Document OVeD3nJb1z8K1M9yabMRgXyM

Trial Testimony September 9, 1987 TTTTJ 1 Your Honor. We would make a very short 2 offer from the deposition of Robert Kaley, 3 an employee of Monsanto whom Monsanto did 4 not call in their case. 5 THE COURT: All right. 6 MR. LACEY: Beginning at Page 3, line .7 22 8 9 (Reading from video deposition) ' 10 Q Will you state your full name for the 11 record, please? 12 A Robert George Kaley, II. 13 (End of reading) 14 15 MR. LACEY: Going to Page 4, line 3. 16 17 (Reading from video deposition) 18 Q How are you employed? 19 A I'm employed by Monsanto Company. 20 (End of reading) 21 22 MR. LACEY: Going to Page 10, line 18. 23 24 (Reading from video deposition) 25 Q The only thing that you are qualified to do WATER PCB-SD0000062423 TTi'T 1 is to describe specifically what you know about 2 furan contamination of PCBs and what you know 3 about combustion of products; is that correct? 4 A That's correct. 5 (End of reading) 6 7 MR. LACEY: Going to Page 13, line 4. 8 9 (Reading from video' deposition) 10 Q The actual circumstances of use in a 11 capacitor manufacturing plant that might result 12 in the addition of heat with or without oxygen 13 that might result in a burning process or 14 explosive process with PCBs is beyond the scope 15 of your knowledge? 16 A I have no specific knowledge of that. 17 (End of reading) 18 19 MR. LACEY: Going to Page 44, line 3. 20 21 (Reading from video deposition) 22 Q What are the regulations that relate to the 23 existing plants of Monsanto and what they have 24 got to do with regard to their own electrical 25 equipment? WATER PCB-SD0000062424 37T2 1 A Well, there are a whole litany on them. 2 (End of reading) 3 4 MR. LACEY: Going to line 17. 5 6 (Reading from video deposition) 7 Q Can you tell me how they are disposed of or 8 do you know? 9 A The materials which are essentially graded 10 in 500 parts per million PCBs are incinerated in 11 an EPA approved PCB incinerator. 12 Q 500 parts per million? 13 A Or greater. 14 Q What percent is that? 15 A .05 percent. 16 Q .05. So, it's not half of 1 percent but -- 17 A One hundredth of 1 percent. 18 Q Okay. 19 A Excuse me, five hundredths of 1 percent. 20 (End of reading) 21 22 MR. LACEY: Going to Page 65, line 11. 23 24 (Reading from video deposition) 25 Q Are you familiar with the Binghamton, New WATER PCB-SD0000062425 TIT 3' i 1 York office fire? 2 A Yes, I am. 3 Q That fire involved a building served by a 4 PCB transformer, did it not? 5 A Yes, it is. . 6 (End of reading) 7 8 MR. LACEY: Going to Page 66, line 11. 9 10 (Reading from video deposition) 11 Q Have you followed the literature that has 12 discussed the effects or changes that occurred to 13 PCBs as part of that situation? 14 A Yes. 15 Q There were studies made of that office 16 building after the fire, were there not? 17 A Yes, there were. 18 (End of reading) 19 20 MR. LACEY: Going to Page 67, line 16. 21 22 (Reading from video deposition) 23 Q Now, measurements were made in that building 24 of the products of that fire, were they not? 25 A Yes, they were. WATER PCB-SD0000062426 TTTT 1 Q And there were products found in that 2 building that are furans, correct? 3 A There were chlorinated dibenzofurans found 4 in the soot of that fire, yes. 5 Q There were also chlorinated dibenzodioxins 6 found in the soot of that fire, were there not? 7 A Yes. 8 (End of reading) 9 10 MR. LACEY: Going to Page 71. 11 12 (Reading from video deposition) 13 Q Now, it is your opinion that some of the 14 dibenzofurans found in that office building after 15 the transformer fire were generated by the 16 heating of PCBs in the presence of oxygen; is 17 that correct? 18 A Yes. 19 (End of reading) 20 21 MR. LACEY: Going to Page 72, line 12. 22 23 (Reading from video deposition) 24 Q Now, there was also dibenzodioxin present as 25 a result of that fire, was there not? WATER PCB-SD0000062427 TITS' 1 A That's correct. 2 (End of reading) 3 4 MR. LACEY: Going to Page 74, line 24. 5 6 (Reading from video deposition) 7 Q If if I heat PCBs to the correct temperature 8 in the presence of oxygen, it's highly likely 9 that it will create some dibenzofurans, isn't it? 10 A Small amount, yes. 11 (End of reading) 12 13 MR. LACEY: Going to Page 86, line 11. 14 15 (Reading from video deposition) 16 Q That fire happened a number of years ago, 17 did it not? 18 A Yes, it did. 19 Q That building still hasn't been 20 satisfactorily cleaned up to allow people to 21 re-occupy it, has it? 22 A The last firm knowledge I have of that is as 23 of last summer; and as of last summer, that is 24 correct. 25 Q That is what? 25-story office building? WATER PCB-SD0000062428 J i 16 1 A It's a tall office building. 2 (End of reading) 3 4 MR. LACEY: Going to Page 87, line 1. 5 6 (Reading from video deposition) 7 Q I mean, the building didn't burn down, did 3 it? 9 A No. 10 Q The fire was all contained right in the 11 transformer vault, wasn't it? 12 A That's correct. 13 (End of reading) 14 15 MR. LACEY: Line 18. 16 17 (Reading from video deposition) 18 Q Are you aware of any other fires similar to 19 the one at Binghamton, New York, that have 20 occurred where there has been a product of the 21 combustion of PCB-containing fluids? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Tell me about the others you are aware of. 24 A There was a fire in San Francisco, 25 California. WATER PCB-SD0000062429 7TT7 1 (End of reading) 2 3 MR. LACEY: Going to Page 90, line 12. 4 5 (Reading from video deposition) 6 Q Are you aware of any other similar 7 circumstances to Binghamton, New York, or 1 8 Market Square in San Francisco? 9 A There has also been, I think, one or 10 probably two fire in Tulsa, Oklahoma. 11 (End of reading) 12 13 MR. LACEY: Going to Page 91, line 25. 14 15 (Reading from video deposition) 16 Q Are you aware of any other similar 17 situations besides Binghamton, New York, 18 situation; the 1 Market Square in San Francisco; 19 and the two Tulsa, Oklahoma, situations? 20 A Okay. There have been reported fires 21 involving PCS transformers in Chicago and Miami, 22 and I have no information about those other than 23 I know that they have been reported. 24 (End of reading) 25 WATER PCB-SD0000062430 ilia 1 MR. LACEY: Going to Page 97, line 17. 2 3 (Reading from video deposition) 4 Q Now, what relationship, if any, did you ever 5 have from a professional standpoint with 6 evaluating contamination in Monsanto's PCB 7 products? 8 A I did some analyses related to that. 9 Q When did you do that analysis? 10 A I would guess in the mid-70's --- * 7 5 -- * 6 5 11 time frame. 12 Q And when was the material that you analyzed 13 produced? 14 A I don't really know the answer to that 15 question. 16 (End of reading) 17 18 MR. LACEY: Going to line 7. 19 20 (Reading from video deposition) 21 Q Is there some way that that answer can be 2 2 determined? 23 A I guess if the analyses can be retrieved and 24 the lot numbers are on the analyses, somebody 25 could make that determination. WATER PCB-SD0000062431 T3 1T9" 1 (End of reading) 2 3 MR. LACEY: Going to Page 101, line 8. 4 5 (Reading from video deposition) 6 Q After the law department got through, did 7 you have any documents that had anything to do 8 with PCBs, left in your hands? 9 A Not from actual research type documents, no. 10 (End of reading) 11 12 MR. LACEY: Then after the deposition 13 was read and signed, the witness changed his 14 answer or added to his answer, "Subsequent 15 to this deposition, I located a file in my 16 records which did contain certain research 17 reports containing information on PCDF 18 levels in PCBs." 19 20 Going to Page 103, line 24. 21 22 (Reading from video deposition) 23 Q Did it occur to you that it might be 24 worthwhile for you to you review the reports that 25 you did before you rendered an opinion you are WATER PCB-SD0000062432 3T7T7 1 giving in this case? 2 A No. My opinion is based on an accurate 3 recollection of the general theories. You know, 4 my opinion is that there are low levels 5 dibenzofurans in PCBs. And that is my accurate 6 recollection of the work I did. 7 Q How many parts per million? 8 A They were in the 2 part per million total 9 dibenzofurans. 10 Q Okay. On the specific lots that you 11 reviewed? 12 A That's correct. 13 (End of reading) 14 15 MR. LACEY: Going to line 20. 16 17 (Reading from video deposition) 18 Q Which Aroclor products did you review? 19 A As I recall, probably 1242 and 1254 and 20 1016. 21 (End of reading) 22 23 MR. LACEY: Going to Page 106, line 5. 24 25 (Reading from video deposition) WATER PCB-SD0000062433 TTTT 1 Q How sure are you about the percentages of 2 concentration of dibenzofurans in 1242? 3 A I'm sure that they were within a part per 4 million or so of 2 parts per million, 5 Q How sure are you of the levels of 6 contamination within 1254? 7 A Same. 8 (End of reading) 9 10 MR. LACEY: Then when the witness 11 signed his deposition, he made this addition 12 to his answer: "Data in the above mentioned 13 file showed analyses of Aroclor 1254 done by 14 me. The results were 10 ppm and 12 ppm 15 total PCDFs. Other data take not generated 16 by me showed average levels of PCDFs in 17 Aroclor 1254 to be 16 to 17 ppm." 18 19 Next question at line 12. 20 21 (Reading from video deposition) 22 Q A part per million one way either side of 2 23 parts per million? 24 A 2 parts per million, one part per million 25 either side of 2 parts per million or so. WATER PCB-SD0000062434 TTTZ 1 (End of reading) 2 3 MR. LACEY: Going to Page 189, 4 line 21. 5 6 (Reading from video deposition) 7 Q You have not measured the transformer fluids 8 sold by Monsanto that were a combination of PCBs, 9 trichlorobenzene, and scavengers to determine 10 whether or not you could measure dioxin 11 contamination in that fluid; is that correct? 12 A To best of my knowledge, I have not done 13 that measurement, correct. 14 Q So, there may or may not be dioxins 15 contained in that transformer fluid that Monsanto 16 sold? 17 A I can't say that's impossible. 18 (End of reading) 19 20 MR. LACEY: Going to line 20. 21 22 (Reading from video deposition) 23 Q And Monsanto has never, to your knowledge, 24 tested a single one of its 25 trichlorobenzene-containing transformer fluids to WATER PCB-SD0000062435 TTTT 1 determine whether or not there is any dioxin 2 contamination/ correct? 3 A To my knowledge, Monsanto has not tested any 4 such transformer fluids, correct. 5 Q And Monsanto has never tested any 6 trichlorobenzene-containing transformer fluid to 7 determine whether or not the furan level of 8 contamination in the overall product is greater 9 than the contamination in the PCB component; is 10 that correct? 11 A I would say that'scorrect. 12 Q So, you cannot offer any opinion today 13 concerning the overall furan contamination of 14 transformer fluid sold by Monsanto that contain 15 trichlorobenzene? 16 A That's correct. 17 Q And you cannot offer any opinion today 18 concerning the dioxin contamination, if any, in 19 the trichlorobenzene-containing transformer fluid 20 sold by Monsanto? 21 A That's correct. 22 (End of reading) 23 24 MR. LACEY: That concludes the 25 plaintiffs' offer from the deposition of Dr. WATER PCB-SD0000062436 TT7 1 Kaley. 2 THE COURT: You wish to offer some 3 portion of it? 4 MR. FREEMAN: We have a brief summary 5 we would like to read to the Court, Your 6 Honor. 7 In the interest of time, we would like 8 to just read a brief narrative summary 9 instead of a question and answer format. 10 THE COURT: You may make the offer. 11 12 MR. FREEMAN: (Reading) "It is highly 13 unlikely that a dioxin molecule will be 14 created from PCB, although it is 15 theoretically possible. The 16 carbon-to-carbon bond of the PCB is very 17 stable and not likely to be broken and thus,18 not likely to form dioxin. Dibenzofurans 19 can be formed from the heating of PCBs at 20 very specific temperatures, but the yield or 21 quantity would be extremely low. United 22 States published research indicates that 23 optimum conditions for formation of furans 24 from PCBs takes place at about 625 degrees 25 Centigrade, with destruction of the furans WATER PCB-SD0000062437 Ji25 1 occurring rapidly at about 675 to 700 2 degrees Centigrade. Various investigators 3 have attempted in the laboratory to convert 4 PCBs to dibenzodioxins, and they have 5 failed. There has been no scientific work 6 to establish that PCBs can be converted into 7 dibenzodioxins through combustion 8 situations. 9 "Based on the laboratory work I 10 personally performed, dibenzofurans were 11 found in Aroclor 1242 in the range of 2 12 parts per million. No furans were found in 13 Aroclor 1016." 14 15 MR. FREEMAN: Thank you, Your Honor. 16 We would offer Defendant's Exhibit 17 3314 . 18 THE COURT: It will be accepted in 19 evidence. 20 Who is next? 21 MR. POHL: Your Honor, we would call 22 Frank Parker. 23 THE COURT: Mr. Parker, if you will 24 come forward, please. Come and stand in 25 front of the bench. Raise your right hand. WATER PCB-SD0000062438