Document VJEVjZX7k095LMgjZK92e9v3Z

SUPERIOR FOR THE STATE FOR THE COUNTY I COURT OF CALIFORNIA OF LOS ANGELES TRANS WESTERN PIPELINE COMPANY, PLAINTIFF, VS . MONSANTO COMPANY, ET AL, DEFENDANTS. ) ) ) ) ) ) NO. BC 026959 ) ) ) ) i DEPOSITION OF R. APRIL 30, 1992 VOLUME 1 EMMET KELLY, M.D. G O RE REPORTING COMPANY 100 NORTH BROADWAY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 1-800-878-6750 (314) 241-6750 WATER_PCB-SD0000033293 1 SUPERIOR COURT 2 FOR THE STATE 0 F CALIFORNIA 3 FOR THE COUNTY 0 F LOS ANGELES 4 5 TRANSWESTERN PIPELINE ) 6 COMPANY, ) 7) 8 Plaintiff, ) 9) 10 vs . ) N 0 . RC 026959 11 ) 1 2 MONSANTO COMPANY AND ) 1 3 DOES 1 THROUGH 200 ) 1 4 INCLUSIVE, ) 15 ) 1 6 Defendants.) 17 1 8 Deposition of R. EMMET KELLY, M.D., 1 9 taken on behalf of the Plaintiff, at the 2 0 offices of Bryan Cave, One Metropolitan 2 1 Square, in the City of St. Louis, State of 2 2 Missouri, on the 30th day of April, 1992 2 3 before Ronald A. Gore, Registered 2 4 Professional Reporter and Notary Public. 25 , GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 2 WATER PCB-SD0000033294 1 i: APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL: 2| 6 3 FOR THE PLAINTIFF: 4 M r . James P . T a 1 1 o n She a r m a n & Sterling 6 7 2 5 South Figueroa Street 7 Los A n g e 1 e s, California 90017 8 9 Ms. Dana K. Welch 1 0 Shearman & Sterling 1 1 555 California Street 1 2 San Francisco, California 94104 13 1 4 Ms. Christie A. Patrick 1 5 Senior Counsel 1 6 Enron 1 7 Interstate Pipeline Company 1 8 1400 Smith Street 1 9 Houston, Texas 77251 2 0 FOR THE DEFENDANT MONSANTO COMPANY: 2 1 Mr . Charles F . Preuss 2 2 Bronson, Bronson & McKinnon 2 3 505 Montgomery Street 2 4 San Francisco, California 94111 25 jGORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS , MISSOURI 3 WATER PCB-SD0000033295 1. INDEX 2 3 Examination by Mr. T a 1 1 o n 4 5 6 EXHIBITS 7 8 Transwestern Exhibit 14 3 9 Transwestern Exhibit 1 4 4 1 0 Transwestern Exhibit 1 4 5 1 1 Transwestern Exhibit 1 4 6 1 2 Transwestern Exhibit 1 4 7 1 3 Transwestern Exhibit 1 4 8 1 4 Transwestern Exhibit 1 4 9 1 5 Transwestern Exhibit 15 0 1 6 Transwestern Exhibit 1 5 1 1 7 Transwestern Exhibit 15 2 1 8 Transwestern Exhibit 1 5 3 1 9 Transwestern Exhibit 15 4 2 0 Transwestern Exhibit 1 5 5 2 1 Transwestern Exhibit 1 5 6 2 2 Transwestern Exhibit 1 5 7 2 3 Transwestern E x h i b i t 1 5 8 2 4 Transwestern Exhibit 1 5 9 2 5 Transwestern Exhibit 16 0 v PAGE 6 64 75 82 86 87 98 102 105 1 06 111 1I 2 119 13 1 13 8 145 14 7 152 15 8 |GO R E REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 4 WATER_PCB-SD0000033296 1 Transwestern Exhibit 1 6 1 2 Transwestern Exhibit 1 6 2 l 3 Transwestern Exhibit 16 3 4 Transwestern Exhibit 1 6 4 5 Transwestern Exhibit 1 6 5 6 Transwestern Exhibit 16 6 7 Transwestern Exhibit 1 6 7 8 Transwestern Exhibit 1 6 8 9 Transwestern Exhibit 16 9 1 0 Transwestern Exhibits 1 7 0 & 1 7 ] 1 1 Transwestern Exhibit 1 7 2 1 2 Transwestern Exhibit 1 7 3 1 3 Transwestern Exhibit 1 7 4 1 4 Transwestern Exhibit 1 7 5 1 5 Transwestern Exhibit 17 6 1 6 Transwestern Exhibit 1 7 7 17 ]8 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 167 ]. 7 1 18 1 185 1 93 1 94 1 99 204 207 209 2 13 214 2 17 218 234 238 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 5 WATER PCB-SD0000033297 1 R . EMMET KELLY M . D . 2 of lawful age, having been first duly sworn t 3 to testify the truth, the whole truth, and 4 nothing but the truth in the case 5 aforesaid, deposes and says in reply to 6 oral interrogatories propounded as follows , 7 to-wi t : 8 EXAMINATION 9 QUESTIONS BY MR. TALLON: 1 0 Q. Please state your name and address 1 1 for the record? 1 2 A. Robert Emmet, E-m-m-e-t, Kelly, 1 3 K-e-l-l-y . 1 4 Q What is your address? 1 5 A . 665 South Skinker, S-k-i-n-k-e-r, 1 6 St. L o ui s, Missouri. 1 7 Q Doctor, you are retired as a 1 8 medical director for Monsanto Company? 1 9 A . Yes, sir. 2 0 Q And you retired in 1974? 2 1 A . November 30, 1974. 2 2 Q And when did you begin your career 2 3 with Mon santo? 2 4 A . January 15, 1936. 2 5 Q When did you assume the position GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 6 WATER PCB-SD0000033298 1 as medical director? 2 A. Sometime in March of 1945. 3 Q. And before March of 1945 what 4 position or positions did you hold? 5 A . Well, I started with the company 6 as a plant physician a t their large plant 7 inSt. Louis. I stayed there until I went 8 in the service in 1942. But along about 9 the end of 1937 or 1938 I had other 1 0 responsibilities at the rest of their 1 1 plants. I was sort of a medical director 1 2 without portfolio, as it were. And then I 1 3 was in the service from -- as I said, from 1 4 '42 to '45, and -- I don't know whether i t 1 5 was '45 or '46. '46, I think. Anyway, so 1 6 we then organized a new staff department 1 7 called a central medical department and I 1 8 was made medical director, and I remained 1 9 in that position until I retired. 2 0 Q. Are you a licensed physician? 2 1 A. Yes. 2 2 Q. And were you a licensed physician 2 3 throughout the period that you were 2 4 employed by Monsanto? 2 5 A . Yes, sir. More reporting company ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 7 WATER PCB-SD0000033299 1 II ii Q Since leaving Monsanto in 1974 2 have you had a private practice? e .3 A . N o , I have not. I've exami n e d 4 some c a s e s and I've done s ome legal work. 5 I was a s s o c iate d on a part -time b a si s with 6 B a r n e s -- with the Sutter , S-u-t-t- e - r 7 Indus trial Clinic, which was the largest 8 o c c u p a tio n a 1 clinic in St. Louis . That was 9 taken over by Barnes Hospital, which is the 1 0 teach ing hospital of Washington University, 1 1 and n ow called Barnes Healthcare. I was a 1 2 c o n s u 1t a n t for that for about eight years, 1 3 and I stopped that at the beginning of the 1 4 year. 1 5 Q. Of the beginning of 1992? 1 6 A. That's correct. I was also along 1 7 the way medical director, as it were, of 1 8 Consolidated Aluminum Company in St. 1 9 Loui. s. I gave them about thirty days a 2 0 year. But that was from, oh, roughly '77 2 1 to *85, I think. 2 2 Q . In your answer of a moment ago you 2 3 mentioned that you had done some legal 2 4 work. Could you explain what you meant by 2 5 the term legal work? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 8 WATER PCB-SD0000033300 1 A . Well I've examined cases for ? lawyers to see if they had any medical 3 condition that was associated with any 4 exposure, either in the environment or a t 5 their workplace, and I've given depositions 6 and testified in a few cases. 7 Q . Since your retirement from 8 Monsanto, have you served as a consultant 9 to Monsanto? 1 0 A. Well, the first year I was. For .1 1 twelve months I was a consultant, and since 1 2 then, no, I treat them as any other client. 1 3 Q. During the twelve month period 1 4 following your retirement where you served 1 5 as a consultant to Monsanto, ,d.id you 1 6 maintain an office at the Monsanto 1 7 headquarters in St. Louis? 1 8 A. Yes. I used one of their 1 9 offices. But my successor was there, so it 2 0 was a little touchy, I didn't want to step 2 1 on his feet. 2 2 Q. And would you please identify your 2 3 successor? 2 4 A. George Roush, R-o-u-s-h. 2 5 Q. During that twelve month period , |G 0 R E REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOUR I 9 WATER PCB-SD0000033301 1 what type of consulting work did you d o for 2 Monsanto? 3 A. We had a couple o f problems a t 4 some of their plants , none of which related 5 to the chemical under disc ussion today, and 6 I visited those plants and we set up a 7 program for more specific examination of 8 these people. It was our fiber plants, 9 Q . In your answer w h en you used the 1 0 term the chemical under di scussion today, 1 1 were you referring to poly chlorinated 1 2 biphenyls? 1 3 A. That's correct. 1 4 Q . And if I use the term PCBs, you 1 5 understand that I mean polychlorinated 1 6 biphenyls? 1 7 A. That's correct. 1 8 Q. You indicated that you had 1 9 examined cases for lawyers with respect to 2 0 exposure in the environment. Were any of 2 1 the cases where you provided those services 2 2 cases of exposure to PCBs? 2 3 A. Either exposure or alleged 2 4 exposure. 2 5 Q . Right . Were any of those cases |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI ]. 0 WATER PCB-SD0000033302 1 cases of exposure or alleged exposure? 2 A.Yes, they were. o 3 Q. And can you state how many 4 occasions you served a s a n examiner in the 5 case of exposure or alleged exposure? 6 A. 30, give or take 1 0 on either 7 side. Now, I examined the records of the 8 majority of these cases, there were 9 probably halfa dozen where Iexamined the 1 0 individuals themselves . 1 1 Q. When yousaid 30 give or take 10 1 2 on either side, you mean it could be as 1 3 many as 40 or as few as 20? 1 4 A. Probably not as few as 20. 1 5 Certainly between 30 and 40, I'd say. 1 6 Q. In the 30 to 40 instances where 1 7 you provided these services, did you also 1 8 provide testimony in connection with your 1 9 services? 2 0 A . In s me cases, yes . By testimony 2 1 you mean both deposition an d/or trial? 2 2 Q Well why don't we break it down, 2 3 Have you give deposition t estimony a s a n 2 4 expert wi t n e s where your c 1 ie n t was 2 5 Monsanto? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOUR I 11 WATER PCB-SD0000033303 1 A . Yes I have. 2 Q. And in how many instances have you 3 given deposition testimony as a n expert for 4 Monsanto? 5 A. Well, it wasn't only Monsanto. 6 You were asking just about Monsanto? I've 7 given them for other companies , also. 8 Q. I am asking just about Monsanto 9 right now. 1 0 A. I think it's going to be a guess 1 1 on that. Probably 20. 12 Q.In the cases where you gave 1 3 deposition testimony as an expert where 1 4 your client was Monsanto, were you 1 5 compensated? 1 6 A. Yes. 1 7 Q. And did you establish a regular 1 8 rate of compensation? 1 9 A. Yes, I did. 2 0 Q. What was that? 2 1 A. It varied, obviously, over the 2 2 years. It was two thousand dollars a day, 2 3 or two hundred dollars a n hour. 2 4 Q. Does that figure cover preparation 2 5 time as well as deposition time? , |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 12 WATER PCB-SD0000033304 1 A. If there were preparation with a 2 lawyer, it does not cover it. If it was 3 preparation by myself reading the records , 4 it did cover it. 5 Q. Can you estimate the amount of 6 money that you ' v e earned as an expert 7 giving deposition testimony for Monsanto? 8 A. Well, I'll tell you in 1992 it was 9 a thousand dollars. 1 0 Q. What about during the entire 1 1 period where you provided that service? 1 2 A. Oh, gosh. This is a pretty wild 1 3 guess. Fifty to seventy-five thousand, 1 4 probably. 1 5 Q Have you a 1s o s erved as a n expert 1 6 witness where your cl i e n t was Mons a n to and 1 7 you test i f i e d at a t r i a 1 7 1 8 A . Yes, I have. 1 9 Q Were you a 1 s o c ompensated f o r 2 0 appearances as an exp e r t witness f o r 2 1 Monsanto at t r i a 1 s ? 2 2 A . Yes. S o m e t i m e s -----one t i m e as a 2 3 fact witness. H o w e v e r , I was comp e n sated . 2 4 o n whatever th e fact rat e was. 2 5 Q Can y o u s t a t e the number o f times GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST . LOUIS, MISSOURI 13 WATER PCB-SD0000033305 1 that you've appeared a s an expert witness 2 a t trial for Monsanto? 9 3 A . Ten. That's a n estimate. 4 Q. And you were compensated for those 5 appearances? 6 A . Yes. 7 Q . Wasthat a t the samerate or a 8 different rate than the one you just 9 described a moment ago? 1 0 A. Same rate. 1 3 Q. When was the most recent time that 1 2 you appeared as an expert witness at trial 3 3 for Monsanto? 1 4 A. With PCBs? ConcerningPCBs? 1 5 Q Well, why don ' t we establi s h 1 6 whether or not you tes t i f i e d at all for 1 7 Monsanto as an expert witness a t t r i a 1 / 1 8 regardles s of the spec i f i c topic, and then 1 9 perhaps we can narrow i t . 2 0 A . What was the q u e s t i o n ? 2 1 Q The question i s , when was the last 2 2 time that you testifie d as a n expert f o r 2 3 Monsanto a t a trial? 2 4 A . I think it w a s in November o f '93. 2 5 Q And do you re call the name o f that GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 14 WATER PCB-SD0000033306 1 action Doctor? 2 A. 11 was in St. Louis City Court , e 3 but I don't recall the name of it. 4 Q. Was that a case involving 5 polychlorinated biphenyls? 6 A. Yes, it was. 7 Q. Can you identify the names of any 8 other actions where you have appeared as an 9 expert witness for Monsanto at trial? 1 0 A . I don't reca 11 any. I mean, I may 1 1 b e wrong on that , but I don' t recall any. 1 2 Q You don ' t re call t h e names of any 1 3 o f those cases? 1 4 A. Well, I don't reca ] 1 - - I've 1 5 given depositions in other cases -- I 1 6 mean, other chemicals, or f ibers, but I 1 7 don't recall whether those went to trial or 1 8 not. I don't recall that. 1 9 Q. When I asked you a moment ago how 2 0 many times you had appeared as an expert 2 1 witness a t trial where your client was 2 2 Monsanto you gave me an ans w e r of 2 3 approximately ten times a s an estimate, 2 4 Were you giving me a n answe r of cases where 2 5 you testified as a n expert at trial related jGO R E REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 15 WATER_PCB-SD0000033307 1 to PCBs or related to all subjects? 2 A . They were mostly PCBs. I was a t 3 fact witness in a trial with a n 4 agricultural chemical. 5 Q . Is the number of times that you 6 have appeared as a n expert witness a t trial 7 for Monsanto greater than ten if you 8 include cases that did not deal with PCBs? 9 A . I don't t h ink so. 1 0 Q - And when I asked you about the 1 1 number of times that you had appeared as an 1 2 expert at depositions for Monsanto, you 1 3 told me that it was approximately 20 1 4 times. Is the number greater than 20 if 1 5 you include cases that dealt not only with 1 6 PCBs, but also with other issues? 1 7 A. Might be 25. 1 8 Q. You indicated that you had served 1 9 as a fact witness for Monsanto in addition 2 0 to appearing for Monsanto as an expert 2 1 witness, correct? 2 2 A. That's correct. 2 3 Q . Can you state the number of 2 4 occasions where you have provided 2 5 deposition testimony a s what you deemed to GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST . LOUIS , MISSOUR I 16 WATER PCB-SD0000033308 1 be a fact witness for Monsanto? 2 A. One. 3 Q. What case was that? 4 A . It was a c a s e a t Charleston , West 5 V i r g i n i a on 2,4,5 T , which is a herb i c .i d e 6 c hemi ca ] . 7 Q Have you eve r appeared as a fact 8 w i t n e s s for Monsan t o in a case where the 9 s u b j e c t matter of the case addressed P C B s ? 1 0 A . No, sir. I do not recall. ] 1 Q Have you ever appeared as a trial 1 2 w i t n e s s for Monsan t o where your 1 3 respo n s ibility was a s a fact witness rather 1 4 than a n expert witnes s ? 1 5 A . I just s a i d that one. 16 Q I'm sorry I was asking about 1 7 depositions earlier. Let me clarify the 1 8 question, in case I was not being clear. 1 9 On how many occasions did you appear at 2 0 depositions as a fact witness for Monsanto? 2 1 A . One, I be 1 i eve. 2 2 Q Okay. And on how many occasions 2 3 have you appeared as a fact witness a t a 2 4 trial for Monsanto? 2 5 A . One. (GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 17 WATER PCB-SD0000033309 1 Q Is it the same c a s e ? 2 A . Yes. 3 Q And that's the c a s e i n C h arles ton. 4 West Virginia to w h i c h you ' v e r e f e r r e d ? 5 A . That' s correct. 6 Q Where you have gi v e n d e p o s i t i o n 7 testimony for M o n s a n t o as a fa c t w i t n e s s in 8 the past. were you c o m p e n s a t e d for the time 9 that you i n v e s ted i n the d epos i t i o n and its 1 0 preparation? 1 1 A. There was only one. 1 2 Q. On that occasion were you 1 3 compensated? 1 4 A . Yes. 1 5 Q A t what rate were you comp ensated? 1 6 A . I think m y r a t e wasn't a s high at 1 7 that t i m e r that was a b out five or s even 1 8 years a go I t h ink t h a t was f i f t e e n 1 9 hundred dollars a day. I b e 1 i e v e . 2 0 Q . And did that cover preparation as 2 1 well as deposition time? 2 2 A . Yes. 2 3 Q. Now, did you meet with Mr. Preuss 2 4 before your appearance here today? 2 5 A . Yes. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 18 WATER PCB-SD0000033310 1 Q Did you meet with him yes t e r d a y ? 2 A . Yes. 3 Q Did you meet with him on any 4 ion other than yesterday? 5 A . No, sir. 6 Q Are you being compensated for your 7 appearance here today? 8 A . I will be, I hope. 9 Q. You anticipate receiving 1 0 compensation? 1 1 A . Yes. 1 2 Q. For the preparation time and for 1 3 the deposition time? 1 4 A. That's correct. 1 5 Q. And atwhat rate do.you anticipate 1 6 being compensated? 1 7 A. The expert witness oftwo hundred 1 8 dollars an hour. 1 9 Q. Just for a point of clarification. 2 0 Doctor,when you've appeared as an expert 2 1 witness , what has been your area of 2 2 expertise, if it's been one area, or is it 2 3 morethan one area? 2 4 A . Well, it's occupationalillnesses . 2 5 Q. Within the category of IGORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MIS S OUR I 19 WATER PCB-SD0000033311 1 o c c u p a t i o n a 1 ill n e s s e s h a v e you appe ared a s 2 an e x P ert witnes s w h e r e y O u r e x p e r t i s e w a s 0 3 more n arrow.ly d e fin e d ? 4 A . Oh, yes I ' v e appeared i n case s 5 w h e r e a solvent was i n v o 1 V e d, I've a p p e a red 6 in c a s e s where a s b e s t o s w a s i n v o 1 v e d . I ' v e 7 a ppe a r e d in one c a s e for the plain t i f f s 8 wher e diesel oil w a s i n v o 1 v e d . But did you 9 ask m e about Mon s a n t o o n iy ? 1 0 Q . I hadn ' t , n o i was a s ki ng sim ply 1 1 what Y our area o f e xpert i s e was, m o r e 1 2 n a r r o w ly speakin g t h a n o c c upationa 1 1 3 i 11 n e s s . 1 4 A . Yes. What e v e r s i t u a t i o n a r o s e 1 5 that I felt came u n d e r m Y experien c e and 1 6 t r a i n i ng . 1 7 Q . To your k n o w ledge , were 1 8 t r a n s c ripts made o f Y our t estimony i n e a c h 1 9 of the occasions w h e r e y o u t e s t i f i e d a s a n 2 0 e x p e r t at trial and a t d ep ositions 7 2 1 A . Yes, si r . 2 2 Q . Do you m a i n t a i n c o pie s of those 2 3 trail s c :ripts? 2 4 A . No, I d o n ' t . 2 5 Q . Do you know i f Monsanto m ai ntai n s |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 20 WATER PCB-SD0000033312 1 copies of those transcripts? 2 MR. PREUSS : As to those cases in 3 which Monsanto was involved, you mean? 4 MR. TALLON : Well, any, but 5 presumably those would be the ones you 6 would be interested in. 7 A. Yes. I presume they do, because 8 I've asked them for a transcript and they 9 come up with it. 1 0 Q. Where you are asked to appear as 1 1 an expert witness by a client other than 1 2 Monsanto, do you alert Monsanto that you 1 3 have been so requested? 1 4 A . No, sir. 1 5 Q. Have you discussed the deposition 1 6 being taken today with anyone other than 1 7 Mr. Preuss? 1 8 A. I don't think so. 1 9 Q. Did you discuss the deposition 2 0 being taken today with Mr.Biseline of 2 1 Monsanto? 2 2 A . No, sir, 23 Q. Do you know who Mr. Biseline is? 2 4 A . I know him quite well. 2 5 Q . Doctor, do you recollect ever |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 21 WATER PCB-SD0000033313 1 l! having served as a witness a t a trial in a | case involving PCBs where Monsanto lost the 2 3 case? ( 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And can you identify that case or 6 those cases? 7 A . Well, there was one a t Broken Axe, 8 Michigan -- yes, Michigan . I don't know 9 the name of the case, but that's where -- 1 0 they lost that one. I'm not sure about the 1 1 others. They've settled some, and they 1 2 don't tell me what happens. But there may 1 3 have been others. 1 4 Q. And what was the subject of your 1 5 testimony in the action in Broken Axe, 1 6 Michigan? 1 7 A . As to my b e 1 i e f w h e t h e r the PCBs 1 8 could pos s i b 1 y cause any ill -effect on the 1 9 health of the dairy f arner. And i t was 2 0 accepted that he was quite w ell. but he was 2 1 awarded s one amount o f money because o f 2 2 fear he would get sick. 2 3 Q. Have you ever testified in a case 2 4 where Monsanto was the plaintiff? 2 5 A . No. |G 0 R E REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 22 WATER PCB-SD0000033314 1 Q Doctor are you the beneficiary of 2 any pension from Monsanto? 3 Yes. 4 Do you own Monsanto c omion stock? 5 Well, it's a question of w h ether I 6 own it. I have some in a trust . 7 Q. Do you own anysecurities? 8 A . Yes. 9 Q. Of Monsanto? 10 A. Well, yes. I mean, if -- of 1 1 which I'm a trustee . 1 2 Q. You're the trustee of a tru s t 1 3 which holds securities of Monsanto? 1 4 A . That's correct. 1 5 Q And do you know the a p p r o x i mate 1 6 value o f those s ecurities? 1 7 MR . PREUSS : That's not r e1 e v a n t . 18 MR . TALLON : I think it is. You 1 9 know. I ' m going to seal -- not seal , but 2 0 we'll t r e at the transcript as 2 1 c o n f i dent i a 1 . 2 2 A . $70,000 .00, give or take 10 2 3 thousand. 2 4 Q Do you own any stock option s which 2 5 are a t this point unexercised? PORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 23 WATER PCB-SD0000033315 1 A . No, sir. 2 Q. Are you the beneficiary of any 3 retirement benefit plan other than a 4 pension plan? 5 A. Well, there is a group insurance 6 payment on my life in the amount of 7 thirty-seven thousand dollars. 8 Q. What about a retirement medical 9 plan, are you the beneficiary of any 1 0 retirement medical plan? 1 1 A. I forgot that. That's a 1 2 supplementary Medicare plan which I think 1 3 after a certain deduction you are insured 1 4 up to fifty thousand dollars over a 1 5 life-time, which is two hospital 1 6 admissions. 1 7 Q. Are you the beneficiary of any 1 8 other retirement benefit plan from 1 9 Monsanto? 2 0 A. Retirement, no. 2 1 Q. Are you the beneficiary of any 2 2 other benefit plan from Monsanto? 2 3 A . I'm invited to the old folks ' 2 4 dinner . I get the company magazine. 2 5 Q. Other than those two? |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 24 WATER PCB-SD0000033316 1 A . That's it. 2 Q. All right. Doctor, you served as 3 medical director of Monsanto for a number 4 of years, I'm interested in learning from 5 you your responsibilities while you held 6 that position. And I understand that the 7 position covered a significant number of 8 years, but could you describe for me your 9 responsibilities as medical director during 1 0 the period you held that job? 1 1 A. Yes. The primary duty was to see 1 2 that our plants were operated in such a 1 3 manner that no illnesses, occupational 1 4 illnesses would occur in our work force. 1 5 Number two, I had the responsibility of 1 6 ascertaining toxicological information on 1 7 our raw materials and finished products. 1 8 Three, I was responsible for setting up an 1 9 industrial hygiene program in our plants. 2 0 Four, I was responsible for the safe 2 1 handling data, toxicological data that 2 2 would be listed in our bulletins or our 2 3 labels. Five, I was responsible for 2 4 answering any questions that came to 2 5 Monsanto concerning the health effects of (GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS , MISSOURI 25 WATER PCB-SD0000033317 any of our chemicals whether these were 2 from a worker, other company or a private J physician. 4 Q In c o n n e c t i o n w i t h you r 5 responsib i 1 i t i e s to e n s u re no o ccupational 6 illnesses in M o n s a n t o P 1 ants, d id you ever 7 undertake to make any c h a n g e s i n or 8 recommend changes i n the o p e r a t ions of the 9 Krummrich plant? 1 0 A. I certai n1y mad e r e c o m mendations 1 1 about areas of ve n t i 1 a t i on. I may have 1 2 recommended chang e s in u sing a solvent, a 1 3 different solvent for -- in t h e i r 1 4 operations. 1 5 Q. Did you ever recommend making any 1 6 operational changes in the operations of 1 7 the Krummrich plant, as that plant was a 1 8 producer of PCB-based production? 1 9 A. Would you tell me what you mean by 2 0 operational? 2 1 Q . I mean, when I use the term 2 2 operational, the methodology used for 2 3 manufacture of products . 2 4 A . No, sir. 2 5 Q . Did you ever recommend any changes |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 26 WATER PCB-SD0000033318 1 be made for safety r e a s o n s a t the K r u m m r i c h 2 plant as the operat i o ns of that plan t 3 related to PCBs? 4 A . Well, now. s afety -- if by safety 5 you mean physical i n j uries, that was - 6 that is the respons i b i1it y of the s a f e t y 7 departme n t, they 're the ones that pu t up 8 guards a nd worried a b out fire and t h at sort 9 of stuff. The medical department was 1 0 concerned about the presence of dust, 1 1 fumes, exposure to chemicals. I did not 1 2 make -- were you talking about PCBs, now? 1 3 Q. Yes. 1 4 A. I did not make any operational 1 5 changes in operational status, although I 1 6 certainly, over the years, made 1 7 recommendations about ventilation, and 1 8 whether or not workers should wear 1 9 respirators at various points. 2 0 Q. Do you recollect having made any 2 1 recommendations with respect to the 2 2 ventilation of fumes associated with the 2 3 manufacture of PCB products at the 2 4 Krummrich plant? 2 5 A. I don't recall specifically a t all (GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 27 WATER PCB-SD0000033319 1 whether I did or not. 2 Q. Do you recall in general that you 0 3 did make such a recommendation , but don't 4 remember specifically what the 5 recommendation was? 6 A. I'mnot even sure whether I made 7 the recommendations or not. We treated PCB 8 as another department . 9 Q. Do you recollect havingmade a 1 0 recommendation with respect to the 1 1 ventilation of fumes at the Krummrich plant 1 2 without specific regard to PCRs? 13 A. I'msure I have over the 35 years 1 4 I was medical director, but I'm -- I can't 1 5 be specific about it. 1 6 Q. Do you recall having made any 1 7 recommendations with respect to the PCB 1 8 operations of the Krummrich plant relating 1 9 to exposure, as you used that term in your 2 0 answer a few moments ago? 2 1 A. I can't recall specifically, sir. 2 2 Q. Do you recollect having made any 2 3 recommendations that workers whose jobs 2 4 were associated with PCB product production 2 5 a t Krummrich wear respirators? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 28 WATER PCB-SD0000033320 1 A . Well, I c ertainly may have. For 2 example. if a p e r s on is tearing down a pump 3 or there is a leak where mater.i a 1 is hot. 4 we have recommendations all over the 5 chemical plant if you have the opportunity 6 to inhale fumes , wear a n organic 7 respirator. I mean, that's a standard 8 recommendation for the plant. If there 9 were a leak where hot PCB came out on the 1 0 floor and the worker were exposed to it 1 1 cleaning it up, he obviously fell under 1 2 this recommendation, that recommendation 1 3 obtained as far as he was concerned. But I 1 4 can't tell you I wrote down a l 5 recommendation that workers should wear 1 6 respirators if there are leaks in the PCB 1 7 department. 1 8 Q. Do you remember the firsttime you 1 9 made any recommendation with respect to the 2 0 use of respirators to avoid fumes at the 2 1 Krummrich plant? 2 2 A . Probably the first time I went 2 3 there i n 1938, or some thing like that. 2 4 Q . When you used the w ords "tear down 2 5 a pump" in your 1 a s t a n s w e r , were you |G 0 R E REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 29 WATER PCB-SD0000033321 1 referring to the disassembly of a pump? 2 A. Well, taking it out of the line. t 3 Not -- then the pump would be taken over 4 to the machine shop where it would be put 5 under a hood and disassembled . But tearing 6 down meaning taking out of the production 7 line, that's what I meant. 0 (Discussion off the record). 9 MR. TALLON: You mentioned. Dr. 1 0 Kelly, that one of your responsibilities as 1 1 medical director was to have responsibility 1 2 for toxicological information on raw 1 3 materials and finished products. Could you 1 4 explain, please, how you discharged that 1 5 responsibility? 1 6 A. Yes. Let's start with raw 1 7 materials. Obviously, we would ask the 1 8 supplier what he knew about it. If he 1 9 didn't have it, we would look it up ourself 2 0 in the various publications that may or may 2 1 not list the material. If that proved 2 2 negative, if we didn't find anything out, I 2 3 would talk to the confreres that I knew in 2 4 the chemical business and ask them what 2 5 they know about it, if they've been using |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOUR I 30 WATER PCB-SD0000033322 1 it and what they know about it. And then 2 I finally in a few rare cases we may do some 3 t o x i cological work of our own on it. Not 4 very often. Most of the time we did i t on 5 our own products rath e r than products from 6 the supplier. As far as the finished 7 information is concerned, information on 8 the finished goods, it depends on the 9 product. If the product were a "me, too" 1 0 product, in other words, it was made by 1 1 DuPont for five years and we started making 1 2 the same product, I would first see if 1 3 there were any information in the published 1 4 literature, whether the government knew 1 5 anything about it, then I would call the 1 6 medical director of DuPont and say "George, 1 7 we're going to make t h i s, what do you know 1 8 about it? Have you had any trouble with 1 9 it?" And he would ___ that flow of 2 0 information was quite free, there was no 2 1 competition as far as the health aspects of 2 2 material was c oncerned. bee a u s e i f the 2 3 s ituation were reversed and h e was going to 2 4 -- if DuPont was going t o make a product 2 5 that Monsanto had made for five years and GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 31 WATER_PCB-SD0000033323 1 j he'd call me, I'd tell him what I knew 2 about it. If there were no information 3 obtained by* those routes , we would return 4 some amount of toxicological information. 5 That varied in extent from -- depending on 6 the use the product -- to which it would 7 be put. 8 Q. Can you explain. Doctor, how the 9 use to which a product was to be put was a 1 0 variable in ascertaining toxicological 1 1 information? 1 2 A . Sure. If it were going to be a 1 3 food product or an ingredient of a food 1 4 wrapper, you had to do quite considerable 1 5 work. If the material were an industrial 1 6 chemical that were going to be used, say, 1 7 in a paint, you would only have to have a 1 8 minimum amount of information on it, 1 9 because the paint is not supposed to be 2 0 used at an elevated temperature, it's not 2 1 supposed to be ingested. If the material 2 2 were a product that was going to be used a t 2 3 a n elevated temperature and there is a 2 4 chance that a worker would -- or a 2 5 customer ' s worker would inhale the fumes a t |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 32 WATER_PCB-SD0000033324 1 ! elevated temperatures , we would run tests 2 on -- ventilation tests on the material a t 3 elevated temperatures . 4 Q. In the past couple of answers 5 you've used terms like the one you just 6 used now, "we would run tests." Are you 7 describing a situation where Monsanto does 8 toxicological testing a t its own 9 laboratories? 1 0 A. They do now. But that laboratory 1 1 ted about 1975, and I ' m not sure how 1 2 testing they do th ere . W e used two 1 3 1 laboratories for the rout .ine testing 1 4 of the material , non-extensive testing . We 1 5 used outside laboratories, some university 1 6 laboratories and some industrial 1 7 laboratories for the more advanced tests. 1 8 We did not have our own testing laboratory. 1 9 Q. Before 1975 toxicological testing 2 0 was done by vendors to Monsanto, 2 1 independent labs? 2 2 A. Vendors? I don't -- 2 3 Q . Independent labs? 2 4 A . Yes. 2 5 Q . Was Industrial Biotest a |GOR E REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 33 WATER PCB-SD0000033325 1 laboratory used by Monsanto during the 2 period you served a s medical director? 3 A . Yes, it was. 4 Q . Were you personally responsible 5 for ordering toxicological studies or 6 reports on either raw materials or finished 7 product a t Monsanto? 8 A . Yes. 9 Q. And under what circumstances would 1 0 you order such a study? 1 1 A . Well, if I saw the need for it. 1 2 What w e tried to do is have a minimum of 1 3 t o x i cology work carried out on every 1 4 prod u c t that we adverti sed or mentioned in 1 5 a development bulletin. We might say we've 1 6 got product X here, these are its physical 1 7 and chemical characteristics, maybe you can 1 8 use i t in your business. I mean, I ' m 1 9 s i m p 1 ifying the four page bulletin. Then 2 0 we would run a minimum of toxicology o n 2 1 that that would include eye irritati on, to 2 2 see i f it could be absorbed through the 2 3 skin. the minimum lethal LD 5 0, which is 2 4 the standard test for oral toxicity, and 2 5 then inhalation of material a t saturated GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 34 WATER_PCB-SD0000033326 1 room temperature . That was a minimum. 2 Q. And what does the term L D 50 3 signify? 4 A. You give the material orally to 5 two species of -- one or two species of 6 rodents , one a rodent , usually, and the 7 other a rabbit, and calculate what dose 8 kills half of them. That's the lethal dose 9 for 50 percent of the animals. 1 0 Q. And what factors did you use to 1 1 determine whether a minimum of the 1 2 toxicological work should be done on a new 1 3 product? 1 4 A. The use to which it was going to 1 5 be put, as well as the potential exposure 1 6 to commercial customer's workers. If it 1 7 were going t o be us e d in a cl o s e d s y stem 1 8 where the only expo sure would be if there 1 9 were leaks o r holes , t h a t was a lot 2 0 different than the open opera t i o n . 2 1 Q. In order to -- for you to make a 2 2 judgment a s to whether or not to conduct 2 3 minimum toxicological work or more than 2 4 minimum toxicological work, did you solicit 2 5 a n explanation from businessmen a t Monsanto |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 35 WATER_PCB-SD0000033327 1 j as to the proposed use of a product? 2 A . Oh, yes. 3 Q . Was there a formal system for 4 soliciting that information in place during 5 your service? 6 A . Yes. It went in place forma 1 ly, I 7 guess, sometime in the late '50's or early 8 '60's. Before that it was a sort of 9 informal -- I guess informal basis. But we 1 0 were very -- we were on the same campus as 1 1 our research department and as our 1 2 development people and we saw these people 1 3 all the time, and we were on top of it 1 4 pretty much. I don't think much went by -- 1 5 in the informal system wentby unnoticed. 1 6 Q. When I asked you the question, I 1 7 asked you if businessmen had given you , 1 8 information about the proposed use of a 1 9 product. In fact, during the period that 2 0 the informal system was in place was there 2 1 a generic type of person at Monsanto who 2 2 gave you information about the proposed use 2 3 of a product? 2 4 A. Could be the research scientist 2 5 associated with it, it could be the |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 36 WATER PCB-SD0000033328 1 j development man. Usually, a product goes 2 from a r e s e arch bench into a d e v e 1 o p m e n t 3 g r o u P in w h ich these p e o p 1 e d e c i d e where do 4 you t h ink this c o u 1 d be us e d o u t i n the 5 real world . And then when the y f i n d that 6 nitc then it g oes to the s a 1 e s 7 department. So we would have the 8 toxicological requests on the information 9 about the product before it got to the 1 0 sales department. 1 1 Q. Could you describe in brief, 1 2 Doctor, how the informal system which you 1 3 have referred to worked before the 1 4 establishment of a more formal system? 1 5 A. Yes. The development man would 1 6 come in and say we've got product X, this 1 7 is the chemical, we're thinking of using it 1 8 as a corrosion inhibitor, we're going to 1 9 put this in oil to keep it from corroding 2 0 the engines. I'd say, "You mean motor 2 1 oil?" He'd say "Yes." "An automobile 2 2 h a n i c will get his hands smeared up with 2 3 with this in it?" And they'd say yes. 2 4 I'd say well, we'd better check some oral 2 5 toxicity -- I mean, some dermal toxicity |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS , MISSOURI WATER_PCB-SD0000033329 1 xic ity . A n d i f it were 2 -spread ski n c o n t a c t in 3 widespread 4 5 a wide - - w e 1 1 , of p e o p1 e , w e may run see if i t was a skin 6 irritant or not. 7 Q. During the period that the 8 informal system which you have described 9 was in place, did you establish any 1 0 practice for soliciting particular kinds of 1 1 information from development men at 1 2 Monsanto? 1 3 A. Well, we got them all the time. I 1 4 don't think that we had any specific 1 5 pattern. I mean, I knew all thesepeople, 1 6 and it seemed to work. 1 7 Q. What I'm wondering. Doctor, is 1 8 what kinds of information you solicited in 1 9 order to make ajudgment about whether or 2 0 not to order a toxicological study? 2 1 A. Oh, well, regardless of the 2 2 proposed use, anything we were going to 2 3 send out to a customer, if we were to send 2 4 out the second sample to a customer, we 2 5 would have toxicological information on GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST . LOUIS, MISSOURI 38 WATER PCB-SD0000033330 .it. I mean, we had the minimum on it. We 2 didn't send it out on the first one because 3 -- if you sent a quart out of a sample, we 4 get all sorts of -- you know, you get five 5 thousand inventions from a bunch of 6 research chemists. But if we advertised it 7 -- not advertised it, but brought it to 8 people's attention in a development 9 bulletin, we had toxicological information 1 0 on it in the informal system as well as the 1 1 forma 1 s y s t e m . I f -- as I said. we got 1 2 r e q u e s t s for a numb er of samples , and any 1 3 r e p e a t s a m p 1 e s that looked like this 1 4 p r o d u c t might be a winner, or it might be 1 5 useful, we ran toxicological^ information on 16 it . 1 7 Q. I'm not sure I understood that 1 8 answer completely. Doctor. You're drawing 1 9 a distinction between second samp]e 2 0 products that you send to a particular 2 1 customer and products where you get many 2 2 requests for samples, is that the 2 3 distinction you're drawing? 24 A. Yes. If it looked like it was 2 5 going to -- if it'sjust for one person up |G 0 R E REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 39 WATER PCB-SD0000033331 1 in Seattle that heard that Monsanto was 2 doing this kind of work and wrote in and 3 said do you* have any of product XY, send me 4 a guart of it, if that's the last we heard 5 of it, we wouldn't run toxicological 6 information on that, as a rule. Now, it 7 was a moving target over the years . I 8 mean, we were doing more toxicological work 9 in the ' 7 0 ' s than we were in the ' 3 0 ' s. 1 0 Q. And what was the distinguishing 1 1 characteristic which would cause you to 1 2 order a toxicological study as between one 1 3 distribution of a sample and mutiple 1 4 requests for samples from prospective 1 5 customers? 1 6 A. Say that again? 1 7 Q. Sure. I'm wondering how you -- 1 8 what determination you made to call for a 1 9 toxicological study. You've indicated that 2 0 if just one person wanted a sample, that 2 1 was not really enough. But when did it 2 2 become enough to order toxicological work? 2 3 MR. PREUSS: Well, his testimony 2 4 is what it is, I object to the 2 5 characterization of his testimony. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS , MISSOURI 40 WATER PCB-SD0000033332 1 A. Well, Ican't say that if we had 2 1 5 -- I think that was flexible. I f the 3 development * man said looks like there is 4 quite a bit ofInterest in this product, 5 well, fine, then we would run toxicological 6 information on it. But I didn't have a 7 rule if it's gets up to nine we run it. 8 MR. TALLON: All right. That's 9 what I was looking for. Thank you. Would 1 0 you describe how the formal system changed 1 1 the system that you've just described as 1 2 the informal system? 1 3 A. Well, it made it more -- it 1 4 tightened it up to make sure there were no 1 5 lapses in it, that we had a system that if 1 6 product were mentioned in any of our 1 7 development bulletins -- I mean, they may 1 8 have a column in a development bulletin, 1 9 "What's new at Monsanto." "Well, we've got 2 0 this product, X,Y,Z, which has these 2 1 physical characteristics, can you use it?" 2 2 I f it got in that, we did it. We went back 2 3 to the situation of the two requests for 2 4 samples , that was put in there . If we had 2 5 any historyof irritation orill-effects bORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 41 WATER PCB-SD0000033333 1 from our research chemists w e ran it. 2 There may have been other criteria, but I 3 think these are the main ones. 4 Q When t h e formal syste m w a s 5 e s t a b 1 i shed in e i t h e r the late ' 5 0 ' s o r 6 early ' 6 0 ' s , w e r e any protocol s or 7 g u i d e 1 i nes writt e n in order to d e s c r i be the 8 system? 9 A . Well, w e had what we call e d a Form 1 0 201 and 202, and that really d e s c r i b e d what 1 1 we need e d to get from the -- that w a s 1 2 d i s t r i b uted when we p u t that i n . And I 1 3 don't a t present r e m e m b e r what the 1 4 d i f f e r e nee betwe e n 2 0 1 and 202 was When 1 5 we put that in w e sent it around to a 11 the 1 6 researc h laborat ories, all the lab 1 7 develop m e n t groups in the compa ny and said 1 8 this is what we're doing. 1 9 Q And what. in general. did Form 201 2 0 and Form 202, do without regard to any 2 1 distinction between those two forms? 2 2 A. You mean what did it do, what did 2 3 it ask for? 2 4 Q. What were those forms intended to 2 5 accomplish? |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 42 WATER PCB-SD0000033334 1 A. What they were intended to 2 accomplish was to give us the physical 3 characteristics of the material, what the 4 estimate of potential use was and the 5 manner in which the material should be used 6 -- could be used, what they knew about it. 7 Q . Was a completed Form 201 or Form 8 202 to be returnedto the medical 9 department? 1 0 A. Well, they completed the first 1 1 part. In other words, we would send them 1 2 the blank 201 or 202. They would fill in 1 3 the stuff they were supposed to put in, 1 4 physical characteristics,solid, 1 5 temperature, volatility, vapor pressure, 1 6 all that stuff. There was a space for 1 7 potential use, or estimated use. And then 1 8 we would then have a section on toxicology 1 9 that after we ran it we'd send it back to 2 0 them for inclusion in any bulletin that 2 1 they might be writing . 2 2 Q. Was a completed Form 202 or 201 2 3 required on any product that appeared in 2 4 the development bulletin? 2 5 A. Yes. (GORE REPORTI NG COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 43 WATER_PCB-SD0000033335 1 Q Was a completed Form 201 or 202 2 required on any other product? 3 A. Well, we may -- yes, I think it 4 was. I mean, if we started manufacturing a 5 product that somebody else had made, but 6 was new to Monsanto and it wasn't going to 7 be in a development bulletin, go right into 8 a sales bulletin, a 201 and 202 would have 9 to be filled out on that one. 1 0 Q. Is the category of products you 1 1 just described what you earlier referred to 1 2 as a "me, too" product? 13 A. Theone that was manufactured by 1 4 somebody else before, yes. 15 Q. Yes.Was the completion of a Form 1 6 201 or 202 required for any Monsanto 1 7 product other than one appearing in the 1 8 development bulletin or a "me, too" 1 9 product? 2 0 A. Gosh, I don't know how -- well, 2 1 certainly if we were making a n insecticide 2 2 it wouldn't be -- or a herbicide, it would 2 3 not be in a development bulletin until we 2 4 had all the information about it. I mean, 2 5 we would know how good it was a s a n GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 44 WATER PCB-SD0000033336 1 insecticide, what crops it should be used 2 on. And none of that was put in a 3 development*bulletin because we knew that 4 the marketing time for that might be one or 5 two years down the road. or even Ion g e r 6 than that . S o it would be r e q u i red o n 7 that. That would not be in a development 8 bulletin. There may be other ones, but I'm 9 not sure. 1 0 Q. Did you participate in the 1 1 drafting of Forms 201 and 202 ? 1 2 A . Yes. The m e d i c a 1 d e p a r t m e n t -- 1 3 they were medic a 1 d ep artuent forms . 1 4 Q . Did so m e o n e in your d e p a r t m e n t 1 5 have part i c u 1 a r res po nsibility for putting 1 6 those forms tog e t h e r ? 1 7 A . Elmer W h e e 1 e r did. 1 8 Q Do you k n o w whether Mr. W h e e 1 e r 1 9 was assis ted by any o n e in his work i n 2 0 creating those form s ? 2 1 A . Well, he m ight have had one of our 2 2 toxicolog i s t s a s a consultant on it. 2 3 Q But y o u c a n ' t think of a n a m e 2 4 right now of so m e o n e you know helped him in 2 5 that process? REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 45 WATER_PCB-SD0000033337 1 A. Well, it could be Dr. Hunt, it 2 could be Dr. Levinsksas. Hunt is dead, 3 Wheeler is dead. Levinsksas is retired. 4 One of those, it could be Levinsksas, could 5 have. 6 Q. Do you know. Dr. Kelly, whether 7 there was any instructions accompanying the 8 Form 201 or 202 as to their use? 9 A. Well, sure. I mean, we -- I 1 0 thin k we had a letter that explaine d the 1 1 use of i t . We just w o u 1 d n ' t put on e .i n the 1 2 mail and send i t out to t h i s d e v e 1 o p m e n t 1 3 man. W e 'd tell them what the p u r p o s e o f i t 1 4 was and how he should fill i t out a n d t o 1 5 whom h e should send i t back and w h e n h e 1 6 could expect an a n s w e r . I ' m sure ther e was 1 7 a letter of that type. 1 8 Q. Do you know. Dr. Kelly, whether 1 9 there were any internal guidelines or 2 0 protocols within the medical department to 2 1 assist in the evaluation of a Form 201 or 2 2 202 completed by a development employee of 2 3 Monsanto? 2 4 A. No. Either our toxicologists or 2 5 m v s e1f looked a t the form. 11 wasn't GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST . LOUIS , MISSOURI 46 WATER PCB-SD0000033338 1 s tructured any more than that. 2 Q. Are you aware that Monsanto sold a 3 product known as Turbinol 153? 4 A . Yes. 5 Q Do you r e c a 1 1 having e v e r s e e n 6 completed Form 2 0 1 or 202 that r e 1 a t e d 7 Turbinol 15 3? 8 A . No , I do not recall . 9 Q Do you r e c a 1 1 having e v e r s e e n 1 0 either of those two forms completed for a 1 1 product known as OS-81? 1 2 A. I know we had toxicological 1 3 information on OS-81, but I do not recall 1 4 at this time whether we had a form, and I 1 5 don't know whether OS-81 was developed 1 6 before our 201, 202 program started. 1 7 Q. Do you recollect. Dr. Kelly, ever 1 8 having seen a Form 201 or 202 completed 1 9 with respect to a product known as MCS-153? 2 0 A. I don't know. 2 1 Q Dr . Kelly , i f a Form 201 or Form 2 2 202 had been c o m p 1 e t e d with respect to a 2 3 product. the name of w h ich later changed. 2 4 would an additional Form 201 or 202 be 2 5 required? !|G 0 R E REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 47 WATER PCB-SD0000033339 1 A . No. If the only change was a 2 name, no. 3 Q. At'th e time you commenced work a t 4 Monsanto were you aware of any 5 toxicological studies relating to products 6 where their c o nstituent elements of the 7 products i n c 1 u ded PCBs? 8 A . You m ean before I came with 9 Monsanto? 1 0 Q. As of the time that you arrived 1 1 were you aware of any studies that dated 1 2 before the tim e you arrived? 1 3 MR. PREUSS: On PCBs? 1 4 A. On PCBs? 1 5 MR. TALLON: Yes. 1 6 A. The day Iwalked into Monsanto at 1 7 the plant. A, did I know that there were 1 8 toxicological studies on PC.B, is that the 1 9 question? 2 0 Q. We can certainly start with that. 2 1 MR. PREUSS: That was the 2 2 question, wasn't it? '' 2 3 A. Theanswerisno. ^ 2 4 MR. TALLON : Within the first year 2 5 of your service a t Monsanto did you become GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 48 WATER PCB-SD0000033340 1 | aware of any toxicological studies i n 2 existence a t that time that related t o 9 3 PCB-based products? 4 MR. PREUSSs Are we talking about 5 internal a s opposed to external? 6 MR. TALLON: I'm really not making 7 a distinction. 8 MR . PREUSS : All right. 9 A . At some time toxicological studies 1 0 ere c a r r i e d out at H arvard Universi t y, but 1 1 d o not know if that was in the fir s t year 1 2 or not. I thought that was in 1937 0 r 1 3 1938, so I do not believe those stud 1 e s 1 4 were carried out by January of 1937, which 1 5 would be the year following my arriv a 1 at 1 6 Monsanto . 1 7 Q. By the time you became the medical 1 8 director of Monsanto did you become aware 1 9 of any toxicological studies address i n g 2 0 PCB-based products? 2 1 A . Yes. 2 2 Q Which? 2 3 A . Which s t u d i e s ? 2 4 Q Yes. 2 5 A . Harvard studies . |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 49 WATER PCB-SD0000033341 1 Q Any others? 2 A . I don' t r e c all . There may h a v 3 been some acute oral studies by s o m e 4 laboratory or o t h e r . I 'm sure we a Iso 5 some acute oral stud i e s , acute toxi city 6 s t u d i e s on the mater i a 1 during the ] a t e 7 '30's , the firs t c o u pie of year s of the 8 ' 40' s . 9 Q I n general terms, Doctor, what 1 0 does the - - what is an a c ute oral study 1 1 des igned t o tell you? 1 2 A . T o give you so r t of a benchmark o f 1 3 the toxic i t y of a mater i a 1 . Well, this i s 1 4 acute poi son , what if y o u accidentally 1 5 swallow. you know, a w h iskey jigger full o f 1 6 the mater i a 1 , what harm are you liable to 1 7 get. It i s n 't a comple t e evaluation of i t, 1 8 but it is a benchmark and it helps to 1 9 define it in relationship to other 2 0 compounds. 2 1 Q . Do you r e c o 1 1 e c t the r e s u 11 s o 2 2 any studies i n e x i s t e n c e by the time y o 2 3 b e c a me m e di cal direct o r o f Monsanto t h a 2 4 were acute oral s t u d i e s o f toxi city for 2 5 PCB-based products? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST . LOUIS , MISSOURI 50 WATER PCB-SD0000033342 1 Wel.l as I said Harvard 2 Drinker a t Harvard didsome work on a 3 couple of PCBs. He also did some work on a 4 compound that was mis labeled, it was 5 chlorinated diphenyl benzene. And he did 6 some work on, I think, 1254. 7 Q. Are there any other studies of 8 which you're aware that existed by the time 9 you became medical director of Monsanto? 1 0 A. I don't recall them. I mean, 1 1 there may have been, but I don't recall 1 2 them. 1 3 Q. When you referred a moment ago to 1 4 work done by Professor Drinker on 1254, 1 5 were you referring to Aroclor 1254? 1 6 A. Yes. 1 7 Q. Is that a trade name used by 1 8 Monsanto to describe a particular type of 1 9 product? 2 0 A . Yes, it i s . 2 1 Q. And does the 54 in the 2 2 nomenclature 1254 i nd icate that the product 2 3 i s chlorinated to the extent of 54 percent 2 4 by weight? 2 5 A. That's the average chlorination. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 51 WATER PCB-SD0000033343 1 It may be chlorinated -- they've got 2 isomers that are higher, some lower, but 6 3 the average chlorination is 5 4 percent . 4 Q . I want to refer back to a n answer 5 you gave a few moments ago. Dr. Kelly. You 6 used the term closed system in responding 7 to one of my questions. Would you please 8 state for the record what you mean when you 9 used the term closed system? 1 0 A. Yes. The ingredients or the 1 1 chei i c a 1 s are i n side pipes / i n s i d e 1 2 r e a c t o r s , ins i d e kettles, and t h a t there 1 3 was s u ppo s e d t o be no c o n t act w i t h the 1 4 outside environment from the time the raw 1 5 materials areput in until the finished 1 6 product is put into drums, tank cars or 1 7 whatever type of container they're going to 1 8 use for ultimate delivery to the customer. 1 9 Q. In your answer you used the term 2 0 there was supposed to be no contact. Are 2 1 you indicating that there were 2 2 circumstances under which contact with the 2 3 chemicals could occur? 2 4 A . Well, there is also the potential 2 5 for leaks in a system . If you have a pump. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 52 WATER PCB-SD0000033344 L j the packing could leak when you're filling 2 the material, or draining the material it 3 can leak. You could spill over. You have 4 certain cleanup operations in which you 5 take the system out of operation and clean 6 it up. So there are possibilities, yes. 7 Q, Was the term closed system in use 8 at Monsanto during the period that you were 9 medical director? 1 0 A. Oh, yes. 1 1 Q . And doyou have any recollection 1 2 orsense of when that term first came into 1 3 use? 14 I think was there before I got 1 5 there . 1 6 Q Do you have any recoil ection of 1 7 when you a c h i e v ed an understand ing that a 1 8 closed sy stem c ould leak or tha t contact 1 9 could be made i n the process of filling 2 0 material or c 1 e aning up operati o n s ? 2 1 A . I'd s a y probably 1936 the first 2 2 time I went thr ough a plant, 2 3 Q You a 1 so, in a n answer that you 2 4 gave earl ier, r eferred to an op e n system, 2 5 Could you d e s c r ibe what you m e a n t when you GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 53 WATER_PCB-SD0000033345 1 used the term open system? 2 A . Well, a n open system refers to a n 0 3 o p e r a t ion that i s not carried out entirely 4 within kettles o r pipes. You may have 5 trays , you may have filtering operations, 6 you may have drying operations. And in the 7 other sense it refers to the use of the 8 product. And I didn't mention the use when 9 I talked about closed system, I only talked 1 0 about manufacturing. If you have a 1 1 transformer that's filled with PCB , that's 1 2 a closed system. If you have a capacitor 1 3 that's filled with PCBs, that's a closed 1 4 system. Now, on the contrary, if you have 1 5 a plasticizer or a paint tha,t has PCB in 1 6 it, when that's incorporated into a 1 7 plastic, during the operation it is open. 1 8 It may be in ball mills, it may be in 1 9 rollers , i t may be in sheeting operati o n s . 2 0 And when i t is used, it is not -- by the 2 1 customer, here ' s a plastic that is out i n 2 2 the open. that's a n open operation. It may 2 3 be open - - open -cl ose operation might be a 2 4 better term for the use of it. But that's 2 5 what I mean by a n open system. |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 54 WATER PCB-SD0000033346 1 Q. Have you ever heard the term 2 semi-closed system? t 3 A. No, I wouldn't know what it 4 eans . I m e a n , s emi- c 1 o s e d r half 5 regna nt ? I mean , I d o n ' t t h ink so. I 6 o n ' t t h i n k i t ' s comm o n 1 y u s e d . 7 Q Was the term o pen s Y stem in use at 8 Monsanto while you were medical director? 9 A. Oh, yes . 1 0 Q And can you e s t i m a t e o r tell me 1 1 when or how long d u r i ng that peri o d of 1 2 s e r v i c e the term was i n use? 1 3 A . '36 to '74. 1 4 Q. You mentioned that one of the 1 5 responsibilities you had as medical 1 6 director was to establish an industrial 1 7 hygiene program? 1 8 A. That's correct. 1 9 Q . And would you briefly describe 2 0 what you did to initiate that industrial 2 1 hygiene program at Monsanto? 2 2 A . I hired an i n d u strial hyg i e n e 2 3 engineer in 1947, and I hired thre e more 2 4 before I left in '74. 2 5 Q And who was the engineer that you (GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 55 WATER_PCB-SD0000033347 1 hired in 1 9 3 7 ? 2 A . '47. 3 Q '47, e x c u s e me. 4 A . Wheel e r 5 Q . Who w e r e the three -- 6 A . Jack G a rrett came in ' 5 7, I 7 believe. Carl B ohl, B-o-h-1, c a m e in '60 8 Bruce Ele y cam e sometime in the late '60' s . 9 Q M e s s r s . Garrett, Bohl and E 1 e y 1 0 were the three i ndustrial hygie ne enginee r s 1 1 that you hired a fter hiring Elm er Wheeler ? 1 2 A . That' s correct . 1 3 Q . Did M r . Wheeler report to you? 1 4 A . Yes. 1 5 Q Was h i s office near yo ur office 1 6 during th e per i 0 d that he worke d , or 1 7 reported to y o u ? 1 8 A . Oh, y e s . Right. Very close. I 1 9 mean, practically adjacent, 2 0 Q. Was Mr. Garrett's office near to 2 1 yours ? 2 2 A. Yes. We were a relatively small 2 3 department, we had sort of a bull pen in 2 4 which the toxicologis ts -- Wheeler was 2 5 there, Garrett was there, the toxicologist GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 56 WATER PCB-SD0000033348 1 was the re. We all had lunch together. w e 2 shared secretaries , w e shared the same e 3 files . So we were a relatively close- knit 4 group . 5 Q Did Mr. Garrett report to you or 6 to Elmer Wheeler 7 A . To W h e e 8 Q Was Gar 9 to you? 1 0 A . Well, u 1 1 Q You in d 1 2 responsib i 1 i t y y 1 3 be responsible for safe handling data and 1 4 toxicological data on labels. To what do 1 5 you refer by the term safe handling data? 1 6 A. First, I'd like to answer that - 1 1 I want to clarify that we did not put 1 8 toxicological data on a label. 1 9 Q . Okay. 2 0 A. I think I clarified that by saying 2 1 it was in bulletins. But safe handling 2 2 means the minimum amount of information you 2 3 could put on a label to protect the man or 2 4 the user from getting any harm from the 2 5 chemical . You tell them what the proper (GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 57 WATER PCB-SD0000033349 1 -- what the proper way to avoid any 2 ill-effects from using the chemicals. 3 That ' s the safe handling data. 4 Q. When did you assume that 5 responsibility with respect to safe 6 handling data? 7 A. I'd say it was, informal, around 8 1938. It was certainly formal when I came 9 back from the service. 1 0 Q . 1945? 1 1 A. That's correct. 1 2 Q. What do you mean when you use the 1 3 term term of formal to describe this 1 4 particular responsibility? 1 5 A. Well, sort of an executive -- a 1 6 bulletin was put out from the executive 1 7 committee saying we now have this central 1 8 medical department, here are their duties 1 9 and here's what your relationship to the 2 0 medical department is. 2 1 Q. What is the executive committee to 2 2 which you referred? 2 3 A. The top brass of the company. 2 4 Q. And what do you recall, if you do, 2 5 a s the formal description of your (GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 58 WATER_PCB-SD0000033350 1 | responsibilities with respect to safe i 2 handling data? i 3 A. I don't recall what the 4 description was. That's 45 years ago. 5 Q. And what responsibility did you 6 have with respect to toxicological data in 7 bulletins? 8 A. Any toxicological data would be 9 obtained -- that would go into the -- any 1 0 bulletins or anyprinted material from 1 1 Monsanto would be the responsibility of the 1 2 medical department, they had to put it in 1 3 or they had to approve, maybe not the 1 4 editorial writing of it, but they had to 1 5 approve the facts. - 1 6 Q. Were you personally responsible 1 7 for reviewing each of the bulletins in 1 8 order to sign off on the facts? 1 9 A. Well, either ultimately I was, 2 0 whether or not Elmer Wheeler or the 2 1 toxicologists under rae would check it out. 2 2 Q. What toxicologists reported to you 2 3 during your period of service as medical 2 4 director? 2 5 A. Dr. William Hunt, Dr. Fred |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MI SSOUR I 59 WATER PCB-SD0000033351 1 Johannson, J-o-h-a-n-n-s-o-n, and Dr. 2 George Levinsksas , L-e-v-i-n-s-k-s-a-s . l 3 Q. You mentioned. Dr. Kelly, that one 4 of your responsibilities was answering 5 questions that came to Monsanto regarding 6 products, is that correct? 7 A. That's correct . 8 Q Was there a formal system for 9 routing of i nquiries to you when you 1 0 assumed your position as medical director? 1 1 A. Yes. 1 2 Q. Can you describe the formal 1 3 system? 1 4 A. The formal system was that any 1 5 inquiry by letter or telephone or personal 1 6 to -- concerning a Monsanto product made 1 7 to anybody in Monsanto would be referred to 1 8 the medical department for answer. 1 9 Q Was that policy memorialized in a 2 0 writing. i f you recall? 2 1 A . Yes , it was. 2 2 Q D o you remember what the writing 2 3 was, whether it was a memo or a policy 2 4 manual? 2 5 A . I think it was in the same [GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 60 WATER PCB-SD0000033352 I;1 memorandum -- it wasn't a policy manual , I 2 don't think, but it was i n the same t 3 bulletin, or w h a t e v e r , that was put out by 4 the executive commi 11 e e a t the time the 5 medical department was o r g a n i z e d . 6 Q. Did that policy or statement 7 change during your period of service as 8 medical director in any respect? 9 A. No, it didn't. 1 0 Q. Did you personally sign off on 1 1 customer inquiries or other inquiries to 1 2 Monsanto that came in during your period of 1 3 service as medical director? 1 4 A. I don't know what you mean by sign 1 5 off. 1 6 Q. Did you check the facts and make a 1 7 response to inquiries personally? 1 8 A. Oh, sure. 1 9 Q. Was your approval required before 2 0 anyresponse to a customer or other 2 1 outsider could be made? 2 2 A. No. In other words , if s omebody 2 3 from the Detroit sales office went into 2 4 Ford Motor and was t a] king about a 2 5 hydraulic fluid, and somebody said has this SORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 61 WATER_PCB-SD0000033353 1 been u s e d , how 1 o n g has t h is been us e d 2 have there been any p r o b 1 e ms with it 3 health - w i s e ,` he' d s a y no. I mean, h e 4 w o u 1 d n ' t s a y w e 1 1 , go and ask St, L o u i s 5 about that . But h e would then say 1 o o k 6 I'll let S t . Louis know and let them give 7 you all the ir information. The man would 8 say fine , s end me a letter. have the m call 9 me . 1 0 Q. If a written inquiry was made to 1 1 Monsanto about a particular product, did 1 2 you personally have to approve the response 1 3 to that written inquiry? 1 4 A . If it dealt with health aspects or 1 5 safe handling, yes. I personally? I mean, 1 6 the medical department personally, that 1 7 doesn't mean that I answered all of them. 1 8 I had an associate medical director. I 1 9 mean, Wheeler answered some. But the 2 0 ultimate responsibility was mine. I saw 2 1 -- we were a relatively small department 2 2 and I saw correspondence -- I mean, the 2 3 carbons of all these. 2 4 Q. Do you recollect any instances 2 5 where you reviewed a copy of a response |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOUR I 62 WATER PCB-SD0000033354 1 made by someone working for you to an 2 inquiry about a PCS product which you 3 recalled or'-- that is to say, you 4 insisted that that response be withdrawn or 5 it be changed? 6 A. I don't recall it. 7 Q . Were you on any management 8 committee or other committee during the 9 period of your service at Monsanto? 1 0 A. Wei]; no, it wasn't a -- they had 1 1 a Wednesday lunch for the department 1 2 directors and the di. vision directors and 1 3 the management, and as I said, the top 1 4 brass of the company. We met once a week 1 5 at lunch. But it was not a committee, as I 1 6 would view your term, where there was some 1 7 action done. It was more an informational 1 8 gathering. But, no, I was not on a 1 9 management committee. There were ad hoc 2 0 committees on various problems. 2 1 (Recess) . 2 2 MR. TALLON: Why don't we have the 2 3 court reporter mark as Exhibit 143 a three 2 4 page document bearing production numbers 2 5 Tran 024941 through 943. |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 63 WATER PCB-SD0000033355 1 (Transwestern Deposition Exhibit Number 2 14 3 mark'd for identification) . 3 MR.' TALLON : Dr. Kelly, I'm going 4 to show you the document that the court 5 reporter has now marked a s 143, which is 6 titled "Reported A r o c] or customer 7 incidents." And my first question to you. 8 Doctor, i. s whether yo u have see n t h a 9 d o c u m e n t before today 7 1 0 A . I don' t thin k s o . I d on 1 t 1 1 who w r o t e i t . I don' t know., I don' 1 2 I've seen it. 1 3 Q. Do you recognize the handwriting 1 4 that appears either on the foot of page 1 1 5 or at various places on page v 2 of this 1 6 exhibit? 1 7 A. No, sir, I do not. 1 8 Q. Did you ever request anyone 1 9 working for you in the medical department 2 0 to compile a list of reported customer 2 1 complaints or incidents with respect to 2 2 Aroclors? 2 3 A . No, sir. 24 - MR. PREUSS: I'm going to move to 2 5 strike the use of the word complaints. I |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 64 WATER PCB-SD0000033356 1 think the terminology is incidents. 2 MR. TALLON: Noted. Well, you can 3 put that as'ide . I'll ask you, though, 4 whether you are familiar with a customer 5 incident dating to 1950 involving a 6 customer located in Brazil, Indiana? 7 A . I'm familiar with the incident. 8 yes. 9 Q. And would you please describe what 1 0 you recall about the incident to which I've 1 1 referred? 12 A. Yes. I recall that I received a 1 3 letter or a telephone call, I don't know 1 4 which, by Dr. Spolyar, who was an official 1 5 of the State of Indiana, saying he had a 1 6 jerry-rigged -- somebody had a 1 7 jerry-rigged heat transfer unit that was 1 8 leaking and workers had worked in it for 1 9 about three days inhaling the material and 2 0 had some gastrointestinal complaints. And 2 1 I talked to Dr. Spolyar about it. I said 2 2 "Well, watch them for the possibility of 2 3 liver damage." And to the best of my 2 4 recollection -- Dr. Spolyar wrote a paper 2 5 on it, but -- I think I've seen it, but I GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 65 WATER PCB-SD0000033357 1 was unable to find it several years ago 2 the people got well. There were two or 3 three people involved. 4 Q . When you used the term 5 jerry-rigged heat transfer unit, what are 6 you referring to? 7 A. Yes. A temporary type of -- 8 t h o s e are the words he used, I d i d n ' t s 9 the installation. But a tempo r a r y type 1 0 heat transfer system. 1 1 0 . Was a Monsanto product being used 1 2 in that heat t ransfer system. to your 1 3 knowledge? 1 4 A . That' s what he told me, it was. 1 5 Q . And d id you identify from him the 1 6 product or the nature of the product? 1 7 A . I did at that time. And it says 1 8 here A r oclor 1 248, and I don' t know if 1 9 that ' s what he told me. But he told me it 2 0 was a Monsanto product. 2 1 Q Do you recollect tha t an aroclor 2 2 was involved in that particular discussion 2 3 between you and Dr. Spolyar? 2 4 A . Yes, it was. 2 5 Q. You don't remember one way or the |G 0 R E REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS , MISSOURI 66 WATER PCB-SD0000033358 1 !; other a s to whether it w as 1248 or a 2 different aroclor? 3 A. No' I don't. 4 Q. Dr. Kelly, was the phone call from 5 Dr. Spolyar the first c o mmunication to you 6 from an outs ider with r e spect to a n 7 incident inv olving an A r o c 1 o r ? 8 MR . P R E U S S : T h ere is a letter / 9 counsel. 1 0 MR . TALLON : I think that's a 1 1 communication . 1 2 A. Say that over. 1 3 Q. Yes. Was the communication to you 1 4 from Dr. Spolyar the first occasion on 1 5 which you got a communication from an 1 6 outsider about an incident involving an 1 7 Aroclor product? 1 8 A. Well, I don't remember. I just 1 9 don't remember. 2 0 Q. You indicated in your response of 2 1 a moment ago that the employees involved in 2 2 this incident had some -- or a t least Dr. 2 3 Spolyar indicated to you that the employees 2 4 had some gastrointestinal complaints , and 2 5 I'm not sure I got your answer correctly. |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 67 WATER PCB-SD0000033359 1 Did you tell him to watch for liver damage 2 or did he say that he was watching for 3 liver damage? 4 A . I think I told him. 5 Q . And can you state the reason why 6 you told him? 7 A. Yes. Our toxicological work 8 showedthat the liver is the target organ 9 in acute exposures. 1 0 (Discussion off the record). 1 1 MR. TALLON: When you said in your 1 2 answer of a moment ago. Doctor, that 1 3 toxicological work showed the liver was a 1 4 target organ in acute exposures, to what 1 5 toxicological work were you referring? 1 6 A. Drinker's and some of our own 1 7 basic toxicological work that we had 1 8 carried out that I described before. I 1 9 mean, the basic package of four different 2 0 types of toxicological experimentation; 2 1 eyes, skin, inhalation and oral. 2 2 Q. And what was -- what is the 2 3 meaning of the terminology that you used, 2 4 the liver is the target organ? 2 5 A. Well, that seems to be the one GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 68 WATER PCB-SD0000033360 1 that is most affected by a chemical in a 2 toxicological experiment. 3 Q. Most affected by a chemical? 4 A . Any chemical , whatever, depending 5 -- it may be the kidney, it may be the 6 liver, i t may be the brain, it all depends 7 on what chemical you'1 r e testing . That's 8 referred to by the toxicologists a s a 9 target organ. 10 Q. Didthe toxicological work that 1 1 you had on hand in formulating your reply 1 2 to Dr. Spolyar indicate that the liver was 1 3 the target organ of PCBs? 1 4 A. Yes. 1 5 Q . Do you recall whether the 1 6 toxicological work on hand at that time 1 7 differentiated between the Aroclor products 1 8 with respect to classifying the liver as a 1 9 target organ? 2 0 A. That's unclear to me. Would you 2 1 repeat it? 2 2 Q . I'm wondering whether the 2 3 toxicological work which you were referring 2 4 to in order to formulate your response to 2 5 Dr. Spolyar made any distinction between K30RE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 69 WATER PCB-SD0000033361 1 Aroclor 1254 or 1232 in identifying the 2 liver as a target organ? 3 A. No. I think it might be a 4 difference in the dosage, but I think the 5 target organ is the same for various 6 different Aroclors . 7 Q. Are there Aroclors for which the 8 liver is not a target organ? 9 A , I don't recall any. 1 0 Q In addition, in your a n s w e r y o 1 1 used the term acute expo s u r e s . Can you 1 2 define that term as you used it in your 1 3 answer o f a moment ago? 1 4 A. Acute exposure means one exposure 1 5 over a relatively short period of time, 1 6 whether that is hours, or in the case of 1 7 oral acute exposure whether it means one 1 8 dosing as contrasted to chronic exposure 1 9 which is a multiple exposure. 2 0 Q. Chronic means multiple, acute 2 1 means single; is that a fair statement? 2 2 A . Yes. 2 3 Q. Is there a medical s tandard for a 2 4 definition of a n acute exposure? 2 5 A. I think it depends upon who you GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 70 WATER PCB-SD0000033362 1 ask. I don't think there is a standard. ?. Q . I n your use of the term acute 3 exposure, a'r e you using any reference to 4 the volume of material to which exposure is 5 had? 6 A. Well, whatever -- when you do a n 7 L D 5 0, you have various amounts giv e n the 8 animal. And that is an acute expos u r e . 9 But the an imal is subjec ted -- the group 1 0 of animals are subjected t o varying doses 1 1 so a small dose all the way up to a big 1 2 dose. But that's al] an acute test 1 3 Q. In your experience. Dr. Kelly, is 1 4 there a particular volume of PCB material 1 5 to which a person can be exposed in order 1 6 to have that exposure be classified as an 1 7 acute exposure? 1 8 A. Well, whether you'retalking about 1 9 PCB or anything else, if you have a drop on 2 0 it of any material, that's exposure. It 2 1 may be an insignificant exposure, but it's 2 2 exposure. So it's an acute exposure. But 2 3 you don't have to immerse the whole arm, 2 4 you can do thatand that's also acute 2 5 exposure. So I find it impossible to Igore reporting company ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 71 WATER PCB-SD0000033363 1 answer your question. 2 Q. You're using the term acute to 3 mean e xposure o n one occas ion, regardless 4 of the volume o f material involved? 5 A . That ' s correct . 6 Q. I see. So physically actually 7 getting into a vat of PCBs would constitute 8 an acute exposure? 9 A. Yes. 1 0 MR. PREUSS: Assuming somebody got 1 1 out right away afterwards. 1 2 MR. TALLON: Right. Dr. Kelly, do 1 3 you recollect having been contacted by the 1 4 worker's compensation board in Toronto, 1 5 Ontario about an exposure of workers at the 1 6 -- it looks like Rinshed-Mason Company in 1 7 Canada? 1 8 A. No, sir, I do not. 1 9 Q. Does looking at the document which 2 0 we have marked as Exhibit 14 3, and 2 1 particularly the portion appearing on the 2 2 bottom of page 1 refresh your recollection 2 3 in any respect about such a contact? 2 4 A. No, it does not. 2 5 Q. Do you recall. Dr. Kelly, having |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 72 WATER PCB-SD0000033364 1 | been contacted in 1966 with respect to spot 2 exposures to fumes a t the U.S. Naval i 3 Station in Kodiak, Alaska? 4 A . No, I do not. 5 Q . Does looking a t the typed 6 information a t the top of page 2 of Exhibit 7 143 refresh your recollection in any 8 respect about such a contact? 9 A. No, sir. 1 0 Q. Do you recall. Dr. Kelly, about 1 1 being contacted in 1968 or at any time 1 2 about an exposure to fumes at the 1 3 Interchemical Corp. Prestite Division in 1 4 St. Louis, Missouri? 15 A. No. But this is not a PCB, by the 1 6 way. Aroclor 4465 is an Aroclor, but not a 1 7 PCB. 1 8 Q. Looking at that particular passage 1 9 on particular 2 of Exhibit 143 does not 2 0 refresh your recollection? 2 1 A. No, sir. 2 2 Q. Do you recollect. Doctor, being 2 3 contacted a t any time in the first quarter 2 4 of 1 9 6 9 or otherwise with respect to a n 2 5 exposure of a truck driver to Interteen GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 73 WATER_PCB-SD0000033365 1 fumes a t Westinghouse Company in Phoenix, 2 Arizona? 3 A . No', sir. 4 Q . Does looking a t the third entry on 5 page 2 of Exhibit 143 refresh your 6 recollection in any respect on that 7 subject? 8 A. No, sir. 9 Q. Doctor, do you recollect at any 1 0 time hearing of an exposure of maintenance 1 1 men resulting in hand and forearm rashes at 1 2 the Interchemical Corp. in Toledo, Ohio? 1 3 A . N o , sir. 1 4 Q And looking at the bottom of page 1 5 2 of E x hi bit 143 does not refresh your 1 6 recollect ion in any respect? 1 7 A . N o , sir. 1 8 Q Was kidney soreness an expected 1 9 result of exposure to -- acute exposure to 2 0 a PCB-bas ed product? 2 1 A . N o , it certainly was not. And I 2 2 do not know what they referred to by kidney 2 3 soreness. Usually problems with the 2 4 kidney, unless it's a kidney stone, does 2 5 not elicit any kidney soreness. So I have |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOUR I 74 WATER PCB-SD0000033366 1 | no idea what these people are talking 2 about . 3 Q. Doctor, I want to refer back for 4 just a moment to t h e communication you had 5 with Dr. Spolyar w h ich you recall. And 6 I'll have marked a s Exhibit 144 a one page 7 document dated Febr uary 6, 1950 on the 8 letterhead of the S tate of Indiana , State 9 Board of Health. 1 0 (Transwestern Depo s i t i o n E x h i bit Numb e r 1 1 144 mark'd for i d e n t i f i c a t i on). 12 MR. TALLON : I'll ask you t o just 1 3 take a look at that letter , i f you w o u Id, 1 4 please. I'll note f or the record that this 1 5 letter has four dif erent designations on 1 6 the bottom of it. I'm not sure which one 1 7 of those relates to this case. One of them 1 8 is T 091744. 1 9 A . Yes, sir. 2 0 Q. Do you recognize this letter. Dr. 2 1 Kelly? 2 2 A . Well, I recognize it, yes. And it 2 3 ties into my recollection of the whole 2 4 incident. 2 5 Q . Did you receive this letter from |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 75 WATER_PCB-SD0000033367 1 D r . Spolyar in February of 1950? 2 A . I presume I did. 3 Q. Do' you recollect that you did? 4 A . Sure. I sent him the information 5 he wanted . He asked for toxicological 6 information . 7 Q. And you responded to this, is that 8 correct? 9 A. That's correct. I asked him for 1 0 more information, I'm sure, because he said 1 1 the illness was quite vague, and he didn't 1 2 exactly know what the complaints were. 1 3 Q. As a result of your communications 1 4 with Dr. Spolyar, did you recommend that 1 5 any studies be done with respect to any 1 6 PCB-based products? 1 7 A. Studies? What type of studies? 18 Q.Any studies, toxicology studies. 1 9 A. Well, we knew the toxicology. 2 0 Q. I'm sorry, I didn't hear the end 2 1 of your answer . 2 2 A. We knew the toxicology, so I 2 3 didn't recommend any more. 2 4 Q. Do you have any recollection of 2 5 reporting your communications with Dr. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 76 WATER PCB-SD0000033368 1 Spolyar to anyone within the Monsanto 2 organization? 3 A . No. But I do not recall that 4 directly. But as a matter of procedure I 5 always told the product development -- 6 product manager about any health 7 complaints . 8 Q. When you state in your answer that 9 you always communicated to the product 1 0 manager any information about health 1 1 related complaints, was it your practice to 1 2 do so in writing or orally or both? 1 3 A. Either or both. 1 4 Q . What was your purpose for so 1 5 informing the product manager? 1 6 A . To let him know that this 1 7 situation occurred and to let him know if 1 8 he hears o f any others to let me know. 1 9 Q Do you recollect. Dr . Kelly, 2 0 having recommended any changes in product 2 1 labeling as a result of your communication 2 2 with Dr. Spolyar? 2 3 A. No. Because if they had followed 2 4 the recommendation on the labeling which 2 5 says do not inhale fumes in confined spaces , |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 77 WATER PCB-SD0000033369 1 or a t elevated temperatures this wouldn ' t 2 have happened. 3 Q . Doctor, do you recollect having 4 had any c oimunic a t i o n in t h e early 1 9 6 5 with a Mr . Allen o f H e x a g o n Labora tori 6 Inc. relating to P C B -base d product s ? 7 A . Yes. 8 Q And can you tell m e what you 9 recollect about that comm u n i c a t i o n o r 1 0 communications? 1 1 A. I thought he called me, and, 1 2 again, he said this was a heat transfer 1 3 unit that -- and I don't know whether it 1 4 was a temporary or permanent installation, 1 5 but there were leaks and the people were 1 6 exposed to the vapors. I don't know how 1 7 long. They had gastrointestinal 1 8 complaints. I don't know whether there had 1 9 been any supervision of the people so that 2 0 they followed the directions on our 2 1 labeling. And he told me that they had 2 2 gastrointestinal complaints , and I said 2 3 well, watch out for -- I don't know what 2 4 year it was, have you got the -- well, I 2 5 don't know if I advised him to have enzyme |G 0 R E REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 78 WATER PCB-SD0000033370 1 studies or liver studiesor what I said 2 watch out for the possibility of chemical 3 hepatitis . ' A n d he called me a couple of 4 weeks later and -- a week later and said 5 yes, that's true, theyshowed a little 6 jaundice. And I checked with him again 7 sometime later and he said they completely 8 recovered. Those were the only two 9 inhalation cases that I had in 38 years 1 0 with Monsanto. 1 1 Q. The only two being -- 1 2 A. Indiana and Hexagon. 1 3 Q. Would you read the answer back, 1 4 the long one? 1 5 (The requested portion of the 1 6 record read by the reporter). 1 7 A. I might add one thing to that last 1 8 statement. There was one case of 1 9 inhalation where people developed 2 0 chloracne. Those are the only two 2 1 instances where people developed liver 2 2 problems. 2 3 Q. I n the answer that I just asked 2 4 the court reporter to read back you said 2 5 you didn't know whether there was |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST . LOUIS, MISSOURI 79 WATER PCB-SD0000033371 1 supervision or whether the people involved 2 had followed the directions on the 3 labeling . There wasn't any indication on 4 the label ing about how to deal with leaks, 5 was there? 6 A. Well, no. But it says don't 7 breathe the fumes at elevated temperatures 8 or in confined spaces, no matter how it got 9 there. 1 0 Q. And in the case of a leak, 1 1 inhalation could be unavoidable, correct? 1 2 A. No, not necessarily. You don't 1 3 have to breathe the stuff over three days, 1 4 you can plug up the leak. 1 5 Q. Although in the case of an 1 6 unexpected leak, inhalation would be 1 7 unavoidable? 1 8 A . S u re . But you can turn off the 1 9 operation until you ' v e fixed i t . 2 0 Q . You me n t i o n e d in y o u r answer. 2 1 also, that you addressed the subject of 2 2 chemical hepatitis. Can you tell me how 2 3 the condition of chemical hepatitis is 2 4 related to exposure to A r o c1o r fumes, or 2 5 how you believed it to be then, rather? |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS , MISSOURI 80 WATER PCB-SD0000033372 1 A . I f you get a sufficient amount of 2 Aroclor absorbed into the system, 3 sufficient amount, and that varies with 4 species and with -- well, in humans , you 5 can get an involvement of the liver. 6 Q . I'm sorry, what of the liver? 7 A. Involvement. 8 Q . Involvement . 9 A. And that's what's known as a 1 0 chemical hepatitis, as contrasted to 1 1 infectious hepatitis, viral hepatitis, et 1 2 cetera . 1 3 Q. Are you using involvement in that 1 4 sentence as a technical term? 1 5 A. I don't think it's too technical. 1 6 I mean, the liver -- it affects the liver. 1 7 Q . Okay. I was just wondering if you 1 8 were using involvement as a technical term 1 9 as opposed to indicating that the liver was 2 0 implicated as a result of the absorption. 2 1 And your answer, I believe. was you were 2 2 not using it as a technical term? 23 A . No . 2 4 Q I n what manner is the liver 2 5 involved, what happens? (GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 81 WATER_PCB-SD0000033373 1 A . You get cloudy swelling of some of 2 the liver as well as -- depending on the 3 dosage, and' that either can progress o r 4 regress. 5 Q. Let me have marked as the next 6 exhibit in order a one page document which 7 is dated February 2, 1961. And it also has 8 several designations on it. I'll use the 9 top one, which is PRR 025477. And I ask 1 0 the court reporter to mark that, please. 1 1 (Transwestern Deposition Exhibit Number 1 2 145 mark'd for identification). 1 3 MR. TALLON: Can you take a moment 1 4 to review that, please. Dr. Kelly? 1 5 A . Yes , s i r . __ 1 6 Q. Can you identify the document for 1 7 the record? 1 8 A. It's a letter -- it's a 1 9 memorandum from me to Mr. Richard Davis, I 2 0 don't know his position, with heat transfer 2 1 department. I mean, whatever -- 2 2 industrial fluids department, I think is 2 3 probably the proper name. And I told him 2 4 about the Hexagon Laboratory incident. 2 5 Q. 13 this a carbon copy of a |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOUR I 82 WATER PCB-SD0000033374 1 memorandum that appeared on Monsanto J7 memorandum stationery? ( 3 A. Yes. 4 Q . And did you create this memorandum 5 a s part of your normal job function a t 6 Monsanto? 7 A . Yes. 8 Q Did you intend for Mr. Alien to 9 rely o n the information that appears in 1 0 this mem o ? 1 1 MR. PREUSS: Mr. Allen or Mr. 1 2 Davis? 1 3 MR. TALLON: Mr. Davis. Thank you 1 4 for that correction. 1 5 A . Yes. 1 6 Q. And was this memorandum created at 1 7 or about the time of your communication 1 8 with Mr. Allen of Hexagon Laboratories? 1 9 A. Yes, it was. I was looking for a 2 0 letter from Mr. Allen, but I don't see any. 21 Q. Okay. I want to just ask you a 2 2 question about the text of this memorandum. 2 3 Dr. Kelly. There is a sentence therein 2 4 that says, "One individual was under the 2 5 care of a physician and the physician |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 83 WATER PCB-SD0000033375 1 suspected liver damage." Do you see that? 2 A. Yes, I do. 3 Q. Do'you recollect what, i 4 anything, Mr. Allen told you about the 5 suspicions of the physician regarding liver 6 damage? 7 N o , I don't recall, And I don't 8 what Mr ., Allen meant by the term 9 damage. But Mr.Allen and I talked about 1 0 it, and I said you have to suspect effects 1 1 on the liver if you breathe sufficient 1 2 number of Aroclor -- sufficient amounts of 1 3 Aroclor 1248 at elevated temperatures. 1 4 Which is the only way you'll get it, you've 1 5 got to heat it up. 1 6 Q. Did you ask Mr. Allen whether the 1 7 two employees in question manifested 1 8 jaundice? 1 9 A. I'm sure I did, because I told him 2 0 watch out for it. 2 1 Q. Because you anticipated that as a 2 2 result of the inhalation? 2 3 A. Not as a result, a possible 2 4 result. 2 5 Q. And just one other question on 3 0 R E REPORTING COMPANY ST . LOUIS , MISSOURI 84 WATER PCB-SD0000033376 X this document D r . Kelly . Your last 2 sentence and paragraph in the memorandum 3 states, "It 'might be that you will want to 4 alert the New York office about this 5 case." Do you see that? 6 A . Yes. 7 Q . And can you state today the reason 8 why you told M r . Davis tha t he m .ight want 9 to alert the New York offi c e ? 1 0 A. Yes. I think tha t the New York 1 1 office ought t o send the s alesma n down 1 2 there to talk t o Mr. Allen and s e e how 1 3 things are getti. n g along. if the re i s 1 4 anything more w e could do. 1 5 Q . Any other reason? 1 6 A . No, sir 1 7 Q . I'm going to ask the court 1 8 reporter to mark as the n e x t e x h i b i t i n 1 9 order a letter on the stationery of Hexagon 2 0 Laboratories, dated February 14, 1961, a 2 1 one page letter which also includes 2 2 different document designations. I'll 2 3 identify it for the record as PRR 025476, 2 4 which is one of the designations. 2 5 (Transwestern Deposition Exhibit Number IGORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LODIS, MISSOURI 85 WATER PCB-SD0000033377 1 14 6 mark'd for identification). 2 M R . T A L LO N : Dr. Kelly, would you 3 please take' a moment. or however long you 4 need, and review that document? 5 A . Yes , sir. 6 Q Can you identi f y this d o c u m e n t for 7 record. Dr. Kelly? 8 A . Yes . This is a letter from M r . 9 Allen of Hexagon Laboratories to me 1 0 concerning people who -- two of his plant 1 1 personnel were -- developed some liver 1 2 problems following exposure to a broken 1 3 heat transfer unit. 1 4 Q. Was this letter to you Mr. Allen's 1 5 follow-up on the telephone conversation 1 6 described in Exhibit 145, which is your 1 7 memo of February 2, 19 6 1 ? 1 8 A . Yes, sir. that' s what he says. 1 9 Q Doctor, do you remember having 2 0 predicted to Mr. Allen that the employees 2 1 would develop symptoms of hepatitis? 2 2 A. Not would . Might . 2 3 Q. Might. Do you remember predicting 2 4 that the employees might develop symptoms 2 5 of hepatitis? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 86 WATER PCB-SD0000033378 1 A. Yes. 2 Q . Doctor, I'm going to ask the court 3 reporter to'mark as Exhibit 147 a one page 4 document, dated February 1 7 , 1 9 6 3 , which, 5 again, contains several different document 6 designations, one of them is PR R 0 2 5 4 7 5 and 7 I'll ask the court reporter to mark that. 8 (Transwestern Deposition Exhibit Number 9 147 mark'd for identification). 1 0 MR. TALLON : Would you take a 1 1 moment, please, and review that. Dr. 1 2 Kelly? 1 3 A. Yes, sir. 1 4 Q Can you identify the document for 1 5 the record? 1 6 A . It's a letter from me to Mr. Allen 1 7 of Hexagon Laboratories. 1 8 e. Is that the carbon copy of a 1 9 letter that you. in fact, s e n t to Mr. 2 0 Allen? 2 1 A . Yes, sir. 2 2 Q And did you write that letter t o 2 3 Mr. Allen in the discharge of your 2 4 responsibilities as medical director of 2 5 Monsanto? (GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 87 WATER PCB-SD0000033379 1 A . YYeess, sir. 2 Q Did you inte n d for M r . Allen 3 o n the' informati o n i n the letter? 4 A . Certainly. 5 Q. And did you create this document 6 at or about the time of the events which 7 are reflected in it? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. There is a notation or series of 1 0 notations at the very top of the page which 1 1 are partly legible. I'll state for the 1 2 record that it appears to read, "Note to 1 3 BCG's: it might be very well for us to 1 4 look over this matter of warning 1 5 individuals about leaks in an Aroclor 1 6 s y s t e m . We certainly aren ' t too e m p h a 1 7 a b o u t i t." And then the i nit i a 1 s R . E . 1 8 Do y o u believe that's what t h at s ays? 1 9 A. Yes. 2 0 Q. And R.E.K. is you? 2 1 A. That's correct. 2 2 Q. And what was the purpose of adding 2 3 this note to BCC's? 2 4 A . I think even though this was only 2 5 the second case we had in -- I don't know |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 88 WATER PCB-SD0000033380 I how long we were using that material but 2 it was probably a t least ten years in heat 3 transfer systems, that we only had two 4 cases, I thought we ought to investigate to 5 see if we ought to warn more people or do 6 something about the warning . Inasmuch as 7 we didn't have any more cases from 1961 8 reported to us to '74, whatever we did 9 seemed to work out all right. 1 0 Q. Does the phrase "we certainly 1 1 aren't too emphatic about it" mean that 1 2 there is no specific place where the i. ssue 1 3 of leaks is addressed in Monsanto product 1 4 brochures or labeling? 1 5 A. I don't think I can answer that, 1 6 because I do not know whether or not it is 1 7 addressed in Monsanto brochures or not. We 1 8 do state in the label "Don't breathe it." 1 9 Maybe I thought we might put on -- I don't 2 0 know what. I thought we ought to discuss 2 1 the whole matter. There may be information 2 2 in the bulletins that something was added, 2 3 I have no recollection. 2 4 Q . Were you anticipating that 2 5 something could be added to a label or to a |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 89 WATER PCB-SD0000033381 1 product brochure having to do with dealing 2 with lea k s ? 3 A . Yoli have to different i a t e . I 4 don't t h ink you could put it o n a 1 a b e 1 , I 5 mean, o u t s i d e of telling them don't breathe 6 the fume s . But I think we tho u g h t o f 7 seeing w hether or not some cha n g e i n the 8 product brochure might be a d v i sable . As I 9 say, w h a t e v e r we did, this was the last -- 1 0 I got no more of these all the way through 1 1 1 9 7 4. 1 2 Q And what 's the reason why i t 1 3 c o u 1 d n ' t be put on a label? 1 4 A . Well, I think space. You don't 1 5 put everything on a label, you just say 1 6 what you should do, not how you should do 17 it. 1 8 Q There is a reference. D r . Kelly, 1 9 in the second paragraph of your letter of 2 0 February 17, 1963 that states, "We do state 2 1 that the vapors emitted by Aroclor at 2 2 elevated temperatures are injurious upon 2 3 prolonged exposure and should not be 2 4 breathed." Do you see that? 2 5 A. Yes, I do. jGORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 90 WATER PCB-SD0000033382 1 Q What is meant by the phrase 2 "elevated temperatures" in the context of e 3 that sentence? 4 A . Well, elevated temperatures m 5 higher than room tempera t u r e s . How m u 6 higher. I think, depends on the p e r s o n 7 who's using it. He knows how hot it gets. 8 If you put -- at room temperature you can 9 have an open bucket of Aroclor 12 -- 1 0 whatever which one we're using -- 1248, you 1 1 can have a bucket of Aroclor .1248 out in 1 2 the room and breathe it for months and you 1 3 get no problem. How much higher y o u have 1 4 to get it varies, I think. So, elevated. 1 5 I don't know if it would be feasible to put 1 6 down do not breathe at temperatures above 1 7 200 degrees centigrade or 200 degrees 1 8 fahrenheit, I don't know. 1 9 Q . Just for point of clarification, 2 0 is it your testimony that elevated 2 1 temperatures in that sentence means 2 2 anything higher than room temperature? 2 3 A . No. Elevated temperature is 2 4 usually -- usually meant the temperatures 2 5 used in heat transfer units. In other jG 0 R E REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 91 WATER PCB-SD0000033383 1 words that's the purpose the Aroclor is 2 hot. So if you're te]ling a person not to 3 breathe the* fumes a t elevated temperatures , 4 in a heat trans fer agency you are telling 5 him not to breathe the fumes that are the 6 operational temperature of your heat 7 transfer unit, which is always hot. 8 Q. Is there a minimum temperature 9 which you're using in yourmind now as a 1 0 demarcation point for the meaning of 1 1 elevated temperatures? 1 2 A . No . 1 3 Q Is the risk to the user associ a t e d 1 4 the degree to w h ich the user heats the 1 5 Aroclor product? ,, 1 6 A. No. It's the exposure he gets, 1 7 and the amount of exposure, the amount -- 1 8 the volume of the exposure and the duration 1 9 of the exposure. Itcould be a thousand 2 0 degrees, as long as it's inside the pipe it 2 1 won't give him any problem . 2 2 Q. Does the risk to the user, 2 3 depending upon volume, vary depending upon 2 4 the temperature to which a particular 2 5 Aroclor is heated? |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS , MISSOURI 92 I WATER PCB-SD0000033384 A . Yes. There is more volatilization 2 the hotter it is. 3 Q And what is the signifi c a n c e of 4 the change i n tempera ture? How does the 5 h i g h e r temperature c a use greater ris k ? 6 A . 11 volatiliz e s more of the 7 material, more of the material turns from a 8 liquid into a gas. 9 Q. During the period that you were 1 0 medical director were any studies conducted 1 1 on the degree of volatilization as a factor 1 2 of temperature? 1 3 A. Well, I'm sure there were. They 1 4 were in our bulletins, they told them the 1 5 vapor pressure, but they weren't conducted 1 6 by the medical department. 1 7 Q. And when you used the term vapor 1 8 pressure in your answer. t o what do yo u 1 9 refer? 2 0 A . What I refer to i s the amount o f 2 1 material that is evolved a s a gas from the 2 2 liquid by changes in temperature . 2 3 Q. Is it correct. Dr. Kelly, that 2 4 more highly chlorinated Aroclors were less 2 5 volatile than lower chlorinated Aroclors? |G0 R E REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 93 WATER PCB-SD0000033385 1 Yes. 2 Q, And just as a follow-up question, 3 is it correct that the determination of 4 vapor pressure was not a function of the 5 medical department? 6 MR. PREUSS: Did you say 7 determination? 8 MR. TALLON: Determination . 9 A. No, that was done by the research 1 0 people. That was established and written 1 1 up in the bulletins. 1 2 Q. Did you ever use datacreated for 1 3 Monsanto or by Monsanto research and 1 4 development with respect to the volatility 1 5 of Aroclors as a function of temperature in 1 6 any of your work as medical director? Do 1 7 you want to read that back? 1 8 (The requested portion of the 1 9 record read by the reporter). 2 0 A . Well, certainly I knew that if you 2 1 heated material that it became more 2 2 volatile, and that's why we warned against 2 3 using it a t elevated temperatures . We did 2 4 run toxicological work on the material , on 2 5 some of the Aroclors at elevated GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST . LOUIS , MIS S OUR I 94 WATER PCB-SD0000033386 i temperatures. 2 Q. Where was it warned -- where was 3 the warning included against using the . 4 products, Aroclor products a t elevated 5 temperatures? 6 A. I think the label said do not use 7 at -- do not breathe in confined spaces or 8 at elevated temperatures . 9 Q . Just to be clear, that's not a 1 0 warning that the product shouldn't be used 1 1 at elevated temperatures, correct? 1 2 A. It was on the -- if it's on the 1 3 drum of a product that says don't breathe 1 4 it, I would think that would be a warning 1 5 about it. 1 6 Q. Right. I'm drawing a distinction 1 7 between use of the product at elevated 1 8 temperatures and breathing the product at 1 9 elevated temperatures. The warning or 2 0 labeling to which you have just referred, 2 1 I ' m asking you, isn't that a warning 2 2 against inhalation, not a warning against 2 3 use? 2 4 A . 0 h, yes. You don't warn against 2 5 using the material a t elevated temperatures | i i |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 95 WATER PCB-SD0000033387 1 if you're selling it as a heat transfer 2 fluid . That1' s the purpose of it. 3 0 . And when. i f you know, did 4 first become aware o f the fact that 5 Aroclors became more volatile when heated? 6 A . 1 9 3 7. 7 Q. Could you refer again to your 8 letter of February 1 7 , 1963, Doctor? There 9 is a reference in the last paragraph, which 1 0 I will read to you and then ask you about. 1 1 It says, "It may interest you to know that 1 2 your case is only the second that I have 1 3 heard of since 1940." Do you see that? 1 4 A. Yes, I do. 1 5 Q. And in referring to the second 1 6 case since 1940, are you referring to the 1 7 communication from Dr. Spolyar about which 1 8 we have talked this morning? 1 9 A. Yes, sir. 2 0 Q. Was there another case dating 2 1 before that communication from Dr . Spolyar? 2 2 A. Not with liver involvement. There 2 3 was a case, I told you, that involved mild 2 4 chloracne from a heat transfer unit. 25 Q . And when did that -- your |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS , MISSOURI 96 I WATER PCB-SD0000033388 1 awareness of that case occur? 2 A. You probably got it in there, in 3 that file, so I'm not sure whether it was 4 in the ' 5 0 ' s or ' 6 0 ' s . I t was by Meggs of 5 New Haven. 6 Q . Did it post-date the Hexagon 7 Laboratories case? 8 A. I can't answer that. But I think 9 we'll come to it, I believe. 1 0 Q. I'm just wondering what the 1 1 significance is of the date 1940 in that 1 2 sentence? 1 3 A. I think that's when I got 1 4 knowledgeable, when I started getting 1 5 inquiries from customers. I was the 1 6 medical director without portfolio in 1940. 1 7 Q. Do you have any understanding. 1 8 Doctor, as you sit here today, whether or 1 9 not the heat transfer system described in 2 0 this series of communications with Mr. 2 1 Allen was an open system or a closed 2 2 system? 2 3 A . A heat transfer system has to be 2 4 closed, otherwise -- it just has to be 2 5 closed, inherently. IGORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS , MISSOURI 97 WATER PCB-SD0000033389 1 (Discussion off the record) . 2 MR. T A L L 0 N : Why don't we ask the 3 court reporter to mark a s Exhibit .148 a one 4 page document bearing production number 5 Tran 053886. 6 (Transwestern Deposition Exhibit Number 7 148 mark'd for identification). 8 MR. T A L LO N : Dr. Kelly, would you 9 please take a moment and review that 1 0 document? And while you're doing so I'll 1 1 state for the record that that document 1 2 appears to be a one page letter in Dr. 1 3 Kelly to Mr. D.W. Palmer dated December 17, 1 4 1 9 5 2. 1 5 (Transwestern Deposition Exhibit Number 1 6 148 mark'd for identification). 1 7 A. Yes, sir. 1 8 Q. Will you identify this document 1 9 for the record, if you can. Dr. Kelly? 2 0 A. This is a letter from me to the 2 1 American Mutual Liability Insurance 2 2 Company, dated December 17, 1952. 2 3 Q. And is this the carbon copy of a 2 4 letter that you actually sent to Mr. 2 5 Palmer? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 98 WATER PCB-SD0000033390 1 A . Yes , it is. 2 Q Was it part of your function as 3 the m e d i cal director to send t h is letter? 4 A . Yes , it was. 5 Q And did you write this letter a t 6 or a bout the time of the events described 7 in i t ? 8 A . Yes , sir. 9 Q Did you in t e n d for Mr. Palmer to 1 0 rely o n the informati on appeari n g in it? 1 1 A. Yes, I did. 1 2 Q I want to re f e r you part i. c u 1 a r 1 y 1 3 to the s e c ond paragra ph . There i s a 1 4 statemen t starting wi t h the words 1 5 "Certain 1 Y I do not b e 1 i eve that t h e fumes 1 6 evolved at 180 degrees fahrenheit should be 1 7 breathed." Do you see that? 1 8 A.Yes,Ido. 1 9 Q. What is the basis for the 2 0 statement that "I do not believe that fumes 2 1 evolved at 180 degrees fahrenheit should be 2 2 breathed"? 2 3 A . It's my opinion that you would get 2 4 enough evolved -- material involved that 2 5 would be higher than the maximum allowable |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 99 WATER PCB-SD0000033391 1 concentration . 2 Q. And why 180 degrees? Where does e 3 that number come from? 4 A. He must have asked me in his 5 letter. 6 Q. Would it have made a difference to 7 your response if he said 160 degrees? 8 A . No, I don't t h ink s o . 9 Q . One of the q u e s t i o n s that Y o u 1 0 asked Mr. Palme r i s i f you c o u Id 1 e t m e 1 1 know the A r o c 1 o r used Wa s y o u r r e s p o n s e 1 2 in any way depe n d e n t up o n the A r o c ]. o r used? 1 3 A . Yes, I think s o . I f I k n e w which 1 4 Aroclor it was I could have our research 1 5 people tell me how much would come off at 1 6 180 degrees. If it were 1242 it might be 1 7 one thing, if it were 1260 it might be 1 8 something else. 1 9 Q. And your response relates back to 2 0 an answer that you gave earlier today 2 1 indicating that lower chlorinated Aroclors 2 2 are more volatile when heated than higher 2 3 chlorinated Aroclors? 2 4 A . That's correct . 2 5 Q. What is the reason for that [GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 100 WATER PCB-SD0000033392 1 distinction? 2 A . It's the nature of the beast . 3 Q. One other thing onthis document, 4 Dr. Kelly . The last sentence in the second 5 paragraph states , "The larger capacitor 6 manufacturers , such a s General Electric and 7 Westinghouse, have not experienced any of 8 these circumstances." Do you see that? 9 A . Yes, I do . 1 0 Q. Do you know if, or do you 1 1 recollect whether Mr. Palmer was inquiring 1 2 about use of Aroclors for capacitor 1 3 manufacture? 1 4 A. I don't recall what he was 1 5 inquiring about. 1 6 Q. Do capacitor manufacturers use 1 7 heated Aroclors , s o far a s y o u know? 1 8 A ., Well, they put the c apacitor in an 1 9 oven and heat i t up , but t h ey have vacuum 2 0 on the ovens. 2 1 Q. Was, so far as you know, the 2 2 Aroclor already installed in the capacitor 2 3 at the time that the capacitor is heated? 2 4 A. Yes. During the manufacture, yes. 2 5 Q. And the capacitor is sealed a t the (GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 101 WATER PCB-SD0000033393 1 ; time that it's h e a ted. so far a s you know? 2 A . I really don' t know much about it, 3 I've neve r been in a c apacitor plant . 4 Q . Okay. So you don't know the 5 answer to that question? 6 A . I can't answer i t . 7 Q Doctor, do you recollect 8 had a conversation during the 1 9 6 0 ' s with a 9 Mr. Louis Redmond of Chrysler Corporation 1 0 regarding a Pydraul product? 1 1 A . No, sir, I don't. 1 2 Q. Why don't we ask the court 1 3 reporter to mark as Exhibit 149 a three 1 4 page document bearing production numbers 1 5 Tran 058086 through 088. 1 6 (Transwestern Deposition Exhibit Number 1 7 149 mark'd for identification)? 1 8 MR. TALLON: Doctor, I'm going to 1 9 ask you to review this document, please. 2 0 And while you're doing that. I'll state for 2 1 the record that the document appears to be 2 2 a Monsanto Call Report, Organic Division 23 Marketing Department. My question to you. 2 4 Dr. Kelly, will be whether reviewing this 2 5 document refreshes your recollection about |G 0 R E REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 10 2 WATER PCB-SD0000033394 1 having had a communication with a Mr. Louis 2 Redmond of Chrysler Corporation during the 3 1 96 0 ' s ? * 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. Does reviewing any portion of the 6 Exhibit 149, including the handwritten 7 notation on page 2, refresh your 8 recollection as to whether or not you had a 9 communication with Louis Redmond of 1 0 Chrysler Corporation during the1960's? 1 1 A. No, it doesn't. 1 2 Q. During the period that you were 1 3 medical director did you from time to time 1 4 make telephone calls to customers at the 1 5 request of sales personnel? 1 6 A. Oh, yes. 1 7 Q. Was it in part your purpose in 1 8 making those calls to assist a sales 1 9 effort? 2 0 A . Well, indirectly. But the main 2 1 purpose was to tell the information -- 2 2 depends on the reason for the call. It was 23 either to give the man information as to 2 4 the t o x icologic a 1 aspects of the product, 2 5 whether or not there is any potential GORE REPORTING COMPANY S T . LOUIS, MISSOURI 1 03 WATER_PCB-SD0000033395 1 avenues of harm to a worker from the 2 product and answer what questions they had 3 about the safety of the product . I f that 4 helped the sales effort, fine. But the 5 main problem was to be sure our product 6 could be used safely. 7 Q . When you used the termindirectly 8 in your last answer, did you mean to 9 suggest if the information was provided to 1 0 the person to whom you spoke, then that 1 1 might aid the sales effort? 1 2 A. If he didn't want to use the 1 3 product b e c a u s e he did n ' t know a n y t h i n g 1 4 about the toxi city, he was w o r r i e d about 1 5 the toxi city. and if I was able to e x p 1 a i n 1 6 to him the saf e use of the p r o d u c t, how i t 1 7 had been used safely, that would certain 1 Y 1 8 help the sales effort . But that' s the 1 9 indirect extra dividend o f i t . 2 0 Q. Just refer back to that exhibit 2 1 one more moment. Dr. Kelly, please. And on 2 2 page 2, can you tell me whether that is 2 3 Elmer Wheeler's handwriting? 2 4 A. Yes, it is. 2 5 Q. Doctor, do you have any GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 104 WATER_PCB-SD0000033396 1 recollection of having discussed a n 2 employee complaint regarding a P y d r a u 1 3 product whete the employee was an employee 4 of Helman International? 5 A. I don't recall it. 6 Q. Why don't we have the court 7 reporter mark as the next exhibit a one 8 page document bearing production number 9 Tran 062752. 1 0 (Transwestern Deposition Exhibit Number 1 1 150 mark'd for identification). 1 2 A. No, sir, this doesn't change my 1 3 lack of recollection. 1 4 Q. In other words, reviewing this one 1 5 page document which appears to be a telex 1 6 does not refresh your recollection on the 1 7 subject of having communicated with someone 1 8 on the subject of a Welman International 1 9 employee? 2 0 A. No, sir, it does not. 2 1 Q. Dr. Kelly, did you see telexes 2 2 like this one while you were employed by 2 3 Monsanto? 2 4 A. Yes. 2 5 Q. Are you able to ascertain from a ] i |G0RE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 105 WATER PCB-SD0000033397 1 review of the document before you the date 2 of this telex? 3 A . No', I a m not. 1 0 November 4 something, but -- I'm not. 5 MR. PREUSS: Not 1134, we don't 6 think. 7 MR. TALLON: Certainly not. I'm 8 going to ask the court reporter to mark as 9 Exhibit 151 a one page document bearing 1 0 production number Tran 019659. 1 1 (Transwestern Deposition Exhibit Number 1 2 151 mark'd for identification). 1 3 MR. TALLON: Would you take a 1 4 moment and review that document.Doctor, 1 5 which I will describe for the record as a 1 6 document which appears to be a copy of a 1 7 letter from Dr. Kelly to Dr. Spolyar, dated 1 8 February 14, 1950. 1 9 A. Yes, sir. 2 0 Q. Can you identify the document for 2 1 the record, please? 2 2 A. It's a letter from me to Dr. 2 3 Spolyar of the Indiana State Board of 2 4 Health, dated February 14, 1950. 2 5 Q . Earlier we saw a n exhibit which GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 106 WATER PCB-SD0000033398 1 was Dr. Spolyar's letter t o you. I s this 2 your response to him? 3 M R * P R E U S S : Wait a minut e . Which 4 one are you talking about? 5 MR . TALL ON : Exhibit 144. 6 MR . P R E U S S : Thank you. 7 A . Well, I don ' t know if t h a t was in 8 response to this -- to Dr. Spolya r ' s 9 letter of February 6th. Waiting eight days 1 0 in a case like this to anofficial report 1 1 of health was not our official procedure, 1 2 so I think there was some other 1 3 communication in between. I think I talked 1 4 to him in between there. But it was in 1 5 response to the same incident. 1 6 Q. Are you suggesting by your answer 1 7 that you had a practice of responding more 1 8 rapidly than an eight day time frame to a 1 9 request for information from an official 2 0 state agency? 2 1 A.No, from any doctor about a 2 2 patient. 2 3 Q . I want to refer you to the third 2 4 full paragraph in the letter. Doctor . The 2 5 first sentence states that "The toxicology |G 0 R E REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 1 07 WATER PCB-SD0000033399 1 j! of Aroclors is somewhat confused." Do you 2 see that? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And you're referring in that 5 paragraph to the work of Dr. Drinker, 6 correct? 7 A . Yes. 8 Q And is the c onfusion his f i n d i n g 9 that A r o c 1 o r 1254 was considerably more 1 0 toxic o n i n h a lation than Aroclor 1 2 6 8 ? 1 1 A . Well , it's m ore than that 1 2 Q - What is the confusion? 1 3 A . The confusio n was that Dr . D r i n k e r 1 4 ran a compound that he said was 1265, which 1 5 we do n't make, but we make a chlorinated 1 6 d i p h e nyl benzene which is 4465 , and t h a 1 7 was q uite toxic. And then he wrote i t 1 8 as an Aroclor -- PCB, where i t was not 1 9 P C B , it was a chlorinated diphenyl 2 0 b e n z e ne. I called Drinker and said, "What 2 1 goes on? This doesn't look like what our 2 2 e x p e r ience has been. This isn't a s toxic 2 3 as y o u ' r e talking a b o u t . Where did you get 2 4 the 1 2 6 5 ? And, in fa c t , we don' t make a 2 5 1 2 6 5 , w e make a 12 6 8 and a 1260. " And he GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 1 08 WATER PCB-SD0000033400 1 said " I got i t from Hal o w a x . " That was the 2 people we so 1 d the prod u c t s t o . I said " I 3 will send y 6 u some hone s t to goodness 1268 4 that we make ourself. I'll s end it from 5 our producti o n line." So we s e n t it to him 6 and he teste d and found it w a s a tenth as 7 t o x i c as the material h e was t a Iking 8 a b o u t . Sol ' m not -- I must h ave added t o 9 the confusio n myself w h e n I s a y I don't - 1 0 I f i n d it ha r d to e x p1 a in t h i s statement 1 1 "The c o n f u s i o n existed in his f indings that 1 2 A r o c lor 1254 r which is the d i ph e n y 1 1 3 c h 1 o r i n a t e d t O only 54 p e r c e n t , was 1 4 cons iderably more toxic on in h a 1 a t i o n . " W e 1 5 did not supply him with this m a t e r i a 1 . S o 1 6 I ' m a little confused about tha t . 1 7 Q. Do you know, independent of the 1 8 Drinker work, whether 1254 was more toxic 1 9 than 1268 on inhalation? 2 0 A . W e didn't run 1268 on i nhalation 2 1 we ran 12 4 2 and 1254. And I don ' t know 2 2 whether Drinker -- at this date I cannot 2 3 tell you whether Drinker ran 1268 on 2 4 inhalation . I'm not sure. 2 5 Q . Are you stating, in essence, that [GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 10 9 WATER_PCB-SD0000033401 1 j you're not sure what you meant today by the 2 confusion described in the third paragraph 3 of this letter? 4 MR. PREUSS: You mean meant then 5 or today? 6 MR. TALLON: Can't describe today 7 what he meant then. 8 MR. PREUSS : Fine. 9 A . Well, I don't know why I brought 1 0 1254 into it, I'm confused on that myself. 1 1 But I know Drinker's big problem was 1 2 calling a chlorinated diphenyl benzene a 1 3 PCB, when they're not, they're completely 1 4 different. 1 5 (Noon Recess). 16 MR. TALLON: All right. We're 1 7 back on the record after our lunch break. 1 8 Dr. Kelly, do you have any recollection of 1 9 having received an inquiry from Unilever, 2 0 the English company, about the toxicity of 2 1 Aroclor 1242 during the 1 9 6 0 ' s ? 2 2 A . No, sir. 2 3 Q. Why don't we have marked as 2 4 Exhibit 152 a one pagedocument bearing 2 5 production numbers Tran 008403, which is a [GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 110 WATER PCB-SD0000033402 1 document on Monsanto Chemicals Limited 2 letterhead, dated June 9, 1964. 3 (Transwestern Deposition Exhibit Number 4 15 2 mark ' d for identification) . 5 MR. TALLON : Would you take a 6 moment , please, and review that document. 7 Dr. Kelly? 8 A . Yes , sir. I have look e d it o v e r . 9 Q Do you r e c o 1 1 e c t h a v i n g recei v e d 1 0 the original of E x h i b i t 1 5 2? 1 1 A . No . I'm s u r e I recei v e d i t . 11 1 2 sort of an interesting article, that Dr. 1 3 Parsons should be loo king for som e t h i n g to 1 4 kill chi ckens. I don ' t know. B u t , no, I 1 5 have no recollection o f this even after 1 6 reading this. 1 7 Q Setting this particular doc u m e n t 1 8 aside, d o you have a r e c ollection o f any 1 9 communic ations that y o u may have had with 2 0 Unilever on the subje c t of Aroclo r s ? 2 1 A . No, sir. 2 2 Q . Doctor, do y o u have any 2 3 understanding whether the term "K i 1 1 e r 2 4 compound " is a term o f ar t ? 2 5 A . I never heard i t before . |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 111 WATER PCB-SD0000033403 1 Q. Why don't we have marked as the 2 next exhibit, number 153, a two page 3 document bearing production numbers Tran 4 012178 and 79. 5 (Transwestern Deposition Exhibit N u mb e t 6 15 3 mark'd for identification) . 7 MR. T A L L 0 N : Could you take a 8 moment and review that document. Dr. Kelly? 9 A . Yes. 1 0 Q While you're doing that I'1 1 1 1 describe the document for the record . 11 1 2 appears to be a two page memorandum dated 1 3 December 19, 1958. 1 4 A . Yes, s i r . 1 5 Q Can y o u identify thg docume n t, Dr. 1 6 Kelly? 1 7 A . Yes. It's a letter -- thi s i s a 1 8 document from R .D. Minteer and mysel f to 1 9 D.F. Smi t h cone e r n i n g the labeling o f 2 0 Pydrauls 2 1 Q And do you re member working on 2 2 this document? 2 3 A . I have a vague recollection , but 2 4 no more than t h a t . 2 5 Q I s t h a t your signature whic h IGORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS , MISSOURI 1 12 WATER PCB-SD0000033404 1 appears on page 2 ? 2 A . Yes , it is. 3 Q And can you identify M r . Minteer ' s position i n 1 9 58 ? 5 A . H e was in charge of 1 a b e 1 i n g and 6 p a c k a g i n g for the organic division, which 7 was the d i v i s i o n that manu factured 8 Pydrauls. 9 Q. Do you know if Mr. Minteer is 1 0 still living today? 1 1 A. I don't know. He is not working 1 2 for Monsanto any more. 1 3 Q. Do you know a Mr. D.F. Smith who 1 4 was an employee of Monsanto in December of 15 1958? 1 6 A. Yes. He was, I think, in the 1 7 marketing department, industrial fluids. I 1 8 don't know if he's t h ere. 1 9 Q . And what was Mr . C.E. Caspari ' s 2 0 p o s i t i on with M o n s a n t o in December of 1 9 5 8 ? 2 1 A. He was an associate counsel. He 2 2 is dead. 2 3 Q. And what was Mr. Newcombe's 2 4 position with Monsanto in 1958? 2 5 A . He also was, I believe, in the GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 1 13 WATER PCB-SD0000033405 1 marketing business I don't know anything 2 about his where a b o u t s . 3 Q Dottor , a re you able to s t a t e 4 today w h e t h e r you drafted any p o r t i o n of 5 this two page m e m o r a n d u m ? 6 A . I'm sure I did. But this i s 7 M i n t e e r ' s s e c r e tar y did i t , but I si g n e d 8 it. I ' m sure I h e 1p e d in the drafti n g of 9 it. 1 0 Q Let me j u s t ask you a c o u p 1 e of 1 1 guest ions about i t , given your 1 2 under s t a n ding - - o r know! edge of the 1 3 document, rather. There is a -- th e 1 4 document appears to relate to a labe ling 1 5 issue with respect to Pydraul produc t s , 1 6 correct? 1 7 A. Yes. 1 8 Q. It is suggested by this mem orandum 1 9 that the label state, among other th i n g s , 2 0 "Contains chlorinated hydrocarbons," 2 1 correct? 2 2 A . Yes. 2 3 Q. Is the termchlorinated 2 4 hydrocarbons synonymous with 2 5 polychlorinated biphenyls? |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS , MISSOURI 114 WATER_PCB-SD0000033406 1 A . 0 h , n o . Chlorinated hydrocarbons 2 is a generic term that relates to anything 3 having chloVine, hydrogen and carbon in 4 it. Carbon tetrachloride, which used to be 5 used for cleaning typewriters , is a 6 chlorinated hydrocarbon. So chlorinated 7 biphenyl is a chlorinated hydrocarbon, but 8 all hydrocarbons -- but they make up only 9 a small percentage of chlorinated 1 0 hydrocarbons . 1 1 Q. To your knowledge. Dr. Kelly, did 1 2 any of the Pydraul products described in 1 3 the second paragraph of this memo contain 1 4 polychlorinated biphenyls? 1 5 A. Yes. I know the Pydrauls did, 1 6 yes. 1 7 Q. Do you know if all of those 1 8 products listed there included 1 9 polychlorinated .biphenyls as a constituent 2 0 element? 2 1 A. To the best of my recollection, 2 2 yes. 2 3 Q. Are you aware today of any reason 2 4 why the proposal was to state "Contains 2 5 chlorinated hydrocarbons" as opposed to Igore reporting company ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 115 WATER PCB-SD0000033407 1 "Contains polychlorinated biphenyls"? 2 A. Oh, I think it complied with the 3 law. The 1h w said anything that contains 4 chlorinated hydrocarbons shall have that 5 statement on it. 6 Q . Right . Is there any reason why 7 -- that you know of today why the 8 suggestion was not "Contains 9 polychlorinated biphenyls"? 1 0 A. No. I don't know of any reason. 1 1 Q. Doctor, just one or two other 1 2 questions. There is a sentence in the last 1 3 paragraph on the first page which states 1 4 "However, we have never had such a caution 1 5 statement during the many years of their 1 6 manufacture and it would very probably 1 7 cause considerable unrest in the 1 8 transformer plants." Do you see that? 1 9 Yes, s i r . 2 0 Do you know to what that statement 2 1 that is to say. what is meant by 2 2 considerable unrest in the transformer 2 3 plants? 2 4 A. Well, I would imagine that it 2 5 means here the people have been using this |G 0 R E REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 116 WATER PCB-SD0000033408 1 compound for years, it comes in the same 2 way with a warning statement or caution 3 statement oh it, they 're saying "What goes 4 on? Have you changed the product? " So I 5 think that unrest is a term, probably, I 6 would not use today. I'd say inquiry in 7 the trans former plants . 8 MR. PREUSS: Just for my 9 clarification, did you preface your 1 0 question with respect to limiting it to 1 1 transformer fluids, which I think that 1 2 paragraph does? 13 MR. TALLON: I only read that 1 4 sentence. Certainly the paragraph, I 1 5 believe, refers to Pyranol and Interteen, 1 6 which I believe are dielectric fluids, 1 7 correct? 1 8 A. That's correct. 1 9 MR. PREUSS: But it does say in 2 0 the case of transformer fluids which are 2 1 composed of, and then it goes on to speak 2 2 of the transformer fluids . 2 3 MR. TALLON: Right. Doctor, do 2 4 you have an understanding today of the 2 5 difference between the usage of Pydraul (GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 117 WATER PCB-SD0000033409 1 fluids and Pyranol and I nerteen on the 2 other hand? 3 A . Y e fe 4 Q Can you tell us what that 5 understan din g is? 6 A . S o m e are used i n trans formers and 7 some are use d in hydraul ic presses. 8 Q W h i c h is which? 9 A . The Pyranol or Inerteen are trade 1 0 names for t h e dielectric s of G.E. and 1 1 Westinghouse . And Pydra uls are Monsanto's 1 2 trade nam e f or its use i n hydraulic fluids. 1 3 MR . PREUSS: So the Pyranol and 1 4 Inerteen ref er to transf ormer fluids. 1 5 correct? 1 6 A. Yes. Pyranol is G.E.'s trademark 1 7 for their transformer fluid, Inerteen is 1 8 Westinghouse 's . 1 9 MR. TALLON: And both of those 2 0 companies were customers of Monsanto? 2 1 A. Yes. 2 2 Q. Doctor, do you recollect 2 3 expressing any disagreement with the last 2 4 paragraph on -- or, rather, the only 2 5 sentence on page 2 of this two page GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST . LOUIS, MISS OUR I 118 WATER PCB-SD0000033410 1 memorandum? 2 A. What was the first -- 3 Q. Yes, Do you recollect having 4 expressed any disagreement with respect to 5 that statement? 6 A . No. 7 Q. Doctor, I want to show you a one 8 page document which doesn't have a 9 production number on it. It does have a 1 0 designation at the bottom that says 1 1 "Attachment 3-2." And I'll ask the court 1 2 reporter to mark that as Exhibit 154 and to 1 3 show it to you. 1 4 (Transwestern Deposition Exhibit Number 1 5 15 4 mark ' d for identi f i c a t ion ) 1 6 M R . TALLON: Wo u 1 d you t a k e a 1 7 moment to rev iew that do cum e n t ? 1 8 A . Yes, I remember i t * 1 9 Q Can you describ e i t for t h e 2 0 record. pleas e ? 2 1 A . This is a memorand u m > y L . A . Watt, 2 2 dated 0 c t o b e r 11, 1937, i n w h i c h h e writes 2 3 some safe handling -- or some safe 2 4 handling data and possible ill-effects, or 2 5 the ill-effects in experimental animals, |G 0 R E REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 119 WATER PCB-SD0000033411 1 and he quotes me -- he quotes -- he 2 mentions that he talked to me before these 3 paragraphs Were written and we agreed they 4 could be used not only in the A r o c1 o r 5 booklet, but quoted in correspondence as 6 that may be necessary . 7 Q. Do you recall discussing the first 8 three paragraphs of this memorandum with 9 L . A . Watt? 1 0 A. Yes, I do. 1 1 Q. And what was Watt's position in 1 2 October 1937? 1 3 A. He was a head of what they called 1 4 the technical services department of the 1 5 organic chemical division of the Monsanto 1 6 company . 1 7 Q. And what was his job function, if 1 8 you know? 1 9 A. Well, among other things, he was 2 0 helping in writing the safe handling data 2 1 on products of that division before I 2 2 showed up. And he obviously had other 2 3 duties in the technical services . 2 4 Q. Do you know if Mr. Watt is still 2 5 living today? [GORE reporting company ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 120 WATER PCB-SD0000033412 1 A . I know he isn't 2 Q . T h e memorandum by Mr . Watt, dated 3 October 1 1 , * 1 9 3 7 , has a t the foot of it a 4 designation"Attachment 3 - 2 . " Do you know 5 whether this single piece of paper that 6 constitutes the exhibit is part of a 7 greater document, that is to say, a 8 document with additional pages? 9 A. No, sir. 1 0 Q. Do you know what experimental work 1 1 is referred to in the first paragraph of 1 2 this memorandum? 1 3 A. I think -- I believe it is 1 4 Drinker's work. 1 5 Q . And when the p h r a s e " high 1 6 temperatu res" is used in the f i r s t 1 7 paragraph , do you know t 0 what t h a 1 8 refers? Are there a range o f temp 1 9 A . I don't know the range. 2 0 Q. Do you know what is meant by the 2 1 phrase "systemic toxic effects" as it is 2 2 used i n the first paragraph? 2 3 A . Yes. It just means ill -effects 2 4 the body a s a whole, rather than local 2 5 effects on the skin. |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 121 WATER PCB-SD0000033413 1 Q . Do you know what particular 2 systemic toxic effects are referred to a s a 3 result of the experimental work in animals 4 referred to in that paragraph? 5 A . Yes. 6 Q . Which? 7 A. Liver. 8 Q. Anything else? ' 9 A. No, sir. 1 0 Q. Do you know if the language 1 1 encompassing paragraph 1 of this memorandum 1 2 was used in any labeling or product 1 3 d e v e 1 o pment brochure produ c e d by Mon santo 1 4 A . No, I don't know for sure . I 1 5 don'1 t recall what happened t o the bo o k 1 e t 1 6 but w e both -- both Watt and I a g r e e d t h 1 7 it could be used in the Aroclor booklets. 1 8 Q. Do you recall seeing an Aroclor 1 9 booklet which included the language that 2 0 oral ingestion or exposure to vapor at high 2 1 temperatures will lead to systemic toxic 2 2 effects? 23 A. Ican't recall whether I -- it 2 4 was in that exact language or not. 2 5 Q. Do you recall ever seeing a |G 0 R E REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 122 WATER PCB-SD0000033414 1 product brochure or label that included a 2 reference to systemic toxic effects? 3 A . 0f` some sort or other, yes, I've 4 seen those. 5 Q . Do you know which particular 6 brochures or booklets you're thinking of? 7 A. Since 1937 we've probably had 40 8 different Aroclor booklets, and I can't 9 pick one out. But usually in every Aroclor 1 0 booklet we had a statement on toxicity and 1 1 safe handling, that was almost universal. 1 2 Q. When you're using the term Aroclor 1 3 booklet. how are you using it? 1 4 A . Well, that's the name o f the 1 5 booklet . I t says Aroclor on i t . 1 6 Q Was there a separate b o oklet for 1 7 each of the Aroclor products? 1 8 A . N o . Not necessarily. They had 1 9 booklets t h a t encompassed the w h ole range 2 0 of Aroclors, they had booklets r o r 2 1 bulletins or brochures that 1 i S t ed specific 2 2 Aroclors for specific purposes If an 2 3 Aroclor were going to be used i n a 2 4 transformer, they had -- Aroclors in 2 5 transformers is what the title would be. |GO R E. REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 123 WATER PCB-SD0000033415 1 I f they w e r e going to be us e d as a 2 plasticiz e r / they would say A r o c 1 o r s a s 3 t plasticiz e r s , and so on. 4 Q . D o y ou today recol 1 e c t h a v i n g s een 5 an Aroclo r b o o k .1 e t dealing with the use o f 6 Aroclors a s 1 ubricating flu ids? 7 A . I c a n't say I reme m b e r it. 8 Q D o y ou have a reco llection o f 9 having ev e r s een any produc t literat u r e 1 0 that deal t w i th the product Turbinol 1 5 3 1 1 that included the language "systemic toxic 1 2 effects"? 1 3 A. Not under those -- under that 1 4 name, I do not. But some of the 1 5 ingredients that were used in Turbinol may 1 6 have been listed under OS numbers or MCS 1 7 numbers that would have included it. 1 8 Q. Do you recall seeing a booklet or 1 9 brochure for MCS- 15 3 that included the 2 0 language "systemic toxic effects"? 2 1 A. I don't recall it. I certainly 2 2 may have. 2 3 Q. Do you recall seeing a product 2 4 brochure or other document relating to 2 5 0 S- 81 that included the words "systemic |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 12 4 WATER PCB-SD0000033416 1 toxic effects"? 2 A. I've seen the bulletins, but I 3 cannot recall a t present what it included . 4 I very probably did. 5 Q But you don't recall? 6 A . No. But that was our P 1 i c y 7 u d e it in all new products, n e w 8 development products. 9 Q. Do you, by the way, ever recall 1 0 seeing a label for any of the three 1 1 products, those we've just named, that 1 2 included the language "systemic toxic 1 3 effects"? 1 4 A. That would not be usually put on a 1 5 label, no. 1 6 Q Why would t h a t not be u s u a 1 ? 1 7 A . Because ther e i s only s o much you 1 8 can put on a label , a n d you put o n a 1 a b e 1 1 9 the information to k e ep a person f r o m 2 0 g e 11 i n g harmed by the product. 2 1 Q I want to r e f e r you to t h e s e c o n d 2 2 paragraph of this one page exhibit. 2 3 Doctor. There is a reference to an 2 4 acne-form skin eruption. Is that a 2 5 reference to chloracne? |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS , MISSOURI 125 WATER PCB-SD0000033417 1 A . Yes. 2 0 What is c hloracne, exactly? 3 A . Chloracne is a skin eruption 4 similar to teenage acne that is more 5 serious , it may be accompanied by 6 pigmentation that is somewhat more severe, 7 that is caused by exposure to chlorinated 8 compounds. Not necessarily only PCB, any 9 number of chlorinated compounds cause 1 0 chloracne . 1 1 Q. Is chloracne caused by exposure to 1 2 PCBs ? 1 3 A . Not by exposure. by s u f f i c i e n t 1 4 exposure . P rolonged expos u r e . 1 5 Q I s the chloracne which i s caused 1 6 by s u f fi c i e n t exposure to P C B s a s ysteinic 1 7 condition? 1 8 A . T h a t's what it's believ e d to be. 1 9 and I believ e it, also. 2 0 Q And how do you de fine s y s t e m i c a 2 1 used in your response to m y q u e s t i on? 2 2 A . Th a t is a n action on t h e various 2 3 elements o f the skin cause d b y a b s o r p t i o n 2 4 of the offending agent and not due to local 2 5 contact with the skin. Not due to local |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 12 6 WATER PCB-SD0000033418 1 action on the skin rather than local 2 contact. 3 Q . And are you familiar with the term 4 dermatitis? 5 A . Yes. 6 Q . And how do you define dermatitis ? 7 A . Dermatitis is either a n 8 inflamation or a n infection of the skin. 9 Q. And is there a difference between 1 0 a systemic condition resulting in chloracne 1 1 and dermatitis resulting in chloracne? 12 A. Well, dermatitis is a name for the 1 3 disease of the skin, and chloracne is a 1 4 dermatitis, but it's caused by systemic 1 5 action. Just like hives from strawberries 1 6 is a dermatitis due to ingestion of 1 7 strawberries and a systemic reaction to 1 8 strawberries . 1 9 Q. What is the systemic function 2 0 implicated by chloracne caused by 2 1 sufficient exposure to PCBs? 2 2 A. What is the systemic function? I 2 3 don't know what that means . 2 4 Q. What system is it that c a u s e s 2 5 chloracne based on sufficient exposure to ! (GOREREPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 127 WATER PCB-SD0000033419 1 PCBs ? 2 A . Presumably, something to do with 3 fat metabolism . 4 Q. During the period that you were 5 medical director did you commission any 6 studies t o determine the relations hip 7 between chi oracne and exposure to PC B s ? 8 A . H e knew that if you got e x c e s s i v e 9 amount -- excessive exposure you may get 1 0 chloracne . 1 1 Q. And can you place in time when you 1 2 first knew that? 1 3 A. Yes. 1937. 1 4 Q. And upon what do you base that 1 5 answer? 1 6 A. There was information in the 1 7 literature that Swann Chemical Company had 1 8 lawyers -- had workers develop chloracne 1 9 in their PCB department due to the use of 2 0 an off - speci fication benzene in the 2 1 manufacture of a material. 2 2 Q. Doctor, the October 11, 1937 memo 2 3 refers tothe use of protective clothing, 2 4 in paragraph 3? 2 5 A. Yes, sir. |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 1 28 WATER PCB-SD0000033420 1 Q. And for what purpose was i 2 l protective c 1 o thing recommended? 3 A . If* you were in a n operation where 4 you're liable to have spills or splashes 5 you put something on to keep it from 6 getting on your skin. 7 Q , And, Doctor, one other question. 8 Have you ever seen a label for Turbinol 9 153, MCS-153 or OS-81 that included a 1 0 reference to chloracne? 1 1 A. No, sir. I said before it did not 1 2 list w h a t w o u 1 d h a p p e n . 0 n a g a s o 1 i n e tank 1 3 you say d o n o t use mat c h e s , t h e y don' t say 1 4 don' t us e mat c h e s , i t ' s g o i n g to blow Y o u 1 5 the next county. 1 6 Q Did you ever see a product 1 7 u r e or specifications for one 1 8 three products that included a reference to 1 9 chloracne? 2 0 A. Yes. I cannot recall at present. 2 1 but I'm s ure we did have information 2 2 relating t o the p o s s i b 1 e occurrence of 2 3 chloracne i n relation to two of the 2 4 products . I did not see -- I do not 2 5 recall any on Turbinol . Is it Turbinol ? (GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS , MISSOURI 1 29 WATER PCB-SD0000033421 1 A . Yes. 2 Q. Turbinol 153. 3 A. Thfe OS's and the MCS's, it's my 4 recollection that there were bullet:ns on 5 that that included possible ill-effects . 6 Q . Are you r e f e r r i n g in your an s w e r 7 specifically t o 0 S- 8 1 an d MCS-153 or 0 S 8 products and M C S product s generically 9 A. I thought OS-51 was specific, but 1 0 I'm not sure. Was it 51 or 61? 1 1 Q . 8 1. 1 2 A . I can't be sure. 1 3 Q Why don't we mark as Exhibit 155 a 1 4 one page document - - just before we do 1 5 that , Dr . Kelly, we were j ust talking about 1 6 Exhibit 154, which was the memo from Mr. 1 7 Watt. Do you recall getting a copy of that 1 8 at or about the time it was dated? 1 9 A . I don't remember. but .i t w o u 1 d 2 0 standard office p rocedure that I w o u 1 d . 2 1 Q - Did you maintain a f i 1 e i n your 2 2 office or for use by your o f f i c e s w i t h 2 3 respect to labeling of PCB-based products? 2 4 A . Yes, sir. 2 5 Q . I was about to ask the court |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 13 0 WATER PCB-SD0000033422 1 reporter to mark as Exhibit 155 a one page 2 document b e a rin g a number of document 3 number designations , the most recent of 4 which may be T 091748. 1 1 appears to be a 5 one page document, dated February 1 2 , 6 1 9 5 4. 7 (Transwestern Deposition Exhibit Number 8 155 mark'd for identification)? 9 MR. TALLON: Would you take a 1 0 moment, please, and review that document? 1 1 A . Yes, s i r, I've read it. 1 2 Q Can you i d e n t i fy the document? 1 3 A . It's a letter memorandum from me 1 4 to Dr. Newman, w ho was i n charge of our 1 5 plant at Newport , E n g 1 a n d , dated February 1 6 12, 1954 1 7 Q Was it part of your job to write 1 8 this memo? 1 9 A . Yes, si r . 2 0 Q Did you intend for Dr. Newman to 2 1 rely on the info r m a t i o n in it? 2 2 A . Yes, si r . 2 3 Q And did you w ri t e it on or about 2 4 the date that it is date d, that is to say 2 5 February 12, 195 4 ? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 13 1 WATER PCB-SD0000033423 1 A . Yes sir 2 Q. Were you responding to some 3 inquiry from Dr. Newman in authoring t h i s 4 memo? 5 A. Yes. I'm sure, because the 1 a s t 6 paragraph says don't worry about asking m e 7 these questions, so he must have asked m e 8 some questions. 9 Q. Do you remember if Dr. Newman' s 1 0 inquiry to you was a written one? 1 1 A. Yes. I'm sure -- I feel quit e 1 2 h e didn't call me fro m E n g 1 a n d . 1 3 Q In 1954? 1 4 A . Yes. 1 5 Q I wanted to refer you to the 1 6 handwriting which is somewhat legible that 1 7 appears towards the middle of the page. Is 1 8 that your handwriting? 1 9 A. It doesn't look like it. I can't 2 0 even make it out. 2 1 Q. The third paragraph of the 2 2 memorandum states, "What we were really 2 3 worrying about was the possibility that a 2 4 man would develop hepatitis," and so 2 5 forth. To what worry does that refer? [GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 132 WATER PCB-SD0000033424 1 A . I t refers to the possibility that 2 a man would develop hepatitis and blame the 3 paint that he used a t a time in the past a s 4 the cause of his hepatitis . 5 Q. There is a sentence which follows 6 the sentence I just read from. I did not 7 read the full sentence, but there is a 8 sentence following the sentence I just read 9 from stating, "I a m afraid that we might be 1 0 convicted by association," et cetera? 1 1 A . Yes. 1 2 Q Is the meani n g of t h at s e n t e n c e 1 3 that you were afraid that Mon santo m ig h t be 1 4 held liable for such a con d i t ion on the 1 5 part of a painter? 1 6 A . Well, I don ' t k n o w a bout t h e 1 7 liability . I mean, a pain ter may b e 1 i e v e 1 8 that Aroclor paint had som e a s s o c i a t ion 1 9 with his hepatitis . 2 0 Q And so what - 2 1 A . I can't address my s e If to your 2 2 liability question . 2 3 Q What did you mean w h e n you used 2 4 the term "we might be c o n v i c t e d " ? 2 5 A . In somebody's mind. CORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 13 3 WATER PCB-SD0000033425 1 There is a sentence in the first 2 paragraph of this mem ora n d u m that states , 3 "We have run animals for about 60 days a t 4 seven tim es this and f o u n d s o m e 1 i v e r 5 damage . " Do you see t h a t ? 6 A . Yes, sir. 7 Q Does that se n t e nee refer to a 8 study or a series of s t u dies ? 9 A . It refers to a s e r i e s of studies 1 0 that we were running a t the Uni v e r sit y of 1 1 Cincinnat i by Dr. Tre o n , T - r - e - o - n 1 2 Q And to the b e s t o f your 1 3 recollect ion, when we r e t h o s e stud i e s 1 4 completed? 1 5 A . Sometime in '54. 1 6 Q > When you used the term series o f 1 7 t u d i e s , are you referring to more tha n one 1 8 report resulting from a study? 1 9 A. No. I think it's all parts of the 2 0 same study. In other words, this man 2 1 started out presumably around 7 milligrams 2 2 per cubic meter and then did some more 2 3 lower level. 2 4 Q. And what does the term liver 2 5 damage refer to in that same sentence? IGORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 134 WATER PCB-SD0000033426 1 MR. PREUSS: What is the nature of 2 the liver damage? . 3 MR . TALLON: Yes. Whatis the 4 nature of the liver damage? 5 A. Effects of the liver, cloudy, 6 swelling. I didn't go into the medical 7 aspect of exactly what type of microscopic 8 damage was done. 9 Q. Right. The memorandum does not 1 0 specify the types of liver damage. I'm 1 1 wondering now what you were referring to. 1 2 You mentioned cloudy andswelling, was 1 3 there anything else? 14 A. No. There was some disease at the 1 5 cellular level. 1 6 Q. What do you mean by the phrase 1 7 disease at cellular level? 1 8 A. Well, the level -- the liver 1 9 cells at the individual microscopic 2 0 cellular level showed changes in their 2 1 structure due to the effects of the 22 Aroc 1 or . 2 3 Q . Have you ever heard of Aroc]or 2 4 having the effect of causing enzymatic 2 5 changes in liver function? j I I j |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 135 WATER PCB-SD0000033427 1 Yes. 2 Q . What have you heard? 3 A . That it does sometimes . 4 Q. And what enzymatic changes have 5 you heard that Aroclor has caused in liver 6 function? 7 A. Again, it depends on the amount, 8 if they have a serious amount. Remember, 9 we're talking about enzymes. They were not 1 0 running liver enzymes in 1954. 1 1 Q. Right. 1 2 A. So the enzymes that they run now 1 3 in the usual liver panel is GGT, SGOT and 1 4 SGPT . 1 5 Q. And setting aside for a moment the 1 6 amount of Aroclor involved, what are the 1 7 possibilities that you know about with 1 8 respect to the enzymatic changes? 1 9 A. You can't set aside the exposure 2 0 levels . 2 1 Q . What are the possibilities? 2 2 A . 0 f what? 2 3 Q . What changes might occur. 2 4 A. Might occur from nothing to very 2 5 serious changes . |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 136 WATER PCB-SD0000033428 1 Q. What are the very serious ones? 2 A. Swelling of the liver, damage to 3 the liver cells . 4 Q . Anything else? 5 A . No. I can't be sure of what -- I 6 cannot recall the details of the high 7 exposure levels in experimental animals. 8 Obviously, some of the animals died. 9 Q . Was the death related to liver 1 0 dysfunction? 1 1 A. Whether it was solely due to the 1 2 liver or not, I can't say. But I believe 1 3 the liver played a major part in it. 14 Q. You indicated. Doctor, that in 1 5 1954 work wasn't being done on enzymes, 1 6 liver enzymes, is that correct? 1 7 A. That's correct. 1 8 Q. Do you recall when that work first 1 9 began? 2 0 A. I can't be sure of the date. 2 1 Q. Can you approximate it? 2 2 A. Late '60's. 2 3 Q. One other question on this 2 4 document. Doctor. If you look at paragraph 2 5 3 , the document states , "We have, however , |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 13 7 WATER_PCB-SD0000033429 1 been concerned with the level Aroclor 2 during spray painting." Do you see that? 3 A. YeS. 4 Q. What was the concern referenced in 5 that sentence? 6 A. Well, anybody who's seen spray 7 painting knows that they blow a lot of 8 paint out. The possibility of a man spray 9 pain ting, spra y i n g .i n side a booth. h e 1 0 get a pretty s i z a b 1 e expos u r e . 1 1 Q . Why d o n ' t w e mark as E x h i bit 1 2 two page docum e n t b e a ring producti. o n 1 3 numbers Tran 0 1 9 9 2 2 a nd 019923. 1 4 (Transwestern Deposition Exhibit Number 1 5 156 mark'd for identification). 1 6 MR. TALLON: Would you take a 1 7 moment and review that. pleas e ? 1 8 A . Yes, sir, I've read i t . 1 9 Q Can you identi f y the document for 2 0 the record? 2 1 A . It's a document from me to Dr. 2 2 Barrett a t our Englis h subsidiary o n 2 3 Aroclor toxicity. d a t ed September 2 0 , 1 9 5 5. 2 4 Q . And did you author this memo i n 2 5 the discharge of your responsibil i t i e s a s GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 138 WATER PCB-SD0000033430 1 medical dire c t o r o f M o n s a n t o ? 2 A . Yes r I did 3 Q Was i t par t o f your j o b t o do so? 4 A . Yes r i t i s - - it w a s . 5 Q Did y o u a u t h o r this m e m o a t o r 6 about the date that it is dated? 7 A . Yes, s i r . 8 Q And d i d you intend for Dr. Barrett 9 rely on the information in it? 1 0 A . Yes. 1 1 Q Now, I wanted to re fer you to the 1 2 second paragraph on t h e firs t page. Dr. 1 3 Kelly. Did y o u g e t a chance to read that 1 4 already 7 1 5 A . Yes, I d i d . 1 6 Q The para graph state s, among other 1 7 things , "Fran kly , t h e r e was not too great a 1 8 d i f f e r e nee be twee n the two c ompounds." Do 1 9 you see that? 20 A . 21 Q 2 2 made? Yes, sir Was that a correct statement when 2 3 A . Yes, sir . I was re ferring to the 2 4 toxicity . 2 5 Q . The first sentence of the third |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 139 WATER PCB-SD0000033431 1 paragraph on that page Doctor states if I 2 don't know how you would get any partic u 1 a r 3 advantage in doing more work. " Correct 4 A . Yes. 5 Q. Do you rec o1 1 e c t that Dr. Barr e t t 6 was making a sugges tion or recommendati o n 7 that more work of s ome kind be done? 8 A. Yes. What he wanted to do was 9 find out a level th a t would k i 11 the 1 0 animals. I couldn' t figure t h at one o u t , 1 1 because all I wante d to do was find out 1 2 what's a safe level at work, not what's a 1 3 level that would ki 11 people, 1 4 Q. And your r esponse to him was, 1 5 essentially, there is no need for this? 16 A. No. "What are you trying to 1 7 prove?" 1 8 Q. The last paragraph on page 1 1 9 begins with the sentence, "MCC's position 2 0 can be summarized in this fashion," is that 2 1 correct? 2 2 A . That ' s cor r e c t . 2 3 Q And MC C i n that sentence is 2 4 referring t o Mon s a n to Chemical Company? 2 5 A . Yes, s i r . |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 14 0 WATER PCB-SD0000033432 1 Q. The paragraph goes on to state, 2 "We know Aroclors are toxic but the actual 3 limit has not been precisely defined, " Was 4 that a true statement when made? 5 A . Yes. But it would require a 6 little bit of interpretation. The acute 7 limit to what? To inhalationfor people or 8 rats, rabbits? Probably in '55 I could 9 have been a little more explanatory to 1 0 him. But the connotation on the basis of 1 1 the previous correspondence was we've got a 1 2 safe level, why do we need to find out 1 3 anything more 1 4 Q The paragraph goes on to state. 1 5 "It does not make too much difference, it 1 6 seems to m e , because our ma in worry is what 1 7 will happen if an individual develops any 1 8 type of liver disease and gives a history 1 9 of Aroclor exposure." Do you see that? 2 0 A. Yes, sir. 2 1 Q. And was that a main worry? 2 2 A. Well, it was a concern that there 2 3 are a great deal of opinions made not o n 2 4 the basis of scientific evidence. but just 2 5 o f unscienti fic belief. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 14 1 WATER PCB-SD0000033433 1 Q And the paragraph goes on to read 2 "I a m sure that juries would not pay a 3 great deal of attention to MACs . " Right? 4 A. I think that ' s true. 5 Q. And MACs is a n abbreviation for 6 maximum allowable concentration? 7 A . That ' s correct . 8 Q. And does this sentence express a 9 concern that juries would hold Monsanto 1 0 responsible for the situation described in 1 1 that paragraph? 1 2 A. That they might. 1 3 Q. Well, actually, the sentence says 1 4 " I a m sure that juries would not pay a 1 5 great deal of attention." So that was a 1 6 concern of yours, correct? 1 7 A. I was sure they wouldn't pay a 1 8 great deal of attention, whether they would 1 9 hold Monsanto liable or blame the man for 2 0 not paying attention to the warning labels 2 1 on this paint, if we were ever making it a s 2 2 a paint for household use. You realize you 2 3 read just that one paragraph there, if you 2 4 look at the second page -- 2 5 Q. We're going over to that. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST . LOUIS, MIS S 0 U RI 142 WATER PCB-SD0000033434 1 A . Pine. 2 Q. The paragraph on the second page. 3 Doctor, refers to the use of Aroclors, and 4 I believe you're contrasting between the 5 situation of use in a n industrial setting 6 and use in the home, is that what you mean 7 by householders? 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q And y o u indicat e , "If, h o w e v e r , i t 1 0 is d i s t ributed to househ olders w h e re it can 1 1 be used in a 1m o s t any s h ape and f o r m and w e 1 2 are n e v e r able to know h o w much o f the 1 3 c o n c e n t ration they are e x p o s e d t o , we are 1 4 much mo re s t ric t . " Do y o u see t h a t ? 1 5 A . Yes, s i r . 1 6 Q What i s the -- in w h a t s ense were 1 7 you mu c h more s t r i c t ? 1 8 A . Well, we would have -- I think I 1 9 should have s ai d there w e would b e much 2 0 more s t r i c t, be cause we did not - - we were 2 1 not a t that tim e selling a n y t h i n g to the 2 2 h o u s e h o 1 d e r s . But what I meant t o imply 2 3 there was that if we sold a spray paint 2 4 contain i n g A r o c lor into a household and 2 5 said do not b r e a t h e the fumes i n c o n f i n e d (GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS , MISSOURI 14 3 WATER_PCB-SD0000033435 1 spaces , w e had no way of k n o w i n g whether 2 this man m i g h t go i n t o a close t and spend 3 a n hour a nd e a half s p raying t h is paint all 4 over the c 1 o s e t , and he may h a v e troubles 5 from that 6 Q Tr oubles ref erring to what? 7 A . P o s s i b 1 e ill -effects . 8 Q S u c h as live r damage or chi oracne? 9 A . H e ' d never g et chlora cne from one 1 0 dose -- I m e a n, from - - it h as to be 1 1 repeated f o r c h 1 o r a c n e . He'd get eye 1 2 irritatio n , n o s e irr i t a t i o n . 1 3 Q L i v e r damage ? 1 4 A . I t ' s p o s s i b 1 e . But h e may have an 1 5 awful lot o f c o m p 1 a i n t s that w ere -- of 1 6 illnesses that were n o t due -- conceivably 1 7 not due at all to the Aroclors , such as 1 8 diabetes o r t u m o r of the lung. which he 1 9 would allege to the Aroclor. 2 0 Q. Let me show you a document, Dr. 2 1 Kelly, that we'll ask the court reporter to 2 2 mark as 157, and ask you how it relates to 2 3 your memorandum of September 20, 1955? 2 4 (Transwestern Deposition Exhibit Number 2 5 15 7 mark'd for identification) . |G 0 R E REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 144 WATER PCB-SD0000033436 1 A . Yes, sir. 2 Q. And the question. Dr. Kelly, is 3 how does that relate to your memo of 4 September 2. 0 , 1 9 5 5 ? 5 A. I'm trying to find the error in 6 the second paragraph that I referred to in 7 my memorandum of September 22nd. Well, I 8 think the only thing different, it was a n 9 awkward -- the third paragraph in my 1 0 memorandum of September 2Oth was a little 1 1 formal, "Of course, from the standpoint of 1 2 volatility in the case of inhalation or 1 3 absorption from the gut from the point of 1 4 view ingestion are important. Frankly, 1 5 there was not too great a difference 1 6 between the two compounds." But that did 1 7 not refer to absorption, that could refer 1 8 to volatility, could refer to an awful lot 1 9 of things. So I tried to police up my 2 0 language a little bit by saying the 2 1 volatility is important in the case of 2 2 inhalation toxicity, and absorption into 2 3 the intestinal tract is important from the 2 4 standpoint of oral toxicity. I think 2 5 that ' s better phraseology. "Frankly, I IGORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 145 WATER PCB-SD0000033437 1 think there was not a great a e a 1 of 2 difference" . 3 Q . Meaning there is not a great deal 4 of difference in the toxicity between 1254 5 and 1242? 6 A. That's right. I mean, maybe a 7 factor of 2 or something like that. 8 Q. Did you author Exhibit 157, the 9 September 22, 1955 addendum as part of your 1 0 function as medical director of Monsanto? 1 1 A . Yes, I did. 1 2 Q And d id you write it on or about 1 3 S e p t e m b e r 2 2, 1 9 5 5 ? 1 4 A . Yes, I did. 1 5 Q And d id you intend for Dr. Barrett 1 6 to rely on the information therein? 1 7 A . Yes, I did. 1 8 Q Y o u ' v e identified Dr. N e w m a n 1 9 before. Who was Dr. D.V.N. Hardy in 2 0 September 1955? 2 1 A . Hardy was, I think, in technical 2 2 service over there, or in research over 2 3 there. He was not a physician, he was not 2 4 a n industrial hygienist . 2 5 Q. Why don't we have the court |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST . LOUIS, MISSOURI 146 WATER_PCB-SD0000033438 1 j. reporter mark as Exhibit 158 a one page 2 document bearing production number Tran 3 004748. ' 4 (Transwestern Deposition Exhibit Number 5 15 8 mark'd for identification) . 6 MR. TALLON : Take a moment and 7 review that, please. Dr. Kelly. 8 A. Yes, sir, I've read it. 9 Q. Can you identify that document for 1 0 the record? 1 1 A. This j s a letter by Elmer P. 1 2 Wheeler of the medical department to a Dr. 1 3 Johnstone of General Motors Corporation in 1 4 Saginaw, Michigan, dated 11 August '65. 1 5 Q. Have you seen this document before 1 6 today? 1 7 A. I must have. I see I'm carboned 1 8 up on the top and I checked off showing 1 9 that I read it. 2 0 Q. Up in the upper right-hand corner 2 1 of the document there is a grid of sorts, 2 2 is this a stamp affixed to documents within 2 3 your department in 1965? 2 4 A. That's a stamp -- that was the 2 5 way we would put -- our secretary would (GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 14 7 WATER_PCB-SD0000033439 1 put on the carbon t h i s stamp a n d we would 2 - - the author o f. the letter w o u1d show 3 what should* be done. whether i t should just 4 be filed, thrown away or sent to any of 5 these other people to read. And the second 6 column showed after the person had read it 7 and he put it in his own, or either back in 8 the central file. I don't know, someplace. 9 Q. There is some initials in that 1 0 stamped grid including R.E.K.; that's you, 1 1 right? 1 2 A. Yes. 1 3 Q. There is two checkmarks, one 1 4 indicating that you should get, and one 1 5 indicating that you got and read, is that 1 6 correct? 1 7 A . That ' s c o r r e c t . 1 8 Q Did t h i s doc ument come from your 1 9 f i 1 e , so far as you k now? 2 0 A . I haven ' t t h e slightest idea, 2 1 e The o t h e r in itials on the stamp 2 2 g r i d i n c 1 u d e J T G ; is that Mr. Garrett? 2 3 A . That ' s c o r r e c t . 2 4 Q And the b o 11 on one is EPW; is that 2 5 M r . W h e e 1 er ? IGORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 14 8 WATER_PCB-SD0000033440 1 Right . 2 Q. And I a m unable to read the second 3 one; is that just W H ? 4 A. That ' s Dr. Hunt. 5 Q. And MNJ? 6 A. Dr. Johnstone. He was my 7 full-time associate. 8 Q. And RAM? 9 A. A part-timephysician there who 1 0 did mostly medical dispensary work, but we 1 1 clued him on to things that he might be 1 2 interested in. As you notice, he did not 1 3 get a copy of this. 1 4 Q. Actually, you could conclude from 1 5 look!n g at this stamp that only you and Mr. 1 6 Wheeler got copies of this? 1 7 A. That's correct. 1 8 Q. Do you recollect ever instructing 1 9 Mr. Wheeler not to release information 2 0 about the constituent elements of Pydraul 2 1 6 2 5? 2 2 A . No, sir. 23 Q.Do you know if Mr. Wheeler was 2 4 under some constraint not to reveal the 2 5 constituent elements of Monsanto products ? |G 0 R E REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 149 WATER PCB-SD0000033441 1 Some of these are the patents 2 are held both by Monsanto and by other 3 companies, and so we are not able to -- 4 were not able to release the information 5 unless we had the authority of the other 6 patent holder. And I think that was the 7 case of 625. 8 Q. You believe that 625 was a 9 patented compound which was patented with 1 0 another company? 1 1 A. I can't say that positively, but I 1 2 know there were cases where that is the 1 3 reason we were unable to tell the person 1 4 what was in it. 1 5 Q. There were other circumstances 1 6 under which the medical department declined 1 7 to release information about the 1 8 constituent elements of a particular 1 9 product? 2 0 A. Yes. I think. There were some 2 1 products that were company confidential 2 2 there were some products that were company 2 3 confidential. 2 4 Q . What does company confidential 2 5 mean? |G 0 R E REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 1 5 01 WATER PCB-SD0000033442 1 A. You didn't telleverybody, Just 2 like Coca-Cola didn't tell everybody about 3 the ingredients of Coca-Cola . They told 4 them what they were, but they didn't give 5 the details of it or whether -- wha t 6 particularcorrosion inhibitors were i n 7 there, what viscosity -- what exten ders 8 were in there, any oxydants. There are a 9 lot of things in a product. 1 0 Q. Are you indicating that the 1 1 composition of a particular product would 1 2 be a trade secret? 1 3 A . Yes. 1 4 Q. Do you know if that was the case 1 5 with Pydraul 625? 1 6 A. I don't know. 1 7 Q . Doctor, we t o u ched on this 1 8 earlier. but let me ask another ques t i o n in 1 9 light of the language u sed in this 2 0 document. Did you ever hear anyone express 2 1 a preference for using the language 2 2 chlorinated hydrocarbons versus 2 3 polychlorinated biphenyls? 2 4 A. You mean anybody -- 2 5 Q. Anybody a t Monsanto? |G 0 R E REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS , M I SSOURI 151 WATER_PCB-SD0000033443 1 A . No. I n e v e r heard i t . 2 Q Did you e v e r get a d irection from 3 a n t o manage e n t to refer t o 4 polychlorinated biphenyls as chlorinated 5 hydrocarbons? 6 A. No, sir. 7 Q . Did you ever give Mr. Wheeler an 8 instruction or a suggestion to refer to 9 polychlorinated biphenyls as chlorinated 1 0 hydrocarbons ? 1 1 A . No, sir. 1 2 Q. Why don't we mark as Exhibit 159 a 1 3 single page document which, again, bears a 1 4 series of production numbers, including PRR 1 5 004414. ^ 1 6 ( Transwestern Deposition Exhibit Number 1 7 159 mark'd for identification). 1 8 MR. TALLON: Will you review that, 1 9 please? 2 0 A. Yes, sir, I've read it. 2 1 Q. Can you identify the document? 2 2 A. Yes. This is a letter memorandum 2 3 from Mr. Garrett of the medical department 2 4 to Mr. Patrick, the safety director of the 2 5 Krummrich plant, K-r-u-m-m-r-i-c-h, [GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 15 2 WATER_PCB-SD0000033444 1 concerning Aroclors in department 246. 2 e. Do you 3 back in 1 9 5 5 ? 4 A . Yes, I 5 Q And wer 6 Garrett h ad sent 7 November 1 9 5 5 ? 8 A . Yes. 9 Q Had he 1 0 with you? 1 1 A . I doubt 1 2 that. 1 3 Q What do 1 4 existence of t h i 1 5 A . Well, I 16 it. 1 7 Q Do you 1 8 Mr. Garre 11 the 1 9 this memo to Mr. 2 0 A . Yes. T 2 1 they were trying 2 2 eat a t t h e site 2 3 over to the cafeteria we had available for 2 4 them, whether they brown bagged their lunch 2 5 or not. |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 1 53 WATER PCB-SD0000033445 1 Q. There is a reference on the 2 "Subject" line to "Department 246 3 (Aroclors) . *' Was department 2 4 6 the 4 department a t the Krummrich plant which 5 manufactured A r o c 1 o r products? 6 A. Presumably. I can't say that for 7 sure -- but I believe it was. Garrett 8 called it that, so presumably. But I don't 9 know that -- I don't know the number of 1 0 department. 1 1 Q. Did you concur in the opinion that 1 2 eating of lunches should not be allowed in 1 3 the department 246? 1 4 A. I concurred in the final 1 5 decision. I didn't concur in the reasons. 1 6 Q. Why didn't you concur in the 1 7 reasons? 1 8 A . Oh, because I d i d n ' t thin k there 1 9 any possibility of A r o c lor or other 2 0 vapors contaminating the lunch so people 2 1 would get sick if they ate their lunches 2 2 there . 11 was just a matter of general 2 3 cleanliness, where they can wash their 2 4 hands, and it's just not a good idea to eat 2 5 lunch where you're working. And I think GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 15 4 WATER PCB-SD0000033446 1 j: Garrett was sort of talk e d into trying 2 /ij gi, ve th. em more ammu.n.iti. o n to stop the to 3 I habit. * 4 G Are the re a s o n s stated in this 5 memo not accurate? 6 A . Yes, I t h i n k t h e last one, "it 7 would be extremely d i f f i cult on the basis 8 of past 1 iterature r e por ts to counter such 9 claim, " I don't kno w w h a t literature 1 0 reports he's talkin Q a b o ut in this last 1 1 sentence 1 2 Q D o you have a r ecol 1 ection of 1 3 telling M r . Garrett to w ithdraw this 1 4 memorandum as an express ion of the opinion 1 5 of the medical departmen t ? 1 6 A. No. I thought it was a tempest in 1 7 a tea pot, not to worry about it. 1 8 Q. Do you believe that it is 1 9 impossible for a food to become 2 0 contaminated under the c ircumstances 2 1 described in this memora ndum? 2 2 A. There is a diff erence between 2 3 contamination and harm, If you get a drop 2 4 of something on it, it's contaminated. But 2 5 that doesn't mean it's g oing to hurt you. (GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 15 5 WATER_PCB-SD0000033447 1 ! if it makes any difference to you if you 2 j eat the sandwich. I couldn't conceive of 3 any operation where a fellow would be 4 eating his lunch in the department where it 5 was going to cause him any ill-effects . 6 It's just not a good idea. I can't give 7 you any medical reasons, but it just looks a like a good idea not to eat where you're 9 working . 1 0 Q. Do you disagree with the statement 1 1 made in paragraph 1 that Aroclor vapors and 1 2 other process vapors could contaminate the 1 3 lunches? 1 4 A. It depends on how much 1 5 contamination. I mean, contamination is a 1 6 coup 1e molecules of Aroclor vapor settling 1 7 on a sandwich. But I don't think -- that 1 8 is not much contamination, it's 1 9 infinitesimal. So I think he had -- a 2 0 person has to quantify it, because there 2 1 weren't Aroclor vapors and other process 2 2 vapors floating around in that department 2 3 where it would -- where you pick a 2 4 sandwich up and it would be greasy. I 2 5 certainly disagree with that interpretation IGORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 15 6 WATER PCB-SD0000033448 1 ji of that statement. 2 | Q. Were there any Aroclor vapors that 3 you know about in that department in 1955 4 or earlier? 5 A. There might have been times when 6 you'd smell some and a lot of times where 7 you couldn't sme 11 it. But they were never 8 higher than the maximum all o w a b 1 e 9 concentration . 1 0 Q I s it possible that a chronic 1 1 exposure a s a result of eating lunch in the 1 2 department could cause toxicity 7 1 3 A . N o way. 1 4 Q S o that just couldn't happen? 1 5 A . I t couldn't happen. 1 6 Q I n other words, this m emorandum -- 1 7 the r e a s o n s articulated in this memorandum 1 8 are incorrect? 1 9 A. They're incorrect from my point of 2 0 view. Whether Garrett still believes that, 2 1 you have to ask him. 2 2 Q. Was this memorandum countermanded 2 3 by any other memorandum during the period 2 4 of your service as medical director, so far 2 5 a s you know? (GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MI SSOUR I 157 WATER_PCB-SD0000033449 1 Not that I know of. 2 Q . Let me ask the court reporter to 3 mark as Exhibit 160 a two page document 4 bearing production numbers Tran 012123 and 5 224. It's a two page document dated March 6 1 5 , 1 9 6 2. 7 (Transwestern Deposition Exhibit Number 8 160 mark'd for identification). 9 A. Yes, I've read it. 1 0 Q. Can you identify the document for 1 1 the record? 12 A. Yes. This is a document -- a 1 3 letter dated March 15, 1962 from me to Dr. 1 4 Marcus Key of the Uni. ted States Public 1 5 Health Service. 1 6 Q. Do you have a recollection of 1 7 authoring the letter to Dr. Key? 1 8 A. A vague recollection, yes, sir. 1 9 Q. Do you recollect whether you wrote 2 0 this m e morandum in the d i s c h a r g e o f your 2 1 r e s p o n s ibilities as m e d i cal dire c t o r ? 2 2 A . Yes, I did 2 3 Q And did yo u i n t end for D r Key to 2 4 rely o n the in f o r m a t i o n i n it? 2 5 A . Yes, I did |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS , MISSOURI 158 WATER_PCB-SD0000033450 1 Q. And did you write it on or about 2 March 15, 1962? 3 A. Y eh , I did. 4 Q . Do you reco) lect the inquiry to 5 which you were responding in this letter. 6 Dr. Kelly? 7 A. No, sir, I do not. 8 Q. There is a reference in the last 9 paragraph on the first page that states, 1 0 "To our knowledge, there have been only 1 1 three instances where chloracne has 1 2 occurred." Do you see that? 1 3 A. Yes, sir. 1 4 Q. To what does that refer? 1 5 A. That refers to two cases of 1 6 chloracne that were reported in the 1 7 literature and one case of -- and one 1 8 incident of chloracne in a thermometer 1 9 factory where workers, female workers were 2 0 sticking their hands into the liquid 2 1 Aroclor to fill up bellows thermometers. A 2 2 bellows thermometer is like an onion-shaped 2 3 leather pouch. That's an integral part of 2 4 an oven thermometer. And these people had 2 5 chloracne. They told me about their IGORE REPORTING COMPANY ST . LOUIS , MISSOURI 15 9 WATER PCB-SD0000033451 1 | dermatitis , and infer red that it was 2 chloracne . Inasmuch a s I had never seen 3 chloracne from P C B s , I went up to see the 4 place, and I saw that several women were 5 dunking their hands w ith the bellows and 6 filling it up, and sI aid why don't you get 7 some sort of a forcsetop push it down so 8 you don't have to put your hands in it. So 9 they did that and it got well. So that's 1 0 one of them. The oth er was something in 1 1 the literature, a cap acitor plant in 1 2 England. And I don't recall where the 1 3 third one was. Noneof those were our 1 4 workers. And I do no t even know if the 1 5 English plant was -- European operation 1 6 was due to Monsanto P CB, because there were 1 7 five manufacturers in England, whereas we 1 8 were the only one in the United States, we 1 9 might have had 20 percent of the market in 2 0 Europe at the most. 2 1 Q. Monsanto is the only manufacturer 2 2 of PCB-based products in the United States? 2 3 A. Was the only one. 2 4 Q. Was the only one. When you 2 5 referred to the thermometer plant, where GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 16 0 WATER PCB-SD0000033452 1 was that located? 2 A . Someplace i n New Engl and. I don 3 recall . New York, I belie v e . Someplace 4 upstate New York. I ' m not s u r e . 5 Q When you ref erred t o one case. 6 were you referring t o one p e r s on at that 7 factory that had chlo racne o r the factory 8 being the case where many or s o m e had 9 chloracne? 1 0 A. Two or three had it. The other 1 1 case that I said was -- that I referred to 1 2 was, I believe, the one in New Haven, 1 3 Connecticut or someplace in Connecticut 1 4 where a heat transfer unit developed some 1 5 leaks and after a long time they figured 1 6 out that these people had chloracne. They 1 7 had to tell some of the workers that they 1 8 did have chloracne, because they didn't 1 9 know they had any problem at all, so it was 2 0 a pretty mild episode. 2 1 Q. I missed the end of that. Would 2 2 you mind reading it back? 2 3 (The requested portion of the 2 4 record read by the reporter). 2 5 MR. TALLOW: Just referring to the jGORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOUR I 161 WATER PCB-SD0000033453 1 phrase that the court reporter just read 2 back. Dr. Kelly, did you mean that your 3 understandirig is that the workers didn't 4 know what they had and it was chloracne? 5 A . No. What I'm saying is that one 6 or two of the people had chloracne , they 7 didn't know they had it, but they were sent 8 to the occupational group in Connecticut 9 and there they diagnosed it was chloracne, 1 0 so they went back to the plant and said 1 1 let's see allyour workers and they saw a 1 2 couple -- there were only about eight or 1 3 ten workers, and some of them, they said 1 4 "Oh, yes, you've got some chloracne." The 1 5 worker said, "Where? What do you mean?" 1 6 They said, "You got these pimples here." 1 7 He said, "Oh, okay." So it was pretty 1 8 mild. 1 9 Q Did you visit that Connecticut 2 0 plant? 2 1 A. No, I did not. 2 2 Q. You did visit the thermometer 2 3 factory? 2 4 A. That ' s correct . 2 5 Q. And you believe that was someplace |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 162 WATER_PCB-SD0000033454 1 in New York? ? A. I believe it was, yes. 3 Q Do'you r e m e m b e r w h e n Y o u v i s i ted 4 the thermometer f a c t o r y ? 5 A . Soraetim e b e f ore ' 6 2 6 Q And can Y o u be a n Y m ore s pe c i f i c 7 than t h a t ? 8 A . No, I c a n ' t . 9 Q Do you r e c o 1 1 e c t w h e the r t h e 1 0 Conn e c t i cut in ci den t was b e f o r e o r a f t e r 1 1 '62? 1 2 A . It's be e n w r i t t e n u P b y D r . M egg 1 3 and I ' m sure it' s i n that g r o up o f P a p e r s 1 4 I've bee n shown i t i n eve r y d e p o s i t i o n 1 5 The date will be o n i t . 1 6 Q And you r e f e r r e d t 0 a ref e r e n c e 1 7 a c a p a c i tor plan t i n Engl and ? 1 8 A . Well, Euro pe . I ' m n o t s U r e i f i 1 9 was Engl and. 2 0 Q And you s a i d t h a t that w a s 21 to in 1 i t e r a ture What w e r e you 2 2 r e f e rring to? 2 3 A . Yes, it w a s in e i t h e r the B r i tis 2 4 - - I t h ink in the B r i t i s h J o u r n a 1 o f 2 5 Indu s t r i a 1 H y g i e n e , b u t I d o n ' t k n o w the |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 16 3 WATER_PCB-SD0000033455 1 year. 2 Q . Do you believe it was before 1 9 6 2 ? 3 A. I think so. Because I said t h ere 4 were three cases, three instances, and I 5 can't think of what would be the third one 6 if it hadn't been that. 7 Q . Did you ev er get longitudinal 8 information on the conditions at the 9 Connecticut pi ant. that is to say, what 1 0 happened after your initial hearing abo u t 1 1 it? 1 2 A . Yes. They c a 1 1 e d me a m o nth o r so 1 3 later and said we g o t no problem s , t h e 1 4 persons had no o t h e r i 1 1 n esse s a t t h a t 1 5 time, so they were quite well w i t h t h e 1 6 exception of their c h 1 o r a cue o n t h e i r 1 7 forearms , if that's what you m e a n by 1 8 longitudi n a 1 . 1 9 Q. Did you get any information after 2 0 that one month later? 2 1 A . I think that was the one 2 2 follow- up . I never heard from them again 2 3 T h e y s t ill used the stuff. s o I pres u m e 2 4 everything was under control . 2 5 Q. Did you have follow-up with Igor e reporting company st. louis , Missouri 164 WATER PCB-SD0000033456 1 respect to the New York thermometer 2 factory? 3 A. That's what I was talking about. 4 I mean, that follow-up was a month later, 5 approximately . 6 Q. Which was a month later. New York 7 or Connecticut? 8 A. Who? 9 Q. We were talking about two separate 1 0 -- a t least two separate issues. One was 1 1 the New York thermometer factory and one 1 2 was the Connecticut heat transfersystem. 1 3 A. Oh. Well, that -- Dr. Meggs, who 1 4 was a -- who is a very enthusiastic 1 5 occupational physician, headof the 1 6 Department of Occupational Medicine in the 1 7 State of Connecticut was following it up 1 8 very closely, writing papers about it, so I 1 9 relied on him much. As soon as, they got 2 0 rid of the leaks they got rid of the 2 1 chloracne. 2 2 Q. And other than the information 2 3 that you acquired through Dr. Meggs ' work, 2 4 did you get any other information about 2 5 what happened after the initial incident a t |G 0 R E REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 165 WATER PCB-SD0000033457 1 the Connecticut plant? 2 A . No, sir. 3 Q . And did you get any -- you ' v e 4 already described, I b e 1 i e v e , that a month 5 after your visit to the New York 6 thermo meter factory you got a f o 7 report? 8 A. That ' s right . 9 Q. Did you get any further follow-up 1 0 reports? 1 1 A. Not that I recall. 1 2 Q. Do you recall anyfollow-up 1 3 reports with respect to the English or 1 4 European factory that you've described? 1 5 A. Well, I don't know at the time 1 6 whether the follow-up report -- whether 1 7 the report included the follow-up. I don't 1 8 think the report was just okay, we've got 1 9 some chloracne here and somebody sits down 2 0 and writes a paper. I think, as I recall 2 1 the paper, it was -- the paper was written 2 2 sometime after the original episode of the 2 3 chloracne and was able to show that the 2 4 condition had improved following 2 5 ventilation and e t cetera, and that there IGORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 166 WATER_PCB-SD0000033458 1 were no systemic effects from the material . 2 Q Doctor , just one o t h e r q u e s t i o n . 3 Looking a t your 1 e t t e r to D r . Key of March 4 1962, the last se ntence in t h e fir s t 5 paragraph on the first p a g e s ays. among 6 other t h in g s , "We have sum mar ized our 7 available data re lating to po ssibl e skin 8 effects if the A r odors a r e m i s u s e d . " Do 9 you see that? 1 0 A . Yes, sir 1 1 Q And do y ou recoil e c t what you 1 2 meant by the term misused? 1 3 A . Yes. By having - - breathing the 1 4 fumes at elevated temperat u r e s or i n 1 5 confined spaces a nd gettin g p r o 1 o n g e d or 1 6 repeated skin contact, that's what I mean 1 7 by misused. Disregarding our safety 1 8 instructions. 1 9 Q. Why don't we mark as the next 2 0 exhibit, number 161, a one page document 2 1 bearing production number Tran 009115. 2 2 (Transwestern Deposition Exhibit Number 2 3 161 mark'd for identification). 2 4 MR. TALLON : Would you review 2 5 that, please. Dr. Kelly? |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 167 WATER PCB-SD0000033459 1 A . Yes, sir . Y e s , s i r , I ' v e r e a d i 2 Q That d o c u m e n t a PP ear s t o b e a 3 memo r a n d u m flat e d May 2 7 , 1 9 6 4 from E 1 m e r 4 W h e e 1 e r to Fra n k N e m i t s , c o r r e c t ? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. Have you seen that document before 7 today? 8 A. I don't recall seeing it. 9 Q. Do you have a recollection of ever 1 0 having discussed with Mr. Wheeler whether 1 1 the label "Caution, harmful if swallowed. 1 2 Keep out of the reach of children" was a 1 3 sufficient precautionary statement to be 1 4 provided to customers? 1 5 MR . P R E U S S : 0 f 1 2 3 2 ? 1 6 MR . TALLON: 0 f 1 2 3 2. 17 A . This is not our label He was 1 8 suggesting the minimum for the customer to 1 9 put on his label, as I read this. And I 2 0 don't recall talking to Elmer about it. 2 1 But if you read the paragraph before it, it 2 2 says the ultimate responsibility for the 2 3 proper labeling of a formulation remains 2 4 with the customer, and he said the minimum 2 5 precautionary statement, I think, that GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST . LOUIS , MISSOUR I 16 8 WATER PCB-SD0000033460 1 would be necessary wo u 1 d be this. 2 Q. I understand . 3 A. So'without knowing what the 4 customer was using this for, I don't know 5 what it was. Maybe it was, I don't know, a 6 skin lotion or something. I don't know 7 what this fellow was trying to do with it. 8 I have no comment on it. 9 Q. I'm just wondering whether you 1 0 recollect ever having had a discussion with 1 1 Mr. Wheeler about whether the statement on 1 2 the bottom of that page was a sufficient 1 3 precaution even for a customer? 14 MR. PREUSS: Yes or no. 1 5 A. I did not have a discussion with 1 6 Wheeler, no. The answer is no,if that was 1 7 the question. 18 MR. TALLON: That was the 1 9 question . 2 0 A. Yes. No, I did not. 2 1 Q. Doctor, do you think that is a 2 2 sufficient caution? 2 3 A. I'd have to know what the f e11o w 2 4 was using. I have no idea what the 2 5 customer is doing. (GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 16 9 WATER_PCB-SD0000033461 1 Q. But wouldn't you recommend that 2 the same cautions that were included on 3 your PCB-based product be included on a 4 PCB-based product manufactured by a 5 customer of yours? 6 MR. PREUSS : I object, no 7 foundation without knowing what the 8 product's use is. 9 A . I still d o n't know. L a b e 1 i n g 1 0 depends on what the product i s . M a y b e 1 1 there is some so r t of a product that this 1 2 fellow had that the y couldn' t g e t the 1 3 Aroclor out by a ny means pos s i b 1 e . I don 1 4 know. 1 5 Q . Couldn 1 t g e t it out , w h at do you 1 6 mean? 1 7 A . Maybe h e h ad some s o r t of a 1 8 formulation that e n d e d up in a s olid. I 1 9 don't know. So, I just don' t k n o w . 2 0 Q. You just can't comment one way or 2 1 the other? 2 2 A. I can't comment without knowing 2 3 how this Aroclor was used and what was the 2 4 final product. 2 5 Q. Did you ever recommend to |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 17 0 WATER PCB-SD0000033462 1 customers of Monsanto that they include the 2 same labeling that Monsanto used on its 3 PCB-based products? 4 A. No, sir, I did not. 5 (Recess ) . 6 MR. T A L L 0 N : What does the term 7 defatting of the skin mean? 8 A . You lose the fat t h a t is p r 9 in the outer skin layer a n d i t b e c o m 1 0 chapped , in parentheses. o r dry or 1 1 wrinkled. 12 Q. Whydidn't we mark as the next 1 3 exhibit a two page letter dated May 14, 1 4 1970 bearing production numbers Tran 061402 1 5 and 03. 1 6 (Transwestern Deposition Exhibit Number 1 7 162 mark'd for identification). 1 8 MR. TALLON: Would you take a 1 9 moment and review that, please, Dr. Kelly? 2 0 A. Yes. Yes,sir, I've read it. 2 1 Q. Can you identify it? 2 2 A. Yes. This is a letter from me to 2 3 Dr. Drury of the Massachusetts Audubon 2 4 Society, dated May 14, 1970, concerning the 2 5 history of PCB toxicology and ecology GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST . LOUIS, M I S S 0 UR I 171 WATER PCB-SD0000033463 1 j association. I Q. And you were the author of this 2 3 letter? 4 A. Yes, I was. 5 Q. And it is a letter that you wrote 6 in the discharge of your duties a s m e d i cal 7 director? 8 A . Yes. 9 Q And you intended for Dr. Drury t o 1 0 rely on the information i n this letter? 1 1 A . Yes. 1 2 Q You wrote it on or a b o ut the date 1 3 that it is dated? 1 4 A . Yes, sir. 1 5 Q This is actually the f i 1 e copy r 1 6 correct ? 1 7 A . I don't -- yes. But that jus t 1 8 meant t o be filed. I don ' t k n o w w h e t h e r 1 9 - - If orget whether this would be a f i 1 e 2 0 copy or came out of Wheel e r ' s f i 1 e or 2 1 somebody's. I just don't know. 2 2 Q I could be clearer. I mean to say 2 3 this is a carbon copy or Xerox copy of your 2 4 original? 2 5 A . Yes. |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 17 2 WATER_PCB-SD0000033464 1 Q And _you . indeed., sent a letter to 2 Dr. Drury that you signed? 3 A. Yes 4 Q And this is a copy of i t ? 5 A . 0 h , yes. 6 0 One other thing, by the way. Your 7 stamp grid in the upper right-hand corner 8 of the first page of the document has a 9 legend on it we did not mention before, 1 0 which is "Destroy." Do you see that? 1 1 A . Yes , s i r . 1 2 Q. Was there a policy in effect in 1 3 the medical department while you were 1 4 medical director with respect to the 1 5 destruction of documents? 1 6 A. Well, that has been answered in 1 7 two parts. The "Destroy," from the point 1 8 of view of the destructive process 1 9 initiated by the medical department was, 2 0 what they decided was suppose somebody 2 1 wrote in and asked us for money and we 2 2 wrote them back and said sorry, we aren't 2 3 going to do this, and said throw the copy 2 4 away, that would be it a s far a s we're 25 concerned. Monsanto *had what they called a jG 0 R E REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 17 3 WATER PCB-SD0000033465 1 j record retrieval system which was really a 2 record destruction system, which every five 3 years or so'you were supposed to go through 4 your files and discard papers that you 5 didn't need any more. And so we followed 6 that as well as we could . Some things -- 7 toxicological letters , a s a rule, we kept 8 all the time, if they were from customers 9 we kept them all the time. So -- but 1 0 there was a considerable thinning out of 1 1 letters on the part of the company so they 1 2 wouldn't be overwhelmed by paperwork after 1 3 20 years. 1 4 Q. Do you remember the first date 1 5 when the document retrieval program that 1 6 you described went into effect at Monsanto? 1 7 A. It would have to be a wild guess, 1 8 I don't know. I thought it was in the 19 ' 50 ' s . 2 0 Q. You mentioned toxicological 2 1 studies and customer inquiries were saved, 2 2 right? 2 3 A. Yes, sir. 2 4 Q. Were those types of documents 2 5 specifically exempted by the document GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST . LOUIS , MISSOURI 17 4 WATER PCB-SD0000033466 1 retrieval program or was that your 2 decision? 3 A. It* was my decision. I don't think 4 the document retrieval system, iE that's 5 -- I don't know if that ' s the term they 6 used -- but spelled out criteria o E which 7 documents were given the pitch. They just 8 said go through to be sure you get rid o 9 things that you don't need. That's the 1 0 impression I got. 1 1 Q. Was it called a document retention 1 2 system? 1 3 A. It was retention, yes. It really 1 4 was a retention. But the answer was, it 1 5 was -- in a sense it turned out to be 1 6 destruction . 1 7 Q. Do you recall whether that system 1 8 exempted any category o f documents in the 1 9 medical department from destruction? 2 0 A. Well, we exempted on our own 2 1 volition. 2 2 Q. Understood. Now I'm asking about 2 3 whether the program exempted any category 2 4 of documents in the medical department from 2 5 destruction? j |GO R E REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 175 WATER PCB-SD0000033467 1 A. I don't recall whether it did or 2 not. 3 Q. Theletter of May 14, 1970, in the 4 third full paragraph on the first page 5 states, among other things, "None of the 6 European data nor United States data, nor 7 any of the thousands of samples that we 8 have analyzed shows any residues of 9 chlorinated biphenyl compounds in this 1 0 series of less than 5 chlorine atoms per 1 1 b i p h e n y 1 molecule." Do you see t h at? 1 2 A . Yes, sir. 1 3 Q So far as you k now. does A r o c 1 o r 1 4 12 4 2 include at least 5 chlo r i n e a tom s per 1 5 b i p h e n y 1 molecule? 1 6 A . Does it -- 1 7 Q At least 5 chlo r i n e atoms per 1 8 b i p h e n y 1 molecule? 1 9 A . They may have s o m e -- 5 c hi o rin e 2 0 atom s w o u Id be 1254 and 12 4 2 would b e 2 1 probably 4 chlorine atom s, and there may be 2 2 some other ones with thr ee in there. three 2 3 chlorine atoms . But the average i s - - 4 2 2 4 were you asking about? 2 5 Q Yes. |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOUR I 1 76 WATER PCB-SD0000033468 1 A . The average of 4 2 would be four, 2 but that means some were chlorinated to 3 more than four. some tracks , some tracks 4 less than four. The majority of them were 5 to four. Now, I think this i s true in 6 1970, but I don't believe it's true today. 7 Q. You don't believe what is true 8 today? 9 A. A finding of lower chlorinated 1 0 PCBs in the environment. 1 1 Q Meaning that studies s u b s e q u e n t to 1 2 the date of this .letter have s h own res i d u e s 1 3 of chlor inated biphenyl c o m p o u n d s of 1 ess 1 4 than 5 c hlorine atoms per biphe n y 1 mol e c u 1 e 1 5 in the e nvironment? 1 6 A . Yes, I think s o . 1 7 Q Do you believe that t o be as a 1 8 r e s u It o f improved detection t e c h n i q u e s ? 1 9 A . Yes, sir. 2 0 Q So would it be fair t o say t h at at 2 1 the time of your letter the i mproved 2 2 d e t e c t i o n techniques could ha v e detect e d 2 3 1 o w e r chlorinated biphenyls i n the 2 4 e n v i ronment? 2 5 MR . P R E US S : I o b j e c t to the form (GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 177 WATER PCB-SD0000033469 1 of the question. Improved techniques that 2 existed a t that time or exist now? 3 MR'. TALLON: That exist now. 4 A. Yes, I think if they found it now, 5 they could find it then. 6 Q. Turn, please, to the second page 7 of that letter. Dr. Kelly. In the second 8 full paragraph it states, "At any rate, 9 Monsanto is withdrawing PCB from sale for 1 0 those uses where it cannot be controlled." 1 1 Do you see that? 1 2 A. Yes, sir. 1 3 Q. And what did you mean when you 1 4 wrote "uses where it cannot be controlled"? 1 5 A. Controlled to prevent escape into 1 6 the environment. By that I mean open uses, 1 7 plasticizers, paints, coatings, industrial 1 8 fluids. We withdrew almost everything 1 9 except electrical and -- electrical uses. 2 0 Q . When you used the phrase "uses 2 1 where it cannot be controlled," did you are 2 2 intend to exclude closed system uses where 2 3 the possibility of leaks existed? 2 4 A . We did a t first, but then we -- 2 5 the first wave of withdrawal was the |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOUR I 178 WATER PCB-SD0000033470 1 frankly open uses, carbonless carbon paper 2 type, paint, waxes , greases . Then the next 3 one -- and' hydraulic fluids where there 4 is, naturally, the die cast machine, you 5 are losing a certain amount of hydraul .ic 6 fluid every time you push that ram out. 7 The next one was heat transfer uses and 8 compressor uses, because there were losses 9 from t h o s e operations. And so the last one 1 0 was the e lectrical ones, 1 1 Q What accounted for that priority? 1 2 A . Beg pardon? 1 3 Q What accounted for that, if you 1 4 can pri o r i t i z e ? 1 5 A . Well, the fact that there were no 1 6 - - start with the last one first. There 1 7 were n o s ubstitutes for 5. t , the electrical 1 8 uses, a t the time I wrote this. I n fact 1 9 the government told us to keep on 2 0 manufacturing the stuff because the heat 2 1 -- the fire retardancy in transformers was 2 2 a n enormous value in places like subways , 2 3 railroad trains , the White House, Busch 2 4 Stadium, it had to be used until they came 2 5 up with a substitute. The other one was ORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 17 9 WATER PCB-SD0000033471 1 where there were substitutes and there were 2 open uses, we stopped it. The substitutes 3 were not as'good, obviously, otherwise we 4 wouldn't have been selling the stuff 5 before . 6 Q. What about the middle category , 7 which was closed systems , where there was 8 some possibility of leakage? 9 A. We found out that there were leaks 1 0 in those cases and we stopped using it. 1 1 Q. What do you mean, you found out 1 2 that there were leaks in those cases? 1 3 A. Well, there were reports of 1 4 finding PCBs in the outflows of various 1 5 plants, manufacturing plants _ throughout the 1 6 country. We found out that some of the 1 7 stuff came from what might have been 1 8 considered closed use s . 1 9 Q. And when. t o your best 2 0 recollection, did you find that out? 2 1 A . ' 7 0 o r ' 7 1 , I'm not sure of the 2 2 exact date. 2 3 Q . You were aware before '70 or ' 7 1 2 4 of the possibility o f accidental leaks i n 2 5 closed systems, though, correct? |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 180 WATER PCB-SD0000033472 1 A . Oh, yes. 2 Q. Why don't we mark as 163 a two 3 page letter* dated April 13, 1 9 6 7 bearing 4 production numbers Tran 009764 and 765. 5 (Transwestern Deposition Exhibit Number 6 16 3 mark'd for identification) . 7 MR. TALLON: Would you take a 8 moment and review that, please? 9 A. Yes, sir. 1 0 Q. Can you identify the document for 1 1 the record? 1 2 A . Yes. This is a 1 e 11 e r from m e 1 3 a Doctor -- a Mr., I don't k n o w i f it's 1 4 Fain -- Fain, F - a - i - n , d a t e d A p r i 1. 13 , 1 5 1 9 6 7. 1 6 Q. Do you recollect sending this 1 7 letter to Mr. Fain? 1 8 A. No, I do not. 1 9 Q. Do you know whether you wrote it 2 0 in the discharge of your responsibilities 2 1 as medical director? 2 2 A. Yes, I did. 2 3 Q D o you know w h e ther you intended 2 4 for Mr. Fain to rely o n it? , 2 5 A . Yes , sir, I did [GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST . LOUIS , HISSOURI 181 WATER PCB-SD0000033473 1 Q Did you write it on or about April 2 13, 1967? 3 A . YeS, sir. 4 Q . Is this. i n f a c t , a carbon copy or 5 c opy of your 1 e 11 e r to Mr. Fain? 6 A . Yes, it i. s . 7 Q . And you s i g n e d the original? 8 A . Yes. 9 Q There is a BCC on page two of the 1 0 letter to Mr. D.H. Bechtold. 1 1 A. I think he's a marketing -- was 1 2 in marketing in the St. Louis office. 1 3 Q . And there are visible cc's to Mr. 1 4 V.W. Sponseller and Mr. Larry Bradford, do 1 5 you see that? 1 6 A. Yes. 1 7 Q. Who are those gentlemen? 1 8 A. I don't know who they are. 1 9 Q . Do you know. Dr. Kelly, with what 2 0 company or firm Mr. Fain was associated in 2 1 Bellaire, Texas? 2 2 A . No, I don't. 2 3 Q. The letter in paragraph 3 onpage 2 4 1 states, "The fluid may be absorbed 2 5 through the unbroken skin of rabbits in |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 182 WATER PCB-SD0000033474 1 doses resulting in death, but, again , the 1. 2 minimum lethal dose is such that accidental 3 massive skin exposures to man do not 4 present a hazard." 5 A . Yes. 6 Q. What is meant by the terminology 7 accidental massive skin exposures? 8 A. I'm thinking if a pipe broke and a 9 man was walking next to it or was pulling 1 0 on a valve with a monkey wrench and it 1 1 broke off and he got doused with the stuff, 1 2 that would be a massive skin exposure. By 1 3 the time he takes his coveralls and 1 4 underwear off, he's got no problem. 1 5 Q. Did you ever call for a study when 1 6 you were medical director of what level, of 1 7 skin exposure would present a hazard? 1 8 A. No, sir. I mean, we could 1 9 experiment with any animals, but I don't 2 0 think we went to any higher species . 2 1 Q. Did you extrapolate from animal 2 2 studies a s to what level of skin exposure 2 3 would be hazardous to man? 2 4 A. Yes. 2 5 Q. What level? (GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 18 3 WATER PCB-SD0000033475 1 A . You could get pretty much. I 2 mean, we didn't quantify it. Here we had a 3 compound that we had b e e n using for yea 4 we knew there were o c c a s i o n s in our own 5 workers where they d i d get pretty m a s s i 6 exposure and no ill-effects. 7 Q. And what do you mean when you use 8 the term pretty massive exposure in that 9 answer? 1 0 A. Well, we had breaks in our 1 1 production lines, a pump would spring a 1 2 leak i n the seal an d spray t h e m a n d h e ' d 1 3 get d o u s e d , a certa i n p e r c e n t age o f his 1 4 coverall s would get w e t . H e ' d t a k e the m 1 5 off and take a show e r and t h a t w a s i t , n o 1 6 problem . 1 7 Q. Were any of the employee 1 8 situations which you were just describing 1 9 situations where soaking or immersion 2 0 occurred for greater than half an hour? 2 1 A. I don't think so. 2 2 Q. Why don't we mark as Exhibit 164 a 2 3 one page document bearing production number 2 4 Tran 039644. 2 5 (Transwestern Deposition Exhibit Number |G0RE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 18 4 WATER PCB-SD0000033476 1 1 6 4 mark'd for identification). 2 MR. T A L L 0 N : Would you take a 3 moment and review that document, please? 4 A . Yes . Was there a qu e s t i o n ? 5 Q No . Only a request that you read 6 it. 7 A . Yes , I did. 8 Q And do you recognize the letter? 9 A . Yes , I do. 1 0 Q . Can you identify it for the 1 1 record? 1 2 A . 11 ' s a letter from m e to a Dr. 1 3 Robertson o f Ohio State Unive r s i t y 1 4 Hospitals , August 8, 1970. 1 5 Q I s it August 8th orv August 18th? 1 6 A . 18th, sorry. 1 7 Q I s this a carbon copy of a letter 1 8 that you. i n fact, sent to Dr . Robertson? 1 9 A . Yes 2 0 Q Did you write the letter to Dr. 2 1 Robertson i n your capacity as a medical 2 2 director o f Monsanto? 2 3 A . Yes , I did. 2 4 Q . You intended for him to rely on 2 5 the information in the letter? (GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 185 WATER PCB-SD0000033477 1 A . Yes, sir. 2 Q. And you wrote it on or about 3 August 1 8 , 1 9 7 0 ? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. I want to refer you to the third 6 paragraph of the letter, and more 7 particularly to the discussion of Aroclor 8 1242. The last sentence of the paragraph 9 states, "It," and I believe that refers to 1 0 Aroclor 1242, "has a relatively low order 1 1 of acute toxicity, although it does exhibit 1 2 a higher toxicity from a long range point 1 3 ofview." Do you see that? 1 4 A. Yes, sir. 1 5 Q And w h a t is the -- what do you 1 6 mean w h e n you s a id t h a t 12 4 2 has a 1 7 relative 1 y low o r d e r o f acute t o x i city 1 8 although it does e x h i b i t a hi gher t o x i c i ty 1 9 from a 1 o n g rang e p o i n t of v i e w ? 2 0 A . Well, I can' t put it any more 2 1 simply. From an a c u t e point of v i e w it' s 2 2 not very toxic . If y o u i n h a 1 e the mater i a 1 2 3 over a prolonged peri o d of t i me, s i x , e i g h t 2 4 weeks, 1 ike we d id in our exp eriments, y o u 2 5 can get problems . GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 18 6 WATER PCB-SD0000033478 1 ! Q And does long range in that 2 sentence mean six or e i g h t weeks ? 3 A . W ^ 1 1 , that ' s 1 o n g range for 4 inhalation, it's not long range for oral 5 feedings. We did not have the results of 6 our -- there were no results -- no long 7 range oral feedings on the Aroclors in 8 August 1 8 , 1 9 7 0. They were commenced, but 9 we didn't have any results. 1 0 Q. Were were long range toxicity 1 1 studies in existence in August 1970 with 1 2 respect to inhalation? 1 3 A. Just as I said, the six weeks, six 1 4 to seven weeks. That's considered long 1 5 range in inhalation, from an inhalation 1 6 point of view. 1 7 Q Were there long range stud i e s on 1 8 any other exposure? 1 9 A . To what? 2 0 Q To Aroclor 1242. 2 1 A . We might have had 2 0 days on skin 2 2 or s oneth ing like that, but not any longer 2 3 than that 2 4 Q The sentence states it has a 2 5 relatively low order of acute toxicity. i j j i Gore reporting company ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 18 7 WATER PCB-SD0000033479 1 What is the r e1 a t i v e comparison being made 2 in that sentence? 3 A . Gefieral i n d u s t r i a 1 chemicals . 4 Q And what i s the relative 5 comparison being made through the use of 6 the p h r a s e "a higher toxicity"? 7 A. Well, it's higher from -- if you 8 look a t it from acute toxicity it's 9 practically non-toxic, so it's pretty low. 1 0 It's like brake fluid, hydraulic oil or 1 1 something like that. From a long range 1 2 point o f v i e w , it does. from the in h a 1 a t 1 3 point o f v i e w , we do get t o x i city f r o m i 1 4 and we -- at that time w e may have been 1 5 getting our range f i n d i n g t e s ting 1 6 p r e p a r a tory to our two y ear f e e d i n g test 1 7 and t h a t t i me it s h o w e d that repeat e d 1 8 smaller doses over a long period of time, 1 9 90 days or something like that, could cause 2 0 toxicity . So I don't know how to explain 2 1 it any more than that to you. 2 2 Q. To what, relatively speaking, does 2 3 Aroclor 1242 have a higher toxicity from a 2 4 long range point of view, general 2 5 industrial chemicals? |G0RE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 18 8 WATER PCB-SD0000033480 1 A. I would think so. Well, no. I 2 was just saying -- to paraphrase it I can 3 say we got almost really zero toxicity . 4 Not quite zero toxicity from the acute 5 point of view, but we do have some from a 6 long range point of view. So I'm saying 7 higher, certainly, when viewed a s a long 8 term toxicity experiment, it has higher 9 toxicity than when viewed as a low -- from 1 0 an acute point of view. It doesn't mean 1 1 it's higher toxicity than regular run of 1 2 the mill i n dust rial c h e m i c a 1 s w h i c h really 1 3 haven't bee n t e s t e d from the Ion g t e r m 1 4 point of v i e w . So I a m e q u a t i n g o r 1 5 comparing 1 o n g range t o X i c i t y t o a c u t e 1 6 toxicity, two types of testing. Acute 1 7 toxicity, really nothing to worry about; 1 8 almost, very close to zero toxicity. I 1 9 mean practically non-toxic from the 2 0 standpoint of rats . Ounce and a half per 2 1 kilogram, which i s a big d o s e . From the 2 2 long term point o f view it does have some 2 3 toxicity, but that's not unusual in an 2 4 industrial chemical . You're looking for 2 5 some toxicity, we expected toxicity in a n [GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 189 WATER_PCB-SD0000033481 1 industrial chemical . So I'm comparing the 2 same compound in two different tests. 3 Q . When you used the term in your 4 answer just now an ounce and a half per 5 kilogram, are you referring to per kilogram 6 of bo d y weight? 7 A . Yes. 8 Q When you referred in your a n s w e r 9 of a moment ago to a 90 day study o f 1 0 expos u r e to small amounts. to what study 1 1 were you referring? 1 2 A . The Treon study of i n h a 1 a t ion 1 3 That was milligrams per cub i c meter o f air 1 4 Q And was that the Treon study t o 1 5 which you referred earlier today or a 1 6 d i f f e rent one? 1 7 A . The same one. 1 8 Q Do you recall the inquiry t o D r . 1 9 Robertson to which you were respond i n g ? 2 0 A. I sure don't. I don't know what 2 1 he was doing. I don't recall anybody 2 2 talking about placentas and Aroclor in the 2 3 same memorandum. I should have remembered 2 4 it, but I don't. 2 5 Q . Dr . Kelly, during this period of GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 190 WATER PCB-SD0000033482 1 your service as medical director of 2 Monsanto, do you recollect having had 3 direct com m'u nications with persons you 4 believed to be representatives of Texas 5 Eastern Transmission Company? 6 A . I don't recall them. I mean, I 7 may, but I -- you know, in 3 5 years you 8 get an awful lot of inquiries about a lot 9 of chemicals. This may look like a lot of 1 0 PCB, but, really , this i s small in 1 1 comparison to a lot of our compounds. 1 2 Q. What is small i n comparison to a 1 3 lot of our compounds? 1 4 A. The amount you've been showing me 1 5 on -- most of them are questions about -- 1 6 they're not questions, problems with a 1 7 compound, just asking for informationabout 1 8 it. But there are an awful lot of other 1 9 compounds from phosphorus to phthalic 2 0 anhydride to God knows what that we get 2 1 inquiries on. I'd say we would get -- I 2 2 don't know how many a week, but quite a 2 3 few. So what was the question? Sorry. 2 4 MR . PREUSS: That ' s why we want to 2 5 wait for questions. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST . LOUIS, MISSOURI 19 1 WATER PCB-SD0000033483 1 A . Sorry . I talk to too much. ? MR. T A L L 0 N : No, that was fine. 3 (Discussion off the record) . 4 MR. TALLON: Actually, I think the 5 question was, did you recollect having had 6 any direct communications during your 7 career at Monsanto with anyone you believed 8 to be a representative of Texas Eastern 9 Transmission Company? 10 A. I do not, although I may have. I 1 1 do not recall it. 1 2 Q. Do you recollect today having had 1 3 any discussions or communications with 1 4 persons you believe to be representatives 1 5 of the Transwestern Pipeline Company? 1 6 A . No, sir. 1 7 Q Have you ever heard of the Texas 1 8 Eastern Transmission Company before this 1 9 moment? 2 0 A . I don't believe I di d . 2 1 Q Have you ever heard of the 2 2 Transwestern Pipeline Company before this 2 3 moment? 2 4 A. Before this moment? I mean, they 2 5 talked to -- this was the case they told |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 19 2 WATER PCB-SD0000033484 ' 1 ; me about yesterday. I heard yesterday 2 about it. 3 Q . Right . 4 A . Not before yesterday . 5 Q Excluding y o u r c o n v e r s a t ions with 6 Mr. P r e u s s, do you re col 1e c t h a v i n g heard 7 anything about Texas Eastern Tr a n smission 8 Company? 9 A . No, sir. 1 0 Q Or Transwest ern Pipeli n e Company? 1 1 A . No, sir. 1 2 Q All right. Why don't I show you a 1 3 document which bears production n umber 1 4 TW2-20035 00. And for the recor d. the 1 5 document is captioned "Transcri P t ion of 1 6 Bates numbered document 004013879". 1 7 ( Transwestern Deposition Exhibit Number 1 8 165 mark'd for identification). 1 9 A. Yes, sir, I've read it. 2 0 Q. Does reading the document which we 2 1 have now marked a s Exhibit 165 refresh your 2 2 recollection with respect to any 2 3 communication with persons you believe to 2 4 be representatives of Texas Eastern 2 5 Transmission Company? . II j IGORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 19 3 WATER PCB-SD0000033485 1 A Well this document doesn't refer 2 to who Edmondson is or who Fletcher is. 3 Q. I know. 4 A. 11 really doesn't refresh me a t 5 all. 6 Q Does the name O.M Fletcher mean 7 anything to you? 8 A . No, sir. 9 Q Does the name E.E Edmondson mean 1 0 anything to you? 1 1 A . No. There may be more in the 1 2 file. 1 3 Q. Why don't you set that aside. Dr. 1 4 Kelly. Why don't we mark as Exhibit 166 a 1 5 one page document bearing production number 1 6 TW2-2004803, which appears to be a letter 1 7 on the stationery of Monsanto Chemical 1 8 Company, dated August 18, 1958. 1 9 (Transwestern Deposition Exhibit Number 2 0 166 mark'd for identification). 2 1 A. Yes, sir, I've read it. 2 2 Q. Do you recognize it? 2 3 A . I recognize what it is, yes, but 2 4 -- I mean, I don't recall it, but I 2 5 recognize it. |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 19 4 WATER PCB-SD0000033486 1 Q . What is it? 2 A. It's a letter from me to Mr. 3 Edmondson of the Texas Eastern Transmission 4 Corporation, dated August 1 8 , 1 9 5 8 , 5 concerning fluid 0 S- 8 1 . 6 Q. Do you have any recollection of 7 having written the letter to Mr. Edmondson 8 of Texas Eastern Transmission Corporation? 9 A. No, I don't. 1 0 Q. Do you have any recollection of 1 1 h a v i n g w r i 11 e n t o any person about the use 1 2 o f fluid 0 S - 8 1 a s an inside lubricant for a 1 3 gas compressor? 1 4 A. No, sir. 1 5 Q. Do you know whether ^OS-81 was ever 1 6 used as an inside lubricant for a gas 1 7 compressor? 1 8 A. From this memorandum it looks like 1 9 somebody told me it was. Whether it was 2 0 -- well, that's the only -- I know 2 1 nothing about pipelines, so I do not know 2 2 whether 0 S- 81 was used. I have no 2 3 knowledge as to how -- whether it was used 2 4 as a gas compressor, no, sir, I don't. 2 5 (Discussion off the record). (GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 195 WATER_PCB-SD0000033487 1 MR. T A L L 0 N : Was there something 2 about this document that you associated 3 with pipelines? 4 A. Well, I figured that Texas Eastern 5 transmission must have been using a 6 pipeline. 7 Q . And why did you figure that? 8 A . Well, I think that's the way -- 9 if you got a gas compressor and you got a 1 0 Transmission company, they aren't going to 1 1 send the stuff in tank cars, they use a 1 2 pipeline. 1 3 Q. So you're aware that Texas Eastern 1 4 Transmission Company is a gas company? 15 A. No. But I don't know -- I 1 6 thought a gas compressor was something that 1 7 compressed the gas. 18 Q. Anddo you recollect that as a 1 9 result of having read this letter, or are 2 0 you just making that statement as a 2 1 statement of general, knowledge? 2 2 A . You mean -- what was the -- make 2 3 what statement? General knowledge? 2 4 Q . You said a gas compressor was 2 5 something used to compress gas. j i Ii |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 196 WATER PCB-SD0000033488 1 Unless it has a different meaning 2 than the two words would imply, I think 3 that's what* it does. 4 Q . I was just wondering. Dr. Kelly, 5 because there is nothing in the letter 6 itself whichtalks about a pipe! ine or the 7 use of this gas compressor to compress 8 gas. 9 A. Except that's the name of the 1 0 thing. We got an inside lubricant. 1 1 Q. Right. 1 2 A. Which goes inside something. 1 3 Q. Right. 1 4 A. And something owned, presumably of 1 5 interest to Texas Eastern Transmission 1 6 Corporation. And I think from general 1 7 knowledge I know that transmission 1 8 companies who have a gas compressor have 1 9 gas ins id e them -- the pi pel ine. That ' s 2 0 the bus i n e s s of transmissi o n . But n o b o dy 2 1 told m e Texas Eastern tran s m i s s i o n is a 2 2 pipeline company. 2 3 Q. Do youhave a recollection of Mr. 2 4 Edmondson or any other person telling you 2 5 about occasional leaks occurring with jGO R E REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 19 7 WATER PCB-SD0000033489 1 |i respect to gas compressor operations? 2 A . No, sir. Unless there were 3 telephone calls , but I don't recall them a t 4 all. And if these are the only two bits of 5 communication, I would just have to surmise 6 that there could be leaks . 7 Q. Why would you surmise that there 8 would be leaks? 9 A. Well, he's talking about, in this 1 0 letter of April 13th, that the people -- 1 1 there is some concern about is it a health 1 2 and safety standpoint. His last question 1 3 refers to the repair of it. Another point 1 4 in question, repair of the compressers. So 1 5 someplace along the line I inferred that he 1 6 was having possibilities of exposure during 1 7 the normal operation of these things. 1 8 That's the only basis I can think of at the 1 9 present time as to why I answered this 2 0 question that way. He was inquiring about 2 1 the health and safety, and I presume that 2 2 there had to be leaks. 2 3 Q. Do you have an understanding 2 4 whether Exhibit 166 is your response to the 2 5 preceding Exhibit, 165? |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 1 98 WATER PCB-SD0000033490 1 A . Yes. Because right on the front I 2 I! said "Thank you for your letter of August 3 13th," which is Exhibit 165. 4 Q . Let me show you another document 5 which is -- actually, we'll use this copy, 6 it's a three page document comprising a 7 retyped copy of document Bates numbered 8 TW2-2006486, a notarial statement and a 9 photocopy of TW2-2006486. 1 0 (Transwestern Deposition Exhibit Number 1 1 167 mark'd for identification). 1 2 MR. TALLON: Doctor, I'll state 1 3 for the record that the first page of the 1 4 three page exhibit I've handed you is a 1 5 recently typed version of the last page of 1 6 the exhibit, the last page of the exhibit 1 7 being somewhat difficult to read. 1 8 A . Yes, sir. 1 9 Q Have you rea d the document? 2 0 A . Yes, I have. 2 1 Q And have you looked at the third 2 2 page of the exhibit? 2 3 A . Yes. 11 looks pretty close . I 2 4 mean, it looks like a good translation, or 2 5 a good transcription. |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 1 99 WATER PCB-SD0000033491 1 Q. Do you recall having sent the 2 letter which comprises the third page of 3 the exhibit'and is retyped on the first 4 page? 5 A. No, I don't. But this certainly 6 clarifies my answer to a couple of your 7 questions . 8 Q I n what way doe s i t c lari f y 7 9 A . I must have talked to D a v i s about 1 0 this, a n d s aid, "What is this T e x a s Eastern 1 1 Transmi s s i o n Company, an d what are they 1 2 doing?" S o he probably told me it ' s a 1 3 p i p e 1 i n e c o mpany. So I think that o n the 1 4 basis - - I think I must have talk e d to him 1 5 in the f i v e days between the vf i r s t t w o 1 6 letters . 1 7 Q. And who is the Mr. Davis referred 1 8 to? 1 9 A. He's in the marketing group of 2 0 Monsanto . 2 1 Q. Do you recall having any 2 2 communications with Mr. Davis? 2 3 A. You mean oral or written? 2 4 Q . Either. 2 5 A. I don't recall them, no. But it |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 200 WATER PCB-SD0000033492 1 seems obvious that if he reported to me 2 there was some -- if I said he reported to 3 me that Texas Eastern people had burning 4 skin irritation, there was a communication 5 there . 6 Q. Do you recollect, by the way. 7 Doctor, if Mr. Davis or anyone else 8 reported to you that in many instances of 9 working around compressers the use of 1 0 gloves is not feasible? 1 1 A . I don't recall that. 1 2 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to 1 3 where that information derives from? 1 4 A. Well, it must have been from 1 5 Davis, because I haven't -- I mean, I see 1 6 down here I said that, so I got it from 1 7 somebody. I didn't -- I've never seen a 1 8 pipeline compressor. 1 9 Q. A what? 2 0 A. A pipeline compressor. 2 1 Q. Do you recollect. Dr. Kelly -- 2 2 well, let me point out something to you. 2 3 In the first paragraph of Exhibit 167 there 2 4 is a request that you make, stating "Our 2 5 Mr. Davis has reported to me that some of [GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 20 1 WATER PCB-SD0000033493 1 your m e n have exhibited burning and skin 2 irritation," do you see that? 3 A . Yes. 4 Q . And it goes on to say, " I would 5 appreciate it if you could have your safety 6 or medical department furnish me further 7 details"? 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. Do you recollect whether you were 1 0 furnished with further details of any kind? 1 1 A. No, sir, I don't recollect that at 1 2 all. 1 3 Q. You don't remember one way or the 1 4 other? 1 5 A. Either way. 1 6 Q Okay. And understa nding you have 1 7 limited recollection of this document, are 1 8 you able to say whether the letter is one 1 9 that you wrote in the discharge of your 2 0 duties as medical director at Monsanto? 2 1 A. Yes, I think so. 2 2 Q And unders t a n din g that. do you 2 3 believe that you intended for Mr., F1 etch 2 4 to rely on the information in this 2 5 document? |G 0 R E REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 202 WATER PCB-SD0000033494 1 A. Yes, I did. 2 Q. And do you believe that you wrote 3 it on or about the date that it is datedl1 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. There is a reference to -- in the 6 second paragraph of Exhibit 167 to the fact 7 that skin c o n t a c t with the material should 8 not cause any more of a reaction than if 9 one were exposed to a paint remover. Do 1 0 you see that? 1 1 A. Yes, sir. 1 2 Q. Do you have any knowledge today of 1 3 what kind of paint remover you're referring 1 4 to in this passage? 1 5 A. Any kind. I mean, this stuff will 1 6 take paint off, paint remover takes paint 1 7 off, and this will cause defatting of the 1 8 skin. And any pai. nt -- I was referring to 1 9 an organic paint remover, not a water base 2 0 paint remover, which I understand there 2 1 have been some in the last two or three 2 2 years, for latex paints and other paints. 2 3 But this refers to a n organic paint 2 4 remover, whether it's a hydrocarbon or 2 5 acetone or something else. IGORE REPORTING COMPANY ST . LOUIS , MISSOURI 203 WATER PCB-SD0000033495 1 Q I n your a n s w e r of a moment ago 2 when you said this stuff take s off paint 3 were you referring to 0 S -81? 4 A . Yes. 5 Q . Were you referring to Aroclors 6 more generally? 7 A. Yes, liquid Aroclors. 8 (Recess) . 9 MR. TALLON: Let me show you. Dr. 1 0 Kelly, a document which is Bates stamped 1 1 TW2-2007037 through 043, and I would ask 1 2 you to disregard the first page, or read it 1 3 if you like, I ' m mostly inter e s t e d in the 1 4 a 11 a c h m e n t to it. 1 5 (Trans western Depositio n E x h ibit Number 1 6 16 8 mark'd for identi f i c a t ion). 1 7 A . Yes, s ir, I've read i t . 1 8 Q Do you recollec t h a v i n g seen the 1 9 0 S - 8 1 t echnical bulletin w h i c h compris e s 2 0 most of Exhibit 16 8? 2 1 A . I have no s p e ci f i c r ecollecti o n 2 2 seeing it. I k now I've seen i t . 2 3 Q And do you know unde r what 2 4 circumstances you saw it? 2 5 A. Probably when it first came out. |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS , MISSOURI 204 WATER PCB-SD0000033496 1 when they asked me about the t o x i city and 2 safe handling d a t a on the bull e t i n . 3 Q C o*u 1 d you turn to the 1 a s t page. 4 pleas e ? 5 A . Yes, s i r . 6 Q That ' s a page caption e d "Toxicity 7 and s a f e h a n d 1 i ng information" ? 8 A . Yes, s i r . 9 Q Do you recollect havi n g drafted 1 0 any of the language which appears there? 1 1 A. I don't recollect it, but I'm sure 1 2 I have. I'm sure I did it. 1 3 Q. Do you recommend or do you 1 4 recollect recommending for inclusion in the 1 5 -- in this portion of the technical 1 6 bulletin any information about systemic 1 7 toxic effects of exposure to OS-81? 1 8 A. No, sir, I don't see that. But I 1 9 do see the last paragraph, "If, however, 2 0 the material is used at elevated 2 1 temperatures, repeated or continuous 2 2 breathing of fumes must be avoided by 2 3 workmen" . 2 4 Q. I'm sorry? 2 5 A. "Must be avoided by workmen . " I |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 205 WATER PCB-SD0000033497 1 mean, the inference there is if you don't 2 avoid it you're going to have problems. 3 But I don't; see anything specific about 4 systemic illness . ' 5 Q. Do you recollect having discussed 6 the information appearing on the last page 7 of this technical bulletin with Roger 8 Hatton? 9 A. No, sir, I don't recall. 1 0 Q. Do you know who Roger Hatton was? 1 1 A. Yes. 1 2 Q . 0 .r is. 1 3 A. I thought he was a research and 1 4 development man in industrial fluids. 1 5 Q. Do you have a recollection of 1 6 discussing the use of OS-81 by any customer 1 7 with Roger Hatton? 1 8 A . No , s i r , I don 't recall it. 1 9 Q I want t o ask the court reporter 2 0 to mark a s E x h i bit 16 9 a multi-page 2 1 document titled "MCS-153 Transfer to 2 2 Marketing and Recommended Product 2 3 Strategy" . 2 4 (Transwestern Deposition Exhibit Number 2 5 169 mark'd for identification). GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 206 WATER PCB-SD0000033498 1 MR. TALLON: Would you take a 2 moment and review that, please? 3 A . A moment? 4 Q Well, such time as you need. But 5 I'll tell you I want to ask you initially 6 whether you have seen this document earlier 7 than today. 8 A. I'm skipping all the part about 9 marketing and things like that. 1 0 Q. Yes. 1 1 A. I've never seen this before, that 1 2 I recall. 1 3 Q You don't recollect ever havin g 1 4 discuss t h i s document with Roger Hatt on? 1 5 A . N o , sir. 1 6 Q . Does reviewing this document i n 1 7 any way refresh your recollection as to the 1 8 use of OS-81 by Texas Eastern Transmiss ion 1 9 Corp.? 2 0 A . No, sir. 2 1 Q . Does the review of this document 2 2 in any way refresh your recollection a s to 2 3 discussions you may have held with Roger 2 4 Hatton concerning Texas Eastern 2 5 Transmission Corp. ? |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 207 WATER PCB-SD0000033499 .1 A . No, sir. 2 Q I take it. Dr. Kelly, when I ask 3 you about Tfexas E a s tern Transmission C o r p 4 you basic ally draw a blank, is that it? 5 A. That's yes. 6 Q. You mentioned a few moments ago 7 something about general knowledge about gas 8 compressers, do you have any understanding 9 today whether a gas compressor is a closed 1 0 system or open system? 11 A. No, I don't. I didn't think I 1 2 said I knew much about a gas compressor, I 1 3 think I said I don't know anything about 1 4 them. I mentioned -- I said it was an 1 5 internal compressor, so I figured it was 1 6 inside something. Rut I don't know 1 7 anything about it. 1 8 Q So you don't know whether or not 1 9 gas com pressor is an open system or c 1 o s e d 2 0 system? 2 1 A . Well, I t h i n k common know ledge o f 2 2 anythin g would say t h at if you ' v e got a 2 3 compres s or, if you' r e compress i n g 2 4 somethi n g , .it's got t o be c 1 o s e d , o t h e r w i s e 2 5 there i s no compres s i o n . |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 208 WATER PCB-SD0000033500 1 Q And do .you know whether or not 2 such a compressor would be subject to 3 leaks? ' 4 A, Well, I think almost all 5 compressers can leak. I've gone through 6 this, but to answer your question, i t does 7 not -- 8 Q. Refresh your recollection? 9 A. No, sir. 1 0 Q. I'm going to ask the court 1 1 reporter to mark as the next document a 1 2 single page bearingproduction number Tran 1 3 001382, and the next one we're going to 1 4 mark is Tran 001383. 1 5 (Transwestern Deposition Exhibit Number 1 6 170 & 171 mark'd for identification). 1 7 MR. TALLON: Looking first. Dr. 1 8 Kelly, at Exhibit 170, I'd ask you if 1 9 you've ever seen that label before, if 2 0 that ' s what it is? 2 1 A. I feel pretty sure I have, but I 2 2 don't have any specific recol lection of 2 3 seeing it. 2 4 Q . Do you have any particular 2 5 recollection of having recommended IGORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 209 WATER PCB-SD0000033501 1 additions of language to this label? 2 A . No specific recollection. But I 3 do know that it was q uite a n established 4 procedure that the me dical department would 5 approve this caution statement. 6 Q Can you tell , Dr. Kelly, from the 7 language which appear s fol lowing the word 8 "Caution " the approxi mate date of thi. s 9 document? 1 0 A . No, I can't. No. It's something 1 1 before 1972, because we had environmental 1 2 labels on them at tha t time. 1 3 Q Can you exam ine for a moment the 1 4 next e x h ibit, which i s a label for Turbi. nol 1 5 153, formerly MCS-153 1 6 A . Is there a q uestion? 1 7 Q Yes. Could you examine it, 1 8 please? 1 9 A . Yes, I could 2 0 Q Have you see n this before? 2 1 A . I was w a i tin g for a question, 2 2 Q I thought y o u were still examining 23 it . 2 4 A . No. I said I did examine it. 2 5 Q I didn't hea r you. Sorry. I was i |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 2 10 WATER PCB-SD0000033502 1 entranced by the document. Do you 2 recollect seeing this particular label 3 re? 4 A . No, sir , Ido not. 5 Q Do you r e c a 1 1 having recommended 6 any additions of language to this document? 7 A. Do I recall recommending any 8 addition? 9 Q. Of language to the -- to this 1 0 document? 1 1 A. Addition of language to this 1 2 label? 1 3 Q . Yes. 1 4 A. I do not recall that. 1 5 Q. Are you able to ascertain from a 1 6 review of the document the approximate date 1 7 of the label? 1 8 A . No, sir. 1 9 Q. Do you believe these two exhibits, 2 0 by the way, to be labels, photocopies of 2 1 labels? 2 2 A. I would certainly think they are. 2 3 Q. Is the language -- well, the 2 4 language on the exhibit for MCS-3 53 2 5 following the word "Caution" appears to be |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 21 1 WATER PCB-SD0000033503 1 the same as the language following the word 2 "Caution" on the label for Turbinol 153, 3 correct? 4 A . Yes, sir. 5 Q . Does that help you a t all in 6 dating it? 7 A . No. Because I don' t ever remember 8 seeing a Turbinol label b e f o r e . And I 9 cannot make out these c odes a t the bottom. 1 0 That i s fraught with errors, you might 1 1 think 153 means January o f ' 5 3 and 253 1 2 means February of '53, but s o m e labels I've 1 3 seen. that doesn't follow at all. 1 4 Q. But to just touch on one other 1 5 point, you indicated in your testimony of a 1 6 moment ago that given the language in the 1 7 label, for MCS-153 you thought it predated 18 1972? 1 9 A. That's correct. 2 0 Q. Based on that same analysis, do 2 1 you believe that the label for Turbinol 153 2 2 is dated before 1972? 2 3 A. I would think so, because we 2 4 generally put the environmental label on 2 5 new shipments, whether it was shipments of GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 2 12 WATER_PCB-SD0000033504 1 !j Turbinol or MCS, after 1972. I don't 2 know. But that was about the time we 3 stopped industrial fluids, the manufacture 4 of industrial fluids. 5 Q . What was about the time that you 6 stopped manufacturing? 7 A. The industrial fluids. 8 Q . What was the time? 9 A. It was around '72. '71, '12. 1 0 Q. Do you know whether or not 1 1 production of Turbinol 153 terminated? 1 2 A. No, sir, I don't. 1 3 Q. Let's mark as the next document a 1 4 document bearing production number 1 5 TW2-2006525 through 6528, which is a letter 1 6 on Monsanto Chemical Company stationery, 1 7 dated September 25, 1961. 1 8 ( Transwestern Deposition Exhibit Number 1 9 172 mark'd for identification). 2 0 MR. TALLON: Would you please 2 1 review that? 2 2 A. Yes, I will. Yes, sir, I've read 23 it . 2 4 Q . Do you recognize that document? 2 5 A . No, sir. I don't think I've ever IGORE REPORTI NG COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 2 13 WATER PCB-SD0000033505 1 seen it before. 2 Q. Would you turn to the last page of 3 the document, please? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. Do you know. Dr. Kelly, whether 6 you approved the language appearing under 7 paragraph numbered 3, starting with "This 8 item consists"? 9 A. I don't know if I did. I may and 1 0 I may not have, I don't know. 1 1 Q. Do you recall. Dr. Kelly, ever 1 2 communicating with any representative of 1 3 the Cooper Bessemer Corporation about 1 4 compressor operations? 1 5 A . Cooper who? 1 6 Q Cooper Bessemer. 1 7 A . No, sir, I do not. 1 8 Q Let's mark as the next exhibit 1 9 page memorandum bearing production 2 0 numbers Tran 002552 and 2553. 2 1 (Transwestern Deposition Exhibit Number 2 2 17 3 mark ' d for identification). 2 3 A . Yes, sir. I've read it. 2 4 Q Have you seen that document 2 5 before? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 214 WATER PCB-SD0000033506 A . I don't recall having seen it. 2 Q Do you recoil e c t whether M r . 3 a r r e t t ever told you that he was h o 1 d i 4 e q u e s t to discuss the t o X i c i ty of T u r b 5 53 with Texas Eastern Gas Transmi s s i o n 6 orp . ? 7 A. No, sir, I don'trecall that. 8 Q. Do you recollect that Mr. Garrett 9 ever told you that he was holding a request 1 0 to discuss the toxicity of Turbinol 153 1 1 without regard to with whom the discussion 1 2 was to be held? 1 3 A, No, sir. 1 4 Q. Do you recollect ever discussing 1 5 the toxicity of Turbinol 153 _ w i t h Mr. 1 6 Garrett? 17 A. I don't recall. I don't recall 1 8 it. I don't know what the toxicity refers 1 9 to. I don't know if he's referring to 2 0 toxicity to fish or toxicity to humans or 2 1 toxicity to animals, because he's talking 2 2 about fish in the first paragraph and he 2 3 goes down in the third paragraph and he 2 4 talks about toxicity, so I don't know 2 5 whether he's talking about fish or what. | j l ; ORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 21 5 WATER_PCB-SD0000033507 1 The answer is no. 2 Q. Okay. Do you remember having a 3 conversatioh with Mr. Garrett where the 4 subject was Turbinol 153? 5 A. No, sir, I don't. 6 Q. Do you remember having a 7 conversation with anybody where the subject 8 was Turbinol 153? 9 A. No. I don't recall much about 1 0 Turbinol. I recall practical ly noth! n g 1 1 about Turbinol 153. After all, this was a 1 2 small amount to one company. We're talking 1 3 about fifty thousand dollars in sales to 1 4 one company, so I don't recall it. 1 5 Q. What's the basis of the statement 1 6 that we're discussing fifty thousand 1 7 dollars in sales? 1 8 A. Well, it was in that big 1 9 memorandum from Hatton transferring it to 2 0 market . 2 1 Q . Is it your understanding that 2 2 fifty thousand dollars in sales would 2 3 represent a fa i r 1 y small port i on of the 2 4 overall i n c o m e o f that department? 2 5 A . N o . It's important, but -- I GORE R EPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS , MISSOURI 2] 6 WATER PCB-SD0000033508 1 mean, any sales is important, but this is 2 to one company. and I don t recall a n awful 3 lot of conversat ion about Turbinol . I 4 don't recall any , in fact 5 Q . This next document should b e 6 brief. Could you mark a two page document 7 bearing p r o d u c tion numbers Tran 003826 and 8 3827 as E x h i b i t 17 4. 9 (Trans western Deposition Exhibit Number 1 0 1 7 4 mark'd for identification). 1 1 A . Yes, sir, I've read it. 1 2 Q Have you seen that docume nt before 1 3 today? 1 4 A . No, s ir . Not that I can recall . 1 5 Q . Do you recollect having had a 1 6 discussion with anyone where the subjects 1 7 discussed in this document were a topic of 1 8 conversat ion? 1 9 A . There is no date on this document 2 0 there is no -- nothing that shows who 2 1 wrote it or to whom it went. 2 2 Q Right. 23 A . So, no , I don't. 2 4 Q Do you recognize the handwritten 2 5 notation a t the top of the first page as |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 21 7 WATER PCB-SD0000033509 1 being someone's handwriting? 2 A. Someone's, yes, but I don't 3 recognize it. 4 Q. Okay. Do you have any knowledge 5 or information as to the source of this 6 document within Monsanto? 7 A. No, I have no idea about it. 8 Q. Let's look a t Exhibit 175, which 9 will be a two page letter dated January 7, 1 0 1964, bearing production numbers Tran 1 1 012120 and 012121. ' 1 2 (Transwestern Deposition Exhibit Number 1 3 175 mark'd for identification). 1 4 MR. TALLON: Please review that. 1 5 A. Yes, I've read it. 1 6 Q. Can you i. dentify it? 1 7 A. This is a letter from me to Mr. 1 8 Spore of Shenango Ceramics, dated January 1 9 7 , 1 9 6 4. 2 0 Q. This is a carbon copy of a letter 2 1 that you actually sent to Mr. Spore? 2 2 A . Yes, sir. 2 3 Q . Did you write this letter in your 2 4 capacity a s medical director of Monsanto? 2 5 A. Yes, I did. IGORE REPORTING COMPANY ST . LOUIS , MISSOURI 2 18 WATER PCB-SD0000033510 1 Q Did you i n t e n d for Mr. Spore to 2 rely on the info r m a t i o n in it? 3 A . Yes, I did. 4 Q Did you writ e i t on or about 5 January 7 , 1 9 6 4 ? 6 A . Yes, si r . 7 Q I refer You, D r . Kelly, to the 8 third paragraph on the first page. The 9 first sentence states, "The fact remains 1 0 that I would not recommend the use of 1 1 Aroclor 1262 at temperatures above 150 to 1 2 160 degrees fahrenheit without the 1 3 provision of exhaust ventilation to remove 1 4 any vapors that might be released." Do you 1 5 see that? 1 6 A . Yes, sir. 1 7 Q. What is the reason. Dr. Kelly, 1 8 that you use the range 150 to 160 degrees 1 9 fahrenheit in that explanation to Mr. 2 0 Spore? 2 1 A. He might have asked me. I don't 2 2 really know why he asked that. 2 3 Q . Did you ever recommend against 2 4 using Aroclor 1 2 6 2 a t temperatures above 2 5 160 degrees fahrenheit in any other |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 219 WATER PCB-SD0000033511 1 context? 2 A. Recommend against using it? 3 Q . Yes. 4 A. I don't know if I did or not. 5 Q. Do you have any present 6 understanding a s to the signi ficance of the 7 degree range 150 degrees to 160 degrees 8 fahrenheit as used in this letter? 9 A. No, sir, I don't. 1 0 Q. Was Aroclor 1262 more volatile or 1 1 less volatile than Aroclor 1242? 1 2 A. Less volatile. 1 3 Q. Are you familiar. Dr. Kelly, with 1 4 work done in Sweden by a Sorhan Jenssen? 1 5 A . Yes , I am . __ 1 6 Q. Can you describe the circumstances 1 7 under which you first became familiar with 1 8 thatwork? 1 9 A. Yes. Something appeared in a 2 0 Swedish newspaper in 1966 or '67, I'm not 2 1 exactly sure of the date, and eventually it 2 2 showed up in the United Kingdom's 2 3 newspapers, and people from Dr. Jenssen 2 4 found what that he believed to be PCB was 2 5 present in the feathers of birds, and some |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS , MISSOURI 220 WATER PCB-SD0000033512 1 people -- I mean, this information finally 2 got to our research group. I don't know if 3 he found thatin the feathers of the birds 4 or he found it in the land in Sweden or in 5 the water off Sweden. I don't know whether 6 he found it in the birds -- in the 7 feathers, I believe. And it got into the 8-- came to the knowledge ofour people in 9 London, our London plant, London office, 1 0 and they wrote us and asked ifwe knew 1 1 anything about it. We said this is all 1 2 news to us. So then we s aid why don ' t you 1 3 talk to Jenssen and f i n d out what he 1 4 knows . So Wood went over there and h e 1 5 communicated with the management in St. 1 6 Louis about this and said maybe we ought to 1 7 find out more about what Jenssen and 1 8 Widmark have been doing with this, because 1 9 at that time there was confusion with DDT, 2 0 he was looking for an interference with 2 1 DDT, and was looking for DDT in the 2 2 ecosystem, and he found out that he had 2 3 this interference in his chromatograph, and 2 4 eventually he found out the i nterfering 2 5 compound was PCB. Whose PCB, I don't think (GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 22 1 WATER PCB-SD0000033513 1 ; he identified it. We probably had less 2 than 2 0 percent of the market in Europe. 3 So we thought well, we'd better find out 4 about this. So we sent a group of people 5 over, including our Mr. Wheeler from the 6 medical department, and taJked to Jenssen 7 and Widmark. And they came back and said 8 this man has got some prettysophisticated 9 instrumentation, spectrophotometers with 1 0 gas chromatography. I'm not good at 1 1 explaining this completely, but it was 1 2 pretty sophisticated. We didn't have it, 1 3 Monsanto didn't have it. So Wheeler came 1 4 back and said it looks like this man may be 1 5 on to something, let's get the equipment 1 6 and check it out. 1 7 Q. Did you say Wheeler? 1 8 A. Wheeler. 1 9 Q. And did Monsanto purchase the 2 0 necessary equipment to check it out? 2 1 A. Yes. It took a little while. I 2 2 this was not an off the counter i t e m . 2 3 Q Do you know how long it did t a ke ? 2 4 A . N o , I don't. Months rather t h a n 2 5 weeks. |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS , MISSOURI 222 WATER PCB-SD0000033514 1 Q. Is it fair to say that the results 2 of the Swedish work were considered serious 3 by Monsanto'at the time? 4 A . Well, first, we wanted -- yes, it 5 was certainly consi dered important, I think 6 i s the term rather than serious. F i r s t of 7 all , we really didn ' t know what it was. I t 8 was all news to us. And we decided let's 9 find out if it really is PCB out there, and 1 0 where else is it. So, yes, it was 1 1 important to us. 1 2 Q And how soon after the d i s c 1 o s u r e 1 3 o f the S w e d i s h work to Monsanto i n S t 1 4 Lou is d id Mr. Wheeler go to Swed e n 9 1 5 A . I t h ink we found out ab o u t i t i n 1 6 ' 6 7 and Wheel er went over there i n 1 i k e M a y 1 7 o f '68. I be lieve I'm correct i n the 1 8 dates . 1 9 Q . In answer to my question about the 2 0 seriousness of the information a moment ago 2 1 you said that Monsanto considered it 2 2 important . What was the reason for 2 3 considering the information important? 2 4 A . Well, about that time the question 2 5 of non-biodegradabi lity became important, |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 223 WATER PCB-SD0000033515 1 it was given a lot of attention by 2 scientists and ecologists, and if we had a 3 product that was out in the environment and 4 conceivably getting into the feathers of 5 birds, we ought to find out more about it. 6 Q. In your use of the term 7 non-biodegradability just now, are you 8 referring to the fact that if PCRs are 9 found in birdfeathers or in soil it is not 1 0 biodegrading? 11 A. No.Biodegrading -- I'll have to 1 2 qualify that. No. That is not the test 1 3 for biodegradability. I f you take a piece 1 4 of gravel, that doesn ' t b iodegrade . And we 1 5 had thought that PCB was a compound that 1 6 was very inert, much simi 1 a r to a p .iece of 1 7 gravel, and if we put the -- if a PCB got 1 8 into the river or estuary or the ocean it 1 9 would go to the bottom and lie there like a 2 0 piece of gravel. Well, something -- if it 2 1 gets into the birds feathers we know that 2 2 something is happening . 11 isn't lying 2 3 there like a piece of gravel, there is some 2 4 metabolism by some of the marine organisms 2 5 that eventually finds its way in the food |G 0 R E REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 224 WATER PCB-SD0000033516 1 c h a i n u P into the birds. 2 was i mportant t o u s . And that ' s why it 3 Q Have you heard the term befo r e 4 "Per s i s t s i n the e n v i r o n m e n t " appl i e d t o 5 PCBs ? 6 A . Yes. 7 Q. And what does that term mean to 8 you? 9 A . 11 doesn't biodeg r a d e . 1 0 Q I s the finding of PCBs i n the 1 1 feathers o f birds evidence of the 1 2 persisten c e of PCBs in the enviro nment? 1 3 A . Not necessarily. I mean , it's a 1 4 question o f there is some metabol ism in the 1 5 food chain that gets it up to the birds . 1 6 Whether that is -- skips all the lower -- 1 7 I mean. now we're s peaking theore t i c a 1 . 1 8 Whether this is in the food chain , i t 1 9 starts with the algae and then go e s t o the 2 0 shrimp and then it goes to the ma eke r a 1 and 2 1 then it goes to the Peregrine Fal con o r the 2 2 Bald Eagle and finally ends up in t h o s e 2 3 feathers, that is one way, it has t o b e 2 4 metabolized . But persistence, 2 5 non-biodegradability is -- you f i n d GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 225 WATER PCB-SD0000033517 1 ] material in birds and in humans that is 2 biodegradable , obviously, it's in there . 3 Food is biodegradable, it's in there . You 4 take minerals that can't be bi odegraded , 5 they can be changed and metabolized and get 6 into the person's body. 7 Q. In the example you just gave of 8 PCBs going into algae, into shrimp, into 9 mackerals, and so forth, and ultimately 1 0 into the feathers of Bald Eagles, is that 1 1 PCB being metabolized or not being 1 2 metabolized? 1 3 A. It's being metabolized. That's a 1 4 phenomenon called bioaccumu 1 at i on . There 1 5 is a little bit i. n the algae, the shrimp. 1 6 The mackeral eats the shrimp, he ends up 1 7 with more PCBs. The Peregrine Falcon eats 1 8 the mackeral and it ends up with more 1 9 PCBs. So it's metabolized and accumulated. 2 0 Q. When you say it ends up with more 2 1 PCBs, what do you mean? 2 2 A. Well, there is more PCBs in the 2 3 Peregrine Falcon than there was in a 2 4 shrimp . 2 5 Q. Because -- GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 226 WATER PCB-SD0000033518 1 A . Of bioaccumulation. 2 Q. And what is the mechanism that 3 results in 'the greater quantity of PCBs in 4 the falcon than the fish? 5 A. Because if algae comes up -- 6 these are all theoretical numbers . I f the 7 algae comes up with one part per million, 8 the shrimp eats a lot of algae, so he gets 9 a lot of PCBs, even though it's there in 1 0 one part per million, so he may end up with 1 1 a hundred parts per million in his body, so 1 2 the mackeral eats a lot of shrimp and he 1 3 ends up with a higher level of PCB in its 1 4 body than the shrimp has. So along comes 1 5 the eagle and it may eat the mackeral1s 1 6 liver, and finds out that there is more -- 1 7 the mackeral has a higher quantity of PCB 1 8 in its liver and its fat than -- much more 1 9 than way down at the bottom of the food 2 0 chain, the algae, so here is the falcon 2 1 eating the liver and some of the fat of the 2 2 fish and ends up with a higher level of PCB 2 3 than those lower in the food chain. 2 4 Q. What characteristic of PCBs is it 2 5 that results in bioaccumulation, if it's |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 227 WATER PCB-SD0000033519 1 one characteristic? 2 A. I don't know. i 3 Q . I s there lea rning o n that topi c 4 or - - 5 A . I ' m sure there is pe o p 1 e more 6 know 1 e d g e a b 1 e than I that c o u Id t e 11 y o u . 7 Q . Did you c o m m u n i c a t e with Mr . 8 W h e e 1 e r before he t r a v e 1 e d t o S w e d e n on his 9 trip i n May of '68 , i f that ' s when it w as? 1 0 A. Yes. 1 1 Q. And for what purpose did you 1 2 communicate with Mr. Wheeler? 1 3 A . I said go over the re a n d find out 14 v e r y t h i ng you can. I m e a n , th e p u r p o s e 1 5 as to f ind out is t h i s r e a 1 1 y P C B , how i. s 1 6 e f i n d i n g it. We haven ' t f o u n d i t . I 1 7 e a n, we haven't gone do w n -- w ere able t o 1 8 get down to levels that he was talking 1 9 about. So find out what he's done and how 2 0 he did it. Can we do it. We, meaning 2 1 Monsanto, not the medical department. 2 2 Q. Why was Mr. Wheeler selected to go 2 3 on this trip? 2 4 A. We], 1, he was a - - the member of 2 5 the medical department, and the medical IGORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS , MISSOURI 228 WATER PCB-SD0000033520 1 j department was probably in a sense a t that 2 time closer to environmental problems than 3 anybody, any other group in the company . 4 We sent also a research man, a production 5 man and an analytical chemist from a n 6 analytical chemist's department . 7 Q. And who was the research man who 8 accompanied Mr. Wheeler? 9 A. I thought it was Bill Richard, Dr. 1 0 Richard . I b e 1 ieve that was it. 1 1 Q And w h o was the productio 1 2 A . I don' t know. Bob, Rober 1 3 Keller. Dr. Robert Keller was the 1 4 analytical man. 1 5 Q. Did those gentlemen render a 1 6 written report upon return from Sweden? 1 7 A. I'm sure they did. 1 8 Q. Do you remember whether they did 1 9 or not? 20 A. Yes, I'm sure. Yes, I know they 2 1 did. 2 2 Q. Were you present during any 2 3 discussion where the results of their trip 2 4 to Sweden was a topic for conversation? 2 5 A . I don't know if I was there when (GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS , MISSOURI 229 WATER PCB-SD0000033521 1 the whole group was there. But after all 2 Wheeler was in the office next to me and we 3 talked it over when he came back, what did 4 you find out and where do we go from here. 5 Q . And did Mr. Wheeler find out from 6 you where do we go from here, to use your 7 term? 8 A . Yes. I think the whole task force 9 was sort of formalized. and they came up 1 0 with an agenda for a c ti o n . I don ' t recall 1 1 the details of it. But the main -- the 1 2 first thing was let's get this instrument 1 3 and let's start finding out ourself about 1 4 this. 1 5 Q Were you a member of the task 1 6 t o which you have referred? 1 7 A . No, I was not. 1 8 Q Who was on the task force 1 9 A . 11 w a s Wheeler and Keller , and 2 0 don't know who else. Maybe Richard. But I 2 1 don't know who else was on it. 2 2 Q. Did Dr. Richard report to you upon 2 3 his return? 24 A. No. I mean, he never reported to 2 5 me a t any time, he was in the research |G 0 R E REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 23 0 WATER PCB-SD0000033522 1 department. Wheeler reported to me but I 2 think they sent their report and their 3 recommendations to everybody concerned from 4 the head of the organic division, whoever 5 it was a t that time, to anybody concerned 6 with PCBs. 7 Q. Did you ultimately conclude that 8 the Swedish work was sound? 9 A . Yes. 1 0 Q. And approximately when did you 1 1 reach that conclusion? ' 1 2 A. Gosh, I guess by the end of '58 1 3 - - '68. 1 4 Q. And what factors went into that 1 5 conclusion, from your point of view? 1 6 A. Well, I think that -- I thi. nk 1 7 limited work in our analytical laboratory, 1 8 whether it was with new instrumentation or 1 9 not, was part of it, and then there was a 2 0 fellow out in California, Risebrough, who 2 1 came up with some similar information. 2 2 Q. How did you learn of Dr. 2 3 Risebrough's work? 2 4 A. I don't know if he called me or we 2 5 read it in the San Francisco Chronicle, I j i i (GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 23 1 WATER PCB-SD0000033523 1 don't know. 2 Q Do you know if Dr. Risebrough 3 s u b m i t t e d a' draft of the paper he was 4 propo sing to publish to Monsanto for 5 comments? 6 A . I don't recall whether he did or 7 not. We had pretty friendly relations with 8 Risebrough, we'd give him samples and stuff 9 like that when he asked for them. 1 0 Q. Do you reco] lect which Aroclors 1 1 were identified as a result of the Swedish 1 2 work? 1 3 A. Yes. Nothing below 1254. 1 4 Q. And do you recall which Aroclors 1 5 were identified as a result of Risebrough's 1 6 work? 1 7 A. Nothing below 1254. 1 8 Q. Did you participate in any 1 9 discussions in 1968, Dr. Kelly, where the 2 0 subject of the discussion -- or a subject 2 1 of the discussion was the affect on the 2 2 future of PCB-based products of the Swedish 2 3 work? 2 4 A . Well, first of all. I'm not sure 2 5 of the date, I mean, when we did |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS , MISSOURI 23 2 WATER PCB-SD0000033524 1 participate in discussions a s to where w e 2 would go if we found out based on what 3 information' we found out, not only the 4 Swedish work, it would be work that was 5 done by Risebrough. By that time the 6 government was getting very much interested 7 in the presence of PCB in the environment, 8 and they were doing investigative work, 9 too. It wasn't only based on Sweden. 1 0 Sweden and Risebrough started the bail 1 1 rolling, but everybody was examining for 1 2 PCB following those two people. 1 3 Q . And in the period following -- I 1 4 don't know if you just can't identify the 1 5 date, but do you recall participating in 1 6 discussions in '68 about the future of 1 7 PCB-based products following on the Swedish 1 8 work? 1 9 MR. PREUSS: I think he said that 2 0 he couldn't recall whether it was '68 or 2 1 not. 2 2 A . Yes. We had two meetings with the 2 3 executive committee on -- development 2 4 committee, but I don't know the dates. And 2 5 I had numerous meetings with the head of |G 0 R E REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 233 WATER PCB-SD0000033525 1 the organic division 2 MR. T A L L 0 N : And who was that, the 3 head of the* organic division? 4 A. I think it was whoever was the 5 chief a t that time -- I mean, the 6 vice-pres ident in charge of it. But I 7 don't recall. They've had quite a few 8 changes in that, so I don't know who was 9 i n 19 6 8 or '69. 1 0 Q Was it Howard Bergen? 1 1 A . No , he wasn't the vice-president 1 2 It was either Mason or Menkler. I mean, I 1 3 don't know. Bergen wasn't that high in the 1 4 organization . 1 5 Q. Let me show you a document. Dr. 1 6 Kelly, which bears production numbers Tran 1 7 008619 through 008622 1 8 (Transwestern Deposition Exhibit Number 1 9 17 6 mark'd for ident i f i c a t i. o n ) . 2 0 A . Yes, sir. I've r e a d it. 2 1 Q Have you seen this before? 2 2 A. I think I have. I don't know 2 3 whose it is, there doesn't seem to be any 2 4 signature on the bottom of it. 2 5 Q . I would note for the record that GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 23 4 WATER PCB-SD0000033526 1 there is a little bit of handwriting on the 2 bottom r ight-hand corner o f the last page. 3 it looks like it says "R . E . Keller" . 4 A . That ' s Keller, not Kelly. 5 Q . Keller, right. 6 A . But whether he wrote it or whether 7 this was his copy or not, I don't know. 8 Q . You think y o u recall the 9 circumstances under w h i c h you think you may 1 0 have seen this? 1 1 A. I guess when it was -- somebody 1 2 put all this together and sent it around to 1 3 the people interested. But I don't know 1 4 any more than that. 1 5 Q. Would you just takea moment to 1 6 glance at the first entry on the first 1 7 page, "12/15/66, Report of new chemical 1 8 hazard-New Scientist, December '66, 1 9 Jensen's work". 2 0 A. Yes. 2 1 Q. You stated earlier you were unsure 2 2 of whether the first awareness you had of 2 3 Jensen's work was '66 or '67, does 2 4 reviewing that entry or any information on 2 5 this page refresh your recollection as to (GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 23 5 WATER PCB-SD0000033527 1 when you learned of Jensen's work? 2 A. No, because I think the New 3 Scientist is a n English publication and 4 that generally doesn't cross my desk. So 5 -- but then when Widmark sent a letter to 6 Ford, that was practically '67, Ford is a t 7 Monsanto, and then I don't know when that 8 -- when the publicity was, sometime before 9 Wood visited Sweden. The pres s r e 1 e a s e , I 1 0 don't know when that was. But the new s 1 1 story was what caused Wood t o go over t o 1 2 Sweden in January of '67. 1 3 Q . You had testified earlier. I 1 4 believe, that you thought that Mr. Woo 1 5 might have vi sited Sweden later on i n 1 6 of '68. 1 7 A. Gee, did I say that? I was 1 8 wrong. 1 9 MR. PREUSS: What was that 2 0 question again? 2 1 MR . TALLON : Let me just -- 2 2 A . He said th a t I testi fied earlier 2 3 that Wood went over in '68. 2 4 MR . TALLON : Do you recall when 2 5 Wood went to Sweden ? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 236 WATER PCB-SD0000033528 1 MR. PREUSS: 0 r did you say 2 Wheeler? 3 M R T A L L 0 N : That's the next 4 question . 5 A. Certainly whoever compiled this 6 sounds like if Wood went to Sweden in '67, 7 that's when he went. 8 Q. And what was Wood's job at the 9 time? 1 0 A . He w a s sort of technical service 1 1 i n E n g 1 a n d , t h e E n g 1 i sh operation, 1 2 Q Do y o u r e c o 1 lect communicating 1 3 w i t h him b e f o r e he vi sited Sweden? 1 4 A Gosh, I don' t know if I did or 15 not . I think I did. because I said, "Why 1 6 d o n ' t you go o v e r and find out more about 1 7 this ?" 1 8 Q Do y o u a t t a c h any sign ificance to 1 9 t h e fact that a c c o r d i ng t o this chronology 2 0 M r Wood visited S w e d e n 1 6 days after the 2 1 pres s release o f J a n u ary 10, 1967? 2 2 A. No. And I d on't even know who LKB 2 3 Instrument Company is . I don't know -- 2 4 maybe they were the p e o p1e who manufactured 2 5 that sophisticated an alytical tool that |G0RE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 237 WATER PCB-SD0000033529 1 Jensen was using. 2 Q. Let me show you a document Rates 3 s tamped -- one page document Bates stamped 4 Tran 0 0 7 5 6 6 . 5 (Transwestern Deposition Exhibit Number 6 177 mark'd for identification). 7 MR. TALLON: Why don't you take a 8 look at that document, please. Dr. Kelly. 9 A . Yes, sir, I rea d i t . 1 0 Q Doctor, I have just a few 1 1 questions on this docume n t . M r . Benignus 1 2 was in St . Louis? 1 3 A . Yes. 1 4 Q What was his jo b ? 1 5 A . He was in the f u n c t i o n a 1 fluids 1 6 departmen t, but he was m o s 11 y i n the 1 7 dielectri c part. 1 8 Q And Mr. Ruchana n was i n St. Louis? 1 9 A . Yes. 2 0 Q What was his jo b ? 2 1 A . Someplace in ma rketing, I don't 2 2 know. I mean, in this s a m e f i e 1 d 2 3 Q Mr. Cameron in Bruss els. do you 2 4 know what his job was? 2 5 A . No, I don't. |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 238 WATER PCB-SD0000033530 1 Q. Do you know if Mr. Buchanan 1 s 2 still living today? 9 3 A. I don't know. He's younger than 4 I, so he ought to be. 5 Q . G.R. Graham is listed a s being in 6 New York, do you know who that refers to? 7 A. X don't know any of those next 8 five people with the exception of Wood. 9 Q In other words, y o u don ' t know 1 0 Steenrod, Evans or Baxter? 1 1 A . No, I don ' t . 1 2 Q After Mr. Baxter ' s name there is a 1 3 Ruabon? 1 4 A. That's a plant in Wales, I think. 1 5 That's a location, just like London. 1 6 Ruabon is a geographical location. 1 7 Q. Is there an organizing principal 1 8 to the list of recipients of this 1 9 memorandum which you can discern from 2 0 looking at it? 2 1 A No, I can't. 2 2 MR. T A L L 0 N : Why don't we break 2 3 there . 2 4 (Deposition Recessed) 25 |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS , MISSOURI 239 WATER PCB-SD0000033531