Document O0MavRjxqdQLxapZZ6kk7jdw

1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE TWENTIETH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT 2 ST. CLAIR COUNTY, ILLINOIS 3 FRANCES E. KEMNER, ET AL., ) ) 4 Plaintiffs, ) 5 vs. ) ) NO.80-L-970 6 MONSANTOCOMPANY, ) ) ) 7 Defendant. ) 8 REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS 9 APRIL 18. 1985 IO Before the HONORABLE RICHARD P. COLDEMHERSH, Circuit Judge 11 12 13 APPEARANCES: 14 MR. REX CARR and MR. JEROME SEIGFREID, Attorneys at Law, On Behalf of the Plaintiffs; and 15 MR. JOHN R. MUSGRAVE and MR. JOSEPH MASSIF, Attorneys 16 at Law, On Behalf of Defendant Monsanto Company. 17 18 19 20 21 22 KAREN D. HOPKINS, CSR, RPR 23 OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 24 I INDEX OF WITNESSES PAGE 2 3 In Chambers 2 4 Called on behalf of the Plaintiffas 5 MR, PHOCIAfl PARK (Section 2-1102) 6 Recross Examination (Cent.) (By Hr. C a r r ) ................ 16 7 Redirect Examination (Clarification) 8 (By Mr. Muagrave)............... 126 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 1 '.INDEX OF EXHIBITS 2 PLAINTIFFS' MARKED FOE ADMITTED 3 EX. NO. IDENTIFICATION INTO EVIDENCE 4 1312 Page, 17 Page 20 5 1313 Page 27 6 1314 Page 76 Page 7a 7 1315 Page 92 Page 92 8 1316 Page 109 Page 110 9 DEFENDANT'S NARKED FOE 10 EX, HO, IDENTIFICATION II ssa Page' 143 12 889 Page 166 13 14 IS 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 I *iy I BE XT REMEMBERED AMD CERTIFIED, that haretofora, on 2 to-wit: April 18, 1985, tha matter at hereinbefore eat forth 3 cane on for hearing before tha Honorable Richard P. Goldenhereh, 4 Circuit Judge in and for tha Twentieth Judicial Circuit, and 5 the following vaa had of record, to-wit t 6 7 8 (Tha following proceedings were had in the Judge's 9 chambers outside tha hearing of tha jury*) 10 11 12 THE COURT: Okay. 13 MR. MASSIF: Do you want me to repeat? 14 THE COURT: Yes, please. 15 MR. MASSIF: Okay. I informed the Judge and Mr. Carr 16 and Mr. Selgfreid today that because of some documents I found 17 in Mr. Levinskas's file last night that I have learned that 18 other toxicologists were involved in the review of the presence 19 of dioxin in tetrathal end that I could not be sure that Mr. 20 Carr had received all of the documents pertaining to the Rashmi, 21 R-A-S-H-M-I, Hair, N-A-I-R, memo and the Section 8(e) meeting 22 held in January of 1985. I informed the Court and Mr. Carr 23 that I have someone this morning going through files of other 24 toxicologists and individuals who have been identified in 1 documenta X received last night and will be providing that 2 Information to Mr. Carr hopefully today, if possible, if not 3 possible, by tomorrow. 4 THE COURT; You named some Individuals. Could you 5 put those names on the record? 6 ME. KASSIFs Yes. The names of the individuals were 7 Timothy Long, a Mr. Fuehrman, and a Mr. Farley. Judge, there 8 may be others, but to my recollection Ifm not sure if that's 9 all or not. In terms of the Department of Medicine and Environ* 10 mental Health the only two that X am aware of are Mr. Long and M Mr. Fuehrman. r;; .-*/ i x ^ -w ' 12 THE COURT: And Farley is the same Farley who was 13 mentioned in testimony yesterday? ^ ' - % r '' ** v* / - 1 > *t r * * j; v 14 MR. MASSIF; Right. And X don't know, Your Honor, 15 If Mr. Fuehrman ie a toxicologist: or not, but he was copied * 1 - n ' -- * j ' + r 16 in on a memo from a toxicologist. 17 MR. CARR: X think the record should also concede, 18 unless Mr. Hassif meant it to be an off-the-record comment, 19 that he acknowledges that these late documents, the way they 20 have been coming in a document at a time, have very greatly 21 hampered my cross, examination of the witness that's currently 22 on the standi. X think the words Hr. Massif used, that X had 23 been blindsighted with some of these documents, and while he 24 regreted It personally, nevertheless it's occurred, and X A 1 till don't have-- Apparently Hr, Haecif is going through the 2 Levinske* files. He ha h a d them now for some time and X 3 could h&vft used those Levinskas files. You told me yesterday 4 you were going to give It to me by Thursday and I'm hoping 5 that this witness will be off the stand this morning. And if 6 there's anything that I could use with this witness X sure as 7 heck don't want to be put in the position of having to call 8 this witness back to the stand and continuing to prolong this 9 trial. If X had had the documents that X used yesterday after 10 noon with this witness when X first called him to the stand 11 X could have incorporated all' that and moat of what we did 12 yesterday wouldn't have had to,take place. And all this is ' < 1< 1 - i - <,, * 1 i . - ^*i ' u t -< 13 is a prolonging the trial day after day after day because each 14 day I get another little"'document^ -:7 , ! -f 15 HU. HASSIF: Your Honor X don't disagree with the 16 fact on this witness Mr. Carr has in fact been blindslded. 17 1 made that statement and I'll stand by that statement. In 18 terms of the Levinskas information X got the Levinskas infor 19 mation the first portion of It yesterday and brought with me 20 this morning the last portion of It. So X have not had that, 21 information for any period of time. ,I reviewed it last night 22 after getting It yesterday and disclosed the information that 23 I thought and X understand it is my opinion but that I had 24 thought any application to this witness or was called for in a r BATONNC, p o . 5 1 you know, under the prior request, and I would say to this 2 Court that the information X received today I have been informe 1 3 by the person who reviewed it is that It is not pertinent to 4 this witness, but I cannot certify that myself, Your Honor, 5 because as X said, I received it into my automobile at 3:00 6 this morning prior to coming over to Belleville, But X will 7 look at it at noontime* X have been told-- 8 THE COURT: fthore Is all this information physically? 9 Bo you have it now? 10 MR. KASSXF: X just brought. It-and dropped it off at "' k 1* , \ j ' : i' #' t ' if' *, j , * '' - 11 the Belleville office this morning. X mean, the last part. 12 The first part was just,: was not very much, and X was able to '" 's/ 1v f" * * 1 13 get through that last night. The last part is published 14 materials and some books and there's' a few thin files in there. J5 And I 'll review it over, the lunch hour and bring the files up, 16 if there is anything in there pertinent to this witness, If 17 you want me to, Your Honor. 18 MR. CARR: Your Honor, there was something else that BAYO N N E. N.J, 19 developed night before last when v g wore at Coburn, Croft O O 20 offices going through these original files that, of Roush's 21 that had been ordered to be produced and that we had gone 22 through the original files of Roush's a week or two ago. There 23 was another, file brought in of Roush's, his TSCA Section 8(e) 24 file, which had in It documents.for the greater part that X had , #* *. J already aeon and not particularly Important. But righe on th 2 top of that file were two documents* < One was a single-page s$"- 3 letter to Dr. Ellefeaon in January 1984 at the very time that 4. they ware taking the evidence deposition of Dr. Ellefeeon. * ' A. ,,5 - The second was &> letter of January 1984 sent to Dr.Ellefesoa 76 two days before we concluded his cross elimination in which he ' 7- had been, sent in which they discussed th fact that he had 8 been sent porphyrin analyses of Monsanto employees. ; These 9 porphyrin analyses there were 26 abnormale in the porphyrin 1 - 1/iVy vpf?j analyses that had :bean vsent \to Dr.:;Elfeeon. .How I knew J , V;`* H that Roush had bean because Hewbold or somebody had inadver- - . v * :* iA\ i'/' V'-*' ^ ,V;>- ' 12 tently mentioned that -Dr;. Roush had baen visiting Dr. Ellefeson 13 ^ and I inquired of him at that timo; The material that was . 4 stuck in this TSCA file, Dr. Roush1c-EXlefocon porphyrin 15 material, had absolutely nothing to.do with the TSCA file. 16 . It wasn't e v m remotely similar to it. Mr. Massif assured me 17 that he delivered the file to me in the oame faohioh that he. 18 got it that those two documents were on the top. I have no 19 reason to doubt him and I believe him, certainly, but .it ,20 indicates to me very strongly that Dr. Roush or somebody at .i ^ x* 21 Monsanto hae entered into a-- Well, .all this dribs and drabble 22 of discovery that w e 're getting now that we should have had - 23 months ago shows that they have entered and X have asked time 24 and again for sanctions. t It hews that they have been deliberately 1 attempting to thwart the just end of this case. This Ellefesen 2 material is literally dynamite, Your Honor, and if 1 had not ;3 Just by accident insisted again upon seeing the original files 4 of Dr. Roush's relating to the TSCA, because of the dribbles 5 that we've been getting In on this TSCA file, very pertinent. 6 What is a marker of dioxin exposure. Very important as far as 7 porphyrins.; And the Jury knows it and the Court knows it, `8 everybody knows how important porphyrins is, and Monsanto has 9 to know it. And to.have -26/abnormal^resulta stashed away in a ' , :*-*; I,v fr'. f. <i c -' - f ?vT--*i1v.. ...f`"T* -* - -t ' 10 different file sad hot given to'me,'well, I want it on the ` 11 record, t don't know who is raspohsihle ior it. . I'm sure, 12 certainly believe Mr. Massif that he's not, but somebody is, 13 and it s Just by pure accident that we got that file. 14 THE COURT: Do. you have the results? : : 15 MR. CARRi Yes, .I have the results and. I'm going to 16 use them now in examining Dr. Roush,, but I could have had them 17 and used them in examining Dr. Ellefoson if I had known that 18 they had been delivered to Dr. Ellofeaon. And there was also 19 a letter going along with these studies in.which Dr. Ellefeson 20 la told by biostatistic analyses, five percent may be abnormal 21 here and five percent may be abnormal there, of which 1 22 . didn' t knew about and which I know they knew about, because I 23 remember Mr, Heineman cross examining Dr. C a m o w months ago about this five percent possibility that one out of, five out '*- ' 8 I of very 100 are going to have an abnormal result or something M *** . 2 of that sort and X remember that. And they.knew about It *' * * ; l "i j ' 3- they had to ktiow about it. It just X Just don't knot? what 4 else might be, quote, .accidentally, end of quota, stuck in Y' S.' S*' the wrong; file that.they haven't produced, and that's again J a strong teason I think for requiring-- Wall, the Court's Y: already ruled on that, and the.president is going to be 8 J. 9 required to sign it.., - . . " F "m-i t. J>. ir-ii -^ ^ L j* .^*>; * > ^ - Ti ^ i A , *- t* THE COURT : r X Jhave! 7 Y :-Y ,f *' ' iT, 'u f-'- .*( ,, . y i * , t '/Y'; ' 10 HR CARR:, But. X just feel sometimes like I'm trying , `--v... r .h y j *a\ - ' i/ Vl'/v ' lf1 li V '[J V-- v v -f ' - ll/ this lawsuit vith one7hand tied' behind thy back. 12. MR. NASSIFr. Your Honors and I; do not suggest that . 13 -*->, r< .'14 T-i Hr. Carr *s misrepresented anything in his, what he's Just put on the record, but by way of explanation information that Mr. -y v 15 \ Carr does ndt toow, but may be aware of, the document, the two 16 documents pertaining to Ellefeaon on their face do not mention 4?.';* chlorophenols, the word dioxin or the toxicity of dioxin. 18 19 ; 20 , They are almost like an^ analytical table in nature. It just . j' ' ^ '* r < *. j * .?>., r1- ~1\ *' 1 L L^ - l 1r * has numbers with an attacluasnt. Eycn the porphyrin, biostat, atat, whatever, porphyrin statistics that Hr. Carr referenced, 21 : they don't identify;dioxtos or chlorbphenols, and I have to 22 , Ts admit that X want through his file and X indicated to Mr. Carr 23 ; that X went through it erne time; These were the three 3(e) 24- . files X "mentioned that Roush had stuck in his desk and Mr. Carr BAYONNE, N.J, 1 as he is quite aware of, did not have an opportunity to review 2 theca. 1 went through.those files and. X told Hr* Carr that X 3 did not see these tvo Ellefeeon documents and that ! must have 4 vent right oyer them. However, X vas-wrong, Those, documents 5 were not in those three desk files when X looked at them, 6 because Ur. Heineman had gone through those three desk files 7 and he told me they were not in there either. So what happenet 8 according to Dr. Roush when X checked'this with him, is that , 9 he had. stacked these three when he returned them to his desk, to the temporary secretary, had these Ellefeaon documents, appar 11 ently Rex, somebody had requested copies of them or something, 12 she had stacked them on-top. When I asked them to bring those 13 original files, bade so I could give them to you,, he grabbed 14 what he thought was the document and shoved It into the file 15 and closed it and brought the three original flies with him, 16 i* 8ow, I vent through those files and X hadn't seen It tha first 17 time. X believe that that's probably.what took place, because 18 X think I would have recognized it. X apologized. X told Rex, 19 1 * X apologise. - 20 NR. CARR: Why weren't they in the first group of 21 documents brought to me, the original files brought from Roush, 22 because they were not TU TSCA files, and Heinaman reviewed 23 them and pursuant to my request on them just recently they .'24 weren't there. 10 1 ` HR, MASSIF: J?hby weren't there* T \MR., CARR: But1I had asked for Roush* e original 3 . flies on dioxin arid the medical effects of dioxin prior to the ` 4 , time 1 asked for these TSCA files' and they vere not produced ; 5 then. ,So that means that somebody took those files deliberate! 6 and did not give them to me and, stashed them somewhere and '- -7 *8.; 1 then later oh they surfaced and ware put in the TSCA files. , r~- - i * , ^ y .) i 'i . . ? -- "i A : fi-p / : - There' s n o "other explanation* f^Somebody deliberately took those ' ' -' iv- ' J i** - k j.'i'i - . 1 files out and put them away .and you did n o t ,,bring those files ' A A A A A i A>.*>*>-.'--i*.5, t ........................ . to the office here two or three weeks ago'when X reviewed all M the Roush the original documents*, They weren't there. 12 MR. MASSIF: Rex, I don't know where they were > t* i-.'*i3Hf'i^& 'tv'1 'V i V 13 originally filed. My only explanation, Judge is they vere not .f 14 . in the file identified. L / 5 ^ MR* CARR: Well, why don't you do this, because 16 there may be, others, go, to Dr. Roush's office and find but .17; \ where those documents were kept,, because tlbiey apparently were 18 19 . taken from a file, some file that you nave not produced, some 1 L- . i t* ^ ', ' 11 1 i; r* ' t . _ ' ^ *. ' '* file that you have not seen, go to his office yourself, go 20 ? through his files. 21 MR. HASSIF: I 'll suggest to the Court that I had 22 Dr, Roush do that. V'" .. 23 ^ MR. CARRt , You bed Dr., Roush dp that. I'm saying ^l .- t , r T3 T ,, v -; 24 ' 'you do.it.. .. BAYO N N E, N.J, 11 Q1 MR. HASSIFs Okay, tod I will be glad, to do tbat, 2 Your Honor. 3 ME. CAERs You guy are the ones that signed the 4 affidavit. You guys are the ones, Roush is not. cooperating. ic, * 5 Park is not cooperating. There has not been a single witness 6 on that stand that has attempted to honestly answer ray t< 7 questions and to give decent honest answers, tod If the 8 conduct on.the stand is,any indication to the way they reply 9 to your-- Fhocion Park, the documents you had asked him for, < 10 3i the documents I got from him, you had asked him for these 11 things before. He didn't give them to you.. He didn't give J 12 them to you at all when you asked for them. .How, when you ask 13 for the original files I see all kinds of things that is . : * 9T .I /LI 14 t.i pertinent material that X could use, so X cannot depend upon 15 these people with cooperating on the law. They are not lawyers*. 16 ( You are the guys that have to do It. 17 I' MR. NASSIFj Your Honor, X can only assure you that 18 we are making an effort rto go beyond, when X say beyond, to i n'i 1? insure personally that a lawyer involved in this litigation ,,-t. 20 1i commands a discovery of all Monsanto information, We are doing; 21 that posthaste. We are going to once and for all be able t 22 certify consistent with your order regarding Mr. Mahoney and 23 Hr. Beineman and we. are doing that right now, tod X will '24 personally be involved in that. I've been involved in meetings; 1 been delivered to you .monthsago is being charitable, probably' > 2; a year-and-a-hal ago under discovery orders. . 3 MR. CARR: Well, Judge, I'm more concerned that X havo i 4. material that X need, on Roush than with this witness. The 5 document*-* And if there's .anything new we con call him back, 6 but X would, I would not like to lose any more court time. 7 This is work that I can do at night if they deliver the document; 8 We've been doing it at night.and I don!t went to lose any 9 court time, and if something does come up that X think is eignif 10 leant to use with this witness, well, then X would ask the 11 leave, of Court to'call him back, but X-wouldn't want to shut L2 down on this point at this point, because I'm very close to 13t being through with. him. and ! want to move on to Dr* Roush. But 1.4, X ;do want*** . 15 - ,THE.COURT: Is Roush next? . 16 MR. CARR* 116*0 next.' Well, we'll have a vary short 17 witness in between, but he's next, .and I ,do need this informa 18. tion before we conclude with Roush, end probably-- Vtell, 19. depending-- . I don't know what Roush .has. in his. files, so there 20 may be a lot,of things that I need; X would say this, Judge, 21 In all candor, is that we don't start with Roush, tie finish up 22 Park and this, other young lady and we don't start with Roush 23. until I've got all that discovery, because I think that Roush 24 material, him going through Roush's flies in view of the importance of this, E liefeson business ,that X got a u d i t 's extremely importent , I may be very .crippled in examining Roush without .knowing that I've got everything that he's got. So; since we1r going tobe.off, wo are going, to ,be-off Monday? -" J*_*t 'v- lf'1:'} ^ \ //vj *tt/y ' \ 1 ;THE COURT( V W * l l r ^ " - ;- ; HR. CAKRr ^And -it Justioccurrd to me; that that might -r ..... i j'\\ v vv jr i^ ^} '*. be the appropriate thing to do Is to finish up with these . i. ' ` 'N j , -J , 'i . , ^ Y ' ^ , '> f-Th 'i "% * * 1 " r_ i witnesses that we have .now, ?shut dovn{untilwe get all the T Roush,material. v.-, THE- COURT i Fine, And am available. X don't know if. there* anything in there that you wmild possibly want in camera, / You know ray homo.number, you know where I- am. I don't want to find out Tuesday molding that I 've got .to look at somethingin camera from.all this stuff and then delay it even more, ;Find me. Drop it off; .I'll get back to you. MR. HASSIF: Fine. If we have any in-camera-- MR. CARR: If w finish up as I think we will, early this afternoon, I would.like ja t o 'go directly to Roush's office from th courthouse and do not give Roush an opportunity! do not call him in advance and tell him that, you're coming and direct everybody not to call Roush in advance. Joe goes ; ' directly to his office and goes through all.the.files in Roush*i office to discover what's ln there. .Not with Roush* a. coopera tion, but without Roush1Acknowledge what you're going to do in Ae 15 advance. I trust you* Mr;JSassif; but ! don't trust Dr. Roush. , MR. NASSIFi Your Honor, Dr. Roush is here, because. 1,, - ' . i we thought lie might b called today, and what I will do is - .,, ' . J .V ' will inform hli while `he'e'heireithac*!1^ bis office - 1l -"v \. '- * , * I; > l t * * *W \ \ ^ r' * ' - ' * / '?i * 4J, V > ^ V;* V `- ^ x L'- T t . after court is over and ,1 will go through his documents by myself and; I'll go ttoUghwhcreverl can find any files that have his control or any other .thing that I. will certify to Mr* . - ; -- ( i n ^ X ^ v r' V;y$i w ^ , / - v :; Carr that he has in fact seen everything, and if he hasn't seen everything I .will pull it. and .make sura he sees it isanediatoly, sees it posthaste* ' .`,,v." ^ . MR* CAER: All right. But I don't want Roush getting to His office or cal ling.:the office before you get. there. X . don't want him to know that,you're going to go through his files X don't want him to be informed of that fact. X want you'to be over there before, he knows or before he can tell anybody. . T H E ,COURTi X-think that's a good idea* and X,would extend that to these other people that ar listed*.. I^./MSSIFs Rex, .I would only inform him to the extent that I would want to make sure' I can get; access; .. ME'. CARRr Yes/ but you can't be sure that he won't call somebody end say, go to file drawer such-and*such and pull it and put it someplace.' X don't want that to take place. .v ' MR.NASSIF: I? 11 make sure that he is not informed. ' He won't be informed by -me and he~won't be informed before X get t^ - *' ' 7 - ,r . '_ " 1^ i '* - . f - ^ :"L'S-T -,' - 1 , ' r * V* ' * ' f' " '. o r^,> -''"V j sp ' ' >. l # , ^ -,, ` 'J * L. , i .r r, V ` *. j * '*. l * r ,, ,,' *' j%v,r' ,i, 3.LI V; /' - " ''Vvu ;L ^ '<` ;r., f * rr ." ' r r 1 -S s v- > L, v ' . v - ' ' "-; x *- W ' . ' - - V> ` . .- - -, - - i. J- i w .`vV'.-V i :'' " there and I111 stay there -and get )it .done. .. ,' r..,- .**' ' 16 y.lrT r "2 - THE COURT s .That' 3 fine, and I ^ant "that procedure \ 3 ' followed with the other.,people on this list, 'too ; . - Vv'.i \ v >iV:* 4 M . iiASSXFi: 5>rheir^filee Without, any>notlce to them' - 5 are being pulled right now by an &ttorneyfrcm> Coburn, Croft ;^ V P , ' ;? - 6 ~ and . P u c a e l `J *:-i?- ^^ ^ w ::,;- .;:V i si*\ V LI^ - 7' 8.; v THE COURT! ;Cood* .let1'keep it;that way. ` " . -^-f, i f,- `i '-i - J - `i * * . MR*''MASSIF1 That's why I started at 7 00 this morning 9 : 0 they walked in and emr n lawyer in their area: pulling their _ *-.r./`i;-''-. - ^ * ' / *'-/* jf'-> v . ,'v .., . ^. 10 .taaterials*' v^ - V\ ... _ \ *'/.. r- - , H% c 11 12 ` ,` .f ' ,* f. ` <' V v t -r . J . ' .^ ^THE COURT: Good. x Because this is,ridiculous* ' 'V-- - , -M- ''n - . .* ' ' ' . , * * , - i t ., - - - -k ' ' ' ..'r- , i(f. ' ;, ,, f .. -' Let's see i f ;we'v e ,got a juror. `,, Okay* 5- " 13; kl , ^ 4 ' k, - 1 " r - iAv * ' ^ -j 2 ; r 7 - : # j v * f - t a . k ". V -". .'Wv*- * ie '*/+ 1 - -' .k -- '^ " * . V.'- 1 4 -> 7 * , - 15 r ; 16 : (fee following proceedings were had in the courtroom ,17 within .the hearing of ^ e jury ,and th reross eremination of L "1 .1 r t-. T >' * ^ r V\ ~ ' r* ' '' -l ' % `r . I " -t 1 - - X i is Mr. Rhocibis Park by Mri jCarr continued :as followst) r ' n, ^/ 19 ;; 20 - ^. , 21 , , V '^^THE COURT: Good morning. Ladies ,and gentlemen, X / 22.. apologize for us starting^ late. ,As I've told you many times 23'.' there are certain matters- that have to :be done outside the 24 presence of th Jury/ h We had to; take care,o f ,certain of PEN GAD CO, 'L' K `'x ^ "> T , - ^ ^ \ - -'V , F' r 'V J ` L 17 those matters,this morning, f .I believe they ar resolved for .2 now# so we will, resxizae/with; testimony in the ease* 3 4 i > : n6 ' "7J; y :8 , v; 9; To 11 Gentlemen. 'j \* ^ Tv J 'J 3'*- ,-r `- | r - ' i ' A j . r ^ _ ' E ' , V _____ t J _ -' ^ . y 4s7 T T P W '^no: ^ 1 , -V- OS "t ' * . /.-'>* * ^ ,^v r-A!. , H ' _ . _ , *^'*" . . . " ' ' ' . L v ' i ' i ' v , ' '''"' ,: ' I, '>7! <. 1: - " ,,, - - - .-*j. y . `; V "''V v'-\-. VJ " vr *^ * --' r (At this time Plaintiffs1 Exhibit No.,1312 was marked / . ; ;v,i ^ v V 'jA t -r>-jH '-y"V 7 . t . 71 3 i 5j'<1,'' > -` *i,, . 1 * * for Identification by the court reporter;) - ^ ^. Q (Hr. Carr) Mr* Park, X 111 hand you what * been i - *Pj7 * l* f. 1 t >*-* ' 1 , -, _ " Plaintiffs* Exhibit 1312. and ash you to review"" that, .please. . l ' ... , , \ l i ",, '< t . *, v * * ^ 1 '. - -1 r ' \ "` 'L ^" ,J ^ * *r , * , ' ,5- J," ,. ' ' " * tHr. Park, this docment .was delivered, to me at 85 30 this m o m - " 12', ,ing at our.Office here in;,Belleville. Have you: seen, it before# 1 .13 sir? ;T u A- . I saw it this morningi Mr. Carr. v^; f';. av . 15 Q e Is', that, the.first'-time?'-; /" ;*; -/ ' .", 16 .'A . %es V .. ' '/V`V : ^' - ; 17 Q Ws your TSCA-- And it-relates to the Dr* Nair memo 'P E N C A D C O . B A T O N N E .- N .J . , ,,0 7 0 0 1 ' ' 8 of January 1985# does !it not # sir? r \ / T 19 - . 20 .. " /, *' % A Yes# it does. /'. "' v> , ' : J;' " , f `>A" " ' ' \ \- J,, *^f rt',,r ! * E ' 7 ' ; '. ( | , - ,A- , 'j -, * ? * ' , Qv,; And that m m o i th the one that stated that 250 parts - t 21 ' , y- 22 per billion of total dioxin in your tetrathal should be reported to the EPA. Do you recall that, sir? ' \ r. . 23' A. ; 'She didn*.t state it .quite that way# lir. Carr. * 24 ` Q `H f .:Park, did she not state that it should be reportec, t.  -*' ; ' . ,`y V ''> v.k'* ' -;'/ ,> to the EFA? ; '- / ; - ' -c' f' / A Theconclusion of'her memorandum* was that information .L ' ' . }v ; t '' v . .. .. ' v should -be ^"re-p-o;rte'd c't;ro,, t m h e ^('i',EVPt A*' r -f.rV}*,. ^I ^/>4. * &;r;C-`L i _ ' 1 y ! t- .11 >- ` ' ` J Then the answer to my question is.yes, ia it not, sir? A ,Nof ^ao.3ru^pBt^dl''ft"tv.y^v-VNfv^-afrtrrr.-;->'s"'-i`6tiu/fi,'Vti; >' Q Did she say, "1 feel this information should be : I-.- J. 'i'i;\vi-'T*r.-5V r.iV ^ ^. submitted to EPA undar Section 8(e)? f-TSCA?" . . F ` :` . ' ' I don't have.'that memorandum before me-.. If that is f a quote from it, then I -assume that that is' in the memorandum. MEL CARR ;, Would you give thewitneissPlaintiffs Exhibit 1 2 9 6 please ? ;:* (: ^ ".V ' (Mr. Carr) The last clauseon the last.page of her \ report right above her signature by 'Dr. Nair, "1 feel this info^ mation should be submitted; to EPAunder Section 8(e) of T5CA." It says that, doesn't it, sir? .^- 3.1/ - " - 1 f| - jl t v 1"j ' . '>> i i * A .That is crrect^^'v^.".'*, jr ' '. ' Q And she is talking about a product that is contamin*- ted vith 25D parts per billion.of polychlorinated dibenzo- dioxin,' i s she not, sir? v, ` /" ? r ^ A- Part of the infortnation she considered is, would be tetrathal with that, she assumes an average-- She'says, "X'm ' F ' F/ ' - " ^ . , , 5/^ - s . - . ' ''4 , kS'. ' 'L ,> *. v ' ' * lf assuming^ an>average amount of;polychlorinated diben2 0 -dioxin "pp -i *.`i- Hr'-"V.'-v : .! ;\ . ^ .. contamination o 250 ppb/" / F V r -' . _ '' - -,1, ' , ` 'r * ( . . f1 i ^ 1 1 T* r i.| - lr ' Q - Now, Doctor, ishe did not; say*-- ' - Hr! _ 'i- . ' - 1 ^; Park,'she ' said 'J ' ^ 'i v ' 1 X ' 1-VV * * 7 " r lCO`> * \ -`.T ( -.< ' _ ' . .` J, ^ 19 1 that she* s using that ;because that is th, average, is it not, ^' 2 sir? :-a A v -';i VZ--Z 3 ;/ A' TWJfel1l-1f 0s^h1e '.nasc5s,tTimm5e/d:^c'ifft*ito; ibliO'j-ialtnV'-aaTv7e*r*aQCgTe*, as X tread it, V "' * - ' ' - ^ . r- > , , `; A ^ `4 . 5U- Hr; Carr, ' ' .' ' i#''S y>ri-* }A} -' -, 'A A*-;", ,, o*1A *'' \ /"f i1, A i i * ' - "i . v 1, , ^ V. - *- ^ ' 1-. - ` - J A,---' . "V Q /Did";you or anybody else ever calculate that/and show 6 . *7 ` .< ' fr *A.' ' .A\A-*?l~>--S;,i,1. '.A v`^ ">.A- "" that that,'was in fact an erronous ;assumption? j - ' ' ",, v? > '1 - - 1` -- % p S. t V .' r ^ 13 , * ' *1 L ^ ' A, I did not. I ;do not know if anybody *a 15 . * * ' St " 1 *, V J, else did. , ,.i ^ r JLc r -8 * t s `V 7 ' j. t ,'/* I ' * '/ -. * S " ,J *; jr* ' ,, ? (, ^k - 'i* r* * , 'J " Q And she stated, did she nt, that the average amount 9-; of that coataxnination was 250 parts per billion? I: > rid-*-, ` A She stated that she assuaed that, Hr. ;Carr. ' . ii 12 ,L Q .. - Doctor, \7ould. you look-- rHr. Dark, would you look at -:r - .. ; th top of the page? Does she not say, "The average amount of 13 polychlorinated dibenso-dioxin-PCDD contamination la 250 parts $ & < :-14 ;. - j per billion? / J* r 'jJh ," " .*' . ; 7 - "I A', 'AAV > i1 d HJ ' 15; ' A It does say that.\/That's of the indented portionj 16 after she ss, *fX*vo calculated that baaed upon' using the ' i-z,r following assumption/ V /Wear the bottom of the first page, ; /is-a : Q And that assumption, so far-as you know, is based 191^ f "20 ; upon facts and she finds/that the ranges go from -5.1 to 530 parts per billion? -a V K - 1' ,'._ /k 2 1 ^ /A don* t really lcnow how ehe came to that assumption. - 2? A 23 , 24 ^ ( Q V ;Neither you nor anyone olee has ever contradicted that statement;., have -you,/sir? , 1^ : ; A X don11 know whether anyone else has. V f 1j-~ , a 'l v 20 s. \ \ ; `2 .4 , S' 6r . ' 7- " .8 9 , 10 11 ,, J r 12 u' '14 ; 15 ' 16 , -17 18: 19 20.; " 21 '22 \ >' ?3 k 24 Q . To your knowledge, Hr, Park; neither you nor anyone 1 . -, i<t-.v * * -1y\<.v`"I*CJ*'-i,\ " V\ ./- * ~,V J' t lse has ever ,contradicted.tkat^ statement, isn't that correct, ' . i 5;: 1 `W x " v - v - . , sir? A t ' ' n , ~rf'r ' 1 - /."'I ,, \ ! ,. i : V r * ; - . . {/'. I ;:; ' 1r * . ' I just cannot Crdali; MrV Carr. 'v ' Q And l `m asking..you,to,your knowledge, " 1 i~} >^1 *,,* ; 'w *v , ' J>' " A Not to my recollection. Q That means that-which you can recall, Mr. Park. A Yes. " ` `/ . **- \ i Q Is there any document, that ,you know of from your TSCA file that contradicts the statement that the average contamination for tetrathal is 250 parts per billion for poly chlorinated dibenzo-p-diqxin? v ' . .. 1 A A* - Q *, 1 K. * "' ' - ' ^ 1v ^ No, there is not/ ; '' <2-\ . ;"/ J. " L'-L ' Now, Mr. Park, the' memo. that I 've Just handed you dated January 23rd-- I haven't offered-- Have I offered that in evidence yet, do.you know? . ,1 ; , MR, SEIGFREIDi No.,;iJ J 'V ^; . *'`MR. CARR: -Offer .this document into evidence, if it please the Court. . Humber 1312. . . ... \ MR;:MUSGRAVE; Same objection,' ,Your Honor, as to these prior documents dealing'wlt& this January meeting on tetrathal.. jV- '/ ;- Y. ' Y - .* :THE COURT; Fine.. 11 11L incorporate them and I will Y V ; ' 1 ' \ . - Y Y , Y ,/ ' -- admit it over o b j e c t i o n . -' ' _ ;; t FORM, IL 24 B v* . 21 m7. 1 j MRi,'CARRs / And ask .-leave -to, pass,copies of 1312 to i ' > i-i ;:-V ` * - c 1s ; * 2 the jury , V V i-`A ?v- . K ,, . 3 THE G0UE.T: ' Leave' is 'g'rarited'. ' . , /: , ` y .- i - v ' v- . 4- ME. CARR: `Miss Clerk, would you also give the witmesis 5 Plaintiffs * Exhibit I297and 1299? \ vs i t >] , 6 Q (Hr/ Carr) 'How, Mr. Park/ the reason Dr,'Hair gave 7 : us for believing that thisinforination should be submitted to , 8 ' the EPA is the fact that .according to her calculations this 1 9^ 10 ' may be carcinogenic, isn't that correct, sir? ' * *. jc 'j ; rv y ^ cause cancer?. - ,, - .y v. ^ \ " That is, can , 11 .HR, HUSGBAVE:.v Your- Honor, may my objection, be 12 L continuing now that he is back on this document toy regarding ij - 13 this document with any. question of this, witness asking for him r- *. - . y 14` . to comment, to speculate, to'pass conjecture on the reasons 15 and the beliefs Of Dr. Hair in her memorndum. .The objection 16 being beyond that, that the.document can only speak for itself 17'- , * V- since this man was not the author of the document . 18,* THE COURTi It will be a continuing objection. 19 MR. MUSGRAVE;.1 Thank you. Your Honor. 20 . Hot, being a toxicologist, Hr. Carr,' 1 really don't 21 lm w ^ L -' . i ; ,y . ^ V -/; " 22" Q 'Mr. Park, a r e y o u again telling this Jury that you 23 ' served as anattorney for Monsanto for twenty years, served as 24, legal advisor to this committee since 1977 or 178 and that you 22 :do riot know that this memo1,-that Dr .^Hair gave you and gave to your committee or gave to Papagaorge, Farley, Jonannsen and Levinskas, if not to your committee certainly your committee got a copy of. it, .that >it shows that'she is concerned that this J substance may cause cancer?.. Are you telling us that, Mr, Park? A Mr/.,Carr,-- v O - / / ' t . , ', V i , Jr-' J'' - Q Are you teP.lT l1 iJnr .g' s .that , ,'Mr/ Park? .^ S il- * ;\ -' A - As you phrased the, question, no. 'L - s- ; r* *' 1 Lf /!* ^ Ti', ^*Sv. $ i V ! * ' f*.V.**- i . r , - - Q ' She was concraedyt^t'iths polychlorinated dibenzo- dioxin contaminated the level, of 250 parts per billion might , 1^ I .JY'J `rW. f *i \ ... causa cancer? * -That is and was her concern, isn't it, sir? It's impossible for me, to determine that based upon-- She makes one little hypothetical reference on lack of data on carcinogenicity* .I have no way of looking into her mind and determining what she h a d ::in her mind when she wrote that. ' 'l Q pid she use ,the .words "carcinogenicity data"?. Is .there any other .health risk .`that's even mentioned in this docu- 'ment other- than cancer? / ' ,-'Afc /None that I 've seen with atquick perusal here. Q : Now, Mr. Park, she's made these calculations because she is conceited as to1/compare the toxicity of these dioxins to. the toxicity of 2,3,7,8-TCDD, the most, toxic dioxin, isn't that correct/ sir? Shercompares this toxicity to dioxin, doesn't she, to 2,3,7*8 dioxin; doesn't she, sir?'. * * 'v . 1 A She does appear to be comparing different dioxins 2 right. 3 Q And you gave ua the other day rather we discovered 4 it in your files-- No I 'm sorry. After we brought up the 5 Hair memo pointing out that 250 parts per billion should be 6 reported you came forward with another document by Dr. 7 Levlnskas Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1299 did you not sir? 8 MR. MUSGRAVE; I believe you showed it to him Mr. 9 Carr in your examination of him. 10 MR. CARR; No. You handed it to me Counsel. It 11 was delivered to my office after 1 notified you all that I was 12 going to refer to the Nalr memo. I pointed out to the witness 13 two or three times that I'm going to refer to the January 24th 14 TSCA meeting. Then and only then did I get this document. 15 MR. MUSGRAVE: You delivered you showed this to the 16 witness in your first initial direct examination of the witness 17 is my point Mr. Carr. 18 MR. CARR: But it was delivered to me after I let you 19 know that I was going to use the Nalr memo. 20 Q (Mr. Carr) Now Mr. Park your attorney has delivers 21 to me in a separate set of papers the January 16th memo by 22 Dr. Levin8kas which according to you takes away from the 23 Nalr memo isn't that correct sir? You said I think your 24 words was that she was overruled by her boss Dr. Levlnskas. 1 Isn't that correct, sir? 2 . i . 1 . f. A It does appear that way,,yes. * 3 Q And that's what you said, didn't you, sir? 4 A If you say so, Mr. Carr. 5 Q How, this morning I'm delivered another document 6 relating to the same subject written by another toxicologist, 7 isn't that correct, sir? 8 A I don't know Mr. Long myself, Mr. Carr. 9 Q Do you know that he Is a toxicologist? Have you bees 10 told that by your attorneys or by God or by the devil or by 11 anybody that he is a toxicologist? 12 A No, I have not, Mr. Carr. 13 Q And you don't know that, sir? You haven't been told 14 that by anybody? 15 A That's correct. 16 Q Do these calculations appear to be, to your mind, sis 17 appear to be the calculations of a toxicologist? And I've 18 been told by your attorney this morning that Long is a toxi 19 cologist, and assuming that your attorney is representing 20 correctly to me, would you also assume that Long is a toxicol 21 ogist? 22 A All right. 23 Q Now, if I understand you correctly, this information 24 was never given to your TSCA committee. You've never seen it 1 before today, isn't that correct, sir? 2 A T h a t s correct; e 3 Q . And this memo, .does deal with tetrathsl, doesn11 it, 4 sir? 5 A Yes, it does. 6 Q And it does deal with polychlorinated dibenzo-p- ' 7 dioxin in your tetrathala, doesn't it, sir? '8 A Yes. 9 Q And it deals with the Nair memo to ievinskas, doesn't 10 it, sir?^ 11 A Yea, it does. 12 Q . And it deals with cancer, doesn't it, sir? Sir? 13 A Yest it does. |4 Q And all of these things are of importance to your 15 committee in determining whether or not you should report the 16 fact that dioxin is In one of Monsanto* s products to the EPA, 17 isn't that correct, sir? 18 A They would be considered by our medical experts. 19 Q Could you answer* that question, please, Mr. Park, 20 the way I posed it, the way I framed it, the way I intended 21 for. you to answer It? , 22 A 'As a non-toxicologist I would assume that these, 23 this information would be considered. 24 Q And as the legal advisor to this committee you know i the importance of dealing with .a full deck, giving all the 2 facta to those people giving all the facta to either the 3 judge or the jury or the committee that s going to make a 4 decision? You know that's important as an attorney don't you, 5 sir? 6 A A jrelevant information is to be considered at 7 these meetings. 8 Q And this information is Indeed relevant, is it not, 9 sir, the information contained in Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1312? 10 A I'm looking at the memo, Mr, Carr. 11 Q My question is, sir, it is relevant, isn't it, six? 12 A X do not know, Mr. Carr* Hot being a toxicologist. 13 1 see it Is addressed to the director of our medical department 14 It Is signed by an individual whom you say is a toxicologist* 15 Another toxicologist would be in a better position than X to 16 determine how relevant this information is* 17 Q Well, Dr. Roush is on this coranittee. This is a 18 memo directed to him dated one day before you meet and deter 19 mine whether or not this Is a substantial risk, isn't that' 20 correct, sir? 21 A That's correct.. And it would be-- . 22 Q It deals with the subject that your committee was 23 going to discuss. It talks'about cncer. It talks about the Hair memo. It talks about the Levinskas memo. You had the 1 Hair memo. You had the. Levinskec memo that took away from the 2 air memo. You did not have this. memo. And isn't this memo 3 relevant Hr. Park? 4 A We did have Dr. Roush himself at the meeting. 5 Q My question is, you did not have this memo, did you, 6 sir? 7 A I do not recall having this memorandum. 8 Q Is it in the file that you delivered to me yesterday 9 and I delivered to you in the courtroom? 10 A X do not recall it being in there. 11 Q Do you have that file? Would you look at your file 12 and sea if It's in there? 13 A Yes, 14 This is the wrong file. Let's see. We need the-- 15 MR. HASSIF: Rex. 16 HR. CARR: Would you mark this as an exhibit. 17 18 (At this time Plaintiffs' Exhibit Ho. 1313 was 19 marked for identification by the court reporter.) 20 21 Q (Hr. Carr) X hand you now what's been marked 22 Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1313 and ask you, first of all, if that 23 is your file? 24 A Yes, it is. 1 Q And would you look at It md see If this memo of 2 Timothy J. Long is contained therein? > 3 A No, it is not in the file. 4 Q And I take it so far as you know, and this was a 5 meeting that Just took place a few months ago, as far as you 6 know this memo was not read to the committee and Dr. Roush? 7 You have no-- You took notes at that meeting, didn't you, air 8 A Yes. 9 Q Did you make any reference to these findings of Dr. 10 Long or Mr. Long in your notes, sir? 11 A Let me look and see, Mr. Carr. 12 No, I see no reference to this memo. 13 . Q Now, this memo, first of all what Mr. Long does is 14 correct a mathematical error In the memo, makes it eighteen 15 femtograms rather than 1,3 femtograms in making the calcula 16 tions , but the ultimate end result calculation is not affected 17 by that error, isn't that correct, air? You don't have the 18 attachments. Let me-- May I have that again, Mr. Massif? 19 The one that has the attachments to it. 20 I'll hand you the memo as it was given to me, and in 21 order to shortcut some time you Bee it's referring to an error 22 that was noted on page two, and he says, "I have corrected 23 on the attached copy"? 24 A Yes. I Q And this is the attached copy of her memo, and there 2 la on page two the number eighteen put in place, eighteen 3 picograms rather than 1.8 plcograms? 4 A Yes. 5 Q But it's just a misprint in the calculations and 6 the end result remains the same, that Is. 12.800 femtograms 7 per kilogram per day, isrft that correct, sir? 8 A He didn't make any changes on that. 9 Q So the error that was corrected was simply a typo 10 graphical error and not a mathematical error, which did not 11 effect the end result, isn't that correct? 12 A That would b the way I would read it. 13 Q All right. And the end result, the end calculation 14 of Or. Nair's memo of January 14 remained the same, and 15 thereafter Hr. Long made various calculations, did he not, sir? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Based upon water criteria, CDC risk assessment and 18 the fish criteria for 2.3.7,8-TGDD? How. isn't that correct, 19 sir? 20 A That' s what it appears to be here. 21 Q And the fg there, that stands for femtogram, doss 22 it not, air? 23 A I believe so. 24 Q And a femtogram is so small that its size cannot even 't 1 bo imagined isn't that'correct, air?. 2 A I don't know. 3 Q You don't know that? 4 A No, .1 don't know that. X suspect it can be imagined. 5 Q Well, it goes from microgram, which is parts per 6 million, to nanograms, which is. parts per billion, to picogram, 7 which is parts per trillion, to femtegr&m, which is parts per 8 quadrillion. Now, X don't know about you, but X can't imagine 9 something so small as to be one quadrillionth of a gram,' and 10 that's what it is, one quadrillionth,of a gram, isn't that 1! correct, sir? 12 A I leave that up to our toxicologists and analytical 13 chemists, Mr. Carr. . If you say so, X will accept it. 14 Q Again, Mr. Park, you have been reading these document! 15 for twenty years, or strike that. At least since 1977. These 16 people, toxicologists refer to femtograms per gram or femtogrami 17 per kilogram. You know what they mean, sir, and X don't intend 18 to get into fencing with you to demonstrate that you do know. 19 MR. MBSGRAVE: Well, I object to that then if it's 20 not a question. It's a statement by counsel and it's argumen 21 tative, and X request that it be stricken and the jury instruct 22 to disregard It. 23 THE COURTi Overruled. 24 Q (Mr. Carr) Now, Mr. Park, using the criteria, Mr. ^ , , ' ! , I f " . , . t ;V J v ->.Y -r^-" \ - 31 r^: Long cosea up with a conclusi o u t h a t *the virtually safe doses are similar using the E P A a n d the CDC criteria, does he not, si^? * r': : ;v; .* ' / ' A Hr, Carr, I'm really not qualified to interpret this , document. ' ^ ^ ^ : r./v*;-' '' * ! * as * Q .Can you Interpret the words, "As can be seen"? Second page, Mr* Park. D o y o u know what those words mean, sir? A J Yea, Hr. Carr,si, do./' .-V "" X Q And .dp you know what the words in the category he* s using, virtually safe doses? ft ^ / A I have no idea what he means.by that, N Q YOu have no Idea, what the words .virtually safe doses mean? Jjo you know what the word virtually means/ sir? ,, A / : I know what the individual words mean, Mr, Carr. I have .no idea what a toxicologist means when he puts those '* Jv>* ^ J.- words in quotes like that.; i Q. : The,toxicologist is putting these words in quotes because that's the same words used by Dr.'Nalr. Same words that sheused in her memo /of January 14th, 1985. That' s the reason they're in quotes and you know that. > HR* H U S G R A V E W e l l , Z object to that. Your Honor, as A statement of counsel. . It's not even a question; end I request that the jury be instructed^to disregard and it be.stricken, * 7 i " MR, CARR: Your Honor, the witness has for days been making this coiirtropm procedure a mockery by hie refusal to 1 , .-Vv- .' .. .. ;/> ivvi i '-.s- 'jI''-.//" ** K v" - ''V f '* J ' i 'i l , 32- i -- r H ^ v '`/vV>y. ^rvr'~ . admit that.he understands, the meaning of the English language, and I must confess, that X!m getting impatient with it and IQm. 3' ' perhaps getting short with the *witness when I shouldn't be. - 4 But it astounds me that a man that *a gone through law school . 5 that can hold this responsible position that he holds doesn't 6 know what virtually safe dose-means when used by a toxicologist ; 7 after his years of experience. / / / ,,/v / '8* WITNESS: That* .unfair, Mr*.Carr../:/--" 9 MR. MUSGRAVE: ' Just a moment* Just a moment. Just a 10 moment* I again object. That is.a speech by counsel. It's * 11 totally uncalled for. I request that the Court strike it from . 12 the record end instruct the jury to disregard it. / 13 LTHE COURT: Overruled. 1 think it was a proper ; 14.; response to, your objection. Your objection is overruled. I :.is" think it Is proper cross examination within the context of this ' 16 ' examination/ -J ' ;; /t- / J* //"' , . 17 - You mayproceed* Mr. Garr. .Y ' 1 18 ` A Mr. Carr,-- . // ., t ' , /<> . `. 1 9 ', 20 Q * Mr. Park, If you refer to Plaintiffs' Exhibit 12-- ' .*j.-, //MR.MUSGRAVEt Are;you going t o l e t the witness 21 / 22 / 23 . in r - / 24 'respond to your ^speech, Mr. Carr? ; THE COURT: You gentlemen were arguing aii objection and the witness does ,not have the standing to respond to an argument over an objection. _/ *V/* BAYONNE. N .j. 07002 FORM IL 24 D i. 1 ,r/ A 3 .. . ,, 'f-,<r v '*(/ * ; *, .:V -` `, ' ", ; , .-*,, " p r;/,X/^VfV/'l"'y11li.'%v 1 1 - 1 , _ *" k * ' r ' .- '* , I , Mr. Carr, you may proceed with your interrogation. . 33* - 2` Q (Hr, Carr) To help you, Mr. Park, please refer to Plaintiffs* Exhibit 1296,;Dr. 'Nair'svmamo of January 14th, ` 4 1985. ' ' = ;- 5 A ILhave it, Mr. Carr,. \ 6 - Q And refer to the last paragraph on the second page, ' 7 / Mr. Park. She eaya, the virtually safe dose for one in a '8 1 million cancer risks, doesn't she, sir? . '9 ' A ` / Yes,, he does/ ^ . J>/ " 'v 1 0 . q ; So. now do you /understand what the words virtually > 11 safe dose /means, sir, as used ,by the toxicologist? Xt means h , that dose which they believe will only cause one case of cancer 13- In a million. That's their definition of a virtually safe dose 14 is:'., j- . 16 just one out of-a million going to die from cancer? 1 ' `J V ( 1^ ^^ T , fc; * 1 ^ 1 'it " 1 - "1 ; A / Okay, I see that use;in this sentence,'Mr. Carr; - Q. -And as the amount is increasedbso will the number of 17 / persons that die from cancer increase. You know that, too, is ; don't you, air? / " ': / - . ; \ 1; 19 - y ''MR. MUSGRAVE 1 Object, Your- Honor. ; Calls for con ` 2 0 . clusion, speculation. The-witness Is not qualified-as an aspar): 21 in that area to so testify on this topic. ,, 22' _ THE COURT:. Overruled. , \ " - 23 ME. MUSGRAVE t May my objection be a continuing . 24 * objection based upon- his qualifications to state the conclusion^ \ ,J M3* OAYONNC, N.J, r - x *f1 ^//" /.V^/ >> . -i l*? (i j ' , \ , \<_ 34 /o .;aLtossicologica! or epidemiological'nature or medical matura ;lth jrgard'- tp\this;\doctilaiit:; ' ///' V'J. 3/ .f THE GOURT: The ;;objection is ;overruled, It will-he AVA noted as a 'continuing objection to -this line,of questioning- ^ :5- ; , : 'V -you;:'4 < /. " X 4 r;V >. X, j , -, ,. . - - ^ ^ y- r j * ,(>i,ii " . - r1` . , ,- '/ 6 r:-*.- Q. 1 (Hr; Carr). I ou 'pt. out something that's 2/000 1 " \ "i / j;: - times more powerful than /the..:virtt&lfy safe dose, you know , that according to D r H a i r that1s. going to be 2,000 case of r // 9/ ` 10; M ''l2/ / ?13 .cancer obtl.of a million;. I you; put but something that 'e - ''. 1 \ j - --, ;1V'vv i 'y.>' 'ko` ``t.', 'L: ^ 20,000 times m o r e p o t e n t / y o u k n o w that1sgoing t o b e 20,000 V,/ _ //;/'. //. : ;'//'V, " ' - case* of caxicer out of a million .according- to'1)r; ,Kir*s mmo/ r.^ // A yy./ i ^ `r You laiow tbafcj'don^^t ypu,;alr? Z / / ' / '- ' V /'// " '/ '/ / - X /\. . ri ' X' ;T 1;.// > .A ^ X^I' d o n ^ know -thet, Kr. Carr;/ v.*; 'i 14; Q .,, ;Gan you ,calculate . t h a t / Park, with ypia: education i. i -i is/ ^background? / >'SV ,t - v-;-V 1 '-7": ' \ , ,v V' 16V" A ;.fI don't know that .that -would be an appropriate f '* '/' -,Xv calculation,.lir, "crr'.`:- ^ /r-;'. ; (i/'/;: ;' ` 8>- .T- ' .Q"; VtYpu don't tow that? . ^ fr *. .19 J``20 '>,.;:J -j -i'rv'- > . 'i*, . - \ - \1'"" Jif ijMT-v tT ;v - ./ 1 -- rr ^ . '. *r`' -,A- wi-/ f1-'".^-' , 'Si '! 1.k ` *- ''! . ' . - r . r-yf - ;'-V>i V r-s/ ,<'}, .. `' ' 1 .Q . If a virtually safe dose isvonly 'going to cause one pencad co `V y* : 1 Vi''''''' ' -/ `; r 21 ' t - *T ^ .`j" * ^ ^ -*" , At*1 k ,/ * ; . * 'case of canterFOt,hf 'a-tllipnv;fisn*t a aimpl^ calculation ,* - r. , " : S^t.f 4..-W.V' ' t u r P i ' - i k 1* * A - j1 ri V ` h - r * 3* v r /''22\ t i> J\ J ^ - rV , ' v-s\f' 4 X.T t* ^ ^ ' -p ' * to .just'multiply^ that'b^ whatever factor you've increased the / 23 / ^virtually safe dPseryhyZ/Hri --ark?;-. ." {* " -V' ,/ ' ."24: 1 '*. 1 -'''A-' : '*-V ' ,r-L 1 t' 1*'* * .,; A. ; ;I,.aay -that, may;or ma^ not be an appropriate way of/* ^ fJ 1r * *A *9i* r '* i(1i*,ll`p' i Tk ^"'1' :t t j i 1 , w. is / 1 going at it, Mr. Carr. There may not be a straight line 2 relationship. 3 Q Oh. Do you know that there is not a straight line 4 relationship, sir? 5 A No. Nor that there is. 6 Q And you simply have to rely upon the expertise of 7 this toxicologist who tells you that the, the dioxin that you'r 8 sending out with this tetrathal exceeds the virtually safe dose 9 by a factor of a thousand. You do understand what that says, 10 don't you, sir? 11 A I rely on all of our toxicologists, Mr. Carr. 12 Q Don't you understand that she is communicating to you 13 that this product going out may cause 1,000 times more cancer 14 than the virtually safe dose? 15 A No. 16 MR. MUSGRAVE: Object. That's a mlscharacterlzatlon 17 of the document and an attempt to do so. That's not what the 18 document says. 19 THE COURT: Overruled. 20 Q (Mr. Carr) Now, back to Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1312, 21 if you would, sir, where we got hung up on the use of the words 22 virtually safe dose on the second page. Mr. Long says, does he 23 not, that, "The virtually safe doses are similar using both 24 the EPA and the CDC criteria?" 1 ;z. '` .J "V- 36 1 ,, A That's what he :says. ^ 2 ' 1 .Q But that was'related; to,,the-?FDA criteria for eating 3' 4 ': fish that it[s drastically different? j. JH' t 'lb , ^^ * A Yes. ` ' v 1, '5'' Q . .So;that would'suggest that either the EPA and the 6 CDC is wrong, are wrong, or the FDA fish criteria is wrong, 7/ isn't- that correct, sir? : vV;L\ ' 8- ' A 9 wrong. Mr. Carr, I'm not`qualified, to say either"one is -1 < '- j ^r ' `^ r ' .- ' ' .. 10 Q -I'm not asking you to say that, sir..' I'm asking you 11 the plain meaning of this, statement. 1 ; .. . , k4 12 A I'm not qualified to interpret a statement.by a i 13 toxicologist1 He says that therresults are drastically differ 14 , ent. - `` ' ; r\.t ^ v` ` 1S. Q Mr. Park, again, you are, required and every time you 16 . serve on that committee and .cast, a vote, youVe required to 17 - use your judgment and\to interpret these documents. These 18 ; documents are directed to you. Not this-particular one, but 19 others are. , isn't that collect, sir? And do you have to be a 20 -. toxicologist to-r - .J r , * L- 21 A . You said, this document was-directed to me, Mr. Carr. 22 Q - Not this one; Mr. .Park," but1others like it. .And you 23 review these-documents. ..You reviewed the Nair memo at your 24 : meeting *vyou revie^edA;the1.Leyinskas memo.at your,meeting, but ' t "' I'ZAlp f'i?'"'.# ,}; ,'d iV ...:. - ' - .1 >'. BAYO N N E. N .J. 01002 FOftM IL . 24 B `V ' *; ;;,,, .jrO'V.ii`X `f: \,hV' \ ^ 1`'L- ^ v f r. 37 '- 1 you did not review thioone'at your meetlng. How, Mr. Park " ,2 clearly you do not have to beatoxicologist to understand, ' 3. you don't even have to be, have any expertice in toxicology J ' 4-: All you have to be able to ;do is to read and understand the Ti -, 5 hglieV language,. 'You Vire'not ^required to beatoxicologist to '6 understand,the meaning of that sentence, r.ien',t;that: correct * si::? \ A ' I .think he meant exactly what he eaidhere. , ' -r,8 Q And what h e ,s sying i8 that theaejthree criteria j ''9 ar different?- 11 ..::V - '. :^;v 10 A. ; Drastically different. ; 11 Q Tv70 put the safe dose mueh lower and one ^puts tho FBA 12 safe dose much higher, Isn't that what.he "is, saying? ' ' " Ti. _. ; ,-*a vx X t; , J3 , ./ ' A That appears to be hicalcult ion. . V * ^ 1 '14 v Q : How,: you can t ,have all three criteria'being1right.; -, 15 if they're In conflict, can you, 'sir? your'logic tells yoi .. . ;1,6 rz' that, doesn't it, sir? If. you've! got two that says one thing l_ h4 '^ 1 I. ' - i_ " '* `mS J -> ^f ^ "A^ - ''V1' -, \ J "l >- -H. , '" ',J * F *. -f . Land one that says the opposite, either two have to be wrong or ' .18 ^ i3` 9' the one waxmgy;^6n^t\^at^Correct, sir? logic tell, you.that, sir?- Doesn't your _fl. 4' *"'5 'f t >V ' t 20; , A ; Mr..Carr, these are calculations by a toxicologist. : 1. v ; 22 - : J-'' Q ^ !i x ^ t .% ^ t 1 : ^ lf* 1 ,1' L'** - ,,/ ^ ^^ A Hoi not necessarily, so, Mr, Carr. . "v ' ^^ ^ ^- ? -, ? r , -.23 *1.24 Q 'XVm sayingAa .I m trying ;to ^an_s_weSrL'y~our..question liera. Not y . . ! `` 7---*- `4' V ^ i ,^-v il if v:JV\4\v'/.'Z-"' % ' - ',*r :->\ y , * *1 L - V -V- t;\ *V 38 1 necessarily so at all. It depends upon the content in which th(ji '- \v -* i,, *' >. -. . 1 , . ' 2-/ calculations are made and. in which the * the limits if that* a ' ,, * 3 what they are, proposed are established by these/three different 4^ ' `agencies ware developed. ;-;f. v * J_ I:` s ; Q You don't understand^this toxicologist to be saying 6-/ that the EPA and DC are, in agreement as to what is a virtually 7 safe dose? / Do you understand thle 'document as saying that, sir^ 8* A No*. I do not, Hr. Garr; \ ' 9 ' , Q You can't Qee that, MAs can be seenthevirtually 10 11... 12 - Vafe doses, re similar/using th EPA and CDC criteria?" - , ' * i. * .^ \ ~ ~' 3* A i's "Are, similar." ^ ^( * r '* - 'V1 . 1 > o- -^ u^:. ^F t '- Q Doesn't that communicate to you that they're in 1 13 agreement; Hr.. Park? - - . ; / 14 /, NO, it doesn't*:ftr Carr.,/; 15 v Q , What does the word, similar mean to you* Hr. Park? 16 Similar means the same or very nearly the same, doesn't it? 17' MR. MUSGRAVE: .Just moment, Hr. Carr. , You asked BAYONNE, 18. him what it means to him#1now will you let him answer the 19 -, question before you pose another, one or .before you make a speech? ' * 1--S^ 20 , ,May I request^ / < ^^ * 21 - . MR,.. CARR: I'm afraid I might get from him an answer 22. that he doesn't.know.that several is-- 23 MR; M U S GFAVE: Well, don *t care what youte afraid *s ; T:' J"`1' ' ; i' * 24 -- ; " ; -Y i :v - 'e1'-, . -> - * of, Hr. Carr.- When yu. posa'a, questionati witness is entitled * ./ / < i r *1 t '*39 ,1 to answer it. '2 ' J1 .3 ; THE COURT: All r i g h t G e n t l e m e n . Gentlemen, the ^ v "^ r 1 , * - I r * , 1 question's been posed; M r . ;Park( please answer the question* 4 A Your Honor, I'm sorry. Would you repeat the question 5 please? 'v > ,`X- ; L" 'k. ' 1. "V. k'"r 1 6 Q /(Mr. Carr) Bo you taowwhat. the word similar means? T 8 ' 9 A Yes. I started to answer and you interrupted me. . , *- ,- . - '- . . ,, I understand the word in a Webster'dictionary context. J 'v ^ mT .; ' \l . '\ ~ j ", . -^ ^ `J ** L Q ,, And it means the same ox nearly the same, doesn't it? " 10 - if V- - -T , 1 * ' ' >- *' ,''J A ' Ho, it doesn't'mean'.the same. ,* . " IJ , ' Am 11 ; Q- It means?the same or nearly the same, doesn't it, sir)? .12 A Wo*, ;Mr.'Carr.;1 13 " Q _ It doesn't mean-that,, sir? What does it mean then 14. ..15:v in your Judgment? '. A Something that Is similar, to something" else in a 16. different context. In a Webster dictionary context," in my 17 - opinion, would be something that had some similar characteris B 4 Y 0 N K E . If.J, 18 tics to something else., ,- 19 Q Now, Mr. Park, you know.from long study you can't use 20 the word you are defining in defining the word. You just got 21 ; through using the word similar in defining the-word similar. . 22 You can't dp that. Now, please define the word similar for me 23 without using the -word' similar / Willvyou accept the definition r 24 1 ' V ;\': u /'; 5 ^ -\ that similar means nearly the same, alike, close to identical? r 1 " ^' * . . ' 1 r 1 `J1 -h.l' .t*', '-i " , r! ; -`i . i. 1' , . ^ '" 40 1 . A I will accept that." X.have a little, difficulty, Mr. ' 2 Carr, because again-- ;V/, '/' '/. / \ r, 3^ Q Hr., Park/ let's not go to the next problem.. I can 4. only solve one. problem at a time with you* If you bring in 5 another one before we solve the last, one, we' ll never get throu^:h. . .. 6 How, you do understand th word similar to be as I've '7-, stated it, don*t you,^ sir? ;Don't you, sir? 1 8 A. - I guess .1 do not understand the. word similar to be, .'' \ r' .\ ' , -* ` '* : ? ; necessarily to mean very nearly th-same. ' ,-ir fc=' 10 ! 'H Q ,L Well, then tell ma how you would differ with; that r .. " 1 1- i t j- ' ^J definition.. t - ' /V -,:S'.7 i-.., V;f `"12 A - Obviously something that's.similar, something differs BAYNNC. h .J, 13 14 15 t 16 - 17 --.18 ` 19 20 21 22 " 23. 24. from something .else because they are not the same. Q Well you're still using the word similar, in defining it. Please tell me what, your understanding, of the word similar is. Two twins are similar, aren't' they, sir?. They're not the .same, but they are similar. 'They; are close to the same. A They could be identical I. A brother and sister could v L L, -k ^ ' i ' > i be similar. " ; .v -/ v - .Q. .Indeed they could, but they won' t* be the same. ;A That's right. /; -, -- Q So we do understand what/it means . It-means they, are 1- f'J 'rt \ ,, t`V;l> i ' ' - 1" 1" ' } >* j ; > * ^ ' j ' [ , j.- if\ v * " close to the same/'? hut/not the; same, and you do understand what that sentence, 4 means?. ' 'J % V`//*- t"v\ .,' v-'xX.*vy. "i. ' t.- ;- " ( * -t v .' 1* * ; 'A \ i ' ' ' t I 41 \ A I would accept that definition, Hr. Carr. \ ' ' 2 _ ` -- - . V- - 3 '' Q So the CDC and the E P A ,criteria ere close to the sams aren't they, air? / ^ ; ' '4 ^ . 5. A. I'm not going^to accept that. Q Now,. Hr, Park, ,you just got through saying that you ' 6 J would accept that definition .o similar. Now,, you can't back !'-l ' ; V 7* off from that,; Hr. Park, You-Just got through saying that this ?. i ,'9> means that the EPA and. the CEO are very nearly the same. '' *r ' - i ' *P. - _ Park, _you can *t 'do't h i s ` -.v* ; . 4 -- . Mr..' ' 10 ' Your Honor, again, I:hesitate-to ask the Court to hold bin 11 in contempt, but I think he is clearly contemptuous of the 12 ' i process we are going through here. - ; / 13: THE COURT: Gentlemen;' could I see you up at the 14 ' ' V" ` _ v I .' ' bench for a minute, please? <_ *< ' * .'1 1S i s -- |Z ^ -.16" 'o . ONroO* 17 i. . h . : u Z ' - ,, f: ;o / ` M 9 a 6 aoz *.;! 20 ; - ' i r ' 21 j (The following proceedings were had at the bench out side the hearing of the Jury:) \ s .` THE COURT: I've'never held a lawyer in contempt 1 V. ^ " j t * ' ^. ,^ ^. r- 1 ^ ( J - J .> , - " before and he's about half-an-inch away from it.; We're going to take a five-minute recess. Go talk to your client and tell him .how close; he is. Now, just wait a second and listen to me, I've listened to this'evasion, this refusal to answer and ` 522 refusal to follow ,iay';direct orders for as-Tong as I'm going to. -23 -- *'/r ' -1 ,j ^ '-,XI*'!f*t1 . i.V* ,,/^;'`V. -`'v i "-V f This man is;admitted in two states, I know that he would be <1 rw - ` ' 24 \ r `\ *'r fxJ` . /> /> >t\ `-\/;. , ..t held in contempt-in ^lisspuri.';>T'm admitted, there, too, and I < r k 4 1 _ ''J , ^ . "C. - f , -- i/: ' < V ^ -i- 42 know that. Take this man into, one of-the conference rooms and explain some of the facts of life to testifying in a courtroom and following the judge*s orders. ;You have shown yourseIf to , be a competent, responsible'attorney in this trial and I would trust you to advise M eu .1 think you better advise him. ' , MR* HUSGEAVEi Well, :m I-speak, Your.Honor? I'm a little confused.as to wHat- this.man has said in this courtroom in response to Mr. Carr's questions, with, regard to what similar means ,to him or in a particular context of this document that1 resulted in this Court feeling that he. was very close to being held in contempt. So with all due respect to the. Court, I wouX<ji V* i ^" * " ` 1 r \* * m * ' " 1 "F m 1' J like the Court to explain to me whatywittr regard* to this series of questions-- - _. V v THE COURT : 1 The.record is1clear when he says one thin$ and turns around and denies it that it is one o f .e:very long series of saying one thing, then switching to another, which shows a clear pattern of refusal!to answer, evasion and delay. .MR. MUSGRAVi Okay." f` :v ' *: THE COURT:. That, is the answer since you want it on the record. That is as clear and graphic as it can be, a n d 4the record is even clearer. He'll take a.short recess. Talk to .your-.- , y or;fii r- * ' o - / V ", -h; A * V-V i'%. '' HR. MUSGRAVv*E :'r-jTha4"t1* Is the, efx*.t"en-'ti.of >the explanation '- * :/7 -A\*Y/ji 7, that the Gourt will. give meV at this time? - ' - .v-}'':,T'vr - F* -, 3* * i - ?) vpi . 1 ' ' 'r * J |lb^ THE COUKT / I .that summarizes everything. (Th following proceedings were had within the hear ,i f r - ing of "the jury*)-. THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, we are going to tak$ a very short -recess and then resume .with testimony. I-would remind you now, and this will .go for any other breaks that w take in these proceedings, that you are1not to discuss this matter among yourselves, with anyone outside the jury panel,: or as of yet form any opinions or conclusions about the matters on trial.;:, :r . a:--.. '.'./_ \ Court*svin recess. - ,, l-'/ ; .J ' 1 'V. 'f'"'/ >' /" ` '`r - V OJherupon a brief recess was had.) - ,r; . -\ .. J THE .COURT: 'Okay. / Mr.'Carr. . . , v / - - k' MR. CARR: Yes, Your Honor. . -- .* . - fc- L v , Q (Mr. Carr) Mow, Mr/ Park, the toxicologist long aftex saying that the EPA and the CPC criteria are similar but drastically different from the :FPA's -criteria; he says one additional thing about that, quote If one /compares the calcu ' " -r7., - i.-:V< .'r*-'-. -.. *-, J'/ \- . '! **\i . *. . .1 j . * . L J. I. -v." . ,, , \ _ latedY M 4* a j} dIai1l*y exposure'toa i c w ^ M iw ii^ . 4 ^ ' PCDD* sm inJ v ' tetraa4t*1h% ma1l, 11O2,O80A0 femtograms per kilogram per day,Twiththese numbers the' calculated PCDD calculation exceeds all of/these values." Do you/see that,, sir? 'r. f " \i ^ 1/ A Yes, X do. ' - "-- \ 'v .` ,' ' `2. Q And all,,of:tfcee TOluesyt^-`l^ng la. referring to Is. ^ 3' the EPA, the CBC and the FDA values',.isn'1 that-correct, sir? r 4 A That's correct. .. ^ ./ ' 5, Q Now, what.,this meansthen is that- th exposure to the , ^ . ,,6 worker to th tetrathal is going to have greater'Exposure to , 7 \ dioxin than if they drank the water posed by th EPA or had the ` .. 8 -, CDC risk assessment for 2,3,7,8 exposure or ate fish that con '` ; 9 tained 25 parts per,trillion./isn't that,correct, sir? ' 10 A , That was based>'upori her calculations, yes. -, / ' '\\\ Q And those calculations coniare this way: The, water , ii ' criteria Is ,.37 femtograms. . 12 ` That is not even one femtogram. 13 but a little over a third of a femtogram per kilogram per day 14 versus 12,800 femtograms/ isn't.that correct, sir? The exposure . 4 * - ,, `*^.*5v.*-; to the dioxin in^the tetrathal.would be 25,000 times, 30,000 F O R M 1L 1/ times greater than what the P says is.safe, isn't.that correct SOO - 17/' sir? Better than 30,000 times greater?.. 18 ' kJ . Z. J j -f ! " ^V 04 / A . It would divide* those numbers out about that way.' Q ^ow,.this toxicologist is telling you that this : 0 , *. ,u . t * .20 1" 21 tetrathal is going to expose somebody to the. risk 30,000 times -, "22 f ;U > ' . 23 - :v '24 ' r Now, that means, - -* `' if ,,this " . .r ^ * ^ criteria 1 ^ J* h \ i"Vsi- equivalent, i **-'_** ^ * there's, going ' * t J t' * **K J n * V * - t , J * /V 1 , * f * ' l ^ " W , 1 v . : J } .h-z "l,. A * ' 1 + \ f, . v^ ^ \ ^^ 1 ^ ^ *, ^ -- -*- * - , ^ - u* to be 30,000 cases of cancer if this is equivalent? HR. MUSGRAVE: .i-Jhich%.questipn"are you asking him, Mr. - '*'/' . ' \,p \- i V^ \ ; -- * ^ ** 45 Carr? - Q ' * :'-V; , ,. ", s r ` '", ^ i-. j Isn't that correct/; sir? V -I , MR* MUSGRAVE : Well,, I object to* It. it's a multiple question. He first says this -toxicologist is telling you some thing, then he goes n and -makes another statement. ' .- ' 1 1 \'l ^ . . ' " ^ ^ . m -SjS*.'(. ' -*. multiple question, Your Honor. . k It's a _ * MR. CARR: Well, maybe, I can rephrase It. - THE COURT: 'Okay.;.: `-Y*; MR. CARR: Ien't -this toxicologist saying that this ' dose is 30,000 times what th EPA has said is safe level of feratogram per kilogram; per day? i ' . v J: A Mr. Long ^does not say that;/ Mr,. Crr.` ^ ' ' > Q Isn't that what these^calculations mean, Mr. Park? . A They can be divided out. He simply says theJcalcu lated PCDD exposure exceeds all these; numbers. / .^ . Q ' Mir. Park, I'm directing your attention now to the numbers to determine just what the numbers mean in.,real life figures. The 12,800 fexatograms per kilogram per day, is over 30,000 times .higher than what the"EPA sets as a safe standard, virtually safe dose; isn't;that;correct, s i r ? / ` " . 1 t V>*\' "i- (, \I /` , ^; i'fl + ' * ', v ^1 ; . V A ` As 'expressed 'by Mr. Long! " > " * 'w s _\_ v Q :,As- expressed;hy 'MrV; Long; in `this''document? . ... -, ? * -V C -\'- jA -Yes. J ^ ' L ' V -v* -- t * . :'^ !\; \ Q And if Mr'. Long Is .'correct in; thisvdocument and if *46 i, Dr. Hair is correct In her document, this means that.the cancer^ 2/~ that will result from it will be 30,000 times greater than if 3 *- the document,1if the people were not exposed to it? r ,4 '* A I don't know that. V : - '5 >6 Q I know you don't.know that, Mr* Parkland I'm not 3 j 'i ' *1 r v '"-i - - **, ' 1 __ ( asking you to know that for a certainty,, but that' s,what these ' 7-' calculations ."and these /assessments a d d u p to if true, isn' t * 8 1 that correct, sir? * '! t .r 9 . A The exposures'would be much higher. .'Now, .what that' 10 would mean in terms of increased cancer risk, I simply do not 1 1 ~* 1 m * ' -4. ^ * t-,- - ' - ' ^ \' r* H . know. J /' ,. ; . a' V'..' 12. Q Well, they describe virtually same dos-as one case li - in a million; virtually safe dose is that dose that will onl 14 . causa, only, 'and if you're that one. person in a million then 15 \ it' 0 not at;all safe, b u t `it will only cause one case of cancer 16^. in a million. That's their definition of virtually, safe dose, C> . '. < ` r , *, ~ i* 17 and we went through that, Mr, Park. T; 18; MR./ MUSGRAVEu Just a moment.. I object to that. - -; 1. 1 j- L L 19 That's their? Are you talking about all of these, Mr, Carr, or ;'v.V" - yV;. i --f.fi 20 " 1just one of these?; ; Which ^calculation are you-talking about, ! './'<* ;; '\ xU*" .V"" \ r . 21 sir, because" X don't see that in these other calculations as 22 1 ''4 v* 3 1 !i` r )/*^-^" -'-<v>*,.*.**, io'<-`ff-;>' ii'YZ^,y being referenced to ,zvirtually safe> dose. ^In-fact, one of *r 1 * k '23 - them talks--. > V. 1 .. 24 Q ..(Mr* Carr) ;Mr/ Park, you understand, however, the-- 47 1 * 2. THE-COURT: Objection isloverruled. ,, ''s. ' ' s- " ' ''" - e `* "- " " ' > ` `* 8. ^ f ' L 1- ," Q -rthat a virtually ,safe dose is talking about one v - 3 case of cancer in a million? Ypu do understand that, don't 4 you, Mr. Par, that .that's; wHt/they'-re talking about? 5 A- Apparently Dr1 Nair is using what is apparently a . -* >. ^ 6 Canadian criteria here/-which 1"" . ' 7 ' Q And that ,is one case cf cancer in a millionT ; 8 *' A In a million, which .calculated, I guess,, theoretically 9 out to be this number. ^. 10 , " Q I understand that'; Mr. Park, but now I'ir trying to. i 4,, , p ,v * *f \,, U 1 apply Mr. hong's calculations' and,using the sameworde virtually \r: sfe doses. "We're talking "about 30,000 times, greater risk of J U cancer, aren't we, sir, if these documents are true, If Mr. 14 Long's calculations-are correct? *15 A Mr. Carr / in my opinion'that's an entirely different " y' ' 16 thing. The numbers .are considerebly different.. I .agree" with ^ 17 that. The exposure would be much different. . I.will hot agree- 18' / 19 . Q I'm not quarreling with that. All I'm directing your 7" ^ -- Js ^` _ attention to is that Mt. vLong is. pointing put ^to you that this PENCAD C 0 ,\ BAYONNE. N .J. 07 002 FORM IL 24 B L;20 risk, if, th e ^ o s r -i ^piyalen t / n d ^ of course, that's a 21 given, if the exposure is-equivalent; if they're going to take 22 ' V-' ,\ , in that, if they're going t-work in this dust, if they're r J 23 i f' >i going to be exposed tov;thisVproduct talkingJabout that exposure 24 and this calculation by...Mr. Long shows, that it's 30,000 times 48 t' _L`-, ' ^1 '2 : \ 3 greater than a virt^ll. safe' dose, 'isn't that correct, sir? Those other.things. beings equal, sir? , ^. r A Mr; Carr, the exposures can't be equivalent, because " ---43 w e 're talking about different-substances. ; -5 .Q I said if, the'exposures; are, equivalent, asstime that - .. 6 the toxicologists are assuming.iri this document and th exposures : \ f'7 . .8' '79 ' 10 II - - . .12 - '13' S- 14 are equivalent. That'S:,the reason they put it down. They're : comparing those exposures; and-they're saying that the CDC and , __ '\ ^ ' - "' ^ - ;-* ' C * %" ' 4 * `r "r the PA virtually safe calculation is the same. Mow,' Mr. Park, let's not fence about this. You know the context, in which I'm asking -these questions. And isn Vt "it ^that 'this .toxicologist is saying that it's aJ30,000-time greater risk of cancer? A ''No, Mr. Carr;- In m,.opinion he is not. Q Well, let's back up .a bit. : Is the-- . Does the toxi Jt .J T*N 3 N N O A V 0 1 ' 15 :16 '7 V '18 .31? > 20 ` ;21 ' 22 -'.a ;23 - 24 cologist, sy: that th Virtuallysafe'dose describing in the virtually'safe dose for th :EPA calcultion? ^ MR. MSGPAVE! ;Is that a question? :. / `V1 MR. \CARR: Yes." . >. ^ v ;' ^ ; As I read Whatrhe1hasJ;here,- he~>saysthat the EPA limit for TDD in water, okay* I guess consumed per day by a - - - -ffO- /' `V-r ' man would,be Q. 37 femtograms per;;kilogram ;per day. Q And then on the next page that dose is described as, ' ' r 'j >r-i-J% - : i a J O'-'i ;' ' '. f,The virtually safe dose," Isn't it, sir? A`- That'1a the term he uses,' yes. ,; ' :*.$* . ;r `Jx'- ' ,r ;*>-i. *.v`*-*'* v,, "1 ' 3" c/1-// ..*, ' ' J' v\ ' L -. - 49 Q Yes. Andyirtually safe dose, he's referring to, he got that, we, showed;that "from thHair memo/ and he refers L ` -L ' _ ' ' ;>' 1 ' t t/ ' r l' u to it in the.first paragraph; "calculated by R. S. Nalr was : 1 p J, ' f^ ,1 ^ ^ *. ;' ;.- '** the virtually safe.doses; determined'by the EPA, CDG and FDA."/ 'He's using the same words1just, th same way that/Dr. Hair used those words, isn't h air? ;r3 :/. / KR. MUSGRAVE: May iay objection to this question now go that he is asking the witness" to go into th minds of both Dr. Hair and Hr; Long to 'speculate^ and conjecture, as to how either one of them used thse words. - y -,/ a. / MR.' CARR i . No .; Your Honor , what 1 1nr asking is that the witness' take the evidence in front of him and use that Intelligence that he hhsyand the education that he has end ' ...tell us that it's n o t 'true-that a reasonable reading of these documents would .show.,that' Mr.; Long, ;Dr. .Hair are/talking, about the same thing. / -v` -,. > . J';* ; .. , .MR. ;MUSGRAVE : /t7ell^. my objection stands, Your Honor. .THE COURT: rObjection!s; overruled. > '\ ,L . ` _ * *, f *v*;i V y-.' Vyv .*;. h Hi-"r.,\V" rf * S . ; '.` V - "\ ' yR.. USGPAVE^--- ^ ' :: / `, /From.my roading', }fe.V'Carrt;.:'-donot knew.' I see that J" ' O'p 'I.` . ' j f i-t . ` ' ' p. J - . ...- .. ,/> jp> v . \r, ^ ir r ' i - " - .v they do use the same words, virtually safe doser but X do not "- - ':> : 7,;"- r'^YhiT - v p *`-v-' - know that ;they.are using that, term; itrthe' same way. " ," Q 'Well , doesn *t. Long tell you that he is, i n the -very, first paragraph, .the following is comparison of the potential -A* exposure of workers t P C D D i n tetrthalas calculated by R. S. ; 2 i,'\Nair with the;; 'Virtually safe.doses determinedby CDC, FDA .3':' and the EP for 2,3,7*8-TfcDD?V Isn' t. Long connecting the two? 4 ! As an intelligent person reading these documents, wouldn't you 5 /conclude .that, Park? >;.v . * 6 ^ ` A/ .First-he\uds. ay-r vv; :r^ 11 , 7- 8' L< * ^ 1 v> V ^ 1 * , .. 1 i' M ( r Tj. - /; V -1' L> 1i , fr\ (.v i. -( - ' *. i 1* . .Q \ Wouldn't you conclude^ that; Mr Park? That Hr. Long f t r, jr ( ' k.' r i , - i'k - j *. ' 1 * \ -tr. i 1 1 i 1 1 `' .J J - Is talking about the same virtuallysafe dose that he said hr. s_* ^ . mA l ; H- L J t 9 / JvNair was ..talking about?,. ` - -, , . rh J ' ** r ' ii;, *n 12 y:*- p fc . t r. * 1" r',* ~ * ^ -^ ' -.! T, * ,' , ,, t , . A ` /Their calculations /differ, ,,r " * . *; %` i ,, r /* J * * *> 1 ' f^ ' 'F T *tf *v ; ^ ^ -r. ' 1 ^ h - *t ^^ *> , 1 Q ;j Excuse me . Would you answer.that question? . A - , I do. not know; Kr.7 Cerr. : ` 13.. Q I'm not asking you .whether or riot you know! v;Woldn' i: 14 - you -conclude as Ja reasonably, intelligent person,, reading these ^ 15; .documents that the people; are talking, aborit the /saiae ^subject ' 16>" ;; that is, virtually safe dose? / ^; 17. A ' They use' the '.same terms & 1V *v ,.s< . is.; Q .'&d;by using, the-same terms and directing the attenv ; .' .*;t.. ;r ^rjr': / t-'` - ' L'.-' V- .. * *- J ^ ^, /,, 19' ' tion to PChh's in tetrathal and their referring by date to. j-k ' 20 : 2i the memo, wouldn't It be a safe as sumption/-by a. person perhaps , *' V . ^ -- i >, .' ;v iniA theW- thiJ rd * ga rm aA d^3eA thm a4mt they1'ryve 4mta a1lkingM ^'M.abou4t* the same thing?O'A ' m m m l a .i a W `J mn ' -'-i 1f . i.'fit ; :-L,,V'W-'; 22- \ Can' t you' deduce that , .Park? ^ :-r -- . .. . ' '/ 23 ` 24- 1 By.vsing'the terms* ^*A *{*'ti,: I?'* ' t- . v..V- ' " V * ' ;' Q^ by referring ^to^.thp. same Memos'"and referring to t,j '` J`r..-Jiv I.'*^'' `i!1 /.(-.'"V . .J j1 1 " 2. J\ 3- 4' 5 ' / wi..|`.-ii. P**- V ' < { *.* J " . f:t ;-'Vs ,* - , ' - + j i + * + fc* * _jj `l,f ' ` ' a'm d the calculations, and showing -how I corrected themathematical - : *- -tt: :'p' VV.'\h,! .'i ' i; i " rr . ' error in one" memo, can11 you deduce 'logically, Mr*. Park, that Lthey ara, they just;Hftght; very'! well ;be,talking *about the same thing? , :` V'; . MR. .^MUSGFAVE i 'May the witness now answer the ques 51 6 tion, 'Mr. Carr? v-r^ \ * 7 .r ... A; ; They might-.`be,/ V *';'V - ' s' !8 , ;Q'; They might'bfe?>V" '":,V .. -t - ',/ '* 9 .*A- Yes. ; . . -/ , ;'-V . 'r . '' : r 10 j U Q And you cahr; conclude that'they are* talking about the same thing, Mr. Park?,,,\ \ v.i , 12; 13 14 - 15 r .^ ;. fi6 - - ,17' ; 18 ^y \ 19. 20 A Since they are-- . ^ Q Mr. Park, you can*t conclude that, sir? . ,, * A That's correct. ; . . . , ^ , A Q - And you .are- under oath'in -this courtroom and you 'are saying fchat as a parson, the lawyer -for that committee to make these important decisions, that if you got "these memos on your r! ( r> -J ' * * p t. ^ ,, ,' desk in front of [you, you wouid'not conclude that, they're talking about, the. same thing?; Are you. telling us that, Mr. .V1'^ ~ .v" v-;; Park?'. ,1 ^ ; p. `r / k . : 21 A That's correct, Mr. Carr. As you phrased the " . . 22 , 23: -/ 24 question.;^--;. '*,V,L: ; / / ; - ... * ^j o " -, # ,*i- i 1 * *. , Q , 'And they ;have-- . Then I take it that Long is talking about some other safe ;dqse other thian what*s calculated by PENGAD C 0 M BA YON N E, N .J, V- . * v ?;<*'V r ^ t *-- .'T' 52 -I . 1 *or. r ' / * 2V?` '.3 L' 7 Z V 4;;V * ' v-r ** . " . " 57 -6 * ^ <rr JV- * Dr. Hair* is that correcti oir? v A i, Q : I didn* t e a y that, -Hr. Carr,' 1 V " / '#i-v7* :' j'fHi-"' ;'' .V; t7-vv-r>:*J '> `V-r -' ` fWellV tliehAtall.m^^ saying, sir? ' . - 'v.- ^ . ,,J.\i7' .. * A; - .*;don11 know, C 77 :, y - ... [YJi, .,7 v;y'.fY rt.'.' :f7 . ' . ' " 1. J` '-vV>,h i' r,!X --i'? 7'l ^.-J j _: . i^ ",;nQ Nor /;TI3'tmo'',a^'sfktiklngc',Vvynou----.-. TX knnntofwf vyaonu dfeinn`rftc 1know in your ; v \ \ / : \ 7 /'.*' definition?'for: certainty .Vr-You-don't know anything for car- ;- 7 1_ ' s ' Y Y 8/* tainty* hut;I'm telling you to uso your legal training, Hr. Park. Uee your years of exparl&nce^Mr. Park* and tell roe \\ ... / nv L 7'*'12.y".' > , 13-. r . ` i -iTV*' y 'T- ' -v: sHv' that you1re>swearliig under path.that you can 't conclude that ,1 "1 'L| . - '* * * ,," "' .^ '1i , i. . * ` ` / r ^ '( r + ** T. ' l r, . it -f 'i* ' ,'j > > ^ ^ * r - *lp,'K*" 1 this .memo is talking vabout -the same virtually safe dose*- Hr. rr , ' .1* * !* ' > '' , v . '* ... r .* * ,** - r ' j ;> ^ * r * * - >Lr.: J - ; -j ; S 'r ,.17 ;v i ' , 'i - p . , -p * <r . 1 *t v* ni v t" i u , ' Park.. And 1*11 remind >you* "you are under oath,' ;Hf. Park.: JV * `* ".n ` ' asked '^ , . h _ 1 -^ J ,"i " ``j " , ,S , s. f - .. , ,,, L 1 ' r ' _I N" l< , L -r r ^ ^ . MR./ MUSGRAVE: .Your Honorp thls question has r~ 'r;. 'V; "fi:V' " * and.answered. r been fi THE' COURT:, Overruled; \^ - 7 Y ''IS :' ;A "; I *11 repeat, Hr-. CarrV. Looking at 'the t W memoranda .16: % hy two different persons: dealing withVdiffereht calculation^ . *" '17,'',^' on different bases* X cannot conclude, that they.are speaking ' RENGAD C h BAYONNCi N j; of the ,same7thing. ,'\7 :!:vv.i,- l 7:.' ^ ?;! 1 -v ;f \ V V ^' Q/?:Wil/v<k>esn\t''W^g-tell you they*re talking, about ,: ; . ;2 p / " ,the same "thius?': : 7 / }/f;< , ; ; 7 `" j 'V ' 1 ' ''v '?*- " , ' 21 7 "j ./22.' '.-.'23 V *r ' y 24 - A\ 'rJ:ihere? Hr. -Carr? __; ^: ^ 7 ' ^ 7 ',* L- ;.."J;.V'*?/"V''".!\v 7^ - : - " '* : '" ; Q -Ip he -very first; sentence on the first page ish t . :Y v * 7 .7 1'y 7 ? /,fv v\^ ' `, 'r: r /' ;*h saying* J-The1foliowing:ris a comparison*" and -then, f'.The. -_- * ^;'?>?7'7 7..,?. 'Y'X ? L 'v- r'7 '`jV comparison,""' and tiien, .;.,!.The comparison' with'virtually sfe /, 7 jy- j * 1 doses as determined"? .2 A Yes, he does say that. 3 Q And he's connecting it to Hair, isn't he, sir? 4 A Mr. Carr,-- * 5 Q He's connecting it with Hair, isn't he, sir? 6 A Yes.,. , ; 7 Q 'He's telling you he's talking about the jgame thing * -i Vi 1 ' K ' r, -8 in the very first, sentence, isn't he, Mr. Park? . 9 A He may be. ^ i ' Lr , i' '* S 10 Q Mr. Park, not maybe. He's telling you that, isn't 11 he, sir? 12 A He says he's comparing. 13 Q He's telling you that he's comparing these same 14 things, isn't he, sir, in the very first sentence? 15 A He's comparing the potential exposure of workers 16 to PCDD's in tetrathal. 17 .MR. CARR: Your Honor, would you direct the witness 18 to answer that question? 19 THE COURT: Mr. Park. 20 A He's comparing them, yes. 21 THE COURT: Okay. 22 Q (Mr. Carr) And in this comparison that he's making 23 he's telling you by the calculations that the .37 is 30,000 24 times-- I'm sorry, the 12,300 feintograma per kilogram per day 1 is 30,000 times higher than what the EPA calculates is safe 2 for dioxin in water Isn't he, sir?. 3 A His calculation appears to indicate that. '4 Q And I 'm not satisfied with the words, "Appears to 5 indicate that/1 Hr. Park* I want an affirmative response from 6 you, sir* ,,, 7 A He does not state what you just said. Hr. Carr. -8 Q Can one conclude that from these calculations -9 reasonably?. / ib A The .37 femtogrenis per kilogram per day that he li calculates isJthe EPA water criteria for 2,3,7 8-TCDD would be "- J KV " s *J +* ** tf ,, * 1 - ir ' V1 J ' _L - f^ , V r ' , 12 about one around one thirty thousandth of the number calculate): 13 by Dr. Nair for exposure to; other dioxin isoaere based, on her .14 assumptions.' 15 Q And.if virtually safe dose is defined asrthat dose 6 p' d 4. 1 ,' f which will cause one case of cancer out of a million, then you 17 can also deduce that this may cause 30000. cases of cancer 18 out of a million? 19 HR. MUSGRAVE? Object. , It's been asked and answered. rr 1 20 The witness does not know,. Your Honor. ' 21 THE, COURT: Overruled. 22 HR. MUSGRAVE: He has testified to that four times. 23 THE COURT) Overruled. 24 A I would not conclude that at all, Hr. Carr. 1 Q I didn't ask you whether you would conclude It, but 2 wouldn't one might conclude that? Couldn't one Just possibly 3 conclude, Mr. Park? 4 A I don't know. 5 MR. ,MUSGRAVE: Speculation and conjecture, Your Honor 6 THE COURT: Overruled. r 7 A Ho. 8 Q (Mr. Carr) Xf this dose is 30,000 times greater then 9 that dose which causes one case of cancer in a million, does 10 it not follow logically, other things being equal, sir, that a ll dose that's 30,000 times larger would cause 30,000 times the 12 number of cases, of cancer? / f; ;1`* ;1^ ^; ;1 ; r> v ^t 13 MR. MUSGRAVE: ' Object to the vagueness of the ques 14 tion, other things being equal. \ ^ * 1 j. - - *- * ' m* * . \ is THE COURT: Overruled. 16 A I don't think so, Mr. Carr. There could be many 17 other factors involved. 18 Q Well, tell us the other factors, sir, because X gave 19 you that other things were equals 20 A X don't know what that means. 21 Q Are you accepting the assumption that X'v given you 22 that everything else Is equal? 23 A X don't,know what that means, Mr. Carr. 24 Q You don't know what that means? That means you"re '} 56 i - "2 3 not to giv consideration to another factor. Aesume the ,exposure by drinking the. water. \ Assuma the exposure by working * fp 4 1^ ' }n i * ''r 't in the product. Assume the exposure; Assume that human beings 4 that have weight are being exposed to these chemicals that's 5 being put into the cocammity by Monsanto and that if that 6 chemical goes out as it's posed ;that way, that it can cause . 7 30*000 cases;of cancer put.of a million, if people are exposed - 8- to it. How; they may never be exposed to it/ Mr,'Park. I'm, 9 not telling you that they are^ \ X*xa giving you," if they're ; ' ,Tt .x _ ^r *` | ` ^ h *" ^ / J FI 'M ' p- '1 * ,, .^ r 10 exposed to it in the way these toxicologists have calculated, 11 can you not conclude that it will cause, if their calculations 12 are correct and if there is exposure,., given the calculations, 13 they've made, can you not conclude, that it will cotise according 14 15 16 . 17 is 19 20 21 ' N 22 to their calculations 30,000 cases of cancer out of a million? I would > notr- ,) * ' - <-# , -. Jr W ; '. * *-v jf , . ^> '* ME...MOSGEAVEs .' Object. .It assumes facts not in ` 'i v : ' . ' * ' '4 >v>.r evidence . - - ' ` i v ,- :V >. '& ' * } < . v . />'*<. , F 1 - v' r, , I i-r. * r1 - . - THE COURT t., Overruled. - . ' !'1 1i i- >.v - . ,MR. CARR: Can It not be concluded by others from that information? Perhaps not by you, but'by others, sir? MR; tiUSGRAVRi ^Object. Speculation and. conjecture. ;^HE. COURT'S Overruled. ; 23 A As you phrased the question, perhaps it might. 24 ' Q Yea. ' .: ' '*' ` V "' . < r " BAYONNE,' N ,J, O 1 Now, Hr. Park, the next calculation, the CBG risk calcula 2 tion that this toxicologist gave you in which your committee 3 never considered was, came up with a 28 femtogram per kilogram 4 per day, didn't it, sir? 5 A That's correct. 6 Q And that 28 Is about A0 times greater thereabout 7 than the 12,800, correct* sir? 8 . A That's right. This is the one that Long said was 9 similar to the EPA criteria. * 10 Q Yes. There's something else you want to say about 11 that, Mr. "Park? . 12 A No. I'm just pointing that out. Th sem to differ 13 by-- , 14 Q X understand that. , The toxicologist believes that . 15 they are similar losing the criteria* doesn't he, and* of course, 16 you accept what a toxicologist bays* you don't go behind it. 17 You've testified to that under oath before that you accept what 18 the toxicologist says? 19 A Unless I; knew:it to be wrong, of course. 20 Q Wall, do you know that. it ie wrong? v,, \ e' `1 * ? 1( 21 A The two figures, o n c o f th numbers that he says is 22 similar to another one;Is about; looks like about 75 times as 23 much as the other one. 24 Q And you've,made :that calculation as a toxicologist, 1 Hr. Park? 2 A As s witness* Hr. Carr* 3 Q Do you know the criteria that the CDC set up? Do 4 you know all those other considerations that your toxicologist 5 knows but didn't necessarily set down on the piece of paper? 6 Do you know those things* Mr. Park? 7 A . (Indicated no) 8 Q than you will indeed accept the conclusions of the , 9 toxicologist from these figures* won't you, air? And be that 10 as it may* .Mr Park* that calculation will causa 400 times 11 what's called one case in a million* won't It* air? 12 A It would seem roughly about that* yea. 13 Q Kell* about 500 actually. I'm a little off, A lifcti 14 low. About 500 cases * correct * sir? 15 A Well let me Just divide it* Hr. Carr. 457* 16 Q And the other, if it all got in the fish and people 17 ate the fish* the 2320 f&mtograms Is about five* the 12*000 18 is about five times greater than that* isn't it* air? 19 A .-Yes. , ; 20 Q And-- 21 A Four to five. r 22 Q The toxicologist makes, that ,clear in that second 23 sentence on the second page. If one compares the calculated - i' i -1 - 24 daily exposure to PCDD8s. with .these numbers, the calculated 1 PCDD exposure exceeds all these values, doesn't it, sir? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Now, your committee had a memo from Dr, Levinskas * 4 in which he said the risk was greatly exaggerated by Dr. Nair. 5 Do you remember that memo, Plaintiffs1 Exhibit 1299? 6 A Yes. '` 7 Q And here is, Long comes along and says, in fact, that 8 it's not greatly exaggerated,, says that there is indeed, that 9 this calculated exposure exceeds all of the values, Now, this 10 is an important piece of evidence for your committee to have. 11 Now, whether this calculation-* 12 MR. MUSGRAVEi Mr. Carr, are you going to ask him 13 that question? Is that a question or a statement that you just 14 made before? *, : 15 MR. G&RRi I 'm. asking him a question, r 16 MR, MUSGPAVHi Well, I would then object, Your Honor, 17 to the statement, the speech by Mr. Carr that immediately 18 preceded what he is now asking him because he did not allow 19 the witness to answer. It, so obviously it wasn't a question, 20 so obviously it was a speech and.lt was Counsel's testimony, 21 and I submit that it is inaccurate and misrepresentation of 22 what the document saysj and.I request that the Court strike the 23 speech and instruct the Jury to disregard it. 24 THE COURT: Overruled on both. You may continue, Mr. ;,' '* \ *J .TV ] Carr. , */ , '' ` 1 t r- i ' > 2 Q (Mr. Carr) This is an important piece of evidence, 3 whether it is right or whether It is wrong, that your committee 4 should have before it makes-a decision, isn't that correct, sir? 5 A You're talking about the hong memorandum? 6 Q Yes, I am, 7 A I would leave that up to Dr. Roush. 8 Q For him to decide whether or not you should have all 9 the. facts? 10 'A Hell,-- 11 s- 1 ' Q Is that correct, sir? , 12 A .Ho. I'm sure h provided us with all the facts he 13 felt were relevant to our discussions, Mr. Carr. 14 Q He provided you with the Hair memo, which, or, no, 15 rather the Hair .memo-16 A I think that came to me from Dr. Levinskaa. 17 Q Yes; It didn't go to Dr, Roush, did it? Dr. Roush 18 didn't have a chance to shortcircuit it, did he, sir? 19 . A The Hair-- , 20 MR, MUSGRAVE: X object to that comment by Counsel as 21 being improper, Your Honor, Request that the Jury be instructed 22 to disregard it. 23 THE COURT: Overruled, 24 A The Hair memorandum, as I recall, went to Dr. Levinskafe ,r/> * LQ And D r. -L e v in s k a s d is t r ib u te d i t to yo u ? >; ;" A Y e o ;. v / / / , > ' / / , ? X ./ ; ; .. _ / / * v ' \ '3": ' r . ' /U, ' ". 5 .; Q I f y o u lo o k a t . t h e H a ir memo, i t w e n t t o P a p a g e o rg e , F a r le y a n d Jo h a n n s e n , ae w e ll a s L e v in s k a s , a l l o f whom a r e m em bers o f y o u r , n o t a l l o f whom , ' b u t p a r le y a n d P a p a g e o rg e / ;/ /6 -V " ': , ^ 7 . .w a re ' m e m b e rs o f y o u r c o m m it t e e ,1.w e r e n ' t t h e y , / s i r ? / A ' __ T h a i * * . c o r r e c t ' ' - r ^ V ' '' ^ ^; ' ' 8 -l , Q * :> _ B u t t h e L o n g memo w e n t t o L e v i n s k a s , w h o i s n o t a '* r - ... ,.i1--' f *t f r if 't( Jp* ,, ' :> y '*J L- 1 ., -* V m em ber o f y o u r c o m m itte e , I t w c n t to F u e h rn a h , who i s n o t a . ip . 11' / m em b er o f y o u r , c o m m it t e e , . a n d . it ,- w e n t :t o R o u s h , w h o / i s . a .ta e m b e i* > - ` . ' *. ' *- i; % , CV ` i ^ ,r"^, - J o f y o u r c o m m itte e / b u t ;d id n o t b r in g > it fo r w a r d , a c c o rd in g to y o u r f i l e s , i* s n f t t h a t c o r r e c t , s i r ? / .' j 13 'K L L ' I4 . .A ' 1 -do n o t rem em ber d is c u s s in g i t a t th e c o m m itte e m e e tin g . . ^r ' - /- ; / BAYONNE. N .J. 07002 FORM 1 L '2 4 B ' 'N r 15S y .> > Q T h e L e v in s k a s -.ffie m p i s i n y o u r f i l e a n d y o u d o . iiOot.f * 16 M r P iH d n ie r d is c u s s i n g t h a t a n d w e f v e g o n e a t som e le n g t h b n t h a t , *sOo' /"<i "r--17- - . h a v e w e n o t ? / ' - , - ' ; ' 1- - /- r. ; 2 ' is ; . U ` -L ^ , v, A Y e e . L e v in s k a s d id s e n d h i s ;'m em o ran d u ia/ - _ ,,1<m ` o O4 ` 2U ' ,% - > 19 ^ - i ' ,L>,J .2-0" 1 '/1 ' ' `21. Q ..A n d * th is * s h p u ld n ^ t,itj s ir ? .A I a s sum p ie c e o f e v id e n c e - s h o u ld h a v e b een c o n s id e r ; X . ^ ' k' . ; i t t7a e c o n s id e r e d b y D r . R o u s h , M r . C a r r . - / . , *22 ; Q B u t h o i s n o t y o u r ^ c o m m itte e , i s h e , ' a i r ? 23-' .1f * * ' 24 1 .-1 J ' 1 . J ' *'r A D r. Roush?- . q, i 1' Y e s ; ' /.* ; / = / > . ; " 1 . > V . >. * *~ * ^ r '*" * * * * +m\ ' r-- ` ^ ^ // " ,, /i- -Jv 1 / ** | -^ , * >. , -r .. , ' - ' J ^I "i* pJ*,1 ;_ r 1 A Yes, he is, 2 Q He is your committee? 3 A Ha is on Che committee. 4 Q Well, chan why did the rest of you even meat? 5 A I'm sorry, X misunderstood 6 Q Why didn't you just submit everything to him? 7 A I thought you were asking la he on the committee. 8 Q ftp. Ha is not the committee, Is he, sir? He's one 9 member of the committee, isn't he, sir? 10 A That's correct. That's correct. S - 11 Q Add he has on vote, doesn't he, sir? 12 A He represents toxicology. 13 Q . He has one vote,' doesn't he, air? 14 A That's correct. \ ; IS Q Doesn't have two or five and he cannot dictate the 16 results of that committee mooting,' can he, sir? 17 A That's correct. 18 Q And if three vote one way and Roush votes another 19 way, the three will prevail, won't they, sir? 20 A X can't imagine that we would disagree. 21- Q That's not my question, sir. Could you answer my 22 question, sir? 23 A It's inconceivable that' we would vote against-* 24 Q Assume that three vote, one way and Dr. Roush votes i another way* Three vote t report and, Roush votes not to 2 report. Will the report take placet 3 A Yes, it would. 4 Q All right. Wow, If he withholds evidence that could 5 conceivably persuade the three that Dr. Wair was right, then 6 the committee doesn't really vote intelligently, does it, sir? 7 . A I assume with his experience, background and train-* 8 ing-- / / 9' Q That's not what I'm asking you, sir. I 'm asking you 10 whether or not the committee votes intelligently if it doesn't 11 have all the evidence.J If one member of the committee arrogata 12 unto himself that this should not he known by the committee 13 and doesn't even giva It to the lawyers who is charged with, 14 th responsibility of interpreting the law and determining 15 whether or not a report, should be made, the committee cannot \ *r ' S f fM f? ' J| i 11 (' *r 'L| " ` ^ 16 make an intelligent'decisipht con It, sir? . r ^ - `- - r. 17 A As. long as we'haye;;thQ; counsel of Dr. Roush we can 18 make an.intelligent decision. 19 Q / Y o u are not voting"oh-all the evidence, are you, sir| 20 A . All the evidence considered relevant and worthy of 21 consideration. 22 Q And what you're doing is placing the fate of your 23 reputation as an attorney, the fate of people who might be 24 exposed to this material in the hands of one person who may 1 be prejudiced against human health effects. Now* Dr.-- Isn't 2 that correct, sir? He may be prejudiced? , 3 A Dr. Roush is a man of high integrity. 4 Q Is It possible, Is it not, that Dr. Roueh may believe 5 "in all sincerity and all honesty that the only bad result that 6 comes from exposure to dioxin, no matter how much you are 7 exposed to It, the only bad result is going to be chloracne? 8 It's possible that he believes that, isn't it, sir? 9 MR. MUSGBAVE: Your Honor, may my objection to now 10 Counsel asking this witness to speculate as to what somebody 11 else may believe and go into the mind,of someone else continue 12 to run to this course of questioning about now speculating and 13 conjecturing as to conclusions or beliefs of another person, 14 specifically Dr. Roush? 15 THE COURT: The objection Is overruled. It is a 16 continuing objection.- -Excuse me. And. so noted in the record 17 as continuing. 18 A I don't know, Mr. Carr, 19 Q Well, Mr; Park, you've met with Dr, Roush on a number 20 of occasions. He served on the same committee with you. You'v . -. (' '^t ^\ 1 .V / 21 had a necessity to discuss-the health effects of exposure to 22 these chemicals with ..Dr. Roush. You must have done that, did ' . : r. v 23 > . .* ' you not, .sir? if you're going to serve on this committee 24 intelligently you must have discussed it with Dr, Roush. f 1 t V \ 1r O' 65 A I have discussed things .with'Dr. Roush over years. ,t-> Q The health effects you've discussed, haven't you* sirj? - 3". A Mr. Garrt I cannot recall Dr. Roush's view of the ,4 'toxicology of 2.3,7,3 or any other specific isomer, '; 5 . Q ,You can't recall then." '-Would you accept from'me, 6 and Dr. Roiish will be here ln a few days, that.he has sworn, 7' '8`.v ' . 9; - y* V 10' ^J '11/ v under oath that the only bad effects .-that, you're, going to, get from exposure to dioxin is chloracne? . And he swore that rather well, not recently any more,: but before this case started. Before that. He may "bav changed1his mind now, but neverthe less' at th;;time you, were meeting at these various .committee meetings that was his view. Did you know that that was his ill ; 14 JJ15 16 'L* 17 ' view, Mr. Hark? r -111,-. -I- . 1 . A , ,11-will accepthisview. Mr. Carr. iQ ^ ftow,you would accept his. view? . !7 ^ r):'n ' 1' a ; 1. ,/r:^ c. ,i, Q , 1Now, if that view, is correct, then Monsanto then V.18' need neyer notify t h e E P A of the dioxin content, because that's \ 19 .20 ' hbt one of these bad health effects, from a product that EPA, the law aayC you've got to notify us about, .Is it, sir? , 21 -^ 'i2- ` 231 And chioracne has been, your workers were told by Monsanto that chloracne ie similar \to ta n 'adolestentvcase -of'teenage acne. - . v". * V-i* .i:: .., . ,, 1 _ r , V'"J * t . +it \ *J * t , J . + l . .* > J J- - 1, T _ fc - , r, ` , - r i , ' ^ '1 'Now, that1s not-- ;There1schildren in this courtroom that'have .2 4 got teenage} acne,' and that's not 1 I submit, and 1 had teenage i 1' - J-' T. i' V * E V % 4* \* ra J , * , `X - y * * * . * 's ! \ J 9" *fc "j J -1 , * -t 1 r' - r Ty" ^ t * +' -' * r , L ! * >' * ^ ,, f, - t,> P E N GAD CO .. -D AO N N E. N.J. ` 07002 1 acne, it's not a bad health effect,? It's unpleasant and it's 2 not cosmetically the beet thing, but it really Isn't a bad 3 health effect, is it, sir? 4 A. X would not consider it bad. 5 Q And, therefore, if Dr; Roush's view prevailed at 6 that commit tee, then you indeed were not required to report 7 whatever the levels of TCD1V then your review that you could 8 have a tank car full of 2,3,7,8-TCDD go out from the plant and 9' you wouldn't have to report it to the EPA, then you would be ' 10. correct, wouldn't you, sir? 11 MR. MUSGRAVE: Object. Speculation and conjecture. 12 Assumes facts not in evidence. 13 M E COURT: Overruled. 14 Q (Mr. Carr) You would be correct, wouldn't you, sir? 15 A I think you asked me two questions, Mr.' Carr. I 'm 16 trying to--, 17 Q Well, answer whichever one you feel like answering, 18 Mr. Park, 19 A X guess w e 're back to the reporting requirements of 20 Section 8(e). 21 Q Yeah, health effects. Serious health effects. 22 Cancer, death, incapacitating illnesses, death. Things of that 23 sort. 24 A Xn as much as whatever they actually are or speculate fi, Vi r.r V * "Af . 67; 1:j :. 7 > 'f - r `.v . 'j,*l - *" L ,to be I .think the I, ' i I f . , s , y EPA' i W*fiu4ily-'aware of- X ' r's if ir ' ; . 'V ^ , _ i .a '- i ,r. i i , . 4 alil' those, ' ` think 'J a \ *- i 7-KWj, --v; -, ' that iL . : \ ; not requite A-;\ that t:hhaat *tank-car be .reported ,,under/Section 8(e)V ' *777 r* v- 'o ; ^ - ..j t;' VT J v * VjS i J t '* f ' i * * \\* V.., J *> f * ij J h 1 1 , , ,( 5 ` : QI\;,Well,;, certainly ifallritlie'going to cause, is ;7 6 . chloracne, arid I111 agree With you,you*re absolutely right, 1 ' 7 ;-but that brings Up the- point,that, if; other toxicologists have ,7 fc\. ; y* V\;ir,V\> --.7-: '. "'v J.,,' w>` ' *- r ".* ,'1 'V`>' . ' 1 : ; : /8 ' va different view, let* s just suppose hypothetically that some 1^ 9 : ./ toxicologists, believe>that:.dioxini -exposure''can;cause cancerLand 10 / that the FA believes that and .the .CDG believes that and the `7 - v . ;:y;y V />' -v/^ .',-: - ,11 ` FDA believes that, atdifferent levels to be sure,\but they ** "* f ri '1 ' , T ^ " ,J ' } J * . .* '* - I ' r- ' **J r . " ir t t ' 1 ^ f ' - ^ k, r* * 12 ,, : believe, these .agencies believe that:,,it causes ;cancer A 13^7 1/ '\ id,v two toxicologists ;ecgployed .by Monsanto 14 ,, . believe that to be the case. If Dr,, Roush, however, that \7 15 doesn't believe it to be the case/ if the memos go to him..Wd; 16 'never .gets to the covmtttee,;then -the. committee:doesn't have " '* -7 ' 7 ; '-7 A.. .\v; H the'benefit of. dealing"With a full deck of cards,.;does it, siri 18 -v ' . ` :,ME. ^iUSGRA'WBi >lie that a;.question, Mr.^.barr?':' v-'- - '19-"- ' /^7-bAB|Li 7 - i a ^ ^ % '*-> ;>- . -20 .'J ;r. v' `f ` ^ /.," ", .1' ,7 - /v ^MbSGEAVEi-- 'Is -it ^ hypothetical? Then I object; '21sji *' to.I t I t - assumes ,facts hot ih evidence and .assumes factsF`,;;4 f * - -- *- n v y -v ` ll; ^ ** j- taTV, .1 v, 22 -"`7 r-- , ' V7 ^.v_ ; ^-'.'V <''r--'vr'r L;'. V 7 v"7 7'. ,J -" J ' t fr .-that are also contrary to the documentation M r 7Carr vhiraself-.;; '"r.j-i:) 23. ';WasJproduced^ ^ ,<'^\;7CV''>''':,77 ` 7.", 1w;^ `'7 77 i/o/7'7 '77 :24' ` 7;'V n piE^COURT:;-, OVerWuled. - ^$ys.\ '> /.. : -7 7 L^:7'7 t.- .. j'' ' '.-'Vr' 'V' V.7- 1 ^ -. - ;.7 - \ '?:*. 'f r. ' ........ ^ - > ''-*1 '1 ^ ^ ` _. - `L . . 11 ' i r. 1 -- ** 1 t ' t -,N ' * r' - * * ,L I.'1 k * 7f.L'fc.- S t >' - ? P . . r: . ' - ` ' r 71 . '7 ,-t - 4*1 v * 1 fl ^ . *rI ^ '7 ^ 7 ^ K7 , ` V ^. v ' 4 ' / Ms-j' L P E N C A O , C O . ' . B A Y O N N E - N,J, ^ " ` . -L*-r ` 1' *6S J, . 1 ^ . A - Mr. Carr, I' think we would;, consider Dr. Roush to be 1 our moot .eminent author!t y o n m e d i c a l e f feet. ' 'rl`Q tod X .certainly accept "that sir. A --1r, .T- 4 :to'd I `' t* 'mhink'.withv hrivs presence at any meeting we have :lTM.. # ^^,,v ;\5V; . 1 ' ,- . - ;r- ' V' - v v \ .----v -i -- a full deck, of cards. V-V \r f -if- -V jV , ' *' r v: s r . ' ; < . . "j' *1` , . - f ; J f - * .. .... n ,, -- Q Well, 'not-i.ff^DDrr,^rpr;:Mr.CLtog 's 'report to yyou, vw1hich --suppppoorrts the, Mair .memo."and.tekes .away'from theLevinskas . ^K` * ,yy' --af'i*.j'*'/ y, -.'r-. .' , - ,, 'i ' !/ i J- ** J ,> 1 j i' i r / l. memmoo, If you don--1 have that you don't have afull deck of cards,-do you, sir7 You're .relying 'upon one.man.- You become a one-man coxmaittee'and: therets no need for you all to meet. , ^And if that is a fact,:you*re,not really fulfilling the oblige , ! - 15 V- < V r- - , ' ' .<"v' <r - '/ - '1 r \ r*- 1 - . > v.r-' *" .J' --1^' '*" '* . felons of the lawjto consider these, things, are you, sir? y : : - A I -don* t :see. Long1s .memo as taking'away from, Levinskat e * Q tod perhaps, y o u d o n 't see that, Mr. Park, and mayber V . that's the reason theydidn't give'it to you.: But for what- ever reason you didn*t;have it tod you didn't have the ability to. conclude ,,that, and you. might have Concluded .that; I'm sure you would have concluded thht,. the point is the EPA law. and the regulations that .Monsanto,set,up itself requires that thesei < facts be. considered by, a coTMitteoV .doean't 'it, sir? ^ . \ 'vy A / Tlie questioh aS; to wliether there is an 8(e) report - r e q u i r e m e n t - , r , Q Yes.i '/-r / . ; A '1" '-J ' .--be. considerQd by the Committee. r. .'r*!'i1-' - ''1 , 1 `u ' i.1 .i, .1 ' . ,..1' .y : , ',`-v ' . '* f r*., -i* i*- ^jr, j'- *. -ir ' , J * * ^ ,,YV-/ I fL ^ ^ > 1'V ? 2;'' `v /7-A ' ^..,>.rr"; Q, Y&hd that means, that that committee'muet consider all O j V , * j ' - pj; * `l -j*rr; /r'. relevant fact$, mstn*t it>; sir? ',.77' ` '.-7 J'/:S/ ' > s -, / n ' ^ V ' - l . - '!'**, :-->rV'iJ-F 'J*"7 ";77 ' > .3 A! "That's right'.^'"'>^' ` ' -v,.^ 'V V r:\ >; / A.'' `r; t ;- - *. n jv *A Q / ; And;the-opinions ;.of .toxicologie te "are .relevant ^^ L ` '-S'" ,- facts , fen't t h e y "sir?.7'/ :'*7/',/-;a/>7... 69 .6/ K Whatever Dr ; Koush-- '' v ^ > V 7 >-7s' 7r7 ,' 7/' . - \ Q , Excuse--'me,.,,Hr?-1Parle,, ./ThatUish*t 'what I*m asking; yeti'* - 1' *' -fa.-S':lj`i^ `j`"-p-it - // .-,7'. -Aa '-uA - -*, /*' , ` . ,7- . 7 7 ' 7 7-7'7 ` '-J A ' ; . 8 . ; I'm. saying the opinions vo. Dr. Naif,-Dr, Levin skas, -Dr. Long ' *'.../ - /'7?;7y7, /,'?; ? are, relevant ^opinions ;;/* )X\ t.<they, ;sir? ; ; -; ' ,' /v: [ 10/^ &."-v:X don^t know.; It might hot be. If ourItoiicol " 11 ' 7 n)r :J" ' -".P/* U__ :/ 13 ; Q .You're -specdltig' again'.^aren*t you?'/: :.-: ,, . ' , * - .Vi.-', v v. " ,-' ;J -1 ' - T v' -.. A Yes.,: t.':*'.'* ,/r rv. - ' ,P ' ; - -, //. v," r :.'V' ' )/;?' -t :, - ,, /r ' Q ~ .These are /things that ie in ;the 'function of youf G f i 11j W S O J Z Q 0 1 0 _ T'N '3NNOAVQ J 14/i-r' committee; to decide; You hve;hot accepted .a dictatorship oh ;is 7 rB xy 1 ' * i* ''i'' -*-tj nhiat commit; t. ee,- . "jt. :*-;*`'J ?>"':/ l-ira\ve. you",r s.ivr?' / t a ,L ,.; , '^ 't /'[ r ' .\r7 '>* . 'A**'-' A 17/ , . .* 'A ' Et,',Carri'txt's npt^'true'v/'/C ^ '7'/ 7^ ' `' /- V -L.`v.'C *' -`V.v, 1 : ' ' r- ;A ' J " - ' -i v 'y N` - / . -' . t. Q i Ohv 'then you. have, accepted a dictatorship? : ^ ', Y. 18,*/ / '..-X'was; answering ;your. -firstvquestion,,Mrv /Carr. :`'.; V,19, ; You'll hay to allow m ,to /answer each ;question os -you go along 20 / because it's difficult, for me to remember all of them* Z'-2// l* - 1 iJ j , Q . '/Nell, Mr.^Park, let'a :go one';af 'a t i m e - Ia.it'-the: -y , 'l , ?,t '.v., '1 /-/ . ; ti'.j/j!. i ,j-r-.,> /' , full committee that*;s supposed fp have the obligation of making 'iiV i > 44 those decisions? n, , ,^ < ;' L 4- > 'A/'A . <*1V i"i, *' A 1:;The fui I committee considers the information. j w^.1 4 r J-p 4 y 'm C - *: \ym:\f:* 7 l Q tod does the law; require 'that the full committee get J "-j'J j' ^JV **" '1 * " V ' all relevant ,optoidns; from toxicologists? vf -7 " ' - ''v.' '"*i'" v'-, " - /? , "r` 3 . A The law requires that we consider relevant informa 4-' tion, -V ' ' 1,./ ' -- V- 5 . Q tod are opinions, from toxicologists relevant informa* 6 tioirt ,7 ;/v-o; - ` r <_ l" ' A1 - ` - J>v <n r ( 1 ,,. - . - ,, H \ \' \ ** *' * '.' - ', 1 Toxicological inforciation is relevant and we obtain ^ /r ; 8 that'from Dr. Roush. V > / r ^ '// . ``` `* 9 - . Q\ Are opinions .from toxicologists relevant information? 10 ; ; ;A ; Some might or .might;;not .be//as Dr. Roush would r" . ' J ' `7 ,*V * i*' V`-A -ri ;r -. . . ' 11 . - : , - /- /,_ t .v . ... . - determine. r;I'trnot go'ingto- sit-here,-/Mr. ;Carr/.and say that,'; 12 Dr. Roueh.might ;-not 'evaiuate,difforent thoughts that .come to * v 'l ' i/lv 'V1-L"i',' iii ' n i r ta i . T* %,J -J'" 1/ k 13 - him from different people; and some he will perhaps agree with; l4 * r " * r " V1 ^ j;-*1 ;^ 1 . :r /j--T-1" #ij .,>*J,r 1( V% .(Vj ^ t t i . - -* ,1 . rnr- j ^1 J jk ;;some he m a y :not 'agre with; ^ :But, it's his responsibility1. He - f 1 is r * - f Is the h e a / o f tbo ` * '* " L ** ' | ,dcpartinant. He is tha: reprsentatif a 16 on .the coaiaittee to provide us /with' information/ .relevant ` 17 v information on health effects. 'J *, . - 18;/ Q : Did .he put any toxicological opinion, in/writing that 19 we culd compare.it,with other toxicologists? . 2 ;v 2! > / :v A , `I"don!t ,rcli//v ;;/';.///.'/'^ ` J *' * . ^ t 7- ta V " ' 1 .V/ i ^ .( t J i ^ ' >\ j . 'I >f f ' - 7 ; Q o he -a toxicologist? / /* > fc ( . ^ * 22,- A -He certainly' appears to be .well-qualified. *, V1 . . H, " * j '/ - 23 >; Q Is lie. a toxicologist? ;.7 V:/ ^, /; 24 / -. A I'm not; certain as to his qualifications Hr. Garr; <, - B AT ON NE , H i J, "`71 ..v:.; I Would consider hlW wellrqualifled in toxicology', ^ J'^2 .^ , Q Wall; how cau you consider that.if you,don't know ^ -jy\:.-V i ' ;that he*e a toxicologist? Does h belong to any toxicological L::v\4;-- organisations? !' :/.L ,V.,, y<r,Vv,'.^^ y-'*:-- ' :-VV"*" 'V.-,;, W!' V 1/ -,iy< r ;.vr \ - s '. -:A v If"you press,We,!-1 wuld consider him to be..a toxi* v ' '\ 6 li ^ '"J1: ` 'v : / V-rf ` Jy '... ./ - , ;i geologist. " / y-y\- ^ ir :{ -:. . *' ' J '''.I. , r. ',.t t'5. ". i .T''i 'V ' ` .* * ' ` irk'" V ^ Q * you know.What a.toxicoiogist is from .your,yearis',; 'A' ,v8^-; ;of Work* ;.;X'thought he;was ,a meuv that was. an M.B.'.and had no:.^ 9; r '!speciality -in toxicology*. Now,--you.'can be a H.D. ahd. a:toxi- \ 10 ;Jcolegist;;-1?m not suggesting you'can't;,wearJtwo hats*"But my ' \ 11 ," `question is,;!is Br.! Roush a toxicologist? >/ ^ / \ ` 12. ` ` _nj JA,t If^you prods We/ i believe 1 would ccmsidor him as > ,! V 13 : fc fr 1 V J ,6UCh ,V- 'w,;V,, ->.' -if ; .*V,- h -,1 ' `i -- -v * A , 1 -, ., , , - .... : ' , Vi4:;' ; 'll^ wr; : v .Q . >I ra:not.asking fyou.if you .would consider him as such. *'"* -L "t ' t r*' ? * ^ i' \ ;J - t Ll^" ,L . * . J ? '' -H. ^ ,hnj tf * \ * * * + f t Vy J.r j 4 ,, " ^ " `-j.1 ( t , c *.-! t , * r ^j V ,^:>5,' I asked you ^whether or not^he.lvae,;one; -sir. v s'" `a - r . .,r'. ';:-,.v*/-!''-"'Ip1 ~ .v-'V, ^ : ;:i6 r - .:, ; A "Okay.'{\To- the hest of:,my;rkhowledga, I would say .he; :r' "f>' ,t- - 'r'1 ,tV ^,L. *'vi1 ,'L`, l'- ' -I17'.: 'is,> _ -./-.i \;(' w$'f1 fJV b --1 /./ J- 1; ^ ' -' . v- b.' '-.'`IS ; ^ X xv Q ' ;'Aj2d..he,8.told :jrou '. -' '* ;> /"'*\ `.b'v -* --V T C;^'l ' ' ''' i., ' b " V ./ 1*9' : .. - A ; /I^bclieye I have heard hira'use the term;clinical , -;v i.) / l , y 0- ':,;tQ3^ologi^t:v^How; I am not; fatniiiar-myself,^deeply familiar ,* 1 J- v " f , :,r ; ` . - 1 'f-i .- ` !, . V ,- ' *!- c * v, . ' `, - ' - ;'-;21 r'*J * with that termi-V;.!:' " ^ ' - * 'v > ` `` i'-' ` "-22 'v - y> -. . ' Q . He didn11 give you a memo taking away from or contradieting any of these pedple that you know are toxicplogiete, :. l .?24:*\ did he, sir?' , r ;`y' ; o ''> ; FORM1 JL 24 B 1 A I do not have a memorandum. 2 Q And your committee voted not to notify the EPA with** 3 out having the opinions of Mr. Long* did you not? 4 A That would appear to be the case. 5 Q And Mr. Long concluded, did he hot, that to assume - 6 that the carcinogenic potential of all PCDD* e Is equivalent to 7 2,3,7,3-TCDjB without test data may not be appropriate, dicin't 8 he, sir? ,J . . 9 A Just a moment, Mr". Carr. ' 10 Q Second page of his report of January. 23rd, 1985 to 11 Dr. Roush. * * k* v< 12 A And you were reading-- Ah. The ne&t to last-- I'm 13 sorry, where were you reading? 14 Q The nest to last, third from last sentence, "To 15 rassume that the carcinogenic potential of all PCDD'.s is equiva~ 16 .lent;to 2,3,7,8-TCDD without teat data may not be, appropriate," 17 ; ; * V ` V V /:i,> .' He says that*1. doesn't, he?' , ;>/, , , r* Jv ' u \* 18 A That's correct# ' ' S' s 19 Q But he Just says that it may not be appropriate, 20 doesn't he, sir? f, '`* , .' ; ' ' ;^* , ** * i ** 21 A That's correct. , 22 Q He doesn't tell you that it is inappropriate. He's 23 j giving this information to' you, isn't tie, sir? * * 1 24 A l That's what he says. * - i, ^-l" 73 -Q M d it could be appropriate, couldn't it, sir?, .2 A - Ha says it may not be. y -, ; ' y.." 3 ^ Tr 4 Q . . And. what he tells you finally* probably the most important thing M the .whole"document* :ia the last sentence* ; V? * "The actual risk is currently impossible to c a l c u l a t e H e 6,. -says that^vdoesn't h e . . ^ s i r y - . . , ^ ; y '' ' V -7 : A y * : He- says it s `impoasibla.\to calculate* 'y : :T ; 8 Q That means- that, the; risk-may be greater, it'may be' - . 9 /less than the calculationo'tiiat both'he-and Dr. Mair have made '10 n ,j2r- -and that Dr. Levinskas have made,-isn11 ;it,' air? Isn't that ]-!* ^ \ , ;Ii,,/'r-,yJ --what thatmeane? /?-. ' \ :'' ,y>"' . y .. . .. . r -./a ; :v ' - . . r 1 - .. , - . - i - ; A Iwould not read that, sentence that way. 13 14 15 -, 16. ^ : Q .Sir; you would not read-it, that way?, . A' Up, I would- He* s not saying it cannot be evaluated or considered or ah assignment made.' \ A. ' ' J 1 1 't . '' / ' ,, j ' , .* rrS/ 1^ r pp ti-.> - f- tr p' T| " 14 * " *"' ^1 *V m _- , _ - ^ , Q yZ'didh'tsay^that, ,`I, said^it." crni't be calculated.: >; 17 a.' * 'A'/' ^ThatvB r i g h t . " V * 5 ' is -19 . "'20- . l\. > Q. . It may be a greater risk than, what, these gentlemen '1 ` *' * '* ,a * - J,` "- . , \ 1-, J - * _ ^ ' , A* ' ' 1. 1 " r * ~ \% k -' . 1 have calculated or may be .a lesser risk than what has bean _ i`j!. ',- ,y ,r'' .'i' ' .calculated, ;isn't .that correct '*. - ''i 21 ` -A , : ,1 don?t read hie statement as,implying that, Mr. Canj* a . t- , 'r 22 "r 'Q j . J`, . * 1 . ,' $ T -fi V y / 'y v [, 'i . . - - , ' ,^ ; : t,I.sn11 itveKactly. what he says, it's-.impossible;to -\23 ' 24 ;calculate?-' -,.,f v ,' - L' , v f.tf-Vi 7r\ ui7'^V ; ' A 'That s-correct-.y:;;/.- - `; b" : BAYONKE. N.J. 07001 1 Q If it is impossible to calculate, that means' it can't 2 be known by calculation? 3 A But it can be estimated, I would assume. 4 Q ' You would assume that. Well, of course, you are not 5 a toxicologist. 6 A That's correct. 7 Q- So how can you assume that, Mr. Park? You've told us '8 a dozen times that you're not a toxicologist, so how can you 9 assume that? 10 A Right. I can assume ,if i t c a n n o t b e calculated It 11 could be-- . : 12 Q You can assume that? 13 A Yes. . - :' 14 Q Then you are exercising judgments relating to toxi- ^ 41 V 15 cology, aren't you, sir? ' All this time you've been telling us . 16 that you're not a-~ 17 A I'm. just trying to answer your questions, Mr. Carr 18 Q No, Mr. Park. What you do is you show that you have 19 knowledge\of toxicology, when you believe it in the interest of 20 Monsanto to demonstrate it, but when you don't believe that 21 it's in the interest-of Monsanto to. demonstrate it, you feign. ' y.'h 22 absence of knowledge, you feign ignorance, you suggest to us 23 that you haven't learned anything in-these six years. That's ... 24 what you do,LMr. Park.  <*-\ t. '* " ' '* * i . 1 MR. HUSGRAVEi Object to Counsel' peach. Request ' ' '"' .: i : 2 that it be stricken from the record and the jury Instructed to 3 disregard it. ^ 4 - THE COURT: Overruled. 5 Q (Mr. Carr) Mr. Park, the end result is is that 6 Monsanto lets go without notifying the EPA a substance upon * a j 7 the American public, the risk of which cannot, it's impossible 8 to calculate the risk, isn't that correct, sir?. 9 A I don't know that that's-- 10 Q And that dioxin, Mr. Park, 250 parts per billion, enc .11 we've already gone through perhaps a hundred time no, a 12 thousand, a hundred time less than the 20,000 Any number of - r-. 13 times less. Here's one with 48,000 parts per billion, of dioxlc 14 You've corrected me, you said it was 50,000. How, that's, in 15 February of '79 that's dioxin that went out to be put in eithez 16 oil well additives for oil well workers or on the lawn. Hot 17 250 parts per billion that they can't calculate the risk of, 18 but 50,000 parts per billion. Mr. Park, do you conceive that 19 your committee has done its duty under the law? 20 MR. MUSGRAVE: Object, Your Honor. That's an imprope 21 representation of the evidence. 22 THE COURT: Overruled. 23 Q (Mr. Carr) Do you conceive that Monsanto has played fair with the people of Sturgeon, its workers and the public? 1 MR* MSGRAVE:,' Object t the' question. Improper i "" 2 question* ' *i ; * L1 \' ? , , 3 A Certainly Mr* .Carr* -; ' ' r* s'. ' t J ' * . 1 * .-* * 4 ,J r 4 THE COURT? Overruled. . ' ,, :'! ,'.. 5 MR1 CARR? Your Honor. I'm ready to go to the next 6 point. 7 THE COURT: Okay, Then we'll break for lunch at this 8 time. , 9 Ladies and gentlemen w e *1 1 break for lunch at this time* 10 ,The admonishments that X give you during the other breaks will 11 apply during this one also* We'll resume again at 1:30. 12 Court's in recess for lunch. 13 (thereupon noon rcese was had.) 14 15 A 16 '4 " h 17 THE COURT? Mr. Carr, 18 19 (At this time Plaintiff* Exhibit Ho, 1314 was market, 20 for identification by the court reporter.) 21 22 Q (Mr. Carr) Hr, Hicks, or Mr. Park I'll hand you 23 what's been marked Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1314 which purports to 24 be a memo from a G* D. Stevens dated November the 2nd 1931 1 to 3U C* Richardson. and I* 11 ask you to look at that, please, 2 Do you recognise that as discussing the question of. at least 3 among other things, the question of dioxin in the product 4 2 ,4-diehlorophenol that Monsanto was engaged in selling to h^ ii *1 5 Diamond^ Shamrock? 1 ^ ^* 6 Mr. Carrr this la the first time I've seen it. Coulc 7 X take just one or two minutes to read it. please? 8 Q .Sure you can. r,' . ; ^ 9 MR. CARR: And while he1a doing that. Your Honor, 10 since it is a Monsanto Exhibit. X would Ilka to offer it into 11 evidence and pass it to the jury so we cannot waste any more 12 time with It. 13 THE COURT: Any objections? 14 MR. MUSGRAVEs Your Honor, we would object again. 15 It is 2.4-dichloropheno1. It is a document that's not authored 16 by this witness, nor was he copied in on it. We would object 17 to the document on the basis that it is not the product In 18 question, the subject matter of the lawsuit and lack of founda 19 tion for interrogation of this witness. 20 THE COURT: Mr. Carr, do you have anything you wish 21 to add? * 22 MR. CARR: Your Honor. It is relative to the chlorin 23 ated phenol. It is clearly one of their documents and Dr. 24 Wilson is the recipient of the memo. 1 THE COURTi Okay* It will be admitted over objection. 2 3 (At this tima Plaintiffs9 Exhibit No. 1314 was 4 admitted into evidence by the Court over objection.) 5 6 HR. HUSGRAVE s He was copied* 7 THE COURT You may pass it to the Jury. 8 MR. CARR: Thank you, 'Your'Honor. Did X give the 9 Court a copy?. 10 TOE COURT No. Thank you. II A Okay* Mr..Carr.; I've finished reading the document* 11 r :..r :. *< ' 12 Q I*is waiting for the jury to finish reading it. 13 A Sure. 14 Q Hr. Park* the document refers to & telephone call 15 that Mr. Stevens had with a Mr. Frank Hicks* who was the works 16 manager for Diamond-Shamrock at Tuscaloosa* Alabama? 17 MR. MUSGRAVE: Your Honor* may my-- 18 Q Is that correct* sir? 19 MR. MUSGRAVE May I object to the questioning of 20 this witness about what* interpreting this document* again a 21 document he did not author* and that the document speaks for 22 itself* and this gentleman did not author it* did not receive 23 a copy of it. There is no foundation that he participated In 24 any of the subject matter or the discussions that might be the 1 content of it, and also object to the hearsay that is container 2 in the document and add th hearsay objection, but I'd like 3 the other objection, if. overruled, be a continuing objection , 4 to the examination of this witness on that basis. '- h v .. 5 THE COUETs Fine. Those objections are overruled. 6 , They will be continuing objections to the entire course of 7 questioning. . ' ` '; (t ^ 8 A - Mr. Carr, I see where it, says subject. It says, 9 "Call report.M Is that, what you1re referring to? X don't 10 know. I don* t know whether this was a telephone call or what. 11 ,i ,'> V tr/r .*\ > * It's not clear to me, unies I missed something in my reading, 12 my first reading. 13 Q Well, whether it's [a,telephone call or what it is, 14 it refers to a contact with a Hr. Frank Hicks, who is the V '" '1 -1 h :' J - *\ ) 1 ` 15 Tuscaloosa works manager:for the Diamond-Shamrock.Company 16 located at Tuscaloosa, Alabama.^ You understand that, sir, 17 don't you, from reading, this? 4 j' r 18 A- It appears to be what it said in the memo. 19 Q And you, of course, know that Diamond-Shamrock is 20 a major customer of Ifonsanto, purchases 2,4-dichlorophcnol and 21. uses it to make 2,4-D? You know that, too, don't you, sir? 22 A, can see that In the memorandum. 23 Q You know that without seeing it in the mmo, don't 24 you, sir? r 1 f A I think I 've heard referent to it* Hr. Carr. I / j --2 don't deal with that part, of the company. 3 Q Well* Hr. Park* you had an important meeting on 4 January the ,7th, January the $th* 1981 in Which you discussed 5 at a TSCA meeting the fact' that Diamond-Shamrock was a major 6 purchaser of 2,4-dichlorophenol. Surely you remember that* sir 7 That was, the^ subject of that meeting:. Refer to Plaintiffs1 8 Eshibit 124ip if you \idilV sir. 9 A Would you bring, that? T, JO Q That's your signature on that exhibit* isn't it* sir? -11 - 12 ,13 - 14 15 16 - 17 " 18, v 19 20. .21 22 23 ` 24 A That's correct. /'. Q And you discuss there, dp you not, you state, do you not* "That the major purchaacr of dichlorophenolis Diamond- Shamrock and; uses it in the manufactur of 2 P4-D?n \ >r^ \ .r'-\ - ' A. That's correct; ; \v;V ' ' How, does .that refrush.your recollection, sir, as to Q' . 1 . ,T -if , y ,_ ; i ^ t hat you know about Diamond-Shamrock? \ A' Yesi it' does'?:-'.-yy!; ;j'' Q / All right; How* Hr. .Carr, this, memo discusses the fact that Diamond-Shamrock is, has used your DCF*' yotur dichloro phenol in. the past, doesn't it#J sir?'' A Lot me find that, hr. Carr. Xfc appears to me to be contemplating future supply, of 2 ,-4~dichlorophanol. Q Could you look at the second paragraph* air*, where it r u '3NNOAV0 1 tells you that It can't uaa your product In making 2,4-D because 2 It's got too much dioxin In it? That they have to uae it for 3 making something called amine or amine or whatever it is. 4 A Which-- 5 Q Paragraph number two. 6 A Yes. Which sentence, Mr. Carr? 7 Q The last one-*fourth of paragraph number two. 8 A All right. 9 Q In 1981 Diamond was able to use Monsanto 2,4-DCP only 10 in the production of amine products. 11 MR. MUSGRAVE i Object to Counsel's ml characteriza 12 tion, because he added because it had dioxin in it. It doesn't 13 say that in the sentence. 14 MR. CARR: Well, if you read a little bit farther 15 you will see it. 16 Q (Mr. Carr) It goes on to say, does it not, "In 1982 17 Diamond will be able to use Monsanto product to make amine, 18 ester and dry 2 f4-D formulations. This is contingent on our 19 ability to consistently provide 95 percent low dioxin material. N 20 Doesn't it say that, sir? 21 A Yes, it does. 22 THE COURTi Objection is overruled. 23 Q (Mr. Carr) Now, the paragraph numbered three talks 24 about the fact that, brought up at your examination by Mr. 1 Musgrave the other day, that 2,4-D has got to meat carC:4 in 2 requirements in Canada and that Diamond says their 2,4-D has 3 been approved for sale In Canada. You see that, sir? 4 A Yes, sir, I see that. 5 Q And they've upgraded their label to read dioxin-free. 6 Do you see that also? 7 A I see that. 8 Q And It discusses how they made changes In their plant 9 In order to avoid the possibility of dioxin production? 10 A I see that. II Q And you know from earlier exhibits that Dr. Wilson 12 discussed that change that they were going to use a toluene 13 method of making 2,4-D that would prevent the formulation of 14 dioxin, or do you know that? 15 A I don't recallthat, Mr.Carr. 16 Q You don't recall that. Well, it's not important at 17 this point that you do recall. But in any event, they tell 18 you Dow's material has been, and that's the material that we 19 discussed In this memo 1302A, that Dow's material has been 20 certified to be within acceptable dioxin mlnimums. You see 21 that, too, don't you, sir? 22 A I don't think they're talking about the same thing, 23 Mr. Carr. Their placard here, I think, deals with the labora 24 tory samples. i'V 83 1 Q Well, that!s'^whit .you're,, suggesting, but this, talks ,2.- about 2,4-dlchlorophenol, doesn't it, air, and they're talking 1- * j* ; * i 'ii ' - \*% ' ' - ' ^ . > . 3' about a purity of a special lab distilled lot by the manufacturer. 4' They're talking about.six one-gallon pails? 5 A Yea, apparently. '6 Q They're talking about the presence of 2,4-dichloro- " " t 1 .* j % ' ' 7 phenol, and I wonIt even insist that you agree to that, sir. 8 They're talking about that Dow's material has been certified 9 to be within acceptable dioxin tainimums, aren't they, sir? 10 A Yes n Q And the next sentence says that they analysed one of 12 . your 2,4-DGF tank cars and found that it was high in dioxin. 13 Do you see that, sir? '" 14 A Right* He says that that's what Mr. Harwell of the 15 r Diamond-Shamrock plant;reported. ' ' 16 Q And as far as you know that's true, isn't it, sir? 17 A X have no idea whether it's, true or not, Mr. Carr.' 18 .. Q Well, you know that the past 2,4-dichlorcphenol 19 produced by Monsanto is;shown by this Inhibit 1301A is indeed 20 high in dioxin. You know it-from this'evidence, don' t you, sir" 21 You know that it had 48,000, 50,000 parts per billion of dioxin 22 in it? You saw. the document, your own company* s report that 23 said it, didn't you, sir? 24 A You showed me a document. I ,see the number on there, J Mr. Carr. 2 Q It :vas your company' s analysis. It wasn't mine. It 4" * 1/ "* J 3 wasn't Diamond-Shamrock." It was your company's analysis, wasn't: 4 it* sir? - ;, * ; 'v T 5 A Sir, I don't know more than what you have put on the . 6 exhibit here. - ( *4r*i * *'' ' 7 Q Well, you do lenow more than that, because you saw 8 the document. I gave the exhibit to you. 9 A You did give me the exhibit, 10 Q .And it was Monsanto's analysis that I gave you, wasn't: : , jJ - * 11 it, sir? Each of those exhibits that I gave you were analyses 12 performed by Monsanto's employees, Monsanto1s.analytic chemists , 13 weren't'they, sir? 14 A Mir* Carr, I rcan't recall, but if you state they were IS I will accept that. 16 Q Mo. No, Mr. Park. Do you need to see the memo1 that 17 was produced? . 18 A If you tell me that that was-- 19 Q Mr. Park, I'm not willing to have you take it on my 20 word. 21 A I don't recall; 22 Q You don't recall seeing an exhibit? 23 A I do recall seeing exhibits: 24 ' Q Prepared by Monsanto for each and every one of these , .7 *- 1 rr <*'- 85 ;* ; 7 1 7 except the exhlbit preparcd by the University of Nebraska that 'j `7 s V '-V found s higher content than any of your exhibits found* You ,JL- ;, w t 1 r ` -',-' ` L- ` .; ' ` V. * . -;->r , rt - *, ` . " > 7 3 :; ^don*t recall me'showing you an",exhibit for each of those, Mr7>c* S-> 1 ' t' 'j. . ->t 4 7 J^ r.- '` ` 7 V-.` ir ' t ^ ^ J, ;7 7 -' : - 6 *. T . 4\ J >arfc? - .77 7 7 ' / 7 v 7 s ; ; 7 V - / ' A '-Mfcv Carr,7 l7said'^"do7raB' seeing orn exhibit. ,: ' A">, _ j-v 13/-; ;M , vV 5--/V '' t ''**"i '' " ' 7 -i j ' .Z^ ...' t> ` - .1 ,;,vr ^ ; , 1 V' ^ X, dOn9t''ral^^O':p ^ he^awlyticalr^ . -7'^7^ 7' V 77: Q D%.you1'recognise,tie :mimbesJhere HB541. as being ''7' . J- " l'..7ri*`!;7.7 ;</\v^rr7^":77 7 7 : 7'7 '7 ":'*V\' 7'7 ^; V- ''7-': 8 V- \Monsanto's number7 gir? L 7/,-' - 7 ;7 .-" ,^7 '7 `. :' 'v - - 9/. " : 7 - ; A- '7S>;r'I:.-'doa*t-t rr';' 7'? '; v7 7 -;7 7 7 .,v ^7; .* t *J i . > v: ?^.v'7 * ' ""r io;.( ^t 7'. Q ^Bo you .need,to^ see;theae documents agin? 7 - 7 , , 7'.- 'c;'..v.`-.(^- 7-\- '- A 7 VSo^ If you, re. cotinsel to letate that those numbers . 7i 7 i ^ . V-,'" . '' A ^ y -r'yV-. r'rj' : *" 77 " 'V-- -7 , 're:correctr-;-^_'7 :*. , :u>:` 7 -"' ' '"*77 "77- 77 7 ''* /v ,- \ 7 i3 ;; 1J Q 7;No7 'Hf. Prk. X ^ not willing to go on/that basis. ' '7 ... -' l l ' ' ``u 1 * V J,'1, ^ ,, ; r> 1 r ' . k `t15 ^ ^ l* '1 I want you to remember ;that you saw the documents;. I want you ^ 7 7 7 7 ' 15; .<*, #i ^ to .testify to the truti,, because you know you saw those dbcii* . 7 "16 7 T y 7 7 - ' 7 : 7 7 7r- 7 7/f7 .",77; \77^'/- ,7V 1-77- 7 7 :'-;;7; ^ 'mentsV-y 7777;7777777;-,'77; 7 `7 v7/;^ 77 . - 7 77J" 7 ;"*:"l;'7 ':s" 7 o- J , r: ,,i' 1 >< op .* * ' `1 A :"" lr.'Carr/ -i-'m simply stating^ '' \ ' . -7'" 7j;r.- ;,*r\7. 7- 7"''7`'7 7 7 ^ :\.v :, ''r'..L-'- 7 *14 * / J| , .' -' HE.". lSGkAVE?'^ X object. Your Honor; to this badger* i ' - 19 B,,>, . ^ , 'V , v ing; '7 I object to Counsel* e badgering' the witness. fe has . 7..' ': 20 'Asked, the witnees the question. -.lie has answered to the best P ENCAD CO, 7 *; 2io ;. of his ability.; Mr. -Carr Insists n o w t h a t :he should answer fee J 7 >.7;7 7 7 - ' 1` r . V,L ` - 7 '~23:y 7 7 . Q ^ 7 7 7 y.', - . . J." 775.247 -ViV 7 (Mr* Carr) let.ma ..refresh your recollection. J, - . ; '.J. - . ,.tv* .; r - J J , M7 MSGRAVE7 7 Jwst7a tBC^nt> Your, Honor*7, > -`r. 1 THE COURT: Objection is overruled. You ay continue, 2 Mr. Carr. 3 Q (Mr. Carr) Do you see the document X135B? Do you . 4 -remember seeing that before? * Do. you remember seeing the smaller 5 part of it, sir? The one that wasn't blown up from which it 6 was taken, How, is your memory refreshed, Mr. Park? 7 A I can dimly remember that.. You've shorn.me a great 8 many documents that I have not seen before I came here, Mr. Car r ' -r '* r i^ J 9 and I'm trying to recall that; That was part of a.Honsauto 10 document? 'r'; / \ "I * y ''- `,rJ'; " \ ^ `---Vi i" *. 11 Q Yes. " * 1 `V " . 12 A I'm simply stating' I. don't know who performed the 13 analyses, Mr. Carr, In response to your question, 14 Q No, Mr. Park, because what you said before, you 15 challenged what they said. You challenged their finding. 16 That's the only reason X brought it up, because you said, well, 17 that's what Diamond-Shamrock said, and if you had .not challenge^ 18 it, Hr. Park, I would not have brought this out to remind you 19 that your company found high dioxin levels in your 2,4-DCP. 20 You challenged it, and that's the reason I brought it out, so 21. that's a challenge to that statement. You are suggesting that 22 somehow Diamond-Shamrock Is not telling the truth? 23 A I wasn't challenging anything, Mr. Carr* X was just 24 pointing out that it was Diamond-Shamrock that had reported it. 1 Q And that's exactly what X read to you, that it was 2 Diamond-Shamrock that analyzed it? 3 A That's right*. 4 Q And Indeed these exhibits show that Monsanto has 5 2,4-dichlorophenol that's high in dioxin content, don't they, 6 sir? 7 A X wouldn't say it was high. It contains dioxin. 8 Q But you don't say that 50,000 parts per billion Is 9 high? If you don't say that, that's your privilege, Mr. Park 10 A . Well, now he doesn't-- ` U Q Are you saying that 50,000 parts per billion is not 12 high? \ :/' :;i; 13 A Mr Carr,-- , ^ \ *m ' " i' . p ' ", t. i1 * i* r 4 ' 14 MR;MUSCEAVEi-1'Objection, Your Honor, to Counsel's IS reference to that document, which X .previously objected to 16 because of m y basis of the misrepresentation about the levels 17 also being noted in connection with Mr, Carr's question which 18 now assumes the correctness/of that, and X object to Counsel's 19 statement to that effect. 20 THE COURT: Your objection is noted. 21 MR. MUSGRAVE: I assume it's overruled. 22 THE COURT: ' It is.. 23 MR. MUSGRAVE: Thank you. 24 THE COURT: As were the prior objections, yes. 88 J '1 -, : V JL %r e. } l 4- A As,one who, la not an analytical chemist, let's see, that would be SO parts- per,million. 'X.would not consider that -* j ~r . ' ' 1 v - , V; - - ' ,. ^j `high. 1 / '"/ / 1 -, :/ \ 1 ^ ^ 1 *1 ^ -** Q And that, of course, is/the;philosophythat followed^ ; 5 that you've been consistently following at Monsanto? Could 1 V' - ' *'i1- 'P'*1 *' - V * * ,' * / '* '! 6 you acceptfor a moment-- ^ ; V ' y; ;. ' v7' ' - /MR>, MUSGEAVE: -Just a moment/ Mr. Carr. /Is" that a ' . ,, ^ r, -' **`*' " :` , //' ; . P * *' u *-/ *' m } ' ' 1- ta-y . 8- -, question? JIf it is hot a question-- 1 . ,v\ 9,- : 10 / ' Q MR^ CARRt Yes, :it ;is a question. , (Mr. Carr) That is the philosophy that, you have been ;following:in behalf of Monsanto in the job that you've been 12/ ' performing for tionsanto in making tho determination of .whether 13 or not che EPA, should be notified of th dioxin, levels of your 14 products/isn't that Correct? ,/ , J 15/ 1 16 J^ ^j ( r ^ ^ ^ J'^ ,r p ^ ^^ i ^ *"j - A - No/ Mr; Carr, that was simply ,` W.* * * \V" J - J J ' rj- \ , , > / 1 - ..1. ' l. ' .question;.".^ /'/-.;/ V H' L 1 1 a response to -L V p ' 1 ' VJ / j ` 1 r` V r your / ^ ''' ` ^ V, ^ " -17 ; . Q You haven't been.following that philosophy? Didn't , ' . - ' **'",' ; ` , *>,1 ,/ -V--- 'j-"! / ,` , ' / , ]l-8 we establish .yesterday,.Mr. Park, that you believed you were < iy - ' *19 hot obligated to report to>the EPA if your 2,4-dichlorophenol ,20, .contained 0 percent of; dioxin, and spilled in^-no, it didn' t rA 21 spill-- and was' shipped,out to be made lnto3Lysol?, Didn' t we , 2 2 "go through all that yesterday and didn't you say that you . 23 v ' ,believed you were undek no obligation to report that to the EPA " 2 4 / under Section 8(e)? Did I dream .that up? / / * BAYONNE, N,J, 0 7 0 0 2 FORM IL 2 4 ''V 'C,,'-'LV if;.'/ 89 ..i- PH :V t. A ^ 5, And it did not;^spilli - r/ ' - i :: ' ; / , .f/ !* \ !*1 'V JQ , Yesi ,it did not pili, *' ' Z'3"" - A Yes, that's correct. Under X (e) . ' : ...... ;lv.v , V 5 \ '-v- - . ^ < .. _ , . 4 Q .;And, M r . Parle,-,dp? you accept thatrother person* ; ", ` , ? . ,, ? . ' j . ^ ^ '' ? V . ^ 1 ^ ' J L"r . , ' - ' ' "j,h. 1 \ 'r the people making the product that' s going to he sprayed on the 6 , .people's lawns,might disagree with your definition, f whether i i- . - It is high:dioxin content or hot? J; <"> . 10 '_/ _ , . ' I "',. 1, \ ` 1- ' 5 ? - 'J . . r r MR*. MUSGRAVE r, *TelX, X object to that as calling for ? V^ ,speculationrnd corijctt^'^ of ^ d o r othew, i a to what-thy heliev"and:don! t believe; ?v r - !> - i~ ,r ; -f ^ " , L r ' . . / t ' ' "t ' r k. _ *- - . n; v .THE COURT: Objection's overruled, . . 'r ? PCNGAO C O ,, ` B A Y O N N E . - N.J. A Mr.. Ccrr, anyone can disagree with you. . 13: ^ :Mr . .Park, and you see that Diamond-Shaiarock when ; \ i j|-' V `L`. '! *:V :Ly. ./' 'v,' 14 they discovered that your product had what they called high; / . -i <-ri ' 1V - --y *' -v ` ' ' * . ;`v iT>' ' ' - r'. 1 i5>; ^r r - , ? - t. .* ` ^ . 1 r Vv , . levels of dioxin in it, ithoy .didn't: use-it for 2,4-D* r LJ- \ - -J They / '* "> ` . ' -? l '. V J'1 ' ' rj J. 1,1 '' ^ '* ^' 16 ; ` `. : said, i w'rf nt . -, - * T, 1 ; going to put, that in ' the ' ' ' - 't'L r ' r ' -r " bottlesthat.people, f 17.-V are going to -spray on their lawns ..ad ;their dandiilons and 18 V y ' r' ^they're gbM|; (to'^wallsToh knd/ they^^ to ait -on. They had 19 ' ?V>'v i^ozsiaclon ^and -they 'acted, accordingly'; didn't tHey, six? 20 , ^ - , + * it v v -j r -* 1 ?.: .A WGll,y;'they dn*t\aay1thah finJthe memorandum, Hr, Carr 21 ! ' , Q. Oh, they don't .say that? You don't see that, sir, 22 -, in there? A. ^ 1/ ^ ` 23 il.-.; k '.-.J Not all that you just stated, Mr. Carr. " ./.*'-. i)24?. ' ^ ^ Q - You ;don 't ,see ;that they, said before in the earlier " ' - 'V . ; V: -; j. / y ' \ V* J : *- V '\J, . j r ` ; * V r; i;- " rAj S / ,- / i ' . J '* - 90 'y ^ ^ ' '` V/ ' ; . ^ ,S. "... . _"'V 'y ''' * s. yy ./_-v-- '' y >, ` - / ''"*!' ' \ '' r' ' S I *V paragraph that,they .Were able to use"your 1981 production only; .'i v J\-.-`>lj. 'r:.. - r T'-..'r, Yr ^ v 'S' -2 in the production of amihe product? - 'L-.- ^ .^ --x"-1," \ \^ /'S 3 V A I jdo^eee that*"'"-.`""iW'- - - . . V, \H '.^ Q And isn't this memo taiking about that they analysed j. ' L r - ^ - ' , r fjr"^ , ** ' V-l ^ 'm ' ' `i ^ ;1 * ? L 1,1F *" .s 5 '*'one of your )2tArDGP -tank' cats-and found It high ih dipxin? 4f lV 'Tr'V \tj Q -. And they didn* t. use.it' then except for the amine- Vy- ;;yy / y *.\y :}yy'^-" , ^_ r`'- -y i . >r\ -/% %8/ product ish1' that ;correcty:.sir?; Doesn't that follow* Mr*. ,, .1 r , _ - !r i. >- J,L,` t ,r Ij . - " ' ; . f ' ,rJ.* .y ;.9- ; \ . "A ; -,fif; ;arr, I 'm in no pos ition' to ;go beybhd. the.Words - 10 V ^o^ this Memorandum. r \ 'y-o/^y "; 4 1,t * - Il . J : Q. v ,And, that's perfectly, fine with me. ThatV all I*m y/ j/ rf *" *.'*v S. 12-'. : v *'- ,/yyi' '-y/y;-\ .-w,. r .asking, y'Dsh't'-'thi^*.-;''"^ y.T ** _ ' ^ y ^i r' ^ ^^ ^'j . \ i ' t t j-` 1 ^ j; ^ *y'V-- '*' ' - / yj 'lc , ilvj; 'I , - -13 ' .'/;.MR. MUSGRAVEi ; M b je c t ,, You're asking `him': more, Mr. Carr. .You!r "asking M m ' to/g6 beyond t h a t .id to apeculate i^ JJ x Ct O *H w, / ,,,i 1 , Mi--' and draw conelusions ..as to .what' th`document says/beyond wh&t 1 6* - e ^ 1- TV - y ',* ,, * f i . .F * ^v - -> t** . i . / i-4 v ' J V l\ 7 ; ^ . j. ^ 1 4 ^ . " " y ,* % -, th words Vsaf Mty Garr/ and 1 object that Counsel is in fact v s v `. \% O ,<i.. ` -- r* ,- ' asking him\tp-^gp;M e y o n d j&at^ if he hasn ft.asked him ;to go jO Z'-8 c' beyond- that then my objection should have.been-sust^ed;.. zz ^' ^r t ; ' 19-> : /y-1*" . PE CXiUKT:; ;.Objection Vis overruled. You may continu, -, - '' J. \ - " " l .PEN GAD CO.. .- 20 ? lr^Garri" 1^ *y v'y-yv'y- / .y : y^iy^ 1 r y y -:'\l y V / y - 'i ,, t * , y V . 21 s y ^ r Q (Mr. 'Carr) Doeen't thie document tell you that they v s' i;-,-'yyyr-"- f v v J p ^ s : y-y; ' .yo *v ' .22-/- used the 2iArDCPVof.Monsanto, only, in /the production of amine ; k" -s_ _ * _t, ^ i-1 * ' , *-* ^t 1-j ^ l>i j r ^ . 23! e>- ^ - : -24 rpfeduett-- ' ` y y . / -- " :'- ' S ) i ] v" / / v1 i\.:-:-fS..XZ\ ,</,..-{r <'.Ti.V` -''* *~,r ///'- ./ 41C\/V*,' - :91 , > -' . . I-'' , ' Q -v/- =/ ; ;/ iV / / / , i /'/ ';'//- v ' v . * V 1 1> y XV -t -Lv:,.Jr 1 'V. -_>'V*~' -v; JJ-, Look in, the/second paragraph,'the socond to last .;',2 L Sentence in the paragraph/. .//- ; ./ ';* . -i./ ' \ 'i , /"> ' 'V- '*-.>' /- : A /Uh'huh* Okay, It says in 1981 Diamond vaa able to r/ 4 1. ** ;s,` use Monsanto 2,4-DCP only in the production of,/and I believe that's mine'product."/ / - -- . 6 Q Exactly what it: bays, isn't.it, sir? .. -7'` A .1 tried to read it. , , / '/ -.8." Q. How, is it fair reading of that to say that since they 9 ; Used it; only in amine product that they did not use it in 2,4-D1 ; 10 ' A In: 1981? ! V ' V\'v/>/- ' r / V ' V ;-v f i . , / Q y Yea. . Is'that fair? - ,/ j ;> 12. r __ ^ ;" A I would accept that.,/ : / */ ./- v 13 Q ; And, of course, you notified theta' in following your 14 '* ' * ** r \^ ' *r ' January the. 6 th, 1981 meeting that sphere was dioxin in your 15. \ #' , , 16 17 ' product, didn't you,: sir? Look at the memo. 1241 that I gave you, sir. V v '-1 * .. - / V : A Eight-'. The 'memorandum ends .With a,recommendation US/s that customers be advised of th above-described analytical v-. , V n y n ;v` . "/ . > ... / . `` ' 19: '-result. . '/ f;/V; ^ ' / / ;- 1 , '/*' r\ 20 ' t Q 'And you know that Diamond-Shamrock was advised, 21 don't you, sir? You don't know that? 22 A That would be beyond my area, of responsibility, Hr. 23/ J p -- ' -m` r * -*r r Garr. I would assume that; it was done. . i 24' Q if ib wasn't done it should have been done, shouldn't F E N G A D C O . , B A Y O N N E . . N . J . OTOOZ FORM I L Z A B n y\ J- 1 it, fir? 2 A It was recommended by the coranlttee that it be done. 3 Q Would you mark this at an exhibit? 4 5 (At this time Plaintiffs* Exhibit No. 1315 was marked 6 for identification by the court reporter.) 7 8 Q (Mr. Carr) Handing you what's been marked Plaintiffs 9 Exhibit 1315. I'll ask you to take a look at that, sir. 10 MR. CARR: Ask leave while he's looking at it, Tour 11 Honor, I'll offer it Into evidence and ask leave to pass copies 12 to the Jury. 13 MR. MUSGRAVEi Same objection as before, Your Honor. 14 It deals with the 2,4-dichlorophenol. It doesn't deal with the 15 product in question in the lawsuit. 16 THE COURT: Okay. It's admitted over objection. You 17 may pass it to the jury. 18 19 (At this time Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 1315 was admitt< 20 into evidence by the Court over objection.) 21 22 A I've read the memoranda, Mr. Carr. 23 Q I'm waiting for the jury to read it, Mr. Park. 24 Now, Mr. Park, to put it in proper time frame of reference s'V ` . * MJV**v . .!- u-* ," 'yJ, * ,%1 ,r^-"p ' ,, J r * J" ,,* * J) L 'Vr^'*'*' ' a '-V _ 1 * s. - 1 ` on January the 7th, 1981 your 'committee meets and, you say that ,y r \3 4 * 5 the major purchaser of dichiorophenol* Diamond-Shamrock, uses i. - l ' 'V- r it in the manufacture of 2 * 4-D, :correct, sir? *jJFe J- ^ ^*t* % \ 1* ' f' * y' ,, , 4 1 ^J *rv-1t. J , . *. ' A r , `Correct, . v -- -;' ' ^, > .? y - ' ' s * C 1v *i 1 * ^ r ; * . , ' ' 1 \lr ' y '> > . -?' , V ' jf ' V' * \ . - .* ; ., Q You.notified^^th^vtbat?V that clearly, says that 6 jC < r- 7; they are u s I t ' '^ertofp^e^in;,the. manufacture ;b / 2 ^ p r ; ` *1%1(y, y. 1jl 4 4^ ' Jml , i ; y1 ja- 'i. \11*4-' riit^,,. ^~ LN^ \ j * , , ' y.i1 -' n*j doesn't it, .sir? They're 'saying they "use it in the present - 8 tense, sir? '* . y . 9 r 1 ' ` vi '-j 1 1'-i1'01F ' , ~ v - A '''Tnat"s cbrrety.; v. v " -J '* r'\'. . ^ ' /"/' y ~ 1', 'V:: >10 ; Q And you vrite them a letter- in March 17th, 1981 and 11 12", you tell theitt that y o u r 2 *A- dichlorophenol has ,dioxin iri it,,y , xt r`j , ' `h t ' don't you/ sir? l '-SJ' / ; ' 13 14 - r.A- lhat'a .correct^;, y;, Q "And then you l e a m in .November 2nd, 1981 that in 1981 15 Diamond wasable to use. Monsanto 2,4-DCF only in the production 16 ", of amine product, correct, sir? y '17' A They don't say why they-duly used It,there, but they \18 ' *_ v 'do say---. `v, "-. . 'V: v 19 , Q H r . 7 Park, would you please respond to my question? 20 ,A -They say-- ' .." 21. ; Q vTHey say that* they were-- / You were able to use .it, - ,22 was able to use it only;in the production of amine product* j' 23 . -doesn't itysir? ^ / * . ,, ,, . - -l V ` ". .. . 1 ,, - r 24 Ys, y/.V* PCMGAD C O ,. Q Aro NN E, N.J. 0 7 0 0 - 1V; 1 Q How,`they were1Informed.that It had1dioxin ;in it, and 2. .they determlned and-it wao not.used thereafter in 1981 in using # -J r - j, 3 on 2,4-D, in making 2,4-i), la that correct, sir, so far as you 4 can see' from, thse-'document? J \/ 'r -L^ - -, // . 5 ,; The document;Indicates that, in 1981 Diamond used . . ' ,6 ' Monsanto 2,4-DCF only iri the'"production of amine product. . ( -. . v . -_ r' /^ r O- :X Q It also says they vers;only,'Vas able to use it only - 1 ^ ' ' ir 'J ^ -` | - j V- * *. "> . . ^ : 1 - .. , -' 1i i ' 8 In the production oftit, dbesri';t\it,?sir? i`X: <) i;-; ' 9 ; A Yea. "io* a A ' s : *\: < ` ' ' V fcj*.** Q VeSi ; And they vdpted; not to put it in a product, not 11 to use It in making a product that's sprayed on people's lawns, 12 didn't they, sir, because they, or whether they did It because 13 or not, they had information indicating that it had dioxin in 4 /it, Isn't that right/ s i r ? - _, ;/. r 15 MR. KUSGPVE ; Object;.. Speculation and conjecture. *;j , ^ X t^ ^ i . *\ \ ' v p- i 16 T^s; COURT? Overruled. 17 ' /There1s no indication here, as to .why,,In 1981, Diamond 18 used the Monsanto 2,4-DCB only,-in the production of amine 19 .product;; 20 \ :Q /; is there any indication,that they wanted to use It J ar in .1981 in making 2,4-D formulations? 22 A Vell9 they may have expanded their facility. 23- Q. '. Excuse me., Could.you.answer;that question, please? 24 A Wo.. It,says, "In ,1982 Diamond will be able to use FO flM IL 2 4 B ,,t 95 1 Monsanto product to make amine, ster and dry 2,4-D formulations .ir ' 2- Q Contingent upon'what occurring; Hr. Park? 7 , 1 , 3 , 'A "This is contingent, on olir, ability to consistently :4 . provide 95 percent low dioxin materiel*" End of quote, '5\ Q: 'Now,"'Mr, Park,`doesthatlead you to' the conclusion, ' ,' / ';' '*. ;/" ' -: . :`k- ` 6 this document lead youtothe conclusion that they were able to ; 7 'use it in 1981 only in,tnaking amihe product,and that ;they would 8 be able to s' it'in 1932 only if Monsanto is able to give,them ' 9 low dioxin material? .Isn't that a fair reading of the document, : 't io 1 , -Mr. Park? i/TJ ' '1 .i/r.'.'-i*"* f U- ^ -f 1 }f - ,v " ' . ' .. , a ,/ . . \ V' 1 ' , . ;.; 'May, I deal with the two. parts of. yor. question > 1 r" .. *v-" .ti.;-. S"; fi'- \ rr ' , .i .r *r j-'-' f i \r " : -/' 7`^ V- t - 12 separately, please? ^Looking at the November 2nd memorandum, 13 ' Mr; Carr, 'it;gives"no;reason.why Diamond used Monsanto 2,4-DCP ^ \ \-V-^ ,Isyjf-'yi k u; {>' ^ ; ' * 14;. only in the production of mine product, but then:it goes on to 15 say, to indicate, and X.cari,paraphrase this*,that Diamond's 16 us of Monsanto product ih l9$2 to make amine, ester and dry 17 2,4rD formulations was, is contingent upon Monsanto ability to e '/ 18:. consistently provide 95 percent low dioxin material. -- - 'V 19 / Q Yes. And there's'additional little bit of informa 20 . tion that you can use,in.cpming to your conclusion. Turn to,1 21 th secondpage; .Page two of thie report, paragraph five. 22 ,' " ** . % ' > ` r- - J S**1 \ * " * . 1 - `,, S ,* * , \* -. , . y ' 'I 1 '' ' - ^ - ^ -See If that doesn't help you in making that conclusion, Mr, 23., Park* ^ 1 V,; V .r*... - " .'V-,- ` ,: 24 A* .-,X was .paraphrasing what was in the raetaoranducu P EN GAO CO ., BAYONNE, 'N,J 94 :i Q / Now, they were: informed t h a t it haddloxin in it, and ,2 . . 3. they determined and.it!was not u^ed thereafter in 1981 in using on 2,4-b; in making 2,4-b, is, that correct, sir, so far as you .4 ..//5 can see from these documents? ' V : * y y ;/ A The document indlcates that 1x1,1981 Diamond used 1 6` ;8 ,';,y .10* Monsanto ^2 ,4-DCF "only ihrthe"''production of amine product.-, T r .' , .,*.' ij,, ,, 'A a si** *i j--s '--.A , ,j',;V.', ,;'- ' -'y? ,,i . " _ > j , . _ ' i l v ' *< [ T, _ ' f *S * _ ' r , * .r , r- y Q It also says they were -only y ;was able to use it only - " _ ,',,X '' . y y L - y y 'y `y y ^ y .a , y in the production of:it, d b e s n ' t y t y sir? L -- A' a . .. 'v V/\y 'y > - W " V/r,-,-' y j" "i5' / V \A-yVVes., * i-y y y ^ vy* , r -" ,' - ' ^ J ^ ' ' T 1V r ` F. ` * ' r -a ^ ~ " t~ * ^ 1 v *^ ^ p ^ , ' * ' y - ^i ~ Q Yes;^ And 'they Voptednot :,to, put it in a product , not < ii to useifc in making a product that's sprayed bn people's lawns, 12 didn't they, sir, because they, or whether they did it because ; 13 or hot,; they had information indicating that it.had dioxin.in, !4 ` 15 ^J 16 it, isn't that right; sir2 ! r -T, -i ^, .1 J '' MR. MUSGRAVE: Object;,. Speculation and conjecture * ^ ^ ;THEr COURT: Overruled; ^ / * 17; A- 'There's no indication here as to why,, in 1981, Diamond "l8 '" l *ri ^ T11 \' ' r'*;-"/v^ -^*. j, , yil - ^'r . ,j' ** Lh used the j^santb 2V4-BCR only; in the production of amine . 1 9 product; ,s '.'^ y t * ." "' r \` \ ' - \r "L. ' 20 Q r Is there any indication,that they wanted to use it :21` in 198i in making 2,4-D formulations'? \ 22 A Well, they:may have eKpanded' theirV facility. ; i '2 3 Q ' Excuse me* Could .you answer that, question, please? J - 24 A No*. It says, Inl982- Diamond w i llbe able to use. P E N G A O co'.. BAYONNE, N.J.. O700J F O R M IL* 24 B Monsanto product t make amine, ester and dry2,4~D formulatiom Q Contingent upon what,occurring # Mr. Park? ; \ Av "This is contingent 6h our ability to ccnslstehtly provide 95 percentlow End of quote* , i" ' Q "Now, Mr.- Park, doea that lead you to the conclusion,'. this document1lead you,to the conclusion that they wereableto use it in 1981 only in making- amine product,and that they would be able t o u s e it in 1982 o n l y l f Monsanto is able to give ,them low dioxin material? In't that ' fair reading of the. document " v.' ;/ 'Mr. Park? ?; >- . v ` -, .A; . May. 1^ deal with the two parts of your question 'r^ ;. -f/ :. ; ../ o' r. . *; c'" --'* ., - j;< 1 oV *< ' ' J V * ` ` V\ separately, -please? ^looking `at the November 2nd memorandum, . Mr. Carr, it i>give sino .reasonwhyDiamond used Monsanto 2 #4-DCP. only in the production of amine product, but then it goes on to s a y Jto indicate, and l ean paraphrase ~t h i s t h a t 'Diamond*s use of Monsanto product in 1932" to make. amine, ester and dry 2,4-D formulation was, is contingent upon Monsanto ability to consistently provide 95 percent loir dioxin material. ' Q Ye. And there's"additional little bit of informa* tion that you can use in. coming to your conclusion. Turn to . th second page. Page two of .this report, paragraph five. See if that doesn't help you in makingsthat conclusion, Mr* Parle* ; * ;v ^ \ ^ iri*''.. A .. X was paraphrasing wht was in .the mmorandum. -, ; \' \ l , 1- r 96 *1 Q You d id n 't paraphrase the second p ag e,-p arag rap h fiv e ^S-*/^'' 2 though, did y o u P a r k - y ; 3 A . No, ' *y v!`:/>.-/-- ' ' ; - . -,y ;/y y ' 4 . Q Paragraph f iv e .tells" you th a t Mensanto p re s e n tly rhas ,v .y " : . '*.777-7 V - 1 r ' / . Y; - ` "r " * - -* - r7-./-. *' / ` ;5 a. tan k e a r r i g h t now o 2 ,4- d ichlorophenol, 93 p e rc e n t 2 ,4 - d ir ' r. 6 / chlorophenol; loaded and, ready to sh ip ; b u t th a t th e m a te ria l *;': 7y 1 would have to be segregated, a d u a e d only in amine p ro d u ctio n . ' 8 \ What does th a t isean to you,h r . P ark?: ' : /* V 9^;: r* " ;101#J-,H/ A J "That would use th is this car m aterial could be shipped _to Diamond, only in amine production. but they li y Q And; th e y would n o t be rahIs to, us i t in ' th e production u ; !? '* o f 2,4-D, i s n 't th a t c o rre c t? , . 7,y/ . ,, . ,, - 13 .14 15 . . . ' ;'vr; 5: K \ \ ,-,7' /..y v ' .- '" Ly A.^`j\-^^",.^1"1-d"o n't * f^*kvnow*/ *wAFr+h~fKe thv.--e`*r** .r ^t*h^ey',<1*1w^o^u' l'd f : Q' . ' - r "S u,') ir? vS u . , . ' :v, i/ /h ' ;; r "iy* ry. . y .; - H ere} i t (says-yy:\ r } ^ s ;fy ^ .` o r .n o'*tt .*t.j|>. r' ->^ "y^y'` ., ' -'.;.-r-V,'-*- \ . f '/ y / r ; , ;' y *- r> t, ' ^ aot t 16 ; , Q ' . Could you ,,.answer,th a t ^question, p le a se , Hr.;*'park? 5 j _ a \ ::j.y y1 x ^ V s - .*! oO3 ' -" f -17J-, . And n o t be. ab le .to -u se ,X t--`C S ir? * ; . BAYONNE; . N ,J, 2, ^ , / ;i8 r y ' -V %. ; A, ^ That re q u ire s, sp e c u la tio n on; my p a r t as to wht was to ** , 19 ` ` ** /in th e .mind o f th e au th o r, ; .../; _ 0 /. 14 _5 S c*-2*0 . : 1 21" r 11. Q j *-r*Yjoyu h aj v e t *,t o-r.*s%p"e*cuyvl a,,*tle , w1^h*e"rre th e y,, ,say r.trhe m aterial vh 4 would have to ' ib' ^se g re^g a_Vt'e d-;-and used only I *p" ' f am, in'e.,,production? r - 22 /.j ^ The word only V- *4 ~~j ^ means e x c lu siv e ly , " *--**l ' doesn't 1' ' I - > it/Park J ? , 'V 23 ` MRv/Z4USGRAVsy Haybe he doesn' t know what amine &> 24 p ro duction i s , Kr. C arr. y ' v ' t, ,V /' ^. . '* - T' * r "y , , . 1 i, ," 2 r* ^,'fL-*'*Fi* * c^ , - ,J ' 97 l ..MR. CARR: Sir?- V.' r S ' '2 ';' . , MR. -'MUSGRAVEt ,/Maybe he doesn'tknow tihat line 3 production la. Do you know? ^ > 1 - V `i * . 'i -i^ - - 1-` V LJ ' 4- MR4.GARR1 I`dou*1 care what it is. It'enot 2,4-D ,,1 y~ r r *r " 5- production.":^ - ,/ , i, * ' r^ ' r ' '< .V'`; ;-./.*! r r /,' . ',, . " / 6 .; "MR, 1MUSGRAVE: It figures you `don11 #,, ' - / J \'V I- ! * 1 S < "p t^ ^> * J. ' _ ,, ' , '^ * s* 7' ,- J ' " r\ . , . * 4, ^ *_ r 7 "' MR. CARR: ,As long as it*s not going to go to the 8: ' public and be exposed to'it,!;really don't care, Mr,:Musgrave. 9 Monsanto makes a lot of good chemicals. 10 . MR. KUSGRAVEt There's other reasons you don't care, 11 Mr* Carr., They'll c o m e o u t - y /'`/a _ " .. y>'- 12 c > MR.' CARRi /.Oh? '. / r; ` \'l .. ; V,. * . 13'-/ . ,/r -^J'MR,^MUSGRAVE:/' 'Yds. ' ' V. ' ' 14, '-MR-., CARR: ,You mean I m going to learn something v-, 15 else that you haven't disclosed-to ma? I thought;the rules 16 required you /to disclose; to me that information that you had. 11 ' * " {-f * -- ' ! '> ' ' <. -i-rmr 1 . ` 1 rj* 17 Could we approach the bench? . '' L r- , |v- 8 19 . 20 21 22. 23., '24 J " . . l? ;^dO*TrS'l>;').,iV(-w'.-ijgjit;.-S&s''.th.; docum\ent', Mr.-C,a.r-r'. ' !; - TKE .COURT: Okayf-:gentlemon. Let's go, to the quastioh , r - * * i,.'r-'~ hi A ! - -' v*. * - ' '-0 ':V . J.. gentlemen, ' ' ,,J--.- .. --- - \ v ` ' .. v // r- , , a ,V: .MR./MUSGRAVE: ^Very plain. wordsVL 1 :- " '' < - ir , ^ * 1 W* r ** -- ` j \ > .J -- *r j , ""r .' * 1` .^ 1 ,f - -' ^> j j * j O. J -* : MR/'CARR: Nothing new? Youre not going to come up J 1 / J"' `vtv Jn^ T * ^, > r 4n . , y 1 : J , jr, ' at 8:30 tomorrox^ morning with another document? :\ . ; MR, MUSGRAVE : Right in the document, Mr. Carr. BA YO N N E. N .j. 0 7 0 0 1 rORM IL -14 B 98 I THECCjOKTs' Okay. 'Gentlemen, let1 go t o t h e docu .2 ment. 'l7';.'' j r v / . .. ^ -/V.*, v ' 3 Q (Hr, -Carr) -Now, /Mr. Park, you do know what the word 4 only means, don't you,.,sir?: .j. '/ . / s'' 6 A ' I think sok ` Q _ It means used'for/nothing else except? . ! ./ -7' * A Yes ^ / r/ - . - - ~ , j* ;8- - 9. f . Q All right. No^, Mr. Park, the customer, your customs * m ' j* ,,L ~ .was informed, and A e t h e r you believe:that it's associated with 10 the information that y o u g a v e a n d whether you belleve that it!a n because the/product is high in dioxin content,. nonetheless ; , 12 for whatever, purpose the information that you gave them they 1 13 ' L 14 ended up,not "using it:in 2,4-, didn't they, sir? Yourentire 1981 production. v:;', /' ; : , .15 /.'6- * .. ^ 1- . tJ I don't know if it.was Monsanto's entire 1981 pro- j: * f i - -( ' ^ * ' \ t- * 'm ' -. * , ' ^ J is ' ' w\ * r , * **r < * * "* j . * *'m duction. .' * ,r, 'c v :; 1 - ^ ' 1* ; 17 Q .Oh; I'm sorry. You're, correct. The production, your 18 .entire production that you ./sent, t o .them? . .:/ 19 ,' - A - Yes.Ti Diamond fused 'Our, ^Monsanto '2*4-BCP in 1981 only ' /" 20 _ " 21 22 23; 24 Q: Now, 'given that :-information' in '81, do you reckon 'V` *:rJ' r.<rI..1.r \ J/:./ ,, -- if yosuu1'd given them, the information that you had in 1979# . " 1 ' "^".j4 - rt :^ S Y~ * 4 ,* , ' March, 1st , 197? ,*do d think that they might react, just barely might'have .reacted ,,in 1579 the way they did in '81 if ' .B AYON N E,' N .J. ' \ ," v ', . > : \ J* * " ' * J ' - ' -+ h ' ' r" J ` - * ^4 'i /- 1 ' .' *' - ** ^-r * -t * * r ." v ''> . - '> " ...1 '1 1. : - . `f e v \ . ,\'.:`. . J '- '> , ^ >p " ; j m ^ ,,,fc \ . * '< - \1 y t% ^ ` , -;j - r /j ^ p-j ; f . 1 r-- , *, l , " i..v , i ; you Had advised1the that it contained 16,000 parts per billion ? - \rA MR. , MUSGRAVE: : Obj act. Speculation and conjecture, - '3 * <. 4 ^- : A" J THE .COURT: Overruled/. : , ;. 1 have no idea/ Mr.^Crr, \ . /\j ' J5' ' Q . Well Mr. Park, you do know that the information that 6 you gave them in 1 Sl about the dioxin content according to the Exhibitl313,is it, that-- ** . , '1 ' ^8. . ' A - Yes.,- ' rv: : ", ' `' 9 K . r Q ; -- what was there is they only had. fivefcofifteen, L1`J0v L one lot only had five to fifteen .parts per billion in it of ii; tqtra-dioxins and that other lots-had well, below the five parte - Ai', per billion limit? .You see that-, don't you, sir? 13. ` )4\. , A ? Yea, I do, |1 , ^ 1 r, . '"* * : ' J,'r1 ' ^.*- '* V^ v tJ^"'wr", ,,, *1r ' '' ,, ^ ' . b.1 ,fS 4 " * -*1 : Q' . So they reacted-r .And you don't even call it 2,3,7,8 '/l5 V j< in this memo, do you, sir?/This 'letter to them "you tell them that w e 1ve got .one lot but of thirteen that had five to \\n- -' fifteen parts'per billion of TCDD in t, and coincidentally -/18. they quit using it, The lpts that were shipped to them or to 19 Ki- `whoever bought these lots" of DCP,- 2,A-DCP -in 1979 had, by your* ; :' 20 rh'p .21 calculations, 3,000; ,-m sorry, 360 parts per billion of , * "_ '*> _ i 1< - X"' tetra-dloxina in it, isn't that correct; sir? - 22' v . HR. MUSGRAVEV ' Object to that multiple question, * 23 ' ' ' > ' T; ' K " * N , L. ' ' ` r . * . . > >.. -'r^ * ^ . .. Your Honor/ /If it was a .question,. it .wae a multiple question. t- > . 1 / / -, - J u r A' ... - >24 : He started out making a speech and now this last portion is-a ' rs ' '- . ^ - r'' i'f // 7 *. l . . > i y-v - 1 t* l JL i> ' 1 * . 1 P ENCAD 'CO;, SAVONNE. N:J< r "V * l^ ^ '/ : % V - " ' ' "- V ' i*/ v L *v ''! t ;j/ j*- . >p -: ir * **j- ^ r -" ' -,V>*' i ' ' 5 *1 ^ 1L r-`- 1 1'-*i\*-fJ''I'K'.'-J.**---*j* \ -ii1t." 1/rhJ.V*'f-c,<*-.'/*1 f /* ^Vl'Si^.."p^,r// 1%1'^`it^*t^V*<-\1ll'rP.`,' .7/' -`i,-r*,,*Vt " - * -- ,* * ,* > * -,, ' . J j i"l t.ir.>1\j.%*'V',," *-v>.\r\.iv.>-i^''(,-'*t*^:<` i,-:^V.i1-J<-vK-.^r>.:'--**'>,: ., -``Vr'...' r , ; '\ \ r . queecion* 1 request' that the prior portion of itr which was a tr-*\> r^~*(-s. J- ^; 7J^ .%*-\r ..J\y^ ' . . * ,,, - 2 speech and which -was ,inaccurate 'arid `which was a misrepresenta 3 tion, be stricken. 4 THE COUBT: Overruled;onall points. You may answer 5;. the question* C":-.-r.L- * /- ' '6 ' Q (Mr. Carr) Isn#t;that correct, Mr, Park? J' ' A ;Ifm sorry, Your Honor,* *i just can't recall the last * 'J . , 8 - part of that question. '/ ^ ^ r "- 9- ^ ;;- - 10 Q The 2,4-dichlorqphendi' that.was sold and. shipped out in March >o f :1979 or thereabouts .contained 360 parts per billion ;/ n of tetrachlorodibehro-p-diqxin, .did it not; sir, according to A. - a - this Exhibit 1301A? / ' : C ' v ' / - *' A 1f Accordingvto that exhibit* v ^` ^ ,. - .1 4 . ^ Q And that is approximately 24 times higher tetra : r - ^i -*. - *J * , h * r J . - * i' * i .*iK * . r " ' T r *,>?-- ' . *i r , . 15 .concentration than mentioned in^this Sahihit' 1315 dated March -< * i - \ J *j x ac - 16 17th, 1981,. isn11 it, sir? . O *r /' ' V ` A \ 17, oPOsS ' ^ / 1 9 , A . % -guess;;- The 'AS.O : . ' iJt>' P C M C A D CO.. lBAVONNE.' N.J. i^ "18 .(*Jr P * '* ' - 1 ; 19 : D 0 ., <1 O2W ' , 20 ; . " . i* * \ 21- -Q ' :A fifte e n . Q /-The 36G-, sir/ .-/ ' , I'm sorry. The 360, right, would be twenty times , . /. '' Twenty-four times higher than-/' . 'V ; ^^ \ .-2? ' * ' A-'' i h O T i T - - J; ` 7 ' ` ` . ' , 23 D` 24 Q ^ ~7 the information you passed; to Diamond-Shamrock in 11 >: \ "* , "i* > ,, - \ -ijP - ' - March of f8i, isn't that right, sir? ' \ /: - -^ I//'' ../'V.;/-. - ^- 101 - '2 \* " '3 *V J r '-! 4 s"' i* *' ` ' ' V /->'-*S` ./ -7 ' . -7 A .lt' appQara.;so: rroitL.these, documents. Ui Q Toyo u r knowledge did you ver teli Diamond-Shamrock ` ;piL1* ,*i'; 1 ''-r\ . ; prior to March ;17th ,; '8 /that :th product ; the 2 ,4-dichloro- ; phenol you were skipping out contained levels of tetrachloro~ /! r; / 1"% * 0 r r' - , - ... dibizo-p-dioxin highefthan fifteen?parts pcrblllion? r. -6 - A' Not to my knowledge/Mr. Carr, but as I've stated ; . 7 / I would not have" knowledge ;p that*. / , 8 * Q , Ahdvdp'yoq^V>V^il>/again^-lVve been, the Monsanto 9 . is under orders, court orders to 'produce to me all letters P\J r;10 jthat they sent to customers,- and this is the only, this is the ' -" *^ ^ ^ 'v V * S* * 1 " J \ r ^J 1' ^ ^ 1 'J ^ r r m 4 -'-I r li. :earliest dated letter that t o bays dealing with this-- 12 ' A it understand: ; 7? ' ^ ^ rX 13 14 1 't -15 16' Q , -^subject. 'Would.it be fair then, assuming that *- _ 1 ^ * "lr ( * . / - * "v, 1 - ; VF. / Monsanto has obeyed the orders of Court, that no others wore -sent?" A ' .L *^ , '*'' * j ' r ~w , ^ j . Mrr. 'Carr,-- /// / . v --7 / . ,/ y- / '* 17 v / Q is that a fair, assumption, Mr.<Park? * ' .. 18/ A / I*,m not prepared .to say-that, Mr. Carr. : 19; ; Q Then you either are assuming'that Monsanto is with 20 ;21 7 holdings evidence .contrary, to the orders of this Court? That's i' \ '` . - ' %* 1 j ' :*p' ^ Jf * ;. , A T* >* , r1 -' ^ -r , * j, the only alternative, isn't It, :sir?;r ' .,, ; / - '22 -' ..A 7 It is not. at all, "Mr. Carr 23 .6 .> 24 Q .Whatrs the other alternative, Mr Park? 1 A rMonsanto is a large company: with-many different FORM IL '2 4 8 PEN GAD CO. BA YO N N E. N J , 07002 102 I departmentsi divisions> different: parts of the company, .all ^ -' 3 involved In different aspects of producing products, distribu:- ^k ^ - V , i r ** - * 1 - - # > i" , J rf j " *F ^, i - ' -. V" " *' . ' ij J 1 ing them, marketing.them. I have no way of, and I'm sure all. 4 o f ,our people who have >been 'informed :havo diligently tried to: *- T-r.,'j^ *i.*/* *. / ?- y*,,'' '-i '* l ' \ ' r ^ ^ 'J * !{ - , r 5 - produce documents, I 'm sitting here? I hve ho way of knowing 6'' .' 7 S,\ the extent to: which :this" has beervaccomplished. All I can tell ' *. * r ^ *-*r ' s - r \r -, r r u * ^ r7 k '1 r 1 /'*' ^ you is that I have no knowledge; of such contact .> ;* -V J V- ' J V* -VV.rv-tl ^ , v : ' Q Well, y o u .understand :th 'importance of the Court 4 , order .in this case. / It doesn't just, order you. or Mr> Nassif' or 10 Hr. Husgrave or Mr. Heiheman or-Mr; Ryder or Mr. Corafeld or ~u\ -MT. Thiess .to obey, the orders. of th Court, it's from the 12 president f your company, Mr.. Mahoney, all the way down to 13 ' the lowest employee,1. ."That*s. th way- the American system is. 14 . They're allbbilgated to search all of their files diligently .15 and send us this information. We have to assum, we have to 16 . depend upon'the integrity,Vhowever> of. you people to obey. 17V We cannot go, into' your .offices 'and dig'under your floorboards. ' 18 to find tihat:may be there;. You understand that. :Will you, .19' therefore; assume that your company'has followed the constraints . -, >'. - <-. 1 . . r 20' of th law and, has seafehd/every place they could possibly 21 search for such a letter: and that-none has been forthcoming? , 22 Will you assum that,.sir?. ` * _T 23 V ' . A l ean assume that, but: then why do you ask.me the .24 1 question,- Mr.' Can; as. to whether I* am; aware of any such-- PNGAD CO ,! BAYONNE. N.J;' 103 Q Because t h a t ' s e x a c t l y w h a t X fin asking you, whether or not you' re aware of.any , sir?:' ' V - , A `X am not.r` p ;..-C v . . ' , _ Q All you have to say is no ..you're not aware. You don* t have to add hat- there /may he- .spine of, which you; are aware, ,See, if you would Just- repond to the question we, : could aove; .right-:alongV;f^^ V *' ' 4 .* " ' ` 1 T i i' * f ; i > . : . .1 i ' * >. - A \ I am: notvaware;,-Mr*-1Carr, V Ji -r . * ^ t. *- - \ ^ ' " v 1r \ ` 1 * ' - '" T ' -t Q And. Mr. Park; and 'what you1'did sea from .this inform!- " "*'') -,:-l' ?->,L-J ^r''\ V, .. ' ^ ^ J Jh ^ L ^ 1 Jtl-'A *1 jr (* Jr t1' ^j r .1 tion is that once they iearn they "changed their actions* _didntt th3r?.-:.i/ \ \ %J ^ h r:r ^ \ ! 1" ' ` " - A Once they? tJ' . . Q Once Diamond-Shamrock learned they quit .using your * "* '' ' -* ,y *- - - '- " z product in the manufacture, of 2,4rD?r , X'Cv *. " ,' ' ' - - ' j. 5 '"1 > .V l. . A -T " 'V. r .V i' \ . MR. MUSGPAVE; Well, Your Honor, I think this has y r ' ', r" , * , 'f 'r ' lt *# - mJ \ * * ' * * r, V ( . lF ^ 1 ' 11 J ^ * .'A,/ 1 been asked about two or three times how and object to it as just repetition. :/.r, r '' :* -, MR.J CARRr Well; Your Honor, X never get quite the same answer-though. * T ' ' .1 r 1 J . - -THE.COURT: Objection is overruled. " . A Mo. Where is that in^here?. ': , 1 -- * . . m . C A m i You she? ' , \ ' ^ ^THE COURT! fe. Park,- ,,answer'the question. A ' X don#t teow; - I don11 -see-'it in the document. I* 104 r 1 . sorry.- You say they''changed. All I. see in here;';;Mr., Carr, ie 2 ^ that In 1981 Diamond was-/able to use Monsanto 2;4~DC only in 3 ' the production'of amine prpduct> Is that whatyou're referring , 4 j to? ' - -s; / y y \ y - -'v- : . y \ y y 5 " Q No. I'm refolding to the fact that your memo in 6 January of 1981" says that Diamond-Shamrock uses 2,4-dichloro- j7 phenol in making 2 ;4-D. ..They get/ your notice in March. 8 v A" Ys. v . -- / '>' ' . ' * . . 9i Q And then we -get a November 2nd memo saying that 10 they're able to.use it only in. mking amine.. The only informa* ' ^ - - '<> f A . ; '"t . i ' - . ' ' , . . ... ( '-,tf :{ \i ' ; "J- . 11 tion so: far; as we know,; the: only fact that we have to deduce ' 12 - 13 - why they quit.ueing.it,,in 2 ,4-D.if they were using it in " ',, , r r' ^ S , 1( * *** . a ' ' 'i r '4 - j . ? - * . 11 .. J Jjj ^ - J j, t ^ 1# ^ "H f . Hi " ^ 1 January, thr phly-new^inforoationVw 1Have is that you told them .14 that it contains.'five:jfco fifteen,;parts 'per billion of dioxin. ** j ;/ V * ' >.,J?:' i*1iy ):} ' yJV "<V-; - " ^ t - - ' 15. Unless you have some other information, Hr.' Park, that's the , 16 only evidence/that we have ;fc show why they were able to use* , r 17 it only in making amine in\1981, isn't'that correet/ sir? 18 19' ,2d.. 21 . HR, KUSGRAVE:' lobjeet to Counsel's statement. It's J" l . J- ^r " f* M 'i the Only^other evidence that, he has. .That's his opinin and .' * -VV rJ ' that's.a pooch.- ./;;; ^ /' :' , ' '` '*. \ / =' /r-;;*v : ;m. CARR: 'That,we have. .Not .that he. has, that w:, 22 .have. V - .;// v. ;^ ` _/* ,23 . y -1 * r - , MR MUSGRAV JuBt a moment/ Mr. Carr. Let me ..finish ,24 * .And I further object, Your Honor, again to the interrogation of BAYONNE, N .J. 07002 105 this witness about a `document.,which.her did not author.that he's now being ashed to.interpret.v He is, trying .to do his'best end >&*. Carr keeps insisting on- answers that the man`can\t give because,he doesn't know what the document says, .THE COURT; Objection is overruled on both point. ' */ " ' ... - ' J' _ ' r. -y-- y.\ - ' A- I don't knov7 why piamond-- ,, . ' - < ' *L. - Q Would you answer`th; question that I gave to you, sir? A Okay. If X remember the question correctly, and it ,was, did Diamond,stop using the Monsanto 2 ,4-dichlorophenol in /the production of. 2,4-D, my.; answer-- ,= 1 . ^ Q . That's hot what I: asked you.at all, Hr. Park. Would -- ; ' ''! 1- '/ . 1 ''-'/y, L you' road the question again?r j . / l: , ;(The ollowing^ question^inas' read back by* the court : ' "V-Ts- -, :y;; w *-> '7t; * * reporters 1"And then we' get November 2nd memo saying that :. th y ' L: y >. , y, - ^ v .i.y V ^ -Th .<*iy"tai>m* r -.- * tien-, so far-s we know,' .the only faet that we haye to deduce why they quit using- ft W"2y4-D,iifythey were using it in j January, the only new information'we-have is that ,you told them ** 1 r. v[ j - P_ ' >j . i. b f 'r ' ~ * * jt *. e \r i - -v , J ,, * that It contains five th fifteen parts per billion- of dioxin. , Unless you: have .some; other information,- -Hr. Park, that's the :'- ' '_r- -t . V v' -: /^ '-** j r y / ' y , / y ><. y r 1 only evidence that we have to; shownwhy; they ware able to us .: it only in'making amine In ,1981, .isn't that correct, sir?) . y A ' ;X think there.could be other reasons why they would^ Q ' .Mr.-. Park',:did you understand that question to' mean 1 that's the only evidence we have? There could be a million 2 other reasons4 and I didn't ask you that. What I asked you is, 3 is the only evidence we have is-as .I've stated it* isn't that 4 correct, sir? 5 MR. MQSGRAVE: Well,'Mr. Carr, you went a little 6 bit beyond that in stating a three paragraph question, and I 7 object, Your Honor. The question has just been.read back. S It was about three paragraphs long. It contained multiple 9 question, and this .witness is now trying to answer it and Mr* 10 Carr wants to change it on him, and I object and I request the 11 Court to permit the witness to answer the three paragraph 12 question if he can as stated. 13 THE COURT: Objection is overruled. 14 A As .1 recall the question and as you stated it, I 15 would say no. 16 Q You would say that's not the only evidence we have? 17 What other .'evidence do/we have then, .Mr, Park? 18 A Mr. Carr, I `don t know"what other evidence. 19 Q Myj/question is,-is what other evidence do we have? * 20 If you don't, know of any, then we don't have any, do we, sir? 21 We have to have it to" know of it, don't we, sir? My question i 22 what other evidence do we have, sir, other than this evidence 23 that we have right here? 24 MR, MUSGRAVE: Object to, that, Your Honor. How Mr. y V * .107 l Carr is asking this.'witness, what other* evidence do We have. x Is he talking about Mr. Carr, Is he'talking about in this 3 courtroom^ Is he talking about within the confine of Monsanto, i , r- * > r 4\ - '. v* 4 -or. is he talking about what this-witness, has personal knowledge "s' of* Your Honor? He can't ask this witness what other evidence 6- ..there is, that may have been'in the courtroom ,if the man has , no" knowledge;of what's going oh in- this courtroom or what other '8*. documents'there are. This is. obviously beyond this, witness *s 9 ; ' capability to know and it's an tmfair/question.v ^ ;J , )0 THE, COkr: Objection is .'overruled. ; ; V \ \ , '< i;V; 11 , ltlR#-r.MSGV:;, If he wants 'to ask him' what' h i s . 1 }* 12f , knowledge is, X have no problem with that. . ii > 1 14 ' ..THE COURT: The objection is overruled. . . ; ^ : * ^ " iV s' '\ ' -j ' - - '- ,, r j *L " J *.* Jr j "j * H\ lr L~ MR.\ MOSGRaVE;j ; And you/are going to .rquire him-r - 15' THE COURT : I 'm requiring him to answer, the question 16 that 's asked of `him. It *s clear. J.It has been; repeated ;r 'I 'm - . 17., expecting an-answer.over your objection.- , .1 . ; , 18 ' . / MR. ^flJSGRAVEi '-I:wanted1to be sure I understood* - *y 19 -'.Thank you.:> .1'. ; \ :r\ \*: ;-*\.: .y '. - . 1 ' 20 ; . Q `-(Mr,. Carr) .The -question" is ,, what other evidence do 21 ^ -wejhave here >in this courtroom^of -which you are aware- that 22 V 23 . . 24 the notification that we have here; -that it contains dioxin? B A Y O N N E , N.J'Si 0 7 0 0 2 108 1 A I. don't know, Mr. Carr. , 2 Q Than, Mr. Park, do you know A e t h e r or not Lehn and 3 Fink, Sterling Drug Company continued .in '79, In f80, in 481, 4r *82, *83, *84, continued to use Santophen in the manufacture 5 of Lysol? . 6 A I don't know. 7 Q bo you know whether or not they were ever notified 8. that Santophen contained dioxin? 9 A I do. not know. \ ' ; v . t 10 _ MR. MUSGRAVE: Been asked and answered, Your Honor. 1- * L , % 1 11, THE COURT: Overruled.: 12 Q . (Mr. Carr) Is it possible-- If you will assume 13 with me, Mr. Park, that they are continuing to use or have 14 used during this period of time Santophen in making their 15 Lysol, but they were never told, as Diamond-Shamrock was told, 16 that Santophen contained or that the chlorinated phenol they 17 were using from Monsanto contained, dioxin, assume that, do you 18. think it's possible that if they had been: told that they, too, 19; would have* quit using Monsanto's manufactured chlorinated 20 phenol in its Lysol? 21 A r I have no idea. 41 22 * Q ; You have no idea? *v <y-' . ' " ; 23 MR. MCSGRAVE: Object. It calls for &: conclusion, *r +- , 1,-t 24 speculations ;' , *- I THE COURT: Overruled.. ' !" ' ? '>' J f1 ` 5. 2 Q (Mr. 'Carr) Hava' you ever seen a memo, Mr. Park, or 3 was It ever discussed with you as an attorney for Monsanto 4 the clear statement, broad, cannot be misconstrued, if L@hn .;" ,1 5 and Fink learned that this product has got dioxin in it they 6 will immediately quit using it in manufacture of LysoX? Did 7 you ever see such a thing, sir? _ ,* f 'V ,8 A No. 9 Q / And as far as you know* Well, strike that. 10 11 (At this time Plaintiffs8 Exhibit Mo. 1316 was marke 12 for identification by the court reporter.) 13 14 Q '(Mr. Carr) Hand, you now what9s been marked IS Exhibit 1316 and ask you to look at it, Mr. Park. Do you 16 recognize that as another memo signed by Dr. J. D. Wilson 17 dated December 7th, 1961 dealing with the 2,4-DCP for Diamond*. 18 'Shamrock?' . V ^ 19 A Yea. 20 MR. CARRs Offer that into evidence and ask leave* 21 I haven't prepared a, it doesn't have all the attachments, 22 that I'm.passing to the Jury, because the Jury has previously 23 received it. The table that is attached to it, Your Honor, 24 THE COURTS ^kay. Any objections? 1 HR. MUSGHAVEj What are you passing them, Hr, Carr? ^ y' ,i * f 2 MR, CARR: I 'm passing thaia the correspondence 3 section. * 'i , . * >- 4 MR. MUSGHAVE:. Well, we.would object, Your Honor, 5 to the first page of the exhibit. Plaintiffs9 Exhibit 1316. 6 Again it deals with the 2,4-dichlorophenol. Secondly, it 7 contains hearsay. Wot from Monsanto personnel, but other 8 personnel, X.believe, outside the company. Object to the 9 next two pages on the same basis, dealing with 2 p4~diehlor~ 10 phenol. And let me just be sure to see If it *s got* That9s 11 the only reason X would object to that, Your Honor. 12 THE COURT: Admitted over objection. 13 14 (At this time Plaintiffs9 Exhibit Wo. 1316 was 15 admitted into evidence by the Court over objection.) 16 17 MR. CARR: Ask leave to pass it to the Jury. 18 THE COURT: Yes, you may. , 19 HR. MUSGHAVE: And just so it9s clear on the record, 20. Your Honor, X think the tables that are attached to the exhibit 21 have already been Identified. 22 THE COURT: Right. 23 MR. MUSGRAVEs Offered into evidence and my objection 24 that X made to those** Ill 1 THE COURTj I'll. Incorporate them, 2 MR, MUSGRAVE: All right; Thank you, 3 THE COURT: Sure^ : 4 Q ;(Mr. Carr) Mr, Park, we had yesterday when you were 5. asked questions, or day before yesterday, by Mr Mugrave as )i ~r'j v ^ ;1 rv -i* 6 .. to the Canadian requirement of the ten parts per billion for '7' dioxin. You recall he suggested to. you that the Canadian '8 ' requirement was ten 'parts par billion per isomer of dioxin and 9 that since there are 72, 75, 70 iscmers that that means you 10 , could have,up to 700 parts per billion total, ,and although not 11: . more than ten for each isomer, do you recall that line of 12` .testimony,: MrV Park? / 13 14 ` A '-v. Yes * ; ." nxj~ " Q ~ And this Exhibit 1316 talk about a ten part per 15 billion, par dioxin compound,doesn't it, sir? 1 16 " A . It does mention that, yes/ -'' 17; '' ' Q And the letter to Harwell that1 dated December the 18. 7th, 11981 talks about 100 part per billion limit on any 19 ` chlorodlbehab-dioxin, doesn't; it, sir? 20 ' A Xt mentions, it says,;"Proposed Canadian requirement, M 21 Q And also talking about whether or not you can 22 guarantee, a one part per billion limit, that no one can and ,... i ,,< 23 that we're .skating on very thin, ice attempting to guarantee' J 24. a tea part per billion limit. Do you see that, sir? 112 1ti A Let me "read. I haven't read that paragraph yet, Mr. 2 Carr. 3 Q I thought you had. 4 A Yes. Okay. I read that bottom paragraph. 7.W 5 Q And you see the memo, 1316, talks about ten parts 6 per billion dioxin compound. Do you see that, air? 7 A Yes, I do see that. 8 Q And do you have Monsanto Exhibit 885 here? And Mr. * 9 Husgrave handed you, w&en he was trying to suggest that they're ' i '< 10 talking about Isomers, he handed you Monsanto Exhibit 885, 11 did he not, sir? 12 MR, MUSGRAVE: This is the one that Mr. Carr objected 13 to, Your Honor. * 14 MR, CARR: Ho, it's not the one X objected to, Counsel. 15 MR* MUSGRAVE: It's not? Gh. That was 8 8 6 . I take 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 k 24 that back. I'm sorry. Q (Mr. Carr) And it discussed also the, in the third paragraph talking about maximum concentration of any chlorodibenzo-dioxin compound will be .0 1 part per million, which again le ten parts per billion, isn't It, sir? A Yes. Q Do you understand what the word compound means? A Mo, I don't, Mr. Carr. Q You don't understand what the word compound means. PENCAD CO. BA YO N N E. N ,J. 1 Hr. Park? 2 A Not in this context, Mr. Carr. 3 Q In any context, do you know what it means? 4 A Yes. 5 MR, KUSGRAVE: Object to. the relevancy, I object to 6 the meaning in any context, and I again. Your Honor, would 7 object to Mr. Park being asked to interpret the words and 8 thoughts of a document he did not author. The document speaks 9 for itself. 10 THE COURTS Overruled. 11 MR. MUSGRAVEs Oil all counts, I take it? All of my 12 objections?'. ir s 13 THE COURT: Yes. 1 14 s A ' Okay.' I would then hazard',a suggestion that this IS compound means each different dioxin isomer. 16 Q What do you believe that a compound question is which 17 your counsel has objected to on the grounds before that I 'va 18 asked a compound question?. I think you've been here and you 19 went through law school end I'm sure you took a course in 20 evidence and you heard about compound questions. Hoes the 21 word compound to you mean one, Just as you've suggested it, 22 sir? 23 A X believe you're using it as an adjective and here 24 it's a noun, Mr, Carr. 1 Q And whan it's used as a noun what does It mean to you 2 A X just answered your question a moment ago* 3 Q It means one isomer? 4 A One item, yes* 5 Q One item is a compound to you? 6 A That would be-- I'm not on analytical chemist* 7 Q You don't have to be an analytical chemist A com 8 pound Is something that's made up of more than one thing. 9 MR. HUSGRAVE ; Objection. He's arguing with the 10 witness. He's ashing questionsi he's getting answers. 11 MR. CARRj You know that* Mr. Park? 12 MR. MUSGRAVE: He's now arguing with the witness. 13 Object to the question. 14 THE COURTi Overruled. 15 Q (Mr. Carr) You know the definition of the word com 16 pound? ; '. 17 MR. MUSGRAVE; Same objection. 18 Q Don't you, Mr; Park? - 19 THE COURT X- Overruled. ' 20 A I said X did, Mr. Carr. 21 Q And you know that compound moans more than one thing. 22 It means it's made up of something composed of more than one 23 thing. It could be a number of things, but certainly more than 24 one. You understand that, don't you,' sir? 1 A This says any dioidn compound. You've asked me, 2 I've tried to answer you, Mr. Carr. 3 Q Sir? 4 A You've asked me the question, I've tried to answer 5 you. 6 Q But I'm suggesting to you that maybe you really 7 don't understand what I'm asking you. I'm giving you an oppor $ tunity to withdraw from your statement that compound means one 9 thing, sir, 10 MR. MUSGRAVEt Well, I object to Counsel's graciously II giving him an opportunity. If he's .going to reask the same 12 question, it's been asked and answered, Your Honor. The 13 question*s been asked, It's been answered. Obviously Mr. Carr 14 is not satisfied with it, so he's going to keep badgering the 15 witness to try to get him to say something else he'll like 16 maybe. 17 THE COURT: Objection is overruled. It is proper 18 cross examination, 19 Q (Mr. Garr) Mr, Hark, are you standing by your defin- . L i, r .20 ltlon of the word compound meaning one substance? s " 1, i 21 A In'this context, yes., 22 Q And have you ever used the word or heard the word ^ , /" J , i 23 compound used* to mean more than, less, I'm sorry, mean just 24 one substance or one ingredient? :;i .MR, KUSGRV, Object, this is now irrelevant and z - immaterial. He is asking him about his understanding of the ^1; .- V ' ,J r '1 V 3 . meaning of the word in,.this/document, and out of that; context,,. 4,, Your Honor, it's ^irrelevant and immaterial. 5 v THE COURTi; 'byerrulcd. ^ /.7.\ 6 ' A . I;think I have;, ifr. ;Carr. 7 ` 1' And .in what .context? in the drug store when you go" - 8*'> in and make up this compound* or what context have you used iti 9- Xl me how you1ve heard it used? " 10 A / Compound for use In repairing holes in;walls, for -;J 11 /. .example, -in th interior of a house. " J/ / v : 12 ; O: . <Q , And, .please, use the void the way you used it in the 13 materials'in the house. \ ': J. ,, . . * -s' ^ ' 1 F- Hr^ ' 1 vf \--L '* ' 1' ' , r* _ fc* - ` *" .'7 ** ^ 1 4 j f-'' H A A speckling compound. '... -. ; ; '; 15 ' \ Q ;Uh huh. And a speckling compound is made up of how 16 .many substances? , . / > . *\,CVv\ ^ ' .V;-' 'C / .17 " 18 ; - v;/ ; r_-f ' ,.\v; , / , ' " - yi A I have no idea, '-Mr.' Carr. ..'' ..,-`. '` ' Jf,*" i ,, \i /. Q Sir>'.:-i ; '' . - *-' * ... !<' 19. _* / ` * A"-- Imbavo no/ida,-Mr; Carri i- 2 LJ 21 ' ' Q You know it *8 made up f 'lime. ,You know it *s made, up of perhaps . s a n d . Y o u Tknow it'a made up of water. You know 22..v 23 it *b.made up ;bf ;-a lot ot differentthings, don! t you, &ir, a - . `V . ,'(V i',? r'S:-*l h.` 'iiV * T- 1; 1 : ' J '-v-- J- ' ; speckling compound?" I^n!:t you, siri; Excuse m e ; W o u l d you .24 ' answer thatjlquestion?. ^ l: \\ . I- J'" _ ^ * "V 4 ' / O i -V' " ^ I- ,** 1 , - ( ''' f\ V .y> 1 A X don't know W a t "it'a made up of* Mr, Carr. 2 Q You know it's made up of more than one substance* 3 don't you, sir? 4 A /It may be. ` 5 Q . Yes. So that definition of compound means it's more 6 than one substance. Could you give me another example of 7 where It's used to suggest just one ingredient? 8 MR. HUSGRAVE s May my objection be a continuing 9 objection to this witness now being asked to give different 10 examples of compound in context totally unrelated to a letter 11 that he did not author, that he has been asked to speculate 12 about.. 13 THE COURT: Objection is overruled. I will note it 14 as a continuing objection. 15 MR.MUSGRAVE: Thank you, Your Honor. . 16 A X can't recall any other uses, Mr. Carr. 17 Q - All right. Then directing your attention back to 18 this exhibit, ten part per billion dioxin compound or chloro~ 19 dibenso compound, is it your belief that they're talking about 20 an isomer of'dioxin? 21 A If you're requiring me to construe this,-- 22 Q I am. 23 A. -- I would construe it to be per isomer. 24 Q You would construe that to mean per Isomer, is that t right, sir? VV ^ ! i. j *- * *'- '' -I ^ "i -f . ' x^ J . , ' . ^ 2 A If X1was"required ter construe that.. I would rather 3 ' contact the; author; . ' /'> -'v j . if'-- O * V J t ' >- J . : .y s * , - / , 4 Q Okay, Now, let1e just explore that for a moment. - - x - 1j'-\; 'Vi r:'-`l u /* 1 ; ,<l* 5 If It meant, pr isornr>'there are how many isomers, sir? Ton; 6 7- "`i ' L 8 9 knew when. Hr. Kusgrave asked yu the, question. ' " ' ^ 1 ' _ * f - >y ' -" h ^. ' * 1 ` I Jr1,*-' J* s r- L ', . " v " 4 - .i ' ; : m . MUSGRAVE:- N. I.'had to tell him, 'Hr. Carr. . Asked him to assume, it. -W > ^ * ' J>. ' ` \> . *- r r 1 /- <-J,. ' ` *J Q J Nell, he told you how. many isomers., How many isomeri , 1 0 did he,, tell you?r 'X. x * y'Xy*- -- ' ,iy X ` V V 11 A. < X don't recall. I think there are oyer .a hundred*. BAONNE. N,J. 07001 F O R K IL 24 B '1 2 , 13 14 / . 15 . / 16 '18 19 20 21 - 22 '23 24 , Q T t I think he suggested, to you 70. A' X,All`right. '"70;,r. X y '-"*'yv. V ' . 'X.; X- ,x . v,: : Q Now, do you know how many isomers that Monsanto has .the standards Mand are able to differentiate one from another? 'vy y X' ;x :y; . -yJ X' ! v X X 'y X A if I undertandyour question, X do not.~ X X } *' ' 1 r>' v." -! ' ,V`r` r.4 ^J Q .. All right*, Now*, if they're going to guarantee a ten part per: billion pdr isomer, then in order to guarantee : that they1ye 'got- t know;, that eadU of ;those 70 ioaers is present "in;riot greater.than ten parts per billion* don't; they, ; sir?' *.'v.V rx :y>;,, y i.y .-y . ' y. \v '^. ' J A.-. That would be correct, I believe. ,Q " And the only way you could guarantee that would be ,r p *' y T, r -r -m J- r\ JLr ^t l " , , " %. p i .r ' ; " r -p r *. to analyse the. product and determine whether or not there are I 70 different isomers, wouldn't that be correct* air? 2 A Well, you can guarantee, I assume, Mr. Carr, without 3 analyzing for each one. 4 Q Well, let's/Just supposehere. We've got only eight ,* ' > , J* ^ f * i1 5 lines up herew These are compounds,'.These are all consist of 6 more than one" Isomer, and all of these have more than one dioxin l ` - 1' /' 1 r *1 *. 7 isomer in It. There are 22 separate'isomers alone for the CJ>4 8 you know that, too. Well, X suppose: you know that. How, how 9 can one guarantee that there is not more than ten parts par 10 billion of each of those isomers without breaking it down and 11 analyzing for each isomer? 12 A .' Mr. Carr, I don't know, X didn't author these tnemorai 13 X was not sent copies of them. *v 14 Q But you do know by talking to your analytical chemist 15 that all they ever hope to do, all they've ever done in the 16 CL-4, Monsanto just a year or so ago got all 22 isomers, just a 17 year or so ago got all 22 isomers, all of the CL-4, and abaci** 18 utely no testimony that they .got any more isomers than that 19 or these others. 20 ME, MUSGRAVEi Just a year; or so you're'representing 21 that, Mr. Carr? A year or so ago from today? 22 MR. CARRi 'My memory is it' s something like that, Mr, 23 truegrave. X could be off a couple of years. 24 MR, KUSGRAVEs ' Oh, your memory might have soma 120- i: fallacy, too* then? f ^C ., 'i . .MR. CARR:\ r( / ,' Of c3o; u- rse* .;* it ' J- does.. J. , , 1- 3 :M. .MSGRAVEs''Oh/ I'in-glad to'hear. . 4 THE COURT; Okay. Gentlemen, /we don' t need to go : s h.into that. I think it's -timo for a break. We'll take a short 6 recess at this time andwe* 11 resume testimony. 7 ./ 1 -`v r ".`r'v v Court*s.;i recess. 'if/:? !/' ' '* /- '8. . > , .. , _ /i f t. ' f rV i' - 'J'*-' w-1 v `. . , (Whereupon a brief recess was had.) ; , L f' , .9 r *.f / . 10 : - //:' /. : ^/ /)\ .j rv , " "J -jS /i'--.V ,*v * ifir,* ft r- Jf 1 ' jv . '-/r/N '''i^r - , 'j'.pv ,S ' '-.y-v/- . ` .. 11 "C * *' , + J Pp " > fT* - , T- 1 L " *> > F "1 12 . THE COURT; -toy 'Carr. / ^ . ' ;;/'. ' 13 Q - (Hr. Carr) Hr. Park, referring if you will to 14 Monsanto Exhibit S85 \ /: C' / >,,J' . \ /IS : A /Yes./ - ; > / -. ` 16 Q r. Wilson makes statement there, does he hot* that 17: he will guarantee thafthe' maximum concentration of any chioro- 18 dibenso-dioidn compound will be ten7parts per billion* that is* ' 19 r *1 *" ` -J * * .0 1 parts .per. million. 20 v r- *'* v / ' ;He says we can provisionally guarantee that. 21 , Q Well, thAt- means for the time being you are guarantee 22\ .ing it, doeis.it not? 23 A ,Hr. Carr I don9t know exactly what it means. He , 24 says we can provisionally guarantee that the maximum concentration !A, ' ", V 121 1 '\:2 ; Q Surely I don't h a v e i mt + to g*;o;' thri ough ,the^ bue^i, noss of having you define what provisionally means or ;what guarantee 3 means, Mr* Park* Aren*twe talking in the same language? a - V* .4 Aren't we using the English language here? , ' - 5.. u ' .A ; Bufcl don't know, what Mr. 1 Wilson, Dr., Wilson meant 6 ,when he wrote this, Mr; Carr. ; / 7 . . Q Well, Just believe that you're Hr* "Harwell and you're /8 getting this from Tuscaloosa, you're getting it from Monsanto - ' 9. ' and you are in Tuscaloosa, Alabama, Just make believe that ip you are theVrecipient/of< the letter, and not the author of./it. 11 . What do you'understand this letter means as far as the guaranty . 12 13. is concemed?z\ '-} r-\ ^ ;r" \\ : -v, . . , '-s,'' 't , - j 1 v t*. . ~ s - ) ' z ~s,t \ ' , > MR* MUSGEAVE: Objection again, Your Honor, on the 14 came basis ofythie witness :beirig:asked to interpret documents - 15; thathe did not author continue to run through examination as t - 116 this doctor* J! 1.7 , - ,'V 1 i- THE COURT: It will be noted as a continuing objection "18 'It is overruled* -Vl . ^ V\'' , " -'/V- ; 19 A.. I would take it there is not a fuli guarantee, that ",, ' '* ' ^ r ! .20 ;It is a provisional' guarantee. ' 21 Q; Provisionally moans for the time being,, oruntil 22 z'f l . ji _ . . r '/,',J__ ' " 1.-J' '*l / " vv< -,zj further notice, or tmiil you get it more stronger, or until we 23 .change our mind, ^tiirwe notify you,some other way; Aren't , 24 - all those things wha t ;It means, Mr. Park? - v B f Z H 'M U O J ' Z 0 0 1 Q #r N 43 N N C U * e if r t . ('<--t .. ; ) \, 122 ' . * ' ' *'. f. 1i r' 1, .*,r `i 1. >, ", i* ' 1 fi l - ' 1 * '**. " V ! 1 ' V, . i;V ? V'-^w-AV, * ` ; -r ' "J ,. ' *r ' r* .* *J *71 ?- htv * f I */ #i- * E / * t J - T i* - J -1 > / .j - > ' ' A Or^condltibnal /or Whatever; I don*t know. . - ^*.-v A"* Q .Wall, provisional doeon11 mean conditional, because condition means'* youhave to put the conditions ln.= Provision- ,, ' ' >*.* '.- ^ / J- ,;\ ~ '' 1 *`r'`r-'/ .*-v ally means for the/ time being, for now. / / ; v . . A You may know more about what Dr, Wilson meant, Hr. Carr* \ ,_-r- ' ; 7 ;''/ ,' '7, Q , Well, whatever'the "meaning of it is, it is'a guarani tee of some sorts, isn't it, sir?/ J : 1 - V; i- -' _ ^ t ,, T, -- * j, , J, l'* 'i> ,fc> - ' ' *- > J'-. 'r ^ * 'J A It's a provisional guarantee. - v , ' Q 1Well, the word provisional doesn*t, mean anything to. you. ..I t ris a guarantee,.of- 'some sorts-. ,isn11 'It., idrPark? . A It appears to be somewhat 'of a- guarantee . Q . Somewhat o a guarantee; Well, I 'll even accept i ^that. r'*- !*' | '' ^k - A^ . ; ; `V. And.now, Mr. Park, if, you take your or Mr. Husgrave *s . * :-St thought/that when you* re .talking about the guarantee !you1re . , .' - , : *.^r A . -.not talking about, just .eight.. If you'just toolc-ight under * .A the guarantee that would.'he ,80 parts,' atotal of- 80parts per /./.- . i j /v . *v'6.r > , ^/-z 'Vc' > - billion, wouldn't it* sir?- Cannot contain more*'than 80 parts ;/ ^ ' .'- / ^-^ ' / / / '.-`i ' ' /*. per billion if you taka it by, th meaning to be the dioxins the way you ordinarily analyze them/ but. sometimes you analyze '4j / ;. r* t ,-. r ' r^ 4" 1 ^ r * *| J ^ *M 1 ' ' ` i* < . -< , * *^* j - 4 r * *M |] for the 2 ,3; 7 ,8 isomer, sometimes for ;other isomers, and so on'* Mr. Carr. /;, ' /j A Yes. That'S right.1. ' /-/ ' ^ . j/- 1 Q And what you do-- Have you ever seen a report, in 2 all the years you've served on these committees, have you ever 3 seen a report where they've put down 70 separate columns in 4 identifying 70 separate isomers, Mr. Park? 5 A I frankly cannot recall, Mr. Carr. 6 Q Have you ever seen anything other than they put it 7 down in columns of eight like this, and sometimes they have a, 8 they have a letter there and asterisk and you look down at the 9 bottom, it saya there's two isomers that coelute the same way. 10 Have you ever seen any identification other than the way it's 11 on Exhibit 1135A? 12 A Mr. Carr, I may have. 13 Q Can you recall anything right now in your mind, Mr. 14 Park? 15 A I Just can't recall having seen a great many of these 16 at all. 17 Q But the ones you did see you saw the dioxin concen 18 tration described in these various columns of eight, didn't you, 19 sir? 20 A No. First, I don't see very many of these. Secondly, 21 I guess I would say that generally it is Just a few specific 22 results applicable to a given isomer or so. 23 Q Veil,-- 24 A I have seen things with the eight headings. 1 have 124 seen documents without the. eight.headings. Q Have you ever see documents with more then eight? , A t just cannot recall, Hr. .Carr, L; ' Q Well, in any event, if it's eight,, it's SO parte per billion* If it* 70, it*s 700 parts per billion. L -4 * ' , f r\ 'be the way,you see it? :V ' / ` Would that !*./ y " .A J Q That: would be, -yes; multiplying timesten. >i ` ' " .T T , J- But you vc never seen any document where, they've attempted1to describe 70. isomers,! of Mo r i n ? / ,, A I just said I could not recall that, Mtv Carr. ^ ' ' ': . l">.f ' .:,J ';':j'' Q How, whatever the guarantee is, yoU know that Monsanto couldn't live up to it,: whether it's 700 or whether it's $0? You know that, too, don*t you, sir? -/ vJr /" - J , ! r.Jt jL ' ,rl" \-y:,r,r' . A I. don't know that, Mr. Carr. ^ ;^ ^ P r iJ Q * M r , 1 Park, we went-through this, document here, X301A. ,, 1 J (/ . .j y _ , L I * `l* f 4' v> ' ' L1 U ^ " '. " * We, looked at the 1982,productIon. : It's right on this document -i rj ,, . **. " * , 1' * that you and I went through, that. Monsanto cannot-- Here, wefve got one, two, three; four 2 4~dichlorophenol that1s produced in 1982 on this chart. ,All of them are higher than .- - - - r r * ! ",i * \ . V- * i'r- / "'i- `'' ,: l;yi .V 1 - - r ' ^ \./ , . 80 parts per billionvand iall^bunone^is higher than 700 parts ', ^ 'i r rr' ' - i `.-J- ' . - . * per billion ,f*:isnft .that ,correct j sir?: -' :V. i; V j / > A ' .On-your-chart-there?- ,c > r` . .; r Q Yeah;, it'*s*on the chart here. '- , ' r ;r , J *, . 1 1 i r < . - - i , MR. CARR: Could you get Exhibit 131 for the witness i /V ,L. *. v..:i"-\V4i,^`rL, i 1- ,125 - ' ' 1 " 6 fa won11 have to strain his eyes? . r;\ / ;, ' 2 A Okay. Nov;, you were talking about -the total dioxin? "3 . Q Yes, that*s what T'm talking about* .f / ' > v v ./ 1 4 ' v A" rOkay.\ . ' . ' * .,f' 1 Q , Referring it to either the guarantee of 80 parts per 6 7 '8 r - billion or 700 parts per billion.: i1-- ; A Mr* Carr, I ftrnot In manufacturing.or marketing. I have no idea what they had in mind. There is no way I can say 9 JO 11 r* - 12 \ 13 that this guarantee would not have been fulfilled; - - *' - \ . y : Q ,, ;A11 I 'm asking you, sir, le the production that was shown on this;chart in 19S2 shows three of those four productions to be in excess o f .the maximum limit and all of them to be in excess of the par-dioxin limit,. isn* t that correct, sir? ...1 4 ; 15 16 There's none her that's aa low ae ten parts perbillion, is there, sir? y . ;7-v,- ' - ,l . , 'y.y y , _'-y V y",vy '- , A Mr. Carr, you'll have to point out the specific items --.17* you're referring to for tie. : 1 - * : 4r ' 1 8 .: CARR: Could 1 have Exhibit 1184, please? 19 ,Q,.. Now, '.1184 breaks'down these dioxins, sir, in columns . 20 of eight regain/; doesn't it, si^VV ^; 21 A ' Yes. V .V,';V .. 2 1 Q `.And ls there'any column there, these eight columns-- 23* 24 Ther are two columns. /The mono o n e a n d mono two. The di h r - ;'V f > ` 'V " -'V- u S L ', have leas than\ten pairtp ;^er.;billion for those two columns, * V. * 1 . \\ 7 . -, \*Af t jl- - *, y.? r- V -ji. rfv :-;i *. '. PENCAD CO*. BAYONNE. N ,J, 07002' V ` ir n. J,.! v ; . , . ,, : \ -r 'l " J ' , ` ' ' ,y ` ,V V_r. ,' ,">."VV-v 'y " ! / - ' ; , ' . J I1- .. , - , 1 l .-don't they, a ir? . r " -/- *r i i ii , J *i * 1 e 2- -; 3 '4 5' -L> 6, .7 ; A* ' I t says n o h -d eteeted . f - ^*J "1-t ,,/ ^ r?-'1hj1t j -#>* iJ^ 'jt- v' * ; v.; ' 7^i1 y i , Q And a l l th e other,' columns' have g o t q u a n titie s in ' t -r t ,} i ' - / - -v j -j',,.,---,i v - >- ' * excess o f - t e n 'p a r ts per .b illio n ,- d o n 't th e y ,' s ir ? . / - ` A" .. .-Yes',7;tsn`"or .inbrei,^-ik-7.ti ; ;.7 v ^ 5'-7 %. - MR. CARR: Your Honor t I have no f a t h e r q u e stio n s - / ' `:j`1P; , f f f } y -f iA', V A r , y f . r : 1 -1 '}*, ': : - '' r"-'/., i. o f-th is Witness. 1 v ,,'.i'1* ] ,. v~ 8 !/ _ ; *;-; , tHEy COURT:; Okay. `Kr-/'Husgrave. - ` `",s.' f. , 9 ' . / - ' ,/ I4R. MUSGKAVE; y .Tliank- you. Your Honor. < v "<n* 1 : ^ ^REDIRECT' EJi/toHATIOH XCLARIFICATION) , 11 BY m i HUSGMVE,: ; ' ^ , ' *-r l ` A 12 *' Q ' 'Mr.- -Park, f i r s t o f a l l , w ith re g a rd to th e e x h ib it 13 ' Mr. Carr h a s 'j u s t been showing you, t h i s P l a i n t i f f s 1 1301A, ' 14' v and r e f e r r in g to, 2 , 4~dichlorophenol.., Of ;co u rsa, 1you understand VonJ*_ wZCot 15 t h i s i s Mr. Carr* ^ e x h ib it, d o h 't .you? . 1 16 - ,' y-VV'"'-' f 1n;` `_ . -c'. \ \ ,,.L ; \ A ;'.'',Yes. 'v - 1 \ . * ... \ r ';- -17.7 ' ; , MR. rCARR: ' Your Honor, I O bjectvto t h a t . This i s 07002 r4 Z 1' 18 - zZO .s" .^-4*- <a , l 19 . oU u*o4aX. -` # *' LI < .i ' 20. 21 ^ - *72 i *v L. F 23 24 the C ourt*/exhibit. I t 's been admitted in to evidence. I t 's been properly foundatiO ned.T he w itness has agreed to every- v th in g th a t rs- on t h i s ' e x h ib it and I bbj e c t to /th a t statem ent and ask th a t th e ju ry , be in s tru c te d to; d isre g a rd i t . ; ' , ...MR, , 17 tt '' r MrU. SG,wP^A.V"E*t '^D id n ' t you p.Are p are it? /,- 1 `*'i- r" ',' /."1r / TliE ,.COURTi O bjection' i s overruled.- I mean, th e o b je c tio n Is su sta in e d . I th in k that: i t was p ro p e rly ru le d ' r` , ` 0 '/' , / ' , ' ; V ' / / ' , V' - ' 11 i J `''v, J y ' - - ' il * . , - * . . ' > ;'y.. . - . 127 I -' 2 3 into evidence and it's an exhibit that has been admitted into , 1 *p * ^ ^ i r ' 4 'r " V , , * *, * *' f- , evidence; The jury' iS'ordered-to- disregard that remark. . 1 \ r. . .. - r ' J i i * .'J jjT^ \ i. `, '. r " *` , Q (Mr/ Kusgrave) : Do you tindorstend the 2,4-dichloro- 4 5, ' 6' phenol samples4that are ;shov?n bn this; exhibit, Nr/ Park? First v of. all, .there are one, two, three, four of them, are there.not? j t *i - "- S i ~i" \ A ; Tea;;;''; / ' f , s , < * rv` J`. 1 . V v f v r - [<t;: - '>"" ^ 1 . '7 \ Q And they're. all;\?ithin, would it appear to be the -/ , 8 ./ 9 ,10 same week in September/, ^ u l d . f t Lhot ? . ,v ft A -' ^Tee. ' ** * ' , , 4* ,/J '`/ 1 J ' - u , / ;' ,, 4 r i* ,, o._ " - \V Q Now,- are the other 2;4-dichlorophenol tests that ; ,11 12 ' 13 14 Monsanto, may have run in'1982 on its production anywhere reflec :ed on Plaintiffs1,Exhibit, 1301A? . / > ' > A -I don't see them; /, -" " ^ Q And. Mr. .Carr -shewedyou 'the exhibitwhere these test . 1 5 results came from. Plaintiffs' .Exhibit 1134, did he not? '/ 6: r ' A .*,tea/ 'l :! ^ -*: V ` ^ 'j.M. -Q V'1'Mow, do you.know;.whether or not. when, these results-*- ' 18 Well, *first of all, do you know, Mr. Park, vrhether these . -20 21 L .22 V* - 23 24' results for this one/we*k`'^in -September of 1982 were typical of the other analytical results:that Monsanto had for its 2,4-di- chlorophcnol in 1982? ';r' . J / , /A ^'r I have no idea^ / >. ^ Q DO, you know whetherwhen these resultswereobtained the plant was called b y .Fred Hilemah or not, who was part.of ' P E N C A D CO. 128 the analytical team doing. these-results to inform'the plant ./ 2 about .them?:;', *' * ,, " - -f->* ' * * ' * ' r >'` \ \ 3 A-*. I .have no idea. . 4 Q Do you know'what the plant; told Mr. Hilemah or. Dr. .' jC ' ft* ,, l '' ' ,5 Hileman,. who,has"alreadyVbeeh here to^testify about that, do , 6 you know .what th plant'people told Dr. Hieman when he; called; r /-> rv-.i--V' A>r>v `-, --V L * ,% .r.i-"j; "* ,V. * ji*\V -r,ri'j;*J "'iV*' r ' : and reported '-these rsulter to ;hitn on' the telephone ? ' -8. `' 9 L ,A Ho,; X; d o n 't.' S i" : . h \ ' ^r r. '; ` ' J- _i.'J- V- ''V'-ii-Vf1 *Jt-*_'V';V.tfv'.v,;`f _. - Q 'Do you know, ;in fact, whether this was a shipment ' ' iq` that went out?, V . ; - -V " /* ,ir ,-.j- `A^ ; Nov I don't.,,;,-/ ,;l` \-j v : v," ;! 12 Q Now, with further- regard;to- Defendant's Exhibit 885, 3 14 .1 5 16 17t 18 19 20 " 21 22 23 24 1b -.that the one that-you have up there? L. ' ' A- ` Yes.'*- \ . .* ^ fc ;h' , , ' L.: '` ` .. Q The one.where:.Dr.. V,Tileon talks about th provisional f . * ' -1' * * v . . ` > " ; ,, ' v ' \ : - v -r , _ V - .-j V . . f r. -. -r guarantee that the maximum concentration of chlorodibenzo- .' />H-' V- t dioxin compound, ^ 1 1 h V.01 parts per :million, right? A ...Ys-'. * V ,r ^ -Q r And Mr. Carrasked you that .if, the interpretation" of that wer;.that it's .01 parts per,million for each group of ' 1, * . F> i * s't * ' ' * "* 1 isomers, then that would mean SO parts jper; billion total, right? " A v `'Yesv ' '- v* f,, '- -Vi; . f '" . ' ' r' `: Q ; All r i g h t I f , , in fact, that, is the correct inter- r, tj ^ j- * pretation still, Kr. Park, .isn't it .a'fact that 80-- Let me 4 "l J" L . *- ' - r A" . ^ ;/ tK J - , ' - J' P ENCAD CO.. BAYONNE. N .J, first of all hand you Plaintiffs V Exhibit 1300. -`Do you have / that? All of this came u p you may recall, as a result of .Mr. Carr first of all giving you Plaintiffs* Exhibit 1300. Do.you , . - "i J- " ` v ;. j ,-v.r* recall that,Y*`si.r?; r ,- w ` . -:rj- ` *' ' * rl K , > , A . /Yas* , .. . s;.ry \ ^ V11 .? . _ ' ./ ,r Q ; ,.And suggested -thatthat document authored by Dr. t ^ i' r t- r" 't ^* y ' - * ^, tr - -^ m* * L' 'v v jir 4- i L. ' * p- 4 'J * -* f i WiXsonin September of 1$1 stated that the -Canadian government had a requirement of one -part-per billion limit bn all chloro- ditenzo-dioxins? ; v y f- V - - i f . . ; ' ,, 1 * ` : s ', - '. - f . . / 'i ^ , ' 1- ^ vV c*. v . `^ / . u r, A . .Yes; r ./V- ,iS, . ^r. . ^ ' r . - . \v \ ' -j . ' T / .`o', $ V-- & '*" , ' - v - .Q ' Yo*u--ire1ca;l1l**'*t)'h^at7?.'iX-, }.k*:,,`\ .t7r77'\ ' / "A- " Yes. ' y r-. 1- : ' \7-V'.^ ,-o.. - Q Ajod^theh I .brought o your'attention this'defense rT Eithlbit 885, which it ,talked about ^.01 part per million. This is the one we've just'been looking at with the proviaibaal guarantee language in-it^:, \ ^ . A ';Yes. '/*>>., .i^V; , ! V Q , .01 part per million, vjhich would be ten parts per billion^ for any chloroldibenso compound. Do ybU recall that? - j. '! ' / *i-.-'t *'r ' , ''! "_' A *' , ' . , 1 ` - JV - " r* 7--,, " `-'i^ V - J ' , - . i' t . J ' " : - '- L - jv ` " V ' 7 / f Q , .Well, whether the interpretatibu would be that this - means 30-parts per billion or 700 parts per million it s certainly more; is' it not, isir,/than the one part per million' that Mr. Carr suggested.by. showing you the September 17 1 document? z .MR. CAREi Counsel, you said one part per million, - 3 but you meant one part per billion. 4 Q (Mr. Mu g grave) One part per billion, yea. Then the "5 one part per billion that Mr I Carr suggested was the Canadian 6 limitation by the September 17 document. -7, MR. CARR: Ho, Counsel, I didn't suggest that. Dr. 8 Wilsonwrote that letter, I didn't. 9 MR. MUSGRAVE: X think that the jury will recall the 10 testimony, Mr. Carr.. -..v - r 11 MR. CARE: Bp you believe that X wrote, that letter? 12 My testimony;' .-That!e 0r; Wilson'sWpsb, not mine. 13 ,.J MR, MIJSGRAVE? Well, you had somebody else interpret 14 .-V '(.vvi 1- y. \,1 it using your testimony, Mr.- Carr, as: I recall. 15 MR. CARR: Using ay testimony? , * !'- / r .'l1 16 MR. ;MUSGRAVE: Yes, sir. ' 17 MR. CARR:. X hadn't understood I 'd been sworn yet. 18 Counsel. , .1 . 19 MR. MUSGRAVE: I didn't either. That's why I 'm 20 , curious ,as to why you keep testifying.:-ir.' ' .' ' ,, r y s r. 21 Q (Mr. Musgrave) Mr. Park, with Regard to Plaintiffs' 22 Exhibit 1314, sir, do you have that? ^ 1 *'" , i 23 A Ye-s. : ; - ) ^ Q And Plaintiffs'.Exhibit 1315? 1 -I C1 . *i y i i 1 A Va. 2 Q Now, 1314 id the memo of & Hr. Stevens about apparent!) 3 a conversation with a Mr. Hicks of Diamond-Shamrock? 4 . A Yes. 5 Q About 2,4-dichloropheno1 and 2,4-D that Diamond- 6 Shamrock makes, is that right? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Now, .do you have Plaintiffs9 Exhibit 1273? Have you 9 been able to find that, sir? 10 A No, X don't. X don't have it. 11 CLERK: X don't have it. 12 MR. MUSGRAVE; Do you have it, Mr. Carr? X believe 13 you just marked it. Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1314 and 1313. 14 MR. CARR: No, the witness has that. 15 A I'm'sorry, X have it. '/ l `1 j r 1T > 'j. ' * * "- , . ** l 16 . Ml. MUSGRAVE; I'm sorry. What X did say was 17 Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1273, the EPA dioxin book. Mr. Carr, do 18 you have it? 19 MR. CARR: Oh; yes. ' 20 Q (Mr. Musgrave) Let me hand that to you. X would 21 like you to look at page 93 of that and tell me if you can find 22 thereon a statement or a definition or/ the spalling of what 23 2,4*D is, what the chemical name of It is. 24 A 2,4-D? / .i \\ 1 q Yes. 2 A Yes, X do. 3 Q That's the herbicide that Diamond-Shamrock makes, 4 is that correct? 5 A Yes. 6 Q And, sir, what does it aay it is? 7 A It says it's the compound 2,4-dlchlorophenoxyacetic8 acid. 9 Q Okay. That has not been marked as en exhibit, so L 10 I'm going to-- I'm not going to dare do anything but copy that 11 out of the book here. It's at page 93, isn't it? 12 A Yes. 13 Q And 2,4-D, the herbicide is 2,4-- .x 14 A Dichlorophenoxy-- We're out of paper here, so-- 15 Q Phenoxy? 16 A Acetic. 17 Q Acetic? 18 A Yes, sir.'1' ;; -jy ';ri a.. 1 '. ; , .19 Q Acid. That is the chemical name, right? 20 A That's right.'. 21 Q Of 2,4-D, the herbicide. No^f, this con of Weed-B-Gon 22 and I believe Mr. Carr has examined you about this, told you 23 that 2,4-D goes into Weed-B-Gone? 24 A Yes. 1 Q !3ow, wh&t does this con say? VJhat*s It say up there 2 about the ingredients? Can you read that, sir? 3 A Yes, \ 4 Q What's it\say? S A Active ingredients ere dimethylamine salt of 2,4- 6 dlchlorophenoxyacoticacid. ' _ 1- . 1 7 Q Okay, S' Lb -1 8 A And then also dimethylamine salt of 2-2 methyl-4 9 chlorophenoxyproprionicacid 10 Q Wall, the only place dichlorophenoxyacld is mentioned 11 is in connection tilth it being the dimethylamine salt of 2,4- 12 dichlorophenoxyacld, is that right? 13 A That's right, ' ' ' ^ t, * r r` > 14 Q . All right. Let me writ that up here* And, I'm 15 going to take the can so I can get the spelling right again* 16 So on the can it says dimethylamtne salt of 2,4-dlchloro- 17 phenoxyaceticacid, have I got that right, sir? 18 A That's correct* 19 Q Okay, So the definition of 2,4-Oi from the EPA book 20 and what1s o n .the can you'll see that they're the same with 21 respect to what I*ye underlined here.;on both, ten*t that *right, 22 except in the can it talks about the. dimethylamine salt, doesn' l 1< < . " *' * 23 it? -/ "'7:" r"' ^ , *` J - - 1 \- r 24 A That1s correct. \t ' j, j - 1 Q And, of course, Mr* Garr has already told you that ; 2 2.4- D1 goes Into this product, Isn't that correct? This Weed- 3 B-Gone? 4 A 1 think he did, yes, 5 Q All right, sir. Now, amine, my co-counsel has 6 corrected me that this ta amine. 7- Now,, if you refer to the documents that I wanted you to 8 look at; Plaintiffs9 1314, first of all. Do you have that 9 there, sir? '' 10 A Ye, do. Yes. . i l Q Now, it says, in paragraph two, "In 1981 Diamond was 12 able to use Monsanto 2,4-DCPonly in the production of amine 13 product." Is that right? 14 A That's correct. 15 , Q And that amine in this Plaintiffs* 1341 spelled 16 A-M, A-M-I-N-E is strikingly similar, is it not, sir,, to what 17 I have circled hare, that part of the word that Is what*s in 18 the can? / ... 19 A That's correct* . 20 Q And. then It said in 1982 Diamond will be able to uso 21 Monsanto's product to make amine, comma, ester and 2,4-Dl, or 22 2.4- D I should say, formulations, doesn't It? h* i p*- `\ 23 A Yes, it does. * , - Q Now, did anyone ever tell you, or did you ever hear, . - .f . . j 1 that when you make 2,4-Di, the herbicide, that what you first 2 make is the 2,4- diehlorophenoxyacet ic&cid? Anyone ever tell 3 you that? \' 4' A That that's the first step to making-** 5 Q That's the first thing you get. You make the 2,4 6 dlchlorophenol that Monsanto sells and others sell into 7 2.4- dichlorophenoxyaceticaeid. Anyone ever tell you that, or . 8 do you recall?, 9 AX-- IO Q If you don't recall, I just want to know. 11 A That's the first step in the production you say of 12 2.4- D? 13 Q Do you ever recall hearing that? t * y 14 A I frankly don't recall. i ", t 15 Q You don't know? 16 A Yeah, X don't know, 17 Q Did anyone ever tell you that after they make 2,4- 18 dichlorophenoxyaceticaeid that they then make an ester of It 19 and a salt of it and they can also make a dry formulation of It 20 A Ho. * 21 Q And do you just suspect, sir, if what I have just 22 told you is true, that when Mr,-- 23 MR. CARR: Your Honor, 1 submit this is hot a redlrec 24 examination, this Is Mr. Musgrave testifying. The witness 136 l obviously has no idea what he's talking about, and it's simply * *i 7 , - 2 - Mr. Husgrave testifying. I would object to him asking the 3- questions in the form;that he's asking:theta and ask.that he go . 'r'*l ;; iV-77 .... 7 X":. ]f`.\ . - .'7; - - r> 4 back to the standard and normal method of asking questions of 5 his own witness; .. -v 7 * V J ' ' - j 6 MR. MBS6RAVE: Your Honor, Mr. Carr-- / ' j 7*;Utf; : l- 7 ? ' `' r7 .MR. CARR: That is* hot leading and not suggestive 8 but asking for information and not suggesting things that the witness isn't'aware of. * . io. 1SR. tiUSGMWs Mr# Carr has asked the witness to n interpret the document and about possibilities of what the doeu* ment saysy and I intend to .ask him about a possibility of what 13 this document might say also Your Honor. \ ' ^1 t. \ 14 MR. CARR: Yes* Your Honor * but there's different - rules that apply when I ask the questions and when his own attorney asks the questions. 7 -- 17 . HR. MUSCRAVEi There sure are. 18 HR. CARR: 'Yes* there are# Did you mean to imply that 19 > Che Court is hot applying the proper rules whan, you said that:? 20 ,MR. .feOJSGRAVEj. Sot ai all. ' ', ? ft 21 MR. CARR: The point that I'm making* Your Honor, is 22 that I have not objectd in the past when the, even though it < T 23 24 is improper form of questioning your own witness the way he's , questioning him* I've hot objected to the witness at other 1 .. - *L _ 1 137 l times is aware of what Counsel is talking about and it saves , 2 ,time for Counsel to do the testifying rather than the witness, r 3 but in this' instance where the witness does not know what 4 Counsel ie talking about I do object and I do ask the Court 5 to enforce the standard rules; that are in existence for this '6 kind of examination and that7he not be (allowed to ask loading . i,-. / 7 or suggestive questions* . ' . -8 MR. MUSGRAVE:. I*11 rephrase the question, Your Honor. 9 THE COURT Okay, Objection is sustained, 10 .Q (Mr. Musgrave) Mr, Park, do you know whether the reference in the sentence that X just read to you, that is, ' 12 "In 1981 Diamond was able to use Monsanto 2,4-DCF only in the 13 production Of amine product," do you know if amine product 14 refers to' something different than a form of 2,4-dlchlorophenol1 15 A X have .no idea what he referred to, s- v 16 Q It could be. It couldn't be? 17 MR. CARR: X object to that form of question right at 18 that point. Your Honor, and ask that the jury be instructed to 19 disregard it. 20 MR. MUSGRAVE: Simply clarifying whether he has no 21 . idea one way or the other. 22 THE COURT I disagree with that. Objection is 23 sustained, 'The jury is ordered to disregard it, .24 Q (Hr. Husgrave) And, sir, in connection with the next f b a v o n n c , n .j , 1 sentence, MXn 1982 Diamond will be able to use Monsanto product 2 to make amine;--comma, ester and dry 2,4-D formulationa," Do 3 you know if that sentence le talking about three different ' f 4 types of formulations of 2 A-dichlorophenoxyaceticacid? 5 A X really don't know, 6 Q All right, sir. The author would know beet, wouldn't 7 he? 8A \ Yes, he would, ,, 9 MR CARR: Object to that question as well as leading 10 and suggestive. Ask. that the Jury be instructed to disregard 11 thae. 12 `' ' MR. MUSGRkVEs I 'll'rephr^oe it. 13 THE COURT: Objection is sustained. 14 Q (Hr. Hus grave) Would yod suspect, sir, that the 15 author would probably know best? 16 A I'm sure the author would have a better idea of what 17 he meant than X would, sir. 18 Q All right. How, also this document, of course, is 19 dated November 2, 1981, is it not? 20 MR. CARR: Object to the leading form of the question, 21 Your Honors ,r " , -' 22 A That's correct. < ,/ ;j f 23 THE COURT: Objection is sustained. : `34> 24 MR. CARR: Ask that the Jury be instructed to o ) 1 disregard it. . 2 THE COURT: Jury is so ordered. 3 Q (Hr. Husgrave) Uhat is the date of the document, 4 sir, Plaintiffs' 1314? 5 A November 2nd, 1981. 6 Q All right, sir^ And referring you to Plaintiffa 19 7 Exhibit ISIS, what is the date of that document? 8 A March 17, 1981. 9 Q And is March 17 1981 before or after November 2, 10 1981? 11 A .It would be several months, quite a few months before 12 Q All right. How, in-the document, Plaintiffs1 1315, vL ** + " p' 13 which you've said is dated March of 1981, there is a reference 14 to 2,4-dichlorophnol by Dr. Wilson; is there not, sir? 15 MR. CARR: Object to the leading form of the question 1, , ( i ,,L ` ; ' ,. 16 if it please the Court, and ask.the jury be instructed to V-V 17 disregard it. 18 THE COURT: Objection is sustained* Could you 19 rephrase it? 20 MR. CARR: Counsel, you know how to ask-- 21 MR. MUSGRAVEt Yes, Mr. Carr, I do, and I 'll apologia 22 to you and 1 will certainly ask the question. ; 23 Q (Mr, Musgrave) Is there m reference in the document 24 to 2,4-diehlorephenol? * 1 A Yes, there Is. 2 Q Is there one In the fourth line, sir? 3 A Yes, there Is. 4 Q And whet ere the numbers thet Immediately precede 5 that reference, sir? 6 A Ninety*three percent. 7 Q Do you know whet 93 percent means with reference to 8 2,4*dlchlorophenol as used by Dr. Wilson in this letter, sir? 9 A No, I do not. 10 Q All right, sir. Nov, with regard to Plaintiffs1 11 Exhibit 1314, if you would look at the second page of that. 12 I'm sorry. Let's look at the first page first, paragraph two. 13 In that second paragraph do you see a reference to dlchloro14 phenol with a percentage used in close vicinity to it? 15 A Yes. 16 Q All right, sir. And would you read that sentence to 17 the Jury? 18 A "Also Diamond has obtained a higher assay source of 19 MCA, which will allow them to effectively use 93.5 percent as 20 a DCP in all of their 2,4*D products." 21 Q That's 95.5 percent, sir, you say? 22 A Yes. 23 MR. GARRt Object to that, Your Honor. Leading form 24 of the question. 1 THE COURT: Objection sustained. Could you rephrase 2 it, please? 3 MR. MUSGRAVE: Yes. 4 Q (Mr. Musgrava) What was the percentage again, sir, 5 that you read? 6 A Ninety-five point five percent. 7 Q And, sir, is 95.5 percent, sir, greater or less than 8 93 percent? 9 A It's greater than 93 percent. 10 Q Uh huh. And do you have any understanding of the 11 difference between 93 percent 2,4-dichlorophenol and 95 per 12 cent 2,4-dichlorophenol? 13 A I really don't know what that means in terms of the 14 products. 15 Q Do you know whether Monsanto manufactured 93 or 16 manufactured a 95 percent 2,4-dichlorophenol that they sold to 17 Diamond-Shamrock in 1982? 18 A I don't know. 19 Q And referring you to the second page of Plaintiffs' 20 1314, sir, would you read that last paragraph to us? 21 A Yes. "Diamond may be able to utilise the tank car 22 of 93 percent 2,4-DCP, which we now have loaded and ready to 23 ship. However this material would have to be segregated and 24 used only in amine production. Diamond would prefer that we 1 rework this material to the 95.5 percent assay level.** 2 Q Sir, is the 95.5 percent number referred there in 3 paragraph five, is that the same number referred in paragraph 4 two? 5 A Yes, it is. 6 Q And is that the same, and it referred in paragraph 7 two, that is in connection with what with regard to Diamond8 Shamrock products? 9 A In paragraph two Diamond is saying that they will be 10 able to effectively use 95.5 percent assayed DCP in all of 11 their 2,4-D products. 12 Q Do you know if Monsanto ever manufactured or started 13 selling a 95 percent or 96 percent 2,4-dichlorophenol? 14 A I don't know. 15 Q Do you know if Diamond-Shamrock only used 93 percent 16 dichlorophenol in their amine salt of 2,4-dichlorophenoxy17 acetlcacid? 18 A I don't know. 19 Q Do you know whether Diamond-Shamrock used, on the 20 other hand, a 95 or 96 percent 2,4-dlchlorophenol for other 21 formulations of the 2,4-dlchlorophenoxyeceticacld? 22 A I don't know. 23 Q Is it possible that the reference in the letter, sir, 24 to the use of Monsanto's products, of Monsanto's 2,4-dichloro- V ;1- V fc j, , r 2 V. o >-i,W / ` y/,- " -- h / _ * -vv- t kt m>* Lh/ j f ' rv . Jfr , r ` ` ' `i. ' , T,-A J.' . \ J ,r V;-,. - L^ -V * , " . ` , ' r'* *. 'b ) f ^ ` }>r`/ nr'} i -r ... i J ' L ' 1 " ' * r ' ^* I . *" * V -1-A. - .* a ^ ,1 fJl" r V- " Mh TMr * "'Z ///" * L fcJ - 'Jr phenol means that Diamond-Shamrock would, only use. 93 percent * ? ", -Jr^r'L-1 ';/ "-1,\J L L * J '':t '^ 1^ dihlorophenol manufactured b Monsanto for; ite amine product 143 3 *f - 4 because Monsanto dida* t ,manufacture at that t i m e a 95.5 or - 96 percent pure 2,4-dichlorophenoX? .pichlorophenol. : " . ':5' ,v - A y ,That ,c o u l ^ ^ the caso. ; ' :; 1, . ; r - - ',,1 _r ' t '-.'*' 'f' ' 1. f ` ri ;' L " ' 6; * ``: Q / Of ;didn#t heve^ an assay that was high enough to roach 4 ^^ t *' ' '* * **4 * -ij, ^ - * - . p ^ -,i '-`.y; - 7/; 'their lveig , +* . 1 ^ ' " LtV * , -C- 1 'r t ^ j - / y / 8"-* ,A: ' Yes . L ; V 9V / : MR/.. CRRV.. bject to the. leading form of the question - / i o , , Your Honor. Ask that tha jury be instructed to disregard the , 1 ** - v _ /, il - '- .. .. . ' " . ' j. r , :question.. r/ ,/ / z " . r" 1 'f ^. "V?. " I ' \ 'V . " 1 ' :/'/ ].,,/ `` t i:2; ' . > r, ; 13- THE COURTi Sustained, ^The Jury is so Instructed. ; / ::< . 'y*.,- J i,iZ' ` ./ 'l -, ^ MR. 'MUSGRAVEr Request permission .to' pass the can -of c, /. T I ^ 14 is , Weed-B-Gohe to;the jury so.theycansee, the informtion-onit * y Your Honor, that I*ve copied on th board. ,ri6' ; ; `- T H K :COURTt; tifo'& beaAdmitted? /; 17.;. ''?. / -/' 18,'; L/ / f; ^SGtVl; /Yes>:^ ^" J^ THE COURT:"'Fine/; Then you can, pass `it./ 1 ,;/'// ^ ;; 19/; /:/- Q ..^-ry txsgrav) -Kfow, Dr. Park could you .get out-for 20 -me-- Excuse me. /;iV'Ualling^`you;Dr;i;ltark'hcw, Mr. -Park/ could youyget/outf,-fot'-it'Plaintiffs*/ 1297? Those are' *" \;2% 1 your minutes ;from the ttrathal 6 (e) meeting in January of 1935 "J\ P / \ >. .,-.24. . A .v-Yesr/I have, it/ ./I ^ : Q How/ d o you also have the exhibit Mr. Carr had you ; P EN GAD 'CO., BAYONNE, N,J. 702 F O R M Lit/ 24 B i\^lVAfJ/ %V"1 * ** ** V- r" in'-r -f Vt, ^ S sii : '' r // 2v L ^/ *3 L4 144 . -7 ' ' 7', vy v- / 7 A y y ln i! ,*7 ' \ ' ' , Af <J>' l\.. '1, $-rW-/ ' L r - '-c :: /: . . -* ;y-.. ' t y look at today In connactionwith that Plaintiffs 1312? y. < 7 : . ` \ r'' i ' .V ; .`j ift> 7 * y y `V* .. the Long, Timothy J. hong jneispraxiduffi to Dr. RouahV > *' r - That' ' r.y . yea. j* ,, i:'11`c; 'Vi V f V i ; i/ -..fS. i. i.,. . Q How; this memorandum- of 'Hr. .Long to Mr,; or.Dr, Roush . . 5 J _ls dated January 23_1985? vy/; "- ^;5 7 , 7 ' 'r;! .7/" , 6* V -7V A ~ ^* 7 y y / v ' \ "f ' r ` y? y'7 ... 7y- Q Ie that the came date; air; that In fact the meeting J-8'-' was;`-held,;-the''8(a) feting?' Was it held that same day? yV .9 7 ,1 ; yy "As'"'TJ\h/>at.8-^s-`;corr"ecL`t.>v/-ly-y y . -s , / ' ` /.v* *7-j--i -` ;.~ '1 * a `\ j , 'r "V *v l f J1 m t j, J " *1. - j Q ;r"And that1a shown on Pialntlffa< ^hibit^l297? ' ii., Ir 12 . 13 14,; - 15, -.46 j A'-.-'.'i e e . '/ `-1 'v . r'- >' /, " * `r ' ' ` C;:\7' V : ,. ,--- 7 '7'->, : . 7` ';7 /r W-- ' : '> : ; ./ .' Q Howi .before that meeting* -1 believe you got a copy of the Dr. Nair toemor didn't you? K ".;/;- . - V, > . 'i./S i.A `_ Ye.':;, - " 7, 1 ;; r Q And* of, courseirit*^ dated .ometIme before the date of the meeting* January 237 f ' .17 ' . 18; ` 19/ , 20 2 i; A Yes,` ,I received a copy,attached to Dr, l^vinakas8 'r ' 7 ' *J' t y;.^'"V , - v memorandtieiiy V - . ' . y .Vv' / ^ /L " 7 r y * y, ^ '"<v > / 7 y./! -r^y-y , y ./*- -7 :^ .7 - y r.` 7 ' ' 4 . But if this exhibit of Hr i Long was prepared oh the , - - ry , y'^i 'y--"y -r' v y y ^V*.'7V',,; '". . -y''*- '-,'y day that it bears and in fact was delivered to Dr. Roush on 7 yl:?C. > * ' ' r 7.-V " .y '*V-:"yy^ ' v ' ; yy that same day, ;then he got it the earns day of the,meeting? ,2 ? / . 23 . A ``'ihat's correct.'; -"`7 ,7 * y Q, : How/ l d o n ^ have copies of this, but let me have it ` .`24. marked.- , !.. 7 - t.-s7 y y - _' .. i M:,, . , : PENGAO CO/. BAYONNE. N j . r rj*11 1 2 (At this tizne Defendant's Exhibit 883 was marked for 3 identification by the court reporter.) 4 5 Q (Hr. Musgrave) Handing you what's been marked as 6 Defendant's 383. Can you identify those, sir? 7 A Yes. These are my notes taken during the 8(e) meeting 8 on tetrathal on January 23rd( 1985. 9 0 All right, sir. How, when you went to that meeting 10 did you have Dr. Hair's memo with you, or do you recall? 11 A 1 think I would have had Dr. Hair's memo, yes. 12 Q And did you have a copy of Dr. Levinskas's memo, that 13 would be-- 14 A Yes, I did. 15 0 What did I do with that one? Yes, Dr. Levinskas's 16 memo. 1 think you had a copy of that at that time, too? 17 A Yes. Dr. Hair's memo had been attached to Dr. Levlnsk 18 memo. 19 Q And previously I believe I had youidentifyinforma 20 tion that Dr. Wilson had provided to the committee that I 21 believe you said Mr. Papageorge brought? 22 A Dr. McCarville. 23 Q Dr. McCarville? 24 A Right. 1 Q All right* That was Defendant's Exhibit 864, wasn't 2 it? With the information from, not only Dr. Wilson, but from 3 Mr. Wolfsberger? We went through all of that. 4 A Yes. 5 Q Now, the information of Mr. Long being generated on 6 the 23rd-* Well, strike that. You don't recall ever seeing 7 this until I think you said this morning, is that correct? 8 A That's correct. 9 Q Now, with regard to your notes that you took at that 10 meeting and with regard to the minutes that you put out from 11 those notes, anywhere in those notes or those minutes is there 12 any specific reference to any of these documents that you had 13 at the meeting, that you can remember having--the Nair memo, 14 the Levlnskas memo, the Wilson report with the Wolfsberger 15 Information attached? Are any of those things specifically 16 referred to therein? 17 A Not in my notes. There would be no point in doing 18 that. 19 Q I think Mr. Carr had asked you if there had been any 20 specific reference to this Long memo to Dr. Roush in your notes, 21 didn't he? 22 A Yes. 23 Q But there's no reference to any of this information 24 that you do recall having there in your notes or minutes, isn't . 4 ' '.:>U X47 1 that correct? " V :`' V ' r r"-*' v : ^ . * * * * i * * 1 r* r' L' \ .m 4 '2 A N o . ` No, tliat's correct, tJHot iu ray notes, .. * -. * l" . - . ; >. , , ,, 1. ^ . f' 1 03 Q How about in yur minutes? ", - . ,- i > i. i' ,, "c 4 r m" h 1 ' , "l * % jjr ' r ' " ' r '+ r t - * ^ !* ,, t 4 .. A My minutes do make reference to the, the LevJnskas 5 : memo, the Hair memo and the additional documents that mere > V1. - 6 V brought to the meeting by pr. HcCarviile. .. > - If] ' * Q All. right, there i s fno reference then to the Long 8.?. memo there, is there then?" 'V\- / 9 - A ' -'No, thereJIfinVt.^v-. ; ^ ' ,/ I0\ <J All tight. And you don't recall seeing ,it until I II think you said, this Corning? J 12 : , A -Yea.^ - ` ` '' * ' ,\ \/,; ^` ,V 13 Q And you don't recall whether it was discussed or 14 ; mentioned at the meeting one way or ^the other? , 15 , .tA r I don't recall,it/ >- 1 L '' . -- r ' t(, ; - tr - - ' ' '- ll * ^ *- L 16 / 'Hv m\'*\ ^ - *`: *^ 1 1 / \/ ' Q / With regard to the' Long memo, 'sir, Mr. parr examined :17,! you.atrlength dn :it. It's Plaintiffs1, Exhibit-1312? . % .18 \ A \ \ Y e s , . I have;, it /<_ -- J S- , V. > v I ''' " "/ * ` ", - r\ r', 1? . / . J ", ^' . - - _ . J Jv ., -- Q t How, first of all, on^the'second page you'll recall 20 that it was stated by Mr. Long that, ?,Aa can be seen die virtual ly 21 safe doses are-similar using the EP and CDC. criteria, but - 22 " 23 24 drastically differ employing FDA's criteria.-,l ; - i ; . 'r ` j 1 '/ \ ;j , r >\ -- : i . ^ iy. i*.< ')Jf *" ` that sentence being redd, to you? ..,/ .* ^ v 1 ,v ^ A % I certainly do/ / ; .. / : ; .*/ ^ fr,\ ;*7.i ; : \ , ' *- ' - * i ":$r - r' v -`lV-" l: Do you recall , i ', ,. ` PEN G AD CO*. BAY ONN E, N.J. 0 7 002 tv * v; p -J . ` 1." ' ' _(" ;11 L I,r'mRw` f-w'fV `J ;)%v t ` -i- ;" >*1, . k ` -< ' ' , ivJr '* t 'i\ . ,, . r '.t-1,.>,.-,1 -'v ."-'..V' ` , - ' " V wa `j,/,A. '* 1^ Q .And Hr *: Carr CquestibhedVyou bstensively about.the. wortL , t`-7"1 * ; r r *~ \% , .(, \ < JT 2..; similar? ^ *r~r . * i ,' 3 A; ^Tiiat'.a .correct. 1 4 fIs that' right? '^T.`-* t /' ' J; .. ;; r'- '-'"'.,'.'-5'` ' /' -1 ' ' 5 , !,-` yas. ;:*' V'\ V"' . ' 6 9 ' And you had some trouble with that , sir? 7 ;* a `I certainly did; : :' J . , - -. 8-_ Q And the EPA criteria and the CDC criteria are the one*: 9 referred to on. page one respectively, as nuiabers, Komsn numeral 10. .one and Korean numeral two? -.'- . - ; . -- PENGAD CO..' BAYONNE,' N.'j. 7 0 0 1 FORM It. 24 B n ' A That's correct.' 'a ^ViJ \ ' - 12 . . 9 , And incidentally, both of these are for 2,3,78-TCDD, 13 .' are they not? ? r ./v* " .* .,r 1 ", ,,, ^ v . - ^ 14 : A That is correct-.;. '. ^ Jrv\. a ' ' IS 1 --> 16 ' Q . In fact, all three of them are for 2,3,7.S^TCDD? Tliat' is right; ;;a '; '^ . ' 17 , Q They are not criteria for the other dioxins, which is 18 in fac1t",'''wha*t/i*ways "found *ri*n th1e t-et'rathl i '* ' ' J 19 . a ; y That1s correct - .;.No..2,3,7, S-TCDD was found in the s r*\E- r 20 product, tetrathal, as I recall. ' t \ -* -i 21 Q. All right. And these criteria talk about cancer for 22 ' ^ !' j,. 1 * ' - "i` . n r" the EPA 'water criteria' `and, number two *. the CDC risk assecernent\ * * m*^-\ w ' '' f h>ii ' 1^ i ' 23 do they not? 24 A ' Yes. '' ' ` r -' ** -; 'j ,jl, ' 'Jr^n'*`Lv*..-- . _ . -. '.*''i.,ll.,r,,_ ''.." ,. ^'1_'`t\*' ' 'rJ 1' ,>i''f1?"i, " . -.J . ' t r 149 \ ;wV 7' - ^^ ^ - fc:1V t h ^ Ay' \ v' *J . i -- Q The isecondVone,'`^ e i t h i t d f 'one'-.doesn't talk about ,, - ^2 3 cancer, "T, < r.& ,though, ,,It* j u s t ;talks..about healths risks,. doesn *tit?' /. / ',r. \h,i>'/ ,4 *- ` '.J . '1J ` Vi1' > 11 Jt . * i ~, ,1 - t 1 .v |/ l V ., . ! , . i j , ' ' I Ir ',J 'J'T[f ' 1 ' \, ' *i , . r -. -r* ;&? r:^ - . Ji'-'` .;/. ' ' 4-- < Q ;Andfurthermore,7sir, they/r talking about risk. 1 : " .. 's'i m \ y\< -,f'? >.\ '*ri 'r , " -J Don t they :use the.word risk .there? ; v -_ 1Y C / ; P E N G A D ^ C O ..B A Y O N N E , N j , 07002 FORM IL 24 B . 6; . ;,r7 < . '8 / 'A- Yes,rthey ,do , % /' -T1 ,-1 ' V.;< " 1" L>" : /r ^'V<< ; '/ ^ ' . J'' `:'V ; f . r; Q Is the risk the saine as probability or, \letme reph^aae `./''*x . \y ,/, .j . '' 1 ; v-:. that, l^Ir. Carr kept asking you questions about getting cancer.| 9;:// in connection with these lassessments^ Do you recall that? i.1^0 'j' ' a A \ -Yes,.. 1 do*, :y'<'-r; ' r '* ' ^ J' r,, ^ *ii V Q. Is ,the word risk 'the same; as<saying that, something ; 12 will happsii? j^ 13 ^ , ME, CARR; I Object to; the leading form of the questiejn 14 vvf, ' 15 .16 mj ' . * r THE COURT: Obj action! suetained. . \ . ' k * ds y ^ 1j j i *' ' . ' v * . i *1 . , " > ' * . , ' ' ' " *r 4 , J * 4 ~ j my y i t r ' r J ) '` i . p, i KR. CARR? -The witness stated his otm opinion of it; ; i "<V''< ' ` 'V, .< Y & COURTi. R^lirasejiti please, V' 17 <; * Q '(Mr..Musgrave) ;Is the word risk-- then if 11 ask him-- * `*1T 18 r Do you have?an opinion as' to whether'the word risk is the same1 <19. . ; as certainty that something will happen? i. ' 20 A.;- 'r/'Hop: They, have different meanings";- - '1/;_ 21 i 41 <../ ,Q! How, coming back " t h e m t h e calculation that Ipng did ; 22/' under the ERA water .criteria resulted in ,37,' and I thinIc:Mr, 23 .. 24 *, Carr went per, day. oyer this with .you, that* s femtograma par kilogram . j,- ; `C , . r f r$ . . >:i s ;-, 'j . c i , 1 . 'fi; .- ri 150 ;iV t ' i*V A Yes. r -,4 / : . MR. CARR /Object, to theleading /form f the question A.' \ / / / v-, // ;A; / V V v- ,// -7' ; 7 :4 r,'i f Lit ppleeaaseUe'7th CourtV 7V/" A :\A " J /--''-V* 'i4' yjhJ:- \\ THE;GOURT:;v Objection/sustained. .Rephrase it, please, 5 - -, 7 ', ;m ; :imq'BAyt/vYeeA-.* / v ; *'/'; r v.1 / ,6 7" -8 9 \ j * 7 ** ' /, - .> Q ./ 4 1 10*5*'- ^ ' r ' * ir * * s ^'*-,7 ' " t % - v ' -* i ) . i A 4 ,L . ' . I'l/' 4- > i t 1' " 4' ' ' L , - ,*" t .^ ' * M J L' ; .(Mr.' -Mi9grav)A-/;iUuderi Romah\ numeral number one what v ' v 7 :/ V ./g* were the results found# /^ir? :/7/V/7; .V- *' V V ' - v'; '7 ' - ' ' f ! fi \4' If'', *V-v.i '- -V1- >-v * L r ` ` tr ' ' - ,<- / A .His final resultiwas'0,37 'femtograme per kilogram per V i - ' 1 1 '1 . . V :;-'"''/'*/-* * - -,,'>TV.-.I.'*, . - ' f.( 1day* / ,; ! '/./A 1 \ "'A-AV," ;- J'V 7 : Q Jind under, ntanb.hr tf*7b what was th calculation results 'il - A, `The result was/S' femtograms 'per kilogram; per day; | ^ -.V . '' ; * i'v * * r` ^ A* j /1 J ^' T 12 :, ^ ; And if you-compare those numbers by dividing .37 J3 ;into 28 what, do you g e t s i r ? ry / ; V A -A/-'/" r ; V . ` V - - V - < V T : ' /r'v'V^ - ; 7 14". i V/ A '-'You',,get around' 75 .V .* ;// ;?,^ ./ / - 'iA,'"r: - J' :15l .Q -One is 75 greater than the other? ,7 f./ *;i *' i-v 1 - 1 v . J; . ?, vvV^vV7- i .f-7 . ' K \ , ;v : l \ ' r >/ 1.J 'r , :6 _ A;v.Yes,75 tinies the other. ^ ; A_.^ +, 77 A .K Q. ^iiid^ that hyevfi^ythidgvt .J^/^^th'the .di^iculty yd^- 18 were having with the word eiclilar? ; / ^ \,^/7 /-' '*' .V.f }J , , . ' '|- ^ ^ .` ' r ,' ' 1 ^ r ` t , "l i f . T ] i . r (i __ L- i<* -. r, - - ,, * > j. - * H ! t u ** r. ,, - -- I* ' ( ^i> ri V-. , '19. ; `V,. A lit 'certainly did; .! could see^ on the''fce:of..'the ; '1 ,/ J ,r_ V* -- *1 - 7 V -* ' j"' , ' V ^ 20 . ^1 J " t .. i.* \ docunient that; these / v L|^ '- ' ' V<i'>",V * 1' " J two results ,wefe;vastly *\ 7* ^ ' Ir different#',' and tw r I :J|V 21 ^ ws^having#,: I couldnVt see the word similar being properly ,22 , " , r'^r; ,f ' `'r . - ' , -rj - ^ ^ ? - '' V "r % Used to refer to both of/those things.. They are not similar,/ '2 3 ,.' ;; 1- - / ; / ' A" ; , ; / j v j 24 , Q But you are not a toxicologist? `.t.r. " ; 7 -V' v ` i - r - :-f. 1" < v : ;*?1 1 * Jl k . - - ' ; PENGA CO .. BAYQ NNE. ,, N.J .:1 07002 FORM IL, 24 B 151 ... i ; . A , That's correct. I v a s juct looking at the huinbers.: " ,`r* 12, Twenty-eight to. my mind l:s not, similar to v37. Something ' i /. ' 3 one-third of one. ^ v '', 4 -i 5 r Q ,> `But1?v -v , it ` may bis. to a , l . v-J toxicologist , v' * .v for ail "' you know? 1 / 1 A 'Could be. 'L'J --r - >' L 1 6 1r f Q ; .How, in any event, "Mr. Long goes on to say, does ho. ,- r1 -n', 8i*,-r4> ;. ; , -'r'f \\* 'L ,h / -V.-.>' ,`f\ ... - _Vr,' r 4j\ 8 . MR.\CARR;\ Object .to the leading f o r m o f t h e q u e s t i c n 9 ; cf -V" * Q (Kr. >isgrave);:/Would.y o u jre&d for ma then, sir, 'after ' ' ,! ' ---- i 'it > 1*, J ; -V:j.. y '1 - th sentence that w e 've just looked at what the next sentence' ,r ^^ r *. > ~ J ;f:Y" *;'^ Y* ;!''' *i says ? The.oriQ'Gtartingwith if.- ' ' t '* ' ,- ,y ^ ,, ; ti: r":- 'Y`;V' ;J .'JY.1 *'I2 A "If one compiars thetcalculated daily exposure to ' * ` - c ; -r 1. , . ; -* v ` f 13 PCDD1s i n ,ttrthl, paren, 12,800. fmtograms per kilogram per - ,14 ' 15 16 day, closed parn,' with those'numbers, the calculated'PCBD | 1 ,, 4# "r * j , exposure exceeds .all these rvalues " - ,j h Qr All right, low, all of the; calculated exposures ini . "-17 Mr. long's memo:were with regard, to what substance; sir? . 18; . A . 2,3,7,8-TCD30. ''V- ;` * * . ' . ; ; : k* v 1 ' : , I9 , Q , Does he state that-in the document? _n - ] f -'20 A , .YeS, he .does'' .`v ; : '' ^ . ... . ` 21' v 22 . . 23 24 ,,L`x* Q Where does he state that, sir? V A In items one, two and. .three. r /, ;*:<* : .> ; lv;;'-1, \ , .. * t/ j Q All right. And on page two what is the next senten-ci.e then, sir, If you would read it, .after the one you just read?! }\ ,$i P E N C A D CO. 1 A "It should be noted, however, that all of tha calcu 2 lations above were for the 2,3,7,3-tetrachloro Isomer. The 3 most toxic and the most extensively studied PCDD." 4 Q I think it says the only extensively studied. 5 A I'm sorry. "And the only extensively studied." 6 That's correct. 7 Q All right, sir. And then what is the next thing 8 that he says with reference to the calculations he's made? 9 A He says, "To assume that the carcinogenic potential 10 of all PCDD's is equivalent to the 2,3,7,8-TCDD without test 11 data may not be appropriate." 12 Q All right. And what's he referring to there, sir? 13 Do you know? 14 A I would assume he's saying that you should not, one 15 should not apply the carcinogenic potential of this most toxic 16 dioxin isomer to any other dioxin isomer. 17 Q And what's the next sentence, sir? 18 A He concludes, "Thus, the calculated exposure to 19 PCDD's in tetrathal probably would present a significantly 20 different risk than an equal exposure to 2,3,7,8-TCDD." 21 Q "A significantly different risk than equal exposure 22 to 2,3,7,8-TCDD." Is that what it says? 23 A That's right. 24 Q Now, do you have Dr. Levinskas's memo up there, sir? \ v f"wy .153 :* 1/ 2' A ' Ves. I do. V Y' / .v ; Q And In paragraph/ two of'Dr. Levinskas^s .memo to Dr. ; u 3'v Roush, wbuld/you/read the second* or road that second paragraph - 4 air?-'/ -v^^y V -:;v v- -/;/ / / . ' .`Y '/ Y * ' ` ,' 5 ! . t ''Since TCDDw as found only in waste dust at 1.5 ppb, Y-./ 'J` 7V7'7Y'' ^ ^ '7,-;7/7 -\7 ., ^ *' , .,, -/ ' ' 6 the calculations ;regarding potential BGDD expoer from tetrad - ^* 'v ` r'' -t \ , , ` ,J ^ J( ` 1 " -' , 1, i t.'i ' ; 7 . , , thal' represent an extreme situation which -greatly exaggerates '''; . *- \ d - lj J; ' 9? ifcfeC r8k.M V .. ' r' i 11 < : , .f * * ; + ^ t :"7 / V"- i- p - v i* , ~, w^ .Y\ ' "/Y'- .7 7 - ` '; ' *> *v ' , u j f- t .* ' ' '7 1 7^' ^ ' f i? h V . , ;Q Novr with regard to :th/last sentence, i MrV,Long Vs . v 'io; ; memorndum that 'Mr. Carr'Had you readf do you recall if he 7-7> -y - "* ' .v- 4 * 1 7 ^r '- . r . , r- ' ' . a > - l1 , a J * , 1 ,1 J j a. ^J .. ^ r - * i* " 1 - h > * * L *- ^1 y f lif J h^ f -rf ; :asked you questions about the term Actual risk mid calculate? V ? 12"' SA r _'VSj. . - u_jn/- \ ,T I . ` J-' \ii - Q; . ^ ' * L J- i j ,s 11 * f ^1 ^ he aeked you, if l recall correctly* or do you / - J k.,d-- ti-r'' 't f- s *-r, /. t z1V- l4\; recal 1 ^if' he?;asked; you whether this [sentence meant that it v a s . -/JIS*//. impossible to calclatela risk''and that, therefore; -the risk \ r i ? - ^ *> ;. ' ^5, r "'" 'j 'j''*' ' ( * r ^ t ,,r- . i ' - ' ' ; ' . ` ^ -, ` i 16 might be-, g2retr.`or--Vlesser/;th& 'the/itlsk for 2,3,7,8? Do you' ; .-17 7 recall'whether:he askd you a question /like that? /. c , -A i 'V/ ; '\r- V :'7' : v /<' I/seem to recall that type of question? yes. . " 'Q ./And do you fecali your ansx^er, sir? ^;/'-//' . -, ti ' . 7 * ^ 2 0 .:`V .A l believe.my answer was that X Would construe that V* - V P; , j' . " *a T ' p 1*2V'/- sentence to mean simply that he/,did not have sufficient informa1 f. ; 22.`' tien to.actually calculate the risk,, but that it still could : 2 3 ./ be .estimated.' .'/-',/ - /:/' / ,L-,. ,/ 24 ' *.;i Q. And X know you're not a toxicologist,,.sir, and. X know jjt i? - VA''.T 1 ' P -1 BAYONNE,- N.J, -07002 FORM L, 24 B ' r `/1 -J? , ' ` -. 1 ' .. j ' , F ', -s' ; v r i, 1 *-. . .^ ' .-;.>-/v, ^*.v>'v'*- `-1' -,;; , 'V , " '< ''x * '' v -. ' ' ' ' ''> .,^1 r': 1 i,* >**l , " t *>, .' // i ,, /that some of these documents you have difficulty interpretBg9 /- ',a ' 4 * * -v .I" i,;r/\ j'11 : '^ "jl ivr' V 154 - 2 ,J but given the lahguage on the last page-- Let m e rephrase t h a t , 3: Dq.ypu understand fr o m t h e language ori the last page that, it* a j : ' 4 ` generally r e c ^ l s d that" 2V3/7,8V dloKin is the most toxic of . ... . J 1`,,> - 1 -` 1 `4 T W ^ rri ^ 1 ' -1L ^ ,,^( * 1 -2,r v \V 5. J';'1he d i o k i n > V ; ,J '>,i;/.iV-_; r1 H ** ' * ' . 1 J, y ' , ^ - ' " >* , f''` ,4 * ^ 1^ *11_1-1 V ' Jjj m' .- ;r6/ l ; AJ t,-iI dv'o x*an)derst: and th)Aat.,'`l'V> : 1 1L 1. -'"/`v `V ^1 -J' V.1 ?' -1 ; r " / f ' ,'- ' . 1 T. . - 11 ' >*' ' Q ;; And if, therefdre/ in.a product 2>3 f7 , 8 i s not pre / '-8,' sent, but some other dioxins,/do p have Just a general lay. ,r- v /. ';;* 9 t;, ^undorstanding ,of whether, the product t^oiild be less or more - i ';/ r io: atoxic'giveri equal amount? : ;/ ;J'' ~ 1 11 . *-A -- . It. would be ^ opinion that the product ^ould have to r r i. 12 ' ;bo less toxic, because I have .heard or r e a d .many times^ that / . 'v 13 ,2,3,7,3-TCDD is the most.',toxic 'of all the dioxin Isomers ; ' ]l, 414 ; * / Q ! So when br. Long talked'about a. significant difference P E N G AD C O . . B A Y O N N E , N . J . - ' 0 7 0 0 5 F O R M ' I L 24 B ; -4 is" ' ^ : //' the ri0k :,/.was h o talking, about/ in.: our opinion/-a greater/ , 16 " :rrisk, o r a l i e s er risk?.. -`'y 1 -V J * * t ' . , ..J-/; 17' ' / 1 A70ld ,think'he /'tTOijdd be; indic7rtnng" tnt the risk , :J-/; . ,/ i 'S,4 .>5/ -\( / -/ 1'^.r y j/4^. / - /v.u 4? * 1 ' ` t, , :' '18'':; would be .significant .les ; ;Chn would;the risk from exposure /L4";' 1(1*'9J.v; ' to 2,3,-7;8-Tcb: 4 4 4 > `4 4 * ' J ' ; ... ^ , /r- V ^, *V L ^*-L\1 ,,* - h'l*,T'$*'*$** > . ,'' ;:' "/. 20 r* Q And Dr, Nairf-a memo, '-sir, that you received, she was ^ - ' t ,y- [,4r : -/1^- J-.' -v / ,j-* ; ' /(V j ' 1,; a . - t . 't ' / \ ^ ,'i ', , , / '21 ; ' c o m p a r i n g - ' / ^ L o t in e l s f e ; '6u-iV';!s;i r , i \ s h e 'm a d e -a' - c a l c u l a t i o n * -d id /: i *; -*1.- -,,- 22 i r ' U - ' L 1 F ^ J.-^ u'11 " s h e n o t ? v ///'' - ^JL. "^ ` 1-1 - ,p '- * Lj\ m., 4 \ `- i' fV ij - / - . l \ V . / ' i >h. \. +1p "1 J' ' ' 1V ' Jr . 2 3 ,,t y ^* * -, " 24 'A, ^-Y'.v-*:Q^, /'s ,h -. d, -i d , '-,: ./i / .i /v ^4 . 1'-1' ^- 4 -Jj*vv 1 J\ / ' V V . - 4 ..v , ; ' - -,;j />J . Q . . O f e x p o s u r e . ;., A n d w h a t ..w a s / t h e 4'* . , r e s u lt 1o f , 'v . " her L t ^i - . ^ - ,, M* / " l/ 4 / / / / / / 'V -'--'/. / ' > ^ \. j ' - . J' ., -' / . j- 4 ; -: / - , --v 4 , 4` ivl-V ' i > - 3 /y'- \ \ :/ : \ .' J /: / ' ' .> `, 4 - - - - v . '" " ` '4 4 -.' >, 1 c a lc u la tio n ? 2 A The result of her calculation was that exposure to, 3 to tetrathal over a seven day period would result In 12,800 4 femtograms per kilogram per day. 5 Q All right. And was that based upon fact or assisnp- 6 tions, sir? > 7 A Assumptions. 8 Q And does she state any place in the document that 9 they are assumptions as opposed to facte? 10 A She states that.. She says, "1 have calculated the 11 potential body burden of dioxin among workers exposed to tetra~ 12 fchal using the following assumptions." And then she lists thom< 13 Q A.ll right. And then after she made the calculations 14 that you've just given us, did she compare that to a standard 15 of some kind? 16 A Yes. 17 - Q .And was that a calculation for-- Let tne ask you, 18 what was that a, what did she compare that with, sir? 19 A She then makes reference to a criteria document from 20 the National Research,Council, of Canada, which apparently has 21 a virtually safe dose "for. one in a million cancer risk as 22 30 to 90 femtograms per kilogram per day of 2,3,7,8-tetrachlorp' 23 dibenzo- dioxin i 24 Q So;she compares :It again to a calculation involving 1 J , V ,V - ? -* ^'5; i i v - '*--? 2,3,7,8 ? - '; .;.. . > :'`V* -\/'; ._ : / , /. .A- Ybs., r ' } . ^ ' '; ',;> `" \' Q As oppoeod co the type'of dioxin that was, In fact in -the product? 1 ' 'v\' / <-7 `v- ;/ \ rr' * -/ -7 ;''vr' V'- ' A' ^ T h a t 's correct. 1 ", *.' '/ ``-v7 r , -, .7 ,L `7 y";` , " THE COURT: Mr. 'Husgrav,: is this good point Co takst a-break? / /' rv 7;,.' 7 ; ./' 7"' '.7 .-' 7 - 1 v.7.7 7 MR, MUSGRAVE;'7 I think ;it. is* Your HonorV ... THE COURT* Ladies and-gentlemen, we?il:take a short J. ^` " * . *' i , * -4 t- break at this time and then w e 'll rsum testimony. -The \ . admonishments that I 've given you earlier'will apply, during'*- this break also;- J J 7 r ., , Court? S'in-recess. 7 . >' , . (hereupon a brie receas was had.) S^. MUSGRAVE:., Your Honor,-before, we proceed, it's just been brought to m y ,attention that;the defendant's exhibit that I 've Just marked, the handwritten notes regarding the .J tetrathal^ meeting of January 23, 1983 which the reporter marked as 883, we already, have an 883 and this should be 888. And 7 may the record reflect this that has how been done. ^ THE COURT: The record so reflects. r f-i f- 7 / ' 7 /"'Oi''*7 M& mj'SGEAVEs '^TKank-you.i , - ''V' 7/7 . t i ' t *- 1 Q (Hr, Hus grave)' 'Mzv Park,lwith regard to. the, remOmbei 2 the meeting of Hay ;1 1 ,; 1979, the one involving 2,4-dichlorophen: * 4 *t t i * \ |i 3 and the 2,4,6-trichlorophenol? Bo you remember the references 4 to that, sir? 5 A ' Yes. 6 Q And the decision was made to have the* particular 7 article in the Federal Register reviewed by Dr. Roush? 8 A That's correct. 9 .Q And to reconvene at a later date? 10 A That's right. 11 Q And, Doctor, I believe you told us in Dr..Roush*a. 12 absence Dr,,Paget reviewed that for you, did he not? 13 A That's right. 14 Q And h appeared at the Hay 22 meeting then, Dr. Paget IS did? 16 A That1s right, 17 Q And your notes with regard to that meeting, of course > 18 reflect his appearance, do they not? 19 A Yes. I think they do. 20 Q And after that* meeting you then received. Plaintiffs' 21 Exhibit 1311, which is a memorandum from Dr. Paget and contains 22 the information that you incorporated verbatim into the final 23 draft of the notes of the May 11 and Hay 22 meetings when you 24 wrote them up .as one minute, is that correct? 1; l/ V'lf 1 . 2 , . ; r A That18 correct:. rt; fv. - - / ; i* : v. >:,u .> . 1 Q Now* why;-did* you (receive:, that .memo from Dr * Paget? - ' - ; V,-; \ 1 v;/-/. "V.-C `f*'*;,, ' ,' "1 r.* ' ' - 3 1 `A - Because; X had asked him to sunanarize for. our minutes^ L" ri(|j : ; *1, j y . ; >. -.* - .r . what he had ;told '.the.;group about';the ,about his evaluation of S'* 6*7 ''this NCI study.-.-;. ' ,, .... ' ,, , /v'* ,* i - a . 1. ! 'yy-',, ; ;> . - .` - Q - ^ So what you asked for was no.roore than what ha said - *' . ,Vj?, ''j `rl, *, .1-* '< -*>* '* ' ,, - r /1 .*; * , . 1v *at the meeting? ` ..y ,. .^ 8 A' ; ThatTs correct . v.V ' * *J ' 9 .... Q And he did that in" a technical fashion? 1l * ' ,,' . (' L V, >" ' - ,r 10 A ,'Tec. - \.r :/ v - : ;/ / v * - ir'* ;> J2 . 13 _, Q ' And you then incorporated into the notes? :;\ '* A 1- ''Yes; .'*, : / Q Now,, do you Have Plaintiffs*. Exhibit 1306, 'sir? She's 14 'found it for me. Thank, you. ; - ; ' 1. P E N G iD CO.. BAYONNE. 'N.J. 07002 FORM IU 14 B 15 I? il hand you Plaintiffs1 1306.,: You recall this is the .16. document Mr. Carr had y o u / d r let me rephraeo that.. This is , ,17 the listing" from.'a publication of 8(e) notifications that had f.f ^ ' r* ` ! ' 41 ` j% r j ^ ^ " >-! '4 j * . _ ' i J M 1" ii been made to the EPA, at least per .this author1s listings ,is : 1 9 . . that right? - / /; ^ ^'r *( 20 (l'A Tliie .is not.an official EPA publication^ but It Is a 21 a/ a commercial organization that does publish environmental 22 ' information and. so forth1. ; 1 r- * ':J / ; 23 Q , I understand. But in any event they purport o list, 24 8 (e)`notifications by companies, if I understand correctly, - , t4J <- ' \ .X 1 between April 11, 1977, which, is the first listing date on this 2 one, and October 29, 1979? 3 A let's see. October-- 4 Q Look at the first peg, sir. 5 A . -Tea, that's correct,; .; 6 Q - All right. That's some two-and-a-half years? 7A right.-;. , 8 Q And do you understand whether or not-- Let me ask . ,:' v, i. ; i'-i.i 9 you whether or not you have an understanding if this listing 10 covers any chemical company in the United States that would 11 have made a report or just in a particular state or what? 12 A I would assume that this list would include all 8(e) -, 13 submission during that period of time, 14 Q From any chemical company in the United States? 15 A Yes. ' 16 Q Subject to the law? , 17 A -Yee. 18 Q /And do you have any idea how many that would be, sir? 19 A -I would guess many thousands, 20 . Q All right. How, how many total reportings were there 21 as listed in this publication? 22 .As listed in here, it looks like 315. 23 Q Three hundred and fifteen. Now, Hr. Carr pointed 24 out to you that;the majority of these are reports dealing with -; ' 'J, r ' ' ''-' ,'' _<, *' ' .J. - r '-v k- _ '. J . . . r ' ,1, 1.V . , *, \ r 4. r ;. 'l` :' - J -/ i" `'i/ - / , . ' . 1. 'v ' ' / '' . * Lk Jr ' /- ` ./< J'' . ; ' ' \ .: .. ' r*. *J '/-> '* r f! ' ' ' 1L- - V -. ,'", r `v'.-: ; / . , V. ' v ' . /" :- /IV ;i.' h e a lth e f f e c ts o r e f f e c ts ;on; animalG in th e environment o r . j; > , 2' stu d ies of animals and e f f e e ts o n onimals, l s n rt rth at n o t r. ,, 1r'1 ' 1 -correct? - "-// /^v / / /, : - /. <<;/ / \ J" ;>T: A- '.-Well/ i can.Vt r e c a l l what;he s a id . I don*t r e a lly : ' \5'*. know what th ese re p o rts would in clu d e. / v - ; - b. 6- ; Q ; A ll r i g h t ; W ell, i n any.'event,, do y o u 'r e c a ll th a t r ' i ' vhe, p o in ted , out to. you'tw o re p o rts o f a company th a t re p o rte d ; >-v ; ,-8 . ' i- , 'd io x in -.content? in a product?.<;, vir:% '' ' s, j.' ` / .9 'i , , 10 ... . ** T :r A Jj i b e lie v e I M6; \ ;dne was V e l a i c o l ; I / r e c a l l .one. -, j=s'- ' `<" ' * **J -^ / <'' >>'J-'L`J f'Ll".* -,.'t_ ^ k.'L/'' 1 - ' ' * , 7/ * >' y *t -.>, !1 i. f In fa c t,.. Xrguess a t th e t o p of. th e -second p ag e /o f the* l i s t ; V-p 11 ,Q . Yes. : At/ the/tojp o f page 1324 th e re i s d company / , FJ'r *1 , * v- r -4y' '^\"f' l 1 * n^.1/I- < ^ ^ lH -.j,?J' ' ' 12 y 'v/ ' cva l l e d- - V e^i^-'*^hJvvV ^ \ B - - l'v^^ S ^jtv--i-C; vS1^4i6'*^ ;~ii ,+i ^ '&* r, /AyS.i &t. \ p-^ a t ir iwg h trr/- .^' V tt L'tp, " 1 ' rT' g* ,: ^^ -. L*-. 13 "; . 14/` r -r "J' / ?Yes, Vo l s i e o l y j ^ 'j \ - - _' \r- 't V , ' / '/: . -',k \ t ' ' J j 1*" , ; "Jh-j /' mi \\ ' v; V\ S ` / 'r -' / ' (/ Q A n d it rep o rted as an/8(e) pccurrencejoccurrence of ' - 2 1* ' r ' k! ^ L ^ 1 ' 1" 'V ^ , 1 ' j J t* *w is; / 'd io ^ in ;in i_.its,Jp ro d u c t,V is 7 th a t:rig h t^ '. _ / ;C r/` //' v r ..< / v'r u 1, lZtObc, ' i ' r-, *i6 ; 7 ` :A^; ' ;/ T h a tf s what -the;' r e p o r t '/ n a y s *yes ^ \ ' '*. '' ti OOr* - , .. . 17'- sv-';' Q And' he p o in te d 1yput brie o th e r one to you, ! b e lie v e , A 1 c' f 18;- . ,o f & p r o d u c t ' s e a r i f I . ,can fin d i t ; ^ Y e s *number; .S5 \out o f th e BAYONNE, Lu2OZ IJ . 3 1 5 .* n. - . 1 T j -^^1 V 19: i ;/.r ; v / V V , ' : S ; /- L;U6 . 1 - ,,Q > ah<O,i J. -'f rp ' 20 2i; j1 I - , 22 r -'**. ; ' t/ .a t . ;^ h - h u h . ''/ / / v 'v r f i ; <*' \ Q,, \l 6 yo <-1 j -> u 1haj ve * t h a*t ? .k / >t ,. / ' .* -* J , r\J :^ .'J.1: ' / *- . ' L. , - L - J.' ^ ' --V ^ i * ' l J tJ J. ' ^ ,' ' A * *. ' i; do; . , ; Now/; t h a t . doesh* t**- *1. don11 know, w hether / -J - " i \ <23 ^ - / t h a t in d ic a te s '/d io x in rin ;a . product b r - n o t. I t ju s t.m e r e ly aayc r V l24-. i t was. a - re p o rt ,fo r an aly ses o f - dioKin, which could have: been ' . - ->/ , ` ' j ; '"' , ' * 1 , - v j:,-",. ^ .J ' . - ' `( f i.*' >n. -i ' ,, .. ^ 1 ' '" * ' . i* ' .. -L ' T. ' ... , ' i . , tJ . 1J Jj1 * '/ . V /( >,' v 1 a mere methodology. \ / r / - * / - ; ;: /1 2, 3' Q ' It doesn't say whether it's:in the product or not, " . J , i i j*11 ^ i' r , -r ^ \, < ' * " *. '* J 1 , , ^ m - ' , right? ` L/ > 4 A .No,'-it does,nofc.\. / *" f " ; t 5 Q , S o :of the ones that Mr. .Carr pointed out to you, sir* 6 I take that back. There was, pother, one. I believe it was 7 Dot/, waan*1 it? If you'would, look at number 209, Do you have 8 ` that- one? > , ," -`/y >;,'L;. ^ k ^ , 0 j1' 9 _: .r,;" ''-A_ v..^ I-'do, yes.'; V- ./v ']'/ j- 10 . Q And that's D o w :Chemical reporting an. analysis for "' ^ ..f,- 'a,*v :.~5 !,U" '\ -r1`, ;V* > " , ` ,,' ,. , 11 . .TCDDfs and':other chiofinated :dloxliis i<'chlorinated phenols, V*. *`r . 12 ppb's and pcb's in fish samples and river mud? " , / 13 ; ,J - A ; v' v* hS v r v* tYes.i- ,ilv :< `r;V'\%V'-rV* i"-' - . .*VV ' . V/U'f V' 14 Q Now, do you understand fish samples and river mud toL f ;- - ^ v : - V '"*V''i -,m . ,'/" ; : ' ; v ;J v ' i^v ^ /- :-J K - - r 1'"-- ' 15, be' a product of Dow? r " ' : v ': V ; 1* * A-- v'Nol 17 ' Q ,And the one Velcicol was. a report of analysis of ' ,L -vV; 18 - dioxin,\and Vit,didh11 rsay" what' it,'was.in, did i t % 19 ' A~` 'It says analysis *for dioxins. 20 Q .So ,the only report of analysis, in a product of dioxin [< c 1- y r' - W ^ '* J f. . -1 21 isthe one1Velsicol's reported, .is that correct? : ' 22 'A Dioxin-in 'product?^ ./* 23 v Q Yes.. * 24 A Yes,'' ^' 1 Q Out of the 315? 2 A Yes. 3 Q - Yes., Now, w e 've spent many hours In these last few 4 days, both Mr. Carr and myself, discussing with you the 5 interpretation of Section 8(e) of the Toxic Substance, Act, have 6 we not? 7 A Yes. * 8 Q And would it be a fair statement to say that differs 9 people may interpret it*in different ways? 10 A Yes, it would. M Q Now,-.this Velslcol, is that the correct pronunciation 12 A X believe Velaicol. 13 Q Veleicol. They may interpret it one way and you may 14 Interpret it one way and I may interpret it another way, isn't i J ' /. il* ,V - v *./ . 15 that right?;'", /, . ; > j1 J<* - 1h : 16 MR. CARE: Suggestive and leading. Ask that the Jury "* 1 t. *. 41ta *_ / ^ ' 17 be instructed to disregard.'it. ,'l * 18 THE COURTi Objection sustained. \ f ; ^ V ; i 19 MR. MUSGEAVEr "i'll Rephrase it. 20 Q (Mr. Musgrave) po you know whether Velslcol inter 21 prets the .statute the same way you do, sir? 22 A It would be my impression that when the-23 Q Well, just answer, do you know whether they do or 24 they do not? 1 A t think their interpretation has changed so that now 2 it is pretty close to,the way T interpret it. 3 Q But do you know when they were making their reports 4 that are reported her in Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1306 whether they 5 interpret it the same way you did? ,`6 A They interpret it differently from just about every* 7 body else. 8 Q And why do you say that* sir? 9 A Because out of this list of what, over 300 reports? 10 Q r Three hundred and fifteen* I think we've established 11 A All right. Over a two-and-a~haIf year period I 12 think around half of those eatae .from this single company* 13 Velsicol. 14 Q Well* I would like for you to count them, unless Hr. 15 Carr would take my word,, and out of the 315, 148 were reported 16 or were reports by Velslcol Chemical Corporation. Would you 17 care to count them, Mr..Carr? 18 MR..CARR: Oh; [1 .would be glad to accept your word, 19 Counsel. I think that's wonderful. 20 ` MR; M&SGRAVEsw, Yes,'it! is:' I'm sure the EPA enjoyed1 21 it. * ; <> ',,/1 ; , . ., 22 Q (Mr. Musgraye) `!One' hundred and forty-eight out of 23 315 were reported by Velsicol, were they not? 24 A Yes. . ,f f* 1c` 1 ' 2' 3 ; ; : ' .r'i 'V-.' ^.-S./:v V - v '/ -* :- Q Now,`let's lookrat rsome iof .the:things they ;*reported* , i'" . ' s *-s- / and wo1vq been t-hro-ugh 8j.'*( e )'ra..a"uve,t*he *jury- b1e*l,iejves .L\ - - 1 '' ^ "* - " d nauseam, andwould;you look, sir,' at item seventeen? ^t * i' ,r_ 4 .. s" , / Q Reported by Veisidol* Wht was their report there ' 6 of a, is the language information -which reasonably suggests ,, 1-7 i- :or frota which ;one could reasonably conclude that, there -is 8'- ..substantial, risk of injury,to health or the environment? ' ,L .r - :,L' Wv''./ *. r< " ' 'J>- -; That's, the,; that's the operative language of the statute,; isn't tr . 1T0_ 1' it? . /j .' rr*\ ' ... * ', i ^ *, ( -l *1-jj '* ^ *- t , ' \}} \ i ^ A.' Yes,'it i s ` .L -J * 12 Q .And given' that, operative language, what.'did Veisicol -- 13 14" report as a reportable under 8(e) in this, instance? A a .Their report-Jsays, ''Possible allergic reaction, BAVONNE. N.J. 07001 FOR* IL 2 4 B K5 ; singlecase.". _n4 ,, - ' / - r "V. :- *' 1r- . , v 1- }fOlck ' 3o V l o\ 16 17. \ Q ; 1'Possible -allergic reaction, single case/' All right sir* -And let' s look "at "some ,ox -the other ones that they t . V 18 v .reported here* Number 31..what's that 'one that they reported u2,' ' *_ 4 r I .r -<V# 19 as again -this. serious,effect of -a substantial risk of injury o ^ T, < : 2 0 . . OXu ' 'r. ' 21 to health. O r , the envirohment? r \ 'h A. 'Skin-'rash itu-an]employee ; Vr : ' ... . / j V %' 22 J .* / , 'T:*':' * Q , And what*i.'numher:- 3 6 ^ vt Vt j *';' 23 24 ' ,.. A VHUCU8: membrane/ irritation1in employee *'' ... . ;...vTi;: i-"Vvi*/*1>;;,, ''-r'^*' .t!frt I---* ^ ^ Q 1 And number 37?3 / i . ' - ; - , - - " .jr i,i .i' .-i..1-f'. J l, . . `,f .n rv--1*^ i|'l*J'?r-*'.i r*i t.]i*'^' l , * v. ,- i .J J : 1. - V ,. , /**, -J~>: i-c*1r`/ >'1sj s--r* ;.*v; ?* ->*> * 1 V "j. , "165 .V 1 A Waste water analysis, or: excuse me, - "Water sample r2' analysis '- r' :/ ;io// ;r'.`s.'/ \ \ ' /'>\ ' ' - '*' V ;' \ N -* v ; '- \.r, * t t t- .* rf* ' ; 1 j( * 3/* Q And that's; all: that is at least indicated.'In here' . 4 , as them reporting some type.of a water .sample analysis? . 5 : A That's correct. ,That's right". 6 q ;Andtwhat do they report In 39? r. '. > r// J V ' 7/ - A / f,?kin .imitation-employees ."V - v;r . 8. Q And in-number-40?v' ^ ' 9 _ A ./"Skin/rash." - J J ` . - J .y/` 10 Q And-in humber \43? y , ;- ^r a r 7t * , 'i 1 ; 1 /A. .'/Damaged andleaking. containers in transport." \ 12'. y/' Q' ' 'And'`number 52?/ '/y '/ ' -Ji 13 A" -"Employee symptoms'-odor .and'fumes." ,- y L; 14 Q y And-in number 75-?' ", , .^; '... \ y' A S ' / .' , A , "Injury reported,/chemical bums to one employee." 16 ` 1 'Q-t'(i;.r^And in *76? ->{/-Vl ^'-V :/; 1 ^ h ,, j H ^_ , t r >^ 1j /, ' 1h ' .17 A .. "Injury, reports inhalation, one employee." - y PEN G A D C O .. O A Y O N N E. N .J. 18 (jf ' And in 77? .' /:-' / .?/ y y . :` 19 20 r 21/ A - "Possible adverse effects bn employeesv Nausea and 'r f.'l'C*' "Z- ! .''i offensive'odor;v /_ ` ' 1,'v . ' 1i s ' .1 '' ' L -,.w-' *'.' J ; ' ,, ' / ^. . . - , - 1 ' ji . Q. '. And then/79,- 80 and 81 again, are injury reports? 22 ' \ Injury reports apparently.to individual employees. ', v .'/V ' v: / . 2 3 . ./ Q , One says, "Slight inhalation?" ^ 24 p v`.A ;'WKhuir; ''yV* . ' " #l - - . ? *. . t j* .<, .f ^j- f . .:'''' ` i*1 / - * -.r' '. ,j - ,1 '-t' * 'y ' , , I[ % ''''/' ' . , " *r . '> , Jr - . 1 ; ,J i*1 * v " > . , 1 1 Q the other .aaye, f'Eye irritation?11 Right? v . ' v *1 > " * *v ' " , 2 A Right * * ,' 3 Q An'd the other says', f,-Rash> lower lags?", 4 A That?s correct., . 5 Q And number 88 by.Volsicol, what's it say? 6 A "Irritation of one employee.11 . 7 Q .These are th types of things that for two-and-a-h&li 8 years Velsieol was reporting as they interpreted 8(e), is that 9 right? ` ' 10 A That1, apparently so. ^ 11 Q Including their report of dioxin analysis in a produc 12 A . That's correct. 13 14 (At this time Defendant1s ,Exhibit No. 889 was marked IS for identification by the court reporter.) 16 17 Q (Hr. Kusgrave) 'Mr. Park, let me hand you what I've 18 now had the-reporter mark as Defendant's Exhibit 889 and ask 19 you, can.you identify that as the first two pages of TSCA? 20 A Yes. - 21 Q Mtv-Carr has previously identified a portion of the 22 act, but I've had copied here Section 3 definitions under the1 23 act, have I not? 24 A That's correct* ' . \ '- ^ * rf;i \> 1 Q Let me Just aek you, air, does TSCA apply to all 2 chemicals in all instances? 3 A 'No, it does not, 4 Q When does TSCA not apply given that portion of the 5 act that I've shown you?;; 6 A Well, the act is structured so that it applies to 7 chemical substances. And generally those ar in commerce, 8 Cut at the beginning of the act where it defines the term 9 chemical substance, it states that the term does not include, 10 and then a number of things are listed. 11 Q And are some of those things that are included j 12 chemicals that are covered by other federal acts? 13 A That's correct. For sample, not included in the 14 term hazardous substance, excuse me, chemical substance and 15 therefore not covered by the act would be any pesticide as 16 defined In the Federal Insecticide, Fungicide and Rodenticide 17 Act. 18 Q Is that normally called FIFRA? 19 A That's correct. 20 Q And what else, sir? 21 A Tobacco or any tobacco product. Any food, food 22 additive, drug, cosmetic or device. The manufactured or 23 process or distributed as a food, food additive, drug, cosmetic 24 0 In any event, they are listed there, the other acts, that if the chismical covered by that particular act it* a not covered- by TSCA-' is fchat'.'correct?/ 'V ` ,, . '' "i.;'. A That's 1correct;' \ , i ;. *- ' < . Q -NoWi with regard to -this FIFRA that you just mentions do you know whether any o f ;these, chlorinated phenols that Monsanto' ia)manufacturing'-were covered by FIFRA7 , t h i n k .you , ; - "YVf> i--/ "o'- U T .* told ua youvare not familiar with FIFRA? r:/"' V ' ^ ,^'k ,v^ ^ /--V, A' *'Thatfright.;. RIFFA.is the one statute-,that is ", ' .. ' * :f'; . -X1 | ' -J- ' ( > i i., ' , j . rV .-i* . '* . . t within the EPA'is responsibility that, is not within mine'at v\v' Monsanto- .However I >do ^bellve >that Santoption is. a, a , ", kregistered pesticide,>and,' therefore, would not be, subject to C .the Toxic" Substance Control Act. ; ' , L > Q. ', . rv All-right. > ' L _ V K w. * - r' " /, 'v- ., kT - l' '. ^ -, ,, v, ; `, - ' s - ` . ", , , t ,MR. HUSGRAVE : .1 believe that's all the questions I .' 1 ..have Your,Honorv ^- ' ' -i j , \ ' ,. , ( / > 1; ; THE, COURT:;`Mr. .Carr', do you have any questions?- . I&L CARR: Mone;,.'Tour Honor. ; *. r ,j k , THE COURT r Okay. Gentlemon,could I 'see you at the bench for a moment, please? ' '\ ./* .. - (The following proceedings were had at "the bench ; outside the Shearing of the juryV)' ;; -V;. V , * ;- THE ^COURT : We've agreed we are going to adjourn for tomorrow, is that, right? ; ' " r ; ,HR. CARRi X ,thought it was rhy understanding that w . i S- r 169 *j/ would adjourn now.until TuGsday morning. ^: '2 HRi MUSGRAVE : ^;You M l need / we *11 be.breaking at 3 ten tii anyway. . ; '"Jj : r 4 'MR, /CARRr Yes; There's not enough time. tr " ", J * ' .1 . j. J\ '* i -S t ` J *' \ n*. 5r :/THE COURT; . And we'll- start with' some-'-,- I have .some 6 matters that I'm going over and as. soon as I'm done with those 7 ' I 'll let you gentlemen know at yourafficoo and my understand 8 ' ing also is that subject to whatever comes up this person is 9 subject to. recall? \ /: jo- / / -- ;.MR. CARR;. Right./: / / ' /' * /_ V ; / . 11 / ,, THE GOURTj; `tod w e 'll .adjourn until then, Okay. ' v * 12 . 13' * HV 'IS ' ' V 1 " r' >j - ; . f ^ j J, >r -4 ^ ^ `. *' ' , /The;,following^proceedings-'were had within the hear-* -'* -f ,--' "*'* 'N " % -1 J.>v-t, twr ` J't . -,`v * ' -* -.-.j ` .. ingfof the.juryt) - r 'r\ `f-* V- ;^ j V : \'r ` / 1... 1 * fr ii Ladlec and gentleTnanj we/re .going to end a little .early * --| J 1 . " ' ' ` ^ ^-Vl< , ' + ` '4 }_ _ 4 ^ " ^ 's * "^ , 1 * " 1*' u t . "* ^ for today and; also due. to some other circumstances we are not ' P EN GA D C O . . B A 7 0 N N E , N . J . .0 70 02 FORM 1L 2 4 B 16-. 17 until Tuesday ,morning at 9 130/ <;How/ I would remind you over " j - j j-v '' -c /' *"*. j-j* '_` ; 18'/. this long break, besides the regular admonishments# not to 19 discuss this matter among yourselves or with anyone outside 20 the panel; Remind you 'that you are not to read, listen to, or 21 watch' anything about this-case in particular or subject matter 22. id general in any .of the print or electronic media. Thank y r 'i 'I *' i( 2 3 for your- attention andcooperation. Thank you for your' ^i J24 patience for'any delays that we have had during this week. i 170 1 I know we 've had to take ;up .some matters In chambers, so there L . rf ' ' 'p '^ ' tf \ % *- .- V ( " 2 have been some delays. W e 've got an extended, weekend*- I hope 3' you enjoy it1,v W e 'll: se you Tuesday morning* /r :4 5, 6 I; .7 - 8' Court's adjourned. ;' ^ (End of day 4-18-5) ' v \ r"Ji , ft * if ie'iff / r ; L - ",, ' k . k/ ' i - 9 10 . 11 ' t * * f 12 13 form il h b PENGAo co ., e ir o N N E . n.j . ojooa I STATE OF ILLINOIS ) ) 2 COUNTY OF ST. CLAIR ) 3 4 5 I, KAREN D. HOPKINS, CSR, RPR, Official Court Reporter in 6 and for the Twentieth Judicial Circuit, do hereby certify that 7 the foregoing transcript of proceedings is a true and accurate 8 record of the proceedings had In the case of: Frances E. 9 Kemner, et al. v. Monsanto Company, case number 80-L-970 had 10 on the 18th day of April, 1985. These proceedings had before 11 the Honorable Richard P. Goldenhersh, Judge. 12 Dated this SfiQ day of May, 1985. 13 14 15 A J j . K :SR, RPR 16 0 3RTEP 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 IO 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 IS 19 20 21 22 23 24