Document O1r2GyBB8eQNaawoOgGVarJm1

TRI CITY COURT REPORTERS INC. 1 STATE OF MICHIGAN 2 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR THE COUNTY OF HURON 3 4 5 ROGER A. HALEY and VALERIE J ) HALEY, ) 6 Husband and Wife; and OONALO L. ) HALEY and FLORENCE S. HALEY, Husband ) and Wife, 7 ) ) Plaintiffs, ) 8 ) 9 va- ) ) 10 HICHIGAN SILO COMPANY, a Michigan 11 Corporation, C & B SILO COMPANY, a ) ) ) ) Michigan Corporation; MONSANTO ) 12 COMPANY, a Corporation; and CONCRETE ) SILO COMPANY, INCORPORATED, a 13 Corporation, Jointly and Severally, ) ) ) 14 Defendants. ) ) 15 No. 77 002593 NP VOLUME XXXII 16 17 Excerpt of the proceedings had and testimony 18 taken in the above-entitled matter on Monday, May 21, 1984, at 19 9:00 o'clock A.M., at the Huron County Courthouse, Bad Axe, 20 Michigan, before the Honorable M. Richard Knoblock. 21 22 23 24 25 300 PHOENIX. SLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 49706 13171 893-4321 9226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (5 I 71 792-47 I 2 PACE WATER PCB-SD0000037317 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS INC. 1 APPLARANGES: > MC GRAW & BORCHARD, BY: PATRICK MC GRAW, Esq., 3 and 4 JAMES N. WOODWORTH, Esq., 5 and 6 CUBITT, CUBITT & TROWHILL, 7 BY: H. DALE CUBITT, Esq., 8 Appearing on behalf of Plaintiffs . 9 CHAKLOS, JUNGERHELD & DELLA SANTINA, BY: WILLIAM E. JUNGERHELD, Esq., 10 and 11 ROBERT A. HAHN, Esq., 12 Appearing on behalf of Defendant 13 Monsanto. 14 DAVIDSON, BREEN S. DOUD, BY: JOHN DAVIDSON, Esq., 15 Appearing on behalf of Defendant 16 C & B Silo. 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 IS 17) 893-4321 3226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 46603 (S 171 792-47 1.2 PACE 5 2 R4 WATER PCB-SD0000037318 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS INC. 1 INDEX 2 WITNESS: 3 PAPAGEORGE, William B., 4 Direct Examination continued by Mr. Jungerheld S Cross-Examination by Mr. Woodworth 6 Page 5286 Page 5390 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 -oOo16 (Whereupon at 9:00 o'clock A.M., Monday, May 17 21, 1984, the Hearing was continued as 18 ' follows:) 19 THE COURT: Bring in the Jury. 20 Be seated, please. 21 Good morning, members of the Jury. 22 THE JURY: Good morning. 23 THE COURT: Mr. Jungerheld. 24 Mr. Papageorge, would you resume the stand? You're 25 still under oath, sir. 300 PHOENIX. SLOG. BAT CITY. MICHIGAN 4B70S IS 171 893-4321 3228 STATE ST. SAGINAW MICHIGAN 48803 1317) 792-47 1 2 PAGE 5 ? ft 5 WATER PCB-SD0000037319 TRI CITY COURT REPORTERS INC. I WILLIAMB_.PAPAGEORCC, o a witness herein, produed by and on behalf of the Defendant s / 3 having been previously duly sworn, testified further on 4 his oath as follows: 5 THE COURT: Mr. Jungerheld, you may proceed. 6 MR. JUNGERHELD: Thank you. Your Honor. 7 DIRECT EXAMINATION, (Continuing) 8 bY MR. JUNGERHELD: 9 Qi If I recall correctly when we left off last Thursday we 10 had been.talking about some letters that were sent by 11 Monsanto to its customers and distributors early in 1970, 12 and now I'm going to hand you Defendant's Exhibit 412 which 13 we had just started to get into and I'll ask you if you can 14 15 A. identify that please? This is a copy of a letter that was sent to distributors 16 of Monsanto's Aroclor products as a suggestion to the type IT of letter he may wish to send to his customers. 18 MR. JUNGERHELD: Your Honor, I believe we 19 had all looked at this Thursday before we ended so I'll 20 offer Defendant's Exhibit 412, which is an expanded ver 21 sion of an earlier Exhibit, I believe 91. 22 THE COURT: Mr. Woodworth. 23 MR. WOODWORTH: No objection as it's an expand 24 ed version of 91 that's already admitted. 25 THE COURT: All right. 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48709 (317)893-4321 322S STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (317)792-4712 PAGE 5 2 fl fi WATER PCB-SD0000037320 TRI-ClTY COURT REPORTERS ______________________________________________________________________________________________________ __________________ INC.___________________ 1 MR. DAVIDSON: No objection, Your Honor. 2 THE COURT: 412 is admitted without objection. 3 Q, Now, Mr. Papageorge, since it still is a little bit diffi 4 cult to read, even an expanded version, from the back rows 5 here, would you please read to the Jury what that says? 6 A. It says: 7 "Dear,Sir. Recently several newspapers and articles 8 have been published indicating that polychlorinated 9 biphenyls, PCB's, have been discovered at some points 10 in some marine aquatic and wildlife environment. The 11 quantities detected as said to be in the parts per 12 million and parts per billion category. It is claimed 13 that the PCB's found strongly resemble chlorinated 14 biphenlys containing 54 percent and 60 percent chlorine 15 by weight. We are distributors for products with the 16 tradenames Aroclor 1254 and 1260, and these contain 17 chlorinated biphenyls. As your supplier of Aroclor 18 1254 and 1260 we wish to alert you to the potential 19 problem of environmental contamination as referred to 20 in newspaper and magazine articles. Aroclor 1254 and 21 1260 are manufactured and sold to us by Monsanto 22 Company. For your further clarification and guidance 23 we would refer you to the attached letter sent by 24 Monsanto to its customers concerning PCB's. We have 25 also attached a reprint of a recent article from 300 PHOENIX. SLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4S70S IS I 7) 893-432) 922S STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 4SS03 (917)792-4712 page 5287 WATER PCB-SD0000037321 THI-ClTY COURT REPORTERS ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC.___________________ 1 Chemical tocuK, October 29, 1969, regarding water 2 pollution standards set by each state in the union. 3 With the present public and government concern with 4 environmental contamination good manufacturing prac 3 tice in the future may require care in the application, 6 processing and affluent disposal of products used by 7 your company. Very truly yours." 8 ft Hr. Papageorge, the letters that you talked about Thursday 9 of last week, one went directly to the customers, one went 10 directly to distributors, would you tell us what was the 11 function, then, of this particular letter you just read? 12 A. The intended function was to assist the distributor in 13 communicating our understanding of the PCB situation to 14 his customers of PCB products. 15 ft Still talking about the March, 1970 period, Mr. Papageorge, 16 I'm going to hand you Defendant's Proposed Exhibit No. 312 17 and ask you if y>m can identify that, sir? 18 A. Yes. That's a copy of a label that was in use -- put into 19 use in 1970. 20 MR. JUNGERHELD: All right, sir. 21 Your Honor, while Mr. Papageorge was reading the last 22 one we had an opportunity to show this to Counsel. We'll 23 offer Defendant's Exhibit 413, which is an expanded version 24 of an earlier exhibit. 25 THE COURT: Any objection, Mr. Davidson? 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4B70S (317) *03-4321 3226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 4SS03 1317)792-4712 PAGE 5 2 88 WATER PCB-SD0000037322 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC.___________________________ 1 MR. LAVlDUON: No, Your Honor. 2 THE COURT: Mr. Woodworth? 3 MR. WOODWORTH: Is there -- if I may voir 4 dire the witness? 5 THE COURT: Go* ahead. 6 MR. WOODWORTH: Is there a date on that label, 7 Mr. Papageorge ? 8 A. I don't see any date on the label, no, sir. 9 MR. WOODWORTH: And Mr. Papageorge, that 10 exhibit is in fact comprised of two different labels? It's 11 one label with that warning part on the right-hand side 12 stuck on, is that fair to say? One of those tags? 13 A. No. This was printed as shown. All the wording on the 14 label as shown. IS , MR. WOODWORTH: Okay. I've no objection to 16 that. Your Honor, if I may take a closer look. 17 THE COURT: Go ahead. 18 MR. WOODWORTH: Mr. Papageorge, what does 19 this down here mean? Can you tell us? 20 A It's ray understanding that that is the -- in essence the 21 reference number in the files kept by the Label Design 22 Department in Monsanto. 23 MR. WOODWORTH: Okay. Does that 53 have any 24 significance? 25 A Not that I'm aware of. It has significance in terms of 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 46706 (9171693-4321 5226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 15171792-4712 PAGE 5 289 WATER PCB-SD0000037323 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________INC._________________ 1 identifyiny tha label. 2 MR. WOODWORTH: But does it have any signifi 3 cance insofar as years are concerned? 4 A. I'm not aware of any. 5 MR. WOODWORTH: Okay. I have no objection, 6 Your Honor. That's part of what's already been admitted 7 as 49. 49 is a group. a THE COURT: Defendant's 413 then is admitted 9 without objection. 10 Qt (By Mr. Jungerheld, continuing:) Mr. Papageorge, when to 11 your recollection did Monsanto commence to use this label 12 that has been put up here on the board? 13 A. Late March, early April, 1970. 14 Q. And what was the use of this particular label? 15 A. This label was to be applied -- this specific label was 16 to be applied to 55-gallon drums of Aroclor 1254. 17 Q. And would you read for us the contents of that label for 18 the benefit of us that are far away that may have a little 19 bit of difficulty reading that? 20 A All right. On the left upper corner is the Monsanto logo. 21 And it starts at the top with the trademark Aroclor 1254, 22 chlorinated polyphenyls. 'Caution! Contains chlorinated 23 hydrocarbons. Avoid prolonged breathing of vapors or 24 mists. Avoid contact with eyes or prolonged contact with 25 skin. If skin contact occurs remove by washing with soap 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4B70S IS 17) 693-4321 3226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 1317)792-4712 PAGE 5290 WATER PCB-SD0000037324 TRI CITY COURT REPORTERS INC. 1 and water. Following eye contact flush with water. If Im> clothing becomes soaked with fluid, launder before wearing 3 again. This product contains polychlorinated biphenyl, 4 which some studies are shown may be an environmental con 5 taminant. Extreme care should be taken to prevent any 6 entry into the environment through spills, leakage, use, 7 disposal, vaporization, or otherwise. Lot number, bacteria, 8 net legal weight, 600 pounds. 272.16 kilos. Monsanto 9 Company, St. Louis, Missouri, U.S.A. 826.13-280.11/53." 10 Q. Mr. Papageorge, I'm going to hand you, now. Defendant's 11 Exhibit 414 and I'll ask you if you can identify that docu-' 12 ment? 13 A. This is a copy of a supplementary label for use with 14 polychlorinated biphenyls. 15 MR. JUNGERHELD: All right, sir. 16 Your Honor, I'd offer that. I believe Counsel has had 17 an opportunity to see this. Again, an expanded version of 18 an earlier exhibit. 19 THE COURT: Mr. Woodworth? 20 MR. WOODWORTH: No objection. Your Honor 21 That's part of Plaintiff's Exhibit 49 package 22 THE COURT: Mr. Davidson? 23 MR. DAVIDSON: No objection. Your Honor 24 THE COURT: Defendant's 414 is admitted without: 25 objection 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4B70B 15171 863-4321 5226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 4SS03 (5171 792-4712 PAfig 5 291 WATER PCB-SD0000037325 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS ______________________________________________INC._________________ 1 MR. WOoDWORTIl: Excuse me, Your Honor. I think I'm mistaken. May I voir dire the witness again, 3 please? 4 THE COURT: Go ahead. 5 MR. WOODWORTH: Mr. Papageorge, what is the 6 significance of that number? The lower right-hand corner? 7 A. That is, again, a reference number for the labeled section 8 of Monsanto's cataloging system. 9 MR. WOODWORTH: If I may just show you briefly 10 what's been admitted as Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 49, that's 11 a similar label, is it not? 12 A. Yes. 13 MR. WOODWORTH: Okay. And that's -- just 14 briefly look through that package quickly. Look through 15 that package and see if there's any other label of that 16 particular type, please? 17 A. No, there isn't. 18 MR. WOODWORTH: Okay. The one in this package 19 has a -- is just like this one only in the back page 20 there's a /53 again, is there not? 21 A. Yes. 22 MR. WOODWORTH: And what is the difference? 23 A. I don't know the difference. 24 MR. WOODWORTH: Well, I'd have no objection, 25 Your Honor. There is a difference between the labels. 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (St 71 803-4321 3226 STATE 3T. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (317)792-4712 PAGE 5 29 2 WATER PCB-SD0000037326 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS INC. 1 Simply there is a /'53 in the Exhibit 49 that was admitted, j 2 So this is not the same as the one that was provided to us 3 THE COURT: Apparently there's testimony this 4 refers to -- there's a filing reference number, internal 5 number, used by them. No relevance other than the date, 6 or anything like that -- 7 MR. JUNGERHELD: I believe you will find the 8 language is -- 9 MR. WOODWORTH: The language is the same. It'4 10 just the significance of the numbers. 11 THE COURT: All right. As I indicated 414 12 has been admitted. 13 ft (By Mr. Jungerheld, continuing:) Mr. Papageorge, now, 14 would you tell the Jury with reference to that exhibit 15 that's on the board, 413 -- or 414 -- 16 THE COURT: 414. 17 ft -- 414, what use was made of this label then? 18 A. This label was placed on packaged PCB's in the warehouse 19 that already had the previous older label without this 20 message on it. 21 ft 22 A. Now, this message dealt with what? This message referred to possible environmental contamina 23 tion and the caution that entry into the environment should 24 bo avoided by preventing spills, leakage and the like. 25 ft All right. And comparing the previous exhibit that we 300 PHOeNIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 40706 (3171 093-4321 3220 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48003 (317)792-47 12 PAGE 5?9 T WATER PCB-SD0000037327 TR: CITY COURT REPORTERS ____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC.____________ 1 talked about, now, that's 413, with the one that is now on 2 the board, 414, would you tell the Jury what was different 3 in terms of the use of that one and this one? So we're 4 clear in terms of how you were using it. 5 A. The previous exhibit was placed on new containers of 6 freshly packaged PCB's. They were then ready for shipment 7 out of the warehouse. The present exhibit is a copy of 8 the label that was added to a package that had been pre 9 viously packaged and in the warehouse and in inventory and 10 this was a second label. The original label remained on 11 the package and this was a supplementary label with that 12 extra message. 13 ft Mr. Papageorge, during the early 1970 period that we have 14 been talking about here where these letters were sent out 15 to customers, distributors, in the suggested letter from 16 distributors and customers, and then these label changes 17 with the environmental wording on them, were you also 18 ' doing other things at that particular time? Particularly 19 as it related to attempting to gain information? 20 A. We were doing many things at the time. We were trying 21 to make contact with as many individuals as we could who 22 may have some knowledge of PCB's. 23 ft Did this include any government people? 24 A. Yes. It included government representatives, university 25 representatives, industry representatives. 300 PHOENIX. BLOC. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4S70S (3171 893-4321 322B STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (SI7) 792-4712 PAGE 5 29 4 WATER PCB-SD0000037328 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS ""^INC. 1 g. Did you have any cuutacli with the Department of 2 Agriculture? --- ! 3 A Yes, we did. 4 Q, Had they, to your knowledge, addressed the use of PCB 5 as a pesticide extender? 6 A Yes. In the '50's as I recall there were some studies made 7 by the Department of Agriculture using PCB's to extend the 8 effectiveness of pesticides. That is PCB's in themselves 9 are not pesticides but because of their properties a 10 pesticide would stay in place longer and therefore, the 11 insect would be exposed more -- would be more apt to be 12 exposed, therefore, the pesticide would be more effective. 13 Qi Would you describe for us what was the nature of your 14 contacts with the personnel in the Department of 15 Agriculture? What were you trying to do or -- 16 A It was two-fold. In 1970 the EPA had -- was a new agency. 17 It didn't have all its people in places yet. The regis 18 tration of pesticides had been assigned to the Department 19 of Agriculture, so we were talking to individuals in the 20 Department of Agriculture that had experience with pesti 21 cides. And our discussions would center primarily around 22 what they knew about the PCB situation and what had they 23 learned as part of their pesticide program. Because 24 PCB's, if you recall, were initially misidentified as 25 being DDT and that's how the Department of Agriculture 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 46706 (917) 663-4321 5226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 46603 (S 171 792-47 I 2 PAGE 5 ? Q 5 WATER PCB-SD0000037329 1 became involved and TRI-ClTY COURT REPORTERS INC 2 MR. WOODWORTH: Objection to hearsay. Your 3 Honor. I don't know if this witness can tell us how the 4 Department of Agriculture became involved unless he was 5 with the Department of Agriculture. 6 MR. JUNGERHELD: Your Honor, he is simply being 7 asked the nature of -- he's not being asked of the con 8 text of the discussion with the Department of Agriculture, 9 but he's being asked the nature of the receipt of the in 10 formation, giving of the information, that sort of thing. 11 Also, I think it would go to his mental impressions as 12 a Monsanto representative in charge of the PCB program; 13 as to his impressions about what was the situation as it 14 relates to PCB, apart from the truth of the matter, cer 15 tainly. . 16 THE COURT: As long as it's clear it's his 17 impression whether the Department of Agriculture got in 18 volved I'll allow it. 19 MR. JUNGERHELD: Go ahead, Mr. Papageorge. 20 A. We also took opportunity to exchange analytical methodolo 21 gies with the representatives of the Department of 22 Agriculture. 23 Q. What do you moan by that? What did you have to offer to 24 them and they to you? 25 A We, in Monsanto, had developed a refinement of the 300 PHOENIX. BLDG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (S 17) 893-433 I 3226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48803 (3171 793-47 t 3 PACE___ 5-23.fi___ WATER PCB-SD0000037330 TRl-CiTY COURT REPORTERS __________________________________________ _______ ________________________________ INC.___________________ 1 analytical method that was first established by Dr. 2 Jensen and Widmark in Sweden. Their method was a pioneer 3 ing effort. It was a big step forward but it still needed 4 fine tuning. 5 Our laboratory took that method and improved on it 6 and also came up with basically three procedures, one 7 analyzing PCB's in water, the other analyzing PCB's in 8 air; and the third analyzing PCB's in solid materials, 9 such as soil, sediment, animal tissue, and the like. 10 Those methods we felt were good methods but we wanted othe:: 11 laboratories to try them and see how well -- how they 12 worked and how good they were. We were anxious to get good 13 laboratories testing our methods. 14 ft So did you share these methods then with the Department of 15 Agriculture? 16 A. Yes. 17 ft And did you have any words to say with the Department of 18 Agriculture concerning the use of PCB's as an extender in 19 pesticides that they had had earlier advocated? 20 A Well, our medical doctor had talked to their medical 21 representatives and in fact followed up with a memorandum 22 -- a letter suggesting that that particular use of PCB's 23 in pesticides be discontinued because it did pose a future 24 environmental problem. 25 ft Mr. Papageorge, did you have any contact with Dr. Burger? 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (3171893-4321 . 3226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (S171 792-4712 . PAGE___ 529-7___ WATER PCB-SD0000037331 TRI CITY COURT REPORTERS ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC 1 A Yes. 2 ft Are we still, by the way, talking about the early 1970 3 period? 4 A Yes. S ft All right. Who was Dr. Burger and what was the nature of 6 your contact with him? 7 A He was the head of the office of Science and Technology. 8 I'm not quite certain of that title but it was the 9 executive office of the president. Had an office of 10 Science and Technology and Dr. Burger was the head person. 11 ft And again, what was the nature of your communication with 12 Dr. Burger? 13 A Dr. Burger was active on the part of the administration 14 at the time and becoming as knowledgeable as he could 15 regarding PCB's, and he played an active role in the forma 18 tion of an interagency task force, or work group, to con 17 sider PCB's. 18 ft Did you impart any information to him? 19 A Yes, we did. 20 ft All right. And did he share any information with you? 21 A He shared what little he had but he was in a position of 22 not, at that time, knowing much more than what was avail 23 able in the popular press. 24 ft Mr. Papageorge, did you have any contact with any FDA 25 people in the federal government? 300 PHOENIX. BIDS BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4S706 IS 17) 863-4321 3226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 13171 792-47 1 2 PAGE 5 298 WATER PCB-SD0000037332 tri-city COURT REPORTERS _____________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________ INC____________ 1 A Yes, we did. Yes, I did. 2 Qi Who were those individuals? 3 A. I don't think I'm going to recall all of them but there 4 was a Dr. Gar Fitzhugh, a John Wessell, Albert Kolbye, 5 and Dr. Herbert Bluementhal. 6 Qi What were the nature of the contacts that you had with 7 these individuals in the FDA? 8 A It covered, again, analytical methodology, the knowledge 9 regarding toxicity, their understanding of an incident 10 that happened in Japan in '68, their program for analyzing 11 for pesticides in food products, which was referred to as 12 the market basket study, and, or course, our contribution 13 was one of how are PCB's manufactured, where are they 14 manufactured, how are they labeled, where are they used, 15 and the analytical methodology again. 16 Ql Did you provide the FDA then as well as the earlier 17 agency we talked about with the methodology that Monsanto 18 had developed? 19 A Oh, yes. 20 Ql Did there come a time, Mr. Papageorge, when you learned 21 of the presence of PCB in milk? 22 A Yes. 23 Qi And when did that occur? 24 A About the third week of March, 1970. 25 & And how did you learn of that? 300 PHOENIX. SLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 IS 17> 693-4321 5226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 15171792-4712 pAGE _52 99 WATER PCB-SD0000037333 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS INC. 1 A. I received a telephone call from a Dr. Hill who was with 2 the Ohio State Department of Agriculture. 3 Q. Now, let me ask you, Mr. Papageorge, if you will share 4 with us your impressions of the PCB milk situation as 5 you gleened it from your conversation with Dr. Hill? 6 A PCB's were found in some of the milk that was sampled in 7 Ohio and at that point in time it seemed to zero in, 8 or involve only two dairy farms. 9 There was an attempt made to get help from the federal 10 FDA regarding what levels were acceptable. 11 Q Excuse me. When you say that are you saying this was your 12 impression of what Dr. Hill had attempted? 13 A Yes. Dr. Hill asked me my opinion. I told him I wasn't 14 qualified to give him such a number. He was completely 15 frustrated.- He had finally, after attempts made, gotten 16 the level from someone in the FDA of five parts per 17 million in the butter fat of the milk and had taken action 18 to embargo the milk from two dairy farms. 19 He asked me if I knew anything about silo coatings. I 20 told him L knew nothing about silos or their coatings. 21 He asked me if I knew anything about Cumar. I told him '22 I was familiar with a resin sold by a chemical company and 23 to my knowledge that had no PCB's in it. 24 Qi All right. Let me ask you about the resin sold by a 25 chemical company when you were asked about Cumar. What are 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY, MICHIGAN 48706 (317)893-4321 5226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (5171792-47)2 PAGE 5 1Q.Q WATER_PCB-SD0000037334 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________INC.__________________ 1 you refer ring to? 2 A There is a resin in commerce which is referred to by the 3 tradename Cumar, which to my understanding is a registered 4 trademark of the Allied Chemical Company. 5 Ql Is the resin Cumar a product of Monsanto Chemical Company? 6 A No. No. 7 Ql Is Neville Chemical Company a different company -- 8 MR. WOODWORTH: Objection. There's no state 9 ment as to Neville. He said Allied. 10 THE COURT: He said Allied. 11 MR. JUNGERHELD: I'm sorry. Your Honor. 12 Excuse me. Allied. I'm sorry. 13 A Yes. It's my understanding it's Allied's product, yes. 14 Ql Is Allied another chemical company? 15 A Yes. . 16 Ql From your conversation with Dr. Hill, Mr. Papageorge, did 17 you have an impression of his -- did you have an impres 18 sion as to how he felt about the analysis that his depart 19 ment had done of the residues in the milk in Ohio? 20 MR. WOODWORTH: Objection, Your Honor. He can 21 state as to -- for exception to the Hearsay Rule a sense 22 impression, but I think this is getting too far afield 23 asking him to speculate on a sense impression, and I think 24 that's double hearsay. 25 MR. JUNGERHELD: I don't think that is, Your 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 IS I 71 693-4321 3226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 46603 1517)792-4712 PAGE 5 1 HI__ WATER PCB-SD0000037335 TRI-CITY . COURT REPORTERS ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC.___________________ 1 Honor. This goes to this witness's perception of the 2 milk situation in 1970 as to what he knew on behalf of 3 Monsanto. It's, I think, quite important and relevant 4 to his perception of what the situation was. Regardless 5 of whether it's true or not this is his understanding of 6 the situation. 7 MR. WOODWORTH: He can testify as to what he 8 knew himself or his understanding of what he was doing on 9 behalf of Monsanto, but I think for him, first of all, to 10 ask for an exception to the Hearsay Rule about a presence 11 impression, or impression of Dr. Hill, and then base that 12 upon speculation of Dr. Hill -- see, it's not only hearsay, 13 it's speculative. Asking him to base a sense impression 14 off of Dr. Hill's speculation. And I think that is just 15 too far afield and too unreliable. We have no problem 16 with Mr. Papageorge saying what he in fact did but I think 17 Counsel wants to take it too far afield and in that sense 18 it would be unreliable and tends to mislead. 19 MR. JUNGERHELD: Your Honor, I would think this 20 is much closer to the mark than what Mr. Haley's state of 21 mind was as a result of a letter to, or some communication 22 from Senator DeGrow, which was permitted because it dealt 23 with Mr. Haley's state of mind. This is dealing with Mr. 24 Papageorge's state of mind as a result of this particular 25 situation, which 1 think is closer to the issue of this 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAV CITY. MICHIGAN 4B70B (917) 893-4321 3226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 4B603 19 17) 792-47 I 2 PAGE 5 1 0 7 WATER PCB-SD0000037336 TRI-CITY ,, COURT REPORTERS __________________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC.___________________ I case. 2 THE COURT: Would you repeat the question 3 please? Can you? 4 MR. JUNGERHELD: Would I repeat the question? 5 Yes, sir. I was asking Mr. Papageorge if he had an im 6 pression as to the -- as to whether Dr. Hill was confident 7 of the methodology, or confident of the results obtained 8 by the analysis of the residues by his department. 9 THE COURT: On those two farms that he's 10 talked about? - 11 MR. JUNGERHELD: Yes. 12 THE COURT: All right. I'll allow it. 13 A I had an impression as a result of an answer to my direct 14 question of how experienced was his laboratory with PCB 15 analysis. And my offer to send him copies of our 16 methodology and my further offer to -- and we were happy 17 to analyze some samples if he could send them to our 18 laboratory. From that conversation I had a vivid impres 19 sion that there were many questions in Dr. Hill's mind 20 regarding the accuracy of the numbers that he was working 21 with. 22 Qi By the way, did you also refer Mr. Hill to Dr. Kelly of 23 Monsanto? You may have already answered that. 24 A 25 Yes. Initially i was under the impression Dr. Hill was a medical doctor and then when he began asking questions 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4870B (5171 893-432 I 3228 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48803 (3 171 792-47 1 2 MAGE---------5 30.3 WATER PCB-SD0000037337 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS INC. I 1 about effects on animals and human beings it, being my 2 practice, not to act as a doctor, I gave him Dr. Kelly's 3 name and phone number and suggested the two doctors 4 talk to each other on this subject. 5 Following that I called Dr. Kelly and gave him Dr. 6 Hill's name and phone number and suggested the two doctors 7 talk to each other. 8 Qi Did you supply Dr. Hill of the Ohio Department of 9 Agriculture with any literature? 10 A Yes. Following that discussion I sent Dr. Hill a collec 11 tion of articles that I had made up to that point. 12 Ql How about information on Monsanto's product Aroclor 1254, 13 or other plasticizers? Did you send this information to 14 Dr. Hill of the Ohio Department of Agriculture? 15 A Yes. That was part of the information packet. 16 Q. With this document marked as Defendant's Exhibit 31 part 17 of the material that was supplied to Dr. Hill? 18 A Not this particular one. The predecessor to tnis bulletin 19 was sent to Dr. Hill. 20 Qi I'm going to -- while we're talking about this document. 21 I'll ask you if you're able to ascertain from the back 22 page, or right back page here, when this was produced? 23 A That was printed in March, 1970. 24 Qi All right. Now, you may earlier have testified about this 25 perhaps last week, but as part of the activities that you 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAT CITY. MICHIGAN 46706 <S 17) 693-4321 3226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 IS 17) 792-47 I 2 PAGE ^ TO4 WATER PCB-SD0000037338 TRI-ClTY COURT REPORTERS INC. 1 undertook in curly 1970, wo tulkod about the letter and 2 labels and so on, was this brochure revised? 3 A Yes, it was. 4 Qi And looking at Pages 12 and 13 of this brochure, what 5 revisions were done, then, in March of 1970? 6 A There were many revisions throughout the pamphlet. 7 Qi As it pertains to the issues we're concerned with in this 8 case was anything done to this brochure concerning any 9 language relating to environmental hazards? 10 A Yes. On Page 13 of the bulletin entitled "Environmental 11 Hazards," that entire statement is a totally new statement 12 for this bulletin which was added as of March, 1970. 13 Qi All right. And I note that there is a paragraph -- there's 14 a two paragraph statement on Page 13. Did any part of tha-: 15 have to do with your conversation with Dr. Hill? 16 A Yes. The second paragraph. 17 Qt Would you explain to the Jury, please, what that second 18 paragraph had to do with your conversation with Dr. Hill 19 in March of '70. 20 A My conversation with Dr. Hill was my first understanding 21 that the materials such as the PCB's could be used in 22 silos and it dawned on me in other food applications as 23 well. And since this brochure was at the printer with 24 the printing plates being prepared I took advantage of 25 that opportunity to have that last paragraph added at the I 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4B706 IS I 7) 993-4321 3226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 IS 1 71 792-471 2 PAGE .. 5-3 0 5 WATER PCB-SD0000037339 tri city COURT REPORTERS INC. 1 last moment in Match uf 1970. 2 ft Would you read that paragraph to the Jury? 3 A. All right. 4 "Some specific applications where the use of PCB should 5 definitely be avoided are in paints and sealants for 6 swimming pools, paints and waterproofing agents in silos, 7 and other buildings where food products for humans or 8 animals are stored and as a component of any container or 9 wrapping used in the packaging of food products." 10 ft Mr. Papageorge, with reference to your discussion with Dr. 11 Hill did you have any impressions gleened from that dis 12 cussion as to whether Dr. Hill was going to do anything 13 in the State of Ohio concerning the silos there? 14 A. Yes. Dr. Hill in the discussion mentioned a silo company 15 that erected and coated and maintained silos and my 16 definite understanding was that he was talking to a re 17 presentative of that company and that he was working with 18 this representative to get the names of the owners of the 19 silo that had been coated with this material, 20 ft Who was that individual and what company, if you know? 21 A. It was a Mr. Egan with the Michigan Silo Company located in '22 Massillon, Ohio. 23 ft Did you ever learn, Mr. Papageorge, whether or not Dr. 24 Kelly of Monsanto had ever talked to Mr. Egan of the 25 Michigan Silo Company in Massillon, Ohio? 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4B706 1317)893-4321 3226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (317)792-4712 PAGE___5 3 Q fi WATER PCB-SD0000037340 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS INC. 1 MR. WOODWORTH: Objection. Hearsay, Your 2 Honor, as to what this witness can testify as to communi 3 cations between Dr. Kelly and Mr. Egan. We have had both 4 of those gentlemen already testify in this case as to 5 their communications, their contacts. I think it would be 6 too far and remote for this witness to testify as to their 7 communications. ' 8 MR. JUNGERHELD: Your Honor, he's not being 9 asked about their communications. He's only being asked 10 if he learned there had been a communication between the 11 two; not for the substance of it at all. 12 MR. WOODWORTH: The way I have a problem with 13 this. Your Honor, is when the witness is asked as to an 14 impression he has, then the answer will be "Dr. Hill said 15 this" and the way the answer comes out it's making like 16 Dr. Hill said these things and rather than asking the 17 witness for his impression, of which he asked the question 18 "What is your impression" then he said Dr. Hill said this, 19 Dr. Hill said that. 20 THE COURT: Do you have any objection as to 21 whether or not there was any communication and not what 22 the content of it was? 23 MR. WOODWORTH: 1 have no problem with that. 24 THE COURT: All right. I'll allow that 25 question then. Whether there was contact. 300 PHOENIX. BLDG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 1917) 893-4321 5228 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48B03 (SI7I 792-4712 page--siai- WATER PCB-SD0000037341 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS ____________________________________________ INC__________ I MR. WOODWORTH: I think in fact there is 2 evidence of that in the record already. 3 MR. JUNGERHELD: That was going to be my next 4 point. There was introduced a memorandum from Dr. 3 Kelly to Mr. Papageorge specifically referring to that. 6 And -- but that was -- 7 THE COURT: That was contact. What is your 8 next question? 9 MR. JUNGERHELD: I don't think he ever answer 10 ed the question. Your Honor. 11 THE COURT: He said it's in evidence. Go 12 ahead then. 13 A Yes, I was aware contact ~ discussion had been made. 14 Q, All right. Mr. Papageorge, did you youself ever talk to 15 Mr. Egan of the Michigan Silo Company in Massillon, 16 Ohio? 17 A Yes, I did. 18 Cjl And what did you tell Mr. Egan during the course of your 19 discussion? 20 A I really was trying to find out from him how he came about 21 to use PCB's in his coating. How extensively had he 22 used it. What other dairy farms to his knowledge were 23 having some PCB's found in their milk. 24 And then -- I don't remember everything in that con 25 versation but I was left with the impression that Mr. 300 PHOENIX. SLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 I3l7f 803-4321 3226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (317) 792-4712 page 5 3 08 WATER PCB-SD0000037342 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS _____________________________________________________________________ 1 Egan was well aware of where PCB's were used and how many 2 silos were involved, although he never gave me a number, 3 nor did he ever give me any names of dairy farmers. 4 Ql Did you say anything to him about the use of PCB as it 5 related to silo coatings or food use applications? 6 A. Yes. I told him that it was my understanding that they 7 should not be used near food, or animal feed, and re 8 iterated what I had understood Dr. Kelly to tell him. 9 So I just reaffirmed or underlined what Dr. Kelly 10 had told Mr. Egan. 11 ft Did you say anything to Mr. Egan when you talked to him 12 about what he should do concerning his customers? 13 A. Would you repeat that, please, sir? 14 Qt Did you say anything to Mr. Egan about what he should do 15 in terms of his customers? 16 A. Oh, yes. I told him you better tell your customers that 17 they could possibly have a problem; that they should 18 watch to see that their coating is intact and it's not 19 getting into their silage. 20 Ql That conversation with Mr. Egan of Michigan Silo did you 21 gain any kind of an impression as to what his position with 22 this company was? 23 A. The impression I have is that he was the principal figure. 24 The key person. 25 Ql And what was your understanding as to where he was located^ 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 IS 171 893-4321 5220 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48803 15171 792-4712 PAGE . 5309 WATER PCB-SD0000037343 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS ______________________________________________________________________________________________________ __ ___________ INC.__________ 1 A. He was located in Massillon, Ohio. 2 ft As a result of your conversation with Mr. Egan from the 3 Michigan Silo Company, Mr. Papageorge, did you have any 4 impression of the PCB situation in milk in Ohio as being 5 a health problem or what? 6 A The impression I had at the time was that it was not a 7 health problem; that it appeared to be a presence problem 8 in only two farms with some concern on the part of the 9 officials in the Department of Agriculture regarding the - 10 widsom of their embargoing the milk from these two farms. 11 And that the situation was limited to those silos 12 constructed by Michigan Silo Company in Ohio. 13 ft Mr. Papageorge, at this point, now, we're still talking 14 about March of 1970, did you know what the status was 15 of Monsanto's long-term studies? 16 A Yes. I knew the status of the ongoing studies because I 17 was receiving status reports. 18 ft And at that stage was there any discussion of any health 19 problems as a result of Monsanto's ongoing studies? 20 A No. There was an effect problem at the higher feeding 21 level in the test animals. 22 ft To your knowledge had this kind of study, that is the long+ 23 term feeding studies, ever been conducted for industrial 24 chemicals before? 25 A To my knowledge this was a first. 300 PHOENIX. BLOC. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 IS 171 893-432 I 3226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 4S003 1517) 792-47 I 2 PAGE 5 3 T 0 WATER PCB-SD0000037344 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS ____________________________________________________________________________________________ INC._________________ 1 (Ji Had Monsanto sought any assistance from the government 2 as to what kind of study to conduct for this kind of 3 chemical? 4 A. Yes. In our discussion with the Department of Agriculture, 5 and the Food and Drug Administration representatives, we 6 sought suggestions from those individuals regarding what 7 tests they would deem appropriate to establish whether 8 or not PCB's could pose environmental or human health 9 problems. 10 No one had any experience regarding testing to this 11 extent of industrial chemicals so we chose to follow the 12 test procedures used by the Food and Drug Administration 13 in the approval of chemicals for use in food. 14 Qi Were you aware of whether or not there had been any 15 epidemiology studies reported by that time? 16 A No, there weren't any. 17 Qi And how about any animal studies that may have been report 18 ed by that time showing health problems in these environ 19 mental concentrations? 20 A In March, 1970 there were no animal studies. No. 21 Q. During this period of time, Mr. Papageorge, did you have 22 any further communication with government agencies? 23 A With the government it -- are you speaking March of 1970? 24 Early 1970? 25 Qi Or continuing on. In other words was this a one time 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4B706 IS 171 893-4321 322B STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 4BE03 (3 I 71 792-47 I 2 PAGE 5 *1 1 ] WATER PCB-SD0000037345 tri-city COURT REPORTERS ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC.___________________ 1 situation or did yua continue to communicate with govern 2 ment people? 3 A. No. It was a continual dialogue with anyone in government 4 that we thought could contribute to the discussion. 5 In fact in those days it was a weekly trip to Washing 6 ton D.C. making the rounds of all the offices, see what 7 new had developed and to meet new people where possible. 8 So it was a continuing dialogue. In fact I referred 9 earlier to this multi agency group. I have forgotten 10 exactly when but we did make -- by their invitation I made , 11 or arranged, for a presentation before this group and the 12 group represented individuals from the Department of 13 Agriculture, the Food and Drug Administration, the Depart 14 ment of Interior, Department of Commerce, the Office of 15 Technology of the executive branch of the government. I'm 16 sure I haven't gotten all of them but it was a large 17 audience representing all the key agencies in the federal 18 government. 19 Ql With reference to contact with these agencies, Mr. 20 Papageorge, was it a two-way street in terms of sharing 21 information? 22 A. Yes. 23 ft Did there come a time when you made any presentations to 24 the comany's management committee? 25 A There were several occasions but there was -- at that point. 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. SAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 13171 893-4321 3226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 15171792-4712 PAGE 5312 WATER PCB-SD0000037346 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC.___________________ I in time this was the first formal presentation, yes. 2 Qt When would this be? 3 A. Late April, 1970. 4 Qi And what was your presentation, then, to the corporate 5 management committee? 6 First off why don't you tell the Jury whatwas the 7 corporate management committee? 8 A The corporate management committee at that time consisted 9 of the president and chairman of the Monsanto Board and 10 half a dozen dr so of the top executives of the company. 11 So it was a decision making group. The top level decision 12 making group in the company. 13 Q. And in late April then, of 1970, what was the information 14 or advice, or whatever, that you presented to them? 15 A The discussion as I best recall, was a summary of what 16 we understood of PCB's in the environment. And_at that 17 time it was still a matter of detected presenoeof certain 18 of the PCB's. Not all of them. And when I say certain, 19 it seemed that the higher chlorinated types were the 20 types being reported. 21 I also shared with them that our analytical methodology 22 had been refined and by using this highly sophisticated 23 new technology we were convinced that the reports that 24 we were receiving in terms of presence were probably very 25 true, that it was not just a mistake. 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4B70B 1317)693-4321 3226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (317)792-4712 PAGE 5313 WATER PCB-SD0000037347 TRICITY COURT REPORTERS _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC.___________________ I As a result 1 was proposing -- 1 proposed at the time 2 that some of the uses to which PCB's were put should be 3 discontinued; that some of the higher chlorinated PCB's 4 should be discontinued; that the system, however, there 5 fore which we could not find a suitable substitute but 6 were closed systems, where the material was contained in 7 equipment, and the equipment which could be maintained 8 properly we felt the the benefits far outweighed the risk 9 of environmental contamination. And that's the type of 10 program I proposed to the corporate management committee. 11 Q, What kind of uses did you advocate the termination of 12 sales for? 13 A. It was the uses that in Monsanto we refer to as the 14 plasticizer use. 15 There was another use as a solvent in the carbonless 16 copy paper application. 17 And the third use was as a hydraulic fluid in indus 18 trial equipment. 19 ft. Now, why would you recommend to the the corporate 20 management committee that sales for those uses be 21 terminated? .22 A. From our understanding of those uses we felt that it was 23 not feasible to expect that the ultimate user could control 24 this material enough to keep it from becoming an 25 environmental problem. 300 PHOeNIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 1917) 693-4321 5226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 1317) 792-47 I 2 PAGE 5 314 WATER PCB-SD0000037348 . THIC1TY COURT REPORTERS INC 1 ft And could you tuii the Jury the typos of uses, if any, 2 that you felt could safetly be continued? 3 A. Yes. We felt that the use in electrical equipment where 4 fire safety was paramount could be continued under the 5 right conditions. 6 We also felt that in heat transfer applications, again, 7 where fire safety was important, that with properly main 3 tained equipment we could support these PCB's. 9 ft You talked about proper maintenance of equipment. Why 10 would that be significant? 11 A. Well, it's important that the PCB's in a system be pre 12 vented from leaking in the system, going down into the 13 sewer, or under hot conditions that would exist in heat 14 transfer systems, vaporizing into the atmosphere. It's 15 important that the units be properly maintained, other 16 wise there is no control. 17 ft And what if anything did the corporate management committee 18 do as a result of the presentation you made to them in 19 April of 1970? 20 A. Well, they were supportive of the intent of my recommenda 21 tions, but they asked that I go back and come up with some tyo>w dates at which all of these things were to take place and 23 they stressed that I du it -- or come up with dates that 24 would make this program effective as soon as possible. 25 ft Was that done? 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 0171 893-4321 3226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 017) 792-4712 page 5 315 WATER PCB-SD0000037349 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS __________________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC.__________________ I A. Yea, it was done. 2 Q. And was this program implemented? 3 A Yes, it was. It was implemented. 4 Q. Mr. Papageorge, did you have occasion to attend a meeting 5 in Deluth in 1970? 6 A Yes. 7 Ql Would you tell the Jury what and when that meeting -- 8 well, when it occurred and what is was? 9 A The meeting occurred in March of 1970 in the water 10 pollution laboratory located in Deluth, Minnesota. The 11 meeting was called by the director of that laboratory and 12 consisted of the audience, the invited participants. Con 13 sisted of members of water pollution laboratories from 14 the rest of the country, such as the one in -- from 15 Corvallis, Oregon, the one from down near Pensicola, 16 Florida, the one in Athens, Georgia. There are several 17 laboratories that were represented. 18 Then, also, Monsanto was invited because of our 19 knowledge of PCB's, and as I remember there were several 20 individuals from universities also present. 21 Ql Now, what was it that you told this group of water quality *** and university people? 23 A I covered personally the description of how PCB's are 24 manufactured, how long they had been manufactured, the 25 kind of PCB commercial mixture that existed, the types of 300 PHOENIX. BLDG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (317)893-4331 3226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (SI7) 792-4712 PAGE ____5-1 1 6_ WATER PCB-SD0000037350 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS _______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC._________________ 1 uses to which they were applied and their properties as 2 we knew them at the time. And I had appointed another 3 individual to speak on the known animal toxicity testing 4 and a third individual to talk about analytical methodology. 5 ft Did those individuals appear and give their presentations? 6 A. Yes. 7 ft At this meeting in March of 1970, Mr. Papageorge, did you 8 form any impressions about what was known by this group 9 of federal and university water quality people? 10 MR. WOODWORTH: Objection. Is he talking about 11 the group as a whole or each and every person within the 12 group, or what? I think it's just too far -- again, I 13 don't know how the witness can form an impression about 14 a group. 15 THE COURT: Maybe he didn't. Let's get the 16 answer to the question. 17 MR. WOODWORTH: I wouldn't think the question 18 would be asked if he had -- 19 20 A. 21 22 23 A THE COURT: Let's get the answer. My impression of the group is that -- THE COURT: All right. So he did form an impression. Yes, I did, Your Honor. 24 THE COURT: Well, what is the -- 25 MR. JUNGERHELD: Again, Your Honor -- 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (5171893-4321 9226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 1317)792-4712 PAGE S3 1-7-------- WATER PCB-SD0000037351 tri-city COURT REPORTERS _____________________________ ____________________________________________________________________________________________INC._________ 1 THE COURT: Du you want to respond to the 2 objection? 3 MR. JUNGERHELD: Yes, Your Honor. Again, we 4 are talking about a very important period of time. This 5 is early in 1970. We're talking about what impressions 6 this witness had as Monsanto's man in charge, of the PCB 7 situation in terms of what the environmental presence was, 8 what impressions did he have about what the situation was, 9 and of course, one way that we gain impressions would be 10 by communications with people in positions to deal with 11 this kind of situation? 12 Now, again, in terms of judging Monsanto's conduct 13 we're looking at what impressions this man had about what 14 the situation was and then we can look at what he did. 15 So again, it goes to the impressions that he gained 16 about what the environmental situation was. 17 MR. WOODWORTH: What's going on. Your Honor, in 18 on each one of these when he's asked impressions he's 19 testifying about what Dr. Hill said about what these 20 people said. We might as well just let the witness answer 21 one question and have him go on with narrative testi 22 mony about what everyone has said about PCB's through the 23 197Q's. Because that's what these questions are eliciting. 24 MR. JUNGEHELD: Well, Your Honor, I'd briefly 25 respond to that by saying it was deemed significant, 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 IS 17) 893-4321 3226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48803 19 17)792-4712 PAGE 5 318 WATER PCB-SD0000037352 TRl-ClTY COURT REPORTERS INC 1 apparently that Mr. Haley's mental impression about the o situation at a later time were significant to see what he 3 did and I would respectively submit, Your Honor, that Mr. 4 Papageorga's mental impressions about this time -- this 5 time when the environmental presence was becoming known, 6 his impressions I think are just as important to what 7 Monsanto did as Mr. Haley's were to what he did. 8 THE COURT: I'll allow it over objection. 9 Members of the Jury, what he gleaned as his under 10 standing of what the status of all this was was his under 11 standing and not necessarily what the truth of the matter 12 was. 13 Go ahead. 14 Ql (By Mr. Jungerheld, continuing:) Mr. Papageorge, would . 15 you tell us, then, what if any impressions you derived 16 about the environmental situation as a result of this 17 meeting with the federal water quality people and these 18 university people? 19 A. I had a definite impression there was considerable scienti-L 20 fic interest in PCB's. There was a desire or a need on 21 their part to get Monsanto's analytical methodology as 22 well as samples of PCB's that would serve as standards to 23 be used in their analytical laboratories. 24 There was some work already underway regarding the 25 presence of PCB's in fish and other aquatic creatures. It 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY, MICHIGAN 48700 (S17) 893-4321 5229 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (317) 792-47 1 2 MAGE 5 3 1 Q WATER PCB-SD0000037353 TRI-ClTY COURT REPORTERS ________________________________________________ _____ _______________________________________________ INC_____________ 1 was still very curly. The investigators had not found 2 any widespread presence but they did find some and the 3 impression was, of course, on everybody's part that more 4 work had to be done for anyone to understand exactly 5 what the total situation was. 6 Qt Mr. Papageorge, did you agree to share any information 7 with these people? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. What kind of information would you provide to them? 10 A. I had at that point in time a collection of articles that 11 had appeared on PCB's as well as Monsanto's technical 12 bulletins. Monsanto's analytical methodology. Anything 13 that I had I was more than willing to share with anyone 14 who was interested and I offered this and I had many re 15 quests which were honored. 16 Ql After your Deluth meeting did you take any more steps 17 relating to learning about the environmental situation as 18 it related to PCB? And if so, what? 19 A. I think the next large meeting that we held occurred during 20 a trip to Europe. 21 Ql And when was that, sir? 22 A It was the latter part of April, early part of May, 1970. 23 Ui And why did you go to Europe at that time? 24 A Well, for several reasons. One, for example, we had a 25 great interest in talking with Dr. Jensen in Sweden. 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4870B IS I 7) 893-4321 5228 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 1317)792-4712 PACE ____ 532 0_ WATER PCB-SD0000037354 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS INC 1 y, Who's Dr. Jensun, by way of brief -- ~1 2 A Dr. Jensen was the individual who was successful in 3 analyzing samples and detecting PCB's in these samples. 4 And he is the first one to do so. 5 Qi When did he do that? 6 A. It was -- I think his work was in about the middle '60's. 7 He finally reported it at some academic meeting in '66. 8 1966. 9 Qi All right, sir. 10 By the way, who, if anybody, went with you to that 11 meeting? 12 A I had a representative of Monsanto's Medical Department, 13 Mr. Wheeler. And a representative of our analytical 14 laboratory, Dr. Keller. 15 Ql And did you. have in mind to do anything in addition to 16 meet with Dr. Jensen who had made that '66 presentation? 17 A Yes. We made arrangements to meet with the representa 18 tives of the producers of PCB's in Europe. 19 Ql Why? 20 A To share, again, our understanding with their understand 21 ing. To inform them of our planned withdrawal program, 22 limiting the uses of PCB, and to determine from them what 23 their plans were regarding their continued production of 24 PCB's. 25 Qi Now, did you in fact meet with the European manufacturers 300 PHOENIX. BLDG. BAV CITY. MICHIGAN 4870B (3171893-4321 5228 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (3171792-4712 PAGE 5.1 21 WATER PCB-SD0000037355 1 of PCB? 2 A. Yes. tri-city COURT REPORTERS INC. 3 Qi And what did you tell them then? 4 A. Well, we told them everything we knew regarding reports 5 of presence, some of which they were aware of and others 6 were new to them. We told them of our presentation of 7 our corporate management committee regarding withdrawal 8 from some of the uses of PCB's and informed them that we 9 expected approval any moment which in truth happened while 10 we were in Europe. We were able to confirm with these 11 individuals that Monsanto's program was approved and would 12 be implemented immediately. 13 Ql To your knowledge, Mr. Papageorge, did the European manu 14 facturers ever withdraw from the market? That is to say IS did they ever stop making PCB's for open or plasticizer 16 uses? 17 A. No, they did not agree with Monsanto's assessment of the 18 situation. 19 d Do they continue today to make PCB's? 20 A. That is correct. 21 ft Did you ever have an opportunity to see Dr. Jensen? .22 A. We did not get to talk to Dr. Jensen. We spoke with his 23 supervisor. Dr. Widmark. 24 Qi And what did you tell Dr. Widmark? 25 A I don't remember the specifics. We did talk about our 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. SAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4870S (SI7I 893-4321 522a STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48803 IS 1 7) 792-47 I 2 PAGE 5322 WATER PCB-SD0000037356 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________INC._________________ I new analytical methodology. That we were convinced that 2 the presence as reported in the environment was very 3 likely. 4 On the other hand we had some questions or I had some 5 questions about the accuracy of the numbers. But the fact 6 7 8 9 A. 10 that it was present was acceptable. We understood that. We agreed that their method was so new that they -- MR. WOODWORTH: Objection. Hearsay. It's my understanding -- - THE COURT: Excuse me. Excuse me. 11 Qi Mr. Papageorge, as opposed to telling us what Dr. Widmark 12 told you in so many words, that you cannot do, we would, 13 however -- I would, however, as you whether or not you had 14 not gained an impression from talking with Dr. Widmark as 15 to whether or not Dr. Widmark or Jensen had yet done any 16 17 A. thing further than what they had reported? They had no further work. 18 Qi And did you see anybody else over there? 19 A Yes. We talked with the representatives of the agencies 20 in the United Kingdom who were involved with an incident 21 that occurred in the North Sea in which wild birds, sea 22 birds, and seals were found to wash on the beach following 23 a storm and these creatures were reported in the press as 24 being emaciated and the initial suspicions reported were 25 that DDT and PCB's could well have led to their emaciated 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. SAT CITY. MICHIGAN 48708 IS I 7) 893-432-1 9226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 19 I 71 792-471 2 PAGE ___^323__ WATER PCB-SD0000037357 I condition. COURT reporters INC. 2 Q. All right. Now, what laboratory was that? 3 A There were two agencies, as I recall. One is the principal, 4 labatory in the United Kingdom which is called the office 5 of the chemists. And I talked with him again about analy 6 tical methodologies and the state of the art as they 7 understood it. 8 ft Did you give them information concerning Monsanto's 9 methodologies? 10 A Yes. We left with them -- I left with them copies of the 11 procedures that we had taken along with us. 12 Q. And were there any other laboratories or government labora-- 13 tories that you visited in Britain? 14 A The other agency was the ministery and I have forgotten 15 its official title, but it was the agency that was involved 16 with wild birds and their interest, of course, was in the 17 sea birds and the presence of PCB's in them and how it 18 might be affecting the birds themselves as well as the 19 reproduction abilities of the bird. 20 Qi And did you gain any impressions from any of these govern 21 ment agencies as to what if anything they had done in the 22 way of analyzing for PCB's? 23 A They had, in my understanding, done extensive analysis in 24 Dr. Jensen's analytical methodology and they were finding 25 PCB's in some of the tissues of these animals. But the 300 PHOENIX. SLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 1317) 683-4321 5226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 IS I 7) 792-47 1 2 PAGE 5 3 2 4 WATER PCB-SD0000037358 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS INC. 1 levels were low and nothing was known at the time as to 2 what effect these low levels could have or have had among 3 these seals and birds. 4 Qi Mr. Papageorge, did you have any contact with any faciliti^ 5 that Monsanto had there? 6 A. Yes. I went to the Monsanto plant in Wales where Monsanto 7 PCB's were manufactured, and reviewed with the staff at 8 the site our total program, analysis, waste reduction, 9 control of waste, control of emsissions, proper labeling, 10 and our phase-out program. 11 Q, Was the plant at Britain to take part in the phase-out 12 program? 13 A. Yes. 14 Qi And at this point as applied to the British plant, the 15 British Monsanto plant what then was that to do? 16 A The principal chore that they had to do was to make cer 17 tain that their handling of wastes was proper such that th^ 18 PCB's will not get into the sewers, that their maintenance 19 was good enough to prevent any vapors from escaping into 20 the atmosphere, that their labels were redesigned just 21 as they were in the United States, so that the proper 22 information was contained on them, and to inform their 23 customers just as we did in the United States, about the . 24 knowledge of PCB's in the environment, and to inform them 25 of the phase-out program. 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48708 IS 171 893-4321 5226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 15171 792-4712 PAGE . 522^ WATER PCB-SD0000037359 TRICITY COURT REPORTERS INC.___________________ 1 Ql Did you sue anyone else in Europe concerning the PCB 2 situation while you were there? 3 A. We visited the researchers at the University of Utrecht 4 in the Netherlands. 5 Ql Why did you do that? 6 A. Well, those researchers were leaders in studying PCB's 7 and they had also taken the additional step to study, 8 or look for contaminants or materials that might be pre 9 sent in PCB's and have afforded the presence of another 10 set of chemicals called chlorinated dibenzofurans in 11 some of their samples. 12 Ql Do you have an impression as to -- did you, in your 13 communications with the University fo Utrecht, gain any 14 impressions as to the natures of these contaminants and 15 in whose PCB's they were? 16 A. Yes. The contaminants that they reported were found in the 17 European produced PCB's other than Monsanto's United 18 Kingdom plant. They did not detect any in the Monsanto 19 produced materials. 20 Ql Did you learn whether or not they had done any more re 21 search since the reports that you talked about that .22 prompted your contact in the first place? 23 MR. WOODWORTH: Objection, again, as to hear 24 say, Your Honor. I just, you know, feel uncomfortable with 25 this until the Court instructs the Jury this is his 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4870B IS 17) 093-432 \ 5228 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48003 IS 1 7) 792 471 2 PAGE ---5126 WATER PCB-SD0000037360 _______ INC. rpi cirr COURT REPORTERS 1 impression, tins is not the fact as to what the people 2 in the Netherlands are doing. 3 MR. JUNGERHELD: The specific question was 4 whether or not he even learned anything about that. Not 5 what he learned, but whether or not he did. And I think, 6 Your Honor, we have instructed the Jury several times, 7 now, that we're talking about this man's impressions, 8 about what the situation was at that time. 9 MR. WOODWORTH: We'll, to start with every 10 time one of these questions is asked "did you have an im 11 pression, or learn" there hasn't been a time yet that he 12 said no. So I would have to assume that the answer is { 13 going to be yes, that he's going to say yes I had an im 14 pression or yes, I did learn something, the next time 15 when the question comes up as to what his impression, or 16 whatever, he's saying what they were doing and again is 17 hearsay. Now, we're just, you know, question after ques 18 tion after question as to what they did at the University 19 of Utrecht, what they did at the ministeries in Great 20 Britain, or the United Kingdom, or Dr. Jensen's staff 21 was doing, what they did at the meeting in Deluth. 22 Question after question is what these people were doing and 23 I think that's the -- the questioning is coming out what 24 these people were doing, not what his thoughts were. 25 THE COURT: I'll allow the testimony on the 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 46706 (SI7I 893-4321 5226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (3 171 792-4712 PAGE 517 7 WATER PCB-SD0000037361 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC. 1 basis it goes to the understanding of the situation of 2 the Defendant in this ease and the reasonableness of their 3 response -- actions in response to that information. So 4 I'll allow it. It's not necessarily the truth of whether 5 or not what this witness was understanding is true, but merely 6 what his understanding was. 7 Go ahead. 8 ' MR. JUNGERHELD: I have forgotten the question. 9 Perhaps you have too, Mr. Papageorge. 10 Qt (By Mr. Jungerheld, continuing:) I believe I asked you 11 whether or not you had any impression as to whether or not 12 the University of Utrecht through the individuals you 13 were in contact with had done any more research that 14 changed their findings in regards to contaminants in the 15 European PCB's versus the Aroclors. 16 A. Yes. That laboratory continued to do research looking for 17 contaminants in PCB's. 18 ft And did you gain an impression that any of the earlier 19 information was changed? 20 A No. 21 Ql Did you then return from Europe? 22 A Yes. 23 Q. And what, then, did you do? 24 A Upon returning I immediately saw to it that the program 25 as approved by the corporate management committee was 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4870B IS I 71 093-4321 5220 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48003 IS 171 792-47 1 2 PAGE 5 3 ? Sj WATER PCB-SD0000037362 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS ____________________________________________________________________________________________________________ __________INC._____________ I being quickly und properly implemented; that the right 2 notifications had been prepared and taken place were 3 appropriate; that our plants and our salespeople and our 4 managers, everyone was well aware as to what the intent 5 of the company was. 6 ft Could you tell us whether or not it was necessary, then, 7 to adjust production and inventories because of your 8 plan of attack here, so to speak? 9 MR. WOODWORTH; Objection. Leading. 10 MR. JUNGERHELD: Well ~ 11 THE COURT; I'll sustain the objection. I 12 think you're leading him. 13 MR. JUNGERHELD; I'll ask it in another way. 14 What did you do in terms of your plants that were making 15 PCB's, Mr. Papag eo rge ? 16 Well, the decision was made that following our phase-out 17 program we no longer had need to produce units. One of 18 the units had to be shut down. The decision was made to 19 keep the unit in Illinois running since it was the newer 20 unit, more modern unit, and the unit in Anniston, Alabama 21 eventually -- well, the program was put in place to re 22 sponsibly and carefully shut down the unit in Anniston, 23 Alabama and that was finally accomplished as best I remembti 24 in about 1971. 25 Was there any further information given to your customers 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 IS 171 693-4321 3226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 46603 1317) 792-47 I 2 PAGE 5329 WATER PCB-SD0000037363 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS _____________________ _________________________________________ _______________________________ ________________ __________INC. ___________ 1 about that time? If I follow you correctly we're now 2 talking about, when, in 1970? 3 A. This is about May of 1970. 4 Qt And was there further communication, then, to your custo 5 mers and distributors at that time? 6 A. Yes. There were letters mailed to both. 7 Qi All right. I'm going to hand you Defendant's Proposed 8 Exhibit 415A and 415B and as you if you can identify 9 that? 10 A This is a copy of a letter addressed to a representative 11 of the distributor of Monsanto's describing the phase-out 12 program. 13 Q. Would this letter be representative of those that were 14 sent to distributors at that time? 15 A Yes. 16 MR. JUNGERHELD: Your Honor, I have showed 17 these already to Counsel. I'd offer 415A and 415B, which 18 are expanded versions of an earlier exhibit, that being 19 131. 20 THE COURT: Any objection? 21 MR. WOODWORTH: Yes. That's Plaintiff's 131 22 that we admitted. 23 THE COURT: Any objection? 24 MR. WOODWORTH: No. 25 __________________________THE COURT: Mr. Davidson?___________'__________________ 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (317)893-4321 5220 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 1317)792-4712 PAGE 53 30 WATER PCB-SD0000037364 TRI-CITY COURT reporters INC. 1 MR. DAVIDSON: No, Your Honor. 2 THE COURT: Very well. Defendant's 415A and 3 B are admitted without objection. 4 ft Mr. Papageorge, referring to 415A and B would you describe 5 to the Jury, then, what this letter was? 6 A. This is a copy of a letter addressed to an individual re 7 presenting a distributor of Monsanto's PCB products for 8 plasticizer use. 9 ft All right. I notice that this one is addressed to Mr. 10 Giloth of Central Solvents & Chemical Company. Would this 11 letter be representative of those that went to distributor 12 A. Yes. 13 ft Would you read that letter out loud please? 14 A. "May 25, 1970. Mr. Carl F. Giloth, Central Solvents 15 & Chemicals Company. 2540 West Flornoi Street, Chicagcj) 16 Illinois, 60612. 17 Mr. Giloth, you have received previous' communica 18 tions from us regarding the allegations that certain 19 polychlorinated biphenyls, PCB, have been found in the 20 environment and were contaminants. Since that time 21 other reports concernina PCB's have been published. 22 An examination of the PCB matter now indicates that 23 their use in modifier and plasticizer applications may 24 be a source in the alleged envirionmental contaminatioiji 25 Monsanto has sold PCB containing materials under the 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4B70B IS I 71 893-4321 3228 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 46603 (517) 792-4712 page 533 1 WATER PCB-SD0000037365 tri-city COURT REPORTERS INC 1 "tradenames of Aroclor. These Aroclors included 2 Aroclor 1232, Aroclor 1242, Aroclor 1248, Aroclor 3 1254, Aroclor 1260, Aroclor 1263, Aroclor 1268, 4 Aroclor 4465, Aroclor 1100 series. Montar 1, 5 Toluene or Xylene blends of the above products also 6 contain PCB. 7 In the view of the allegations which have been 8 made concerning PCB's and being a concern and respon 9 sible member of the world community we have come to a 10 decision to discontinue the sale of the PCB containing 11 products for modifier and plasticizer applications 12 effective August 30, 1970. We will notify our direct 13 customers using the above products of this decision 14 by June 1, 1970. As a distributor of these products 15 it would seem appropriate that you will follow the 16 same course of action at as early a date as feasible. 17 A record should be kept of all customers notified 18 along with the dates on which the letters were 19 transmitted. 20 Recognizing that this action will result in con 21 siderable effort to define replacement products on 22 your part and on the part of your customers we have 23 prepared data sheets outlining suggested alternatives 24 for most applications. Copies of these sheets for 25 your use and for the use of your customers will be 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 IS 17) 893-4321 3228 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (317) 792-4712 page____5332 WATER PCB-SD0000037366 TRI-C1TY COURT REPORTERS INC. 1 'Iseut to you and to your regional offices prior to 2 June 1. Additional copies may be obtained from the 3 appropriate Monsanto regional office. The rest of 4 these sales offices is enclosed with this letter. 5 We regret the work that this action will create 6 for you. However, as a responsible supplier we feel 7 we have a duty to keep our customers informed on 8 matters concerning the safe handling and use of our 9 products. We appreciate your support in this 10 matter. As in the past we stand ready to assist you 11 in any way possible. Very truly yours. W.E. Schalk, 12 Director of Sales, Plasticizers." 13 Q. Mr. Papageorge, I'm goiog to hand you Defendant's Proposed 14 Exhibit 416A and 416B and I'll ask you if you can identify 15 that? 16 A This is a copy of a letter addressed to customers of 17 Monsanto of PCB's informing them of the discontinuance of 18 sales to plasticizer applications. 19 MR. JUNGERHELD: Your Honor, once again I 20 have shown these to the other attorneys. This is 416A 21 and 416B. This is an expanded version of an earlier exhibit:. .22 132 23 THE COURT: Any objection, Mr. Woodworth? 24 MR. WOODWORTH: No, Your Honor. We admitted 25 it as No. 132 during our case 300 PHOENIX. SLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48700 (SI7) 893-4321 5228 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48803 (317) 792-4712 WATER PCB-SD0000037367 tri-city COURT REPORTERS _____________________________________________________________________ ________________ ______________ ______________________ INC._________ 1 THE COURT: Mr. Davidson? 2 MR. DAVIDSON: None, Your Honor. 3 THE COURT: Defense 416A and B are admitted 4 without objection. 5 ft Mr. Papageorge, can you distinguish for us then, the 6 difference between the persons to whom the letter now on 7 the board was sent and that that we just read before? 8 A. This letter went to customers to whom Monsanto sold 9 directly to. The previous was sent to distributors of 10 Monsanto's product. 11 ft All right. Now, would you read this letter, then, to the 12 Jury please? 13 A "Dear Customer, you have received our letter dated 14 February 27, 1970 notifying you of the allegations that 15 certain polychlorinated biphenyls, PCB's, have been 16 found in the environment and were contaminants. Since 17 that time other reports concerning PCB's have been 18 published. An examination of the PCB matter has in 19 dicated that their use in synthetic resin compositions 20 may be a source of a alleged environmental contamina 21 tion. Monsanto has sold PCB's under the trade name 22 of Aroclor. These Aroclors include Aroclor 1232, 23 Aroclor 1242, Aroclor 1248, Aroclor 1254, Aroclor 1260, 24 Aroclor 1262, Aroclor 1268, Aroclor 4465, Ardor 1100 25 series and Montar 1, Toluene or Xylene blends of the 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48708 IS 1 71 893-432 I 5228 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 IS I 7) 792-47 I 2 PAGE 5334 WATER PCB-SD0000037368 tri city COURT REPORTERS ______________________________________________________________________________ _________________________________ INC._________________ 1 "above products also contain PCB's. 2 In review of the allegations which have been made 3 concerning PCB's and being a concerned and responsible 4 member of the world community we have come to the 5 decision to discontinue the sales of the PCB containing 6 products for modifier and plasticizer applications 7 effective August 30, 1970. 8 Recognizing that this action will result in re 9 search effort on your part to find adequeate replace 10 ments. we have prepared a series of data sheets out 11 lining suggested alternatives for most applications. 12 Copies of the report for your applications may be 13 obtained by calling the regional office closest:to you 14 as shown on the attached sheet. We urge that you con 15 sider initiating now any necessary work on your part 16 to effect the change to a new material. We stand 17 ready to assist you in any way possible. Very truly 18 yours, W.E. Schalk, Director of Sales, Plasticizers." 19 Q, Mr. Papageorge, at this same time frame we're talking 20 about here was there any further work done in terms of the 21 disposal, if you will, of PCB's, or further consideration 22 given to that? 23 A. Yes. The important and new approach was the design and 24 eventually building and operating an incinerator capable 25 of destroying PCB's. 300 PHOENIX. SLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 46706 (917)693-4321 . - 3226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (317)792-4712 PAGE 53 3 5 WATER PCB-SD0000037369 _________________ __________ ____________ ___ INC. TRi-CITY . COURT REPORTERS 1 Q. Was there any other work dene, or was ther^ any work done, 2 let's put it this way, was there any work done in the 3 field of developing alternatives? 4 A. Yes. The developing of alternatives is always an ongoing 5 research activity, but because of this withdrawal program 6 that activity was accelerated and we did find some 7 materials that we could recommend as alternatives. 8 Qi With reference to the meeting you talked about with 9 several -- with representatives of several agencies of the 10 federal government in 1970, this is before the EPA legis 11 lation had been passed -- 12 MR. WOODWORTH: Objection. That is not into 13 evidence as to whether or not -- that's gratuitous and 14 I don't think it's accurate. The EPA was passed in 1969, 15 so first of all that's a leading question. And secondly, 16 it's inaccurate. 17 MR. JUNGERHELD: Well, Your Honor, I believe 18 what I'm trying to do is direct Mr. Papageorge's atten 19 tion back to a meeting that he talked about earlier, which 20 I thought he described as being with representatives of 21 various agencies before the EPA was in place. I'm not 22 asking him about whether enabling legislation was passed. 23 I'm asking him about before this agency was in place and 24 functioning and I believe he alluded to that earlier and I 25 want to direct his attention back to that point. 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48704 (317)893-4321 52<:6 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48803 (317)792-4712 PAGE--------- 53 36 WATER PCB-SD0000037370 TRl-ClTY COURT REPORTERS _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________INC._________________ 1 MR. WOODWORTH: I still think it's a leading 2 question. The enabling legislation was passed in 1969. 3 Made it knowledgeable there was an EPA on the horizon in 4 1970. I think the witness can testify to what was going 5 on without Counsel leading. 6 THE COURT: He did, though, previously. I'll 7 allow the testimony as to how it stands. 8 Go ahead. I guess you didn't finish. That's the 9 question. 10 Qi (By Mr. Jungerheld, continuing:) Going back to that point 11 -- first of all do you remember that group, if you will? 12 A Yes, I do. 13 Ql And did you in fact meet with that group? 14 A Yes. 15 Qi Could y ou tell us what did you tell that group about what 16 you knew at that time? 17 A There were three general areas that I told them about. 18 One is how PCB's are manufactured. Where Monsanto manu 19 factured them. How we described them using the Aroclor 20 terminology. What uses PCB's were involved in. What our 21 analytical methodology research had resulted in. The 22 fact we had now three procedures developed and ready to 23 share. Our willingness to provide samples to any labora 24 tory that was interested in analyzing for PCB's. The '25 status of the animal testing which was underway in 1970. 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4870B (3171 893-4321 3226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 46603 IS I 71 792-47 1 2 PAGE ^ V* 7 WATER PCB-SD0000037371 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC._______________ 1 The fact that we were going to do some degradation work 2 that was underway. Just getting started. And the hope 3 that as soon as we had the data we could come back to 4 them and share it with them. And our thinking at the 5 time of withdrawing from the placticizer copy paper and 6 hydraulic fluid applications. 7 Q. Was there any discussion about the milk situation in 8 Ohio? 9 A Yes. I had mentioned that I had been in telephone con 10 tact with representatives of the Ohio Dairy Agency and 11 this was not news to them, of course. Particularly, FDA. 12 They had been informed before I was. 13 THE COURT: In light of the hour-we'll take 14 our recess at that time. 15 Members of the Jury, retire to the Jury Room. We'll 16 call for you in about 15 minutes. 17 (Whereupon a recess was taken.) 18 MR. WOODWORTH: Would the Court have on a 19 particular exhibit what an objection may have been? 20 THE COURT: Looks like there wasn't -- it 21 wasn't offered. It looks like it from my notes. .22 MR. WOODWORTH: Plaintiff's 141? 23 THE COURT: Right. Looks from my notes that 24 it was offered, but I could be wrong. 25 MR. WOODWORTH: Well, we have it in -- this 300 PHOENIX. SLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4870B IS 17) 883-4321 3228 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48803 IS I 7) 792-47 1 2 PAGE 5 3 1 8 WATER PCB-SD0000037372 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC_________________ 1 was -- this was the letter if I -- maybe if I showed the 2 Court the exhibit itself. Excuse me. 3 THE COURT: I recall the exhibit. 4 Do you recall whose testimony it was offered in con 5 junction with? 6 MR. WOODWORTH: All these, the three exhibit 7 letters and everything, were Mr. O'Connor's and I offered 8 the whole file, I recall. All of them. Then we went 9 through them. 10 THE COURT: Okay. Was 141 in there? 11 MR. WOODWORTH: It's crossed out and it is 12 not in the file and I remember I offered the entire group. 13 THE COURT: All right. Is there another 14 exhibit that 141 might be a duplicate of? 15 MR. WOODWORTH: That's all Mr. Me Graw can 16 think of. 17 THE COURT: I noticed it says duplicates. 18 MR. MC GRAW: The only reason we would have 19 taken things out is if it was duplicated at that time. 20 MR. WOODWORTH: I don't have an objection to 21 the other one that Mr. Jungerheld has here. It's already 22 been admitted as our, what, Plaintiff's 137 so I don't 23 have any problem with that. 24 141, if I can find what it's a duplicate of -- 25 THE COURT: What are we referring to, Mr. 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (S I 71 893-4321 3226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 IS 17) 792-47 I 2 PAGE 3 39 WATER PCB-SD0000037373 tri-gity COURT REPORTERS _____________________________________________ .________ ________________________________INC.______ 1 MR. JUNGERHELD: First off, Your Honor, 2 Exhibit 418. 3 THE COURT: Mr. Woodworth indicated no objec 4 tion. 5 Mr. Davidson? 6 MR. DAVIDSON: No, Your Honor. I think it's 7 already in. 8 THE COURT: All right. 418 is admitted with 9 out objection. 10 Why don't .you hold on? 11 MR. WOODWORTH: If he's going to read it -- 12 THE COURT: Go ahead if you have are going to 13 him read it. 14 MR. JUNGERHELD: Yes. 15 ft (By Mr. Jungerheld, continuing:) Mr. Papageorge, now, 16 talking about Exhibit 418, would you kindly tell the Jury 17 what that was? 18 A. That is a copy of a letter which was mailed to distributor s 19 of Monsanto's Aroclor products in which we attempted to 20 share with them the latest PCB information available to 21 Monsanto in August, 1970. 22 ft Would you read that letter since back this far it's 23 difficult to read? 24 A. All right. It's dated August 14, 1970. 25 "Dear, Sir. During the week of August 10, 1970 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4B70B (917)893-4321 9220 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (917)792-4712 PAGE 5 34 0_____ WATER PCB-SD0000037374 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS ____________________________________________________________________________________________ INC.___________________ 1 "Monsanto is sending to all its direct customers for 2 Aroclors in plasticizer, modifier applications, one, 3 a letter summarizing the latest information on PCB's, 4 and two, a most recent Aroclor technical bulletin. 5 This bulletin replaces and supercedes O/FL-306-Aroclor 6 plasticizers. Inasmuch as some important information 7 concerning recent FDA actions and changes to Monsanto'3 8 returned goods policies are discussed we strongly 9 urge you to forward copies of this bulletin and a 10 letter to your Aroclor customers. Copies of both 11 have been enclosed for your use. 12 The change in return goods policy for our direct 13 customers involve a two-month extension of the dead 14 lines for returning materials to Monsanto. The same 15 two-month extension will apply to our distributors. 16 A copy of our revised goods policy is attached. We 17 realize that this additional communication provides an 18 added workload for your people. However, in view of 19 the importance of the importance of this matter we fee] 20 that it is necessary for you as our distributor to 21 assist in this matter. 22 . Very respectfully, Walter E. Schalk, Director of 23 Sales, Plasticizers." 24 MR. JUNGERHELD: Now, Your Honor, I want to 25 deal with 419A and B. __________________ ____________________________________ 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY, MICHIGAN 4S70B (S 17} 893-4321 3226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (317)792-4712 PAGE 5341--------- WATER PCB-SD0000037375 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS INC. 1 THE COURT: Mr. Woodworth? 2 MR. WOODWORTH: It's already been admitted 3 as Plaintiff's 98. I found it. 4 THE COURT: So you have no objection? 5 MR. WOODWORTH: No objection. 6 THE COURT: Mr. Davidson? 7 MR. DAVIDSON: No, Your Honor. 8 THE COURT: Defendant's 419A and B are admitted 9 10 Q. 11 12 13 14 15 A 16 17 4 18 A 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 without objection. Mr. Papageorge, now, let's deal with Exhibit 419A and 419B. You have just read a letter dated August 14, 1970, and I believe you indicated that went to your distributors . Who did the letter that is now on the board, 419A and B, go to? This letter went to customers that Monsanto sold Aroclors directly to. And would you read that letter, then, to the Jury, please? "Dear, Sir. You have received our letters of February 27th, 1970 and June 1, 1970 covering Monsanto s withdrawal of polychlorinated biphenyls, PCB's, from the market. The February 27 letter reviewed some of the potential hazards of PCB's and of environmental pollution in general. The June 1 letter announced that we are withdrawing all polychlorinated biphenyls used as plasticizers, or modifiers, from the market 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (317) 893-4321 3226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 1317) 792-47 12 PAGE-------5342 WATER PCB-SD0000037376 tri-city COURT REPORTERS INC. 1 "and that the last shipment of these materials would 2 be made August 30, 1970. 3 Inasmuch as you may have some inventory of these 4 materials which youmightbe planning to use during the 5 period in which you change over to other products we 6 felt it imperative to inform you of the latest informa 7 tion concerning PCB's. It was recently brought to our 8 attention that the Food and Drug Administration has 9 apparently established guidelines setting forth a 10 suggested maximum levels of PCB's allowable in certain 11 foods. These levels, as we understood them, are five 12 parts per million in fish and 0.2 parts per million 13 in milk. 14 Monsanto, therefore, strongly recommends that PCB's 15 not be used in applicationswhich could lead either 16 directly or indirectly to the contamination of food 17 and water supplies for humans or animals. 18 Examples of applications which would seem partic 19 ularly hazardous would be coatings for water treatment 20 facilities, coatings for food handling equipment, or 21 coatings for such farm items as silos and feed hoppers. 22 It has recently come to our attention that PCB's 23 have been found in cows' milk. This adds emphasis 24 to Monsanto's recommendation that PCB's not be used in 25 any application where they might come in contact with 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4B70S IS 171 003-4321 3220 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 40003 (517) 792-4712 PAGE 5 34 3 WATER PCB-SD0000037377 TRt-CITY COURT REPORTERS INC. 1 "Or otherwise contaminate food silage, water supplies, 2 et cetera. The latest available bulletin on our line 3 of Aroclors is enclosed for your use. This publica 4 tion replaces and supercedes Bulletin 0/PL-3065 Aroclor plasticizers. 6 The only products listed which will be sold after 7 August 31, 1970 are one, Aroclor 1221, a monochlori8 nated biphenyl, which is readily biodegradable, and 9 two Aroclors, 5442 and 5460, both chlorinated turphenolLs 10 which have not shown themselves to be environmental 11 contaminants. 12 Please pay special attention to the section of this 13 bulletin which relates to environmental hazards. 14 In addition to the products listed above which will 15 remain on the market, Monsanto will sell a series of 16 blends of Aroclor 1221 and Aroclor 5460, which will re 17 place the polychlorinated byphenols for applications. 18 During this withdrawal of PCB's from the market Monsanto 19 has- had in effect a modified returned goods policy stating 20 that unopened containers less than one year old could be 21 returned for full credit through July 31,1970. From 22 August 1 through August 31, 1970, 90 percent of credit would 23 be allowed. From September 1 through December31, 1970, 24 50 percent credit would be allowed. The customer will 25 pay all return freight. All of the dates in the time 300 PHOENIX. SLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48708 (3171 803-4321 3228 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48803 (St 71 792-4712 PAGE . -53A4 WATER PCB-SD0000037378 _________________________________________________________________________________________________ tri-city COURT REPORTERS INC. 1 "schedule lor this returned goods policy are hereby 2 extended an additional two months. 3 Monsanto realizes that the removal of these pro 4 ducts from the market has caused a great deal of 5 concern and expense for our customers. This is 6 certainly regrettable. However, it appears to us 7 that as a responsible supplier this is the only 8 reasonable course of action. We stand ready to assist 9 you as we can with your reformulation work. Very 10 respectfully, Walter E. Schalk, Director of Sales, 11 Plasticizers." 12 Qi Mr. Papageorge, did a copy of this letter you just read 13 go to the distributors along with the letter we just 14 read a moment ago? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q, And it indicated therein, you specifically read and speci 17 fically said in the letter about the PCB in milk. Had 18 you, by this time, analyzed the samples that were sent 19 to you by Dr. Hill in Ohio? 20 A Yes. 21 0. And what kind of samples had he sent? 22 A As 1 remember he had sent some samples of silo scrapings 23 and some samples of extraction from the milk and later 24 some samples of milk itself. 25 Qi Did Monsanto's laboratory analyze those samples? 300 PHOeNIX. SLOG. SAV CITY. MICHIGAN 49706 <3171 393-4321 3228 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 13)7)792-4712 PAGE 5 34 5 WATER PCB-SD0000037379 TRl CITY COURT REPORTERS ______________________________________ __________________________________________________________________________________ INC. 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Now, earlier in this case there was introduced as an 3 exhibit, and I believe it was read to the Jury, these 4 letters that we just read to the Jury were net, but I 5 believe the memo from Mr. Tucker to you dated April 16, 6 1970 was read to the Jury. Do you recall a memo from Mr. 7 Tucker to yourself dated April 16th of 1970? 8 A. Yes, I do. 9 ft And what did that tell you? - 10 MR. WOODWORTH: Objection, Your Honor. The 11 exhibit speaks for itself. I think -- you know, it's in 12 evidence and it is available and it speaks for itself. 13 He's a recipient of it. 14 THE COURT: Want to refer to the exhibit it 15 self? 16 MR. JUNGERHELD: Pardon me. Your Honor. 17 THE COURT: You wish to refer to the exhibit 18 yourself? 19 MR. JUNGERHELD: Not really. He's read it 20 recently in preparation for the course of the trial. 21 THE COURT: Go ahead. I'll allow it. 22 A. As I remember Dr. Tucker was informing me that he had com 23 pleted the analysis sent to him from Dr. Hill's laboratory 24 and that the material identified as a PCB matched Dr. 25 Tucker's standard for Aroclor 1254. So he was convinced 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4870S 13171693-4321 3226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 46603 . (5171792 47 12 PAGE 5 34 6 WATER PCB-SD0000037380 im t r COURT REPORTERS _____________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________INC 1 that what he was seeing was a PCS that resembled Arocior 2 1254. 3 I think ho also informed me in that letter that the 4 extraction -- one of the samples, I think it was a milk 5 sample, was destroyed in transit and he had asked for a 6 second sample. 7 Ql Asked of Dr. Hill for a second sample? 8 A Of the laboratory that did the work for Dr. Hill. 9 Q. And did this rule out Kanechlor or Clophen, to you when 10 you read that letter? 11 MR. WOODWORTH: Objection. Leading. That's 12 why the exhibit speaks for itself, I think, Your Honor. 13 THE COURT: That isn't the exhibit now. That's; 14 another question. I'll sustain the objection. It is lead-' 15 ing. 16 Ql What if anything did this exhibit tell you? Did this 17 letter or memo from Dr. Tucker -- is it Mr. Tucker, or 18 Dr. Tucker? 19 A Dr. Tucker. 20 Qi What if anything did that tell you concerning Kanechlor, 21 or Clophen, or any other PCB? 22 MR. WOODWORTH: Objection, Your Honor. There's; 23 no reference within that letter to Kanechlor, or Clophen. 24 He's using an exhibit for a question and leading the 25 witness into it, or from it. I think it's rephrasing 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 1517)893-4321 . 5226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 13171 792-471 2 PAGE 5 74 7 WATER PCB-SD0000037381 1 another question. TRI CITY COURT REPORTERS INC. 2 THE COURT: I'll allow this one. Go ahead. 3 Can you answer it? 4 A. Yes. Dr. Tucker's letter only reported analytical results. 5 It did not determine the type of commercial material that 6 could lead to the presence of this finding. 7 Ql Do you recall concentrations reported in the memorandum 8 from Dr. Tucker to yourself? 9 A. I think I recall them. Hot in exact numbers but in magni 10 11 Qi 12 tudes. All right. And did this indicate to you any threat to human or animal health, the concentrations that were dealt with 13 14 A 15 Qi 16 17 18 in that memornadum? Not to me, no. Now, we have covered a fair amount of the year of 1970, Mr. Papageorge, and during this period of time what was Monsanto doing, if anything, as it related to providing standards of its Aroclors to universities and government 19 agencies and whoever else? 20 A We had a program of supplying standards to anyone who asked 21 for them. And I never kept any score sheet but there must 22 have been hundreds, approaching thousands, that we very 23 freely distributed. 24 ft- And to what kind of agencies would you distribute these 25 standards? 300 PHOENIX. SLOG SAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48700 131 71 883-432* S2J6 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48803 (5 I 71 792-47 12 page 5 3 A 9 WATER PCB-SD0000037382 TRI OTY COURT REPORTERS ___________________________ ____ _______________________ INC.___________________ 1 A. Oh, it would cover the whole -- all types. It would be 2 the regulatory agencies at the federal level, it included 3 the Department of Agriculture, FDA, and water pollution 4 agencies that existed at the time. The state agencies 5 of all types. Food and environmentally related. Universi 6 ties, both for study purposes and for consulting work that 7 some universities do. Industry. A lot of -- many in 8 dustrial laboratories were interested in determining 9 whether their products, their supplies, their raw materials, 10 their environment around their plant had PCB's in them. 11 Qi Did there come a time later in 1970 when you had further 12 contact with Dr. Hill from the Ohio Department of 13 Agriculture? 14 A I had telephone contacts with Dr. Hill and finally later 15 in the year, I think it was November -- yes, November, I 16 met with Dr. Hill in his office. 17 Q. Was anybody else present? 18 A Well, Dr. Hill's supervisor, a Mr. Stackhouse, I believe 19 was his name was present also. 20 Q. And what was the reason you met with Dr. Hill and Mr. 21 Stackhouse then in Dr. Hill's office? 22 A The principal reason was to compare notes -- well, first 23 I wanted to meet the man. I had talked to him many, many 24 times on the phone and I also felt it better if r could 25 meet a person personally face-to-face to talk with him, 300 PHOENIX. BLOG BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (317)893-4321 5226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48803 1517)792 4712 PAGE____ S-14.9_ WATER PCB-SD0000037383 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS INC 1 compare what new information he may have picked up, what 2 new information I may have picked up. I took along some 3 new articles that I had copied from the literature to 4 share with him. And also to determine what he had done 5 regarding communicating the PCB silo milk situation in 6 his state. 7 Q. Was there any discussion about the National Silo Associa 8 tion? 9 A Yes. 10 Ql And what was the National Silo Association? 11 A As I understand it the National Silo Association is an 12 association consisting of companies and individuals 13 associated with silo construction, silo maintenance, silo 14 use, people who have an interest in silos throughout this 15 country. 16 Ql And did you know whether or not there were any meetings 17 scheduled for that association still in 1970? 18 A Yes. Yes. 19 Qi 20 A 21 22 23 Do you know there was? There was a meeting scheduled for December, 1970, and r -- one of the reasons for the trip was to ask Dr. Hill whether he planned to attend the meeing or participate in the meeting. 24 Qi Did you plan to attend that meeting then after your dis 25 cussion with Dr. Hill in his office? 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 IS I 71 893-4321 S226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48803 15 I 7) 792-4712 page 5 3 5 0 WATER PCB-SD0000037384 T-<l CITY couflt REPORTERS INC. i A. Not after i hue uiy conversation. i decided that I could 2 add nothing in addition to what Dr. Hill was going to re 3 port so my presence would not have added to the information 4 that was passed on. 5 ft All right. Did you have any impression, then, from the 6 meeting with Dr. Hill as to whether or not he was going 7 to make a presentation about this situation to the Silo 8 Assocation? 9 A Yes, I did. 10 Qi Did you contact Dr. Hill after the meeting of the National 11 Silo Association in December of 1970? 12 A Yes, I did. 13 ft What was the purpose of your conversation, then, with Dr. 14 Hill? 15 I wanted to determine how well the meeting went. What typ 16 of information was discussed. What type of information 17 was discussed. What type of information was he in the pos^ 18 tion to offer. And did he pick up any new information 19 regarding PCB's in silos. 21) Did you gain any impression from Dr. Hill about whether or 21 not he had presented this Ohio silo information to the 22 National Silo Association? 23 A Yes, he did present it. 24 ft Did you in this conversation learn anything new, then, 25 from Dr. Hill? 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (3 I 7) 893-432 I 5-'6 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 15 I 7) 792-47 I 2 PAGE 5351 WATER PCB-SD0000037385 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS INC. 1 A Nothing new. 2 yi By the way, was your contact with Dr. Hill after the 3 National Silo Association meeting in person or was that 4 over the telephone? 5 A Over the telephone. 6 Qi Mr. Papageorge, earlier there had been a couple of memos 7 introduced into evidence relating to your visits to two 8 Ohio farmers. Did that take place at the same time as youir 9 visit with, or at the same time as your visit to Ohio 10 wherein you met Dr. Hill? 11 A Yes. They were side trips that I took. 12 yt Do these memos accurately reflect your impressions gained 13 on those visits? 14 A Yes. 15 (Jl The word confidential appears on those memorandums and 16 what does confidential mean in the context of it appearing 17 on those memorandums concerning your meeting with those 18 two Ohio farmers? 19 A 20 21 22 I'm the one that used that word and right or wrong I felt I was new regarding the involvement of attorneys and matters in terms of a technical nature and in meeting with one of the farmers in the living room of the home one of the 23 individuals present was an attorney and I decided perhaps 24 there was something here I wasn't capable of assessing 25 properly so I chose to use the word confidential and sent 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY city. MICHIGAN 4870B IS I 71 893-4331 5226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48803 IS 171 792-4712 PAGE.. 4^52-- WATER PCB-SD0000037386 TNI CITY COURT REPORTERS _______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC.____________ I copies of this memorandum only to the top managers of 2 the businesses involved. The medical director and 3 environmental attorney. Very limited distribution. 4 (ji Do you remember anything further? Anything significant 5 occurring in 1970 as it relates to the PCB situation, 6 other than what we have now discussed before the Jury? 7 A. Well, I don't know that I can recall anything that's 8 outstanding. The principal activity really was one of 9 communicating, responding to the letters and telephone 10 calls from hundreds of people throughout the world asking 11 us what our PCB's -- what will they do, how do I analyze 12 for them. This constant request for information occurred. 13 In addition to that there was our continuing effort 14 to keep talking to individuals studying PCB's, analyzing 15 for them, and the like. 16 Q. All right, sir. Did you respond to these requests for 17 information. 18 A. Yes. Yes. 19 Q. Did you supply the requested information? 20 A Yes. 21 Qt Talking now about 1970, 1971 . Did you have any occasion 22 in 1971 to meet anybody connected with a silo company? 23 A Yes. I remember meeting in 1971 fairly early with an 24 individual who was and is, to my understanding, a presi 25 dent of a silo company, and also an official in the 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48708 IS 171 893-4321 5328 STATE ST SAGINAW MICHIGAN 48803 (5 171792 4712 PAGE 5 3 5 3 WATER PCB-SD0000037387 1 National SiLu Association. 2 Q. And what is his name? thi city COURT REPORTERS _______ __ ____________________ INC. 3 A Charles Boswell. 4 Q. What silo company was he connected with? 5 A He was connected with the Monteagle Silo Company in 6 Monteagle, Tennessee. 7 Qi And what was the reason that you met with him? 8 A Boswell asked for a meeting seeking help from Monsanto 9 on how to respond to some letters he had received from 10 his customers as a result of his communicating to his 11 customers as recommended by the Silo Association through 12 its newsletters. And through the meeting that was held 13 in December -- 14 Q. Did you have any impressions then from this meeting as 15 to whether or not information about the PCB milk situation 16 had been dissiminated into what we might call the silo 17 community? 18 A Very definite impression that the communications through 19 the Silo Association was working very well. 20 Q. And did you gain any impression as to where Mr. Boswell's 21 silos were located? 22 A Yes, I did. 23 Ul And did you take any steps in connection with that? 24 A For the silos that Mr. Boswell constructed in northern 25 Georgia I paid a visit to the agency representative in 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 1517)893-4321 5226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48003 1517)792-47 12 PAGE 5 3 5 4 WATER PCB-SD0000037388 TNl CITY COURT REPORTERS _______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC. 1 Atlanta, Georgia to determine the extent of the PCB > silo milk situation in Georgia, and I left that meeting 3 assured that it was not serious. It found some PCB's. 4 Nothing to be concerned about. That things were under 5 control. 6 ft Did you- have any impression or develop any impression after 7 meeting with the Department of Agriculture individual there 8 in Georgia as to whether or not that state was communi 9 cating with its dairy farmers about that situation? 10 A. Yes. Definitely. 11 MR. WOODWORTH: Objection. Hearsay, again, 12 Your Honor. Same objection as before. He's testifying 13 on behalf of the National Silo Association, Mr. Boswell, 14 and now apparently on the State of Georgia. 15 THE COURT: I'll allow it on the basis of his 16 -- that being his impression. Not necessarily the truth 17 of the matter. 18 ft Did you have any other impressions about the silo situation 19 as it related -- as you drew it from your communication 20 with this individual? 21 A. I guess the principal impression I had was that there 22 was no health problem. There was a presence problem. 23 The amounts discovered wore very, very low. Not enough 24 to create any concern on the part of the regulatory 25 agencies. And no milk, to my knowledge, was ever embargoed 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4B706 (517)893-4321 5226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 15 17)792-4712 PAGE ____ 5 3 5 5 WATER PCB-SD0000037389 TRI-CiTY COURT REPORTERS _____________________________________________________________ 1 in Georgia as u icsult of PCB1s. 2 y And did you provide any information to that official? 3 A. I supplied him the identical information I had given to 4 other governmental representatives in terms of what we 5 knew about PCB's. What data we had. What literature we 6 collected, analytical methodology, standards, the whole 7 bit. 8 Ql There has been some testimony in this case about what's 9 been referred to as the Holly Farms situation. Did that 10 occur in 1971 as far as you can recall, Mr. Papageorge. 11 A. Yes. 12 Qi Would you outline for us what your involvement in that 13 was? 14 A In July, 1971 a marketing representative from Monsanto's 15 agricultural products unit informed me that a customer of 16 his was having problems with chickens. Reproduction -- 17 reproducing. The eggs were not hatching. His customer 18 -- I was left with the impression his customer suspected 19 PCB's coming from a heat transfer application in North 20 Carolina. I was asked the question did you sel1 Aroclors 21 or heat transfer fluid to this company. Of course, I 22 didn't know firsthand. I offered to check personally. 23 y What company was it? 24 A The company mentioned was East Coast Terminals Company 25 in Willmington, North Carolina. 300 PMOeNIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 IS I 71 893-432 I 3226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 46603 1317)792-47 12 PAGE 5 3 5 6____ WATER PCB-SD0000037390 TRI-CITY COURT R6 PORTERS __________________________________________________________________________________________ _____________________________ INC___________________ 1 I wont. Lack uiid chocked the records end yes, we did 2 sell PCB's to this company. 3 y. What did you do, then, in connection with that? 4 A. I went to the marketing people involved with that product 5 and asked them to check to see what kind of company East 6 Coast Terminals was. What was the operation. Because 7 in St. Louis none of us knew what business this terminal 8 was in. It was my understanding that the terminal had 9 as part of its business in one building of their operation 10 a unit that pasteurized fish meal to reduce the bacteria 11 count,.and they did this reduction by heating the fish 12 meal to fairly high temperatures and they used a PCB fluid 13 as the heating material. 14 ` And in their operation they developed a break in 15 their system that allowed the PCB's to intermingle with the 16 fish meal. The fish meal in turn was sold with the PCB! 17 fluid in it to companies that manufactured or formulated 18 poultry feed. So the chickens ended up inqesting high 19 levels of PCB which in turn affected the hatchability of 20 the eggs. 21 Qt Did you take any steps in this regard with East Coast 22 Terminals? 23 A As soon as I found out they were in the food, feed handling 24 business and that there was a contamination problem I 25 _______called the individual in charge of the operations and_______ 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4870B (5171893-4331 5J28 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (S 17) 792-47 1 2 PAGE > 3 57 WATER PCB-SD0000037391 TSI CITY COURT REPORTERS ____________________________________________________________________ ____________________________ 1 infoimed him that he should not bo intermingling the 2 contaminated material and soiling it to his customers and 3 ho chose to ignore my recommendations and I remember 4 vividly the expression he used, "Well, fellow, you do 5 your thing and I'll do mine". That was the reaction I 6 got from that telephone conversation. 7 Q, Did you then take any steps as a result of that event? 8 A. Yes. I reported this to the medical director and in my 9 presence he assigned his assistant Mr. Wheeler who called 10 the FDA and informed them about our understanding of what 11 was happening in North Carolina. 12 And did this discovery of the East Coast Terminals 13 situation prompt any activity, then, by Monsanto other than 14 informing the FDA? 15 A Well, it immediately taught us that although we had 16 assumed that heat transfer systems were closed systems, 17 that could be maintained and control could be -- adequate 18 control could be reached, this situation was a vivid 19 example where we may have assumed something that was not 20 quite right. 21 So as a result of this one experience Monsanto decided 22 and we implemented as quickly as we could a program where 23 we decided not to sell the heat transfer systems any longe:'. 24 So there was another phase-out effort that took place. 25 yt Mr. Pupaguorge, still talking about 1971, did you have any 300 PHOENIX. BUOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4870B 15171893-4321 S226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 15 17)792-47 12 I'AGE 5 3 5 8 WATER PCB-SD0000037392 _________________________________________ ___ TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS 1 oft ices witli any v-l<_oLr ical-typo committees? 2 A. Yes. Yes. I was chairman of a committee under the 3 auspices of the National Electrical Manufacturers 4 Association. NEMA. 5 Qi And what was your involvement with that? What was the 6 committee and what did you have to do with it? 7 A. The committee consisted of manufacturers of electrical 8 equipment, the users, such as the power company, utilities, 9 the service companies that maintain and look at trans 10 formers that are in service and drain the fluid and replace 11 it and so on, the service units. It was a mixed group 12 of individuals interested in the use of PCB's in electri 13 cal equipment. 14 The purpose of the committee was to develop guidelines 15 for the proper handling, use, disposal, transportation of 16 PCB's in electrical service. 17 Ql And did you attend any meetings of any groups or 18 organizations in 1971 at which PCB's were discussed? 19 A I attended many meetings. I have to confess I don't 20 recall them all. They were different groups interested 21 in PCB's. There was, as I remember it, a group which called it .22 self the Great Lakes Governor's Council on pesticides. 23 PCB's or pesticides. But in their study they kept 24 hearing PCB's so they were interested in PCB's and I was 25 invited to speak before them. 300 PHOENIX. BLOG BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 IS I 7) 803*4321 5236 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 13171792-4712 page 5 5 Q WATER PCB-SD0000037393 TRI CITY COURT REPORTERS ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC.______________ 1 y. What did you toil, them? 2 A. I repeated my typical presentation of, again, what are 3 PCB's, why are they manufactured, what does Aroclor 4 number so-and-so mean, where are they used, what kind 5 are found in the environment. The general draw a picture 6 of PCB situation. And there were -- 7 Q, I'm sorry. I was going to ask if you attended a meeting 8 in North Carolina at the end of -- 9 A Yes. That was another meeting. There were many meetings 10 in between and I don't remember the exact date. But I 11 do remember one that was -- I thought it was the 12 Associated Garden Clubs of Michigan, right here in this 13 state. As I remember that was held in Lansing. And that 14 group was a mixed group of individuals. Some industry. 15 Primarily people interested in conservation. The Isaac 16 Walton League was represented, The Audobon Society was 17 there. They were interested in PCB's and environmental 18 issues. There again the same kind of questions I was 19 asked to help them under. What are the strange chemicals. 20 And yes, in.the last month, December of '71, there was a 21 meeting called by the director of the National Institute 22 of Environmental Health Sciences by invitation. They 23 invited individuals interested in PCB's to attend a multi 24 day session. We met for almost a week. It was a very 25 indepth review ot what individuals worldwide understood 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4B70B IS I 71 893-4321 522b STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48003 (SI 71 792-4712 PAGE _____5 7 ft 0 WATER PCB-SD0000037394 1 about PCB's in the environment. TRl-ClTY COURT REPORTERS INC 2 Q. Wore you invited to attend that meeting? 3 A. 4 Qt Yes. What were the types of people that were represented or 5 type of agencies, or whatever, that were represented at 6 that meeting? 7 A. Well, of course, 1 remember the newly formed EPA representaj 8 tives were there. I mentioned the National Institute of 9 Environmental Health Sciences was there. The Food and 10 Drug Administration people were represented. The Depart 11 ment of Agriculture, the Department of Interior. Because 12 they're interested in fish and wildlife. We had the 13 individuals from the University of Utrecht were invited 14 and they attended. We had Japanese representatives to 15 speak on the incident that occurred in the Yusho pre- 16 fector(sic) in 1968. We had a few industrial people, the 17 Electrical Manufacturers were represented, and Monsanto 18 was represented. 19 ft And what did you do in connection with this meeting? 20 A. I made a presentation, again, of Monsanto's PCB's, re 21 peating what I described just before. How it's made, 22 where it's made, where it is used. 23 Q. Did you have any of your, shall we call them, retained or 24 25 A. hired testing people available at this meeting? Yes. The laboratory that was conducting the animal stud'' 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 46706 IS 17) 393-4321 5226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 46603 15 1 71 792-47 12 PAGE 5-3.6_LWATER PCB-SD0000037395 THi CITY COURT REPORTERS ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC. 1 for Monsanto was represented by their president. ) Qi Now, what lab was this? 3 A. 4 5 ft 6 7 8 A. 9 10 11 ft 12 13 A 14 15 ft 16 17 18 A 19 . 20 21 22 23 24 25 Industrial Biotest Laboratories located in Northbrook, Illinois. And what was that individual to -- what information was that individual to communicate to this group in North Carolina in December, 1971? He communicated the findings as of that moment, December, 1970, of the long-term feeding studies that were ongoing with rats, dogs and chickens, By the way, what was the reputation of the Industrial Biotest, to your understanding, at that time? It was an excellent laboratory. If not, I would suggest, it may have been considered the best in the world, And what was the information, then, that was known as of that time concerning the tests that IBT was conducting for your company? As I remember in 1970 the rats exposed to the high level / in their daily diet of a hundred parts per million PCB's of higher chlorinated materials, the Aroclor 1254, 1260, had two obvious effects. One is they did not grow as big, as fast, as the controls. They eventually got to the proper weight but it took them longer. The other effect noted was their livers were enlarged. For chickens it wasn't the higher chlorinated that 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48700 IS 17) 893*4321 5220 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48003 13171792-47 12 PAGE 5 3 6 2 WATER PCB-SD0000037396 _____________________________________________________ ______________________________________ tri city COURT REPORTERS INC. I seemed to effect them. it didn't seem to bother them. 2 The Aroclor 1242 at 10 parts per million, which was the 3 middle exposure, one, ten and a hundred, at ten there was 4 a problem with hatchability of eggs and thin egg shells. 5 The dogs showed nothing at that point. 6 So that was the status in 1970. 7 ft With reference to the chickens, you said one, ten and a 8 hundred. What does that figure represent? 9 A. I didn't make myself clear. All of these animals -- these 10 types of animals were exposed to one part per million in 11 their diet, or ten parts per million in their diet, or a 12 hundred parts per million in their diet. Daily diet. The 13 lifetime of the animal. 14 ft Excuse me. Is that a different concept than tissue con 15 centrations in the animal itself? 16 A Oh, yes. This is the amount of PCB's in the food that 17 the animal eats every day. All of it's food. So when I 18 say that ten parts per million that meant at one part 19 per million there was no effect on the eggs but at ten 20 parts per million an effect was noticed. 21 And of course, at a hundred parts per million it was 22 noticed. 23 ft And anything else concerning the IBT work up to that 24 point? We're still talking about North Carolina, 25 December, 1971. 300 PHOENIX. SLOG. SAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4S70S (317)893-4321 5228 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48803 (S 17) 792-47 1 2 PAGE 5363 WATER PCB-SD0000037397 TRI-ClTY COURT REPORTERS ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC.__________________ 1 A. The highlight of that meeting was realiv our lack of under 2 standing, my lack of understanding, from what I per 3 ceived at the meeting of what really happened in Japan. 4 It had been throughout the year a frustrating experience 5 for several reasons. One, is the language problem. We 6 just could not get enough information to make a proper 7 assessment. 8 Qi Going back to the 1BT studies, Mr. Papageorge, up to the 9 end of 1971, were there any effects on mutagenicity or 10 teratogenicity? 11 A. No. Except -- no. 12 Were the IBT slides available to the people at this meet 13 ing. 14 A. Yes. There was a discussion that started informally be 15 tween some investigators with the federal government and 16 the Industrial Biotest representatives regarding observa 17 tions of specimens taken from some animals that were 18 sacrificed. So they could get some tissues from them and 19 the offer was made and fulfilled where we flew in from the 20 laboratory some slides of liver tissue and brought in a 21 microscope and they set it up in the room that I had and 22 these scientists took turns looking through the micro 23 scope to determine what effect if any was observable in 24 these tissues. 25 yi Did you gain any impression from that whether or not there 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 <9171693-4321 5226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 IS I 71 792-47 I 2 PAGE 5364 WATER PCB-SD0000037398 TRI CITY COURT REPORTERS ________________________ __________________ INC 1 wore any utfoots visible? 2 A. Thu impression 1 had was all of the scientists involved 3 agreed that there was no evidence of cell damage in those 4 tissue samples. 5 Qt Mr. Papageorge -- 6 MR. WOODWORTH: I'll object to the hearsay i j I 7 nature of that unless we have all of the scientists 8 identified. Your Honor. It's another one of these series 9 of Questions that I have been objecting to. 10 THE COURT: I think that goes beyond the scope 11 of his impressions, Mr. Jungerheld. I'll sustain the 12 objection. Unless he can testify as to who each of these 13 people were that he developed his impression concerning 14 their impression of what they saw when they looked through 15 the microscope. 16 MR. JUNGERHELD: All right. 17 Q. Who was it that looked through the microscope if you can 18 recall that, Mr. Papageorge? 19 A I can recall some of them. There was Dr. Renada 20 Kimbrough from the -- I don't recall exactly, she was 21 either with the Food and Drug Administration in Atlanta, 22 or had transferred to the Center for Disease Control. She 23 changed positions at a point in time. I don't know just 24 when. She had been interested in rat studies with PCB's. 25 There was Dr. Keplingcr who represented the Industrial 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (317)893-4321 5326 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (517)792-4712 PAGE 5365___ WATER_PCB-SD0000037399 TRl CITY COURT _______________________________________________________________________ ____ _______ ________________ REPORTERS INC 1 Biotost Laboratories. 2 And as I remember a Dr. Good from Industrial Biotest 3 Laboratories, and a Dr. David Rahl, who was a director of 4 the National Institute of -- National Center for Environ 5 mental Sciences. 6 ft Was he the chairman of the conference, by the way? 7 A. Yes, he was. 8 Qi Mr. Papageorgu, there's been testimony in this case that 9 " much later Industrial Biotest ran into some trouble with 10 the law because of altering some results. And my question 11 to you is if you had any involvement in that situation? 12 A I had involvement, yes. 13 ft And did any of the questioned work of IBT deal with its 14 work for Monsanto concerning PCB's? 15 A No. 16 ft And were you involved with any of the chemicals that had 17 been tested or whatever by IBT and the results of which 18 were called into question? 19 A Yes. 20 ft What was done, then, with those chemicals that IBT had 21 worked on and the results of which were called into ques 22 tion? 23 A Some of the studies were thoroughly studied and audited 24 and validated by an outside consultant. Booze, Allen & 25 Hamilton, and the results were verified as being neither 300 PHOENIX. BLDG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48708 IS I 71 893-432 I 5226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 IS I 71 792 47 I 2 PACE 5 366 WATER PCB-SD0000037400 1 accurate or TRi City COURT REPORTERS INC. 2 MR. WOODWORTH: Objection. Hearsay as to 3 -- unless they have that certification produced. Your 4 Honor. 5 . MR. JUNGERHELD: Well, Your Honor, that is, 6 Mr. Papageorge was involved in taking steps regarding the 7 chemicals that were involved and what he had been asked 8 to testify to is as to what he did. 9 THE COURT: I'll allow it. 10 A. In addition to the tests that were validated as being 11 accurate and proper, those that didn't pass that criteria 12 were redone at different laboratories. The tests were 13 repeated. 14 ft And did any of them involve PCB? 15 A. No. 16 ft Still talking about 1971, did ym have any other contacts 17 with anybody that may be working with cows and PCB? 18 A. During the year I -- I don't know exactly what month of 19 the year, but I had made contact, personal contact, with 20 Dr. Fries from the Department of Agriculture in Maryland, 21 a Dr. Willett in Ohio with the Ohio Agricultural Research 22 and Development Center, and a Dr. Cook with Michigan State 23 University in Lansing. 24 ft And what did you communicate to those individuals? 25 A. Well, the initial contact would again be one of providing 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. SAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4870S 1517) 893-4321 5226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (317)792-4712 PAGE 5 3 6 7 WATER PCB-SD0000037401 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS _________________________________________________________ INC.___________________ l ; them with materials to use in their testing and sharing 2 with them the collection of articles that I had put 3 together, and dependent on the studies that they were 4 doing and the degree of activities they were involved 5 with. We had telephone conversations to the findings. And 6 I made it a point to visit, whenever I could, with them 7 personally to see what new was developing that they could 8 share with me. 9 Q. And with reference to your contacts with these individuals 10 as it related to PCB in dairy animals, did you develop any 11 impressions from these contacts concerning this substance 12 in dairy animals as to any effects? 13 A No. No health effects. 14 Qi Then, by the end of 1971 what was the status of PCB' s as 15 as Monsanto was concerned? 16 A Well, as far as Monsanto was concerned by the end of *71 we | 17 were selling only to the manufacturers of electrical 18 equipment. We had started a program for discontinuing the 19 sale to the heat transfer applications. We no longer 20 sold to the placticizer, hydraulic fluid for carbonless 21 copy paper applications. We were not aware -- I was not 22 aware and understanding there was no health problem to any 23 creature, human or otherwise. There was a presence problem. 24 No question about that. ' 25 Regarding the milk situation the federal government was 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 19171893-4321 5326 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (517)792 4712 PAGE--52 WATER PCB-SD0000037402 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS _________________________________________________________________________________________________________ ______________ INC.___________________ 1 active through the FDA in their market basket survey 2 trying to determine how much PCB was in the dairy foods 3 as well as cereals and vegetables and fruit and the like. 4 I was with the understanding, definite understanding, 5 there was no concern of a -- for health matters. 6 At the state level I was aware of three states involved 7 with PCB's in milk and silos and that was Ohio, Tennessee 8 and Georgia. We had visited -- I had visited personally 9 with two of them with individual responsibility for 10 monitoring the milk supply in their respective states. 11 This was Ohio and Georgia. I had another individual 12 do it for me in the State of Tennesee. 13 Only two silo companies were involved to my knowledge. 14 There was a Michigan Silo Company in Ohio and a Monteagle, 15 Tennessee Silo Company. That's all I recall about the end 16 of *71. 17 & Now, did there come a time when you met with a Dr. Willett 18 of the OARDC? 19 A. Yes. 20 Ql You may have alluded to that. 21 And what was your purpose in meeting with him? 22 A. Well, I have communicated with Dr. Willett by letter and 23 telephone in the latter part of 1971, and as is my practice 24 I like to meet individuals personally so I made it a point 25 to visit with him in his laboratory in Wooster, Ohio 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (S 171 893-4321 5226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48803 IS I 71 792-47 I 2 PAGE 5 369 WATER PCB-SD0000037403 TRI CITY COURT REPORTERS _______________________________________________________________________________________________ __ INC. I . sometime in early, 1972 to determine what he was studying, 2 what he was doing, what he was finding. 3 Ql To your knowledge had Dr. Willett already been doing some 4 work concerning PCB in dairy cows by that time? 5 A. Oh, yes. Yes. 6 Ql Is that how you happened to learn of him? 7 A. Right. Right. 8 Ql And did you communicate any information to Dr. Willett? 9 A Well, I hail mentioned earlier I had sent him a packet of 10 materials, analytical methodology, enough material to 11 conduct his tests. I don't remember anything else. 12 Qi And did you do anything further concerning any work that 13 Dr. Willett may have had underway at that time? 14 A Yes. When I visited Dr. Willett I was under the vivid 15 impression there was a great concern about completing 16 the study that was underway and it was a study trying to 17 determine where do PCB's end up after a cow has ingested 18 feed with PCB's in it. He was particularly concerned that 19 he could no longer afford the hiring of an analytical 20 chemist to do his analytical work for him, and that kind of 21 disturbed me because the subject ~ the research study .22 was almost completed. It needed that little bit extra to 23 finish it. He asked me if we could help him. I told him, 24 well, I -- right at that moment couldn't offer any sub 25 stantial help but it's certainly worth considering and it 300 PHOENIX. SLOG. SAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 IS 171 893-4321 3228 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (3171 792-4712 page___5 ^7f) WATER PCB-SD0000037404 . TRI -CITY COURT REPORTERS __________________________________________________________________________ 1 would help me understand where he's headed if he would 2 put his needs in writing, and he did that later, and I 3 was able, as I remember, several months later to pay him 4 another visit and presented him personally with a check 5 made out to the Center for $5,000 to complete that ongoing 6 work. 7 ft You say made out to the Center? 8 A. Yes. 9 Qi The OARDC? 10 A. OARDC, correct. 11 ft At the time you first met with Dr. Willett was his study 12 just beginning, or was it well along? 13 A. When I first met him it was well along. U ft Did Monsanto at any time have any control over Dr. 15 Willett's study or the publications of it? 16 A 17 ft 18 19 20 A 21 22 23 24 25 No. . Mr. Papageorge, rather than contributing money to OARDC i for such a study to be conduted, why didn't Monsanto go out and buy some dairy cows and run a study itself? Well, I suppose it could have been done, but in order to do a proper study you have to have individuals with the right expertise and Monsanto, even to this day, doesn't have expertise in chemicals and -- of the PCB type and how it might affect the cattle, milk production, breeding problemsf_________and the like. It's much better to go find some 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAV CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 15171693-4321 3226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (517)792-4712 f'AGE------ 5171- WATER PCB-SD0000037405 . TRI (_lTY COURT REPORTERS ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC.__________________ 1 expert who's very knowledgeable and have him conduct the 2 study for us. 3 ft To your knowledge, Mr. Papageorge, what is Monsanto's 4 practice regarding funding studies and what was it back 5 at that time? 6 A. Well, we fund studies of all kinds. Some of them are 7 very specific to Monsanto and controlled by Monsanto in 8 terms of what material is to be tested and how it's to 9 be tested. That's one kind of study. And those are nor 10 mally, though, placed with companies that are in the busi 11 ness for conducting such studies. 12 There is other funding that's of a general nature where 13 funds are provided by Monsanto to universities with 14 no strings attached. The researchers spend that money as 15 they wish to conduct their studies as they see fit and 16 to report the results as they wish. 17 ft Were these studies back then limited to PCB in dairy 18 animals, or did it deal with broader areas than that? 19 A. Oh, PCB's in dairy animals is only one part of the total. 20 A very small part, really. There are many, many studies 21 involved primarily in the human health arena. 22 Examples that come to mind are the contributions to 23 Harvard Medical School, and Washington University Medical 24 School These are the kinds of activities that Monsanto 25 primarily sponsors. 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (9171693-4321 3226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 13)71792 47 12 PAGE ^ 3 7 2 WATER PCB-SD0000037406 IKI-tllT COURT REPORTERS INC. 1 ft And is there any other areas in which Monsanto funds 2 funds research for this kind of thing? 3 A. Well, they give funds to engineering schools for engineer 4 ing studies. Again, some are very specific but the 5 majority if them are at the discretion of the professor in 6 charge of the program, how he wants to conduct the study, 7 how he will report it, and what publications are made, 8 ft Is this the practice that was followed before the PCB 9 dairy animal, in 1970? 10 A. Yes. And it continues to this very day. 11 THE COURT:. In light of the hour, Mr 12 Jungerheld, we'll take our lunch recess. 13 Members of the Jury we'll call -- return to the Jury 14 Room so we can call for you promptly at 1:15. We'll re 15 convene then. Until then we stand recessed. 16 (Whereupon at 12:00 o'clock noon, a recess 17 was taken until 1:15 o'clock P.M., of the same 18 day, Monday, May 21, 1984.) 19 20 21 oOo- 22 23 24 25 300 PHOENIX. SLOG SAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (SI 71 893*4321 5226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (317)792-4712 PAGfc _5 37 3 WATER PCB-SD0000037407 TRI CITY COURT REPORTERS ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC. 1 (Whereupon at 1:15 o'clock A.M. , the Hearing 2 reconvened.) 3 THE COURT: Good afternoon. Ladies and Gentle 4 men of the Jury. . 5 THE JURY: Good afternoon. 6 THE COURT: Mr. Jungerheld? 7 MR. JUNGERHELD: Thank you, Your Honor. 8 Ql (By Mr. Jungerheld, continuing:) Mr. Papageorge, still 9 talking about the year '72, did there come a time when you 10 made a presentation to the Federal Interagency Task Force 11 on PCB's? 12 A. Yes. 13 ft Were any others involved besides yourself from Monsanto? 14 A. Yes. 15 ft And in sort of a summary fashion, what was the presenta 16 tion done that you made or was made by Monsanto to this 17 particular agency? 18 A The presentation was. put together under my direction and 19 the intent was to share with tho Interagency Task Force 20 on PCB's Monsanto's results of studies that had to do with 21 biodegradation in a simulated environmental situation. 22 Along with that, we took the opportunity of mooting 23 these people to describe with them tho status of Monsanto't 24 PCB product withdrawal program. 25 ft And what was this biodegradation study that you mentioned? 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (317)893-4321 3226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (317)792-47)2 PAGE 5 374_____ - WATER PCB-SD0000037408 INC. trio ry COURT REPORTERS 1 A. This study takes sewage from a municipal treatment plant 2 into the laboratory, wherein glassware, we simulate what 3 happens in a municipal treatment plant, using this sewage, 4 sludge as the source of the bacteria. 5 It's introduced into the equipment, PCB's are added, 6 and air is bubbled through the sludge and water and the 7 PCB's are then analyzed with time. 8 And the intent here is to determine how many of the 9 PCB's disappear or how many survive after a period of 10 time. 11 Q. While I think of it, did Monsanto fund any such studies, 12 that is, relating to, for instance, bacterial degradation 13 on PCB's back in '71? 14 A. Yes. In addition to the work that was going on in 15 Monsanto's laboratory, we were aware of studies going on 16 in the University of Ghent in Wales, and we arranged to finance 17 that study to get another source of similar information 18 to see if our work was good work. 19 Qi Was the IBT, the IBT work that we've talked about earlier, 20 concluded in 1972? 21 A. Yes, the final reports were published in 1972. 22 Q, Was that information shared with anybody? 23 A. Oh, yes. The complete report was shared with the proper 24 professionals in the regulatory agencies. Some of the 25 summaries of the reports were shared with anyone who asked 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 46706 (SI7I 693-4321 5226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 13171792-4712 PAGE 5 17 5 WATER PCB-SD0000037409 tri-city COURT REPORTERS _____________________________________________________________________________ INC._________________ 1 for copies. So that those who Were not toxicolugists or 2 medical doctors or pharmacologists would get the summary 3 instead of the full report. 4 Cl Did you meet again with Dr. Willett in 1972? 5 A Well, the second visit in '72 was a visit I described 6 earlier in which I was able to present his research center 7 with a small amount of money to help him complete his on 8 going study. 9 fr 10 11 i A. 12 And was there any other reason you wanted to meet with him at that time? Well, again, it's my continuing effort to try to keep upto-date on what is going on and, of course, at that time, 13 which I think was, as best I can remember, about July or 14 so of 1972, I had copies of the Task Force report that 15 was issued the previous May. I brought along a copy with 16 me and left it with Dr. Willett in the event he hadn't a 17 copy yet. 18 Ci Was that the Task Force to which you had made a -- you and 19 some others with Monsanto made the presentation we talked 20 about just a moment ago? 21 A Yes. 22 ft Did you have impressions from Dr. Willett as to whether 23 there had been any new development in the dairy-farm-silo- 24 PCB situation? 25 A No new developments in a dramatic kind of way. My real 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (517)893-4321 5226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (5171792-4712 PAGE 5 3 7 6 WATER PCB-SD0000037410 ______________________________________________ ________________________________________ TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS INC.__________________ 1 concern was any health effects or any effects on the 2 animals. 1 understood that none were observed. 3 ft During this year did your duties continue to have anything 4 to do with the dispersal of information concerning PCB's? 5 A. That was one of my principal duties, yes; freely disperse 6 any and all information we had. 7 ft And without going through inquiry by inquiry or meeting by 8 meeting, would this be sort of a general duty that you had 9 during this period of time? 10 A. Yes. - 11 ft And in this year, and we're kind of maybe in a way sum 12 marizing 1972, what was the status of PCB sales? 13 A PCB sales by the end of '72 were limited only to electri 14 cal equipment. All other uses were discontinued. 15 ft Let's talk briefly about the year of '73. What did you 16 do that year as it related to PCB in the environment? 17 A Of course, we continued our information sharing program. 18 That was always ongoing, day in, day out. 19 ft Did you have occasion to go to Europe that year? 20 A Yes, that year I did go back to Europe. 21 ft What was the purpose for that visit on this occasion then? 22 A It was two-fold. One is to communicate again with the 23 producers of PCB's in Europe regarding their current 24 understanding and actions regarding PCB; and the second 25 purpose, I was- aware of a disposal facility in the United 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4S70B 19 I 71 893-4331 5226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 IS I 71 792 47 13 PAGE ^ 377 WATER PCB-SD0000037411 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC._________________ 1 Kingdom which was really a -- what I thought was to be a 2 more modern incinerator; that I was very interested in 3 seeing how it operated, whether it might be helpful to 4 the United States situation. 5 ft By that time had the plant that Monsanto had in Britain 6 that had manufactured PCB's, had it stopped sales for non 7 electrical uses? 8 A. Yes. The program for Monsanto PCB's was world wide. 9 ft Did the British plant then stop when the American plants 10 did? 11 A Yes. 12 ft How about your competitors in Europe? Did they stop manu 13 facturing in '73? 14 A No. The competitors were -- did not agree with Monsanto's 15 approach. In fact, they were disturbed that what we were 16 doing might impact on their business. They were, in fact, 17 very indignant. 18 ft Mr. Papageorge, did you have a meeting with Mr. Willett or 19 Dr. Willett and Mr. Boswell that year? 20 A In 1973, yes. 21 ft And what was the subject of that meeting? 22 A Mr. Boswell was involved in a very active program with 23 his customers in sandblasting and replastering silos that 24 he had constructed in Tennessee and Georgia. The approach 25 he was using was expensive. It was perceived as being 300 PHOeNIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 IS 17) 893-4321 S22S STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 1317) 792 47 12 PAGE . 5378 ' WATER PCB-SD0000037412 1 expensive. TRl CITY COURT REPORTERS INC. I 2 He was very interested in learning from us are there 3 better ways to do it not only economically but faster, 4 because the time he had to work was limited to a few months 5 in the summer and he just could not take care of all the 6 silos quickly enough. 7 Qi Is this the same Mr. Boswell of the Monteagle Silo Company 8 that you had met with earlier? 9 A. Yes. _ 10 Qi In the year of 1973, then, perhaps if to summarize in a 11 few words, did you learn anything new regarding the pre 12 sence or effects of PCB in the environment? 13 A. In 1973 nothing new, no. 14 Ql Did your job title and responsibilities then change at 15 this point? 16 A. Sometime in 1973 I was retitled, yes. 17 Qi And what was your new title? 18 A. The title was manager of products acceptability. 19 Qi And did your duties change or the burden of your duties 20 change, shall we say, as far as that amount of it that 21 related to PCB? 22 A. The PCB duties remained essentially the same. 23 Qi Did you have additional duties? 24 A I was given duties involving another list of products. 25 Q. What kind of duties did you have regarding these other 300 PHOENIX. BLDG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4S708 IS 1 71 093*4321 5228 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48B03 (a I :i 792-47 1 2 PAGE ^ ^79 WATER PCB-SD0000037413 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS _________________________________________________________________________________________________________ __________ INC________________ 1 products ? 2 A. Oh, more or loss routine duties regarding to product in 3 formation, labeling, customer communication as appropriate 4 ft So PCB's then by this time had become to be just a part 5 of your duties whereas previously they had been pretty 6 much full-time, is that correct? 7 A. That is correct. 8 Ql And in 1974 did anything of significance occur involving 9 you in 1974 as it related to PCB? _ 10 A I don't recall anything other than the routine occurring 11 during 1974. Things had become more or less stabilized. 12 I don't recall anything outstanding, 13 ft Did your function in terms of communicating information 14 continue? 15 A Yes, that was always there. 16 ft Did you continue to be in contact with governmental 17 agencies as the need or interest arose? 18 A Yes, I was still attending group sessions. I was meeting 19 individuals on a one-on-one basis, 20 ft Was any consideration given then sometime that year to 21 ceasing production even for the electrical industry? 22 A Well, that thought always was with us, but, yes, in 23 1974 it became a little more crystal clear that perhaps 24 there, too, if the electrical industry could find a sub 25 stitute, we would be very willing to terminate all PCB 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (317)893-4321 3226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (317)792-47 12 PAGE 5 38 0 WATER PCB-SD0000037414 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC.________________ 1 sales, yes. 2 Qi Mr. Papageorge, going on now to 1975. Did you have occa 3 sion to meet with any government officials in Michigan 4 in '75 relating to PCB? 5 A. Yes, I did. 6 Qi And who was it and how did it come about? 7 A I met with a Mr. Van Patten, I think it's a Kenneth 8 Van Patten, who was in the Department of Agriculture, as 9 I remember, having to do with dairy matters. 10 Ql Had you earlier heard of any PCB dairy situation in 11 Michigan? 12 A No, that was my first awareness of PCB's in milk in 13 Michigan. 14 Q. You have testified earlier to contact with Dr. Hill of 15 Ohio and Mr. Egan of the Michigan Silo Company. Were you 16 advised in any of those contacts with any silo situation 17 in Michigan, silo PCB situation in Michigan? 18 A Did I advise them or -- 19 Q. Did they advise you? 20 A No, no one. They or anyone else. 21 Qi And over the years before '75, had you had occasion to 22 be in contact with Michigan government officials at some 23 of those confurcm.es that vou talked about? 24 A Yes, I did. I meet many- representatives of the State of 25 Michigan, but these were with respecttothe Great Lakes and 300 PHOeNIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 487OB 13171893-4321 322B STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48803 1317)792-4712 PAGE ^ 38 1 WATER PCB-SD0000037415 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS INC 1 fish and PCB's. At no time was milk -- PCB in the milk 2 supply mentioned, although Dr. Cook at Michigan State was 3 studying PCB's in milk. I was aware of his work. 4 But I met a Dr. -- I believe his name was Humphreys 5 from the Michigan Department of Public Health on many 6 occasions; PCB seminars and the like. 7 Ql Now, in '75, then, when you learned of the Michigan 8 situation, what did you do? 9 A Well, I repeated what I had done for the other states 10 in each case when we heard of PCB in milk. My first step 11 was to discuss with the authorities in the state who had 12 responsibilities for monitoring milk to find out the ex 13 tent of the problem, the levels found, any health effects 14 noted or known. IS So I did exactly in Michigan what I had done previously 16 in Ohio and in Georgia and that I had done for me in 17 Tennessee, talked with the individuals responsible for 18 milk monitoring. 19 Qi Did you come to Michigan in connection with that? 20 A. Yes. 21 Ql And then did you meet with Mr. Van Patten in person? 22 A Yes. 23 Qi Did you provide information to Mr. Van Patten? 24 A There, again, yes, I talked with him about the program that 25 was being done in Tennessee and Georgia in terms ofj 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4B706 IS 171 693-4321 3326 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (517)792-4712 PAfigS 38 2 WATER PCB-SD0000037416 TRI CITY COURT REPORTERS ____________________________________ __ ______________ ________________________________________________________________INC. 1 cleaning up si Los, placing them back in service. 2 I mentioned the Ohio situation. I was under the 3 impression that this was not news to him. He was well 4 aware of it. 5 I was also left with the impression that Mr. Van Patten 6 did not see any need to act precipitously. He was well 7 aware of the need to protect the milk supply in Michigan, 8 but he was not in -- by any means in a position to state 9 he was going to stop any milk from reaching the market 10 place, because he did not perceive it to be a serious 11 problem. 12 Q, So you both gave information to Mr. Van Patten, received 13 information from him, is that correct? 14 A. That is correct. 15 MR. WOODWORTH: Object as to this being in 16 formation that he received from Mr. Van Patten. I thought 17 that this is coming in, again, as the other testimony, 18 as his impressions, therefore being an exception to the 19 Hearsay Rule. But if they want to put it in as informa 20 tion from Mr. Van Patten, it's hearsay. 21 THE COURT: I will sustain the objection. 22 MR. JUNGERHELD-: All right. In my defense, 23 Your Honor, I would offer that I did not ask him what the 24 information was, merely that he communicated information 25 to Van Patten and received it from him. 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 IS 171 893-4321 5228 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (S 1 71 792-47 1 2 PAGE 538 3 WATER PCB-SD0000037417 TRI CITY COURT REPORTERS _________________________________________________________INC 1 THE COURT: Well, from the information that 2 he received, he formed certain impressions. 3 MR. JUNGERHELD: Yes. 4 TIIE COURT: Which somebody else might have 5 formed a different -- so I'll sustain the objection. 6 It's merely his impression of what Mr. Van Patten's 7 situation was. 8 ft Did you have occasion in this trip to Michigan to find out 9 about any silo companies? 10 A Yes. - 11 ft And from whom did you find out about the silo companies? 12 A I don't recall specifically. It could have been Mr. 13 Van Patten and it also could have come from our Law 14 Department. One of the two. I don't remember just which. 15 ft And what did you do in connection with any silo companies 16 in Michigan? 17 A We arranged to meet with representatives of the C & B Silo 18 Company. 19 ft Do you remember where that took place? 20 A In Charlotte, Michigan. 21 ft And on who's facilities? .22 A At the office site of the company. 23 ft Why did you meet with the people from the C & B Silo 24 Comany? 25 A I had the understanding from -- the C & B Silo Company 300 phoenix, blog. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (917)893-4321 S22 state st. PAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48803 1317)792-4712 page ^ ^8 4 WATER PCB-SD0000037418 . TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS ____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC._________________ 1 had been involved in constructing some silos that had 2 been constructed using Michigan Silo supplies and under 3 Michigan Silo contracts that had been purchased by the 4 C & B Silo Company. 5 Qi Did you have any other understanding as to whether or not 6 the facilities on which you were standing at that time 7 had ever belonged to Michigan Silo? 8 A. I was not aware of that. 9 Q. And did you on this occasion gain any understanding as to 10 whether or not C & B used the silo coating that we heard 11 in this case, called Cumar? 12 A Yes. 13 Ql And what was your understanding in that regard? 14 A My understanding was that upon purchase of the contracts, 15 the coating was made available as part of the materials 16 that were involved in constructing or modifying silos 17 and that is coating was applied to the silos and consumed; 18 and the site no longer had any supply of Cumar on hand 19 when we visited, when I visited. 20 Qi Mr. Papageorge, speaking still of '75, did you have any 21 occasion to address or attend an EPA seminar, PCB siminar 22 in Chicago? 23 A Yes, 1 did. 24 Qi What was your function on that occasion? 25 A I was asked to serve on a panel with other individuals to 300 PHOENIX. BCOG. 8AY CITY, MICHIGAN 48708 (3171893-4321 3228 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (3171792-47 12 PAGE ..5385___ WATER PCB-SD0000037419 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS ____________________________________________________________ _________________________ ________ ______________ INC. 1 answer questions from the floor at the end of the session. 2 Q. And do you remember what information you or anybody else 3 from Monsanto, if you were present when this occurred, 4 communicated to this panel? What were the areas covered, 5 if you can characterize it that way, and perhaps summarize 6 it that way. 7 A. The Monsanto contribution was the summarizing of the 8 animal toxicity studies and this was presented in 9 Monsanto's behalf by Dr. Calandra, the president of the 10 Industrial Biotest Laboratories. 11 ft Speaking now through the end of 1975, Mr. Papageorge, 12 you have spent some time here over the last day and part 13 of the end of the prior day's testimony, outlining what 14 was done by Monsanto as we have discussed. 15 In '75 -- by the end of '75 were there any government 16 regulations that have required any of this activity to be 17 done? 18 A. No, no. All of this that Monsanto did to control the amoun: 19 of PCB's in commerce was at Monsanto's own inititive. 20 There was no legal requirement to do anything regarding 21 PCB's. 22 ft Now, speaking of 1976, did you have any significant in 23 volvement at all that year as it related to your duties, 24 as you talked about, concerning PCB? 25 A. My association with PCB's directly, my direct association 300 PHOENIX. BLDG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4B70S (317) 893-4321 S228 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48003 (S 1 7) 792-47 1 2 PAGE 5 3 R fi WATER PCB-SD0000037420 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS ____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC.__________________ 1 terminated the 1st of March, '76, but I was asked to serve 2 on a panel formed by the National Institute of Occupa 3 tional Safety and Health, that is NIOSH, in reviewing a 4 document they call the PCB criteria document. And this 3 review panel met in Cincinnati in the latter part of 6 1976 and I was there. 7 ft Mr. Papageorge, there has been some testimony in this 8 case about some legislation called -- that's been 9 referred to as FIFRA, F-I-F-R-A, I believe. 10 Are you familiar with that at all? 11 A Yes. 12 ft And did that deal with PCB in any way? 13 A No. 14 ft We also talked in this case about NEPA. Are you familiar 15 with that act? 16 A Yes. 17 ft And when, by the way, was that passed, if you know? 18 A It was passed in 1969. 19 ft What did that deal with? 20 A That was the enabling legislation that allowed for the 21 formation of the Environmental Protection Agency, their 22 administration. 23 ft When did that agency actually begin functioning -- in 24 place and functioning? 25 A It was evolving during 1970. The principal individuals 300 PHOENIX. BLDG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48708 IS 17) 893-4321 3228 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 <3 17) 792-47 t 2 PAGE ..5.3 8 7------- WATER PCB-SD0000037421 TRI CITY COURT REPORTERS INC. 1 were in place early in the year, but those that would 2 do the actual work were not available until the latter 3 part of the year. It was not -- there was not too much 4 activity in 1970. 5 ft And what did that -- what did that deal with, the MEPA or 6 the EPA then? 7 A That dealt with water pollution, air emissions, primarily*, a at that point in time. 9 ft Mr. Papageorge, earlier there's been an exhibit intro 10 duced which purported to be the recipe or, I guess, to be u technical, the formula of the Cumar silo coating. And 12 with reference to the ingredients, peridene was listed 13 as one of them. 14 Was that a Monsanto product? 15 A No. 16 ft And there was listed on the ingredients a nevil resin. 17 Was the nevil resin a Monsanto product? 18 A No. 19 ft How about clay? 20 A No. 21 ft How about Parlon? 22 A No. 23 ft How about -- of course, the Aroclor was, correct? 24 A Yes. 25 ft And xylol. 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48708 19171893-4321 _________________________________ _______________________ 3228 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48803 (5171 792-4712 e. io o PAGE----------------------- WATER PCB-SD0000037422 TRI CITY COURT REPORTERS _____________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________ INC_______________ 1 A. No. 2 ft And SC solvents? 3 A No. 4 ft Did Monsanto sell any of those products, let alone manu 5 facture them, other than Aroclor, of course? 6 A No. 7 ft Mr. Papageorge, did Monsanto ever have a facility in 8 Martinsville, Illinois, for manufacture or sale? 9 A Not to my knowledge. 10 ft Did Monsanto, to your knowledge, ever manufacture a silo 11 coating per se? 12 A No. 13 ft Have you ever heard of any other situations where PCB's 14 reached out of a coating into the food or feed chain? 15 A No. 16 MR. JUNGERHELD: Your Honor, I believe that's 17 all at this time of this witness. 18 THE COURT: Mr. Davidson? 19 MR. DAVIDSON: No questions, Your Honor. 20 TIIE COURT: Mr. Woodworth? 21 MR. WOODWORTH: Thank you. Your Honor. 22 Your Honor, one matter if we could approach the bench. 23 THE COURT: You may. 24 (Whereupon a discussion was held out of the 25 hearing of the Jury.) 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48700 (3171893-4321 5220 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48003 1517)792-4712 PAGE 5389 WATER PCB-SD0000037423 TR! CITY COURT REPORTERS ____ ________________________________________________________________INC 1 THE COURT: Members of the Jury, I have a 2 legal matter to dispose of. If you would retire to the 3 Jury Room. 4 (Whereupon a legal matter ensued in the ab 5 sence of the Jury.) 6 THE COURT: Go ahead, Mr. Woodworth. 7 MR. WOODWORTH: Thank you, Your Honor. 8 CROSS-EXAMINATION 9 BY MR. WOODWORTH: 10 ft Hello, Mr. Papageorge. Mr. Papageorge, you are a chemical 11 engineer, is that correct? 12 A That is correct. 13 ft And as such you would be a subscriber or periodically re 14 view the Chemical and Engineering News? 15 A Yes. 16 ft And, as a matter of fact, Monsanto advertised in that maga-- 17 zine over a number of years? 18 A Yes. 19 ft And during the 1960's Monsanto advertised its Aroclor 20 products in Chemical and Engineering News, did they not? 21 A I don't remember specifically but it's highly likely that 22 they did, yes. 23 ft And within your business, do you consider that a reputable 24 publication? 25 A Yes. 300 PHOENIX. SLOG. SAY CITY. MICHIGAN 46708 IS 171 893-4321 5226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 46603 1517)792-4712 PAGE ^ ^ ^ ^ WATER PCB-SD0000037424 TRI CITY COURT REPORTERS _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC.___________________ 1 gi You testified, Ml. Papageorge, upon direct examination 2 that you belonged to or you shared your information in 3 1970 and subsequent to that with a number of governmental 4 organizations, science organizations, and so on, about 5 PCB's, is that correct? 6 A. That is correct. 7 Q, And that you also participated with an intra-governmental 3 task force, is that correct? 9 A That is correct. 10 Q, In 1970 after the concern came about, about PCB's, did the 11 government request of Monsanto the sales figures of PCB 12 for over the years? 13 A Requests were made by representatives of the government, 14 but they were never official requests. Individual re 15 quests. 16 Qi And, in fact, those requests were not honored by Monsanto 17 for quite some time, were they? 13 A That is correct. 19 Q, And in that sense you did not willingly provide the in 20 formation to the governmental agencies seeking the informa 21 tion, is that correct? 22 A That is right. 23 Q And are you aware of whether or not there was any type of 24 attempted legislation in late 1971 by the federal govern 25 ment to compel chemistry industries to devulge such 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 13171893-4321 5226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (517)792 4712 PAGE 5 391 WATER PCB-SD0000037425 THI CITY COURT REPORTERS INC 1 information? 2 A. I'm not aware of that. 3 Q. When ultimately did Monsanto release its sale production 4 figures of PCB's to the government and to the scientific 5 community? 6 A. As I remember, that was late 1971. Monsanto sent the in 7 formation by mail, registered mail, return receipt re 8 quested, and it was not accepted and the government -- 9 the mail came back undelivered. 10 Q. Mr. Papageorge, I'm just going to show you -- it's not a 11 very good one, but it's a copy of a page out of Chemial 12 and Engineering News regarding that article there. 13 Have you ever seen that before? 14 A. I remember this, yes. 15 Q, Now, was there not a lot of governmental pressure on 16 Monsanto in 1971 to release its sales figures? 17 A. I did not perceive it as governmental pressure. I per 18 ceived it as the desire on some of the members in the 19 government to see these numbers and they tried on several 20 occasions to get them from Monsanto. 21 Qi And, in fact, until that time when it was divulged, do 22 you know when it was? Does this help your recollection, 23 this article, as to when that material was ultimately 24 turned over? 25 A We finally sent it to the Department of Commerce in 300 PHOENIX. SLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 IS I 71 893-4321 5226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 IS I 7) 792-47 12 PAGE 5 39 2 WATER PCB-SD0000037426 TRI CITY COURT REPORTERS INC. I November: of 1971. 2 ft Okay. So in that sense, if we might correctly characterize 3 your testimony, during the years of 1970 and on up to 4 December, 1971, when I had understood your testimony to 5 say that Monsanto was cooperating with the government and 6 cooperating with the scientific community, at least we're 7 to the point Monsanto did not cooperate to the extent of 8 supplying how much they had made of this PCB over a number 9 of years, is that correct?" 10 A. That is correct. 11 ft And am I correct to characterize the reason that informa 12 tion was kept secret was because Monsanto Corporation had 13 considered the information, what would be called a trade 14 secret, is that right? 15 A I don't know what you mean by the expression, "trade 16 secret." 17 ft I picked that up someplace in the literature and that is 18 why I'm asking you. 19 A Well, the reason it was not shared is many-fold. One of 20 them is that our -- my distinct understanding and impres 21 sion that divulging these numbers would contribute nothing, 22 really, to understanding why PCB's end up in the North 23 Sea or in the swamps of Louisana and the like. We did 24 not see it as being a productive piece of information. 25 Secondly, we have an obligation to our customers and 300 PHOENIX. SLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48708 1317) 893-4321 3228 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 15 I 7) 792-47 1 2 PAGE 5393 WATER PCB-SD0000037427 tri city COURT REPORTERS _____________________________________________________ _________________________________________________________________ INC.________ 1 to our shareholders and our employees that when we 2 voluntarily phase out of a business, that we not allow 3 the competitors an advantage by sharing with them numbers 4 that would give them an idea of the marketplace. We 5 thought we could -- and still do, we could responsibly 6 remove the product from the marketplace and still try to 7 retain some of the business with substitute materials. 8 Qi Okay. Mr. Papagcorge, are you familiar with the publi 9 cation entitled Science? 10 A. Yes. 11 0. And is that considered a fairly reputable publication? 12 A Yes. 13 gt I'm going to show you another clipping that I have here 14 and I bracketed just one paragraph there. I'd ask you 15 to read that, please. 16 THE COURT: To himself I -- 17 MR. WOODWORTH: Yes, I'm sorry. 18 MR. JUNGERHELD: Your Honor, I wonder if we 19 might have a date or title or something from this. 20 MR. WOODWORTH: I'd just like him to refresh 21 his recollection. 22 THE COURT: Let him look at that. Maybe he 23 will be able to supply that to Mr. Jungerheld. 24 A I don't specifically recall this document but it appears 25 to be an article out of Science, dated September, 1971. 300 PHOENIX. BLOC. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (917) 893*4321 3228 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 46603 (S.7) 792-4712 PAGE 5 3Q 4 WATER PCB-SD0000037428 TRI CITY COURT REPORTERS INC 1 ft This is probably whert I got the information or I got 2 the term, "trade secret." 3 MR. JUNGERHELD: Is Counsel testifying now. 4 Your Honor. 5 MR. WOODWORTH: I'm explaining to him as to 6 what the words trade secret is. 7 THE COURT: Go ahead. 8 ft Was there not a lawin effect at that particular time that 9 permitted a company in certain situations to withhold in 10 formation which it might consider to jeopardize its com 11 petitive advantages? 12 A. I'm not familiar with such a law. 13 Ql Did the National Academy of Sciences in 1971 disagree with 14 Monsanto's policy of withholding the information? 15 A. That is what the article says. 16 ft Do you have any recollection of that yourself? 17 A. No, I don't. 18 Ci What is the National Academy of Sciences? 19 A. It is a group or an association of reputable sciences 20 that, to my understanding, is funded by congressional 21 funds. It is not, in my understanding, a regulatory .22 agency of the government. 23 ft In reading this, does it refresh your recollection at all 24 as to whether there was any type of bill being processed? 25 A. There is a sentence that refers to that here. 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4S706 1317)893-4321 S22B STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (517)792-47 12 PAGE ^ 3 9 5 WATER PCB-SD0000037429 TRl Cl ,-Y COURT REPORTERS INC. 1 ft Do you recall that yourself, now, independently? 2 A. No, I don't. I never had that impression. 3 Qi There was a position taken -- do you recall whether or not 4 the National Academy of Sciences undertook a position 5 stating that this information was important? 6 MR. JUNGERHELD: Your Honor, now he is being 7 asked -- he is testifying he does not have recollection of 8 this document or this article. He is now being asked, 9 in essence, apparently, to read from it or select portions 10 from it. If that is going to be the case, I think we're 11 entitled at least to take a look at it. 12 MR. WOODWORTH: I'm not asking him to read 13 from it at all. He can put the document aside. I will 14 take it back, even. 15 THE COURT: Why don't you do that. Make it 16 clear to him when you are asking him these questions, you 17 are asking of his memory refreshed. 18 ft In 1971 do you recall the position o.f the National Academy 19 of Sciences insofar as it related to Monsanto's position 20 of not releasing the production figures of Aroclors and 21 PCB's ? 22 A No. 23 ft Do you know whether they had one or not, of your own in 24 dependent recollection? . 25 A I never heard from them, no. 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4B706 1917)893-4321 5226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 1517)792-4712 PA(;f5 39 6_______ WATER PCB-SD0000037430 t rtl-v-ti r COURT REPORTERS _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________INC.____________________ 1 Qi The production figures wore finally released to the 2 government in late November, did you say? 3 A. Yes. 4 Ql Late November of 1971. Was it in fact more than a year 3 after Monsanto decided to terminate its use in open-ended 6 systems, is that correct? 7 A. Yes. 8 Qi The production figures that were released to the govern 9 ment, can you tell us what they added up to be? How 10 much polychlorinated biphenyls was produced by Monsanto 11 over the years? 12 A. I never added up the total, no, because there are many 13 years that are missing prior to the beginning of that re 14 port. I have forgotten the exact dates. 15 Qi Although you haven't added up the figures, these years 16 that you have spent being Monsanto's manager or director 17 of its PCB's,have you not seen in theliterature a number 18 as to how much PCB Monsanto has produced over the years? 19 A. I've seen it but I don't remember it. 20 Qi You don't have any recollection whatsoever? 21 A. I honestly don't. All I remember is that we reached a 22 maximum of eighty million pounds a year and it goes back 23 to 1929 at zero. So I guess one could estimate. 24 Qi Do you remember what your production was in 1970 com 25 pared to the production in 1969? 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 <317)893-4321 3226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 40603 (517)792-47 12 PAGE ^ ^ ^ ^ WATER PCB-SD0000037431 ^ HI CITY COURT REPORTS RS ____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________INC 1 A. No, I don't. 2 Qi Of polychlorinated biphenyls? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Do you remember whether or not the production in 1970, 5 the year that you began to withdraw this from open-ended 6 use, was higher or lower than your production or manu 7 facture of PCB's in 1969? 8 A. 1970 was higher than '69 because of economic conditions. 9 It was a good year. Had nothing to do with withdrawal. 10 ft. I didn't mean to imply that. I'd just like to know whethe:: 11 it's higher or lower. 12 And, Mr. Papageorge, 1971, was that higher or lower 13 than 1970? 14 A I don't remember. 15 ft Let's move over to these letters. You have read a number 16 of these letters that were sent out. For example. 17 Defendant's Exhibit 419, which we also admitted in our 18 case as a Plaintiffs' exhibit. 19 Mr. Papageorge, you said that was sent out -- and I 20 think that is -- yes, that was sent out to customers? 21 A That we're looking at now is it a copy of what was sent .22 to customers? Yes. 23 ft Wasn't that sent only to present customers, customers who 24 might have been purchasing in 1970 or those carried over 25 from 1969? 300 PHOENIX. SLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 19171893-4321 5226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (5 I 71 792-47 I 2 PAGE 5 398____ WATER PCB-SD0000037432 TRICITY COURT REPORTERS _______________________________________________ _____________________________________________________________________ INC. 1 A. Yes. 2 ft That was not sent to old customers, only those who might 3 have carried over from the 1969 customer list? 4 A. These are the active customers as of 1970, yes. 5 ft By the way, Mr. Papageorge, prior to testifying did you 6 have an opportunity to review any of the depositions or 7 daily transcripts in this case? 8 A. Yes. 9 ft Did you review Mr. O'Connors? 10 A. Only a summary, not the full transcript. 11 ft And who compiled the summary? 12 A. The attorneys did. 13 ft And Mr. O'Connor testified as to these letters and the 14 labels and another set of documents, the news releases, 15 did he not? 16 A Yes. 17 ft And did you read a summary of that testimony? 18 A Yes. 19 ft Mr. Papageorge, I'm going to show you what's been marked 20 and admitted as Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 349, and this has 21 been compiled as a -- what it states to be, a sales 22 summary. 23 Now, it contains on there sales to silo companies, 24 does it not? 25 A Yes. 300 PHOeNIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (3171 S93-432I 5223 STATE ST. --AGINAW. MICHIGAN 4B603 (3 171792-4712 5399 PAGE______________ WATER PCB-SD0000037433 TRICITY COURT REPORTERS INC. 1 ft Do you know whether or not those were direct sales by 2 Monsanto to the silo companies of Aroclors, Aroclor 3 1254? 4 A. I can from the dates speculate what they were. 5 ft Direct sales. Okay. And why would you -- why would the * 6 dates be significant? 7 A Because in the late '60's Monsanto arranged with dis 8 tributors to sell the PCB's to those customers that received or 9 ordered material in less than truckload quantities. 10 ft Ohio Solvents, Hoosier Solvents, that kind of companies, 11 for example? 12 A Those are examplus, yes. 13 ft So when these warning letters or these notifications came 14 out over a period of time, none of those went to these 15 companies, did they? 16 A That is correct. 17 ft These letters that came out, Mr. Papageorge, I have a ques 18 tion on one ~ a question on two of them. 19 Here you refer this August 14th letter to your letter 20 of February 27, 1970, right, and June 1, 1970, as to 21 prior letters, correct? 22 A Yes. 23 ft Regarding withdrawal. We even go back to May of 1970 24 saying that they're going to withdraw this from sale 25 ______ effective August 30, 1970, as a plasticizer?___________________ 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 IS I 71 893-4321 S22 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 4S603 15171792-4712 PAGE 5.4 00---------- WATER PCB-SD0000037434 TRI CITY COURT REPORTERS INC 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Why didn't you just stop selling it for plasticizer rather 3 than going and writing everybody and saying we're going 4 to be stopping it? 5 A. I don't understand the question. 6 Qt In May of 1970 rather than sending a letter out and saying 7 in August -- at the end of August or September 1st we're 8 going to stop selling it as a plasticizer, why didn't you 9 just right out and say we are not selling this as a 10 plasticizer anymore for use in plasticizers? 11 A. Precipitous action like that is irresponsible. It leaves 12 the customer without any opportunity to develop a new 13 product. 14 Qi And, in fact, what this does, though, it lets customers 15 know that you are going out of business and let them load 16 up on it, though, too, isn't it? 17 A. That is speculation on your part. I don't know. 18 Qt That opportunity is there, is it not? 19 A. Anybody can guess that. 20 Qi Have you ever looked over your sales figures from February 21 to September 1st for Aroclor 1254 or anyof these Aroclors 22 and see if it was increased or decreased? 23 A. I looked them over. I don't recall. 24 Qi Have you encountered that same question in any other matter? 25 A. No. 304 PHOENIX. SLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4670S (5171893-4321 522S STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 1517)792-4712 PAGE ___5 4 Q 3__ WATER PCB-SD0000037435 TPI CITY COURT REPORTERS INC. 1 Q. Mr. Pupugeorgo, us you are well aware, this case in 2 volves a claim for PCB's being situated within silos. 3 Your deposition was taken in this case, is that right? 4 A Yes. 5 Ql Just for the advantage of the Jury, I'm sure we are 6 familiar with it, do you recall the day it was taken? 7 A. I believe it was January, 1983. I believe that's it. 8 QL And, in fact, it was a rather long deposition, wasn't it? 9 A Yes. 10 Ql Besides reviewing a summary of Mr. O'Connor's testimony 11 prior to trial, what else have you reviewed? 12 A I reviewed documents that I was told had been submitted 13 as exhibits in this matter. 14 Ql And for example? 15 A Oh, all these letters that we talked about earlier. I 16 draw a blank at the moment. There were several. I don't 17 remember them all. 18 Ql Did you review any other testimony or summaries of testi 19 mony? 20 A Yes. 21 Ql And who else's? 22 A Just about everybody that appeared before this Court 23 through May the 9th. 24 Ql So you are well aware of what has transpired up to this 25 date in a curtain sense for as much as you could -- 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 13171893-4321 5236 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 15 17)792-47 12 PAr.P 54Q2____ WATER PCB-SD0000037436 tricity COURT REPORTERS ______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC_________________ 1 A. In summary form, yes. 2 Q, And you have been present here in Court on and off for 3 the last couple weeks? 4 A. Yes. 5 ft Do you personally on on behalf of Monsanto have any idea 6 on how the PCB's got in the Gemmell or the Haley silos? 7 A Only what I have been told. 8 ft Okay. But as a result of your opinion -- or what you 9 have been told, do you have an opinion on how they got 10 into the silos? 11 A Yes. 12 ft Okay. And what is that? What is your opinion? 13 A My opinion is that an individual who was in the silo con 14 struction business through some advice from a universi ty 15 professor came up with a coating recipe that he would 16 mix on his own, using supplies that he would purchase at 17 some distributor's. That's my understanding. 18 This coating was not only used by his company but 19 other silo companies. And as a result we had PCB's in 20 silos and milk. 21 ft Do you recall being asked that very same question, though, 22 in your deposition in January as to whether you had any 23 idea as to how the PCB's got into the Haley or Gemmell 24 silos? 25 A I don't recall it specifically. 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 IS I 71 893-4321 5226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 1317) 792-4712 PAGE 540 3 WATER PCB-SD0000037437 TRl CITY COURT REPORTERS _________________________________________________________________________________________ ____________________________ INC. 1 ft Mr. Papageorge, if I can read you a question and answer 2 on Page 275 of your deposition, commencing at Line 15, 3 and this is by Mr. John McGraw asking you the questions. 4 "All right. Does Monsanto or do you have any knowledge 5 or idea how PCB's got into the Gemmell or Haley silos? 6 Answer: No." 7 Mr. Papageorge, when did you become aware of the 8 sealant or coating for silos that is called Cumar, not the 9 trademark name of Allied Chemical, but the Cumar that 10 we're taking about in this case? 11 A I became aware of that during my conversations with Dr. 12 Hill starting in March, 1970, and for several weeks follow 13 ing that. 14 ft And I imagine at that particular time if I may surmise, 15 that your identification or your knowledge of that was it 16 was used inside of silos as a sealant, is that correct? 17 A That is what 1 was told, again. 18 Q, To your knowledge was Aroclor 1254 recommended by Monsanto 19 as an ingredient in sealants for concrete? 20 A Yes. 21 ft And were those sealants which Monsanto recommended the use 22 of Aroclor 1254 within, were those represented to be able 23 to resist acid alkalines, chemcials and molds? 24 A Yes. 25 ft Would you agree, Mr. Papageorge, that in this case, in 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (317)893-4321 5226 STATE ST. ! AGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (517)792 4712 5404 PAGE WATER PCB-SD0000037438 TRI CiTY COURT REPORTERS _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC.__________________ 1 fact, Aroclur 1254, Monsanto's trademark product, was 2 used in the Cumar to be coated inside the Haley silos? 3 A. I can't be totally positive, but the information would 4 indicate so, yes. 5 ft Have you had an opportunity to read the pleadings in this 6 case, the complaint that was filed against Monsanto and 7 the answers? 8 A. I don't recall seeing that, no. 9 ft You have answered some interrogatories yourself in this 10 case, haven't you? 11 A. I've been involved, yes. 12 ft Can you characterize of a general nature, without going 13 through each and every interrogatory at this particular 14 time, the general nature as to whether or not during the 15 process of discovery, whether or not Monsanto admitted 16 any knowledge of Aroclor 1254 being in the Cumar? 17 A. I don't remember. 18 ft How about whether or not Monsanto admitted any knowledge 19 of Aroclor 1254 being in the Haley silos? 20 A I don't remember that at all. 21 ft When you came to Michigan in 1975, you visited Mr. Van 22 Patten at the Michigan Department of Agriculture and then 23 you also visited -- did you say what the person's name 24 was at C & B? 25 A No, I didn't say. 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4B706 IS 171 893-4321 I don't recall it at the moment. There S22S STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 4BB03 (5171 792-4712 5405 PAGE . WATER PCB-SD0000037439 1 were two individaula. TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS INC. 2 Q. If I might try to assist you. Would it have been Ralph 3 Baird? 4 A That is it. 5 Qi Did you have an opportunity prior to your testimony to 6 review either a summary of Mr. Baird's deposition in 7 this case or the deposition itself that he had given 8 some time ago that we read in this case or during the 9 trial? _ 10 A. I believe I did read it, but it was some time ago. 11 Q. Mr. Papageorge, in one of your letters you -- one of these 12 letters that were introduced as an exhibit, but it made 13 reference to some regional sales offices. 14 A. Yes. 15 Qi And in 1970 can you tell us where the regional sales 16 offices were located? 17 A I'd have to look at the list myself. I don't remember. 18 Ql Was there one in Des Plaines, Illinois? 19 A Very likely, yes. 20 Qi Boston, Massachusetts? 21 A Very likely, yes. 22 Qi And New York? 23 A New York. 24 Qi St. Louis? 25 A St. Louis. Kn 0HOENIX. BLOG BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (9171 893-4321 5226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (SI 7) 782-47 ! 2 5406 WATER PCB-SD0000037440 TRI-ClTY COURT REPORTERS INC. I ft Wilmington, Delaware? 2 A. Yea. 3 ft And there was also a -- I don't know what you would call 4 it, something in Akron, Ohio. What was that? 5 A Well, I'm aware of the presence of Monsanto in the Akron 6 area, but I don't know -- I think it's a laboratory, but 7 I'm not certain. 8 ft And that was there in 1970, wasn't it? 9 A Yes. 10 ft Perhaps for lack of a better term, could it be called a 11 research center? 12 A Yes. 13 ft And Akron is pretty close to Canton, Ohio, is it not? 14 Twenty miles or so? 15 A Yes. 16 ft Twenty-five miles from Massillon, Ohio? 17 A I don't know the exact mileage, but it's fairly close, 18 ft In 1971 to -- you met with Dr. Hill, you said, in Ohio? 19 A Yes. 20 ft And visited two farms? 21 A Yes. 22 ft And one of the farms you mentioned, I believe you said 23 Humphreys. 24 A Yes. 25 ft And what was the other one? 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 13171 893-4321 S220 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (5 17)792-47 12 PAGE 54Q7 WATER PCB-SD0000037441 1 A. Schwarzwalder. Tm CITY COURT reporters INC 2 ft Do you remember which one you went to first? 3 A. I believe I went to the Schwarzwalder farm first. 4 Q, Were you alone when you went to the Schwarzwalder farm? 5 A. Yes. 6 ft And when you went to Humphreys' farm, were you alone? 7 A 1 was alone. 8 ft And when you met with the Humphreys, besides Humphreys' 9 attorney being present, was anyone else present? 10 A There was an individual present who I understand repre 11 sented some dairy farmers group or cooperative or some 12 sort of assocation of that type, 13 ft You had been in your new position for Monsanto for about 14 11 months? 15 A Yes. 16 ft At your meeting that day, did you meet both Mr. and Mrs. 17 Humphreys? 18 A Yes. 19 ft And do you recall Mrs. Humphreys? 20 A Yes. 21 ft Did you tell her anything that PCB's caused human health 22 effects? 23 A No, I couldn't, that'd be a lie. 24 ft So what you're saying is you didn't tell Mrs. Humphreys 25 that PCB's would cause any human health effects, is that 300 PHOeNIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4B70B 1317)893-4321 5228 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48803 IS I 7) 792-47 I 2 PAGE ^408 WATER PCB-SD0000037442 TUI ClTY COURT REPORTERS _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC__________________ 1 correct? 2 A. That is correct. 3 ft Did you tell Mrs. Humphreys whether PCB's caused any 4 animal health effects? 5 A. I couldn't. I had no information to say that at the 6 levels that we were talking about. 7 Q. When you met with Mrs. Humphreys and discussed this matter, 8 didyju consider her basically a -- what was your impres 9 sion of Mrs. Humphreys? 10 A. Well, she -- I was of the impression that she appeared 11 to be a good manager. She had college courses in chemistry 12 and understood analytical techniques. And she understood 13 more than the average person of what was meant by analysis 14 of milk and finding material in those. 15 Ql So she knew about PCB's and methods of analysis, is that 16 correct, in a certain sense? 17 A. She knew better than the average person but not as much 18 as the expert. . 19 Qi Did. you and she discuss any effects or chemical effects 20 of PCB''s that day while sitting in her living room at her 21 house? 22 A. The subject of health never came up in our discussions 23 with the Humphreys. 24 Qi So it was not mentioned either, you know, whether or not 25 it was discussed, was it mentioned gratuitously by either 300 PHOENIX. BLDG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (3 I 7) 893-4321 3226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 IS I 7) 792-47 I 2 PAGE 5 409 WATER PCB-SD0000037443 TH. JITY COURT REPORTERS _____________________________________________ _________________________________________________________ __ ____________ INC___________________ 1 of you? 2 A. No. 3 gi And, Mr. Papageorge, when you visited Michigan in 1975 4 to talk with Mr. Baird or at C & B Silo and Mr. Van Patten 5 at C & B Silo, did you meet with anyone else during that 6 trip? 7 A. Yes, but Mr. Van Patten was not with C & B Silo. 8 flL I know. He was with the Michigan Department of Agriculture. 9 A Yes, we did meet with others. 10 Qi And did you meet with a farmer who had a claim or complaint 11 about a PCB silo? 12 A He had a -- I guess I would call it a problem. The state 13 had warned him that his milk contained PCB's and that he 14 should take whatever steps were appropriate to keep his 15 milk from containing PCB's. 16 Qi Did he make the complaint or claim to you, to you as a 17 representative of Monsanto, that he was suffering or had 18 suffered some economic loss or damage? 19 A Yes, the loss or damage at the time was due to the fact 20 that he couldn't use his silos and was forced to construct 21 a different structure to contain feed for his cattle. 22 fli Did he mention anything about possible or probable milk 23 production loss? 24 A He mentioned that state authorities were implying that un 25 less he took the proper action he might be embargoed. 300 PHOENIX. SLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 IS I 71 893-4321 3226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 15 17)792-4712 pa,-c5 4 1. Q WATER PCB-SD0000037444 TRIClTY COURT REPORTERS INC. 1 gi Did he mention anything as to health effects, animal or 2 human? 3 A. No. 4 gt And what was your response to him about the complaints? 5 A. I don't, of course, recall the exact words, but the dis 6 cussion then became one of sharing information with him 7 as to our understanding of what was done elsewhere to make 8 his silos reuseable so he could get back in operation as 9 quickly as he could. 10 Qi Did you offer to assist him in any way? 11 A Well, I thought that by referring to contacting a Mr. 12 Boswell with Monteagle Company would be helpful. I felt 13 that sharing with my understandings from our discussion 14 with Mr. Van Patten would be helpful. 15 We mentioned that he might want to talk with Dr. Cook 16 at Michigan State University. The whole discussion was 17 one of here is what Monsanto understands about PCB silos 18 and milk, these are the people we've talked to. Dr. 19 Lynn Willett was another name. George Fries in Maryland 20 was another name we mentioned. These experts in the field 21 might be helpful. 22 Q. So what you are saying, the general tone of the meeting 23 then was to assist this man that had some complaints and 24 troubles, is that correct? 25 A That was our intent, yes. 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4B700 IS I 71 893-4321 3220 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (5 171 792-47 I 2 PAGE 5 411 WATER PCB-SD0000037445 TRi CITY COURT REPORTERS _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC._________ 1 yi And it was not about something that this man had complaint:? 2 and there was no response by you or the gentleman accomp 3 anying you that nothing could be done or that you would 4 do nothing, is that correct? 5 A. That is correct. 6 Ql And who was with you? Mr. MacFarland? 7 A There was a Mr. MacFarland with me, yes. 8 Qi And he is an attorney from Tennessee, is he not? 9 A Yes. 10 Q. And he has represented Monsanto over a period of time in 11 PCB matters? 12 A Yes. 13 Qi And is he the one that you referred to as taking care of 14 contacting the Tennessee people or the Tennesee government? 15 A Yes. 16 Qi And has Mr. MacFarland in fact participated in the pre 17 paration of the trial of this case? 18 A I don't know. 19 Qi There was some testimony that there was a meeting sometime 20 ago, not too long ago, at Metro Airport and one of the 21 witnesses I believe for Monsanto said that there was Mr. .22 Lon MacFarland present at that meeting at Metro Airport. 23 Are you aware of whether or not he was? 24 A I think I heard that in the room here. I don't know if 25 he was or not. 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 46706 15171 893-4321 5226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 15 17)792-47 12 PAGE 5 412 WATER PCB-SD0000037446 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC._________________ 1 Q. When was the last time you had any contact with him? 2 A. It's been several years. I don't recall anymore; two or 3 three years ago. 4 Q. When you visited the Humphreys' and Schwarzwalder' s farm 5 going back now to 1970, in November of 1970, did you stop 6 at your research center in Akron that day? 7 A. I would have no -- that laboratory is a rubber chemicals 3 research center. I had nothing to do with that product. 9 Ql Did you stop at Mr. Hess's office in Canton? 10 A. I had stopped at Mr. Hess's office several times. I don't 11 remember specifically whether I stopped at his office 12 during that particular trip. 13 Qi Would you explain to the Jury who Mr. Hess is, please? 14 A. Mr. Hess is an attorney located in Canton, Ohio who was 15 working for Monsanto's interest in PCB matters in that 16 matter. 17 Qi Mr. Hess in fact authored a paper l n PCB's and silos with 18 Mr. Willett, did he not? 19 A. Yes. 20 Qi And you have seen that paper? 21 A Yes. 22 Q. And that was authored in 1975, I believe? 23 A That is about right, yes. 24 Qi And have you read that paper? 25 A Yes. 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48708 19171893-4321 5228 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 15171792-4712 PAGE 5413 WATER PCB-SD0000037447 1 Q. When wore you cjiv^n a copy of it? I HI I I T COURT REPORTERS INC. 2 A. I don't remember the exact date. I think it's something 3 within two or three months after publication I was sent 4 a copy. 5 Q. So this is information provided by Dr. Willett who had at 6 that time been -- you had been in consultation with on 7 a few times? 8 A. Yes. 9 Ql And to whom you had provided some gift of grant money at 10 that time? 11 A. Yes. 12 Ql And by Mr. Hess who is, in fact, an attorney who worked 13 for Monsanto on occasion? 14 A Yes. 15 Ql And what was Mr. Hess's function in writing that document, 16 do you know? 17 A I don't know. 18 Ql Mr. Papageorge, I'm going to show you a document marked 19 as Plaintiffs' Proposed Exhibit No. 158 and ask if you can 20 identify that. You are probably going to have to look 21 through it because I think it's a number of documents 22 stapled together. 23 A This exhibit appears to be a collection of operating 24 instructions used by the two Monsanto plants for the 25 production of Aroclors. 300 PHOeNIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (517)893-4321 5226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 117)792-4712 PAGE 5 414 WATER PCB-SD0000037448 thi city COURT REPORTERS ______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC. 1 ft Those would be Anniston and the Kruramr.i oh which would be 2 Sauget? 3 A Correct. 4 ft Mr. Papageorge, I'm going to go back to one point I 5 covered before, but just to clarify, and then we'll come 6 back to this exhibit, if we might. 7 When you met, and I'm sorry for jumping around, but 8 as you are aware, we did in the deposition, too, we're 9 talking a number of years. - 10 When you met in 1975 with this farmer that we're talk 11 ing about, when you came to Michigan to see Mr. Van Patten 12 at the Department of Agriculture, and you also saw on 13 that visit Mr. Baird of C & B Silo Company, did you see 14 see more than one farmer or did you only see one? 15 A I only saw Mr. -- the one farmer. 16 ft Did you see at any other time anybody else in Michigan 17 to sit down and talk as you did that time? 18 A. Well, Mr. Cubitt was there. 19 ft But no other time did you meet anyone else, is that 20 correct? Say, two years later, did you come back and 21 talk to another one? 22 A No. 23 ft I'm sorry, Mr. Papageorge, for changing the directions on 24 you. But this is the safety instruction manual, is 25 that correct? 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 1817)893-4321 ' 5236 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 1517)792 4712 PAGE 5 415 WATER PCB-SD0000037449 TRtCITY COURT REPORTERS ____________________________________________________________________._______________________________________________ INC. 1 A. No, this is the -- like I said earlier, a collection of 2 operating instructions. These tell the operator how -- 3 what to do to make Aroclors. 4 ft I would presume that you have seen those before? 5 A. Yes. 6 ft And those are, in fact, Monsanto's, are they not? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And what I did at the top is to tag some of those so you 9 wouldn't have to search for through the dates that are on 10 them. 11 There are some that apply to the years that you were, 12 in fact, in the plants and some in the years afterwards, 13 is that correct? 14 A That appears to be so, yes. 15 I would like to make a clarification. When I said 16 "those are operating," those are excerpts from operating 17 instructions. 18 ft I understand. 19 A They're not the complete set. 20 ft On the first one, Mr. Papageorge, if I can look over your 21 shoulder, this is for the Anniston Plant, is that right? 22 A Yes, for the Anniston Plant. 23 ft And what is the date of those instructions? 24 THE COURT: Are you offering that Exhibit? 25 MR. WOODWORTH: Yes, Your Honor. I'm sorry. 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 1317)893-4321 . S226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 1517)792-4712 PAGE 5416 WATER PCB-SD0000037450 tni city COURT REPORTERS __________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________ INC. 1 THE COURT: What is the number? 2 MR. WOODWORTH: The number is 158. I move for 3 its admission. 4 THE COURT: Any objection, Mr. Jungerheld? 5 MR. JUNGERHELD: None, Your Honor. 6 THE COURT: Mr. Davidson? 7 MR. DAVIDSON: None, Your Honor. 8 THE COURT: 158 will be admitted without ob 9 jection. Go ahead. 10 A The date is July, 1964. 11 ft And that has a stamp on it "confidential". Is that to 12 keep the information within the company? 13 A Yes. 14 ft And would you read, please, then, what we have -- first 15 of all, on the very first page we have a title: Operating 16 Instructions as to Aroclor. 17 Is that right? 18 A That is right. 19 ft And then subsequent to that we get into an area called 20 chlorine gas, is that correct? 21 A True. Hut it's under a broader heading. 22 ft Go ahead and tell us. 23 A The heading is this is the safety and housekeeping sec 24 tion of the operationg instructions. And the first item 25 referred to under that safety and housekeeping section is 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (317)893-4321 5226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (5 17)792-4712 PAGE ^ 4 17 WATER PCB-SD0000037451 THI C i T Y COURT REPORTERS INC. 1 the chlorine yas you referred to. 2 ft Now, Mr. Papagoorge, what was the chlorine gas used for? 3 A. That was used to provide the chlorine that is present in 4 the finished product. 5 Cl That is what you bubbled through the benzine biphenyl or 6 the biphenyl after it was made from benzine? 7 A. Correct. 8 ft And so you had chlorine gas on hand on the premises for 9 this process? 10 A Yes. 11 ft And how was it stored? Was it liquid under pressure or 12 how? Obviously it was gas because it says chlorine gas. 13 A In 1964 the chlorine was generated at another unit as a 14 gas and was transferred into the Aroclor unit and used 15 directly. 16 ft Chlorine gas itself is fairly toxic, is it not? 17 A Oh, yes. 18 ft And what, in fact, does it state for the very first causes 19 and action to prevent as to chlorine gas? What is the one 20 I have marked there? 21 A It reads: 22 "Chlorine gas is a very toxic, corrosive gas. Leaks 23 at high pressure can occur to liberate it." 24 ft We're still on chlorine gas. Does this next page refer 25 to chlorine gas yet? 3da PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (9171893-4321 5226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 1517)792-47 12 PAGE 5.418- WATER PCB-SD0000037452 THI CITY COURT REPORTERS _________________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC.__________________ 1 A. The next page skips from No. 1 Item chlorine gas to No. 5 Item, fires. It's another section of that safety and 2 3 housekeeping portion, 4 ft And the next page is back on chlorine gas? 5 A The next page appears to be a continuation of a reference to chlorine gas, so I don't know what preceded that, 6 7 ft Mr. Papageorge, I'm going to ask you to read, and this is under safety and housekeeping as to chlorine gas, and 3 9 as to biphenyls, the next topic under it. And if you'd 10 just read those three paragraphs, please. A The first paragraphs is under chlorine gas and reads: 11 "If you are caught without a gas mask and large 12 13 amounts of chlorine gas are liberated, hold your 14 breath and go crosswind until you are out of range 15 of the gas. Once out of the area, obtain an emergency 16 gas mask and return to the area and correct the 17 problem." 18 The second paragraph: 19 "A victim of chlorine gas fumes must be removed as 20 quickly as possible from the gaseous area. Place 21 patient on his back, with head and back elevated. Milk 22 may be used in mild cases as a relief from throat 23 irritation. If the patient has stopped breathing, 24 start artificial respiration imemediately." 25 Third paragaph 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48700 IS 17) 893-4321 3220 STATE ST. s GINAW. MICHIGAN 48003 IS 1 71 792-47 1 2 PAGE 5 4 Q WATER PCB-SD0000037453 TRI CITY COURT reporters INC. 1 Q. And if I might interrupt just for a moment. The third 2 paragraph now refers to biphenyls, is that correct? 3 A. Biphenyls. 4 Ql Biphenyls? 5 A. Correct. 6 Q, And that is the product that was made by the uniting of 7 the benzine rings? 8 A That is correct 9 Qi And what is the safety and housekeeping recommendation or 10 instruction regarding the biphenyl? 11 A It reads: 12 "Biphenyl is a flammable material which will burn. 13 Burning should not be done in the presence of biphenyl1 14 or biphenyl vapors. The melting point is 68.7 15 degrees centigrade, flash point of 106 degrees centi 16 grade. The fire point 124 degrees centigrade. And 17 the auto ignitiion temperature is 258 degrees centi 18 grade. Inhalation of biphenyl fumes is not recommended 19 since it can cause a drugged effect on the person." 20 Qi And the next, as we go down this list, we come to a Sub 21 paragraph H referring to crude Aroclors? 22 A Yes. 23 Qi And then if you would just read the last sentence under 24 crude Aroclors under H on Page 6, please. 25 A The last sentence reads: 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4B706 IS 17) 893-4321 3226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 4B603 IS 171 792-47 I 2 PAGE 5 4 2 0 WATER PCB-SD0000037454 TRI CITY COURT REPORTERS ______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________INC.__________________ 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And that is one of the biphenyls, is it not? It has 3 one chlorine ring? 4 A. That is correct. 5 Qt What is the other hazard under that? 6A "This material can cause dermatitis, systemic poison 7 ing from the fumes, and yellow atrophy of the liver. 8 There are skin, mucous membranes and eye hazards 9 encountered in handling this material." 10 Q. Can you tell us what is meant or what you understand is 11 meant by the term "yellow atrophy of the liver"? 12 A I have an impression that it means the liver is damaged and 13 has abnormal appearance as a result. 14 Q. And the paragraph under storage and handling with the 15 monochlorobiphenyl. 16 A "Protect the skin, lungs and eyes by wearing approved 17 protective clothing, respirator and goggles. People 18 who handle this material at elevated temperatures 19 should have medical supervision and the air should be 20 sampled to ensure compliance with MAC." 21 Ql What is MAC? 22 A I don't recall at the moment. I just don't remember. 23 "There are no special storage restrictions under 24 normal conditions except for in a ventilated area." 25 Ql Thank you. Now we move to another set of operating 300 PHOENIX. OLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (917) 693-4321 5226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 1517) 792 47 1 2 PAGE 5421 WATER PCB-SD0000037455 TRI CITY COURT REPORTERS ________________________________ |_________________________________________________________________________________ INC. 1 "Prior to air blowing, the material has HCl fumes 2 entrained in it which are irritating to the skin or 3 mucous membranes." 4 ft Now, we finished that one for 1964, July, 1964, is that 5 correct? 6 A. That is all I can see at the moment. 7 ft Then we go on to another set and this is W.J. Krummrich 8 operations manual. I imagine that is for the Krummrich 9 Plant? 10 A. That is correct. 11 ft And it's kind of hard to read, but if you could bend arounc. 12 just the first paragraph of what is there on the first 13 paragraph, please? 14 A It seems like the last piece of a sentence which I can 15 only read: Comma, but. There is an explosion hazard if 16 chlorine is mixed with a strong reducing agent such as 17 hydrogen or hydrogen carbides at high temperature. 18 ft And the next paragraph there, perhaps that is the one I 19 had marked. 20 A Under other hazards. 21 "This material causes eye, skin and mucous membrane 22 irritation." 23 ft Thank you. 24 A It doesn't say what that material is, though. 25 ft What is this word? Is that monochlorobiphenyl? 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 <917)893-4321 S226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (517)792-47)2 PAGE 5422 WATER PCB-SD0000037456 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS _________________________________________________ _____ _______________ INC.__________________ 1 instructions and those are dated October, 1974, is that 2 right? 3 A. That is right. -i ft And Department 246 is still operated -- would be the 5 person who runs the distiller for Aroclors? 6 A Yes. 7 ft Is that correct? 8 A Yes. 9 ft And Department 246, where is that located? 10 A This is at the W.J. Krummrich Plant at Sauget, Illinois, 11 ft If you'd read just the introductory paragraph on this unde.: 12 what is called Aroclors. 13 A Yes. 14 "Aroclors as manufactured in Department 246 are non 15 flammable liquids which may vary greatly in viscosity 16 at room temperature. Contact with skin should be 17 avoided. In case of spills on the body, wash the 18 . affected area with soap and water. Inhalation of 19 Aroclor and Montar fumes should be avoided as they are 20 highly toxic. Protect the skin, lungs, and eyes by 21 wearing protective clothing, respirator and goggles. 22 If spilled on clothing, change to clean clothes." 23 ft The next is another set of instructions that is 246, 24 again, out of the Krummrich manual, is that correct? 25 A It looks like 246 and an additional marking of some kind. 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY city. MICHIGAN 4B706 (5 I 7) 093*432 1 3226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48B03 (517)792-4712 PAGE 5423____ WATER PCB-SD0000037457 1 It's hard to road. TRl CITY COURT REPORTERS INC 2 ft Okay. And this is dated March, 1974, correct? 3 A That is correct. 4 ft And would you read that paragraph, what the operating in 5 structions are for? 6A "These operating instructions are the property of 7 Monsanto Industrial Chemical Company and the re 8 cipient is responsible for its safekeeping. It con 9 tains confidential information of Monsanto Industrial 10 Chemicals Company which must not be reproduced, 11 revealed to unauthorized persons or sent outside the 12 company without proper authorization. Either retain 13 in the Operating Department or return to the standard 14 Documents Department." 15 Ql Thank you. This is again Krummrich Plant operating 16 instructions. Department 246 and distillary operating, 17 the next group? 18 A That's right. 19 ft I was going to ask you to read this paragraph, but it 20 looks like one that you just read a short time ago, is 21 it not, as to Aroclors? In fact, the one you just read 22 a short two paragraphs go. 23 A Yes, it appears to be so. 24 ft This again for the Krummrich Plant operating instructions, 25 Department 246? 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48708 1917)893-4321 5228 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48803 1^17)792-47 12 paitie 5424 WATER PCB-SD0000037458 A. Yes. 1 Q. And the date of this is June, 1976? 2 3 A. Yes. TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS INC 4 Q. And the next sot is from Krummrich opertating instructions. 5 Department 246, and what is this for? 6 A It's an abbreviation. PREM, period; OP, period. That is 7 premium operator. That is the top work assignment in 8 that department. 9 Qi And the next is standard manufacturing process Aroclors, 10 Department 246, and that is dated 1972. 11 A There is a written notation on it. That says 1972. 12 Q. It also says before that, "Do not loan". 13 Is that something that typically would have been 14 written on it? 15 A I don't know that it's typical, but it's not surprising. 16 Q. On the last page of this, Mr. Papageorge, under Paragarph 17 G, there is Aroclors, a reference to that. And it says 18 in parenthesis: See hygienic guide series on chloro- 19 diphenyls. 20 Right. 21 A 22 Ql Yes. Looking earlier in this particular process, it will state 23 something -- for example, it says chlorine has as a des 24 cription and formula and Constance, toxic hazards rating, 25 toxicology information. It has the same on hydrochloride 300 PHOENIX. BLDG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4870B 13 17)893-4321 322S STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 4SB03 1317)792-4712 PAGE --5.4-25 WATER PCB-SD0000037459 1 off gas. 2 A. Yes TRI CITY COURT REPORTERS ____________________INC.______________ 3 Ql And it has the same previous on biphenyls. But when we 4 get to Aroclors, it says to refer to the hygienic guide 5 series. 6 What is the hygienic guide series? 7 A. That was a publication that addressed the safety and 8 industrial hygiene of -- in this case, chlorodiphenyls. 9 Qi And would that then be incorporated into the manual, so 10 to say? . 11 A Yes. A copy was attached or inserted into the manual. 12 Qi And who published that or where did it come from? 13 A I don't recall the exact name of the group, but this was 14 a group of professional industrial hygienists that put 15 this information together for many products. 16 Qi The next set looks almost like a duplicate of the previous 17 set. Again we have a standard manufacturing process 18 Aroclors, Department 256. Then this handwriting: Do not 19 loan, 1972. 20 A That is what it says. 21 Qi And when we got to the last page, again, for the reference 22 on Aroclors, it says: See the hygienic guide series on 23 chlorodiphenyls. 24 A Yes. 25 Qi That would be the same one we talked about? 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 ISI7I 693-4321 5226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 46603 (3171792-47 12 PAGE 54?fi WATER PCB-SD0000037460 TRi city COURT REPORTERS ____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC. L A. That is correct. 2 ft Now, we have another one, another publication or set of 3 instructions, process description for the manufacture of 4 Aroclors in Department 246, is that correct? 5 A. That is correct. , 6 ft And I took that '66 there to mean 1966. Would that be 7 reasonable? In fact, I'm sorry -- 8 A. It seems to be reasonable, yes. 9 ft It has a date written in, 1966, does it not? 10 A. Yes. 11 Qi And did you know these gentlemen here, by the way, that 12 signed this, who approved it? 13 A. Yes. ' 14 ft Mr. Harris and the other gentleman? 15 A Mr. Heisler, yes; Mr. Gibbs and Mr. Carter, yes. 16 ft And this has the same caveat, so to say, this process is 17 the property of Monsanto Company? 18 A That is a standard statement that appears on all of 19 Monsanto's instructions. 20 ft Now, this manufacturing process from 1966, if I can direct 21 your attention to the Aroclor on Page 39. On Page 40 22 going to Aroclor and would you please read what the other 23 hazards are in relation to Aroclors. 24 A It reads on other hazards: 25 "This material can cause dermatitis, systemic 300 PHOENIX. BLDG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (917)893-4321 5226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (5 17)792-47 12 PAGE 5 4 77 WATER PCB-SD0000037461 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS ____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC 1. poisoning from the fumes, and yellow atrophy of the 2 liver. There are skin mucous membranes and eye 3 hazards encountered in handling this material." 4 Ql And what is systemic poisoning? 5 A I have an understanding. I don't know if it's accurate. 6 But this is a reaction by the body to a foreign material 7 and it's in the system, in the body system. 8 Qi It's a poisoning to the body, in other words? 9 A That is a way to look at" it, yes. 10 Qi And this looks like a repeat of the previous one? 11 A Yes. 12 Qi I put a question mark on that because it says old SMP 13 Aroclors. What would SMP -- 14 A Standard Manufacturing Process. 15 Qi There is a first sentence, I think, to that other para 16 graph that you couldn't read before. 17 A I see. 18 Qi Would you read it, please? Just that first paragraph. 19 A It says: 20 "Diphenyl and Aroclor are toxic materials. To pre 21 vent toxicity," end of statement. 22 Qi And then go to the next page. 23 A "Clean change of clothes is furnished daily to each 24 employee and time is allotted at the end of each shift 25 for bathing. In addition, one should wash his hands 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (3171893-4321 3226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 46603 (3171 792-4712 PAGE 5 4 9 fl WATER PCB-SD0000037462 TRI city COURT REPORTERS INC. 1 "and face before eating." 2 But I don't know that the two are necessarily related. 3 Q. Would the reason for recommending to the employees to 4 wash their hands and face before eating is so they wouldn' : 5 ingest this material? 6 A. Yes. This is a fairly common statement for chemical manu 7 facturers. 8 Ql To protect the health and safety of your workers? 9 A. That is right. 10 Cl Would you read this paragraph, please, under the hazards 11 in ~ the one below it. 12 A. 13 "There are many accidents that can occur that may be classed as safety and health hazards. These accidents 14 might result from such things as broken process lines 15 gas leaks, acid leaks, steam burns, et cetera. The 16 following safety equipment is provided to each 17 employees One pair rubber overalls, goggles, one pair 18 spectacles, one pair rubber shoes, one pair rubber 19 covered gloves, one pair canvas gloves, and one fume 20 respirator; and for the department's use: One gas 21 mask, one clean change of clothes, four safety 22 showers and one stretcher." 23 fli Thank you. And this, again, this appears to be a duplicate 24 of the prior one on SMP Aroclors? 25 A. It appears to be the same._____________________________________________________________ 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 1917) 893-4321 5226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 5 I 7) 792-4712 pagp 5 429 WATER PCB-SD0000037463 _______________________________________________________________________________________ TRI CITY COURT REPORTERS INC. 1 Q. We have the same sentence at the beginning? 2 A. Right. 3 ft And would you read just from the very last page on the 4 hazards paragraph, just the first paragraph of the 5 hazards. 6A "The fumes from Aroclor 1254 are quite noxious and are 7 when inhaled, excessively dangerous and hazardous. 8 When handling this material in relatively closed areas 9 ample ventilation, parenthesis, hoods in extreme cases 10 close parenthesis, should be provided for removal of 11 the fumes from the working area. The fumes attack 12 the mucous membrane of the nasal passages and 13 irritation of the membranes and slight lung congestion 14 might result from excessive inhalation of the fumes." 15 THE COURT: In light of the hour, members of 16 the Jury, we'll take a 10 minute recess. If you will 17 retire to the Jury Room we will reconvene at 3:10. 18 (Whereupon a recess was taken.) 19 ft (By Mr. Woodworth, continuing:) Mr. Papageorge, on 20 January 1st, 1970, when you took your position as 21 manager, environmental control, was it? 22 A Yes. 23 ft Of Monsanto? 24 A Yes. 25 ft How many plants did Monsanto have that were manufacturing 300 PHOENtX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 1317)893-4321 3228 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48803 1317)792-4712 PAGE____ 54 3 0 WATER PCB-SD0000037464 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC 1 PCB's? 2 A. Two in the United States, one in the United Kingdom, and 3 an interest in a Japanese unit. 4 Q. The one in the United Kingdom, which I referred to as 5 Great Britain, was in Wales? 6 A. That is correct. 7 Ql What's the interest that Monsanto owned in the Japanese 8 unit? 9 A. To my understanding it was 49 percent. 10 Qi And was that in Toyko? 11 A I don't believe it was in Toyko, no. 12 Qi Was it in -- what was the name of the company? Was it 13 Mitshubishi? 14 A It's Mitshubishi Monsanto. 15 Ql And who made the PCB's that were involved in the Yusho 16 incident? 17 A I believe it was made by another Japanese company and I'm 18 -- I have the understanding it's the Kanafugi Company. 19 Qi And how long did Monsanto have an interest in this 49 20 percent interest in the Japanese manufacture? 21 A Of which product now? 22 Qi PCB' s. 23 A PCB's. The unit, as I recall, started out in 1969 and 24 it was shut down in -- I'm not certain of the date, 25 somewhere along 1972 or '73. 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4S708 1917)893-4321 5226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (5 17)792-47 12 PAGE 54 31 WATER PCB-SD0000037465 TRt CITY COURT REPORTERS INC. 1 Q. In fact, the manufacture of PCB1 a were discontinued in 2 Japan around that time, were they not? 3 A. Yes. 4 Ql What was the trademark name that the Japanese product in 5 which Monsanto was concerned were marketed under? 6 A. Aroclors. 7 Qi And in Great Britain, in Wales, what years did they manu a facture PCB's there? 9 A. I'm not certain of the original production. The best of 10 my recollection it was after World War II and and con 11 tinued until, again I'm guessing, a little bit, 1973 or 12 thereabouts. 13 Qi And what was the trademark's name there? Aroclors? 14 A Aroclors, yes. 15 Qi Prior to January 1st, 1970, when you assumed your new 16 position, had you visited either of these plants? 17 A Mo. 18 ft And after 1970 you did at least visit the one in Wales -- 19 A That is correct. 20 Qi On a few occasions. Did you visit the one in Japan? 21 A No. 22 Q. When you were in your new position with Monsanto after 23 1-1-70, when you -- or we refer to PCB's, would it take 24 into consideration PCB's from those other two plants, 25 from Japan and Wales, or were you strictly concerned with 300 PHOENIX. SLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4870B (9171893-4321 9226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (3 17)792-4712 PAGE ^437_____ WATER PCB-SD0000037466 TRICITY COURT REPORTERS ______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC._____________ 1 .- the environmental control with the PCB' s within the United 2 States? 3 A. The responsibility assigned to me was worldwide for 4 Monsanto's PCB products. 5 ft While I'm thinking of it, Mr. Papageorge, did you have 6 an opportunity to reveiw a transcript or a summary of the 7 testimony of Mr. Egan who testified in this case? 8 A. I reviewed a summary, yes. 9 ft And did you agree with what he testified to? 10 MR. JUNGERHELD: Well, Your Honor, I wonder 11 if we could be a little more specific on that. He 12 testified for quite awhile. 13 THE COURT: Can you focus a little more on 14 what you are referring to? 15 ft Mr. Egan specifically -- I don't recall, and I don't have 16 my notes here with me, Mr. Papageorge, but I don't recall 17 Mr. Egan ever saying that he had any contact with you. 18 But you are testifying that you did, in fact, have some 19 contact with Mr. Egan? 20 A. Yes. I remember vividly talking to the man on the tele 21 phone, yes. 22 ft And Mr. Egan testified that Jacob Hess called him up 23 prior to his coming to Court and his interpretation was 24 that Mr. Hess didn't want him to be coming here to testify 25 Wore you aware of Mr. Hess's phone call prior to his 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 19171893-4321 9226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 1917)792-4712 PAGE 5 4 3 3 WATER PCB-SD0000037467 tri city COURT REPORTERS ____________________________________________________________________________________________ _________________________ INC._________________ 1 appearing or subsequent? 2 A. I know nothing of that. 3 ft Do you know how it came to be you who was chosen to be 4 the environmental control officer or person for 5 Monsanto? 6 A. All I can say to that is I was interviewed for the opening 7 and I was selected for the opening. I do not know how the 8 individuals who made the decision arrived at it. 9 ft And at this point you changed from a person who had pretty 10 well worked inside the plants and been plant manager, 11 department manager, superintendent, those kinds of 12 things, from being inside the organization to being a 13 person who went outside the organization, is that correct? 14 A Yes. 15 ft And, in fact, your new duties, under your duties from 16 January 1, 1970, would involve a substantial amount of 17 contact with the public, with the scientific community, 18 with university people, and with the government, would it 19 not? 20 A Yes, it did. 21 ft And you said at one point during the '70's it seemed like 22 like you were going to Washington almost weekly? 23 A Yes. 24 ft And you traveled through Europe on behalf of Monsanto? 25 A Yes. 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4B70B 1317) 893*4321 5228 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 4B603 (5171792-4712 ' PAGE 54 34 WATER PCB-SD0000037468 TRi City COURT REPORTERS _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC._________________ 1 ft And that you met with ministers -- or ministeries from 2 the United Kingdom? 3 A Yes. 4 ft And when we got down to environmenal issues, during the 5 1970's you were the person at Monsanto that people would 6 ultimately come into contact with if they went to the 7 top of environmental issues, of PCB'`s? 8 A PCB's, yes. 9 ft So would it be fair to say, Mr. Papageorge, that you were 10 the face or the personna, so to say, that Monsanto put 11 forward regarding your PCB's for the corporation? . 12 A I don't know the exact meaning of the word personna, but 13 I did represent Monsanto in matters relating to PCB's. 14 ft And that you were interviewed quite a bit, I take it, by 15 newspapers, magazines, publishers? 16 A 1 had some of that, yes. 17 ft And do you remember a quote that you might have given in 18 1977 to Newsday magazine regarding PC3's as to the 19 performance and manufacture of PCB's? 20 A I don't remember, no. 21 ft Just one paragraph from this book here. Start right there 22 and read to yourself that paragraph. 23 MR. JUNGERHELD: Your Honor, could we have an 24 identification of what it is? 25 THE COURT: Would you identify the book? 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48708 (317)893-4321 S228 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (5 17)792-47)2 PAGE 5 4 35 WATER PCB-SD0000037469 TRI CITY COURT REPORTERS ___________________________________________INC___________________ 1 MR. WOODWORTH: If Counsel desires me to, 2 I just -- 3 THE COURT: Yes, he'd like to know what you 4 are reading. 5 MR. WOODWORTH: The book's name is Who Is 6 Poisoning America. 7 A I've read the paragraph you've indicated. 8 Q. Do you recollect making that statement? 9 A The statement is one I would have made. I don't recall 10 exactly when and where I made it. 11 Ql But you do recall the statement and it's general context? 12 A Yes. 13 Ql And that is all I wanted to do is refresh you recollec 14 tion as to that, Mr. Papageorge, because in this state 15 ment you said that in terms of performance, the PCB's 16 were as perfect an industrial chemical as could be, or 17 something along those lines, did you not? 18 A Close to that, yes. 19 Qi And in that article they went on to quote you along the 20 lines of saying that it didn't burn, that it doesn't break 21 down. 22 Is that correct? 23 A That is right. 24 Q. And would you agree with that yet today? 25 A Well, we found since then that it will burn under certain 300 PHOENIX. SLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (31 7) 893*4321 S326 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (5 17)792-47 12 PAGE 5436 WATER PCB-SD0000037470 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS ________________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC. 1 conditions. 2 ft Extremely high temperatures. 3 A. And some of them do break down under certain conditions, 4 ft And that it does not react with other materials? 5 A I'm quoted as saying that, yes. 6 ft You were, within that article, Mr. Papageorge, referred 7 to as a PCB expert from Monsanto. 8 A That is what it says here. 9 ft And is that a fair characterization at that time? 10 A I'm a poor one to make that assessment. This apparently 11 is the author's term. It's his impression, 12 ft If you want to look at the footnote, too -- oh, I can 13 tell you the footnote is July 20, 1977, Newsday Magazine. 14 A I don't see any footnote. 15 ft Here, I'll refer you to it. Right there. Footnote 10, 16 July 20, 1977. 17 A It does say that. I just don't remember that, 18 ft And then it says Monsanto was the sole producer in the 19 United States until the chemical was outlawed. 20 MR. JUNGERHELD: Well, now, wait a minute. 21 Your Honor, this is hearsay information. 22 THE COURT: I will sustain the objection, Mr. 23 Woodworth. 24 MR. WOODWORTH: I'm asking him if that is 25 correct. 300 PHOENIX. BLDG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 40706 1917) 893*4321 5226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (9 17)792 47 12 PAGE 5 4 77 WATER PCB-SD0000037471 TRI-ClTY COURT REPORTERS INC. 1 THU COURT: If that is his statement? 2 MR. WOODWORTH: Yes. 3 THE COURT: If he made that statement? 4 MR. WOODWORTH: No, I'm asking him if the 5 statement is correct. I will rephrase it. 6 THE COURT: You are implying the statements 7 from the book. I will sustain the objection. 8 Ql Was Monsanto the sole producer of PCB's in the United 9 States until it was outlawed? 10 A. Not in my understanding, no. 11 Qt Mr. Papageorger, prior to 1970 did you ever testify on 12 behalf of Monsanto in any type of proceeding, be it 13 civil or administrative? 14 A. I don't recall of any such testimony, no. 13 ft However, since January 1, 1970, you have testified as a 16 substantial amount of time -- well, I guess the word sub 17 stantial is not definitive. 18 You have testified a number of times? 19 A. Yes. 20 Qi And you testified in both the civil matters and before 21 administrative bodies or before administrative hearings? 22 A. Yes. 23 ft Can you tell us, Mr. Papageorge, from 1970 to today, 24 approximately how many times have you testified before 25 government committees, subcommittees, investigative groups 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 IS 1 7) 893-432 I 5226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (517)792-4712 PAGE --^ ^ ^ WATER PCB-SD0000037472 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC._________________ 1 and things of that typo, administrative type hearings or 2 investigations or trials? 3 A I have never kept a record. My best guess would be a 4 dozen times. 5 ft And would all of them have been generally in regard to PCB's 6 or did you go into other areas? 7 A. They were generally PCB's. 8 ft And from 1970 to date about how many times have you testi 9 fied in a court such as this setting, in a civil matter? 10 A Three including this one. 11 ft And from 1970 to date, how many times have you testified 12 by deposition? 13 A About half a dozen times. 14 ft These would be any type of testimony, is that correct? 15 I'm not confining my question just to PCB's, but in any 16 sense, any type of such case? 17 A Yes. 18 ft What are the trials that you have testified in? 19 A I dort't quite know how to describe them. This was a trial 20 in New Hampshire relating to PCB's and mink. 21 ft And when was that testimony? 22 A 1974. 23 ft And what were the claims generally regarding the PCB -- 24. MR. JUNGERHELD: Wait a minute. Your Honor, 25 I'm going to object to this. I don't see any relevancy to 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (617)893-4321 5226 STATE ST. SAolNAW. MICHIGAN 48603 1317)792-4712 page 5 4 39_____ WATER PCB-SD0000037473 TRi City COURT REPORTERS --INC. 1 this case here. Mink has got nothing to do with dairy 2 animals. Claims made have -- it is strictly hearsay as 3 to this witness. 4 And so for a variety of gounds, relevancy and hearsay, 5 we would object to going into some claims relating to 6 mink. 7 MR. WOODWORTH: Your Honor, I think it's 8 very relevant. This is cross-examination. This man is 9 an employee of Monsanto Chemical Company. He was during 10 the 1970's. That he was their PCB official and as such 11 he had numerous contact with both other industry, with 12 scientists, and a number of areas. And I would like to 13 know the areas in which he has been involved with PCB's 14 other than this particular case. 15 I think we've established some other areas, but I woulc 16 like to know what other areas because there is testimony in 17 this trial already as to effects of PCB's on mink by Dr. 18 Hansen and other scientists. That isn't exactly the pur 19 pose of the testimony ~ 20 THE COURT: What is the purpose? 21 MR. WOODWORTH: The purpose of it is just to 22 understand the general nature of claims back in 1974 that 23 were being asserted, notice and knowledge. 24 THE COURT: I'll allow it. 25 d What generally were the types of claims made in that case, 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 40700 IS I 71 893-4321 3220 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48003 IS I 7) 792-47 I 2 PAGE 5 4 4 Q____ WATER PCB-SD0000037474 1 Mr. Papagoorgu? THI CITY COURT REPORTERS INC. 2 A. The claims as I understood them, was that the presence of 3 PCB's in the duck entrails fed to mink led to reproduction 4 problems and poor quality pelts in several mink ranches in 5 the New Hampshire area. 6 ft Is this the Bethlehem Mink case as we referred to or can 7 I call it that? 8 A. That was the common terminology used at that time, yes. 9 ft And so these mink ate some feed or product containing 10 PCB and it affected them? 11 A It was not really a feed, it was the intestines and waste 12 parts of ducks that were frozen and shipped into New 13 Hampshire and fed to the animals. 14 ft They use that duck entrails for mink feed? 15 A As part of it. It was part of their feed. 16 ft And were there mink deaths? 17 MR. JUNGERHELD: Well, Your Honor, this is 18 asking this witness if he knows that. Number one, there 19 is no testimony that he knows anything about those mink. 20 Number two, it would be hearsay as to him unless he knows 21 that somehow firsthand. 22 THE COURT: Are you talking about the claims? 23 MR. WOODWORTH: Yes, I will refer my question 24 to that 25 THE COURT: He's already answered part of that 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48708 IS I 71 893-4321 5228 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 15 17) 792*47)2 page 5441 WATER PCB-SD0000037475 TRi CiTY COURT REPORTERS INC. 1 but go ahead. 2 ft Were there any claims as to reproductive problems and/or 3 mink deaths in that case? 4 A. I don't remember mink deaths. i do remember poor quality 5 pelts and lack of reproduction. 6 ft 7 You had, in fact, encountered problems with mink before this, had you not? 8 A. 9 ft I had ~ no. Did you ever visit Dr. Ringer at Michigan State University 10 regarding his mink studies? 11 A. Yes. 12 ft And when was that that you visited him? 13 A. My memory fails me a bit, but in the '71, '72, '73 era. 14 15 16 ft 17 18 A 19 20 21 And this had to relate to PCB's in fish which in turn were fed to mink, yes. And what was the purpose of your visit? How did you happen to see Dr. Ringer? I was in the area talking with others about PCB. I don't remember the exact situation. But I recall having a dialogue with Dr. Ringer, supplying him with standards and again the literature and analytical methodology. And 22 since I was in the area, I made arrangements to meet 23 with Dr. Ringer. 24 As I remember, it was through Dr. Cook. I'm not 25 positive. And, as I remember, we had lunch in the faculty 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (3171 893-4321 3228 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48803 (3171792-4712 PAGE 5 44 2 WATER PCB-SD0000037476 im-'.ii r COURT REPORTERS ___________________________________________________________ ________________ _________________________ INC._____________ 1 dining room and talked about PCB'a and his studies. 2 Qi And was he investigating or did he ask you did you have 3 information or did you investigate any claims about mink 4 reproduction problems or mink losses as a result of 5 eating PCB fish? 6A At that time it was still difficult to determine whether 7 it was the DDT or the PCB or the combination of the two 8 that might be causing the effects that were noted. So 9 the study was ongoing and I was attempting to try to keep 10 abreast of new developments. 11 Ql And the new developments you attempted to keep abreast of, 12 13 14 15 A did that ultimately show that there were some mink problems, reproduction, in the midwest as a result of mink being fed Great Lakes PCB' contaminated fish? Some months later, maybe years later, there was a report 16 17 Ql 18 A 19 Qi published by Dr. Ringer, yes. Do you recall the year of that report? Not absolutely. It seems to me about 1974. What was the year of the claim made in the event of the 20 Bethlehem Mink case? 21 A I don't know that. 22 Qi The trial, I understand, if I'm correct, Mr. papageorge, 23 was 1974, though, that you testified at? 24 A Yes. 25 Qi Did you give a deposition in that case? 300 PHOENIX. BLOG BAY city. MICHIGAN 48706 1317)893-4321 3228 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 <5171792-4712 PAGE___ 54 4 3____ WATER PCB-SD0000037477 ____________________________________________ THl CITY COURT REPORTERS ____________________________________________________________________ INC._______________ 1 A. Yes. 2 ft And when was your deposition, approximately? 3 A. About a year before that. Sometime before that. My 4 memory isn't that good. 5 ft So may we understand that you were aware of the mink 6 claims in the matter of the Bethlehem Mink case, 7 in at least 1973 when you gave your deposition? 8 A. Yes. 9 ft What other trials have you testified in?* I think you said 10 three, including this one? tl A. Yes. One more. 12 ft What was the other? 13 A. This is a trial in Tennessee regarding the spillage of 14 the transformer liquid from a transformer being delivered 15 ft That was a G.E. transformer. General Electric? 16 A. It was a General Electric transformer. 17 ft It was leaking fluid and the highway patrol pulled the 18 driver over and the driver -- in other words, it 19 stopped leaking and it opened up -- 20 A. That is fairly close. There was a leakage and the highway 21 patrolman ordered the truck to move over to the shoulder. 22 The driver contacted his home office dispatcher and asked 23 for instructions. And he was instructed to drain the unit 24 And he opened the valve and dumped the liquid on the 25 shoulder of the road. 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (9 I 7) 893-4321 5226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (5171 792-47 1 2 PAGE 5 4 4 4 WATER PCB-SD0000037478 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS ______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC._______________ 1. And, as I remember ths allegations, were that the 2 presence of this PC3 created some health problems in the 3 neighboring farmers, to the neighboring farmers and their 4 families. And there was another family alleged that as 5 they drove along the road in the opposite direction, 6 through the open car windows they were sprayed with this 7 material as they passed the moving truck with its load, 8 and they, too, suffered some health problems. 9 ft Mr. Papageorge, what year was this? 10 A. About 197S. 11 ft Do you know when the event occurred? 12 A. I don't remember anymore. 13 ft Do you recall whether or not there ware any claims for -- 14 let me rephrase that. 15 Besides for humans, what types of animals were claims 16 made for in that case? 17 A. I don't remember any animals involved. 18 ft Here there not claims for effects to cov/s in that case at 19 the farms near the area where this material was dumped? 20 There could have been, but I just -- I don't associate that 21 case with cows. But it's been a while. I don't remember. 22 ft Any other case you testified in besides two and the 23 present case. 24 A. That's all. 25 ft Now, depositions, Mr. Papageorge. You said you gave a 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (8 I 7) 893-4321 5228 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 \3 I 7) 792-47 1 2 PAGE ^ 4 4 5 WATER PCB-SD0000037479 TRICITY COURT REPORTERS _______________________________________ INC.________________ 1 deposition in the Bethlehem Mink case. Did you give 2 one in this Tennessee case? 3 A. Yes. 4 ft And you gave a deposition in the present case back in 5 Janaury, 1980. 6 A Yes. 7 ft And what other cases have you given depositions in? S A The Holly Farms case in North Carolina. There was a case 9 involving a dental laboratory in Detroit. If my memory 10 serves me right, it was referred to as something like 11 the Parsons and Howell case or something like that. 12 ft You didn't mention that particular case, the Parsons and 13 Howell case, at the time we took your deposition, did 14 you? 15 A I don't remember. But that was not -- it depends on the 16 question you might have asked. This, in my mind, was not 17 a PCB case. 18 ft Parsons and Howell did deal with Aroclors? 19 A Yes. 20 ft It was a higher number Aroclor? 21 A It was 4465. 22 ft 4465? 23 A Yes. 24 ft And there was testimony within your deposition in the 25 Parsons and Howell case, a fair amount of testimony in 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4B706 IS 17) 893-4321 5226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 46603 IS 17) 792-47 1 2 PAGE 54 46- WATER PCB-SD0000037480 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS ___________________ ___________________ _______________ _____________ ^___ ____________________________________________________INC._________ 1 . questions and answers regarding PCB1s, in fact, was there 2 not? 3 A. There was some. Not as lengthy as others. 4 Cl No, I wouldn't imagine it would be as lengthy as this one. 5 Did that slip your mind or did you -- well, I probably 6 should find the question first for you, Mr. Papageorge, 7 before I ask anything further. And I can do that later. 8 What other cases would you have given depositions 9 in? 10 A. I gave a deposition in a matter involving a transformer 11 leak in a packing house in Montana. 12 ft Is that referred to by the name of Pierce? 13 A. Pierce Packing Company, yes. I can't recall any others 14 at the moment. 15 ft Did you give a deposition in the early 1970's in Canton, 16 Ohio, between 1970 and 1973? 17 A. No, no. 18 ft Do you know if you ever testified in any other deposition 19 or testimony that you did in fact give a deposition in 20 Canton, Ohio at that time? 21 A. I did and I was in error. I was confusing my depositions. 22 ft Did you testify in the Campbell Soup case? 23 A. No, I'm not aware there was ever such a case. 24 ft I'm talking about the one in -- I believe we had some 25 testimony regarding it in your deposition, perhaps. 300 PHOENIX. SLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48700 1317)893-4321 5220 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 40003 1517)792-4712 PAGE 5 447 WATER PCB-SD0000037481 TRI CITY COURT REPORTERS INC 1 I'm not sure. The incident that occurr^din 1970 in 2 New York? 3 A. I think that's the one. In my mind I refer to that as 4 the New York chicken case. 5 Qi New York chicken case. 6 A. All right. Yes, I forgot that one. That was another 7 deposition. Yes. 8 Qi And that was when? 9A '75. 1975. 10 Q. And just briefly or summarily, Mr. Papageorge, what were 11 the claims in that case? 12 A This was a case involving, again, PCB's in the poultry 13 feed. And the source of the PCB's was difficult to 14 determine. There was some indication that some of it may 15 have come from printing ink and in adhesives in packaging 16 of bakery goods in which the stale bakery goods and the 17 package are crushed and ground and become an ingredient 18 in poultry feed. 19 There is also some indication that it may have come 20 from waste materials from a bakery which used PCB's to 21 heat their ovens and the contention was made that a leak 22 had occurred, contaminated some of the product, the product: 23 was put in disposal bins, the disposal bins picked up by 24 a service company that in turn passed it on to the crushed 25 bakery good operation and it in turn ended up in the 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48708 (3171893-4321 5228 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48803 (517)792-4712 PAGE 54 48 WATER PCB-SD0000037482 THI CITY COURT REPORTERS _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC.__________________ I poultry food. 2 ft Were you manager of environmental control at Monsanto when 3 that incident did in fact occur? 4 A. Yes. 5 ft That was in 1970 when that happened? 6 A. Yes. 7 ft And there were some chickens that were destroyed as a re 8 sult of it, is that correct? 9 A I don't know that. I'm not under that impression, 10 ft That there were chickens destoryed as a result of the con 11 tamination? 12 A I'm under the impression that there was salvage operations 13 made to get the level of PCB in the end product down to 14 an acceptable level. I do not know of any destruction. 15 That doesn't mean that it didn't happen. I'm not aware of 16 it. 17 ft I believe therewas some testimony as to some destruction 18 of chickens in that case and it might have been Dr. 19 Kelly. 20 Did you hear Dr. Kelly's testimony? 21 A Some of it, yes. 22 ft Did you hear him refer to the chicken soup case or the 23 Campbell soup case? 24 A Yes. 25 ft Is this the same one we're talking about? 300 PHOENIX. SLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4870S (3 171 893-4321 S228 STATE ST S \GINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 1517)792-4712 PAGE 5 4 49 WATER PCB-SD0000037483 _______________________________________________________________________________________________ TRI-ClTY COURT REPORTERS INC. 1 A. Not in my mind. There is two separate instances. 2 ft What is the separate -- the one that you are referring to 3 now as being the separate instance? 4 A. This is the case in which I was -- underwent deposition up 5 in New York. The Campbell Soup incident, in my under 6 standing was not related to that. 7 ft The one that you went through deposition in New York, when 8 was that, about 1975? 9 A. The deposition, I believe, was somewhere in '75, '76, some 10 where in that area. ll ft Is that the intercounty ~ 12 A. Intercounty was the source of the poultry feed, as I 13 understood it. 14 ft And there were a number of counties that were ultimately 15 involved in.that thing, is that correct? 16 A Yes. 17 ft And in that case, in intercounty, were chickens destroyed 18 in that case, eggs? 19 A. That is the case I was talking about. I don't remember 20 any ~ I don't remember any chickens destroyed. 21 ft Mr. Papageprgo, can you tell us in the Holly Farms 22 matter, that was out of North Carolina, correct? 23 A Yes. 24 ft And as a result of that were any chickens destroyed? 25 A I believe there were, yes. 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 19171693-4321 3226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 46603 19171792-47 12 PAGE 5'1 5 0 WATER PCB-SD0000037484 TNl CITY COURT REPORTERS __________________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ INC.___________________ 1 Q. Do you recall how many? 2 A. I don't remember. There were substantial numbers. 3 Q. About 88,000, docs that ring a bell? 4 A. No, it doesn't, but it was a large number. 5 Qi And weren't over a hundred thousand pounds of egg products 6 destroyed? 7 A. My memory is not that good. 8 Qi Now, was there -- were there other -- and I'm not sure on 9 this in my own mind, as to other companies or other things 10 being involved in this like Harold's Hatchery, or is 11 that something separate? 12 A I have heard of Harold's Hatchery. I don't know quite 13 how it fitted into the Holly Farm situation. 14 Qi Was Ralston Purina involved in that? 15 A It's my understanding that Ralston Purina also received 16 some of this contaminated fish meal, but that's the extent 17 of my recollection. 18 Ql Is Bond Bakery related to any of these cases youhave re 19 ferred to? 20 A To my understanding, they're related to the New York 21 intercounty situation. 22 Qi And Bond Bakery had a heat transfer unit? 23 A That was my understanding. 24 Qi You were in your position in Monsanto in environmental 25 control and then the name was changed to environmental 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (517)893-4321 5226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (517)792-47 12 PAGE 5 4 51 WATER PCB-SD0000037485 TRI CITY COURT REPORTERS ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC. 1 protection and then product what, development? 2 A. Manager of product acceptability. 3 Qi And until what year? 4 A Till 1977. 5 ft And then what did you go to? 6A I was made director, environmental operations, for one 7 of the operating units within Monsanto. 8 ft What do you mean by operating unit? 9 A Monsanto is divided at" that time into five operating 10 units. Each one having a specific type of product. For 11 example, there was a textiles unit, an agricultural pro 12 ducts unit, industrial chemcials unit, a plastic unit. 13 And the unit I was in was called the chemical intermediate 14 unit. 15 ft And what are chemical intermediates? Are those -- well, 16 you tell me. 17 A Our definition, these are chemicals that are not in them 18 selves end products, they are used as starting materials 19 for other chemical products. 20 ft And you will either use those within the company itself 21 or sell those to other companies? 22 A That is correct. 23 ft Up until that time in 1977, were you working for one 24 department or division or area within Monsanto or was it 25 the entire Monsanto corporation? 300 PHOENIX. BLDG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4870B 15 17)893-4321 5226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 4S603 (5 17)792-47 12 pir.c 54 5 2 WATER PCB-SD0000037486 TRl C 1 7Y COURT REPORTERS _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC. 1 A. I was working at different times for different parts of 2 Monsanto; never for total Monsanto. 3 Q. Were you aware, Mr. Papageorge, of the incident in 1978 4 of some dumping episodes of PCB's, not which Monsanto was 5 involved in, but what was commonly referred to as mid 6 night dumpers? 7 A. I heard of some of those. 8 MR. JUNGERHELD: Your Honor, just a moment, 9 I'm going to object on the grounds of relevancy. Now, 10 apparently whatever Counsel is testifying here about 11 occurred in 1978. I don't see where that's got relevancy 12 to anything that occurred on Mr, Haley's farm between 13 72 and '76. 14 MR. WOODWORTH: Once again. Your Honor, this 15 is cross-examination. Mr. Papageorge is involved in 16 PCB's and environmental control for Monsanto for quite 17 some time. They made PCB's. It again goes to knowledge 18 -- of effects and knowledge of claims, knowledge of 19 environmental contact of the chemical. 20 THE COURT: How is it relevant to -- how is 21 knowledge acquired in 1978 relevant? 22 MR. WOODWORTH: He is testifying today 23 as the knowledge that he acquired since 1977 when the 24 suit was filed. I think I would be entitled to cross 25 examine into areas since this has been filed. 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 1317) 093-4321 5220 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48003 (517) 792-47 12 PAGE 5453 WATER PCB-SD0000037487 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS INC. 1. MR. JUNGERHELD: Your Honor, I don't recall 2 that at all. I think the last year we talked about, if i 3 understand correctly, was 1976. And I would remind the 4 Court that Monsanto didn't even make PCB's after 1977 when 5 theyceased operations, even for the electrical industry, 6 and it stopped manufacture for other uses well before 7 th^t. 8 So I fail to see the relevancy of anything that went 9 on in '78. 10 MR. WOODWORTH: I'll rephrase the question. 11 Your Honor. 12 THE COURT: Okay. 13 ft Mr. Papageorge, after Monsanto -- when did Monsanto 14 cease manufacture of PCB's? 15 A. 1977. 16 ft Are you familiar with the Toxic Substance Control Act? 17 A Yes. 18 ft And when was that passed? 19 A 1976. 20 ft And did that provide for a timetable for the discontinua 21 tion of manufacture of PCB's? 22 A Yes. 23 ft And what was the timetable within the Toxic Substance 24 Control Act? 25 A As I recall, it was targeted for October, 1978. 300 PHOENIX, BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 <5171 893-4321 5226 STATE ST. S GINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 13171792 4712 PAGE 5 4 5 4 WATER PCB-SD0000037488 TRI-ClTY COURT REPORTERS ________________________________________________________ _______________________________ ______________________________INC.__________________ 1 Q. So in 1976 the federal government via the TSCA, said that 2 they were not to be manufactured after October, 1978? 3 A. That is my recollection. 4 Ql Not to be sold after October of 1978. 5 Now, up until that time there were millions of pounds 6 of this material that had been manufactured, or billions 7 of pounds, is that correct, by Monsanto? 8 A. I don't know about billions, but many, many pounds, yes. 9 gi And in the latter '70's you -- or in the '70's you had 10 set up a reclamation program or also set up an incinerator 11 to dispose of this material? 12 A. I don't recall any reclamation program. The destruction 13 program by incineration . 14 Qi And a lot of it still remained out, is that correct, in 15 transformers, in a number of places? 16 A Oh, yes. Probably in this building, right over our heads. 17 Qi And a lot of it also continued to be a problem, did it 18 not? 19 MR. JUNGERHELD: Well, Your Honor, I wonder if 20 we could be a litle more specific. I'm not quite sure 21 what he means. 22 MR. WOODWORTH: Well, I think the witness 23 can answer rather than trying to explain to Mr. Jungerhcld. 24 I think the witness can say if he doesn't understand the 25 question rather than me explaining to Counsel. 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4670B IS 171 893-4321 3226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 1517)792-4712 PAGE 5 A ~ K WATER PCB-SD0000037489 tri-city COURT REPORTERS ____________________________________________________ _________________________________________________________________ INC. 1 T11L COURT: 1 think it's a legitimate objec 2 tion, though, if the question is so big that he can't -- 3 it's difficult to determine what the answer that is being 4 sought. 5 So I will sustain the objection. Maybe you could be 6 more specific. 7 Ql Subsequent to the passing of the Toxic Substance Control 8 Act, there did continue to be a number of PCB type epi 9 sodes in the United States, exposures, contacts, environ 10 mental problems, were there not, that you are familiar 11 with? 12 A. I am familiar with incidences in which PCB's are involved. 13 But in every case, as I understand it, it's a mishandling 14 of the PCB's that creates the problems that are alleged. 15 It is not the proper use within the electrical equipment 16 that is the problem. 17 Qi And what types of mishandling incidents are you referring 18 to? 19 A. Well, improper disposal. 20 Qi Like into landfilLs, dumpy? 21 A. That kind of thing. The unapproved disposal in these 22 landfills. There are instances of leaking, electrical 23 equipment that aren't properly maintained and the leaks 24 are not controlled. There are instances of the owners, 25 the possessers of these PCB's not managing them properly 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (9 17)893-4321 5226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (517)792-4712 PAGE ^ A ^ WATER PCB-SD0000037490 TRl-ClTY COURT REPORTERS _ ____________________'__________________________________________ __________________|_ INC. 1 . on their premises according to the requirements of the 2 TSCA regulations. I don't know if that answers your ques 3 tion any. 4 Ql In part, Mr. Papageorge. 5 Besides landfills and dumps, were there any other areas; 6 of environmental contact concern that arose that you are 7 aware of? 8 MR. JUNGERHELD: What period of time now are 9 we talking about? " 10 MR. WOODWORTH: Same period as I was talking 11 before. He partially answered my question. 12 MR. JUNGERHELD: Well, I don't know what 13 period of -- Your Honor, I wonder if I may, I don't think 14 it's an unreasonable request, I wonder what the time period 15 is. 16 Qi Mr. Papageorge, are you familiar with the time period I wa:i 17 referring to subsequent -- 18 A. I think we're talking about the period shortly after the 19 passage of the Toxic Substance Control Act and the PCB 20 Statutes and Regulations that are covered by that act, and 21 the reported instances of PCB situations, and I tried to 22 describe as best as I recall the kinds of things that 23 are happening. 24 Qi And you did, and I thank you. I asked you whether there 25 were any areas or contacts within that area or time period 300 PHOeNIX. 8LOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48708 (3171 893-4321 5228 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48803 (5171 792-4712 PAGE 5457 WATER PCB-SD0000037491 TRl CITY COURT REPORTERS ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC.__________________ 1 that we're talking about? 2 A. I don't recall any. 3 MR. JUNGERHELD: I was going to object, Your 4 Honor. 5 THE COURT: He doesn't recall anything so -- 6 MR. JUNGERHELD: That takes care of that, 7 ft Were you aware of any claims made out of an American 8 possession from Ralston Purina in Puerto Rico in 1977? 9 MR. JUNGERHELD: Again, I don't see any 10 relevancy whatsoever to this, the time period. It doesn't 11 seem to have anything to do with this case. It's not 12 specified as whether we're talking about Aroclor 1254 or 13 what we're talking about or what species or what kind of 14 claims. 15 THE COURT: Mr. Woodworth, response to the 16 objection? 17 MR. WOODWORTH: I think the witness is going 18 to answer it no, anyway. May I ask the question and ask 19 him if he knows? 20 ft Are you aware of that? 21 A I don't recall -- something about Purina in Puerto Rico? 22 ft Yes, in 1977. 23 A I'm not familiar at all with that situation. 24 ft In the Pierce packing case you testified by deposition, 25 I believe you said? 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4S70B 15171883-4321 5226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (SI7I 792-4712 PAGE 5 458______ WATER PCB-SD0000037492 1 A. Yes, sir. TRICITY COURT REPORTERS INC. 2 Qi What were the claims in that case? 3 A. As I remember, this involved the leakage of PCB's pre 4 sumably from a transformer and its leakage was permitted 5 to enter the drainage system in this packing house that 6 joined all of the wastes generated in the normal packing 7 house. And these wastes are collected and they are 8 processed in a way that makes them useful in animal feeds. 9 As I understand it, the PCB's found itself into some 10 animal feeds that in turn were alleged to have harmed these 11 animals. I don't recall if they're just chickens alone 12 but it seems to me there was some swine involved, hogs 13 and so on. 14 Ql And there were alleged what, damage to these products or IS health effects or what? Do you recall? 16 A As I remember, these were, as far as the poultry were con 17 cerned, similar to what I had heard previously in other 18 similar cases of hatchability problems and presence. 19 Ql And were animals destroyed, do you know? 20 A I do not know. 21 Cl And were food products -- or animal ty-products went into 22 food products destroyed? 23 A I don't know. 24 d Are you acquainted with the Outboard Marine claim? 25 A Yes, that was another deposition I had. 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN A870B (317)893-4321 3228 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48S03 (317)792-4712 _______________ PAGE 5459---------- WATER PCB-SD0000037493 TRI-CiTY COURT REPORTERS ________ ___ _____________________ __________________________________________________________________________________ INC._______________ 1 Q. And when did you give that deposition, Mr. Papageorge? 2 A. 1975, somewhere in that period. 3 Q. And what were the claims in that case? 4 A The claims were that the operations of the Outboard 5 l&rine facility were such that PCB's were permitted to 6 be discharged into the bay and resulting in contamination t 7 of the bay. That is, in essence, what it was all about. 8 THE COURT: Let's take a 10 minute recess. 9 Mr. Woodworth. 10 (Whereupon a recess was taken.) 11 THE COURT: Go ahead, Mr. Woodworth. 12 (By Mr. Woodworth, continuing:) Mr. Papageorge, we were 13 just talking about the Outboard Marine matter where you 14 gave a deposition. 15 Were you involved in any way in the early '70's with 16 I 17 18 the Hudson River and PCB's in the Hudson River? I was involved in two hearings. One conducted by an appoinf ed judge of some sort. It was not a court scene. It was 19 the hearing judge of some sort, administrative judge. And 20 the other was before the attorney general of New York 21 state. .22 And what years were those? What basically were the purpose^ 23 of those hearings? 24 As I understood it, the purpose of the hearings was to 25 establish the source of PCB's in the Hudson River, an 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 IS 17) 893*4321 3226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (3171792-4712 PAGE 5960 WATER PCB-SD0000037494 TRICITY COURT REPORTERS ______________________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________INC.____________________ 1 evaluation of any affects that that presence might have, 2 and some attempt to come up with a workable remedial plan, 3 if that were at all possible. 4 Q. And when was this? 5 A. Somewhere about 1975. 6 Q. Mr. Papageorge, have you ever testified or been involved 7 in any investigations regarding any toocic landfills or dumps or 8 sites or anything along those lines insofar as PCB's are 9 concerned? 10 A. I don't recall any, no. 11 Ql This Howell and Parsons case you referred to that you 12 gave a deposition in, that involved Aroclor 4465? 13 A. Yes. 14 ft And Dr. Kelly testified, I believe, and this is the best 15 of my recollection, Mr. Papageorge, maybe yours would be 16 different, that Aroclor 4465 was approximately a rough 17 mixture of about 50 percent PCB's, polychlorinated bi 18 phenyls, and the other 50 percent, polychorinated 19 terphenyls? 20 A. That is -- 21 MR. JUNGERHELD: In the interest of con 22 sistency, I would object to that because that case involved, 23 not a PCB but rather 4465 which is a different substance. 24 Also in that case it involved heating the substance. I 25 think there's been testimony about that and there were 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. SAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4870S IS 17> 893-4321 322S STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 4SS03 (SI 71 792-4712 PAGE 5 4 6J______ WATER PCB-SD0000037495 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________INC____________________ I fumes which I don't think has any relevance to issues in 2 this case. 3 THE COURT: I'll allow it. 4 ft Going back to my question, Mr. Papageorge, that involved 5 a substance that was approximately 50 percent PCB's, 6 polychlorinated biphenyls, and the other 50 percent -- or 7 approximately 50 percent polychlorinated terphenyls, is 8 that right? 9 A. Yes, it was a mixture of Aroclor1268 andAroclor 5460. ~ 10 ft Aroclor 5460, is that the one that was used inthe Cumar? 11 A Yes, that is one of the two. 12 ft What is 5460? Is that a resin-type or what is it? 13 A It's a solid. It's a resin, 14 ft Well -- 15 A. So -- 16 ft I'm sorry. 17 A I was going to elaborate. So Aroclor 1268, that is a 18 solid, also. So the mixture is a solid which looks a lot 19 like table salt when it's sold, 20 ft And what were the claims in that case? 21 A I don't recall the specifics. But it seemed that employees 22 of the dental laboratory claimed that they were affected 23 health-wise as a result of using that resin Aroclor. 24 ft Did you ever give any testimony in a case involving 25 tetrachlorophthalic anhydride? 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 IS I 7) 893-4321 5236 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 1517) 792-4712 PAGE 5462 WATER PCB-SD0000037496 THICITY COURT REPORTERS INC 1 A. Yes. 2 MR. JUNGERHELD: I don't know how far afield 3 we're going to go here, but this is a substance that's 4 got nothing to do with anything in this case. We would 5 object on the basis of relevancy. 6 MR. WOODWORTH: Your Honor, I asked Mr. 7 Papageorge all the cases that he had testified in or given 8 depositions, and he mentioned a few of them. And this 9 appears to be one that was not mentioned. 10 THE COURT: But do we have to get into past 11 that? What beyond that is relevant, beyond that fact? 12 MR. WOODWORTH: Well, when it was, what type o:: 13 case it was. 14 MR. JUNGERHELD: What is the relevance of it 15 then in the framework of this case? 16 THE COURT: I will sustain the objection. 17 MR. WOODWORTH: May I ask when it was? 18 THE COURT: Sure. 19 ft Okay. When was that, Mr. Papageorge? 20 A. I honestly don't remember that one well at all. 21 ft Without going into any of the claims in the matter or 22 anything about what it was about, let's see if I can find 23 it here. 24 You do recall testifying in a case such as that, though 25 A. Yes. 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN A8706 13171663-4321 5226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 46603 1317)792-47 12 PAGE ___ 5 4 6 3 WATER PCB-SD0000037497 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________INC._________________ 1 gi And was that by deposition or court testimony? 2 A. Deposition. 3 ft Do you know an Elmer Wheeler? 4 A. Yes. 5 ft And he was -- Dr. Kelly referred to an Elmer Wheeler that 6 worked in the Medical Department for Monsanto. 7 Is that the same one that you are thinking of? 8 A. I believe so, yes. 9 ft Toxicologist from Monsanto? 10 A. He handled toxicology matters. He was not a toxicologist 11 by training. 12 ft Is he still with Monsanto? 13 A. No. 14 ft Do you know a person by the name of Jack T. Garrett? 15 A. Yes. 16 ft And who is Mr. Garrett? 17 A He is a member of our Department of Medicine and Environ 18 mental Health and is currently involved with industrial 19 hygiene matters. 20 ft Do you know a Dr. Harvey Elkins? 21 A I've heard of the name. I never met the man. 22 ft Are you familiar with the American Industrial Hygiene 23 Association? 24 A I'm aware of such an organization, yes. 25 ft And what is their purpose, to your knowledge? 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 IS 171 693-4321 5226 STATE ST SAGINAW, MICHIGAN 48603 (3 I 7) 792-A7 1 2 PAGE 5 4 6 4 WATER PCB-SD0000037498 TRIClTY COURT REPORTERS INC._________________ 1 A It's a professional organization to which industrial 2 hygienists, the professionals, belong, just like many 3 other professional organizations. They meet periodically 4 compare notes with each other, make presentations of 5 technical papers and the like. 6 Ql And do they assist the chemical industry in setting 7 hygiene standards and guides within plants or factories? 8 A. No, that is another group, a different group that does 9 that. 10 Qi What would that group be, one with the initials IMA? 11 A I'm not aware of IMA being involved, no. 12 Qi Mr. Papageorge, I'm going to show you what's been marked 13 as Plaintiff's Proposed Exhibit No. 423 and ask you if 14 you can identify that. 15 A This is copy of the hygienic guide series relating to 16 chlorodiphenyls. 17 Qi Exhibit No. 158, being the operating instructions for 18 Aroclor, is it in fact when we referred to some of these 19 back in here, for example, on this one page under Aroclor, 20 it said see hygienic guide series on chlorodiphenyls? 21 A I recall that. 22 Qi And is that what this is referring to? 23 A Yes. 24 Q. The hygienic guide series? 25 A This is it. 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4S706 1517) 093-4321 3220 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48003 1317)792-4712 PAGE --54 65 WATER PCB-SD0000037499 TRI-CiTY COURT REPORTERS __________________________________________________________________ _________________________________________________ INC- 1 ft And have you seen that before? 2 A. Yes. 3 ft And that was used then -- it was appended to Monsanto's 4 instructions for industrial process for PCB's? 5 A. Yes. 6 ft And you used it in the manufacture -- in the course of 7 manufacture of PCB's? 8 A. Yes. 9 MR. WOODWORTH: I'd move for its admission. 10 Your Honor. - 11 MR. JUNGERHELD: I haven't seen it yet. Your 12 Honor. 13 MR. DAVIDSON: I would only object as to my 14 client is not a manufacturer of these items. 15 THE COURT: What is the exhibit number? 16 MR. DAVIDSON: 423. 17 THE COURT: Any objection, Mr. Jungerheld? 18 MR. JUNGERHELD: No, assuming a foundation 19 from this witness that it pertains to the manufacture of 20 1254. 21 THE COURT: Well, there is testimony that it 22 pertains to the manufacture of PCB's. 23 MR. JUNGERHELD: I'm saying, to the extent it 24 does, including the substance we're talking about in this 25 case, I don't have any objection. 300 PHOENIX. SLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 IS 171 893-4321 3226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (517)792-4712 PAGE__ 5 4 66 WATER PCB-SD0000037500 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS _______________________ ______________________________________________________________________________________________ INC.__________________ 1 THE COURT: All right. So I will allow 2 423 subject to Mr. Davidson's objection. 3 Ql Does this refer to chlorodiphenyls? 4 A Yes. 5 Ql This refers to chlorodiphenyls in what percent chlorine? 6 A. The 42 percent and the 54 percent. 7 Ql And the 54 percent chlorine trademark name for Monsanto 8 would be Aroclor 1254, would it not? 9 A More for Monsanto, yes. ' 10 Qi And directing your attention to that exhibit, Mr. 11 Papageorge, I'm going to ask you first to look at the 12 left-hand column of it and the tiny print down at the 13 bottom and who are they thanking for the assistance in 14 drafting that document, for contributions towards that 15 document, if you'd read that, please? 16 A You want me to read it verbatim? 17 Qi Yes. 18 A "The committee wishes to acknowledge the preparation 19 of the medical information section of this guide by the 20 Industrial Hygiene and Clinical Toxicology Committee oil 21 IMA, and to acknowledge also the assistance of Elmer 22 P. Wheeler and Jack T. Garrett in the writing of this 23 guide." 24 Ql And what is the date of this, if you'd look at the second 25 page? 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 1317)893-4321 5228 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (5171792-4712 PAGE 5 4 67 WATER PCB-SD0000037501 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC I A It's dated January/February, 1965. 2 ft Now, under the very first paragraph, what is enumerated 3 with the No. 1, there are recommended maximal atmospheric 4 concentrations, is that correct? And one of those -- 5 A Yes. 6 ft And one cf those is for 54 percent. 7 A Yes. 8 ft Now Paragraph B. Would you please read that paragraph 9 B? 10 A Paragraph B is entitled Short Exposure Tolerance. 11 "Ten milligrams of a diphenyl of unspecified chlorine 12 content per cubic meter of air has been reported as 13 unbearably irritating." 14 ft And if you'd turn to the next page, please. And the next 15 page begins, "Toxic properties of the two chlorodiphenyls" 16 that they're referring to, is that correct? 17 A That is right. 18 ft And one of them is 42 percent but the second paragraph 19 refers to 54 percent, is that correct? 20 A That is correct. 21 ft And does it not, within that paragraph, state that there .22 is -- that there was reported injury to liver cells and 23 increased liver weights in rats? 24 A There.is a reference and it's based on 83 days, seven-hour 25 days, exposures over a hundred twenty-one days and so 300 PHOeNIX, BLDG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4870S 19171893-4321 5228 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 1517)792-47 12 PAGe5AB___ WATER PCB-SD0000037502 1 forth. THI CITY COURT REPORTERS ____________________ INC.__________________ 2 Ql And does the last of it refer to distinct microscopic 3 changes in the liver? Is that correct? 4 A Yes. 5 Qi Would you please read the next paragraph to the Jury, Mr. 6 Papageorge? 7A 8 "The literature contains many references to the potential toxic effects of chlorinated diphenyls in 9 man and animals. Early work included investigations 10 of chlorinated naphthalenes, chlorinated diphenyls, 11 chlorinated diphenyl oxides, and various mixtures of 12 these." 13 Ql Excuse me, I'm sorry, Mr. Papageorge. Diphenyls and 14 biphenyls are the same thing, are they not? 15 A They are interchangeable, yes. 16 Ql Excuse the interruption. Continue, please. 17 A "An early report indicated serious toxic effects from 18 chlorodiphenyls chlorinated to the extent of 65 per 19 cent. A later report by the principal author properly 20 identified the earlier sample as a mixture of 21 chlorinated diphenyl and chlorinated diphenyl benzine. 22 However, few operators of subsequent papers, 23 bulletins or textbooks, have noted this correction and 24 the original data are cited repeatedly as relating to chlorinated diphenyl alone." 25 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (617)893-4321 3226 STATE ST. T4GINAW. MICHIGAN 46603 (5 17)792-4712 PAGE 5 4 6 Q WATER PCB-SD0000037503 TRICITY COURT REPORTERS _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________INC.__________________ 1 ft. Thank you. The next paragraph enumerated with the letter 2 B is regarding skin contact. It states that both compounds, 3 regarding 42 percent, 54 percent, are readily absorbed 4 through the clipped,intact skin of rabbits, is that right? 5 A. That is right. 6 ft And under Paragraph D, the last sentence, will you please 7 read that? 8A "Ingestion. The acute' oral toxicity --" 9 ft Well, just the last sentence rather than the entire para 10 graph. - 11 A Oh, I'm sorry. 12 ft Right after the -- 13 A "Central atrophy of the liver appears to be the chief 14 toxic effect." 15 ft Thank you. And then we go to the division entitled in 16 dustrial hygiene practice. And under letter C are 17 hazards and their recommended control. 18 Would you please read what is reccranended under Paragraph No. 19 1, inhalation. Just the first sentence or first two 20 sentences. 21 A "Absorbtion is chiefly by inhalation. Concentrations 22 in the workroom atmosphere must be maintained below 23 the recommended levels". 24 ft And Monsanto did in fact do that in their plants? 25 A Yes. 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4S70B IS 17) 893-4321 5220 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48003 IS I 7) 792-47 1 2 PAGE___ 5470___ WATER PCB-SD0000037504 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS _____________________________________________ ._____________________________________________________ _________________ INC.__________________ 1 CJl - And on the next page, please, Paragraph No. 2, would you 2 read that as to skin contact. 3 A. "Operations and handling procedures should be such as 4 to avoid the possibility of prolonged or repeated 5 skin contact. Contaminated clothing must be laundered 6 before reuse." 7 fit Okay. And then there is the next paragraph on eye contact. 8 Would you please read that. 9 A. "Eye protection should be used where there is a possi 10 bility of liquid splashes." 11 Ql And the next paragraph, Paragraph 4. 12 A "Ingestion of these materials is not a problem in 13 industry." 14 ql This stuff wasn't made to be mixed in root beer, so to 15 say, as Dr. Kelly said? 16 A That is correct. 17 Qi Neither was it made to be mixed in milk, was it? 18 A That is correct. 19 Ql Nor to be mixed in animal feed, is that correct? 20 A That is correct. 21 Ql So when this was written, would it be fair to say that 22 ingestion was not contemplated within the industrial scene ? 23 A That is a reasonable assumption, yes. 24 Ql And, in fact, Monsanto took workplace precautions to make 25 sure that workers would not ingest the material, is that 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48700 (3 17) 093-4321 5220 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 40003 (5 17) 792-47 1 2 page 5471 WATER PCB-SD0000037505 TRI-CirY COURT REPORTERS ________________________________ _________________ ________________________________________ INC. 1 true? The recommendation of washing hands and face. 2 A. Yes, that is true of all chemicals, yes. 3 Q. Going down further, Mr. Papageorge, under the Roman Numeral 4 IV, referring to medical information. 5 Would you please read the first two paragraphs under 6 Paragraph A or Division A? 7 A It's entitled Emergency Room. 8 "Skin surfaces exposed to chlorodiphenyls should be 9 thoroughly washed with soap and water at once. If 10 clothing has been contaminated, it should be removed 11 promptly. If exposure to a high vapor concentration 1*2 occurs, as in the case of spills at elevated tempera 13 tures, the patient should be moved from exposure and 14 kept at rest until seen by a physician. Oxygen should 15 be administrered if breathing is difficult." 16 ft Thank you. And would you read the very last paragraph, 17 Paragraph B, entitled Special Procedures, please. 18 A "Special Procedures. Persons who are regularly or 19 repeatedly exposed to chlorodiphenyls should be 20 examined periodically to detect early evidence of 21 skin irriation and/or liver damage. Persons with 22 known liver disease should not be exposed to repeated 23 contact with the chlorodiphenyls." 24 ft Thank you. Now, looking at this article right after that 25 paragraph, Mr. Papageorge, there are references, is that 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48700 19171893-4321 5220 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48003 (5 17)792-4712 5472 WATER PCB-SD0000037506 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS INC._______________ .__ 1 correct? 2 A.. Yes. 3 & And we may take it that those references are what the 4 authors used in order to write the paper? 5 A That is a good assumption, yes. 6 ft And together with the footnote on the front page giving 7 thanks to the industrial hygiene and Clinical Toxicoloy 8 Committee of the IMA, plus Mr. -- or Mr. Wheeler and Mr. 9 Garrett of Monsanto contributed towards the authorship of 10 this article, is that correct? 11 A That appears to be so, yes. 12 Qi Now, under references, there is eight references. 13 A Yes. 14 Qi And the first one is referring to Monsanto Company's own 15 Organic Division, technical bulletin, PL-306. 16 Are you familiar with that bulletin? 17 A Yes. 18 Qi And as dated, that is dated December, 1960? 19 A That is what it says here, yes. 20 Qi And it's entitled Aroclor Plasticizers. 21 A 22 ft 23 Yes. Mr. Papageorge, I'm going to show you what's been marked as Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 52 and ask you if you can 24 identify that? 25 A This appears to be a copy of Monsanto's technical bulletin 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48708 (317) 893-4321 3228 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48803 (317)792-4712 PAGE 5473---- WATER_PCB-SD0000037507 TRICITY COURT REPORTERS INC. 1 0/PL-306. 2 ft And have you seen that before? 3 A. I have seen an original, yes, sir. 4 ft And what is the purpose of that bulletin? What is it 5 used for? 6 A It is used as an information document that is shared with 7 customers and ~ potential customers of the Aroclor 8 Plasticizers to help them develop their own processes. 9 ft Thank you. 10 MR. WOODWORTH: I'd move for the admission, 11 Your Honor, Plaintiff's Exhibit 52. 12 MR. DAVIDSON: My only objection is there 13 has been no showing that my client has had access to 14 that or that he even knew about it. 15 MR. JUNGERHELD: I have no objection. Your 16 Honor. 17 THE COURT: I'll allow admission of Plaintiff's 18 52 over Mr. Davidson's objection. 19 ft 20 21 22 A 23 Mr. Papageorge, does the PL in the prefix to the number have any significance? Does that mean plasticizer or anything? That designates that was a bulletin issued by the plasti cizers business department. 24 ft And what does the 0 mean? 25 A At that time the plasticizer business group was part of the 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 46706 (SI 71 693-4321 3226 STATE ST: ^AGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (5171792-4712 5PAGE------- 4X4-- WATER PCB-SD0000037508 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS INC. 1 organic Chemicals Division and the 0 stands for organic. 2 ft 3 4 A. 5 Q, Now, looking at that particular document, Mr. Papageorge, I direct your attention to Page 5, please. All right. And also the top paragraph, second sentence. Does it not 6 represent there, Mr. Papageorge, that Aroclor compounds arej 7 8A not hydrolized by water and what does that mean? By the expression "hydrolized," the chemist is talking abou) 9 a reaction in which oxygen and hydrogen attach themselves 10 to the chemical and fqrm a new chemical. And many chemicaljs 11 in the presence of water will do this. The Aroclor 12 materials do not do this. 13 ft And it goes on to state that it also resists alkalies, 14 15 A 16 ft 17 A 18 acids and corrosive chemicals. It does say -that, yes. What are alkalies? It's like caustic soda or soda ash, sal-soda. You may be familiar with those terms. 19 ft 20 21 22 And on the same page, Mr. Papageorge, the third paragraph, the second sentence, does not this bulletin represent that the Aroclor compounds are unsurpassed for the plasticizing of protective coatings, particularly for use in chemical 23 plants and of the facilities that require a tough chemical 24 resistant surface? 25 A That is what it says, right. 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48708 13171 883-4321 5226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48803 IS I 71 792-47 12 PAGE 5 475 WATER PCB-SD0000037509 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS ___________________________________________________________________ __________________ _______________________INC._________________ 1 Q. And, Mr. Papageorge, I'll further direct your attention to 2 Page 16. It doesn't have a number on it, so you will 3 have to locate it by the numbers on the pages either before: 4 or after. 5 A I believe I have it. 6 Qi Okay. And if you'd read, please, the first sentence of thei 7 very last paragraph on the page. a A. "Epoxy resin protected surface coatings. The use of 9 Aroclor 1254, 1260 or 1262, economically imparts 10 - excellent .chemical resistance particularly to acids li and alkalies." 12 Qi Now, if I could direct your attention then to Page 22. 13 I don't know if that has a number on it, either. There 14 is some charts on that page. 15 A. 1 believe I have that. 16 Ql Okay. And the top chart is entitled "Paints for alkaline 17 surfaces," is that correct? 18 A That is what it says, yes. 19 Ql Now, there's a number of ingredients listed within that 20 chart, is that correct? 21 A That is correct. 22 Q. And what is this, a recommended or a suggestion on how 23 materials can be combined to formulate a paint to be 24 resistent to alkaline surfaces, alkaline compounds? 25 A These recipes or formulations are suggestions that 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4B70B IS I 7) 893-4321 S226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48S03 IS 171 792-47 I 2 page 5 47 6 WATER PCB-SD0000037510 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC.__________________ 1 customers might consider and either use as indicated or 2 modify to produce their own products. 3 Qi So what you do, and correct me if I'm wrong, Mr. Papageorge, 4 the company will suggest you can use your Aroclor 1254 or 5 you can use some of your chemicals in combination with, 6 for example, on this chart, another company's chemicals, 7 a trademark name of another company, is that right? 8 A. That's right. 9 ft Now, let's look at this particular chart, Mr. Papageorge, 10 the ingredients recommended within this. 11 What is the very first one listed on the chart? 12 A. It refers to a federal specification. 13 ft I'm sorry, the first ingredient. 14 A. Oh, the ingredient? 15 ft Yes. 16 A. It's a tradename Par Ion, p-a-r-l-o-n. 17 ft And what is ParIon? 18 A. Well, it's a rubber that contains chlorine. It's a 19 chlorinated rubber. 20 ft Now, Parlon, that recipe I don't -- rather than getting it 21 out right now, but do you remember the formulation for 22 Cumar? That was admitted as an exhibit. Mr. Jungerheld 23 asked you some questions about it. 24 A Yes, I remember some of the ingredients but not all of 25 them. 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4B706 IS 171 893-4321 3226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 IS 171 792-47 I 2 PAGE 5 477 WATER PCB-SD0000037511 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS ____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC.__________________ 1 ft Do you remember Parlon being one of them? 2 A. No, I don't. I'd have to see it again. 3 0> I'm going to show you, Mr. Papageorge, Plaintiff's 4 Exhibit No. 317 and that is what was admitted as one of 5 the recipes for Cumar. 6 Parlon appears in that, does it not? 7 A. Yes. Yes, it does. 8 ft Now, going back to this chart within the Monsanto bulletin, 9 what's the very second ingredient listed on this recommen 10 dation? 11 A. Aroclor 1254. 12 ft Okay. And Aroclor 1254 is found in Cumar, is it not? 13 A Yes. 14 ft Okay. And what's the third ingredient in the chart on the 15 bulletin, is Aroclor 1260, but what is the fourth one? 16 A 17 ft 18 A 19 ft 20 21 22 A 23 ft 24 A 25 ft Aroclor 5460. And Aroclor 5460 is found in Cumar? Yes. Now, going down near the bottom of this recommended paint or alkaline surfaces, there is a Solveso 100. Do you see that? I see that, yes. And that is also in the formula for Cumar? That is right. And there's also xylene. That is a solvent, isn't it? 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY city, MICHIGAN 48706 (317) 893-4321 3226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 15 171 792-47 I 2 PAGE 5 4.7 8------- WATER PCB-SD0000037512 1 A. Yes. TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS INC. 2 Ql And within the recipe for Cumar there is another solvent, 3 only this one is referred to as xylol. 4 Are you familiar with xylol? 5 A Yes, I am. 6 Q. This formula for Cumar is not something completely 7 radical or out of anyone's chemical comprehension, is 8 it not? It is not too unlikely to be set forth within 9 the Monsanto bulletin? Is that fair to say? 10 A Yes. But your designation of the ingredients would imply 11 that all of these listed in Monsanto's bulletin appeared 12 in the formulation, whereas the examples given, some are 13 not used along with others, so there is a difference there, 14 Ql We have, for example, a recommendation for concrete IS swimming pools for a maximum acid and alkali resistance 16 and using different parts of this, is that correct? 17 A An obvious difference. There is a reference in the bulletin 18 to Aroclor 5460 as being an ingredient in some federal 19 government specifications, paint. Aroclor 5460 does not 20 occur in any other examples. 21 Qi Okay. 22 A Xylenol, down below in this same government specification, 23 doesn't appear at all, and yet it appears in the Cumar 24 formula. 25 Qi It also appears in the concrete swimming pool formulation 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4870B (SI7) 893-4321 5226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 1517) 792-4712 PAGE 5479 WATER PCB-SD0000037513 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS INC. 1 for paints. 2 A. That is true, but that formulation doesn't include 5460. 3 So there is a mismatch here. 4 ft But this is not a, so to say, nonsensical, this formula 5 for Cumar, it isn't a nonsensical formula so to say? 6 A. I can't speak to that because I have no idea how this 7 material will adhere to a surface and how long it will 8 stay on that surface and so on. I just don't know. 9 ft Fine. Mr. Papageorge, if I could direct your attention 10 then within the same exhibit, the bulletin, next to Page 36. 11 1 don't know if there is a number on it. 12 A. I think I have it. 13 ft There is a paragraph that has a caption or it's entitled 14 "Vapor suppression or longer insecticide kill life." 15 A. There is a reference, yes. 16 ft Would you please read the first sentence just by way of 17 introduction? 18 A. The effective kill life of expensive chlorinated insecti 19 cide is extended as much as ten-fold by the incorporation 20 of equal parts of Aroclor 5460 which act both as a vapor 21 suppressant and as a sticking agent. 22 ft Now, go down to the last paragraph. 23 A. Aroclor 5460 is also recommended for non-crop insecticide 24 formulations containing -- 25 ft You can skip that. Just go to the last sentence. Well, 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48700 1317) 893-4321 9220 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 4S003 (917)792-4712 PAGE_548Q WATER PCB-SD0000037514 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC._____________ 1 . if you want, go ahead and read it then. Continue on. 2 A. I'm confused. 3 ft I'm sorry. I heard a laugh. They thought it was funny 4 I asked you to skip it, so repeat the paragraph as it 5 was. 6 A. Aroclor 5460 is also recanroended for non-crop insect formulations 7 containing Clorodane, Aldrin, and Dieldrin. The other 8 resinous Aroclor products, 1254, 1260, 1262, 4465, and 9 5442, also non-volitile and sticky or tacky, likewise 10 merit evaluation as insecticide extenders. 11 ft What do you mean "merit evaluation"? Are you recommending 12 that people can use that stuff, 1254, for an insecticide 13 extender? 14 A. We're suggesting that the manufacturer of the pesticide 15 product, they might want to consider this, but he must 16 evaluate it thoroughly because the insecticide -- the 17 active ingredient is using -- may or may not be com 18 patible, may not work well, so it's up to the person try 19 ing to evaluate this combination to make the final decision 20 as to whether it's proper or not. 21 ft So, in other words, what we do here, have a -- in a certain 22 sense, a recommendation of Aroclor 1254 to be used as a 23 pesticide or, more properly, an insecticide extender, 24 within this Monsanto bulletin, don't we? 25 A. That is what this says. 300 PHOENIX, BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 46708 IS 171 893-4321 5226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 4SS03 . IS 17> 732-4712 PAGE 5481 WATER PCB-SD0000037515 TRI CITY COURT REPORTERS INC.__________________ 1 ft Because we had some testimony from Mr. Kelly and I believe 2 some -- perhaps another witness that the use of Aroclor 3 1254 was with insecticide, was unknown. 4 Do you agree with that? 5 A. Well, it was unknown to many of us, that is true. 6 MR. JUNGERHELD: For the record. Your Honor, 7 I would object to the characterization of Dr. Kelly's 8 testimony. I don't think he said it was unknown. 9 THE COURT: All right. Well, he answered the 10 question, "It was unknown to me." 11 ft Mr. Papageorge, was not Aroclor 1254 registered with the 12 United States Department of Agriculture from at least 13 the 1950's as an insecticide extender? 14 A. 15 I don't know that the Aroclor itself was registered. I think a combination of ingredients making a final product 16 was given a permit for manufacture and use. 17 ft 18 19 20 A 21 ft 22 A And FIFRA, that Mr. Jungerheld referred to, and has been referred to within this trial, the Federal Insecticide, Fungicide and Rodenticide Act. Yes. That was in 1970? Yes. 23 ft Would that, to your understanding, disallow the use of 24 Aroclor 1254 within insecticides? 25 A No. That Act gives the EPA authority to make judgments and 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4B70B IS 17) 893-4321 3226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 IS 17) 792-47 1 2 PAGE 548 2------ WATER PCB-SD0000037516 tri-city COURT REPORTERS INC. 1 allow permits or reject permission for use of materials. 2 ft Do you know, as a result, then, as a result of FIFRA being 3 passed, did the EPA then reject Aroclor 1254 as an in 4 gredient or an extender in insecticides? 5 A The EPA took no action because the Department of Agricultu^ 6 had already taken action prior to EPA's active involvement 7 with pesticides. 8 ft And the United States Department of Agriculture then, did 9 they take action in banning or discontinuing the permit 10 of Aroclor 1254 as being an allowable or permissible 11 ingredient in insecticides? 12 A To my understanding they did, yes. 13 ft They did? 14 A Yes. IS ft Next paragraph, please, Mr. Papageorge, is referred to as 16 moisture proofing, is it not, on the same page? 17 A It is. 18 Qi And so we don't go through the entire thing. It basically 19 states that moisture proof coatings for -- and it refers 20 to concrete, among others -- 21 A I see that. 22 Ql And it's best combined with such things -- then it refers 23 to chlorinated rubber among the ingredients? 24 A Yes, there is a list of many ingredients. 25 ft And Parlon is a chlorinated rubber? 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4B70B 19171 803-4321 3228 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48803 (317) 792-4712 PAGE 3.Afl.3. WATER PCB-SD0000037517 tri-city COURT REPORTERS ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________INC._______________ 1 A. Yes. 2 Ql And parlon is found in Cumar along with Aroclor 1254? 3 A. Yes. 4 THE COURT: We'll recess for the day, Mr. 5 Woodworth. 6 We'll look for you promptly at 9:00 o'clock tomorrow 7 morning. So you are then excused. 8 (Whereupon legal argument ensued in the 9 absence of the Jury.) 10 (Whereupon at 4:50 o'clock P.M., on Monday, 11 May 21, 1984, Court was adjourned until 9:00 12 o'clock A.M., Tuesday, May 22, 1984.) 13 14 15 -o0o16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4870S IS 17) 893-4321 3226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48803 IS 171 792-47 12 PAGE 5 4fl & WATER PCB-SD0000037518 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS INC. 1 STATE OF MICHIGAN) ) 2 COUNTY OF HURON ) SS 3 4 We, James R. Fritzler, a Notary Public and 5 Court Reporter in and for Saginaw County, State of Michigan 6 and Donald E. Pearson, a Notary Public and Court Reporter in 7 and for Midland County, State of Michigan, acting in and for 8 Huron County, State of Michigan, do hereby certify we steno- 9 graphically recorded the proceedings had and testimony taken 10 on the 21st day of May, 1984, before the Honorable M. 11 Richard Knoblock. 12 We further certify that the foregoing and 13 attached 203 typewritten pages, or parts of pages, constitute 14 a true and complete transcript of our stenographic notes then 15 and there taken. 16 17 18 Notary Public, Saginaw County 19 My commission expires: 8-30-87 20 21 22 RPR, CSR-0279 23 Notary Public, Midland County 24 My commission expires: 11-18-87 25 bmq: 5-21-84_________________________________________________________________________________________ 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48708 1317)893-4321 3228 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48803 13)7)792 47)2 PAGE----- 548S WATER PCB-SD0000037519