Document RJEgBenKEzxgj7jw4338mGNqk

- /X? IN THE 3OTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT COURT FOR ST. CLAIR COUNTY, ALABAMA PELL CITY DIVISION THOMAS C. DYER, ET AL, Plaintiff, vs. MONSANTO COMPANY, ET AL, Defendant. ) ) ) ) ) NO. CV-93-250 ) ) ) ) Consolidated For Discovery With SHELTER COVE MANAGEMENT, INC., ET AL, Plaintiff, vs . ) ) ) ) ) ) NO. CV 94-50-PH MONSANTO COMPANY, ET AL, Defendant. ) ) ) DEPOSITION OF ROBERT G. KALEY, II Taken on behalf of the Plaintiff September 4, 1998 *** MINUSCRIPT & WORD INDEX *** REPORTER: Kevin J. Weichman, CSR-RPR No. 084-003189 DiPoNrr Taylor * Schroeder Reporting & Video 'Meeting Ail Your Litigation Needs 01 RT REPORTERS 7494 Ethel Avenue St. Louis, Mo 63117 314.644.2191 800.280.DEPO Fox 314.644.1334 QUALITY ASSURANCE HARTOLDMONO014699 1 IN THE 30TH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT COURT FOR 2 ST. CLAIR COUNTY. ALABAMA PELL CITY DIVISION 3 4 THOMAS C. DYER. ET AL. ) ) 5 Plaintiff. ) Q va. ) ) NO. CV-93-250 > 7 MONSANTO COMPANY. ET AL. ) ) 8 Defendant. ) 9 Consolidated For Discovery With 10 SHELTER COVE MANAGEMENT. ) INC.. ET AL. ) 11 ) Plaintiff. ) 12 ) vs. ) NO. CV 94-50-PH 13 ) MONSANTO COMPANY. ET AL. ) 14 ) Defendant. ) 15 18 DEPOSITION OF ROBERT G. KALEY. II 17 Taken on behalf of the Plaintiff September 4. 1998 1ft 19 *** MINUSCRIPT & WORD INDEX ** 20 REPORTER: Kevin J. Welchman. CSR-RPR No. 084-003189 21 22 23 24 25 1 INDEX OF EXAMINATION 2 QUESTIONS BY: PAGE 3 MR. LOWE ............................................................................ 5 4 5 INDEX OF EXHIBITS 6 Plaintiff's 1 ....................................................................... 127 Plaintiff's 2 ........................................................................ 182 7 Plaintiff s 3 ....................................................................... 189 Plaintiff's 4 ........................................................................ 200 6 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 IS 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SCRUNCHTM 1 2 3 1 IN THE 30TH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT COURT FOR 2 ST. CLAIR COUNTY. ALABAMA PELL CITY DIVISION 3 4 THOMAS C. DYER. ET AL. } ) 5 Plaintiff. ) ft vs. ) ) NO. CV-93-250 ) 7 MONSANTO COMPANY, ET AL. ) ) 8 Defendant. ) 9 Consolidated For Discovery With 10 SHELTER COVE MANAGEMENT. ) INC.. ET AL. ) 11 ) Plaintiff. ) 12 ) vs. ) NO. CV 94-50-PH 13 ) MONSANTO COMPANY. ET AL. ) 14 ) Defendant. ) 15 16 17 THE DEPOSITION OF R08ERT G. KALEY. II. 18 produced, sworn, and examined on behalf of the 19 Plaintiff, on Thursday, September 4, 1998. at 9:00 20 a.a., at the offices of Taylor & Schroedar Reporting & 21 Video. 7494 Ethel Avenue, St. Louis. Missouri, before 22 KEVIN J. WEICHMAN. a Certified Shorthand Reporter, 23 Registered Professional Reportar. and Notary Public 24 within and for the County of St. Louis, State of 25 Missouri. 1 APPEARANCES 2 3 ON BEHALF OF THE PLAINTIFF: 4 Petar A. Grammas. Esq. ' 5 E. Clayton Lowe. Jr.. Esq. 6 Burr 4 Forman, L.L.P. 7 3100 SouthTrust Tower 8 420 North 20lh Street 9 Birmingham. Alabama 35203 10 MAIN:(205) 251-3000 11 FAX: (205) 458-5100 12 13 ON BEHALF OF THE DEFENDANT: 14 Adam K. Peck. Esq. 15 Llghtfoot. Franklin 4 White. L.L.C. 16 300 Financial Center 17 505 20th Street North 18 Birmingham. Alabmaa 35203 19 MAIN: (205) 581-0700 20 FAX: (205) 581-0799 21 22 Michael E. Kelly 23 Smith. Helms. MulI las 4 Moore 24 300 N. Greene Street. Suite 1400 25 Greensboro. NC 27401 4 Pages 1-4 1 HARTOLDMONO014700 5 1 IT IS STIPULATED AND AGREED by and between 2 counsel for the Plaintiff and counsel for die Defendant 3 that the deposition of ROBERT G. KALEY, U may be taken 4 pursuant to and in accordance with the provisions of 5 the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure pertaining to such 6 depositions, by and on behalf of the Plaintiff, on 7 Thursday, September 4, 1998, at the offices of Taylor & 8 Schroeder Reporting & Video, 7494 Ethel Avenue, St 9 Louis, Missouri, before KEVIN J. WEICHMAN, a Certified 10 Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public within and for die 11 County of St. Louis, State of Missouri. 12 * * * * * * 13 14 ROBERT G. KALEY, II, 15 of lawful age, being produced, sworn, and examined on 16 the part of the Plaintiff, after answering "I do" to 17 the oath administered by the court reporter, deposes 18 and says: 19 DIRECT EXAMINATION 20 BY MR. LOWE: 21 Q. Would you state your full name for the record. 22 A. Robert George Kaley, II. 23 Q. I introduced myself earlier, but for the 24 record, my name is Clay Lowe. I'm one of the lawyers 25 representing the plaintiffs in a case styled 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 6 Dyer vs. Monsanto Company that's pending in the Circuit Court of St. Clair County, Alabama. Do you understand that your deposition here today is going to be used as evidence or as discovery in that case? A. Yes. Q. Have you prepared for this deposition in any way today? A. I read an affidavit I prepared for this case. Q. You prepared that affidavit? A. Yes. Q. You actually typed it? A. I didn't actually type it. Q. Was every word in there your words? A. In consultation with counsel, yes. I certainly stand by every word in there. Q. You're presently the director of environmental affairs for Solutia, Inc.; is that correct? A. That's correct. Q. And Solutia, Inc. was spun off from Monsanto in 1997; is that correct? A. That's correct. Q. What relationship does Solutia now have to Monsanto? A. None. In a business sense, we're renting . SCRUNCHTM 7 1 space in the old Monsanto headquarters. 2 Q. Are there any common directors or officers? 3 A. There may be common people on the board of 4 directors. I don't know. 5 Q. How about you, in any of your present duties 6 do you serve a dual capacity where you're representing 7 Monsanto and Solutia? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Who are you representing here today? 10 A. Solutia. 11 Q. How about when you attend public meetings in 12 front of citizens in St. Clair County, Alabama, who do 13 you tell them that you're there for? 14 A. The one time that I can recall doing that, I 15 told them I was there for Monsanto because that's who I 16 worked for at the time. 17 Q. So that was before '97? 18 A. My recollection it was the summer of 1997. 19 Q. You received a Bachelor of Science Degree in 20 chemistry from Purdue University in 1968; is that 21 correct? 22 A. That's correct. 23 Q. And a Ph.D. from die University of Illinois in 24 analytical chemistry in 1974; is that correct? 25 A. That's correct. 8 1 Q. You started working for Monsanto in 1973; is 2 that correct? 3 A. That's correct. 4 Q. Was that here in St. Louis? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Were you still in school at that point? 7 A. No, actually I'd completed my degree 8 requirements. That's when I started work. The degree 9 wasn't actually awarded until 1974. 10 Q. The Ph.D. in analytical history? 11 A. Analytical chemistry, yes. 12 Q. I'm sorry. 13 Since graduating from college, have you been 14 employed by anyone other than Monsanto and then 15 ultimately Solutia? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Your entire working career, then, has been 18 with Monsanto and Solutia? 19 A. Since college graduation. Graduate school 20 graduation, yes. 21 Q. Did Monsanto contribute any of the funding for 22 your education? 23 A. No. 24 Q. You're familiar with Monsanto's manufacture of 25 polychlorinated biphenyls, which we're going to refer Pages 5 - 8 2 HARTOLDMONO014701 9 1 to today as PCBs, at the Anniston plant; is that 2 correct? 3 . A. Yes. 4 Q. You're also familiar with the characteristics 5 of PCBs? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And in your position with Monsanto and 8 Solutia, you've been charged with reviewing literature 9 and reports regarding PCBs; is that correct? 10 A. That's correct. 11 Q. Including information regarding the toxicity 12 of PCBs and die environmental remediations involving 13 PCBs; is that right? 14 A. That's correct. 15 Q. As part of your duties with Monsanto and now 16 with Solutia, have you been involved in giving a 17 deposition in any other lawsuits regarding PCBs? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Where were those and when were those? 20 A. One was in Texas in the late 1980s. I don't 21 know exactly. I don't remember. There may have been a 22 couple others. That's the only real deposition in a 23 PCB case that I recall now. 24 Q. So you gave a deposition in a PCB-related case 25 on behalf of Monsanto somewhere in Texas in late 1980s; 10 1 is that right? 2 A. Yeah. It wasn't Houston. 3 Q. Is that where die case was pending? 4 A. No, the case was pending in Beaumont. 5 Q. Was this case regarding Monsanto's discharge 6 of PCBs into the environment? 7 A. No. 8 Q. What were the facts in that case, as best you 9 remember? 10 A. A wide variety of workers who, in the course 11 of their employment, had been exposed to PCBs. 12 Q. Were you deposed by die plaintiffs in that 13 case? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. What was die outcome of that case, do you 16 know? 17 A. The initial phase was a decision for Monsanto. 18 I think the remaining plaintiffs eventually setded. I 19 don't know for sure, but I think that's the outcome. 20 Q. Were the workers alleging that they were 21 exposed to PCBs while working in a Monsanto plant? 22 A. No. 23 Q. What was the nature? 24 A. Well, there were health claims for exposure in 25 their employers, which was not Monsanto. SCRUNCHTM 11 1 Q. Okay. They were not employed by Monsanto? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Do you remember who they were employed by? 4 A. Some of them were by Westinghouse Electric 5 Corporation and the others were a wide variety of 6 different employers. 7 Q. As part of Monsanto's defense in that case. 8 did you allege that Westinghouse should be responsible. 9 rather than Monsanto, for exposing the workers to die 10 chemicals? 11 A. Did I? I didn't personally. 12 Q. No, I said Monsanto. 13 A. I don't recall what the defenses in that case 14 were. 15 Q. You weren't involved in preparing and 16 assisting in preparing the case? 17 A. No, I didn't prepare any legal defenses. I 18 was technical support. 19 Q. What kind of technical support did you 20 provide? 21 A. Basically information about PCBs and the 22 literature. 23 Q. Did you submit an affidavit in that case 24 similar to the one you've done in this case? 25 A. I don't recall, but I don't believe so. 12 1 Q. Have you been involved in any other lawsuits . 2 filed against Monsanto regarding PCBs other than this 3 Texas case? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. What were those? 6 A. I gave testimony in a case in Indianapolis, 7 Indiana, again in the late 1980s regarding, I guess, 8 Westinghouse discharge, discharges from their 9 manufacturing plant in Bloomington, Indiana. 10 Q. Did you testify at trial in that case? 11 A. Yes, I did. 12 Q. Did you testify on behalf of Monsanto? 13 A. Yes, I did. 14 Q. Monsanto called you as a witness? 1-5 A. Yes, I believe that's correct. 16 Q. And what was the nature of your testimony? 17 A. Just basically description of the properties 18 of PCBs and the state of scientific knowledge about 19 PCBs. 20 Q. Did you give any testimony regarding warnings 21 from Monsanto to its customers regarding properties of 22 PCBs? 23 A. Not that I recall. 24 Q. Did you submit an affidavit in this 25 Indianapolis case? Pages 9 -12 3 HARTOLDMONO014702 13 1 A. Not that I recall. 2 Q. Were you deposed in that case? 3 A. I don't really remember. It's certainly 4 possible. Yes, I was. As a matter of feet, I was 5 deposed in that case. 6 Q. What law firm represented you and Monsanto in 7 that case, do you recall? 8 A. The attorney's name was Mike Freewald. 9 Q. Where is he located? 10 A. He is in Indianapolis. I should know die name 11 of die firm. I don't as I sit here right now. 12 Q. Let me back up to die Texas case. Which law 13 firm was representing you and Monsanto? 14 A. Woodard, Hall & Primm. 15 Q. Woodard, Hall & Primm? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Is that in Houston? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. All right, that's two cases. Let's talk about 20 the outcome in the Indianapolis case. Was Westinghouse 21 found liable? 22 A. It was a case against Monsanto, and Monsanto 23 was not found liable. 24 Q. Westinghouse sued Monsanto? 25 A. No, the City of Bloomington sued Monsanto. 14 1 Q. Maybe I wrote down the wrong thing. I thought 2 you said it was regarding a Westinghouse discharge in 3 Bloomington. 4 A. It was. Go figure. Yes, it was a 5 Westinghouse plant and Monsanto was sued by the City of 6 Bloomington. 7 Q. On the theory that you made it - you should 8 be responsible for it? You don't remember? 9 A. I'm sure it was something like that. I don't 10 remember what their theory was. 11 Q. What's the next case that you were involved 12 in? 13 A. I was involved in an ADR, an alternative 14 dispute resolution proceeding, in San Francisco. 15 Q. What were the nature of die claims in that 16 case? 17 A. It was claims arising out of a fire in a 18 building in San Francisco. 19 Q. And during this fire, I assume PCBs were 20 released? 21 A. Yes. 22 . Q. Was the lawsuit against Monsanto or one of 23 your customers? 24 A. Well, both. 25 Q. Who was the customer? SCRUNCHTM 15 1 A. Westinghouse. 2 Q. Did Westinghouse bring you, Monsanto, into 3 that lawsuit? 4 A. I don't know. 5 Q. But Monsanto was a defendant? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. What was the outcome of that ADR proceeding? 8 A. As far as I know, moneys were exchanged. I 9 think there was a resolution based on the outcome of 10 that hearing. I don't recall exactly what it was. 11 Q. Do you have any sort of indemnity agreements 12 between Westinghouse and Monsanto or Solutia? 13 A. There is some sort of an agreement that exists 14 on materials purchased after, like, 1972 or something. 15 Q. Is that something you're familiar with? 16 A. I know it exists. 17 Q. Well, what's the nature of the deal, the 18 agreement? 19 A. As far as my recollection of the agreement is. 20 is that at the time we restricted our sales to 21 electrical equipment manufacturers, Monsanto asked diem 22 to accept responsibility for any liability after that. 23 the day of the signing of that agreement. 24 Q. Has Monsanto attempted to enforce that 25 indemnification agreement against Westinghouse, to your 16 1 knowledge? 2 A. I don't really remember. . 3 Q. After the San Francisco case, have you been 4 involved in any other litigation for or on behalf of 5 Monsanto? 6 A. Other than these Alabama cases, there's 7 nothing that comes to mind right now. There may have 8 been. 9 Q. What other Alabama -- have you given any 10 depositions in any other Alabama cases? 11 A. No, I haven't. 12 Q. What is your -- what are your present duties 13 with Solutia? 14 A. A variety of issues mainly. One of the 15 primary ones is to be a source person for information 16 at Solutia about a variety of chemicals, including 17 PCBs; stay up to speed on the literature and things on 18 those issues and other developing issues that affect 19 the company. 20 Q. Which company? 21 A. Solutia right now. 22 Q. Did you do the same thing when you were with 23 Monsanto? 24 A. I did. 25 Q. The source person for information, who is it Pages 13 -16 4 HARTOLDMONO014703 17 1 that comes to you as the source? 2 A. A variety of people. 3 Q. Who are they? 4 A. Internal. Remediation managers within 5 Monsanto, upper management. I deal with all die phone 6 calls that come into Monsanto regarding PCBs; so, a 7 variety of outside persons. 8 Q. All phone calls for PCBs. Where do you 9 receive those calls? 10 A. In my office. 11 Q. Yeah, where is that? 12 A. Here in St. Louis? 13 Q. How long have you been located here in St. 14 Louis? 15 A. Since 1973. 16 Q. So you never lived in Anniston, Alabama, did 17 you? 18 A. No, I didn't. 19 Q. Have you spent much time there? 20 A. I've been there occasionally over the past 21 several years. It wasn't much time there. 22 Q. What's the longest period of time you ever 23 spent at the plant in Anniston, Alabama? 24 A. A continuous period of time? Two or three 25 days. Probably more like two days. 18 1 Q. When was that? 2 A. Several times over the past several years. 3 Q. Several times over the past several years for 4 an average of two days apiece; is that right? 5 A. That seems fair, yes. 6 Q. So a total of maybe six days? 7 A. Oh, heavens no. Several times per year over 8 the past several years. 9 Q. Okay. So less than ten times? 10 A. Probably more than ten, maybe 20-ish. I don't 11 really know. I don't count them. 12 Q. Well, as the source person for information for 13 Monsanto and then eventually Solutia, what was your 14 reasons for going to die Monsanto plant in Anniston, 15 Alabama, on these occasions? 16 A. There have been several: meetings regarding 17 the activities at the site, I've been down for meetings 18 with state regulators. 19 Q. But you're the information guy for PCBs; is 20 that right? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. What's the source of your knowledge and 23 information about PCBs? Where do you go to when you 24 need information? 25 A. Scientific literature. SCRUNCHTM . 19 1 Q. For example, are there any specific 2 periodicals that you rely on regularly? 3 A. Well, I try to be aware of what is written 4 about PCBs in a wide variety of periodicals. I don't 5 know there's any one specific any more than another. 6 Q. Obviously, then, you must subscribe to some of 7 these where they're mailed to your office. 8 A. That's correct. 9 Q. Which ones do you subscribe to? 10 A. I subscribe to Environmental Science and 11 Technology. I subscribe to Environmental Health 12 Perspectives. I subscribe to Science Magazine. I'm a 13 member of the Society for Risk Analysis, so I get their 14 journal which is called Risk Analysis. That seldom has 15 anything to do with PCBs, but I do receive it in my 16 office. I think that's all I subscribe to. 17 Q. Are there any PCB-specific periodicals or 18 newsletters that you receive? 19 A. No. 20 Q. How about from the EPA or any other government 21 agency? 22 A. Well, I try to be aware of what's being 23 published with regard to PCBs in the Federal Register; 24 and Environmental Health Perspectives, although it 25 isn't a specific PCB, is published -- well, I don't 20 1 know whether it's published by the government. It's 2 out of NIHS in North Carolina, so it's a government -3 in a sense, a government publication. But it's not PCB 4 specific. 5 Q. Are there any particular computer sites that 6 you regularly rely on to get information regarding 7 PCBs? 8 A. I don't believe so. I mean, occasionally I'll . 9 have a TOXLINE done or a MEDLINE search. They're 10 search services. I think that they're government 11 search services. 12 Q. Kind of like West Law, for doctors? 13 A. Exactly. 14 Q. Have you published anything yourself regarding 15 PCBs? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. What were those? 18 A. There was an article in the early 1970s 19 published in the "Bulletin of Environmental 20 Contamination and Toxicology." 21 Q. What was the nature of that article other than 22 PCBs? What was the focus? 23 A. It was basically a study of PCB levels in a 24 rat feeding study. 25 Q. You were employed by Monsanto at that time, Pages 17 - 20 5 HARTOLDMONO014704 21 1 weren't you? 2 A. That's correct. 3 Q. Was that a study that was financed by 4 Monsanto? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Did any other Monsanto employees work on that 7 study with you? 8 A. I'm sure there were. 9 Q. Was that study performed in a Monsanto 10 laboratory or by an outside company? 11 A. I believe it was done by an outside 12 laboratory. 13 Q. Do you remember who it was? 14 A. As I sit here today, I don't. I think it 15 was -- I think it was a consulting laboratory in St. 16 Louis. I don't remember die name of it right off. 17 Q. Did you actually perform the test, dissect the 18 rats, or did you just look at the data and make the 19 conclusions? 20 A. I performed die analytical chemistry 21 associated with the termination of the tissue residue 22 levels. 23 Q. Have you ever testified as an expert witness 24 in any case you've been involved in? 25 A. I think I was qualified as an expert witness 22 1 in that ADR hearing in San Francisco; and I don't 2 remember the Bloomington case, whether I was qualified 3 as an expert. That may have very well been expert 4 testimony also. 5 Q. What specific issues were you qualified in 6 those cases to testify as an expert? 7 A. Primarily analytical chemistry and the 8 chemistry of PCBs, properties of PCBs. 9 Q. Have you been informed that you're going to 10 testify as an expert witness in this case on a similar 11 issue? 12 A. I have not. 13 Q. When an issue regarding PCB exposure to the 14 environment comes up and it involves Solutia or 15 Monsanto, are you die person that Solutia or Monsanto 16 sends to explain to the public the nature of the PCBs 17 and report to the local newspapers? 18 A. I have been a resource in those kinds of 19 situations. I don't know that I was sent there to do 20 that, but I've certainly done things like that. 21 Q. I mean, that's one of your jobs, isn't it? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. It's the job? 24 A. Pardon? 25 Q. That is the primary focus of your job, isn't SCRUNCHTM 23 1 it, to disseminate information to the public? 2 A. No, it's certainly not the primary focus. 3 Q. What is the primary focus? 4 A. The primary focus of my job is to serve as an 5 internal resource for Monsanto Company on those issues 6 and to respond from inquiries outside, but I'm seldom 7 sent out to do those kinds of things. If there's a 8 request for information that's relayed to me. I'll deal 9 with it, yes. 10 Q. All right. Well, is there anyone else in the 11 company that such information is relayed to to issue * 12 response on behalf of the company to the public? 13 A. With response to PCBs? 14 Q. Yes. 15 A. 'Probably not, that I wouldn't be involved in 16 somehow. 17 Q. Of course tire reason that I'm asking these 18 questions is I know you've made statements to local 19 newspapers in and around St. Clair County. 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. You've been quoted there, and I know you went 22 to at least one public meeting there where you spoke. 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. So is it safe to assume, then, that if someone 25 goes out and meets with the public on these issues. 24 . 1 it's probably going to be you? 2 A. Well, it may be me or it may be me with 3 somebody else. It depends on what the particular 4 issues are. 5 Q. Okay. Who are the other people, then, that 6 would normally or have in the past gone with you to 7 address issues at public forums regarding PCB? 8 A. Allen Faust, for example. He's typically been 9 involved in every situation in Anniston. 10 Q. Tell me first who Allen Faust is, what he 11 does. We'll start with that. 12 A. Allen Faust is remediation manager for the 13 Anniston, Alabama, site. 14 Q. Is he based in Anniston? 15 A. Yes, he is. ` 16 Q. How long has he been there? 17 A. Two to three years, I guess, two years. 18 Q. And his primary job responsibility, then, is 19 for remediation of the Anniston site regarding PCBs? 20 A. Well, regarding whatever is involved in that 21 remediation. PCBs are clearly a focus, yes, but not 22 necessarily exclusive of -- . 23 Q. Now, what's Mr. Faust's educational training? 24 A. I believe he's a geologist or a hydrologist. 25 I think a geologist. Pages 2X - 24 6 HARTOLDMONO014705 25 1 Q. Do you have any other remediation managers 2 anywhere in the country who are responsible for 3 remediating PCBs, whether employed by Monsanto or 4 Solutia? 5 A. I'm sure there are other remediation managers 6 that have dealt with PCB issues at the plant. I don't 7 know of one specifically. 8 Q. Is there any other location in die country 9 where you have a -- "you" being Monsanto or Solutia -- 10 have a remediation manager on-site full-time? 11 A. Certainly, yes. 12 Q. Where are those? 13 A. There is one -- has been one in Texas. 14 Q. What's the name and location in Texas? 15 A. It was associated with the Chocolate Bayou 16 plant, if I recall. 17 Q. Chocolate Bayou? 18 A. Right. I think (he site is actually called 19 Brio, B-R-I-O, Brio site. 20 Q. So it's just - is Chocolate Bayou, then, just 21 a nickname? 22 A. No, that's the name of the plant. 23 Q. I didn't know if after the PCBs were dumped 24 there they might have started calling it that. 25 A. No, this is not a PCB site. The question was 26 1 not addressed to PCB sites. It's not a PCB site. 2 Q. I'm sorry, I guess I got a little fuzzy then. 3 Let's talk about PCB remediation. Are there 4 any other sites in the country where you have a 5 remediation person such as Mr. Faust on-site full-time 6 where the remediation includes PCBs? 7 A. Not that I'm aware of. 8 Q. All right. Let's talk about your involvement 9 in remediation efforts on behalf of Monsanto or Solutia 10 regarding PCBs -- 11 A. Okay. 12 Q. -- in your full tenure with both companies. 13 ' What other remediation projects have you been 14 involved in regarding PCBs besides the Monsanto plant 15 in Anniston? - 16 A. I've been consulted on a couple other small 17 projects, but I really had only minimal input into any 18 of those projects. They were more spill cleanups than 19 they were what I would call remediation projects. 20 Q. Is it fair to say, then, that the Anniston 21 plant is your first remediation project to work on, 22 then, regarding PCBs? 23 A. I'm not sure -1 don't know what "work on" 24 means. I'm a participant in the discussions down 25 there, bringing PCB expertise to the table, but I'm not scrunchTM 27 1 involved in designing the remediation or the remedial 2 actions or designing the investigations particularly. 3 Q. Okay. We've defined your job. Part of your 4 job is to go in and talk about PCBs and answer people's 5 questions internally in the company and to the public. 6 right? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Now, how many projects have you been involved 9 in where you performed your duties with Monsanto or 10 Solutia and you were there because remediation efforts 11 regarding PCBs were taking place? 12 A. This is probably the first one under those 13 conditions. 14 Q. Do you have -- I guess for lack of a better 15 term, a form file for news releases on PCBs that your 16 company will distribute if there's an issue of PCB 17 releases? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Have you ever prepared a news release to be 20 issued to newspapers or other publications? 21 A. I think I was involved in the preparation of 22 what they call a "backgrounder" several years ago, but 23 it's fairly outdated. 24 Q. Have you reviewed any of the prior news 25 releases that Monsanto's done over the past 20 to 30 28 1 years regarding PCBs? 2 A. Well, yeah. I just talked about that 3 background. 4 Q. What's been the nature of your involvement in 5 the Anniston, Alabama, Monsanto plant remediation 6 efforts? 7 A. Well, I talked about it. I've been a PCB 8 resource to the site remediation people. I have sat in 9 on meetings of die consultants who are responsible for 10 both the on-site and the off-site remediation efforts. 11 I have attended meetings with state regulatory persons 12 and accompanying Anniston site people. When necessary 13 or appropriate, I have spoken to either the public or 14 the press people. 15 Q. If a press person asks for a statement from 16 Monsanto regarding the Anniston plant, are they 17 referred to you? 18 A. They are if it's with regard to questions 19 about PCBs and the issues that I deal with. If it's a 20 question about the remediation efforts, no. 21 Q. Who are the remediation questions referred to? 22 A. Mr. Faust. 23 Q. When is the first time that you had any 24 involvement whatsoever with the Monsanto plant in 25 Anniston? When was the first time that you got Pages 25 28 7 HARTOLDMONO014706 29 1 involved there? 2 A. Probably 1984, 1985 time frame. I'm not 3 counting analysis of samples from Anniston early in my 4 career, you know, when I was actually in die laboratory 5 as an analytical chemist. I very well could have done 6 some analyses of samples from Anniston, but I don't 7 have any specific recollection of that. 8 Q. So PCB samples were being sent -- or, were 9 they soil samples that were suspected to contain PCBs 10 that were sent to die lab in St. Louis to be tested? 11 A. Some of that was done, but by far most of that 12 was done before I joined Monsanto in 1973. The plant 13 was closed in 1971. I didn't join Monsanto until 1973. 14 So I don't know - as I said, I don't have any specific 15 recollections that those kinds of analyses were done. 16 I just don't want to exclude the possibility that they 17 could have been done. 18 Q. You're not insinuating that Monsanto quit 19 taking soil samples when they closed the plant in 1973, 20 are you? 21 A. I don't know specifically. 22 MR. PECK: '71. 23 THE WITNESS: I don't know specifically what 24 samples were or weren't taken. 25 BY MR. LOWE: 30 1 Q. I thought we started this line of questioning 2 out by you saying that in 1984 to 1985 you were in the 3 lab4 A. No, no, no, I was not in the iab from 1984 to 5 1985. I was in the lab in 1973. There is a potential. 6 although I have no specific recollection, that 1 could 7 have analyzed one or more samples that originated in 8 the Anniston plant. By 1984/1985 I was no longer in 9 the laboratory. I was in a position very similar to 10 what I'm doing now. 11 Q. Which regulatory - state regulatory persons 12 have you spoken to regarding the Anniston plant? 13 A. I guess primarily Stephen Cobb, C-O-B-B. I 14 think Mr. Gerald Hardy has been present at some of 15 those meetings and a Jim Grassiano, G-R-A-S-S-I-A-N-O. 16 Those are the ones that I recall. 17 Q. Which agency is Stephen Cobb with? 18 A. Those people are all with ADEM, Alabama 19 Department of Environmental Management. 20 Q. You haven't had any involvement with die 21 Alabama Department -- 22 A. Yes. Public Health, I'm sorry, yes, I was 23 recalling now. I have talked to Dr. Brian Hughes from 24 ADPH. 25 Q. How often have you spoken with Mr. Cobb at SCRUNCHTM 31 1 ADEM? 2 A. Two to three times a year over maybe the past 3 two or three years. 4 Q. How about Gerald Hardy? 5 A. Somewhat less than that. 6 Q. Mr. Grassiano? 7 A. He's a new hire, so it's only been a couple 8 times over the past six months or something. 9 Q. What's your reasons with talking to ADEM? 10 A. Primarily to discuss either measures. 11 regulatory measures and compliance measures that we are 12 in the process of undertaking or will be proposing to 13 undertake. 14 Q. Regarding PCBs? 15 A. Regarding the Anniston site, yes. 16 Q. Regarding PCBs at the Anniston site? 17 A. Primarily. 18 Q. Are there some other issues? 19 A. There were other chemicals made there that 20 have been brought up occasionally. 21 Q. What are those? 22 A. Well, they still make biphenyl there. They 23 used to make parathion there. 24 Q. When was the first time you had any contact 25 with the Alabama Department of Environmental 32 1 Management? . 2 A. Ever? . 3 Q. Yes. 4 A. Probably in 1984/1985 timeframe. 5 Q. Why were you called to the plant in 1984? 6 A. There was a situation involving PCBs in Snow 7 Creek. 8 Q. Can you relate to us the details about PCBs 9 being found in Snow Creek in 1984? 10 A. My recollection is that PCBs had been found, I 11 guess, in either Snow Creek or Cboccolocco Creek and 12 led to the discovery that a small chemical company in 13 South Anniston or Oxford was discharging PCBs into Snow 14 Creek. 15 Q. Tull Chemical, T-U-L-L? 16 A. That's correct. And as -- the state attorney 17 general got involved in that and that investigation 18 eventually involved the Monsanto plant. 19 Q. Why did it involve Monsanto if Tull was the 20 one that they accused of dumping? 21 A. Well, Monsanto was a manufacturer of PCBs that 22 was known to the people and it was on the same Snow 23 Creek, so I guess it was just a normal course of the 24 investigation. 25 Q. Were there any other companies at this point Pages 29 - 32 8 HARTOLDMONO014707 33 1 in time manufacturing -- let me back up. 2 Between, say, 1939 and 1971, were there any 3 other companies besides Monsanto in die United States 4 manufacturing PCBs? 5 A. Not to any significant amount. There are 6 stories out there of this, that, and die other, but 7 Monsanto was by far the major manufacturer in the 8 United States. 9 Q. Well, actually Monsanto used to tout itself as 10 being the only manufacturer, didn't they? 11 A. I don't know. 12 Q. I mean, you've seen documents that have said 13 that, haven't you? 14 A. I don't have any specific recollection of 15 that. It may very well have been said. As I said, the 16 other ones are stories that may be apocryphal. I don't 17 know whether there were or not. 18 Q. As part of your job, have you gone back to 19 review files and news releases, press releases, memos, 20 et cetera, regarding statements that Monsanto officials 21 have made over the past few decades regarding PCBs? 22 A. I mean. I've seen documents. That's not 23 specifically part of my job is to go back and review 24 that kind of material necessarily. 25 Q. Well, you want to be consistent in what your 34 1 company says, don't you? 2 A. That's true. 3 Q. So it would be a good practice to go back and 4 see what other people have said about it? 5 A. As I said, I've done some of that. I haven't 6 made a study of everything that was ever said by 7 everybody about PCBs. 8 Q. I just want to make sure that we're clear that 9 Monsanto was the only manufacturer of PCBs in the 10 United States. 11 A. I don't know that. 12 Q. You don't? 13 A. In fact, there are people manufacturing PCBs 14 in the United States right now, to be truthful. 15 Q. Any of diem in Anniston, Alabama? 16 A. No, and they're not making very much, they're 17 making analytical standards. But clearly Monsanto is 18 not the, quote, "only manufacturer' of PCBs in the 19 United States. It's by far the major manufacturer of 20 PCBs for commercial production and sales in the United 21 States. I'll agree with that. 22 Q. Was Monsanto the only manufacturer of PCBs in 23 Anniston, Alabama? 24 A. As fin as I know. 25 Q. Are they the only one that is in any close SCRUNCHTM 35 1 proximity to Snow Creek? 2 A. As far as I know. 3 Q. How many thousands of pounds or tons or 4 whatever measurement you can use would you estimate 5 were manufactured at the Monsanto plant? 6 A. I have no basis to make an estimate like that. 7 I don't know. 8 Q. You have no idea, you never heard? 9 A. No. 10 Q. What was your involvement in 1984, then, with 11 the attorney general's office at Snow Creek, regarding 12 Snow Creek? 13 A. Primarily the same as it has been here, the 14 source of information about PCBs and the chemistry and 15 the properties of PCBs. 16 Q. I'm still struggling with why Monsanto took 17 let me ask you: Did Monsanto take any action to 18 remediate or clean up Snow Creek in 1984 or immediately 19 thereafter in response to the attorney general's 20 inquiries? 21 A. There was a remediation of some of the ditches 22 leading from the Monsanto facility to Snow Creek, and I 23 think the remediation was finally done in about 1989. 24 Q. Did you have any involvement in determining 25 the extent of the remediation effort by Monsanto? 36 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. What specifically did you do to do that? 3 A. I think I drafted the plan to do that 4 remediation, actually. - 5 Q. You drafted the remediation plan? 6 A. Well, yeah, I guess, at that point. Yes, I 7 would say that's true. 8 Q. What input did you get to help you prepare 9 that plan? 10 A. I had the input of people at the plant. 11 Q. Like who? 12 A. Shoot, I don't know. I guess Jerry Brown 13 primarily. 14 Q. Did you remediate Snow Creek from the closest 15 proximity to the Anniston plant to where Tull Chemical 16 is located or did you go back past Tull Chemical? 17 A. We in fact did not remediate Snow Creek. We 18 remediated the ditches leading from our facility to 19 Snow Creek. 20 Q. So that's obviously before you get to Tull 21 Chemical, right? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. It drains -- it drained out of your plant. 24 through the ditches into Snow Creek, and then somewhere 25 along the way, Tull Chemical's down Snow Creek Pages 33 - 36 9 HARTOLDMONO014708 37 1 somewhere; is that right? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. So you remediated from your plant, from die 4 ditches that flow to Snow Creek in 1984; is that right? 5 A. Well, the actual remediation I think was 6 carried out in 1989. 7 Q. But you started investigating it in 1984? 8 A. Right. 9 Q. Because the attorney general of Alabama 10 contacted Monsanto about it; is that right? 11 A. That's my understanding. 12 Q. What alerted the Alabama attorney general's 13 office to die presence of PCBs in the ditches near the 14 Monsanto Annistonplant? 15 A. I don't know specifically. As I said, my 16 understanding is that it was an extension of the 17 investigation involving Tull Chemical. 18 Q. Well, as the point man for information 19 regarding PCBs, did you dispute with the attorney 20 general's office that PCBs were indeed flowing at that 21 point, or had up to that point in time, from the 22 Monsanto plant into these ditches? 23 MR. PECK: Object to the form of die question. 24 THE WITNESS: I don't think that was the 25 question that we were dealing with. 38 1 BY MR. LOWE: 2 Q. Well, you didn't deny liability for placing or 3 being a source of the PCBs, did you? 4 A. There were PCBs detected in the sediments in 5 those drainage ditches and we removed some of those 6 sediments containing those PCBs. Whether we accepted 7 or denied liability to anything, I have no idea. 8 Q. So why did you do it? 9 A. There were PCBs in the ditches and we felt 10 that removal of those sediments containing those PCBs 11 was an appropriate action. 12 Q. What were the levels of PCBs that you found in 13 the ditches? 14 A. I don't recall. 15 Q. Were they more than one part per million? 16 A. Yes. I mean, in fact I know that some of them 17 were more than 50 parts per million, because that 18 determined our eventual disposal of those materials. 19 But other than that, I don't know.. 20 Q. Right. You did the remediation plan, so 21 obviously you must have had some criteria for -22 A. I'm sure at the time I knew what the levels 23 were. I just don't know as I sit here today. But 24 clearly some of them were greater than 50 parts per 25 million. SCRUNCHTM 39 1 Q. How did you remediate the area? Did you 2 dredge, cap it, or what? 3 A. I think basically they removed them with -- I 4 don't know exactly, probably something, a backhoe kind 5 of thing, and the sediments were removed then to our 6 landfill facility where they were analyzed and then 7 determined that they were greater than 50 parts per 8 million and they were shipped to the TSCA landfill. 9 Q. So why were they shipped to Amel (PHONETIC)? 10 A. Because they contained greater than 50 pats 11 per million which is the regulatory cutoff for disposal 12 requirements in a TSCA landfill. 13 Q. Just so anybody reading this or hearing this 14 later understands, you're telling us that anything, any 15 soil that has greater than 50 parts per million of PCBs 16 has to be disposed of, under federal regulations, in a 17 hazardous waste landfill? 18 A. No, that was not correct. 19 Q. Can you restate, then, why this particular 20 soil in the ditches outside Anniston in 1989 had to be 21 carried to Amel? 22 A. Because once the material is removed from its 23 existing site, if it's a pre-1978 or -1979 material, if 24 it's removed physically ffom the ground, then it 25 becomes a TSCA waste. At that point, then, foe TSCA 40 1 disposal -- that's Toxic Substances Control Act -- 2 disposal regulations become effected. 3 Q. Did you make any effort to ascertain the 4 source of the PCBs in these ditches? 5 A. Not particularly, no. 6 Q. Was that because h was so readily obvious 7 where the sources were? 8 A. I think we took the responsibility in the 9 ditches that close to our plant that they certainly 10 might have come ffom our plant. 11 Q. They might have come ffom there? 12 A. That's what I said. 13 Q. Was there any other source between the 14 Monsanto plant and these ditches? 15 A. Not that I specifically know of. 16 Q. How did foe PCBs, to your knowledge, get ffom 17 ibe Monsanto Anniston plant to these ditches? 18 A. I think the ditches flowed ffom our plant site 19 and presumably were attached to sediment particles that 20 carried them to those ditches. 21 Q. Was there a discharge pipe ffom the Anniston 22 plant that exited, under the plant fence line, so to 23 speak, that flowed to these ditches? 24 A. There was a discharge point that discharged, 25 yes. Pages 37 - 40 10 HARTOLDMONO014709 41 1 Q. Did you ever go back and try to ascertain the 2 volume in pounds of PCBs discharged in any particular 3 date in history for the Monsanto plant? 4 A. No. 5 Q. From your experience, would it be reasonable 6 to assume that these PCBs that flowed from the Anniston 7 plant into these ditches would eventually make their 8 way into other waterways? 9 A. The potential is certainly there for that. 10 Q. Do you think that occurred here? 11 A. To some extent or another, it probably did. I 12 don't know. 13 Q. You don't know? I mean, you're the point man 14 for answering these questions, aren't you, for the 15 company? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. You don't have a good-faith belief that PCBs 18 that are now being found in Choccolocco Creek and Logan 19 Martin Lake, some or all of them did not originate from 20 the Monsanto plant in Anniston, Alabama? 21 A. Some or all of them may have originated from 22 the Anniston plant, yes. 23 Q. You're unwilling to say here today that some 24 of them did originate from that plant? 25 A. I think that's a reasonable assumption, but. 42 1 you know, I don't think that we know necessarily and I 2 don't know how far down the stream that that might have 3 occurred at this point as we sit here today. 4 Q. All right. Just so we nail this down, you're 5 willing to say that it's a reasonable assumption that 6 some of the PCBs presently found in Choccolocco Creek 7 and Lake Logan Martin originated from the Monsanto 8 plant? 9 A. To some extent, and my confidence in that 10 statement is less as you move further down die stream. 11 Q. So you'd dispute any findings of PCBs in Lake 12 Logan Martin as being - as having originated from die 13 Monsanto plant; is that correct? 14 A. I think what is correct is that I don't know 15 that there's any way of knowing for sure whether any of 16 those PCBs came from the Monsanto plant. 17 Q. Well, obviously unless you put some sort of 18 collar on each PCB or some radio detection device, you 19 could never be absolutely sure where it came from, 20 could you? 21 A. That's correct. 22 Q. But then Monsanto was the only manufacturer of 23 PCBs in the country, weren't they? I think we've 24 already established that. 25 A. Yes. SCRUNCHTM 43 1 Q. So even if Tull Chemical dumped a few pounds 2 in there, Monsanto was the original source, weren't 3 they? 4 MR. PECK: Object to the form of die question. 5 THE WITNESS: Certainly we probably supplied 6 those at one point or another, yes. 7 BY MR. LOWE: 8 Q. It's fair to say you knew PCBs were escaping 9 from the Monsanto plant into the tributaries next to 10 the plant and that you reasonably assumed that they 11 were finding their way into Choccolocco Creek and then 12 into Logan Martin? 13 A. At some point in time, that's correct, yes. 14 MR. PECK: I object to the form of the 15 question. 16 BY MR. LOWE: 17 Q. In your affidavit you said you're familiar 18 with sampling to determine whether PCBs are present in 19 sediments, soils, and storm water in the vicinity of 20 the Anniston plant or in sediments in Snow Creek and in 21 fish in Choccolocco Creek and Lake Logan Martin. I 22 mean, you know good and well that they're present in 23 those sediments in all those areas, don't you? 24 A. The PCBs are present in them? 25 Q. Yes. 44 . 1 A. To the extent that they've been reported and 2 detected, yes. 3 Q. Well, Monsanto's done its own tests, they did 4 some 30 years ago, didn't they, on fish in the area? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And they found PCBs in them, didn't they? 7 A. In some of them, yes. 8 Q. And they considered themselves, Monsanto, a 9 source of those PCBs, didn't they? 10 A. I think they certainly considered themself a 11 possible source. 12 Q. A possible source. 13 Have you reviewed the sediment sample studies 14 for Snow Creek? Are you familiar with any sediment 15 sample studies? 16 A. The one we did, yes. 17 Q. And the results from that test that you, 18 Monsanto or Solutia, did, was there's PCBs present in 19 that creek; was that correct 20 A. In some of the samples, yes. 21 Q. In some of the samples. And also for 22 Choccolocco Creek and Lake Logan Martin; isn't that 23 correct. 24 MR. PECK: Sediment samples, is that what 25 you're asking about? Pages 41 - 44 11 HARTOLDMON0014710 45 1 BY MR. LOWE: 2 Q. Sediment samples. 3 A. To this point. I'm not aware of sediment 4 samples that we've done. 5 Q. You did some fish samples, though; is that 6 right? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And you found PCBs in some of those fish; is 9 that right? 10 A. That's correct, but we had the fish sample 11 study done, I didn't do it at Solutia. We contracted 12 that study. 13 Q. Right. What year was that when you first got 14 some fish results? 15 A. In this time frame or previously? 16 Q. No, ever. 17 A. I know samples were taken in, I guess, the 18 early 1970s. 19 Q. Which, in the early 1970s, showed elevated 20 levels of PCBs in certain fish that were caught? 21 A. It showed PCBs in those fish. 22 Q. Some of them were over two parts per million, 23 weren't they? 24 MR. PECK: Object to the form of the question. 25 I'm not clear what you guys are talking about. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 ' 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 46 MR. LOWE: Well, he was clear, anyway. MR. PECK: I mean, you're talking about Choccolocco Creek, Lake Logan Martin, Snow Creek? BY MR. LOWE: Q. Let's talk about Choccolocco Creek. You did some fish samples -- or you, Monsanto, in the 1970s there, didn't they? A. I understand they contracted with a consultant to do some fish samples. Q. Right. And they found that some of the fish caught there had PCBs over two parts per million? A. I don't know the exact numbers, but I believe some of them were over two. Q. All right. Instead of struggling through your affidavit, let's do something easy for a while. Let's answer a series of, like, true/false questions for me. It'll be easy. We'll streamline this. True or false: PCBs occur naturally in the environment? A. I think that there are some studies that indicate that some low levels of PCBs can be formed naturally, yes. Q. What studies were those? A. I think that there were studies -- the one that I recall is an author named Gribben, SCRUNCHTM 47 1 G-R-I-B-B-E-N. 2 Q. How does he say that they can be formed 3 naturally? 4 A. I don't recall the specifics. 5 Q. Well, are PCBs normally considered a manmade 6 substance? 7 A. Normally, yes. 8 Q. Were they created to be a persistent 9 substance? 10 A. No. 11 Q. No? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Even as a dielectric fluid? 14 A. They were created to be a thermally and 15 electrically stable substance. They were created to 16 meet a group of properties and they were created to be 17 thermally and electrically stable and that's why they 18 found use in the electrical industry. 19 Q. Do you have a copy of this Gribben report 20 somewhere in your office? 21 A. I may have. I don't know. 22 Q. Who is this Gribben fellow that says they can 23 create themselves? 24 A. I professor. I believe he's from Great 25 Britain. I don't think he says they create themselves. 48 1 Q. Well, how does it occur naturally? 2 A. I don't recall the details of what he said. 3 You asked me a question and I answered it. I don't 4 know the specifics. He has in there a mechanism for 5 that natural occurrence. 6 Q. Did he do that in a lab or did he test - how 7 did he make that conclusion? 8 A. I don't recall. 9 Q. Did you read his report -10 A. I read it several years ago. 11 Q. --or just the conclusion? 12 A. No, I read it years ago. 13 Q. True or false: PCBs have a low solubility in 14 water? 15 A. They're generally considered to have low 16 solubility in the water depending on what your 17 definition of that is. They're generally soluble in 18 water at the part-per-billion level or lower than that. 19 Q. Will they float, normally, or sink? 20 A. Normally they would sink. They're denser than 21 water. That has nothing to do with their solubility, 22 but they're denser than water. 23 Q. Okay. So normally if they're introduced into 24 a water system such as a lake or stream, they're going 25 to go to the bottom, so to speak? Pages 45 - 48 12 HARTOLDMON0014711 1 2 3. 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 49 A. If a drop of PCB is introduced into a ecosystem, it will go to the bottom, that's correct. Q. So normally, then, the highest concentration of PCBs are going to be in the sediment rather than suspended in die water; is that fair to say? A. Well, that generally is fair to say, but that really has nothing to do with their density, it has or their solubility -- well, it has to do with their solubility; it has to do with their adsorption characteristics to the sediment. It's not really a in that case it's not a density question, it's a solubility/adsorptivity question. Q. They sink to die bottom, they don't stay suspended in the water, normally, to any great extent, is that right, unless you stir it up? A. That's correct, but that doesn't necessarily explain why they adhere to the sediments. There are chemicals which would in fact float in water, but when they have the opportunity to adhere to the sediments. would go to the bottom of the sediments. Q. I don't care. I didn't ask you that. I'm just asking about Do PCBs normally sink to the bottom or do they stay suspended in the water? A. I answered diat question yes, several questions ago. 50 1 Q. Good. True or false: PCBs have a high 2 liquid -- or lipid, excuse me, lipid solubility? 3 A. They're certainly more lipid soluble than 4 they're water soluble, that's correct. 5 Q. First I should have asked, what is lipid 6 solubility? 7 A. That's basically solubility in fat, like 8 fat-like chemicals, materials 9 Q. Like fat in human beings? 10 A. For example, yes, or oils. 11 Q. Or fish? 12 A. Or fish, yes. 13 Q. What does "bioaccumulate" mean? 14 A. "Bioaccumulate" is one of the terms that's 15 used to describe the characteristics of chemicals to 16 accumulate in various biota in die food chain. 17 Q. True or false: PCBs bioaccumulate in animal 18 and human tissue? 19 A. If they're in the food chain, there is that 20 potential, yes. 21 Q. That potential. I mean, if you eat them, 22 they're not going to buy bioaccumulate, some of them? 23 A. It depends whether you're eating enough 24 that -- it's the relative enough of intake versus 25 outgo. So, if you're eating small amounts, the SCRUNCHTM 51 1 natural -- I lost the word, but the natural processes 2 to excrete the PCB, if they're taking care of that 3 intake, then they will not bioaccumulate, no. 4 Q. PCB - it's not your testimony that PCBs will 5 not bioaccumulate in humans or fish? 6 A. The potential is there, certainly, yes. 7 Q. In feet, there have been many studies done 8 that conclude that they do bioaccumulate in humans and 9 in fish. 10 A. Certainly there have been studies done on fish 11 which demonstrate that under the conditions of those 12 tests, PCBs do bioaccumulate, yes. I'm not sure that 13 there have been studies done on humans which 14 demonstrate that. 15 Q. There've been studies done on other animals 16 though, haven't there 17 A. I think that's fair, yes. 18 Q. -- that show that PCBs bioaccumulate; is that 19 right? 20 A. I'm not sure that studies were done to show 21 that. Certainly because it's -- 22 Q. I'm asking you for a conclusion. 23 A. It's a food-chain kind of definition, and most 24 of the studies, in a rat study, for example, you're 25 feeding the rat the PCBs and they - assuming the rats 52 . 1 are getting more than their bodies are able to excrete 2 within the time frame of the study, those PCB levels in 3 their fat tissues will increase. That's not really a 4 definition of 'bioaccumulation" because it's net a 5 food-chain kind of tiling. I mean, it's in their food. 6 so -- I may be dancing a fine line here, but the 7 study 8 Q. You're on a roll here. 9 A. That's fine. The studies really aren't 10 studies of bioaccumulation in rats, although the PCBs 11 may accumulate. So if that satisfies your question. 12 that's fine. I'll agree with that. 13 Q. All right. So if PCBs bioaccumulate, is it 14 fair to say, then, that the bioaccumulating PCBs are 15 certainly going to be higher than those in the external 16 environment, that is, let's say, if sediment has . 1 17 parts per million and the fish have over two parts per 18 million, wouldn't that be an example of 19 bioaccumulation? 20 A. If you can demonstrate - well, yeah. If you 21 can demonstrate that that sediment is the source of 22 those PCBs, yes. 23 Q. Well, have tests shown that PCB exposures to 24 rabbits, birds, quail, wild fowl in general display 25 dose-related adverse health effects? Pages 49 - 52 13 HARTOLDMON0014712 53 1 A. I would agree that there are studies in those 2 various species that have shown those related effects. 3 yes. 4 Q. Such as liver damage? 5 A. I'm sure in some of those situations, yes. 6 Q. Diminished egg production? 7 A. I believe that's correct. 8 Q. Increased embryonic mortality rates? 9 A. I don't remember which species those were in 10 which you read, but I think there are indications that 11 in some species that's occurred, yes, in some dose. 12 Q. We talked earlier about finding PCBs in 13 sediment samples in the Lake Logan Martin, Choccolocco 14 Creek, and Snow Creek. Did you yourself or Monsanto do 15 any testing above Snow Creek where the plant ditches 16 discharge into Snow Creek? 17 A. Yeah, I believe both the State and Monsanto 18 has tested -- has done some testing above that point. 19 Q. What time frame was that? 20 A. Early 1990s, I think. 21 Q. Who did those? 22 A. We did some as part of the test we talked 23 about earlier, and I believe the State has also done 24 some. 25 Q. Why did you test above the discharge points? 54 1 A. To determine what the relative levels were 2 above the discharge point and below the discharge 3 point. 4 Q. Were the reiative ieveis higher beiow than 5 above? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. How much higher? 8 A. I don't recall the exact numbers. 9 Q. Well, generally you must have some idea. 10 A. I think above they were -- if detected at all. 11 they were relatively low levels, parts per million; 12 where below, I don't know what the levels were. There 13 were 10s and 15s, some maybe some higher. 14 Q. True or false: The marketplace standard for 15 PCBs in food as established by foe United Slates Food 16 and Drug Administration is two parts per million? 17 A. False. 18 Q. That's false? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. What is it, then? 21 A. It depends on the foodstuff. 22 Q. What about for fish? 23 A. For fish there's a tolerance level of two 24 parts per million. 25 Q. Do you have some analogy you usually use to SCRUNCHTM 55 1 explain to people when you talk to public groups about 2 parts per million? 3 A. There are out there -- I'm very bad at 4 memorizing those, so I typically don't use them. I 5 have a sheet of them, but I don't remember generally 6 what they are. 7 Q. Well, you don't try to indicate or give seme 8 analogy of how small a particle 9 A. There may have been times when I have, but 10 there's no magic analogy that I use. I know they're 11 out there and I may have used one or another at a 12 particular time, but it is a small number. 13 Q. True or false: The runoff of PCBs from 14 Monsanto's Anniston property continued into Snow Creek 15 even after Monsanto ceased production of PCBs at foe 16 Anniston plant? 17 A. I think, based on our sampling in the 1990s, 18 there was some indication that trace levels were in 19 storm water that was leaving that plant. 20 Q. What do you call "trace" levels? 21 A. Few parts per billion. 22 Q. Are you testing water or sediment? 23 A. Those tests were of storm water. The PCBs 24 that were detected were probably associated with 25 sediment in that storm water, or almost certainly were. 55 1 Q. Did you make any effort to determine 2 whether -- well, let me back up. . 3 How many landfills exist on the Monsanto 4 property in Anniston? 5 A. There are two major areas that are considered 6 landfill areas. 7 Q. In terms of volume or area, can you give us an 8 indication of how large those landfills are? 9 A. I really can't. It's not something in terms I 10 think of. I don't really know. 11 Q. Well, in your role as the point man for the 12 company, did you obtain or amass any information 13 regarding what had been placed in those landfills over 14 the year? 15 A. .I'm generally aware of that. I don't have any 16 specific knowledge. 17 Q. Generally what's contained in those landfills? 18 A. A variety of wastes from the various 19 manufacturing processes at the Anniston plant. 20 Q. Does that necessarily include PCBs? 21 A. In some of the landfill areas there are PCB 22 wastes from the manufacturing process, yes. 23 Q. Which areas are those? 24 A. My understanding is that there's some - were 25 some in now what's being called foe West End Landfill, Pages 53-56 14 HARTOLDMON0014713 57 1 the area west of our plant, and there's certainly a 2 cell or an area in the landfill south of the plant that 3 had PCBs placed in it. 4 Q. Beginning in 1983/'84 time frame when you were 5 first contacted by the attorney general's office, have 6 you been confronted with any concerns regarding die 7 escape of PCBs from these landfills? 8 A. Well, until our investigations determined that 9 there were PCBs in storm water, I don't know that there 10 was -- I don't know what you mean by confronted by 11 concerns. We did those - we did those investigations, 12 found the PCBs in storm water, and have undertaken 13 programs to manage and control. 14 Q. Was this storm water that was washing over die 15 tops of the landfills; is that what we're talking 16 about? 17 A. That would be the safe assumption. I don't 18 think we know where it particularly came from 19 specifically, but it was material that had water that 20 had been in contact with die landfill and then was 21 leaving the landfill, yes. 22 Q. Were these landfills lined in the bottom? 23 A. Some of the landfills are lined in the bottom. 24 I'm not totally sure about the landfill that 25 contains -- I think it was. Yeah, I think the old PCB 58 1 landfill is certainly closed RCRA under regulations. 2 I'm not sure whether it's lined or not. I don't know 3 the answer to that for sure. 4 Q. Are you familiar with Subtitle D compliance 5 for landfills? 6 A. Not really. I have heard of it, that's about 7 all I can say about it. 8 Q. That's really sort of a recent animal, so to 9 speak, for regulations. 10 A. Yes, that's my understanding. 11 Q. Do you have any reason to believe that any 12 type of lining was used by Monsanto Company when they 13 were initially dumping PCBs into the Anniston plant 14 landfill in the '70s? 15 A. I really don't know. 16 MR. PECK: I object to the form of the 17 question. 18 THE WITNESS: I don't know. 19 BY MR. LOWE: 20 Q. Have you made any investigation to determine 21 whether or not those PCBs are leaching into the 22 groundwater near the,Anniston plant? 23 A. Yes, groundwater has been analyzed for PCBs. 24 Q. Have you found any presence of PCBs? 25 A. Not in the water itself, no. SCRUNCHTM 59 1 Q. Are we talking about groundwater near the 2 landfill sites or have you done any type of dye testing 3 or anything of that nature to trace the water into 4 nearby tributaries? 5 A. I'm not sure how many questions were in there. 6 Q. That was compound. 7 A. Certainly there are groundwater monitoring 8 wells associated with the landfills. So to foe extent 9 that PCB testing has been done, I mean, I think that 10 answers one of the questions. I don't even know if dye 11 testing is appropriate for groundwater kinds of 12 investigations. I'm not a hydrologist. I'm certainly 13 not aware of any, but I don't know. 14 Q. When were these groundwater monitors placed in 15 service? 16 A. I don't know specifically. I think in foe 17 1980s. Other than that, I don't know specifically. 18 Q. At what point did Monsanto start capping foe 19 landfills to comply with federal regulations? That 20 wasn't until 1993 or so, was it? 21 MR. PECK: Object to the form of the question. 22 THE WITNESS: I'm not the right person to be 23 asking. It's my understanding that some of foe cells 24 were what I call RCRA, R-C-R-A, RCRA capped prior to 25 1990s, but I don't know the specifics on foe various 60 . 1 cells within those landfills and I don't know what 2 regulations were in compliance. So I shouldn't even be 3 answering foe question. 4 BY MR. LOWE: 5 Q. Is that something for Mr. Faust? 6 A. He would certainly be more knowledgeable than 7 I. 8 Q. What does ATSDR stand for? 9 A. Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease 10 Registry. 11 Q. True or false, then: PCBs are listed as 12 probable human carcinogens by the EPA, ATSDR, and the 13 International Agency for Research on Cancer? 14 A. They're listed as probably human carcinogens 15 by the EPA and the international agency, IARC. ATSDR 16 just basically reports those previous listings. They 17 don't have an independent listing system. 18 Q. True or false: PCBs are distributed into foe 19 human body fat stores and are retained for long 20 periods? 21 A. That is generally true for some higher 22 chlorinated PCBs. 23 Q. What's a higher chlorinated PCB? 24 A. A PCB with four or five or more chlorines on 25 foe biphenyl ring. Pages 57 - 60 15 HARTOLDMON0014714 61 1 Q. Ia terms of Aroclor, is the name brand for the 2 PCBs manufactured by Monsanto, which ones would foil 3 into that category? 4 A. The Aroclor mixtures were mixtures of wide 5 ranges of various chlorinated materials, so there are 6 lower and higher chlorinated materials in all of -- 7 Q. Sure, but which one has four or five molecules 8 or whatever you said, which brand? 9 A. Some components of almost all of die brands, 10 as you call it, of all the various product designations 11 have some chlorine - have some biphenyl molecules of 12 four or more chlorines on it. Almost all of diem have 13 some that have less than that. They were very complex 14 mixtures. 15 Q. So back to my question, then, that would mean 16 that all of these PCBs had the characteristic of being 17 distributed into the body fat stores and retained for 18 long periods? 19 A. Some components of some or all of the Aroclor 20 mixtures contained four or more chlorines on the 21 biphenyl ring, which would make them tend to be more 22 long lasting in human -- we're talking about human fot, 23 was that your question? 24 Q. Yes. 25 A. But even that is not a firm rule. There are 62 1 certainly some highly chlorinated materials that are, 2 for whatever reason, rapidly excreted from the human 3 system. 4 Q. Let's taik about the ones produced by Monsanto 5 and that were commonly released into the environment by 6 Monsanto. 7 A. Well, I'm not -1 don't think they were 8 commonly released into the environment by Monsanto. 9 Q. How about every day? They were released every 10 day from that plant during the production period 11 weren't they? 12 A. I don't know that. 13 Q. Come on, you've read that stuff. 14 A. I don't know that. 15 Q. You've seen the documents. 16 A. I don't know. You use the term "every day," I 17 don't know that they were released every day from that 18 plant. Certainly PCBs during the period of manufacture 19 were released from the Anniston plant. 20 Q. All right. Well, we'll split hairs, then. At 21 least every week there were pounds at least? 22 A. I don't know that. 23 Q. Well, you've looked at the documents. You 24 were employed there. I mean, you're a relatively young 25 man. You weren't there every day of the history of the SCRUNCHTM 63 1 plant, but in your job where you said you've reviewed 2 literature and reports regarding PCBs including 3 information regarding die toxicity of PCBs and 4 environmental remediations involving PCBs and you're 5 familiar with Monsanto's manufacture of PCBs at its 6 Anniston plant and the characteristics of PCBs, bow'd 7 you get all that information? You never looked at any 8 Monsanto documents? 9 A. I didn't say I didn't look at any Monsanto 10 documents. I said I can't say that PCBs were released, 11 quote, "every day" or, quote, "every week." There are 12 certainly documents which indicate that PCBs were 13 released in discharges at die Monsanto Anniston plant 14 Q. Do you think it was proper to release PCBs 15 into the environment? 16 A. I think at the time that most of this 17 manufacture was going on, there was very little 18 understanding of what was, quote, "proper and 19 improper." I think Monsanto was doing the best job 20 they could to manufacture a useful product at that 21 time. 22 Q. What time are we talking about? 23 A. Until - basically the time the manufacture 24 until the information began to be available in the late 25 1960s that PCBs were persistent in the environment. 64 1 Q. Well, they closed die plant in 1971, didn't 2 they? 3 A. That's correct. 4 Q. Ana ibey discharged PCBs info the environment 5 knowingly well beyond 1971, didn't they? 6 A. I don't know that I can agree with that 7 statement. I'm not even sure what that means. 8 Q. You haven't looked at any of those documents 9 where it says: We sewered X pounds today of PCBs? 10 A. After 1971, I'm sure that's not true. We 11 weren't -- the manufacturing facility was shut down. 12 There was no way we would be sewering PCB materials 13 after 1971. 14 Q. Well, up to 1971 they did that, didn't they? 15 A. There's indication that some PCBs were 16 discharged into the sewers prior to 1971. 17 Q. How did you learn that? 18 A. We learned it by following up on the 19 information that was beginning to be available in the 20 late 1960s, studying ~ looking at our plant, trying to 21 determine, you know, in fact were there were 22 discharges, what do we do to reduce those discharges. 23 We worked, as I'm sure you know, very bard to reduce 24 those discharges. Eventually made a decision that that 25 plant should be closed. Pages 61 - 64 16 HARTOLDMON0014715 65 1 MR. PECK: Can we take a quick break? 2 MR. LOWE: Yeah. That's a good idea. 3 (A SHORT BREAK WAS HELD.) 4 BY MR. LOWE: 5 Q. Are you familiar with any studies being done 6 by Monsanto in the 1960s regarding die effects of PCBs 7 on the environment in humans? 8 A. Done by Monsanto in the 1960s? By late 1960s 9 there may have been some studies going on looking at 10 biodegradation and that kind of stuff. I don't know 11 the exact timing of that. 12 Q. Well, actually Monsanto was taking upon itself 13 to try to determine what health effects or 14 environmental hazards PCBs were presenting, weren't 15 they? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. But they weren't necessarily reporting those 18 to the public, were they? 19 A. Well, they were reporting them to regulators. 20 They were reporting some of them to scientific 21 meetings. I mean, they were generally publicly 22 available. 23 Q. At what point did Monsanto start warning its 24 customers that they shouldn't allow the release of PCBs 25 into streams or any other water source? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 66 A. I don't know the exact date of that, sometime in the early 1970s, I believe, but I don't know the exact year. Q. Well, that was to their customers, right? A. Yes. Q. What was the reason for alerting their customers to that? A. Because by the time that warning was put on them, we had done enough and understood enough to realize that PCBs should not be discharged into the environment and wanted their customers to have that same understanding. Q. What about the public in general or either employees who came in contact? For example, at Westinghouse, did Monsanto make any effort to warn those people as to the possible adverse effects of PCBs? A. Certainly. We had the warnings on the materials that we shipped to their employers. Q. So there was a label, then, on each barrel of PCBs that went to these plants? A. That's my understanding. Q. Was part of that warning to insulate or protect Monsanto from legal action rather than helping the environment? SCRUNCHTM ' 67 1 A. I don't know if it would have had that effect 2 or not. The reason the labels were put on were to 3 alert people who were using those pure PCBs, the 4 precautions necessary to use them safety and regarding 5 die environmental level, to alert the customers that 6 those materials should not be carelessly released into 7 the environment. 8 Q. When these lawsuits we started out talking 9 about this morning that you've been involved with 10 Monsanto, wasn't that one of die defenses you raised 11 that. Well, we warned Westinghouse, so we shouldn't be 12 liable? 13 A. That may have been, I don't know. 14 Q. You don't know? 15 A. I'm not involved in those kinds of strategic 16 decision of what the defenses are or are not. 17 Q. What is your role again, then, in these cases? 18 A. I provide technical support. 19 Q. Like what? Tell me specifically. What's your 20 script? What's your script? 21 A. I don't have a script. I respond to specific 22 inquiries about technical issues relating to PCBs or 23 whatever, or not PCBs if it's not a PCB issue. 24 Q. What's the most commonly asked question of you 25 about PCBs? 68 1 A. I have no idea. 2 Q. This is your job, man. You know this. 3 A. I don't keep track. 4 Q. Sure you do. - 5 A. By who? 6 Q. Let's say by the public. 7 A. By the public? What do we know about PCBs, 8 what do we know about die toxicity of PCBs, what do we 9 know about the human health effects of PCBs. 10 Q. What do you tell them? 11 A. I tell them what my understanding of the 12 literature is. 13 Q. What do you tell them the human health effects 14 are? 15 A. Generally we tell diem that in highly exposed 16 persons, you can see skin -- various skin conditions. 17 possibly including chloracne, and you may see elevated 18 transient liver enzyme levels. 19 Q. Well, there hasn't been a whole lot of human 20 testing done for PCBs, have there? 21 A. Well, as far as I know, there's never been any 22 humans testing done. There's been lots of people, 23 humans, exposed to PCBs in their jobs, and those people 24 have been looked at extensively for health effects. 25 Q. Have you ever told anyone at a public meeting Pages 65 - 68 17 HARTOLDMON0014716 69 1 that there aren't any adverse health effects for being 2 exposed to any level of PCBs? 3 A. I may have told people that there are - it's 4 based on our understanding of highly exposed people. 5 It's extremely unlikely that environmentally exposed 6 people are at risk of long-term chronic health effects. 7 I may have said that. That's certainly my 8 understanding of what die literature is, so it's 9 possible I said that. 10 Q. What about environmental effects as to fish 11 and animals, what's your standard response to those 12 questions? 13 A. My standard response is that in areas where 14 there are high levels of PCBs detected in the 15 environment, that there are effects observable on them. 16 Q. What do you consider a high level? 17 A. It really depends on a particular situation 18 and it depends on the levels in the wildlife that are 19 there. There's no magic number that makes something 20 high or low. 21 Q. You don't think two parts per million in fish 22 isn't some sort of a trigger level? 23 A. Well, it's a trigger level for a fish 24 consumption advisory. It's a level that the regulatory 25 agencies have decided that fish aren't to be 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 70 1 commercially sold at that level. I don't think it's 1 2 hurting the fish, no. 2 3 Q. How many millions of pounds of PCBs do you 3 4 think Monsanto produced over the many of years? 4 5 A. I've seen a number, I don't even know what it 5 6 is. It's not a number I have on the tip of my tongue. 6 7 Q. Yeah, guesstimate. Do you have a guess? '7 8 A. I wouldn't even want to guess. It's 8 9 available. 9 10 Q. From where? 10 11 A. I think some EPA documents have it. I don't 11 12 know that there isn't a Monsanto document that doesn't 12 13 have some estimate of how many pounds were produced. I 13 14 just don't know. 14 15 Q. In your job as the information man for PCB, do , 15 16 you normally provide information to government agencies 16 17 other than Alabama that we talked about? 17 18 A. If asked, and sometimes - 18 19 Q. Well, who's asked? Has the EPA ever asked 19 20 you? 20 21 A. Sure. 21 22 Q. What information did they require from you? 22 23 A. I don't even know specifically, but I've 23 24 certainly talked to EPA people. 24 25 Q. Have you provided them any written 25 SCRUNCHTM 71 information? A. Just a general MSDS sheet, material safety data sheet. Q. Is that something you prepare? A. I've been involved in the preparation of those. Q. Tell me again what that was? A. Material safety data sheet. Q. What kind of information is going to be on this MSD sheet? A. There's a variety of information from chemical properties to naming nomenclature, to hygiene measures. toxicological information, a variety of different kinds of information; Department of Transportation shipping information. Q. When's the last time you had to provide one of these sheets to the EPA regarding PCBs? A. To the U.S. EPA? I don't recall. Not recently. Q. How about other agency, state or federal? A. I don't know. I don't keep track of what I do and don't, but I'm sure I provided them for regulatory agencies in the past year or so a couple times. Q. Do you have a written outline of what you normally present at public meetings? 72 A. I wouldn't say I normally present to public meetings. I have done so occasionally, and no, I don't have a written outline. Q. m yOUl at Pc*l witjr & / wot agO, y'oil had some slides with you, didn't you? A. Yes. Q. Where did those come from? A. I prepared them. Q. What about the text of the comments that you made before anyone asked you questions? A. It was just basically driven by what's on those slides. Q. Does Monsanto dispute that it is responsible for the fish advisories that have been issued by the Alabama Department of Public Health for Choccolocco Creek and Lake Logan Martin? MR. PECK: Object to the form of the question. THE WITNESS: I think that we are involved in a process to understand what the source of those fish advisories are. BY MR. LOWE: Q. Well, the source of die fish advisories are the presence of PCBs. A. To understand the source of the PCBs in those fish and to understand what has led to those levels. Pages 69 - 72 18 HARTOLDMON0014717 73 1 Q. You don't dispute -- after all we talked about 2 this morning, you don't dispute that Monsanto is a 3 source of die PCBs that have found their way into 4 Choccolocco Creek and Lake Logan Martin? 5 A. I think Monsanto may be one of the sources of 6 PCBs to Choccolocco Creek. It may be one of die 7 sources to Lake Logan Martin. I don't think we know 8 that. 9 Q. It is a source, it's not maybe, is it? 10 A. That's your words, not mine. I answered the 11 question. 12 Q. You're not willing to admit here under oath 13 that the Anniston plant for Monsanto is a source of 14 PCBs that are presently existing in Choccolocco Creek 15 in Lake Logan Martin? 16 A. I certainly am on Choccolocco Creek. The Lake 17 Logan Martin situation is much more complex. It's a 18 possibility. I don't know. 19 Q. Just so die record's clear now, then you admit 20 that the Monsanto plant in Anniston, Alabama, is a 21 source of PCBs for Choccolocco Creek? 22 A. Is one of the potential sources for die PCBs 23 in Choccolocco Creek, yes. 24 Q. It is a source. There isn't any potential. 25 because it exists. The potential's there. It is a 74 1 fact. It is there and you're not going to dispute 2 that, are you? 3 A. I answered the question. Monsanto is one of 4 the potential sources of PCBs to Choccolocco Creek. 5 Q. All right. Then we defined, then, under EPA 6 standards for potentially responsible parties; is that 7 what you're going under? 8 A. No. I'm going under the common meaning of the 9 words I'm using. 10 Q. It's a mere potential, then, rather than a 11 fact that there are PCBs in the lake? Let's back up. 12 There are PCBs in Choccolocco Creek, aren't 13 there? 14 A. There are PCBs in the sediments in Choccolocco 15. Creek, yes. 16 Q. Do you dispute that there are PCBs in die 17 sediment and the fish in Lake Logan Martin? 18 A. I'm not aware of sediment analyses from Lake 19 Logan Martin. There are PCBs in the fish in Lake Logan 20 Martin. 21 Q. Well, would you be surprised to learn that 22 . there are elevated levels, that is, above one part per 23 million, in soil samples taken from Lake Logan Martin? 24 A. Would I be surprised to learn that? I don't 25 know the answer. In some ways, yes, I might be a SCRUNCHTM 75 1 litde surprised, depending on how the samples were 2 taken or where they were taken. I don't know the 3 answer to that. 4 Q. Have you gone out and, like, physically walked 5 out onto die banks of Choccolocco Creek? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. How many times have you done that? 8 A. A couple maybe, three. 9 Q. What did you observe about die characteristics 10 of that creek? 11 A. It's a very large creek, what I would call a 12 river. It seems to carry a lot of water. Generally 13 muddy. 14 Q. Do you think it's a fast-flowing creek? 15 A. I don't know. Generally, moderately flowing. 16 I don't know that it's fast, but it moves right along. 17 Q. Did it appear to you in many areas it was 18 shallow with a rock bottom where there wasn't a large 19 presence of sediment where die water flowed? 20 A. I don't know that I made that observation. 21 Q. Why would you be surprised that PCBs have been 22 found in the sediment in Logan Martin? 23 A. Well, as I said, I don't know that I'd be 24 surprised that they would be found. I think, depending 25 on the location and die sampling protocol and where the 76 . 1 samples were taken, I might be surprised that they 2 would be above one part per million. . 3 Q. What would that equate to in fish, in your 4 experience? 5 A. We don't know the answer to that to Lake Logan 6 Martin. It depends on many characteristics of the 7 sediment, it depends on the characteristics of the fish 8 and the system involved. That's part of the study that 9 we're proposing to do. 10 Q. Really? How many other studies have you done 11 similar to that? 12 A. I haven't, but the consultants that we're 13 engaging to help us in this process have done studies 14 like that. 15 Q. Really, where? Who have you engaged? 16 A. Dr. Mark Brown. 17 Q. All right. I've got a copy of his affidavit 18 with his resume attached to it. Have you looks at 19 that? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Did it state all of his experience in 22 remediation that he related to you? 23 A. I'm not sure -- I've seen his affidavit. I'm 24 not sure I've seen his resume. 25 Q. Were you the person responsible for hiring Pages 73 - 76 19 HARTOLDMON0014718 77 1 Mark Brown or is that someone else? 2 A. Someone else. 3 Q. Who else? 4 A. Mr. Faust. 5 Q. Who do you report to? 6 A. A gentleman by die name of Mike Foresman, 7 F-O-R-E-S-M-A-N. 8 Q. Is he located here in St. Louis? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. What's his tide? 11 A. Director of remedial projects or something. 12 Something like that. 13 Q. Have you ever worked with Robert Cheever? 14 A. Notdirecdy. 15 Q. Do you know him? 16 A. I've been introduced to him. I know him a 17 litde. 18 Q. Have you talked with him about the Anniston 19 plant since he was the senior environmental specialist 20 at the plant for a number of years? 21 A. I don't recall whether he was involved in the 22 1984 discussions or not. Certainly not recendy. 23 Q. He was there from 1983 to 1990 as senior 24 environmental specialist. You didn't talk to him? 25 A. As I said, if he was in that role at that time 78 1 in the 1980s, I'm sure I did. I don't have a specific 2 recollection of that. 3 Q. You think it would have been good practice if 4 you went to the plant that you would talk to the senior 5 environmental specialist? 6 A. If he was involved in those discussions. I 7 don't recall if he was or not. He may very well have 8 been. 9 Q. Do you know for a fact, then, that he was the 10 environmental specialist there? 11 A. I'm taking your word for that. 12 Q. So you don't even know that. 13 A. No. I know that he spent some time in 14 Anniston. If that's the tide that he had, that's 15 fine. I don't know specifically that that was his 16 tide, no. 17 Q. Well, what do you know him, then? How do you 18 know him? 19 A. He's been a -- he's an environmental person 20 that's been at several plants. That's how I know him. 21 Q. Is he above you at die company or in line with 22 you or what? 23 A. I have no idea. 24 Q. Is he in the same department? 25 A. That's a good question. Before, I could have SCRUNCHTM 79 1 easily answered that no. Under die new Solutia regime. 2 he may very well be. Because the plant people now 3 are - report in through the shared services concept. 4 he may very well be in die same organization as ms, but 5 I don't really know. He's certainly not in the chain 6 that I operate in. 7 Q. Do you know anything about his credentials as 8 an engineer or environmental specialist? 9 A. No, I don't. 10 Q. Do you have any reason to question his 11 abilities or his opinions? 12 A. I have no reason to question his abilities or 13 opinions, no. 14 Q. Earlier I was asking you about the storage of 15 PCBs in body fat. To your knowledge, is it true or 16 false that during the storage period, PCBs constandy 17 move out of the fat into die blood and are 18 redistributed to various organs? 19 A. PCBs certainly establish an equilibrium in the 20 fat stores in the human body. So, to the extent that 21 if the fat stores in the blood were somehow reduced or 22 changed, then the PCBs would move in and out of fat to 23 maintain that equilibrium. 24 Q. Does that sound like a true statement, then? 25 A. I think it's a general - generally fair 80 1 characterization, although I don't know about the term 2 "constandy* and I don't know -- as far as die 3 distribution -- I mean, there is a equilibrium. So to *4t die extent that other organs may or may not have a fat 5 repository associated with them, I suppose it's true to 6 that effect. 7 Q. True or false: PCBs are very stable compounds 8 which persist in the environment for many years. 9 A. That's a fair characterization of some of the 10 more highly chlorinated PCBs. It is certainly not true 11 of some of the lowly chlorinated PCBs. 12 Q. Well, tell me what a lower chlorinated PCB is, 13 using the Aroclor designation, like 1246 or whatever? 14 A. You can't do that, because the Aroclor 15 mixtures were complex mixtures of a variety of the 16 possible PCB -- what we call congeners, 17 C-O-N-G-E-N-E-R-S. So 1242, for example, had some 18 lower chlorinated PCBs, it had some more highly 19 chlorinated PCBs. That can basically be true of any of 20 the particular products that we marketed. 21 Q. Exactly. So once those were dumped into the 22 water system around the plant and traveled to 23 Choccolocco Creek, then naturally some of these are 24 going to be persistent in the environment because, 25 according to you, every one of these Aroclors had the Pages 77 - 80 20 HARTOLDMON0014719 81 1 characteristics of being persistent. 2 A. No, that's not true. There are components of 3 the individual Aroclor mixtures, depending on the level 4 of chlorination of that mixture, some of which would be 5 persistent and some of which wouldn't, or some of which 6 had the potential to be persistent. 7 Q. Oh, of course, the potential. 8 A. Absolutely. 9 Q. I'm still not following you. If some of it 10 had the characteristics of dissolving or evaporating or 11 whatever and then some of it didn't, it seems that some 12 portion of it, under every circumstance, is going to 13 persist in the environment. 14 A. Is that a question? 15 Q. Yeah. 16 A. To the extent that the various mixture--I'm 17 just going to say what I've already said. To the 18 extent the various mixtures had some of the more highly 19 chlorinated materials, those materials have a greater 20 potential to persist in the environment than the more 21 lowly chlorinated, in general; although, there are 22 exceptions to that. 23 Q. All right. The question is: Isn't it a feet 24 that every type of PCB released from the Monsanto plant 25 had one of the highly -- what is it? -- chlorinated 82 1 characteristics that you're talking about that makes it 2 persistent? 3 A. I would say that's probably not true. I don't -At IciiG'vV w'iist tiidt means. To the extent thnt mutsrmls 5 were discharged from the plant, they weren't discharged 6 as products, they were discharged however they were 7 discharged. So without -- and certainly within those 8 discharges there was the potential for more lower 9 chlorinated materials and there was certainly the 10 potential for more highly chlorinated materials. To 11 the effect that there were more highly chlorinated 12 materials, those materials are the ones that have the 13 higher potential to persist in die environment for 14 longer periods of time. 15 Q. If they're being found 20, 30 years later, 16 wouldn't you deem them to be persistent in the 17 environment? 18 A. If the materials that are being found in the 19 environment have been there for 20 years, those 20 particular congeners, those particular materials 21 certainly would be considered persistent. 22 Q. When was the last time PCBs were made in 23 Anniston? 1971, wasn't it? Isn't that what you told 24 me? 25 A. That's correct. SCRUNCHTM 83 1 Q. Well, how many years has that been from today? 2 A. I don't know, 27. 3 Q. All right. And you're still finding runoff 4 from your property in your storm water runoff at least 5 by, let's say '89, still had PCBs present, didn't they? 6 MR. PECK: Object to the form of the question. 7 THE WITNESS: When we did the analyses -1 8 don't know feat fee analyses were done in 1989. When 9 fee analyses were done in 1993/1994 time frame, '941 10 guess, there were trace levels of PCBs found in some of 11 the storm water. 12 BY MR. LOWE: 13 Q. All right. There are PCBs on that property 14 right now, aren't there? 15 MR. PECK: Object to fee form of fee question 16 It's very unclear what property. 17 MR. LOWE: The Monsanto Anniston property. It 18 has a fence around it now so people won't come in and 19 play on it anymore. 20 MR. PECK: You mean the landfills? 21 MR. LOWE: And the plant. The plant has a 22 fence around it and the landfills have a fence around 23 it. 24 MR. PECK: I don't recall any fence around fee 25 plant. Maybe you know the plant better than I do. 84 1 MR. LOWE: The last time I drove up there, it 2 had a fence around it. 3 MR. PECK: I drove right in every time I drove AT there. No fence at all. 5 MR. LOWE: That's beside the point. 6 BY MR. LOWE: 7 Q. On fee property in Anniston, owned by Solutia, 8 I suppose, today, there are PCBs in the landfills, 9 aren't there? 10 A. Yes, there are PCBs in some of the landfills 11 on that property. 12 Q. And feat's why you put groundwater monitors 13 there, didn't you? 14 A. No, that has nothing to do with PCBs -- 15 Q. That doesn't have anything to do with PCBs? 16 A. PCBs are not -17 Q. What do those groundwater monitors test for? 18 A. They're testing for the materials that happen 19 to be in the groundwater. They're not testing for 20 anything. They're collecting the water, the samples 21 that are analyzed for the materials that have been 22 detected in groundwater. 23 Q. But they're not looking for PCBs? 24 A. Generally not. In times they have been 25 checked for PCBs and they have not been detected. But Pages 81 - 84 21 HARTOLDMONO014720 85 1 they're not there for PCBs, no, absolutely not. 2 Q. You're not going to dispute that there aren't 3 PCBs existing on the Monsanto property, whether it's 4 the landfills or underneath die concrete slabs in the 5 plant today, are you? 6 A. Well, no. I mean, we know that. We've just 7 undergone a very complex and expansive project to 8 encapsulate, control, and manage those PCBs that happen 9 to be on property that was -- and some of it was and 10 some of it's now -- Solutia property. 11 Q. And this recently completed and ongoing, I 12 suppose, expensive project that you refer to is taking 13 place now, right, 1997 and up until today? 14 A. Through the last several years. 15 Q. And no one dumped any more PCBs on Anniston's 16 property between, let's say, 1984 to today, have they? 17 You're not accepting any more dumping of PCBs in your 18 landfill, are you? 19 A. Well, we never did accept any dumping of PCBs 20 in the landfill. 21 Q. The only point is, they're persistent; they're 22 very persistent, aren't they? 23 A. Some PCB congeners are persistent. I'm not 24 disputing that. 25 Q. I just don't want anyone to get die impression 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 . 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 86 that they all just evaporate and disappear. You're not saying that, are you? A. Not all of them. Some of them do biodegrade. some of them evaporate, some of them are photodegraded. That's more likely to occur with lower chlorinated materials than highly chlorinated materials. I don't think that's any different than what I've been saying. Q. True or false: From your studies, PCBs have been shown to produce adverse health effects on humans, including reproductive and developmental toxicity? A. I'll disagree with that. I don't think that is a fair characterization of the literature. Q. True or false, then: PCBs have been shown to produce adverse health effects in humans, including neurobehavioral alterations? . A. I don't think that's a fair characterization of the literature. Q. How about immunosuppression, adverse effects on immunosuppression? A. I'm not aware of documented reports of immunosuppression in humans. Q. How about endocrine alterations? A. I'm not aware of any literature support for the hypothesis that PCBs cause endocrine alterations, whatever that might mean, in humans, no. SCRUNCHTM 87 1 Q. How about a word spelled P-O-R-P-H-Y-R-I-A? 2 A. Porphyria? There is one report of possible 3 porphyria in one group of Italian workers. Other 4 studies have not confirmed that finding. 5 Q. What is porphyria? 6 A. It's basically an upset in a process which 7 eventually leads to die formation of hemoglobin. 8 Q. What about chloracne? We know it causes that. 9 or can. 10 A. It may cause chloracne. I'm not as convinced 11 of that as some other people, but certainly I will 12 admit or acknowledge that Monsanto -- die doctors at 13 Monsanto will say that PCBs are a possible cause of 14 chloracne. 15 Q. Even the doctors at Monsanto say that; is that 16 what you're telling me? 17 A. I believe a doctor has said that at one point 18 or another. 19 Q. That's an MD doctor, not a Ph.D. doctor? 20 A. That's correct. 21 Q. And you're not an MD, are you? 22 A. I'm certainly not. 23 Q. And your understanding or your disagreements 24 with whether or not adverse health effects occur in 25 humans as a result of PCB exposure is based solely upon 88 . 1 your reading other people's conclusions; is that right? 2 A. My interpretation of those, yes, that's 3 correct. 4 Q. You haven't done any studies on your own? 5 A. No, sir. 6 Q. How do you select what literature you're going' 7 to read on this subject? 8 A. I try to scan as much of it as I can, the ones 9 that tend to -- the ones that I actually read. It just 10 depends. There's no magic thing. Some of them -- 11 after reading enough literature, you have a sense for 12 which ones are worth delving into a little more than 13 others. 14 Q. As a Ph.D. as opposed to an MD, how do you 15 determine whether one researcher's conclusions on 16 reproductive developmental toxicity are any better than 17 anyone else's? 18 A. I rely on the opinions of other scientists ;md 19 other MD's that review that same literature and my 20 understanding of the literature also. 21 Q. Would you agree, then, that there's a fair 22 scientific basis to disagree with your conclusion that 23 it doesn't have an adverse effect on reproductive 24 developmental toxicity? 25 A. I'm sorry? Pages 85 - 88 22 HARTOLDMONO014721 89 1 Q. In other words, you don't dispute that there 2 are scientific studies that have made that conclusion. 3 you have just chosen to disagree with them? 4 A. There are studies that have reached that 5 conclusion. There are also a number of studies that 6 have reached the opposite conclusion, and my 7 evaluation, and others, and the weight of the evidence 8 is that there's no consistent scientific basis or 9 medical basis for holding that conclusion. 10 Q. Of course. As Mr. Monsanto, you get paid to 11 reach that conclusion, don't you? 12 MR. PECK: Object to the form of the question. 13 THE WITNESS: No, I do not. 14 BY MR. LOWE: 15 Q. You don't? How long is your job going to last 16 if you're out telling people near the lake that. All 17 this causes reproductive and developmental toxicity 18 based upon Mr. - Dr. So-and-so's study that I just 19 read? 20 A. If I believed that and if that was my analysis 21 of the literature. I'm sure I would continue in 22 employment just as I do today. 23 Q. You wouldn't be the point man for Monsanto in 24 this case, would you? 25 A. I don't know die answer to that. 90 1 Q. Yeah. All right. What about studies on 2 neurobehavioral alterations, is it fair to say that 3 there are studies out there that have found that PCBs 4 have an adverse effect on human neurobehavioral 5 characteristics? 6 A. That is some people's interpretation of the 7 studies. 8 Q. But you disagree with those, too; is that 9 correct? 10 A. I don't disagree with the particular studies 11 that report their findings. Well, no, that's not true. 12 I do disagree with some of those studies, but I believe 13 the weight of the evidence -- there are more studies 14 which indicate that PCBs don't have that effect, and I 15 believe the weight of die evidence is such that that 16 effect is not consistendy reported. I also know that 17 most of those studies are based on fish consumption 18 largely in the Great Lakes, and the authors of those 19 studies acknowledge that if the effects are real, that 20 they may certainly be caused by other materials besides 21 PCBs. 22 Q. Do you also, then, dispute tests which have 23 found adverse effects on human immunosuppression? 24 A. I don't know who told you to ask that 25 question. SCRUNCHTM 91 1 Q. Well, I thought you said you didn't agree with 2 it. 3 A. I disagree with that. I don't believe there 4 are studies which do make that. 5 Q. You don't think there are any studies? 6 A. As I sit here today --1 mean, you may be able 7 to go find one, but as I sit here today. I'm not aware 8 of any that make that claim, no. 9 Q. But if I find one, you're going to disagree 10 with it, right? 11 A. I don't know that I'll disagree with the 12 study. 13 Q. I have one, but you're going to disagree '.vith 14 it, right? 15 A. I will disagree that it represents the weight 16 of evidence of human populations who have been observed 17 after exposure to PCBs. 18 Q. I thought that you said there hadn't been any 19 studies on immunosuppression? 20 A. I said I wasn't aware of one as I sit here. 21 If you have one, obviously there must be one. 22 Q. But you were going to disagree with it without 23 ever seeing it. 24 A. No. I will look at it and weigh it with the 25 weight of the evidence. I'm certainly aware of studies 92 1 where they've looked for immunosuppression and haven't 2 found it. i 3 Q. Was that a Monsanto-funded study? *4 A. Absolutely not. - 5 Q. How many studies has Monsanto funded on health 6 effects regarding PCBs? 7 A. On humans? 8 Q. Well, you know, that's kind of tough to 9 dissect humans and do an adequate study. How about 10 just studies period, other than your rat study you did 11 20 years ago? 12 A. There are a number of animal studies which 13 Monsanto sponsored in the early 1970s. 14 Q. The puppy study, you're familiar with that 15 one, aren't you? 16 A. The puppy study? 17 Q. Yeah. They fed some dogs and then they 18 dissected the puppies and found that they had adverse 19 effects from PCBs. 20 A. There were studies done of dogs. I don't know 21 about whether they dissected puppies or not, but dogs 22 were among the species that were fed PCBs in a feeding 23 study sponsored by Monsanto, that's correct. 24 Q. And what were the results of that? 25 A. I don't recall specifically. Pages 89 - 92 23 HARTOLDMONO014722 93 1 Q. Well, it wasn't good, is that why you don't 2 recall it? 3 A. No, I just don't recall specifically. 4 Q. Okay. I also must assume that you disagree 5 with any reports or studies which find the porphyria 6 symptom from PCB exposure? 7 A. I think I explained, there is a study that 8 reports that, there are also other studies following up 9 that study which weren't able to reproduce that 10 finding. So, again, I believe Ihe weight of the 11 evidence does not support that PCBs are a cause of 12 porphyria in humans. 13 Q. All right. What about injury to the liver. 14 stomach, thyroid, or kidneys, any studies on those? 15 MR. PECK: In humans? 16 MR. LOWE: Yeah, in humans. 17 THE WITNESS: I think I said that there are 18 reports that high-level exposure to PCBs can cause 19 transient elevations of liver enzymes. 20 BY MR. LOWE: 21 Q. What does that mean, first, and then tell me 22 what studies show that? 23 A. I don't know exactly what studies show it, but 24 that was supposed to be second. It means that in some 25 of the worker populations who have been examined by 94 1 physicians to look for health effects of PCBs, there 2 are certain liver enzymes that show elevations. If you 3 go to the doctor to have a fiscal, one of the things 4 that he gives you is a liver function test. In some 5. cases, PCBs -- people exposed to PCBs have some 6 elevations in some of those liver functions. But after 7 they -- the exposure is stopped, those liver enzymes 8 return to normal levels. 9 Q. Have there been any animal studies where they 10 tested die liver, stomach, any other organs that you're 11 aware of? 12 A. Certainly liver, yes. 13 Q. All right. What were the results of those? 14 A. In high-dose studies or in certain studies. 15 certain doses have caused liver damage in laboratory 16 animals. 17 Q. Were those tests done by Monsanto or funded by 18 Monsanto? 19 A. Some, certainly not all of them, probably not 20 even a significant portion of them, but there were some 21 tests done by Monsanto which I believe demonstrated 22 that, yes. 23 Q. So do you or do you not disagree with those 24 results? 25 A. Which? SCRUNCHTM 95 1 Q. With the liver studies that found high doses 2 that caused some liver effects. 3 A. High doses of PCBs can -- do cause liver 4 damage in laboratory animals. 5 Q. And some of those tests were done by Monsanto, 6 is that right, and they reached that conclusion? 7 A. Yes, I think that's true. 8 Q. All right. And that necessarily causes you to 9 lead to that conclusion, does it? 10 A. Well, not necessarily. 11 Q. Well basically you're biased towards Monsanto, 12 is what I'm hearing. 13 A. That's not true. I'm not biased toward 14 anything. I read the literature and try to understand 15 what each individual piece of literature means in the 16 broader context of other literature on those same 17 issues. If Monsanto said it was the only study that 18 showed liver damage and there were a dozen others by 19 other groups that didn't show liver damage, I would say 20 the weight of the evidence is that PCBs don't cause 21 liver damage in animals, laboratory animals. 22 Q. Does having a Ph.D. in analytical chemistry 23 provide you with any sort of specialized knowledge or 24 ability to analyze and draw a conclusion from 25 scientific testing? > 96 1 A. Well, I think the ability to get a Ph.D. 2 demonstrates an ability to read and understand 3 scientific literature. 4 Q. That's what I'ru getting at. * Is your opinion 5 more credible or valid than anybody else that reads 6 this information? 7 MR. PECK: Object to the form of the question. 8 BY MR. LOWE: 9 Q. That's not what you're telling me, is it, this 10 is just merely your opinion? 11 A. No, it is my opinion. It is not 'merely' my 12 opinion, whatever that may mean, and there are other 13 people who share that opinion that have no association 14 with Monsanto whatsoever. 15 Q. I think that we've gone through this almost ad 16 nauseam now, but there are studies apparently on both 17 sides of the issue of whether or not these particular 18 health effects that I've referenced result from PCb 19 exposure; is that right? 20 MR. PECK: Object to the form of the question 21 as a mischaracterization of the last 30 minutes of 22 testimony. I think the record speaks for itself. 23 THE WITNESS: Do I answer? 24 MR. PECK: Yeah, you can answer. 25 What was the question? Pages 93-96 24 HARTOLDMONO014723 97 1 BY MR. LOWE: 2 Q. Can you -- 3 A. I know enough to answer the question. For the 4 health effects which you have mentioned, with die 5 exception of those where I said I couldn't bring to 6 mind any specific studies, specifically 7 immunosuppression is the one that comes to my mind, 8 there are studies which report findings that die 9 authors may or may not attribute to PCBs. There are 10 other studies which don't report those findings. Did 11 that answer your question? 12 Q. No. Let me ask you another one. Having 13 performed, yourself, no studies regarding reproductive 14 or developmental toxicity in humans relating to PCB 15 exposure, how do you feel that you're qualified -- and 16 you may not feel qualified -- to question or dispute a 17 study by someone who actually did the scientific 18 testing and concluded that there are adverse effects? 19 A. Well, I do feel like I'm qualified to try to 20 read and understand and critique any individual study 21 and any body of literature on a particular issue. I 22 don't know that that gives my opinion any more weight 23 than anyone else's opinion. I also utilize other 24 resources available to, in some cases, test whether 25 that opinion is consistent with other people's 98 1 understanding and in these particular cases there are 2 lots of other physicians and toxicologists whose 3 opinion would be the same as mine on these particular 4 issues. 5 Q. Well, these issues come up often, don't they, 6 particularly when you're speaking to public groups and 7 answering questions about PCB exposure? 1 mean, the 8 health effects, and that's the primary concern of 9 anyone, isn't it? Isn't that what you found in your 10 experience as being the point man for answering PCB 11 questions at Monsanto? Isn't it? 12 A. Which of those questions do you want me to 13 answer? 14 Q. Let me ask one question. That was compound. 15 you're right. He should have objected. 16 MR. PECK: Which one are you going to ask? 17 BY MR. LOWE: 18 Q. I'm trying to figure out which one to ask 19 first. Is it the most often asked question of you 20 regarding PCB exposure, isn't it a health-related 21 question? 22 A. In what context? 23 Q. When you're speaking to the public. 24 A. I do that so rarely that I don't have a basis 25 to answer. That's kind of where I was going to begin SCRUNCH^ 99 1 with. I rarely speak to the public in die forum that 2 you're talking about, for instance, die Pell City 3 meeting which you seem to be aware of. 4 Q. And quoted in the newspaper. 5 A. And in that situation and in that particular 6 talk, I addressed my understanding summarily of the 7 health effects of PCBs, and I frankly don't recall that 8 there were any questions addressing that particular 9 issue. There may have been, but certainly -- go ahead. 10 Ask whatever die next question is. 11 Q. What did you do to prepare yourself to 12 ascertain whether or not one study should, in ycvr 13 opinion, outweigh another on any of these issues? 14 A. I consider my training as a scientist for lo 15 these many years has prepared me to do that. 16 Q. What training do you have? 17 A. I'm trained ~ I have a Ph.D. in analytical 18 chemistry and that involves critical reading of die 19 literatures. I've done since then lots of reading 20 about other academic disciplines including toxicology 21 and some of the issues that you're addressing here and 22 I feel that I'm qualified to read and understand and 23 develop an opinion about that literature. 24 Q. Okay. I'm just a lawyer. I didn't really 25 have to do anything in getting educated, you know. But 100 1 to get a Ph.D. in analytical chemistry, what exactly 2 did you have to do? 3 A. I had to take several years of course work and A *T do a research project. 5 Q. Did you take courses in human anatomy? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Toxicology? 8 A. No. 9 Q. What exactly did you have to do? Did you have 10 to memorize -- 11 A. I took courses in -- 12 Q. -- the elements in the environment? I guess 13 surely you did that in your chemistry classes. What 14 did you have to do to get a Ph.D. in analytical 15 . chemistry? 16 A. I told you, I had to take several years of 17 course work and did a thesis. 18 Q. What were the topics of these courses that you 19 were taking? 20 A. Chemistry. 21 Q. Were you reading literature? 22 A. In some cases, yeah. 23 Q. What were the subjects? That's the bottom 24 line. 25 A. Chemistry, primary analytical chemistry. Pages 97 -100 . 25 HARTOLDMONO014724 101 1 Organic chemistry, or physical chemistry; environmental 2 chemistry. 3 Q. Were any of those taught by the medical 4 school? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Do you think it's prudent to try to minimize 7 exposures of PCBs to the environment? 8 A. I'm sorry, would you repeat that question. 9 Q. Do you think it's prudent to try to minimize 10 releases of PCBs to the environment? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Why is that? 13 A. Because I believe that PCBs are an industrial 14 chemical. They were manufactured to be used as an 15 industrial chemical. They should have been used 16 under -- and were in those characteristics. They were 17 a material that has been reported to be in the 18 environment at high levels. They have shown in some 19 cases to cause effects in wildlife and for those 20 reasons, their releases should be minimized to die 21 extent consistent with good practice and risk benefit 22 analysis. 23 Q. If Monsanto is shown to be a source of PCBs 24 that are found or that exist in Choccolocco Creek and 25 Lake Logan Martin, is it your opinion that Monsanto or *102 1 Solutia should remediate or clean up those PCBs? 2 A. I think Monsanto should have a responsibility 3 to evaluate various alternatives to, you know, 4 remediate, for lack of a better term, those PCBs 5 consistent with good science and understanding of the 6 system, yes. 7 Q. I'm not talking about evaluating alternatives. 8 Should they be responsible for cleaning it up? I'm not 9 talking about after that decision's made how it's going 10 to be cleaned up, I'm talking whether or not they 11 undertake the responsibility of cleaning it up. 12 MR. PECK: Object to die form of the question. 13 THE WITNESS: What do you mean by "clean it 14 up"? 15 BY MR. LOWE: 16 Q. Take any effort whatsoever to remediate the 17 property. 18 A. If, after the project, the process that we're 19 involved in, the RCRA process, is completed and there 20 is an opportunity to understand the system and to 21 evaluate alternative measures in that system, if the 22 decision i? made that certain remedial measures are 23 appropriate, Monsanto will undertake those measures, 24 yes, or Solutia. 25 Q. You're saying if Monsanto concludes that there SCRUNCHTM 103 1 are some appropriate measures to remediate, that 2 they're willing to do; it's that what you're telling 3 me? 4 A. No. I'm saying that the course of study that 5 we're involved in at this point will help us understand 6 the system, it will help us understand how PCBs move 7 through that system, it will help us understand how 8 PCBs get from whatever's in that system to the fish, 9 and it will help us understand what potential there is 10 for remedial measures. Then we will make proposals to 11 the various regulatory agencies and it is their final 12 decision whether our proposals are accepted or rejected 13 and how that process will be carried out. 14 Q. If there is a finding that Monsanto 15 contributed to cause the existence of die PCBs that now 16 exist in Lake Logan Martin and Choccolocco Creek, do 17 you disagree that Monsanto should be responsible for 18 paying for and perhaps even creating some measures for 19 remediation? 20 MR. PECK: Object to the form of the question. 21 It calls for a legal conclusion. 22 Go ahead. 23 THE WITNESS: I don't know how to answer that 24 other than just say what I've already said. We are _25 involved in a process which will enable us and our 1 consultants to understand the Choccolocco Creek/Lake 2 Logan Martin system, the presence or absence of PCBs in 3 that system, the movement of PCBs in that system. That 4 information will guide us into proposing or 5 understanding what various remedial measures might be 6 appropriate or might not be appropriate in that 7 particular system and we will develop a 8 corrective-measures plan or study to present to the 9 State and the state regulatory officials will be able 10 to act on that plan. 11 Q. Is it fair to say, then, that Monsanto/Solutia 12 is already undertaking a process to clean up the PCBs 13 that are in the lake? 14 A. We are undertaking a process to understand the 15 system that will eventually guide us into being able to 16 propose one or more measures which will address the 17 PCBs in that system. 18 Q. Well, you're not denying responsibility for 19 contributing to the PCBs that exist in Choccolocco 20 Creek or Lake Logan Martin, are you? 21 MR. PECK: Object to the form of the question. 22 Asked and answered three or four times already. 23 THE WITNESS: We're involved in a process 24 which will help us understand the sources, the movement 25 of PCBs in that system. Pages 101 -104 26 HARTOLDMONO014725 105 1 BY MR. LOWE: 2 Q. How do PCBs move from one point in a creek to 3 another point in a creek? 4 A. Generally they move by associated with 5 sediments that are moving in die creek. 6 Q. That's right, and that's how they got from 7 Monsanto to Snow Creek to Choccolocco Creek to Lake 8 Logan Martin, isn't it? 9 A. That's the potential scenario. That's part of 10 what we're trying to understand, is where they started, 11 where they got to where they are now, how they got 12 there, how fast are they getting there, how fast are 13 they getting covered up, are there other sources, are 14 the data in consistent with or consistent with Monsanto 15 or any other facility being a source of those PCBs. 16 It's not the yes-or-no, deny/not deny question that 17 you're asking. It's a process that we're involved with 18 to understand all of those issues that you're raising. 19 Q. Monsanto has known since 1969 or '70 how these 20 migrated down the creek and to the lake. Now, why in 21 1998 do you need to figure that out again? 22 A. I don't know that we know about migration to 23 the lake. We certainly understand that PCBs were in 24 sediments, potential of leaving the plant, leaving the 25 plant into Snow Creek, but we don't even know where the 106 1 PCBs are in Lake Logan Martin. We don't know if we're 2 the source, if somebody else is the source, where the 3 fish are getting them. We don't understand that. 4 Before we or anybody else spends a lot of money 5 usefully or uselessly trying to do some remediation 6 project or one another, we need to understand the 7 answers to those questions. 8 Q. Well, what took you 30 years to do it? You're 9 talking about going into the year 2000 with some 10 studies to figure out what everybody's known for 30 11 years. Why are you doing that? 12 A. What has everybody known for 30 years? 13 Q. That there are PCBs that have flowed from the 14 plant to Snow Creek, Choccolocco Creek, and eventually 15 into Lake Logan Martin. 16 MR. PECK: If you've known that for 30 years, 17 you should have filed a lawsuit for 30 years ago. 18 MR. LOWE: I wasn't a lawyer then. 19 MR. PECK: Your client should have. Statute 20 of limitation bars the entire claim, then. 21 BY MR. LOWE: 22 Q. Well, that's another point. If Monsanto -- 23 MR. PECK: That's crazy, Clay, if that's your 24 position. 25 MR. LOWE: Do you have an argument or an . SCRUNCHTM 107 1 objection? 2 MR. PECK: Yeah, I object to the form of the 3 question. It's a ridiculous question. 4 MR. LOWE: Good. 5 BY MR. LOWE: 6 Q. Answer my question. 7 A. Which was? 8 MR. PECK: Monsanto's certainly known for 30 9 years. 10 MR. LOWE: We know that. 11 MR. GRAMMAS: They've known for 30 years. 12 MR. PECK: You guys have known for 30 years - 13 MR. GRAMMAS: I said you guys, this man's 14 company. 15 MR. PECK: We have not known for 30 years that 16 PCBs in Lake Logan Martin are at the levels above the 17 FDA - 18 MR. GRAMMAS: Now we're going to qualify, Oh, 19 levels above an advisory. You've known that the 20 PCBs -- you being -- the client that you represent 21 have known that the PCB are leaving that plant and 22 going in the lake system. This testimony is 23 ridiculous. 24 MR. LOWE: Let's stop the editorial comments. __25 We all want to leave by 4:00. 1 MR. GRAMMAS: Stop talking about statute of 2 limitations. . 3 MR. LOWE: Enough, enough, enough. Stop. 4 BY MR. LOWE: 5 Q. Why do you want to continue this into the next 6 century when you already know what the levels are? Why 7 don't you do some sediment testing and clean it up? 8 A. We are involved in a process which will 9 involve extensive sediment testing and that will help 10 us understand the system and what potential remediation 11 measures are appropriate or not appropriate for that 12 particular system. At that point we will propose a 13 corrective-measure study to the state regulatory 14 agencies under whose oversight -- assuming that the 15 measures are deemed appropriate, we or someone else 16 maybe will undertake those measures. 17 Q. Do you have any reason to believe you're not 18 going to find PCB levels above one part per million in 19 sediment in Choccolocco Creek? 20 A. Choccolocco Creek runs for 30 miles. There 21 may be some at one part per million some places, there 22 may be not be others. That's why we have to do the 23 study. 24 Q. That's right. Do you have any reason to 25 believe, though, that there aren't going to be levels Pages 105 -108 27 HARTOLDMONO014726 109 1 such as that anywhere in the creek or on the bank? 2 MR. PECK: I object to the form of the 3 question. 4 THE WITNESS: As I sit here today, I will 5 assume that some places in Choccolocco Creek may very 6 well have levels above one part per million. I would 7 also assume that other places in Choccolocco Creek 8 won't have such levels. 9 BY MR. LOWE: 10 Q. What about die confluence of Choccolocco Creek 11 and Lake Logan Martin, wouldn't you reasonably expect, 12 based on your experience and all of die data that 13 you've read, that PCBs would have migrated all die way 14 to what we call the delta area where Choccolocco Creek 15 dumps into Lake Logan Martin? 16 A. I'm not going to presume to answer that 17 question. That's what our study's designed to 18 investigate. 19 Q. Well, many years ago Monsanto determined that 20 the fish in that area had over two parts per million, 21 didn't they? 22 A. I believe that's consistent with some of die 23 studies done in die 1970s, yes. 24 Q. And due to the persistent nature of PCBs, 25 isn't it reasonable to believe that PCBs are still -- 1 there even after all these years? 2 A. Whether they're there or not and whether 3 they're above one part per million or not -- I'm just 4 going to go back and say I think that's exactly why we 5 are doing the study or would propose to do the study 6 that we propose, to help us and others understand the 7 answers to those questions and what the significance of 8 those answers is. 9 Q. Explain to me why 1998? Why are you just now 10 going through this so-called extensive and exhaustive 11 study to determine whether or not some remediation 12 should be done? Why now? 13 A. It's several things. Number one, for whatever 14 reason, the fish levels in Choccolocco and Lake Logan 15 Martin, certainly Lake Logan Martin, seemed to have had 16 some sort of step increase. I think it's partly 17 because of the fact that we are involved in a RCRA part 18 B process at the facility. It's partly because our 19 investigations, primarily as part of that process, 20 actually, have identified trace levels of PCBs in storm 21 water leaving that facility. There's lots of reasons 22 why I know. 23 Q. But you haven't told me anything that Monsanto 24 couldn't have determined 20 years ago. They knew they 25 were discharging at that point in time. They knew that SCRUNCHTM 111 1 fish had elevated levels of PCBs at that time. The 2 only difference we have now is some federal and state 3 involvement demanding that you clean up your plant. 4 MR. PECK: Object to die form of the question. 5 Assumes facts not in evidence. 6 BY MR. LOWE: 7 Q. Now, why didn't Monsanto do something about 8 this many years ago? 9 A. Well, we have done a number of things 10 throughout the years. 11 Q. Like what? 12 A. Most importantly, we stopped the manufacturing 13 process in 1971. We continued some investigations 14 through the early 1970s. In 1984 we looked at the 15 issue around sediments in those ditches. I don't 16 believe now that the materials leaving the plant in the 17 storm water, the few part-per-billion levels, were 18 having or are having any impact on Snow Creek, 19 Choccolocco Creek, or further downstream. But we are 20 involved in this process that's -- that we're 21 cooperating with the federal agencies to get our Pari B 22 permit and do what needs to be done on the PCBs that 23 have been located. 24 Q. Have you determined - or anybody at Monsanto 25 or Solutia -- determined what findings will trigger : -- _ 1 Monsanto agreeing to remediate areas of Choccolocco 2 Creek and handle the lake? . 3 A. That's the whole process in a nutshell. The -Ar findings that we find will be integrated, probably will 5 prompt other testing, and that will in fact drive 6 whatever corrective measures need to be done. Risk 7 assessments involvement, there's a process that we're 8 involved in. 9 Q. What time frame has Monsanto or Solutia set 10 for establishing all of this? 11 A. We're moving as rapidly as we can. . 12 Q. What's the time frame? 13 A. Well, the bulk of the studies will be done in 14 1999, presumably the initial steps of risk assessment, 15 remedy identification or potential remedy. 16 identification, further testing will be done in, I 17 guess, the year 2000. 18 Q. And then what? 19 A. Then we will submit a proposal or study to the 20 State, they will determine what measures that we 21 proposed or what measures we haven't proposed might be 22 appropriate for remediation, if any. 23 Q. And then all the while there's still going to 24 be fish advisories, there's going to be people who eat 25 the fish anyway, there's going to be kids that play in Pages 109 -112 28 HARTOLDMONO014727 113 1 the water or whatever, and they're going to be 2 bioaccumulating PCBs; although they've been doing it 3 for 30 years, it's still going to persist in the 4 environment while you guys screw around for another 5 three or four years just to figure out whether or not 6 you want to do anything and to keep ADEM at bay; is 7 that a lair statement? 8 MR. PECK: Object to the form of the question. 9 STPHAO: Is that a question or a speech? 10 MR. LOWE: It's a fair statement, no. 11 BY MR. LOWE: 12 Q. Did this lawsuit or any of the other lawsuits 13 that have been filed against Monsanto over PCBs in the 14 Anniston area, has that motivated any of this? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Not at all? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Okay. 19 A. We were involved in a Part B process with 20 ADEM. That process would have been carried out. 21 litigation or no litigation. 22 MR. KELLY: We can put you on the record and 23 let you testily. 24 MR. GRAMMAS: Why, I haven't said a word. 25 Would you like to testily? 114 1 MR. KELLY: I'm just watching your antics. 2 MR. GRAMMAS: My antics, when this man denies 3 that a lawsuit's motivated this company to cleaning up 4 stuli they've known they've been dumping? 5 MR. KELLY: Now we've got you on the record 6 testifying what your antics are about. That's what I 7 wanted. 8 BY MR. LOWE: 9 Q. Has Monsanto or Solutia reserved any amount of 10 money in anticipation of performing studies of cleanups 11 of the lake and Choccolocco Creek? 12 A. I'm sure they have. I don't know that 13 specifically. 14 Q. How15 A. That's standard procedure when we have 16 cleanups. My understanding is that when we have 17 cleanups either in process or potentially, that there 18 are reserves set aside for that. 19 Q. What is the reserve for this case? 20 A. I have no idea. 21 MR. PECK: That's a different question 22 entirely. You're not entitled to die answer of that 23 question. 24 BY MR. LOWE: 25 Q. I don't care about the legal reserves an all SCRUNCHTM 115 1 that kind of stuff. I want to know just the reserves 2 for remediating, studying, whatever it is you're trying 3 to do with regard to the lake and Choccolocco Creek. 4 A. I don't know the answer to that. 5 Q. You're not privy to that kind of information? 6 A. I don't know what you mean by "privy." I 7 suppose if I went and asked die question, I might get 8 an answer. I don't know the answer. 9 Q. But no one's told you that? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Do you think that you could find out during 12 lunch if you can ask? 13 MR. PECK: He's not going to do that. It's 14 not his job. You're going to see other witnesses. We 15 don't have an obligation to go out and do research for 16 you during a damn deposition and we're not going to do 17 it18 MR. LOWE: I asked him if he could find out 19 during lunch. Lighten up, guys. Come on. Do you need 20 a beer for lunch? I'm sorry you-all got so upset. 21 We're just asking questions. Lighten up. 22 BY MR. LOWE: 23 Q. Who would know in your company? 24 A. I assume Mr. Faust would know. I don't know 25 that for sure. 116 1 Q. Is he going to be in charge of this 2 remediation process into the next millennium? 3 A. He is die remediation manager at the Anniston -At site for the RCRA process, yes. 5 Q. Is part of your message in talking with people 6 about PCBs, particularly at the Anniston plant, to show 7 that Monsanto wants to be a good neighbor to all the 8 people around them? 9 A. Is that part of our message? I don't know if 10 that's part of our message or not. I think we do want 11 to be a good neighbor. I'm sure that we want to be a 12 good neighbor. 13 Q. Were you involved in the process of -- or 14 Monsanto's process of buying up all the neighboring 15 or many of the neighboring houses to the Anniston 16 plant? 17 A. I was aware of it. I don't know that I was 18 involved in it. 19 Q. You didn't take any part in that process? I 20 mean, as the point man, certainly these people were 21 asking you questions about it or at least the Alabama 22 Department of Public Health. 23 A. I'm trying to remember. I believe I may have 24 been present as a resource when the program was 25 announced. I'm not positive. As I sit here today, I'm Pages 113 -116 29 HARTOLDMONO014728 117 1 not positive about that, but I think that's true. 2 Q. Why was that process undertaken by Monsanto, 3 the property buy-up, for lack of a better word? 4 A. As a result of your extensive sampling and 5 characterization of the area east of the plant, we 6 realized that in fact there were PCBs in the sediments 7 in those ditches, in some cases, PCBs out of the 8 sediment -- or out of die course of those ditches, and 9 understood that in order to manage and control those 10 PCBs, it would be best for us to own that property. 11 Q. You actually bought the properly and tore down 12 many of the homes; isn't that right? 13 A. We tore down structures on the property that 14 we purchased, yes. 15 Q. Why was that necessary, in your opinion? 16 A. Well, because the process that -- the interim 17 measure that we have undertaken to remediate that 18 property involved placing a synthetic cover and a soil 19 cover over those areas. Obviously that would be very 20 difficult to do over existing structures. 21 Q. Was that -- 22 A. And not sensible to do. 23 Q. Was that process with the soil cover and the 24 liner cover, was that to prevent the further release of 25 erosion of PCBs off that property? 118 1 A. It was to prevent the potential of that 2 release, yes. 3 Q. The potential? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. It's starting to sound almost like improper 6 relationships. I keep.hearing "potential." 7 The'erosion was causing the release of PCB; 8 that is, a washing off of this property around these 9 homes, weren't they? 10 A. I don't think we know die answer. The PCBs 11 associated with sediments and storm water were coming 12 from somewhere. It could have been landfills, it could 13 have been on the property, but we covered it to 14 eliminate tire potential for those PCBs to -- 15 Q. .How much money did Monsanto spend buying up 16 property in that area? 17 A. I don't know the answer to that. 18 Q. You weren't involved in that? 19 A. Not in the monetary things. I don't really 20 know the answer. 21 (LUNCH RECESS.) 22 BY MR. LOWE: 23 Q. Let's focus on the demolition of the 24 properties that Monsanto bought adjacent to die 25 Anniston plant. Were you involved in that process of SCRUNCHTM 119 1 buying up the property and demolition? 2 A. Not directly. I was aware of it. 3 Q. What involvement did you have? 4 A. I guess I was just basically consulted on what 5 the procedures -- not so much for the buying of the 6 property, that was handled by an outside consulting 7 firm. The demolition, just basically consulted on the 8 demolition plans, if it made sense, whatever point of 9 view I could bring to it. 10 Q. What kind of information were you asked to 11 give, then, in regard to the demolition? 12 A. Questions about what kind of testing might be 13 appropriate on the materials prior to disposal, that 14 kind of stuff primarily. 15 Q. What did you tell them? 16 A. I told them I thought we ought to test the 17 bulk materials prior to disposal. 18 Q. What's the bulk material you're talking about, 19 the actual wood from houses or what? 20 A. Test some of the wood, some of the fleering 21 material, whatever was going to need to be disposed of, 22 just take some bulk samples of that. 23 Q. Who was asking you these questions? 24 A. Primarily Mr. Faust. 25 Q. Did he oversee the demolition? 120 . 1 A. He had the ultimate responsibility, yeah. 2 Q. Did he hire the contractor to do this? 3 A. I'm sure he did. 4 Q, Ars you fkmili&r 'wiui tvliat sort of protection 5 practices the workers who actually engaged in the 6 demolition undertook to protect themselves from 7 exposure? 8 A. From exposure to PCBs? 9 Q. Yes. 10 A. I don't think they took any specific 11 precautions themselves. They were very strict 12 dust-control measures in place throughout the whole 13 demolition process. 14 Q. Were those questions that you were asked for 15 input? 16 A. Probably, yeah. I mean, I remember having 17 those kinds of discussions. 18 Q. What kind of steps were taken to reduce the 19 possibility of exposure to PCBs for these construction 20 workers? 21 A. Well, I don't know that we really took any 22 particular steps to protect the exposure. We 23 instituted dust-control measures just to be sure that 24 there wasn't a dust situation, whether it was the 25 workers or die adjoining property owners or whatever. Pages 117 -120 30 HARTOLDMONO014729 121 1 But the facilities wet down thoroughly before the 2 demolition began and continued to be wet down during 3 demolition. 4 Q. Where did die runoff from this water go? 5 A. I don't think there was that much. It just 6 soaked into the ground, as far as I know. 7 Q. And then after the houses were removed, you 8 tested the materials for PCBs; is that right? 9 A. No, it was actually done before the 10 demolition, I believe. 11 Q. But then after the houses were removed, did 12 you test the soil underneath for PCBs? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Why did you buy the property, then? 15 A. Because we needed that property to facilitate 16 construction and institute management control measures 17 for those - for the PCBs that were in those ditches in 18 those areas. 19 Q. So what have you used the property where the 20 houses were located for? What's been done to it other 21 than the houses have been moved off of it? 22 A. It has been uncovered with a geotextile 23 barrier layer and at least 14 inches of dirt have been 24 put on top of it. It's been sodded -- or, reseeded. 25 I'm sorry, seeded. 122 1 Q. How many acres did this involve? 2 A. I don't remember specifically. I think it's 3 in my -- it seems like it was around 40 or 50 acres. 4 something like that, on the east side. We're 5 undertaking that same effort on the north side right 6 now. It's a much smaller area. 7 Q. Did the Alabama Department of Public Health in 8 1996 classify the West End Landfill at Monsanto a 9 public health hazard? 10 A. I believe those words are in their health 11 assessment document, yes. 12 Q. Did the Alabama Department of Public Health 13 classify the West End T jmtfill at Monsanto as a public 14 health hazard? 15 A. I believe those words are in their document. 16 yes. 17 Q. You can't say yes or no, can you? 18 A. Yes, I can. 19 Q. Okay. Answer yes or no. The Alabama 20 Department of Public Health classified the West End 21 Landfill at Monsanto as a public health hazard in 1996. 22 A. Those words are in their document, yes. 23 Q. Is that a yes answer? 24 A. The answer speaks for itself. It's there. 25 Q. Yes or no? We don't have their document in SCRUNCHTM 123 I front of us. I'm asking you your knowledge of the 2 situation. 3 A. My knowledge is that those words appear in 4 that document, yes. 5 Q. Did the landfill at Monsanto, was it ever 6 classified as a public health hazard by anyone? 7 A. Now I'm trying to think what the documents 8 really talked about. Yes, I believe the Alabama 9 Department of Public Health in their health assessment 10 referred to the area, the West End Landfill, as a -- or 11 whatever die words are -- a public health hazard, if 12 that's what die words are in the document. Without 13 seeing it in front of me, I don't know what their words 14 are anyway. 15 Q. But you're die one that talked to them at the 16 Alabama Department of Public Health, didn't you, about 17 the assessment in responding to that health 18 consultation, didn't you? 19 A. I responded to that, yes. 20 Q. Why did you respond to it? 21 A. Because I felt there was erroneous information 22 in it. 23 Q. Based upon your knowledge and training and 24 reading of the literature regarding PCBs, you thought 25 you should respond to their health consultation or were 124 1 you directed to respond by one of your superiors? 2 A. It was my decision in consultation with other 3 people, Mr. Faust and others, involved in die Anniston ~AT SltU2itlCa> 5 Q. Okay. Who else did you consult with other 6 than Mr. Faust? 7 A. That's the only one I really remember. 8 Q. Were there other people or not? 9 A. I'm sure the attorneys looked at what I wrote, 10 yes. 11 MR. PECK: Obviously. Don't disclose 12 information between counsel. 13 MR. LOWE: He knows that. That's why he's 14 being evasive in his answer to begin with. 15 THE WITNESS: I was not being evasive in my 16 answer. 17 MR. PECK: You're not entitled to get into 18 that, you know, anyway. 19 MR. LOWE: Right. I agree with his objection. 20 Thank you for stating it. 21 BY MR. LOWE: 22 Q. Did the Alabama Department of Public Health, 23 in this same health consultation in 1996 that we 24 referenced earlier, classify Snow Creek as a public 25 health hazard because of the presence of PCBs? Pages 121 -124 31 HARTOLDMONO014730 125 1 A. I would have to see die document Number one, 2 I don't think -- if they even did, it probably wasn't 3 in that document and I'm not sure to what extent they 4 characterized that area, the east side area. I don't 5 know what the answer is. 6 Q. You reviewed the health consultation, 7 obviously, when it came in, didn't you? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And did you single-handedly prepare a response 10 or did you get any help in preparing a response to it? 11 A. Actually we engaged an outside consultant to 12 also look at it, as I recall now. 13 Q. Why did you do that? 14 A. Because we felt that this particular person 15 had expertise in matters addressed in the health 16 assessment. 17 Q. Had you used this Dr. Kimbro (PHONETIC) 18 before? Wasn't that her name? 19 A. Have I used her before? 20 Q. For health consultation responses or any other 21 purpose at Monsanto. 22 A. We've consulted her at various times 23 throughout the years, yes. 24 Q. For what? 25 A. Her opinions and expertise on issues around 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 126 PCBs primarily. Q. What other sites? A. I didn't say there were any other sites. Q. Okay. Be more specific. A. Well, she's a knowledgeable person about PCBs, she's been involved with PCBs, and at various times we've asked her opinion. In this particular case we felt that she would be a person valuable to have to look at this health assessment. Q. All right. I anticipate this woman may -- she's an expert in this case, whether testifying or not, and I would like to know what other matters you. Monsanto or Solutia, has used her in? A. In litigation? Q. Anything. A. I don't know if there have been any specific matters. She's a person that I have occasional conversations with and I respect her opinions on issues regarding PCBs and other things. Q. Have you asked her for advice -- prior to this health consultation in 1996 from Alabama Department of Public Health, have you ever asked her for advice on other PCB-related issues? A. I believe so, yes. Q. Okay. Tell me the circumstances of you asking SCRUNCHTM 127 1 her for her advice. 2 A. I don't recall any specific circumstances. 3 Q. Do you recall die Alabama Department of Public 4 Health classifying Choccolocco Creek as a public health 5 hazard in the same 1996 health consultation because of 6 the presence of PCBs? 7 A. I can't answer that without seeing die 8 document. 9 MR. LOWE: Let's mark this as Exhibit 1 to 10 your deposition. 11 (PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT NO. 1 WAS FIRST DULY 12 MARKED, RECEIVED AND MADE A PART OF THE RECORD.) 13 MR. PECK: We are operating under the usual 14 stipulations, I think. He was not in the room when he 15 had that discussion. We are operating under the usual 16 stipulations for today and yesterday and I don't know 17 if they put it on record yesterday, but we've agreed. 18 when you weren't here, probably before we came back 19 from the lunch break that that would be die case, and 20 both the witnesses, both Mr. Cheever and Dr. Kaley, 21 wish to read and sign their depositions. Is everybody 22 in agreement on that? 23 MR. GRAMMAS: Yeah. 24 MR. LOWE: Yes.. 25 BY MR. LOWE: 128 1 Q. Take a minute to look at what we've marked as 2 Exhibit 1, please. 3 A. Do you want me to read the whole thing? 4 Q. You don't have to, you don't have to look at 5 any of it, but do look at the first page. It's dated 6 February 15, 1996, and it's addressed to you, Robert G. 7 Kaley, from Brian J. Hughes at the Department of Public 8 Health. Do you recall receiving this document? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And does this appear to be die health 11 consultation that we were talking about a minute ago 12 where you did not recollect whether or not certain 13 properties were deemed to be public health hazards? 14 A. Well, you characterized it as the health 15 consultation to the Monsanto West End Landfill. That 16 was part of my difficulty in that I didn't recognize 17 that terminology. This is in fact the health 18 consultation for Monsanto Company in Anniston, Alabama. 19 Q. Oh, the whole plant, it's the whole plant and 20 all the property, right? 21 A. Without reading it, I don't remember what 22 exacdy it is, but basically just whatever it addresses 23 in here, it addresses in here. I haven't read it 24 recendy. 25 Q. The only reason we have this in front of you Pages 125 -128 32 HARTOLDMONO014731 129 1 is because you said, I cannot answer that without 2 seeing the document. 3 A. All right. 4 Q. Is that the document? 5 A. What question am I supposed to answer? 6 Q. Let's look at Page 21. Flip on over to Page 7 21 in Exhibit 1. It says "Conclusions." Real easy. 8 A. Okay. 9 Q. Do you see paragraph 1? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. "After reviewing the data, we have classified 12 the WEL" - that stands for West End Landfill, right? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. On die Monsanto plant. 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. In Anniston. 17 -- "EDD" -- what does that stand for? 18 A. East drainage ditch. 19 Q. And then - "Snow Creek" -- we know what that 20 is -- "and Choccolocco Creek as a public health 21 hazard." 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Do you recall that now? 24 A. That's what it says. 25 Q. And you don't dispute now that the Alabama 130 1 Department of Public Health in 1996 issued a 2 determination to you and apparently for public 3 dissemination, perhaps, if it is indeed public 4 record -- 5 A. It is. 6 Q. -- that the West End Landfill on the Monsanto 7 property, the east drainage ditch on the Monsanto 8 property. Snow Creek, and Choccolocco Creek were public 9 health hazards. You don't dispute that? 10 A. I do not dispute that that's what APH says. 11 Q. And that refreshes your recollection, then, I 12 hope, regarding the Alabama Department of Public 13 Health's conclusion in 1996? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. So you can answer yes or no to those questions 16 now. 17 A. I just did. 18 Q. Okay. That's what I thought. 19 Were you involved in giving the Alabama 20 Department of Public Health any information that they 21 used in preparing this health consultation. Exhibit 1? 22 A. I believe so, yes. 23 Q. Do you recall what information you gave to 24 them? 25 A. Primarily specifics about this particular SCRUNCHTM 131 1 site. I don't recall specifically. 2 Q. And once you received this Exhibit 1, die 3 health consultation, what steps did you take? 4 A. I read the document, I decided that there were 5 things in there that I thought deserved comment, and 6 asked Dr. Kimbro to look at the document and asked her 7 to prepare a report or jot down or whatever her review 8 of the document and I wrote my comments and submitted 9 them to the State. 10 Q. Is Dr. Kimbro an employee of Monsanto? 11 A. No, sir. 12 Q. Ever been? 13 A. No, sir. 14 Q. Where is she employed? 15 A. She was originally at Centers for Disease 16 Control, then at die U.S. EPA, and now she works for a 17 consulting firm in Washington D.C. 18 Q. How many other matters has Monsanto engaged 19 her on, do you know? 20 A. I don't recall. I don't know. Not very many. 21 Not very many. She's a person I talk to. She's very 22 knowledgeable. 23 Q. Are you consulted normally on storage 24 questions for PCBs? 25 A. I would say not normally, but that doesn't 132 1 mean I haven't been asked a question by a call or 2 something. 3 Q. And how about incineration questions? ~AT A. I would say again not normally, but I probably 5 have been asked questions about that. 6 Q. Let's talk about the public meeting you 7 attended in Pell City. Do you have a recollection as 8 to how long ago that was? 9 A. My recollection was the summer of '97. 10 Q. Was that a meeting that was called or 11 scheduled by Monsanto? 12 A. No. 13 Q. What was die occasion for you attending the 14 meeting? 15 A. My understanding was that it was the annual 16 meeting of the Lake Logan Martin Protective 17 Association, and that Mr. Greer (PHONETIC), who is a 18 president or an officer in that association, contacted 19 Monsanto and asked for someone to come and talk about 20 what we were doing over at the plant. 21 Q. A Mr. Greer; is that right? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Had you met with Mr. Greer before this meeting 24 in'97? 25 A. No, sir. Pages 129 -132 33 HARTOLDMONO014732 133 1 Q. Didn't know him before? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Did you meet him at the meeting -4 A. Yes. 5 Q. -- for die first time? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Did you, before attending the meeting, report 8 your anticipated attendance to any superiors at 9 Monsanto? 10 A. I'm sure I did. 11 Q. Who would that have been? 12 A. Well, my superior's Mr. Foresman. I'm sure I 13 told him. 14 Q. Do you have to file any sort of written 15 reports regarding your daily, weekly, monthly, or 16 annual activities? 17 A. No. 18 Q. How is your work supervised? 19 A. I'm frankly pretty much left to my own 20 devices. 21 Q. Did you ask anyone else from Monsanto or 22 Solutia or any related company to attend this meeting 23 with you in 1997? 24 A. Not that I know of. 25 Q. How about Mr. Faust? 134 1 A. Well, he was there. He was the original . 2 contact and he was die one in fact who actually invited 3 me. 4 Q. I thought Mr. Greer -5 A. It was someone from Monsanto and I believe he 6 eventually got to Allen either first or second to come 7 and talk about what Monsanto was doing around the 8 plant. Mr. Faust said, Well, we also --1 think not 9 the exact words, but basically the characterization. 10 Mr. Faust said, Well, Dr. Kaley is knowledgeable about 11 PCBs and we would like him to attend too. I don't know 12 if those are the words, but that's the sense of what 13 happened. Mr. Greer did not contact me. I did not 14 talk to Mr. Greer before I showed up at the meeting 15 that night. He contacted the company. 16 Q. The company policy, though, is that if 17 someone's going to attend a public meeting with 18 citizens regarding PCB contamination, that Mr. Kaley 19 needs to be there, isn't it? 20 A. I don't know that that's policy, no. 21 Q. It's not? Leaving yourself to your own 22 devices, that's what you would prefer, that you would 23 be the point man, right? 24 A. Sure, yes, on issues relating to the things I 25 talk about, not on the issues that Mr. Faust is much SCRUNCHTM 135 1 more knowledgeable. 2 Q. He's the remediation person, the cleanup, 3 right? 4 A. Remediation, yes. 5 Q. Do you have any input into remediation, then? 6 A. I review documents. I usually don't have any 7 real substantive input. 8 Q. How about permitting, discharge permits for 9 any type of chemicals that are not PCBs? 10 A. No, that's not an area of my responsibility. 11 Q. What about the ongoing programs, then, to 12 remediate, monitor, or clean up any hazards or 13 hazardous substances at the Monsanto plant in Anniston? 14 A. I'm sorry, what's the question? 15 Q. Do you have any involvement from a remediation 16 standpoint regarding what's going on presently at the 17 Monsanto plant? 18 A. I review the documents. If I have a comment. 19 I give them. I don't necessarily have responsibility 20 for that. I'm certainly aware of what's going on. 21 Q. Would somebody else, then, be the most 22 knowledgeable what federal and state activities are 23 taking place at the West End Landfill and other areas 24 of the Monsanto plant regarding surface water. 25 groundwater discharges? 136 1 A. I mean, if you want to get into the 2 nitty-gritty details of that, yes, somebody else would 3 probably be more knowledgeable. 4 Q. What's the scarce of your knowledge of it sow? 5 A. Discussions with Mr. Faust, reading the 6 documents, reading work plans, reading any variety of 7 communications. 8 Q. So does Mr. Faust, then, have the firsthand 9 knowledge of what remediation is going on at the 10 Monsanto plant better than you? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Would he be the most knowledgeable about the 13 ongoing investigations and activities regarding PCB 14 disposals, landfill storage, and potential discharges 15 from the plant? 16 MR. PECK: Object to the form of the question. 17 It calls for speculation. 18 BY MR. LOWE: 19 Q. Well, you talked to -20 A. Well, he's in charge of the remediation. To 21 the extent that those things that you mentioned are 22 characterized as part of the remediation projects, he 23 would be the most knowledgeable. 24 Q. Well, who's the most knowledgeable, then, 25 about the April 5, 1995, consent order Monsanto entered Pages 133 -136 34 HARTOLDMONO014733 137 1 into with ADEM under the Alabama Water Pollution 2 Control Act? 3 MR. PECK: Object to die form of the question. 4 Calls for speculation. 5 THE WITNESS: I would speculate that Mr. Faust 6 is the most knowledgeable, certainly more than I. 7 BY MR. LOWE: 8 Q. Would that also hold true for the 1996 consent 9 order under AHWMMA, Alabama Hazardous Waste Management 10 and Minimization Act? 11 MR. PECK: Same objection. 12 THE WITNESS: I'm more familiar with that 13 document than the other. 14 BY MR. LOWE: 15 Q. Why are you involved more in that than Mr. 16 Faust is? 17 A. I didn't say "more." I said I am more 18 knowledgeable about that consent order than the 19 previous consent order. I didn't say I was more 20 knowledgeable than Mr. Faust. There are aspects of 21 that which I was more directly involved in implementing 22 and communicating results to the State, so I have more 23 direct involvement in that in terms of that order. 24 Q. How about the 1996 National Pollutant 25 Discharge Elimination System permit, were you involved 138 1 in obtaining or negotiating or talking with the 2 regulatory agencies about that permit? 3 A. No, I reviewed the documents, made some 4 comments. 5 Q. Who was the most knowledgeable about that? 6 MR. PECK: Same objection. Speculation. 7 THE WITNESS: I would presume lhat Mr. Faust 8 is. 9 BY MR. LOWE: 10 Q. Does Monsanto have a permit from any 11 regulatory agency allowing it to discharge PCBs into 12 ditches surrounding the plant? 13 A. Well, I mean, the permit speaks for itself. 14 It permits what it is. Basically the permit requires 15 us to notify die State if our discharges exceed the 16 level -- whatever level is established in that permit. 17 I don't know that it prohibits us from - I've read -- 18 I don't know that it prohibits us from discharging PCBs 19 below the level in that permit. 20 Q. Do you think there's some sort of minimum 21 level of PCBs that can legally be discharged? 22 A. Oh, certainly. 23 Q. What do you think that is? 24 A. It varies on the various sites throughout the 25 country, but certainly at our site, at die levels SCRUNCHTM 139 1 specified in the permit. 2 Q. But if that happens, you're supposed to notify 3 ADEM; is that right? 4 A. That's right. 5 Q. And then ADEM will hopefully take some sort of 6 action to prevent any further discharge; is that right? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. So I think it's logical to assume that you're 9 looking for a zero discharge, isn't it? 10 A. No, we're looking at a discharge at or below 11 that specified limit. 12 Q. Have you had any discharges above the 13 specified limit for the 1996 permits? 14 A. I really don't know. 15 Q. Well, I mean, you're the PCB guy. Wouldn't 16 you know? 17 A. I'm not involved in the direct details of 18 reporting permit compliance for the Anniston plant. 19 No, I wouldn't know and I don't know. 20 Q. In looking at your affidavit, you look like 21 you're supposed to be the man, the most knowledgeable 22 man on everything that's happened at this plant. Is 23 that the truth? 24 A. That's highly unlikely, isn't it? 25 Q. Not in light of your affidavit that you 140 1 submitted to the judge in this case. 2 A. I'm knowledgeable about everything that's in 3 that affidavit. Nowhere in that affidavit does it say 4 that I'm on the permit compliance for our NPDES permit. 5 I'm certainly knowledgeable - if we have a permit, I'm 6 generally knowledgeable about the requirements of that 7 permit. 8 Q. Who told you all this information that went 9 into this affidavit that was recently filed with the 10 Court? 11 A. Most of it I know from my involvement in the 12 thing. Mr. Faust provided dates and information. 13 Q. Did you dictate this off the top of your head. 14 this 21-page affidavit, double spaced, did you dictate 15 all this off the top of your head? 16 A. This particular document is basically an 17 expansion of a previous affidavit I filed in another 18 case. So a lot of it came from that. Some of it I 19 dictated, some of it I wrote. Some of it Mr. Faust and 20 I discussed. Frankly, the attorneys were involved in 21 looking at tiie writing. It was a joint effort to make 22 sure the facts and the dates were correct. 23 Q. A joint effort among whom, besides you ana Mr. 24 Faust? 25 A. Mr. Peck was involved. Pages 137 -140 35 HARTOLDMONO014734 141 1 Q. Is there anything in this affidavit that was 2 told to you immediately before you prepared this 3 affidavit which you incorporated in the affidavit, I 4 mean something that you didn't know? 5 A. No. 6 Q. All this was knowledge that you had before it 7 was printed here? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Tell me the previous case where some or much 10 of this affidavit was used. 11 A. I don't remember the exact -- which case it 12 was. 13 MR. PECK: I think it's your case, Owens 14 Adams. 15 MR. LOWE: Owens Adams? 16 MR. PECK: Yes, versus Monsanto. 17 MR. LOWE: The federal court case? 18 MR. PECK: That case in which you-all were 19 seeking class action. 20 MR. LOWE: Well, part of my late entrance into 21 this matter. 22 MR. PECK: In Judge Pointer's court And then 23 those other people intervened and took over your case. 24 That's why we call it "Owens Adams' because Adams 25 intervened in a case you-all had filed called "Owens." 142 1 Adams is the first of about four or 500 other people. 2 MR. GRAMMAS: Individuals? 3 MR. PECK: Yes. 4 MR. GRAMMAS: That all sued in the case? 5 MR. PECK: Yes, they all jumped into y'all's 6 lawsuit. They apparently liked your form. 7 BY MR. LOWE: 8 Q. This prior affidavit, how long ago was it 9 prepared and submitted? 10 A. I don't know. A couple years. I don't know. 11 MR. PECK: It has been -- it was submitted on 12 the issue of class certification. 13 BY MR. LOWE: 14 Q. I was going to ask you what portions of the 15 affidavit were changed or updated, and I was trying to 16 find another copy of your affidavit. We don't need to 17 mark it, it's already in the case. You can't -18 A. Primarily, it's basically the chronological 19 recitation of material. So generally whatever has 20 happened since die original affidavit was filed has 21 been updated. 22 Q. So the prior affidavit had similar chronology 23 and all you did was add whatever events had taken place 24 after? 25 A. That's basically it. SCRUNCHTM 143 1 Q. Here on Page 21 of your affidavit, which you 2 now have in front of you - and we didn't mark it as an 3 exhibit because it's already been filed with the Court, 4 it states there, the last sentence of Page 21: 5 "Solutia's ambitious and expediting approach to die 6 off-site RFI process will assure that appropriate 7 information is obtained in a timely and comprehensive 8 manner and that necessary and appropriate remedial 9 measures will be proposed to ADEM with confidence that 10 the measures will accomplish the goals of die RFI 11 process.* 12 Is that your language? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. Is that what you and Solutia intend to do in 15 this matter -16 A. Yes. 17 Q. -- from here on out? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. And you're going to be direcdy involved in 20 that? 21 A. As long as I'm employed by Solutia. 22 Q. And do you have any - is there any likelihood 23 you're not going to be employed that you know of? 24 A. Who knows these days. 25 Q. Well, call me if you get terminated. 144 . 1 We don't have any potential time frame for 2 completing this ambitious and expedited approach? 3 A. I think we spoke earlier this morning about 4 what my anticipated time frame might look like over the 5 next year, year and a half. We are frankly moving as 6 quickly as we can to gather the appropriate 7 information. 8 Q. What is die trigger or base amount that you 9 would need for Monsanto to recommend any type of 10 cleanup? 11 MR. PECK: Object to the form of the question. 12 THE WITNESS: There's no such number that I'm 13 aware of. 14 BY MR. LOWE: 15 Q. How are you going to make such an evaluation 16 whether or not there are appropriate remedial measures 17 unless you have some idea of what the base level for 18 cleanup would be? 19 A. Part of the process involves risk assessments 20 and consideration of alternatives, and both of those 21 things are built into that decision. 22 Q. What are risk assessments, from Monsanto's 23 perspective? 24 A. What are risk assessments? 25 Q. Yes. Pages 141 -144 36 HARTOLDMONO014735 145 1 A. Risk assessment is an assessment of the 2 potential for human or environmental effects from a 3 particular compound in a particular situation at a 4 particular level. 5 Q. What are the particular levels you're talking 6 about? 7 A. Until we do our analyses and gather the 8 information, we don't know what the levels are on which 9 to base that assessment. 10 Q. Well, you spent your entire career basically, 11 or at least your recent career, focusing on PCBs, their 12 toxicity, die effects on the environment and humans, 13 haven't you? 14 A. That's correct. 15 Q. Now, surely you have in mind some minimum 16 level that would trigger action to clean it up. 17 A. That's not true. 18 Q. That's not true? 19 A. No. 20 Q. So you're going to spend, what, I think your 21 affidavit said a million and a half bucks -- 22 A. In 1999. 23 Q. - just in 1999, doing some assessments to see 24 what's out there, right? 25 A. That's kind of a flip characterization. 146 1 Q. How would you characterize it? 2 A. It's going to be a full characterization of 3 the Snow Creek/Choccolocco/Lake Logan Martin system to A understand the distribution of PCBs in that system and 5 the potential pathways for PCBs into wildlife and/or 6 humans, and that's the basis for die risk assessment. 7 Q. And then once you get that full ' 8 characterization, what are you going to do with it? 9 A. We're going to determine whether the 10 information we have available to us and the risk 11 assessment suggest that certain remedial activities may 12 be appropriate in certain areas of that system to 13. develop plans to design it and ask for approval and 14 eventually implement those remediation plans. 15 Q. What facts will go into your analysis of 16 whether or not remedial action will be required? 17 A. Lots. 18 Q. Well, let's talk about them. 19 A. Existing levels, potential for future levels, 20 sediment, all the things that we describe take -- 21 looking at. Levels of, you know, suspended sediments, 22 how fast the sediments move, how fast are sediments 23 covered up in the system, where are the PCBs all coming 24 from, what other sources are out there that might be ~ 25 you know, might be contributing, what receptors -- scrunchTM 147 1 dial's the risk assessment term -- receptors are out 2 there that need to be considered in the risk assessment 3 process, then what kind of potential -- if you decide 4 that there's a pathway, for instance, from fish to 5 humans, what activities would be appropriate to break 6 that pathway, whether it's institutional controls like 7 fishing advisories or some other sort of activity. All 8 those things get build into that whole process. That's 9 what the process is all about. 10 Q. Are you telling me a permanent fish advisory 11 would be an acceptable alternative? 12 A. I don't know what "permanent1' means, but 13 certainly a fish advisory, if die fish are above two 14 parts per million, is an institutional control that is 15 in place and may remain in place. 16 Q. Do you think it would be unreasonable for a 17 lakefront properly owner along Choccolocco Creek and 18 its confluence with Logan Martin to believe that a fish 19 advisory saying, Don't eat any of the fish out of here, 20 adversely affects their use and enjoyment of their 21 lakefront property? 22 A. I don't know. 23 MR. PECK: Object to the form of the question. 24 BY MR. LOWE: 25 Q. You don't know? 148 1 A. I think that would depend on the particular 2 property. 3 Q. You don't think someone who likes to fish and 4 eat fish out of die lake, that that doesn't have an 5 adverse effect on their use and enjoyment of the lake? 6 A. I would suspect if that's - somebody's habit 7 is to fish and eat the fish out of that lake and 8 they're now being recommended by the state health 9 department that they don't eat that fish. I'm sure it 10 would have some effect, yes. 11 Q. It wouldn't have a positive effect, would it? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Well, my question was an adverse effect. 14 A. Yes, some individual that meets those 15 criteria, I don't know "adverse," it would not be a 16 positive effect, be a negative effect on that 17 particular person. 18 Q. Now, what has Monsanto done to rule out other 19 possible sources of contamination by PCBs along - from 20 the Monsanto plant all the way down to the lake? 21 A. Well, we haven't done anything to rule them 22 out. We're involved in a process which may help us 23 identify whether there are potential sources, and the 24 ruling in or ruling out will follow that process. 25 Q. When did Monsanto start cleaning up its own Pages 145 -148 37 HARTOLDMONO014736 149 1 property for PCBs? 2 MR. PECK: When or why? 3. BY MR. LOWE: 4 Q. When? 5 A. Well, a number of things have been done over 6 the years. 7 Q. When did you start? 8 A. When we closed die plant in 19 - obviously we 9 started prior to the closing of die plant, but when the 10 plant was closed in 1971, we removed die plant -- 11 Q. Well, the plant wasn't closed; you quit making 12 PCBs, right? 13 A. The PCB process at the plant was closed and 14 dismanded. 15 Q. In 1971? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Here we are in 1998 and it now dawns on you to 18 start looking for other sources of PCBs along the 19 ditches and creeks and the lake; is that right? 20 A. That's part of a RCRA process that we're 21 involved in, that's correct. We addressed that this 22 morning also. 23 Q. And again, I expressed my -- just being my 24 disbelief that it's taking that long for Monsanto to 25 decide that. We need to look and see where all our PCBs 150 1 have gone the last four years. 2 You don't find that suspicious? 3 A. That that's your belief? No. You're a 4 plaintiffs attorney, that would be your belief. 5 Q. No, I'm the people's attorney. I'm on the 6 side of truth and justice. I represent a lot of 7 defendants, too, more defendants than plaintiffs, by 8 the way, other big companies like Monsanto. 9 MR. PECK: Is that supposed to make us put 10 more credibility in your belief? 11 MR. LOWE: Maybe. 12 MR. PECK: I think everybody's paying you. 13 aren't they? 14 MR. LOWE: Some do, some don't. 15 MR. GRAMMAS: That's the goal. It doesn't 16 always happen. 17 BY MR. LOWE: 18 Q. I guess my point in all of this is trying to 19 determine what would make Monsanto do something to 20 clean up this lake? You go through this process. 21 you're talking about spending a million and a half 22 dollars just within the next year to do assessments. 23 Surely you've done some sort of modeling or business 24 planning or just some sort of foresight to see, Well, 25 dam, if this comes out in certain levels to be five SCRUNCHTM 151 1 parts per million or 500 parts per million, we are 2 going to have to do X, Y, and Z. 3 A. That's the process we're involved in right 4 now. 5 Q. All right You're telling me that Monsanto or 6 Solutia has done no projections as to what up side. 7 down side, potential costs, et cetera, may be incurred 8 by this process? 9 A. I don't think we can do that until we 10 understand what the appropriate remedy selection might 11 look like. As far as I know, that's not been done. 12 Q. From your experience, what are the appropriate 13 remedy solutions for PCBs? 14 A. I don't know if -- there are a number that 15 have been selected at different sites. Certainly 16 natural attenuation, natural recovery is a potential 17 that has been effective at sites. There's sediment 18 armoring is a potential that's been used at sites. 19 Dredging has been attempted at sites. There are any 20 number of potential alternatives that need to be 21 evaluated, both, as you say, the up sides and the down . 22 sides of those alternatives, and they all have up sides 23 and down sides. 24 Q. Now, has Monsanto been in involved in any 25 natural recovery efforts, whatever that is? First tell 152 1 me whether they have. . 2 MR. PECK: Where? 3 MR. LOWE: Anywhere in, let's say, the United 4 States, yeah, for PCBs. 5 THE WITNESS: Not that I'm aware of for PCBs. 6 BY MR. LOWE: 7 Q. Okay. Let's talk about set sediment armoring. 8 What does that mean? 9 A. You basically use some sort of a system to put 10 a protective layer over sediments that contain some 11 chemical. 12 Q. And that's usually used on dry land, not in 13 creek beds, is it? 14 A. That's not true. Certainly if sediments -- 15 it's sediment armoring. It can be used in -- 16 Q. Where have you seen that done successfully? 17 A. I don't know that I have. It's an approach 18 that we need to look and see whether it can be done 19 successfully. 20 Q. How much time do you need to do that? 21 A. It's part of this process that's going to roll 22 out over die next year or two. 23 Q. Well, you know the EPA has found that doesn't 24 necessarily work very well with PCBs, it tends to wash 25 away. Pages 149 -152 38 HARTOLDMONO014737 153 1 A. I don't know that, no. 2 Q. Well 3 A. You're much more knowledgeable than I on that. 4 Q. Well, I thought you kept up with PCBs and the 5 EPA and all that kind of stuff. That's your job. 6 A. I do. 7 MR. PECK: Despite die feet he represents a 8 bunch of big companies, don't assume he knows 9 everything. 10 BY MR. LOWE: 11 Q. Have you ever heard lately of any EPA 12 bulletins that polychlorinated biphenyls in sediments 13 in the upper Hudson River are not being buried under 14 fresh sediments but are reentering the river? 15 A. I've read something to that effect. That 16 doesn't have anything to do with sediment armoring if 17 that's what you're trying to relate it to. 18 Q. You're certainly familiar with the Hudson 19 River problem with PCBs from -- let's see, the General 20 Electric or Westinghouse plant? 21 A. General Electric's plant. 22 Q. What about dredging, have you been involved in 23 that at any Monsanto facility? 24 A. For PCBs? No. 25 Q. Have you been involved in natural recovery 154 1 sediment armoring or dredging for any other chemical at 2 Monsanto? 3 A. I'm not involved in it, no. 4 Q. Who's going to, then, make this assessment and 5. come to whatever conclusions are made by Monsanto in 6 the next three years on remediation for Lake Logan 7 Martin? 8 A. The responsible Monsanto people in conjunction 9 with our consultants that we've engaged to help us in 10 this investigation. 11 Q. Who ultimately at Monsanto will make that 12 decision, or Solutia? Which one's it going to come 13 down to? 14 A. I'm sorry, make which decision? What we do? 15 Q. Yeah. 16 A. It will be a team of people involved in 17 remediation aspects of our operations. Mr. Faust and 18 others probably. 19 Q. Who are the others going to be? 20 A. Mr. Faust reports to Mr. Foresman, so I'm sure 21 he'll be involved. Consultants will be involved. ADEM 22 will be most directly involved. Certainly they have 23 the ultimate decision on what remedy's selected. 24 Q. Actually you anticipate recommending to ADEM 25 what is done, don't you? SCRUNCHTM 155 1 A. We will provide a corrective-measure study to 2 ADEM with -- I don't know recommendations, certainly 3 proposals on what we propose to do, yes. 4 Q. ADEM hasn't dictated to you any sort of 5 parameters or guidelines for doing this undertaking 6 that you've assumed, have they? 7 A. There are general parameters on how you do 8 this RCRA off-site investigation process. 9 Q. There are? Where are those, the CFR? 10 A. I don't know specifically. 11 Q. Who knows all this stuff? 12 A. I suppose the regulators do. 13 Q. I mean, you're telling me you're doing all 14 these broad programs, you filed a 22-page affidavit. 15 and you're kind of vague on the specifics. Now, what 16 are the parameters for doing this broad-based 17 examination? 18 A. I'm sure whatever the RCRA authority for the 19 state of Alabama is. 20 Q. You think that there are guidelines for 21 Monsanto to determine whether or not they ought to 22 clean up Lake Logan Martin or Choccolocco Creek? 23 A. I think -- I don't know, but I think that 24 there are probably guidelines on the appropriate steps 25 to take in a RCRA investigation - 156 1 Q. Is that how you -- 2 A. -- and preparation for a corrective-measure 3 study. 4 Q. Is that how you have looked at preparing the 5 scope of tins three-year examination you're going to 6 undertake? 7 ! A. I'm sure those kinds of considerations were 8 considered. 9 Q. But you're going to - 10 A. To a large extent, we're relying on Mr. 11 Brown's expertise in doing these kinds of 12 investigations to provide information, help us make 13 those correct decisions. 14 Q. Has Mr. Brown performed any sort of cleanup 15 assessments for Monsanto in any other matters? 16 A. Not that I'm aware of. 17 Q. How did you come upon Mr. Brown to hire him, 18 then? 19 A. He's a well-known person in the consulting 20 area on these particular kinds of matters. 21 Q. Is it your expectation that Mr. Brown is geing 22 to come up with some sort of assessment and then he's 23 going to confer with you and Mr. Faust and possibly Mr. 24 Foresman who will all together come up with some sort 25 of recommendation to make to ADEM as to whether or not Pages 153 -156 39 HARTOLDMONO014738 157 1 any sort of cleanup should be done; is that your goal? 2 A. I would say that's an oversimplification, but 3 I think that's basically a fair characterization, yes. 4 Q. If PCBs are a human - and a hazard to nature 5 and if Monsanto put diem in this ecosystem, shouldn't 6 they be required to take them out? 7 A. No, I don't believe that that necessarily is 8 die correct approach. I think we should be doing what 9 we're doing, and that is trying to understand the 10 system, trying to understand the risk that that system 11 poses or potentially posts, and try to design 12 appropriate actions to address those risks. 13 Q. I want to know at what point you're going to 14 take some action to eliminate risks. 15 A. I told you that that's part of the outcome of 16 this process. 17 Q. So if you dump something on somebody's 18 property, even if it doesn't cause a health hazard, do 19 you think you have die right to leave it there? 20 A. I don't think that's a fair characterization 21 of this situation. 22 Q. Well, let's look at it this way: Has your 23 garbage can ever blown over and the contents gone into 24 your neighbor's yard? 25 A. No. 158 1 Q. Never? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Do you live in a house? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. That's never happened? 6 A. No. 7 Q. How about anything going into your neighbor's 8 yard? How about if theirs blew over into yours, do you 9 think that they ought to come pick it up? 10 A. I don't know. 11 Q. So you don't have any idea at what sediment 12 levels you would deem it appropriate to dredge, cover 13 up, or do anything for PCBs in this waterway? 14 A. Not at this point, no. 15 Q. You don't even think you should try to get it 16 to a level -- the PCB content to a level where you can 17 eliminate die fish advisory? 18 A. I think that would be the ultimate goal of our 19 remediation proposals would be to somehow figure out 20 what is the best way to accelerate the process to get 21 those fish below two parts per million, yes, I do think 22 that, if, in fact, the ultimate determination is that 23 we have the responsibility for the PCBs that are 24 causing that fish advisory to begin with. 25 Q. You're still denying that. You're not -- SCRUNCHTM 159 1 A. I'm not denying that, but I'm not willing to 2 admit that, no. 3 Q. You're not willing to admit -- we went through 4 this, but one more time: You're not willing to admit. 5 on behalf of Monsanto, that Monsanto is a probable 6 source for the PCBs in Choceolocco Creek and Lake Logan 7 Martin? 8 A. I will admit that Monsanto is a potential 9 source for some of those PCBs, but there are any number 10 of -- we don't know. There are a number of other 11 potential sources. 12 Q. Who are the other potential sources? 13 A. I don't know. We don't know yet, but there's 14 lots of users of PCBs. Maybe there's a PCB recycler in 15 Pell City or something, I don't know. 16 Q. You know there's not. 17 A. Do I? 18 Q. You should. 19 MR. PECK: Look. See if you can find one. 20 BY MR. LOWE: 21 Q. You should. 22 A. Okay. 23 MR. PECK: You're saying there's not? 24 MR. LOWE: Who is it? 25 MR. PECK: You're saying there's not? 160 1 MR. LOWE: I don't know. He's the PCB expert. 2 THE WITNESS: That's what we don't know. 3 Maybe there is. That's part of why we need to do these 4 studies to see if there are levels; if there are 5 levels, do they make sense that Monsanto's one of the 6 sources or if somebody else is the source. That's why 7 the study has to be done. 8 BY MR. LOWE: 9 Q. Where's the other source of PCBs? Where do 10 you suspect they are? 11 A. I told you, I don't know the answer to that. 12 Q. Where would these people have gotten the PCBs 13 that they may or may not presently have on their 14 property? 15 A. I don't know the answer to that. 16 Q. Of course not. 17 We got off the subject a little bit, and that 18 was who was going to make the decision as to whether or 19 not, for example, Monsanto decided to clean up the lake 20 to a point at least where the fish wouldn't have -- or 21 test for two parts per million and you can do away with 22 the fish advisory. Who's going to ultimately make that 23 decision? 24 A. Well -- 25 MR. PECK: Monsanto. Pages 157 - 160 40 HARTOLDMONO014739 161 1 MR. LOWE: Or Solutia. 2 THE WITNESS: Are you asking who at Solutia's 3 going to make that ultimate decision or, you know, is 4 it Solutia or ADEM? I think those are different 5 questions. 6 BY MR. LOWE: 7 Q. Let's leave ADEM out of it. 8 A. I think ADEM's going to be a big part of that 9 decision of what's appropriate and who's responsible 10 for doing what's appropriate. 11 Q. Well, you're going to make a proposal to ADEM, 12 they're not going to make a proposal to you Erst? 13 A. That's correct. 14 Q. Who's going to ultimately decide what proposal 15 is made to ADEM? 16 A. There will be a group of people, primarily 17 people we talked about: Mr. Faust, I'm sure I'll be 18 involved, the consultants that are involved, our 19 management. A lot of people. 20 Q. I've got to believe that someone with die 21 authority to sign off on spending tens of millions of 22 dollars, if not more, has to make that decision. Is 23 that the way it works? 24 A. Didn't I say that Monsanto or Solutia 25 management, a team -- 162 1 Q. Yeah, but I want to know who they are. Do 2 they have names? faces? 3 A. Mike Foresman is both Allen and my supervisor. 4 Q. And he has the authority within Solutia? 5 A. I believe so, and he's the director of 6 remediation. I believe he has the authority to approve 7 those expenditures, yes. 8 Q. Director of remediation? 9 A. Something like that, or whatever I said this 10 morning. That's probably not what l said this morning 11 when I gave you name and title before. 12 Q. He said he was here in St Louis this morning. 13 right? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Is that right? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. How long has he worked for Solutia; since the 18 spinoff, I suppose? 19 A. Yes, that's correct. 20 Q. Did he work for Monsanto before that? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. What did he do for Monsanto? 23 A. Same thing, in recent times. I don't know 24 exactly what he did prior to that responsibility. 25 Q. And what's Mr. Foresman's first name? SCRUNCHTM 163 1 A. Michael. 2 Q. What's his middle initial, or does he have an 3 initial before Michael? 4 A. I think it's R., but I'm not all that 5 positive. 6 Q. And Foresman is spelled F-O-R-E-S-M-A-N? 7 A. That's correct. 8 Q. Did he ever work at the Anniston plant? 9 A. I don't know. 10 Q. How long has he been with Monsanto? 11 A. I don't know. 12 Q. Is he older than you? 13 A. About die same age. 14 Q. What sort of degrees and education does he 15 have? 16 A. He's an engineer. I don't know. I think he's 17 a master's degree engineer. 18 Q. Chemical engineer, do you think? 19 A. I don't know. 20 Q. Do you believe he has some familiarity, then. 21 with this lawsuit and this proposal to investigate and 22 perhaps remediate Choccolocco Creek and Lake Logan 23 Martin? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Has he been directly involved in that process. 164 1 to your knowledge? 2 A. He's been involved as the person to whom Mr. 3 Faust and I report. 4 Q. How often do you report to him? 5 A. What do you mean by "report to him"? I was 6 using that in a more generic term than an activity. 7 Q. Certainly--he's a manager--at least every 8 six months he wants to know what's going on with his 9 underlings, doesn't he? How often do you tell him 10 what's going on in the Anniston situation? 11 A. When I see him. 12 Q. Well, how often is that? 13 A. Weekly, biweekly. Sometimes less. 14 Q. When was the last time you talked to him about 15 it? 16 A. I don't know. I suppose within the last two 17 or three weeks. I don't have a specific recollection. 18 Q. Is your office in die same building as his? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. What proximity, same floor? 21 A. Yes. 22. Q. How many steps away is his office from yours? 23 A. I have no idea. We're at opposite ends of the 24 building, whatever that means. 25 Q. It doesn't mean anything to me since I've Pages 161 -164 41 HARTOLDMONO014740 165 1 never been to your building. 2 A. I don't know. I obviously don't count my 3 steps. 1 can't stand up and wave at him, if that's 4 what you mean. 5 Q. You use die same elevator, I suppose, to get 6 to your offices? 7 A. No. 8 Q. No? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Does he even know you're here today? 11 A. I don't know. 12 Q. Did you talk to him about having to give 13 testimony in this case? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Do you expect to have to report to him 16 afterwards? 17 A. No. 18 Q. No? You're not going to tell him this 19 happened? You don't anticipate reporting back to ~ 20 A. No. 21 MR. PECK: Telling him you're a bunch of 22 assholes. 23 MR. LOWE: I hope so. 24 THE WITNESS: It may never come up in 25 conversation, but the first thing I'm going to do 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 ' 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 166 Tuesday morning is walk into his office and report what happened. BY MR. LOWE: Q. You're making it sound like he doesn't care. Surely he does. . A. Certainly he cares, but he trusts me to carry out the duties of my responsibilities in the appropriate manner. Q. Have you ever seen the documents called "Defenses of Aroclor"? A. I may have. That name doesn't necessarily ring a bell. Q. You know, the one that says. Our position is deny, deny, deny? 1 A. If you've got a document like that, I'd like to see it. MR. PECK: Object to the form of the question. If you want to ask about a document, show him. MR. LOWE: I'm just asking if he's ever seen it. BY MR. LOWE: Q. How about the one that says. Delay, delay. delay? MR. PECK: Same objection. If you want to ask him about a document, show him die document. If you SCRUNCHTM 167 1 want to ask him about a document, show him the 2 document. 3 MR. LOWE: You have permission to skip the 4 objections. If you would like to not put those on tire 5 record. 6 MR. GRAMMAS: That's obviously a joke. 7 MR. LOWE: No one's laughing except me. 8 BY MR. LOWE: 9 Q. Do you own any lakefront property? Do you? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Ever have? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Do you have any family members who do? 14 A. Not that I know of. 15 Q. Do you ever go visit them or friends that have 16 lakefront property? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Would you knowingly eat any fish that you knew 19 contained two parts per million or greater PCBs? 20 A. Probably. I don't know. 21 Q. You probably would? You don't have a problem 22 with -- 23 A. No. 24 Q. Because the literature you rely on convinces 25 you that it's not a problem; is that right? 168 1 A. Yeah, largely. 2 Q. Do you think that there should be a fish 3 advisory for this Lake Logan Martin, then? 4 A. Yeah, and I think the Alabama Department of 5 Public Health has reacted appropriately to the 6 detection of levels of PCBs in those fish, yes. 7 Q. But it wouldn't bother you to go out there and 8 fish and eat the fish, then? 9 A. Not particularly, no. 10 Q. Are you familiar with any documents where 11 Monsanto officials are conferring with Alabama 12 officials regarding keeping the presence of PCBs quiet; 13 that is, the discharge of PCBs? 14 A. Do you have a specific document in mind? 15 Q. I'm just asking if you're familiar with that? 16 MR. PECK: I object to the form of the 17 question. If you have a document, show it to him? 18 BY MR. LOWE: 19 Q. Do you have any knowledge whatsoever, in your 20 review of the PCB history of Monsanto, that Monsanto 21 officials conspired with Alabama officials to keep the 22 presence of PCBs in rivers and streams quiet? 23 A. No. Monsanto wouldn't conspire to do anything 24 like that. 25 Q. They wouldn't do that? Would that offend you Pages 165 -168 42 HARTOLDMONO014741 169 1 if they did that? 2 A. If they conspired? Yes. 3 . Q. Maybe that's a bad word in today's environment 4 with our President and other people. Let's say if they 5 just said -- if Monsanto said. This would be bad if 6 this gets out, let's not let it out. And the Alabama 7 people agreed. If the public found out about this, it 8 wouldn't be good for us. Do you think that's the right 9 thing to do? 10 A. I think there are appropriate circumstances 11 under which, as you begin to understand and develop 12 information about a system, that it may be appropriate 13 to understand it fully before you make public 14 pronouncements about it. 15 Q. Do you think, having the knowledge in the 16 early '70s and before that, even, that PCBs were a 17 potential hazard to the environment, that Monsanto 18 should have continued to release those to the 19 environment? 20 A. I think Monsanto took appropriate actions to 21 reduce their releases when they became aware of the 22 presence in the environment. 23 Q. Well, they're still leaking out of there 24 today, aren't they? 25 A. I don't know the answer to that, whether 170 1 "leaking's" a fair characterization. 2 Q. Well, there's still some storm water 3 discharge, isn't there, that's being monitored and 4 detected recently amounts of PCBs running off that 5 property? 6 MR. PECK: At the plant; is that what you're 7 asking? 8 BY MR. LOWE: 9 Q. Yeah, at the plant. 10 A. I don't know what you mean by "recently. ' 11 Q. Let's say in the last two years. 12 A. In the last two years, yeah, there have been 13 part-per-billion levels in storm water at some point, 14 discharge. 15 Q. And then it goes necessarily into creeks 16 around the plant, into Snow Creek, and which of course 17 we know where that flows, right, that's where the storm 18 water goes? 19 A. That doesn't mean that that's where those 20 trace levels of PCBs end up. 21 Q. No, my only point is that in the last two 22 years, there are discharges that have been detected? 23 A. I don't know that specifically, but that's 24 certainly a potential in my understanding. As we've 25 worked -- since -- excuse me, the remediation's been SCRUNCHTM 171 1 going on over the past two years, so I suspect that's 2 probably true. 3 Q. If Monsanto is of the belief that they needed 4 to stop the runoff, why didn't they make some effort to 5 remove entirely the PCBs that are there today on the 6 property in Anniston; for example, landfills perhaps 7 under the Aroclor -- the former Aroclor facility, 8 production facility? 9 A. Because the decision was made that die most 10 appropriate approach to managing and controlling the 11 PCBs in those soils was to leave them in place and 12 insulate them from the forces that could potentially 13 cause migration. 14 - Q. Were you involved in that decision-making 15 process whether to move them, cap them? 16 A. I would say peripherally, yeah. 17 Q. Was money one of the considerations, the cost 18 in removing the PCBs from the landfill? 19 A. No. They were done as interim measures. It 20 was a measure that could be taken quickly to respond to 21 a situation as we went through the rest of the RFI 22 process. 23 Q. An interim measure? Leaving them there was an 24 interim measure? ' 25 A. Certainly. It's being done in interim 172 1 measures, certainly. . 2 Q. Well, then, what ultimately is planned for 3 these landfills? 4 A. After the RFI process continues to work, there 5 will be a corrective-measure study proposed to the 6 State and the ultimate decision will be made. 7 Q. The corrective measure study. That again is 8 going to be another study prepared by Monsanto 9 recommending to ADEM, or whatever state agency there 10 may be in the next millennium governing these things, 11 recommending to that agency what should be done; is 12 that what you're telling me? 13 A. That's what the RCRA process requires, yes. 14 Q. Okay. So you're not saying -- although you're 15 sort of inferring - that these PCBs may someday be 16 removed? 17 A. No, I'm not inferring anything. You may be 18 reading me as implying that, but -- 19 Q. I am. 20 A. - I'm not implying that. I think certainly 21 one of the considerations for the corrective measure 22 will be to leave them in place -- 23 Q. Because of the cost? 24 A. - with the institution of controls. 25 Q. Because of the cost? Pages 169 -172 43 HARTOLDMONO014742 173 1 A. The cost is -- there are lots of 2 considerations. Cost is among them. 3 Q. Have you considered the cost before in 4 removing these PCBs from the landfill, before today? 5 A. I don't know that cost has been a specific 6 consideration in the decisions we've made today. 7 Q. So far, you haven't even had to consider it 8 because you just don't want to do it. You're making 9 all the recommendations to ADEM; is that right? 10 MR. PECK: Object to the form of the question. 11 He hasn't considered the cost? He hadn't considered 12 the $30 million in cost that's been studied? 13 BY MR. LOWE: 14 Q. Well, they haven't removed anything from the 15 landfills, have you? 16 MR. PECK: That $30 million in interim 17 measures, do you think that's consideration of costs? 18 It's fairly obvious. Go ahead. I'm sorry. 19 MR. LOWE: Thanks, Adam. 20 BY MR. LOWE: 21 Q. Do you agree with Adam? He was testifying for 22 you. 23 A. I don't know whether he's answering your 24 question. 25 Q. I don't know what he's talking about either. 174 1 but you and I can keep talking. 2 A. What's your question? 3 Q. My question is: Have you considered, up to 4 this day, the cost of removing the PCBs from the 5 landfill? I'm not talking about tearing down houses or 6 putting dirt over PCBs that are under these bouses, I'm 7 talking about digging out the thousands of pounds of 8 PCBs or tons of PCBs that have been dumped in there 9 over the past 40 years. 10 MR. PECK: And take them where? 11 MR. LOWE: Somewhere else. Put them on a 12 barge in the Antarctic, I don't know, whatever people 13 do with hazardous waste. 14 THE WITNESS: Are you asking me if we 15 estimated what the cost of that would be? 16 BY MR. LOWE: 17 Q. Yes, exactly. 18 A. Never considered it. 19 Q. Never considered it? 20 A. Not that I know of. 21 Q. But you think that at some point in the future 22 that's the goal, though, to consider that, or is it 23 always -- 24 A. I don't know whether that will be part of the 25 consideration or not. SCRUNCHTM 175 1 Q. Well, reasonably, though, you're just going 2 to -- you intend to leave them there? 3 A. I think that would be one of the strong 4 options that we would like to have considered as the 5 final measure, yes, with the institutional controls, 6 yes. 7 Q. In an unlined, unprotected landfill? 8 A. It's protected. It has got fabric cover and 9 soil cover on top of it. 10 Q. On top? 11 A. It's well protected. 12 Q. So you're absolutely certain, as a Ph.D. 13 chemist, that there can't be any leachate in those 14 landfills that's going to leach into the underground 15 water table? 16 A. We have monitoring wells in place. They will 17 continue to be monitored. That's part of the 18 institutional controls that are part of that process. 19 Q. That's right. That's why they're monitoring 20 it so that when -- if it does happen, you'll know it. 21 It doesn't prevent it from happening, it just lets you 22 know that it happened. Isn't that what a monitor is? 23 MR. PECK: Object to the form of the question. 24 This has all been discussed this morning. Go ahead. 25 THE WITNESS: If die monitoring well suggests 176 1 further action is necessary, those actions will be 2 taken. I'm sure. . 3 BY MR. LOWE: 4 Q. But my question that led into that was: You 5 can't say here, to a scientific certainty, that 6 groundwater won't be contaminated by these landfills 7 that contain PCBs, can you? 8 A. Can come pretty close. 9 Q. You can? 10 A. You can never say anything's totally 11 impossible, but I believe our controls of taking the 12 necessary measures will keep PCBs from entering the 13 groundwater. I don't think they would have entered the 14 groundwater anyway because that is not a typical 15 environmental behavior of PCBs. They adhere strongly 16 to the sediments and typically are not associated with 17 groundwater. 18 Q. Okay. So you're a geologist now too? 19 A. No, I'm an analytical chemist who has read a 20 lot about PCBs and understands their physical 21 properties and environmental properties. 22 Q. I read Sports Illustrated, but I'm not going 23 to hit any home runs in a major league ballpark. 24 either. 25 A. Sorry. Pages 173 - 176 44 HARTOLDMONO014743 177 1 Q. But you read a lot of stuff and you have a lot 2 of opinions, so how can you tell me that you're certain 3 that this stuff, this PCB, this hazardous material, 4 banned by the U.S. government isn't going to get into 5 the groundwater in Anniston, Alabama? 6 A. I just did. 7 Q. You told me that's your opinion. 8 A. It's based on my understanding of the nature 9 and chemistry and characteristics of PCBs, that's true. 10 Q. Did you confer with the Alabama Department of 11 Health before the fish consumption advisory was posted? 12 Did you talk to them? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Did they call you and say, We're about to do 15 this? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Did they ask for any information from you? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Did they call anybody, to your knowledge, at 20 Monsanto and Solutia and discuss it before this issue? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Did you call the Alabama Department of Public 23 Health or go see anyone at the department after the 24 advisory was issued to talk about the advisory? 25 A. No. 178 1 Q. Why not? You're the PR man. 2 A. They were carrying out their duty. 3 MR. PECK: Object to the form of the question. 4 THE WITNESS: I'm not a PR man, but there was 5 no reason to do that. They were carrying out what they 6 felt was an appropriate response to the detection of 7 PCBs in fish in -- I don't know which one that is, but 8 assuming it's the Choccolocco Creek - in the 9 Choccolocco Creek 10 BY MR. LOWE: 11 Q. Well, you're the man that the company refers 12 inquiries about PCBs, aren't you? If someone calls 13 asking about PCBs, you're the one that the call is 14 directed to, aren't you? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. So you're not the public relations or the 17 point person for PCBs for Monsanto/Solutia? 18 A. I may be the point person. I'm not a PR 19 person. 20 Q. Do you know -- if you look at those 21 nonconsumption advisories that are posted all along 22 Choccolocco Creek and in the lake -- have you looked,at 23 those? 24 A. I've seen those. 25 Q. When you've driven by --1 guess when you went SCRUNCHTM 179 1 down to look at die creek, you probably saw one, didn't 2 you? 3 A. Right. 4 Q. Did you notice it had a telephone number on 5 there, an 800 number? That written thing in front of 6 you doesn't have it, though. 7 A. I don't recall that specifically. 8 Q. So you've never called that number or had 9 anyone call it for you? 10 A. No. 11 Q. So would you be surprised that when you called 12 that number and asked diem where those PCBs come from. 13 they say "Monsanto"? 14 MR. PECK: Object to the form of the question. 15 It's not an appropriate question. 16 BY MR. LOWE: 17 Q. That wouldn't surprise you that that's what 18 the Alabama Department of Public Health is advising? 19 A. I don't know. If that's your 800 number, it 20 wouldn't surprise me if that's what they're told. I 21 don't know whose -- I don't know where the 800 number's 22 going. I don't know who's telling who what. 23 Q. Well, in your job with Solutia, you contact 24 the Alabama Department of Public Health and ADEM 25 regarding what's going on at die Monsanto plant, don't 180 1 you? I mean, that's one of your jobs. 2 A. We have-- 3 Q. You're die liaison between the two, aren't 4 you? ` 5 A. We've done that, yes. 6 Q. Yeah. So, in talking with the Alabama 7 Department of Public Health, have you exchanged any 8 information about the sources of PCBs in these areas . 9 that are mentioned in the consumption advisory? 10 A. Other than what's reported in their health 11 consultations, their health documents, I don't know 12 that we've discussed sources. 13 Q. Well, one of your points in having ongoing 14 discussions with the Alabama Department of Public 15 Health and ADEM is to influence those agencies with 16 regard to what actions they take against your company, 17 aren't they? 18 A. That's absolutely incorrect. 19 Q. Absolutely incorrect? 20 A. That is absolutely incorrect. 21 Q. You don't attempt to suggest to them what 22 efforts should be made to remediate your property? 23 A. We propose to them what efforts we believe are 24 appropriate. They have the knowledge and abilities to 25 make decisions on their own. Pages 177 -180 45 HARTOLDMONO014744 181 1 Q. Who do you deal with at ADEM? 2 A. I think we answered that question this 3 morning. Primarily Steve Cobb. 4 Q. Steve Cobb. How long has he been there that 5 you've dealt with him? 6 A. I have no idea. 7 Q. Has he been there the whole time you've been 8 dealing with ADEM? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. The Department of Public Health, I know they 11 changed directors. Who do you deal with there now? 12 A. Well, nobody really. Dr. Hughes is gone. 13 Q. Where did he go? 14 A. Florida. 15 Q. Have you talked to him recently? 16 A. No. 17 Q. How about the present director or acting 18 director, you haven't talked with him recently? 19 A. He was the state toxicologist, and as far as I 20 know, there is no state toxicologist. I don't know 21 that I've ever talked to the director or acting 22 director of ADPH. 23 Q. The Alabama Department of Public Health, as I 24 said, when you call the 800 number on the fish advisory 25 signs, say that Monsanto is the source of PCBs. Has 182 1 anyone in your company tried to, I guess for lack of a 2 better term, make them stop saying that? 3 MR. PECK: Object to the form of the question. 4 It's an improper question. It assumes facts not in 5 evidence. Contains hearsay. He doesn't even know they 6 were doing it. 7 So go ahead, if you can answer that question. 8 THE WITNESS: I was going to say, not that I'm 9 aware of. 10 (PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT NO. 2 WAS FIRST DULY 11 MARKED, RECEIVED AND MADE A PART OF THE RECORD.) 12 BY MR. LOWE: 13 Q. Please look at what we marked as Kaley Exhibit 14 2, please. Is that die report -- is that the study you 15 talked about this morning that you performed on rats 16 regarding PCBs? 17 A. Well, the analytical work, I did the 18 analytical work on some of it, yes. 19 Q. It lists -- it says down at the bottom 20 copyright 1976. Is that about when this was performed? 21 I assume the testing was done before '76. 22 A. That's correct. 23 Q. How long before? 24 A. A year or two. 25 Q. And then you reviewed the test results and SCRUNCHTM .... 183 1 came up with this report. Exhibit 2; is that correct? 2 A. Well, I participated in Some of the analytical 3 work and reviewed that work. 4 Q. Okay. In addition to your name at the top 5 under the heading, it says Orville Hicks, William Mees, 6 M-E-E-S, E. Scott Tucker, James P. M-I-E-U-R-E, 7 Frederick R. Johannsen, with an E-N. Who are those 8 people? And George L-E-V-I-N-S-K-A-S. It all says 9 `Monsanto Company.* Were those all Monsanto employees 10 at that time? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. How many of these gendeman were MD's? 13 A. MD's? 14 Q. Medical doctors, for us people in Alabama. 15 A. None that I know of. 16 Q. None? 17 A. None that I know of. 18 Q. Did they all work - what department did these 19 guys work in for Monsanto? 20 A. Somewhere in the analytical division, 21 somewhere in toxicology. 22 Q. At this point in time in the early 1970s, did 23 Monsanto normally have members of their analytical 24 department performing tests on rats to see what effects 25 their various chemicals manufactured by Monsanto would 184 1 have on animals? 2 A. I could give you a smart answer, but I won't. 3 Q. Come on. You owe me one. You can. 4 A. No. No. ' 5 Q. They didn't? 6 A. No, nor did they here. 7 Q. What was this on? Maybe I misread it. 8 A. I think we discussed this this morning, that 9 Monsanto commissioned a laboratory. Here it says, on 10 die second page, Younger Laboratories, St. Louis, 11 Missouri. "Feeding, sacrifice, and tissue excision 12 were carried out Younger Laboratories, Inc., St. Louis, 13 Missouri." 14 So, die toxicology department commissioned 15 that study. The tissues that were excised were 16 returned to Monsanto for analysis. That's what the 17 analytical chemists were doing. The analytical 18 chemists then did these analyses, compiled the data, 19 worked with the toxicology people then to draft this 20 paper. 21 Q. Well, my question was: For how many other 22 chemicals was Monsanto doing these types of tests? 23 A. Oh, lots. 24 Q. They regularly did this for all of their 25 chemicals, then? Pages 181 - 184 46 HARTOLDMONO014745 185 1 A. I wouldn't say all, but they regularly did it 2 for chemicals, absolutely yes. 3 Q. Common practice, then, to test the effects on 4 animals, rats? 5 A. Depending on the chemical and the 6 toxicological profile of that chemical, it may be a 7 different test, but certainly, yes. 8 Q. And this is early 1970s. This is basically 9 when you got your start with Monsanto, right? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. That's the kind of thing you were doing. 12 testing the effects of chemicals, in this instance. 13 mice? 14 A. I wasn't. I was an analytical chemist 15 performing analyses in an analytical chemistry lab. 16 Q. Okay. I think you answered this this morning, 17 but after performing the analysis in Exhibit 2, have 18 you ever engaged in any similar endeavor for PCBs after 19 that in 1976? 20 A. We continue to do a variety of PCB analyses. 21 Q. You. You do? 22 A. I continue to do a variety of PCB analyses. 23 Q. Where you do a written report on tissue 24 samples? 25 A. I don't know whether I specifically did that 186 1 or not. Certainly possible. Obviously not published. 2 but there may be internal reports. I don't recall 3 specifically. 4 Q. What's the last internal report that you 5 recall preparing regarding PCBs? 6 A. I don't remember. 7 Q. Well, you do that routinely or is it so 8 routine that you just can't remember them or has it 9 been so long you can't remember? 10 A. Well, it was 20 years ago and there were a lot 11 of analytical studies done. Some were written up, some 12 weren't written up. 13 Q. Well, that's my point. Over -- since 20 years 14 ago, how often do you do this? 15 A. I'm sorry, since 20 years? 16 Q. Have you done it since 1976? 17 A. Have I done PCB analyses since 1976? 18 Q. And written reports about it. 19 A. And published reports or just written? 20 Q. No, just written reports. 21 A. I'm sure I have, yes. 22 Q. All right. When was the last time you did 23 that? 24 A. I went from the chemical company laboratory to 25 the corporate laboratory about 1980, so it would have SCRUNCHTM 187 1 been somewhere around that time frame. 2 Q. And what was the nature of that study test? 3 A. Just doing analytical chemistry on samples to 4 determine their PCB content. 5 Q. What kind of samples were they? Were they rat 6 tissues? sediment? birds? What? 7 A. It could have been any number of things. It 8 could have been rat tissues, it could have been 9 sediments, it could have been water, it could have been 10 products. A number of things. 11 Q. And you're testifying today that you've done 12 testing on all those types of samples? 13 A. Certainly. Analytical chemistry testing. 14 certainly. 15 Q. And the last time, though, was when? 16 A. 1980 time frame, something like that. 17 Q. And these were all tests and reports that 18 were, I guess, filed away with Monsanto for some 19 particular purpose? 20 A. To the extent reports were written, yeah. 21 Q. So why were you doing these tests? 22 A. There were lots of questions around PCBs and 23 regulations that needed to be complied with and we were 24 testing to check compliance with regulations. There 25 were lots of reasons for doing it. 188 1 Q. What was die name of that department that you 2 worked in for Monsanto at that point in time? 3 A. Let's see, applied sciences. 4 Q. And who was the head of that department at 5 that point in time? 6 MR. PECK: What time frame? 7 MR. LOWE: He's talking about the '80s. 8 MR. PECK: He's talking about the '80s? 9 MR. LOWE: Oh, to'80? 10 MR. PECK: I don't know. 11 BY MR. LOWE: 12 Q. See, if he doesn't know I don't know. 13 A. I was answering --1 was answering for the 14 time frame for which this report was prepared. That's 15 what I'm answering. 16 Q. I'm talking about the last time you did any 17 sort of analysis as a chemist for Monsanto where you 18 actually examined samples and made determinations and 19 wrote a report. 20 A. Okay. 21 Q. When was that? When was that? 22 A. Around 1980, give or take a couple years. 23 MR. LOWE: That's what I got, Adam, 1980. 24 BY MR. LOWE: 25 Q. So in 1980 you worked in the applied sciences Pages 185 -188 47 HARTOLDMONO014746 189 1 department? 2 A. No. I worked in applied sciences department 3. when I did this work, which is what 1 thought what you 4 were addressed. 5 Q. All right. Where did you work in 1980? 6 A. In environmental sciences. 7 Q. And who was the head of that department? 8 A. Jim Mieure, M-I-E-U-R-E. 9 Q. Is he still with Monsanto? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. What's his position now. They're the same 12 company. 13 A. They're not die same company. 14 MR. PECK: Not now. 15 THE WITNESS: They're totally different 16 companies. He's, like, die manager of product 17 stewardship or something, I don't know. That's more a 18 function than a tide. 19 BY MR. LOWE: 20 Q. But he's here in St. Louis? 21 A. Yes, he is. 22 (PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT NO. 3 WAS FIRST DULY 23 MARKED, RECEIVED AND MADE A PART OF THE RECORD.) 24 BY MR. LOWE: 25 Q. Let's look at Kaley Exhibit 3. Do you 190 1 recognize that? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Do you recall talking to a reporter of the 4 Talladega Daily Home in August of 1988? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Where did this conversation take place? 7 A. In the offices of Mr. Church. 8 Q. What were you doing in Anniston in August of 9 1998? 10 A. I wasn't in Anniston. 11 Q. I mean, Pell City, excuse me. 12 A. I was present at a hearing in Judge Austin's 13 court. 14 Q. Were you wearing a disguise? I don't remember 15 seeing you there. You must have been in the back. 16 A. I was there. 17 Q. Gosh. What was your purpose for attending 18 that hearing? 19 A. The attorneys felt there was a potential that 20 Judge Austin might have questions regarding information 21 in my affidavit. 22 Q. So you were prepared that day to testify; is 23 that correct? 24 A. Well, I was there. I was willing to answer 25 question. I wasn't prepared to testify in the sense of SCRUNCHTM 191 1 preparing a witness. I was there. I was prepared to 2 answer questions, sure. 3 Q. What was the purpose for speaking with the 4 reporter in Mr. Church's office? Was that prearranged 5 or did she just happen to show up? 6 A. No, she -7 MR. PECK: I'm going to -- I can tell you. 8 MR. LOWE: I don't want you to, Adam. 9 MR. PECK: She showed up. 10 MR. LOWE: You don't have to say that. Thank 11 you. 12 MR. PECK: You don't want to know the answer, 13 then. 14 MR. LOWE: I want to know his answer. If he 15 said, I don't know, then that would have been 16 appropriate for you to inteiject. 17 THE WITNESS: I know in the roughest of terms. 18 BY MR. LOWE: 19 Q. Okay. What are they? 20 A. She was observed talking to one of the 21 attorneys for the other side, and our counsel felt it 22 might be useful to talk to someone from our side, and I 23 happened to be in town and they made arrangements for 24 that conversation to occur. 25 MR. PECK: That's what I would have said. 192 1 MR. GRAMMAS: That's not real rough. . 2 BY MR. LOWE: . 3 Q. Did you review this article after it appeared 4 in the Talladega paper, or have you seen it before 5 today? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. How did you come to obtain it the first time? 8 A. It was foxed to me. 9 Q. By who? 10 A. I don't know. It could have been Mr. Faust, 11 it could have been Mr. Peck. I don't know. 12 Q. Did you leave immediately after this hearing 13 in Pell City or did you go back to the plant? 14 A. No, I had another commitment. I left. 15 Q. Where did you go? 16 A. Where did I go? That's a good question. 17 Maybe Philadelphia. 18 Q. I mean in the area. 19 A. Oh, where did I go? I went back to the 20 airport. I went and had lunch, I think, and I went 21 back to the airport. 22 Q. So you came in the day of the hearing or the 23 day before? 24 A. The day before. 25 Q. Did you stay in Anniston or Birmingham? Pages 189 -192 48 HARTOLDMONO014747 193 1 A. Birmingham. 2 MR. PECK: I showed him our new office. 3 (THERE IS A DISCUSSION OFF THE RECORD.) 4 BY MR. LOWE: 5 Q. After receiving a copy of this article, did 6 you dispute anything you said in here to the reporter? 7 Did she report anything incorrectly? I guess I should 8 say. 9 A. I don't remember having that response, no. 10 Q. Well, come on 11 A. I'm sorry, you're right, I said 30 million not 12 30 billion. 13 Q. That was the one I was going to put out, just 14 to prove that you read it. 15 A. I forgot about that. 16 Q. So you don't dispute, then, saying: 'The 17 thing we need to get fixed is that the fish have above 18 die level (PCBs) determined safe for human 19 consumption*? 20 A. I think I said something -- I'm not sure that 21 was an exact quote, but I said something to that 22 effect, that that was the pathway, that we needed to 23 understand that pathway and do something to break that 24 pathway, yeah. 25 Q. Then you said: *We don't think this is a 194 1 health problem, but this is a regulated chemical'? 2 A. I'm3 Q. That's consistent with what you were trying to 4 tell us 5 A. I could have said something like that. 6 Q. That's what you're paid to say, isn't it? 7 A. No. I'm paid to understand health and science 8 issues around PCBs. I'm not paid to say anything. 9 Q. You also state: "We're confident that 10 materials are not leaving the plant site. * 11 Does that mean, like, barrels on trucks or are 12 we talking about PCBs there? 13 A. I'm talking about trace levels of chemicals. 14 Q. Monsanto's position, you say here, "...is that 15 you say we couldn't have a position on remediation 16 until a study is made to determine the situation." Is 17 that correct? That's what you're telling me. 18 A. Yeah. I don't know that I said those words. 19 If I did, they sound kind of funny, but, yeah, that's 20 right, our position that we need to complete the 21 proposed study to determine what activities, if any. 22 are appropriate. It says-our position is we have no 23 position. 24 Q. When did Monsanto or Solutia first determine 25 that they should initiate a study on remediation? SCRUNCHTM 195 1 A. That's part of the ongoing RCRA process. 2 Q. When did that start? 3 A. I don't know. Sometime in the early '90s. I 4 don't know exactly. 5 Q. Why did you wait so long to get to die 6 property owners, the individuals, in Choccolocco Creek 7 and Lake Logan Martin? 8 A. I'm sorry? 9 Q. Well, you're talking about -- it's been six 10 years, at least, if I accept your RCRA statement that 11 that's when you first started thinking about 12 remediation. 13 A. Something like five or six years, yeah. 14 Q. Why should the people on Choccolocco Creek and 15 Lake Logan Martin be the last to get any help in the 16 form of remediation? 17 A. Well, we have determined, and ADEM agrees, 18 that a phased approach was appropriate to get to the 19 levels that - to the extent that there was a potential 20 source at the Anniston plant, to get that source 21 buttoned up, to do the appropriate interim measures. 22 there, and then move off-site in a later phase. 23 Q. Who at ADEM agreed with you that it should be 24 a phased approach? 25 A. I don't have a specific name that agreed with 196 1 me. I think that Steve Cobb would say that that's 2 consistent with their position. 3 Q. Is there some particular reason you couldn't. 4 like, clean up at the plant and clean up in the stream 5 at the same time? 6 A. There's no -- the information required to 7 determine whether cleanup is appropriate in the stream 8 or somewhere else and what that appropriate cleanup, or 9 whatever the remedial action might be, isn't available. 10 You need to get that information. 11 Q. Is ADEM going to do any of its own soil or 12 bore testing on the sediment? 13 A. I don't know. 14 Q. That's not part of your plan, is it? You're 15 going to do it, you're going to pay for it? 16 A. Yeah. We are going to pay for the plan that 17 we're proposing to do. 18 Q. That's right. And then you're going to write 19 up what you find and then you're going to submit some 20 proposals to ADEM, right? 21 A. Presumably. That's the process. 22 Q. But ADEM's not, to your knowledge, going to do 23 any sort of independent testing, are they? 24 A. I don't know. 25 Q. You haven't thought about any of that? Have Pages 193 - 196 49 HARTOLDMONO014748 197 1 you ever talked about that point to ADEM? 2 A. I have not asked ADEM whether they're going to 3 do any independent testing, no. 4 Q. So this idea of just spending a million and a 5 half bucks to go out and do some sampling, testing, and 6 propose maybe if something comes up where you think you 7 need to remediate something, you were going to submit a 8 proposal to ADEM; that's your future plan for helping 9 these people that you dumped PCBs on at Choccolocco 10 Creek and Lake Logan Martin? 11 A. It's our plan and proposal for dealing with 12 the issues relating to PCBs in the off-site areas, yes. 13 Q. But for the next three years there's still 14 going to be a fish advisory, don't you think? 15 A. I don't know. Presumably. Could very well 16 be. 17 Q. Because these levels of PCBs aren't going to 18 diminish significantly within the next three years, are 19 they? 20 A. In the fish? Probably not. 21 Q. That's because it stays in the soil, doesn't 22 it? I don't know what the life of a fish is, but I 23 don't think it's very long. 24 A. It's not clear where those PCBs that the fish 25 are getting are necessarily coming from. 198 1 Q. They're coming from the sediment in the soil 2 and you know good and well they are. You can keep 3 splitting hairs on me. 4 A. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I don't know that I 5 agree with that. 6 Q. Well, do fish breathe air? 7 A. No. 8 Q. It bioaccumulates. The little bitty things 9 down by the sediment are swimming around and the fish 10 eat that and then bigger fish eat the little fish and 11 then birds eat the fish people eat the fish and it 12 keeps going up the chain, right? Isn't that how it 13 works? 14 A. That's a fair description of bioaccumulation, 15 right. 16 MR. PECK: Can we have a biobreak? 17 MR. LOWE: Any time. 18 (A SHORT BREAK WAS HELD.) 19 BY MR. LOWE: 20 Q. What did Monsanto/Solutia do with the debris 21 that was removed from the houses that were bought 22 around the plant? 23 A. I think it was taken -- well, I think there 24 was some asbestos concerns and I think the asbestos 25 debris may have been taken to an asbestos landfill. I SCRUNCHTM 199 1 think the rest of it was taken to a construction debris 2 landfill maybe in Georgia somewhere. I'm not totally 3 sure. 4 Q. Why so far? Was that some specialized 5 landfill? 6 A. Not that I know of. I don't know die 7 arrangements for why there or why anywhere else. 8 Q. Were you involved in the settlement 9 negotiations with the plaintiff's group of the houses 10 and the church near the plant? 11 MR. PECK: Are you talking about the 12 Marcel (PHONETIC) case? 13 MR. LOWE: Donald Stewart's case. Is that 14 what it is? If you're going to jump up there and 15 answer questions for people, you need to disclose 16 everything you know. You can't just be quiet when I 17 ask you a follow-up question. 18 BY MR. LOWE: 19 Q. Were you involved in that? 20 A. In which? 21 Q. In 22 A. The answer is: I can answer your question as 23 to settlement discussions. As to settlement 24 discussions, the answer is no, I have not been involved 25 in settlement discussions. 200 1 Q. Well, are you familiar with whether or not 2 those settlement agreements are public or was there 3 some privacy provision? 4 A. I don't know. 5 Q. Do you know die reason why Monsanto agreed to 6 give two and a half million dollars to the church 7 that's across die street from die property? 8 A. In general terms, yes. 9 Q. Why? 10 A. Because we made an offer to them constant with 11 the offer we made to the church that agreed to a 12 relocation proposal, and then we had to pay the 13 attorneys, I guess. 14 Q. Is die agreement to buy the church or did they 15 just give diem a payment? 16 A. My understanding is we will receive or have 17 received tide to the church. 18 Q. And it's going to be destroyed, I assume? 19 A. I don't know. Presumably at some point in 20 time. I don't know. 21 (THERE IS A DISCUSSION OFF THE RECORD.) 22 (PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT NO. 4 WAS FIRST DULY 23 MARKED, RECEIVED AND MADE A PART OF THE RECORD.) 24 BY MR. LOWE: 25 Q. Let's look at what's marked as Kaley Exhibit Pages 197 - 200 50 HARTOLDMONO014749 201 1 4. Do you recall receiving that document from the 2 Alabama Department of Public Health? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Why was this sent to you? 5 A. I asked Brian Hughes for it. 6 Q. And this appears to be blood test results that 7 the department performed on residents near the plant; 8 is that right? 9 A. Well, it's a form letter used to report those 10 blood results, yes. 11 Q. All right Now, why did he right on the front 12 of this fax cover sheet: "This is a 'sanitized' copy"? 13 A. Because there are no names involved. The 14 letters that went to the people had their names and 15 their blood levels and this has no names and blood 16 levels. It's just a form letter. 17 Q. It's a form letter? 18 A. I mean, it's a form letter they prepared to 19 communicate these results to those people. It's not a 20 letter that they used year after year after year. 21 - Q. So your testimony is that it was - this form 22 letter was sanitized because this form letter didn't 23 contain all of the people's names that it was going to 24 be sent to? 25 A. It didn't contain any of the people's names. 202 1 I asked Brian for a copy of the letter that was used to 2 communicate the results to the people who had their 3 blood tested, and he agreed to send me that letter with 4 no identifiers. So he, quote, "sanitized'' it by -- 5 you'll see here it says: Field, Field, Field, Field. 6 Dear Field. That's because in the original letters 7 would have had somebody's name and their particular 8 blood level. 9 Q. Did you make any effort to call on, contact, 10 meet, go up to the door to any of these people that 11 lived around the plant? 12 A. Did I specifically? 13 Q. Yeah, did you do that or have someone do it on 14 your behalf? 15 A. People from Solutia and the property purchase 16 program contacted people in those neighborhoods on 17 various occasions. Not with regard to the blood 18 levels. We're done with this document? People from 19 Solutia did contact some people in those neighborhoods. 20 Q. Why was that? 21 A. To communicate the ~ primarily communicate 22 the property purchase program, the opportunity to 23 participate in that, and then in consultation with -- 24 consultation, compliance with tile second consent order. 25 the 1996 consent order, for people who didn't SCRUNCHTM 203 1 participate in die property purchase program, we 2 offered those people cleaning and temporary relocation 3 of their homes and they were contacted for that reason. 4 And prior to that, way before that, they were - people 5 were contacted for permission to sample on their 6 property. 7 Q. With regard to the cleaning program, you 8 offered to come and clean people's homes; is that wbat 9 you did? 10 A. That was one of the terms of the agreement of 11 the consent order, yes. 12 Q. All right. Does Endust and Formula 409 13 counteract or do away with PCBs? 14 A. I don't have any idea. I think you're 15 mischaracterizing the cleaning that was done. We 16 offered -- tire ADPH had determined or detected that in 17 some homes there were levels of PCBs in dust in the 18 homes, and we offered to engage a commercial cleaning 19 firm to come in and give those homes a thorough 20 cleaning. 21 Q. No, I'm talking about the subsequent. Wasn't 22 there, like, an offer of at least once a month they'd 23 come in and Endust and 409 your house? 24 A. No. We did a monthly cleaning on the Bethel 25 Missionary Baptist Church, but the homes themselves 204 1 were cleaned on a one-time basis. 2 Q. Did you report these blood test results that 3 are on Exhibit 4 to any of your superiors in the 4 company? 5 A. There are no blood results there. 6 Q. Did you get any blood test results. 7 information regarding blood test results? You did, I 8 know you did. 9 A. I attended a meeting that Brian Hughes and 10 others presented those to the people in the 11 neighborhood. I got the same information on a general 12 basis that the other people did. 13 Q. You didn't get any written reports regarding 14 blood test results, a little chart that had - 15 A. I think I asked - after Brian's presentation; 16 I asked him if I could have copies of the slides be 17 used to present that. 18 Q. Did you report those to your superior, Mr. 19 Foresman? 20 A. Probably not. 21 Q. You're on your own? 22 A. In many cases, yes. - 23 MR. LOWE: If you give me a few seconds to 24 talk with Pete, we may be able to wrap this up. 25 (A SHORT BREAK WAS HELD.) Pages 201 - 204 51 HARTOLDMONO014750 205 1 BY MR. LOWE: 2 Q. Is it your personal opinion that the PCBs that 3 exist in Lake Logan Martin and Choccolocco Creek should 4 just be left alone, left there? 5 A. I don't have sufficient information to make 6 that decision at this point. 7 Q. You mentioned earlier that you wouldn't have a 8 problem in eating fish thatyou knew contained more 9 than two parts per million PCBs. Do you have any 10 children? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q- Would you have any problem with allowing them 13 to eat fish with that? 14 A. On an occasional basis, no. 15 Q- How often is an occasional basis? 16 A. I don't know. 17 Q Come on. 18 A. The answer's no. 19 Q- You're the PCB man? 20 A. The answer is no to your original question. 21 Q- You wouldn't have a problem with it? 22 A. No. 23 MR. LOWE: That's all I have. 24 MR. PECK: AH right. 25 (DEPOSITION ADJOURNED) 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 . 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 206 STATE OF MISSOURI ) ) COUNTY OF ST. LOUIS ) I, KEVIN J. WEICHMAN, CSR, RPR, Notary Public in and for the County of St. Louis, State of Missouri, do hereby certify that pursuant to stipulation there appeared before me on the 4th day of September, 1998, at the offices of Taylor & Schroeder Reporting & Video, 7494 Ethel Avenue, St Louis, Missouri, ROBERT G. KALEY, who was first duty sworn by me to testify to the whole truth of his knowledge touching the matter in controversy aforesaid, so far as he should be interrogated concerning the same; that he was examined and the examination was taken down in shorthand by me and afterwards transcribed by computer-aided transcription. IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand and affixed my notarial seal on this 4th day of September, 1998. ______________________________ KEVIN J. WEICHMAN, CSR/RPR Notary Public SCRUNCHTM 1 STATE OF MISSOURI ) 207 ) 2 COUNTY OF ST. LOUIS ) 3 I, ROBERT G. KALEY, do hereby certify: 4 That I have read the foregoing deposition; 5 That I have made such changes in form and/or 6 substance to the within deposition as might be 7 necessary to render the same true and correct; 8 That having made such changes thereon, I 9 hereby subscribe my name to the deposition. 10 I declare under penalty of perjury that the 11 foregoing is true and correct. 12 13 Executed thisday of, 14 1998, at,. 15 16 17 18 19 ROBERT G. KALEY 20 21 22 Subscribed and sworn before me thisday of, 1998. 23 My Commission Expires: 24 25 Notary Public 208 1 DEPOSITION CORRECTION SHEET 2 DEPONENT: ROBERT G. KALEY 3 RE: THOMAS C. DYER, ET AL v*. MONSANTO COMPANY, ET AL Consolidated For Discovery With 4 SHELTER COVE MANAGEMENT, INC., ET AL vs. MONSANTO COMPANY, ET AL . 5 Upon reading the deposition and before subscribing 6 thereto, I would like to indicate that the following changes should be made: .7 Page____ Line_____ 8 Should read ______ Reason assigned for change: 9 Page__ Line 10 Should read- ______ Reason assigned for change: 11 12 Page__ _ Line Should read Reason assigned for change: 13 Page____ Line 14 Should read ______ Reason assigned for change: 15 Page Line 16 Should rea3~ ______ Reason assigned for change: 17 Page____ Line 18 Should read ______ Reason assigned for change:' 19 Page____ Line 20 Should read ______ Reason assigned tor change: 21 Page__ Line____ 22 Should"read ______ Reason assigned for change:' 23 24 SIGNATURE OF DEPONENT: 25 DATE:_____________ Pages 205 - 208 52 HARTOLDMONO014751 209 1 DEPOSITION CORRECTION SHEET (PAGE 2) 2 DEPONENT: ROBERT G. KALEY 3 RE: THOMAS C. DYER, ET AL vs. MONSANTO COMPANY, ET AL Consolidated For Discovery With 4 SHELTER COVE MANAGEMENT, INC., ET ALvj. MONSANTO COMPANY, ET AL 5 Upon reading die deposition and before subscribing 6 thereto, I would like to indicate that the following changes should be made: 7 Page.___ Line 8 Should read Reason assigned tor change:. 9 Page__ Line_____ 10 Should real Reason assigned for changer 11 Page.____ Line 12 Should read Reason assigned for change:. 13 Page.____ Line 14 Should read Reason assigned for change:. 15 Page. Line 16 Should read Reason assigned for change: 17 Page_____ Line 18 Reason assigned for change: 19 Page.___ Line 20 Should read Reason assigned tor changer 21 Page_____ Line 22 Should read Reason assigned for changer 23 24 SIGNATURE OF DEPONENT: 25 DATE:________________ 210 1 DEPOSITION CORRECTION SHEET (Page 3) 2 DEPONENT: ROBERT G. KALEY 3 RE: THOMAS C. DYER, ET AL vs. MONSANTO COMPANY, ET AL Consolidated For Discovery With 4 SHELTER COVE MANAGEMENT, INC., ET AL vs. MONSANTO COMPANY, ET AL 5 Upon reading the deposition and before subscribing 6 thereto, I would like to indicate that die following changes should be made: 7 Page.____ Line 8 Should read Reason assigned tor changer 9 Page Line 10 Should read Reason assigned for change:' 11 Page.____ Line 12 Should read Reason assigned for change:. 13 Line 14 Should read _______ Reason assigned for change:. 15 Page___ Line 16 Should read Reason assigned for change:. 17 Page.____ Line 18 Should read Reason assigned for change:. 19 Page_____Line 20 Should read Reason assigned for change:" 21 Page Line 22 Should read Reason assigned for change:. 23 24 SIGNATURE OF DEPONENT: 25 DATE:__________ ______ SCRUNCHTM Pages 209 - 210 53 HARTOLDMONO014752 1996 122:8,21 124:23 absolutely 42:19 81:8 85:1 126:21 127:5 128:6 92:4 175:12 180:18,19,20 130:1,13 137:8,24 139:13 185:2 $30 173:12,16 202:25 academic 99:20 1997 6:21 7:18 85:13 accelerate 158:20 133:23 accept 15:22 85:19 195:10 1998 5:7 105:21 110:9 acceptable 147:11 *70 105:19 149:17 190:9 206:6,18 accepted 38:6 103:12 '70s 58:14 169:16 207:14 accepting 85:17 '71 29:22 1999 112:14 145:22,23 accompanying 28:12 '76 182:21 '80 188:9 -2 - accomplish 143:10 accordance 5:4 '80s 188:7,8 according 80:25 '89 83:5 2 182:10,14 183:1 185:17 accumulate 50:16 52:11 '90s 195:3 209:1 accused 32:20 '94 83:9 20 27:25 82:15,19 92:11 acknowledge 87:12 90:19 '97 7:17 132:9,24 ' 110:24 186:10,13,15 acres 122:1,3 'sanitized' 201:12 20-isli 18:10 across 200:7 've 76:17 2000 106:9 112:17 Act 40:1 104:10 137:2,10 21 129:6,7 143:1,4 acting 181:17,21 -1- 21-page 140:14 action 35:17 38:11 66:24 22-page 155:14 139:6 141:19 145:16 152:16 127:9,11 118:2------ 27 83 "2 146:16 157:14 176:1 129:7,9 130:21 131:2 10s 54:13 -3- 196:9 actions 27:2 157:12 169:20 1242 80:17 1246 80:13 3 189:22,25~2Tffn 176:1 180:16 activities 18:17 133:16 14 121:23 30 27:25 44:4 82:15 96:21 135:22 136:13 146:11 15 128:6 106:8,10,12,16,17 107:8, 147:5 194:21 15s 54:13 11,12,15 108:20 113:3 activity 147:7 164:6 19 149:8 193:11,12 actual 37:5 119:19 1939 33:2 1960s 63:25 64:20 65:6,8,8 -4- actually 6:12,13 8:7,9 21:17 25:18 29:4 33:9 1968 7:20 1969 105:19 36:4 65:12 88:9 97:17 4 5:7 200:22"201:1 204:3 " 110:20 117:11 120:5 1970s 20:18 45:18,19 46:6 40 122:3 174:9 121:9 125:11 134:2 66:2 92:13 109:23 409 203:12,23 154:24 188:18 111:14 183:22 185:8 4:00 107:25 ad 96:15 1971 29:13 33:2 64:1,5,10, 4th 206:6,17 Adam 173:19,21 188:23 13,14,16 82:23 111:13 191:8 149:10,15 -5- Adams 141:14,15,24,24 1972 15:14 142:1 1973 8:1 17:15 29:12,13, 5 136723 add 142:23 19 30:5 50 38:17,24 39:7,10,15 addition 183:4 1974 7:24 8:9 122:3 address 24:7 104:16 1976 182:20 185:19 500 142:1 151:1 157:12 186:16,17 1979 39:23 -7- addressed 26:1 99:6 125:15 128:6 149:21 1980 186:25 187:16 189:4 188:22,23,25 189:5 74946:8 206:8 addresses 128:22,23 1980s 9:20,25 12:7 59:17 addressing 99:8,21 78:1 -8- ADEM 30:18 31:1,9 1983 77:23 113:6,20 137:1 139:3,5 1983/'84 57:4 860 179:6,19,21 181:24 143:9 154:21,24 155:2,4 1984 29:2 30:2,4 32:5,9 156:25 161:4,7,11,15 35:10,18 37:4,7 77:22 -A- 172:9 173:9 179:24 85:16 111:14 180:15 181:1,8 195:17,23 1984/1985 30:8 32:4 abilities 79:0",12 18(3124 196:11,20 197:1,2,8 1985 29:2 30:2,5 ability 95:24 96:1,2 ADEM's 161:8 196:22 1988 190:4 able 52:1 91:6 93:9 104:9, adequate 92:9 1989 35:23 37:6 39:20 15 204:24 adhere 49:17,19 176:15 83:8 above 53:15,18,25 54:2,5, adjacent 118:24 1990 77:23 10 74:22 76:2 78:21 adjoining 120:25 1990s 53:20 55:17 59:25 107:16,19 108:18 109:6 ADJOURNED 205:25 1993 59:20 110:3 139:12 147:13 administered 5:17 1993/1994 83:9 193:17 Administration 54:16 1995 136:25 absence 104:2 admit 73:12,19 87:12 159:2,3,4,8 ADPH 30:24 181:22 203:16 ADR 14:13 15:7 22:1 adsorption 49:9 adverse 52:25 66:16 69:1 86:9,14,18 87:24 88:23 90:4,23 92:18 97:18 148:5,13,15 adversely 147:20 advice 126:20,22 127:1 advising 179:18 advisories 72:14,20,22 112:24 147:7 178:21 advisory 69:24 107:19 147:10,13,19 158:17,24 160:22 168:3 177:11,24, 24 180:9 181:24 197:14 affairs 6:18 affect 16:18 affects 147:20 affidavit 6:9,10 11:23 12:24 43:17 46:15 76:17, 23 139:20,25 140:3,3,9, 14,17 141:1,3,3,10 142:8, 15,16,20,22 143:1 145:21 155:14 190:21 affixed 206:17 aforesaid 206:11 after 5:16 15:14,22 16:3 25:23 55:15 64:10,13 73:1 88:11 91:17 94:6 102:9,18 110:1 121:7,11 129:11 142:24 172:4 177:23 185:17,18 192:3, 12 193:5 201:20,20 204:15 afterwards 165:16 206:14 again 12:7 67:17 71:7 93:10 105:21 132:4 149:23 172:7 against 12:2 13:22 14:22 15:25 113:13 180:16 age 5:15 163:13 agencies 69:25 70:16 71:23 103:11 108:14 111:21 138:2 180:15 agency 19:21 30:17 60:9, 13,15 71:20 138:11 172:9,11 ago 27:22 44:4 48:10,12 49:25 72:4 92:11 106:17 109:19 110:24 111:8 128:11 132:8 142:8 186:10,14 agree 34:21 52:12 53:1 64:6 88:21 91:1 124:19 173:21 198:5 AGREED 5:1 127:17 169:7 195:23,25 200:5,11 202:3 agreeing 112:1 agreement 15:13,18,19,23, 25 127:22 200:14 203:10 agreements 15:11 200:2 agrees 195:17 ahead 99:9 103:22 173:18 .. SCRUNCHTM INDEX $30-ahead 1 HARTOLDMONO014753 175:24 182:7 AHWMMA 137:9 air 198:6 airport 192:20,21 AL 208:3,3,4 209:3,3,4 210:3,3,4 Alabama 6:2 7:12 16:6,9, 10 17:16,23 18:15 24:13 28:5 30:18,21 31:25 34:15,23 37:9,12 41:20 70:17 72:15 73:20 116:21 122:7,12,19 123:8,16 124:22 126:21 127:3 128:18 129:25 130:12,19 137:1,9 155:19 168:4,11,21 169:6 177:5, 10,22 179:18,24 180:6,14 181:23 183:14 201:2 alert 67:3,5 _ alerted 37:12 alerting 66:6 All 13:19 17:5,8 19:16 23:10 26:8 30:18 41:19, 21 42:4 43:23 46:14 52:13 54:10 58:7 61:6,9, 10,12,16,19 62:20 63:7 73:1 74:5 76:17,21 81:23 83:3,13 84:4 86:1,3 89:16 90:1 93:13 94:13, 19 95:8 105:18 107:25 109:12,13 110:1 112:10, 23 113:16 114:25 116:7, 14 126:10 128:20 129:3 140:8,15 141:6 142:4,5, 23 146:20,23 147:7,9 148:20 149:25 150:18 151:5,22 153:5 155:11,13 156:24 163:4 173:9 175:24 178:21 183:8,9,18 184:24 185:1 186:22 187:12,17 189:5 201:11, 23 203:12 205:23,24 allege 11:8 alleging 10:20 Allen 24:8,10,12 134:6 162:3 allow 65:24 allowing 138:11 205:12 almost 55:25 61:9,12 96:15 118:5 alone 205:4 along 36:25 75:16 147:17 148:19 149:18 178:21 already 42:24 81:17 103:24 104:12,22 108:6 142:17 143:3 alterations 86:15,22,24 90:2 alternative 14:13 102:21 147:11 alternatives 102:3,7 144:20 151:20,22 although 19:24 30:6 52:10 80:1 81:21 113:2 172:14 always 150:16 174:23 amass 56:12 ambitious 143:5 144:2 Amel 39:9,21 among 92:22 140:23 173:2 amount 33:5 114:9 144:8 amounts 50:25 170:4 analogy 54:25 55:8,10 analyses 29:6,15 74:18 83:7,8,9 145:7 184:18 185:15,20,22 186:17 Analysis 19:13,14 29:3 89:20 101:22 146:15 184:16 185:17 188:17 analytical 7:24 8:10,11 21:20 22:7 29:5 34:17 95:22 99:17 100:1,14,25 176:19 182:17,18 183:2, 20,23 184:17,17 185:14, 15 186:11 187:3,13 analyze 95:24 analyzed 30:7 39:6 58:23 84:21 anatomy 100:5 and/or 146:5 207:5 animal 50:17 58:8 92:12 94:9 animals 51:15 69:11 94:16 95:4,21,21 184:1 185:4 Anniston 9:1 17:16,23 18:14 24:9,13,14,19 26:15,20 28:5,12,16,25 29:3,6 30:8,12 31:15,16 32:13 34:15,23 36:15 37:14 39:20 40:17,21 41:6,20,22 43:20 55:14, 16 56:4,19 58:13,22 62:19 63:6,13 73:13,20 77:18 78:14 82:23 83:17 84:7 113:14 116:3,6,15 118:25 124:3 128:18 129:16 135:13 139:18 163:8 164:10 171:6 177:5 190:8,10 192:25 195:20 Anniston's 85:15 announced 116:25 annual 132:15 133:16 another 19:5 41:11 43:6 55:11 87:18 97:12 99:13 105:3 106:6,22 113:4 140:17 142:16 172:8 192:14 answer 27:4 46:16 58:3 74:25 75:3 76:5 89:25 96:23,24 97:3,11 98:13, 25 103:23 107:6 109:16 114:22 115:4,8,8 118:10, 17,20 122:19,23,24 124:14,16 125:5 127:7 129:1,5 130:15 160:11,15 169:25 182:7 184:2 190:24 191:2,12,14 199:15,22,22,24 205:20 answer's 205:18 answered 48:3 49:24 73:10 74:3 79:1 104:22 181:2 185:16 answering 5:16 41:14 60:3 98:7,10 173:23 188:13, 13,15 answers 59:10 106:7 110:7,8 Antarctic 174:12 anticipate 126:10 154:24 165:19 anticipated 133:8 144:4 anticipation 114:10 antics 114:1,2,6 any 6:7 7:2,5 8:21 9:17 11:17 12:1,20 15:11,22 16:4,9,10 19:1,5,5,17,20 20:5 21:6,24 25:1,8 26:4,17 27:24 28:23 29:7,14 30:20 31:24 32:25 33:2,5,14 34:15,25 35:17,24 39:14 40:3,13 41:2 42:11,15,15 44:14 49:14 53:15 56:1,12,15 57:6 58:11,11,20,24 59:2, 13 63:7,9 64:8 65:5,25 66:15 68:21 69:1,2 70:25 73:24 79:10 80:19 83:24 85:15,17,19 86:7,23 88:4, 16 91:5,8,18 93:5,14 94:9,10 95:23 97:6,20,21, 22 99:8,13 101:3 102:16 105:15 108:17,24 111:18 112:22 113:12,14 114:9 116:19 120:10,21 125:10, 20 126:3,16 127:2 128:5 130:20 133:8,14,22 135:5,6,9,12,15 136:6 138:10 139:6,12 143:22, 22 144:1,9 147:19 151:19,24 153:11,23 154:1 155:4 156:14,15 157:1 158:11 159:9 167:9,13,18 168:10,19 175:13 176:23 177:17 180:7 185:18 187:7 188:16 194:21 195:15 196:11,23,25 197:3 198:17 201:25 202:9,10 203:14 204:3,6,13 205:9, 12 anybody 39:13 96:5 106:4 111:24 177:19 anymore 83:19 anyone 8:14 23:10 68:25 72:10 85:25 88:17 97:23 98:9 123:6 133:21 177:23 179:9 182:1 anything 19:15 20:14 38:7 39:14 59:3 79:7 84:15,20 95:14 99:25 110:23 113:6 126:15 141:1 148:21 153:16 158:7,13 164:25 168:23 172:17 173:14 193:6,7 194:8 anything's 176:10 anyway 46:1 112:25 123:14 124:18 176:14 anywhere 25:2 109:1 152:3 199:7 APH 130:10 apiece 18:4 apocryphal 33:16 apparently 96:16 130:2 142:6 appear 75:17 123:3 128:10 appeared 192:3 206:6 appears 201:6 applied 188:3,25 189:2 approach 143:5 144:2 152:17 157:8 171:10 195:18,24 appropriate 28:13 38:11 59:11 102:23 103:1 104:6,6 108:11,11,15 112:22 119:13 143:6,8 144:6,16 146:12 147:5 151:10,12 155:24 157:12 158:12 161:9,10 166:8 169:10,12,20 171:10 178:6 179:15 180:24 191:16 194:22 195:18,21 196:7,8 appropriately 168:5 approval 146:13 approve 162:6 April 136:25 area 39:1 44:4 56:7 57:1,2 109:14,20 113:14 117:5 118:16 122:6 123:10 125:4,4 135:10 156:20 192:18 areas 43:23 56:5,6,21,23 69:13 75:17 112:1 117:19 121:18 135:23 146:12 180:8 197:12 aren't 41:14 52:9 69:1,25 74:12 83:14 84:9 85:2,22 92:15 108:25 150:13 169:24 178:12,14 180:3, 17 197:17 ^ argument 106:25 arising 14:17 armoring 151:18 152:7,15 153 :.16 154:1 Arodor 61:1,4,19 80:13,14 81:3 166:10 171:7,7 Arodors 80:25 around 23:19 80:22 83:18, 22,22,24 84:2 111:15 113:4 116:8 118:8 122:3 125:25 134:7 170:16 187:1,22 188:22 194:8 198:9,22 202:11 arrangements 191:23 199:7 artide 20:18,21 192:3 193:5 asbestos 198:24,24,25 ascertain 40:3 41:1 99:12 aside 114:18 ask 35:17 49:21 90:24 97:12 98:14,16,18 99:10 115:12 133:21 142:14 146:13 166:18,24 167:1 177:17 199:17 asked 15:21 48:3 50:5 67:24 70:18,19,19 72:10 98:19 104:22 115:7,18 119:10 120:14 126:7,20, scrunchTM index AHWMMA - asked 2 HARTOLDMONO014754 22 131:6,6 132:1,5,19 179:12 197:2 201:5 202:1 204:15,16 asking 23:17 44:25 49:22 51:22 59:23 79:14 105:17 115:21 116:21 119:23 123:1 126:25 161:2 166:19 168:15 170:7 174:14 178:13 asks 28:15 aspects 137:20 154:17 assessment 112:14 122:11 123:9,17 125:16 126:9 145:1,1,9 146:6,11 147:1, 2 154:4 156:22 assessments 112:7 144:19, 22,24 145:23 150:22 156:15 assholes 165:22 assisting 11:16 associated 21:21 25:15 55:24 59:8 80:5 105:4 118:11 176:16 association 96:13 132:17,18 assume 14:19 23:24 41:6 93:4 109:5,7 115:24 139:8 153:8 182:21 200:18 assumed 43:10 155:6 Assumes 111:5 182:4 assuming 51:25 108:14 178:8 assumption 41:25 42:5 57:17 assure 143:6 ATSDR 60:8,12,15 attached 40:19 76:18 attempt 180:21 attempted 15:24 151:19 attend 7:11 133:22 134:11, 17 attendance 133:8 attended 28:11 132:7 204:9 attending 132:13 133:7 190:17 attenuation 151:16 attorney 32:16 35:11,19 37:9,12,19 57:5 150:4,5 attorney's 13:8 attorneys 124:9 140:20 190:19 191:21 200:13 attribute 97:9 August 190:4,8 Austin 190:20 Austin's 190:12 author 46:25 authority 155:18 161:21 162:4,6 authors 90:18 97:9 available 63:24 64:19 65:22 70:9 97:24 146:10 196:9 Avenue 5:8 206:8 average 18:4 awarded 8:9 aware 19:3,22 26:7 45:3 scrunchTM index 56:15 59:13 74:18 86:20, 23 91:7,20,25 94:11 99:3 116:17 119:2 135:20 144:13 152:5 156:16 169:21 182:9 away 152:25 160:21 164:22 187:18 203:13 -B- B-R-I-O 25:19 Bachelor 7:19 back 13:12 33:1,18,23 34:3 36:16 41:1 56:2 61:15 74:11 110:4 127:18 165:19 190:15 192:13,19,21 background 28:3 backgrounder 27:22 backhoe 39:4 bad 55:3 169:3,5 ballpark 176:23 bank 109:1 banks 75:5 banned 177:4 Baptist 203:25 barge 174:12 barrel 66:20 barrels 194:11 barrier 121:23 bars 106:20 base 144:8,17 145:9 based 15:9 24:14 55:17 69:4 87:25 89:18 90:17 109:12 123:23 177:8 Basically 11:21 12:17 20:23 39:3 50:7 60:16 63:23 72:11 80:19 87:6 95:11 119:4,7 128:22 134:9 138:14 140:16 142:18,25 145:10 152:9 157:3 185:8 basis 35:6 88:22 89:8,9 98:24 146:6 204:1,12 205:14,15 bay 113:6 Bayou 25:15,17,20 Beaumont 10:4 became 169:21 become 40:2 becomes 39:25 beds 152:13 beer 115:20 before 5:9 7:17 29:12 36:20 72:10 78:25 106:4 121:1,9 125:18,19 127:18 132:23 133:1,7 134:14 141:2,6 162:11,20 163:3 169:13,16 173:3,4 177:11,20 182:21,23 192:4,23,24 203:4 206:6 207:22 began 63:24 121:2 begin 98:25 124:14 158:24 169:11 Beginning 57:4 64:19 behalf 5:6 9:25 12:12 16:4 23:12 26:9 159:5 202:14 behavior 176:15 beings 50:9 belief 41:17 150:3,4,10 171:3 believe 11:25 12:15 20:8 21:11 24:24 46:12 47:24 53:7,17,23 58:11 66:2 87:17 90:12,15 91:3 93:10 94:21 101:13 108:17,25 109:22,25 111:16 116:23 121:10 122:10,15 123:8 126:24 130:22 134:5 147:18 157:7 161:20 162:5,6 163:20 176:11 180:23 believed 89:20 bell 166:12 below 54:2,4,12 138:19 139:10 158:21 benefit 101:21 beside 84:5 besides 26:14 33:3 90:20 140:23 best 10:8 63:19 117:10 158:20 Bethel 203:24 better 27:14 83:25 88:16 102:4 117:3 136:10 182:2 between 5:1 15:12 33:2 40:13 85:16 124:12 180:3 beyond 64:5 biased 95:11,13 big 150:8 153:8 161:8 bigger 198:10 billion 55:21 193:12 bioaccumulate 50:13,14,17, 22 51:3,5,8,12,18 52:13 bioaccumulates 198:8 bioaccumulating 52:14 113:2 bioaccumulation 52:4,10,19 198:14 biobreak 198:16 biodegradation 65:10 biodegrade 86:3 biota 50:16 biphenyl 31:22 60:25 61:11,21 biphenyls 8:25 153:12 birds 52:24 187:6 198:11 Birmingham 192:25 193:1 bit 160:17 bitty 198:8 biweekly 164:13 blew 158:8 blood 79:17,21 201:6,10, 15,15 202:3,8,17 204:2,5, 6,7,14 Bloomington 12:9 13:25 14:3,6 22:2 blown 157:23 board 7:3 bodies 52:1 body 60:19 61:17 79:15,20 97:21 bore 196:12 both 14:24 26:12 28:10 53:17 96:16 127:20,20 144:20 151:21 162:3 bother 168:7 bottom 48:25 49:2,13,20, 22 57:22,23 75:18 100:23 182:19 bought 117:11 118:24 198:21 brand 61:1,8 brands 61:9 break 65:1,3 127:19 147:5 193:23 198:18 204:25 breathe 198:6 Brian 30:23 128:7 201:5 202:1 204:9 Brian's 204:15 bring 15:2 97:5 119:9 bringing 26:25 Brio 25:19,19 Britain 47:25 broad 155:14 broad-based 155:16 broader 95:16 brought 31:20 Brown 36:12 76:16 77:1 156:14,17,21 Brown's 156:11 bucks 145:21 197:5 build 147:8 building 14:18 164:18,24 165:1 built 144:21 bulk 112:13 119:17,18,22 Bulletin 20:19 bulletins 153:12 bunch 153:8 165:21 buried 153:13 business 6:25 150:23 buttoned 195:21 buy 50:22 121:14 200:14 buy-up 117:3 buying 116:14 118:15 119:1,5 -c- C-O-B-B 30:13 " C-O-N-G-E-N-E-R-S 80:17 call 26:19 27:22 55:20 59:24 61:10 75:11 80:16 109:14 132:1 141:24 143:25 177:14,19,22 178:13 179:9 181:24 202:9 called 12:14 19:14 25:18 32:5 56:25 132:10 141:25 166:9 179:8,11 calling 25:24 calls 17:6,8,9 103:21 136:17 137:4 178:12 came 42:16,19 57:18 66:14 125:7 127:18 140:18 183:1 192:22 can't 56:9 63:10 80:14 asking - can't HARTOLDMONO014755 122:17 127:7 142:17 165:3 175:13 176:5 186:8,9 199:16 Cancer 60:13 cannot 129:1 cap 39:2 171:15 capacity 7:6 capped 59:24 capping 59:18 carcinogens 60:12,14 care 49:21 51:2 114:25 166:4 career 8:17 29:4 145:10,11 carelessly 67:6 cares 166:6 Carolina 20:2 carried 37:6 39:21 40:20 103:13 113:20 184:12 carry 75:12 166:6 carrying 178:2,5 case 5:25 6:5,9 9:23,24 10:3,4,5,8,13,15 11:7,13, 16,23,24 12:3,6,10,25 13:2,5,7,12,20,22 14:11, 16 16:3 21:24 22:2,10 49:11 89:24 114:19 126:7,11 127:19 140:1,18 141:9,11,13,17,18,23,25 142:4,17 165:13 199:12, 13 cases 13:19 16:6,10 22:6 67:17 94:5 97:24 98:1 100:22 101:19 117:7 204:22 category 61:3 caught 45:20 46:11 cause 86:24 87:10,13 93:11,18 95:3,20 101:19 103:15 157:18 171:13 caused 90:20 94:15 95:2 causes 87:8 89:17 95:8 causing 118:7 158:24 ceased 55:15 cell 57:2 cells 59:23 60:1 Centers 131:15 century 108:6 certain 45:20 94:2,14,15 102:22 128:12 146:11,12 150:25 175:12 177:2 certainly 6:16 13:3 22:20 23:2 25:11 40:9 41:9 43:5 44:10 50:3 51:6,10, 21 52:15 55:25 57:1 58:1 59:7,12 60:6 62:1, 18 63:12 66:18 69:7 70:24 73:16 77:22 79:5, 19 80:10 82:7,9,21 87:11,22 90:20 91:25 94:12,19 99:9 105:23 107:8 110:15 116:20 135:20 137:6 138:22,25 140:5 147:13 151:15 152:14 153:18 154:22 155:2 164:7 166:6 170:24 171:25 172:1,20 185:7 186:1 187:13,14 scrunchTM index certainty 176:5 certification 142:12 Certified 5:9 certify 206:5 207:3 cetera 33:20 151:7 CFR 155*9 chain 50:16,19 79:5 198:12 changed 79:22 142:15 181:11 changes 207:5,8 characteristic 61:16 characteristics 9:4 49:10 50:15 63:6 75:9 76:6,7 81:1,10 82:1 90:5 101:16 177:9 characterization 80:1,9 86:12,16 117:5 134:9 145:25 146:2,8 157:3,20 170:1 characterize 146:1 characterized 125:4 128:14 136:22 charge 116:1 136:20 charged 9:8 chart 204:14 check 187:24 checked 84:25 Cheever 77:13 127:20 chemical 32:12,15 36:15, 16,21 37:17 43:1 71:11 101:14,15 152:11 154:1 163:18 185:5,6 186:24 194:1 Chemical's 36:25 chemicals 11:10 16:16 31:19 49:18 50:8,15 135:9 183:25 184:22,25 185:2,12 194:13 chemist 29:5 175:13 176:19 185:14 188:17 chemistry 7:20,24 8:11 21:20 22:7,8 35:14 95:22 99:18 100:1,13,15,20,25, 25 101:1,1,2 177:9 185:15 187:3,13 chemists 184:17,18 children 205:10 chloracne 68:17 87:8,10,14 chlorinated 60:22,23 61:5,6 62:1 80:10,11,12,18,19 81:19,21,25 82:9,10,11 86:5,6 chlorination 81:4 chlorine 61:11 chlorines 60:24 61:12,20 Choccolocco 32:11 41:18 42:6 43:11,21 44:22 46:3,5 53:13 72:15 73:4, 6,14,16,21,23 74:4,12,14 75:5 80:23 101:24 103:16 104:1,19 105:7 106:14 108:19,20 109:5, 7,10,14 110:14 111:19 112:1 114:11 115:3 127:4 129:20 130:8 147:17 155:22 159:6 163:22 178:8,9,22 195:6, 14 197:9 205:3 Chocolate 25:15,17,20 chosen 89:3 chronic 69:6 chronological 142:18 chronology 142:22 Church 190:7 199:10 200:6,11,14,17 203:25 Church's 191:4 Circuit 6:1 circumstance 81:12 circumstances 126:25 127:2 169:10 citizens 7:12 134:18 City 13:25 14:5 72:4 99:2 132:7 159:15 190:11 192:13 Civil 5:5 claim 91:8 106:20 claims 10:24 14:15,17 Clair 6:2 7:12 23:19 class 141:19 142:12 classes 100:13 classified 122:20 123:6 129:11 classify 122:8,13 124:24 classifying 127:4 Clay 5:24 106:23 clean 35:18 102:1,13 104:12 108:7 111:3 135:12 145:16 150:20 155:22 160:19 196:4,4 203:8 cleaned 102:10 204:1 cleaning 102:8,11 114:3 148:25 203:2,7,15,18,20, 24 cleanup 135:2 144:10,18 156:14 157:1 196:7,8 cleanups 26:18 114:10,16, 17 dear 34:8 45:25 46:1 73:19 197:24 clearly 24:21 34:17 38:24 client 106:19 107:20 dose 34:25 40:9 176:8 dosed 29:13,19 58:1 64:1, 25 149:8,10,11,13 dosest 36:14 dosing 149:9 Cobb 30:13,17,25 181:3,4 196:1 collar 42:18 collecting 84:20 college 8:13,19 come 17:6 40:10,11 62:13 72:7 83:18 98:5 115:19 132:19 134:6 154:5,12 156:17,22,24 158:9 165:24 176:8 179:12 184:3 192:7 193:10 203:8,19,23 205:17 comes 16:7 17:1 22:14 97:7 150:25 197:6 coming 118:11 146:23 197:25 198:1 comment 131:5 135:18 comments 72:9 107:24 131:8 138:4 commercial 34:20 203:18 commercially 70:1 commissioned 184:9,14 commitment 192:14 common 7:2,3 74:8 185:3 commonly 62:5,8 67:24 communicate 201:19 202:2, 21,21 communicating 137:22 communications 136:7 companies 26:12 32:25 33:3 150:8 153:8 189:16 Company 6:1 16:19,20 21:10 23:5,11,12 27:5,16 32:12 34:1 41:15 56:12 58:12 78:21 107:14 114:3 115:23 128:18 133:22 134:15,16 178:11 180:16 182:1 183:9 186:24 189:12,13 204:4 208:3 209:3 210:3 compiled 184:18 complete 194:20 completed 8:7 85:11 102:19 completing 144:2 complex 61:13 73:17 80:15 85:7 compliance 31:11 58:4 60:2 139:18 140:4 187:24 202:24 complied 187:23 comply 59:19 components 61:9,19 81:2 compound 59:6 98:14 145:3 compounds 80:7 comprehensive 143:7 computer 20:5 computer-aided206:14 concentration 49:3 concept 79:3 concern 98:8 concerning 206:12 concerns 57:6,11 198:24 condude 51:8 conduded 97:18 condudes 102:25 condusion 48:7,11 51:22 88:22 89:2,5,6,9,11 95:6, 9,24 103:21 130:13 condusions 21:19 88:1,15 129:7 154:5 concrete 85:4 conditions 27:13 51:11 68:16 confer 156:23 177:10 conferring 168:11 confidence 42:9 143:9 confident 194:9 confirmed 87 A confluence 109:10 147:18 confronted 57:6,10 congeners 80:16 82:20 85:23 Cancer - congeners 4 HARTOLDMONO014756 conjunction 154:8 consent 136:25 137:8,18,19 202:24,25 203:11 consider 69:16 99:14 173:7 174:22 consideration 144:20 173:6, 17 174:25 considerations 156:7 171:17 172:21 173:2 considered 44:8,10 47:5 48:15 56:5 82:21 147:2 156:8 173:3,11,11 174:3, 18,19 175:4 consistent 33:25 89:8 97:25 101:21 102:5 105:14,14 109:22 194:3 196:2 consistently 90:16 conspire 168:23 conspired 168:21 169:2 constant 200:10 constantly 79:16 80:2 construction 120:19 121:16 199:1 consult 124:5 consultant 46:8 125:11 consultants 28:9 76:12 104:1 154:9,21 161:18 consultation 6:15 123:18,25 124:2,23 125:6,20 126:21 127:5 128:11,15,18 130:21 131:3 202:23,24 consultations 180:11 consulted 26:16 119:4,7 125:22 131:23 consulting 21:15 119:6 131:17 156:19 consumption 69:24 90:17 177:11 180:9 193:19 contact 31:24 57:20 66:14 134:2,13 179:23 202:9,19 contacted 37:10 57:5 132:18 134:15 202:16 203:3,5 contain 29:9 152:10 176:7 201:23,25 contained 39:10 56:17 61:20 167:19 205:8 containing 38:6,10 contains 57:25 182:5 contaminated 176:6 Contamination 20:20 134:18 148:19 content 158:16 187:4 contents 157:23 context 95:16 98:22 continue 89:21 108:5 175:17 185:20,22 continued 55:14 111:13 121:2 169:18 continues 172:4 continuous 17:24 contracted 45:11 46:8 contractor 120:2 contribute 8:21 contributed 103:15 contributing 104:19 146:25 Control 40:1 57:13 85:8 117:9 121:16 131:16 137:2 147:14 controlling 171:10 controls 147:6 172:24 175:5,18 176:11 controversy 206:11 conversation 165:25 190:6 191:24 conversations 126:18 convinced 87:10 convinces 167:24 cooperating 111:21 copies 204:16 copy 47:19 76:17 142:16 193:5 201:12 202:1 copyright 182:20 corporate 186:25 Corporation 11:5 correct 6:18,19,21,22 7:21, 22,24,25 8:2,3 9:2,9,10, 14 12:15 19:8 21:2 32:16 39:18 42:13,14,21 43:13 44:19,23 45:10 49:2,16 50:4 53:7 64:3 82:25 87:20 88:3 90:9 92:23 140:22 145:14 149:21 156:13 157:8 161:13 162:19 163:7 182:22 183:1 190:23 194:17 207:7,11 CORRECTION 208:1 209:1 210:1 corrective 112:6 172:7,21 corrective-measure 108:13 155:1 156:2 172:5 corrective-measures 104:8 cost 171:17 172:23,25 173:1,2,3,5,11,12 174:4, 15 costs 151:7 173:17 could 29:5,17 30:6 42:19, 20 63:20 78:25 115:11, 18 118:12,12 119:9 171:12,20 184:2 187:7,8, 8,9,9 192:10,11 194:5 197:15 204:16 couldn't 97:5 110:24 194:15 196:3 counsel 5:2,2 6:15 124:12 191:21 count 18:11 165:2 counteract 203:13 counting 29:3 country 25:2,8 26:4 42:23 138-25 County 5:11 6:2 7:12 23:19 206:2,4 207:2 couple 9:22 26:16 31:7 71:23 75:8 142:10 188*22 course 10:10 23:17 32:23 81:7 89:10 100:3,17 103:4 117:8 160:16 170:16 courses 100:5,11,18 court 5:17 6:2 140:10 scrunchTM index 141:17,22 143:3 190:13 COVE 208:4 209:4 210:4 cover 117:18,19,23,24 158:12 175:8,9 201:12 covered 105:13 118:13 146:23 crazy 106:23 create 47:23,25 created 47:8,14,15,16 creating 103:18 credentials 79:7 credibility 150:10 credible 96:5 Creek 32:7,9,11,11,14,23 35:1,11,12,18,22 36:14, 17,19,24,25 37:4 41:18 42:6 43:11,20,21 44:14, 19,22 46:3,3,5 53:14,14, 15,16 55:14 72:16 73:4, 6,14,16,21,23 74:4,12,15 75:5,10,11,14 80:23 101:24 103:16 104:20 105:2,3,5,7,7,20,25 106:14,14 108:19,20 109:1,5,7,10,14 111:18,19 112:2 114:11 115:3 124:24 127:4 129:19,20 130:8,8 147:17 152:13 155:22 159:6 163:22 170:16 178:8,9,22 179:1 195:6,14 197:10 205:3 Creek/Choccolocco/Lake 146:3 Creek/Lake 104:1 creeks 149:19 170:15 criteria 38:21 148:15 critical 99:18 critique 97:20 CSR 206:3 CSR/RPR 206:24 customer 14:25 customers 12:21 14:23 65:24 66:4,7,11 67:5 cutoff 39:11 -D- D.C 131:17 daily 133:15 190:4 damage 53:4 94:15 95:4, 18,19,21 damn 115:16 dancing 52:6 dam 150:25 data 21:18 71:3,8 105:14 109:12 129:11 184:18 date 41:3 66:1 208:25 209:25 210:25 dated 128:5 dates 140:12,22 dawns 149:17 day 15:23 62:9,10,16,17,25 63:11 174:4 190:22 192:22,23,24 206:6,17 207:13,22 days 17:25,25 18:4,6 143:24 deal 15:17 17:5 23:8 28:19 181:1,11 dealing 37:25 181:8 197:11 dealt 25:6 181:5 Dear 202:6 debris 198:20,25 199:1 decades 33:21 decide 147:3 149:25 161:14 decided 69:25 131:4 160:19 decision 10:17 64:24 67:16 102:22 103:12 124:2 144:21 154:12,14,23 160:18,23 161:3,9,22 171:9 172:6 205:6 decision's 102:9 decision-making 171:14 decisions 156:13 173:6 180:25 declare 207:10 deem 82:16 158:12 deemed 108:15 128:13 Defendant 5:2 15:5 defendants 150:7,7 defense 11:7 defenses 11:13,17 67:10,16 166:10 defined 27:3 74:5 definition 48:17 51:23 52:4 Degree 7:19 8:7,8 163:17 degrees 163:14 delay 166:22,22,23 delta 109:14 delving 88:12 demanding 111:3 demolition 118:23 119:1,7, 8,11,25 120:6,13 121:2,3, 10 demonstrate 51:11,14 52:20,21 demonstrated 94:21 demonstrates 96:2 denied 38:7 denies 114:2 denser 48:20,22 density 49:7,11 deny 38:2 105:16 166:14, 14,14 deny/not 105:16 denying 104:18 158:25 159:1 Department 30:19,21 31:25 71:14 72:15 78:24 116:22 122:7,12,20 123:9,16 124:22 126:21 127:3 128:7 130:1,12,20 148:9 168:4 177:10,22,23 179:18,24 180:7,14 181:10,23 183:18,24 184:14 188:1,4 189:1,2,7 201:2,7 depend 148:1 depending 48:16 75:1,24 81:3 185:5 depends 24:3 50:23 54:2* 69:17,18 76:6,7 88:10 conjunction - depends HARTOLDMONO014757 DEPONENT 208:2 209:2 210:2 deposed 10:12 13:2,5 deposes 5:17 deposition 5:3 6:3,7 9:17, 22.24 115:16 127:10 205:25 207:4,6,9 208:1 209:1 210:1 depositions 5:6 16:10 127:21 describe 50:15 146:20 description 12:17 198:14 deserved 131:5 design 146:13 157:11 designation 80:13 designations 61:10 designed 109:17 designing 27:1,2 Despite 153:7 destroyed 200:18 details 32:8 48:2 136:2 139:17 detected 38:4 44:2 54:10 55:24 69:14 84:22,25 170:4,22 203:16 detection 42:18 168:6 178:6 determination 130:2 158:22 determinations 188:18 determine 43:18 54:1 56:1 58:20 64:21 65:13 88:15 110:11 112:20 146:9 150:19 155:21 187:4 194:16,21,24 196:7 determined 38:18 39:7 57:8 109:19 110:24 111:24,25 193:18 195:17 203:16 determining 35:24 develop 99:23 104:7 146:13 169:11 developing 16:18 developmental 86:10 88:16, 24 89:17 97:14 device 42:18 devices 133:20 134:22 dictate 140:13,14 dictated 140:19 155:4 Did 8:21 11:8,11,19,23 12:10,11,12,13,20,24 15:2 16:22,24 17:16 21:6,17, 18 32:19 35:17,24 36:2, 8,14,16,17 37:19 38:3,8, 20 39:1,1 40:3,16 41:1, 11.19.24 44:3,16,18 45:5 46:5 48:6,6,7,9 53:14,21, 22,2556:1,12 57:11,11 59:18 64:14,17 65:23 66:15 70:22 72:7 75:9,17 76:21 78:1 83:7 85:19 92:10 97:10,17 99:11 100:2,5,9,9,13,14,17 113:12 118:15 119:3,15, 25 120:2,3 121:4,11,14 122:1,7,12 123:5,20 124:5,22 125:2,9,10,13 128:12 130:17 131:3 SCRUNCHTM INDEX 133:3,7,10,21 134:13,13 140:13,14 142:23 148:25 149:7 156:17 162:20,22, 24 163:8 165:12 169:1 177:6,10,12,14,17,19,22 179:4 181:13 182:17 183:18,18,22 184:6,18,24 185:1,25 186:22 188:16 189:3,5 190:6 191:5 192:3,7,12,13,15,16,19,25 193:5,7 194:19,24 195:2, 5 198:20 200:14 201:11 202:9,12,13,19 203:9,24 204:2,6,7,8,12,18 didn't 6:13 11:11,17 17:18 25:23 29:13 33:10 38:2 44:4,6,9 45:11 46:7 49:21 63:9,9 64:1,5,14 72:5 77:24 81:11 83:5 84:13 91:1 95:19 99:24 109:21 111:7 116:19 123:16,18 125:7 126:3 128:16 133:1 137:17,19 141:4 143:2 161:24 171:4 179:1 184:5 201:22,25 202:25 204:13 dielectric 47:13 difference 111:2 different 11:6 71:13 86:7 114:21 151:15 161:4 185:7 189:15 difficult 117:20 difficulty 128:16 digging 174:7 diminish 197:18 Diminished 53:6 DIRECT 5:19 137:23 139:17 directed 124:1 178:14 directly 77:14 119:2 137:21 143:19 154:22 163:25 director 6:17 77:11 162:5, 8 181:17,18,21,22 directors 7:2,4 181:11 dirt 121:23 174:6 disagree 86:11 88:22 89:3 90:8,10,12 91:3,9,11,13, 15,22 93:4 94:23 103:17 disagreements 87:23 disappear 86:1 disbelief 149:24 discharge 10:5 12:8 14:2 40:21,24 53:16,25 54:2,2 135:8 137:25 138:11 139:6,9,10 168:13 170:3, 14 discharged 40:24 41:2 64:4,16 66:10 82:5,5,6,7 138:21 discharges 12:8 63:13 64:22,22,24 82:8 135:25 136:14 138:15 139:12 170:22 discharging 32:13 110:25 138:18 disciplines 99:20 disclose 124:11 199:15 discovery 6:4 32:12 discuss 31:10 177:20 discussed 140:20 175:24 180:12 184:8 discussion 127:15 193:3 200:21 discussions 26:24 77:22 78:6 120:17 136:5 180:14 199:23,24,25 Disease 60:9 131:15 disguise 190:14 dismantled 149:14 display 52:24 disposal 38:18 39:11 40:1, 2 119:13,17 disposals 136:14 disposed 39:16 119:21 dispute 14:14 37:19 42:11 72:13 73:1,2 74:1,16 85:2 89:1 90:22 97:16 129:25 130:9,10 193:6,16 disputing 85:24 dissect 21:17 92:9 dissected 92:18,21 disseminate 23:1 dissemination 130:3 dissolving 81:10 distribute 27:16 distributed 60:18 61:17 distribution 80:3 146:4 ditch 129:18 130:7 ditches 35:21 36:18,24 37:4,13,22 38:5,9,13 39:20 40:4,9,14,17,18,20, 23 41:7 53:15 111:15 117:7,8 121:17 138:12 149:19 division 183:20 doctor 87:17,19,19 94:3 doctors 20:12 87:12,15 183:14 document 70:12 122:11,15, 22,25 123:4,12 125:1,3 127:8 128:8 129:2,4 131:4,6,8 137:13 140:16 166:15,18,25,25 167:1,2 168:14,17 201:1 202:18 documented 86:20 documents 33:12,22 62:15, 23 63:8,10,12 64:8 70:11 123:7 135:6,18 136:6 138:3 166:9 168:10 180:11 ' doesn't 49:16 70:12 84:15 88:23 131:25 148:4 150:15 152:23 153:16 157:18 164:9,25 166:4,11 170:19 175:21 179:6 182:5 188:12 197:21 dogs 92:17,20,21 doing 7:14 30:10 63:19 106:11 110:5- 113:2 132:20 134:7 145:23 155:5,13,16 156:11 157:8,9 161:10 182:6 184:17,22 185:11 187:3, 21.25 190:8 dollars 150:22 161:22 200:6 don't 7:4 9:20,21 10:19 11:13,25,25 13:3,11 14:8, 9 15:4,10 16:2 18:10,11 19:4,25 20:8 21:14,16 22:1,19 25:6 26:23 29:6, 14.14.16.21.23 33:11,14, 16 34:1,11,12 35:7 36:12 37:15,24 38:14,19,23 39:4 41:12,13,17 42:1,2, 14 43:23 46:12 47:4,21, 25 48:2,3,8 49:13,21 53:9 54:8,12 55:4,5,7 56:10,15 57:9,10,17 58:2, 15.18 59:10,13,16,17,25 60:1,17 62:7,12,14,16,17, 22 64:6 65:10 66:1,2 67:1,13,14,21 68:3 69:21 70:1,5,11,14,23 71:18,21, 21,2272:2 73:1,2,7,18 74:24 75:2,15,16,20,23 76:5 77:21 78:1,7,12,15 79:5,9 80:1,2 82:3 83:2, 8.24 85:25 86:6,11,16 89:1,11,15,25 90:10,14,24 91:3,5,11 92:20,25 93:1, 3.23 95:20 97:10,22 98:5,24 99:7 103:23 105:22,25 106:1,3 108:7 111:15 114:12,25 115:4, 6.8.15.24 116:9,17 118:10,17,19 120:10,21 121:5 122:2,25 123:13 124:11 125:2,4 126:16 127:2,16 128:4,4,21 129:25 130:9 131:1,20,20 134:11,20 135:6,19 138:17,18 139:14,19 141:11 142:10,10,16 144:1 145:8 147:12,19, 22.25 148:3,9,15 150:2, 14 151:9,14 152:17 153:1,8 154:25 155:2,10, 23 157:7,20 158:10,11,15 159:10,13,13,15 160:1,2, 11,15 162:23 163:9,11, 16.19 164:16,17 165:2,2, 11.19 167:20,21 169:25 170:10,23 173:5,8,23,25 174:12,24 176:13 178:7 179:7,19,21,21,22,25 180:11,21 181:20 185:25 186:2,6 188:10,12 189:17 190:14 191:8,10,12,15 192:10,11 193:9,16,25 194:18 195:3,4,25 196:13,24 197:14,15,22, 23 198:4 199:6 200:4,19, 20 203:14 205:5,16 Donald 199:13 done 11:24 20:9 21:11 22:20 27:25 29:5,11,12, 15,17 34:5 35:23 44:3 45:4,11 51:7,10,13,15,20 53:18,23 59:2,9 65:5,8 DEPONENT - done 6 HARTOLDMONO014758 66:9 68:20,22 72:2 75:7 76:10,13 83:8,9 88:4 92:20 94:17,21 95:5 99:19 109:23 110:12 111:9,22 112:6,13,16 121:9,20 148:18,21 149:5 150:23 151:6,11 152:16, 18 154:25 157:1 160:7 171:19,25 172:11 180:5 182:21 186:11,16,17 187:11 202:18 203:15 door 202:10 dose 53:11 dose-related 52:25 doses 94:15 95:1,3 double 140:14 down 14:1 18:17 26:24 36:25 42:2,4,10 64:11 105:20 117:11,13 121;1,2 131:7 148:20 151:7,21,23 154:13 174:5 179:1 182:19 198:9 206:13 downstream 111:19 dozen 95:18 Dr 30:23 76:16 89:18 125:17 127:20 131:6,10 134:10 181:12 draft 184:19 drafted 36:3,5 drainage 38:5 129:18 130:7 drained 36:23 drains 36:23 draw 95:24 dredge 39:2 158:12 Dredging 151:19 153:22 154:1 . drive 112:5 driven 72:11 178:25 drop 49:1 drove 84:1,3,3 Drug 54:16 dry 152:12 dual 7:6 due 109:24 DULY 127:11 182:10 189:22 200:22 206:9 dump 157:17 dumped 25:23 43:1 80:21 85:15 174:8 197:9 dumping 32:20 58:13 85:17,19 114:4 dumps 109:15 during 14:19 62:10,18 79:16 115:11,16,19 121:2 dust 120:24 203:17 dust-control 120:12,23 duties 7:5 9:15 16:12 27:9 166:7 duty 178:2 dye 59:2,10 Dyer 6:1 208:3 209:3 210:3 -E- E-N 183:7-------- SCRUNCHTM INDEX each 42:18 66:20 95:15 earlier 5:23 53:12,23 79:14 124:24 144:3 205:7 early 20:18 29:3 45:18,19 53:20 66:2 92:13 111:14 169:16 183:22 185:8 195:3 easily 79:1 east 117:5 122:4 125:4 129:18 130:7 easy 46:15,17 129:7 eat 50:21 112:24 147:19 148:4,7,9 167:18 168:8 198:10,10,11,11 205:13 eating 50:23,25 205:8 ecosystem 49:2 157:5 EDD 129:17 editorial 107:24 educated 99:25 education 8:22 163:14 educational 24:23 effect 67:1 80:6 82:11 88:23 90:4,14,16 148:5, 10,11,13,16,16 153:15 193:22 effected 40:2 effective 151:17 effects 52:25 53:2 65:6,13 66:16 68:9,13,24 69:1,6, 10,15 86:9,14,18 87:24 90:19,23 92:6,19 94:1 95:2 96:18 97:4,18 98:8 99:7 101:19 145:2,12 183:24 185:3,12 effort 35:25 40:3 56:1 66:15 102:16 122:5 140:21,23 171:4 202:9 efforts 26:9 27:10 28:6,10, 20 151:25 180:22,23 egg 53:6 either 28:13 31:10 32:11 66:13 114:17 134:6 173:25 176:24 Electric 11:4 153:20 Electric's 153:21 electrical 15:21 47:18 electrically 47:15,17 elements 100:12 elevated 45:19 68:17 74:22 111:1 elevations 93:19 94:2,6 elevator 165:5 eliminate 118:14 157:14 158:17 Elimination 137:25 else 23:10 24:3 77:1,2,3 96:5 106:2,4 108:15 124:5 133:21 135:21 136:2 160:6 174:11 196:8 199:7 else's 88:17 97:23 embryonic 53:8 employed 8:14 11:1,3 20:25 25:3 62:24 131:14 143:21,23 employee 131:10 employees 21:6 66:14 183:9 employers 10:25 11:6 66:19 employment 10:11 89:22 enable 103:25 encapsulate 85:8 End 56:25 122:8,13,20 123:10 128:15 129:12 130:6 135:23 170:20 endeavor 185:18 endocrine 86:22,24 ends 164:23 Endust 203:12,23 enforce 15:24 engage 203:18 engaged 76:15 120:5 125:11 131:18 154:9 185:18 engaging 76:13 engineer 79:8 163:16,17,18 enjoyment 147:20 148:5 enough 50:23,24 66:9,9 88:11 97:3 108:3,3,3 entered 136:25 176:13 entering 176:12 entire 8:17 106:20 145:10 entirely 114:22 171:5 entitled 114:22 124:17 entrance 141:20 environment 10:6 22:14 46:19 52:16 62:5,8 63:15,25 64:4 65:7 66:11,25 67:7 69:15 80:8,24 81:13,20 82:13, 17,19 100:12 101:7,10,18 113:4 145:12 169:3,17, 19,22 environmental 6:17 9:12 19:10,11,24 20:19 30:19 31:25 63:4 65:14 67:5 69:10 77:19,24 78:5,10, 19 79:8 101:1 145:2 176:15,21 189:6 environmentally 69:5 enzyme 68:18 enzymes 93:19 94:2,7 EPA 19:20 60:12,15 70:11,19,24 71:17,18 74:5 131:16 152:23 153:5,11 equate 76:3 equilibrium 79:19,23 80:3 equipment 15:21 erosion 117:25 118:7 erroneous 123:21 escape 57:7 escaping 43:8 establish 79:19 established 42:24 54:15 138:16 establishing 112:10 estimate 35:4,6 70:13 estimated 174:15 Ethel 5:8 206:8 evaluate 102:3,21 evaluated 151:21 evaluating 102:7 evaluation 89:7 144:15 evaporate 86:1,4 evaporating 81:10 evasive 124:14,15 even 43:1 47:13 55:15 59:10 60:2 61:25 64:7 70:5,8,23 78:12 87:15 94:20 103:18 105:25 110:1 125:2 157:18 158:15 165:10 169:16 173:7 182:5 events 142:23 eventual 38:18 eventually 10:18 18:13 32:18 41:7 64:24 87:7 104:15 106:14 134:6 146:14 ever 17:22 21:23 27:19 32:2 34:6 41:1 45:16 68:25 70:19 77:13 91:23 123:5 126:22 131:12 153:11 157:23 163:8 166:9,19 167:11,15 181:21 185:18 197:1 every 6:14,16 24:9 62:9,9, 16,17,21,25 63:11,11 80:25 81:12,24 84:3 164:7 everybody 34:7 106:12 127:21 everybody's 106:10 150:12 everything 34:6 139:22 140:2 153:9 199:16 evidence 6:4 89:7 90:13,15 91:16,25 93:11 95:20 111:5 182:5 exact 46:12 54:8 65:11 66:1,3 134:9 141:11 193:21 exactly 9:21 15:10 20:13 39:4 80:21 93:23 100:1,9 110:4 128:22 162:24 174:17 195:4 EXAMINATION 5:19 155:17 156:5 206:13 examined 5:15 93:25 188:18 206:12 example 19:1 24:8 50:10 51:24 52:18 66:14 80:17 160:19 171:6 exceed 138:15 except 167:7 exception 97:5 exceptions 81:22 exchanged 15:8 180:7 excised 184:15 excision 184:11 exclude 29:16 exclusive 24:22 excrete 51:2 52:1 excreted 62:2 excuse 50:2 170:25 190:11 Executed 207:13 exhaustive 110:10 Exhibit 127:9,11 128:2 129:7 130:21 131:2 143:3 182:10,13 183:1 door - Exhibit 7 HARTOLDMONO014759 185:17 189:22,25 200:22, 25 204:3 exist 56:3 101:24 103:16 104:19 205:3 existence 103:15 existing 39:23 73:14 85:3 117:20 146:19 exists 15:13,16 73:25 exited 40:22 expansion 140:17 expansive 85:7 expect 109:11 165:15 expectation 156:21 expedited 144:2 expediting 143:5 expenditures 162:7 expensive 85:12 experience 41:5 76:4,21 98:10 109:12 151:12 expert 21:23,25 22:3,3,6,10 126:11 160:1 expertise 26:25 125:15,25 156:11 explain 22:16 49:17 55:1 110:9 explained 93:7 exposed 10:11,21 68:15,23 69:2,4,5 94:5 exposing 11:9 exposure 10:24 22:13 87:25 91:17 93:6,18 94:7 96:19 97:15 98:7,20 120:7,8,19,22 exposures 52:23 101:7 expressed 149:23 extension 37:16 extensive 108:9 110:10 117:4 extensively 68:24 extent 35:25 41:11 42:9 44:1 49:14 59:8 79:20 80:4 81:16,18 82:4 101:21 125:3 136:21 156:10 187:20 195:19 external 52:15 extremely 69:5 -F- F-O-R-E-S-M-A-N 77:7 163:6 fabric 175:8 faces 162:2 facilitate 121:15 facilities 121:1 facility 35:22 36:18 39:6 64:11 105:15 110:18,21 153:23 171:7,8 fact 13:4 34:13 36:17 38:16 49:18 51:7 64:21 74:1,11 78:9 81:23 110:17 112:5 117:6 128:17 134:2 153:7 158:22 facts 10:8 111:5 140:22 146:15 182:4 fair 18:5 26:20 43:8 49:5, 6 51:17 52:14 79:25 80:9 86:12,16 88:21 90:2 104:11 113:7,10 157:3,20 170:1 198:14 fairly 27:23 173:18 fan 61:2 false 46:18 48:13 50:1,17 54:14,17,18 55:13 60:11, 18 79:16 80:7 86:8,13 familiar 8:24 9:4 15:15 43:17 44:14 58:4 63:5 65:5 92:14 120:4 137:12 153:18 168:10,15 200:1 familiarity 163:20 family 167:13 far 15:8,19 29:11 33:7 34:19,24 35:2 42:2 68:21 80:2 121:6 151:11 173:7 181:19 199:4 206:11 fast 75:16 105:12,12 146:22,22 fast-flowing 75:14 fat 50:7,9 52:3 60:19 61:17,22 79:15,17,20,21, 22 80:4 fat-like 50:8 Faust 24:8,10,12 26:5 28:22 60:5 77:4 115:24 119:24 124:3,6 133:25 134:8,10,25 136:5,8 137:5,16,20 138:7 140:12,19,24 154:17,20 156:23 161:17 164:3 192:10 Faust's 24:23 fax 201:12 faxed 192:8 FDA 107:17 February 128:6 fed 92:17,22 Federal 5:5 19:23 39:16 59:19 71:20 111:2,21 135:22 141:17 feeding 20:24 51:25 92:22 184:11 feel 97:15,16,19 99:22 fellow 47:22 felt 38:9 123:21 125:14 126:8 178:6 190:19 191:21 fence 40:22 83:18,22,22,24 84:2,4 few 33:21 43:1 55:21 111:17 204:23 Field 202:5,5,5,5,6 figure 14:4 98:18 105:21 106:10 113:5 158:19 file 27:15 133:14 filed 12:2 106:17 113:13 140:9,17 141:25 142:20 143:3 155:14 187:18 files 33:19 final 103:11 175:5 finally 35:23 financed 21:3 find 91:7,9 93:5 108:18 112:4 115:11,18 142:16 150:2 159:19 196:19 finding 43:11 53:12 83:3 87:4 93:10 103:14 findings 42:11 90:11 97:8, 10 111:25 112:4 fine 52:6,9,12 78:15 fire 14:17,19 firm 13:6,11,13 61:25 119:7 131:17 203:19 first 24:10 26:21 27:12 28:23,25 31:24 45:13 50:5 57:5 93:21 98:19 127:11 128:5 133:5 134:6 142:1 151:25 161:12 162:25 165:25 182:10 189:22 192:7 194:24 195:11 200:22 206:9 firsthand 136:8 fiscal 94:3 fish 43:21 44:4 45:5,8,10, 14,20,21 46:6,9,10 50:11, 12 51:5,9,10 52:17 54:22,23 69:10,21,23,25 70:2 72:14,19,22,25 74:17,19 76:3,7 90:17 103:8 106:3 109:20 110:14 111:1 112:24,25 147:4,10,13,13,18,19 148:3,4,7,7,9 158:17,21, 24 160:20,22 167:18 168:2,6,8,8 177:11 178:7 181:24 193:17 197:14,20, 22,24 198:6,9,10,10,11,11 205:8,13 fishing 147:7 five 60:24 61:7 150:25 195:13 fixed 193:17 Flip 129:6 145:25 float 48:19 49:18 floor 164:20 flooring 119:20 Florida 181:14 flow 37:4 flowed 40:18,23 41:6 75:19 106:13 flowing 37:20 75:15 flows 170:17 fluid 47:13 focus 20:22 22:25 23:2,3,4 24:21 118:23 focusing 145:11 foUow 148:24 foUow-up 199:17 foUowing 64:18 81:9 93:8 208:6 209:6 210:6 food 50:16,19 52:5 54:15, 15 food-chain 51:23 52:5 foodstuff 54:21 forces 171:12 foregoing 207:4,11 foresight 150:24 Foresman77:6 133:12 154:20 156:24 162:3 163:6 204:19 Foresman's 162:25 forgot 193:15 form 27:15 37:23 43:4,14 45:24 58:16 59:21 72:17 83:6,15 89:12 96:7,20 102:12 103:20 104:21 107:2 109:2 111:4 113:8 136:16 137:3 142:6 144:11 147:23 166:17 168:16 173:10 175:23 178:3 179:14 182:3 195:16 201:9,16,17,18,21, 22 207:5 formation 87:7 formed 46:21 47:2 former 171:7 Formula 203:12 forum 99:1 forums 24:7 found 13:21,23 32:9,10 38:12 41:18 42:6 44:6 45:8 46:10 47:18 57:12 58:24 73:3 75:22,24 82:15,18 83:10 90:3,23 92:2,18 95:1 98:9 101:24 152:23 169:7 four 60:24 61:7,12,20 104:22 113:5 142:1 150:1 fowl 52:24 frame 29:2 32:4 45:15 52:2 53:19 57:4 83:9 112:9,12 144:1,4 187:1, 16 188:6,14 Francisco 14:14,18 16:3 22:1 frankly 99:7 133:19 140:20 144:5 Frederick 183:7 Freewald 13:8 fresh 153:14 friends 167:15 front 7:12 123:1,13 128:25 143:2 179:5 201:11 full 5:21 26:12 146:2,7 full-time 25:10 26:5 fully 169:13 function 94:4 189:18 functions 94:6 funded 92:5 94:17 funding 8:21 funny 194:19 further 42:10 111:19 112:16 117:24 139:6 176:1 future 146:19 174:21 197:8 fuzzy 26:2 -G- (5-R-A-S-S-l-A-N-O 30:15 G-R-l-B-B-E-N 47:1 garbage 157:23 gather 144:6 145:7 gave 9:24 12:6 130:23 162:11 SCRUNCHTM INDEX exist - gave 8 HARTOLDMONO014760 general 32:17 37:9 52:24 66:13 71:2 79:25 81:21 153:19,21 155:7 200:8 204:11 general's 35:11,19 37:12,20 57:5 generally 48:15,17 49:6 54:9 55:5 56:15,17 60:21 65:21 68:15 75:12,15 79:25 84:24 105:4 140:6 142:19 generic 164:6 gentleman 77:6 183:12 geologist 24:24,25 176:18 George 5:22 183:8 Georgia 199:2 geotextile 121:22 Gerald 30:14 31:4 gets 169:6 getting 52:1 96:4 99:25 105:12,13 106:3 197:25 give 12:20 55:7 56:7 119:11 135:19 165:12 184:2 188:22 200:6,15 203:19 204:23 given 16:9 gives 94:4 97:22 giving 9:16 130:19 Go 14:4 18:23 27:4 33:23 34:3 36:16 41:1 48:25 49:2,20 91:7 94:3 99:9 103:22 110:4 115:15 121:4 146:15 150:20 167:15 168:7 173:18 175:24 177:23 181:13 . 182:7 192:13,15,16,19 197:5 202:10 goal 150:15 157:1 158:18 174:22 goals 143:10 goes 23:25 170:15,18 gone 24:6 33:18 75:4 96:15 150:1 157:23 181:12 good 34:3 43:22 50:1 65:2 78:3,25 93:1 101:21 102:5 107:4 116:7,11,12 169:8 192:16 198:2 good-faith 41:17 Gosh 190:17 gat 26:2 28:25 32:17 45:13 76:17 105:6,11,11 114:5 115:20 134:6 160:17 161:20 166:15 175:8 185:9 188:23 204:11 gotten 160:12 governing 172:10 government 19:20 20:1,2, 3,10 70:16 177:4 Graduate 8:19 graduating 8:13 graduation 8:19,20 GRAMMAS 107:11,13,18 108:1 113:24 114:2 127:23 142:2,4 150:15 167:6 192:1 Grassiano 30:15 31:6 Great 47:24 49:14 90:18 greater 38:24 39:7,10,15 81:19 167:19 Greer 132:17,21,23 134:4, 13,14 Gribben 46:25 47:19,22 ground 39:24 121:6 groundwater 58:22,23 59:1,7,11,14 84:12,17,19, 22 135:25 176:6,13,14,17 177:5 group 47:16 87:3 161:16 199:9 groups 55:1 95:19 98:6 guess 12:7 24:17 26:2 27:14 30:13 32:11,23 36:6,12 45:17 70:7,8 83:10 100:12 112:17 119:4 150:18 178:25 182:1 187:18 193:7 200:13 guesstimate 70:7 guide 104:4,15 guidelines 155:5,20,24 guy 18:19 139:15 guys 45:25 107:12,13 113:4 115:19 183:19 -H- habit 148:6 hadn't 91:18 173:11 hairs 62:20 198:3 half 144:5 145:21 150:21 197:5 200:6 Hall 13:14,15 hand 206:17 handle 112:2 handled 119:6 happen 84:18 85:8 150:16 175:20 191:5 happened 134:13 139:22 142:20 158:5 165:19 166:2 175:22 191:23 happening 175:21 happens 139:2 hard 64:23 Hardy 30:14 31:4 hasn't 68:19 155:4 173:11 haven't 16:11 30:20 33:13 34:5 51:16 64:8 76:12 88:4 92:1 110:23 112:21 113:24 128:23 132:1 145:13 148:21 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108:11,15,16 112:6,20,21 120:12,23 121:16 143:9, 10 144:16 171:19 172:1 173:17 176:12 195:21 mechanism 48:4 medical 89:9 101:3 183:14 MEDLINE 20:9 Mees 183:5 meet 47:16 133:3 202:10 meeting 23:22 68:25 72:4 99:3 132:6,10,14,16,23 133:3,7,22 134:14,17 204:9 meetings 7:11 18:16,17 28:9,11 30:15 65:21 71:25 72:2 meets 23:25 148:14 member 19:13 members 167:13 183:23 memorize 100:10 memorizing 55:4 memos 33:19 mentioned 97:4 136:21 180:9 205:7 mere 74:10 merely 96:10,11 message 116:5,9,10 met 132:23 mice 185:13 Michael 163:1,3 middle 163:2 Mieure 189:8 might 25:24 40:10,11 42:2 74:25 76:1 86:25 104:5,6 112:21 115:7 119:12 144:4 146:24,25 151:10 190:20 191:22 196:9 207:6 migrated 105:20 109:13 migration 105:22 171:13 Mike 13:8 77:6 162:3 miles 108:20 millennium 116:2 172:10 million 38:15,17,25 39:8, 11,15 45:22 46:11 52:17, 18 54:11,16,24 55:2 69:21 74:23 76:2 108:18, 21 109:6,20 110:3 145:21 147:14 150:21 151:1,1 158:21 160:21 167:19 173:12,16 193:11 197:4 200:6 205:9 millions 70:3 161:21 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82:8,10,11 85:15,17 86:5 88:12 90:13 96:5 97:22 104:16 126:4 135:1 136:3 137:6,12,15,17,17, 19,21,22 150:7,10 153:3 159:4 161:22 164:6 189:17 205:8 morning 67:9 73:2 144:3 149:22 162:10,10,12 166:1 175:24 181:3 182:15 184:8 185:16 mortality 53:8 most 29:11 51:23 63:16 67:24 90:17 98:19 111:12 135:21 136:12,23, 24 137:6 138:5 139:21 140:11 154:22 171:9 motivated 113:14 114:3 move 42:10 79:17,22 103:6 105:2,4 146:22 171:15 195:22 moved 121:21 movement 104:3,24 moves 75:16 moving 105:5 112:11 144:5 MSD 71:10 MSDS 71:2 much 17:19,21 34:16 54:7 73:17 88:8 118:15 119:5 121:5 122:6 133:19 134:25 141:9 152:20 153:3 muddy 75:13 must 19:6 38:21 54:9 91:21 93:4 190:15 myself 5:23 -N- nail 42:4 name 5:21,24 13:8,10 21:16 25:14,22 61:1 77:6 125:18 162:11,25 166:11 183:4 188:1 195:25 202:7 207:9 named 46:25 names 162:2 201:13,14,15, 23,25 naming 71:12 National 137:24 natural 48:5 51:1,1 151:16,16,25 153:25 naturally 46:18,22 47:3 48:1 80:23 nature 10:23 12:16 14:15 15:17 20:21 22:16 28:4 59:3 109:24 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193:11,20 194:8,10 196:14,22 197:2,20,24 199:2,6,24 200:1 201:19 202:17 204:20 scrunchTM index monitors - not 13 HARTOLDMONO014765 notarial 206:17 Notary 5:10 206:3,25 207:25 nothing 16:7 48:21 49:7 84:14 notice 179:4 notify 138:15 139:2 now 6:23 9:15,23 13:11 16:7,21 24:23 27:8 30:10,23 34:14 41:18 56:25 73:19 79:2 83:14, 18 85:10,13 96:16 103:15 105:11,20 107:18 110:9,12 111:2,7,16 114:5 122:6 123:7 125:12 129:23,25 130:16 131:16 136:4 143:2 145:15 148:8,18 149:17 151:4,24 155:15 176:18 181:11 189:11,14 201:11 Nowhere 140:3 NPDES 140:4 number 55:12 69:19 70:5, 6 77:20 89:5 92:12 110:13 111:9 125:1 144:12 149:5 151:14,20 159:9,10 179:4,5,8,12,19 181:24 187:7,10 number's 179:21 numbers 46:12 54:8 nutshell 112:3 -o- oath 5:17 73:12 Object 37:23 43:4,14 45:24 58:16 59:21 72:17 83:6,15 89:12 96:7,20 102:12 103:20 104:21 107:2 109:2 111:4 113:8 136:16 137:3 144:11 147:23 166:17 168:16 173:10 175:23 178:3 179:14 182:3 objected 98:15 objection 107:1 124:19 137:11 138:6 166:24 objections 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158:18 161:18 166:13 169:4 176:11 191:21,22 193:2 194:20, 22 197:11 out 14:17 20:2 23:7,25 30:2 33:6 36:23 37:6 55:3,11 67:8 75:4,5 79:17,22 89:16 90:3 98:18 103:13 105:21 106:10 113:5,20 115:11, 15,18 117:7,8 143:17 145:24 146:24 147:1,19 148:4,7,18,22,24 150:25 152:22 157:6 158:19 161:7 166:7 168:7 169:6, 6,7,23 174:7 178:2,5 184:12 193:13 197:5 outcome 10:15,19 13:20 15:7,9 157:15 outdated 27:23 outgo 50:25 outline 71:24 72:3 outside 17:7 21:10,11 23:6 39:20 119:6 125:11 outweigh 99:13 over 17:20 18:2,3,7 27:25 31:2,8 33:21 45:22 46:11,13 52:17 56:13 57:14 70:4 109:20 113:13 117:19,20 129:6 132:20 141:23 144:4 149:5 152:10,22 157:23 158:8 171:1 174:6,9 186:13 oversee 119:25 oversight 108:14 oversimplification 157:2 owe 184:3 Owens 141:13,15,24,25 own 44:3 88:4 117:10 133:19 134:21 148:25 167:9 180:25 196:11 204:21 ' owned 84:7 owner 147:17 owners 120:25 195:6 Oxford 32:13 -P- P-O-R-P-H-Y-R-I-A 87:1 page 128:5 129:6,6 143:1, 4 184:10 209:1 210:1 paid 89:10 194:6,7,8 paper 184:20 192:4 paragraph 129:9 parameters 155:5,7,16 parathion 31:23 Pardon 22:24 part 5:16 9:15 11:7 27:3 33:18,23 38:15 53:22 66:23 74:22 76:2,8 105:9 108:18,21 109:6 110:3, 17,19 111:21 113:19 116:5,9,10,19 127:12 128:16 136:22 141:20 144:19 149:20 152:21 157:15 160:3 161:8 174:24 175:17,18 182:11 189:23 195:1 196:14 notarial - part 14 HARTOLDMONO014766 200:23 part-per-billion 48:18 111:17 170:13 participant 26:24 participate 202:23 203:1 participated 183:2 particle 55:8 particles 40:19 particular 20:5 24:3 39:19 41:2 55:12 69:17 80:20 82:20,20 90:10 96:17 97:21 98:1,3 99:5,8 104:7 108:12 120:22 125:14 126:7 130:25 140:16 145:3,3,4,5 148:1, 17 156:20 187:19 196:3 202:7 particularly 27:2 40:5 57:18 98:6 116:6 168:9 parties 74:6 partly 110:16,18 parts 38:17,24 39:7,10,15 45:22 46:11 52:17,17 54:11,16,24 55:2,21 69:21 109:20 147:14 151:1,1 158:21 160:21 167:19 205:9 past 17:20 18:2,3,8 24:6 27:25 31:2,8 33:21 36:16 71:23 171:1 174:9 pathway 147:4,6 193:22, 23,24 pathways 146:5 pay 196:15,16 200:12 paying 103:18 150:12 payment 200:15 PCB 9:23 19:25 20:3,23 22:13 24:7 25:6,25 26:1, 1,3,25 27:16 28:7 29:8 42:18 49:1 51:2,4 52:2, 23 56:21 57:25 59:9 60:23,24 64:12 67:23 70:15 80:12,16 81:24 85:23 87:25 93:6 96:18 97:14 98:7,10,20 107:21 108:18 118:7 134:18 136:13 139:15 149:13 158:16 159:14 160:1 168:20 177:3 185:20,22 186:17 187:4 205:19 PCB-related 9:24 126:23 PCB-spedfic 19:17 PCBs 9:1,5,9,12,13,17 10:6,11,21 11:21 12:2,18, 19.22 14:19 16:17 17:6,8 18:19,23 19:4,15,23 20:7, 15.22 22:8,8,16 23:13 24:19,21 25:3,23 26:6,10, 14.22 27:4,11,15 28:1,19 29:9 31:14,16 32:6,8,10, 13,21 33:4,21 34:7,9,13, 18.20.22 35:14,15 37:13, 19,2038:3,4,6,9,10,12 39:15 40:4,16 41:2,6,17 42:6,11,16,23 43:8,18,24 44:6,9,18 45:8,20,21 46:11,18,21 47:5 48:13 49:4,22 50:1,17 51:4,12, 18.25 52:10,13,14,22 53:12 54:15 55:13,15,23 56:20 57:3,7,9,12 58:13, 21,23,24 60:11,18,22 61:2,16 62:18 63:2,3,4,5, 6.10.12.14.25 64:4,9,15 65:6,14,24 66:10,17,21 67:3,22,23,25 68:7,8,9, 20.23 69:2,14 70:3 71:17 72:23,24 73:3,6,14,21,22 74:4,11,12,14,16,19 75:21 79:15,16,19,22 80:7,10, 11,18,19 82:22 83:5,10, 13 84:8,10,14,15,16,23,25 85:1,3,8,15,17,19 86:8, 13.24 87:13 90:3,14,21 91:17 92:6,19,22 93:11, 18 94:1,5,5 95:3,20 97:9 99:7 101:7,10,13,23 102:1,4 103:6,8,15 104:2, 3.12.17.19.25 105:2,15,23 106:1,13 107:16,20 109:13,24,25 110:20 111:1,22 113:2,13 116:6 117:6,7,10,25 118:10,14 120:8,19 121:8,12,17 123:24 124:25 126:1,5,6, 19 127:6 131:24 134:11 135:9 138:11,18,21 145:11 146:4,5,23 148:19 149:1,12,18,25 151:13 152:4,5,24 153:4,19,24 157:4 158:13,23 159:6,9, 14 160:9,12 167:19 168:6,12,13,22 169:16 170:4,20 171:5,11,18 172:15 173:4 174:4,6,8,8 176:7,12,15,20 177:9 178:7,12,13,17 179:12 180:8 181:25 182:16 185:18 186:5 187:22 193:18 194:8,12 197:9, 12.17.24 203:13,17 205:2,9 PECK 29:22 37:23 43:4,14 44:24 45:24 46:2 58:16 59:21 65:1 72:17 83:6, 15.20.24 84:3 89:12 93:15 96:7,20,24 98:16 102:12 103:20 104:21 106:16,19,23 107:2,8,12, 15 109:2 111:4 113:8 114:21 115:13 124:11,17 127:13 136:16 137:3,11 138:6 140:25 141:13,16, 18,22 142:3,5,11 144:11 147:23 149:2 150:9,12 152:2 153:7 159:19,23,25 160:25 165:21 166:17,24 168:16 170:6 173:10,16 174:10 175:23 178:3 179:14 182:3 188:6,8,10 189:14 191:7,9,12,25 192:11 193:2 198:16 199:11 205:24 Pell 72:4 99:2 132:7 159:15 190:11 192:13 penalty 207:10 pending 6:1 10:3,4 people 7:3 17:2 24:5 28:8, 12.14 30:18 32:22 34:4, 13 36:10 55:1 66:16 67:3 68:22,23 69:3,4,6 70:24 79:2 83:18 87:11 89:16 94:5 96:13 112:24 116:5,8,20 124:3,8 141:23 142:1 154:8,16 160:12 161:16,17,19 169:4,7 174:12 183:8,14 184:19 195:14 197:9 198:11 199:15 201:14,19 202:2,10,15,16,18,19,25 203:2,4 204:10,12 people's 27:4 88:1 90:6 97:25 150:5 201:23,25 203:8 per 18:7 38:15,17,24 39:7, 11.15 45:22 46:11 52:17, 17 54:11,16,24 55:2,21 69:21 74:22 76:2 108:18, 21 109:6,20 110:3 147:14 151:1,1 158:21 160:21 167:19 205:9 perform 21:17 performed 21:9,20 27:9 97:13 156:14 182:15,20 201:7 performing 114:10 183:24 185:15,17 perhaps 103:18 130:3 163:22 171:6 period 17:22,24 62:10,18 79:16 92:10 periodicals 19:2,4,17 periods 60:20 61:18 82:14 peripherally 171:16 perjury 207:10 permanent 147:10,12 permission 167:3 203:5 permit 111:22 137:25 138:2,10,13,14,16,19 139:1,18 140:4,4,5,7 permits 135:8 138:14 139:13 permitting 135:8 persist 80:8 81:13,20 82:13 113:3 persistent 47:8 63:25 80:24 81:1,5,6 82:2,16,21 85:21,22,23 109:24 person 16:15,25 18:12 22:15 26:5 28:15 59:22 76:25 78:19 125:14 126:5,8,17 131:21 135:2 148:17 156:19 164:2 178:17,18,19 personal 205:2 personally 11:11 persons 17:7 28:11 30:11 68:16 perspective 144:23 Perspectives 19:12,24 pertaining 5:5 Pete 204:24 Ph.D 7:23 8:10 87:19 88:14 95:22 96:1 99:17 100:1,14 175:12 phase 10:17 195:22 phased 195:18,24 Philadelphia 192:17 phone 17:5,8 PHONETIC 39:9 125:17 132:17 199:12 photodegraded 86:4 physical 101:1 176:20 physically 39:24 75:4 physicians 94:1 98:2 pick 158:9 piece 95:15 pipe 40:21 place 27:11 85:13 120:12 135:23 142:23 147:15,15 171:11 172:22 175:16 190:6 placed 56:13 57:3 59:14 places 108:21 109:5,7 placing 38:2 117:18 Plaintiff 5:2,6,16 PLAINTIFF'S 127:11 150:4 182:10 189:22 199:9 200:22 plaintiffs 5:25 10:12,18 150:7 plan 36:3,5,9 38:20 104:8, 10 196:14,16 197:8,11 planned 172:2 planning 150:24 plans 119:8 136:6 146:13, 14 plant 9:1 10:21 12:9 14:5 17:23 18:14 25:6,16,22 26:14,21 28:5,16,24 29:12,19 30:8,12 32:5,18 35:5 36:10,15,23 37:3,14, 22 40:9,10,14,17,18,22,22 41:3,7,20,22,24 42:8,13, 16 43:9,10,20 53:15 55:16,19 56:19 57:1,2 58:13,22 62:10,18,19 63:1,6,13 64:1,20,25 73:13,20 77:19,20 78:4 79:2 80:22 81:24 82:5 83:21,21,25,25 85:5 105:24,25 106:14 107:21 111:3,16 116:6,16 117:5 118:25 128:19,19 129:14 132:20 134:8 135:13,17, 24 136:10,15 138:12 139:18,22 148:20 149:8, 9,10,10,11,13 153:20,21 163:8 170:6,9,16 179:25 192:13 194:10 195:20 196:4 198:22 199:10 201:7 202:11 plants 66:21 78:20 play 83:19 112:25 please 128:2 182:13,14 point 8:6 32:25 36:6 37:18,21,21 39:25 40:24 41:13 42:3 43:6,13 45:3 SCRUNCHTM index part-per-billion - point 15 HARTOLDMONO014767 53:18 54:2,3 56:11 59:18 65:23 84:5 85:21 87:17 89:23 98:10 103:5 105:2, 3 106:22 108:12 110:25 116:20 119:8 134:23 150:18 157:13 158:14 160:20 170:13,21 174:21 178:17,18 183:22 186:13 188:2,5 197:1 200:19 205:6 Pointer's 141:22 points 53:25 180:13 policy 134:16,20 Pollutant 137:24 Pollution 137:1 polychlorinated 8:25 153:12 ' populations 91:16 93:25 Porphyria 87:2,3,5 93:5,12 portion 81:12 94:20 portions 142:14 poses 157:11 position 9:7 30:9 106:24 166:13 189:11 194:14,15, 20,22,23 196:2 positive 116:25 117:1 148:11,16 163:5 possibility 29:16 73:18 120:19 possible 13:4 44:11,12 66:16 69:9 80:16 87:2,13 148:19 186:1 possibly 68:17 156:23 posted 177:11 178:21 posts 157:11 potential 30:5 41:9 50:20, 21 51:6 73:22,24 74:4,10 81:6,7,20 82:8,10,13 103:9 105:9,24 108:10 112:15 118:1,3,6,14 136:14 144:1 145:2 146:5,19 147:3 148:23 151:7,16,18,20 159:8,11, 12 169:17 170:24 190:19 195:19 potential's 73:25 potentially 74:6 114:17 157:11 171:12 pounds 35:3 41:2 43:1 62:21 64:9 70:3,13 174:7 PR 178:1,4,18 practice 34:3 78:3 101:21 185:3 practices 120:5 pre-1978 39:23 prearranged 191:4 precautions 67:4 120:11 prefer 134:22 preparation 27:21 71:5 156:2 prepare 11:17 36:8 71:4 99:11 125:9 131:7 prepared 6:7,9,10 27:19 72:8 99:15 141:2 142:9 172:8 188:14 190:22,25 191:1 201:18 preparing 11:15,16 125:10 scrunchTM index 130:21 156:4 186:5 191:1 presence 37:13 58:24 72:23 75:19 104:2 124:25 127:6 168:12,22 169:22 present 7:5 16:12 30:14 43:18,22,24 44:18 71:25 72:1 83:5 104:8 116:24 181:17 190:12 204:17 presentation 204:15 presented 204:10 presenting 65:14 presently 6:17 42:6 73:14 135:16 160:13 president 132:18 169:4 press 28:14,15 33:19 presumably 40:19 112:14 196:21 197:15 200:19 presume 109:16 138:7 pretty 133:19 176:8 prevent 117:24 118:1 139:6 175:21 previous 60:16 137:19 140:17 141:9 previously 45:15 Primarily 22:7 30:13 31:10,17 35:13 36:13 110:19 119:14,24 126:1 130:25 142:18 161:16 181:3 202:21 primary 16:15 22:25 23:2, 3,4 24:18 98:8 100:25 Primm 13:14,15 printed 141:7 prior 27:24 59:24 64:16 119:13,17 126:20 142:8, 22 149:9 162:24 203:4 privacy 200:3 privy 115:5,6 probable 60:12 159:5 Probably 17:25 18:10 23:15 24:1 27:12 29:2 32:4 39:4 41:11 43:5 55:24 60:14 82:3 94:19 112:4 120:16 125:2 127:18 132:4 136:3 154:18 155:24 162:10 167:20,21 171:2 179:1 197:20 204:20 problem 153:19 167:21,25 194:1 205:8,12,21 Procedure 5:5 114:15 procedures 119:5 proceeding 14:14 15:7 process 31:12 56:22 72:19 76:13 87:6 102:18,19 103:13,25 104:12,14,23 105:17 108:8 110:18,19 111:13,20 112:3,7 113:19,20 114:17 116:2, 4,13,14,19 117:2,16,23 118:25 120:13 143:6,11 144:19 147:3,8,9 148:22, 24 149:13,20 150:20 151:3,8 152:21 155:8 157:16 158:20 163:25 171:15,22 172:4,13 175:18 195:1 196:21 processes 51:1 56:19 produce 86:9,14 produced 5:15 62:4 70:4, 13 product 61:10 63:20 189:16 production 34:20 53:6 55:15 62:10 171:8 products 80:20 82:6 187:10 professor 47:24 profile 185:6 program 116:24 202:16,22 203:1,7 programs 57:13 135:11 155:14 prohibits 138:17,18 project 26:21 85:7,12 100:4 102:18 106:6 projections 151:6 projects 26:13,17,18,19 27:8 77:11 136:22 prompt 112:5 pronouncements 169:14 proper 63:14,18 properties 12:17,21 22:8 35:15 47:16 71:12 118:24 128:13 176:21,21 property 55:14 56:4 83:4, 13,16,17 84:7,11 85:3,9, 10,16 102:17 117:3,10, 11,13,18,25 118:8,13,16 119:1,6 120:25 121:14, 15,19128:20 130:7,8 147:17,21 148:2 149:1 157:18 160:14 167:9,16 170:5 171:6 180:22 195:6 200:7 202:15.22 203:1,6 proposal 112:19 161:11,12, 14 163:21 197:8,11 200:12 proposals 103:10,12 155:3 158:19 196:20 propose 104:16 108:12 110:5,6 155:3 180:23 197:6 proposed 112:21,21 143:9 172:5 194:21 proposing 31:12 76:9 104:4 196:17 protect 66:24 120:6,22 protected 175:8,11 protection 120:4 Protective 132:16 152:10 protocol 75:25 prove 193:14 provide 11:20 67:18 70:16 71:16 95:23 155:1 156:12 provided 70:25 71:22 140:12 provision 200:3 provisions 5:4 proximity 35:1 36:15 164:20 prudent 101:6,9 Public 5:10 7:11 22:16 23:1,12,22,25 24:7 27:5 28:13 30:22 55:1 65:18 66:13 68:6,7,25 71:25 72:1,15 98:6,23 99:1 116:22 122:7,9,12,13,20, 21 123:6,9,11,16 124:22, 24 126:22 127:3,4 128:7, 13 129:20 130:1,2,3,8,12, 20 132:6 134:17 168:5 169:7,13 177:22 178:16 179:18,24 180:7,14 181:10,23 200:2 201:2 206:3,25 207:25 publication 20:3 publications 27:20 publicly 65:21 published 19:23,25 20:1, 14,19 186:1,19 puppies 92:18,21 puppy 92:14,16 purchase 202:15,22 203:1 purchased 15:14 117:14 Purdue 7:20 pure 67:3 purpose 125:21 187:19 190:17 191:3 pursuant 5:4 206:5 put 42:17 66:8 67:2 84:12 113:22 121:24 127:17 150:9 152:9 157:5 167:4 174:11 193:13 putting 174:6 -Q- quail 52:24 qualified 21:25 22:2.5 97:15,16,19 99:22 qualify 107:18 question 25:25 28:20 37:23,25 43:4,15 45:24 48:3 49:11,12,24 52:11 58:17 59:21 60:3 61:15, 23 67:24 72:17 73:11 74:3 78:25 79:10,12 81:14,23 83:6,15 89:12 90:25 96:7,20,25 97:3,11, 16 98:14,19,21 99:10 101:8 102:12 103:20 104:21 105:16 107:3,3,6 109:3,17 111:4 113:8,9 114:21,23 115:7 129:5 132:1 135:14 136:16 137:3 144:11 147:23 148:13 166:17 168:17 173:10,24 174:2,3 175:23 176:4 178:3 179:14,15 181:2 182:3,4,7 184:21 190:25 192:16 199:17,22 205:20 questioning 30:1 questions 23:18 27:5 28:18,21 41:14 46:16 49:25 59:5,10 69:12 72:10 98:7,11,12 99:8 Pointer's - questions 16 HARTOLDMONO014768 106:7 110:7 115:21 116:21 119:12,23 120:14 130:15 131:24 132:3,5 161:5 187:22 190:20 191:2 199:15 quick 65:1 quickly 144:6 171:20 quiet 168:12,22 199:16 quit 29:18 149:11 quote 34:18 63:11,11,18 193:21 202:4 quoted 23:21 99:4 -R- R-C-R-A 59:24 rabbits 52:24 radio 42:18 raised 67:10 . raising 105:18 ranges 61:5 rapidly 62:2 112:11 rarely 98:24 99:1 rat 20:24 51:24,25 92:10 187:5,8 rates 53:8 rather 11:9 49:4 66:24 74:10 rats 21:18 51:25 52:10 182:15 183:24 185:4 RCRA 58:1 59:24,24 102:19 110:17 116:4 149:20 155:8,18,25 172:13 195:1,10 RE 208:3 209:3 210:3 reach 89:11 reached 89:4,6 95:6 reacted 168:5 read 6:9 48:9,10,12 53:10 62:13 88:7,9 89:19 95:14 96:2 97:20 99:22 109:13 127:21 128:3,23 131:4 138:17 153:15 176:19,22 177:1 193:14 207:4 208:8,10,12,14,16,18,20, 22 209:8,10,12,14,16,18, 20.22 210:8,10,12,14,16, 18.20.22 readily 40:6 reading 39:13 88:1,11 99:18,19 100:21 123:24 128:21 136:5,6,6 172:18 reads 96:5 real 9:22 90:19 129:7 135:7 192:1 realize 66:10 realized 117:6 really 13:3 16:2 18:11 26:17 49:7,10 52:3,9 56:9,10 58:6,8,15 69:17 76:10,15 79:5 99:24 118:19 120:21 123:8 124:7 139:14 181:12 reason 23:17 58:11 62:2 66:6 67:2 79:10,12 108:17,24 110:14 128:25 178:5 196:3 200:5 203:3 reasonable 41:5,25 42:5 109:25 reasonably 43:10 109:11 175:1 reasons 18:14 31:9 101:20 110:21 187:25 recall 7:14 9:23 11:13,25 12:23 13:1,7 15:10 25:16 30:16 38:14 46:25 47:4 48:2,8 54:8 71:18 77:21 78:7 83:24 92:25 93:2,3 99:7 125:12 127:2,3 128:8 129:23 130:23 131:1,20 179:7 186:2,5 190:3 201:1 recalling 30:23 receive 17:9 19:15,18 200:16 received 7:19 127:12 131:2 182:11 189:23 200:17,23 receiving 128:8 193:5 201:1 recent 58:8 145:11 162:23 recently 71:19 77:22 85:11 128:24 140:9 170:4,10 181:15,18 receptors 146:25 147:1 RECESS 118:21 recitation 142:19 recognize 128:16 190:1 recollect 128:12 recollection 7:18 15:19 29:7 30:6 32:10 33:14 78:2 130:11 132:7,9 164:17 recollections 29:15 recommend 144:9 recommendation 156:25 recommendations 155:2 173:9 recommended 148:8 recommending 154:24 172:9,11 record 5:21,24 96:22 113:22 114:5 127:12,17 130:4 167:5 182:11 189:23 193:3 200:21,23 record's 73:19 recovery 151:16,25 153:25 recycler 159:14 redistributed 79:18 reduce 64:22,23 120:18 169:21 reduced 79:21 reentering 153:14 refer 8:25 85:12 referenced 96:18 124:24 referred 28:17,21 123:10 refers 178:11 refreshes 130:11 regard 19:23 28:18 115:3 119:11 180:16 202:17 203:7 regarding 9:9,11,17 10:5 12:2,7,20,21 14:2 17:6 18:16 20:6,14 22:13 24:7,19,20 26:10,14,22 27:11 28:1,16 30:12 31:14,15,16 33:20,21 35:11 37:19 56:13 57:6 63:2,3 65:6 67:4 71:17 92:6 97:13 98:20 123:24 126:19 130:12 133:15 134:18 135:16,24 136:13 168:12 179:25 182:16 186:5 190:20 204:7,13 regime 79:1 Register 19:23 Registry 60:10 regularly 19:2 20:6 184:24 185:1 regulated 194:1 regulations 39:16 40:2 58:1,9 59:19 60:2 187:23,24 regulators 18:18 65:19 155:12 regulatory 28:11 30:11,11 31:11 39:11 69:24 71:22 103:11 104:9 108:13 138:2,11 rejected 103:12 relate 32:8 153:17 related 53:2 76:22 133:22 relating 67:22 97:14 134:24 197:12 relations 178:16 relationship 6:23 relationships 118:6 relative 50:24 54:1,4 relatively 54:11 62:24 relayed 23:8,11 release 27:19 63:14 65:24 117:24 118:2,7 169:18 released 14:20 62:5,8,9,17, 19 63:10,13 67:6 81:24 releases 27:15,17,25 33:19, 19 101:10,20 169:21 relocation 200:12 203:2 rely 19:2 20:6 88:18 167:24 relying 156:10 remain 147:15 remaining 10:18 remedial 27:1 77:11 102:22 103:10 104:5 143:8 144:16 146:11,16 196:9 remediate 35:18 36:14,17 39:1 102:1,4,16 103:1 112:1 117:17 135:12 163:22 180:22 197:7 remediated 36:18 37:3 remediating 25:3 115:2 Remediation 17:4 24:12,19, 21 25:1,5,10 26:3,5,6,9, 13.19.21 27:1,10 28:5,8, 10.20.21 35:21,23,25 36:4,5 37:5 38:20 76:22 103:19 106:5 108:10 110:11 112:22 116:2,3 135:2,4,5,15 136:9,20,22 146:14 154:6,17 158:19 162:6,8 194:15,25 195:12,16 remediation's 170:25 remediations 9:12 63:4 remedy 112:15,15 151:10, 13 remedy's 154:23 remember 9:21 10:9 11:3 13:3 14:8,10 16:2 21:13, 16 22:2 53:9 55:5 116:23 120:16 122:2 124:7 128:21 141:11 186:6,8,9 190:14 193:9 removal 38:10 remove 171:5 removed 38:5 39:3,5,22,24 121:7,11 149:10 172:16 173:14 198:21 removing 171:18 173:4 174:4 render 207:7 renting 6:25 repeat 101:8 report 22:17 47:19 48:9 77:5 79:3 87:2 90:11 97:8,10 131:7 133:7 164:3,4,5 165:15 166:1 182:14 183:1 185:23 186:4 188:14,19 193:7 201:9 204:2,18 reported 44:1 90:16 101:17 180:10 Reporter 5:10,17 190:3 191:4 193:6 Reporting 5:8 65:17,19,20 139:18 165:19 206:7 reports 9:9 60:16 63:2 86:20 93:5,8,18 133:15 154:20 186:2,18,19,20 187:17,20 204:13 repository 80:5 represent 107:20 150:6 represented 13:6 representing 5:25 7:6,9 13:13 represents 91:15 153:7 reproduce 93:9 reproductive 86:10 88:16, 23 89:17 97:13 request 23:8 require 70:22 required 146:16 157:6 196:6 requirements 8:8 39:12 140:6 requires 138:14 172:13 Research 60:13 100:4 115:15 researcher's 88:15 reseeded 121:24 reserve 114:19 reserved 114:9 reserves 114:18,25 115:1 residents 201:7 residue 21:21 resolution 14:14 15:9 resource22:18 23:5 28:8 116:24 scrunchTM index quick - resource 17 HARTOLDMONO014769 resources 97:24 respect 126:18 respond 23:6 67:21 123:20,25 124:1 171:20 responded 123:19 responding 123:17 response 23:12,13 35:19 69:11,13 125:9,10 178:6 193:9 responses 125:20 responsibilities 166:7 responsibility 15:22 24:18 40:8 102:2,11 104:18 120:1 135:10,19 158:23 162:24 responsible 11:8 14:8 25:2 28:9 72:13 74:6 76:25 102:8 103:17 154:8 161:9 rest 171:21 199:1 restate 39:19 restricted 15:20 result 87:25 96:18 117:4 results 44:17 45:14 92:24 94:13,24 137:22 182:25 201:6,10,19 202:2 204:2, 5,6,7,14 resume 76:18,24 retained 60:19 61:17 return 94:8 returned 184:16 review 33:19,23 88:19 131:7 135:6,18 168:20 192:3 reviewed 27:24 44:13 63:1 125:6 138:3 182:25 183:3 reviewing 9:8 129:11 RFI 143:6,10 171:21 172:4 ridiculous 107:3,23 right 9:13 10:1 13:11,19 16:7,21 18:4,20 21:16 23:10 25:18 26:8 27:6 34:14 36:21 37:1,4,8,10 38:20 42:4 45:6,9,13 46:10,14 49:15 51:19 52:13 59:22 62:20 66:4 74:5 75:16 76:17 81:23 83:3,13,14 84:3 85:13 88:1 90:1 91:10,14 93:13 94:13 95:6,8 96:19 98:15 105:6 108:24 117:12 121:8 122:5 124:19 126:10 128:20 129:3,12 132:21 134:23 135:3 139:3,4,6 145:24 149:12, 19 151:3,5 157:19 162:13,15 167:25 169:8 170:17 173:9 175:19 179:3 185:9 186:22 189:5 193:11 194:20 196:18,20 198:12,15 201:8,11,11 203:12 205:24 ring 60:25 61:21 166:12 Risk 19:13,14 69:6 101:21 112:6,14 144:19,22,24 145:1 146:6,10 147:1,2 157:10 risks 157:12,14 river 75:12 153:13,14,19 rivers 168:22 ROBERT 5:3,14,22 77:13 128:6 206:8 207:3,19 208:2 209:2 210:2 rock 75:18 role 56:11 67:17 77:25 roll 52:8 152:21 room 127:14 rough 192:1 roughest 191:17 routine 186:8 routinely 186:7 RPR 206:3 rule 61:25 148:18,21 Rules 5:5 ruling 148:24,24 running 170:4 runoff55:13 83:3,4 121:4 171:4 runs 108:20 176:23 ____ -S- sacrifice 184:11 safe 23:24 57:17 193:18 safety 67:4 71:2,8 said 11:12 14:2 29:14 33:12,15,15 34:4,5,6 37:15 40:12 43:17 48:2 61:8 63:1,10 69:7,9 75:23 77:25 81:17 87:17 91:1,18,20 93:17 95:17 97:5 103:24 107:13 113:24 129:1 134:8,10 137:17 145:21 162:9,10. 12 169:5,5 181:24 191:15,25 193:6,11,20,21, 25 194:5,18 sales 15:20 34:20 same 16:22 32:22 35:13 66:12 78:24 79:4 88:19 95:16 98:3 122:5 124:23 127:5 137:11 138:6 162:23 163:13 164:18,20 165:5 166:24 189:11,13 196:5 204:11 206:12 207:7 sample 44:13,15 45:10 203:5 samples 29:3,6,8,9,19,24 30:7 44:20,21,24 45:2,4, 5,17 46:6,9 53:13 74:23 75:1 76:1 84:20 119:22 185:24 187:3,5,12 188:18 sampling 43:18 55:17 75:25 117:4 197:5 San 14:14,18 16:3 22:1 sanitized 201:22 202:4 sat 28:8 satisfies 52:11 saw 179:1 saying 30:2 86:2,7 102:25 103:4 147:19 159:23,25 172:14 182:2 193:16 scan 88:8 scenario 105:9 scheduled 132:11 school 8:6,19 101:4 Schroeder 5:8 206:7 Science 7:19 19:10,12 102:5 194:7 sciences 188:3,25 189:2,6 scientific 12:18 18:25 65:20 88:22 89:2,8 95:25 96:3 97:17 176:5 scientist 99:14 scientists 88:18 scope 156:5 Scott 183:6 screw 113:4 script 67:20,20,21 seal 206:17 search 20:9,10,11 second 93:24 134:6 184:10 202:24 seconds 204:23 sediment 40:19 44:13,14,24 45:2,3 49:4,10 52:16,21 53:13 55:22,25 74:17,18 75:19,22 76:7 108:7,9,19 117:8 146:20 151:17 152:7,15 153:16 154:1 158:11 187:6 196:12 198:1,9 sediments 38:4,6,10 39:5 43:19,20,23 49:17,19,20 74:14 105:5,24 111:15 117:6 118:11 146:21,22, 22 152:10,14 153:12,14 176:16 187:9 see 34:4 68:16,17 115:14 125:1 129:9 145:23 149:25 150:24 152:18 153:19 159:19 160:4 164:11 166:16 177:23 183:24 188:3,12 202:5 seeded 121:25 seeing 91:23 123:13 127:7 129:2 190:15 seeking 141:19 seem 99:3 seemed 110:15 seems 18:5 75:12 81:11 122:3 seen 33:12,22 62:15 70:5 76:23,24 152:16 166:9,19 178:24 192:4 seldom 19:14 23:6 select 88:6 selected 151:15 154:23 selection 151:10 send 202:3 sends 22:16 senior 77:19,23 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smaller 122:6 smart 184:2 Snow 32:6,9,11,13,22 35:1, 11,12,18,22 36:14,17,19, 24.25 37:4 43:20 44:14 46:3 53:14,15,16 55:14 105:7,25 106:14 111:18 124:24 129:19 130:8 146:3 170:16 So 7:17 9:24 11:25 17:6, 16 18:6,9 19:13 20:2,8 23:24 25:20 29:8,14 31:7 32:23 34:3 36:20 37:3 38:8,20 39:9,13 40:6,22 42:4,11 43:1 48:23,25 49:3 50:25 52:6,11,13 55:4 58:8 59:8,20 60:2 61:5,15 66:20 67:11 69:8 71:23 72:2 73:19 78:12 79:20 80:3,17,21 82:7 83:18 93:10 94:23 98:24 115:20 119:5 121:19 126:24 130:15,22 136:8 137:22 139:8 140:18 142:19,22 145:20 154:20 157:17 158:11 162:5 165:23 171:1 172:14 173:7 175:12,20 176:18 177:2 178:16 179:8,11 180:6 182:7 184:14 186:7,9,25 187:21 188:25 190:22 192:22 193:16 195:5 197:4 199:4 201:21 202:4 206:11 So-and-so's 89:18 so-called 110:10 soaked 121:6 Society 19:13 sodded 121:24 soil 29:9,19 39:15,20 74:23 117:18,23 121:12 175:9 196:11 197:21 198:1 soils 43:19 171:11 sold 70:1 solely 87:25 solubility 48:13,16,21 49:8, 9 50:2,6,7 solubflity/adsorptirity 49:12 soluble 48:17 50:3,4 Solutia 6:18,20,23 7:7,10 8:15,18 9:8,16 15:12 16:13,16,21 18:13 22:14, 15 25:4,9 26:9 27:10 44:18 45:11 79:1 84:7 85:10 102:1,24 111:25 112:9 114:9 126:13 133:22 143:14,21 151:6 154:12 161:1,4,24 162:4, 17 177:20 179:23 194:24 202:15,19 Solutia's 143:5 161:2 solutions 151:13 Some 11:4 15:13 19:6 29:6,11 30:14 31:18 34:5 35:21 38:5,16,21,24 41:11,19,21,23 42:6,9,17, 18 43:13 44:4,7,20,21 45:5,8,14,22 46:6,9,10, 13,20,21 50:22 53:5,11, 11,18,22,24 54:9,13,13,25 55:7,18 56:21,24,25 57:23 59:23 60:21 61:9, 11,11,13,19,19 62:1 64:15 65:9,20 69:22 70:11,13 72:5 74:25 78:13 80:9,11,17,18,23 81:4,5,5,9,11,11,18 83:10 84:10 85:9,10,23 86:3,4,4 87:11 88:10 90:6,12 92:17 93:24 94:4,5,6,19, 20 95:2,5 97:24 99:21 100:22 101:18 103:1,18 106:5,9 108:7,21,21 109:5,22 110:11,16 111:2,13 117:7 119:20, 20,22 138:3,20 139:5 140:18,19,19 141:9 144:17 145:15,23 147:7 148:10,14 150:14,14,23, 24 152:9,10 156:22,24 157:14 159:9 163:20 170:2,13 171:4 174:21 182:18 183:2 186:11,11 187:18 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21:15 23:19 29:10 77:8 162:12 184:10,12 189:20 206:2, 4,8 207:2 stable 47:15,17 80:7 stand 6:16 60:8 129:17 165:3 standard 54:14 69:11,13 114:15 standards 34:17 74:6 standpoint 135:16 stands 129:12 start 24:11 59:18 65:23 148:25 149:7,18 185:9 195:2 started 8:1,8 25:24 30:1 37:7 67:8 105:10 149:9 195:11 starting 118:5 State 5:11,21 12:18 18:18 28:11 30:11 32:16 53:17, 23 71:20 76:21 104:9,9 108:13 111:2 112:20 131:9 135:22 137:22 138:15 148:8 155:19 172:6,9 181:19,20 194:9 206:1,4 207:1 statement 28:15 42:10 64:7 79:24 113:7,10 195:10 statements 23:18 33:20 States 33:3,8 34:10,14,19, 21 54:15 143:4 152:4 stating 124:20 Statute 106:19 108:1 stay 16:17 49:13,23 192:25 stays 197:21 scrunchTM index similar - stays 19 HARTOLDMONO014771 step 110:16 Stephen 30:13,17 steps 112:14 120:18,22 131:3 155:24 164:22 .165:3 Steve 181:3,4 196:1 stewardship 189:17 Stewart's 199:13 still 8:6 31:22 35:16 81:9 83:3,5 109:25 112:23 113:3 158:25 169:23 170:2 189:9 197:13 STIPULATED 5:1 stipulation 206:5 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surface 135:24 surprise 179:17,20 surprised 74:21,24 75:1,21, 24 76:1 179:11 surrounding 138:12 suspect 148:6 160:10 171:1 suspected 29:9 suspended 49:5,14,23 146:21 suspicious 150:2 swimming 198:9 sworn 5:15 206:9 207:22 symptom 93:6 synthetic 117:18 system 48:24 60:17 62:3 76:8 80:22 102:6,20,21 103:6,7,8 104:2,3,3,7,15, 17,25 107:22 108:10,12 137:25 146:3,4,12,23 152:9 157:10,10 169:12 -T- T-U-L-L 32:15--------------- table 26:25 175:15 take 35:17 65:1 100:3,5,16 102:16 116:19 119:22 128:1 131:3 139:5 146:20 155:25 157:6,14 174:10 180:16 188:22 190:6 taken 5:3 29:24 45:17 74:23 75:2,2 76:1 120:18 142:23 171:20 176:2 198:23,25 199:1 206:13 taking 27:11 29:19 51:2 65:12 78:11 85:12 100:19 135:23 149:24 176:11 talk 13:19 26:3,8 27:4 46:5 55:1 62:4 77:24 78:4 99:6 131:21 132:6, 19 134:7,14,25 146:18 152:7 165:12 177:12,24 191:22 204:24 talked 28:2,7 30:23 53:12, 22 70:17,24 73:1 77:18 123:8,15 136:19 161:17 164:14 181:15,18,21 182:15 197:1 talking 31:9 45:25 46:2 57:15 59:1 61:22 63:22 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