Document QJO45RazXxjdydkOKmxyZVEG5

I IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE TWENTIETH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT 2 ST. CLAIR COUNTY, ILLINOIS 3 4 FRANCES E, KEMNER, ET AL. , 5 Plaintiffs, 6 vs. 7 MONSANTOCOMPANY, 8 Defendants. ) > ) ) NO. 80-L-970 ) ) ) ) ) 9 10 REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS 11 JULY 9 t 1985 12 13 Before the HONORABLE RICHARD P. GOLDENHERSH, Circuit Judge 14 15 APPEARANCES:. 16 MR. REX CARR and MR. JEROME SEIGFREID, Attorneys at Law, on Behalf of the Plaintiffs; and 17 MR. KENNETH HEINEMAN and MR. JOSEPH NASSIF 18 on Behalf of the Defendant, Monsanto Company. 19 20 21 22 23 24 1 INDEX OF WITNESSES 2 Called on behalf of the Plaintiffs* 3 DR. GEORGE ROUSH 4 Cross Examination 5 (By Mr. Carr)............. ........ ......... 2 6 7 INDEX OF EXHIBITS 8 PLAINTIFF'S EX. NO MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION 9 1466 10 3 1467 11 1466 12 41 49 1469 13 30 1470 14 30 1471 15 35 1471A 16 88 1472 17 73 1473 18 108 1474 19 117 147SA & B 20 113 1473C 21 117 1474A 22 118 ADMITTED INTO EVIDENCE 3 42 32 52 52 39 23 24 2 1 BE IT REMEMBERED AND CERTIFIED, that heretofore, 2 on to-wit: July 9, 1985, the matter aa hereinbefore set 3 forth came on for hearing before the Honorable Richard P. 4 Goldenherah, Circuit Judge In and for the Twentieth Judicial 5 Circuit, and the following was had of record, to-wlt: 6 7 (The cross examination under section 2-1102 of 8 Dr. George Roush by Mr. Carr continued as follows:) 9 10 (At this time Plaintiff's exhibit 1467 was 11 marked for Identification by the court reporter.) 12 13 Q (By Mr. Carr) Doctor, I'll hand you now what's 14 been marked Plaintiff's exhibit 1467, ask you to look at 15 that, If you would. Do you recognize that as a news release 16 Issued by Monsanto relating to the study that we've looked 17 at yesterday? 18 A Yes, sir. 19 Q Now, Doctor, the purpose of news releases Is to let 20 the public be Informed as to things and events that Monsanto 21 considers Important, and of course, for the benefit of the 22 public relations aspect of the Monsanto operation; would 23 that be correct, sir? 24 A Y e s , s i r 1 MR. CARR: I 'd like to offer 1467 Into evidence at 2 this time. 3 THE COURT: Any objections? 4 MR. HEINEMAN: Your Honor, I think the last number 5 we had was 1465, 6 MR. CARR: We'll make this 1466 then, 7 THE COURT: Okay. 8 MR. CARR: We'll just mark lt--just put a 6 over 9 the 7. 10 11 (At this point previously marked Plaintiff's 12 exhibit 1467 was correctly marked to Plaintiff's 13 exhibit 1466 for purposes of identification.) 14 15 MR. CARR: Now, I offer 1466, your Honor. 16 THE COURT: Okay. Any objections? 17 MR. HEINEMAN: No objections, your Honor. 18 THE COURT: It's admitted without objection. 19 Q (By Mr. Carr) Dr. Roush-- I '11 withdraw the question 20 for a moment. Dr. Roush, to put this press Release in per 21 spective, at the time it was released in 1980, Monsanto was 22 a defendant in the Sturgeon spill case, of course this one, 23 the Nitro, West Virginia case being sued by its workers, by 24 the Viet Nam Veterans in the "Agent Orange" case, and in a 1 number of other cases related to dioxin and dioxin exposures: 2 is n 't that correct sir? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And the study as a matter of fact, it uses the word- * 5 words "Agent Orange" at the heading of it rather than dioxin, 6 doesn't it, sir, because it is that-- dioxin is that part of 7 "Agent Orange" that has created the problem; isn't that 8 correct, sir? 9 A What problem? 10 Q The problem associated with dioxin exposure, sir. 11 A Yes. 12 Q And the study Itself, if it were true, as stated by 13 Miss Zack-- Mrs. Zack, as we have established yesterday, 14 would go a long ways towards negating those people that 15 claim that dioxin either promotes or initiates cancer in 16 human beings; would it not, sir? 17 A Yes. 18 Q But, if the figures that we've established yester 19 day that were in fact the cancer deaths from those people 20 exposed to TCDD at the plant, it would have the contrary 21 effect, wouldn't it, sir, that is, it would show a strong 22 relationship between exposure to TCDD and death from cancer, 23 would it not, sir? 24 A If you can add those two together. 1 Q Yes, Indeed. If these figures that ve put in 2 exhibit 1464 and 1464A are indeed eorrect from the medical 3 records that we have here, this shows a very strong relation 4 ship between TCDD exposure and death by cancer, doesn't it, 5 sir? 6 A If you can add those. 7 Q Yes, Isn't that correct, sir? 8 A What? Is what correct? 9 Q If these are added together and if these figures 10 are true, it shows a strong relationship between TCDD e x 11 posure and death by cancer, 12 A If you can add those two. 13 Q Is the answer to my question yes, if these are 14 added? 15 A They can't be added together. 16 Q Dr. Roush, that is a point of contention. If these 17 exhibits accurately reflect the facts, and assume they do, 18 if you would, sir-- 19 A Yes, sir. 20 Q -- if they accurately reflect the facts, they show 21 a strong relationship between TCDD exposure and death by 22 cancer-- 23 A Yes. 24 Q -- don't they, sir? I And if these figures had been exhibited, had been 2 made public in 1980, they could have been used against 3 Monsanto in the Veterans case against Monsanto, could they 4 not, sir, to show the risk that the Viet Nam Veterans have 5 been exposed to by reason of their exposure to "Agent Orange", 6 that is dioxin. 7 MR. HEINEMAN: Your Honor, I'm going to object to 8 that. I t 's calling for sheer speculation on the part of 9 this witness. Of course, it doesn't take into consideration 10 the enormous difference in levels of exposure between those 11 people Involved in that litigation, and those people involved 12 in the Nitro study. 13 MR. CARS.! Your Honor, I'll accept those. 14 Q (By Mr. Carr) The difference in exposure, not only 15 the exposure of the Sturgeon people, but the exposure of 16 the Viet Nam Veterans, and the exposure to the--of the in 17 dustrial workers to TCDD has to be taken into consideration, 18 mustn't it, sir? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Yes. But this study, if the figures that we have 21 shown from these records are Indeed the fact, it could be 22 used in any court, sofaras you know, to support the position 23 that may be taken by those persons claiming Injury from 24 dioxin to show that the risk of cancer is great or greater 1 than it should be; i s n 't that correct, sir? 2 MR. HEINEMAN; Let me object--may I renew my objection 3 your Honor, on the bounds it calls for speculation, conclu 4 sion on the part of this witness. 5 THE COURT; Excuse me. Overruled. Proper question. 6 THE WITNESS; If we say that the cancer was forty7 three percent higher than expected-- 8 Q (By Mr. Carr) Yes. 9 A --that doesn't mean that it's statistically signifi 10 cant and has no meaning if it's not statistically significant. 11 We can test that. 12 Q Excuse me. Doctor, could you answer the question 13 that I posed to you. 14 A I'm not sure. 15 Q Let me put it a different way. You issued this 16 P88 Release, and you headlined it "Study Fails To Link 17 "Agent Orange" To Deaths Of Industrial Workers," did you not, 18 sir? 19 A Yes, sir. 20 Q And the study that you submitted, in fact, left out 21 half of the cancer deaths, did it not, sir, according to 22 exhibit 1464 and 1464A? 23 A Yas. 24 Q Yes. Now, Doctor, the study here, if you'll just 1 look at tha vary first paragraph, it indeed describes it as 2 a study to show whether or not a relationship exists between 3 TCDD, that is the dioxin, and the cause of death. 4 A Yes, sir. 5 Q Doesn't it, sir? 6 A Yes, sir. 7 Q And it's really not concerned about whether or not 8 it's 2,4,5-T, it's concerned about the relationship between 9 TCDD and the cause of death; isn't it, sir? 10 A Yes. 11 Q And, Doctor, there is another, at least, change in 12 this Press Release. It describes this study as being co 13 authored by Judith Zack and Dr. Suskind, doesn't it, sir? 14 A Yes. 15 Q In fact, Dr. Suskind refused to be listed as a co 16 author of this study, did he not, sir? 17 A I don't know. 18 Q It ultimately came out, did it not, called the Zack19 Gaffey Report? 20 A Yes, sir. 21 Q And Gaffey had nothing to do with it, did he, sir? 22 A Oh, yes. 23 Q Well, why did Dr. Suskind-- why did you issue this 24 Press Release describing Dr. Susking as a co-author when in 1 fact he was not a co-author, and when in fact he never allow 2 ed his name to be attached to this study? 3 A I don't know. 4 MR. HEINEMAN: Let me object to the question first, 5 Doctor, please. Let me object to the question as calling for 6 speculation on the part of this witness, unless you establish 7 that he had anything at all to do with the drafting of the 8 Press Release. 9 THE COURTi Objection is overruled. 10 Q (By Mr. Carr) Well, D. R, Bishop is the person in 11 charge of press relations, is he not, or was at that time? 12 A He was for this area* 13 Q And he prepared this Press Release, did he not, sir? 14 A Yes, sir. 15 Q And you, of course, were familiar with and are aware 16 of the fact that these Press Releases were coming out, w e r e n ft 17 you, sir? 18 A I usually am. 19 Q And you, of course, were vitally concerned about this 20 study, weren't you, sir? 21 A Y e s . 22 Q An important work? 23 A Yes. 24 Q And you, of course, read this Press Release, did you I not, sir? 2 A I'm aure I did. 3 Q Yea. 4 A But X can't be positive. 5 Q And, Doctor, do you know any of the circumstances 6 under which Dr. Suskind failed or refused or was not listed 7 in the ultimate study as finally published as a co-author 8 of this study? 9 A No. 10 Q Can it be, Doctor, or do you know whether or not 11 the fact that these nine deaths were omitted-- now, of these 12 nine deaths, Dr. Suskind had to be aware of eight of them 13 because they were in the report that he did co-author-- 14 A Yes. 15 Q -- while in a minor wa y -- 16 A Yes. 17 Q --he was fully aware and he had to be aware of the 18 fact that these four deaths, Farley, Hudnall, Wesley and 19 Ortho, were, in fact, deaths in persons exposed to TCDD 20 even though the study showed them as being unexposed to 21 TCDD. Now, he had to be aware of those facts, mustn't he, 22 sir, Just as Mrs. Zack was aware of those facts? 23 MR. HB1NEMAN: Let me object to the form of the 24 question, as calling for speculation and conclusion on the part of this witness as to what Dr. Suskind knew about the 2 Zack-Gaffey study. 3 THE COURT: Objection is overruled. It*8 a proper 4 question. 5 THE WITNESS: I don't think that he knew that those 6 four people were Included in that one--in the non-exposed. 7 Q (By Mr. Carr) Well, Doctor, he knew that these 8 four people were, in fact, exposed, di d n 't he, sir? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Because he listed them in the Zack-Suskind study-11 A Y e s . 12 Q --as exposed, didn't he, sir? 13 A Yes, sir. 14 Q Now, when this 1980 study by Zack was submitted to 15 him, and it had these same people listed as being unexposed, 16 he could, if he read the document, as presumably he must 17 have read it if it was submitted to him, if he was to be 18 one of the co-authors, it must have been submitted to him-19 A Yes, sir. 20 Q --wasn't it, sir? 21 A I'm sure it was. 22 Q He could have read, like we read it, he could have 23 compared it like we compared it, and found that these four 24 people were, in fact, listed in the unexposed table, when. 1 In fact, he knew that they were exposed. He could have 2 deduced that, a competent scientist could have deduced that, 3 couldn't he, sir? 4 A But he wouldn't have read it to that detail. 5 Q Did you read it to that detail? 6 A No, sir. 7 Q Dr. Roush, when was it that you first learned that 8 these four people that were exposed to TCDD were Included 9 in Table 11? 10 A As we were getting ready for the Nltro lawsuit. II Q Didn't you learn it, in fact, after-- after this 12 case was in trial? 13 A This one? 14 Q And after we put it in evidence in April or May IS of this past year? 16 A No, sir. It was when that Nitro lawsuit where this 17 was involved. 18 Q Dr. Roush, you don't know that-- that we had it 19 testified to here in the spring of 1984? Your attorneys 20 didn't advise you that we showed this to the Jury in the 21 spring of 1984? 22 A No. No, sir. 23 Q And you learned of this-- the fact that these four 24 cancer deaths were put in an unexposed group by Mrs. Zack I in the Nitro case? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Did you learn it yourself, or was it pointed out 4 to you? 5 A It was pointed out to me. 6 Q In the Nltro case? 7 A Yes, sir. 8 Q And was It brought out by the plaintiffs In that 9 case, or was it brought out by the defendants in that case? 10 A I don't know. 11 Q You don't know whether you voluntarily admitted 12 that-- 13 A I don't know how--why they went back and reviewed 14 it. 15 Q Well, in any event, if you discovered it and if we 16 discovered it, Dr. Susklnd surely could have discovered it? 17 A If he had had the names to associate with that, he 18 could have. 19 Q Well, he had the names. He had the report. He 20 co-authored the study. And you don't even need the names. 21 You can do it by looking at the year of birth, the year of 22 hire, the year of termination, because these are the reasons 23 we discovered it. We didn't have the names. All we had was 24 these tables. 1 A Right. 2 Q We compared these tables, and we saw that we had 3 exactly the same dates of everything, exactly the same cause 4 of death, everything. That's the way it was discovered by 5 u s We didn't have these reports at that time, Dr. Roush. 6 A Yes, sir, I understand. 7 Q They weren't produced to us. 8 MR. HEINEMANi Let me object to that as a speech 9 by Counsel, no question involved. I ask that it be strlken, 10 ask the jury to be Instructed to disregard it. 11 THE COURT: Objection is overruled. 12 Q (By Mr. Carr) Now, he could have done the same 13 thing that we did, couldn't he, sir? 14 A Yes. 15 Q He could have compared the deaths in Table 2 that 16 was in his report, the Zack-Suskind Report, and seen that 17 they had exactly the same years and days and causes of death, 18 these four people, couldn't he, sir? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Now, maybe it's unfair to ask you, but did you or 21 have you discussed the fact that these four deaths that were 22 in the Zack-Suskind Report, cancer deaths, have you discussed 23 that with Dr. Susklnd? 24 A No, sir. 1 Q So you actually than, as you sit her now, you 2 actually don't know th extent of his knowledge, you don't 3 know whether he even knows today that these deaths were 4 included in the unexposed group, do you, sir? 5 A . Ho., J \ , -, J Ik ' M i ' ** *' 6 Q Wall, didn't you-- haven't you had-- didn't it con- 7 . c e m you, Dr, ;Roush,;that, Mrs,. `Zack did this? 8 A Ho, sir. ' , j; k ' iJ ,-1 * , J k -" * '% ' 9 Q Oh, it was don"with your approval? 10 A This study is.done and followed Just the way it's 11 described. 12 Q Then you intended, you at Monsanto, intended that 13 this be done; is that correct, sir? It was not an accident, 14 or it was not Just on the part of Mrs. Zack, her own massag IS ing of the figures? This was a policy that Monsanto made 16 and approved and wanted to happen; is that correct, Dr. 17 Roush? 18 MR. HEINEMAH; I object, your H o n o r a t o the use of 19 the term'hiassaging of the figures.11 If he'd just let the 20 witness explain how the two epidemiological studies arise, 21 we could certainly get an explanation of this. But he doesn't 22 want the jury to hear that. I object to the use of the term. 23 TOE COURT: Objection is overruled. Your objection 24 is improper. Go ahead/ M r . Carr, I THE WITNESS : I don't know what you moan by policy, 2 Q (By Hr. Carr); Dr. Roush, did you at Monsanto, as 3 part of the policy making group dealing with these studies 4 and what's to*be revealedto the public, and the health 5 studies to be performed,^ the mortality studies to be perform 6 ed, did you know of and did you approve of the putting of the 7 four exposed deaths, these four people who were exposed in *, - \ ' ' 8 the TCP accident, in, 1949? Did you approve of putting those 9 four people in the unexposed Table 11 in the Zack-Gaffey 10 Report of 1980? n MR, HEINEMAN; let me object, your Honor. I believe 12 the witness--! believe that's been asked and answered. The 13 witness testified he didn't even know about it until the . 14 Nitro study,1the Nitro' lawsuit. Am I incorrect? 15 MR, CARR: The witness is now saying that it was 16 done, and they approved of it, at least the inference is 17 that they knew of It, and that i t ' s 'proper, and that what 18 was done was appropriate. 19 THE WITNESS: No, sir. 20 Q (By Mr. Carr) No, sir, what, sir? 21 A I did not-- 22 THE COURT:, Wait a second. Before it's answered, 23 I will overrule the objection. You may answer now, Dr. 24 Roush. 1 THE WITNESS j I didn't know that those four were 2 not--were in that study there. 3 Q (By Mr. Carr) You did not know it? * J j f \ , \T " 4 A Right, -'' 5 Q And since you did not k n o w i t , y o u 'obviously did J. . * t^ ' * r- i f' 6 not approve it-, hot .knowing it; is that correct, sir? 7 A Approve what? s ' V N : ` ' - 4- ' 8 Q What we*re talking about, Or. Roush. 9 A I d o n 't know-- 10 Q These four deaths from cancer wh o were exposed to 11 TCDD,'being put in Table 12.. 12 A It was a part of the design of that study. 13 Q Excuse me. Is it, therefore--are you saying that 14 you approve of it and it's proper? 15 A Yes. 16 Q All right. And y o u 're speaking for Monsanto, you 17 approve of what was done, and in your judgment i t 's proper? 18 A In that study it was proper. 19 Q . Yes. All right. T h a t 's what I want to establish. 20 Then y o u 'd have no reason to talk to Dr. Suskind about'it 21 because in your--in Monsanto's judgment i t 's proper to tell 22 the world at large that these four people who di&d of-cancer 23 had no exposure to TCDD? 24 A The reportsstates-- 1 Q Could you answer that question please sir? 2 A Would you repeat that question for ms. I'm sorry i 43 ; - i\* i *i \1 ^ 4 (The previous question was read back by the 5 court reporter.) V "[ ' *6 - , v it ' ' t -r.i - r. 7 THE W I TNESS The answer to that is no.. 8 Q (By Hr. Carr) Then it's not proper to tell the 9 world at large; is that right sir? 10 A Hot to tell them that there wasn't exposure that's il right. 12 Q And in fact what.you did tell them however in 13 this study Is that w e were not exposed to TCDD, did you air? 14 A Tea. 15 Q Then Doctor how can you say. it's proper to tall 16 them that they're not exposed to TCDD, and yet say it'a 17 Improper to include them in a table indicating that they were 18 not exposed, or vice versa? 19 A . Because a part of that study design. 20 Q Doctor, we established yesterday the purpose of 21 that study was to determine cancer deaths caused by TCDD. 22 A Yes, sir. 23 Q Yes. And they ware put in a group of people who 24 presumably had no exposure to TCDD; isn't that correct, sir? 1 A By job assignment. 2 Q Yes, ; And , Doctor, in fact,; they had exposure to \V 3 TCDD, though j didn 't they, sir? 4 A Yes. " 5 Q And, ther afore, the person that reads that is 6 going to believe t lftt .they were not exposed to TCDD, but 7 yet that they died of cancer when, in fact, you knew 8 absolutely that they were exposed to TCDD? Don't you sea 9 something rotten t h e r e , Dr. Roush? 10 A No, sir. II Q That is proper in your judgment? 12 A The report states that that unexposed group could 13 include some workers who had exposure that we couldn't 14 determine. IS Q Where does it state that, Doctor? 16 A It's in tfye text of that paper. 17 Q It states what you couldn't determine? 18 A We couldn* t -- 19 Q But, Doctor, you could determine it. You did 20 determine i t . You knew that they were exposed to it because 21 they were so listed in 1979 by Zack-Suskind. So that was 22 a lie, wasn't it, slir? 23 A No, sir. 24 Q It w a s n 't a lie? 20 1 A N o ,, s i r . ,, 17 '' - C\ 2 Q You. knew: they were exposed;, didn't you sir? 3' A Yes.,, - *' * `tF 4* ` 't 6 L J 4 Q And yet you"said y o u 1couldn't determine Whether or 5 not t h e y 're exposed,.d i d n 't you,! sir? Didn't you Just get 6 through saying that, sir? 7 A rYes. j 8 Q -So that's a lie, isn't it, sir? You knew that they 9 were exposed, but yet you said you couldn't determine whether 10 or not they were exposed. That's a lie. Dr. Roush, any way 11 ' you look at it i t 's a lie. 12 A No, it i sn't. 13 Q It i s n 't? -* 14 A No, sir. 15 Q Is it the truth to say that, you couldn't determine 16 whether or not these people were exposed to TCDD? Is that 17 ,-the truth, sir? 18 A Yes. ' 19 Q When you -knew they were exposed to TCDD because 20 they were in that accident? r <* 21 A Y a s . 22 1 Q That is the truth, sir? 23 A It's the truth that we knew that they were exposed 24 to dioxin. L1 j, t 1 Q Then if you Rnew they were.exposed to dioxin, it's 2 not the truth to say .that you could not determine that; isn't ( ii * J '% ,( i 3 that correct, sir? - 4 A On those four that *b ,correct. ' J1 * \ ,H ' v- j \^ f ^ * ; 5 ' Q So it is a lie as to those four, Isn't it, Doctor? 6 A It's Incorrect. 7 Q If you know something is the truth, sir, if you 8 know something is a fact,.that is a lie any way you look at 9 ` It, isn't It, Dr. Roush? 10 A It's incorrect. 11 Q Would you answer my question, Dr. Roush. 12 A Wo, it's not a lie. 13 Q It's not a lie? 14 A W o , s i r . 15 Q Is it.a lie when I know that I have four pieces 16 > of paper in my hand, Dr. Roush, if I tell you that I have .17 three pieces of paper in my hand, knowing that I have four? 18 A m I telling you a lie or am I telling you the truth, or am 19 I simply being incorrect? I know I have four. It Is in m y 20 mind that 1 have four. I tell you I have three. Am 1 tell- 21 .ing you a lie, or am I telling you the truth? 22 A If you knowingly, that's a lie. 23 Q All right. And you indeed knew that these four 24 were exposed to TCDD, did'you not, sir? 1 A Yes, , . ,4 , . 11 * r 'J r ^ . 2 Q And 2ack knew that, didn't she, sir? 3 A I don't know* 4 Q You don't' know that she know that? 5 .A I'm hot sure, 6 Q Did she not prepare both of these tables? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Then she knew the contents of both of those tables, 9 did she not, sir? ^ 10 A If she went back with the other one, she would have* if Q Well, she did them both. She did them both at 12 practically the same time. 13 A They were quite separated, 14 Q She referred to both, Doctor. 15 A Yes, sir, 16 Q She referred to both. She worked with both. Both 17 the medical records were the same. Those four medical 18 records are the same as these four medical records, were 19 they not, sir? She prepared both tables, didn't she, sir? 20 A Yes, sir. 21 Q Is there any way that she could not know that these 22 four people were in the list of a hundred and twenty-two 23 that had chloracne, that were exposed to the TCP accident? 24 Any way she could not know that? - ; . ' :; ` W *' 1` 1 A If she had gone--If she had looked at It and tried * *2 /to compare them, she would .have seen them, i - ' 1-i i4 * > *,'-} j. i ** ,, 3 Q She had to go and pick them out. She had to know 4 that they were in the original hundred and twenty-two, didn't 5 she, sir? 6 A Yes, 7 Q And she had to know the dates of their births, she 8 had to look at those records to pull that out, didn't she, 9 sir? 10 A Yes, sir. But I 'm not sure she compared them. 11 Q Well, have you discussed it with her? Have you 12 ever asked her how she happened to tell something that was 13 untrue? 14 A She didn't tell something was untrue. 15 Q Dr, Roush, didn't w e just get through establishing 16 that these people were exposed to TCDD? 17 A Yes, sir, 18 Q And they're listed in a table as not being exposed, 19 aren't they, sir? 20 A Yes, 21 Q And that's not the truth then, is it, sir? 2l A That's right. 23 Q Now, did you ever discuss that with Mrs, Zack? 24 A No,.sir, I didn't know it, Q Well, you knew it as far back as the spring of 1984. 24 1 You learned it then. 2 A r But Judy' Zack wasn't working with us. 3 Q But she came in for a deposition taken by the people 4 at N i tro. 5 A, I didn't know that, 6 Q You didn't know that? 7 A No, sir, 8 Q Bid you bother to inquire Dr. Roush? 9 A- No, sir, 10 Q Dr, Roush, this report, how you know that the Viet 11 Nam case has been settled. You know it was disposed of,, and 12 you know what occurred there. 13 . HR, HEINEMAN: Your Honor, I object to this as being' 14 irrelevant, and an attempt to influence the jury, and I 15 object to It. 16 THE COURT: Objection is overruled. You may pro 17 ceed, Mr. .Carr. 18 Q (By Mr. Carr) Dr. Roush, doesn't it concern you 19 that you at Monsanto have put out a document that is--this ,,' " " A r 20 Frees Release and the document that was published, put out 21 a document that is based upon untruth? 22 A Y e s . 23 Q Now, Dr. Roush, what have you done about that 24 ' concern? PENGAD CO.. BAYONNE, N.J, 1 A . Nothing *1 *' - t * * '! 2 Q Dr. Roush, don't you believe that it is Monsanto's 3 duty to right this wrong, to let the people know that this 4 is an untruth, to let the scientific community know that 5 this is an untruth? . 6 A I'd have to look at it to see what effect it has 7 on the report* 8 Q Doctor, you know, if you take these four deaths, 9 which were taken and put in the exposed group. It makes it 10 thirteen deaths in the exposed group In that table itself, 11 not just nine, but thirteen, and it,reduces this group by. 12 four. 13 A But you can't put that in the other group. 14 Q Doctor, you can, because they were exposed. But 15 just reducing that group by four, sir, would be important 16 to the scientific community. Now, If it's of concern to you, 17 Dr. Roush, and you've known it since 1984, since the spring 18 of 1984, why haven't you done something about it? 19 A I just haven't gotten around to it, 20 Q One of these days you'll get around to it, Dr. Roush? 21 A Yes, sir. 22 Q Dr, Roush, if you will turn to the second page of 23 this document, you've announced in that second paragraph in ` 24 the middle o f the page there that this study found no 1 statistically significant excess in total deaths or deaths 2 due to cancer or disease of the nervous system circulatory 3 system respiratory system or digestive system. Do you see 4 that sir? 5 A Yes sir, 6 Q Now, have you determined whether or not adding these 7 eighteen deaths, these additional nine deaths to the cancer 8 group would make a difference statistically sir? Have you 9 made the determination? 10 A I did last night. 11 Q Oh you did make a determination? 12 A 1 went to see what it would do if w e put them to 13 gether. I do n 't think you can. You can't put those t o 14 gether. 15 Q Doctor they are together h e r e . 16 A Yes, 3ir. 17 Q They are deaths from cancer. They were deaths from 18 cancer to people who were exposed to TCDD, are they not? 19 A Yes, sir. 20 Q There were eighteen deaths of your w o rkers, people 21 that have worked for you, faithfully, loyally for years and 22 years, eighteen people that died of cancer from being ex 23 posed to TCDD. 24 A No. Associated in that group. That doesn't mean that they died from exposure to TCDD. .r : >* ' ^ ` # :r 1 Q Doctor, they were exposed to TCDD, were they not? 2 A That doesn't mean--the question is every popula- 1t 3 tion is going to have-- 4 Q Doctor, were they exposed to TCDD? 5 A Yes, sir* 6 Q Did they die of cancer? 7J A Yes, 8 Q And was this study an effort to associate or find 9 out whether or not there was a relationship to exposure to 10 TCDD and deaths by cancer and death by other causes? I I A It doesn't show an association* 12 Q Excuse me. Was the purpose of the study to deter 13 mine whether or not there was an association or a relation 14 ship between exposure to TCDD and death by cancer? 15 A It doesn't mean there's a n rassociation-16 Q Excuse me. Was that the purpose of the study, 17 -Doctor? 18 A No, sir. 19 Q Sir? 20 A No, sir. 21 Q It w a s n 't? 22 A No, sir. 23 Q D i d n 't we just get through establishing that, sir, 24 In the --where is that group of exhibits--in the statement 27 ir 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 i 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 that she said, sir, in several different places where it says the study presented here examines the mortality of Nitro plant workers who were assigned to an area of TCP or 2 ,4,5-T production with potential for exposure to TCDD? Isn't that exactly what it says? 'A Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Q And isn't that, the purpose of this study, sir? A There is-- the purpose of the study is to see whether there's an excess of deaths in that population. That doesn't mean there's an association if you find it. Q , And doesn't she go on to say, "as a result, the only specific hypothesis that can be tested Is whether a relation*1 ship exists between potential TCDD exposure and proportional mortality, especially for malignant neoplasms?" A ,Y e s . (J , Q Doesn't she say that, sir?r -A Where did you read that? Q * We read it yesterday several times, Doctor. Right there. - A - All right. Q Do you see it, Doctor? A Yes, sir. -1 *, 1 J Q Doctor, the purpose of the study was to see whether ' or not there's a relationship between exposure to TCDD and BAYONNE, y 4. r 1 1 -`ii s. - f -- ^ ^r '; i * P*\' -i i 'TJi'a < ,r l '1 * 4. \ ^ *. , X* ., * ' ' J v *..* ' s^/,* vvA J* 1 ' *- " * * '' ' -1 *,, . i 28 1' < : *' 3 '- L ^ ^ ;1. - ' death b y cancer? (. * f/ , /. , ' ' ' -, \ - . - -' , 2' .v/i 1 ;v*. '* 3' ,A ,Q Possible relationship. , / * , -" 1 V, . ` To see if there's~ a. possible relationship-- ; 4 , V;`. ' ` A .V Yes, - " '" '" " ' L . . ' ,'5 , ' V ` Q, : --between exposure to TCDD and death by cancer? 6 *> ' . ' / A ' , 'Yes; _ ' ,, ' .,7 : Q And these 'are .eighteen deaths of people that were 8 - exposed to TCDD? , 9 / \ " A Yes, sir. ;r 10 ' '"y i / 12 Q And doesn't that have just a bearing on whether o r - VI' ** P' ,J * ,' J" * * J1 * not there;is a causal relationships Doctor? 7 1V -, ' - S ^ A . It can have,, / ;\ " 1 r .A / ^" J : ' V ' ' r -1 ' 13 14 ' Q* ^ That's the purpose;of'the whole study; isn't it, sir? ' 1 , _/ . - - . , 15. ' j / tic O " T, , - 16 `- sO0 t ' , -- 17 * 1 U, Z Z2<m* r . j* is " t 19 1'' . .. j^ A A-l '^ ` .. > Q. That's right., ' ' ; *, . '* r.J ' ' J' ' 4 i " ,pI 1 J ** ` J , And she eliminated'fifty percent, ' -. V / '> ' - J tf - " 1 t 1J *r didn't she, / r -> ( sir, .. by eliminating these nine? Didn't she, sir? A ^Yes. ' "- * ? ; '' Q Doctor, on the next page, she states, -or the Press V2 / *Z It) J 20/ * - -ir - 21 Release states to the world at large this was; done--this-is In the.second paragraph in the middle of the page,' talking . * - 22 about comparing the work history of the hundred and sixty- . V ; 23 r three decedents. She took allVof the people that died, fifty- L l . ;. , 24 . -* t 1 , eight * 4 ^ ' y*~r~- - * r . : J .*-,if i. ' > . Ti .f', . >J. *.-ovi had b e e n e xposed;to ;2/4,5rT-, ;anda hundred and four BAYONNE N*J. y '' . ','**> V ; v. i ; f ' ' ' . " *r| r . ' t r .y I were considered non-exposed. So presumably, Doctor, these 2 '..nine deaths here are all in the non-exposed, aren't they, 3 sir? 4 A Yes 5 Q they're not in the fifty-eight, are they, sir? 6 A No, 7 Q So she's considering--she's telling the world, 8 Monsanto is telling the world that these nine deaths came v 9 from people who were not exposed to TCDD, doesn't she, sir? 10 . A . By virtue of job assignment* 11 Q And it goes on to say this, was done to test whether 12 any relationship existed between potential TCDD exposure 13 and proportional mortality, doesn't it say that, sir? 14 A- Yes. 15 Q When, in fact, these folks were exposed to TCDD 16 and put in the non-exposedgroup, isn't it, sir? 17 A Yes, sir. On purpose. , 18 Q By purpose? 19 A Because-- 20 Q Exactly right, sir. 21 A That's because of the design of that study said 22 they couldn't be included. ; 23 Q ^ Then this'statement, Doctor, this was done to test, 24 i J j.1 7i , r ' l; ; 4 ^ f it how on earth, if you know"that a hundred people have been \ 30 i; exposed to TCDD by having ,,been in an accident and having " .worked up cleaned, up ;that accident but simply because . they are not at the time of the study assigned to a place where they're producing the TCDD, how on earth can you compare those hundred people who were exposed in the acci dent and say they are not exposed to TCDD?. HOW can you say that, Doctor with straight face? J ,A...' By virtue of fcheir Job assignment. They,never had worked in TCP or ,2 , 4 #5?T. Hone of those. : But they were, all exposed to. TCDD, weren't they sir? j ' l? \ /--V - , . A' Yes, sir,; L ^r . . Q And they w e r e -all-- these,four all had" chloracne, didn't `they, sir? ` `: </-'-./* V :;-. -,A `'Yes* Q A hallmark .of TCDD exposure? 'A'^-Yea, sir., y L- ^ -f Q You knew-- you knew, you were absolutely certain because these four having chloracne,-you knew for absolute U *, ' ** r l T* * r^ certainty that they were exposed to TCDD, without a question of-a doubt . ; < A ' . \ Q Yes, sir.;., t . y, J 1 And:thay- h a d \ `;,, \^ ,r.-- I: r-(- 1" - [a- ,t V ` ' - " , ' 'v " ^ f 1s; compensation claims .-for it. Yet, you put\these people-;in;a group that you told - -. ' 'I Y ' r C' * \ r* ' ' '. . ^( 1 .>.> /'. ftV<,.J-.-. J. v /"'4V V 31 r "the world at largo, one hundred; and four were considered 2 non-exposed, " r^ - 3. . A By virtue of job assignment. - , . 4 r l7 Q . You don't say by. virtue of job/assignment. You 5 d o n *t tell them that they were in fact exposed in this 6' ^ 7 f; accident, that they developed chloracne, ;world that* tdo you , sir?; / , You don't tell the 8 v 7 9" J` .j ' . / A We tell them in the. report. -V <i . , . , 1 /j , 1 1 . f ` .l i i ~r ' - , -, . ." - : ,u' , , .' Q /You do n 't tell them, that in the,report, s i r b e c a u s e 10 . " 11 in the report, you say}TCP production as well; .And these people'were iti the TCP production. . 12 _Af . No , they .were not ,. /' ,* 13 14: ' Q Oh, Doctor, iwhere d o ,you get the information that " ^\ , i H. %. ` ' HP r r i FJ' 1 V " ' they 'were hot? / - '' - .15. A .Because they had never-- \ 16 Q /inhere do you get'the information they were hot? ' 17 ' : - ,A zV From their, work record.. fj 1 t x ' / 18 J v ,Q /Where** s the" work ^records,, that says, t h a t , sir? / .1 9 - /- A The plant work records - /^ .r 20 Q/ Do, you have -rhave you ever seen that work record, 21 >r' 1,, 22v; sir? iwo * -f it f t1.' ' i < \ t" `- y. - * * -,-' -* *'l. ,.1 ^, .*r J' f / * . >,J ; V; . t ->L-i ` ->. i *< t. ` ' }ic'Lr`i ; ^ * .. J<V 'v . v . i r^ i-- . - v ,..; .1 23 ' Q How dp you sit `i i A , there\ under ,bath !,**'* and say they v; - 24 ' , rv.'; . ,not prroodduucdinncg*-TCPP??./. > -v'V r . . x 7 'V* ''-i r y r\\ *r ''V \ - *> -'vi ( / ,1 h''j<i* r* f<1_<i s rz 11 .m&oj n. K^ r^r *r ' " J Y f .. r k ri ^ F' - 32 " ,, r' ' ', '' ' ^ ' ' t l v /, , . A - Because that's what Zack was to d o ; / ,2 r ^ .Q . That's what Zack was t o d o . Sack tells you that 3- . JJ they .were riot exposed* that.they we r e n o t in the w o r k p r o - 4 . duct ion area* ` . , /. ; v . *j -r 5 ' ./ :A That's right;/ 1 * 'j ~ ~ *'/. > 6 ,. Q And you believed what Zack tells you? BAYONNE* N .J. ' 0 7 0 0 2 ' FORM IL ; i . ' \ _A Yes, sir. ^ . ; z^// , - -' '\ 8 >r: '- v \9' 10 Q You believe what/Zack;tells you when/she says that these people w e r e n o t exposed to TCDD? . J JA * * . ' . r'1 ` ! ""* ^ . By v i rtue o f -job, as s i g n m e n t , - 'r ` -^ `.'* ' /, -n p j*12,- * Q They talk about potentially e x p o s e d t o T C D D . This/ t r' .' > J is a study of people who, were- exposed to TC D D as .we estab- ; -13 lished yesterday, did we n o t , sir?.' . . >. '/ 14 V ,,r y S '^ A . Ko> sir,/that's not what that was t o d o * Q Excuse me. Didn't w e e s t a b l i s h .that yesterday, sir? ` L/ ` / ;;' - *; /- * '/. V go 17 o ' i. \ 1? - u2 '. *' | \ .19 la M A. A s k the q u e s t i o n - - / : ,/ ' Q Do w a nee d to establish it a g a i n / i)r.'Roush, that 1 this study/was for the purpose of determining f a t h e r ex- l4 kVTi,' . ,'-`-*-,2-0'v ' 21 . " p o a u r a .to TCDD causes these problems?.. Do .we need-to estab** 1 'j " .- .* ' ' " ' 4y j^ lr rr t'*'W * s * i' r1 - ,,* j fc > t i s h that; agkin^.D'r^'.Apush? h ' " ' \ { r' .*;;/*/ // / ^ '' 22,'' . -v, ;r* ' ' A _ No, ^Sir. '."v ^ .. = \t ..,^ , L \ \ 1j -.// _;^ . 23 '- ' T - ` ,*t !'V,\L-T.i' - '`- ' ' - Q All fright* No w ;> Doctor, t :the":statemant :hare that _ '* !;> v!'*i ^ ' `,V'' ' ' - . 24' this was then to test whether or not any relationship existed * , - _ 1`> & } ' ** mV' vi r 0 f *v *, 1. 1.` ^ .t "/ f , .t w j*., , ' * ' '' , T 1 , -, r. V. . \. ' ' 33 ^ r ' 1, 1' 1 ' A. ' rJ ,, r / .-r \ : " . r , t- r , ` - -* Z . * ., - ` . , '- 1. 1 ; b e tw e e n p o t e n t ia l TCDD e x p o su re an d p r o p o r t io n a l m o r t a lit y / ' r; j 2 ) r- ` 3 yo u c a n ' t do t h a t , . i f h e p e o p le , i f t h a t h u n d red and fo u r p e o p le w e r e , i n f a c t ,,e x p o s e d t o TCDD* Y o u s im p ly c a n ' t . v ` _ 4 * do t h a t , 5 > >" i t , s i r ? ca n y o u ,, s ir ? , % It co n fo u n d s t h e w h o le s tu d y , />' A / . * ' - v' L` ' - / :'A' d o e sn 't " 'j` 6 , - A W hat hund red and fo u r?, 7A A ' Q; The h u n d re d , and, "fo u r t h a t w ere c o n s id e re d n o n -ex p o se d 8 v a c c o r d in g t o t h i s P r e s s R e l e a s e * , / . . , '/A ,. / r- ' -9 " . / V ' / ' A X s e e . " R i g h t , ^ : A : V : ' * io. Q : I f a p a r t o f ,t h a t group w a s, in f a c t , exp o sed to 11 L TCDD, yo u c a n 't t e l l th e n w h e th e r o r .n o t TCDD d id o r d id n o t 12 : c a u s e t h e i r p r o b l e m s , c a n y o u , s i r ? 13 ^ ' . A A ' N o t f o r ' t h o s e 1' f o u r * ^ _ A. t A w t^ 14' j / * Q N ot! f o r t h e s e n i n e / s i r . A l l o f t h e s e i n e , , s i r , -v FORM IL 24 B ***,b *Ot' rr 15 . / w o r e i n t h e n o n - e x p o s e d o n e h u n d r e d a n d f o u r , a n d t h e r e m a y 16/ ` ' h a v e b e e n m or th a n t h a t b e c a u se o u r s t u d ie s o n ly w en t to BAYONNE. N.J. 'oO O 3o 17 t h e c a n c e r g ro u p * T h e r e m a y ,h a v e b e e n d e a th s fro m h e a r t o / . izj 1 I<e . * -. V*<3' '*." ;* /f ,,y 19*J - 20 4r 21 , A t t a c k , o r d e a th s from o th e r re a so n s in p e o p le t h a t w e re * ,y. e x* p o se - d -< t o TCD D *: ', * , But we fe lt, j - j * j it 1* s u ffic -> -.*4 ' i e " n ,t^4 ^s iMm-.\1py'" ly to i p o in t ". 4r** but th at you m is s e d h a l f nof .?Vv- i?j: !; '/ - / / Vi j t h' i ef '/. r :c' X ni ,rc er /d v / k e' a th ^ s , at. th is tim e , s i r . : S o w e d o n ' t know vhow im ny v o f t h a t h u n d re d a n d f o u r 22 ' 23 w e re , in f a c t , e x p o se d .to TCD D ; A n d n e it h e r do y o u , /d o , y o u , /r. * 1 * i. - j ,t i* r y ;vf. ^.J`Abhr/1?^" v-J/ /' 'V , * a' [s' s}1/'> r ^J ' "J ' ; '':i' ' * iw . R o u e h r . : ^ ' " ' . - . ^ 24 I A JA / ^ r M J R1 . H EIN EM AN : ^ T' :A l<* "e t /m e'i A* ' o b je c t i>rtrwo" th e sp e e ch o f. 1 34 1 7 -Counsel as not being related to the question, ask, that it be ;,2 ' V striken, ask that.the jury be. instructed to disregard it. , 3 THE COURT:* Objection is overruled. . 4/ ^ i Q (By M r . Carr) Neither do y o u d o y o u , Dr. Roush, 5 know: how many of these hundred and. four, had been exposed to 6 . * TCDD? / / / *'' J* ' '* r, +' " * ; . 11 p- 1 7 . 1 -A No,' sir. r' /' ... r7.- j-^ `\ u1 r 1* ,, -* . S '* /; . Vn 1 - `LJ y . *- r ,/ v v " ^ ; ** A ; 1 '8- IQ And, Doctor,-if you d o n 11 know how. many h a d been 9; ; exposed to TCDD, then you cannot;test Whether or not a 10 ` relationship exists between TCDD exposure and mortality,* . n . can you, sir? -/', v./Zv.. v 1V ^ .-:\r/ - * 12 . A You can do the-study we did. * 13 .Q Doctor, would'you answer the question that T asked., .14" . you? 1S;7 16 17 r M R , H E I N E M A N .Objaction, your H o n o r . Ha Just did * * ` ' ,7N ^ , x - A vp L* ' " , L V - ' 11 THE/COURT: -Overruled, t He did not* / ' " ' 7. " * *r . t THE WITNESS: Would you repeat that for me. ^ 18 J ,` 1 * jr k ,^ 19 (At this timef,*,t;h'ie,fypre-,,/v*i'o>usf '- 'qZuestion was read back > r.. ' 20 by the. court reporter.) , 1; \ '* --''- V , - - v*.U c - ^ /-- 21 22 , .f ; THE ?V WITNESS i(f-yes l j-.- -v i> i '.you can-;r.b y ,doing the s t u d y .we 2 3 / did. fr; ;* \i1 iJ " .j*, ' . 71 : - n77 ,a ! . 7 . ` ` ` V.' ' - 24 Q. (By Mr, Carr) ' Doctor, if you don't know how many P.ENCAD CO., BAYONNE.''.N.i. - 0 7 0 0 1 35 i . of these hundred and four were exposed to TCDD, how-on earth can you determine vjhether or not a relationship exists between r- 1 *' ,1 . ;r r 'j 3 Y T C D D exposure'and their deaths? If you d o n 't know whether V , v *A " , t * tM f 4 they were or ware not exposed ,to dioxin, tell me how, you can 5\, do t h a t y \ \ Yyyy /'' ^ 6' (A ^'That's - ' - ' y ', 'V/-- y/ -. ~^'T'-'1 \' ;> : Q ; ,y- > Excuse i 1: -A -r ,y : v.t ; , r~ m e . */Tell'me how you can dp that ^:3 which I 'm V. 8 . asking you/ sir. ^ Y ' 1 ' r _ ,. /_- y y y ;"r 9 A You c a n 't do it well. 1 0 -, -/.A : Q' You ca n 't do,it at all. -/All of those one'hundred n ; and f o ^ decedents m a y h a v e 'been exposed to TCDD, If you v 12 ' d o n 't know whether they were or not, how can you tell whether l^L or; not their death had *a n y .relationship to. TCDD exposure if - 14 you don't know, Dr. Roush?' . is: f . A You,can't y c a n y o u , sir? - .* ,, ^:- ;y ;;y - ^ / '16: -y 17 *. '"''A/ l;Nbt absolutely.' ; y '/ " y Q ; Not ;in any fashion. ` If you don't know whether I've 18 been exposed to. dioxin,, and I died from a sarcoma/ you d o n ' t : 19 ; rfcdow whether that dioxin!:had anything to- do with,it if you \ y **>"i - - . v. r/r" ,W,,* vV'; ;Yy ; /.. \ I \ J t l r n . ,V1--7 - v% * Y.- k ;ilJ .^ ,. 20 , d o n 't luiow. that I 've been exposed, do you, sir? v It could > 21: have -caused it; and i t fcould. hot have;caused it; ' You simply 22' d o n 't know, If you don't know.my medical history, my exposure 23 . history, is n 't that correct, sir? 24. . A- One\measure of exposure history-- p E N G io C O .,, BAYONNE. N.J; OTOOI 36 1 ' .Q Excuse me, sir." If you don!t know whether or not . 2 . "I 'have been exposed to, *dioxin, h o w ;can you say .whether a 3 -relationship exists or does not exist between my cancer and r- \ ` ^ k. " t 4 - the dioxin? ; ", y. : v 1. , 5-' * A - I .can't on you. V; 6 " Q And you can't, oh any of these one hundred and four " 1 ' .can you,. sir? '/.V. vv *8 . A I don't knpw;how many-r ,r. ' 9 Q ; Hy question is i f ;you d o n 't know^ the exposure history 10 of these one hundred and four,",if .you .don't know w h e t h e r ' - II 1they have or have, not .been exposed to dioxin you cannot then r -12 .tr1e' ll' .wh^ e' ther or not a_ -relati" o* nship exists betwee, jPn, their 13' 3 death by cancer and the dioxin, can you, s i r ? J : . i 14 . '* A" rNot,accurately; 15' Q Well, can you in any fashion, If you do n 't know, , 16 , ; sir? You used1the word; ''accurately." If there's, a hundred^ J 17-' and four.,names up'there, and you see that, they all .died from 18 J 19 *' ,cancer,- .'-- and. '. t<h"e/r e 's 'V n,oV,,th:>'il\ ng ta tell^you^whether- those iJr hundred ; - r,tr ,- ; `.i; i, v: ,* . . , r1 and four were or were not'exposed, to dioxin, can you make 20/ any v'/- stat - em ent , Lahy.j\-vs,tatemeritf',},^a\ t-Jia-ill\',`r \ asj to whether -J-.. - '*" or not ' ' 21 : their deaths were, related to dioxin? 22'V, 23 24- A - Most- of i:Kose^'.l. \J * *V i >' ./ ;/ .y/ w cal Q i Can you * m a** k j e :wyan,, y ^.statement r -V \' "' ,, that.,1 gave you, l)r. Roush?; at /1' r all * i n * t - hie*r:*hyp/othec' !-- BAYONNE. N.J. '0 7 0 0 2 FORM' 1L 2 4 B 1 1 . A -fot absolutely./J f v- 2 y- . \Q ' Not in any way .. Not absolutely, not in any fashion "L^ ' * -' " * - f' : r- - 3 .at all. If you don't have the facts, you can't make the -H connection, can y o u , s i r ? . y "7 *,r" t, 5J ?":, ' ' 6 , ;: ;A ~ We don't ^h a " *->* ' i> have the facts. * L- j' i' -- * / - 1 v m - ' '` `, v->> v ' 1' -:.ya4,'7. v ,, ,,v * 1 1 * ; ' i *- > ' Q Excus m e , If you d o n 't . I 'm giving you hypo- 7 ^ ; thetical. if you doh 't have the fact s ,Vyou can 't make ther; ' 8;V c connection, can you,, air?, y , ^ V. -y ; ` '' -//; 9' , 7 *'r ' A : ;Jiou cannot- '7i\ 7 "' 7 : ,v :^ 7 '\`, w 77,. v * 'O'- 10 l ` 7 - ; 7 7 - Q But you fdo have the facts as to these nine ;. 3ir? ;'i^" ';ii''-' :J -r . i ' : ; 11 <'V;`V -A- : 'Yes/sir.; 1 *-. n - -, "T1. 3 -"j'' ;[ 'J7 7 J -fe '" ' - 1. ''*-ry -y * r i' I- % "` ' \ ' .j7y V^ ^ .. - -' . >. v - *" j ' - 1 , r V i i < . . ' ! I * , , , r 1 -v . J . .. . ' '. r , 12 :: 4' ^ .o. , Q .:;And the f a c t s a r a t h a t these nine wer exposed to ; 13-' ' `: dioxin, weren 't- they ;' ir? , ; j ;;u;;T'; 14;; 15 'v .'-;A-'' *Yee-, 'sir;: r' ;' .r^ ^ : v- v'7v` . :/ ; ^ . ,,Q - And they died from .cancer, didn't they, sir? v 16 ;,-v* .;A,' *.Yesr sir/'., J- ; ^ l.V* 17 , j> Q ; But ;they.-were not included in ;the deathhsslIilested by 18' V '^ ,.r . 1-, "y . ' i'.tr L- */\i. Zack-Gaffcy-Suskind, >'or:;ZackrGaf^ v, ' '/ died,from ; - v ' 19 exposure to T C D D ,(were: they ,/ sir?, ;; r ; ;> i> , u Z 20 "'vj " "A. ` Thatch- r i g h t ; r%' v V ' M : : / - - v ? ' \ ' 21 - . -. < ; Q, ;rD'io'ictori,A \ t' he '(!, ^;sta^t. i`^`aenti^;in1V;'thv.er0 ne r xt -' ' p - a rag ; raph '" ' -ti.hen', 22; ; ' 11 ;; ? ,/ ;` - - - " s i r , ''specifically, cancer deaths among 2,4,5-? workers ^ 23;; ' r, ;(nine observed versus 10.94 expected) ware found to:be lower 24 ^ than in thavnon-exposed group (twenty-five observed "versus  4; 38 l 20.43 expected)." Isn't, that correct, air? 2y .A Yes, sir. 3 Q ; . Now, DoctorV it you take the nine unexposed and ` 4, subtract them from the twenty-five observed-- -' ,5 .-.'J ,,A ' Yes, s i r . '- ' -< , / * . \ ~' ~ 1_ j 6 Q --you would then get sixteen deaths, wouldn't you, 7 ' sir? 8 A; 'Yes. ' 9 > Q As opposed to twenty expected? 10 A Yes. :If y o u 'can do that. .11j 0 Well; you know these n i n e w e r e exposed to dioxin, 12 . 13 14 don't you, sir? ,- ' - A . - YYe('r-sr;;',r .LF':,Bi u-Iit.'t..h*aI1t-"iw"o'*ul-.l:d3;,ric.hang;e?rV- Q They' re .c a l i e d h e r e -- '- : ' ` -- . - ' *V 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 ,` 23 24 - . ' 'J' '1MR1.i- IIiEI^NEiIi^~A\N`: ::1 O b J a c t i o n ,yyour '^ Honor. Let the man r 'j j' ~j f > J, J t " / . * "i ' finish.r Can we let the man finish'a n answer before he's Interrupted? \/r ^ :' *// + \'- . - ';ViHE,.,WlJE8Sr .Thaser- . THE COURT:. I think,the question was answered. ** * r -V 1 1,, ^ Whether they were exposed, was the .question. You may^ con tinue, Mr; Carr. .^ r. " , :Q; . (By Mr. Carr) And they w e r e rput, however;,, in the nonrexposed group, weren't t h e y sir? v ' A Y e s . : 'V- j'v' ", " PENGAD CO..' BAYONNE. N,J, I Q All right. Now, Doctor, this Press Release also 2 refers to the fact that there is a third study--on the last 3 page,, sir,-- that there is a third study taking place under 4 the auspices of Monsanto; isn't that correct, sir? 5 A Yes. 6 Q And that's the so called morbidity study? 7 A Yes, sir. 8 Q And, Doctor, that morbidity study was undertaken 9 by Dr. Suskind, and I think we've established prior to our 10 recess and the vacation that that was paid for by Monsanto; 11 isn't that correct, sir? 12 A MXOSH insists that they paid.for It as well. 13 Q . Yes, I understand. X think webe gone all through 14 that. This was a Monsanto .financed.study, was it not, sir? ;. - t `,,i j t 15 A ` No. - 16 Q Sir?, , . ; <^ r' > nV 17 A It was a j o i n t - - . 18 Q Well, joint. It was paid for, at least Dr. Suskind 19 and all of his expenses, I think we've been all through that, 20 I don't need to report It--repeat it, was paid for in greater 21 part by Monsanto, wasn't it? 22 A, We didn't pay for their time. 23 Q Sir? 24 A We didn't pay for their time. 1 Q Doctor, you paid for their examinations, for the 2 use of the laboratory, for the regular fees that they 3 charged for those kind of examinations? 4 A Yes, sir. 5 Q Now, those fees include a component for doctors 6 time, don't they, sir? 7 A Part of it, yes. 8 Q All right. Now, Doctor, this third study, we've 9 got two studies thus far. that we've discussed, the Zack- 10 Suekind study and the Zack-Gaffey study, 11 A Right. 12 Q And we'veu examined in detail some of the discrep 13 ancies in that study. Nov, this last study that just came 14 out, that was published again-.-not again, but it was publish 15 ed in the spring of 1984, wasn't it, sir? ( * * /. .. ,` \ * . v 4 *\ j 16 A Yes, sir. 17 Q And it again is a study, along with these other 18 two, that Monsanto has used and will use to suggest to the 19 world at large that dioxin is not bad stuff, that it doesn't 20 cause cancer, it doesn?t cause a lot of other problems; 21 isn't that right, sir? 22 MR. HEXNEMANs let m e object to the form of the 23 question, of the suggestion that dioxin is not "bad stuff." 24 1 don't think there's ever been-- 1 HR, CARR: Let me reform the question, 2 THE COHRTs The objection is sustained. You may ,3 rephrase it. 4 Q (By Mr. Carr) You used that study as you have 5 already used the other two studies to support Monsanto's 6 position that dioxin does nothing more than cause chlor&cne 7 which is something like teenage adolescent acne; i s n 't 8 that correct sir? 9 A Those were the findings. 10 Q Sir? 11 A Those were the ' * k ' * ** *'r t f " i ndings * " s' o*f, Suokind. 1 12 Q My question.s i r could you respond to my question 13 first sir. * '"i r 14 A Would you read that for me. 15 16 (The-previous question was read back by the 17 court reporter.) 18 19 THE WITNESS! Yes. 20 Q (By Mr. Carr) Now, Doctor the--would you mark 21 this exhibit. 22 23 (Plaintiff's exhibit 1467 was marked for 24 identification by the court reporter.) ] Q (By Mr, Carr) I'll hand you w h a t 's been marked 2 Plaintiff's exhibit 1467, and ask you if that is not a copy 3 of the Suskind so. called health or morbidity study published 4 in 1984 in The Journal of the American Medical Association? 5 A Y e s , sir, 6 Q "Hew, for background of this study the population T tint was studied here was actually three hundred and sixty- 8 seven people; correct, sir? 9 A Yea * 10 Q There were two hundred and four in an exposed group . ,, 5- ^ > ,r * j , ,f 11 and a hundred and sixty-three, in.a hot exposed group. 12 A I don't have that, but that's supposed to be right, 13 Q Well, if you look--did I offer this exhibit, your 14 Honor? .>j , J i v-- 'A ' ' - 15 THE COURT: Ho, you haven't. 16 ' MR, CARR: X offer this exhibit into evidence. 17 THE COURT: Any.objection? 18 MR, HEXNBMAN: One moment, your Honor. 19 THE COURT: Sure. 20 M R , .HEINEMAN: We have no objection, your Honor, 21 THE COURT: All right. It's admitted without 22 objection. Thank you. J r> 23 Q (By Mr, Carr) If you look in the first part of It, 24 this abstract, it sets out the two coharts, the two hundred 1 and four exposed and the hundred and sixty-three unexposed. 2 A Yes. 3 Q Actually there were four hundred and thirty-six 4 people that were examined, but for one reason or another 5 the study was ultimately reduced to three hundred and sixty- 6 seven. 7- A Right * 8 Q Now, as- further background of this study, the body, 9 the group of workers that were involved Included retired > -' H- 1% 10 workers, as well as currently employed workers who were 11 invited to participate from lists furnished and from data ri ' (* '* . ^* 12 furnished by Monsanto. 13 A Ys> sir. r ` ,- % \ ki *- ^ 14 Q And Monsanto Has--has an element of control that it 15 can exercise in any study of this kind, if it wished to do so 16 it could give the examiners and investigators a list of 17 people telling them that these people were unexposed when, 18 in fact, the people could be exposed, could have been exposed. 19 We know that they can do that, can't they, sir? 20 A They could, yes.- 21 Q Yea. And of course, we've seen what--now, how much 22 did Judith Zack have to do with creating the lists of exposed . 23 and unexposed people? 24 A I think it was Jan Young who did this. 1 and four exposad and the hundred and sixty-three unexposad. 2 A Yes 3 Q Actually there were four hundred and thirty-six 4 people that ware examined but for one reason or another 5 the study was ultimately reduced to three hundred and sixty- 6 seven 7 A Kight* 8 Q How, as further background of this study, the body, 9 the group of workers that were involved included retired 10 workers, as wall as currently employed workers who were 11 invited to participate from lists furnished and from data 12 furnished by Monsanto, ' \ 13 A Yes, sir. 14 Q And Monsanto has--has an clement of control that it 15 can exercise in any study of this kind. If it wished to do so 16 It could give the examiners and investigators a list of 17 people telling them that these people were unaxposad when, 18 in fact, the people could be exposed, could have been exposed. 19 Me know that they can do that, c a n 't they, sir? 20 A They could, yes, 21 Q Yes, And of course, we've seen wh a t -- now, ho w much 22 did Judith Zack have to do with creating the lists of exposed 23 and unexposed people? 24 A 1 think it was Jan Young who did this. I Q My question, is how much did Judith Zack have to do 2 with it, 3 A I d o n 't think anything, 4 Q All right. Jan Young was her replacement? 5 A Not her replacement. But she took over part of her 6 job. 7 Q All right. She worked in the same department and 8 did some of the same functions? 9 A Yes-, sir / ' \ `1 10 Q And having access to those records, and all of these 11 people were invited .to participate, w e r e n 't they, sir? 12 A Yes, sir. 13 Q Having access*to medical records, it is certainly 14 possible that you could not invite people that had serious 15 problems, couldn't you, sir? 16 A Y e s . 17 Q If I knew--for instance, if I knew that John Jonas 18 had reported to the company physician that he had a skin 19 cancer and had retired, and had moved to Florida, or some 20 place like that, with his skin cancer, if I wanted to affect 21 the outcome of this study, I could fail to tell by accident 22 or by deliberate intent, I could fail to tell the investiga 23 tor, I could fail to give them the name of John Jones, 24 couldn't I, sir? 1 A Yes. 2 Q And I could thereby affect the results of the study 3 couldn't 1, sir? 4 A Yes * 5 ' Q And X could do that not just one time but a dozen 6 times, couldn't I, sir, or a hundred times, couldn't I, sir? 7 A Yes . But Jan Young w o u l d n 't do t h a t . 8 Q Excuse, me, Dr. .Roush. And'thereby X could-- 9 MR. HEINEMAN; I. beg your pardon. Excuse me. You 10 don't want to hear the rest of his answer? 11 MR*. CARR:' No, I don't. 12 MR. HEINEMAN: 1 object,, your Honor. 13 MR. CARR: No, because he responded to m y question. 14 THE COURT: Objection is overruled, 15 Q (By Mr. Carr) And I could thereby influence the 16 outcome of the study, couldn't I, sir? 17 A Y e s . 18 Q Now, and it means, therefore, that the integrity 19 or the honesty of the parson supplying the raw data, supply 20 ing the cohart, if you will, supplying the names of the 21 workers who have these various problems, that that becomes 22 an important factor in any study like this, doesn't it, sir? 23 A I'm not sure how much It would influence it. 24 Q Well, Dr, Roush, if I knew, if I'm Monsanto, and X 1 know that I've got one hundred employees who have got cancer 2 in, one form or another, and I'm Interested In seeing a favor-* 3 able outcome of this investigation, and I just supply them 4 to Dr. Suskind, the names of fifty, I don't supply the names 5 of the hundred. I just supply the names of the fifty. Dr. 6 Suskind would never be the wiser, would he, sir? 7 HR, HEtNEMAN: "* 4 ' Objec*t 't|oJ t h*ei* '(f o r m of the question. ', 8 It's asking a hypothetical based not on any facts in evidence. 9 THE COURT: Objection is. overruled. 10 THE'WI T N E S S :- It1could. ; 11 Q (By Mr. Carr) Y e s . , And that could radically 12 influence or affect the results of the investigation, couldn't 13 it, sir? 14 A If there was a significant number that you took out, IS yes. 16 Q Well, if I took out-*if I had a hundred cancers and 17 I took out fifty, that's significant. Just as if I had 18 eighteen cancers and I take out nine, that's significant, 19 isn't it, sir? 20 A I'm not sure that's significant. 21 Q You're not sure that half of the cancers are not 22 significant, fifty percent of the total cancers are not 23 significant? What becomes significant if fifty percent 24 isn't significant, Doctor? - Seventy-five percent? Ninety 47 1 i* > . ... .-2 '" r ' .3 percent:?. What Is the cut off figure of significant if half isn't significant? >,, j l ': ' 4 ^ t Lf* . A But when you change-- "J-. . ^1- j, . .,, ' ^ 1 ; '4* 1Q What' becomes significant, Doctor, if half isn't ` ,5 significant? `\ 6 ' , 7'. `8 j * 9, 10 ; II A "I.trs\not half , '-' f .'-_7''- -^ Q Wine ;1 a half/;of^elglenV/isn't :'8lr?-\ r* , J' ; ^ 7 7 7o'v-v v v O V . -7. : ' , -A 7; Yes.,; '-7 - ' : . ." . ,, - ' - 7' Q There were eighteen cancers, weren't there? - ; 7 7- v ' :' deaths, w e r a n 1t t h e r e ,,,air? . '1 t- ; ' ;'v ; ^ 'V A '' Out. of *ninety, > ; Cancer 12 Q There were eighteen deaths, weren't there, sir? 13 . : . ' Ys. '7 V / . 7 ; 14 15r 16 Q_ And only nine were reported upon, weren't - ` r`- - -r. ' . - ~ ^^ J *' " 1 ,' ' . r .A i.Yes. "' i. r'1 `* ` * , / /.' ^, t j /'*';/ ` ` 'i " they, lr ln sir? Q:.. Doctor, back to m hypothesis, is fifty percent . ^ " 17 18 significant? > ' - / ; -Yes. ` .* r: '. v ' ` ` -7- : " - r' ; *9 20 . 21 '22 23 - 24 J; 7 Yes^ `r '7.. / -7' ' / / 7 , ; THE COURT ; Is this a good point for a short break? 7 M U CARR: Yes, your; Honor." THE COURT: /Okay, We'll take;.a short break at this time. Ladies and gentlemen, X would remind you that you are not to discuss this matter among yourselves, with anyone / FORM outside the jury panel, or as of yet form.any opinions orconclusions about the;-matters on trial, The Court is in recess * , (The following.'proceedings-were held-In the- '' ,/ - rV< ' O % . / ' ,' * -J presence and .hearing of the:jury;) \- .;, 1<*', * ' THE .COURT; i" bench for a minute? Gentlemen, can I. see you up at. the . (A discussion was, held at t he1bench o f f ,the record and out of the hearing of the Jury:) '/ : , o.. *; ' 1 v- ^ , - ' - 'r ; (The following proceedings were held iir the . . presence hearing of the jury:) \- r. THE, COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, two things 1 want i * /*. j ,1 j '. , r. % to announce before we go^ back into, the testimony,, ,First of all, today >we will end at three o'clock instead of four . o'clock; and secondly, on July 19 we will not have court. " * 1, 1 nr ' ' r So put that down, if you would, on your records, Okay, Mr. *f . r. . Carr, you may proceed./;,.? ./ .v ;,. / *^ . i ** 1 Q (By Mr. Carr) Dr. Roush, that last report, exhibit 2 1467, last study, rather, is also important, has been used 3 already by Monsanto to support the position that you have 4 taken relative to the health effects of TCDD on those people 5 who had exposure; isn't that correct, sir? ' ^* r -, 6 A Yes, sir. 7 Q And, Doctor,'the very.first table in that report,. 8 Table number 1, deals with, among other things, cancer, that " , i 9 Is those of the workers who have nad a history of cancer, 10 skin cancer and all other types of cancers, isn't that 11 correct, among other things? 12 A Yes. 13 Q And Dr. Suskind, of course, got that from medical 14 records and from those things that had been reported to 15 h e and his investigators by the w o rkers, the names of whom 16 had been given to Dr, Suskind by Monsanto; isn't that correct, 17 sir? . 18 A Yes, sir. 19 MR. CARR: Could you mark this, the group exhibit, 20 Plaintiff's group exhibit 1468, 21 22 (Plaintiff's group exhibit 1468 was marked for 23 identification by the court reporter.) 24 . ' Q. '''`(By-Mr. Carr). .Doctor, I 'll hand you what's b e e n J marked Plaintiff's group exhibit 1 4 6 8 / which has been re- 1 '? i F - > ^ -_ J * r , presented to us to b a ;the results of the. Suskind interviews of workers who have ,r . ' '/./'* you; some *pertinent1, .- -r. ; :. ':V data relative to thos "cancers, i-and to d o t h a t I 'd like to > *J'/ -y ~~ ' '-o!> 'ti--.* ' \ v * - *: ... further establish some basis for that. i V .' * ' ~r \r ` : Vr" MR.i CARR: \jWpuld;;y ^ exhibit; number-- . ^ '.'(Flalntlff 'a;-.exhibits 1469 and 470 were marked for identification by th-court reporter.) Q (By Hr. Carr). Doctor, I 'll n o w hand you Plaintiff's exhibit_1469, which is; a-letter -to some other of your j attorneys;to Dr.--from Dr. Suskind, and 1470 which Is. one of " J' , ." - * 1l I fm -, . '1 ' J- x' * t h e ,attachments to that letter which-we'll use to further y, J y ' ` ; Identify these people. -v .-1 '' v -` , 'v , . MR. CARR: . .1 your Honor; ' I offer t h e s e .exhibits at this time/ * 1 ..- 'j . - j v -, 'v :.,: . ;L .r :. r ' , r * .THE QOURTi ;All three? - MR. -CARR: ; Yes, your,Honor; . ^/ . M R . .HEINEMAN:, Could I have an explanation., again r " ^ -v- - r . * of.'What 1468 purports to.be? - >' MR. CARR: 1468 are the Suskind records'dealing L,*. I S':' w 51 r^ -1VA 2' | with those people who;reported to have cancer, ,r ' ' > 1 *r 4 _* THE COURTt: Do y o u have any objections to atiy of / 3 the three? ; _ '-/' V 1 V - . -, VTf A ^ ^ V ' ' 4 ' :*' ' , 'MR';* IffilN^EM'**A.Ns"';:-'"'''.'`iYo*'urVH, on' o' r- ^ for\ the - re'cor'd,,, ' rw' e 'd ,? ,'5' ' like to object to these.exhibits on-the basis of hearsay, >y ` v ' i"1- ?" / ^` X / "V ' 1 ` .6 on the basis* of lack :of .foundation^ and we obviously have. 7 , no idea--! certainly .as I*m sitting here have no idea who 8 says these are the people that reported cancer. Obviously , J 9 * that i s ,something that Mr, Carr has made a determination of, 10 ;That/s'^ not;.,,a> fact in th cse, .1 d o n Tt think i t 's an .. 11 . adequate foundation for-the admission of these, Exhibits, for ' 12 13 14 , that purpose, ' ' X '' " -- -, ' X -X ^ V* ' ' -tr - "* TH COURT :l-,Y o u .are obj ecting to all three j is -r r , Tr - i " i: 'k-:that.eorret? . V: ; *;, . X .;x ^ 15 ` X MR. HEINEMAN; I'm objecting t o a l l three,, y e a f sir, ,, L- J - 1 y L '> ' t , "i " J ,, t J " ' I- 'v , J J *t 'a H^ i r 16 v '-: 'MR., CARR':` Your Honor,, the offer is not,for the '17 J 18 purpose of my assertion that, these are what have been re- - K V1 .V 1 ' 1- d - 1" t r- potted to; have cancer. That,will be established by the . 19. records themselves. f These are the records of the morbidity ---2/0 study furnished to us by' Monsanto relating to the workers ,21 atudy .investigated by Dr,1 SusklndV; We. will establish "22 whether these.people do or do not have cancer, s X examine 23 ' the Doctor, ^ ^ ;>r V ^ 24 M R , HEINEMAH :';I .think, your H o n o r , that these are SAVONNE, N.J. ,07 0 0 1 r O R * IL 2A B 52 ^ i \ ,; 1 /exhibits that were made available to us by Dr. Suskind, and 2,, hints turned over t o r l i \ Carr pursuant to an order of this 3 Court requiring:; Dr.f Suskind;to} turn -them o v e r . ;t think, 4 therefore. I still maintain the same objection. 5 6 -- ' 1 *T f f l S r C O U M ^ to-admit all three over objection. I think they are admissible. So 1468 group ''-c 1' ,hV F4. ?,rf i i 1 A'HO' '/ :/ 5r'i *i'' r -. `1 .' /exhibit, 1469"and .1470 are all admitted over objection; * 8: Q /(By -Mr. Carr) Doctor, I intend to go through these 9 . records that you h a v e w i t h y o u . Have you ever seen these.: 10 MV-- .records/before, sir? ;; .A-' : Ho, sir.'. - /*-* /J ' f, ;; L;>'; * '/.,/ \ ^ ' 12 * Q Then 1 could help you to identify these records. 13 ' 'There are numbers on them ,,that give the identities/of the 14 different people, and you.can refer to the records that 1 15 have given you. For instance, the' first record y o u 'll see 16 has a number 407 in the right-hand corner of-it . , 17 - / : *'/ A' Yes, sir. ^ *. ''j./ 1\ / 18 19 20 21 22,:; 23 24 . Q If iyou look to ekhibit:1470, at number 4 0 7 / w h a t 's called new i.d. number, y o u 11 see the new i .d . number is. 1- >' ;p /j t * *,,' -"*" 407 is Paul .T. Bricker. ` Do you see that, air? - -A . Yes . ' " Q ;A11 right.-: Arid by using these documents iri that . '* , * jj ; ~ J"* * w, : fashion we can determine the name of the people involved. ", '; ** v , r " All right?; ;; ' V / V. \ . - J . t X'" - ^f ' i z * " 4m k 53 1 'V2 A ,But tKere k.no.;name o n t h e / S u s k i n a form,here. . it',/ \-.-ii'. . - : Q -. That is correct.1 . There is. no naiae on it.,, There " >' .3 4" 5X . isi only rtheV'identification :number. f:/; - ^x , i J J* * V `f *' '* " ' *k* I-4 1 r* A' That 407 is. the only identification? ' _ *,. ,*. ",' ,4/'~i,"i ' j f V 1;*i> iS ' >, 1,,_1'' * , ,': -, . Q - That" s correct'. And the first one listed there, 6.. i -r jtn iL.V .7 `' '> 1 -8 '; th first on the stack, is Brickerj right? .* Dl o 'x c t o r/ P?l ` t '(i '^ l^, v, 'v,Pa - -A , Ys, siri,* L'* - p .J j . ^ Do you see that* 7 , 1f / . . i- -I;*'* ;*- , "- T, ;--9- Q \T;D. number 4 0 7 . T *d like n o w for you to go to the, 10 history of Bricker,, and "-.first of all tell me whether or not-- .l : .I'lligive, y o u Jthe. assistance, of course, as t o :whether or 12 .. not he has a history of being exposed r un exposed. " 13 - A I 'm sorry? - I didn't get the question. _ : H 1. 15- Q , I 'd like for you to go. to his history'records-^. - 'A Kight-,' i- 16 17 , -, Q ' --and determine ryou. would, whether or not he has ,a history of being, exposed .or a history of being unexposed - I8 ` to TCDD. A ,^ \ t; 9 : '"'20 1 Ji 21 32 * "- ' r A 1 .From .the medical history? -.T* '; s -. "*- * 'f * * ' *,, ' , r , ii - I >, '' ^ ' r y' S * , +l ^ -a '. j ' j Q Yes/ From- the history you have in your hands,- sir, -i V .''i , <t /, + .K . . ' pu % p 1 " 11, ,- J i i . - ^ / 'a , - - * 1. - '- ` ^. . :v A v^ "Q You get that from the occupational .histry ., - \* -i- . h , r* . d**'F */^ ^ fc' `* * ' J , 1 _ ' '' r * ' Doctor, the occupational history is the second page-- 23;. w: . t ,Ar Yes'/ sirv 7 `1-24 ' ` q --of. this, document . > -' ; / BAYONNE., N.J 1 A ' Yas, sir. 2 Q Would, you.look at that, sir? - 'j '` 3 A The second page? 4 Q Yes, sir. ' 5 A All right. 6 Q And tell me whether or not you gat from that a 7 history that he is expoGad or unexposed to one of the 8 departments where TCDD could be a contaminant. 9 MR. HEINEMAN: Your Honor, I 'll object to this 10 as calling for sheer speculation and conclusion on the 11 part of this witness. This witness didn't prepare these 12 ' documents. H e 's never seen them before. They were done 13 by Dr, Suskind, Dr. Suskind is the one that took the 14 occupational histories. How in the world can this man say IS whether or not this fellow was exposed according to this 16 document, which h e 's never seen before? Sheerly speculation 17 on his part. 18 MR, CAER: Your Honor, these records are all the 19 records that Dr, Suskind had, occupational records at least, 20 to determine whether-the person was or was not exposed. 21 The study shows that, and I intend to demonstrate. I intend 22 to classify, show what Dr. Suskind has said about these 23 persons in his report, whether they're exposed, whether 24 they have a history of skin cancer, and so on, and demons tral V- y> \, ' i iityi,- <;-6r0 ^ i-" - ;- ^ a Jo 1 ''>r4 .1 2 >.by - the se/ * rVe-c'orVdVs../eVithheir\ the;truth or the v falsity " ` . of Dr* \ ' ' , / , , - ; ' 1 , ^ s y . 5 , r v i \ - . ' * rj r " 1 ^ . ' . j. ~ 1 Siiskind's. cohciusiohsfrora these records, which are the 1*, V/' ' ,* ...V,'/' A ^ * 1 K- V V '' - ' * - V" 3 vv sole ' recordsthat.1Dr;:Suskind .has; .r''. '.* '.l ^ -1 ^ -* 'v~j' g<iven, \ ", , . i, "* * '' ', 4 ; ^- \y;r1y - T*H,E.C O UR T : " Objection v r,-,. r is overruled; .- , . 'a . Y' o u may, / ' ,- ^ 5 ' proceed, Mr..- C a r r * ' .will take your objections as a - < .6 / v.continuing-objection to this line of testimony, to this '- ; rV, -1r V Vrt.- ' _v_ - - " -LV ,i^ . _v . r .. . * 7* *, Vcourse. ofcpiestioningr >' 1. - *8 v .MR. CASRr ;i&d c?uld i have 'another'exhibit number, ;9r ;please,: for the next'exhibit;h . r-- 1 v-' \ : ^ ' 10; 11 / : " \ (Plaintiff1s exhibit -1471 was marked for J 12 ` ; 'v' . ; J.,;:^ J-identification' `by `the-'court reporter.) ^ 1%'vi ; J ; / ;f . ;j 13 ` 'v t v, ; -vt/_ 14 : Q (By Hr . C a r r ) V Doctor p do you re c o g n i z e e x h i b i t . , .v :'vJ-`,j s - ' . - ?`V' ' J j" - r 15 , - 1471 as -a blow-up of Table: 1 that is. in the'Suskind Morbidity 16 'Study?'1' y'1' 7 18 19 -20' 21 ;.' v . A" 'Yds,' s i r \ , \ - ,,**' - ' J' ` V ' r , ^^ ,r ' y'/'- ' ' V r _. y,. t (. ; .v P; / L .Q Y e s f; , And it states ,:its caption is History of - .. "AH r, \ - ^r r ' ' H V , r l /' * - ' t t'r r* **i , rl : ^ t *" c ? *i 4;i" ',4v. ../Medical^Probleins Versus Exposure;Status^and b y `Age "does it n o t; ..>w;.; sir?\, /..\ `{ X ^ ",v., '-v, i>f 1 ,\\ 22- f ' Q ^%And it, of. courseV refefs.to' the.;.fact, as you can / '23 .see it, "that it-refers' t o t h e . i n t erview and the physical' 24 ;/.examination -program, and hat \s- made clear frpm the `report . V-- yyf- J c,i"W^ y _ PENGAD CO*/ BAYONNE,, N-J* 070 0 2 FORM AL 24 B 'r i itself, from the study, itself that Dr. Suskind Interviewed, 2 took occupational histories and medical histories from each * '' 1 x 3 of these persons that participated in this program; Isn't 4 that correct, sir? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Yes. And as far as cancer is concerned, he had two - 7 categories for cancer, skin cancer and cancers of all other 8 sites except skin, doesn't he, sir? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Yes. Now, Bricker has no history from these records 11 of ever having been exposed to the manufacturing process of 12 that-- that is the manufacturing process that would have TCDD; 13 isn't that correct, sir? 14 A X would assume that's right. 15 Q At least so far as you can tell-- 16 A Yes. 17 Q --from the records that you have in front of you. 18 He has no history there of ever having been exposed to any 19 thing that could be called TCDD? 20 A Right* 21 Q And he then, we could put a check under the U on 22 this which stands for unexposed; correct, sir? 23 H R , HEXNEMAN: Objection, your Honor. H e 's asking 24 this witness to comment on whether or not Mr. Bricker was > -- - * * ** +. , , v t!- . * * +' ' , " 'Vj , 57 t> J'j iw/\`'. " ^A 1^-*7,1 f -. . . . v i I.; ^ ?*7'J\: 1 actually exposed-- .r f -Vr i ii ,-f ?!J.w ; ` '' i' '- ' ' 2 MR. C A R R : No, I 'm asking whether or not .this , 3 record reveals exposure or a possibility of exposure or 4 xmexposure. This record# sir. / 5 ' .MRo HEINEMANr How can one-- your Honor, m y objection 6 ` goes; to the fact how can one tell either way whether or. not 7 'this man was exposed based upon this second page? . r 1 (. r ' 'i '* , ,, -* 8 THE COURT: That objection has already been made as> 9 to the use of this . 1 told you that it would be 'a continuing 10 objection# and the objection is overruled again. You may 1 1 ,. proceed, Mr i 'Carr ^ PEN GAD CO.. BAYONNE, N;J. 07002 FOR* IL 24 B 12 MR, CARR: And for the record# your Honor, the 13 statement- that Mr. Hein&man made# I f true as he's made, is J-' f^ 1 ^ *r L ,, 14 extremely injurious t o the Suskind Morbidity Study, I'm , 15 sure he said It without thinking because these records con- - j -1, t t _> .. . . 16 stitute the totality of what Dr; Suskind used to determine-- 17 unless there was a medical history In the medical records 18 that he used-- the totality to determine whether or not the 19 m a n was or was not exposed# and if these records cannot 20 - 21 22, reveal to Dr; Suskind or to this witness# a competent medical \ physician, whether or hot this . *p et rs,o,n was or v" was J hot exposed# * then the entire Suskind study is in jeopardy. Because he 23 classified based upon thesis records all of the three hundred 24 and sixty-seven people that participated in this s t u d y h e . 1s, V- / 'V - /-' \i !' 1 ,,s. \ '- ' i 5S -'-'V O- 'S" fT F1 A t. classified each of* those! persons s: either being exposed or 2. 3 * unexposed based upon these records; - \ V \ HENEMAH; Your: Honor, I 'think* that's- not 4 - ! accurate. I think if ,Mr. Carr were to examine either Dr. 5 ' Suskind's deposition or this witness, he would perhaps learn 6 that Dr. Susklnd conducted interviews, extensive interviews 7 with these people, and my understanding is that1he had--he 8 !had work histories-available to him from the plant, which I 9 'V , believe Mr.varr has. - ; r' / >^ io v > \ M R -/ CARR: Well", we had--these are the records, your , r\ i * \- i/ % * n .Honor, of the interview*; This is th actual interview con- 12 d u c t e d b y Dr, Suskind that Counsel refers to. 13 J THE COURT: Okay.* As .1 said before, th line of. 14: questioning is p r o p e r / I 'm taking it as a continuing bb- ' .' .,, ' S - 1. 1 1 15 - jaction to .the line of question. So the objection has been 16 made, has been ruled upon, and would apply to any and all 17 individuals that Mr; Carr in the course of his questioning BAYONNE. N.J. TOO FORM IL i f B 18 singles out. for consideration in this line of questioning. 19` -Mr. Carr, you may proceed. \ - ` Y, _ > Jw r % 20 Q (By Mr, Carr) ^es. But further for the record, 1 21 ,the vary first page, Dr. :Roush, gives the interviewer number, 22 J does it not? / 23' V- A' Y e s . `r*// :' t `` ; 24 . Q .Number 167 ' r! J / v 1 A Ye$, 2 Q . Bricker? 3 A Eight 4 Q And It gives the date of the interview, doesn't it, 5 air? 6 A Yes * 7 Q And if you look through, It gives medici history, 8 it tells where they were hospitalized, it gives, the physical 9 exam, it gives the lab reports, It gives the brother and 10 sister, it gives smoking background. It la a complete 11 history, it it iiot, Doctor? 12 A Quite complete. 13 Q Yes, And, Doctor, would you now turn for Bricker 14 to the page that has the yellow tab on it, I think I've 15 marked.it for you for yur benefit, to the personal medical 16 history to determine whether or not this person had a history 17 of cancer. And Bricker does.have a history of cancer, 18 doesn't ha, sir? 19 A - Yes, 20 Q As reported by Dr. Suskind or the interviewer for 21 Dr. Suskind, correct,.sir? 22 A Yes, sir. .; 23 Q And we* 11 put a check then in the column for cancer 24 for Bricker. He has--and It's a @lcin cancer, Is it not, sir? A Yes. 2 Q And if you'll now turn to the next one, this group 3 exhibit number 325 is Estep, number 325. And again if you'll 4 look to his history of working at Monsanto on the second 5 page, he worked in the laboratory, in the drafting depart 6 ment, design engineering, and there is nothing there to 7 suggest that he had any exposure; isn't that correct, sir? 8 A I would assume so, but I would check if I were going 9 through this with the plan to make sure what they mean by 10 laboratory. 11 Q You might. But there's no evidence that Dr. Suskind-- 12 there's nothing in his reports to suggest that he did? 13 A Nothing in the report. 14 Q So he went on this record, and again that is an 15 unexposed worker. If you'll turn to the one with the yellow 16 tab, you'll find again that he had a history of a malignant 17 mole removed from his shoulder. So he again has a history 18 of cancer, doesn't he, sir, an unexposed worker with a 19 cancer? 20 A Yes, sir. 21 Q And that would be classified as a skin cancer, 22 wouldn't it, sir? 23 A Yes. 24 Q The next person we have is Runyon. It's number 87. 1 And again, on the second page of his history of working with 2 Monsanto, while he worked in the yard at one time at Monsanto, 3 and he worked as a helper in the Santamer 's Liquid Detergent 4 department. Again, theta's no history there that he had any 5 exposure to any TCDD formation process; would that be a fair 6 statement, Dr Roush? 7 A X would think so. , 8 Q Yes. And looking again to his history, he has a 9 history on the part with the tab on it of again, skin cancer, 10 doesn't he,w sir? 11 A Y e s . \ 12 Q Next one is number 22, which would be Finch. And as 13 far as his history is concerned, he has a history of working 14 in the departments where 2,4,5-T might be made, does he not? 15 A I think, yes. .* t 16 Q But if you'll turn to the history part and you'll 17 find that he.hai-- you'll find that he'had cancer as well, 18 won't you, sir? * v 11 * i* 19 A I'm n o t :there*yet.' , ' ' * ^ 20 Q The part with the yellow tab. 21 A Y e s , 22 Q And it is again a skin cancer? 23 A . Yes. , '. 24 Q But now to'be fair and not to taka advantage, this ? 1 skin cancer was removed in 1967. If you'll turn back to his 2 history you'll find that he worked in the departments where 3 he might be involved in dioxin subsequent to 1967. 4 A Where did you get that? 5 Q On the second page, sir. 6 A Yes. 7 Q You'll see there that 2,4,5,-T, he worked there in 8 1972. The fourth entry on the history. 9 A Yes* 10 Q And where he worked prior to 1972 was as a helper in II the bagging and as an operator in the Drumming of Avadex, . 12 and that's where he worked In '67 at the time he had his 13 malignant mole removed, therefore the mole that he had, or 14 the skin cancer that he had removed in 1967 could not have 15 been caused by exposure to dioxin in 1972, could it, sir? 16 A No, 17 Q And, therefore, he would be properly put in the 18 unexposed.group, wouldn't he, sir, as far as this cancer Is ,19 concerned? 20 A Yes, 21 Q And he was so put by Dr. Suskind as will be revealed 22 later. But I want to demonstrate that while he had this */ 23 cancer, and he was exposed, his exposure was not related to 24 the cancer.. The next one we'll, take will be number 36, which 1 *'-i. 1^ * 63 1 will be Reynolds. And; his number ls 3 6 And if you'll look 2 , at his history on the second page, he was foreman of Janitors 3 starting in i960, and in '39 auto c l a v e ,operator, but in 4 ' 1960 he was a foreman of janitors, and-he circulated through 5 out the plant, in 1974he handled all chemicals. Therefore, 6. ;he would have exposure, would he not, .sir? * , v7* Yes. c. ' ' ' ' S'`" > ' / W O .V 8 Q And as we turn to, the history of cancer-4 L r - ^ 'T ' r 1^ r y , ( 9 - *A 'dO-ryes. ^`' 10 Q Return, to, the, history of cancer, he had a bladder 11 cancer , The next one would be Rogers , number 422. And^if 12 , ,, y o u 'll look at h i e 'history on the second p a g e h e was a 13 shipping foreman. He was /responsible for the transportation 14 r of a l l -raw materials a n d .finished products, responsible for , 15' receiving raw materials and containers, and therefore,\he 16 had-- he would have had a history of exposure, would he not, 17' sir? * y * - / ;'/\ , 1 * V ; . o- 18 A Possible. I 'm not sure. ..O 19 Q Yes. Possible exposure? - 20 , A But-I can't be sure that that's correct. , 21 Q Weil, from the history given to you, you can con 22 clude that he was possibly exposed, if he handled all of his 23 res * pons;ib' le fori "e'maonrres-pi on,s4i''bylOe .for^transportation 4 -\o of all 24 raw materials; and finished .products\and he was a warehouse W;"`V >/'V *'J c S ~C. > ' , l V ^ / vv1; -r : *1 , L*& PENGAO C O,, BAYONNE. N.J. 0 7 0 0 1 FORM 1L 14 B 1 man, a shipping foreman after three years in the warehouse, 2 he certainly would have had an opportunity to b exposed 3 to 2,4,5,-X, would he not, sir? 4 A' It depends if it was in some kind of closed package* 5 It may not be 'J 6 Q Well, it may not be.. 7 A It*s possible. 8 Q Wo one knows for', certain that anyone even working 9 in the department has absolutely touched the stuff. But 10 he has the opportunity for exposure, doesn't he, sir? 11 A X would have to talk to the plant to find out. 12 Q I know you would, to be absolutely certain. But 13 based on this record, sir, that you have in front of you, 14 he has a possibility of exposure, doesn't he, sir? 15 A Yes* 1. 16 Q As you turn to the history that he gave on the first 17 yellow tab, you'll find that he has a recurrent skin cancer, 18 surgery performed a couple of times on his nose, nine times 19 on his back, one time on his right hand, three times on hie 20 left ear, once in the fossa; isn't that correct, sir? 21 A Yes, ' 22 Q And further history in the next tab, he has cancers 23 removed there as described. So he has skin cancer, does ha hT i i* - ' 1 p\ r' / 24 not, sir? 1 Sir? 2 A I'm trying to raad it on--this is a different form 3 than the other. 4 Q Yes. But it clearly says shin cancer, doesn't it, 5 sir? 1 6 A That's on the review of systems and physical exam? 7 Q Ho* The page with the first tab, sir* 8 A I see It. All right. 9 MR. HEINEMN: Will you give us the page number, JO sir? - 11 MR* CARR: Well, they're not numbered, Counsel, so 12 I can't very well giva.lt to. 13 THE WITNESS: Y e s . 14 MR* K E INEMAN: They are here. 15 MR* CARR: They're not on mine. ' 16; MR, HEINEMAN: The one you .gave me have got numbers 17 on them. 18 MR* CARR: Well, this page doesn't have a number, 19 Q (By Mr. Carr) The next one would be 12 8 ;r that is 20 Gorrell* And he has a history that he was a utilities 21 supervisor', starting in 1970, and that he operated the 22 utilities, in. 1967 he was the utilities worker and a staff 23 engineer. And "if he's a utility worker, he was a worker 24 1- _r . j \ ^ ;* that would have gone; throughout the plant, all departments, ' L * j 'J'r ' *1 65 A ' 1 w o u l d h n o t / s i r ? . . -.-v .2 I d o n ' ; t k n o w . N o t n e c e s s a r i l y , ^ 3;:; / / q . ' i i e i i r - ; 4 .k I t ' 8 -- . /'' , -, : : " ' - / ` :. 5 Q r W e ll, th e h is t o r y t h a t you have h e re i s th a t t h is 6 . m an, I f he w as th e su p e p /tso r fo r u t i l i t i e s and o p erated 7 / ; 8 th e u t ilit ie s , to TDDi : h e w as a man, t h a t h a d a p o t e n t ia l f o r e x p o s u re r - - - ' 1: 1 . t . - , 9 7 A ' :/ X ' d o n ' t k n o w t h a t . ; , / - : \ 10 Q W e l l , y o u c a n ^ d e d u c e ; t h a t f r o m t h i s r e c o r d , , c a n y o u Il . h o t , s i r ? / v . - V - ^ V ' * t//' . / 1 12 . ' A , N o ; a i r . ' -J. 13 Q You ca n n o t." ; ^ j. j -J . . . 14' ; A ' N o , s i r . - 'J 15-, , Q W hat does; a u t i l i t y w o rk er do, s i r ? r 16, :*v / - A One who ru n s a pow er p la n t . , " 17 Q . A n d t h e y h a v e p o w e r p l a n t s * i n e v e r y d p a r t a i e n t , d o n ' t .18 ^ J .19 th ey, s ir ? ; / *--'v r A " N o, s i r . One pow er p la n t . J. 7 20 .. Q J Do "t h e y h o t f u r n i s h p o w e r t o e a c h d e p a r t m e n t ? . : r * * b 1 r ., ^> -w 7 " 21 : a, A ' 22 J ' 'v -i ' i ` - J,i v- . Q Doctor?^ 1 '- / - - ^ ' ' : .:' .' ' 23 . 24 ; // - ', , v Yesv s i r . v J> ' -; / ..V v , 7 ; 7.7 * ' Q A n d is n t t h a t th e o n ly w ay th e d e p a rtm e n t ca n .o p e ra te . , -- lrr'r. t 'f'V>* '. * ."' 'v,* r* '1. *>*1*7''' '7.^;1 l /, 7<''t--'` C f j ,'7*' , '- -j , ij .r ; ' / ' BAYO N N E. N .J. 0 7 0 0 1 FORM IL 14 0; is by power that's given by the utility workers? . A I don't know whathery.ou could say with any assurity that he. had exposure, ;.In m y opinion that would be minimal or none. - t\ Q Well, look to the next page where he talks about-- X don!t know t h e next P&go it doesn't have a number on it. It's four pages farther oh, where he gives, work hygiene at Monsanto.1 He talks about-*are you with me? A No,' sir,"' ,' /*./'.'./ 'k f V 1 J rl " fV* j Q There's no number on this page, It says work hygiene at Monsanto.^ : ", > . A I L right, v;-/ v? , Q Yes,/ You see where he states that he works with*-ho wears raincoats for ammonia protection, he wears, coveralls when he sometimes works oh boilers and tanks, and then.look -/ \ ^ // V- _./ / oh the next page where he talks; about working**he has colds , from exposure to NH3 and other,.gases, chlorine. He has sporadic exposure from 1945. to 1976'; . You see that, sir? < V ' " A Yes* ' >' ' V' / `. /- ,,, 1 > . Kt r j- ' Q / Wouldn't that ,suggest to: you, sir, that he.has V ,' ./ / T'/.J exposure?. -/'/' ,L.M V j - ^1 'v" -sS - ' - " i" L had A It's possible* .<> ! 7 -"U, of* Q That's what i'mvasking you; ?Doctor , from these records you can deduce that/ the man^ possibly had exposure to TCDD, f \ -ti -t t ;v v / ' - - * `. 1*' ' -. V- '1 n. r -1 ,, -i 11V r ' -- .= 7 * ' n r . ' r '- > * jV - - L - ;!l r * 1 ' -* , ' -t ^ can you n o t, s ir ? * , * ' i " \/ . 1 '* - 1 :- : . ' < w . ' r %! *' --- - ' . .2 / 3. A YS. ' ,, . . J` r Y ' ',, * L< -j -` -V, ;l/ . -r r * ' k ' ^ r , * * '' ' " *' * ,, i-/.`' ' " . ' - . v ',, 1'' . Q Y e s * And a s .f a r ,a s h is h is t o r y o f c n c e r i s c o n 4 c e rn e d ,, h e to o h ad a h is t o r y o f a k in c n c e r , d id h e n o t , s i r ? . 5' i .6 v . A Yes* / - V ' - , . , -^1 / - - Q And a p ro s ta te tu m o r ln l9 7 0 - - p r o a ta te t r o u b le , I'm * 1 . , 1 'V : s o r r y / T h a t ' s n o t a t u m o r # T h e h i s t o r y o f s k i n c a n c e r , ` ' ` 8^ Is it :h o t , s ir ? .- 9' " , A*'' Y e s . ' `r V; V /* ; ; . 10 : ,v*, , " Q ` Slo w , D o c t o r , w e h a v e h e r e a t o t a l o f o n e , t w o , t h r e e , - 'b t . r - \ ' - ' *k` / ' J 1 -- p J bT 1` 1 1\ * r i * "* 4 ' ' ' 11 / f o u r , f i v e , s i x , s e y e n p e o p lo w ho h a v e h is t o r ie s o f c a n c e r , n *. f o u r o f whom w a re c l e a r l y , : f rom t h e i r , h i s t o r y , n e x p o s e d , 13 ' a n d t h r e e o f w h o w e r e e x p o s e d ; i s t h a t c o r r e c t , s i r ? O r 14 . ' / p o t e n t i a l f o r e x p o s u r e , . / 15 - A ; B a se d o o u r a s s u m p tio n o f w h a t th o s e c l a s s i f i c a t i o n s tOtV - . - , 16 / . ' m e a n . .. . / , / . ' *' .. / BAYONNE. N.J. 07001 Sore* k - - 174 it u 18 <1 4 1r-9 L Q Y e s * W e ll, an d t h a t ' s -- y o u .h a v e a l l th e h is t o r y 'h e r e .a n d a l l t h e r e c o r d s , h e r e , D o c t o r , t h a t w e h a v e ? ' \ Y e s; , '' . ' ' / ' - *' 3 20 / ; Q B e c a u s e w e , a s k e d , f o r e v e r y t h i n g t h a t w a s u p p l i e d < t1 1 -, , ? A ' -*> 1jJ, 1' 1 * ;>. 4 *' . .'',,, V;T V.'1`>j .7J ;** **fc.**,,-'t *' 'll N tJi.P>'t If *' i rP* . , . * ^ r , ; ^ t o D r . S u s k i h d -a n d w e h a v e e v e r y t h i n g t h a t w a s s u p p l i e d t o V. '22 ' " r - i / - <'-*. / / / ' / /, ' jV ' ; ; c ' D r . S s k i n d .< T h i s i s i t . . T h e r e i s n o m o r e . N o w , D o c t o r - t - . 23 . . r 24 . H R , H EIN EM A N : N o w , . y o u r H o n o r, I ' m n o t s u r e t h a t i s 1" . . , V i' ^J , t''J' ' *' V ' \ ' f ' , . f ,J >- >, - ;'r ' . 1. - ' c o r r e c t , I w a n t t o 'c h e c k 'o n . t h a t ',' " T h a t 's , w h a t I 'm a s k in g , lti, ^J 1p^ t '' ^^ _ v fJ , I* ' p*- , * ` j ( ^ ^ _J ^ * , k ' .* ''I IJ- t \ F LJ 68 ' * ^ ' ^ ' :- , i '_> -, t' -, ^ . (* r - f*- 1 1 is to whether this Is a complete record. X object to that 2 ; s, tr' ate- m*en* ts. - ^ ", *7 :>' x \ ^ - *\ " j^ y MR, CARR: I 'll represent to the Court that this 4 is the complete record that was furnished to us, 5 . MR> HEIMEMANI .VThat about all. the-- 6 THE COURT; You may proceed. 7, ; Q (By Mr. Carr) Doctor, these cancers, if y o u 'll 8 look t the Table 1 for the number of cancers In the,not 9 *< ` ` - * - * " - o' t , v' ? . 7 ' * ,* , * J ^ - r" ' ' ->* * J , ,'i r 4 ^ iV exposed g r oup," s i r . This.is b y percentage, l it hot, siri 10 The percentage, the number of non-exposed is. one hundred U : and^ sixty-three. . "/ " . '. -, 12 . - *. -< 13 141 15 .1 6 1A Yes/ 1 " Q That:'a the number of workers ,actually studied, a . part of the study,. . 1, " A ^ Yea, 1 . t ' ' " V" . " " Q 2.5 percent of those people had skin cancer, and 17 ' 1 1.5 percent had other kinds of cancer; isn* t that correct, "18. . 19". sir? Yes. ;/ t y v.,^y -y -i*- *1- ' / ) ,if 7V A _ * . * ' 20 1 Q And that's/ra total o 3 " 7 percent, is it not, sir? 21 Yes-" V ; . 22 -- ' Q And if ;,you take 3>7;percent of one hundred, and -i '23 ' sixty-three, you'll get the number six; will you not, sir? 24 / ' , A- Yes, - v* ' 69 ,, t: .1 Q Now,1 Doctor, Dr* Suskind has. reported to, the world 2 at large that he has 'found six cases of cancer among these 1 -\ v J, 1 * 3 one hundred and sixty-three unexposed people, has he not, sir? 4' A; ' Yes*'; ^ ` ' ' /; . 5 Q When In point of fact, he has found four cancers iri '6 unexposed people, has h e not, sir?1 7> . A . That1s what weVe gone ^through' s6 far*- . V - ' f ,, '* f 1 , ^ i . . * A 8;; -Q Yes * And that , 'Doctor, is all that exists, as'I' 9 will represent to you and as you will see as w e go farther - 10 \ on/ ' Now,' if these figures -are correct , if there are only . 11 four ' ; * ' \ * ' workers who. have had. cancer and not exposed to ' " TCDD, .j { ` 12. '* 13,. , 14 ' 15 .. .then Dr* Suskind himself: is not telling the truth to, the ip world at large, is he/ sir, when he says there were six that 4 v, >* * * - f' >- . j - . .` 1-. '. 1 t h a d 'cancers without being exposed in that group of a hundred v . - 'j arid sixty-three? _ -`.V J. v 1 16 , Il : 18 19 20 21 `. 22 / A'1 He was not correct* That's right* \ V* - -- - - '. A Q ' That, too, would affect, again you're comparing thesv exposed'group- tKo thoe:' un -> exposed vK' group,",aren't VV - you/* sir, <tt.he ' `'-a'- skin cancers? Yes ;i , j i % :? - i. ; - ^ S j Jr f- w ;4 ^ Vr <1 U * ' - 41f - 1 1 - v - f ;; - ; L Q J- i-And it- co m e s .out h e r e ,. y o u rve got .3*7 -'r ' .j ii'i'- - -ir ; ; . ;v,, ; , i..., ? vi.-t'5. " . perrcceennit * ",J having cancer in the'unexposed as opposed to 6.9 percent, in the 23. exposed group, while there is. a difference, it's riot near the 24 ' difference that it w o u l d 1be if it ware 3 percent ,as opposed . . .v C* FORM IL 24 0 SAVO NNE, N .J. 0 0 0 2 70 1 to 6 percent, is; it, sir? .Again, a- 5 0 rprent difference, ' *J *'/' ^^ V '` -- " i : 2 If there's only four people in the unexposed group that have; - ' *;3 ' cancer, which will reprissent'3 percent f the total f as f 4 opposed to 6,9 percent, nearly 7 percent of 'the-exposed. 5 .g r o u p , and if you add .these three to the exposed g r o u p , you 6 increase-your percentage by, another t w o o r three points, \ -7 ' don't you, sir? It makes a big difference, doesn't it, Dr. ' ;8 .Eoush? V. v :j ; 9 / / A If our definition of exposed, and unexposed is, correct. 10 . v '.' Q,' .Yes, indeed. And-.again,- the .world, at large has to . . il- . ..-depend upon; the honesty/of .'the persons ,interpreting thse -, * . :r. i2' records and upon th honesty of the, persons supplying the , 13 persons,who are going to give the records. So there's two 14 ways you can confound the world a t large; -You can confound - / 9 r I L r - 15 ' it by not supplying those people who were in fact exposed, - O u, y ,x 16 or by "calling them unexposed. And yoii can cpnfchild it by 3 O K O - 17 i . interpretings >1 r ' ec i, o . rd \ s /w ir,- h er ;/ e'ijJt h e r r< ha -: ye ' fb " e e n and is potential. J ' 2 ... . " ;L '/ ;/ / - ,/ ' / V /_ i' , v. . .. v 18 ru for exposure, the janitor, the utility foreman, the shipping^ Z/ f s> o 1 ,19 19 * foreman, by/calling'those; people iuriexposed, you can confound / K-' t1-*---'~ ' . j *,/ ' -j. . - . , 1,, ,* , ./ ' > !> ,:- y1 i' ' ' 1 j ' , r , 1" ' <$- - '-* . . ' " -' ' / * ( 1 20 . .` : ;t h e can'tr e s u l t s , , y o u ,' s i r ? - v r/ i/ ; P t, , . .' 7 / < //// / ' \ - -- / / A . If c o r r e c t" t h a t ' s .V / v " ^ *r _ /-/ ^ -.22 ' v Q Yes,. Now, Doctor,; I'd like to continue with the. 23 /records that we have of these various, cancers to;establish . J24 `j the status of the remaining workers that.were described./ ' " * 1i r | ' 1- 'i - _ * *j - - .# ' -V Y~ ' ' * * *- , ff . ' * * *- f , -J ' k .' T# * " ~J ` FORK IL 24 B 71 f -, 'V *r f%* .` ~ 'r-;T ' ' r ,. 1 -4-4v t 1 t j ' >J1-,, ` " ' ' * \ d \'i i 1 The next; one is, Crites;; It's, number 8. ' ^ %, b And if y o u 'll turn . 2 to- hie history, he has a history of working in the 2,4,5,-T 3 'f. department; ' ' r>*, `"dJo1 es ,he iv njo.t.i,'x sir? ; . t*jr LJ., , / 4 :1 A ' Yas.. .. , . . i ; '. `: '' . : j '- " ' ;5 ' Q , And, Bo .ha' is 'exposed,; is .he not, sir? ' j` . 6' `-i.* 7 A : Yes/ k '*f y ;,r\ ' - *./' . ^ r ;; ; Q And as far as his history of cancer is concerned, ', 8 '' on the page dealing with that,.with the next yellow tab, h e * 9 / Lhas ,a skin cancer i h a s n 't; h e , *sir? . 10 ' ra > r' I d o n 't have that, on my.next tab. T must b e on the 11 wrong page*; > _ ./ \ 12 y v .q ; W e l l , .the third;tab then. Yes,, -that's the one.* -j rr 13 ; ; MR. "HEINEMAN: ' Can you give us -a page,- Mr. Carr? " ~^ '4 " -N "* 14 >- > 15 mMR*. .'L *CARR.: Fifteen, Counsel. * ;X think i t-'js the J * history / the personal medical history is.on page fifteen; J \ > BAYONNE. N.J .; 07001 rONMv IL 14 b ` - 16 17 " 4. h e * Q - . not? (Mr; Carr) * t. 4 / / ' \l $ULi\ - . V ,f Heu -hias the history, of skin cncer; ''l*Jj i ,1.i* ,. ' .A W.'/'-r -* y- : doe1s \. . - 18 "19, 20 ' , 21 "4 22 * A Yes.;,; V,, ' \ '"/"t V \ i v,-'* 11 ;t,., Q .. The hext ne ifl^number 'nin^ 1 f v. As far as his 'history; is (concerned-- V-\ T Tht would be Miller. 4 ^ A , This, is nine? ^ Is that nine? \ V Q Nimiber h i e / - /- - r/ . *; \ ' ' . 23 ; :;v ' f ' i a ^ Right. _/ . ; - / / ' '>>' ;* ' , `- - 24 ^ tt - Q.. And he, has a history .of working a s a maintenance man, ' i(#l * ' 1 , ' , " ' ,1 r ,* " ' *' - *Pa S r* / 1 * f' . *' 1 r 1" 72 1' ; a pump mechanic, all -through the plant -repairing open lines, 2 `;3 1 ' opening lines, and he worked as' a' utility, worker in all ' *' ,' . j i > P"rr' 1 ,, i~ rJ* ,, J * ' r '/` , 1 ' - " h f j iJ ' i, buildings, .rin productioix* He worked in the .shipping depart- , 4 , ment, the warehouse, he weighed product for shipping,' ;He 5 r:waa' ^ operator in building `41, H a had.-ample- opportunity 6 for exposure, did hd not,; sir? :/ . '7' !* .`y -A -`The'.'ques Cion .Us';-the.magnitude, b h i s 'exposure * ' It *a -'.8 9 i: ? a questionable one. :v;; ' * . / './ . * . ' *. ; .` ;V. s - \ V; .-_;b . ; 1J v Q The D r , Suskihd study -did n o t .deal *with -the magnitude "1 ` ' J ! ' A ^ , * * J .'` .* I i , t-T. , "of exposure. He sim p l y 1;classified 'them exposed o r vnot x- / if ;:p o s e d . H e . dealed not' with the magnitude. .His study j , ' as . 12.: you, can see, if will look' at it again, dealt ^only* with did 13 : h e have- a history of exposureJor non-exposure.`r "Vi'-' 14. j A . I. think;that there1syanp ther -group in here that he y ' r. ! ' . - . . i t , ? r ^ r . y ` J 'l L } ; -.f rif ' " r . -. - " ' , . ' J. 15' tydropped,out;y-> 'y , ; - i y V i ; 1 .v. .`y ' " i , Vi*-- .. 1-, ; . ' V J- ,,.* 'j * . 16 Q Yes. indeed, : And thisystudy-that we have here deals y^ i/V\ / ..17 with those who liave expoaiaxe by history or not, exposure* / , 18 ` .\ . r'- 19; ;; A Ho , sir. - Therefa ,another .one in here.' .On page 27-- ' Lr i J i*'' "r ` ' ,, J %< *, -j .*,.*% - % ^ X7hat is it, 2373, it says there are fifty-one subjects whose 20 .possible .exposure. as limited and poorly documented and did^ 21 y n o t include working in the 2,4,5-T process, and they were 22 , : , ^ t . i ^ l t t d e d ``in* the analysis; J 7'y y '- , y^. j " r. *23 v ! y y .Q ' Weil, but fthese are ones that were included in the .' '24. ^ M a l y s i ^ V B b c t p r * y : =-y!:;^ '? .y BAYO N N E, N .J. /"* A How ,can you tell? j ^ T' ' .Well;-because of ,the tape that was given us,, and .. *perhaps!X should-give/tliat to you a l s o . It will help you in interpreting these records .--Make,.this exhibit-"I should have given this to .you earlier. It would help y o u Interpret: t* *, ' f i * -* 'rj `s >. *_ L i * '1 L i * these documant s , because;this again Is D r . Suslcind*s computer Jj rj' - V- _ ' ' record of; these exhibits, ^ i r 1i (Plaintiff's exhibit 1472 was marked for identification by the .court: reporter .) ,v Q .(By. Mr. Crr) Handing .you now what' s been marked Plaintiff 's exhibit 1472,l.that, can help you interpret these records. For the record, .1472' 'Is.,the- computer printout,' , the^ ta*p4e of. . wh- i1*ch ., " as s^ h'ow/n by * Wa x ex if h iL\ b`"i'VSt1 *1469,T, w^ a s f j u r n i sj h ed ' - -- V ' `*,C i >, /. *' ,- ^ , ; - >J r \ - by Dr , Suskind to th lawyers /in vtha^ case, and-It was .subsequently furnished to' us ,. < ; / ' V \ r - `J' r* , - V; ,..A What's 14697 . . - : ` ^. Q 1469 is the letter to those lawyersi A ;I see. ' ' 1 ' r- , Q This is from Charles ton,. West Virginia. 1 '/' ' ' \.A' I'see., - r ,J' Q -, Referring to the computer .tape. A ; All r i g h t . Y-;^ /f-j,_ ;v ' 1. t- %_ 1 Q And If y o u 111*-to assist you i n the way Dr . Suskind 2 interpreted these records, if you look at the second entry 3 which says "new i.d. number nine," and the word "MiDsr is 4 written above that. 5 A Yes* 6 Q If you'll read across you'll see that ha has a history, 7 he has it marked as exposed, does he not? 8 MR. HEINEMAN: Excuse me, your Honor. Mr. Carr ore 9 you offering 1472? 10 MR. CARR* Yes. X thought I did. X offer 1472, 11 your Honor. 12 MR. HEINEMAN: Your Honor, the seme objection will 13 apply. There's no foundation whatsoever for the same reasons 14 X previously stated. Xn addition to that, this document IS appears to be written on. ~ I don't know who wrote on it. X 16 don't know whether this was a document produced or whether 17 Mr. Carr had some tape run through a computer and this is 18 generated, or what it is. 19 MR. CARR: The tape that was supplied to us, the 20 computer tape was run through the computer. The printed 21 part is the part that the computer spit out. The written 22 part is there!for the assistance of the witness. If he 23 wants to use it, he may. He doesn't have to use it if he 24 doesn't want to. 1 HR HEINEMANr Do X understand that the written 2 part was put on for t h 'assistance of this witness? 3 MR. CARR: Yes. 4 MR HEINEMAN: And yet it was just now given to 5 him an hour after the examination? 6 MR, CARR: I 'm sorry. For m y assistance in inter 7 preting these tapes. And I'm now giving it to this witness 8 to help him interpret this data. 9 MR, HEZNEMAN; My objection stands, your Honor. 10 This is a document apparently generated by Mr, Carr. And 11 there's no fo 4i utn dation ". for T its admission. * * ^ 1, 12 THE COURT: The objection is overruled. 13 MR,.\ CARR: . f Your 71 ^ Ho,n} or, if Counsel is concerned 14 about the m i t t e n part going to the jury, because I'm not 15 passing this exh \ ibi,,ti ^tlro t*he,*.*jt. ur*y: at '5 this time, why ultimately 16 they will see it, I'll be more than happy to produce a 17 document without the writing on it, 18 THE COURT: Fine, 19 MR, CARR; Zf Counsel objects to the jury having 20 these.writings. 21 .THE COURT: Fine, Zf you would, please. 22 MR, CARR: It's simply a repetition of what is on 23 the tape Itself. 24 THE COURT; Fine. 1 Q (By Mr. Carr) Now, Dr, Roush, to assist you, y o u 811 2 see the number nine there that we previously identified as 3 Hiller. 4 A Yes, air, '. 5 Q He* s classified as exposed by this computer printout, 6 is he not, sir, that Dr. Suskind furnished us? '7 A If that's what that means. There1s not m u c h informa 8 tion to help us understand that. 9 Q Well, this information you have, this information 10 was generated by Dr. Suskind from the other information that i * , '*i * 11 you have. This'is the totality of the information hopefully 12 that Monsanto supplied to us. If it has more information, 13 we would certainly love to have it. But w e asked for and 14 the Court ordered that ' ' '* M v o ns a n' t\ or pr-o* dvuce all the information, 15 all the data that It gave to Dr, Suskind upon which Dr. 16 Suskind made his conclusion. 17 A X understand. 18 Q If w e don't have all the data, then we, of course, 19 cannot analyse Dr. Suskind's results. If w e have all the 20 data, as v e are supposed to have, then w e can analyze the 21 results as we are doing. 22 A That's not my question. 23 Q Now, would you assume please, Doctor, that-- 24 A Yes, sir. Q . -- that this .is, all the data w e 've got and all t h e 'datff ,that Dr*. Suskind had?, . v ' - "- c'-'- 1 y* * , ' "> C A 1, Q X understand. *r *' , r*,, -i, * * . *b All right. ^ ; V . ! ^ * Jrtd ^ r ^ * ' *t v ** '/ - i - A . riy question is when you.fcalk about the statement 1. * *; > ' m 1 'r - ' - - "L ` _ J1 ^ f' 1 , r ' , .tr ha**t+ ' i t 's * expo' s ed* " 't'hr rat'*s on"e word, ,, i ^ . , j* mWt w - * ' u * Q -"'Yes. ' V A , I 'm not surewhafc; that m e a n s . , , ri.;' : i ; \ tf , v } ;~v -,v/ - . , , > Q W e l l , look at' the,^ery f - " e x p o s e d ,equals exposed.'' Then look at the very next enti^, "exposed equals not ex- ?, posed." Th next rent We have earlier de scribed'Finch as .unexposed/because his exposure took place after he had the skin cancer. If you look at all of those* you will find that D r . Suskind has categorized these by exposed and not exposed.-. .. .. . v :A ; All right;- \Q Even to assist you further* you can see; go down to t h e one called Gorrell. T h a t 's on this page. Th next one is Runyon. xD you see Runyon? H l s i . d , number.is 87. His says "exposed equals not exposed" and he was .listed by Dr. Suskind as not exposed. .You .see that* Dr. Roush? . Yes. * .'V V `,, .; 'r' MR.# "HEINEMAH: Your Honor *' I object to the character* iz&fcion that i t 's merely been listed b y Dr. Suskind as not 1 exposed. X think Hr, Carr has pointed to his own list and 2 his own characterisation. Is that correct? 3 MR. CARR: Does not this tape classify Runyon as not 4 exposed? Do you see the words "not exposed" there,. Counsel, 5 and Dr. Roush? 6 MR, HEINEMAH: 1 also see ''exposed" there. 7 MR. CARR: Mo. You see "exposed equals not exposed." 8 There's an equals .sign there, .Counsel, ; . ' r V 9 MR. HEIHEMAM; Yes.' ib MR,; CARR: Exposed/equals, not exposed, s . <, *` . ,1^ A " ] / .'. 11 MR; HEINEMAN: That5 s certainly not very helpful J >r 12 to me, Mr, Cart'. ^" 13 THE COURT: Well, the objection is overruled, 14 Q (By Mr. Carr) r Well / Dr / Roush, back to the criteria 15 that we have, I'm giving you this computer tape because 16 the computer tape Is the analysis that Dr, Suskind put on 17 the other records which I've been asking you about* I've 18 lost m y exhibit now that X was talking about. Mr. Miller, 19 20 A la there, another catagory that says questionable 21 exposure, besides exposed and not exposed? A 22 Q Apparently not that's been furnished to us, Doctor, 23 P lease9 if X am misrepresenting something, you will have an 24 opportunity when Mr* Heineman asks you questions to fully 79 h.' i 2- 3 show the misrepresentation and destroy a y credibility, wit h the jury. So if I 'm doing that If I 'm misrepresenting, " * - \ \ H ,v i i i *' * 4 *, _ t L something, ormisleading you In something, you'll have the 4 full opportunity to expose m e . - .5 6 7 * 8, 9 A Z'm just asking a question about that data. *^ ; - /' J 'i v -- *** ^- ,, *, ' Q . X have not that catagory ,1 / y y*. fry * y y r ^;Vv/ .. r ^ ~ < A . I i&rstahd1*?- / '.f/ 7v m /n * ,j ' ` ,*.! !. ** V ` f 5" '' ^ *i--' ^ i.- f '/ , ` j' Q This ,data, if.' > if ..: <yi ou v 'll f go Vt back 1: ' to r- Miller now. He -.ijL has v" i , j t ,, a history of; expo sure, :docs he not? H e 's listed in Dr. ,10 Suskind'a tape as exposed,, is he not? ' , t \ J 'r * , * i i * Jf f ' * - . * .* - * J " , .O- ,.-ir - J '' ' 1 f y 7 A ; Yes. - y ;t ^ J". , , *. rr. : * ' y ^ - " =v .7 ]l 12 Q And.if y o u 'll turn to his history, he has a history 13 - o f bladder cancer, doesn't he, sir? .f . 14 A Yes. ' V yy . v j 1.. . 15 Q The next one is Hein, whose i.d. number is 26. He ; i6, has a history of exposure, says that he works throughout 1 17. 18 the plant preparing instruments. And; if you' ll look at Suskind's tpe, he calls him exposed, also, in this tpe; 19 , 20 . 21 ''22 J 23 ' 24 is n 't that correct,. Doctor? . A iExposed, yes. r y* *7 / 7 v ,J , Q And if you look to his history of cancer, he'has . bowel cncer, does ha.not, sir?; '. A Yes. '.v ' 'i. J Q The nsxt one ia McDade, number 32, He has a history t FORM IL 4 0 30 1: , -2 3 4 5 6 ", 7 ' ; .8 9 10 ,11 >i .>12 i 13 14 15 16 i. ' . 17 18 19 .20' 21 v22 /'23. :24 of being exposed, does\hehot,sir? ',/& ' ^ /' V * Q !A & d h has a h i s t o r y o f skin cancer, d o e s n 't he, sir? A .Yes. ` : Q The naxt one ia--wa slready hsd Reynolds, have we V>* r not,' s i r t ' i X ' Y-- t 1 i - ^ V^ A: v X ' m g o i n g by m m b e r vr-,.;Ara yon talking about 52? , _ /Y/',.. " * i /, j -Y' ''.;Y \ ? \ 5 / Y * - / Q Wa h a w previously .'shown that Reynolds--you ha d that exhibit earliej-r-' f-- ,i :.-*V) u ./.- Y v ft r r >'W-: * 1 ' ;;V..' V , A Those are the ones X haven't looked at yet. -. . Q All right. WeVve already e s t a b l l s h e d t h a t Reynolds'- ,, IJ ' * u > ' J- ' ' . '* - - *^ ^ i,, r , '1 - * > - p \ ; - , , V. * ;^ a * 1* I'm going to. put him out of order at this time-- strike that, l e t that be. Go to the neat one, which would be Volz, the one I'm.going to give.you at this time. The.next one Is number 52 -who would be Volz. He has a history o f exposure, ^c o s he not? ' 'Y Y;' " ' ../'-Y .* y Y JY A " Are you ready-*- y . Q .From the Records ; Y- . \ . '^ Y -A - From the tape? "* Y Q ' From the records. If you look at the place where / the t a b ie> ', 4 , 4' ' ." r '* A All right. Y Y ; ` L.r ' Y Y', Y :Y ,, ? * ' -V i j: 't,Y - 'Y Q He worked in a health safety program .and plant J inspectionsv. He's the safety director of the Nitro plant. PENG AD CO.. BAYONNE. N.J. 1 Hie safety director of the Rltro plant goes throughout the 2 plant, does he not, sir? 3 A Yes* 4 Q And as far as his history is concerned, he has a 5 history of bladder cancer, does he not, air? Do you see , 1> ' 6 that on the page numbered 15? " 7 A Yes, That-- yes. i h, 8 Q He also has a history, sir, of skin cancer, doesn't -'- * r * ' /J> \^ j u *-* * * 9 he? If you look on page 21 you see that basal cell carcinoma 10 of the right thorax tan to twelve years ago. 11 A Yes* 12 Q So he has two cancers. 13 A Bid Dr. Suskind list him ac exposed on hie tape? 14 Q No, I don't think. Let toe look. Yes. Fifty-two? 15 Yes, he's listed as exposed. 16 A I don't see it. What's his number? 17 Q Fifty-two. ' 18 A Fifty-two. On the first page? 19 Q Yes. Number ;52.. Look on the new l.d. numbers. 20 You're looking at the old. 21 A X see. All right. - 22 Q Now, ha's listed as exposed, but on Dr. Suskind's 23 printout he's listed as no history of cancer; isn't he, sir? 24 A Where is this? 1 Q Volz, i.d. number 52, skin cancer history, no. 2 Cancer history, no. Ik you see that, sir? 3 A Ho, sir. 4 'L ' -J t ! ;;. :* . . Q You don't sea that? ' 1 r' -f. ,;- i, ' 5 A Whore are you reading that? 6 Q On the Suskind tape,,sir. . ' 7 A Eight. ,f `* ? ; l .. r i ; tl - * 8 Q Volz, skin cancer, no, i.d* number 52, exposed. 9 He's exposed. Skin cancer, no. Cancer history, no. Do 10 you see that, sir? 11 A Yes. 12 Q And if you would look at McDade on that same printout 13 McDade is also listed by Suakind's printout-- 14 A What number i s .that? 15 Q Humber 32, sir. 16 A la that the next one? 17 Q Ho. That's the one just above it, sir. 18 A All right. Ho hasn't been exposed. 19 Q But he has no history of skin cancer. Doesn't fi: 20 show that, sir? Ho history of akin cancer. 21 A Right. 22 Q But yet he clearly has cancer, doesn't he, sir? 23 Clearly has a history of cancer,, doesn't he, sir? 24 A `Yes , Q . In the Suskid records, if you will look at Hein, ir. A -l Q A1 4 His 'number\is? ^It?-s 26?-,r^ ,, " ,^fy* j; ; \ Number 261" H *s exposed / Ha- has a history of cancar in bio *' ' i'4 records \\ - t4haCt' . tie gave-to Dr. *' y Vi . : /' Susklnd. ''V`^ But p r y Susklnd has him listed As no cancer, doesn't he a i r ? ; A If those representations are correct it makes sense what you are" saying* But this is the first time I ' v e . seen these abbreviations* \ , ` `> ' V Q I understand that:Doctor, but the point I want, to make to you, and I'm making to the jury is that these . -,>P 1 ' V*- t \ "' _" y *i j three men-and there will he more many mo r e Doctor many more--theso three men reported to Dr* Susklnd to their^ interviewer that they had history of, cancer and Dr. Susklnd on,his computer tape,ckhibit 1472, listed t h e m e s not ' having, a history of cancer. And there will he more Dr. Roush'_-k _; MR* HEIKEMAK; 1 Your Honor, I'll object, to this 1 l ^ a , ,, J; j characterisation. and that speech by Mr. Carr because if you look at number V 7 0 1 o n the printout there, under McDade, it'says V701 akin. ; Under Heih it aays V701 bowel. Could that possibly be a reporting of the cancers'that M r . Carr says are not there? ^, MR; CARR* We' 11 find out, sir If w e ,have as many 1 cancers, just as many cancers as he reported in his table, 2 relatively -few, seven.percent of two hundred and four, that's * ju k> 3 fourteen cancers, if .we have only .fourteen cancers when we 4 end up to this, we'll find that he did report all these 5 cancers* However, if we have twenty-five cancers.when we 6 end up with this study, we'll discover that he didn't list ` - v ; - ," ~ " 7 all those that had cancers, won't we, Mr* Helneman? 8 MR. HEINEMAN: Well, that's your characterisation, 9 Mr, Carr. 10 MR. CARR; And we will see, 11 THE COURTs Mr Carr, you may proceed 12 MR, CARR; Yes, your Honor, 13 Q (By Mr, Carr) Doctor, going to the neat person la 14 Honaker. His i,d, number is 53. And he has a history of 15 exposure, does he not, sir? 16 A X would think so, 17 Q Well, he clearly says it, 18 A Yes. 19 Q 2,4,5-T cleans them out. 20 A I would think so, yes, 21 Q And Honaker also has a history of two kinds of 22 cancer, doesn't he, sir, leukemia and prostate cancer. You 23 see that on page 15? You see that, sir? .24 A Yes. Yes. ,i lK 85 t `i' * 'A j m JL 2i 3` nV ' 4 Q A n d if y ou ,look ,at the p r i n t o u t for Honaker, t h a t is i ii -*r*'-f ^ r" -" : eKhibit lAZ^v for, t^e ^ w i.di' number SS, you* 11 find h e has a hist o r y o f no. skin cancer, b u t h e has a cancer h istory , _ - j * .: , *',' '/'*t ii j /: ^'1f .4 ^ _: L ' V , ' ,, listed there, It just inejntions one cancer, d o e s n 't it, sir? ' 5 A Well, rit liflts loukei^a arid prostate. .6 VV 7 Q Well, w e 'll p a s s - - w e 'll g e t b a c k to that One, Dr, r Roush, and w e '11 demonstrate w h a t ha in fact demonstrated in 8 . his report,; The n e s t one w o u l d b e Selby, w o u l d it not? .' 9 That w o u l d b e number 82, H e has a history of exposure, does `10 . h e not,'Sir?. - ` l7 > *, 11 A' X c a n 't r e a d it. ?'- \ v" 1 ' 12 Q . H e 's a pipefitter. H e works all oy e r tie plant. 13 ; H e ' a . a maintenance and construction foreman. H e works i n . J. '14 - 'installation of equipment all over,the plant, ' 'r-X. .'-'Y * ' 15 . - A Yes* .; Y . .\ _. :,-y - ^ aOIoS. *'4;,. '17:r-; *U=2z--LA ",,*18 -t. SCEt->- - -19-,. ,Q ; His history of cancer, he has-- . yY ,A:. .Skin cancer*- Y ;',Y . ;/ >':_Y' Q*' W e l l w, t_rhere'1avaj bladdar\ tu.(mor removed,w that jh-e also-- ' > `' ' ' JY there's a bladder tumor removed,. His history is just of i ' PENGAD C O .. BA YO N N E. N .J. 1.<ot*el.J'* 1r. 20 1 ` 21 'skin cancer*; 'Y YYY ''-r._' V ' ^ .A: Where is ;the bladder''removed? ^ 22 ' .v Q ,Oh the next page, number l6. Do you see that, where ' 23; . he has & ^bladder tumbr removed? r v. 24 . .'h . A Yesv./ ' FORM IL V 86 1 2; 3, 4 5 -6 V 7; '8 ` 9 10 11 12 J 13 , 14 15 16 17 18'-' 19. 20 21 ^22 23' 24 Q - ` rx Sr <W jA But h e r a p o r t s "in/his history section , or the inter- \-f; V V- i f -S . * viewer; reports that lie hao a -history of skin cancer; correct? A Y e s . ' ' < Ji 1 ? - .. q; The-neat one will be number 89; Mr * West. A Deep he1 list h i m yas exposed on his;form? Q V m sorry. Who?; \ A the one you just finished Selby? Q Yes . You see there? - ,, /; A ; Yes1;; \ r';v/r ,lV ; S r- ( '* 1 \ Q Number 82, expose equals exposed. _ ,?A-' , Y e b ^ , ' V i-v` 4* t V; ' C* `` " Q `/ A The neat one is West. He has a history of exposure. Is that 89? *\Av r ;; .'V;v-' t " : ' , i] 'v ; Q Number 89, the second page. department.;^ ,r - ` He works in the 2,4,5-T - //-. ' J A 1 c m ' t read it on mine. \ Q /Well, you can see the 2,4,5-T there, ca n 't you, sir? A ; And he's also; listed as exposed in the printout. Is that the last little writing d o w n :there? I t 's very. , blurred on m i n e . It|s right on the bottom of it. the 2,4,5-T? Yours is as blurred as/mine. ^ Q H e 's also listed in the Suskind printout as exposed, ^' ,, ^ *w -` A ^Number 82 exposed. V \v V. / A ' All/right. . r` ^ i V * ' PENGAD CO.. BAYONNE. NlJ. -. ;Q w>, vy->V^ jr*.-.?*, P ` ,- / p *>>., if.-- 7v .P i? * / ^ ? -` -.-tfV&r*' I'm sorry/ \1 ve ^ ^ * directed y o u ito the wrong * one, I t 's :'- West:-'$9-. i;,Lex' p'0-6Viedv> -:{\ v\ ; ; f: P *S*v' ` .A' All right ^ V " .- ' . .Q A n d as :farYas;M6l hiatory/of cancer is concerned, he -^ also has a v **i " historyy o*"f skin * canycer,: does - he not? i % A '-Yeev>-`' -.\i ! \- 1 '' ' :- Q The nest one v70uld b e rnumber 13 3 / w h i c h w o u l d b e Hill, Keith Hill, I think there's two Hill's, I better, put^ a K behind him. 'v <- * k 1 , / .i i ' * He has a history of exposure, does he . < .' f y -1 _ F,' r I^ r V ^ - *,*' 1 "^ not, sir? He was a maintenance supervisor-- on page 4 where the tab is-- throughout the ^production supervisor, and the maintenanco suparyisor in the entire plant; ; ' A.. ;Yes. ' Q A n d h e has cancer of the bladder that's shown, on ' the medical -records as attached, and the very; first page of this, papilloma of the bladder neck;, Do you see that, sir? , -y lj -r ' o _ * - A Mine says history of cancer of bladder, O h , I / 1 see.it. The first page.' Right, . Q , All right. And he also has a history of skin cancer that's shown on page 21, does he not, sir? Malignant mole on the back of something, his nose, or whatever that is. I can't make out that word A. ,Yes; sir, - l'Are you on,page 21? J-.' ' . ' . I ' ,, . Q j. Malignant. 4 *i i / rm 88 l- 1 2 3 4 A V It .say's he "was "told malignant* KV * 1 Q ..X*.' /-7 *v\ >4,>, -rv-j ;; J7 A Yes,; . ',* ;', -f ^}`f ^ Q The next one would-be- ' 5, ;tHB COURT: Okay.' Mr..- Carr, before you go on to 6' 7 the next o n e , w e 111 break for lunch, .ladies and gentlemen, we* 11 break for lunch at this time.. The admonishments T - 8 . gave you earlier will apply! during this break a l s o ; , Wa'IX 9 . resume again^ at one o'clock;, The Court is i n r e c e s s , . .10 li' : (At this time the limeh recess was taken.) \ .> . " 13 "'V 14 - ,, i ,p (The. followingproceedings were had in the V . 1l . '7 . , . i ' ^ - ` _ V' r . \ 1i presence and hearing of the jury:) *N i i at k 15 . I 16J ; 17 18 (Plaintiff's 1471A was marked for Identification by the court reporter.) 19- " .20. 21 22. 23 24. Q (By Mr. Carr) Doctor, t h i e x h i b i t that I've handed 1 ' _ r,; -7/ i '' ^ 7' - . ; you earlier and had marked 1471A is Table 1 from the Suokind Morbidity Study, is it not, and a duplicate of 1471 that ,had been previously admitted into evidence. *4 A Yes; i sir . r ' K ,' j . " " + ' a. ' . ; J. \ * rv . r . J . MR, CARR: . I'd like to offer 1471A, your Honor, and BAYONNE. N.J. 07002 P ENCAD CO.. BAYONNE. N .J . 0 7 0 0 2 FORM IL; 24 B J- J, 1 J ' ' f " i { . V * >4 1^ 1,'v, iv *: ' } J ^ ' V : ;i ' : . ( - i' ;vV''"'>V- .. `` -t/ ; J" a . ;v d- I iJ ^ * * i 1 pass it to the j u r y .al'ab.,; |I had;;it; this morning, hut I 2 , j..-; -j * *V " \^ **,,,',,tn>v v K ^ v. . neglected to pass it . !. 3> ^ J-V <V % I > .vt\ ^ THECOURTi Do;you have any objection to'that? * r_ , _e ' L / >,r r. . - 4 .MR. HEINEMAN: r Your Honor, to keep m y ^exhibit 5;. numbers straight, your Honor!--, ., . ^ 6 MR. CARR? 1471' is tie blow-up. 1471A is the r Table 1 from exhibit 1467. 8* MR. HEINEMANi Okay.': 9 i .THE COURT! It's from the Suakind study. i: ' ' . ' t ,' 10 , ' -M R . .HEINEMAN:: And it's the'some as 1470? -. 11 ` THS".pOUST>.'.71. ' . ' 12 T ' " '; 'ME'.'.CABR 'i47l-.; ! ` ' ; ' ; " 13 -' m . HEINEMAN:, Nur^er'A-- 1471A'is the same as'1471? ' 14 . 15 l'.* M\ R. *CAERj, p Th"at is i co1* rrect.' . ,,,"i - ; , ^ MR. HEIHEMAHi Ho objectibn. 16 IT sr r 18 - . ! ,,1v91 20 21 : ' . 22 23 i 24 /. THE COURTi Fine;. Admitted v;ithout objection. ; Q, (By Mr, Carr) Doctor, the next employee-worker i \ * **1 ' ` * - \ that was subject of the study that's on this group exhibit ; . that you have is Matheny, number 135., ie it not, sir? /'*' A . Yes, .sir, ^ / V : . ? *'/ */ Q And Matheny has a history of exposure^ d o e s :he not? On page 8 with a tab on it. J / ,'v A Tes.1 - ' j k j, '*,* ; ' . 1 -. i- " ,, ^, * . Q And assigned to the building permanently at the * 89 1 2,4,5-T plant: 2- A YS. \ ^ ;j r,( ;5;' ' ' \ 3 Q And he has a history on page 135, the next tab, of 4 bowel cancer, does he not, sir? 5 A Yes, sir, r 6 Q the next one would be Woodall, number 167, Wouldn't 7 that be correct, Doctor? 8 A 167, I don't know if it's Woodall, 9 Q Well, you have the-- > 10 A I can go back over this list. 11 Q If you wish to check it* It has-- 12 A Right ij J 13 Q --the list there, and you also have the computer 14 printout that shows the l.d, number 167 Woodall. 15 A j Yes, sir. ' * 16 Q And you see on page 3 his exposure history. He's 17 a maintenance man, electrician in the entire plant. Do 18 you see that, sir? 19 1 A He was working 2,4,5-T. _ 20 Q I'm sorry. 21 A He was working 2,4,5-T. 22 ' Q Yes. You see that now, do you, sir? 23 A -Yes . j 24 . Q An d his history is one of skin cancer? ..9-: Lr .- r '*--^ .1 , t..V ; ` >>i i - ^ j1 i 91 1 ' f* 3 :; Y e s ''* -;iV. "bcj=.l]U(ri.t:,^i-- v c: 1 .2 Q And you w i l l n o t e on the computer printout of Dr. ' < - . 'i ,' *1 ' L ' L. L - , * ' iS 3' Suskind that he's listed as no cancer history, Is h e n o t ? 4 If you look at e&hibit 1472> 5 \ A They list him as haying skin cancer. V -. 6 Q If you look there you* 11 see his computer, printout f ' J " ^* - 1 ^ *' * 1t { y* m * ^^ ^ * shows ha has not got a history of dancer. " ^ S'- " . 1 % mr ~~ ^ \ K f`Y 'fr1* "\ , --^ 1' " Jl> " ^> 8' A But is shows earlier that he does have skin cancer, rj 9. Q Indeed, lt dbes. No, it shows.he has a skin problem. - -, ` ^V Ji - . "* -r 10 It doesn't show skin cancer; No skin cancer history, no. 11 . 'Cancer history,1n o . / : / ^ ; : ", " \ .... ' > 12 1 13 ` A , We/called Vicki Hertzberg at lunchtime from Suskind. Skin cancer history and cancer history, t h a t 1s ho t ,from 14 Cincinnati. That's not from Kettering. 15^ \ ' MR. CARR* Yout Honor, I would ask the jury to be 16. instructed to disregard what Dr. Roush has just stated hare, 17 unless Dr. Hertzberg--weli, ultimately w e m a y produce him 1. * * - ,- - i, v a 3r J fcl" -* *J * . a ^ j' * f ^ v 18- for crocs, examination. But that statement is a volunteered 19 statement. = Purely hearsay. ,1 have no way of knowing whether y 20 Hertzberg has described :it correctly or n o t ,:whether of . 21 not Dr. Roush has correctly described what D r ..Hertzberg 22 ha said, if anything, at lunch, to Dr/ Roush. . V 23 THE OTTNESSr; Yes, sir. \ 24 rr " , < MR,* * CARR: a- Thes^e ^a1r^e1t h e documjents that' J, we ha^ve been FENGAD CO.. BAYONNE. N.J, ' 07001 'FORM IL .14 B - r - y. /^ ,*Y given, vand they can explain those away ,at some other point, at some other time. \ /* . ^ THE COURT: .That motion was granted--' - MR, HEXNEHANi Your Honor-- . yj THE COURT: Wait: Just a, second.' D r . Roush, if you , "^ . 4 ' * ^ k- f' r would please confine your'answers, or. any statement you make to aaswars to the questions that are directly asked of you. You;will have an opportunity in the clarification1l a m i n a tion .by the attorneys from Mbnsanto to refer back to any ; of these mat t e r s . So if you> would do that, please, I would appreciate it. The system; that we have is in r e s p o n s e ;to ,, questions; and not volunteered statements such as that. Is that okayi Dr. Roush? . / ,, ,, r/; . ... THE WITHESS: . Yes, sir. . ;,/'- \ THE COURT: Thaiak you. : \' ' MR, HEXNEMAN: Your Honor,;am I-- may X not be per- , , mitted,to respond to Mr. Carr's argument? T h e C o u r t has. already ruled.> .' ^ ` THE,COURT:. X have ruled. This was nbt responsive to any question. There was tip question before the witness, and the matter that was .stated was unquestionably improper, The. questioner has the right to make that m o t i o n , and that motion was made. You m a y proceed, Mr. C a r r v \r- Q . (By Mr, Carr), Now, Dr. Roush, in that, regard, and,  \.. t,J:v'Jj1 X T- 4 '!' " .'i!j,i*.-iw; i`/ii,ij i * 'i J -> 93 L1 2 did you i n fact, talk; to Dr.; Suekind or Dr. Hertzberg during a b r e a k of t h i s t r i a l today1? 3 ; -.A* ,JY e a r sir. . ' V, '/..' 4 Q You talked to him personally? ' ^ ;; 5 A I talked to Hertsberg. v ;6 Q Did you learn from Hertsberg , did you discuss with 7 him these omissions that we have discovered here?. -.8 A_,\ No,rsir. _ ;; ,, 9 ; Q You" did hot discuss those? , - '1 `. IQ '' *L A^_' N.owr sir...\ ] * , . r 4 **. 11 Q J Did you.discuss with,him how this computer printout, 12 ) 13 1472, is to be interpreted? / ^ A Only.ve^. briefly. We couldn't.go through all of/ 14 the-items'here; 'J". '--".v 15 ;f Q. Well , did he advise y o u -- / / 16 17 18 / 19 ri 2 tr 21. '22., 23 . 24 A 'Ifc-'h her. L'- Q Did she advise ou that where there is-rwhere it says cancer history, n o , that if there is something else 'there that says skin, that would indicate that there was a - history of-skin cancer? . /\1 / A . She said she didn't know what those two Items ,were on the skin cancer history, or cancer history. '-1 .V/x. L //. .-V'-v.-'v' \ - . " ^ ` Q ; Well, did she advise you that the items before that- w e 're talking about Woodall at this time, and I 've .lost him i i ;r '''*^ /A A^if iji I* ' * ,,*< B4VQNNE, N.J. 0 7 0 0 1 ' FORM IL I4 B , '" ^ / if -t. ii ' i y r i V i . j ? fr ' V J. , V 2 ' j. 94 > i, 2; ' 3 4. 5 6 '. 7 .8 ' '9 . 10 11 12 13 14 y 15 16 / 17 . ;18 19 20 21 ; 22 23 24 on this printout ''Number 167. 4 There it is . --advise you y ` / 'v - ^ ;./ '/ that th/numbers before that, w h e r e i s says V701 skin, that, that indicates a skin cancer? .-/ 1 `J'y'f '-1," - A', Yes,, sir ,j ' * , 1 Vj - " ,, -,v ' , /../ ? . - y \; V ,ri ..y-- . r ^' t. Q Then where -it -says skin cancer history no, cancer/ hi"story no ,\'it was tjhfeA advice you rec'veiived t hWa3t ,the `figurr,,es ' '' \ .v \ - ?" ' - - before-- *in f r ont of that,, that would be 701 e q u a l e s k i n , . indicates' that there'was a h i story4of skin cancer; is that; correct? y ", y / y..' . - k - , ` S ' *\ 4. - r t ' ` * ,, ^\ rJ' - * - i. _ t. '** ' , ^ j .V ` ; 1 i < -1 r t ^ H / *A 'Y e s . ' />, /: ' / ' y vl -- 1 ,'' ' .. /j'V ;' * y- i,; 1, 4% / ..; Q Well, would that be true;of, aay, the one above, 1 M a t h e n y w h e r e it says V701 bowel, that would indicate a h fy .r , -t-p , < ' -- * . ,: J f S k L ?{*'* , J- bowel history? **J* ,* * - ^ 3./ v . J.J. ' r~ 4 , /'' '-v A 4 Y03;`'sir ;,,> V v -' 4 '/::y / /. * -" _-/ ^ ,- , Q And near up wherh w e have l.d; 118 Scarberry. /.We haven*t talked about Scarberry. It says there, that would ] \r ^ 'r ^ - ( ^ \, >' 1 , ^ i . tJ j". i ' r , ( r t , ^ * n ' v- -" be a lung and bowel cancer., : J:/ " -- y i- \ r ^ rL ^ . `.;_A-'/'I think that's y e s Q " 'All-right." -v; .A- 1. only, got, through that-first one y y .f- - ,v*. ; ' y .- - y " ;Q-- Well-- ' "...V *, ' ` A rBut X think'>that* s correct : Q y W a t you learned from your conversation was that V;. 'y y y -iffy l ^ \ *' \ > the controllings entry thQn would bo th entry that would say v y __i1 a / y y ' v 'A-* y y ,f n y - i.'y * j:. \ t" ' ^r`i r- V*y..ify: A * `v. PENGAD^CO., BAYONNE.' N.V. 0 7 0 0 2 FORM '1L 2* B lung and bowel; Is that correct? A -Yes, " ? Y Y ; . .* Y Q And Susklnd and Hertsberg did not use the part of the computer printout: dealing with the skin cancer history w h e r e i t s a y s no* and cancer history w h e r e rit.says no; is that correct? Y -? Y A \ Yes, -sir.-'"v ^ Y . " v ' Q All right. Soothe, record is clear on that, according "to that interpretation, Woodall'would have been treated by D r . S u s k i n d as having had a history of a k i n c a n e r j l s that correct? ; '} ? .Y ? , YY; Y , A, What's Woodall's ;number? Q Number 167.The he w e were Justtalkingabout. *?. Y t i- A _vY e^ s ?' sir. r *`f' -"' Y tYi ' ' 1 ^ ;-* L' _ c _ ,Q And Gorrell would have-- w e l l , there IsnVt anything 1? for Gorrell, any number there. But there la a skin'cancer history, and we do know, that Gorrell had a akin cancer history, .don't we, air? YV A 1 don't rtmbr;,. '/ - . Q W e l l , w e jump up to Honaker* Honaker, that1s l.d. number S3. It says leukemia and prostate*. Indeed, Honaker has leukemia and prostate cancer from the records ; is that ' k* Y Y Yi \ r - ? Y Y - - Y j > Y f t / . * correct?" ;7- ; aa : - A Y e s i sii* YT !,Y i _. ` ~Y. -- *w , V* 1 Y .r \ -*i ,," r - , *' "l : rV x ^% t -> l^ ' \ . ` * , ^ V.' V\ ^ r ' , /- -*-'/ % r\ ' - ' ^.; . '- * Jt , JHVp ^T H1 Q All right. So w e can use both of these entries then .. to determine^ just h o w S u s k i n d , what history Suskind had of 96 3 .../i 'th, esAe' vari,ous "cancers;V 1 i*s that c,oPr4i rr^ect` , also? 1* 4 MR, HEXNEMANi Objection, your Honor. That's con- ' , r 5 6 . fusing.to..me.. Both of what entries? ,rr v MR, CARR: Th entries where it lists like V71 ' 7 / ` akin; and where it says skin cancer history yes, or skin ' 8 " . c a n c e r history. There are.entries as you see, Counsel, as \ i *' . ; 9 10 you' have seen on that line for all.of those items. ' MR, HEINEMAN :` : Are you; asking him a question? ' J J . I i ;y MR.. CARR: .YesV" - ' r- > J *' V- V . V l \ - : Q (By M r . . Carr) We ma y use that additional data. 13 information you've received from Dr. Hertzberg to interpret . 14 this computer printout -then, , ` -, v . 15 mi tMOt , 16 A . But I don?t -- I'm not sure where that skin cancer .. history and cancer history, comes from, ; PEN GAD c o ;. B A YO N N E. N .J sOro. * ttZo\ IB " ' <2U&:1. * -MJt ' //- ", 1-7-f:r,-i. j Q > ,.Well, it comes from Dr, Suskind'e documents, ' This ^ ' 8' r( . M9 . Is a/Dr, Suskind document. .: ^ ,* - Mt R. HEXHEMAtNi.m* Your -:Honorir-V: , \ " `' ; ;- '20 , 1 *' -->'.4pl v/ - , 21, . - Q (By Mr. Carr) ' .It'.'.'ia a tape-r. . - MR. HEXNEMAN \ I object. H just said earlier that , ' .22 , 23 he ran that /document off ;on -aYcomptiter, ' > . f-' -\y v-,i V -r ; *. ' - , : . -MR, " CARR: v No, You completely confused It. : We had , 24 V the-computer !tape1 T M s i s a p r i n t o i i t from Suskind* s computer 1i ^ v j 1i y i* a j i !- T -V ' I *| f- -. ' : r r ;.. , r*> i t > *H-* v1,;t ' ,` S*T- -- ; S '* L f- ; 'n >- ; , . J' ' . . r:- ` 1^ 97 f) I tape, Counsel. 1. 2- M R H E XNEMAN i.';That *a what I'm saying * . - ; ' ; 3 \ THE COURT; Objection Is overruled. You may proceed, ,4 - Ifc:* Carr. "i . . , , * ` .s""1 1`` `` 1 J- 5 Q (By. Mr. Carr) Well, Doctor, the next person is Martin 6 number 171; is thatcorrect,, sir?,;V M d ' M a r t i n has & history >- <- ' *1 ^^ "r , s J r ` * 'v > * ' * ,- * T U| * f1 " '4 7- of being exposed, does he hot? Do you see that on page 3, 8, . Dr . Roush? Ha works as an operator out of herbicides i n s e c t 9 icides , worked all unito as a maintenance m a n , entrance 10 mechanic in all controlunits.; Y o u a e a that, sir? II A > Y e s B u t ,that herbicidesV insecticides may not; be 12 '2,4,5.-t. V , ;. \ \ \ ^ 4 13 Q The next one where h e worked in all units 'and pro* 14 ; ducts* That certainly is a history of exposure, is it not? 15 - A "Yes; . Yea, sir. ' *' ,# 16 Q -If you look at the Suskind tape record, h a treats .17-; Martin as exposed; does he not, sir? ;\ , 18 . A ' Yes',-sir;. ''1 . ; j r >*- - .;' ^ ** V*, 1 *' W - ^ >' ' 11 ^ * \ f ' f_ J .** - r I 1 * * P -, r' r" _ * j, f ` 1' J ` 1, - 19 Q A n d oh the cancer history, he has a history of . \ 20 bladder cancer, does he not, according to this record on page 21 15? ! / " J4 tV A -A? *r r- j - *%. yi ** i I t **1| -- Jiv- 22 1 4 -r .V V ; A ,"Yes;.sir. 23 Q The next one would be :Frahk W s t i number 242; is.that 24 .C. ; correct, sir?; ^ ' s J -v j v va ^ ij r _ \ J\ \ - ` ^-j Lf,. *"+11 hi ' ' * "** ^1,-c ` ' 1: vv v 1 ' PENGA c o : , aAlfONNE. N.J. - 0 7 0 0 1 FOBM 1L 24 B 93 1 2 3; 4- .s' 6 1 8 ; t, 9' r rf 10 11 il 13 14 15 " 16 ' 17,. ` 18. 19. 20 21 22 23 24 . V ,A ` Y e s ,'sir,.' ` v- ' > Q Acid he report that, he was a maintenance man. - welder and near th 2,'4,5-X accident in ' 4 1 / The interviewer undoubtedly meant 14?. /He also repairs, in all parts of the , 'j ,, j" \\ j plant,,does he;not, sir? . '"'l/'! / j / ./ A/ 'Yes. < . / ::V ! /. ' / ' Q That would be a history of exposure, would it n o t , sir? i ' r ' ' f- ;'/ .* . J-, ^ "v ; -- '/ A 'Yes. J . *'// M- " lh\ - ./ .!r', J . ' Q: As far as his. history, he reports a skin;cancer on page. 15/ ddes he not, sir?.; j. . : Vv A . YS.1 ' . _*'/'// , , , Q ^Xhe next one i s ;number 247. ,It vrould be M c G i n n . M-cG-irn-n-Miss reporter. And McGinn has a history of having worked in these departments as a maintenance m a n , plantwide , maintenance worker, climbed into the auto clave. He worked mostly building 4592, which has 2,4,5,-X in it. You see that,; sir?1'*'' .;/ ' ..// ` A *-/Yes.'; J./J;// 1 ' ' '' , ; * / . . Q So \ i h i. e **' - wou Vt '.,I l` d ; ^' . hav v"'i 1- s- e/ V- 0/i a . h (.,1- i - st '* oa\r,* y /V . o `V f l ->' h ' a v i n g been exposed, J '- ' would,ha not^sir?//'/^ '-U-/ ' . `I -Vj,* L i. Yes./. , * \r * \ ^ c' * 4 - -, - t* ^`* i '*. -V`* i;', ,1 ^ ' ' J , r 'h-vJ1 ,, J j ' " -_' -'" Li Q And his :history/ls^ one/of,skin cancer.., Three times, as a matter o-Vf ffa'ct.iJ - p- ' > / ' ,'j. , f - ' PENGAD COL. SAVO N N E. N .J, 1 A Yes. 2 Q Next one Waldorf, number 300; Is that correct, sir? 3 A Yee, sir, 4 Q And ho has a history of exposure, utility production S worker working all over the plant. Worked in the warehouse 6 as a loader, loaded out maintenance to trucks and railroad 7 cars, and maintenance pipefitter, worked all over the plant, 8 maintenance foreman, project scheduler and plant. That 9 would be a history of exposure, would it not, sir? 10 A Yee, sir. 11 Q And if y o u 'll turn to his history, we have Waldorf 12 la w i t h a history of cancer, do we not? 13 A Skin cancer. 14 Q Skin cancer. Look at the next one, which would be 15 Dunn, number 316. And he was exposed. He made, according 16 to him, he made 2,4,-D, and worked in the building In auto 17 mated process; is that correct, sir? .18 A Yes. 19 Q So he had a history of exposure, and in his cancer 20 he has a skin cancer, does he not? Does he not? > "i 21 ** j ({ . A Yes.. 22 Q The next one would -be number^ 324, McClanahan; is 23 that correct, sir? 24 A As X recall, there's more than one McClanahan. 1 Q Well, there may be, but this one Is- 2 A X V talking about an initial, if you think it 3 appropriate, 4 Q Look at number 324 and w e can get his Initial, I t 5a 5 William E, McClaniahen, is it not? He has a history of 6 having worked in Building 46 end 44, making 2,4,5,-T, does 7 he not? 8 A Yes, sir. 9 Q He has a history of having skin cancer? 10 A I don't have the page marked on mine. 11 Q Page 324. 12 A Ho; no. 13 Q Look at Suskind's printout. It will show you that 14 he's exposed and that he has a skin cancer history. 15 A It doesn't have it on the history form. i 16 Q Sir? ^ 17 A It doesn't have it on the history form. It saya 18 no cancer.. * -r . , - , ^ 1- \, , `r -H- * *\ 19 Q Well, if you look in that part--on page 21, it 20 describes something, taken from his forehead, and Dr.. Susklnd 21 has included him in the group that has a history of skin 22 cancer. 23 A Where? 24 Q In the computer printout of Dr. Susklnd related to 101 1 McClanahan. I.D. number 324. 2 A Mo* be doesn't. 3 Q If you will see, akin cancer history yes* Do you ' 4 /.,,see that, sir? 5 A Yes*. '. : 6 Q All right* 7 A- But where did that come.from? 8, Q This is from Suskind* & computer printout This is 9 computer tapes created b y Dr* Suakind. 10 A Hertzberg said that's not in her record* Hers does 11 not Include that statement, "skin cancer history 12 Q Well, when Hertzberg comes here, she can, if she 13 does come here, she can relate that and demonstrate that is 14 not the data from the tape. The information X have is that 15 this is the tape, data from the tape sent by Suskind* . 16 Mr . Heinemanj . Your H o n o r , I ,object to this state* 17 mant. That isn't evidence'thatvh@ is putting on. This <r * 18 whole thing is.hearsay*. What's more;different from Dr* ` .,'vy * :'4 1. ' r' 19 Roush telling w h a t ;Hertzberg told him on the phone then 2 Mr. arr standing up :and; saying what somebody told him? 21 I mean this is just crazy. 22 MR. CARR: Th difference is'that these are doctaoents 23 created by defendants and they're considered admissions. 24 Counsel, that w e can,use. They're exceptions to the hearsay BATONS E, N.J . ' 0 7 0 0 2 TOR H. 2 * B 1 rules because they are things that your agents and your 2 employees have said to us* This doptanent has been given 3 to us, 4 MR, HEXNEMAN:. This document was created by you, 5 Mr. Carr. .6 MR. CARR: I 'm sorry? 7 MR. HEXNEMAN: this, document was created by you, 8 Mr* Carr. 9 MRv CARRi This document was not created by me* 10 The only thing that was ,created by the people in my, employ 11 was the handwritten portion* The typed portion, la a print 12 out from th computer tape given and described in that 13 letter, given to us to be used in analyzing these data. 14 MR, HBINEMAN: Given to you by whom? 15 MR* CARR: .Dr, Suskind, youie agent. 16 MRl *HElNEMANr First'of all, you haven't proven that. %`>ii. 1. - .* \ ^ % ;i 17 MR..<2ARR: You have admitted that, Counsel* 18 MR.'HEINEMAN: ;\You, told .the Court and the Jury you 19 had this printout created from a tape* . 20 MR, CARR: From th tape that you sent-- all you do 21 is put the t a p e t h e tape that you sent in the printer, and 22 it prints it out from the tape. MR*' HXNBMAN: All r i g h t . . MR* CARR: As you well know, Counselor* 1 MR. HEINEMAN: Your representation is that w e in 2 this lawsuit gave you the tape. 3 MR. CARR; That is correct* 4 MR. HEINEMANs From which this document was created? 5 MR* GARR: That is absolutely correct* How you 6 understand it. 7 MR* HEXNEMANj H o w I've forgotten* Is there a 8 question? Or where are, we? 9 THE COURT; X think you made your objection or 10 asked your question between questions. So X don't think 11 there's a question posed. 12 Q (By Mr. Carr) Me were in the process of identifying 13 a history or no history of skin cancer; correct, Doctor? 14 A Yes, sir. 15 Q And because you are not willing to accept this 16 printout data as skin history one hundred percent, I'll 17 put a question mark on;that entry because of that fact, even 18 though it says skin cancer history yes. On this printout i- -;1 y \ y , 19 we'll put a question mark there* ` 20 A X understand. 21 Q All right* Doctor, the nest subject Is Lewis, Jamas 22 Lewis, number 375; Is that correct, sir? Do you see that, 23 sir? 24 A Yes, sir. I. 1 Q And Lev7is had & history of being exposed, does h e 2 not, sir, making 2 t4,-D on page 3? 3 A Yes, 4 Q And he* a then exposed and hi a history of cancer Is 5 on page 375 He has a history of bowel cancer, does he not, 6 sir? 7 MR, HEIENMAN; Objection to the form of the question, 8 your Honor. Mr, Carr assumes he was exposed. He did not 9 ask the witness that question, 10 MR, CARR; The witness answered yes, 11 MR, HEXHEMANs All you did was repeat what the 12 documents said. The witness said yes to what the document 13 said. _ 14 THEt COURT; * ;i Objection is overruled. '; . Go ahead, Mr. 15 Carr. ' -* 16 Q (By Mr. Carr) Doctor, working in 2,4,-D is the i, i , 17 equivalent of being exposed, isn't it, sir? 18 Yes, * : ; 19 Q All right. Thank you, sir. And he has a history 20 of bowel cancer, does he not, sir? 21 A Yes, 22 Q On the entry for skin cancer, on the computer print 23 out he also has listed there has a skin cancer history, y e s 3 24 correct, sir? 1 A Yes. But it's not recorded on page 375 2 Q You mean on page 157 3 A I m e a n on page 15 4 Q He reports the acne that he had on the same page, 5 however, docs he not? That he tried to burn It off in a 6 raw place on his face that would not heal* If you look on 7 page 21 he reports skin cancer of the left cheek. 8 A Yea 9 Q And so he reported a history of skin cancer on the 10 left cheek, did he not. sir? 11 A Yes. he did. 12 Q We've already shown the bowel cancer. And Fostle&h 13 waite, number 436. h a s a historypf exposure, having been 14 in the 1949 accident/ He was bn the repair crew. He went IS into Building 41 to repair it after the explosion. - L " r | ' -i 16 A Right. 1 17 Q And Fostlethwaite has a history of skin cancer, sir? 18 A Yes * 19 Q And the next one is Scarberry. Doctor; correct, sir? 20 Humber 113. Do you see that, sir? 21 A Not in that form yet. 22 Q I'm sorry? 23 A. Hot on the printout. 24 Q Look at the computer printout. 118, and identify 106 1 If you will vpleaee,, that Scarbcrry is twsber 118* 2 A -Y@8*_ sir*' `i,,;V .t1*.* 1-it-;1 . 3 Q And he has a history of exposure does he not, sir? 4 . A 'Yes*,.'.' * ' r - <5 *' Q And o h the-- w e have the history of having enumber 6 of tumors removed, does, he not? On page 16. 7 ' A Yea* ;/' 'V \ / " 8 Q And on the computer printout of Scarberry he's 9. listed; according to the interpretation you got from Dr* . 10 Her tab erg as having had lung cancer and bowel cancer; is 11 that'correct* sir? \ \ - ; '.*-r \ * - ** ' 12 A Yes* * /*,'/'// - fr f -x t * "* r"'^ / ' * '*f ' *\ r , ^ ^1-JfH* . -j -1,, " '*J r 13 Q liow# boctor / when ve a d d t o t h a t list the persons '/*' * j'.*. w ^ i ':->.v \ V rl .n r` 14 who have had ;a^history 6f exposure that w e have previously, 15 gone over; '`'from} this*i i 8 t ^ w e ^ v e \ t o y n b l d 8 p'Rogers and . / , 16 Gorrell all - <of w h o m have ^4 i-\i: t i. - \ ; vhad h i s t o r y o f * ^ J ^\ fJ, \ * ' *'- J . exposure and . ,, . , 'I '' ' all .17 of whom have cancer; 3.that correct? We've previously . - ", f i- ' *'' - y 18 established that. ;r -r-, ,, . 'J r !,/*'- 19 M R * .HEINEMAiTf Objection* your Honor; X.don't think 20 that's been previously-established* _ 21 .M R / CARRi It has been established your Honor* .22 THE COURYt' Overruled* Would y o u artswertha question 23 please .Doctor?- /- .24 THE WITNESS t You're talking about just ,the first >\ BAYONNE, 107 *1 V"J F- r ,1t * <'- ` ir L X' ' k: ..1 / ,r k '4 \. 1 -four?-'-.-; ^ // / j ' 2 r iv Q (By Mr * Carr) So* These bottom three* You said \ 3 yea/ they were exposed and yea, they had these cancers. ' 4;. ; . A Right* Right... j^ 5 ` Q Doctor p we h a v o h e r e t h e n listed in the group of 6 - workers that, were exposed, we have o n e , two, t h r e e f o u r , -'7 ,f ..five; six, seven , e i g h t /nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen, . 8 ' -fourteen,,-fifteen, sixteen . seventeen, eighteen on that . "9- ' p a g e , nineteen, twenty, twenty-onej twenty-two, twanty- ,0- .. three* twenty-four, twenty-five; twenty-six, twenty-seven, n ; /. twenty-eight, and w e have questionable^ So wa have twenty- . 12' eight; ' That .-*Vi^y *isLhi-o,'i...`"wL*a b y :ttio records"-that we 'r>;s.*\ r-i yt:i>"*K./y- - - -J,^**`,r%1/t,X*. i ' - h av - e twenty-seven *. 13 cancers., do we'not',' sir?r ... . 14 . =. / A* 'Yes.-'- !r' & ,j;h ii'Vi'i ' ..." IS "' 16 J' Q A n d of those twenty-seven we h a d ;one, two, three, . .- 1 r. r`'>-f t 1iX" ' ^ 1 .-1' 1 1 - four , f i v e , --five /;notcounting" the questionable o ne-- - 17 .* six, seven, eight, t en, eleven,' twelve, thirteen, fourteen, 18 fifteen skin cancers , wlth one questionable. W* have one, * 19 two, three, four bladder cancers, do we not, sir? 20 .21,,- :r.22 . - *'* A r...Y*es,' "sir;^ J ^ i - u*'. ' . ` ' *j .v Q ' W e have one,' two, three, four bowel cancers, do w e ' ..not, siri: :'. >, "* / * V * ri / \ ' > 23 ^ A If one man has two tumors/.you don't count that 24 . -.twice*.. / . " ''r` ---* PENCAD CO.. BAYONNE. N.J. 0700Z FORM IL ZAB > .If one has lung cancer and bowel cancer, those ar two surgeries /,arenft they\ sir?.1'/,'.' /' A Only one man har the cancer/ ' Q Oh, to be sura. But we are counting the number of . cancers, a r e a 11 w e , Doctor? . That * w h a t I 'm counting right now is .the number of cancers . \ / A All right. / \ /. "/' " ; Q, Let's say w e had about four cancers. A. You think that 's right? v. -/\/ Q / And w e have leukemia o n e , 'and the prostate is that C o i. r r. J e c v t } ? /* ' *` - - ' ; 'c; ' l: ,/ / -"'V *.? v.- ' - r A" I don't aee\the*leukemiaV Where's that? Q Leukemia' and prostate, t . f,a, c' ,'fa.ja >,>l A ' Yes ,, Yes. That was in the same person. Q Now,; D o c t or/lVll.hand you--please mark this exhibit. (Plaintiff1s exhibit -1473 v/as marked for ' " i, / *, .j. * ' t r ** p 4f * - j j. j * r" identification by, the court reporter.) Q (By .Mr, Carr) ,In a moment I'll hand you the exhibit. Referring to Table 1, D r ;tRoush,, for the exposed group of skin cancers, Dr. Suskind reports 3.9 percent having skin cancers, or 3.9 skin cancers, does he not, by history?. *, _ , 1. `" w 1 / -A Yes/ : v.'*\ -V.;', //. '/ ^ ./ /*' Q Which would ibe''eight skin. cancers?' r %* * * nj -< vt - * r j- ^ * * "y \ i- ' TMj t ,, f'A;*V,Yes. Yes.;' ;:;V:"`-\,' J '' ' j 'J\ :. Q He report other cancers Of 3.0, which would be six.other cancersi correct, sir? A , 'F o r a total of cancers altogether, correct, sir. yes* . . ;r Q How much.cancers did.we add up, D r #.Roush? We added up twenty-seven, did we hot, sir? ' ' A Yea;' ''V / . - . _/ ' ' Q And, h,.reportad t h a t ,T a b l a .1; only with regard to .- * :t ..VuV : 1` ^ p - ^ ' J ' . * -, >;. / ^ 1 `v o *Y v -j .r . . / .. fourteen,' dida't Y r ;/ , '/v ; H r . -'HE'*-l*H*EM*aA*. U*r'k>',"<':*x--.'\Ob;-J1a\*cfttj"\ion, *-'y*our Honor. The table is clear. 'This 'is a misleading'question. The table is clear that * it's ^; -a:i,p\ Jer:- *c ent 'rj* age ,r i'( of `' people. `.i v . He's reporting " , . ' * r<- - peop l e , and he's reported number of malignancies T h a t ' hot the same tiling. THE COURT?; -Objection-- -. . Q (By Mr. Carr) How many people had skin cancer? THE,COURT Objection is overruled.' . ..THE WITNESS j . Fifteen. t ' Q <By.Hr. C a r r ) A a d how many did ha report had skin cancer?' '*"'L ' '' * ' -*. ' ' A i -Eight. Q W o w , how-' can .there .be fifteen people .with shin 110 I1 -2 cancer., and-a truthful and, honest investigator report to the world at .large'that there's only: eight that have akin 3 cancer? - > ' ' " ^ ; ; ''1 4 X - I can't answer that. - 1 5 Q : Well, the answer is obvious, Dr. Roush. If there ' 6. were fifteen people ;with skin cancer, he should" report' that 1 ' 7, there are fifteen'exposed1people with skin cancer/ should , 8 ' he not,, sir? \^ 1 ' 9 ' A Yes *' - > 1-. .'-. 10 - 11 .U 13 , 14 IS ' ! Q -ButVhe reported only eight, didn't he, sir? : -1 . *. *A 11 `- * Q . ^ p u -:- / - v :,; - * ,^ '. YesyV 1 -. V - .. T. '--j f`i` -A. .y, ,J ;?' ,'r -.-`,Z f, ' ; , J>1' .-. /, U-,y '", - * v .** , * * Nearly fifty'percent;\dsn t 'that correct, sir? *1 11 '~ ^ *" .-. -'A.i, Yes. ^ ' '-1 v"; ' >' Pi' f'*" V'V\A J i HV ''r - . ' ,, '* ,,- ' L v , . " C ' ' ' l. > i ' ; f ; `i. ,* - j , 1 .' ' ';'k ' v , - , Q .Doctor; how'many, other cancers aid we have, other - t. than skin cancers?. Cancer of 'all sites except s k i n . ' ' 1,6- * A yWell-- ,V;. ' -'; ` r 17 . 18 . 19 -20 21 22 P 24 T-* r v'Q .. . .' H>o # w /m 1r > a n y t did ' he. report?. J r ' * ' * P-. A' six. y v -v ' " -r j .. jiV - 4, f "i4' ' '.'J* - #1 . Q 'Fifty, percent too light.' How can a truthful; and honest investigator report only six cancers from all-other sites, when in fact there were twelve? * ' 1 v ''j _ r " f - - ^ . - r j ' j ^ -A. I c a n 't answer that, . , / -r - ' *j. ' -` ' ; Q Y o u 'c a n 't answer that; Dr, Roush? A truthful, honest investigator would not and could not report six .cancers, , o ' ; -PENGAD CO.'. BAYONNE. N.J. 070 0 1 FOWA 'It, 14 B 1 other sites, when in fact there were twelve from his own 2 records. There were twelve. Isn't that correct, sir? 3 A Yes. Kl KOT)*#-- 4 Q Doctor, how many broader cancers does he report 5 as being in the exposed group? There's a footnote at the 6 bottom of the page there. 7 A Two. 8 Q How many bladder cancers were In fact, reported to 9 him? 10 A One. I don't know--I've forgotten what the 11 question mark was for. 12 Q The one is for skin cancer. 13 A I see. 14 Q This bladder cancer is five. We counted five. 15 Dr. Roush. 16 A Y e s . 17 Q And he reported two, didn't he, sir? 18 A Yes. 19 Q How can a truthful, honest investigator report 20 only two bladder cancers when, in fact, there were five, 21 sir? 22 A I don't know. 23 Q He can't, can he, sir? 24 A I don't know. I don't know the explanation. ,Q .-You've seen the. record and the history that these - ' ''-?" "L-1'1 *''1 i ( '_i v ?o r k ers " av\b4/' Nitro r r e po * r,4t*e$d t o J your paid, investigator 1 j.. Dr. \ Suskind, have you not sir? We've gone through those - ( p ^ 'J s>r 1 re'c^o'r" dks,-r; have '* t we not?,"' ' \i* %, ' Fh 'rl- p .u `, _ A Yes,' Yes. , , Q Apd they reported- these Various cancers to your J *', yv J- . \ ` Tj , t ,1'* ^T _ H " '* -L. -,1 . investigator, didn't they, sir? ; ' A-.//Yes. ' -y. ' y;/. i1**: '-!-<* ,,, y ;t '> rj'i "jirV^ * . . * "J. y^ . . 6^ B u t4 . i h* e :did-hot i v n - c l -u--d-e t h' bse in -his Table. 1. d-id he, sir? / `-' V :.u -7 ^ f\ ' 'j/A -<*_ i A- ' - 'i i f- i-, " J y' A N o t 1all' of t h a t "'7 y Q' 'Ha " had ':` 7th'e^.k[ni o' Aw`le7d7ge'b ecaus ~ e they gave him ; . the knowledge, didn't he, sir? ;. y/ V A Yes. .. ^ y y ;y ; '* Q ' .-He. then, having .the knowledge, and he deliberately created: this table,; did he not, sir?. '. ' \ A ; Yes. -' Q Then he intentionally mislead those that were going -r u J , ; _, pr ^ to ,rely' on. this tape, having the knowledge that these were, in fact, .the cancers that .were reported to him i s n ' t that correct, sir?^ ' `V y , v. 7 - v r, ''A. :I don't know hia explanation to ,that. ' Q -.Doctor, he,knew the facts, .did he not, sir? L : Q And, ha reported something that w a s 'not the truth, didn't .he, sir? \-r V'.- J-,-;{r - y A I `d o n 't know. "-'Vi /' ' ; Q W e l l , ,did he hot report that there-were 'only two * ,i , i- , > bladder cancers, when1, in fact'/ there were five? Did he not report that there were only two w h e n , in fact, h e k n e w from these records* that there were ive?r - , f ' -j * A J X d o n 't know what h i s 'explanation is. ` v. .; - S'- ^ S^ i 1( : 1 ^ i * .fc. / Vu^/*;*' Ai J,'v -.` * ' * t Q My. jquestioh Is not what his explanation is, but ' m y question?is .did he h o t 1know, that ,-there were five bladder ^ V - " - ^ ` ' -f' * ` `' ^' ' , - t l1 *.r \ ,,, I ,- 'cancers reportedto him and he reported only two,.that there - f ' '* *' ;r , V - '-' p y ,Jr >v *; ' . ' . . r ' '^ ` were fifteen 'skin cancers'; reported to him .and he reported , eight? All these things are of record, indisputable record. T h e y 're in his records, / H e knew these things. How m a y leukemiasvdid he report)/sir? ,J :/ *" A .1 don't see that he recorded iany. 11 , ' Q - He did;riot.. How many leukemias ^were reported-to < him? - A . r One'or four. '..v ' V ; Q * One', The bowel is the four, And on the bowels, - on t h e colon "cancer, , s i r , how many 'bowel cancers 'were re- . ported to "him? / -A* No; I'm talking bput here, '. Q No., That's what h reported to us. v- 114 .1, v2 -? .4 5 6 v .1. 8 9 10 ,1 1 - 12 1- 13 14 1.5 16 17 18 19 ,20 21 22 '23 24 A -Yes y l v, ,Q 1 wanted t o k n o w how many w e reported to him. A Five. ' '^ ; , q . Ho; It's four.' ^ , ` > - - A Four, five. Five, four. 'v Q How many "did he report-.to us, sir? \ V 'A ' nr, y. y y y r.y y y y y .... 1 s }r -i y - >v. -1 *b. Vy, - \ . / '/ Q ;He found one prostate dancer, and he reported one yJ ^ ^ f ,r A; ,, * * ' * ', ry t,, prostate cancer, didn't he j air?; 1; ' - y ' ; v' r , ^ ' l, *'.* \ ,, : J;'A yr '. " Q Yes. , - ; ; ... Z- ?! - ' Nc>w,b u r n i n g for 1second t the so. called unexposed group, sir, how many, bladder cancers were there in the unexposed group that he classified as unexposed that were found by the records to be unexposed? 'r A N o n e . -J . ,. v ^ y _V - y y . y /- Q How many did he report in this table that there were in the non-exposed group? ,y 1A -'None. - ,r y ' 'y . / j;; : - Q , Again,, he didn't report truthfully, did he,ysir? ; ^y 'A / - Ncy. y ,y'/"y 1y t <!y " . ; ; . y .. 1 Q . X hand you now Plaintiff'8 exhibit 1473 and a@k you 1 that is a correct represehtation-'-let m e have 1473A and 1473B. Give me two markerspleas--strike that. 1473A 'and B for' how. , ;r \ !' y J 'pENGAD CO..-BAYONNE, N.J. 07001 POM JE 14 > ," dH 'V r. . '; . 1 ...V- " "> '* ,, v'- -,y ' V.` r ' y Py ` '* 1'y \ - r. r ` -' ^ ` ,,f . , .; ' ' r^v^" *' *. ^ ' . 1^ ' '-Vr,, , , iis > yl : ^ 2' -^ `i '3 ; (Plaintiff 's exhibits 1473A and 1473B were taarked:for identification by the court reporter,) 4 0 Q (By Mr* Carr) Doctor I've handed you what's been 5 marked Plaintiff !s exhibit 1473, I'll ask y o u If that is - w6 ` .j 4.^ .^ ah accurate repfoductiori of t h e d a t a t h a t appears on what 7- -V *has now .- ,'i bean marked Plai i,. V*.,`(,,,. .- - _ y ntiff .V-v-v*.yi 1s '> {ae x.h i bit 1473A and 'B , with ^ 8. ' ;.b the.Ame x c e p t i o n thatr l don't5have (^ ^ a question mark by . *1 **' *' ; -9 McClanahan's .skin cancer , ; And let me put a question, mark . ` /' - V i -?/-- ty ^ '? . J .10 k on McCt l*ant a+hy'ian''s skin *. ca^ncey r^. * ` ' L L> *^ yC-* \a n ' MR.yHSXNEMANt.yDd you haveja copy for.iis? * ; ' r. t- 1 2 , ,, 13 MR. cASRt Oh, I'm aorry. MR* HEXNHlAJ4i What ia this document numbered? : * * 14 - MR. 'CARRt. i473,' 'Y m . ` .. n *N - -'i 15 L * r, : Q. ..(By Mr, Carr) Now, this is missing any, degree of-- GC \ 1 16 . Si. , the twenty-eight is GorrelI. I don't think it's in this 3oo. vv-,-17." exhibit. Yes, X need to put Gorrell in there. Let me p u t .. V. . 1 8 Mr. Gorrell's full name in there, if you would. I've only . lil " Io ^ 19 1 ; .20: o21*1 . r got part of it. Let m e put the rest of it in there. Doctor, V_h V ave , - *n ` ^ you had an ^ ^"-r' opportunity to 1 t_ check 'those r_ * against the "f ' .-21 * exhibit 1473A and Bi . 22. .; .' .A Yes., ' : .y - '' f" 23 Q And is it an accurate' reflection of this exhibit : T-f V., 1473A and B7 ;/ .y - <- l;:/. . vJ ,4;' ^ b; ^ ,<rr' ` ' i-^v \ '.*.,*`'d.r"u ^ V 'V \ ''. : ` - i':r ^ f " -' J 1 -' , r4 BAYONNE. N.J. MR. CARR: I offer 1473.. . . . MR. HEINEMANi, Are you offering A end B as well? ' " ",1 'F MR. CARRi . Yes, 8 well,;' .5 1 - -'.-y', ^ " [ s ' iJt s - r, , ^ - MR >. ;i,rXCAR' R- s"X '.lY-. esr. y oiu r >fl Hono `'"A )', r ~ r " ' ' H -, .J MR.' HEINEMAN 2-;Your Honor/ Iobjecfc to all three of the documents. ,, First ~.of .all, .they're based upon-- pur- -- l. { > :-L' i %,t s : ~ ;-v ' ' portedly to be based upon documentary evidence which w e 've previously objected to b n the basis of,.lack of foundation, and as t o t h e s e documents as w e l l / s i n c e t h e y 're based.,: entirely on that, there's no foundation for their admission T h e y 're ' 'r based *' upon -V he, a* rr' sa K- ' y . ` T h e r e 's *" ' ' ' no evidence about the 1 - ' v' * a t - ' 'r , - - criteria that Dr, Susklnd used in categorizing these people T h e r e 's no vidence other than asking this witness to speculate about what Dr.' Susklnd did or did not mean, or what the. document means or doesn't mean, and therefore, X object to it on absolutely no foundation being laid for ltd admission. / $**'* ` ' r ' * " . THE COURT t I *11 incorporate your prior argument as far as the foundation/v 1 think that there is proper founda tion , a n d ! *m offaring your other obj actions . , *' L over objection. 1473, 1473A and .l473B are all admitted ` -1 117 : 1 MR* CARRi Could X have I473C, please? V 4 *)Sr 2_.' 3. ; 4 5 , (Plaintiff's -1473C'was marked for identification r , -- * ,.Tj"-, b y\r / t{he, court reporter.) I 1 ''-r -J;T-V `i i 'V \ : -$ \/ l#,', v " ' i * * - -* ' < r v* L * - 4" t - 1 16 T/' '8 ' Q 1(By Mr . "Carry ^Doctor.; is 1473C an. accurate re- ,' ' ` , rJ I / ' - J _ ' \ - ^ ' * y J -* i > , 'i f ' J V. i production blow-up of 1473 that you havein your hands * 'r ,/ '' ' f *,r-> 'i''j,,*/ -* /.? . .there?-' / - -`V - V ^^ ,, *- ;. .. - 9 10 11 12 i 13, ' ..Yes, sir. : .'r v . - : ' MR. CARRi X offer 1473C, if it please the Court. Honor. MR. HEINEMAN: ; The same objection as before, your / '.\ * /L . 's: - THE COURT; Same ruling. Thank you. " 14 MR; CARR:t X' 11 hve to have the Jury's back, because ,, v--: * . /( . *-* . _ *r 15 the ;question ark is hoton tha McClanahan entry. 1 16 V 'jv;"'* - 17/ ( Plaintiff's exhibit 1474 was marked for 18 19 *^ 2 21 . 22 23 / 24 ' identification by the court reporter.) Q (by Mr. Carr) Doctor , X h a h d you now what's been marked Plaintiff *8 exhibit 1474, and,ask y o u :if that, also accurately reflects'the data shown on 14-- MR. HEINEMANi What are we doing now? ` v* , r >j ' ' .4 \ f * MR* CARR; rl'm putting t h i s l & b e l over a taisnumbered PENCAD CO.. BAYONNE. N.J, 118 labal 'r " .. Q (By Mr. Carr) Now, Doctor, you haven*t got your .copy yet, Counael.^ ThloJ isekhibifcjl474 that you now have ! ' ' ' , I - J J i.' * ;;v f : ` :f ' - 1 l- ' " < *-/ " v ' - r -, -. r - shoving the data in 1473A and B. ' A - : I have :`-J ''.l-o"o,kr 'e-d. 'At, }th- -i sv:-; t*4 - V*' ; * J' .r`"t -/ - t. `v : . , ^ J !_-* ~ y 1, 1 * , ,, -- Q > M y 1question is does it accurately reflect th data fl' *7 1J * - *- ^ . y _ r ^ >~V -V i' l ' y* ' f 'i ohowa in I473A ^imd^B'^i-lj 0 ^ '. .V*??' A, -Yes * \ MR. CARR2 X offer 1474 into evidence* yourHonor. . MR. HEINEHANt Object to it .your Honor o n the same grounds that w e :objected to 1473 and.B, and the' documents , upon which they were baaed. . / /^ ,1 THE COURT: Fine. Those objectionsare incorporated. It'a admitted over objection. :MR. CARRi May I have another listed as 1474A,please? (Plaintiff1 exhibit 1474A w a a m a r k e d for identification by t- the court* repo, rter.* *) _ 4 1*: , V w. , T -r ' j ^ 'f <} . (By kt. Carr) , Doctor, does exhibit 1474A, la it an, accurate blow-up of exhibit;1474? ,A , Yesy MR* CARR: I .offer 1474A* ': MR. HEINEMAN :: Sasie bbjection-- - ^ ,r ' \. 119 1 2 3 4 5 6' 7 8 9 10 11 12 i 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 Ou 20 21 22 23 24 THE COURTj Same ruling, MR. HEXNEMANi as .to-1474, your Honor. THE COURTs I 1!! incorporate those. The same ruling. v Q (By Mr. Carr) Doctor, 1474 reports only twenty- seven cancers, instead of twenty-eight, as shown, and this . C , `" -, ,r r ' can be accounted for, or it will accurately reflect because we have left out by Inadvertants the questionable skin cancer. All right. Now, Doctor, the affect-- you are shaking your head for the record. You meant to say yes, did you not? A Yes. Q All right. Doctor, this work study done by Monsanto relating to these various workers, this morbidity study, you announced that to the world at large with a considerable amount of fanfare, and you had It published, 1 believe, in your Journal of the American Medical Association, the most wide read medical publication, did you not, sir? A Mo, sir. MR. HEINEMANx Let me object-- object, please. Let me object to the form of the question. He said the study was done by Monsanto, and obviously It wasrib. It was done by Dr. Suskind. MR. CARR3 Done by Suskind for Monsanto. BAYONNE NJ. 700J FORM JL 24 B 1 MR. HEINEMANs Paid for Jointly by NIOSH. 2 . MR; CARR; Ha testified that it was a Monsanto study " ' *- I t * 1 ^ 'P 3 they gave the laboratory that was set up they gave the data. T - , t - * 4 MR, HEINEMAN; '..H e w a s NXOSH and Monsanto and I 5 object to the statement in Mr. Carr's question obviously 1*i ( 1 v r I 6 intended to mislead the jury* 7 THE COURT; Objection is overruled. Proper. Answer 8 the question please Dry'-Roush* 9 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, would you repeat the 10 question 11 - * 12 (At this time the previous question was read i 13 back by the court reporter.) 14 IS THE WITNESS t The newer Is no. 16 Q (By Mr. Carr) No, Which part of the question that 17 I asked you do you disagree with? 18 A It was not our study. It was Suskind's study. 19 Q What you're saying Is that you disagree with m y 20 characterization that it was Monsanto's study? 21 A Yes, sir. 22 Q Wo have established that it was done under contract 23 by Suskind, was it not, sir? 24 A Yes. 1 Q Entered into a contract with Suskind to do that 1 * - * ,i \ , v . , ,, . 2 study did you not sir? 3 A Yea. 4 Q And you agreed under that contract to pay him a 5 certain amount' of money for each worker examined, did you 6 not, sir? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And you paid him for each worker examined, did you 9 not, sir? 10 A Yes, sir* 11 Q And you agreed under that contract to give him all 12 the data that he needed to conduct that study, to cooperate 13 in every way, did you not, sir? 14 A Yes, sir. 15 Q And you furnished h im employees to perform that 16 study, work with him on that study, did you not, sir? 17 A Yea, sir. 18 Q A large number of employees, did you not, air? 19 A Yes. 20 Q And those employees that worked on this study with 21 Dr. Suskind were paid by Monsanto, were they not, sir? 22 A Yes. 23 Q And he s e n t ,the draft to you for approval, did he 24 not, sir? y 122 ) ; 2: 3 4' ' 5 .6 7; 8 9 10 12 13/ 14 15 16 37 18 19 20 21 22 ^ 23 24\ ' S ' ry VI ; ';*V >i, *> 1* 4 J H 'J V M4 f* i ..` A , t. , No}<<"/'h-k*e' d*'id - , 11- .r ' . - V - C , ' If1 i Vf . / * h K- T^ tj 1 -.1 j*. jt . '** * .. i/ . ' Q He didn't send--did he s e n d t h e draft to you prior 1 *' ' , ^ ; " '*wv- *,' ;-S ` 1 - - * ' ' ";>r ' iry -i-; 'V f`M ' 1 '\ to the t i m e i t was published? J' A Q ' A Not the final r e p o r t ,he did not send us - 'V *M * V il>! ' ` t , ' - He didn't send you-- he sent you draft reports? * y- ,- s - Draft reports, but not of tho final. Q Ha sent you draft reports and you made comments and.suggested changes/to; Mm,:;did yciu not, sir? ; - v.' A Yes. V\ Q And he incorporatedyoursuggeated changes did he, not, air?. ,///.* -//V/ .- , '* - _ ' '//' '' ' i` < ' pl j i ,* . \ *** ' A I 'm; not sure he did in the final report; v J1 rj Q Weil, have yo checked it? > , -t " A No/ * ' ` ^"\r"/ . Q Doctor, you made suggested changes to him. How many drafts did you see before the. final dr aft was published? / A 1 don't know. One or two. Q Doctor, your employees-were studied, !h e had access to all of your confidential and other plant records, he had " , - L ,r " J ' ;L r * ' a number of your employees;working with ,him, he .was paid ! r J r . 1"> " ,,' - -1 -j ^ y" j for his examination, you saw the and made suggested changes in the draft rreports,' all; before it was published, how much . m o r e -- .and it was done under contract with Monsanto-- how lW " ~ - . 4M *, ' v * r ** much more do .you need before you consider that it Is a BAYONNE. N iJ.' .07001 - FORM IL 14 B 123 % i ;* < r * * V*i j- i - i i" V j , ' ii r . 'iA -1 ;,r-- n \ n/-. -/v^v ; <f ,, - .. 1 1 Monsanto study? What more do you need before you can call "r ; .. v \ /; * ..A ;'*3 *is'; };<y - >, , , '. . 2 .. It y o u r s , , ; s l f ? r : , ' - -* 3 r* A I heed access to these records.that we didn't get 4 to. see. ' Have to have access to Ills computer program that 5 w e didn't rgefc to see. 6. l[ 4Q Doctor * all these records were sent to your attorney* paid by your attorney* were they not, sir?: - 8 MRi HEINEMANt Objection, your Honor. Wow, wait 9 a m i n u t e .;: First of all,; he cut the witness off while he 10 was in the middle of answering the.question. . il `, . (By M r . Carr) Did you have more to say? 12l I) 13 \ ;:Y e s V l"do/ ^ ' V J J*' THE COURT: Mo, no, no. .Wait a second, I d i d n 't 14 15 ' think you cut hi m off. . D o c t o r / did you have more, to say? THE;WITNESS t We were not permitted to look at 16 r the records. He wouldn't let us see them. He w o u l d n 't let 17 . us look at'the definition of exposure, and he had a contract 18 with the workers that he was hot going to show us these 19 records,' r' v .. J'* \ ^ 20 21 ! 22 23 24 Q (By; Mr; Carr) Where is that contract, Doctor? A them. - "" \ Q T h a t 's what.he told the people wh e n he went to see 'J' . *"r i- : \ - * ' -. ; * ** _* v ' J ` . *- *- sj ' , > , , , < -t . *r He told the people that he had a contract, that he w a s n 't going' to show it to Monsanto? ;/ BAfONNE. N.J, j j*. i 1 A That |s,;right. ""'V ' ' A 'i.'/Z-v'" ..J ' *".v 2 Q Doctor, have you ever heard of such a thing in your 3 life?. Have you aver seen such a contract? Who. told you '4 that? 5- r A . He told m e that. 6 Q He told you that ho. had a contract-- \r A . Hot a contract. 8 Q -- with the workers? 9 A He told them that ha would not let us see the records, 10 and he did not, . . ' II Q He told them that he would not let you so the 12 records? 13' A That's right. 14 Q Dr. Roush, I have-a document dealing with that 15 subject that I'll bring tomorrow, I don't have it here. 16 But we'll examine that statement as well, how that came n about. But i n point of fact, he gave you these,records 18 when your attorney requested them, did he not, sir? 19 . 'MRf, HEXNEMAN: . Yo^uFr Honor, let me object to that. 20 Mr. Carr knows that Dr; Susklnd exercised or asserted 21 .. physic!an/patient privilege with respect to those records, 22 and this Court overruled that privilege and ordered those 23 records produced, and pursuant to that, they were sent over 24 to us and we gave them .to Mr.. Carr/- Now, he knows that's ,* i ' . '' i--'"1; V': " 1 , 4 ; 4, ,,`N*? ,, ^ ' _ . . . . ? i,.,- i - ' ^ , .', v.,: ; c. ' : * '', > r r - i .* < . --. -,' '1v; V .. .'U-,V< V - V U ^;v ,, ' , ; ' ,J>, r " 'v, - *' ' Vf;'^ ,;-r ' i , 'T i ;: L' { vr^ - k ,1 ' , c i ; W S ' l '-J ^ _'V, * * / -' - j ' , t.- i y . i ,,-> * , * v . ^ i. . . * ,>i V J .. what happened; ' ' ^ ,u _ ; 'V. 125 \ MR;-' CARR: ;-Now, iwe;will correctly state what .occurred, Counsel; *The first records that were given were given in ?the Federal Cpurt to the attorney*s l Love, et- al, a n d .y o u 'll see the documents there in Which the Federal Court told Monsanto they could not use the results of this study unless 'Monsanto came up with the data. Because, of that condition, Monsanto then went to :Dr;; Suskind;and.Dr.'/Suskind, agreed r- to give the data. .This Court did. exactly the same thing, told Monsanto-- this Court has no jurisdiction over: Dr. Suskind He is in Ohio. He lsvnot I n .Illinois.. This Court told Monsanto that if you want to 'use the Suskind report, you *' -* n r '" '' '* * > had better get the. data to plaintiff's counsel, and with - , that having occurred, Monsanto went to Dr. Suskind and said,. ' "give us the data," Dr. Suskind gave you the data. That. - is an. exact statement of what occurred.., VMR. HEINEMAN:/^ I t h i n k m y statement Is exact.; "v * TH' COURTi / Th1objection 'is overruled. Mr. C a r r , you may .proceed. \ ; V- / ., ` v ' . , Q (By Mri Carr) . Now, D o c t o r , d i d you ever request of Dr. Suskind the data, other than ..under the circumstances/ \ that I h&y suggested occurred? J ^ ^* iv ' ` ' , -^ * , ' - .I,,, f m- \ -* ; 1^ L' - -- * ' v" -A.'- Yeis." i; ^ - . /V ' ` - 1L '- 1 .v ;t. \ Q And when .did you. dp that, ,sir? - A : ^' ^ When w o got-rail.through ;s"r` -* * , fm2 t ? i ^ . u }' : j 'n* V.*-tFh**e' ti: mr e hie j" was working' up the data# from 197? until last year,.'We asked him if we . could see the:data,.:He said no, because-^ / Q ,:WellT-, .^ / MR. HEINEMAH; Objection, your Honor. Will the witness be allowed to answer the .question? , . ; : Q (By Mr.- Carr) Do your have ;it ih w r itingt sir?/;. / \ v / T H E C O U R T : G o ahead,, Mr. ;Carr;''. V THE WITNESS: Why would'X get'it in writing? , V- - " > + r. " * ,1^ ^ ' '1 - ^ Q (By Mr. Carr) So you'd have a record of it so when - - > '. , .'' ' J z s * ' ' l. . .. F ' 4 I challenged the circumGtahce. under which that, statement was made/ you'd have some proof that what you're saying &. accurate. v - ,;A '. This was. done long, before there was a lawsuit. Q Doctor, I suggest to you that it was riot done.long before there was a lawsuit./ If you*1' c h e c k 'the -records, -dr, -your morbidity study/was,published in 1984. .This law suit had been on file for a year prior to that.time* . "7 ' ,MRi HIHEMANj Objection your Honor.: All Mr. Carr ha ;to do i s ,look.at t h e jdates/on the interview forms and - h 111 know when the study-b e g a n ;, That 's a n 1absolutely m i s - leading, question, or statement,, or whatever it is, and ,1 ;object to it... f : ; L THE, COURT: .The objection is .overruled. . 1 Q (By Mr; Carr) ".Doctor, did you ever request the 2 record of Susklnd in writing? 3 A Yes. 4 Q In writing? 5 A Mo* You don't do it with someone you know well. 6 Q How well do you know Dr. Susklnd? .7 A I've known, him for years. . 8 Q And he's worked in cooperation with Monsanto since 9 the initial Nitro accident, hasn't he, sir? Close coopera 10 tion with Monsanto, Since 1949. 11 A Y e s , s i r , 12 Q He has worked regularly and frequently in Monsanto 13 since '49, and all through these studies. He's been involved 14 in all these studies, hasn't he, air? 15 A Y e s . 16 KR v HEINEMANt Let m e object to the form of the 17 question, your Honor, insofar as it uses the term regularly 18 with no definition. It's misleading and it's indefinite. 19 THE COURT: Objection is overruled. Proper question* 20 . . Q (By Mr. Carr) Dr. Roush, you at Monsanto have used 21 this report to announce to the world through the Journal of 22 the American Medical Association that at least Insofar as 23 cancer is concerned, that there were only half as many 24 cancers as in fact occurred; have you not, sir? 1 A Are you t a l k i n g about cancers or people? 2 Q Talking about cancers, sir* 3 A He talks about people, not cancers* 4 Q I 'm talking about cancers* His table talks about 5 cancers. 6 A Ho, he talks about people* 7 ' Q Does the table talk-does It list the number of 8 cancers or not, sir? .. . ? A I t 's people* 10 Q Excuse me* Gould you look at the table and sea M whether It describes cancers* Hoes it talk about in the 12 group; bladder cancer, two? Does it talk about akin cancer? 13 Does it number the cancers, sir? 14 - A Ho,- 15 Q Do you read at the bottom of the page there, employees 16 bladder cancer reported two* 17 A ' Y e s .^ 18 Q And how many bladder cancers were there# sir? There 19 were five. 20 A Five. 21 Q How# Doctor, he has said there were only five-- only 22 . two-- was he saying there were only two people that had bladder 23 cancer? How many people had bladder cancer? Five people 24 had bladder cancer* t u- ` ^i . . v f;t a! VJ rr > ? < *i 129 ... ' / V .... ' / - . , r. . r'` ,, '1 i v, J. r^ ` . . J . 1 *t ,, A ^ *y^4Y*"e_ts,. \ ^ *p;1* _ *\ ^ ' v i' . -' \ 2. Q Some of thenr m a y have had m o r e t h a n o n e c a n c e r . 3 But we've only counted the bladder cncer. They've had 4 the skin cancer, perhaps . five times. Some of these people . "5 . have five akin cancers. - We've only counted that once. He's . 6 1 counted them once. How many people h a d bladder cancers?. 7' \ ^ A Five, \ ?. * i ; J'*k 1 ' ` 8 Q And how many people did he report that had bladder ` ' - - ' 9 - ;\ ;rcanicers? ;-V ' - 1 :~ X ` > ,7 ' ' v . ' V 1. 1 11 A .Two. .; - v . ;' : ^ Q Well,, how, D o c t o r . h e d i d n ' t tell the truth, did.he, a . : . ,1J3 sir? He told to the world that there were only two bladder caners, ;only two.people wtth bladder cancer when in fact / ! ">**i\. 14> 15 there were five. He told the world that there w e r e :only . * eight skin cancers, eight people with -skin cancer* ,How ; P e iGAD C O .; BAYONNE, N .J. o .0 0 1 FORM I L ' H B 1tOt 1116 r many people, in fact, had "skin cncr? Fifteen had skin 3o, - . '17'o 2 - 18 u ,,` '1 ,, J<o , 19 cancer* Fifteen people had s k i n `cancer.; How many people did h report had skin cancer r aii^ \A., Eight. '*- ^: o . " 20 , " hi * V . r...21 ,Q Well; now, Doctor, he told the world that only eight ' people had skin cancer, when he knew, that only-- that fifteen 22 >had- -and pos sib ly sixteen rhad skin cancer. r Now, Doctor, ,, 231 this is being used, this study goes all around the world. r., ' 24, ; J-= doesn't it,\ sir?^ J 5" 1^ ' ^ J ^ r. `'V 1* . i '( . * -.tr/ ^^ Fr*r.* \;i*-4'1 jj', '. h*y.'J-* f .A ?i*'".*J 7-`/r r* \ **. -v ' - ^ ,t 1 . . * '* f ' T^ " J ' , ^ ** ^ i ` ` 1 A Yes, sir. 2 Q This study, wherever dioxin is of concern to human 3 beings-- 4 A . Yes, sir, 5 Q -- this study goes around and people, doctors go 6 to court because this was published in an authoritative 7 magazine, that the American Medical Association journal 8 published this table, and so It is accepted as evidence 9 In every single court In this country, and I d o n 't know 10 where else around the world, but every single court where 11 soma person comes up and says I was exposed to dioxin and i 12 got bladder cancer, or 1 got skin cancer,, or 1 got bowel 13 cancer. This study can be used to show-- well, here, look 14 at it. Out or Monsanto, the people working there, only 15 two people had bladder cancer, or eight people had skin 16 cancer. It can be used to persuade juries that dioxin 17 d o esn't cause cancer. It can be used in every single--it 18 can be used ih the Viet Mam cases to show that dioxin 19 doesn't cause cancer. Doctor, it is a total fraud. Mow, 20 Doctor, you know the extent that this can be used for, do 21 you not, sir? 22 MR, HEINEMANsv I object, your Honor, to that speech. i . ' * 1 i , ' 23 X d o n 't know whether he- ought to have a brass band or some 24 violin accompaniment,\ ` ; ; 131 A:'- A* "MR# CARR;. X .Wish we would have some# How can yo u sit. there'and e e t h i e t h i n g -- ; -v ^'p MR; HEINEMAN: May I day my objection after you've 1 given your jury argument? 1/object to this as nothing but a speech, It ha s ;nothing to do with the following question. It's obviously" a jury summation and X object to it. I ask that it be etrilien, and X ask that the jury b e Instructed to disregard it, your Honor# * >. THE, COURT: T h e j u r y -- the question wis a proper .question. Your objection is overruled# In the future, I would appreciate your objection to ba made on the baeia of the legal point that you are making; Mr, Carr,;you m a y . 'proceed#- ?, J v -V -* r 1 , j . , ^ 'l' _ . ' v - *r. ' 1 -V "r ^ . , v `r `- ' ^ ' *' ' * \ Q (By Mr. Carr) Doctor, do you not agree that this, is .. . -- .^ - * -r indeed fraud, this study relating the cancer is Indeed a . .fraud? _ 'J' ' ." ' '' / A No. I*d like to hear what Dr. Susklnd says# . Q, Doctor,, you h a v e r e a d w h a t Dr. Suskind says# You have read where he recorded eight skin cancers when there " i * V , * s'J (^ m* \ ` , were; fifteen reported to him. You've seen that, sir. Isn't that a fraud to aay-- , ' a o;V t3o '/A '- : < \ \ /AV'J ' - V i - r i jk;v* . !/*'' . ^ . Q --1thv,,ar (^t one -* ' thing is *--> - -i , true when,, in 1 i: v- fact, something ', " . ' else is true? Xoh* t that a fraud, sir? .o . v. 132 j-: r 2 3 4 -,5 6. -^ -i7 ,,8 ,9 10 L 11 'U 12 13 ' 14 15 16 . ' 17 B A Y O N N E , N .'J . 11 18 a^ 19 Vr .20 "21 ,.. ; 22 : f J 23* 24 .A There are five-- ". ; *' Q Excus me, sir,>, Answer that question0 A Noi no. r V ' 7 '"'7/.. Q Ion*t it a fraud for me .to tell.you one; thing .whenf I know that something else; is the truth? Isn't that fraudu lent, sir?1- ?7 '7; " . A*" Yes. ' ! r > .V.-' t ` r- - t >7 " ' ' 1,, " Q Now, Doctor, this study, you know, you have been involved in. these cases: involving dioxin since you started working for Monsanto; have you, sir? rA No; I started in about, 877 Q Well, since f77 then. Is that eight yars now to date?. ; ( .\ '7 \ 7., . - 7 7 '.A Yes. * 7 : / *7-\ '7 Q Y o u know the power that these, studies have. Dr. ^1 *iV .'7 - ' " - i/ j.. 1 /' Suekind, from the University of Cincinnati, the'Kettering Institute,' dermatologists who has knowledge had an expert on dioxin, in nil kinds of circles, that Monsanto has had working cnprobably-- working the earliest scientists, work ing bn dioxin cases in the United States* since 1949,, and he reports some thing tbf be;: the `case 4whan the facts are some thing else. / You know, do you not know, Doctor, that what - ** * *< `* ^\ ' ! " 1', s-1 *>f Ar' ,: ;* he says In this table will b e ,used to support arguments that the dioxin does not cause these cancers? iT' * <''t /1 ` O V 3V JJ - h T> * *1 L ,; < i r% ' 2 '' r 1 1f 1 133 4h*J ' ,, I4.*J -. . .* < #i - * 3 ' - vYf h -iV' * '1*1- j, ` . "li , l41- * ,1 J . ' 1F 1 - j " ' 1 ^ u*t / 1 - , >. * ' -. A Yes.. ' ' - ' - ' r - ; i : _ j > "* L_*, J. ' .. . ' , . 2 ,, Q Doctor, have you adviaed the workers at Nitro-- strike / ;3 that. , Did you have any discussion with--! think you've 4 * already stated that you had no discussion with Zack when she - ~ r\ , 5- 6 left o u t t h e cancers that we have previously shown in her r" - A_ r ** * *t 1- . report Did you have anyi;dis cuss ion with Dir. Suskind or 7 . Dr. Hertzberg, other than the discussion you.had today about / , J '8 , ., Y 9 1 i l \ B' L * " L " . 10 their o m i s s i o n s o f cancers?-; '. V . A "''-No-* ^ ` `V " 'r ' - '* r -* , r. ' , Q Doctor, when you talked to Dr . - Hertzberg today, you ' l l ' knew already , and we have gone through a number of these cases already, and, you knew the point X was making in regard^ j , : to these': large number of cancers that existed that were not 1 4 reported, > did you hot,/sir? k L pN G *D c o . , b a y o n n 'e . n .j . 0 7 0 0 1 FORM It- 14 B ' ,r4- J ;Oec 15 *` r ; [ i 6 -* A Yes* sir. ^ k- ... . . `* " ' Q Did you ask Hertzberg for an :explanation. at that * O3 - ' -,, 1 7 1 ^ time/ sir? '. ^' i * , _ . ;; V ' *j j i, ; v .^ ;-2 ` . - is . -*o2Z r , - r ' I 9'4.; - *o - ' '* , , A / - No. . .... ' , , --,; -r ` 'M ' ,"*4 1' `^ "1 * " 1 t * L ' Q , Dr* Roush, didn't it concern you that -you saw h e r e ' , ' 4I - ' * ' 4 4ZOw r* '.* > L "T . * 21 ' ' `22 . ;v ' _ " r, ; S . C ' \ J ' L' : i i' ' ' 'v `r \ that these .medical records ;show, his to ries of cancers: and * H/r ii 'j : : - ^ ,v j- V --'c:; \ J .. - - ^ 1 H. ertVzber'Fg 1or Suskind, rather, was not rep' .ort1ing these^, was ' . not reporting-them.in theparticles that It.published? Didn't 23 . 24 it concern you, sir?- ; ' J: \ - /; v / t'K*'- ' A Yes. ' 1 - * ' ^ ; ^; V ' ( - Q Why didn* t you ask them about It? ' '. A, . Wa didn' t have enough time. Q Doctor, will you agree that leaving, out fifty parcent--he reports-fourteen and we've got twenty-eight. Do you agree that you couldn't leave out fifty percent, by accident? ; 1 A They didn't leave out fifty percent by accident. / ;Q They reported fourteen We've got twenty-eight. That's fifty percent they left out.: They were a hundred; percent in e r r o r ; ; Twenty-eight is twice fourteen,, is it not sir? * A Yes. But that isn't what.they've done. Q Doctor, they reported fourteen cancers in the ex posed group, didn't they, sir? A Yes, s i r . . Q And we have discovered twenty-eight cancers in the exposed group,, haven't'we, sir? . - r '' i- .- [ VJ 4 : a ,'Yes. 1 - / ' * ' * ' ` /; Q TWenty-.seven, if you omit McClanahan. r, r " 0 ( ^ i j, \ -Ar? . '> ' K r,' /i - ::JfVi ^ 1 .I rj ;j . V-' ' Haven't we, ,J , - ' '" 1 A r ':'iV T j h. -a,r t' i- s w * h a.t1'**. s *; J y1* , 1 v*-?l-isi. ,, ste i<f '\\ d \ there. '^ * ri 'i` i " " V * i - '- - . * , i ^; w , -; " , Q . Now;{can you leavevout- fifty percent by accident, Doctor? * {' ,J; '' A They purposely left out five. If they; have only 1 on who gets cancer, they only count it one cancer, not two 2 for each male that had the cancer. 3 Q Why wouldn't they report the bladder cancer? They're 4 reporting them separately. If they're just reporting all 5 cancers you might be correct. But they reported separately 6 tie number of skin cancers. 7 A Yes. 8 Q They made that a separate category. Now, obviously 9 \51s had skin cancer, and he should be in that skin cancer 10 category, shouldn't he, sir? 11 A But they told m e -- 12 Q Excuse me, sir. He had skin cancer and he should 13 have been included in the skin cancer category, shouldn't 14 he, sir? 15. MR. HEINEMAN? Let me object to this as calling for-16 THE WITNESS: I don't know the purpose. 17 MR. HEINEMAN: Doctor, please let m e make my 18 objection. I'd like to object o n the grounds that it's 19 calling for: this witness to speculate as to what is in Dr. 20 Suskind's mind. This witness has already testified in this 21 Court he had nothing to do with the preparation of this 22 material. He had never seen the documents or the reports 23 before, and, therefore, 1 object to it as calling for 24 speculation. ; j. * * r. "` t ~ ` j^ 1 V-*\ i ^ -" ' ' : "J ' , * ' ' r^f*. L ' * 1* 36 .,j' , . - 2: 3 , . THE, COURTi Objection is overruled. 1 don't think the question-t ; , :- 3 Q (By Mr. Carr); Could you answer that question Doctor/ 4. '5 so we can recess for the day? , 1 .r ? h They decided^- \ r/ . 6 Q Excuse me, Doctor/ My question la Edward Volz had v ' / . '7 skin cancer and it should have been reported should it not '8 ' sir? It should be included in the . group that had'skin cancer , \ 9 r j / s h q u l ^ j t h e , sir?' - ? ? / , V ' / ' . . ' -\ ;\ ' l b j ' r`- A - I'm not sure. L ' .. ' . - 11 ' / '> Q Is'there anything in the documents to suggest to you ^ \ 12 - that they should have not reported skin cancer that the m a n / VSP - 13 had? What--Is there a footnote there that says'Wolz had 14 skin cancer and bladder cancer and so w e decided1to. Just PENGAD CO.. BAYONNE; N .J. OJOOl /is. r _j * 3 *or . ' -16' ' count td\e bladder cancer?". But, of course, they didn't count the bladder cancer ,because they ,only counted two of 3ofr'/ *,' it: `' u* \ A,` *, -em 18 ' 19 .tiose when in fact there were five; isn't that ^correct, sir? 'V ' - ianjt;that;correct? >; ' ;/ / -' - (vv `i !S- ?: - 1 ^ , ; -- - - ; .- \\ , A - Is w h i c h correct ,?about the'bladder cancer? j<a J - 20 ^i hi 21 'Q j -A- Ycflvir.-''?'t. .,'..a'^'-?'./v, ?1r -;j;ci-v1i?` 'J. >1 j/; . Yes, sir. ' ,. : , 1 3 22 J j .? Q A n d t h e r e ' s nothing;to,suggest in this table that .'23' F^ V they reported that one person may have had two cancers, -is ^ ,24 , there, sir? ' 1 -- 137 J' 1 2, A .. They didn't s t a t a that. They should h a v e . MR. CARR: Your. Honors this is a convenient place - 3 for me. .4 J v THE COURT: Fine./ Ladies and gentlemen, aa X told V 5, "" you, wo were going to;break at three this afternoon* So . :6 .'r ' ,w e 111 do that at this t i m e . We *11 resume again tomorrow ' ; morning at nine. Besides ypur regular admonishments,. - '8 : > remember that you are not;to listen to, read or watch any- ' /` 9 10 11 v thing about this case, in particular the subject matter iri general; We'll resume at nine o'clock* Thank you. ,- J J --'j ^r *-_ J^ ^ ' 1j ^ ' * -y > * Court, is adjourned. ':j/' v. ',r. _ ` ; ; 12 13 .(Cpprt adjourned)* ; . m is 16 m .17 18 ;19 -20 21 . 22 23 .24 '/ < v r ? '* : A / ' V F v ' ' <; ^ ?' -;; jJ;'\ ]^ 1 A - A V v-'`V ;:> H v ? *\ ' ' ^"? t'* *"' /--: u r ' ,Y-V A. -" > v ,*v* u \, ` L * *W% L \ 4I 'I * i*** * 'A r- `T } }. a I'.. Kr.4-? 1 -j '***" *" - l . ` -< fV </ .' /i- /''i- A. : r<' vi/v ' f - - BAYONNE, N .J. 0 7 0 0 1 FORM 1L 24 B 1 STATE OP ILLINOIS ) ) 2 COUNTY OF ST. CLAIR ) 3 4 5 I, KATHLEEN W. BRUNSMANN, CSR, RPR, Official Court 6 Reporter in and for the Twentieth Judicial Circuit do hereby 7 certify that the foregoing tranacript of proceedings is a 8 true and accurate record of the proceedings had in the case of 9 Frances E. Kemnar, et al v. Monsanto Company, case number 10 80-L-970 had on the 9th day of July, 1985. These proceedings 11 had before the Honorable Richard P. Goldenhersh, Judge. 12 Dated this ib i-day of July, 1985. 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 139 __k ' / ` r, 'r 3 F \ - ' . ' -2" ' / ' J' ^ STATE OF ILLIHOIS . ) >: COUNTY O F ST* CLAIR / ) - < . .. l. ' - I f : * ' ` > ' *- 3 - 4,, . ; . , < - v: "; .. . . -J _ " - '< 1^ r .. -: 1 J1 m 1 *w 5, . I, HONORABLE RICHARD P . GOLbENHERSH, Circuit Judge . g- .6 'v ` - y i l " In and f o r t h e Twentieth Judicial Circuit, do hereby certify ' > f" * ' -r" . ` ' ' '/ * ,\ ' /' ^ - `` * ' *, ^ F "" * * ' * * - ' * .1 * ' f j J r" -f it** t that the foregoing transcript of proceedings la a true and ' ' : ; 8 - . accurate grecord of the proceedings had in the case oft ; 9 Frances E. Kemner, at al v , Monsanto Company, ease number : " i o .. * ' *r r ^U . '^ 12 - , 80-1-970 had on the 9th; day of;July,; 1985* , V Dated: this ' j -" 1\ ,L J_ ' ( -r * day. of July, 1985, . 2,_ JJ*f j" " -` \ 1 ^ j i J/ ,r i 1 -1 V" V l - - 14. , 1 " r s r. t4 : / 'l 5 ( p- , I j S .lb 3o o w 1 *1 ' _ - <D -- 16 /. .17 J, !' 18 \ ` 19 1 ( * J- . J :" ;;v ; ,, " -r - ,* r Jv - g ? ' V . i.:V [rr. " a . .g .. *?- a. d r . f*. , g , :. C g '\P' ' f ' ` ' , , ' ^ ` . > ' . " `1 -J . mi ij- ' ` " ` v. V i'T . , <f.i r, f-p, r - ' - J . J' - g - t i; J ' , ^ ^ . j * ** j* > ; x. * 20; .- -'j ^ % g * o i" *' 1 -j J ' " ' , ' J j ' . ' 1 ' r" ^ 21 'V ;" ' .. : " . ' .f 'j- '* l ,, ; .g . . 1 -.' v- ' - *' ~22 nL ^ rl" r 1 t %Kr * ^ * 23 '* r . * * * rr ' 1 _ r >' ' ' - U` *, - , ^ <" ' 1. ^ _1 _ ^ ^ gv f" , f ;* r r . j. . ^ r . , ' *' *1 ; - -t r .. 4 , 4 '^