Document RJqpZKMVb6DpLDnen938YMaLv

/ UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE DISTRICT OF NEW JERSEY JOAN MAERTIN, Executrix of the Estate of Lothar Maertin, JOAN MAERTIN, ) ) ) individually and in her ) own right, et al., Plaintiff s, ) ) vs. ) . ARMSTRONG WORLD INDUSTRIES, INC., ) ) ) VS . ) MONSANTO COMPANY AND AMERICAN) MINERAL SPIRITS COMPANY, ) Defendants. ) Cause No. L-95-CV 02849 (JBS) DEPOSITION OF WILLIAM PAPAGEORGE Taken on Behalf of the Defendants November 12, 1997 Taylor & Associates Reporting, Inc. COl Hi' KMI'OKTMUS 7494 ETHEL AVE. ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 63117 PHONE: (314) 644-2191 1-800-280-DEPO DepoNet^ WATER PCB-SD0000016573 1 1 INDEX OF QUESTIONERS Page 2 QUESTIONS BY; Mr. Turet 4 3 Mr. O'Connor 13 6 Mr. Lipshutz 203 4 Mr. Turet 223 Mr. O'Connor 226 5 Mr. Lipshutz 229 Mr. DiMuro 2 32 6 INDEX OF DEFENDANT'S DEPOSITION EXHIBITS 7 NO . DESCRIPTION MARKED 1 Curriculum vitae 27 8 2 Memo dated 3/6/69 48 3 Memo dated 3/10/69 59 9 4 Minutes of meeting , 61 5 Executive summary 65 10 6 Outline 70 7 Minutes of meeting 76 11 8 Presentation to field sales 80 9 Management plan 92 12 10 Minutes of meeting 93 11 Memo dated 10/6/70 94 13 12 Handwritten note 99 13 Minutes of meeting 102 14 1 4A Telex dated 6/2/71 104 14 B Memo dated 6/3 104 15 15 Letter dated 5/10/72 105 16 Letter dated 11/29/76 113 16 18 Letter dated 12/20/76 117 18 A Perspective 118 17 19 A Copy of Label 124 19 B Copy of label 12 4 18 2 0 Notice dated 10/29/70 133 2 1 Lot number list 213 19 2 0 Exhibits attached 21 22 23 24 25 TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (3 14 ) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 2-80-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016574 2 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE DISTRICT OF NEW JERSEY 2 JOAN MAERTIN, Executrix of ) 3 the Estate of Lothar ) Maertin, JOAN MAERTIN, ) 4 individually and in her ) Cause No. L-95-CV own right, et al., ) 02849 (JBS) 5 Plaintiffs, ) vs. ) 6) ARMSTRONG WORLD INDUSTRIES, ) 7 INC., ) VS . ) 8 MONSANTO COMPANY AND AMERICAN) MINERAL SPIRITS. COMPANY, ) 9 Defendants. ) 10 11 DEPOSITION OF WILLIAM B. 12 PAPAGEORGE, produced, sworn and examined on the 13 12TH day of November, 1997, between the hours of 14 eight o'clock in the forenoon and six o'clock in 15 the afternoon of that day, at the offices of 16 Taylor & Associates, Inc., 7494 Ethel, St. 17 Louis, Missouri, before Nancy A. Kuncaitis, a 18 Registered Professional Reporter and Notary 19 Public within and for the State of Missouri in 2 0 the cause now pending in the United States 2 1 District Court for the District of New Jersey, 2 2 wherein Joan Maertin et al. are the Plaintiffs, 2 3 and Armstrong World Industries, Inc., and 24 Monsanto Company and American Mineral Spirits 2 5 Company are the Defendants. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES ( 3 14 ) 644-2 191 * TOLL FREE ( 800 ) 2'80-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016575 3 1 APPEARANCES 2 For the Plaintiff: 3 LAW OFFICES OF GARY D. GINSBERG BY: Brian P. O'Connor 4 Attorney at Law Atrium II, Suite 101 5 3000 Atrium Way Mt. Laurel, New Jersey 08054 6 (609) 727-1991 7 For the Defendant Monsanto Company: 8 LATHAM & WATKINS 9 BY: Christopher M. DiMuro One Newark Center 10 Newark, New Jersey 07101-3174 (973) 639-7298 11 SMITH HELMS MULLIS & MOORE, L.L.P. 12 BY: Gerard H. Davidson, Jr. 300 North Greene Street, Suite 1400 13 P. 0. Box 21927 Greensboro, North Carolina 27420 14 For the Defendant Armstrong World industries, 15 Inc. : 16 DUANE, MORRIS & HECKSCHER, LLP BY: Craig F. Turet 17 One Liberty Place Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103-7396 18 (215) 979-1000 19 For the Defendant (Present Telephonically) 20 WILSON, ELSER, MOSKOWITZ, EDELMAN & DICKER 2 1 BY: Gary Lipshutz Two Gateway Center 2 2 Newark, New Jersey 07102-5311 23 24 25 TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES ( 3 14 ) 644-2 19 1 * TOLL FREE (800) 2'80-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016576 4 1 IT IS HEREBY STIPULATED AND AGREED by and 2 between Counsel for the Plaintiff and Counsel 3 for the Defendant that this deposition may be 4 taken by Nancy A. Kuncaitis, Notary Public and 5 Registered Professional Reporter, thereafter 6 transcribed into typewriting, with the signature 7 of the witness being expressly reserved. 8 9 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE. 10 of lawful age, being produced, sworn and 11 examined on behalf of Defendant, testified as 12 follows: 13 14 EXAMINATION 15 QUESTIONS BY MR. TURET: 16 Q. Good morning, Mr. Papageorge. 17 A. Good morning. 18 Q. We met a few moments ago. My name is Craig 19 Turet. I'm an attorney representing Armstrong 20 World Industries who's a defendant in this case 2 1 and also a third party plaintiff with a claim 22 against Monsanto. Mr. Papageorge, I know you've 23 been deposed a number of times before, so I 24 won't bore you with all the details that I know 25 you've already experienced, but I will ask you a TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES ( 3 14 ) 644-2 191 * TOLL FREE ( 800) 2'80-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016577 5 1 series of questions this morning. You'll be 2 expected to answer them as completely as you 3 can. Please don't feel that you must speculate 4 or guess, just tell us whatever you know in 5 response to the questions. If you don't hear my 6 question or you don't understand it., let me know 7 and I'll be happy to repeat or rephrase it. If 8 you do answer a question, that will mean that 9 you've both heard it and understood it. Is that 10 acceptable? 11 A. One thought occurs to me, and I'Ve run across 12 this before where I believe I understand but my 13 understanding is not the same as your intent, or 14 your understanding and mine may not be the 15 same. So with that thought in mind. 16 Q. There is always the possibility of 17 misunderstanding and we can't do much to 18 eliminate that, but do the best you can based on 19 your understanding of the question. 2 0 A. I will. 2 1 Q. The only other thing, well, two other things. 22 One, you understand, sir, that if for any reason 23 you're not available at the time of trial that 24 your testimony today is being taken down by the 2 5 court reporter and could be used just as if you TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES ( 314 ) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE ( 800 ) 2`80-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016578 6 1 were testifying during that trial? 2 A. I do understand that. 3 Q. The other thing, if you need to take a break at 4 any time, let us know, we'll be happy to 5 accommodate you as long as there is no question 6 outstanding. 7 A. I will. 8 Q. Okay. Mr. Papageorge, can you just tell us very 9 briefly what your employment history was before 10 you came to Monsanto? 11 A. When do you want me to start, as a high school 12 grocery store worker? 13 Q. Let's talk about after college. 14 A. All right. I worked for Phillips Petroleum 15 Company in Bartlesville, Oklahoma, from 1947 to 16 1951. At that time I then joined Monsanto 17 Company in St. Louis. 18 Q. Before we go onto the Monsanto employment, what 19 was your position with Phillips Petroleum? 2 0 A. There were two distinct types of assignments. 2 1 For the first two years I was involved in the 22 research department working on oil field 23 production problems associated with drilling for 24 oil, getting more oil out of spent oil fields, 25 the prevention of blockages in the flow of the TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES ( 3 14 ) 644-2 191 * TOLL FREE ( 800 ) 2'80-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016579 7 1 oil brought about by chemical and physical 2 conditions. And the last two years .with 3 Phillips I was involved in the recommendation of 4 the kinds of equipment that would be required to 5 achieve certain fractions of petroleum for use 6 in gasolines and raw materials for chemicals. 7 Q. Are these blending machines of some-type to 8 produce a finished product? 9 A. No, these were units that were designed to 10 receive either the crude petroleum or subsequent 11 portions of that crude petroleum and further 12 divide it into usable petroleum products. 13 Q. Okay. So in 1951 you started to say you began 14 your employment with Monsanto? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. What was the first position you held with 17 Monsanto? 18 A. I was a design engineer assigned to design 19 equipment for the manufacture of a chemical at 2 0 one of Monsanto's plants. 2 1 Q. Was that the Queeny plant? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Which product was it that you were involved 24 with? 25 A. Phthalic anhydride, P-H-T-H-A-L-I-C, and TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES ( 314 ) 644-2 191 * TOLL FREE ( 800 ) 2'80-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016580 8 1 anhydride, A-N-H-Y-D-R-I-D-E. 2 Q. What were your responsibilities as a design 3 engineer? 4 A. Well, I had to make the necessary engineering 5 calculations and decisions as it related to 6 designing equipment that would produce the pure 7 product, designing the pumps to convey the 8 various streams in the system, to select the 9 instruments to control the conditions under 10 which it was manufactured, the storage tanks 11 which held the starting material, the 12 intermediate material, and the finished 13 product. Those are just some examples of the 14 kinds of things I was involved with. 15 Q. And how long did you remain a design engineer at 16 the Queeny plant? 17 A. Several years as best I remember, two or three 18 maybe. 19 Q. Did you assume a different position within 2 0 Monsanto after that one? 2 1 A. Yes. I was assigned as an assistant supervisor, 22 I think was the official title, in a department 23 in the plant that manufactured plasticizers, 24 which are chemicals used as additives in 25 plastics manufacture. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016581 9 1 Q. This was still at the Queeny plant? 2 A. Correct. 3 Q. Just to clarify, the Queeny plant was or is 4 located in St. Louis? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. What were your responsibilities as assistant 7 supervisor? 8 A. It was a many faceted job. One, of course, was 9 to see that the proper number of employees 10 reported for their shift duties, that the 11 employees were kept up-to-date regarding any 12 changes in procedures, any planning related to 13 the kind of product that they were expected to 14 make. I was responsible for the scheduling and 15 holding the necessary meetings, whether they be 16 safety meetings, operating meetings, and the 17 like. I was responsible for the quality of the 18 product made, the efficient use of raw materials 19 and utilities, and to make sure that the 20 scheduled production was met. 21 Q. Now, you mentioned that one of your 22 responsibilities was to insure that the workers 23 were kept up-to-date on changes in procedures; 24 is that right? 25 A. Yes. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016582 10 1 Q. Did you have responsibility for informing them 2 of the existing safe handling or safety 3 procedures? 4 A. Certainly, yes. 5 Q. Also changes that might have been made to those 6 safe handling or safety procedures? 7 A. If any changes, yes. 8 Q. And which -- how many plasticizer products were 9 within your responsibility at that time 10 approximately? . 11 A. It's a bit of a guess, 10 to 12, 8 to 12, 12 somewhere in there. 13 Q. Were each of those a separate manufacturing 14 facility within the plant? 15 A. The equipment was such that it could be used for 16 several of these materials, and part of my 17 problem was to schedule what pot and pan, I'll 18 use that expression, would be used to make 19 product A and when. And that then depended on 20 what the warehouse would tell me regarding we're 2 1 running short, we'd better make some more, that 2 2 kind of dialogue would take place and help me 2 3 schedule the production. 24 Q. During the time you were an assistant supervisor 25 were any of the plasticizer products being TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES ( 3 14 ) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 2-8 0-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016583 11 1 manufactured at Queeny, PCB products? 2 A. No . 3 Q. Was DOP one of the plasticizer products under 4 your supervision at that time? 5 MR. DiMURO: Objection to form. You 6 can answer. 7 A . If by DOP you mean dioctyl phthalate? 8 Q. Yes, sir. 9 A . Yes, it was one o f them. 10 Q . Were any of the Santicizer line of plasticizer 11 products under your supervision as an assistant 12 supervisor? 13 A . Yes . 14 Q. Specifically do you remember whether Santicizer 15 160 was manufactured there? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. How about Santicizer 140? . 18 A. That is not as crystal clear in my thinking as 19 the 160. I don't really remember that. 2 0 Q. How about 141? 2 1 A. Again, I don't remember specifically. There 2 2 were, like I said, a dozen or so of them and we 23 used different terminology in the production 24 line instead of the trade names. This is why I 25 have trouble translating from one system to the TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016584 12 1 other. 2 Q. Fair enough. And how about, do you recall 3 Santicizer 148? That's the last one I'll ask. 4 A. Not really. It blends in with all the other 5 14 0s. 6 Q. Now, with regard to the manufacture of 7 Santicizer 160, were the employees instructed if 8 they got any on their skin to wash it off? 9 MR. DiMURO: Objection, he's not 10 going to answer any questions on Santicizer and 11 DOP in this case. 12 MR . TURET: On what grounds? 13 MR . DiMURO: On the grounds, 14 well beyond the scope of this deposition 15 are here to talk about PCBs, not about other 16 products manufactured by Monsanto, and certainly 17 not about other products that were not contained 18 in the plastisol coatings. . 19 MR. TURET: I disagree with you. You 2 0 know our position very well about other agents 2 1 at issue, but you recognize there was no 22 limitation in advance placed on this deposition 2 3 as to what could be talked about and what could 24 not. If you terminate this line of questioning, 25 Mr. Papageorge will have to be produced again TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES ( 314 ) 644-2 191 * TOLL FREE ( 8 00) 2'80-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016585 13 1 subject to a ruling by the judge, of course. 2 MR. DiMURO: I understand. 3 MR. TURET: Just so we're clear, with 4 regard to DOP and with regard to each of the 5 Santicizer products? 6 MR. DiMURO: That's right. 7 MR. LIPSHUTZ: I join in the 8 obj ection. 9 MR. DiMURO: Unless you want to give 10 me a proffer of how it relates to this case. 11 MR. TURET: I'm not under any 12 obligation to give you a proffer. There is no 13 limitation on discovery other than to the extent 14 acceptable so we're accepting your not to answer 15 is recognized and our position is stated as is. 16 MR. DiMURO: There is limitations on 17 discovery beyond the scope. 18 MR. DAVIDSON: You-all haven't stated 19 the limitations. 2 0 MR. TURET: That works both ways. 2 1 MR. DiMURO: You do what you have to 2 2 do. I'll direct him not to answer. If Judge 2 3 Rosen orders we have to bring him back, that's 24 fine. 2 5 MR. LIPSHUTZ: Just so I understand, TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016586 14 1 you're not going to permit the witness to 2 testify regarding any other product that's not 3 included in the ceiling tile plastisol? 4 MR. TURET: That's not what he said. 5 MR. DiMURO: I'm not going to allow 6 any testimony on the Santicizer lines of 7 products and DOP. I don't know what else he's 8 got and I'll take it question by question. 9 MR. TURET: I assume you're not 10 closing off questions about Aroclor PCB 11 containing products? 12 MR. DiMURO: Did you hear me say 13 tha t ? 14 MR. TURET: Just so I state for the 15 record so it's clear, I take it if I continue to 16 ask questions with regard to safe handling 17 practices as to any of these other products or 18 toxicity information with regard to the other 19 products or those lines of inquiry with regard 2 0 to customers of those other products, all of 21 these are ones you're going to instruct him not 22 to answer, again, as to Santicizers and DOP? 23 MR. DiMURO: Ask about customers, 24 Monsanto's customers for Santicizer products? 25 MR. TURET: If that's the one -- TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES ( 314 ) 644-2 19 1 * TOLL FREE ( 800 ) 2'80-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016587 15 1 MR. DiMURO: I'm not letting him 2 answer without a proffer by you, and you said 3 you're under no obligation - 4 MR. TURET: I don't need to go 5 through every question, that's all. 6 MR. DiMURO: Let me say what I want 7 to say. Without a proffer by you about how any 8 of them are relevant, although you're under no 9 obligation to do so, he's not going to answer 1 0 any questions on Santicizer products or DOP 11 products. 12 Q. (By Mr. Turet) Mr. Papageorge, what was the next 13 position that you held after assistant 14 supervisor? Let me just clarify. You started 15 as assistant supervisor in 1953 or '54; is that 16 about right? 17 A. That's very close, yes. 18 Q. How long were you assistant supervisor in this 19 area? 2 0 A. About a year. 2 1 Q. What was the next position that you held with 2 2 Monsanto? 2 3 A. I was made a full supervisor of my own operating 24 department. 2 5 Q. And - TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES ( 3 14 ) 644-2 19 1 * TOLL FREE ( 800) 2-80-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016588 16 1 MR. LIPSHUTZ: I'm sorry, what was 2 that position again? 3 THE WITNESS: Supervisor as 4 distinguished from assistant supervisor. 5 Q. And was this also within the Queeny plant? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Which operating department was yours? 8 A. I don't know that it had any official title 9 other than department A dash 5. 10 Q. Was there any product basis on which one 11 department was separated from another? 12 A. Oh, yes. 13 Q. What was the definition of that particular 14 department? 15 A. This was a department that manufactured 16 chemicals that eventually either directly or 17 with further chemical modification ended up as 18 additives in rubber chemicals. 19 Q. Did any of your work as supervisor in that 2 0 operating department involve any of the PCB 2 1 Aroclor products? 2 2 A. No . 2 3 Q. How long did you remain as supervisor? 2 4 A. Couple years. 2 5 Q. Until roughly '58, '57? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES ( 314 ) 644-2 191 * TOLL FREE (800) 2`80-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016589 17 1 A. '57, somewhere in there, yes. 2 Q. What was the next position you assumed within 3 Monsanto? 4 A. I was appointed a maintenance supervisor. 5 Q. And was that also in the Queeny plant? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. How long did you remain a maintenance 8 supervisor? 9 A. Couple years. 10 Q. What was the next position that you assumed? 11 A. Maintenance superintendent. 12 Q. Also at the Queeny plant? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Just so I don't keep asking the same question, 15 were PCB products manufactured at the Queeny 16 plant while you were there to your knowledge? 17 A. I have a little difficulty in the use of the 18 word "manufactured." If you mean were they 19 chemically produced from one type of material to 2 0 the PCB type, no. 2 1 Q. I'm not asking about blending operations. 22 A. That's what I had in mind, yes, sir. 2 3 Q. How long did you serve as a maintenance 24 superintendent? 2 5 A. Couple years. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES ( 3 14 ) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE ( 80 0) 2'80-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016590 18 1 Q. Until approximately 1961 or '62? 2 A. No, I would say '59ish. 3 Q. What position did you assume after being a 4 maintenance superintendent? 5 A. I joined the Queeny plant engineering department 6 as an, I think the title, as best I recall, was 7 assistant engineering superintendent. 8 Q. How long were you in that position? Would you 9 like to consult -- I notice you have a document 10 next to you. If it would help to look at it to 11 refresh your recollection, by all means do so. 12 MR. DiMURO: What we have is Mr. 13 Papageorge's CV which I can place in front of 14 him so he can get the correct titles and dates 15 for his employment at Monsanto. 16 A. I was an assistant engineering superintendent 17 from 1959 to 1961. 18 Q. I'm sorry, '59 to '61? 19 A. '61. 20 Q. What was the next position? 2 1 A. I was then appointed the general superintendent 22 of warehouse, inventories, utilities. 2 3 Q. Also Queeny? 24 A. Yes. 2 5 Q. How long was that -- were you in that position? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES ( 314 ) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 2'80-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016591 19 1 A. until 1964. 2 Q. What position did you hold beginning in 1964? 3 A. I was transferred to the WG Krummrich plant of 4 Monsanto as a general superintendent of 5 manufacturing. 6 Q. And did you have responsibility for plasticizer 7 products manufactured at the Krummrich plant? 8 A. No . 9 Q. I take it the PCB containing Aroclor products 10 were not under your supervision at that time? 11 A. The manufacture of those products was not under 12 my supervision. 13 Q. Was the blending of those products under your 14 supervision at the Krummrich plant? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Was any other operation involving the Aroclor 17 products under your supervision? 18 A. Well, I was a user of these materials in my 19 equipment. 2 0 Q. How long did you remain a general superintendent 2 1 of manufacturing at the Krummrich plant? 2 2 A. About a year, 1965. 2 3 Q. The Krummrich plant is a plant at which PCB 2 4 containing products were manufactured at the 25 time; is that right? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016592 20 1 A. It was a plant that did manufacture PCBs, yes. 2 Q. What was the next position you held after 3 general superintendent at the Krummrich plant? 4 A. I was appointed the plant manager of the 5 Monsanto plant located in Anniston, Alabama. 6 Q. And the Anniston plant was also one at which PCB 7 containing products were manufactured; right? 8 A. That is correct. 9 Q. How long were you a plant manager at Anniston? 10 A. Till the end of 1969. 11 Q. Till December 31, '69? ' ' 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And as plant manager at Anniston, what were your 14 responsibilities and duties? 15 A. The best answer I can give to that question is 16 the buck stopped at my desk for everything, 17 which involved the hiring of the employees, the 18 training of them, the proper design of the 19 equipment they used, the replacement of that 2 0 equipment, the purchase of materials to use in 2 1 manufacturing other chemicals, the packaging of 2 2 those chemicals, the shipping thereof, the 2 3 handling of all the waste materials that 2 4 generated at the plant, the relationships with 2 5 the community, relationships with the TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016593 21 1 governmental authorities of the State of Alabama 2 and the federal government. Everything that 3 occurred at that plant, if not done properly, I 4 was held responsible. 5 Q. When you mentioned governmental authorities 6 specifically you mentioned Federal, which 7 Federal authorities did you have occasion to 8 deal with as plant manager? 9 A. Now, when I mentioned these authorities, I 10 didn't mean that I personally sat down with 11 anybody. The plant had these connections and I 12 was held responsible for all of the plant's 13 actions, so governmental authorities of the 14 Federal type would involve, I'm trying to think 15 of a good example, for example, all of the 16 shipping and hauling regulations regarding the 17 use of the proper containers, the use of the 18 proper vehicles, the tank cars, tank trucks, 19 these kinds of things had to meet the Federal 2 0 regulations. That's just one example. 2 1 Q. Did you personally have a relationship with any 2 2 of the Federal government, Federal authorities, 2 3 Federal officials that were involved in 24 regulating the Anniston plant? 2 5 A . No . TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016594 22 1 Q. Now, in your capacity as plant manager at 2 Anniston, were you required to learn the safe 3 handling and safety procedures that were 4 applicable to the workers there? 5 A. Certainly. 6 Q. Did you develop an understanding or have an 7 understanding while you were plant manager about 8 the toxicological information relating to PCBs? 9 MR. DiMURO: Objection to form. You 10 can answer. 11 A. Yes, I had an understanding. 12 Q. Were there documents that existed at the 13 Anniston plant that summarized toxicity 14 information pertaining to PCBs while you were 15 there? 16 MR. DiMURO: Object to the form 17 again. You can answer. 18 A. Yes, there were documents that addressed the 19 PCBs safe handling procedures and toxicity. 2 0 Q. What documents were those? 2 1 A. They were -- there were several types, a 22 memorandum from Monsanto corporate medical 23 department, which were addressed to Monsanto 24 plants that either made or used PCBs. There 25 were summaries and notes used by the supervisors ' TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016595 23 1 and the foremen and the chief operators in their 2 safety meetings at which the proper handling of 3 chemicals was discussed. There were the more 4 sophisticated medical kinds of reports available 5 in the plant doctor's office. And of course, we 6 had copies of the products brochures that 7 Monsanto had prepared that described the 8 products that were shipped out of the plant, 9 made and shipped out of the plant. 10 Q. So those are -- the product brochures you're 11 describing, are those technical bulletins or 12 application data bulletins, for example? 13 A. There is some of each, yes. 14 Q. Are there other things that you would consider 15 to be product brochures that were not technical 16 bulletins or application data bulletins? 17 A. Not that I know of. 18 Q. Based on your review of the documents that 19 you've described while you were plant manager at 2 0 Anniston, did you have an understanding of 2 1 whether the workers' exposure to PCB containing 2 2 products could lead to liver damage? 2 3 A. Yes. 24 Q. What was that understanding? 2 5 A. My understanding was that repeated high level TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016596 24 1 exposures through improper handling could 2 eventually lead to a condition where the liver 3 could not tolerate nor could it mend itself or 4 recover, and that damage would then be permanent 5 and it could lead to death. 6 Q. Again, based on your review of those same 7 documents while you were plant manager at 8 Anniston, did you have any understanding as to 9 whether or not exposure to PCBs could lead to 10 cancer? 11 MR. DiMURO: Objection to the form. 12 MR. LIPSHUTZ: Same objection. 13 A. No, although that topic came up, there was never 14 any information available from any source that 15 would lead to that conclusion. 16 Q. I recognize I'm asking the question in the 17 negative. Do you recall ever seeing a document 18 while you were at the Anniston plant that 19 specifically said that PCBs could or could not 2 0 cause cancer? 2 1 A. I don't recall any document. I do recall 2 2 conversations. 2 3 Q. What conversations do you recall that 24 specifically related to cancer? 2 5 MR. DiMURO: Object to the form. You TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES ( 314 ) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE ( 800) 2-8 0-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016597 25 1 can answer. 2 A. They were generally questions made by employees, 3 and I have no idea where they got the ideas. 4 Q. When you received those questions from 5 employees, what did you tell the employees? 6 MR. DiMURO: I'll object to the 7 form. I don't think he testified he got 8 questions from the employees, but go ahead. 9 Q. Did I misunderstand your statement a moment ago? 10 A. As I understood your question, did the subject 11 of cancer as it related to PCBs, did it ever 12 come up. 13 Q. Right. 14 A. And as I remember, there was no written document 15 to my knowledge that existed at that time. 16 MR. O'CONNOR: Just so the record is 17 clear, when you're saying that time can you give 18 us a time frame? 19 THE WITNESS: '65 to '69. 2 0 MR. O'CONNOR: Thank you. 2 1 A. To '70, well, first of January '70 is when I 2 2 transferred. Now, I should add the question of 2 3 carcinogens was not raised only with respect to 24 PCBs, it was raised with all the chemicals that 2 5 these employees would be exposed to or possibly TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016598 26 1 be exposed to in this plant. My answer had to 2 do with specifically reference to PCBs and there 3 was -- and the answer would be we had no 4 evidence, although we've been in this business 5 for decades, to show that PCBs are associated 6 with any cancer illness. 7 Q. That's what you would tell an employee who had a 8 question about whether PCBs could cause cancer? 9 A. That would be a typical answer, yes, sir. 10 Q. Now, I take it that as of January 1st, 1970, you 11 assumed a different position? 12 A . Yes. 13 Q. What was the position that you assumed as of 14 January 1st of '70? 15 A. I was appointed as manager, environmental 16 control. 17 Q. Okay. How long did you remain as manager of 18 environmental control? 19 A. From 1970 to 1973. 20 MR. TURET: Is there any objection to 2 1 copying the CV and attaching it? 22 MR. DiMURO: No. Mr. Papageorge was 2 3 reading it. You can have a copy of it. 2 4 Q. Would you like to make a copy of this so you can 2 5 keep the original? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES ( 314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE ( 8 00) 2'80-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016599 27 1 A. It's up to you. 2 Q. Do you have more copies for yourself? 3 A . Yes. 4 MR. TURET: Let's mark the curriculum 5 vitae as Exhibit Papageorge 1. 6 (Curriculum vitae 7 marked as Exhibit No. l 8 for identification.) 9 Q. Mr. Papageorge, since I'm going to ask you some 10 questions in some detail about your experiences 11 as manager of environmental control and manager 12 of product acceptability, perhaps we could pick 13 up in 1977 when you became director of 14 environmental operations. How did your 15 responsibilities differ as director of 16 environmental operations than they had been as 17 manager of product acceptability? 18 MR. DiMURO: Did we set forth what 19 his responsibilities were as manager for product 2 0 acceptability? 2 1 MR. TURET: No. I'm going to come 22 back to that since I'm going to ask those 2 3 questions in detail. I'm jumping ahead because 2 4 these are just going to be cursory. 2 5 MR. LIPSHUTZ: Could the court TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES ( 3 14 ) 644-2 191 * TOLL FREE ( 800) 2'80-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016600 28 1 reporter read back Mr. Turet's question? 2 MR. TURET: It's how did his 3 responsibilities differ in 1977 than before. i 4 Q. Did you understand my question, Mr. Papageorge? 5 A. I believe I did. As director of environmental 6 operations I was responsible for a part of 7 Monsanto called the Monsanto Industrial 8 Chemicals Company in the areas of releases to 9 the environment, employee safety and health, and 10 product information as it relates to 11 environmental and human exposures for all of the 12 plants assigned to that part of Monsanto and all 13 of the products produced and used by that part 14 of Monsanto. 15 Q. And did that position relate only to products 16 that were then being manufactured by Monsanto or 17 did it also include responsibility for PCBs 18 which may no longer have been manufactured by 19 Monsanto? 20 MR. DiMURO: What year are we talking 2 1 about ? 22 MR. TURET: 1977. 2 3 A. It included products manufactured by Monsanto 24 including any PCBs. And my hesitation is one of 25 it also included products purchased and used by TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES ( 3 14 ) 644-2 191 * TOLL FREE ( 8 0 0) 2-8 0-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016601 29 1 Monsanto in its plants. 2 Q. Specifically with respect to PCBs, is your 3 answer any different in describing your 4 responsibilities as director of environmental 5 operations? 6 MR. DiMURO: Object to the form. You 7 can answer. 8 Q. Do you understand my question? 9 A. I have a little difficulty in that in the time 10 frame '77 to '82, which describes the period in 11 which I was director of environmental operations 12 for Monsanto Chemical Intermediates Company, I 13 was not directly involved nor were the plant - 14 let me think -- the plants assigned to this part 15 of Monsanto did produce and use PCBs. But the 16 product itself was assigned to another part of 17 Monsanto called Monsanto Industrial Chemicals 18 Company and that part of Monsanto was 19 responsible for the PCBs that left Monsanto and 2 0 are on their way to the customer. t 2 1 Q. So were there another series of persons as of 22 1977 affiliated with Monsanto Industrial 2 3 Chemicals Company who had more direct 2 4 responsibility for PCB issues? 25 A. The word "direct" is confusing to me because the TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES ( 3 14 ) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (80 0) 2'80-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016602 30 1 plants where the PCBs were manufactured, my 2 group, my team had responsibility for the impact 3 of those PCBs on the environment of the plant 4 and the workers of the plant as examples. But 5 when it left the plant on its way to the 6 customer, it was really under the other part of 7 Monsanto that had the marketing team reporting 8 to it. 9 Q. I understand. 10 A. But I should add that the time period is such 11 that the early part of 1977, '78 is when PCBs 12 were still in the marketplace and involved. And 13 of course, once you get into the 1980s, the PCBs 14 are no longer an issue. 15 Q. As they were sold to customers or not sold to 16 customers? 17 A. Yes, but none were manufactured and none were 18 shipped. 19 Q. But to the extent there were environmental 2 0 issues at a particular plant, those continued to 2 1 be within your responsibility; is that correct? 22 A. Of those plants assigned to me. 23 Q. Yes. 2 4 MR. LIPSHUTZ: Is that question 25 directed towards just PCBs, Craig? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES ( 3 14) 644-2 191 * TOLL FREE ( 800) 2-80-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016603 31 1 MR. TURET: Yes . 2 Q. Did your job title ultimately change from 3 director of environmental operations from the 4 Monsanto Chemical Intermediates Company -- let 5 me rephrase that question. Did you move over to 6 the Monsanto Industrial Chemicals Company from 7 the Intermediates Chemical Company at some 8 point? 9 A. There was a reorganization within Monsanto in 10 1983 which eliminated the part that used to be 11 called the Chemical Intermediates Company. I 12 was then assigned to the Industrial Chemicals 1 3 Company. 14 Q. Did your job responsibilities change at all? 15 A. No . 16 Q. And you remained in that position through 1985? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And in 1986 you became manager of occupational 19 health? 2 0 A. There was another reorganization in Monsanto 2 1 where the entire chemical unit was called 22 Monsanto Chemical Company. And I was assigned 2 3 as manager of occupational health. 24 Q. And you retired at the end of 1986? 25 A . Yes . TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016604 32 1 Q. Have you remained in retirement since then? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Okay. Let's go back, Mr. Papageorge, to your 4 tenure as manager of environmental control 5 beginning in 1970. If I remember correctly, 6 that's beginning as of January 1st of 1970? 7 A. Yes, that's correct. 8 Q. Was that a new position that was created as of 9 January 1st, 1970? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Did you have to interview for that position 12 prior to January 1st, 1970? 13 A. I did. 14 Q. When did you first learn that such a position 15 was being created? 16 A. In about, as best I recall, November of 1969. 17 Q. Was it a position for which many people within 18 Monsanto were applying or was it one for which 19 you were the sole candidate? 2 0 A. I have no idea. 2 1 Q. When did you learn that you actually had been 22 selected to become manager of environmental 23 control? 24 A. It was after the Christmas holiday season in 2 5 December, probably the last week of December. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES ( 3 14 ) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (8 00 ) 2-8 0-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016605 33 1 Q. And you had to report within a week? 2 A. Well, I was holding down two jobs for a while. 3 Q. What did you do once you had become the manager 4 of environmental control to learn about the 5 subject matters that were then within your 6 responsibility? 7 A. I made arrangements with individuals who had 8 been involved with the PCB environmental 9 situation for a series of in-depth discussions 10 which I am calling lately as tutorials where the 11 individual and I would lock ourselves in a room 12 in a library and just talk and I would be shown 13 all kinds of documents and we would discuss them 14 ,in depth. That was my way of playing, in 15 essence, catch up. 16 Q. And was one of those tutorials with Elmer 17 Wheeler? 18 A. The longest one, yes, sir. 19 Q. How long was that one? You seem to have a 2 0 recollection of its being particularly long. 2 1 A. Yes, it was several weeks, first quarter of 1970 22 or so was pretty much devoted to spending time 2 3 with Mr. Wheeler. 24 Q. Did you also have tutorials with Dr. Kelly? 25 A. Yes. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES ( 314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE ( 800) 2-80-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016606 34 1 Q. How about William Richard? 2 A. I had a few with Dr. Richard. 3 Q. Any with Martin Farrar? 4 A. One or two. 5 Q. How about Edward John? 6 A. Ed John, I don't know that I would say I had a 7 true tutorial. I spent a little time with Mr. 8 John to try to find out what role he was 9 involved in, what kind of things he had done up 10 to that point. It didn't take very long with 11 Mr. John. 12 Q. He wasn't someone with a lot of substantive 13 knowledge about the issues? 14 MR. DiMURO: Object to the form. You 15 can answer. 16 A. I don't know how to describe a lot. He was 17 pretty well tuned in to things that had happened 18 in the recent period of time as distinguished 19 from anything that may have happened in 1930, 2 0 for example. 2 1 Q. Dr. Kelly had been around a long time at that 2 2 point? 2 3 A. Yes, he had. . 2 4 Q. So were he and Mr. Wheeler the sources of the 2 5 historical information? " TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016607 35 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Actually, let me take a step back. Can you just 3 list off what your responsibilities were as 4 manager of environmental control? 5 A. I'll try. In a very broad sense I felt that one 6 of my jobs was to sort of let the left hand know 7 what the right is doing, not only within 8 Monsanto with the different departments, 9 research, manufacturing, marketing and top 10 management and the labor units and just any 11 part. It also had to do with finding out what 12 was going on in the rest of the world in terms 13 of what laboratories were doing, what were they 14 discovering, who was involved. And this 15 included not only government laboratories but 16 also included other industrial laboratories as 17 well as university laboratories. I had to find 18 out as best I could what the federal, state and 19 local authorities were doing and discovering. 2 0 And when I say these things, I also would like 2 1 to suggest that it does include, where I could, 2 2 foreign countries and their equivalent entities, 2 3 universities, laboratories, regulatory people, 24 what they were doing and thinking and planning. 25 And it wasn't only a one-way street, it was also TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016608 36 1 a case of where I would disseminate outwardly 2 what Monsanto was doing and planning. That just 3 about describes what I was trying to accomplish. 4 Q. In the category of disseminating what Monsanto 5 was doing and planning and the information you 6 were gathering about PCBs, was one of your 7 responsibilities to communicate information to 8 customers of Monsanto when asked? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Was -- you mentioned that, letting the left hand 11 know what the right was doing. Is that 12 essentially obtaining information from the 13 different departments within Monsanto such as 14 research, manufacturing and what have you about 15 PCBs? ' 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And also did it include information from the 18 medical department as well? 19 A. Certainly. 2 0 Q. And was one of your functions to inform more 2 1 senior management of the information that was 2 2 available with regard to PCBs as needed? 2 3 A. Yes. 2 4 Q. What responsibilities did you have related to 2 5 public relations? ~ TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016609 37 1 A. I don't know that -- are you speaking of public 2 relations in general or a specific department in 3 Monsanto? 4 Q. I'm referring specifically to public relations 5 matters that relate to the PCB environmental 6 problems. 7 MR. DiMURO: Object to the form. 8 A. I was responsible to see that the information 9 available in Monsanto was disseminated to the 10 public through the appropriate entities, 11 depending on the subject matter. If it was 12 highly professional medical kinds of data, I 13 would see that Dr. Kelly and his team would 14 communicate with their equivalents elsewhere, 15 whether they be in government, in industry, the 16 general public. If it had to do with the 17 environment, I made it a point to make certain 18 that the garden clubs and the fishing, Izaak 19 Walton League and the Audubon Society were tuned 2 0 in. Now, I personally was involved with some of 2 1 them, but I had others also involved. They 2 2 would attend meetings to communicate. And the 2 3 whole intent was to do it in a responsible way, 24 which meant do it as soon as the data became 2 5 crystal clear and nondebatable. Sometimes early TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016610 38 1 data is so questionable that it's best to wait 2 until the final results are in before it's 3 disseminated. 4 MR. DiMURO: Can we take a two-minute 5 break? 6 MR. TURET: Sure. 7 (Brief recess.) 8 MR. TURET: Back on the record. 9 Q. Mr. Papageorge, when we broke, I believe we were 10 talking about your role in connection with 11 public relations. I think you completed your 12 answer to that question. Were you done when we 13 broke? 14 A. I believe I finished. 15 Q. When there were press releases issued by 16 Monsanto that related to PCBs in the 1970s, did 17 you have any input into them before they were 18 released? 19 MR. DiMURO: I object to the form. 2 0 A. Yes. 2 1 Q. Was that also part of your responsibility as 2 2 manager of environmental control? 2 3 A. Yes. 2 4 Q. More broadly speaking, did correspondence and 2 5 press releases and documents in general go TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016611 39 1 through you first to insure that information was 2 accurate and consistent with regard to PCBs? 3 MR. DiMURO: Object to the form. 4 MR. LIPSHUTZ: Same objection. 5 A. Many of these documents were discussed with me 6 before they were released. This does not mean 7 that I saw all documents. 8 Q. Was it a practice that existed within Monsanto, 9 once you had assumed the manager of 10 environmental control position that documents 11 going to the media should go through you first 12 as related to PCBs? 13 MR. DiMURO: Objection to form. 14 A. I have trouble with the word "practice." It was 15 strongly suggested to the part of Monsanto that 16 issued such documents to get me involved. But 17 being independent little operations, they at 18 times could not wait for me to return from a 19 business trip or what have you, so they would 20 release it. 2 1 Q. When you talk about people who issued such 22 documents, are you talking about people within 2 3 the public relations department? . 24 A. In this instance, yes. 25 Q. As it pertains to the PCBs? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016612 40 1 A. Well, if it's a -- if it's a communication that 2 the public relations department put together for 3 issuing to, say, the news media, yes; but if 4 it's a piece of information that's intended for 5 a customer, public relations department would 6 not participate. 7 Q. Did your responsibilities as manager of 8 environmental control also include the 9 development of a strategic plan for dealing with 10 the problems that had arisen concerning PCBs? 11 MR. DiMURO: Objection to the form. 12 MR. LIPSHUTZ: Same objection. 13 A. I don't personally remember being involved in 14 developing a specific plan, no. 15 Q. Did you ultimately prepare status reports on a 16 regular basis that related to activities 17 relating to PCBs? 18 A. I did. 19 Q. When did you start to issue PCB status reports? 2 0 A. As best I recall, I think it was in 1971. 2 1 Q. What was it that prompted you to start doing 2 2 that in 1971? 2 3 A. It was primarily a situation where the Monsanto 24 individuals involved with PCB activities were in 2 5 many cases unable to attend meetings at which TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016613 41 1 the status of the PCB environmental issue would 2 be discussed. And in order to make certain that 3 all of these individuals kept tuned in, I 4 decided to put out a monthly report and 5 attempted to cover all of the areas relating to 6 the PCB environmental issues as they occurred 7 during that month. 8 Q. Now, you also mentioned that one of your 9 functions was to find out what was going on in 10 the rest of the world and you mentioned the 11 government as one of many sources of 12 information. Can you tell me more specifically 13 about your responsibilities with respect to 14 governmental agencies and entities? 15 A. Well, I don't know how to describe it other than 16 the way I've already tried to describe it. It's 17 one of exchange on a frequent basis of 18 information that the agencies had and what 19 Monsanto had, and the offer to conduct some 2 0 studies together such as sharing samples between 2 1 the government laboratories and Monsanto's 2 2 laboratories, the offer to the government 2 3 agencies samples of the, I'm going to call it 24 virgin PCB products, right off the research 2 5 department storage shelf, where the government TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016614 42 1 laboratories would be using the same standard 2 that the Monsanto laboratory would use. The 3 contacts with the government agencies would be 4 done either through individuals within each of 5 the agencies. And for a period of time there in 6 1971 and early '72, I was in close contact with 7 the group of agency representatives which called 8 themselves interdepartmental PCB task force or 9 some such title. I don't recall the exact name 10 for it. I guess that's about as best I 11 remember. 12 Q. Okay. Going back into 1970 and focusing on that 13 time period for a moment, did you have contacts, 14 be they either in person or by phone or letter 15 with the executive office of the President of 16 the United States? 17 A . Yes. 18 Q. Was that through the office of science and 19 technology? 2 0 A . Yes. 2 1 Q. How frequently did you have occasion to 2 2 communicate with them? 2 3 A. I never kept a score sheet. I would suggest 24 that it averaged out about once a month with Dr. 2 5 Ed Burger. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016615 43 1 Q. Did you ever travel down to Washington and meet 2 Dr. Burger? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Did Dr. Kelly and Dr. Wheeler ever go down to 5 meet with him as well? 6 A. I know Mr. Wheeler did. I do not know if Dr. 7 Kelly did. 8 Q. Okay. How about members of congress, senators, 9 congressmen, did you have occasion to meet with 10 or communicate with them about PCB issues? 11 A. I did speak before a committee of congress on 12 the subject of PCBs in the environment. I did 13 not, because I was not a registered lobbyist, 14 talk to the representatives or senators 15 individually. 16 Q. Did Monsanto have in its Washington office 17 lobbyists who were registered lobbyists during 18 this 1970, 1971 time period? 19 A . Yes. 2 0 Q. To your knowledge, were individuals from the 2 1 Washington office of Monsanto meeting with 2 2 congressmen and senators on PCB issues during 2 3 that period of time? 24 A. I'm aware that discussions relating to PCBs were 25 held, but I'm under an impression that they were TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016616 44 1 sort of a side subject, that meetings were not 2 held specifically for the PCB subject. 3 Q. Do you know whether the members of the 4 Washington office of Monsanto met with members 5 of congress on a regular basis with regard to a 6 broader range of issues during the 1970 to 1971 7 period? 8 MR. DiMURO: Object to the form. 9 A. I'm aware of this happening. I have no way of 10 knowing personally the frequency, the length of 11 time they would take, and who specifically was 12 involved. 13 Q. So you don't know personally whether Warren 14 Easley, for example, met with congressmen or 15 senators about PCBs or other issues during '70, 16 '7 1? 17 A. I'm under an impression that Mr. Easley was 18 taken along as a spokesman, but he did not 19 personally go to the congressmen alone. 2 0 Q. Okay. How about contacts with the Food and Drug 2 1 Administration, did you have personal 2 2 involvement with that? 2 3 A. Yes, I did. 2 4 Q. And how frequently during the '70, '71 time 25 period did you have occasion to meet with or TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016617 45 1 communicate with the FDA on PCB issues? 2 A. Again, I did not keep a tally sheet. It was 3 quite frequent, and I would suggest that in late 4 1970, all of 1971, I would meet with somebody 5 from the Food and Drug Administration on the 6 average about once a week. 7 Q. And to your knowledge during that same time 8 period was Mr. Wheeler frequently traveling down 9 to Washington to meet with people from the FDA 10 as well? 11 A. I don't know what you mean by frequently. He 12 did go to Washington alone and I also joined him 13 on many trips to Washington with the FDA people. 14 Q. Same questions with regard to Department of 15 Agriculture. How frequently did you have 16 contact with them during the '70, '71 period 17 relating to PCBs? 18 A. That was less frequent than the Food and Drug 19 Administration, and I would suggest again about 2 0 once a month. This may happen, say the first 2 1 part of the month I might meet several times and 2 2 a couple months may go by before I meet again, 2 3 so it averaged out about once a month. 2 4 Q. Were there other Federal agencies you can think 2 5 of other than the ones we've mentioned that you ' TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016618 46 1 met with or communicated with with regard to 2 PCBs during the '70, '71 time period? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. What are some of those others? 5 A. There is an Interior Department, Commerce 6 Department, Bureau of Standards, at that time 7 that was the name it had, Bureau of Standards. 8 The National Institutes of Health, Department of 9 Defense. There were others but they don't come 10 to mind at the moment. 11 Q. You also mentioned international -- efforts to 12 communicate internationally on PCB issues with 13 other governments, with other researchers. Can 14 you tell me about some of the international 15 governments that you had opportunities to speak 16 with about PCB issues in this 1970, '71 time 17 period? 18 A. Of course there were, in the United Kingdom, 19 there were several agencies there in England, 2 0 I've forgotten all their specific names. The 2 1 office of the chemist, as an example. They just 2 2 don't come to mind at the moment. There is, I 2 3 had discussions with the equivalent of Food and 2 4 Drug Administration in Sweden, I've forgotten 2 5 its title or name. In the Netherlands, the TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016619 47 1 University of Utrecht individuals, and I was 2 left with an impression that they also had some 3 kind of government agency representation in that 4 staff. That's all that comes to mind at the 5 moment. 6 Q. Did you also as part of your duties as director 7 of -- I'm sorry, as manager of environmental 8 control have responsibility for activity in 9 trade organizations or industry associations? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. What were some of the trade organizations or 12 industry associations with which you were 13 involved? 14 A. There were a couple in the electrical field, 15 electronic field, I recall I-triple E, IEEE. 16 There is another one, I think Edison something. 17 My memory is failing me here, but we did work 18 with some electrical societies, electrically 19 oriented societies. I dealt with the Society of 2 0 Plastics Industries, SPI. I can't remember any 2 1 more . 22 Q. Okay. Do you remember being involved in any 2 3 ANSI committees? 2 4 A. Yes. 25 Q. And what was that or what were those? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016620 48 1 A. American National Standards Institute sponsored 2 a committee designated as C dash 107 which 3 promulgated some standards as it related to the 4 proper handling of PCB type fluids used in 5 electrical equipment. 6 Q. You chaired that committee; right? 7 A. Yes, I did. 8 Q. Were there other committees within the American 9 National Standards Institute that you were 10 involved with? 11 A . No . 12 Q. All right. Before January 1st of 1970 did you 13 have any involvement with meetings or 14 discussions relating to -- let me withdraw that 15 question. Let me show you some documents. 16 (Brief recess.) 17 (Memo dated 3/6/69 18 marked as Exhibit No. 2 19 for identification.) 2 0 MR. TURET: Back on the record. 2 1 For the record, the document that is being 22 marked Papageorge 2 is a March 6, 1969 2 3 memorandum from WR Richard to Elmer Wheeler. 2 4 Q. Mr. Papageorge, have you ever seen this document 2 5 before today? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016621 49 1 A. Yes . 2 Q. Did -- was that document shown to you shortly 3 after you assumed the position of manager of 4 environmental control? 5 A. Yes . 6 Q. Did you have occasion to discuss it with either 7 Mr. Richard or Mr. Wheeler or both? 8 A . Both. 9 Q. Had you also read Dr. Risebrough's paper in 10 "Nature" that's referred to here? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Is it your understanding that that paper 13 referred to what's quoted here as a toxic 14 substance endangering man himself? 15 A. That was the gist of the article. 16 Q. Okay. Page 2 of the document, Mr. Richard -- is 17 it Dr. Richard? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Dr. Richard indicated that Monsanto was not 2 0 prepared to defend itself against certain 2 1 accusations, specifically the indirect 2 2 accusation of cancer. You'll see that in 2 3 paragraph (b) at the top? 24 MR. DiMURO: You're not going to read 25 the whole sentence? I don't want it to be taken TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES ( 3 14) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE ( 8 00) 2-80-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016622 50 1 out of context. If you're going to take 2 portions of the sentence, that's fine. 3 MR. TURET: I'm reading -- there are 4 three successive separate phrases in that 5 sentence with commas between them that are a 6 list. If you're going to take issue with the 7 sentence structure, it says: We are not 8 prepared to defend ourselves against these 9 accusations made of enzyme and hormone activity, 10 the isolation of enzymes or metabolic products, 11 the indirect accusation of cancer, or the 12 splitting of genes when this accusation is 13 made . 14 Q. Focusing on that part of that sentence that 15 relates to the indirect accusation of cancer, 16 did you have occasion to discuss that particular 17 issue with Mr. Wheeler or Dr. Richard? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Did you share their view or did you share -- let 2 0 me withdraw that question. Did you share the 2 1 view of Dr. Richard as of that time that 2 2 Monsanto was not prepared to defend itself 2 3 against an indirect accusation of cancer? 2 4 MR. DiMURO: I'll object, at that 2 5 time, the letter is dated March 6, 1969. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016623 51 1 MR. TURET: At the time he met with 2 Dr. Richard. 3 MR. LIPSHUTZ: What was your 4 objection? I couldn't hear you. 5 MR. DiMURO: My objection is Mr. 6 Papageorge didn't get into a position to read 7 this letter until after 1970. I just wanted to 8 clarify Craig's question. The document is dated 9 1969 . 10 Q. Did you understand my question is directed to 11 the beginning of 1970 when you saw the letter? 12 A. I believe I did. 13 Q. Do you remember what the question was? 14 A. As I understood, your question is did I 15 understand after my discussions with Mr. Wheeler 16 and Dr. Richard whether I agreed with the 17 statement that Monsanto was not prepared to 18 defend itself against the indirect accusation of 19 cancer. And my understanding is that we were 2 0 not prepared to discuss it on a medical, 2 1 technical, scientific basis. All we could say 2 2 is that there was no evidence available anywhere 2 3 to support that accusation. 24 Q. And was it your understanding that steps were 2 5 going to be taken to develop more of a medical TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016624 52 1 and scientific basis on which to defend an 2 indirect accusation of cancer? 3 MR. DiMURO: Object to the form? 4 A. Yes. It would take a lot in the way of 5 sophisticated information before a cancer cause 6 could be determined and how it might relate to 7 PCBs . 8 Q. Do you know specifically whether there were 9 steps planned to be taken to develop more of a 10 medical and scientific basis to defend against 11 the accusation of cancer? 12 MR. DiMURO: Object to the form 13 again. You can answer it. 14 A. There were animal studies being conducted to 15 determine the effect of PCBs on these test 16 animals. And that's one way that at that time 17 was used to determine the possible effect the 18 test chemical might have on humans. 19 Q. Did either Dr. Richard or Mr. Wheeler tell you 2 0 that testing was undertaken to establish chronic 2 1 toxicity data with regard to PCBs? 2 2 A. Yes. 2 3 Q. Did either of them tell you why further chronic 2 4 testing was being undertaken at this point? 2 5 MR. DiMURO: Object to the form. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES ( 3 14 ) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE ( 800 ) 2.80-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016625 53 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. What was their explanation? 3 A. The explanation was to get a better idea what, 4 if any, effect PCBs could have on living 5 creatures, whether they be test rats and mice or 6 human beings or whatever. 7 Q. Did you have any understanding following your 8 conversations with Mr. Wheeler and with Dr. 9 Richard as to whether chronic testing had been 10 done previously on Aroclor 1254 in particular? 11 MR. DiMURO: Which conversations are 12 we talking about, conversations after this 13 document or at any time? 14 MR. TURET: The tutorials he referred 15 to with them at which this document was 16 discussed. 17 MR. DiMURO: I don't think he said 18 this document was discussed at a particular 19 tutorial. I'm trying to get a time fix. 2 0 Q. Do you understand my question? If you don't 2 1 understand, I'm happy to rephrase it. 2 2 A. Would you rephrase it? 2 3 Q. Sure. Was the document that's in front of you 24 as Papageorge 2 discussed with Mr. Wheeler in 2 5 one of the tutorials as you described them? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES ( 314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE ( 800) 2-80-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016626 54 1 A . Yes . 2 Q. Okay. Was the same document discussed with Dr. 3 Richard in one of the tutorials you described? 4 A.. Yes. 5 Q. Were those at the beginning of 1970? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Now, during those tutorials -- withdraw the 8 question. After those tutorials with Dr. 9 Richard and Mr. Wheeler, did you have an 10 understanding as to whether chronic toxicity 11 testing had been done to Aroclor 1254 12 previously? 13 A. My hesitation is due to the fact that the tests 14 were done in two steps. There was the 15 subchronic testing, the so-called 90-day test 16 which is done to establish an exposure level 17 that will give the maximum dose of the chemical 18 tested to the test animal without killing off 19 all the animals so when it comes time later to 2 0 conduct the lifetime feeding study. At this 2 1 point in time I don't recall when the subchronic 2 2 90-day study was done and when the lifetime 2 3 study was begun. So in this interval of time 24 there was serious consideration given to either 2 5 or both of those. The intent was to continue on TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES ( 3 14) 644-2 191 * TOLL FREE ( 8 00) 2-80-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016627 55 1 and conduct the kind of study that was done at 2 that time for evaluating a material for food and 3 cosmetic use. 4 Q. Just to clarify, the testing that was then 5 underway was with Industrial Bio-Test 6 Laboratories, Inc.? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Putting those tests aside, which I understand 9 were underway by the time you came on the scene 10 as manager of environmental control, before 11 those tests were begun, do you know from your 12 meetings with Dr. Richard and Mr. Wheeler 13 whether chronic testing had been done on Aroclor 14 12 54? 15 A. There were none. 16 Q. Down below in the same document, there is a 17 statement that if chlorinated -- in the 18 paragraph begins, but, we can't easily -- the 19 third sentence says, "if chlorinated biphenyl is 2 0 shown to have some long-term enzyme or hormone 2 1 activity in the PPM range, the applications with 2 2 consumer exposure would cause difficulty." What 2 3 applications with consumer exposure were 2 4 envisioned to cause particular difficulty if 2 5 that proved to be true? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES ( 3 14 ) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE ( 800) 2-80-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016628 56 1 A. I'm certain that I can't give you all the 2 potentials, but the one that comes to mind 3 immediately was the carbonless copy paper 4 application. Or the use in inks, or the use in 5 adhesives, the latter two both of which could 6 occur, say, in bread wrappers. So you would get 7 consumer exposure under those conditions. I'm 8 sure there are many others. 9 Q. In the next paragraph Dr. Richard states that 10 either Dr. Risebrough's position is attacked and 11 discounted or we will eventually have to 12 withdraw product from end uses which have 13 exposure problems. Based on your conversations 14 and tutorials with Dr. Richard and Mr. Wheeler, 15 what steps did you understand were being taken 16 to attack or discount Dr. Risebrough's position? 17 A. Well, the ongoing toxicity studies at IBT 18 . Laboratories is an attempt to get data to better 19 understand the toxicity of PCBs. I suppose, a 2 0 form of response to Dr. Risebrough was the fact 2 1 that Mr. Wheeler and I actually went and visited 22 Dr. Risebrough at the Berkeley campus of the 2 3 University of California and discussed his 24 findings. That occurred in early 1970. 25 Q. Any other steps that come to mind? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES ( 3 14) 644-2 19 1 * TOLL FREE ( 800) 2-80-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016629 57 1 A. Not at the moment, no. 2 Q. In your meeting with, I think you said you and 3 Mr. Wheeler met with Dr. Risebrough? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Based on that meeting did you find fault with 6 Dr. Risebrough's findings? 7 MR. DiMURO: Object to the form. You 8 can answer it. 9 A. I don't know that we can say we found fault. We 10 had a good discussion with Dr. Risebrough. We 11 expressed our thoughts based on Monsanto's 12 decades of experience with PCBs. Dr. Risebrough 13 appeared to me to be very receptive to some of 14 thoughts that were shared with him in terms of 15 the evidence that he felt he had. I personally 16 walked away from that meeting with the 17 impression that Dr. Risebrough really down deep 18 suspected DDT. The PCBs just happened to show 19 up in his samples as he analyzed for DDT. 2 0 Q. Was there something that Dr. Risebrough 2 1 specifically said that led you to that 22 conclusion? 2 3 A. I don't remember his exact words, but to the 24 effect something like, well, you know, those DDT 25 levels are so high, you can't ignore them, TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016630 58 1 comments like this. He's the one that kept 2 bringing up DDT. 3 Q. Okay. The next sentence in that document from 4 Dr. Richard says, quote, that since Risebrough's 5 paper in "Nature" December 1968 has just been 6 published, it is timely, perhaps imperative that 7 this paper and its implications be discussed 8 with certain customers. Did Dr. Richard explain 9 to you in his tutorial what he meant by certain 10 customers? 11 A. As best I remember, he was recommending 12 contacting the customers of Monsanto who were 13 the biggest users.of PCBs. 14 Q. And was the suggestion that other customers 15 would not be contacted? 16 A. Not initially until more data came about. 17 Q. Did Dr. Richard explain to you during his 18 tutorials with you whether well prepared 19 discussions had taken place with the legal 2 0 department based on his memo? 2 1 A. I don't know that that came up as a specific 22 subject. It's customary in Monsanto to involve 2 3 their legal staff for many, many things. 24 They're part of the team, in other words. 2 5 Q. Did you happen to have a tutorial with anybody TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES ( 3 14 ) 64 4-2 191 * TOLL FREE ( 800 ) 2-8 0-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016631 59 1 from the legal staff? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Was that Mr. Park? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Anybody else? 6 A. No, not in the tutorial phase. 7 Q. But the tutorial we're talking about, the 8 beginning of 1970 phase when you were learning 9 the job of manager of environmental control? 10 A. That is correct. 11 Q. Did you have a tutorial with Dr. Keller or Dr. 12 Tucker? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Both? 15 A. Separately and collectively, yes. 16 (Memo dated 3/10/69 17 marked as Exhibit No. 3 18 for identification.) 19 Q. For the record, the document being marked as 2 0 Papageorge 3 is a March 10, 1969, memorandum 2 1 from Dr. Richard to the file, Bates number MAE 2 2 053277 to 279. 2 3 Mr. Papageorge, I'm not going to ask 24 you about too much in this one. If you could 2 5 flip to the third page. If you wish to read it TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016632 60 1 all, you're welcome to do so. I'm not going to 2 ask you about the first couple of pages. There 3 is a discussion that begins, I guess the second 4 paragraph down says, defense seems to have these 5 elements, and there are Roman numerals one 6 through five. First of all, did you see this 7 document during your tutorials with Dr. Richard? 8 A. Yes, I remember it. 9 Q. Did he explain to you what he meant by "defense 10 seems to have these elements"? 11 A. Yes. When he used the word "defense" he was 12 really talking about getting more information, 13 good information regarding anything relating to 14 PCBs and the environment. 15 Q. Is it fair to say that "defense" means defense 16 against the accusations that had come from Dr. 17 Risebrough and others? 18 MR. DiMURO: Object to the form. You 19 can answer. 2 0 A. I can only share with you, sir, what I got from 2 1 Dr. Richard when I sat down with him. And my 22 understanding was that he wanted to get as much 2 3 in the way of good hard data that when the issue 2 4 of PCBs arose at any time we would be in a 2 5 position to respond with some good data. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES ( 3 14 ) 64 4-2 191 * TOLL FREE ( 8 00 ) 2-8 0-DEPO _ WATER PCB-SD0000016633 61 1 Q. Okay. 2 (Minutes of meeting 3 marked as Exhibit No. 4 4 for identification.) 5 Q. For the record, Papageorge 4 is -- states at the 6 top, Minutes of Aroclor, guote, Ad Hoc, close 7 quotes, Committee, first meeting, dated 8 September 5, 1969, Bates number MAE 021976 to 9 79 . 10 Mr. Papageorge, have you seen this 11 document before today? 12 A . I have. 13 Q. Was this one of the documents that was shared 14 with you during your tutorials with Dr. Farrar 15 or Dr. Richard or Mr. Wheeler? 16 A . Yes. 17 Q. What was your understanding of what the ad hoc 18 committee was? 19 A. These individuals were appointed to collectively 2 0 sit down and address the evolving PCB 2 1 environmental issue and advise management as to 2 2 what was the then current knowledge and 2 3 eventually to advise management on how to 2 4 address this issue. 25 Q. By this issue, you mean the PCBs? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016634 62 1 A. PCBs and the environment. 2 Q. First of all, which of the gentlemen that I 3 mentioned before did you discuss this document 4 with during your tutorials? 5 A. Well, of course, Mr. Wheeler, Mr. Richard, those 6 are the two principal individuals. 7 Q. And did those gentlemen share with you that the 8 three objectives listed at the top of that page 9 had been agreed to by the ad hoc committee? 10 MR. DiMURO: Object to the form. You 11 can answer. 12 A. Yes, I recall that they felt those were 13 reasonable objectives. 14 Q. And as of the time you became manager of 15 environmental control, which I guess was three 16 months or so after this meeting, were you aware 17 that -- let me withdraw that question. Let me 18 refer you to Page 3 of these notes, the 19 paragraph numbered eight, "Environmental 2 0 Contamination by Customers"? 2 1 A. I see it. 2 2 Q. Did you have occasion to discuss with Dr. 2 3 Richard or Mr. Wheeler the issue of highway 24 paints? 25 A. Yes, among others. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016635 63 1 Q. Was it your understanding that was one of the 2 applications that was particularly of concern? 3 MR. DiMURO: Object to the form. 4 A. It was an application that was perceived to be a 5 good example of a use in which the PCBs are 6 directly introduced into the environment. I 7 personally don't know that I would call it a 8 particular concern. It was just a good example 9 to describe an open, quote unquote, use. 10 Q. Is it fair to say it was an application that was 11 of concern because of its direct possibility of 12 emission into the environment? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Was it your understanding that a million pounds 15 a year was a substantial quantity of PCBs for 16 one application as of 1970? 17 MR. DiMURO: Objection to form. 18 MR. LIPSHUTZ: Same objection. 19 Q. Did you have an understanding? 2 0 A. My understanding was based on the fact that 85 2 1 million pounds a year of PCBs were produced by 22 Monsanto and a million of that went into this 2 3 paint, but that didn't strike me and doesn't to 24 this day strike me as a major use. 25 Q. Was that 85 million pounds of PCBs that were TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016636 64 1 used for open applications in 1970? 2 A. No . 3 Q. What number of million pounds were used for open 4 applications at that time? 5 A. I don't have an exact number. 6 MR. O'CONNOR: Let me object in terms 7 of are you talking about sales or uses by the 8 ultimate customer? I'm a little confused. You 9 need to clarify. 10 MR. TURET: Sales. 11 A. The only measure I personally have is that when 12 the open uses were terminated and the heat 13 transfer uses were terminated, the use of PCBs 14 dropped to about half from 85 million down to 15 say 40 million or so. That's the only measure I 16 have as to what possibly could have been used in 17 open uses. I don't have any other data. 18 Q. Can you flip back to the second page of those 19 minutes? At the very top of Page 2 at the top 20 numbered four, did Dr. Richard or1 Mr. Wheeler 2 1 share with you their concerns about doing 22 corroboration of testing of samples of PCBs? 23 MR. DiMURO: Object to the form. 24 A. I don't remember any concern about that. In 25 fact, it was, as I remember, it was really TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016637 65 1 encouraged. This is one way for Monsanto to 2 find out where are those PCBs out in the 3 environment without having to send its own 4 people out to get samples. 5 (Executive summary 6 marked as Exhibit No. 5 7 for identification.) 8 Q. For the record, Papageorge 5 is an October 29, 9 1969, Executive Summary, PCB Pollution. Mr. 10 Papageorge, have you seen this document before 11 today? 12 A. Yes, I have. 13 Q. Is this also one of the documents discussed 14 during your tutorials? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Was that with Mr. Wheeler? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. With Dr. Richard as well? 19 A. No, just Mr. Wheeler. 2 0 Q. Who put this executive summary together? 2 1 A. The ad hoc committee which we discussed 2 2 previously worked and prepared this document. 2 3 Q. Is this their final report if you know? 24 MR. DiMURO: Object to the form. 2 5 A. It seems to me as best as I can recall that TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016638 66 1 there was another report that contained many of 2 these paragraphs in it but contained a little 3 more detail information. 4 Q. Is it your understanding from your tutorial 5 sessions that the information that was contained 6 in this executive summary was information that 7 was gathered by the ad hoc committee? 8 A. Yes . 9 Q. So to the extent there is information in this 10 executive summary that reflects quantity of 11 sales or dollars in sales or dollars in profits, 12 is that information that was gathered by the ad 13 hoc committee? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Did Dr. Richard explain to you -- I'm sorry, it 16 was Mr. Wheeler that discussed this with you. 17 Did Mr. Wheeler explain to you what he meant on 18 Page 2 about legal responsibility under, "Effect 19 on Monsanto"? 2 0 A. We did talk about that item and it had to do 2 1 with the general subject of Monsanto's legal 4 2 2 responsibility regarding any product and its 2 3 uses. I don't recall any specific highlight 2 4 here as it relates to PCBs only. 2 5 Q. Did Mr. Wheeler make any reference to legal TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016639 67 1 liabilities for personal injuries caused by 2 . PCBs ? 3 A. We talked about the legal liability of injuries 4 relating to any chemicals sold by Monsanto, 5 nothing specific to PCBs, again. 6 Q. What was the nature of discussion about 7 chemicals manufactured by Monsanto? 8 A. Well, we had to package them properly, warn 9 against any health effects, give guidance on 10 proper handling, assist in any transportation 11 accidents as examples, that kind of thing. 12 Q. During your tutorial sessions with either Mr. 13 Wheeler or Dr. Richard or any of the others whom y 14 you've mentioned, was there a discussion about 15 the wide range of paints and coatings that are 16 referred to on Page 2, No. 5? 17 MR. DiMURO: Could we have the 18 question read back by the court reporter, 19 please? 2 0 (Question read) 21 MR. DiMURO: Objection to form. 22 A. I don't recall our discussion giving any unique 2 3 attention to that particular item, that being no 24 different than for other uses of PCBs. 25 Q. That's your answer? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016640 68 1 A . Yes, sir. 2 Q. On the third page there is a reference to 3 Monsanto outside statements which says, letter 4 sent to electrical customers regarding problem. 5 Do you remember discussing that with Mr. 6 Wheeler? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. What letter is that referring to? 9 A. This was a letter dated March, 1969, as I 10 recall, bringing the electrical customers, and I 11 believe there was some other large users in that 12 group in addition to the electrical use, 13 up-to-date and referring to Dr. Risebrough's 14 findings as reported in the news media. 15 Q. And your recollection is that was March of 1969? 16 A . Yes, sir. 17 Q. I may have overlooked that letter, but does 18 counsel know whether that letter was produced as 19 part of the health and safety documents? 2 0 MR. DiMURO: I don't know. 2 1 MR. DAVIDSON: Probably. 22 MR. DiMURO: That's if, in fact, he's 23 referring to the right letter. He thinks it's 24 the March '69 letter. It may have a different 2 5 date . TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016641 69 1 Q. Under the next section says, presentation to 2 CDC. Is that the corporate development 3 committee? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. What was the corporate development committee at 6 the time? 7 A. This consisted of the top executive officer in 8 Monsanto, and the senior vice presidents of the 9 corporation. 10 Q. Was that entity at the time different than a 11 board of directors? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Do you have an understanding of what the 14 corporate development committee's area of 15 responsibility was specifically as it would 16 pertain to PCBs? - 17 A. I don't know that the area -- that PCBs is any 18 different than any other product line within 19 Monsanto. They had the ultimate authority to 2 0 make decisions relating to Monsanto's businesses 2 1 and the execution of activities related to those 2 2 businesses. The chairman and chief executive 2 3 officer was also the chairman of the board, so 2 4 there is this connection with the board of 25 directors. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016642 70 1 (Out1ine 2 marked as Exhibit No. 6 3 for identification.) 4 Q. For the record, Papageorge 6 is a rough draft, 5 November 10, 1969, Outline, PCB Environmental 6 Pollution Abatement Plan, Bates No. MAE 023703 7 through 726. 8 Mr. Papageorge, have you seen this 9 document before today? 10 A . Yes, I have. 11 Q. And is this also a document that was discussed 12 during one of your tutorials? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. With whom? 15 A. Mr. Wheeler. 16 Q. What's your understanding of who prepared this 17 document? 18 A. It appears to be the ad hoc committee's draft of 19 the text that would be shared with the corporate 2 0 development committee. 21 Q. Is that understanding based on your meeting with 22 Mr. Wheeler or something else? 2 3 A. Primarily from what Mr. Wheeler told me. 24 Q. Now, on Page 3 there is an identification under 25 Roman numeral two, says problem, damage to the TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016643 71 1 ecological system by contamination from the 2 polychlorinated biphenyl, PCB. Is that your 3 understanding of the problem being addressed 4 with regard to PCBs? 5 A. I don't think I understand your question. 6 Q. Well, that statement does not refer to damage or 7 -- let's rephrase that -- does not refer to 8 alleged health hazards to humans. Is it your 9 understanding that the problem being addressed 10 by the ad hoc committee was limited to damage to 11 the ecological system by contamination from 12 PCBs? 13 A. In that particular part, yes. 14 Q. What particular part? 15 A. Roman numeral two, the problem area that was to 16 be covered at a meeting with the CDC. 17 Q. So you're saying that this report only relates 18 to the problem that was to be raised with the 19 corporate development committee at the next 20 meeting? 2 1 MR. DiMURO: I'm going to object to 22 the form. 2 3 A. I don't know what you mean by the next meeting. 24 Q. Okay. I'll clarify when we come back in a few 2 5 minutes. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016644 PAGE 72 MISSING WATER PCB-SD0000016645 PAGE 73 MISSING WATER PCB-SD0000016646 74 1 officially notified about known effects nor do 2 our labels carry this information? 3 A. That meant the effect on creatures. The known 4 effects as reported in '69 included Risebrough's 5 contentions and other reports that came out of 6 some other study groups, Cornell University 7 study on the falcon, for example. 8 Q. Okay. Am I understanding you correctly that 9 those issues had not been brought to the 10 attention of some of the customers of Monsanto 11 and that those issues were not addressed on the 12 labels of PCBs? 13 A. That's right. 14 Q. Now, there is also the sentence in that report 15 that says, quote, those are only a few of the 16 possible legal implications which would best be 17 covered by the legal department. Did you and 18 Mr. Wheeler talk about any of the other legal 19 implications? 2 0 A. I don't remember any discussion, any further 2 1 discussion on the legal implications. 22 Q. On Page 6 there is a statement that, down under 23 Roman numeral seven, quote, although Monsanto is 24 most probably responsible for the U.S. 2 5 contamination and jointly responsible with MCL TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES ' (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016647 PAGE 75 MISSING WATER PCB-SD0000016648 76 1 all PCBs? 2 A. No one was supporting that one. 3 Q. Is it your understanding that there was 4 unanimous recommendation that alternative C be 5 chosen? 6 A. Yes. 7 (Minutes of meeting 8 marked as Exhibit No. 7 9 for identification.) 10 Q. For the record, Papageorge 7 is November 17, 11 1969, minutes of the corporate development 12 committee. Mr. Papageorge, have you seen this 13 document before? 14 A. Yes, I have. 15 Q. Is that also one of the documents that you 16 reviewed during your tutorial sessions? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. With whom? 19 A. Mr. Wheeler. 2 0 Q. And do you know who DW Miller was or is? 2 1 A. He was one of Monsanto's attorneys. 22 Q. Do you know what was referred to under legal 2 3 aspects, number three, testing program to 24 determine the possible escape of PCBs from 25 TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEP0 WATER PCB-SD0000016649 77 1 MR. DiMURO: Where are you reading 2 from, Craig? 3 MR. TURET: I'm sorry, the second 4 page, legal aspects, number three. 5 A. Yeah, I see that. I don't understand your 6 question. That's Mr. Miller's suggestion to the 7 corporate development committee that that item 8 be looked into. 9 Q. Do you know whether tests of that type were, in 10 fact, undertaken? 11 A. As possible escape from plasticizers, no they 12 were not undertaken. 13 Q. Do you know whether at the corporate development 14 committee that recommendation was approved by 15 the CDC? 16 A. It was not approved because they approved a 17 discontinuance of sales to plasticizers, so they 18 came up with a different approach. 19 Q. Do you know one way or another whether these two 2 0 alternatives were viewed as mutually exclusive 2 1 during the CDC meeting? 22 MR. DiMURO: I'll object to the 2 3 form. 24 A. I don't know that. 2 5 Q. During your discussion with -- during your TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016650 78 1 tutorial sessions with Mr. Wheeler, did you 2 discuss the part down below that in plasticizer 3 uses, evidence is not available as to whether 4 Aroclors escape from end products either through 5 leaching or by dispersal and burning? 6 A. It was mentioned. I don't know that we had any 7 lengthy discussion. It was a well understood 8 piece of information. 9 Q. It was well understood that that evidence was 10 not available? 11 A. That' s right. 12 Q. On the final page there is a list of 12 items. 13 Is this essentially the plan of action that was 14 being proposed to the CDC? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And is it your understanding that the CDC 17 approved that plan of action? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Where it says appoint a project manager up at 2 0 the top, was that William Papageorge? 2 1 A. Yes . 22 Q. Where it refers to a task force from members of 2 3 each business group plus medical, law, 24 engineering and manufacturing, did you, in fact, 25 work with a task force on PCB issues? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016651 79 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. That's not the same task force as the ad hoc 3 committee; correct? 4 A. That is correct. 5 Q. Who was on the task force as it ultimately was 6 constituted? 7 A. It was the -- it consisted of the directors of 8 the two Monsanto business groups, Mr. Bergen and 9 Mr. Springgate, their sales directors, Mr. 10 Schalk and -- his name escapes me, it will come 11 back to me later -- director of marketing. Dr. 12 Farrar and Dr. Richard representing research. 13 There were the directors of manufacturing, Mr. 14 Savage, and I've forgotten the other 15 individual. We had a representative out of the 16 Monsanto Corporate Engineering Department, Bob 17 Kountz, K-O-U-N-T-Z. Mr. John representing 18 public relations activities, Mr. Park 19 representing legal department, Mr. Wheeler 2 0 representing the medical department. I believe 2 1 that covers all the functions. Now, either they 22 or their lieutenants would participate, together 2 3 or singly. I forgot Mr. Keller, Dr. Keller from 24 analytical research. I believe that covers it. 25 Q. Dr. Tucker on it? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016652 80 1 A. Well, he was Dr. Keller's lieutenant, his second 2 in position. 3 Q. No. 5 on that list of 12 items says, develop and 4 implement new packaging systems for Aroclor 1254 5 and 1260. Is that a euphemism for changing the 6 labels on those items? 7 A. No, it's not a euphemism. The intent was to 8 design a system for packaging these Aroclors 9 that was less apt to cause leakage and overfills 10 and sloppy, dirty conditions that existed prior 11 to this recommendation. It's part of the 12 attempt to keep it out of the environment. 13 Q. Down at the bottom, second paragraph from the 14 bottom where it says, conclusions, says quote, 15 in light of the recent and developing evidence 16 of a possible threat to certain species of bird 17 and aquatic life, we should plan to discontinue 18 the manufacture of Aroclors 1254 and 1260. Was 19 that also endorsed at this 11/17/69 meeting, to 2 0 your knowledge? 21 A. Yes. 2 2 Q. Is that for all applications? 2 3 A. At that time, yes. 2 4 (Presentation to field sales 25 marked as Exhibit No. 8 TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016653 81 1 for identification.) 2 Q. For the record, Papageorge 8 is a, quote, 3 Presentation to Field Sales, personal and 4 confidential, Bates number MAE 033475 through 5 484 . 6 Mr. Papageorge, have you ever seen 7 this document before? 8 A. Yes, I have. 9 Q. Was this one of the documents discussed in your 10 tutorials? 11 A. No, this was developed -- this was developed 12 early in.1970 about the time I was undergoing 13 the tutorials, so this wasn't available for 14 discussion with my tutors, if you will. 15 Q. And do you know who prepared it? 16 A. I am having difficulty recalling just who 17 prepared it. It is written for the plasticizer 18 application customer. That's all I can say 19 about it. 2 0 Q. Did anything within this document that you've 2 1 been shown come to you first for editing or 22 approval? 2 3 MR. DiMURO: I'm just going to object 24 to it. I don't think he's gone through it. If 25 you want him to read the entire document, we can TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016654 82 1 do that. 2 MR. TURET: Skim it. 3 Q. Did you have substantive input into this 4 document before it was drafted? 5 A. Not to my recollection. 6 Q. Flipping to Page 3, Mr. Papageorge, in the third 7 sentence it says, we will recommend that your 8 distributors mail a similar letter promptly to 9 each of their Aroclor customers. Do you know 10 one way or on other, sir, whether ultimately 11 distributors were instructed to send letters to 12 Aroclor customers relating to the withdrawal of 13 PCBs from the market? 14 MR. DiMURO: Object to the form. 15 A. Yes, they were. 1 6 Q. Next sentence says, copies of our letter will be 17 made available to our distributors in quantities 18 sufficient to meet their needs. Do you know 19 whether that was done? 2 0 A. Yes, it was. 2 1 Q. Did you participate in that effort at all? 22 A. You mean did I stuff envelopes and take them to 2 3 the mail office? 24 Q. Did you have any substantive input into the 25 drafting of the letters? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016655 83 1 MR. DiMURO: That were sent to the 2 distributors? 3 Q. That were sent to the distributors? 4 A. I was in a position where I reviewed drafts of 5 letters that were going to distributors as well 6 as to customers. 7 Q. Do you know whether the practice was actually 8 implemented to supply copies of letters to the 9 distributors for them to send onto customers? 10 A. I was -11 MR. LIPSHUTZ: Object to form. 12 A. I was led to believe that that was done. 13 Q. The sentence after that says, it's not our 14 responsibility to alert our distributors' 15 customers. Do you have any understanding as to 16 what the basis for that sentence is? 17 A. It's primarily one of we are not aware of who 18 the distributors' customers were. Therefore, we 19 were in no position to address anything to 2 0 anybody. So under those conditions how can a 2 1 company like Monsanto be responsible? 2 2 Q. Now, the last sentence in that paragraph says, 2 3 quote, to explain the action to our distributors 24 we have visited the head offices of Central 2 5 Solvents and American Mineral Spirits, period. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016656 84 1 Did you personally visit the head offices of 2 Central Solvents or American Mineral Spirits? 3 A. I did not, no. 4 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to whether that 5 .meeting actually took place with Central 6 Solvents and American Mineral Spirits? 7 A. I was so informed. 8 Q. Who informed you that a meeting took place with 9 American Mineral Spirits? 10 A. As far as I remember, it was Mr. Walter Schalk. 11 MR. LIPSHUTZ: I'm sorry, I didn't 12 hear your response. 13 THE WITNESS: Walter Schalk, 14 S-C-H-A-L-K. 15 Q. Did Mr. Schalk tell you that he had personally 16 visited American Mineral Spirits? 17 A. I don't remember that, no. 18 Q. You just remember generally that he told you a 19 meeting had occurred? 2 0 A. Yes. 2 1 Q. Do you remember anything else Mr. Schalk told 2 2 you about discussions with American Mineral 2 3 Spirits on this issue of withdrawal from the 24 market of open applications? 2 5 A. All I remember is that the two, Central Solvents TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016657 85 1 and American Mineral Spirits, were both 2 responsive and they were willing to go along 3 with it. 4 Q. Do you know whether Mr. Schalk is deceased? 5 A. I don't think he is. I haven't heard 6 otherwise. He's not deceased to my knowledge. 7 Q. Do you know, Mr. Papageorge, whether Central 8 Solvents and American Mineral Spirits were the 9 only distributors of Aroclor PCB products for 10 Monsanto? 11 A. At that time - 12 MR. LIPSHUTZ: Let me object to the 13 form of that question. 14 A. At that time they were the two that were still 15 active. 16 Q. Were there other distributors that had 17 previously distributed Aroclor products but were 18 no longer active by 1970? 19 A. That's my understanding. 2 0 Q. Do you know one way or the other whether 2 1 American Mineral Spirits had a particular 2 2 geographic area in which it was a sole 2 3 distributor for Monsanto products? 2 4 A. I don't remember the details, no. 2 5 Q. Do you know whether there was anybody mentioned TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016658 86 1 to you as the person who was the primary contact 2 with American Mineral Spirits? 3 A . No . 4 Q. How about at Central Solvents? 5 A. I do not remember. 6 Q. If you would flip ahead to Page 6? 7 MR. LIPSHUTZ: Craig, off the 8 record? 9 MR. TURET: Yes. 10 (Discussion off the record) 11 Q. You'll see at the bottom of Page 6, Mr. 12 Papageorge, there is a discussion about when a 13 customer calls a regional office about the 14 letter that's going out announcing the 15 withdrawal of Aroclor PCB products from the 16 market, and there is a list of DOs and DON'Ts 17 and likely customer questions that,- it states 18 that are approved by Jim Springgate and our 19 legal department. Jim Springgate was who? 2 0 A. He was the director of the business group that 2 1 marketed PCBs as plasticizers. 22 Q. The legal department, presumably we're speaking 23 of Mr. Park? 24 A. Don't know. 2 5 Q. Okay. Flipping on to Page 8 it says, beware of TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016659 87 1 decreased sales to any account after the letter 2 is sent out. If you suspect this, your plan of 3 attack could be, colon, and there is a proposed 4 set of questions and answers. Do you see those? 5 A. I see it. 6 Q. You see down in the middle, the recommendation 7 is that the Monsanto sales representative ask 8 whether the customer has switched to a 9 replacement for the particular product? 10 A. I see that. 11 Q. Then you see if the customer says yes, the 12 Monsanto person is to probe to find out what it 13 is and is it inferior to Aroclor, is it really 14 not a contaminant, too. Mr. Papageorge, do you 15 have any understanding of why that matters if 16 the product is being pulled from the market as 17 an environmental contaminant? 18 A. No, I don't. 19 Q. Do you have any understanding as to whether 2 0 that's an attempt to boost sales of Aroclor 2 1 products before they're no longer offered for 2 2 sale? 2 3 MR. DiMURO: Object to the form. 2 4 A. Not to my knowledge. 2 5 Q. At the bottom, quote that's anticipated from the TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016660 88 1 customer is no, but I'm living off inventory 2 till my boys can get a replacement and there is 3 a suggested response. Do you see any suggested 4 response that would advise the customer not to 5 use inventory? 6 MR. DiMURO: Object to the form. You 7 can answer it. 8 MR. LIPSHUTZ: I'll join that 9 objection. 10 A. I'm having some difficulty responding because I 11 interpret the proposed dialogue as one of 12 assisting the customer finding a replacement in 13 the hopes of Monsanto that that replacement will 14 be a Monsanto product. 15 Q. Was it your understanding, Mr. Papageorge, at 16 the time that the Aroclors were being withdrawn 17 from the market that it was likely customers 18 would have Aroclor products in inventory that 19 would be used up before they switched to other 2 0 products? 2 1 A. Yes, that's a given. 22 Q. Flip ahead to Page 9. There is a section 2 3 entitled "competition." 24 A. I see it. 25 Q. And the statement to the sales representative of TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016661 89 1 Monsanto is, remember that Aroclor plasticizers 2 are outstanding products. They are inert, 3 oxidatively and chemically stable, give good 4 adhesion, et cetera. I can read this word for 5 word. In other words they're used because of 6 performance. Again, do you have an 7 understanding of why the sales rep would be 8 reminded of the virtues of Aroclor products in 9 response to a letter that's withdrawing it from 10 the market? 11 A. There was no letter withdrawing from the market 12 when this -- all it said is that the letter 13 said that PCBs of a certain type are being 14 discovered by some laboratories in some 15 samples. There was nothing up to this point 16 that said, we are withdrawing from these 17 applications. 18 Q. So this was at the time where just the issue of 19 environmental contamination has been raised? 2 0 A. Correct, the presence in the environment. 2 1 That's all that was known, and only of a certain 2 2 type, not all the PCBs. So this question and 2 3 answer sheet tries to address the situation 2 4 where, hey, we don't know enough to take drastic 25 action. There are some good things in Aroclors TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES ( 3 14) 644-2 191 * TOLL FREE (800) 2'80-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016662 90 1 or PCBs that you may want to continue benefiting 2 from. That's all this says. It doesn't say a 3 thing about withdrawing as yet. 4 Q. As of the time this was proposed, you said early 5 1970? 6 A. Yeah, at the time the letter to customers went 7 out in February of '70, or thereabouts, that's 8 what this indicates. 9 Q. At the time that this was prepared it was 1 0 already decided that the letter was going to go 11 out withdrawing Aroclors from the market, wasn't 12 it? 13 MR. DiMURO: I'll object. 14 A. No, it wasn't. 15 Q. Had the corporate development committee already 16 decided that manufacturing was going to cease? 17 MR. DiMURO: Manufacture of what, any 18 Aroclors, Aroclor with PCBs? 19 Q. Do you understand my question? 2 0 A. Yes, at that particular time - 2 1 MR. DiMURO: I'll object to the 2 2 f orm . 2 3 A. Your timing is off. 24 MR. LIPSHUTZ: Same objection. 25 Q. Help me to understand it. We had gone through ' TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016663 91 1 the corporate development committee meeting 2 November 17 of '69? 3 A. Correct. 4 Q. Where we should plan -- the conclusion was we ' 5 should plan to discontinue the manufacture of 6 Aroclor 1254 and 1260? 7 A. Doesn't say anything about 1242, 1248, all the 8 other PCBs. 9 Q. So is it your interpretation of this document 10 that it is - 11 MR. DiMURO: Which document? 1 2 Q. The document that's been marked Papageorge 8, 13 that it is encouraging -- that it is encouraging 14 -- I lost my line. Let me start that question 15 again. Is it your understanding that the intent 16 of this presentation to field sales was to 17 promote sales of the other Aroclor products but 18 not Aroclor 1254 and 1260? 19 A. No, the intent was to continue to support the 2 0 uses of these PCBs until further information 2 1 indicated that it was not wise to do so. That's 2 2 all this does. In other words, Mr. Customer, 2 3 don't panic. You've got a good product in your 2 4 product, keep using it. That's the intent of 2 5 this document. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016664 92 1 MR. TURET: Okay. I have no further 2 questions about it. 3 MR. O'CONNOR: We're going to take a 4 break and get those documents to you. 5 MR. LIPSHUTZ: I appreciate it. What 6 time are we going to reconvene? 7 (Lunch recess.) 8 (Management plan 9 marked as Exhibit No. 9 10 for identification.) 11 MR. TURET: Back on the record. 12 Q. For the record, Mr. Papageorge is being shown a 13 document that's been marked Papageorge 9 which 14 is a "Rough Draft Management Plan PCB 15 Environmental Problem," Bates number MAE 032890 16 dash 901. 17 Have you ever seen the document that 18 has been marked as Papageorge 9 before? 19 A. Yes, I have. 2 0 Q. What is it? 2 1 A. This is the rough draft of a management plan 2 2 addressing the PCB environmental problem. 2 3 Q. Who prepared it if you know? 2 4 A. As best as I recall, this is the ad hoc 25 committee we discussed earlier. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016665 93 1 Q. So if it was from the ad hoc committee, do you 2 have any understanding as to when this would 3 have been put together? 4 A. The more I study this document, I realize that 5 my answer is incorrect. This appears to be a 6 document that I prepared. 7 Q. What leads you to believe it was one you that 8 you prepared, sir? 9 A. As I read it, it includes activities which I 10 shared with the CDC or its successor, CAC in 11 Monsanto. 12 Q. I didn't realize you were finished. I'm sorry. 13 Would you flip to Page 3? I take it that the 14 paragraph that appears under objectives is your 15 articulation of - 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. -- the objective? 18 A. Uh-huh. 19 Q. No further questions about that one. 2 0 (Minutes of meeting 2 1 marked as Exhibit No. 10 2 2 for identification.) 2 3 Q. For the record, Papageorge 10 is the minutes of 24 a meeting of the corporate management committee 2 5 May 11, 1970. Bates number MAE 058660 dash 61. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016666 94 1 Mr. Papageorge, have you seen this document 2 before? 3 A. Yes, I have. 4 Q. Okay. Do you know one way or the other whether 5 this was the meeting when the final decision was 6 made to terminate sales of all chlorinated 7 biphenyls to non-controllable end uses? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Yes, that was the meeting? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And before May 11, 1970, had there been any 12 final decisions made by Monsanto to terminate 13 sales of Aroclor 1254 to open uses? 14 A. No . 15 Q. The deadline for completion that's listed in the 16 minutes is August 30, 1970. Is that the 17 deadline that you had recommended to the 18 committee? , 19 A. I don't know that I had the specific date of the 2 0 30th. I think I told them the last of August 2 1 and somebody forgot that August has 31 days in 22 it. 2 3 Q. Fair enough. That's all I have on that. 24 (Memo dated 10/6/70 2 5 marked as Exhibit No. 11 TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016667 95 1 for identification.) 2 Q. For the record, Papageorge 11 is a document 3 dated October 6, 1970, PCB Environmental 4 Problem, September Status Report. Mr. 5 Papageorge, have you seen this document before 6 today? 7 A. Yes, I have. 8 Q. If you would flip to the last page, is that your 9 signature down at the bottom? 10 A. Yes . 11 Q. Is this a document that you put together 12 yourself? 13 A. Yes. Well, I used the scissors and paste 14 approach. Others contributed the paragraphs 15 that are included. 16 Q. Okay. Under the section on Page 2 that says 17 marketing, there is a statement that our 18 distributors are well on their way to zero 19 inventories of the Aroclors, having pretty well 2 0 matched their purchases from Monsanto with firm 21 orders from customers. Is that a section that 2 2 you drafted, Mr. Papageorge? 23 A. No, that would be a marketing representative. 24 Q. This status report is dated October 6, 1970. 2 5 That's after the deadline or the cutoff for TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016668 96 1 sales of Aroclors to open ended applications; 2 correct? 3 A. It is. 4 Q. And there were no further sales of those 5 products that were made after August 30 of 1970 6 for end user - 7 MR. DiMURO: For open -8 Q. For open applications other than NCR carbon 9 paper? 10 A. -That's the exception, yes. All the others were 11 terminated. 12 Q. This is now a little over a month past that 13 deadline? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Does distributors here refer to American Mineral 16 Spirits Company and Central Solvents, the two 17 distributors we talked about before? 18 A. Yes. 19 MR. LIPSHUTZ: I'm going to object to 2 0 the form of the question as well as to the 2 1 foundation of the question. 2 2 Q. Did you hear him answer? 2 3 MR . LIPSHUTZ : I did not. 24 MR . DiMURO: Did you answer, 2 5 Papageorge? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES , (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016669 97 1 A. My answer is yes. 2 Q. Mr. Papageorge, is it your understanding that 3 distributors were utilized by Monsanto for 4 smaller purchases of Aroclor products? 5 MR. LIPSHUTZ: Object to the form. 6 MR. DiMURO: I'll object to the form 7 also. You can answer it. 8 A. Generally I have difficulty with the word 9 "small." It varied. And the distributors 1 0 handled more than just PCBs. 11 Q. I understand. 12 A. Generally it was the smaller quantities, whether 13 per shipment or per year and so on. Sometimes 14 it would be a big shipment at one time, 15 sometimes it would be a drum a week type of 16 approach, so it would vary. 17 Q. I take it from the sentence that you and whoever 18 drafted this section for the marketing 19 department were aware that the distributors 2 0 still had some inventory on hand as of October 21 of 1970? 2 2 MR. LIPSHUTZ: I'm going to object to 23 the form and the foundation of the question. 24 A. Well, they had some inventory, but this 25 particular paragraph implies that the inventory TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016670 98 1 was not too big and it appeared that very 2 little, if any, unsold material would be 3 returned. 4 Q. And that it's on its way to zero? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Then paragraph after that says it would be 7 several months before substantial volumes are 8 being sold, however, as most companies have some 9 inventory of the old products in stock. Again, 10 was it your understanding back in October of 11 1970 that customers had inventories of the 12 Aroclor products in stock that were not being 13 sold any longer by Monsanto? . 14 MR. O'CONNOR: Let me object because 15 I think you're mischaracterizing that 16 paragraph. 17 MR. DiMURO: Join in the objection. 18 MR. O'CONNOR: By not reading the 19 sentence previous. 2 0 MR. LIPSHUTZ: I'm not sure I heard 2 1 the objection. 2 2 MR. TURET: Let me read both 2 3 sentences together. 2 4 MR. DiMURO: Let me have the witness 2 5 -- if you're going to ask him about the TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016671 99 1 paragraph, he needs to read the paragraph. 2 MR. TURET: That's fine. 3 A. I have finished reading it. 4 Q. I want my question to be clear. This is 5 reference to non PCB products that were designed 6 to replace the Aroclor PCB products; correct? 7 MR. DiMURO: Objection to form. 8 MR . 0'CONNOR: Objection to form. 9 MR. LIPSHUTZ: Same objection. 10 A. The first sentence refers to non PCB replacement 11 product. 12 Q. And the sentence that follows it says, it will 13 be several months before substantial volumes are 14 being sold, however, because most companies have 15 some inventories of the old products in stock. 16 Does that mean that the non PCB replacement 17 products will not be sold in substantial volumes 18 for some months because customers are still 19 working off inventories of the old products? 2 0 A. That's what it says. 2 1 Q. That doesn't come as a surprise? 22 A. That's normal business behavior; you always work 2 3 with an inventory. 24 Q. No further questions on this one. 2 5 (Handwritten note TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016672 100 1 marked as Exhibit No. 12 2 for identification.) 3 Q. For the record, Papageorge 12 is on the cover, a 4 cover note from the desk of WB Papageorge with 5 some attached materials, MAE 058693 through 6 72 3. 7 Mr. Papageorge, have you ever seen 8 the document that's been marked as Papageorge 12 9 before? 10 A. Yes, I have. 11 Q. What is it? 12 A. It's a collection of copies oftransparencies 13 used by a Mr. John Mason of Monsanto in a 14 presentation to the corporate management 15 committee on the status of the PCB environmental 16 program. 17 Q. And John Mason was who? 18 A. At that time he was, I think his title was 19 assistant general manager of the organic 2 0 division of Monsanto Chemicals Company. 2 1 Q. So the attachments to this cover page you said 2 2 were transparencies that were shown to the 2 3 corporate management committee? 2 4 A. Yes. 2 5 Q. In March of 1971? " TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016673 101 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. The second page -- the first page of the 3 attachment says non-controllable end uses, and 4 in parentheses, plasticizers, at the top? 5 A . Yes . 6 Q. Number three says sales to date slow but 7 attributed to high inventories accumulated prior 8 to August 30? 9 MR. DiMURO: We're on a different 10 page . 11 Q. First page of the attachment, No. 3. This 12 refers to the non-controllable end uses for 13 plasticizers, in other words the open end uses? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. This was what was being reported to the 16 corporate management committee in March of '71? 17 A. Yes, it is. 18 Q. Now, do you have an understanding as to when the 19 purchases of Aroclor 1242 by NCR terminated? 2 0 A. Not exactly. I have a lasting impression that 2 1 they terminated by mid year 1971. 2 2 Q. And flip ahead to Bates numbered page 058708. 2 3 Let me ask, why was an exception made for sales 24 to NCR? 25 A. They had not developed a technology in which a TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016674 102 1 replacement material was found and they were 2 also relying on some research that was taking 3 place in England -- yes, in England. And it 4 took at least six months as best I recall before 5 the alternative solvent could be found to take 6 the place of the PCB that was used. 7 Q. Was that the only open application for which 8 there was not a readily available alternative? 9 A. To my knowledge, yes. 10 Q. And according to the page we flipped to, there 11 were 6.699 million pounds of Aroclor 1242 sold 12 by Monsanto to NCR in 1970. 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Now, flip ahead to page 058712 for a moment. 15 A. I have it. 16 Q. I'm sorry, that's my mistake. Never mind. I 17 have no further questions on that. 18 (Minutes of meeting 19 marked as Exhibit No. 13 2 0 for identification.) 2 1 Q. For the record, Papageorge 13 is minutes of a 2 2 meeting of the corporate management committee 2 3 March 8, 1971. 2 4 Mr. Papageorge, have you ever seen 2 5 this document before today? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016675 103 1 A. Yes , I have. 2 Q. And do you recognize it as the meeting minutes 3 from the corporate management committee of March 4 8 , '71? 5 A . I do. 6 Q. There is a reference on the third page to the 7 fact that the division has essentially met its 8 goals in the six point program. Was that -- is 9 that, the six point program that's referred to 10 throughout those minutes, the termination of 11 sales to open end uses and so forth? 12 A. Yes . 13 Q. And there is a statement that PCB usage has been 14 reduced from 75 million pounds in 1969 to 45 15 million pounds in 1971 without a major reduction 16 in profitability. Was it your understanding 17 that notwithstanding the withdrawal from the 18 market for all open end applications that the 19 PCB containing products were still maintaining 2 0 the same level of profitability? 2 1 MR. DiMURO: Object to the form. 22 A. I don't know if it was the same level. There 2 3 was a reduction but it was not described as a 24 major reduction. 2 5 Q. I have no further questions on that. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016676 104 1 (Documents 2 marked as Exhibits Nos. 14-A & 14-B 3 for identification.) 4 Q. For the record, 14-A is a June 2, 1971 Telex or 5 fax from HA Vodden, V-O-D-D-E-N, to Dr. Kelly. 6 14-B is a memo communication from Dr. Kelly to 7 HA Vodden dated June 3. Mr. Papageorge, have 8 you ever seen these two documents before today? 9 A. I have. 10 Q. And what is your understanding of what they are? 11 A. Well, the first one is a Telex from our research 12 representative in the United Kingdom asking Dr. 13 Kelly about the questions they've asked 14 regarding carcinogenic properties of Aroclors 15 which are PCBs, and Exhibit 14-B is Dr. Kelly's 16 memorandum response indicating that in essence 17 he had no information, no evidence of 18 carcinogenic properties as a result of some 19 feeding experiments. In his 35 years experience 2 0 in manufacturing of PCBs he'd never heard of an 2 1 occupationally induced cancer in our workers. 2 2 Q. Mr. Papageorge, do you know whether testing was 2 3 ever performed on Monsanto employees in the 24 Krummrich plant who were involved in 25 manufacturing of PCBs? By that, I mean blood TAYL0R & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016677 105 1 testing? 2 A. I am not personally aware of any testing of 3 employees' blood for PCBs. 4 (Letter dated 5/10/72 5 marked as Exhibit No. 15 6 for identification.) 7 Q. For the record, Papageorge 15 is a May 10, 1972 8 letter from Dr. Kelly to Dr. Davies of the 9 Council for Environmental Quality, Bates number 10 MAE 021600. 11 MR. DiMURO: What's the question? 12 MR. TURET: I don't want to interrupt 13 him if he's trying to read the document. 14 Q. Have you seen this letter before today? 15 A. I don't recall it. 16 Q. Do you know one way or the other whether the 17 testing that's referred to in this letter ever 18 took place? 19 A. First I've seen of it. I don't know. 2 0 Q. Mr. Papageorge, you're being shown a document 2 1 that was marked in the previous deposition as 2 2 McKee 13. Have you ever seen that document 2 3 be fore? 24 A. I recognize it, yes. 2 5 Q. Did you first see it while you were still TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016678 106 1 employed by Monsanto? 2 A . Yes. 3 Q. In which capacity? 4 A. As best I recall, I was the director of the 5 environmental operations at the time and because 6 of my previous close relationship to the PCBs I 7 was asked to glance at or review a draft version 8 of this document and I was then shown a finished 9 copy . 10 Q. And the draft version that you were shown, was 11 that for your general interest or was that to 12 give you an opportunity to revise it before it 13 was finalized? 14 A. For both. 15 Q. Let me direct your attention to Pages 011683 to 16 684 which is a chart of PCBs manufacturing and 17 sales by Monsanto. This is -- you're going to 18 have to follow along two pages since the years 19 seem to go onto the next page, but do you see 2 0 where it, says, plasticizers applications, which 2 1 is about the middle of the page? 2 2 A. I see it. 2 3 Q. If you follow it along onto the next page? 2 4 MR. DiMURO: What does it begin with 2 5 on the next page? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016679 107 1 MR. TURET: 13361. 2 MR. DiMURO: Okay. 3 Q. First of all, did you have a role, Mr. 4 Papageorge in assembling the information about 5 sales of PCBs? 6 A. No. Let me correct that. I was the one that 7 requested and eventually got the information 8 from the period 1957 to 1971 or so. The 9 information from that '71 period to the '78 10 shown here was obtained by others. 11 Q. Focusing on the time period from '68 through and 12 including 1970, there appears to be a - 13 roughly, this is in thousand pounds, so there 14 appears to be a 2 million pound increase from 15 1968 to 1969 of plasticizer applications for 16 PCBs? 17 MR. DiMURO: Are these millions? 18 MR. TURET: Says thousand. 19 Q. You've got a 2,000 thousand increase is that how 2 0 you read it as well? How much of an increase do 2 1 you see between 1968 and 1969 for plasticizer 22 applications of PCB sales? 2 3 A. I'm subtracting 14 from 19, gives me five. '69 2 4 -- okay. That's three million pounds. 2 5 Q. Two million pounds, 14 to 16? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016680 108 1 A. I'm sorry, I'm looking at the 1970 number. All 2 right, yeah, 2 million pounds. 3 Q. From 1969 to 1970, there is an increase of three 4 million pounds? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And the first of the letters informing customers 7 about environmental concerns went out in 8 February of 1970? 9 MR. DiMURO: I'll object to the 10 form. , 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And notwithstanding that letter going out in 13 February, there was still a substantial increase 14 in sales in 1970? 15 A. But that letter in February had nothing to do 16 with production sales. 17 Q. I'm not asking you to equate cause and effect; 18 I'm making an observation. 19 MR. O'CONNOR: About cause and 2 0 effect. I'm going to object to the form. The 2 1 numbers speak for themselves. 2 2 Q. Also, take a look down, if you would, to the 2 3 first page, see where Aroclor 1254 is listed? 24 A . I see it. 2 5 Q. If you trace that along onto the next page TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016681 109 1 you'll see it's the column that has 6696 in the 2 first column? 3 A. I see it. 4 Q. Tracing it through, there were increases in 5 Aroclor 1254 in particular from '68 to '69; 6 correct? 7 A. '68 to '69 about a million pounds. 8 Q. And then it was a 2.6 million pound increase 9 from '69 to '70? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Mr. Papageorge, you're looking at a document 12 that was marked in the previous deposition as 13 McKee 2, possible customer questions on PCBs. 14 Have you seen this document before? 15 A. Let me glance at it a bit. I have glanced 16 through the article or through the exhibit, but 17 I don't recall seeing this document before. 18 Q. Okay. I won't ask further questions on it. 19 Pull out McKee 3. Mr. Papageorge, you're now 2 0 being shown a document marked in the previous 2 1 deposition as McKee 3. It's a press query from 2 2 October 28, 1970. You're listed as one of the 2 3 addressees on it. Do you remember having seen 24 this document before? 25 A. I remember it, yes, sir. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016682 110 1 Q. And the subject in that press query is Aroclor 2 1254 that had been used in paints on silos. 3 When is the first instance that you can recall 4 hearing about contamination as a result of use 5 of Aroclor as paint on silos? 6 MR. DiMURO: Object to the form. 7 A. At about this time, mid 1970. 8 Q. And do you know if there was ever any legal 9 action instituted against Monsanto based on the 10 contamination from silo paint containing PCBs? 11 A. Yes, there were. 12 Q. Where did that take place? 13 A. I remember some legal activity in which I was 14 involved in Indiana relating to cattle exposed 15 to silage in painted silos, concrete silos. 16 Q. Was, to the best of your knowledge, was that a 17 case involving people who were seeking money to 18 compensate them for the cows or was it people 19 who were claiming personal injury? 20 A. These were -- these were money related, loss of 2 1 herd, loss of income. 22 Q. In this particular press query there is a 2 3 reference to a silo painted by Michigan Silo 24 Company and the reference is not only to cows 25 and calves dying and having difficulty TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES ( 314 ) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 2-80-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016683 111 1 reproducing, but also a farmer's son breaking 2 his leg and the wound from the break that 3 wouldn't heal. Does that refresh your 4 recollection any about any legal action? 5 A. There was no legal action regarding an injury to 6 a human being in Indiana or Ohio. 7 Q. Okay. Do you remember any legal action 8 subsequently that involved alleged personal 9 injury as a result of exposure to PCBs from 10 grain silos? . 11 A. No . 12 Q. By the way, Mr. Papageorge, that press query we 13 just were looking at, was that run by you first 14 before it was circulated, for your comments? 15 A. I don't remember this one; but I just don't 16 remember. 17 Q. Pull out McKee 4. Mr. Papageorge, you're being 18 shown a document marked at the previous 19 deposition as McKee 4 which is also a press 20 query. Do you remember this document, sir? 21 A. I believe I do. Yes, this rings a faint bell. 22 Q. Down -- were you finished with it? 2 3 A. Yes. 24 Q. Down at the bottom, very end of the document it 25 says, staffer EV John, source WB Papageorge. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016684 112 1 What does that mean? 2 A. Mr. John got a query from the individual with 3 Chemical Week, and he prepared a pencil draft of 4 his response and came by my office and we sat 5 down and talked about it. That's what that 6 says. And I don't remember my exact comments or 7 words or what I added or deleted, but I did 8 participate before the final typewritten version 9 was sent. ` 10 Q. Is that typically the case where someone is 11 listed as source and staffer at the bottom of a 12 press query? 13 A. Yes, that is typical. 14 Q. This press query seems to pose the question if 15 Monsanto knew 40 years ago what it knows today 16 about PCBs and its effects on the environment, 17 what would the company do differently? 18 MR. DiMURO: Where are you reading 19 from? 2 0 MR. TURET: The second sentence in 2 1 the query. 22 MR. DiMURO: Okay. 23 Q. And the response includes a quote, today we'd do 24 biodegradation studies, we would also do more 2 5 extensive toxicity studies including not just TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016685 113 1 acute toxicity, but also subacute (chronic) 2 studies to show effects over longer exposure 3 times at lower exposure levels. In other words, 4 if the product were completely new and 5 different, we would take a closer look at it 6 than we might have in the past. 7 Had that come from you as the source? 8 A. I saw the pencil version of that and as I 9 remember, Mr. John had talked to a medical 10 department representative to get that kind of 11 input as to the kinds of studies that they might 12 conduct knowing then -- knowing -- if they knew 13 back in the past what they knew in the '70s. 14 That's the kinds of studies they would make and 15 Mr. John told me that and I went along with it. 1 6 Q. Okay. Let's go on to Papageorge Exhibit 16. 17 (Letter dated 11/29/76 18 marked as Exhibit No. 16 19 for identification.) 2 0 MR. LIPSHUTZ: We're up to 16; is 2 1 that correct? 2 2 MR. TURET: Yes, indeed. 2 3 Q. Mr. Papageorge -- for the record, Papageorge 16 24 is a November 29, looks like 1976 letter from 2 5 Mr. Papageorge to Dr. Jerry Johnson, acting TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016686 114 1 chief of looks like NIOSH, with an enclosure. 2 Mr. Papageorge, have you seen the document 3 that's just been marked as Papageorge 16 4 previously? 5 A . Yes, I have. 6 Q. Can you tell me what it is? 7 A. This is a letter I composed back in November of 8 1976 addressed to a Dr. Johnson at NIOSH in 9 Cincinnati, Ohio, commenting on a proposed PCB 10 criteria document regarding toxicity studies, 11 analytical procedures, medical examinations and 12 the like. 13 Q. What is the PCB criteria document, just 14 generally? 15 A. Criteria documents issued by NIOSH are research 1 6 type summaries prepared by NIOSH for the benefit 17 of OSHA to use in setting exposure criteria for 18 workers throughout the country. 19 Q. And your letter refers to answers to the 2 0 questions on the draft criteria document. What 2 1 questions is that addressing? 2 2 A. Well, I got copies of the proposed document. 2 3 Attached to that were these questions. And what 24 we see here are answers to those questions that 25 are numbered as such, one through 7, 8, TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016687 115 1 whatever. 2 Q. So those were questions that were posed by Dr. 3 J ohnson? 4 A. Correct. 5 Q. Okay. In the first paragraph, your observation 6 is that, quotes, the document dwells at great 7 length upon the effects observed in a population 8 of Japanese citizens who were accidentally 9 exposed to an acute dose of PCBs in a cooking 10 oil. No relation is established between this 11 accidental, acute oral exposure to a relatively 12 high concentration of PCB and industrial type 13 exposures. Can you explain what that means? 14 A. ' I'll try. NIOSH was using an incident that 15 occurred in Japan in which PCBs leaked into oil 16 intended for human consumption. The individuals 17 who ate food prepared in that oil developed all 18 of these symptoms, pigmentation changes, I 19 forget all the symptoms, but they were quite 2 0 serious. The levels of exposure were, and I 2 1 forget the exact numbers, but they were very, 2 2 very high when compared to the type of exposure 23 that even a careless employee might experience. 24 And the intent there was to say that you're 25 comparing apples and oranges. It just doesn't TAYLOR. & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016688 116 1 fit, doesn't make sense. So what we were trying 2 to tell them, that to use that oil contamination 3 incident as a basis for establishing an exposure 4 level was not appropriate. 5 Q. Okay. Now, a little further down in that 6 paragraph you observe, no sound basis has been 7 established to support the contention that PCBs 8 are human carcinogens. The use of the words, 9 "no sound basis has been established," might be 10 interpreted to mean that there was some basis 11 but not a sound basis. Can you explain that 12 sentence? 13 MR. DiMURO: I object to the form. 14 MR. LIPSHUTZ: Same objection. 15 A. The basis that we occasionally heard was one of 16 an allegation that someone out there would make 17 without any data. So this is what we 18 interpreted as an unsound basis. Somebody 19 alleged that this person got his cancer from 2 0 PCBs, and that's it. No further data. 2 1 Q. Flipping ahead to paragraph 12 there is a 2 2 similar statement that there is no persuasive 2 3 evidence supporting the, quote, cancer suspect 2 4 agent, close quote, labeling all PCBs; 2 5 therefore, such labeling is inappropriate. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016689 117 1 Again, when you say there is no persuasive 2 evidence, what evidence did you have at the time 3 that PCBs were carcinogens? 4 MR. DiMURO: I object to the form. 5 A. We had no evidence. We had allegations, and 6 NIOSH was proposing in this document to use that 7 parenthetical, the cancer suspect agent, on all 8 labels. And we told them we have no basis for 9 that. 10 Q. That's all I have on that one. 11 (Letter dated 12/20/76 12 marked as Exhibit No. 17 13 for identification.) 14 Q. For the record, Papageorge 17 is a December 20, 15 1976, letter from Mr. Papageorge to Dr. Jerry 16 Johnson again, Acting Chief of Criteria 17 Documentation, NIOSH. Mr. Papageorge, have you 18 seen the document that's been marked as 19 Papageorge 17? 2 0 A. Yes, I have. 2 1 Q. And is that a letter that you wrote to Dr. 2 2 Johnson? 2 3 A. Yes. 2 4 Q. In the first paragraph you refer to an 2 5 impression you had when you left a particular TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016690 118 1 meeting that NIOSH would continue -- that future 2 drafts of the document would continue to contain 3 allegations that PCBs are human carcinogens and 4 that they should be labeled as, quote, cancer 5 suspect agents. Was your impression accurate at 6 the time? 7 A. I believe it was, yes. 8 Q. To your knowledge, did NIOSH continue to label 9 PCBs as cancer suspect agents? 10 A. Eventually they dropped that. 11 Q. When, if you remember, did they drop it? 12 A. All I can recall is that this criteria document 13 was not issued, as best I remember, for several 14 years. I believe eventually it was issued, but 15 since I was no longer directly involved with the 16 PCBs issue, I don't recall the year of issuance 17 and the final version of their suggestions. 18 Q. Okay. 19 (A Perspective 2 0 marked as Exhibit No. 18 2 1 for identification.) 2 2 Q. For the record, the document I've just shown Mr. 2 3 Papageorge has been marked as Papageorge 18 is a 24 document entitled Polychlorinated Biphenyls, A 2 5 Perspective, John H. Craddock document, Bates TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016691 119 1 numbered MAE 010245 to 257. Have you ever seen 2 that document before? 3 A. Yes, I have. 4 Q. And who is Mr. Craddock? 5 A. Dr. Craddock is, was a Monsanto employee at the 6 time, who in about 19 -- the late '70s or early 7 '80s was assigned, along with other duties, the 8 task of monitoring PCB activities. 9 Q. How did you come to see this particular 10 document ? 11 A. I don't remember the exact circumstances. As 12 best I recall, it's because of my past 13 involvement Dr. Craddock sent me a copy. 14 Q. Did you have any substantive input into the 15 document before it was finalized? 16 A. No . 17 Q. Just flipping all the way to the end, the 18 summary conclusions, there is a statement, In 19 some cases these compounds, referring to PCBs, 2 0 have been labeled by regulatory agencies, 2 1 legislative bodies, the populace and the media 2 2 as human cancer causing agents and deadly 23 toxins. However, scientific evidence does not 24 support these claims. Is that statement 25 consistent with your belief and understanding as TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016692 12 0 1 of January of 1981? 2 A. Yes, and so to date. 3 Q. That's still your belief today? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Have you ever in your time as a Monsanto 6 employee seen a study that suggests that 7 exposure to PCBs has caused cancer? 8 MR. DiMURO: Objection to form. 9 A. Well, I'm aware of Dr. Kimbrough's work with 10 rats . 11 Q. Fair enough. Other than Dr. Kimbrough's work? 12 A. No, I have not seen any other study. 13 Q. And is your answer the same regardless of 14 whether we're talking about cancer in animals or 15 cancer in humans? 16 A. Correct. 17 Q. Have you seen any documents which cite specific 18 evidence of the propensity of a PCB containing 19 product to cause cancer in humans? 2 0 MR. DiMURO: Objection to form. 2 1 A. I don't remember seeing any such documents, no, 22 I have not seen that. 2 3 Q. Have you seen any document in your time as an 24 employee of Monsanto that cites specific 25 evidence that exposure to PCBs causes cancer in TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016693 12 1 1 animals? 2 MR. DiMURO: Object to form. 3 Q. Again, other than the Kimbrough study? 4 A . No . 5 Q. Mr. Papageorge, did you have any direct 6 involvement in submissions to regulatory 7 agencies where there were preparation of 8 proposed regulations relating to PCBs? I 9 recognize that's a very broad question. We've 10 already talked about some submissions that you 11 made already. Are there any other instances we 12 have not talked about yet where you were 13 involved with regulatory agencies that were 14 proposing to regulate PCBs? 15 MR. DiMURO: Object to the form. 16 A. Well, I do know that I was involved in hearings 17 and in responding to Federal Register 18 notifications of proposed rule makings. I 19 recall drafting letters to the appropriate 2 0 people at the agencies. An example would be one 2 1 where, as I remember, EPA was proposing a 2 2 certain level of PCBs in water and I commented 2 3 that the -- something to' the effect that the 24 analytical methodology was such that that level 2 5 is just unrealistically low. It could not be TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016694 122 1 reliably detected, therefore, you couldn't 2 monitor it at that level. The FDA had come out 3 with a proposed list of food type items and the 4 PCB levels that would be tolerated in them and I 5 made comments on that. It's been 30 years. I 6 don't remember the details anymore, but we did 7 participate wherever we could. 8 Q. How about legislation that was being proposed 9 when the Clean Water Act, for example, was being 10 proposed, is that the submission you just 11 referred to? 12 A. I don't recall personally participating in the 13 Clean Water Act. This came after my assignment 14 to the PCB issues as I recall. Other than that 15 my memory fails me at the moment. 16 Q. How about, were you involved directly in any 17 submissions that related to one of the Toxic 18 Substances Control Acts? I know they took 19 various forms before reaching the final form. 2 0 A. I understand. I don't recall being involved 2 1 with the Toxic Substances Control Act. I think 22 that also came after my direct involvement. 2 3 Q. Meaning after you moved onto the -- I don't have 24 the resume - 25 A. The broad environmental operations director, TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016695 12 3 1 yes . 2 Q. Mr. Papageorge, you mentioned before the 3 interdepartmental task force. Can you tell me 4 what that was and what it was convened to do? 5 A. I'll give you my understanding of it. 6 Q. That's fine. 7 A. As I understood it, this was an informal 8 grouping made up of representatives of several 9 Federal agencies, departments that heard a lot 10 about PCBs, wanted to learn more, so they 11 started meeting and comparing notes and 12 contacted our Washington office for Monsanto's 13 input. And I learned of this and I was asked to 14 participate on occasion, not to attend every 15 meeting. I in turn got Elmer Wheeler involved 16 and the analytical people through Dr. Keller and 17 Scott Tucker. And we met with that group on 18 several occasions. I, again, did not keep a 19 score sheet, so I don't know how many times we 2 0 met with them. My principal contact was with Ed 2 1 Berger who acted as sort of chairman of the 2 2 group and he was assisted by Dr. Davies of the 23 Council of Environmental Quality. I remember we 24 gave them one more or less formal presentation 25 in early '72, 1972, on the biodegradation work TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016696 124 1 that Monsanto was conducting and the latest on 2 our toxicity studies, the results of which had 3 just been issued, and that group in 19 -- in May 4 of 1972 published their findings in which they 5 supported Monsanto's continued sales to the 6 electrical and closed systems and were 7 supportive of Monsanto's phasing out of the open 8 uses and the difficult to contain uses such as 9 leaking hydraulic systems and so on. I don't 10 know what else to add to that. We found them 11 very responsive and I would like to think they 12 appreciated our contributions. 13 Q. I just have a handful of things left? 14 (Copies of labels 15 marked as Exhibits Nos. 19-A & 19-B 16 for identification.) 17 Q. For the record, Papageorge 19-A appears to be a 18 label that says Aroclor 1254 at the top; and 19 Papageorge 19-B also appears to be a label with 2 0 Aroclor 1254 at the top. There are differences 2 1 among them. Have you seen those two documents 2 2 before today? 2 3 A. Yes, I have. 2 4 Q. Can you tell me what they are? 2 5 A. These are copies of labels from Monsanto's TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016697 12 5 1 product Aroclor 1254 to be affixed to drums 2 containing 600 pounds of the Aroclor. 3 MR. LIPSHUTZ: Do those have an MAE 4 number? 5 MR. TURET: Yes, MAE 048716, that's 6 19-A and 048640, that's 19-B. 7 Q. Mr. Papageorge, did you, once you had assumed 8 your position as manager of environmental 9 control, is that correct, the position you held 10 in January of 1970? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Did you have as one of your responsibilities 13 seeing to it that a label change was made on the 14 Aroclor 1254 drums? 15 A. When you added drums, that limited it, yes. 16 Q. What was it that would have made it too broad to 17 answer? 18 A. There are pails, there are tank cars, there are 19 other containers besides the steel drum. 2 0 Q. How large was a pail? 2 1 A. Five gallon. 2 2 Q. Aroclor 1254 was sold in five-gallon increments? 2 3 A. In some instances, yes. 24 Q. To your knowledge, were the labels on the 25 five-gallon pails the same as the labels on the TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016698 126 1 600-pound drums? 2 A. Except for the weight designations. 3 Q. Okay. What was your role, if any, in adding 4 this section all the way to the right, this 5 product contains polychlorinated biphenyls, et 6 cetera, on 19-B? 7 A. I see it. I drafted a paragraph and circulated 8 it to this task force we talked of earlier for 9 comments and I received some comments, not too 10 many, and included some minor changes in wording 11 and decided on the paragraph we now see on 12 Exhibit 19 dash B, referring to environmental 13 contaminant. 14 Q. The rest of the language wasn't changed? 15 A. That is correct. 16 Q. Just to clarify, there is some handwritten notes 17 on 19-A says, used prior to May 19 '70, last 18 printed April 30, 1969. Do you know one way or 19 the other whether that information is accurate? 2 0 A. Yes, that's very accurate. It was in May of 2 1 1970 that this environmental paragraph was 22 included as indicated on Exhibit 19-B, the 2 3 handwritten notes. 24 Q. Are those your handwritten notes? 2 5 A. No. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016699 127 1 Q. But the information contained on the handwritten 2 notes on 19-B also is accurate? 3 A. Correct. 4 Q. Mr. Papageorge, as an employee of Monsanto have 5 you had occasion to communicate with employees 6 of Armstrong Cork or Armstrong World Industries? 7 A. It seems to me that I wrote a letter to somebody 8 at Armstrong, but at this point in time I don't 9 recall the date or the subject matter. I 10 believe I had at least one contact by mail with 11 an Armstrong employee. 12 Q. Do you know whether that letter took place while 13 you were employed in St. Louis as opposed to 14 when you were in Anniston? 15 A. Yes, it would have to be while I was involved 16 with the environmental issue with PCBs. 17 Q. Do you remember whether this was in the 1970 to 18 '76 period as opposed to 'll on that you were 19 involved in the other types of environmental 2 0 issues? 2 1 A. It was the '70 to '76 period. 2 2 Q. Do you remember anything about why you wrote a 2 3 letter to Armstrong? 24 A. I just know -- not the specifics, I don't 2 5 recall. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016700 128 1 Q. Did you ever have occasion to travel to any 2 Armstrong facilities for any reason? 3 A. I did not.. 4 Q. Did you personally have any involvement in 5 reviewing sales records to determine who the 6 customers of Monsanto were that had purchased 7 Aroclor products? 8 A. On occasion. 9 Q. What circumstances prompted you to review sales 10 records? 11 A. Certainly in preparation for depositions and all 12 I did get to see some. And before that, I 13 recall seeing some sales information, but at the 14 moment cannot recall why. I had no need for 15 that information. I just can't recall the 16 details any longer. 17 Q. Did you see any sales records in advance of this 18 deposition? 19 A. Yes. 2 0 Q. Are those sales records reflecting products sold 2 1 by Monsanto to Armstrong? 2 2 A. Yes. 2 3 Q. Are they also sales records reflecting sales by 24 Monsanto to American Mineral Spirits Company? 25 A. Not for this case, no. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016701 129 1 Q. Did you review any other documents in advance of 2 this deposition in preparation for this 3 deposition? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Are there any documents other than the ones that 6 you've been shown so far today that you 7 reviewed? 8 A. I don't propose to tell you that I remember each 9 and every document. I remember two bundles of 10 about four inches each. Many of them we glanced 11 through today. There were copies of letters to 12 customers. Then I recall seeing some call 13 reports that the salespeople made calls to 14 Armstrong facilities. 15 Q. Did any of those call reports relate to 16 activities that you were involved in? 17 A. They did refer to the use of PCBs and -18 Q. No, I'm talking about you, William Papageorge. 19 Were they calls on Armstrong or communications 2 0 with Armstrong that you personally participated 2 1 in? 22 A. Oh, no, no, no. 2 3 Q. Did you ever have occasion to meet with or 2 4 communicate with any representatives of American 25 Mineral Spirits Company? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016702 130 1 A . No . 2 MR. DiMURO: Off the record. 3 (Discussion off the record). 4 Q. Mr. Papageorge, did you personally compile the 5 list of customers from which the letters were 6 sent out in the 1970 time period to let the 7 customers know that Aroclors were being 8 withdrawn from the market for certain 9 applications? 10 A. I did not. 11 Q. Who actually compiled that list if you know? 12 A. Many people, must be 50 people or more involved 13 in putting this list together. 14 Q. What department had responsibility for that? 15 A. There is, of course, the marketing department, 16 and the shipping function, the accounts 17 receivable function, the billing invoicing 18 function. I think that covers most of them. 19 Q. Mr. Papageorge, let me just ask generally, in 20 your efforts to compile information about pCBs, 2 1 their uses while a Monsanto employee, what uses 22 do you recall that related to paints that 2 3 contained PCBs? 2 4 A. Are you talking about uses of paint? 25 Q. Uses, the applications for paint that you had TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES ( 314 ) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE ( 800) 2'80-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016703 13 1 1 come across in which the paint contained Aroclor 2 products. 3 MR. DiMURO: Object to the form. 4 A. Of course the most commonly known one is the one 5 of paint used on the yellow and white stripes on 6 the roadways. There were, it's my understanding 7 some heavy duty industrial coatings used to 8 paint steel structures and manufacturing 9 buildings and all, especially where fumes would 10 exist to corrode the surface or damage different 11 kinds of coatings. I understood that some 12 paints used on concrete surfaces, floors and the 13 like contained PCBs. I recall also -- and none 14 of these, I did not have the opportunity to 15 personally follow up and double check these, but 16 I was also told that some marine paints 17 contained PCBs in them. And this was also 18 supposed to inhibit barnacle formulations and so 19 on. I can't think of any more at the moment. 2 0 I'm sure there are others. 2 1 Q. When you talked about concrete floors with 22 paints on them, what types of structures were 2 3 those concrete floors located in, if you know? 24 A. I have an idea an example would be a warehouse 2 5 floor with fork lifts running on it and they TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES ( 3 14 ) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE ( 800) 2'80-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016704 132 1 wantfed a heavy duty coating that would last. 2 And I understood some service centers for 3 automotive repairs and all to make them easy to 4 hose down when they got grease and oil on them 5 were coated with these heavy duty coatings. 6 That's all I know at the moment. 7 Q. How about lacquers and varnishes that contained 8 PC B s ? 9 A. Yeah, forgot about those. There were some of 10 the heavy duty varnishes and lacquers used on 11 furniture and the like and floors to make them 12 scratch and scuff resistant. 13 Q. And can you think of any specific types of 14 locations were those varnishes and lacquers were 15 used? 16 A. No, not at the moment. 17 Q. How about as a protective or decorative coating 18 for swimming pools or stucco homes? 19 A. Oh, well, okay. 2 0 Q. I'm not trying to trick you. 2 1 A. I understand. In my mind I group that with the 22 concrete paint applications, the surfacing of 2 3 masonry type surfaces. 24 Q. How about coatings on wallboard or other 25 construction materials? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800 ) 2'80-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016705 13 3 1 A. I don't know about that. 2 Q. How about as a fire retardant coating for 3 fabrics or paper products? 4 A. I recall comments made regarding that kind of 5 use, but I personally don't know if it was just 6 a research effort or whether it was actually in 7 practice. I'm limited in my knowledge of that. 8 MR. O'CONNOR: Do you mind if we take 9 a two-minute break? 10 MR. TURET: That's fine. 11 (Brief recess.) 12 (Notice dated 10/29/70 13 marked as Exhibit No. 20 14 for identification.) 15 MR. TURET: Back on the record. 16 Q. For the record, the document marked as 17 Papageorge 20 is an October 29, 1970, notice 18 from the U.S. Department of Agriculture, Bates 19 No. MAE 052663. 2 0 Mr. Papageorge, have you ever seen 21 the document that you've been shown marked as 22 Papageorge 20 before? 2 3 A. I have. 24 Q. What is your understanding of what it is? 25 A. This is a response from the U.S. Department of TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES ( 314 ) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 2-80-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016706 134 1 Agriculture to Dr. Kelly's request, that PCBs 2 not be permitted as an ingredient in pesticide 3 formulations. 4 Q. Is it your understanding that the Department of 5 Agriculture did not ban outright immediately the 6 use of PCBs in pesticide? 7 A. Well, it didn't happen immediately. As I 8 recall, Dr. Kelly wrote to the department in 9 early 1970, and no action was taken until late 10 October as reflected by the date of this letter. 11 Q. Let me refer you to the second to last 12 paragraph, last sentence there, that from the 13 assistant director of the U.S. Department of 14 Agriculture stating a period of six months is a 15 reasonable period of time within which to effect 16 such formula changes. My question was more 17 geared toward the Department of Agriculture's 18 decision to phase out rather than ban 19 immediately the use of PCBs in pesticides. Do 2 0 you have an understanding one way or the other? 2 1 MR. DAVIDSON: Objection. 22 MR. TURET: There is only one lawyer 2 3 here objecting. 24 MR. DiMURO: All right. Objection to 25 form. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES ( 314 ) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (80 0) 2-80-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016707 135 1 MR. TURET: Thank you 2 MR. DiMURO: You can 3 A. If I remember the question. This notice does 4 give a six-month period to effect the formula 5 change. Realistically, however, PCBs were not 6 available after August 30, so unless a 7 formulator had an ample inventory of PCBs, he 8 could not have added it to his formulation 9 anyway. 10 Q. Okay. Just a few names, Mr. Papageorge. Do you 11 know who E. Mather is, M-A-T-H-E-R? 12 A. The name is familiar and I can't associate it 13 with any specific activity or position. I can't 14 help on you that. 15 Q. How about Dr. JW Barrett, B-A-R-R-E-T-T, London? 16 A. London, yes, Dr. Barrett was a research chemist 17 with Monsanto in London. 18 Q. How about Dr. HR Newman? 19 A. He was a medical doctor with Monsanto in London. 2 0 Q. Was he the medical director out there? 2 1 A. Yes. 22 Q. How about DV Hardy, H-A-R-D-Y? 23 A. H-A-R-D-Y, I don't remember him. 24 Q. How about Dr. JA Gardner? 25 A. I don't remember that. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016708 136 1 MR. TURET: I have no further 2 questions at this time. Thank you. 3 4 EXAMINATION 5 QUESTIONS BY MR. O'CONNOR: 6 Q. Mr. Papageorge, we were introduced earlier. My 7 name is Brian O'Connor and I represent the 8 plaintiffs in this case who brought a case 9 against Armstrong World Industries for exposures 10 specifically at Burlington County College. The 11 allegation is in reference to PCBs that were 12 contained in ceiling tiles from 1971 until 13 approximately 1985. Those ceiling tiles were in 14 place at the college. Monsanto has been brought 15 in as a third-party defendant as well as 16 American Mineral Spirits Company. Do you 17 understand that? 18 A . I do. 19 Q. Now, you've testified in quite a few litigated 20 matters on behalf of Monsanto; correct? 2 1 A. Yes. 22 Q. Is it fair to say that you've testified in over 23 50 matters related to litigation? 24 A. I don't know that it's quite that high. I would 25 suggest 30 to 40, somewhere in there. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES ( 314 ) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 2-80-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016709 137 1 Q. Okay. And you've testified frequently since 2 you've retired; correct? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Are you compensated at all for the testimony you 5 give? 6 A. No, I don't get paid to be a fact witness. 7 Q. But you've had to travel quite a bit as witness 8 in various litigations in different venues 9 around the country; correct? 10 A. A little bit. 11 Q. Who pays for your travel expenses? 12 A. The law firms that work on these matters. 13 Q. Let me ask you, you've testified in matters that 14 you weren't subpoenaed on; correct? 15 MR. DAVIDSON: Were or were not? 16 MR. O'CONNOR: Were not. 17 MR. DiMURO: Such as today, he didn't 18 get a subpoena today. 19 MR. O'CONNOR: Correct. 20 A. All right. There are times when I'm a little 21 confused regarding whether or not a subpoena was 22 suggested or threatened or -- but nevertheless, 23 I do show up in both types of situations, yes. 24 Q. Do you currently receive a pension from 25 Monsanto? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314 ) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 2`80-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016710 138 1 A. Yes . 2 Q. Do you have any stock in the company? Do you 3 hold any stock? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. What kind of income do you get through Monsanto 6 either through your stock or your pension 7 currently on an annual basis? 8 A. I haven't calculated the sum of the two. I 9 would suggest something like 60,000 a year. 10 Q. What year was it that you retired? 11 A. The end of 1986. 12 Q. Now, you've been involved in litigation that 13 related to property damage claims; is that 14 correct? 15 A. Yes, if that includes presence of PCBs in soil 16 of a company's plant, yes. 17 Q. Have you testified in court in any case where 18 the plaintiff was alleging that PCBs 19 manufactured by Monsanto resulted in a personal 2 0 injury to the plaintiff? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. A physical injury? 23 A . Yes. 24 Q. Where was that? 25 A. I'm trying to recall some of them. There was a TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016711 139 1 case in Indiana, Westinghouse employees claiming 2 many different kinds of physical ailments 3 because of their working with PCBs in the 4 manufacture of electrical capacitors. I don't 5 know if this one fits your description of 6 physical ailments, but there was a -- trying to 7 think -- there was a case up in Michigan 8 involving dairy cattle and the farm family 9 consuming -- in this case cattle were exposed to 10 PCBs, the milk presumably contained the PCBs and 11 the family claimed some physical problems as a 12 result. 13 Q. Did you testify in court in those cases? 14 A. The Haley case, yes. 15 Q. How did those cases turn out? 16 MR. DiMURO: I'll object to the 17 form. 18 A. The Indiana case, the Westinghouse employees, 19 they didn't get anything. 20 Q. This was a jury verdict? 2 1 A. Jury verdict. As I remember, the Haley case up 22 in Michigan, they got something. 2 3 Q. The jury awarded some type of monetary award? 24 A. Yes. There was another case where there was a 2 5 transformer in transit from Georgia to its TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016712 140 1 destination across Tennessee, as I recall. 2 Q. Is that the case where the transformer leaked on 3 the roadway, leaked on the roadway and the 4 driver was told to drain it and it got into the 5 pond and the cattle and the pasture lands? 6 A. The cattle were presumably affected and as I 7 remember, it's been so long ago, the farmer 8 claimed some personal injury. I don't remember 9 the details anymore. 10 Q. Let me ask you, have you ever testified in court 11 on a case where the plaintiff was alleging that 12 he or she had contracted cancer as a result of 13 exposure to PCBs? 14 A. Yes, there is an employee also from Westinghouse 15 claiming a brain cancer, as I recall. 16 Q. That case is pending? 17 A. No. That was held and the plaintiff's widow and 18 children didn't get anything. The jury did not 19 award anything. 2 0 Q. Where was that venue? Do you know what state 2 1 that was in? 22 A. It was held in St. Louis here, the Bechtel 23 (phonetic) case. 24 Q. That was recent, was it not, 1994? 25 A. A couple three years, yeah. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016713 141 1 Q. Today Mr. Turet asked you what documents you 2 reviewed and you said many of the documents that 3 you had reviewed prior to today's deposition 4 you've been provided by counsel and you also 5 mentioned that you looked at some reports of 6 sales calls? 7 A. Yes . 8 Q. On Armstrong, by Monsanto employees? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Anything else? Is there anything else that 11 sticks out in your mine that you didn't review 12 today that you reviewed prior to today's 13 deposition? 14 MR. DiMURO: I'll put on the record 15 that we did show him the request to dismiss that 16 we served on Armstrong by Monsanto and he 17 reviewed some of those documents. 18 A. I forgot that. I can't think specifically of 19 anything. I think that about covers the 20 description of the types of documents I saw. 2 1 Q. Are you familiar with plasticizers? 22 A. In a way, yes. 2 3 Q. Can you describe your familiarity with them? 24 A. Well, they are chemical ingredients of many 25 different compositions that are added to TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016714 142 1 materials we call plastics to make them pliable, 2 flexible instead of brittle. Does that help? 3 Q. Sure. And at one point in time Monsanto Company 4 was selling Aroclor 1254 as a plasticizer; 5 correct? 6 A. That was one use, yes, sir. 7 Q. Are you familiar with plastisol coating 8 formulations at all? Are you familiar with that 9 phrase? 10 A. I've heard plastisol, but that's the extent of 11 my knowledge. 12 Q. Have you ever dealt with any customers of 13 plasticizers at all in terms of customers, of 14 Monsanto's customers? 15 A. Only in the PCB issue, not as to whether or not 16 it could be used but as to what effect does it 17 have on the environment and why should I stop 18 using it, that kind of discussion. 19 Q. Other than Armstrong, do you recall any customer 2 0 that you had contact with with regard to 2 1 discussions on plasticizers and/or PCBs? 2 2 A. Yes, there were several. I just -- my memory is 2 3 not that crystal clear anymore. There were 24 customers, very unhappy incidentally -- 25 Q. About the cessation? .................... ........................... TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016715 143 1 A. About the discontinuation of sales. 2 Q. Have you spoke with any customer in your career 3 at Monsanto about the use of Aroclor 1254 in 4 application on ceiling tiles? 5 A. No. 6 Q. And I believe you told Mr. Turet that you don't 7 remember having ever had any contact with anyone 8 at Armstrong World Industries with the exception 9 of one correspondence by way of letter and you 10 didn't remember the subject matter of that 11 letter; is that correct? 12 A. That is correct. 13 Q. So it's fair to assume that you never had any 14 discussions with any Armstrong employees about 15 the application of Aroclor on 1254 in ceiling 16 tiles? 17 A. That is correct. 18 Q. At some point in time did you become aware that 19 Armstrong World Industries had applied Aroclor 2 0 1254 as part of a plasticizer formulation to 2 1 ceiling tiles? 2 2 A. Only as it relates to this suit. 2 3 Q. When was that? 24 A. My first inkling that such a use was made as 25 best I can tell happened earlier this year. I'm TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016716 144 1 going to -- well, the first quarter of this year 2 is as close as I can get to it. 3 Q. If I'm understanding your testimony, then, you 4 had never heard of the application of Aroclor 5 1254 as part of a plasticizer or plastisol 6 coating formulation in application to ceiling 7 tiles prior to the early part of 1997? 8 A. That is correct. 9 Q. Are you familiar with all the plasticizers that 10 don't contain PCBs? 11 A. Yes; there are many. 12 Q. Monsanto makes a lot of those; correct? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Have you ever done any research on or work on 15 plasticizers themselves or is it information you 16 came about as a result of that involvement with 17 PCBs? 18 A. Of course, my involvement with PCBs did include 19 some exposure to its use as plasticizer. My 2 0 only previous relationship with plasticizers was 2 1 during the period I was an assistant supervisor 2 2 in the manufacture of other types of 2 3 plasticizers, non PCB types. 24 Q. Do you have any belief or opinion as to whether 25 or not PCBs were efficient as plasticizers? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016717 145 1 MR. DiMURO: In any way? 2 MR. O'CONNOR: In any use? 3 A. It depends on the use. In some uses they were 4 superior additives; in other uses they were 5 total failures, they just didn't do the job. 6 Q. Are you familiar at all with phosphate 7 plasticizers? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Did Monsanto sell phosphate plasticizers? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Did they sell phosphate plasticizers in the '50s 12 and '60s? 13 A. Yes . 14 Q. Did you have any involvement at all with 15 phosphate plasticizers? 16 A. Not in the chemicals per se. 17 Q. Did you have any involvement at all with regard 18 to the sales of phosphate plasticizers with the 19 plants that you were affiliated with while you 2 0 were going through your various promotions at 2 1 Monsanto? 2 2 A. No. 2 3 Q. Have you spoke with anyone at Monsanto or any 24 former employee of Monsanto about the use of 25 Aroclor 1254 as a plasticizer to be applied to TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016718 14 6 1 ceiling tiles? 2 A . No . 3 Q. Do you know a Dr. Coaker, I believe his first 4 name is William? 5 A. I know I've heard of the man. If I had dealings 6 with him, they were very minimal to the point 7 where I can't recall a specific face-to-face 8 kind of discussion or presence at any meeting or 9 other types of contacts. 10 Q. Have you personally seen any literature 11 recommending the use of Aroclor 1254 for 12 application to ceiling tiles? 13 A. No. 14 Q. At some point in time during 1970 Monsanto made 15 a decision to stop manufacturing and 16 distributing Aroclors which contained PCBs for 17 open uses; correct? 18 A. Correct. 19 Q. I believe there was a letter that was referred 2 0 to earlier that went out in June of 1970 - 2 1 A. Yes. 22 Q. -- informing customers that Aroclors were no 2 3 longer going to be available for open uses as 24 plasticizers? 25 A. Correct. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016719 147 1 Q. And you had direct involvement with the decision 2 to stop manufacturing PCBs? 3 A. Yes. I'm sorry, stop manufacturing you say? 4 Q. Stop manufacturing PCBs for open uses? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. What was your involvement? We've looked at some 7 documents that are directed to the executive 8 committee? 9 A. Yes. My involvement really was one of putting 10 together the opinions of the individuals within 11 Monsanto who were directly involved with PCBs as 12 plasticizers and I suppose you can say I 13 encouraged their thinking that leaned to maybe 14 we ought to get out, and I kind of reinforced 15 that belief, that listen, it's not that big a 16 business, let's drop it and save it for the real 17 important uses like transformers and electric 18 equipment, let's not jeopardize that important 19 use. So I would like to think that I influenced 2 0 the thinking that supported that. And I went to 2 1 the business directors, Mr. Springgate and Mr. 22 Bergen and recommended this. And it was passed 2 3 onto the top management and accepted. 24 Q. Did you have any involvement at all in the 25 decision to stop the manufacture of PCBs TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016720 148 1 completely in 1977? 2 A. No. 3 Q. By that time you were no longer involved? 4 A. Not directly I was not. 5 Q. What was your understanding as to what 6 Monsanto's corporate position was with regard to 7 stopping the production of the Aroclor PCB line 8 for use as plasticizers in June of 1970? 9 A. My understanding was that Monsanto had made that 10 decision and took the appropriate action to get 11 out of that business. 12 Q. Based on what? 13 A. You mean my understanding is based on? 14 Q. Yes. 15 A. Intimate relationships with the individuals who 16 put together the letters of notification and 17 individuals that manufactured the material. 18 Q. Prior to the letters of notification how was it 19 brought to Monsanto's attention that PCBs were a 2 0 potential environmental contaminant? Was that 2 1 gleaned from the media? 22 A. Well, of course, the media helped disseminate 2 3 the information as it was accumulating from many 24 sources, but Monsanto on its own analysis of 25 samples from the environment led to the TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016721 149 1 understanding that surprisingly, PCBs are 2 appearing in samples that bear no relationship 3 to the industrial applications. The question 4 then became one of, if there is no industrial 5 site nearby how did the pine tree needles get 6 it. So it was decided, then, that it must be 7 those uses that are directly out in the 8 environment that eventually end up in that pine 9 needle, as an example. And that is an 10 industrial chemical, man-made, and Monsanto's 11 leadership decided it's inappropriate, it should 12 not be, so let's get out of the business. 13 That's how that evolved, really. 14 Q. Did that thinking of let's get out of the 15 business begin about 1969 or so? 16 A. There were individuals then, as the laboratory 17 data accumulated, there were individuals that 18 were beginning to perceive it as, yes, this data 19 is not misleading, it's truthful, we've been 2 0 waiting to confirm it, so it must come from 2 1 those uses or those practices that lead to its 22 escape out there when we lose control. 2 3 Q. Earlier today Mr. Turet marked Papageorge No. 7, 2 4 the minutes of a meeting of the corporate 25 development committee November 17, 1969. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016722 150 1 A . Yes. 2 Q. On the third page of that document, Mr. 3 Papageorge, is the discussion of a tailored 4 program to look at the PCB situation with regard 5 to the sale and distribution to customers for 6 open uses; correct? 7 A. I'm having a difficult time finding -- 8 Q. The 12 items that are enumerated there? 9 A. Yes. 10 MR. DiMURO: Which one? 11 MR. O'CONNOR: Just talking about 12 them all in general. 13 A. Oh, all in general. 14 Q. Yeah. This was a program Monsanto was planning 15 on; correct? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. This was basically an outline of that program? 18 A. That was my charter. . 19 Q. Out of this charter developed a series of 2 0 letters that were mailed to customers and 2 1 distributors of Aroclor 1254 and other Aroclors 22 that contained PCBs; correct? 2 3 A. I'm trying to determine whether it's -- well, 24 item No. 2 is the notification item. And item 25 four is one where you caution them to keep it TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016723 151 1 out of the environment. 2 Q. Well, the notification letter, Mr. Papageorge, 3 just so we're all on the same page, let me give 4 you copies of these letters. Through the course 5 of discovery my office has been provided with 6 these letters, the first being dated February 9 7 of 1970; correct? 8 A. Yes. 9 MR. DAVIDSON: Are these already 10 marked? 11 MR. O'CONNOR: Some of them are 12 already marked as Coaker exhibits. If you like, 13 we can mark them again. 14 MR. TURET: No need as long as we 15 refer to Bates numbers. 16 MR. O'CONNOR: I'll refer to Bates 17 number. What I'm referring to February 9, 1970, 18 letter from Monsanto Bates No. MAE 054389. 19 MR. TURET: Through what? 2 0 MR. O'CONNOR: Through 054396. 2 1 MR. DiMURO: Just indicate that 2 2 letter has an attachment. It's a two-page 2 3 letter with an attachment from Chemical Week. 2 4 Q. Mr. Papageorge, you made reference to Papageorge 2 5 No. 7 as being a charter -- Page 3, the 12 TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016724 152 1 enumerated items as being a charter that you 2 were following; correct? 3 A. Correct. 4 Q. This February 9, 1970, letter was in essence a 5 notice letter; correct? 6 A. That is correct. 7 Q. And there was an attachment to it from Chemical 8 Week dated October 29, 1969; correct? 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. What was the purpose of sending out the notice 11 letter and this literature? 12 A. The purpose is to inform the customers that PCBs 13 of a certain type, 54 and 60 percent type, were 14 being discovered in the environment, and that 15 they should avoid getting it into the 16 environment because of their products or their 17 activities. 18 Q. And why was Monsanto informing customers that 19 they should avoid getting the higher Aroclors, 2 0 54 and 60 as you itemized, out into the 2 1 environment? 22 A. Because they were the types that were being 23 identified by reliable laboratories in samples 24 and the belief by Monsanto management was that 25 an industrial chemical should not be present in TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016725 153 1 some of the samples that were being reported. 2 Q. Why with specificity was Aroclor 1254 and 3 Aroclor 1260 not supposed to be in the 4 environment? 5 A. Because at that point in time they were the only 6 PCBs being identified by the laboratories. 7 Q. They were the higher chlorinated Aroclors? 8 A. That is correct. 9 Q. Now, in 1970, was Monsanto aware of any 10 potential health risks to humans as a result of 11 exposure to, at certain levels, to Aroclor 1254 12 or Aroclor 1260? 13 MR. DiMURO: Object to the form. You 14 can answer. 15 A. They were aware of levels that would result in 16 some health effects. 17 Q. What were the health effects you are making 18 reference to? 19 A. Depending on the amount of exposure and 2 0 frequency of exposure. And. by amounts I'm 2 1 talking not only of level, but time period, an 22 acute exposure as distinguished from the 2 3 prolonged low exposure. There was evidence that 24 chlorinated biphenyls, like other chlorinated 2 5 products, could result in skin problems and also TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016726 154 1 eventually liver problems. 2 Q. The skin problems -- are you finished with your 3 response? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Are you referring to chloracne? 6 A. That's one. 7 Q. Or dermatitis? 8 A. There were various symptoms that show up as the 9 exposure continues. What I call the early 10 warning symptom on skin problems is a reddening 11 of the skin like chapped hands. And if it gets 12 bad enough, you start bleeding from the cuts in 13 it. That's the early warning that tells you 14 maybe you should wear gloves or wash your hands 15 or do something, don't get it on the skin. 16 Continued exposures will also result in an acne 17 condition caused by the presence of chlorinated 18 materials. That is sort of a second step in the 19 progression. And by continuing the exposure, in 2 0 other words, not taking corrective action, you 2 1 can get the liver to the point where it is 2 2 affected seriously. 23 Q. When you say affected seriously, generally 2 4 speaking, there can be an enlargement of the 2 5 liver? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016727 155 1 A. Yes . 2 Q. There could be atrophy of the liver referred to 3 as yellow atrophy? 4 A. Yes . 5 Q. And there can be a situation similar to 6 cirrhosis of the liver? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And that could lead to death at certain levels? 9 A . Correct. 10 Q. The purpose of the February 9 letter that we've 11 identified was an attempt to, by Monsanto to 12 inform its customers that Aroclor 1254 and 13 Aroclor 1260 could be potentially dangerous 14 products; correct? 15 MR. TURET: Object ion . 16 MR. DiMURO: I '11 obj ect also 17 A. se the word "potent ially," yes 18 depends how much and where. And the attachment 19 really is an attempt to share with our customers 2 0 what the states were requiring in terms of water 2 1 presence. That's before the days of the EPA. 2 2 There was no Federal agency to monitor these 2 3 activities. 2 4 And this particular letter, as far as you know, 25 how was this letter served on customers that had TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016728 15 6 1 purchased Aroclor 1254 and Aroclor 1260? 2 A. I'm assuming -- how was the mailing list 3 determined? 4 Q. How was the mailing list determined and how 5 physically, how was the letter communicated or 6 given to the customers if you know? 7 A. The letter was mailed to customers on record of 8 at least three years' standing. That three-year 9 list was supplemented by searching records for 10 customers who had bought the product prior to 11 that three-year period, particularly in systems 12 that were still known to be in existence but the 13 customer hadn't needed topping off or refill 14 shipment, so the record was quiet for three 15 years, so to speak. It was also supplemented by 16 contacting Monsanto's field sales offices who 17 had files, notes, and the salesman's own address 18 book, so to speak, that he would make calls on. 19 So by putting all that information together, we 2 0 ended up with the mailing list and the mailing 2 1 was then determined by type of use as to who 2 2 signed the letter the customer received. If it 2 3 was, let's say a transformer user or maker, he 24 got his letter from a Mr. Olson. If it was a 2 5 plasticizer use, he got his letter from Mr. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016729 157 1 Schalk who represented the plasticizer 2 activity. I hope that's helpful. 3 Q. Yes, this is helpful. Do you know whether or 4 not mailing lists were devised, with regard to 5 the letter in February of 1970, for the letter, 6 was the mailing list developed? 7 A. Yes, that's the list I'm talking about. 8 Q. Right. And where did the letters go? Where 9 were they mailed to? 10 A. Generally it was an attempt made to address it 11 to the president of the company. 12 Q. Is there any specific reason why Monsanto 13 decided to send a letter directly to the 14 president of the company? 15 A. It was our sincere belief that if the top 16 manager gets a letter like this he's in the 17 position to pursue it and if necessary to 18 provide the resources it takes to make the 19 change, whatever it takes. It may take hiring 2 0 more people or buying a ventilator or a water 2 1 treatment plant. The president is in a better 2 2 position to get those resources to comply with 2 3 this suggestion. 24 Q. Now, another letter went out in June of 1970; 25 correct? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016730 158 1 A. That is correct. 2 Q. And we've had marked as Coaker No. 9 at Dr. 3 Coaker's deposition this June 1, 1970, letter 4 Bates Nos. MAE 054455 through 054457? 5 MR. DiMURO: Through 57? 6 MR. O'CONNOR: Uh-huh. 7 MR. DiMURO: Okay. 8 Q. Do you recall this letter going out? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And did you have any input into the letter 11 itself? 12 A. I was privileged to see the rough draft that Mr. 13 Schalk was working on. 14 Q. Were you working under Mr. Schalk at the time, 15 in essence? 16 A. No, I was reporting over to Mr. Bergen in the 17 functional fluids business group. 18 Q. The only reason Mr. Schalk signed off on that 19 letter was because he was affiliated with the 2 0 plasticizers group? 21 A. Correct. 2 2 Q. This letter informs customers that Monsanto was 2 3 no longer going to manufacture and distribute 24 PCBs for open uses as of August 30 , 1970 ; 2 5 correct? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016731 159 1 A. That is correct. 2 Q. What happened between February of 1970 and June 3 of 1970 that led Monsanto to make that decision? 4 A. Well, there were several things going on. We 5 were still, Monsanto was still trying to gather 6 the latest information. So in April and May Dr. 7 Keller, Mr. Wheeler and I went to Europe and 8 talked to the people in Sweden, London, Holland, 9 and talked to the other producers of PCBs in 10 like the people in Germany and the French and 11 the Italian. That took us to May and we came 12 back and shared our impressions with top 13 management in May. And also in May Mr. John 14 Mason spoke, made a presentation before the 15 corporate management committee and at that 16 meeting it was decided that we would bow out of 17 the plasticizer uses in open applications. And 18 that took us into June, so we moved as fast as 19 we could. 20 Q. During that time up until late August of 1970 2 1 Monsanto continued to sell Aroclor 1254 and 2 2 Aroclor 1260; correct? 2 3 A. That's correct. 2 4 Q. Mr. Turet had asked you earlier, it was a 2 5 regular or routine business practice for TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016732 160 1 customers to request items that they had prior 2 inventory on and items or products that they 3 were notified were going to cease to be sold and 4 distributed; correct? 5 A. Correct. 6 Q. Are you aware if any of Monsanto's customers 7 that purchased Aroclor 1254 or Aroclor 1260 8 stopped purchasing those items after the 9 February, 1970, letter? 10 A. I'm not aware of any such action. 11 Q. Do you know whether or not any company ordered 12 additional amounts of Aroclor 1254 and Aroclor 13 1260 after this June letter? 14 A. There is some evidence that those that didn't 15 have an easy replacement material were forced to 16 buy a little bit more than normal to buy them a 17 little more time after August 30 to replace the 18 PCB ingredient. 19 Q. And have you seen any statistics that, in fact, 2 0 sales for Aroclor 1254 and Aroclor 1260 21 increased from 1969 to 1970 during those years? 2 2 A. Yes. 2 3 Q. And even though in 1970 the Aroclor 1254 and 24 1260 were only sold from January to the end of 25 August of 1970, the volume of sales was higher TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016733 161 1 than the calendar year of 1969; correct? 2 A. That is correct. 3 Q. At some point in time Monsanto offered a 4 returned goods policy in essence to purchase 5 back the PCBs that they had sold; correct? 6 A. Yes, we've seen documentation today as to some 7 reference to that. 8 Q. There was very little return back to Monsanto; 9 correct? 10 A. That is correct. 11 Q. Why did Monsanto endeavor to purchase back or 12 develop a returned goods policy with regard to 13 PCBs? 14 A. I think it just boils down to a desire to 15 maintain good relationships and maintain a good 16 reputation, if you will, and there was also a 17 hope that by having a return policy the customer 18 would be tempted to try a substitute product 19 from Monsanto instead of going elsewhere. 2 0 Q. Was it an attempt by Monsanto to limit the use 21 -- strike that. Was it an attempt by Monsanto 2 2 to limit the amount of PCBs that were getting 2 3 into the environment at the time? 24 A. That was the whole purpose of this activity. 25 Q. Right, but specifically with regard to the TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016734 162 1 returned goods policy itself? 2 A. That is part of it, yes, because we didn't want 3 people disposing of this material in a quick and 4 easy way which could be an improper way. 5 Q. Why is that? 6 A. Well, some of these smaller operators would 7 contract out to hauling away of surplus material 8 and we never knew where it would end up. 9 Q. Did Monsanto have concerns about the effects 10 that PCBs might have on human beings as a result 11 of their customers' disposal of those products? 12 A. There is always this concern not knowing exactly 13 how it's handled. 14 Q. Were those concerns related to health risks? 15 A. Sometimes, yes. 16 Q. At some point in time Monsanto endeavored to 17 develop an incinerator system for PCBs; correct? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And in fact, by way of letters, Monsanto had 2 0 contacted customers and requested that they 2 1 return the goods and offered to actually 2 2 incinerate the PCBs for the customers; correct? 2 3 A. Yes. 1 2 4 Q. Did Monsanto provide any replacement suggestions 2 5 for any of the Aroclor line, 1254, 1260? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016735 163 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Did they -- did Monsanto go to efforts to 3 provide literature with regard to replacements 4 through the mail? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. By way of letters? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And what was that purpose? 9 A. To sell Monsanto chemicals. 10 Q. To hold onto the market; correct? 11 A. Right. 12 Q. While replacing the PCBs with Monsanto products 13 that didn't contain PCBs? 14 A. Correct. 15 Q. Do you have any idea of what the impact of that 16 communication was in terms of the PCBs for open 17 applications being pulled from the market and 18 Monsanto using non PCB containing replacements? 19 A. I have no measure of that. I have never seen 2 0 any data. 2 1 Q. Was it your understanding that Monsanto after it 22 stopped selling and distributing PCB containing 2 3 products for open uses lost a significant amount 2 4 of profits over, say the years '71 through '75? 25 A. I have no measure of it. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016736 164 1 Q. Do you know specifically with regards to 2 plasticizers if Monsanto offered any alternative 3 non PCB containing products for the replacement 4 of Aroclor 1254? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. What were some of those products? 7 A. They were the phosphate esters, the phthalate 8 esters and some of the maleic esters. I suspect 9 there were others, but I at the moment don't 10 recall them. 11 Q. Were those replacement products that you just 12 made reference to, were they available back in 13 the mid '60s? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Now, do you have any knowledge at all as to 16 whether or not Armstrong World Industries was 17 notified of Monsanto's decision to withdraw 18 Aroclor 1254 from the market? 19 A. Yes. 2 0 Q. And what's your knowledge? 2 1 A. They were on the mailing list of that June 2 2 letter and as I understand it, they were also on 2 3 American Mineral Spirits' mailing list. 24 Q. How about the documents that you made reference 25 to, the sales call reports that you talked taylo;r & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016737 165 1 about, documents that you said reviewed we 2 haven't looked at today; is that correct? 3 A. That's right. 4 Q. What time period were those from? 5 A. '71 time frame. 6 Q. What was the subject matter of those reports? 7 A. I have to ask. I've forgotten. They had to do 8 with PCBs. That's all I remember about them. 9 Q. Did it have to do with any discussions between 10 Monsanto employees and Armstrong employees with 11 reference to replacements for Aroclor 1254 as a 12 plasticizer? 13 A. I believe they did, but I am not certain. 14 Q. Let me show you, rather you can turn to a letter 15 dated September 23, 1970, Bates number MAE 16 054497. It's a two-page document 054498. You 17 remember any input that you had to this 18 particular letter? 19 A. I don't recall any input per se. I was aware 2 0 that it was being prepared and was going to be 2 1 sent out. 2 2 Q. Do you know at the time that this letter went 2 3 out in late September of 1970 whether or not 2 4 customers of Monsanto's who had purchased 2 5 Aroclor 1254 were continuing to use Aroclor 1254 TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016738 166 1 despite the evidence of a replacement that 2 didn't contain PCBs? 3 A. I was aware that those who had an inventory of 4 1254 continued to use up that inventory. 5 Q. Did Monsanto make any recommendations with 6 regard to the continued use of that inventory 7 other than what's contained in these letters? 8 A. I cannot speak for the field salesmen. I don't 9 know what they told them. 10 Q. So you wouldn't have any information with regard 11 to any field salespeople talking to Armstrong 12 about the continued use of Aroclor 1254 on 13 ceiling tiles? 14 A. Correct. 15 Q. Now, there were other letters that were sent out 16 with reference to items or products other than 17 the Aroclor line; correct? 18 A. Correct. 19 Q. Products that contained PCBs? 2 0 A. Correct. 2 1 Q. They were Therminols? 22 A. Is an example yes. 2 3 Q. Did Monsanto endeavor to contact customers who 24 were using different products that contained 25 PCBs? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016739 167 1 A. Certainly. 2 Q. Was Monsanto's primary concern initially, would 3 it be fair to say that their primary concern was 4 with regard to open uses of Aroclor 4254 and 5 Aroclor 1260? 6 MR. DiMURO: Object to the form, but 7 you can answer. 8 A. Primarily concerned? 9 Q. In 1970? 10 A. In 1970, those open uses were perceived to be 11 the bigger source of PCBs entering the 12 environment so there was a concern there. On 13 the other hand, there was also a concern of even 14 so-called closed systems that were allowed to 15 leak and run down the local streams and all were 16 of concern also, depending, of course, on the 17 size of the leak, so to speak. 18 Q. Nonetheless, Monsanto continued to manufacture 19 PCBs for use in closed systems such as 2 0 electrical transformers and heat transfer 2 1 fluids? 2 2 A. Yes. 2 3 Q. Up until 1977; correct? ' 24 A. Heat transfer fluids were eliminated by the end 2 5 of '72 as I remember. The electrical systems TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016740 168 1 lasted until 1977 and they are still in 2 existence, by the way. 3 Q. Do you have an understanding as to what 4 Armstrong did with the Aroclor 1254 that ended 5 up on the ceiling tiles? Do you have any 6 personal knowledge? 7 A. No, I don't. 8 Q. Do you know who at Armstrong made the decision 9 to utilize Aroclor 1254 for the plastisols in 10 the application for ceiling tiles? 11 A. I was never told. 12 Q. Do you know whether or not Monsanto ever gave 13 any recommendations to Armstrong World 14 Industries with reference to application of 15 Aroclor 1254 on ceiling tiles? 16 " A. No. 17 Q. Do you know whether or not Monsanto had ever 18 contemplated the use of Aroclor 1254 as a 19 component part of a plastisol coating 2 0 formulation for application to ceiling tile 2 1 prior to 1970? 2 2 A. It was never discussed in my presence. I don't 2 3 know anything about it. 24 Q. You would agree with me, Mr. Papageorge, that 2 5 certainly PCBs are not intended to be ingested; TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES ( 314 ) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 2.80-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016741 169 1 correct? 2 A. That's true. 3 Q. I was reading one of your transcripts and I 4 believe you made reference to Dr. Kelly used to 5 say that you're not supposed to put it in root 6 beer? 7 A. Put it in where, sir? 8 Q. Root beer? 9 A. That's right, yes. 10 Q. And you would also agree with me that PCBs are 11 not contemplated to be inhaled by human beings; 12 correct? 13 A. Correct. 14 Q. And PCBs are not contemplated to come in contact 15 with a person's skin; correct? 16 A. Correct. 17 Q. Were all of those factors, for example, the 18 ingestion, inhalation and skin contact part of 19 Monsanto's decision to withdraw Aroclors as open 2 0 uses in the early '70s? 21 MR. DiMURO: Object to the form. 22 A. Of course, there is certainly items that are 23 exposure that are constantly considered, but the 24 open use application was over and above that. 25 Because those so-called open uses were such that TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES ( 314 ) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 2.80-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016742 170 1 the PCBs would enter the environment but not 2 necessarily cause a skin exposure or inhalation 3 or ingestion. They could still be in the 4 environment. 5 Q. Would you agree with me that Monsanto 6 recommended avoiding open uses because the 7 ultimate user or consumer of the products that 8 contained PCBs couldn't control the material 9 from entering the environment? 10 A. That is true. 11 Q. Earlier Mr. Turet had discussed with you the use 12 of paints that contain PCBs. In your experience 13 as an employee at Monsanto, did Monsanto ever 14 provide any literature or suggest the use of 15 PCBs in paints in residential or commercial 16 premises, commercial office space for instance? 17 A. I don't recall any paint or coating application 18 using PCBs as ingredients, making any 19 distinction between commercial or residential or 2 0 outdoor applications. 2 1 Q. Are you familiar at all with the allegations of 2 2 this case with regard to levels of PCBs in terms 2 3 of parts per million that were found at the 24 college after the fire in the mid 1980s? 2 5 A. I believe I was told a number, but I don't TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) a80-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016743 17 1 1 remember it. 2 Q. Earlier you told us that you did not believe 3 that PCBs when used in a proper industrial 4 setting posed a health risk to human beings; 5 correct? 6 A. Correct. 7 MR. TURET: Objection, 8 mischaracterization of what he said. 9 Q. Is it also your belief that PCBs at certain 10 levels do not cause cancer? 11 MR. DiMURO: Objection to the form. 12 A. I would suggest that PCBs at any level has not 13 been shown to cause cancer, any known level. 14 Q. Are you familiar with NIOSH standards with 15 regard to permitted levels of PCB exposures? 16 MR. DiMURO; Speaking generally? 17 MR. O'CONNOR: Generally, any time, 18 any place? 19 A. Are you using the word NIOSH or OSHA? 2 0 Q. NIOSH. 2 1 A. I used to know, but I don't remember them 2 2 anymore. 2 3 Q. I'm not asking for specific levels. I'm just 24 asking generally if you have any knowledge about 2 5 NIOSH standards with regard to permissible TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES ( 314 ) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800 ) 2.80-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016744 172 1 levels of exposure. 2 A. Yes, we went through earlier that criteria 3 document and development of these exposure 4 levels and so on. 5 Q. You haven't done any analysis in this case with 6 regard to levels or parts per million of PCBs 7 that were found at the college or length of 8 exposures regarding these particular claimants? 9 A. I have not. 10 Q. So you don't have any opinion as to whether or 11 not these particular claimants in this case 12 suffered any physical injury as a result of 13 exposure to PCB levels at the college; correct? 14 A. I am in no position to know that. 15 Q. Eventually manufacturing of PCBs for closed uses 16 was stopped also; correct? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Manufacture and distribution? 19 A. Yes. 2 0 Q. What happened between June of 1970 and 1977 that 2 1 caused Monsanto to conclude that it would be 2 2 appropriate to completely stop the manufacturing 2 3 and distribution of PCBs? 24 A. I suspect that the major impetus came from the 2 5 passage of the Toxic Substances Control Act, TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES ( 314 ) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 2-80-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016745 173 1 which specifically mentioned PCBs and as I 2 remember they had a date of 1979, but Monsanto 3 beat that by a couple of years. 4 Q. Well, was Monsanto kept abreast of the TSCA 5 legislation as it was developed? 6 A. Yes, very much so. 7 Q. Did you have any personal involvement with 8 Monsanto's dealings with the government as it 9 related to TSCA? 10 A. No, not at that point where the passage was 11 imminent. 12 Q. Let me ask you if you know if Monsanto had 13 anticipated TSCA listing PCBs as a regulated 14 substance in the legislation? 15 MR. DiMURO: Objection to the form. 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Have you heard the term dibenzyl furans? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. What do you know about dibenzyl furans? 20 A. It's a hydrocarbon chemical. It's got some 2 1 oxygen in it. It's got that double benzene ring 22 configuration like PCBs do. What else can I say 2 3 about them -- they are not commercial products. 24 They are contaminants in other hydrocarbon 25 mixtures. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016746 174 1 Q. Are they frequently found with PCBs? 2 MR. DiMURO: Object. 3 A. I don't know how to define frequently. They 4 have been reported. 5 Q. To be found with PCBs? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Have you ever seen any literature, any 8 documentation related to the presence of 9 dibenzyl furans in Aroclor 1254 manufactured by 10 Monsanto? 11 MR. DiMURO: Could. I have that read 12 back? 13 (Question read.) 14 A. No, not from Monsanto material. 15 Q. You haven't seen any in Monsanto material. Has 16 anyone ever shown you a material safety data 17 sheet from General Electric? 18 MR. DiMURO: For any materials? 19 Q. With reference to dibenzyl furans and its 2 0 presence in Aroclor 1254? 2 1 A. I don't remember such a document. 2 2 Q. Earlier you had made reference to you had gone 23 to Europe between February of 1970 and June of 24 1970; is that correct? 25 A. Yes, sir. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016747 175 1 Q. And you met with various individuals in Sweden? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And also in the Netherlands? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. What did you do in the Netherlands? 6 A. We had a discussion with the researchers who 7 were finding these dibenzyl furans in PCBs. And 8 they, as I remember, had not found any in 9 Monsanto's material. But they had found it in 10 the French, the German, Spanish, Italian and at 11 that time the Czechoslovakian, Polish and 12 Russian samples. 13 Q. Well, did you discuss at all the health effects 14 on humans of dibenzyl furans with those people? 15 A. Yes, they did point out that these materials 16 were highly toxic. I don't recall that they 17 gave us any specific numbers in terms of levels 18 of exposure and all. Their primary interest was 19 the fact that they couldn't find it in Monsanto 2 0 material and were asking us why that was so. 2 1 That was the thrust of the discussion. 2 2 Q. Is it your understanding that PCBs manufactured 2 3 by Monsanto don't contain dibenzyl furans? 24 MR. DiMURO: Object to the form. You 2 5 can answer. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016748 176 1 A. I think as best I remember, the more recent 2 sophisticated analytical methodology was able to 3 finally detect extremely low levels of dibenzyl 4 furans. That occurred in about 1975 as I 5 recall. . 6 Q. In 1970 when you discussed PCBs and dibenzyl 7 furans with these gentlemen in the Netherlands, 8 did you discuss dibenzyl furans and their 9 relationship to the causation of cancer? 10 MR. DiMURO: Object to the form. 11 A. I don't recall cancer being a part of the 12 discussion. 13 Q. When did you first become aware that PCBs were 14 being related to cancer or as a cancer causing 15 agent? 16 MR. DiMURO: Objection to form. 17 A. I have a hard time picking any specific date. 18 It seems most of the allegations I heard came 19 from individuals associated with Environmental 2 0 Defense Fund, Natural Resources Council, even 2 1 the individual who was with Ralph Nader, doctor 22 -- I can't remember his name now. He's still 2 3 active. They kept bringing up the word 24 "cancer," but when I asked them about who's 2 5 studying it, can I go visit with them, I never TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016749 177 1 got any specific leads. 2 Q. How about Dr. Kimbrough? 3 A. Dr. Kimbrough conducted a study on rats. 4 Incidentally, she was on that NIOSH committee 5 with me that we talked about earlier back in 6 '76. Her study initially was interpreted by 7 her pathologist as indicating evidences of 8 cancer in her rats. By coincidence, the sample 9 of Aroclor 1260 she used was the very same lot 10 number Monsanto used in its studies with rats. 11 Now, Monsanto studies did not reveal this 12 evidence of cancer whereas Renate Kimbrough's 13 initial report indicated they found it. 14 Q. Let me stop you for one second. When you're 15 saying Monsanto studies, are you referring to 16 the studies performed by IBT? . 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. You refer to those as Monsanto studies? 19 A. Yes. 2 0 Q. Let me ask you something: Prior to Dr. 2 1 Kimbrough's studies, and I believe it was in the 2 2 mid '70s, 1974 or so, had you ever seen any 2 3 studies that linked PCBs with cancer? 2 4 MR. DiMURO: Object to the form. 2 5 A. Prior to '74 studies -- not to my knowledge. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016750 178 1 Q. Prior to 1974 it's fair to say that Monsanto 2 knew that certain levels of exposure to Aroclor 3 1254 or 1260 could cause chloracne or the 4 problems we discussed with the liver; correct? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And when Dr. Kimbrough's studies came out in 7 1974 Monsanto hired IBT to look at the slides? 8 MR. DiMURO: Object to the form. You 9 can answer. 10 A. Yes, there was some -- yes, there was an attempt 11 made to get a cooperative review with Dr. 12 Kimbrough's slides, yes. Dr. Kimbrough visited 13 with Monsanto and IBT people came by. Yes, we 14 did arrange for that. 15 Q. Now, the studies that Dr. Kimbrough did you made 16 reference to her pathologist, was that Dr. 17 Squire? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. After the Kimbrough studies, did Monsanto do 2 0 anything to contact customers about PCBs in 2 1 1974? 2 2 A. Not that I know of. 2 3 Q. The labels that we had discussed earlier that 2 4 went onto the Aroclor containing products, you 2 5 were actually responsible for coming up with the _ TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016751 179 1 supplement to the label that we discussed, I 2 believe it was 19-A and B, Papageorge? 3 A. Yes . 4 Q. Why is it at that time that you decided to 5 supplement what the prior Aroclor label had 6 been? Why did you feel it necessary to put on 7 some supplementary information? 8 A. At that point in 1970 Monsanto scientists, 9 analytical chemists and all were convinced that 10 PCBs were out there in the environment and we 11 should do everything we could to prevent misuses 12 and what have you that lead to presence in the 13 environment. We had already told our customers 14 by letters to control their activities to 15 prevent loss to the environment. And we decided 16 that it would also be beneficial to put it on 17 the label of the material which would not only 18 inform our customer and his employees but would 19 also be available to the shipping entities in 2 0 case of any accidents en route, for example, or 2 1 warehousing entities that, you know, stopping 22 points where the loads are transferred from one 23 truck to another kind of activities. This is 24 just another way to communicate. That same 25 paragraph appeared on our invoices, our bills of TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016752 180 1 lading and so forth. 2 Q. Do you recall a bulletin that was sent out to 3 users of various Aroclors, specifically the 4 higher Aroclors in March of 1970? 5 A. March of 1970, a bulletin. I'm having a hard 6 time remembering March of '70. 7 Q. Do you remember if you added or contributed any 8 information for a bulletin on Aroclors that was 9 significantly different in describing the 10 products than had existed prior to March of 11 1970? 12 A. My memory totally fails me because in March of 13 '70 we were so busy getting ready to go to 14 Europe, talking to our managers, I can't imagine 15 anything got into a bulletin. 16 Q. Can you tell me whether or not in March of 1970 17 whether Monsanto had a very serious concern 18 about PCBs getting into any food sources or any 19 food storage facilities? 2 0 MR. DiMURO: Objection to form. To 2 1 the extent you have any documentation, he's 22 having been trouble remembering that. 2 3 MR. O'CONNOR: If you recall, I told 24 you I didn't have documents. It was referenced 25 in one of the transcripts. I don't have any. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016753 181 1 If I had it, I would show it to him. 2 A. March of '70, I can associate nothing with that 3 month. 4 Q. Okay. Not a problem. But with regard to the 5 silo cases that were discussed earlier with Mr. 6 Turet, do you know when the first claim was made 7 that perhaps PCBs had gotten into grain or feed 8 that was given to cows and that PCBs had been 9 passed onto livestock? 10 A. As best I recall it was the summer of 1970. 11 Q. When the first claim was made? 12 A. When I first heard of it? 13 Q. How many silo cases were you involved in? 14 A. Oh, a couple in Ohio and maybe a couple in 15 Indiana. 16 Q. Do you know when those claims first arose? 17 A. I don't remember anymore. 18 Q. How about the case in Michigan where you went to 19 court and testified in Michigan, do you know 2 0 when that case was? 2 1 A. That was later than the others. 2 2 Q. It was later than the others, that's okay. How 2 3 about Georgia or Tennessee, do you recall any 2 4 silo cases in Georgia or Tennessee? 2 5 A. There weren't cases, but there were inquiries TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016754 182 1 made by the authorities to Monsanto. I don't 2 recall any cases per se. 3 Q. Do you recall a situation in North Carolina with 4 a chicken farmer? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Did you get involved in that particular 7 situation? 8 A. Yes, I did. 9 Q. Did litigation develop out of that? 10 A. I don't recall a court trial; deposition, yes. 11 Q. Would you agree with me that at some point in 12 time Monsanto developed a serious concern for 13 PCBs being present in buildings where food was 14 being stored or served to humans or animals? 15 MR. DiMURO: Object to the form. 16 A. Yes. The presence of PCBs in animal food and 17 human food was of deep concern to Monsanto. In 18 fact, this led to the program for changing out 19 heat transfer systems, particularly those 2 0 involved with food processing. 2 1 Q. Why was it of particular concern to Monsanto? 2 2 A. Because we didn't want an industrial chemical 2 3 present in people's food. 24 Q. Why is that? 2 5 A. It's hard to describe, but since it adds nothing TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016755 183 1 to the food value, can be avoided, we know 2 nothing about its final effects after long 3 exposures, it's just not considered prudent. 4 Q. Well, was it a concern of Monsanto -- was a 5 concern of Monsanto potential health risks to an 6 industrial chemical being introduced to a human 7 being or livestock? 8 A. Yes, it's a potential unknown health risk. 9 Q. Let me ask you, were any studies done on the 10 livestock that were alleged to have ingested 11 PCBs by Monsanto? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Do you have any information or any literature at 14 all as to any health effects with regard to 15 those particular -- with that particular 16 livestock that was involved in the silo cases? 17 A. No, I heard nothing. 18 (Brief recess.) 19 Q. Mr. Papageorge, earlier you told me that when 20 you were in the Netherlands you had a discussion 21 with certain individuals related to dibenzyl 22 furans, and you also told me that you 2 3 subsequently learned the dibenzyl furans are 24 very toxic; correct? 25 A. Yes. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016756 184 1 Q. You are aware that with regard to housekeeping 2 recommendations and instructions for employees 3 at Monsanto in handling Aroclor 1254 and 1260 4 there is literature that references that Aroclor 5 1254 is toxic; correct? 6 MR. DiMURO: Could you read that 7 back, please? 8 (Question read.) 9 A. I believe the literature you're referring to 10 refers to the potential effect of the 11 overexposure of Aroclor 1254 and 1260 to the 12 point as we have discussed earlier where the 13 liver could be seriously harmed. But when you 14 refer to the housekeeping reference, I don't 15 think you mean the sweeping of the floor or 16 things like that. Are you talking about the -17 Q. I'm talking about specific literature that 18 references the handling of Aroclor 1254 and 19 Aroclor 1260 that simply states this product is 20 toxic. 2 1 MR. DiMURO: Object to the form. 22 A. I don't know that it simply states that. It 2 3 does suggest it should not be on your skin, you 24 should not breathe the fumes, avoid these 2 5 things, take corrective action. That's the kind TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016757 185 1 of message' that was conveyed. 2 Q. And the same question with regard to a 3 description of Aroclor 1254 or 1260 as noxious? 4 MR. DiMURO: Object to the form 5 again. 6 A. Noxious, I have a hard time remembering that 7 reference. It could be. I just don't recall 8 it. 9 Q. Okay. 10 MR. DiMURO: Brian, to the extent you 11 have a document you want to show him to refresh 12 his recollection. 13 MR. O'CONNOR: I don't have the 14 documents. They were exhibits that were marked 15 at a previous trial and I've reviewed 16 transcripts. And I haven't had an opportunity 17 to request those documents from you. It's only 18 in the last couple days I've gone over those 19 transcripts. We can go back over the trial 2 0 testimony if you want. To the extent I had a 2 1 document, I would certainly show it to him. 2 2 MR. DiMURO: Okay. 2 3 Q. Getting back to Dr. Kimbrough's studies, Mr. 2 4 Papageorge, that was in the early '70s about 2 5 1974; correct? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016758 186 1 A . Yes. 2 Q. Had you seen any other studies that had data 3 which predated that report by Dr. Kimbrough with 4 regard to PCBs and adverse health effects on 5 humans? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Now, you told me earlier that after Dr. 8 Kimbrough did her studies a pathologist named 9 Dr. Squire interpreted the slides taken from the 10 rats and concluded that there is some evidence 11 of carcinoma; correct? 12 A. Correct. 13 Q. And I believe you told me that you then went out 14 or Monsanto then went out and did their own 15 studies through IBT; correct? 16 A. The Monsanto studies were completed before Dr. 17 Kimbrough's studies. 18 Q. The studies by IBT, when were they done prior to 19 Dr. Kimbrough's? 20 A. As I remember, they were completed late '71, 2 1 early 1972. 2 2 Q. Did you see a trip report from a DE Gordon at 2 3 IBT addressed to Dr. Levinskas from March of 24 1975? 2 5 A. I remember Dr. Gordon, and of course I know Dr. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016759 187 1 Levinskas. I don't associate a trip report with 2 those two. It doesn't mean it didn't exist. 3 Q. Let's see, we've had marked at Dr. Levinskas' 4 deposition as Levinskas 6 previously marked at 5 his deposition as Levinskas 15, a trip report 6 dated March 24 of 1975? 7 MR. TURET: You want in me to pull it 8 out? 9 Q. Mr. Papageorge, let me give you that. Take a 10 minute to look at the document. And let me ask 11 you first, do you recall having seen that 12 document before? 13 A. I have no recollection of this document. I'm 14 aware of the activity it seems to be describing. 15 Q. Take a look at the conclusion. 16 A. Can you help me find the conclusion section? 17 Q. Well, let me show you specifically what's been 18 attached. And I'll bring your attention to the 19 last two pages which is Ward R. Richter, Doctor 2 0 of Veterinary Medicine, appears to be board 21 certified as a veterinary pathologist. Do you 22 recall having seen that document at all prior to 23 today? 24 A. I do not recall it. 25 Q. Do you recall being cross examined by the TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES ( 314 ) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 2-80-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016760 188 1 plaintiff's attorney in the Bechtel versus 2 Monsanto case in August of 1994? 3 MR. DiMURO: Deposition or at trial? 4 MR. O'CONNOR: At trial. 5 Q. Do you recall the plaintiff's attorney showing 6 you that document? 7 A. Boy, I'm having a hard time -- doesn't look 8 familiar at all. The format -- my memory fails 9 me . 10 Q. Okay. Do you recall telling me earlier that Dr. 11 Squire who worked for Dr. Kimbrough had 12 concluded that the slides revealed carcinoma? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Do you recall being cross examined on Dr. 15 Richter's findings with this document in the 16 trial of Bechtel versus Monsanto matter? 17 A. No, that doesn't ring any bell. Dr. Richter -18 I just can't associate Dr. Richter with that 19 trial or with this. 2 0 Q. Why don't you read out loud the paragraph 21 enumerated No. 5? 22 A. "However, the lesions in Dr. Kimbrough's studies 2 3 were more severe than those in the Bio-Test 24 studies. The lesions that she and Dr. Squire 25 are calling carcinoma are also carcinomas by my TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016761 189 1 criteria. I would conclude from an examination 2 of their material that Dr. Kimbrough's study3 demonstrated carcinogenicity." 4 Q. Let me ask you again, Mr. Papageorge, does that 5 refresh your recollection as to the cross 6 examination at the Bechtel versus Monsanto 7 trial? 8 A. I just can't recall that. 9 Q. Do you recall working at all with Dr. Richter? 10 A. Well, I met the man in my visit to Industrial 11 Bio-Test Laboratories. He did make some 12 presentations and that's about as close as we 13 got professionally. 14 Q. But he's an employee of IBT obviously, correct, 15 or was back in '75? 16 A. He was performing some studies for Industrial 17 Bio-Tech. I do not know if he was an employee 18 or a contract consultant. 19 Q. Do you know how long he worked there? 2 0 A. I don't know that. 2 1 Q. Do you know if he had done any other type of 2 2 laboratory testing on behalf of Monsanto? 2 3 A. Not to my knowledge. 2 4 Q. Now, Dr. Calandra was the president of IBT; 2 5 correct? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016762 190 1 A. Correct. 2 Q. Did you, or rather I should say Monsanto, after 3 Dr. Kimbrough's studies, did Monsanto hire IBT 4 to do anything else other than review these 5 particular slides with IBT? 6 MR. DiMURO: When you say these 7 particular slides - 8 MR. O'CONNOR: The rat liver slides 9 taken by Dr. Kimbrough and reexamined by Dr. 10 Richter as contained in this trip report. 11 A. I don't know of any other studies that Monsanto 12 had asked of IBT. 13 Q. You told me that IBT did their own studies late 14 '71, '72? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And what did those studies reveal with regard to 17 cancer and PCBs? 18 A. They revealed no carcinogenic effects. 19 Q. And is that the basis for your opinion or your 20 belief, those particular studies, that PCBs do 2 1 not cause cancer? 2 2 MR. DiMURO: That one study? 2 3 MR. O'CONNOR: Not the one study, if 24 that's a part of his basis for his opinion or 25 belief. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES ( 314 ) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 2-80-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016763 191 1 MR. DiMURO: Object to the form. 2 A. That supports my previously held understanding 3 that nothing was available that would say with 4 certainty that PCBs cause carcinogenesis. 5 Q. Does Dr. Kimbrough's report change your opinion 6 in any way or your belief? 7 A. At the time, I along with others were 8 questioning Dr. Kimbrough. Following that 9 period, and I think it happened in about 1977 or 10 so, Dr. Kimbrough withdrew her conclusions. 11 Q. What about Dr. Richter? 12 A. I don't know how he felt. 13 Q. So you don't believe you ever saw this document 14 back in 1975? 15 A. I just don't recall seeing it. That doesn't 16 mean I didn't see it. I just don't remember. 17 Q. Back in the early '70s, can you describe the 18 relationship between Monsanto and IBT. 19 A. Well, I'll try. IBT was probably the most 2 0 professional contract animal testing laboratory 21 in the country. It was used not only by 2 2 Monsanto but other large companies. It was 2 3 considered probably the best contract laboratory 24 available. Even those companies that had their 2 5 own laboratories would contract their work to TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016764 192 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 IBT when their laboratories just couldn't handle the workload. My personal exposure to the IBT labs where I visited several times, I found them to be highly professional. They had the latest in equipment, and I've been in laboratories, so I had a feel for the atmosphere and the people and the way they conducted their businesses and all. The visit back in the animal cages and areas I found impressive, frankly. They were immaculate. I was thoroughly impressed personally as a nontoxicologist. The presentations made by the staff to a nontoxicologist I also found impressive in that they were able to communicate in language I thought I understood. So to conclude, it was a darn good laboratory in my opinion. Q. How long had IBT been doing work for Monsanto prior to the early '70s? A. It started about 1954, I think was their first bit of business. Q. Isn't it true that IBT's primary business was servicing the chemical industry? A. I don't know how to measure that. I know that many chemical companies used their services. I have no way of knowing if that was the major TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES ( 314 ) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800 ) 2-80-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016765 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 193 part or whether they had enough other kinds of businesses. Q. Well, IBT was aware of Monsanto's philosophy with regard to allegations of PCBs and harm to human beings back in the late '60s, weren't they? MR. DiMURO: Object to the form. MR. LIPSHUTZ: Objection to the form. A. I have no way of knowing what IBT was aware of in Monsanto. Q. Do you think that IBT was objective when they performed their studies in '71 and '72? A. I have no reason to believe otherwise. Q. Well, Dr. Calandra, was he ever employed at Monsanto? A. No, not to my knowledge. Q. Earlier we had a document marked Papageorge No. 3. Who is Joe Calandra? A. That's him, that's Dr. Calandra. Q. Do you remember Mr. Turet was asking you about this March 10, 1969, meeting and it's marked Papageorge No. 3, and if we turn to the third page, Bates No. MAE 053279, there is a reference to "defense seems to have these elements" and TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016766 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 194 there are five Roman numerals; correct? A. Yes. Q. Doesn't this establish what Monsanto's position was with regard to the allegations of Aroclor 1254 back in March of 1969? MR. DiMURO: Object to the form. You can answer it. MR. LIPSHUTZ: Would you read back that question? (Question read). MR. LIPSHUTZ: I want to object to the form of the question. MR. DiMURO: Objection noted. A. The items listed here by Dr. Richard cover some of the elements that Monsanto felt were appropriate to the PCB environmental issue. It does not cover all of them. Q. Sure. Do you recall this meeting yourself? A. I wasn't there. Q. Okay. Do you know whether or not there was any discussion at this meeting about Monsanto's position that Aroclor 1254 was not necessarily harmful to human beings? MR. DAVIDSON: At that meeting? He just told you he wasn't at that meeting. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016767 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 195 MR. O'CONNOR: I just asked him if he knew. MR. DiMURO: Objection to the form. MR. TURET: I'll object to the form. A. Not having been there and that type of subject was not discussed in my tutorial, I'm left with the impression this meeting was the contact with the laboratory to begin more extensive studies on PCBs than is normally done for industrial chemicals. That was the intent of such meeting. And I also am left with the impression at the time that we discussed this with Mr. Wheeler is that this is the first time that Dr. Calandra and his lieutenants there, his staff, really knew about such things as PCBs. Q. Well, it's true, isn't it, that Dr. Calandra was the president of IBT at this time? A. Yes, sir. Q. In 1969? A. Yes, sir. Q. And he was the president of the lab that was going to perform objective tests and studies as to whether or not PCBs were related to cancer; correct? MR. DiMURO: I'll object to the TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016768 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 196 form. A. No, that was not his assignment. He was to study PCBs, the three types that were offered to him as materials to be studied, to determine the long-term effects on test animals and hopefully extrapolate from that the possible human effects. And these tests were the kind of tests that are used to approve materials for food and cosmetic use, which was unique for industrial chemicals. Q. When was it that, specifically that IBT was asked to do studies or tests related to PCBs and cancer? MR. DiMURO: Objection to form. A. The only studies with that specific connection to cancer was the review of the Renate Kimbrough slides. Q. Well, what did IBT do for Monsanto in '70, '71? A. They exposed test rats to various levels of PCBs over their lifetime. And every six months or so they would take samples, and of course they would do the other testing, blood testing and weight and food intake and all these other parameters to determine what effect, if any, the PCBs were having on the test animals. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016769 197 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Did you have any contact directly with Dr. Calandra about those particular studies? A. Yes. MR. DiMURO: You're talking the first studies or review of the slides? MR. O'CONNOR: The first studies. A. I am referring to the lifetime studies on the rats conducted at Industrial Bio-Test, late '69, 1970, completed in '71. Q. At some point in time IBT ran into some criminal problems; correct? A. I'm sorry? Q. The principals of IBT ran into some criminal problems? A. I read that in a local newspaper. That's the only information I have. Q. What was your understanding? A. That some of the studies they conducted were flawed, and I don't know the details of this, and these are not studies conducted for Monsanto to my knowledge. Q. What were they studies in reference to, do you have any idea? A. No, I don't recall anymore. It was studies or materials from other chemical companies. I TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016770 198 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 don't know the details anymore. Q. What time frame was that? A. About 19 -- late '70s is as close as I can come. Q. Do you know what the outcome was? Were any of those gentlemen convicted of a crime? A. All I remember is that Dr. Calandra had a health problem and he was somehow excused from any - what's the word I'm looking for -- he was not sent to prison or anything because of this health problem. That's all I remember. Q. Do you know if any of the employees of IBT were sent to prison? A. I don't know that. Q. Were you at all involved in or investigated with any dealings that you had with IBT? . A. No. Q. In 1975, IBT was working on two-year rat feeding studies on behalf of Monsanto; correct? MR. DiMURO: When was that? MR. O'CONNOR I guess we can have this marked as -- or it already was marked as Levinskas 9. MR. DiMURO: What was the question? Q. If he had any knowledge of work that IBT was doing with regard to -- and I just read the ______________ (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016771 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 199 reference line that Dr. Levinskas' letter refers to. A. I understood your question to infer that studies were underway in 1975. Q. Right. A. This is a letter to Dr. Calandra from Dr. Levinskas in which he is referring to the report of the studies that were completed in 1972 or so. The study was completed back then. Q . Right. A. This is an attempt to summarize the findings and Dr. Levinskas was asked to comment. Q. Well, have you ever seen this document before? A. I believe I have a recollection of seeing this. Yes, I have seen it, but I don't remember under what circumstances. Q. Hold onto that. Do you see a reference in there where Dr. Levinskas asks Dr. Calandra to amend part of the report on Aroclor 1254 so that it reads, "does not appear to be carcinogenic" in place of "slightly tumorigenic"? A. Yes, I remember the discussion that was held at that time. Q. In 1975? A. Or thereabouts. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016772 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 200 Q. Why would Dr. Levinskas go back and ask Dr. Calandra to change a report that had been completed approximately three years earlier? MR. DiMURO: I'll object to the form, and I don't know if that recharacterizes it correctly, a report that had been done three years ago, but subject to that you can answer it. A. As I recall, Dr. Levinskas didn't join Monsanto when these early versions were put together. It's later when he was asked to review them that he came across what he perceived to be different terminology for the same kind of data and he was trying to be consistent. And this is why he made this comment about the difference in the two conclusions. Q. Well, did you have any discussions with him as to why he felt that it was more preferable to have, does not appear to be carcinogenic versus slightly tumorigenic? A. I had discussions and as I recall his comments really had to do with this is the conclusion the toxicologists normally would reach, and he was trying to reflect that professional approach that he was accustomed to than he was really TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016773 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 2 01 disagreeing with what the original authors of the reports had done. Q. Dr. Levinskas was? A. Yes. It was my understanding also that different people wrote each of the three reports and this is why you ended up with a case where different terminology was used in one of them. Q. Did Dr. Calandra make the changes as suggested? A. Yes, they did. Q. Now, you've appeared in trial before and discussed those particular studies; correct? A. Yes. Q. Have you appeared at any hearings and discussed those particular studies? A. Any hearings? Q. Sure, in front of any Federal or governmental agency? A. I don't recall if I mentioned these studies in my presentation to the congressional committee. . I would be very surprised if I didn't. Q. When was your presentation to the congressional committee? A. About '74 or so. I believe I mentioned these studies. It's in the writeup. Q. At any time after these changes were made, did TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016774 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 202 you testify as to these particular studies and what they found? MR. DiMURO: Before testifying at a hearing, trial? Q. At a hearing, trial any place? A. I don't remember any discussion of that type. Q. When you say discussion of that type, what are you making reference to? A. I recall that with this NIOSH committee meeting in '76 we discussed these studies, but that was not, in my opinion, a hearing, it was a committee trying to pull all these various thoughts together and come up with a document. Q. At that NIOSH meeting, did you mention to anyone that Dr. Levinskas had requested that Dr. Calandra change the language of the report from slightly tumorigenic to not appearing to be carcinogenic? A. No, no more than I did any other suggested changes. Q. I believe that's all I have for you. Let me just look through my notes if Mr. Turet would like to proceed. MR. TURET: I think probably Mr. Lipshutz who's been waiting patiently for a few (314) TAYL0R & associates 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016775 2 03 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 hours. MR. LIPSHUTZ: Mr. Papageorge, you need a break? THE WITNESS: No, I'm all right. EXAMINATION QUESTIONS BY MR. LIPSHUTZ: Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Papageorge. I've been waiting patiently to ask you a few questions. My name is Gary Lipshutz. I'm an attorney in New Jersey. Can you hear me okay, sir? A. Yes, I can. Q. I'm participating in this deposition via telephone. I have a number of questions I would like to ask you, and I'm going to ask you about some documents as well. But first I would like to go back to your employment history you testified to earlier. In the late '60s you were plant manager at the Anniston, Alabama, plant? A. Yes. Q. Do they manufacture PCBs at that plant or did they at that time? A. Yes. Q. Did they manufacture Aroclor 1254 at that plant? A. Yes. . TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016776 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 204 Q. Were there other plants where they manufactured Aroclor 1254 or was that the sole plant? A. There were other plants. Q. You also testified that everything crossed your desk when you were the plant manager, you were responsible for everything; is that correct? A. I was responsible, but I don't know that everything crossed my desk. Q. Okay. That's more of a euphemism there. But as plant manager you were responsible for a number of items including shipping, handling, packaging, hiring, training and a few other things you talked about; is that right? A. That is correct. Q. Can you tell me what sort of responsibilities you had in the shipping area, the overview of the shipping area? A. Well, I'll try. Of course -Q. I'm referring to this time frame when you were the plant manager in Anniston, Alabama? A. I understand. My responsibility there was to make certain that the shipping orders were followed to the letter by the personnel in my shipping department, that the proper documents were prepared and accompanied the shipment, that TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES ( 314 ) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800 ) 2-80-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016777 2 05 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 the material that was being shipped was in the proper container and properly labeled, and documented in terms of what it was and its, what we called lot number, which fixed when the particular material was manufactured. Q. Let me ask you a couple questions about the lot numbers. Where.did that number come from? Was there some sort of a -- let me just ask you where did the lot number specifically come from? A. The lot number is selected by the supervisor of the producing unit and it can take any one of several forms. Many of them are just consecutive numbers starting with one and ending up with thousands. There are others that use an alphabetical code to designate the year. For example, A might be year 1970 and B 1971 and so on. And the letters then followed by a number designating which lot was made first and second and third and so on. So that's just an example of the kinds of numbers that can be selected. Q. Were there also -- did the lot numbers also signify the product? Were they product specific is my question to you. A. Well, sometimes. This also depended on the supervisor of the operation. He could have TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016778 206 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 selected certain numbers or alphabetical codes to specify what materials. Q. What about if a product was being manufactured in two different plants, how would you signify what plant it came from? A. The lot numbers would be different. Q. So each plant will have a specific lot number? A. Yes. Q. Or a specific style of lot number? A. Yes. There was a lot of diversity here. Q. Do you know back in 19 -- let me rephrase that. Do you know back at the time you were plant manager how many plants manufactured Aroclor 12 54? A. In this country or worldwide? Q. In this country. A. It was the Anniston, Alabama, plant and the William G. Krummrich plant located in Sauget, Illinois, S-A-U-G-E-T. Q. So to your knowledge there were only two plants that manufactured Aroclor 1254? A. Yes. Q. If you would take a look at, sir, the documents that have been marked 19-A and B, they would be shipping labels? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016779 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 207 A. I remember them. Q. Would you tell me when you have them in front of you, sir? A. I have copies in front of me. Q. Specifically let me refer you to 19-A? A. I have it. Q. I believe you testified that this was the label that was used prior to May 1970; is that correct? A. That is correct. Q. Were there any other iterations of this label that were used prior to 1970? Let me rephrase the question. Do you know when this label was adopted by Monsanto? A. I would suggest that from the printing on the label itself in the bottom right-hand corner you will see a zero five slash five three. Q. Yes, I do see that. A. That's May, 1953, is when this particular label was cataloged into the system. Q. Is that based upon your experience of how the labels are created at Monsanto? A. Yes. Q. Let me ask you to look at 19-B, if I may, sir? A. 19-B, yes, sir. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEP0 WATER PCB-SD0000016780 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 208 Q. And you've indicated you testified this was the label that was used as of May 1970; is that correct? A. That is true. Q. And if you look at the bottom right-hand corner, that label has a designation 11/53? A. I cannot explain that. I don't know what that is telling me. Q. So is it your testimony now that you're not sure when the 19-A, the first label was first started to be used by Monsanto? A. No. What I am saying, sir, is that we are looking at two labels for the same product, but you will notice the format of the two is different. Q. Yes, I do notice that. A. I'm interpreting these dates as meaning in May of 1953 Exhibit 19-A was designed and used. Q. What would you be interpreting - A. The following November, somebody in the label office decided to restructure the format. Q. But the paragraph on the right of 19-B? A. The paragraph on the right was added, but the date was not changed. Q. I see what you're saying. These labels you also TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES ( 3 14 ) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 2-80-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016781 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 209 testified were the labels which were attached to drum shipments? A. Yes, sir. Q. Were similar type labels attached to pail shipments? A. Yes. Q. What sort of labels or documents -- let me rephrase the question. What other documents would accompany a drum shipment of Aroclor 1254 to a customer? A. Well, there would be a normal bill of lading that would go with each truckload. Q. Is there anything else you can think of? A. Nothing that would accompany the shipment itself. Q. Is there some other type of a document that is in your mind that, what might not accompany the shipment but otherwise might be given to a customer? A. Yes. He would receive a copy, for example, of the bill of lading, in addition to what accompanies the load, he would receive it in the mail. He would also receive, of course, the invoice. Q. Is there any other type of literature which TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016782 210 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 would accompany a shipment of Aroclor 1254? A. Literature, no. It would not accompany the shipment. Q. What about, was Aroclor 1254 shipped in tank loads? A. Yes. Q. What sort of documents would accompany a tank shipment of Aroclor 1254? A. Up until 1972 the only document would be the bill of lading. Q. Would this, would there be a label similar to 19-A that would accompany the bill of lading? A. Not before 1972. Q. But of course in 1972 Monsanto is not shipping Aroclor 1254; is that correct? A. It's shipping to some uses. Q. Okay, that's correct? A. And a copy of the label we're looking at which is referred to as Exhibit 19-B would be put in a plastic envelope and attached to the dome of the tank car. Q. So is this before or after 1972? A. After '72. Q. Again, focusing your attention to 19-A, the lower right-hand corner above the weight 600 TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016783 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 211 pound section, the net legal 600 pound is an area for lot number and packer? A. Yes . Q. Do you see that, sir? A. Yes. Q. You indicated that the supervisor of the producing unit would select the lot number. Once the Aroclor 1254 was placed into the drums, would a lot number then be affixed to this label? A. The lot number normally is affixed to the label before it's placed on the drum. Q. Was that something that was typed in or written in? A. That was stamped in. Q. That was stamped in by the packer? A. Yes, sir. In addition to that, there would be stenciled on top of the drum that same lot number in case the label was damaged or erased or lost. Q. In your experience what sort of quantities, in your experience as the production manager or the plant manager in Anniston, what sort of quantities would be in a typical lot of Aroclor 1254? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES : (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016784 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 212 A. Oh, it would vary from -- it could go as much as 10,000 gallons. Q. And as little as? A. Little as maybe a thousand gallon tank full or you could accumulate ten of those in a big tank and take a sample and call that the lot. Q. In the -- again, 19-A has been referred to the label that would be attached to drums. Just to be clear, labels which were attached to other containers, what was the term we were using before? A. The pail. Q. Pail, correct, that's correct. Would that also have the lot number designation as well? A. Yes. Q. If I could focus your attention to a document which I provided to your counsel earlier, it's an Armstrong document which was produced by Armstrong in this matter. MR. LIPSHUTZ: Mr. DiMuro, could you hand that document to Mr. Papageorge? MR. DiMURO: He's got it in front of him. MR. TURET: What's the Bates number? MR. LIPSHUTZ: Bates No. A 040024. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES ( 314 ) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 2-80-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016785 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 213 MR. TURET: Thanks. MR. LIPSHUTZ: It might be a good idea, let's mark this document 21. (Lot number list marked as Exhibit No. 21 for identification.) MR. DiMURO: Go ahead, Gary. Q. Mr. Papageorge, is the document that's been marked Papageorge 21, is that in front of you, sir? A. Yes, it is. Q. Have you had an opportunity to look at this document? A. I'm looking at it now. Q. This is a document that was produced by Armstrong in this litigation and it's a document from their Lancaster, Pennsylvania, plant laboratory. It's been alleged that this document sets forth 21 shipments of Aroclor 1254 received by Armstrong and also the document shows -- let me rephrase that. Armstrong has also alleged that it received Aroclor 1254 from either Monsanto or American Mineral Spirits or both. With that in mind, sir, would you look at the second column that says lot number? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES ( 314 ) 644-219 1 * TOLL FREE (800) 2-80-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016786 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 214 A . I see it. Q. In your experience as plant manager at Anniston, one of the two facilities where Aroclor 1254 was manufactured, are these lot numbers consistent with lot numbers Monsanto would use for its product? A. Yes. MR. DiMURO: Object to form. A. Yes, they are. Q. So the alphabetical and numerical designation is consistent with your earlier -- let me strike that. Do you recognize these lot numbers specifically as lot numbers used by Monsanto for Aroclor 1254? MR. TURET: Objection. A. I can't say that for certain. All I can tell you is that they make sense to me and I see the features that I tried to describe earlier and maybe I didn't do a good job on it. Q. Is that why you're saying they make sense to you? A. Yes, sir. I see the letter A which tells me Anniston. And I see the letter K which is associated with the year 1968. Later on 1969 becomes L, and 1970 becomes M. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016787 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 215 Q. Was that a feature of items which were manufactured at the Anniston facility while you were plant manager? A . Yes, sir. Q. You've testified, sir, that you had no direct dealings with American Mineral Spirits. Let me rephrase that question. You've testified that you didn't speak with any representative of American Mineral Spirits; is that correct? A. That is correct. Q. I want to let you know I represent American Mineral Spirits in this matter. I don't know if I told you. MR. DiMURO: Sandbagging the witness. MR. LIPSHUTZ: I have another area I want to ask you about. Q. You talked about reviewing call reports to customers prior to this deposition? A. Yes . Q. Is there such a thing as a call report for a distributor, to your knowledge? A. I don't know how distributors operate, so I cannot answer that. I don't know. Q. But did you or did you not look at call reports to distributors in preparation of this TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016788 216 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 deposition? MR. DiMURO: I think he just testified he didn't know if there were call reports for distributors. Q. So the only call reports that you looked at was for customers? A. This was Monsanto sales representative describing a visit he made to a customer. Q. And in your experience at Monsanto, it was common for a Monsanto sales representative to fill out a report after he visited a customer? MR. DiMURO: I'll object to the form. He can answer if he knows. Q. It's up to the -- let me ask you a more direct question. I'm sorry to interrupt you. A. Go ahead. Q. Do you know if it was -- do you know if sales representatives would prepare call reports of their meetings with customers? A. It was up to the sales representative to make that determination. Sometimes they would make out a call report, sometimes they would not. Q. But you have no knowledge as to whether salesman would make reports of their meetings with distributors? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016789 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 217 A. I don't recall seeing any that referred to such a meeting. MR. LIPSHUTZ: I want to go off the record a second. (Discussion off the record) MR. LIPSHUTZ: Back on the record. Q. Sir, I would like to take a look at Papageorge Exhibit No. 8. Do you have that document in front of you? A. I have it. Q. You do have it? A. Yes. Q. Do you know when this document was produced? A. It doesn't have a specific date on it but it does refer to the year 1970 and in its context here it refers to a mailing that was made to direct Monsanto customers which was early 1970. And on Page 2, the last sentence refers to the letters will be mailed from St. Louis about the end of February. This tells me that this particular document was put together sometime January, early February of 1970. Q. And you might have answered this question earlier, I apologize. Did you help prepare this document? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES ( 314 ) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800 ) 2-80-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016790 218 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A . No . Q. Do you know who prepared this document? A. I would be speculating. I can tell you that, not the person but the Monsanto department that issued it is the plasticizers group in Monsanto. Q. If you would look at Page 3? A. I have it. Q. Right about the end of the top paragraph, the letter talks about a visit with distributors Central Solvent and American Mineral Spirits? A. I see that. Q. Do you know -- strike that. You were not the individual who went to American Mineral Spirits; is that correct? A. I was not. Q. Do you know who on behalf of Monsanto went to American Mineral Spirits? A. I do not. Q. Do you know what was discussed -- strike that. Do you have any firsthand knowledge as to what was discussed at the meeting with American Mineral Spirits? A. I was informed that Central Solvents and American Mineral Spirits were brought up-to-date regarding that letter that Monsanto sent out in TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016791 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 2 19 February or will send out at this point in time, will send out in February informing its customers about the presence of PCBs in the environment. Q. Is that what you mean by when you say up-to-date? A. I'm sorry? Q. You just said the distributors were brought up-to-date. Is that what you mean, they were informed of the letter? A. I'm sorry, the distributor was told that, yes, they were brought up-to-date regarding Monsanto's plans for sending out a letter informing it's customers of the discovery of PCBs in the environment, which kind of PCBs these were and the need to handle them in such a way that it would not enter the environment. Q. Now, do you recall who told you this information? A. Mr. Schalk. Q. And did Mr. Schalk present to you in a manner in which he was the gentleman who went to the distributors' offices or was it that someone else from Monsanto went? A. I got the impression that someone else went. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016792 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 220 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to whether American Mineral Spirits -- let me rephrase that question. To your knowledge, the purpose of the meeting was solely to address the information contained in the February letter; is that correct? A. That is correct. Q. At this time, what I mean, at the time the letter was going out, February of 1970, had Monsanto decided to withdraw Aroclor 1254 from the market? A. Not yet. Q. So to your knowledge no one at American Mineral Spirits knew -- let me rephrase that. To your knowledge Monsanto would not have informed American Mineral Spirits that it was withdrawing Aroclor 1254 at the time of this meeting; is that correct? MR. DiMURO: Objection to the form. MR. TURET: Objection. A. That knowledge was not known even to the Monsanto representative that visited American Mineral Spirits; therefore, it would not have been conveyed. Q. Did you ever have any dealings with any TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016793 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 221 representatives of Central Solvents? A. No. Q. Did you ever have any dealings with any distributors for Monsanto? A. No. Q. Of any product? A. That is true, no. Q. In your experience working for Monsanto in your experience working as a plant manager, would there be a reason for a distributor to modify a lot number? MR. DiMURO: Objection to the form. A. I don't know of any reason for doing so. Q. Have you ever heard of or knew of an example where a manufacturer changed a lot number of a product produced by Monsanto -- I'm sorry. Do you have any knowledge or have any recollection of a specific time when a distributor changed a lot number of a Monsanto product? A. I'm not aware of any such incident. Q. Do you have any firsthand knowledge of whether American Mineral Spirits supplied Armstrong Aroclor 1254 -- strike that. Do you have any firsthand knowledge of whether American Mineral Spirits supplied Aroclor 1254 to Armstrong? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016794 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 222 MR. DiMURO: Objection to the form. Gary, what do you mean by firsthand knowledge? Q. Do you know whether American Mineral Spirits supplied Aroclor 1254 to Armstrong? A. I know because I saw that reference in some documents here recently. Q. In preparation for this deposition today? A. That is correct. Q. Can I just take you back to Papageorge 21 which is that Armstrong document we marked earlier? A. I have it. Q. Would you look down to -- I would like to say line 55 and there is a lot number there, KL 635? A. I see it. Q. Do you know if that lot number would be indicative of an Anniston -- strike that -- a Krummrich lot number? MR. TURET: Objection. A. It's very likely a Krummrich lot number. Q. Is that what the K would stand for, Krummrich? A. Yes, sir. Q. And is L still consistent with the 1969 marking? A. Yes . Q. Sir, I appreciate your time. I don't think I have any further questions. Thank you? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016795 22 3 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. TURET: I have a few more. EXAMINATION QUESTIONS BY MR. TURET: Q. Mr. Papageorge, there is a document here that was marked at a previous deposition as Coaker 6. It's been referred to as the Plasticizer Blue Book. Is that a book that you've seen before today? A. I've never seen this. Q. Okay. To your knowledge, Mr. Papageorge, when you were employed by Monsanto back in about 1970 do you know how many plasticizer products Mo nsanto m anufactured? I have no idea. If I were to represent t o you tha t thi s book ma rked as Coaker 6 state s that th ere a re between 80 and 100 plasticizer P roduct s b eing ma nu factur ed by Monsanto as of th e tim e of this bo ok, does that number s eem wi thi n the range you mi ght have expected? MR. DiMURO: Obj ect to the form. Y ou ca n answer A. It doesn't surprise me, sir. I knew there were many. I never bothered to catalog them or TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016796 224 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 memorize them. Q. Let me show you briefly the contents page from the book. Do you recognize the products listed on that page? The Bates number page A 061501. A. Well, I recognize some of the trade name designations as an example, some of the Santicizers. I do not at this point in time recall what the number that follows Santicizer is describing. Q. Fair enough. I'm not going to ask you specific properties of any of them. You'll notice for example, the Aroclor plasticizers were listed as one entry here under miscellaneous, and there are multiple Aroclor plasticizers being manufactured at the same time; correct? A. That is correct. Q. And based on your experience at the Anniston plant and even before that would you agree that each plasticizer has its own chemical properties? MR. DiMURO: Object to the form. A. Yes. Q. And each has its own viscosity; correct? A. Yes. Q. And its own flame retardance? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016797 225 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Yes. Q. And appearance? A. Some appearances may be alike. They may all look like baby oil, for example, just looking at them you can't tell. Q. But not all plasticizers look alike; correct? A. That's true. Q. And plasticizers have their own acidity? A. Yes. Q. In your experience can a customer just swap one plasticizer for another? MR. DiMURO: Objection to form. A. It all depends on what his application requires. He has to conduct some laboratory tests to see if the end result is what he's searching for. Q. In fact, sometimes customers even use more than one plasticizer in combination; correct? A. Many times, yes. Q. So the fact that there were other plasticizer products manufactured doesn't necessarily mean that one can just switch from one plasticizer to another plasticizer; is that correct? MR. DiMURO: Objection to form. A. That is true. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016798 22 6 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. TURET: questions. I have no further MR. O'CONNOR: very briefly. Mr. Papageorge, I have EXAMINATION QUESTIONS BY MR. O'CONNOR: Q. If you remember, I made reference to a bulletin back in March of 1970 and you didn't recall your involvement with the bulletin? A. Yes. Q. I want to show you some transcripts from testimony taken from the Haley versus Monsanto case, May 17 of 1984. This was in the state of Michigan and dealt with a silo case? A. Yes. Q. And the attorney was asking you about your conversations with Dr. Hill from Ohio? A. Yes. Q. Do you recall that? A. Yes. Q. And he showed you a bulletin or brochure that you had made a change to. And let me bring your attention to Page 5-305 of this transcript at the bottom and the question and answer, would TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016799 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 227 you read that, please? A. Do you want me to read it out loud? Q. No, you don't have to read it out loud. Read it to yourself. Did that refresh your recollection at all, Mr. Papageorge? A. It did refresh my recollection with Dr. Hill and the incident that created this. I'm having difficulty recalling which brochure was in print at that time. Q. Well, my reading of your testimony is that in March of 1970 it was brought to your attention that there was PCBs occurring in, found in cows' milk and it dawned on you that PCBs could also end up in other food applications. A. That's right, sir. Q. Do you recall that you made a change to a bulletin or brochure that accompanied Aroclor 1254 which states specifically some specific applications where the use of PCBs should definitely be avoided are in paints and sealants for swimming pools, paints and waterproofing agents in silos and other buildings where food products for humans or animals are stored and as a component of any container or wrapping used in the packaging of food products? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016800 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 228 A . I remember that. Q. You recall that now? A . What fooled me is the reference to publishing a new bulletin. Q. Okay. So it was a supplement to an existing bulletin; correct? A . Yes . Q. And you did that in or around March, 1970? A . Yes . Q. With regard basically to Aroclor 1254? A . Correct. MR. O'CONNOR: I have nothing further. MR. TURET: Gary? MR. LIPSHUTZ: I'm done. MR. DiMURO: We're going to take a two-minute break. We may have some questions for Mr. Pa pageorge. (Brief recess.) MR. DiMURO: We have a couple of questions for Mr. Papageorge. MR. LIPSHUTZ: Do you mind if I go first? MR. DiMURO: Sure, go ahead. We thought you were finished. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016801 229 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EXAMINATION QUESTIONS BY MR. LIPSHUTZ: Q. Mr. Papageorge, can you hear me, sir? A. Yes. Q. Do you recall who the supervisor of the producing unit at the Anniston plant was in the unit that manufactured Aroclor 1254 during the time that you were the plant manager? A. Yes, Jack Molloy, M-O-L-L-O-Y. Q. Would you describe for me what Mr. Molloy's responsibilities would be or were? A. He was responsible for running that unit in terms of having adequately trained manpower, assurance that he had the right raw materials available, that his operation would produce the quantity of materials scheduled for the period of time, say so many pounds per month or per year, that he was responsible for the quality of the material, whether it met product specifications. That's generally the kind of thing that he was responsible for. Q. Is Mr. Molloy still alive to your knowledge? A. Yes. Q. Do you know where he lives? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016802 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 230 A. The last I heard he was down in Florida somewhere. Q. If American Mineral Spirits placed an order for Aroclor 1254 would it be shipped directly from the Anniston plant to the AMSCO facility? MR. DiMURO: Object to the form. A. If it came from the Anniston plant, it would be se.nt to the address that American Mineral Spirits would designate because we did have a system of ship to and bill to. Q. I understand. I guess a better question is was there an -- Anniston production did not ship to another Monsanto location -- let me rephrase the question. The Aroclor 1254 which was produced at the Monsanto plant in Anniston was shipped to customers from that plant; is that correct? A. Generally. Q. What would exceptions be? A. Sometimes it would be shipped to a field warehouse. Q. A Monsanto field warehouse? A. A Monsanto operated warehouse or contract operation and trans shipped from there to the ultimate customer; sometimes, not every time. Q. Can you think of the name of the Monsanto TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016803 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 231 employee who would have knowledge of shipments to American Mineral Spirits during this time frame that you were plant manager? A. His name escapes me. I can see him. I just can't recall his name right now. Q. If you do recall at some point I would appreciate if you would advise your counsel. A. Okay. If I'm lucky I'll remember it in the middle of the night some night. Q. Let me refer you briefly to Papageorge No. 11. A. I have it. Q. I would like you to take a look at the second page, the paragraph beginning marketing? A. I see it. Q. Okay. Second sentence, only a couple of companies have called claiming that they have not heard of our withdrawal. To your knowledge was Armstrong one of those companies? A. No. Q. Let me ask you, did you write that section? A. No. This was written by a marketing individual. Q. I think you might have answered that question. A. I believe I did. Q. Do you recall the name of the individual who wrote that section? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEP0 WATER PCB-SD0000016804 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 232 It's on e of tw o; it's either Mr. Schalk o r Mr. Walt Wa ychof f, his assist ant. Do you know th e source of their i nformati on for the sen tence / our distrib utors ar e well o n their way to zero inventory of the Aroc lors hav ing pretty well ma tched their purchas es from Monsant o with firm orders from th eir cust omers. Do you know th e source of that in formatio n? It woul d hav e to come from the fi eld. I do not know if it c am e from the specific sales represe ntat i ve or from th e distri ct offic e manager MR. LIPSHUTZ: Thank you, sir. I have no further questions. MR. DiMURO: I have a couple for you, Mr. Papageorge. EXAMINATION QUESTIONS BY MR. DiMURO: Q. Were you familiar with the Monsanto product Therminol FR-1? A. Yes. Q. Did Therminol FR-1 contain PCBs? A. Yes. MR. LIPSHUTZ: I'm sorry to TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016805 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 233 interrupt. I'm having trouble hearing. MR. DiMURO: Do you want us to read back the question and answer? MR. LIPSHUTZ: I think r was just having trouble hearing you. You can go ahead now. Q. Are you familiar with the Monsanto product Therminol FR-2? A. Yes. Q. Did that product contain PCBs? A. Yes. Q. Do you remember what Therminol FR-1 and Therminol FR-2 were used for? A. They were used as the fluid in systems that conveyed heat from one source to the point of use at another, heat transfer systems. Q. To your knowledge, did Armstrong purchase Therminol fluids from Monsanto? A. I saw references to Therminol shipments, purchases to Armstrong, yes. Q. PCB containing Therminol fluids? A. Yes. Q. Are you familiar with a Monsanto product called Pydraul F-9? A. Yes. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016806 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 234 Q. Is that a PCB containing product? A. Yes. Q. What was that used for? A. Pydraul F-9 is a fluid used in hydraulic systems to lubricate and be fire resistant. And such uses include common things such as air compressors. Q. Long time ago in this deposition Mr. Turet asked you some questions about PCBs for use for certain uses as plasticizers. Are you aware that PCBs were being used as a plasticizer for vinyl asbestos floor tile? A. Yes. Q. And back in the late 1960s early 1970s were you familiar with Armstrong Cork Company? A. I had heard of Armstrong, yes. Q. Do you know what type of products Armstrong Cork Company made in the late '60s and early '70s? A. I associate them with floor tile. Q. What kind of floor tile? A. Cork. Q. Do you know what those floor tiles were made of? A. Not in detail, no. Q. Do you know of any other products made by Armstrong in that time period late '60s early TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016807 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 235 '7 0s? A. I associate them also with the sheet floor covering instead of the tile. Sometimes I also associate them with carpeting, rugs. MR. DiMURO: I don't have any further questions. MR. TURET: No further questions. MR. O'CONNOR: No further questions. (Witness excused) TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016808 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 236 STATE OF _______________________________________________) COUNTY OF __________,_________________________) I, WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE, do hereby certify: That I have read the foregoing deposition; That I have made such changes in form and/or substance to the within deposition as might be necessary to render the same true and correct; That having made such changes thereon, I hereby subscribe my name to the deposition. I declare under penalty of perjury that the foregoing is true and correct. Executed this __________ day of ______________ . .1997 , NOTARY PUBLIC My Commission expires: nk 111297 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE _______________________________________________________________________________________________________________I TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016809 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 237 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER STATE OF MISSOURI ) ) SS COUNTY OF ST. LOUIS ) I, NANCY A. KUNCAITIS, a Registered Professional. Reporter and Notary Public in and for the State of Missouri, the officer before whom the foregoing deposition was taken, do hereby certify that the witness whose testimony appears in the foregoing deposition was duly sworn by me; that the testimony of said witness was taken by me to the best of my ability and thereafter reduced to typewriting under my direction; that I am neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the parties to the action in which this deposition was taken, and further that I am not a relative or employee of any attorney or counsel employed by the parties thereto, nor financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of the action. . My commission expires 11-22-97 TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 644-2191 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO WATER PCB-SD0000016810