Document VJB78edkaLJ9noQRwLaVpnn1g

1 A/C Pipe Producers Association \) Public Affairs Committee TO J. F. Welch, Vice President FROM Internal Correspon ence April 21,1982 DATE Field Problem - Weston, Wisconsin REF: JFW correspondence, same title, March 16,1982 ACTION REQUIRED: Review for information On March 22, 1982, a public hearing was held in Weston, Wisconsin to review the allegations of Dr. William Croft that the A/C water system in that town is deteriorating and creating a public health hazard. Enclosed is an outline report prepared by Hal Olson (Johns-Manville) and a news article from The Daily Herald. If you have any questions, please do not hesitate to call. JFW/ajb Enclosure ec: A. Kahn, Esq. copies to: Public Affairs Committee H. Olson w/o enclosure - R. LeGault B. Cook W. Perrell J. Woods J. Baker T. Dougherty W. McCallie w/o enclosure B. 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S3 2 C uli-u b 9 b#, * w n ~ g =: ; v -a * -2o * SZ O ; u* mH ow wrveeC t' **- w 42 ok <tS VI -- -- i"i; ts--=?Z2---vg- V-*'- o( #W c3 I E JC &-? rt iDl~"S2 '. cr-,9 *f8c --O : -*Ew .26*3 *5 oae ^ *1 OHS n*5*^ ec o s .25 *n o 5S~ SO.; CAPCO JEN 0010293 Weston Asbestos Meeting - March 22, 1982 George Million opened the meeting (Marathon County Health Director) "Information meeting only" "Asbestos: Water and Air" First speaker: Dr. Henry Anderson (Wisconsin State Public Health Department) "Asbestos disease is dose related - duration--amount." "Asbestos is a utilitarian product par excellance" "Many uses". \. - Pictures of old industrial plants; Patterson, NJ Made point that pictures are not indicative of today's industrial plants. "There are now good preventative measures to avoid asbestos exposure". "Major concern now is existing old asbestos insulation". "--that care be taken in removing old insulation." "Route of entry important", "Occupational exposure ----inhalation". "Asbestos is one of the most studied and best understood but we still don't know all." - Gave data on synergistic effect of smoking on asbestos disease. Dr. Anderson spent considerable time on E.P.A. water quality model - i.e. 300,000 f/1 relates to increase in cancer deaths, i.e. Drinking two liters per day of 300,000 f/1 water for 70 years will result in one additional death per 100,000 deaths. H. Olson's comment: What can we do to discredit this model? Dr. Anderson tried to emphasize this was a low risk 'level (equal to getting hit by lightening) but it did cause a stir in the audience. Second speaker: Carol Gannon from Dr. Anderson's office Report on air samples taken: "Nine homes tested for asbestos in air" "Two in areas other than Weston for control" "Used NIOSH method" "Purpose of tests to determine if air from humidifiers exceeded OSHA F/cc level". CAP CO JEN 0010294 "Total samples: 43". "Range of results: 0.01 F/cc to 0.02 F/cc" "Results well below occupational standard of 2F/cc" "There was no significant difference between control homes and Weston homes". Applause from audience - Third speaker: Marty Kanerak, University of Wisconsin - Described reserve mining operation that developed concern for asbestos in water supply. Chart on Gibel study which shows "some inctease in cancer to rats fed asbestos" (Kanerak mentioned asbestos fed in a filter cake containing plastic material, but did not emphasize the increase in cancer could also be attributed to the plastic.) Referred to "government animal feeding study" (This is NIEHS Study) - "No excess cancer noted". Connecticut Study: "Negative results" "Size and geo metry of the fiber is the critical element--not chemistrv of fiber". Duluth/Minneapolis Study: "Duluth had lower cancer rate over all" "Only 15 years exposure and too early to tell". Quebec Study: "Essentially negative according to authors, but looking closer shows some higher rates for asbestos exposure". San Francisco Bay Area: - "Higher cancer rates for area's of high asbestos counts" "Results not likely to be due to chance" "Stable tracts gave essentially the same results". (H. Olson*s comment: This is not what Kenny Crimp reports) Washington- State Study: "Totally negative" "This is possibly because fiber size in Washington study was smaller than fiber size in San Francisco Study?'. Weakness of indirect study", "It is possible asbestos was not the factor", "Should do a case control study in California", "Need more study". (H. Olson's comment: Kanerak reported accurately but over all effect seemed to be his study did establish a causeeffect connection.) CAP CO JEN 0010295 Fourth speaker: Tom' Bashau ' (Stand in for Bob Baumeister of Dept. Natural Resources) "I will not discuss health effects but will report on the existance of asbestos in water in Wisconsin*' "35 systems in Wisconsin sampled for asbestos in water" Results of testing program: Water Systems Fiber Level # Samples STATEWIDE N.D to 12 x 106 F/L < 1 x 106 >1 x 106 3T 5 WESTON N.D. to 1.4 x 106 F/L < 1 x 106 >1 x 106 5r Fiber Level Water Wells N.D. to 3.4 x 106 # Samples < 1 x 106 >1 x 106 24 2 Asbestos is prevalent in ground water. N.D to 1.3 x 106 < 1 x 106 >1 x 106 61 If ground water is corrosive there is a problem with all pipes-----"red water". "You will have a problem regardless of the type of pipe you use." Fifth Speaker: John Standridge - State of Wisconsin Health Dept. Laboratory Standridge described lab procedures for counting asbestos fiber. It is difficult to count and subject to wide variations. QUESTIONS & ANSWERS Q. Are there any studies that prove a positive relation between asbestos and cancer? A. (Kanerak) "I guess I didn't get my point across". The San Francisco study was a positive study." Q. Could the asbestos in the ground water be due to as bestos cement pipe in the ground? A. Tom Bashau"No. asbestos in ground water is found where there is no A/C pipe in the ground." CAPCO JEN 0010296 Q. Why should we believe what you are saying and not believe Croft? A. Standbridge: ''We are sure our test results for asbestos in water are accurate. McCrone Associates, E.P.A. and State lab all got similar results." Anderson: "On air sampling our studies used procedures recommended by NIOSH. Fibers longer than 5 microns and using optical'microscopy.(gave the impression Croft used a different technique)" Results are like comparing oranges and apples." Q. Is the time of the year when samples are taken a factor? (In summer when Croft took samples the velocity could be higher). A. Tom Bashau: "We don't know." Q. Is the town board contemplating doing nothing, and run the risk of future law suits for failure to act? A. Tom Bashau: "The Department of Natural resources is concerned about aggressive water, and will make recommendations to control water quality. Corrosive water is a serious problem for C.I. and A/C." Jack Allen - Chairman of Town Board: "No decision yet on pipe removal." "Facts are conflicting between these two meetings." "Town must go into a water treatment program." "Want to get results from McCrone tests before a decision is made to pull the pipe." "Have interviewed six engineering firms. If a decision is made to pull pipe it could be done quickly." "Town Board is working hard." Q. How deteriorated is the pipe? A. Jack Allen: "We are having an engineering firm work on that." (Note to H.L.O. - Write to Jack Allen and Dick Weber requesting J.M. be present during this test.) (H.L.O. comment - In a subsequent discussion with Don Oakland (reporter) was advised there already had been some crush tests performed. I commented to Oakland that it was a good bet the tests for crush strength showed no loss of strength or we would have heard about it.) Q. Is there a clear cut difference between breathing fiber and drinking fiber in water? A. Million: "The evidence is clear on breathing asbestos but much less on drinking fiber." Anderson: Went back to the Water Quality criteria model CAPCO JEN 0010297 Anderson (cont'd): i.e. 300,000 F/L for 70 years results in one additional death per 100,000. Q. What is the length of. fiber in our water? A. Standbridge: "Most short fiber in Weston." Tom Bashau: "A little in the high range for distri bution systems but not considered long."" The longest were 8 microns but the vast majority were 1 microns or less." Kanerak: "Fibers need to be longer than 10 microns to be a hazard." Q. Why spend six million dollars to replace pipe if we still have asbestos in our wells? -Applause- -v No Answer. Q. Dr. Croft took xxx samples (air). Do you have enough data from your work? (9 houses) A. Carol Gannon: "Our results were way under occupational exposure level." Anderson: "The number of samples doesn't matter if a wrong technique is used." "There are no studies to substantiate asbestos gets into homes from humidifiers." "It was a very serious report that asbestos in homes was exceeding occupational exposure levels." "We took it very seriously. It would have been a medical emer gency." "We do not believe an emergency exists." Q. On air counts did you only count long fibers? A. Carol Gannon: "Counted 5 microns and longer." Q. Is difference in Croft's air count and state air count only a difference in fiber length? A. Anderson: Reply was somewhat evasive. "We will be willing to do some parallel sampling with Mr. Croft." Q. How many of the panel members would drink Weston water? A. All members raised their hands. Q. Were there any sutdies done on the increase in fiber level as water moved along the pipe? A. Kanerak: "Pipe contributed negligible amounts of fiber to the water." CAP CO JEN 0010298 Statements trom a man in.the audience:- "It's time we told the board to forget the asbestos problem." -Applause- Q. What effect will water treatment have on asbestos in water from A/C pipe? A. Tom Bashau:- "We are concerned about corrosive water on all pipes including C.I." Q. Was the D.N.R. aware of corrosive water in Weston when the pipe was installed? A. Tom Bashau: "I can't answer." Jack Allen: "I can't answer directly. . I can only read past minutes." v - An update on board action^ "Water has been treated. Some difference of opinion on how good was the treatment." "We must go to a more stringent program." "Engineers tell us the asbestos count will drop drastically by treating the water." Q. Do you have enough samples to form an opinion? A. Tom Bashau: "D.N.R. has about 50 samples from Weston area. Million: "Additional samples are being taken." Q. Are there substitutes for asbestos? A. Tom Bashau: "There are substitutes for A/C pipe, but there would be problems of red water with C.I." Q. What action is planned for the future? A. Jack Allen: "We will treat the water. After all samples are in we will make a decision if we should pull the pipe." I Q. What treatment is required and will it open an other "can of worms"? A. Tom Bashau: "Zink coatings have been used with A/C pipe. No matter what kind of pipe is used it would be attacked. Not positive if another problem would result." CAP CO JEN 0010299 Q. What is the cost factor for treatment? A. Tom Bashau: "This will be looked into by engineers." Q. What was the difference in fiber count by you and Croft? A. Standgridge: "A factor of at least 10." Meeting adjourned. After the meeting I introduced myself to Jack Allen, Chairman of the Town Board, and Dick Weber, Attorney. Neither had any significant comment to make. I asked Weber if he had noted where there had been applause from the audience. He said he did. This meeting was covered by WSAW-TV and the Daily Herald. Dave Thompson (TV) wanted me to leave during Kanerak's presentation for an interview. I refused as I wanted to hear Kanerak but did agree to meet after the meeting. Thompson had a deadline to meet and was gone by the time the meeting ended. I did not meet Don Oakland at the meeting, but did call him the next morning. I told him we were pleased that George Million had arranged the meeting and thought the meeting gave the citizens of Weston some valuable information. Alan Vogt and Mike Krosnoski attended the meeting. Alan made a tape recording of Kanerak's presentation. Alan, Mike and I all concur that the meeting went well and that it will be difficult for the Town Board to make a decision to remove A/C pipe based on current information and the general reaction of the audience. /ba CAP CO JEN 0010300