Document Qka59jo6ad1aR05ZdYyrBr5J7

r, n Uf\ I ! INS l i I W L. IN THE MATTER OF: Transwestern Pipeline Company vs. Monsanto Company, et aL Cause No. BC 026959 Deposition of W. B. Papageorge November 5, 1992 Gore Reporting Company, Inc, 100 North Broadway, Suite 1175 Saint Louis, Missouri 63102 (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020082 437 1 SUPERIOR COURT 2 FOR THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA 3 FOR THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES 4 5 6 7 TRANSWESTERN PIPELINE COPANY, 8 9 Plaintiff, 10 11 v s NO. BC 026959 12 1 3 MONSANTO COMPANY AND 1 4 DOES 1 THROUGH 200 INCLUSIVE, 15 1 6 De f endants. 17 1 8 Continued deposition of W.B. 1 9 PAPAGEORGE, taken on behalf of the 2 0 Plantiff, at the offices of Bryan Cave, One 2 1 Metropolitan Square, in the City of St. 2 2 Louis, State of Missouri, on the 5th day 2 3 of November, 1992 before Ronald A. Gore, 2 4 Registered Professional Reporter and Notary 2 5 Public. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020083 438 1 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL: 2 3 FOR THE PLAINTIFF: 4 Mr. James P. Tallon 5 Ms. Dana K. Welch 6 Shearman & Sterling 7 725 South Figueroa Street 8 Los Angeles, California 90017 9 1 0 FOR THE DEFENDANTS: 1 1 Mr. Charles F. Preuss 1 2 Bronson, Bronson & McKinnon 1 3 505 Montgomery Street 1 4 San Francisco, California 94111 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020084 1 INDEX 2 PAGE 3 Examination by Mr. Tallon 441 4 5 6 EXHIBITS 7 8 Deposition Exhibit 113 3 453 9 Deposition Exhibit 113 4 454 1 0 Deposition Exhibit 113 5 461 1 1 Deposition Exhibit 113 6 465 1 2 Deposition Exhibit 113 7 469 1 3 Deposition Exhibit 113 8 473 1 4 Deposition Exhibit 113 9 477 1 5 Deposition Exhibit 114 0 500 1 6 Deposition Exhibit 114 1 508 1 7 Deposition Exhibit 114 2 522 1 8 Deposition Exhibit 114 3 525 1 9 Deposition Exhibit 114 4 52 8 2 0 Deposition Exhibit 114 5 529 2 1 Deposition Exhibit 114 6 533 2 2 Deposition Exhibit 114 7 535 2 3 Deposition Exhibit 114 8 540 2 4 Deposition Exhibit 114 9 543 2 5 Deposition Exhibit 115 0 544 439 Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020085 1 Deposition Exhibit 115 1 2 Deposition Exhibit 115 3 3 Deposition Exhibit 115 4 4 Deposition Exhibit 115 2 5 Deposition Exhibit 8 6 8 6 Deposition Exhibit 115 5 7 Deposition Exhibit 115 6 8 Deposition Exhibit 115 7 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 548 550 553 556 561 564 566 569 440 Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020086 441 1 W . B . PAPAGEORGE, 2 of lawful age, having been first duly sworn 3 to testify the truth, the whole truth, and 4 nothing but the truth in the case 5 aforesaid, deposes and says in reply to 6 oral interrogatories propounded as follows, 7 to - wit : 8 EXAMINATION 9 QUESTIONS BY MR. TALLON; 1 0 Qs Good morning, Mr. Papageorge. 1 1 As Good morning. 1 2 Qs During calendar years 1970 and 1 3 1971 did you work with a J.G. Bryant? 1 4 A s Yes. 1 5 Qs What was Mr. Bryant's position in 1 6 1 9 7 0 and 1971, if there was only one such 1 7 position? 1 8 As I have forgotten the official 1 9 designation or title, but he was the 2 0 technical representative in the marketing 2 1 group located in St. Louis that was 2 2 involved with the sales of PCB type 2 3 products to the electrical manufacturing 2 4 industry. 2 5 Qs And during the same period did you Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020087 4 42 1 work with Art Koenig, K-o-e-n-i-g? 2 As Yes. 3 Qs Do you know what Mr. Koenig's 4 position was during the same time period? 5 A: Yes, sir. He was the accountant 6 assigned to the functional fluids business 7 group . 8 Qs The accountant, meaning that there 9 was just one assigned to that group at that 1 0 time? 1 1 A s Well - 1 2 Qs Or that he was the head of it? 1 3 A s He was the head of the accounting 1 4 function that took care of that functional 1 5 fluids business group's accounting needs. 1 6 Qs In 1 9 7 0 and 1971 did Dr. Richard 1 7 have any responsibility for Pydraul 1 8 reformulations ? 1 9 As Yes, he did. 2 0 Qs Was it, indeed, hisultimate 2 1 responsibility to supervise that project or 2 2 series of projects? 2 3 A s Yes. 2 4 Qs So far as you know, Dr. Richard 2 5 had familiarity with the Pydraul product Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020088 443 1 line? 2 A; Yes, he did. 3 Q; Let's mark as -- actually, this 4 is an exhibit already marked in this case, 5 number 750, on October 6, 1992, bearing 6 production number Tran 085106. Just take a 7 moment and review that, please. 8 A : I have read the document. 9 Qs Does this appear to you to be a 1 0 memorandum from Dr. Richard to C.W. Roos, 1 1 dated September 20, 1971? 1 2 As It does. 1 3 Qs And Mr. Roos' position in 1971? 1 4 A s He was the top man in the research 1 5 department of the organic chemicals 1 6 division. 1 7 Qs Was he in some sense Dr. Richard's 1 8 boss or superior? 1 9 A s Well, Dr. Richard reported to Mr. 2 0 Bergen directly, and indirectly to Dr. 2 1 Roos. 2 2 Qs Is that indirect reporting 2 3 function what is sometimes called in 2 4 corporate America a dotted line reporting? 2 5 As That is a typical kind of Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020089 444 1 relationship, yes. 2 Q : In this memorandum Dr. Richard 3 refers to Turbinol 153 as being an 4 exception from the effort to remove all 5 chlorinated biphenyls from Pydrauls? 6 MR . P REUS S: I object to the form, 7 the document speaks for itself. 8 As Well, it is parenthetically 9 written in here that exceptions to that 1 0 replacement program included Turbinol and 1 1 Pydrauls specifically sold to Germany. 1 2 Q : And the title of this memo 1 3 is"Pydraul reformulations"? 1 4 A: That is true. 1 5 Q : You don't think that Dr. Richard 1 6 would have included a reference to Turbinol 1 7 153 in this memo about Pydraul 1 8 reformulations by mistake, do you? 1 9 MR. PREUSS: I object to the form, 2 0 argumentative. 2 1 As Well, as in many business 2 2 relationships there is certain terminology 2 3 has definite and unique meanings within the 2 4 community that works with these products, 2 5 and when Dr. Richard talks to Dr. Roos Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020090 445 1 about Pydrauls, he's really talking about 2 all the products handled by a particular 3 research group. Pydraul, being the 4 overwhelmingly larger activity, is the term 5 used to apply to any activities that that 6 group gets involved with. So the title 7 Pydraul reformulations is almost a generic 8 thing. It does not mean that other 9 products in the group are Pydrauls. 1 0 Qs So that you would say that the 1 1 reference to Turbinol 153 in this memo 1 2 regarding Pydraul reformulations and the 1 3 specific reference to Turbinol 153 as an 1 4 exception from the research effort to 1 5 remove all chlorinated biphenyls from 1 6 Pydrauls does not connote that Turbinol 153 1 7 is a Pydraul? 1 8 A s That is correct. 1 9 Q : Did you know Larry Bradford? 2 0 A : Certainly. 2 1 Q s And Mr. Davidson? 2 2 A : Yes. 2 3 Q : And they were in the functional 2 4 fluids group ? 2 5 A s They we re, yes. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020091 _________________________________________________________________________ 4 4 6 1 Q : We're going to have the reporter 2 -- we don't need to mark that, it's 3 already marked. Their function was in 4 marketing? 5 A : Yes. 6 Q : Let me show you a document that's 7 been previously marked as a Deposition 8 Exhibit in this matter, number 865. 9 As I have reviewed the exhibit. 1 0 Q : Turn for a moment, if you would, 1 1 please, Mr. Papageorge, to the page which 1 2 is numbered at the bottom STR 001825. 1 3 A 5 I have it. 1 4 Q S That's a page titled "Top 20 1 5 customers for Pydraul ? 1 6 A s Yes. 1 7 Q : Have you ever seen that particular 1 8 page before? 1 9 A : Yes, I have seen it. 2 0 Q : That is a list of customers in the 2 1 left column, followed by a list of products 2 2 and then a list of 1971 projected sales in 2 3 terms of pounds and dollars? 2 4 A : Yes. 2 5 Q : And the 12th entity identified is Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020092 447 1 Texas Eastern? 2 A : Yes. 3 Q: And the product is Turbinol 153? 4 As Yes. 5 Qs Does this suggest to you that the 6 marketing people in the functional fluids 7 group treated Turbinol as a Pydraul? 8 MR . P REUS S : Obj ection, calling for 9 speculation, no foundation. 1 0 A : There again, as a product of the 11 group which carried the title Pydrauls in a 1 2 generic fashion in its communications. It 1 3 still doesn't make that a Pydraul. 14 Q : It doesn't have the name Pydraul? 1 5 As That's true. 1 6 Q; It's called Turbinol? 1 7 A : It is. And it never appeared in 1 8 their trade literature and any other 1 9 references to Pydrauls. 2 0 Q : However, it is listed -- Texas 2 1 Eastern is listed as one of the top 20 2 2 customers for Pydraul, is it not? 2 3 MR. PREUSSs The document speaks 2 4 for itself, argumentative. 2 5 A : It does say that. But that does Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020093 448 1 not make it a Pydraul. 2 MR . TAL L ON: Turn, if you would, 3 for a moment, Mr. Papageorge, to the page 4 of this particular exhibit which is 5 numbered STR 001829. Actually, a separate 6 memo randum. 7 As I have it. 8 Q : That appears to you to be a 9 memorandum to Mr. Bradford from Norm 1 0 Johnson? 1 1 A : I t is. 1 2 Qs And you had indicated that Mr. 1 3 Johnson had a sales responsibility in the 1 4 functional fluids group? 1 5 As He was the manager of that group, 1 6 yes, sir. 1 7 Qs And he was theperson from whom 1 8 you believe you got information relating to 1 9 that product, Turbinol 153? 2 0 A s Yes, sir. 2 1 Qs And with respect to its use? 2 2 A s Yes. 2 3 Qs And this memo from Mr. Johnson to 2 4 Mr. Bradford dated November 24, 1971 lists 2 5 accounts which Mr. Johnson apparently felt Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020094 449 1 could require product group participation 2 during the transition to reformulated 3 Pydrauls, correct? 4 A : Yes. 5 MR. P REUS S s The document speaks 6 for itself. 7 MR. TALLON s And one of the 8 customers listed is Texas Eastern 9 Transmission? 1 0 A; That's correct. 1 1 Q : And does that suggest to you that 1 2 the sales function in the functional fluids 1 3 group viewed Turbinol 153 as a Pydraul? 1 4 MR. P REUS S : Obj ection, no 1 5 foundation, calling for speculation, 1 6 argumentative. 1 7 A: No. My comments relating to the 1 8 generic use of the word Pydraul todescribe 1 9 the product line that Mr. Johnson managed 2 0 applies to this document as well. 2 1 MR . TALLON: Do I take it from that 2 2 that the product group would generically 2 3 refer to Turbinol 153 as a Pydraul? 2 4 A : Yes. 2 5 Q : Mr. Papageorge, isn't it the case Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020095 450 1 that Monsanto had a policy of not revealing 2 product composition to customers? 3 As No, I'm not aware that Monsanto 4 had such a policy. 5 Q : Is it not the case that Monsanto 6 had a policy of refusing to disclose the 7 specific blends in products that it sold? 8 As I could cite examples of 9 situations where the ingredients of a 1 0 product were disclosed when requested by 1 1 the customer or when it was important to 1 2 the application. There are situations - 1 3 or there were situations, because of 1 4 competitive reasons, that the exact 1 5 formulation was not revealed, because we 1 6 felt some obligation to keep the 1 7 information from the competition. On the 1 8 other hand, as we did that, we recognized 1 9 that with sophisticated analytical methods 2 0 available to the larger competitors, it 2 1 would only be a matter of time before they 2 2 discovered it, so that policy really was a 2 3 very loose one, where, in most cases, the 2 4 ingredients would be divulged when either 2 5 requested or when it was deemed Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020096 451 1 appropriate. 2 Qs Do you remember testifying in the 3 case of see Cecil Scott versus Monsanto 4 Company in 1987? 5 A : I did. 6 Qs Could you just take a moment to 7 review the transcript of volume 2 of a 8 deposition you gave in that case in May of 9 1987. I'm particularly interested in the 1 0 testimony appearing on page 379, but please 1 1 review as much of the context as you wish 1 2 to in order to familiarize yourself with 1 3 the context. 1 4 A: I have read it. 1 5 Qs During that deposition the 1 6 attorney propounding the questions to you 1 7 asked "whether, in fact, Monsanto had a 1 8 policy of refusing to disclose to even its 1 9 customers the specific blends in products 2 0 that it sold, did it not?" That was the 2 1 question. 2 2 A s That is right . 2 3 Qs And your response was "Yes", 2 4 indicating that Monsanto had a policy of 2 5 refusing to disclose to even its customers Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020097 _________________________________________________________________________ 4 5 2 1 the specific blends in products that it 2 sold, correct? 3 As The key word there is specifics. 4 We did not tell them it was X percent of 5 ingredient so and so. 6 Q : And the attorney propounding the 7 questions also asked in the next question, 8 "And, in fact, even here as we are in May 9 of 1987, almost ten full years since 1 0 Monsanto has last manufactured or sold a 1 1 PCB-containing product, that policy is so 1 2 strong in your mind that you had doubt 1 3 about whether to reveal the constituents in 1 4 one of the PCB-containing Pydraul products, 1 5 correct?" And you answered "Correct." 1 6 A; Yes. Again, that refers to 1 7 ingredients that are added to the mixture 1 8 to attain certain properties, such as 1 9 anti-foaming agents added to improve 2 0 lubricity and all. But the key ingredients 2 1 -- this does not cover the principal 2 2 ingredients, up to 99 percent of the 2 3 produ c t. 2 4 Q : You didn't note that exception 2 5 when you gave that testimony, though, did Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020098 453 1 Y ou ? 2 A: I was not asked to. 3 Q : Let me show you a document bearing 4 production numbers Tran 06315 through 5 6 3 6 1 7, which appears to be a letter to Dr. 6 Herman, dated April 6, 1971 from you. 7 (Deposition Exhibit Number 8 1133 mark'd for identification) . 9 A: I have reviewed the document. 1 0 Q : That is a letter that you wrote to 1 1 Dr. Herman in April of 1971? 1 2 As Yes. 1 3 Qs And one of the things you 1 4 explained or reported to Dr. Herman was 1 5 that as of that date Monsanto's industrial 1 6 and hydraulic fluids have all been 1 7 reformulated to exclude PCBs? 1 8 A: That's what I reported, yes. 1 9 Q : And what was the reformulation? 2 0 Was that with 1016? 2 1 As In 1971, no. No. 2 2 Qs Was 1016 used extensively by 2 3 Monsanto in reformulated products? 2 4 A s No . 2 5 Qs Was it the case that Aroclor 1016 Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020099 _________________________________________________________________________ 4 5 4 1 turned out to have its own toxicity 2 problems ? 3 A: That had nothing to do with the 4 reformulation program. 5 Q : Did you determine or learn at some 6 point that there were toxicityproblems 7 associated with Aroclor 1016? 8 A: There are with all PCBs. Nothing 9 -- there was no new toxicity information, 1 0 really. 1 1 Q : Let me show you a document which 1 2 is dated September 16, 1971, and bears 1 3 production numbers Tran 004966 and 4967, a 1 4 memorandum from C. L. Bradford to you. 1 5 We'll have that marked. 1 6 (Deposition Exhibit Number 1 7 1134 mark'd for identification) . 1 8 A: I have read the document. 1 9 Q: Is that a memo that Mr. Bradford 2 0 sent to you in September of 1971? 2 1 A : I t is. 2 2 Qs Do you, in fact, recall having 2 3 received it? 2 4 As I do. 2 5 Q: It looks like there is a Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020100 455 1 handwritten notation in the upper 2 right-hand corner indicating "PCB-mktg", 3 which may stand for marketing, do you see 4 that? 5 A : I do . 6 Qs Is thatyour handwriting? 7 As It looks like it, yes. 8 Qs Did you have a file in your 9 offices in 1971 titled "PCB marketing"? 1 0 A s I did. 1 1 Qs And was that file established to 1 2 keep track of memoranda or to contain 1 3 memoranda that related to marketing efforts 1 4 with respect to PCB based products? 1 5 A s Yes. 1 6 Qs On page 2 of the memorandum Mr. 1 7 Bradford reports to you with respect to an 1 8 issue relating to Turbinol 153? 1 9 A s Yes. 2 0 Qs And Mr. Bradford reported to you 2 1 that with respect to Turbinol 153, "We do 2 2 not plan to approach Texas Eastern until we 2 3 have received approval from General 2 4 Electric for use of one of our new NC 2 5 esters in gas turbines"? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020101 456 1 A : That's true. 2 Q : What, do you know, is meant by the 3 letters NC that appear before the word 4 esters in the last line of that memo before 5 the signature? 6 A : That's one of the phosphate 7 esters, as I recall. That's the Nonnyl, 8 n-o-n-n-y-1, cumyl, c-u-m-y-1. I'm not 9 certain of the spelling. But it's that new 1 0 phosphate ester that was being developed. 1 1 Q : And, to your knowledge, did Mr. 1 2 Bradford or anyone working for him discuss 1 3 the use of esters as lubricants in G.E. gas 1 4 turbines with G.E.? 1 5 A : Yes. 1 6 Q : And when, to the best of your 1 7 knowledge, did such discussions initiate? 1 8 As I don't know that I ever knew the 1 9 exact date. It had to be sometime after 2 0 the middle of 1971. 2 1 Q : And what is the basis for your 2 2 statement that it had to be sometime after 2 3 the middle of 1971? 2 4 A: Well, earlier in 1971 the research 2 5 work on the new phosphate esters was Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020102 457 1 getting well under way, to the point where 2 some of the phosphate esters were being 3 looked upon as potentially suitable, and 4 it's only when you have that kind of 5 information would the research individuals 6 be ready to propose further testing. And 7 since this occurred in the early part of 8 '71, no one would have been in a position 9 to speak to General Electric until several 1 0 months later. That's how I arrive at that 1 1 date. 1 2 Q : Just for a point of elaboration, 1 3 why is it that you say that no one would 1 4 have been in a position to speak to General 1 5 Electric until several months later? 1 6 As Well, the discussion which would 1 7 take place with a company like General 1 8 Electric would require the spokesman for 1 9 Monsanto to know quite a bit about the 2 0 alternative material, regarding what it is, 2 1 and how much of it is in the proposed 2 2 mixture, how it tested in the laboratory, 2 3 did it meet the fire resistance needs. 2 4 These kinds of things had to be developed, 2 5 and it does take time. It isn't enough Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020103 458 1 just to be able to make the phosphate ester 2 in the and then run to General 3 Electric and say we've got a phosphate 4 ester. They're going to say what do you 5 know about it. 6 Q : Did Mr. Bradford meet with General 7 Electric to discuss the use of NC esters in 8 gas turbines? 9 A : I don't know if Mr. Bradford 1 0 personally did. 1 1 Q : Do you know if someone working 1 2 with or for Mr. Bradford did so? 1 3 A: Someone in Mr. Johnson's group 1 4 did, along with someone from the research 1 5 department, Dr. Richard's group. 1 6 Q : Do you know who those people were? 1 7 A : I do not. 1 8 Q : Do you know if one of them was 1 9 Roger Hatton? 2 0 As I do not know. 2 1 Q : And do you know if one of them may 2 2 have been Lou Shoeff? 2 3 A: I don't know. 2 4 Qi And to the best of your 2 5 recollection, when did those someones meet Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020104 459 1 with representatives of General Electric? 2 As Latter part of '71. 3 Qs Your understanding was that 4 Monsanto was looking at replacing the PCB 5 content of Turbinol 153 with an ester? 6 As That was the objective, yes. 7 Qs And it was determined that before 8 the product could be offered to Texas 9 Eastern General Electric would have to 1 0 approve it for its use in General Electric 1 1 manufactured turbines? 1 2 As I don't know that General Electric 1 3 had necessarily to approve it, but we felt 1 4 it would be to our advantage to have their 1 5 endorsement, that this product does work 1 6 well in the equipment they designed and 1 7 sold. 1 8 Qs When you use the term "to our 1 9 advantage", do you mean that having General 2 0 Electric's endorsement would make the 2 1 product more saleable? 2 2 As Certainly. 2 3 Qs Now, we had touched briefly on a 2 4 product that you referred to as Santovac, 2 5 or Santovac line? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020105 460 1 A : Yes. 2 Qs Those were products used in vacuum 3 pump s ? ' 4 As Yes. 5 Qs And is it your understanding that 6 the vacuum pumps used small amounts of the 7 Santovac product in their operations? 8 A : Yes. 9 Qs Do you know, in fact, whether the 1 0 vacuum pumps were considered by Monsanto to 1 1 be small users, using from one pint to five 1 2 gallons per pump? 1 3 As That sounds right, yes. 1 4 Qs And was it also your understanding 1 5 that the vacuum pumps are under negative 1 6 pressure so that there was no leakage? 1 7 As That's my understanding. 1 8 Qs And what do you understand the 1 9 term negative pressure to mean? 2 0 As That means that the pressure on 2 1 the liquid is such that it will not be 2 2 pushed up into the environment, but, in 2 3 essence, sucked into the system and 2 4 maintained, or retained in the system. 2 5 Qs Let me show you a document which Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020106 _________________________________________________________________________ 4 6 1 1 bears production numbers Tran 090534 2 through 543, and is dated November 10, 3 1970, which we'll have marked. 4 (Deposition Exhibit Number 5 1135 mark'd for identification) . 6 A: I have reviewed the exhibit. 7 Q : The exhibit is one of your 8 periodic PCB environmental problem status 9 reports? 1 0 As It is. 1 1 Q: And this particular one is the 1 2 October 1970 status report? 1 3 A: It is. 14 Qs And this is one of those reports 1 5 that you put together for circulation to 1 6 the group of interested constituents? 1 7 As Yes. 1 8 Qs That's your signature on the last 1 9 page ? 2 0 A s Yes. 2 1 Qs And the discussion -- a portion 2 2 of the discussion on the first page relates 2 3 to marketing? 2 4 A s Yes. 2 5 Qs And, in particular, there is a Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020107 462 1 discussion there regarding the use of the 2 Santovac line of products? 3 A : Yes. 4 Q : Santovac I and Santovac II? 5 A : Yes. 6 Q s There is a sentence there that 7 reads, "the typical pump will use the same 8 charge for one to two years", do you see 9 that? 1 0 A : Yes. 1 1 Q : Does charge mean to you the 1 2 initial fill of the unit in question? 1 3 A: Well, there is an initial, then 1 4 there is subsequent fills. Each one is a 1 5 charge in itself. Just like the oil in 1 6 your car. 1 7 Q : The use of the term same charge, 1 8 what does that indicate to you? 1 9 A : That the material added to the 2 0 unit is retained in that unit for one to 2 1 two years. 2 2 Q : I s it the case that the sales of 2 3 Santovac were somewhat limited because 2 4 there were low replacement sales? 2 5 MR. P REUS S : I object to the form Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020108 463 1 of the question, it's ambiguous as to what 2 you mean by somewhat limited. 3 As That's one of the factors that 4 lead to the volume consideration. The 5 other is the number of vacuum pumps in 6 service that use this material. Of course, 7 the amount per fill is relatively low when 8 you compare it to other uses. So, the 9 answer to your question, it is a factor in 1 0 determining the level of activity in that 1 1 kind of business. 1 2 MR. T AL L ON : In your answer you 1 3 indicated that the number of pumps in 1 4 service would be a factor in the sales of 1 5 the product, correct? 1 6 A: Yes. 1 7 Q : So that if new pumps were added, 1 8 conceivably sales would increase? 1 9 As If the operator of that pump 2 0 decided to use the PCB fluid. There are 2 1 other fluids in the marketplace. 2 2 Q : If an operator decided to use the 2 3 Monsanto product, then putting new pumps on 2 4 line and using the Monsanto product in 2 5 those pumps would relate in greater sales Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020109 4 64 1 of the Santovac products? 2 As Certainly . 3 Q : And once a pump was filled with 4 the Monsanto product, the call for 5 replacement fluid was low? 6 As Low when compared to all the PCB 7 business, certainly. 8 Qs By the way, just one other 9 question in relation to Mr. Bradford's memo 1 0 to you of September 16, 1971. He's 1 1 referring in that last paragraph on page 2 1 2 to General Electric turbines? 1 3 A: Well, I see the reference to 1 4 General Electric and separately to gas 1 5 turbines. I can only assume they're 1 6 talking about turbines manufactured by 1 7 General Electric. 1 8 Qs And did you have an understanding 1 9 of what Mr. Bradford meant when he referred 2 0 to a turbine in that sentence? 2 1 As I believe I did, yes. 2 2 Qs And is it your understanding that 2 3 a turbine is roughly similar in concept to 2 4 a jet engine? 2 5 As Yes, that's my understanding. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020110 465 1 Q : Let me show you a document, Mr. 2 Papageorge, which is a memorandum dated 3 November 17, 1971 and bears production 4 numbers Tran 5029 through Tran 5032. We'll 5 ask the court reporter to mark that and 6 then give you a moment to look at it. 7 (Deposition Exhibit Number 8 1136 mark'd for identification). 9 A: I have read the document. 1 0 Q : Does that appear to you to be a 1 1 memo from Messrs. Bradford and Johnson to 1 2 to Tom Gossage, dated November 17, 1971? 1 3 As It's a copy of it, yes. 1 4 Q : Have you seen that before? 1 5 A : Yes. 1 6 Q : And when do you recollect having 1 7 seen it before? 1 8 A: I saw this in relationship to a 1 9 legal matter. 2 0 Q: This legal matter? 2 1 A : No . 2 2 Qt Another legal matter? 2 3 As Another, yes. 2 4 Qs Did you see it in 1971? 2 5 A s NO . Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020111 466 1 Q : Do you know approximately the year 2 in which you saw this document before? 3 A: About 19 8,6 . 4 Q : What legal matter was that? 5 As This was a case involving 6 hydraulic fluids, Pydrauls. 7 Q : Was Monsanto a party to that case? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q : And you testified on behalf of 1 0 Monsanto? 1 1 A : Yes. 1 2 Qs Did you ever discuss with 1 3 either -- with any of Messrs. Gossage, 1 4 Bradford or Johnson the effect of 1 5 withdrawal of Turbinol 153 on customers for 1 6 that p rodu c t ? 1 7 MR. P REUS S: A t or about November 1 8 of 1971? 1 9 MR. TALLON: Well, let's take the 2 0 general question first, and then we can 2 1 narrow it down. There is no time limit on 2 2 that question. 2 3 A: I understand. I had discussions 2 4 with Mr. Johnson and members of his group 2 5 regarding the impact on customers of Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020112 467 1 alternative materials. I don't recall that 2 the discussions were specific to any 3 particular product or to any particular 4 customer. It was the general discussion of 5 the hardships that these changes would 6 create and the need to do it responsibly, 7 that type of discussion. 8 Q ; Do you recall any discussion with 9 Mr. Bradford or anyone working with or for 1 0 him about the effect of Turbinol 153 on 1 1 Texas Eastern Gas Transmission? 1 2 A : I recall we did touch on it and I 1 3 recall that just a general comment was made 1 4 that this would be quite disturbing to 1 5 Texas Eastern and might be difficult to do. 1 6 Os Do you recall anything else about 1 7 that communication or series of 1 8 communications? 1 9 As That's all I recall. 2 0 Q s And does reading the two 2 1 paragraphs on the bottom of the first page 2 2 of this memorandum or the first paragraph 2 3 on the top of the page of the second 2 4 refresh your recollection as to any 2 5 additional comments made by Mr. Bradford or Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020113 468 1 others on that same subject? 2 MR. P REUS S : To him? 3 MR. TALLON $ To him. 4 A: No. The paragraphs you point out 5 get into detail that I did not get into 6 with -- during my discussions. 7 Qs Was it your understanding that the 8 difficulty that could be caused to Texas 9 Eastern was a potential shutdown of the 1 0 pipeline? 1 1 As Well, that was certainly one of 1 2 them. 1 3 Q : Did you know a Carl Clay? 1 4 A : Yes. 1 5 Qs And what was Mr. Clay's position? 1 6 As Mr. Clay was a Monsanto field 1 7 salesman. 1 8 Q: In the functional fluids group? 1 9 As He sold functional fluids. I 2 0 believe he also sold other Monsanto 2 1 products as well. 2 2 Qs Do you know what his region or 2 3 area of responsibility was? I mean, 2 4 geographical . 2 5 As The central part of the country is Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020114 469 1 as close as I can come. 2 Q : Do you know if Mr. Clay's area of 3 responsibility included Texas? 4 A: Yes. Yes, down in there. 5 Q: Let me show you a document that 6 bears production numbers Tran 002552 and 7 53, which I'll ask the court reporter to 8 mark. 9 (Deposition Exhibit Number 1 0 1137 mark'd for identification) . 1 1 As I have read the exhibit. 1 2 Q : Was Texas Eastern Transmission one 1 3 of Mr. Clay's customers? 1 4 A : Yes . 1 5 Qs Was it the responsibility of 1 6 Monsanto sales representatives to know 1 7 quite a bit about the operation of the 1 8 customers they serviced? 1 9 MR. PREUSS s I o b j ect a s vague and 2 0 ambiguous. 2 1 A : Well, we hoped that they could 2 2 learn as much as they could. 2 3 MR. TALLON: The principle there is 2 4 that sales representatives should know 2 5 customers and operations in order to help Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020115 _________________________________________________________________________ 4 7 0 1 them better to use the Monsanto product, 2 right? 3 As That is one of the principles, 4 yes. 5 Qs And the knowledge of the salesman 6 about the customer's operations would 7 enhance the possibility of the customers 8 continuing to use a Monsanto product, 9 right? 1 0 A : That is one hoped for result, yes. 1 1 Q : And you would say that most 1 2 Monsanto sales representatives were quite 1 3 familiar with the operations of their 1 4 customers? 1 5 A: That's been my experience, yes. 1 6 Qs Did you get this memorandum which 1 7 has now been marked as an exhibit from Mr. 1 8 Garrett? 1 9 A: Yes. 2 0 Qs And did you reply to this 2 1 memorandum in writing? 2 2 As I did not. 2 3 Qs Did you speak with Mr. Garrett 2 4 about the subjects raised in this 2 5 memorandum? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020116 471 1 A : Yes. 2 Q : Was it your understanding that Mr. 3 Garrett was asking for your guidance on how 4 to respond to an inquiry from Texas Eastern 5 regarding the toxicity of Turbinol 153? 6 As Yes. 7 Q: And did you give Mr. Garrett a 8 response on how to deal with that question? 9 A : Yes. 10 Q : What was yourresponse? 1 1 A: I told him to be open, tell them 1 2 all we knew. 1 3 Q : Do you know if Mr. Garrett went 1 4 forward and had discussions with Texas 1 5 Eastern or if Mr. Clay did? 1 6 As It's my understanding Mr. Clay 1 7 did, as informed and coached by Mr. 1 8 Garrett . 1 9 Q : Did someone report tha t to you ? 2 0 A : Certainly. 2 1 Q : Who ? 2 2 A s Mr. Garrett 2 3 Q s When ? 2 4 A s Oh, several weeks later. 2 5 Q s During 1970 was it a practice o Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020117 4 72 1 the sales function in the functional fluids 2 group to create call reports of the 3 contacts such as the one you described 4 between Mr. Clay and Texas Eastern? 5 A: The preparation of a call report 6 was left up to the judgment of the 7 salesman. 8 Q: During the time that you were - 9 you took on your new position, as of 1 0 January 1, 1 9 7 0, did you deem it important 1 1 to make a record of contacts with customers 1 2 seeking information about PCB toxicity and 1 3 environmental pollution? 1 4 MR. P REUS S : Are you talking about 1 5 contacts to him? 1 6 MR . TALLONs No. I'm asking him 1 7 whether after he took on his position in 1 8 19 7 0 he thought it was important in general 1 9 for Monsanto employees to make a written 2 0 record of contacts they had with customers 2 1 regarding PCB toxicity or environmental 2 2 contamination? 2 3 A: I didn't place any particular 2 4 importance on that discussion any more than 2 5 I did on environmental issues or all the Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020118 _________________________________________________________________________ 4 7 3 1 other matters that come up with products. 2 I did not give it that particular degree of 3 emp ha sis . 4 Q : Isn't it the case that the 5 corporate management committee directed in 6 1970 that communications with clients about 7 PCB toxicity and environmental pollution be 8 in writing? 9 As The corporate management committee 1 0 was referring to the general mailings 1 1 common to all the customers of PCB 1 2 products. That was not intended to apply 1 3 to the day-to-day contacts that were made 1 4 either by salesmen personally or over the 1 5 telephone, by not only salesmen, but 1 6 researchers and medical department staff 1 7 and me and so on. 1 8 Q : Have you ever seen any written 1 9 report of communications that Mr. Clay had 2 0 with Texas Eastern on the subject of PCB 2 1 toxicity? 2 2 As I don't remember. I'd have to see 2 3 the document to refresh my memory. I just 2 4 don't recall. 2 5 Qs Let me show you a document, Mr. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020119 4 74 1 Papageorge, bearing production numbers Tran 2 003508 through 3511, which we'll ask the 3 court reporter to mark. 4 (Deposition Exhibit Number 5 1138 mark'd for identification) . 6 As I have read the exhibit. 7 Q : Can you identify that exhibit, 8 please? 9 A: The exhibit is a copy of a monthly 1 0 marketing report prepared by Mr. T.L. 1 1 Gossage, addressed to Mr. H.S. Bergen, 1 2 distributed to a list of other recipients. 1 3 Qs And Mr. Gossage's position at that 1 4 time? 1 5 A: He was director of marketing for 1 6 the specialty products group of Monsanto. 1 7 Qs The specialty products group had 1 8 been formed in January of 1971, or named in 1 9 January of '71? 2 0 As That's about right, yes. 2 1 Qs On the first page of the memo, 2 2 under the caption "hydraulics and 2 3 lubricants", there is a reference to 2 4 Columbia Gulf Transmission, do you see 2 5 that? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020120 475 1 As I do. 2 Qs It indicates that Columbia Gulf 3 Transmission ordered fifty thousand dollars 4 worth of Turbinol 153? 5 As It does. - 6 Qs Did you ever hear of the 7 experience that Columbia Gulf Transmission 8 had with the use of Turbinol 153? 9 As I'm not aware of what you're 10 1 1 Qs Did you ever hear that after 1 2 selling Turbinol 153 to Columbia Gulf, 1 3 Monsanto representatives visited the 1 4 facilities of Columbia Gulf? 15 As I did nothear that. I assume 1 6 they did. 1 7 Qs Did you ever hear that Roger 1 8 Hatton had visited a facility of Columbia 1 9 Gulf? 2 0 As I did not. 2 1 Qs Did you ever hear that Columbia 2 2 Gulf experienced leakage of Turbinol 153 2 3 into their pipeline? 2 4 As I did not. 2 5 Qs What was the reason for the Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020121 _________________________________________________________________________ 4 7 6 1 adoption of the nomenclature Specialty 2 Products in January of '71? 3 As As I recall, Monsanto had a 4 reorganization of their business groups and 5 reassigned the product lines, and someone 6 decided that functional fluids was too 7 limited in the description of the total new 8 product line and they adopted the specialty 9 products designation. I don't know who did 1 0 that. 1 1 Qs You did receive a copy of this 1 2 memorandum, by the way, in October of 1971? 13 A: Yes, sir. 1 4 Q: The distribution on the first page 1 5 of the memo, it's actually a distribution 1 6 sheet, are those gentlemen all members of 1 7 the specialty products group at that time, 1 8 or employees working in that group? 19 As Not all of them. 2 0 Qs Is there any organizing principle 2 1 that you perceive behind this 2 2 organizational -- or, rather, list of 2 3 recipients? 2 4 As These are individualswithin 2 5 Monsanto, world-wide, associated with the Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020122 477 1 product lines represented by the specialty 2 product group. 3 Q : There is a series of letters and 4 numbers before your name on the 5 distribution list, B28K; is that a 6 designation of where you were officed? 7 As Yes. 8 Qs What does that signify? 9 A: It's the B building, second floor, 1 0 mailing zone SK. 1 1 Qs I thought that was an 8. And the 1 2 B building is located somewhere in St. 1 3 Louis? 1 4 As It's at the headquarters of 1 5 Monsanto Company in St. Louis County. 1 6 Qs And what's the area known as? 1 7 As It's the City of Creve Coeur, 1 8 Missouri . 1 9 Qs Let me show you a document which 2 0 is a one page memorandum dated November 16, 2 1 1971 from T.L. Gossage to C.P. Cunningham. 2 2 It has production number Tran 005156. And 2 3 we're going to ask the court reporter to 2 4 mark that as the next exhibit. 2 5 (Deposition Exhibit Number Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020123 478 1 1139 mark'd for identification) . 2 As I've read the exhibit. 3 Q : Can you identify that? 4 As This is a memorandum, Monsanto 5 memorandum from Mr. T.L. Gossage to Mr. 6 C.P. Cunningham, dated November 16, 1971 on 7 the subject of Aroclor approved customer 8 list. 9 Q s And you are noted as a copyee? 1 0 As Yes. 1 1 Qs And you received a copy ofthis? 1 2 As I did. 1 3 Qs What was C.P. Cunningham's 1 4 position in November of 1971? 1 5 As He was a vice-president and the 1 6 managing director of the operating unit of 1 7 Monsanto which included the PCB products. 1 8 Qs So he was a senior fellow? 1 9 As Yes. 2 0 Q: And did your copy of the 2 1 memorandum, that is to say, the copy of the 2 2 memorandum you received in November 1971 2 3 have the handwritten note on it? 2 4 As No, it did not. 2 5 Qs Did you know an employee of Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020124 4 79 1 Monsanto in November 1971 who was referred 2 to as Wink? 3 A ; I did. 4 Q : Who was that? 5 A : That's - - I believe it's W.C. 6 Corey. 7 Q: What was Mr. Corey's position 8 relative to Mr. Cunningham? 9 A: At that time Mr. Corey was the 1 0 director of administration for that 1 1 operating unit. 1 2 Q: He reported to Mr. Cunningham? 1 3 A j He did. 1 4 Qs Did you ever have a discussion 1 5 with Mr. Cunningham or Mr. Corey about the 1 6 subject of this memo? 1 7 As I don't recall any. 1 8 Qs Do you ever recall a discussion 1 9 with Mr. Corey or Mr. Cunningham about any 2 0 holes in the Aroclor approved customer 2 1 list? 2 2 As I don't recall such a discussion. 2 3 Qs There was an Aroclor approved 2 4 customer list in November 1971? 2 5 A s Yes. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020125 480 1 Q : And when was that first -- that 2 list first initiated? 3 A; I know they were working on it 4 late summer '71, putting it together. 5 Q : You had approval authority with 6 respect to that list, which is to say, you 7 could approve or withhold approval for 8 sales to a particular customer? 9 As Or to a new customer, yes. 1 0 Q : And did you approve placing Texas 1 1 Eastern Transmission Corporation and/or 1 2 Columbia Gulf Transmission Company on the 1 3 approved customer list? 1 4 A : Yes. 1 5 Q : When did you do so? 1 6 A; Sometime when these lists were 1 7 prepared in '71. I don't recall the exact 1 8 date. 1 9 (Recess). 2 0 MR. TALLON: Before concluding that 2 1 Texas Eastern was an approved customer for 2 2 the purchase of Turbinol 153, did you have 2 3 any discussions with any Monsanto employees 2 4 about the use of the product? 2 5 As Yes, I did. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020126 481 1 Q : With whom did you have such 2 discussions? 3 A: Norm Johnson. 4 Q: Were these discussions in addition 5 to the discussions about which you have 6 already testified? 7 As These discussions were really a 8 review of past information. 9 Qs Were others participants in those 1 0 discussions besides yourself and Mr. 1 1 Johnson? 1 2 A : I don't recall anyone else being 1 3 in the office, no. 1 4 Qs Did Mr. Johnson provide you 1 5 information about the use to which Turbinol 1 6 153 was put by Texas Eastern? 1 7 As I already knew it by this time. 1 8 Qs Did he provide you any additional 1 9 information, information you had not 2 0 already known? 2 1 As No. It was just a reassurance 2 2 that the customer was fully tuned in, that 2 3 they were a responsible, sophisticated 2 4 operation, knowledgeable about handling 2 5 dangerous materials, the system is a closed Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020127 482 1 system by our understanding and 2 definition. That type of discussion was 3 held. 4 Q : Did you review any sales figures 5 with Mr. Johnson at that time to determine 6 how much Turbinol had been ordered by Texas 7 Eastern? 8 As I don't recall doing that, no. 9 Qs Did you ask Mr. Johnson to explain 1 0 to you whether or not there were any 1 1 opportunities for the Turbinol to leak from 1 2 the system in which it was used by Texas 1 3 Eastern? 1 4 As We discussed the control for 1 5 escape to the environment, yes, and he 1 6 assured me that things were in order. 1 7 Qs Did he use that phrase, that 1 8 things were in order, or - 1 9 As No, that's my perception of the 2 0 total of all the inputs he gave me. And I 2 1 don't remember all the exact words. 2 2 Q: Do you remember what he said that 2 3 suggested to you that things were in order? 2 4 As Well, that the handling of the 2 5 materials that contained PCBs was being Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020128 483 1 done responsibly, that they knew8 about the 2 environmental issue, that they were taking 3 steps to properly dispose of the material. 4 And as far as he was concerned, he 5 recommended that the customer be supplied 6 with the material, since they were 7 responsible and that the safety features of 8 the product were required. 9 Q : Did you and Mr. Johnson discuss 1 0 the availability of any substitute products 1 1 for use by Texas Eastern at that time, 1 2 whether or not those products were 1 3 manufactured or sold by Monsanto? 1 4 As He informed me that there was no 1 5 known alternative material at the time. 1 6 Q : Do you know if Texas Eastern began 1 7 to use an alternative material after 1 8 Monsanto discontinued sales of Turbinol to 1 9 Texas Eastern? 2 0 MR. PREUSSs At what point in 2 1 time? 2 2 MR , TALLON: After Texas Eastern 2 3 - - after Monsanto ceased to sell 2 4 Turbinol, 2 5 MR . PREUS S: At any point after? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020129 484 1 MR. TALLON: Yes. 2 As I was informed that -- after 3 that, there was a phasing in of some 4 alternative material. I was not -- I do 5 not recall being told what that alternative 6 material was. 7 Q : And was it your understanding that 8 the alternative material was provided by 9 another company? 1 0 As Yes. 1 1 Qs Have you ever heard of a product 1 2 called Fyrquel? 1 3 A: I've heard the trade name, yes. 1 4 Qs And Monsanto had conducted some 1 5 tests on Fyrquel products in 1971 and 19 7 0 ? 1 6 As I don't recall that. They could 1 7 well have, I just don't remember. 1 8 Qs When you used the term responsibly 1 9 to describe the usage as described to you 2 0 by Mr. Johnson, what do you recall Mr. 2 1 Johnson saying to you that led you to 2 2 conclude that the use was responsible? 2 3 As Just they're not letting it get 2 4 away from them, or some such words. Get 2 5 into the environment. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020130 485 1 Q : Was it your understanding that no 2 leaks occurred during the course of Texas 3 Eastern's use of the product? 4 As I wouldn't say no leaks. 5 MR . P REUS S s Right now? What point 6 in time? 7 MR . TALLON : Then . 8 As During the discussion? 9 Q : Yes. Well, you had said that you 1 0 recalled Texas Eastern being put on the 1 1 approved customer list at some point when 1 2 the lists were created? 1 3 A : Yes. 1 4 Q : Which I think, in turn, you 1 5 identified as being some point during mid 16 1971. And now I'm inquiring whether it was 1 7 your understanding at the time from 1 8 discussions with Mr. Johnson that no leaks 1 9 occurred or some leaks occurred or 2 0 something else, whether you had no 2 1 understanding? 22 A: I hadan understanding that on 2 3 occasion a leak would occur. But I was 2 4 also definitely left with the impression 2 5 that those leaks were managed properly in Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020131 486 1 terms of cleaning up, controlling., so they 2 didn't get into the environment in 3 general. They may have contaminated a 4 spot, but I was left with the impression 5 that situation would be cleaned up and 6 corrected. 7 Q: Did Mr. Johnson indicate to you 8 that the Turbinol had leaked into the gas 9 pipelines operated by Texas Eastern? 1 0 As Well, there was Turbinol in the 1 1 condensate, or the liquid that was removed 1 2 from the system along the route of the 1 3 system, so, yes, he indicated that Turbinol 1 4 was getting into the gas stream. 1 5 Qs What is the basis of your 1 6 statement that you thought that Texas 1 7 Eastern was aware of the environmental 1 8 issue, I think is the term that you used? 1 9 As I was led to believe from our - 2 0 from my discussions that the 2 1 representatives of Texas Eastern were well 2 2 tuned into the PCB environmental issue, the 2 3 fact that PCBs were in the Turbinol and the 2 4 need to prevent it from getting into the 2 5 environment. I don't know how else to Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020132 _________________________________________________________________________ 4 8 7 1 describe that. He assured me they were 2 dealing with individuals within Texas 3 Eastern who understood these kinds of 4 things . 5 Q : These kinds of things being what? 6 A? Technical matters. So they were 7 people who were -- who had the necessary 8 training and background to understand 9 technical terms. 1 0 Q : Did you understand that Mr. 1 1 Johnson was dealing with chemists at Texas 1 2 Eastern, or chemical engineers? 1 3 A: I'm going to suggest that a better 1 4 word, from my perspective, technically 1 5 trained people. They might have been 1 6 engineers, they might have been chemists. 1 7 Q: Do you have a specific 1 8 recollection of Mr. Johnson telling you 1 9 that he was dealing with chemists or 2 0 chemical engineers at Texas Eastern? 2 1 A: I don't recall the specific 2 2 reference to those two types of 2 3 professionals . 2 4 Qs In any of the discussions that 2 5 you've been describing with Mr. Johnson, Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020133 _________________________________________________________________________ 4 8 8 1 did Mr. Johnson make a specific reference 2 to Transwestern Pipeline Company as 3 contrasted with Texas Eastern Transmission 4 Comp any? 5 As I never heard of Transwestern. 6 The only Transwestern I'm familiar with was 7 a trucking firm. 8 Q : You indicated as part of your 9 answer a moment ago that you were told that 1 0 Texas Eastern was aware that there were 1 1 PCBs in the material. Is that something 1 2 that Mr. Johnson told you? 1 3 A : Yes. 1 4 Q : And did he indicate to you the 1 5 source of his knowledge for that statement? 1 6 A: Well, he led me to believe that he 1 7 personally had discussions on this issue, 1 8 and that the -- that the members of his 1 9 team in their contacts had discussed it. 2 0 It was not just a one time discussion, it 2 1 happened periodically, sort of update 2 2 sessions, is what I was led to believe, as 2 3 well as the field salesman. 2 4 Q; The field salesman had discussions 2 5 with Texas Eastern about which Mr. Johnson Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020134 489 1 was telling you? 2 A : Yes. 3 Q : And by the way, we've been talking 4 about this communication that you had with 5 Mr. Johnson, are you referring to one 6 discussion or more than one discussion? 7 As Oh, more than one. But I don't 8 know how many. 9 Q: I'm referring now to the 1 0 particular period during 1971 when you put 1 1 Texas Eastern on the approved customer 1 2 list. During that time period you're 1 3 referring to one discussion or more than 1 4 one discussion? 1 5 As I'm referring to the one 1 6 discussion at that time with Mr. Johnson, 1 7 who, in turn, reviewed the whole situation 1 8 as it evolved through several months prior 19 to . 2 0 Qs Is there -- rather, do you have 2 1 any ability to recollect now approximately 2 2 how long the conversation that you had with 2 3 Mr. Johnson lasted back in 1971? 2 4 A s Oh, gosh, I really don't recall 2 5 the timing. It was -- I just don't Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020135 490 1 remember. It was not half a day kind of 2 session, by any means. An hour or less is 3 my best recollection. 4 Q: Did you ever see a call report 5 from any meeting between Monsanto 6 representatives and Texas Eastern 7 representatives regarding Monsanto's 8 decision to cease sales of Turbinol to 9 Texas Eastern? 1 0 As I believe I saw a copy of a call 1 1 report here Monday of this week the first 1 2 time. I believe it was in that collection 1 3 of documents. 1 4 Q : In other words, in connection with 1 5 this deposition? 16 As Yes, sir. 1 7 Q : And other thanthat call report, 1 8 did you see any call reports indicating to 1 9 you that there had been discussions between 2 0 Monsanto ives and 2 1 ives of Texas Eastern in 2 2 connection with the PCB content of Turbinol 2 3 15 3? 2 4 A s No . 2 5 Qs Had you seen any call reports Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020136 491 1 which reflected discussions between 2 Monsanto representatives and 3 representatives of Texas Eastern with 4 respect to the issues created by the fact 5 of PCBs in the environment? 6 As I did not. 7 Qs Did you inquire of Mr. Johnson to 8 undertake any additional analysis or study 9 to determine whether the Texas Eastern use 1 0 of Turbinol 153 was, in fact, a closed use 1 1 in the summer of '71 or at any point during 1 2 19 7 1? 1 3 As Did I ask Mr. Johnson to 1 4 re-study? 1 5 Q s Yes. 1 6 A : No . 1 7 Qs Did you also approveColumbia Gulf 1 8 Transmission Company as an approved 1 9 customer on the Aroclor approved customer 2 0 list? 2 1 A s Yes,sir. 22 Qs And was that on thebasis of 2 3 discussions that you had with some other 2 4 Monsanto employee or employees? 2 5 A s Yes. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020137 492 1 Q; And was that also Mr. Johnson? 2 A : Yes. 3 Q: Was that discussion the same 4 discussion that you've just been describing 5 with respect to Texas Eastern, that is to 6 say, did it take place at the same time? 7 A: Yes, sir. 8 Q: Were you aware that the business 9 unit at Monsanto wanted to continue to sell 1 0 Turbinol 153 to both Texas Eastern and 1 1 Columbia Gulf at the time that you put them 1 2 on the approved list? 1 3 A : Yes. 1 4 Qs Were you aware that the business 1 5 unit was concerned that if sales to Texas 1 6 Eastern were terminated that that could 1 7 result in cessation of gas transmission by 1 8 Texas Eastern? 1 9 A: That thought was shared with me, 2 0 yes. 2 1 Qs Shared with you by Mr. Johnson? 2 2 As By Mr. Johnson. 2 3 Qs Did you share the thoughts that 2 4 Mr. -- Or the information that Mr. Johnson 2 5 gave you about Turbinol with Mr. Bergen, or Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020138 493 1 anyone senior to Mr. Bergen? 2 As No. 3 Qs You are aware that there came a 4 time when Monsanto ceased selling Turbinol 5 to Texas Eastern? 6 As I am aware, yes. 7 Qs And are you also aware that 8 Monsanto solicited a hold harmless letter 9 from Texas Eastern? 1 0 A s Yes. 1 1 Qs And by that term hold harmless, I 1 2 mean that you are aware that Monsanto 1 3 offered to continue to sell Turbinol to 1 4 Texas Eastern for a period if Texas Eastern 1 5 would agree to hold Monsanto harmless from 1 6 any legal liability associated with the use 1 7 of that product? 1 8 As That's my understanding. 1 9 Qs You believe that Texas Eastern was 2 0 placed on the Aroclor approved customer 2 1 list at some point during 1971, and perhaps 2 2 during the summer, is that right? 2 3 A s Yes. 2 4 Qs And you are aware that Monsanto 2 5 discontinued sales of the product to Texas Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020139 494 1 Eastern at the beginning of 1 9 7 2 ? 2 A : Yes. 3 Q : Let me be more precise about 4 that. You are aware that at the beginning 5 of 1972 Monsanto announced to Texas Eastern 6 that it was going to discontinue sales of 7 the product to Texas Eastern? 8 As That is correct. 9 Qs That fact is reflected in the call 1 0 report that you looked at on Monday? 1 1 As Yes. 1 2 Qs What changed between the time that 1 3 Texas Eastern was put on the approved 1 4 customer list and the time that Monsanto 1 5 made the decision to discontinue sales of 1 6 the product to Texas Eastern? 1 7 As I personally don't know what 1 8 management was thinking in late 1971. 1 9 Qs Do you have any understanding - 2 0 I'm sorry, I thought you were finished. 2 1 A s I'm finished. 2 2 Qs Okay. Do you have any 2 3 understanding as to the reasons why a 2 4 decision was made at some point before 2 5 January of 1972 to discontinue sales of the Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020140 _________________________________________________________________________ 4 9 5 1 Turbinol product to Texas Eastern and 2 others? 3 As Well, the discontinuation was 4 based on the lack of any agreement between 5 Monsanto and its customers regarding the 6 hold harmless arrangement that we discussed 7 earlier here. 8 Q : Is it your understanding that 9 Monsanto would have continued to sell 1 0 Turbinol to Texas Eastern or other 1 1 customers if those customers had furnished 1 2 hold harmless letters to Monsanto? 1 3 A; That's my understanding. 1 4 Qs And that in the absence of any 1 5 such an agreement between Monsanto and the 1 6 customer, Monsanto would not do so? 1 7 A; Yes. Exactly as they did with the 1 8 electrical use. 1 9 Qs Do you know at what time the 2 0 decision was made to seek such an agreement 2 1 with Texas Eastern? 2 2 As Sometime in January or February of 2 3 '72 is the best I can recall. 2 4 Qs When, to your knowledge, was the 2 5 first time that a dielectric customer Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020141 496 1 furnished Monsanto with a hold harmless 2 agreement? 3 As I'm certain it was in January. 4 There may have been an agreement signed in 5 late D e c emb e r . . 6 Q : Of what year? 7 As December '71 or January '72. 8 Qs Do you have an understanding as to 9 the reasons for the decision to solicit 1 0 those letters from Texas Eastern or other 1 1 Turbinol customers in January 1972? 1 2 As I do not. 1 3 Qs You were not part of the 1 4 decision-making process that led to that 1 5 action on the part of Monsanto? 1 6 As That is correct. 1 7 Qs You were informed simply that in 1 8 the absence of obtaining such aletter 1 9 sales would be discontinued? 2 0 A s Yes. 2 1 Qs And at what point were you so 2 2 informed? 2 3 A s Just before the Christmas holidays 2 4 in December of '71. 2 5 Qs Did you inquire as to the reason Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020142 497 1 that Monsanto was to take that position? 2 As Yes, I did. 3 Qs What were you told? 4 A: That we were very interested in 5 making certain that the customer and its 6 representatives understood the seriousness 7 of PCB in the environment, and in order to 8 assure ourselves, Monsanto, that the proper 9 activities were being conducted, we wanted 1 0 the customer's high officials to be aware 1 1 of this concern, and one way to get them is 1 2 to have them sign such an agreement to make 1 3 certain that they would provide the 1 4 necessary leadership, money and manpower, 1 5 whatever it took to do the job properly. 1 6 That was one of the objectives of such an 1 7 agreement. The other, of course, was the 1 8 legal protection that Monsanto felt that it 1 9 deserved under those conditions. 2 0 Q : Is it fair to state that at the 2 1 end of 1971 Monsanto perceived that the 2 2 continued sales of a product containing 2 3 Aroclor 12 4 2 posed a risk to Monsanto? 2 4 As Certainly. 2 5 Qs And is it also fair to say that Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020143 498 1 soliciting hold harmless letters from 2 customers for PCB based products was a way 3 to shift risk to the customers away from 4 Monsanto? 5 As Well, certainly, that is achieved 6 by such an agreement. 7 Q: By the way, did you testify to 8 Congress in 19 74 about the uses and other 9 issues related to PCBs? 1 0 A: I believe it was1974, yes, sir. 1 1 Q : And in that testimony did you not 1 2 tell Congress that one of the uses for PCBs 1 3 was as a lubricating fluid in gas turbines? 1 4 A : I did. 1 5 Qs By the way, did you ever find out, 1 6 or -- yes, did you ever find out what Mr. 1 7 Cunningham meant when he referred to holes 1 8 in his handwritten note on Exhibit 1139? 1 9 As I did not. 2 0 Qs Did you ever solicit an 2 1 explanation from anyone as to what Mr. 2 2 Cunningham meant by his term - - use of the 2 3 term holes? 2 4 As Well, I was not aware of the 2 5 reference to holes, so - Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020144 _________________________________________________________________________ 4 9 9 1 Q : So, naturally, you didn't ask? 2 A : I didn't ask, therefore, I didn't 3 find out. 4 Q : You had said a moment ago in 5 describing your conversations with Mr. 6 Johnson that one of the things that Mr. 7 Johnson told you was that Texas Eastern was 8 aware of the issues relating to PCBs in the 9 environment, is that what he told you? 1 0 As Yes, sir. 1 1 Qs Do you recall today whether he 1 2 elaborated as to that point? 1 3 As I don't recall any elaboration. 1 4 It was sort of a given. 1 5 Qs It was understood? 1 6 As All our customers of PCBs were 1 7 tuned in, everyone of them, they know 1 8 exactly what we're talking about, and they 1 9 are -- I recall the emphasis on the degree 2 0 of sophistication of the people they were 2 1 dealing with, that's important. That's why 2 2 I remember that. 2 3 Qs So, you didn't have actual 2 4 knowledge that people at Texas Eastern 2 5 themselves were informed about the issues Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020145 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 500 related to PCBs in the environment? MR . P REUS S : Obj ection, misstates his testimony. As The knowledge I had was that which I obtained from normal business interaction . Q: True. That business interaction was not with representatives of Texas Eastern? As With me? Q : Right. Aj No. It was with others in Monsanto . Q : In that sense you were relying on Mr. J ohn s on ? A: Certainly. I had to. Q : Let me show you a document that bears production numbers Tran 3347 through Tran 3349, which we'll have marked. (Deposition Exhibit Number 1140 mark'd for identification). MR. T AL L ON : Why don't you take a moment and review that, please, Mr. Papageorge. A: I have read the exhibit. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020146 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 501 Q: Is that a memorandum that you sent to Messrs. Bergen, Gossage and Paton on January 12, 1972? As I did. Q : That's your signature on the last page ? As 11 is. Q s The title is "PCB action plan", right ? As 11 is. Q s And the introductory sentence on page 1 indicates, "Below is the rough checklist we developed during our meetings on January 4 and 6", do you see that? As I do. Qs Did you have meetings on January 4 and 6, 1972 with the recipients of this memo randum? A s I did . Q S And with Mr. Corey? A s Mr. Corey was not present. Q : Were others present? A s No . Q : What was the purpose of those meetings? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020147 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 5 02 As It was a review of the status of the PCB program, an_d an attempt to determine what actions should follow, what further actions were needed. Q s What general program was under discussion at that time, if there was a general program? A: The general program was the responsible manufacture and sale of PCBs to those uses which can be controlled in terms of entering into the environment and for which no suitable alternative was avai1ab1e . Q : The particular exhibit that we're looking at starts with paragraph number 3. As I see that. Q : Originally, there were paragraphs numbered 1 and 2 on this, right? A : Yes. Q : And those related to what, in general? A : I don't recall. I'd have to see the original document. Q : Have you seen it recently? As I don't recall seeing it recently. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020148 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 _________________________________________________________________________ 5 0 3 Q : You didn't see it on Monday? As If I did, it doesn't stick out in my memory. I don't recall seeing it'. Q; Mr. Preuss, is the redaction intentional? MR. PREUSS s I assume it is. I would have to check on it. MR. TALLONs Mr . Papageorge, do you recollect whether the first two points on this memorandum dated January 12, 1972 related to hold harmless agreements? A j I do not. Q : There is a specific reference under paragraph 12 on page 2 of the memo that reads "Develop Turbinol 153 plan", and then the further indication "Status: Plan developed 1/7/72". Do you know what - As I see that. Qs Do you know what plan is referred to? A: This hold harmless agreement approach. Qs Was that approach described to you at the January 4 and 6 meetings? A: Well, it was reviewed again. I Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020149 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 5 04 had known about it back in December. Qs What is meant by the use of the terminology "Develop Turbinol 153 plan"? As Well, the business group had been assigned the task of coming up with a proposal relating to whether or not we should continue selling Turbinol 153. If we did continue to sell it, under what conditions would they recommend. That was the general gist of the assignment. And it was referred to as our business plan. In December it was decided to go the hold harmless route. This particular meeting, which was sort of an update on where do all these plans stand, this subject came up, and Mr. Gossage informed the group, since he's the marketing manager, that we've already developed our plan the previous week, and it was the adoption of the-hold harmless arrangement. Qs Were there any other aspects to the plan, as you remember it today? A: I don't recall any other details, no . Qs To your knowledge, did something Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020150 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 505 happen on January 7, 1972? I mean, that date is referenced, I'm just wondering - As It is. Mr. Johnson had a work session with his team working on these plans, and that's the date of the meeting. Q : Was there a document, an actual written plan for Turbinol 153 as of this time? As I didn't see it. Qs Do you know if there was one? As I don't know. Qs Were you in charge of developing the plan or were you simply reporting that such a plan was to be developed? As I was simply reporting. Qs You did not have responsibility for developing a plan? As That is true. Qs One of the things that you referred to yesterday was the -- after you took on your position as of January 1, 1970 was information dissemination. That was one of your responsibilities? A s Yes. Qs Was there a task force to deal Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020151 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 506 with new developments and news relating to PCB issues? As Yes. Q : And the task force consisted of ives of research, marketing medical, legal, public relations and manufacturing? As Yes . Q: Was it the case that following your installation in your new position as of January 1, 19 7 0 that each business group would decide what to tell its customers? As Well, each business group, of course, would communicate with its customers, and the information they would share with the customers, of course, they would prepare the basic text, but they would run it by this task force for comments. And following that process, the groups would end up with a final draft that would eventually be used to share with the customers. Qs Is it the case that the details of what was said was left up to the business group involved with the products? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020152 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 507 A: That depends on the type of detail. If it were a -- an example, if it were a medical question, they would be coached by members of the medical department in terms of what was the proper information to share. So, I cannot say that all the details were developed by the marketing group. Q : Right. But was it left up to the business group to determine what was said to the customers about the various products? A; Well, they were responsible for the communication, yes, sir. Q : And in January 1 9 7 0 you met with Don Olson and Norman Johnson to discuss customer applications of Monsanto products? A : Yes. MR. P REUS S: You said 1 9 7 0 ? MR . TALLON : I did say 1 9 7 0. And during those communications you also discussed the ways, the uses by customers of Monsanto products would allow PCBs to get into the environment? A: I was informed of that a t that Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020153 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 508 time, yes, sir. Q : And one of the things that you and the business group considered at that time was to sit down and think about spills? A : Yes. Q : Salesmen were permitted to answer customer questions about PCBs? A: Up to the limit of their knowledge, yes. Q : Let me show you a document that I can't tell whether it's been marked in this case or not, but we'll mark it again, just to be sure, it bearsproductionnumbers T 091767 through 769. (Deposition Exhibit Number 1141 mark'd for identification) . As I have read theexhibit. Q: You've seen that particular letter before? As Yes, I have. Qs Is this one of the documents that you reviewed after you took on your new position in January of 1970? A s 11 is. Qs Did you discuss the text of this Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020154 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 509 document with Elmer Wheeler? A : I did. Q : Did you discuss with Mr. Wheeler the circumstances under which he signed this? A s Yes Q : Did Mr. Wheeler tell you that Messrs . Bergen and Minckler had encouraged him to sign this letter? A s Yes Q : Did Mr. Wheeler tell you that he did not want to sign this letter? A s Well, yes, he did express some - an opinion that it should have been signed by the business group, yes. Qs Is it fair to say that this letter attempts to defend the use of PCBs? MR . PREUSS s I object, the document speaks for itself, argumentative. As I don't know that it was an attempt to defend so much as to share with some key customers the knowledge that Monsanto had accumulated regarding PCBs in the environment as of early 1 9 6 9. Qs Is it fair to say that the letter, Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020155 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 5 10 the text of the letter calls into question some of the public reports about PCBs being found in the environment? MR. PREUSS : Objection. The , document speaks for itself, argumentative. A: It does refer to some of the questions that existed and reflects the scientific community's confusion on the matter. Qi After you took on your position in January of 1 9 7 0, did you do any analysis to determine the kinds of customers to which PCB products were being sold, that is to say, what businesses they were in? A : My hesitation is your use of the word analysis. Are you talking about a sophisticated kind of number crunching system. Q ; No. Did you look at the issue? A : I tried to look at, of course, the issue I was aware of. Then I looked into the types of products that were being manufactured and sold, and then I tried as best I could to get a good understanding of the kinds of customers that were associated Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020156 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 5 11 with each of the products. Q : Did you get a sense, after you took on your position in January of 1 9 7 0, of what percent of the Aroclor business was tied up in sales to dielectric customers? A: Right after I got the job? Q s Yes. A: I don't know that -- I did not arrive at any percent, except that I was definitely aware that it was the principal use. Qs After you returned from Sweden in May of 1970, did you visit with dielectric customers? As I did. Qs Were you accompanied by business people from Monsanto? A s I was accompanied by a field salesman, yes. Qs And did you visit abouta dozen dielectric customers during that month of May , 1 9 7 0 ? As About that, yes. Qs Let me show you a document which actually has been marked as a deposition Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020157 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 5 12 exhibit in this case before, and particularly as Exhibit Number 527, and it bears production numbers Tran 085833 through 0 8 5 8 5 0. Here's a copy for you, Mr. Papageorge. A : I have reviewed the document. Q : Looking at the first two pages of that exhibit, Mr. Papageorge, you've seen that memorandum from Mr. Johnson, dated February 16, 1970, to a group of people before today? As I have. Q: And is it your understanding that the recipients of this memorandum are salesmen, or directors of sales in various locations? A : Yes . Q : Did you ever discuss the content of this memorandum with Mr. Johnson? A; I saw a draft when it was being prepared, yes. Q : Did you see a draft for purposes of solicitation of your comments? A : Yes. Q : Did you make any comments that you Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020158 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 5 13 recall today? As I don't recall specifically, but -- I do recall making some comments, but I don't recall which ones I made. Qs Did you comment on Mr. Johnson's memorandum to the extent that it stated that you can give verbal answers, no answers should be given in writing? A: Yes, we did discuss that. Qs And did you tell Mr. Johnson that that should be in this memorandum? As Well, it was already in his draft, and I supported it after I found out his reasoning. Qs Did Mr. Johnson tell you that he did not want to take fluid back from customers if replacement products were to be used by those customers? As That's right. Yes. Qs Did Mr. Johnson also tell you that it was his view that we can't afford to lose one dollar of business, as indicated on the second page of this memo? As Yes. He was a businessman, interested in profits. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020159 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 _________________________________________________________________________ 5 14 Qs Was the list of questions and proposed answers attached to the draft memo when you saw it? It's separated from the actual memo in this exhibit by several intervening - As Yes. This whole package was available for review at that time, yes. Q : And did you actually get a copy of the proposed Q and A? A: Eventually, I got a typed copy. The first copy I saw was in pencil, the original draft. Qs Including the questions and answers? A : Yes, sir. Q: And who drafted the questions and proposed answers, do you recall? As I don't know. Qs Did Mr. Johnson have a hand in that enterprise, so far as you know? As I know he had a hand. How much I don't know. Qs Do you know who else may have been involved? A : No . Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020160 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 5 15 Q : Were you asked to give comments with respect to the proposed questions and answers? A; Certainly. Q : Did you also see drafts of the letters dated February 9, 1970 and February 1 8, 1 9 7 0 that are a part of this exhibit? As Yes. Qs Did you comment on or pass on these drafts? As When they were being prepared, yes, independently of Mr. Johnson's Qs Were the letters dated February 9th and February 18th sent to customers? As Yes. Qs Were lists maintained of the customers to whom they were sent? A s Yes. Qs Who maintained the lists? A s The marketing managers. Qs The marketing managers in what group, functional fluids group and plasticizers group? As Yes. Qs And in February 1 9 7 0 who was the Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020161 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 5 16 marketing manager in functional fluids? A: There were three of them. Mr. Johnson was the one responsible for the products we're talking about in this case. Qs In this case, meaning the litigation in which your deposition is being taken or something else? As That is correct. Qs And who were the other two? A s There was a Mr. Benignus, manager of the sales to the electrical uses. And a Mr. Fallon, manager of the sales to the heat transfer applications. Qs Did each of those gentlemen make a selection as to which customers these letters would be sent to? As Well, the word selection implies that some decision had to be made by the manager regarding who did and who did not receive it. That was not left to them. They were told to send letters to all customers on record for the previous three years. That would be '69, '68, '67. Qs All customers? A s All customers who received their Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020162 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 5 17 products that contained PCBs. Q : Was the list specific to customers that purchased Aroclor 1254 and 1260? A : NO . All PCBs . Q: And from what sources were those addresses or labels, if there were labels, generated? A: Oh, from shipping records, invoices, bills of lading, individuals who -- well, the invoices do cover the accounts receivable department. That's generally it. It's the shipping information and the invoicing information supplied the list. Q : Were you a participant in any discussions regarding what ought to be said in these letters? A: I helped in the drafting of those letters, yes. Q : Was there any discussion as to whether or not there should be a specific mention of Aroclor 1242 in the letters? A; Well, there was a discussion relating to the differences in the full product line that Monsanto was involved Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020163 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 _________________________________________________________________________ 5 18 with and the types of PCBs that the laboratories that were studying environmental samples were reporting. Q : Each of the two letters, did they go to different constituencies or the same constituencies, February 9 and February 18? As The February 9 is the letter that Mr. Johnson refers to, so -- I was looking for the reference. But the difference between the two letters is that the February 18th letter was sent to the electrical equipment manufacturers as, indicated by the last paragraph on page 2. The February 9th letter is addressed to other than electrical grade customers. Q : And did you participate in any discussion as to whether these letters should contain an indication that Aroclor 1 24 2 could be a contributor to the PCBs being identified in the environment as of February 1970? As Well, as of February, that was still speculation, and we were reluctant to inform customers with guesses, and we were trying to concentrate on the facts as we Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020164 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 5 19 knew them in early February. Q : So, it was decided not to include a reference to Aroclor 1242? As That's right. We didn't know enough about it. Qs There was a specific mention of Aroclor 1254 and 1260, obviously? As There was, because of the information that we had received, yes. Qs And what was intended by pointing out to the recipients of this letter that the products identified in numbered paragraph 1 were not formulated with Aroclor 1254 and 1260? As That's an attempt to relate the product that they were familiar with and the information regarding the environment that we were sharing with them. It's an attempt to somehow tie the two together. Qs Actually, isn't it an attempt to untie the two? MR. PREUSSs I object a s argumentative. As Depends how you look at it. MR. TALLONs Right . Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020165 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 _________________________________________________________________________ 5 2 0 A; A person receiving such a letter and not seeing any reference to, say, a Pydraul, and he's a buyer of Pydraul, he can look at that letter and wonder how - "Why do I get this?" And then if he does know that Pydraul has PCBs in it, the next question would be, does it have the one they're talking about here, the 1254. So, this was intended to answer those two questions: What product is it that has PCBs, if so, is the PCB the one that's being found in the environment. Q : And, for example, a purchaser of Pydraul 90 from Monsanto would conclude after reading this letter that the Aroclors being identified in the environment were not in the product that that purchaser was using? A : That' s right. Q : And that would also apply to Turbinol 153? A : Correct . Q : And, indeed, all of the products identified in that paragraph 1? As That is true. Now, up above the Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020166 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 _________________________________________________________________________ 5 2 1 second paragraph you will see those Pydrauls that do contain -- Q : The specific Pydrauls listed in the unnumbered paragraph, which it is the second paragraph of the February 9, 1970 letter are Pydrauls which did contain at that time either Aroclor 1 2 5 4 or 60 or both? As That is correct. Q : Referring just for a moment more to the February 18th letter, that last paragraph was added specifically for communication to the dielectric customers? As That was the intent, yes, sir. Q : And I take it that although the transformer application of Aroclors 1254 and 1 2 6 0 was considered to be a closed use, Monsanto recognized that occasional loss through leaks was a possibility as of February 1970? As And the leaks are further defined as resulting from equipment misuse, equipment repair, et cetera, yes. Q : By the way, do you know whether, in communications with Texas Eastern in Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020167 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 522 1972, Monsanto advised Texas Eastern that it would be okay to top off their fluid with Turbinol 153? Let me ask a more general question which may be more helpful. Do you know if topping off was discussed between Monsanto ives and Texas Eastern representatives in 1972? As I do not specifically know. Qs When you say that you don't specifically know, are you thinking of some general recollection? A: No. I'm thinking that this is a normal type of discussion for that kind of application. Topping off applies to all of these applications, and it would surprise me if such a discussion had not taken place . Qs But I take it you don't remember specifically having heard about one? As That is correct. Qs Let me show you one document that has production number IDS 002310 through 2 3 2 5, and we'll just ask you to take a quick look at this one. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020168 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 523 (Deposition Exhibit Number 1142 mark'd for identification) . As I have reviewed the exhibit. Q s Does this appear to you to be a copy of the February 9 letter with the Chemical Week article attached and some mailing addresses? As It does. Qs Have you seen this particular document before? As I have seen the letter with the Chemical Week attachment, and I have seen -- I have not seen the address list before. Q: These appear to be all addresses of various General Electric offices? As That is correct. Qs Do you know where this document came from? I mean, did you ever see this in anyone's files at Monsanto? MR. PREUSSs He said he h a dn ' t seen it . As I hadn't seen this specific document. MR. T AL L ON s Okay . Do you know if Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020169 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 524 this is part of anotherdocument that was a compilation of labels? A: Yes, sir. Q s Was it? A : Yes . Qs Do you know if there were other labels that appeared on this same page, but we just don't see them on this exhibit? As That is correct. Q : And was that list of addresses that was maintained by Mr. Benignus the document you remember seeing? A: I recognize some of these addresses as the type that Mr. Benignus would be relating to. There are also some addresses here that lead me to believe that the material involved was not a dielectric fluid, but could well have been a Pydraul. Q : What addresses are those? A : Well, I'm looking at, for example, San Jose, California. These are not going to be all complete, because my information is -- I have forgotten a lot of this. Ft. Wayne, Indiana. Ontario, California. Louisville, Kentucky. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020170 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 52 5 Q : Do you remember that Pydraul products were purchased by General Electric in those locations, or - As Yes. Q : Thank you. Do you remember communicating with Mr. Cameron in early 1970 about sending a letter to U.K. customers for Aroclors? A; What year wasthat? Q i 1 9 7 0. A : Yes. Q : Let me show you a document that bears production numbers Tran 005232 through 005236. (Deposition Exhibit Number 1143 mark'd for identification) . As I havereviewed the exhibit. Q ; Is that a memorandum to you from Mr. Cameron dated 16 February 1970? A : I t is. Q: And attached to that is a draft letter to U.K. Aroclor customers? A: Yes. Qj Did you receive this memorandum from Mr. Cameron in February 1970? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020171 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 526 As Yes. Q : Had Mr. Cameron been asked to prepare a letter to U.K. Aroclor customers? A: I have no way of knowing whether Mr. Cameron did this on his own or whether he was asked by his supervisor. Q : Do you know whether Mr. Cameron was sent copies of the February 9 letter which we just looked at a moment ago to assist him in preparing a letter to U.K. customers? A : He was. Q : And did you discuss this draft with Mr. Cameron? As Did I discuss it with him? Q s Yes. As Yes. Qs Was Mr. Cameronsuggesting to you that there should be a greater reference to -- or there should be a reference to Aroclor 12 4 2 in the letter sent to U.K. Aroclor customers? A s He did. Qs And, in fact, his draft did contain a paragraph which discussed Aroclor Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020172 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 527 1242 and Aroclor 1248? As Yes. Q ; And that draft noted that customers should observe the same precautionary measures with respect to Aroclor 1242 and 1248 formulations as already mentioned in the draft with respect to the more highly chlorinated Aroclors? As They did. Q s And one of the specific formulations referred to in this draft letter as containing Aroclor 1242 or 1248 was Turbinol 153? A s Yes. Qs Was this letter sent? A s Yes. Qs To U.K. Aroclor customers? As Yes. Qs In his cover memo to you, Mr. Cameron indicates that "In view of the present situation in the U.K. we thought our letter should be somewhat more detailed than the one you mailed in the U.S.." Do you see that? A s Yes. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020173 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 528 Qs Did Mr. Cameron indicate to you what he perceived to be the present situation in the U.K. which motivated him to draft a somewhat more detailed letter, to use his term? A : The reference was primarily to the considerable interest shown in the British press regarding the incident that happened in the North Sea with seals and birds. Qs Sea birds? As Yes. Qs And did you tell Mr. Cameron that he ought to go ahead andsend this letter? A s Yes. Qs A moment ago I asked you whether Mr. Cameron was recommending in this letter to customers that the same precautionary measures noted with respect to Aroclors 12 5 4 and 1 2 6 0 should be observed with respect to Aroclors 1242 and 1248, correct? As That's correct. Qs And you indicated that is, in fact, what the draft says? A s Yes. Qs And what the final letter said? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020174 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 529 A : Yes. Q : And the precaution referenced was the -- that customers or users of these materials should exercise the greatest possible care to prevent them from escaping into the environment, correct? As Correct. It's a different way of saying what the U.S. letter said. Q : Take a look, if you would, please, Mr. Papageorge, at a new exhibit, which is a three page document bearing production numbers Tran 6633 through 6635. (Deposition Exhibit Number 1144 mark'd for identification) . A: I have reviewed the document. Q : Have you seen that document before? A: Yes, I have. Qs Can you identify it for the record? As It's a letter which was mailed to customers, Monsanto letterhead, authored by Mr. W.E. Schalk, and dated June 1970. Qs Was it sent to plasticizer customers? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020175 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 530 As Yes. Qj Just very briefly, if you can, Mr. Papageorge, what is Montar 1? A; Montar 1 is the material that remains after PCBs are distilled. The clear product is called Aroclors, the remaining material in the tank looks like road tar, and it was sold as Montar. Q : And that's sales made to customers who were not concerned about the clarity of the material, or the color? A: Well, I don't want to confuse things. We had talked about clarity about the crude material. Q : Right. As As made from chlorinating biphenyl without any distillation. This material results from the distillation step, so you end up with two different portions. The residual in the pot, if you will, is the Mo n t a r. Q : And what applications did it have? As Well, again, applications where the black color was not objectionable. Q s For examp 1e ? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020176 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 531 A? Black caulking, roof tarring, roof tiles, asphalt tiles for flooring that were popular in those days. That kind of thing. Qs Were there other Montars besides Montar 1? As Yes, there were a series of them depending on which Aroclor was distilled. Qs Was there a Montar for every Aroclor? A : Yes . Qs And just, again, very briefly, toluene or xylene blends of Aroclors, what we re they? As They were just that, they were the Aroclors, especially the heavier ones from 12 6 0 down this list, down to the 4 4 6 5 , that for some applications were too viscus, and in order to make them potable and useful in some operations they were diluted with toluene or xylene, which are solvents, really. Qs Do you know, by the way, what synthetic resin compositions are referred to in the first paragraph of this letter? As That term is quite broad in its Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020177 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 532 coverage. It refers to just about any plastic type material manufactured by man, and blends of those. Q : Were the products identified in this letter discontinued for sales purposes effective August 30, 1970? As For the plasticizer applications. Q : And those were considered to be open applications? As Yes. Q s Take a look, if you would, please, Mr. Papageorge, at a document, just one page, bearing production number Tran 008417, which is a letter dated June 11, 19 7 0. (Deposition Exhibit Number 1145 mark'd for identification). As I have read it. Qs And have you seen that particular letter before? A s Yes, I have. Qs That's a letter dated June 11, 19 7 0 that went out over Mr. Olson's signa ture ? A s Yes. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020178 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 533 Q: And there is a handwritten note in the upper left-hand corner of the document which says "Non- elec". Does this indicate that this letter went to non-electrical customers? As Yes. Qs The letter announces that "We", Monsanto, "have come to a decision to discontinue the sale of PCB-containing products for industrial applications effective August 30, 1970," do you see that? As Ido. Qs And then it goes on to say the products concerned are Aroclor 1242, 1248, 1254 and 1260. Do you see that? A s I do. Qs In fact, were sales of those products discontinued as of August 30, 1970 ? A s Certainly. Qs The reference to PCB - containing products, is that a reference to the specific Aroclors which are listed or references to blends in addition? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020179 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 534 As No, this letter addresses only the Aroclor product line, not the blends. Qs When you use the termAroclor, you're referring to the Aroclor that is not mixed with other substances to form a mixed product? A: That is correct. Qs Let me show you a document dated August 14, 1970 with attachments, bearing production numbers Tran 004921 through 4946, which we'll have marked. (Deposition Exhibit Number 1146 mark'd for identification) . As I have scanned through the document. Qs Now, you've seen this particular letter and its attachments before? As Yes, I have. Qs This is a letter from Mr. Schalk to customers, dated August 14, 1970 with attachments ? As 11 is. Qs And, of course, Mr. Schalk, as we saw before, was the director of sales for plasticizer products? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020180 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 535 As Yes. Q: This letter went to plasticizer products? As Yes. Qs This was to specifically make mention of certain findings of PCBs in the environment to plasticizer customers? A s You mentioned the -- you used the word environment, I would suggest that this had to do more with findings of the Food and Drug Administration as it related to items that they regulate. Q s Milk? As Milk and other foods. Qs Such a s fish? As Correct. Qs This particular letter, Mr. Papageorge, refers to a returned goods policy, on page 2? A s I see it. Qs Do you know if there was ever a returned goods policy for Turbinol? As I've never seen one. I don't know. Qs Let me show you a letter that's Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020181 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 __________________________________________________________________________ 5 3 6 dated August 27, 1970, bearing production number Tran 062404, which we'll have marked. (Deposition Exhibit Number 1147 mark'd for identification). As I have read the document. Q : Was that a letter to customers from Norman Johnson, dated August 27, 1970? A : Yes . Qs And was this also a letter sent to non-electrical customers? A: Certainly. This is a letter to the Pydraul F-9 customers. Qs And it addresses the issue of a reformulated product to be known as Pydraul F- 9 - A? A : Correct. Qs Do you recollect what the constituent elements of Pydraul F-9-A were in Au gu s t 1 9 7 0 ? As Not in detail. Qs Do you remember any of them? A s I recall that the polychlorinated biphenyls were removed and replaced with polychlorinated terphenyls for Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020182 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 537 fire-resistant properties. Q; Was it your understanding that inventoried F-9 was to be exhausted before F-9-A was to be shipped? MR. P REUS S: Monsanto inventory? MR . TALLON: Yes . As Well, yes. This follows the practice in the distribution centers, first in, first out. So, the intent of that sentence is that on occasion here and there there may not be a drum of the old formula shipped out, but eventually it would be replaced by the new. Q s Okay. (Noon Recess) . MR . TALLON: Let's continue . Mr . Papageorge, would you say it's a fair statement that any system that at one time had PCBs in it very likely had a high potential for having PCBs in it for a long time to c ome ? MR . P REUS S: I object a s vague and ambigu ou s . A : Gosh, I have to know more about what happened in the system, what kind, how Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020183 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 538 it was drained, how it was cleaned out and so on. Q : Do you remember giving a deposition in the United States versus ABX Corporation case in 1985? As Yes. Q: Let me show you the transcript of your deposition dating from -- let's see, what day is this? It looks like May 1985, the specific date is not readable. The precise passage in which I am interested is on page 98, but due to some colloquy between the attorneys I think you might have to read back to 97 or earlier to understand this. But the passage which I am interested in is on page 98, from lines 5 through 10. As I have read the sections you designated. Q : Did you get a chance to try to understand the context of that question? It may be a little difficult because of the colloquy. I was thinking particularly of the passage on 98. As I think I understand it. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020184 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 _________________________________________________________________________ 5 3 9 Q : Okay. May I have that, please? That's the only copy I have. Would you agree today that it was the case that any system that at one time had PCBs in it very likely had a high potential for having PCBs in it for a long time to come? MR. P REUS S s Asked and answe red. A : Yes. MR. T AL L ON : And do you think you understood that concept by the end of 19 7 0 ? A : Yes. Q: Would yousay that youunderstood it before then? As Yes. Qs Do you have any sense for when - how long before that you came to appreciate that fact? MR. PREUSSs I'm going to object. The whole line of questioning is vague and ambiguous and out of context as to what kind of system you're talking about. MR . T AL L ON : You can answer . A: I can'trecall any specific date that I became aware of this. I just can't recall . Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020185 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 540 Q : Is that a property of PCBs that you realized when you were plant manager at Anniston, for example? A: To a degree, yes. My reason for hesitating is that, again, it goes back to the type of system, the way it was drained, the way it was cleaned out, whether the parts of the system that tend to retain the PCBs were removed. And I have in mind such things as the gaskets, when the system is drained and cleaned out, were those gaskets removed and new ones installed. So, it's the kind of attention that the system was given. But unless -- if nothing is done, certainly, those PCBs, since they are stable and non-degradable under those conditions, you go back a long time later and they're still there. There is no reason for them not to be there. Q : Did you ever consider whether PCBs had a tendency to adhere to metal, uncoated metal? As They'll do that, just like a lot of other oils will. Q : Although PCBs are more tenacious Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020186 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 541 than most oils? As Most oils. But there is still some types of paraffinic oils that are tenacious, also. Qs What are those used for? A: Some lubricants. Qs Let me show you a letter dated January 29, 1971, bearing production numbers Tran 039382 and 83, which appears to be a letter from you to Mr. R.F. Casey at the Ohio Edison Company. We'll ask the reporter to mark that. (Deposition Exhibit Number 1148 mark'd for identification) . A: I have read the exhibit. Qs Can you identify that exhibit? A s It's a letter I wrote, dated January 29, 1971, addressed to Mr. R.F. Casey of the Ohio Edison Company in Akron, Ohio. Qs Do you recall whether you were responding to an inquiry that Mr. Casey had made to Don Olson? A s I was. Qs Do you remember the nature of the Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020187 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 542 inquiry? A: Of course, I don't recall the exact words, but, in essence, it was something like what's the latest on this PCB environmental situation. Q : Was Ohio Edison a customer of Monsanto's? A : No . Q: There is a reference in the second paragraph of the letter that there is also increasing evidence that the PCBs being identified as Aroclor 1254 and Aroclor 1260 are probably the residues from lower chlorinated materials which have undergone degradation. Do you see that? As I do. Q ; Do the lower chlorinated materials referred to there include Aroclor 1242? A: It did. My answer to your previous question, was Ohio Edison a customer, I answered no, I should have said on occasion they would buy makeup dielectric fluids. Q s By January 1971 had the State of Pennsylvania objected to the disposal of Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020188 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 543 Askarel contaminated solids in landfills? A: They did. Q : Was that an objection or a prohibition? MR. PREUSSs I f you know. As All I know is that I called a ive of the state, I forget the title of the agency responsible for landfills. Qs In Pennsylvania? A : In Pennsylvania. And the individual I talked to was -- well, I was going to say, he strongly objected over the telephone to the use of landfills for disposal of PCBs. I do not recall any reference to any regulation or any guideline or anything of the sort. The position the individual took was that if they were aware of any such disposals they would do everything they could to stop it. Qs Let me show you a letter dated February 1, 1971. It's a one page document that bears production number Tran 036871, which we will have marked. (Deposition Exhibit Number Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020189 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 544 1149 mark'd for identification) . As I have read the letter. Q : Is that a customer letter sent out by Mr. Bradford? As Yes. Q s Did you review that letter in draft? A s Yes. Qs And did you review the final version of it before it was mailed out? As Yes. Qs The letter specifically refers to several of the Pydraul products by name, and indicates that reformulated Pydrauls were being made available by Monsanto, correct? A: Correct. Qs Do the -- rather, were the Pydrauls referred to as reformulated, that is to say, 312 A, 135 A, 2 3 0 A, 5 4 0 A, and A - 2 00 B all polychlorinated terphenyl reformulations ? A s Yes. Q: They were free of biphenyls? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020190 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 545 As Yes, sir. Qs Let me show you a letter dated April 15, 1971, bearing production number Tran 063874. (Deposition Exhibit Number 1150 mark'd for identification) . As I have read the exhibit. Qs And is that a letter -- a customer letter signed by Mr. Bradford, dated April 15, 1971? A s It is. Qs Is that a letter, the text of which you reviewed before it was sent out? As Yes. Qs The letter indicates that as of the date of this letter there were no PCBs in any Monsanto Pydraul fluids. Was that accurate? A s Yes. Qs Did you from time to time send samples or direct that samples of Aroclors be sent to government agencies for their use in making studies and analyses? A s Yes. Qs Was that part of your job Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020191 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 546 responsibility? As It was certainly my job to encourage free cooperation with the laboratories. The actual shipping of the sample was the responsibility of the research department. Q: One of the things that -- one of the responsibilities that you took on as of January 1, 19 7 0 was to coordinate with government agencies? As Yes. Qs State and federal? As Yes. Qs And you understood by the time you took on your position that various government agencies had been in contact with Monsanto regarding PCBs in the environment before you assumed your position? A s Yes. Qs And among those agencies that contacted Monsanto before you took on your position was the U.S. Bureau of Commercial Fisheries? A s Yes. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020192 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 547 Q : In 1 9 7 0 the Food and Drug Administration established an action guideline permitting a maximum of 5 parts per million of PCB in the butter fat of milk? A : Yes. Q : And that guideline was used by state authorities in Ohio to embargo milk? A : Yes. Qs And toquarantineherds found to be contaminated? A : Yes. Q : And in 1971 and 1 9 7 2 the FDA promulgated additional action guidelines for poultry and fish? A s Yes. Q s Did one of those come in '71 and one in ' 72 ? A : Yes. Q : Which was which? The fish came in '71? A : I don't remember . All I r e m e mb e r is they were separately issued. Q : Do you recall whether in 1971 the Council Of Environmental Quality formed a Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020193 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 548 federal interior departmental task force on PCBs ? A: Yes. Q : And was ityourunderstanding that the job of that task force was to coordinate the scientific efforts of the government aimed at understanding PCBs? As Yes. Q : And the taskforce consisted of ives from the Department of Agriculture? A : Yes. Q : The Department of Commerce? A : Yes. Q: The Department of Health, Education and Welfare? As Yes. Q : And the Department of the Interior? A : Yes. Q : Do you recall if that body ultimately recommended that concentration of PCBs in rivers and lakes should not exceed one one-hundredth parts per billion? A : That recommendation was made, but Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020194 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 _________________________________________________________________________ 5 4 9 I don't associate it with the interagencytask force. Q: You believe that recommendation was made by a different governmental body or action agency? A j Yes, sir. Q: Do you recall which one you think it is? A; I believe at the United States Environmental Protection Agency. Q; Let me show you a document that is titled "International Dielectrics Symposium, U.S. Envornomenta 1 Issues Affecting PCB Usage", a document which has identification numbers Tran 029750 through 753, which we will have marked. (Deposition Exhibit Number 1151 mark'd for identification) . A; I have read the exhibit. Qi Is that a copy of a document that you drafted? A : Yes, it is. Q : And is that intended to be a draft presentation to the International Dielectrics Symposium? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020195 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 550 A : Yes, sir. Qs In what year? As It was after 1 9 74, but I cannot place the exact year. I just don't remembe r. Qs And did you attempt in this document to summarize the history of regulatory action with respect to PCBs through the point that you drafted it? A: Yes. This is regulatory action by federal U.S. agencies. Qs Would you agree, Mr. Papageorge, that by 1 9 7 0 you thought it was a fairly high likelihood that a governmental ban on PCBs eventually would occur? MR. PREUSS : You say by 1 9 7 0 or , are you talking about January 1970 or by the end of 1970? MR. TALLON: Well, let's try January. A: What was that adjective before the word ban? Did you say -- Q : That such a ban eventually would occur? A : In 1 9 7 0 - - Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020196 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 551 MR. PREUSS: January, he's asking. As I'm sorry. In January? MR. TALLON: By January I think is the precise -- MR . PREUSS : That would be fine. As By January 1970 my initial assumption was that, yes. MR . TALLON s Did you begin dealing with the Environmental Protection Agency after you assumed your position on January 1 , 19 70? A s What there was of it, yes. Q s Right. Let me show you a document dated March 30, 1970, bearing production number STR 0 2 9 9 0 0, which we will have marked. (Deposition Exhibit Number 1153 mark'd for identification). As I have read it. Q s Is that a memo that Dr. Kelly sent to you in late March 1 9 7 0 ? As 11 is. Q s And do you recollect having received that memo? A s Certainly. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020197 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 552 Q : Did you talk with Dr. Kelly about the communication that he had with Dr. Hill of the Ohio State Board of Health? A: Yes. Qs Did he tell you that Dr. Hill had found PCBs in samples of milk from three herds in Ohio? A : Yes. Q : And that that PCB had been - that Dr. Hill had traced the contamination back to silage from three different silos? A: Yes. Q: Was it yourunderstanding that by the end of March 19 7 0 Dr. Kelly believed that Aroclors should not be used in any paint formulation that contacts food, feed or water for animals or humans? A: Yes. Qs By the time that you took on your position as of January of 1 9 7 0 was it your understanding that representatives of Monsanto in the United Kingdom had been in contact with government officials with respect to PCB contamination in the U.K. A: Yes. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020198 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 553 Qs Was it your understanding that one of those -- that one agency with which those representatives were in contact was the Natural Environmental Research Council? A : Yes. Q: And that you believed to be part of the Department of Education and Science in the U.K.? A : Yes. Qs Do you know whether before you took on your position the San Francisco Bay Regional Water Quality Administration had been in contact with Monsanto with respect to PCB contamination? As The San Francisco Bay -- I don't recall that. Qs Let me show you a document dated February 27, 1969 and bearing production numbers Tran 0 5 9 4 74 and 4 75 and ask you if reviewing this document refreshes your recollection of having learned of any such contact? (Deposition Exhibit Number 1154 mark'd for identification). A s I have read the document. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020199 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 554 Q : Does having read that exhibit refresh your recollection as to whether or not you learned after you took on your position that representatives of the San Francisco Bay Regional Water Quality Board had been in contact with Monsanto regarding PCB s ? As It does help me recall that I had seen this document, yes. MR. PREUSS s The record should reflect that he is not shown has a copyee or an addressee of the memo . MR. TALLONs The record s o reflects. Do you recall whether or not you learned that that water quality board was inquiring about use of PCBs by Monsanto in the San Francisco Bay area? As Yes. Qs Did you have a meeting with Dr. Frank Field or Franklin Field of WNBC in New York City in April of 1 9 7 0 ? A s Yes. Qs And were you accompanied to meet with Dr. Field by Elmer Wheeler? A s Yes. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020200 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 555 Qs Did you subsequently describe - was that, in fact, an interview of you and Mr. Wheeler by Franklin Field? A: Yes. Qs And did you subsequently describe that interview as a tough one? As To me it was difficult, since it was my first one. Qs And why was that? Not why was it your first one, why was it a tough interview? MR. PREUSSs Other than the fact that it was his first one? MR. TALLONs Yes. As Well, that, in itself, made it, to me, difficult. It was something I hadn't been trained for, so the end result was one of -- it was not necessarily a pleasant experience. Qs Was there anything about the subject matter which made the interview a tough one, in your view? A s No . Qs Was that a discussion with Doctor -- an interview by Dr. Field having to do Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020201 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 556 with statements made by Congressman Ryan? A : Yes. Q : And were you a aware that by that point Congressman Ryan had made remarks about the environmental contamination by P CB s ? A: Yes. Q s And when did you first become aware that Congressman Ryan had made such remarks? A: The early part of 1 9 7 0. Qs Were you in contact with Congressman Ryan with respect to his remarks or about the subject of PCBs in general? As No . Q : Was any representative of Monsanto in such contact? As Not at that time. Qs Was Congressman Ryan believed to be hostile to Monsanto? As Not necessarily at that time. He was very interested in the PCB issue, but not necessarily hostile to Monsanto. Qs And how did that interest manifest Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020202 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 557 itself in his remarks? A; Oh, he wanted to know - MR. P REUS S s We're talking about Congressman Ryan's remarks? MR. TALLONs Yes. As Again, I can't quote the man word-for-word, but, in essence, he wanted to know what uses they were put to and how much was produced and how did it get into the environment, and if it did get into the environment, what would it do. These kinds of questions were being raised by Congressman Ryan in early 1970. Q: Let me show you a document comprising a memorandum and an attachment bearing production numbers Tran 0086 hundred through 008600. (Deposition Exhibit Number 1152 mark'd for identification) . (Discussion off the record) . MR . TALLON : Back on the record with a housekeeping issue with respect to the numbering of exhibits. Exhibit Number 1151 is the International Dielectrics Symposium Draft presentation prepared by Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020203 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 558 Mr. Papageorge: 1152 is the April 1970 memorandum from Dr. Kelly to Mr. Papageorge, bearing production numbers Tran 008600 through 8602. 1153 is another memo from Dr. Kelly to Mr. Papageorge dated March 3 0, 19 7 0, and 1154 is a memorandum from Jack Garrett to the Aroclor wildlife file dated February 27, 1969. 1155 is not marked as of this moment. (Discussion off the record). As I have read the exhibit. Qs That's a memorandum to you from Dr. Kelly? A : 11 is. Qs And the precise date looks to me to be unreadable, but appears to be dated in Ap ril 1970? A : 11 is. Qs And did you receive a copy of this memorandum in April 1970? As I did. Qs Do you recall that Dr. Kelly was reporting to you a conference call he had with authorities from the Georgia State Department of Agriculture? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020204 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 559 A: Yes. Q: And did that call concern the contamination of cow milk by Aroclor 12 5 4 ? As Yes. Qs And attached to his memo is a document entitled "George Schwarzwalder resume'". Was that originally attached to Dr. Kelly's memo? A: I don't understand the connection between the two. And I note the May 12, 1970 date on the attachment, which is several weeks after the date of Dr. Kelly's letter. I personally don't know why the two are together. Q: Have you seen that document referred to as a resume' before? A : Yes . Qs Does that document review the situation of a dairy farmer in Ohio? As It does. Qs And the milk of his cows was contaminated with PCBs? As Yes. Qs Did Monsanto make some reparations or payments to this dairy farmer? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020205 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 560 As I don't know the result of that. Q : Dr. Kelly says in his memo to you, which is the top sheet in this particular exhibit, referring to the last paragraph, now, Mr. Papageorge, "I think we will have to get word out to our distributors to stop selling Aroclors for this purpose, and to have their customers cease painting the interior of silos or selling the paint as an interior coating." And he goes on to say, "Legal ramifications are obvious, but I think it is better than buying an indefinite number of milk herds." Do you know whether by April 1970 Monsanto had purchased any milk herds? MR. P REUS S s I object a s argumentative. As Not to my knowledge. MR . TALLON: Do you know if Monsanto ever did? As I have never heard that they did. Qs Did you understand that remark from Dr. Kelly? As Did I understand which remark, the wording in here? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020206 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 561 Q : Well, what was your understanding of Dr. Kelly's statement that "Legal ramifications are obvious but I think it is better than buying an indefinite number of milk herds"? As Of course, I can't put myself in Dr. Kelly's shoes, but -- Qs Of course not. As But I believe he was implying that if dairy farmers had cattle that were an economic liability to them, they might ask somebody to buy the herd from them and Monsanto could be -- could end up with milk herds. Qs Because Monsanto had sold PCBs that had some kind of connection with the milk contamination? As That's a possibility. Qs Do you know Bob Sido? A s Yes. Qs What was his job in 1 9 7 0 ? A s He was in Monsanto's headquarters and was the custodian of the label, and was also the individual who coordinated the design of the labels and placed the orders Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020207 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 562 with the printers. Qs Let me show you a document, Mr. Papageorge, which has already been marked as an exhibit in this case, number 868. As I have read the document. Qs Is that a memorandum from Mr. Sido to the labeling file which was carried to you and dated August 5, 1970? A s Yes. Qs Did you get a copy of it? As Yes. Qs Did you and Mr. Johnson have a conversation with Mr. Sido at the beginning o f Au gu st 1 9 7 0 ? A s Yes. Qs And did you tell him that Pydraul products should not carry the PCB environmental statement? MR. PREUSSs Well, I object as ambiguous, taken out of context and in c omp1e t e . MR. TALLONs Well, that's fine, we can go through it. Did you and Mr. Johnson have a conversation with Mr. Sido at the beginning of August 1970? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020208 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 563 A s Yes. Q : In person or by phone ? A s Person. Q : At your office or - A s Yes, Mr . Sido came by my office sat down and talked. Q : And did you and/or Mr . Johnson tell Mr. Sido that all of the domestic Pydraul products were being reformulated and that none would contain PCB? A: Eventually nonewould, yes. Qs And did you or Mr. Johnson indicate to Mr. Sido that the Pydraul products may contain Aroclors lower than 1232 or chlorinated terphenyls so that they would require the chlorinated hydrocarbon standard paragraph? As Yes. Qs And you know what is meant by the chlorinated hydrocarbon standard paragraph? As I do, yes. Qs That's a paragraph which appears on labels of Monsanto products referring to chlorinated hydrocarbon being contained in the product? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020209 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 564 As Yes. Q : And did you and/or Mr. Johnson tell Mr. Sido that in the export market one or two Pydraul products may contain some PCB , but the environmental statement should not be used? As That's true. Qs And did you also tell him -- did you or Mr. Johnson tell Mr. Sido that those safety hydraulic fluids were being used in coal mine equipment and that Monsanto hoped to get your competitors to agree to use of the PCB message if substitute formulations were not acceptable? A s Yes . Qs And did you tell him or did Mr. Johnson tell him that none of these Pydraul products referred to in this memorandum should carry the PCB environmental statement? MR. PREUSSs Well, obj ection to your characterization that none of these Pydraul products in this memorandum - MR. T AL L ON s Okay. Did you say or did Mr. Johnson say to Mr. Sido that none ______________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020210 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 5 65 of these Pydraul products should carry the PCB environmental statement? As That's the Pydraul products that he's describing here, that for some reason or other are an exception. Q : Did you ever comment on this memo to Mr. Sido in writing? A : No . Q : Reply to it in any way? As No . Q : To the best of your knowledge, did Mr. Johnson? As I do not know. Q s Let me show you a document that's dated February 2, 1971, bearing production numbers Tran 067639 and 640. (Deposition Exhibit Number 1155 mark'd for identification) . As I have read the exhibit. Q s Did you work with a Jack Early in 19 7 1? As On occasion, yes. Qs What was his position then? A s He was Monsanto's representative in Washington, D.C. that dealt with Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020211 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 566 regulatory matters relating to insecticides and pesticides that Monsanto manufactured. Q: And in February 1971 did he report to you on a meeting held in Washington with representatives of Campbell's Soup, Agway, the U.S. Department of Agriculture and the FDA? A : Yes. Q : And is this exhibit a copy of his written report to you on that meeting? A : Yes. Q : Was it your understanding that at that meeting the FDA agreed to allow chickens containing 5 parts per million or less in their fat -- of PCB in their fat to be processed through normal commercial channels? As Yes. Q: But that chickens with greater than 5 parts per million in their fat would have to go through a salvaging procedure? A : Yes. Q : Do you recall whether in 1971 the State of Florida informed Monsanto that it had to take measures to prevent PCBs from Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020212 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 567 entering the Escambia River estuary and bay? As What year was that? Q : 19 7 1. As Yes. Qs Let me show you a document which has -- well, we're going to call it 1156, it's a multi-page document dated February 8, 1971, and it bears production numbers BIR 0 0 79 5 1 through 9 6 2, and it is titled "PCB environmental problem, January status report". (Deposition Exhibit Number 1156 mark'd for identification) . A: I have reviewed the exhibit. Qs Is that exhibit a copy of your January 1971 PCB environmental problem status report? A s Yes . Qs And you prepared this document for circulation to the group of recipients noted on the cover page? A s Yes. Qs Did you report to the recipients of this status report that the State of Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020213 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 568 Florida had informed Monsanto's Pensacola textile plant that it must take emergency measures to prevent PCBsfrom entering the Escambia River estuary and bay? A : Yes. Q : And that that was to be done within thirty days? As Yes. Q : And that that was to be an approved permanent solution thatMonsanto should adopt? A j Yes. Q : And that theconsequence of not doing so was to face a penalty of five thousand dollars per day? A : Yes. Q : Did youdetermine that, infact, no PCBs were then present in the plant effluent? A : Yes. Q : But that, instead, that the 2.5 parts per billion PCBs which were then being detected were beingextracted from sediment contaminated prior to the summer of 1969? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020214 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 569 A: Yes. Qs How did you so discern? How was that figured out? ' As By 1971 the compressor that was the source of the PCBs in 1 9 6 9 was out of service, and, therefore, was no longer a source of PCBs, and there was no other source. Qs And did you explain that to the Florida authorities? A s Yes. Qs In February 1971 had legislation been proposed in the Massachusetts House of Representatives to ban the discharge of PCBs to the environment? As Yes. (Recess). MR. TALLON s Do you remembe r hearing in 1971, Mr. Papageorge, that the Department of Justice, United States Department of Justice had recommended that suit be initiated against the Anniston plant for PCB emissions? As What year was that? Q : 19 7 1. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020215 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 570 As '71. I don't recall that at all. Q; Let me show you a document which we'll mark as the next exhibit, bearing production numbers Tran 42 through Tran 45 . (Deposition Exhibit Number 1157 mark'd for identification) . MR. TALLONs And feel tree to review the entire document at your leisure, I was particularly interested in knowing whether numbered paragraph 1 on the first page refreshed your recollection of having heard such a statement? A: I have read the document. Q : And the question was, does looking at the first page, and particularly the first numbered paragraph refresh your recollection as to having heard that in 1971 the U.S. Department of Justice had recommended that suit be filed against the Anniston plant for PCB emissions? MR. P REUS S : App a r e n 11y recommended. MR. TALLON: Okay. A? Yes, I do recall that now. In my Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020216 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 571 mind I associate emission with vapors up stacks, not as PCB presence in water. This is why I couldn't recall the incident. Q: Do you recall giving a deposition in a case entitled Henderson versus the Monsanto Company and others in 1987? As Henderson? Q : Yes. A: I believe I recall that one, yes. Q : By the way, what was the most recent deposition you gave for Monsanto other than this one? As Last week. Qs Let me just show you a transcript from the Henderson deposition, please feel free to take a lookat it. I'm particularly interested in asking you about the question and answer that appear here on page 133. As I've read it. Qs Did you, by any chance, give a deposition in litigation between Texas Eastern and certain insurance companies? A s I remember the insurance companies, but I can't associate Texas Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020217 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 5 72 Eastern with it. Q : Have you given any other depositions which relate to Turbinol 153? A : No . Qs Excuse me for coming over here, but I was wondering, did you provide the testimony which appears on page 133 of that deposition transcript? A? It appears to be that, yes. Q : Did you use the term -- or did you say that hydraulic fluids, as an example of a use of PCBs in what can idealistically be described as closed sys t ems ? As Yes, I did. MR. P REUS S s I n part he gave that -- in part that's his answer. MR. TAL L ON s I understand. I n fact, you were asked "what do you mean by 'cannot be controlled'"? Correct? A s Yes. Qs Okay. And the answer you gave was "Well, in my mind the hydraulic fluids is an example of a use of PCBs in what could idealistically be described as closed Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020218 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 573 systems. But in the real world they are extremely difficult to maintain because of the very high pressures involved, and the pressures on the user to keep his operations going encourage the leakage of PCBs into the plant sewers or into the sewerage system out into the environment. We felt that it was unrealistic to expect that application to be controllable". Did you give that answer? A : I did. Q : And was your reference to hydraulic systems as idealistically closed systems a reference to the fact that you recognize that hydraulic systems could fail, leading to leaks or spills? A: Yes. Especially the high pressure systems which are mentioned here. Q : And in your answer did you also refer to the pressure on operators to keep operations going? As Yes. That's a different kind of pressure. Qs That's sort of a business pressure? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020219 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 _________________________________________________________________________ 5 7 4 A: Business pressures, correct. Q: You recognize that those business pressures meant that operators wanted to keep their equipment going? A: In manycases, yes. Q: And did you feel that it was unrealistic to expect that hydraulic fluid application to be contro11 ab1e? A : I did. Q : Because of the business pressure to which you just referred, in part? A: Yes, in a secondary part. The real problem was the -- what boils down to the technology for designing systems to cope with high pressure temperatures and keep these types of materials from escaping. That was the real problem. Qs Yes. The high pressure application and the business pressure were both factors, correct? A: Certainly MR . TALLON: Thank you. No fur the r questions. MR. PREUS S r I have no questions a t this time. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020220 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 575 COMES NOW THE WITNESS, W.B. PAPAGEORGE, and having read the foregoing transcript of the deposition taken on the 3rd, 4th and 5th days of November, 1 9 9 2, acknowledges by signature hereto that it is a true and accurate transcript of the testimony given on the date hereinabove mentioned . A W.B. PAPAGEORGE Subscribed and sworn to me before this /Q/ day of My Commission expires: _ _ _ , 1992. JOSEPHINE S. NIBLOCK NOTARY PUBLIC STATE OF MISSOURI " " ST.roUISrtCUNTY- rw commission exp. jam. 15.1005 rg Notary Public Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020221 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 576 State of Missouri SS . City of St. Louis I, Ronald A. Gore, a Notary Public in and for the State of Missouri, duly commissioned, qualified and authorized to administer oaths and to certify to depositions, do hereby certify that pursuant to Notice in the civil cause now pending and undetermined in the Superior Court for the State of California for the County of Los Angeles, to be used in the trial of said cause in said court, I was attended at the offices of Bryan Cave, One Metropolitan Square, in the City of St. Louis, State of Missouri, by the aforesaid witness; and by the aforesaid attorneys; on the 3rd, 4th and 5th days of November, 19 9 2. The said witness, being of sound mind and being by me first carefully examined and duly cautioned and sworn to testify the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in the case aforesaid, thereupon testified as is shown Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020222 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 577 in the foregoing transcript, said testimony being by me reported in shorthand and caused to be into typewriting, and that the foregoing pages correctly set forth the testimony of the aforementioned witness, together with the questions propounded by counsel and remarks and objections of counsel thereto, and is in all respects a full, true, correct and complete transcript of the questions propounded to and the answers given by said witness; that signature of the deponent was not waived by agreement of counsel. I further certify that I am not of counsel or attorney for either of the parties to said suit, not related to nor interested in any of the parties or their attorneys. Witness my hand and notarial seal at St. Louis, Missouri, this _Jl_ _ _ day of , 1992. My Commiss ' ' " "" '=. Notary Public in and for the State of Missouri Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000020223