Document Rj6JLzzwwRbvx6eGD5kGwp78z

SUPERIOR FOR THE STATE FOR THE COUNTY COURT OF CALIFORNIA OF LOS ANGELES TRANS, WESTERN PIPELINE COMPANY, PLAINTIFF, VS. MONSANTO COMPANY AND DOES 1 THROUGH 200 INCLUSIVE, DEFENDANTS. ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) NO. BC026959 DEPOSITION OF JACK T. GARRETT APRIL 1, 1992 GORE REPORTING COMPANY 100 NORTH BROADWAY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 1-800-878-6750 (314) 241-6750 STLCOPCB4026313 1 SUPERIOR COURT 2 FOR THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA 3 FOR THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES 4 5 TRANSWESTERN PIPELINE 6 COMPANY, 7 8 Plaintiff, ) 9 1 0 vs . ) NO. BC 026959 11 1 2 MONSANTO COMPANY AND 1 3 DOES 1 THROUGH 200 1 4 INCLUSIVE, 15 1 6 Defendants . ) 17 1 8 Deposition of JACK T. GARRETT, taken 1 9 on behalf of the Plaintiff, at the offices 2 0 of Bryan Cave, One Metropolitan Square, in 2 1 the City of St. Louis, State of Missouri, 2 2 on the 1st day of April, 1992 before Ronald 2 3 A. Gore, Registered Professional Reporter 2 4 and Notary Public. 25 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 9 STLCOPCB4026314 1 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL: 2 3 FOR THE PLAINTIFF: 4 Mr. James P. Tallon 5 Shearman & Sterling 6 725 South Figueroa Street 7 Los Angeles, California 90017 8 and 9 Ms. Christie A. Patrick 1 0 Senior Counsel 1 1 Enron 1 2 Interstate Pipeline Company 1 3 1400 Smith Street 1 4 Houston, Texas 77251 1 5 FOR THE DEFENDANT MONSANTO COMPANY: 1 6 Mr. Charles F. Preuss 1 7 Bronson, Bronson & McKinnon 1 8 505 Montgomery Street 1 9 San Francisco, California 9411], 20 21 22 23 24 25 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 3 STLCOPCB4026315 1 INDEX 2 PAGE 3 Examination by Mr. Tallon 6 4 5 6 EXHIBITS 7 8 Transwestern Exhibit 110 13 9 (Deposition notice of Jack T. Garrett) 1 0 Transwestern Exhibit 111 109 1 1 (Tran Numbers 058059-058060) 1 2 Transwestern Exhibit 112 123 1 3 (Letter from Garrett to Patrick) 1 4 Transwestern Exhibit 113 136 1 5 (Letter From Garrett to Hinson, 1 6 Tran Numbers 019567) 1 7 Transwestern Exhibit 114 142 1 8 (Letter from Garrett to Cheever, 1 9 Tran Numbers 019568-019569) 2 0 Transwestern Exhibit 115 181 2 1 (Memorandum by Garrett, Tran Numbers 2 2 017181-017183) 2 3 Transwestern Exhibit 116 193 2 4 (Letter from Garrett to Wheeler, Tran 2 5 Numbers 025673-025675) GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI STLCOPCB4026316 1 Transwestern Exhibit 117 2 (Letter from Tucker to Garrett, 20 1 3 Tran Number 022090) 4 Transwestern Exhibit 118 208 5 (Letter from Wright, Tran Number 085272) 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 i GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. . LOUIS, MISSOURI G STLCOPCB4026317 1 JACK T. GARRETT 2 of lawful a g e , having been first duly sworn 3 to testify the truth. the whole truth. and 4 nothing but the truth in the case 5 aforesaid, deposes and says in reply to 6 oral interrogatories propounded as follows, 7 to-wi t : 8 EXAMINATION 9 QUESTIONS BY MR. TALLON: 1 0 Q. Would you state your fu 11 name for 1 1 the record, please? 12 A. Jack T. Garrett. G-a-r -r-e-t-t . 1 3 Q. Mr. Garrett, I'm Jim Ta lion, I'm 1 4 an attorney representing Transwe stern 1 5 Pip eline Company in a case that' s pending 1 6 in Los Angeles, California again s t 1 7 Monsanto. Just before the depos i t i o n 1 8 started you met my colleague, Ch r i s t i e 1 9 Patrick. 2 0 A. Yes. 2 1 Q. Who is from Transwestern, and she 2 2 will be joining us in the room. For most 2 3 of today and perhaps into tomorrow I'm 2 4 going to be asking you some questions, and 2 5 I just wanted to lay a couple of ground GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI STLCOPCB4026318 1 rules before we get started. If I ask you 2 a question and you respond, I will ass u m e 3 from the response that means that you 4 understood what I was asking about, th a t 5 you understood the language I used in that 6 question. If that's not the case, the n you 7 should feel free to stop and to say th a t 8 you didn't understand it. 9 A . All right. 1 0 Q. Therefore, we can deal with a 1 1 clean record. 1 2 A . Okay. 1 3 Q. Is 429 Geyer Forest Drive in S t . 1 4 Louis, Missouri your home address? 1 5 A. That is correct. 1 6 Q. And are you currently a consu 1 t a n t 1 7 in industrial hygiene and occupational 1 8 health management? 1 9 A . Yes. 2 0 Q. Could you please, Mr. Garrett 2 1 tell me whether or not you have ever g i v e n 2 2 testimony in a deposition such as this one 2 3 before today? 2 4 A . Yes. 2 5 Q. And can you tell me how many times i I GORE REPORTING COMPANY S T . LOUIS MISSOURI 7 1 you gave testimony in a deposition s u c h as 2 this one before today? 3 A . Ten or twelve times. 4 Q In any of the ten or twelve times 5 where you gave deposition testimony was a 6 subject of deposition testimony 7 polychlorinated biphenyls, sometimes known 8 as P C B s ? 9 A. As a major subject, no. 1 0 Q . Was it ever a s u b j e c t , m a j r or 1 1 minor, in any of t h o s e t e n or t w e 1 v e cases? 1 2 A. Minor, yes. 1 3 Q . Can you. i f y o u k n o w , t e 1 1 me the 1 4 occasions on w h i c h y o u gave t e s 11 m o n y that 1 5 related to PCBs? 1 6 A. No. I don't recall. 1 7 Q Can you tell me when the most 1 8 recent of those depositi o n s o ccurred? 1 9 A . I could bound i. t by saying within 2 0 the last three years. 2 1 Q. And can you tell me, if you're 2 2 able, what kind of time span those ten or 2 3 twelve depositions covered from the 2 4 earliest to the latest? 2 5 A. Probably 20 years. GORE REPORTING COMPANY , ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI R STLCOPCB4026320 1 Q. Were any of the ten or twelve 2 depositions that you believe you gave 3 connected with your work for Monsanto? 4 A . All o f them were. 5 Q And a t those d e p o s i t i o n s do you 6 believe that you were r e p r e s e n t e d by 7 counsel for Monsanto? 8 A . I was represented by counsel. How 9 the counsel got there and whose pay he was 1 0 in, I do not know. 1 1 Q. Did you retain personally any of 1 2 the attorneys who accompanied you to any of 1 3 those ten or twelve depositions? 1 4 A . No. ] 5 Q. To the best of your knowledge, was 1 6 the attorney supplied or provided for you 3. 7 by Monsanto? 1 8 A. Or one of its law firms, I 1 9 presume. 2 0 Q Following any o f those ten or 2 1 twelve depositions did you r e v i e w 2 2 deposition transcript where the questions 2 3 and answers were shown to you in typed 2 4 format? 2 5 A. Yes. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 9 STLCOPCB4026321 1 Q And did you make corrections or 2 changes on any of those ten or twelve 3 deposition transcripts? 4 A . Ye s . b Q To the best of your kn owledge, 6 were copies of those transcript s provided 7 to the atto rneys who accompanie d you to 8 those depos i t i o n s ? 9 A . I don't know, 1 0 Q To the best of your kn owledge, 1 1 were copies of the transcripts of those ten 1 2 or twelve d epositions furnished t o 1 3 Monsanto? 1 4 A I assume so But it's an 1 5 assumption. 1 6 Q. Have you ever testified at a trial 1 7 as distinct from a deposition? 1 8 A . Yes. 1 9 Q And on how many occasions do y 2 0 believe that you testified at trials? 2 1 A . One e in a full trial. 2 2 Q And did your testimony at that 2 3 trial r elate to your work for Monsanto? 24 A . No . 2 5 Q Was that testimony related to GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI in STLCOPCB4026322 1 something personal? 2 A . No . 3 Q. Was it related to work that you 4 did after you left Monsanto? 5 A . Yes. 6 Q . Was the subject of the trial 7 testimony -- did the subject of the trial 8 testimony in any part include testimony 9 with respect to PCBs? 1 0 A . No. 1 1 Q. As you sit here today, Mr. 1 2 Garrett, I just want to be sure, is there 1 3 anything at all you recollect about the 1 4 testimony you gave in the ten or twelve 1 5 depositions that you believe you testified 1 6 in as it related to testimony regarding 1 7 PCBs? 1 8 A. Testimony is the words of an 1 9 individual, and, no, I do not remember the 2 0 words exactly. 2 1 Q. Can you tell me -- understanding 2 2 that time has passed since you gave the 2 3 individual depositions, can you tell me 2 4 without specific reference to the precise 2 5 words used in the depositions what the (GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 11 STLCOPCB4026323 1 subjects of those depositions were as they 2 pertained to PCBs ? 3 A . In a 1 1 of those cases they were 4 not s p e c i f i c a 1 1 y f o r P C B , the subjec t of 5 the d e p o s i t i o n was e 1 s e w h ere. 6 Q. Understanding that the subject of 7 the deposition did not exclusively concern 8 PCBs, do you rememberany aspect of the 9 deposition in terms of its subject matter 1 0 that touched on PCBs? 1 1 A . As a general subject of 1 2 toxicology . 1 3 Q . As you sit here today, and I do 1 4 not refer now to specific words, but do you 1 5 remember anything in addition to the fact 1 6 that the subject was the general subject of 1 7 toxicology? ] 8 A. It was secondary to the primary 1 9 purpose of the deposition, and so I really 2 0 don't know. ' 2 1 Q. So your memory today is that the 2 2 only thing you can say about those 2 3 depositions is that insofar as they touched 2 4 on PCBs the subject in general was 2 5 toxicology? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI i -> STLCOPCB4026324 i 1 A . That is correct 2 Q And you r e m e m b e 3 that? 4 A . No . 5 Q I just want to 6 to Mr. Preuss. You're aware that we have a 7 request in for the deposition transcript of 8 all of the witnesses who will be testifying 9 in this case, and in many cases we have 1 0 received a deposition transcript, but none 1 1 for Mr. Garrett. ]2 MR. PREUSS: The subject matter 1 3 didn't concern PCBs, as I understand it. I 1 4 wasn't involved in that, but -- 15 MR. TALLON: Well, something in 1 6 the depositions did. In any event, we 1 7 would make a request for production of the 1 8 deposition transcripts in the possession, 1 9 custody or control of Monsanto of Mr. 2 0 Garrett. Let me have marked as the next 2 1 exhibit in our continuing series, which 2 2 will be Transwestern Number 110, a 2 3 deposition notice of Jack T. Garrett. 2 4 (Transwestern Deposition Exhibit Number 2 5 110 mark'd for identification). IGORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI STLCOPCB4026325 1 MR. TALLON: Mr. Garrett, I'm 2 showing you now what the court reporter has 3 marked as Transwestern Exhibit Number 110, 4 a deposition notice of Jack T. Garrett in 5 the case of Transwestern Pipeline Company 6 versus Monsanto Company, and I'll ask you 7 if you've seen that deposition notice 8 before today? 9 A. No. I have seen similar ones. 1 0 Q. Mr. Garrett, before this 1 1 deposition today you met with counsel for 1 2 Monsanto? 13 M R . PREUSS: You can answer that 1 4 yes or no. 1 5 A . Yes. 16 MR. TALLON: Have you -- 1 7 A . I think. 1 8 Q. And I take it the "I think" is 1 9 that you're not sure who Mr. Preuss is 1 2 0 representing? 21 A. No. No, I know who Mr. Preuss is 2 2 representing, but you talked about an 2 3 attorney from Monsanto. 2 4 Q. I'm sorry, I thought I said for 2 5 Monsanto. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI A STLCOPCB4026326 1 A . Yes . I'm s o r r y . T h e n the answer 2 i s yes. 3 Q - All right . I take it from that 4 a n s w e r that you met with Mr. P r e u s s 7 5 A . Yes 6 Q Did you e x a mine any files that you 7 may h a v e at home or in your office. if you 8 have an office, to determine whether or not 9 you had documents that -- 10 A. No. They were left when I 1 1 retired. ] 2 Q. Do you have a home office? 1 3 A. Yes. ]. 4 Q. And do you keep certain files 1 5 there? 16 A. Yes. Files on my children, I 1 7 think, primarily. 1 8 Q. You don't have a correspondence 1 9 file dating from your years at Monsanto? 2 0 A . No. ' 2 1 Q. Do you have any materials at home 2 2 that relate to Monsanto? 2 3 A. Other than retirement documents, 24 no . 2 5 Q. You don't have any files off-site, GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI STLCOPCB4026327 1 that is to say, not in your home but i n 2 storage or the like that relate.to 3 Monsanto? 4 A . No. Excuse me. I have boo k s and 5 documents connected with written, pu b 1 i s h e d 6 items, and those may cover PCBs and a great 7 number of other materials. But they ' re 8 purchasedbooks. 9 Q. Can you just tell me in gen e r a 1 1 0 what kind of books you're talking ab out? 1 1 A. Industrial hygiene books, 1 2 toxicology books, industrial safety books . 1 3 Q. Are any of the books or oth e r 1 4 works that you referred to works or books 1 5 that were privately published by Mon santo? 1 6 A . No. 1 7 Q. Are you the author of any o f the 1 8 books or other works that you have a t home? 1 9 A. I authored a book, yes. 2 0 Q. What is the name of that bo ok? 2 1 A. It's on the -- the name of it is 2 2 Industrial Hygiene Management. 2 3 Q. And what was the year of 2 4 publication of that work? 25 A. Oh, gosh. Eight years ago. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI STLCOPCB4026328 l 1 about. That would be my guess. It needs 2 to go into second edition, and we probably 3 will start on that in a few days -- in a 4 few weeks. 5 Q. Who is your publisher, Mr. 6 Garrett? 7 A. Wiley. 8 Q. Now, you are a high school 9 graduate, correct? 1 0 A . Yes. 3 3 Q. Could you please describe to me 1 2 your formal education following high 1 3 school? 3 4 A. Aside from my military education? 1 5 Q . Yes. 3 6 A. I think I went to school more 1 7 often in the Army than I did elsewhere. I 3 8 have a BS degree in chemistry from Oklahoma 1 9 State University at Stillwater, Oklahoma, 2 0 and an MS degree in inorganic physical 2 1 chemistry from the University of Tennessee, 2 2 Knoxville. 23 Q. In what year did you receive your 2 4 BS degree from Oklahoma State? 2 5 A. '56. No, '58, I beg your pardon. |G 0 R E REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI I 17 ' STLCOPCB4026329 CD 1 '58, I'm sorry. Wait. Hell, the 2 was over in '46, I got out in March o f 3 '46. 4 Q Foil o w i n g your mil i t ary s e r vice 5 you went to c oil e g e on the G . I . b i 1 1 ? 6 A . Yes. I had e n o u g h t i m e t o get my 7 Master's as well. 8 Q. What year did you receive your 9 Master ' s? 1 0 A . 1 9 4 9. J ] Q. Do you have any additional formal 1 2 education? 1 3 A. Depends on what you mean by 1 4 formal. 1 5 Q Did you ever begin a P h .D program? 1 6 A . I had o ne one set up at Tennessee, 1 7 but it went to p o t . If you r e m e m b e r in 1 8 1949 -- 1 9 MR. PREUSS: You answered the 2 0 question. 2 1 A . Okay. 22 MR. TALLON: In what way did it go 2 3 to pot? What happened? 24 A. Depression. The first post-war 2 5 depression, the money disappeared. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI ia STLCOPCB4026330 I 1 Q . Are you currently a member of any 2. tech n i c a 1 or chem ical soci e t y ? 3 A. American Chemical Society, 4 c o in m only known as ACS. National Saf e t y 5 Coun cil. American Industrial Hygien e 6 A S S O ciation. And the American Indus trial 7 Hygi ene Academy. 8 Q. Have you been in the past a member 9 of a ny other professional, technical o r 1 0 chem ical society which you are not 1 1 c u r r ently affiliated with? 1 2 A. I really don't remember. P o s s i b 1 y 1 3 repr esenting Monsanto, but other tha n that, ]4 I do n't remember. There are so many 1 5 s c i e ntific groups that you are membe r s of 1 6 temp orarily and so forth. Like the 1 7 Auer ican Petroleum Institute, for ex ample. 1 8 And depending on what I was asked to do and 1 9 what it entailed, I was members of c e r t a i n 2 0 ones 2 1 Q. Were you ever Monsanto's 2 2 representative to the American Petroleum 2 3 Institute? . 2. 4 A. Yes, in a substituted -- in a 2 5 committee application. I was a Monsanto |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 1Q STLCOPCB4026331 1 representative on a subcommittee of the 2 medical committee of the American Petroleum 3 Institute. 4 Q. When did you serve on that 5 subcommittee? 6 A. Oh, back in the '60's, early 7 ' 7 0 ' s , perhaps. 8 Q. Do you recollect being Monsanto's 9 representative to any other professional, 1 0 technical, chemical society or the like? 1 1 A. I was a member of dozens of formal 1 2 organizational committees like those for 1 3 the Chemical Manufacturing Association, the 1 4 Ohio River Valley Water Sanitation . 1 5 commission, the API, the American Petroleum 1 8 Institute. Oh, Lord. Oh, for three years 1 7 I was a member of the National Drinking 1 8 Water Council appointed by the secretary of 1 9 Health, Education and Welfare, twice, 2 0 reappointed once. rK * 2 1 Q. Anything else that you recall 2 2 today? 2 3 A. No. But there are others I just 2 4 simply don't recall. 2 3 Q. Okay. Have you ever acted as an |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 7n STLCOPCB4026332 1 officer of the American Chemical Society'? ?. A . N o . 3 Q Have you ev er participated i n 4 drafting any reports issued by the A m e r 5 Chemical Society? 6 A . I'm trying to remember back a s 7 student. No. 8 Q. Have you ever served as an officer 9 of the National Safety Council? 1 0 A . No. 3 3 Q. Have you ever participated in 1 2 drafting any reports or publications issued 1 3 by that council? 1 4 A. I was on a committee that studied 1 5 some of the documents at one point in time. 3. 6 Q. What committee was that, sir? 1 7 A. It was a publication committee 1 8 that studied publications, the Safety 1 9 Council's publications for accuracy and ' 2 0 clarity. 2 3 Q. I take it from your description 2 2 that that committee was, in essence, an 2 3 editorial board or quality check board? 2 4 A . Yes. And it was set up by one of 2 5 the peopl e to make sure they did n't step on |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | O1 I STLCOPCB4026333 1 anyone's toes, like the medical side. 2 Industrial hygiene and safety are 3 different, but they're the same, and to 4 make sure that this was clear we had a -- 5 for a time a publicity -- publication 6 thing that looked at some of their 7 documents to make sure they weren't 8 stepping on unnecessary toes. 9 Q. Did you ever serve as an officer 1 0 oi the American Industrial Hygiene 1 1 Association? 1 2 A. Yes. 1 3 Q . And what office did you hold or 1 4 offices did you hold? 1 F> A. I was national chairman of 16 personnel. It was chairman of -- of 1 7 expanding the damn thing, getting new 1 8 members. 19 MR. PREUSS: Membership? 20 A. Membership. Thank you. I was 2 1 membership chairman for the national 2 2 organization. For the local organization 2 3 I've been every officer. 24 MR. TALLON: Local meaning -- 25 A. The St. Louis section of the . GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI ?o STLCOPCB4026334 1 A m e r i c an Industrial Hygiene Association. 2 Q . Did you ever participate in the 3 drafti ng of any publication issued by the 4 Americ an Industrial Hygiene Association? 5 A . Goodness, yes. Many. 6 Q . To the best of your recollection, 7 did an y of the publications in which you a p a r t i c ipated in drafting touch on or 9 c onc ern PCBs ? 1 0 A . Yes. 1 1 Q . As you sit here today, do you 1 2 recoil ect the names of any of those 1 3 public a t i o n s ? 1 4 A . The first i n dustrial hygiene guide 1 5 publ is h e d on P C B s b y the A I H A itself was 1 6 author ed by myself and Elmer P. Wheeler. 1 7 Q . And to the best of your 1 8 recoil ection, when was that publication 1 9 p u b 1 i s h ed ? 2 n A . Probably in the late 1 5 0 ' s . 2 1 Q Do you have available to y o 2 2 home a copy of that publication? 2 3 A. No. It has been upgraded several 2. 4 times that I did not participate in. 2 5 Q . You mentioned written by you and GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI STLCOPCB4026335 1 Mr. Elmer Wheeler, can you identify Mr. 2 Elmer Wheeler for the record? 3 A. Mr. Elmer Wheeler was assistant 4 medical director of Monsanto and was my 5 immediate superior for a number of years. 6 Now deceased. 7 Q. Other than the first industrial 8 guide published by the American Industrial 9 Hygiene Association with respect to PCBs, 1 0 were you a drafter or did you participate 1 1 in the drafting of any other publications 1 2 issued by that group that touched on or 1 3 related to PCBs? 1 4 A . No. 1 5 Q . Have you ever served as an officer 1 6 of the American Industrial Hygiene Academy? 1 7 A. No. I have not. 1 8 Q. Have you ever participated in the 1 9 drafting of any publication issued by the 2 0 American Industrial Hygiene Academy? 2 1 A. Nothing concerning -- it would 2 2 have been personnel related, nothing 2 3 concerning toxicology, or individual 2 4 materials or anything like that, no. They 2 5 don't publish that sort of stuff. |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI OA STLCOPCB4026336 1 Q. When you say personnel, you mean, 2 again, membership? 3 A . Membership, who's qualified, when 4 do you hold certification, certification 5 tests. That is the organization that 6 issues the CIH. You see it on my card, 7 Certified Industrial Hygiene, that 8 organization. 9 Q. And what is the designation CSP on 1 0 your card? 1 1 A. Certified safety professional. 1 2 Q. What orga n i z a t i o n certifies you as 1 3 a safety professio n a 1 ? 1 4 A. The organ i z a t i o n 1 3 Safety Professiona Is, b e 1 ieve it or not. 1 6 Q. And when did you receive 1 7 certification as a CSP? 1 8 A. The first time they held tests, I 1 9 took the first t e s t. Oh, CSP? No. That 2 0 was in the '70 ' s . Proba b 1 y mid ' 7 0 ' s . 2 1 Q . And i n y o r a n s w e r o f a moment ago 2 2 you may have b e e n e f e r r i n g t o the CIH 2 3 cert ification. w h e did you get that 2 4 cert ification? 2 b A. That was n the 1 a t e ' 6 0 ' s . As I GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI oc STLCOPCB4026337 he/d 1 said the first test they they 2 grandfathered everybody in but me, and I 3 had to take the test. 4 Q. Okay. You indicated that you 5 served on a subcommittee of the medical 6 committee of the American Petroleum 7 Institute. Am I correct that that was as a 8 representative of Monsanto Company? 9 A. That's right. 1 0 Q. And was the business of that 1 1 subcommittee in any way related to PCBs? 12 A. Tangentially at best. It was 1 3 related to the toxicity of materials 1 4 handled in the refining and transportation 1 5 of petroleum products in a very broad 1 6 sense, and to the best of my knowledge, we 1 7 never discussed -- to the best of my 1 8 recollection, we never discussed PCBs. It 1 9 was largely the direct toxicity of 2 0 individual materials. 2 1 Q. Was one of theindividual 2 2 materials discussed by that committee PCBs? 2 3 A. Not while I was on it, no. 2 4 Q. In what period did you serve on 2 5 that subcommittee? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI ?6 STLCOPCB4026338 1 A. It had to have been -- it would 2 be difficult to say. Sometime in the early 3 ' 7 0 ' s or late 1 6 0 1 s , that's when I went on 4 it. The committee kind of phased out. You 5 know, like many committees, it disappeared. 6 Q. Did that subcommittee issue any 7 reports, publications in which you 8 participated in the drafting? 9 A. No. That subcommittee was an ] 0 industrial hygiene group that was advisory 1 1 to the main members of the committee of the 1 2 medical committee of the API who were 1 3 primarily concerned with medical doctors. 1 4 And since they used most of their API time 1 5 to play golf, somebody had to do the 1 6 technical work, and that's exactly why that 1 7 committee was organized. I'm sorry, put it i a any way you want to, but that's the truth. 19 Q. That doesn't trouble me at all. 2 0 Now, let me just refer back for a moment to 2 1 your membership in all of these groups. 2 2 Did you need to, or did you seek approval 2 3 of your immediate superior or anyone in the 2 4 chain of command at Monsanto in order to 2 5 participate in these groups? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 77 STLCOPCB4026339 i 1 A. In many respects -- let's put it 2 this way, in some respects it was my 3 doing. I pushed it. In other respects 4 others pushed it. I got put on many of the 5 committees by the company, either my boss 6 or the director or someone over in staff, 7 over in the board. 8 Q. Were you encouraged by Monsanto to 9 be active in professional societies? 1 0 A. To be professionally active, yes, 1 1 encouraged, and the company paid the bills 1 2 for me and so forth. 1 3 Q . With respect to the publication by 1 4 the American Industrial. Hygiene 1 5 Association, the first industrial guide to 1 6 industrial, safety relating to PCBs, you 1 7 indicated that that first guide was later 1 8 updated, is that correct? 1 9 A. A moment to discuss guides. 2 0 American industrial Hygiene Association 2 1 publishes guides, they're very brief 2 2 subjects to give people of foreman class or 2 3 junior management class, people in industry 2 4 a brief look at what he needed to do to 2 5 protect people in handling these products. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 70 STLCOPCB4026340 i 1 That's what it was for. And it was very 2 brief. They were generally one page. And 3 they were done that way purposely. And we 4 did a who], e mob of them. We, on our 5 products, to the degree that our products 6 came up from the committee that chose -- 7 and I had nothing to do with the committee 8 that chose the subjects, we just did the 9 writing and briefing. And it's difficult 1 0 to brief these things down to keep them on 1 1 one page. They were printed on a semi 1 2 cardboard that you could tack on a bulletin 1 3 board. They were called Industrial Hygiene 1 4 Guides . 1 5 Q. So, to your recollection, what was 1 6 the length of the first industrial guide 1 7 that you and Mr. Wheeler worked on? 1 8 A. Half a page. 1 9 Q. And did you participate at all in r-f ' 2 0 determining its distribution by the 2 1 American industrial hygiene association? 2 2 A . No. 2 3 MR. PREUSS: . You mean the guide as 2 4 opposed to the half page? 2 5 A . The guide itself? |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI I OQ I STLCOPCB4026341 1 MR . T__A__L__L__O_ N Yes Well , strike 2 i licit . Let me just be clear. Are you 3 drawing a distinction between the guide and 4 half page? 5 A . The g u ide was the half 6 Q Okay. Was there anyth / A . No . 8 Q Okay. 9 A . And it was limited to 1 0 Q Right . Now, did you h ] 1 to do with the distribution of that one 1 2 page guide? ] 3 A . No. 1 4 Q D o you have any know led g e 1 5 d i s t r i b u t i o n by the American Indus ] 6 Hyg i e n e Ass o c i a t ion? 1 7 A . I t was available to all m 1 8 the in d u strial hygiene assoc i a t i o n from the 1 9 offices in Akron, Ohio., I t was pu b 1 i s h e d 2 0 i ti their journal, that you s e n t i n so many 2 1 dollars for certain of them and t h ey 2 2 published the list of the ones they had. 2 3 At one point in time you could buy the 2 4 whole set if you wished. It began to 2 5 disappear. The AIHA, in essence, over the GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI ^n STLCOPCB4026342 i 1 years backed out of it because it was a 2 difficult task and a very controversial one 3 t o try to jam into one page - - can you 4 i m ri rj i ; ' n g this for benzene, tolu e n e r 5 t h i n g s like that? I t would be diffi r u 1 t . 6 A n d i 1 was difficul t . And I helped o n some 7 of those, too. 8 Q. Why difficult? 9 A . Because of the p r o b 1. o m u li . t: f I'd 1 0 W i 1 li r It 1 , , I , i . If ' , < , 1 gy that you could not 1 1 really cover in one page . Y o tl ' re .jtii' a d y 1 2 p Li l l i 1 1 CJ i.' it Mt v i v. the n a m e , a 1 1 t h e other 1 3 names, the symbols. its chcjii c a 1 s !. i nr 1 ure 1 4 and any of the s-t ruct tt-r a-4- methods, all of 1 5 its physical and chemical properties. 1 6 You're si. ill stuck to one page, so your 1 7 toxicology industrial hygiene paragraph is 1 8 abou< if),'1 big. So it became cumbersome to 1 9 do this with materials of a very far 2 0 rear hing toxicology. 2 1 Q. I take it from your response t h 2 2 t. h e r e was insufficient space on the one 2 3 page to fully describe the i mportant or 2 4 s a i i ent points? 2b MR. PREUSS: Well, I'm going to |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI . 31 STLCOPCB4026343 I 1 object ; over- broad, non-specific . 2 MR . TALL0N : You can answer, 3 A . It r e a 1 1 y was an evolutionary 4 p / u r t - s . In safety and health the amount 5 of mat e r i a .1 n e e d e d has grown through the 6 y e ci t and t h i s -- they outgrew the need 7 for t h e i n d u s trial hygiene guides, because 8 o l. her o r g a n i z a t i o n s were publishing formal 9 d o c u m e n t s or little booklets on them. The ] 0 API p U b 1 i s h e d them, the MCA published 1 1 them, I part i c i p a t ed in writing a great 1 2 in a n y o f them, just participated with a 1 3 group, a c 1 u s ter of people that handled 1 4 these materia Is t h a t knew something about 1 5 them, And t h e API had a whole mob of them, 1 6 and t h e C h e m i cal M a nufacturers Association 1 7 did, 1 ikewise . Non e of them do it any 1 8 m ci r e . It's t o o com plex to be able to snub 1 9 this s tuff do w n i n t o small enough form to 2 0 make i t avail able a nd understandable to 2 1 f o r e m a n class p e o p 1 e. Okay? I'm not 2 2 trying to be class conscious. I'm telling 2 3 you t h at the a v e r a g e foreman couldn't 2 4 unders t a n d , w hen y o u start getting out into 2 5 e x t r a n e o u s to x i c o 1 o gy issues. So, to keep GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI STLCOPCB4026344 1 from I was participating when they 2 d i s rt p p e a i' e d , one set s t o p p e d , the A C A s 3 stopped. It go t t o the point where you 4 couldn't do i t in a dec ent short enough 5 length to justify that type of 6 publication. If you're going to make a 20 7 page document, it doesn't fit a pamphlet 8 t ui m . T mean, -s-o- they jus t -f e-a-~trh e r-o-4- out. 9 and the y did -- all of the make r s of those Qi/s Ve5 1 0 dr-it--i t-rg-P r tnrt.'h ~e~mr8 STTir. I n other words , the 1 1 industrial hygiene guides, the MCA safety ] 2 u li ( i l s , the API's data sheet just 1 3 ppeared for lack of need for that kind 1 4 11 1 o r in a t i o n a n y more. 1 5 Q . In conn ection with that first 1 6 i Ti (i u t i i a 1 g u i de that you and M r . Wheeler 1 7 worked o n , was that replaced by a nother one 1 R page gu i d e a t a later date or did it simply 1 9 phaseoutofexistence? 2 0 A. I really don't know. * 2 1 Q. Okay. Now, I've asked you 2 2 questions about whether you participated in 2 3 drafting publications- for any of the five 2 4 organisations that we touched on thus far. 2 5 Did you review publications proposed to be jGORK REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI rt STLCOPCB4026345 1 published by any of the five organizations 2 that we've discussed, including the 3 American Chemical Society, the National 4 Safety Council, the American Industrial 5 Hygiene Association, the American 6 Industrial Hygiene Academy, or the American 7 Petroleum Institute where the subject of 8 that publication was PCBs? 9 MR. PREUSS: Let me clarify. Are 2 0 you talking about reviewed in an editorial 1 1 sense or just glanced at them or read 1 2 t hem? 2. 3 MR. TALLON: I'm talking about 1 4 reviewed in an editorial sense. 1 S A . PCBs, no. 1 6 Q. Now, you testified a moment ago 1 7 that you participated in drafting 1 8 publications for other organizations. Did 1 9 you participate in draftingpublications 2 0 for the Chemical Manufacturers Association? 2 2 A . Yes. 2 2 Q . Did any of the publications in 2 3 which you participated in drafting touch on 2 4 o i co n cv r n PCBs? 2 5 A . No. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI STLCOPCB4026346 I 1 Q. Did you participate in preparing 2 publications, that is to say, drafting 3 publications for the National Drinking 4 Wcil't Council where the topic or subject of 5 that publication was PCBs? 6 A . Nr, . '."lie National Drinking Water 7 Council was an advisory council to the 8 diTt-rloi u f the agency itself, and to the 9 Congress. 1 0 Q . Which agency are you referring 1 1 to? OSHA? 1 ?. A. No. The pollution agency. Damn 1 3 it, what the hell -- 1 4 Q . T h e F: P A ? . 1 5 A . Yo? , KPA . 1 6 Q. When were you appointed to the 1 7 National Drinking Water Council for the 1 8 f i i s i lime? 19 A. Oh, gosh. '71, '12. And I served 2 0 for one year. I was one of the originals 2 1 and T had the one year term and they 2 2 reappointed me for three additional years. 2 3 Q. By whom were you appointed? 2 4 A. The secretary of EPA, the 2 8 director, who was the assistant secretary GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI STLCOPCB4026347 1 of then Health, Education and Welfar e . 2 Q. At any time during your ser vice on 3 the National Drinking Water Council did the 4 business of that council touch on or 5 concern PCBs? 6 A. Only in an ancillary sense, if at 7 all. I don't recall any direct disc u s s i <> n s 8 concerning PCBs. 9 Q. Do you have an understandin g as to 1 0 how you were selected for nomination t o 1 1 that, council? 1 2 A. Two of the organizations I was 1 3 members of put my name on there. Th e ] 4 secretary, assistant secretary, dire c t o r 1 5 picked me out of the list. 1 6 Q. Just let me do one cleanup 1 7 question. Mr. Garrett, do you have any 1 8 recollection of participating in the 1 9 drafting of any publication by any 'r ` 2 0 organization where that publication touched 2 1 on or related to PCBs? 22 MR. PREUSS: Other than the 2 3 Industrial Hygiene Society? 24 MR. TALLON : Other than wha t we 2 5 have discussed thus far. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI oc STLCOPCB4026348 1 A. I've worked with groups that did 2 documentation for agencies that did -- the 3 agency itself may have published on PCBs. 4 T did not participate in it, except for 5 one. 6 Q. When you say you worked with 7 groups, which groups are you referring to? 8 A. We've been discussing it. The MCA 9 then, n o w C M A - - I don ' t k n o w why they J 0 7 (' v (' f l; e d i t , MCA ha d s u c h a r o t t e n 1 1 r e p u t a t i o n , I guess -- pu b 1 i s h e d all of 1 2 these MCA guides and we helped in that. 1 3 Also helped publish, write things that went ] 4 from the MCA in their efforts to discuss 1 5 with Congress. These are all lobbying 1 6 operations, you know this. And in the 1 7 technical groups , i-n-e 1 u d i-n-g--t h-e-- ----1 8 including the A-I-S , the academy, the safety 1 9 council, I've worked on publications for * 2 0 them that are purely a technical base for 2 1 -- that would not necessarily be for 2 2 lobbying or anything else, it would be for 2 3 publications they published one place or 2 4 another for the help of safety and health 2 5 professionals. And the book on management GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI STLCOPCB4026349 1 the same way, it was published at the 2 request of a number of people from the AIHA 3 that needed to be done and we did it. 4 Q . Just referring to the Chemical 5 Manufacturers Association for just a 6 moment, I take it that that organization 7 from time to time discussed pending 8 legislation with representatives of the 9 Congress? ]0 MR. PREUSS: Are you asking does 1 1 he have personal knowledge of that? 1 2. MR. TALLON: I'm asking. 1 3 A. Yes, I do. 1 4 Q. And, in fact, in your answer of a 1 5 moment ago I think you referred to it as 1 6 lobbying, correct? 1 7 A . Yes. 1 8 Q. Did you ever directly participate 1 9 in any lobbying activities in connection /a 1 2 0 with the Chemical Manufacturers 2 1 Association? 2 2 A. With agency people, not with 2 3 elected officials. So it's kind of 2 4 secondary lobbying, if you know what I 2 5 mean. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI -v rv STLCOPCB4026350 1 Q When you refer to agency people 2 are you referring to representatives of the 3 Environmental Protection Agency? 4 A. API -- I mean, EPA, OSHA, NIOSH. 5 Oddly enough, I did participate with the 6 pollution, national pollution organization 7 in direct lobbying with some people for 8 some pollution laws. 9 Q. Did any of your direct experience 1 0 in discussing legislation or proposed 1 1 regulations with the EPA touch on or 1 2 concern PCBs? 1 3 A. Not in a direct sense. 1 4 Q . Did it do so in an indirect sense? 15 A. Pollution, water pollutants. What 1 6 is a water pollutant. It means anything 1 7 that could get in the water. 1 8 Q . And did you discuss those lobbying 1 9 efforts with any of your colleagues at 2 0 Monsanto? 21 A e s , if they wished t o know. And 2 2 those n e e d e d to know I d i s cussed i t 2 3 with. 2 4 Q Just t o be cl ear, was the effort 2 5 that you were e n gaged in an e f f o r t i n GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI -\ o STLCOPCB4026351 1 concert with the Chemical Manu facturers 2 Association? 3 M R . PREUSS: I object to the form 4 of the quest ion. as to what yo u mean by i n 5 concert. 6 A . It was a subcommittee of a 7 committee of that organization that did the 8 work and presented the technical data 9 obtained. 1 0 MR. TALLON: What was the 1 1 subcommittee? 1 2 A. It would have been an ad hoc 1 3 subcommittee, many times appointed from the 1 4 major committee, which is the chemical 1 5 advisory committee to that organization. 1 6 Q. What was the purpose for which you 1 7 were so engaged in discussions with the 1 8 EPA? 1 9 A . F r o m the day I join ed Monsanto's 2 0 health d e p a r t m e n t t o today. these 2 1 or g a ni z a t i o n s that b u i 1 t the technical 2 2 backing for all the pollution laws and 2 3 health related laws, largely, that are on 2 4 the books in any agency of the Federal 2 S Government, because when we started there GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI STLCOPCB4026352 1 were virtually no legislation connected 2 with specifics. 3 MR. FREUSS: You've answered the 4 question, sir. 5 MR. TALLON: I think you may have 6 interrupted him. May I have the answer 7 hark 7 8 (The requested portion of the 9 record read by the reporter). ] 0 MR. TALLON: Let me just be clear. 1 1 Mr. G a r r e 11 . W h a t w a 1 2 e f f o r t ? What w e r e y o 1 3 A . You may not 1 4 was attempting to write decent -- get the 1 5 background for decent pollution laws and 1 6 decent health related laws in this 1 7 country. All people in my business in 1 8 every company, regardless of what they 1 9 made, were trying to do the same thing. r^ * 2 0 Q. And for the record, what do you 2 1 mean when you use the word decent in that 2 2 context? 2 3 A. When I got in the Water Pollution 2 4 Control Federation, the federal pollution 2 5 law said it was against the law to pollute. IGORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI A1 STLCOPCB4026353 1 and that's all. 2 Q. And-- . 3 A. And in the next 50 years we have 4 been defining pollute. And the direction 5 some of these things were taking was 6 alarming in the sense that well, we're not 7 going to have any chemicals put in the 8 rivers. You know, I mean, let's be 9 perfectly frank with ourselves, the average 1 0 American Congressman, distressingly so, is 1 1 probably an attorney that has very little 1 2 technical backing and information 1 3 concerning pollution control, pollution 1 4 treatment, chemicals or anything else, so 1 5 it was our job, and encouraged by these 1 6 organizations, to try to get this job done 1 7 with some responsibility. 1 8 Q. Did you ever personally 1 9 participate in discussions with K' 2 0 representatives of a government agency 2 1 where the subject of the discussions was 2 2 PCBs ? . 2 3 A. Specifically, I don't recall. 2 4 Q. Were you ever part of a working 2 e. group or organization that was dealing |G 0 R E REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI STLCOPCB4026354 1 directly with a federal or state agency 2 where the specific topic to be discussed 3 was PCBs? 4 A . No. 5 Q. Were you ever part of a group that 6 discussed the issue of PCBs with federal 7 legislators. Senators or Congressmen? 8 A. I don't recall. I really don't 9 recall . 1 0 Q M r . Garrett, you indicated that 1 1 you r e c e i v e d your Master's Degree in 1 9 4 9 ? 1 2 A . Yes. 1 3 Q Did you, after receiving yo u r 1 4 Mas ter' s Degree, begin work in your present 1 5 field? 1 6 A . No. 1 7 Q. What did you do after you received 1 8 your Master's Degree for employment? 1 9 A. I became a chemist. Which I was a 2 0 chemist, an inorganic physical chemist 2 1 looking for a job, had a wife and two kids, 2 2 all of which were hungry after four years 2 3 of college, I went on- the G.I. Bill, and I 2 4 walked to the gate at Monsanto's plant in 2 h Texas City, Texas and they hired me as a (GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI STLCOPCB4026355 1 research chemist 2 Q. What year was that? 3 A. 1950. January 12, 1950, my 4 birthday . 5 Q. Starting with your position as a 6 chemist in Texas City, Texas, could you 7 please take me through your employment with 8 Monsanto from January 12, 1950 until you 9 to tired? And when I say take me through, I 1 0 mean could you please tell me what 1 1 positions you held and for what periods of 1 2 time you held them, as best you can? 1 3 A . Roughly . I was a researc 14 mist , and that was my title. A 1 5 nk I was Resea r c h Che mist 3 by 1 6 ary schedules , that's all I k n o 1 7 si r ci n g c -ihout things, how they've evolved. 1 8 More people are interested in their salary 1 9 levels and so forth today than we were in f:K ' 2 0 those days after the war. All we needed 2 1 was a job. I think a lot of people are in 2 2 the same boat today. And as you can easily 2 3 imagine, my field was radiation chemistry, 2 4 and I was going into a laboratory that's 2 b field was polymeric monomers, an organic GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI AA STLCOPCB4026356 s 1 chemistry field. So I, to a certain 2 degree, represented an odd sort of 3 individual in this lab. So I inherited all 4 the odd jobs . And one of them had to do 5 with determi ning what trea t m e n t we would 6 apply to an acrylonitrile process that w a 7 planned for the Texas City plant. the old 8 Texas division of Monsanto's plant. And I 9 did -- I got mixed up in how do you do ] 0 this. I went to the state. 11 MR. PREUSS: Mr. Garrett, I think 1 2 fie wants to know how long you were research 1 3 chemist, from what year to what year, what 1 4 you did, your job position from what year 1 5 to what year. 1 6 A. I got pretty proficient in 1 7 pollution, and the medical department in 1 8 St. Louis found it out, and when they were 1 9 ordered to take over this job of keeping 2 0 the plants advised in connection with 2 1 pollution control, they came down to Texas 2 2 City and offered me a chance to make more 2 3 money, so I came to St. Louis as an. 2 4 industrial hygienist. I never had seen 2 5 that term before, I did not know what it ! |GORE REPORTING COMPANY . ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI STLCOPCB4026357 1 was. 2 Q. And what year did you go to S t . 3 Louis as an industrial hygienist? 4 A . '54. 5 MR. PREUSS: Do you want to take 6 it on up? 7 MR. TALLON: Yes, please. 8 A. I became manager in about ' 5 8 of 9 water pollution control in that sect ion, 1 0 and then manager of industrial hygie n e and ] 1 water pollution control, and then ma n a g e r 1 2 of industrial hygiene, then director o f 1 3 industrial hygiene. These are grade level 1 4 changes, as you can imagine. 1 3 Q. Can you relate when you bee a m e the 1 6 manager of industrial hygiene and wa ter ] 7 pollution control? 1 8 A. What time, you mean what da t e ? 19 Q. Yes. What year? ' ` 20 A. Oh, gosh. '62, I think, so m e t h i n g 2 1 like that. 2 2 Q. Do you remember the year in which 2 3 you became the manager of industrial 2 4 hygiene? 2. 5 A. I really don't. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI STLCOPCB4026358 1 Q . Do you remember the year in which 2 you b e c a me the di rector of industrial 3 hygi ene? A A . That was probably '80. 5 Q Was dire c t o r of i ndustrial hygiene 6 the last position you held at Monsanto? 7 A . Yes. 8 Q And what year did you retire from 9 a c t i ve duty at Monsanto? 1 0 A . November 1985. 1 1 Q. And since 1985 have you been a 1 2 r n I) S ultant in private practice? 1 3 A . Yes. 1 4 Q. Since 1985 has any of the 1 5 cons ulting work that you have done been for 1 6 Mens a n t o ? 1 7 A . Yes. 1 8 Q. Are you currently working for 1 9 M o n s anto as a consultant? 'I ' 2 0 A. Yes, I presume so. 2 1 Q . And I take it that if you act as 2 2 cons ultant for M o n s anto, Mon santo pays you 2 3 some salary or fee based on your hours? 2 4 A. Yes. 2 8 Q. Can you estimate, or better yet. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI *n STLCOPCB4026359 1 tell m e how many projects you've worked on 2 for Monsanto since leaving Monsanto, 3 r e t i ring from Monsanto in 1985? 4 A. Six or seven. 5 Q And do you plan t o b e able to 6 cons u 1 t for M o n s a n t o in the f u ture, if that 7 is p ossible? 8 A. Consult with anybody who wants me. 9 yes. ] 0 Q When you first w e n t t o S t 1 1 in 1 9 5 4 from Texas City, T e x a s , w h 1 2. d e p a rtment were you in, if that is the 1 3 c o r r ect terminology? 1 4 A. Medical. 1 5 Q . To whom did you report in 1954? 1 6 A. To Elmer P. Wheeler. 1 7 Q. What was his title? 1 R A. Assistant director. 1 9 Q. Assistant director,medical? 2 0 A. Assistant director of the medical 2 1 d e p a rtment. He was not assistant medical 2 2 dire ctor, no. Assistant director of the 2 3 m e d i cal department. 2 4 Q. And at that time who was the 2 5 dire ctor of the medical department? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI STLCOPCB4026360 1 A. Dr. R.E. Kelly. 2 Q. Did you have anyone reporting to 3 you when you came to St. Louis? 4 A . No. 5 Q. When you became the manager of 6 water pollution control in approximately 7 1958, what department did you work with or 8 for? 9 A. Medical department. 1 0 Q. Was your position always within ] 1 the medical department through your , 1 2 retirement? 1 3 A. Through the medical department and 1 4 its subsequent names. But the same thing, 1 5 same idea, same place, really. 1 6 Q. And did the name of the medical 1 7 department change from 1954 to 1985? 1 8 A . Yes. 1 9 Q. What was it called at various 2 0 points? 2 1 A. When I left it was called the 2 2 department of medicine and environmental 2 3 health. 2 4 Q. In 1954 did Mr. Wheeler have 2 5 others reporting to him as assistant GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI STLCOPCB4026361 1 director of the medical department? 2 A . No . 3 Q. You were his only report? 4 A. I was his. 3 Q. Okay. And did Mr. Wheeler report 6 to Mr. Kelly? 7 A . Yes. 8 Q. Did Dr. Kelly have other reports 9 atthat time, so far as you recall? 1 Cl A. Yes. He had a half time physician 1 1 and a medical technician and, of course, we ] 2 had two secretaries . 13 Q. Were the offices of your -- was 1 4 your office and the office of Mr. Wheeler 1 5 and the office of Dr. Kelly in the same 1 6 general area? 1 7 A . Yes. ] 8 Q. And what building or office 1 9 address was that? 2 0 A. The office building downtown at 2 1 the Queeny plant. There is an eight story 2 2 building there that Monsanto had as its 2 3 original company office. 24 Q . nid the location of your offices 2 5 change between 1954 and 1985? GORK REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI STLCOPCB4026362 1 A. We moved from there to the new 2 of f i re Nt/ ucture in St. Louis County. 3 Q. When was that? 4 A . in A Buildingof that new 5 structure, which was a multitude of 6 buildings. That was in 1957. No. Yes, it 7 was 1957, that's right. 8 Q. And was your office in that same 9 location in St. Louis County for the 1 0 balance of your career at Monsanto? 11 A. No. We moved -- they separated 12 - they separated the department and moved 1 3 most of the people toanother building 1 4 temporarily and then they moved them back. 1 5 After I left they moved it back. 1 6 Q. How was the department separated? 17 A. The director and -- who was a ] 8 physician. stayed in one area. I t was a 1 9 matter of just because o f room and space 2 0 problems. And it's back t o g e t h e r where 2 1 belongs now. 2 2 Q . The director was in one area and 2 3 staff was in another? 2 4 A. Yes. 2 S Q. Was your office near the office of jGORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI C1 STLCOPCB4026363 1 the director during that time? 2 A . No, it was in the other place. In 3 other words, they moved us over to another 4 building. E> Q . During the time period when the 6 department was separated, was the director 7 a J one and all of the staff elsewhere? 8 A. To a degree. And then he moved 9 over with us and then the whole thing moved 1 0 back after I retired. ] 1 Q . I take it from your description 1 2 that between 1954 and 1985 the medical 1 3 department grew in terms of the number of 1 4 people assigned to it? 1 E. A. Oh, my, yes. 1 6 Q . When you became manager of water 1 7 pollution control in 1958, to whom did you 1 8 report? 1 9 A. Elmer Wheeler. ' 2 0 Q. And to whom did Mr. Wheeler 2 ] report, 5 f you recall? 2 2 A. Dr. Kelly. 2 3 Q. When you became manager of water 2 4 pollution control in 1958, did Mr. Wheeler 2 b have oilier reports to him? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 52 STLCOPCB4026364 1 A. Yes. He had a toxicology man. 2 Q. J'm sorry? 3 A. He had a toxicologist i <]_><> i t. Lo 4 I . W h o was that? 6 A . A d e c e a s e d gentleman named Hunt. 7 n r . I: I i ( . ! './.I ' ' ! i nm Hunt. 8 Q . And do you recall when Dr. Hunt 9 b e (j ci n work a u toxicologist reporting to 1 0 Mr. Hh e e 1 e r ? 1 1 A . T h a t had to have been sometime in 1 2 the la t e '60 's, I would say. Mid to late 1 3 '60's. 1 4 Q . I think the question arose, what 1 5 report s did Mr. Wheeler have in 1958 when 1 6 you be came director of water pollution 1 7 c o n t r o 1. And just to clarify, was Dr. Hunt 1 8 workin g for -- or, rather, reporting to 1 9 Mr. W h eeler in 1958 or did he not arrive 2 0 until the late '60' s ? 2 1 A . I can't remember what time it 2 2 was. Whether he was there at that time, I 2 3 don't remember. But I reported to him and 2 4 I had one man reporting to me. 2 5 Q . And who was reporting.to you? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 53 STLCOPCB4026365 1 A . A p 0 1 1 u tion engi n e e r . 2 Q w h o was that? 3 A . B r u c e W . Eley. 4 Q I s that E - 1 - y ? 5 A . I think E - 1 - e - y , I t h i n k . 6 Q I s M r . Eley stil 1 1 i v i n g ? 7 A . Yes. 8 Q. Is he still employed by Monsanto? 9 A. To the best of my knowledge. 1 0 Q. When did Mr. Eley start working at 1 1 Monsanto for you, as best you recall? 12 A. Not exactly, no. 1 3 Q. When you became the manager of 1 4 industrial hygiene and water pollution 1 5 control in approximately 1962, to whom did 1 6 you report? 1 7 A. Elmer Wheeler, still. 1 8 Q. And did Mr. Wheeler then still 1 9 report to Dr. Kelly? 2 0 A . Yes . ^' ' 2 1 Q At that t i m e d i d M r . Wheel e r have 2 2 any other reports t h a t Y o u r e call? 2 3 A . Toxicolog i s t a n d m y s elf. 2 4 Q And when Y o u b e came the d i rector 2 5 excuse me, the manager of industrial GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI d STLCOPCB4026366 1 hygiene and water pollution control, did 2 you have anyone reporting to you? 3 A. Later on, yes. 4 Q . Who? ' 5 A. I had -- it would be better when 6 I became director. I had -- at that time 7 we hired some new ones. We had four 8 industrial hygienists and an assistant, who 9 was Mr. Eley. ] 0 Q. Are you referring to the time in 1 1 1980 when you became the director of 1 2 i ndustrial hygiene? 1 3 A. No. During the period between ] 4 that time and the time I was manager of 1 5 industrial hygiene the staff grew to four ] 6 hygienists and an assistant, which was Mr. 1 7 Eley, and three chemists in an industrial 1 8 hygiene laboratory. 1 9 Q. And did the four industrial 2 0 hygienists and the three chemists report to 2 1 you? 2 2 A. Yes. 23 Q. Do you remember the names of the 2 4 industrial hygienists? 23 A. Not - - I can tell you some ot l iiI i I (CORE REPORTING COMPANY '. ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 33 STLCOPCB4026367 1 them, that's all. 2 Q . Can you please tell me those that 3 you recall? 4 A . /in),,. haw, who is currently 5 opera ting t h a t s e c t .i o n . A t tho a mo f i mn I 6 i n li c i i t f - i i 1 h e. health r e c ords sect ion, w hi c h 7 c o n t a i n e d -- which was the c o m p u ter 8 o p <: i ' 1 i oil for health r e c ords , and I had a 9 manager managing each o f t h-o-s-e two v /rx- o f 1 0 ection, the hygiene i;-e-c-t-i-o-n- and the 11 e chemistry g. Q &-B-. Currently that 1 2 so, that is not the arrangement, and t 1 3 tly I don't know the arrangement. 1 4 have to ask somebody else. 1 5 Q. Who was the manager of the 1 6 chemists section? 1 7 A. Bob Peck, P-e-c-k. 1 8 Q. And do you remember during what 1 9 time period Mr. Peck served as manager of 2 0 that section? 2 1 A. He was there when I left, so I 2 2 don't know since then. 2 3 Q. But do you remember when he came 2 4 on board? 2b A. No, no! directly. I don't -- I GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI c; c STLCOPCB4026368 I 1 don't remember. We brought him in fi o m 2 nay (tin, and I don't know when it was. 3 Q. And do you remember when Mr. 4 Hinshaw began work at Monsanto? 5 A . T o be perfectly honest. n o , I 6 don't I c a n't remember exactly . P r o b a b 1 y 7 late i n '70, but I can't tell you any 8 better than that. 9 Q. Did the organization of your group 1 0 change at all from the time you becam e 1 1 manager of industrial hygiene through your 1 2 retirement as director of industrial 1 3 hygiene? 3 4 A. Became a little larger. We got 1 5 another chemist and a couple of additional 1 6 industrial hygienists, and I was spending a 1 7 lot of time with the health records group. 1 8 Q. Did you continue to report to Mr. 1 9 Wheeler until the time you retired? 2 0 A . U n til t h e t me he retired, yes. 2 1 G ., Wh e n was t h t ? 2 2 A .. 0 h , g o s h 2, .'3, '4, something 2 3 1 i k e that. E a r 1 y t o mid ' 7 0 ' s , that's the 2 4 b e s t I can d o . Y o u ' have to ask his wife. 2 5 I guess. |GORt; REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | c; 7 STLCOPCB4026369 1 Q. And to whom did you report after 2 Mr. Wheeler retired? 3 A . The medical dir e c t o r . 4 Q Directly to the medical director? 5 A . Directly to the medical director. 6 Q. Who was that? 7 A. That was Dr. George Roush. 8 R-o-u-s-h, I believe is the way he spells 9 it. 1 0 Q. Did Dr. Roush replace Dr. Kelly as 1 1 medical director? 1 2 A . Yes. 1 3 Q. And do you recollect when Dr. 1 4 Kelly retired? 1 5 A . I hate t o say the late '70'' s , but 1 6 I'm going to do i t again, because I don ' t 1 7 know. No, I don ' t know. 1 8 Q. Have you seen Dr. Kelly since his 1 9 retirement or yours? 2 0 A. Many times. 2] Q. When was the last time you saw 2 2 him? 2 3 A. A funeral about three or four 2 4 months ago. 2 5 Q . Other than Mr. Wheeler, did you GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI KQ STLCOPCB4026370 i 1 ever h a ve any repor obligation to 2 a n y o n e else? 3 A . Yes. 4 Q To whom? 5 A . Mr. Tom E v 6 Q And what w . Evans ' position 7 during the period you re ported to him? 8 A . During the peri od that we reported 9 that Dr. Roush headed th e thing, the 1 0 c < i in p a n y interjected an a dditional 1 1 management layer, and Mr . Evans turned out ] 2 1 o be my boss. 1 3 Q . Approximate! y w hen did you begin 1 4 reporting to Mr. Evans? 1 3 A. Probably in the early ' 8 0 ' s or 1 6 late ' 7 0 ' s . Very late ' 7 0 ' s , probably '78, ] 7 79, '80, *81. ] 8 Q . In the 1 9 6 0's d i d you h a v e any 1 9 reporting obligations to a per son other 2 0 than Mr. Wheeler? K' 2 1 A. It was a very s m a 11 d e p a r t m e n t 2 2 and, yes, my official bo s s was M r . 2 3 Wheeler. The department h ad f our men in 2 4 it, all of which were la r g e 1 y d i f f e r e n t 2 5 technical people. It wa s kind o f operated GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST . L 0 U I S, MISSOURI c. Q STLCOPCB4026371 1 in a rather laissez-faire way. But as it 2 grew larger it had to have def ined lines of 3 communication, so forth, and w hen I finally 4 retired there were so many peo pie in the 5 medical system itself at Monsa n t o in 6 varying specialties that indus trial hygiene 7 andcomputer records setup was a different 8 organization, and we were so b ig that these 9 people probably didn't know th e people in 1 0 the toxicology section, for ex ample. We 1 1 went from a room to a floor in 30 years, 1 2 Q. In referring to the h ealth records 1 3 section, are you referring to health 1 4 7'cc-nfds of Monsanto workers or health 1 5 records of others or both? 1 6 A . Monsanto workers. 1 7 Q. Did you ever have any one working ] 8 ft>/ you who had as their princ i p a 1 1 9 responsibility addressing cone erns rcl./led 2 0 to P C B s ? 2 1 A . No. 2 2 Q. Was there ever during your service 2 3 with Monsanto a person in the medical 2 4 department whose principal res pons ibility 2 5 was to deal with health issues o r GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI cn STLCOPCB4026372 1 environmental issues relating to P C B s ? 2 A . No. 3 Q. During your service in the medical 4 department at Monsanto was there a person b who had as a portion of their 6 responsibility dealing with issues relating 7 to P C B s ? 8 A. The hygienist assigned to the 9 organic chemicals company back when it was 1 0 a division or company, yes. It was one of 1 1 his many jobs. 1 2 Q. Do you remember the name of the 1 3 hygienist assigned to the organic chemicals 1 4 division? ] b A. They were at one time or another 1 6 assigned to them. Wemoved them around. 1 7 They moved up, some of them left, we got 1 8 new ones and so forth. No, I don't. 1 9 Q. Did there come a time when, let's f^ ` 2 0 say, legislative attention focused on 2 1 PCBs ? 22 MR. PREUSS: I'm going to object 2 3 to the vagueness. 2 4 A. There was a time when legislative 2 5 attention focused on organic chemicals, and j (GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI f, 1 STLCOPCB4026373 1 I think that part of that was PCBs. 2 MR. TALLON: At or before that 3 time was it the responsibility of a n yo n e in 4 the -- of any particular individua 1 in the 5 medical group to deal with question s 6 relating to PCBs? 7 A. The hygienist assigned to the a organic division initially, and to the 9 chemical company ultimately. These are 1 0 organizational changes in Monsanto itself . 11 And the section that included the o r g a n i c ] 2 manufacturing that the hygienist wa s 1 3 assigned, and it varied depending o n who 1 4 was assigned to, the organic divisi 0 n . 1 5 Q. What was the formal name o f the 1 6 division or department that had 1 7 responsibility for organic chemical s during 1 8 the period that you worked for the medical 1 9 group? tr ' 2 0 A. Originally the organic div 1 s i o n . 2 1 Later a series of names which is cu r re n 11 y 2 2 the chemical -- the Monsanto Chemi cal 2 3 Company. . 2 4 Q . Was there a separate manag e me n t 2 5 structure for the organic division d ur i n g Iii GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS , MISSOURI f. 9 STLCOPCB4026374 I 1 the time that yo u served in th e medical 2 group? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q . And can you describe for me how 5 that division wa s managed? Wa s there a 6 president or vie e-president, s 0 forth? 7 A . There w as a Corporate 8 Vice-President w ho was in char ge of that 9 division. And I believe he wa s one of 1 0 four. 1 1. Q . One of four corporate 1 2 vice-presidents company-wide o r one of four 1 3 in charge of the organic divis ion? 1 4 A. Company -wide . 1 5 Q , And who was the Corpo rate 1 6 Vice-President i n charge of th e organic ] 7 division? 1 8 A . Oh, my stars, I have no idea, 1 9 there were so ma ny different o n e s . 2 0 Q . Do you remember any o f them? 21 A . Their n ames escape me . The only 2 2 thing Iknow is the current pr esident of 2 3 the whole damn m ess and chairm an of the 2 4 board of the mes s was at one t 1 m e the 2 5 vice-president o f the plastics division . |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI STLCOPCB4026375 Q 1 Are y o u talk i n g about today? 2 A . Today . Was a t 3 those V i c e-pre side n t s 4 where the y w e r e bo a r d m e I5 when f i r s t c a m e t o Mon 6 vice- P r e s i d e n t s we r e boa 7 are n o t n o w . .8 Q When you say b o 9 mean m e m b e r s o f t h e b oar the.' p t 71 0 it ! i'ii (.-ft m p a n y 1 1 A . That' s r i g h t " ; : ' | ' ] 2. 1 It o 1. i c c tor s . Q , you1 3 Okay. Now ] 4 t. h r on `j h 1 h e p o ; :i L i o n s y o 1 d1 5 s e r v i c e i n the m e d i c a y1 6 x hrou g h our r e t i r e m e n t . e1 7 tell m e w hat y our d u t i s 1 8 first c a m e to S t . Lou i s ?1 9 h y g i e n i s t in 1 9 5 4 2 0 A . To t a k e o v e r t h 2 1 plant s t h at re g u i r e d i t , iy2 2 p r i m a r i o r g a n i c pro due 2 3 conti n u e doing the w o r k 2 4 c o n t r o 1 f or t h e co r p o rat 2 5 don't kno w how you put i GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI STLCOPCB4026376 1 on pollution control 2 Q. What was the function of the town 3 crier on pollution control? 4 A. Trying to determine and bring to 5 the attention of the division people, their 6 staff, what they were looking at in 7 connection with treatment problems and 8 methods . 9 Q. Did you have responsibilities 1 0 other than plant visitation? 1 1 A. You know, with a small department, 1 2 I didn't do any physical exams, because I 1 3 wasn't a qualified physician, but I was 1 4 accused many times of having -- of having 1 5 Dr. Kelly take my license away from me. So 1 6 it was a small department at first, and I 1 7 answered Elmer's phone, he answered mine 1 8 and sometimes I even answered -- I even 1 9 1 y ' s phone . 2 0 ' v e indicated a couple of times 2 1 i c a 1 group was a small 22 hen you joined in 1954,. Was it 2 3 small enough that you had direct contact 2 4 with Dr. Kelly? 2 5 A. Sure. His office was next to mine IGORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI . rc STLCOPCB4026377 1 and Elmer's was on the o the r s i d e . 2 Q. And did th a t d i r e c t c 0 n tact 3 continue throughout t h e ' 6 0 ' s a n d ' 7 0 ' s 4 A. Throughout t h e t i m e h e was bos s of 5 the medical departm e n t / w h a t e v e r it was 6 called. And it had c h a n g e d n a m e s from time 7 to time becaues oth e r pe 0 p 1 e w a n ted it t o 8 be called the occup a t i 0 n a 1 m e d 1 c a 1 9 department and ever y t h 1 n g e 1 s e Dr . Ke 1 1 y , 1 0 as; the boss, kept v e r y c 1 o s e a n d tight 1 1 liaison with his pe o p 1 e , a n d b e c a u s e of the ] 2 transfer of informa t i o n b a c k a n d forth i t 1 3 had to be that way. I t s t i 1 1 i s that w a y , 1 4 except now by boxes I n d u s t r i a 1 h y g i e n e is 1 5 separate and indust rial h y g i e n e chemist r y 1 6 and toxicology and all, the y ' r e all 1 7 separate groups, an d the d e par t m e n t is very 1 8 large now. 1 9 Q. In your answer when you referred 2 0 to boxes, you mean boxes on an 2 1 organizational chart? 22 A . Yes . . 2 3 Q. During the time that Dr. Kelly was 2 4 the head of the d e p a r t m e n t , did you have 2 3 any access to hi m dir e c t 1 y ? You didn't GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI aa STLCOPCB4026378 1 have to go through Mr. Wheeler, right? 2 A . No. I had access to him 3 directly. Now, officially, I went through 4 Elmer, but by agreement with Elmer -- I had 5 never seen this kind of organization 6 before, I came out of the Army where the 7 Corporal spoke to the Sergeant in quiet 8 tones. I found with some work there that 9 it was necessary to do that. The liaison 1 0 was direct, the actual official line of 1 1 communication was well established, me to 1 2 Elmer to -- we traveled so frequently and 1 3 so much that it was almost -- it was lucky ] 4 if one person was there, much less two. 1 5 And it worked fine, the three of us worked ] 6 fine. 1 7 Q. You indicated in an answer a 1 8 moment ago that your plant visitation was 1 9 primarily to organic producing plants. Can 2 0 you state the reason or reasons why it was 2 1 primarily to organic producing plants? 2 2 A. Most of the problems of the other 2 3 p]ants were mechanical. Making fiber is a 2 4 mechanical problem. Making inorganic 2 5 chemicals is the rock and gravel business. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI T I STLCOPCB4026379 1 Organic chemicals are a chemical business, 2 and they requiredthe most attention. They 3 still do today. 4 Q. And what is the reason for that 5 degree of attention required? 6 A. They produce the vast number of 7 materials. They produce probably -- today, 8 probably 95 percent of Monsanto's products 9 are produced by the chemical company, in 1 0 actual differential products. The fiber 1 1 people make one thing, they make nylon 1 2 thread, and, you know, that process is a 1 3 fixed process. The old Monsanto inorganic ] 4 division made phosphate from ground rock in 1 5 furnaces. That's the old story, if you've 1 6 seen one phosphate furnace you've seen them 1 7 all. We went there and we maintained 1 8 1 i a i son with them and knew the people and 1 9 r a i s e d cane with them if t h e need be. But 2 0 our m a i n bus i n e s s was with organic 2 1 production, and it still is today. 2 2 Q. All right. After you became the 2 3 manager of water pollution control, did 2 4 your responsibilities change in any 2 5 fashion? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI STLCOPCB4026380 1 A . No. 2 Q. They remained the same? 3 A. That's right. 4 Q. Did you take on responsibility for 5 water pollution control or did you already 6 have it? 7 A. I already had' it. 8 Q. What did you do in connection with 9 discharging your responsibilities in 1 0 connection with water pollution control? 1 1 A. Well, you saw the organization 1 2 that I was with, I kept track of where the 1 3 c h e m i c a 1 i n d u s try i t s elf was in respect t o 1 4 this. and kept t r a c k o f some of the r. i v e r ] 9 basins t h at we were w o r k i n g on. because 1 6' these were the ones into which we 1 7 ultima t e 1 y were going to discharge wha 1 8 p o 1 1 u t ion we did or didn ' t do. The Oh 1 9 river. the Mississippi R iver and some 2 0 the coastal areas, Galveston Bay. I know 2 1 more about Galveston Bay than I need to 2 2 know. But I did it because we needed to. 2 3 Q W h e n y o u say kept track o 2 4 basins , are you referring to s t u d i 2 5 pollutants? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI STLCOPCB4026381 -- I 1 A. We sampled, tested fish, tested 2 residue, the bottom mud. And believe me, 3 Galveston Bay has an interesting layer of 4 bottom mud. Very, very, very thick mud, 5 very deep mud, it's been there a long time, 6 and the soil from the Trinity Basin has 7 bled off into it very much. And we need to 8 know what was going on in that aquatic 9 environment and what affect we were having 1 0 on it, if any. 1 1 Q. For what purpose did you want to 1 2 have that information? 1 3 A. Because we had to have it. 1 4 Q. What was the reason you had to 1 Ei h a v (_ it? 1 6 A. Because it was good management 17 practice. And Monsanto produced -- did it 1 8 before they were forced to. But they 1 9 didn't do it because they were forced to, 2 0 they did it because they wanted to do it. 2 1 Q. Did what, keeping track? 2 2 A. Kept track and treated their 2 3 wastes. We treated the waste at Texas City 2 4 when I was there. 2 5 Q. And, just briefly, what are you GORE REPORTING COMPANY .. . ST. . LOUIS, MISSOURI . 7n STLCOPCB4026382 I 1 referring to by treating waste at Texas 2 City? 3 A. We treated the materials, did he 4 we didn't discharge them to the bay. 5 Q. What treatment was effectuated 6 then? 7 A. We burned them, incinerated them, 8 recycled them to the degree that -- and 9 sent our -- the plant wastes themselves, 1 0 this is the laboratory waste, to the city ] ] waste treatment plant. We built a pipeline 1 2 tothem, paid them to treat our sewerage. 1 3 Now, ' ' - - r i ! t. y proud of Monsanto, so don't 1 4 jab me about that. We do what we think is 1 9 pjope r .i hi] necessary to maintain proper 1 6 management, and we did it then and we do it 1 7 now . i v. Q . Did your position, or, rather, 1 9 your responsibilities change when you 2 0 changed position to manager of industrial 2 1 hygiene and water pollution control? 22 A. Yes. Because now we're beginning 2 3 to get people. I got -- 2 4 Q . Staff? 2 5 A. I got a people. GORK Hf: PORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 71 STLCOPCB4026383 1 Q . Okay. 2 A. And 3 worked the hell out of him, 3 I ha te to say. And he bee a m e -- h o came 4 5 Tl hr- wun a graduate w ith a Master's 5 D e g r ee in environmental en gineering, and E 6 t u r 11 ( 3 him into an industr ial hygienist, 7 But -- to a degree. But he still was a 8 f i t s l class pollution engi neer as well, 9 And he helped. And becaus e of our 3 0 m n 1 I ip.lirity in hats he be came a hygienist 1 1 and still retained his -- some 3 2 r c p o n i b 1 3 i t y for polluti on control, 1 3 Q. Are you referring to Mr. K1 e y ? 3 4 A . I am. 3 5 Q . In addition to ha ving supervisory 1 6 r e s p onsibilities over Mr. Eley, did your 3 7 own function or responsibi lities change 1 8 when you became manager of industrial 3 9 h y g i ene and water pollutio n control? 2 0 A. Other than managi ng Mr. Eley and 2 3 sepa rating the work that w as needed, no. 2 2 Q. Did your responsi bilities or 2 3 f u n c tion change when you b ecame manager of 2 4 i n d u strial hygiene? 2 b A. By this time I ha d a couple of GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 77 STLCOPCB4026384 1 a d d i tional hygienists, and it looked like 2 let me -- we were working two sides of 3 the street in a way. And it came to the 4 p O i 11 i , d nil I knew it was coming, that it 5 had to separate, and it separated. And I 6 b c c ,i me industrial hygiene only and 7 poll ution control went to the engineering 8 d c- p .'i i t dent, where it belonged, originally, 9 a c t u ally. 10 Q. When w u that? When did that 1 1 s p1 i t occur? 1 2 A. i1 had to be sometime in the 1 3 '70' s. And I couldn't tell you. Actually, 1 4 T w a s given a choice by the vice --president, 1 5 do y ou want one or do you want the other. 1 6 Q . Which vice-president are you 1 7 r e f e rring to? 1 8 A. That would be at the time -- oh, 1 9 gosh , I can't remember. Oh, it was 2 0 p r o b ably Throdahl. Monte Throdahl. 2 1 Q. How do you spell Mr. -- 2 2 A. M-o-n-t-i, I think, or M-o-n-t-e. 2 3 And he said to me do you want pollution 2 4 c. n n l rol or do you want industrial hygiene, 2 5 we g ot to separate it, it's getting to be jGO R E REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI __ "7 0 STLCOPCB4026385 1 too big a job, and I c h o s e industria 2 hygi e n e because that was the biggest 3 chal lenge . 4 Q , J u st one t h i n g , Mr. Garre t t , I 5 d i d n ' t get the s p ell i n g of Monte's 1 a *> t 6 T) c) III t- . 7 A. T-h-r-o-d-a-h-1, I think. 8 Q. Was Mr. Throdahl responsible for 9 your d e partment or for you? 1 0 A . Yes. He was respons i b 1 e for 1 1 medical department and all of its man 1 2 environs at the time. ] 3 Q . What time was that? You said that 1 4 wasinthe'70's? . 1 5 A . Yes. 1 6 Q . When you started at Monsanto in 1 7 1954, do you know to whom Dr. Kelly 1 8 reported? 1 9 A. There was no operational chart ' 2 0 that showed where he reported. But he 2 1 reported to the old man, he reported to Mr. 2 2 Queeny, actually, if you want to know the 2 3 1 rulll . ` 2 4 Q. You're referring to the Chief 2 5 Executive of Monsanto? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI STLCOPCB4026386 1 A . Yes. The owner's son. 2 Q . And did Dr. Kelly continue 3 ationship? 4 A . No. There was an official 5 anization put in and the i ( w .i a 6 V) c of p ; t s i d e n t in charge of portions 7 staff, and Dr. Kelly reported to that 8 vi re- president , And there were a number of 9 those through the years. Mr. Throdahl, by 1 0 the way, was one of them at one time. 1 1 Q. When did the organizational 1 2 structure change such that Dr. Kelly was 1 3 reporting to a vice-president? 1 4 A . When Mr 1 5 from the company 1 6 the compa n y . 1 7 Q Approxi itely when was that? 18 A . Oh, g o s I don't know. It had to ] 9 bo in the '70's sometime. 2 0 Q. Do you remember who was the first 2 1 vice-president to whom Dr. Kelly had 2 2 reporting responsibility? 23 A. No, I don't remember. And there 2 4 was a whole string of them, so -- 2 b Q. Did you ever work with a gentleman GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI *7 C STLCOPCB4026387 1 by the name of Keller? 2 A. Bob Keller? 3 Q . Yes. 4 A. Yes. b Q. And what was Mr. Keller's title 6 when you worked with him? 7 A. Research chemist, senior research 8 chemist and then section leader, I believe, 9 in the research department when I knew him. 1 0 Q And you i n t e r a c ted with Mr. Keller 1 1 m e way in y o u r job? 1 2 A . And many other people. 1 3 Q And many other people? 1 4 A . Many other people. ]. 5 Q Sure. How did you interact with 1 6 Mr. Keller? 1 7 A. He was a research chemist in 1 8 charge of certain materials, research on a 1 9 certain line of organic materials, and we 2 0 interfaced with him and half a dozen others 2 1 for the same reason. 2 2 Q. Did Mr. -- I'm sorry. 23 A. I can't recall their names. Once 2 4 in a while I will. 2 8 Q. Did Mr. Keller have any GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI STLCOPCB4026388 l 1 responsibility for research relating to 2 PCBs ? 3 A. Fluids, I think, yes. 4 Q. Did you ever interact with Mr. 5 Keller as related to research into PCBs in 6 fluids? 7 A. Probably many times. 8 Specifically, I related to s o many , I don't 9 know whether I related to h i m any more than 1 0 anybody else. By the way. i t '' s Dr . Keller. 1 1 Q. Is it Dr. Keller? 1 2 A. Yes, indeed. 13 Q. You reminded me of something. Dr. 1 4 Kelly is a medical doctor? 1 5 A . Yes. 16 Q. And Dr. Keller - ] 7 A. Is a Ph.D chemist. 1 8 Q. I take it Dr. Keller did not 1 9 report to you? 20 A . No . fc ' ' 2 1 Q. Do you know to whom he did report? 2 2 A. Somebody in the -- in that 2 3 division's research g.roup. And, frankly, I 2 4 do not know. 2 b Q. Was Dr. Keller an employee of or GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI STLCOPCB4026389 1 associated with the organic chemicals 2 division? 3 A . Their resea r c h department, yes 4 Q Understandi n g that you int e r a c ted 5 w i 1 h a lot of people i n your career , d o you 6 have any particular recollection of 7 interacting with Dr. Keller on an issue 8 related to PCBs in fluids? 9 A . Probably any number of times, but 1 0 I don't recall the subjects specifically. 1 1 Probably on fluids, but -- because I think 1 2 that was his ball park. But not 1 3 specifically, no. 1 4 Q . Did you ever work with Dr. 1 5 k :i chard? 1 6 A. Yes. 1 7 Q. And -- 1 8 A. Bill Richard. William Richard, 19 2 0 Q Our ; < i y the per i o d that you worked 2 1 with Dr. Richard, what was his p o s i t. i o n ? 2 2 A. He was a section leader, I 23 be1 ieve . Now, you have got t 0 go back and 2 4 f j iid out from those research c o o - c o o s what 2 5 kind of command structure they had. They GORE REPORTING COMPANY . ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI TO STLCOPCB4026390 l 1 chan ged it quite frequently and I don't 2 know 3 MR. PREUSS: Just answer his 4 ques ti on . 5 A. But Bill Richard was a research 6 chem ist with the organic division when I 7 knew him. 8 MR. TALLON: Was Dr. Richard a 9 c o n t emporary of Dr. Keller? 10 A. Pretty much. Pretty much. 1 1 Q. Did they hold the same position at 1 2 were they in the same group? 1 3 A. Structurally, I think so. ]4 MR. PREUSS: You mean parallel 1 5 pos i t i o n s ? 1 6 MR. TALLON: Yes. 1 7 A. Parallel, structurally, I think 18 so. 1 9 Q . How did Dr. Richard's position 2 0 diff er from Dr. Keller's position? 2 1 A. Bill had -- I think he had a 2 2 cert ain part of the organic chemicals 2 3 p r o r essing setup with him, and we dealt 2 4 with him because he did. He was the one 2 8 (Join g the research in organic chemicals. |G0 R E REPORTING COMPANY . ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI ~i a STLCOPCB4026391 S 1 Q. How does that differ from Dr. 2 Keller's responsibility? 3 A . No difference at all, other than 4 Keller did the same thing and both of them 5 had groups that specialized in specific 6 organic chemicals. And I can't tell you 7 which ones did which. 8 Q. Did you ever interact with Dr. 9 Richard on the subject of PCBs? ]0 A. Probably. But I cannot recall it 1 1 now. 1 2 Q Do you know w h e t h e r Dr,. R i chard 1 3 had any role in c o n n e c t i on with res earching 1 4 or analyzing PCBs? 1 5 A. No. I don't know specifically. 16 no . I t would be wrong to say anything, I 1 7 don'1 t k now speci f i c a 1 1 y . ] 8 Q Are you aware of work that Dr. 1 9 Richard did that related to PCBs? 2 0 A. Probably. I don't remember 2 1 specifically, again. But I dealt with 2 2 him. But I dealt with a dozen others. 2 3 Q. During your career at Monsanto did 2. 4 you (vet work with a Mr. Tucker? 2 5 A. Tucker? I don't recall. GO R K REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI OA STLCOPCB4026392 I 1 Q. During your career a t Mon santo. 2 M t . r; ' r r e t t , did you ever ha v e o c c a s i o n to 3 study or consider the t o x i c i ty o f PCBs? 4 A . Yes. 5 Q. And when, to the best of your 6 recollection, was the first occasion that / you had occasion to consider PCB toxicity? 8 A. Probably the first day I arrived 9 in St. Louis, because it was one of the 1 0 organic chemical sections. 1 1 Q. Were you aware when you were 1 2 working in Texas City that Monsanto ]. 3 manufactured and sold products that 1 4 included PCBs as a constituent element? 1 8 A . No. 1 8 Q. Did you become aware of that fact 1 7 when you moved to St. Louis? ] 8 A. Yes. 1 9 Q. And how did you become aware of 2 0 that fact, as best you recall today? 2 1 A. Elmer Wheeler took me over to the 2 2 research department, which was in the old 2 3 building downtown, and introduced me to a 2 4 whole host of research people in charge of 2 h different parts of the organic chemicals GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI O1 STLCOPCB4026393 1 group. And one of them was the fluids 2 group. They were for everything -- you can 3 imagine, we manufactured organic chemicals 4 of 50 different varieties. And those 5 people managed research sections covering 6 those 50 or more sections in organic 7 chemical processing. 8 Q. Was there a specific fluids group 9 when you arrived in St. Louis in 1958? 10 A. I think so. I think it was -- 1 1 they calledit the fluids group. Now, it ] 7 may have had two people in it. And at one 1 3 time it may havehad one person in it, I 1 4 don' L know. But it was known as the fluid 1 5 group. 1 6 Q Hid that group continu e i n 1 7 e n c e d u r i n g the entire cou r s e of your 1 8 r U t Mon s a n t o ? 1 9 A . I do n ' t know. 2 0 Q Did that group continu e i n 2 1 e n c e at leas t through the ' 7 0 ' s ? 2 2 A. To the best of my knowledge, it 2 3 did. I'm not aware o.f exactly when it 2. 4 red or di s a ppeared, if it did e i t h e r . 2 5 Q Do you recall the names of anyone GORE REPORTING COMPANY .. ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI Q * STLCOPCB4026394 i 1 who worked in the fluids group during the 2 time that you were with Monsanto? 3 A. There was a Ph.D chemist that died 4 that had some of the original patents, and 5 I knew him briefly. And I don't think he 6 headed that group. I don't think he wanted 7 to head anything, I think he -- I don't 8 think he wanted to head anything. He was a 9 chemist that wanted to work in the lab. 1 0 And he died early in my career at St. 1 1 Louis. . ] 2 Q . A r e you able, a s y ou sit here 1 3 t o d a y , to r e c o 1 1 e c t the n a m es of anyone who 1 4 was i n that g r o u p during t h e course-of your 1 5 care e r at M o n s a n to? 1 6 A. No. I would be -- I knew so many 1 7 of those organic chemical r esearch people 1 8 and they changed around a 1 o t , and i t w o 1 9 be impossible to do that, I t would b e 2 0 impossible to trace it. If y o u ask e d 2 1 somebody else how to trace m y c a r e e r / h o 2 2 you'd ever find it all out. I don't k now 2 3 No, I do not know. 24 Q. Fair enough. I'm just wondering 2 5 if, as you sit here today. you remember the I 1 IGORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI STLCOPCB4026395 1 name of anyone whom you identified with 2 that group? 3 A . No. 4 Q. I asked you, to start this line of 5 questioning, whether you had ever had 6 occasion to consider or study the toxicity 7 of PCBs, and you indicated that probably 8 you did on the first day you arrived in St. 9 Louis. Are you referring to a general 1 0 responsibility or a specific focus on PCBs? 11 A. I met a contract -- we had a 1 2 small lab that did work for us, and I met 1 3 that gentleman. I can't remember his ]4 name. He, by the way, is also dead. And 1 5 he -- I was introduced to him on the 1 6 premise that that was where they did the 1 7 screening, toxicology screening tests, the 1 8 early acute screening tests. And we -- at 1 9 some times we tested materials that were to 2 0 b c' .) d d e d t o f 1 u i d s in the flu i d g r o u 2 1 Q D o you r e member the n a m e o f 2 2 lab? 23 A . No . ' 2 4 Q. Was it Industrial Biotest? 2 5 A. Initially, no. But, ultimately. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI Q /I STLCOPCB4026396 1 that was the name of it. 2 Q. Was the small lab that you did 3 work with when you first started a 4 predecessor to Industrial Biotest? 5 MR. PREUSS: I'm going to object 6 to Ihe form of the question. 7 A. Idon'tknow. 8 MR. TALLON: The reason I asked 9 you that question, Mr. Garrett, was that ] f! y ... i. .aid in your answer eventually it 1 1 became Industrial Biotest, and I'm ] 2 wondering whether -- 1 3 A. Our dealings became with ] 4 industrial Biotest. 1 5 Q. I see. And approximately when did 1 6 ihrii (nil tact initiate, as best you recall? 1 7 A. Sometime in the early '70' s or 1 8 inic 'Ed's, I would assume. But I can't 1 9 say. That really is a guess, and I hate to 2 0 guess . 2 1 Q . Okay. In what way did the -- 2 2 your introduction to this small lab that 2 3 did the work on toxicology tests relate to 2 4 the toxicology of PCBs? 2 S A. If any basic tox screening was GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI STLCOPCB4026397 1 done on fluid materials, they would have 2 doiif it in that period of time. 3 Q. I want to focus on that time 4 period when you first came to St. Louis 5 from Texas City. When you first came 6 Texas City were you aware, as a chemist, 7 that there was such a thing as a 8 polychlorinated biphenyl? 9 A. Probably not. Chemically, 1 0 probablynot. 1 J Q . In your positionas an industrial 1 2 hygienist when first you came to St. Louis, ] 3 did you discuss issues related to 1 4 toxicology of PCBs with Dr. Kelly? ] 3 A. It would have been more likely the 1 6 otherwayaround. 17 Q . Meaning that he would have 1 8 commentedtoyou? 19 A. Yes. On most of the materials 2 0 that we handled in the plant I wasbriefed 2 1 by Kelly or Wheeler or both connected with 2 2 those materials that we felt had been 2 3 tested and we had some standards on, and 2 4 those that we felt were hazardous. That 2 8 was my job, industrial hygiene. | I i i i to! j l j j iJ ; j \ i I j ij i j j j GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI qa STLCOPCB4026398 I 1 Q. in your answer of a moment ago you 2 said that you were briefed on chemicals 3 that we had, I'm using your term, I think, 4 we had some standards on and some that were 5 hazardous. Does that describe two 6 different groups, one group with standards 7 and one group that was hazardous? A/rec* 8 A . Not necessarily. I was -fa-T ought--u-p_ of 9 J.er Texas City, I was an inorganic physical 1 0 chemist in an organic lab in Texas City, I 1 1 had done some lab^on pollution control and 1 2 fish toxicity for the production facilities 1 3 for acrylonitrile, and that was the old p/u> i 1 4 -s h-cwp production facilities. I didn't know 1 5 anything about what Monsantomade, and I 1 6 was briefed by Elmer and/or Kelly in dxi'i T -rhe-vx 1 7 connection., -----------a-n-dr they^sent me out to the 1 8 plants to look at the exposures of our 1 9 workers to those materials, and to make 2 0 comments to the plant and to write a report 2 1 to Dr. Kelly. And that was where I learned 2 2 about what was made where. And pieces and 2 3 bits of those fluids were made in different 2 4 plants . -ft-n-4- (Chat ' s w~he.r-e I was told. 2 5 Q. When first you came to St. Louis (GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI STLCOPCB4026399 1 from Texas City i n 1958, were ther e any 2 Mon santo products i ncluding PCBs f or which 3 you had standards, to use your ter m ? 4 A . There were in the limited , limited 5 i n d ustrial hygiene toxicology lite rature at 6 the time some recom mendations to b e m a d e , 7 and there were a sc t of recommenda tions for 8 an r` 1 c a Is that had bee n made by 9 a U niversity of Mic higan professor f. hat was 1 0 p 11 ! ' i s h e d by them, and we had copi e s o f 1 1 the se^ There also were some mater ials from 1 2 the API on chemical s involved in a 1 3 pet roleum refining business that w ere 1 4 a v ,i ilable in API da ta sheets. And that's 1 5 w h a t we used as our beginning poin t . And 1 6 w e manufactured man y materials tha t fitted 1 7 t h o se individual st andards . 1 8 Q When you ' r e using the ter m 1 9 s t a n d a r d s , for the sake of clarity , how are 2 0 you using that term 7 2 1 A. If the mat erial used benz e n e in 2 2 i t s production, and Monsanto is a great 2 3 use r of benzene, we knew approxima t e 1 y 2 4 a b o ut the acute tox icity and a goo d deal 2 5 a b o ut the chronic t oxicity of benz e n e . And ! i i ! i j i i j j | j | j j | Ii GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. L 0 UI S, MISSOURI OQ STLCOPCB4026400 j------*-i_ ' I. ^ 7. /Tv !, , in ' ; a 1 - A 'LC'l'2/36/ < ->T-7 , the MCA, the r 'he CMA and the API had data 3 sheets on benzene. And there were methods 4 In in:, i for it. Some pretty cumbersome. 5 But we did tests for it to make sure our 6 people were not being exposed to excessive 7 amounts of benzene. For example, toluene, 8 theTc were some standards on that. Now, 9 you get into some of the fancy babies, and, ] 0 n f i , i h r r e were not. There are now, but 1 1 there weren't then. ] 2 Q. When you're referring to 1 3 standards, then is it fair to say that 1 4 you're referring to a degree of exposure or I 5 contact beyond which exposure or contact is 1 6 Ti n l tecommended? 1 7 A. That is correct. ] 8 Q. And when you're referring to acute 1 9 toxicity, are you referring totoxicity 2 0 with an immediate effect if the exposure is 2 1 above a certain level? 2 ?. A. That's what acute means. Now, the 2 3 material toxicity we had was large largely 2 4 acute. There was, however, a lot of 2 5 chronic work that had been done on some i |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI j aq ' STLCOPCB4026401 1 materials such as benzene and lead and j 2 mercury and tr4^--s-e---',1r+ri-f>-g-s . We knew these P^-C^syirri&tfic. r-.AUl^v- /evdJs j 3 and they were s-t-s rvd a r d standards* r e-g-u 1 a-r 4 g-^-at-R-4-a~r-d s . f : b Q. And it's fair to say that when you ; 6 refer to chronic toxicity in your answer ! 7 you're referring to toxicity as a result of j 8 exposure over a period of time? 9 A. Long term, that's right. And j j j 1 0 these also met certain toxicological ! 1 1 parameters of the day. Chronic toxicity to : 1 2 them meant certain types of toxicstudies. ; 1 3 Q. And in the day, what was the I 1 4 accepted definition for chronic toxicity in ] 5 termsoflengthoftime? : 1 6 A. It was -- the whole system was ; ] 7 built on life-time, preferably, and you ; 1 8 would probably assume life-time as 30 ; 1 9 working years of a man's life. Andon the ; 2 0 premises of that base, most chronic 2 1 toxicity was done to determine how much 2 2 would create difficulties in animal 2 3 species, primarily multiple animal species, 2 4 or preferably in multiple animal species 2 5 over long periods of time. And the primary CORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI j STLCOPCB4026402 4 1 period was two years. 2 Q. Primary period for chronic -- 3 A . For chronic studies was two years. 4 Q . At the time that you joined the 5 medical group in St. Louis in 1958 -- 6 A . '54. 7 Q ' 547 8 A . Yes 9 Q A t the time you joined the medical 1 0 group in S t . Lou is in 1954, were there ] 1 s i n P. -i j placable to Monsanto products, 1 2 including PCBs? ] 3 A. Wc knew the chronics. I don't 1 4 recall. If there were, I don't recall 1 5 t hem, no. There was not very many 1 6 anywhere . ] 7 Q You i n d i c a t e d i n your answer that 1 8 we knew the c h r o n i c s , what did you me. an by 1 9 that? 2 0 A . We knew the c h r onicson some 2 1 material s we made, we h a ndled, becaus e they 2 2 had been handled so ma n y years. You can 2 3 start wi th a list of m a n y of them; le a d , 2 4 flMO I u I / , benzene, that s o r t o f stuff 2 5 Q But in your a n s w e r w h e n you s a i d ii i i f | i GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 91 STLCOPCB4026403 1 that you knew the chronics, were you 2 referring to chronics with respect to 3 Monsanto products where a constituent 4 clement was PCB? b A . No. I was referring to individual 6 materials that we manufactured and moved 7 cm l of the process in the way of the 8 workers. I mean, let's be honest, that's 9 what an industrial hygienist is supposed to 1 0 do, is to make sure that if that process is 1 1 possible to get in the way of the worker 1 2 and expose him, then you must do something 1 3 either to the worker or to the process, and 1 4 we did both. But as far as who did -- we ] 8 did a lot of chronic toxicity work on the 1 6 PCBs prior to my coming there and after I 1 7 came there, and thiswas handled by Dr. 1 8 Kelly at the Kettering Institute in 1 9 C .i n c i n n a t i . 2 0 Q . When you said in your answer that 2 1 we did a lot of chronic toxicity work, 2 2 c o u 1 d you describe for me what you're 2 3 referringto? '. 24 A. it' had the material we would 2 5 start two year studies with rats, and that j i j j | j 1 ! I i I f j ! j j j j ; I i I ; i ! G 0 R K R P. P 0 N T TNG COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI no STLCOPCB4026404 1 would be with Indus tria 1 Biotest o r i t s 2 p i v cl o r or . Okay? An d there wer e 3 consulting laboratories that could a n d 4 w w i. 1 ' 3 r it, do c h r o n i c studies . You give 5 them a bucket of your s t uff and th e y ' d toll 6 you who 1 I lie two year m u Itiple bea s t study 7 showed . 8 Q . When you ) o i n e d the medical group 9 in St. Louis in 1954 we r e you aware of the 1 0 7- o u u 1 l u i.f chronic t o x i c ity studies related 1 1 to PCBs that had been - where those 1 2 s l u ti i < r hud been p e r f o r m ed as of that date? 1 3 A . No. 1 4 Q . Air you aware o f whether or not 1 5 there were such studies at that point in 1 6 i i mf ? 1 ' A . Yes, there w e r e such studies don e , 1 8 and we did most of them On the bare rat 1 9 studies, we had them do n e prior to the ti m e 2 0 I came there. I don't k n ow -- and the 2 ] studies of degradation a n d so forth were 2 2 done at Kettering later u nder Dr. Kelly's 2 3 supervision, and that w a s factored into' o u r 2 4 information that we gav e customers on P C B s . 2 9 Q . When you ref r i n your an s w e r to i |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI [ qn I STLCOPCB4026405 1 degradation, are you referring to ?. degradation of chemical components in its 3 environment? 4 A . I'm referring to, in this case, 5 pyrolytic degradation under laboratory 6 conditions, because that's the only place 7 they could do it. 8 Q. Are you referring to decomposition 9 under fire? ] 0 A . That's right. 1 1 Q . And when you refer to bare rat ] 3 f,i m <! i i :. r are you referring to bare as a 1 3 condition, b-a-r-e, or the name of a 1 4 person. Bare? ] 8 A. No. Just stuff it in their gut 1 6 and see what happens. At varying levels. ] 7 And this is an acute toxicity result. 1 8 Q . Were there acute toxicity analyses 1 9 with respect to PCBs when you joined the 2 0 medical group in St. Louis in 1954? 2 1 A. I don't know. 2 2 Q . Did you subsequently become aware 2 3 that such studies existed? 2 4 A. Well, I subsequently became aware 2 8 of what we used as standards at that GORE REPORTING COMPANY . ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI Q4 STLCOPCB4026406 1 particular time. And we -- I had no 2 problem with the fluids in the first 3 place. In the manufacturing process there 4 were some problems, industrial hygiene 5 problems, but it had nothing to do with the 6 fluid product themselves. It had to do 7 with the precursors and so forth. 8 Q. What were the standards used by 9 Monsanto when you joined the medical group? 1 0 A. We used the benzenestandard. 11 MR. PREUSS: Are you talking about 1 2 acute, now, or what? 1 3 MR. TALLON: Well, in Mr. 1 4 Garrett'sanswer -- 1 5 A. What we used to protect our ] 6 employees? 1 7 Q. Yes. 18 A. We used the benzene standard of 1 9 the time, because it was the raw material 2 0 that started it. 21 Q. That started it. What's the "it" 2 2 in that sentence? 2 3 A. The chlorobiphenyls and what were 2 4 the problems in the manufacturing process 2 b related to the precursors. Benzene. | j i j i j i |I j j i j I | j ; ! 1l i j l I I ! [ [ |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI STLCOPCB4026407 1 (Discussion off the record). 2 MR. TALLON: After you joined the 3 medical group in St. Louis in 1954, Mr. 4 Garrett, did you become aware that there 5 were indications that Monsanto products, e, including PCBs, had an effect on human 7 skin? 8 A. As a chemist -- 9 MR. FREUSS: Let me just object to ] 0 the foiin i.f the question as no foundation, 1 1 assuming facts not in evidence. You can go ] 7 P f1 ( ' , i :7 . \. As a chemist, I already knew that. 14 MR. TALLON: As a chemist, from 1 5 your work in Texas City or -- 1 6 A. From work in the university. ] 7 Q. Okay. 1 8 A. Believe it or not, universities 1 9 also practice safety. 2 0 Q. When you joined the medical group 2 1 in St. Louis did you have any discussions 2 2 with O'. Kelly about the effects of 2 3 application of PCBs to human skin? 2 4 A. Yes. We discussed it in the sense 2 5 of what do we do, and he said we prevent it |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI I r\ r I STLCOPCB4026408 1 from being exposed to the skin as best we 2 can . 3 Q. After you joined -- by the way, 4 do you remember the approximate date or 5 dates of your communications with Dr. Kelly 6 on the subject of skin contact with PCBs? 7 A. No. I probably couldn't even get 8 close. 9 Q. Do you remember if it was in the 10 ' 50 ' s? 1 1 A . Probably. 1 2 Q Do you rec o 1 1 e c t any d i s c u s s i o n s ] 3 t h Mr. Wheeler on the s u b j e c t o f s kin 1 4 n t a c t with PCBs i n the ' 5 0 ' s ? 15 ' A. Of course. b e c a u s e he was m y boss. 1 6 and he sent me out to look at these units, 1 7 and he briefed me before I went, and after 1 8 that it was pretty much I briefed him on 1 9 w h a i I found, and that was about it. 2 0 Q. Did you ever report to Mr. Wheeler 2 1 0 7) your observations? Well, not ever. 2 2 During the 19 5 0 ' s did you report to Mr. 2 3 Wheeler on any observation s that you made 2 4 concerning the effect of s kin con tact with 2 3 PCBs? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI STLCOPCB4026409 1 In all of the years I worked at 2 Monsanto a n d t h e many t h o u sand times I was 3 in those u n its I never s a w an individual 4 problem a t all w i t h any s k in or any 5 inhalatio n o r i n anybody ' s eyes or anywhere 6 else. 7 Q Any individual problem meaning an 8 individua 1 worker with -- 9 A . Any individual worker in any of 1 0 the proce sses, and any workers that used it 1 1 that we h ad contact with enough to see. 1 2 Some cust omers, we went and talked to 1 3 them. In all those days I never saw a 1 4 single so litary case in any of our ] 9 d i spenser ies or ever saw it on their skin 1 6 or anythi n g else. 1 7 Q Do you agree that skin contact 1 8 with PCBs causes, or has an effect on skin? 19 MR. PREUSS: I'm just going to 2 0 object, i t's vague. You're not describing 2 1 the type of PCB, where the contact is, how 2 2 long the contact is, what the dosage is. 2 3 A . I repeat, I have never seen any 2 4 skin mani festation, any inhalation 2 5 manifesta tion or any contact manifestation I i GORE REPORTING COMPANY . ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI r\ r\ STLCOPCB4026410 1 with any PCB in any worker or customer in 2 all the years I worked with it. 3 MR. TALLON: Did you ever 4 pd t I i cipate in an analysis of inhalation 5 irritation of certain workers in England as 6 a result of breathing PCB vapors? 7 A. No, not that I know of. And it 8 would have to depend on who did it in 9 England for me to believe anything about ] Cl it, anyway. 1 1 Q. During the 1950's, did you discuss 1 2 with Dr. Kelly whether exposure to PCBs 1 3 resulted in liver damage or kidney damage? 14 MR. PREUSS: Could result, you 1 5 mean? 1 6 A. Could result? We did liver 1 7 function studies on our workers for years ] B and nothing showed up. Now, let's look at 1 9 it fromthis point of view, we had 2 0 thousands of chemical materials as raw 2 1 materials in individual processes and 2 2 products, our responsibility was to cover 2 3 all of them, and any untoward effect on any 2 4 of our workers and any information that we 2 5 must pass on to our customer's workers. j j I j i j j I l (GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI r\ r> STLCOPCB4026411 1 PCBswere so innocuous, innocuous in our 2 records, both health and otherwise, that 3 they got the usual look to see if anything 4 hdd changed. Now, because they were 5 chlorinated aromatic hydrocarbons we did a 6 vast amount of work on them to make sure 7 this was not true. 8 MR. PREUSS: Was true, you mean? 9 A . That this was not true. It was 1 0 true that these things were not harmful. 1 1 At what we considered operational 1 2 temperatures of the operations, I saw they 1 3 were not harmful. And I saw them making ] 4 floor tile out of the damn stuff. Which we 15 stopped, by the way. 16 MR. TALLON: My question, though, 1 7 is, didyou ever talk with Dr. Kelly about 1 8 whether exposure to PCBs resulted in liver 1 9 damage? 2 0 A. We talked to him about PCBs a 2 1 great deal, because PCBs became a popular 2 2 subject. And, again, in our own experience 2 3 as the only manufacturer in the whole 2 4 hemisphere for all these years, our people 2 5 had been studied and studied and studied, IGORR REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI STLCOPCB4026412 1 and we studied the mate rials, we studied 2 the toxicology, we took them apart, we 3 burned them, we did eve rything we could 4 do. My honest opin ion is, in our use in 5 the manufacture and the use of the 6 materials that I sa w , a nd I saw the uses in 7 everything from foo d p r ocessing to 8 transformers and so for th, was there ever a 9 single -- thermal burn s, I could take you 1 0 to Union Electric, the only thing they ever 1 1 got with the PCB tr a n s f ormer fluids they 1 2 used were thermal b urns 1 3 Q. Did Dr. Ke 1 ly ever express to you 1 4 an opinion that PCB s we re related to- liver 1 5 damage or kidney da mage 7 ] 6 A. Dr. Kelly told me, and I already 1 7 knew, that chlorina ted hydrocarbons, if you 1 8 were going to judge a c lass of materials 1 9 that were hepatoren a 1 t oxins, you would 2 0 probably say they w ere chlorinated 2 1 h y d rocarbon s . Okay ? H owever, in the case 2 2 o f P C B s we n e v e r s a w it ever in a customer 2 3 o r anybody els e . W e ha ve never seen a 2 4 jus t i f i e d c a s e o f t o x i c ity in a worker in 2 5 all the yea r s w e m a d e i t, in both Europe jGORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI I t n d l STLCOPCB4026413 i and the United States, period , Let's b e 2 honest. 3 MR. PREUSS: You've answered 4 A . He asked me, and t h a t ' s my 5 professional opinion, and t h a t ' s my 6 professional judgment from mi 1 1 i o n s o f 7 looks at people and wa t c h i n g everythi n g 8 from phone manufacturi n g u s i n g it as a 9 hydraulic fluid to the stuff laying i n the 1 0 Goddamn ditches of a p r o c e s s i n g plant that 1 1 was a hell of a crappy plant . Nobody got 1 2 hurt, nobody. 13 MR. TALLON: Did you ever 1 4 prescribe standards fo r w o r k e r s at Mo n s a n t o 1 5 who did work with PCB materia Is? 1 6 A . Yes. 1 7 Q. What standard s did y o u p r o m u 1 g a t e ? 1 8 A. I don't remem b e r . ] 9 Q . Do you rememb e r in g e n e r a 1 w hat 2 0 the standard involved? 2. 1 A. There were mi s t s t a n d a r d s an d 2 2 there were X amounts, We n e v e r did s e e 2 3 anything near that sta n d a r d i n the a i r . 2 4 Q . Were there -- 25 MR. PREUSS: You ' v e answered i t . GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI STLCOPCB4026414 1 A. It's like throwing rocks in the 2 air, we didn't do it. It wouldn't do 3 anything. 4 MR. TALLON: Were there standards 5 other than mist standards? 6 A. Well, we're not saying mist 7 standards, we are talking about exposure 8 standards. We would talk about how can you 9 get biphenyls in a human system and cause 1 0 difficulty. We never saw it. But we still 1 1 tested for it, because it did belong to the 3 2 Tamily of materials that under certain 1 3 circumstances, and many of that particular 1 4 1 r. m i i y cf materials caused trouble. They 1 5 were commonly known as hepatorenal toxins. 1 6 Rut we never saw it, ever. And believe me, 1 7 we had people work their entire life, many 1 8 hundreds of them, with that stuff. 1 9 Q. Did you promulgate cautions or 2 0 directives on how to deal with these 2 1 materials or how to avoid exposure - - 2 2 A. Yes, we did. 2 3 Q. -- to Monsanto's workers? 2 4 A. We used our own standards with our 2 5 workers. j i l | j ! i i j ; j j j j1 ii j i j (GORE ' REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI i no STLCOPCB4026415 1 Q . And what were those st 9 2 A . Wear glov e s , keep ever y t h i n g 3 button e d up. And it was, anywa y, really, 4 b e c a u s e this was a reactor of s ome size and 5 couple xity. Do no t allow this material to 6 get on your shoes. If so, you change 7 shoes . And all of the workers were given 8 c lothi ng and shoes , gloves and respirators , 9 which we demonstra ted there was no need for 1 0 at all 1 1 Q . And can you describe how you 1 2 demons trated there was no need for the 1 3 respir ators or other equipment? 14 A . We never saw a case. We never saw 1 5 a h u m a n being that had an out-of-standard 1 6 liver function. We never saw a sick man in 1 7 ail t h e years we made it. And all the 1 8 plants that had -- that all had 1 9 d i s p e n e r i e s did w e ever h a v e anyth i n g . We 2 0 had -- more than a n ything el s e , we had 2 1 c o m p 1 a n t s that you guys are crazy. you 2 2 come i n here and tell us we have got to put 2 3 these people in moon suits and put 2 4 respir ators on them and there is nobody 2 3 ever g ot hurt with the damn stuff. And we I | I i i i GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI i naI STLCOPCB4026416 1 said yes, you do, because it is the 2 s t d ndard established by them, the OSHA 3 people. A nd we fought them hammer and / 4 / nd so did the other manufacturers 5 of any of these fluids, b ecause we had 6 never see n anything with them. It takes an 7 enormous damn temperature to get them into 8 a gaseous state . 9 Q When you say we got complaints, 1 0 what are you referring to ? ] 1 A . I can remember g o i n g to a 1 2 processin g plant where th ey used PCB as a ] 3 p s (><<. s s i n g fluid -- 1 4 Q A Monsanto plant ? 1 8 A . A Monsanto plant . And telling 1 6 them -- giving them the litany about ] 7 P r niectio n. And the nurs e and the 1 8 hygienist there, the safe ty director, 1 9 a c: l u a 1 1 y , just ate my ass out for telling 2 0 them that . They've been make making it for 2 1 38 years and had never se en a damn thing by 2 2 anybody, and they said "W e got problems. 2 3 t ha I is n ot one of them". 24 Q Okay. When you use the t e r m keep 2 5 buttoned up, what does th at mean t o y o u ? f I IGORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI [ STLCOPCB4026417 1 A . Do you know -- really, this i s 2 t o sound silly, the only h a z a r d we 3 had was people slipping on i t . 4 Q Okay. b A . We did that -- in the ranks over 6 in the processing department we had to put 5i('p -prccr-f/ccrJnj . , 7 in theA -- e put in the floo r^--t-u--# that 8 has little steel tipples in it, and we gave 9 them shoe S , Mon santo shoes , t h e y had t h 1 0 own shoes t had their names o n t h e m , and ] ] t hey c o u 1 d walk there with out s 1 i p p i n g . 1 2 And we had problems with that, slipping. 1 3 MR. PREUSS: The question was what 1 4 does button up mean. The question he asked 1 b you is what does button up mean. 1 6 A. What it means button up the system ] 7 s r > there isn't anything, including the 1 8 slop-out, that can create a mechanical 1 9 hazard of falling and breaking your neck. 20 MR. TALLON: Do you have a 2 1 t oco] lection of when Monsanto workers were 2 2 asked to, or were made to wear gloves or 2 3 o r special cloth i n g , res p i r a t o r s ? 2 4 A . We had the p e o p 1 e in the p r o c e s s , 2 9 his is prim a r i 1 y the proc ess a t GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI i na STLCOPCB4026418 I 1 Krummric h, East St. Louis plant that I k now 2 more a b o u t than the old one that used t o b e 3 down at Anniston . That one disappeared i n 4 my early days at Monsanto, so that's no 5 problem. You b 1 ended these materials t 0 6 v u r i ous fluid c h aracteristics. Okay? 1 n 7 other wo rds , p e o pie wanted the fluid fo r 8 its flui d charac teristics. What's the P our 9 point, w hat's t h e boiling point, what's the 1 0 solidifi e d point , how cold will it get 1 1 before i t s o 1 i d i fies and so forth. The e 1 2 are f1ui d charac teristics that dictated its 1 3 use. By the way , we talked to the Swed e s 1 4 about t h is thing , even, and they didn't 15 ever h a v e any p r oblems with it. -i-' m--s-e-r-*--r- 1 6 ir 1 7 Q. Are you referring to Swedes 1 8 associated with the studies done by -- ] 9 A. I'm talking about Swedes where 2 0 fe-h-e-y--t r-a-n o- p o-r -t-erd----- they used it in their 2 1 electrical transport system like we did. 2 2 And primarily in capacitors and 2 3 transformers. '. 24 Q. Okay. Just to jump back for a 2 5 moment, do you remember when Monsanto ji i G 0 K F: REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI STLCOPCB4026419 1 employees were advised to or made to wear 2 Tespirators or gloves or other protective 3 clothing? 4 A. They were doing it whenI came to 5 Monsanto. They were supposed to do it. 6 And the supervision then was not nearly as 7 good as it was later on in connection wit h 8 safely people in the individual plants. 9 When I left the company we had hygienists 1 0 in l he plants, professional hygienists in 1 1 the plants. In the East St. Louis plant, 1 7 for the last 20 years we've had trained 1 3 professional safety people. T h e s e are ] 4 people with degrees in safety engineering 1 5 and trained professional hygienists in ] 6 these plants. But believe me, their 1 7 problems were not in the PCB department. ] 8 Q. When you referred to the concept 1 9 of keeping the PCBs buttoned up or the 2 0 process buttoned up to prevent spillage or 2 1 leakage, do you know when that directive 2 2 was in place? 23 A. Before I came. Before I came that 2 4 was the orders. I just reinforced those 2 5 orders. Ifound some of the stuff open at GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI STLCOPCB4026420 1 times and raised cane with them. These were storage -- largely storage 2 3 facilities . 4 (Noon Recess) . 5 MR. TALLON: Why don't we have 6 marked as the next exhibit, that is. 7 Transwestern 111, a two page document 8 bearing production numbers Tran 058059 9 through 058060. ] 0 (Tianswestern Deposition Exhibit Number 1 1 111 mark'd for identification). 12 MR. TALLON: Would you take a 1 3 moment and review that document, please, 1 4 Mr. Garrett? Have you looked at that 1 5 document? 1 6 A . Yes. 1 7 Q. Are you able to identify the 1 8 author of that document? 1 9 A. No. You don't have the last page, 2 0 I guess. No, I can't identify it. 2 1 Q . Do you have a recollection of 2 2 being asked to review a proposed response 2 3 to a reporter from the San Francisco 2 4 Chronicle? 28 A. Yes. I remember -- I don't j ! i I GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI STLCOPCB4026421 ! 1 r e m e mber this one specifically, no. So, 2 m a y b e we should say on that, I don't 3 r e m e mber that one specifically, no. 4 Q . Do you have a recollection of 5 bei n g asked on more than one occasion to 6 r e v i ew responses to -- 7 A. Through the years, yes. 8 MR. PREUSS: Wait a minute. To 9 some body from the San Francisco Chronicle? 1 0 MR. TALLON: Yes. 1 1 A . No. 1 2 MR. PREUSS: Makesure he finishes 1 3 his question, otherwise you're answering 1 4 some thing different than what he might be 1 5 thin king about. 1 6 MR. TALLON: Do you have a 1 7 r e c o llection of reviewing proposed 1 8 7 e p o uses to reporters where the proposed 1 9 r e s p onse was addressed to the subject of /,, 20 PCBs 9 2 1 A . No. 2 2 Q. Can you describe the purpose for 2 3 w h i c h you conducted the reviews that you 2 4 r e m e mber conducting? 25 MR. PREUSS: I'm not sure -- I | GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI STLCOPCB4026422 1 object to the form of the question as 2 mischaracterizing his prior testimony. He 3 said he didn't recall that. 4 MR. TALLON: Do you remember 5 participating in a review of proposed 6 responses of Monsanto Company to reporters? 7 A. No, not specifically to 8 I e p o r t i.' i s . No. 9 Q Do you r e m e m b e r r e v i e w i n g proposed 1 0 responses of Mon santo t o outs i d e r s other 1 1 i it t omers ? 1 2 A . No. 13 Q. Did your jobinclude any 1 4 responsibility for reviewing company 1 3 slci laments to persons or entities outside 1 6 Monsanto? 1 7 A. From time to time on specific 1 8 subjects, yes. 1 9 Q. For what purpose did you conduct 2 0 that review? 2 1 A I f w e got quest ions i n , we had - 2 2 we t r i e d t o a n swer them. and i f anybody 2 3 else c o u 1 d n '' t answer the m in M o nsanto, we 2 4 got them. 2 S Q. And why, particularly, were you GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI nil STLCOPCB4026423 1 involved in that exercise? 2 A . Just asked by Dr. Kelly to do it. 3 This was my turn in the barrel. 4 Q . Refer, if you will for a moment, 5 back to the exhibit, Mr. Garrett. You'll 6 see in the third paragraph in the last line 7 there is a reference to a Paul Benignus? 8 A. Benignus. 9 Q. Can you identify thatgentleman? 3 0 A. Paul Benignus, yes. 1 1 Q. What was his responsibility? 1 2 A. He was the product supervisor for 1 3 the aroclors. I think Paul is probably 1 4 dead now, but he was the product supervisor 1 5 for the aroclors. What his title was, they 3 6 changed them so frequently, I don't know. 1 7 He was the product superintendent or 3 8 supervisor of that product line. 1 9 Q. For what period of time did he 2 0 have that responsibility, as you understand 2 1 it? 2. 2 A. From the time I came to St. Louis 2 3 to probably into the ' 7 0 ' s or' so. And I 2 4 can't tell you exactly, I have no idea when 2 5 he actually left or went to some other GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI STLCOPCB4026424 1 duties o r whatever 2 Q . Was he included within the organic 3 chemicals division that you described 4 earlier? b A . Yes, he was an organic chemicals 6 man. 7 Q . As you understood it -- or, 8 rather, as you used the phrase product 9 supervisor, what does that job entail in 1 0 the case of Mr. Benignus? ]] A. He was the primaryliaison between 1 2 the c o r p o ration and i t s -- the things it 1 3 c o u 1 d d o and the sal e s people in the field 1 4 Q , W h at do you mean when you use the 1 9 phrase the corporation and the t h i n g s that 1 6 it could do? 1 7 A. He was the man who knew the people 1 8 in the various corporatestructures, in 1 9 this case the staff, and where he could get 2 0 information to pass it on to his people in 2 1 the field. And his people in the field 2 2 were the people that sold it. 2 3 Q. During your tenure atMonsanto, 2 4 and focusing particularly on the 1950's and 2 5 1960's, was there an office or department GORE REPORTING COMPANY .. ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 113 STLCOPCB4026425 1 responsible for communications with the 2 pres s ? 3 A . We had a P.R. department, and it 4 had about three people in it. Everything Ei conn e c ted with the press was usually bumped 6 over t o t h e m . 7 Q . And at any point in the 1 9 5 0 ' s and 8 19 6 0 's can you identify the persons who 9 work ed within the P.R. department? 1 0 A. No, I can't remember the names. 1 1 Q. There is a reference in Exhibit 1 2 1 1 1 to an R.W. Risebrough. Did you see ] 3 that name? 1 4 A . Yes . ] 5 Q. Do you know who R.W. Risebrough 1 6 is? ] 7 A . No . 18 Q. Did you - 1 9 A. You blanked me there. 2 0 Q. Do you know if R.W. Risebrough is 2 ] a p r ofessor at the University of 2 2 Cali f o r n i a ? 2 3 A. The tone of the dispatch sounds 2 4 like somebody like that. 2 b Q. But is it fair to say from your I i I ! j ! I j | 1i j I GORE REPORTING COMPANY . ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI ii& STLCOPCB4026426 i 1 answer that you did not have direct contact 2 with R.W. Risebrough, that you remember 3 today? 4 A . No. b Q . Are you familiar with a company 6 the name of which is Texas Eastern 7 Transmission Corporation? 8 A. My sister worked for them until 9 she was medically retired in Houston. 10 Q. Inconnection withyour work at 1 ] Monsanto, did you have any interaction with 1 2 Texas Eastern? 1 3 A. I had some interaction with pipe 1 4 companies, but -- pipeline companies, but 1 5 I don't recognize Texas Eastern as one of 1 6 the people we dealt with directly. ] 7 Q. And who is the "we" in that 1 8 sentence? 1 9 A. My group. f_ ' 2 0 Q . Can you identify other pipeli n e 2 1 companies with whom you dealt? 2 2 A . No. M o n s a n t o had a pi p e 1 i n e 2 3 p .i e c e, owned a part o ,f a pipeli n e comp a n y 2 4 i n the Lion Oil bun die , and the p r o c e s s 2 b the products of the -- the w e1 1 p r o d u c t s f |G 0 R E REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI I lie;' STLCOPCB4026427 1 from out in west Texas came through a 2 portion of that pipeline. But it was like 3 many pipelines, it was multi-owned. 4 Q. Did you ever interact with 5 customers of Monsanto who were in the 6 pipeline business? 7 A. I sent my people to inspect and 8 e X . i in i t i ( I he hazards associated with 9 recycling oil from various oil fields that 3 0 i.iiin Oil operated or owned part of and 1 1 operated, and many of these recycling 1 2 planls were partially owned or jointly 1 3 owned with others and the pipeline 1 4 o p c i 1 ' ' i' 11 s from those. I don't recall the 1 5 names, but my people -- not I, but my 3 6 people had contact with them, yes. 1 7 Q. Did you or anyone working for you 3 8 have direct contact with any customer of 1 9 Monsanto who was in the pipeline business 2 0 for the purpose of discussing PCBs? 2 1 A. Not to my recollection. 2 2 Q. Did you ever discuss with Dr. 2 3 Kelly whether he had direct contact with 2 4 any representative of Texas Eastern in 2 5 connection with Monsanto's PCB-containing GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 1 16 STLCOPCB4026428 i 1 products. 2 A . T n f v c r did. I don't recall, that 3 I know. I can't recall it if I did. 4 Q. Do you i i -collect communications 5 with Mr. Wheeler where a subjccl of i h o s e 6 c o in m i, 11 c , i t i o n s was Mr. Wheeler's 7 interaction with Monsanto's customers in 8 the pipeline business when such 9 communications related to PCBs? ] 0 A . No. 1 1 Q. Have you ever heard of 1 2 Transwestern Pipeline Company, other than 1 3 th/ough our discussion this morning? 1 4 A. I heard about it yesterday. Yes, 1 5 '[ have heard about it before, as, being a 1 6 flanker to El Paso. 1 7 Q. I'm sorry being a what? 18 A. As being an also -- a westbound 1 9 g a s n i p C system a 1 o n g s ide, north of -- in 2 0 the same genera 1 area as El Paso Pipe. 2 1 Q And in what c ontext did you hear 2 2 about that description? 2 3 A. I haven't the foggiest. In 2 4 messing wi t h the w e s t Texas crude setup we 2 5 dealt, with many p e o pie, and I don'' t GORE REPORTING COMPANY S T LOUIS, MISSOURI 1 1 "7 STLCOPCB4026429 1 remember 2 Q . Have you ever heard of a Mo n s a n t o 3 prod ct known as Turbinol or Turbine 1 15 5? 4 A . Y r- r; . 5 Q . In wli at context did you fir s t hear 6 about Turbinol 15 3? 7 A . It w a s a--b-t-e-Trd--e---errre--o-f--te-h- _e- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - . 8 one of the ble nds of one of the PCBs with 9 some other flu id materials, 1 0 Q. And u nder what circumstance s do 1 1 you remember h aving an initial conta c t or 1 2 did you become aware of the existenc e of 1 3 Turbinol? ] 4 A. I knew it was made, I knew that it 1 5 was one of the end products of PCB a n d 1 6 other fluids in our blending system, which 1 7 we did a number of. 1 8 Q And d o you re member approxi m a t e 1 y 1 9 when you bee a m e aware that Turbinol was one 2 0 of y our -- - one of Mon santo's end pr o d u c t s ? 2 1 A . N o . I would be just guessi n g . 2 ? Q Did y o u ever acquire any kn o w 1 e d g e 2 3 as to the use to which Turbinol was put by 2 4 its consumers? 2 5 A. What it was used for? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI iip STLCOPCB4026430 1 Q . Yes. 2 A . Yes. 3 Q. What do you know about what 4 Turbinol was used for? b A. It was turbine fluid. 6 Q. What do you mean by turbine fluid? 7 A. Because of its lubricity it was 8 used, and it's non-flammability or n o n - f i re 9 problems -- it was called fire-resis t a n t , 1 0 Monsanto never did like to use 1 1 non- flammable -- with fire-resistant 1 2 fluids, it made turbine fluids, had enough ]3 lubricity with additives to be -- t o lube 1 4 the joints while it was used as a tu r b i n e 1 F> 1 iuid in high speed turbines. 1 6 Q. And do you know in what ] 7 applications the turbines were used where 1 8 Turbinol was used to lubricate the 1 9 t u / 11 i n e s ? 2 0 A. Gosh, yes. Primarily in th e 2 1 electrical industry. 2 2 Q I ' m sorry , I can'' t hear you 2 3 A . P r i m a r i 1 y in the electrical 2 4 .i n d u s t r y , 2 b Q Are you a ware of any other (GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI iiq STLCOPCB4026431 1 application or use of turbines where those 2 turbines were lubricated with Turbinol? 3 A . We were asked questions from time 4 to time about some applications of 5 Turbinol, or of Turbinol type, which was a 6 PCB-containing turbine fluid. That means 7 more than -- we were never privy to all 8 the additives unless we asked and unless we 9 had any reason to doubt them. So I've 1 0 looked at and studied, and my people have 1 1 checked on turbine fluids as a class used 3 2 in small and large turbines by a good many 1 3 Monsanto customers. Now, I could not tell ] 4 you even closely what the blends were that 1 5 went to who. 1 6 Q. Okay. Do you know, of the 1 7 applications in which the turbines were 3 8 used, where those turbines were lubricated 1 9 with Turbinol? 2 0 A. TVA. I went to TVA in Knoxville 2 1 -- I mean, in Chattanooga, their safety 2 2 p e a [) l i' one time and spent a couple days 2 3 messing with them. And their interest was 2 4 in both water turbines and steam turbines. 2 5 Q. Did you or your people visit GORE REPORTING COMPANY S T LOUIS, MISSOURI ion STLCOPCB4026432 1 1 o c a tions other than the T V A location you 2 just referred to to ob s e r v e the turbine 3 a p p 1 ication? 4 A. I couldn't sa y I really, 5 genu inely couldn't say . s ome of my people 6 had -- I gave them as m u c h latitude as 7 p o s s ible. If they got cal led to go 8 some place that had som e t h i ng to do with 9 turb ines, they would h a v e determined what ln the status was from th e f 1 uid people and i l gone and made their be s t j udgment to the ] 3 i n d i vidual connected w i t h their specialty, 1 3 whic h was health. ]4 Q. Which was -- e x c use me? , 1 5 A. Health. ] 6 Q. Did you acgui re a n understanding 1 7 of h ow the T V A turbine was to be used or 1 8 was being used? 1 9 A. It was my gen e r a 1 feeling that 2 0 they used a million tu r b i n es in varying 2 1 type s of methods, and t h e i r interest was 2 2 not my specialty as mu c h a s it was a ? 3 S 11 ( r ' m y r. r corrosion p e o pie and people 2 4 who understood rubber and rubber mater i a Is 2 S \i s (- cl -i jackets and so for t h , so I sicked i i GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI i?i STLCOPCB4026433 1 them on our rubber chemical people. 2 Q . During your tenure at Monsanto was 3 there a group whose function it was to 4 bc'cuinc familiar with the application where 5 Monsanto products were being used? 6 A. Any of the product groups had 7 developed -- well, Benignus was an 8 example. All the product groups had an 9 individual or a group of individuals, ] 0 depending on the complexity of their group, 1 1 of saleable products that liaisoned between last&U5 ] 7 Monsanto and its many technical -f i-g-u-r eh o a-d-s 1 3 one way or the other and their customer. 1 4 And in many cases we went to the customer 1 5 with. them. We never went without them, 1 6 let's put it that way, to a customer 1 7 without the product man with us. And that 1 8 was the salesman out of the regional sales 1 9 office, or his superior. f_ ' 2 0 Q. Did Mr. Benignus have 2 1 responsibility for acquiring knowledge 2 2 about the applications of the Monsanto 2 3 products for which he had responsibility? 24 A. I don't -- to tell you the truth, 2 5 I do not remember the extent of Benignus' j j | j ; i j j | | ; j j j i j GORB REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI i oo STLCOPCB4026434 res ponsibilities, so I can't really answer 2 Iha t question. 3 Q. Is it your understanding that a 4 per son in his position in the organic 5 c 11 * in'. ! i vision would have that 6 res ponsibil ity? 7 A . Yes. 8 Q . I'd like to have marked as 9 T r a nswestern Exhibit 112 a single page 1 0 cl ci c: ument bearing production number Tran 1 1 0 5 4 4 5 2. 1 2 ( 'J' 7 ci nr, western Deposition Exhibit Number 1 3 112 mark'd for identification). 14 MR. TALLON: Have you taken a 1 5 mom ent to review that document, Mr. 1 6 Gar r e t t ? 1 7 A . Yes. 1 8 Q. And could you describe for the 1 9 r e c ord what that document is? 2 0 A. It's a letter to the safety 2 1 dir ector then of the W.G. Krummrich plant 2 2 0 f Monsanto concerning one of the stranded, 2 3 1 n this case isolated departments at that 24 p1ant . 2 8 Q. And what department was that? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 1 27 STLCOPCB4026435 i 1 A. It's the aroclor department. One 2 of the biggest abuse was eating in the 3 process areas. And when I first went into 4 the biggest of Monsanto's organic plants 5 they ate in the process areas. And I 6 finally got them out of there into the 7 eating room where they belonged. 8. Q. For therecord,Mr. Garrett, could 9 you identify what you meant when you used 1 0 the term aroclors? 1 1 A. Aroclors were the Krummrich 1 2 produced chlorinated biphenyls. 1 3 Q. Were chlorinated biphenyls 1 4 produced at plants other than the Krummrich 1 5 plant? ] 6 A. When I first went to Monsanto they 1 7 were produced at Anniston, Alabama, 1 8 briefly . 1 9 Q. During your tenure at Monsanto 2 0 were polychlorinated biphenyls produced at 2 1 any other plants other than those two? 2 2 A. Just W.G. Krummrich Plant. And 2 3 the Anniston plant when that unit was in 2 4 operation . 2 b Q. And is that your signature? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 1 24 STLCOPCB4026436 1 A . Yes. 2 Q. On the bottom of the document? 3 A . Yes. 4 Q. Are those your initials in the 5 lower left-hand corner of the document? 6 A . Yes. 7 Q. Followed by the initials SMB? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q . And was SMB a secretary in your 1 0 group at that time? ]. ] A. Yes. Lord, I never would have 1 2 remembered that far back in 1955. ]3 Q. Did youprepare thisdocument? 1 4 A . Yes. 1 3 Q. And was the document prepared in 1 6 the regular course of your business at 1 7 Monsanto? 1 8 A . Yes. 1 9 Q. And was it one of your functions 2 0 to prepare documents such as this document? 2 1 A . Yes. 2. 2 Q. For what purpose was this one page 2 3 document prepared? 2 4 A . T o stop eat i n g in the p r o c e 2 5 areas . And the p r o c ess area i n this GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 1 25 STLCOPCB4026437 1 was Department 2 4 6 2 Q. I want to refer you to the first 3 numbered paragraph of Exhibit 112, And I 4 refer you to the language which says, and I 5 quote, "Aroclor vapors and other process 6 vapors could contaminate the lunches unless 7 they were properly protected." What what 8 did you mean when you used the word 9 contaminate in that sentence? 1 0 A. Condensedaroclor vapor. 1 1 Q. And in what fashion could ] 2 condensed aroclor vapor contaminate 1 3 lunches? 1 4 A. It would condense on their lunch 1 5 bucket and/or their bag, whichever. 1 6 Q. And that was a reason why, in your 1 7 opinion, lunches should not be eaten in the 1 B p r r ess department? 1 9 A. That is my opinion why lunches 2 0 should not be eaten in any processing 2 1 department, and specifically that one in 2 2 this memo. 2 3 Q. In the second numbered paragraph 2 4 of this document you refer to the chance of 2 3 contaminating hands and subsequently GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI i oc STLCOPCB4026438 1 contaminating the food. Are you refe r r i n g 2 to the possibility of a worker gettin g an 3 aroclor on their hands? 4 A . Yes. b Q. And that, in your opinion, w as a 6 basis for prohibiting eating lunches i n 7 that department? 8 A. No. The reason for prohibit i n g 9 eating lunches in that department was i t 1 0 was dangerous and foolish to eat lunc h e s in 1 1 chemical processing departments of an y 1 2 kind, and I cannot make that plant mi n d if 1 3 the individual units don't mind. 1 4 Q. It is correct, isn't it, tha t the 1 5 paragraph numbered 2 is identified as a 1 6 reason for prohibiting eating lunches i n 1 7 that department, that is to say, Depa r t m e n t 1 8 7 4 6? ] 9 A. I would say it was the prima r y 2 0 reason. 2 1 Q . The I bird numbered paragraph 2 2 states that "It has long been the opi n i on 2 3 of I lit medical department that: eating i n 2 4 process departments is a potentially 2 8 hazardous procedure." Did you write that? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 1 ?7 STLCOPCB4026439 i 1 A. I sure did. 2 Q. And in that sentence where you 3 referred to the fact that it had long been 4 the opinion uf the medical department, what 5 period of time were you referring to? 6 A. My own boss' period of time, he 7 told me that himself. I came back from one 8 of the piocess -- it may not have been 9 this one, and he told me that he didn't 1 0 wanl outing in the process areas, either, 1 1 and if I could beat them on the head, beat ] 2 them on the head, and I did. 1 3 Q. And in that answer, by your boss ] 4 art- you referring to Mr. Wheeler? 1 5 A. That's correct. 1 6 Q. In addition to the sentence I just 1 7 read you, the paragraph numbered 3 also 1 8 states that the early literature work 1 9 claimed that chlorinated biphenyls were 2 0 quite toxic materials by ingestion or 2 1 inhalation. Do you see that? 2 2 A. Yes. 2 3 Q. And can you explain to me or tell 2 4 me the early literature to which you were 2 5 referring? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 1 28 STLCOPCB4026440 1 A . Decomposition 1 iterature that I 2 saw that was from somewh ere, I don't even 3 know. I don't remember, But if you'll 4 look abov e, you'll see " While the aroclor s 5 are not p articularly haz ardous," which wa s 6 our opini on, actually, a nd still is my 7 opin i on . 8 Q Do you know the publications in 9 which the early literature to which you 1 0 referred appeared? 1 1 A . In the health business in industry 1 2 the forma 1 appearance of formal literature 1 3 didn't co me along until late in the 1 4 business . Now, I'm not saying my ] 5 appearanc e on the scene, I came before this 1 6 happened, but a lot of it was in documents, ] 7 pamphlets , letters from customers or 1 8 letters f rom suppliers saying this product 1 9 can do t h us and so, and most of our made-up f^ ` 2 0 opinions and reasons were mixed up in those 2 1 documents and not in formal documents. If 2 2 you under stand what I'm saying. 23 Q Yes. When you use the term "early 2 4 literatur e work" in Exhibit Number 112, 2 5 were you referring to customer letters? II I (GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI STLCOPCB4026441 1 A . Very likely to that or a pamphlet 2 of some kind. 3 Q . And do you have any recollection 4 of the customer letters to which you were 5 referring, if they were included within 6 early literature work? 7 A . No. 8 Q. Do you have any recollection of 9 the identity of the pamphlets or other ] 0 mote-rials that were included within that 1 1 phrase "early literature work"? ] 2 A. No. it probably was connected 1 3 with - - ]4 MR. P R K ti S S : Do you know? 1 5 A . No. 16 MR. F'RKUSS: I don't want you to 1 7 guess. 1 8 A. T'd be guessing. 19 MR . TALL0N : Do you h a v < can 2 0 y o u y 5 v e ru e your best estimate a s to what 2 1 that phrase may have referred t o 22 MR . PREUS S : He said h e would be 2 3 guess i n g , s o if he's guessing. h e can't 2 4 give -- 23 MR . TALL0N : You i n t e r r upted him. II ! GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI i on STLCOPCB4026442 1 I ' d like to have his ans w e r . 2 M R . PREUSS: If he can give y o 3 best e s t i m a te, he will. If he' s 4 spec u 1 a t i n g or guessing, he won ' t . 5 A . It probably cam e from the work 6 done by Dr. Treon . 7 Q. I'm sorry. Doctor -- 8 A. Dr. Treon, 9 Q . And could you spell that last ] 0 n a in <- , please? 1 1 A. What? 1 2. Q. Would you please spell that 1 3 gentleman's last name? ] 4 A. T-r-e-o-n. . 1 5 Q . And who is or was Dr. Troon? 1 6 A. He was, he is dead. He was a 1 7 toxicologist with the University of 1 8 Cincinnati Kettering Laboratories. 1 9 Q . Had Dr. Treon published works or ?. 0 1 i 1 <- I ri i Hi <~ b y Nov m b e r 1 4 , 1 9 5 5 w h i c h 2 1 r e 1 a t e d to o r t o u h e d o n i 1M issue o f 2 2 t r.i y i r c i u y o f P C B 7 2 3 A . T Cl I! ' t k n o w . 2 4 Q . Arc- you a ware o f whether by 2 5 November 14, 1955 D r . Tr e on did an y work f G 0 R K KK PORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI i > i STLCOPCB4026443 1 relating to toxicology of PCBs? 2 A . The dates are difficult to judge. 3 It was in that period of time that some 4 w < 1. w -< 1 <> n e . b Q. And what work was that, as best 6 you recall? 7 A. Decomposition work on aroclors. 8 Q. Could you define for the record 9 whal you mean when you use the phrase 1 0 decomposition work? 1 1 A. Chemical disintegration of the 1 2 molecularspecies. 1 3 Q. And as best you recall it, what 1 4 was the conclusion or what were the 1 5 conclusions of the work which you have in 1 6 mind when you refer to decomposition work? 1 7 A. Depended on the temperature and 1 8 everything, of course. 1 9 Q. What depended on the temperature? 2 0 A. The decomposition state. 2 1 Q. And was that the only conclusion 2 2 of the studies which you have in mind, or 2 3 the literature work which you have in mind? 2 4 A. That's right. Now, you asked me 2 3 -- you approached this a different way. I j | | j GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI STLCOPCB4026444 1 do not know if that's what I had in mind. 2 You asked me do you know of anything that 3 could have, and that could have triggered 4 that comment. I don't know, it's too long 5 ago. 6 Q. I understand. In the paragraph 7 numbered 3 you wrote, "In any case, where a 8 workmanclaimed physical harm from any 9 contaminated food, it would be extremely 1 0 difficult on the basis of past literature 1 1 reports to counter such claims." Did you 1 7 write that sentence? 1 3 A . Yes. ] 4 Q. And do you have any recollection 1 5 of the past literature reports to which you 1 6 referred in that sentence? 1 7 A. Well, any reports on any material ] 8 that a worker got involved in would be 1 9 difficult to trace. He says he got -- he 2 0 ate somearoclor. Who's going to prove he 2 1 did not? That's my problem. We had very, 2 2 very little of that in Monsanto, of the 2 3 accusation that he did this or did that or 2 4 did something else. But it's possible. 2 5 And that's what it was there for. (GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI STLCOPCB4026445 1 Q . D i d you keep a file or did anyone 2 working in y our group keep files rel a t i n g 3 to literatu r e on toxicology of c h e m i cals 4 used by Mon s a n t o ? 5 A . Ye s 6 Q An d in 1955 do you recall whether 7 therewas a file or there were files a relating to PCB toxicology? 9 A . I ' m sure there were, but of my own ] 0 d i i i-- < t know 1 edge, that far ago, I don't 1 1 know. 1 ? 0 . D .i d you maintain such files 1 3 personally? 1 4 A . Wo h..id central files for our 1 5 system, for the medical system. You ]6 m <i i n' ' 1 our own correspondence files in 1 7 your own de s k. The only file I had in in y ] 8 of[ice was i n my desk. 1 9 Q Wh i ch file was that? 2 0 A . Th e only file I had in my office 2 1 when I work e d in Monsanto was a file in my 2 2 desk which c ontained largely personnel 2 3 records, sa 1 aries, salary set-ups, salary 2 4 schedules a n that s o r t of thing. The rest 2 5 of the stuf f e n t b y p r o c e s s , by product or ! GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI STLCOPCB4026446 1 by name into the regular file. 2 Q . Into the regular files of the 3 medical department? 4 A. That's right. So everybody could 5 use them, that's right. 6 Q. And was there one person whose job 7 it was to maintain those files? 8 A. A very overworked secretary. 9 Q. Who was that, do you remember? 1 0 A. Oh, my, that was many different ] 1 people. . 13 MR. PREUSS: Are you talking about 1 3 in '55? 14 MR. TALLON: I'm still talking 1 5 circa '55. 1 6 A. No, T can't. That would be 1 7 downtown at the Queeny plant, office 1 R bu i 1 ding . 1 9 Q . The f iles maintained in 1955 would S^ ' 2 0 be in the Quee ny office build i n g ? 21 A . No. No. They were moved out to 2 2 the m a i n off i c e. And much of them -- many 2 3 o f them were d estroyed becaus e they were 2 4 out o f date. f ar out of date, and the 2 5 amount of 1 i t e rature and reco r d s in GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI -i -\ rr STLCOPCB4026447 1 conn ection with health concerns with 2 c h e m icals have expanded so immensely that 3 it's difficult to keep files except quite 4 up- i <>-date files. And it changes so 5 rapi dly, as well. So the files that exist. 6 i f W e do h a v e them. m ay be some w h ere and 7 they may b e i n -- t h e y may be i n s t o r a g e , 8 they may b e o n c o m p u t er records r the y 9 p r o b ably h a v e been d i sposed of. 1 0 Q. Would you mark as Exhibit 113, 1 1 plea se, a single page document bearing the 1 2. prod uction number Tran 019567. 1 3 ( T r answestern Deposition Exhibit Number * 1 4 1 13 mark'd for identification). 15 MR. TALLON: Could you take a 1 6 m o m e nt and review that, please? 1 7 A. I'm through. 1 8 Q. Can you identify this document? 1 9 A . Yes. 2 0 Q. What is it? ' 2 1 A. I wrote it, it's in connection 2 2 with a question we were asked. 2 3 Q. I want to ask you a couple 2 4 q u e s tions about that format of the 2 5 d o c u ment, Mr. Garrett. This is a carbon j i j I j i ! I i GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI n nc STLCOPCB4026448 i 1 copy, or it appears to be, right? 2 MR. PREUSS: This is a Xerox copy. 3 MR. TALLON: Right. But the 4 original document is a carbon copy or a 5 copy of another document. In 1961 did you 6 have a photocopying machine or did you use 7 carbon paper? 8 A. In 1961 we used carbon paper, or 9 we used a photocopying machine, the old ] 0 Kokak sloppies, they used a fluid material 1 1 in it. 1 2 Q. Printed out in purple ink? 1 3 A. Ours didn't get out in purple ink, 1 4 I don't think. It was a rather sloppy 1 5 process. We had a bunch of buttons back in 1 6 that little closet, we did it with a bunch 1 7 of pincher clothes pins to let them drip 1 8 dry. Better than having them recopied. 1 9 Q. Up in the upper right-hand corner 2 0 of the document there is a couple of 2 1 handwritten notations. Is one of those 2 2 your initial? 2 3 A . J T G , yes. 2 4 Q. What does the application of your 2 5 initial to the upper right-hand of the | i |i I |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 1 77 STLCOPCB4026449 1 document signify, if anything? 2 A . I don't know. I don't know why 3 the hell I would c o p y -- put my ini t i a 1 s 4 o n my own d o c u m e n t . I have no idea why 5 t h a t ' s t h ere. 6 Q. Was it to indicate inclusion of 7 this document in your file? 8 A . No. I would not have kept it in 9 my file. It would have been in the 1 0 correspondence file for aroclors. 1 1 Q . And there is another set of 1 2 marginalia in the upper right-hand corner, 1 3 looks like an M and a little smiley face, 1 4 do you see that? 1 F> A. 24 something. I don't know what 1 6 that is. 1 7 Q. You don't recognize the 1 8 handwriting? 1 9 A. It could be a doodle, I'm a 2 0 terrible doodler. 2 1 Q. Do you remember the circumstances 2 2 under which -- 2 3 A . Excuse me. I t looks like a 2 4 M o n s a n t o telephone n u m b e r, actually, a four 2 5 d i g i t -- in the old days before we got all GORE REPORTING COMPANY . ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI i tq STLCOPCB4026450 I 1 the modern equipment our telephones were 2 four digit things. 3 Q. Do you know whose phone extension 4 that was? 5 A. Heavens, no. 6 Q. In 1961? 7 A . No. 8 Q. The format of thedocument, are 9 you able to tell from looking at this to ] 0 whom this document was addressed? 1 1 A. This one? 1 2 Q . Yes. ] 3 A. To A . T . Hinson. And he was likely 1 4 in the overseas division at that time. 15 Q. Are youdrawing the conclusion 1 6 that Mr. Hinson was likely in the overseas 1 7 department because the text of the memo 1 8 refers to some experience in Germany? 1 9 A . Yes. q ' 2 0 Q. And do you recollect the 2 1 circumstances under which you authored this 2 2 memorandum? 23 A. Except that it came over from 2 4 overseas, very likely. It probably went to 2 8 the local contact in Germany, went from GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI inn STLCOPCB4026451 i there t o the office in Brusse Is and from 2 there t o the office in St. L o u i s and from 3 there over here to me. 4 Q. The first paragraph of the memo 5 refers to a letter from a Mr. Hank or 6 Hanke, and the paragraph states, and I 7 quote, "It is our opinion that he has been 8 handling aroclors in a very incautious 9 manner." Do you remember the manner in 1 0 which -- 1 1 A. No. I would assume Mr. Hanke is 1 2 German . 13 MR. PREUSS: Don't assume. Do you 1 4 remember the manner of handling? 1 5 A. I don't. 16 MR. TALLON: But I think the 1 7 question was, do you remember the manner in 1 8 which the aroclors were being handled, to 1 9 which the memorandum refers? 2 0 A. No, not actually. 2 1 Q. What does that mean? 2 2 A. I don't -- there are some 2 3 European uses of it that we were violently 2 4 opposed to and finally stopped, and I don't 2 5 know -- and this is unfair to say that. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI i fi n STLCOPCB4026452 1 because it may not be true in this case, so 2 that's the end of that. 3 Q. The next sentence in that same 4 paragraph states that "Based on American 5 industrial hygiene practices this might 6 even be called a dangerous manner." Do you 7 know what it was that you were referring to 8 as being dangerous? 9 A. Unless it was vaporized in the 1 0 breathing zone of the workers, I would not 1 1 have said that. 1 2 Q And why w a s that d a n g e r o u 1 3 A . Bee a u s e t h e y w o u 1 d breath 1 4 Q Did you a u t h or t h i s m e m o r 1 5 the r e g u 1 a r course o f your b u s i n e s ] 6 Monsanto? 1 7 A . Yes. ] 8 Q. And did you author it in response 1 9 to reading Mr. Hanke's letter on or about 2 0 Haich e, 1961? ' 2 1 A. That is what it appears to be. 2 2 Q. Do you doubt that that's what it 23 i K? 24 A. No, I don't doubt it. But that 2 5 does -- there could, I suppose, be reasons iGORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 14L STLCOPCB4026453 *' '` ' i- i t . m V' .* K 1 y 15^. ^ . r' d v ` ' 1 ' f o ^ Mr. Hinson to 3 rely on your response in this m c m i j i . i i > d u m ? 4 A . T h ,i I ' i' i g h t . 5 Q . And it was part of y ou i regular 6 f unc tion at Monsanto to author memoranda 7 such as this one? 8 A . Yes. 9 Q . Why don't we mark as Exhibit 114 a 1 0 two page document bearing production 1 1 numb ers Tran 019568 and 019569. 1 2 ( Tr answestern Deposition Exhibit Number 1 3 1 14 mark'd for identification). 14 MR. TALLON: Would you take a 1 3 tti o m c lit and review that, please? Did you 1 6 get a chance to review that? 1 7 A . Ye;;. 1 8 Q . Can you identify that document? 1 9 A . Yes. 2 0 Q. What is that? 2 1 A. It's a letter to a gentleman named 2 2 C` h e c e r at A r g o n n e N a tional Labora t o r y 2 3 cone r n i n g the use o f aroclor heat transfer 2 4 f 1 u i ds that they were proposing to do -- 2 5 to u s e . GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 1 AO STLCOPCB4026454 i 1 Q. Who wrote that letter? 2 A. It was written by myself. 3 Q. Do you remember the inquiry to 4 w h i c h you were responding in this letter? 5 A. Specifically, no. 6 Q. Did you write this letter in the 7 r e g u lar course of your job at Monsanto? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And did youwrite this letter on 1 0 or a bout November 20, 1962 in response to a ] ] 1 e t t er sent to you or some communication by 1 2 M r . Charles Cheever? 1 3 A. Looking at the letter, I would say 1 4 it w asfrom a direct request from Mr. 1 9 Cheever . ] 6 Q. By direct, you're referring to a 1 7 tele phone communication? 18 A.Letter or telephone call. 1 9 Q. And do you recollect whether you 2 0 w r o t e this letter at or about -- 2 1 A. It says that in there, by the way. 2 2 Q. Right. And do you recallwhether 2 3 you wrote this letter within a reasonable 2 4 time after you got that communication from 2 5 M r . Cheever? I | j [i |G 0 R E REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI STLCOPCB4026455 1 A. Heave n s r I don' t k n o w . But i t 2 says November 1 3 t h and w e a n s w e r e d it 3 N o v e mber 20th, s o we did a f a i r 1 y dec e n t 4 job. 5 Q. And you intended Mr. Cheever to 6 re.ly on the information reflected in the 7 J otter? 8 A . I did. 9 Q. And responding to inquiries such 1 0 as the one from Mr. Cheever was part of 1 1 your job at Monsanto? 1 2 A. It was part of my job, part of Dr. 1 3 Kelly's job and part of Mr. Wheeler's job 1 4 at this time. I ended up inheriting this. ]. 5 I don't know any specific reason why I did, 1 6 other than it was a letter that needed 1 7 answering . 1 8 Q. The last paragraph on the first 1 9 page of the letter indicates that "In f^ ' 2 0 experiments where suitable animals were 2 1 exposed to the decomposition products of 2 2 such fluids, toxic effects occurred in the 2 3 animals only at concentrations which humans 2 4 would not voluntarily endure," and so on, 2 5 I'm not going to read to the end of the GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI i & a. STLCOPCB4026456 1 sentence. What were the toxic effects to ? which you referred? 3 A. You would get the same toxic 4 effect, essentially, from hydrochloric acid 5 fumes . 6 Q. What toxic effect was that? 7 A. Extreme irritation of the upper 8 respiratory tract, the eyes and ultimately, 9 if you can't escape, it would transfer to 1 0 the lower tract and you would end up having 1 1 acidity, just like swallowing acid. 1 2 Q. Were there other toxic effects 1 3 from exposure to decomposition products of 1 4 thefluidsreferredto? 1 5 A. Actually, ifyou'll -- 16 MR. PREUSS: Referred to in the 1 7 letter or -- 18 MR. TALLON: Yes, referred to in 1 9 the letter. f^ ' 2 0 A. Well, a bundling of decomp 2 1 products from pyrolysis would contain 2 2 carbon, and it did, because stuff was 2 3 black, soot, smoke was black. It would 2 4 contain probably no individual compounds 2 5 because they would have been pyrolyzed, so j i j i | i jI I |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI i a cr STLCOPCB4026457 1 you would end up with carbon chlorine 2 hydrogen chloride, which would promptly j 3 turn into hydrochloric acid in the moisture 4 of the atmosphere. We ran these at over a 5 thousand degrees fahrenheit, and it's on 6 the second page, the conditions. As a note J 7 here, in Dr. Treon's work he showed that 8 below 600 degrees fahrenheit there was no 9 *=-------a-b o v e--6 0-6--t-h-ene--wa s--n-e- decomp products, 1 0 literally, they were the final pyrolytic 1 1 products down to L and L materials. j j 1 2 Q. You advised Mr. Cheever that "We 1 3 do not believe protective clothing is j j 1 4 necessary to prevent skin contact during ! 1 5 transfer of these fluids." Do you see; 1 6 that? | 17 MR. PREUSS: Where are you reading j 1 8 from? I 1 9 MR. TALLON: From the third 2 0 paragraph on page 1. 2 1 A. In pumps, the material at room 2 2 temperature was innocuous . -1-4--h-a d--e-ft-e------> 2 3 infe--trxrtrd-d:--dissulve--in--a--------- It ' was a , good 2 4 grease and oil solvent and it would 2 5 dissolve the oils out of the skin. It GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 1 AC STLCOPCB4026458 1 could dry your skin, that's all. 2 Otherwise, it was just like putting your 3 hand in water. 4 Q. As of 1962, I believe you had 5 e a r1ie r testified that Monsanto workers 6 were advised to wear gloves and other 7 protective clothing? 8 A. They wore gloves and protective 9 clothing to keep the fluid off their skin 1 0 and to keep it out of their -b 1 o-o d y - lunch 1 1 box. 1 2 Q. Before sending this particular 1 3 letter to Mr. Cheever, do you recollect 1 4 having this letter reviewed by anyone at 1 5 Monsanto? 1 6 A. No, I don't. 1 7 Q . Was it your practice to seek 1 8 review of correspondence with outside -- 19 A. Not necessarily. This contains - 2 0 the standard -- the information we knew, 2 1 and it's as good a thumbnail sketch as you 2 2 could get for a technical man. And Mr. 2 3 Cheever is a research engineer, as I 2 4 recall, over at Argonne, and he was working 2 5 on reactors. j i ; j j i | j i j j i! (GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 1 A *7 STLCOPCB4026459 1 MR. PRELISS : There is no ques t i o n . 2 MR. TALLON: If you weren't 3 finished with your answer, I would 4 appreciate it if you would continue. 5 A. No, there is nothing to answe r . 6 Q. I want to show you a document that 7 has a 1 ready been mark e d a s a n e x h i bit at an 8 earl i e r d e p o sition in t h i s m a 11 e r . I m not 9 g o i n g to h a v e it r e m a r k e d . 10 MR . PREUSS : C a n you give m e the 1 1 number? 12 MR. TALLON: Frederick Exhibit 7. 1 3 Will you take a moment to review that, 1 4 please. 1 5 A. Yes. 1 6 Q. Have you had an opportunity to 1 7 review that? 1 8 A . Yes. 1 9 Q. Can you identify the document? 2 0 A. I can't identify it specifically. 2 1 I can identify that I did it and it would 2 2 easily fall within my purview. 23 Q . This is amemorandum written by 2 4 you? 2 8 A . Yes. i GORE REPORTING COMPANY S T LOUIS, MISSOURI 1 AQ STLCOPCB4026460 1 Q. And it was -- was it a memorandum 2 written in the regular course of your 3 business? 4 A . Yes . Likely Pappage o r g e as k e d me 5 t o write i t , very likely. 6 Q Was the writing made on or about 7 Feb r u a r y 1 9 , 1 9 7 0 ? 8 A . T h a t's the date, yes 9 Q By the way, is this the kin d of ] 0 memo that you would dictate or would you 1 1 hand writeit and thenhave someone type it 1 2 for you? 13 A. It depended on which of the 1 4 secretaries I had at the time. Some of 1 5 them could do it and some had their own 1 6 pigs for organic chemical names and others ]. 7 made a horrible mess of them.So if it was 1 8 the latter, I wrote it by hand; if it was 1 9 the former and the first secretary I had 2 0 there, she did it beautifully. 2 1 Q. And did you intend for Mr. 2 2 Pappageorge to rely on the information that 2 3 you were communicating to him in this 2 4 memorandum? 2 8 A. Yes. Well, I communicated it to j I t | j j ( j GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 4* STLCOPCB4026461 1 him because I wanted him to know what we 2 needed to do. 3 Q. Was it an important part of the 4 business of Monsanto that the information 5 you were conveying in this memo to Mr. 6 Pappageorge be as accurate as you knew? 7 A . Well, it was an assembling of the 8 information that bits and pieces of 9 information that we in the medical 1 0 department did. And Pappageorge probably 1 1 asked a question of us and wanted a letter 1 2 reply in connection with the Great Lakes ] 3 studies, and that's what it involved and I 1 4 gavehimthisletter. ] 8 Q. And you believed the information 1 6 that you gave him in this letter was 1 7 accurate? 1 8 A. At the time it was as accurate as 1 9 we could make it, yes. 2 0 Q. Now, this appears, again, to be a 2 1 copy of an original memorandum or letter, 2 2 correct? There is no indication, but is it 2 3 your testimony that this was to Mr. W.B. 2 4 Pappageorge? 28 A. Yes. With a letter to Howard ; j ! i I j j if j ! I ii j i GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI i cn STLCOPCB4026462 1 Bergen and Clay. 2 Q. A carbon copy or Xerox copy to 3 those gentlemen? 4 A. Yes. E> Q. Who is Mr. Bergen? Or, rather, in 6 February 1970, what was Mr. Bergen's 7 position at Monsanto, as best you recall? 8 A. I would be remiss in telling you 9 anything, because I don't remember the 1 0 actual title. He was involved in this, in 1 ] the fluid group. Okay? 1 2 Q. He was involved in the fluid group 1 3 of the organic chemicals division? 1 4 A. That'scorrect. , ] 5 Q. Was he a businessman or a chemist 1 6 oralawyer? 1 7 A. He was a businessman, primarily. 1 8 That doesn't mean he did not have a 1 9 technical degree. As you know, in a 2 0 chemical company, very frequently the 2 1 businessman, even though he won't admit it, 2 2 is a chemical engineer or chemist or 2 3 somethinglikethat. ' 2 4 Q . And in the case of each of the 2 8 three names that appear on the top of that, j j i j ! | GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 1 C1 STLCOPCB4026463 1 the first page of this exhibit there is a 2 series of letters; for example, after Mr. 3 Pappageorge it says " W P A P A " , do you see 4 that, and after Mr. Bergen -- 5 A. Water pollution -- 6 MR. PREUSS : He just asked you if 7 you saw it? 8 A . Yes. 9 MR. TALLON: One after C.L. Clay, 1 0 and it says C. Clay. Is that an 1 1 abbreviation meaning the names -- 1 2 A. This, and one on Bergen would be 1 3 BRG . 1 4 Q What does t h at signify? 1 5 A . It's noth i n g more than a 1 6 transmis s i o n -- ] 7 Q That was a n address or an address 1 8 system? 1 9 A. That's correct. 2 0 Q . Now, in February of 1970 where was 2 1 Mr. Bergen's office in relationship to your 2 2 office? 2 3 A I was at that t i m e i n the A 2 4 Buildi n g at M o n s a n t o a n d M r . B e r g e n ' s 2 5 o f f i c e w o u 1 d have been i n the B or E i II | t GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI STLCOPCB4026464 1 Building. The organic division was in the 2 B building. 3 Q. Did you have any oral 4 communication with Mr. Bergen about thi s b memorandum or the subjects in it? 6 A. Howard was the kind of person that 7 came over to your office and sat down a n d 8 drank your coffee and sat on your desk, s o 9 it is possible that we did get Bergen o v e r 1 0 there asking about it. But I have a ] 1 feeling that it was Pappageorge that 1 2 initiated it and Bergen simply got a co py . 13 MR. PREUSS: Let me tell you, h e 1 4 wants to know what you can recall. He 1 5 doesn't want you to speculate on it. I f 1 6 you recall, that's fine. If you don't, 1 7 don't speculate. 1 8 A. No, I don't know, then. 19 MR. TALLON: I want you to ref e r 2 0 to the second name on the top of the 2 1 letter, C.L. Clay. Who was Mr. C.L. Cl a y 2 2 in February 1970? 2 3 A. i have absolutely no idea. 2 4 Q . Do you know if Mr. Clay was a 2 8 Mon r :i n 1 < 1 ii: p 1 o y e e ? gorf: reporting company st. louis, mi SSOURI STLCOPCB4026465 1 A . No. 2 Q. Do you know whether a memorandum 3 such as this exhibit -- was it your 4 pTcictice to send memoranda such as this 5 exhibit to non-employees, that is to say, 6 outsiders? 7 A. The way it is written and the way 8 it is listed, he was an employee at the 9 main office of Monsanto, but I don't recall 1 0 him. 1 1 Q. Now, you referred a couple of 1 2 times to Mr. Pappageorge, the person to ] 3 whom this memorandum is addressed. What 1 4 was Mr. Pappageorge's position in February 1 5 1970? 1 6 A. At one point, and this is probably 1 7 the point after he got to this job, he was 1 8 responsible for the technical coordination 1 9 of fluids and some other chlorinated or 2 0 halogenated materials for that division. 2 1 Q. What do you mean by technical 2 2 coordination in that answer? 2 3 A. Well, there were sales 2 4 coordinators, you know, people that knew 2 5 who the customers were and what they used | i ; j | i j | 1 GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 1 c; a STLCOPCB4026466 1 it for and so forth, and then there were 2 people who liaised between the technical 3 branches, that is, research, development, 4 medical and so forth. And Pappageorge was 5 that guy for the fluid group at that time. G Q. Did Mr. Pappageorge have 7 particular responsibility for 8 PCB-containing fluids or chlorinated 9 products? 1 0 A. The fluid he had the 1 1 responsibility for, yes. 1 2 Q. I want to refer you to the third 1 3 paragraph which appears on the first page 1 4 of this February 19, 1970 memorandum, and 1 5 particularly to the sentence which begins, 1 6 "At the present time we are holding a 1 7 request from Carl Clay." ] 8 A . Yes. 1 9 Q. Do you have a present recollection 2 0 of the nature of the request referred to in 2 1 that paragraph? 2 2 A. No. But I do know what it was 2 3 a b o u t . A n d I k n e w w h y w e d i d it. because 2 4 w e d i d i t f r e q u e n 11 y r and w i t h o t h e r 2 5 pro due t s a s w e 1 1 . i f w e had two a f f a i r s [GORE REPORTING COMPANY * ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI I 1 CT C I STLCOPCB4026467 1 going o n con n e c t e d with a sin g i e product, 2 c o n n e c ted w i t h the heal t h asp e c t s of that 3 p r o d u c t , and w e had a r e q u e s t f o r 4 something, we always had to ask the 5 requester, and in this case it's Clay, do 6 you want us to wait until we have these 7 other data and send all of it to this 8 customer or do you want us to send it 9 piecemeal. 1 0 Q . The requester was Carl Clay from 1 1 Texas Eastern? 1 2. A. It had to have been Carl Clay. 13 MR. PREUSS: You said Carl Clay 1 4 fromTexasEastern. 15 . MR. TALLON : That's what I said. 1 6 Has the requester Carl Clay? 1 7 A. Carl Clay was a Monsanto employee. 1 8 Q . Okay. Could you read that answer 1 9 back? 2 0 (The requested portion of the 2 1 record read by the reporter). 22 MR. TALLON: In your answer you 2 3 referred to if you had two affairs going 2 4 on. Hhat are you referring to? 2 5 A. Hell, if you're doing toxicology GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI l =; a STLCOPCB4026468 1 on aroclor fluids, yo u have a whole 1 o t of 2 identifiable aroclors , and we were pr 0 b a b 1 y 3 running toxicity stud ies on individua 1 4 aroclors, or studies for what Carl Cl a y 5 wanted on the individ ual aroclors, an d / o r 6 aroclor blends, becau se our fluid ble n d s 7 were not exclusively aroclor. 8 Q And do you k now if there was more 9 than one request pend ing from Texas 1 0 Eastern, is that what you're suggesti n g ? 1 1 A . Yes, that's what I was sugge sting. ] 2 Q Do you know what those reque s t s 1 3 were? 2 4 A. It probably was -- 15 MR. PREUSS: Do you know, is the 1 6 q u e r; l ion. 1 7 A . No. No. I don't of my own 1 8 knowledge, no. 19 MR. TALLON: Do you remember the 2 0 nature of the request from Carl Clay t o 2 1 discuss the toxicity of Turbinol? Th at is 2 2 to say, what was the request? 2 3 A. No. I don't know the specif i c s of 2 4 the request, no. 2 3 Q. And you wrot e in that same I j i 1 I I (GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 1 C. 7 STLCOPCB4026469 I paragraph Turbinol 153 is principally PCBs? A. V e r: . 3 Q . Where did you acquire that 4 information? 3 A . W e k n e w what was in all o 6 Q , D i d y o u have product i n f o 7 in the m e d i cal group describi n g t h 8 constituent elements of Monsanto products, 9 including Turbinol 153? 1 0 A. And the contaminants, if they knew ] 1 1 hem, we had them, yes. 1 2 Q. Did you believe at the time you 1 3 wrote this memo that Texas Eastern lacked 1 4 knowledge that this product is composed of 1 5 principally PCBs? 16 A . No . 1 7 Q . What i s m e a n t by the p h r a s e , " The 1 8 question that a r i s e s is do w e tell this 1 9 customer that t h i s p r o d u c t i s comp o s e d o f 2 0 principally PCBs " ? 2 1 A. Well, I asked the question of the 2 2 -- of Bill, who would have done the 2 3 answering anyway, do you want to tell them 2 4 that it's PCBs and/or PCBs and the ester 2 3 that was in there or not. And we were GORE REPORTING COMPANY ,, ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 1 58 STLCOPCB4026470 1 studying some of that blend. And do you 2 want us to wait until we've finished and 3 send the whole thing together or send it 4 piecemeal. We had a toxicity -- a 5 detailed toxicity summary of the aroclor 6 involved. Okay? Do you want me to send 7 Clay that and then later send him his 8 blend, because he knew the blend that 9 Turbinol represented, because it contain e d 1 0 a phosphate ester. 1 1 Q. When you wrote this memorandum, 1 2 did you have knowledge as to whether or not 1 3 Texas Eastern knew that Turbinol 153 1 4 contained PCBs? 3 5 A . Th i s 1 et t e r wrot e -- whe n I s aw 1 6 this 1 e t t e r a n d t h i s c o r r e s p o n d e n c e w i t h 1 7 Texas E a s t e r n / I d i d n ' t know they were e v e n 1 8 corresponding with them. I frequently 1 9 didn't. They sent me letters connected 2 0 with -- you saw the German letter, I ne v e r 2 1 had any idea that they were selling the 2 2 stuff in Germany, even. But here's a 2 3 letter, what do we do. We answered the 2 4 same way we do others. We tell the Germ a n s 2 5 we'll send somebody over if we have to. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MIS S 0 UR I 1 89 STLCOPCB4026471 1 And we probably -- from this, we probably 2 sent somebody down and -- to talk to Texas 3 Eastern with Clay present. 4 Q . For what purpose? 5 A. They obviouslyshowed some 6 interest or we wouldn't have got the 7 letter. It looks to me like there is some 8 urgency from Clay's letter. 9 Q. But do you have a present 1 0 recollection of whether or not Mr. Clay 1 1 sent you a memorandum or a letter ] 2 describing the nature of the inquiry to 1 3 him, ifthere was one? 14 A. I suspect the -- I suspect the 1 5 inquiry went to Kelly. 16 MR. PREUSS: Do you know whether 1 7 Clay sent you anything inwriting 1 8 describing the inquiry, is the question. 1 9 A . No. 20 MR. TALLON: Do you know whether 2 1 Dr. Kelly received such an inquiry? 2 2 A. Somebody did. 23 MR. PREUSS: He asked you whether 2 4 or not -- 2 5 A. I don't know. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI i cn STLCOPCB4026472 I 1 MR . TALL0N : Okay. So, i n o t 2 words, y o u d o n t h a v e knowledge o f the 3 originati o n o f the i nquiry that r e suit 4 your writing this memorandum? 5 A . No. G Q. If you look at the second page of 7 the memorandum, Mr. Garrett, there is a a sentence which states, "In the case of the 9 Texas Eastern request, they want to know 1 C) whal lhe decomposition of products of 1 1 Turbinol 153 would be." Do you see that? 1 2 A. Yes. 1 3 Q . Does reading that sentence refresh 1 4 your recollection as to the inquiry or 1 5 r e q u e st from Texas Eastern? 1 6 A. No. And to tell you thetruth. ] 7 b a s r'd on the date, I don t know why we said 1 8 that final sentence. but we did 11 1 9 p r o b a bly was part of the boiler plate that 2 0 went to everybody, I don t know 2 ] Q. Who is the we in that sentence? 2 2 A . M e and K e 1 1 y and Wheeler, who 2 3 answered a 1 1 these crazy letters . 2 4 Q W e re you the sole author of this 2 8 document o r would Mr. Wheeler -- ; (GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI .1 hi ' STLCOPCB4026473 1 A . No, I wrote the document. 2 Q. When you wrote in this memorandum 3 that we cannot give this information to the 4 customer withoutrevealing that it is 5 principally a chlorinated organic, did you 6 believe that the customer lacked that 7 information? 8 A. That what? . 9 Q. Did you believe that the customer 1 0 Jacked that information? 1 1 A . No. 1 2 Q. Then how can you -- 13 A. I don't know what the basis is. I ] 4 don't think there is any doubt he knew what 1 5 it was. He had it in the literature at the ] 6 time, for God's sake. 1 7 Q. So your sentence, we can not give 1 8 l. his information to the customer without 1 9 revealing that it is principally a 2 0 chlorinated organic is meaning-less, is that 2 1 your testimony? 2 2 A. I'm fishing -- 23 MR. PREUSS: I'll objec 2 4 A. I'm fishing for Pappage 2 5 tell me I can tell hi m that. GORE REPORTING COMPANY . ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 162 STLCOPCB4026474 I 1 MR. PREUSS: I object to the form 2 of the question as argumentative. 3 MR. TALLON: Can I have the 4 quo:. I i .. n back, please? 5 (The requested portion of. I ho 6 rernid read by the reporter). 7 A. At this date - 8 MR. PREUSS: There is no question, 9 Mr. Garrett. ] 0 A. There is a period of time -- 11 MR. PREUSS: There is no ] 7 q upr 1 j on . 1 3 A. No question. There is a period of 1 4 time in company, big corporation movements 1 5 where some people do something and other 1 6 people don't, and you must get everybody 1 7 together to do it, and that's what I was 1 8 trying to do. I remember this because we 1 9 were trying to -- it was in our /. ` 2 0 literature. we sent th e m the literature 2 1 bundle that showed it. 22 MR ,. TALLON : So - - 23 M R ,. PREUSS : Wait f or a question. 2 4 please. 28 MR . TALLON : What i s the IGORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI I Hr STLCOPCB4026475 i justification for making the statement that 2 we cannot give this information to the 3 customer without revealing that it is 4 principally a chlorinated organic with the 5 statement that the customer knew it? How 6 d o you r e c o ncile thos e two? 7 MR . PREUS S : I 'll object to the 8 f o r m (. i l l h e question a s argumentative. 9 A . A person asked it from Texas 3 0 Eastern. 31 MR. TALLON: What does the person 1 2 who asked it have to do with the 3 3 r ( conciliation? 3 4 A. You have to understand what he was 1 5 asking . 3 6 Q. Do you know who that person was? 1 7 A. No. But I have a feeling it was 1 8 probably somebody that may not have had the 1 9 technical background to understand what we 2 0 were talking about. 2 1 Q. Did you make a response to the 2 2 request from Texas Eastern? 2 3 A . You betcha., Most like 1 Y I t 2 4 depended on whether I was there or n o t . I f 2 5 I didn't. Kelly did it or Elmer did i t . GORE REPORTING COMPANY . ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 164 STLCOPCB4026476 1 Q. And did you make a response in 2 W J 3 ting? 3 A. I don't know from -- somebody may 4 h a v egone to Chicago and done -- and did 5 it . 6 MR. PREUSS: Heasked if you knew, 7 sir 8 A . I don't know. 9 MR. TALLON: Did you visit with 1 0 any representatives of Texas Eastern in 1 1 o r d er to respond to the request which is ] 2 ref erred to in this memorandum? 13 A. I don't know. And the reason I 1 4 don ' t know is because I gave several talks 1 5 u p there, and one on PCBs tothe industrial ] 6 h y g iene section of Chicago, and if that guy 1 7 was present, that's where he got the 1 8 inf ormation. 1 9 Q What is the c o n n e c t i o n between 2 0 Chi c a g o and T e x a s E a s tern? 2 1 A . I don ' t have the f o g g i e s t . 2 2 Q What is the basis for the 2 3 s tatement ? 2 4 A. It's in connection with the Great 2 5 L a k es study. We weren't studying Houston fcORE REPORTING COMPANY ., . ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI . ice; STLCOPCB4026477 1 Bay. 2 Q . Right. But now I'm referr I n g -- 3 the memorandum appears to be devote d to two 4 topics. The first -- 5 A . It's possible you're right 6 Q . The first topic appears to be a 7 discussion with ClaranceW. Klassen to 8 discuss the PCB problem which had b e e n 9 brought up at Lake Michigan State 1 0 Pollution, correct? 1 1 A . Yes. 1 2 Q. And the memorandum states that, "I 1 3 gave Klassen the general party line 1 4 concerning PCB, its industrial uses and its 1 5 analysis, " correct? ] 6 A. That's correct. 17 MR. PREUSS: That's one of the 1 8 things it says. 1 9 MR. TALLON : Thank you, Mr 1 2 0 Preuss. When you get the opportuni t y , I'm 2 1 sure you can redirect. In the mean time, 2 2 I'd appreciate your not continuing t o 2 3 interrupt. 24 MR. PREUSS: Well, I would 2 5 appreciate you not just pulling sen t e n c e s j j i j i Ii i i j i GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS , MISSOURI i c c. STLCOPCB4026478 1 out paragraphs . 2 MR. TALLON: When you want t o 3 examine the witness, you may do so. If you 4 h u v e a n objection, state i t . 5 MR. PREUSS: I ob jec t to th 6 q u e s t i o n as argumentativ e . 7 MR. TALLON: Th e other i s s u which 8 a p p e a r s to be addressed b y this m e m o a n d u m 9 is -- ] 0 A. You're correct, it's separat e d . 1 1 Q Is t h e q u e s t ion o f Texas E a s tern? 1 2 A . Corre c t . I t ' s s eparat ed . 1 3 Q Now, the q u e s t i o n , t h e r e f ore , and 1 4 I just want the record to be clear on this, 1 5 is, do you remember giving a response t o ] 6 t lie request from Texas Eastern which i s 1 7 referred to in this memorandum? 1 8 A. No. I do know the rest of i t very 1 9 well. 2 0 Q . The rest of it -- 2 1 A . The part about Klassen and the 2 2 Great Lakes study. 2 3 Q. For now I '' m g o i n g to f o c u s t h 2 4 questioning sole iy on t h e part r e 1 a t e d 2 5 Texas Eastern. |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI I 1 7 STLCOPCB4026479 1 A. No, I don't. ? Q. And do you know whether a response 3 was made by a Monsanto representative to 4 Texas Eastern, whether or not you made the 5 response? 6 A. I went to Texas with somebody for 7 something, and it had to do with fluids, 8 and I -- I wish I remembered. 9 Q. Do you remember where in Texas you 1 0 traveled to? 11 A. Houston. One of the big office 1 2 buildings in downtown Houston. ] 3 Q. And do you remember the names of 1 4 any of the people you met with? 1 8 A. No. I just remember that I got 1 6 sent down there, or called down there, and 1 7 went to -- hell, it could have been the 1 8 Humbel Building, I don't do know. It could 1 9 have been with Humbel Oil, which we had a 2 0 lot of dealings with. 2 1 Q. Do you remember approximately when 2 2 that visit was? 2 3 A. Probably in the '70's. And when 2 4 in the ' 7 0 ' s , I don't know. 2 5 Q . Do you remember with whom you GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI _ .. Hfl STLCOPCB4026480 i 1 traveled from Monsanto, if you traveled 2 with anyone from Monsanto? 3 A . No. 4 Q. Doyou remember a nything about the 5 visit to Houston other tha n you made it? 6 A. I'm afraid I've 1 ed you astray, 7 really, in a way. I went to Houston man y 8 times to talk to the Humbe 1 people and t o 9 talk to Shell technical pe ople. That wa s 1 0 before they moved a great many of them 1 1 out. And I knew those peo pie very well, 1 2 And we discussed a lot, in eluding fluids 1 3 and because they used them , too, in thei r 1 4 field groups, field equipm e n t r and I don ' t 1 5 know. The reason I get mi x e d u p wit h T e x a s 1 6 Eastern, my sister worked the r e and I w a s 1 7 in Houston one day and I s a w h e r , I went b y ] a and saw her in her office i n t h at da m n 1 9 building. Now, what was I doing there? I 2 0 don't know. So the best i dea is to say w e 7 1 don't know. Q. ;i I i- " ' from your answer that as 2 3 you sit here today and testify you don't 2 4 h h v < ,i r <. ] ] c c t i o n of having met with 2 5 representatives of Texas Eastern f or GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI i r; q STLCOPCB4026481 i 1 business purposes? 2 A . No. A clear one. 3 Q Okay. 4 A. Clear recollection. A clear 5 recollection. 6 Q. Well,when you use the word clear 7 in your response it makes me wonder whether a there is anything other than what you've 9 told me so far that you remember about a ] o communication with Texas Eastern 1 1 representatives? 1 2 A. T'm going to depart for a minute 1 3 and give you a five minute lecture of 1 4 something that you need to know that 1 5 chemical companies and technicalproducers ] 6 of hazardous materials did. They followed 1 7 what was called the DuPont rule. We did 1 8 not completely follow that rule, but to a 1 9 certain extent we did. And that is,you do 2 0 not tell technical information except to 2 1 technical people who are qualified to 2 2 understand it. That's DuPont's standard, 2 3 it's written intheir concrete. And we had 2 4 a hell of a time, because our plants 2 5 couldn't get information from DuPont. We I I GORE REPORTING COMPANY .. ST. , LOUIS, MISSOURI i 7 n' STLCOPCB4026482 1 could, but the plants couldn't, under that 2 premise, Because they -- their medical 3 people knew our medical people and knew we 4 knew what we were talking about and they 5 would send it to us. In respect to many 6 o i 1 companies, with the exception of 7 Standard Oil of New Jersey and Shell, we 8 didn't know if they had people who knew how 9 to deal with the data. And part of this 1 0 may have had to do with play on the phone, 1 1 finding out if Texas Eastern has got 1 2 t echnical people that 1 3 data. I ' m sorry , I ' m 1 4 Eastern, but you ' d be 1 5 the place s that they 1 6 began to follow g e n e r 1 7 premise. You t a lk a b 1 8 W h a I a T L V iS? 1 9 Q . Me? 2 0 A. Yes. 2 1 Q . Why don't you tell me? 2 2 A. It's a threshold limit value. 2 3 Does anybody know what MTD isand all these 2 4 other things? That's the point. How can 2 5 you give them this kind -- these kind of IGORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 1 71 STLCOPCB4026483 i 1 data, looking at the data we gave to some 2 of these people, TLVs, MTLs, LD 5 0 ' s , LD 3 100's, that sort of stuff. Now, if you 4 handed all that stuff out to somebody that 5 had no one to interpret it for them within 6 their staff would be foolish and we 7 wouldn't give it to them. And I'm afraid 8 n. .1 ybe that's what this represents. In 9 other words, to Clay,tangentially. I'm ] 0 saying do they have anybody there that 1 1 knows how to read it. ] 2 Q . tsitfairtosaythatasof 1 3 February 1970 your understanding was that 1 4 there were people at Texas Eastern who 1 5 didn't have information about the 3 6 constituent elements of Turbinol? 1 7 A. Telling them that we in the 1 8 medical department did not know if Texas 1 9 Eastern had people in their Houston place, 2 0 wherever they were going to get it, that 2 1 could interpret properly, or we'd send 2 2 somebody down that could for them. That's 2 3 the whole point. 2 4 Q. is it fair to say that the last 2 5 paragraph of your memorandum on the bottom j j | j j \ l j \ [ GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 1 72 STLCOPCB4026484 1 of page 1 of the memo, top of page 2 2 7 f f i t- r 1 : your understanding that Texas 3 Eastern lacked the information referred to 4 in t!i m i paragraph? 5 A . Absolutely not. 6 Q . There is no indication from this 7 memo that Texas Eastern had that B information, is there, Mr. Garrett? 9 A. No. But we and Pappageorge and 1 0 Howard Bergen worked together. We knew 1 1 handing raw toxicity data, uninterpreted, 1 3 to some people was foolish and dangerous. 1 3 That it would be easier to go explain to ]. 4 them, if they had no one who could explain 1 5 it to them. And many people didn't have 1 6 these kind of people on their staff. I 1 7 don't even know, if I'd have been running 1 8 Texas Eastern, if I would have had them on 1 9 the staff. Why would he do it? They're 2 0 transmitting materials, they have a hundred 2 1 or two materials to be worried about, not a 2 2 zillion like a chemical company. But we 2 3 were asking the question, probably, to 2 4 P a p p a g e o r g e and B e r g e n , hey, s h o u 1 d w e d o 2 5 this or s h o u 1 d w e w a i t until w e ' v e got t h GORE REPORTING COMPANY . ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI , 17 3' STLCOPCB4026485 1 t h i ng interpreted with the results of some 2 a 8 c i i i o n a 1 studies before we do it. It's 3 str ange that I didn't state in there why 4 d n [: ' i we send somebody there to go with you 5 t o see Texas Eastern, to make sure they 6 k M'.' w vital we're talking about. Because 7 mis understood toxicity data has got - oh, 8 m y goodness, we've even been in court suits 9 o v e r it, violation suits over it, 1 0 m i s understanding of the numbers, and what 1 1 the letters, all the LD 5 0 ' s and that sort 1 7 n f stuff mean. So we knew better. I 1 3 did n't know what it meant when I came to 1 4 r. t . I.nuis . ]8 MR. PREDSS: Wait for a question, 1 6 M r . Garrett. ]7 MR . TALL0N : Other than throu g h m y 1 8 des p t i o n this mo rning, are you fami 1 i a r 19 w: t 20 r a n s w e stern P ipeline Company? f^ ' . N o . Other than knowing that it ' s 21 a g piper on the -- going west out o f 2 2 SOU thwest Texas. 2 3 o , And I t a k e i t from that a n s w e r 2 4 you ' v e never c o m m u n i c a ted w i t h a n y 2 b rep l e s i n t a t i v e o f t h e Trans w e s t e r n Pipeline GORE REPORTING COMPANY . ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI _ 1 7 41 STLCOPCB4026486 1 Company? 2 A . No. That is not -- that's 3 incorrect, it's possible that I did, but. I 4 dicin'l recall it. 5 Q . You don't have a recollection as 6 you sit here today? 7 A. I don't have a recollection, 8 that's right. 9 Q. You testified, I believe, that you 1 0 didn't know who Mr. Clay was? ] 1 A . No. ]7 MR. PREUSS: Other than a Monsanto 1 3 employee. 14 MR. TALLON : Correct. 1 5 A. He must have been in St. Louis. 1 6 And I deduce that from the address after 1 7 his name. The address would have had 1 8 Houston on it if he was in the Houston 1 9 sales office, it would have had HOU on it. 2 0 Q . Is there any significance to the 2 1 fact that Mr. Bergen's name is listed first 2 2 as between Bergen and Clay? 2 3 A. Most likely Bergen was Clay's 2 4 boss. 2 b Q. During the '70's did you have a GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI ,,. 1 7R STLCOPCB4026487 1 p r a c tice with respect to keeping files or 2 peri odically destroying them? 3 A . W e p riodical 1 y d estroyed 4 c o r r espondenc files . Now -- and b e 1 i eve 5 m e , this led o one of u s reading most o f 6 t h o s e files, That was the biggest pain i n / the tail you' e ever s e e n , it took days t o 8 do i t , and p u 11 out what we knew as 9 1 i t e r a t u r e , a nd that we wanted in our 1 0 1 i t e rature fi le. And some of these kind of 1 1 1 e t t ers would go in the literature file 1 2 b e c a use it me ntions a company we had not 1 3 deal t with be fore in our view, that's Texas ] 4 Flast e r n . Oth erwise, it would have gone in 1 5 the junk or g one into the -- in the 1 6 s t o r age. ] 7 Q . I n y our answer when you used the 1 8 term s "we" an d "our" to refer to the fact 1 9 that we had n ot dealt with Texas Eastern, 2 0 you' re referr ing to the medical group? 2 1 A . That 's right. 2 2 Q. Base d on your understanding of the 2 3 way that file s were maintained at Monsanto 2 4 in F ebruary 1 970, where would a written 2 5 requ e s t from Texas Eastern have been ! ! i GORE REPORTING COMPANY . ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI , i a' STLCOPCB4026488 1 maintained? 2 A . It probably would have been in the 3 correspondence file o f Howard Bergen, and 4 it';; probably been de stroyed long since, 5 since Howard's been g one many years. 6 Q. In the '70's , how long did you 7 keep your files, if y ou had a regular 8 practice? 9 A. Don't laugh, but when we couldn't 1 0 get anything else in the file it was time ] 1 to strip fil.es. And we had a bank of 1 2 files, and Monsanto h ad some kind of ] 3 something in their ea r that irritated them 1 4 about those files. A nd these people threw 1 b away most of our file s, lawyers, anyway, 1 6 just from pure orneri ness of lawyers, and 1 7 then they give us hel 1 because we couldn't 1 8 find things they thre w away. He's just 1 9 representing other pe ople, but our own 2 0 lawyers did that. I think what you mean is 2 ] how long are correspo ndence files held? 2 2 Q. Sure. 2 3 A. How long are data files held? 2 4 Correspondence files, probably a couple of 2 5 years, depending on t he subject and I |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI I 1 *7 *7 I STLCOPCB4026489 I 1 depending on the individual that wrote it. 2 He may have wanted them because he's still 3 dealing in the same ball park. If it was a 4 data file letter or one of importance that 5 we felt brought up a new subject we may 6 have kept it in the data file. And 7 Monsanto does have a red book. 8 Q. A red book? 9 A. A red book. 3 0 Q . What is a red book? 1 1 A. File clearance book, instructions 3 2 on clearing files and keeping them cleared. 1 3 Q. Was such a book in existence in 1 4 1 97U? 3 S A. If it was, I never saw it. 1 6 Q . When was the first book put into 1 7 use, as best you recall? 1 8 A. I saw them back in the late ' 7 0 ' s, 1 9 the first book c am e out. 2 0 Q . Did there come a time during the 2 3 course of your career at Monsanto when 2 2 files relating to PCBs were collected? 2 3 A. I think every one of my files were 2 4 collected at least a thousand times for 2 5 court suits of one kind or another. No, GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 17 0 STLCOPCB4026490 1 that ' s not -- and I got them back. usually 2 in very disorderly arrangement . 3 Q Was there ever a particular focus 4 1 h a t y o u recall in the collection of files 5 relating to PCBs? 6 MR. PREUSS: I'll object tothe 7 form. What do you mean by focus? 8 A. I think they did pick them up for 9 PCBs . But I ' m s a y i n g aim o s t yes, b u t I ' m 1 0 not really - - they "t o o k s o many b a c k i n l 1 the late '7 0 ' s and e a r 1 y ' 8 0 ' s that I can't 1 3 7 t >1 1 iy say. I real iy can ' t say. 1 3 Q. Do you know who was in charge of 1 4 ihr- collection process? 1 5 A . Well - - 1 6 MR. PREUSS: Do you know who was 1 7 in charge of the collection process? ] 8 A. There is a whole number of people 1 9 that have been in charge. But the problem 2 0 -- we're getting mixed up with the red 2 1 book. You're talking about clearance of 2 2 files, just to keep the file cabinets down, 2 3 came because of the legal implications of 2 4 many of our files. And we asked the law 2 5 department to help peel files in response j j (GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI i -7 r\ STLCOPCB4026491 i 1 to the red book demands, because of what 2 they wanted or didn't want. And we'd keep 3 what they said, yes. And it got to the 4 point where they didn't -- their enthusiasm 5 for coming over and going through our files 6 turned out to be zero or minus numbers. 7 But we did some of it. I think every 8 company has been in the same ball game, 9 what do you keep, what don't you keep, and ] 0 particularly in the medical and industrial 1 1 hygiene occupational safety business. I 1 2 don't know. 1 3 Q. Do you recollect the names of any 1 4 of the people whom you remember to be 1 5 i n v o 1 ved with the process of collecting the 1 6 filesrelatedtoPCBs? 1 7 A . No. ] B Q . Do you know who L.A. Watt is? 1 9 A. Watt, W-a-t-t? 20 Q. Yes. W-a-t-t. 21 A. No. Either no or I don't recall. 22 MR. PREUSS: If you're going on to 2 3 another subject, I'd like to take abreak. 2 4 (Recess) 2 5 (Transwestern Deposition Exhibit Number ! j j j j iI GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI STLCOPCB4026492 1 115 mark'd for identification). 2 MR. r A L L 0 N : I've asked the 3 reporter to mark as Exhibit 115 a d < r u m n t 4 bearing production numbers Tran 017181 5 through 183. Mr. Garrett, I would ask that 6 you please take a look at that and when you 7 have completed your review to indicate so. a MR. PREUSS: Would you like him to 9 read it all? ]0 MR. TALLON: Sure. Did you review 1 1 that document, Mr. Garrett? 1 2 A . Yes . 1 3 Q . Can you identify the document for 1 4 therecord? ] 3 A. I apparently wrote it, but I don't 1 6 -- I don't know when at all. 17 Q .The first sentence onthe first 1 8 page ofthe document states, and I quote, 1 9 "Current data indicates that PCB type r^ ' 2 0 materials may be more hazardous to working 2 1 personnel than had previously been 2 2 considered." You wrote that sentence? 2 3 A. Yes. 2 4 Q . Do you know what data is referred 2 5 to in that sentence? I l | j j j j | j i I j GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI i oi STLCOPCB4026493 1 A . Some additional data on airborne 2 contaminants from other exposures, not from 3 us . 4 Q. What was the source of that data? 5 A. I b e 1 i e v e it was -- i t came; r i o m 6 0 t r ip t h a t w a s mad e to Europe a n d s o m e o f / the d i s c u s s ion with the Europea n s , and 8 particularly the Dutch, and the use of 9 these materials. ) 0 Q. I'm sorry, what was the end of 1 1 your sentence? Particularly the Dutch 1 2 and -- ] 3 A. In connection with use of these 1 4 materials. 1 8 Q . I).id icpresentatives of Monsanto 1 6 make that trip to Holland, or wherever in 1 7 Europe it was made? 1 8 A. It would have been the case, most 1 9 likely. I can't be absolutely sure. 2 0 Q. Were you one of those who went to 2 1 E u rope? 2 2 A . No. 2 3 Q. Was Dr. Kelly -- 2 4 A. I've been in Europe, but not in 2 3 t h .is c a s e . i j j ! i j ! I ! i GORE REPORTING COMPANY . . , ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 1 oo STLCOPCB4026494 1 Q . In connection with this 2 A. It could have been Dr. Kell y , it 3 could have been anybody. It could h a v e 4 been someone else. 5 Q. It could have been some of the 6 people in the product group? 7 MR . PREUSS : He asked i f u 8 knew. 9 A . No, I don't know. 10 M R . TALLON : What was t h 1 1 information or the i mport of th e data? 1 2 A. I don't recall. 1 3 Q. Do you recall what about th e new 1 4 data indicated that there was a chan g e or a 1 5 greater indication of hazard than ha d 1 6 previously been believed? ] 7 A. That's what it says. 18 Q . Right. Do you know what it was 1 9 about the data that was different? f^ ` 20 A. No. But it had to be somet h i n g 2 1 connected with it being toxic in som e form. 2 2 Q. Can you be more specific th a n 2 3 that? . 24 A. No. Because I don't recall i t . 25 Q . The document is not dated. Do you j iI I GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 1 OO STLCOPCB4026495 1 believe that this is a document that you 2 pit pared in the regular course of your work 3 for Monsanto? 4 A. It may have been part of a report 5 or may have been an additive for letters 6 written connected with it. 7 Q . Was either of such preparations 8 within your regular course of work for 9 Monsanto? 1 0 A . Yes. ] 1 Q. And you intended the information 1 2 inheretoberelieduponbyits ] 3 recipients? 1 4 A . Ye s . . ] 5 Q. The paragraph goes on to read, 1 6 "Based on these facts, the control of 1 7 exposure ofworkers where PCBs are 1 8 manufactured or used should be re-examined 1 9 and made more restrictive." You wrote 2 0 that? ' 2 1 A . Yes. 2 2 Q . Do you recollect the restrictions 2 3 to which you were referring in that 2 4 pa i .kjj dph and in that sentence? 25 A. Idon't know. I don't know j i i j f j i j | j j j j i j GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI - .. 1 4 STLCOPCB4026496 I 1 exactly what -- we t urned around right 2 below it and put down the standards, 3 Q. Right below it, are you referring 4 to the next sentence? 5 A . Right below that statement we say 6 "Currently, the Ameri can Conference of /' Governmental Industri al Hygienists shows" 8 thus and so. 9 Q. And the para graph concludes that 1 0 "Very limited analysi s in the aroclor 1 I department indicates that the airborne 1 2 concentrations are be low these numbers," ]3 c o ! oect? 1 4 A. That's right 1 E> Q. Do you remem ber whether the new 1 6 data suggested to you that the American 1 7 Conference of Governm ental Industrial 1 8 Hygienists standard w as too high? 19 A. No. I don't know. I t may have 2 0 indicated that it was p o s s i b 1 e they would 2 ]. reduce it, but I don' know. I don ' t know 2 2 what occasioned that a r t i c u 1 a r s e q u e n c e of 2 3 sentences . 2 4 Q . Are you a b 1 e t o judge the 2 5 approx i m a t e date t h a t you wrote this memo | GORE REPORTING COMPANY S T LOUIS, MISSOURI i o r~ STLCOPCB4026497 1 by the re ference to the particular 2 t h t t :; h < < 1 d limit values referred to in the 3 first par a g r a p h ? 4 A . T would suspect sometime in the 5 mid ' 7 0 ' s 6 Q And whal is that suspicion based 7 on? 8 A . The- location and the time the 9 ACGIH cam e out w i t li their s 1 a n d a r d s . 1 0 Q When did the ACGIH come out with 1 1 its stand a r d s ? 1 2 A . Tt was in 1971 or '12. 1 3 Q Is the ACGIH still in existence ] 4 i (> 11 , i y ' so far as you know? 1 5 A . Yes. 1 6 n . Do you know where the ACGIH is 1 7 headquart e r e d ? ]. 8 A . Well, it is an organization made 1 9 up of gov e r n m e n t a 1 hygienists, and it was f^ M 2 0 head q u a i t e r t- d in Cincinnati at one time. I 2 1 think tod ay it -- I don't know that it - 2 2 that the ACGIH still has the TLV 2 3 committee s, I think that OSHA has them, and 2 4 they took -- the ACGIH standards had their 2 5 beginning when OSHA began putting out the I GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI i pP STLCOPCB4026498 1 standards as federal law, and they used 2 ACGIH standards initially. And as is the 3 case, they change them when there seems to 4 be evidence that they need changing. 5 Q. Is the ACGIH a membership 6 organization, or was it? 7 A. It is a membership organization. 8 One restriction, you have to be a 9 governmental employee. Now, that's the 1 0 broadest application. The university 1 1 people and that sort are considered 1 7 governmental employees. But no industry 1 3 and no direct regulatory people could be. But, otherwise, it is a membership affair, ]4 1 5 youpayduesandeverything. 1 6 Q . I want to refer you to page 3 of 1 7 that exhibit, and in particular to the ] 8 caption "Environmental Contamination." Do 1 9 you see that? 2 0 A. Yes. 2 1 Q. The document states that "We would 2 2 recommend that all means be exercised, 2 3 pi t Iim [Brough engineering changes or 2 4 through work practice changes to minimize 2 h p ri v i i c n mental releases, either by air, j I j ii 1 ij ; j | i j j 1 | I | I (GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI i on STLCOPCB4026499 1 wat er or through solid residues." And it 2 g ci e (i ' o saythat, "In short, wewould 3 r e c ommend that all means within the limit, s 4 0 f p rn hMi; i r feasibility be utilized to 5 1 i m it releases of these materials into the 6 cnv i " Do you see that? 7 A . Yes. 8 Q. You wrote that? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q.Who is the "we" referred to? 1 1 A. Monsanto. 1 2 Q. And what was the basis for the 1 3 r e c ommendation that all me* a ns bo o x e i e i s e d 1 4 t O in i n i in j z r environmental releases? 1 5 A. Obviously, there wassome data 1 6 pro duct'd somewhere, and that is -- and 1 7 t h a t sentence, or that paragraph is suit of 1 8 S 1 cl n d a i d boilerplate for use in -- we 1 9 s h o uld always, in a material, reduce it. to 2 0 t. h p economic - to the engineering degree 2 1 w e can with an economic reality. They 2 2 she uld do .it to everything, and we did at 2 3 Mon santo. 2 4 Q. You should do it to everything? 2 5 A. Everything, that's true. I i j i j j i | GORE KErOh'T.iNG COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI . ? no STLCOPCB4026500 i 1 Q All m a t e r i a 1 s ? 2 A . A1 1 ma t rI i a 1 s . 3 Q Not j u s 1 t l> X i r meterin'1 s ? 4 A . W c 3 it , t Ii a t a rc foreign to the body 5 itself. That's probably in the indiisiiial 6 h y g i f ii .i s t ' s prayer. 7 Q . Do you have knowledge o f f. h e 8 C h v .i I c.) n mental caution suggested b y t h 9 paragraph of that exhibit ever being 1 0 rnmiii unicated to either Texas Eastern or 1 1 Transwestern personnel? ] 2 A. It's been published in the 1 3 published literature. 3 4 Q . H It c ii ? . 3 5 A. I don't know. Probably numerous 1 6 times. But it has been published and there 3 7 hav;. !>?(. u publications, a number of 1 8 publications covering contamination of 3 9 nun- soluble material such as the PCBs and 2 0 fluids of that type on the ground and in 2 1 waterways and in the marine environment and 2 2 so forth. 2 3 W h e n was the firs t t i m e that such 2 4 o n w a s p u b 1 i shed? 2 5 W e d i d some work that was never GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 1 QQ STLCOPCB4026501 1 b1 i s hed -- or someone d i d some work I 2 w that was never publis h e d , and the wo r k 3 s with f i s h, and becaus e t h e bo t t o m s w e r e 4 not -- natural bottoms, there was nothin g 5 happened, the stuff is too heavy and too 6 non-soluble to do anything at all. Furth e r 7 down the line there were some elegant 8 studies done about fluids, chlorinated 9 fluids that were non-soluble in water or 1 0 essentially non-soluble in water, which 1 1 means they could be partially soluble, bu t ] 2 there is so little that you can't prove i t , 1 3 what their effect had on aquatic marine 1 4 environments. . ] 8 Q. And were those studies published 1 6 A. Yes and no. They were published 1 7 in -- many of them were published in the 1 8 literature, in the fish and wildlife 1 9 literature, biological literature. Some o f 2 0 them were published by agencies. They're 2 1 considered published, but the government 2 2 laboratories, biological laboratories who 2 3 do their pollution technical work publish a 2 4 lot of stuff in their own publications. 2 8 Q. When you're referring to fish an d GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISS OUR I STLCOPCB4026502 i 1 wildlife publications, what are you 2 f f' f f ' : ' l i tj 3 A . Fish or biology technical 4 publications. b Q . And when is the first time that 6 you recollect seeing a publication in a 7 t i s h and wildlife publication relating to 8 PCB toxicity? 9 A. To my knowledge, the first one I 1 0 ever saw was a California report written 11 b a < > ; 11 ' s sometime. 1 2 Q . Do you recollect the n a m e o f I h e 1 3 j on i na 1 n i publication? 1 4 A . No. 1 3 >. Do you remember the name of the 1 6 author or authors? 1 7 A . No, i don't. 1 8 Q. Do you remember anything ai all 1 9 about the publication to which you've 2 0 referred? 2 1 A. If T had my literature files I 2 2 could, but I don't. 2 3 Q . And whore are thoseliterature 2 4 files today if they exist? 2 3 A. Very likely in Monsanto's just> GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI iqi STLCOPCB4026503 1 incinerator. But I don't know where they 2 r) r I 3 n. ''<u had testified a little bit 4 earlier today that Monsanto used Industrial h Rjotest for toxicity work, is that correct? 6 A . That's correct. 7 Q . Through what period of time did 8 you use Industrial Biotest? 9 MR. PREUSS: Did Monsanto use? 10 MR. TALLON: Yes. ] ] A. I don't know, because I didn't do 1 2 it, the toxicology people did it. 1 3 Q. Who are the toxicology people to 1 4 whom you are referring? ] 8 A. In . Hunt, who is now deceased. 1 6 Elmer Wheeler, who headed it, who is now 1 7 deceased. You're going to have a fun time 1 8 finding these people. I don't know that we 1 9 had any - I knew some of the people that 2 0 were in the biotest group, but weren't with 2 1 Monsanlo. Those are the people that dealt 2 2 with Biotest for Monsanto. 2 3 Q. I take it from your answer that it 2 4 was not part of your responsibility to deal 2b with R :i < i i i - : i l ? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 1 Q9 STLCOPCB4026504 1 A. I used the data. 2 ( T i a it s w .. .. f < i r, Deposition Exhibit Number 3 116 mark'd for idontiti'-.jMon). 4 MR. 'r A I, i, ON: Would you take a few 5 moments, please, and review i h a f , Mr. C Car'''!': 7 A . All right. 8 Q. Have you reviewed that document? 9 A . Yes. 10 Q. Can you identify it for the 1 1 record? ] 2 A. i i .i ' f ! ! i' j' Lo Elmer Wheeler 1 3 a b o u t P C B and E s c a m b i a B a Y n d the i n tn res t 1 4 t It e r i o i i i! c i nil 1 It o i i t i e s h a v e a b out i t . 1 5 Q . Did y o u auth o r t h a I (? .; 11 in < `ii t ? ] 6 A . T It .i s one, ye s . 1 7 Q. And that is a document that you 1 8 auilii.ii''! .n (he regular course of your work 1 9 at Monsanto? 2 0 A. Yes. 2 1 o. And you intended Mr. Wheeler to 2 2 rely on the information reflected in the 2 3 m e m o : a ml u m ? . 24 2 8 And the memorandum is written GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI i r> o STLCOPCB4026505 i 1 about a meeting or series of meetings in 2 August 1969? 3 A . Yes. 4 Q. And you wrote it on or about 5 August 26, 1969? 6 A. That's correct. 7 Q. There is a big blank space on I. he 8 1 i i s l page of the document, do you see 9 that? ] 0 A . Yes. 1 1 Q. Is there a reason why that's 1 2 there, or -- ] 3 A . 1 don ' L know. I have no i d e 1 4 don' t think t h e y blanked a n y t h i n g out 1 8 Q . Do y o u remember 1 e a v i n g a b i 1 6 whit e space in y our memo? 1 7 A. We could have had something pasted 1 8 in there on the original memo. It could 1 9 have been something pasted, but I don't 2 0 know. I would be more inclined to think 2 1 that there was something pasted on there. 2 2 Q . Mr. Preuss, are you aware of 2 3 whether or not t'h at white space constitutes 2 4 a redaction of some sort? 28 MR. PREUSS: I have no idea. I ; GORE REPORTING COMPANY . ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI i qd STLCOPCB4026506 1 MR . TALL0N : The mem o r a n d u m 2 W h e e 1 e r ref e r s to a number o f differ 3 p e o pie. In particular, there is a 4 ref erence in the second to last paragraph 5 o n the first page to John Spano. Do you see 6 t h a t reference? 7 A . Yes. 8 Q. And was he in the public relations 9 d e p artment of Monsanto in 1969? ] 0 A . Yes. 1 1 Q. Do you know what his position was? 1 2 A. He was assigned to the medical ] 3 ri t p . i * ! if ' L and others that I'm not -- I 1 4 can 't remember. But he was the P.R. man ] 8 t h i w t- used If we needed one. And he also 1 6 wen t through P.R. books and stuff that he 1 7 got that concerned us. 1 8 Q. Do you know whether Mr.Spano was 1 9 the author of Exhibit 111 which we looked 2 0 a t earlier today? 2 1 A. No,I don't. 2 2 Q The s a m e paragraph that refers t o 2 3 M r . Span o goes o n to refer to Tom Ford. Do 2 4 you r e c o 1 1 e c t who Tom Ford was and what his 2 8 P c> s i tion was in August 1969? |G 0 R E REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI STLCOPCB4026507 1 A . No, I do not. I don't remember 2 h i m <) 1 .ill. 3 Q. And do you remember who Sterling 4 Turner was? 5 A . No . 6 Q . What about Bill Richards? 7 A. I know Bill Richards. 8 Q . What was Mr. Richards' position? 9 A. He was in the technical support ] 0 group for this group of compounds for the 1 1 organic division. 1 2 Q. And what does the position of 1 3 being in a technical support group imply in 1 4 t o 7 in s . < r job function? 1 5 A. He did the research and (he 1 6 customer initiated materials for use. If 1 7 you had asked the company will this 1 8 material work in thus and so application. 1 9 Bill Richards' group would have tried it to ' 2 0 see. Okay? 2 1 Q . Do you recollect the circumstances 2 2 under which you wrote this memorandum? 2 3 A. No. I don't, really, recollect it 2 4 very well. I remember vaguely the incident 2 5 in the bay, in Escambia Bay. GORE REPORTING COMPANY . ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI i q a. STLCOPCB4026508 1 Q. What do you remember vaguely? 2 A. Well, that it was there, there was 3 an argument about shrimp catch in Escambia 4 Bay. And, actually, I think you'll find if 5 you find enough data from the State of 6 Florida that at the time there was a 7 reduction in shrimp catch all along the 8 Gulf coast from a freeze that had occurred 9 sometime before. 1 0 Q. Turn to page 2. In the top 1 1 paragraph there is a reference to -- I'll 3 2 read you the sentence. It says "We called 1 3 Mr. Dean and Mr. O'Leary severaltimes to 1 4 11 1 e o n what general a p p r o a c h Dean and 1 5 r n e r s h o u 1 d make to t h e state agencies . " ]. 6 y o u s e e t h a t ? 1 7 A. Yes. 1 8 Q And who is Mr . Dean? 1 9 A . I ha v e n ' t the vaguest . I'm sure 2 U worked with h i m , but I don't know who he 21 is . 2 2 Q . How a b o u t Mr. 0'Leary? 2 3 A ,. Nor M r . 0 ' L e a ry 2 4 Q . Are the Dean and Turner referred 2 5 to people other than Mr. Dean and Mr GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. . LOUIS, MISSOURI 1 Q7 STLCOPCB4026509 1 O'Leary or the same people? 2 MR. PREUSS: They have Mr. in 3 front of their names. 4 A . Excuse me. It is probable that 5 Dean and Turner were at the Pensacola 6 plant. 7 MR. TALLON: Your memo states, 8 "The general approach should be our 9 continuous cooperation with these agencies 1 0 and to answer their questions but not offer 1 1 a great deal of information or comment." 1 2 Correct? ] 3 A . Yes. 1 4 Q . Do you remember giving that 1 5 direction to the Monsanto employees who ] 6 were to meet with state representatives in 1 7 Florida? 3a A. We would have -- we would have 1 9 had no -- nothing against giving them any 2 0 information, had they wanted it or needed 2 1 it or had any way of using it. And our 2 2 greatest determination was what did they 2 3 want to use it for. We would test the 2 4 s h t m p for them if they wanted us to, or we 2 5 would have tested the fish. We did it for i ! j i j l ! I j GORK REPORTING COMPANY , ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI i an STLCOPCB4026510 1 many other states. So it seems cruel, but. 2 we didn't -- this stuff is extremely 3 technically screwed up, it requires a very 4 q r t . i ! ,t mount of work and equipment to 5 produce mists, and particularly mists of 6 fixed concentrations, measureable fixed 7 concentration, and that sort of stuff, or 8 to produce it in water. Because you're now 9 talking parts per trillion. And if they ] 0 wanted to test it, we would help them test 1 1 it, that's what I'm saying. But to do 1 2 that, it's very difficult to do, you have 1 3 to go through three reductions in volume 1 4 and very, very, very carefully to g e.t down 1 5 to those kind of -- ] 6 Q. You described the general approach 1 7 to the state agents as including not 1 8 offering a great deal of information or 1 9 comment, correct? 2 0 A. He had their report on shrimp, and 2 1 their discussion about the shrimp problem 2 2 elsewhere along the Florida Gulf coast. I 2 3 don't know that we needed anything else 2 4 from them, really. 2 8 Q. I'm referring now to the paragraph ] I l | I j (GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 1 QQ STLCOPCB4026511 i 1 n u mbered 1 on page 2 which describes your 2 P o s iti o n . Correct? 3 A . We could cooperate with these 4 cl IJ /' m r i ! ;; and do anything they wanted us to 5 do 6 Q . Pul not offer a great deal of 7 i n formation or comment, correct? 8 A. Unless we wanted them to 9 u n derstand something. Do they have people 1 0 t h at can do these things? What good would 1 i i t do to discuss the composition and the 1 2 m e thod of manufacture and all that sort of 13 s t uff, of PCBs, with somebody who doesn't ] 4 w a nt togo any furtherthan that? I don't ' 1 5 t h ink we would have limited our discussion 1 6 w i th them, let's put itthat way, no. 1 7 Q . Well -- 1 8 A . Whatever it says here. 1 9 Q. Paragraph 1 says, among other 2. 0 t h incjs, "The general approach should be our 2 1 c o ntinuous cooperation with these agencies 2 7 a n d in answer their questions but not offer 2 3 a great deal of information or comment," - 24 u ! - 2 5 A. Yes. j j I j 1 j i j j j | j ; i j ; I j j i GOR K REPORTING COMPANY .. ST. LOUIS, . MISSOURI n n r> STLCOPCB4026512 |; i! 1 Q. So it was part of your program 2 with the state officials not to offer a 3 great deal of information or comment, 4 t ight? b A . That's correct. That covers this 6 product, by the way, this group of 7 p I mlllCtS . 8 Q. Why don't we mark as 117 a single 9 page document bearing production number 1 0 Tran 022090. ] 1 (Transwestern Deposition Exhibit Number 1 2 117 mark'd for identification). 33 MR. TALLON: Can you identify that 1 4 document? 1 3 A . No . 3 6 Q Do you have any recollection of 1 7 seeing th at document befo re today? 1 8 A . No . 3 9 Q Do you know E.S. Tucker? 2 0 A . Yes. 2. 3 Q And who was Mr. Tucker in the 2 2 Monsanto world in Decembe r 1969? 2 3 A . Tucker was a man in a particular 2 4 group at Monsanto that so Id products to -- 2 5 that was one of the sales staff that sold t i i i | i j I 1 i GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 20 3 STLCOPCB4026513 i 1 some of the PCB products. 2 Q. If you turn to the upper 3 right-hand corner of the document, there 4 arc- a series of names there. Starting from 5 the bottom, E.P. Wheeler. 6 A . Yes. 7 Q . That was Mr. Wheeler for whom you 8 worked, correct? 9 A . Yes. ] 0 o . And does the designation "GO" 1 1 refer to general office? 1 3 A. That is correct. 1 3 Q. And W.R. Richard is the Rill ] 4 Kirhnrd to whom you referred previously in 1 5 testimony today? ] 6 A . v r. . 1 7 Q. And Mr. Keller you referred to 1 8 earlier in testimony today? 19 A. Yes. S. 2nd is South Second 2 0 Street laboratories . 2 1 Q. And who was Mr. Farrar in the 2 2 Monsanto world in December 1969? 2 3 A. I don't know. 2 4 Q. The memorandum is addressed to 2 5 J.T. Garrett and C. Paton, correct? i GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. . LOUIS, MISSOURI . ?02 STLCOPCB4026514 1 A . Yes . 2 Q. Is thatCumming Paton? 3 A. That's Cumming Paton. 4 Q. What was Mr. Paton' s position with 5 Monsanto in December 1969, as best you 6 recall? 7 A. He was, likewise, in that -- in 8 the aroclor peddling group, as I recall. 9 He's i.mi' of thetechnical people in the 1 0 aroclor sales management group. Okay? JI n . Thememorandum states that its 1 2 subject is " A r o c 1 o r -wildlife, NCR water 1 '! , 'hut? 1 4 A. Yes. ] F> n. on you know whether or not the 1 6 .letters NCR stand for National Cash ] 7 R g : ' 1' i ? j rj " r' , it is for National Cash 1 9 Register. 2. 0 Q. And did you do or did you 2 1 participate in toxicity analyses of 22 a r o 1 f < i s Tot - with reference t o your 2 3 customer. NCR? 2 4 A . Yes, 1 knew we were do i n g i t . 2 5 Q And is it t h e case t It a t N C R used GORR K K h O K TING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI . 203 STLCOPCB4026515 1 aroclor 1242 in carbonless carbon p n p f r '{ 2 A . Yes. 3 n . And is it the case that this 4 memorandum indicates that extract of wafer e> samples reflected parts per million of 6 aroclor 1242 found in those samples? 7 A . Yes. 8 Q . Do yourecall participating in 9 discussions at Monsanto about the ] 0 bio degradability of aroclor 1242? 1 1 A . Yes, I do. 1 2 Q . And what do you recall of those 1 3 discussions? 1 4 A . Thai wo had never seen much, 1 5 degradation. We had seen some- isomeric 1 6 r 11 a n rj ( :. . 1 '' . What do you mean in that response 1 8 when you use the word degradation? 1 9 A. Where the material, the chemical 2 0 compound lost its chemical identity as 2 l s 11 r ! i . v (i i, s,iy .it was 2,3 dichloro so and 2 2 so, it lost that identity. 2 3 > . When you stated that you did not 2 4 see much degradationof a roe lor 12 42, does 2 8 that indiiMle Hut 1242 tended to persist GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI ?n4 STLCOPCB4026516 ( 1 in its form as an aroclor in the 2 c n v i t uimiont? 3 A. That the material -- that the 4 material analyzed for was the b r h I urobiphenyl , that's the analysis, and it 6 was -- what.he said was the degradation of 7 these -- these samples represented that 8 chemical species, aroclor 1242, period. 9 Now, he said he didn't know about any other 1 0 degradation or anything else, didn't show 1 1 any evidence of biodegradation. 12 Q. And now I'm referring to -- I had ] 3 asked you whether youwere a participant in 1 4 any discussions at Monsanto about the. ' 1 3 degradability of aroclor 1242 and you 1 6 indicated that you had. In those ] 7 discussions, apart from the reference in 1 8 the exhibit that you're looking at, what do 1 9 you recall being said about the tendency of 2 0 1242 to persist in the environment? 21 A. Well, it's not verydegradable. 2 2 Q. Does that mean it tends to 23 pei s i s l ? ' 24 A. It tends to persist, yes. It 2 5 will, however, degrade. I i j | i ! ! j | i I |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI n n c; STLCOPCB4026517 i 1 Q. I'm sorry. It will? 2 A. It will, however, degrade. And we 3 f o und this out through studies in 4 C U imection with this same NCR effluent 5 Proc edure . 6 Q I'm s on-y, I didn't hear the end 7 0 f your answer . You found this out in a C (I li h < i I *i i'ii w 5 t h s t u d i e s -- 9 A . With NCR s t, u dies. 1 o Q F o r w hat pur pose were those NCR i l s tudies undertaken ? 2 2 A . Our o w n push n g NCR. W e were 1 3 1 n teres ted in what w a going -- what was 1 4 9 i n g t o happe n to t h NCR us e . And, of 1 5 c o u r s e , it was d i s c o n i n u e d . 1 a Q Why w ere you i n t e r e s ted in what 1 7 w a s g o i n g to h a p p e n w t h the NCR use? 1 8 A. Well, we did ' t want NCR to screw 1 9 u p the thing with bad data. And we knew 2 0 t h e y didn't know how to do the analysis, 2 1 f o r example. It's a complex electronic 2 7 m i croscope analysis . 2 3 Q. What were yo u concerned the 2 4 c o nsequences of NCR s crewing it up might 25 be9 GOR F K K I' 0 R T IMG COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 9 n f, I STLCOPCB4026518 I 1 A . NCR was worried that they w err- 2 going to lose the product because of that, 3 and so were we, but we wanted to make sure 4 when the data ca me in that i t was as 5 a c c u r ate as we could make it. An d we C b 1 y could analyz e the stuff better 7 a n y b ody else in the c o u n t r y . So B Midi's where it came from. 9 Q. But I think my question was what ] 0 w a Mi. . ; n , why were you concerned 1 1 that NCR would do the work itself and r n vi 3? it up? Why was that an issue? 1 3 A. Well, the issue was if you had as 1 4 hie 1 ' ' ' ' y had going on that paper 1 5 and it was such a commercial suer ess, how ] 6 f a t do y u u t h ink you w o u 1 d g 1 7 it? We sold the P C B t o t h e m ] 8 Monsanto was not i n the b u s i 1 9 to get rid of its products, but we were in 2 0 the business of trying to make sure those 2 1 products were handled properly and not 2 7 discharged willie-nillie into 2 3 anything -- 2 4 Q . D i d there come a time w h e n you m e t 2 5 with repres e n tatives of NCR to d i s c u s s t h e GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. , LOUIS, MISSOURI , 007 STLCOPCB4026519 1 toxicity of aroclor 1242 with those 2 representatives? 3 A . They k n e w t h e t o x icity of the 4 products from v i sits to St . Louis. 5 Q Do y o u recal 1 in particular a 6 meeting in 19 7 0 with r e p r e sentatives of NCR 7 to St. Louis? 8 A . There were severa 1 . It's 9 possible. 1 0 j. Let me show you - 1 1 A. I remember we had meetings wi t h ] 2 N C K , 1 o i ' p u ! i I that way 1 3 Q. Let me have markc d as Exhibit; 118 ] 4 n oi.o p .i .-j i document b e a r i n g production 1 5 number Tran 085272. 1 f ( T j d us we stern Deposition Exhibit Number 1 7 118 mark'd for identifi cation) . ]8 MR. TALLON : Does reviewing the 1 9 document marked a s Exhibit 118 refresh your 2 0 recollection as t o a meeti ng held with 2 1 representatives o f N a t i o n a 1 Cash Register 2 2 in St. Louis in J u n e 1970? 2 3 A . Yes. 2 4 Q. Tell us what you remember about 2 5 that meeting in terms of i ts purpose? I i I GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI -> n q STLCOPCB4026520 i 1 A . w e were p u s h i n g Cash t o move 2 to a n o t h e r -- t o a n o t h e r dye d i 1 u e n t 3 Q . T o another what? 4 A . Dye diluent. The material that -- 5 the aroclor was used as a diluent in the 6 dye capsule, in the encapsulated dye that 7 made the carbonless carbon paper by 8 exploding th e capsule with a key of the old 9 typewri ter . It wouldn't work today because ] 0 nobody types it in with a key . But the 1 1 problem was the thing was -- they were -- 1 2 we suggested they look for substitute 1 3 mate rial. And this was a discus s i o n o f 1 4 M I P B . Mon oisopropyl b u t a n e , M I P B . W e. did 1 5 not make that. We were. 1 ike t h e f o o 1 s 1 6 that we w ere, talki n g t h e m into g e t t i n g out 1 7 of our business. ] 8 o . W h a 1, was the p u r p o s e f o r y o u r 1 9 attendanc e a t the m e e ting w i t h t h o N C R 2 0 Tepresentatives? 21 A. I had been -- I had done some 2 2 work with NCR's people over at Hill Top 2 3 Laboratories in Cincinnati where they were 2 4 doingsometoxicologywork. 2 8 Q. What work was that? [ j i (GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 209 STLCOPCB4026521 1 A. I don't recall the specifics. 2 There was a lot of work being done on it by 3 everybody, including us, in their issue. 4 Now, you can imagine their enthusiasm 5 wasn't too high for this, so you can 6 understand some of the reasons for these 7 meetings. 8 Q. Do you recall what information was 9 furnished to National Cash Register ] 0 r presentatives at this meeting 1 1 concerning -- ] 2 A. Every bloody thing we had that 1 3 they didn't already have, which I can't 1 4 imagine there was very much. It could have 1 5 been some of this by electron scope 1 6 studies . ]7 MR. PREUSS: He asked if you 1 8 remembered. 19 MR. TALLON: And by electron scope 2 0 studies, you're referring to the exhibit 2 1 wh.icli discusses the biodegradability of 2 2 aroclor 1242? 2 3 A. That's right. In these low, low, 2 4 low concentrations. 25 MR. P R R ll S S : Number 117. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI oi n STLCOPCB4026522 s 1 MR. TALLON: Without reference to 2 the specific nature of the work being done 3 b y the NCR representatives at the Hill Top 4 1 o c ation, what was the nature of your 5 com munication or interaction with those NCR 6 rep resentatives? 7 MR. PREUSS: At this meeting or 8 any time? 9 MR. TALLON: I'm referring to the 1 0 wit ness's earlier statement about his 1 1 i n t eraction with NCR. 1 2 A. I went, at Dr. Kelly or Mr. 1 3 Whe eler and I can't remember whose request, 1 4 I w ent with the NCR people over to Hill Top 1 5 Lab oratories. Which, by the way, is a 1 6 p r i vate consulting toxicology laboratory in 1 7 C i n cinnati. Whether it is still there or 1 8 s t i 11 by the same name, I do not know. I 1 9 h a v en't heard about it in years. It is 2 0 p o s sible it's somebody else's name, that it 2 ] w a bought by one of these chain outfits. 2 2 But I don't know. They were there then. I 2 3 wen t to Hill Top with this NCR man, and we 2 4 wen t over some data that Hill Top was 2 3 w j t. h fish and other things . And they |G 0 R E REPORTING COMPANY . ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI I 71 1* STLCOPCB4026523 1 essentially proved what we proved, and that 2 was that the stuff was virtually 3 non-degradable under normal circums t a n c e s . 4 Q. Do you recollect the reaso n why 5 Dr. Kelly was to be present at the National 6 Cash Register meeting in June of 19 7 0? 7 A. Their doctor probably was there . 8 Q. And do you remember any 9 contribution that Dr. Kelly made to the ] 0 meeting? ] 1 A. Probably, yes. He told them to 1 2 get their butt out of the business. ] 3 Q. Do you remember any contribution 1 4 that you made to the meeting? i a A. Not with him there. 1 6 Q. Do you remember any contribution 1 7 you made to the meeting, whether or not he 1 8 was there? 1 9 A. The contributions were the 2 0 sampling that we had done for Tucker when 2 1 he was doing these tests, and we did some 2 2 sampling, and then we did some later, and 2 3 those -- the sampling showed that there 2 4 was between -- okay, now I remember. 2 3 We're talking about the Little Miami River, GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 9 19 STLCOPCB4026524 I 1 they're discharging into that. National 2 Cash, then it meanders down and injures the 3 Ohio at Miamisport, and we had done some 4 s ci i p 1 i n g along there. 5 Q. Were the results of that sampling 6 7 e ( I (' r l (. d in Exhibit 117? 7 A. Part of it was hern, yes. 8 Q. Do you recollect the results other 9 than as shown on Exhibit 117? 30 A. No, not really. It would be 1 1 trying to guess at some things that you mix ] 2 upin your mind, and I don't think I can do 1 3 that very well. ] 4 Q. Didyoueverhavedirect 1 5 communicationswith Soren Jensen in Sweden 1 6 oi nnyone working with him? 1 7 A . No . 3 8 Q. Do you know if Dr. Kelly did? 1 9 A. We conversed with him by letter at 2 0 the institute where he worked. And we did 2 1 it through the years, actually. I don't 2 2 know why the letters aren't in the files or 2 3 anything. I don't know. I did not do it, 2 4 F. l m f' r did it. He met him in a meeting in 2 5 London later, or during this period of time j i j | i I | I j i : j i j i i ! ; i |GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI STLCOPCB4026525 1 that this rukus was going on. And we asked 2 him seme questions, and his answers were 3 not translatable to American law and 4 regu.la.ti.on. 9 Q . Could you read that back? 6 (The requested portion of the 7 jt.'c. ord read by the reporter). 8 MR. TALLON: What does that mean, 9 Mr . Garrett? 10 A. Well, in some -- some countries 1 1 make you prove that things are bad. The 1 ? (in:i ted States does not, and never has. 1 3 Q . Howdidthatrelatetothe ] 4 discussions between representives of. 1 5 Monsanto and Mr. Jensen? 1 6 A. The fact that Sweden, for example, 1 7 was going to go ahead and use PCBs in their 1 8 electrical transmission and we were not, 1 9 because regulations were going to cause us 2 0 to stop it. 2 1 Q. Regulations were going to -- 2 2 A. To make us stop using 2 3 polychlorinated biphenyls in electrical 2 4 transmission or any electrical transmission 2 9 devices. j I 'i j j i l ; j j I j I i j I ! I i j i j j GORE REPORTING COMPANY ... ST. . LOUIS, MISSOURI . 914 STLCOPCB4026526 i Q . I g u ess I'm just not clear. How 2 did that disc ussion of the difference 3 bet ween the S wedish regulatory system and 4 U . S . regulato ry system figure in your 5 d i s cussions? 6 A . I n S w e den they were not going to 7 t a k e it out o f their transmission systems, 8 Q Why d i d you care? 9 A . Well r it seemed strange to us if 1 0 t li e y didn't b e 1 ieve that it was a hazard in 1 1 the ir electri c a 1 systems, why should we be ] 2 for ced to tak e it out of ours, 1 3 Q . Why w a s that a subject of 1 4 d i ;; (wssion wi t h Mr. Jensen? 15 . A. B e c a u s e he's the one who talked 1 6 a 1 1 of the t h i n gs into it. He was the one 1 7 t h a t started t h e PCB yahoo all by himself, ] 8 Q By y a h oo, you're referring to -- 1 9 A . His i s sue connected with finding 2 0 i t , which is n o t unusual in fish and so 2 1 for t h in the f i sheries along the Swedish 2 7 par t of the B a 1 tic Sea. And his is very, 2 3 v e r y excellen t work, incidentally, don't 2 4 I'm not c r i ticizing him at all, he's a 2 5 h e 1 1 of a goo d researcher in wildlife I II | GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI ? i q` STLCOPCB4026527 1 man agement, and that's what he was doing. 2 But what he did not understand was our 3 h e s itance or -- you know, we don't use 4 dir igibles in this country because they're 5 gas , that sort of thing. We do, but you 6 s h o uldn't do it because it's going to kill 7 p e o pie. It makes no sense to me. In other 8 W ! (Is, if it was hazardous, why the hell 9 w e r e they going to go ahead and use it. 1 0 Why was the technical man employed by the 1 1 v e r y government that was going to go ahead ] 3 a nd use it, and we were going to get rid of 1 3 i t and stop using it. It didn't make any ]4 . " 1 . 1 ' -- and finally 1 5 dec ided that it didn't make any sense, so 1 6 w c (eiii .In ' l 8n ri nylhing about it. 1 7 Q. So he couldn't do anything about 18 i t V ] 9 A. Nor could we. 2 0 Q. Did you play any role, Mr. 2 1 (7 a r * ! L, in the decision to withdraw any 2 2 Mon s anto product containing PCBs from the 2 3 m a r k cl for sale to customers? 2 4 A . We withdrew it, s o I would b e 2 3 p cl I J\./ jo sponsible, I wo u 1 d assume . How |G 0 R E REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 2 1 6! STLCOPCB4026528 i 1 indirectly, I don't know.Elmer would have 2 to la-, partly, Kelly would, I would. 3 Q. Were you part of any working group 4 who: 1 'lii subject of withdrawing PCB-based 5 products from the market was a subject of 6 d i s 1 . i (i 11 ? 7 A. We collectively were opposed to 8 this use. 9 Q . I'm sorry? 1 0 A. We were collectively opposed to 1 1 t hi s u e. 1 ' ' Q . This use referring to what? 13 A. Making carbon paper. I don't 1 4 b e I i i v i ov. were really opposed to any other 1 5 use, that I know of, that any of the ] 6 aro-'!oiwasputto. 1 7 Q. What was the reason for the ] 8 o p p o i ! i u n to the use of P C B s in the 1 9 manufacture of carbonless carbon paper? 2 0 A. The paper went in to all kinds of 2 1 dumps, it was soaked with water, material 2 7 war; carried out, flushed out, it wasn't 2 3 dissolved because it wasn't soluble, into 2 4 receiving streams. After ten years of this 2 5 you could find it all over the world, after j j j j ! ! i i i j j j j j j j j GO R K Ki: PORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI _ . .7 1 7 STLCOPCB4026529 1 we developed the method for analysis in 2 very in i ii u L e amounts. That's with the 3 scope, with the electron scope. 4 Q . I take it, then, that the concern that you've just described was that the f c B 5 6 component of the carbonless carbon paper 7 could enter the environment as a result of a lh( disposal of carbonless carbon paper? 9 A. You can't -- how do you dispose 1 0 of paper tja/bage? Burn it? Either way, we 1 1 release the PCB into the environment. 1 3 Either way. And it was getting so big, I 1 3 mean, everybody was using those things, 1 4 including the cop that gave you a ticket. 1 5 The point I make is that there were very ] 6 many fine uses of it that did not impinge 1 7 on the environment. This one was no 1 one 1 a o f l h o u 1 u s c S . 1 9 Q. If a PCB based fluid product leaks 2 0 out of a system, does that enter the 2 1 e ti v i r' n ii hi e ii t ? 22 MR. PREUSS: I'll object as an 2 3 incomplete hypothetical, insufficient facts 2 4 upon which to form an opinion. 25 A. That would be philosophizing. I j t i ; i iI j I j j I j i j j i 1 j j i j i ; I GOKP: h'liro K ting COMPANY ST. LOUIS, . MISSOURI 21 8 STLCOPCB4026530 ! m n ' 1 think it would do that. M p . TALLON: If a PCB fluid is 3 poured on the ground, is that in the 4 e 7i v i i i > n m e n t ? b MR. PREUSS: I object as 6 argumentative. 7 A. .1 don't know. Depends on where 8 the ground is, what you're talking about, 9 what l 11 v concentration is, what the PCB is, 1 0 what the other materials transported with ] 1 it nil. There is so many variablesin that 1 2 question I don't know how to -- we have 1 3 proven what we knew about this. 1 4 Q . Proven what you knew about 1242? ] 5 A. No, about using this paper. There 1 6 was nothing wrong with the paper itself. ] 7 There was never a single solitary claim of 1 8 anybody being hurt with it or with its 1 9 results. But we knew -- and heavy 2 0 chlorinated chemicals have a tendency -- 2 1 they're fat soluble and they have a 2 2 tendency to concentrate in fat. Fatty 2 3 animals would concentrate it if they got it 2 4 in their food chain, anyway. We found that 2 S on! ir.o studying these things. So in this j |I I [ | j i | j I | j I j l j i j | GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 2 19 STLCOPCB4026531 1 use , or in most of the uses that w e checked 2 t h iuuijIi wo did not find that ha z a r d 3 a s sociated with it. 4 Q . Did you participate in any 5 a n alysis undertaken by M o n s a n I < > o ft 6 d i t ! < ; i i: ' ways in which PCBs co uld enter 7 t h e food chain? 8 A . 1' O 1 h c- d ogre e that t h y were done. 9 b u t not all o f them. There c o Id have !.;(' n 1 0 III cl li a i . f t hem a one I k new no t h i g about, 1 1 Q. Did you participate in a n y such 1 2 fi I 11 ti v f ` -i yes. 1 4 Q And was it a part of that s i u d y to 1 b Cl v l i.- ( in ' n c liiiw " i: s entered the food chain 1 6 that included fish? ] 7 A . Well, T'm going to tell you 1 8 something that's strange. r n checking i'c B 1 9 in d n i, ' . n cj , Mild these are ---- this is 2 0 when we had these people up against t h e 2 1 wail, us and the Dutch, the Germans and the 2 2 French, there was more PCB in the 2 3 e ti v i i 11 11 (I. e 11 l than any of us manufactured, 2 4 total. Particularly true at times in sea 2 h cre-ninit:,. Now, we don't know how that i i GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 22 01 STLCOPCB4026532 j 1 happened, we haven't the foggiest notion 2 how u oh! <' ' i Mti t (' d compound, any kind, got 3 into those critter, but it did. Now - 4 MR. r REUSS : Try to answer his 5 question, Mr. -- 6 A . t ti (i t w pollof the reason, the 7 unknown, that we faced withit. 8 MR. T A 1. 1,0 N : PCBs are not 9 naturally occurring, correct? ] 0 A. No. We do not know if they are, .1 1 and we have never seen them except maybe we ] 2 h .i v ( ; i, , i cco c r e a t u r e s . We may have 1 3 seen PCBs generated in theenvironment ] 4 it:;.. M . ] S Q . hr! I circumstances are you 1 6 describing? ]7 A. When youproduce 40 million 1 8 gallons of stuff and the French produce 40 1 9 million y a 1 I o11 r and the Germans produce 40 2 0 million gallons andall of r it shows up and 2 ] more O f r ! h e r o d r lof -- Gulf coast of 2 2 Florida in fish, you know some thing is 2 3 wjory. Now, it was our opinion that 2 4 somehow there was a possibility, however, 2 b wc never could prove it, nor could we ever GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 22 1 STLCOPCB4026533 t 1 reconstruct it, that the material could, in ?. fact, generate; either that or a material 3 that gave the same reflections in very 4 high-powered analytical equipment. Okay? 5 Now, you don't know any more than you did 6 b f l 11 i t- and neither do we. Does it show in 7 the electron scope? And if so, what is it 8 s 11 i' w 5 11 rj in the electron scope? And you're 9 talking parts per trillion, and there is no 3 0 way y u ii ; n n get a piece of it and break it 1 1 up and look at it, it's too small. You're 1 3 l tying It. : mi 1 yze a teeny, teeny, tiny 1 3 piece, and you can't do it. We tried. We ] 4 m a s h < d up ft, . j Ii hri mp and enough other 1 5 creatures, you just couldn't do it. 16 Q Did hy s t udy u nd ertak en a 1 7 M o n s a n t o w h i 1 e y o u we rc c m p l o y d d b y 1 8 Moms.i i i 1 t. l o d e t e r m i n e t h e d i f f 1 9 ways. i f the r e w a s more t h a n o n e w a 2 0 PCBs null il tnier the food chain? 2 1 A. Yes. 2 2 Q . W a m l h e re one such study or mo r e 2 3 than one such study? . 2 4 A . T it o i i vJ 1 1 i MO v e r a 1 . W e found some 2 5 other strange things i n thos e s t u d i e s i n GORF K RPORTING COMPANY ., . . ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI u, -) e I STLCOPCB4026534 1 the Great Lakes. 2 MR. w K f: 11 H S : He just asked you if 3 there was more than one. 4 A . Y ( : ' I h < ; ( was. 5 MR. TAJ.LON : W h ! were ! ho 6 r n n r 1 11 :. < . r i luair studies, a s you recall 7 them, in describing how P C B s entered l tie 8 f o <) d r It ci i 11 V Avoid a discussion of them. There 1 0 was no other way. For example, we found ] 1 1 < > e much -- we found it coming out of 1 2 effluents where large -- we're talking ] 3 about huge dry cleaning establishments 1 4 were. There is no aromatic compounds used ] 5 in dry cleaning that anybody knows of, that 1 6 we checked. 17 Q. At o hi <) l i C ? 1 8 A. Yes. 1 9 Q. Are you referring to PCB 2 0 compounds? 2 1 A. I'm talking about aromatic 2 2 chlorinated compounds, and PCP is a. 2 3 r h l in 'i n,i i .-d - - is a biphenyl 2 4 chlorination. Biphenyl is two benzene 2 S rings s l u ck end to end, it is an aromatic. (GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI O O -3 I STLCOPCB4026535 1 Now, again, we're talking < - x t; < . < . d i n ij l y low 2 1 rv, ! : : ' p . .. !.,. ' pick up with 3 extremely d e 1 i c a ! > * : , 1 > ' > o n 4 n. ` , ' 1 '1 i i u reflection in 5 there that .i n t e r f e r e s ? If s o , we didn't 6 k II r. ur ! I p 1 pen ever participate in any 8 decision by Monsanto to withdraw pen based 3 fluid pnuliir! s from the market? 1 0 A . Yes . ] 1 Q. And what was your role in that 1 2 decision-makingprocess? ] 3 A. We refused to sell it tosome tile 1 4 makers and to a preformed insulation ] f> rii a n u f a ' I u r e r . 1 6 Q . Wh en? 1 7 A. Ithadtobeinthe'70's 1 8 sometime. ] 9 Q . The early 1 7 0 ' s or late ' 7 0 ' s or 2 0 mid ' 7 0 ' s ? 2 1 A. i don't know. I just don't know. 2 2 Q. What was your role in that 2 3 process? . 2 4 A . I We nt to check their facilities 2 5 to see if they were going to protect their I !! iI I 1 j j i j \ j I j ! j ! j j j i j |G 0 R E REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI STLCOPCB4026536 1 e m ployees, and the facilities were 2 t v r i ; 11 ; . . h e glass fibermanufacturer 3 t h at we checked, the preformed insulation 4 m a 11 11 f h r i i, i , r refused to do anything about 5 i t , and he was cooking them in ovens, drop 6 1 r (i n i / r you know what I mean, and 7 t h e workers were pulling the oven open and 8 d 7 upping i t ri n (1 that whole gang of 9 d e composition products and so fori h i-ame 1 0 T i yht riu! in the worker's face. And I told 1 1 t h em no, we would not, unless they change ] 2 i 1 , and they wouldn't change it. We 1 3 r e fused to sell it to them. 1 4 Q. Did you play any role in 1 5 c o nnection with decisions made at Monsanto 1 f. C. n ncerning the phaseout or discontinuance 1 7 O f sale of Turbinol? 1 8 A. Turbinol didn't discontinue. Its 1 9 b a se, chlorinated hydrocarbon, 2 0 d i sappeared. The aroclor backing, that 2 1 t h ing was stopped, it wasn't the Turbinol 2 2 t h ing that stopped. It was the aroclor 2 3 t h at made it. 2 4 Q. Turbinol continued to be sold 2 5 u n der a different formulation? jG 0 R E REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, -MISSOURI | STLCOPCB4026537 i 1 A. No. Not to my knowledge. They 2 could have been, but I didn't know it. 3 When they took the PCB out of it they 4 j f rn <, . . 3 from it the property that was most 5 attractive to that as a turbine fluid. 6 Q. What property was that? 7 A. Fireproof or fire resistance. And 8 t III' 1 U h i icity in a fire- r e sis 9 Q 1 0 pin, I.,, i And was t h e r e a s u b s A . They ' re r u n n i n g t u r b 1 2 Q I mean. d i d Mon s a n t o 1 3 subsli Lute product? 1 4 A. We tried, but we didn't come up 1 h wilii i l , no. Not to our opinion. 1 6 Q. Who do you know that was involved 1 7 in lhe procedure of attempting to develop a 1 8 substitute product? ] 9 A. Well, my own knowledge, the f` 2 0 chemical industry. You got a market, 2 1 here's an opening, all the people are going 2 2 to scramble into that opening and try to 2 3 produce a product. I don't know who did, I 2 4 couldn't even tell you. All I know is that 2 5 somebody tried, because we tried. But the GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI STLCOPCB4026538 1 I! min ute it went out, everybody in the world 2 k n v w it in the chemical industry, that we 3 w e r e pulling out of the PCB business. So, 4 ban g, they started looking at our product 5 1 i n e and everybody was trying to -- I 6 don ' t blame them. I'm sorry. This is our 7 old eat and eat and grab business world, a M y point is, you people still have turbine 9 flu ids even when we quit makingTurbinol. 1 0 And somebody filled that void. And they 11 w o u Id do that anyway. I don't know which 1 2 one s. I'm sure we tried. But that just 1 3 was one of those things. ] 4 Q. I take it, though, from your 1 5 a n s w e r that y o u d i d n ' t h a v e any direct 1 6 par tic i p a t i o n in the p r o c e s s o f attempting 1 7 t o dev e 1 o p a s u b s t i t ute f 1 u i d ? i a A. We tested -- 19 MR. PREUSS: He's talking about 2 0 you 2) We tested some of them that's 2 2 all 23 MR . TALL0N : I'm question! ow 2 4 w h e t h e r you persona 1 1 y were involve 25 A . I knew it and helped write e of feORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI j STLCOPCB4026539 1 the stuff on the test products. 2 Q. Write what stuff on the test 3 products? 4 A .. The res u 1 t s of the t 0 xicology 5 tests . And the res u 1 t s , mo r e importantly. 6 of the degradati o n , f ire t e s t s and so forth 7 of the product .itself, the material. They a had i <3. 1 substitute materials they were 9 trying to sell. 1 0 f) . Do you remember the components of 1 1 those substitute materials? . 12 A . Absolutely not, none of them. But 1 3 none of them contained any chlorinated ] 4 hydrocarbons. ]. b Q. Do you know the period over which 1 6 you participated in this testing process? 17 A. No. Because we were facing the 1 8 whole PCB withdrawal business, you see. ] 9 We're looking at a heck of a lot better -- 2 0 bigger markets than just Turbinol fluid 2 1 markets. And we didn't do too well in any 2 2 of them, frankly. We do make a lot of 2 3 fluids today, basically, of component 2 4 fluids, or did, but they're not anything 2 5 like the chlorinated materials. | j j 1 j | i| GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI STLCOPCB4026540 1 Q Do you have a reecollection of when 2 a t t e m p t s began to fin d a substitute fluid? 3 A . Probably in the late '70's and CD O 4 near s . When it was absolutely 5 e s s e n t i a .1 , it looked like we had no chance 6 of co ntinuing to produce PCBs of any kind 7 for a ny reason. 8 MR. TALLON I'd like to take a 9 few minutes. 1 0 (Recess). 11 MR. TALLON: Just a couple more 1 2 quo:, t "> .in , M 7 . Garrett. When you referred 1 3 earlier in your testimony to a red book ] 4 concerning document retention policies, was 1 5 the book red? 1 6 A . It h a d a red cover . The first one 1 7 had a red c o V e r , that ' s where i t got the 1 8 name red book. I think the third one had a 1 9 green cover, actually. And it was a -- 2 0 the people -- it was a desperate try to 2 1 keep from putting so many files out there 2 2 that the whole thing sank. And what 2 3 happened -- 24 MR. PREUSS: He just asked you 2 5 what the color was. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI STLCOPCB4026541 1 A. They said what d o you get out. how 2 ou get it out. and the red one was the 3 first issue. 4 MR . TALL0N : Is that the k i n d 5 i n s t r u c t i o n a 1 manual that stat e s w h e n 6 certain kinds of doc uments can b e 7 destroyed? 8 A. And when -- which ones to store 9 and which ones to dump, yes. 1 0 Q . Was there a particular section of 1 1 the red book. a s you recall it, that 1 2. r i.: ] a t e d to y o u r d e p a r t m e n t ? 1 3 A . N o . I t was general , related to 1 4 1 he use of the document and what use was 1 5 made of it initially and how many documents 1 6 there were out. ] 7 Q. You said that your birthday was 1 8 January 12th, but in what year were you 1 9 born? 2 0 A . 1 9 2 3. 2 1 Q You indicated that yo u d i 2 2 e r a c t personally with Indus t r i a 2 3 test. is that correct? 2 4 A . No, I did not. 2. 5 Q You did not interact p e r s GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI STLCOPCB4026542 1 Did you receive test results from 2 1 ti d VI filial Biotest? 3 A . We did and I saw them. And r got 4 if I wanted some done, I could get them 5 done 6 Q. Did you have tests conducted by 7 I n d u strial Biotest? a A. In a couple of instances I 9 i n i t iated the need for it, yes. 1 0 Q . Do you remember the scope or 1 1 n a t u re of the tests that you requested ] 7. Indu strial Biotest to perform? 1 3 A. This was -- both cases was what ] 4 w a known then as chronic tests, and these 1 5 were oral chronic tests. 1 6 Q . Oral chronic tests? 1 7 A. Yes. ] 8 Q. For what toxin? 1 9 A. I don't even remember what, the 2 0 m a Lc i i a 1 s w ere . 2 ] Q. When, in your answer of a moment 2 2 ago. you said that we used Industrial 2 3 Hi ot e s t -- 2 4 A. The department. 2 5 Q. Your department? GORE REPORTING ' COMPANY ST. . W^e . . LOUIS, MISSOURI -b 1 STLCOPCB4026543 1 A . Yes. 2 Q . Did Mr. Wheeler use Industrial 3 Biotest? 4 A . Ye::. 5 Q. Did Dr. Kelly have -- did Dr. 6 Kelly use Industrial Biotest? 7 A. Because of the cost. It was a 8 general agreement that it was needed by 9 pretty nearly all the professionals in the 1 0 department until it got too damn big. You ] 1 know, today you'd have to hold some kind of 1 2 a meeting and have ballot boxes, because it ] 3 takes a whole floor of one of the buildings 1 4 out there now. ] 9 Q. To your knowledge, did Mr. Wheeler 1 6 rely on data test results that he got from 1 7 Industrial Biotest? 1 8 A. And others. ] 9 Q. Did you ever question the validity 2 0 or reliability of test results that you 2 1 personally got from Industrial Biotest? 2 2 A . No. 2 3 Q. Do you know if anyone working in 2 4 your department questioned the reliability 2 9 oj validity of Industrial Biotest test i j | GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI STLCOPCB4026544 1 j r e s u Its? 2 A . You'd have to discuss that with 3 the toxicology people there now. Ask them, 4 I do n't know. b Q . Do you know that Industrial 6 Biot est was accused of falsifying test 7 r e s u Its? 8 A. Yes, I heard all about that. 9 Q. And do you know if that ] 0 f a 1 s ification related to tests upon which 1 1 Indu strial Biotest was working for . ] 2 Mons a n t o ? ] 3 A. I don't know. I just don't know. 1 4 Q. Who would know that information, ] b do y ou believe? 16 A. With Elmer dead and Kelly -- I 1 7 don' t think Emmett knew the particulars of 1 8 i t . He approved of doing some work on X 1 9 comp ound, and Elmer would feather it out 2 0 and put it in the labs. Now, we have done 2 1 tox a lot o f other 1 a b o r a t o r i e s , too r 2 2 don' get m e w r o n g , we did n't o n 1 y use t h 23 then eve n . And so we ' v e done t o X work i 2 4 Euro P e . 28 MR. PREUSS: He's just asking if GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI STLCOPCB4026545 1 you know who would know about it 2 That's the reason all of the stuff 3 was one at Ind u s t r i a 1 B i o t e s t i s what 4 1 ' Hi 5 wer 6 7 Whe g to say. All the chronic t e s t s done at In dustrial B i o t e s t MR. TALLON : Other than Mr n d Dr. K e 1 1 y , were there o t h o r s 8 w i i ( i; . : d know of today who would -- 9 A . No. The one that might know is 1 0 d t . i (l; nr. Hunt, William Hunt. 1 1 Q. When you learned of the 1 2 f rl I s i I ication of data by Industrial 1 3 Bio test, did that cause you to call into 1 4 que stion the results of any studies done 1 5 for you by Industrial Biotest? 1 6 A . No. 1 7 Q. Why not? 1 8 A. Because the studies of interest to 1 9 m e were not done by Industrial Biotest. 2 0 Q . Where Industrial Biotest had done 2 1 w o r k for you or for your department, did 22 t h rl : ii : you to call into question the 2 3 v a 1 idity or reliability of that data? 2 4 A. We did some testing, retesting of 2 5 s o m e of materials, not any of the PCBs, gore: REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI STLCOPCB4026546 1 i n cidentally, and the test results came out 2 v i Ttually the same. And assumed that 3 d u ring certain periods that testing all 4 1 h eir data was valid. 5 Q. You redid certain tests done by 6 7 n () u ! ! i a 1 B i o t e s t ? 7 A. Mr. Wheeler had it done through a 7 n dust i i a 1 Biotest and through our then 9 t o xicology department, and the testing came 1 0 0 u l reasonably accurately, what Biotest had 1 1 P r oduced. And to the best of my knowledge, 1 2 w c did not have any fallacious data that we 1 3 u s e d f r o m I ndustrial B i o t e s t . ] 4 Q I n the r e t e sting did you use split 1 5 s a m p 1 e s o r simply re peat the tests ? 1 6 A . W e probably did some of i t with 1 7 s h orter term sampling to check some of the 1 8 1 a bs, but I know we did that. 1 9 Q. Did which? 2. n A. 90 day studies with some of the 2 1 1 a bs to check their validity. We were gun 2 2 s h y by this Lime, and we had -- we did 2 3 s o me 90 day tests to check various labs and 2 4 t li r y came out fine, we had no problems and 2 5 s a w no problems, and those that we repeated GOR K KB PORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI STLCOPCB4026547 1 came back with virtually the same data. So 2 we t):. .iimcd our stuff was not mixed up in 3 any kind of activity there. 4 Q . Wh.il were the selection c r i t e r i a 5 for determining which tests would b e 6 7 f' I i - ' . . 1 A. The ones that were most i mportant 8 to us. And that was two year stud ie s , rat 9- generally rat feeding studies, Because 1 0 this is a so-called chronic test. 1 1 Q. Which is a so-called -- 12 A. The two year study. Even if you 1 3 do absorption studies, they'll be done in 1 4 -- for as long as you can keep th e beasts 1 5 alive from the standpoint of their own 1 6 health . 1 7 Q. To your knowledge, did th e organic 1 8 chemicals division deal directly w i t h 1 9 Industrial Biotest? 2 0 A. No. They did it through this 2 ] department. 2 2 Q The m e d ical department? 2 3 A . Yes.. S till do. Which Is now the 2 4 c li in i cal company , still does. 2 5 Q And t o clarify something that you GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI STLCOPCB4026548 I 1 said earlier today, I as ked you wh e t her you 2 w c t < doing an y consultin g projects f o r 3 Moris a n t o and I think you said " I b e 1 iovc 4 So" . Is Mohs anto compen sating you f or the 5 time spent d u ring this d eposition? 6 A . No. 7 Q . And are you currently -- 8 MR . PREUSS : I think his t e sti jiony 9 w d s i hat he s till con siders himsel f a 1 0 cons ultant fo r M o n s a n t o . 11 MR . TALL0N : Are you curr e n tiy 1 2 d o i n g any con suiting work for Mons a n to? ]3 A. Only with----- in connecti 0 n with 1 4 this depositi on. But I cannot be pa i d f o r 1 9 it d uring the d e p o s it ion. 1 6 Q . You can't be paid for it d u ring 1 7 t h v drpos i tio n ? 18 A . No. There i s a court dec 1 s ion 1 9 that says you cannot be paid for a n i n - f a c t 2 0 dcpo s i t i o n . 2 1 Q. Okay. But what's the con s u 1 t i n g 2 2 work you're doing for Monsanto i n 2 3 conn ection with the deposition 7 2 4 A. This one, advising hi m as t o what 2 9 h a p p ened to the best of my -- ii ! | i I i | I | i j | i t | GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI STLCOPCB4026549 1 MR. PREUSS: You're not supposed 2 to discuss what you and I say. 3 MR. TALLON: Okay. So you're 4 tl t ,i w i n g a distinction between sitting here 5 and testifying and preparation? 6 A. Of course. 7 Q. And your testimony is that your 8 consulting arrangement is that you're 9 compensated for the preparation time, but ] 0 not for the testifying time? 1 1 A. Thatiscorrect. . 1 2 Q. Do you know how many hours you 1 3 plan to bill Monsanto for? ]4 MR. PREUSS: You don't have to 1 5 answer that. 16 A. I have no idea yet. No. 17 MR. TALLON: Do you belie v e that 1 8 the consultation in connection wit h this 1 9 deposition will last longer than t o d a y ? 20 A. No. I hope not. 2 1 Q. And at what rate are you being 2 2. compensated? 2 3 A . I haven't judged the rate yet. I 2 4 was doing it by day, which is what my type 2 8 consultant usually did. I cannot do that I I (GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI STLCOPCB4026550 I 1 with Monsanto because of the time I spend 2 on ragged pieces of two hours here a n d 3 three there, so I do it on a monthly -- on 4 an hourly basis. 5 Q. And what's your customary h o u r 1 y 6 rate? 7 A. Fifty dollars an hour. 8 Q. And do you expect to receiv e that 9 of something like that in connection with 1 0 your consulting work for this deposi t i o n ? 1 1 A. Of course. 1 2 Q And y our e xpen s es ? 1 3 A . I g o t i t f r o m t h e S c h o o 1 B o a r d in 1 4 s t . Louis , w h y s h o u 1 d n ' t I g e t it f r o m ]. 5 Monsanto . 1 6 Q . And are your expenses being picked 1 7 up? 1 8 A. As long as we're in town I do not 1 9 charge expenses to them. It's too f^ ` 2 0 difficult to do and maintain records o n . 2 1 Q. And you live in St. Louis? 2 3 A. I live in Kirkwood. 23 MR. TALLON: I don't 'believ e I 2 4 have .my thing further. 25 MR. PREUSS: I have no ques t i o n s | 1 | i iiis i I | i G 0 K F: h' F. 1' 0 K T ING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI STLCOPCB4026551 i 1 at this time. 2 3 4 5 (. 7 8 9 10 11 l2 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 GORE REPORTING COMPANY . ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI a r\ I STLCOPCB4026552 1 C 0 M E S NOW THE WITNESS JACK T. 2 G A R K i: T 'i , and having read the foregoing 3 transcript of the deposition taken on (.he 4 1st day of April, 1992, acknowledges by 5 signature hereto that it is a true and 6 accurate transcript of the testimony given 7 on the date hereinabove mentioned. 8 9 10 1 1 JACK T. GARRETT 12 1 3 Subscribed and sworn to me before this 1 4 _ _ ______ day of , 1 9 9 2. 1 5 My Commission expires : 16 17 18 ]9 r^ ` 2 0 Notary Public 21 22 23 2 4 rg 23 i GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 0/11 STLCOPCB4026553 1 State ofMissouri ) 2 ) SS . 3 CityofSt. Louis ) 4 I, Ronald A. Gore, a Notary Public in 5 and for the State of Missouri, duly 6 commissioned, qualified and authorized to 7 administer oaths and to certify to 8 depositions, do hereby certify that 9 pursuant to Notice in the civil cause now 3 D pending and undetermined in the Superior 1 1 Court for the State of California, for the 1 2. County of Los Angeles, to be used in the 1 3 trial of said cause in said court, I was 3 4 n d e d a t the o f f i c e s of Bryan Cave, 0 n e 1 5 o p o 1 i tan S q u are. in t h e City of St. 1 6 s , St ate o f Miss o u r i , by the a f o r e s a i d 1 7 ess; and b y the afores aid a t t o r n e y s / o n 3 8 the 1st day of April, 1992. 1 9 The said witness, being of sound mind 2 0 and being by me first carefully examined 2 1 and duly cautioned and sworn to testify the 2 2 truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 2 3 truth in the case aforesaid, thereupon 2 4 testified as is shown in the foregoing 2 5 transcript, said testimony being by me OOk'K REPORTING COMPANY ST. . LOUIS, ^ MISSOURI 04 0 ' . * STLCOPCB4026554 1 reported in shorthand and caused to be 2 transcribed into typewriting, and that the 3 foregoing pages correctly set forth the 4 testimony of the aforementioned witness, 5 together with the questions propounded by 6 counsel and remarks and objections of 7 counsel thereto, and is in all respects a 8 full, true, correct and complete transcript 9 of the questions propounded to and the 1 0 answers given by said witness; that 1 1 signature of the deponent was not waived by ] 7 agreement of counsel. 1 3 I further certify that I am not of 1 4 co v n s o1 or attorney for either of the 1 5 parties to said suit, not related to nor 1 6 interested in any of the parties or their 1 7 attorneys. ] 8 Witness my hand and notarial seal at 1 9 St. Louis, Missouri, this day of 2 0 , 1 9 9 2. 2 1 My Commission expires May 22, 1994. 22 2 3 Notary Public in and for the 2 4 Slate of Missouri 25 pOKK 8 K 11 (i h' '!' ! NO COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI h a n ! STLCOPCB4026555