Document QMgER6kwdV6JZ8nMXG9y2kVOv

FILE NAME: PPG (PPG) DATE: 1975 DOC#: PPG006 DOCUMENT DESCRIPTION: Legal - Deposition of Richard Gage c v r.il :n t h e u n i t e d s t a t e s d i s t r i c t c o u p i 2 FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS i 5 TYLER DIVISION 4 - x s' HERMAN YANDLE, et al., 6 Plaintiffs 7 vs. 8 Civ ._ r.ction N o 9 PPG INDUSTRIES, INC., et al. 10 Defendants 11 12 IN THE UNI TEI STATE? DISTRICT COUPE 15 FOR THE EASTERI: DISTRICT OP TEXAS 14 TYLER DIVISION 15 - x 16 LESTER KAY (Ar al- Intervening Plaintiffs) 1? i c rrr\'_~a_ 19 i 20 21 22 2? 24 25 26 27 2B 2C PPG INDUSTRIES, iNC., et a... Deposition of rn CnAr.^ GAfjo. proou^c-, &-- e r m i n e d the 4th and 5th 1 ;ya of - - tits -- Messrs Davies, Arnold Coc .per, 4/7, Salisbury Court, 7 onset, pa-,d--iv oQ .~r--., g_ar.a, rurstsnt uo a Notice. . v l u . h ; -- 'V vy La -- S 0 -- * ., 61, Carey \,m^ ` 5Tr. T-- c.*- . L. j.w: >- Ci S APPEARANCES: 2 vfiNDIE et El. vs, PPG INDUSTRIES, INC., et al. 5 4 For the Plaintiffs: MULLINAX, WELLS, KAUZY & BAAB, Inc. P.O. Ben 4^972, Suite 200, Elmbrook Gardens, 5 820A Elmbrook Drive, Dallas, Texas 7524'/ 6 r* By: FREDERICK K. BARON I e Fcr Defendants North American Asbestos Corporation anr. v.spe i.-du-ne.. TOUCHSTONE BERN AYS & JOHNSTON, 2600 Fidelity On:on Tower, Dallas, Texas 752C1 By: RICHARD BERKAYS For Defendants PPG Industries, Inc. and Dr. Grant: JOHN P.S. O'CONNOR, "'3 PPG Industries, Inc., One Gateway Center, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania 15222 13 LESTER KAY, ot al. v s , PPG INDUSTRIES, INC., et al 16 For the Plaintiffs: 17 SCOTT BAI OVIN, P.O. Box 1 2 ^9 , Marshall, Texas 73o7C 15 For Defendants North American Asbestos Corporation an: . Cape Industries: 19 20 TOUCHSTONE, BHEKAi 3 r1 v/. . : v u -- 2o00 Fidelity Union Tower, Dallas, Texas 7:201 22 2^ i 25 : I 26 27 23 By: RICHARD BERNAYS For Defendants PPG Industries, Inc. and Dr. Grant: JOHN P.S. O'CONNOR, PPG Industries, Inc., One Gateway Center, _ Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania 152a- Also oresent: Hr A .J . PENNA Kr H . K A.Y E Kr D.A. KcINTOSH (Parvi D i ;ime) 30 ; 2 RICHARD GAZE, 3 having been duly and publicly 4 sworn, testified as follows; 5 DIRECT EXAMINATION by MS BALDWIN 6 q Would you five us your name, please? 7 A Richard Gaze. 8 q What is your full name, your complete name? Q A Richard Gaze. 10 Q, Ana you have no other name? 11 A No. I have no other name. 12 A And your address? 13 Aft J7, Farley Court, Kelbury Road, V.l2. 14 Q London? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Do you have a telephone nt-mbe. . 17 A I do. 1B Q Would you give us that? 19 r /-V'-v-?- A Ovd-c.i ^ . 20 rs Kay I ash your are? 21 A -r- ^ I 22 r. What is your present employment? 23 I am an executive director of Cape m a u s t r ies. 24 7 How long have you seen employes witn ~~Pe In iustries? 25 ir.06 _^ 's O- ;stries? 0 -n vastt oats city did yru come to uape a-- 27 A As a research o.semist. 25 A May I ask v.-here you got your scroc*_ng 29 V.'y:^2. T 2 f C >.'* g** - ^ -- - >-- XrT\' V,"nat ;; s'--, uaer.t of your schooling?' A When you say "schooling", you mean o: my eauca^xw*.; 2 3 Q All right. 4 A After I left school I Joined the Gas Light & Coke Company l^*Vi\ T A.ViS'U or. as a laboratory assistant, ar.d I studied chemistry 5 part-ti me at the University of London, where I get my first 6 degree, my Bachelor's degree. 7 e Q In chemistry? A In chemistry. Gy Q When did you obtain your bachelor's degree? 10 A 1940. -1 12 T Did you continue your education after that? A I did, but not immediately. 13 3, When did you go back to your education? 1 - z' r A 1948 or 1949. * ,y Q After the war? 16 A Yes. 17 3 And where did you go to school? 15 A London University. 19 20 Q 'What degree did you get next? /F-* The degree of a Doctorate of Philosophy ir Chemistry. " C. .CS. r, Does that complete your education? 22 A Yes. 23 2A Q What year was this; 1949? A I started in 1949; I completed in 1953/54. 25 Q Have you had any particular sphere 9 26 A Generally in inorganic chemistry. 27 Q, What would that involve? 23 A Aside from, my interest in asbestos, x nave been 29 t J. U A1!. 30 3- Vi wnen g q you u r s i uu euij nuin xu ~ ---- te 2 A When I Joined Cape Asbestos, as it was in those days. 3 0 You had done none before then? 4 A ho. 5 Q You came there when, now? 6 A I came to Cape Asbestos in 19^3- ' 7 o And have you been with them continuously from that time to now? 8 Yes. *fct: 9 e At that time how many companies were involved in the corporate 10 set-up of Cape Asbf-stos? 11 I c a n 't tell you. 12 Q Have companies been added from then till now? "i 3 A Yes. 14 Q Has Cape Asbestos become Cape Asmeseos Inu^st^ies, L-mu^ed.' "i 5 A Yes. 16 Did it change its name? 17 Yes. 13 When was this? 17 I 20 21 22 5 2 approximately a year ago. Q Until it changed its name approximately a year ago, wna. was the name c: it? The Cape Asbestos Company Limited. Were you in the service during the war years? 24 I was not. 25 Q Have you been in London the entire time that you have bee.. 26 with Cao.Jt: r\: tos Limited? 2? Yes, 28 j_ mean by that that you resided in Lon 29 Or immediately outside London. 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 5 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 15 19 20 21 22 23 25 26 27 25 2c s * | w u ^ / v n u w ' v u k/ww -_ '^ -- A Cape Industries. 0 Is it Cape Industries? A Cape Industries; not "Asbestos". q _has a number of subsidiaries.- A That is right. q Tnat are wholly owned? A That is right. Q And if I understand correctly, you and Kr Higham serve on -he Board of each of these companies? A No, I am. not on the Board of all of the subsidiary companies. q Which ones are you not on the Board o^? A I am not on the Board of Kismet Limited; I am not on the Ecard of the Hairfieid Lime Company Limited: I am not on the Board of Trist Draper. q Certainly all of the companies that have to do with tne mining, manufacture and sale of asbestos you are on tne 3oard cf A No, I am not. I an or, the Boar of Cepe Asbestos (Couth Africa but I am not on the Boar d of the mining companies. Q You are not on the Beard. of EGKEr? A No. t. So you are on the Board of Cape Asbestos (South Africa), out not on the Board of the subsidiaries of that company; is the way it is? A That is correct. Q. Were you in any way connected with a transaction oemeer. Cane Industries and Johns K.anville wnere they we.e e.-g^o-^ a Joint venture? A That was Marinite, the formation of M a r m i t e 5 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 IO 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 13 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 2E 2E 3^ to what you are referring.- Q Yes. A At the time of the formatter, of this company I was rot involved. Q Well, were you since? A Yes, I have been on the 3 oard of K a r i m t e xo-mi. , What did that company sell, or what did that company do? It manufactured and sold a product called K&- -- - ^ q Which is a ship board? A Yes. 0 Where did it sell it? A Throughout the world, apart from, I believe, uhe hor^. A m e . ^ - . continent. Q You say ''Apart from"? A Yes. C They did not sell it in the United States? A I don't believe sc. I was not inve-veo. m e xw.*-- w-. t.hi.s company. 1 Ceca o ^reem-^_-..b.oeeri t-h-e exact terms of the agreemer. Q The agreement you speak of is between wno? A Of any agreement. 0 There was an agrees d o n 't know the terms of any agreement. ,t between Cape Asbes ani Johns K a m i lie, ( )\ O'] O 11 w a s n 't there? A I am assuming so for the purpose of answering your cy 'Sii: but I have no knowledge of it. Q You have never seen it? A No. KR 3ALRV.TN: Incidentally, at this point we wi-l-asu :c agreement, rake the agreement between Johns h a m i - - es or m-v of its subsidiaries . ahou V- - 1- V - -- (! *=>y-' r- c>r***Q D6e1rAur een ohe yea. - -90- a..- - 2 19^3 and you have been with them down to the present time? 3 A That is correct. 4 Q, And your present position is what? - 5 A I am executive director of Cape Industries and chief scientist. 6 Q When did you become executive director of Cape Industries? 7 A 1961. 8 Q When did you become chief scientist? 9 A During the 19 5 0 's. 10 Q When did you get on the Board of the Cape South African companies 11 A I became an alternate director very socn after I joined the 12 Cape Asbestos Board. 13 Q When did you get on the Cape Asbestos Board9 ** ' A Well, when you say "Cape IndustriesT, I take that as being the 15 same thing as Cape Asbestos for our present purposes. 16 Q Was that I96? 17 A Yes. 16 Q You also are a member of the Board of Directors f Cate Asbestos 19 Fibres ? 20 A That is so. 21 Q When did you become a member of the Board of that company? 22 A That was 1952 or 1959 23 Q, Are you or. the Board of North American Asbestos Ccrporation? 24 A I a m . 25 Q When? 26 A I believe it was in the late 19 6 0 's. 27 Q As I understand it, you are not now and have never been on the 26 Board of Direc tors of EGKB?? 29 A I have been on i^n^ Board of Directo 30 Q When were you on the Board cf E3NE? 7. 2 3 4 3 6 ? 8 9 10 11 12 1? 14 15 16 1? 18 19 20 21 22 23 C-i r< 23 I came off that Board in the beginning of 1974, cvc Dfc" cvc ^ w a E . SO I would have beer, on that Board from approximately 1969 to 197^. -ri_,, j -f fpne Asbestos (South Africa). Q. When did you go on the B^&rd oi tape asue A I thought you just askea me that. i- t rtovr'4- c p p vjw&*'*e I vrrote it dowr.. Q : thought I did, too, but I can see A Yes, that is right; I went on as an alternate director m about 1961/62. C; Has there been a char.fe in the relationship of E3KEP to any of these companies? A Ko. Q Has EOKEF always been a subsi iary of Cape Ashe cs (Couth Africa)? Within my recollection, arrangements going back yes. into I believe there were different the early 19 3 0 `s, b u t .... Q B^.w since recent years...? A Since my period of experience , there has beer, no change. Q Cape Asb estos Industries is simply a hcl ding company? KR ,YS: Cape Industries. KR r>.-.-- 'IN t Cape Industries; I am sorry. A Y e s , tha.t is correct. r<-. It u.ar.u: actures nothing; it sells nothin these subsidiaries which are engaged: in L/- * it simply holes various activities.' A That j,, correct. Q One 1r>^ -fr.e activities is the mining d-- the so.le of asbestos? A Yes. 27 u s* . _ ---LX^- Q "*'*1c the mining and the sale of asbe ^Z-OS j --*l 28 l *''r "'s T.rir'O'u^.r* ^he ccrp 6 c.!Tn of Cape Asbestos ccrr ec;. 29 i (Sou Africa; and its subsi diaries c 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ne 11 12 13 il 15 16 17 15 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 25 29 30 North American Asbestos Corporation does play a part in the sale of asbestos? A Yes. q And Cape Asbestos Fibres likewise does; is that correct? A Yes. q But the way that Cape Industries, Inc. makes a profit for its shareholders is that it receives dividends from these subsidiaries? A That is so. Q And it makes an allocation each year for these suLid-ar*es to pay? A No. The subsidiaries declare a dividend. Q Weil, is there not an allocation made each year of what portion of the Cape Industries corporate expense that each subsidiary will pay? MR BERKAYS: Services. A Oh, the service charge? That is correct. MR BALDWIN ; I call it an allocation. What do you call it? A I call it a service change. Q Or an assessment? A No, a service charge. It performs certain services. 0 Whatever you call it, it is a charge that is mace to -ne companies? A That is correct. Q, The subsidiaries? A Yes. Q And Cape Industries, ][nc. owns all cf one soock _n companies; is that r:; A Tnat is right. o X 1 J . G . </ J . 0 i The Board of Directors elects cr appoints the officers of the 5t company, is this true, of the various companies? 4 A When you say "the 5 6 < The manager-. A The managers, that 7 8 Q What I as rea ilv c the Board of Directors? 9 A The companies are run through their own Boards of Directors. 10 Q V.'no in turn servo- at the sufferance of the stockncicers: 11 A That is right. 12 So it is, on the other end of the coin, the stockholder that "13 has the ultimate say as to how the company, one of your 14 subsidiary companies, is conducting its business? 15 A I am sorry; was that a question? 15 C, les. Is that correct? 17 A would you repeat the question, please? 1B Q, I said- In the final analysis it is the stockholders who 19 20 deter mine ho w the company is r on? 21 A A s wi th any bus in ess, yes 22 KR RSRL'AVC . Yo u are talking abou t in general terms, aren t you, --liv ^ A.V so sc ific oetaaas ? 23 MR BALDw IK: T thank the cue stion is clear enou g h . 24 Q Now, all of these compar.i es we re formed at the instance of 25 Cape Ind **C- ie tV 25 A Yes. 27 Q, mV-,n -- is 2S way tJipy 'jhOS e to cper nr*yv 7 A Yes. 29 i o ,i 1J.''* K- 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 *10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 29 30 it wanted to? A I assume so. Q But it chose to do it through subsidiary holding companies? A That is so. Q And I believe EGNEP, for example, has no selling personnel? A No. 0. A6*in, the laci4.t of telling - rerketing, i- ye- Pi - yovr asbestos product is done througn another subccd-ary of Cape Industries? A Partially, yes. Q What do you mean when you say "partially'? A EGNEP will sell some of its asbestos directly to consumers. It sells some of its asbestos directly to a merchant, or -o merchants. e What part does Cape Asbestos Fibres play in marketing of th: asbestos? A Cape Asbestos Fibres is essentially a selling company. It purchases asbestos from, among othe: supyhc- 3 amd it sells t -L' to consumers of asbestos. Q, Why was the separate company of Fibres set ur to handl e sale aspect of the marketing of asoes uos, * a ^ .e- 1* doinS it directly fr om EGNEP? A There are two reasons for this. rpv. o fi Gt -J_ zc> U i l d w -J-* 'E? is remotely C j_ tuated geographic ally, and cor.secuently n d.s not in a pos~uden to conduct a marketing orgar.i nation with the parts of the: V,orld V,nere asbest os is used. uc 6~ ^ w *^ 1.-- y pr*>" reasons it i C; desirable ibat it should be dea:, y dem c: *rac--e clearly shovTi to be 0 0 0 i a c w hat EC'/EP is a separas e r r . i r i r q O r 5.17.J_ Zc. u -- 0 *. i it is quite seoe he organi-a tior.c 11 V-' 2 3 4 C 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 X 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 aa 23 24 23 26 2? 0 = O*--Q> 30 r\ Why is that? A I am not a tax expert. What is your understanding, as an official of Cape ^dusL-nes, Q is the reason for this? The reason for this Is that there would be a possibility that, for example, Cape Industries could pay tax twice. 0 How would they pay tax twice. There might be a possibility of -- or put it this way: Cupe A Industries could pay ta.. in respect of the profits of hCi.EP as declared ir. Louth Africa. . ,, .._ +.v,^x. vn,,v. c;ou^v A ^ i c a n orerations might Q What you are saying cs tha- yo. bou... ----. be taxed 'under the British set-up? nv, r *i j C* r* r- O Q And thr-t is undesirable; is that correct? Yes. Q So that is c of the reasons for the creation of this separar entity to handle the sale of asbestos? A I thi 1 4-V* e "! c th jase. I don't steak with great autnon^. here because it wa :one before I came ---Q m v r waiss_ m..y nexvt Qcuesiii.. W--r-'-a-'~ w"as 1 o dor.t;.' A ECNEP? 0. Ho, Cape Fibres. Cane Fibres was formed in 1938 or 1959* So that was the reason for the creation of Cepe Fibres, is hi you have ;'ust explained? Yes. Q how, vou ha*'e anc *-V - r>or" pT'V North American tnat was creates ir. the Unites States - vine: I believe it was 1953 The nriswer to your ys 2 Q About the same time that Cape Fibres was r A Oh, no, before that. 3 4 MR BARON: 1958. MR BALDWIN: I thought he said "1953"5 6 MR KAYE: 1958/59- MR BALDV.TN: I misunderstood him. I thought ne saic earl-er 7 8 "1953". Q, Cape Fibres came after North American? 9 1C A YTes. q What was the North American company? Vuy was it created? ii A I can't tell you. I v.'asn't invo-ved with the man^gemen^ o 12 the company at that time. 13 Q, Do euiy of these subsidiaries manufacture any product w m c h .s 14 sold in the United States other than the asoesuos; 15 A Manufacture any product, no. Wnen you say these suDsiuj.ar*es , 16 no, not that I am aware of. 17 MR BERNAYS: Are you referring to any of the suosiaiaries 18 of Cape Industries? 19 20 MR 3ALDWIK: Any. 21 A I can't answer that. Q What part, in the marketing of asoestos, does >or.r. A,.'er^c^.. 22 Asbestos Corporation play? 25 24 A NAAC (I will call it tha t ) ; companies ana sells it to c 25 /"\ What does its area include ? 26 2? A The North Amer:can continen Caribbean. 23 Q What is your role a,s enecut 29 in connection with. o 30 iustr i e: up. Vu V : _ M x euii uuo.Ci. owi^i *-*.*>w 2 MR BALDWIN: You are also an executive director? 3 A Of Cape Industries, yes, that is right. 4 Q What does that rule require you to do? What are you" duties 3 and your responsibilities? 6 A In my capacity as chief scientist I have an overall concern 7 v;ith uiy technical or scientific question that arises -n ohe 8 widest sphere of our business. 9 Q You are the top man with reference to scientific que: 10 A That is so. 11 Q You don't go any further above you in your company? 12 A I answer to the Board of Cape Industries for all sci 13 questions. 14 0, What are your duties and responsibilities with rej.er "5 A-our job as executive director' 16 ; serve on a number of the subsid-ar^ Ocl.v~s. 17 Q And help m the management of the company m tnat manner. 13 A In the management of Cape m a u s t r i e s L.n e-. 19 n'CC And the various subsidiaries? 20 A I am non-executive on these Soares, with ^ne eue., 21 Cape Asbestos Fibres. 22 Q You are executive on that Scare? 23 A Yes. 2-- So yon do participate in the aay-to-cay hanc.-L-.ng o*. <i UA AVI cf Cape Asbestos Fibres? 26 I do. 2? Q You have been made aware, have you net, tna- mar.ufactured asbestos which has beer, purcr.ased sy Corning arc us *'v`' 'Z'r.Gt y Tyler q would you t e i j . us. xiutr. w u v w* -------- 2 tiie sale of this asbestos? 3 A y e s . There was an agreement between Pittsburgh Corr._..g a..d 4 EGNEP 5 e I will hand you v.hat has already leer, identified as Exhibit P.1, 6 dated 5.20.75 with the initial M.F.B. ano ask you to look at 7 it, and tell me if that is a copy of the agreement? 6 A Yes, that seems to be it. It is this to which. I was referring. 9 0 ^hat is the agreement you were refer* **> to. 10 A Yes. 11 q_ Under the terms of that agreement asbestos vac sold *rom 12 to Pittsburgh C o ming? 13 A Yes. 14 Q How long did this relationship last? 1 $ A EGNEP sold asbestos bo Pittsburgn Corni;.g - - luS s 16 Corning -- well, "How long did n iasu. - u.. 17 q The agreement, I believe, is i-te^ -y-O- 18 r 1962. 19 0. August of 1962? 20 A Tnat s n g V. .. U*-/ 21 * 0. So would it be i'air to say, the 22 to the tini e whatever your re cords A u g u s t 01 1 3' 23 to Pittsburgh Corni:ig asbestos was r ~ .! u U * ---- v'-/ i r r . i n g 24 under the agreement that you have 25 A Yes. 26 That woulci be somet ime in 1971 or 1 3 7 7 0, 27 A Yes, ouc.u is right. 2B /"V What part would Cap e Fibres pi n y 1 his trar. 29 A Cape Fi or es played a liaison r ole 30 c r:^ c ! Cape Fibres, as part of its duties, is responsible for the general promotion of the products of the mining companies. Q Does that include advertising? . A It does. And various usual incidents of promotion and promoting a Q product on the world market? That is sc. v;hrt activities doe* it do other than advertise in the promotion of this product? A It has. co-crdi:r.aiing role. Q Explain that, if you would. A As I ex; lained a little while ago, ' location cf the asbestos mines in S consider ed that the co-crdint ion o by Cap Fibres. Who made that de termination? A I don't kn ow. Q Someone with Cape Industries? A I don 11 kr ov,T. i; have no know].edge reached. I w a s n 't a party to i -- Q It a'o u I:1 be a decision of Cape Indi A I don't kn ow. Q What other activities does Cape Fibres do to promote the sale of asbestos , other than advertise? rrv *Jri\j has this co-ordinati on funcr5on ierrea. It advises the mines on marketing ' Q How is iv pa''d? It is raid a commission for this serv: A The commission varies depending upon the area that -s ir.voiveu, 2 Q Well, let's take the United States. 3 u. A The United States, it is paid yfr. I was hesitating because I wasn't sure whether it was 3 or 2 feel sure i - j-s 5 6 Q Of the gross sale? A Of the gross sale. 7 e Q Ana w**0 o 9 A I am sorry, it isn' 10 value from Couth Af 11 Q What would that be, 12 A That is right. It asked me who pays that. That is paid by the mining company 13 14 Q EGNEP? A In this case, EGNEP. 15 0 Nov; North American Asbestos is likewise p a n a comm^s_c..? 16 A It is. 17 13 Q, Of }? A No. The North American. Asbestos commission in - or r> c c . 19 20 would be 21 Q, And that is paid by who? 22 A By the mining company. n By EGNEP? 23 2^ A That is right. c-,o In a typical sale of goods that would go to e Tyler plant, 25 let's just suppose, starting on tne Tyler er.i of it, could 26 you tell me how a typical transaction wcuic ta.v6 ,,-- ~ ~ ~ 27 Someone at the Tyler plant would say "<-'e need Si tons"? .nA. Yes. I would have no knowlecge oi tn_; ^n.-- we receives -29 30 wnen _ say v;e , let us 2 3 *8 6 7 e 9 10 12 "'3 14 'ip 16 | 17 ; i 18 ! 19. 20 2' 22 23 24 25 26 2? 28 2 9 i *2/~*v i would be that the purchasing office In Pittsburgh wouic give a message which would be relayed through NAAC that they wa-.ted 500 tons of their 1970 allocation delivered during March. This information would be passed to Cape nsbes^os F.bres, who would check this as part of their co-ordinating function. Check it with what? A The availability of asbestos at tost i.i-:- then relay this information to EGNEP with .a recommendation that all of it, part of it, let us say all cf it, 500 tens, should be shipped at a particular time. Q To a particular place? A To a particular place, because the place would have bee.: notified by Pittsburgh's purchasing office, q How is payment made from Pittsburgh to n^--<n?? A This is all in the past, of course. There is no payment now. This is all finished a number of years ago. Payment was maae by letter cf credit, Q hcolain how that would work. -. jPT_Lr1./r=s;b1ur Eh Corning would open an account witn a ba_:k _n South Africa. It would have what we call a blanket letter ccredit. In other words, it would keep a sum o* mone^ , ar. account topped up. The mining company, when the material was placed on the ship, would get snipping documents to p-e^.-..^ to the bank in South Africa. Q, Then or. that authority the bank wouic pay? A. v<ou ic pa y . P Then there would be a transfer of fu ids between th United ates to the bank in South Africa? A transfer of funds fron one unitec -'dates J > r* Q I understand that; it was between tne Dantesv 2 A Between the banks. 5 Q How would Cape Industries benefit frorr such a sale? 4 A Eventually through the dividends it received from the 5 operating companies. 6 Q, And the ability of the operating companies to pay their 7 service charge or assessment? 8 A Yes, that is so. 9 Q What does the parent corporation do if operations suen as 10 this become 'unprofitable, if there are suer.? 11 A In these situations they would, through t h e n representation 12 on the Boards of Directors of the subsidiary" companies, ask 13 for explanations. 14 Q Or direct changes? 15 A Or changes. 15 Q To be conducted. In other words, they would try to fine cn. 1? the problem? 18 A T h a t 's right. "G ' S Q Ana ohen they would give instructions as ^o hcv, n 20 the treble:..? 21 A When you say ''they", you mean tre Boaro c. u_rr.. 's cf she 22 subsidiary company concerned? 23 Q, I mean the parent company. 24 A No, the parens company would only be involves ~o eno err 25 that it had directors on tne subsiciary company oo&ros. 25 C; Whereas a company that is wholly owned - let's say you 27 one of these whcliv owned companies that r.as a prc__e...> 28 no longer mailing a profit. When you noo, is to.. - 29 vou are saying Yes or Vo. 30 0 If it has a proDiem wnere xu uv xs~*o-- ----- * c 2 can't pay the all-important dividend or the service change 5 or assessment? 4 A Exactly the same thing would happen as would happen on any i'm . -Mi-- 5 company which has a Board of Tirectors. 6 . i j __ +, r>~rpr tor s and say 'What s the Q The shareholders would go to th- ^ r 7 problem?' ? 6 A That's right. 9 q " L e t s find out the problem and let's correct iu ? 10 A That is : _ght. Exactly the same thing would Happen w. Jt 11 subs iaia] 12 Q And the : 13 or eradii 14 A T h a t 's r 15 Q, And give 16 problem;? 17 ; whether shareholders gave ins^ruv. ,,_o-.s. A I c c n 't 1B :ive instructions to the Boa: a, wouxca. o "he'*'7 Q They wou 19 A m o f& 20 0. They ele 21 A Yes. 22 Q Anc agai ;ne: 23 rA* Yes. i. QQ,, SSoo wwhhaatt we are really saying is that C&pe es v'**w- 25 reason for existence is to give the guidance for the SuDs-*a. reason : 26 comp an if 27 A Yes. 2 3 Q And if :r.e of these subeidiary companies faxis ^o 29 and fails so be profitable, then Cape Industries is 30 20 2 A As any shareholder would be expected to do. 3 q I am not criticizing. I am just trying to find out how 4 it dees it. 3 A Yes, I understand. 6 q Because really the only reason for Cape Industries to exis. 7 is to make a profit to pay its sn&re-.olde. s a... -o > - 1 -wrI*` 8 whatever services it can and give guidance to its subsidiary 9 companies? 10 A To see that any subsidiary companies in w m c h it has 11 shareholdings perfo. m m a proper manner. 12 Q Proper manner means profitable? 13 A Exactly. 14 q And Cape Industries can and will do what is necessary ,,o 15 see that this is done? 16 A As would any shareholder. 17 q In this instance, the way it operates through its vote 18 as a shareholder G- through the naming of the a:rectors anc 19 through tre offi< ers or official s th-t the directors appoint? 20 A That's right. 21 hat there were sem- direi z sales by Cape 22 Fiores. 3 A Yes. 24 Q Which would be apa: from the arrangement we have just talue; 25 about? 26 A That is sc. 27 Q Were any direct sales ever mace to n e t sour*Eh C: 2B knowledge? o you: 29 No. 30 n t-* . i u \u v > w/w A Pittsburgh C o m i n g by Cape Fibres, r.c. y7 q Were any direct sales made by North American Asbestos 4 Pittsburgh C o m i n g during this period of time? A The only sale which is different from tnt" to wn:cn we nave referred was the stockpile transaction that KAAC entered onto ( with Pittsburgh Corning. 6 Hoe Army surplus transaction? cy i Yes. I believe it is called the G.S.A. stockpile. 10 Q How much was sold under that arrangement? 11 don't lenow. 14 15 15 17 IB 1 c 20 21 22 25 24 25 26 27 2 k ( 29 7 "\ i Ana when did it take place? o n 't know. I could tell you approximately wi " ;hree o: four years. e T\~ 41-/V.-4.sCL4L-/ t ip was towards the end of the perioc than we are discus wC*1^4 T',^* r- Toward the end cf 1271? 2 Yes. Q Well, that is the best way to put it. A T ~ *i $ 30H16V'iTlSr'fe ST*~ t)0Ca"U.SC -- ^ c. l/-* w *" *" w h't"'1e A - t- j ~j a ,.n4--- - c n r l T*"'h " asoestos mines had . -- Z-S HOW 2- it--*OV Q r\ How much, in round figures? A c k I don't know. I was not involved _r. tha_ Q Who was? rf\ North American Asbestos. If she purchaser had a prestem witn one cuar_~y o. asbestos say in the United States, what would be done to ccrrec - pnis? . Do you mean specifical_y ritisourgn Cor-- ng. 22. I uorrnng 2 If Pittsburgh Corning had problems with quality, what it would 3 normally do would be that the buyer in the Pittsburgh office 4 would telephone NAAC and say "We have got a problem with 5 fibre. It is this". 6 Q And what would you do? 7 A What NAAC would do is they would relay t m s to uape Aibes^os 8 Fibres. 9 q, And then what would be done? 10 A Cape Asbestos Fibres would investigate it. 11 Q Who would they have investigate it? 12 A When I say "investigate it" I mean they wot-d call probably 13 (we are talking of something hypothetical here) for a sample. 14 Q Have there not been actual cases cf problems? 15 A Yes. 16 Q L e t 's talk about how they were handled. 17 A This procedure has happened: There has been a complaint abou. 18 a delivery of asbestos on quality. The buyer in 19 Pittsburgh would telephone NAAC arc say there v.^s c. P- o p ---- , 20 and NAAC would say "Send a sample'. 21 Q. Then what? 22 A The sample would be transmitted to Cape Asbestos .-_ores, 23 who would examine it in their laboratory, and they would tner. 24 transmit this to EONS? with a report. 25 Q And then what? 26 A EC-NZP would say "There is no foundation in this , or they 27 would say ve agree tnat then e is a quality crntl aint here, or 28 this is justified , in whvi-cnhv- capcr& Cate Asbestos ricres wo -- . 29 then transmit the information t - r , wno w c -- lc ""t- 30 V W H O IlfcLU U I'X fc jX lA G , C/CU. ^ X IC V. 2 q Have you had occasion to send anyone free. Cape Fibres *o 5 United States in connection with any complaint on the sa^e 4 of asbestos during the 1962-72 year period. 5 A With a complaint on quality o. .ibre? e Q, Take that first. 7 A Yes. There was an occasion ir 1969 when we sent an er.bi-;eer B ar.d a technician to Pittsburgh to deal witn a complaint. 9 Q Who did you send? 1C A The scientist, or the technician, was Dr. Hoagson, ana -he 11 engineer was Mr 'White. 12 Q, Who did they meet with? A They met with a number of the technical ana aomir.^s~&--ve 14 ana purchasing people. I can't remember exactly the names. 15 MR 0'3CNN OR: Of wh o ? 16 rri. Of I - -r ^ r"j hT)'^'C jminc. Die sc.s -ru. 17 MR BALL 15 hni This 19 jt richt. It was 19 <0. Q 197C 23 A Yes. 21 Q How 22 / It \ ; resolved satisfactorily from Pittsburgn Corning poii of view7. 24 0Q,. 'VW.That` was satisfactory? WThat was done? 25 rA* AAddvv:ice was given on how the material should be hanalea, C L 'Z Q Diilkie what? 2? A Engmineering advice. Q Whs s the defect f *Ci WS.S Dr _'-5 CO...--- A* The ect was that lO fibre was sboroer 29. n/* ti inortei- uiian oney waiiteu: 2 A Yes. 3 Q Did you agree to furnish them with longer fibre or did you 4 tell them how to use this shorter fibre and then prevail on 5 them to use it? 6 A We showed them how to use the shorter fibre. 7 Q Did you continue to send the short fibre? 8 A Yes. 9 0 Nov; were there any other complaints about defective ma^ei-al. 10 A Yes, there were. ni Q Tell us about that. 12 A They were of a relatively small nature and I can't remember verw, 13 much of the detail. There were occasional complaints of foreign 14 matter in the asbestos; there were comtua_nts atou,, 15 discoloration of the asbestos; and possibly one or two ethers 16 fnat I d o n 't recall now of ? relatively isignificant nature 17 MR O 'CONNOR: Who were these fellows Dr. Hodgson and Mr White with? 15 A Who are they employed by? Cape Fibres. In fact, hr V,r._-.e 19 not, but Cape Fibres Vj...: ry 20 'rc'u Prom whe re? 21 A From a coutary calle Q 1 22 MR BALDV,[IN : Whic h belo 23 A That is right. 24 r Have you been to the U: 25 sale cf asbest c ; oorr aanny of your duties with these companies.'' 26 A Yes, I have been to the Unites States, and ..n a general se..s~ 27 in connection with the sale of assesses. 25 0 Have you had any dealings with the sa_e of tne a~-_s--s - o. 29 one _er 30 i u u i u i u n eiiiu. r u j c n , wi- ^ w v- , w . * -- ^ -- ---------- ----------- -- 2 Pittsburgh Corning? 3 4- A Yes. Q For use in the United States? c, y A Yes. 6 Q, And that that would likely take it to ary one o. the given 7 e States? A Yes. c. Q Including Texas? 10 A Yes. 11 q Who in your company would have knowledge of the sale c* -V"' c 12 asbestos for use in the Tyler plant? 13 14 A For use specifically in the Tyler plant? i would l^ke ~o make it clear that we sold asbestos to Pittscirgh uorn*..fc. 13 We had no knowledge of whether it was going to tne Tyxer -'-2--^ 16 or to any other plant. 17 Q You knew where it was being shipped to? 1B A We knew that it was going to a particular port, yes, nu,, 19 that is as far as our knowledge would go. 20 q, Well, you told me you have had complaints of tne cuali of 21 the asbestos, I think? 22 A Yes. 23 Q, And I thought I understood you to .mean or say that tne 24 cimplaint dealt wTith asbestos in the T^ler plant. 25 A I was speaking generally of Pi' 26 Q. Then is it your testimony that 27 corpo rations ever knew that an; 23 used in the Tyler plant? 29 30 c. question. iou as k b c me, i w ^ e v e , w-c>-- -- -- 2 knew that asbestos was being used in m e Tyler plant. 3 I did myself, of course, and so would some of the employees 4 of Cape Fibres. I don't believe anyone would in South A.r.ca. 5 Q Cer tainly the Forth Americas 6 A Oh, yes, the North American 7 u, Who negotiate d this contract 8 A The contract was negotiated o EGNEP. 10 A Who for EGNEP? 11 A It was signed by Justin McKeurtar, who was the chief exornme, 12 Q Ke would know that some cf that asbestos was going to De 13 used in the Tyler plan 1*. arreeme nt, woulcLn 11 he 15 A I don't known le Q Bat in any event during a number of m e years a numoer c. 1 ? people in your corporate set-up knew m a t rittsourgn were 16 purchasing large amounts of asbestos from you to be uses 19 in the Tyler plant, among other places? 20 There 'would be a number of people woe wouia atow, 21 A That would go througn the range cf companies; officials witr /-s <L l,i A V I * W - U** 'lean r rr~. A..it?. Asbestos, officials with Cape Fiores - J officials with Cape Industries'.' 24 A T h a t is so. 25 26 Q Y o u c a n ' t t e l l u s a s t' o u s i t t h e r e n o w w h a t o f f i c i a l s w i t r EGNEP knew this? 27 A T h e a n s w e r is: I cor. 't k n o w . 29 7 A r> k. Y o u w e r e a n o f f i e i s . ' r 1973- rgygt) 27 -- g w h e n ? 2 3 4 3 6 7 e 9 10 'I ^ 12 13 14 15 ID 17 IB ! 1 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 25 27 2B j 29 A I had the knowledge, yes. Q So then there is another company that would know. Would -l be correct in enumerating the companies who knew that asbestos was being sold to Pittsburgh in large quantities to be used in the Tyler plant would be officials with the following subsidiaries: EGNEP, CASAP, Asbestos Fibres, North American Asbestos and Cepe Industries? A Yes. q And would these companies that I have just namea :s *he only companies in the corporate set-up that would have a :y relate.; to the marketing of asbestos which might go to the Tyle. pla... or would there be another ore? A No. q These would be the ones? A No-cne else would have anything to do with this. e. This sale of asbesto S is just one of the incidents of the varied interests of Tape Industries? A Yes. Q But it would be an inciaer.t that Cape Industries would be vitally interested in, that is the sale of asoestos for ?: so that the subsidie ny would nave a proj.-.^ ^-n -- 'S A Putting it strictly, Cape Industries had a vital interes* in the companies who were undertaking this operation. Q And they had also a vital interest in the sale of asbesto A Indirectly, yes. Q Because that is the sole manner in which tnese compa_:_es made a profit? y 3 # 2o. ;; V, * 21 3 4 5 6 7 8 P 10 i <*.i 12 13 14 15 16 1? 18 19 20 21 22 23 2-u 25 26 : 2/ ! ! 2 i1 29 ; 3~ i K wot appi-e u i a u i c , iiu. Q We car. take them one by one. EGNE? bad no interest. A No, EGNEP's only interest is to mine and sell asbestos. Q North American Asbestos1 only interest is to promote une s&^e of asbestos; isn't that right? A Yes. They purchase a little asbestos manufacturing materials for resale, but that \ ould be the only exception to what you are saying. Q And the same would be true of Cape Fibres? A Yes. Q And CASA? is simply a holding company? A Yes. Q So really the sole interest of these companies as L,.:e^v re_&-c to Cape Asbestos Industries would be the sa^e -- a.nsv... A Yes. Q Cape Industries, as it relatea to those compur_e~, w ^ _ ~ oe interested solely through the sale of what profit m g n t be realized through the sale of asbestos.' A The interest of Cape Industries was in the profit. r Sc it was the interest of Cape Industries, anc ~o asbestos is sold profitably? rA*. Indirectly so, yes. Sometimes we don't have pity on witnesses, ana it is nara on you to just keep being asked questions. no ;-Ou tee- & drink of water or a break" a I am getting a little hoarse, to be quite honest, Kr Bauawin, as no doubt you have noticed. 1 1 gv~~.v- recess was then taxer.; po c. 0 I would like to ask you a little bit acre about this Mr White. 2 ! ! t 5 ! What company did you say he was with? 4 A Cape Universal Building Products. . ft V.'e hove rotten a ltat this morning of companies, end it w a s n 't 5 A I was hesitating because that company has now been split into 6 two operating compani.es,,, Tit4- nnno -lion.-r^ee-*.- eexxi.s~ts*>,, that company, 7 8 Q 'Why does it no longer e..ist.' A Because it has been divided into two companies which are now 9 1C Cape Universal Claddings and Cape Boards ana ;ar.e_. . 11 Q That was a Judgment that was made by the parent company.' A in fact it was a judgment made by the Chairman of the Board. Q, Who is that? 14 A Hr Doughty. Q, Chairman of the Boar a of wnat? "5 A Cape Universal Building Products, as it was. 16 17 Q, He also served on Cape Industries? 18 A He does. "i 9 20 21 22 1 23 24 25 26 27 23 j 29 1 30 ! q, In what caps city? A As an executive director. q That Judgment was made because it wu felt t: interests of running Cape Industries wou d dt --VoC. n o e ' company be split into fwo? H No, it w a s n 't in fact in this particular because I was on the Board at tne time. r*\C Go ahead. A He felt thsu 11 vas too big a company operate in tne w&j it w: s -working; so he decioea it wo^lc me -Kpr.ter to sp-- ^ and he got the uoard to agree. o What Board? 5V cL Q Was Cape Industries consulted about this? 3 A Well, he would report it, and no-cne objected. 4 Q Now, were you on the Board of that company? You said you were? 5 6 7 8 G 10 11 12 13 14 15 15 17 13 19 20 21 22 25 24 5 25 27 2 'p r w / : 7 1 i A Yes. Q When Mr While did this work, how was that company paid . for his services? A I don't recall exactly. Q Was it paid? A I c a n 't recall. Q, Wno made the Judgment to get Mr White to come over and took into the problem? A Someone in Cape Fibres would have done this. Q Would that be you? A No. As I recall, I was consulted, because it was a t e c m c a l matter. Q But anyway somebody in Cape Fibres ----A Somebody in Cape Fibres said "We need a man with expend enee of such, such, such and such ar.c saia Wr.j.te - can we ge t hi .#v ! So then what? This was made known to the company that 'Write worked for? t That is rigrt; their pernio oicr. was asked fer him tc r * This would only be for two or three days. r, XiJ So he was made available? A "Can he be made available?". r ' And he was? A And he vis. r\ Was this done frequently wit hit. your corporate set-up, that --^"ohan ce tectle? f .r . Tt ~ s done not irecuortlv; occasionally. 1H-V\ ; 0 V 7 %i. c - 2 A When necessary, but not frequently. q it is done when necessary, would be a better way o. p^t-ing lb. 3 4 A Yes. C Dc vou know whether there was ary accounting between the 5 6 companies for White's services? . 7 A I can't recall now. 6 rs You don't know this? c 10 | A I ca n 't recall now. Q Kow. as a matter of fact, is Cape Fibres paid their 3^ 11 commission? 12 A They are paid by EGNE?. 13 Q How? 14 rA\ Well, the Cape Industries, as part of the services it proviaes for the subsidiary companies, has a central banking accou...,. 15 i- *'--S So it was done by a requisition and voucher, or what? Q. 17 1B 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 ; 28 i 30 A Yes. Is that how all of the fi:.arcial arrangements of these companies are handled, by a requisition ana voucher for a cen.tr account? A No, not all of them, but, for example, specifically Cape Fibres' commission would oe paid through this central banking operation. You would app neciate there is a substantial f_ow c: funds between London ana Couth Africa one way or tne ow.er. Q Tell me how this operates , the central banking. A t am net a financial expe rt, as you will have gatnere-. 0 'Who is the nan tna^ is c.harge c_*J-* a...V .n /e-i -- *;pv'rvp a---S. 207. ^T*dLL. sacking / A We have someone on err ms in Board who is cur i m a - - - - 1 *c,v And who is that? 2. 2 how it works, of course 3 Q Give me your knowledge of how it works. A All transactions between London and South Africa would be 5 paid by cheque either from London on Cape Industries' paper 6 or from South Africa to London on Cape Asbestos (South Africa) 7 paper. 8 0 That is what it was set up for, then, to handle the money 9 transactions? 10 A ho. This came in much later as a convenient service that 11 could be performed centrally. 12 Q I still don't understand this service, let s go back to this 13 transaction and say that Cape fibres is entitled to 100,000 .c in. as a commission from EGNEP. Kow how does it get the i0w,00u 15 in its London account? \ 16 l Cape Fibres will get the 100,000 from Cape Industries. 17 By a voucher; VAhat does it do; make a requisition for 100,000 18 and show on the requisition what it is for? 19 A Ko. I can't give you the detail of how this wound work, bu^ 20 what it will come to is that Cape Fibres will receive 100,000 5 21 free. Caoe Industries, who will in turn, as part of tneir .* 22 accounting with South A.frica, have received m e money from 23 South Africa. 2a How will Cag'e Industries get the 100,000 from EGhu.?? * A For example, as a dividend. 26 Q As a dividend? 27 Y e s . I am. sorry: !1 A from Cape Asbestos (South Africa). Yo~ s a m - i --- } --- u w\w~ . ~ 29 ! ^ Yes 1 1 7s. r*->. i r*. it-; i ,,-*.*l-/ ,v.i_v.^-_ 1,*_ cO^je *- s-e~-v1 'wc n. 1 ^'^mn c"^^f;t ^2lOV~I-- _T*~Cct'J C ! "Z "2 2 Q, Wait a minute. L e t 's take this thing a little bit slower, 3 because you are about to lose me. Let's take a transaction, 4 where you have got the man from Tyler involved, a sale- o. 3 asbestos tc the Tyler plant; that Cape Asbestos Fiores 6 performed whatever services they performed, and they were 7 enti tied to a >A' A That is right 9 Q On this imagi nary 10 nXrl*-i,tr-\v* commissi on o ring to be paid by EGNu?, isn i 11 That is who owes 12 A Yes, tha t 's r 13 Q Now are you telli 14 Cape Fibres gets the $IOC, 000 from Cape Ir.austnes, ohe 15 parent company? Is that rignt? 16 In fact, yes. 17 Q Then that means that EGEE? owes Cane Industries Vc4"-^a Jf\ r 13 doesn't it? So they h a v e n ' t pai cl &ri"'body yet? fp'.-vC.\* C 19 getting a free ride up to now? 20 A Yes. But, you see, at the same time while all c i s is 21 bannering, Cane Fibres wil_ nave pur erased _.om -- - c. 22 from the other mining companies in South Africa, r e m a p s 23 $1 million worth of asbestos for resale. So m a n nas m b paid for. So that means SI million is going from m a n o r ,, 25 South Africa and $100,000 is coming from Scm.h i-._mc& 26 London in order to pay Cape Fibres. V'nat wo'-- a fac 27 is $900,000 would go from London to So' h Afric: ** r/T3 -T kind o: clearin ~ heus 29 'clearing house'' is :e entre A __ r- w *. : 3- 2 all that we are talking about now is getting the $100,000 from 3 EGNEP to Cape Fibres. Surely this can be done? h A If this were the only transaction involved, yes. 5 Q How would that be done? EGKEP pays who? 6 A EGNEP will pay Cape Asbestos ^South Africa). _ 7 C; $ IOC, 000? 8 A $100,000. Q Q Fcr what? 10 A rLpv.jn.s is the comni ssion which is gc -r.g t 11 ult imately to Cape Asbestos Fibres * i o. Q Why does it pay Ca pe Asbestos (Sou th Af its way 13 per formed any serv ice? 1^ A No, it perfer ns no service except that 15 cle aring hous e in South Africa. 16 r So 1.t phiJy uOat money to Cape Asbe stos 17 act s ins tant as en agent for A. As an agent? N o . CO V 19 20 22 ' 23 | Cr25 j 26 27 0. V.'h part doe s it play ? A is acting, as N:r Berr.ays says, E.s a South Africa /*>* *-V-- ;CL" *--^pY-NC ction -inc nous 0, T*L4v-/ gets the rr.cr.ey p- n sends iv on to C that what you are telling me? A y c;. but in ai.y month there may be tw ;y of these trar.sacticrs taking place one way or t y c*i^ sss2.a.Piw Pc r evernine to se send else. So i: is a; r\ Veil, in that sen. 'ally through these two clearing nou^< is receiving nor.e^ :c. - v tries, i; A K: `c ac ne nous; q Whatever term you wan t-ve o 2 of Cape Industries? *-*.**& -- 3 A It is acting on behalf cf Cape Industries? 4 Q Yes. It is going to receive money. 5 A No. Cape Industries is providing a service to Cape Fibres. 6 q I understand that. 7 A And the service that it is providing is nandling iuS e commission. It is providing a charnel through which i d s 9 money can flow to Cape Fibres. 10 Q Why can't it just go direct? 11 A It could. In fact we used to do this. We used to have 12 this money going directly. >2 0, v;hy doesn't it go direct now? Why doesn t Cape rsores s d . p d 14 t'12.1 ---- - 15 A Because it would mean hundreds of cheques going one way and 16 going the other way every month, which is an expensive 1? and laborious procedure. It saves a gooa deal o. ^_me e_i- 13 money to do it centrally. 19 q It is a bookkeeping thing? 20 A Right. 21 0 So really what it does, it keeps money from changing banes 22 and allows you to effect these transfers tnreugn dooj-j'.eet-- t, 23 entries to a large extent? 24 A Yes, I suppose you would call it bookkeeping entries, that is 25 right. 26 MR BERN A Y S : I still like the term ''clearing ncuse epera.-cn . 27 23 29 1 30 I MR BALDWIN: Oh, you do? Q Does Cape Industries receive any compensation -or - transaction, or dc they do it just as a G o d Samaritan? A No. We have already referred to this. .V Mt.1 3c 2 Well, there is this service charge that they receive from eacr. 3 one of the subsidiaries for providing services of this kind. Q. This is one of the service charges? > A Ip is one of the services for which the chf^ges arc made. 6 Q Does Cape Asbestos (South Africa) likewise make a charge? 7 A I believe that is so, hut I an not sure of tn^s. 8 Q How much is the charge? Q A I c a n 't tell you the figure. 10 r Is it a percentage? 11 A Yes. 12 Q A percentage ~f the money handled? 13 rf\ Mo. 14 Q A percentage of what? 15 It would be based upon the capital employed on tne assess 16 of the subsidiary companies. 17 In the meantime, Cape Industries has control of the money, 18 doesn't it? 19 A No. 20 Q Well, it is in 21 hAi Ch, I see w:..CL ;s nac. mme. r ' -- ~ t - w *` t has control of the money or. 22 fV, C p ' O C C vj e: r\ Now' are ail of sir.iu; 24 fashion? 25 jt-. All subsidi ari 26 r \Nela, do a^_I S' 27 procedure? p 3 No, I don't 0'S 25 T32T*COG G . ; 0 v;*- clr* a service charge, arias ac* r- >- X~ .s accountin* iat KAAC wo; - rnt ;hat vou are desi i A The records being the accounting reiaaec to ane ce;*t-1'o.x 2 service? 5 0 Yes. 4 A These would be kept in London and in Johannesburg. 5 Q, And who is in charge of the London end? 6 A Cape Industries would be ir. charge of the London ere. 7 Q What is the man's name? 8 A This would come under the direction of Mr Stevenson, uhe 9 financial director. 10 0 Mow are your dividends handles in the same waj ( 11 A Yes. 12 Q In other words, at the end of the year there is Jus.. age.-.. 13 an accounting, an adjustment of the b o o k s ' 14 A Mr Bernays says I have got to say 'clearing no-se , and u.._s 13 is what I prefer to say, yes. 16 Q At the end of the year the clearing house, then, makes an 17 adjustment of the books and deducts the dividends that is 16 o w e d ----- 19 A The dividend would be talien m ^ c acco -- ~ wo-__ 20 other payments, and a transfer o: funds mec-. 21 Q When end how are the dividends determines? 22 V -- O A. The dividends are deter...ined annually ana ce~_a..e, 23 Board of Directors. 24 Q Is that on a fiscal year? 25 A Yes. 26 v O - 'Kc - : Q How do they determine how much diviaeno snoul: 27 based on need? 23 p Tz ^s base? uten the performance of are com.----.j 29 profit can be trar.-f erred, or warat sum, i sn -- 30 1*6V'T'SC.. 56. 'V ' ` O '- * * * 7 -------------- -------------------- ------ . . - _ - 0 2 Cape Industries? 3 A Yes. 4 MR BERNAYS: Which Board are ycu talking about? 5 MR BADTWIN: Of the company that declares a dividend. 6 Q, Is that right? - 7 A Yes. 8 MR FENKA: Ultimately. I think there is some contusion here. 9 Could you repeat that? 10 A I air: sorry, perhaps I misunderstood the question. 11 k : BERMAYS: Which Board are you talking about, please, because 12 I think the witness is confused on that? 15 MR Ba l d w i n : I was J'>cr^ sayi ng: We are getting dour: to O-.! p c m 14 of how you dete rmine the civ idends. ' \ u o -to 15 A Yes. 16 MR SERRAR5 : V.Thc do you mean "by C ~ 17 MR BALDV:iK : Cape Asbes cos Indu stries. 16 MR BERNAYS : Cape Indus' 0c 19 MR 3ALDWIN: Cape Indus tries I keep wanting to stick Asbestos 20 in +*V\ > 6 . 21 r\ u follow m -? r Yes, I do. Of cour __ i. ^ y.r,- -n^r uvat -- Cant Industries 25 f=-v- 1^ declare a civ idenc. 24 Q What I me an is the dividends that are paid to Cape md-Sor_es. 25 ; The ci"idercs are declared by tne roarcs of u_rec^ors 26 the subsidiary comp an ies . 27 Preci sely. Tra t is the -way I had understood you. 23 , i arr. sorry; I di dr. 't make that clear. 2 9 -"s Ttuu is what I r.aa understood; and these Boards c-f Directors x ^ p-~e 77S-0no 0 , . , ,T,, *-V-v tect le wno occupy posi.iw..s v,_w.. ~'nAy c"'1'A-C- '1 A Not entirely, no. 2 Q Can you name me a Board of any subsidiary that is not 3 controlled or does not have the majority of its members, on it 4 that an. people of Cape Industries? Can you name me one? 5 A I would have to go through all the Boards in detail to so this. 6 q L e t 's do that. Sit there and think and see if you can name me 7 one Board of a subsidiary that is not made up by a majority 8 of directors who are otherwise connected with Cape Industries. 9 A Perhaps we are saying the same thing, but wnen you say 10 "directors who are not connected with Cape ii- .stries .... 11 Q Or any of its subsidiaries. 12 A I see what you mean. No, all of our subsidiary .cards 13 have a preponderan.ee of either directors of Cape _nciSi-r.ec 14 or full-time employees of the subsidiary concerned; but not 15 entirely. s-JC Q Name me one that hes a majority of people who are net ---- 17 A I c a n 't. 16 Q There is none, is there? 19 A No. Thi s was not quite Vsp question L/..c.t you asked me befo: 20 0 To get to the point simp -y, none cf your Board,3 are compose 21 of a major cf people who 3.rS no o \J^i.- rwise associated wi -P H 22 Cape Industries? 23 A That is true. 24 Q And the majority, of course, controls, coesr. t it? 25 A Yes. 26 q So then if Cape Industries or its people compose a r.ajori 27 the Boards they compose control cf whether dividends are 23 and now they are paid and when they will be psic: ict. t 29 30 4; for moment., you Ere trying to reach towards here, Mr Baldwin but let me make this quite clear. If you take, for example, the Board of Cape Asbestos (Couth Africa), on that Board there are I te lieve three < Q xiclu 12 ri ght. A There are iour sf' *'ive peeco;ple who are not directors of Cape Incustr ies tCtt* who, it is ' xt, are employees of one or other South A J"`v* oar. compan ies i ;re is also one director vine is what ycu w ould call an oat ie director who is not involved ir. ary way wit h any of the ipe companies. That is a typical arrange men U ACr airy of the cards of the subsidiary companies Was that the question you were asking? Does that answer it? Q I think it does. In other words, what you are telling me is using that company as an example, you have only one person on tie Board of how many? A I c a n 't rememb v> exactly how many there are Q iv". v e or thir te C .'T', A Someth -*-> O. kha t order. Q Don 't we have it v,written down somewhere abo ut the Board of Cape Asbestos !v^ootth Africa)? ME KAYE: I have go t nine names. A Cf tho 20 T V0li eve three are executive A *"ec tors of Cape Twr4'iuuOr rice. Is that right? MR K A Y E : T *,*~.iCd v7c. Hi gram, Gaze an d Doughert y A no, is not a direct or. Dough -y > isn *t . r MR K A Y E : Doughty I beg your p ardor. I meat.*i. Doug:re v . n Higham Gate an d Doughty are directors of r*-a.pe I--A^yc ~02 " c: ^ y w \`,T ^ who is nc any .t>e comoanies. ' V, 2 O>s , ~ r . - r , i2 i 5 ! 4 5 6 7 dividend of Cape (Souch Africa), you have one roar, who is no-. otherwise connected? A That is correct; hut the reason I was MR SZRh'AYS: Now wait a minute. Excus me. The question is ambiguous. Not otherwise connected with what? . BALDWIN: Cape Industries or one of its subs*:.-a. .e s . ^ ~ -s MR 8 9 , 10 simple. BZrNAv : There are three directors, or four, wr.-t.ever - ^ MR who are also directsrs of Cape Industries; the others are not. 11 MP. BALDWIN: My question is this: Out of the n.xhe d-rec^. s 12 C-pe Asbestos (South Africa), whicn you nave usee as a 13 14 15 I 16 17 I i 15 19 20 I 21 I company, you have one person who is not directly connected to Cape Industries or one of its subs-di curd.e- . ty That is true. That was not the question you ashed me origms_l. Weil, I am asking it nuw, so there won t. be -- Q s Tj_oS L/llC.w ~-u-- ~>V41ik-/9. ^ ,.-- m -vo r* r'^' I am worry; is what right? I was Just laurr...^ -- -- r- That out of the nine people on that Boars you nave or._j o..e that is not connected in one way or ano^.ner < ^ C-*.- A Who is not either an executive arrester c* 22 |i 23 i 24 ' 25 26 | i 27 i j 23 an employee of one of the subsidiary companies. That -S -- e i-r.>C.^_x^ , .. ' *n c ^ Q. All right; ana an employee oj. m & u 1 -b -- . .. - u- <_*- * u*-r. Isn't t.nat true? corr.Dar.y ^ vTor k s ***-'** ^ ^ YOU rnear. vho will :-.irc and lire A orrlcyees of Cap- Asbeaoca (Souib Africa)' Q Yes. r. Well, the managers would be hired sy tne 30 of the Board. do V,' '! - c* r; r g as 6 - -> I* - - 2 ! 3 4 se; 6 7 6 9 10 11 < 1 c". 13 14 15 16 which is & matter to go through the clearing house or the procedure of Cape Industries, these are the people that are going to vote on it? ` (Off the record discussion) The people that are going to vote on that dividend are _ v: Kir MeKeurtan, who is Chairman of the Board of what company? A Cape Asbestos (South Africa). C. What position does he held with Cape Industries.' A He is Chairman of the Board. He has no otner r e s p o n s i b - l x ^ r*, Of what? A Of Cape Asoestos (South Africa). Q Does he work for any other company? A I don't know. Q You are going to have Nr Higham, who we know is Managing Director of Cape Industries? 17 A That's right IB Q You are going to have Mr Dougherty, wno is - 19 A He is Managing Director of Cape Asbestos (South Airica). 20 Q What capacity does ha have with Cape Industries or one of its C`~\vt Ci^c Ji 03*P c A As I ha-e Just said, he is Managing Director of Cape Asbestos 3 (South Africa). 2~ 0 He is also on the Board, isn't he? 25 MP K A Y E : That is Doughty, not Dougherty. 26 There are two oeople; one is Dougr.ty arid ots _s 27 Dougherty. 28 K? BALDWIN: Doer Dougherty have any other position witn any c- 29 the Cape companies? h *z ~^ ill':', ' ST. i 2 3 4 ac 6 7 8 Q 10 11 12 of the mining companies. Q And Mr O'Connor, who is technical director to EGNEP? A Yes. And you have Mr Frost, who is industrial manager: Q A Yes, that is right. Q What other companies is he with? A I believe he is Managing Director cf the two i n u s t o n a l companies. He may be General Manager, but I relieve ne is Managing Director. You have Km Wilson, who is your financial man c.. tne i=oard of Q Cope Industries? 13 A That is right, yes. 14 Q And you have Mr Reunert, who is an outsider? 15 A He is an outside director. the 16 Q, And you have yourself and Kr r-ougherty, ho is t i cr- 17 Board of Cape Industries? 13 ! I 19 20 I 21 I A That is right. Those are the peopie tnat are gw_n& Q A That is correct. ae^e----- h r FENNA: Wilscr: is not or. the 3oc.ro. of Cape j..^-s.. ivia no? - 22 i 23 24 h r 0 'C (TINGE: Ke didn't say he was. HR FENNA: Yes, he did. It is on she re core. M R KAYE: but i-Vp*Yes, you did oust say Wilson was or. tne ooc-u, 25 is wrong. 26 27 | | 25 I 29 A I am sorry. j.'r 3ALDV'~N* I stand corrected. Mr w.j.son j-" Boa >nn "* of Cape Industries. Does he occupy any cual position W _Lu any of the other companies? 30 i L ii - V ' ~ - - J ; - 2 3 a 5 6 r~. , f 6 9 10 11 12 13 1A 15 16 1? 15 ii 19 20 21 22 --! i 24 !! ^ " 26 ! j 1 2" 22 1 -~ : 2 recall. Q He is on EGNEP, isn't h*? He is also on the Board and financial director of EGNEP? ' A That may be r.o. r\ When they vote this dividend, do they take into consideration any communication from Cape Industries with reference to how much it should be or should not be from the standpoint o"f taxec ? A Not that I am aware of . O Is there any liaison between Cape Industr-es and t m s Board her-. when they vote*; A To the extent that there are three members of m e Board Ox Cape Industries. Q Novr what companies are you on the Board of Directors of? r I am on the Board of Cape Industries, I am on the Board of Small ti Parkis Limited, Cate Asbestos n b r e s , Cape r>^a_ Panels, Cape Asbestos (South Africa'. Q. North American? A North American Asbestos Corporation. Those are ? -1 tnat * recall at the moment. Q rrrv~rt *^ c -r~*7 -r. That sounds right. r VJhen does the Board of North American Asbestos Corporation meet? A Quarterly, as I recall. VA.ere does it meet? Q r C m cage. - Do you go there each ouarter? t No. 2 meeting there? 3 A Last November or thereabouts. Perhaps it was December. 4 q How many would you make a year? 3 A One or two. 6 q Cape Asbestos (South Africa). How often does it meet? _ 7 A Quarterly. 8 Q And were you present at the last meeting of that'; 9 A No. ir q How long has it been since you have been there? ii A I was there April, or was it August: Can I say sometime 12 last year, in the first half cf last year? I can t remembe: 13 now whether it was April or Aug. 14 Q. Do you make that meeting once e 15 A I d o n 't have a specific time fo 16 Q, What would you average? 17 A Average once or twice a year in 15 Q Cape Boards and Panels? 19 l Forgive mej wnat is tne o_u6StuO... 20 0 When is the last time you were at a meeting cf tne ^oard o. 21 Directors of Cape 3oards and Panels? 22 A Two months ago. 25 Q How often does it meet? 24 A Every two months. 25 Q Do you go -here each two itenths? 26 A Yes. Not infallibly, but usually I am presen- c-u 27 meeting. 25 Q. That is a new company geo ting off the gronro, isn 29 A Yes. 2 A Also every two months. 3 Q Do you make that one every two months? 4 A Yes. 5 Q And Small & Parkes? 6 A Yes, every two months. 7 Q And Cape Industries? 8 A Yes. 9 Q What does Small & Parkes de? 1C A I have missed one out: Cape Insulation. That is one I remember 11 0, Small & Parkes? 12 A It manufactures friction materials. 13 Q How often does Cape Industries meet? 14 A Every month, 13 Q Where? In London? 16 A Ir. London. 17 Q And you control those monthly? 15 A Yes. 19 Q Getting bad: to this so-called clearing house, is there one 20 clearing house, or is there one above another, or are there . I two on equal footing? 22 A I d o n 't think the question of footing arises, it is a 23 geographical situation. 24 Q The London clearing house is for the Englisr. comp an ios? 25 A It deals with the English end, and the Johannesourg clearing 26 house deals with the South African: end. 27 Does the North American Asbestos Corporation go tnrougr ^ne 2B same clearing house? 2 ^ A T.Tq v ; V 3 - 2 Ne. 3 What you are doing is, to keep from having a constar. 4 money between the countries, you have one place to have an 3 accounting for all of these various transactions involving 6 inter-company accounting, dividend and service charges.. 7 A Yes, and payment for supplies. 8 Q Do you h ave central purchasing, central payaient for supplies? 9 a M No, only an advisory service. 10 r\ v How does that function? 11 A A direct nr on the Cape Insulation Board has responsibility for 12 answering for purchasing, in the same sense that - nave 13 responsibility for scientific questions. 14 Q But you d o n 't purchase centrally? 15 A No. 16 /S Now is there a safety department cf EGNZ? as suoh? 17 A~i I c a n 't answer that for certain. 18 Is there a safety department or corresponding v'tmert for 19 CASA?? 20 nA Obviously there is great concern arcut saiety ir. outh Africa, 21 but exactly how the responsibility is allocate Z j - can 11 answe 22 m rQ \r-o Q Well, aren't you on the Board cf Directors c: 23 A Yes, I am. ,, Q Can you tell me whether or not your company r.as a safe tv 25 department? 26 rA. You embarrass me, because I ought to know arc I d::r "t kno w . 27 0. Is there a safety department in Cape Fibres? 28 A we have a direc* or 'who is designated as using res:N V- C " Z - - - - -S,'u^--V-, 29 safety questions. jr*> 46. and employees under him who have no responsibility except 3r that of safety? 4 A Not in Cape Fibres. - c n Do you in ar.y of your companies? c 6 A Yes. ' 7 Q, Which ones? 8 A We have a safety officer, an officer responsible for safety, Q I believe in all of the operating companies in the United 10 Kingdom. 11 Q And do you have a person whose sole duty is tnat of safety; 12 with no other obligations, in each of tne companies? 15 I can't answer this positively. I ani not suf:,,cienolj aware 14 of exactly how the companies are organised, but eacn company 15 has by lav; now to have someone responsible for s a . e w - * IO* C When did this law take effect? 17 A Relatively recently., within the last twelve mcntr.s. 18 A And before that did you have such a person or position.' 0 19 There were oecple to whom s p e c m c sale op duties wn-^ 20 assigned, but I cannot give you the details of tnese. 21 You are a scientist, and you have studied asbestos, yo- s a ^ , 22 since the l$A 0 's? 25 v. 24 Q, And you have become aware that asbestos m various ms is rv0> 25 dangerous to the human health, have you not? 0 A Yes. Q When did you first be rware of that? P A A p. day I was employe 29 *<. n 07/ nja v ""j. *becor.e s.vr V -i *- 50 99 , 2 precautions had to be taken in handling asbestos. 3 q what were the dangers that you were advised of? 4 A The dangers associated with breathing asbestos dus^. 3 Q, What were you told that it would cause? 6 pL I can't remember now. it is a long t_n,e ago. . t Q Well, dc you know now what it will cause: 8 A Yes. 9 Q What will it cause? 1C A Breathing asbestos dust oar. -ause asbestos-s. 11 q Can it cause mesothelioma? 12 A Yes. 13 q When did you acquire this knowlecge? m e d&> m 1- -c=-rr,e m 14 work, with the company? sards in breathing 15 A I acquired the knowledge that there were ha 16 asbestos, and I believe through subsequent enquiry I iound out time. Ky knowledge 17 about asbestosis within a relatively snort IB cf mesothelioma was obviously derived at a much later sate. :he fact that asbest 19 Q When did you first become a c q u a m t e o v,iU. - 20 could cause mesothelioma? 21 A Somewhere around 19oC. 22 C Did you keep abreast of the -iteraturc 23 A Y-2 # 24 'Wasn't there a writing before 19^0 sugges- ing this? 25 A As I recall, not very much before, and or. writing was cf a 26 tentative nature. 27 n Asbestosis is a disease of tr.e i-ng. 23 A Vqc t 29 O 30 ie s . 2 A Yes. 3 Q There is no known treatment for it? 4 A There is no knovm treatment. I say it is irreversible.; - 5 agreed when you said it is irreversible. Many authorities 6 believe that removal from exposure to asbestos at a very earl} r? soage can result in cessation of the progressive nature of the 8 disease. is 9 If you are removed 10 A That is cor rect. - 11 Q, What is early enoug 12 Kr I can 't be specific 13 At a very esrly stare. 14 Q, V,rhat is a ve: t 'wCr- 13 A Well, I f'i- I Q is a io question of degree. 17 Q And if it is m 15 A n t ^ *4 is correc 19 20 21 22 23 24 r- 26 2? 25 29 . ! ;0 When did you f was this serie as we have just Ge sendee o I acquired this kr.cv,ledge slowly over -he ,e^rs. *-.*" H U-. -- w*.< question was "this serious". In other words, you are saying that it was an irreversible and terminal conoiticn. Q When did you first become aware of that? r I became ^ s' v*'*--V * * n e > V7 V0rS 0: asscoiat ion with asbestos. S'. Would yc o not describe that as a serious condition? rr\ w.., j >R";- 2 knowledge that asbestosis could be progressive, irreversible 3 and terminal in your early years? 4 A Yes, that is true. - 5 Q That would be in the 1950's, oertainiy? 6 A Yes. ' 7 Q, With your position with Cape Industries you nave authority 8 to recommend that these companies create \arioso depar^men^s 9 or divisions that you are associated with, don t you? 10 A I have power to make recommendations, yes, that is true. 11 0 I get the feeling that you are the scientific c^rector cf ail 12 of the subsidiaries :his rirjr.t? 13 A Those that I have mentioned. I am using "director m the * ! *>-r English sense. In other words, I am a member of the Board, 15 as you say, "director". 16 Q, No, I am talking about: you are the man in tne corporate se.-u. 17 for these companies that has the expertise m science? 16 A I answer to the Cape Industries Board < 19 questions, yes. 20 Q As it affects any of its subsidiaries? 21 A As it affects any of its operations, s' 22 have you. 2; (Off the record i^SCIcssicr ' 2^ Q Dr. Gaze, where we we re was that you are ~ IT--2 ITT TH6 2? cor porate set-up dr.3d has th e sc:certifie knowledge? 26 A Yes. 27 Q So naturally you are looked to with scientif .c orosiem.s tr. 2 E cron ut in any of the subsiui: 29 ! 1 Vw/ U- *w W w . am l o o n e i 30 K - * * r I - 2 companies are largely self-contained m . these questions. 3 When I say 'these questions", I mean scientific masters 4 where they are concerned with scientific matters. . 5 C Are your colleagues on the Board of Cape Industries conscious 6 of safety matters" . 7 A Yes. 6 r An c are they desirous of providing the safest working 9 conditions 10 A Yes. 11 And are th 12 any danger 15 A Yes . 14 r>, They are quick to take whatever steps are necessa ry to see 15 that the safest course is followed in ycur corpor ate set-up 15 A Yes. 1? 's This would include the activities cf your sussici aries? 18 A V0s 19 r Have you ever suggested as a member of tr.at Boaro ^o a.^ 20 of your colleag-ues that you set-up cr recommend that any o: 21 your subsidiaries, specifically your mining companies, sev 22 up any safety standards tc be followed? 25 A This would normally happen at Board level at tne subsidiary 24 companies. 25 26 27 ' jI 2 3 29 ' 50 You leave it to the subsidiaries? A When you say "you", do you mean I personally? C Cape Industries. A Cate Industries would leave this essentially to the subsidiaries, who have a direct responsibility i question.. . C " 2 dangerous situation in EGNEP, for example, to advise them 3 of that? 4 A Y e s . To advise...? - 5 Q EGNEP. 6 A I wou l d n 't advise EGNEP unless it were a matter of tremendous 7 urgency. I would bring this to the attention of my couieagnes 8 on the Board of Cape Asbestos (South Africa). 9 ^or what purpose? 10 A This would be one reason why I woul^d be appointee to tne Boara, 11 Q Wnat would you hope that they would do? Why wouio you teul 12 them about it? 13 I would tell them about it because I was concerned about 14 a hypothetical safety situation. 15 Q Would you tell them about it in an effort to get it corrected/ 16 A Of course. 17 Q Otherwise you would be wasting your treatr? 18 'v? rv*-"tV 19 Q You w ou 1a tell 20 would take wnat r r. - -- v c. c '.pO 21 jAn Yes; ana 1 wou W i 22 taken the neces 25 Q Suppo se th ey fa c-- A Then I wcu Id ra 'red vour recco.nen aatio ; -f the Board, and i O would do ao ver 2c Q And y c^tinue to do so 'until it was 27 A That is sc , yes 28 Q 29 1 i i 30 K ow d b r'-'J O , as feel S' exist in r r -- - r.ave r---ov>_~o*.p_*P- r' for exampl-, the 'c o or.a / \ u 2 A This has never occurred. To my memory, i have never spec .la leal, 3 advised the Board of Cape Industries of a safety queswion, 4 and I would normally only expect to do this if I was not c able tr obtain satisfaction in my capacity as a director of 6 the subsidiary company concerned. . 7 q But you would if you could? 8 A We are getting a little hypothetical here. 9 Q. I am just trying t o --- 10 A What is behind your question? 11 Q, Another question. I am asking you if you feej. e.ny se.:se 12 of urgency or duty as a member of tne 3oard o. Cape -.ndusx.ie^ 13 to see that your subsidiary companies are asvised Ox 14 dangerous conditions that you have knowledge of. 15 A Yes. I find it difficult to answer that particular question 16 precisely. The fact of the matter is I am very conscious 17. of safety questions. I regard it as being my duty to take IS these up at Board level in the companies on which I serve; 19 and it is true to say (I will go along witn you o.. w .2 20 speculation) if I was not satisfied with wna^ had bee.: done, 21 1 would report this to my colleagues on the Cape _ n a u s t n e s 22 Board at Board level. 23 q, And what would be the reason for doing that? 24 A Again, hypothetically, if I were not acue t-o achieve 25 satisfaction at the level at which I would normally operate 26 in these circumstances. 27 Q You would do it with the hope that you would achieve sa.xS-sc. 23 A This is hypothetical. The fact is, Mr Baldwin, when a safety 29 question comes up, it is not a question of hope; it .s a 50 Question of determination: an >s ex: ^essed with the p: 2 If you did not get satisfaction, you might go to the Board 3 of the company involved, and you say you would go to the Board 4 of the parent company. Why would you go to this Board? 5 This ir a very hypothetical situation that you a: e asl._..g me 6 to describe, frankly. It is something that has never arisen. 7 Now answer my question. 8 Well, I suppose because as the principal sharenoloers they ha\e o the ultimate authority. That was the arswe: you wanted me to 10 give, w a s n 't iti That is the truth. 11 Q It is g ~-od enough 1 it is the true one. 1 d. A That is the truth, 13 Q So what you tre say 14 es carried out through goi r.g to the Board of the 15 company if necessary becau se you know they have the 15 ty to have your directions carried out V.- J c *- p o '* q 2. 11 17 *"r? ^ r\n ^ is why you would, go to them? 18 A Yes. 19 C- In other words, it is the u. timate way t orcbler. 20 handled if all else failed? 21 nr If all else failed, that woul d be true. . .. i 22 rs Whatever the vehicle, you do have a vehi 23 to see that safety practices are fcllowe *>*+1 companies? 26 27 28 ' ' A *1^s * n And yet do feel a sense of dtt-t-t -- ^ m o o ~ o' :Ej" z. -,r>acti are carried cut by your subs:.claries as a memo er of the ooarc. of Oate Industries, the parent company? , \* cr rv *' 2 aware of safety practices? 5 A Yes. 4 0 And so it is within your wherewithal to see that these. 5 safety practices are followed and carried out m your various 6 companies? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Now did you make any effort, with this knci ledge uta^ JOu .xad 9 of asbestos, to see that any precaution was taken for the people 1C who would be expected to work around asbestos? 11 A Yes. 12 Q What did you do? 13 A Since I have been concerned with tnese questions, * have 14 satisfied myself that the subsidiary companies who are using 15 asbestos are using it in conformity with the law and with what 16 I regard as being safe p:actices. 17 Q You have seen that what you regard as safe practices nave beer. 18 carried out in your SUDSi 19 r~ft. That is s c . 20 Q And you, of course, have 21 channels 9 22 A By virtue of my presence on the .board of the subsidiary 23 company. 24 Q And have you male any effort, with this knowledge, to v.ur.. 25 or advise the people whc > t p ' a 1 26 from your companies zW-n fi-t. tw.he noten: 27 A I have or. occasions done 28 Q When? 29 A I can t recall speci fic V.4C ' unis napper.; 30 r ene L v . 2 be expected to purchase asbestos that it mghw be dange* 3 those working on it. 4 A I can't recall specific occasions. . 5 q What is the earliest that you remember advising anyone? 6 A This seldom arises. 7 Q Then are you telling me that ycu do no^ 6 A No. I can remember conversations, tut i can t p- - ^ `lfcme 9 them or put a year to tnem. 10 Q Would you say the 1960's; 1970's; could you give us a aecace 11 A Yes. I am trying to answer your question, but my memory 12 here is --- 0 r: 13 14 15 t 16 17 * 5 19 20 Q Don't let me rush A My memory here is difficult, and your questions are somewhat difficult. You frame it in rather a difficult way. MR BERKAYS: Are you referring to ever at any time, or m connection with ? ittsburgh Corning, or is it ;,ust a broa- -- HR BALDWIN: Any tim e, anybody. rA\ I do recall warr.ir.g, or talking to, the directors of Pittsburgh Comir ~ t'^is connection. I mean tn_s ma,, -e 21 in your mind in tnis particuior case. 22 Q u --C. 23 ' A Yes. 24 Q When was that? 25 I have discussed this with them on a number of occasions. A 26 Q r-i-^0 f1^0t? d A rpv,0 time 1 met them. 25 *P--Z>i , 30 When was that? .r. r'dn _ r~ pc. V : v j T i r. A 2 5 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 ; ! 30 I ! a purchaser or prospective purchaser of your asbestos that it was potentially dangerous? A T h a t 's right. What I would have said to their: is that . precautions had to be taken in its use. Q And you did this with the full knowledge that you tcid .me that you had earlier, back in the 1 9 5 '0 's, tnat it could cause asbestosis? A That is sc. Q Which you have characterised as a disease than can be progressive, irreversible and terminal? A That is right; with the small qualification that i made in that connection. r< But in any event when you talked to this prospective purchase in i960 you had in your mind at least that dangerous characteristic of asbestos? A Yes. C Ar.d you would agree with me that that is a serious danger? A Yes. Q A gravely serious danger, isn t it? A We are discussing words now on rather a serious suojec^. Q I knew. A It is a very serious situation, yes; a very serious canter. Q You would characterize it as very serious danger? A Vcc t ro'v And you wanted it to be made known to these peotxe at ?.C.? A Yes. n And that was in the year 190! that you can remember was first time that you discussed this? r\ With Pittsburgn Corning. -.0 V 2 to? 3 A Yes, I can. 4 Q Who were they? - A I discussed this with Mr Russell Brittingham, Mr Prank Master., 6 Mr Robert Buckley, Or. D Eustacio. . 7 Q Is that all? 8 A No, one more: Carl Baumler. 9 C Where was this meeting? 10 A In Pittsburgh. 11 Q, What was the occasion for it? 12 A The occasion was the first interest that Pittsburgh had to lib manufacture Unibestos. 14 Q What is f V|r- r wilC. ^ ^5 A It is a high nperature insulating material which is made from 16 Amocite asbestos, bonded with sodium ss_icate. 17 Q. What ctd you tell them? 16 A Tn-y asked me to tell them generally what was involves an tne 19 5f Unibestos and the technical characteristics 20 of the product. They asked me to give them a little 21 dissertation or. thus cuestion. 22 Q And what did you tell them? A I can't remember exactly. 24 lr-L In substance? 25 A *T` T told them hov; the material was mace, wnat tne 26 raw materials ar e or were, what precautions had to be taken 27 in the handling of t h r a w materials and what were tne 26 of the end product. PC What company were you representing when you met v.otr. tnest 50 pe cole ? 2 chief scientist of Cape Industries, and I was also a director 3 of Cape Fibres. 4 Q You were talking to then: in your capacity as chief sci-er.tist 3 for what is now Cape Industries? 6 A What is now Cape Industries. I wouldn't say exactly which hat 7 I had cn at the time, but I had authority in both of those 8 connections. 9 Q One or both? 10 A In both of those connections. 11 7 Cape Fibres was in the business of selling? 12 A But not in the United States. They had a general marketing 1? advisory capacity. Q, So Cape Fibres as such would receive no benefit from this 15 transaction in the United States? 18 A Oh, yes. It would receive on the sales. 17 Q I see. That is when P.C. was beginning to buy this material? 15 A They h a d n 't considered buying it at that stage. .-.s - tc_c 19 you Just now, this was their first interest in the process 20 and in the product. 21 Q But in making the product they would require them mo purcnase 22 asbestos in the raw form from you, or someone? 23 A m o m someone. 24 0 And hopefully you? 25 rr. Y e s . 26 r'C\ So tha - -s wr.j ;>ou were there kind of ir. your capacity as a 27 safety director of Cape Industries and generally promoting C7. o one of your prod ucts whi ch would be to the oettermer. ,, --- 29 Kc. You said ''safety director" . 30 Isn't that what you said? 2 Q I am, sorry. Chief scientist cf Cape Industries? 3 A Yes. 4 Q To explain to then, the hazards of asbestos? - 5 A That was included in one of the things that i expit-^ed. And at least one of the hats that you had or. was your hopes Q 7 that they would buy asbestos frcr your EECEP corporation? 8 9 10 11 12 13 ;i 14 13 A Yes. Q So you were representing the Board of Cap? ^nd^s-rries in the capacity at least, w e r e n 't you? Yo u had o4V*-at n 4. V or.r. A I wouldn 't have said so, no. I wen n the re as a C-.0 ier.tisn, as the ierson qualified and ecul ppe d wit h the k1 i r-si. 4/ T* le age to pass or: no them, that they required on a tec rutical question. Q You unde rtook to advise them on a teehni cal que soi or your C.pCl as director of Cape In oust ries? 16 A voc 17 Q Were you TUidpii'-'i -r'"h-o fhi c;7* 1 A In was part cf my job, and I re cei'e n.y sa!iary rv-, om Cap e 19 Industri.as for doing nhat joo. _n sense I w as pai d for 20 Q 'Were you on a salary from Cape T*V-, rA'istri(5S as wh an is the j 21 , A Chief scientist. 2 i i 23 ; 24 Q Do you still remain nr.au? Yes. A y a y I ask what your salary is for being cr.1er sol er w- - " t? 'c/ 25 r/n 15,000 c1t VvV ^ ^~ 26 And how long have you had this - e f. V n *- 1 ,, ^ J- ? c. 27 ' ! 2B 1 2 - 30 r. Chief s C "" 4- ^ *3 s0 ? n "l 6 3 . T p, i ^ V. ^ -T V r- -- * +CL w *- -* *- 1 V -- V*> O' -- L/ . 4, ^ w - W - T v;as on - 1 - A Boa r o . You p veo C y 4; f:re; and I couiin 3 re ? rem- er v; - n w= c 5. !< Cv 2 n So you have been chief scientist and on the payroll of Cape 3 Inaustries since the 1 9 5 0 's in that capacity? 4 Yes. 3 hvw my question was: You told us that you were talking to 6 Pittsburgh C o m i n g as chief scientist for Cape industries. 7 That w e b at least one of your hats? 8 A That was one of my hats. o Q Another hat was that you were on the Board of Cape Asbestos 10 Fibres? 11 A That is to. 12 Q. And if you were to sell asbestos they would receive a 13 commission. So that was another hat you were v,'earing? 14 Yes. 13 The inducement there being that it would ado to the 16 profitability of a company that you were on the Board o . : 17 Yes. 16 And, of course, still another collateral benefit would oe t: 19 20 2^ 22 ! 25 ! they bought asbestos from your EGNEP corporation, - ^ wo~ia make a profit and could pay a dividend to the company conce. n e e And the stcckhold ers would benefit. r\ SO t -1 er 1 Ccl V . ^4. 11d V'p*-W *-Vn?** 1 v '* we capacity as direc ter for Cape incustr ies The renerai welfare of that company was to the benefit of it ana to you to see 25 that o.sbestos was sold? 26 A Yes. I was concerned as a direc r of Cate litres. Cape 27 Fibres had a responsibility to p: mote the sale of aVc c ^S 23 throughout the world. 29 That was the veu were wear 30 Yes. 63 V72 3 4 5 6 7 e Q 10 11 12 asbestos EGNEP would make a profit, which would L*J. * 1 enable it to pay a dividend to Cape Industries, which was a company that you were on the Board of and keenly aware of? A Yes. I didr. 't have it m mire at the time, but nc-rertheless what you say is true. Q So that is still another hat o r an other indw. jemen u for you to be in Pit tsburgh, another reaso n you were the re' A VVc # Y ou ar e over-emphasizing the si gnif ica:ice cf it Q, P OS ziblv. K cw, my cyuestion wa s earliert Were v ou r-iC this service that you rendered to Pittsburgh Ccrn.ng by Pitt sburgh Ccming? 13 "4 15 16 i 17 i * r> 1 ! ci\J 21 3 2u 26 A Nc. n I asked you that question earl ier, and you said yo-u drev; your salary, and we got off on the t . A I ar sorry; I didn't realize uV*.Ci**' you asked me wh ether I ha been paic by Pittsburgh Cornin * Did you me an tha *.r dr.11 rr.uke 't clear. 1 wan tea to knew; --\UA 4-V ev truv you ^ a Di ci ,, v/UU4U. gh Corning pay me `oeti;onally any _v --**o -V- j_ c *> No, Or any of your ronpanies? rAi No. Q This was simply a service vcu oroviced tc a prospective customer? That is ngr.t. Q In the hc.cs th wou. usiuess with one of your cc"tames ' A ghat :s r_v.m . v as -- v- r' -- p. n c L.^ _,,_ -- . o ^ n y, j - ^ sci^r.tisT O in . ^ o-, wfc->k - * v w v *-* j' 2 A Yes. 3 Q At that time did you advise them that asbestos could cause 4 asbestcsis to those people? c A Among other things, I told them' that. 6 0 Did you advise them that it could cause that to people who 7 warned around it? 8 A Yes. 9 C Did you advise them that the sacks and containers cf the 10 asbestos contained no labels or warnings? 11 K g , there was no warning on the sa.-cs. 12 Did you tell Pittsburgh Corning that there was nc warning? 13 A I didn't say that specifically as 1 recall, bun _ dor ^ 14 recall the details of the conversation. 15 r> There were nc warnings, were there? 16 A There were no warnings on the sacks. 17 Q Did "cu ever in any of your capacities with tncse companies 16 seek to have a warning put on these sacks? 19 A No. 20 It was never done unoil the Government regulation was 21 brought in? 22 23 Q asbestcsis is concerned, you make no distinction 24 h e types of asbestos, do ycu, in your mind, as to 25 writ : .angerous an d what is not tt_ W wrw~0. 26 No. 27 Q In cti words, hree trinciti 2B Croci. t e an o sotile? 2? ese can GS.Use asbe 30 V- - - i fi i t 2 cause asbestosis? 3 A No. 4 Q And have never advocated that? - 5 A Nc. 6 T' As far as advising people of these dangers and this disease hat V, 7 you characterized a moment ago as ''this very serious proble 8 that would apply to Amocite asbestos? 9 A Yes. 1 ^ Q lac yoe ever go to ?.C. again in your capacity as scier.tifi 11 director? 12 A Yes. "$ <ov I am going to write it down, "Chief scientist . Dio you ever go to F.C. again in your capacity as c m e f scientist "5 for Cape Industries? 16 A Yes, I did. 1? A V'her. was this? 12 I went approximately every yea-. I r.ay have missed one or r two years, but I w-.-nt every year. 2C C: And each time would you advise them of these cancers? 21 A *"> "v C .C . 23 I would discuss the hazards cf asbestos with, m a t , ic S * You and vour no role in your organization knew -.u..-- wel_ the hazards of asbestos by "his time? 2~ 25 \ 26 r. V.'e knew that precautions had to be taken when asDsstcs it handle d. And this knowledge that you had of the dancers of asbestos 27 j you have described ureviously was available to one pecpie P Ci _ -_ - * -- J \ Z i-- SJ + . y J w 7- i S' ' I j r2 middle 1950's on down to nowT? 3 A Yes. 4 Q So it is not a case of saying that EGNEP was not advised uc of the potential dangers of asbestos? 6 A Nc. 7 q The principal officers and managers of EGNEP sc all times 8 from the middle 1 9 5 ? 's until right now have known of this 9 very serious problem of asbestosis which was caused by the 10 very type of asbestos they were mining and selling? 11 A Yes. 12 Q So you don't mean to imply or even suggest that there was 13 a lack of knowledge or. the part of EGNEP of any dangerous 14 potentiality of asbestos? 15 A Ko. /IrC Q Your position is that you met 'ith Pittsburgh Corning 17 D f*----- in lcC? 16 A 1961. 19 Q. And you met, you think, probably yearly after tnat? 20 A Yes. 21 Q, And d i s c u s s e d --- 22 A Among other things, this question. 23 Q, Fix your mind, if you will, back to 19 6 1 and tel^ me wr.at 24 positions you held in the Cape Industries. Yrou were on tk< 25 Board of Cape Industries? 26 A 'Which Boards I was on, do you mean, in l^tl? 2? Q Yes. 2. A I was on the Board of Cape Industries, Cape Insulation, vni she South African companies as -a -oarcs .r**7r'-> I 67 2 that time. 3 Q Anyway, you were closely associated with these South African 4 companies during this period of time? ' 5 A This was the beginning. When I went on to the Oafe Industries 6 Board was the beginning of my association with South Africa. 7 0 So you have been familiar with them since thar time? e A Yec. t' o Q. Tc now? 10 A Yes. 11 Q And you went on that Board when, you tell me? 12 A Which Board? 12 r 'cv Cape Ir:dustries. 14 rt Cape In dustries Board, I9SI. 15 Q Who told you to go to Pittsburgh? 16 A No-one told me to go. If a answer the question why did - g o , 1? will th at be satisfactory? 18 Q Yes. 19 A I went tc North American Asbestos Corporation for a Board flWt 20 meeting or at the time of a Board meeting. Although I don 't 21 think I was actually on the Beard, I attended the Board meeting. 22 V/, Why did you do that? 23 A I c a n 't rertember. Perhaps I didn't. Perhaps it is not true. 2~ I went to NAAC for some r fasor. that I am a little vague about. 25 While I was there, the President, whose name was Hebert Cryor, 26 U it J.%-A. nie that he rad had a visit from someone from rittsbur 27 rrr.ing (I think it was Robert Buckley; who had told hi;.: (Cryor; tsburgh were anxious tc acquire -- _et me say r. wer-o a m : o e* T * c ' it cs. 1--- -is U_r i s .0 'arre o^ 'Ou-v/ w C ry had surveysc tre oc. c product they wished to manufacture was Unibestos. They had 3 enquired of Cryor and they were enquiring of Cryor whether 4 there was any possibility of their obtaining access to 5 manufacturing knowhow and a supply of raw material, and they 6 went on to say "Could someone come arid talk to us about_ this? . 7 Q Did you do that while you were there9 8 A Yes. The next day I went to Pittsburgh and had one meeting 9 that I have described. 10 Q And was it your purpose to answer both of those questions? 11 A Well, I wasn't really in a position to answer either of them, 12 but I was in a position to explore the possibilities. 13 0 And did you? 14 A Yes. 15 Q, And that is the meeting that you h a v e --- 16 A That I have referred to. 17 C You attended that in your capacity as chief scientist? 18 A That is right. 19 Q Did you attempt to give them any information or help in the are. 20 of manufacturing knowhow? 21 A Yes, I did. 22 Q What did you do in that regard? 23 A I decided that it would be helpful to them to see a 24 manufacturing operation of the type that would be involves. 25 They had asked me, of course, "What is involves in one 26 manufacture and in the precautions that you have t: taxe. , 27 so I decided that it would be advisable for them to see a 2B manufacturing operation, and I arranged then and tnere to 29 ke toen 30 :y ^ ^ *2,O V' " Q Q And who owned it? 22 A The company in Canada was owned by Holmes Foundry. 3 Q To which you sold asbestos? 4 A Yes. 5 W From Johannesburg? 6 A Ye H t 0 d _Z^ p...bU p A Di d I persona : urtner 9 question, Kr n O 10 A A V f r \ <r < *- A Ye s , I sh owe a ;hem this plant. I took them round this 12 an t , or Z a :ed the management to tale them route the 13 Fl d t^ x o ;hat way, and left them to think about it, 14 Q Di a they cant C._ o C - 15 A Tr.ey did. I-. C Wh at was acne 17 A ;wL'm' ssell britt incr.am wrote to me ana vats interested 15 ar*a h : would 19 . ror.c or.. 20 r. - a he come t A '" r\/r A. A i. did. 22 C /vT. . aid you c -V- >->*> 25 A we ^~a Z. ^ * a is "mar vr ;ec m i s contrac. ;e had here a *'*rr *^ p c> *! *'*' 25 A r-rx at Is r ? sr.r 5^ ever.* 'esu_te: . s-' in that ccr.tr rOr, *.r.o ~t an :_u T - - X \ ' C . " - V z. ' Vh. . ^ Y \ C - Z i'* ^ p ~ r- - .. {-: *- 2 then to Pittsburgh and then to Canada? 3 A In fact Mr Brittingham didn't come or. the Canadian visit. 4 The other gentleman whose name I mentioned went to Canada; - 5 Mr Brittingham didn't. 6 Q In any event, how long after that was it that t.ney sen. a 7 representative to London, or came to London? 6 A A relatively short time, a matter of months as I recal_. # 9 Q Who did they meet with in London? 1C A With me arid with the Chairman of Cape Asbestos Fibres. 4?4< 11 Q Who you hod advised to be present? - 12 A Yes. 13 Q, Is that when the contract was signed? - 14 A Kc. 15 Q What happened following that meeting? - 16 A Well, a number cf things happened. Pittsburgh's main concern f 17 was to get the knowhow to manufacture tne product, and rr.-cn 1B of the conversation was centred around t m s aspect cf tne_r 19 concern. 20 Q Were you able to assist them in this any more? t. 21 A V."e began to set up the machinery tc do this. 4 22 Q What did you do? 23 nA They sent their engineer; they sert someone; they sent a 24 deputation to see our manufacturing plant in England. 25 Q What were you manufacturing? 26 A We were manufacturing a comparable product. say we -.ere 27 manufacturing''; a subsidiary company called Cape Insulation 23 were manufacturing a product called Caposite, wnicr. is anarot 29 tc Cnibeotos. 30 X 2 They came to inspect this. We helped them to that exten 5 In very general terms, I discussed the scientific and technical 4 problems relating to the manufacture. These then tapered 5 cff because it became clear that Pittsburgh were intent to 6 purchase the Ur. ( operating it at 6 require knowhow Qy C Technology'': 1C A The teerotology. 1- raw material. l -'_0 rv, You were the on 13 plant here 9 / A I was the catalyst. 13 Q Then they did in fact purchase the Unareo plant ir Tyler? to nA Y e s . 17 Q To set up to go into business? 15 A r~v pt '~ oht. 19 /-\ 'when did they contact you next? 20 A t can't "ernember. when I say I can't remember, I c a n 't 21 l-he next stame was the agreement that you y 22 shown me. 23 a V.'ho prepared that? 2~ A As I recall, Pittsburgh Corning prepared that. 23 Where was itsigreb? 26 AA. It was signed in Pittsburgh and in South Africa. 27 Q Did your attorneys look at it before it was siyne * A You say Cape Insulation. Wot as I recall. 2-~ r Dio ary of tire attorneys for any of the Cape Into series -- w' V - i L *it t f \ i 2 3 a 5 6 < 8 9 10 11 I <L 13 ih " 3 16 1? 18 19 20 CL <! 22 23 i Pa 25 26 27 ' 2B i. *p--a Z^ i I it was signed? A Its subsidiary, yes, I am sure. I am answering your question without really knowing for a fact what happened in South Afric Q In the normal course of business it would have been done'' A It would hive been examined in South Africa by a lavyer. r-. Did any of the lawyers here in London? HA Not that I recall. r\ It was signed there and in Soutr. Africa? A T h a t 's right. r\c Die you ever consult with them again after tre agreement abcut the hazards or dangers of Anocite asbestos? A Continually. Q Continually? A Yes . Q What prompted the continual discussion or dialogue? A Both Pittsburgh and ourselves were concerned about asbestos and health questions and we exchanged views arc m : o r n a o . . on the occasions of my visits. r*=\c And how long did this discussion or dia_og-e c on ~_r .-=? A ? or as long as i was vis-- n^ a r ^uSDur^-... r\ Was that until the time they quit buying from you? A Yes. My last visit to Pittsburgh would oe m -9'- cr -9,-; I am not sure. Q Would it be fair, then, to say, Dr. Gaze, tnat you discusses this asbestos and the potential hazards cf it with Pit:sburgh from 19 bl down to about 19711 rAv Y e s . iC. --... 1 . l/T.i V ]PS^--C-- 0 U--..! y J V^v.--. ~ ~ -- -- .hld V.-. ~w c j ~ 5 ^j ^ ,-A* V-.*yci-v"/tZdi --j ^^ -V'-"i'- --1PL~"--'"L Tl/ r----r I s> kii'_ eui uu onese a^stussion 5 were Deing neuo m your capacity 2 as chief scientific adviser? 3 Chief scientist. Also to some degree in my capacity as a 4 director cf Cape Fibres, 5 Q rut at any rate these discussions were held in a dual capacit 6 A Yes. 7 And all during that period of time you had the knowledge e that Amocite asbestos vas dangerous? 9 Yes. 10 D_d you make any ether effort, other than tnese discussions 11 that you had with the Pittsburgh officials, to warn or advise il the people vine would be expected to work around asbestos of i' 14 i -1`". I IO Q 17 15 -,0 dangers? Could you reframe your question to the extent of implying whe re? Are you talk!.ng about *p * i *- 4- V m vucuu iv i jrCrVl-,I. No. Ky question in: r- d you make any effer ts, ether than the discussions that you have ^c--i ed a k/--, , to warn or ac.vise any pei son vino would oe expec ted to work arc ur d '-y-> oduct -- .1 r.gers? A You ntan any e.*-*"'"1 of Pi --r-"K''*rgh'S? r\ ir any other person. Yes, 1*. ^ 'c just take Pittsbu: ..Wirt A I was going ^r,7 C -- ,j No, " con fined mv converse 13 persons I met, the officials of Pittsburgh that u met, 24 my visits to the :h head office. 25 Jci you ever at on 26 cor.tain ;-rs? 27 A \c r 29 ; A x1r>, , _ . . S-.. V v 0 a cor^amery 2 A No. 3 Q It just simply wasn't done? 4 A No. 5 Q The sum total of what you did in connection vu.cn advising 6 Pittsburgh of Che dangers of asbestos between the period I;ibi 7 and 19 "1 in ycur capacity as chief scientist was these 6 discussions that ycu had with the officials in I.ttsb: ho 9 A That is so. 10 Q You knew cubing this period of time that they were purchasi-- *e> n asbestos from you? 12 A Yes. 13 Q, To be used by workmen in the manufacturing of this product? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Did you know it was being sent to Tyler? 16 A Yes. 1? Q I believe you have told me you have never bean to Tenas? 16 A K<p. I spent one night in El Paso. 19 0. You have never been to Texas! I guess that is a good quit: --a 20 paint. 21 (Off the record discussion) 22 MR O'CONNOF.: Dr. Gate, yon said that nc warnings were ever pi 23 on any of the products mined by Cape Industries or any cf ^ ' the subsidiaries 'until the ''Government regulations" went ir 25 effect. What Government regulations were ycu referring to 26 in that answer? 27 A I can't answer that specifically, but there was a recurrent 2 3 by some official organisation in the unite', states that asv -S t/--- S^-4 snourd be sase_reo. it 'was, i tnouxnt, a ,-cverrmen: recur: 2 capacities that you held, and particularly that of chief 3 scientist for Cape Industries, you could have seen that a 4 label was placed on these containers? ' 5 A Yes. 6 7 6 9 10 [At 9.50 p.m. the taking of testimony was adjourned until 9 - m tomorrow morning) 11 London, England, June :, ia 12 O L- < 1 r2 0 Dr. Gaze, do you know whether anybody with a: y c-f the Cape 14 companies ever went to Tyler, Texas" 15 A. The only recrle I am aware of wro ever went to uer were 16 the manager of a plant at Barking, whose name wuo r.e..ce_-e, 17 wer.i in 1969, and Mr White, who went in 1; 16 Q r~ *Vl.lCl v was the purpose of Mr Mende lie 's vis: 19 Tnis was to accyuire some information, som 20 from Pittsburgh C o m i n g , at our request. il knowhow, 21 Q What did he want to know? 22 A There was a product manufactured by Pittsburgh Ceram; 25 had in fact a hir:.er temperature resistance than tr 24 equivalent n^" 0u 4-V ^ - we manufacf - v-q 0 ' " ~ z 25 Pittsburgh Corning were prepared to give us the technical informati on. on the I/iC--hiC-up and the rz*z.wfacture of this 2? product, clT.CI Mentalie- went to Tyler in erder to study this. 26 Q Hew long we 7 no "'^0-n09 29 L A cay. 30 2 English Government? Right, yes. 3 4 KR BALDWIN: And that was in the early 1970's, wasn't it? That's right. 5 KR 0' CORK OR: Would that be something like Ocean -- but at any 6 rate it was the U.S. Government? 7 There was a requirement that if asbestos was to be shipped 6 o into the United States a warning label should be placed upon 10 the bags. And you had no warnings prior to the passage of tnat government 11 12 i regulation? ip A Tnat -s ccrrec; Q But subsequent thereto you have had warnings? 14 15 A ^c1 n rn*. 4 - v* -c. u O * Q r *) -- J_ T-L delrri.l 44 J "* U- iiy-\ r* ; to do is find cut which Government you are 16 ^ *> referring tc. You mean the U.S. Government? / /* A T h e r e has neve; been a requirement in ary country in the qc world to label apart from the United States. T/J3 nA_d>< j.b .* 1 wan ted to ask you this: During that p e n o o of 20 time 1; 6l thru yc-i, tailing into consideration your pcsiti 21 cu the Board of Cape Industries and your position as chief 22 scientist arid the other various positions tnat you neic, 23 you could have caused a label to be put on these asbestos a4 containers' -r /-- /rn I could have r A n .2 you ccjj-C 27 had been done had you seen 25 jl 1 6S - 29 A, fi 2 ever have a joint venture? 3 A No. 4 Did Mr Mendelle report to you the working conditions o~ -he c plant there when he came back? Not as far as I recall. He came back and said he cion t feel he had much to learn. That is the only comment I recollect ? hi s making. cJ. this visit did you instruct him to advise wi "10 tsburgh officials or ar.y of the employees ci the r U 71 re ci the potential hazards of working ar our d as test 12 h* this was in no way the purpose of the visit. If Q Who did you say went in 1970? +{*- A Mr Vhite. We referred to him yesterday. u Q Yes, I remember his name. He was not the men -..ai, $ ^ 76 seconded from this other firm? 19 A Yes, he was. : 76 Q What was the purpose of that visit? 79 A Pittsburgh Corning had told us tha^ <= dci very cf asbestos 3 20 that we had marie was not satisxacuor,v m c^~-v.o. iw -ur-- - o the product they made, ana tnere was s o .j= discuss 2.or &DOu^ p p this which resulted in Pittsourgh Corrn:^ specifi cally asking h'.AAC if an enoert could be provided to ass^s- -nerc What was the problem? 2r The problem was the density of the product, If the product nc**c' "i V.pi is too heavy., its efficiency as an m s u i a u -- .g m 2? below standard. Equally, it becomes less economi ;o rr because it contains more material. v ^ 1o-- " ,T^ - W p p c^0 3 O E ;0 2 Q How could Mr White help in this area? 3 A He had, in the course of his career, worked in this 4 particular process. 5 Q It w a s n 't in connection with a complaint of the quality 6 of the asbestos, then? 7 A Not specifically, nc, although naturally Pittsburgh had s attributed the problem to the quality; not unnaturally they 9 had done this. 10 q They thought the fibres were too big or w'w i.jC*J. J. 11 A Yes. 12 0 Was this the same problem we were talking about yesterday 13 A It is. 14 Q, They thought the fibres were too small" 15 A T h a t 's richt. 16 Q, And Mr White was able to show them that they were n h ;oo 17 small to be used in the way that he suggestsa? 16 If you adjusted L/l 1C ill ai ohinery in the correct fsonica, 19 was possible to make a product to the require-: >cil i cation. 20 Q Did Dr. White on this vis 21 A I think you are perhaps con fu tr Dr. Hodgson with nr v.ni^e 22 Both of them went to Fort /nalJi_legneny to conduct this 2* investigation, and aft-_r this was completes Dr. r.oag: 2-u returned to London. Someone from. Pittsburgh at trat invite 25 Mr White to go to Tyler in order also to ensure trat 26 27 Q When Mr White went d 29 :er Drecautions Z /"n ne corh er v*in. O C * 2 q, At least he had no Instructions iron: you to do it? 3 A No. 4 Q What did you tell me yesterday that Mr White's field of ,,4-1. 3 6 7 e 9 10 11 12 13 . 14 13 16 ^ 1 r/* i expertise is? A Ke is an engineer. Q And what company was he with? n He was wi th Cape Universal Building Products Were you the one that requested him to go to 1-v1 er? A Possibly, but not necessarily. It migr.t hav colleagues in Cape Fiores who did this. No, I am sorry, I haven't answered your question properly. aren't request, him to go to Tyler. I requested him; to go to Pi ttsburgh. Q Were you the one that requested him. to do that, then? A Either I or one of my colleagues; this I can t remember. We did n 't request him to go to Tyler. T m s was the point I wanted to establish. Q yip- opn hf\V. vou learned that he naa seen u-0/-v f-TWj--"Ii.ptw-O. 19 A That is correct. 20 Q And when Mr Mendelle came back you learnec tna^ he had beer. 21 4L-/W^ .J ) 0. 22 A Yes. 23 /" So you knew then that at least by I96A there wa s a Tyler pi 24 A Yes. 2;, r\ In ccmectior. with that, were you the one that made Pittsbu 26 iI 27 : 2 j 6 9 1 Corning aware of Unarcc? No. rs ^ Hew did they become awar- that Unarcc was opera oir.g this plant, if you know? 30. 2 be aware, because Unibestos was a well-known product or. the 3 United States. 4 Q What I arc getting at is I believe you told us yesterday 5 that your first contact with Pittsburgh Corning revealed 6 that they were interested in making this product and 7 obtaining the technical knownow tc do it? 8 A is so 9 Q And % onr were in the process of attempting tc give them the 10 techrniicali :knowhow when you found that tr.ey no l;rger had an 11 interest because they changed their mind and decided to 12 acquire plant? "i 3 A That is sc, yes. 14 Q, I was wondering if you were familiar with the circumstances 15 as to how they happened to determine to acquire thus Tyler 16 plant. Did they make that known to you? 17 A ho. 18 Q You weren't the one, then? 19 A No. 20 Q, Were ary of the Cape companies selling Unarco at the time 21 or prior to the time that P.C, took it over? 22 A Yes. 23 Q How long had yen been selling Unarcc? 24 A Since the mid-I930's. 25 Q Were yen familiar with the fact that thev had a Tyler ulc .ro 26 r, j-i I knew a pi ant existed at Tyler. I was familiar with tr.e 27 expression M - ! 26 r\ That would be sii.ee your com.inm vitr tr.e com.par.y? 29 Vc- - 30 ' \ = - - VM d 1i 1 expression 'the Tyler plant or unarco since one iru- & 5 i A Yes, I think the Tyler plant opened in 1 9 5 ^ 1955 something 4 of this order. I would have become aware of this at some rc later date in the 1 9 5 0 's. 6 Q So you knew from some time in the 195 Os that you were selling ) 7i asbestos to the Tyler plant? 8 A I knew that asbestos that was being sold by ZX'.ET- to a Pittsburgh Corning was being processed in the Tyler plant. 10 Q VJell, of course, Pittsburgh C o m i n g didn't run the plant. 11 A I am sorry; Pittsburgh C o m i n g ' s predecessor. 0 Unarco, I believe. "'5 A Yes. 14 ft I d o n 't know if I am making myself clear. Possibly I am, but 15 I will ask you again just to make sure that v;e are all c l e m . 16 You knew from the middle 195^ s at least on sown m m e ^_me 17 that P.C. took the plant over that EGKZP was seizing assesses 13 to Unarco and it v.'as being processed x.j ohe 19 A Yre s . 20 r, This, of course, was Amocite? 21 i Yes. 22 r*s\. T to ~V c. o pv*'"j' ether firm that sells Amocite asbestos? 25 Yes. 24 Q, Who is that? 25 jr-,. A cor:. any in South Africa whose name 1 don't recall. _ air. 26 genuine; th is is genuinely so; and the reason I don't recall 27 it is tnat EGhh? sells 9- to 95p of che 5 SUP?-.' c- 23 Amocite. So this other 5/= is of relattvely sma_i cor.yc-- es 29 W O 0 C apoear and disappear ana come onto m e Dualia Asbes tos at that time was seising Amoc-ws as-tri . r ^ CcL. -a* vt o v - ? * 5? - . - 3 >g 6 7 e 9 10 11 12 'll 14 | 15 i 16 17 18 ^9 ! 20 21 22 23 24 25 ! 26 27 23 29 Amocite asbestos? Since the mine opened. It is the only geographical locatio: in which Amocite asbestos is found ir. the world. Q And that is South Africa? A Yes. Q You told us yesterday that you came over here and -4-e-CUE this matter with the Pittsburgh C o m i n g people po ssib iy a year from the time that you first came in I bel ieve 19 A Yes. Q During any of those visits did you ever meet Dr. Gran _wC.' A No. Q Have you ever met Dr. Grant? A Q Have you ever corresponded with Dr. Grant? A Not directly, no. Q 'What do you mean when yon say ''dire v !!A At one point in my discussions with K:r Brittinghe m I V.G advised him to seek the services of a medical cons-It ant or adviser. t ti riiis in the light oi the fact that he had ash me what our etrrerience was in Britain with these pros It was a. auesticr. vrhich he freauert'v ashed me. I ha t told him that we had found this a very helpful and useful to do. I was just going to complete that. Whether it was a result of this conversation I had with Mr Brittingham the he got in touch w. th Dr. Grant, I have no idea, but the 4-V. A- -- h6cLr>'*' of it was that Mr 3ri tting:' t wrote to m; oli me ther h r i engwagwed --r . Grant in one car acuty c. c."<->~-cc.* c i a--s.---- 1c -pc. A ' eaters lor me to rear. cr w: 2 Ii 3 c y 6 7 6 0 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 1? 18 19 20 21 22 23 27 in Britain, and if so would I please give him t our medical officer with whom Dr. Grant could c This I die. 0, Who is your medical officer in Britain that you A Dr. Snither. Q Could you gi ve us his initial and address? A Kis initial is V,'. Kis address is the sane as t fO'' T ~ 'r-*-~>~ies. Q Is he a full -time employee of Gape Industries? A He 3s n o t . He is a consultant. Vr.' hoes he dc ar.ything else? A Net now. rv Di d he then? A He had a pra ctice of his own. C. When did he retire fton his practice? Within the last year. But. during the tine that he was consulting with you did h have a practice? A Yes. Q Is he lull-tine with the Cate ccnpanies now? A Hu has retired iron his oractice and he has no other cccu apart from his consultancy with the Cape compar. 1 S 'K f l 0W J1 3 .S 1*10 maintained an office at that ad A I gave you that address for convenience, but he has been consultant with Cape, if that is your question, since 19 or thereabouts. Have vou trovided hin an oiiice? 30 j 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 13 16 17 15 19 20 j 21 ' 22 j 23 i 24 25 26 27 2c- 7 " A Yes. Q At the address that you gave? A Not at that address. He has beer moved from various addresses Q But he has oeen on the pa;, roll, then, of m e cf the Cape companies since the 1950's as a medical consultano? A As a consultant. I am not familiar with the exact meaning o~ u.ie word p a r e l i , but if you meat they have paid him as a consultant, the answer is Yes. Q I mean, tney have paid him at a consultar.t on a regalar basis? A The only qualificati not been a full-time rt. But he has been paid A Yes. r' From the 1 9 5 0 's? A Yes. nL. V.'ricn company does he work fer? A he w.ocorrkkss at present for three companies -c_. ^ai Cape Universal Claddir. ar.u io: Cape Boaras Q. Why do you ",a*1.cV,O W,U-o-4W-' those three contanies for u Tn to v:ork A He works fo r Cape Ir.dUSr*' G'r hc p general adviser aste s t a.* C--^ ^ ^ a questions. He actually consults with -uV.-1-* other companies, by -which I mean he atte r.d.. cn a regula 4 /as is in order re condait medi cal examinati in of workpecpl Pi factory has a medical officer. It is convenient ~r'r-. Every him to be the m err cal off icer at the fC*s 70T* 6S c^ *50 Ck'1e cerr^v Vs *y ,iC,VC men ti on ed Q How long ha-re you had c~ re die a1 odf'cer for every T;^ ay ^-- 0 > V 2 3 4 w r{ 6 9 1C 11 12 13 ii O 16 17 16 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 | 27* i i 72 j for as long as I can recall; 20 years or more. Q The reason I ask you that, I thought I understood you to say yesterday that there had been recently a law passed making certain recruirements. A That was in connection with safe ty. Q That was not in connection wTith a medical officer? A No. Q How long has - what did you say his name was? A Dr. Valter Smither. Q How long has Dr. Smither wor ked for Cape Industries? A I believe for as long as he has been employed by the r\ That would be tne 19 5 0 's? A Yes. 0 So when you were talking yesterday about your knowledge of the dangers of asbestos to the human being, you were able to dc that vrith the knowledge that you had received from Or. Smithers, your medical consultant? A Yes. Q And colleague on the Board of Cape Industries? No, he is not on the Boa: urcustnes. Q Excuse me; A Y 6: S colleague as medical consultant to Cate Indus;;n e s . Q What is his function as a consultant to Cape Industries? A He keeps in touch with and advises us on all questions in n o 1 p tion to asbestos and health and any other me that arise in the genera 1 course cf our business Q When you say "our busine ss'" you mean. all the Cap '* c- * a q < V a c 2 3 4 5 6 7 6 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 IC 17 16 19 20 21 aa 2u 25 26 i i 27 26 f 2Q ' 2.^ i. companies? A 'We' refers to the Cape group. When I say "we", I usually mean the Cape group. Q And when you say "group", you are referring r.c nil of the Cape companies that we talked about yesterday? _ A That's right. Q Is he the senior medical consultant for the group? A He is. So ii i understand it, his roie from the 1 9 5 0 's to row has been tnat of a medical adviser on health problems in connection with assesses to ail cf the companies? A That is sc. Q Ana his advice and counsel has been available to yo u as a member cf the Boars cf Cape Industries and in your r>^Wgn capacities? A Yes. n Was it his experience that you were drawing on when we were talking yesterday about the dangers cf asbestc w O'wr the human being? A Among ethers, yes. r*. How many employees does Cape Industries have? Kr I would think probably about 70 or 8C. r\ Couic you break it down into classes cf employ ees, Just describe then by groups or classes? A - wouua like a little notice of that cues tier. to re n-~^-r.'n exactly, or I can give you a very approximate -*V---<--*-kp^ f1v> memory. n M-c---- m 0 2 people, including Mr Penna. 5 Q You wouldn't class Kr Penna as a secretary, would you? 4 A I am shaking my head. There are, of course, the executive e; .4 directors and their secretaries. There is the Accounts 6 Department, consisting of 10/15 people, including secretaries. 7 There is the personnel department, consisting of 10 neople, 8 including secretaries. There may be one or two others, but oJ that i approximately it. 10 2 If I understand it, then, the make-up of employees cl Oape 11 Industries is managerial, secretaries, the Accounts Department 12 New what does that do? 13 A Yield, it is responsible for preparing the accounts of Cape 14 on au stries 15 rs Does that :have to do with the clearing house eper 16 rAr-.. Part of its Job would be to supervise and control the clearing 17 system for payments, yes. 13 Q The major part of the accounts for Cape Industries is their 19 accounting in between the various companies in the group, i s n ' 20 it? 21 A When you say "in between the various companies", no. Per 22 example, there is no great measure of accounting between the 23 iary comp 5lT 0S , unless one happt-r.s to ;p*l 9 24 her, and then this would be a oransae 25 between the two. i d o n 't t n m n that was perhaps your 26 Q My ouestion is: Whv is tne accounts group suer, a large group 2? wnen ^ape .industries really diesn --p v - r- ~ p. -- v-- --m -J' ai active business of selling any produc or service -- ao.. . Yntow. .l w o m a n t nave C P ^ C. >- * p. ' large grout. I I v > 2 A Approximately, yes. That is &r. approximation. 3 Q At any rate, they are what the Americans would call accountants 4 that would keep up with bookkeeping figures? - 5 A That is right. 6 Q And then the other group is personnel? 7 A And then, of course, the'-e are tax considerations, too, 6 which come in. These g u y s there are one cr two forms to be 9 filled in ir. cpera-i ons in the Un_ted hinge om. 10 Q They will use three or four forms wleu one will 11 you told me? 12 Kr. Yes. 13 Q The other grouP is personae 7r/ 14 A Yes. 15 Q And that is com.pose d of about 10? 16 nA I would think probebly less than 10, but certainly r.o mere 17 than X p 'yJ . 16 pvi Why would you have 10 peep10 p0 ----- 19 A Part of the se rvice -+ *4 V V- -Cf c/ pe P r U/ a- Industries supplies to the 20 subsidiary companies is an advisory service o.. personnel 21 questions. UU PV What is this advisory service? 25 A 'Well, one of the other blessings whi oh we have\,in tne Unit 24 Kingdom is the amount of negotiation over wages that takes 25 place with the trade ur.ions. 26 r 6c the personnel dinar cm.enc of Cape Industries handles the 2? A It doesn't harr'le it, but it gives advice on the question, 23 !. 0 C 2 U Z S C 6 2 . Z-T* L V . 77.~ Z. ~ 'J **'^ r','r> q --a- ^ ~ ss >-* ~ ^ r__*5' ~ ^ ^ c .C V 1 3 " 1 30 7 dealing vlTr. wag? qaes: 1ar.a. 30 2 ! A Ko, it doesn 't negotia te at all. 3 Q T*- Just gives advice? 4 A *T _L U gives adv ice. 5 C Cr co-ordina tes informati on? 6 A Tha t is righ t, and giv es advice on e 7 and this kit d of quest j.or/ 5 Q Ko* is there any othe r Er csp of em,,> 0y than you hav e told us abo ut? 1C A No. Myself and Dr . Srr.ither I di dn X Lnciuoe. 11 Q I Vias about tc ask you : Where v.ou id the picture ? mro 13 A Dr. Smithen reports to me 14 Q To you direc `'-O 1$ A Yes 16 Q Hcv: long has he report ed to you" It A fCc-*/--0,ce appro;:imately 19 62/ 0r-",> ' 18 Q Am I correct ; *" ^ ; "-*v**i -- e descr iP ti ?rW --. O* Nc 19 group in so far as medical questions are concerned that 20 Smither is the medical consultant for the entire grout? 21 Ko, he is not the medical consultant for the entire gro; 22 because individual cornanies would have tneir cv;n medics 23 ; 2^ I consultant to deal with indivi dual medical que saior their own plant's operat ione. Dr. Smither is medic consultant to Cape Indus tries, but in that capacity 25 erpecaed to keep an eye on and to keep me informed on : 27 j questions wrier may arise in any of the subsidiary com: 22 Q That is v:hat I mean. Or. Smiths: is ' ring house Ot metical problems in correction v.'ith tj L v, ''''-"i .1.!.V . .Aj,.' V C 2 3 u. 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 13 -`ic aa 23 24 25 26 27 23 | 29 : 30 ^ Ana ^Is faction, in part at least, is to co-ordinate the various medicau problems that crop up within the group? A Yes. Q But if there is any problem of a serious nature anywhere in the croup, then his services would bt available ar.d would be used? . A Yes. Q I oake ~t from tne fact that you told me he reports to you on `'his that that falls within your responsibility? A Yes. 0 2n ju ,,r capacity as a member of Cape Industries Board? i+T r+-***<+* "Q V4 4- . w- # 0 So would that be an accurate description alto of your duties, that in your capacity with Cape Industries you oversee the medical problems of the entire group and co-ordinate the activities of the various doctors? A c ^ Ttq*' ~ applies wit Q It vrould a?.so aptly wi companies? A Not to the same extent I den t expert D: uent visits to South A `p'"ic. Smithers will make 0. x usii6r*sw i x>'^r" South Africa? He is not unmir. dful of the troblems in A Exactly; that is r' Q And anything cf a S6:r1LO'^a.e nature in the Scu;th African grout n c. v *** v >-- v e would be consul ted? H That would be so. r\ Dees net the South o;1V- group al 0 *a_ v:~" *"*"* ^ V -- k_, w. . ^ w _r,,-- `l; _trS ~ c i<r: * jc1 unere is more tenuous, simply because of 2 the geographical distance involved. Basically, the South j African group looks after its own medical affairs, but I arr. 4 kept informed. - c s Q You are kept informed ana advised in your capacity with Cape 6 Industries' 7 A That is right. s Q That is another one of the services that Cape Industries l 9 furnishes, the co-crdination of the medical problems? 10 11 12 | That is so. Ai.d 1 ou rave, of course, along 'with the responsibility, the ai ,,nority to see that v.'hatever procedures as are necessarv 13 are followed in connection with medical problems? 15 A les. I explained that in some detail yesterday. 15 r*cv And tnaf would extend throughout the grout? 16 A Y e s . 17 0 uo you know wretner Dr. Smithers was ever in contact v.'ith 16 Dr. Grant? ^cy A No, he was never in contact with Dr. Grant. Dr. Grant never y wrote to him. 21 Q Ke cid net? 22 A No. 25 i have forgotten: did you tell me this morning that you saw 25 some letters or papers that Dr. Grant had written? 25 A Yes. 25 ;1 -"s I thought you did. 1 What is your feeling as to Dr. Grant's 2? understanding of the medical problems in relation to the use ps ! t w q ;! A of asbestos or working around asbestos? - **=-''5 ~et Dr. Grant, and apart from these one or two le 30 | that I have seen I have no knowledge of any c: his work or c c Q From these letters did you get any kind of feeding or 2 knowledge? 3 A The feeling I had was that he was expressing concern to Mr IL Brittingham about the general asbestos and hea_tr situation. 5 Q Did you get the feeling from his letters that ho a* a realise 6 the seriousness of the proi ems associated with workin, 7 e asbestos, or did you get ti feeling that he mi:.imi sed A ho. As I recall, he attempteed to givvee in uH SS letter 9 a survey of current knowledge of the asbestos and hea! 10 situation, and I had tr.c fee. ng that ne was expressi: ii Q Certainly in the 1 9 : 0 " and ! i-j C 's there was an aburd 12 literature available on the problem of asbestos the med*c<=.u 13 field? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And that would be world-wide? 16 17 16 i 1c 20 21 22 O* ! i + ~ , - uw , 26 | 27 1 2E ; 2c A Yes. 2 I realise it has been a number of ars and that you r.aae a number of trips, but wculc you pleas as you can everything tnat yo t^v tc te 11 me as nearly j ^ V. rah Corning oeoolc -with reference to t! sa: pr ;aken in working around asbestos. A is difficult to b c. C -- such a ion perico of time. first of all felt that the cerr^eet- tc do was to demon strate the precautions th p-- *'*!/--^ i/r taxer in ranc_inr asbestos by showing them WO omr*c r\ *Vh - whi ch tc she best cf our kr.owleoge at tnat 0--Ojtr was as good d^ Jn_d.. or as mod rr. a plant, as end stem. - 3 s.ntv--- & this czer _,, -- was sr ovmr.g tr.e- exac . tne entent of the care ana tne oreeauticr: U- vj C/ ' ^ ' I I'**,. c 2 Q, What plant die yon show them? 3 A That was the plant which was being operated by Koimes Insulation 4 in Canada. 5 Q Go ahead. 6 A Subsequently, there was a visit to London by the engineers 7 and technical people cf Pittsburgh C o m i n g , and on the occasion 6 of this visit the engineering factors were explained in c considerable detail to Mr Baumler, who was the warns director 10 (I use the expression ''director' in the Englisr sense) 11 of Pittsburgh Com i n g . He was shown the operation tnat v.Te 12 had working at Barking, which was at that time, m our view', a good operation. He was shown, for example, tne metnccs 13 14 of exhausting air in the plant from the mo:>e dangerous or the 15 more hazardous operations, the more potentially nazaraous 16 operations. Tne question of calculating tne correct air 17 volumes which should be used at this point is c l e a n y an 15 important one. On this occasion Mr Baumler was giver, tnat 19 information. 20 Q Was this in the 19oC's' oc A Yes; and on the occasion of this same visit _ was not sc muc.. it, but ^ c: d speru e;ocd deal of time with Dr. D 'Eusi who was their rese; time some of the m 25 scientific aspects of the situation. It is lixely at *"i-<2. 26 time, although I c a n 't remember, that th; Y would meet Dr. S 27 who was stationed at Barking at the time 2B 0, What were the more scientific aspe: >-- c- ^ * W.-S ..-Clx/ r- - , explained to Dr, D 12ut.aoio` Z r\ - Amocite asDestos 2 q is there anything else you told hirr. that we haven t discussed 3 here? ^ A In relation to asbestos and health? ' 5 Q The precisions tc be taken. 6 A Not that I can recall. (r r Q Did you ac .'ise him to have the people to wear resp 8 or was the t discussed? 9 A Not that I re call. You will appreciate -- Kc, j. c 10 that there wa.s ar.y cor versacin abort respiratcrs 11 Q You sai. a* 11 at e . *- rfp; e " . V,7hat time reference arc iz A V.'e are dis cussrng cou\ ersati or.s I had with Pittsb1 13 in the ear iy 1 9 6 0 's . 14 Q Did you at any time a:'ter that period of time hav 13 corn/ersati on with him about the use 0f respirator 16 you ever? 17 A Quite pcss'> -- Vu', .Iy, but I d o n 't recall an occasion. 15 pcs c* an i I would say even likely , because we lS very 19 the su tyect extensive iy 20 Q. But you c a n 1t recall specifically whetr.er you eve 21 W' * W * t? ;te; 22 A No, I can:- w ^ recall. ay Q, 24 25 26 ; H 25 1 29 A Based on rour kr.owied ge of asbestos, arc based or wit h your IT ; 6 dical con sult&r.ts, `would you consider a safe pr act ice for 0ne to be worhin g around asb ;o b< , - /*. c* V-.-* dig inr i he bags v.i put ting it ir. a feede r? **** and picking V'ould you consider trac ;o be a safe pra L L ' . . w V - 4 C ~ V oe asbestos? vs' 0 ~ c . r i c - N a. 0 * 0 0 ve-7 TTS /- V- v p. sr.eC :ro V-- '-v V.A Cp.i-v> Cp encuirir.r acout. 1 q you Know wnat asDestos i o o k .s j -- m & -------- <= 2 about workmen digging it out of the sack writh their hands. 3 A I would never advocate anyone to handle asbestos m the way 4 that you have approximately described. - 5 Q V'ith or without respirator- 6 A In my view - you have asked me my opinion, I think, here - 7 I am not in favor cf wearing respirators unless it is e absolutely necessary to do so. The correct method of handling 9 asbestos is to provide working conditions so that it is not 10 necessary for anyone to wear a respirator. 11 Q. Did you advise P.C. of this? 12 A Tes. 13 o To press the matter, you would not suggest r.e nand-ng of 14 asbestos as I have described by digging it ou. v ^-~-- -- 15 hands in close proximity tc your face, even w - n r e o- 16 respirators, would you? 17 A I would not advise doing this without a respirator, i woula 13 not advise d0"* g jJi*_t.l / dd U ^' U -acUll.-l-- Tc J'o 'r' some unspecified reason -1- - - ^ * 19 it was es sen u I S . 1 to do thi s, 20 wear a respi rat or. 21 Q Would it be hel pful A1-/s,--v/ we a 22 A Oh, ye s, it is helpful to we a respirator. Tnere are 23 G C C 2. S i ons wit'.QTl wearing res pi tors is necessary and advisasle, 24 Q What I am saying, and possibly not making myself clear, 25 is: Do you agree with me that it would not be advisable -or 26 a person to handle asbestos as I have described to you, even 27 with the use of a respiratoorr? 2B A I am going to answer yot question by pu L/ V -L*- ^ 29 way round, Mr Balov,-in. ' you had to do 30 a respirator. .'.Kv /a. ". C' ; - =5 . - *i 2 C/ilC rtC7G.. WA W*WW*. j ` --- - - * - eliminate any danger involved in such a process? 3 A If the respirator is an adequate one, the answer 4 ft Would you say that one should be required to work 5 conditions ior five, six, eight hour periods; wc 6 safe working conditions? 7 A I would not regard those as being desirable work- 8 ft Tnat is whether or not you wear a respirator? 9 A Without a respirator, I 'would put it more strongl 10 ft The point I as making is that a respirator is no: 11 I mean it i s n 't absolutely preventive? 12 A A gocc respirator is foolproof. 13 A And what is a good respirator? 14 A To take an extreme case, a good respirator woulc 15 air-line respirator in which air is supplied to under pressure from outside. 17 Q, Tnur is the tvoe rest>ir?tor that you are sayu.-t 'IB A Thar is an example of a foolproof respirator. 19 Q, Do you know of any industry that employe those; 2 A Y e s . 21 r T V,q*.; 0 V02 22 ! r Within the last four years. 25 | r _ I ^ ! rr. ^^ ! ft 2? ( But prior to that do you know of any incus try that ever used those? No , Is that the tyre res tirator that you were referrinr to a moment ago when you said if you work in a sack wi th the use of a 25 1 wVZi A 7^rw* i: resoirator it migr.t Ko, there are other -- frees of rest: rater wh:ich also cevid be 'czez* i tnere are some resp-.i-e.woio ^.ia.o o--.w e > w * 2 not so good and some that are bad? 3 A That is true. That is exactly right. The example I gave you 4 was an example of what I would consider to be virtually a 5 foolproof respirator. 6 q, It becomes a matter of degree? _ 7 A Yes. 8 Q. Why do you advocate that no respirator should be used in 9 proper working conditions? 10 A The answer to the question is containea -n -h. ques-- o.i r0u 11 have asked me, Mr Baldwin. If there are proper working 12 conditions, it is not necessary to use a respirator. *13 q Maybe I was wrong, but I thought I understood you earlier 14 to say that you for one don't advocate the use of respirators. A I don't advocate creating working conditions in v.nich res*.--arc 13 16 ane necessary. 17 Q, Is there some reason not to use a respirator, or some 15 disadvantage to using a respirator? 19 A Yes, there is a disadvantage. 20 Q Tell us that. 21 of creating coneitions in whicr a 22 .hat men are apt to become careles no` 23 wear it. 24 Q, Men are fallible? 25 A Yes. 26 Q, And there are not many men that are going to weaV* >-v<2. C ^ 7? t 27 everyJ' minute of an eight hour day, are t,j.e-c 25 It is impractics- to mairta_n super\-- ;o this degree, 29 ry opinion. 30 QO 1 It Is impossible to expect reasonaoxe me- wu. 2 respirators and wear them all day long on an eight hour shiit.-1 3 Yes; and it is only, in my opinion, in exceptional 4 circumstances. ' 5 Q Would you consider working conditions where the acoestos f-bres 6 are of such a thick nature that one cannot see from one end 7 of the room to another ever a 20 or 30 2t. space tecause of the 8 asbestos dust in the air as safe working conditions? 9 No. 10 MR O 'CONNOR: I object to that question as being leading. 11 MR BALDWIN: Are you familiar with the term ''feeder' in a process 12 such as P.C ' 3 A In general terms I know what you mean. 14 Q Do you know what is required of the people that work aro"no 15 the feeder, the feeder operation? 16 Could you describe it mere closely? 17 The operation where the raw asbestos fibres are fed into the 1B macnine. 19 A The type of machine that is used for the manufacture of 20 Unibestcs, for example. I have never seen the Tyler plant, V- r> '- 2'"' so I am net aware of the exact design of the feeder w . . a v vt 22 used. Feeders were used at the Barking plant for a s_..__<^- 23 purpose. 24 Q Well, if a person who was working at the feeder was required 25 to handle the asoes ^os witr his hands ~ c so me 25 up, putting it in the feeder, getting w 0-n- r_.is cicires. 27 would that be calculated to cause this cor.dit that you have described? 29 A I would regar ndesirable crac, ^.ice in X r' 1 Q Would you regard that as being a practice which would be 2 calculated to cause one to contact the disease of asbestosis 3 or its associated difficulties? 4 A I am going to leave it, Mr Baldwin, by saying it was an 3 undesirable practice. 6 Q Undesirable from what standpoint? . 7 A On health grounds. 8 Q For the reason that it would be harmful to the body, would cause 9 the problems that asbestos would cause to the human body? 10 A It would be undesirable on health grounds. 11 Q Would the same be true of the situation that I described 12 to you of working conditions where asbestos i*<; in the air so 13 thick that it can be seen, where it looks like dust? 14 A As you describe it, Mr Baldwin, it sounds an urc^s^ra'cle 15 condition on health grounds, too. 16 (A short recess was then taken) 17 Q I have a few questions about the clearing house ope: 18 so far as your knowledge is concerned. Car: you cell me one 19 practice that is followed with reference to Federal tan forms 20 for your various companies in the group? Hoes tre c_ear_r.g r.o-st: 21 prepare the figures 1-n or z i 22 A No. Tax ret urns k c ul Cl ta 23 and they wou Id pay their ` 24 Q There is no kind of Sroup 25 A Not so far as I am aw are, tne Care 26 Industri es itself wj * 1 pe; 27 Q I unders "oan a that, ye c s ' tre tax v m no. be paid on a 23 group fo rib, one for cove .* c-" -ince C ' ' V~; C c c n P '-It 29 Industri es, cr do y ou kno 30 A Cape Ira user ies wii n pay :ax H <; k o acquired as a resvl.iu_ ;s pro: i ^ <-- J 101 1 6 1 . - n companies. 2 Q Is there any consolidation of tax forms within the group? 3 A I don't know. 4 Q Do you have tne comparable of the American social security 5 in Eng? and? 6 A Yes, I believe so, but if you pursue your questions ... 7 A wage wit hi.olding kind of program that is sponsored by 8 Government. 9 A That's right , yes. 0. How is that handled for the group? 11 A Each company handles its own affairs here. 12 Q Each company handles its own withholding'. 15 A Yes. Each c~mpany handles its own wage bill, ana tr.at 14 where the wi thi.olding takes place. 15 r thv at is my next quest:-on. Payrolls are not prepares in 16 central place? 17 Nc . 1 Viaat about your insurance? Do you purcnas to ->, rw\1'O"-.--*-> v' e v ' 19 under what w would call a group policy? 20 A So far as I r, aware, insurance is handled inaivir.uaj.uy. 21 r Do you have .at we Americans refe: to as workmen's compensatic: 22 . - . - * 0 w i-. - . ce, ' it is covering on the jcb injuries for employees? 23 L Yes, we d c . 24 K3 BERKAYS pi. :cuse me: you are using the term ir. a different o sense. As :! understand it, here it is employers' liability: 26 there is no workmen's compensation insurance per so. 27 rA\ It wcul d be covered by the withholding that you re f e m e " 23 your t'ar lie rat : T S il. . - '- -- O -L C iw O' U/ vi >n pi ^ 1 30 your enta ov 1 A It would be done in the same manner, i am using one woi-u 2 ''withholding" in the same sense that I understood Mr Baldwin 3 was. 4 Q, I can understand that. 5 A I wanted to make sure I am not in trouble with Mr Bexxic-ys, 6 Mr Baldwin. . 7 Q, That is not important. 8 A When I say ''withholding' , I mean that the company has ^he 9 authority to retain something from the wages that it pays 10 an employee. That is what I mean by withholding. A,. - 11 trouble over saying that? 12 MR PENNA: No. It is the National Insurance for pensions ana 13 so forth, not for employers' liability. 14 I didn't think Mr Bald'.'in was referring to employers' liabili' r<*. 15 insurance. 16 MR BERNAYS: That is what he was referring tc when ne calls it 17 workmen's compensation. We have a distinct-on. 18 A We need an interpreter, don't we? 19 MR BERNAYS: Yes. It is aim; 20 Now if yoia want to go ahe: 21 A Have I sa:id some V->ir.g tha 22 MR BERNAYS: N o, or.li in con: 23 Workmen 1s cornpen sa tio:n s -- 24 liability , there s a c -w. O*. w - F tt-iT T :ountr y 25 A I see wha t you m - J y e s . 26 MR BERNAYS: I didn. 1X w w a ^ . . x. X/ x_ L/ mislead him. 27 MR BALDWIN: Doctor1 > we will straighten it cu- Vl.at vcu h a w ?R me is tin.CL^ this 2c withheld from to.6 emplove .^ 1 :Iies ^ v OS* 0 ( 1 A That's right. 2 Q Which is a kind of sick anc health insurance? 3 A It was that that I assumed you were referring to. 4 Q That is what you were referring to? 5 A Yes. 6 C Now I want tc ask you: That is done on an individual basis 7 with each company? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Now, as to your employers' liability insurance, that covers 10 cr. the O~V A-4-T'* 11 A Yes. 12 Q Is that bo 13 A I believe so. 14 Q My ques tion t se is: Is this one policy tnat handles all 15 employees for the group within England, or is tn_s a separate 16 policy for each company? 17 A So far as I am aware - is this right, Tony? - each company 16 handles this individually. 19 ME PENT'A : Yes, as far as I am awarree, 20 ME. _E)waN r A_i separate pojj..--iciieess,. Well, ' 21 scheme with reference t =ny -ype of ins' ua your companies have is .at each company 23 policies depending upon their needs? 24 A IX , 1 P -v,A r-V. - O to to words, there is no central y->->o iptsp... of insurance? A No. 27 Mr. 3ALTN T>?. Would you like to ask me any questions? 28 i' Mo BEEN.- YS : toater. y ! * rrps r w cr -- r-r-- difficult cuestic r- you have asked me. I feel zrv . V cx- 1- ansv.'er is Yes, but 1 don t know what questions to ask yc i MR BALDWIN: I think if you give us about live minuues uo i;o:..e: 2 with each other, possibly we have finished. 3 MR O'CONNOR: Could I ask you one question, Doctor, please? 4 I think you have told us that Cape Asbestos Fibres and North 5 American Asbestos are the selling arms for EGNE? or for 6 Cape Asbestos (South Africa)? _ /r-- A They are two of the selling arms. 8 Q What are the other selling arms? 9 A There is one other merchant to whom asbestos is sold directly 10 by ESNEP, and he sells asbestcs in another area. 11 Q xs he related to Cape Industries in any way? 12 A No, in no way at all. 13 Q Does Cape Industries do any selling x*0"10 EGNE? or for Cape 14 Asbestos (South Africa)? 15 A N c . 16 (A short recess was then talien) 17 THE WITNESS: I felt that it was perhaps desirable m a t sncuia 13 amplify one point about which you questioned me yesterday, 19 and that concerns the extent of knowledge tha^ c.--- ste^ -- m - 20 scientific and medical community about the haoaras associa^e^ 21 with breathing asbestcs dust. You askei me yesterac^ v.:e.. 22 I first was told or first realised that there were nasaras 3 associated with the use of asbestos, and x tola you, cy-- c 24 correctly, that this was on the first day tr.at _ w-c _n^er\_ewe~ 25 or employed by Cape Asbestos as it was then. - ---- 4 =- 26 I should make 1 clear that this is a questicr V c T V TTTvI C X 0 1 27 .ge of thes e hazards and their e x t ext .r:r: a 23 view. The re' 1 knov.ledge of ": ; . r 29 .sbest os an d h ea11h rea11y h a1 "* ~~ a- mv*- IE C 30 Os j v\* a c -- kc-<r V. a ,i%r 'v \ c *"* i ote c: 1 2 3 n 5 6 7 6 Q 10 11 12 13 1*15 1 C 17 15 i 19 20 21 22 2$ 24 25 26 ^ ; c/ ! | OS : WW , 29 ! ulie country. rc.cui^ I Joined Cape 10 years later than this, and at this time clearly there was a knowledge of the hazards associated with asbestos about wnich I enquired, and the people Tor whom I worked, the senior people in the company at that time, told me - and I am satisfied that they were answering honestly - that the haza-ds had been largely overcome as a result of the precautions which were being taker, in trie light, o* the newT regulations. I first walked through the factory at Barking where these products were being made 10 years after this -n 1943'. I do knew something about handling hazardous materials. In all mv career 1 have been concerned witn hazardous mai,eric.-.s. In fact most of my experience in this direction has been handling far more hazardous materials than asbestos. I was employee during the war in the production of chemical warfare agents which were, as I say, a great deal more hazardous than asbestos. hex I first waIked through t; plant at Barking I certainly ._w-. not get the n v^.o C** i?rrom a subjective print cl v^ew 11- V there was any hazard for and I would quite happily have worked for long hours m those plants myself. If we go or. 10 yea1r-r.c from that to the ikpO s, tz period between 11rJ' ~nd 195C, there was very cor.sid p , V* p, p . activity in the asbestos industry, and this was largely concerned wTith modernising plants which had been clapped out (if you are familiar with the expression) during the war, when there were long working hours involved. The plants v\cr rcccr.ditioxed.} bxev v;ere extended, ar.d rr.ucx oetter ecuiprier. - beearr.e available ibr exhausting air ircr txe plants. I !1 \v ' r ; C :: . ; k h ' ,, i -- -C;r - ; : 1 2 j 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 1? IB < o ' 20 c./\ 22 23 24 25 26 27 23 ' 1~--Q ;^n^ !i i V we had much better working conditions. There is now no question of that; and I would have said, if you had been questioning me in 1953 or 1950, "Our plants are now in very good shape indeed". But I think the period between 1953 - let's take 10 year intervals - and 1963 was a period of much more intensive and medical research, and the great progress tnat was made in this industry during the 196C''s was in medical questions and in diagnosis. Vast strides forward were made then in acquiring new knowledge. This is tne reason why I formed the view at the time anc acvisea many people that they shot 2d get medical consultants, because tr.is is where the knowledge and the expertise wo.-Id come. This would be tne sharp end. Tne result of this is that by the 19o0's we were a great deal more knowledgeable about working oond_ . We in the industry - when I say "we", I mean tne incus ..rj as a whole - did have the difficulty, from a scientist's point c: view the extreme difficulty, cf having tc aea_ v,_~n & which had been caused perhaps 15 or 20 years before, co to some extent when we get a case of asbestos!s - 1 say t o some extent"; when we got a case of asbestosis - this would be as a result of working conditions some 15 years oeoore, ar.^ this has been, I believe, the great difficulty in cur industry, that we have not known, when we nave taker, a s^ep, t=^...e... po which it was going to be effective. In consequence of this, our knowledge na^ .r.ercase- slowly, and as a result of, I believe, tne work wnior. r.a carried out in most recent years, we nave now got rp_aem_c_- 1 information, and we now have got more accurate metnoos o~ 2 measuring dust concentrations in the air, and we have at last 3 achieved the possibility of a much better system of control. 4 It is always possible, of course, that our knowledge is -still 5 not complete by any means, and it is possible tr.at if I had been speaking to you here 10 years ago I would have said something very much the same as what I am b b \j.rg now; bu^ 6 I do want to make it quite clear to you that our knowledge G of this very serious regrettable situation has only increased y 10 slowly. MR BALDWIN': Have you finished? 12 A Thank you. 13 Q, Along those lines, you said that in England the impact cf 14 the problems with asbestos really came to the front -n ^ne 15 1930's. 16 A T h a t 's right. 17 Q And largely as a result of medical work cone oy and reports 16 written by Dr. Msrewether? 19 A T h a t 's right. 20 Q You are familiar with thos^? 21 A Yes. 22 0, And have been familiar with those reports cf Dr. Merewether 23 since the 1950's* Is this true? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Regardless of the strides that have been made, it has been c. o known to you and to the others in the industry that asbestos 27 and working around asbestos can cause a condition of asoestc A This is true; but I wanted to emphasize that this is a cu^stion of demree. 30 <L 3 1 Q 2 3 A And I just wanted to make it clear that by wnat you saio you don't want to imply that you didn't have the knowledge ^.n the 1 9 5 0's. V,Te had a certain amount of knowledge. Regre_taL-y, we dj.cn ^ 5 have enough. 6 Q Regardless cf the amour.t that you hac, you k^ev* _ 7 There were elements of knowledge, clesray, -s. 8 I am talking about you now. 9 A Which ;;ere available to me ar.d were ava:'1able to hV r- W. 4 W A.1 L A w i str'V and s:va ilable to everyone who used the rr WaAUuVO*V-W I arn ta Iking iabout your know 1edge. 12 A Yes. 13 V In th i 1930's you had hhe Innowledge, yo' 1 LA as an i:nei vi c'ur"1? '4 that asbestos could cause to people who V'.' ;ree uired to wo:sk 15 aroun w J 4 - p condition 0f asbestosi s , ci 'wLw,,.UU yc La,<*.> i. 1 / w-i l t d 15 A Wha t T Will say, hr Bal dw >*' JcO *U-*V.vwr.V --" ViPC Pv:are that 1/ preca U tions h ad to be tak 6T- .n the hand 11.ng c .sueste c 18 What T did nc X rCUOW S.u c_. ^ i 1;ime - let c say an the mi *-O,,-m0 ' - 19 1 s tn.at. I did not lesovi a r . V t5Ii2_r.g liV:e as V ;ell as I do V:a . r * 20 r.ovs vna-- 7Uh-*o entent of x - V - .cse tree aut ion c should be ~r c'pcui W* w 21 have be 22 e _t am nc'.--l/ xiv C^ . -- n -.:ing about y- ecautions now. T --: t:i_nar.g ac ;u~ 23 the effect of asbestos. Yov knew then the 24 2p5 ! 25 disease cf asbestosis? I knew then that inhaling asbestos dust could cause a; estos: Y<"e have nreviouslv desori neo asbestoses ^rs v/^rus^ , -* 27 V. _L C/. .W .X W Si Cx. ^ pa Vi - r~ a n l r r r v,r ' ? f ' PQ 1 4. ws Uwi rUC Ovs . > \ G ii fS - * 1 Yes, but I would repeat that what I did not know, as - urow 2 today, was the extent or the concentrations of asbestos dust wh_ci 3 could be regarded as hazardous. 4 But you did know that ---- ' 5 A I knew, for example, that the kinds of condition that my 6 colleagues t that time who had worked before the 1933 r* v at ions described to me as oeing the cone- n o n s -- ohe 8 industry, 1 knew, I could see, that these conditions couiu 9 cause asbestosis. 10 Q Sc, then, you knew that the conditions as they existea tnen, 11 if not corrected, could cause asbestosis? 12 f mT;he conditions as they existed before 1933s> yes, of wnich 13 1 had no experience, but which had been describee to me ertv 14 clearly. o. what were those conditions? 16 The descriptions that were given to me in a general sense 17 were conditions in which the asbestos dus^ aro^..c some 16 machines v;as so thick that you cou_d not see yo-r n^ic 19 stretched cut in front of your face. T m s was ^ne t-- n~. t- 20 description that was given to me of the conditions existing. 21 Q , And unfortunately you k.ew that tnese working c o m cr.s woulc 22 continue to exist throughout the world for a p e n o a o-- U y 23 that they wouldn't be changed overnignt? 2^ r .-v No, but this vras 10 years later that it was descnoec. me, and, of course, there wrere war-time conditions, toe, --v -- olved 2:' here, where there were very long wTo r k m g nouns. ~ nr cvr r.ow with hindsight that there were people exposes curing ` n c war 28 who were being subjected to as much danger as people wh o were *-- A ^ 1 Q, People exposed to asbestos? 2 A T h a t 's right. 3 Q But the point I am making, and I want to make it clear, 4 ic the extent of your knowledge as to the effects of asbestos 5 was suer that beginning with the 1 9 5 0 's and through the i960 s 6 and into the 1 9 7 0 's you realised that it was a dangerous ^ 7 material to work around? 8 A Yes, but I want to make my position quite clear on this, 9 Mr Baldwin. I realised that precautions neeaec to oe taken 10 in the handling of this material. What I realise rev; _ was 11 in error about was the extent of the precautions which needed 12 tc be taken. 13 q What precautions do you feel should have been taker, tha^ 14 were not when you look back? 13 A With hindsight, 1 believe that our siting of dust exhaust / # IO machinery was not sufficient to reduce the concentration of 17 asbestos dust in the atmosphere to a sufficient-;- low revei. 18 Q But what I am asking you is you don t i: 19 that you have just recently come upon the kr 20 asbestos can cause the condi tion of asbestos 21 No. 1 knew that asbestos, improperly handled, coulc cause 22 asbestesis, or breathing asbestos dust at too 23 for too lor.m a time could cause asbestesis. _ nave ki.cwr. tr.i: 24 since the first cay _ was employed. 25 Q All right. You h ave defined asbestesis yesterday, haven't you? You d o n 't _Li...*rCv~'^ to change that definition? 27 A No. 28 KR BALDW-N: T n 2.V6 nothing else. 29 MR BERNAYS: Are you. through? 30 MR O'CONNOR: Ves. Affidavit of Anthony John Penna sworn before me the CvpVtfi day ^f nVjvlfc 15 A Notary Public AC. . . --.!t ri<J ' ` Z ' 'V r~ ^ ~ |^ -n x j ~ v i-' * J. >W ; . -< . 'i Z.\ '> . C v . / >r! 'xr:vt .t M Z.;^. IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT ' FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF T E A S TYLER DECISION HERMAN YANDLE, et al., Plaintiff s vs. PPG INDUSTRIES INC., et al., Defendants x Civil Action No. TY-74-- 3-CA x IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS TYLER D I M SION LESTER KAY (And all Intervening PlairnifiO vs. PPG INDUSTRIES, INC., et a Civil Acvion No.TY-7U-13-CA x n Q Dr. Gaze, I believe you mentioned the British regulations or. 2 asbestosis as having beer, promulgated in 19331 3 A Yes. 4 q Could it possibly have been 1931 that they were promuxgated: 5 A It could be, yes. 6 Q You are not certain about that? 7 A I am no: certain. 1931. Thank you. e MR HERNAYSr T h a t 's all we have. 9 A But, cf course, in the light of later knowledge they were 10 revised in 196$ \ i MR BALDWIN: Dr. Gaze, thank you for letting us impose upoi 12 time. You were very co-operative. 13 A hot at all. Thank you ,,or t.sxng i 14 13 The foregoing deposition 16 having been taken down in shorthand, and afterwards transcribed, was 17 read ever by the witness and subscribed to on the h- day 16 --*r` ` r~- ^ *t*"7-- 19 2C I, Walter H. Clark, cf Harry Counsel! & Co., 21 6l, Carey Street, London, viln 4<JG , England, a Mem: 22 the Institute cf Shorthar Writers, hereby cer tify foregoing deposition of r HARD GAZ S is a true and 25 24 of all Questions asked ar answers made of the c H 25 . ,' " n. 14 26 w .r.. 27 23 29 X ^