Document QgY8y3e4zV2ajNO4JR4K1K12R

SINOUTTHCIEHERANuRnLDiEtSIeSTdTORNsI,CtaWTtEeOSsTF VdWIiRsEtGSrTINicVIAtIRcGoINurIAt DoJAfeMctEehSaesMeEd. ,sAtaaDttKeIaNolSff, ARadlmphinEis.trAatdokrins,))) P l a i n t i f f s , )) v s. )) No. 61-2098 MCOoNrSpAoNrTaOtioCOnM, PANY, a Delaware ))) D efendant. )) takDeRnD. PeEolpRnaoNisbEniSettiThiofanTflsHf.oJMof fANtb s * * * * R eporter i M. Joy S pringer J am es M ay R epo r tin g S ervic e C E R T IFIE D S H O R TH A N D R EPO RTERS R.R. 2 - BOX 65 E D W AR D SV ILLE. IL L IN O IS 62025 j s # 1821 Vi 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 1 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF WEST VIRGINIA CHARUSSTON, WEST VIRGINIA JAMES M. ADKINS, Administrator of the Estate of Ralph E . Adkins, Deceased, et a l, Plaintiffs, vs. MONSANTO COMPANY, a Delaware Corporation, De fendant. ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) No. 81-2098 APPEARANCES: Paul L , Pratt, Esq. Messrs. Bowles, McDavid, Graff & Love, by P. Michael Pleska, Esq. and Charles M. Love, I I I , Esq. For P l a in t if f s , For Defendant. IT IS STIPULATED AND AGREED by and between counsel for the p la in tiffs and counsel for the defendant that the deposition of DR. ERNEST TILLMAN may be taken pursuant to Rule 2 6 (a ) of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, on behalf of the p l a in t if f s , on June 27 and June 28 , 1983, at the Radisson Hotel, Room 215, 9th Street and Convention Plaza, St. Louis, Missouri, before M. JOY SPRINGER, a Notary Public within and for the* JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G SER VIC E * 1 1 County of Madison,, State of I l l i n o i s ; that the issuance 2 of notice and dediraus is waived, and that this deposi 3 tion may be taken with the same force and effect as if A a l l Federal rules and statutory requirements had been 5 complied with. 6 IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED that any 7 and a l l objections to a l l or any part of this deposition 8 except objections as to form of the questions asked or 9 answers given, are hereby reserved and tray be-raised or* 10 the tria l of this cause; and that the signature of the 11 deponent is not waived. 12 * * * * * * * * * 13 14 15 16 17 18 DR. ERNEST TILLMAN 19 produced, sworn and examined on behalf of the plain tiffs t 20 deposes and says as fo llow s: .21 f 22 BY MR. PRATT: EXAMINATION 23 (Whereupon the reporter marked P la in 24 t i f f s ' Deposition Exhibit #128, Monsanto 25 identification #8330036, consisting of 1 page; JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G SER VIC E 1 1 Exhibit #129, Monsanto identification 2 #8330067 and #833068, consisting of 2 3 pages; Exhibit # 130, Monsanto id e n t ifi 4 cation #8322902,cons is ting of 1 page; 5 Exhibit #131, Monsanto identification 6, #8326238, consisting of 1 page; Exhibit 7 #132, Monsanto identification #8323065 8 through #8323070, inclusive, consisting 9 of 6 pages; and Exhibit #133, Monsanto 10 identification #233695, consisting of l 1 page; Exhibit #134, Monsanto id e n t if i 12 cation #8323177 and #8323178, consisting 13 of 2 pages; Exhibit #135, Monsanto iden 14 tification #8331253 through #8331259, in 15 clusive, and #8331262 through # 8331271, 16 consisting of 17 pages; Exhibit # 136, 17 Monsanto identification #8323234 and 18 #8323235, cons is ting of 2 pages ; Exhibit 19 #137, Monsanto identification #236212 20 through #236215, inclusive, consisting of 21 4 pages; Exhibit '#138, Monsanto id e n t if i 22 cation #8323313 through #8323315, consist 23 ing of 3 pages; Exhibit #139, Monsanto 24 identification #8326129 through #8326142, 25 inclusive, and #8326149 through #8326160, JA M ES MAY R E PO R TIN G SER VIC E inclusive, consisting of 26 pagas; Exhibit #140, Monsanto identlfication #8324030, consisting of 1 page; E xhibit # 1 4 1 , Mon santo identification #8324046, consisting of 1 page; Exhibit #142, Monsanto id e n t ifi cation #234551 and #234352, consisting of 2 pages; Exhibit #143, Monsanto id en tifi cation #234905 through $234913, consisting of 9 pages; Exhibit # 144, Monsanto id en tif cation #232202, consisting of 1 page; Exhibit #145, Monsanto identificatio n #8324311 through #8324313, inclusive, consisting of 3 pages; Exhibit #146, Monsanto identification # 232235, consist ing of 1 page; Exhibit # 147, Monsanto identification #232236 and #232237,, con sisting of 2 pages; Exhibit #14, Monsanto identification #232246 through #232267, in clusive, consisting of 22 pages; Exhibit #149, Monsanto identification #8326531 through #8326533, inclusive, consisting of 3 pages; Exhibit #150, Monsanto identification #232273 and #232274, consisting of 2 pages; Exhibit #151, Monsanto identification #232305 through # 232316, inclusive, consisting JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G SER V IC E 1 of 12 pages; E xh ibit #152, Monsanto 2 identification'#232333f consisting of 3 1 page; Exhibit #153, Monsanto id e n t ifi 4 cation #8324396 through #3324397, inclu 5 sive, consisting of 2 pages; and Exhibit 6 i#154, Monsanto identification #232390 7 through #232394, in clusive, consisting of 8 5 pages, for the purposes of id e n t ifie s t io n .) 9 Q (By Mr. Pratt) Tell us your name, 10 w il l you, please. 11 A Ernest Tillman. 12 Q Do you have a profession? 13 A 1*111 a physician. 14 Q And what is your current position? 15 A I*m Senior Physician with Monsanto 16 Company at World Headquarters. 17 Q Do you have personnel under you, sir? 18 A Not directly. 19 Q What does that job e n t a il, that position? 20 A Primarily we are concerned with the 21 health matters related to a number of plants assigned 22 to our responsibility. 23 Q A ll right. And what do you do involved 24 in that? 25 A We consult with them on health matters, JAM ES MAY R E P O R T IN G SER VIC E 1 1 2 3 V * . i. 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 `'K J 15 16 17 18 19 20 .....21 * -22 23 24 25 identify the need for health surveillance programs, see to it those programs are implemented, evaluate the results of the program, advise a d d itio n a l matters. MR. PRATT: A l l r ig h t . Your Honor, at this point we would c a ll this witness under Federal Rules of Evidence No. 611. Q (By Mr. Pratt) Now, where did you graduate from medical school and when, sir? A Hahnemann Medical College and Hospital in Philadelphia, 1956. I t 1s now known as Hahnemann University. Q A fter that did you have a rotating Internship? A I did. Q Where at? A At Nazareth Hospital in Philadelphia. Q - After that did you have a residency in any specialty? A Because of the nature of licensing procedures in Pennsylvania at that time, I did work in a resident position in psychiatry at the Philadel- phia State Hospital for approximately eight months, nine months, in that-range. .. Q Are you Board certified in any field of medicine? * l' JA M ES M AY R E P O R T IN G SER V IC E i 1 2 J 3 A Occupational Medicine, Q Occupational and Environmental Medicine? A Occupational Medicine, 4 Q When did you receive your Boards? 5 A In 1979. 6 Q What work did you do to receive your 7 Boards, sir? 8A In addition to the standard medical 9 training, a number of post-graduate seminars, courses, 10 training courses, gathered credits in that fashion and 11 attended the mini-residency at the University of 12 C incinnati. 13 Q That was under whom? 14 A Under Sydney Leonard and the University 15 of C in c in n a ti' s Medical School., 16 Q How long were you at Cincinnati Medical 17 School? 18 A That comprised a three-week concentrated r 19 course and three one-week followup section for the next 20 three years. 21 Q When you left your psychiatric position, 22 where did you go? 23 A I was in the process during that resi- , 24 dency of building a general practice in Philadelphia, 25 and when that came to fruition so I could support a JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G SERVICE l* 1 -y, 7 family from the proceeds, I left the residency and 2 went into general practice fu ll time. 3 Q What year would that have been? 4 A That would have been March of 1958. 5 Q How long did you practice in general 6 medicine in Philadelphia? 7 A From actually September of 1957, over 8 lapping the residency, until December of 1965. 9 Q And where did you go after 1965? 10 A I went to work for the DuPont Company \ n in their Charabersburg Plant in New Jersey. 12 Q And what was your position with them? 13 A I was a Staff Physician in the Medical 14 Department there. 15 Q And what were those re sp o n sib ilitie s, 16 what did you do there, sir? 17 A Primarily it was examination of em 18 ployees, oversight of specific medical programs. My 79 particular re sp o nsib ility was hearing conservation. 20 We also operated a sick call clinic where we would : 21 treat injuries occurring on the job and sicknesses that 22 were not necessarily job related. 23 Q O .K . Kow long were you with DuPont? 24 A Until September of 1968. 25 Q Where did you go then, sir? JA M ES MAY R EPO R TIN G SER VIC E l 1 To the Clin Corporation in East Alton, >, ; 2 Illinois. 3 And what was your position with them? '4 I was Plant Medical Director there. 5 Was DuPont, the plant you were a t , 6 a chemical plant? 7A 8q 9A 10 Q 11 Alton? 12 A Yes. The Olin plant was not, right? No. How long were you with Olin at East Until November 30th, 1974. 13 Q And you came to work at that time for 14 Monsanto, right? 15 A That1s correct. Q16 What was your fir s t position there, sir? 17 A Was hired as a Senior Physician. 18 Q And were your duties the same as you 19 related before? 20 A That was part of the duty. We were .21 building a Department of Environmental M edicine, Environ 22 mental Health and Medicine, in those days, and our job 23 actually evolved into what it is now. I also had charge 24 of the Creve Coeur Clinic fo r, perhaps, two years at ; 25 the beginning of my time with Monsanto. JA M E S MAY R E P O R TIN G SER VIC E T 2 3 A 5 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 15 17 18 19 20 ,21 22 23 24 25 Q O .K . Now, in your duties have you been involved with a chemical known as 2 , 3 , 7 , 8 tetrachlorodibenzo-para-dioxin? A I'm sorry, would you sa y . that again. Q Have you been involved with a .chemical 2 ,3 ,7 ,8 tetrachlorodibenzo-para-dioxin? A I 'm not sure I know what you mean by "involved w it h .11 Q W ell, have you done any work of any kind or any nature involving this particular chemical in regard to studies, for instance? A I*ve not overseen any studies per sonally in that. Q Have you been involved in the Nitro Plant Health Study Task Force? A Yes, I have. Q O .K . When did that begin, sir? A To the best of my recollectio n, that would have been probably late June or early July, 1979. Q And who were the members of this Task Force? A I don't remember everyone that was on that Task Force, but there were a rather large group of us. -Phocion Park, who is our environmental attorney; B ill McCarville; at the time of its in itia tio n Fred Holzapfel I` l JAM ES MAY R E PO R TIN G SER VIC E 1 was our Chairman; the Plant Manager from the Nitro Plant 2 was one of the members. Occasionally someone else when 3 he could not make it would f i l l in for him from the 4 plant but was not a normal member of the committee. 5 We had Public Relations people there, 6 Q L e t 's see i f we can get them down. 7 Holzapfel was the Chairman, right? 8 A Right. In the beginning he was. Q9 A l l right. You were on it? 10 A Yes. Q11 Dan Bishop was on i t , right? 12 A Yes. 13 Q C. F. Callis?- 14 A Yes. 15 Q W. J . McCarville? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Is McCarville a physician? 18 A No, s i r . 19 Q F . C. Meyer was on i t , right? 20 A That's righ t, yes, he was. .21 Q Is he a physician? 22 A No. 23 24 J 25 Q R. M, Scott was the Plant Manager? A Plant Manager a t the Nitro Plant, righ t. Q P. R. Wilkins? JAM ES MAY R E PO R TIN G S ER VIC E 1 1 A For a time, yes. He was not: on that 2 committee at the same time, as I r e c a ll, that Dan 3 Bishop was. That may be incorrect, but I ?ra not sure 4 if they served at the same time. 5 Q Was J. T . Nolan on it? 6 A I did not see him a t any of our 7 meetings. He may have been an ex- officio member, but 8 X have not seen him attending. 9 Q How about M. Throdahl? 10 A No. 11 Q What was his position at that time? 12 A As I r e c a ll, he was a Senior Vice 13 President, which he s t i l l is . U Q O .K . Would he have been over this 15 group in the Corporate heirarchy? 16 A Yes. I t was his instruction that led 17 to the formation of the committee, 18 Q Did the Mt. S in a i group with the 19 Steelworkers and some governmental agency request per 20 mission to study the workers at Nitro? 21 A Not from me. 22 Q Did they from anyone in thecompany? 23 A I d o n 't knew. 24 Q W e ll, did in fact a study pursue? 25 A I 'v e been told that it had. I did not JAM ES MAY R E P O R T IN G SER V IC E l 1 see it , but I have been told that it had. Q2 W e ll, you' re aware that there was a 3 study 4 A Yes, I am. Q5 A l l right. Do you know when that study 6 began? 7 A At some time in 1979, but I ' m not 8 sure what the dates a re. Q9 A l l right. Simultaneously did -- Do 10 you know Dr. Suskind, by the way? 11 A Yes, I do. 12 Q Simultaneously did Dr. Suskind begin 13 a study of these sane individuals or former members and 14 members of the -15 A I d o n 't think simultaneously is the 16 correct word. He did do a study, though, as I under 17 stand i t , some- short time after the S in a i group did their 18 study. I do n't recall the S in a i dates. 19 Q O .K . What we are going to do, s ir , 20 because documents are involved and they w ill help us 21 in this examination, I ' m going to hand you certain docu 22 ments and I'm going to ask you some questions on them. 23 First exhibit I ' m going to hand you Is P l a i n t i f f s ' Depo 24 sition Exhibit #35 (Monsanto identification #8322384). 25 You' re either a recipient or receiver of a copy or the JA M ES MAY R E P O R T IN G S ER V IC E 1 2 3 '' 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 , 22 23 24 25 originator of these documents. This is a letter on Monsanto stationery dated March 29 , ' 79, from F. C. Meyer, Director of Ex perimental Projects, is it not, sir? A Yes, it is. Q And i t 's to Dr. Iterion Moses of the Mt. S in a i Medical Center in New York, is n ' t that correct? A Right. Q And you' re shown as receiving a blind copy, isn ' t that correct? A That's correct. Q This letter discusses, does it not, sending a lis t of clock numbers of active and retired employees who were associated with 2,4,5- T and related intermediate sodium 2 , 4 ,5 trichlorophenate during the period 1948 through 1969, is n 't that correct? A. I d o n 't see anything' about trichloro- phenate in here. I t does refer to 2 ,4 ,5 - T . I stand corrected. I t ' s stated in the fourth line down, that's correct. Q A ll right. And i t 's a lis t of active and retired employees? A I t refers to such a l i s t . Q And i t ' s divided into two parts on this l i s t . I think It states those directly exposed to* JA M ES MAY R EPO R TIN G SER VIC E l* T 1 2 / 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 ; 21 v' 22 23 24 -J 25 9 2 ,4 ,5 - T operating departments and. too, those potentially exposed in other departments where some of the fin a l 2,4,5- T product was dried, i s n 't that correct? A That' s correct. Q It states in the latter case -- I guess they are talking about 2 , 4 ,5 trichlorophenate departments -- They were unable to give the Mt. Sinai people clear work history records, is n 't that correct? A It just simply says, "Not included." States no reason. Q " I n the latter case we ca n 't be sure from the work history records a l o n e ." A I thought you said in the last paragraph. Q No. The second -- right. A O .K . I see where you a re. Yes, th at's Q But they were not able to include en- closed l i s t of other employees who occasionally or acc id e n tally had opportunity for exposure, such as maintenance, control lab, et cetera, personnel? A That's correct. Q O .K . Let me ask you th is, have you performed work in the nature of the study that they were going to do? A Have I done such a study? JAMES MAY R EPO R TIN G SER VIC E li 1 A No. This is an epidemiologic function, and I'm not an epidemiologist. Q Of course, you have a working knowledge of epidemiology? A I would have to know something about it in my job, see. Q O .K . Of course, one of the things that's very important for one doing an epidemiological study is to get accurate work history records, i s n 't that correct? A That's correct. Q The next exh ibit, Doctor,I'm going to hand you is P l a i n t if f s ' Deposition Exhibit #129 (Monsanto identification # 8330067), ask you to look a t that, sir. This document, P l a in t if f s ' E xhibit #129, is on Monsanto's stationery and i t 's a letter from Judith Zack, Epidem iologist, to Dr. Raymond R. Suskind, Director, Institute of Environmental Health, Kettering Laboratory at the University of Cincinnati, dated April 18, 1979, is it not, sir? A That's correct. Q O .K . Mrs. Zack, apparently-- and it 's also shown that you received a blind copy of that document, JA M ES MAY R E PO R TIN G SER VIC E l right? A I did. Q Who. is Mr. 0.Dolin? A 0. Dolin is employed at 'the Nitro Plant. Q And what was his position there, sir? A To the best of my knowledge, h e ! s the Chief Chemist at the plant. Q Is he also the Safety Director? A No, sir. 0 And in the fir s t paragraph of that letter Mrs. Zack is categorizing approximately 700 a ctive, retired and terminated employees according to birthdate, race, sex, salary code and type of exposure, i s n 't that correct? A That1s correct. Q I take it , thatwas for thpurpose of beginning the study that Dr. Suskind die on the Nitro employees, is n 't that correct? A I c a n 't say that I really know that. I was given informational copies of these things, but I w a sn 't directly involved in what was going on in this type of communication. Q O .K . W ell, theydid amorbidity stud}', did they not, eventually? A Yes, sir. JAM ES MAY R E P O R TIN G SER V IC E 1 Q Would you tell the jury what a morbidity 2 study is. 3 A I t 's the study of the causes of death 4 in a given population, identifying specific causes and 5 relating those specific causes to the expected number of 6 deaths for those same causes in a given population. 7 Q Wouldn't that be a mortality study, sir? 8 A Yes, I'm sorry. I'm describing mor 9 ta lity , not morbidity. Actually this would be a study 10 of the types of illnesses that occur in a given group 11 and comparing those incidents of illness to a control 12 group having the same illn e s s e s . 13 Q And she states that there are three 14 groups, as I see it in the letter, i s n 't that correct? 15 A That's r ig h t. 16 Q F irst group was those employees who 17 worked in a 2,4,5- T production area, regardless of 18 whether or not th ey h a d chloracne, is that right? 19 A That's r ig h t. 20 Q And then also included were those em 21 ployees who worked in areas such as Maintenance, but who 22 developed chloracne from an interraittentexposure to 2,4,5- T? 23 A That's rig h t. 24 'I 25 Q Right? A That's right. JAM ES MAY R E P O R T IN G SER VIC E l 1 Q Of course, in Plaintiffs* Exhibit #35, viiich is the letter from Meyer to Moses, they, apparently, were unable to give the M t. S in a i people that data, such as on Maintenance people, i s n 't that right7 , A That*s what it said. Q The intermittent exposure group, these were employees who worked on a job that entailed inter mit tert exposure to 2 ,4 ,5 - T but did not develop chloracne, is n 't that correct? A I'm sorry. Say that again. Q The intermittent group were those em ployees who worked on a job that entailed intermittent exposure to 2 ,4 ,5 - T but who did not develop chloracne, is n 't that correct? A Yes. Q And that group included viorkers in Technical Services, M&intenance, Control Laboratory and other plantwide r e s p o n s ib ilit ie s , correct? A That's correct. Q And the third group, which is called a control group, are those employees who worked in the office or in operating departments not associated with 2,4,5-T production, right? A That's correct. Q Now, what is the importance, s ir , of a JA M ES MAY R E P O R T IN G SER VIC E l control group? A This kind of a study would be used to establish the norm for a particular population as to the incidence if disease, causes of death, if it 's mortality study. I t ' s a basis of comparison for the group under study. Q Do you think that getting a control group out of the plant is good epidemiologic practice? A Oh, yes, indeed I do. Q In other words, i t 's your position that as long as they w eren 't associated with 2 ,4 ,5 - T , ever: though they were in the plant, that control group would be a l l right, right? A Indeed it would, Q O .K . Monsanto stopped manufacturing 2 ,4 ,5 - T i n ^1969 at that plant, is n 't that right? A 1969 or '7 0 . I 'm not precisely sure, but I believe that's correct, yes. Q Do you know of any of the employees that have come down or developed chloracne since the cessation of a c tiv itie s involving 2 ,4 ,5 - T at that plant? A Are you talking about employees who had been in the 2 ,4 ,5 - T operation? Q No. People that came to work there afterwards. JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G SER VIC E lr 1 A Oh, yes. 2 Q You have had employees that have de 3 veloped chloracne even though you no longer make the 4 product? 5 A We have had people who have had what 6 was diagnosed as a chemically-induced acne, 7 Q O .K . Can you give me the latest case 8 that you know of? 9 A By name? 10 Q By year. 11 A My memory serves me correctly, it would 12 be 1981. I 13 Q You remember whether that was a male i 14 or a female? 15 A There are three females involved and 16 two males, I believe. 17 Q Hew would they get exposed to get the 18 acn e, s i r , do you know? ; 19 A There was a problem in the Santac'ure NS 20 Department which was found to be the probable cause of 21 this situatio n. Totally unrelated to 2,4,5- T . i22 Q Hand youwhat,!s been marked P la in t iffs ' 23 E xh ibit # 130, (Monsanto identification # 8 3 2 2 9 0 2 ), and ask 24 you what that is . 25 That's a memo to F. C. Meyer, George JA M E S MAY R E P O R TIN G SER VIC E li 1 Roush, J r . f yourself and Jan Yung, right? 2 A That's correct. 3 Q And i t 's from Judith Zack, and i t 's 4 dated May 30, 1979, right? 5 A Correct. 6 Q And the subject is Kitro Medical 7 Examination Study, right? 8 A Right. 9 Q And what this gives is as of May 30th, 10 1979, they had about 320 people who had agreed to par 11 ticipate in the study, i s n 't that right? 12 A That's rig h t. 13 Q And there is a breakdown on the types 14 of employees, correct? 15 A R ig h t . 16 Q New, let me ask you th is, what pre 17 cipitated the study by Dr. Suskind at that time? 18 A At that time that was a continuation 19 of a study he had started almost thirty years before. 20 Q. O .K . Do you know what studies he con 21 ducted over the years? 22 A He responded to a request in 1949 along . 23 with others from the University of Cincinnati to examine 24 people who had been exposed in a runaway reaction in one 25 of the buildings at the Nitro Plant. He evaluated these JA M ES MAY R E P O R T IN G SER V IC E l 1 people in 1949, again in 1950 and in 1953, as I recall. 2 Q A ll rig h t. Was there ever any study 3 done, morbidity study, done on these people from '53 4 until *79? 5 A Each of them had available to them, 6 and to the tet of my knowledge, many participated in a 7 periodic physical elimination program which continued 8 through the years. 9 Q That was done at the plant, right? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Let me ask you, can you tell us who the 12 plant doctor was a l l those years? 13 A I'm' not sure who was there before about 14 1950 or *51, but from that time on i t has been Richard 15 C. Wallace. 16 Q O .K . I think he began there September 17 5th of 1950, right? 18 A I rm not sure of the dates, but as far 19 as I can tell you, it was near that time. 20 q These followup physicals, what did they 21 consist of? 22 A That varied from time to time in terms 23 of what the person would allow to be done. Some people 24 d id n 't participate, but it would be a routine laying on 25 of the hands, laboratory work that was appropriate to the JA M ES MAY R E P O R T IN G SER V IC E l i. findings of that examination, x-rays, chest x-rays. That's pretty w ell it . Standard for the industry in those days. Q A l l rig h t. They had physical exams, is n 't that correct? A That's right. Q But as far as -- and that was done at the plant, right? A That's right. Q There w a sn 't routinely any blood work done, was there? A No, not routinely. As Isa id , when there was an indication for blood work, it would be done. I f there was a physical finding that suggested there was a problem, then laboratory work appropriate to that finding would be done. Q During that period of time did they do laboratory work, say, from *54 on on anyone that you knew about? A W e ll, I c a n 't re ally tell you that because I don' t have the records to look in , so I can.'t say from my knowledge that I have sat and tried to memorize what was done. I f I had the records to refer to -Q What would have been the criterion or protocol for a routine exam? JA M E S M AY R E P O R T IN G SER V IC E l A The fact you' re an employee is the protocol for having one done. I t 's been the policy for any, many years to provide physical examinations. Q I t would be an eye test, wouldn't it? A It might be. Q Hearing test? A I t may be. Q A physical exam, looking at the man? A Yes. Q O .K . Were there any examinations tc id e n tify , for insfence, peripheral neuropathy? A I d o n 't think there were any examinations sp e c ific a lly beyond the usual hands-on that were available in many of these years that you're talking about. Q To your knowledge, didSuskind from ' '5 7 through this time, did they come down and examine any of these people theirselves? A I really can 't say becauseI wasn't there until 1974. Q Did he from 1974, that you know of, until 1979? A Yes. Q When? A In 1979. Q O .K . But nothing from '7 4 on up that JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G SER VIC E you know o f ;u n t il 179? A Not that X was involved in or knew of my own personal knowledge, no. Q The f ir s t exam in *49 and *50 involved four people, did it not? A 1949, I believe it involved four people. In 1950, X believe, there were more. Q There were a total o f, what, thirty- seven that were seen in '53? A I do n't know what the number is. Q tend y o u what's been marked P l a i n t i f f s 1 E xhibit #131 (Monsanto identification #8326238) s ir , and ask you to look at that. This document, s i r , originated from F. J. Holzapfel. A There's no such signature on th is, although, the heading of the letter indicates that. Q Dated June 8, 1979, right? A That's the date. Q And the subject is the Nitro Health Study Task Force? A That's correct. Q And it references Messrs. W ilkin s, McKee, Throdahl and Nolan, right? A Right. JAM ES MAY R E PO R TIN G SER VIC E 1 Q And i t 's to tssrs'. Bishop, C a llis , 2 H o lzap fel, McCarville, Keyer, Park, Scott, Tillman and 3 Wilkins, correct? 4 A That's right. 5 Q O .K . And this document, apparently, 6 is the formation of the Ad Hoc Task Group, right? 7 A That's right. 8 Q The purpose of it was to think through 9 and formalise a strategy and a plan that w ill make cer 10 tain a l l appropriate resources within or outside the 11 Corporation are being applied to resolve the many in ter 12 related and d if f ic u l t situations surrounding the Nitro 13 Health Study in v o n g trichlorophenol, i s n 't that correct? 14 A That* s correct. Q15 What* s this business about a study 16 or strategy or a plan, what were you going to do? What 17 is the purpose of this organization? 18 A One of the things you have to do when 19 a study like this is done is to be prepared to report 20 to those who participated what those findings were. 21 That calls for appropriate procedures to be followed 22 so this thing is done correctly and the people are 23 properly informed, 24 Q The last paragraph states, "For 25 openers, we need to do some brainstorming -- to identify JA M E S MAY R E P O R TIN G SER VIC E l 1 possible activities -- some of which enable us to react 2 to charges or adverse publicity and some of which might 3 avert such adverse publicity or create a more favorable 4 c l in a t e ." X take i t , then, that one of the functions of 5 this committee, this Ad Hoc Committee, was to create 6 publicity involving the study, i s n 't that right? 7 A No. I t said to react to the publicity. 8 Not to create i t . 9 Q V e il , did you expect adverse publicity? 10 A That's always possible i f the findings 11 are bad. You never know in advance what a study is going 12 to show and you have to be prepared to deal with whatever 13 answer comes from it . 14 Q Now, when did you fir s t have notice 15 that the Vietnam veterans had file d suit in their Agent 16 Orange deal? 17 A I have not been directly involved in 18 that, so I would have to depend on the newspapers. 19 Q Around 1979, w asn 't it? 20 A I don't know. I d id n 't find that im 21 portant enough to commit to memory since I w asn't directly 22 involved in i t . I t was a matter of information that I 23 d id n 't see any need to memorise dates on. 24 Q O .K . I hand you what's been marked 25 P l a in t if f s ' Exhibit #46 (Monsanto identificatio n #231686), JA M ES MAY R E P O R TIN G SER V IC E l 11 > 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 J 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 ; 22 23 24 / 25 1 which consists of 3 pages. First page of P l a i n t i f f s 1 Exhibit #46 is a cover letter from Dan R. Bishop to Messrs. C a llis, Holzapfel, KcCarville, Meyer, Park, Scott,1 yourself and Wilkins, dated June 12, 1979, right? A That's correct. Q With cc to Mr. J . T, Nolan, right? A Correct. Q And the cover letter says, " For your information, the attached memo from Mr. Nolan places the Nitro situation in the proper perspective and w ill be an appropriate review document as we prepare for the f ir s t meeting of our task fo r c e ," correct? A That's correct. Q Then the attached document is from Mr, Joe Nolan to Mr. Pierre W ilk in s. Mr. Wilkins was wh^t, sir? The letter is dated June 4 , 1979. A His role was Public Relations out of New York o ffic e s. I Q The f i r s t paragraph says that there may be considerable agita tio n against chemical companies in the I&nawha V alley, i s n 't that right? . A That's what it says. Q Said the situation there has a lively potential for national exposure, is n 't that correct? JA M ES MAY R E P O R T IN G S ER V IC E l * 1 A Tha t ' s correc t . 2 Q States that there is a West Virginia 3 Citizens Action Group in that area? 4 . A That's right. . 5 Q And equally aggressive labor represen 6 tation from the Steelworkers of America, i s n 't that right? 7 A Tliat's right. 8 Q He states that these two have succeeded 9 in flagging the attention of media-conscious Dr, Irving 10 Selik o ff in New York? n A That's correct. 12 Q In the memo he also states that the 13 Agent Orange furor provides just the kind of news peg U that the media people look for, i s n 't that correct? 15 A That's correct. 16 Q In the last paragraph he states, *;The 17 Appalachia setting, rich in tawdry tales of business 18 in sen sitiv ity , furnishes a natural backdrop for a lle g a 19 tions of corporate indifference to the human co n d itio n ,'' 20 i s n 't that righ t, sir? 21 A That*s right. 22 Q And he talks about, on page 2 of e x 23 h ib it 4 6 , about a Selikoff- Suskind fa c e o ff, i s n 't that 24 correct, on these two studies? 25 A Yes, it says that. JA M ES MAY R E P O R TIN G SER V IC E t 1 Q He characterized Selik o ff as a man 2 skilled in the slashing a r t of talking in headlines, 3 right? 4A I do n 't know i f h e 's talking about 5 S e lik o ff or Suskind, He says, "one man." He doesn't 6 name that person. 7 Q W e ll, perhaps, subsequent documents 8 w ill enlighten us as to which one h e 's talking about. 9 A A l l I can tell you is what I see. 10 I t says, "one man," and then, "the o ther." It doesn't 11 name either. 12 Q And in the second paragraph he's talk 13 ing about the fact that S e l i k o f f 1s study may be released 14 f ir s t , i s n 't that correct, sir? 15 A I'm not sure which one's h e 's talking 16 about there. He refers to both studies looking at dioxin, 17 and I'm not sure which one he means w il l be released fir st 18 Q W e ll, l e t 's see i f we can glean from 19 that paragraph. "D r . Suskind*s w il l be rigorously con 20 fined to dioxin and th delayed effects ( i f any) of 21 worker exposure. Dr. S e l i k o f f 's w il l address it s e l f to 22 d io x in , but w ill be much wider ranging, examining any ill 23 effects workers, may have from their experience a t Nitro. 24 I t Is entirely possible we might fare very w ell in the 25 dioxin study and not so w ell in the other one which w ill JA M ES MAY R E P O R T IN G SER VIC E \ `1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 be released f i r s t ." Dees that indicate to you that there was some concern about the S elik o ff study being released first? A Since they both refer to studying of dioxin, no, it doesn't. Q O .K . Wasn't that in fact a concern a l l through this saga of your Ad Hoc Committee -- A I'm not so sure I ca ll it a concern. I t was a matter that we considered possible. Since the 10 study was done f i r s t , it was logical to assume that it 11 would be published f ir s t . 12 Q Truth of fact, neither of these studies 13 have been published, have they? U A Not to my knowledge, no, s ir . 15 Q Hand you what's been marked P laintiffs* 16 Exhibit #48 (Monsanto identification #8323037 and # 8323 038). 17 P lain tiffs* Exhibit 48 is a memo from 18 F. C. Meyer, dated June 18, 1979, the subject of which 19 was Selik o ff Nitro Study 1Phone Report, and you're one 20 of the persons who received a carbon copy, i s n 't that 21 correct? 22 A That's correct. 23 Q And it concerned a 'phone c a ll from 24 F. C. Meyer, apparently, to Dr. S e lik o ff, i s n 't that 25 correct? 1 i JA M ES MAY R E PO R TIN G SER VIC E ? 1 2 3 / : .4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 - 21 22 23 24 25 A- Right. Q And he, apparently, brings up to date Mr. Meyer -- is that Dr. Meyer? A Dr. Meyer. Q -- on what they haveaccomplished. They have done the porphyrin studies, immunological studies, clinical chemistries, nerve conduction studies and nerve behavioral data, and he states there was one group not completed a few days ago were electrophoretic or lipoproteins and triglycerides, right? A Right. Q On page 2 , apparently, S e lik o ff tells him that he can call in four weeks and get some re su lts, right? A That's right. Q You as a member of the AdHoc Committee ever receive any results of the S elik o ff group shown on P l a i n t if f s ' Exhibit 48? A I have not had an opportunity tc re view any of his data. Q Hand you what' s beenmarkedP l a i n t if f s ' E xhibit #49 (Monsanto id en tifica tio n #8323058 through #8323060, inclusive). This is a document, P l a i n t i f f ' s Exhibit #49 is a document authored by Pierre R. Wilkins June 20, JAM ES MAY R E P O R TIN G SER V IC E L 1 1 9 79, and appears to be to members of the Ad Hoc Committee, 2 and you're one of the recipients of i t , right? 3 A That's correct. , 4 Q And attached is a news release draft 5 in response to charges about dioxin exposure in the 6 I&nawha River, is n 't that correct? 7 A That's right. 8 Q And in the news pressrelease the 9 company states that their capability of detection down 10 to 10 parts per trillio n , they were able to find no 11 dio xin , is that correct? 12 A That's righ t, 13 Q And they characterized thatas the 14 rough equivalent of one crystal of common table salt in 15 an olympic-size swimming pool f il l e d with water, right? 16 A That's right. 17 Q Hand you what's been markedP l ^ i n t i f f c 1 18 E xhibit #132 (Monsanto id entificatio n #8323065 through 19 #8323070, in c lu siv e ), and ask you to take a look at that. 20 P la in tiffs' Exhibit 132, which con 21 sists of 6 pages, is a memo from Jan Yung to F . C. Meyer 22 on June 21 , 1979, concerning the study of Nltro Plant 23 workers beginning the week of the 11th of June, 1979, right? 24 A That's correct, 25 Q And you're shown as getting a copy of JAMES MAY R E PO R TIN G SER VIC E L 1 . that, correct? 2 A That's correct. 3 Q And it states thisstudy was done at 4 - the Putnam Health Clinic f a c i l i t i e s , right? 5 A That's right. 6 Q And it lists by date the number of 7 people who participated in that study, i s n 't that correct? 8 A That's correct. 9 Q And the number is 43 6, right? 10 A That's what it says here. There's also 11 a column that shows 15 additions and 36 cancellations. 12 Q But, I take i t , the part that says 13 "participated'' would be the ones that participated? 14 A Says, "p a rtic ip a ted , 4 3 6 , cancellations, 15 36, additions, 1 5 ." The fin a l total was 436. 16 Q Of course, i f you look above^ there's 17 a correction that says 4 3 6 , right? 18 A That's correct. 19 Q Then pages 5 and 6 give the identity 20 of the people that participated in the study, rig h t, from 21 the University of Cincinnati? '22 A That's r ig h t . University of Cincinnati 23 group is id e n tifie d . 24 Q Hand you w hat's been marked P la in t if f s ' 25 Exhibit #51 (Monsanto ic e n tific a tio n # 8 3 2 3 1 3 3 ), ask you JAM ES MAY R E P O R T IN G S ER V IC E 1 to take a look at that. 2 Exhibit 51 is a memo from Mr. Wilkins 3 to the Task Force members, dated June 2 7 , 1979, is it not? 4 A Yes, it is. s ; Q It deals with a list of questions 6 and answers to help you prepare for the release of the 7 Selikoff health study, right? 8 A Right. 9 Q There is an attachment we do n't see^i 10 to have. Do you recall those questions and answers? 11 A Heavens no. That's four years ago. 12 Q States in the second paragraph describ 13 ing the answers, "Those answers are in somewhat a con 14 versational tone but offer rational answers to the sort 15 of adversarial queries we can exp ect," right? 16 A That's r ig h t. 17 Q * Why did you think that you would get 18 a negative or bad report from the S e lik o ff Mt. Sinai study? 19 A I hardly think this shows that I would 20 have expected anything. I'm being told here what someone 21 else expects. 22 Q O .K . Hand you what's been marked 23 P l a in t if f s ' E xh ibit #52 (Monsanto id en tifica tio n #8323145 24 and # 8 3 2 3 1 4 6 ), s i r . 25 P l a i n t if f s ' E xhibit 52 is a memo from JA M ES MAY R E P O R T IN G SER V IC E 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 U 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ' F . J . Iiolzapfel, dated July 2 , 1979, with the subject being Nitro Health Study Tfesk Force, Minutes of Meeting 6 /2 8 /7 9 , and you' re one of the persons to receive a copy of that, is n ' t that correct? A That' s correct. Q O .K . Down there in "Items Discussed1' under L ( c ) , "Question and answer anticipated upon release of Se lik o ff study summary. Wilkins distributed with request for comments pnd additions. Discussion at 7/6 meeting," right? A That' s right. Q Then I. (d) deals with the Monsanto Mortality Data on personnel involved In 1949 incident, correct? A Correct. Q The data that they were gaining there, would that h e the Suskind-Zack study that was published in January of 1980 in the Journal of Occupational Medicine? A I'm not sure which one of those two studies that were conducted by Judith Zack Is referred to here. I don' t recall the dates, relative dates of the two. In one case mortality study was done on those persons involved in the 1949 in cident. In the second case the total plant population mortality study was done, I ' m not sure which one' s being referred to here. JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G SER VIC E i 3 1 Q The total plant study, has it tena 2 published? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Can you tell me where it was published? 5 A I believe that's the one that was pub 6 lished in the J .O .M . Hare ag^in , i t 's been better than 7 three and a h a lf years since it*3 been published, and 8 I ' m not sure of the dates of those things, nor am I 9 absolutely certain of a l l the journals it may have 10 appeared in. 11 Q It states, "Meyer reports that this data 12 should be available by 8 /1 for possible use in partial 13 response to publication of Selilcoff d a t a ," does It not? o 14 A That's right. 15 Q Hand, you w hat'sbeenmarked Plaintiffs* l E xhibit #53 (Monsanto identificatio n #233691 through 17 # 233694, in c l u s i v e ). 18 P la in tiffs* Exhibit 53 is a document 19 which has an attachment marked as page 2, page 3 and page 20 4 from Pierre R. Wilkins to members of the Ad Hoc Committee, 21 and i t 's dated July 3 , 1979," i s n 't that rig h t, sir? 22 A That's right. 23 Q What is attached is a draft of the 24 preparedness statement responding to the release of the 25 Selikoff health study, is n ' t that right? JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G SER VIC E l 1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 - 21 . 22 23 24 25 . A That's right. Q And, I take i t , lie's anticipating what this study's going to say, i s n 't he? A I ca n 't speak for what Mr. Wilkins thought. Q W ell, let me ask you th is, "So let roe state the scenario upon which this is based. 1, the health study w ill not only include data about variour health effects but w ill specifically allege that there are workplace problems at the p la n t." Says that, doesn't it? A It says that, yes. Q " 2 , Those problems w ill extend beyond diox Ln and PAB exposure," says that, too, doesn't it? A Sa vs tha t . Q And 3, "We should not impute the methodology or medical v alid ity of tha Ht. Sinai work but point out that these findings are not conclusive u n til further evaluated and subjected to peer review ," right? A That's stated for any study, that's right. Q Tell the jury what peer review means. A I t means that a group of peers, in other words, people in the same fie ld of expertise, would review the data to be sure the conclusions drawn from JA M E S MAY R E PO R TIN G SER VIC E l f  y ! 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 IQ n 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 * that data are correct prior to its publication. Q And in number 5 it says, nWe must be equally circumspect in what we say or imply about the Suskind results," right? A That's right. Q W ell, how could you worry about the results of either one of these studies when you haven't seen them? A I believe that's the reason that you'd be concerned. You d o n 't know what they are going to shew and you have to be prepared to respond to whatever these studies show. Q Before a study is released for the scientific community and general public, it has to be peer reviewed, doesn't it? A No. There are ways it can be published in non-peer review journals. Q You knew whether the S e lik o ff group makes it a habit or practice of not being peer reviewed? A I have no idea what their habits or practices are. Q Well, in any event, your statement, by way of summary, is that you say you must be peer reviewed before any conclusions can be made about the past or present health or safety environment of Monsanto's JAM ES MAY R E P O R TIN G SER V IC E lf i 1 Nifcro Plant, right? Vy 2 3 A That's right. Q And that the Mt. S in a i study is just one of three separate distin c t studies being made of 5 the work environment of the Nitro Plant, i s n 't that right? 6 A That's right. 7 Q Then you go into the University of 8 Cincinnati's morbidity study, is n 't that right? 9 A That's right. 10 Q That one being done bySuskind, correct? 11 A That's what it says. 12 Q And that that should be published 13 later in the year, right? 14 A Yes, th at's what it says. We have to 15 keep in mind that a l l of these are statements on a draft. 16 Not a fin al publication. 17 Q On the third page of P l a i n t i f f 's Ex 18 h ib it 53 about halfway down, it states, " F i r s t , a re 19 cent analysis of mortality rates of employees exposed 20 to dioxin in the 1949 incident indicates that there is 21 no substantial variance betv^en the m ortality rates 22 of the plant workers and the American public as a w h o le ," 23 is that what it says? -- 24 A No. I t says, "no statistic al variance." 25 Not "substantial." JAM ES MAY R E P O R T IN G S ER V IC E 1 t 1 2 3 45 ,6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q Other then that? A Other than that th a tfs correct. Q And, of course, that would be the Suskind and Zack study in the Journal of Occupational Medicine? A As I said before,. I'm not sure which one of those two studies was published in the J .O .M . Q Ttiat would be the 121 people they were working with? A That's what this indicates to me, yes. Q Did you do any of the work concerning the Suskind and Zack mortality table study? A No. Q But in your job you would receive copies of everything that's done? A Oh, sure. I t 's my job to be informed, even though that I d id n 't do the work. Q Pardon me. A I t 's my job to be informed of it even i f I d id n 't do the work. Q What they are doing in Exhibit 53 is anticipating the study coming put and making a statement for a press release to counteract any adverse effect of it , is n 't that correct? A What they are doing is drafting a JAM ES MAY R E PO R TIN G S ER V IC E 1 4 1 statement v;hich is subject to much review: and correction 2 prior to its release. 3 (Whereupon a lunch recess was taken, 4 after which the following proceedings were 5 had.) 6 Q (By Mr. Pratt) S i r , I hand you v;hatts 7 been marked P la in t iffs * Exhibit #133 (Monsanto id e n tifi 8 cation # 2 3 3 7 9 5 ), and ask you to look at that. 9 P l a i n t if f s ' Exhibit 133 is a memo 10 from Dan R. Bishop, dated July 5 , 1979, and i t 's Nitro 11 Q and A Suggestions, i t 's to P. R. W ilk in s, and you're 12 one of the persons who received a copy of it , right? 13 A Right. 14 Q Now, what was thepurpose of this 15 document, anyway? ` 16 A From what it says in the fir s t sen 17 tence, suggest changes in some of the answers to a 18 number of questions, A l , 2, 3 and 8. 19 Q 20 thing? This one's for press releases or some 21 A It doesn' t say. 22 Q F irst question deals withDr. Wallace 23 who has been there 26 or 27 years, and says he has not 24 seen any abnormal rate of those kinds of symptoms or 25 problems, is that correct? JA M ES MAY R E P O R TIN G SER VIC E lV 1 A That' s what it says. 2 Q Goas on to say there are periodic 3 physical examinations at the individual's discretion A and not mandatory, right? 5 A Nor can they be, that's right. 6 Q Then in A2, answer states that in 1957 7 chloracne was found to be caused by dioxin, is that correct? 8 A That's what it says. 9 Q That's from a Germanstudy, is it not? 10 A Do esn't say that here. Ihave no id^a 11 where he got that. 12 Q Answer to number 3 , states to take 13 care of the medical for the people with chloracne and 14 you gave them a 4 cent per hour premium pay,right? 15 A Says they got it . 16 Q Hand you w hat's been marked P l a i n t i f f s 1 17 Exhibit i-134 (Monsanto identification #8323177 and 18 # 8323178) and ask you to take a look at that. 19 P l a i n t if f s ' Exhibit #134 is a document 20 authored by Dan R. Bishop on July 6 of 1979. The sub .21 ject is Nitro Health Studies, and i t 's to the Committee, 22 Is it not, and you're one of the people shown there, sir? 23 A Yes. 24 Q On the second page,which we do not 25 have a copy of, it says, "I'v e , also attached copies of JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G SERVICE t 1 an ed ito rial on Agent Orange from the July 5 edition 2 of the New York Times and a letter published in a Charles 3 ton newspaper authored by a leading Charles ton area ortho 4 pedic surgeon and prominent community leader." Do you 5 know what those documents said? 6 A No, I do not. 7 Q We do not have copies of them. 8 Hand you what's been marked P l a in t if f s 1 9 Exhibit #74 (Monsanto identification #8323203 through 10 #3323205, in c lu s iv e ), and ask you to take a look at that. 11 P l a i n t i f f s 1 exhibit #74 appears to be 12 a three-page document authored by F. J. Hol^apfel, dated 13 July 9, 1979. Subject matter is Nitro Health Study Task 14 Force, Minutes of Meeting 7 / 6 / 7 9 , is that correct, sir? 15 A That's correct. l Q And those present were Messrs. Bishop, 17 Holzapfel, Meyer, McCarville, Nelscn for Callis, Park, 18 Scott, yourself ana W ilkins, is n 't that right? 19 A That's right. 20 Q The fir s t item subject is i ( a ) , "Analy^ .21 sis of Mortality Experience of Those Involved in 1949 In c i d e n t /1 that's what it says, right? 23 A That's right. 24 Q And Meyer reported that the results 25 were complete, results were not startling, mortality data JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G SER VIC E l O 1 better than for general population, right? 2 A That's right, 3 Q Arid agreed that we should issue a press release based on this by July 15th to beat any 5 possible release by S e lik o ff, that's what it says, right 6 A That's what it says. 7 Q Why would you want to beat S e lik o ff's 8 study? 9 A I think for the valuable information 10 that this would provide to the,public. First fellow 11 on the block gets most of the attention. Since we had 12 something good to say, we wanted that to be duly noted 13 and not overshadowed by somebody else*s report. 14 Q Let me ask you this, do you have f ir s t 15 hand knowledge of the v alidity of that study? 1 A In what regard would I have it? I'm 17 not sure how you're asking me that question. 18 Q V.'ha t I'm getting a t , did you do any 19 of the work on that: study? 20 A No, I did not, 21 Q In other words, what you're relying 22 upon, because in later documents you're involved with 23 the media which are relying on you for the authenticity 24 of the study for others in the company, is that right? 25 A Yes, that's right. JAM ES MAY R E PO R TIN G SER VIC E 1 - >' 1 1 \ '2 3 r .... 4/ " 5- 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 J23 24 25 Q Under I,(b) of P la in tiffs* Exh ibit 74 it says, ''Moses1 (Selikoff) testimony before House Subcommittee on Oversight and Investigations, 6 / 2 6 / 7 9 , " is n 't that correct, sir? A That's correct. Q I'm not sure who this is on. "Distributed copies, indicates health survey on Nitro workers ha? been completed." Who are they talking about there, do you have any idea? A Nitro workers. Q Is that Selikoff*-s study? A Since i t 's under that heading, I presume so. Q Goes on to say that catalogs of a l l the suspected effects of dioxin on human healtn -- allowing reader to infer that these conclusions were based on such health study. Would that, aga in , be the testimony of Moses or Selik o ff in the House Subcommittee on Oversight and Investigations? A I c a n 't say. I d o n 't know what the testimony was. I did n 't hear it . I haven't read it and I don't have a copy here to look a t . Q Then on page 2 of E xhibit 74 at the boctom under item (m), it says, " D i s c u s s i o n o f Wilkins' preparedness statement of 7 / 3 , " i s n 't that correct? JAM ES MAY R E P O R T IN G SER V IC E l - i .. 1 1 A That's what it says. 2 Q "Extensive discussion -- Wilkins w ill 3 redraft. Decided to sharpen distinction between Mon 4 santo's awn compilation and analysis of past medical 5 histories and the two current health studies of Sellkoff 6 and Suskind." Are they referring to a compilation of 7 medical histories that Monsanto did? 8 A last medical histories is what it 9 refers to, and I would expect that that is exactly what 10 they mean. They say, "compilation and analysis of past 11 medical h is t o r i e s ." 12 Q Would Sus kind have gotten a copy of that? 13 A He may have, but I c a n 't say that from 14 my own knowledge. 15 Q Would Sellkoff have gottena copy? 16 A Again, same answer. 17 Q Then on page 3 of that e x h ib it , "W ill 18 issue a news release as soon as possible on the mortality 19 data for those involved in the 1949 incident and such 20 other data for which the analysis is complete," 21 A That's what it says. 22 Q That would be the Suskindand Zack study? 23 A I'm not sure. Again, there were two 24 studies. One, I believe, was Zack and the second was 25 Suskind and Zack, and those two are not totally clear in JA M E S MAY R E P O R TIN G SER VIC E 1 ray mind as to their time. 2 Q O .K . Hand you what's been marked 3 P l a i n t if f s 1 E xh ibit 135 (Monsanto identification #8331253 4 through #8331259 and #5331262 through #8331271, inclusive) 5 for you to look a t . 6 O .K . P l a i n t if f s 1 Exhibit 135 consists 7 of 17 pages. I t 's a document from Dan R. Bishop of 8 July 13, 1979, to the members of the Health Study Task 9 Force, is n 't that correct, sir? 10 A That's correct. 11 Q And the subject of that is Nitro 12 Position Statement and Backup Q and A 1s , right? 13 A Right. 14 Q And , a g a in , this document, there is a 15 draft of 7 /1 2 /7 9 which is found on pages 2, 3 , 4 , is 16 that right? 17 A * Yes. 18 Q And a draft, again, of 7 /1 2 /7 9 , Q and 19 A, Nitro Health Studies, that's on 5 , 6, 7, right? 20 A Correct. 21 Q And page 8 of P la in t iffs ' Exhibit 135, 22 there's a cover document by the same person of August 23 7, 1979, and i t 's a Revised Nitro Position Statement, 24 is n 't that right? 25 A Right. JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G SER VIC E Q And the fir s t paragraph states, "Attached for your information it- the revised position statement we intend to go with as our first line of defense when Dr. Selikoff issues his report," is n 't that right? A That's right. Q And says, "Please des troy the previous statement dated July lj and replace it with this v ersio n ," is n 't that correct? A Correct. Q On page 15, question 2 and the answer, "Question, How does Monsanto ju stify continuing the manufacture of 2,4,5- T until 1969 when workers continued to contract chloracne," and w ill you read that answer, s i r . A "Dioxin was not chemically identified until 1957, and, of course, its relationship to chloracne was not established until that time. However, following the.1949 incident, Monsanto revised its 2,4 ,5 - T process, instituted additional safety and industrial hy-* giene practices and later built an entirely new unit for the manufacture of the h erb ic id e ." Q Let me ask you this, have you ever viewed any of the documents on the amount of TDD that the new plant in Building 92 was showing?. : A No, I'v e not seen those documents. Q V7hat additional safety and industrial JAM ES MAY R E PO R TIN G SER VIC E i -h :1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 ?1 22 23 24 25 hygiene practices were put in from '55 to ! 61? A I cannot tell you that. I was not there, and I have no information to that effect in front of me. Q Do you have an opinion as to what the parts per m illion, parts per b il l io n , parts per t r illio n , what is the toxicity of tetrachlorodibenzo-para-dioxin? A You would have to be specific as to which animal species you1re talking about because it varies greatly from one to the other. Q How about man? A I'm not sure we know exactly what the toxic level for LD-50, i f you w i l l , in humans is . That type of experimentation certainly is unacceptable, ana there is no way to develop that kind of knowledge. Q W e ll, is it the company1s position, has it been the company's position that the only thing that 2 , 3 , 7 , 8 tetrachlorodibenzo-para-dioxin has caused is chloracne? A Yes, I think we can say that's not only the company's position but i t 's the opinion of many medical experts throughout the world, not only ours. Q Hand you what's been marked P l a i n t if f s ' Exhibit #136 (Monsanto id entificatio n #8323234 and #8323235) 9 and ask you to look at that. P la in tiffs' Exhibit 136 is , again, a i It JAM ES MAY R E P O R T IN G SER V IC E -i 1 memo from Dan R. Bishop on July 16, 1979. The subject 2 is Nitro Health Study Task Force, Minutes of Meeting of 3 7 /1 3 /7 9 , and while you' re not present, apparently, you . 4 were given a copy of that, right? > 5 A Yes. 6 Q Turning to item la , which is entitled 7 "Selikoff Preparedness Statenent/Q and A !s . n It states, 8 "Revised drafts of this material were subjected to final 9 scrutiny and final modifications were incorporated. These 10 documents (attached) should now be considered as approved, II 11 it states that, doesn't it , sir? 12 A Yes, it does. 13 Q "Evergreen documents and w il l consti 14 tute our fir s t line of defense when the attack occurs." 15 What are evergreen documents? 16 A These are documents that would remain 17 in existence and be updated as they improve our knowledge. 18 As we find new truths to be placed into them, they would 19 be placed in the proper place. 20 Q Thai under xb, "N itr o Mortality Study." 21 States, "Drs . Roush and Meyer w ill meet with Dr. Suskind 22 in Cincinnati on July 16 and attempt to get his approval 23 to release this data early as a news r e l e a s e ." is that 24 what it says? 25 A That's what it says. JA M ES MAY R E P O R T IN G S ER V IC E t 'f 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 :21 22 23 24 25 Q "PR strongly recommends against a joint (Suskind/Monsanto) news r e le a s e ." That's also stated, right? A That's also stated. . Q "We feel it could compromise his c red ib ility and his independence -- extremely important aspects of our overall stra teg y ." That's also stated, is n 't it? A Correct. Q " I f a l l goes w e ll, we would issue the news release no later than Wednesday, July 1 8 ," right? A Right. Q Is It Monsanto's position that Suskind is independent from Monsanto in these studies? A Indeed it is , and that's also Dr. Sus- kind's repeatedly stated position. Q W e ll, I asked that for the reason I seem to in the documents come across repeated instances of where Monsanto o ffic ia ls are advising and talking to Dr. Suskind. Even with that you say h e 's independent, Is that right? A I 'm not aware that the o fficia ls have ever advised Dr. Suskind. They have consulted with him, asked his guidance and advice as consultant independent of any company t ie s . His study was performed out of a It JA M ES MAY R E P O R T IN G SER V IC E i i 1 special institute at the University of Cincinnati as a 2 research group. 3 Q He's long been a f f il ia t e d with Monsanto 4 in these studies, though, has he not, since 1949, right? *t 5 A He has been a consultant to Monsanto 6 since that time. 7 Q Do you know whether or not he testified 8 for Monsanto in the 1956, 1957 workmen's compensation 9 hearings .in Charleston, West Virginia 7 10 A I 'm not really sure whether he did or 11 not. I have no direct knowledge of that. He may have. 12 I t w ouldn't be surprising to learn that he did. 13 Q O .K . Hand you what's been marked 14 Fla i n t i f f s ' E xhibit #77 (Monsanto identification #8323245 15 through #8323248, in c lu s iv e ), ask you to take a look at 16 that, s i r . 17 O .K . This is a memo from Dan F,,. Bishop 18 to the Nitro Health Study Task Force on July 20 of 1979, 19 the Minutes of Fleeting of 7 /2 0 /7 9 , is it not? 20 A Yes. ?1 Q And you're'one of thegentlemen that 22 were addressed, right? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Turning topage 2of that document 25 under d , "McCarville reported that Selik o ff w ill do a JA M E S MAY R E PO R TIN G SER VIC E l? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 . : 21 22 23 24 25 health study funded by HEISS In cooperation v;:lth NIOSH and Arkansas Department of Health at the Vertae Plant in Jacksonville, Arkansas," i s n 't that right? A Plight. Q And that's a former Hercules Plant where they made Agent Orange during the war, right? A That's what it says here. Q And over on page 3 of that document it states, " I t ' s generally felt that Seliko ff is getting involved at Vertae to either collaborate his Nitro fin d ings or to find problems he was unable to uncover at N itro , and in either case, be is expected to report the two together in such a way that it w ill be d iffic u lt to sort out one from the o th er," is that correct? A That's what it says. Q Then also on page 3 under e , which is entitled "N itr o Plant Mortality Study," we have a meeting between Meyer, Dr. Roush and Suskind in Cincinnati on July 17 to review a draft of the Mortality Report, is n 't that correct? A That's correct. of that. Q A Q I thought Judith Zack was the author That's correct. W ell, what would your Medical Department JAM ES MAY R E PO R TIN G S ER V IC E l be doing reviewing a draft of that report with Suskind? A The epidemiology group is part of that Medical Department. Dr. Roush as Director of it would have Epidemiology reporting to hiGi. Q You don* t find it strange that the co-author, Mrs. Zack, was not present at that meeting? A Not at a l l since she reported to Dr. Meyer. Q O .K . Than over on page 4 of P l a i n t if f s 1 E xhibit #77 I note that in the Charleston Nitro area that Monsanto has hired an outside PR firm called Ryan and Associates, is n 't that right? A Correct. Q Hand you what's been marked P l a i n t if f s ' E xhibit 78 (Monsanto identification #236205 through #236208, in c lu s iv e ), and ask you to take a look at it , s ir . P l a in t if f s ' Exhibit #78 is a four-page document authored by Dan R. Bishop on July 27 , 1979, the subject being Nitro Health Study Task Force, Minutes of Meeting 7 /2 7 /7 9 , and it doesn't show that you were there. A Tha t ' s c orre c t . Q Did you ever see this document? A Apparently not. I have not i f not been included in the distribution. Q Hand you what's been marked P la in t iffs ' JA M E S MAY R E PO R TIN G SER VIC E i , 1 1 1 2 3 "4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Exhibit #S0 (Monsanto identification 236212 through #236215, Inclusive), which consists of four pages, ash you to take a look at that, s ir . O .K . This document, P l a i n t if f s ' Ex- hibit 80, is authored by F. J . Kolzapfel, dated August 6 of 1979. The subject is Nitro Health Study Task Force, Minutes of Meeting of 8 / 3 / 7 9 , ana you are a recipient of tliat document, right? A Right. Q O .K . I f you would turn to page 2 under paragraph 2, "Suskind Study - Allocation of Costs." Is it your understanding tliat Monsanto paid for this study? A Monsanto paid a portion of the cost. , Q Who else paid for it? A The National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences and the University of C in cin n a ti's -- I'v e forgotten- the precise name of this group -- but it was shared in part by the other two organizations as w e l l / Q Do they know the total cost of this study? A I'm sure someone does. Q W ell, i t 's s t i l l going on. That's v?hj; I'm wondering if there Is a total b i l l on that. A I have no Idea what the cost would ba. I don't get involved in financial aspects of things like this. l l JAM ES MAY R E PO R TIN G SER V IC E i 1 2 3 4 5 * 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 \ 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q Who would be Involved? A I can*t give you a name, I can cell you it would probably be id entifiab le through the Accounting people or fin an cia l people in the company. Q Under 3 it says, "Suskind Study - Followup to Employees," right? A Oh, yes. Q And the f ir s t and second paragraph? deal with Suskind*s office have advised the Ilitro Plant nurse that they were contacting the physicians of a ll - people ana the nurse was getting inquiries from thosi- examined concerning the r e s r lt s , right? A Right. Q Second paragraph under 3 says, "The group recommends that feedback be provided.to a ll era- ployees as soon as -possible,u the group being the Ad'Hoc Committee, I take i t , right? A The group as stated here is the Ad Hoc Committee, I expect, and the people to be Informed were the people to be examined. ^ Q Says, " Dr. Gaffey w ill discuss this with Dr. Roush to determine who in DMEH w il l contact Dr.Sutkind,* right? A Right. Q And there was three alternatives that JA M ES MAY R E P O R T IN G SER V IC E ii l r ) 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 \ were discussed: A letter from Suskincl's office to each employee', a letter from the Plant Manager and group meetings at Nitre* right? A Right, Q Do you kne*? v?hich they did or if they did anything? A Yes, Dr. Suskind sent each employee a copy of a report of his findings of each employee's examination. Q Hand you what's been marked P la in t iffs ' Exhibit #138 (Monsanto id entificatio n #8323313 through #8323315, inclusive) and ask you to take a look at that. P la in t iffs ' Exhibit #138, the author appears to be Mr. Holzapfel, dated August 20, 1979. I t 's a Nitro Health'Study Task Force, Minutes of Meeting of 8 /1 7 , to the Committee. I c a ll your attention to page 1, "M ortality Study ." There it states, "D r . Suskind has suggested some changes in the draft of Monsanto's 'Mortality Study' which we would like to submit for publication in a reputable journal," is n 't that correct,sir? A That's correct. Q "D r . Guffey (and possibly other DMEH personnel) w ill v is it Suskind week 8 /2 0 in an effort to resolve differences and avoid further delay in publicatio n ." That's also stated, is that right? JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE t 5' ' T1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 A That' s right. Q And under 3 of page 1, get back to Dr. S e lik o ff, "S e l i k o f f Study at V e r t a c ," that' s the heading, right? A That' s right. Q States, "D r . Meyer called Selikoff who reported that some 200 people were involved in the Vertac study, that the cases seemed more active than those at Nitro and that he was s t i l l analyzing the Nitro data," isn' t that correct, sir? A That' s correct. Q On page 2 of E xhibit 138 at the top under 4 , it says, "Feedback to Employees from Suskind Examination," isn ' t that right, sir? A Tha t ' s r ig h t . Q I t states, "As part of v is it to Suskind week 8 /2 0 , Dr.- Meyer w il l press for feedback to employees whose examinations have not revealed anything serious enough to warrant feedback to their physicians (see attached memo of 8 /8 from 0 . Dolin for status report on health study .) " What would that h?ve been about, sir? A Are you talking about the attached memo or part of the Suskind v is it ? I ' m not sure what you' re asking me about. Q About the Suskind v is it . JA M ES MAY R E P O R T IN G S ER VIC E t l . r, 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 - 22 23 24 25 1 A Obviously what they are trying to do is get Dr. Suskind to report back to individuals who have not had previous communication about the results of their examination. Q Goes on to say, "K o lzap fel w ill determine whether Dr.Wallace (Nitro Plant doctor) has been contacted by any of the physicians who have been contacted by either Suskind or S e l i k o f f ," right? A Right. Q Hand you what's been marked P l a i n t if f s 1 E x h ib it #83 (Monsanto identification 6323316 through #8323320, in c lu s iv e ), ask you to look at that, sir? P l a i n t i f f s ' Exhibit #83 purports to be a memo from F. J. Holzapfel, dated August 24 , 1979, the subject being Nitro Health Study Task Force, Minutes of Meeting of 8 /2 4 /7 9 , listing a l l those present, and I 'm asking you i f that' s not a document that you have seen, sir? A Yes. Q Turning to page 2 of that document, the top paragraph on page 2 entitled "Monsanto Mortality Study." A Right. Q First paragraph relates that the draft has not been accepted by Suskind yet but he promises he JAM ES MAY R E PO R TIN G SER VIC E t ?* l 1 1 w ill review it next week, right? }\ 2 3 A Right. Q And that b r . Meyer w il l follow up on .4 that, right? * 5 A Right. 6 Q Paragraph 3 states that the Carbide - - 7 Carbide is a chemical company out there locally, right? 8 A Carbide is a chemical company which 9 has several plants in the Charleston area. 10 Q Carbide University of Pittsburgh 11 study involved 819 deceased employees who had been em- 12 ployed at its South Charleston Plant, that's what it 13 states in that fir s t sentence, right? 14 A Right. 15 Q Goes on to say that, ''Carbide's study 16 showed higher than normal incidence of three types of 17 cancer and led to the larger 4C ,000 man epidemiology 18 study announced last w eek." That was also stated, right? 19 A Right, 20 Q Then in the fin a l paragraph of section ; -21 2 , "We must be prepared to differentiate between the two 22 kinds of studies, i f our future news release is to have 23 c r e d i b il it y ," does it not? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Goes on to state, " D r . Gaffey explained JA M ES MAY R E P O R T IN G SER VIC E l : I 1 that a study which included only deceased employees r ^ 2 would be expected to show more cancer than a study of 3 an entire group (living and dead) that had been exposed -4 to an ' incident" such as ours in 1 9 4 9 ,11 right? 5 A Right. 6 Q So what he"s saying is that the Carbide 7 study, because they studied deceased persons alone, 8 would not have v alid ity , right? 9 A No, that's not right. 10 Q W ell, h e's saying that it would have a 11 higher incidence of cancer? 12 A That's right. That doesn 't say i t 's 13 not a valid study. 14 Q Under section3, back to the Suskind 15 study, that's the morbidity study, is it not, sir? 16 A I expectthat's what'sbeen referred to. 17 Q Dr. Suskind advised Dr. Meyer that 18 h e 'l l send a report to each patient examined, to the 19 man's personal physician and send a letter to each man 20 examined advising that the f i l e 's been sent to his ,,21 physician, that's what is stated there, right? ` 22 A R igh t. 23 Q Then it goes on to state, "We understand 24 that the Monsanto medical community w il l receive a copy 25 of the test results for that in div id u a l's medical f i l e . " JAMES MAY R EPO R TIN G SER VIC E i 1 Are they referring to the local Nitro Plant getting a copy? 2 A I would expect that' s what's meant 3 by this. 4 Q Then it goes on to state, in essence, 5 that Dr. Meyer w ill try to resolve any problem with this 6 man, is that right? 7 A Yes. I believe that relates to the 8 confusion as to when that letter would be sent. 9 Q Hand you what's been marked P la in t iffs ' 10 Exhibit 84 (Monsanto identification 8331273 and # 8331274), 11 ask you to look at that, s ir . 12 P l a in t if f s ' E xhibit 84, s i r , is a memo 13 from F. C. Meyer, dated August 27 , 1979, and the subject 14 is 'Phone Discussion with Dr. Ray Suskind, re; Nitro 15 Health Studies, is it not? 16 A Yes. 17 Q . And you'rewere one of therecipients 18 of that document, is that correct? 19 A Correct. 20 Q On paragraph 1on page 1 of P l a in t if f s ' : 21 Exhibit 84 it says, " H e ," and I suppose they mean Sus 22 kind, "has the *1949 accident' mortality revised publi 23 cation slated for Journal of Occupational Medicine and 24 agrees it should go out this w eek." That's what's stated 25 here, right? JAM ES MAY R E P O R T IN G SER VIC E t A Right. Q States a ls o , "He is reviewing ittoday and w ill call later in the day to discuss, .1 volunteered . i ** * J . Zack and William Gaffey, if necessary, to v is it Cincinnati for resolution of any problems which cannot be handled by ' phone," is n 11 that right? A That's right. Q And under paragraph 2 , dealswith the Nitro Health Study carried out June 11 through 18 con cerning communications of in d iv id u a ls1 results that have been carried out or are in process. That would be the morbidity study, right? A Yes. Q It states under a , "F a ir ly soon after the exams, for several patients found to have symptoms needing immedipte followup (not necessarily related to work exposure)-, 'phone contacts were made w ith the patient's physicians," right7 A Yes. Q And under 2b, that deals with the patients who signed a consent form, that the reports would go to their doctors w ith a letter of confirmation to the patients, right? ;V.: A That's right. Q And under c , a letter saying that the JA M ES MAY R E P O R T IN G SER VIC E 1 1 results were complete and a consent form.going back 2 so that they can,.send the reports to their physicians, 3 is n 't that correct? 4* A Correct. . 5 Q And that sample copies of those letters 6 would be sent to Dr. F. C. Meyer in St. Louis, right? 7 A Right. 8 Q On page 2 of thatdocument, s ir , para 9 graph 3 , apparently, Suskind related the fact that he 10 had attended an early August interagency meeting in 11 Washington on 2 ,4 ,5 - T and 2,4-D held by NTOSH, OSHA, 12 NIEHS: or reported orally on the-progress of the Nitro f 13 study, is n 't that right? V/ 14 A That's r ig h t . 15 Q Then it also makes referencein para 16 graph 3, S e lik o ff being there and he only mentioned 17 Nitro privately and talked about Vertac examinations 18 and as an example of a , quote, clean, I think it is , 19 2,4rD exposure and further mentioned his preliminary 20 examination of workers handling pentachlorophenol in a 21 Weyerhauser wood treating plant in Arkansas, that's a l l 22 in there? 23 A Except it says 2 ,4 ,5 - T on my copy. 24 Q Mine's cut o ff. I t 's 2 ,4 ,5 - T , fine. 25 Paragraph 4 says, "Suskind was informed JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G SER V IC E L that B ill Gaffey would contact h i* today concerning data on PAB exposed em ployees/' That's what's stated there, right? A Right. Q His study, as I understand it , was on dioxin. Was he studying PAB on these employees, also? A No, he was not studying it but he had to consider it as a factor which would help to explain the finding of excessive number of bladder cancers in that study group. That's to make sure you don't relateit to the wrong exposure. (Whereupon a short recess was taken, a fter which the following proceedings were h ad.) Q (By Mr. Pratt) Hand you what'sbeen marked P l a i n t if f s ' E xh ibit #55 (Monsanto identification #8323334.,#8323335 and # 8 3 2 3 3 3 6 ), ask you to look at that. P la in t iffs 1 E xhibit #56, s i r , purports to be a memo from F. J . Holzap fel, dated September 4 , 1979, with the subject matter being Nitro Health Study Task Force, Minutes of Meeting of 8 / 3 1 / 7 9 , and that you were present, is that correct? A That's correct. Q And the leadinparagraph states, "Re statement of Task Force Objectives - 'To ensure that Nitro do esn 't become Monsanto's Love C a n a l .1" States JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G SER V IC E that, doesn't it, sir? A Yes, it does. Q Do you ensure that you d o n 't have a Love Canal with publicity, sir? A I do n't see anything that refers to publicity in that. But, yes, you do because what you do is give the public factual information instead of emotional issues to deal with. Q Is It your statement that Love Canal was an emotional issue rather than a factual one? A I do indeed believe that was 9S:i of the problem at Love Canal as opposed to factual issue showing any true problems there. Q Turn to page 3 of P la in t iffs ' Exhibit ir56 , s ir . Under 7, ''Mortality Study," states, does It not, "Meyer reports Suskinc s t i l l procrastinating on release of study for publication. Meyer to try to re solve remaining issues (ego-related) this week." Is that what it says? A That's what it says. Q In paragraph 6 it says, "Recent Chloracne Cases. Judy Zack has reviewed records and identi fied about 300 employees hired since January, '7 3 , " right? A Right. Q And you were to review the medical JA M ES MAY R E PO R TIN G SER VIC E 1 records to identify chloracne cases in this group. ; 2 Did you do that? 1 3 A I ' d have to go back into my records 4 and be sure. 5 Q What would be the purpose of that work, 6 sir? 7 A I t 's very simple. To determine whether 8 or not we are s t i l l seeing chloracne in people who had 9 no known or identifiable exposure to the 2 , 4 , 5-T 10 operation or any of the materials, equipment involved n in that operation. 12 Q Did you find any out of those 303 13 people to have chloracne? 14 A I do n 't recall what the findings of 15 my study were. I'm not sure when that was completed 16 or what I wrote on that. I ' d have to go back in my 17 file s to see .exactly what I said. To the best of my 18 knowledge, we did not see chloracne in this group of 19 people. 20 Q Hand you what' s been marked P l a i n t i f f s 1 21 Exhibit #57 (Monsanto id entificatio n #8323340 through 22 #8323342; in clu siv e), which is a three-page document 23 authored by F. J . Holzapfel, dated September 10, 1979, 24 and the subject is Nitro Health Study Task Force, 25 Minutes of Meeting September 7 , 1979, and you' re shown JAM ES MAY R E PO R TIN G SER VIC E t <> 1 on the list of recipients, is that correct, sir? 2 A Tfcat1s c orrcc t . 3 Q And under paragraph 1, "Mortality 4 Study," it states, "Suskind s t ill in sistin g on in 5 clusion of references to his past speeches and is 6 pursuing with editor of journal. Expect to reach de 7 cision next week," is n 't that right? 8 A That's right. 9 Q And goes on to ray, "Acceptance for 10 publication at least six weeks away, thus, p ro d u c in g 11 any news release on our part until th en," right? 12 A R ig h t. 13 Q That might have been why Mr. Holzapf|el 14 referred tc ego-related problem in Exhibit 5 6 , right? 15 A That's possible . 16 Q Hanc you what's been narked P l a i n t if f s ' 17 Exhibit #58 (Monsanto identification #8525370 through 'i 18 8323372, in clu siv e), ask you to look at that, s ir . 19 P la in t iffs ' Exhibit #58 consists of 20 three pages authored, apparently, by F. J . H olzapfel, 21 dated October 1, 1S79, subject of which is Nitro Health r 22 Study Task Force, Minutes of Meeting of 9 /2 8 , and you're 23 a recipient, is that correct? 24 A 'That's correct. 25 Q On page 1 of that document, paragraph JAMES MAY R E P O R TIN G SER VIC E 2 , it states, "M ortality Study. Suskind hps completed his quibbling and the document has been received by the Jounral of Occupational Medicine. Meyer w il l keep in touch," is that correct, sir? A That's right. Q On page 2 of that document under 3 , "Feedback to Employees," it states, "Letters from Scott and Suskind to employees favorably received. Union o fficials chagrined a t lack of communication from | S e l i k o f f ," does it not? A Yes, it does. J Q On number 1 of that same page of P lain t i f f s ' Exhibit 58 states, "S e l ik o f f Seminar , New York, 10/15 through 1 7 ." I t states underneath that, "B ille d as a discussion of recent advances in occupational medicine. Dr. Moses is expected to talk. Discussion on Agent Orange and dioxins seems in e v it a b le ." That's what that states, rig h t, sir? A Yes. Q Then it says, "Tillm an and Wilkins planning to attend. Position paper and Q and A 's seem adequate for responses," does it not, sir7 A Yes. Q And did youattend? A Yes, I did. JAMES MAY R E PO R TIN G SER VIC E Q1 And was Agent Orange and dioxin talked 2 about? 3 A I ' d have to refer back to the program 4 to be sure of a l l the subjects covered, I do recall 5 some discussion of dioxin . 6 Q And did Dr. Moses talk as expected? 7 A Yes, she did. 8 Q She make any reference to the Nitro 9 study? 10 A Nitro was not named. 11 Q Hand you w hat's been marked P la in t iffs ' 12 E xhibit #59 (Monsanto id en tifica tio n #231814 through 13 # 2 3 1 8 1 7 ,in c l u s iv e ), ask you to take a look at t h a t ,s ir . 14 A l l righ t. P l a i n t if f s ' Exhibit #59 15 consists of four pages. The cover letter is a memo 16 from Dan R. Bishop to members of the Nitro Health 17 Study Task Force, dated October 8 , and you're a r e 18 cipient of that, are yoii not, sir? 19 A Correct. 20 Q And it states, "Attached is a draft of 21 the Nitro mortality news release prepared by Pierre 22 W ilk in s. Please look it over and let me have any 23 comments today i f p o s s ib le ." Then there are three 24 pages, are there not? 25 A That's correct. JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G S ER V IC E i ' '1 `1 \2 3 "` * 4' ""**' :s 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 J ^ 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 - 21 V - 22 23 24 25 Q And on page 3 of the document, page 2 of the press relea se, It states in the second fu ll paragraph, "According to the authors, while the size of the worker group was small and the results cannot be considered conclusive, they noted that 'i t is important that no apparent excess of total mortality or in deaths from malignant neoplasms or diseases of the circulatory system was observed in a group of workers with a high peak exposure to TCDD followed over a period of neatly 30 y e a r s ,'" is that correct? A Yes, it does. Q Is there anything of significance other than what I just read In that study? Anything else of significance? A Other than the mortality? Q Other than the fact that according to this study. there was less deaths from cancer and from circulatory diseases than the national average. A W e ll, I think the conclusion that one would draw from that Is that this exposure did not produce any adverse effect which would cause an excess number of deaths or deaths due to cancer. Q Or circulatory disease? A Or circulatory diseases. Q Did you have anything to do with JA M ES MAY R E P O R T IN G SER VIC E l 1 1 selecting the subjects of this study? 2 A No. 3 Q You had no knowledge about that what . 4 soever, right? tv 5 A Not from a participating point of view. 6 I have knew ledge of the study because I did read it 7 a fter it was published. 8 Q And in a group such as th is, this is 9 the only d e fin itiv e study that' s in existence st the 10 present time, right? n A' W e ll,I understand that there is sons 12 studies going on with the exposed group at Seveso in 13 It a l y , an event that occurred some seven years ego, \ J 14 and to date they have not reported any excessive mor 15 ta lity or.excessive cancer either. 16 Q What are the names of those studies, 17 who are the authors? 18 19 20 21 - 22 A I don' t know. The authors are out of Seveso, and I don' t recall a l l of their names, nor do I re ca ll the titles of their paper. I know Dr. Regianni out of Switzerland was involved as a director of some of th is. Q He was a Medical Director of that c lin ic that blew up, wasn' t he? A I ' m not sure i f he was Medical Director JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G SER VIC E 1 of that plant or Corporate Medical Director of Harlan 2 LaRouche that cwned this plant as one of its subsidiaries. 3 Q But other than the Seveso situation, 4 you know of no other definitive study such as this one? 5 A None that we have been involved in. 6 There are many studies going on in reference to t h i s 7 material, however. 8 Q Plaintiffs* Exhibit #60 (Monsanto 9 identification #236245 and # 2 362 46), s i r , consists of 10 of two pages, the author of which appears to be F. J. 11 Holzapfel, dated October 15, 1979, and the subject is 12 the Nitro Health Study Task Force, Minutes of Meeting 13 of 1 0 /1 2 /7 9 , and it appears that you' re on the l is t 14 of those who received this document, is that correct? 15 A That's correct. 16 Q On page 1, number 1, itstates, "Mor 17 tality Study.. Final revisions made in response to 18 comments of editor of Journal of Occupational Medicine. 19 Hope for notice of acceptance for publication by Octo 20 ber 30, thus making possible our news r e le a s e ," is that 21 correct? 22 A That's correct. 23 Q Then on number 3, the same page, i t 24 says, "Suskind Study, Results available December ear 25 l ie s t . Data now ready for computer input and a n a ly s is ," JAMES MAY R E P O R TIN G SER VIC E 1 is that correct? 2 A That' s correct. 3 Q So what h e ' s saying is that he thinks ' 4 he w ill have it done by December of 1S79, i s n 't that 5 correct? 6 A He' s saying that' s the earliest he 7 could have it done. 8 Q And the date is three and a hall years 9 after that, and i t ' s s t il l not done, is it? 10 A That' s correct. 11 Q Hand you what's been marked P la in t iffs ' 12 Exhibit #61 (Monsanto identificatio n # 3 3 2 1 7 8 0 ), con 13 sisting of one page, and ask you to look at that. 14 This is a document authored by Dan 15 R. Bishop, dated October 19, 1979. The subject is 16 Mortality News Release, and i t 's referenced to the 17 Nitro Task Force, and you' re on that l i s t , is that 18 correct, sir? 19 A That' s correct. 20 Q And the paragraph states, "We have 21 received written confirmation from the Journal of 22 Occupational Medicine that the Nitro Mortality Study 23 has been accepted for publication as w ell as approval 24 from Dr. Suskind to release the attached summary news 25 release on Monday, October 22 . We w il l give it wide JAM ES MAY R E P O R TIN G S ER V IC E l 1 Nv: y ^ J 1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 I3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 distribution beginning at 10 A . M . , St. Louis tim e," is n 't tliat right, sir? A Tliat1s right. Q Hand you what's been narked P la in t iffs ' Exhibit #62 (Monsanto identification #8323392 through # 8323 394), ask you to look at that. P la in t iffs ' Exhibit # 62, which is a three-page document authored by F. J . H olzapfel, dated October 29, 1979, the subject natter being Ilitro Health Study Task Force, Minutes of Meeting October 29 , 1979, and it shows that you're recipient of this document, is that right? A That's correct. Q Under paragraph 1, page 1, "M ortality Study ," states that you sent copies to Dr. S e lik o ff, Mr. R a t liff from the Steelworkers, NIOSH, OSHA, NIE3H and Dow at the same tine the news release was issued, right? A That's correct. Q Then there is a paragraph 2 , which is entitled "Feeler from Steelworkers," is that right? A Tha t 1s c orrect. Q There a Dr. Parkinson, who is a consultant to the Steelworkers, had called Dr. Suskind to explore the possibility of having him meet with the JAMES MAY R E PO R TIN G SER VIC E li i Steelworkers to explain the Suskind study, is that right? A Th at' s. rig h t . Q And are they talking about the mortal tty study or are they talking about the morbidity study that h e ' s doing? A As I r e c a l l , that was in reference to Dr. Suskind' s morbidity study of the 436 individuals. Q And, apparently, i t ' s come to some body' s knew ledge 9 and I would take it it would be Mr. H o lza p fel' s, the Steelworkers were irritated at Selik o f f ' s failure to communicate results to those examined by him, right? A That's right. Q The Task Force, meaning a l l of you, agreed that Monsanto should encourage a meeting of Suskind with both Monsanto and the Steelworkers, isn ' t that right? A That' s right. Q And it says, "D r.Tillman w illdeter mine status from Dr. R o ush ." What's that mean? A That means I was to pursue with Dr. Roush the p o ssib ility of having a meeting and ask him to pursue that matter i f he deemed it appropriate. Q Was that done? A Yes. Dr. Parkinson wascontacted, and JA M ES MAY R E P O R T IN G SER V IC E l 1 t V 1 , 1 2 3 . \ ,..,*4 . 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 ^ 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 TI as X recall, he did meet with Dr. Suskind in Cincinnati. Q . Can you tell me why, i f you know, that the Suskind study has never come out? A What I have been told is that this information is so voluminous that it takes considerable time to evaluate i t , tabulate i t , to draw various conelusions to present to certain consultants in the f ie l d , to make sure they are accurate and correct, and having to write the paper after having done this requires a considerable period of time. This is not uncommon for a study like this to take several years following publication. Q There was some talk in previous documents about him being able to fin ish it by December of *79, and i t 's now three and a half years later. Was there some problem with it , that you know of? A Not that I'm aware o f. 'X1m not sure that it was Dr. Suskind1s idea of December of '7 9 . I think that was w ishful thinking in that we would have liked very much.to have early reports of what was found. Q Under paragraph 3 of pages 1 and 2 of P la in tiffs1 Deposition Exhibit #62 it says, "Feedback S e lik o ff to Those Examined," i s n 't that right? A That's right. Q States that they have been receiving JAM ES MAY R E PO R TIN G SER VIC E l i: 1 letters from Dr. Seliko ff saying that within two weeks 2 each w ill receive a letter explaining the results of 3 his examination earlier in. the year. That's what was 4 stated there, is that right? 5 A That's right. 6 Q The Task Force then discussed various 7 possible actions and responses but agreed no action 8 should be taken in advance of receipt of letters. 9 That's also correct, is it not? 10 A Tha t 1s correct. 11 Q Tell me what was discussed as possible 12 actions and responses. 13 A I 'd have to refer to my notes I have 14 taken. I don't have them in front of me, so I c a n 't 15 really tell you what we talked about four years ago. 16 Q Hand you what's beenmarkedP l a i n t i f f s ' 17 Exhibit #64 (Monsanto identification # 2 3 6 2 4 9 ), ask you 18 to take a look at that. 19 P l a i n t if f s ' Exhibit # 64, this Is a four20 page document authored by F . J . Holzapfel, dated Novem 21 ber 19, 1979. Subject matter is Nitro Health Study 22 Task Force, Minutes of Meeting of 1 1 /1 6 /7 9 , to the 23 Task Force of which you appear to have a copy, right? 24 I 25 A That's correct. Q First paragraph on the fir s t page is JAMES MAY R E P O R T IN G SER VIC E 1 en title d , "Feedback-Selikoff to Those Examined,M is n 't 2 that correct? 3 A Correct. ' 4 Q Says, "D r . Seliko ff had sent letters 5 to those examined and Dr. Marion Moses was in Charleston 6 on 11/11 to discuss with those employees interested. 7 No news stories or TV coverage resulted. We have no 8 indication of employee interest or concern. Olin Dolin 9 w ill probe -- d isc r e e tly ." Is that what that s-tates, sir? 10 A That's correct. 11 Q And he is , what, head of -- 12 A Olin Dolin? 13 Q Right. 14 A I ' m not sure who Olin Dolin is . 15 know Owen. This may be a misprint. I f i t 's Owen Dolin 16 being referred to, he's Chief Chemist. 17 Q Chief Chemist there at Nitro at that time? 18 A Right. 19 Q On paragraph 2,having sa id ,"Education20 Steelworkers Heirachy," right? 21 A Right. 22 Q It says,"M essrs. Roussen and Booth 23 of Steelworkers with Dr. Parkinson (Steelworkers' con 24 sultant) scheduled to spend 12/20 with Dr. Suskind to 25 learn about epidemiology study methodology," I s n 't that JAMES MAY R E PO R TIN G S ER VIC E l 1 right? 2 A Correct. 3 Q "No indication of ulterior motive, A but in view of Roussen's egotism and b ia s , hope that 5 this w ill not result in giving him a basis for belittling 6 Suskind study when publish ed ," right? 7 A That's what it says. 8 Q Then on page 2 of P l a i n t i f f s ' Exhibit 9 64 under paragraph 3 , "Publication- Selikoff and Suskind 10 S t u d i e s r i g h t ? 11 A Right. 12 Q It states in the f ir s t paragraph, Y 13 "D r. Marion Moses is scheduled to appear before Congress 14 man Eckhardt's committee and has announced plans to 15 announce the results of the S e lik o ff study th en," right? 16 A Right. 17 Q "Mr. Pickard has contacted the committee 18 staff and learned that they are in no hurry to schedule 19 hearings on Agent Orange and d io x in s ," i s n 't that right? 20 A Correct. 21 Q And Mr. Pickard is who, sir? 22 A He's our liason in Washington. I'm 23 not sure exactly what his total role is there. 24 Q He's a lobbyist,i s n 't he? 25 A I would think that may be a correct title JAM ES MAY R E PO R TIN G S ER V IC E t for him. ment? Q A registered lobbyist v?ith the govern- A Yes, I believe so. I know he was a Monsanto employee who was headquartered in Washington. Q And it goes on to state that Pickard was to contact the committee s t a f f , i s n 't that correct? A I t says he has contacted the committee staff. Q And that's the st a ff of Congressman Eckhardt and other Congressmen, i s n 't that correct? A That's right. Q Then in the secondparagraph ofnum bered paragraph 3 , says , "M essrs.' McCarville/pickard w ill furnish a copy of the mortality study to the c o m m i t t e e i s n 't that right? A That's right. Q "Th is refers to a broader study to be completed shortly -- and this w il l be called to the attention of the committee s t a f f ," i s n 't that right? A That's right. Q It states in thethird paragraph of numbered paragraph 3 , "D r . Meyer reported that a recent check with Dr. Suskind's' s t a ff confirms that no report is anticipated before January," and I guess they are JA M E S MAY R E P O R TIN G SER V IC E l f ' y 1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 talking about the morbidity study, is that right? A I believe that's correct. We mads re- pea ted efforts to get that study. I think it indicates Dr. Suskind*s independence when .he did not yield to any pressure on our part when we tried to get him to make his findings public. MR. PRATT; Move to strike that state*ment as non-responsive. r Q (By Mr. Pratt) Number 4 says, "Suskind Feedback to Employees,n is that right? A Yes. Q One of the employees had written to Suskind for the details of his examination and had been refcised and was referred to his personal physician, is n 't that right? A That's right, Q Hand you what's been marked P l a i n t i f f s 1 Exhibit #65 (Monsanto identification # 8331 279), ask you to take a look at that, s ir . Plaintiffs* Exhibit #65, which is a two-page document authored by F . C. Meyer, dated November 2 1 , 1979, the subject being Suskind*s November 20th Meeting with Dr. Parkinson and Union Representatives L. R a t liff and Delaney (Local V . P . ) . You*re shown on the distribution as being in the Task Force, i s n 't that JA M ES MAY R E P O R T IN G SER VIC E lP l IV J {} 1 correct, sir? 2 A That's correct. 3 Q And the fir s t paragraphsays, "D r . 4 Suskind called to report b riefly the results of his 5 November 20 subject m eeting," i s n 't that correct? 6 A That's correct. 7 Q The next paragraph states, "The overall 8 meeting was friendly and frank in tone, although, no m 9 higher o ffic ia ls of the National Union showed u p ." 10 I s n 't that what that says? 11 A That's correct. 12 Q Paragraph entitled 1says, "No mention 13 was made of S e l ik o f f 's study, and Suskind did not feel 14 it appropriate to bring it u p ," i s n 't that right, sir? 15 A That's righ t. 16 Q Then he discusses theprotocol in para 17 graph numbered 2 as approved by the University of Cin 18 cinnati Medical School C lin ic al Review Committee, and 19 this was reviewed in depth by Dr. Parkinson and the 20 Union representatives, is that right, sir? 21 A That's rig h t. 22 Q And "Suskind showed that this was not 23 just a local study, bet the Nitro study related to other 24 world dioxin accidents, such as Vietnam and Seveso." 25 A That's correct. JA M ES MAY R E P O R T IN G S ER VIC E l Q "Ha indicated a well-controlled, ob jective study here could make a less well-controlled study proposed for the VA of questionable v a lu e ," is that correct? ' A That's correct. Q Then there is parenthesis that says, "Not in^the eyes of veteran groups," i s n 't that right? I 'A That!1s right. m Q Numbered paragraph 3 he stated he re viewed the procedures and types of individual examina tion results which had been completed and supplied to physicians designated by the participants. This in cluded early recommendations by followup (by 1phons where felt urgent), examination or treatment of condi tions whether related or not to any occupational association. That's stated in that paragraph, i s n 't that correct? A Correct. Q Paragraph 4 , "The Union representatives questioned whether they would get the results, and Sus- kind assured them that his agreement called for a l l in terested groups, government agencies, WHO, employees as well as Monsanto would have access to the published overall results of the study," i s n 't that correct? A That's correct. JAM ES MAY R E PO R TIN G S ER VIC E 1 2 3 ;4 5 6 7 8 * 9 10 U 12 13 14 15 l 17 18 19 20 V, 21 22 23 24 25 Q Of course, Monsanto' s already had information, have they not, sir? A No, I haven' t received any information of individual results, and I haven't seen' any published overall results of the study. As you pointed out, it wasn't published yet. Q Hasn't Monsanto seen preliminary reports -'A We seen tablulaticas of some of the data. We have not seen reports. Q W ell, haven't they seen preliminary reports, sir? A I'm not sure I know what you mean by preliminary report. Q Or rough drafts? A No, I haven't seen any rough drafts which precede publication. Q D on't they have copies of a l l the data that was generated in this study a l l the way from the medical data that they had control of from Nitro and from the data generated at the examinations a t Putnam County Medical Center? A Are you talking about individual results? Q I'm talking about raw data, A No, s ir , we have not seen the raw data. Q Would you be one that would see the raw JA M ES MAY R E PO R TIN G S ER V IC E data had it been disclosed? A That's entirely probable, Q Is it possible that It has been.viewed by persons from Monsanto and you not be Included in that group? A I would think that highly unlikely. Q Page 2, paragraph 5 , "The Union asked about mortality; da ta for chloracne cases not associated with the accident, for other 2 ,4 ,5 - T exposed persons and for non-exposed workers," That was said in that paragraph, right? A Right. Q "Suskind indicated these would be re ported in Monsanto's followup studies and p u blish ed ," is that correct? A That's right. Q And is that the study that comesafter the 121 people? A Yes. Q Do you have any ideawhere a copy of that study could be obtained? A Right off the top of ray head, no. MPk. PRATT: Off the record, (Whereupon discussion was had off the record.) JA M ES MAY R E P O R T IN G S ER VIC E 1 2 3 "4 5 6 7 8 * 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 - 22 23 . 24 25 Q (By Mr. Pratt) Then in the last para graph of page 2 of P l a i n t i f f s 1 Exh ibit 6 5 , "Suskind indicated his willingness to te stify , i f asked, before a Congressional committee (presumably E ckhardt's) on the results of his Nitro study, possibly to counter balance Dr. Moses proposed report of the Selikoff study," is n 't that correct, sir? A That's correct. Q Hand you what's been-marked P l a in t if f s 1 Exhibit #66 (Monsanto identificatio n # 8 3 2 3 4 4 1 ), ask you to take a look a t that, s i r . Exhibit #66, which consists of four pages, which is marked December 10, 197S, the Nitro Health Study Task Force, Minutes of Meeting of 1 2 /7 /7 9 , and you were present, I s n 't that correct, sir? A That's correct. Q On the second page, second paragraph, "D r . Suskind-Eckhardt Committee." A Yes Q "D r . Suskind had indicated to Dr. Meyer (on 11/21) a willingness to te stify before the Eckhardt Committee when it holds hearings on Agent Orange/diox ins next year." A * That1? what it says. - Q " B i l l McCarville had agreed to suggest JAM ES MAY R E P O R T IN G S ER V IC E X to the Committee sta ff that Dr. Suskind be invited to t e s t ify .11 I s n 't that what that says, sir? A I t does . Q Under 5 , "S e lik o ff Study-Visit by Dr. Moses to Charles to n .1' States, ."V is it uneventful, tto p u blicity , no questions from employees, no unrest," does it not, sir? A That*s what that paragraph says. Q And that document was authored by F .J . Holzapfel. Hand you w hat's been marked P l a i n t if f s 1 Exhibit # 72, s i r , (Monsanto identification # 232050), ask you to take a look at that. P l a i n t i f f s 1 Exhibit #72 consists of three pages, the f ir s t pege being a letter from Dan R. Bishop, Director of Environmental .Communica tions , to Mr. Don Dare of KSDK news in St. Louis, M issouri, dated February 8 , 1580. That's a letter to Mr. Dare, is it not, sir? A Yes. Q And in the- letter Mr.Bishop iscom plaining about a so-called documentary that was done that he had given information in , i s n 't that right? A That's right. Q Stating that somehow he hadbeen short- JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G SER VIC E li 1 r 3 J j 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ' changed, is n 't that correct? A I do n't see those words here. Q W ell, I mean, in other words, what he's saying is he d i d n 't feel it was a fair interview, right? A I do n't see him saying that either. Q W ell, i f y o u 'll look at the third para- graph, states, "The fact that you chose to ignore it completely in your so-called documentary -- puzzles me to say the l e a s t ." I s n 't that what it says? A It says he was puzzled, yes. Q Then on pages 2 and 3 of P la in t iffs ' Exhibit #72 is a memo from Dan R. Bishop to a number of people, dated February 13, 1980, the subject being KSDK/Agent Orange, and you're one of those recipients, are you not? A I am. Q And, apparently, it says in the fir st paragraph, "For your information, Don Dare of KSDK news called Tuesday in reponse to my letter of February 8 with the following comments. He said he was sorry I was disappointed with the documentary and that he felt it was fa ir -- very f a i r ." Is that what that states, sir? A That's right. Q Hand you what's been marked P la in t iffs ' Exhibit #73 (Monsanto identification # 232076). JA M E S MAY R E P O R TIN G SER VIC E l1 P l a i n t i f f s 1 Exhibit #73 is a memo from Dan R. Bishop, March 6, 1980, and i t ' s to a number of people, most of which are in the Task Force Commit tea, and you being a recipient of this memo, i s n 't that correct? 4 A That's correct. Q The fir s t paragraph states, "For your information, the attached w ill be of interest. By the way, this is the fir s t press conference to Australian veterans joining in the class action s u i t ." That's what that states, right, sir? A That's right. Q And h e 's referring to theAgent Orange class action s u it, is that right? A I presume that's what it meant. Q Then he e cates in paragraph 2 , " I n a related matter, you should know that Monsanto was invited and has graciously declined an invitation to defend our position on Agent Orange on the CBb Evening News," is n 't that correct, sir? A That's correct. Q Goes on to state, "Dow andHercules declined before us. I gave as our reason, 'Monsanto has nothing to g i n by stepping forward and being per ceived by your millions of viewers as the terrible JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G SER VIC E C 1 ' _` 1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 chemical company responsible for a l l those horrible a ilm en ts,1" is n ' t that correct, sir? A That' s correct. Q 1 hand you what' s been marked P l a in t iffs ' Exhibit #128 (Monsanto identification # 8 3 3 0 0 3 5 ), and ask you to take a Ink at that, s ir . This document is a memo to the file which you' re c c ' d on from F. C. Meyer, dated March 9 of 1979, the subject of which is Nitro- 2,4,5- T Studies, Dr. Raymond Suskind ' phone Discussions 3 / 7 / 7 9 , right? A That' s correct. Q First paragraph states, "Contact made with Dr. Suskind to determine his schedule of open dates and potential timing for conducting a Nitro Plant modical examination study on former Sodium T C P/2,4,5- T workers." That' s what it states in the f ir s t paragraph, right? A That's right. Q Second paragraph deals with his una v a ila b ilit y to do the study until late A p r il , early May, is n ' t that correct? A That's right. Q The third paragraph deals w ith the study protocol where h e ' s considering combination of a l l cases, both active and retired, of chloracne associated JAM ES MAY R E PO R TIN G SER VIC E 1? C 1 2 3 4 '5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16, 17 18 19 20 .. 21 . . `.2 2 23 24 25 with Sodium trichbrophenol and 2 ,4 ,5 - T , which includes group 1 (1949 accident-associated) and group 2 (post accident-associated cases) and comparing those with workers exposed to Sodium trichlorophenol and 2,4,5- T who did not get chloracne, is n 't that correct? "A That's correct. Q "A third group'for controls would be constructed from workers who had no known contact with Sodium trichlorophenol/2 , 4 ,5-T i f sufficie n t numbers with the required matching characteristics are a v a il a b l e .11 That's what it says, rig h t, sir? A Yes. Q It goes on to state in the third para graph, " I f not, he would like to consider whether controls from another local plant or even a Monsanto plant from another location could be provided." That's what that states, right? A That's right. Q Then Meyer says, "We are examining the microfilm tapes of the retrospective Nitro work history data to confirm these groups in order to meet the re quired medical study tim ing," is n 't that correct, sir? A Yeah, that' s work history data, yeah. Q Hand you w hat's been marked Plaintiffs 1 Exhibit #85 (Monsanto id entificatio n # 8 3 2 3 8 3 1 ), and ask JAM ES MAY R E P O R T IN G SER V IC E l you to look at that. P la in t iffs 1 Exhibit #35, which consists of two pages, is authored by R. M. Scott, who at the time was Plant Manager at N itro , i s n 't that righ t, sir? A That's right. Q Dated March 17. The subject is Nitro Health Study Task Force, Minutes of Meeting March 14, 1580, and it shows that you were present, is n 11 that correct? A Tha t* s correct, Q And under 1 it says, " Suskinc S ta tu s," does it not? A Yes. Q States, "A meeting among D ill Gsffey, Judy Zack and Dr. Suskind is set for March 31, 1580. Suskind has indicated that the data might be (no promise) ready for preliminary review ." Second paragraph says, " The fir st output from the Nitro mortality study (number 2) is being reviewed, i t covers deaths only on exposed versus nen-exposed individuals who worked hourly em ployment since' 1 5 5 5 Goes on to state, " The scope is 800 people and 150 deaths within a 100% trace." ThatTs what it states thus far in this paragraph, right, sir? A Right. JAM ES MAY R E PO R TIN G S ER V IC E l 1 2 3 4. . . . 5 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 ; 21 22 23 24 25 Q Goes on to say, "Indication s arc that tha mortality of exposed workers is O .K . compared to national averages." That's what that states, right? A Right, `' i - *. Q "The non-exposed group shows a slightly high cardiovascular incident rate compared to natio n"! averages. The study w il l eventually be compared to incident rates in the Kanawlia Valley, but this compari son is not presently re a d y ," and that's *>hat that states J right, sir? A Ri g h t . Q And chat's thestudy that we have been talking about, which is after the study that Sup- kind and Zack did that's in the Journal of. Occupation*"! Medicine, right? A Right. JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G S ER V IC E l Oiliereupon the following proceedings were had on June 2 8 , 1983. Q (By Mr. Pratt) Hand you what's been marked P la in t if f s ' Deposition Exhibit #139 (Monsanto identificatio n # 8326 129), ask you to take a look at that, sir. P la in t iffs ' Exhibit #139, cover letter appears to be a memo from Dan R. Bishop, dated larch 19, 1980, to Dr. C a llis , Dr. Gaffey, Mr. Iiolzanfel, Dr. McCarville, Dr. Meyer, Mr. Park, Mr. Scott, Dr. Tillman, Mr. Wander and Mr. W ilkins, is that correct, sir? A That's correct. Q And pages 2 through 14 appear to be Monsanto's o ffic ia l position on Agent Orange, i s n 't that correct? A position. W e ll, i t 's the fir s t draft of that Q F irst draft. A ll rig h t. Now, on page 15 is another cover letter by Dan R. Bishop, dated March 11, 1980, subject, Agent Orange Position, and it lists Dr. Carpenter, Dr. Spurrier and Messrs. Fischer, Ingenthron, McKee and Wander, with a copy to several other persons. A I might add that I was not included in JA M E S MAY R EPO R TIN G SER VIC E I t 1 that distribution* 2 Q You are on the o riginal. 3 A In the o riginal, but these were issued 4 on separate dates, March 19 and March 11. 5 Q W ell, what w e're getting a t , Dr. T i l l 6 man, is pages 16 through 26 , the fin a l draft of this 7 position paper. 8 (Whereupon discussion was had off the 9 record.) 10 Q (By Mr. Pratt) Are you able to tell 11 i f pages 16 through 26 is the fin al draft? 12 A I c a n 't state that from this. I have 13 no way of telling which Is the fin a l draft. Neither 14 of those two documents are dated as to when they are 15 published, and the one, pages 16 through 26 , is' 16 attached to a letter with a date preceding the earlier 17 one. 18 Q I think i f you look at the bottom of 19 page 2 6 , you see a date March 3 , 1980. 20 A I see that, 21 Q You look at page 12, you see, "Revised 22 March 17, 1 9 8 0 ." 23 A Yes. 24 Q So, I take i t , the document which Is 25 2 through 14 would be the revised draft, would you agree ' l JA M ES MAY R E P O R T IN G SER VIC E V 1 w ith that, based on the dates, anyvjay? 2 A Yes, based on those dates I would. 3 Q - Let me ask you, where was this docu 4 ment disseminated? 5 A I think the only thing X can tell you 6 is what it shows on the memo attached to it , to the 7 people that are named on there. You have already nac^cl 8 most of them. There's also Mr. Berendt, Hr. McKee, 9 Mr. Nolan and Mr. Throdahl named here. 10 Q If y o u 'll look at page 5 of P la intiffs* 11 E xhibit 139, second paragraph of the text of the memo 12 from Mr. Bishop says, "We intend to make multi-phased 13 internal distribution of this information, followed by 14 selected external distribution, in the.next few w e e k s ." 15 What is multi-phased internal distribution? 16 A That's,apparently, a PR term w ith which 17 I'm not familiar and can 't answer you. 18 Q You don't know who w ithin the company 19 got it , then, other than what's shewn -- 20 A Only thing I can tell you is w hat's /21 on the page. There are a few additional names on this n memo I didn* t read off the previous memo. i 23 Q What about external d is trib u tio n ? 24 A Again, that's PR function w ith which 25 I have no involvement, and I have no idea what to tell --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- ------- r---------------------- 1-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- JA M ES MAY R E P O R TIN G SER VIC E 1 you about that. 2 Q Apparently, if y o u 'll look a t page 5 3 and pages 13 and 14, what the position paper is rely * 4 ing upon, at least as to page 5 , are five so-called 5 scientific studies, is n 't that correct, and you sea 6 those -- 7 A Those studies are cited by the numbers 8 in the parentheses and referred to in the reference? 9 on page 13 and into page 14. 10 Q Those( documents were written by, num n ber ' . 1 , Lamm; number 2, Mantel; number 3 , Newton; 12 number 4 , A . H. Smith; 5 , S. L. Wagner and others, right? 13 A Tha t 1s c orre c t . 14 Q Then other studies .that this position 15 paper relies upon or other incidents would be the 16 Seveso one which is talkedabout onpages 7 and 8 , right? 17 A - R ig h t. 18 Q And N itro , which is found on pages 8 19 through 12 of P la in t iffs ' Exh ibit 139? 20 A Yes. -V21 Q And what isdiscussed on pages 8 through 22 12 is the mortality study by Suskind and Zack, i s n 't 23 that co m e t, sir? A That's men t im e d as part of that. Q And also Suskind*s Nitro epidemiological JAM ES MAY R E P O R T IN G SER V IC E l / 'Y 1 study which is n o t'in print yet, i s n 't that correct? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Those are the sole documents with the 4 exception, i f you111 look on page 14, of the articles 5 contained in number 6 through 13, right? 6 A I d o n 't know what your question is . 7 Q W e ll, I say, the five documents diet 8 we talked about plus the discussion of the* Seveso 9 incident and the two studies of Suskind and Zaek, Sus- * 10 kind plus articles that are contained in articles 6 11 through 13 are what are relied upon f or this pos ition' 12 paper, is that right? 13 A Those are the ones that are cited here 14 Q Of course, the world literature on 15 dioxin is probably how many documents? 16 A Oh, I ' d have to say there are probably 17 more than 4 0 ,0 0 0 of those by new. IS Q I hand you what's been marked Plain 17 t i f f s 1 Deposition E xhibit #87 (Monsanto identification 20 #8323866), s ir . 21 P l a i n t i f f s 1 E xh ibit # 8 7 , s ir , is a 22 document authored by R. M. Scott and dated A pril 21, 23 1980, the subject of which is Nitro Health Study Task 24 Force, Minutes of Meeting of April 18, 1980, is n 't 25 that correct? JA M ES MAY R E P O R T IN G SER V IC E l 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 V .2 ; 22 23 24 25 A That's correct. Q And the Task Force is shown there, and you're one of the members of the Task Force, right? A Right. Q Under 1, "Suskind S t a t u s s t a t e r , "Judy Zack and Dr. Gaffej* met v/ith Dr. Suskind anti Dr, Blair Smith in Cincinnati on March 31 , I960 , to e?tph2i:h the status of the Nitro Health S tu d y ," is that correct? A Correct. Q "Statu? reportindicates that Dr. Suskind is still in the- 'computer p h a s e ,' working with the c>tn input," is that right? A That's right. Q Goes on to say in thatparagraph, "E r . Suskind indicated that he expected data input to be com plete in about a month and then the analysis efforts coulc b e g in ," is that right? A That's right. Q Second paragraph of that number 1 itc-a. says, "The group discussed methods to consider for improv ing the completion timing. Dr. Callis and Fred Holzapfel agree to review further with Mr. Throdahl seeking a s s is tance (done 4 / 1 8 / 8 0 ) . " rDo you recall, what was said about improving completion timing, how they_were going to do it? A No. I can only tell you what th:i minutes JA M ES MAY R E P O R T IN G SER VIC E read here as to what went on. Q Third paragraph war* an invitation from Suskind to the new health center opening on May 9 of 1980, is n 't that correct? - '* * A That's correct. Q Then the second item, which is cn the bottom of page 1 of Exhibit 7 ahc' the top of page 2, is delineated, "Monsanto Study," and, I take ir , chat would be the sec one mor ta lity s tudy, i:; thr; t c orr'-c c? A That's what's referred to in the first sentence and others. Q Vas Sue kind in that study in any way, shape or form that you knexv of: A I'm not sure what kind of work hi may have done with i t . I knov: we used him as a consultant to be sure of correctness of the data being put into a study of that sort, correctness of interpretation. Q Whether he did any actual work or con sulting on that study -- A I c a n 't speak to that point. Q Hand you w h a t's been marked Plaintiffs.' Deposition Exhibit #89 (Monsanto identification # 8323376), and ask you to look at that, s i r . P laintiffs' Deposition Exhibit #89, sir, is a four-page document authored by R. M. Scott, dated JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G SER VIC E li May 19, 19S0, subject is Nitro Health Study Tasi; l'orca-, Minutes of Meeting of Msy 16, 1930, isn*t that right? A The t i- j. * 11w Q And those present were the person^:! invo 1vad with the Task Force, inc 1uding your^elf, rigI!tV A Right. Q And on the bottom of page 1, again, the fur; kind Statue, item 2, it discussed, right? A ic s . Q Again, the gist of that paragraph i<trying *to figure ways to speed up bus*kind 1r results, is,r.! t that correct? A Thr-t's right. Q Co page 2 of pia in tiffs 1 Libit 9, item '3, "Monsanto Study," states, "Dr. Gaffey indicated that Judy 2ack had completed a second pass at the computer output for the-Nitro mortality related to a l l employees at Nitro since 1 9 5 5 ." That?s what that states, right? A That's right. Q Last sentence says, "Completion is ex pected within a few weeks, but Dr. Gaffey felt that this would have to gc through Dr. Suskind before p ublicatio n," is n 't that correct? A Tha t 1g c orre c t . Q So, apparently, on that second mortality JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G SER VIC E study he did have some involvement in the thing. A As I mentioned, D r . Sunhind has osen a prime consultant for matter.-; of thin sort to be -urc of the scientific correctness of what's w ritten. Q A ll right. Ii^nd you what's been marked P la in t if f s ' Exhibit '*140 (Monsanto identification #S 324030 ), ask you to tako a 1ook s t the t . This i*? a document, P l a i n t i f f s 1 Exhibit 140, is a document authored by you to " red Hol-aufol, d=ted 6 /5 /8 0 , is n 't that correct, sir? A That's correct. Q And it discusses in general the r bringing in of Dr. Parkinson who is a consultant to the United Steelworkers Union, bringing him in to have sore relationship with this Suskind morbidity study, i s n 't than correct? A To be present when that study was re ported, yes. Q Of course, that's moot because it hasn't been reported, is n 't that right? A No, that's not entirely correct. Dr. Suskind did make a presentation to the employees at the Nitro Plant summarizing his findings. Dr. Parkinson was invited to attend, but was unable to be there. Q O .K . l.'as that proceeding recorded? JAMES MAY R E PO R TIN G SER VIC E 1 A Yes, it was videotaped . 2 MR. FRATT: Off the record. 3 (Whereupon discussion was had off the 4 record,' .. 5 Q (By Mr. Fratt) Ksnc you w het's bc.cn marked P l a i n t if f s ' Exhibit #141 (Monsanto identification 7 # 8324 046), and ask you to take a look at that, s ir . 8 P l a in t if f s 1 Exhibit '-141 is a mc-.c from 9 F. J . Holzapfel to F,,. M. Scott with yourself receiving a 10 copy, i s n 't that correct? 11 A. That's correct. 12 Q The fir s t paragraph deals with the 13 fact that the company's going to invite' Dr. Parkinson 14 to attend when Dr. Sus kind reviews the results of th<- 15 study to tha company, is that correct? l A That's correct. 17 Q Hand you what's been marked P l a i n t i f f s 1 18 Exhibit #92 (Monsanto identification # 2 3 2 1 3 9 ), ask you to 19 20 .121 22 take a look at that. This is a memo from Dan R. Bishop to the Nitro Health Study Task Force, dated July 10, 1300, is that correct? 23 A That's correct. 24 Q And it has to do with hearings that were i' ^ 25 held on Agent Orange, right? JAM ES MAY R E P O R TIN G SER VIC E 1 A - Yes, that's correct. 2 Q First paragraph states, "For your in 3 forma tinn, on Tuesday, July 22 the te d ic a l F a c ilities and Benefits Subcommittee of the House Veterans Committee 5 w ill hold hearings on Agent Orange." A That's what it says. 7 Q Second paragraph says, " I t 's believed 8 that Dr. Selikoff w ill testify ,alo ng with others sym 9 pathetic to the veterans, in what promises to be a 10 witch-hunt staged for the news m edia," is that correct? 11 A That's correct. 12 Q "No one from industry has been invited 13 to t e s t if y ." That's also stated there, right? 14 A That's also stated. 15 Q The lasc paragraph says, "ABC w ill 16 have a 2 0 /2 0 crew there and w ill probably a ir something 17 on July 24 . I'm planning to attend the hearings as a 18 specator," is that correct? 19 A That's correct. 20 Q Hand you what's beenmarked P la in t iffs ' 21 Exhibit #93 (Monsanto identificatio n # 2 3 2 1 4 8 ), ask you 22 to look at that. 23 A O .K . 24 Q This document, E xhibit # 9 3 , is authored 25 by Dan R. Bishop, dated July 25 , 1980, subject being JA M ES MAY R E P O R T IN G SER VIC E l House Agent Orange Hearing, and i t 's to members of the Nitro Health Study Task Force, is that correct? A That's correct. Q The f ir s t paragraph states, ,!For your information, the hearings of the House Veterans Committee were predictable and d u l l . Monsanto was not mentioned, but Dow caught quite a b it of f l a k ,,: is that correct,sir? A Tliat's correct. Q Next paragraph is , "D r . Sus kind did not testify . He pulled out at the last minute, apparent ly realizing what he was about to get involved in. Dr. Epstein, in his usual rapid-fire style, indicted the phenoxy herbicides and dioxin -- calling TCDD the'most potent synthetic carcinogen known to man1 and a powerful teratogen and mutagen which causes 'multi-system1 chronic effe c ts." Is that what that says? A . Yes. Q Next paragraph goes on to say, "D rs . Stellman, a husband and wife team from New York, were introduced as epidem iological experts and proceeded to collaborate Epstein 's chargs." Is that what it says? A That's what it says, Q Then it goes on to say in the next para graph, "Congressman Daschle, Democrat, South Dakota, see attached news release, went a fter Dow, as did Epstein, JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G SER VIC E < i a 1t 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 J 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 * 1 They both said Dow had done a study in '77-'78 of the wives of 300 2 ,4 ,5 - T workers and have never published the results - - charging a 'c o v e r u p .'" That's what that says, right? A That's what that says. Q The next paragraph states, "The hearings wound up with a parade of Vietnam veterans taking turns describing the horrors that have befallen them and their families since being exposed to Agent Orange," right? A Right. Q The last paragraph states, "Additional hearings w ill be scheduled. There was nothing on 2 0 /20 last n ig h t." That's what that says, is n 't that right? A Yes. Q Hand you what's been marked P l a in t if f s ' Deposition Exhibit #94 (Monsanto identification #8324055), ask you to look at that, sir.- Doctor, Plaintiffs' Exhibit #94 is a four-page document, aga in , authored by R. M. Scott, dated August 4 , 1980, subject being Nitro Health Study Task Force, Minutes of Meeting August 1, 1980, and i t 's to the Task Force, including yourself, is that correct? A That's correct. Q And the f ir s t item of business is Mr. Hdlzapfel retired and Call is,' Dr. C a l l is , assumed the JA M E S MAY R E P O R TIN G S ER V IC E l 3 1 chairmanship of the Nitro Health Study Task Force, is 'S 2 that, correct? 3 A That's correct. 4 Q And Mr. Gallcway was appointed to re 5 place Scott as the Nitro representative, i s n 't that right7 6 A That's right. 7 Q Again, there's made mention of the 8 Suskind Status in this report, on the epidemiological 9 study, right? 10 A Right. 11 Q Morbidity? 12. A Right. 13 Q On page 2 of P la in t iffs ' Exhibit #54, 14 reference is made to the Zack Study where Gaffey in d i 15 cates that the f in a l report is being written and should 16 be ready w ithin two weeks, and Dan Bishop proposed to 17 have.a press release ready by September 1 of 1980, is 18 that correct? 19 A That's correct. 20 Q And was a press release given on that 21 study? 22 To the very best of my recollection, 23 it w a s . 24 Q Hand you what's been marked P la in t iffs ' 25 E xh ibit ??142 (Mnsa n t identificatio n # 2348 51), consisting JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G SER VIC E 1 of two pages, ask you to take a look at that, 2 A O.K. 3 Q P l a i n t if f s 1 exhibit #142 is a two-page 4 document which is entitled Press Query, and i t 's dated 5 9/24/80, right? 6 A Sorry, I ca n 't see a date. I t 's hard 7 to read. The date is partially obscured there. 8 Q And the person making the query was 9 from a program called Speak Up America and a Marie 10 Suzanne, is that correct? n A That's what I wouldgather what it 12 says next to"Reporter and M edia." 13 Q And the question was from NBC, right? 14 A I see a reference to NBC entertain 15 ment program but 1 do n't see where it says the question 16 came from NBC. 17 Q . The question is , "NECentertainment 18 program is planning a segment on Agent Orange in next 19 two to three weeks and would like to inteview a Monsanto 20 spokesman or get a statement from us for use on a i r . " 21 A Tliat's what I see. 22 Q And the answer was that you declined 23 to provide spokesman for interview, stating that it would 24 be inappropriate since the situation is in litig a tio n , 25 and you offered to read an approved statement for use JA M ES MAY R E P O R TIN G SER VIC E and it was accepted and the statement was attached, right? A Right. Q And this would be the subject matter on page 2 of F l a i n t if f s 1 Exhibit #142, i s n 't that correct? A That's correct. Q Now, lot me ask you th is, of the people that are on this committee, which ones, including your s e lf, are experts on the literature concerning dioxin? A I ca n 't tell you who's an expert on what. I can only speak to what I knew myself. Q A ll right. Do youconsider yourself expert on the literature of dioxin? A I'm afraid I 'd have to ask you to de fine "expert" for me. Q W ell, have youreviewed the world llterature? A A ll of it , no. I haven't read every article ever written on dioxin . I very seriously doubt that very many people have. There's too much of it . Q W ell, do you consider yourself what we would say is , you knew, a man of expertise concerning this literature? A If you're asking me whether or not I can understand it when I read i t , the answer is yes. Q Now, you appeared on several television JA M ES MAY R E P O R TIN G S ER V IC E l 1 and radio media events, right? 2 A As a spokesman for Monsanto, yes. 3 Q And you have reiterated to the public .4 that the only thing the literature shows that dioxin w ill 5 do is cause chloracne, i s n 't that correct? 6 A As a long-term health e f f e c t , yes, and 7 that's based on a considerable volume of literature. 8 Q Would you tell me what literature 9 supports that position? 10 A I think one of the most recent is the n A1& Council on Scientific A ffairs which summarizes the 12 situation very well and made that statement. I t also 13 called for additional study to identify any additional 14 effects which are presently unknown. 15 Q O .K . And that study came out when, sir? 16 A I'm not sure of the date. I t would 17 have been probably within the last year or so. I don't 18 have a copy before me, so I do n't know exactly what date 19 It carries. 20 Q Can you give me some other articles -21 that substantiate that position. 22 A I'm not carrying a bibliography in my 23 head. I can go back to my file s and give you any number 24 of references, if that's what you'd like me to do. 25 Q W ell, you know, as a man w ho's putting JAM ES MAY R E P O R TIN G SER VIC E l > J * J 1 2 3 ` A5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 this forth to the public, I would think that you might have at your fingertips additional a r t ic l e s , you know. A I would have the a r t ic l e s , that's correct. As I sa id , X have not committed the authors to memory. I concern myself more with the content of the article and what scientific information it presents, not who wrote i t . Q W ell, you would consider the Suskind- Zack mortality table authoritative for that position, that a ll it w ill cause is chloracne? A I ' d say it supports our position on that subject, yes. Q And w e1re talking also about the AMA article, right? A Yes, I would consider that authoritative. Q Anything else you can think of? A There1s a rather good review of the subject based on many sc ien tific articles in C .E .N . News, I believe that's Chemical Engineering News, and that was a June, 1983, a r t ic le . I'm not sure of the exact date. I t may have been June 6 or early June of 1983. Q is n 't it? Of course, that's an industry publication, A Sure, but it carries fact. MR. PRATT; O ff the record. JAM ES MAY R E P O R T IN G SER V IC E ls 3 1 (Whereupon discussion was had off the 2 record.) 3 Q (By Mr. Pratt) Can you think of any 4 other articles that are authoritative to that position? 5 A As I said, I could go back to my files 6 and pull out any number of such articles and reiterate, 7 but I concern myself with the content of the a r t ic le , 8 what information it conveys to me, 9 Q Now, going back to the 1953 article or 10 study by Suskind, are you familiar with that study? 11 A I'm aware that it was done. I have 12 information on it , but not in front of me here. 13 Q Those 37 people are the basis -- Are 14 those 37 people that were studied the basis for Monsanto 15 saying that no long-term health effects from dioxin is 16 evident other than chloracne? 17 A. They are only a part of that basis. 18 Q What else is the basis? 19 A Additional studies that have been re 20 ported. For example, Seveso incident, 21 Q O .K . 22 A And that h asn 't been as long as ours, 23 but there's new seven years and no long-term health 24 effects have been identified to this period of time. 25 We are waiting to hear from Dr. S u s k in d t h ir d - y e a r study. JAMES MAY R E PO R TIN G SER VIC E Q you know, That would be number 3 , Seveso and, A Oh, yes, O.K. That's one, certainly one of the best opportunities to look at a volume of people. Some 3 7 ,0 0 0 people involved in Seveso. Q And would the mortality table, study by Suskind and Zack, be also -- A " That would certainly help to substantiate that position. Q Anything else? asking? A Specific a r t ic le s , is that what you*re Q Yes. A As I said, I 'd have to go back to ray file s and see what's there. I do not carry a bibliography in my mind. Q. But basically , then, Monsanto's position is , of course, based on the 1953 study of the 37 or 38 individuals, based on the literature on Seveso, based on the mortality table study of Suskind and Zack, Mon- santo has concluded that the only long-term effects of dioxin is chloracne, right? A That's part of what led us tothat position, yes. There is additional literature in rather large volume that would also substantiate that position. JAM ES MAY R E P O R TIN G SER VIC E r j J J' i 1 2' 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 U. 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q W o u ld i t be f a i r t o s a y t h e r e 's s u b s t a n t la l lit e r a t u r e on o th e r e x p lo s io n s and o th e r e x p o s u re s th a t d if f e r w ith th a t o p in io n ? A T h e re h a ve b ee n some s u b s ta n tia te d s u g g e s tio n s o f o th e r h e a lth e f f e c t s , b u t when th o se s tu d ie s w e re s u b m itte d to c r i t i c a l re v ie w , d e fe c ts in th e s tu d y fo rm a t, th e p o p u la tio n s e le c te d , th e c o n tr o l g ro u p s e le c te d , w ere fo u n d ; a n d , th e r e fo r e , th e s tu d y c o u ld n o t be c o n s id e re d as b e in g c o n c lu s iv e . Q C a n y o u t a l l me w h a t t h o s e s t u d i e s w e r e ? A W e ll, th e ir s one in p a r t ic u la r by W ard t h a t s u g g e s te d im m u n o lo g ic a l d e fe c t, a n d W ard has s a id h im s e lf th e s tu d y was fla w e d in th a t h is c o n tr o l g ro u p was n o t p ro p e rly s e le c te d . Q T h a t's th e f e l lo w t h a t d id th e im m un e lo g ic a l w o rk on C o a lite ? A I b e lie v e t h a t 's w here i t was d o n e , y e s . Q W h ic h was r e c e n t ly in th e n e w s , r ig h t ? A I t c e rta in ly w as. Q A n y th in g e ls e , a n y o th e r a r t ic le s th a t you sa y th e se s tu d ie s a re in v a lid ? A A g ^ in , I 'd have to go h a ck to my lit e r a t u r e and p u ll th o se o u t. I'm n o t s u re J u s t w h a t e v e ry one o f th o se is . I t ' s a r a th e r la rg e f o ld e r and i t ' s n o t s o m e th in g yo u ca n c o m m it to m em ory r i g h t o f f th e JAM ES MAY R E P O R T IN G SER VIC E lt 11 1 top of jour head. 2 Q fend you w h at's been marked P la in t iffs ' 3 Exhibit #143 (Monsanto id entificatio n # 2 3 4 9 0 5 ), ask ycu 4 to take a look at that. 5 This Exhibit #143, pages 2 through 9, 6 are radio and television appearance by yourself, is n 't 7 that correct? 8 A That's correct. I might add that page 9 6 is illegible and I c a n 't be sure what it says. 10 Q And what you're saying generally in 11 these appearances, you're talking about the Suskind 12 and Zack mortality study, are you not? 13 A The total plant mortality study, yes. 14 That was the second of tv?o studies of mortality. 15 Q That would have been the one after 16 the one in J .O .M .? 17 A Yes. 18 Q That would have been the one with 950 19 subjects in it? 20 A I 'm not sure precisely what the total 21 number is off the top of my head, but I know it reports 22 on 58 deaths. 23 Q The second study, the one that I don't 24 have a copy of at the present time, is the one w ith 58 25 dead ex-employees? JA M ES MAY R E PO R TIN G SER V IC E v---- zT i' ) 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Right. Q How many live employees were the subject of that mortality table study? A There*s no such thing as a live person in a mortality study. Q In other words, what was studied was '58 deaths, right? A Right. What were the causes of death, how do they relate to what v;ould be expected in terms of numbers and causes. Q And .that' s from 1955 1t il when? A Up to the cutoff date of that study, which would have been when i t ' s done, and I*m not sure of what that date is because I don' t have a copy of the study before me, but i t , obviously, would have been before October of 1980 when a l l of this was reported. Q for that study? You know anything about the protocol A tell yn that. I ' d have to look a t the study again to Q That was the one done by Gaffey, I guess? A W ell, Zack works for Dr, Gaffey and anything that went out of his department w o u ld certainly have to have his approval and review. Q And could you just summarise what the JA M ES MAY R E P O R T IN G SER VIC E Lt 1 1* T findings that you gave to the news media presented and N1 2 what the findings were of that study. S 3 A The causes of death for a l l persons 4 who have been employed at the Monsanto plant from 1955 5 until the cutoff date of the study were reviewed. They 6 were related to the causes of death and the numbers. 7 This was compared to a standard population which would 8 give you statistic? telling you hew many people you 9 would have expected to die out of a population that 10 size and what causes of death you would have expected 11 to see. S t a t is t ic a lly these numbers are analyzed one 12 against the other and a determination is made as to 13 whether or not there is significance in any differences 14 seen. This study reported that there were no significant 15 differences in either the number of deaths experienced 16 or in the causes of those deaths. 17 Q 18 ferred to? 19 A And what causes were sp ecifically reI would have to look at the study to 20 answer that question. I do not have it before me. 21 Q You state here, related to cancer, 22 nervous system, circulatory system, respiratory system 23 or the digestive system. 24 A Th at's righ t. We d id n 't see any excess 25 deaths in that area. That doesn't tell me what the causes JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G SER VIC E 1 of death were. (Whereupon a short recess was taken, a fter which the following proceedings were held.) Q (By Mr. Pratt) Hand you what's beau marked P l a i n t if f s ' Exhibit # 144 (Monsanto identification # 2 3 2 2 0 2 ), and ask you to take a Ink at that, s ir . P l a i n t i f f s 1 Exhibit #144 is authored by William R. Gaffey and i t 's to G. Roush, J r ,, dated February 6 , 1981, and the subject matter is Dr. Suskind and Nitro and Dr. Moses, and you're a person who would have gotten a copy of this, right? A Right. Q And it reiterates a telphone conver sation between Gaffey and Dr. Suskinc, is n 't that correct? A That's right. Q - Concerning Marion Moses* preliminary findings on the Mt. Sinai Nitro Study, right? A I do n 't see any mention of Mt. Sin a i, nor do I see the name Marion. I see a Dr. Moses. Q You know Dr. Moses, don't you? A . Personally? Q Yes. A No, we have notmet. Q You know what Dr. Moses* fir s t name ic? JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G SER VIC E 1 2 3 A'V - - 5. 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A The Dr. Moses at Mt. S in a i, who is at Mt. S in a i, is Marion. I presume that's what he means, but he doesn' t say so in that document. Q First two paragraphs state, " I talked on the 'phone with Dr. Suskind about Dr. Hoses' upcoming dog and pony show at Nitro. He says that we are overreacting and that this is the same presentation which he heard her give (a) in Rome last October and (b) at a VA meeting yesterday. He talked with her about these preliminary fin ding s." That' s what' s stated in the first paragraph, right? A Right. Q The second paragraph he tells Gaffey that s h e 'l l report, (a) that chloracne s t i l l exists in some men; (b) that there is an excess of triglycerides which is correlated with level of previous exposure. She determined levels of exposure by asking the men at the time they were examined. She has no information (says Suskind) on duration or recency of exposure. Paragraph goes on to say that Suskind says the elevated triglycerides are no news because they turned up in the Seveso incident and also occurred with exposure to o th er substances, such as PCB' s and penta. Is that what it says? A That's what it says. Q Hand you what's been marked P la in t iffs' JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G SERVICE! v* E xhibit #145 (Monsanto identification # 832 4 3 1 1 ). (Whereupon discussion was had off t'oe record.) Q (By Mr. Pratt) Let me hand you in addition to the previous document, P la in t iffs* Exhibit #146 (Monsanto identification # 2 3 2 2 3 5 ), Exh ibit #147 (Monsanto identification ?>23 2 2 3 6 ), E xhibit #149 (Mon santo identification #8326531) and E xhibit #151 (Mon- san to identification # 232305). Why don*t you take a look at those. Pia in t if f s 1 Exhibits- 145, 146, 147, 149, 151 deal generally with the National Institute for Occupational Safety a nd Healtfcfe desire to get certain records from Monsanto, i s n 't that correct? A That's correct. Q And, s p e c ific a lly , the person requesting them was a Patricia A. Honchar, Fh. D . of NIOSH in Cin cinnati, is that correct? A I'm not sure whore s h e 's from, but, yes, that's her name. Q What documents was she requesting, sir? A I think those are the ones that are mentioned in the communications: Medical records, work histories, production records. Q And what was the purpose they gave for JAMES MAY R E PO R TIN G S ER V IC E 1 requesting those documents? 2 A W ell, I ' d have to go back through all 3 these to be sure I could tell you that. 4 Q Was it to estab lish an industry-wide 5 registry on 2,4,5-/T workers? 6 A An industry-wide registry of workers 7 exposed to dioxin isomer contaminated m aterials. 8 Q And do you have any knowledge as to 9 whether or not Dr. Honchar did in fact get the documents 10 that she requested? 11 A I ' m not sure what the fin a l outcome 12 of that was since I wasn' t personally involved in doing 13 anything with i t . I would expect i f the agreement was 14 reached, that those records were made available so the 15 information necesary could be developed. 16 Q O .K . Now, Dr. Moses .t e s tifie d in 17 the Veterans Administration Advisory Committee on health18 related effects of herbicides, i s n 't that correct? 19 A I d o n 't know. I d o n 't see anything in 20 front of me to say so and I w a sn 't there. 21 Q Let me hand you E x h ib it #148 (Monsanto 22 identification # 2 3 2 2 4 6 ), s ir . a23 P l a i n t if f s ' E x h ib it #148 has cover 24 letter from Dan R. Bishop to the members of the Nitro 25 Health Study Task Force, dated A p ril 2 0 , 1981, is n 't that * l JAM ES MAY R E PO R TIN G S ER V IC E \ correct? A That's correct. Q I t says in the f ir s t paragraph, "Enclosed are exerpts from the proceedings of the VA's Advisory Committee on Health-Related Effects of Iferbi- cides (seventh meeting February 4 , 1981) plus the agenda for the next meeting scheduled for Kay 5 . " I s n 't that what it says in the fir s t one? A That's correct. Q I t also states in the second paragraph, " I have included a l l of Dr. Marlon Moses1 testimony which covers her 'fin d in g s ' to date of the Nitro Health Study," is n 't that right? A That's right. Q Then pages 2 through 22 set forth her testimony, is n 't that right? A. I read that more as a presentation than testimony under oath. Q At the bottom of page 6 and at the top of page 7 she states, "These are Monsanto Chemical Com pany workers in N itro , West V ir g in ia . And we have also studied another group of workers involved in the manu facture of 2,4,5- T and 2,4-D, and these are Vertac i I Chemical Company workers in Jacksonville, Arkansas." I s n 't that what it says? JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G S ER V IC E 1 1 2 3 * *4 5' 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 * .2 1 - ; 22 23 24 25 A That's what it says. Q Then a t the bottom of page 11 and then page 12 down to line 9 it states, "S o , this is just to sort of set the scene because I am going to show you some data now in which we looked at -- I 'm just going to give you the biochemist, the liver function tests and the iipids because this is something everybody is interested in. Cholesterol or triglycerides we knew have been reported to be abnornal. Liver function tests are extraordinarily important, and I'm going to show you some frequencies of abnormalities based on these groups and based on whether or not they ever had chloracne." That's what that area of testimony says, right? A Right. Q Then on page 17 of P l a in t if f s ' Exhibit #148, line 5 states, "O .K . What this represents here is that 71 people.of the 226 that we saw had current evidence of chloracne. Half of the people that we saw had chloracne currently or had had it at some time in the past. Now, this directly answers the gentleman's question in the back. Of the people that we saw, h alf of them had had their chloracne more than 20 years. This is based on asking them how long they had had i t . So it is very p ersistent." Then skipping down to line 18, " I put cholesterol on here not because we found an increased prevalance of abnormalI 1- 1 J A M E S M A Y R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E i I 1 2 -r 3 1 `w 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 1 17 18 19 20 21 . 22 23 24 25 cholesterol, but because people are going to want to know what we found. That's the only reason it is on here, SGPT and SGOT and GG'T are a l l liver function tests and are very, very important in this. They are here be cause we did find an increase prevalance^of abnormalities. n That's what that testimony says on page 17, righ t, sir? *A Yes. Q On page 19 of P l a in t if f s ' Exhibit #148 a t the top she states, "For triglycerides, you w il l see that related to exposure, there was an increased preva lence of abnorm alities. The same it goes for SGPT, SGOT and much, much more clearly in the heavy exposure group with GGT. I emphasize, these are abnormals." That's what that says, is n 't it, sir? A That's what It says, Q On page 20 of P l a in t if f s 'Exh ibit # 148, line 14, she states, "I n terms of chloracne, the SGOT and the GGT, which are both liver function tests, were shown to be significantly higher in the people who had chloracne as opposed to the people that d i d n 't . The triglycerides were found to be sig n ific a n tly higher only in relationship chloracne but not in relationship to exposure." And that's what that says, is n 't it? A Yes, it does. Q Hand you what's beenmarked P l a i n t if f s ' JAM ES MAY R E PO R TIN G S ER VIC E o J 1 2 3 4 i*. ** 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 * r? 21 :*22 '' l ^ A : 23 24 25 E xhibit #150 (Monsanto identification # 2322 73), ask you to take a look at that. P l a i n t if f s 1 Exhibit #150 is a two- page document by William R. Gaffey, dated A p ril 2 7 , i 1981. The subject is Dr. Moses1 progress import on the Selik o ff Study, and you received a copy of that, is n ' t that correct, sir? A That' s correct, Q And, apparently, i t ! s herreport to a group of management and Union representatives at N itro , right? A I t ' s a report of that. Q O.IC, And a synopsis of that is generally what was found in her testimony before the VA, right? A They would appear to be sim ilar. Q The five items that Guffeyreiterates i s , ?,1, Chloracne versus severity of exposure. Those w ith heavy exposure had more chloracne. 2 , Chloracne versus hire date. Those hired before 1950 had more chloracne than those hired later. 3 , Total cholesterol. No association with exposure or chloracne. 4 , SGPT and GGT. Statistically significant association .with chlor acne. 5, Triglycerides. Statistically significant association w ith chloracne.11 That' s what she reported to JA M ES MAY R E P O R TIN G SER VIC E 1 Monsato and the Union representatives, right? 2 A That's Dr. Gaffey's report of what 3 she reported. 4 Q That Gaffey's report of what she 5 reported? 6 A Right. 7 Q You know whether or not the group 8 that she saw or that Mt. Sinai saw, group of people 9 were included in the same group that Dr. Suskind saw? 10 A She's never provided me with a lis t n of people she saw, so I c a n 't speak to that point. 12 Q Hand you what's been marked P la in tiffs* 13 Exhibit #152 (Mnss nt0 identification 71=232333). u This is a document, P la in t iffs ' Exhibit 15 #152, is a document from Dan R. Bishop, dated September 1 24 , 1981, subject being Agent Orange, and i t 's to the 17 Nitro Health Study Thsk Force, is it not? 18 A Correct. 19 Q And in there it states that the Wall 20 Street Journal reported to the Secretary of Health and 21 Human Services Schweiker, i t 's stated that there was a 22 link for Agent Orange that affected many of the illnesses 23 that the veterans claimed to have. . 24 A Would you say that again , I d i d n 't 25 follow you there. JAM ES MAY R E PO R TIN G SER V IC E MR. PRATT; Read It back. (Whereupon the reporter read back the preceding question.) A Yes, it states there is a lin k to a variety of ailments. Q (By Mr. Pratt) O .K . Hand you what's been marked P l a i n t if f s 1 E xh ibit #153 (Monsanto Id e n tifi cation # 83 2 4 3 9 6 ), and ask you to take a look at that, sir. This Is a two-page document, this being P l a i n t i f f s 1 E xhibit # 153, is a two-page document authored by Dan R. Bishop on February 12 , 1982, to members of the Nitro Health Study Task Force, is it not, and you1re a recipient of that document? A Yes. Q And it says in the f i r s t paragraph, nFor pur information, the review w ith Dr. Suskind went very w ell. He's produced a very thorough, professional study which w ill prove very h e l p f u l ." Did that have to do with his trip to Nitro where he talked to the in dividuals? pending. A No. That's mentioned later as s t ill Q As what, sir? A That's mentionedlater as s t ill pending. Q O .K . Says in the thirdparagraph, JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G S ER V IC E 1' 1 2 J 3 A 5' 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 :: . 21 22 * *-y */V * 23 24 "N 25 11Ctico i t ' s been accepted for publication (probably in six to eight weeks) the following release schedule will apply: (1) Nitro Plant V i s i t . Dr. Suskind w ill pre- sent findings/conclusions to employees and answer questions." That' s stated there, right? A Yes. Q " ( 2 ) Public &lease. The following day (or as soon after the employee briefing as possible) Dr. Suskind w ill preside at a bull-blown press conference at the University of C incinnati. A l l m aterial, includ- ing the news release, w il l be on University letterhead, i . e , , it w il l be his show, with Monsanto people there only as interested observers." That' s what the second paragraph says, right? A Yes. Q Third paragraph, "Post-Suskind Re- lease. Once the study is made public, Monsanto would be free to participate in followup, local angle inter- views. At N itro , David F r a zerw ill be our spokescan. In St. Louis, it should presumably be Drs. Tillman and Gaffey." That' s what that says, right? A It says, " i t Bhould probably b e ," but, yes. v Q " (4) Once the study is published in a journal, we w ill be free to supply copies on request." 12* l J A M E S M A Y R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E >1 1 2 3 4; ` '-5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 ; :;21 23 24 25 And this document is dated February 12 of 1982, Isn*t that correct, sir? A That's correct. Q And as of this date that study has not bean forthcoming, has it? A Not to the best of my knowledge it has not been published. Q Is the Nitro Health Study Task Force, is that s t i l l in existence? A On a basis of as-needed the membership wLd be called together, but we do no longer have routine meetings. Q W e ll, have you consulted with Dr. Suskind about why this study has not been published? A No. I t ' s been Dr. Roush's territory. Q He' d be the man to testify as to that? A He could t ell you what contacts have been made there. I 've not personally contacted Dr. Suskind to ask the status of i t . We try to limit that to one particular person making contact rather than badger the man with calls from any number of interested parties. Q O .K . Hand you whatfs been marked Plaintiffs* E xhibit #154 (Monsanto identification #232390), sir. JAM 5 MAY R E P O R T IN G SER V IC E 1 P l a i n t if f s ' Exhibit #154, pages 1 2 through 5 , cover page being a document from R. M. 3 Galloway, dated Ikrch 5 , 1982, and the subject is : Nitro V i s it - Dr, Suskind, and i t 's to a i l the members, 5 it looks lik e , of the Nitro Health Study Task Force, 6 is that correct? 7 A That's correct, 8 Q And is it clear to you from pages 2 9 through 4 that Monsanto is orchestrating the entire 10 press conference business on that study that's not yet 11 in existence? 12 A No, that's not clear to me at all.fro m 13 t h i s . 14 Q W e ll, l e t 's look at page 2, First 15 part of the page it says, "Who W ill Attend?',' doesn't it? 16 A I t does. 17 Q . Next heading is , "H ot W ill Participants 18 be Contacted?", does it not? 19 A I t does. 20 Q Next heading is , "Where to Hold the ,21 M eeting?", does it not? A It does. 23 Q Next one says on page 2 , "Where w ill 24 Press Confernce be H e ld ? ", does it not? 25 A I t does. JA M E S MAY R E P O R TIN G SER VIC E 1 1 3 3 ./V . 4' ^ ' . r :" 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 ^3.,;:21 22 * - w - . ;t ** * 23 v 24 25 1 Q And on page 3 the fin a l heading i s , nHow to Communicate to Employees who Cannot A tten d ," does it not? A It does. Q Then on page 4 there is a letter that proposed that Dr. Suskind write to the people who are going to attend the meeting, right? A Yes, there is a proposed letter. Q O .K . Then on page 5 there is a pro- posed postcard that they are to mail back, right? A That's correct, there is a proposed postcard. Q And I t 's your feeling that Monsanto was not orchestrating the whole press conference? A No. Not when we use the word "pro- posed." That means to me a suggestion made to others. That's exactly what I would interpret from this. These are our suggestions for how to do this thing. Q Now, we have gone over in your depo- sitio n some 55 documents, and 34 of those documents, idy count is righ t, Dr, Suskind's name appears as being contacted by members of this Task Force, Would that be a fair statement? A I ' l l have to take your word for the number, but, yes, he was contacted frequently. JAM ES MAY R E P O R T IN G SER VIC E f 12 Vi J. 1 \2 3 . . -^* l /. \ \l , 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 . ` -21 1 * ** -22 23 24 J 25 Q And Monsanto was given data on the progress of his study, is n 't that correct? A Monsanto was shown tabulations of his da t a . . Q 0 ,K . And you had people, such as Gaffey and Zack, who were in close contact with him on these studies, i s n 't that correct? A They'd have close contact with him primarily on their mortality studies. Q Did you knew that Dr. Suskind was under contract to Monsanto organization in this study? A He was under contract for the study as a representative of Environmental Health Institute at the University of Cincinnati. Q You ever seen a copy of that contract? A I believe I have. Q . Let me hand you P l a in t if f s ' Exhibit #96 (Monsanto identification # 8331 250). P la in tiffs' Exhibit #96 is a copy of that contract, consisting of three pages, i s n 't that right, sir? A I'm not sure what it is . I 'v e never seen this before. Q And it sets forth some of the terms of that document, doesn't it? ' 1 JA M ES MAY REPO RTING SERVICE ti i. A Apparently so. Q For instance, on page 2 , item 3 , it states, "Monsanto w ill provide the Principal In v e s ti gator with a l l data from death c e r t ific a te s , hospital and other c lin ic a l records Monsanto has regarding the health status of past and present employees of Mon s a n t o ^ plant at N itro , West V ir g in ia , who were exposed to the 2 ,4 ,5 - T process from 1948 to 1969 and to the materials involved in the 1949 runaway reaction described in the attached protocol." That's what that says? A Yes. Q Did Monsanto pick the people that would be in that study or the deceased persons? A I can't answer that, I wasn't involved. Q Who were the people that would be in volved? A I'm not sure who I t would be. Since I was not party to this, I c a n 't say who did what. Q Paragraph 4 , "Monsanto w ill also provide the Principal Investigator with copies of a l l work h i s tories and medical records it has for the individuals covered by the study," right? A It says that. Q Also states in there in paragraph 4 that Monsanto Is to be provided a preliminary report of JAM ES MAY R E P O R TIN G S ER V IC E r 1 the findings of the study upon completion of a proper 2 analysis of the data, is that correct? 3 A I'm trying to find where you' re reading. ; 4.' Q I t ' s right on down in 4.- . ; 5 A Yes. 6 Q Is that what that says? 7 A That's what it says. 8 Q Has Monsanto to date been, to your 9 knowledge, been provided a preliminary report? 10 A I 'v e nfc seen anything other than 11 tabulations of data which are produced in slides to 12 Monsanto's employees some time ago. 13 Q Paragraph 6 , "The administrative 14 aspects of this agreement for Monsanto shall be under 15 the direction of Dr. George Roush." That's what number 16 6 says, right? 17 A Dr. George Roush. 18 (J Paragraph 7 , Suskind agrees to testify 19 for a period of five years a fte r the study any place 20 Monsanto wants him to t e s t ify and to give affid av its . 21 they want, i s n 't that correct? 22 A Yes. 23 Q And you, s i r , aretellin g this Jury 24 that Dr, Suskind is independent in his dealings with 25 Monsanto, is that right? JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G S ER VIC E A That's pointed out very adequately in item 5 on this same paper. MR. PRATT: That's a l l I have. Let me state for the record that we had scheduled today Jack Garrett, and we have ju st finished a l it t le after noon with the testimony of Dr. Ernie Tillman, which took a h a l f day longer than we thought, and that we were forced to cancel Garrett at this time, the reason being that the docu ments which were sent out to me on that particular deposition w eren't in the n a il that I got; so we would like to set him at another time. I guess what we can do is just continue on with the present schedule. Tomorrow we have -- you have it before you. Who do we have? MR. LOVE: Tomorrow we have scheduled Mr. Ferdinand Zienty at 9:0 0 A.M. and Mr. M. T. White at 1 :0 0 P .M ., and X would in dicate to you that those folks are not employees of Monsanto Company and w ill have to be subpoenaed, but pursuant to my letter addressed to you June 15, 1983, scheduling them for this time, X in dicate to you they JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G SER VIC E F 1 ; 3 4 ': '5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 . 21 * .; 22 - v.. - 23 24 ) 25 *1 had agreed to allow me to accept service for witness subpoenas for their appearance, but I suggest you serve them a t the time and place of the deposition and we*11 have them here. (Whereupon discussion was had off the record.) MR. LOVE: I would indicate to you also that Jack Garrett' s deposition was scheduled for today at 9 :0 0 A.M . and scheduled for a fu ll day, and h e's the Director of Industrial Hygiene for Monsanto Company in St. Louis, and he, consequently, is a very busy person. We spent substantial period of time preparing him for his deposition on yesterday, and this morning I was advised that you were not prepared to take his deposition due to lack of delivery of documents from your office in Charleston and to advise Mr. Garrett that his deposition was cancelled. Just for the purpose of the record, he was not happy about that. He is a very busy man and set aside both yesterday and today for the purposes of his deposition. I understand i JA M ES MAY R E PO R TIN G SERV CE 1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 -22 -I i t ' 7 23 24 25 that these problems arise with regard to documents. W e 'l l do the best we can in terms of supplying him at a later date, but in the future i f such a r is e s , I would appreciate it i f you would give us more advance notice and, perhaps, we can cause these individuals less d iffic u lt y in terms of their scheduling and ours. MR. FRATT: Very good. Dr. Rrnest Tillman JA M ES MAY R E PO R TIN G SERVICE 14 STATE OF ILLINOIS ) ) ss. COUNTY OF MADISON ) I , M. JOY SPRINGER, a Notary Pub lic, duly commissioned and qualified in and for the County of Madison, State of I l l i n o i s , do hereby c e r t ify that pursuant to notice came before me on June 27 and June 28, 1983, at the Radisson Hotel, Room 215, 9th Street and Convention Plaza, St. Louis, Missouri, DR. ERNEST TILLMAN, who was by me duly sworn to testify to the truth and nothing but the truth of his knowledge touching and concerning the matters in controversy in this case; that he was thereupon carefully examined upon oath, and his examination reduced to writing under my supervision; that the deposition is a true record of the testimony given by the witness; and signature of the witness was not wa ived. I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am neither attorney nor counsel for nor related to nor employed by and of the parties to the action in which this deposition is taken; and further, that I am not a relative or employee of any attorney or counsel em ployed by the parties hereto, or fin a n c ia lly interested in the action. JAM ES MAY R E PO R TIN G SER VIC E ? IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have h ereu n to s e t my 2 hand and affixed my notarial seal on this 3 day of July, 1983. 4 5 6 7 8 Notary Public within and for the County of Madison, State of Illin o is . 9 10 11 0 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 JAM ES MAY R E P O R TIN G SERVICE