Document V3n46kdvm0N8D29L8aGbgpDpg

FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 2 NORTHERN DISTRICT OF ALABAMA 3 EASTERN DIVISION 4 5 WALTEROWENS, et al., ) 6 Plaintiffs, ) 7 8 vs. ) ) CIVIL ACTION NO. 9 ) CV-P-440-E 1 0 MONSANTO COMPANY, ) 11 De f endant. ) 12 13 DEPOSITION OF: DOUG RICH 14 15 In accordance with Rule 5 (d) of The 1 6 Alabama Rules of Civil Procedure, as Amended, 1 7 effective May 15, 1988, I, TAMMY JENNINGS 1 8 GREGORY, am hereby delivering to MS. LAURA RUTH 1 9 the original transcript of the oral testimony 2 0 taken on the 2nd day of November, 1999, along 2 1 with exhibits. 2 2 Please be advised that this is the same and 2 3 not retained by the court reporter, nor filed 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1 - 8 0 0 - 8 8 8 -DEPO HARTOLDMON0036407 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 2 1 with the Court. 2 The deposition of Doug Rich was taken 3 before Tammy R. Jennings Gregory, commencing at 4 2:00 P.M. on the 2nd day of November, 1999, by 5 the Plaintiffs, at the law offices of Fite & 6 Miller, Anniston, Alabama pursuant to the 7 stipulations set forth herein. 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036408 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 3 1 APPEARANCE S 2 3 Appearing For The Plaintiffs: 4 5 MITHOFF & JACKS, LLP 6 By: Laura Ruth, Esquire 7 and Drew Wright, Esquire 8 111 Congress Avenue, Suite 1010 9 Austin, Texas 78701 10 11 Appearing For The Defendant: 12 13 LIGHTFOOT, FRANKLIN & WHITE 14 By: Adam Peck, Esquire 15 The Clark Building 16 400 20th Street North 17 Birmingham, Alabama 35203-3200 18 1 9 Court Reporter: 20 2 1 Tammy R. Jennings Gregory 22 23 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1 - 8 0 0 - 8 8 8 -DEPO HARTOLDMON0036409 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 4 1 INDEX 2 3 Witness: Doug Rich 4 Stipulations................................................................ page 5 5 Examination by Ms. Ruth........................................................page 7 6 Reporter's Certificate............................................................page 174 7 8 9 10 11 12 EXHIBITS 13 14 Plaintiffs' No . 2 3............................. ................................page 95 15 Plaintiffs' No . 24............................. ................................page 97 16 Plaintiffs' No . 2 5................. ..................page 12 2 17 Plaintiffs' No . 2 6............................. ................................page 14 0 18 19 20 21 22 23 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036410 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 5 1 STIPULATIONS 2 3 IT IS STIPULATED AND AGREED by and 4 between the parties through their respective 5 counsel that the deposition of Doug Rich may be 6 taken before Tammy R. Jennings Gregory, at the 7 law offices of Fite & Miller, Anniston, Alabama 8 on the 2nd day of November, 1999. 9 10 11 IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED that 12 the signature to and the reading of the 1 3 deposition by the witness is waived, the 14 deposition to have the same force and effect as 1 5 if full compliance had been had with all laws and 16 rules of court relating to the taking of 1 7 depositions. 18 19 2 0 IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED that 2 1 it shall not be necessary for any objections to 2 2 be made by counsel to any questions, except as to 2 3 form or leading questions, and that counsel for 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036411 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 6 1 the parties may make objections and assign 2 grounds at the time of trial or at the time said 3 deposition is offered in evidence or prior 4 thereto. 5 6 7 IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED that 8 the notice of filing of the deposition is waived. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036412 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 7 1 STATE OF ALABAMA. CITY OF ANNISTON, 2 NOVEMBER 2, 1999, 3 2:00 P.M., 4 5 DOUG RICH, 6 having been first duly sworn, was examined and 7 testified as follows: 8 9 COURT REPORTER: Usual stipulations 1 0 okay? 11 MS . RUTH : Yeah 1 2 MR . PECK : Fine 13 14 EXAMINATION BY MS.. RUTH: 15 Q. Mr. Rich, have you ever given a deposition 1 6 before? 1 7 A . No . 1 8 Q. No. Okay. Well, then let me give you the 19 long version of this, I guess. 2 0 You understand that when you give 2 1 an oath, it's the same as giving an oath in 2 2 the courtroom, and that you're required to 2 3 tell the truth under perjury if you don't? 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036413 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 1 A. (Witness nods head.) 2 Q. Okay. Great. Let's see. Why don't we start 3 out with - - I think we're going to start out 4 tracing your work history. Do you work for 5 Monsanto right now? 6 A. Uh-huh (indicating yes). 7 Q. When did you begin working for Monsanto? 8 A. 1965. 9 Q. 1965. And where, what department did you 1 0 start in in 1965? 11 A. Niran department or parathion. 1 2 Q. Same thing; right? 13 A. Yeah, same thing. 14 Q. What did you do in that department? 1 5 A. I was operator. 1 6 Q. How long did you stay in that department? 1 7 A. From June till October. I got laid off. 1 8 Q. And you got laid off? 1 9 A. Uh-huh (indicating yes). 2 0 MR. PECK: Doug, one other thing 2 1 you have to do is you have to answer yes and 2 2 no because the court reporter has a hard time 2 3 with huh-uh (indicating no) and uh-huh 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1 - 8 0 0 - 8 8 8 - DEPO HARTOLDMON0036414 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 9 1 (indicating yes). Okay? 2 THE WITNESS: Okay. 3 MR. PECK: It happens to everybody, 4 but one of us will try to remind you. 5 Q. (By Ms. Ruth) Were you laid off because they 6 were downsizing at the time or things got 7 slow? 8 A. I was kind of vacation relief, and so when 9 the vacation period was over in October, they 1 0 laid me off. 11 Q. Basically vacation was summer time? 12 A . Right. 13 Q. And then you started back in - 14 A. - - February of '66. 15 Q. February of '66. What did you do in the 16 1 7 A. I had two small jobs. Worked at Anniston 1 8 Foundry, and then I went to work at the 1 9 Anniston Army Depot, and I was working there 2 0 when they called me back in February. 2 1 Q. So they gave you a call in February of '66 2 2 and asked you to come on back? 2 3 A. Uh-huh (indicating yes) . 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036415 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 10 1 Q. Where did you go in February of '66? 2 A. Aroclor department. 3 Q. Aroclor department. How long were you in the 4 aroclor department? 5 A. Until '72. I believe that's when they shut 6 it down. 7 Q. So you stayed there until they shut it down? 8 A. Yes, ma'am. 9 Q. We'll probably -- we're definitely going to 1 0 come back and talk about your time in the 11 aroclor department, but let's just finish 1 2 tracing your history up to date. Where did 1 3 you go in '72? 14 A. I went to the biphenyl department. 1 5 Q. Biphenyl department. We don't know much 16 about the biphenyl department either, so 1 7 you're the first one. You're going to have 1 8 to fill us in on that department. 1 9 How long were you in the biphenyl 2 0 department? 2 1 A. Let me think. Until 1979. 2 2 Q. 1979. Okay. And where did you go? 2 3 A. I went into the electrical department as 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888 -DEPO HARTOLDMON0036416 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 11 1 2 Q. I forgot to ask you. In the biphenyl 3 department, what did you do? 4 A . Operator. 5 Q. Operator. And you were an electrician after 6 that ? 7 A. Yes, ma'am, for three years. 8 Q. Three years. Is that with maintenance? 9 A . Right. 1 0 Q. Maintenance. Now, did you -- I've heard some 11 idea that sometimes in maintenance, you were 1 2 divided among the south plant and the north 13 plant. Did you work all through the plant? 14 A. I was a shift electrician. I worked on my 1 5 off shift, so I worked the whole plant. 1 6 Q. Okay. And you were that for three years, so 1 7 brings us to about 1982? 18 A. No - - yeah, right, right. '82. 1 9 Q. What did you do starting in '82? 2 0 A. I went to the painter insulator group. 2 1 Q. Painter insulator? 2 2 A. Uh-huh (indicating yes), that's also in the 2 3 maintenance department. 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1 - 8 0 0 - 8 8 8 -DEPO HARTOLDMON0036417 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 12 1 Q. Okay. And how long did you do that? 2 A. Until I believe it was 1985. 3 Q . 1985? 4 A. Yeah. I went to the P2S5 department then as 5 a chief operator. 6 Q. Okay. P2S5 is part of niran; is that right? 7 A. It was a department that supplied niran with 8 the department, yes. It was close to it. 9 Q. Okay. And then you were there until - 1 0 A. Let's see. Where did they send me then? 11 When Niran went out, they shut all these 1 2 departments down. 13 Q. What year was it again that niran went down, 14 '86? 15 A.. '86 or '87 they shut niran down. I'm not 16 real sure. Then I went back to the biphenyl 1 7 department. 1 8 Q. Okay. That's around '86 or '87? 1 9 A. Yeah, somewhere in there. 2 0 Q. Okay. And how long were you there? 2 1 A. I worked there until -- I believe it was 2 2 1 9 9 0. 23 Q. 1990. Are they still making biphenyl now? 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888 -DEPO HARTOLDMON0036418 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 13 1 A. Yes, ma'am. 2 Q. And then in 1990? 3 A. I went - - I'm going to shorten this - - PNP 4 department, paranitropheno1. We call it PNP. 5 Q. And you were there until? 6 A. And I worked there until I went to my present 7 job which was in -- let's see. 8 Q. So about '95? 9 A. Yeah, '95. 1 0 Q. I want to ask you real quick - - and maybe 11 this is my own ignorance. I thought PNP was 1 2 a by-product of the parathion? 13 A. It is. It is. 14 Q. But you shut down niran, and they shut down 15 parathion? 16 A. No. Yeah, it shut down parathion, but PNP 1 7 goes in making poison, which that's what 1 8 niran and parathion is, but it also goes in 1 9 Anicin Three and Tylenol. 2 0 Q. Okay. That's good. Kills the pain, I 2 1 guess . 2 2 A. No, it's just -- I don't know how to explain 23 it . 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1 - 8 0 0 - 8 8 8 -DEPO HARTOLDMON0036419 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 14 1 MR. PECK: Intermediary. 2 THE WITNESS: Yeah, intermediary 3 product. It can be important or something 4 good for you. Just according to how it's 5 mixed. 6 Q. (By Ms. Ruth) So you made it separately? 7 A. Uh-huh (indicating yes) . 8 Q. I guess I thought it was -- at one point, was 9 it also a by-product of the production of 1 0 parathion? 11 A. No, it was -- we -- 12 Q. Or it was an ingredient? 13 A. It's an ingredient. It and P2S5 was both 14 mixed together to make the poison, the 15 parathion, along with some more. 1 6 Q. Okay. That was my confusion. So did y'all 1 7 make the PNP? 1 8 A. Right. 19 Q . Okay. 2 0 A. We make it from scratch, yes. 2 1 Q. All right. And then from -- and PNP is still 22 being made ? 2 3 A . Right . 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036420 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 15 1 Q. And now you're - 2 A. -- I'm in shipping department. 3 Q. Shipping department. What do you do for 4 them? 5 A. I work in the warehouse loading trucks, 6 unloading, drumming, filling up drums with 7 product s. 8 Q. Okay. What I'm going to do now is take you 9 back to 1966, and we're going to talk about 1 0 your time in the aroclor department for a 11 while and then probably spend some time on 12 your time in the biphenyl department. 1 3 And I think those will be the two 14 major areas we go over. We've spent a good 1 5 amount of time talking to people who have 1 6 worked in parathion. We've got a good idea 1 7 how that worked. 1 8 Let's see. You said you were an 1 9 operator? 2 0 A . Right . 2 1 Q. What did you work on as an operator? Were 2 2 you on the chlor inat. or s ? 23 A. I run all the jobs in there. Yeah, 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036421 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 16 1 chlorinators, stills, and acid department. 2 Q. Chlorinator, stills, and acid department. 3 And when you were working on the 4 chlorinators then, I understand that part of 5 working on the chlorinators you essentially 6 cook a sample with the chlorine -- you put 7 the chlorine and the biphenyl in it, and you 8 cook it until it had the appropriate amount 9 of -- percentage of chlorination, whether 1 0 you're making 1221 or - 11 A. Yeah, 42, 48, whatever. 1 2 Q. Right. And part of that process was you'd 1 3 take a sample? 14 A. Uh-huh (indicating yes) . 1 5 Q. Is that right? 1 6 A . Right. 1 7 Q. And how -- can you describe for me what - 1 8 how --- what the process was for taking a 1 9 samp1e ? 2 0 A. We got a beaker, went to the chlorinator and 2 1 filled it up and brought it back in the 2 2 control room, and we stirred it down to a 2 3 certain temperature -- 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036422 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 17 1 Q. I'm sorry. Is your beaker glass? 2 A . Yes. 3 Q. So a regular glass beaker like you'd have in 4 high school chemistry class? 5 A. Right, exactly. 6 Q. What is the -- is it a faucet or spout or, 7 you know, is it like a cooler spout on the 8 9 A. Right. Coming off discharge out of the pump, 10 circulating pump. So you take a -- 11 Q. Do you mind if I just ask you to draw it real 12 quic k. 1 3 I'm going to pull a Larry on you. 14 Larry likes to do this. I'd hate to 1 5 disappoint Larry and come back without 1 6 pictures. 1 7 Could you - - 1 8 A . I'm not an artist. 1 9 Q - That's all right. Neither am I . 20 A. (Witness drawing.) That's the chlorinator. 2 1 Q Okay . 22 A . This is the pump. I'll put a " P" there. And 2 3 this product circulated back out of here and 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888 -D E P 0 HARTOLDMON0036423 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 18 1 back - - 2 Q. Right. And you had coils; is that right, 3 that ran through the chlorinator, the coils? 4 A. Right. With chlorine gas. 5 Q. Chlorine gas. I thought there was -- was 6 there not cool water that ran through there 7 to help manage the -- do you not remember 8 that? 9 A. Let me think. It's been thirty something 1 0 years ago. 11 Q. I know. 12 A. In fact, I'm not sure I'm right about that 13 pump. It may have had an agitator instead of 14 a pump. I know the stills had a pump. 15 Q. Well, I think we have heard that there was a 16 pump on there also from other people. 1 7 A. Yeah, I think it was. I think this had a 1 8 pump . 1 9 But it had a sample poured out, and 2 0 you just opened it up, and this was 2 1 circulating under pressure, and you filled 2 2 your beaker up. 2 3 Q. Now, was it rushing out? I mean, did you 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036424 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 19 1 find that it -- would it rush out at you? I 2 mean, did you have to be quick? 3 A. No, you just gradually open it and just let 4 it slowly run -- 5 Q. Oh, gradually. 6 A. Just like opening a faucet. 7 Q. So it turned on like a faucet? 8 A . Exactly. 9 Q. And it kind of come out at whatever pressure 1 0 you needed for it to come out at? 11 A . Right . 1 2 Q. And then you just turn it back off? 1 3 A. Uh-huh (indicating yes). 14 Q. So you didn't normally have a problem with - - 1 5 did you have a problem with spills normally 1 6 through your samples? 1 7 A . No . 1 8 Q . No? 1 9 A . No . 2 0 Q. If a spill happened -- what would you do if 2 1 it came out too fast or you couldn't shut it 2 2 off? 2 3 A. Under the here ? 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036425 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 20 1 Q. Uh-huh (indicating yes). 2 A. Put sand on it or stay dry or something like 3 that on it. 4 Q. What's stay dry? 5 A. It's just a product that absorbs anything, 6 you know, oil or any kind of chemicals, soaks 7 it up and you shovel it up. 8 Q. What - - does it look like sawdust? 9 A. Yeah, kind of. 1 0 Q. Kind of like sawdust? 11 A. Yeah, kind of like cat litter or - 1 2 Q . Cat litter. 1 3 A. -- something like that. But I believe we 14 used sand mostly on it. 1 5 Q. Mostly sand? 16 A. Just dry sand. 1 7 Q. Okay. So you take your sample, you said, in 18 the beaker? 1 9 A. Uh-huh (indicating yes). 2 0 Q. And you bring it to another - 2 1 A. Bring it up to the control room. 2 2 Q . Okay. 2 3 A. And stir it down to a certain temperature and 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036426 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 21 1 put a hydrometer in it, and what that 2 hydrometer read was, you know, tells you when 3 the product was finished. Like you said 1221 4 or 42. It had different specs, you know. 5 Q. Okay. 6 A. Different degrees of chlorination according 7 to what product we was running. 8 Q. And it was called a hydro? 9 A . Hydrome t e r. 1 0 Q. Hydrometer. Okay. Does it look like a 11 t he rmome te r ? 1 2 A. It's a bulb type thing on the bottom with a 13 long glass up, and it's got numbers on it. 14 When you put it in the liquid, it'll sink 1 5 down, and you read the -- kind of like a 1 6 thermometer, but it floats. 1 7 Q. And you would -- would you have some kind of 1 8 chart that you'd match that - - whatever 1 9 number came up, you'd match it against what 2 0 you - - 2 1 A. We had a range of when the product was 22 finished. If it was too low, you have to 2 3 keep chlorinating it. You had a pretty good 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036427 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 22 1 range . 2 You could tell about when it was 3 finished by time. It was pretty close around 4 five minutes each batch. We kept a record of 5 it . 6 Q. Okay. And you kept a record of how long you 7 cooked each batch for? 8 A. Right. 9 Q. Where were those records kept? 1 0 A. We had them in the control room. 11 Q. Notebooks ? 12 A. Pad thing. It was printed, you know, each 13 batch number and what it ran. 14 Q. And it would tell you what your chlorination 1 5 came out to or just whatever your hydrometer 1 6 read? 1 7 A. What your hydrometer read, which was amount 1 8 of chlorine. 1 9 Q. And if you had to sample it three times, 2 0 would it reflect in the book that you had to 2 1 sample it three times? 2 2 A. No, only the finished product. 2 3 Q. The finished product was the only thing it 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036428 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 23 1 reflected in the book. 2 How is the chlorinator heated? How 3 did you cook it? 4 A. The chlorine heated it. 5 Q. The chlorine itself? 6 A. Right. 7 Q. When you were pumping the chlorine in, it was 8 hot, or is chlorine just naturally hot? 9 A. When I went to work there, we had a chlorine 1 0 department that made chlorine. 11 Q. Right. 1 2 A. And they would pump it over to us in a vapor 13 form. Later, we used cars with liquid, and 1 4 it went through a vapor and heated up into a 1 5 gas, and it went in here as a gas. 1 6 Q . So initially, it came over to you - - I mean, 1 7 was there -- did you go pick up -- how did 1 8 you get the gas, I guess, from the chlorine 1 9 department, I guess is the easiest way? 2 0 A. It was piped over. 2 1 Q. It was piped over. So there was actually 2 2 something that linked you all to the chlorine 2 3 department ? 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888 -DEPO HARTOLDMON0036429 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 24 1 A. Right . 2 Q. How far was the chlorine department? 3 A. It was right next to us. It was probably far 4 as here to across the street over there, ever 5 how far that is. 6 Q. Like the island part? 7 A. Yeah, where the parking lot is. 8 Q. Okay. 9 A. That's about the distance it was from our 1 0 department. 11 Q. And that would go -- that would come into a 12 central tank in your department that would 13 then pipe it into the different chlorinator? 1 4 A. It would come into a header. 1 5 Q. A header. 1 6 A. And then it'd just branch off and go to 1 7 different chlorinators we had. 1 8 Q. What does a header look like? 1 9 A. It's -- we'll, say this is the main line 2 0 coming from the chlorine department, and this 2 1 one would have little lines coming off, 2 2 smaller lines, and these would go to 2 3 different chlorinators. 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036430 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 25 1 Q. And then how would it - 2 A. We called that a header. 3 Q. Where would it come in on the chlorinator? 4 Would it come in at the top or bottom? 5 A. No, it came in at the bottom. Go up through 6 the product. 7 Q. And then later -- you said later you brought 8 over actually liquid chlorine? 9 A. Yes. They shut the chlorine department down. 1 0 I don't know when that was, but we started 11 getting it in rail cars from another company. 12 Q. Rail cars from another company. They'd bring 13 in drums of it ? 14 A. No, it was in a rail car, tanker. 15 Q. In a tanker? 1 6 A. U h - h u h (indicating yes). 1 7 Q. And how would it get from the tanker into - 1 8 A. It was piped up the thing called a vaporizer. 1 9 Q. As soon as it came in? 2 0 A. Yeah, we'd hook it up. You could open the 2 1 cars. We'd get eight cars at a time, and 2 2 put four on and open them up. They'd all go 2 3 in this central line, and -- 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036431 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 26 1 Q. So you operators -- the operators would do 2 that work? 3 A . Right. 4 Q. Okay. 5 A. And it would go into a vaporizer with steam 6 on it, and it would change that liquid into a 7 vapor, and it'd come out and go to this 8 header. 9 Q. Was the vaporizer inside or outside - 1 0 A. It was outside. 11 Q. -- of the aroclor building? It was outside 1 2 of it. 1 3 So -- I'm sorry. The rail tracks 14 that are right over there, is that where it 1 5 would come? I mean, would somebody bring a 16 train up those rail tracks? 1 7 A. Right, switching. 1 8 Q. The ones that run along Tenth Street there? 1 9 A. No, they was inside the plant. Yes, where 2 0 they'd come into the plant, yes. 2 1 Q. They'd come in the plant from over there? 2 2 A. Yes. 2 3 Q. And then you actually had rail tracks on the 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036432 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 27 1 plant? 2 A. Right. Over in our department, they'd split, 3 and they'd put four chlorine cars on one side 4 and four on the other. 5 And we had big cat walks, and you 6 could hook these into a central line, and 7 it'd come over to the department. 8 Q. You don't happen to have those pictures of 9 the plant with you, do you? 1 0 MR. PECK: No. 11 MR. WRIGHT: Do you want to use one 12 of the earlier exhibits? These were in 13 Walker's Exhibit. This is 1 and 2. 14 MR. PECK: Walker? 15 (Discussion off the record.) 16 Q. (By Ms. Ruth) Do you mind drawing me a quick 1 7 block of the aroclor department and kind of 1 8 label a few buildings around it? Say this is 19 the plant. And let's say this is -- that's 2 0 2 0 2. 21 MR. PECK: It's not there. It 2 2 wouldn't have been there. You know, 202 2 3 wasn't there. 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800~888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036433 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 28 1 MR . RUTH : The old 202 . 2 MR . PECK : It wasn ' t there yet. 3 MS . RUTH : In '66? 4 MR . PECK : Huh-uh (indicating no). 5 MS . RUTH : Not the new one. 6 MR . PECK : Okay . It wasn't called 7 2 0 2. 8 MS . RUTH : Right. I'm going to let 9 him fill it in, and this being Clydesdale. 1 0 Q. Now, if you want to tell me where the 11 aroclor - - 12 A. This is south? 1 3 Q. Right. That would be south. You might want 14 to put that on there so we know that later. 15 A. (Witness complies.) This is the property. 16 Q. Yeah, let's just say that's the property. I 1 7 doubt you guys have a square lot, but - 1 8 A. It's not square. Let's see. We'll say this 1 9 is coming in off 202 through the parking lot. 2 0 Office building. 2 1 Q. You don't have to put everything, just a few 2 2 things just to kind of give us - 2 3 A. That was the lab, and this was the aroclor. 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036434 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 29 1 Q. Okay. Where would niran be from there? 2 A. It was on the backside of the plant. 3 Q. Okay. 4 A. Here would be niran (indicating) . 5 Q. Okay. And then now where would your rail 6 car - 7 A. Tracks run like this (indicating). This is 8 the railroad. The chlorine tracks split. 9 Like I said, they put four cars here and four 1 0 here . 11 Q. And they would -- all four would be tank cars 12 full of liquid chlorine? 13 A. Right. I don't know how much they held. And 14 we used four at a time. We opened four cars 1 5 up and - 16 Q. How would you open it up? I mean, is there a 1 7 valve on there that you sort of screw a hose 1 8 onto? 1 9 A. Right. We had a common line going to the 2 0 department, and all these cars would hook 2 1 into that line, and you'd just start opening 2 2 them up one at a time until you got them all 23 on. And they would feed the department. 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036435 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 30 1 Cars was under pressure. 2 Q. Where is the vaporizer? 3 A. Right here in the department. 4 Q. Just kind of attached on the - - is it 5 actually attached to the building? 6 A. It was freestanding kindly out from the main 7 building. 8 Q. How big is the vaporizer? 9 A. It wasn't real big. About twice as big as a 1 0 hot water heater, I guess. 11 Q. For a house, for a person's house? 12 A. Yeah, say a forty-gallon hot water heater. 1 3 Q. And you could be pumping off -- how big were 14 those tanks? How much would each of those 1 5 tanks - - a full tank car like? 16 A. I'm not real sure. Twenty thousand gallons 1 7 probably. 1 8 Q. Uh-huh (indicating yes). 19 A. They would last several days. 2 0 Q. Okay. So you would turn them off and turn 2 1 them on as you needed it? As you all - 2 2 A. No, they stayed on. 2 3 Q. They just stayed on? 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036436 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 31 1 A. Uh-huh (indicating yes). 2 Q. And as they were -- essentially, it would get 3 sucked out as the vaporizer started to go 4 down and not be full because it was getting 5 drawn into the process? 6 A. Right. 7 Q. And then it would start to draw from the tank 8 cars? 9 A. Uh-huh (indicating yes). 1 0 Q. Okay. And what did you have in the way of 11 safety really when you're dealing with this? 12 A. With chlorine? 13 Q. Yeah. Anything? 14 MR . PECK : Object to the f o rm o 1 5 the que s tion. You can answer. 16 (By Mr. Ruth) You can answer. 17 MR . PECK : I just objected to the 1 8 form of the question. You can answer it. 1 9 THE WITNESS: Oh. Okay. 2 0 MR. WRIGHT: Just one of those 2 1 lawyer things. 2 2 THE WITNESS: Now, what was the 2 3 question again? 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036437 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 32 1 Q. (By Ms. Ruth) Were you wearing masks or 2 gloves or anything at that time? 3 A. Yeah. You're supposed to wear a high face 4 gas mask, and, of course, we had regular 5 leather gloves we wore. 6 Q. And you'd wear that as you went to go turn 7 the valve on ? 8 A . Right . 9 Q. And then would there be some -- any ongoing 1 0 measures taken -- once you guys turned it on 11 and walked away, you said it -- the valves 12 would remain open for four days, 1 3 approximately? 14 A. Maybe not . 1 5 Q. Maybe not. Give or take? 1 6 A. I don't know how many days, but it would last 17 for more than one day. Four cars would last, 18 you know -- according to how fast we -- how 1 9 many chlorinators were on and how fast we 2 0 used them. 2 1 Q. So would that area be blocked off at that 2 2 point? 2 3 A . No . 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036438 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 33 1 Q. No. Just people would know if they went over 2 there to dome their mask? 3 A. Right. Most time it was when we was 4 connecting and disconnecting cars. 5 Q. Are these -- do people still use these rail 6 tracks for plant area? 7 A. No, they're gone. 8 Q. They're gone? 9 A. We still have rail tracks, but those 1 0 particular ones are -11 Q. - - are gone ? 12 A. Yeah, been taken up. 1 3 Q. But y'all still use rail tracks to bring 14 other supplies? 15 A. Yeah. Each department's got rail cars that 1 6 feed them. 1 7 Q. Did those go when the aroclor department shut 18 down ? 1 9 A. I'm not sure. I don't know how long they 2 0 stayed after it's been closed down. Of 2 1 course we quit getting chlorine in because 2 2 that was the only department that used it. 2 3 Q. Wouldn't need it. Yeah. Okay. 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036439 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 34 1 Now, under the pumps -- and I'm 2 sorry. You said -- I'm just remembering real 3 quick -- you said you didn't remember when 4 you switched over to liquid chlorine as 5 opposed to just piping it over from - 6 A. -- from the department. Let me say this: 7 When the chlorine plant was here -8 Q. Actually, that would be useful to put that on 9 there. That was the chlorine plant, and so 1 0 now that's where you'd be piping it over - 11 A. Right. 12 Q. - - into there? 1 3 A. This old track that came, we did have two 14 chlorine cars if something happened to this 15 plant and they had to go down that we could 1 6 switch. 17 Q. Switch into that? 1 8 A. Yeah. Yes. But after it went down, these 1 9 two cars were not big enough, and they built 2 0 a new one. We could put eight cars. 2 1 Q. What happened to that over there? 2 2 A. I'm trying to think. That track may still be 23 in, but it's not used for anything like that 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888 -DEPO HARTOLDMON0036440 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 35 1 now . 2 Q. This is because I've never worked any place 3 industrial I think, but when you pull in - 4 okay . As the train pulls in - - and it's got 5 - - how many tank cars does it have on it at 6 this point? Train pulls in, does it back in? 7 Switch engine 8 MR . PECK : Switch engines. 9 MS . RUTH : Switch engines? 1 0 MR . PECK : As opposed to, you know, 11 it's not a whole locomotive. 1 2 THE WITNESS: They just came and 13 switched in. 14 Q. (By Ms. Ruth) Okay. And then do they take 1 5 these tanks off the car, or does the thing 1 6 just sit there braked? 1 7 A. When these four ran empty, we switched to 1 8 these four. 19 Q . Yeah. 2 0 A. Cut these off and disconnected them. And 2 1 then when the railroad come in, they would 2 2 pull these out and put four more in. 2 3 Q. Okay. 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1 - 8 0 0 - 8 8 8 -DEPO HARTOLDMON0036441 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 36 1 A. We'd hook them up and then wait until we 2 needed them, and then we'd open the valves 3 up. We just switched from one bang to 4 another. 5 Q. And do you know what happened to these two? 6 Did we finish answering that? 7 A. After this department went down, they quit 8 using these and built this new chlorine dock 9 and never used that one again. 1 0 Q. That dock just went away? 11 A . Right . 12 Q. And they got rid of the tanks that were over 13 there ? 14 A. Right. 1 5 Q. And like I said, you don't remember the year 1 6 they stopped piping it over? 1 7 A. I don't remember when the chlorine plant went 18 down. I sure don't. Not exactly. 1 9 Q. Do you think it was before or after the 2 0 expansion of the aroclor facility? 2 1 MR. PECK: Object to the form of 2 2 the que s tion. 23 THE WITNESS: The expansion? 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1 - 800-888 -DEPO HARTOLDMON0036442 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 37 1 Q. (By Ms. Ruth) Do you not remember the 2 expans ion? 3 A. Well, they put in a tank farm after I went 4 there and added some chlorinators. Is that 5 what you - - 6 Q. I think that's what -- yeah, what I'm 7 referring to. 8 A. No, I don't remember. 9 Q. Okay. Okay. 1 0 MS. RUTH: I was trying to take 11 notes on where I've already taking notes and 12 I realized I wasn't doing myself a service 1 3 because I couldn't read what I was writing 14 down. I'm counting on you. 15 Q. Now, we -- under these pumps, from what we've 16 heard at least early on, the pumps tended to 1 7 leak. Do you agree with that? 1 8 MR. PECK: Object to the form of 1 9 the question. You can answer. 2 0 I'm objecting because she's 2 1 characterizing someone else's testimony, so 2 2 I'm objecting to the form, of the question. 23 You can answer what you recall. 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036443 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 38 1 THE WITNESS: Yeah. Truthfully, I 2 don't remember the chlorinator pumps having 3 any problem much with leaking. 4 Q. (By Ms. Ruth) Oh, you don't? 5 A. No. We had some -- well, I won't get into 6 that, but on the chlorinators, I don't 7 remember those giving us any trouble. 8 Q. No? Do you remember using packing, something 9 called packing, around the pump to - 1 0 A. Not on the chlorinator. 11 Q. Not on the chlorinators. Where did you use 12 the packing? 13 A. They was on the aroclor stills. 14 Q. On the stills? 15 A. Uh-huh (indicating yes). 1 6 Q. Okay. We can actually move over to the -- do 1 7 you remember any drip pans or anything like 1 8 that under the pumps there? 1 9 MR. PECK: You mean on the 2 0 chlorinators ? 21 Q. (By Ms. Ruth) On the chlorinators. I'll try 2 2 and finish up with the chlorinator. That's 2 3 not to swear I won't think of a question 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036444 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 39 1 later about it, but - 2 A. I don't remember -3 Q. You don't remember if there were drip pans 4 under - 5 A. -- whether there were or not. It's been so 6 long ago. 7 Q. So finishes up here at the chlorinator, and 8 then y'all figure out -- take your sample and 9 figure out you've got what the product you 1 0 want ? 11 A. Uh-huh (indicating yes). 12 Q. And what happens next? 13 A. When the product is finished? 14 Q . Yeah. 15 A. It was pumped through what we call a blow 16 tank. 1 7 Q. Pumped through a blow tank? 18 A. Uh-huh (indicating yes) . 1 9 Q. How would it be pumped? Can you -- and where 2 0 do you put the blow tank? 2 1 A. The circulating line had another line coming 2 2 off -- I done forgot how it was valved up. 2 3 But anyhow, you would open a valve going this 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1 - 8 0 0 - 8 8 8 -DEPO HARTOLDMON0036445 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 40 1 way and close this one, and then this would 2 come out and go over and go in -- 3 Q. Kind of like a bypass idea? 4 A. Yeah, it'd block it from here, and then it'd 5 pump it empty and go in a blow tank. 6 Q. Okay. What is a blow tank? 7 A. It was used -- the blow tank was used -- it 8 had air blowing up through it, and it would 9 - - I believe it blowed the HCL off of it. 1 0 It's a type gas in it. 11 Q. Uh-huh (indicating yes) . 12 A . By - product . 13 Q. Could you just draw the blow tank? 14 A. It was just a tank. We had four of them for 1 5 products like this (indicating) . 1 6 And according to what product we was using in 1 7 this one, it would just come down and go into 1 8 it if it's the one we was using for this 1 9 product. 2 0 All right. Some more 2 1 may be making another product, and it'd go to 2 2 another blow tank. 2 3 Q . Were most dedicated to the type 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036446 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 41 1 of product they would make? 2 A. We had four that were. 3 Q. Four that were dedicated? 4 A. That was dedicated. 5 Q. And the other ones you'd switch off? 6 A. U h-h u h (indicating yes). 7 Q. What did you call the dedicated ones? 8 A. Well, I don't know if they had a name. Just 9 1242 . 1 0 Q. Was the one that you -- was that your biggest 11 produc t ? 1 2 A . Right. 13 Q. The product you needed to produce the most 1 4 of, I guess? 1 5 A. Right. 1 6 Q. So all four of those - - so - - but how many - - 1 7 you had six chlorinators total or eight or 1 8 how many? 1 9 A. On liquid, eight. 2 0 Q. Eight chlorinators total on the liquid? 2 1 A. Uh-huh (indicating yes) . 2 2 Q. Was that before or after the two new ones 23 were added? 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036447 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 42 1 MR. PECK: Object to the form of 2 the ques tion. 3 MS. RUTH: Well, he said there were 4 two new ones added. 5 MR. PECK: They weren't liquid. 6 They were solid. 7 Q. (By Ms. Ruth) So this is -- you had eight 8 9 A . Right. 1 0 Q. And you always had eight liquid chlorinators 11 from 1966 when you were there until 1972? 12 A . Right . 1 3 Q. So if you've got eight but you've got four 14 blow tanks, how do you hook up a chlorinator 1 5 to a blow tank? Is this a -- is this a 16 mobile -- I mean, can you unhook it or hook 1 7 it or - - 1 8 A. No, the piping was hard pipe. In other 1 9 words, there was no changing it. But you had 2 0 a series of valves. 2 1 The four dedicated chlorinators 2 2 went in the same blow tank all the time. 2 3 Q. Same one blow tank? 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1"800~~888 - DEPO HARTOLDMON0036448 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 43 1 A . Right. 2 Q. Okay. 3 A. And I can't remember the name of them. And 4 then the others just went to -- you could - 5 say this one was 1248, you could change the 6 piping on it and make it go over to another 7 one . 8 Q . I see. 9 A. Close valve here and open here. 1 0 Q. So it would have one main pipe off, and then 11 as it came over to the blow tank area, it 12 would finger off and attach to the other 1 3 three blow tanks - 14 A. Exactly. 15 Q. -- and you could decide which one it was 16 going to go to? 1 7 A. Right. 1 8 Q. And then what is flowing through the blow 1 9 tank? Is there - 2 0 A. It was blowing the air. 2 1 Q. Air? 22 A. Uh-huh (indicating yes). 2 3 Q. What's the source of the air? Is there -- 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036449 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 44 1 A. Compressors. 2 Q. Air compressors? 3 A. Uh-huh (indicating yes) . 4 Q. That are sitting below it? 5 A. No, it was in the main - - the plant has got 6 air compressors, furnaces in the whole plant, 7 three big ones. And every department there 8 comes off in one -9 Q. Is there a pipe then off the compressors? 1 0 A. Right. A pipe. 11 Q. And it goes into one of the blow tanks and 12 blows air on it? 13 A. Right. 14 Q. And then what comes out of the blow tank? 1 5 A. There was -- I may be wrong. It was blowing 1 6 HCL gas off, getting it off the product. 17 Q. And where would the - - and the H -- how would 1 8 you separate out the HCL gas from the - 1 9 A. It came up a pipe and went in a header and 2 0 went to the acid department. We made 2 1 hydrochloric acid. 2 2 Q . Okay. 2 3 A. It and off the chlorinators too. 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036450 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 45 1 Q. And then what happened with the product that 2 was left in the blow tank? 3 A. Okay. After you blow it so long -- I forgot 4 how long it was -- we pumped it to the 5 storage tank. 6 Q. You pumped it to a storage tank? 7 A. No, no, no. Wait a minute. It was a roof 8 tank. It fed the stills. 9 Q. Okay. So this went to a roof tank that then 1 0 fed the stills? 11 A. Uh-huh (indicating yes). 12 Q. So you call it a roof tank because it was 13 sitting on the roof of the 14 A. Yeah, it was, yes. 1 5 Q. So all four blow tanks in addition to what 1 6 they have coming into it -- coming into it, 1 7 they have these pipes from the chlorinators, 1 8 and then they have pipes from the compressor? 1 9 A. Uh-huh (indicating yes). 2 0 Q. And then coming out of it, they have pipes 2 1 that go to your acid department? 2 2 A. Acid department. 2 3 Q. And a pipe that goes to your roof tank? 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036451 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 46 1 A. Right. 2 Q. Is the pipe that goes to your roof tank then 3 coming off the bottom of the blow tank? 4 A . Right. 5 Q. Because the air stuff is concentrating up on 6 top, and then that's where you're blowing out 7 your - 8 A. Right. 9 Q. Okay. And then so it goes up to your roof 1 0 tank, and then -- you must have pipes all 11 over the place. 1 2 A. Oh, you wouldn't believe. 13 Q. Okay. I'm glad I didn't have to memorize 14 what was going where. So then you pump from 1 5 your roof tank to your stills; is that what 1 6 you said? 1 7 A. Right, right. 1 8 Q. All right. Okay. Now, just let me ask you 1 9 this: Periodically, did you need to clean 2 0 out either the chlorinator or the - 2 1 A. - - blow tank? 2 2 Q. Blow tank. 2 3 A. Not while I was there. 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036452 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 47 1 Q. You never cleaned them out? 2 A. (Witness shakes head.) 3 Q. You never cleaned out the pipes or flushed 4 the pipes with anything? 5 A. Huh-uh (indicating no). 6 Q. So we're now piping it into -- how many 7 stills did you -- first of all, where are the 8 stills in relation to your chlorinators? 9 A. These kind of sit outside the department, 1 0 main part of the department. You come out of 11 the control room, and the stills was inside 12 the building in the department. 13 Q. Okay. Do you want to just draw me a small 14 version where it doesn't actually have the 15 chlorinator in it, but you can show me like, 1 6 again, with a square and say chlorinators 17 over here, control room here, and that kind 1 8 of thing. 1 9 MR. PECK: Do you want it on a 2 0 separate piece of paper? 2 1 Q. (By Ms. Ruth) It's up to you. Do you want a 2 2 separate sheet here so you can draw it a 23 little bigger maybe? 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036453 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 48 1 Okay. I'm sorry. Some people are 2 visual learners and some are auditory, and I 3 think I tend toward visual. If I can see it, 4 I do a little better. 5 A. This is going to be the -- I don't remember 6 the number. Let's see. 7 Q. Is that actually happening outside the 8 building? 9 A. Yes, ma'am. These are out in the open. 1 0 Q. Do you have no roof over your head, or do you 11 have a roof over your head? 12 A. Not on these you didn't. 13 Q. So what happens if it's raining? 14 A. You just got wet. 15 Q. Okay. You'd work outside all day in the 16 rain? 1 7 A. Well, you wasn't out there that long. You'd 18 just go out and - - 1 9 Q. Oh, just go out and check it? 2 0 A. Yeah. Take a sample and switch a few valves, 2 1 and you're right back in there. 2 2 Q. Okay. 2 3 A. Put a raincoat on and, of course, you had to 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036454 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 49 1 wear a hard hat and stuff. 2 Q. Now, is that - 3 A. All this is under the roof here. 4 Q. The rest is under -- the rest is a regular 5 building? 6 A . Right . 7 Q. And I think that we've ask this before, but 8 I'm going to ask it again. Was that part out 9 there concreted? 10 A. Uh-huh (indicating yes). 11 Q. That's all concreted underneath? 1 2 A. These were up on the second level. Kind of 1 3 went down through the grating. You had a 14 ground level and a second level. 1 5 Q. A. second level. What does the second level 16 look like? Does it look like a big cement 1 7 block - 1 8 A. No, it's made out of grating, just "I" beams 1 9 with grating on them. 2 0 Q. Okay. 2 1 A. It wasn't a solid floor. I'm talking about 2 2 out here where these were at. 2 3 Q. And you'd just walk up a little metal 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036455 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 50 1 staircase thing and get up there? 2 A. Right. And had some stairs coming up. 3 Q. Okay. 4 A. This is control room. 5 Q. Do you go through the control room as soon as 6 you walk in the building? Is your first - - 7 your entry way is actually in the control 8 room? 9 A. It had two doors in and out or either way you 1 0 wanted it. And that's the roof. 11 Q. Okay. 12 MR. PECK: Just one roof tank? 13 THE WITNESS: I think we had two. 14 Two roof tanks. Number one and number two 15 roof tank, yeah. I don't remember which one 1 6 was whic h. 1 7 But the chlorinators would take the 1 8 continuous - - we'll just say it goes in this 1 9 blow tank. And then it went to the roof 2 0 tank, and then these are liquid 2 1 chlorinators -- I mean stills. 2 2 Q. (By Ms. Ruth) I guess it's sitting next to 2 3 it. That's why you just have a - - that's 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036456 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 51 1 why. Okay. 2 A. And - 3 Q. And then it pipes back through the roof? 4 A. Drops down and comes down top of the roof of 5 the department and goes to these ever what 6 stills you're running this particular product 7 on . 8 Usually it was this number three 9 still here we run 1242. 1 0 Q. 1242. Was 1242 what you focussed a lot of 11 your time on? 12 A. Well, we run all different - 13 Q. All different ones, but you focused -- 1242 14 got dedicated - - it got a dedicated blow 1 5 tank, and it got a dedicated still? 16 A. Right. 1 7 Q. Because it was your big product? 1 8 A. Right. 1 9 Q. Okay. All right. How does a still work? 2 0 Somebody likened it to moonshine to me, but I 2 1 never made that either, so I'm not a hundred 2 2 percent sure. 2 3 A. Well, I've never set up a moonshine still, 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036457 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 52 1 but you charge the still up to a certain 2 level. 3 Q. Charge it with heat or electricity? 4 A. No, the product. You put the product in it. 5 Q. Put in a certain amount? 6 A. We called it 1142 before it was distilled, 7 and after it was distilled, it was 1242. So 8 that would be 1142. 9 Q. Okay. 1 0 A. And - - 11 Q. What does a still look like? Is it big, 1 2 tall ? 13 A. It's just a big tank. 14 Q. Like six feet big, or ten feet big? 15 A. Bigger - - it would hold probably two thousand 1 6 galIons. 1 7 Q. Two thousand gallons. That's big. 1 8 A. Pretty good size, yeah. 1 9 Q. And it's made out of - - are they made out of 2 0 steel? 21 A. Yeah, it was metal. I guess it was steel. I 2 2 don't know. We've got some tanks out there 23 that's highly corrosive products. It's 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036458 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 53 1 titanium and different things made of 2 mate rial. 3 Q. Uh-huh (indicating yes). 4 A. We charge the still up -- let's see. And it 5 had an agitator. 6 Q. And an agitator is what? 7 A. Just like a big -- 8 Q. -- propeller? 9 A. Yeah, mixer. 1 0 Q . Mixer? 11 A. Like blades on a mixer. Has a motor that 12 turns it and keeps it mixing. 13 Q. And when you plug it in, is it run, like, by 14 1 5 A. Oh, yeah. Big motor. They're huge. 1 6 Q. Is there any heating that goes on? 17 A. Yeah, you have to have heat. I'm I trying to 18 think of how we got it in there. It's pumped 1 9 -- I forgot where it went - - how we heated 20 it. I was operator too. 2 1 Q. That's what you did. 2 2 A. Not long, but - - it had coils in it because 23 we had - - 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036459 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 54 1 Q. The still had coils or the piping? 2 A. Inside the still there was coils. I'm 3 embarrassed. I can't even remember now how 4 we heated the thing. 5 Q. Heat it from the outside, underneath it, or 6 did you heat it inside? 7 A. The solid aroclor still had a furnace, big 8 furnace - - 9 Q. Big furnace? 10 A. -- it went through. I'm trying to picture 11 how the liquid stills were. I forgot how we 12 heated it. 13 Q . But you did? 14 A. Yeah, we heated it. But the product was 1 5 circulated or agitated, and the vapors off of 1 6 it went up a column. And we had a receiver. 17 It went up as a vapor and went 18 through a condenser, and it came back as a 19 liquid down in this receiver. That's what -- 2 0 Q. That's a receiver it's called? 2 1 A. Right here. 2 2 Q. So is it sitting side by side each still? 2 3 A. Right. 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1 - 8 0 0 - 8 8 8 -DEPO HARTOLDMON0036460 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 55 1 Q. And each still's got it's own receiver? 2 A. Yeah, three receivers. And they all had a 3 condenser, and you'd head it up, and the 4 vapor would go up through the condenser and 5 condense into a liquid, back into a liquid -6 Q. Uh-huh (indicating yes). 7 A. -- and come back down into the receiver. Of 8 course the level would go down in the still 9 as the product came over. 1 0 Q. Uh-huh (indicating yes). Was there ever 11 anything left over in the still? 1 2 A. Yes. We call them bottoms. 13 Q. Bottoms. What would you do with bottoms? 14 A. Each still run so many batches according to 1 5 what product it was making. This, I think, 16 was ten batches. 1 7 After ten batches, you'd would run 1 8 it down as low as possible and draw it down 1 9 into metal drums. 2 0 Q. How do you draw it out? 2 1 A. It had a valve on the bottom of the still 22 that went over to a runway. 2 3 Q. Uh-huh (indicating yes). 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036461 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 56 1 A. Again, it had a valve there and a line run 2 over, and it had a track there. And you had 3 fifty-five-galIon drums on it, and you'd open 4 the valve up and fill that drum up. 5 Q. So your bottoms are liquid? 6 A. Uh-huh (indicating yes), they was liquid. 7 And you put a lid on it and push it down a 8 runway, and it went back over here in another 9 part of the building. 1 0 Q. So the drums were actually on a runway? 11 A . Right, right . 12 Q. You could just push them and they would go on 1 3 their way? 14 A. And you'd drum it until it run empty, until 15 the still was empty. 16 Q. Okay. 17 A. And then close it and recharge it. 1 8 Q. Would you ever actually clean out the still, 1 9 go in, you know, with a rag or hose or 2 0 something? 2 1 A . No . 22 Q. Nobody ever got in and actually cleaned it? 2 3 A. Not unless it was maintenance went in. 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036462 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 57 1 Q . But you never did? 2 A. No, operators never -- 3 Q. And you never saw anybody do it? 4 A . No . 5 Q. What happened to the drums of the bottoms? 6 A. Shipping department picked them up. I don't 7 really know what they done with them. I 8 c ou1dn't say. 9 Q. Okay. And then the stuff that went into the 1 0 receivers, what did you do with that? 11 A. That was finished product. It was pumped 12 through a filter and - - went through a filter 1 3 -- and outside, and we had a tank farm. Had 14 - - I don't know how many storage tanks. 1 5 Q. Was that tank farm always there? 1 6 A . No, ma'am. 1 7 Q. It wasn't? 1 8 A. No. We had some other storage tanks out here 1 9 on the side of the building when I first went 2 0 to aroclor department and went in them, but 2 1 they soon was too small, set outside the 2 2 building, and they built a new tank farm. 23 Q. Did they continue to use the two old ones, or 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888 -DEPO HARTOLDMON0036463 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 58 1 did they get rid of them? 2 A. They got rid of them. And it was filtered 3 and put in the storage tank. 4 Q. And that's part of that when we were talking 5 about what I characterize as an expansion? 6 A. (Witness nods head.) 7 Q. That's when they put in the new tank farm? 8 Do you know what year that was about? 9 A . Probably '68. 10 Q ' 6 8ish? 11 A . I'm not real sure. 12 Q Okay . Then from the tank farm, did they go 13 into drums to sell or -14 A. . Most of it went into the tank cars , rail 15 cars . 1 6 Q Okay . So that's one of these rail things 17 coming off here? 1 8 A . Uh-huh (indicating yes), spur comes in by 1 9 the - 2 0 Q Where is the tank farm? It's over here 2 1 somewhere ? 2 2 A . This is the aroclor department 7 2 3 Q . Yeah. 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036464 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 59 1 A. The tank farm sat, we'll say, right in here. 2 About twelve tanks. 3 Q. And some rail cars actually come over that 4 way too? 5 A. Yeah, rail line come in right beside the tank 6 farm. Still does. We still use it. 7 Q. Okay. You just put different products in it? 8 A. Yeah. 9 Q. Okay. 1 0 A. So they just unloaded into rail cars and ship 11 them out. 12 Q. The stuff's then piped -- presumably, it's 1 3 piped above ground and not underground? 14 A. Right. 1 5 Q. Okay. 1 6 A. All that's still - 1 7 Q. You just have now hooked it up to it? 1 8 A. Yeah, different process. 1 9 Q. This building's not there anymore; is that 2 0 right? 2 1 A . No, no. 2 2 Q. Now, let's switch gears, and let's switch 2 3 over from what went to the still. And let's 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1~800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036465 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 60 1 go back to your blow tank and talk about the 2 HCL off gas, the hydrochloric off gas, that 3 went and you made muriatic acid or 4 hydrochloric acid. 5 A. Right. 6 Q. What happens from the blow tank to - 7 A. -- the acid department? 8 Q. Actually, let me ask you one quick question. 9 I see that there's a filter coming off the 1 0 receiver. How does that filter work, do you 11 know ? 12 A. Yes. It had plates in there with pasteboard 13 filters in it, fiber, a little bigger than 14 that sheet of paper. 1 5 Q . So it's tiny? 16 A. (Witness nods head.) 17 Q. And each receiver's got its own filter? 1 8 A. No, I think we just had one filter. 19 Q. Okay. So even though it got piped to three 2 0 different - - it goes like this - - to three 2 1 different receivers, and then all that goes 2 2 into one pipe that's got the filter on it 2 3 that goes out to the tank farm, and then it 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036466 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 61 1 fingers again into the six or however many 2 tanks y'all have out there? 3 A. Right. Goes in a header, and you can put it 4 wherever - 5 Q. Okay. 6 A. But it had plates, and on each side of the 7 plate, it had this filter paper. I don't 8 know how many plates it was. Probably thirty 9 or forty plates. 1 0 Q. Okay. 11 A. And it would filter through there and come 12 out the other end and had all the impurities 13 out of it. 14 Q. Okay. Did any water or anything else run 1 5 through that? 1 6 A. (Witness shakes head.) 1 7 Q. Or it's just running through that filter, and 1 8 the filter's catching - 1 9 A. (Witness nods head.) 2 0 Q. Did you all periodically have to clean out 2 1 the filter? 2 2 A. Oh, yes. About every three batches we had to 23 change the paper. 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036467 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 62 1 Q. That's pretty often, is it not? How many 2 batches would you go through in a shift? 3 A. Probably one. 4 Q. Oh, just one in a shift? 5 A. (Witness nodshead.) 6 Q. So probably three times a day the filters got 7 changed? 8 A . Right. 9 Q. And you'd change about thirty filters? 1 0 A. Somewhere in there. I don't know how many. 11 Q. Twenty, forty, thirty, fifteen, somewhere in 12 there ? 1 3 A. Yeah. 14 Q. More than ten? 1 5 A . Yeah. 1 6 Q. Okay. And what would you do with the old 1 7 filters, with the actual -- because you've 18 got your metal plate; right? 1 9 A. Uh- huh (indicating yes). 2 0 Q. And then against that, you've got your 2 1 filter? 2 2 A. Uh-huh (indicating yes). 23 Q. So you pull out all your filters? 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036468 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 63 1 A. Uh-huh (indicating yes). 2 Q. Is that right? 3 A. The old ones, yeah, put new paper in. 4 Q. Put new ones in? 5 A . Right. 6 Q - At any point, do you hose down the me t a1 7 stuff? 8 A . No . 9 Q No. Just kind of let that be ? 1 0 A . You didn't want water i n it or around it 11 Q Is that process hot? 12 A . Yes, it was very hot. 13 Q It was hot ? 14 A . Yeah. It would burn you through your 1 5 gloves. You couldn't just hold onto those 16 plates for very long. 1 7 Q. So what did you do with the paper things? 1 8 A. We cleaned it in the metal drums, 1 9 fifty-five-gallon drums. 2 0 Q. You cleaned the filters in drums? 21 A. Into a drum. Yeah, you take the plates out 2 2 and took the papers out and set them back 2 3 in. When you got them all out, you put new 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036469 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 64 1 paper in. 2 Q. But you did it quickly because the metal was 3 hot ? 4 A . Oh, yeah. 5 Q . Okay. 6 A. And that drum -- we carried all that type 7 stuff downstairs, and shipping picked them 8 up. We kept them on pallets, and I don't -9 Q. You don't know if they went to the landfill 1 0 or just never asked? 11 A. I never did work in that department when they 12 was doing that. 13 Q. I never ask my trash man where he's taking my 14 trash, so I understand. 1 5 All right. Okay. Now, we can go 1 6 back to the blow tanks, I guess, and talk 1 7 about the hydrochloric acid that's coming 18 off . 1 9 A. Gas, HCL gas. 2 0 Q. Hydrochloric gas. 2 1 A. Yeah. The chlorinator also gives off HCL 2 2 gas . 23 Q. Oh, they're both giving off gas? 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-88 8 -DEPO HARTOLDMON0036470 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 65 A . Yes. Q. So you're getting some off gas from your chlorinator process; you're getting some off gas -- where is the bulk of your off gas coming from? A. Chlorinator. Q. The chlorinator? Oh, so the blow tank is sort of like an extra measure to - - A. Right. It may have just a little left on it. Q. Okay. A. Not a great amount. Q. So do you pipe your off gas from your and your blow tank to your acid A. Uh-huh (indicating yes). Q. And that's just a pipe off the top? A. Uh-huh (indicating yes), a line, probably about six-inch line. Q. And it's hard like we were talking about before? A. Right. Q. And it's fixed? A. Right. 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036471 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 66 Q. And then where is the acid activity happening in relation to - - A. - - in relation to this? Q. Yeah. A. It was out from the department. Q. Is this going to be outside? A. Uh-huh (indicating yes). Q. Okay. A. Outside. Q. Is it a cemented area? A. Uh-huh (indicating yes). Q. It's cemented. Is it roofed atall? A . No . Q. So again, you're just running out there real q u i c k. - - A. Uh-huh (indicating yes). Q. -- if it's raining or hot or any of those things? A. Yeah. It was piped to the acid department. Do you want to know what it does? Q. Yeah. I want to walk through the whole thing, but if you want to just show me - - A. (Witness drawing.) It came off the 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036472 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 67 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 chlorinators and blow tank and went to the acid department. Went in a -- I forgot what we called it now, but we'd mix water with it. Q. Where is your water source coming from? A. Just city water. Q. Do you keep it in a tank? A. No, it was just piped. Q. City water. A. And you control -- when that HCL and water mixed, it turned to acid. Q. Uh-huh (indicating yes) . A. And it went down through some carbon filters. Q. Okay. A. Back out - - Q. Where are you mixing them? Is it a big tank? A. Yes, it's a big column type thing. Q. Okay. A. Carbon in it. Q. And as soon as you add water to it, does it automatically become acid, or is there some period of time it needs to sit? A . No . Q. So it's a continuous process? 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036473 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 68 1 A. Right. 2 Q. Does there need to be any specific amount of 3 the HCL gas that you're pumping in? Does 4 there have to be a special relationship 5 between the amount of water and the amount of 6 HCL gas? 7 A. Yes, ma'am. 8 Q. Yeah. So do you try to measure that? So you 9 will turn valves off and on; is that right? 1 0 A. The way the process worked, the more water 11 you put in, the weaker the acid was, so we 12 made two different grades of acid. Twenty 1 3 degree and twenty-two degree. 14 Q. A twenty and - 1 5 A. Well, they call it degree -- and twenty-two. 16 Q. Which one is better, twenty-two? 1 7 A. The twenty-two was the strongest. 18 Q. Strongest. 1 9 A. So you used less water. You did the same 20 thing you did at the chlorinator. You catch 2 1 the sample in the hydrometer, and it read a 2 2 certain thing, and that's the way you 23 regulated it. 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800 - 888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036474 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 69 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 Q. Okay. So it didn't actually function -- you did do it in batches; is that right then? A. No, this was continuous. As long as the chlorinator's running, it was a continuous process. Q. Then how are you sampling? How are you sampling your product? Are you just standing there regularly sampling it? I guess what I'm saying is: How are you creating batches of twenty and batches of twenty-two? A. We made batches of twenty degree water white acid most of the time. Q. Most of the time. A. Ninety percent of the time. It went in the storage tanks. We had, I believe it was eight acid storage tanks. Q. So would you do it more like -- I don't know -- Monday through Friday we make twenty degree ? A. No, it was according to the sales. Q. Sales was dictating it? A. We just had maybe, like, one or two tanks that had twenty-two, and the other six had 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036475 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 70 1 twenty degree, which was what we sold the 2 mo s t of. 3 Q. So as one of your tanks that you'd store it 4 in before you'd send it off to sell started 5 to get empty, you'd go, we're getting low on 6 twenty-two or we're getting low on twenty - 7 A . Right. 8 Q. -- we need to make that. 9 A. Or foreman tell us we needed to run a day or 1 0 so to fill those tanks back up with 11 twenty-two. We'd regulate the water and make 12 it twenty-two and switch to those tanks and 1 3 fill them up, and then we'd go back to 14 twenty. 1 5 Q. How often would you need to sample to know 1 6 that you were on target? 1 7 A . Two or three t ime s a shift. 18 Q - Two or three times a shift. That shift's 1 9 eight hours ? 2 0 A. Uh-huh (indicating yes) . 2 1 Q. So every two or three hours? 2 2 A. Yeah, we went up and checked it. 2 3 Q. Go up and check it. What happens if -- what 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036476 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 71 1 would you do if you found out that it wasn't 2 working out, that you were not getting what 3 you were trying to get? 4 A. Well, if the acid was weak, lower than twenty 5 degrees, we'd cut the water back which would 6 put more HCL mixed with water and bring it up 7 and make it stronger. 8 If it was too strong, we'd add 9 water to it, open up on water until you get 1 0 it regulated down. 11 Q. Okay. 12 A. Long as the chlorinator's kept running, it 1 3 was the same - - now, they went out when the 14 acid plant went out. 1 5 Q. Did you ever have such a thing as a bad 1 6 batch? 1 7 A. Bad storage tank? It wasn't a batch because 1 8 it's just continuous. 19 Q. Okay. I'm sorry. Using the wrong 2 0 t e rmino1ogy. 2 1 A. You mean if we had a storage tank get out of 22 spec? I don't remember ever having one. I'd 2 3 just be guessing. 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-80Q-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036477 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 72 1 Q. Okay. Because I think I have something 2 here -- and I think it's actually been 3 entered in before, but maybe it hasn't - 4 that talks a little bit about this, and maybe 5 this will -- of course, now I'm going to have 6 to find it. 7 This is -- this is a document -- I 8 wonder if we have it in there already. 9 MONS 0 5 7 6 0 7 . 10 Yeah, we do. It's Plaintiffs' 11 Exhibit 21. 12 MR .. PECK: Can I just see that? 13 MS .. RUTH: Yeah. 14 Q Now I ''ve got to find my page again. Here we 1 5 go . 16 This is an audit on the HCL 17 department. Now, you're not named on this, 18 so there's not necessarily any reason you'd 19 ever seen it before. And it's from July of 2 0 19 6 9. 2 1 A. Uh-huh (indicating yes) . 2 2 Q. And right here under the -- you can turn to 23 it. I guess it's page three. If you want to 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036478 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 73 read that paragraph under -- it's the last paragraph HCL Department Audit. A. Uh-huh (indicating yes) . Q. And it talks about having some problems with, I guess I'll say off spec products since I keep calling it a bad batch. If you want to read that real quick. Take your time. You don't have to read it real quick. A. (Witness complies.) Q. Does that ring any bells for you? Do you remember ever having a problem with a product and sewering it? A. I may not have been running this job at that time. Q. You might not have been over there? A . No . Q. Because you rotated within the department, I gue s s ? A. Well, not on a regular basis. Like the last few years I was there, I was on aroclor stills . Q . '70 to ' 72 ? 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036479 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 74 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 A. Yeah. Somewhere along in there. You occasionally run this. Somebody's out on the next shift, you may double over and run this job here. So I don't remember that particular instance. Q. So you were never there at a time when - A. No. Q. - - you got off spec product and had to sewer it ? A. No, ma'am, I can't remember that. Q. Don't remember that - A . No . Q. -- problem at all? A . No . Q. Do you ever remember there being a filter system in place for this? Do you ever remember them ever putting a filter -- A . Yes,, we -- we filtered. Q - You did have a filter at the top of the tank? A . No , i t was after it came out of the source c o1umn. Q. After you added the water to it? A. Right. It run through a filter, had a sock 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036480 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 75 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 type filter made of some kind of fabric that filtered. MS. RUTH: Okay. We might want to make for the record that we were looking at Plaintiffs' Exhibit 21. Q. So do you remember what, if anything, you did do if you had off spec that wasn't - - for whatever reason it couldn't be remedied, there was no -- do you ever remember that happening? A. No, ma'am, I don't remember it happening. If you let a whole storage tank get out of spec, somebody's not watching their job. Q. They're getting in trouble? A. Yes. Because it's a pretty big storage tank. It takes a while to fill one up. I really don't remember ever having one out of spec. Q. Okay. And when it -- what would happen then is when it filled up - - now, was it continuously being piped too another storage, the storage tanks, you know, that you held it in before you sold it, or did you fill up 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888"DEPO HARTOLDMON0036481 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 76 that tank first or the column first, or how did that work? A. After it came - - I kind of got the whole department here. Q. Okay. A. It went through a column or -- I don't know what you called it -- absorption column or something when it mixed and came out and went through a filter. And we had, I believe, it was eight storage tanks. Q. Okay. A. And after it came out of the filter, it's kind of like aroclor, it went to certain tanks according to what the product was. Q. That's where you're actually doing your sampling is it's final - A. At the filter. Q. Oh, at the filter is where you're doing your samp1es ? A. Right. Where it leaves and goes to the storage tank. Q. So before it's actually going to a storage tank, you're doing your sampling? 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1 - 8 0 0 - 8 8 8 -DEPO HARTOLDMON0036482 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 77 1 A. Right. 2 Q. So if it's off spec, is there any way to stop 3 it from going to the storage tank, or is the 4 idea then to balance out whatever's gone to 5 the storage tank? So if it's gone too strong 6 to the storage tank, are you trying to send 7 weaker stuff? 8 A. Right. 9 Q. Okay. All right. And that whole area you 1 0 said was concreted, as well? 11 A. Uh-huh (indicating yes). 12 Q. Okay. Now, let's see. I guess, again, I'll 13 ask you this, but I'm not sure if you'll know 14 the answer. 1 5 Did you all ever clean out the 1 6 filter or the -- that column where all the 1 7 mixing is taking place? 1 8 A. Here? 1 9 Q. Yeah, did y'all ever clean that out? 2 0 A. We had to change the bags in the filter. 2 1 Q. You had to change the bags in the filters? 2 2 A. Yeah, they would get plugged, and you'd have 2 3 to put a new one. 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036483 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 78 Q. What would plug them, do you know? A. Carbon. This had carbon in it that the acid went through, and that carbon would eventually, you know, water white acid had to be just like water. It couldn't have anything in it. Q. Had to look like water? A. Yeah. Q. And did it look like water? A. Yeah. Q. Kind of creepy. A. Of course you put your finger in it, you knew it wasn't water. Q. Okay. And so then what would you do with the filters that you cleaned out? Did you replace -- did you actually put in a new filter? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And so you had to shut down operations to do that ? A. Yes, you just stopped. Q. And, I mean, would it take a long time? Five minutes? Ten minutes? 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036484 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 79 1 A. No, just five minutes. 2 Q. So you could back everything up in the pipe 3 that was coming because it wouldn't be backed 4 up for so long that it would really have an 5 affect on it? 6 A. Just take the top off, take that filter bag 7 out, put another one in, shut it, and close 8 it back up and go on. 9 Q. Would you do that once a shift, twice a 1 0 shift, once a week? 11 A. Well, it was often. I really don't remember. 12 Q. I'm sorry. Did you say as often as once a 13 week? 14 A. No, it was more often. 1 5 Q. More often than once a week, but you don't 16 know if it was every shift or not? 1 7 A. I don't remember. 1 8 Q. What did you do with the filter that you took 19 out? Would it go in another drum or - - 2 0 A. Yeah, we put everything in drums. Things 2 1 like that, put it in a metal drum. 2 2 Q. Okay. Now, did you -- were you ever involved 23 in washing down any of the aroclor 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1 - 8 0 0 - 8 8 8 -DEPO HARTOLDMON0036485 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 80 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 department, any cleanup, daily cleanup or anything? A. Yeah, we cleaned up -- not -- I wouldn't say daily. Q. Wasn't daily? How often do you think you cleaned? A. Well, not as often as they wanted us to. Probably once a week. Q. Once a week you'd clean? A . Yeah. Q. And what would cleaning entail? What would it usually mean to clean? A. According to what product you're talking about. Are you talking about liquid aroclor? Q. Okay. Let's do that first because actually I want to talk a little bit more about the solid and kind of how you made that too a little bit. So let's stick with the liquid part, and then we'll move over to solid. I know I told you I was going to take you to biphenyl, but I'm going to break aroclor into two sections. 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036486 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 81 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 A. We washed down, hose. Q . With a hose? A. Uh-huh (indicating yes). Q. Just like you were washing off your car kind of idea? A. Yeah. Q. At that point, do you shut everything down, shut everything off while you're hosing, or does it still work while you hose? A. It still works. Q. And just create an image for me if you will. Are y'all standing in there with a bunch of garden hoses sticking your finger over the nozzle to spray it and going like this (indicating)? A. Well, yeah. It's bigger than a garden hose. What we used in the chemical plant is bigger than a garden hose, but yeah, it's got a nozzle that you make the stream stronger and so forth, and that's what we use. Q. Are you hosing down both the chlorinator and blow tank area and the interior area where t he stills are ? 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036487 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 82 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 A. No, we didn't wash this up here around the stills. We didn't wash it down. Q. Nothing gets washed down in there? A. Not in here, no. Q. What do you do if you have a leak up there? A. Now, we're up on the second floor. Q. Yeah, you're not allowed to have a leak up there? A. You don't have a leak up there. Q. No such thing as a leak? Not ever in all your time there? A. Not that I know of. Around your filter here sometimes you might get a little -- Q. A little something? A. Yeah, when you cleaned the filter, but we'd sand it. We wouldn't put water on it. Q. I'm sorry. Sand or water or sand? A. No, just sand. Q . Because you don't want water in the filter or near the filter? A . No . Q. Okay. A. If we had a little spill, we'd put sand and 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036488 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 83 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 shovel it up and put it in the same drum we had the filter papers in. Q. What would you do with the leftover sand? Because you can't get everything, obviously. You just sweep it up? A. Yeah, right. Q. Okay. But none of your stills - - you never had - - as long as you remember, none of those pipes ever leaked? I mean, because you've got a lot of pipes. None of your - - A. On the second floor we're talking about? Q. Right. I'm just talking second floor, and then we'll move back down to the other area. A. No, not on second floor. anything, no. I don't remember Q. Okay. MR. PECK: Is there a question? Q. (By Ms. Ruth) I'm sorry. I wanted to go back down there to your downstairs, to the outside area. That's where you're hosing down ? A. Yeah. Q. Okay. And you hose it down with -- do you 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036489 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 84 1 use hot water, cold water, doesn't matt e r ? 2 A . Hot water. 3 Q - Hot wat e r. 4 A . Well , it's a mixture of st earn and cold water, 5 and it makes it warm. 6 Q. Where do you get your steam from? Does steam 7 come from a hose too? 8 Are you getting ready for a break? 9 A. No. You had a header where steam and water 1 0 came together, and you cracked the valves. 11 And when it came out, you just feel of it and 12 regulate until the water got warm. Steam 13 would mix with the water. 14 Q. Okay. So, again, this is more pipes. 15 A. Right. 1 6 Q. You've got two hard pipes coming together 17 like this. One is piping regular water; the 1 8 other is piping steam, and there's one - 1 9 A. What they call a mixer on it. 20 Q. Okay. What is a mixer? Does a mixer 2 1 actually look like anything, or is there just 22 this place where the two converge? 2 3 A. It's just where it converges. We still use 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036490 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 85 1 that type thing over there now. 2 Q. And then you just hook a hose on it? 3 A. Uh-huh (indicating yes). 4 Q. Okay. So is there only one hose that's used? 5 I mean, so is it only one person can do the 6 actual hosing down? 7 A. Right. We may have different steams, mixing 8 stations, throughout the department, but one 9 won't reach the whole department. 1 0 Q. Okay. So where do you have -- where around 11 there might you have different stations, 12 mixing stations? Where around the outside 1 3 there? 14 Would there be three or four or 1 5 six? 1 6 A. This side of the building. You'd have one 17 maybe right here (indicating) - - 1 8 Q. Okay. 1 9 A. -- on this side of the building. It'd reach 20 all in under here. Same way over here on the 2 1 bottom floor, you'd have one. 2 2 This was a big building that had 23 another department that used part of it. I 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036491 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 86 1 don't know what all they had down here. 2 Q. What's on the bottom floor that -- the stills 3 are on the second floor; right? What's on 4 the first floor? 5 A. They stick through the floor. 6 Q. Okay. 7 A. Just the tops of them is on the second floor; 8 the bottom - - 9 Q. Where is the filter and all that and the 1 0 receivers ? 11 A. All this is on the second floor. 1 2 Q. Okay. 13 A. Control room's on the second floor. 1 4 Q. So does the receiver stick through to the 15 bottom floor also? 1 6 A. Yes. 1 7 Q. And the filter thing is only upstairs? 1 8 A. Uh-huh (indicating yes). 1 9 Q. So it's actually piped out from upstairs to 2 0 the tanks ? 2 1 A. Uh-huh (indicating yes). 2 2 Q. So do you hose down the inside of -- the 2 3 first floor of the inside building, the 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036492 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 87 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 bottom part where the still -- not the upstairs part, not the second floor where you told me there's no leaks, but the downstairs part ? A. Yeah. MR. PECK: Did you hose that down is what she's asking? THE WITNESS: Yeah. On the bottom floor, I don't remember. Probably did. Most of the time -- any time we had a spill down there or if we got a product -- happened to get it on the floor, we'd put sand on it mostly. Q. (By Ms. Ruth) Would that ever happen downstairs? I mean, I guess where did it happen most often? If you were going to have a leak in the inside - - if you were going to have a spill or leak on the inside of the building, it's more like -- is it more likely to happen downstairs? A. Yeah. Q. So that's why you were telling me upstairs was pristine ? 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036493 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 88 1 A . Right. 2 Q. As pristine as you can have it? 3 A. Right. 4 Q. So your downstairs -- and why -- why would 5 you -- if you were going to have a spill 6 downstairs, why would you have it? 7 A. Well, I wouldn't say spill. 8 Q. Is it a spill or a leak? 9 A. Leak. 1 0 Q. It's gonna be a leak more than a spill. 11 Okay. What would be the cause of something 12 like that ? 1 3 A. Pump seal leaking or something. 14 Q. Pump seal leak. Okay. So now I'm getting - - 1 5 I'm a little confused because - 1 6 A. These have pumps too. 1 7 Q. They have pumps too? 18 A. You got to pump to the storage tank. 1 9 Q. Okay. So the pumps are at the bottom part of 2 0 it ? 21 A. (Witness nods head.) And we had - -under 2 2 them was little drain pans under the pumps, 2 3 not under the motor, but under the actual 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036494 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 89 pump part. Q. And is this on the A. Uh-huh (indicating yes), receiver pump. Anything that leaked dripped out around the shaft on the pump. It run out in a little catch pan. Q. Drip pan. A. Uh-huh (indicating yes). Q. So what I was thinking was happening on the chlorinator in all likelihood was actually what was happening on the receiver. What I was describing earlier about potentially having happened on the chlorinator and you said I have no memory of there being leaks from pumps on the A . That's true. Q. Maybe what I was thinking of is leaks that were happening over here on the receiver. Now, were they relatively common or at least early on? A. Well, you know, you may -- when you're pumping one out, you may have a drip, you 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036495 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 90 1 know, coming out. 2 If it got bad, we'd have 3 maintenance come over and put a new seal in 4 it. Something like that. 5 Q. Do you remember did you use packing on those 6 pump s ? 7 A. They used mechanical seals on them. Not what 8 you call packing. 9 Q. Okay. Mechanical seals. 1 0 A. Like I say, maintenance did it. We didn't do 11 anything to those type pumps. 1 2 Q. So if you'd get a leak, and a leak normally 1 3 went into a drip pan, did the drip pan 14 occasionally overflow or - - 1 5 A. Well, the drip pan run into a bucket. We 1 6 kept, I guess, two and a half gallon bucket, 1 7 and it run in that bucket. 1 8 Q. Okay. So it's kind of like on an angle? 1 9 A . Right. 2 0 Q. Would it look like if you were painting a 2 1 house and you got the paint in the - - 2 2 A. A little pan. 2 3 Q. Yeah, like that? 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036496 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 91 1 A. You got it. 2 Q. All right. I'm getting down right 3 technical. And it goes into - 4 A. Little bigger, but that's basically it. 5 Q. And then it's running into your -- and so 6 occasionally, I guess, it may splish splash 7 around a little, and that's what would end up 8 on the floor, or is that not a source for 9 floor leaks ? 1 0 A. Well, no. Like I say, it drips. Now, if a 11 seal -- with a pump, you're liable to have 12 anything happen, you know, mechanically. If 13 the seal suddenly went out, it might sling a 14 little around. 15 Q. Okay. 1 6 A. Ordinarily, it was just a drip. 1 7 Q. And then someone is there all the time in the 18 still room? Generally is - 1 9 A . Oh, yeah. 2 0 Q. -- one of the operators -- their job? 2 1 A. Yeah, we're through there all the time. 2 2 Q. And how many operators are in your still 2 3 room - - 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036497 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 92 1 A. Two . 2 Q. -- for one shift? Two. Do you normally have 3 one on each floor, or are y'all usually 4 traveling together? 5 A. According to what is going on. One operator 6 had one job. He may -- one of them may be 7 downstairs part of the time; one upstairs. 8 We work together on that job. Two-man job. 9 Q. So if a seal breaks, you're going to see it 1 0 pretty quickly? 11 A. Oh, yeah. We also had laborers working down 1 2 there continually. 1 3 Q. Laborers, yeah. 14 A. They was either drumming or bagging biphenyl. 1 5 Q. Bagging or drumming. So that's moving over. 1 6 So, I guess, what we're naturally moving into 1 7 is a discussion about your solid aroclor 1 8 because that's -- I'm assuming that's going 1 9 on downstairs near the stills? 2 0 A. Right . 21 MR. PECK: Before we go - 22 MS. RUTH: Do you want to take a 2 3 break? 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036498 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 93 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 MR. PECK: Yeah. (Short recess.) Q. (By Ms. Ruth) Before -- I wanted to get these marked in, and I realized in that we haven't marked them real well, so if we could just real quick -- and, you know, if you'll okay it, I'll just write these. And this is liquid chlorine tank cars. MR. PECK: Do you want to call that something while we're doing it? MS. RUTH: Yeah, I'll call it the plant - - COURT REPORTER: It's 23. MS. RUTH: Oh, I'm sorry. That's what you meant. MR. PECK: That's okay too. MS. RUTH: Liquid tank cars, and then - - and we're going to say starting approximately 1968. Q. Is that what you said? A . '69. MR. PECK: I don't think he remembered. 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036499 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 94 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 Q. (By Ms. Ruth) Starting approximately -- and we'll leave it '68 to '69. Would you rather it just be '69? I want it to reflect what you'd rather. A. I don't know. Too long ago for me to remember. Q. Prior to that, this is supposed to be the - A. -- chlorine plant. Q. Chlorine department. Well, even after that, it's the chlorine -- well, no, I guess -- so prior to that, we had this was chlorine gas pipe? A. Uh-huh (indicating yes). Q. And that's going to be prior to? MR. PECK: Just say prior to tank cars . Q. (By Ms. Ruth) Prior to tank cars. Then this is your tank farm? A. Right. Q. Little fancy art work there railroad tracks. I'm sorry. This was the lab, I think? A. Yeah, that was at that time. Q. At that time. This was aroclor niran. This 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036500 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 95 1 is old chlorine gas, backup chlorine liquid, 2 whatever? 3 A. Cars, right. 4 MR. PECK: Old tank cars. 5 Q. (By Ms. Ruth) Old chlorine tank cars. Okay. 6 And these were backup. I think it's going to 7 be that anyway, but just for me, backup to 8 point pipe gas pipe. 9 MS. RUTH: Okay. All right. I 1 0 don't know what number this is. 11 COURT REPORTER: It will be 23. 12 MS. RUTH: 23. 13 14 (Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 23 was 1 5 marked for identification and 1 6 copy of same is attached 1 7 hereto.) 18 Q. I think we did a better job with this one, 19 although it's a little not totally - - these 2 0 are old holding tanks; right, and they 2 1 were - - 2 2 A. Yeah, or storage tanks. 2 3 Q. Storage. I want it to be called what it is. 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036501 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 96 1 Storage. 2 MR. PECK: Now she's messing up 3 your drawing. 4 Q. (By Ms. Ruth) I know with my less than 5 legible handwriting. 6 These are our blow tanks, 7 chlorinators. I know everybody else knows 8 this, but I want to make a notation for 9 myself that it's outside and concreted. 10 All right. Acid department. Now, 11 this is leaving a little bit to be desired, 12 but these little circle things are - 13 A. - - storage tanks. 1 4 Q Storage tanks. 1 5 A . Yeah. 16 Q - This thing is our carbon filter? 1 7 A. . Yeah, it's the c o1umn. 1 8 Q This is the column; right, and this is the - 1 9 or which one i s the filiter, and which one's 2 0 the column? 2 1 A . Well, it's not really drawed the way it - - it 22 went into this column then out. We'll say 2 3 this is the filter. 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-8QO-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036502 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 97 1 Q. Okay. You could make that an arrow so that 2 -- into the pipe, yeah, and out. 3 A. (Witness complies.) 4 MR. PECK: Make sure you have an 5 arrow showing how it flowed. 6 Q. (By Ms. Ruth) Both work. And then it came 7 out through the filter? 8 A . Yeah. 9 Q. Okay. And then out to the storage tanks. 1 0 A. Okay. 11 Q. Kind of tiny. Once we copy it, it will be 12 even worse, but that's all right. 13 Do another little arrow. Acid 14 department. It will work. 15 A. It was very simple, acid department. Wasn't 1 6 anything to it. 17 Q. Aroclor. I think we've got a bunch of hand 1 8 drawings of this. 19 MR. PECK: And that's Plaintiffs' 2 0 Exhibit 24, your aroclor map. 21 MS. RUTH: Uh-huh (indicating yes). 22 2 3 (Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 24 was 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036503 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 98 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 marked for identification and copy of same is attached hereto . ) Q. And I don't know that we need that one because I think this one captures - - unless you'd like to see that memorialized and like to know that lives on. A. That's just hand scratching. Q. Okay. So we'll just leave these two that way. Now, we may want to start with a -- why don't you mark on here just where the solid aroclor section took place? Mark it on Plaintiffs' Exhibit 24. And then I think we might want to do a separate drawing because I don't know anything about that at all, really. A. You want me to do it separate? Q. Yeah, but just in here, show where it's going to be, and then we'll kind of blow it up on here. But where was it taking place, the solid aroclor production? MR. PECK: The solid aroclor stills . 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036504 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 99 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 THE WITNESS: They were right here. Q. (By Ms. Ruth) Okay. You want to - A. Do you want me to draw it on there? Q. Yeah, draw the stills, and just label that they're -- or just even put the little stills in there and then solid -- label them somehow solid aroclor stills. MR. PECK: You need to say solid. Q. (By Ms. Ruth) Solid will work, yeah. A. Later we had a bigger one, and it was solid. Q. Do you want to put that that came later? Just put parenthetically under it that it came -- when later, do you know when later? A. Not right off. I don't remember. Q. Okay. And then where was your drumming and flaking? A. It was downstairs. Q. Downstairs? A. Well, let me back up. The flaker was upstairs. Q. Upstairs? A. Yes. Where we actually flaked the solid aroclor. It went into a chute, a hopper 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036505 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 10 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 downstairs, and they bagged it out on the bottom floor. Q. You know what, why don't we first describe the process on here because I think it would be easier to just make little labels. Right now, you'll make a little label, and I'll be drawn to want to ask you what that means, and I won't need to ask you what it means if we -- if you describe to me how y'all made solid aroclor. And I believe that that's -- is 5460 your solid aroclor product? Which are your solid aroclor? A. In the chlorinator, it was 5060, and after it was distilled, it became 5460. That's the way we distinguish -- Q. The distilling is what brought you to your final product? A. Right. Q. Do you know what the - - do you know what the 50 and the 54 stood for or the 11 and the 12 stood for or whether just - - do you know if it was just a way if distinguishing or if it 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036506 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 10 1 1 actually held any meaning? 2 A. That, I couldn't tell you. 3 Q. Couldn't tell me. 4 A. It was always that when I went to work there, 5 and I don't know what it meant. I did know 6 the different numbers meant raw product and 7 chlorinator, and then finished product always 8 had a -- liquid was 12 is solid was 54. 9 Q. Okay. 1 0 A. Okay. You want what now? 11 Q. I kind of want to know how it worked. Did 1 2 you start out using these - - I mean, did you 13 start out here? Did you start out - 14 A. No, no, no. This is all liquid here. 1 5 Q. Okay. 1 6 A. We had solid chlorinators. 17 Q. So it's an entirely different process from 1 8 your liquid aroclor? 1 9 A . Right. 2 0 Q. Perfect. Well then, let's just start from, 2 1 scratch and talk about - - 2 2 A. The best I can remember. 2 3 Q. That's what Adam wants. Adam wants to start 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036507 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 102 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 from scratch. He's on the edge of his seat. A . Okay. Chlorinators. It had a -- let me think. (Witness drawing.) Q So you had two chlorinators for that? A . Uh-huh (indicating yes). Q And were they batch or continuous? A . Batch. Q They're batch. Real quick, going back to the liquid chlorinators. Are these batch or continuous? A . These are batch; these are continuous. Q - Okay. So the four on the top of the drawing - - A . Right. Q - - are batch? A . Batch, uh-huh (indicating yes). Q And then the four on the bottom of your chlorinator drawing are continuous? A . Uh-huh (indicating yes). Q So you're four and four. And you said you had continuous for your solid? A . No, it was batch. Q I'm sorry. Batch. 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036508 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 10 3 A. They were batch. Batch. We'd charge them up and finish them and them pump them empty and recharge. Q . So two bat ch? A. Yeah. Q. How long -- how long would a batch take to cook? A . In the chlorinator? Q Yeah, for the solid. A . I have no - Q - Would you finish it in a shift ? A . Yeah. Q You would finish it in a shift? A . Yeah, I'm pretty sure we ' d finish it in a shift, but now I don ' t remember - Q You don't remember if you got through one two batches in a shift? A. See, this one operator was running all of this. Q. One operator ran all of the liquid aroclor and the solid? A. Yes. Q. One operator? 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036509 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 104 A. Yes. Q. Okay. A. And if you got lucky and had time to eat lunch, okay; if you didn't -- Q. I bet. I bet. A. I don't remember. Q. Except you said you had two operators for the stills . A. Uh-huh (indicating yes). Q. You're saying you had one operator for blow tank part for both the solid and the liquid? A. Uh-huh (indicating yes). Q. But the still part is separate? A. Still was separate. Q. Okay. A. The operator for these run just the stills and the solid stills. He didn't have anything to do with the chlorinator. Q. Okay. So you have a still operator and a chlorinator operator? A. Right. There was two -- Q. But two still operators because -- 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036510 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 10 5 1 A. Because you was running a flaker and 2 different other little jobs, and one man just 3 didn't have time to - - 4 MR. PECK: That's a solid aroclor 5 operator and liquid aroclor operator on the 6 stills? 7 THE WITNESS: No, it was all mixed. 8 MR. PECK: But you just had two of 9 them? 10 THE WITNESS: Yeah, just had two of 11 them. 12 MR. PECK: Sorry. It was getting 1 3 confusing. 14 THE WITNESS: Maybe some of these 15 other guys remember better than I can. You 16 got one tomorrow that's pretty good. Let's 17 see. Okay. 18 Q. (By Ms. Ruth) So you've got two batch 19 chlorinators for the solid and a blow tank - - 2 0 one blow tank for the solid? 2 1 A. Yeah. 2 2 Q. Okay. 2 3 A. Now, these was tied together, and it came to 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1 - 8 0 0 - 8 8 8 -DEPO HARTOLDMON0036511 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 10 6 1 the blow tanks. 2 Q. Okay. 3 A. And we had still here, and later we had a - 4 there was number four still. 5 Q. You had -- you called it the number four 6 still? 7 A. Right. 8 Q. Because you had three stills for your 9 1iquid - 1 0 A. Right . 11 Q. - - and so just when you moved -- you only - 12 initially, I guess, you only had one still 13 then for your solid? 14 A . Right . 15 Q. You later added another still? 16 A. Right. We added number five. 17 Q. Do you know when y'all added number five? 18 Would this be - 1 9 A. Again, these dates, I can't remember. 2 0 Q. Would this be about the same time maybe you 2 1 put in the tank farm and switched over to the 2 2 tank cars -- liquid tank cars for chlorine? 23 I mean, was all that happening about the same 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036512 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 107 1 time, do you know? 2 A. I really don't remember. 3 Q. You just don't remember? 4 A. I don't - - I don't think they all went in the 5 same time . 6 Q . No ? 7 A. I'm not for sure. 8 We had number five still, and it 9 was -- all this was solid. 1 0 Q. Do you think it was at least closer, pretty 11 close to when they ultimately shut it down? 1 2 A. No, this was a few years before. 13 Q. Few years before? 14 A. Yeah. 15 Q. Maybe -- again, are we thinking '68, '69? 1 6 A. '69, '70, yes, ma'am. 17 Q. Okay. Do you want to put that 1 8 parenthetically under number five just so we 19 realize it wasn't there? Came around '69 or 2 0 '70. 2 1 A. (Witness complies.) 22 Q. Did you ever add anymore blow tanks? 2 3 A . No . 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036513 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 10 8 1 Q Everything else stayed the same 7 2 A , Right. 3 Q Okay. So this is your initial process? This 4 is prior to drumming and flaking; i s that 5 right? 6 A . Uh-huh (indicating yes). 7 Q . So you - - 8 A . All this was flaked. 9 Q - Once it came out of the still, i t was flaked? 1 0 A . Right. 11 Q Okay. But we start out -- what goes out into 12 your chlorinators here? 1 3 A . Santowax. 14 Q Santowax. Where does santowax come from. do 1 5 you know? 1 6 A . Biphenyl department. 1 7 Q Biphenyl department? 1 8 A . Uh-huh (indicating yes). 1 9 Q . So do you want to put a little arrow saying 2 0 santowax goes in there? 2 1 A . (Witness complies.) 2 2 Q That came from your biphenyl, and what else 23 goes in there ? 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036514 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 10 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 A. That's it . Q. And chlorine? A. Chlorine . Q. Okay. A. Chlorine. These was big chlorinators. Q. Were they bigger than the ones you use for 1iquid? A. Oh, yeah, yeah, way bigger. Q. Way bigger. Like how big are these about, the liquid ones? Six feet? Ten feet? A. No, they're bigger than that. They wasn't all that big around, but they was tall. Q. Maybe six feet around? A. And we didn't fill them -- yeah, something like that. Six, seven. Q. We're going to go up two stories, three stories? A. Bottom of them was down here and went up. Q. One story, like, sixteen feet? A. Fifteen feet. MR. PECK: We're talking about the liquid ones now? Q. (By Ms. Ruth) Liquid ones are that? 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036515 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 110 1 A . Yeah. 2 Q. And so how much bigger than that would you 3 say the solid ones are? 4 A. If this one held a thousand gallons, this one 5 would probably hold three or four thousand. 6 Q. So if liquid held a thousand, the solid would 7 hold three. Three to four times as big. Is 8 it much wider also? 9 A . Yes. 1 0 Q. I mean, it's proportionately bigger then? 11 A. Right, yeah. But it was charged up. 1 2 Q. Charged up means? 13 A. Charging in with Santowax. 14 Q. Putting in the santowax? 15 A. Putting the product in. Then you chlorinate 1 6 it . 1 7 Q. Uh-huh (indicating yes). 1 8 A. When it finished, pump it in the blow tank 1 9 just like the -- in other words, it blows a 2 0 certain length of time. 2 1 Q. Now, are you taking any off gas off of this 2 2 one too? 2 3 A. Yes, ma'am. 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036516 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 111 1 Q. Is that off gas also getting pumped to 2 your - - 3 A. Everything goes to HCL department or acid 4 department. 5 Q. Is there a filter coming off of that, off of 6 the -- and I should have asked you that for 7 the liquid chlorinator too -- is there a 8 filter coming off the chlorinators for the 9 gas? 1 0 A. No, ma'am. 11 Q. No. Okay. All right. So that stuff's 12 getting pumped -- your HCL is getting pumped 13 off of there? 14 A. U h-h u h (indicating yes). 1 5 Q. And it's getting pumped off your blow tank? 16 A. Right. All this is going to the department. 17 Q. Okay. Would you -- I'm sorry to make you 1 8 keep drawing it all, but just do your pipe 1 9 things and have a little HCL - - to HCL 2 0 department or something. 2 1 If you want, I can - - 22 MR. PECK: Put to HCL. 23 Q. (By Ms. Ruth) That works. 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036517 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 112 1 A. This is the same way. 2 Q. And then the blow tank is also the same? 3 A . Right. 4 Q. And then we go to number four still. 5 A. Either. We can go to either. 6 Q. Number four, number five. And you have 7 number four here. On our overview picture, 8 Plaintiffs' Exhibit 24, you have shown us the 9 number four still, and then this is -- what's 1 0 next to it is the number five still? 11 A. Uh-huh (indicating yes). 12 Q. Okay. Go back to your - 13 A. We charge this up to a certain level, and - - 14 Q. Does your blow tank also act as a hold tank 15 in some way, or is this also going to -- see 1 6 how this one -- I mean, your liquid you went 17 from your blow tank actually to the roof 18 tanks; right - 1 9 A . Yeah. 2 0 Q. -- before you went into the still, so your 2 1 roof tank acted as a hold tank so you didn't 2 2 overwhelm your still? 2 3 A. Right. 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036518 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 113 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 Q. Is there a hold tank for your solid aroclor? A. I don't remember. I think when you finished a batch here, best I remember, it went to the blow tank; it blew a while, and then you charged the still with it. We didn't have a storage tank or another tank to put it in. Q. Maybe it was moving through the process slow enough that your blow tank didn't get backed up ? A. Right. You could stop these. If you was having trouble with stills, the product was backing up, you stopped your chlorinators and stopped the process. Q. Okay. A. Kind of hard to do some of these continuous. But we charged the stills up, and then it circulated out of here through a furnace heated up back through a condenser. Q. Okay. Will you draw that because I guess I'm having a little trouble imagining that? You've got - - you first are pushing it into your still -- 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036519 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 114 1 A. Uh-huh (indicating yes). 2 Q. -- and then it gets pumped right back out of 3 the still through a furnace; is that right? 4 A . Right. 5 Q. And the furnace - 6 A . Gas furnace. 7 Q. Gas furnace. Natural gas furnace? 8 A. Uh--huh (indicating yes). 9 Q. Do you want to draw a little depiction of 1 0 that ? 11 A. Each one had its own furnace. 12 Q. Each still had its own furnace? 13 A. Yeah. (Witness drawing.) 14 Q. So you've got a pump on the base of your 15 still? 16 A. This has coils. I don't know how to draw 17 coils. 1 8 Q. Coils through your furnace? 1 9 A. Yes, you know, circulating. 2 0 Q. And that's what's -- and the aroclor is going 2 1 through - - 22 A. -- through the coils. And fire is on -- of 23 course is coming up through here. It's got a 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036520 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 115 burner. Q. And are you pumping in your natural gas, or is it attached to a tank? A. No, it's natural gas. Q. Getting pumped in? A. It's going to the furnace and back over circulating back to the still. Q. Now, is that process continuous, or does the aroclor only get heated one time per batch? A. Per batch when you charge it up -- Q . Yeah. A. -- you start it circulating, start your furnace, heat it up, and then at a certain temperature, it will start distilling over, go to a vapor, come up, and go through a condenser again. Q. Okay. So it continues to go through the furnace until it vaporizes? A. Uh-huh (indicating yes). Q. Okay. A. And then -- let's see. I'm trying to picture the tank it went to. It went into a receiver, which is another tank. 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1 - 8 0 0 ~ 8 8 8 -DEPO HARTOLDMON0036521 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 116 1 Q. Okay. Did each still have its own receiver 2 again? 3 A. Right. 4 Q. Okay. And again, did you have a filter 5 between the still and the receiver? 6 A. No, we didn't filter solid aroclor. 7 Q. Okay. Didn't need to filter since it was 8 solid? 9 A . No . 1 0 Q. Okay. 11 A. Let's see. 1 2 Q. That's the condenser? 1 3 A. Yeah. 14 Q. So you - - it vaporizes into the condenser; 1 5 the condenser condenses it and then sticks it 1 6 into the receiver? 1 7 A. Yeah. It's a vapor, and then it goes back to 1 8 -- it comes back in the receiver. 1 9 Q. Okay. 2 0 A. And from there, it went to the flaking tank. 2 1 Q. Okay. It went to a flaking tank? 2 2 A. Uh-huh (indicating yes), or flaker. I don't 23 believe it went to a tank. I believe it just 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036522 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 117 1 went -- we pumped it out of here and had a 2 control valve on the flaker -- 3 Q. What's the consistency like now of a solid 4 aroclor? 5 A. It's hot. You got to keep it hot or it will 6 go to solid. Just as soon as it cools 7 down - - 8 Q. Is it real thick? 9 A. Yes. 1 0 Q. Thick like -- what would be a similar, wax, 11 molasses? 12 MR. PECK: Went solid. 13 THE WITNESS: Like a block of ice 14 only it's hot. You know, when it cools 15 down - - 16 Q. (By Ms. Ruth) I mean when it's hot? 1 7 A. That's what it looks like, you know. It's 1 8 just solid. 19 Q. It's real -- it's real solid? It's hard like 2 0 a table hard? 2 1 A. Right. 2 2 Q. Okay. 23 MR. PECK: Not when it's hot. 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1 - 8 0 0 - 8 8 8 -DEPO HARTOLDMON0036523 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 118 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 MS. RUTH: Right, right. Okay. THE WITNESS: But we pumped the flaker which had a little pan under it with a drum that turned with a motor. Q. (By Ms. Ruth) Now, where are your flakers? Let's go back to Plaintiffs' Exhibit 24 and look at the big picture. And where in the big picture are your flakers? A. The building? The flaker set - - if this is the whole building, control room and everything, the flaker sat out here (indicating) . Q. Right there. Just past the filter presumably - - A. Uh-huh (indicating yes). It's almost across - - Q. And presumably underneath this pipe that ultimately goes out to your outside storage tanks. Is that running along the roof of the - - or ceiling of the upstairs, or is it running right through the middle? I mean, are you bumping into that pipe that pumps it from the filter -- 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036524 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 119 1 A. No, it runs along the wall -- 2 Q. So it's taller than you? Oh, along the - 3 A. Something like that. 4 Q. Okay. All right. 5 A. Yeah, they had it where it -- 6 Q. -- wasn't in your way? 7 A. You can't run into it. 8 Q. Okay. 9 A. In fact, I believe it came up through the 1 0 floor right into the pan, best I remember, 11 from the receiver. 1 2 Q. Came - - comes from the receiver - - 13 A. Uh-huh (indicating yes) . 14 Q. -- and it comes -- it's piped up to a pan? 15 A. Uh-huh (indicating yes). 16 Q. Okay. 1 7 A. Again, this is a big -- 1 8 Q. It's a big pan? 1 9 A . Yeah. 2 0 Q. Made out of - - 2 1 A. - - steel, metal. 22 Q. Steel. Some kind of steel. And so it's 2 3 coming up as this molten type deal -- 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036525 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 12 0 1 A . Right. 2 Q. - - up to your pan? 3 A. Uh-huh (indicating yes). 4 Q. Your pan is on your second floor. Your 5 receiver is on your first floor or your 6 second floor? 7 A. Well, both. It -- 8 Q. It's big? 9 A. -- sits through the floor. 1 0 Q. It's big. 11 A. Yeah. 12 Q. So your receiver is as tall as your 1 3 chlorinator? 14 A. Yeah, it would hold a whole batch. 15 Q. So it's going to be the equivalent size of 16 your chlorinator? 17 A. Right. 18 Q. Okay. Which was about three thousand - - 1 9 A. Of course it don't look like the chlorinator, 2 0 but yeah, it's a big tank. 2 1 Q. All right. So it's running about -- and then 2 2 -- through your receiver -- and then your 23 flaker is only on the second floor? 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1 - 8 0 0 - 8 8 8 -DEPO HARTOLDMON0036526 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 12 1 1 A . Right. 2 Q. Okay. 3 A. The actual flaker is on the second floor. 4 Q. Okay. Immediately across from the filter 5 that was working on the - 6 A. Uh-huh (indicating yes). 7 Q. -- liquid aroclor? Do you want to mark that 8 as a flaker? 9 A. (Witness complies.) 1 0 Q. Okay. 11 A. If you can remember that. 1 2 Q. I can't wait to see how this comes out when 1 3 it's Xeroxed. 14 A. I'm not an artist. 1 5 Q. Okay. So maybe we now need yet another 16 drawing. Maybe we'll put Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1 7 25 on your depiction of the solid aroclor 18 here. 1 9 MR. PECK: Since you've been 2 0 labeling it, why don't you label it solid 2 1 aroclor too. 22 MS. RUTH: Okay. Aroclor overview. 23 - - oOo- - 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036527 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 122 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 (Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 25 was marked for identification and copy of same is attached hereto . ) Q. Okay. Now we'll -- real quick, let's go through how the flaker worked. A. The flaker. All right. I don't know how to draw it. It's -- let me describe it, and y'all help me draw it. It's a big drum, and the motor drums real slow, like one of those packers like you run up and down a road -- street - with, you know. That's what it looked like. Q. Like if you were going to bring cement? Like a cement truck? A. Only it's a cylinder. It's not - - Q . No? A . No . Q. Doesn't look like that? A . No . MR. PECK: What he's trying to describe is like an asphalt roller. THE WITNESS: Like a roller. 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036528 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 123 1 MR. PECK: Like you see on the side 2 of the road when they're rolling down - 3 THE WITNESS: When they put down 4 asphalt, when they run that big machine 5 that's got that roller on it packing it. 6 Q. (By Ms. Ruth) Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 7 MR. PECK: Steam roller, yeah. 8 THE WITNESS: Yeah, steam roller. 9 MS. RUTH: Only woman in a room of 10 men. Okay. 11 Q . Let's go. 12 A. But it's a huge cylinder like that. It's got 13 water piped through it. 14 And it sits down in that pan a 1 5 little bit, not all the way down but just 16 down where it's in that liquid aroclors that 17 run in that pan. That pan's got sides on it 1 8 yea high (indicating). 1 9 Q. Okay. So it's sitting in the pan -- your 20 roller's sitting in the pan. Is it touching 2 1 the bottom of the pan? 2 2 A . No . 23 Q. It doesn't touch the bottom? 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1 - 8 0 0 - 8 8 8 -DEPO HARTOLDMON0036529 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 124 1 A. No, it doesn't touch it. 2 Q. So are there suspension on either side - 3 A . Right. 4 Q. -- that are holding up your - 5 A. Uh-huh (indicating yes) . 6 Q . - - roller? 7 A. Got barons on it and got a motor - - 8 Q . Okay. 9 A. - - that turns it. 1 0 Q . It's turning. 11 A. The pan is electrically heated to keep that 12 solid aroclor hot in there where it won't go 13 to a solid. 14 Q. It's electrically heated. Does that mean 15 it's plugged into something? 1 6 A. Yes, it's got a power supply run to it. 17 Q. Okay. 18 A. Four forty, I think what it was, four hundred 19 and forty volts. It had little heating 2 0 elements in it that kept that pan hot. 2 1 Q. Is there some sort of a drain or something at 22 the base of the pan where the stuff is 2 3 bubbling up from the receiver? 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036530 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 12 5 1 A. No, it's pumped in there. 2 Q . It's pumped. 3 A. It comes in over the line. It just runs in 4 the back of the pan. 5 Q. Okay. 6 A. Runs out in the pan. This is pretty big - - 7 Q. How big is your pan? 8 A. Probably as big as this table where the 9 section is here. 1 0 Q. So, what is that, like, three feet wide? 11 MR. PECK: About four feet by four 12 feet. 13 MS. RUTH: Four feet by four feet. 14 THE WITNESS: It was big. 15 Q. (By Ms. Ruth) Okay. 16 A. That drum now sitting in that liquid, when 17 you start it, it starts turning. As it comes 1 8 over, that liquid will stick to that thing 1 9 and come over. 2 0 As it comes over, it had a piece of 2 1 steel blade like type that that blade run 22 across, scraped against that cylinder. And 2 3 when it came over, that aroclor had already 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036531 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 12 6 1 turned solid - - 2 Q . Okay. 3 A. -- because it cooled down as it was coming 4 up . 5 Q . So there's only just one blade on this 6 roller? 7 A. Uh~huh (indicating yes), one blade. 8 Q. One blade. 9 A. Most of the time, it will just fall off in 10 sheets. It looked like taffy candy or 11 something, only it was more solid than taffy. 12 Q. So it's coming up -- the blade is coming up 13 underneath and shaving off the top part of 14 this? 15 A. Yeah. It's run along the cylinder. Let me 1 6 - - if that was turning, that blade would be 17 right there. And as it turned, see, it would 1 8 scrape it off and be stuck to this -- 19 Q. Okay. I'm messing this up. When this is - - 20 when your roller turns, it picks up. Like if 2 1 you had a rolling pen -- if I could use one 2 2 of my analogies -- on flour, you'd be rolling 2 3 it -- like you roll it on the flour and it 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036532 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 12 7 1 would pick up the flour, and then you would 2 have the equivalent of - 3 A. By the time it got to the top, it turned 4 solid. 5 Q. Okay. 6 A. And when it came back over -- 7 Q. -- and as it's continuing to turn, you've got 8 the equivalent of a razor, I guess? 9 A. Uh-huh (indicating yes). If it happened to 1 0 be some stuck to that cylinder, this blade 11 would scrape it off, and it would fall down 1 2 in a little chute the whole length of the 13 pan. 14 Q. Okay. 1 5 A. And it had some little teeth like things that 1 6 turned in there that broke it up if it - - 1 7 Q. So it goes down a chute. Where does the 1 8 chute go to? Where is -- where does - 1 9 A. It goes -- it went into a hopper. 2 0 Q. I mean - - okay. In the grand scheme of the 2 1 plant, if we go back to the plant - - and 2 2 we've got our flaker on the second floor 23 here. Flaker is turning, and you're 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036533 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 12 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 scrapping off these big sheets off of your roller, and they're going down a chute - A. They're actually going into a hopper. It's a big -- shaped like a cement truck you was talking about. Q. Okay. A. Kindly cone shaped. Q. Okay. A. It falls down in it. Q. Okay. And it's sitting below? A. Right below it. Q. So almost like if you were down on the first floor, can you see the cone coming down from the where the flaker was, the hopper coming down from the flaker? A . Yeah. Q. You can see that? A. Right. Q. So it's hanging -- how far is it hanging down to the first floor? A. All the way - Q. -- to the ground? A. Probably this far (indicating). 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036534 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 12 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 Q. About three - A. About three feet. Q. - - feet up off the ground? A. Yeah. Q. So does the hopper hold it? A. Uh-huh (indicating yes) . Q. And you make a decision whether or not to let it out of the hopper? A. They're bagging it up and putting it in bags. We had laborers down there. Q. The laborers are standing at the base of the hopper ? A. Uh-huh (indicating yes). Q. And you can almost open the equivalent - well, you explain it to me. A. You're doing good. When it went down in the hopper, they had a little drum -- bagging station there. They had a fifty-pound bag put on a little chute that come out of the hopper. We had a little screw on there that brought the product out into the bag. Q. Okay. Now, is it going to come out in the 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036535 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 13 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 sheet it was scraped off? A. No, no. When it fell off, it'll usually just break off like glass, like real thin glass is what it looked like. But it also had -- when it fell off, it went down a little trough that had little teeth that turned with a motor. Q. Okay. A. And it would break it up into little bitty pieces and fall down in the hopper. Q. Now, at this point, what does it feel like or look like? A . It's just -- Q - Is it waxy or soapy or solid like - A . I don't know how to de s c ribe it. Q - Wood chips or - A . I'm trying to think of something I could. I don't -- it's like real thin glass is what i t looked 1ike, only it had a yellow tint to iL t , golden. Q. Could it cut you? A . No . Q. It wasn't sharp enough? 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036536 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 13 1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 A. It wasn't sharp. It would break like glass. It was real thin. Q. Okay. A. Because when it come off, it just had a film of it on there. Q. How about would it be almost like plastic, shavings of plastic? A. Not that -- you could break it. It was very easy to break. Q. Okay. A. Just get it in your hand like that, and it'd just break it all to pieces. Q. Okay. A. But we had laborers down there that bagged it up. The bags sat in a little chute there, and they'd fill it up pretty much where they thought was fifty pounds, take it off and put it on a little scale. If it needed a little more, they had a little drum there, and they'd add some to it. Q. What kind of a bag is this? A . Paper bag. 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888 -DEPO HARTOLDMON0036537 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 13 2 1 Q. Paper bag like you'd get at a grocery store, 2 but bigger? 3 A. Well, it's closed in except at one end, sewed 4 bottom and top. 5 Q. Is it lined? 6 A. No, it was just real -- several layers of 7 paper, real thick. And when they took it 8 off, that end at the very corner of it, like 9 this is the bag, it had an opening here made 1 0 to go on this little round chute and just fit 11 up on it. 1 2 Q. So I'm thinking, like, a vacuum cleaner bag, 13 if you're going to put a vacuum cleaner bag 14 on ? 15 A. Yeah, that's petty good. 1 6 Q. Okay. 17 A. And when that bag got up, they could tell by 1 8 looking at it when it was about full, about _L ^ had fifty pounds, they would close it off and 2 0 take it off and set it on the scale there. 2 1 And if it needed just a little 22 more, they'd add some to it. They had a 23 little scoop there. They'd put some in it. 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036538 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 13 3 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 i yr\ 20 21 22 23 or if it had too much, just take a little out . And then they'd fold that -- tuck that corner in and stack it on a pallet. I don't know how many is on a pallet. Probably thirty bags to a pallet, something like that, twenty-five. Q. Okay. So would it be a kin to lining up bags of lime or whatever? A. Uh-huh (indicating yes), that's the same type bag it was. Kind of like a bag of lime or something. Q. Okay. A. And they would stack it up, and when they'd get the pallet full, they'd move it with some little ole pallet trucks they had and put another pallet down. They'd do this the whole shift -- Q. Okay. A. -- until we run empty. If they happened to catch up, you know, run the hopper empty, then they'd get a little break. Q. Now, did you ever work in the bagging part? 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036539 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 134 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 A . No . Q . No? A. No, I never did no bagging. Q. What did you do with the flakes that didn't make it into the bag? If something doesn't get into the bag or gets on the floor -- did that ever happen? A. Oh, yeah, they swept it up and put it in a fiber drum. Q. Into a fiber drum? A. Uh-huh (indicating yes). Q. Now, did they ever clean that area? A fiber drum, is that any different from the other drums we've talked about? A . Yes. Q. Fiber drum is different? A. See, this is a solid. The others was liquid, so you couldn't put it in a fiber drum. Q. Okay. A. It would finally go through it. It's made out of paper type materials. Q. The fiber drum is made out of paper type material? 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036540 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 13 5 1 A. Yeah, out of fiber, whatever. 2 Q. So is it like cardboard? 3 A. Uh-huh (indicating yes). 4 Q. Yeah? 5 A. Stronger. 6 Q. Stronger than cardboard? 7 A. A lot stronger. We still use those drums 8 over there. 9 Q. Still use those? 1 0 A. Yeah, certain product, PNP. 11 Q. Okay. And then did you ever hose down that 1 2 area also or - - 1 3 A. We didn't get a whole lot of water around 14 that. We swept most of that up because it 15 was solid. It would sweep up. 1 6 Q. Do you remember ever hosing it down though in 17 a pinch, you know, relatives are coming over? 1 8 A. Not on solid, no. 1 9 Q . No ? 2 0 A . No . 21 Q. Okay. I meant to ask you this before when we 2 2 were talking about hosing down the 23 chlorinator area. For the liquid 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036541 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 13 6 1 chlorinators, did you ever use soap in your 2 -- or was it just water and steam? 3 A. Water. 4 Q. Water and steam? 5 A. Uh-huh (indicating yes). 6 Q. And the same for when you hosed down the 7 inside. 8 Okay. I have a document I need to 9 pull out real quick. This is a new one. 1 0 This is DSW085378, and it's actually just a 11 sampling. It's -- because it's a sixty page 12 document, and I didn't bring the whole thing, 13 but we can bring that next time if you need 14 it. It's an annual inspection from 1969. 1 5 And the only reason I brought it is 1 6 in here, you are named - - you're referenced 17 twice. One of them here is - - it says 18 "Aroclor Department." Part of the 1 9 inspection's Doug Rich along with Roland 2 0 Haydel, Tom Lackey, Joe Webb, and Dickey 2 1 Walker. 2 2 It's talking about - - I believe 2 3 this is your solid aroclor area because it 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036542 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 13 7 1 says the process is biphenyl and/or santowax 2 is chlorinated and refined by batch 3 distillation. So since you said santowax was 4 your - - 5 A. Yeah. 6 Q. -- ingredient. Your 1968 inspection 7 recommendations it says, "Major product 8 underway to eliminate burn hazards." Do you 9 know what burn hazards would have been at the 10 time? Does that ring a bell for you? 11 A. It could have been from steam line or 12 therminol line. 13 Q. Do you remember sort of being approached 14 about a project at the time that talked about 15 -- it's right there in the middle of the 16 page. It says -- does that ring any bells 17 for you? Do you remember anybody - 18 A. We get burned all the time. All those lines 1 9 are traced with steam. 2 0 They use copper tubing jumpers, and 2 1 when you get a section line that's put 2 2 together, they have a jumper that steam 2 3 tracing jumps over it, and that copper tubing 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036543 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 13 8 steam going through it sticks up just nothing on it. Q. Okay. A. Used to be. Now it's covered, but back then, it wasn't. Q. And would you not - A. If you were just working around and you happened to touch it, I mean you got a burn. Q. Serious burn. A. That may or may not be what they're talking about. Q. You just don't know? A . No . Q. What was the other thing? A. Therminol lines are hot. If they're not insulated good, you could get burned. I really don't know what that was referencing to. It's been so long. Q. This also talked about emphasis placed on insulation in department expansion. And it's like I said, the 1968 inspection, but you don't -- or 1969. It's the 1968 inspection recommendation referenced in the 1969 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036544 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 13 9 1 inspection. 2 And no comments, which I don't know 3 if that means there was no follow-up or 4 nothing happened based on these 5 recommendations from 1968. I have no idea 6 what that means. 7 But does this jog your memory about 8 a so-called expansion? I remember before, I 9 used that term, and you didn't know - - you 1 0 didn't know what I meant by "expansion," but 11 you did acknowledge they put in new tank 12 farms and additional chiorinators. 13 A. That's the only thing I can think would be an 14 expansion would be the adding those tanks and 1 5 stuff. 16 Q. There's one other thing I wanted to ask you 17 real quick because I didn't understand the 18 term. It lists you -- and it doesn't list 1 9 anything else in particular under it -- but 20 lists you under chlorine unloading. It lists 2 1 you along with Dickie Walker, Joe Webb, Tom 2 2 Lackey, and Roland Haydel. 2 3 A. That's unloading out of the tank cars, the 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888 -DEPO HARTOLDMON0036545 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 14 0 1 vaporiz e rs. 2 Q. Okay. I just wanted to know what that 3 meant. 4 A . Yeah. 5 Q. Okay. I guess we need to mark this. We're 6 up to 26. 7 8 (Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 26 was 9 marked for identification and 1 0 copy of same is attached 11 hereto.) 12 Q. Okay. I think I understand solid aroclor 13 pretty well. Let me just see if there's 14 anything else I need to know about it before 1 5 I move on. 1 6 I know what I wanted to ask you. 1 7 At some point, was there a separate - - was 1 8 the solid aroclor function moved, or was it 1 9 always in the same building as the liquid 2 0 aroclor? 2 1 A. While I was there, it was always the same 2 2 place. 2 3 Q. So you don't know anything about an 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036546 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 14 1 1 additional solid aroclor warehouse, a 2 warehouse ? 3 A. No, I don't know, no. They moved the flaker. 4 Q. They moved the flaker? 5 A. To a new warehouse across the street. 6 Q. Initially we have the flaker across from the 7 filter for the liquid aroclor - 8 A. Uh-huh (indicating yes) . 9 Q. -- function? At what point do you know when 1 0 they moved that flaker to this new location, 11 this warehouse location, and where was the 12 warehouse location? 1 3 We're going back to Plaintiffs' 14 Exhibit 23, and it's the overview of the 1 5 plant. 1 6 A. Tank farm. This warehouse is still here 1 7 today. 1 8 Q. And we're putting the warehouse in the - 1 9 what is that, northwest corner? 20 MR. PECK: Northeast. 21 Q. (By Ms. Ruth) Northeast corner. And I - 2 2 A. They put both tanks -- we had a biphenyl and 23 an aroclor flaker, and they put them down 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036547 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 14 2 here. They was much larger and everything. Q. What were the two types of flakers you had? A. Aroclor and biphenyl. Q. Okay. So biphenyl is --- next . MR. PECK: -- what we're gonna do Q. (By Ms. Ruth) What we're gonna do next. A. Okay. Q. How did you get your stuff now from the A . - - down here? Q . Down here. A. We had a tank down here we pumped into. Q. So you ran lines out of the aroclor building to a tank that sat where? A, All of them is on this south end of the buiIding. Q. South end of the warehouse? A. Right. We had a tank for each one and also had two flakers side by side. It was more automated the reason they did it. You know, get more production. People filling bags sat on a machine that 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036548 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 14 3 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 automatically weighed it and it dropped it on conveyor, you know, more streamline. That was part of the expansion on this -- they built the tank farm. Q. So all that -- we're getting back to the '68, '69 time frame when they built that? A , Right . Q. Let's put that in here. About '68 to '69 when that's built. And then these are tanks right here? A. Uh-huh (indicating yes). Q. And this pumped from -- again, are these underground or above ground? A. No, they're above ground. Pipe is above ground, goes up over here in a big pipe rack. Q. Piped from receivers. Okay. All right. And then from the tank, you pumped it into your flaker? A. Uh-huh (indicating yes) . Q. Does the flaker work the same as the other flaker we talked about? A. Right, just much larger. 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036549 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 144 1 Q. It's just much larger? 2 A . Right. 3 Q. And you now have two -- well, you have one 4 dedicated to aroclors and one dedicated to 5 biphenyl? 6 A . Right. 7 Q. So you have separate tanks, presumably, for 8 your - - what's piped? 9 A. Right. 1 0 Q. How many tanks do you have that are holding 11 aroclor? 12 A . One. 1 3 Q. One tank for aroclor, and one tank for 14 biphenyl? 1 5 A. Right. 16 Q. All right. And the warehouse now is used for 1 7 something else? 18 A. Yes. We drum out of it now all different 19 kind of products. Those tanks and all that's 20 been moved out. The flaker and all that's 2 1 gone now. 2 2 Q. Do you know if they ever hosed down this 2 3 area, or was this also -- how did they clean 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036550 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 14 5 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 up in the warehouse? A. I didn't work down there. I don't really know . Q. Never did work down there? A . No . Q. Was - A. Not around the flaker. I do now. That's where I work now, but all that's gone, so I don't know how they did it then. Q. Was it - - that function was inside though, the flaker was inside? A . Right. Q. Was that a cemented area? A . Right . Q. And, obviously, it was before - A. Right. Q. -- because your -- wood floors -- actually, it was wood floors or cement floors, when it was back in the old a r odor building? A. It was cement. Q. Cement. Okay. What was at the back end of the warehouse when you - - you had your flakers up front or at the south end? 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036551 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 14 6 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 A. Right. Q. What else was in that building? A. Just storage area for product drums and stuff, and the trucks come at the other end at the docks. We had docks there where the freight trucks backed in and we loaded them, which is still true today. Q. A dividing wall between - A. No, it was all a big open -- Q. Big open space? A . - - warehouse. Q. Okay. I hate to do this to you because we've been here so long, but I haven't come across anybody else who has done bi -- worked in the biphenyl department. A. You will tomorrow. Q. I will tomorrow? MR. PECK: He's trying to get you to put it off. Q. (By Ms. Ruth) But is he going to be as smart and helpful as you? A. Smarter and helpful. My memory, I tell you, that's a lot -- thirty something years ago. 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888 -DEPO HARTOLDMON0036552 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 14 7 It's embarrassing. Q. I think you're doing great. I got to be honest. I think you're doing great. I think Adam thinks you're doing too great because I'm getting into it. No, he just means your story telling is taking us - - he wants to get home in time for dinner. Let's just talk real quickly about the biphenyl department, and we'll move through it as quickly as we can. You were there - - I need to go back and look - - from 1990 to 1995; is that right? A. Yeah, and then -- Q. And prior to that - A. When aroclor shut down in '72. Q. In '72. Was it essentially the same job both times you were there? A. I worked all of them. They got three different jobs up there, and I worked all three. We rotated. Q. Had the process changed from when you were there in the '70s to when you were there in 2 0 0 1 PARK. PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036553 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 14 8 the '90s, or was it the same? A. Same. Q. Same process? And you were a chief operator or an operator? A . Operator. Q. You were an operator. Okay. Where is the - - if we go back to Plaintiffs' Exhibit 23, where is the biphenyl department in relation to everything else? A. Let's see (indicating). Q. Okay. So it's going to be just southeast. In the southeast corner. Do you want to write biphenyl? A. (Witness complies.) Right beside 202 -- if you go up 202, that's the department you see there, biphenyl. Q. And that building is still there? A . Right. Q. And they're still doing biphenyl today? A. Right. Q. What does the biphenyl department do? A. It makes two products, biphenyl and santowax. Q. Okay. Is santowax made separately, or is it 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036554 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 14 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 a by-product of biphenyl? A. It's a by-product. Q. It's a by-product? A. Uh-huh (indicatingyes). Q. And how do you makebiphenyl? A. Now, we're fixing to get into something here. They get in cars of benzene. Q. Bring in cars of benzene? A. That's the initial product, which is unloaded in the storage tank, run through what we call a tube unit. It's a cracking unit. It actually changes molecules on it. Goes through it and goes back out. Q. When the benzene goes in this tube, it changes the molecules on the benzene? A. Yeah, it's just a chemical process it goes through. Q. Do you add something else to it, or do you add air or gas or something that would change the molecules on it? A. It's temperature. Q. It's temperature. You're heating it or cooling it? 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036555 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 150 1 A. Heating. 2 Q. Heating it. How do you heat it? 3 A. With a furnace, big burners. 4 Q. So does it actually flow through the furnace? 5 A. It goes through coils in the pipe. 6 Q. I see. And does the benzene come up in a 7 tank where you drive up a tank of benzene? 8 Is it a tank car? 9 A. It's unloaded out of tank cars into storage 1 0 tanks. 11 Q. Two storage tanks? 12 A. Two storage tanks, right. 13 Q. So the same way you did the chlorine -- well, 14 not the same way because the chlorine went 1 5 right into - - 1 6 A. Yeah, this is a liquid. 1 7 Q. And then is it pumped from the storage tank? 1 8 A. Through the tube unit. 1 9 Q . Okay. 2 0 A. And then after it comes out of it, it goes - 2 1 it goes through a column, distillation 2 2 column, and the temperature they run it 2 3 determines how much of it is santowax and how 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036556 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 151 1 much is biphenyl. And -- 2 Q. The temperature at which they run the 3 benzene? 4 A. Benzene column. 5 Q. After -- this is after you heated it the 6 first time? 7 A. Right. 8 Q. Then you pump it into -- you're pumping it 9 into the column; is that right? 1 0 A. Right. 11 Q. And how many columns do you use? 12 A. It's got two passes through it. 1 3 Q. It's one column, or how many columns do you 14 have ? 15 A. Yeah, one column. 1 6 Q. Just one column in the whole place? 1 7 A. It's big. Sticks way up in the air. But 18 anyhow -- let's see. 19 The benzene flashes over the top 20 what is didn't - - wasn't converted. What 2 1 falls out is crude biphenyl, and then it's 2 2 pumped to another tank. 23 I haven't worked up there long. 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036557 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 152 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 That guy tomorrow is going to be better. He just left that department. After it leaves there, it goes to the column called biphenyl column, and the biphenyl is real light. It flashes over the top of this column. It goes through a second column, got a condenser. Q. Okay. A. And it goes -- when it comes over, it's called biphenyl. And that's -- it's a finished product. And the bottom -- the heavy part is santowax, and it goes through another furnace through another column, distilled again, and then it's pumped to the HB40 department where they make therminol out of it. Q. Okay. And it used to be sent -- in addition to the HB 4 0 department, it used to be sent to the aroclor? A . Right. Q. Okay. Now, what I'm going to do is take you at your word that this other guy is going to know more and reserve my right to call you 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036558 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 153 1 back if he doesn't know enough. 2 A. Okay. 3 MR. WRIGHT: Do you want to find 4 out who that is? 5 Q. (By Ms. Ruth) Yeah, which one - 6 A. Charles Chatman. He worked up there for 7 years. 8 Q. Okay. He's actually the day after tomorrow. 9 A. Yeah, he worked up there for years and just 1 0 left the department. 11 Q. He's Thursday. 12 A. It would be more fresh in his mind. 1 3 Q. Well then, what I'll do is I'll count on him 14 to give me the real specifics, and like I 1 5 said, I'll reserve the right to hassle you 16 later if I don't learn what I need to learn. 1 7 But I've got what I think are some 1 8 rapid questions, and I'll let you go home to 19 dinner - - let y'aii go home to dinner. 2 0 Real quick, did you ever go to the 2 1 landfill? 2 2 A . No . 2 3 Q. Never went up to the landfill? 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036559 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 154 1 A. Never had an occasion to go. 2 Q. Okay. Were you -- was it ever -- were you 3 ever offered to be tested -- or did anyone 4 ever offer to you that you be tested for PCBs 5 in your blood? 6 A. I have been tested; the company has, yes. 7 Q. And did you get your results back? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And how did that work out? Do you know what 1 0 the results were? 11 A. It was in the forties. Forty-seven, I think. 12 It's been three or four years ago, five. I 13 don't even remember. 14 Q. Okay. And did you -- did anybody express any 15 concern to you about that, or were you 1 6 concerned about that? 1 7 A. I'm not concerned about it. 18 Q. You're not concerned? 1 9 A . No . 2 0 Q. Did the doctors or anybody -- did a company 2 1 doctor or anybody tell you to - 2 2 A. We had a guy from the home office come down 2 3 and held some meetings in the conference room 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800 - 888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036560 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 155 about it and went over the results and what it meant. Q. Did he go over the results publicly or take each of you individually? A . No , i t was a group. Q It was a group. And he said you got - - this i s what your results were? A . No , he didn't know what our results were . Q Oh , he didn't know what your results we re . A . We got that privately. You know, he talked about what they knew about PCBs and so forth. Q. And did he -- did he express an opinion to you about what would be considered an elevated amount of PCBs? A. I don't remember that he did. Q. Okay. How long ago was that about? A. You and them dates. I can't remember them. Time flies. I'm going to say it was five years. Q. About five years ago? A. Yeah. Q. Okay. And do you remember when they were shutting the plant - - when they were shutting 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036561 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 156 1 the aroclor plant down? Do you remember 2 being told that there were shutting it down? 3 Do you remember how you were told 4 they were shutting it down? Do you remember 5 if you had any thoughts as to why? 6 Okay. I've ask you three 7 questions, so maybe we should start with the 8 first one. Do you remember being told that 9 they were shutting it down? 1 0 A. Yes, ma'am. 11 Q. And how did they tell you? 1 2 A. They called a meeting one day. 1 3 Q. The managers, your immediate supervisor? 14 A. Yes, supervisor. 1 5 Q. Who was your supervisor? 16 A. Let's see. That was Gerald Miller. 1 7 Q. Gerald Miller? 18 A. Yeah. 1 9 Q. Anybody else there that was running the show, 2 0 or was it just him? 2 1 A. Vince Haupt was a foreman. Pretty sure he 22 was there. I don't remember. 23 But they just called a meeting and 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036562 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 15 7 1 said that after such and such date that they 2 was gonna cease making aroclor. 3 Q. About how far in advance of actually closing 4 the plant did they have the meeting do you 5 think? Do you think it was a month? 6 A. I'm gonna say a couple months. 7 Q. Couple months. Did they give you a reason at 8 that time why they were shutting it down? 9 A. No. Of course, we, you know, had heard some 1 0 stuff. 11 Q. Some grapevine kind of stuff? 12 A. Yeah, through the grapevine. 13 Q. Had y'all kind of speculated about why they 14 might have been shutting it down? 15 A. Well, yeah, it was publicity about PCBs. 16 Figured maybe that's what it was. 1 7 Q When do you first remember hearing any 1 8 negative publicity or any publicity at all 1 9 about PC B s ? 2 0 A . You mean the date? 2 1 Q Yeah, or range. Was it a year before they 22 shut it down? Four years be f ore they shut 23 down? Ten years? 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036563 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 15 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 A. I'd say a year and a half, two years before they shut it down. Q. Somewhere around 1970ish? A . '71, yeah. Q. Do you remember what kind of things you heard in the '70s time range? A. What I saw in the paper. Q. Do you remember what kind of stuff that was? I mean - A. Well, you know, that and saccharin. They came out with -- said they, you know, tested and give rats massive doses of it and it caused cancer in them, you know. Q. Uh-huh (indicating yes). A. But not in humans. So, you know, that had been on the news. Us making it here too, it'd been locally, you know, in the news. Q. Did you ever hear about contamination off-site, PCB contamination, off-site the plant? A . No . Q. Have you heard about it recently, I mean, in the context stuff? 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036564 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 15 9 1 A . Oh, yeah. 2 Q. Is that the first time -- when was the first 3 time you think you heard about contamination 4 off-site? 5 A. Probably '94. '93 or '94. 6 Q. '93 or '94. Prior to that, you'd never heard 7 of - - 8 A. Huh-uh (indicating no). 9 Q. - - PCB contamination? 1 0 A. When they started dredging, I think, 11 Choccolocco Creek or something, they come out 12 about it. 1 3 Q. How about mercury contamination, had you ever 14 heard about there being mercury contamination 1 5 on or off the plant? 1 6 A . No . 17 Q . No? 1 8 A. No, I never have heard that. 1 9 Q. What was I going to say? Do you remember 2 0 back either right around this what we've 2 1 called expansion time -- the term I think I 2 2 foist it on you -- but expansion time or 2 3 around then, do you remember there being any 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036565 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 160 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 change in your production techniques, or was there any new special training that went on around that time that went along with the expans ion? In that time frame '68, '69, '70, was there anything unique that happened in terms of your work in the aroclor department? Do you remember getting any special instructions, any new extra be careful instructions? Anything really? Anything that stands out? A. I'm trying to think. One time they put in some catch basin outside the department to catch everything that run out of the department. Q . Okay. A. And it was separated from any water going out of the plant. I do remember them doing that . I don't remember whether it was around that time or not. Q. So this is the water - - is this the water that normally ran to the limestone pit? 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036566 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 16 1 1 A . Yes. 2 Q. And so you don't remember when they did that? 3 Would you put it in the '68, '69 time frame? 4 A. Yeah, '70. Somewhere in there. 5 Q. Somewhere in there - 6 A . Right. 7 Q. -- they put in a catch basin. And what is a 8 catch basin? 9 A. Well, I never did really look at it that 10 much. It was outside the department. 11 It was a pit or big in ground - - I 12 think it was made out of brick. Wasn't a 1 3 tank. 1 4 And all our water run into it 15 before it went out. Some way they separated 1 6 -- if it got any product in it, it would 1 7 separate it. 18 I don't know exactly. I didn't run 19 that part of it. I don't know how it 20 actually worked. But it was supposed to have 2 1 separated it, kept it from going out. 2 2 Q. Okay. Did you ever hear of them putting in a 2 3 second limestone pit? Was there just one 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036567 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 162 1 limestone pit? Do you remember - 2 A. As far as I know. Just one. 3 Q . Just one. 4 MS. RUTH: And off the record. 5 (Discussion off the record.) 6 Q. (By Ms. Ruth) Okay. Let's see. I think - 7 oh, and also did you ever get involved in any 8 sampling in terms of plant effluent, the 9 water that left the PCB or aroclor 1 0 department ? 11 A . No . 1 2 Q. Okay. Never involved in that? 13 A. (Witness shakes head.) 14 Q. Before we formally tie up, I just want to 1 5 take a break and visit with Drew and see if 1 6 there's anything he can think of that I 1 7 haven't thought of, and then we'll let you go 18 home? 1 9 A. Okay. 2 0 (Short reces s . ) 2 1 Q. Real quick. We'll go back to when you got 2 2 blood tested, and I think you said that there 2 3 was a meeting held sort of informing everyone 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036568 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 16 3 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 that the blood test results had come back in? That didn't happen? A. The blood test came back, you know, the results. And then later, a guy came down and talked. Q. If you want to, just quickly -- just briefly describe that process for me. Do you get notified by mail we're testing all people who worked in the aroclor department? Do you get tapped on the shoulder by your boss who says - - A. You mean how do we first -- Q. Yeah, how was contact first initiated? A. I heard it from the guys we worked with. They said if we wanted to be tested for PCBs, we could. Of course we all was tested. Out of curiosity I was. Q. Now, was everybody in the whole plant tested - - A . No . Q. -- or just anybody who worked in the aroclor? A. People that worked in aroclor. Q. And was it only people who still worked at 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036569 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 164 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 the plant or people who had since retired or quit or had been fired but had at one time worked there? A. I can't answer that. Now, I don't know whether they got retirees or not. Q. What was the day like when you got blood tested? I mean, was there a doctor set up at some central - - or nurse set up some place central? A. Yeah, we got a dispensary, and they just drew the blood and sent it off. Q. You went to a dispensary? A. Yeah, we got one there at the plant. Q. What does that mean? A. First aid station. MR. PECK: It's like nurse's station. THE WITNESS: First aid station. Doctors come out, you know, and we have physic a1s. Q. (By Ms. Ruth) And did you get a -- okay. I guess what I'm asking is: Did you get a formal time to come by? Once you kind of 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036570 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 16 5 1 heard about it, did you go sign up someplace 2 to say hey I want to get this done? 3 A. Best I remember, we signed up. 4 Q. You signed up? 5 A. Everybody that worked there wanted to be 6 tested, and then they give us certain time, 7 like, you know, between 1:00 and 3:00 come on 8 down and we'll draw your blood. 9 Q. So you don't remember any formal 10 notification? You just remember sort of 11 hearing it from other guys who worked in 12 aroclor? 13 A. It may have been on e-mail. I don't know. 14 Q. Does everybody have an e-mail address? 15 A. Yes. 1 6 Q. Oh, that's cool. 1 7 A. Uh-huh (indicating yes). 1 8 Q. Do y'all have your own computer? 19 A. Uh-huh (indicating yes). Each department. 2 0 Q. Okay. 2 1 A. Like I work in shipping, we've got computers 2 2 there, and we've each got our e-mail address. 2 3 Q. So you can jump on? 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036571 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 16 6 1 A. Yeah. Of course the bosses now, people that 2 work in the office, they each one got the 3 individual computer. 4 Q. But y'all do have one central one you can 5 share ? 6 A. Yeah. 7 Q. That's cool. So you go to get your blood 8 tested, and then what happens? You get 9 something in the mail or something passed out 1 0 with your paycheck or - 11 A. How did they notify us? It was a written 12 notice. I don't think it came through the 13 mail. I believe they gave it to us at the 14 plant. 1 5 We also got a mailbox where we come 16 in the main building there going to the bath 1 7 house that's got your name on it, and any 1 8 paper mail's always in there, forms or 19 anything. I believe it was in there. 2 0 Q. You check that usually on your way in on most 2 1 days - - 2 2 A . Oh, yeah. 2 3 Q. -- to see if there's any mail. 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036572 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 167 1 A. Yeah. Going down, you'll glance at it 2 because you walk right by it. Most of it's 3 e-mail, of course, that type stuff's not. 4 But I believe that's the way they notified 5 us - - 6 Q. Okay. 7 A. -- was in a sealed envelope. 8 Q. So you get your results and you look at it, 9 and is it fair it didn't mean anything to you 1 0 at that point? 11 A. (Witness shakes head.) 12 Q. You had been given any -- had you been given 1 3 any explanation before you got your blood 14 tested as to what different levels could mean 15 or what anything could mean or different 1 6 levels of PCBs I mean? 1 7 A. What I had read, just twenty or something. 1 8 But I read that in the paper. 19 Q. You'd read in the paper that twenty was the 2 0 gauge at which anything over it - 2 1 A. Right. 22 Q. Okay. -- would be elevated? Okay. Then you 2 3 said at some point after you got your 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036573 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 16 8 1 results, a meeting was called to - - 2 A. Yes. This guy from -- I don't know what his 3 name was, but he was from, the home office. 4 He just came down and met and explained what 5 they knew about -- 6 Q. Do you know what department he was with? 7 A. No, I don't. Don't even remember his name. 8 Like I say, it's been a good while. 9 Q Do you know what he looked like? 1 0 A . No .. I can't even remember that . You asked 11 me stuff too far back. 12 Q. I've moved you up to the '90s. 13 A. I can't remember what happened yesterday, 14 much less '95. Seriously, I don't remember 1 5 what he looked like. 16 MR. PECK: He'll remember what you 1 7 look like tomorrow, but he probably won't 18 remember me. 19 THE WITNESS: Well, I'm staring at 2 0 her to answer her questions. 21 Q. (By Ms. Ruth) So we got a guy from St. 2 2 Louis, and I think earlier you said Gerald 23 Miller. Are these the only two people 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036574 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 16 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 running the meeting? A. Gerald Miller is the one that told us in '72 that the department was shutting down. He no longer works for the company. Q. Oh, I got all confused. MR. PECK: Gerald Miller was way way back. THE WITNESS: Yeah, he was my supervisor back then. Q. (By Ms. Ruth) Okay. I'm sorry about that. I got my meetings confused. So other than the gentleman from St. Louis, was there anybody else from either the Anniston office or any place else that was either running or attending, sort of in a supervisory position, this meeting? A. Huh-uh (indicating no). Q. No? So there's just one guy standing up there and - - A. Somebody introduced him. Q. Some nondescript guy with no name. A. Well, somebody introduced him. I don't know who it was, whether it was the personnel man 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036575 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 170 or who it was now, but he introduced him, you know . And they sent out e-mails that he would be there and wanted everybody to come over and listen to what he had to say. You didn't have to, but we did. Q. Right. Now, was everyone invited or just people who had been blood tested? A. I think everybody was invited. Q. About how long did that meeting last do you think? A. About an hour. Q. About an hour. What kind of stuff did he tell you? A. Well, the latest, you know, results. They've -- something the company had checked people that worked in aroclor at different places. And Westing House and GE had checked theirs and the results on them. Q. Okay. A. Rates and stuff. Q. And did they give you any comparison, in other words, how your people tested against 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1 - 8 0 0 - 8 8 8 -DEPO HARTOLDMON0036576 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 171 1 GE or Westing House? How Monsanto Anniston 2 tested against - 3 A. They just said that all the people involved 4 in PCB was lower than -- the cancer rate was 5 lower than the general population. 6 Q. Okay. 7 A. According to their stats. 8 Q. According to their stats, all people who they 9 blood tested, or all people who worked - 1 0 A. -- worked in aroclor. 11 Q. In aroclor. 12 MR. PECK: At Anniston or GE? 13 Q. (By Ms. Ruth) At Anniston or GE or 14 everybody? 15 A. Well, the test wasn't just at Anniston. It 16 was at all the places. I think GE and 1 7 Westing House workers had more PCBs than 1 8 anybody. 1 9 q t More PCBs in their blood - - 2 0 A. Right. 2 1 Q. -- than the Anniston workers had in their 2 2 blood? 23 A. (Witness nods head.) 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800^888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036577 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 172 1 Q. Did they only test - - did Monsanto only test 2 Anniston aroclor workers, or did they also 3 test the people who used to make aroclors in, 4 I think it's Krumrich? 5 MR. PECK: Object to the form of 6 the que s tion. 7 THE WITNESS: I don't know. 8 Q. (By Ms. Ruth) So you remember they told you 9 about this group of people being tested and 1 0 that the cancer levels were lower in people 11 who worked the aroclor rather than the 12 general population? 13 A. Right. 14 Q. What other kind of stuff do you think they 15 told you that would have gone on for an hour? 1 6 I mean, would they have told you - 1 7 A. Well, they got the question and answer 18 period, people asking different questions. I 1 9 don't remember what all it was. 2 0 Q. You don't remember. Did you ask any 2 1 que s tions ? 2 2 A . No . 2 3 Q. No. Okay. Guess what, you're free to go. 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036578 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 173 1 Thank you very much. 2 A. Your welcome. 3 4 (Deposition concluded at 5:00 p.m.) 5 FURTHER THE DEPONENT SAITH NOT. 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036579 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 174 1 C E RT I F I CATE 2 3 STATE OF ALABAMA ) 4 CALHOUN COUNTY } 5 6 I HEREBY CERTIFY that the above and 7 foregoing transcript was taken down by me in 8 stenotype, and the questions and answers thereto 9 were transcribed by means of computer-aided 1 0 transcription, and that the foregoing represents 11 a true and correct transcript of the testimony 12 given by said witness. 13 I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am neither 14 of counsel, nor of any relation to the parties to 1 5 the action, nor am I anywise interested in the 16 result of said cause. 17 18 19 20 21 'AMMY j JEMiHGS G^feGOkxJhT ,Notary Public,/State of Alabama 22 MY COMMISSION"'" EXPIRES: 9 - 12 - 2 0 0 1 23 2001 PARK PLACE, SUITE 220 BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA 35203 1-800-888-DEPO HARTOLDMON0036580 HARTOLDMON0036581 PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT H\oo HARTOLDMON0036582 PLAINTIFF'S exhibit HARTOLDMON0036583 PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT HARTOLDMON0036584 tyt'sitxmw to M* ANNISTON PLANT RON BROWN GENE BARHAM JERRY BRATSCH LEO LOYZZA BOB ROSE OSH 085378 PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT 2~U &ck HARTOLDMON0036585 Tho inquiry should bo concerned with: i. Planned programs . 2. .Programs already written with , assignments, timo tables, oto. 3. Mature programs with some , . ' evldenoo of offectivonoss. * ' . In summary, are tho plants goarlng to be ready for ohanges that are Doming, to make opportunities rathor than suffer inoonvonionoes. (' WRR/yad W. R. Robirds \ osw 0853*9 HARTOLDMON0036586 10;45 Chlorine Unloading Roland iiaydol Tom Lackey Joe Webb Dickie walker Doug Rich Comments; 10;50 Area I Maintenance Shop Olio Hill Arnold Col'iold John Rowell John Garmon Hill Cobb Comments: 11:00 Ulphony l/Santowax .'itllla Lamar Faulkner Harold Hell Wyatt Uryant Bryan Thrasher Dob Ratty Process: Crude biphenyl is continuously distilled thronqh a ,10-tray column, yielding product biphenyl over head and crude Santowax bottoms, crude Santowax is continuously distilled, yielding Santowax U overhead ami Moutar bottoms. Comments; _______________________________________ -35 0SW 085434 HARTOLDMON0036587 10:00 Aroclor Office (Coffee) Ban Ward France* Barnard Baa Henderson Commentsi 101 20 Aroclor Roland Haydel Tom Lackey Doug Rich Joe Wabb Dickie Walker Processi Biphenyl and/or Santowax R is chlorinated and refined by batch distillation. Electrical grades are further refined by activated earth treatment. 1968 Inspection Recommendations Safety #3 - Major project underway to eliminate burn hazards. Housekeeping 12 - Emphasis placed on insulation in department expansion. Comments:_____________ _____ ___ 10:35 1IB-40 Lamar Faulkner Bryan Thrasher Hail Steen Processt Santowax R is hydrogenated batchwiae to produce HB-40. Comments t -34- J}SW 085433 HARTOLDMON0036588