 24 MATERIALS THAT WOULD BE USED IN SHIPYARDS 2 SUCH AS ASBESTOS MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY 88 A. ASBESTOS WAS ONE OF THEM AND THAT DOCUMENT ITEMIZED PROTECTIVE MEASURES THAT COULD BE TAKEN SEGREGATION OF THE WORK WITH ASBESTOS ISOLATION OR CONTAINMENT WHENEVER POSSIBLE AND THAT'S POSSIBLY IN LOT OF USES SECONDLY APPLICATION OF LOCAL EXHAUST VENTILATIOTN O CAPTURE DUST AT ITS SOURCE AND DISPOSE OF IT WETTING DOWN OF DUSTY MATERIALS POTE DUN STY T MATI ERIAA LS L TO PL REVY ENT THE DUST oe 10 OCCURRING IN THE AIR THAT BREATHES RESPIRATORS 11 WHERE THE OTHER METHODS COULD NOT BE EFFECTIVE 12 INDHI AVE V BEEI N OTD HERU INDA IVIDL UAL 13 RECOMTM HATE WEN RE MD ADEA BET CAUI SE O OF CN ERTS AIN 14 SPECIFIC SITUATIONS 15 Q. WHAT YEARS WERE THIS SIR THAT YOU WERE 16 WITH NAVY 17 A. 18 Q. 143 AND 4 YOU SAID THAT THERE WERE AREAS IN THE 19 SHAUSENDS SHAUSENDS WHORE THE MECHANICAL PROCESSES OF INGANISH ASBESTOS WERE DONE CUTTING SAWING THAT KIND OF BUSINESS A. YES Q. AND WERE THEY TO THE INSTALLIA NST TAL I LAO TIN ON SHOPS THAT WERE ON THE FACILITIES WHERE THE CUTTING AND SAWING OF ASBESTOS WAS TAKING PLACE MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY 89 TOUR KNOWLEDGE | A. THEY HAVE A LOT OF FACT INO CO R MMS ON JUST LIKE CARPENTER WOULD USE A LOT OF THE SAME TOOLS Q. ONLY ONE WAY YOU CAN CUT TRANSITE RIGHT A. RIGHT Q. AND TO THAT'S CUT IT A. THAT'S RIGHT OBJECTION 10 MS ALITO I HAVE TO OBJECT TO THE 11 FORM OF THAT QUESTION WHICH I THINK WAS -- 12 MR JACOBY WHAT WAS WRONG WITH THAT 13 QUESTION 14 MS ALITO THERE'S -- I OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT QUESTION AND MR MORGAN 16 PLEASE TAKE EACH QUESTION THAT'S ASKED TO YOU AS A 17 SERIOUS QUESTION AND NOT JUST BECAUSE MR JACOBY 18 IS ~- BECAUSE WE'RE IN A RELAXED ATMOSPHERE -- 19 THE WITNESS ALL RIGHT 20 MR JACOBY I DON'T THINK WE NEED 21 ANY MORE INSTRUCTIONS AT THIS POINT OKAY THIS IS A DEPOSITION 23 24 ONE THE WITNESS I'LL TRY TO USE THAT 25 OBJECTION MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY 90 MR JACOBY THE BELL HAS RUNG AND THIS IS A DEPOSITION AND I'M GOING TO STATE MY OBJECTION MOST STRENUOUSLY ON THE RECORD THAT YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE / INSTRUCT MR MORGAN AS I'M EXAMINING HIM I'LL INSTRUCT YOU AGAIN IF YOU DON'T KNOW OR YOU DISAGREE I WANT YOU TO TELL ME OKAY I'M NOT HERE TO TRICK YOU OR DECEIVE YOU I WANT TO KNOW WHAT YOU KNOW MR MORGAN OKAY 10 MS ALITO MR JACOBY I HAVE THE 11 SAME END AND I HAVE A CONCERN WHEN I SEE AN 12 INDUSTRIAL HYGIENIST AGREE IN A LIGHTHEARTED WAY 13 THERE'S ONLY WAY TO CUT TRANSITE BOARD THAT'S 14 NOT HIS AREA OF EXPERTISE I WANT TO MAKE CERTAIN 15 THAT MR MORGAN CONSIDERS YOUR QUESTIONS AND 16 ANSWERS THEM TO THE BEST OF HIS KNOWLEDGE AND TO 17 THE FULLEST OF HIS KNOWLEDGE 18 MR JACOBY HE HAS NO AREA OF 19 EXPERTISE IN THIS DEPOSITION I DON'T MEAN THAT IN A DISPARAGING WAY YOU'RE NOT AN EXPERT AS FAR 21 AS I'M CONCERNED 22 BY MR JACOBY 23 24 25 Q. THESE RECOMMENDATIONS THAT YOU TOLD US ABOUT THAT YOU MADE WHILE IN THE NAVY SIR -- A. YES MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY 91 Q. -- DID YOU EVER MAKE ANY OF THESE RECOMMENDATIONS IN YOUR CAPACITY AS AN INDUSTRIAL HYGIENIST FOR DUPONT A. WITH RESPECT TO ASBESTOS EXPOSURES Q. YES SIR A. I THINK I'VE INDICATED TO YOU BEFORE THAT I WAS NOT DIRECTLY INVOLVED WITH THOSE KINDS OF INVESTIGATIONS IN THE DUPONT COMPANY Q. BUT YOU'RE AWARE OF WHAT WAS HAPPENING 10 THROUGH ALL THESE DOCUMENTS THAT WE'VE BEEN 11 DISCUSSING THIS MORNING IN REGARD TO ASBESTOS IS 12 THAT CORRECT 13 A. YES AND I WAS ALSO AWARE THAT THERE WERE 14 OTHER CAPABLE PEOPLE IN THE DUPONT COMPANY WHO HAD | 15 DIRECT RESPONSIBILITY 16 Q. ALL RIGHT AND DID IT EVER CROSS YOUR MIND 17 OR WERE YOU EVER PROMTPED TO SAY WELL WAIT A 18 MINUTE I'VE HAD SOME EXPERIENCE WITH ASBESTOS 19 LET ME PUT A MEMO OUT AS TO MY THOUGHTS 20 A. I DON'T RECALL EVER DOING THAT 21 Q. DO YOU RECALL EVER WANTING TO DO THAT 22 A. IN A LARGE WAY I DID THAT BY WORKING ON THIS 23 CONFERENCE PUTTING IT TOGETHER AND SO THAT 24 INFORMATION COULD BE SPREAD OUT THROUGHOUT THE 25 COMPANY MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY 92 1 2 I UNDERSTAND SIR BUT MY POINT WHICH IS 2 NOT VERY DIFFICULT TO PERCEIVE WAS THAT THIS 3 CONFERENCE OCCURRED IN 1970. YOU WORKED FOR THE 4 NAVY IN 1942. THAT'S A LOT OF TIME 5 A. WELL THAT KIND OF COMPARISON IS IRRELEVANT 6 TO MY EXPERIENCE IN THE DUPONT COMPANY AND MY 7 SPECIFIC DUTIES 8 MS ALITO MR MORGAN PLEASE 9 CONFINE YOURSELF TO ANSWERING MR JACOBY'S 10 QUESTION 11 BY MR JACOBY 12 13 14 15 16 Q. THIS CONFERENCE IN 1970 WAS GEARED WAS IT NOT TO ASSESSING THE PROBLEM OF ASBESTOS TO BRING PEOPLE TOGETHER TO DISCUSS THE PROBLEM A. I THINK YOU CAN GET THE ANSWER TO THAT IN MY LETTER TO ZAPP 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. YOUR LETTER TO ZAPP WELL LET'S CONFINE OURSELVES TO THE SECOND PAGE OF THIS EXHIBIT SIR OKAY THE FIRST PARAGRAPH AFTER THE QUOTE YOU MADE AS YOU WELL APPRECIATE ASBESTOS AND ASBESTOS PRODUCTS ARE WIDELY USED WITHIN THE DUPONT COMPANY THERE HAS BEEN A LACK OF A UNIFIED PROGRAM FOR THE APPRAISAL OF DUSTINESS AND FOR CONTROLLING THE INHALATION OF ASBESTOS WAS THAT STATEMENT SIR TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals em em mek 8k we Om am i -~ MORGAN - JACOBY 93 ACCURATE WHEN YOU MADE IT IN 1970 THAT THERE WAS A LACK OF A UNIFIED PROGRAM FOR THE APPRAISAL OF DUSTINESS AND FOR THE CONTROLLING OF THE INHALATION OF ASBESTOS A. IT'S TRUE IT WAS TRUE AT THAT TIME 2 DON'T YOU THINK IT WAS KIND OF LATE IN THE DAY FOR THE LACK OF A UNIFIED PROGRAM A. NO NOT IN VIEW OF THE MANNER IN WHICH DUPONT CONDUCTED ITS BUSINESS RESPONSIBILITY WAS 10 SPREAD AROUND TO DIFFERENT SITES AND LOCATIONS AND 11 DEPARTMENTS 12 Q. 13 A. I UNDERSTAND AND THAT WAS NOT ALWAYS A UNIFIED APPROACH 14 TO A PARTICULAR PROBLEM 15 Q. 16 A. I SEE IN THIS CASE IT SEEMED DESIRABLE TO BRING 17 ABOUT SOME UNIFICATION 18 Q. AND THIS SIR IS NOTWITHSTANDING THE FACT 19 THAT DR STOPPS HAD STARTED WRITING ABOUT THE 20 HAZARDS OF ASBESTOS TO YOU IN 1965 THIS IS FIVE 21 YEARS LATER 22 A. IS THAT A QUESTION 23 Q. YEAH I STARTED NOTWITHSTANDING THE FACT 24 YOU TOLD ME ABOUT THE DIVERSE DECISION MAKING 25 MECHANISM AND SO ON AND MY QUESTION TO YOU SIR MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY 94 IS ISN'T 1970 A LITTLE LATE IN THE DAY WHEN YOU RECEIVED WORD FROM DR STOPPS IN 1965 THAT IN HIS OPINION THERE WERE PEOPLE IN TROUBLE OBJECTION MS ALITO OBJECTION ASKED AND ANSWERED AND OBJECTION I DON'T THINK DR STOPPS EVER SAID THERE ARE PEOPLE IN TROUBLE MR JACOBY OH HE SAID IT ALL RIGHT 10 11 12 13 14 15 THE WITNESS A MATTER LIKE THIS IS NEVER TAKEN CARE OF IN ONE FELL SWOOP THE FACT THAT STOPPS WAS MAKING RECOMMENDATIONS BACK IN WHATEVER YEAR YOU SAID '65 AND THIS CONFERENCE WAS HELD IN 1970 DOES NOT INDICATE THAT NOTHING WAS BEING DONE IN THE INTERIM 16 BY MR JACOBY 17 18 19 20 22 23 2 MY WHOLE PURPOSE FOR COMING HERE TODAY WAS TO FIND OUT WHAT WAS BEING DONE IN THE INTERIM I DIDN'T MEAN TO IMPLY NOTHING WAS BEING DONE IF YOU LOOK AT THE WORDS IT SAYS THERE WAS NO UNIFIED PROGRAM FOR THE APPRAISAL OF ASBESTOS DUST AND I JUST WANT TO KNOW IF IN 1970 THAT WAS THE STATE OF THE SITUATION 24 25 25 ANSWERED MS ALITO OBJECTION ASKED AND - MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals Oo =GL 44 @ %48 aah eo Ge aoewemam i MORGAN - JACOBY 95 MR JACOBY THAT BY MR JACOBY YOU DON'T HAVE TO ANSWER Q NOW SIR YOU'VE TOLD US BRIEFLY ABOUT YOUR EXPERIENCES IN THE NAVY AND THE RECOMMENDATIONS THAT YOU'VE MADE AND SO ON OKAY NOW DO YOU SEE IN THE SECOND PARAGRAPH HERE WHERE IT SAYS CONCERNING THE WIDESPREAD USE OF ASBESTOS IN THE DUPONT COMPANY IT IS A FACT THAT IN CHEMICAL 10 PROCESSING ASBESTOS IS ALMOST UBIQUITOUS DO YOU 11 SEE THAT SIR 12 A. YES 13 Q. SO CLEARLY YOU WERE AWARE THAT ASBESTOS WAS 14 BEING USED 15 A. I WAS 16 Q. OKAY SURE NOW A LITTLE FURTHER DOWN IS 17 WHAT I'M GETTING TO IS FABRICATED WITHIN SHOPS 18 ON DUPONT PLANTS IS INSTALLED AND EVENTUALLY IS 19 REMOVED COULD YOU JUST TAKE A MINUTE AND READ 20 THE REST OF THAT PARAGRAPH 21 A. YES 22 Q. NOW SIR THIS PARAGRAPH WOULD YOU AGREE 23 SIMPLY CLEARLY INDICATES THAT YOU KNEW THAT PEOPLE 24 WERE RIPPING OUT ASBESTOS IS THAT CORRECT 25 A. YES MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals 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~ LET ME REPHRASE THAT 20 YOUR PURPOSE IN ASKING THIS 21 CONFERENCE CONFERENCE 22 A. I THINK IT'S CLEARLY STATED ONE OF THESE 23 IT SEEMS TO ME THAT THE SUBJECT MERITS A 24 SCALE EFFORT ON OUR PART TO BRING TOGETHER 25 THOSE WHO ARE INTERESTED AND CONCERNED WITH THIS MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY 97 PROFOR R ASLU ONM G CONFEIR N WE HIN CHC THEE SUBIECT SUBIECT COULD BE THOROUGHLY REVIEWED BESIDES HELPING THE PEOPLE THAT HAVE ALREADY MADE INQUIRIES IT WOULD CONVERGE OUR TIME BY ae ANTICIPATION OF NEEDS OF OTHERS AND INVITING THEM add AM TO PARTICIPATE IN THE SESSION Q. FOR HOW LONG SIR DID YOU BELIETV HAE T THE SUBJECT MER A SI CAT LBE EffD ort A. I DON'T RECALL THE DATE WHEN IT FIRST DAWNED 10 ON ME 11 Q. GIVE ME SOME PERIOD OF TIME EARLY 60'S 12 60'S ANY TIME THAT YOU CAN PIN DOWN FOR ME 13 A. IT WAS SOMETIME PRIOR TO NOVEMBER OF 1968 14 WHICH WAS THE DATE WHEN I WRO THIT S OE UT Q. DIDN'T YOU REALLY HAVE THAT OPINION BACK IN .. 16 YOUR DAYS ASBESTOS WASN'T A NEW CONCEPT TO 17 YOU 18 A OPI DAYN S HADI THE O OPINN ION 19 PROS MRS POTENTIALLY HAZARDOUS MATERIAL THAT 20 REQUIR CATTENTION CATTENTION 21 Q. AND YOU MADE CONCRETE PROPOS FOA R L ITS S 22 CONTROL ANDREMOVAL 23 A. THAT WAS MY JOB 24 25 Q I UNDERSTAND THAT SIR I'M NOT IMPUTING YOU IN ANY WAY I WANT TO KNOW WHAT YOU KNEW AND MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY 98 WHEN YOU KNEW IT AND YOURECOGNIZBE ACD K IN 42 WHEN YOU WERE IN THE THAT ASBESTOS HAD TO BE CONTROLLED IS THAT CORRECT A. THAT'S CORRECT Q. BUT NOW YOU ARE HERE IN 1970 SAYING THIS SUBJECT MERITS FULL SCALE CONSIDERATION OKAY A. YES Q. AND ALL I'M TRYING TO DO IS FIND OUT IF IT'S BETWEEN 42 AND '68 WHEN YOU PINPOINTED IT A MINUTE AGO WHEN DID YOU COME TO THIS CONCLUSION THAT THE CONTROL OF ASBESTOS DUST IS A SUBJECT THAT MERITS FULL SCALE CONSIDERATION A. THAT CONCLUSION WOULD HAVE COME ABOUT AS A RESULT OF MANY DIFFERENT THINGS THAT WERE HAPPENING AND HAD BEEN BROUGHT TO OUR ATTENTION 16 I DON'T KNOW A DATE I DON'T KNOW AN EXACT TIME 17 Q. OKAY 18 A. THE -- THAT'S ENOUGH 19 Q. HAD YOU COME TO THE CONCLUSIONS THAT THERE 20 WERE PEOPLE IN THE INSTALLATION SHOPS AT DUPONT 21 WHO WERE DOING PRECISELY AND I USE THE WORD 22 PRECISELY I UNDERSCORE THAT WORD FOR YOU SIR 23 THE SAME THINGS THEY WERE DOING AT The 24 INSTALLATION SHOPS IN THE NAVY 25 A. THEY WERE NOT THE SAME MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI ^ NC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY 99 Q. AND HOW WERE THEY DIFFERENT A. DUPONT HAD A LONG HISTORY OF A VERY EXTENSIVE SAFETY PROGRAM MAKING USE OF ADVANCE KNOWLEDGE AND EXPERIENCE THE SAME WAS NOT TRUE OF THE CONTRACT SHIPYARDS IN 1942 SO THAT WORKING CONDITIONS WERE NOT THE SAME Q. CAN YOU BE SPECIFIC A NO 2 JUST THAT YOUR RELIANCE UPON THE DUPONT 10 STANDARDS AND REPUTATION OR WHATEVER ELSE FOR 11 OCCUPATION -- CONCERN FOR OCCUPATIONAL SAFETY AND 12 HEALTH IS THAT CORRECT 13 A. THAT'S PART OF IT YEAH 14 Q. DO YOU KNOW WHAT NAPHTHYLAMINE IS 15 A. YES 16 Q. 17 A. WHAT IS IT IT'S AN AROMATIC HYDROCARBON 18 Q. 19 A. CAPABLE OF CAUSING BLADDER CANCER IT HAS THE ATHINO GROUP IN THE BETA POSITION 20 1 YEAH 21 Q. AND CAPABLE OF CAUSING BLADDER CANCER 22 A. YES 23 0 ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH HOW MUCH BLADDER 24 CANCER IT CAUSES IN DUPONTS 25 A. NO MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY 100 Q. IF I TOLD YOU SEVERAL HUNDRED WOULD THAT SOUND RIGHT A. I THINK SO Q. ARE YOU FAMILIAR AT ALL WITH DUPONT HISTORY WITH REGARD TO THE SUPPRESSION OF NAPHTHYLAMINE OBJECTION MS ALITO OBJECTION TO THE FORM OF THE QUESTION IT ASSUMES THE FACT THAT ISN'T SO 10 MR JACOBY I'LL STATE FOR THE 11 RECORD IT ASSUMES A FACT THAT WILL BE PROVEN AT 12 TRIAL THE RULES SAY I LIVE OR DIE WHEN I ASK THE 13 WITNESS TO ASSUME AND I'M PERFECTLY PREPARED TO DO 14 THAT 15 MS ALITO IF YOU'D LIKE MR 16 MORGAN TO ANSWER THAT QUESTION WHY DOESN'T THE 17 COURT REPORTER READ IT BACK 18 DESIGNATED QUESTION IS READ 19 THE WITNESS I'M NOT AWARE OF ANY 20 SUPPRESSION YOU MEAN CONTROL OF THE RISK 21 BY MR JACOBY Q. CONTROL OF THE PEOPLE WRITING AHOUT THE 23 RISK 24 A. 25 Q. I'M NOT AWARE OF THAT SO OTHER THAN DUPONT'S REPUTATION FOR MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY 10 CONCERN FOR INDUSTRIAL HEALTH AND SAFETY - STRIKE THAT YOU'VE ANSWERED THAT NOW SIR LOOKING A LITTLE FURTHER INTO THIS EXHIBIT I DON'T KNOW HOW ELSE TO DESCRIBE IT TO YOU I DON'T SEE A PAGE WHERE IT SAYS ASBESTOS CONFERENCE ON THE TOP DO YOU SEE THAT A. YES MS ALITO THERE'S A NUMBER AT THE BOTTOM I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S LEGIBLE 10 BY MR JACOBY 11 Q. IT'S UNDERLINED IT SAYS ASBESTOS 12 CONFERENCE JUST LIKE THAT 13 A. YEAH I SEE 14 Q. AND IF YOU'LL GO DOWN TO WHERE IT SAYS THE 15 PURPOSE OF THE CONFERENCE 16 A. YES 2 NO ACTUALLY I WANT YOU ON THE NEXT PAGE 18 THE PAGE AFTER THAT SIR 19 A. 20 Q. LET ME READ THIS WHILE I'M AT IT YES SURE 21 A. OKAY WE'RE DOWN TO PURPOSE OF THE 22 CONFERENCE 23 Q. YEAH AND AGAIN NOT TO BELABOR THE POINT 24 SIR BUT IN YOUR OWN WORDS YOURECOGNIZ WHE ATD .- 25 YOU HAD WAS AN INTELLIGENT CONCERN ABOUT THE MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY PROBLEMS OF ASBESTOS SINCE THE DECADE OF , 102 THAT CONCERN - BEING WITHIN THE MEDICAL INDUSTRIAL MANAGEMENT LABOR UNIONS GOVERNMENT AGENCIES INDEPENDENT SCIENTIFIC INVESTIGATORS IS THAT CORRECT SIR A. THAT'S CORRECT OTHERWISE I WOULDN'T HAVE WRITTIETN Q. NOW SIR RIGHT UNDERNEATH THAT YOU HAVE FIVE SUBJECTS TO BE DISCUSSED AT THE CONFERENCE 10 DO YOU SEE THAT 11 A. YES 12 Q. AND THE NEXT LITTLE PARAGRAPH YOU SAY THE 13 CONFERENCE WOULD PRESENT AN EXPOSITION OF THE 14 FIRST FOUR OF THESE ASPECTS 15 A. YES 16 Q. NOW THE FIFTH ONE SAYS COMPENSATION OF 17 EMPLOYEES FOR DISEASE PRODUCED BY ASBESTOS 18 INHALATION WHAT DID YOU MEAN BY THAT 19 A. UP ABOVE BEFORE WE REACH THE FIVE ITEMS IT 20 SAYS THERE ARE EXPERTS ON EACH OF THE MAJOR 21 ASPECTS OF THE PROBLEM 22 Q. RIGHT 23 A. AND COMPENSATION OF EMPLOYEES IS ONE OF THE 24 MAJOR ASPECTS OF ANY IN OCCUPATIONAL DISEASE PROBLEMS MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY 103 Q. RIGHT A. INCLUDING ASBESTOS Q. MY QUESTION TO YOU IS - PERHAPS I DIDN'T ARTICULATE IT RIGHT UNDERNEATH IT YOU SAID THE CONFERENCE WOULD PRESENT AN EXPOSTION OF THE FIRST FOUR OF THESE ASPECTS SO THAT DUPONT NEEDS COULD BE RECOGNIZED AND DEALT WITH IN A UNIFIED MANNER BUT YOU DON'T HAVE LIST AS I UNDERSTAND IT PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG AS FAR AS THE 10 FIFTH ITEM COMPENSATION OF EMPLOYEES WAS NOT TO BE 1 DISCUSSED 12 A. IT WAS NOT TO BE DISCUSSED 13 Q. MY QUESTION IS WHY 14 A. IN A CONFERENCE OF THIS NATURE YOU BRING 15 TOGETHER PEOPLE WHO ARE AN EXPERT IN THEIR FIELD 16 AND THERE'S A LOT OF SIMILARITY IN ITEMS ONE 17 THROUGH FOUR BUT ITEM FIVE WOULBDE HANDLED IN THE 18 DUPONT COMPANY BY AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT GROUP OF 19 PEOPLE 20 Q. I SEE 21 A. THE LEGAL DEPARTMENT AND THE FINANCIAL 22 PEOPLE AND THE MEDICAL 2 I SEE WHEN YOU SENT THIS OUT ON FEBRUARY 24 THE 2ND 1970 DID YOU HAVE AN OPINION AS TO 25 WHETHER OR NOT COMPENSATION OF EMPLOYEES FOR MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY 104 DISEASE PRODUCED BY ASBESTOS INHALATION WAS PART IN PART OF THE ASBESTOS PROBLEM A. YES THAT'S WHAT I JUST SAID AMONG THE DIFFERENT ASPECTS I LISTED IT Q. IT IS YOUR OPINION THAT THAT WAS THE SUBJECT THAT MERITED DISCUSSION ALTHOUGH NOT AT THIS CONFERENCE A. NOT AT THIS CONFERENCE RIGHT Q. WHEN DID YOU COME TO THAT CONCLUSION THAT 10 COMPENSATION TO BE SECURED FOR EMPLOYEES WAS A 11 SUBJECT THAT NEEDED TO BE DISCUSSED A. I DON'T KNOW 13 Q. SOMETIME PRIOR TO 1970 14 A. YEAH IN ALL MY EXPERIENCE IN DEALING WITH 15 OCCUPATIONAL DISEASE COMPENSATION OF AN INJURED 16 EMPLOYEE WAS ALWAYS A FACTOR TO BE CONSIDERED 17 2 AND THEN FURTHER ON DOWN THE PAGE YOU BREAK 18 IT DOWN AN A. AND A B. IF I'M AHEAD OF YOU TELL 19 ME I'LL GIVE YOU A CHANCE TO CATCH UP AND A. 20 TO BE PRESENTED AT THE CONFERENCE AND B. TO BE 21 DISCUSSED BY DUPONT PERSONNEL 22 A. YES 23 " AND THEN RIGHT AT THE END OF THE PAGE SIR 24 YOU SAY IT WOULD NOT BE NECESSARY FOR THEM TO 25 PARTICIPATE IN PART B. AND IN FACT ADVANTAGES MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY ARE FORESEEN IN LIMITING ATTENDANCE AT PART B. / UNAUTHORIZED DUPONT PERSONNEL AND PART B. IS ON THE NEXT PAGE YOU CAN READ IT FOR YOURSELF WHAT ADVANTAGES DID YOU FORESEE IN LIMITING PART B. OF THIS CONFERENCE TO AUTHORIZED DUPONT PERSONNEL ONLY 105 A. IN MY CREATIVE EFFORT IN PLANNING THIS CONFERENCE I DECIDED THAT THE COMPANY WOULD PROFIT FROM BY BRINGING IN EXPERTS OUTSIDE WHO HAVE GREAT 10 REPUTATIONS IN DIFFERENT ASPECTS OF IT THEY WERE 11 IN PART A. TO IMPART THE INFORMATION THAT WE 12 REQUESTED OF THEM TO THE BEST OF THEIR KNOWLEDGE 13 AND THAT THERE WAS TIME FOR DISCUSSION OF WHAT 14 15 16 17 18 THEY SPOKE ABOUT IN PART A. THERE WAS NO NEED TO KEEP THOSE EXPERTS HERE ON THIS SITE BEYOND OUR ACTUAL NEED OF THEM BUT THERE WAS A NEED TO BRING TOGETHER THE DUPONT PEOPLE TO TALK ABOUT STEPS TO BE TAKEN TO EXECUTE RECOMMENDATIONS 19 Q. PART FOUR OF PART B NUMBER FOUR OF PART B. 20 WHERE IT SAYS MEDICAL STUDIES TO CORRELATE 21 ENVIRONMENTAL CONDITION OF DUPONT WORKERS DO YOU 22 SEE THAT PART OF PART B. THAT'S FOR AUTHORIZED DUPONT PERSONNEL ONLY WAS TALKING ABOUT IT WAS AKIN TO WHAT STOPPS A. SIMILAR TO IT YES MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN ~- JACOBY 106 Q. AND YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT HAPPENED IN THAT REGARD BETWEEN WHEN STOPPS TALKED ABOUT IT AND YOU ASKED THAT IT BE DISCUSSED AT THIS CONFERENCE A. THIS MAY HAVE BEEN AN ATTEMPT AT UPDATING THE APPROACH THAT HAD BEEN WORKED UPON AFTER STOPPS RECOMMENDATION Q. AND WHAT APPROACH WAS THAT A. I DON'T KNOW BUT YOU'RE ASKING ME IF THAT IS A POSSIBLE REASON WHY THERE WOULD BE A 10 DISCUSSION AT THIS TIME OF SOMETHING THAT HAD BEEN 11 PROPOSED EARLIER HIS EARLY RECOMMENDATIONS YOU 12 KNOW WERE MADE ON THE BASIS OF KNOWLEDGE THAT WAS 13 NOT AS COMPLETE AS IT WOULD HAVE BEEN IN 1970 14 AFTER THESE EXPERTS CAME AND TALKED TO US 15 Q. 16 A. WOULD YOU SAY THAT -THEY MAY HAVE HAD SOMETHING TO TELL US THAT 17 NEEDED TO BRING ABOUT A CHANGE IN WHAT WAS BEING 18 DONE 19 Q. DID YOU PREPARE THESE AGENDA ITEMS YOURSELF 20 SIR 21 A. I DID I WOULDN'T SAY THAT I DID IT ALONE 22 I WAS IN CONSULTATION WITH MANY OTHERS 2 AND YOU RECOGNIZED THEN IN 1970 THE NEED FOR 24 MEDICAL STUDIES 25 A. POSSIBLE NEED YES MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY Q. POSSIBLE NEED A. SURE Q. OKAY PLACE NOW THIS CONFERENCE IN FACT TOOK A. THE YOU NOTICE INCIDENCE OF IN PART A. THERE'S AN ASBESTOS DISEASES AND ITEM HERE DISTRIBUTION OF CASES SO THAT MIGHT HAVE FURNISHED THE BASIS FOR FURTHER DISCUSSION OF THE MEDICAL APPROACH 10 Q. NOW THIS CONFERENCE TOOK PLACE IN MAY OF 11 1970 IS THAT CORRECT 12 A. YES 13 Q. 14 A. AND YOU I THINK PARTICIPATED IN THE CONFERENCE I DID WE DON'T HAVE NAMES OF 15 SPEAKERS HERE 16 17 18 19 20 21 Q. I THINK YOU SPOKE ON MINEROLOGY COME UP IN ONE OF THE LATER DOCUMENTS DON'T REMEMBER JUST TELL ME THAT MAY IF YOU A. I REMEMBER THE CONFERENCES THIS ONE BEING ON THE PROGRAM FOR ONE OF I WASN'T SURE WHETHER IT WAS 22 e MY QUESTIONS NOW ARE ONLY CONFINED TO THE 23 '70 CONFERENCE 24 A. OKAY 25 Q. NOT '72 OR 174. OKAY WE'LL GET TO IT MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY 108 as RECALL SIR THATONE ATTONS THAT CAME OUT OF THIS 1970 WAS THAT WORKERS WHO WERE EXPOSED TO ., ASBESTOS BE TOLD THAT THEY WERE AT RISK OF VARIOUS DISEASES THAT THEY'D BE TOLD IN SUCH A WAY THAT THERE WOULD NOT BE THE CAUSING OF UNDUE ALARM A. YES 3" RECALL THAT ye ada ada Q. DO YOU RECALL THE DISCUSSIONS LEADING TO a TO 10 THAT RECOMMENDATION OF THE CONFERENCE tl 11 A NO I DON'T 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 Q. IN YOUR MIND WHAT LED YOU TO BELIEVE AT THIS 1970CONFTE HATR EE XPN OC SEE D TO ASBESTOS SHOULD NOW BE TOLD THAT THEY WERE IN A POTENTIALLY HAZARDOUS OCCUPATIONAL ENVIRONMENT A. THAT IN GENERAL IS PRINCIPLE IN HYGIENE HYGIENE THAT AN INFORMED WORKER IS BETTER ABER PARTIC INI HIP S PA ROTT ECTE ION ON IF HE'S NOT INFOR TM HAE TD SA 21 22 Q. HOW LONG HAD YOU HELD THIS PRINCIPLE TO BE VALID 23 A. FROM MY EARLY DAYS IN INDUSTRIAL HYGIENE 24 1942 25 Q. SO WOULD I BE CORRECT SIR IN SAYING IT MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN -- JACOBY 109 WASN'T IN 1970 THAT YOU CAME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT AN INFORMED WORKER IS BETTER THAN UNINFORMED A. NO Q. AND IT WAS YOUR CONCLUSION THAT THE WORKER. BE INFORMED SPECIFIC ASARL EGL ARY D TO ASBESTOS ? EXPOSURE A. I THINK I STATED THAT MY RECOMMENDATION YES Q. AND WHAT WAS YOUR KNOWLEDGE SIR AS TO WHAT 10 11 AS OF THE DATE OF THIS CONFERENCE MAY OF 1970 12 A. I KNEW THAT EFFORTS WERE BEING MADE BUT I 13 DON'T HAVE ANY SPECIFIC RECOLLECTION OF SPECIFIC 14 MEASURES THAT WERE BEING TAKEN AT ANY GIVEN 15 LOCATION 16 Q. OKAY NOW I THINK I MAY HAVE SKIPPED AN 17 EXHIBIT HERE YEAH I'M GOING TO GO TO THE ONE 18 THAT SAYS ASBESTOS CONFERENCE IT LOOKS LIKE 19 THIS SIR AND IT'S A MEMORANDUM THAT YOU HAVE PREPARED -- A. TO REINHARDT Q. YEAH TO REINHARDT THAT'S DATED MARCH THE 23 9TH 1970. IT'S DATED - YEAH AND UNDERNEATH 24 ASHESTOS CONFERENCE IT SAYS CONVERSATION WITH R.T. 25 DE TREVILLE MARCH 4 1970 DO YOU SEE THAT SIR MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals A. | Q. A. Q. A. MORGAN - JACOBY 110 YES WILL YOU JUST READ ALOUD THE EXHIBIT NUMBER P MORGAN OKAY YES DO YOU NEED A MINUTE TO LOOK AT THAT BRIEF RECESS BY MR JACOBY Q. NOW AS OF THE TIME OF THIS MEMORANDUM MARCH THE 9TH 1970 MR MORGAN WERE YOU AWARE OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT'S INVOLVEMENT IN SETTING STANDARDS FOR CONTROL OF ASBESTOS DUST A. NO Q. TOWARDS THE BOTTOM OF THE SECOND PARAGRAPH 14 WHERE YOU STATE HE THINKS THAT THIS KIND OF 15 INFORMATION SHOULD BE AVAILABLE IN CONNECTION WITH 16 THE GOVERNMENT'S EXPECTED INTEREST ON OBTAINING 17 DATA IN COMPLIANCE WITH HEALTH AND SAFETY LAWS DO 18 YOU SEE THAT SECOND PARAGRAPH IT SAYS HE 19 THINKS 20 A. OH YEAH KIND OF INFORMATION .. . IT WAS 21 DURING THAT PERIOD OF TIME THAT CONGRESS HAD 22 BEFORE IT PROPOSALS FOR AN OCCUPATIONAL SAFETY AND 23 HEALTH ACT AND THAT MAY BE WHAT PROMPTED THIS 24 Q. IN THE COURSE OF YOUR EMPLOYMENT WITH DUPONT 25 DID YOU INVOLVE YOURSELF AT ALL IN THOSE PROPOSED MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY 111 STANDARDS OR IN THE GOVERMENTAL COMMITTEE DISCUSSIONS CONCERNING THE OCCUPATIONAL SAFETY AND HEALTH ACT A. MY INVOLVEMENT DIDN'T COME UNTIL AFTER THE ACT WAS PASSED AND MY OBLIGATION OF ADVISING THE DEPARTMENT OF LABOR ON STANDARDS AND THEN I WAS CALLED IN Q. DID YOU SPEAK IN FAVOR OF STANDARDS OR AGAINST THEM 10 A. WHICH ONES 11 Q. THE STANDARDS THAT WERE IN FACT INITIATED 12 IN 1972 13 14 A. I BY THAT TIME WAS A PARTICIPANT IN THE ACGHIT COMMITTEE AND THAT COMMITTEE AND THE 15 ACGIH STILL HELD STRONGLY TO THE OPINION THAT 16 THESE RECOMMENDED THRESHOLD LIMIT VALUES SHOULD 17 NOT BE ENACTED INTO LAW AND THEY WERE 18 Q. WAS THAT ALSO YOUR OPINION 19 20 21 A. IT WAS MY OPINION YES Q. AND WHY DID YOU FEEL THAT THEY SHOULD NOT BE ENACTED INTO LAW 22 23 A. BECAUSE WHEN THEY WERE ENACTED INTO LAW THEY IMMEDIATELY BECOME EXACTLY WHAT THEY ARE NOT 24 24 INTENDED TO BE SHARP LINES OF DEMARCATION BETWEEN 25 SAFE AND UNSAFE MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY 112 e SIR IN THE LAST PARAGRAPH OF THIS EXHIBIT YOU TALK ABOUT THE IHF AND A SEMINAR THAT YOU SAY I ATTENED ABOUT A YEAR HALF AGO DO YOU SEE THAT SIR A. YES Q. AND A LITTLE FURTHER PART OF THE PROCEEDINGS I TAKE IT OF THAT SEMINAR CONSISTED OF AN ADDRESS BY AN EPIDEMIOLOGIST DR ENTERLINE OF PITTSBURGH DO YOU SEE THAT 10 A. YES 11 Q. 12 A. IN FACT YOU DID ATTEND THAT IHF SEMINAR YES 13 Q. 14 A. YOU HEARD DR ENTERLINE SPEAK YES 15 Q. YOU HEARD DR ENTERLINE GIVE THE RESULTS OF 16 HIS STUDIES CONCERNING ASBESTOS RELATED HEALTH 17 PROBLEMS 18 A. I DID HEAR HIM I DON'T RECALL AT THE 19 MOMENT JUST WHAT HE COVERED IN HIS TALK THAT DAY 20 Q. DO YOU RECALL WHETHER OR NOT HE DISCUSSED IN 21 GREAT DETAIL THE FACT THAT PEOPLE WITH VERY 22 MINIMAL EXPOSURE TO ASBESTOS WERE AT RISK OF 23 DEVELOPING ASBESTOS DISEASE 24 A. I DON'T HAVE A DISTINCT RECOLLECTION OF WHAT 25 ENTERLINE'S STUDY CONSISTED OF WHAT POPULATION HE MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN -- JACOBY 113 HAD TO WORK WITH OBVIOUSLY IT WAS SOMETHING THAT NEEDED TO BE CONSIDERED Q. SO YOU DON'T HAVE A PRESENT RECOLLECTION WHERE IT SAYS THESE DATA SHOULD BE DESCRIBED IN THE PROCEEDINGS A. THAT WOULD BE IN THE IHF PROCEEDINGS Q. YEAH THIS IS AN INDICATION THAT HIGH EXPOSURE LEVELS FOR FAIRLY BRIEF PERIODS MAY SUBSEQUENTLY RESULT IN DELETERIOUS EFFECTS WAS 10 THAT AN OPINION THAT YOU HELD IN 1970 SIR 11 A. I'M OF THE OPINION NOW THAT THAT WAS 12 ENTERLINE'S OPINION 13 Q. YES 14 A. AND THAT I FELT IT WAS WORTHWHILE TO PASS IT 15 ON TO REINHARDT BECAUSE IT CAN'T BE IGNORED 16 Q. YOU HEARD HIM EXPRESS THAT OPINION WOULD IT 17 BE FAIR TO SAY SOMETIME IN 1978 I'M JUST GOING 18 BACK A YEAR HALF 19 20 A I THINK SO YEAH NOW AT MEETINGS OF THIS TYPE VERY OFTEN YOU'LL HAVE AN INVESTIGATOR STATE 21 SOME RESULTS AND GIVE HIS OPINION OF IT OF THE MEANING OF THE RESULTS AND THEY'RE NOT IMMEDIATELY ACCEPTED BY EVERYBODY IN THE HALL THEY NEEDED SOME FURTHER QUESTIONING AND INVESTIGATION SO THAT THE MERE FACT THAT I PASSED ON WHAT ENTERLINE MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY 114 HAD PROPOSED TO REINHARDT DOES NOT INDICATE THAT I FULLY UNDERSTOOD WHAT HE HAD DONE OR THAT I WAS FULLY IN FAVOR OF AGREEING WITH HIM WE CAN'T PUT TOO MUCH MEANING IN 1986 ON WHAT WAS STATED AT A MEETING BACK 1968 OF FURTHER STUDY I'D WANT TO REVIEW IT AGAIN CERTAINLY 7 Q. MY QUESTION TO YOU IS THOUGH IT WAS STATED IN A MEETING THAT YOU PARTICIPATED IN A. I'D JUDGE FROM WHATI WROTE HERE THAT'S 10 CORRECT YES IT WAS IT WAS STATED 11 Q. DID YOU REGULARLY ATTEND MEETINGS AT THE 12 IHF | 13 A. PRETTY REGULARLY YEAH 14 Q. AND WERE THERE MEETINGS OR SEMINARS 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 CONDUCTED BY THE IHF RELATING EXCLUSIVELY TO ASBESTOS DISEASE TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE A. THIS FIBROUS DUST SEMINAR WAS THE NEAREST IT GOT TO THAT AND IT WASN'T EXCLUSIVELY ASBESTOS IT WAS ALL A MATTER OF FIBROUS DUST Q. WERE YOU PRIVY TO ANY OF THE PUBLICATIONS THAT WERE SENT OUT BY OF THE IHF 22 A. I RECEIVED A COPY OF THESE PROCEEDINGS 23 SOMETIME LATER 24 Q. DID YOU RECEIVE COPIES OF ANY OTHER 25 PROCEEDINGS MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals @ .@.2 2 .| @om . _ MORGAN - JACOBY A. HASKELL LABORATORIES SUBSCRIBED TO -- WERE MEMBERS OF THE INDUSTRIAL IHF AND RECEIVED THE MONTHLY INDUSTRIAL HYGIENE DIGEST AND ANY SPECIAL BULLETINS THAT CAME OUT OF THEIR INVESTIGATION SO I HAD ACCESS TO THEM 115 Q. SO YOU HAD ACCESS TO EACH AND EVERY TIME ASBESTOS STUDIES AND ANYTHING HAVING TO DO WITH ASBESTOS WOULD BE PUBLISHED BY THE IHF A. I HAD ACCESS TO IT I'M NOT SAYING YOU READ 10 IT ALL 11 Q. I KNOW I HEAR YOU ALL RIGHT LET'S GO TO 12 -- I ONLY HAVE TWO MORE EXHIBITS AND I THINK I CAN 13 DO THEM PRETTY QUICKLY THE NEXT ONE IS - IT'S 14 DATED APRIL 22ND 1970 THAT'S WHAT THE FRONT 15 16 PAGE LOOKS LIKE IT HAS A WHOLE LIST OF PEOPLE ON THE BOTTOM WHO GOT COPIES OF IT 17 A. THIS IS P MORGAN 18 19 20 21 22 Q. THIS EXHIBIT IS DATED APRIL 22ND 1970 AND I REFER YOU TO THE THIRD PAGE OF THE EXHIBIT AGAIN I'LL REPRESENT TO YOU THAT IT DEALS WITH THIS MAY 6TH AND 7TH 1970 CONFERENCE THAT WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT FOR A LITTLE WHILE 23 A. OH YEAH 24 Q. ON THE LAST PAGE IT SAYS ASBESTOS 25 CONFERENCE DO YOU SEE THAT MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY 116 A. YEAH 2 PRELIMINARY A. PRELIMINARY PROGRAM Q. YEAH DUPONT COUNTRY CLUB WILMINGTON DELAWARE AND IT HAS YOU LISTED SIR AS A SPEAKER ON QUOTE TYPES OF ASBESTOS MINERALS UNDERNEATH THAT IT HAS YOUR NAME J.F. MORGAN IS THAT CORRECT A. THAT'S CORRECT 10 Q. DOES THAT REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION SIR AS 11 TO WHETHER OR NOT YOU SPOKE AT THIS CONFERENCE ON 12 THE SUBJECT OF ASBESTOS MINERALS 13 A. YES I DID 14 Q. NOW CAN YOU RECALL AT THIS TIME THE NATURE 15 OF YOUR DISCUSSION THE NATURE OF YOUR 16 PRESENTATION 17 A. YES NOT BEINGA GEOLOGIST MINERALOLOGIST 18 I HAD TO DO SOME REVIEWING ON THE ASBESTOS 19 MINERALS AND I DID THAT AND GOT SOME ADVICE AND 20 PUT TOGETHER A DESCRIPTION OF THE DIFFERENT MEMBERS OF THE CLASS OF ASBESTOS MINERALS AND ILLUSTRATED IT WITH SOME PICTURES OF CRYSTALS AND FIBERS AND I THINK I ALSO DISCUSSED THE RELATIVE 24 AMOUNTS THAT WERE IN INDUSTRIAL USE IN THIS 25 COUNTRY AT THE PRICE OF STEEL BEING THE MOST MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY 117 COMMON 2 DO YOU RECALL THE SOURCES THAT YOU REFERRED TO GATHER THIS INFORMATION A. NO I CAN VISUALIZE SOME OF THE PAMPHLETS AND BOOKS THAT I REVIEWED e CAN YOU VERBALIZE A. I CAN'T VERBALIZE IT NO Q. ALL RIGHT DO YOU STILL HAVE ANY OF YOUR NOTES FROM THAT MEETING 10 A. I DON'T THINK SO 11 Q. DO YOU KNOW WHETHER A TRANSCRIPT WAS MADE OF 12 THAT MEETING WHETHER THERE WAS SOMEONE HERE LIKE 13 THIS YOUNG LADY A STENOGRAPHER 14 A. I DON'T RECALL THAT WE KEPT A VERBATIM 15 ACCOUNT OF IT 16 Q. DID YOU HEAR THE OTHER SPEAKERS AT THIS 17 CONFERENCE WERE YOU IN ATTENDANCE 18 A. YES I WAS 19 Q. 20 A. 21 Q. DO YOU RECALL WHAT DR STOPPS REMARKS WERE NOT SPECIFICALLY DO YOU KNOW THE AREAS THAT HE DISCUSSED 22 A. HE PROBABLY REVIEWED RECENT DEVELOPMENTS IN 23 THE KNOWLEDGE OF ASBESTOS AND ITS RELATED 24 DISEASES 25 Q. SIR IF YOU'LL REFER TO THE NEXT AND THE MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY 118 LAST EXHIBIT THAT I'M GOING TO USE NOT THAT ONE -- IT SAYS NEWPORT DELAWARE AUGUST 25TH 1970 DUPONT LOGO ON THE UPPER LEFT AND IT'S SIGNED BY D.F. REDDISH AND SLASH A.D. VOLK MS ALITO MARKED EXHIBIT P MORGAN THE WITNESS BY MR JACOBY I SEE IT Q. 10 A. DO YOU SEE THAT SIR YES 11 Q. NOW IF YOU'LL JUST TURN THE PAGE WHERE IT 12 SAYS GUIDELINES ARE -- 13 A. 14 Q. 15 A GUIDELINES ARE YES THE SECOND LITTLE DOT THERE OKAY 16 Q. IT SAYS INFORM EMPLOYEES WORKING WITH 17 ASBESTOS INSTALLATION OF THE RELATED HEALTH 18 PROBLEMS THIS SHOULD BE HANDLED WITHOUT UNDULY 19 ALARMING PEOPLE 20 DURING THE DECISIONS LEADING UP TO THIS 21 GUIDELINE -- EXCUSE ME TO THIS GUIDELINE -- THE DISCUSSIONS LEADING | UP 23 A. THOSE WOULD HAVE BEEN DISCUSSIONS ON DAY 24 TWO PART B. 25 Q. THE DUPONT PERSONNEL MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - JACOBY 119 A. YEAH AND I DON'T HAVE A DISTINCT RECOLLECTION OF WHO SAID WHAT Q. WAS THERE A CONSENSUS THAT IN FACT EMPLOYEES WORKING WITH ASBESTOS IN INSULATION BE TOLD OF THE RELATED HEALTH PROBLEMS A. IT PROBABLY WAS Q. WAS THAT YOUR FEELING THEN A. I WOULD HAVE AGREED WITH THAT FEELING Q. AGAIN SIR WHEN IN TERMS OF TIME DID YOU 10 COME TO THE DECISION THAT EMPLOYEES BE TOLD 11 A. ABOUT ASBESTOS 12 Q. YES 13 A. WELL IN THE FIRST PLACE I HAD NO EXACT 14 KNOWLEDGE OF WHO HAD BEEN TOLD AND WHO HAD NOT BEEN TOLD BUT AT THAT TIME OF THE CONFERENCE 16 MAY 5TH AND 6TH 1970 IT DID SEEM TO BE 17 WORTHWHILE TO RECOMMEND THAT THOSE WHO HAD NOT 18 BEEN INFORMEBDE INFORMED 19 2 OKAY AND DID YOU ASSUME AT THAT TIME THAT 20 THERE WERE SOME PEOPLE WHO HAD BEEN INFORMED 21 A. IT'S HARD FOR ME TO ANSWER THAT QUESTION IN 22 THE TERMS IN WHICH YOU'VE ASKED IT TO ME IT WAS 23 MORE THAN AN ASSUMPTION IT WAS KNOWLEDGE THAT AT 24 SOME PLANTS EVERYBODY WAS KEPT PRIVY OF EVERYTHING THAT WAS EFFECTING THEM IN THE WORK PLACE I KNEW MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - ALITO 120 FOR A FACT REGARDING SOME PLANTS Q. RIGHT A. BUT AS I'VE STATED BEFORE THE PROCEDURES WERE NOT UNIFORM THROUGHOUT THE COMPANY Q. YOU SAY SOME PLANTS OF THE DUPONT COMPANY -- A. YES OF THE DUPONT COMPANY Q. -- WERE TOLD OF EVERY POTENTIAL HEALTH HAZARD THAT THEY WORKED WITH THAT THE COMPANY KNEW ABOUT 10 A. YES 11 Q. PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE SIR DI^ 12 YOU OR ANYOND ANYOND YOU KNOW TELL AN INDIVIDUAL BMELOYEE BMELOYEE 13 THAT HE WAS AT RLSKe QE ASBESTOS RELATED RELATED RELATED 14 DISEASE 15 A. I KNOW NEVER IT PERSONALLY AND I DON'T 16 RECALL KNOWLEDER OF ANYONE ELSE DOING T a. any 17 MR JACOBY THANK YOU THAT'S ALL I | | - 18 HAVE 19 20 QUESTION MS ALITO I JUST HAVE ONE 21 EXAMINATOIFOMNR MORGAN BY MS ALITO 22 Q. IN MR JACOBY'S LAST QUESTION TO YOU MR 23 MORGAN HE USED THE TERM DUPONT EMPLOYEE AND 24 YOU RESPONDED TO THAT QUESTION AND I'D LIKE YOU 25 TO TELL US FOR THE RECORD HOW IN THE CONTEXT OF MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - ALITO 121 THAT QUESTION YOU DEFINE THE PHRASE DUPONT EMPLOY IN QUOTATIONS MAYBE TO GIVE YOU AN IDEA OF WHAT I'M GETTING AT ARE YOU INCLUAD LLIPEN OPG LE WHO ARE ON THE PAYROLL OFDUPOANSTA DUPONT EMPLOYEE THE CONTEXT THAT QUESTION FROM THE MEMBER OF THE BARGAINING UNIT WHO'S WORKOI UTNG OF OF THE PLANT UP TO THE PRESIDEONR T THE CONTEXT OF YOURANSW TOE THR AT QUESTION WERE DEFINING 10 AN EMPLOYEE AS JUST THE WORKER OR SOMETHING IN 11 BETWEEN 12 A. AS I RECALL THE QUESTION IT DEALT WITH 13 WHETHER I HAD PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE OFMYSELF ~ 14 INFORMING AN EMPLOYEE OF THE DUPONT COMPANY OR 15 KNOWLEDGE OF SOMEONE ELSE INFORMING AN EMPLOYEE OF 16 THE DUPONT COMPANY OF THE RISKS OF ASBESTOS 17 MR JACOBY AND I WILL DEFINE FOR 18 YOU EMPLOYEE IF I MAY TO HELP CLEAR UP THE 19 QUESTION 20 THE WITNESS FIRST OF ALL LET ME 21 ANSWER THIS QUESTION WHAT I HAD IN MIND WHEN I 22 ANSWERED THAT I DID NOT PERSONALLY INFORM AN 23 EMPLOYEE AND I DID NOT KNOW OF ANOTHER PERSON INFORMING AN EMPLOYEE I WAS THINKING OF WAGE ROLE 25 WORKERS THAT WOULD EXCLUDE TECHNICAL PEOPLE MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals MORGAN - ALITO 122 MEDICAL DOCTORS LAWYERS AND SUPERVISORS MS ALITO THANK YOU THE WITNESS DOES THAT ANSWER YOUR QUESTION MS ALITO I DIDN'T MEAN TO CUT YOU OFF THE WITNESS YOU SAID YOU WERE GOING TO DEFINE IT FOR US IF IT'S NOT NECESSARY ANYMORE -- 10 MR JACOBY LET'S COMPLETE THE 11 THOUGHT MY QUESTION TO YOU WAS NOT WHO WAS DOING 12 THE TELLING BUT WHO WAS BEING TOLD AND I SAID 13 DUPONT EMPLOYEE AND JUST TO BE CLEAR WHEN I SAY 14 DUPONT EMPLOYEE IN THE CONTEXT OF THIS QUESTION I 15 MEAN FROM THE PRESIDENT OF THE COMPANY DOWN IS 16 ANY EMPLOYEE TOLD 17 THE WITNESS OH ABSOLUTELY THE 18 WHOLE ROOM OF PEOPLE AT THE CONFERENCE WERE TOLD 19 MR JACOBY WAS ANYBODY OTHER THAN 20 THE PEOPLE IN THAT CONFERENCE TOLD 21 THE WITNESS THE PEOPLE WHO WERE AT 22 THE CONFERENCE WERE THERE SO THAT THEY COULD TAKE 23 THE MESSAGE BACK TO THEIR PLACES OF WORK AND PASS 24 IT 25 MR JACOBY OKAY THAT'S ALL I WANT MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals TO KNOW MORGAN - ALITO WITNESS EXCUSED DEPOSITION CONCLUDED 123 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 23 24 25 MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals 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ant NOTARY GRANT PUBLIC STCA.TSE.CR.S.R. OF NEW JERSEY MY COMMISSION EXPIRES 10-5-91 CERTIFICATE NO XIO1221 DATE NOVEMBER 11 1986 MASTROIANNI & FORMAROLI INC Professionals Serving Professionals