Document RpzZeo4j4akYj87wqv66RKQEk

ORIGINAL In the Court of Common Pleas Philadelphia County In Re: Paoli Railroad Yard PCB Litigation ) ) Master File Number ) 90-0609-C-6 In the United States District Court For the Eastern District of Pennsylvania In Re: Paoli Railroad Yard PCB Litigation ) Master File Number ) 86-2229 ) Relates to all Actions July 17,1991 Deposition of WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE, taken on behalf of Plaintiffs. GORE REPORTING COMPANY Boatmen's Tower, Suite 1175 -100 North Broadway St. Louis, Missouri 63102 (314) 241-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000037769 1 In the Court of Common Pleas 2 Philadelphia County 3 4 In Re : ) 5 Paoli Railroad Yard ) Master File Number 6 PCB Litigation 7 8 ) 90-0609-C-6 ) 9 In the United States District Court 1 0 For the Eastern District of Pennsylvania 11 1 2 In Re: ) Master File Number 1 3 Paoli Railroad Yard ) 86-2229 14 PCB Litigation ) Relates to All Actions 15 16 17 1 8 Deposition of WILLIAM 19 B. PAPAGEORGE, taken on behalf of Plaintiffs , 20 at the offices of Brown & James,705 Olive 2 1 Street, in the City of St. Louis, State of 2 2 Missouri, on the 17th day of July, 1991, 2 3 before J. Bryan Jordan, certified shorthand 2 4 reporter and notary public. 25 GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 2 WATER PCB-SD0000037770 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 APPEARANCES: FOR THE PLAINTIFFS: Mr. Arnold E. Cohen Klerh, Harrison , Harvey, Branzburg & Ellers ' 1401 Walnut Street . .- Philadelphia , Pennsylvania 19 10 2 Mr. John F. In n e11i Kohn, Savett, Klein, & Graf, P.C. 2400 One Reading Center 1101 Market Street Philadelphia , Pennsylvania 19 10 7 FOR THE DEFENDANT MONSANTO COMPANY: Mr. Michael H. M a 1in White & Williams One Liberty Place, Suite 1800 1650 Market Street Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103-7301 i GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 3 | * WATER PCB-SD0000037771 1 FOR THE DEFENDANT AND THIRD-PARTY DEFENDANT 2 GENERAL ELECTRIC COMPANY: 3 Mr. Stephen M. McManus 4 Liebert, Short & Hirshland 5 31st Floor ' I wi '! 6 1901 Market Street -; 7 Philadelphia , Pennsylvania 19 10 3 , 8 9 FOR THE DEFENDANT BUDD COMPANY: 1 0 Mr. R. Thomas McLaughlin 1 1 Kelly, McLaughlin & Foster j 1 2 1700 Atlantic Building 1 3 260 Broad Street i j 1 4 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19102 15 1 6 FOR THE DEFENDANT AMTRAK: j I I j 1 7 Ms. Suzanne H. Gross 1 8 Margolis, Edelstein, Scherlis, Sarowitz 1 9 & Kreamer 2 0 The Curtis Center 2 1 Fourth Floor 2 2 Independence Square West | f I ; 23 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19106-3304 ; l 24 25 GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI ! WATER PCB-SD0000037772 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 FOR THE DEFENDANT CONSOLIDATED RAIL CORPORATION!: Ms. Colleen F. Coonelly '~ ! Pepper, Hamilton & Scheetz i 3000 Two Logan Square ; 18th and Arch Streets ' Philadelphia, Pennsylvania .19109 i FOR THE DEFENDANTS SOUTHEASTERN PENNSYLVANIA , TRANSPORTATION AUTHORITY AND THE PENN CENTRAL CORPORATION: Mr. Roger F Cox i I i ` Blank, Rome, Comisky & McCauley 1200 Four Penn Center Plaza Philadelphia, Pennsylvania ! GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 5 * WATER PCB-SD0000037773 i 2 3 4 5 6 n 3 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 INDEX EXAMINATION BY MR . INNELLI EXAMINATION BY MR . COHEN EXAMINATION BY MR . INNELLI ' EXAMINATION BY MS . COONELLY . EXAMINATION BY MR . MCLAUGHLIN - PAGE 7 48 1 7 l'18 9 19 1 EXHIBITS Papageorge No . 1 .................................................................. 7 7 Papageorge No . 2 ................................. Papageorge No . 3 .................................................................. 102 Papageorge No . A ................................. Papageorge No . 5 ................................. .................................. 139 Papageorge No . 6 ................................. .............................. 14 3 Papageorge No . 7 .................................. .............................. 157 i i! GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 6 i ' WATER PCB-SD0000037774 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Whereupon . WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE, of sound mind, having been first duly sworn to tell the truth , the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in the case aforesaid, testified upon his oath a s follows^ to-wit : ; i i EXAMINATION BY MR . INNELLI : ; Q. Good morning, Mr. Papageorge . A. Good morning. i i Q. My name is John In n e11i . I'm one of the counsel representing Plaintiffs in a n action involving the P a o1i rail yard. I will j I | have a series of questions for you today . I f a t any point in time you don't hear a question that I've asked, I'll be happy to j ! ! repeat it for you. If a t any point in time you don't unders t and a question that I've asked, please let me know and we will attempt toclarify it. j i i { ii j Would you, for the record, please state your name and current home address. A. William B. Papageorge, 321 Pebble , j iII i , Valley Drive , St. Louis, Missouri, 63141 . : Q. Would you also state for the ; GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 7 ^ WATER PCB-SD0000037775 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 record your educational background, starting with the high school you attended? ' A. I attended McKinley High School in j i j St. Louis; graduated there in 1938. I attended Washington University in St. Louis, received a Bachelor of Science in Chemical j Engineeringdegree in 1943, and again attended Washington University and received a Master ofScience Degree in Chemical j ! j i ! Engineering In 1947, and subsequent to that, I attended -- or, accumulated credits at , Oklahoma State University toward a doctorate j i ; degree. As I recall, I have about twelve i units credited toward that. Q. When you graduated from Washington j ii j University in 1943, did you godirectly from j the undergraduate program to the Master's program at Washington University? i I\ j A . No . Q. When did you enter Washington University in pursuit of your Master of j Science degree? A. In August of 1946. Q. Can you describe for the record | j i i what you did between 1943 and 1946 in the way ' GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 8 j L WATER PCB-SD0000037776 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 of employment? A. Does military service count as employment? MR. COHEN : BY MR. INNELLI: It sure does. ' % Q . It sure does. - A . That 1 s where I spent that period of time. Q. Okay, which branch of the armed services were you in? A . The Army. Q. And when were you discharged from the Army? A. It was in August of 1946. I don't remember the exact date. Q. Okay, and was it an honorable discharge? A. Yes. Q. Did you become employed in 1947 after the completion of the Master's program in science a t Washington University? A . Yes. Q. And with whom did you become employed? A. Phillips Petroleum Company in GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MIS S OUR I 9 ^ WATER PCB-SD0000037777 1 Bartlesville, Oklahoma. 2 Q. And in what capacity did you 3 become employed by Phillips Petroleum? 4 A. As a research engineer. 5 Q. Could you describe' for me what " 6 your responsibilities were a s a. research 7 engineer for Phillips Petroleum when you 8 first became employed by Phillips Petroleum 9 in 1947? 1 0 A. I was involved with research 1 1 studies that related to drilling mud and its 1 2 properties, attempting to find improved types 1 3 of mixtures . I was also involved with 1 4 secondary recovery procedures . This is a 1 5 method where oil wells that are not producing 1 6 a s much a s they used to are reenergized by 17 various techniques , and I was invo1ved in 1 8 studies relating to that. 1 9 Q. And for how long a period of time 2 0 did you have these duties? 2 1 A. About two years. 2 2 Q . So approximately sometime in 1 9 4 9, 2 3 your responsibilities changed ? 2 4 A. Yes. 2 5 Q Were you still with Phillips GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 10 WATER PCB-SD0000037778 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Petroleum in 1949? A . Yes. Q. What new responsibilities did you assume in 1949? A. I was a design en g i neer in the Refinery Department of Phillips Petroleum Company. Q. And what did those responsibilities entail? A. It involved the engineering calculations that led to the proposed design of equipment for refining petroleum products. Q. How long did you -- were you involved in the engineering calculations for the design of equipment? A. About two years. Q. What was your next job or responsibility? A. I then joined the Monsanto Company. Q. Okay, you joined Monsanto in 1951? A . Correct . Q. In what capacity? A. Design engineer. Q. Was there a particular reason for GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 11 WATER PCB-SD0000037779 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 your leaving Phillips Petroleum and going to Monsanto? , A. Oh, I guess I would describe it a s looking for greener pastures. Q. And where were you' employed with Monsanto? .,, A. At the John F. Queeny plant located in St. Louis,Missouri . . Q. Now, what did your ! responsibilities a s a design engineer for Monsanto entail when you first joined them in 19 5 1? : A. I performed the necessary 1 engineering calculations that led to the proposed design of equipment used in the ; manufacture of achemical. [ Q. And what chemical was that? ; A . Pthalic anhydride. ; Q. Could you spell that, please? A. P-h-t-h-a-l-i-c anhydride, j ! ; a-n-h-y-d-r- i -d-e . J Q . And what was that chemical used f or ? : A . It's a starting material used in the manuf acture of plastics and paints. ; GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 12 ! WATER PCB-SD0000037780 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q . Which department were you in during this time period? ' A. A t the plant, the department was called the plant -- I'm sorry, it was called the Process Investigation G roup. - Q . What were the functions., of the Process Investigation Group ? A. They were a group of technical people assigned the task of reviewing the processes a t the plant, in a n attempt to make them more efficient or to expand them, enlarge them, to make more material than t h e y were producing a t the time , or to introduce i i j new processes for the manufacture of new and different produc t s . ! i Q. When you say that the Process Investigation Group would evaluate the processes used in the manufacture of products, would that involve evaluation of the process used in the manufacture of PCB ' s ? A. Not a t this plant , no, Q. Okay. You say "not a t this plant," meaning the John F. Queeny plant? A. Correct . Q. Was there another plant where GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 13 WATER PCB-SD0000037781 1 there was such production going on? 2 A . Yes . 3 Q . And which plant was that? 4 A. There are two of them; one in 5 Anniston , Alabama -- let me correct myself.6 Two in the United States : One in A.n n i s t o n , 7 A1abama, and one a t S auge t, Illinois . 8 Q. Now, a t each of those plants , the 9 Anniston and the S auge t plant, would there be 1 0 a Process Investigation Group? 11 A. There would be a similar group, 1 2 yes. I don't know if they used the same 13 designation, same title. 14 Q. How long wereyou a member of the 1 5 Process Investigation Group a t the John 16 F. Queeny plant? 17 A. Abou t a couple of years . 1 8 Q. So that would take us to 1 9 approximately 1953? 2 0 A. Yes . 2 1 Q. A t that point in time, what became 2 2 your responsibilities? 2 3 A . I becamea supervisor in a 2 4 production unit a t that plant. 2 5 Q. What do you mean by production GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST . LOUIS , MIS SOURI 14 WATER PCB-SD0000037782 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 unit? A. This consists of a facility with the necessary equipment which is designated to produc e a given produc t, a given chemical from raw material to the finished product/ Q And which product w a s t-h at? A . This was a unit that made chemicals , a family of chemicals called plasticizers. Q And what are plasticizers? A . They are materials that can best i 1 i be described as the type that are introduced i into plastics to give plastics flexibility so . they don' t crack o r break, that they are not brittle any longer. Q Were plasticizers -- excuse me. Were PCB' s used in the manuf ac ture of plasticizers? i i i | j i A . No . Q Were they a component part of plasticizers? A . No . Q What type of recordkeeping process or procedure did you have as the supervisor j 11 1 * : for the production unit? 1 GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 15 WATER PCB-SD0000037783 1 A. Would you help me with the 2 recordkeeping process? Is that the mechanics 3 of taking notes, or -- 4 Q. What type of records would you 5 keep as the production unit supervisor? - 6 A. I personally did not . k e e.p records. 7 I had a clerk who assisted me in keeping the 8 appropriate records. 9 Q. Was there a Monsanto corporate 1 0 policy regarding what type of records should 1 1 be kept by a product unit or production unit 1 2 supervisor? 1 3 MR. MALIN: Could we define the 1 4 period of time. 1 5 MR. INNELLI: We're talking about 1 6 the 1953 period of time while Mr. Papageorge 17 was the supervisor for the production unit 1 8 that manufactured the plasticizers . 1 9 A. Well, I understood there certainly 2 0 was a policy that related to activity 2 1 associated with that unit, yes. Or all 2 2 units , really. The policy extended through 2 3 all, throughout the plant. 2 4 BY MR. INNELLI: 2 5 . Q . And there was a uniform policy for GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 16 WATER PCB-SD0000037784 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 the entire John F . Queeny plant? A. There was a uniform basic policy . This does not mean that the individual supervisor cannot institute additional records for his particular p u'r pose. Q Was that policy the same for other plants, a s well a s the John F . Qu e eny plant? A . The basic parts are the same, and i 1 j j < a s a n example, for example, the overtime i worked by the employees , that policy is universal, so that kind of record would be j i j the same throughout Monsanto . i Q. Let's talk about production 1 records, records dealing with the process of i producing a n end product. Was there a policy i regarding the types of records that would be maintained covering the production process? A . I don't recall any statement that I would characteri.ze a. s a poli.cy. I oust don't know of any policy. The process, j i 1 ji ii i itself , by its nature, almost dictates that I certain records be kept, such a s the weight of the batch, the quality of the material : I j produced, when itwas produced, who the operators were that were involved in its GOREREPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 17 ! * WATER PCB-SD0000037785 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 production , what tank was it sent to. I don't know that that policy was ever put together to cover all those kinds of activities . i I 1 Q . I take it you had a predecessor as a supervi sor in the produc tion unit that produced the chemical -- family of chemicals known as the plasticizer? A . Yes. I Q. Did you learn from your predecessor what type of records should be keptregarding the productionprocess? A. Oh, yes,that's part of my training period, yes. Q. Okay. How long were you the supervisor for the production unit that produced the plasticizers? A. A year or two. Q. Okay, so we're talking about in the 1954-1955 time period? II A. That's roughly so, yes. Q. What became your next title and area of responsibility? I A. I was appointed supervisor of another production unit a t that plant. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 18 WATER PCB-SD0000037786 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. And which production unit was that? ' A. This was the unit that produced the chemical, or a family of ch emicals that were starting materials for rnbber chemical's . Q . And what is the family o-f those chemicals known as? A. They were nitrochlorobenzenes . . Q. And what were your responsibilities a s the supervisor for the production unit for nitrochlorobenzenes? A. I was responsible for the produc tion of a scheduled amoun t of material of a given type, by a given date, and I was responsible for meeting the quality standards that were established for those -- for that pr oduc t. I was responsible for the costs associated withmaking that chemical. I had to keep within guidelines that were given to me. I was responsible for the safety of the employees and the preservation of the facilities . I could not abuse the equipment, could not allow it to catch on fire or to corrode or erode unnecessarily, I had to make certain that I got the proper maintenance GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 19 WATER PCB-SD0000037787 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 attention, to keep it functioning properly. I think that covers most of them, if not all of them. Q. Let's talk a little bit about quality standards , and again ,' we're talking about the time period that you were the supervisor for the produc tion unit for nitrochlorobenzenes . And we've established roughly that that began in 1954-1955. A . Yes . Q When did that time period end? A . About 1956 or s o . Q.. Okay. During that '55, ' 5 5 to ' 5 6 time period , would you explain for me how qua 1ity standards were established for the nitrochlorobenzene produc tion unit? A. I can't claim that I know all the steps in establishing those s tandards but they originate in Monsanto's research department, based on the research chemist a study of the process and its capabilities , and of course, it's influenced a lot by what quality chemical is required for the next step. In other words, in its use. Using that information, the research chemist then GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 20 WATER PCB-SD0000037788 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 puts together a list of criteria, and the indices that must be looked a t to meet those criteria, and also either develop or fined in j the literature the appropriate test procedure ^ that is used by a laboratory 'to establish the i i | j indice that was called for was, indeed , met by that particular batch of material . | Q. Would you interact with the : research chemist a s -- would you, a s the : supervisor of the production unit, interact : with the research chemist in establishing the ` quality standards? j A. I would interact only if there was a change being considered. If this is a well-established product that had been made for decades and no reason existed for changing anything, the occasion for interacting would not have happened. - Q. Did you come in contact or use a s component part PCB's while head of the production unit fornitrochlorobenzenes? : | II j i ; j A. Would you repeat the first part of your question? ; I MR. INNELLI: Sure. Why don't you -- : GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 21 ' * WATER PCB-SD0000037789 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 (The requested portion of the record read by the reporter) A . No . BY MR. INNELLI: Q . I n 1 9 5 6, what bee ame your next " title and area of responsibility? - A . I was appointed a s a maintenance supervisor a t the same plant. Q. And this is still the John F. Queeny plant? A . Yes. Q . Would you describe for me your responsibilities a s maintenance supervisor for the John F. Queeny plant? A . I was assigned the task of supervising the activities of a small cons truction group that worked throughou t the plant to install equipment on a small scale; not major construction project, but such things a s replacing a pump with a bigger pump, or a steel tank with a stainless steel tank, a pipeline of a small size with a bigger-size pipeline; that type of activity. Q. Was a chemical engineering degree a prerequisite for holding the maintenance GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST . LOUIS, MIS SOURI 22 WATER PCB-SD0000037790 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 supervisor position? A. Only in that a n engineering degree was required. It could have been mechanical, electrical, civil, or chemical. It didn't have to be a chemical engine ering degree . Q. And how long did you hold the position of maintenance supervisor? A. About a couple of years. Q . During the 1 9 56 to roughly 1957 time period, did you come in contact with P CB ' s ? A . No . Q . Did any of the individuals who were under your supervision, any of the members of the cons truetion group, come in contact with PCB's? A. Some of the electricians assigned to me on a need basis, they would not be permanently assigned to help me, they, in perf orming their duties throughout the plant, would on occasion be exposed to PCB's, yes. Q. Now, when you say in performing their duties a t the plant, would on occasion i come in contact with PCB's, would they come in contact with PCB's while under jyiur GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MIS SOUR I i! 23 WATER PCB-SD0000037791 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 supervision, or during the course of duties they might be performing for other units a t the plant? A . In that period that we're talking about, it would be under other supervision, not mine. I Q. How were PCB's used a t the John F. Queeny plant? A. There were three different uses that I recall . The obvious one was in the electrical equipment , a s a fluid in transformers , and it was present in capacitors, electrical capacitors. The other use was a s a, a fluid in compressors , and the third use was a s a fluid in heat transfer systems. Q Now, a s the maintenance supervisor, did you have oversight supervision for the transformers, compressors, and heat transfer systems a t the John F. Queeny plant? A. A s the maintenance supervisor in the period we're talking about? Q . Yes. A . No . GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 24 | ! WATER PCB-SD0000037792 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 you? Q At any other point in time, did A . Later . Q Let's continue to focus on the 19 5 6 t o 1' 5 8 time period. Did' you have any discussions with the Medical Department a t Monsanto about the effects of exposure to PCB's by the electricians a t the John F. Queeny plant? A. Not at the period, during the period we're talking about, no. Q. Prior to 1956, had you had any such conversations? A . No . Q. After you were maintenance supervisor a t the John F. Queeny facility, what became your next job title and area of A. I became the maintenance superintendent a t the same plant. Q And when was that? A . A s best as I can recall, it was period ' 57 , ' 5 8 , something like that. Q position? And for how long did you hold that GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 25 WATER PCB-SD0000037793 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A . Again, a couple, three years. Q. How did your responsibilities as superintendent, maintenance superintendent, differ from your responsibilities as maintenance supervisor? ' " A. Well, as maintenancesupervisor, I had that limited activity that I described, in terms of minor new construction . A s maintenance superintendent, I was responsible f or the activities relating to maintenance and construction for the entire plant, which involved 400 mechanics, and I use that number to describe the magnitude of the assignment. Q. During your tenure a s maintenance superintendent for the John F. Queeny plant, did you have under your jurisdiction employees who came in contact with PCB's? A . Oh, yes. Q . You identified electricians earlier a s individuals who would come in contact wi th PCB's. Were there any other job classifica tions that would come in contact with PCB's ? A. There were a t least two others that I recall . One group was referred to a s :| ! | GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 26 * WATER PCB-SD0000037794 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 the machinists . They, that was the group that worked on compressors, and the other group were the pipe fitters, who were more likely to work with the heat transfer systems. ' Q. During the time that you were maintenance superintendent, did you discuss with anyone in the Medical Department the effects of exposure to PCB's upon human beings? A. Yes . Q. What do you recall about those conversations? A. I was informed that the materials should be respected like all industrial chemicals, that the employee should not get it on his skin. If so, he should wash it off. If it got on his clothing, he should, within a reasonable period of time, change his clothing , to avoid skin contact , and the employee should also avoid breathing fumes from these materials. I was also told that there were symptoms that would serve as guidelines regarding the amount of exposure that an GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 27 WATER PCB-SD0000037795 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 employee might have had. For example, a reddened skin would indicate too much skin contact. That would be what I would call an early warning symptom. A coughing and chest pain like a severe chest cold' would be a symptom of too much exposure to the vapor. Those are very key early warning signals. Further exposure, assuming you pay no attention to those early warning signals, would be a skin breakout, referred to as chloracne, which resembles teenage acne in some respects. I was also told that if you continue to ignore these early warning symptoms, it could lead to liver damage. That was the information that I gathered talking to the plant medical doctor, as well a s the plant industrial hygienist, and reading the Monsanto documents that covered this. Q Okay. Who was the plant medical doctor a t that point in time? A . Dr. Bershe. Q please? Could you spell the last name. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 28 WATER PCB-SD0000037796 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. I believe it's B-e-r-s-h-e. I have forgotten his first name. Q. And who was the plant industrial hygienist? A. Sam Urban, U-r-b-a-n. I believe he was the one who had that title at that time. Q You made reference to Monsanto documents. Is there a particular document you have in mind? A. There's, of course, the trade literature that was published in pamphlet form. I recall reading some of those, and there were some portions of the, of the, what Monsanto calls the standard manufacturing process, and the other document, the standard operating procedure. Q Can you describe for me what the standard manufacturing process document covered, what topics? : i A . This is the technically oriented document prepared by the research chemist and ' the engineers , describing the technical features of a chemical process, what kind of equipment is used, what temperatures are GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 29 WATER PCB-SD0000037797 1 achieved, how much agitation is involved , 2 what the raw materials are, and how long must 3 it be under the temperature that is 4 specified , how samples are taken , what to 5 look for in the process . 11 is designed t o' 6 be read by a technically trained per son, 7 primarily the supervisor of the operation and 8 his superintendent , his boss, and so on. 9 Q. And this is a document that was 1 0 prepared by the Monsanto corporation , itself? 1 1 A. Yes. 1 2 Q. And it would set out warning signs 1 3 for different types of elements that may 1 4 arise from expo sure to different types of 1 5 chemicals in the workplace? 1 6 A. You say was it designed for the 1 7 different exposures? 1 8 MR. INNELLI: Why don't you read 1 9 back the question. 2 0 (The requested portion of the 2 1 record read by the reporter) 22 A . A s part of this document -- 2 3 BY MR. INNELLI: 2 4 Q. Right, that's my question. 2 5 A . -- there is a section that relates GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 30 WATER PCB-SD0000037798 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 to the proper handling of the chemicals associated with that process. Q . Okay. A. Starting material, intermediate, and the final product, and th'e waste material, so there are, depending on how many chemicals are involved, the size of that section would vary, and there would be comments in there regarding the, the safe handling of the material. Q. You also identified a document as the standard operating procedure. Could you give us an explanation of what that document entailed? A. That document is designed to be usedby the operator in his initial training, and later on for his own perusal regarding refreshing his memory regarding what valve to turn and what tank to use, and so on, and it describes tothe operator the procedure he i must follow a s he works his shift to perform the given task, and there are sections in the I i ! book that apply to the, the process as each operator gets involved. I didn't make myself clear on ; GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 31 ^ WATER PCB-SD0000037799 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that. Q . No . A. There's a beginning process with one operator, an intermediate maybe with another operator , and finally', the finishing of the product and the packaging may involve a third person. Each one can refer to his section to refresh his memory should he w an t to . Q. Now, what was your understanding of why the employees under your jurisdiction when you were maintenance superintendent should avoid breathing PCB fumes? A. Well, my understanding was you should avoid the continual, prolonged breathing of fumes . If the situation called for a need for them to be exposed for a period beyond something that they could tolerate, really it's a matter of irritation and all, they were expected and trained to put on a respirator, to go back into that area to complete their duties. Q. What was your understanding a s to why they were to avoid prolonged exposure to the fumes? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 32 WATER PCB-SD0000037800 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Oh, breathing the fumes would, of course, introduce it into their bodies through their lungs, and that was a method of entry and would create the, the skin condition I mentioned earlier', that chlora'cne symptom, and it would also create,-if it continued, would create the liver damage I mentioned earlier . . Q. So back in 1956 and 1957, you understood that prolonged exposure to PCB fumes, if continued, could result in liver conditions? A. Yes. Q. What was your next position after maintenance superintendent a t the John F. Queeny production facility? A. I was assigned a s a superintendent in the plant Technical Services Department. Q. Okay. Still a t the John Queeny plant? A . Yes. Q. And what responsibilities did you have a s superintendent in the Technical Services Department? MR. Me LAUGHLIN: I'm sorry , for GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST . LOUIS , MISSOURI 33 WATER PCB-SD0000037801 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 clarification, what time are we, now? What year? MR. INNELLI: Starting roughly 1 9 5 8. THE WITNESS: '58,' '59, '60, ' somewhere in there. - A. My responsibilities involved the supervision of a team of engineers and technicians who were assigned the duties of investigating chemical processes at the plant. BY MR. INNELLI: Q. What do you mean by investigating chemical processes at the plant? A. Reviewing the processes to determine whether there are better ways to make the same product or ways to make a better product, or ways to make more of that product, or look into procedures and equipment required to consider the manufacture of new products. Q . How many products were made at the John F. Queeny plant? A. Yes, I don't know that I ever heard a count. It was over a hundred. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI WATER PCB-SD0000037802 1 Q. Did any of them use a chlorination 2 process? 3 MR. MALIN: Well, I'll object to 4 the form of the question unless you define 5 chlorination process . I guess there are a 6 lot o f chlorination processes . T h err e are a 7 lot o f chlorination processes . Do you mean 8 process other than using nascent chlorine or 9 using nascent chlorine only? 1 0 MR. INNELLI: Well, let's get an 1 1 answer to the question a s to whether they 1 2 used a chlorinated -- chlorination process 1 3 first. 1 4 A. Not a t the Queeny plant . 1 5 BY MR. INNELLI: 1 6 Q. A t what plants were a chlorination 17 process used? 1 8 A. Certainly, the Anniston, Alabama, 1 9 plant, and the S a u g e t, Illinois, plant . 2 0 Chlorination also occurred a t Luling, 2 1 Louisiana, plant, and a s I recall , they 2 2 eventually started chlorination a t the 2 3 Muscatine, Iowa, plant. 2 4 Q. How long did you hold the position 2 5 of superintendent of the Technical Services GOREREPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI WATER PCB-SD0000037803 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Department? A. Three years or so. Q. And what was your next job title and area of responsibility? A. Next job title, s t'i 11 , again, at the same plant, was general superintendent of shipping, warehousing and utilities . I believe that' s the correct name. Q. And what did that entail? A. That group provided services to the manufacturing function other than the maintenance service. We, of course, received the raw materials , distributed to the using a t the plant , we received the various packaging materials for packaging the final product, we provided for the delivery of all kinds of raw materials, some of it liquid, some of it solid, in various kinds of containers. We picked up the finished product from the packaging line and took it to the warehouse; we picked up waste, trash hauling function, and we provided the utilities, which included electricity, water, ammonia, air, used by the different departments. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 36 i * WATER PCB-SD0000037804 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. And how long did you hold that position? A. Till 1 9 6 4 . Q. Okay, 1964, what job title and responsibilities did you ass u'm e ? A. I was appointed a general superintendent of manufacturing a t the S a u g e t , Illinois , plant . Q. And what responsibilities did that entail? A. I was responsible for the operation of a group of production units in that plant . Q. What did supervision of a group of production units entail? A. I think I can best describe it a s saying that this, the kinds of responsibilities I described earlier for the supervisor are picked up by his superintendent and in turn, by the general superintendent, the title of it I had a t that time, so this meant t h at I had the composite, not of just one produc i n g unit, but , as I remember, six or eight of them. in that -- a t that location . GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 37 WATER PCB-SD0000037805 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Earlier , in discussing the responsibilities of the supervisor of the production unit, you identified certain responsibilities , such a s quality standards -- ' A. Ye s . Q. So would that be one of the responsibilities you would have a s t h e superintendent -- excuse me, as the general superintendent of manufacturing? A . Yes. Q Cost assessment assoc i a t e , handling of associated budge ts ? A . Yes. Q Safety of employees? A . Yes. Q Preservation of the facilities? A . Yes. Q . Were PCB's one of the products that were manufactured a t the Sauget facility? A . PCB's were manufactured there but they were not my responsibility. Q they? Okay. Whose responsibility were i II GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST . LOUIS, MISS OURI 38 WATER PCB-SD0000037806 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. One of the other general superintendents. There were six general superintendents. Q. Okay. How long were you a general superintendent of manufacturing in Sauget? A. About a year and a half', as I remember. Q. So in approximately 1966, you assumed a new title with new responsibilities? A. About '65. Q. About '65? And what was that new title and area of responsibility? A. I was assigned to plant manager at Anniston, Alabama. Q. Okay, and what responsibilities did you have as plant manager? A . I think I can best describe by saying I was responsible for everything that took place at that plant, and not only within the plant fence, but its impact on the community, a s well. (Discussion off the record. ) (Recess) (The previous question and GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 39 WATER PCB-SD0000037807 1 answer were read by the 2 reporter) 3 BY MR. COHEN: iI I I 4 Q. Mr. Papageorge, what do you mean 5 by the phrase "and its impact' on the 6 community, as well"? .. ~ 7 A. It covers a full gamut of actions 8 and reactions. The way that I or my staff, 9 would hire people, the salaries, and wages 1 0 and benefits that were offered to the workers I 1 1 who, in turn, were part of the community, and 1 2 it impacted the c ommunity indirectly, of 1 3 course. The disposal of wastes had to meet 1 4 the local ordinances, as specified; the 1 5 be ha vior of my truck drivers in maneuvering 1 6 the local roads and highways, that was 1 7 important. They represented the company, and 1 8 the need to participate in local activities 1 9 such as United Fund charitable contributions , II 2 0 and not only contributing money to these i 2 1 funds , but also contributing help in terms of 2 2 Monsanto personnel being involved. The 2 3 cooperation with the, the leaders of the 2 4 community in terms of governmental affairs , 2 5 as well as the cultures, the music program GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 40 WATER PCB-SD0000037808 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that they wanted to sponsor, and Monsanto would be asked to participate, either by funding or by any other means . I'm sure I didn't cover the whole bit. We had to keep a clean plant. ' In other words, to summarize it all, we tried to be a respected, good neighbor. Q. As plant manager, to whom did you report? A. I reported to the Director of Manufacturing, located in St. Louis . Q . And who was the Director of Manufacturing? Well, let me ask this first. For what time period were you the plant manager of the Ann i s ton plant? A. 1965 through 1969. Q. During the 1965 to 1969 time period, who was it that you reported to? A. Initially, it was Robert Soden, S-o-d-e-n, and I think after, a s I recall , a couple of years later, he was replaced by Raymond Stratmeyer, S-t-r-a-t-m-e-y-e-r. Q. What were the products that were GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 41 WATER PCB-SD0000037809 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 manufactured at the Anniston plant? A . I'll try to remember them all. Q Well, let me ask this first, then, How many were there, rough 1y ? A . Hmm. A couple of dozen. Q Okay. Was, were PCB's one of the products manufactured there? A . Yes. ! | I Q. What percentage of total product manufactured at the Anniston plant was the PCB production? A. I've never calculated that percentage. The best I can do for you is to estimate. It's roughly a third of the plant's output was represented by the PCB product line. MR. MALIN: Is that in terms of pounds, or volume? THE WITNESS: I'm talking pounds , now, which is the normal way to expr ess chemical production. BY MR. INNELLI : Q. And what was the production capacity of the Anniston plant in terms of total amount of pounds or tons of product GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST . LOUIS , MISSOURI 42 WATER PCB-SD0000037810 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 produced? A. I just, I never had that number . I never added up the individual units. Q. For whom was the PCB's manufactured a t the Anniston plant? ' MR. MALIN: I'll object-to the form of the question. I don't really understand what you mean. MR. INNELLI: Okay. MR. MALIN: Are you talking about what customers , if he knows ? BY MR. INNELLI : Q. Was there a particular customer for whom the Annis ton plant produced the PCB's? A. About a thousand of them. Q. Okay, was there a dominant customer, a customer for whom a significant percentage of the total production went to? A. Yes, there was a dominant one, yes. Q. And which customer was that? A. General Electric. Q . Okay. Let's focus in on the production for General Electric. Were the GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI WATER PCB-SD0000037811 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 PCB's manufactured for General Electric manufactured pursuant to specifications that were different than the PCB's manufactured for other customers of PCB's produced a t the Anniston plant? ' A. I hesitate because other customers included all types of applications with a different need than the GE people's need so my answer would be yes, they were different . Q. Would the specifications for the production of PCB's for General Electric be provided by General Electric? A. Not for PCB's. Q. Okay. What would be -- were specifications provided by General Electric to Monsanto for the production of a produc t which utilizes PCB's? A. Yes, but let me correct my previous answer. Q. Okay. A. General Electric, when ordering straight PCB mixtures , expected Monsanto to meet their specifications. Q. Okay. When you used the phrase "straight PCB mixtures , " what do you mean? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 44 WATER PCB-SD0000037812 1 A. These are mixtures in which only 2 those chemicals that can be classified a s 3 chlorinated biphenyls are present. 4 MR. INNELLI: Let me hear the 5 answer read back. ' 6 (The requested portion of the 7 record read by the reporter) 8 BY MR. INNELLI: 9 Q. What do you mean by "those 10 chemicals classified a s chlorinated 11 biphenyls? 1 2 A. It's the material which results -- 1 3 MR. MALIN: If you want, I'll try 1 4 to describe it. 1 5 BY MR. INNELLI : 1 6 Q. Please give me averbal -- 17 A. -- that results when biphenyl , 1 8 which is a chemical unto itself, is exposed 19 to gaseous chlorine, the chlorine combines 2 0 with the biphenyl to various degrees in terms 21 of amount of chlorine. That mixture that 2 2 results from this combinationof chlorine and 2 3 biphenyl, once it's been purified and 24 distilled, is the material Ihad in mind when 2 5 I describedthat mixture classified a s GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MIS S OURI 45 WATER PCB-SD0000037813 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 chlorinated biphenyls. MR. INN E L LI : Would you read back the preceding answer? (The requested portion of the record read b'y the reporter) MR. INNELLI: Read back-the question and answer three back, four and threeback. (The requested portion of the record read by the reporter) BY MR. INNELLI: Q. Mr. Papageorge, what else would straight mixtures of PCB's be mixed with? A. It depends on the final mixture being called for. They could be mixed with mineral oil, phosphate esters, all kinds of liquid chemicals. Q. What GE products are you talking about? A. Oh, you are talking GE products. Q. Yes . A. Oh. GE products that I have in mind are products that are used in electrical equipment. Q. Such as? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST . LOUIS , MISSOURI 46 WATER PCB-SD0000037814 1 A. That contain PCB's and had the 2 trademark , the General Electric tr ademark of 3 Pyrano1 . 4 Q. So you would receive fromGeneral 5 Electric its specifications for the 6 manufacture of Pyranol? '" 7 MR. McMANUS: Objection to the 8 form of the question. 9 MR. COHEN: What's the objection? 1 0 What part are you objecting to? 1 1 MR. McMANUS: Leading. 1 2 MR. MALIN: You can answer the 1 3 question. 1 4 MR. COHEN: Answer the questions . 1 5 THE WITNESS: I forgot the 1 6 question. 1 7 MR. COHEN: Read the question 1 8 back. 1 9 (The requested portion of the 2 0 record read by the reporter) 2 1 A . We did receive from General 2 2 Electric the characteristics, properties that 2 3 they expe c ted the Pyranol mixture that they 2 4 were ordering would meet. 2 5 BY MR. INNELLI: GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MISSOURI 47 WATER PCB-SD0000037815 1 Q What was the procedure followed 2 between General Electric and Monsanto for the j 3 conveyance of what characteristics you j ! 4 expect -- they expected, G E expected Pyranol jI _i 5 to mee t? ' 'j 6 MR. MALIN: I'll object-on the j l 7 grounds that it's vague to me, but if you i!i 8 think you understand it, go ahead and an swer j 9 it. 10 A. I think I understand the question. 1 1 The procedure could vary from time to time, 1 2 from person to person involved, G E person, 1 3 Monsanto person . 11 could be, for example , a 1 4 case of where the field representative of ! ! 1 5 Monsanto calling the right office a t General j 16 Electric would talk to the right person and | 1 7 they would discuss the properties required 1 8 and the recipe for making the mixture , and 1 9 that person would convey it back to St. Louis 2 0 and the mixture would be prepared, or it I j j 2 1 could be a case of a research person a t 2 2 General Electric talking to a research person ! 23 in Monsanto, and the same kind of dialogue j 24 taking place. The net result , however , is ! 25 that when a given mixture was acceptable to ! i '! GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS S OUR I ! WATER PCB-SD0000037816 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 General Electric, they would be designated by their trademark, Pyranol with a given letter and number designation, and they would forward to Monsanto, eventually the plant would receive the, I'm going to call it the recipe for making it and the conditions which that mixture must meet before it's shipped. EXAMINATION BY MR. COHEN: Q. They start off by giving you a performance specification? A. I would not call it a performance specification . Q. What did they tell you? Did they tell you what they wanted the fluid to do? A. I have a little difficulty with what they wanted it to do, in this application. Are you saying, "We need this fluid to serve as a transformer fluid"? That's one definition. Q. That's a term they may give you that information . The question I 'm asking you is, what information did they give you: Physical characteristics, flash point, viscosity? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MISSOURI 49 WATER PCB-SD0000037817 1 A. Viscosity, specific gravity, 2 dielectric constant, I've forgotten them all. 3 It's a full page. 4 Q. But they were basically 5 performance requirements that' the fluid had 6 to meet? ~ 7 A. I would not call them all 8 performance requirements . 9 Q. Some of them you would call 1 0 physical characteristics? 1 1 A. Physical characteristics , yes. 1 2 Q. Such a s flash point? 1 3 A . And its color, for example, is not 1 4 a performance so much a s it is a physical 1 5 characteristic. 1 6 Q. Who determined the combination of 17 chemicals that would constitute the product? 1 8 A. General Electric. 1 9 Q. So when you said they gave you a 2 0 recipe for the product, is that what you are 21 telling us, that they gave you a description 2 2 of the chemicals that they felt would achieve 2 3 these performance and physical 2 4 characteristics? 2 5 A. That is correct. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 50 WATER PCB-SD0000037818 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. And then you formulated the c ompound for them and sent it back to them for tests? A . Yes. Q Did you test it? ' A . Yes. - . -- Q . What type of testing did you do ? A . If the material was intended for use in a capacitor, in some instances the proposed mixture would actually be put in capacitors by Monsanto technical people and tested in Monsanto's lab. Q. So you put it in the capacitor, you'd energize the capacitor, you'd run the capacitor through various cyclings to see if the dielectric fluid reached the performance requirements? A. That is right. Now, this was not done in every case, but enough so that the Monsanto technical group kept up-to-date in this technology . That was the primary purpose for doing it. Q. Monsanto was doing it to find out if the product that they were manufacturing for General Electric, a customer of theirs , GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 51 WATER PCB-SD0000037819 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 was capable of performance different from their own product? A. I don't know what you have with reference with their own product. Q . Well, they sold A r'o clors and dielectric fluid. ' A. Well, yes, to answer to that is yes. The Aroclor product line was different from the Pyranol product line. Q. One was your product, one was GE's product . A. That is true, yes, but one was a mixture of different kinds of chemicals , whereas the Monsanto line was a mixture of the same family of chemicals. Q . Well, when you say a mixture of the same family of chemicals, it was all PCB's that were supposed to be distilled to a point that it reached a certain degree of chlorination. At least you intended it to be all PCB's, didn't you? A. Yes. Yes. Q . You didn't intend it to be anything else? A. That is true. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 52 WATER PCB-SD0000037820 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. You didn't intend it to contain water? A . True. Q. You didn't intend it to contain any other chemical other than' polychlorinated biphenyls? - A. Correct. Q . It did contain other chemicals? A. Sure. Q. Sure. It contained dibenzofurans , for example? A. Yes. Q. Chlorinated naphthalenes? A. Yes, plus others we never found. Q. Terphenyls? A. Yes, but these are trace quantities, now. They're not -- Q. I und e r s t and. A. They're not dominant at all. Q. But you intended it to be, you intended Aroclors to be PCB's. A. Yes. Q. You intended Pyranols to be PCB's and something else. A. Yes. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 53 WATER PCB-SD0000037821 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. And you are telling me that your research department would then check the performance of Pyranols to stay up-to-date . A Yes. Q . To what? Find out' if Pyr anol " performed better than Aroclor? -- A. That's one of their objectives. Q. What were theothers? A. The others, to stay abreast of the capacitor manufacturing technologies, because there were changes in the, the craft paper used in the windings, there were new plastic films being evaluated , and I'm not a capacitor designer , but I 'm aware that there are change s through time that do take place , and for Monsanto to be a supplier of a n ingredient that goes into this produc t , its technical people were expected to stay tuned in to the evolving technology. How is this new craft paper behaving in the presence of our old product or should we change our produc t to make the combination better , and so on. Q. So when you told me you were testing the P y r a n o1 , you were testing the GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 54 WATER PCB-SD0000037822 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 P y r a n o1 to see how it performed with changing components of the capacitor or the other device in which the dielectric fluid was ultimately to be used. A. That was, that was one of the pr ogr ams, yes. ' ! i iI [ Q And did the same thing with Aroclors, I assume. A . Yes. Q. What were you doing to assure that the P y r a n o1 product you were preparing for GE was the product that GE ordered? A. It met the quality control tests that were run. Q. How do you know that? A. How do I know that? Q. Yes. A. I have -- there were copies of the quality control laboratory results that are certified by the chemist of that laboratory. Q. Starting when? A. Shoot, from the beginning. Q. So a s long a s you were associated with Mons an to Chemical Company, you ran a Q C lab in every production facility in which you GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS S OUR I 55 WATER PCB-SD0000037823 1 were associated which had certified results? 2 A . Yes. 3 Q . Were they just performance specs , 4 they meeting performance specs? 5 A . Some I would classify a s ' 6 performance specs, others were physical 7 properties. It depends on the chemical being 8 lookedat. 9 Q. Did you do qualitative analysis? 1 0 A. Well, that is part of the, the 1 1 quality control -- 1 2 Q. So the answer is yes. 1 3 A. Yes. 1 4 Q. Did you do quantitative analysis? 1 5 A. Yes. 1 6 Q. Did you keep records of them? 1 7 A. Yes. 1 8 Q. Records were kept of the analysis 1 9 of samples of production product a t all the 20 plants with which you were associated since 2 1 you started in Monsanto? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Where are those records? 2 4 A. I don't know. 25 Q . Did you see them a t the time you GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI WATER PCB-SD0000037824 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 worked there? A . Certainly. Q . Did they print out what they found in the substance they were testing? Did they keep a record of what they f o'u n d , qualitatively and quantitatively? A. Yes. Q. So if they sampled a production batch of 1242, they analyzed that it had an overall assay of 42 percent chlorinated polychlorinated biphenyls? A. Well, the evaluation, the information would lead to that conclusion, but the item across the page would not be worded just that way. It would say "Chlorine contents, 42.3 percent," and the standard is minimum 4 2 . There ' s a double column that it's compared -o. What's the maximum? A . I've forgotten. Q All right. A . And when I picked 42, it was -Q All right, so you had a range? A . Yes. Q . You had an acceptable production GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 57 ; WATER PCB-SD0000037825 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 range. A . Yes. Q. You would call something Aroclor 1242 if it had a degree of chlorination between X and Y? ' A. Correct. -- Q. Whatever they were. A. Correct. Q. Maybe 40 to 43 percent or something like that. A. (Nods head in affirmative manner) . Q. And what you did is, you sampled the material and you tested it. A. Yes. Q. How often did you sample it? A. Each batch of material that was manufactured was sampled. Q. Each production line run? A. Each production tankful. The tank was held intact until the sample went to the laboratory, the analytical chemist looked at it, and found that it was acceptable, and then that tankful would be transferred to a bigger storage tank and blended with the rest of the production. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 58 WATER PCB-SD0000037826 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Tell me about the production process . A. I'm sorry? Q. Youwere going tosaysomething, sir. Tell me what you were going to say first. Have you finished your a n swer? A. No, I was going to say that in addition to that quality control check, there is another one taken when the package is filled, whether it be a steel drum of a material, or a tank car or tank truckful . Q. Tank wagon; right . So you would sample the material on itsway to the tank wagon the rail car or the barrel? A. Before it leaves the plant, it gets another look. Q For what? A . For the same properties. g. So you had a second QC check, same characteristics? A. Corre c t. Q. So you arelookinga t physical characteristics and performance specs again. A . Right . Q. Do you keep arecord of that? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI WATER PCB-SD0000037827 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A . Yes. Q Where? A . I don't know. Q But as long as you were associated with Monsanto, those records 'were kept? A . Yes. -! Q process. A. Tell me about the production Did you do this in lots? Lots? 1 ' Q quantity. A. Lots; some sort of lot of a Did you, for example, did you -- Yes . ! i !! j Q -- induce into the, into the ; crucible or whatever it was in which you create -- what do you do? You create a vacuum in a chamber and you introduce into that chamber liquid biphenyl and gaseous chlorine? A . Well, I don't know you start off by creating a vacuum. We didn't create a vacuum. Q. You do it in the absence of oxygen, don't you? A . Yes. . Q So you exhaust somehow or another GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 60 WATER PCB-SD0000037828 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 the air that would be in the chamber. A. Right . You bubble some chlorine through it. Q. And that takes the air out. A. And then you pump in the biphenyl rightafterthat. " Q. Do you do it in measured lots? In other words, do you introduce a hundred gallons, a thousand gallons, or whatever -- A. Yes. Q. -- of biphenyl? A. Each batch, is the expression commonly used, consists of a given amount of material. It's a fixed amount, and that is really selected based on the equipment size, how big a pot are you going to make it in. Q. Okay. A. So there are batches that are designated by number, and you used the word "lot." The "lot" designation was reserved for shipments, packaging the material, so many drums -- it came out of a tank, it was called a lot -- and given a number so you could trace the records back on what day was it packaged, and who packaged it, and what GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 61 WATER PCB-SD0000037829 1 sample was taken, and who analyzed it, and so 2 on . 3 Q. But those lots already came out of 4 the finished product storage facility? 5 A. Yes . ' 6 Q. So it's no longer a batch in there 7 anymore? 8 A. Correct. 9 Q. It's nowjust astorage, a 10 finished product. 1 1 A. Correct. 1 2 Q. You dealt with batches, as you 13 called it, by number, in theproduction 1 4 process . 1 5 A . Correct 1 6 Q. The production process was not a 17 continuous process then? 1 8 A. No, I would not call it a 1 9 continuous process. 2 0 Q. I mean, it's not like Hershey bars 2 1 where they just keep injecting chocolate into 2 2 the mold and they keep dropping on to a tray 2 3 and keep on going. You had to stop the 2 4 process when it was finished , take the 2 5 finished product out, or send it to the next GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS S OUR I 62 WATER PCB-SD0000037830 1 2 3 4 5 6 n 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 step, distillation or whatever, and then you could start again by bubbling your chlorine gas into the pot, and then introducing your batch of biphenyl. A . Yes. ' Q And that was the process'. A . Yes. Q . So you sampled each batch -- A . Yes. Q -- and you kept QC records -- A . Yes. Q And those records exist. A . Existed. Q Existed. A . I cannot speak for today. Q . When was the first time your QC laboratory tested for impurities or contaminants in the product? A. As best I recall, we started looking for specific contaminants in 1970. Following a report we got from Europe . That's the earliest date that I'm aware of where contaminants were considered, the possibility for the presence of contaminants was considered. ; : j i i ! ! : j I i j j i j ; I ; 1 GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 63 : * WATER PCB-SD0000037831 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Well, prior to that time, you didn't look for any contaminants or appearance? A. Not as a routine. If the material did not meet the specifications called for, we would suspect that it was conta m'i n a t e d , and in order to purify that bad batch, we would take the necessary steps to identify the contaminant, whether it be water, or metal, iron, or whatever affected it. Q. Something got intoit in the process? A. But something gotinto it. But there were no routine analytical steps taken to look for contaminants , a s such. Q. Prior to 1970. A * Well, the r e s e arch program started in 1970, and I don't know that routine contaminant analyses were ever placed in practice as long as PCB ' s were manufactured. Q How did you know what was in the PCB ' s ? A . I ' m sorry? Q How did you know what was in the PCB ' s prior t o 1 97 0 ? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST . LOUIS, MISSOURI WATER PCB-SD0000037832 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Of course, starting in 1968, '69, somewhere in there, when the methodology was available , the analytical chemist was able to identify the different kinds of PCB's by chlorine number , the 1 c h1o rin e, the 2 chlorine , and so on. Prior to that, I personally don't know how the chemist could distinguish between the different PCB's in the mixture. They would report the total chlorine in the c ompo site by percent by weight. Q. It was by weight? A. By weight. Q. So if they had 4 2 percent by weight , that was 1 2 4 2 ? A. That's what Monsanto called it, yes. Q. And if they got more chlorine into it, which I gather they were able to control in the production process to some degree, it would be 54, or 60, or 68, or whatever? A . That ' s correct. Q. You said they did a purification process . After it came out of the pot, it went into a distilling process for GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 65 WATER PCB-SD0000037833 1 purification. What were you distilling off? 2 A. The good material that we wanted. 3 Q. You were taking off the good 4 material , and I guess on the way through the 5 distilling process, you were fractionalizing 6 off and discarding other materials? 7 A . 11 's the other way around. What ' s 8 left in the pot after you distill off the 9 vapors and condense them and collect the 1 0 material you are looking for -- back in the 11 pot, you have what are called still b o 11 o m s 1 2 and they look like road tar. Black, m i x t u r e s 1 3 of many, many chemicals . We haven ' t a n a 1 y z e d 1 4 all of them. 1 5 Q. Never even found out what it was? 1 6 A . No . I ! i 17 Q . So the still bottoms, t h e r e ' s ! 1 8 wher e we're going to find lots o f 1 9 naphthalenes and quarter phenyls , and things 2 0 like that? 21 A. Your guess is a s good a s mine, i 2 2 It's a real mixture. 2 3 Q. What do they do with that? 2 4 A. That was put in, for some of them, 2 5 there was a market for it. It was sold a s ii GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS , MIS SOUR I 66 WATER PCB-SD0000037834 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Montar, M-o-n-t-a-r. Q. I remember that name. A. Whereas others were put in Monsanto's landfill; disposed of. Q. Where is that? ' A. Well, there's a t least two of them. One is at the Anniston plant has one, and at the Sauget plant has one. Q. Who determined the process of distillation to yield the purified product? A. The research chemist would establish the conditions under which the distillation should take place. Q. That preceded you? A. Oh, yes, that goes back to 1929 or so Q. What else were you looking for when you were doing quality control collection on the Pyranol product? A. What else in additionto what? Q. Well, you told me that you were, you were testing the product so that you could stay up-to-date . Why else were you testing it? A . I'm-- GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 67 WATER PCB-SD0000037835 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q Have I confused you? A . A little bit. Q I don't want to confuse you. I'll ask a different question. Let's see i f w e can get to this one. Were y o'u doing qu a 1 i t y control checks on the Pyranol? ` A . Yes. Q Were you doing the same sort o f analysis on the Pyranol that you were doing on the Aroclor, which is, quantitative and qualitative analysis looking for performance characteristics and physic a 1 characteristics? A. Yes. Q. And you did that on a regular quality control basis before the product got shipped to G E. A. Correct . Q. Who put the labels on that said GE ? A . The operator assigned the tank car filling function or the druming function. Q . Somebody in Monsanto? A . Yes. Q So Monsanto put the GE labels on? A . I don't want any misunderstanding. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 68 WATER PCB-SD0000037836 1 This is a label that exhibited the G E 2 trademark, with reference to the fact that 3 that trademark is a GE-registered trademark, 4 but it also had on it the Monsanto logo, 5 identifying it, Monsanto, a s the source of - 6 thematerial. . . .. ~ 7 Q. Who supplied those labels? Do you 8 know? Did GE supply them or Monsanto? . 9 A. Monsanto designed the label, got 1 0 GE's approval , if you will, or concurrence 1 1 that it was proposed, and then Monsanto would 1 2 place orders with the, either the in-house 1 3 printing department or outside shops, to have 1 4 them printed and then sent to the two plants 1 5 for use. 1 6 Q. So when the quantity, a lot, 17 whatever it was, of drums, 55 gallons each, fr 1 8 or whatever came down to the property person 1 9 in the department, if labels got applied? 20 A. Yes. i i 21 Q. And they went out the door as GE i 2 2 products? 2 3 A. I have some trouble with the 2 4 expression , " GE product. " It's a product ii I 25 manufactured to GE specifications for use a s I ! i GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI i 69 WATER PCB-SD0000037837 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 GE determined. Q. And sale by GE as they determined. A . Yeah . Q. You didn't control it after that point. - A. Once it left the plant gate, we had no control. Q. Was this GE's? A. Unless it was going to a customer of GE's. Q. If they had paid for it, obviously, they owned it, not GE? A. Depending on who ordered it and who paid for it. Q. Okay, fine. Now, let's get back to the recipe issue. What do those recipes look like that GE gave you? A. I don't rememberthat they took any specific form. It was just a, a listing of the ingredients and the amounts, the ratios of one ingredient to the other to be put together , to form the composite, the desired end product. Q. They didn't tell you how to make it? i i i i i ! GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. ' LOUIS, MISSOURI 70 1 'it/ WATER PCB-SD0000037838 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A . No , they did use a word like "blend in tank " for so many hours . Q . Oh , did they? A . Based on their experience back i n their labs. I say hours ; mi n'u tes, maybe , timeperiod. . ... Q. Well, the question I'm trying to get a t is, did they give you the manufacturing process? A. They gave us the blending process Q. All right, so you call it blending. A. Yeah. Q. That is, you took chemicals, one of which you manufactured called PCB's -- A. Correct. Q ~ - and one of whic h you bought from someone else, whatever it was called. A. Yes. Q. And youblended them? A. Yes. Q. And out came Pyranol, ormaybe there were two produc ts that you mixed together and got, or three, or four, whatever. I I j ] : j j i 1 GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 71 WATER PCB-SD0000037839 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Yeah. Yeah. Q. But the process of blending , they told you how to do it? A. They told us, they gave us a n idea of what they determined in t h'e i r 1 aboratory was appropriate to reach that endpro d u c t. Q. Well, did you test that to see if there were better ways to do it? A. Oh, yes. Yes, but the process is so simple and straightforward that there isn't too much that youcan introduce in the way of new technology. Q. This is a low-tech job here, this blend? A. It certainly is. Q. Pour55 gallons of this and 40 gallons of that,mix it together, and you come up with "X" percentage of the mixture, or a mixture with "X" percentage of each component . A. That's, that's basically it, yes. Q. But they told you to blend, not how to blend it? They told you how to blend it, G E told you how to blend it? Monsanto didn't decide how to blend it? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 72 WATER PCB-SD0000037840 1 A. They did, when they conveyed their 2 specifications to us, will describe the 3 simple technology involved. I don't know how 4 else to put it. Yes, they did say blend it, 5 mix it, and take samples , and' have it run in 6 the laboratory , and it must meet t Ire s e specs . 7 If not, you add a little bit more of this or 8 a little bit more of that until it meets it. 9 Q. Do you know if G E ever 1 0 manufactured P y r a n o1 themselves? 11 A. I understand they did, and they, 1 2 evenwhen they brought the, bought the 1 3 finished product , they had the potential , but 1 4 I have no way of knowing whe ther they 1 5 exercised that, of still blending their own. 1 6 Q. After they bought P y r a n o1 , they 1 7 could blend it again with something else? 1 8 A. They could, they had the 19 capability of buying the PCB mixture from 2 0 Monsanto, and the other ingredients from 2 1 other companies, in their own facilities and 2 2 blend their own P y r a n o1. 2 3 Q. Got you. They could have bought 2 4 A r o c1o r from you? 2 5 A . Yes. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MIS SOURI WATER PCB-SD0000037841 1 Q. And whatever else they were 2 putting in their mix, hexachlorobenzene or 3 whatever the heck it was, and they could mix 4 it together themselves? 5 A. Correct. ' " 6 Q. Did they do that? Do- you know? 7 A . I a m under a n impression, a n 8 unde rstanding that at one time, that' s t h e 9 only way it was done. Then Monsanto pick e d 10 up some of it and both were doing it. I have 1 1 no way of knowing when, if ever, GE phased 1 2 out of the blending altogether. 1 3 Q. But you, Monsanto, most certainly 1 4 b1 ended this product for GE for a period of 1 5 time. 16 A . Yes. 17 Q. They never gave you a, what I 1 8 would cons ider a standard manual that 1 9 contained manu facturing processes for the 20 creation of Pyranol? 2 1 A. I have not seen anything like 2 2 that. 2 3 Q. You did, however, have your own 24 standard process manua1 for the manufacture 25 of the Aroclors? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI WATER PCB-SD0000037842 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. And the Pyranols. Q. Was that like the manua1 that was prepared for the Aroclors, or was it as you described, a low-tech operation that -- sort just of a little pamphlet? ' " A. Well, the intent is ide n-t i c a 1 ; the degree of complexity is different. One is the size of a big telephone book and the other is a t h i n pamphlet, because of the difference in what's required. Q S o the GE manual doesn ' t , as the Aroclor manual would be, start off with chlorine gas and a large pot, and introduce biphenyl, but rather it starts off with, start off with Aroclor 12 4 2 and add the following, o r s omething t o that effect? MR . McMANUS: I object to the term "GE manual." BY MR. COHEN: Q. You know what I meant; the manual for the GE product. A. This is the Monsanto manual to guide the operators on how to produce a product specified by General Electric. Q. Right. But in that manual, you GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI WATER PCB-SD0000037843 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 don't start off with how you make Aroclor A . No . Q. You start off with Aroclor. A. Of a given quality. And chlorobenzene of a given quality, and so on, and you'd blend them in given amou n't s . That's all. Q. What I'm trying to understand is, that GE never gave you instructions in the detail for the blending of their product that was like the manual you had yourselves for the manufacture of Aroclor. MR. MALIN: Object to the form of the question because I don't understand it. MR. COHEN: I'm sorry you don't understand it. MR. MALIN: He's testified the manufacture of Aroclor involves a chemical process where you actually combine atoms, and the GE manual was merely taking already-combined chemicals and mixing them together, forming nothing more than a blend. MR. COHEN: So what's your objection? Are you saying they couldn't give them a book that said start at the beginning, GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 76 WATER PCB-SD0000037844 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 start with chlorine gas? MR. MALIN: No, the two are not equatable as manuals, so I don't understand the question. MR. COHEN : Well, 'I'm trying to find out whether they ever gave- them instructions that would have essentially taken them back to step 1. MR. MALIN: On how to make Aroclors . MR. COHEN: Right . A . No . MR. MALIN: Okay. BY MR. COHEN: Q Let me show you a document, sir, that has been marked on more than one occasion. We'll make a copy that we can mark here today. Have we marked anything yet with you? This is Papageorge 1. Papageorge 1 also known as a/k/a, Kelly 3, a/k/a Kaley something or another. We'll mark it. (Papageorge Deposition Exhibit 1 marked for identification.) GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 77 WATER PCB-SD0000037845 1 (Witness peruses said 2 document.) 3 BY MR. COHEN: 4 Q. Did you ever see anything like 5 thatbefore? '" 6 A . This is the first time. I-' ve seen 7 this document. 8 Q. That particular document? 9 A. Yes. 1 0 Q. Okay, have you ever seen anything 1 1 likethat before where they gave you 1 2 information that they wanted this material 1 3 blended like that? 1 4 A. I have seen information that gave 1 5 me the essence of their needs, whereas this 1 6 document seems to show the changes in 1 7 mixtures through a period from 1932 to '76. 1 8 Q. And that refers, apparently, to a 1 9 number of General Electric plants. Those are 2 0 not Monsanto plants identified there, are 2 1 they? 2 2 A. There are four plants listed here 2 3 that are, I have to assume they are General 2 4 Electric. They are not Monsanto. 2 5 Q. That's my question. But what I'm GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 78 WATER PCB-SD0000037846 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 asking you, sir, is whether they gave you information in the form of a request for a blend that looked like this, such as, "Make us a product that we're going to call Pyranol 1488 that's 60 percent Aroclor 1260 and 40 percent tetrachlorobenzene"? '~ A. Yes. Q. And/or make us a product that we're going to call 1467 which is 60 percent Aroclor 1260, 40 percent tetrachlorobenzene, and let's see, what is that, "point" one-eighth of one percent, I guess that is, tin tetraphenyl . A. (Nods head in affirmative manner) . Q. They gave you specs like that? A. Yes . Q. You know that adds up to over a hundred percent? A. It's supposed to add up to a hundred. Q . Well , it adds up to a hundr ed and an eighth. A . Well , okay. Q Just push the barrel, the bungs down on the barrel, I guess. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 79 WATER PCB-SD0000037847 1 Well, let s show you this document 2 which we'll mark a s Papageorge -- 3 MR . COX: Just a moment. Before I I 4 you pass Papageorge 1, did that document have 5 a title on it? 6 MR. COHEN: "Pyranol Co flipositions , 7 General Electric Company, 1 9 3 2 to 1 97 6. " 8 This will have a label on it that will say 9 Papageorge 1 and be attached to the 1 0 deposition transcript. 1 1 There ' 11 be no question that this 1 2 was Papageorge 1; is that right, Mr. Jordan? 1 3 BY MR. COHEN: 1 4 Q . Now let's look another a t document 1 5 which we're going to mark a s Papageorge 2 . 1 6 (Papageorge Deposition 17 Exhibit 2 marked for 1 8 identification.) 1 9 (Witness peruses said 2 0 document.) 2 1 THE WITNESS: I've reviewed. 2 2 BY MR. COHEN: 2 3 Q. Have you ever seen anything like 24 Papageorge 2 before? 2 5 A. Yeah, I recall seeing a similar GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI WATER PCB-SD0000037848 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 type of document, yes. Q. What you are saying is you are not sure you saw this one but you saw something like it. A. Correct. I Q. What is it? How would y o u describe it for us? A. I would des cribe this as a copy of a Westinghouse Electri c Corporation specification for one of the, of their products which they ca 11 Inerteen, which they expect to meet the lis ted properties to be conducted under a spec ified procedure, ASTM D-9 01 . Q. The testing is to be conducted under ASTM 901. A . Correct. Q To make sure that in accordance with that test protocol, these properties. I 1 physical and chemical, and electrical, are met. I A . Correct. Q Did GE give you a document like that for Aronols, too? A . Yes. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MISSOURI 81 WATER PCB-SD0000037849 1 Q. So inaddition to seeing a 2 document that contained information like the 3 information contained on Papageorge 1, GE 4 also gave you a document that contained 5 information like the information contained on 6 Papageorge 2? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q . And then youwent about blending 9 the product and testing it to make sure that 1 0 in accordance with their request, it met 1 1 these qualifications? Or that it had these 12 properties, if you will? 1 3 A. Yes. 14 MR. COX: I would likethe record 1 5 to reflect something. You identified 1 6 Papageorge 1 as Kaley Exhibit 3. Kaley 17 Exhibit 3 was a multipage document. 1 8 Papageorge 1 is a one-page document. 19 MR. MALIN: Well, hewasn't sure 20 if he said Kaley 3 or Kaley 4. I don't think 2 1 Mr . -- 22 MR. COX: It's a piece of Kaley 3. 2 3 BY MR. COHEN: 2 4 Q. How often did you test the 2 5 production of the Pyranol or the Inerteen to GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI WATER PCB-SD0000037850 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 assure yourselves and your customers, Wes tinghouse and GE, that the product met the properties specified? A. As I indicated earlier, they were tested when the particular batch of material was prepared, and they were tested" again before the material was shipped. Q. Same process as Aroclor, then? A. Yes. Q. Every batch got tested by that QC lab? A. Yes. Q. And if I understand your testimony correctly, no one ever tested still bottoms? A. I don't know that I said that. Q. Well, don't let me put words in your mouth. Please tell me, did you the test still bottoms? A. No one tested still bottoms to determine its exact composition. They were tested to meet some very basic properties, and I don't claim to remember them all but I do know that they did test for such things as its viscosity and its -- I forget the expression now, the point at which it GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 83 WATER PCB-SD0000037851 1 hardens , the temperature a t which it softens , 2 the softening point, I think that's the right 3 exp re s sion , and its gravity, how heavy is it. 4 Q. Specific gravity? 5 A. Specific gravity. ' I believe those 6 were the three basic characteristies that 7 were tested for that Montar that was sold. 8 Q . What was M o n t a r used for to your 9 understanding? 1 0 A. I understand it was used in some 1 1 roofing tar compounds, it was used to some 1 2 degree in some road a s fault blends , some of 1 3 it ended up in some of the old asphaltic 1 4 tiles used on floors, aspha 1t-based tiles. I 1 5 don't propose to know all the uses but those 1 6 are examples of those that I recall. 1 7 Q. After the mid to late Sixties when 1 8 you developed the analytical ability, did 1 9 anybody test Montars to see what was in it? 20 A. No, because those analytical 21 abilitieswere specific to PCB's, not to this 2 2 unknown mixture of the Mo n t a r s . 23 Q. What was it about the analytical 2 4 ability that restricted them to PCB's? 2 5 A. 0 h, it's, has many facets to it. GOREREPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 84 WATER PCB-SD0000037852 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 One is how the sample is prepared, what is used in the gas chromatograph to absorb the material -- I'm not an analytical chemist but I'm sharing with you my understanding -- Q. I 'm not a n a n a 1y tica 1 chemist , either, so I'll take it for what it's worth. A. How it responds as this material flows through it and graphs the peaks and valleys on a chart, those were all a result of a very complicated and specifically-designed procedure, tested over and over again to determine its specificity to PCB's, and it would not apply to an unknown chemical "X" that might exist in the Montars. The graph that would come out would be just meaningless. Q. So in other words, in the mid to late Sixties, the gas chromatograph was being used to nowanalyze or a procedure had been developed using gas chromatography to analyze acompound for PCB's, for PCB content? A. Gas chromatography was used for other chemicals, not just PCB's. An example is DDT . Q. And it predated the late Sixties. GOREREPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 85 WATER PCB-SD0000037853 1 A . Oh, yes, but the technology 2 continues to this day to be improved, so more 3 and more chemicals are being studied that 4 way. I j 5 Q. And to greater and' greater degrees 6 of sensitivity or detection limits 7 A. Correct. 8 Q. But by the Sixties, sometime in. 9 the Sixties, late Sixties, the procedure as 1 0 you described it for detecting and 1 1 quantifying PCB's had emerged? 1 2 A. That is correct. 1 3 Q. Has anyone ever attempted to 1 4 analyze the Montars to find out what's in 1 5 them? 1 6 A. Not to my knowledge. 17 Q. Let's go further. I said Montars, 1 8 The still bottoms . 1 9 A. Not to my knowledge. 2 0 Q. And that's true to this date? 2 1 A. As far as I know. 2 2 Q. But Montar was sold as a product? 2 3 A. Yes. 24 Q. And other than the characteristics 2 5 that you described earlier, its content was I GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 86 WATER PCB-SD0000037854 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 unknown? A . Basically so, yes. Q . As a chemist, sir, prior to you have determined , knowing the ingredients that make up polychlorinated biphenyls, and knowing the process"of manufacturing polychlorinated biphenyls, that polychlorinated dibenzofurans could be formed in the manufacturing process? MR. COHEN: Hold that thought. (Pause for telephone call.) MR. MALIN: I'm going to object to the question as speculative, but I'm going to permit the witness to answer it. MR. COHEN: Thank you. MR. MALIN: And the witness has not testified that he is a chemist. He's a chemical engineer. (Pause) (Recess) A. I'm not a pure chemist. I do have basic chemical knowledge. You are asking me to speculate, frankly. I know the process , having lived with it, in a sense . I just cannot, in a n intellectual fashion , believe GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 87 WATER PCB-SD0000037855 1 that the presence of oxygen is of such an 2 order of magnitude, and that the conditions 3 are such that the furans you mentioned or 4 other oxygen-containing compounds -- 5 BY MR. COHEN: '~ 6 Q . Such as dioxins? . 7 A. Well, no, there's phosgene. You 8 could go in, you could fill an 9 encyclopedia -- 1 0 _ Q. There's quite a number? 1 1 A. -- with all kinds of combinations 12 ofcarbon, hydrogen and oxygen. It just 1 3 would have beendifficult to intellectually 1 4 accept the concept that yes, you are forming 1 5 some oxygen compounds in this particular tank 1 6 under these conditions. No, I would not have 17 arrived at thatspeculative point. 1 8 Q. So from your understanding of 19 chemistry, the chemical you were 2 0 manufacturing and the process involved prior 2 1 to 1970, you would not have suspected that 2 2 you would be forming oxygen-containing 2 3 compounds such as furans? 2 4 A. That is true. 2 5 Q. There was, however, from time to GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST . LOUIS , MISSOURI 88 WATER PCB-SD0000037856 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 time, testing done for water in the as a contaminant of the PCB's? A. Yes, but this is in a cold batch in a tank with water condensation coming, falling off the side of the tank into the material, not in the process. ' Q. Not in the process batch? A . No . Q. You aren't looking for water in the process batch? A. No, at 400 degrees Fahrenheit you wouldn't expect water to survive. Q. I see. What steps did you make or add to your quality control procedures subsequent to the ability to analyze with the gas chromatograph, the product? MR. MALIN: Object to that question on the grounds I really don't understand it. MR. COHEN: Well, let's ask it this way. BY MR. COHEN: Q. Did you make any changes to your QC procedures? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST . LOUIS, MIS SOUR I 89 WATER PCB-SD0000037857 1 A. At the time this material was 2 detected in Monsanto's product, I was no 3 longer involved with the PCB issue. I do not 4 know whattook place in the operation since 5 then. ' 6 Q. You are talking about w hen the 7 furans were discovered. 8 A. Ye s . 9 Q. I'm speaking of the time when the 1 0 process or procedure was developed for using 1 1 gas chromatographs to analyze PCB's were 1 2 developed in the late Sixties, what changes 1 3 did you make in your QC procedures, if any? 1 4 A. None. 1 5 MR. MALIN: I'll object -- all, 1 6 right, never mind. My objection is that you 1 7 are saying using the gas chromatograph to 1 8 analyze PCB's. It was to analyze for PCB's, 1 9 is my understanding, unless that ' s incorrect . 2 0 BY MR. COHEN: 2 1 Q. To determine the presence of the 2 2 PCB's and the particular, I guess the 2 3 particular PCB compound that you were 24 detecting; is that correct? Is that a 2 5 correct way of saying it? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI WATER PCB-SD0000037858 1 A . I understand it, yes. j 2 Q . You understand it, I understand ! 3 it . 4 A . Yeah. ! 5 Q I think we're talking about the 6 same basic terms. And to your knowledge no 7 changes were made in the QC procedures? 8 A . No . 9 Q. Either on the Aroclor product or 1 0 the Pyranol product or the Inerteen product? 1 1 A . That is correct. 12 Q Subsequent to the time when the . 1 3 gas chromatograph was further developed to 1 4 detect the presence of the furans, what, if 1 5 any, changes were made in your QC procedures? 1 6 A . I don't know of any personally, 1 7 but as I indicated earlier, I was not . 1 8 directly involved any longer. 19 Q Do you know whether furans were : 2 0 found in the Aroclor product? 1 2 1 A . Ye s , I do. 2 2 Q . Werethey? j 1 i 2 3 A . Yes. i 24 Q . And in what quantities? Do you _ 2 5 know? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 91 si WATER PCB-SD0000037859 1 A. As I remember, it was the low, 2 very small quantities. I don't remember the 3 numbers. 4 Q. Do you remember when they first 5 detected f u r a n s i n the PCB ' s ,' Aroclors: Not 6 just any PCB ' s , your PCB's, Aroclors? 7 A . Yes, i t was, i t was detected by an 8 outside laboratory in late 1975 and found and 9 detected by Monsanto's analytical experts in 1 0 about March o r so. At least , i t was reported 1 1 March or so o f 1 9 7 6. 1 2 Q . Who was the expe r t i n Monsanto who 1 3 found it? Do you know? 1 4 A . 11 was either Dr. Kaley or his 15 prede cessor There was a change taking place 1 6 in personnel at about that time. j 1 7 Q. What did Monsanto Chemical Company j j 1 8 know about the toxicity of the tri- and 1 19 tetrachloro benzenes that they were blending j 2 0 with Aroclors to produce Pyranol? I | 21 A. I cannot speak for Monsanto's j I 22 Medical Department and their total knowledge | 23 of these materials. I can only speak from ! 2 4 the plant standpoint, where we handled the 2 5 material and we were informed to respect it GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MISSOURI 92 WATER PCB-SD0000037860 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 in exactly the same way we respected the PCB's and the benzene, and other materials of that type. Q. How about the tin tetraphenyl? A. I know nothing a bo u t it. Q What were the other ingredients in Inerteen other than PCB's? Do you know? A. They also contained chlorinated benzenes and they also contained an ingredient that acted as a chlorine scavenger, referred to by the acronym "PPO." Q. PPO? A . Yes. I've forgotten, it's -- I forgot , some kind of oxide, propylene, phenyl oxide, or -- I'm guessing, so -- Q . What were the chlorobenzenes that were us e d in the Inerteen? Do you know? A . Tri- and tetrach1orobenzene . Q . Were they in the same or similar q u a n t i t ies in the mix a s in the P y r a n o 1 product ! A. There were some similarities, but I don't know if they were exactly the same ratios. Q . You have no recollection of what GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST . LOUIS , MISSOURI 93 WATER PCB-SD0000037861 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 the ratios were in the mix? A. No, I don't recall. In my mind, I can't distinguish between the Pyranol and the Inerteen ratios. Q . Now, about the ti nre that this " analytical process developed in the-- late Sixties for detecting PCB's, apparently PCB's were found to have gotten in, somehow or another gotten into the environment. Is that correct? A. Yes. Q. Are you aware of any information that Monsanto had that would have indicated that the substance was or could have been getting into the environment prior to that time? A. Yes, we were aware that there were occasional spills that would find their way into the environment, yes, just like many other indu s t ria 1 chemicals . 11 was not a case of every molecule was accounted for, Q. Well, you were selling the Aroclors inbarrels that were going out the i i i j door, and in fact, in tank cars and tank wagons. 1 GORE REPORTINGCOMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 94 ! ^ WATERPCB-SD0000037862 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A . Yes. Q. Where was it going? Do you know? A. You mean geographically, or use applications , or -- Q. Yes, use applications. A. Whew, hundreds of uses.~ All kinds. About half of it was in what we perceived to be closed systems. Q. Transformers, capacitors and the like? A. And the like. The other half were later described as open systems. The use in caulking around skyscraper windows, the use in adhesives, the use in paints, use in the carbonless copy paper. Q . Plastics? A. I'm sorry. Q. And in plastics? A. And plastics, to soften,make them pliable, yes. Q. Also used in hydraulic oils? A. Industrial hydraulic fluid, yes. Q . Did you consider that open or closed? A. Well,we considered those closed GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 95 WATER PCB-SD0000037863 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 systems at the time. Q Although they tended to lose quite a bit o f fluid, I gather. A . Well, it depended on the attention given t o the systems , the a m o\i n t of maintenance. --.. ' Q Were you aware of its use in transformers on rail cars? A. Yes. .. Q. Did you have any knowledge about the particular vulnerability of transformers mounted on rail cars? A . No . Q. Were you aware that those transformers were frequently damaged by accident, by objects striking them otherwise? MR. MALIN: Object to the form of that question. BY MR. COHEN: Q. Were you aware that the product was being sold as replacement fluid to fill up transformers in rail cars? A. Yes. Q. GE was a customer for that use, GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 96 WATER PCB-SD0000037864 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 also? A . Yes. Q. Other manufacturers of rail cars were customers, also? A. Manufacturers of rail cars? Q . Yes. - ~ A. Customers? I don't recall seeing their names on a customer list. Q. GE made rail cars? did you know that? A . No , I didn't. Q How about the Budd Company? A . I don't recall seeing the Budd i ! j Company listed. Q. How about railroads, themselves: Were you aware that they were buying the product? A. I was aware of shipments made to addresses referring to railroads. Q. Such as Penn Central? A. I don't recallit specifically . I remember railroads being mentioned as a ship to, a s distinguished from bill to, to the order that would be placed by, say, GE, to be shipped to a site where it would be used. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI WATER PCB-SD0000037865 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Do you know what the use was at that site, that remote location? A. It was a transformer fluid. Q. Did it occur to anyone at the time that that transformer should have had fluid initalready? MR. MALIN: I'll object to the form of that question. I don't understand it. BY MR. COHEN: Q. You understand it? A. That's almost a given. A transformer that's in service -- Q. Has fluid in it. A. -- has fluid in it. The fact that more fluid is ordered could indicate many conditions for its need. It does not clearly define what happened to the old fluid. Q. To your knowledge, did anyone in Monsanto prior to 1970 question what was happening to the fluid? MR. MALIN: Object to the form of that question because I don't know what you mean by what was happening to the fluid, or what fluid you are talking about. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 98 sU. WATER PCB-SD0000037866 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. COHEN: Q. Do you understand what I am speaking of, sir? A. I think I do. I'm assuming you are referring to the, the original fluid. " Q. Right, the transformer wa s sold with fluid. A. This is no different than any other transformer application. I cannot speak for others in Monsanto as to whether the question rose in their minds as to what's happening. I don't know that. Q. Tell me what you knew about, prior to 1970, with respect to any concern within the Monsanto Chemical Company as to the ultimate disposition of the PCB's that were being sold as dielectric fluids. A. What did I know prior to 1970? Nothing. Q. Did you ever hear the subject discussed? A. Not in my presence, no. Q. What information did you have regarding the toxicity of the substance prior to 1970? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI WATER PCB-SD0000037867 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A . Of which substance? Q PCB 1 s , the dielectric fluids . A . PCB '' s , themselves . Q The fluids, yes, right Aroclors . A. I described it earlier, the effect on human beings and the prolonged,"high-level exposure and the eventual damage to the liver. That's what I knew about the effects on humans. . Q. Did you know of any potential effects on the environment? A . Not prior to '69. Q That was when the Jensen and ffidmark material became well-known ? A . That' s when I first heard about i t . The Jensen report was issued in December 19 6 6 , a s I recall , under some doubts regarding the findings and the conclusions, but that's the first report. Q. So would it be fair to say that prior to that time, you personally had no knowledge that this material was out there and affecting the environment in any way whatsoever? A. That is correct. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 10 0 i WATER PCB-SD0000037868 1 Q Did you ever hear it discussed 2 within Monsanto that the material was out 3 there and could be affecting the environment? 4 A. No such discussion was held to my 5 knowledge. ' 6 Q . Prior to the mid Sixti-e s~; were the 7 still bottoms being buried in a landfill? 8 A . Yes. 9 Q Do you know how they were packaged 1 0 burial ? 1 1 A . Yes. 1 2 Q How? 1 3 A . Steel drums, and then they were 1 4 placed in a hole dug in the landfill, stacked 1 5 and buried. 1 6 Q. Right against the earth or was it 1 7 in some sort of vault? 1 8 A . Against the earth. 1 9 Q Did you ever hear any concern 2 0 expressed regarding any e f f e c t on the j j 2 1 environment a s a result of t h o s e s till i 2 2 bottoms being stored in that way? 2 3 A . No, they were just like the il 2 4 blacktop roadway, hardened in side these s t e e 1 2 5 containers , and the site was perceived to b e GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST . LOUIS , MISSOURI 10 1 : WATER PCB-SD0000037869 1 appropriate in that there was no water 2 flowing through it, no ground water, i 3 underground water, so we believed that that 4 was a responsible way to dispose of it. 5 Q. Let me show you a document that we 6 marked yesterday as Kelly 25. It' consists of 7 six pages, although I believe that it's 8 actually two sets of the same three pages, 9 MR. COHEN: If you could mark this 1 0 as Papageorge 3. I 1 1 (Papageorge Deposition 1 2 Exhibit 3 marked for 1 3 identification.) 1 4 (Witness peruses said 1 5 document.) 1 6 BY MR. COHEN: 1 7 Q. Do you recognize those documents 1 8 that have now been marked as Papageorge 3. 1 9 A. This is the first time I've seen 2 0 these documents. 2 1 Q. Do you know what they are? I 2 2 A. Well, I don't know where they came 23 from or who put them together, but they 2 4 describe some analytical results. | 2 5 Q. But it's not a form of a document GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 1 07 sL- WATER PCB-SD0000037870 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that you recognize? A. That is correct. Q. Did you, during the time period that's reflected on these documents, which would be in 1973, have occasion to see any of the quality control documents that resulted from the sampling of production material of Aroclors ? MR. MALIN: Objection to the form of the question; the time period does not necessarily mean these documents are 1973 documents. It only saysproduction date of an Aroclor in '73, it doesn't say anything about when they were analyzed. Answer the question if you think you understand it,though. THE WITNESS: I've forgotten the question. MR. COHEN: Mr. Reporter. (The requested portion of the record read by the reporter) A. During 1973, on occasion, I would get to see documents that reflected the quality control activities at the two plants. BY MR. COHEN: GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI WATER PCB-SD0000037871 1 Q Did they look like these? 2 A . No 3 Q. Now, Mr. Malin has suggested the 4 possibility that the samples were produced in 5 October of '83 but analyzed at some later 6 date. Were samples of production nra t e r i a 1 7 saved in some way to identify them to a 8 particular production date beyond the 9 immediate post production period? 1 0 Yes. 1 1 Q How long were they saved? 1 2 A . Whew. It varied from chemical to 13 chemical I've forgotten -- for PCB's, I 1 4 think they were kept for about ten years or 1 5 so. There is a sample storage room. 1 6 Q. And how were they kept? 1 7 A. In the glass bottle. 1 8 Q. So it would be glass bottles lined 1 9 up on shelves, indicating production dates, 2 0 and -- 2 1 A. Well, it would be by lot number 2 2 and the lot number, then, is listed on 2 3 another document that ties it into a date, a 2 4 plant, and the operator that took the sample. 2 5 MR. COHEN: Bear with me one GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 10 4 WATER PCB-SD0000037872 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 second. (Pause) BY MR. COHEN: Q. Subsequent to the various events that occurred in the mid to late Sixties regarding, first, the ability to detect the presence of PCB's using gas chromatography and then later, the ability to detect it in the environment, were you involved in any way with Monsanto in dealing with the problem of the presence of PCB's in the environment? A . No . Q. Did you ever get involved in something -- there apparently was a monthly report published called the "PCB Environmental Problem Status Report"? Do you recall that? A. I recall similar reports. I don't know which one you have in your hand, there. I f I could see it, I could identify it. Q Do you recall seeing such reports? A . May I see it so I can - Q Well, I guess what I' m trying to d e t e r m i n e is, were you involved in any organized activity within the company in GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 10 5 , i WATER PCB-SD0000037873 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 trying to deal with the problem of environmental contamination of PCB's -- by PCB ' s ? A . But you had prefaced your previous question with prior to the 1 at e Sixties and the devel opment of the methodology-; Q. I'm sorry. Did I say prior? A. That's what I thought. Q. I meant subsequent. A. I heard "prior" but maybe. Q . My apologies, sir. A. All right; subsequent to it? Q. Yes . A. I was involved, yes. Q. Yes. Would you tell me about that involvement? What happened inside the company? How did you get tapped for the job, ! and what was your job? A. Starting in J anuary 1st, 1 9 7 0, I ; i! j was asked to take over a new, newly-formed job with the title of Manager, Environmental Control . Q.Manager? I I A. Manager, Environmental Control, to j help in coordinatingthe activities within j GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 10 6 j ^ WATER PCB-SD0000037874 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Monsanto and Monsanto and the its customers, and the governmental agencies, and universities, other laboratories, to assure as much a s we could that the information regarding PCB's was accurate, scientifically sound, and that PCB's, if in use, would be properly handled to prevent entry into the environmen t. That was roughly my assignment. Q. What did you do to carry out that assignment? A, 0h, I initially had, of course , to familiarize myself with a s much a s I could regarding all the facets of this problem, including the health effects , the environmental effects , the uses, the amounts involved, the types of customers, the other producers throughout the world , what the governmental agencies knew about it or wanted to know about it, the state of the art regarding analytical methods. Once I did that, then I found myself really serving a s a communications focal point where inquiries coming into Monsanto would flow through my office, I would sort of, if it was within the realm of my expertise, I would res pond, I f GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 1 07 WATER PCB-SD0000037875 1 not, I would ask the proper person within 2 Monsanto and elsewhere to respond. For 3 example, if it's a medical question, I'd go 4 to Monsanto's Medical Department. If it was 5 an analytical question, I'd go to the ' 6 analytical research chemist. I.c o u-1 d handle 7 the manufacturing part fairly well, so I 8 guess I really served as the person who tried 9 to let the left hand know what the right was 1 0 doing, no natter whose arm it was, whether it 11 be government, or Monsanto, or Monsanto's 1 2 customer, or a university lab, or a foreign 1 3 producer. 1 4 Q. When you said if you had a medical 1 5 question, you went to the Medical Department, 1 6 who would you go to in the Medical 17 Department? 1 8 A. I would try to reach Dr. Kelly, 1 9 preferably, and in his absence, I would go to 2 0 his assistant, Mr. Elmer Wheeler. Of course, 2 1 if Mr. Wheeler wasn't available, I'd then 2 2 have to rely on others on the staff that were 2 3 available at the moment. If not, I would 2 4 have to ask the person making the inquiry to 2 5 wait until I caught up with the right people. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 10 8 WATER PCB-SD0000037876 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q How long did you carry out this role as sort of the communications focal point? A. From 19, starting in 1970 through February' 76. ' Q. And what happened in' ' 76'? A. I was assigned to a different part of Monsanto, organizational part, which was not involved with PCB's, and the PCB a s signment was transferred t o another person. Q Who was that? A . J . C . Weber . , Q And what's the " j " stand for? i A. I honestly don't know. The middle name was -- he went by Cole, C-o-l-e, Cole Weber. I don't know what the "J" stands for. Q. And do you know where Mr. Weber is today? A. I do not. Q. How long did he stay in the employ of Monsanto, to your knowledge? A. I really don't know. Q. Now, if you had a question regarding toxicology or the toxicologic properties of PCB's, who would you go to? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 10 9 WATER PCB-SD0000037877 1 A . I ' d go to Mr. Wheeler. 2 Q And why would you go to Wheeler 3 instead of Kelly? 4 A. Well, Mr. Wheeler was designated 5 by Dr. Kelly as the person who wouldmanage 6 and monitor toxicology studies plated with 7 private laboratories, so it was Mr. Wheeler's 8 responsibility to stay abreast of 9 developments, so he was the most 1 0 knowledgeable person regarding details of 11 these studies. 1 2 Q. How about Levinskas? 1 3 A Dr . Levinskas joined the Medical 1 4 Department , I 1 m going to say, about 1973-ish, 1 5 '72, '73. He came along later, but I still 1 6 relied on Mr . Wheeler as my principal 1 7 contact. 1 8 Q And you started this activity in 1 9 the beginning of 1970? 2 0 A . Yes 21 Q Do you recall preparing a document 2 2 which was, "Management Plan, Polychlorinated 2 3 Biphenyl Environmental Problem"? 2 4 A. Yes, I do remember that. 2 5 Q. And was that sort of the genesis GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MISSOURI WATER PCB-SD0000037878 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 of the efforts that were made within the company for dealing with this problem? A. I wouldn't define it a s the genesis. This is more a, a n attempt to summarize the thinking then p'r evailing in Monsanto in preparation for a recomm endation to the top officials in the company for actions to be taken. Q. Did you begin, amongst other things, monitoring the discharge of PCB's from the various production facilities of Monsanto? A . Yes. Q. And what did you discover? A. We discovered that our wastes coming from the two producing plants did c o n t a i n PCB's. Waste water. Q I n what quantities? A . Oh , I forgot the numbers. They were , by today 's standards, pretty high part per million. Q Do you know the source of the w a s t e water? A . I ' m sorry? Q Do you know the source of the GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 111 . * WATER PCB-SD0000037879 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 waste water in the plant? A. In the plant? It was primarily one of hosing down the floors in sort of a n attempt to keep the place fairly clean . That would be the principal source'. ' Q . So the principal source --o f the PCB's in the plant would have been a production facility which dripped on the floor which then was hosed down into drains in_ the floor that ran into the sanitary sewer from the facility, itself. A. That is a good description, yes. with Q. ' other So then that waste water combined waste water from the plant would enter into the public stream , sewerage stream j ! j i I iI j i! I i { i ! i j i ! or discharge into rivers, whatever the particular arrangements were, and it was in those discharges that you f ound the quantities of PCB's? A. When you say those -- it was in i j the discharge leaving the Monsanto site, | headed for themunicipal treatment plant that ; wassampled. Q. So you were sampling it before it j I : went? 1 GORE REPORTING COMPANY- ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 112 1 ^ WATER PCB-SD0000037880 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Before it went to the municipal plants? In both situations, they went to municipal treatment plants. Q . When I referred to status reports , monthly status reports, you, in fact, were the author of those status reports r a t least during part of the time in 1970, were you not? A. Yes. I was the author of a series of status reports . I don't know that there are any other authors . I was the author . Q. What was the information that you were trying to c ommunic a t e with those status reports? A. The intent of that report was to communicate to the Monsanto people involved with PCB ' s the activities a s reported by each of the functions within Monsanto so that again, the left hand knew what the right was doing, so the marketing man knew what the research man was doing and thinking and vice versa . Q. You included within that report a legal report on a monthly basis? A. There was a contribution by the GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 113 WATER PCB-SD0000037881 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 legal representative, yes. Q. And this information thencame to you and you included it in the report for Monsanto officials? A . Yes . i " Q. And what information did- you intend to communicate in the legal section of thereport? A. Whatever the legal guy gave me. I did the paste work. I just clipped out his i paragraph . Q. But he sent these memos, youcut i i them all up, put them together? A. Put 'em together, and the secretary typed it up and distributed it. I had -- Q give you? What sort of information did he What was he telling you was iii i i happening ? MR. MALIN: Hold on a moment. (Inaudible discussion between Mr. Malin and the witness.) MR. MALIN: Well, I'm going to object to that question and direct him not to answer. That's privileged information. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST . LOUIS , MIS SOURI 114 WATER PCB-SD0000037882 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. COHEN: You are claiming privilege to what? Was legal advice given? Are you contending legal advice was given? MR . MA LIN: The Legal Department, we're taking the privilege, assuming that " that it is. ...~- MR. COHEN: Anything the Legal Department said? If the Legal Department said it was reported in the newspaper that Monsanto may get sued for X, Y and Z, that that' s s omehow privileged inf orma tion ? MR. MALIN: Well, we don't know that, do we? MR. COHEN: We don't know . That's what I'm trying to find out what is the -- MR. MALIN: I'm instructing him not to disclose whatever information he got from counsel. MR. COHEN: Wait just a minute. MR. MALIN: Monsanto ' s counsel . BY MR. COHEN: Q. Was this intended to be legal advice to you, sir? A . I have to confess , I don't remember specifics , because latest versions GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 115 WATER PCB-SD0000037883 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 of that document that I've been privileged to look at did not contain that paragraph, so I've not had the opportunity to refresh my memory. It was not intended, a s I recall , to give me - - well, I just don't' remember anymore. It's been twenty years a go. Q. You were reporting on legal developments, weren't you? A. Sometimes , a s I r ememb e r. I just don't r erne mb e r the details. Q. Well, this status report wasn't intended to be an organ of legal advice to Monsanto Chemical Company or to Monsanto the parent company, either, was it? MR. MALIN: I'll object to the form of that question, of what his intentions were. Suffice it to say the witness is directed not to answer any question about what any communications he had with Monsanto' s counsel a t or abou t that time i i i i which even if they were contained in the letter unless they are actually disclosed . MR. COHEN: I didn't ask for communications from counsel, I'm asking him whether this memo was intended to be giving GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 116 WATER PCB-SD0000037884 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 or communicating legal advice to Monsanto's management. Heprepared the document. MR. M A LIN: But it was also prepared by counsel. He took whatever counsel had to say and collated it, so he coordinated the document, he didn't' necessarily prepare what counsel had to say, and that's a very large difference. I have the same direction to the witness. BY MR. COHEN: Q Did you read the informati o n that Counsel gave you before you put it in t o the document ? MR. MALIN: You c a n answer that question whether or not you read it. A . Certainly I read it, yes. BY MR. COHEN: Q. And you described your activities a s basically cut and paste. Would it be fair to say that whoever counsel or whoever the contributor of the so-called legal section was, was it your intention to change any of that matieral in any way, or did you literally cut and paste that material? A. I did not change any of the pieces GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS S OUR I WATER PCB-SD0000037885 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that make up the whole document. I literally -- well, I shouldn't say literally -- I circled the paragraphs that I wanted the secretary to type, which was, in essence , a cut and paste. ' " Q . Got you. Was the mat e r i-a 1 contained under "Legal" always from Monsanto ' s legal counsel? A. Yes. Q. Do you remember who legal counsel was a t that time? A. Mr. P h o cia n Park. Q. I'm sorry? A. P h o cian Park, P-h-o-c-i-a-n? Q. Did he get a copy of the document back again? A . He should have. He should be on the list, I think. Okay, let's go down the list D . S. Cameron , who was that? He was the European PCB representative of the Marketing Group. Q . W. S . Clark. A . He was the representative of the Monsanto Plasticizers Group in the U.S. I j GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOUR I 118 ij WATER PCB-SD0000037886 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q . J . R . Durland. A . He was Monsanto's representative in Japan . Q M. W . , it looks like "Parrar; could be "Farrar . " ' A . Oh, Farrar. Q . Farrar . A . He's Director of Research for the Plasticiz ers Group in Monsanto. Q What's "Second Street" mean? A . I'm sorry? Q . What does "Second Street" mean? A . That is the location of his office. Q The plasticizers unit? A . His office was still there. Q Mr. or Ms Okay. Mr. John, or E. V. John, A. He's the representative of the Public Relations Department . Q. R. E. Keller. A. He is the supervisor of the analytical research group. Q. R. N. Kountz ? A. He was the manager of GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 119 WATER PCB-SD0000037887 1 manufacturing for PCB's. 2 Q D. A. Olson. 3 A . He was director of marketing for 4 the PCB ' s sold a s industria 1 fluids . 5 Q . And P . S . Park i s -Phocian Park, ' 6 legal counsel. . ...... 7 A . That is correct. 8 Q W. R. Richard. 9 A . Director of Rese arch for PCB' s 1 0 used as industrial fluids. 1 1 Q E. P . Whee1er , w e know. 12 A . Yes . | 1 3 Q. H. S. Bergen. J i 14 A. He was the director of the j 1 5 Business Group, responsible forPCB's sold as | i 1 6 industrial fluids . j 1 7 Q . J . Mason. 18 A. He was Mr. Bergen's boss. He was 1 9 an assistant general manager. 2 0 Q. And J. E. Springgate? 2 1 A. He was the director of the 2 2 Business Group, responsible for the sale of 2 3 PCB's a s plasticizers. : 24 (Pause) 2 5 BY MR. COHEN: , t j GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST.LOUIS,MISSOURI 12 0 j -AT WATER PCB-SD0000037888 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Let's see. So you were director of, you have here, "Anniston plant PCB levels in sewer, " "Aroclor losses during November average , " then it says, "25 , " and there ' s what looks like a tic-tac-toe' mark . Is that pounds? You want to look at it? -- A . The cross hatch? Q Yeah. A . That's generally pounds , yeah. Q That's what you meant by it, anyway ? A . That's what the author of that paragraph meant. MR. COX : Can we go off the record? Discussion off the record BY MR. COHEN: Q. So that meant 25 pounds per day. Do you know how that was measured? A . I do , yes. Q Tell m e . A . You take a sample. ! Q You can answer. A . The sample is taken in such a way that it represents a 24-hour period of time. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 12 1 WATER PCB-SD0000037889 1 A little bit is taken out every 15 minutes or 2 so, so the composite represents the 2 4 -h o u r 3 output. 4 Q. Some sort of dipstick device or 5 something like that? ' 6 A. It's a pump, it's timed T it's got 7 the hoses, and I don't know how else to 8 describe it, but nevertheless, it's designed 9 to give a composite sample for a 24-hour 1 0 period. They also have ways of measuring the 1 1 flow in the sewer, so many gallons of water 1 2 in that 24-hour period. The laboratory 1 3 analyzes the amount of PCB's in that sample, 1 4 and they come up with so many parts per 1 5 million or parts per billion. They then go 1 6 through the necessary arithmetic to equate 1 7 the PCB's in that sample to the total flow 1 8 for a 24-hour period and that's how they come 1 9 up with 25 pounds a day. 2 0 Q. So if it says 4,620 parts per 2 1 billion, would that be the concentration of 2 2 PCB's in the sample? 2 3 A. Yes. 2 4 Q. And from that, they make a 2 5 calculation to the total pounds of PCB's in GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 12 2 WATER PCB-SD0000037890 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 the sewerage for 24 hours? A . Correct. <2 Okay. MR. COHEN: We'll have to make extra copi e s , here, and this is a lengthy document. Why don't we have this nra r k e d as Papageorge next, then you can i d e n tify it for the record , we'll get it all into the record, here. (Papageorge Deposition Exhibit 4 marked for identification.) (Witness peruses said document.) (Discussion off the record.) (Luncheon recess from 12:25 to 1:25.) BY MR. COHEN: Q. Okay, so you have had a chance to look at that exhibit that's now been marked as Papageorge 4, I think? A. I have. Q. And can you tell us what is Papageorge 4, sir? A. This is a copy of a status report GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI WATER PCB-SD0000037891 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that I've edited, and issued on December 7th, 1970, and it was addressed to Monsanto people involved with the PCB environmental issue. Q. And -- MR. McLAUGHLIN: Excuse me, how many pages is that? MR . COHEN: Thirteen, I think . A. The last page is numbered Page 11. MR. McLAUGHLIN: Thank you. BY MR. COHEN: Q. So would I take it that if I were to look at another similar report for another month where it said that PCB levels in the sewer were calculated a t 75.1 -- I 'm sorry, 71.5 pounds per day, that that would mean that the same calculation, same measurement, same calculation had been made? A . The calculation made in the same manner. I don't know a t this point whether such information was reported each month. It I I depended on the activity that took place during the month. Q. Well, for example, I'm looking a t t a report dated October 6, 1970, referring to September. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 12 4 WATER PCB-SD0000037892 1 A . September. 2 Q . And it says, "Current losses to 3 the river from the treatment plant range from 4 12 to 7 4 2 parts per billion with a n average 5 loss of 311 parts per billion' for 11 samples . 6 This is an equivalent average loss "of 71.5 7 pounds per day." That would be the same 8 calculation? 9 A . Yes. 1 0 Q So in the month of September, 1 1 then , the Krummrich plant, which this is 1 2 under , was putting out 71.5 pounds of PCB's 1 3 in its sewerage every day? 1 4 A. Yes. 1 5 Q. And where was that other one that 1 6 we -- do you know, sir, when did this 1 7 monitoring of sewerage for PCB output begin? 1 8 A. To the best of my recollection , it 1 9 began i n '69 or '70. 2 0 Q So was it something that was 2 1 started prior to the time you were issuing 22 these status reports? 2 3 A . Yes. 2 4 Q . Were records kept of the output 2 5 PCB's i n the sewerage from the time they GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 12 5 ^ WATER PCB-SD0000037893 1 started? 2 A . Yes 3 Q. Do you know of any changes that 4 had been made prior to the time they started 5 monitoring the output that w o'u Id have had any 6 impact on the amount of PCB's that"were 7 getting into the sewerage? 8 A. Well, certainly, changes were made 9 in the equipment and the arrangement of that 1 0 equipment in each of the producing units at 1 1 each of the plants. Some of these changes 1 2 were made to increase production, which means 1 3 increased activity. Assuming -- and this is 1 4 only an assumption -- that the amount of 1 5 material that found its way into the sewer 1 6 was a function of the amount produced, I 1 7 could see where the amount increased with 1 8 some of those changes. On the other hand, 1 9 there were some changes made that helped the 2 0 spill problem by improving the equipment. An 21 example. Better pumps were selected that did 2 2 not leak as much as the old pumps, so we have 2 3 examples, I have examples in mind of where 2 4 some of the changes reduced the amount and 2 5 yet others could have increased the amount, GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST . LOUIS , MISSOURI 12 6 WATER PCB-SD0000037894 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 prior to the sampling program we discussed. Q. Do you have any idea of the amount of increase or decrease in what would have been the PCB's getting into the sewers prior to the time they started the monitoring? A. No, I don't, because ' th e "r e was no way to measure it so we really didn't know. Q. Well, was there any type of significant exchange - - strike that. I gather from what you've said earlier that the PCB's that got into the sewerage got into the sewerage as a result of cleanup activities in the plant. A. Yes. Q. They would do regular, ordinary housekeeping practices, and in the course of doing housekeeping practices, they were washing spilled product down drains. A . That' s the major source, yes. Q . Well, what other sources were there that were of significance? A . Well, it's a form of washing but it is not man-induced. I have in mind a situation where a spill could have occurred, ! : staining an area of the concrete pavement, . GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 1 i 1 12 7 WATER PCB-SD0000037895 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 heavy rainfall occurs before you've had a chance to soak it up with, say, sawdust or some other retrieving type of material. That heavy rain could wash across that floor, pick up the PCB's and end up either in the sewer, the process sewer, or the storm s ewer s. Q. So this, of necessity, would have occurred outside of the building? A. Well, the operation is an outside operation. Q. So the process, itself, was conducted outside? A. Yes. Q. At all the plants? A . Yes. Q. Any other significant sources you can think of? A. Well, there is the occasional rupture of a pipeline, a more or less catastrophic kind of thing compared to the small leakage. This didn't happen often but when it -did, it was a source of PCB's that did get into the sewer system. Q. So when there's a reference, for example, to one very bad day at Snow Creek GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 12 8 WATER PCB-SD0000037896 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 where 400 pounds of the material got into the sewer, that would be an example of -- A. That's an example of something unusual happened there because Snow Creek is not a normal drainage - - it's' a, it's a dry creek except when there's heavy r a i'n s , so this tells me that there's something happened on the surface, on the ground, a rain came along and helped push it into that creek. Q. When it refers to the pounds of PCB's, that's talking about product, like an Aroclor, one of the Aroclors. A. Yes. Q. That's actually pounds of the PCB product itself. A. Yes . Q. Is there any reason for you to believe that there's been any significant change in the amount of discharge over the years prior to the time that you actually began the monitoring program, other than increases that might coincide with increases in production? A . Significant changes ? I don't know of anything that I would consider GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 12 9 WATER PCB-SD0000037897 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 significant, no. Q. So would it be fair to say, without speculating too greatly, that the same sort of discharge was occurring for some time prior to the monitoring 'activities? A. That is reasonable, yes r Q. Did anyone, to your knowledge, in Monsantoraise any concern about that? A. A t what point in time? Q. Well, at any time prior to 1970 that you areaware of? A. Prior to 1970, the amount certainly was not known. The perception of PCB's a t the time was such that they were considered to be innocuous. It was known that the material was going to a municipal treatment plant, and it was known that PCB's were heavier than water, they would end up in the treatment plant sludge, and we knew the sludge was being disposed of in landfills, so based on the knowledge available at the time this was not perceived t o be a serious problem. 11 seemed to be under control. Q. When you say under control, it really w a s n ' t under your control anymore GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST . LOUIS , MISSOURI WATER PCB-SD0000037898 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 because it was going out of the plant plant and into a municipal facility. A. Very true. It was under control of some -- somebody. Some person. Q . From what source d'i d the belief' derive that PCB's were innocuous?-- A. I personally don't know where the thought originated. I do know that this was a, an accepted opinion amongst the research chemists that live with this material day in, day out. They knew that the material was not reactive chemically, it was very stable, so it was a, a natural assumption, almost, that it's so stable under, with acids and alkalis and what have you, surely it's stable out there in sewerage water, for example. Q. Stable in what way? That it would not convert into other compounds? A. That is a definition of stability, yes. It does not change its chemical and physical form. Q. Is that the definition you were using when you said that it was believed by research chemists that it was stable? A . Yes. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 13 1 WATER PCB-SD0000037899 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. So what was believed to be the ultimate disposition? It would end up in the sludge and not go any further? A . Yes. Q I'm sorry, you had' more to say? " I didn't mean to -- A . No, that's it. Q To your knowledge, were people . surprised to learn that it was getting into . j j rivers and streams? A . It depends on where the sample was | ! \ taken. It was surprising to be found in ; remote, nonindustria 1 areas. It was not necessarily a surprise next to a factory, just like our own plants. We wouldn't have been surprised if it had been found, at the municipal treatment plant, as an example, but to find it in what appeared to be virgin timberland in Arkansas was the type of surprise that Monsanto people had. Q . Did anyone ever determine how it got to the virgin timberland? A . No one has determined in a i j i j scientific way how it got there, but there's an awful lot of hypotheses offered. Air . GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 13 2 ; WATER PCB-SD0000037900 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 movement, rainfall, but none of it has ever been demonstrated scientifically. 1 Q. accept? A- Any of these hypotheses you That I accept? ' I I Q . Yes. : A. I find it easy for me to accept the concept that, a s a n example, the norm a 1 burning of waste paper, which included the carbonless copy paper, the temperatures are not reached where the PCB's are altered : I j ii : i j i ! chemically, they're just volatilized, go up the stack , find thems elves in the a tmo sphere, i ! : and the wind movemen ts circulate them, and they ' re involved with some kind of rainfall , : i ! and I can accept the fact that that rainfall j washes down, in essence, the PCB's in the air and they are then found on the -- in this virgin timberland I talked about. I can see that happening. } j j i Q . Any others you accept? A. Well, that ' s a n example of a free release into the environment. 1 can see also J i j i i ; where, to pick another example, the white and yellow traffic paint on highways and i GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST . LOUIS , MIS SOURI 13 3 WATER PCB-SD0000037901 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 roadways, there is wear and tear, as we know. Those little particles break away from the surface, a rainfall comes along, and takes this down some creek into a river , and the next thing you know, that river or small stream ends up in some area far re m'o v e d from any industry, so I can see that being a source . Those are just a couple of examples of the kind of thing that could reasonably be expected to have happen. Q . By the way, did workmen in any of the plants where the product was manufactured wear clothing that was issued by Monsanto? A. Oh, yeah. That's, that's a union agreement, a change of clothing. Q. Was the clothing laundered by Monsanto? A . Yes. 0 . A t the plant? A . No, they had a laundry service . Q . So it was don e elsewhere? A . Yes. Q . So the PCB ' s in the waste stream from the plant would not have contained anything that was the re suit of laundering of GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST . LOUIS , MISSOURI 13 4 WATER PCB-SD0000037902 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 workers' garments? A. That is correct. Q. Perhaps the waste stream of the laundry that had the contract for laundering the clothing worn by the workers could have waste, -- PCB's in its waste stream? A. Depends how dirty the clothes were. Of course, they launder all the clothing, which includes a hundred different or 200 different chemicals. Assuming all the clothes are very dirty, well, they're not that dirty, really. Q. So do I understand it that you have never heard anyone, prior to 1970, expressing any concern within Monsanto regarding the waste stream of PCB's because of this belief of their innocuous and stable quality? A. That is correct. Q. Do you know anybody who made any tests of the material, exposing it to sunlight, exposing it to wind, exposing it to water, exposing it to a combination of those events, in order to determine its stability? MR. MALIN: What time period are GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 13 5 WATER PCB-SD0000037903 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 we talking about? MR. COHEN: Prior to 1970. A. I don't know of any. This does not mean that it did not take place. BY MR. COHEN: '' Q. You were not aware of them having not been done at that time? A. That is correct. Q. I know you did a lot of the toxicologic studies on laboratory animals. Did anyone make any tests to determine whether the animals excreted the PCB's after having injested the PCB's? A . Again, wh Q Prior t o A . Prior to ? test of that type. Q. So prior to the news, basically, coming from Europe in 1966, I believe you said -- A. Yes. Q. Other thanthe toxicity teststhat were being done, there were notests that you know of to determine in any way the impact on the environment generally of the product, the GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 13 6 WATER PCB-SD0000037904 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 PCB ' s ? A. True, because the analytical procedure wasn't available. You can't conduct tests unless you can analyze for very low quantities to detect cha nge s . " Q. Is that the only reason "it wasn't done? Do you remember someone proposing, gee, it might be a good idea if we go out and dig up soil in the virgin woodlands and see if there's any PCB's there? A. Well, like I say, I wasn't involved personally so I don't know what discussions took place in the research department . Q Do you have any knowledge of what Mons anto was doing, if they were doing anything, prior to the time that you became j 1 j i involved in this environmental study in 1970, to determine if PCB's were finding their way into the environment? A . I ' m not aware of any personally Q . Now you said earl i e r that tests were not being done because the analytical tool was not available. Are you saying -- A. Well, I said the tests could not GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI WATER PCB-SD0000037905 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 have been done. Q I see. A . But they were not feasible. I Q To your knowledge proposed doing the tests? A . That I don't know no one ever Q I'm saying to you though -- A . Somebody may have proposed it. Q You are not aware of anyone proposing? A. To my knowledge, no one spoke to that subject in my presence, no. Q. You are not aware of anyone proposing tests; you know that tests were not done, is that correct? A. No, I don't know that. I just have never heard of them. Q. So if there were any tests, no one ever told you about them. A. That's true. Q. And you believe that technically, tests were not feasible in any event. A. That is correct. Q. Very early on in the investigation of the so-called PCB pollution problem, a GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 13 8 WATER PCB-SD0000037906 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 meeting was held with General Electric representatives in St. Louis. Do you recall that? A. I recall -- of course, there were several meetings. The earliest was early ' 19 -- the earliest at which I was ab1e to attend was early 1970. Q. Mm-hmm. A. February or so, March. Q. Do you remember having a meeting in St.Louis with representatives of General Electric? A. Yes. Q. I'm not sure I can pronounce this name right. B-e-n-i-e-n-g-u-s (sic) . A. Bengignus? Q. Benignus. What was his capacity in and around that time? A. He was the Manager, Marketing for Dielectric Fluids. MR . COHEN: Let me show you document, sir, that we can have marked Papageorge 5. (Papageorge Deposition Exhibit 5 marked for GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 13 9 N WATER PCB-SD0000037907 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 identification.) (Witness peruses said document.) A. I have scanned the document. BY MR. COHEN: ' Q. Do you recall ever having seen it before? A . Ye s . Q Wh o is the author of the document? A . Mr . Paul Benignus. Q Do you see that that document has -- s trike that Do you notice that some of the material that was originally in that document has been somehow or another eradicated from the document? A. Yes, I did. Q. Do you know what it said originally? A. I can only guess, because some o f them involve proper names of a person or persons, and some, it appears, might be referring to a c ompany. Q . Do you know what company they are referring to? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI ' 14 0 WATER PCB-SD0000037908 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A . Again , I'd guess. I don't know. Q Do you know why the information was deleted? A . No , I don't. Q . Why don't you i d e n't i f y the document for the record. A . This document is a copy, a ten-page copy of what appears to be, in essence, minutes of a meeting entitled, "The PCB Pollution Problem, January 21 and 22, 1970, St. Louis Meeting with General Electric," and this is a meeting with Monsanto personnel. Q. And you were present? A. I was present, yes. Q. Do you recall the meeting? A. Yes, I do. Q. What was General Electric's concern at that time in January of 1970? MR. MALIN: I'll object to the form of the question, but answer the question if you think you understand it. Do you mean the stated concern at the meeting, or -- MR. COHEN: I'm asking him if he GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 14 1 WATER PCB-SD0000037909 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 recalls, being at the meeting, what was the concern. MR. MALIN: All right, state the concern at the meeting. A. I don't recall a c'o ncern as much as it was a desire on the represeri ta t i v e s of General Electric to be you the toward and brought up-to-date on the current status of the PCB environmental issue as Monsanto knew it at that point in time, and an attempt to determine from Monsanto what possible actions they should be taking, and so that their activities coordinated well with Monsanto's activities regardingcontinued use, control ' of use, type of PCB to use, and so on. ; BY MR. COHEN: Q. Did they express any concern about ; having available a continuing source of product? A. I don't remember the issue coming up in that fashion so much as what type will 1 j ! : I ; be available, not so much will any be available. Because at that time, the focus i was on the higher chlorinated PCB's as being the problem and it was presumed then that the ' GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST.LOUIS, MISSOURI 14 2 i i WATER PCB-SD0000037910 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 lower chlorinated were not a problem; therefore continue to be available. Q. Which PCB's did you think would continue to be available in the market? A. At that time, it was the type represented by the Monsanto Aroclor 1242 and lower . Q. What is lower than 1242? A. There's a 1232, a 1221, those : j I three mixtures . Q. Do you recall receiving a report i ii i of atmospheric -- I'm sorry, of environmental sprinkling being done in the early spring of ' 1970? i i : A. I've seen so many reports of that type, it doesn't stand out in my memory. MR. COHEN: Well, let's take this and mark this document, then. Let's mark it Papageorge 6. (Papageorge Deposition Exhibit 6 marked for identification.) (Witness peruses said document.) THE WITNESS: I have reviewed the GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 14 3 WATER PCB-SD0000037911 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 article . BY MR. COHEN: Q. What is the document, sir? A. The document is a Monsanto memorandum authored by Dr. R .' E. Kelly -- " Keller, addressed tc me, dated April 17th, 1970. It summarizes the results of analysis of various samples for the presence of PCB's. Q. If you'll allow me to come around there, sir, I'll show you something and perhaps you can clarify it for me. We have a first page which is a memorandum summarizing work that has been done? A. Yes. Q. And then we have a three-page chart that gives us information regarding the tests that were done; is that correct? A. That is correct. Q. We start off with industrial applications, industrial locations, and identifying the particularindustry that's involved. Is that right? A . That is correct. Q Then we have the waterway that GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 14 4 ^ WATER PCB-SD0000037912 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 we're looking at. Now, from which we're taking samples. Is that correct? A. That is correct. Q. Then this says, "Matrix and number of samples analyzed." "Matrix" refers to what was the actual element that was being sampled, is that correct? A . Yes . Q. For example, air, water,sediment, whJ. c h I gather is stream sediment, fish? A. Yes. Q. And then, we have the number of samples; three air samples, 23 water samples, 12 sediment, two fish. Is that correct? A . That is correct. Q Then it says, "PCB ' s found most typical o f Aroclor," and then numbers 1 2 4 2, 1248, 1252 and 1260; is that correct? A . That is correct. Q So does this tell me that i f there's a n "X" in one of thos e columns , the samples t h a t they examined by gas chromatography most resembled the t r a c in g for that particular Aroclor? Is that corr e c t ? A . That is correct. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 14 5 WATER PCB-SD0000037913 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q . How did they to do that? Do you know what was the technique that was used? A . We describe how the GC works, and so on. Q - Well, however you have to do it to tell me how these tests were done to your understanding. A . As the sample i s processed through the instrument, the end result is a chart of peaks and valleys which graphically shows the response of the instrument to the presence or absence of the PCB. The analytical chemist then runs a known type of PCB through that same instrument at roughly the same level of concentration and he will again get a peak and valley pattern. He will then look at the two patterns and he will then describe the unknown as equivalent to a particular Monsanto Aroclor mixture, depending on how close the peaks and valleys match. It very seldom is a perfect match, but it's closer to one than it is to all the others, so when the chemist reports a certain concentration of a PCB as equivalent to Aroclor 1242, he is saying that, "As best I can tell, it looks GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 14 6 WATER PCB-SD0000037914 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 like 1242. It may net exactly be that, but that ' s what it looks like to me." That ' s what is meant by this "most typical of A r o c 1 o r r M s o and so, so when he puts an " X " in there, i t shows that the sample that h e looked a t o r at least one of the samples h e looked a t looked like the type of PCB li s t e d above the " X . " Q And you would agree that for s aun pies that were taken from fish, for example, that would be from the flesh of f ish ? A . In general, it is . They fillet the fish and analyze, yes. Q That would be PCB ' s that would have already been metabolized by the organism, the animal? A. That's a reasonable assumption. yes. Q. Well, if it had gotten into the flesh, that's about the only way; wouldn't you agree? A. Unless there's some entrapment in the -- it depends on how they cut that fillet 1 -- ~i with the skin on or not, and so on, so ; GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 14 7 | WATER PCB-SD0000037915 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 generally, it would have to go through the metabolic process to get into the tissue. Q. Now let's see. This first one, here, the first sample, we have air samples is a, three air samples that most typically resemble 1242. Is that correct? "" A . That's what it says, yes. Q. Then it says "PCB levels," and it says, ".05 milligrams PCB per cubic meter," so is that the measure of how much they found in the air? A. That's a way to express concentrations in air, yes. Q. Then it says "Analysis Techniques, "ECGC," electron capture gas chromatography? A. That's what that says, yes. Q. What were the PCB levels found? A. I'm sorry? Q. What were the levels found? A. Like you read, .05 milligrams, or -- yes, milligrams of PCB per cubic meter of air. Q . Okay, how about the water sample, what were the levels found? The water, they don't give us GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 14 8 WATER PCB-SD0000037916 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 numbers they just say they found them from the part per billion level up to the part per million level. Q. And in sediment, they found them in the part per billion level' to percentages? A. Right, so the wider ran g'e o f results there. Q But the levels, themselves, are not e x p r essed in the chart a nyway. A . Not on this chart, no. Q . And apparently, the 1242 did continue to persist in the environmental specimen s that were tested at the industrial sites. A . Yes. Q Then we go to another series of samples, and again the 1242 persisted. A . Near the sites, yes. Q . And this is nonindustria 1 sites. A. That is correct. Q. And all they found were tracings similar to 1254; is that correct? A. Thatisright. i | i j ! Q. Even in the flesh of fish, human fatbiopsy? ' GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 14 9 " WATERPCB-SD0000037917 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A . Yes. Q. They found 1254, specimens most like 1254? A. Yes . Q . To whom was this r'e port disseminated? Do you know? A. Let me see.You want me to describe who these individuals are that are listed here? They got copies of this report. Q. Did anyone else get the information contained in that report? A. I do not know. These individuals could have shared this information with I others that I'm not aware of. Q. Do you know if anyone outside of Monsanto received the information contained in that report? A. I do not know that. Q. Do you know if Monsanto was at that time making an effort to make the results of this report known? A. I do know that the intent was that the samples, for example, taken at the I customer sites that are listed on this report, those customers were informed of the GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 15 0 : -V WATER PCB-SD0000037918 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 data prior to the issuance of this report, s o the information was shared by others, but whether they received copies of this report, I do not know. Q. Do you know if the' information contained in that report was given"to any governmental agencies? A. Information was given or shared with governmental agencies, but I don't know -- I'm trying to think. Some of this information was shared with representatives of government agencies and laboratories at a meeting held in Duluth in March of 1970, a month before the date of this report, so what information was available a month before the issuance was shared, Dr. Keller, himself, stood up before the audience and reported them. Q. Were you there? A. Yes. Q . And you recall that? A . I ' m sorry? Q . And you recall that? A. Yes . In fact, i t seems that those comments were published i n a summary report GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST . LOUIS, MISSOURI WATER PCB-SD0000037919 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 issued out of that laboratory covering that meeting. Q. Which laboratory was that? A. The Duluth, Minnesota, EPA water laboratory. ' Q. Can I see that report"again for just one moment, please? (Witness complies) MR. McLAUGHLIN: Off the record a second. (Discussion off the record.) BY MR. COHEN: Q . To your knowledge, sir, was this the first such environmental analysis of PCB's done under the aegis of Monsanto? MR. MALIN: Object to the form of the question. I don't know what you mean by environmental analysis. Obviously, there were plenty of other environmental analyses, depending on how you are defining environmental analyses. If you think you understand the question, Mr. Papageorge, attempt to answer it. THE WITNESS: I think I do. It's oriented, of course, to PCB's, and he's ii I GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 15 2 WATER PCB-SD0000037920 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 asking if there were -- if this is the first report. MR. MALIN: Is that by Monsanto you are talking about? MR. COHEN: I asked him, "done ' under the aegis of Monsanto." That-' s what I asked him. A, I believe, yes, as best I recall, yes. BY.MR. COHEN: Q. This would have been the earliest one? A. Yes . Q. As you sit, or towards PCB's you were looking for PCB's in the environment? A. Yes. Q. This would have been the first one done under the aegis of Monsanto, looking for PCB's in the environment , and this i s the results of that? A . Yes. Keep in mind some o f t h o s studies started back in '69. This i s the first summary of that activity, yes. Q. Do you recall having an analysis I iii i i done on Pensacola bay shrimp? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 15 3 WATER PCB-SD0000037921 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. I recall, I recall analyses related to Pensacola, yes, at '69 or so, as I remember . Q. Is that the Pensacola Bay, Pensacola, Florida? ' A. Yes. ------- Q. Who was responsible for ordering these studies done? Do you know? A . I don't know. Q . Do I take it from that it wasn't you? A . I wasn't involved when the incident occurred down there at Escambia Bay which is the name of that bay. Q . What incident occurred? A . PCB's were detected in the bay and traced back to a leaking compressor on Monsanto's property. There was a leak in the piping of that unit, a small leak that was not noticeable, and they traced it back to that point. As a result, there were samples taken, as I remember, of the sediment around the compressor, the dirt around the compressor, and the waternearby, and yes, they did look at the shrimp, because there is GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 15 4 WATER PCB-SD0000037922 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 a commercial fisheries laboratory located at Gulf Breeze, Florida, that determined that the shrimp were sensitive to PCB's, and Monsanto was trying to determine the presence of PCB's in that area. Q. Let's talk about the' compressor for a moment. usedfor? What was the PCB fluid being A. It's a lubricant in the c ojn pressor. Q. As a lubricant in the compressor? A. In the moving parts. Q. Not a dielectric fluid,more like a hydraulic fluid but not as a working fluid? A. Pretty much like the motor oil in your car engine. Q. Just as a lubricant? A. A lubricant, yes. Q. Was that a usual use for PCB fluid? A. It's a, a common use. I don't know if it's usual . There are other oils available for compressors. This type is the fire resistant so when you get high temperatures, you don't have the potential GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 15 5 WATER PCB-SD0000037923 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 for fires and explosions. Q. What type of compressor was it? Do you know? Refrigerant compressor, air compressor? A. Air, air compress or . " Q . Now you said that the sh-rimp were sensitive to PCB's. What did you mean by that? A. The laboratory in Gulf Breeze exposed some new1y-hatched, I think that's the right term -- shrimp. Q Whatever shrimp d o . A . Juvenile shrimp in a static tank not out there in the bay, and they determined that these juvenile shrimp did not survive at very low-level concentrations of PCB's. They were quite sensitive. Q. So it was highly toxic to shrimp? A. To the baby shrimp. The adult shrimp tolerated it, not the baby shrimp, and that information was relayed to Monsanto Medical Department. Mr. Wheeler was active in that program. Q . What does "GO" mean, next to a person's name? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 15 6 I WATER PCB-SD0000037924 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A . " GO " ? General offices . Q Let me show you a document , sir, see if you can identify it for us. MR . COHEN : We ' 11 mark it a s Papageorge next (Papageorge Deposition Exhibit 7 marked for identification.) (Witness peruses said j document.) MR. MALIN: Do you have a question : i : on Papageorge 7? THE WITNESS: I have reviewed the document. ! MR. COHEN: Thank you, sir. 1 BY MR. COHEN: : Q. What is it? A. It's a copy of a memorandum dated December 3,1970, authored by Dr. E. S . Tucker , addressed to me. The subject, : II ; ! j j i : PCB content of Pensacola white or bay shrimp, in which he reports analyses of these shrimp I ! for the presence of PCB's. Q. Did they find PCB's in them? A. They did. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST . LOUIS , MISSOURI 15 7 j WATER PCB-SD0000037925 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q Which PCB? A. Aroclor, equivalent to Aroclor 1 2 5 4. Q Apparently, they made four separate samples out of the shrimp. They treated them differently, 1 some we ire whole, some w e r e shelled, et cetera, et cetera? A . Yes , s ir . Q Processed them in different ways? A . Yes. MR. COHEN: They were deveined. MR. McMANUS: Were they boiled or -- BY MR. COHEN: Q There is a n attachment that says "Retention times of EC peaks for unknown s and Aroclor 1254." Do you know what that is, sir? A . I believe I d o . Q Would you t ell us? A. It's a listing by peaks in which the peaks are designated by numbers 1 through 16, followed by a column entitled "Aroclor 1254 standard," so they used the Monsanto product as the standard and determined for GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 15 8 WATER PCB-SD0000037926 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 peak 1 retention times 2.1 seconds, peak 2, 2.6, and so on down the list. They then took the samples 1 through 4 that were described previously and compared the retention times for each of the peaks with the retention time determined for Aroclor 1254 and there appears to be, as I look through here, a close -- Q. Almost identical? ; A. Almost identical, yes. Q. Except for peak number 7, which i i ! appears to be absent from the samples. A. 7 is missing, in the samples . 11 | is present, of course, in the Aroclor 1254. Q. Nonetheless, the technician who ! analyzed these samples concluded that this , was Aroclor 1254 in the samples; is that . correct? A. Well, they normally don't say, j i : "I'm positive, it's --" they usually report ' it as saying, "The material I have observed in this, with this procedure, is equivalent to or similar to Aroclor 1254." 1 ! : Q. And then we have one more : attachment which is a map of where the GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 15 9 * * WATER PCB-SD0000037927 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 sampling was taking place? A. That is correct. Q. Do you know where the Monsanto plant is with respect to the area samples? A. Let's see if I can' locate it. " It's a very poor reproduction. I-1 us in the upper part, a little bit left of center, in this general area (Indicating) is where the plant is located. Q. Okay, do you want to draw a circle with the court reporter's red pen which he's been kind enough to agree to allow us to use for that purpose? A . It's in this general direction or area there (Indicating). Q. Let the record reflect that a circle was drawn on the third page of Exhibit, reflecting the location of the plant. BY MR. COHEN: Q. Now with respect to Papageorge 7, sir, can you tell me, was this information shared with anyone? A. As best I recall, I shared that personally with Dr. Thomas Dugan at the GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 16 0 WATER PCB-SD0000037928 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 federal laboratories in Gulf Breeze, Florida, where the original shrimp studies were conducted. Q. You say you shared it personally. Under what circumstances? ' A. Oh, I made it a point tT drop by every four to six months t o exchange notes with them and find out what they were doing and share with them what w e had done, and I reported that we had done this work. Q. This was a t the laboratory a t Escambia Bay? A. It's Gulf Breeze , Florida, is the official address . It's just outside Pensacola . Q. Do you know if it was shared with any other representative of any federal or state agency? A . Not that I know of. Q Do you know what the gross sales of A r o c1o r products time period in 1970 were in and around that ' on an annual basis? A . Whew. I used to know . I don't remember the number. I -- the closest I can come to that is, it's about 8 0 million pounds GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS S OURI 16 1 WATER PCB-SD0000037929 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 a year. I don't know how that translates to dollars. Q. You don't remember the price per pound? A. It changed with time. I just don't remember what it was at that "point. Q. If I were to suggest to you 21 million in sales in a given fiscal year, would that make sense to you? A. I have no way of evaluating that. Q. The information at one time was available, though, I gather? A. Oh, yes, yes, it was available. I just don't remember the number. Q. Was the Aroclor business, to your knowledge, profitable for Monsanto? A. It was profitable, yes. Q. It's apparent from the review of the documents that we've just had, that you apparently -- that your analytical abilities in that time period in 1970 permitted detection levels in the parts per billion range . A. Oh, yes. Yes. Q. Do you remember when you first had GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 16 2 WATER PCB-SD0000037930 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 analytical abilities to detect presence of PCB's in the parts per billion range? A. About the third quarter of 1969. Q. Do you remember when your laboratories developed the ability to have detection limits in the parts per ' trillion range? A. Trillion? Hmm, as best I recall, that occurred about eight months to a year later. Q. So that would have been in '71? A . 1 9 7 0. Q I'm sorry, 1 97 0. A . '69 to '70, yes. Q . Do you know when products that were substitutes for dielectric fluids containing PCB 's were d e v e 1 o p e d ? MR . MALIN: 0 b j e c t to the form o f that que s tion because I don ' t understand what you mean by "s i m i 1 a r . " Ther e always were substitutes for it, they sim ply weren ' t as suitable, so I don't know wh at that means MR . COHEN: Well, why don' t I hear that from your witness . I ' m sure he can say the same thing if he knows. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 16 3 WATER PCB-SD0000037931 1 A. There were available materials 2 that could have been used as dielectrics and 3 were being used. Examples include mineral 4 oil, and of course, the air, or gas-filled 5 units . The introduction of d'i fferent kinds 6 of materials, as best I recall,- beg-a n in 'll. 7 The materials I have in mind include 8 dioctophtha 1 ates for capacitors, and 9 silicones for transformers. 1 0 BY MR. COHEN: 1 1 Q. These were products that had 1 2 performance characteristics similar to the 1 3 Aroclor products? 1 4 A. Well, there were slight 1 5 differences . The principal difference , a s I 1 6 understand it, with capacitors, the 1 7 dioctophtha 1 ate is not inflammable, it will 1 8 burn, so that as I understand it, they had to 1 9 do, redesign the ballast units and include a, 2 0 a fuse-type device in it to trip when 2 1 temperatures or conditions reached an 2 2 unfavorable point. 2 3 I understand that the s i 1 i c ones 2 4 when used to retrofit a PCB- type unit, had 2 5 be downgraded . I n other words , they c o u 1 d GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 16 4 WATER PCB-SD0000037932 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 not do the job they originally could do in terms of the transfer of electrical power, Q. A transformer had to be downgraded? A. A transformer had to be downgraded, yes. That's just a n understanding I have. I' m not a transformer designer. That's really all I know about the substituted materials. Q. Who developed the substituted materials? Do you know? A. Would you help me with the word "develop"? Q. Yeah, was it Monsanto, was it GE, was it Westinghouse, was it Samsung, was it Coneco ? A. Well, again, the word J "development," I have trouble with that, in that you can develop a chemical by mixing other chemicals and producing an end product, ! | j i i 1 or you can develop technology for the application of that chemical. I personally don't know who is responsible for the j i I ij I development of dioctophtha 1 ate. That's a common plasticizer that many a chemical GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 16 5 \ ^ WATER PCB-SD0000037933 1 company makes or can make. I have an I I 2 understanding that General Electric took that ; 3 material, available material, and tried it j 4 out in capacitors and eventually reached a ; i -i 5 point where they felt that it' was feasible," 6 On silicones, I do k no w -t- h a t the 7 Dow-Corning Company wasinterested, I also 8 know that GE had their own capabilities for 9 the manufacture of silicones. I personally 1 0 do not know who took them to the laboratory 1 1 and put them in transformers and tested it. 1 2 That's all I really know. 1 3 Q. Do you know if Monsanto is in th 1 4 business of selling dielectric fluid at thi 1 5 time? 16 A, No. They did not succeed in 1 7 staying in the business. 1 8 Q. So they have gone outof the 1 9 business of selling dielectric fluid for 2 0 transformers? 2 1 A . Yes. 2 2 Q. They did not succeed in coming up 2 3 with a successor to their Aroclor product 2 4 line? 2 5 A. That is correct. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 16 6 WATER PCB-SD0000037934 1 i 2| i 3| 4i <1 5 ii 6: 7; i 8j 9 it 10 ij 1 1 !| ;i 12 ;| i! 13 :i I 14 15 .i 16 r i! ij 17 j! 1 8 ii 19 ij 2o ; t! 21 2 2 :,1 2 3 ;j 24 25 MR . INNELLI: Let's go off the recorc for one second . (Discussion off the record BY MR. COHEN: Q Mr . Papageorge, do" you know who J . A . Z ach is? .-- A . Yes . Q Who i s h e ? A . She was a member of Monsanto's Medical Department. I, I believe that she had t r ai n i ng in toxicology, and she also had some t r a i n i n g in epidemiology. Q Do you know what her degree was? A . No , I don't. Q T o your knowledge, did she or does she hold a Ph . D . ? A . I do not know. Q Do you know where Ms. Z a c h is a t this time? A . No Q She was an employee, however, o f Monsanto Chemical Company? A . For a period of time. yes. Q Do you know what that time period was? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 16 7 i WATER PCB-SD0000037935 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Oh, in the middle Seventies, a s best I recall. Q. Do you know who R. R. Suskind is? A. I believe, yes, Dr. Suskind, he's associated with -- in Cincin na ti. I forget:, I forget the institution. I just- d-o n't remember the details. I've met the man and that's all I know. Q. Were you aware of a recent allegation made by the United States Environmental Protection Agency against Ms. Zach and Dr. Suskind regarding some epidemiological studies that they had done on employees of Monsanto Chemical Company? A. I'm not aware of any EPA comments, Q. Were you involved in asking either of these people to do any epidemiological studies on any employees ofMonsanto Company? A. I have discussed the matter with the director of Monsanto's Medical Department at that period of time, and he agreed that such a study might be in order and a study wasinitiated. Q. And who was that person you GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 16 8 WATER PCB-SD0000037936 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 discussed it with? Dr. Kelly? A. No, Dr. Kelly had retired and it was Dr. George Roush. Q. So this is Dr. Roush? A. R-o-u-s-h. ' ' Q. What time period are your- referring to ? A. Oh, somewhere around '75, '76. Q. This would be what, tests on employees exposed to PCB 1 s? A. As best I recall, there was a study of employees who had died and had at least a six-month tour of duty in the PCB department. It was a mortality study, in other words. Q. And do you recall the results of that study? A. Ye s. , Q. What were they? A. It was found that increased lung cancer incident amongst that population when compared to the national average, but it was the same as the county average in which the plant was located and which many of these employees live. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 16 9 WATER PCB-SD0000037937 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. So it was not something that you ! or the analysts involved related to their exposure to PCB's in the plant? j j A . Well, the summary report that I saw indicated that this could' not be " attributed to their PCB exposure.a n-d i t w a s further complicated by the fact that because of the assignment practices in the plant . j ! j 1I j i | i j whereby the employees, by union agreement, have opportunities to bid on jobs that are : open, there's an awful lot of movement through that plant, which m a k e s the study extremely difficult . There are hundreds of chemicals. It was difficult t o really arrive at a conclusion. Q. Were you involved in any way in getting any of the records regarding these employees for the individuals who were doing the tests? A . No. Q. Were you involved in any way in any aspect of the tests othe r than having discussed it with Dr. Roush i n order to determine to do the test? A . I was only involv e d in the GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 17 0 WATER PCB-SD0000037938 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 discussion. Q. Were you involved in any other tests on Monsanto employees who were exposed to any other substance? A. No. ' Q. Do you know anything' a'b oil t t h e j j mortality tests or the epidemiological study that Dr. Suskind and Ms. Zach did regarding the mortality experience of workers exposed ! f to tetrach1orodibenzodiox i n? A. No. I've heard of it, but that's 1 it.Tetrach1orodibenzodioxin . : Q. And you are unaware of any criticism that has been directed against | j those individuals as a result of their tests? A. That is correct. MR. COHEN: Okay. j ! i i FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR. INNELLI: Q. Mr. Papageorge, earlier you had stated that you were the plant manager at the Anniston, Alabama, plant. When you took on your new assignment sometime in 1970, what j I j was the title that was given to you? A. Manager, EnvironmentalControl. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 17 1 f : A WATER PCB-SD0000037939 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q Was a new unit established called "Environmental Control"? A. It wasn't so much a unit, it was a one-man operation with a part-time secretary, and I don't know that you'd call that a unit, but -- ' Q. Okay, so you were the environmental control person for Monsanto? A . No , I was the environmental c on trol person for the PCB issue in that, in those bus i n e s s groups that sold PCB's. Q Okay. A . Not for all of Monsanto . Q T o whom did you report? A . M r . Howard Bergen, B-e-r-g- e - n . Q And what was Mr . Bergen's t i 11 e and responsibility? A . He was Business Group Direc tor. Fungal Fluids. In your capacity as Director of Environmental Control for PCB's, did you j i : become aware of any studies that Monsanto was involved in regarding the toxicity of PCB's? A. Certainly. Q. When was the earliest date you became aware of such a study? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 17 2 -i WATER PCB-SD0000037940 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. When I became plant manager at Anniston in 1965, and in preparing myself for the job, I read some reports and talked with the plant physician, and he made me aware of the toxicity studies that had been with PCB's in the Forties and Fifties. That w as my first exposure to toxicity studies with test animals and PCBs . Q. What was the name of the plant, Doctor? A. Dr. Francis, Jim, James Francis. Q. The toxicity studies that you just referred to, were they studies in which Monsanto was a participant? A. I would call them more Monsanto was a sponsor that requested the work and it was done by commercial laboratories in this kind of work. Q. It was February of 1970 that you assumed your new duties as Director of Environmental Control for PCB's? A. It was January -- as manager, not director . Q. Manager? A. Director is a step above. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 17 3 WATER PCB-SD0000037941 1 Q Just trying to 2 A. You promoted me. 3 Q . -- give m e some additional income 4 right? Were there any ongoing toxici ty 5 studies in January o f 1970? ' - 6 A . Yes. ............ . 7 Q. Were you made aware of those 8 studies at that point in time? 9 A . Yes . 1 0 Q. Can you describe for me what 1 1 studies were taking place? 1 2 A. At that point in time, the ongoing 1 3 studies included a lifetime rat feeding 1 4 study, an 18-month white leghorn chicken 1 5 feeding study, there was a rat reproduction 1 6 study, there was an 18-month Beagle dog 1 7 feeding study. That's all that comes to mind 1 8 at the moment. 1 9 Q. Okay. 2 0 Do you know who was conducting the 2 1 lifetime rat feeding study? 2 2 A. It was at the Industrial Bio-Test 2 3 Laboratories, Northbrook, Illinois. 2 4 Q. Now, how long had the lifetime rat 2 5 feeding study been going on when you became GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 174 * WATER PCB-SD0000037942 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 aware of it? A . Nine months to a year. Q study? Do you know who commissioned this A . You mean wh in Monsanto was -- Q study. Yes, who in Monsantorequested the A. Of course, it came out of Monsanto's Medical Department so that officially would be Dr. Kelly, but it was managed for Dr. Kelly by Elmer Wheeler. Q. Now, when you say managed for Dr. Kelly by Elmer Wheeler, what do you mean by managed? A. He is the individual in Monsanto who was the closest to this work in terms of discussing the protocols to be used, the number of test animals involved, the feeding levels, the dates of starting the tests, the kinds of reports that were expected, the types of chemicals to be tested, and the levels . Q Who would have been involved in selecting Industrial Bio-Test? A . Primarily, Dr. Kelly, assisted by GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 17 5 WATER PCB-SD0000037943 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Elmer Wheeler, and it's quite likely, although, of course, I wasn't there when they started, there, at that time there was a Dr. Bill Hunt, a toxicologist on the staff who would participate in that kind of discussion. Q. Do you know what criteria were used for selecting the laboratories to run thetests? A. No, I don't. Q. Who would know what criteria was used? A. Dr. Kelly for sure. i Q. Anyone else? A. He's the only one living, so -- Q. I understand that Mr. Wheeler is no 1 onger alive. What about Dr. Hunt? A. He died. Q. Whatwas the objective of the i i I life time rat feeding study? A. The purpose ofthe study was to e s t a b1is h whether -- what, if any, effects are possible in mammals by exposure to the di f f erent kinds of commercial PCB's. There I was no known protocol for evaluating i n d u strial chemicals. There were, of course, GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 17 6 WATER PCB-SD0000037944 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 protocols for evaluating pesticides and for evaluating food additives in drugs. Monsanto,, as I understood it, through its contacts in the governmental agencies, tried to come up with some government-approved test methods and did not succeed in getting any agency to support any kind of program. Therefore, Monsanto chose to mimic the testing that's done for food additives, although we had no intention in the world of putting PCB's in foods, it was considered to be the most severe test, so the objective of that was to try to establish some kind of test that would show an effect, if any, that could later be looked at by those that understand toxicology and attempt to extrapolate it to human beings and to wildlife, if possible. Q. What is your understanding of what prompted Monsanto to have a protocol for such a test developed? A. It's really stimulated by the reports that they were present, alleged to be present in wild birds, pelicans and peregrine falcon being two examples that were quite GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 17 7 WATER PCB-SD0000037945 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 popular in those days, much speculation about what effect it might have on mammals, warm-blooded mammals, and of course, there's also some speculation at the time what effect is it going to have, if any, on fish, and this is why the rat was selected a'sr something that was available for testing that could represent the mammals, and the dog being a higher species of that same group, the white leghorn chicken was picked, as I understood it, because it was the only available bird, available in controlled quantities, you know, health-wise, as well as numbers, because Monsanto missed an opportunity to place an order for mallard ducks, which only hatch once a year, and didn't want to lose a full year waiting for the next opportunity, and there were some fish studies planned to be conducted also by Industrial Bio-Test Laboratories to represent the aquatic species and what effect that might have. So really, the testing was done in response to the, the question of what effect, if any, are the PCB's in the environment having or could have. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 17 8 WATER PCB-SD0000037946 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 3 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q Now, the lifetime rat feeding study, how long was that to last? A . Oh, the rats, most of them will live about two years, so the tests are designed with two years in mind, with the ' sacrifices periodically, to see if "anything is developing. Q Now, when was that study to be concluded? Or when was it concluded? A . As I remember, the tool study was concluded and reported in 1972. Q, Now, when you say reported, in what form was it reported? A . It's a bound report from the laboratory to Monsanto. Q . From Industrial Bio-Test? A . No . Q . Monsanto? A . Yes . 1 i Q And to whom was the record made at : a Monsanto. A . To Dr. Kelly and his department. j Q Did you, were you a recipient of the report? A. I received a copy, yes. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 17 9 WATER PCB-SD0000037947 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q . And did you review it? A. I only reviewed the summary sections, because I'm not qualified to understand the detailed technical parts, the pathologist's report, and all' the technical details. I wouldn't have -- I did "not understand them. Q. Were there any plans to prepare any articles for medical journals arising from the findings of the report? A. There were plans. In fact, there was a report given before a government-sponsored meeting by the Bio-Test Laboratories. j A. Director of the studies, reporting the status of the studies by December 1971, i i j as I recall. Q. And who was the director of Industrial Bio-Testing? l ! A. Dr. -- let me think. The original director was Dr. Otis Fancher, F-a-n-c-h-e-r , but he retired, and as best I recall, Dr. j Kepplinger, K-e-p-p-1-i-n-g-e-r, reported the : status of the studies to this group in North Carolina in 1970, December 1970. - GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 18 0 1 ^ WATER PCB-SD0000037948 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Did Dr. Otis Fancher participate in the study , itself? A. Oh, yes, when he was still employed by the laboratories, he was the director and he participated in the, whatever a director does in such a laboratory. He didn't massage the rats himself, but he made sure the program was started properly. Q. Did he participate in the establishment of the protocols? A. Yes, he did, yeah, along with Elmer Wheeler, yeah, he was involved in all of that. Q. So - A. And he picked the staff, the personnel that's going to do the work, and so on . Q. Explain for me the lines of communication between Monsanto and Industrial Bio-Test during the course that the studies were running. A. Well, the primary contact, from where I was situated, was Elmer Wheeler. Initially, he was held by Dr. Bill Hunt until Dr. Hunt died, and Dr. Hunt was replaced by GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 18 1. WATER PCB-SD0000037949 1 Dr. Levinskas. Dr. Hunt and Dr. Levinskas 2 were the individuals who helped Dr. Wheeler 3 in making trips to the laboratory and 4 communicating as appropriate, and -- by 5 telephone or by mail, keeping on top of 6 things. I don't know how else to that was 7 the line of communication. 8 Q . Now, you've indie a t e d or t e 9 that Elmer Wheeler was invol v e d in the 1 0 d e v elopment of the protocol for these 1 1 A . Yes. 1 2 Q Did Monsanto, thr ough Elmer 1 3 Wheeler, establish the protocol and send it 1 4 to Industrial Bio-Test? 1 5 A. No, it was a case of Elmer Wheeler 1 6 sat down with representatives of Industrial 17 Bio-Test Laboratories in St. Louis, the 1 8 Bio-Test laboratories representatives came to 1 9 St. Louis. They sat down and talked about 2 0 what is the best way to do the study, and 2 1 they discussed different kinds of protocols 2 2 in terms of how to establish the feeding 2 3 levels that would be appropriate, how many 2 4 animals to start in the study, were the 2 5 animals available, and from what animal GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 18 2 WATER PCB-SD0000037950 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 breeding laboratory, what kind of testing would be done as the program progressed, in terms of blood samples, tissue samples, how many animals would be sacrificed, and when, how many -- and what kind of samples would be taken, and how would these samples"be preserved. There's details that I even don't understand, but that's the kind of discussion that was held. Dr. Fancher and his staff then went back to the laboratory and put this all down in a document,, summarizing the approach that they felt was proper, and mailed it back to St. Louis and St. Louis concurred, through Elmer Wheeler, that this was okay, let's get started . Q. Was there a regular schedule where information garnered from the study would be sent to Monsanto via Dr. Wheel e r ? A . Yes. Q. Who besides Dr. Fan c h e r was involved for Industrial Bio-Te st? A. Oh, I mentioned Dr. Kepplinger -- Q. Was he involved in the initial meeting in St. Louis? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 1 81 WATER PCB-SD0000037951 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A . Oh There were so many meetings held, I can't distinguish one from the other. I believe he was, yes. (Pause for court reporter to change notep ad s) - (Recess) - - (Discussion off the record. ) BY MR. INNELLI : Q . Mr . Papageorge, to whom did Dr. H ixn t report? A . To Mr. Wheeler. Q . To Mr. Wheeler? 1 | i 1 i 1 1 A . Yes Q . And when Dr. Hunt died, his replacement wa s ? A . Dr . Levinskas. Q . Dr . Levinskas. Dr. Levinskas in turn reported to Mr. Wheeler? j 1 ii i j i i A. Q. Kelly? Yes And Mr. Wheeler reported t o D r . ii A . Yes | Q . To your knowledge, was Mr. Wheeler aware of all communications between Monsanto j i ; and Industrial Bio-Test on the seri e s o f GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MIS S OURI 18 4 i i iit i | 1 ^ WATER PCB-SD0000037952 1 tests that we've talked about, the lifetime 2 rat feeding study, the 18-month white-leg 3 chicken, the rat reproduction, and the 4 18-month Beagle dog studies? 5 A . Yes. ' j l 6 Q. If correspondence was to be ! 7 exchanged between Monsanto and Industrial 8 Bio-Test regarding the results of any of 9 those tests , to your knowledge would Mr. 1 0 Wheeler have to review the correspondence | I 1 1 before it went out? 1 2 A. That would be the normal ! 1 3 procedure , yes. J | 14 Q. Would you have a n opportunity to j iI 1 5 review any of thecorrespondence? j 1 6 A . No . , ! i 1 7 Q. Would Dr. Kelly review any of the ; 1 8 correspondence? 1 9 A. Yes. 2 0 Q. All of it? | II 21 A. When he's available, in town, not ; 22 2 3 Q. Dr. Kelly left Monsanto in 2 4 November of 1974? : 25 A . Yes . ' i GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI ! 18 5 WATER PCB-SD0000037953 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q And who was Dr. Kelly's replacement ? A . Dr. George Roush. Q Now, did the procedure change after November of 1974? A . No. -- `' Q So Dr. -A . Just Dr. Roush replaced D r . Kelly -- Q . So Dr . -- A . -- in -- Q. I'm sorry, go ahead. A. In the lineof communication. Q . So Dr. Roush, then, would have t o review and approve any correspondence tha t would be exchanged between Monsanto and Industrial Bio -Test? A . Yes Q And where is Dr. Roush today? A . The last I heard. he is still l n t I the St. Louis area. He retired. Q I ' d like to s how you a documen t which we will have m a r k e d as Papageorge 8 The form I ' m going to g i ve it to you in i s as follows. The first page is a letter w h i c h GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 18 6 WATER PCB-SD0000037954 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 bears your signature, and then the next two pages have been previously marked as Kelly 26. I'm going to ask you to take a look at all three pages and identify it for the record. (Witness peruses' s a*T d document.) A. I have reviewed the documents. BY MR. INNELLI: Q . 11 is my understanding that the letter dated March 18, 1975, is the cover letter to the pages which have been marked as Kelly 2 6. A. That is correct. Q . Could you then identify what will become Papageorge number 8? A . This exhibit is a letter dated March 1 8 , 1 9 7 5, and authored by me and mailed to Dr. -- or to Mr. Dan Albert, Westinghouse Electric Corporation . Attached to that letter is a three-page question-and-answer summary. This is in response to Mr. Albert ' s letter that he had sent to me in early February of '75. Q. Now, you've said that you authored GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 1 R7 WATER PCB-SD0000037955 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 the letter. Did you author the three-page question-and-answer sheet? A . No . Q. Do you know who did author it? A. Yes . ' Q. Who was that individual?" A. Mr.Elmer Wheeler. Q. Were you the recipient of the questions? A. Yes. Q. And did you turn them over to Mr Wheeler? A, Yes. Q. And asked him to prepare the responses? A. Yes. Q. Didyou have any input or any participation in the preparation of the responses? A. Oh, I had discussions with Mr. Wheeler. I don't know that I added anything to what he was proposing. I was interested in what his reaction and comments might be. Other than that, I just told him, "Will you please put itall in writing so I can forward i I i II GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 18 8 i WATER PCB-SD0000037956 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 it to Mr. Albert. Q. You say that you don't know whether you had any additions. Did you have any deletions havemade? from comments Mr. . Wheeler may A . No . ' '' I ! | | MR. INNELLI: I have no further j questions a t this time. Thank you. MR .McMANUS : Mr. Papageorge I I I have noquestions foryou, thank you. MR . MCLAUGHLIN: Can I ask off the j I record? (Discussion off the record.) MR . COHEN: questions? Does anybody have any i ii j MS . GROSS: No. Thank you MS . COONELLY: I have one question. EXAMINATION BY MS. COONELLY: Q. Mr . Papageorge, you asked earlier about after the PCB produc t s leaving the plant, you knew that some PCB products were shipped to railroad locations; is that right? A . Did I say it with those words ? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI WATER PCB-SD0000037957 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. No, you didn't say it in those words . A. I recall seeing lists which refer to railroads. I am -- my memory is fuzzy in terms of whether it was die1ec trie fluid or other chemicals. I do not have the records to peruse personally so I cannot determine that for a certainty, but it is possible and quite likely, because it was a very common practice, for the service companies like the GE's and the Westinghouses and others, to order the material, charge it to their account, but ship it to this address , is what I meant earlier with my reference to "Bill to" and "Ship to." Q. Thank you. I know you were no longer the plant manager in 1976 or thereafter, but are you aware of any shipment PCB ' s to Conrail -- -- A . I'm not - Q -- from Monsanto? A . I don't recall any personally. Q But you probably wouldn't have had knowledge of that anyway? A. Not that kind of detail, unless I GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 19 0 WATER PCB-SD0000037958 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 had a chance to look at records. MS. COONELLY: Thank you. EXAMINATION BY MR. McLAUGHLIN: Q. Have you retired from Monsanto. A. Yes, sir. Q. And when did you retire? A. My last working day, I'll have to think, December 31st, 1986. I have to think about it. MR. McLAUGHLIN: Are we done? MR. COX: I think we're done. MS . COONELLY: No further questions. (Whereupon, a t 3:15 p.m., the deposition was concluded. ) i GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 19 1 WATER PCB-SD0000037959 1 COMES NOW THE WITNESS, WILLIAM 2 B. PAPAGEORGE, and having read the foregoing 3 transcript of the deposition taken on the 4 17th day of July, 1991, acknowledges by 5 signature hereto that it is a' true and 6 accurate transcript of the testiirio n y given on 7 the date hereinabove mentioned. 8 i | i i 9 10 1 1 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE I 12 13 1 4 Subscribed and sworn to before me 1 5 this day o f 16 1 7 My Commission expires: _______, 19 9 1. JOSEPHINE S. N1BL0CK NOTARY PUBLIC STATE OF MISSOURI ST. LOUIS COUNTY MY COMMISSION EXP. JAN. 15.1995 i 18 19 20 2 1 Notary Public 22 23 24 25 GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 19 2 WATER PCB-SD0000037960 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 STATE OF MISS OUR I ) SS : ) CITY OF ST. LOUIS ) I J. Bryan Jordan, notary public in and for the State of Missouri, duly commissioned, qualified and auth o'ri'z e d to administer oaths and to certify depositions, do hereby certify that pursuant to agreement in the civil cause now pending and undetermined in the Court of Common Pleas of the County of Philadelphia, State of Pennsylvania, and in the United States District Court for t he Eastern District of Pennsylvania, to be used in the trial of said cause in said court, I was attended at the offices of Brown & James, in the City of St. Louis, State of Missouri, by the aforesaid witness and by the aforesaid attorneys, on the 17th day of July, 1991. The said witness, being of sound mind and being by me first carefully examined and duly cautioned and sworn to testify the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in the case aforesaid, thereupon testified a s is shown in the foregoing GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MISSOURI 1 93 WATER PCB-SD0000037961 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 transcript , said testimony being by me reported in shorthand and caused to be transcribed into typewriting, and that the foregoing pages correctly set forth the testimony of the aforemention'ed witness , toge ther with the questions propounded by counsel and remarks and objections thereto , .- and is in all respects a full, true, correct i j and comple te transcript of the questions propounded to and the answer s given by said witness; that signature of the deponent was not waived by agreement of counsel. I further certify that I a m not of c ouns e1 or attorney for either of the parties i j i I j i l to said suit, not related to nor interested in any of the parties or their attorneys. Witness my hand and notarial seal a t St. Louis , Missouri , this JLdiit day of | I , 1991. My c ommis sion expires July 2 0 , 1 9 9 4. J. Bryan Jordan Notary Public in and for the State of Missouri j t ; j GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 19 4 WATER PCB-SD0000037962 DEPOSITION CORRECTION SHEET In Re: Pool, /? a , Irdad \f fyrp FtP L/ J-f tfQ /-? o'? Upon reading the deposition and before subscribing thereto, the deponent indicated the following changes should be made: Page Line Should read: ?* Reason assigned for change: - tn /7Vo -L n Cd ro <rc t da Page / 2- Line /& Should read: , Pbi-hfra/'C Reason assigned for change: , . -/t- t/nhtfdn Page Line Should read: 2- I 3 ... or Reason assigned for change: yld / ** " Trapse npb on Page Line ,, Should read: . 4-h^ P Reason assigned for change: ~Tirarl`?Crt, pph<TM nr(a<- - apPTMPr Page t-f Line / 2. Should read: _____ So**7 e r ca d Reason assigned for change: ~Tra ta^Crt pb< & oph# I ~f~ b !-cndt , Page !ZO Line / Should read: -e Reason assigned for change: / *7 ee*' -Lmcoyrrct hz. ,ob P 3's - Page ,<7 2. 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