Document QJQgV04d4wOdnXXvvoYEZG6qo

FILE NAME: Ford (FD) DATE: 2012 Mar 29 DOC#: FD225 DOCUMENT DESCRIPTION: Legal - Deposition of Roger Wabeke ROGER L. WABEKE STATE OF CALIFORNIA IN THE SUPERIOR COURT FOR THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES FREDRICK C. KENNEY and SHERRAL KENNEY, Plaintiffs, vs Civil Action No. BC468065 ALFA LAVAL, INC., et al, Defendants The videotaped deposition of ROGER L. WABEKE, a witness in the above-entitled cause, taken before Leslie A. Williams, Certified Shorthand Reporter, . Registered Professional Reporter and Notary in and for Oakland County, Michigan at 151 S. Old Woodward Avenue, Suite 200, Birmingham, Michigan, on the 29th day of March, 2012 commencing at 1:27 o'clock p.m. pursuant to the applicable court rules. HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROGER L. WABEKE 2 (Pages 2 to 5) 2 4 1 APPEARANCES: 1 A P P E A R A N C E S: (Continued) 2 3 H .W . T R E Y JO N E S 4 The Lanier Law Firm 5 2049 Century Park East 2 3 CO LLEEN T. CA LA N D R A 4 Harvey Kruse, P.C. 5. 1050 Wilshire Drive 6 Suite 1940 7 Los Angeles, C A 90067 6 Suite 320 7 Troy, Michigan 48084 8 (310)277-5100 8 (248) 649-7800 9 9 10 Appearing on behalf o f the Plaintiffs. 10 Appearing on behalf the Defendant ii 11 Crane Co. 12 13 ERIC ABR AM SO N 12 13 The following attorneys are present via telephone: 14 Michael B. Serling, P.C. 15 280 N . Old Woodward Avenue 16 Suite 406 17 Birmingham, M ichigan 48009 14 15 ANTHONY CHIOSSO 16 Jackson, Jenkins & Renstrom 17 55 San Francisco Street 18 (248) 647-6966 19 18 6th Floor 19 San Francisco, C A 94133 20 Appearing on behalf o f the Plaintiffs. 20 (415) 982-3600 21 21 22 V ID E O T E C H N IC IA N : M A R K C E C C H IN I 22 Appearing on behalf o f the Defendant 23 23 DAP, Inc. 24 24 25 25 . . ....... . . -- 3 5 1 A P P E A R A N C E S : (Continued) 2 3 ROBERT KRAUSE 4 Dickinson Wright, P L L C 5 2600 W . B ig Beaver Road 6 Suite 200 7 Troy, Michigan 48084 8 (313) 223-3670 9 10 Appearing on behalf o f the Defendant 11 Ford Motor Company. 12 1 APPEAR AN CES: (Continued) 2' 3 ASHLEY TATE 4 Wilson, Elser, Moskowitz, Edelman & Decker, LLP 5 555 South Flower Street 6 Suite 2900 7 Los Angeles, C A 90071 8 (213)443-5100 9 10 Appearing on behalf of the Defendant 11 Gardner Denver, Inc. 12 13 13 BO KIM 14 JO H N E. BERG 14 Perkins Cole, LLP 15 Clark Hill 15 1888 Century Park East 16 500 Woodward Avenue 16 Suite 1700 17 Suite 3500 17 Los Angeles, C A 90067 18 Detroit, Michigan 48226 18 (310) 788-9900 19 (313) 965-8417 19 ?n 20 Appearing on behalf of the Defendant 21 Appearing on behalf o f Roger L . Wabeke. 21 Honeywell International, Inc. f/k/a _ ?? 22 Allied Signal, Inc., successor-in-interest to 23 23 the Bendix Corporation. 24 24 25 25 HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROGER L. WABEKE 3 (Pages 6 to 9) 1 A P P E A R A N C E S: (Continued) 1 A P P E A R A N C E S : (Continued) 2 2 3 CHRIS LEWI 3 JAM ES HEPWORTH 4 Booth, Mitchel & Strange, LLP 4 Baker, Keener & Nahra 5 707 Wilshire Boulevard 5 633 W . 5th Street 6 Suite 4450 7 Los Angeles, C A 90017 6 Suite 5400 7 Los Angeles, C A 90071 8 (213) 738-0100 8 (213)241-0900 9 10 Appearing on behalf o f the Defendant 9 10 Appearing on behalf o f the Defendant 11 Borg-Warner Morse Tec, Inc. (sued individually 11 York International Corporation. 12 and as successor-in-interest toBorg-Warner 12 13 Corporation. 13 JAM ES M URRAY 14 15 DANIEL R. V ILLEG A S 14 Prindle, Amaro. Goetz, Hillyard, Barnes & 15 Reinholtz, L L P 16 Rogan Lehrman, LLP 16 310 Golden Shore ` 17 12121 Wilshire Boulevard 17 4th Floor 18 Suite 1300 18 Long Beach, C A 90802 19 Los Angeles, C A 90025 19 ' (562)436-3946 2 0 (310)917-4500 20 21 2 2 Appearing on behalf of the Defendants 21 Appearing on behalf o f the Defendants 22 A lfa Laval, Inc., Edelbrock Corporation and 2 3 Jaguar Land Rover North America, L L C and 2 3 Triple A Machine Shop, Inc. 2 4 Jaguar Land Rover. '24 ' 25 25 1 APPEARANCES: (Continued) 1 APPEARANCES: (Continued) 2 3 DAVID UCHIDA 4 Selman, Breitman, LLP 5 11766 Wilshire Boulevard 6 6th Floor 7 Los Angeles, CA 90025 8 (310)445-0800 2 3 JAMES PARKER 4 Brydon, Hugo & Parker 5 135 Main Street 6 20th Floor 7 San Francisco, CA 94105 8 (415) 808-0300 9 9 10 Appearing on behalf of the Defendant 10 Appearing on behalf of the Defendant 11 Aurora Pump Company. 11 Toyota Motor Corporation. 12 12 13 EDWARD MARTINOVICH 13 JAMES REGAN ' 14 Yukevich, Calfo & Cavanaugh 14 ` Low, Ball & Lynch 15 355 S. Grand Avenue 15 505 Montgomery Street 16 15th Floor 16 7th Floor 17 Los Angeles, CA 90071 17' San Francisco, CA 94111 18 (213) 362-7777 18 (415)981-6630 19 19 2 0 Appearing on behalf of the Defendant 20 Appearing on behalf o f the Defendant 21 Ford Motor Company. 21 Armstrong International, Inc. 22 22 23 .23 24 24 25 ______________________ 2 5 _________________ ___ HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROGER L. WABEKE 4 (Pages 10 to 13) 10 12 1 APPEARANCES: (Continued) 1 APPEARANCES: (Continued) 2 2 3 JASON J. IRVIN 3 KELVIN T. WYLES 4 STEPHANIE L. BOWLBY 4 SALIN EBRAHAMIAN 5 Hawkins, Parnell & Thackston, LLP 5 ' Dehay & Elliston, LLP 6 444 S. Flower Street 6 800 West 6th Street 7 Suite 1100 7 Suite 788 8 Los Angeles, CA 90071 8 Los Angeles, CA 90017 9 (213)486-8000 9 (213) 271-2727 10 10- 11 Appearing on behalf of the Defendant i i Appearing on behalf of the Defendant 12 John Crane, Inc. 12 Pneumo Abex, LLC erroneously sued as 13 13 Pneumo Abex Corporation. 14 JAMES G. SCADDEN 15 Gordon & Rees 16 Embarcadero Center West 17 275 Battery Street 18 20th Floor 19 San Francisco, CA 94111 20 (415) 986-5900 14 15 KRISTI OKUMOTO 16 Foley & Mansfield, PLLP 17 300 Lakeside Drive 18 19th Floor 19 Oakland, CA 94612 20 (510) 590-9500 21 21 22 Appearing on behalf of the Defendant 22 Appearing on behalf of the Defendant 23 Warren Pumps, LLC. 23 The William Powell Company. 24 24 25 ,25 11 13 i A P P E A R A N CE S: (Continued) 1 2 L. 3 JOHN R. LISTER ' 3 4 Palmieri, Tyler, Wiener, Wilhelm & Waldron, LLP 4 5 2603 Main Street 6 East Tower Suite 1300 7 Irvine, C A 92614 8 (949)851-9400 5 6 . T 8 9 10 Appearing on behalf o f the Defendant 10 11 Cla-Val Co. 11 12 12 13 JOHN H. SH1MADA 13 14 McKenna, Long & Aldridge. LLP 14 15 300 S. Grand Avenue 15 16 14th Floor 16 17 Los Angeles, C A 90071 17 18 (213)688-1000 18 19 19 20 Appearing on behalf o f the Defendant 20 21 Dana Companies, L L C incorrectly sued as 21 22 Dana Companies (sued individually and as 22 23 successor in interest to Beck/Arnley 23 24 Worldparts, Inc. 24 25 25 APPEARANCES: (Continued) LANCE WILSON ' Tucker, Ellis & West, LLP 135 Main Street Suite 700 San Francisco, CA 94105 (415)617-2400 Appearing on behalf of the Defendant Jerguson Gage & Valve Company. MITCHELL MALACHOWSKI Gordon & Rees, LLP 101 West Broadway Suite 2000 San Diego, CA 92101 (619) 696-6700 Appearing on behalf of the Defendant Hennessy Industries, Inc. HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROGER L. WABEKE 5 (Pages 14 to 17) 14 16 1 APPEARANCES: (Continued) 2 3 SAMANTHA KOHLER 4 Wood, Smith, Henning & Berman, LLP 1 INDEX PAGE 2 Examination by Mr. Jones 18 3 Examination by Mr. Krause 150 4 Re-Examination by Mr. Jones 151 5 5000 Birch Street 5 6 Suite 8500 6 EXHIBITS 7 Newport Beach, CA 92660 7 Deposition Exhibit 1 43 8 (949) 757-4500 8 Deposition Exhibit 2 57 y 9 Deposition Exhibit 3 67 10 Appearing on b eh alf o f the D efendant 10 Deposition Exhibit 4 72 il Performance Industries, Inc. 11 Deposition Exhibit 5 80 12 12 Deposition Exhibit 6 83 13 STEPHEN FAULK 13 Deposition Exhibit 7 100 14 Bowman and Brooke, LLP 14 Deposition Exhibit 8 104 15 879 West 190th Street 15 Deposition Exhibit 9 111 16 Suite 700 16 Deposition Exhibit 10 112 17 Gardena, CA 90248 17 Deposition Exhibit 11 114 18 (310) 768-3068 18 Deposition Exhibit 12 117 19 19 Deposition Exhibit 13 122 20 Appearing on behalf of the Defendant 20 Deposition Exhibit 14 126 21 Nissan North America, Inc. 21 Deposition Exhibit 15 131 22 22 Deposition Exhibit 16 135 23 23 Deposition Exhibit 17 137 24 24' Deposition Exhibit 18 139 25 ,25 Deposition Exhibit 19 149 15 17 1 A P P E A R A N C E S : (Continued) 2 3 TIM O TH Y C . PIEPER 4 Pond North, LLP 5 350 S . Grand Avenue 6 Suite 3300 7 Los Angeles, C A 90071 8 (213)617-6170 1 Birmingham, Michigan 2 March 29, 2012 3 About 1 27 o'clock p m 4 5 MR. JO N ES The parties stipulate that an 6 objection by any defense Counsel present is good for 7 all including motions to strike. Counsel need not opt 8 out of an objection or a motion. Should they choose to 9 do so, they can make that election at trial 10 Appearing on behalf o f the Defendant 10 The parties have also stipulated appearances 11 Genuine Parts Company. 11 and the stipulation could go on the written record and 12 12 not the video record So stipulated9 13 TRINA CLA YT O N 13 MR KRAUSE: Yes 14 Howard, Rome, Martin & Ridley, L L P 14 MR JO N ES Thank you Hearing nothing from 15 1775 Woodside Road 15 anyone else, fm sure we're all fine Let's go on the 16 Suite 200 16 video record . 17 Redwood City. C A 94061 17 VIDEO TECH N ICIAN We aie now going on the 18 (650) 365-7715 18 video record Today is Thursday, March 29th, 2012 19 19 . The time is approximately L27 p.m 20 Appearing on behalf o f the Defendant 20 The location is 151 Old Woodward, Birmingham, 21 1MO Industries, Inc. (sued individually and1 21 Michigan My name is Mark Cecchmi, video specialist 22 as successor-in-interest to Delaval Turbine,, 2 2 representing HG Litigation Services The civil action 23 Inc. 23 number is BC468065 in the matter of Fredrick and 24 24 Sherral Kenney versus Alfa Laval, Incorporated, and 25 25 the deponent is Roger Wabeke, The deponent may be HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROGER L. WABEKE 6 (Pages 18 to 21) 18 20 1 sworn in 1 might affect workers and people in the environment, the 2 - --- 2 general community 3 ROGER L WABEKE, 3 Q What's your educational background? 4 having first been duly sworn, was examined and 4 A. Military training, Medical Corps School in the United 5 testified on his oath as follows 5 States Navy followed by Fleet Marine B School, after 6 EXAMINATION BY MR JONES '6 that a Bachelor o f science degree in biology, a 7 Q What is your name0 7 Bachelor o f science degree in chemistry, a Master of 8 A My name is Roger Lee Wabeke It's W-A-B-E-K-E 8 science in industrial hygiene, a Master of Science in 9 Q And where do you live, Mr Wabeke0 10 A I live in Dearborn, Michigan 9' chemical engineering, a postgraduate certificate m 10 hazardous materials management, and over the years- 11 Q And is it true that you are the former director of 12 industrial hygiene at the Ford Motor Company7 11 12 I've taken many dozens o f professional development courses, and 1also have about 19 postgrad courses 13 A My exact title was supervisor of the industrial hygiene 13 ` that I would take on an as-needed basis to fill in the 14 section in the Employee Health Services Department of 14- chinks 15 Ford 15 Q When --give me an idea of when you had the difteren 16 Q Thank you 17 A You're welcome 16 undergraduate and graduate degrees as far as what 17 year 18 Q What do you do for a living today7 19 A I'm an industrial hygienist I'm a chemical risk 18 A This is a stretch 1965 or 6 for biology, 1969 I 19 believe for chemistry. I believe 1972 for my Master ot 20 safety engineer I teach I publish 1consult for 20 Science degree m industrial hygiene and occupational 21 industry I - half of my time is with an employer 21 health, 1992 for my graduate certificate m hazardous 22 called Antea Group, A-N- F-E-A, Group I began working 22 materials management, and I believe it was 1993 for mj 23 for them about two months ago 1provide consultation 23 Master's degree in chemical engineering with a focus or 24 for attorneys Am I speaking loudly enough by the 24 hazardous materials engineering 25 way0 25 O Do you have any certifications7 1 Q 21 i 0 G o ahead. I'm sorry 1 A I do 2 A I provide services as a witness in matters such as this 2 Q. Can you describe those7 3 as an expert in various issues on toxic tort What 3 A I'm board certified in the comprehensive practice of 4 else do I do7 4 industrial hygiene and have been since 1973 I'm board 5 Pro bono work is about five percent o f my 5 certified at the Master's level as a hazardous 6 practice. I work out o f climes at Wayne State 6 materials manager, and I'm licensed by the state of 7 University and the Detroit Medical Center, and 7 Illinois as -- by the State of Illinois EPA as an 8 physicians now and then might have questions 8 ' industrial hygienist in comprehensive practice. 1 9 regarding residential and/or occupational relatedness 9 might mention Illinois, to my knowledge, is the only 10 o f their patient's clinical presentation, and I might 10 state that requires licensure 11 be asked to inspect a home or a workplace in that 11' Q You mentioned that you teach7 12 regard. 12 A I do 13 Q It sounds like you're a busy man. 14 A I sure am 13 Q For how long have you taught7 14 A Well, I taught courses on a part-time basis many, man) 15 Q What is an industrial hygienist7 15 16 A In the simplest terms, an industrial hygienist is one 16 years ago at Flenry Ford Community College regarding what I do for a living, and then actual graduate school 17 who studies conditions m workplaces with an idea o f 17 courses that 1teach since starting in 1987 or 1988 18 preventing adverse health conditions in workers with 18 occupational medicine one, a few )ears later risk 19 respect to chemical exposures, physical agents, 19 management, and I can't give you the specific dates 20 biological factors and ergonomic risk factors 20 They're on my C V , and I believe I forwarded it to your 21 The focus is prevention. The textbook 21 office 22 definition o f industrial hygiene to which my students 22 Q You did 23 must commit to memory is that industrial hygiene is 23 A You received that, okay So the specific dates are 24 that art and science dedicated to the recognition, the 24 there. Principles o f Environmental Health, a course 25 evaluation and control o f workplace stressors that 25 that I'm teaching as we speak, and what's the fourth HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROGER L. WABEKE 7 (Pages 22 to 25) 22 24 1 course, Systems in Process Safety Engineering Those 1 correct7 2 are actually graduate school credit course 2 Q (BY MR JONES) Yeah, the people that wrote you a 3 Along with that, 1give numerous lectures to 3 . Daycheck 4 various professional societies I've offered 4 A Well, again that's divulging my clients, and I don't 5 professional development courses over the years on a 5 think my clients would appreciate that 6 variety of subjects at annual conferences 6 Q I'm sorry I'm not communicating this artfully 1 7 Q Where do you teach today'5 7 8 A Wayne State University School of Medicine and in the 8 don't mean the particular clients, but the entity that you -- that you are 9 School of Pharmacy and Allied Health Sciences 9 A 1thought 1was getting to it when 1mentioned steel 10 0 Can you give me just a brief description of some of the 10 11 different places you've worked over your career'5 11 manufacturing and so forth 1mean that's an entity That's what they do 12 A It's extremely -- 12 0 Okay But when you did that work, were you your own 13 MR BERG Other than for Ford Motor Company'5 13 consultant, or did you work - were you a regular 14 Q (BY MR JONES) Well, you can put that in the mix, but 14 employee of the different steel mills'5 That's what 1 15 you don't need to tell me everything you did there, but 15 mean 16 lust give me an idea, or is that going to take up a 17 couple hours of our time9 16 A Well, both I've consulted - as an employee of Ford 17 Motor Company, we had a steel division that later 18 A It could 1believe within my CV that you have is a 18 became Rouge Steel, and it's now Severstal 19 shopping list of the sites that I've personally 19 My department and 1personally provided 20 inspected, and it goes into three or four pages of 20 services for them as a Ford Motor Company employee. 21 small font 21 but since then 1have consulted for several steel 22 Q And I remember that Can you give me an idea of some 22 23 of your employers over your career9 23 manufacturing companies around the country, pretty mucl the midwest 24 A By name, name of the employer9 Well, that would be a 24 Q When did you begin working as an independent 25 bit privileged I don't think my employers for whom 1 25 consultant9 23 25 1 consulted -- 2 Q No, I don't mean that I'm sorry 1. A 1987 2 Q And have you worked as an independent consultant ever 3 A Okay 3 since9 4 Q If you worked for Ford, Ford '72 to '87 5 A I see 4 A Yes 5 Q '87 is when you left the Ford Motor Company9 6 Q If you worked for your own consulting business, Roger 6 A Correct 7 Wabeke Consulting, 1980, that's what I mean 7 Q At any time after 1987, did you have another nine to 8 A Back to your previous question -- 8 five, Monday through Friday job beyond your consulting 0 Q Let me ask it one more time so we are clear I don't 10 want to know everywhere you went i i A But I want to clarify a previous question I also 9 work and your teaching responsibilities9 10 A No 1chose not to do that 11 Q It sounds like you did a good job of filling your plate 12 have my own consulting firm The name of it is 12 without one 13 Chemical Risk Management registered in Wayne County 13 A 1did 14 Michigan 14 Q Okay Thank you very much So in your career you've 15 Q Okay 15 worked at BASF When did you work there9 16 A So I wanted to fill that in 16 A '65 to '71 17 Q Mr Wabeke, can you give me just a brief description of 17 0 And you were an industrial hygienist there7 18 your career, some of the places you've worked over your 18 A 1was 19 career9 19 Q Then you went to Ford9 20 A All right Outside of Ford Motor Company and BASF 20 A Correct 21 Corporation, two major employers that I worked for 21 Q And ever since you left Ford, you've been an 22 early in my career, steel manufacturing, petroleum 22 independent consultant in industrial hygiene7 23 refineries, food processing 23 A Correct 24 MR BERG- 1think he's looking for names of 24 25 people for whom you worked as an employee, is that not 25' M R . J O N E S Let's g o o f f the record VIDEO TECHNICIAN We are going off the recorc HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROGER L. WABEKE 8 (Pages 26 to 29) 26 28 1 at 1 38 p m 1 about your --well, not a little bit I'd like to talk 2 (Off the record) 2 to you a lot about your career at Ford 3 VIDEO TECHNICIAN We are back on the record 3 A Certainly 4 The time is 1 54 p m 4 Q You started at Ford in 1972 5 Q (BY MR JONES) Mr Wabeke, are you familiar with 6 asbestos0 5 A January of 1972 6 Q What was your position when you started at Ford0 7 MR BERG Objection, form 7 A Industrial - my title is industrial hygienist 8 A Well, there are many aspects of asbestos Yes, in some 8 Q And that title changed a couple times, is that true0 9 aspects 9 A Twice 10 Q (BY MR JONES) You know what it is0 11 A I do 10 Q And how did your title change, and when did it change0 11 A About nine months after 1began at Ford, m> title 12 Q Okay When did you first become familiar with 13 asbestos9 12 changed, and 1believe it was nine months I'm not 13 exactly certain on the time to senior industrial 14 MR BERG Obiection, form 14 hygienist, and then in about 1976 I was promoted to _ 15 A I'm going to say about 1959 or '60 when 1was m the 15 _ supervisor of the industrial hygiene section 16 Navy serving on an aircraft carrier 16 We were a division of Ford Motor Company's 17 Q (BY MR JONES) Have you learned about asbestos 17 18 through your education0 18, Employee Health Services Department, and that was my final position at Ford 19 A I have 19 Q What was the purpose of the Ford Industrial Hygiene 20 Q And training as an industrial hygienist0 21 A Correct 20 Section when you joined Ford9 21 MR BERG Objection, form 22 Q Are you familiar with the diseases that asbestos 23 causes9 22 A Our duties were to insure as reasonably we could 23 conservation of the health Ford employees at 24 MR BERG Objection, form 24 manufacturing and other sites at Ford Motor Company 25 A I know the labels of the diseases I'm not a 25 throughout the world 27 29 1 physician I'm not a pulmonary physiologist or 1 We looked at what we considered the five D's, 2 pulmonologist, but I know the adverse health outcomes 2 prevention of significant discomfort in workers. 3 that can originate in sufficient dose and certain 3 prevention of reversible health disorders, prevention 4 chromcities 4 of irreversible disease and prevention of deaths, and 5 MR IRVIN 1move to strike to the extent 5 as a corollary to that, as safety engineers, the 6 that is beyond the scope of this deposition and calls 6 prevention of significant property damages I think 7 for expert testimony 7 that's five D's, sort of a slogan that we had 8 Q (BY MR JONES) And based on your training, what are 8 Q Did preventing asbestos related injuries in Ford 9 the health consequences of exposure to asbestos9 9 employees fall within the five D's you mentioned0 10 MR IRVIN Same objection 11 MR BERG Form and foundation 10 A It did 11 Q And was that a goal of yourself when you joined - that 12 A Shall I proceed in answering0 12 sounded terrible 13 MR BERG Yes 14 A One is asbestosis which is a pneumoconiosis, a dust 15 disease of the lungs that results from inhalation of 16 respirable asbestos fibers of a certain length with 17 ratio We call it the aspect ratio 13 Was prevention of asbestos diseases one ot 14 ' your jobs when you joined Ford in 19729 15- MR BERG Objection, form, foundation 16 A It was one of numerous, yes 17 Q (BY MR JONES) It wasn't the only thing, but it's one 18 Another is lung cancer, supported 18 of the things0 19 synergistically by tobacco smoking The third is 20 pleural mesothelioma I he fourth is peritoneal 21 mesothelioma 19 A It is - it was, yes 20 Q How many people were in the Ford Industrial Hygiene 21 Department when you joined that department9 22 There is some debate by some about other 22 A It's a stretch Six 1believe 23 tissue sites m the human body I'm not up to speed on 23 Q Did it grow over time0 24 that 24 A It did 25 Q (BY MR JONES) I'd like to talk to you a little bit 25 Q Can you describe - let me ask it this way HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROGER L . WABEKE 9 (Pages 30 to 33) 30 32 1 When you left in 1987, how many people were in 1 physicians and nurses at the various Ford facilities 2 the Industrial Hygiene Section? . 2 around the country 3 A I'm sorry I don't have a recall. It was less than 3 Q Ford had a corporate medical department9 4 when we were at the apex, the zenith o f employment. , 4 A It did 5 My best call was when I left Ford in '87 there 5 Q And was industrial hygiene a section of Ford's Medical 6 were about seven or eight industrial hygienists, five 6 Department? 7 chemists --well, three chemists and two technicians 7 A Yes 8 and two administrative assistants 9 Q That's within the Industrial Hygiene Section9 8 ' Q Okay How many medical doctors did Ford when you 9' started m 19729 10 A Correct Oh, I'm sorry There were industrial 11 hygienists in a few o f the larger divisions as well 12 In other words, they worked in a segment o f the 13 corporation -- of the company 10 A It's very difficult to answer your question We had 11 some at the corporate level, perhaps two, maybe three 12 MR BERG He doesn't want you to guess If 13 you know ' 14 0 Meaning there were industrial hygienists that were pan 14 A Well, I don't know the exact number We are going 15 o f the Industrial Hygiene Section where you worked9 15 back - 16 A Yes. 16 Q (BY MR JONES) I don't want you to guess, but 1wan 17 Q And then there were industrial hygienists assigned to 17 you to give me your best recollection, your best 18 particular departments at Ford9 18 estimate based on your recollection 19 A Two or three, yes 19 A Well, conservatively at least one We had a corporate 20 0 For example9 20 medical director when I hired in, and I'm not sure if 21 A Automotive Assembly Division 21 22 Q We need you all to mute on the phone please Can you 22 he had assistant medical directors at that tune He did later, but then at our larger manufacturing plants 23 give me an example9 23 we had a plant physician with a nursing staff 24 A Of what9 25 Q. I'm going back in time like that interruption that we 24 0 At each large manufacturing plant9 25 A Correct 31 33 i are having I'll let you know 2 Can you give me an example of industrial 1 Q There would be a M D , medical doctor, with nurses tha 2 worked under that doctor9 3 hygienists that worked at Ford that weren't in your 3 A Correct 4 section9 5 A As I recall, there were three facilities within Ford 4 Q Okay Did the corporate medical department grow over 5 time9 6 Motor Company, and the largest was our automotive 6 A It did 7 assembly division We had at that time, as I recall, 7 Q Can you describe that for me9 8 about 17 or 18 car, truck and tractor assembly plants 8 A The corporate department hired an epidemiologist 9 throughout the United States and Canada 9 Shortly after I began working for Ford Motor Company, 10 There was an industrial hygienist for - 10 there was a need to have at least one toxicologist on 11 again it's a stretch, and 1apologize - for our paint . 11 staff, and about two or three years after I began 12 and vinyl division We manufactured fabrics and paints 12 working for Ford, that person was added to my manager? 13 for Ford vehicles, and another one was assigned I 13 department So the corporate department grew m that 14 bel leve to our casting division These were our 14 sense 15 foundries 15 Beyond that, I don't believe there were any 16 Q Did you work with other sections or departments within 16 others Oh, pardon me Over time there were two 17 Ford m the prevention of injuries and disease of Ford 17 assistant medical directors or associate medical 18 employees9 18 directors reporting to the medical director 19 A Yes 19 Q And the assistant medical directors were medical 20 Q What other sections or departments did you work with9 20 doctors also9 21 A Human relations at our various facilities, plant 21 A They were 22 engineering departments Those are the two major 22 Q While you were at Ford, were you active in any 23 O f course, the corporate medical department, 23 industrial hygiene societies9 24 we interface because at a corporate level they were a 24 A Yes 25 part o f my department, and then we would interface with 25 Q Tell me about those , HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROGER L. WABEKE 10 (Pages 34 to 37) 34 36 1 A Two, the American Industrial Hygiene Association and 2 the Michigan chapter, the Michigan Industrial Hygiene 1 Q (BY MR JONES) Do you know if they got things like 2 the Journal o f the American Medical Association or the 3 Society of the first one I mentioned 3 New England Journal of Medicine9 4 0 The national and the Michigan chapters9 5 A Correct 4 MR KRAUSE Objection, foundation 5 MR BERG Asked and answered 6 Q Were other members of Ford's industrial hygiene team 6 A It was asked and answered 1would see copies of those 7 members of the American Industrial Hygiene Association9 7 lournals on the desks of the doctors when 1went to 8 A. To my knowledge, all were I should also mention I was 8 meet with them That doesn't mean they had a 9 a member of the American Academy of Industrial Hygiene 9 subscription 10 as a board certified industrial hygienist 11 Q Your recollection is all Ford's industrial hygienists 12 were members of the American Industrial Hygiene 10 Q (BY MR JONES)' Fair enough When you met with 11 doctors, you would see other journals like the 12 Journal of the American Medical Association, 13 Association9 13 New England Journal of Medicine, those things on 14 A Again this is a dynamic situation People would 14 their desk9 15 leave We'd hire People would resign They would 15 A Yes 16 transfer I can't speak to all of those people over 17 the years The lion's share of them were, not all 16 Q You don't know if they delivered them monthly or 17 went to the book store and got them or how they got 18 Q Thank you for that clarification 19 A You're welcome 18 them9 19 A 1have no idea 20 Q Did Ford's Industrial Hygiene Section or the Division 21 of Employee Health Services do anything to keep 20 Q Okay Thank you The industrial hygiene section had i 21 library9 22 informed about occupational hazards9 22 A Yes 23 MR BERG Objection, form 23 Q Did the medical division also have a library9 24 A Well, it's very broad Speaking to my department we 24 A A library is a broad term It was almost Helter 25 did We subscribed to journals We had a library We 25 Skelter for both departments It wasn't stocked the 35 37 i attended conferences, short courses in various 1 way we would have liked to have seen it. Yes, we had 2 activities just to try to stay abreast o f the latest 2 books. We had a library. 3 developments in the field. 4 Q. (BY MR JONES). What journals did the division 5 subscribe to9 3 Q. And what sorts o f books did you keep in the industrial 4 hygiene library9 5 A Well, these would be books on chemical toxicity, 6 A The American Industrial Hygiene Association Journal, 6 physical agents such as noise, heat strain, radiation 7 the Journal of Occupational and Environmental Health. 7 and so forth 8 Those are the two journals that circulated -- that my 8 We had some classic textbooks on ergonomics. 9 budget allowed for 9 biological risk factors We had some generic 10 Now and then other journals within the 10 industrial hygiene books that perhaps were used for an 11 company, say from the medical department, would be - 11 introductory graduate school course in industrial 12 passed through our department for a need to know based 12 hygiene. We had regulations, of course. 13 on the medical director, but it wasn't systematic. 13 Q 1want to talk to you a little bit about the 14 If there was a need that might be relevant to 14 relationship between the industrial hygiene division 15 what we were doing, corporate medical would share 15 and some o f the other departments you mentioned, the 16 either the journal or an article from the journal for 16 nonmedical departments like the plant engineering and 17 our edification 17 HR Okay9 18 Q Did the corporate medical department receive 19 periodicals also, journals9 20 MR BERG: Objection, form, foundation 18 A Correct 19, Q My understanding - and correct me if I'm wrong - the 20 job o f the industrial hygiene section was to identify' 21 MR KRAUSE. Objection, form, foundation 21 hazards in the workplace at Ford manufacturing 22 A 1can only presume I don't know 1know they had the 22 facilities, is that correct9 23 Journal o f Occupational Environmental Medicine. In 23 MR. BERG. Objection, form 24 fact, 1know they subscribed to that. That's the only 24 MR. KRAUSE. Objection, relevance. 25 one 1can speak to 25 A In part, yes, we had manufacturing facilities We had HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROGER L. WABEKE 11 (Pages 38 to 41) 38 40 1 parts warehousing, distribution facilities, those sorts '1 comply with our recommendations or come up with a 2 of things, research and development 2 feasible alternative that accomplished the same 3 0 (BY MR JONES) Your focus was on protecting Ford 3 objective 4 employees, is that right9 4 Q (BY MR JONES) And thank you for that What 1meant 5 A Exclusively, yes 5 was it wasn't like you showed up at a plant, saw a 6 0 When you identified hazards, you would recommend work 6 hazard and then you could declare martial law and 7 practices to eliminate those hazards9 7 change everybody's work practices9 8 MR BERG Objection, form, foundation 8 MR KRAUSE Relevance 9 A In the broadest sense, that's correct We had to 9 MR BERG Objection, form 10 consider cost benefit ratios, those sorts of things, 10 A Was that a statement or a question9 11 frequency of occurrence, all sorts of things 11 Q (BY MR JONES) Well, I guess I'm trying to - I'll 12 It would be silly to spend a lot of money on 12 withdraw the question 13 an one time occurrence So we had to balance many, 13 One of the things you also wanted to do as an 14 many factors in arriving at a reasonable decision that 14 industrial hygienist was make sure that workers were 15 would benefit notjust the employees but Ford Motor 15 informed of hazards9 16 Company as well because we walked a tight line between 16 A Yes 17 Ford and their employees We had to consider that in 17 Q. Why is it important to inform workers of occupational 18 our decision making process 18 hazards9 19 Q (BY MR JONES) It sounds like the industrial hygiene 19 A The worker in many cases is in a good position to 20 department didn't make decisions on changing work 20 recognize signs and symptoms, assuming they had been 21 practices on their own9 21 trained in hazard communication, that they in turn 22 MR BERG Objection, form 22 23 MR KRAUSE Objection, foundation 23 24 A My department made recommendations and suggestions 24 might be able to share with their primary care physician on the question that maybe, doctor, I'm over exposed, I work with this chemical, do you see a nexus 25 Whether those were implicated or installed in the 25 between my exposure and what you're finding 39 41 1 plants, sometimes they were Sometimes they 1 clinically 2 weren't The best we could do is give our best 2 Also the workers are often the first line 3 professional advice to our facilities on what we 3 along with their supervisor to recognize when 4 observed 4 situations are out of control, and either through a 5 Q (BY MR JONES) So your department, the Industrial 5 chain of command or deliberately, directly depending Qn 6 Hygiene Department, would make recommendations and 6 the urgency of the situation take matters in hand to 7 suggestions to, say, a plant manager about safe work 7 abate the problem. 1 hope that was responsive 8 practices9 8 Q It was It was Would you agree with me that when a 9 A Precisely 9. worker knows the consequences of not following safe 10 0 And they might follow the recommendations and 10 practices, meaning what harm can come to them, they're 11 suggestions They might not9 11 more likely to follow those practices9 12 A Correct, or in some cases they might have a better 12 MR KRAUSE Objection, relevance 13 alternative because they were close to the issue at 13 MR BERG Form, foundation 14 hand Through dialogue we'd arrive at a solution 14 A Could you rephrase that please9 It sounds like a, with 15 Q You could work with the plant manager, and between the 15 all due respect, a double negative 16 two of you come to a solution9 16 Q (BY MR JONES) I've done that before, and 1probably 17 A Yes 17 did it right here 18 Q But ultimately it was management that had to implement 18 Would you agree with me that it is important 19 the suggestions or recommendations9 19 that workers understand the consequences of not 20 MR BERG Objection, form 20 following safe work practices9 21 A No Again we were advisory Arguably there could have 21 A Yes, I would agree 22 been somebody at the plant facility that knew about 22 Q Why9 23 industrial hygiene than we ever knew, and based on 23 A Well, if they don't understand the gravity of the 24 that, not implement it So 1want to give the benefit 24 hazard and how it might impact then health or those 25 of the doubt, but it was the suggestion that they 25 working around them or the physical plant, they're not HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROGER L. WABEKE 42 1 in a position to intervene as needed 1 2 I'm not suggesting for a minute that the !2 3 ultimate responsibility is the worker It should be a 3 4 team approach through supervision, corporate guidance 4 5 as an overall culture to arrive at what you'rejust 5 describing 6 7 Q You mentioned that there were instances where 7 8 management did not follow recommendations from the 8 9 industrial hygiene section9 9 10 MR BERG Objection That's not what he 10 11 said 11 12 MR JONES I'll finish it, and he can correct 12 13 it if it needs correcting 13 14 Q (BY MR JONES) Any time you need to correct something 14 15 I say, you feel free, and you don't seem shy about it, 15 16 so 1don't think it's going to be a problem 16 17 Correct me if I'm wrong, but you mentioned 17 18 before that there were occasions where management did 18 19 not follow the recommendations or suggestions of the ' 19 2C Industrial Hygiene Department, is that true9 20 21 A In some cases, correct 21 22 0 And do you recall if that happened in areas related to 22 23 asbestos hazards9 23 . 24 A Ultimately I would say no Ultimately we got 24 2 5 compliance Sometimes there was for lack of a better 25 43 1 term dragging of their feet because others had better i 2 ideas, but eventually we prevailed 2 3 Q I'm going to show you what I'm going to mark as 3 4 Exhibit 1 to the deposition 4 5 (Deposition Exhibit Number 1 5 6 was marked for identification) 6 7 (Off the record) 7 8 0 (BY MR JONES) I'm showing you what I've marked as 8 9 Exhibit 1 to the deposition 9 10 MR KRAUSE Do you have another copy of that, 10 11 Counsel9 11 12 MR JONES I don't, but I could show it to 12 13 you briefly 13 14 A Would you like me to read this9 14 15 Q (BY MR JONES) Yes 15 16 A Well, it's not dated This would be helpful for me 16 17 Usually I date my -- 17 18 MR BERG There is really not a question 18 19 pending 19 20 A I'm sorry 20 21 MR BERG Read the document and then - 21 22 Q (BY MR JONES) Let me know when you're ready 22 ` 23 A I've read it 2 3- 24 Q Is this a note from you9 24 25 A It is 25 12 (Pages 42 to 45) 44 MR KRAUSE I'm going to put an objection on the record to any questions about this document There is no evidence in this case that I'm aware of that your client ever entered the plant referred to in this exhibit, and this is not going to be a free wheeling questioning about all Ford Motor Company plants. Your client was never in one. MR. BERG. Is that a fair statement, Trey, he was never in Dearborn Glass9 MR. JONES Yes MR BERG. So why are we talking about this9 MR JONES' I'm going to do my examination MR. KRAUSE. Well, if you're going to keep this up, I'm going to terminate it because this is not a fishing expedition about what might or might not havs gone on at the Dearborn Glass Plant Your client never got near it, and there is no allegation in this case that he worked there. MR JONES Okay MR. KRAUSE I'mjust warning you MR. JONES' Listen, if you need to terminate the deposition, that's what you need to do If you do _ that and we find out you don't have proper grounds to do it, I'll seek sanctions If I have to fly back to Detroit, you'll pay for the flight. So you make your 45 decisions about terminating the deposition That's your decision I'm happy to appear before a court in California and defend myself. I'm happy to.appear before a court in Michigan and defend myself I believe this is relevant to issues in my case I'm going to examine the witness on it You can have a running objection on the basis you've just described to this particular exhibit You can object to the individual questions, but the way this happens is we get the discovery There is no judge here, and then a judge determines if it's relevant or not We don't decide that here So I'm going to continue my examination respectfully MR BERG Hold on for a second Can I add something, Trey? MR. JONES' Sure MR BERG- Here's the issue that 1have, okay The issue that 1have is that witness has been called as a percipient witness, not an expert witness,and you know in California and in Michigan that you can't compel him to give expert testimony, right9 MR. JON ES Right MR BERG. So 1presume the predicate for your examination is that your client would have been similarly exposed. HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROGER L. WABEKE 13 (Pages 46 to 49) 46 48 1 MR JONES I don't have to explain to you-- 1 Q (BY MR JONES) It appears that whenever you wrote 2 MR BERG I'm not asking you to 2 this note, you were under the impression that a plant 3 MR JO N ES --why I'm doing the examination 3 manager wasn't following your recommendations about 4 I'm going to do my examination, but 1agree with you 4 asbestos hazards, is that true9 5 he's been called as a percipient witness, and I'm 5 A Yes 6 asking him about a letter that he -- you authored this 6 MR BERG Objection, form, foundation 7 note, is that true9 8 A 1did, but my note says attached concerning studies 7 Q (BY MR JONES) What was your answer9 8 A Res ipsa loquitur It speaks for itself 9 The studies are not attached So this is out of 9 Q And your answer was yes9 10 context for me Without those studies, I'm hamstrung 10 A Yes 11 Q (BY MR JONES) Fair enough Fair enough But this 11 12 is your handwriting9 12 MR JO N ES Thank you 1didn't think that one was going to be that contentious Calm down a 13 A It is 13 little bit, huh I didn't know that guy had that much 14 Q Okay And you wrote this while you were employed at 14 15 the Ford Motor Company9 15 fire l like it MR KR AU SE It's early 16 A i did 16- MR JO N E S I know We're just getting warmed 17 Q Okay And there are studies attached that aren't here, 17 up 18 true9 18 Q (BY MR JONES) It wasn't your decision to put 19 A Well, I don't have them Perhaps you do 19 warnings on products that Ford sold, is that true9 20 Q I don't, and I don't mean to -- I'm not hiding them 21 back here 20 A Not directly, no Now and then the Ford Parts and 21 Services Division would ask for input from our 22 A It would be helpful if you knew the legacy of the 22 toxicology department and my department preceding 23 studies this memo generated - that led to the 23 toxicology on the quality of the warnings that had been 24 generation of this memo 24 proposed by our marketing group for aftermarket 25 Q Fair enough You did author this memo, true9 25 products 47 49 1 A I did 1 Q You could make recommendations and suggestions to the 2 Q And you authored the memo while you were an employee at 2 people responsible for warnings9 3 Ford, true9 3 A Yes 4 A True 5 Q And you authored the memo while you were working at 4 Q And you said the warnings were determined by what 5 group9 You mentioned marketing Who was in charge of 6 Ford's Industrial Hygiene Section, true9 6 warnings9 7 A Correct 7 A 1can't give names, but our sales and marketing for 8 Q We don't know how this ended up9 9 A How what9 8 aftermarket products such as paint sprays and vinyl 9 redressing compounds and windshield washer fluids, * ] 0 MR BERG Whoa, whoa, whoa 10 those sorts of things 11 A How what ended up9 12 Q (BY MR JONES) There is nothing nefarious about my 13 question When I'm done with my question - 11 Q So for aftermarket products the sales and marketing 12 department decided whether or not a warning should be 13 applied to a product9 14 MR BERG You were done with your question 14 A Not all products, chemical products 15 MR JONES I wasn't ie MR BERG Okay I'm sorry Go ahead 15 Q Asbestos products9 16 A No 12 Q (BY MR JONES) 1was not 1don't have any memos or 17 Q Who decided whether or not an asbestos warning went or H' anything that happened after this 18 an asbestos aftermarket product9 19 A Or before 19 A 1have no idea We relied on our manufacturers for 70 Q Or before 20 quality warnings, but we didn't do that We didn't 21 MR KRAUSE We don't know what the date is 21 manufacture asbestos We didn't supply asbestos in 22 MR JONES I'm going to explain all that 22 bulk form to retail customers It was not our 23 Now, if you want to ask him questions when I'm done. 23 tesponsibility 24 knock >ourselt'out, but let me do my examination 24 Q But the Tord M otor Com pany bought, for exam ple. 5 please 25 asbestos brakes, true9 HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROGER L. WABEKE 14 (Pages 50 to 53) 50 52 1 A They did 1 studying the air flow ventilation characteristics 2 Q They bought them in bulk, true9 2 inside and outside the vehicle 3 A True 3 Now and then there would be - in fact, 4 Q They then packaged them in Ford Motor Company boxes. 4 5 true9 5 Mr Krause about 1986 1believe I was in his office m downtown Detroit as the last time 1was a fact witness 6 A No We installed them on vehicles & regarding some Ford employee's exposure to something 1 0 Also sold them as aftermarket parts, true'? 7 I don't remember the details 8 A I don't know what the working relationship was, if we 8 Q Was Ford's legal department involved in decisions abou 9 sold them directly or if they were sold directly by the 9 whether or not to include a warning on a product sold 10 wholesaler to the dealers, for example 10 to consumers9 11 Q You're not aware of that7 12 A I'm not aware 11 MR BERG Objection, form, foundation 12 MR KRAUSE Objection 13 Q Okay If Ford did sell asbestos products m its own 13 A 1have no idea 14 packaging, and you're saying you don't know if they did 14 Q (BY MR JONES) While you were at Ford, one of 15 or they didn't9 15 the concerns of yourself and your department was 16 A I have no idea 16 controlling exposures to asbestos, is that true9 17 Q Okay You don't know who would be in charge of 17 A It was one, yes 18 supplying those warnings9 18 Q Was that one of your concerns when you started in 19 A No 19 19729 20 0 Okay Your staff was not in charge of determining 20 A Yes, because I was knowledgeable about the hazards. 21 whether or not an asbestos warning went on products 21 some of the -- at least asbestosis as a risk factor m 22 that Ford sold if they included asbestos9 22 the 1950's before Dr Sehkoffs studies of cancer in 23 MR BERG In the aftermarket9 23 asbestos, but I certainly was aware of that, and as a 24 MR JONES Anywhere 24 medical corpsman on an aircraft carrier built in World 25 A Well, now and then we might encounter an asbestos 25 War 11 which was replete with asbestos, I became aware 51 53 1 product in the manufacturing operations that had no 1 of the hazards of asbestos dust inhalation 2 warnings or flimsy warnings That was our 2 MR JONES Let me know if you're picking up 3 responsibility, but as far as aftermarket products, we 3' the flipping of paper 4 had no jurisdiction there 4 MR BERG I'm sorry 5 Q (BY MR JONES) And you didn't have any input say or, 5 6 supplying warnings with new Ford Motor vehicles that 6 MR JONES I'm not saying you are I'mjust saying sometimes, so let me know 7 had asbestos components in them9 7 MR BERG If I'm doing something that picks 8 A No, sir 8 up, just let me know 9 0 Okay Did Ford have a legal department when you were 9 MR JONES I'm not accusing >ou of anything 10 there9 10 but sometimes people 11 A They did 11 0 (BY MR JONES) So when you started at Ford in 1972, 12 Q And did you ever have any interaction with the legal 13 department9 12 you knew some things about asbestos hazards, true9 13 A 1did 14 A 1did 14 Q Now, when you showed up, were you the only one that 15 Q What interaction did you have with the legal 16 department9 15 knew it9 16 MR BERG Objection, form, foundation 17 A It was limited Now and then over the years there 17 MR KRAUSE Objection, foundation 18 would be claims against Ford Motor Company for a 18 A Others in my department knew about the hazards of 19 defective product The bulk of those had to do 19 asbestos Maybe they were not aware of mesothelioma 20 with concerns about a leaking exhaust system that 20 The issue - my - 1am reasonably certain that the 21 resulted in carbon monoxide poisoning and deaths in 21 - degree of knowledge regarding asbestos m my department 22 some cases 23 My and my people's involvement would be to 24 study those vehicles usually in the state or the 22 when 1started as a junior industrial hygienist was 23 simply asbestosis, nothing more, nothing less 24 Q (B Y M R JO N E S) How do you know that others m your 25 location where these occurred by taking air samples, 25 department were aware of asbestos hazards when you HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROGER L. WABEKE 15 (Pages 54 to 57) 54 56 1 started9 1 time The third time is always a charm 2 MR BERG Objection, form 2 Dr Sehkoffs work that got a lot of 3 A Because one of our -- one of my colleagues was doing 3 attention as it relates to asbestos was Ins 1964 4 asbestos studies in a Ford facility 4 conference on asbestos where he discussed the insulator 5 Q (BY MR JONES) Who was that9 6 A Henry Lick 5 study you described, true9 . 6 A Yes 7 Q Was Mr Lick your supervisor at any time9 8 A No, he was --we were both industrial hygienists 7 Q And the Ford Motor Company was aware of Dr Selikoff 8 true9 9 0 Did you end up being his supervisor9 10 A Yes, I did, and then 1rehired him after he left the 9 MR BERG Objection to form 10 A Ford Motor Company had almost half a million 11 department Yes, 1was 11 employees Did every worker and employee, of course 12 Q So when you started, an industrial hygienist named 12 13 Henry Lick was doing asbestos studies0 13 not My department was aware of it The corporate medical department was aware of it Beyond that, I 14 A Yes 14 can't speak to anybody else 15 Q What was he doing0 15 Q (BY MR JONES) Fair enough You've personally met 16 A We had a facility at Sheldon Road Plant in a suburb of 16 with Dr Selikoff, is that true9 17 Michigan in Plymouth, Michigan that handled very large' 17 A No, I've never met the man I've read his papers 18 quantities o f asbestos, and his concern was the 18 I've never met him 19 occupational exposures of workers to asbestos fibers in 19. 0 Have you ever met with other members of Mt Sinai9 20 that facility 20 A No 21 Q You mentioned a Dr Selikoff Who is Dr Irving 22 Sehkoff or who was he9 21 Q He was at Mt Sinai, is that true9 22 A And also at State University of New York 23 A The late Dr Selikoff was a pioneer in the study of 23 Q Are you familiar with a gentleman by the name of 24 asbestos exposures I believed he worked with groups 24 John M Dement9 We are going way back here I 25 of insulation workers, trades persons, and as a 25 understand 55 57 1 physician and an epidemiologist he looked at a variety 1 A 1know the man I believe he's an industrial 2 o f issues over a fairly large cohort o f exposed 2 hygienist I don't know that I've met him I think 3 insulation workers and controls, and I believe he made 3 I've seen some papers or a book of his 4 the link between tobacco smoking and chrysotile 4 , Q I'm going to show you what we will mark as Exhibit 2 to 5 asbestos exposure and also mesothelioma as a risk 5 the deposition 6 factor 6 (Deposition Exhibit Number 2 7 Q When you say between chrysotile asbestos and 7 8 tobacco smoking, you mean in the causation o f lung 8 was marked for identification) MR KRAUSE Do you have another copy of it so 9 cancer9 9 1can take a look at it9 10 A Yes 10 MR JONES I don't, and this time this one is 11 Q. Not in the causation of mesothelioma9 11 12 A No There is no link, to my knowledge, that tobacco 12 highlighted MR BERG Here, Bob, why don't you take a . 13 smoking is synergistic or an additive risk for 13 look at that before 14 mesothelioma. 14 A Well, I've read the cover page 15 Q It doesn't cause or contribute to mesothelioma, 16 right9 , 15 Q (BY MR JONES) Go ahead and flip through it, and then 16. I'll ask you a question about it 17 MR. BERG' Objection Come on now He's not 17 MR BERG Are you going to ask him questions 18 here to testify as an expert witness ' 18 about the attached minutes9 19 MR JONES' I'm just clearing it up 19 MR JONES Yes 20 MR BERG Clearing what up? 20 A This will take a moment or two maybe - 21 MR. JONES. You made your objection 21 MR JONES We will change the tape while you 22 Q (BY MR. JONES) Is that true? 23 A True 22 read that We will go off the record 23 VIDEO TECHNICIAN Okay Off the record at 24 Q The Ford Motor Company --well, strike that. 25 Mr. Sell or Mr. --we will try it one more 24 2 35 Off the record 25 (Off the record) HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROGER L . WABEKE 16 (Pages 58 to 61) 60 58 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 i 23 24 25 V ID E O T E C H N IC IA N W e are now back on the 1 Q Thank you for the clarification And does this exhibit record The time is 2 44 p m 2 refresh your recollection that you heard Dr Selikoff Q ( B Y M R JO N E S ) Have you had a chance to read over 3 speak in person9 4 ' A Yes \ 5 Q And, ill fact, Dr Selikoff spoke about potential A Yes 6 . hazards to asbestos from brakes and clutches, true9 Q Exhibit 2 is a letter dated May 13, 1976, is that true9 7 MR BERG Objection, form, foundation A It is Q And it's on the letterhead of the Department of Health, Education and Welfare, Public Health Service, Center 8 1A 9. Q He did (BY MR JONES) Okay Is this information that others 10 in Ford's Industrial Hygiene Department would have been for Disease Control, true7 11 aware of9 A True 12 MR KRAUSE Objection, foundation Q It's a letter from a John M Dement, assistant chief, 13 A Yes Industrial Hygiene Section, true9 14 Q (BY MR JONES) How do you know others would have beei A Yes Q And it's sent to Roger Wabeke, Ford Motor Company, 15 aware of it9 16 A Well, because when I received memos that I thought true9 17 would be helpful to my staff, I circulated them, and LL A Right ` 18 was Mr Libardo LaToire The capital what looks like a Q And is that you9 19 R was Dr Sheldon Rabinowitz who reported to me CP is A Yes 20 Chuck Plasteis KL is Keith Lee I can't decipher the Q. It mentions that --Mr Dement mentions he s 21 other two, but it would have been Sliarkie Magella, and attaching the minutes of a March Id, 1976 meeting on "Occupational Exposure to Asbestos Dust During Brakee 2222 Michael O'Brien, that appears to be lus scribble, but 1 2 3 would generally circulate it to the field staff with and Clutch Servicing", true9 24 the exception of Libardo who was a chemist in the A Yes 25 laboratory 0 And those minutes appear to be attached to this ....... ` ~ 61 "' ~ 59 1 exhibit, is that true9 2 A Yes 3 Q Do you have any reason to dispute that you received 4 this letter9 5 A No 6 Q While you were employed at Ford9 7 A I initialed it 1 Q So you thought this was important9 2 A O f course 3 Q In this --m the minutes of the meeting it describes 4 Dr. Selikoff s statements about the hazards ot asbestos 5 associated with brake and clutch work, true9 6 MR BERG Objection, form, foundation 7 Q (BY MR JONES) The second paragraph reads " Dr Selikoff briefly summarized environmental 8 Q Your initials are on this letter9 9 9 A They are 10 Q Where are they9 10 11 A Directly under the date Do you see RW9 11 12 Q Okay So those initials indicate that you received 12 13 this letter and the minutes9 13 14 14 A Yes 15 Q Now, the minutes seem to show that you were there, and 1156 16 Dr Selikoff was there9 17 17 A Yes 18 1189 QA DI dooyroeucarlelciatll tIhhaatdora mseanyibore myooumfeonrtgoeat?rlier 1said 19 20 I never met the man 1 didn't personally speak with 20 21 him, but he was the speaker that day 21 22 Q saOnkdawyichI ,gbeuttithyeo'suspguokysennewviethr saabt udnocwhnoafnpdehoapdlea, and 2223 23 24 24 you were there9 25 25 E x a c t l y _______________________ and medical studies conducted with Local 259 of the United States - United Auto Workers and the New York Automobile Dealers Association These studies demonstrated peak asbestos fiber exposures of 0 5 to 35 fibers per cubic centimeter as determined by the standard OSHA phase contrast counting method Using electron microscopic techniques, it was shown that 80 to 99 percent of the fibers were shorter than the live micron in length Medical examinations of 93 brake repair workers with 10 to 40 years of exposure demonstrated a substantial number with x-ray and pulmonary function abnormalities" Did I read that correctly9 A You did Q And is that in fact what Dr Selikoff said at the meeting you attended9 A Yes That isn't necessarily I had questions about his HG LITIGATION`SERVICES h g l i t i g a t i o n .c o m ROGER L. WABEKE 17 (Pages 62 to 65) 62 64 findings, but that's what he stated 1 meeting in fact 2 And you circulated that information to other industrial 2 Q And I'll move to strike the nonresponsive portions 3 hygienists at Ford, true7 3 Thank you for that 4 1 did 4 And if you look at the last page, it lists 5 And if you'll go to the next page, at the top it '5 you as an attendee, Roger Wabeke, for the Ford Motor 6 says "Dr George Wright, industrial medical consultant, 6 Company; is that true7 7 pointed out that many garage mechanics performed , 7 A It is 8 grinding operations in addition to cleaning of the 8 Q And again you don't dispute that you were at the 9 brake wear dusts" Did I read that correctly7 9 meeting7 10 You did 10 A 1was at the meeting. 11 And were you aware of that, that mechanics would grind 11 Q. Thank you, Mr Wabeke You mentioned before that you 12 brakes9 12 were also aware of Dr Selikoffs work, true7 13 MR BERG Objection, form, foundation 13 A. In a general sense, yes 14 Yes 14 Q And I think you mentioned that you read some studies 15 (BY MR JONES) And were other industrial hygienist: 15 about asbestos from Mt Sinai and Dr Selikoff, is that 16 at Ford aware that mechanics would grind brakes7 16 true7 17 I can't speak to all of them, but some certainly did, 1178 A I didMR BERG You've got to take a breath between 1189 yeTshatWweadsidscisucsussesdedit amongst you and other industrial 19 his question and your answer so 1have an opportunity 20 hygienists7 20 to object as well as the other lawyers in the room 21 A I'll do that Thank you Is that an objection7 21 Correct MR BERG No You've ahead) answered the 22 Would you agree with me a concern at that time was that 22 23 the actual garage mechanics working with brakes weren't 23 question, so we will move on to the next one 24 aware of the potential asbestos hazards7 24 Q (BY MR JONES) The Ford Motor Company manufacture 1 25 MR KRAUSE Objection, foundation 25 cars that had asbestos brakes and clutches in them, is 63 " ' 65 1 Q (BY MR JONES) That is at this time in 1976? 1 2 MR BERG Objection, form, foundation. 2 A True 3 A Mr Jones, I don't have a crystal ball I can't get 3 Q There were also some instances where Ford Motor Compan; 4 into the minds of mechanics of what they did or did not 4 employees had to service brakes and clutches, is that 5 know. Perhaps some did ,5 true7 6 Q (BY MR JONES) Okay 6 A On a limited basis, yes 7 A You're asking me to speak to an universe of mechanics 7 MR BERG On cars, is that what you're 8 around our country, in fact, the world I can t 8 saying7 9 address that 9 Q (BY MR JONES) Yes, cars, trucks, things like that 10 Q Can you please flip to the next page7 The fifth 10 A The major - no, not the major source of service in my 11 paragraph it says "John Marsh indicated that informing 11 view 12 garage mechanics of the hazards associated with 12 Q Pardon9 13 exposures to wear dust and associated work practice to , 13 A No No Ford mechanics was not - the major source of 14 minimize these exposures is an enormous problem " Did 14 servicing brakes was not on cars and trucks It was on 15 1read that correctly7 15 vehicles that are used to transport, hi-los, tug . 16 A You did 16 tractors within our plants 17 Q And that's information that you circulated to other 17 0 Ford also had a fleet of their own vehicles that would 18 Ford industrial hygienists, true7 18 be serviced by Ford mechanics, true7 19 MR BERG Obiection, asked and answered, 19. A Not in all cases, sometimes by outside firms 20 form 20 Q And Ford also had we know the Arizona Proving Grounds 21 A Yes, but 1would like to make it clear, just because 1 21 where they would do work on brakes and clutches7 22 circulated it, doesn't mean that 1and my people 22 A They did 23 endorsed all of this 23 Q So asbestos hazards from brakes and clutches to Ford 24 Q (BY MR JONES) Fair enough 24 employees was one of your responsibilities, is that 25 A This raised many questions that were raised at the 25 true7 _____________ _ HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROGER L. WABEKE 18 (Pages 66 to 69) 66 68 1 MR KRAUSE Objection, foundation 1 give it back 2 A It was 2 MR JO N E S It's a short one May I7 3 MR JONES 1gave him all of my stuff to 3 MR BERG: Yes 4 copy, and now 1don't have the next m line So give 4 Q (BY MR JONES)' Exhibit 3 is a letter on Ford Moto 5 me one moment 5 Company letterhead; is that true7 6 MR BERG I don't know where he is , 6 A. It is. 7 MR JO N ES Let's go off the record 7 Q Do you recognize that letterhead from your time at 8 VIDEO TECHNICIAN We are off the record at 8 Ford7 . 9 2 54 p m 9 A The letterhead, yes. 10 (Off the record) 10 Q It's a letter dated June 2, 1975 11 VIDEO TECHNICIAN We are back on the record 11 A No, sir The letterhead, 1thought you meant the Ford 12 The time is 3 01 p m !2 logo 13 Q (BY MR JONES) Mr Wabeke - 13 0 Yes 14 MR BERG Hold on a second Didn't Counsel 14 A Yes, it's the Ford logo I've never seen this report 15 want to interpose an objection9 15 Q That's all I meant. I didn't ask if you recognized the 16 MR JONES Oh, yeah I'm sorry 16 letter, just the letterhead 17 MR LEWI Objection to the last question, 17 A. Right. 18 argumentative, assumes facts Thanks 1 18 0 We are on the same page It's a letter dated June 2, 19 Q (BY MR JONES) Mr Wabeke, m fact, you or industria. 19 1975, is that true? 20 hygienists you supervised at Ford monitored potential 20 A It is. 21 asbestos exposure where brakes and clutches were 21 Q. And it's from Duane L. Block, M D 7 22 serviced, is that true7 22 A Yes 23 MR KRAUSE Objection, foundation 23 0 Do you know who Mr. Block is7 24 A Your question, Mr Jones, implies we did all employees 24 A Very well, yes 25 at all times We did not 25 Q Dr. Block? 67 69 i Q (BY MR JONES) But at sometimes7 1 A He's deceased now 2 A At sometimes we did, yes ? Q Who was Dr Block9 3 Q At sometimes Ford industrial hygienists would monitor 3 A He was the medical director of Ford Motor Company on m3 4 potential asbestos exposures during brake and clutch 4 watch 5 servicing, true7 5 Q Have you seen his signature before7 . 6 A Yes 6 A Yes This is his 7 Q And as the supervisor of the industrial hygiene 7 Q So this is Mr Block's signature7 8 section, you would review those reports when they came 8 A No question 9 in, is that true7 9. 0 And it's a letter to Paul Kotin, M D , Health, 10 A I did, yes 10 Safety and Environment Department at Johns-Manville 11 Q Were you aware of reports in 1975 that brake mechanics 11 Corporation, is that true7 12 were being diagnosed with malignant mesothelioma7 12 A Yes 13 MR BERG Objection, form, foundation 13 Q Do you know who that is9 - 14 MR KRAUSE Objection, foundation 14 A It speaks for itself 15 A No, I was not Within Ford Motor Company or in the 15 Q 1mean did you know him7 I'm sorry 16 world9 16 A 1don't know him, no I heard his name, but I never 17 Q (BY MR JONES) In general, not in the Ford Motor 17 met the man 18 Company 18 Q And 1don't have anything in here sa>mg different 19 MR BERG Same objections 19 You didn't see this letter while you weie at Ford, is 20 A I was not aware 20 that true7 21 Q (BY MR JONES) Let me show what we will mark as 21 A This is the first time 22 Exhibit 3 to the deposition 22 0 You've never seen it9 23 (Deposition Exhibit Number 3 24 was marked for identification) 23 A Never ' 24 Q The letter references an Irv Sehkoft That's probably 25 MR BERG I'll take a quick peak, and I'll 25 Dr Irving Sehkoft7 HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROGER L. WABEKE 20 (Pages 74 to 77) 74 76 1 employees might face, true9 2 A Yes 3 Q This article, one of the things it talks about is 1 Q And was it your understanding the entire time you were 2 at Ford that - let me withdraw that 3 I'm going to completely withdraw it and not 4 whether or not there is asbestos found m wear dust9 A Correct Q And the conclusion of this article is that an average 4 even come back to it b MR KRAUSE Good 6 Q. (BY MR JONES) I'm going to get you some pom poms s< 7 of three to six percent of the brake dust is asbestos, 7 you can cheer for me 8 chrysotile asbestos, is that true9 8 Can you please flip to Page 1209 One of the 9 A Yes 9 things that this article said was that the typical 10 Q Is that your recollection9 ] 0 method for analyzing and counting asbestos fibers ii MR BERG Your recollection of the report or 11 wouldn't detect most of the asbestos fibers found in 12 of what was actually in the dust`> 12 brake dust, true9 13 MR JONES That's the report 13 A That's a general - that's true based on polarizing 14 MR BERG That's the reason why I'm asking 14 light microscopy testing procedures 15 the question ` 15 ' Q What you knew is that you needed a transmission 16 MR JONES' What are you asking me9 16* electron microscope to see the very small asbestos 17 MR BERG I'm asking are you asking him about 17 fibers that would occur m brake dust, true9 18 his recollection of how much asbestos dust was in -- 18 A And/or scanning electron 19 asbestos was in dust or what this report states9 Your 19 Q Go ahead I'm sorry 20 question is ambiguous 20 A And/or scanning electron TEM would be the standard of 21 MR JONES I was talking about the report 21 care, but sometimes you need all three 22 MR. BERG Okay. So can you point to where 22 Q And in this article the paragraph that starts at the 23 you're reading, Counsel9 , 23 bottom, it says that "The OSHA asbestos standard does 24 MR JONES Page 113 24 not require that short fibers less than 50 microns in 25 o (BY MR JONES) Under methods analysis of brake drum 25 length be counted or controlled This oversight may 75 ' 77 i dust, it says they looked at ten samples of brake drum 1 ' have considerable biological significance in that small 2 dust, true9 2 chrysotile fibers readily produce asbestos disease " 3 A. Yes. 3 Did 1read that correctly9 4 Q. And if you go to the third paragraph of that section. 4 A You did 5 it says "Chrysotile reflections were observed in all 5 Q And that's information that you had when you worked for 6 ten samples. Quantitative determination o f chrysotile 6 the Ford Motor Company, true9 7 content was made by comparison o f unknowns with 7 A I did, yes 8 calibrations o f chrysotile dilution standards The 8 Q This particular study was performed at franchise auto 9 weight occurrence ranged from 2 to 15 percent with an 9 dealer garages, taxi fleet repair shops and a municipal ' 10 average ranging from 3 to 6 percent." Did 1read that . 10 ' truck repair shop in New York City, and thats listed 11 correctly9 11 on 116 Is that your recollection9 116 Go ahead 12 A You did 12 I'm sorry Under the heading personal air sampling 13 Q And was it your understanding when you were an 13' during brake repair work9 14 industrial hygienist at the Ford Motor Company that 14 A Yes Yes 15 brake dust in fact included chrysotile asbestos? 15 Q This study also concluded that bystanders, meaning 16 A 1was, yes 16 people not performing work on brakes, were also at risk 17 Q And is it still your belief? 17 of developing asbestos disease, true9 18 A At that time, yes, not in present brakes, no, but at 18 MR BERG Objection to form 19 that time, yes 19 MR KRAUSE Objection to form 20 Q. Brakes that had asbestos9 20 A That's a leap I can't agree to that I'd have to 21 A. Correct 21 study the article again We can hypothetically make 22 Q. A n d the entire time you were an industrial hygienist at 22 that sort of statement, but I'm going to stick to the 23 Ford, was it your belief that brake dust included 23 facts 24 asbestos9 , 24 Q (BY M R JO N E S) Can you go to Page 126 please under 25 A Among other toxicants, yes 25 Number 69 HG LITIGATION HGLITIGATION.COM ROGER L. WABEKE 21 (Pages 78 to 81) 80 1 A Read 1 respiratory protection There was little awareness of 2 Q This discusses hazards from asbestos from grinding 2 the potential hazard of brake dust" Did 1read that . 3 truck brake shoes, true? 3 correctly9 4 A Yes 5 Q And your sampling confirmed that the grinding of 6 asbestos brake shoes can cause high exposures to 7 asbestos? 4 A You did , 5 * Q And that's information that you had while you were an & industrial hygienist at Ford0 . 7 A Yes, based on this It speaks to this study It 8 MR BERG Objection, form, foundation 8 doesn't speak to the universe of shops 9 Q. (BY MR. JONES) And I mean the samples you did at 9 Q 1move to strike the nonresponsive portions 10 Ford 10 MS B O W L B Y Mr Wabeke, would you mind 11 MR KRAUSE Same objection 11 keeping your voice up for us on the phone please0 12 MR BERG' Same objection 13 A In some cases, yes, not in all 12 A I'll try Thank you 13 MR JONES He'd try harder if you called him 14 0 (BY MR. JONES)- The last sentence under Number 6 14 Mr Wabeke 15 reads "The background measurements during both 13 MS BOWLBY Thank you, Mr Wabeke 16 automobile and truck brake work Indicate that many 16 Q (BY MR JONES) We will show you what we will mark a: 17 employees in garages other than brake lining workers 17 Exhibit 5 to the deposition 18 are potentially exposed to asbestos including other j 8 (Deposition Exhibit Number 5 19 mechanics and shop management" Did 1read that 19 was marked for identification) 20 correctly? 20 Q (BY MR JONES) Are you ready9 21 A. You did 21 A 1haven't read all of it 22 Q And that's information that you had while you were 22 Q Are you familiar with what I've marked as Exhibit 5 23 working at Ford9 ' 23 A 1don't recall seeing this report 24 A Well, it's a sloppy sentence The operative word is , 24 Q Okay 25 potentially. Potentially can be all sorts of things. 25 A Mt Sinai Journal of Medicine, it's not something that 79 . 81 1 I would agree potentially, yes, but to imply that's 1 would normally pass my desk, and for that reason 1 2 what's happening where the word potential is used is 2 ` think I'd recall this 3 disingenuous 4 Q And I'll respectfully move to strike the nonresponsive 5 portions Thank you 6 This article while you received at Ford also 3* Q Okay 4 MR BERG So we will move on to the next 5 exhibit 6 Q (BY MR JONES) Give me a second, Cowboy Yeah, wt 7 concluded that m general garage mechanics were not ) can move on Actually I just want to bring your 8 aware of the hazards of asbestos from brake and clutch 8 attention to one other thing This article -- let me 9 servicing,true9 10 MR BERG Objection, form 9 identify it This article is entitled "Asbestos 10 Exposure of Brake Repair Workers in the United States", 11 MR KRAUSE Foundation 11 true9 12 A I can't speak to the universe of garage mechanics 1 12 A Yes 13 have encountered some who did who were well aware and 13 Q By Lorimer, Rohl, Miller, Nicholson and Selikoff, 14 many who were not so 14 true9 15 Q (BY MR JONES) Certainly then based on your 15 A Yes 16 experience in the 1970's it wasn't universally known , 16 Q And Dr Selikoff was a person at that meeting you 17 from people you spoke with that asbestos in brakes and 17 attended where they talked about brake and clutch 18 clutches hurt people9 1 8 hazards0 19 MR BERG Objection, form and foundation He 19 A Yes 20 testified already his responsibilities-were within the 20 0 And it's in the Mt Sinai Journal of Medicine, and it's 21 Ford Motor Company 21 dated May, June, 1976, is that true9 22 Q (BY MR JONES) I'll withdraw the question Let's go 22 A Yes 23 to Page 118 please, the first full paragraph "It was 23 Q And this study is also funded m part by the Ford Motor 24 generally found that there was minimal, if any, effort 24 C om p an y, true0 25 to control dust in most garages Workmen do not use 2 5 MR KRAUSE Objection HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROGER L. WABEKE 22 (Pages 82 to 85) 82 , 84 1 Q (BY MR JONES) Go to the bottom of the front page 1 A I don't recall seeing it there 2 MR BERG Are you asking him whether he knows 2 0 This exhibit attaches what appears to be a letter to 3 that or whether that's what this document says, 3 the editor, is that true9 4 Counsel9 4 A Yes 5 Q (BY MR JONES) Is that what the document says9 6 A It is, yes 5 Q And the title of the particular letter I'd like to ask 6 you about is Mesothelioma m a Brake Repair Worker Dc 7 Q And do you have any reason to dispute that9 8 A No 9 Q You didn't see this article while you were at Ford9 10 A No 7 you see that9 8 A I do 9 Q Okay And it's authored by, if you flip to the last , 10 page, A M Langer and W T E McCaughey Did I read 11 Q Okay Do you think others did9 12 MR BERG Objection, form 11 that correctly9 12 A Yes 13 MR KRAUSE Objection, form, foundation 13 Q Did 1pronounce that correctly, McCaughey9 14 A I don't have a crystal ball -- I'm sorry - or a time 14 A McCaughey 15 machine I'm sorry 15 Q McCaughey9 16 Q (BY MR JONES) They funded it They probably read 16 A McCaughey I would say 17 it, right9 17 ` 0 And according to this publication they're at the 18 A Yeah 18 Environmental Sciences Laboratory', Mt Sinai School of 19 MR BERG Objection 19 Medicine, true9 20 MR KRAUSE Obiection 20 A True 21 A But that's - 21 Q And we recognize Dr Langer from the first study we 22 Q (BY MR JONES) Can you look at the next - look at 22 talked about that you had read while you were at the 23 Page 217 It's the next to the last page under 23 Ford Motor Company, is that true9 24 acknowledgments The second paragraph lists some 24 A Yes 25 names Are you familiar with any of those people9 25 Q Did you ever see this particular journal while you were 83 85 1 A No Wait a minute 1just read the first sentence 1 at the Ford Motor Company9 ? No 2 A No 3 Q (BY MR JONES)' Okay I'm going to show you what I'll 3 MR BERG Asked and answered 4 mark as Exhibit 6 to the deposition 4 Q (BY MR JONES) 1mean this actual letter to the b (Deposition Exhibit Number 6 5 editor That's what I mean 6 was marked for identification) 7 MR BERG Thank you 6 A No, sir 7 0 Did anyone at Ford communicate to you that there was 8 MR KRAUSE Thanks 8 another report of a mesothelioma in a brake worker9 9 MR JONES You're welcome 9 A No 10 Q (BY MR JONES) Exhibit 6 is the cover page for the 11 journal, the Lancet, dated Saturday, 13 November 1982, 12 is that correct9 10 MR BERG Objection, form 11 Q (BY MR JONES) This is something that Ford's Medica 12 and Industrial Hygiene Department would be interested 13 A Correct 14 Q And are you familiar with the Lancet9 15 A Generally, British, yes I believe it's British 13 in though, true9 14 MR BERG Objection, form, foundation 15 . A Well, it's part of our duties and responsibilities, 16 Q It says Boston, Mass and London on the front I don't 1 / know Maybe they split time, but you're familiar with 13 this journal9 16 yes, 1would say that 17 Q (BY MR JONES) And did professionals at Ford try to 18 locate articles like this, health hazards associated 19 A I am 20 Q Is this ajournal you've read before, not every one of 21 them, but you've seen9 22 A In my career maybe half a dozen papers 23 Q And have you seen the Lancet, for example, as one of 19 with products that Ford worked with or sold9 20 MR KRAUSE Objection to foundation 21 MR BERG Form 22 A 1can speak for my department 1don't believe there 23 is any systematic way of going about doing this Our 24 the journals that m ig h t be on the desk o f the docto rs 25 at Ford9 24 hands were full with so m any things In an ideal world 25 we would have every journal and study every' one, but we HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROGER L. WABEKE 23 (Pages 86 to 89) 86 , 1 didn't We had tons of documents floating through our 1 A In some cases, yes 2 offices, and we did our best 2 Q And I believe you testified previously that during your 3 Q (BY MR JONES) Okay Thank you We talked a little 3 time at Ford you either personally performed or 4 bit before, but I'd like to discuss in a little more 4 reviewed the studies of thousands of tests for asbestos 5 detail some of the testing you did at Ford and air 6 sampling and that kind of thing9 7 A Okay 8 Q Ford had a lot of different manufacturing facilities 9 when you started at that company in 1972, is that true1 10 A Many 11 O They had foundries1 12 A Yes 13 Q Coke ovens1 14 A Yes 15 0 Blast furnaces1 16 A Yes 17 Q Glass plant9 18 A Yes 19 Q A stamping plant1 20 A Well, several of each, several glass, several stamping 21 but yes 22 Q Let me know if there is more Hot strip mill1 23 A Yes 24 Q Cold strip mill1 25 A Yes 5 6 _ 7 8 . 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 content'' . MR BERG Objection, form, foundation MR KRAUSE Objection, form, foundation A I'm not sure about thousands Certainly in the hundreds but not thousandths Q (BY MR JONES) You've tested steam pipe insulation1 A Yes Q At the Ford Motor Company1 A Yes Now when you say studied, do you mean air sampling1 Q I'm sorry 1mean bulk samples A Well, in many cases experienced industrial hygienists doesn't have to take a sample Based on experience, they can recognize by observation pretty much the type of asbestos unless it's a mixture of anthrabowls (sic) and serpentine, but if we see something in disrepair, we don't necessarily sample and test it We intervene and say do something about it as indicated Q You were deposed in an asbestos case in 1988 Does that sound familiar in Oakland1 A In Oakland, California, correct 87 "" 89 i Q Continuous caster plant1 1 Q And you were an expert called on behalf ol defendant in 2 A Yes 2 that case1 3 Q Electric remelt plant1 3 . A 1was 4 A. Several 4 Q And 1read that deposition, and in that deposition - 1 5 Q. Scarfing mill1 5 can show it to you --you said you either were 6 A Yes 6- personally involved or reviewed thousands of asbestos 7 Q. Skull cracker1 7 tests Is that not your recollection1 8 A. Yes 8 A. Tests and studies are two different things I 9 Q And then power plants that had boilers and turbines1 9 personally along with another colleague spent the 10 A . O f course 10 better part of over three months, at least two to three 11 Q Ford used many different asbestos products in its 11 days a week each, going through every facility in 12 manufacturing facilities, is that true? 12 Ford's Rouge Complex, a huge manufacturing complex, tc 13 MR. BER G. Objection, form. 13 identify sources of asbestos and to comment on their 14 MR. K R A U SE . Objection, foundation 14 degree of friability and their integrity 15 A A s a component of our products or within the 15 That doesn't mean we took air samples or bulk 16 facilities1 16 samples because my colleague and 1were reasonably 17 Q (BY MR. JO N ES) Within the facilities 17 experienced in what is or is not asbestos So those 18 A Well, many is a loose word I would say during my 18 were studies, but they didn't have to be quantified 19 watch all of the facilities you just mentioned would 19 It was a survey to find out where it is, how much is 20 have had asbestos insulation perhaps in ovens and other 2 0 there and what's the state of repair 21 sources 21 Q Fair enough You took steps to identify potential 22 Part o f your job as an industrial hygienist at Ford, 22 sources of asbestos exposure throughout Ford plants 23 and this wasn't all of your job, but part o f your job 23 throughout your career there, true1 24 was to do bulk samples to determine whether or not a 24 M R B ER G Objection, form, foundation 25 material contained asbestos, is that true''________________ 25 MR KRAUSE And relevance There is no HG LITIGATION'SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROGER L. WABEKE 24 (Pages 90 to 93) 90 ' 92 1 indication that your client ever stepped foot in a Ford i MR. K R AU SE' Relevance 2 plant You're just on a fishing expedition I think 2 A I should explain from the start, to survey every Ford 3 the record should indicate he nodded his head yes 3 facility just in the United States and Canada - - 1 4 MR JONES I didn't nod my head yes, and it's 4 should mention I had counterparts m Brazil, Argentina, 5 not a fishing expedition, and if you keep listening, 5 England, Spain and other countries, the Philippines, 6 maybe you'll think it's relevant Maybe you won't 6 Australia, New Zealand, we were focusingjust on the 7 May 1continue9 '7 United States 8 MR KRAUSE 1haven't instructed him not to 8 Q (BY MR JO N ES) Okay 9 answer yet 9 A And as a matter, just tactically and strategically and 10 MR JONES Do you represent him7 10 with manpower reserves that we had, it was agreed 11 MR KRAUSE I represent Ford Motor Company, 11 through my manager to identify certain typical plants 12 and you're questioning him about activities that took 12 and from those findings issue a report to all 13 place during his employment 13 facilities to be mindful of these certain things, and 14 MR JONES But you don't represent the 14 that's where this gentleman, Mr Plasters, and 1did 15 witness9 Do you represent the witness9 15 this robust survey ofjust the Rouge Complex 16 MR KRAUSE No 16 0 And the Rouge complex I think is more than 20 -- 17 MR JONES Okay 17 A About that 18 Q (BY MR JONES) You found that asbestos was used in 18 Q - plants? 19 many different locations throughout those facilities, 19 A Big, probably 40,000 employees when 1worked there. 20 true7 20 0 While you were there, it was the largest manufacturing 21 A True 21 facility in the world, is that true? 22 MR KRAUSE Objection, relevance, foundation 22 A. Close to it. It was at one time during World War II 23 Q (BY MR JONES) You found asbestos insulation in the 23' It may not be today 24 different ovens and furnaces and boilers, true9 24 o. When you did that survey, your job was to determine 25 A True 25 potential asbestos health hazards that Ford employees 91 93 1 MR KRAUSE Same objection 1 would encounter, true? 2 Q (BY MR JONES) You found asbestos pipe covering used 2 A. No, we didn't take it to that next step, to identify 3 throughout the facilities, true0 3 the presence o f asbestos, where it was located, its 4 MR KRAUSE Same objection 4 degree o f friability and the opportunity for exposure 5 A Throughout is a blanket statement that it's every 5 during regular production operations and during 6 where No In some facilities we found it In other 6 maintenance operations 7 facilities we found alternative insulation material 7 Q And the idea is that with that knowledge you could 8 such as fibrous glass 8 prevent exposures, true7 9 Q (BY MR JONES) So sometimes things other than 10 asbestos was found9 9 A That was our hope, yes 10 Q. During your time at Ford you performed ambient air 11 A Correct 11 studies to determine asbestos in the air7 12 Q But the majority of the time, if you were looking at 13 steam piping that was insulated before 1972, it was 12 A Well, not ambient That would be outside the plant in 13 my view 14 asbestos, true9 15 MR BERG Objection, form 14 Q I'm sorry. 15 A Personal breathing samples o f workers as they went 16 A In general, yes 16 about doing their work 17 Q (BY MR JONES) There was asbestos rope gasket 18 material used on furnaces and boilers and things like 17 Q So you took air samples in the breathing zone of a 18 worker who was doing some work with asbestos 19 that, true7 19 products7 20 A Yes 20 A Yes 21 MR KRAUSE Objection, relevance 22 0 (BY MR JONES) How many plants did Ford have m 23 1972 where you surveyed them and found asbestos 21 Q And did you do that many times while you were at 22 Ford7 23 A 1didn't personally. Members o f my staff did. 24 material7 2 j MR BERG Objection, form, foundation 24 Q And you reviewed those studies? 25 A 1did. HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROGER L. WABEKE 25 (Pages 94 to 97) 94 96 i Q We mentioned you've done bulk samples and reviewed bulk 1 2 samples at the plant9 2 samples in the period ot'time before you came to Ford1? MR KRAUSE Objection, foundation 3 A Correct 4 MR KRAUSE Counsel, I'm warning you, I'm 5 very close to shutting this down Ifyou want to talk 6 about the exposures your client had to friction 7 products, that's one thing, but this witness is not 8 here to explain everything he knows to you about the 3 A Ambient9 4 MR BERG Ambient air samples 5 Q (BY MR JONES) It says ambient I think they meant ,6 asbestos Here, I'll just show you the testimony 1 7 don't have another copy I'll show you the testimony 8 MR BERG Why don't you ask your questions 9 Rouge Complex or any other Ford plant 9 The testimony - ' 1 0 MR JONES- He already has 10 ' MR JONES All right Let me ask you if 11 MR KRAUSE- You're on a fishing expedition 11 you - I was going to give him the deposition I've 12 MR JONES He was deposed in 1988 He's 12 never had a lawyer stop me from handing over a 13 already said a lot more than this I'm not going 13' deposition 14 through all of it If I wanted to, 1wouldjust use 14 MR BERG There is always a first 15 that deposition 15 MR KRAUSE There is always a first time for 16 MR KRAUSE Then why don't you 16 everything 1 7 MR JONES Why don't you let me complete my 17 MR JONES That's right 18 examination 18 MR KRAUSE We do things differently here in 19 MR KRAUSE Because you're on a fishing 19 Michigan 2 0 expedition 20 MR JONES No It's the same It's not 21 MR JONES To find out there is asbestos in 21 different 2 2 Rouge, that's my fishing expedition9 22 (BY MR JONES) Do you recall if you testified to the 23 MR KRAUSE Yes 23 following "As manager of industrial hygienist for Ford 24 MR JONES They've produced thousands of 24 Motor Company, I had a compelling interest to study the 25 documents on that subject That's not news I'm going 25 history of the Ford plants While I didn't read every 95 97 ! to continue my examination, but that s not news 1 report on 70 plants throughout the United States and 9 MR KRAUSE I'm about to shut you down, so 2 Canada, 1made a point of trying to review several 3 you keep it up 3 files each week going back trying to get an idea of 4 MR JONES Okay You do what you have to do 4 what the exposures were like" 5 at your own peril 5 MR BERG Do you remember giving that 6 A If 1m ay- 6 testimony9 That's his question 7 MR KRAUSE 1understand that 7 Q (BY MR JONES) Would you like to read it9 8 MR JONES Okay 8 A This is 20 years old I take it for what it is, and 9 MR BERG There is no question pending 9 that's generally true but not in all cases 10 Q (BY MR JONES) When you became the industrial hygiene 10 And 1didn't mean to imply that My point is when you 11 manager at Ford - oh, I'm sorry - when you became the 11 were the supervisor of industrial hygiene, you did a 12 supervisor of the industrial hygiene section at Ford, 12 little historical work to learn generally about 13 you had a compelling interest to learn about exposure 13 asbestos exposures at Ford, true9 14 histories at Ford plants, true? 14 1had only seven or eight years experience when 1came 15 MR BERG Objection, form 15 to Ford If I had to learn something about a 16 A I'm not sure what you mean 16 manufacturing process other than the chemical industry, 17 MR KRAUSE Relevance 17 of course, I would do that 18 Q (BY MR JONES) You wanted to - you did some research 18 So you made it a point to be aware of the asbestos 19 to look at old tests from industrial hygienists about 19 hazards at Ford, true9 20 exposures at Ford plants, exposure to asbestos, is that 20 MR BERG Objection, form 21 true9 21 MR KRAUSE Objection 22 A No 22 No, 1didn't do that The purpose of my studies was to 23 MR KRAUSE Objection, relevance 23 understand the manufacturing processes at these 24 A To an extremely limited extent 24 facilities Knowing the manufacturing processes, I had 25 O (BY MR JONES) Did you review reports of ambient air 25 a very good field like training experience what_________ HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLIT IGATION.COM ROGER L. WABEKE 26 (Pages 98 to 101) 98 100 1 materials would be associated with those manufacturing , 1 2 activities 2 3 Q (BY MR JONES) Based on your work and the work of 3 do you guys mind if 1rip off the front page7 It looks like it shouldn't be attached to this, and 1don't have any questions about it, and I didn't intend for it to , 4 other industrial hygienists at Ford, the Ford 4 be part of the exhibit 5 Industrial Hygiene Department was able to determine 5 MR BERG You can mark it, whatever 1don't 6 work that creates the most significant asbestos 6 know what foundation has been laid 7 hazards, is that true7 7 MR JONES. I haven't done anything I'mjust 8 MR BERG Objection, form 9 MR KRAUSE Ob)ection, form, foundation, 10 relevance 8 talking about whatever we do 9 MR BERG It's your deposition 1mean ]0 do you want to withdraw the exhibit and have it 11 A We attempted to do that Hopefully we didn't overlook ] 1 12 12 13 MR BERG We are not going through all of 13 remarked9 MR JONES Yeah Rip otf that front page MR BERG Hold on We are going to have to 14 that, are we, Trey7 14 withdraw the exhibit 15 MR JONES We might We are It's going to 15 MR JONES I'm withdrawing the exhibit, and 16 be quick 16 17 Q (BY MR JONES) The Ford Industrial Hygiene Section 17 I'm going to remark it MR KRAUSE As Exhibit77 18 determined that and other safety professionals at Ford 13 MR JONES Yes 19 determined that work with asbestos brakes and clutches 19 (Deposition Exhibit Number 7 20 presented significant asbestos hazards, true7 20 was marked for identification) 21 MR BERG Objection, form 21 (Off the record) 22 MR KRAUSE Ob|ection, form, foundation 22 Q (BY MR JONES) Mr Wabeke, are you familiar with Jht 23 A You had some adjectives, significant, for example 23 . Ford Motor Company's Carcinogens Task Force7 24 That would be based on the study in our findings 25 Clearly asbestos is a hazard Whether it's a risk is 24 A No 25 Q Do you recall an effort in the late seventies, early 99 101 1 dependent on exposure My department determined 1 1980's to identify carcinogens in Ford Motor plants7 2 exposure, and that has many variables among that I'm 2 A No 3 not going to give a blanket statement that all asbestos 3 Q Do you recognize any of the names on this document7 4 exposures were significant That would be wrong 5 Q (BY MR JONES) And 1didn't mean to state that The 6 Ford Industrial Hygiene Section did determine 4 A Other than Dr Block, no, and Mr Sussman 5 MR BERG And the names on the document 6 you're specifically referring to is the fust page of / significant asbestos hazards could be present during 7 Exhibit 79 8 brake and clutch servicing, true7 o MR JONES Correct 9 MR BERG, Objection, form, foundation 9 MR BERG Thank you 10 A Could, the possibility and probability is loose 10 O (BY MR JONES) Do you recognize Dr Block7 11 Those are fuzzy words I'm not going to buy into 11 A Dr Block and Victor Sussman 12 those, sir 12 Q Who is Victor Sussman7 13 Q (BY MR JONES) Let me show you what I'll mark as 13 A At the time I believe he was the manager of the 14 Exhibit 7 to the deposition, and we will go off the 14 stationary source environmental -- stationary source 15 record to change the tape 15 and environmental control office 16 VIDEO TECHNICIAN We are going off the record 16 Said another way, his department's 17 at 3 45 p m 17 responsibility were with respect to community air 13 (Off the record) 18 pollution and water pollution 19 VIDEO TECHNICIAN We are back on the record 19 Q Do you know what the E&R and M&S subcommittees are 20 The time is 3 51 pm 20 A I don't have a clue I could guess, but I don't think 21 o (BY MR JONES) Mr Wabeke, I've shown you what I've 21 you'd want me to 22 marked as Exhibit 7 Have you seen this document 22 MR. BERG He doesn't want you to guess 23 before7 23- Q. (BY MR JONES) 1don't want you to guess And do you 24 A Not until today 24 know who J W Durstine is7 25 MR JONES Okay You know what, flip to - ' 25 A 1have no idea HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROGER L. WABEKE 27 (Pages 102 to 105) 102 104 q Okay Can you flip to the page, Page 5 that I directed MR BERG He was looking you to off the record It's the one that says Q (BY MR. JONES) I'll ask the question again We are asbestos A I have it 0 The third sentence says "Asbestos is found in a variety of automotive components, and thus many occupational exposures are possible " Did I read that correctly9 A You did MR BERG For the record, there are several done with that A We are done with 79 Q Yes So I'll withdraw the question and ask it again Mr Wabeke, would you agree with me that you and your industrial hygiene staff reviewed industrial hygiene records and study reports to identify representative employees and job classifications where Page 5's One is just labeled Page 5, and it looks 10 significant asbestos exposures were documented or could like you're on the page that's entitled draft, carcinogenic substance, asbestos MR JONES That's what we are on 11. be reasonably expected to occur9 12 A 1believe we did in the context of that two person 13 study of which I was one member for about a three montl A One paragraph o (BY MR JONES) Did I read that correctly9 A You did Q And do you disagree with that statement9 14 ' 15 Q 16 li period m the Rouge Complex And you determined that one of the job classifications where significant asbestos exposures were documented o could be reasonably expected to occur was among brake MR BERG Objection 18 Q (BY MR JONES) Let me ask it this way In 1980 when 19 mechanics, true9 MR BERG What type9 Objection, form you were at the Ford Motor Company, was this your understanding9 MR BERG Objection, form, foundation 20 A I'm lost I'm sorry Maybe it's late m the day 21 Reasonable, sure A possibility, yeah Sure, there 22 is probably a possibility, but if you have to go A No, I don't agree with that statement Virtually everything is possible Probability is the operative 2 3 through to consider all the variables and the 24 iprobabilities of the significant exposure, that's word , 25 something else " 103 ' 105 (BY MR JONES) Well, you don't agree that many - 1 Q (BY MR JONES) Let me show you what I've marked as occupational exposures are possible9 2 Exhibit 8 Yes, they're possible, but that doesn't translate into 3 (Deposition Exhibit Number 8 exposure 4 was marked for identification) 1agree, but thisjust says they're possible, and you 5 MR BERG Thank you agree with that'* 6 Q (BY MR JONES) Do you recognize what I've marked as 7 I agree with what's said 1don't disagree with these 7 Exhibit 89 8 words They're words on paper . 8 A It has come back, yes Thank you 9 MR BERG Hold on a second We have to go 9 Q What is Exhibit 89 10 off the record 10 ,_ A It is my report to my manager, Dr Viola, regarding 11 VIDEO TECHNICIAN We are going off the record 11 asbestos exposure dated January 3rd, 1983 12 at 3 56 p m 12 Q And in that report you identify representative 13 MR JONES Let's go back on the record ] 3 employees and job classifications where significant 14 VIDEO TECHNICIAN We are back on the record 1 14 asbestos exposures were documented or could be 15 at 3 59 p m 15 reasonably expected to occur9 16 (BY MR JONES) Mr Wabeke, at some point you and your 16 A Correct 17 staff reviewed industrial hygiene records and study 17 Q And that's all asbestos exposures, true9 18 reports to identify representative employees and job 18 MR BERG Objection, form 19 classifications where significant asbestos exposures 19 A I won't say it's all I'm sorry 20 were documented or could be reasonably expected to 20 Q (BY MR JONES) You certainly included people workinj, 21 occur0 21 with, around insulation, true9 2 2 MR BERG Objection, form 22 A Yes 13 Q) (BY MR JONES) It's not in that document I'm done 23 Qi And you listed brake mechanics as ajob classification 24 with that document Do you want me to repeat the 24 where significant asbestos exposure was documented or 28 question9 25 could reasonably be expected to occur, true9____________ HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROGER L. WABEKE 28 (Pages 106 to 109) 106 108 1 A This is not my list. It's a list of one o f my 1 A 1understand what you're saying 2 subordinates for which I put my cover letter 2 Q On the list of Ford employees orjob classifications 3 0 . Okay What you attached to this list --strike that 4 You wrote this memo, true9 3 where significant asbestos exposures were either " 4 documented or reasonably expected, the first thing 5 A. 1did 5 listed is a test engineer at the brake research lab, 6 Q. And you attached a list o fjob classifications, true9 7 A. Correct 6 true9 7 A I would like to go back to the cover letter please 8 0 The job classifications attached to your memo were 9 identified as those where significant asbestos 8 Yes Okay True 9 Q Okay And the second, third, fourth and fifth 10 exposures were documented or could be reasonably 10 employees listed as people with significant asbestos 11 expected to occur, true9 11 exposures that were documented or could be reasonably 12 A Yes 12 expected were brake mechanics, true9 13 0 . And attached to your memo was a list that included 13 14 brake mechanics under that category, true9 14 MR KRAUSE One is just listed as a mechanic 15 A Yes 15 A Uh-huh That's the proving grounds, right9 16 Q If you look at the - and it also lists particular 17 employees Do you see that on the first page9 16 Q (BY MR JONES) What's the answer9 17 A Well, I agree with Mr Krause Two are brake 18 A. Yes, in those cases where air samples were obtained in 18 mechanics One is a mechanic He might be working or 19 their breathing zone, correct 19 engines 20 Q So that means that air samples o f people working with 20 Q Three are brake mechanics9 21 brakes showed significant exposures to asbestos? ' 21 A So far three are, correct 22 A. It showed exposures This does not speak to 22 Q I'll ask a clean question because I don't think we are 23 significant It speaks to the potential 23 going to play Mr Krause's testimony unless we swear 24 Q Well, it's certainly listed as a classification where 24 25 the asbestos exposure is either documented or 25 him in He knows better than that O f the next four job classifications listed in 107 109 1 reasonably expected to occur, true? 1 the list o f people with significant asbestos exposures 2 A Correct. 2 documented or reasonably expected three of the four aro 3 Q. And you include -- you include test engineers at the 4 sci lab brake research9 3 brake mechanics, true? 4 A Yes 5 A We had a laboratory that researched brakes 5 Q And one is a mechanic, true9 6 Q. And you included the test engineer at that facility on 6 A. Correct. 7 the list9 7 Q. Can you please flip to - it's several pages 8 A Yes 8 MR. BERG- The Bates number at the top o f the 9 Q You also included it looks like three persons 10 identified as brake mechanics and then one as a 9 page, it will be help 10 O (BY MR. JONES). Oh, it says Page 4 of the list, and 11 mechanic, true9 11 it's got a Bates number of 596 12 A. Where do you see that? 12 A 1don't see the Bates, but I'm on the page, Page 4 13 Q Under the test engineers 14 A. At scientific brake research9 13 Q. Okay The list o fjob classifications where 14 significant asbestos exposures were documented or 15 Q. I'm going down to the next two plants I'm sorry 15 16 I'll withdraw it and ask it again. 16 could be reasonably expected also included gasket inspectors; is that true9 17 A I'm looking at the third one down as Arizona Proving 17 A Yes 18 Grounds 18 Q And is that from their work inspecting asbestos 19 Q No, we are looking at the same thing 20 A Yes 19 gaskets9 20 MR BERG Objection, form, foundation He 21 Q Okay. 22 A I don't see test engineers anywhere on here 21 didn't prepare the report. 22 MS BO W LBY. Also overly broad 23 Q Right under job class, the first thing 24 A Oh, to the right. 1see 23 A 1did - I know who prepared this report from my coye 24 letter by the handwriting. I don't see a signature 25 Q So I'll withdraw the question. 25 Q (BY MR JO NES) Whose handwriting is it9 HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROGER L. WABEKE 29 (Pages 110 to 113) 110 112 1 A Henry Lick 1 A Menthey 2 Q And you don't know what the gasket inspectors were 2 Q Menthey and the subject is asbestos substitutes, true9 3 doing9 ' 3 A Yes 4 A Well, 1have a pretty good idea if you want me to 4 Q You first urged Mr Menthey to substitute asbestos in 5 speculate I don't think I'm speculating They would 5 1976, true0 6 remove old gaskets from engines that had been in `6 MR BERG Objection, form, foundation 7 operation for a while because perhaps they leaked or A At his request for possible viable alternatives to 8 cracked or were brittle 8 asbestos 9 They removed the gaskets by a variety of 9 (Deposition Exhibit Number 10 10 tools They would do some sanding and grinding and 10 was marked for identification) 11 replace the gaskets This might be between the head 11 Q (BY MR JONES) I'll show you what I've marked as 12 and the block, well, whatever, on the transmission It 12 Exhibit 10 I've got one for you It appears that you 13 could be many areas 13 again urged people at the Ford division safety -- 14 Q And your letter includes that work, removing those 14 15 gaskets as a job classification where significant 15 strike that It appears that you continued to request or 16 asbestos exposure was either documented or could be 16 suggest substitutions for asbestos materials into the . 17 reasonably expected to occur, true1? 1 1980's, is that true9 18 MR BERG Objection, form 18 MR BERG Objection, form 19 A Correct . 19 A To the extent the engineers would find these products 20 Q (BY MR JONES) What was your answer9 21 A Correct 2 0- as viable as the existing product 21 Q (BY MR JONES) And the date on this memo appears to 22 Q Thank you In the 1980's you encouraged people in the 22 be May 16, 1983 or is that -- 23 Ford Motor Company to substitute asbestos out of 23 A It could be '73 24 products wherever they could, true0 24 Q It could be '73 25 MR BERG Objection, form 25 A I'm not sure 111 113 ] Q (BY MR JONES) And I'll show you --actually I'm 1 2 going to do this way You actually started doing that 2 MR BERG It could be'93 MR JONES I'll stipulate it's 2003 3 in the seventies, right0 You started -- in the 1970's 3 A I'm not going to guess It appears '73, but I'm not 4 you were recommending that the Ford Motor Company 4 sure 5 substitute asbestos0 5 MR BERG For the record, the date is 6 MR BERG Objection, form 6 illegible 7 A Yes, in collaboration with our research and engineering 6 center 7 Q (BY MR JONES) From the appearance of the -- if yor 8 compare this to the 1976, is there any way you can tell 9 (Deposition Exhibit Number 9 9 what decade it's from or not by the letterhead or the 10 was marked for identification) 10 appearance of the document9 11 Q (BY MR JONES) And I've shown you what I've marked as 11 A Do you want me to guess9 12 Exhibit 9 to the deposition0 12 Q You were there in the seventies, and then you were 13 A You have 13 there in the eighties Does the appearance of the - 14 Q Are you familiar with Exhibit 9 13 A I authored it 14 letterhead shed any light as to the decade the document 15 was generated9 16 Q It's on -- it's an interoffice memo on Ford letterhead, 1 7 is that true0 18 A Correct 16 ' A 17* Q 18 A Well, my title was -- Or who you're writing to I was a senior industrial hygienist That would have 19 0 It's dated May 16 -- 19 to be 1973 20 MR BERG Where is the Ford letterhead0 21 Q (BY MR JONES) I'm sorry I mixed it up It's not 22 on Ford letterhead It's dated May 17, 1976, is that 2 3 true9 24 A It is 20 Q Okay 21 A In 1983 I was the supervisor 22 Q There we go There we go So through the process of 23 deduction it appears m 1973 you were actively 24 encouraging people to switch from asbestos to other 2 b Q And it's memo from you to Mr R J Menthey0 25 materials where they could0 HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROGER L. WABEKE 30 (Pages 114 to 117) 114 116 1 MR BERG' Objection, form 1 Company may occur from - and the third and fourth 2 A Where they could 2 bulletin points are clutch and brake linings for 3 Q (BY MR. JONES)' Okay Thank you 4 (O ff the record) - 3 various machinery and transportation equipment, power 4 presses, conveyor belts, hi-los, locomotives, tow 5 (Deposition Exhibit Number 11 5 tractors, trucks, automobiles, and the next bulletin 6 was marked for identification) 6 high temperature gasket material for manifolds, pipes" _ 7 Q. (BY MR JONES)' I'll show you what I've marked as 7 ^ Did I read that correctly9 8 Exhibit 11. What is Exhibit 11? 8 A You did 9 A This is one of many bulletins produced by my 9 Q And that's what you wrote, true9 10 department This is -- it's the overall bulletin on 10. A Yes 11 asbestos to alert our friends about the health hazards 11 Q You also concluded that insulation removal or repair 12 o f asbestos and steps that can be taken to reduce 12 and brake and clutch servicing can be especially 13 exposure 13 hazardous, true9 14 Q And this document is dated August 22nd, 1983; is that 14 A True 15 true, top left? 15 Q And that's what you put m this document, true9 16 MR BERG There is two dates on there There 16 A True 17 is two dates on the document 17 Q Was this document sent to other people within Ford9 18 Q (BY MR JONES) I think that's a supersedes date 19 A. It is 18 A Yes 19 Q Who was it sent to9 20 0 You can explain to me, what's the date of this 21 document? 20 A It would have been distributed to Foid facilities 21 worldwide typically through what was called then the 22 A '83 22 industrial relations departments 23 Q Okay August 22nd9 24 A Yes. 23 Now we refer to it as human resources It 24 would be through the human resources managers, medica 25 Q And it supersedes a similar document? 25 departments, safety engineers 115 117 1 A Correct 1 Q. So this was distributed widely at Ford? 2 Q Dated July 18th, 19759 3 A Correct 2 A Yes 3 (Deposition Exhibit Number 12 4 Q Was this document generated by your staff9 5 A 1wrote it with input by my staff 4 was marked for identification) 5 0 (BY MR JONES)' Okay Let me show you what I've 6 Q So you authored Exhibit 119 7 A 1did 6 marked as Exhibit 12 to the deposition. What is 7* Exhibit 12? 8 Q And it's based on your training as an industrial 9 hygienist, true9 8 A This is the first companion document to the prior 9 exhibit, Exhibit 11, and it focuses on asbestos brake 10 A Yes 10 and clutch servicing. 11 Q It's also based on your experience as an industrial 11 0 Did you write this document9 12 hygienist, true9 12 A Idid. 13 A Yes 13 0 This document is also - was based on your experience 14 Q It's also based on your experience testing potential 14 as an industrial hygienist at the time? 15 sources of asbestos exposure9 15 A Yes 16 MR BERG Objection, form 16 Q It was also based on your knowledge of work practices 17 Q (BY MR JONES) True9 18 A Yes 17 during brake and clutch servicing9 18 A Yes 19 Q It's also based on your experience evaluating potential 19 Q It was also based on your study and testing of work 20 asbestos hazards at Ford Motor Company facilities, 20 practices involving brake and clutch servicing at 21 true9 21 Ford9 22 MR BERG Objection, form, foundation 22 A Yes 23 A Yes 23 Q It was also based on your review of reports of testing 24 Q (BY MR JONES) And can you flip to the second page9 24 o f brake and clutch servicing at Ford 25 You mentioned that asbestos exposures within Ford Motor 25 A Yes. HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROGER L. WABEKE 31 (Pages 118 to 121) 118 . 120 0 Okay The document is dated August 22nd, 19839 1 A Reports in the literature Plus the characteristics of 2 A It IS 2 the bags that were used on the grinding machines didn't 3 0 And it's titled "Asbestos Brake and Clutch Servicing, 4 Supplement to Bulletin Number 4", true9 3 have high efficiency particulate aerosol filters 4 Q You were familiar with those grinding machines9 5 A Correct 5 A Yes, not all, but many 6 Q So this is a supplement to the previous exhibit9 7 A It IS 6 Q And in your experience the dust bag collection method 7 did not adequately prevent asbestos exposures during 8 Q The top of it reads "The following procedures are 8 9 recommended to minimize asbestos dust exposures during 9 the grinding of asbestos brakes9 MR BERG Objection, form, foundation 10 brake and clutch servicing of trucks, tractors, 10 MS BOWLBY Overly broad 11 trailers, automobiles, locomotives, forklifts and tow 11 A It could reduce exposure but wasn't sufficiently 12 tugs", true9 12 quantitative for our purposes 13 A Yes 13 Q (BY MR JONES) You recommended that asbestos 14 Q You recommend placing a warning in the area where brake 14 containing debris be sealed in plastic bags and 15 and clutch servicing is occurring, true9 15 labeled,true9 16 A True 16 A True 17 Q In that warning you recommend that you include the word 17 Q That includes brake dust, true9 18 cancer, true9 18 A Yes 19 A Yes 19 Q You recommended that the asbestos debris and brake dust 20 Q The warning you recommend says asbestos, dust hazard, 20 21 avoid breathing dust, wear assigned protective 21 have the following label, caution, contains asbestos fibers, avoid breathing dust, breathing asbestos dust 22 equipment, do not remain in area unless work requires 22 may cause asbestosis and cancer, true9 23 it, breathing asbestos dust may cause asbestosis and 23 A Correct 24 cancer, true9 24- Q You recommended that the area where brake servicing am 25 A True 25 clutch servicing occurred be cleaned with a high 119 121 1 Q You recommended that people wear approved respirators, 1 efficiency particulate vacuum, true9 2 an air purifying respirator during brake servicing, 2 A True 3 true9 3 Q You also recommended that the people cleaning the area 4 A True 4 where brake and clutch servicing took place wear c Q You recommended that people use high efficiency filter 5 respirators, true9 6 vacuums to clean brake drums, true9 6 A True 7 A True 7 Q You also recommended that people performing brake 8 Q You recommend that because you recognized that using 8 9 compressed air creates an asbestos hazard when cleaning 9 servicing and clutching servicing follow OSHA regulations on asbestos concerning special clothing 10 a brake drum, true9 10 and change rooms, true9 11 MR BERG Objection, form, foundation 11 A True 12 MS BOWLBY Foundation 12 Q In fact, you recommended that people doing brake and 13 A It can depending on other variables 13 clutch servicing wear Dupont Tyvek disposable 14 Q (BY MR JONES) And the reason you recommend using 9 14 coveralls, true9 15 vacuum is to avoid hazards created by using compressed 15 A True 16 air to clean brake drums, true9 16 Q And is that the sort of white moon suit looking thing9 17 A Yes 17 A Yes 18 Q You recommend if grinding to brakes must occur, you 19 recommend local exhaust, true9 18 * Q And it was your recommendation that employees of Fort 19 who performed brake and clutch ser\ icing wear a 20 A True 20 respirator and the Tyvek moon suit while doing that 21 Q You also write that a dust bag on an arcing machine is 21 work, true9 22 not sufficient to prevent asbestos hazards during 22 A Yes 23 grinding, true9 23 Q And that's based on your experience including tests 24 A True 24 p e rfo rm e d at th e F o rd M o to r C o m p a n y , tru e`> 25 Q Was that based on your studies9 25 A True, HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROGER L. WABEKE 32 (Pages 122 to 125) 122 124 1 Q You would agree with me when you were at the Ford Motor 1 2 Company it was recognized by your department that 2 lower the dose, the lower the risk, of course, and dose is not just how much is inhaled but how long it's 3 asbestos was one of the few clearly recognized human 3 inhaled, the fiber dimensions, respirability of those 4 carcinogens7 4 fibers and all sorts of factors 5 MR BERG Objection, form, foundation 5 In general the lower the dose, the lower the 6 A Is that what it says9 May I see that please9 6 risk That goes without saying, but we have learned 7 Q (BY MR JONES) You may I'm going to show you what 7 8 I've marked as Exhibit 13 8 much since the date of this report MR BERG So if you start asking opinions, we 9 (Deposition Exhibit Number 13 9' are going to have a problem after this because this is 10 was marked for identification) 10 the end of his tenure 11 A Thank you Where in this document did you quote9 11 . Q (BY MR JONES) Your recommendation was to inform 12 Q (BY MR JONES) One, two, three, four, fifth paragraph 12 all who work in the area of the presence of asbestos. 13 down 13 ' true9 14 A That's what I stated 14- MR BERG Objection, form, foundation 15 Q Okay And let me ask this What is Exhibit 139 16 A It's my report to the plant physician for our Kentucky 15 A No Our guidance to the plant was that if--and I 16 should - I had a tiny department for a company with 17 Truck Plant 17 almost half a million employees We had a tram the 18 Q The document is on Ford letterhead, true9 19 A Yes 18 trainer approach 19 We trained people in our plants, primarily 20 Q It's dated November 10, 19839 21 A It is 20 safety engineers and sometimes nurses to identify the 21 presence of asbestos, but more importantly than that, 22 0 And your signature is found on the second page9 22 is it available for inhalation, is it friable, is it 23 A It is 23 unprotected 24 Q And in your report you state "It is the considered 24 25 opinion of Industrial Hygiene and the Associate Medical 25 There is a distinction between hazard and risk, and I think I alluded to this earlier If the 123 125 1 Director of Environmental Affairs, Employee Health integrity is good in the asbestos there, clearly it's a 2 Services, F V Viola, M D , that the threshold of 2 hazard, but it's not a risk 3 asbestos carcinogenesis, if any, is unknown, true9 3 Q Would you agree with me workers need to know the risk 4 A True 4 to avoid the hazard9 5 Q And what you meant was no one knows how much asbestos 5 A Yes, of course 6 it takes to cause cancer, true9 6 MR BERG Objection, form, foundation 7 MR BERG Objection, form, foundation 7 A Yes ' ft A Well, this is what we stated Since then we have 8 Q (BY MR JONES) And workers should be informed of thi 9 learned a lot more about that Most industrial 9 asbestos risk with asbestos products9 10 hygienists would agree it's not binary issue above 10 ' A 1maintain that, yes 11 which you're diseased and below which you're not It's 11* Q And workers should be informed of the risk of working 1? not that simple 12 with asbestos products so they can avoid that risk and 13 Q (BY MR JONES) Right You stated "Accordingly, it 13 14 cannot be said with any certainty that there is any 14 13 safe dose of inhaled asbestos fibers", true9 15 avoid the hazard9 MR BERG Objection MS BOWLBY Foundation, beyond the scope 16 A Correct 16 A Yes 17 Q And you would agree with me that any exposure to a 18 carcinogen should be avoided9 1 / Q (BY MR JONES) I'm done with that 18 MR BERG Flow much time do you have left on 19 MS BOWLBY Foundation, beyond scope, overly 19 20 broad 20 21 A No, 1won't agree with you on that, Mr Jones We are 21 your tape9 VIDEO TECHNICIAN 23 minutes MR JONES That might get us through this 22 inhaling asbestos fibers in this room as we sit here 23 I'm reasonably confident m saying that 22 A Good, five o'clock 23 Q (BY MR JONES) What time is it now9 24 We have to apply a reason or a degree of 25 practicality and reasonableness to all of this The 24 A. 4 28 25 Q Okay When you were at Ford, the Industrial Hygiene HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROGER L. WABEKE 33 (Pages 126 to 129) 126 128 1 Department was concerned that information about 1 should be told about the hazard o f asbestos from 2 asbestos hazards from brake and clutch maintenance 2 _ clutches and brakes9 3 needed to be sent to Ford dealerships, true9 3 A Our dealers are reasonably sophisticated 4 MR BERG Objection, form 4 , They're large corporations They have their own 5 A If you're reading from a report, I'd like to see it 5 responsibilities under the law to step up to what 6 (Deposition Exhibit Number 14 6 they have If they receive products that have 7 was marked for identification) '7 hazard warning labels on them, I think it's fair to 8 Q (BY MR JONES) Okay I'll show you what I've marked. 8 9 as Exhibit 14 to the deposition Do you recognize 9 state they would receive material data sheets from suppliers 10 Exhibit !49 10 Q I move to strike the portions that are based on 11 A Yes 11 speculation, lack o f foundation and that are 12 Q Exhibit 14 is an interoffice memorandum from H B Lick, 12 13 industrial hygiene associate to several people, and you 13 nonresponsive MR BERG. That's why 1objected to the form 14 were cc'd, is that true9 14 o f the question Mr Lick was not working for the 1b A True 15 witness at this time 16 Q So you received a copy of this document9 17 A I did 16 Q (BY MR. JONES). Okay You're telling me it's a bac 17 thing for the Ford Motor Company to send information 18 Q It's dated August 15, 1983, is that true9 19 A Yes 18 about the hazards o f asbestos in brakes and clutches to 19 the dealerships9 20 Q And it's on Ford Motor Company letterhead, true9 20 21 A True 21 MR BERG' Objection, form MR. KRAUSE Objection, argumentative 22 Q Mr Lick worked for you at this time9 23 A I'm not sure He was in the department when 1was 22 A O f course it is not a bad thing However, given the 23 constraints o f a tiny staff and what I had to do, we 24 employed by Ford Then he left, and 1think he was 24 had bigger fish to fry 25 gone during that interval He went to our transmission 25 If Mr Lick took it upon himself to share this . 127 129 1 and chassis division He didn't report to me 1 with whoever, Ford parts and service division, he 2 So I believe this memo was generated not under 2. didn't do it under my auspices because I'm cc'd on it 3 my direction but either on his own or through somebody 3 as a courtesy 4 else's, but he copied me and my manager and a few other 4 Q Well, good for him 1mean as many people as possible 5 people I - well, I'm not going to volunteer 5 should know about the hazards of asbestos from brakes 6 anything 6 and dutches, true9 7 Q And in Mr Lick's letter to other people including you, 7 8 he said "We would like to discuss the most efficient 8 MR KRAUSE Objection, form MS BOWLBY Objection, beyond the scope 9 method of disseminating health hazard information to 9 Q (BY MR JONES) What's your answer9 10 dealerships At this time we are specifically 10 A He was singing to the choir I don't know about 11 interested in asbestos exposure from brake and clutch 11 Mr Donnellan, but Roshnski, Viola and Wabeke, we knev 12 servicing, but we would like to develop a relationship 12 the hazards of asbestos He wasn't preaching to us 13 to assure that any information we should uncover from 13 He was trying to get the word out to the Ford Parts and 14 Ford manufacturing operations is passed on to the 14 Service Division 15 dealers" Did I read that correctly9 15 Q And you support that9 16 A You did 16 MR BERG Objection, form, foundation 17 Q And that means when your industrial hygiene staff finds 17 Q (BY MR JONES) Right9 18 hazards at your facilities, you want to communicate 18 MR KRAUSE Objection 19 those to the dealerships9 19 0 (BY MR JONES) I'll withdraw it You agree that as 20 MR BERG No Objection, form, foundation 20 many people as possible should know about the health 21 A If Mr Lick was reporting - I'm reasonably certain if 21 hazards of work with asbestos brakes and clutches, 22 he was reporting at this time, I would review this 22 true9 * 23 letter before it went out, and I don't agree with his 23 MR BERG Objection, form 24 recommendation 24 M R . K R A U S E O b je ctio n , form , foundation 25 Q (BY MR JONES) You don't agree that the dealerships 25 ' A That is such a broad statement that 1can't agree with HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROGER L. WABEKE 34 (Pages 130 to 133) 130 . 132 1 It 1 Q (BY MR JONES) Not yet 2 0 (BY MR JONES) You don't think people should know7 2 A Oh, I'm sorry 3 A O f course people should know However, they know 3 MR BERG This is 15 4 through the hazard and material data safety sheets 4 Q (BY MR JONES) Exhibit 15 is a letter or an 5 supplied by the suppliers to the dealerships 5 interoffice memorandum dated September 20, 1983 on Fori 6 It is their duty as a matter of law to step up 6 letterhead, is that true0 7 to the hazard communication standard and inform their 7 A Yes 8 employees ' 8 Q This is also from Mr Lick7 9 Q Okay You don't know if that happened or not You 10 weren't at any of the dealerships, right7 9 A It is > 10 0 And you're not cc'd It's to a Mr Keoleian, and it's 11 MR BERG Objection, form, foundation 11 cc'd to a Mr Donnellan and Roslinski, true7 12 Q (BY MR JONES) True7 13 MR BERG Same objections 12 A True 13 Q It appears Mr Lick in describing what should be in a 14 Q (BY MR JONES) You're just speculating now You 14 15 never personally sent a material safety data sheet to a 15 technical service bulletin is repeating the information found in your brake and clutch service or your brake _ 16 Ford dealership, did you7 16 and clutch supplement7 17 A That is not my duty That is the retailer's duty 17 MR BERG Objection to form 18 0 Did you know that -- 19 A Wholesaler's duty or retailer 20 Q Did you know asbestos - I've already called Ford 21 asbestos 18 A I'm sorry Without a side by side comparison, word for 19 word I can't --I see some similar language, yes 20 Q (BY MR JONES) Mr Lick apparently thought there wa: 21 a need to communicate to the dealers the hazards of 22 Did you know that Ford shipped asbestos brakes 22 asbestos clutches and brakes7 23 to be used as replacement parts to dealerships7 23 MR BERG Objection, foundation 24 MR BERG Asked and answered 24 MR KRAUSE Objection, foundation 25 MR KRAUSE Asked and answered 25 A Presumably He didn't share it with me or my 131 133 1 A I don't know 1 supervisor 2 Q (BY MR JONES) And did you know Ford didn't include 2 Q (BY MR JONES) Perhaps Mr Lick wasn't working fo 3 any warning about the hazards of asbestos on those 3 you at that time9 4 parts until 19807 4 A No, because it's personnel and organization staff, and 5 MR BERG Objection, asked and answered 5 1believe m 1983 he was working there and not in 6 MR KRAUSE Objection 6 employee health services n A 1didn't know that 7 Q This indicates he's in a different department from 6 Q (BY MR JONES) Did you know Ford never included a 9 warning concerning the hazards of asbestos with any 8 you9 9 A Yes 10 vehicle that included asbestos components7 10 Q Mr Lick recommends a warning in areas where brake 11 MR KRAUSE Objection, foundation, form 11 and clutch repairs are taking place that includes the 12 A You mean a label on the brake or on the door handle7 12 word cancer That's something you've recommended, . 13 Q (BY MR JONES) Anywhere There is no mention in the 13 true7 14 vehicle, on the vehicle, even in the owner's manual 14 A True 19 that the car includes asbestos and that asbestos could 15 ' Q Mr Lick recommends the use of respirator That's 16 be hazardous, did you know that7 16. something you recommended, true9 17 MR KRAUSE Objection, foundation 17 A As needed, yes 13 A No, 1didn't know that 19 Q (BY MR JONES) Let me show you what I'll mark as 20 Exhibit 15 to the deposition 21 (Deposition Exhibit Number 15 18 Q Mr Lick recommends the use of a respirator both during 19 brake servicing and during clutch removal and cleaning, 20 true7 21 A He does 1don't necessarily agree with that Justin 22 was marked for identification) 22 context respirator is the last choice ot protection for 23 MR BERG You have to slow down and let us 23 workers 24 get our objections in please 24 Q S o yo u should do other things first to reduce dust 25 A I'm sorry Is there a question pending7 25 exposure9 HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROGER L. WABEKE 35 (Pages 134 to 137) 134 136 1 A To the extent possible, yes 1 Q - the congressional office over here informed us about 2 Q He recommends the use of local exhaust and a respirator 2 superseding documents 3 when grinding brakes, true9 3 A Would the court report please - would you please 4 A He does 4 repeat the question please0 5 Q And that's something you've recommended9 6 A Yes 5 Q I'll ask it again Are you familiar with any EPA _ 6 ^ documents concerning preventing asbestos disease among 7 Q He recommends that asbestos debris including asbestos 7 8 brake dust include a warning about asbestos that 8 . auto mechanics from your time at Ford9 MR BERG Objection 9 includes the word cancer9 9 MR KRAUSE Asked and answered 10 A Yes 10 A I would say two or three documents I can't give you 11 Q And that's something you've recommended9 12 A Yes 11 the titles or names as 1sit here, but, yes, I might 12 have them in my personal library 13 Q He recommends the cleanup of the area where asbestos 13 Q (BY MR JONES) Do you know if this is one of them, or 14 servicing has taken place be done with an approved 14 you don't remember9 15 vacuum cleaner and by a person wearing a respirator, 15 A No, I've never seen this before 16 true9 16 Q Okay Do you believe you have guidance from the EPA , 17 A True 17 about brake and clutch servicing at your home9 18 Q And that's what you recommended9 19 A It is 18 A Either in my medical school office or m my home 19 office, yes 20 Q Okay Thank you 21 MR BERG Does that mean we are done9 20 Q From what years0 21 A I don't recall 22 MR JONES With that document 22 Q Decades9 23 MR, BERG Oh 23 A In the eighties 24 MR JONES It's going to be more of a 24 Q Is that something you could produce9 25 production when we are done with the whole thing , 25 A Perhaps I'm not an expert though 135 137 1 (Deposition Exhibit Number 16 1` MR BERG The time for asking for documents 2 was marked for identification) 2 has come and gone - 3 Q (BY MR JONES) Let me show you what I've marked as 3 4 Exhibit 16 4 MR JONES No, it hasn't There is a subpoena duces tecum on the deposition notice 5 A I'm looking for a date on this 5 MR BERG To which he has no response of 6 Q It's on the front, the top Have you seen Exhibit 16 7 before9 6 documents 7 MR JONES Maybe he does 8 A No 8 MR BERG You haven't asked him that, but he 9 Q You're not familiar with any EPA guidance concerning 10 Preventing Asbestos Disease Among Auto Mechanics9 9 can ask him 10 Q (BY MR JONES) You do have those documents9 11 MR BERG Well, 1object to the form of the 11 A I believe 12 question 12 Q Okay 13 MR KRAUSE And I'm going to object to 13 MR BERG You're assuming a fact 14 questions about this document It is a document that 14 MR JONES No No 1was assuming a tact 15 has been withdrawn by the EPA and superseded 15 Now 1know a fact 16 MR JONES Your experts are going to have to 16 MR BERG Okay 17 testify about that 17 Q (BY MR JONES) That's something you could produce - 18 MR KRAUSE My objection stands 18 A Yeah, with a little diligence 1believe I'm not sure 19 MR JONES 1know, but you can't testify 19 if it's one or two but certainly one 20 Q (BY MR JONES) Do you have the question in mind9 20 21 MR BERG No He's here to answer the 21 22 question 22 MR JONES We will leave Exhibit 17 open for those documents, and I'll attach this to the air MR BERG To the extentthat you - we are 23 A I'm waiting for your question 24 Q (BY MR JONES) 1had one before -25 A Oh, I'm sorry 23 going to preserve any objection to the production ot . 24 those documents We don't know what they are We 25 don't know if they're within the scope of the subpoena HG LITIGATION'SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROGER L. WABEKE 36 (Pages 138 to 141) 138 140 1 that was issued, and we don't know whether the 2 acquisition of those documents preceded, were i Q It is different 2 A It is different You're right I'm sorry That they 3 concurrent with or postdated his employment at Ford 3 consider purchasing this for their facilities if they 4 Motor Company 4 have mechanics involved in brake servicing 5 To the extent they were acquired before oi 6 after he left Ford Motor Company, they would not be 5 0 And you said that this EPA video entitled "Don't Blow 6 It" would be useful for auto and truck dealer 7 appropriate documents for subpoena m this case 7 mechanics, tow tractor and plant lift truck mechanics 8 Right9 You would agree with that, Counsel, light9 .8 and fleet truck and locomotive brake mechanics, true7 9 MR JONES I'm not agreeing with anything ,9 MR, BERG Objection, form 10 You're just talking, and I'm not getting in your way 10 A That's what it says 11 MR BERG Okay ] 2 MR JONES No, I don't agree with all the 11 Q (BY MR JONES) That's what you said7 12 A Yes That's what I said, yes 13 stuff you said 14 MR BERG Okay. 13 Q And when you sent this letter, you were working for the 14 Ford Motor Company7 15 MR JONES 1don't remember all of it 15 A 1was 16 either I know there is a subpoena duces tecum I 17 know that 16 Q And you sent this letter to it looks like many safety 17 professionals within the Ford Motor Company, true7 18 Q (BY MR JONES) Before you left the Ford Motor 18 A Correct 1 9 Company, you recommended that information about the 19 Q Certainly you were aware of the EPA's "Don't Blow ft" 20 hazards of asbestos be distributed to brake and clutch 20 video at the time9 21 mechanics, true9 21 MR BERG Objection, form 22 MR BERG Objection, form, foundation 22 A Yes 23 A Within Ford Motor Company facilities, yes 23. Q (BY MR JONES) And through this letter it looks like 24 Q (BY MR JONES) And you wanted those mechanics to know 24 many Ford safety professionals, including one medical 25 the potential hazards of working with brakes and 25 doctor, were aware of the EPA's "Don't Blow It" video. 139 . 141 i clutches, true7 1 true7 2 A Yes 2 MR BERG Objection, foundation 3 Q And you wanted those mechanics to know safe work 3 A Well, 1don't know if they're aware of the video 4 practices to avoid those hazards, true9 4 They have my report and the availability of the video, 5 A Yes 5 yes 6 Q And to do that, you recommended that they view an EPA 6 Q (BY MR JONES) Well, they're awaie of the existence 7 video entitled "Don't Blow It", is that true'? 7 of the video7 8 MR BERG Objection to form, foundation 8 A Yes 9 MR KRAUSE Objection, form, foundation 9 Q Because you sent them a letter saying here's a video, 10 A 1don't remember There might have been a cover 10 right7 11 letter by me to this exhibit 1don't know if there 11 A Your question, Mr Jones, suggested they had seen the 12 is or not, if I said it in passing or if there is 12 video or studied it I can't speak to that 13 something 13 0 Fair enough You recommended they get the video9 14 (Deposition Exhibit Number 18 14 A Yes 15 was marked for identification) 15 0 Whether they actually got it or not, you don't know9 16 Q (BY MR JONES) I'll show you what I've marked as 16 A 1don't know 17 Exhibit 18 17 Q Okay And you thought that video "Don't Blow It" from 18 A The question pending7 18 the EPA must have been dated 1987 or before, right7 19 Q What is Exhibit 187 19 ' A Yes 20 A This is my report to the Division Safety Engineers and 20- Q You thought that video would be important for mechanics 21 to Mr Lick who was an industrial hygienist at our 21 to see, true9 22 Transmission and Safety Division or Transmission and 22 MR BERG Objection, form 23 Chassis Division, and it's my recommendation to 23 MR KRAUSE Form 24 p urchase the v id eotap e reflected in e x h ib it -- n o N o 24 Q ( B Y M R JO N E S ) A n d you recom m ended that m echanics 25 I'm sorry 2 5 working for Ford at least watch the EPA's "Don't Blow HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM ROGER L. WABEKE 37 (Pages 142 to 145) 142 ! 144 1 It" video9 2 1 A There is an art and science m industrial hygiene 2 It's a matter of communication as well Asbestos had 3 MR BERG Objection, form 3 captured the thoughts and minds of most people in our 4 A Yes 5 MR BERG Slowdown 4 country at that time 5 MR JONES We have got to go off the record 6 A I'm sorry 6 7 Q (BY MR JONES) It looks like in 1987 the "Don't Blow 7 to change the tape VIDEO TECHNICIAN We are going off the record 8 It" video was $18 35 for beta and $17 50 for VHS, is 8 at 4 52 p m 9 that right7 9 (Off the record) _ 10 A Yes i _ VIDEO TECHNICIAN We are back on the record 11 Q And you included the address where these people could 11 The time is 4 57 p m 12 order the video and the phone numbers they could call 12 . 0 (BY MR JONES) Mr Wabeke, can we agree in 1987 yoi 13 to order the video, true7 13 thought mechanics should have more information about 14 A True 14 the hazards of using compressed air as it relates to 15 Q At this time clearly you thought it was important 15 16 that mechanics get as much information as they could 16 17 about the hazards of asbestos from brakes and clutches, 17 asbestos and other particulates7 MR BERG Objection, form MR KRAUSE Form 18 true7 19 MR BERG Objection, form 18 A More information7 19 Q (BY MR JONES) In the form of the EPA "Don't Blow If 20 MR KRAUSE Objection, form 20 video7 21 MR BERG Foundation 21 A Well, I never saw that video There might be flaws in 22 A That's only partially true, Mr Jones First, there is 22 it I took it on trust, and fm not sure how it was 23 an axiom of industrial hygiene, never use compressed 23 brought to my attention No, I see it there 24 air for blowing anything off any matrix period, and, 24 Q This is real simple The only hazard you mentioned 25 two, the hazards of road dust accumulated on brakes are 25 when you recommend the video -- 143 145 1 far more asbestos 2 They include silica dust which is a long 3 carcinogen and could cause silicosis, dust disease of 1 MR BERG Hold on one second Were you done 2 with your answer9 You cut the witness off 3 MR JONES 1don't think I did Go ahead if 4 the lung It includes lead dust at that time because 4 you've got more 5 they used a lot of tetraethyl lead in our gasoline, and 5 A Well, again 1have not seen the video Perhaps 1took 6 this is present in road dust It included polynuclear 6 it on good faith Maybe I relied and trusted on the , 7 meta hydrocarbons, long carcinogens present in diesel 7 . EPA They put out some good documents with a lot of 8 exhaust This is in road dust as well So this was 8 peer review, but there might be flaws m that 9 not - while it says asbestos because that had the 9 Q (BY MR JONES) My question, you recommended the 10 attention of the public, another motive of mine was 1 0, video, yes9 11 don't use compressed air for anything 11 A Yes 12 Q (BY MR JONES) What you said was "Don't Blow It" 12 MR BERG Asked and answered 13 covers the potential health hazards from exposure to 13 Q (BY MR JONES) The reason you recommended the video 14 asbestos m brake dust and how to effectively control 14 the only hazard you mentioned in this letter is 15 brake dust7 16 A Exactly You're taking it out of context in light of 17 what I ]ust said 18 Q No I'm not taking it out of context 1read that 19 directly from your letter, true7 15 asbestos, yes or no7 16 MR BERG Objection, asked and answered 17 A Yes. That's what it says 18 Q (BY MR JONES) Thank you Mr Wabeke, we spoke on 19 the telephone before this deposition, true7 20 A True 20 A Yes 21 Q And this is the information you wanted brake mechanics 21 Q On a couple of occasions 1believe, true7 ' 22 to receive, this video, true7 2? A Twice 23 A Yes, to also protect them from the other health hazards 23 Q At some point after we spoke you got a lawyer, is that 24 in brake dust 24 true'* 25 Q But asbestos is the only one you listed7 25 A A lawyer was brought to my attention, and since Ive HG LITIGATION SERVICES H G L I T I G A T I O N .COM ROGER L. WABEKE 38 (Pages 146 to 149) 146 148 1 not been a fact witness for 30 years or so, 1thought 1 ' so it must have been after that 2 it might be a good idea to have free Counsel ' 2 A It was after that because 1got a heads up from you 3 0 So the lawyer is free9 4 A Yes 3 what nature of the claim was, and I believe he 4* contacted me I didn't call him You didn't give me 5 Q You're not paying for your lawyer9 6 A No 5 '6 his telephone number 0 1certainly did not 7 Q Who brought the lawyer to your attention9 8 A An attorney by the name of Mr - 1think it was 7 A He called me, so somehow he was in the loop 8 Q Daryl Grahams called you9 9 Daryl Grahams m Dallas 9 A Yes 10 Q And did Mr Grahams tell you that the attorney was 11 free9 10 0 Daryl Grahams offered to provide an attorney for this 11 deposition9 12 A I asked He said yes 12 A Yes 13 Q Do you know who Mr. Grahams is9 14 A Not exactly 1think he's an attorney That's all I 13 Q And at some point did Mr Grahams identify that he 14 worked for the Ford Motor Company9 15 know 15 A Perhaps I don't remember 16 Q Do you know that Mr Grahams represents the Ford Motor 16 0 Have you had any communications with Mr Grahams othei 17 Company9 17 than that phone call9 18 A That doesn't surprise me 18 A Never 19 Q When did you talk to Mr Grahams9 20 A Perhaps a week and a half ago 19 Q Have you received any emails or letters9 20 A No 21 Q Okay What did you and Mr Grahams discuss9 22 A Well, I called him out of the blue because 1received 21 Q Have you had any discussions with anyone at the Ford 22 Motor Company about this deposition9 23 this subpoena to appear I had no idea what it was 23 A No . 24 about Whatever, I thought it would be a good idea to 24 0 Have you had any discussions with representatives of 2 5 get a heads up In fact, Mr Jones, you were going to 2 5 the Ford Motor Company about this deposition9 147 149 1 send me some records, and 1never received them, but, 1 A No 2 in any event, so 1gave a call to explain. 2 Q You haven't talked to Mr Krause about the deposition9 3 He explained in general terms this is 3 A No 4 regarding a Ford dealership mechanic who I thought had 4 Q Did you meet with anyone other than your attorney 5 mesothelioma, whatever, and I was going to be deposed 5 before this deposition9 6 as a fact witness on that, and he offered the services 6 A No 7 of an attorney, and that turned into local Counsel with 7 Q Does your attorney represent you beyond this 8 Mr Berg 8 deposition9 9 Q So Mr Grahams said he was going to provide an attorney 9 A In other matters9 10 for you9 10 Q Yes 11 MR BERG Objection, form 11 A No 12 A 1don't know how it came about He would make a 12 Q Your attorney's representation of you ends with this 13 recommendation 1guess to this firm Clark Hill to have 13 deposition, is that true9 14 somebody sit in and represent me if needed 14 A That's my understanding 15 Q (BY MR JONES) Well, you knew you weren't going to 15 16 have to pay for it9 16 MR JO N ES I'll pass the witness MR K R AU SE Let me show you a document I 17 A Yes 17 don't have copies o f it but take a look at that Mark 18 Q Mr Grahams told you a lawyer would be provided to you 18 19 for free9 19 that as what, Exhibit 19 MR JO N ES Yes 20 A Yes 20 (Deposition Exhibit Number 19 21 Q When did that happen9 22 MR BERG Asked and answered 21 was marked for identification) 22 MR BERG Hold on What was 189 23 A I'd say a week, week and a half ago 23 24 Q (BY MR JONES) It must have been after - the last 2 4- 25 time we had any communication 1believe was on Monday. 25 MR JO N E S The "Don't Blow It" video MR K R AU SE "Don't Blow- It" MR ABR AM SO N 17 is the air HG LITIGATION SERVICES HGLITIGATION.COM