Document R211XaJvqZgV43Q8ewKLpr0zX

Hauck v. Asbestos ROUGH DRAFT December 20, 2005 Lewis Bringman ROUGH DRAFT 1 SUPREME COURT: ALL COUNTIES WITHIN THE STATE OF NEW YORK 2 3 IN RE: NEW YORK CITY 4 ASBESTOS LITIGATION 5 This Document Applies To: 6 CHARLES HAUCK DEPOSITION UPON ORAL EXAMINATION OF LEWIS BRINGMAN 7 8 9 10 T R A N S C R I P T of the deposition of 11 LEWIS BRINGMAN, called for Oral Examination in the above 12 entitled action, said deposition being taken pursuant to 13 Rules governing Civil Practice in the Courts of New York, 14 by and before KERRY D. HALPERN, a Notary Public and 15 Shorthand Reporter of the State of New York, at the LAW 16 OFFICES of DeCICCO, GIBBONS & McNAMARA, ESQS, 14 East 17 38th Street, New York, NY 10016, on Tuesday, December 18 20, 2005, commencing at 10:00 a.m. 19 20 21 22 Priority-One Court Reporting Services 23 899 Manor Road Staten Island, New York 10314 24 (718) 983-1234 25 Hauck v. Asbestos ROUGH DRAFT December 20, 2005 Lewis Bringman ROUGH DRAFT Page 10 Page 12 1 A. Yes. 1 Q. How long did you go in the Army for? 2 Q. Are your offices in your home or do you 2 A. Eight months. 3 have offices someplace else? 3 Q. What did you do after that? 4 A. Out of my home when. I work out of my 4 A. I was employed by Koppers Company. 5 home. 6 Q. 7 Okay. Do you have a corporation? 5 Q. So, you first became employed by Koppers 6 Company in about 1960, 1961? 7 A. April 1961. 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. What is the name of the corporation? 10 A. Lewis B. Bringman LLC. 8 Q. April '61. 9 How long did you work for Koppers 10 Company for? 11 Q. Okay. 12 What kind of things do you do in 11 A. Until it was split or until the division 12 that I worked with was to be purchased by environmental 13 consulting on a contract basis for doing this air 13 Elements Corporation, 1983. 14 pollution control work? 14 Q. What did you do after that? 15 A. I assist in the design and the sizing of 15 A. I worked for Environmental Elements 16 electrostatic precipitators primarily to the pulp and 16 Corporation who was the successor to Koppers. 17 paper industry now. I have two general employers. One 17 Q. How long did you work for Environmental 18 of them is in Brazil and one of them is in the United 18 Elements Corporation? 19 States here in Alabama. 19 A. Until June 2003. 20 Q. What is the name of the company that is 20 Q. Is that when you started consulting 21 in Brazil? 21 after that? 22 A. Enfil, E-N-F-I-L. 22 A. Generally, yes. 23 Q. What is the name of the company that is 24 in Alabama? 23 Environmental had a corporate downsizing 24 andI retired. 25 A. AirTek and that is spelled A-I-R capital 25 Q. Okay. Page 11 Page 13 1 T-E-K. Both of those are on contract basis, not an 1 You answered my next question. 2 employee, but on an contract employee basis. 2 A. Okay. 3 Q. Okay. 3 Q. When you first started working for 4 Do you work for any other companies -- 4 Koppers Company in 1961, what was your job? 5 have you worked for any other companies on a contract 5 A. Engineering clerk. 6 basis within the last two or three years? 6 Q. How long did you do that for? 7 A. Yes. 7 A. For two years probably. 8 Q. What other companies? 9 A. Environmental Elements Corporation. 8 Q. What did you do as an engineering clerk? 9 A. Ran the engineering department from a 10 Q. Anyone else? 11 A. International Paper Company. 10 clerical point of view, retrieved drawings, filed 11 drawings, maintained the files, etc., etc. 12 Q. Let me go back a little bit and move 12 Q. All right. 13 forward. I think it will be a little easier to set it up 13 A. Got coffee for everybody. 14 the chronology that way. 14 Q. After -- what job did you next have at 15 Where did you go to high school? 15 Koppers after you were an engineering clerk for about two 16 A. Milford Mills High School. 16 years? 17 Q. Where is that? 18 A. Baltimore County, Maryland. 17 A. Proposal drafter. 18 MR. ROMANELLI: I am sorry. 19 Q. Did you graduate? 20 A. Yes. 19 Can you read that back. 20 (The last answer was read back.) 21 Q. What year? 22 A. 1960. 21 Q. How long did you do that for? 22 A. Five years? 23 Q. What did you do after you graduated 24 Milford Mills High School in 1960? 23 Q. What did you do on a daily basis -- on a 24 regular basis as a proposal drafter? 25 A. Went in the Army. 25 (Interruption by door.) 4 (Pages 10 to 13) Hauck v. Asbestos ROUGH DRAFT December 20, 2005 Lewis Bringman ROUGH DRAFT Page 14 Page 16 1 MR. ROMANELLI: Please read 1 provide, so that I could make our machinery fit within 2 the question back. 2 the confines of the plant drawings? 3 (The last question was read back.) 3 Q. Okay. 4 A. Generate or made drawings of the sizes 4 Would you ever review -- did you ever 5 of the precipitators to be included in the proposals that 5 review any contracts between Koppers Company and any of 6 were sent to customers. 6 the customers? 7 Q. During the five years that you were a 8 proposal drafter for Koppers Company, what customers 9 you interact with, if any? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Did you ever review any of the 9 conditions that they required? 10 A. Generally, the full spectrum of the 10 A. No. 11 industries that Koppers Company was supplying 11 Q. Who, if anyone, would do that? 12 precipitators to steel industry. The major steel 12 A. That was the proposal engineers 13 players, U.S. Steel, Youngstown Steel, Granite City 13 function. 14 Steel, Great Lakes Steel. The major paper companies, 15 International Paper Company, Georgia-Pacific. Cement 14 Q. What were the names of the proposal 15 engineers that you remember working for during that 16 companies Lehigh, etc. 16 five-year period 17 Q. Any power companies? 18 A. Yes. 17 A. Walter West, Charles Strasser, 18 S-T-R-A-S-S-E-R, Clinton Johnson, Henry Wise and the 19 Q. What power companies? 20 A. American Electric Power, Monongahela 19 manager of the operation was Gene Stastny, S-T-A-S-T-l 20 He was the manager. 21 Power. 21 Q. Are any of these -- is Walter West 22 MR. McNAMARA: Can you spell 22 alive? 23 that? If you can't, that is fine. 23 A. To the best of my knowledge, yes. 24 A. 25 easier. How about Allegheny Power, that's 24 Q. Is Charles Strasser alive? 25 A. He just retired, yes. Page 15 Page 17 1 Q. Other than -- did you ever have any 1 Q. Is Clinton Johnson alive? 2 interaction with Con Edison? 2 A. Ido not know. 3 A.Ido not remember specifically Con 3 Q. Is Henry Wise alive? 4 Edison. 4 A. No. 5 Q. Did you typically interact -- with 5 Q. Is Gene Stastny alive? 6 whom -- did you interact with anybody at the customers 6 A. Ido not know. 7 while you were doing the drawings? 7 Q. After you worked as a proposal draft - 8 A. No. It was all in-house with the 8 let me ask you a different question. 9 proposal engineer and the sales engineer. 9 Do you know the names of any of the 10 Q. Would the proposal engineer, ifyou 10 sales engineers that you worked for? 11 know, interact with the customer at all? 11 A. Yes. 12 A. Yes. 12 Q. Who are the sales engineers that you 13 Q. Would the sales engineer interact with 13 worked for? 14 the customer? 14 A. That would be Richard, the last name is, 15 A. Yes. 15 Dissinger, D-I-S-S-I-N-G-E-R. He is deceased. 16 Q. And you would create drawings based on 16 Q. Okay. 17 your interaction with the proposal engineer and/or sales 17 A. Stuart Edwisel (phonetic) and he is 18 engineer? 18 deceased. Carl Einbrod, E-I-N-B-R-O-D, and he is still 19 A. That is correct. 19 alive. 20 Q. Did you ever review documents that the 20 Q. Okay. 21 customers would provide? 21 Does Carl Einbrod still work for -- let 22 A. No. 22 me ask you another question. 23 Q. Okay. 23 Is Carl Einbrod employed? 24 A. Well, I take that back. I would see 24 A. Retired. 25 drawings of plant layouts that the customer would 25 Q. Retired? 5 (Pages 14 to 17) Hauck v. Asbestos ROUGH DRAFT December 20, 2005 Lewis Bringman ROUGH DRAFT Page 18 Page 20 1 A. To the best of my knowledge- 1 that- 2 Q- Is Walter West employed? 3 A. I do not know- 2 After you worked as a contract 3 administrator, what did you do? 4 Q- Is Charles Strasser employed? 5 A. I heard that he retired this year- 4 A- I went back into proposal engineering5 Q- What was your title? 6 Q- Okay- 6 A- Proposal engineer- 7 And you don't know if Gene Stastny is -- 7 Q- How long did you do that for? 8 A- I do not know his status- 8 A- Until I split to Coppersburg and until 9 Q- You do not know? 10 A- No- 9 Environmental Elements did the leverage buy-out10 Q- What did you do after? 11 Q- Okay- 11 A- The same thing, proposal engineering for 12 For the five years that you worked as a 12 Environmental Elements- 13 proposal drafter, what did you do after that? 13 Q- Letmeaskyouaquestion- Theperiod 14 A- During that time period, Koppers Company 14 from 1980 until your retirement, if I compared -- let me 15 paid my tuition to go to college, and when I graduated 15 ask it a different way- If you compared your -- forget 16 from night school they moved me into the proposal 16 it- 17 engineering department as proposal engineer- 17 During the time '72 to '75 when you were 18 Q- So, you went to college at night during 18 a proposal engineer, what customers did you interact 19 that period of time? 19 with, if any? 20 A- Yes, Johns Hopkins- 20 A- American Electric Power, International 21 Q- Where did you go to college? 22 A- Johns Hopkins- It was local- 21 Paper Company, Georgia-Pacific Corporation, I know Great 22 Lake Steel Corporation- It was --1 was a general 23 Q- Did you graduate from Johns Hopkins? 23 proposal engineer and the next inquiry that came through 24 A- Yes- 24 the door the manager assigned it to the person who was 25 Q- What degree did you get? 25 the least busy- Page 19 Page 21 1 A- Bachelor of the science- 1 Q- Okay- 2 Q- In what discipline? 3 A- Industrial management- 2 What did you generally do as a proposal 3 engineer? 4 Q- Okay5 How long did you work in the proposal 4 A- Took the customer's specifications for 5 his requirements, generated the internal paperwork to get 6 engineering department for? 6 a drawing made by a proposal drafter, and then processed 7 A- Just a couple of years, and then they 7 the paperwork through the estimating department so that a 8 moved me into the contract administration group- 8 price would be generated, wrote the proposal, made sure 9 Q- While you were working in the proposal 10 engineering department, what was your title? 9 it got out the door and it is on time- After the 10 proposal is submitted to the customer, answer the 11 A- Proposal engineer- 11 technical and some commercial questions that the customer 12 Q- After you did that, you went into the 13 contract administration department? 12 would have, interface with the customer during technical 13 presentations either at his facility or his architect 14 A- Yes- 14 engineer's facility- 15 Q- What was your title? 15 Q- In your career, have you ever had any 16 A- Contract administrator- 16 interaction with Con Ed? 17 Q- How long did you do that for? 18 A- Three or four years- 17 A- No18 Q- But, you have had interaction with other 19 Q- When you said a few years as a proposal 19 power generation facilities? 20 engineering can you give me a tighter estimate of that? 20 A- Yes- 21 A- I graduated in 1972, so it was '72 21 Q- Explain to me what you did as a contract 22 through probably '75, and then '75 through probably '80 22 administrator on a regular basis? 23 as the contract group, and then back in the proposal 23 A- After Koppers Company received a 24 engineering- 24 contract, they would take it out of the proposal group 25 Q- Let me just get the time line down after 25 and give it to the contract group- The contract 6 (Pages 18 to 21) Hauck v. Asbestos ROUGH DRAFT December 20, 2005 Lewis Bringman ROUGH DRAFT Page 22 Page 24 1 administrator was pretty much a paper follower, made sure 1 Q. How are records currently maintained at 2 that the schedules were maintained, that the purchasing 2 Beazer slash Koppers? 3 department actually purchased the material that the 3 A. I do not know other than what's in the 4 engineering department requisitioned. Just a general 4 document retention or records file. 5 make sure things get done on time. 5 Q. Do you have any knowledge of who you 6 Q. Okay. 6 contacted there ifyou needed a document -- 7 As a proposal engineer in the beginning 7 A. No. 8 of 1980, were your tasks any different from what you did 8 Q. -- from Koppers. 9 in the 1972 to 1975 period? 9 A. No. 10 A. Only in the respect that the client base 10 Q. Do you maintain any documents from your 11 shifted. I became more of a specialist in the paper 11 work at Koppers in your own personal possession? 12 industry -- 12 A. No. 13 Q. Okay. 13 Q. Do you participate in --1 am fairly 14 A. And did not work in the steel and the 14 sure I know the answer, but I have to ask the question 15 utility industry as much. 15 anyway. 16 Q. When you were working as a proposal 16 Did you participate in looking for 17 engineer from '72 to '75, explain to me how often you 17 documents in response to our inquiry to Mr. McNamara? 18 would visit a power generation facility. 18 A. To McNamara? 19 Let me actually ask a broader question 19 Q. Right. As the lawyer for Koppers. 20 first. 20 A. No. 21 A. Okay. 21 Q. Explain to me what a precipitator is? 22 Q. How often would you visit a customer's 22 A. When you burn a fossil fuel or an 23 facility regardless of the type of customer it was, if 23 industrial -- well, I will use a coal-fired boiler since 24 you can estimate? If you can't, say so. 24 that is what we are talking about. 25 A. You always want to get in front of the 25 When you burn coal, you generate soot or Page 23 Page 25 1 customer to be honest. You know, if you work in front of 1 ash. Intheindustry,thatistermedflyash. Someofit 2 the customer, you have a better chance to get the job. 2 stays in the boiler and comes out as bottom ash. The 3 Q. It's harder to chase you out if they 3 rest of it goes out with the exhaust gas and that is 4 know your face. 4 called -- and that is referred to as the flyash. The 5 A. That's correct. 30 percent of the time 5 precipitator is a mechanical electrical device that is 6 or 30 percent of the projects you actually got to see the 6 between the boiler and the chimney, and it removes a 7 customer. 7 certain percentage of the ash that is entrained in the 8 Q. About how much of that was power 8 gas before it goes up the chimney. 9 generation? 9 Q. Just so the jury and I can understand, 10 A. 50/50. 10 how does the precipitator remove that dust? 11 Q. Okay. 11 A. It works very -- it puts an 12 Did you review any documents in 12 electrostatic charge. Probably an analogy is like a 13 preparation ofyour deposition today? 13 static electricity charge when you rub a balloon on a 14 A. Only the ones that were sent to me. 14 sweater and then sprinkle some dust, the dust will adhere 15 Q. Do you know what they were? 15 to the balloon surfaces. It's the same way only you use 16 A. They were the depositions I think from 16 much higher voltages and much more sophisticated 17 Mary Wright and there were some drawings and -- 17 controls. 18 MR. McNAMARA: By counsel, 18 Q. Was the concept of a precipitator ever 19 they were the interrogatory answers 19 patented? 20 with annexations. 20 A. I do not know. 21 MR. ROMANELLI: Okay, that's 21 Q. Do you know if Koppers had its own 22 fine. 22 research department? 23 Again, everything he has 23 A. Koppers had a research department. I am 24 reviewed I have been provided with? 24 aware of that. 25 MR. McNAMARA: Yes. 25 Q. What did the research department do? 7 (Pages 22 to 25) Hauck v. Asbestos ROUGH DRAFT December 20, 2005 Lewis Bringman ROUGH DRAFT Page 30 Page 32 1 Q- What is the difference? 1 A. Yes. 2 A. Power generation, usually two to three 2 Q. Okay. 3 inches. Lime kilns five to six inches thick. 3 What about with respect to Con Edison? 4 MR. ROMANELLI: Can we go off 4 A. I do not know personally. 5 the record forjust a second? 5 Q. Okay. 6 (Pause in proceedings.) 6 Do you know through any other source 7 Q- Did a precipitator ever contain asbestos 8 pads to your knowledge? 7 whether Con Ed -8 A. No. 9 A. Not that Iam aware of. 9 Q. Just so I am clear, Koppers would hire 10 Q- Did you ever see a precipitator while it 11 was being installed? 10 sheet metal workers. It would hire insulators. But with 11 respect to the Con Ed documents that you have seen, it 12 A. Yes. 12 did not in those circumstances hire insulators or sheet 13 Q. How many times? 14 A. Many. 13 metal workers? 14 A. For the precipitator work, that is 15 Q. Okay. 16 I was going to say you don't have to 15 correct. 16 MR. McNAMARA: When you say 17 give me a number. Just a lot or a little would be fine. 17 hireare you referring to direct 18 What trades would participate in the 18 employee or possibly some contracting 19 installation of a precipitator? 19 or both? 20 A. The building trades, primarily 20 MR. ROMANELLI: Both. 21 boilermakers, electricians, for the steel construction 21 MR. McNAMARA: I want to make 22 pipefitters, insulation contractor, insulators, sheet 22 sure you understand that. 23 metal workers. It depends on the area and which trade 23 Q. Did you understand my question to -- 24 claims the work. 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Okay. 25 Q. -- be as direct employee versus Page 31 Page 33 1 Did Koppers ever hire any of these 1 subcontractor. 2 trades? 2 A. Generally, thermal insulation contracts 3 A. Yes. 3 are let to an insulation contracting company who hires 4 Q. So, did it hire boilermakers? 5 A. I would expect, yes. 4 his own employees and furnishes the material. 5 Q. Understood. 6 Q. Did it hire sheet metal workers? 7 A. Generally or with respect to Con Ed? 6 But, there are circumstances where 7 Koppers would subcontract out the insulation work. Is 8 Q. Generally. 9 A. Yes. 8 that correct? 9 A. That is correct. 10 Q. 11 Con Ed? Is your answer different with respect to 10 Q. How essential are the ducts connecting 11 the boiler to the precipitator? 12 A. Yes. 12 MR. McNAMARA: I will object 13 Q. What's the answer? 14 A. Koppers Company did not furnish the 13 as to the form. 14 You can answer it if you 15 insulation on the Con Ed contracts, therefore, they would 15 understand. 16 not have hired insulation or sheet metal workers. 16 You mean without ducts? 17 Q. I was talking about -- fine. 18 Who supplied the insulation? 17 Q. Would the precipitator work without 18 ducts connecting it to the boiler? 19 A. I do not know. 19 A. No. 20 Q. How do you know what was just told me? 20 Q. Would the precipitator work without 21 A. One of the documents in the files there 21 ducts connecting it to the exhaust stack? 22 shows that the thermal insulation was not furnished by 22 A. No. 23 Koppers Company. 23 Q. Are there any different types of 24 Q. What about did Koppers ever hire 25 electricians? 24 precipitators? 25 Do you understand that? 9 (Pages 30 to 33) Hauck v. Asbestos ROUGH DRAFT December 20, 2005 Lewis Bringman ROUGH DRAFT Page 50 Page 52 1 Q. Where was Koppers fabrication facility? 1 Q. Did the -- were the metal products 2 A. The one that I am familiar with was in 2 division and the engineering construction division 3 Baltimore. 3 separated by the type of products that they made, then? 4 Q. How much of the precipitator would be 4 A. Yes. They were separate divisions of 5 fabricated at that facility? 5 the Koppers Company. 6 A. Time dependent. In today's market, not 6 Q. What I am just trying to understand is 7 very much. Years ago market, very much. 7 whether engineering construction had anything to do with 8 Q. But, in the years ago market, just 8 precipitators? 9 explain to me how they determined -- just exactly what 9 A. Metal products would. In projects where 10 the construction process was? Would they fabricate 10 a precipitator was included in the engineering and 11 pieces at the fabrication facility and just bring the big 11 construction division's facility that they were building, 12 pieces over to the customer or was there certain stuff 12 they would take bids from metal products division to 13 that got fabricated at the fabrication facility, you 13 supply that precipitator. They also took bids from our 14 know, let's say, electrical components? I am just trying 14 competitors. 15 to understand the concept. 15 Q. So, your division was the only division 16 A. The steel fabrication was generally done 16 that dealt with precipitators at Koppers, correct? 17 in Baltimore by the metal products division's fabrication 17 A. In the design and manufacture, yes. 18 shops in Baltimore. Then, it was put on trucks or rail 18 Q. What else, if anything -- what other 19 cars and shipped to the facility where it would be 19 divisions would have anything to do with precipitators? 20 erected. Electrical equipment was primarily purchased 20 A. Within Koppers Company? 21 outside from electrical specialty houses that made 21 Q. Right. 22 transformer rectifiers per se. 22 A. Generally, just the metal products 23 Q. Did Koppers sell replacement parts to 23 division or if the corporation had a manufacturing 24 its customers? 24 facility that needed a precipitator for air pollution 25 A. Yes. 25 control. Page 51 Page 53 1 Q. What types of replacement parts did it 1 Q. Just so I am clear, the engineering 2 sell? 2 construction division, is the only way that it dealt with 3 A. It had a spare parts department that 3 precipitators was through the metal products division, if 4 sold parts that wore out. 4 at all? 5 Q. Well, what about parts that had to - 5 A. Asa supplier or as a 6 when you say "wore out," does that include having to be 6 purchaser-contractor type, purchaser-vendor type 7 replaced during routine maintenance? 7 relationship. 8 A. Yes. 8 Q. So, was it -- okay. 9 Q. Would it ever sell asbestos gaskets to 9 What type of paperwork did Koppers 10 companies, its customers? 10 provide to customers as part of its provision of a 11 A. Asbestos-containing, yes. 11 precipitator? 12 Q. Did it ever provide insulation to - 12 A. General arrangement drawings, so that 13 external insulation to any of its customers as a 13 the customer could maintain the equipment and recommended 14 replacement part? 14 operating procedures and safety procedures manual. 15 A. No. 15 Q. Did each customer get an operating and 16 Q. Did you specifically work for the 16 safety procedures manual? Is that standard practice? 17 engineering and construction divisionof Koppers Company? 17 A. Standard practice. 18 A. No. 18 Q. Okay. 19 Q. You worked directly for Koppers Company? 19 Is there any medical -- were there any 20 A. I worked for the metal products division 20 medical staff personnel at Koppers while you were there, 21 of Koppers Company. 21 let's say, in the period up to -- at any time? 22 Q. What did the engineering and 22 A. Metal products division had a nurse on 23 construction division do? 23 staff and a doctor on call. 24 A. They are a big engineering -- acompany 24 Q. When did the metal products division 25 that built steel mill and other industrial facilities. 25 first have a nurse on staff? 14 (Pages 50 to 53)