Document QJn3DjZ8Mr3OMKmxQb4j9Gq68

1 1 IN THE COMMONWEALTH OF PENNSYLVANIA * 2 PENNSYLVANIA DEPARTMENT OF : GENERAL SERVICES, : 3 PENNSYLVANIA DEPARTMENT : OF TRANSPORTATION, : 4 PENNSYLVANIA PUBLIC : UTILITY COMMISSION, : 5 PENNSYLVANIA EMERGENCY : MANAGEMENT AGENCY and : 6 PENNSYLVANIA DEPARTMENT : O F S TATE : 7 Plaintiffs, : NO. 284 M.D. 1990 vs. 8 UNITED STATES MINERAL PRODUCTS COMPANY, 9 CERTAINTEED CORPORATION, COURTAULDS AEROSPACE, 10 INC., CHEMREX, INC., PHILIPS ELECTRONICS 11 NORTHAMERICA CORPORATION, ADVANCE 12 TRANSFORMER COMPANY and MONSANTO COMPANY, 13 Defendants. : : : : : : : : : : : : 14 BEFORE THE HONORABLE CHARLE S P . M I RAR C H I t JR . 15 * k Frida y t M a r c h 1 7 r 2 0 0 0 16 * * Mo ti on s a rgume n ts and 17 t e sit m o n y held a t C i ty H a 1 i r C o u r t r o o m 4 53 , P h i i a d e 1 p h i a r P e n n s y i V a n i a 19 10 7 18 c o m m e n c i n g at 9 0 0 a . m f o n t h e above d a t e , b e f ore Li n d a R o s s i R i o s , a 19 F e d e r a 1 1 y Appro V e d R e g i s t e r e d P r o f e s s i o n a 1 Re P o r t e r a n d N o t a r y Pub 1 i 20 o f t h e C o m m o n w e a 1 t h o f P e n n s y i V a n i a . * k * 21 E S QUIRE DE P O S I T ION S E R V I CE S 22 1 5th F 1 o o r 1 8 8 0 John F . K e n n e d y B o u 1 e v a r d 23 P h i 1 a d e 1 p h i a r P e n n s y 1 V a n i a 19 10 3 ( 2 15) 988- 9191 24 ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMON0060836 1 APPEARANCES: 2 HUMPHREY, FARRINGTON & MCCLAIN, P.C. 3 BY: KENNETH B. MCCLAIN, ESQUIRE 221 West Lexington, Suite 400 4 Independence, Missouri 64051 (816) 836-5050 5 Counsel for the Plaintiff 6 LAW OFFICES OF THOMAS W. HENDERSON BY: THOMAS W. HENDERSON, ESQUIRE 7 One Oxford Centre, Suite 3975 301 Grant Street Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania 15219 (412) 261-6475 Counsel for Plaintiff DANAHER, TEDFORD, LAGNESE & NEAL BY: KENNETH R. NEAL, ESQUIRE 700 Capitol Place 21 Oak Street Hartford, Connecticut 06106 (860) 247-3666 Counsel for Defendant, United States Mineral Products Company 14 HOYLE, MORRIS & KERR, LLP 15 BY: SUSAN HERSCHEL, ESQUIRE One liberty Place, Suite 4900 16 1650 Market Street Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103 17 (215) 981-5700 Counsel for Defendant, 18 Certainteed Corporation 19 MONTGOMERY, MCCRACKEN, WALKER & RHOADS, LLP 20 BY: JOYCE S. MEYERS, ESQUIRE 123 South Broad Street 21 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19109 (215) 772-1500 22 Counsel for Defendant, Courtaulds Aerospace, Inc. 23 24 4 1 2 INDEX 3 WITNESS PAGE NO. 4 JOHNWOODYARD 5 By Mr. Neal 5 6 By Mr. Goutman 81 7 8 EXHIBITS 9 NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE NO. 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 4 9 1 APPEARANCES (con't.) 2 WHITE & WILLIAMS BY: THOMAS M. GOUTMAN, ESQUIRE 3 1800 One Liberty Place, 18th Floor 1650 Market Street 4 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19102 (215) 864-7000 5 Counsel for Defendant, Monsanto Corporation 6 7 -----8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 1 MR. EDGE: In the name of 2' the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, 3 this Commonwealth Court is now 4 declared open. The Honorable 5 Charles P. Mirarchi, Jr. 6 presiding. Please be seated. 7 Good morning, Your Honor. 8 THE COURT: Good morning. 9 MR. NEAL: Your Honor, I 10 think Mr. Woodyard is on the stand 11 under cross-examination. 12 THE COURT: Mr. Woodyard may 13 take the stand. 14 MR. EDGE: Just state your 15 name and spell your last name for 16 the record, sir. 17 THE WITNESS: John Woodyard, 18 W-O-O-D-Y-A-R-D. 19 MR. EDGE: I remind you, 20 you are still under oath. 21 22 CROSS-EXAMINATION 23 24 BY MR. NEAL: 3 Is ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMON0060837 s 68 1 Q. Good morning, Mr. Woodyard. 1 Building? 2 A. Good morning. 2 A. I don't recall. 3 MR. NEAL: Good morning, 3 Q. Did you have any of the bulk i 4 ladies and gentlemen. 4 samples done by the State? 5 THE JURORS: Good morning. 5 A. I had probably at that point 6 MR. NEAL: I'm not going to 6 reviewed at least a large part of the J 7 leave you out, good morning, Your 7 State's data. 8 Honor. 8 Q. And had you come to any 9 BY MR. NEAL: 9 conclusions at that time? 10 Q. Mr. Woodyard, when was it 10 A. I can't recall to be honest 11 that you first visited the Transportation 11 with you. 12 and Safety Building, do you recall? 12 Q. When you went out to the 13 A. I believe it was in early 13 Transportation and Safety Building, did 14 1997. I can't remember the exact date. 14 you have anything in mind? Did you draw 15 Q. And what were you contacted 15 any conclusions before you stepped into 16 to do? 16 that building? 17 A. By whom? 17 A. That's a pretty broad 18 Q. I assume you didn't just go 18 question. I really don't know. 19 out there on a lark. Someone contacted 19 Q. You don't remember? 20 you to ask you to do something. Is that 20 A. No, I don't. 21 correct? 21 Q. When you went out to the 22 A. Oh, of course not. Yes, I 22 Transportation and Safety Building, you 23 was at that point getting acquainted with 23 said you had gotten yourself acquainted 24 the case and took the opportunity to go 24 with the case. Did you have an objective 79 1 visit the building and get acquainted 1 as to what you were going to do, for 2 with the building. 2 instance, am I going there to see if in 3 0. When you say you got 3 fact fire spread the PCBs? Ami going 4 acquainted with the case, what did you 4 there to see whether PCBs were contained 5 get acquainted with? 5 in certain products? Just exactly what 6 A. The case. The issues 6 did you have in mind? 7 associated with what we're here about. 7 A. I don't know that it was 8 Q. And what did you understand 8 that specific. Again, we looked at light 9 the issues to be before you stepped foot 9 fixtures and duct work. Looked at the 10 in the Transportation and Safety 10 general layout of the building. Looked 11 Building? 11 at places where samples had been 12 A. That there had been a fire 12 collected so that I could relate the data 13 and that there had been PCBs found in the 13 to what I was reading about. Just a 14 building. And that there were PCB 14 pretty much standard- :J 15 containing products burned in the fire. 15 Q. You didn't have in mind when 16 Q. Did you have an objective 16 you went out there, hey, I know that the 17 when you went out there for your visit? 17 PCBs were spread by fire and they didn't 18 A. My personal one was more or 18 volatilize. You didn't go out there with 19 less to get acquainted with the facility, 19 that pre-conceived idea. Is that 20 having not seen it before, but by having 20 correct? 21 read about it a little bit at that point. 21 A. I can't recall. 22 Q. Prior to going out there, 22 Q. Did you have in mind when 23 what material did you have that related 23 you went out there whether you were going 24 to the Transportation and Safety 24 to sample or not and did you design a ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ60838 10 1 plan to do any kind of sampling? 2 A. No, no. At that point, I 3 clearly wasn't planning to take samples 4 during the visit. 5 Q. Why? 6 A. Because I hadn't completed 7 the review of all the sampling data that 8 was available. 9 Q. Didn't you want to have your 10 own sampling data to alter review to 11 compare what you had read from the State? 12 A. No, not necessarily. 13 Q. When you went out there, and 14 you looked, you say you walked around on 15 all the floors. Is that correct? 16 A. I think I said I went to a 17 number of floors. I don't recall how 18 many. But the floors above and below the 19 fire floors as they're called. 20 Q. Do you know how many floors 21 you actually walked through? 22 A No. I would say most. I 23 don't know what that means, but almost 24 all of them I would say including the 12 1 A. Yes, the few times when we 2 poked out the ceiling tiles and looked 3 inside to see what was there, what was 4 the general condition and configuration. 5 Q. Did you talk with anybody 6 there at the Transportation and Safety 7 Building? 8 A I don't recall talking to 9 anybody. You mean about the building 10 itself? 11 Q. Yes. 12 A. I can't recall offhand. 13 Q. Did you go with anybody? 14 A. I was there with a number of 15 other people associated with the case who 16 were looking more at construction aspects 17 of the building than the environmental 18 issues. 19 Q. And who were they? 20 A. I can't recall. I think 21 that question was asked before in my 22 deposition and I remembered Mr. DeChiara 23 being one of them. I couldn't remember 24 the other individuals. >1 i ii 1 basement. 2 Q. You walked through the 3 basement? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Did you look at the HVAC 6 system? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. And there was a separate 9 HVAC system for, was it, the first, 10 ground -- the first floor, the ground 11 floor and the basement? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And it had separate air 14 handling units. Is that correct? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Now, you walked around and 17 you said that on a couple of floors you 18 went above the ceiling. Is that correct? 19 A. Yes. Yes, I did. 20 Q. And other than looking 21 around, I think your testimony was for 22 about a minute, that's the only time you 23 were above the floor. Is that correct? 24 Excuse me, above the ceiling. 13 1 Q. Did you look at any plans 2 and specifications in connection with the 3 building? 4 A. Not at that time, no. 5 Q. Subsequently you did? 6 A. Yes, I have. 7 Q. And did you take notes while 8 you were at the building? 9 A. I don't really recall. 10 Q. You certainly don't have 11 them here. Is that correct? 12 A. No, I don't. 13 Q. When you came back after 14 going through that walk-through, what is 15 the next step that you did as far as this 16 case is concerned? 17 A. I suspect at the time I had 18 not reviewed the piles of information 19 that were available to me, and I 20 continued to do that review. 21 Q. With what objective in mind? 22 Were you asked to do something specific? 23 Were you asked to investigate something 24 specific to arrive at certain # ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES i TOWOLDMONOQ60839 14 16 1 conclusions? 1 A. Yes, I believe so. 2 A. Well, as a PCB cleanup 2 Q. And that was in connection 3 expert, I was asked to review the PCB 3 with looking through the refuse. Is that 4 cleanup aspects of this particular 4 correct? 5 project. So I was looking at the PCB 5 A. Yes. It was actually 6 data, of course, the layout of the 6 looking at the sixth floor and 7 building, how smoke may have moved 7 particularly looking at the bags of u 8 through the building. Looked at 8 burned up building debris and the like 9 videotapes, photographs, things of that 9 that were still there. 10 nature, to get acquainted with the 10 Q. And when you sat down to 11 incident and what had been found out by 11 write your report, what other information 12 the sampling results after the incident. 12 did you have besides the State's data and 13 Q. And at that particular time 13 Mr. Kominsky's data? 14 you didn't have Mr. Kominsky's results. 14 A. What specific information 15 Is that correct? 15 are you looking for? *1 16 A. I don't believe so. 16 Q. The information that you 17 THE COURT: You did not have 17 utilized in writing the report. You had 18 Mr. -- 18 to write your report, so you had to have 19 MR. NEAL: He did not have 19 information on which to base it? 20 Mr. Kominsky's results. 20 A. Yes, that's correct. 21 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection. If 21 Q. Beside from the State's data 22 we could have a clarification by 22 and Mr. Kominsky's data which you 23 what he means by what point in 23 ultimately received, what other 24 time. 24 information did you have? # 15 17 1 BY MR. NEAL: 1 A. Some of the sampling results ' 2 Q. Right after going to the 2 that we talked about that I had analyzed 3 Transportation and Safety Building. The 3 by our lab. They were included in the 4 next day. You didn't have Mr. Kominsky's 4 report. 5 results. Correct? 5 Q. And those were samples that 6 A. I don't think so. I 6 were received by, I say you, by Monsanto 7 received a fax of those results at some 7 and Certainteed and that you had 8 point and later received of course his 8 analyzed. Correct? 9 report. 9 A. Yes. That's correct. 10 Q. The fax of those results 10 Q. Those weren't samples that 11 came sometime towards the end of 1998. 11 you took? 12 Correct? 12 A. No. They were pre-fire 13 A. I can't recall. 13 samples that we discussed last time I was ;, Ji 14 Q. And you got his report in 15 January of '99. Is that correct? 14 here. 15 Q. And had you arrived -- when 16 A. I don't remember the exact 16 did you arrive at your opinion that the 17 date. 17 PCBs were spread by fire as opposed to 18 Q. From the time that you went 18 volatilization? 19 there, to the Transportation and Safety 19 A. I don't recall the exact 20 Building, on the first occasion, until 20 date. It was of course before I wrote my 21 the time that you rendered your report, 21 report. 22 you only went back to the Transportation 22 Q. And in writing your report, 23 and Safety Building one more time. Is 23 I think you told us last time that you 24 that correct? 24 referred to Dr. Erickson's book. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMON0060840 18 1 Correct? 2 A. Perhaps. Perhaps. I don't 3 think I cited it. I may have used it for 4 some of the numbers that were contained 5 in his tabular information. That's about 6 it. 7 Q. So you're talking about in 8 connection with vapor pressures and 9 vaporization? 10 A. That's correct. 11 Q. But other than that, you 12 didn't use it? 13 A. No. 14 Q. As a matter of fact, you 15 didn't use any other reference book. Is 16 that correct? 17 A. No, I don't think I did. 18 Q. And did you do a literature 19 search in connection with making sure 20 that the opinion that you were arriving 21 at was based upon sound science? 22 A. No, I didn't. I didn't feel 23 I needed to. 24 Q. So that you sat down with 20 1 just cleaning things. 2 Q. So again, if I can be more 3 precise, had you the information from the 4 State, you had Mr. Kominsky's data, you 5 had samples collected by someone else and 6 then you wrote your report? 7 A Yes, I believe that's 8 correct. 9 Q. At any time from the time 10 you went to the T&S Building the first 11 time in '97 until the time you wrote your 12 report, did you request to do any kind of 13 sampling of any nature? 14 A No, I did not. 15 Q. Did you want to verify the 16 results of the sampling by the State by 17 taking your own samples? 18 A No, I didn't feel the need 19 to do that. 20 Q. And in connection with that, 21 why didn't you feel - you felt there 22 were enough test sampling done that you 23 could rely upon that? 24 A. Absolutely. 4 i # 1a 19 1 the information you had which was the 2 State's data, Mr. Kominsky's data, and 3 samples that you had received from 4 actually came from the plaintiffs' 5 through Mr. Goutman's office and then on 6 to your lab. Is that correct? 7 A. Yes, that's correct. 8 Q. And other than that, you 9 didn't have any other information whether 10 by research, testing or otherwise. Is 11 that correct? 12 A. Well, not formally, but as I 13 said before, having worked on projects 14 like the T&S Building for some twenty or 15 more years, I have a lot of background 16 and experience. 17 Q. And those projects are 18 mostly in the area of cleanup which is 19 your specialty. Is that correct? 20 A. Cleanup in its broadest 21 sense certainly, but that would include 22 source identification as we discussed 23 earlier. A number of different aspects 24 associated with different cleanup, not 21 1 Q. And when you got that, did 2 you make sure that it had the necessary 3 data validation packages along with it? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. So you reviewed all of 6 those? 7 A. A lot of them. I don't know 8 how many. 9 Q. And you indicated at the 10 time of your testimony last time, that 11 you had done some calculations with 12 regard to how much could have vaporized 13 from the ductboard during the heat 14 sealing process. Correct? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. At the time you wrote your 17 report, you didn't include that, did you? 18 A. No. 19 Q. At the time you wrote your 20 report, you hadn't done that calculation? 21 A. That's correct. 22 Q. At the time your deposition 23 was taken in January of 2000, you hadn't 24 done the calculation. Correct? # i ESQUIRE DE POSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ60841 ] 22 24 1 A. No, that's correct. 1 A. Yes. Yes, sir. 2 Q. And you did the calculation 2 Q. And this is dated August 21, 3 before you came into court when you were 3 1995. And he has certain tables in the 4 cross-examined by me. Is that correct? 4 back, does he not? 5 A. Yes, shortly after my 5 A. Yes. 6 deposition. 6 Q. In which they summarize the 7 Q. You also indicated in your 7 data. Is that correct? 8 testimony that one of the things that you 8 A. Yes. 9 noticed that, according to you, if there 9 Q. And he has, does he not, on 10 were volatilization, you would expect a 10 Table 6, which is page 20, Your Honor. U 11 kind of uniformity in the PCBs. Is that 11 Are you with me, Mr. Woodyard? 12 correct? 12 A. Yes, I am. 13 A. Yes. As the whole 13 MR. NEAL: Your Honor, I'm 14 off-gassing process was characterized by 14 petrified, but I'm going to ask 15 Mr. Kominsky. 15 Mr. Henderson to work the machine. 16 Q. And if it were spread, that 16 THE COURT: This exhibit 17 is, the PCBs were spread by smoke, it 17 does not refer to PennDOT. It 18 would be more chaotic, is that correct, 18 says Penn 0996 and from the 19 and random? 19 Department of Health and Human 20 A. Yes. That's correct. 20 Services to Mr. Jannetta who is 21 Q. You did review the State's 21 the Secretary of the Department of 22 data in connection with the bulk sampling 22 General Services. 23 they took. Is that correct? 23 MR. NEAL: It may be 24 A. Yes, I did. 24 referred to as Penn Exhibit 996. t 23 25 1 Q. And that was contained, as a 1 THE COURT: I didn't want 2 matter of fact, in Mr. Jannetta's letter, 2 the record to be confused by 3 was it not? 3 having PennDOT. And the exhibit 4 A. Yes. 4 does not evidence DOT, Department 5 Q. Do you have that letter with 5 of Transportation. 6 you? 6 BY MR. NEAL: 7 A. No, I don't. 7 Q. Mr. Woodyard, before we 8 MR. NEAL: Your Honor, I'm 8 start talking about this particular 9 handing Mr. Woodyard PennDOT 996. 9 exhibit, your theory is that the fire 10 Does Your Honor have a copy of 10 caused the burning of the duct work 11 that? We've had this about 37 11 thereby releasing the 1262s from the 12 times. 12 adhesive and then that was carried 13 THE COURT: I'm sure in the 13 throughout the building. Is that 14 global phase of this case we have 14 correct? 15 it. 15 A. Well, actually it's a fact # . -J 16 BY MR. NEAL: 16 that the duct containing 1262 mid the 17 Q. Attached to the letter from 17 light ballast containing 1242 were burned 18 Alan Echt, he's from the Department of 18 in the fire and carried with the smoke 19 Health and Human Services, is that 19 throughout the building. 20 correct, which is part of NIOSH? 20 Q. And when you say carried by # 21 A. Yes, that's correct. 21 smoke, would I be correct that the 22 Q. And NIOSH is writing to Mr. 22 biggest area of contamination would be 23 Jannetta who is the Secretary of 23 occurring on the fire floor? Is that 24 Department of General Services. Correct? 24 correct? ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ60842 26 1 A. One would certainly expect 2 the contamination levels to be higher on 3 the sixth floor. 4 Q. And you might expect that 5 they would be higher maybe even on the 6 floor below and the floor above. Is that 7 correct? 8 A. Well, that's really hard to 9 say given that the smoke was rising 10 initially before it was redistributed to 11 the building. The floor below it 12 probably would not have been contacted 13 directly by the fire. 14 Q. So you say the smoke is 15 rising, which even a moron like myself 16 can understand that, smoke rises. 17 Correct? And as it rises, it goes to the 18 floors above the fire floor. Correct? 19 A. Yes, until the point that 20 it's redistributed by the ventilation 21 system or other avenues. 22 Q. But the biggest areas of 23 contamination would be the fire floor one 24 would expect plus maybe several of the 28 1 ventilation system certainly was an 2 avenue, but also there were conduits. 3 There were elevator shafts. There were 4 other ways it could move up and down. 5 And it could pick floors based on factors 6 we don't understand. 7 Q. So it could, as you talked 8 about it, be random. It could pick 9 floors, there might be less 10 contamination, it could pick other 11 floors, there might be more 12 contamination? 13 A. That's correct. 14 Q. And with fire, you wouldn't 15 expect, as you have testified, a 16 uniformity; it would be more chaotic as 17 you explained, some floors it picked, 18 some floors it didn't? 19 A. That's correct. There's no 20 way to predict, so you would expect some 21 variation between the levels you find on 22 each floor. 23 Q. Now, if we look at Table 6 24 and it has the mean. Is that correct? ' 5f fcd 27 1 floors above that, but as you get up in 2 the floors, there shouldn't be as high a 3 contamination as you have on the sixth 4 floor or the fifth floor or the seventh 5 floor. Correct? Normally? 6 A. Well, again, since we don't 7 know exactly how the smoke was 8 distributed, you've seen the video and 9 you've seen how the smoke moved its way 10 up and then down in the building, it went 11 through a variety of avenues, so there's 12 no sure way to determine in theory where 13 the highest levels would be. 14 Q. But normally, under normal 15 circumstances, smoke is being spread, 16 it's rising, the biggest area would be 17 the immediate area where the fire 18 occurred and maybe the next couple of 19 floors, but as you get going farther and 20 farther away, you should not have as much 21 contamination. Is that correct? 22 A. Not necessarily. Because 23 again we don't know how the smoke chose 24 to move through the building. The 29 1 THE COURT: Could you keep 2 your voice up? Was there 3 something that was said that the 4 Court did not hear? I heard 5 conversation. 6 MR. NEAL: I was just 7 mumbling to myself. 8 THE COURT: That's 9 permissible. 10 BY MR. NEAL: 11 Q. On this particular table, 12 this is the Results of Bulk Sampling for 13 PCB 1260, Analysis of Data set SLPCBD. 14 Is that correct? And this is from the 15 State's data. Correct? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. And on it it has the mean, 18 the median and the maximum. What is the 19 mean? 20 A. The average. 21 Q. So that's one of the 22 measures used by scientist or analysts to 23 analyze data, is that correct, getting 24 the average? # ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES * TOWOLDMONOQ60843 ! m 30 1 A. Yes, that's correct. 2 Q. And what is the median? 3 A. The median is essentially 4 the most common central result. It's 5 kind of like the average. 6 Q. Now, if we take a look at 7 the results of the bulk sampling for 8 1260, you find that on the sixth floor, 9 where you would expect you have an 10 average of 69,990 and I think that's in 11 micrograms per kilograms. Correct? 12 A. Yes, that's correct. You 13 divide by a thousand to get parts per 14 million roughly. 15 Q. And on the sixth floor of 16 course you see the very high, the maximum 17 was 3,839,000. Is that correct? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. That does have an effect on 20 the average, does it not? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. So this average, if you 23 eliminated that one particular maximum, 24 that one particular high, this average 32 1 Q. And for the mean, it's 2 pretty uniform, is it not? 3 A. The mean is quite uniform. 4 The range from floor to floor is pretty 5 dramatically different. 6 Q. Well, the range in the mean 7 is not dramatically different, is it? 8 A. No, but as I pointed out, on 9 the first floor if you have 16,000 on one 10 sample and on the thirteenth floor you 11 have 148,000, that's almost ten times 12 different. That's a pretty dramatic 13 different. 14 Q. We're talking about the 15 average in the samples. They take all of 16 the samples with all of the results, they 17 add it up and divide by the number of 18 samples, correct, and they get the 19 average? 20 A. True, but my point is that 21 - going back to your point about chaotic 22 distribution and a lot of variation from 23 floor to floor and from sample to sample, 24 what I'm pointing out here is a pretty 31 33 1 would be significantly lower, would it 1 significant difference from sample to 2 not? 2 sample and floor to floor. 3 A. No, I would have to look at 3 Q. Where is it shown the 4 the data, there might be another one that 4 dramatic difference from sample to 5 is just below that. You can't jump to 5 sample? 6 that conclusion. 6 A. I just pointed out an 7 Q. Did you look at the data? 7 example. The first floor, the median 8 A. Yes. I didn't memorize it 8 result is 16,000 which would of course 9 though, I'm sorry. 9 indicate that there are samples lower 10 Q. Did you notice the anomaly, 10 than that. And on the thirteenth floor 11 that 3,839,000 and see whether there were 11 you have a maximum of 148,000. That's -- * 12 any other areas that had just as high? 12 to me that's very different. That's an 13 A. Yes, I'm sure I did. 13 indication to me that there is this kind 14 Q. But in any event, that is 14 of chaotic distribution that we're 15 69 -- roughly 70,000 micrograms per 15 talking about. ' $ 16 kilogram. And then when you go to the 16 Q. That's the first floor. 17 remaining floors for the average, you 17 Correct? 3 18 have on the first floor roughly 20,556. 18 A. That's correct. 19 You have on the second floor 24,870. 19 Q. That's operated by a 20 Third floor, 26,720. Fourth floor, 20 different HVAC system. Correct? 21 14,637. We jumped up to the seventh, we 21 A. That's correct, but the 22 get 28,000. Eight, 29,000. We're 22 smoke went down to the first floor. It 23 talking pretty consistent, are we not? 23 was ventilated out of the first floor by 24 A. For the mean, that's true. 24 fans as we saw in the videotape. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ60844 34 1 Q. Which videotape are you 2 talking about? We didn't see any smoke 3 vented out of the first floor. We saw 4 videotape 5 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection. 6 That's testimony by counsel. 7 THE COURT: Sustained. 8 BY MR. NEAL: 9 Q. Did you look at the 10 videotapes by the police? 11 A. Yes, I did. 12 Q. Did it show smoke coming out 13 of the first floor? 14 A. The first floor or the 15 ground floor, I don't recall which one it 16 was. I haven't looked at it for a while. 17 Q. You haven't looked at it for 18 a while. Did you see any smoke coming 19 out of the basement area? 20 A. No, not in the videotapes. 21 But there's evidence of smoke in the 22 basement. 23 Q. How is that? 24 A. When I went down there and 36 1 A. But someone had already 2 taken a wipe sample and produced the 3 data. 4 Q. Someone else. You could 5 have done it? 6 A. I had no reason to doubt the 7 results. I don't understand the purpose 8 in taking another sample. 9 Q. So when you were there, you 10 had no reason to doubt the results. You 11 hadn't even reviewed all of the data, you 12 didn't have the data validation packages 13 that you were reviewing at the time. 14 Isn't that correct? 15 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection. 16 Argumentative. 17 THE COURT: Sustained. 18 There was an objection and the 19 court sustained the objection. Of 20 course what may be difficult is 21 the fact that we have a TV between 22 counsel and the court. 23 MR. NEAL: That is true. 24 BY MR. NEAL: J # 35 1 took my tour, you could see visibly where 2 people had taken samples because of the 3 smoke deposits. 4 Q. Who took samples there? 5 A. There were numerous wipe 6 sample locations all over the building 7 from the State to create some of the data 8 that you're talking about. 9 Q. Do you know whether when 10 they wiped it, whether what they were 11 wiping was soot? 12 A It looked like it to me. 13 Q. Could it have been dust? 14 A. Possibly, but it was pretty 15 dark dust. 16 Q. It's a 30-year-old building. 17 Do you know how long the dust was there? 18 A. This wasn't some closest 19 that only gets open once a year. This 20 was the mechanical room in the basement. 21 Q. There's an easy way of 22 determining whether it's soot or dust, 23 you could have taken a wipe sample 24 yourself, couldn't you? 37 1 Q. Do you know from your own 2 personal knowledge and from your own 3 observation whether or not what was down 4 in the basement level was soot? 5 A. Yes, because it was 6 distributed there by the fire. There was 7 evidence of smoke from testimony of 8 several individuals. Sure. 9 Q. Do you remember testimony of 10 Mr. Buhay? Did you read his deposition? 11 A. Parts of it, yes. 12 Q. Did you read where he said 13 there was no smoke damage in the 14 ground -- in the basement? 15 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection, 16 Your Honor. Counsel is 17 testifying. I move to strike it. 18 THE COURT: Sustained. If 19 you have a particular section of 20 the testimony that you would like 21 to ask the witness about, you may 22 do that. But you may not 23 otherwise use your own 24 recollection. * ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 4 TOWOLDMONOQ60845 38 40 I 1 BY MR. NEAL: 1 But as I pointed out, on the thirteenth 2 Q. And you were there three 2 floor you have a maximum of 148,000. 3 years after the fire? 3 That is a high number to have not been 4 A. Yes, that's correct. 4 the result of smoke deposits. 5 Q. Now, you would agree with 5 Q. Well, did you take tests to 6 me, would you not, Mr. Woodyard, that the 6 verify this number to see, gee, 148,000, 7 mean that we see here, other than on the 7 that doesn't make sense, maybe I should 8 fire floor, is pretty uniform, would you 8 take some tests? 9 not? 9 A. No. I didn't feel the need 10 A. Yes. It's fairly uniform. 10 to. 11 Q. And if you looked at the 11 Q. Because you accepted the 12 median, you would see that the median, 12 data. Is that correct? 13 for instance, on the sixth floor, is 13 A. Yes. And Mr. Kominsky's 14 10,900 but on the basement floor, it's 14 data later in his fireproofing samples 15 16,150. Is that correct? 15 confirmed some of what we saw in this 1t 16 A. Yes, it is. 16 data. 17 Q. And that's the fire floor, 17 Q. As a matter of fact, they 18 the sixth floor. Correct? 18 confirmed the fact that on the basement 19 A. Yes. 19 level, there were high levels, higher 20 Q. And we have higher levels of 20 than on the sixth floor? 21 the median on the fifth floor, the fourth 21 A. That, I don't recall. 22 floor, the third floor, the second floor 22 Q. Do you have his report in 23 and the first floor? 23 front of you? 24 A. Yes. But as I was saying, 24 A. No, I don't. But an example 39 41 1 the range of the sample results is what 1 of what struck me, just since we're 2 is important to me in trying to determine 2 picking examples, here one of the sample 3 whether it was soot distribution. 3 results, the maximum, I think it's on the 4 Q. Well, we know the range that 4 eleventh floor, shows a maximum of 102 5 on the sixth floor, the fire floor, was 5 parts per million in the fireproofing 6 10,900, but when you get down to the 6 which is, of course, higher than most of 7 first floor where you wouldn't expect to 7 the maximum found on other floors and 8 have as much, you have 16,150 as the 8 there is nothing special about the 9 median. 9 eleventh floor, going back to your > 10 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection. 10 comments about smoke distribution, except 11 That's a misstatement. The range 11 it's five floors above where the fire 12 was not 10,000. That was the 12 occurred. 13 median. Perhaps counsel misspoke. 13 Q. Which would be unusual? 14 MR. NEAL: I don't know if I 14 A. Absolutely. \ *4 15 misspoke or not, Your Honor. 15 Q. It would be unusual in the 16 BY MR. NEAL: 16 sense that smoke, you would think in the r "1 J 17 Q. Do you understand my 18 question, Mr. Woodyard? 17 normal circumstance, the higher up it 18 gets, the less contamination you would 19 A. In general, yes, I do. 19 have under normal circumstances as a 20 Q. Am I correct that the median 20 scientist? 21 on the fire floor of 10,900 is less than 21 A. True. So when you see a 22 what you find on the first floor, which 22 result like that, that causes you to 23 is 16,150? 23 focus on that result and see if it makes 24 A. Yes, that's in fact correct. 24 sense to your theory. On the eleventh ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ60846 42 1 floor result, since that one is the one 2 that I picked, if you looked at other 3 data, you would have seen several things 4 that are very interesting. One is it's 5 the only location where Mr. Kominsky 6 found PCBs above 50 parts per million. I 7 think his number was 150 parts per 8 million in one of his outer samples, 9 which is again one of those really high 10 numbers. It happens to also be the floor 11 with the highest average wipe 12 concentration from the State's data. 13 It's also the floor with the highest wipe 14 concentration from the building contents 15 during the contents strategy sampling. 16 It's also the only floor where PCBs, the 17 Aroclor 1262 was found in the air above 18 this .5 microgram per cubic meter 19 standard. But what struck me from 20 looking at the videos and looking at that 21 data is that a major portion of the 22 eleventh floor had been remodeled like a 23 year before the fire. Why would the 24 result be so much higher on that floor if 44 1 higher than on the sixth floor, at least 2 as far as the mean is concerned and the 3 median, on floor one, the ground and the 4 basement where they're under a separate 5 HVAC system? 6 A. Because the smoke didn't all 7 follow the HVAC system in distributing 8 itself throughout the building. Elevator 9 shafts, electrical conduits, any number 10 of avenues it could have taken around the 11 building. 12 Q. You're saying, then, that 13 the smoke was as heavy in the basement 14 and the first floor as it was on the fire 15 floor because you have the same kind of 16 levels, if not higher? 17 A. Yes, that's what the data 18 would seem to indicate to you. 19 Q. And the way to verify 20 whether that data can be verified and to 21 answer some of your questions would be to 22 take your own sampling, would it not? 23 A. Well, the samples wouldn't 24 answer the question. The only way to i 1) 1 iJ 1 # # 43 1 the surface that you were sampling were 2 brand new as opposed to 30 years old and 3 the result of all this off-gassing that 4 we keep hearing about. That's the kind 5 of analysis that I did and that's why I 6 concluded, along with other reasons, why 7 the smoke distributed PCBs throughout the 8 building. 9 Q. Well, you have what you call 10 this situation where you said why would 11 that happen, why would that number be the 12 way it is. And rather than speculate, 13 Mr. Woodyard, could you not have said, I 14 am going to go take some sampling on that 15 floor in all the various portions of that 16 floor to see if I could verify that 17 number and then maybe I can draw a 18 conclusion? Did you do that? 19 A. No, again, I didn't see the 20 need to. I trusted the State's thousands 21 of samples as well as Mr. Kominsky's date 22 which that confirmed as I said what I 23 saw. 24 Q. And how were their levels 45 1 verify it in my view would be to recreate 2 the fire and stand in the basement and 3 see what happens. But the testimony and 4 the sampling results would clearly 5 indicate that there was smoke in the 6 ground floor and the basement. 7 Q. Which testimony are you 8 referring to that says there was smoke in 9 the ground and the basement? 10 A. There was testimony from, I 11 believe it's Mr. Mancuso, who said that 12 there was soot on every square inch of 13 the building I think were his words. 14 There's testimony as I recall from Mr. 15 Cocciardi, indicated there was evidence 16 of smoke or odor or something of that 17 nature on those floors as well. 18 Q. Did they indicate in their 19 testimony that the smoke levels down in 20 that ground floor, in that basement 21 floor, were as heavy as it was on the 22 sixth floor? 23 A. No, but that's a subjective 24 judgment. This is actually sampling ; .j 1 ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES I TOWOLDMONOQ60847 46 48 1 results which are quantitative. 1 representative sampling which is what the 2 Q. Now, Mr. Woodyard, it's 2 objective is of sampling, get something 3 important when you do sampling, is it 3 that is representative of the whole. 4 not, that you determine and you have a 4 Correct? I 5 design plan before you go out and do it. 5 A. Yes, sir. In that 6 Is that correct? 6 particular instance, that's true. 7 A. Typically. You at least 7 Q. And another thing that is 8 have an objective. You may not actually 8 important when you do sampling is sample 9 have a real formal design. But 9 size, is it not? 10 particularly when you're doing the 10 THE COURT: Sample what? 11 initial characterization, because you 11 MR. NEAL: Size. 12 don't always know what you're looking for 12 THE WITNESS: Size meaning 13 and you use your observations to decide 13 the number of samples that you 14 where to take samples. 14 take? 15 Q. So that you go out as Mr. 15 BY MR. NEAL: 16 Kominsky did, you go out to look at the 16 O. Well, well get to that. 17 building and then you determine what 17 I'm talking about the amount that you 18 would be the best sampling plan to give 18 take, the size of the sample itself? 19 you representative samples of that 19 THE COURT: Are you talking 20 building. Is that correct? 20 about the size of each sample? 21 A. Well, that's one approach to 21 MR. NEAL: Yes, sir. 22 taking samples. When you take a grid and 22 BY MR. NEAL: 23 you put down on the floor, for example, 23 Q. So the size of the samples 24 and you take samples at each little grid 24 that you take is important also, is it 47 49 1 location, that's one approach. But as 1 not? 2 Mr. Kominsky did, it wasn't so much a 2 A. Yes. The amount of material 3 question of being "representative," as it 3 you collect is important to your 4 is of just looking at things you want to 4 detection limit typically and the number 5 sample and having a reason to take those 5 of samples is important to statistical 6 samples. 6 analysis. 7 Q. You were present when he 7 Q. And the more samples you 8 testified, were you not? 8 have, the better chance that you have 9 A. Part of the time, yes, sir. 9 that it's not by chance what you find, 10 Q. And you read his testimony? 10 but it's more representative of what 11 A. Yes. 11 actually occurred. Is that correct? J 12 Q. And you heard him saying in 12 A. Well, it at least gives you 13 order to get a representative sampling, 13 the tools to do an analysis to determine 4 } 14 that I divided the building into 14 how widely spread these data are and have 15 quadrants. Do you recall that? 15 some idea how they're distributed 16 A. Yes, sir. 16 statistically. :.J 17 Q. And he said I took samples 17 Q. Because you as a scientist 18 from the east side where the fire was and 18 wouldn't just take a sampling, one sample 19 I wanted to make sure it was 19 and say, a-ha, on the basis of that one 20 representative of the whole floor, so I 20 sample, I can draw a conclusion? 21 took samples from the west side. 21 A. In a situation like this, 22 Correct? 22 that's correct. You would want a number 23 A. I recall that testimony. 23 of samples. 24 Q. So he wanted a 24 Q. And where you take the ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ60848 50 1 sampling is important also. Is that 2 correct? 3 A. Important to? What? 4 Q. The integrity of the 5 sampling. Where it's taken, location? 6 A. Yes, going back to say Mr. 7 Kominsky's griding of the building and 8 whether he took what he called a 9 representative sample, that's correct. 10 Q. And I think you just 11 indicated frequency of sampling is also 12 important. Is that correct? 13 A. Number of samples. 14 Q. Number of samples. And then 15 when you get those samples -- 16 incidentally, you have done sampling. Is 17 that correct? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. And when was the last time 20 you did sampling? 21 A. It's been many, many years. 22 Q. When you get the sampling, 23 did you then fill out a chain of custody 24 report? Is that correct? 52 1 there not? 2 A. Yes, there are. 3 Q. And that's from the EPA? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And the EPA also has rules 6 or methods for doing sampling. Correct? 7 A. Yes, for a lot of different 8 types of samples, that's true. 9 Q. And they have methods for 10 when it gets to the laboratory, the 11 extraction from the material of the 12 chemical that you want. Correct? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And then they even have 15 methods for analyzing it. Is that 16 correct? 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. And you received - excuse 19 me for a moment, Your Honor. I hesitate 20 it's going to be in front of you again. 21 THE COURT: That be the 22 case, we will relocate. 23 MR. NEAL: I am now 24 referring to Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1 l i kL Aft 9 a # 51 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. And a chain of custody 3 report includes things such as location 4 of the sample, size of the sample, the 5 instructions as far as what to do. How 6 it's kept. Am I correct? 7 A. The latter ones, yes. Chain 8 of custody forms vary as far as how much 9 detail people put down about the sampling 10 locations and the like because they 11 normally code them and keep their own 12 records of that kind of detail. The 13 laboratory doesn't care where you took 14 the sample. 15 Q. But it's important for the 16 laboratory to know that the sampling was 17 done properly and it was kept properly 18 before it arrived. Is that correct? 19 A. It's important for the 20 lab -- yes, it's important as far as 21 keeping the sample, if there are rules 22 about how to keep samples. That's 23 correct. 24 Q. And there are mles, are 53 1 4007A. 2 BY MR. NEAL: 3 O. Mr. Woodyard, 4007A is a 4 table from your report. Is that correct? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. And that is the table on 7 which you compared the samples that you 8 received designated pre-fire to Mr. 9 Kominsky's samples post-fire. Correct? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And you used Mr. Kominsky's 12 outer samples, because as the jury will 13 recall, am I correct, the samples you 14 took were both an outer sample and inner 15 sample. Correct? 16 A. Yes, the outer being the one 17 exposed to the air plenum and the inner 18 being the one up against the building. 19 Q. So you wanted to compare 20 apples to apples, you wanted to compare 21 the outer with the outer. Is that 22 correct? 23 A. Originally, yes. 24 O. And you found out -- 1 i m : .. i "} .i ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES # TOWOLDMONOQ60849 ! 54 56 1 incidentally, you never received the 1 there was? 2 samples. Am I correct? They went 2 Q. Yes, how much material? 3 directly to your laboratory. Is that 3 A. I looked at it. I don't 4 right? 4 recall what it was. 1 5 A. Yes, that's correct. 5 Q. Where would that be 6 Q. And that was the - 6 indicated? 7 MR. MCCLAIN: Severn. 7 A. It would probably be in one 8 BY MR. NEAL: 8 of the data packages. 9 Q. Severn, yes. And that, 9 Q. Let me just show you Penn 10 again, was the Severn Trent Laboratories 10 4007. Is it included in this? Because 11 in Chicago. Is that correct? 11 that's where I have it. 12 A. Yes, sir. 12 A. No, I don't think so. 13 Q. Now, and then they called 13 Q. So what you received, or 14 you up and said, okay, what do you want 14 what the lab received, were samples in 15 us to do and you told them what to do. 15 which they didn't know - did they know 16 Is that correct? 16 the date they were taken? 17 A. As best as I can recall, 17 A. They knew that the bottom 12 18 that's roughly how it went. 18 I believe were taken in -- was it June of 19 Q. What did you tell them to 19 1992? They didn't have dates for the top 20 do? 20 12 samples. 21 A. I told them to analyze the 21 Q. So they didn't have dates 22 samples for PCB. 22 for the top 12 samples. They didn't have 23 Q. Did you receive from them a 23 how they were kept. Is that correct? 24 data validation package? 24 A. That's correct. 55 1 A. Yes, I did. 2 Q. Do you have that with you, 3 please? 4 A. No, I don't. It's pretty 5 substantial. 6 Q. You don't have that with 7 you, though? 8 A. No, I don't. 9 Q. Well, let me ask you this. 10 When the results were received by the 11 lab, did they receive a chain of custody? 12 A. No, I don't believe so. 13 Q. And so as far as the lab is 14 concerned, they don't know how they were 15 kept. Is that correct? 16 A. That's correct. 17 Q. And they don't know what 18 they were exposed to? 19 A. No. They had no history on 20 how the samples had been handled. 21 Q. They had no history at all. 22 And did you determine what the size of 23 these samples were? 24 A. You mean how much material 57 1 Q. So they really had no 2 information other than the samples that 3 they received. Correct? They had no 4 chain of custody? 5 A. No. That's correct. 6 Q. And would you as a 7 scientist, having received a package like 8 that in which there is no chain of 9 custody, there's no indication how it was 10 kept, what it was exposed to, how long it 11 was, would you be comfortable in your 12 analysis of those samples? 13 A. Certainly. 14 Q. You would? 15 A. Oh, absolutely. I sent 16 them the instruction to analyze for PCB 17 without question. 18 Q. And yet with the Gannett 19 Fleming results, you didn't want to see 20 anything because you said it didn't have 21 anything, it just had a summary of their 22 results. Correct? We're talking about 23 the Gannett Fleming being the bottom 14. 24 A. That's correct.But we're ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMON0060850 58 1 talking about apples and oranges here. 2 In their case you're talking about the 3 lab results. In the earlier case you 4 were talking about where the samples came 5 from and how much there was. 6 Q. Well, the lab results you 7 would have like to have seen how they 8 were kept. Right? You received these 9 samples? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. You would have liked to have 12 seen when they were taken. Correct? 13 A. Perhaps, but that wasn't 14 critical. 15 Q. It wasn't critical to you? 16 A. No. Because they were 17 represented as pre-fire samples. I was 18 not as concerned about the date. 19 Q. And when you found out that 20 for the bottom half, that there were 21 results albeit summary results, did you 22 ask to see those, say I'd like to see the 23 Gannett Fleming results? ' 24 A. No. When I was made aware 60 1 results, did you say to yourself, gee, 2 I'd at least like to have that to see 3 what they did? 4 A. Not really. Because I 5 thought it would confuse the issue. I 6 had my results from my laboratory which I 7 trust and use year after year to do work. 8 Q. Well, the samples that your 9 laboratory received, what information did 10 you have about the size of those samples? 11 A. I was less concerned about 12 the size of the samples. To answer your 13 question, I don't remember exactly what 14 result or what sample weight information 15 I looked at, but as I pointed out 16 earlier, sample weight is what is 17 important to detection limit. If you 18 don't have enough sample, the detection 19 limit that we talked about before goes 20 higher and higher and it may reach a 21 point where it's too high. It's useless 22 to you. But the information that you 23 just showed me had the lab's detection 24 limits listed on it for the samples where ! i i 59 1 of the fact that there were other 2 results, I was also told that there 3 were -- there was no backup information 4 from the laboratory to support it so I 5 could compare it to the backup from my 6 laboratory which had done our results. 7 Q. Did you ask what material 8 they did have? 9 A. I don't think I was 10 specific, but I asked for any data 11 packages associated with those or quality 12 assurance/quality control type backup 13 that I or my staff could use to review 14 it. 15 Q. Were you curious to see, I'd 16 at least like to see what those results 17 are, they may have some importance in 18 verifying my results? 19 THE COURT: Is that a 20 question? 21 MR. NEAL: Yes. 22 BY MR. NEAL: 23 Q. Did you, when you received 24 information that they had Gannett Fleming 61 1 they did and did not find PCB. 2 Q. Were you provided 3 information as to the location that those 4 samples were taken in? 5 A. No. Just inside the 6 Transportation and Safety Building before 7 the fire. 8 Q. So you don't know whether 9 those samples that were taken, whenever 10 they were -- they were taken in '92, 11 where they were in connection with Mr. 12 Kominsky's samples, do you? 13 A. No, I don't. 14 Q. And were you able to 15 determine from the samples whether they 16 were from the outer layer of fireproofing 17 so that you could compare them to the 18 outer layer of Mr. Kominsky's? 19 A. No, I could not. I think as 20 I testified before, I was originally 21 under the impression that they were Mr. 22 Ewing's samples which were in some cases 23 I believe debris and material that had 24 fallen off the fireproofing which would t '.j ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ60851 62 64 1 lead me to believe there was outer, which 1 Is that correct? 1 2 makes a lot of sense, but when I found 2 A. No. Mr. Kominsky took 3 out that that wasn't the case, there was 3 actual fireproofing samples. 4 no way to tell whether it was a whole 4 Q. In the calculations that you 5 inner and outer sample or just an outer 5 did, Mr. Woodyard, with respect to the 6 sample. It could well have been an outer 6 vaporization, you talked about there 7 sample based on the way samples are 7 being 16 miles, is that correct, 16 miles 8 collected. 8 of duct work? 9 Q. It could well have been an 9 A. That's the number I used. I *1 10 inner sample? 10 believe that came from Mr. McClain. I 11 A. I seriously doubt that. 11 didn't actually measure it myself. 12 Q. How do you know that if, A, 12 Q. That actually came from the 13 you don't know where it came from or how 13 testimony, did it not? 14 it was done? 14 A. From whose testimony? 15 A. If you have a couple inches 15 Q. Mr. Kominsky's? 16 of fireproofing, there's no point in 16 A. That could well be. I 17 scraping off the top half-inch to sample 17 didn't recall that. 18 the bottom half-inch if all you're 18 Q. You have no reason to doubt 19 looking for is asbestos which was what 19 that? 20 those samples were originally collected 20 A. No, I'll accept that for the 21 for. It wouldn't make any sense at all. 21 moment. 22 Q. How were they collected? 22 Q. We're talking about is this 23 How were these samples collected? 23 16,000 square miles or miles? Just 24 A. That, I don't know. I don't 24 exactly what are we - how are we 63 1 recall. 2 Q. So what you're saying is an 3 assumption. Correct? It's not personal 4 knowledge? 5 A. No, it makes good common 6 sense. 7 Q. You can't tell whether 8 they're outer and you're comparing them 9 to Mr. Kominsky's outer. Correct? 10 A. That's true. 11 Q. You can't tell whether 12 they're debris and you're comparing them 13 to Mr. Kominsky's samples which were 14 what, four inches by four inches? 15 A. Debris to me means material 16 that fell down onto the ceiling tiles. 17 It was not that type of material. 18 0. Also the size? 19 A. Excuse me? 20 Q. Size. Debris has something 21 to do with size also? 22 A. Yes, as I understand it. 23 Q. Sample four inches by four 24 inches would not be considered debris. 65 1 defining 16 miles? 2 A. As I used it, I was defining 3 it as 16 linear miles of this fire work 4 duct. 5 Q. So on one surface all the 6 way across. Is that correct? When I say 7 the measurement, for instance, like you 8 take one side and you measure it all the 9 way down and it comes out 16 miles. Is 10 that correct? 11 A. Yes. Yes. That's what I 12 did. 13 Q. Now, the one thing that was 14 determined from those samples is that 15 they all were Aroclor 1262. Correct? 16 I'm talking about the pre-fire samples. 17 A. Yes, the pre-fire samples we 18 analyzed were 1262. 19 Q. They're these 28. Correct? 20 A. Yes, I believe that's true. 21 That's definitely true for the ones on 22 the bottom. 23 Q. And these were pre-fire, 24 this is before any fire occurred. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ60852 66 1 Correct? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. And the only PCBs that they 4 found were Aroclor 1262. Is that 5 correct? 6 A. That's correct, yes. 7 Q. Where did the Aroclor 1262 8 come from? 9 A. I don't know. As I 10 testified earlier, I considered it 11 background just like we did in the other 12 buildings where there was no known 13 source. 14 Q. But you have in this 15 instance a known source of Aroclor 1262 16 in the building, do you not? 17 A. Meaning the ductboard? 18 Q. That's right. 19 A. Yes, that's correct. 20 Q. So that the only known 21 source of Aroclor 1262, the defining 22 source in the Transportation and Safety 23 Building is 1262? 24 A. Yes, that's correct. 68 1 material has to find its way out of that 2 solid and the PCBs just aren't going to 3 do that. 4 Q. Is there anything that you 5 can refer us to, either in a textbook, a 6 reference book or literature that says 7 when you have PCBs in a glue matrix, they 8 will not volatilize? 9 A. No. Again, that's basic 10 science and common sense. 11 Q. You keep saying basic 12 science. Is there any chemistry book, 13 any physics book, any book at all that 14 says once you have a glue matrix, your 15 PCBs cannot volatilize? 16 A. No, of course not. There is 17 Mr. Kominsky's testimony, if you recall, 18 he talked about a number of scientific 19 principles. Things like diffusion as 20 affecting this whole process. A 21 diffusion as he described it was smelling 22 somebody across the room by their perfume 23 or because they were smoking a cigarette. 24 And his analogy was an airborne movement \5 ) i 4 i J 11 - 67 1 Q. Then would it be logical, 2 then, to assume that the 1262 came from 3 the only known source in that building 4 which was the adhesive in the ductboard? 5 A. No, not at all. 6 Q. And have you done -- you say 7 no, not at all, why? 8 A. Because for the reasons I 9 mentioned before in talking about 10 vaporization and so forth, there is no 11 evidence that PCBs would have vaporized 12 from the glue at all. It's bound into a 13 solid material. Science is telling me 14 that there is no PCB leaving the 15 ductboard. So from a scientific point of 16 view, to make that connection, it doesn't 17 make any sense. 18 Q. Well, Mr. Woodyard, there is 19 no article that you have found that 20 analyzes whether the PCBs can be bound in 21 a glue matrix and not escape. There's no 22 literature, is there? 23 A. There's good science that 24 tells you the material in a solid 69 1 of these odors or these chemicals. By 2 doing that, by talking about airborne 3 transport, he was grossly oversimplifying 4 the process because in a solid, you've 5 got molecules that are bound to each 6 other. They don't diffuse at the same 7 rate that perfume diffuses across the 8 room. 9 So that science says to you, 10 if it takes this long for PCBs to move 11 from this end of the courtroom to the 12 other one, it's going to take thousands, 13 millions of times as long for that 14 molecule of PCB to work its way out of 15 that solid material. It's a very, very 16 different - same principle, but a very, 17 very different speed and a very, very 18 different process. 19 Q. And there are factors which 20 impact the rate of vaporization. 21 Correct? 22 A. In a pure material, yes, 23 that's true. 24 Q. In a solid. In any # j 'W * - ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ60853 70 72 1 material. There are factors which impact 1 room temperature. 2 the rate of vaporization? 2 MR. GOUTMAN: Mr. Neal, this 3 A. Yes, temperature in 3 isn't the complete - 4 particular. 4 MR. GOUTMAN: Your Honor, I 5 Q. Temperature is one. And we 5 object to the use of an incomplete 6 had a temperature according to Mr. 6 document. This is not the 7 Kominsky of 250 degrees from the heating 7 complete ASTM guideline. 8 iron. Is that correct? 8 THE COURT: As soon as I get 9 A. Yes, as applied for several 9 it, IH rule on the objection. 10 seconds to the tape that we're talking 10 MR. NEAL: If Your Honor, 11 about. 11 please, if we take a short break, 12 O. Well, you never actually did 12 I'm going to attempt to get the I 13 the test so you don't know how many 13 entire document. 14 seconds it was applied, do you? 14 THE COURT: Well take a # 15 A. No, I explained my rationale 15 short recess. 16 before and I think it makes good sense. 16 ... 17 Q. And that is from the 17 (A recess was taken.) 18 experience of ironing on patches on your 18 ... 19 daughter's uniform? 19 THE COURT: I had written-- 20 A. Or extending that experience 20 I had been assigned to argument 21 to a piece of ductboard, to applying a 21 week in Harrisburg the week of 22 piece of tape to a ductboard. 22 April 11. Monday is the 10th. 23 Q. So we do have temperature of 23 And that means that on Tuesday we 24 250 degrees being applied. Is that 24 would have judicial conference. 71 73 1 correct? 1 On Thursday I'm assigned the 12 2 A. Yes, for a very brief time. 2 cases of oral argument and that 3 Q. And another factor that 3 means being there. To make 4 impacts vaporization is air velocity. 4 matters more interesting, I've 5 Correct? 5 been assigned duty week in 6 A. I don't think so. In what 6 Harrisburg the week of April 17th, I 7 context are you talking about? 7 which I think runs from Monday to 8 Q. I'm talking about the 8 Thursday, because Friday if I'm .i 9 context of increasing the rate of 9 not mistaken would be Good Friday. 10 vaporization, whether it be of PCBs or 10 Now, those are two weeks. 11 any other chemical. One of the factors 11 I've written to the 12 that impacts the rate of vaporization is 12 President Judge before I brought 13 air velocity? 13 this to your attention to let 14 A. Could you point me to a 14 him -- advise him that we're 15 reference that would show that? 15 moving along and, if possible, I 16 Q. You're familiar with the -- 16 would like to be detached from s 17 incidentally, there are, are there not, 17 these assignments not so that I 18 methods for performing what we heard 18 could go to Bermuda, but that I 19 called the small chamber test? Is that 19 can continue with DGS. Because of 20 correct? 20 limitations in our court system 21 A. Yes, the American Society 21 and availability of other judges, 22 for Testing Materials has a standard 22 he has declined, so I'm assigned. ) 23 method that is used for testing of 23 And I thought that was essential 24 off-gassing from different products at 24 that you know in scheduling your ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ60854 74 76 1 cases. 1 accommodating in time, but I think 2 MR. GOUTMAN: Why don't we 2 that you have to continue a life. 3 all just rent a Winnebago and we 3 Because they keep asking me at 4 can transfer the trial to 4 court when this thing is going to 5 Harrisburg. 5 be over and they can't understand 6 THE COURT: I would have 6 that I don't know. We have a 7 days in Harrisburg that I could 7 juror that has a paid vacation. 8 use it. 8 MS. MEYERS: May 22, Your 9 MR. EDGE: Mr. Neal had 9 Honor. 10 paid vacation that week. 10 THE COURT: I know it was I11 THE COURT: You wanted off. 11 the Middle East. 12 MR. NEAL: I wasn't going to 12 Okay, I thought I would give 13 ask for it off. 13 you as much advance notice as I 14 MR. GOUTMAN: It's your 15 lucky day. 14 could. 15 ... 16 MR. NEAL: It's St. 16 MR. EDGE: Court is in 17 Patrick's Day. 17 session, you may be seated. 18 MR. GOUTMAN: He had a 18 MR. NEAL: May I proceed, 19 prepaid vacation for that week. 19 Your Honor? 20 Things might work out, Mr. Neal. 20 THE COURT: Yes. 21 MR. NEAL: Might save my 21 MR. NEAL: Your Honor, I do 22 35-year-old marriage. 22 not have the complete copy of the 23 THE COURT: It's worth 23 exhibit. So in fairness, I am not 24 preserving. 24 going to use it. 75 77 1 MR. NEAL: She?s put up with 1 BY MR. NEAL: 2 me 35 years. 2 Q. Mr. Woodyard, just following 3 THE COURT: Pretty hard to 3 up, and I'm going to be through in a 4 find somebody this stage of the 4 minute, we find 1262 in all 28 samples 5 ballgame. 5 pre-fire in accordance with the results 6 MR. HENDERSON: When would 6 that you got from your lab. Is that 7 we have court, if at all, that 7 correct? 8 week? 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 THE COURT: On the week of 9 Q. We don't find in there any 10 the 10th, 111 be out there 10 other PCBs other than Aroclor 1262. 11 Tuesday through Thursday. I would 11 Correct? ! 12 have to check to see whether that 12 A. No, that's correct. In the 13 is a morning session or an 13 samples we analyzed we just found 1262. 14 afternoon session. If it's an 15 afternoon session, it might be too 14 Q. And in the Transportation 15 and Safety Building we have the ductboard j 16 late to warrant driving back. 16 as the known source and the only known 17 MR. NEAL: I agree, Your 17 source of 1262 in that building. Is that 18 Honor. 18 correct? 19 THE COURT: It would only be 19 A. Yes, that's correct. 20 one day, the 14th. 20 Q. And I asked you before, is 21 MS. MEYERS: I move we give 21 it not logical then to assume when you 22 that day to Mr. Neal. 22 have a defined source of 1262 and you 23 THE COURT: We weren't 23 have 1262 found in there pre-fire, that 24 wasting time, we were 24 isn't it logical to assume that it came ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ60855 78 80 I' i 1 from the adhesive in the ductboard? 1 Q. Referring you to DCT11, 2 A. No. As I said before, 2 which you should have, do you have the 3 that's not logical if you look at the 3 Gustin-Bacon-- i 4 science associated with that assumption 5 and dismiss it. 4 A. Yes, I think I have a copy 5 of my report on that. 6 Q. Which you did and you can't 6 Q. DCT-11, the one that has 7 refer me to anything in the science, can 7 this. 8 you, as far as glue matrix, adhesive, 8 A. Okay. 9 ever being tested other than Mr. Ewing, 9 Q. Would you look at the last 10 there is nothing that you can find in the 10 page on that, would be marked in the 11 literature that tells you that it doesn't 11 right-hand side CT 00083? 12 offgas? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 A. Well, Mr. Ewing's test isn't 13 Q. You see under design 14 a particularly good test. 14 considerations? 15 Q. You didn't do one, did you? 15 A. Yes. 16 A. No. But as I pointed out 16 Q. This is the Gustin-Bacon 17 before, I didn't feel the need to do that 17 duct. Correct? The duct we're talking 18 based on what I knew about the physical 18 about here in the Transportation and 19 property of PCBs and the fact that it was 19 Safety Building. Correct? 20 mixed up and solidified into this glue. 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. So Mr. Ewing is the only one 21 Q. Standard design 22 that did a small chamber test. Correct? 22 considerations it says number five. Air 23 A. Yes. Albeit flawed, he did. 23 temperature within G-B duct should not be 24 He tried. 24 in excess of 250 degrees. Do you see 79 81 1 Q. Well, you sat back there and 1 that? 2 you said it's flawed, but you didn't do 2 A. Yes. That's correct. 3 it yourself. Am I correct in that? 3 Q. Do you know why they put 4 A. No, that's correct. I 4 that in there? 5 didn't see the need to. 5 A. No. I assumed when I saw 6 Q. And the 1262s, where did 6 that, that was what they felt was a safe 7 they come from? If they didn't come from 7 operating temperature to keep the duct 8 the adhesive which is the only known 8 from deteriorating. 9 source of Aroclor 1262 in the building, 9 Q. Did you ever find out 10 where did they come from? 10 whether they put that in there to prevent 11 A. I don't know. That's why we 11 the volatilization of PCBs? 12 refer to them as background just as we 12 A. No, I have no reason to 13 did in other buildings where there were 13 believe that that is the case. 14 no known source either. 14 Q. But you didn't ask? 15 Q. And how did they get there? 15 A. Well, this document - r"^ 16 A. I don't know. 16 Q. You didn't ask, though, did 17 Q. Incidentally, we talked 17 you, sir? 18 about Mr. Kominsky testified about the 18 A. No, I didn't feel the need 19 use of the heat sealing iron and he said 19 to ask that question. 20 it got up to 250 degrees. Is that 20 MR. NEAL: I have no further 21 correct? 21 questions, Your Honor. 22 A. Yes. I think his testimony 22 ------ 23 was that it would get the adhesive up to 23 RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION 24 250 degrees. 24 ------- ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ60856 82 1 MR. GOUTMAN: Good morning. 2 THE JURORS: Good morning. 3 MR. GOUTMAN: Happy St. 4 Patrick's Day. I forgot to wear 5 my green tie. 6 BY MR. GOUTMAN: 7 Q. Good morning, Mr. Woodyard. 8 A. Good morning. 9 Q. My first question is how far 10 do you have Temple going in the office 11 pool? 12 A. To the finals. However, 13 today Illinois, my alma mater, will beat 14 Penn. 15 0. You're not supposed to say 16 that. 17 A. Hence I was tom what colors 18 to wear today, green or orange or blue, 19 and I chose none of the above. 20 Q. Mr. Neal was asking you 21 about volatilization or evaporation from 22 solids. Is that correct? Do you recall 23 that? 24 A. Yes, sir. 84 1 approximately between ten and a hundred 2 million to one. PCBs evaporate almost a 3 hundred million times slower than water 4 does. 5 Q. You have a cup of water, say 6 it takes a day, two days to evaporate. 7 How long will a cup of Aroclor 1262 take? 8 A. A hundred million times 9 that. A hundred million days. 10 Q. A hundred million days. In 11 the T&S Building, were there any cups of 12 PCBs to your knowledge? 13 A. No. Not to my knowledge. 14 Q. Where were the PCBs in the 15 ductboard? 16 A. The PCBs were in the glue. 17 They were locked in the glue. 18 Q. Would that hasten or make 19 more slow any evaporation of PCBs? 20 A. It would slow it down 21 dramatically. 22 Q. Why is that? 23 A. Because the PCBs that are 24 validated as glue would have to make i tJ s 83 1 Q. And as a simple example, 2 let's take this jury rail. Is this a 3 solid? 4 A. Yes, it is. 5 Q. Do you expect this jury rail 6 to evaporate any time soon? 7 A. No, of course not. 8 Q. Where were the PCBs in the 9 glue? What was the glue, is that a solid 10 or a liquid? What was it? 11 A. The glue was a solid. 12 Q. How long would you have to 13 stand here looking at this jury rail 14 before you would see it evaporate? 15 A. Who knows. Thousands, 16 perhaps millions of years. 17 Q. You mentioned in response to 18 one of Mr. Neal's question comparison 19 between the evaporation rates of PCBs 20 versus water. Do you recall that? 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. And what is the difference, 23 sir? 24 A. The difference is 85 1 their way out of that solid material to 2 get to the surface in order to evaporate. 3 That's an incredibly slow process. 4 Q. I'm going back to some 5 questions that Mr. McClain was asking you 6 some time ago on cross-examination. He 7 started his cross-examination, I believe, 8 by asking you about the cost of cleaning 9 up the PCBs from the T&S Building. Do 10 you recall that? 11 A Yes, sir. 12 Q. How much did the complete 13 abatement of the Transportation and 14 Safety Building cost? 15 A You're talking about 16 abatement for PCBs and asbestos? 17 Q. Soup to nuts. 18 A. A little over $12 million. 19 Q. How do you know that? 20 A From the bid information 21 from the contractor they selected to do 22 the work. 23 Q. Were there any documents 24 that you reviewed? ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES I TOWOLDMONOQ60857 . 86 88 { 1 A. Yes, there were. 1 A. PDG. ) 2 Q. And where were those 2 Q. How much was related to 3 documents from? 3 asbestos? 4 A. They were the bid that the 4 A. About $10 million. 5 contractor submitted to the State along 5 Q. How much was related to 6 with the bills that the contractor 6 removal of the exterior caulk from the 7 submitted to the State as they did the 7 building? 8 work. 8 A. Almost a million. 9 Q. And who were those bills 9 Q. In your opinion, sir, was 10 submitted to? 10 the removal of that caulk necessary or 11 A. To the State. They may have 11 required? 12 gone through the contractor who did the 12 A. No, it wasn't. 13 demolition work, CRSS. 13 Q. How much, then, sir, how 14 Q. It cost a total of how much 14 much did it actually cost to clean up the 15 to clean up the building? 15 building of PCBs? \ 16 A. For PCBs and asbestos? 16 A. $868,000. 17 Q. Yes. 17 Q. You were asked some 18 A. About 12.1,1 believe. 18 questions about PCBs and asbestos. Do 19 $12.1 million is the number. 19 you recall those? 20 Q. In reviewing the actual 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 documents submitted by PDG, the cleanup 21 Q. Did you have asbestos taken 22 contractor, were you able to determine or 22 from the building before the fire? 23 did those documents set forth how much 23 A. Yes. I received or my lab 24 was related to PCBs? 24 received samples of asbestos taken before 87 89 1 A. Yes, they did. The bid 1 the fire. 2 information that was provided by the 2 Q. Those were samples provided 3 contractor included a long list of 3 by Mr. McClain's office to me that I sent 4 specific -- what I would call patent 4 to your laboratory? 5 items, a term commonly used in 5 MR. MCCLAIN: Your Honor, 6 contracting, and it sets forth how much 6 he's testifying now. 7 they're going to get paid for each thing 7 MR. GOUTMAN: It's not a 8 they do. And as they go through the 8 fact in dispute. 9 work, they can bill all of that or part 9 MR. MCCLAIN: I don't know 10 of that depending on whether the manager 10 what the witness knows compared to 11 says they're done. So that basic 11 what Mr. Goutman is now talking 12 document was a starting point for all 12 about. 13 their invoices. 13 THE COURT: Overruled. 14 Q. Total was 12 million? 14 There's been testimony to that 15 A. About 12 million. That's 15 effect. The credibility is for 16 correct. 16 the jury to determine and the f'l 17 Q. How much for PCBs? 17 court is not advising the jury as 18 A. According to those 18 to how to determine -- who is 19 documents, about $868,000. 19 credible or who is not. That is 20 Q. Those are documents 20 their responsibility and they11 21 submitted by whom? 21 get to it when they begin to 22 A. Documents submitted by the 22 deliberate. 23 contractor. 23 MR. MCCLAIN: That's fine, 24 Q. PDG? 24 Your Honor. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ60858 90 1 BY MR. GOUTMAN: 2 Q. These were samples provided 3 by Mr. McClain's office to me that I sent 4 to the laboratory. Is that correct? 5 A. Yes, that's my 6 understanding. 7 Q. And you also had some test 8 data of asbestos taken from the building 9 after the fire? 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. Now, with respect to the 12 tests of the asbestos taken before the 13 fire but tested after the fire, did those 14 levels of PCBs in that asbestos require 15 that the asbestos be removed? 16 A. No, not at all. 17 Q. Is there one law or 18 regulation in America that would have 19 required the removal of that asbestos 20 because of the pre-fire PCB levels in 21 that building and the asbestos? 22 A. No, there is no law like 23 that. 24 Q. What were those levels 92 1 had reference to soil. 2 BY MR. GOUTMAN: 3 Q. You were saying? 4 A. I was saying that there is 5 no law that would require the 6 fireproofing to come out because of the 7 asbestos. The closest similar standard 8 is for soil in high contact locations, 9 and that's ten parts per million. And so 10 clearly the fireproofing results, if he 11 can draw that analogy to soil, it's a 12 little loose, is the fireproofing was 13 much lower. 14 Q. Is there a 50 part per 15 billion bulk regulation? 16 A. Well, there is a standard 17 often cited of 50 parts per million. 18 Q. Excuse me, million. I 19 misspoke. 20 A. That's okay. I caught you. 21 The 50 parts per million standard doesn't 22 really apply to cleanup as much as it 23 applies to disposal. It's the kind of 24 number that a disposal company would want 1 91 1 versus the EPA low contact standard, were 2 they higher or lower? 3 A. Kind of hard to say. We're 4 talking about the fireproofing results? 5 Q. Yes. 6 A. Well, the pre-fire average 7 was about three parts per million based 8 on that table that was up there a little 9 while ago. And for a cleanup, probably 10 the closest analogy is for soil, the PCBs 11 standards is -- 12 MR. MCCLAIN: I object. 13 This is not about soil. We're not 14 talking about a cleanup standard 15 for soil. Unless there is such a 16 cleanup standard for 17 concentrations in bulk material, I 18 object. I don't know what 19 relevance soil has. 20 MR. GOUTMAN: It's a 21 speaking objection, Your Honor. 22 In fact, he was asked about soil 23 before and this is a -- I'm sorry. 24 THE COURT: Overruled. We 93 1 to know if you were taking material to 2 their landfill, for example, or their 3 incinerator. 4 Q. Did the presence of PCBs, 5 either before or after the fire, require 6 the removal of the asbestos? 7 A. In a sense because it was 8 the result of a release or a spill, if 9 you want to call it that, it would have 10 required some removal because some of the 11 levels were above at least this 50 parts 12 per million standard that we just talked 13 about. So there might have been limited 14 fireproofing removal required. 15 Q. What did Mr. Kominsky find 16 with respect to the levels found after 17 the fire? 18 A. He found that the - well, 19 based on my comparison, he found that 20 they were significantly higher than the 21 pre-fire samples and pre-fire analysis 22 that I did. 23 Q. What did he find with 24 respect to whether there were any samples j 1 ! ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ60859 94 96 1 above 50 parts per million? 1 with its 10 milligram and 100 microgram 2 A. He only found one in that 2 safe standard, does it apply to the T&S 3 eleventh floor sample that I was talking 3 Building? ; 4 about before. 5 Q. Only one? 4 A. Yes, absolutely. 5 Q. How do you know that? 6 A. I believe so. 6 A. Well, the 20 plus years of 7 Q. Sir, you were asked some 7 experience in cleaning up. 13 years of 8 questions by Mr. McClain about whether 8 experience in dealing with the policy. 9 the EPA safe standard applies to the T&S 9 You may recall from my earlier testimony 10 Building. Do you recall that? 10 that the spill policy was set up as 11 A. Yes, sir. 11 essentially a do-it-yourself cookbook by 12 Q. Sir, how many years have you 12 EPA for people who owned PCB transformers 13 been doing PCB cleanup work? 13 and capacitors so that for every little 14 A. A little more than twenty. 14 spill they had, they wouldn't have to 15 Q. In how many states have you 15 call EPA and get their permission and 16 done PCB cleanup work? 16 advice. 17 A. I suspect most of them. I 17 So there are a lot of spills 18 don't know exactly how many. 18 that have been cleaned up using that 19 Q. Have you done PCB cleanup 19 policy. As a consultant and an expert in 20 work in foreign countries? 20 this area, I don't typically get called 21 A. Yes, sir. We discussed that 21 to help people with those little spills. 22 before. 22 They don't need my help. They get me 23 Q. Have you lectured on the 23 involved in the more complicated 24 subject of PCBs and the EPA spill policy? 24 cleanups, the ones that require more 95 97 1 A. Yes, quite frequently as a 1 planning and thought and more knowledge 2 matter of fact. 2 of the regulations and the technology. 3 Q. You had mentioned that you 3 So almost all the -- I think 4 were invited by the City of Philadelphia 4 I mentioned I probably worked on a 5 recently to address them? 5 hundred or more PCB cleanups. I can't 6 A Yes. They wanted to put on 6 remember one that actually was subject to 7 a PCB class and asked the EPA who they 7 the spill policy. They're all bigger, 8 should bring in, and they recommended me. 8 they're all different than what EPA had 9 Q. The EPA recommended you? 9 in mind in that little do-it-yourself 10 A. Yes, that's correct. 10 cookbook. 11 Q. For how many years have you 11 Q. In those hundred plus 12 been dealing with the Environmental 12 projects that you worked on, what 13 Protection Agency in relation to the 13 standard is applied? What cleanup i 14 spill policy and PCBs? 14 standard is applied? 15 A. On the issue of PCBs, pretty 15 A. The same standard is applied 16 much my whole career. 20 plus years on 16 regardless of how big the cleanup is. It r'l 17 the spill policy. At least 13. It's 17 doesn't matter. Those are the EPA safe iJ 18 been in place since about 1987. 18 standards we've been talking about for 19 Q. And how frequently do you 19 the T&S Building. 20 have occasion to interact with the EPA on 20 Q. Does the EPA have a 21 issues concerning PCBs? 21 different standard depending upon how big 22 A. All the time. Probably 22 the building is? Is there one standard 23 weekly. 23 for a 100,000 square foot building and 24 Q. Sir, does the spill policy 24 another standard for a 300,000 square ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOO6O86O 98 1 foot building and another standard for a 2 500,000 square foot building? 3 A. No, absolutely not. The 4 standards are the same. They have 5 nothing to do with the size of the 6 cleanup. 7 Q. Does it have anything to do 8 with the size of the spill or release? 9 In other words, if you have an itty-bitty 10 spill, there's one standard. If you have 11 a whole big spill and release, there's 12 another standard? 13 A. No, it doesn't make any 14 difference. 15 Q. How did the EPA come up with 16 their 10 microgram standard for high 17 contact areas and 100 microgram standard 18 for low contact areas, did they just come 19 up with those numbers? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Pull them out of the air? 22 A. No. They performed risk 23 assessments. 24 Q. You had, in 100 1 cleanup? 2 A. That's correct. 3 Q. 95 percent? 4 A. Yes, that's based on my 5 calculations from the data. 6 Q. Now, you had mentioned in 7 cross-examination and the jury heard this 8 phrase before, Mega Rule. Could you 9 remind the Court, the jury and me what 10 the Mega Rule is? 11 A. As I think I said during 12 that discussion, the PCB regulations have 13 been in place since beginning around 14 1978. So it's been a long time. In 15 1991, after a number of years of trying 16 to apply regulations, EPA proposed a wide 17 variety of changes to the regulations 18 based on all that experience that they 19 had for years in regulating PCBs. That 20 was essentially the birth of the Mega 21 Rule in '91 when it was proposed. It was 22 finalized in around I guess mid 1998. 23 Q. Does the Mega Rule have a 24 cleanup standard? 4 1 4i j ai 15 i \ 99 1 cross-examination, referred to the EPA 2 standard as stringent. What did you mean 3 by that? 4 A Oh, it's stringent in the 5 sense that to develop the risk 6 assessment, since there is no evidence of 7 PCBs being a cancer agent in humans, they 8 had to use animal studies. So they 9 basically built the risk assessment on 10 animal data as opposed to human data for 11 which there is none. If they simply used 12 human data, there would be no risk and 13 there would be no standard. 14 Q. Did the Transportation and 15 Safety Building, even before they paid 16 $12 million to clean it up, did the T&S 17 Building comply or not comply with the 18 EPA safe standard? 19 A. It was pretty much in 20 compliance I believe. 95 percent of the 21 samples, surface wipe samples in the 22 building were in compliance with that 23 standard. 24 Q. Even before they did any 101 1 A. Yes, it does. 2 Q. And what is that standard? 3 A. The standards in the Mega 4 Rule are the same as in the spill policy. 5 Q. And how did they come up 6 with those standards in the Mega Rule? 7 A. Through risk assessment 8 again. 9 Q. And, sir, in the Mega Rule, 10 does it set forth what kinds of 11 facilities the EPA safe standard applies 12 to? 13 A. It sets forth some examples. 14 It's very specific in identifying certain 15 types of facilities to which each of the 16 standards applies. 17 Q. And what examples are given? 18 A Well, examples for this what 19 they call a high occupancy standard which 20 is their way of saying full time. 21 Q. 24 hours a day? 22 A. Yes, 24 hours a day, seven 23 days a week. They include by name things 24 like residences, day care centers, 1 J } i ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES f J) TOWOLDMONOO6O86I I 102 104 1 hospitals, cafeterias, work stations like 1 question, Your Honor. 2 at your office or place of business. 2 THE COURT: You may rephrase 3 Those are considered high occupancy 3 the question. ) 4 locations. 4 MR. GOUTMAN: Thank you, 5 Q. The EPA safe standard 5 Your Honor. 6 according to the EPA applies to what, 6 BY MR. GOUTMAN: ) : j 7 day care centers? 7 Q. With respect to the spill 8 A. Right. It applies to just 8 policy, you were asked by Mr. McClain 9 about any facility that you can imagine 9 whether the word "safe" ever appears in 10 where there's full-time occupancy. 10 that regulation. Do you recall that? 11 Q. And they mention 11 A. Yes, I recall the question. i 12 specifically what facilities? 12 Q. Mr. Woodyard, could you see 1 13 MR. MCCLAIN: Your Honor, 13 that? I 14 this is repetitive. He's already 14 A. Yes, I can. 15 said it. 15 Q. Can you read that for the 16 MR. GOUTMAN: I don't know 16 jury? 17 if it was clear, Your Honor. 17 THE COURT: What is that 18 MR. MCCLAIN: I thought it 18 document? 19 was very clear. We've heard it 19 BY MR. GOUTMAN: 20 three times. 20 Q. What is this document that 21 THE COURT: Overruled. 21 we're looking at? 22 THE WITNESS: Again, we're 22 MR. MCCLAIN: 111 23 talking about homes, residences. 23 stipulate, it's the spill policy. 24 We're talking about day care 24 THE WITNESS: It's the final 103 1 centers, hospitals as well as 2 office type facilities. 3 BY MR. GOUTMAN: 4 Q. You say we're talking about. 5 Whose talking about that? 6 A. EPA. EPA is listing those 7 as types of facilities that are subject 8 to that standard. 9 Q. And where are they listing 10 those? 11 A. In the regulation. 12 Q. Now, you were asked some 13 questions about whether the word "safe" 14 appears in the Mega Rule. Do you recall 15 that? 16 A. Yes, I believe so. 17 MR. MCCLAIN: No, Your 18 Honor, that was never asked. I'd 19 like a reference to the transcript 20 where that was said. I referred 21 to the spill policy when I asked 22 that question, not the Mega Rule. 23 MR. GOUTMAN: I misstated 24 it. I'm sorry. Ill rephrase the 105 1 PCB spill policy rule from 1987. 2 BY MR. GOUTMAN: 3 Q. Now, what does the EPA say 4 about their spill policy? 5 A. The sentence says, PCB 6 spills will be cleaned to levels that do 7 not pose an unreasonable risk of injury 8 to human health or the environment. 9 Q. How did the EPA determine 10 that the levels they put forth in 1987 11 and again in 1998 did not pose an 12 unreasonable risk of injury to human 13 health or the environment? 14 A. They determined that through 15 risk assessment. 16 MR. MCCLAIN: I object. 17 This is repetitive. We've had 18 that four times this morning on 19 risk assessment. It's cumulative. 20 THE COURT: That may be, but 21 -1 assume it's an objection, 22 it's overruled. 23 BY MR. GOUTMAN: 24 Q. To your knowledge, has the ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ60862 106 1 EPA, the Environmental Protection Agency 2 of the United States of America, ever put 3 forth a cleanup level that they had 4 concluded was unsafe? 5 A. No. Of course not. 6 Q. Now, with respect to whether 7 this EPA safe standard applies to the T&S 8 Building, do you recall the 1995 letter 9 from Mr. Echt of NIOSH to DGS? Do you 10 recall seeing that? 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. Sir, how many references -- 13 excuse me. Does the letter discuss the 14 EPA spill policy? 15 A. Yes, it referred the State 16 to the EPA spill policy standards. 17 Q. And how many times does it 18 reference the EPA safe levels and the 19 spill policy? 20 A. I don't know the number of 21 times. A number of times. In the 22 tables, in the text. . 23 Q. What conclusion did you draw 24 from that as to the applicability of the 108 1 collect data, they continued to show 2 levels that were higher than the NIOSH 3 level, lower than the EPA level and 4 continued to assure the employees that 5 the building was safe. 6 Q. In fact, when they did, two 7 and a half years after the fire, three 8 years after the fire, actually four years 9 after the fire, when they did actually 10 get around to cleaning up the building, 11 what cleanup level did they use, the 12 NIOSH level or the EPA level? 13 A. No, again, they used the EPA 14 level to finally clean up the building 15 before they demolished it. 16 Q. So what then did the State 17 actually do with the NIOSH level? 18 A. As a practical matter, they 19 didn't use it. They simply accepted it 20 as the recommendation. 21 Q. Did they ever actually apply 22 it? 23 A. No, not to my knowledge. 24 Q. Now, the NIOSH level that i i iJ a 1 ) 10 7 1 PCB safe levels to the Transportation and 2 Safety Building? 3 A. Well, clearly NIOSH was 4 recommending that the State consider the 5 spill policy levels. They did it in 6 almost exactly those words throughout the 7 document. 8 Q. Now, you had been asked 9 about the Pennsylvania Department of 10 Health's recommendation. Do you recall 11 that? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. What did they recommend? 14 A. They ultimately recommended 15 the use of the NIOSH guideline. 16 Q. To your knowledge, was the 17 NIOSH guideline ever actually followed? 18 A. No, it wasn't. Not to my 19 knowledge based on my reading. 20 Q. How did you conclude that? 21 A. We talked earlier about how 22 the building was essentially already 23 clean at the point at which it was 24 reoccupied. The State continued to 109 1 we've been talking about, that's the one 2 microgram per 100 centimeters square on 3 surfaces. Is that correct? 4 A. Yes, that's correct. 5 Q. Is that an actual policy 6 officially adopted by NIOSH? 7 A. No. No, not to my 8 knowledge. 9 Q. What PCB guideline has NIOSH 10 actually formally adopted? 11 A. PCB guideline? 12 Q. Yes. 13 A. Certainly not for surfaces. 14 Q. How about the air guideline? 15 A. I think they've adopted the 16 air guideline, but it's never been 17 accepted by OSHA or anybody else as a 18 standard. 19 Q. How about the EPA guideline 20 for surface, has that ever been accepted 21 by OSHA? 22 A. For surfaces, I don't think 23 OSHA has formally adopted it, per se. 24 Q. Has NIOSH's air guideline J ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ60863 110 1X2 1 ever been adopted by OSHA? 1 Q. How so? 2 A. No. 2 A. They, as I described before, 3 Q. How many years has it been 3 they've never used risk based standards 1 4 since NIOSH recommended it? 4 for cleanups or recommended them. But I 5 A. I don't know. Probably 10 5 think it was in 1995, they actually 6 or 15 years. 6 changed their policy to begin to allow J 7 Q. The NIOSH guideline is based 8 on what? Is it based on a risk 7 risk based standards to be used or 8 recommended for their own particular use, 9 assessment? 9 NIOSH's use. 10 A. No. The NIOSH guidelines 10 Q. Mr. Neal asked you about 11 both for air and surface is based on what 11 your not doing any further tests in the 12 they call lowest feasible level 12 building. Do you recall that? 13 considering background. So in other 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 words, it's a standard that says clean it 14 Q. How many tests had been done 15 all up until you reasonably can't clean 15 at that building by the time you arrived 16 it up any more. 16 at the scene? 17 Q. Has NIOSH changed its policy 17 A. PCB samples? Thousands. 18 at all since they originally proposed 18 Perhaps as many as 10,000. 19 that standard or guideline that has never 19 Q. Did you see any need to add 20 been adopted by OSHA? 20 to that pile of tests? 21 A. I understand that - 21 A. No. As I said before, I 22 MR. MCCLAIN: I'd like some 22 didn't see the need to take more samples. 23 more foundation on this subject. 23 MR. GOUTMAN: With the 24 He says he understands, that 24 Court's permission, I want to get in 1 raises a question in my mind. 2 From whom? 3 THE COURT: The question, I 4 believe the question relates to 5 whether or not your belief 6 represents a scientific evaluation 7 or whether it is a supposition on 8 your part. 9 MR. GOUTMAN: Let me 10 rephrase it. 11 THE COURT: So to that 12 extent, the objection is 13 sustained, you may rephrase the 14 question. 15 MR. GOUTMAN: Thank you, 16 Your Honor. 17 BY MR. GOUTMAN: 18 Q. You had dealings with NIOSH 19 over the years? 20 A. Yes, I have. 21 Q. Sir, has NIOSH policy 22 changed with respect to the lowest 23 feasible level? 24 A. Yes, it has. 113 1 some exhibits from the back of the 2 courtroom. 3 THE COURT: Yes. 4 MR. GOUTMAN: I apologize to 5 the jury, I should have done this 6 during the break. 7 BY MR. GOUTMAN: 8 Q. Mr. Neal asked you about 9 smoke being distributed throughout the 10 building and you mentioned Mr. Mancuso's 11 testimony. Is that correct? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 MR. GOUTMAN: Your Honor, 14 this has already been read to the 15 jury. 16 BY MR. GOUTMAN: 17 Q. Is this the testimony you 18 were referring to? 19 A. Yes, it is. 20 Q. Deposition of Joseph 21 Mancuso, division chief, engineering 22 design DGS. Question: Can you describe 23 for me your background in management and 24 asbestos removals in buildings? ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ60864 114 1 Answer: I'm the division 2 chief for the engineering design division 3 for DGS. Under me, I have mechanical 4 engineering, civil, structural and 5 electrical. And on projects that we are 6 assigned to complete for various 7 agencies, asbestos removal does come up 8 as part of the scope of those projects 9 and my engineers under me do those 10 projects and I'm the supervising 11 engineer. Question: Did you go into the 12 building on Tuesday after the fire? 13 Answer: The Tuesday after 14 the fire? I couldn't say for certain. I 15 know probably I'm pretty sure I was in 16 Monday. I don't remember about Tuesday. 17 Question: Do you remember 18 going into the building with Mr. Intieri 19 and one or two of the other people to 20 tour the nonfire damaged portions of the 21 building? 22 Answer: Yes. Yes. 23 Question: Was that sometime 24 about within a week after the fire? 116 1 questions, sir? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Sir, I want to turn to an 4 exhibit that we used in your direct. It 5 is DM 3151. Perhaps it would be easier 6 for you to come down with the Court's 7 permission? 8 THE COURT: You may step 9 down. 10 MR. GOUTMAN: Can you see 11 it, Your Honor? 12 THE COURT: I can see it. 13 BY MR. GOUTMAN: 14 Q. Now, is this an exhibit that 15 you helped prepare? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. What does it explain? 18 A. It explains the logic that I 19 used to conclude that PCBs in the T&S 20 Building came from the fire. 21 Q. Keep your voice up, please. 22 And what was that logic, sir? 23 A. IH walk through it 24 step-wise. 4 \ IJJ } 115 1 Answer: I would say it was 2 within a week, yes. 3 Question: What was the 4 purpose of the inspection? 5 Answer: Just a general walk 6 through to just assess advisable damage 7 on those floors other than 4 through 7. 8 Question: What did you see 9 with respect to damage to the building on 10 that tour? 11 Answer: Just a lot of soot 12 and smoke damage. Every square inch that 13 you could see or touch was covered with 14 soot and of course the odor was terrible. 15 Question: Was that pretty 16 much throughout the building? 17 Answer: Absolutely. 18 Was that the testimony 19 you're referring to? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. Now, sir, you were asked 22 questions about your conclusion that the 23 PCBs that were found on building surfaces 24 came from the fire. Do you recall those 117 1 Q. You're the witness. 2 A. Fine. Point number one, 3 building products containing PCBs were 4 burned in the fire. 5 Q. Time out now. What burned 6 in the fire? 7 A. The ductboard containing the 8 Aroclor 1262 we've been talking about and 9 some light fixtures contained Aroclor 10 1242. 11 Q. How do you know that? 12 A. Because I saw it. I've seen 13 pictures of it. I've heard testimony 14 about it. 15 Q. Was it depicted at all on 16 any videotape? 17 A. Yes. 18 MR. MCCLAIN: Your Honor, 19 it's leading. 20 MR. GOUTMAN: I'm asking 21 whether -- 22 THE COURT: Sustained. 23 BY MR. GOUTMAN: 24 Q. What else did you review, 4 J ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ60865 118 120 1 sir? 1 Q. What are all these numbers? 2 A. As I said, photographs, 2 A. The chart shows, you know, 3 deposition testimony, the video that's 3 going from bottom to top shows how high 4 referred to that the jury saw. 4 the concentrations were. The two bars 5 Q. What did all of those things 5 here represent the average concentration 6 show? 6 before the fire and after the fire. And 7 A. That ductboard and light 7 it shows that the average concentration 8 fixtures were burned up in the fire. 8 in the pre-fire asbestos samples, the 28 9 Q. Go ahead. 9 samples that you've seen that we 10 A. The second point, the same 10 analyzed, was three parts per million and 11 photographs, videos and testimony shows 11 that the same result from Mr. Kominsky's 12 that the fire spread smoke throughout the 12 outer sample results was 17.7 parts per 13 building. That's clear. Onto every 13 million. In other words, five times 14 floor. 14 higher than pre-fire samples. % 15 Q. And what, in your opinion, 15 Q. What does that tell you? 16 did the smoke contain as a result of the 16 A. It tells me that almost all 17 burning of those products that you just 17 of that PCB was deposited by the fire. 18 mentioned? 18 Q. And where did this come 19 A. The smoke contained PCBs 19 from, 3.0? 20 that were incinerated along with the 20 A. 3.0 is the average of the -- 21 building products. 21 I believe, the 28 samples that we 22 Q. Go ahead. 22 analyzed that were taken from before the 23 A. Number three, after the 23 fire. 24 fire, those same PCBs were found 24 Q. Where did those PCB samples 119 121 1 throughout the building. By those PCBs, 1 come from? 2 we're talking about the types of PCBs 2 A. In the T&S Building of 3 that were burned up in those building 3 course. 4 products. 4 Q. Where did they come from? 5 Q. Do you think that was just a 5 MR. MCCLAIN: Your Honor, I 6 coincidence? 6 object. This is not proper 7 A. No, absolutely not. 7 redirect. Every one of these 8 Q. What does that say to you? 8 points was gone over on direct. 9 A. That the PCBs that were 9 It's not redirect. Every board 10 found and that were cleaned up were the 10 we've seen, it's all been done. 1 11 result of the fire incident itself. 11 MR. GOUTMAN: This is a 12 Q. Go ahead. 12 speaking objection, Your Honor, 13 A. Number four, asbestos 13 which I know this curt does not 14 fireproofing after the fire had over five 14 like. If counsel wants to make 15 times the amount of PCBs as before the 15 such an objection, we should go to t 16 fire. 16 side-bar. 1 .j 17 Q. Let me just stop you there. 17 18 Referring to Exhibit 3156, what does this 18 THE COURT: The objection has been made unless there is 19 show, sir? 19 anything further, the objection is 20 A. This exhibit which I used 20 overruled. 21 sometime earlier shows what is called the 21 MR. MCCLAIN: Just so I 22 bar graph. On the left side, the height 22 don't interrupt again, I would 23 of the graph is three milligrams per 23 have the same objection on every 24 kilogram or parts per million. 24 single board he's going to show ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOO6O866 122 1 and as long as I can just preserve 2 that objection, I won't interrupt 3 again unless the Court would 4 change its mind. 5 THE COURT: To this, you 6 have a continuing objection. 7 MR. MCCLAIN: Thank you. 8 Your Honor. 9 BY MR. GOUTMAN: 10 Q. What is the source of the 11 3.0? 12 A. The source of the 3.0 is the 13 testing of the 28 samples from the T&S 14 Building before the fire. 15 Q. Sir, I want to show you 16 another exhibit. You were asked, were 17 you not, on cross-examination about 18 background sampling? Is that correct? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. What does this exhibit show? 21 For the record, Your Honor, we're showing 22 the jury 3157. 23 THE WITNESS: This exhibit 24 is set up like the one I just 124 1 compare, in fact they're a little higher 2 than the results that we found in the T&S 3 Building. 4 Q. The 3.0 would represent what 5 then? 6 A. It would represent 7 background. It's even on the low end of 8 the background in the Harrisburg area. 9 Q. Sir, if in fact PCBs were 10 flying out of the ductboard, would you 11 expect before the fire that the asbestos 12 would have higher than background levels? 13 A. Absolutely. Absolutely. 14 Q. And did you find that? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Now, I think we were at 17 three? 18 A. We were at four. 19 Q. I'm sorry. 20 A. We were at four and we've 21 already talked through that. Number 22 five, Aroclor 1260 was found primarily on 23 the outer layer of the asbestos 24 fireproofing, and that's referring J 123 1 showed. The height of that, of 2 those green bars, is an indication 3 of the relative concentration. 4 But this time instead of just 5 having the T&S Building before and 6 after the fire which is the far 7 left bar and far right bar, it 8 includes the results from two 9 other buildings that are in the 10 Harrisburg area, one is the Milton 11 Hershey School and the other is 12 the South Office Building. These 13 are fireproofing samples taken 14 from those buildings where there 15 was no fire. 16 BY MR. GOUTMAN: 17 Q. What is the significance of 18 this data? 19 A. Those data show that there 20 were also measurable PCB in that 21 fireproofing that I would again attribute 22 to being background samples, or 23 background levels. Levels we would find 24 in the Harrisburg area. And they 125 1 specifically to Mr. Kominsky's samples 2 where he actually took an outer and inner 3 layer, the outer being the one exposed to 4 the air plenum or would have been exposed 5 to the smoke and PCBs during the fire. 6 Q. What is the significance of 7 that? 8 A. That shows that it was 9 deposited largely by the fire. 10 Q. Why? 11 A. Because it's on the outer 12 portion. It's the exposed portion of the 13 fireproofing. 14 G. Six? 15 A. Number six, other 16 explanations are contradicted by test 17 data. I've talked a number of times 18 about the data the State was collecting. 19 particularly the air sampling results, 20 showing that there is, even when the 21 building was reoccupied and the 22 ventilation system turned on again, there 23 was no PCB off-gassing from the ductboard 24 and entering the building, the building ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ60867 126 128 1 space. 1 Q. Surface test? 2 Q. Sir, with reference to 3121, 2 A. Surface test. Again, the 3 is this also an exhibit that you helped 3 levels that were found when the building . 4 present? 5 A. Yes, sir. 4 was - the levels that existed when the 5 building was reoccupied pretty much 6 THE COURT: This is number? 6 already met the EPA safe standard. They 7 MR. GOUTMAN: 3121, Your 7 were extremely low as it is. They were 8 Honor. 8 certainly lower than the most applicable 9 BY MR. GOUTMAN: 9 standard. 10 Q. What other explanation were 10 Q. Would you expect that if the 11 you referring to in the prior exhibit 11 PCBs were going out of the glue, going up 12 when you said other explanations are 12 through the ductboard, that the 13 contradicted by the test data? 13 fiberglass and releasing throughout the 14 A. Well, the other explanation 14 building? 15 I was referring to is the State's theory 15 A. Absolutely not. They would 16 that the PCBs were coming out of the 16 not only be hired and also in likelihood 17 ductboard adhesive and flying or 17 be increasing, which is important, once 18 redistributing themselves, flying around 18 the ventilation was turned on again and 19 the building. 19 the building occupied two and a half 20 Q. And did you accept or reject 20 years during this sampling, there's no 21 that theory? 21 evidence at all that PCB surface levels 22 A. I rejected that. 22 or air levels were increased which is 23 Q. And why? 23 pretty much contrary to what the State is 24 A. Well, for a number of 24 suggesting. 12 7 129 1 reasons, and that's what this exhibit was 1 Q. By the way, in all of 1995 2 designed to show. First as we've talked 2 and '96, of the many air tests that they 3 about over and over, this glue is a 3 did, how many showed PCB Aroclor 1262 4 solid. The Aroclor itself even without 4 levels above the .5 microgram level that 5 the glue is extremely stable. It has 5 you've mentioned? 6 almost no vapor pressure. It evaporates 6 A I think it was around 18, 7 almost a hundred times slower than water. 7 something like that. 8 Q. A hundred times? 8 Q. I'm sorry, in 1995 and 96? 9 A. A hundred million times. 9 A. I'm sorry. 1995, '96, it 10 Sorry. It's extremely stable. It's 10 didn't show any PCB results. 11 designed to stay put. i i 12 Q. Air tests? 11 Q. Zero? 12 A. Zero 1262 air results above 13 A. The air test data, I was 13 that .5 microgram which is half the NIOSH 14 just referring to that. If the PCBs were 14 guideline for air. w -i 15 coming out of the ductboard as the State 15 Q. And how does it relate to 16 suggests they are, even after the 16 the OSHA guideline? 17 building was reoccupied after the fire, 17 A. The NIOSH guideline is about 18 you would be able to detect 1262 in the 18 a thousand times lower than the OSHA 19 air. The State, during that time period, 19 standard which is the only regulatory 20 collected over 5,000 air tests and found 20 standard for air. 21 virtually no Aroclor 1260 or 1262 which 21 Q. If PCBs are volatilized and 22 is totally inconsistent with the idea 22 breaking out of the glue bond, going into 23 that it's coming out and entering the 23 the fiberglass and releasing through the 24 work space. 24 air as the government theorizes in this t ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOO6O868 130 1 case, would you expect zero 1262 detected 2 over .5 micrograms for all of 1995 and 3 '96? 4 A. Oh, no. You would be 5 finding it if it was coming out. These 6 are very sophisticated tests and there 7 were a lot of them. 8 Q. The next one? 9 A. The next one, number five, 10 PCBs were still in the ductboard. The 11 ductboard, all evidence indicates that 12 the ductboard was working just fine. The 13 HVC supervisor said there were no 14 problems with it, it was in good 15 condition. Nothing that I saw, either 16 myself or other people's photographs, 17 indicated that there was a problem at all 18 with the adhesive deteriorating or the 19 PCBs coming out of this ductboard. So 20 it's still there. It's still working. 21 Q. What were the PCBs doing in 22 the glue? What was their function? 23 A. Their function was as a ' 24 plasticizer to make the glue or the 132 1 soot? 2 A. Yeah, more than half the 3 samples were extremely what I would call 4 sooty or dirty. A black coating which if 5 you scraped away the outer layer, went 6 away. In other words, the underlying 7 portion of the fiberglass that was there 8 was clean. Almost like new. 9 Q. And the last entry, an 10 unlikely story, I don't want to get out 11 all of those boards again, but could you 12 explain what you meant by an unlikely 13 story? 14 A. Well, apart from the issues 15 that I've challenged the State or the 16 State's theory on here, in order for 17 their theory to work, a whole series of 18 extremely improbable things have to 19 happen. The PCBs have to come out of 20 this solid adhesive. 21 Q. Why is that unlikely? 22 A. Because it's locked in the 23 glue. It's a solid. It has to work its 24 way out of the glue which it's not going .I I ] 5 131 1 material that it was attached to 2 flexible. 3 Q. If PCBs were jumping out of 4 that glue as the government has 5 theorized, what would happen to that 6 glue? 7 A. It would get stiffer 8 basically. It would not be flexible 9 anymore. 10 Q. And what would happen to 11 that ductboard? 12 A. It would break very easily 13 if you touched it or maybe even under its 14 own weight. 15 Q. Did you actually examine 16 samples of this ductboard? 17 A. Yes, I saw a number of the 18 samples and handled a number of the 19 samples that we received from the 20 ductboard and it was just fine. It was 21 flexible. Pliable. Whatever the term 22 is. 23 Q. By the way, of those samples 24 that you saw, did you detect any smoke or 133 1 to do any time soon. 2 Q. How readily do solids 3 evaporate? 4 A. Extremely slowly. 5 Extremely, extremely slowly. So in order 6 for the State's theory to work, the PCBs 7 would have to find their way out of the 8 glue which is improbable; then evaporate, 9 which they are not likely to do as we've 10 testified earlier at room temperature or 11 at duct temperature which was about room 12 temperature in this instance. It would 13 then have to stay a vapor and work its 14 way through the fiberglass. It doesn't 15 want to be a vapor at room temperature. 16 It wants to be a solid or a sticky liquid 17 which is -- in which case it's going to 18 condense on the fiberglass and stick to 19 it. It's going to stay there. So it's 20 extremely improper and that the PCBs are 21 going to get that far in the first place. 22 But the State's theory also goes to the 23 next step and says that PCB has to 24 somehow, once it's out of the fiberglass, # ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ60869 I 5 134 136 1 it has to vaporize, it has to move 1 and I believe there was testimony about 2 through the ventilation system, through 2 this back in last May, the chamber test, 3 the duct work, without condensing and 3 how is that set up? 4 then enter the office space. 4 A. The chamber test that Mr. 5 Q. What is condensation? You 5 Ewing was trying to do took an 6 said condensing. What is that? 6 established test that was developed by 7 A. Condensing is when it goes 7 the American Society for Testing 8 from a gas to a liquid or a gas to a 8 Materials and it's basically taking a box 9 solid. It goes from being a vapor to 9 at room temperature, putting some 10 being a particle if you will. 10 material in it and running air through 11 Q. How likely is it that the 11 it, collecting the air and then seeing if 12 PCBs aren't going to condense? 12 the material, whatever the material is, 13 A. Well, it's unlikely they 13 off-gassed. And what Mr. Ewing did was 14 would be a vapor in the first place. 14 take pieces of the ductboard from the T&S 15 They would be a solid if they were in the 15 Building after the fire and propped them 16 duct work at all or moving through the 16 up in this chamber and then heat the 17 duct work at all which, as I said, they 17 chamber up to try to cause this to off 18 couldn't be. Then it enters the work 18 gas. 19 space. According to the State's theory, 19 Q. What did he use to heat it 20 it deposits on surfaces, it flies through 20 up? 21 the air and then at some point works its 21 A. He used a sun lamp, a 22 way back up to the air plenum and 22 250-watt lamp bulb. 23 attaches to the fireproofing we were 23 Q. To your knowledge, were 24 talking about. 24 there any sun lamps in the duct work of 135 137 1 The data shows that the 1 the T&S Building? 2 levels were increasing when the system 2 A. No. And sun lamp is an 3 was working. They couldn't find it in 3 extremely intense bulb. I don't know if 4 the air to any appreciable extent. So 4 you've worked with them or used them at 5 the data contradicts the possibility that 5 home, but it's not the sort of thing that 6 the PCBs are moving around in the air 6 you would use to hatch eggs in an 7 space let alone going back up and 7 incubator if you ever dealt with that in 8 attaching themselves to the fireproofing. 8 school. 9 Q. Now, you were asked 9 Q. Sir, as a scientist and a 10 questions about this Ewing test and why 10 PCB specialist, what tells you more about 11 the chamber experiment, why you didn't do 11 what happened in this building, a chamber 12 a Ewing chamber test yourself. Why 12 test where you heat a piece of ductboard 13 didn't you? 13 with a sun lamp, or 5,000 air tests taken 14 A. Well, given my belief in all 14 in the actual building itself? 15 this science I've been describing here, I 15 MR. MCCLAIN: Your Honor, 16 didn't see any need to do it. I've got 16 it's leading and argumentative. 0 17 enough data on airborne contamination or 17 MR. GOUTMAN: No, it's not. 18 lack thereof to convince me that under 18 THE COURT: Overruled. 19 normal operating conditions, that the 19 BY MR. GOUTMAN: 20 PCBs weren't coming out of the duct work. 20 Q. What else tells you more 21 There's no reason to go back and try to 21 than the test in the little chamber or 22 prove it in the lab when the building 22 5,000 air test in the actual building 23 itself doesn't prove it. 23 itself? 24 Q. Just so the jury recalls, 24 A. No question. The building #: ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMON0060870 138 1 itself is all I need to see and the data 2 associated with it to understand. 3 Q. When you have 5,000 -- over 4 5,000 air tests, sir, can you tell us 5 whether or not you think it is necessary 6 to put a piece of ductboard in a chamber 7 and cook it with the sun lamp? 8 MR. MCCLAIN: Your Honor, 9 it's argumentative. 10 MR. GOUTMAN: It's a 11 question. 12 THE COURT: Overruled. 13 THE WITNESS: No, there was 14 no need to do that test. 15 MR. GOUTMAN: Your Honor, 16 before I begin another subject, 17 this might be a good time to 18 break. 19 THE COURT: I think you're 20 right. 21 THE COURT: Members of the 22 jury, as indicated we are going to 23 adjourn at 12 noon. It is now 12 24 noon. Before we adjourn, the 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 140 THE COURT: Well be starting at 9:30. MR. GOUTMAN: No, Your Honor, noon to 2:30. We're going to start at noon and break at 2:30 on Tuesday. THE COURT: Tuesday we're going to start at noon, this coming Tuesday, we will ask you to return 11:45 so you'll be ready to start at noon and we will be adjourning at 2:30. MR. EDGE: Now I can adjourn. THE COURT: Now you can adjourn till quarter to 12:00. MR. EDGE: This court now stands adjourned until Tuesday morning, 11:59. --- (Whereupon, the hearing was adjourned at 12:00 p.m.) 139 141 1 court has advised counsel that 1 CERTIFICATE 2 because of the additional 2 I hereby certify that the 3 assignments that this court has, 3 proceedings and evidence noted are 4 that we will not be sitting in 4 contained fully and accurately in the 5 April -- on the weeks of April 10 5 notes taken by me on the deposition of 6 and the 17th. In fact, this court 6 the above matter, and that this is a 7 will be in Harrisburg at that 7 correct transcript of the same. 8 time. So consequently, I wanted 8 9 to give you advance notice so that 9 10 you can properly plan your own 10 11 lives. We will resume on the week 11 12 of the 24th of April. That would 12 Linda Rossi Rios 13 be a Monday and we would be 13 Dated: March 17, 2000 14 resuming on Tuesday the 25th. 14 15 Ill repeat this later on, but I 15 16 thought I would give you advance 16 (The foregoing certification 17 notice now because this has just 17 of this transcript does not apply to any 18 been determined as of last night 18 reproduction of the same by any means, 19 and this morning. 19 unless under the direct control and/or 20 MR. MCCLAIN: Your Honor, 20 supervision of the certifying reporter.) 21 the timing of Tuesday when we're 21 22 starting Tuesday. 22 23 MR. GOUTMAN: Our hours for 23 24 Tuesday. 24 ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES # TOWOLDMONOQ60871 i J 1 LAWYER'S NOTES 2 PAGE LINE 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 ? 13 14 15 16 17 i 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 _____ > i! iJ ) ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ60872 143 A abatement 85:13,16 able 61:14 86:22 127:18 about 7:7,21 9:13 11:22 12:9 17:2 18:5 18:7 23:11 25:8 28:8 32:14,21 33:15 34:2 35:8 37:21 41:8,10 43:4 48:17,20 51:9 51:22 57:22 58:1,2,4,18 60:10,11,19 64:6,22 65:16 67:9 68:18 69:2 70:11 71:7,8 78:18 79:18,18 80:18 82:21 85:8,15 86:18 87:15,19 88:4 88:1889:12 91:4,7,13,14 91:22 93:13 94:4,8 95:18 97:18 102:9 102:23,24 103:4,5,13 105:4 107:9 107:21109:1 109:14,19 112:10 113:8 114:16,24 115:22 117:8 117:14 119:2 122:17 125:18 127:3 129:17 133:11 134:24 135:10 136:1 137:10 above 1:18 10:18 11:18 11:23,24 26:6 26:18 27:1 41:11 42:6,17 82:19 93:11 94:1129:4,12 141:6 absolutely 20:24 41:14 57:15 96:4 98:3 115:17 119:7 124:13 124:13 128:15 accept 64:20 126:20 accepted 40:11 108:19 109:17 109:20 accommodating 76:1 " accordance 77:5 according 22:9 70:6 87:18 102:6 134:19 accurately 141:4 acquainted 6:23 7:1,4,5 7:19 8:23 14:10 across 65:6 68:22 69:7 actual 64:3 86:20 109:5 137:14,22 actually 10:21 16:5 19:4 25:15 45:24 46:8 49:11 64:11,12 70:12 88:14 97:6 107:17 108:8,9,17,21 109:10 112:5 125:2 131:15 add 32:17 112:19 additional 139:2 address 95:5 adhesive 25:12 67:4 78:1,8 79:8,23 126:17 130:18 132:20 adjourn 138:23 138:24 140:14 140:16 adjourned 140:18,22 adjourning 140:12 adopted 109:6 109:10,15,23 110:1,20 advance 1:11 76:13 139:9 139:16 advice 96:16 advisable 115:6 advise 73:14 advised 139:1 advising 89:17 aerospace 1:9 2:22 affecting 68:20 after 13:13 14:12 15:2 22:5 38:3 60:7 90:9,13 93:5 93:16 100:15 108:7,8,9 114:12,13,24 118:23 119:14 120:6 123:6 127:16,17 136:15 afternoon 75:14,15 again 9:8 20:2 27:6,23 42:9 43:19 52:20 54:10 68:9 101:8 102:22 105:11108:13 121:22 122:3 123:21 125:22 128:2,18 132:11 against 53:18 agencies 114:7 agency 1:5 95:13 106:1 agent 99:7 ago 85:6 91:9 agree 38:5 75:17 ahead 118:9,22 119:12 air 11:13 42:17 53:17 71:4,13 80:22 98:21 109:14,16,24 110:11125:4 125:19 127:12 127:13,19,20 128:22 129:2 129:12,14,20 129:24 134:21 134:22 135:4 135:6 136:10 136:11 137:13 137:22 138:4 airborne 68:24 69:2 135:17 Alan 23:18 albeit 58:21 78:23 allow 112:6 alma 82:13 almost 10:23 32:11 84:2 88:8 97:3 107:6 120:16 127:6,7 132:8 alone 135:7 along 21:3 43:6 73:15 86:5 118:20 already 36:1 102:14 107:22 113:14 124:21 128:6 alter 10:10 always 46:12 america 1:11 90:18 106:2 American 71:21 136:7 amount 48:17 49:2 119:15 analogy 68:24 91:10 92:11 analysis 29:13 43:5 49:6,13 57:12 93:21 analysts 29:22 analyze 29:23 54:21 57:16 analyzed 17:2,8 65:18 77:13 120:10,22 analyzes 67:20 analyzing 52:15 and/or 141:19 animal 99:8,10 anomaly 31:10 another 31:4 36:8 48:7 71:3 97:24 98:1,12 122:16 138:16 answer 44:21 44:24 60:12 114:1,13,22 115:1,5,11,17 anybody 12:5,9 12:13 109:17 anymore 131:9 anything 8:14 57:20,21 68:4 78:7 98:7 121:19 apart 132:14 apologize 113:4 appears 103:14 104:9 apples 53:20,20 58:1 applicability 106:24 applicable 128:8 applied 70:9,14 70:24 97:13 97:14,15 applies 92:23 94:9 101:11 101:16 102:6 102:8 106:7 apply 92:22 96:2 100:16 108:21141:17 applying 70:21 appreciable 135:4 approach 46:21 47:1 Approved 1:19 approximately 84:1 April 72:22 73:6 139:5,5 139:12 area 19:18 25:22 27:16 27:17 34:19 96:20 123:10 123:24 124:8 areas 26:22 31:12 98:17 98:18 aren't 68:2 134:12 argument 72:20 73:2 argumentative 36:16 137:16 138:9 assure 108:4 arguments 1:16 ASTM 72:7 Aroclor 42:17 attached 23:17 65:15 66:4,7 131:1 66:15,21 attaches 134:23 77:10 79:9 attaching 135:8 84:7 117:8,9 attempt 72:12 124:22 127:4 attention 73:13 127:21129:3 attribute around 10:14 123:21 11:16,21 August 24:2 44:10 100:13 availability 100:22 108:10 73:21 126:18 129:6 available 10:8 135:6 13:19 arrive 13:24 avenue 28:2 17:16 avenues 26:21 arrived 17:15 27:11 44:10 51:18 112:15 average 29:20 arriving 18:20 29:24 30:5,10 article 67:19 30:20,22,24 asbestos 62:19 31:17 32:15 85:16 86:16 32:19 42:11 88:3,18,21,24 91:6 120:5,7 90:8,12,14,15 120:20 90:19,21 92:7 aware 58:24 93:6 113:24 away 27:20 114:7 119:13 132:5,6 120:8 124:11 a-ha 49:19 124:23 a.m 1:18 asked 12:21 13:22,23 14:3 B 59:10 77:20 88:17 91:22 B 2:3 4:8 back 13:13 94:7 95:7 103:12,18,21 104:8 107:8 112:10 113:8 115:21122:16 135:9 asking 76:3 82:20 85:5,8 117:20 aspects 12:16 14:4 19:23 assess 115:6 assessment 15:22 24:4 32:21 41:9 50:6 75:16 79:1 85:4 113:1134:22 135:7,21 136:2 background 19:15 66:11 79:12 110:13 113:23 122:18 123:22,23 124:7,8,12 99:6,9 101:7 backup 59:3,5 105:15,19 59:12 110:9 assessments bags 16:7 baUast 25:17 98:23 assigned 72:20 73:1,5,22 114:6 ballgame 75:5 bar 119:22 123:7,7 bars 120:4 assignments 73:17 139:3 associated 7:7 123:2 base 16:19 based 18:21 12:15 19:24 59:11 78:4 138:2 assume 6:18 67:2 77:21,24 28:5 62:7 78:18 91:7 93:19 100:4 100:18 107:19 110:7,8,11 105:21 112:3,7 assumed 81:5 assumption basement 11:1 11:3,11 34:19 63:3 78:4 assurance/quai... 59:12 34:22 35:20 37:4,14 38:14 # f :J ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ60873 144 40:18 44:4,13 98:11 114:18,21 52:22 58:2,3 82:19 commencing 45:2,6,9,20 bigger 97:7 115:9,16,23 62:3 81:13 cigarette 68:23 1:18 basic 68:9,11 biggest 25:22 116:20 117:3 130:1 133:17 circumstance comments 87:11 26:22 27:16 118:13,21 cases 61:22 41:17 41:10 basically 99:9 bill 87:9 119:1,3 121:2 73:2 74:1 circumstances COMMISSION 131:8 136:8 billion 92:15 122:14 123:5 caught 92:20 27:15 41:19 1:4 basis 49:19 bills 86:6,9 123:12 124:3 caulk 88:6,10 cited 18:3 92:17 common 30:4 beat 82:13 birth 100:20 125:21,24,24 cause 136:17 City 1:17 95:4 63:5 68:10 before 1:14,18 bit 7:21 126:19 127:17 caused 25:10 civil 114:4 commonly 87:5 7:9,20 8:15 black 132:4 128:3,5,14,19 causes 41:22 clarification commonwealth 12:2117:20 blue 82:18 135:22 136:15 ceiling 11:18,24 14:22 1:1,20 5:2,3 19:13 22:3 board 121:9,24 137:1,11,14 12:2 63:16 class 95:7 company 1:8 25:7 26:10 boards 132:11 137:22,24 centers 101:24 clean 86:15 1:12,12 2:13 42:23 46:5 bond 129:22 buildings 66:12 102:7 103:1 88:14 99:16 92:24 (j 51:18 60:19 book 17:24 79:13 113:24 centimeters 107:23 108:14 compare 10:11 61:6,20 65:24 18:15 68:6,12 123:9,14 109:2 110:14,15 53:19,20 59:5 67:9 70:16 68:13,13 built 99:9 central 30:4 132:8 61:17 124:1 73:12 77:20 both 53:14 bulb 136:22 Centre 2:7 cleaned 96:18 compared 53:7 78:2,17 83:14 110:11 137:3 certain 9:5 105:6 119:10 89:10 88:22,24 bottom 56:17 bulk 8:3 22:22 13:24 24:3 cleaning 20:1 comparing 90:12 91:23 57:23 58:20 29:12 30:7 101:14 114:14 85:8 96:7 63:8,12 93:5 94:4,22 62:18 65:22 91:17 92:15 certainly 13:10 108:10 comparison 99:15,24 120:3 burned 7:15 19:21 26:1 cleanup 14:2,4 83:18 93:19 100:8 108:15 Boulevard 1:22 16:8 25:17 28:1 57:13 19:18,20,24 complete 72:3,7 112:2,21 bound 67:12,20 117:4,5 118:8 109:13 128:8 86:21 91:9,14 76:22 85:12 119:15 120:6 69:5 119:3 certainteed 1:9 91:16 92:22 114:6 120:22 122:14 box 136:8 burning 25:10 2:18 17:7 94:13,16,19 completed 10:6 123:5 124:11 brand 43:2 118:17 certification 97:13,16 98:6 compliance 138:16,24 break 72:11 business 102:2 141:16 100:1,24 99:20,22 begin 89:21 113:6 131:12 certify 141:2 106:3 108:11 complicated 112:6 138:16 138:18 140:5 C certifying cleanups 96:24 96:23 beginning 100:13 breaking 129:22 C 2:1 3:1141:1 141:20 141:1 chain 50:23 97:5 112:4 comply 99:17 clear 102:17,19 99:17 being 12:23 27:15 47:3 brief 71:2 bring 95:8 cafeterias 102:1 51:2,7 55:11 118:13 57:4,8 clearly 10:3 concentration 42:12,14 53:16,18 57:23 64:7 70:24 73:3 78:9 99:7 broad 2:20 8:17 broadest 19:20 brought 73:12 Buhay 37:10 calculation 21:20,24 22:2 calculations 21:11 64:4 challenged 132:15 chamber 71:19 78:22 135:11 45:4 92:10 107:3 closest 35:18 91:10 92:7 120:5,7 123:3 concentrations 91:17 120:4 concerned 113:9 123:22 125:3 134:9 134:10 belief 111:5 135:14 believe 6:13 building 6:12 7:1,2,11,14 8:1,13,16,22 9:10 12:7,9,17 13:3,8 14:7,8 15:3,20,23 100:5 call 43:9 87:4 93:9 96:15 101:19 110:12 132:3 called 10:19 135:12 136:2 136:4,16,17 137:11,21 138:6 chance 49:8,9 change 122:4 coating 132:4 Cocciardi 45:15 code 51:11 coincidence 119:6 13:16 44:2 55:14 58:18 60:11 concerning 95:21 conclude 14:16 16:1 16:8 19:14 50:8 54:13 changed 110:17 collect 49:3 107:20 116:19 20:7 45:11 20:10 25:13 71:19 96:20 111:22 112:6 108:1 concluded 43:6 55:12 56:18 25:19 26:11 119:21 changes 100:17 collected 9:12 106:4 61:23 62:1 27:10,24 35:6 came 13:13 chaotic 22:18 20:5 62:8,20 conclusion 31:6 64:10 65:20 35:16 42:14 15:1119:4 28:16 32:21 62:22,23 43:18 49:20 81:13 85:7 43:8 44:8,11 22:3 58:4 33:14 127:20 106:23 115:22 86:18 94:6 45:13 46:17 62:13 64:10 characterization collecting conclusions 8:9 99:20 103:16 46:20 47:14 64:12 67:2 46:11 125:18 136:11 8:15 14:1 111:4 120:21 50:7 53:18 77:24 115:24 characterized colors 82:17 condensation 136:1 61:6 66:16,23 116:20 22:14 come 8:8 66:8 134:5 below 10:18 67:3 77:15,17 cancer 99:7 Charles 1:14 5:5 79:7,7,10 92:6 condense 26:6,11 31:5 79:9 80:19 capacitors chart 120:2 98:15,18 133:18 134:12 Bermuda 73:18 84:11 85:9,14 96:13 check 75:12 101:5 114:7 condensing -j Beside 16:21 besides 16:12 86:15 88:7,15 Capitol 2:11 88:22 90:8,21 care 51:13 chemical 52:12 71:11 116:6 120:18 134:3,6,7 121:1,4 condition 12:4 best 46:18 94:10 96:3 101:24 102:7 chemicals 69:1 132:19 130:15 54:17 97:19,22,23 102:24 chemistry comes 65:9 conditions better 49:8 98:1,2 99:15 career 95:16 68:12 comfortable 135:19 between 28:21 36:21 83:19 84:1 bid 85:20 86:4 87:1 big 97:16,21 99:17,22 106:8 107:2 107:22 108:5 108:10,14 112:12,15 113:10 114:12 carried 25:12 25:18,20 case 6:24 7:4,6 8:24 12:15 13:16 23:14 CHEMREX 1:10 Chicago 54:11 chief 113:21 114:2 chose 27:23 57:11 coming 34:12 34:18 126:16 127:15,23 130:5,19 135:20 140:9 conduits 28:2 44:9 conference 72:24 configuration 12:4 ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ60874 145 confirmed 40:15,18 43:22 confuse 60:5 confused 25:2 Connecticut 2:12 connection 13:2 16:2 18:8 18:19 20:20 22:22 61:11 67:16 consequently 139:8 consider 107:4 considerations 80:14,22 considered 63:24 66:10 102:3 considering 110:13 consistent 31:23 construction 12:16 consultant 96:19 contact 91:1 92:8 98:17,18 contacted 6:15 6:19 26:12 contain 118:16 contained 9:4 18:4 23:1 117:9 118:19 141:4 containing 7:15 25:16,17 117:3,7 contamination 25:22 26:2,23 27:3,21 28:10 28:12 41:18 135:17 contents 42:14 42:15 context 71:7,9 continue 73:19 76:2 continued 13:20 107:24 108:1,4 continuing 122:6 contracting 87:6 contractor 85:21 86:5,6 86:12,22 87:3 87:23 contradicted 125:16 126:13 contradicts 135:5 contrary 128:23 control 59:12 141:19 conversation 29:5 convince 135:18 con't 3:1 cook 138:7 cookbook 96:11 97:10 copy 23:10 76:22 80:4 corporation 1:9 1:112:18 3:5 correct 6:21 9:20 10:15 11:14,18,23 13:1114:15 15:5,12,15,24 16:4,20 17:8,9 18:1,10,16 19:6,7,11,19 20:8 21:14,21 21:24 22:1,4 22:12,18,20 22:23 23:20 23:21,24 24:7 25:14,21,24 26:7,17,18 27:5,21 28:13 28:19,24 29:14,15,23 30:1,11,12,17 32:18 33:17 33:18,20,21 36:14 38:4,15 38:18 39:20 39:24 40:12 46:6,20 47:22 48:4 49:11,22 50:2,9,12,17 50:24 51:6,18 51:23 52:6,12 52:16 53:4,9 53:13,15,22 54:2,5,11,16 55:15,16 56:23,24 57:3 57:5,22,24 58:12 63:3,9 64:1,7 65:6,10 65:15,19 66:1 66:5,6,19,24 69:21 70:8 71:1,5,20 77:7 77:11,12,18 77:19 78:22 79:3,4,21 80:17,19 81:2 82:22 87:16 90:4 95:10 100:2 109:3,4 113:11122:18 141:7 cost 85:8,14 86:14 88:14 counsel 2:5,9 2:13,17,22 3:5 34:6 36:22 37:16 39:13 121:14 139:1 countries 94:20 D couple 11:17 27:18 62:15 course 6:22 14:6 15:8 17:20 30:16 33:8 36:20 41:6 68:16 83:7 106:5 115:14 121:3 court 5:3,8,12 14:17 22:3 23:13 24:16 25:1 29:1,4,8 34:7 36:17,19 36:22 37:18 48:10,19 52:21 59:19 D 4:2 damage 37:13 115:6,9,12 damaged 114:20 DANAHER 2:10 dark 35:15 data 8:7 9:12 10:7,10 14:6 16:12,13,21 16:22 19:2,2 20:4 21:3 22:22 24:7 29:13,15,23 31:4,7 35:7 36:3,11,12 72:8,14,19 40:12,14,16 73:20 74:6,11 74:23 75:3,7,9 75:19,23 76:4 76:10,16,20 89:13,17 91:24 100:9 42:3,12,21 44:17,20 49:14 54:24 56:8 59:10 90:8 99:10,10 99:12 100:5 102:21104:2 104:17 105:20 111:3,11 113:3 116:8 108:1 123:18 123:19 125:17 125:18 126:13 127:13 135:1 116:12 117:22 121:17 122:3 122:5 126:6 137:18 138:12 138:19,21 139:1,3,6 140:1,7,15,17 courtaulds 1:9 2:22 courtroom 1:17 69:11113:2 Court's 112:24 135:5,17 138:1 date 1:18 6:14 15:17 17:20 43:21 56:16 58:18 dated 24:2 141:13 dates 56:19,21 daughter's 70:19 day 15:4 74:15 116:6 74:17 75:20 covered 115:13 create 35:7 credibility 75:22 82:4 84:6 101:21 101:22,24 89:15 102:7,24 credible 89:19 days 74:7 84:6 critical 58:14 84:9,10 58:15 101:23 cross-examinat... DCT 80:1 5:11,22 85:6,7 DCT-11 80:6 99:1100:7 dealing 95:12 122:17 96:8 cross-examined dealings 111:18 22:4 dealt 137:7 CRSS 86:13 debris 16:8 CT 80:11 61:23 63:12 cubic 42:18 63:15,20,24 cumulative DeChiara 105:19 12:22 cup 84:5,7 decide 46:13 cups 84:11 declared 5:4 curious 59:15 declined 73:22 curt 121:13 Defendant 2:13 custody 50:23 2:17,22 3:5 51:2,8 55:11 57:4,9 Defendants 1:13 defined 77:22 defining 65:1,2 difference 33:1 66:21 33:4 83:22,24 definitely 65:21 98:14 degrees 70:7,24 different 19:23 79:20,24 19:24 32:5,7 80:24 32:12,13 deliberate 33:12,20 52:7 89:22 69:16,17,18 demolished 71:24 97:8,21 108:15 difficult 36:20 demolition diffuse 69:6 86:13 diffuses 69:7 department 1:2 diffusion 68:19 1:3,6 23:18,24 68:21 24:19,21 25:4 direct 116:4 107:9 121:8 141:19 depending directly 26:13 87:10 97:21 54:3 depicted dirty 132:4 117:15 discuss 106:13 deposited discussed 17:13 120:17 125:9 19:22 94:21 deposition 1:21 discussion 12:22 21:22 100:12 22:6 37:10 dismiss 78:5 113:20 118:3 disposal 92:23 141:5 92:24 deposits 35:3 dispute 89:8 40:4 134:20 distributed describe 113:22 27:8 37:6 43:7 described 68:21 49:15 113:9 112:2 distributing describing 44:7 135:15 distribution DESCRIPTION 32:22 33:14 4:9 39:3 41:10 design 9:24 divide 30:13 46:5,9 80:13 32:17 80:21113:22 divided 47:14 114:2 division 113:21 designated 53:8 114:1,2 designed 127:2 DM 116:5 127:11 document 72:6 detached 73:16 72:13 81:15 detail 51:9,12 87:12 104:18 detect 127:18 104:20 107:7 131:24 documents detected 130:1 85:23 86:3,21 detection 49:4 86:23 87:19 60:17,18,23 87:20,22 deteriorating doing 46:10 81:8 130:18 52:6 69:2 determine 94:13 112:11 27:12 39:2 130:21 46:4,17 49:13 done 8:4 20:22 55:22 61:15 21:11,20,24 86:22 89:16 36:5 50:16 89:18 105:9 51:17 59:6 determined 62:14 67:6 65:14 105:14 87:11 94:16 139:18 94:19 112:14 determining 113:5 121:10 35:22 DOT 25:4 develop 99:5 doubt 36:6,10 developed 62:11 64:18 136:6 down 16:10 DGS 73:19 18:24 27:10 106:9 113:22 28:4 33:22 114:3 34:24 37:3 :J ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ60875 146 39:6 45:19 effect 30:19 111:6 experience feasible 110:12 32:9 33:7,16 46:23 51:9 89:15 evaporate 83:6 19:16 70:18 111:23 33:22,23 34:3 63:16 65:9 eggs 137:6 83:14 84:2,6 70:20 96:7,8 Federally 1:19 34:13,14 84:20 116:6,9 Eight 31:22 85:2 133:3,8 100:18 feel 18:22 20:18 38:23 39:7,22 do-it-yourself either 68:5 evaporates experiment 20:21 40:9 44:14 82:9 96:11 97:9 79:14 93:5 127:6 135:11 78:17 81:18 127:2 133:21 Dr 17:24 130:15 evaporation expert 14:3 fell 63:16 134:14 dramatic 32:12 electrical 44:9 82:21 83:19 96:19 felt 20:21 81:6 five 41:11 33:4 114:5 84:19 explain 116:17 few 12:1 80:22 119:14 dramatically ELECTRONICS even 26:5,15 132:12 fiberglass 120:13 124:22 32:5,7 84:21 1:10 36:11 52:14 explained 128:13 129:23 130:9 draw 8:14 elevator 28:3 99:15,24 28:17 70:15 132:7 133:14 fixtures 9:9 43:17 49:20 44:8 124:7 125:20 explains 116:18 133:18,24 117:9 118:8 92:11106:23 eleventh 41:4,9 127:4,16 explanation fifth 27:4 38:21 flawed 78:23 driving 75:16 41:24 42:22 131:13 126:10,14 fill 50:23 79:2 duct 9:9 25:10 94:3 event 31:14 explanations final 104:24 Fleming 57:19 25:16 64:8 eliminated ever 78:9 81:9 125:16 126:12 finalized 57:23 58:23 i 65:4 80:17,17 30:23 104:9 106:2 exposed 53:17 100:22 59:24 t 80:23 81:7 EMERGENCY 107:17 108:21 55:18 57:10 finally 108:14 flexible 131:2,8 133:11 134:3 1:5 109:20 110:1 125:3,4,12 finals 82:12 131:21 134:16,17 employees 137:7 extending find 28:21 30:8 flies 134:20 135:20 136:24 108:4 every 45:12 70:20 39:22 49:9 floor 1:22 3:3 ductboard end 15:11 69:11 96:13 115:12 extent 111:12 61:1 68:1 75:4 11:10,11,23 21:13 66:17 124:7 118:13 121:7 135:4 77:4,9 78:10 16:6 25:23 67:4,15 70:21 engineer 121:9,23 exterior 88:6 81:9 93:15,23 26:3,6,6,11,18 i 70:22 77:15 114:11 evidence 25:4 extraction 123:23 124:14 26:23 27:4,4,5 78:1 84:15 engineering 34:21 37:7 52:11 133:7 135:3 28:22 30:8,15 117:7 118:7 113:21114:2 45:15 67:11 extremely finding 130:5 31:18,19,20 124:10 125:23 114:4 99:6 128:21 127:5,10 fine 89:23 31:20 32:4,4,9 126:17 127:15 engineers 114:9 130:11141:3 128:7 132:3 117:2 130:12 32:10,23,23 128:12 130:10 enough 20:22 Ewing 78:9,21 132:18 133:4 131:20 33:2,2,7,10,16 130:11,12,19 60:18 135:17 135:10,12 133:5,5,20 fire 7:12,15 9:3 33:22,23 34:3 131:11,16,20 enter 134:4 136:5,13 137:3 9:17 10:19 34:13,14,15 136:14 137:12 entering 125:24 Ewing's 61:22 17:17 25:9,18 38:8,13,14,17 138:6 127:23 78:13 ___ _F 25:23 26:13 38:18,21,22 during 10:4 enters 134:18 exact 6:14 F 1:22 141:1 26:18,23 38:22,22,23 21:13 42:15 entire 72:13 15:16 17:19 facilities 101:11 27:17 28:14 39:5,5,7,21,22 100:11113:6 entry 132:9 exactly 9:5 27:7 101:15 102:12 37:6 38:3,8,17 40:2,20 41:4,9 125:5 127:19 environment 60:13 64:24 103:2,7 39:5,21 41:11 42:1,10,13,16 128:20 105:8,13 94:18 107:6 facility 7:19 42:23 44:14 42:22,24 dust 35:13,15 environmental EXAMINATI... 102:9 45:2 47:18 43:15,16 44:1 35:17,22 12:17 95:12 81:23 fact 9:3 18:14 61:7 65:3,24 44:3,14,15 duty 73:5 106:1 examine 131:15 23:2 25:15 88:22 89:1 45:6,20,21,22 EPA 52:3,5 example 33:7 36:21 39:24 90:9,13,13 46:23 47:20 E 91:1 94:9,24 40:24 46:23 40:17,18 59:1 93:5,17 108:7 94:3 118:14 E 2:1,1 3:1,1 95:7,9,20 83:1 93:2 78:19 89:8 108:8,9 floors 10:15,17 4:2,8 141:1,1 96:12,15 97:8 examples 41:2 91:22 95:2 114:12,14,24 10:18,19,20 each 28:22 97:17,20 101:13,17,18 108:6 124:1,9 115:24 116:20 11:17 26:18 46:24 48:20 98:15 99:1,18 except 41:10 139:6 117:4,6 118:8 27:1,2,19 28:5 69:5 87:7 100:16 101:11 excess 80:24 factor 71:3 118:12,24 28:9,11,17,18 101:15 102:5,6 103:6 excuse 11:24 factors 28:5 119:11,14,16 31:17 41:7,11 earlier 19:23 103:6 105:3,9 52:18 63:19 69:19 70:1 120:6,6,17,23 45:17 115:7 58:3 60:16 106:1,7,14,16 92:18 106:13 71:11 122:14 123:6 flying 124:10 .i 66:10 96:9 107:21119:21 133:10 106:18 108:3 108:12,13 109:19 128:6 exhibit 24:16 24:24 25:3,9 52:24 76:23 fairly 38:10 fairness 76:23 fallen 61:24 123:15 124:11 126:17,18 125:5,9 focus 41:23 127:17 136:15 follow 44:7 early 6:13 Erickson's 116:4,14 familiar 71:16 fireproofing followed easier 116:5 17:24 119:18,20 fans 33:24 40:14 41:5 107:17 ! .. ) easily 131:12 east 47:18 escape 67:21 ESQUIRE 1:21 122:16,20,23 far 13:15 44:2 126:3,11 51:5,8,20 61:16,24 62:16 64:3 following 77:2 foot 7:9 97:23 76:11 2:3,6,10,15,20 127:1 55:13 78:8 91:4 92:6,10 98:1,2 easy 35:21 3:2 exhibits 113:1 82:9 123:6,7 92:12 93:14 foregoing Echt 23:18 essential 73:23 existed 128:4 133:21 119:14 123:13 141:16 106:9 essentially 30:3 expect 22:10 FARRINGTON 123:21124:24 foreign 94:20 EDGE 5:1,14 96:11100:20 26:1,4,24 2:2 125:13 134:23 forgot 82:4 5:19 74:9 107:22 28:15,20 30:9 farther 27:19 135:8 formal 46:9 76:16 140:13 established 39:7 83:5 27:20 first 6:1111:9 formally 19:12 140:17 136:6 124:11128:10 fax 15:7,10 11:10 15:20 109:10,23 evaluation 130:1 20:10 31:18 forms 51:8 ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ60876 147 forth 67:10 86:23 87:6 101:10,13 105:10 106:3 found 7:13 14:11 41:7 42:6,17 53:24 58:19 62:2 66:4 67:19 77:13,23 93:16,18,19 94:2 115:23 118:24 119:10 124:2,22 127:20 128:3 foundation 110:23 four 63:14,14 63:23,23 105:18 108:8 119:13 124:18 124:20 fourth 31:20 38:21 frequency 50:11 frequently 95:1 95:19 Friday 1:15 73:8,9 from 10:11 15:18 16:21 19:3,4 20:3,9 21:13 23:17 23:18 24:18 25:11 29:14 32:4,22,23 33:1,4 35:7 37:1,2,7 42:12 42:14,19 45:10,14 47:18,21 52:3 52:11 53:4 54:23 58:5 59:4,5 60:6 61:15,16 62:13 64:10 64:12,14 65:14 66:8 67:2,12,15 69:11 70:7,17 71:24 73:7,16 77:6 78:1 79:7 79:7,10 81:8 82:21 85:9,20 85:21 86:3 88:6,22 90:8 96:9 100:5 105:1 106:9 106:24 111:2 113:1115:24 116:20 120:3 120:11,19,22 121:1,4 122:13 123:8 123:14 125:23 131:19 132:14 134:8,9 136:14 front 40:23 52:20 fiill 101:20 fully 141:4 full-time 102:10 function 130:22 130:23 further 81:20 112:11121:19 G Gannett 57:18 57:23 58:23 59:24 gas 78:12 134:8 134:8 136:18 gee 40:6 60:1 general 1:2 9:10 12:4 23:24 24:22 39:19 115:5 gentlemen 6:4 gets 35:19 41:18 52:10 getting 6:23 29:23 give 46:18 75:21 76:12 139:9,16 given 26:9 101:17 135:14 gives 49:12 global 23:14 glue 67:12,21 68:7,14 78:8 78:20 83:9,9 83:11 84:16 84:17,24 127:3,5 128:11129:22 130:22,24 131:4,6 132:23,24 133:8 go 6:18,24 9:18 12:13 31:16 43:14 46:5,15 46:16 73:18 87:8 114:11 118:9,22 119:12 121:15 135:21 goes 26:17 60:19 133:22 134:7,9 going 6:6 7:22 9:1,2,3,23 13:14 15:2 24:14 27:19 32:21 41:9 43:14 50:6 52:20 68:2 69:12 72:12 74:12 76:4,24 77:3 82:10 85:4 87:7 114:18 120:3 121:24 128:11 128:11129:22 132:24 133:17 133:19,21 134:12 135:7 138:22 140:4 140:8 gone 86:12 121:8 good 5:7,8 6:1 6:2,3,5,7 63:5 67:23 70:16 73:9 78:14 82:1,2,7,8 130:14 138:17 gotten 8:23 goutman 3:2 4:6 14:21 34:5 36:15 37:15 39:10 72:2,4 74:2,14,18 82:1,3,6 89:7 89:11 90:1 91:20 92:2 102:16 103:3 103:23 104:4 104:6,19 105:2,23 111:9,15,17 112:23 113:4 113:7,13,16 116:10,13 117:20,23 121:11122:9 123:16 126:7 126:9 137:17 137:19 138:10 138:15 139:23 140:3 Goutman's 19:5 government 129:24 131:4 Grant 2:7 graph 119:22 119:23 green 82:5,18 123:2 grid 46:22,24 griding 50:7 grossly 69:3 ground 11:10 11:10 34:15 37:14 44:3 45:6,9,20 guess 100:22 guideline 72:7 107:15,17 109:9,11,14 109:16,19,24 110:7,19 129:14,16,17 guidelines 110:10 Gustin-Bacon 80:3,16 G-B 80:23 H H 4:8 half 58:20 108:7 128:19 129:13 132:2 half-inch 62:17 62:18 Hall 1:17 handing 23:9 handled 55:20 131:18 handling 11:14 happen 43:11 131:5,10 132:19 happened 137:11 happens 42:10 45:3 Happy 82:3 hard 26:8 75:3 91:3 Harrisburg 72:21 73:6 74:5,7 123:10 123:24 124:8 139:7 Hartford 2:12 hasten 84:18 hatch 137:6 having 7:20,20 19:13 25:3 47:5 57:7 123:5 health 23:19 24:19 105:8 105:13 Health's 107:10 hear 29:4 heard 29:4 47:12 71:18 100:7 102:19 117:13 hearing 43:4 140:21 heat 21:13 79:19 136:16 136:19 137:12 heating 70:7 heavy 44:13 45:21 height 119:22 123:1 held 1:17 help 96:21,22 helped 116:15 126:3 Hence 82:17 henderson 2:6 2:6 24:15 75:6 HERSCHEL 2:15 Hershey 123:11 hesitate 52:19 hey 9:16 high 27:2 30:16 30:24 31:12 40:3,19 42:9 60:21 92:8 98:16 101:19 102:3 120:3 higher 26:2,5 38:20 40:19 41:6,17 42:24 44:1,16 60:20 60:20 91:2 93:20 108:2 120:14 124:1 124:12 highest 27:13 42:11,13 him 47:12 73:14,14 hired 128:16 history 55:19 55:21 home 137:5 homes 102:23 honest 8:10 Honor 5:7,9 6:8 23:8,10 24:10 24:13 37:16 39:15 52:19 72:4,10 75:18 76:9,19,21 81:21 89:5,24 91:21102:13 102:17 103:18 104:1,5 111:16113:13 116:11117:18 121:5,12 122:8,21 126:8 137:15 138:8,15 139:20 140:4 honorable 1:14 5:4 hospitals 102:1 103:1 hours 101:21 101:22 139:23 HOYLE 2:14 human 23:19 24:19 99:10 99:12 105:8 105:12 humans 99:7 HUMPHREY 2:2 hundred 84:1,3 84:8,9,10 97:5 97:11127:7,8 127:9 HVAC 11:5,9 33:20 44:5,7 HVC 130:13 I idea 9:19 49:15 127:22 identification 19:22 identifying 101:14 Illinois 82:13 imagine 102:9 immediate 27:17 impact 69:20 70:1 impacts 71:4,12 importance 59:17 important 39:2 46:3 48:8,24 49:3,5 50:1,3 50:12 51:15 51:19,20 60:17 128:17 impression 61:21 improbable 132:18 133:8 improper 133:20 inc 1:10,10 2:22 inch 45:12 115:12 inches 62:15 63:14,14,23 63:24 incident 14:11 14:12 119:11 incidentally 50:16 54:1 71:17 79:17 incinerated 118:20 incinerator 93:3 include 19:21 21:17 101:23 included 17:3 56:10 87:3 includes 51:3 123:8 including 10:24 incomplete 72:5 inconsistent 127:22 increased 128:22 increasing 71:9 128:17 135:2 incredibly 85:3 incubator 137:7 Independence 2:4 indicate 33:9 44:18 45:5,18 indicated 21:9 22:7 45:15 50:11 56:6 130:17 138:22 indicates 130:11 indication 33:13 57:9 123:2 individuals 12:24 37:8 information 4 1 i 1 a J 1 ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ60877 148 13:18 16:11 JURORS 6:5 94:18 96:5 90:22 92:5 liked 58:11 low 91:1 98:18 16:14,16,19 82:2 102:16 106:20 LAWYERS likelihood 124:7 128:7 16:24 18:5 jury 53:12 83:2 110:5 114:15 142:1 128:16 lower 31:1 33:9 19:1,9 20:3 83:5,13 89:16 117:11120:2 layer 61:16,18 likely 133:9 91:2 92:13 57:2 59:3,24 89:17 100:7,9 121:13 137:3 124:23 125:3 134:11 108:3 128:8 60:9,14,22 104:16 113:5 knowledge 37:2 132:5 limit 49:4 60:17 129:18 61:3 85:20 113:15 118:4 63:4 84:12,13 layout 9:10 60:19 lowest 110:12 87:2 122:22 135:24 97:1105:24 14:6 limitations 111:22 initial 46:11 138:22 107:16,19 lead 62:1 73:20 lucky 74:15 initially 26:10 just 5:14 6:18 108:23 109:8 leading 117:19 limited 93:13 injury 105:7,12 9:5,13 20:1 136:23 137:16 limits 60:24 M inner 53:14,17 29:6 31:5,12 known 66:12 least 8:6 44:1 Linda 1:18 M 3:2 62:5,10 125:2 33:6 41:1 47:4 66:15,20 67:3 46:7 49:12 141:12 machine 24:15 inside 12:3 61:5 49:18 50:10 77:16,16 79:8 59:16 60:2 LINE 142:2 made 58:24 j inspection 56:9 57:21 79:14 93:11 95:17 linear 65:3 121:18 115:4 60:23 61:5 knows 83:15 leave 6:7 liquid 83:10 m^jor 42:21 r^ instance 9:2 62:5 64:23 89:10 leaving 67:14 133:16 134:8 make 21:2 40:7 38:13 48:6 66:11 68:2 Kominsky lectured 94:23 list 87:3 47:19 62:21 65:7 66:15 74:3 77:2,13 22:15 42:5 left 119:22 listed 60:24 67:16,17 73:3 133:12 79:12 93:12 46:16 47:2 123:7 listing 103:6,9 84:18,24 instead 123:4 98:18 102:8 64:2 70:7 less 7:19 28:9 literature 18:18 98:13 121:14 instruction 115:5,6,11 79:18 93:15 39:21 41:18 67:22 68:6 130:24 i 57:16 118:17 119:5 Kominsky's 60:11 78:11 makes 41:23 instructions 119:17 121:21 14:14,20 15:4 let 55:9 56:9 little 7:21 46:24 62:2 63:5 51:5 122:1,24 16:13,22 19:2 73:13 111:9 85:18 91:8 70:16 integrity 50:4 123:4 127:14 20:4 40:13 119:17 135:7 92:12 94:14 making 18:19 intense 137:3 130:12 131:20 43:21 50:7 letter 23:2,5,17 96:13,21 97:9 management interact 95:20 135:24 139:17 53:9,11 61:12 106:8,13 124:1137:21 1:5 113:23 interesting 42:4 61:18 63:9,13 let's 83:2 fives 139:11 manager 87:10 73:4 K 64:15 68:17 level 37:4 40:19 LLP 2:14,19 Mancuso 45:11 interrupt keep 29:1 43:4 120:11125:1 106:3 108:3,3 location 42:5 113:21 121:22 122:2 51:11,22 108:11,12,12 47:1 50:5 51:3 Mancuso's Intieri 114:18 68:11 76:3 L 108:14,17,24 61:3 113:10 investigate 81:7 116:21 lab 17:3 19:6 110:12 111:23 locations 35:6 many 10:18,20 13:23 keeping 51:21 51:20 55:11 129:4 51:10 92:8 21:8 50:21,21 invited 95:4 Kennedy 1:22 55:13 56:14 levels 26:2 102:4 70:13 94:12 invoices 87:13 KENNETH 2:3 58:3,6 77:6 27:13 28:21 locked 84:17 94:15,18 involved 96:23 2:10 iron 70:8 79:19 kept 51:6,17 88:23 135:22 Laboratories 38:20 40:19 43:24 44:16 132:22 logic 116:18,22 95:11 106:12 106:17 110:3 ironing 70:18 issue 60:5 95:15 issues 7:6,9 12:18 95:21 55:15 56:23 57:10 58:8 KERR 2:14 kilogram 31:16 54:10 laboratory 51:13,16 52:10 54:3 45:19 90:14 90:20,24 93:11,16 105:6,10 logical 67:1 77:21,24 78:3 long 35:17 57:10 69:10 112:14,18 129:2,3 March 1:15 141:13 132:14 119:24 59:4,6 60:6,9 106:18 107:1 69:13 83:12 marked 80:10 items 87:5 kilograms 89:4 90:4 107:5 108:2 84:7 87:3 Market 2:16 itty-bitty 98:9 30:11 lab's 60:23 kind 10:120:12 lack 135:18 123:23,23 100:14 122:1 3:3 124:12 128:3 look 11:5 13:1 marriage 74:22 .T 22:11 30:5 ladies 6:4 128:4,21,22 28:23 30:6 mater 82:13 Jannetta 23:23 33:13 43:4 LAGNESE 129:4 135:2 31:3,7 34:9 material 7:23 24:20 44:15 51:12 2:10 Lexington 2:3 46:16 78:3 49:2 52:11 Jannetta's 23:2 91:3 92:23 lamp 136:21,22 Liberty 2:15 80:9 55:24 56:2 January 15:15 kinds 101:10 137:2,13 3:3 looked 9:8,9,10 59:7 61:23 21:23 knew 56:17 138:7 life 76:2 10:14 12:2 63:15,17 ! i john 1:22 4:4 5:17 Joseph 113:20 78:18 lamps 136:24 know 8:18 9:7 landfill 93:2 9:16 10:20,23 large 8:6 light 9:8 25:17 117:9 118:7 like 16:8 19:14 14:8 34:16,17 35:12 38:11 42:2 56:3 67:13,24 68:1 69:15,22 70:1 85:1 91:17 r* JOYCE 2:20 jr 1:14 5:5 21:7 27:7,23 largely 125:9 35:9,17 37:1 lark 6:19 26:15 30:5 35:12 37:20 60:15 looking 11:20 93:1131:1 136:10,12,12 Judge 73:12 judges 73:21 judgment ' 45:24 judicial 72:24 jump 31:5 39:4,14 46:12 51:16 55:14 55:17 56:15 56:15 61:8 62:12,13,24 66:9 70:13 last 5:15 17:13 17:23 21:10 50:19 80:9 132:9 136:2 139:18 late 75:16 41:22 42:22 49:21 51:10 57:7 58:7,22 59:16 60:2 65:7 66:11 68:19 73:16 12:16 14:5 16:3,6,7,15 42:20,20 46:12 47:4 62:19 83:13 104:21 Materials 71:22 136:8 matrix 67:21 68:7,14 78:8 matter 18:14 23:2 40:17 jumped 31:21 jumping 131:3 June 56:18 juror 76:7 73:24 76:6,10 79:11,16 81:3 85:19 89:9 91:18 93:1 later 15:8 40:14 139:15 latter 51:7 law 2:6 90:17 90:22 101:24 102:1103:19 110:22 121:14 122:24 129:7 loose 92:12 lot 19:15 21:7 32:22 52:7 62:2 96:17 95:2 97:17 108:18 141:6 matters 73:4 maximum 132:8 115:11130:7 ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ60878 149 29:18 30:16 30:23 33:11 40:2 41:3,4,7 may 5:12 14:7 18:3 24:23 36:20 37:21 37:22 46:8 59:17 60:20 76:8,17,18 86:11 96:9 104:2 105:20 111:13 116:8 136:2 maybe 26:5,24 27:18 40:7 43:17 131:13 mcclain 2:2,3 54:7 64:10 85:5 89:5,9,23 91:12 94:8 102:13,18 103:17 104:8 104:22 105:16 110:22 117:18 121:5,21 122:7 137:15 138:8 139:20 McClain's 89:3 90:3 MCCRACKEN 2:19 mean 12:9 28:24 29:17 29:19 31:24 32:1,3,6 38:7 44:2 55:24 99:2 meaning 48:12 66:17 means 10:23 14:23 63:15 72:23 73:3 141:18 meant 132:12 measurable 123:20 measure 64:11 65:8 measurement 65:7 measures 29:22 mechanical 35:20 114:3 median 29:18 30:2,3 33:7 38:12,12,21 39:9,13,20 44:3 Mega 100:8,10 100:20,23 101:3,6,9 103:14,22 Members 138:21 memorize 31:8 mention 102:11 mentioned 67:9 83:17 95:3 97:4 100:6 113:10 118:18 129:5 met 128:6 meter 42:18 method 71:23 methods 52:6,9 52:15 71:18 MEYERS 2:20 75:21 76:8 microgram 42:18 96:1 98:16,17 109:2 129:4 129:13 micrograms 30:11 31:15 130:2 mid 100:22 Middle 76:11 might 26:4 28:9 28:11 31:4 74:20,21 75:15 93:13 138:17 miles 64:7,7,23 64:23 65:1,3,9 milligram 96:1 milligrams 119:23 million 30:14 41:5 42:6,8 84:2,3,8,9,10 85:18 86:19 87:14,15 88:4 88:8 91:7 92:9 92:17,18,21 93:12 94:1 99:16 119:24 120:10,13 127:9 millions 69:13 83:16 Milton 123:10 mind 8:14 9:6 9:15,22 13:21 97:9 111:1 122:4 mineral 1:8 2:13 minute 11:22 77:4 mirarchi 1:14 5:5 Missouri 2:4 misspoke 39:13 39:15 92:19 misstated 103:23 misstatement 39:11 mistaken 73:9 mixed 78:20 molecule 69:14 molecules 69:5 moment 52:19 64:21 Monday 72:22 73:7 114:16 139:13 monsanto 1:12 3:5 17:6 MONTGOME... 2:19 more 7:18 12:16 15:23 19:15 20:2 22:18 28:11 28:16 49:7,10 73:4 84:19 94:14 96:23 96:24 97:1,5 110:16,23 112:22 132:2 137:10,20 morning 5:7,8 6:1,2,3,5,7 75:13 82:1,2,7 82:8 105:18 139:19 140:19 moron 26:15 MORRIS 2:14 most 10:22 30:4 41:6 94:17 128:8 mostly 19:18 Motions 1:16 move 27:24 28:4 37:17 69:10 75:21 134:1 moved 14:7 27:9 movement 68:24 moving 73:15 134:16 135:6 much 9:14 21:12 27:20 39:8 42:24 47:2 51:8 55:24 56:2 58:5 76:13 85:12 86:14 86:23 87:6,17 88:2,5,13,14 92:13,22 95:16 99:19 115:16 128:5 128:23 mumbling 29:7 myself 26:15 29:7 64:11 130:16 M.D 1:2 N N 2:1 3:1 4:2 name 5:1,15,15 101:23 nature 14:10 20:13 45:17 neal 2:10,10 4:5 5:9,24 6:3,6,9 14:19 15:1 23:8,16 24:13 24:23 25:6 29:6,10 34:8 36:23,24 38:1 39:14,16 48:11,15,21 48:22 52:23 53:2 54:8 59:21,22 72:2 72:10 74:9,12 74:16,20,21 75:1,17,22 76:18,21 77:1 81:20 82:20 112:10 113:8 Neal's 83:18 necessarily 10:12 27:22 necessary 21:2 88:10 138:5 need 20:18 40:9 43:20 78:17 79:5 81:18 96:22 112:19 112:22 135:16 138:1,14 needed 18:23 never 54:1 70:12 103:18 109:16 110:19 112:3 new 43:2 132:8 next 13:15 15:4 27:18 130:8,9 133:23 night 139:18 NIOSH 23:20 23:22 106:9 107:3,15,17 108:2,12,17 108:24 109:6 109:9 110:4,7 110:10,17 111:18,21 129:13,17 NIOSH's 109:24 112:9 none 82:19 99:11 nonfire 114:20 noon 138:23,24 140:4,5,8,11 normal 27:14 41:17,19 135:19 normally 27:5 27:14 51:11 NORTH 1:11 Notary 1:19 noted 141:3 notes 13:7 141:5 142:1 nothing 41:8 78:10 98:5 130:15 notice 31:10 76:13 139:9 139:17 noticed 22:9 number 10:17 12:14 19:23 32:17 40:3,6 42:7 43:11,17 44:9 48:13 49:4,22 50:13 50:14 64:9 68:18 80:22 86:19 92:24 100:15 106:20 106:21117:2 118:23 119:13 124:21125:15 125:17 126:6 126:24 130:9 131:17,18 numbers 18:4 42:10 98:19 120:1 numerous 35:5 nuts 85:17 O Oak 2:11 oath 5:20 object 72:5 91:12,18 105:16 121:6 objection 14:21 34:5 36:15,18 36:19 37:15 39:10 72:9 91:21105:21 111:12 121:12 121:15,17,19 121:23 122:2 122:6 objective 7:16 8:2413:21 46:8 48:2 observation 37:3 observations 46:13 occasion 15:20 95:20 occupancy 101:19 102:3 102:10 occupied 128:19 occurred 27:18 41:12 49:11 65:24 occurring 25:23 odor 45:16 115:14 odors 69:1 off 61:24 62:17 74:11,13 78:12 136:17 offhand 12:12 office 19:5 82:10 89:3 90:3 102:2 103:2 123:12 134:4 OFFICES 2:6 officially 109:6 off-gassed 136:13 off-gassing 22:14 43:3 71:24 125:23 often 92:17 Oh 6:22 57:15 99:4 130:4 okay 54:14 76:12 80:8 92:20 old 43:2 once 35:19 68:14 128:17 133:24 one 2:7,15 3:3 7:18 12:23 15:23 22:8 26:1,23 29:21 30:23,24 31:4 32:9 34:15 41:2 42:1,1,4 42:8,9 44:3 46:21 47:1 49:18,19 53:16,18 56:7 65:5,8,13 69:12 70:5 71:11 75:20 78:15,21 80:6 83:18 84:2 90:17 94:2,5 97:6,22 98:10 109:1114:19 117:2 121:7 122:24 123:10 125:3 130:8,9 ones 51:7 65:21 96:24 only 11:22 15:22 35:19 42:5,16 44:24 66:3,20 67:3 75:19 77:16 78:21 79:8 94:2,5 128:16 129:19 onto 63:16 118:13 open 5:4 35:19 operated 33:19 operating 81:7 135:19 opinion 17:16 18:20 88:9 118:15 opportunity 6:24 opposed 17:17 43:2 99:10 oral 73:2 orange 82:18 oranges 58:1 order 47:13 85:2 132:16 133:5 originally 53:23 61:20 62:20 110:18 OSHA 109:17 i t ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ60879 J 150 109:21,23 110:1,20 129:16,18 other 11:20 12:15,24 16:11,23 18:11,15 19:8 19:9 26:21 28:4,10 31:12 38:7 41:7 42:2 43:6 57:2 59:1 66:11 69:6,12 71:11 73:21 77:10,10 78:9 79:13 98:9 110:13 114:19 115:7 120:13 123:9,11 125:15 126:10 126:12,14 130:16 132:6 otherwise 19:10 37:23 out 6:7,19 7:17 7:22 8:12,21 9:16,18,23 10:13 12:2 14:11 32:8,24 33:6,23 34:3 34:12,19 40:1 46:5,15,16 50:23 53:24 58:19 60:15 62:3 65:9 68:1 69:14 74:20 75:10 78:16 81:9 85:1 92:6 98:21117:5 124:10 126:16 127:15,23 128:11129:22 130:5,19 131:3 132:10 132:19,24 133:7,24 135:20 outer 42:8 53:12,14,16 53:21,21 61:16,18 62:1 62:5,5,6 63:8 63:9 120:12 124:23 125:2 125:3,11 132:5 over 35:6 76:5 85:18 111:19 119:14 121:8 127:3,3,20 130:2 138:3 overruled 89:13 91:24 102:21 105:22 121:20 137:18 138:12 oversimplifying 69:3 own 10:10 20:17 37:1,2 37:23 44:22 51:11112:8 131:14 139:10 owned 96:12 Oxford 2:7 P P 1:14 2:1,13:1 3:1 5:5 package 54:24 ` 57:7 packages 21:3 36:12 56:8 59:11 page 4:3,9 24:10 80:10 142:2 paid 74:10 76:7 ` 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35:2 51:9 96:12,21 114:19 people's 130:16 per 30:11,13 31:15 41:5 42:6,7,18 91:7 92:9,14,17,21 93:12 94:1 109:2,23 119:23,24 120:10,12 percent 99:20 100:3 performed 98:22 performing 71:18 perfume 68:22 69:7 perhaps 18:2,2 39:13 58:13 83:16 112:18 116:5 period 127:19 permissible 29:9 permission 96:15 112:24 116:7 personal 7:18 37:2 63:3 petrified 24:14 phase 23:14 Philadelphia 1:17,23 2:16 2:21 3:4 95:4 PHILIPS 1:10 photographs 14:9 118:2,11 130:16 phrase 100:8 physical 78:18 physics 68:13 pick 28:5,8,10 picked 28:17 42:2 picking 41:2 pictures 117:13 piece 70:21,22 137:12 138:6 pieces 136:14 pile 112:20 piles 13:18 Pittsburgh 2:8 place 2:11,15 3:3 95:18 100:13 102:2 133:21 134:14 places 9:11 Plaintiff 2:5,9 plaintiffs 1:7 19:4 52:24 plan 10:1 46:5 46:18 139:10 planning 10:3 97:1 plans 13:1 plasticizer 130:24 please 5:6 55:3 72:11116:21 plenum 53:17 125:4 134:22 Pliable 131:21 plus 26:24 95:16 96:6 97:11 point 6:23 7:21 8:5 10:2 14:23 15:8 26:19 32:20,21 60:21 62:16 67:15 71:14 87:12 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