Document Nea1eg1oa1675r99kjLxM2XMV

Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 1 1 B-126,986 2 RUSSELL ALLEN, ET AL * IN THE DISTRICT COURT OF * 3 VS. * JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS * 4 AMERICAN PETROFINA, ET AL * 60TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT 5 6 FRENCH HICKS, ET AL 7 VS. 8 BETHLEHEM STEELCORP., 9 ET AL A-134 614 * IN THE DISTRICT COURT OF * * JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS * * * 58TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT 10 B-141 242 11 ROOSEVELT SCOTT 12 * IN THE DISTRICT COURT OF * VS. 13 * JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS * AMERICAN OPTICAL CORP., * 14 ET AL * 60TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT 15 A-138,633 16 MARGARET FAULKNER, ET AL * IN THE DISTRICT COURT OF 17 * VS. 18 * JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS * AKRON CHEMICAL CO., ET AL * 58TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT 19 20 A-136,143 21 KEITH GIBLIN, ET AL IN THE DISTRICT COURT OF 22 VS. JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS 23 MOBIL OIL CORPORATION, ET AL 58TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT 24 VIDEO DEPOSITION OF VERALD K. ROWE 25 TAKEN ON OCTOBER 1, 1992, AND OCTOBER 2, 1992 2 1 E-141,216 Page 1 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 2 JOSEPH E. BARNARD, ET UX * IN THE DISTRICT COURT OF * 3 VS. * JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS * 4 ALLIED-SIGNAL, INC., ET AL * 172ND JUDICIAL DISTRICT 5 A-140,498 6 JOYCE A. BORNE, ET AL 7 * IN THE DISTRICT COURT OF * VS. 8 * JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS * ALLIED-SIGNAL, INC., ET AL * 58TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT 9 10 11 12 13 14 VIDEO DEPOSITION OF 15 16 VERALD K. ROWE 17 18 19 20 On October 1, 1992, and October 2, 1992, at 21 approximately 9:00 a.m., the videotaped deposition of 22 Verald K. Rowe, a Witness in the above-styled cause, 23 was taken at the instance of the Plaintiffs at the 24 Sheraton Greenway, 2510 W. Greenway, Phoenix, Arizona, 25 pursuant to Stipulation of Counsel contained herein. 3 1 Those counsel present, representing their 2 respective client or clients in the cause of action or 3 causes of action in which he/she has filed an answer, 4 were as follows: 5 JOSEPH C. BLANKS Page 2 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 6 Reaud, Morgan & Quinn 801 Laurel Street 7 Beaumont, Texas 77701 8 AND 9 HERSCHEL L. HOBSON Hobson & Ferguson 10 2190 Harrison Street Beaumont, Texas 77701 11 Counsel for Plaintiffs 12 STANLEY PIERCE 13 Rivkin, Radler & Kremer EAB Plaza 14 Uniondale, New York 11556-0111 15 Counsel for Witness VERALD K. ROWE 16 ARTHUR R. ALMQUIST 17 Mehaffy & Weber 500 Dallas Street, Suite 1200 18 Houston, Texas 77002 19 Counsel for Defendants B.F. GOODRICH COMPANY, 20 THE DOW CHEMICAL COMPANY, KEENE CORPORATION, OLIN CORPORATION, and 21 W. R. GRACE & COMPANY 22 SCOTT C. WALLACE Haley, Davis, Wren, Bristow & Rasner 23 United Bank Plaza, Suite 300 510 North Valley Mills Drive 24 Waco, Texas 76710 25 Counsel for Defendant C. P. HALL COMPANY 4 1 RYAN A. BEASON Funderburk & Funderburk 2 2777 Allen Parkway, Suite 1080 Houston, Texas 77019 3 Counsel for Defendants 4 WGM SAFETY CORPORATION, d/b/a WILLISON SAFETY PRODUCTS, AND 5 JOHN CRANE, INC. 6 LISA A. KETAI Hirsch, Glover, Robinson & Sheiness 7 917 Franklin at Main Houston, Texas 77002 8 Counsel for Defendants 9 SURVIVAIR, Page 3 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt KELCO SALES AND ENGINEERING, INC., 10 AND RUEMELIN 11 PAULA M. ROMBERG Vial, Hamilton, Koch & Knox 12 1717 Main Street, Suite 4400 Dallas, Texas 75201 13 Counsel for Defendants 14 A.M.F., INC., AND B & B ENGINEERING & SUPPLY 15 FRANK A. POFF 16 Gooding & Dodson 300 Texarkana National Bank Building 17 P. O. Box 1877 Texarkana, Texas 75504-1877 18 Counsel for Defendant 19 GREFCO, INC. 20 STEVEN L. RUSSELL Vinson & Elkins, L.L.P. 21 3700 Trammell Crow Center 2001 Ross Avenue 22 Dallas, Texas 75201-2916 23 Counsel for Defendant U.S. SILICA COMPANY, f/k/a 24 PENNSYLVANIA GLASS SAND CORPORATION 25 5 1 KENNETH T. KOONCE, JR. Strasburger & Price, L.L.P. 2 901 Main Street, Suite 4300 Dallas, Texas 75202 3 Counsel for Defendant 4 TRAVELERS INSURANCE COMPANY 5 JAMES R. SCRIVNER Smith, Shew & Scrivner, P.C. 6 120 East 14th St reet P.O. Box 1373 7 Ada, Oklahoma 74821-1373 8 Counsel for Defendant HARWICK CHEMICAL CORPORATION 9 DAVID E. GROVES 10 Benckenstein, Norvell, Bernsen & Nathan 2615 Calder Avenue, Suite 600 11 P.O. Box 551 Beaumont, Texas 77704 12 Counsel for Defendants Page 4 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 13 MOBIL OIL CORPORATION, FINA OIL & CHEMICAL COMPANY, HARWICK CHEMICAL 14 COMPANY, VISTA CHEMICAL COMPANY, ALLIED CHEMICAL CORPORATION, AMOCO OIL 15 CORPORATION, E. I. Du PONT DE NEMOURS & COMPANY, INC., MCKESSON CHEMICAL 16 CORPORATION, NECHES BUTANE, INC., OXY U.S.A., INC., PETRO-TEX CHEMICAL 17 CORPORATION, PHILLIPS 66 COMPANY, SHELL OIL COMPANY, SUN OIL COMPANY, TEXACO 18 REFINING & MARKETING, INC., UNION OIL COMPANY OF CALIFORNIA, AND PULMOSAN 19 SAFETY EQUIPMENT CORPORATION 20 EARLE A. HERBERT Alenik & Associates 21 Summit Plaza West 12 Greenway Plaza, Suite 1200 22 Houston, Texas 77046 23 Counsel for Defendants BIG THREE INDUSTRIES, INC. 24 BOWEN TOOLS, INC. 25 6 1 KIMBERLY BISHOP Martin & Herring 2 1302 McGowen Avenue Houston, Texas 77004 3 Counsel for Defendant 4 FLEXO PRODUCTS, INC. 5 DAVID P. COTELLESSE Ellison, Schweinle, Parish & Beerbower, P.C. 6 3800 First City Tower 1001 Fannin Street 7 Houston, Texas 77002 8 Counsel for Defendants AMERICAN PETROLEUM INSTITUTE, 9 CHEMICAL MANUFACTURERS ASSOCIATION, NATIONAL PETROLEUM REFINERS 10 ASSOCIATION, AND TEXAS CHEMICAL COUNCIL 11 JIM I. GRAVES Mehaffy & Weber 12 2615 Calder & Tenth, Eighth Floor P.O. Box 16 13 Beaumont, Texas 77704 14 Counsel for Defendant CLEMTEX, LTD. 15 C. VICTOR HALEY 16 Fairchild, Price, Russell, Thomas & Haley Page 5 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 413 Shelbyville Street 17 Center, Texas 75935-1336 18 Counsel for Defendants BINKS MANUFACTURING COMPANY, INC., AND 19 THORPE INSULATION SERVICE COMPANY 20 JEFF HARTSELL Edwards & Calvert 21 1800 West Loop South, Suite 1500 Houston, Texas 77027 22 Counsel for Defendant 23 DRAGO SUPPLY COMPANY 24 25 7 1 D. ALLAN JONES Orgain, Bell & Tucker 2 470 Orleans Street, Fourth Floor Beaumont, Texas 77701 3 Counsel for Defendants 4 ARCO CHEMICAL COMPANY, ATLANTIC RICHFIELD COMPANY, CHEVRON U.S.A., 5 INC., GULF STATES UTILITIES COMPANY, LUBRIZOL CORPORATION, MONSANTO COMPANY, 6 NECHES BUTANE, INC., OCCIDENTAL CHEMICAL CORPORATION, PURE OIL 7 CORPORATION, SUN OIL COMPANY, TEMPLE-EASTEX, INC., TEMPLE-INLAND, 8 INC., UNION OIL COMPANY OF CALIFORNIA, UNOCAL CORPORATION, AND USI CHEMICALS 9 COMPANY, INC., a/k/a QUANTUM CHEMICAL 10 CARL R. DAWSON Ryan & Winchester 11 770 South Post Oak Lane, Suite 101 Houston, Texas 77056 12 Counsel for Defendant 13 SCOTT AVIATION, INC. 14 L. J. (MIKE) DECKER, III Tekell, Book, Matthews & Limmer 15 3600 Two Houston Center 909 Fannin 16 Houston, Texas 77010 17 Counsel for Defendants THE TACKABERRY COMPANY AND 18 TRIPLE B CORPORATION 19 Page 6 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 20 21 22 23 24 25 8 1 RONALD T. HANCOCK Hays, McConn, Price & Pickering 2 400 Citicorp Center 1200 Smith Street 3 Houston, Texas 77002 4 Counsel for Defendants MINE SAFETY APPLIANCES COMPANY, AMOCO 5 CHEMICAL COMPANY, AMOCO CORPORATION, AMOCO OIL COMPANY, BASF CORPORATION, 6 CHEVRON CHEMICAL COMPANY, CHEVRON U.S.A., CITIES SERVICE OIL AND GAS 7 CORPORATION a/k/a OXY USA, CONOCO, CROWN CENTRAL PETROLEUM CORPORATION, 8 EASTMAN KODAK COMPANY, ETHYL CORPORATION, EXXON CORPORATION, GULF 9 OIL CORPORATION, HOECHST CELANESE CHEMICAL GROUP, HUMBLE OIL AND REFINING 10 CORPORATION, LUBRIZOL CORPORATION, MARATHON OIL COMPANY, PHILLIPS 66, 11 PHILLIPS CHEMICAL COMPANY, PHILLIPS PETROLEUM COMPANY, PURE OIL 12 CORPORATION, ROHM AND HAAS BAYPORT, ROHM AND HAAS TEXAS, INC., SHELL OIL 13 COMPANY, STAR ENTERPRISE, SUN OIL COMPANY, TEMPLE-INLAND FOREST PRODUCTS, 14 TENNECO OIL COMPANY, TEXACO CHEMICAL COMPANY, TEXACO CHEMICAL INTERNATIONAL 15 TRADER, TEXACO REFINING & MARKETING, TEXAS CITY REFINING, INC., UNION OIL 16 COMPANY OF CALIFORNIA, AND UNOCAL CORPORATION 17 SANDRA S. SULLIVAN, CSR, RPR 18 Charlotte Smith Reporting, Inc. 235 Orleans Street 19 Beaumont, Texas 77701 20 VIDEOTAPE OPERATOR/TECHNICIAN: 21 PAUL ROBICHAU 2190 Harrison Street 22 Beaumont, Texas 77701 23 Page 7 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 24 25 9 1 IN ATTENDANCE: 2 DUNCAN STUART The Dow Chemical Company 3 2030 Dow Center Midland, Michigan 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 LINDA M. FIEGENER Legal Department The Dow Chemical Company A.P. Beutel Building Freeport, Texas 77541 Page 8 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 10 1 I NDEX 2 DEPOSITION OF VERALD K. ROWE 3 October 1, 1992, and October 2, 1992 4 PAGE 5 OCTOBER 1, 1992 6 EXAMINATION BY MR. HOBSON 21 - 173 7 OCTOBER 2, 1992 8 EXAMINATION BY MR. HOBSON (Cont'd) EXAMINATION BY MR. BLANKS 9 EXH I B I TS 173 - 247 247 - 346 10 (Exhibit Volume I) 11 PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 12 ROWE 1 13 14 15 ROWE 2 16 17 ROWE 3 18 DESCRIPTION Document Entitled "Plaintiff's Notice of Intent to Take Video De position of Verald K. Rowe with Subpoena Duces Tecum" Document Entitled, "-Icities" of Toxicology," by B. A. Schwetz Document Bearing the Notation "Occupational Exposure Limits," PAGE 241 179 181 19 ROWE 4 20 21 22 ROWE 5 23 24 Document Entitled, "Pharmacokinetic Studies in Evaluation of the Toxicological and Environmental Hazard of Chemicals," by P. J. Gehring, P. G. Watanabe, and G. E. Blau Document Entitled, "Mission of Health and Environmental Research," by V. K. Rowe 182 183 25 1 ROWE 6 11 Hand-Written Document with the Notation "History - 1933" in Page 9 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 2 Upper Left-Hand Corner 3 ROWE 7 4 5 ROWE 8 6 7 8 141005 9 ROWE VK 10 400600 DOW 11 12 13 481100 DOW 14 (JIHT) 15 16 17 421200 DOW 18 (JIHT) 19 20 Document Entitled, "Environmental Health," and Bearing the Notation "(Rough Draft)" Document Entitled, "Environmental Health Guide, Role of Health and Environmental Research (H&ER) V. K. Rowe" Curriculum Vitae of Verald Keith Rowe Document Entitled, "The Response Attending Exposure of Laboratory Animals to Vapors of Methyl Bromide," by D. D. Irish, E. M. Adams, H. C. Spencer, and V. K. Rowe Document Entitled, "Toxicological Studies on Certain Commercial Silicones and Hydrolyzable Silane Intermediates," by V. K. Rowe, H. C. Spencer, and S. L. Bass Document Entitled, "The Response of Laboratory Animals to Monomeric Styrene," by H. C. Spencer, D. D. Irish, E. M. Adams, and V. K. Rowe 21 480621 DOW 22 23 Document Entitled, "Toxicological Studies on Certain Commercial Silicones," by V. K. Rowe, H. C. Spencer, and S. L. Bass 24 25 184 187 188 103 189 202 195 197 1 511100 DOW 2 3 4 5 520700 DOW 12 Document Entitled, "Vapor Toxicity of Trichloroethylene Determined by Experiments on Laboratory Animals," by E. M. Adams, H. C. Spencer, V. K. Rowe, D. D. McCollister, and D. D. Irish Document Entitled, "Vapor Page 10 207 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt Toxicity of Carbon Tetrachloride 6 Determined by Experiments on Laboratory Animals," by E. M. 7 Adams, H. C. Spencer, V. K. Rowe, D. D. McCollister, and 8 D. D. Irish 9 551000 FDCLJ 10 11 560425 CARB 12 13 14 Document Entitled "Procedures for the Appraisal of the Toxicity of Chemicals in Foods, Drugs and Cosmetics" Document Entitled "The Interpretation of Threshold Limits for Inhalation of Chemical Substances, excluding Mineral Dusts, with Recommendations for Improvement" 15 (Exhibit Volume II) 16 560425 DOW 17 18 19 Document Entitled, "Toxicological Information Toxicological Information Useful for Industrial Hygiene Purposes with Emphasis on Topical Contact," by V. K. Rowe 20 560800 DOW (AMA-AIH) 21 22 Document Entitled, "Toxicity of Paradichlorobenzene," by R. L. Hollingsworth, V. K. Rowe, F. Oyen, H. R. Hoyle, and H. C. Spencer 23 24 25 208 209 210 213 216 1 561000 DOW (AMA-AIH) 2 3 4 5 581000 DOW (AIHAJ) 6 7 8 Document Entitled, "Toxicological Studies of Certain Alkylated Benzenes and Benzene," by M. A. Wolfe, V. K. Rowe, D. D. McCollister, R. L. Hollingsworth, and F. Oyen Document Entitled, "Toxicity of 1,1,1-Trichloroethane as Determined on Laboratory Animals and Human Subjects," by T. D. D. Rowe R. Torkelson, F. Oyen, McCollister, and V. K. Page 11 13 218 217 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 9 590425 DOW Document Entitled, "The Toxicological Basis of 10 Threshold Limit Values: 2. Pathological and Biochemical 11 Criteria," by V. K. Rowe, M. A. Wolf, C. S. Weil, and 12 H. F. Smyth, Jr. 13 600000 DOW 14 15 601200 DOW 16 17 Document Entitled, "Symposium on Toxicology, Its Effect Upon Our Industrial and Domestic Lives" Document Entitled, "Evaluating the (I&EC) Industrial Hazards of New Chemicals," by K. J. Olson and V. K. Rowe 18 611000 DOW 19 20 21 670300 USSR 22 23 24 730409 DOW 25 Document Toxicity Chlorine Repeated Entitled, "The (AIHAJ) of Vinyl as Determined by Exposure of Laboratory Animals," by T. R. Torkelson, F. Oyen, and V. K. Rowe Document Entitled, "Industrial Toxicology and the Prevention of Occupational Poisoinings in the Chemical Industry," by A. A. Letavet and A. I. Korbakova Document Entitled "Toxicology for Dow Employees" 220 221 225 226 228 230 1 611000 DOW (RSCH) 2 3 790518 DOW 4 5 6 780814 DOW 7 8 9 740000 WHO 546 10 11 760600 DOW 12 14 Document Entitled, "Evaluating the Toxicity and Hazards of Chemicals," by K. J. Olson and V. K. Rowe Document Entitled, "Dedication Address, Northwestern University Cancer Center," by Philip Handler, President, National Academy of Sciences, 18 May 1979 Document Entitled, "'Clinical Toxicology' Viewed from an Industrial Setting," by P. J. Gehring Document Entitled "Assessment of the Carcinogenicity and Mutagenicity of Chemicals" Document Entitled, "A Historical Account of Dow's Environmental Stewardship," by Page 12 227 332 331 331 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt Eugene E. Kenaga 13 (Exhibit Volume III) 14 740919 DOW 15 Document Entitled, "Some Basic Concepts of Toxicology and Some Thoughts about the Development 16 and Use of Toxicological Information," by V. K. Rowe 17 751021 DOW 18 Document Entitled, "Concerns of Industry Related to Carcinogenic Hazards," by P. J. 19 Gehring and V. K. Rowe 20 760517 DOW 21 22 770000 DOW 23 24 Document Entitled, "39 Years of Dow Industrial Toxicology and Industrial Hygiene," by V. K. Rowe Document Entitled, "40 Years of Dow Industrial Toxicology and Industrial Hygiene," by V. K. Rowe 25 330 333 334 311 314 15 1 780000 NIH 1594 2 3 780421 DOW 4 5 780900 NIOSH 6 7 790423 C&EN 8 9 10 790900 DOW 11 12 791004 DOW 13 14 15 801013 DOW Document Entitled "Asbestos Exposure, What it Means, What to Do" Document Entitled, "Overview - Science, Society and Health Risk Control," by V. K. Rowe Document Entitled "NIOSH/OSHA Pocket Guide to Chemical Hazards" Document Entitled "Hands On! Lecture and Lab Sessions Reinforce the Latest Information with Practical Applications" Document Entitled, "Industrial Hygiene -- Truly an Interdisciplinary Science," by V. K. Rowe Document Entitled "Environmentally Induced Cancer...Separating Truth from Myth," by Dr. Harry Demopoulos Letter Dated October 13, Page 13 335 336 336 337 337 338 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 16 1980, on Dow Chemical U.S.A. Letterhead, Addressed to 17 Peter Infante, from John R. Venable, and Attachments 18 801100 ACSH 19 Document Entitled "Califano's Curious Cancer Estimates" 20 810000 FCT 21 820200 OH&S 22 23 840209 NIOSH 24 25 Publication Entitled "Twenty Years of Toxicology" Document Entitled, "Untangling the Asbestos Mess," by Deborah Schechter Document Entitled "Current Intelligence Bulletin 41, 1,3-Butadiene" 339 341 340 341 342 1 841017 DOW 2 3 4 841018 DOW 5 6 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 Document Entitled "Toxicology in Michigan Today Risk Assessment in Toxicology: Yesterday, Today and Tomorrow" Document Entitled "'Experimentation, Experience, and the Media,' A Symposium of Media, Science, Industry and Public Officials" Page 14 16 343 343 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 20 21 22 23 24 25 17 1 ST I PULAT I ON 2 3 IT IS STIPULATED AND AGREED BY COUNSEL FOR 4 THE PARTIES HERETO: 5 That the deposition of the Witness named 6 herein is taken pursuant to Notice; 7 That the Witness may sign the deposition 8 before any duly authorized and acting Notary Public 9 for the appropriate area in which signature is 10 obtained; 11 That this deposition, or any part thereof, 12 when so taken may be used upon the trial of this cause 13 with the same force and effect as if the Witness were 14 present in court and testifying in person; 15 That all objections, other than those that 16 relate to the form of the question and responsiveness 17 of the answer, are hereby preserved and may be made at 18 the time any testimony herein is sought to be offered 19 upon the trial of this cause, despite no objection 20 having been made at the time the testimony was taken; 21 That the deposition is to be videotaped by 22 Paul Robichau; Page 15 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 23 That Sandra S. Sullivan, a Certified 24 Shorthand Reporter in and for the State of Texas, may 25 act as a Certified Shorthand Reporter in and for the 18 1 State of Arizona for the purposes of swearing the 2 Witness in this deposition; 3 That the original transcript of the 4 deposition, pursuant to Rule 206 of the Texas Rules of 5 Civil Procedure, will be given to Joseph C. Blanks for 6 safekeeping and use at trial. In the event the 7 original deposition is unavailable at the time of 8 trial, an unsigned copy of the transcript may be 9 utilized in lieu thereof. 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 16 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 19 1 (REPORTER'S NOTE: WHEN ASKED BY 2 THE REPORTER TO STATE ANY STIPULATIONS 3 THEY MAY HAVE FOR PURPOSES OF TAKING 4 THE DEPOSITION, COUNSEL STATED AS 5 FOLLOWS:) 6 7 MR. HOBSON: Pursuant to the 8 Rules. 9 And would the witness like to 10 read and sign his deposition? 11 MR. PIERCE: Yes, he would. 12 Additionally, I'd like to make a 13 statement for the record at this time 14 that this witness is not and has never 15 been an officer, managing agent, or 16 director of The Dow Chemical Company 17 nor of any other defendant in this 18 matter; that the witness has not been 19 properly served with any subpoena but 20 is here voluntarily as a fact witness; 21 and, additionally, that the witness 22 does have a hearing problem. He would 23 appreciate it if the questioner would 24 speak up and also speak slowly and try 25 to enunciate carefully when asking your 20 1 questions. Also, please try to face Page 17 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 2 the witness when questioning him. And, 3 additionally, in particular, please, 4 everyone, try to avoid rustling papers 5 because this can interfere with his 6 hearing aids. 7 MR. BLANKS: If you'd kindly 8 identify yourself so we know who you 9 are, sir. 10 MR. PIERCE: I am Stanley Pierce 11 with the law firm Rivkin, Radler & 12 Kremer; and I am V. K. Rowe's attorney. 13 MR. BLANKS: Well, also for the 14 record, Mr. Rowe was not served with a 15 subpoena, although he certainly could 16 have been, at the request of Dow 17 Chemical Company's counsel who assured 18 us that he would appear through their 19 cooperation pursuant to the notice as 20 though he had been served and 21 presumably would also bring with him 22 such documents as were addressed in the 23 subpoena duces tecum that was part of 24 the notice. And our reason for not 25 serving this gentleman was to 21 1 accommodate him and Dow's attorneys. 2 MR. PIERCE: He is present. 3 MR. BLANKS: Very well. 4 And thank you, Mr. Rowe, for Page 18 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 5 joining us today. 6 7 VERALD K. ROWE, 8 having been duly sworn, testified as follows, to-wit: 9 EXAMINATION BY MR. HOBSON: 10 Q. Would you introduce yourself, please, sir. 11 A. My name is Verald Keith Rowe. 12 Q. And where do you reside, please, sir? 13 A. I reside in Sun City, Arizona. 14 Q. I understand it's "Dr. Rowe." I understand 15 that you have an honorary doctorate degree. 16 correct? Is that 17 A. That is correct. 18 Q. Dr. Rowe, I understand that you are a 19 retired employee of The Dow Chemical Company. I 20 right? 21 A. Would you please repeat 22 Q. Yes, sir. I understand that you are a 23 retired employee of The Dow Chemical Company. 24 A. That is correct. 25 Q. Would you tell us, sir, when you began 22 1 working for Dow. 2 A. I began working for Dow the 1st of November, 3 1937. 4 Q. And what was your first job with Dow, 5 please, sir? 6 A. I was classified as a biochemist. 7 Q. What were the duties of a biochemist, the 8 position that you had when you began in 1937 with Page 19 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 9 Dow? 10 A. I was one of the - 11 MR. PIERCE: I would like to 12 object to the form of the question. 13 Are you asking Dr. Rowe what his 14 specific duties are or all biochemists' 15 within Dow at that time? 16 Q. I would like to know what you did, 17 Dr. Rowe. Let me do the question again, please, sir. 18 Would you tell us, Dr. Rowe, what you did as 19 a biochemist when you first joined Dow in 1937. 20 A. I was working mostly with the animals in 21 experimental work that was in progress. 22 Q. In what way, sir? 23 A. Handl ing, treating. 24 Q. Did you do anything other than handle and 25 treat the animals as a biochemist when you first began 23 1 working in 1937? 2 A. Recorded observations and then pertinent 3 information relative to the work that was to be done. 4 Q. Tell us what you mean by "treated" in regard 5 to these animals. 6 A. Administering various materials to the 7 animals. 8 Q. What group or organization within Dow 9 Chemical Company were you working within in 1937 when 10 you began? 11 A. The biochemical research laboratory. Page 20 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 12 Q. Was the biochemical research laboratory 13 already established when you began working in 1937? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Do you have any understanding as to when the 16 biochemical research laboratory at Dow would have been 17 begun - would have started? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. When is that, sir? 20 A. The first person involved in that was hired 21 in the fall of 1933. 22 Q. Based on your work and your review of 23 records at Dow, do you have some understanding of the 24 history of the biochemical research laboratory from 25 1933 until 1937 when you began? 24 1 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form 2 of the question. 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Would you tell me your understanding of who 5 it was that began the biochemical research laboratory 6 at Dow, if you know, and who it was that was involved 7 in the management of that group, sir, from 1933 to 8 1937. 9 MR. PIERCE: Continue the 10 objection. 11 A. Dr. Don D. Irish was the director of the 12 laboratory. 13 Q. Would you know, sir, for how long Dr. Irish 14 was the director of the laboratory? 15 A. I do not know the date he retired from the Page 21 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 16 laboratory. 17 Q. Would you know approximately when he 18 retired? 19 A. It would have been in the neighborhood of 20 1970. 21 Q. Would you know if Dr. Irish is still living? 22 A. He is not. 23 Q. Was Dr. Irish in the same position as 24 director of the laboratory from 1933 until his 25 retirement? 25 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Do you have an understanding of what 3 Dr. Irish's training was, sir, his educational 4 background? 5 A. He was trained as a biochemist. 6 Q. Would you know where he was trained? 7 A. University of Cincinnati. 8 Q. Did Dr. Irish, to your knowledge, have any 9 assistants in 1937 who helped him in the management of 10 the biochemical research laboratory? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Who would those have been, please, sir? 13 A. Dr. Edwin E. Dunn and Dr. Edgar M. Adams 14 Q. What's your understanding of Dr. Dunn's 15 title in 1937, sir? 16 A. He was assistant director of the laboratory 17 and in charge of microbiological research. 18 Q. And Dr. Adams: would you tell me what you Page 22 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 19 understood his job to be in 1937, please. 20 A. He was in charge of toxicology section. 21 Q. Were there only those two sections in 1937 22 of the biological research laboratory, microbiology 23 and toxicology? 24 A. No. 25 Q. What others existed, please? 26 1 A. There were subsections under Dr. Dunn having 2 to do with preservation of wood and work with 3 development of agricultural chemicals. 4 Q. Any other subsections? 5 A. Not that I recall. 6 Q. Which one of these groups or which groups 7 did you work in, sir, in 1937? 8 A. In the toxicology group. 9 Q. To whom did you report when you began in 10 1937, please? 11 A. Dr. Adams. 12 Q. And then Dr. Adams would have reported to 13 Dr. Irish, is that correct, as you understood it? 14 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the 15 form. 16 Q. I'm sorry. I didn't get your answer, sir. 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Would you give me some of the details of the 19 kinds of things you were doing in 1937 at the 20 biochemical research laboratory. 21 A. We were studying the toxicology of many 22 materials of interest to the company. Page 23 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 23 Q. Would you give me some examples of those 24 materials, please. 25 MR. PIERCE: Th is continues 27 1 through - up through 1937? 2 MR. HOBSON: That's right. 3 A. At that time we were working with - with 4 the - with phenols, chlorophenols, methyl bromide. I 5 don't recall what else was going on at that time. 6 Those were major areas. 7 (By Mr. Hobson) 8 Q. What kinds of work activities did you, 9 yourself, have in this 1937-1938 time period shortly 10 after you joined Dow in any action involving phenols? 11 A. We would be administering various phenols to 12 animals. 13 Q. What kind of animals were you using in this 14 time period, please, sir? 15 A. Rats, guinea pigs, rabbits. 16 Q. And would you describe the kind of testing 17 that you were doing with the phenol on rats, guinea 18 pigs, and rabbits, please. 19 A. We were studying the effect of the materials 20 and the amounts that were required to produce whatever 21 effect it did, what that effect was, and by various 22 routes of administration. 23 Q. Would you give me your best recollection of 24 the various routes of administration that you were 25 testing in this 1937 and shortly thereafter time Page 24 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 28 1 period for these materials on these animals. 2 A. Would you please rephrase that or -- 3 Q. Yes, sir. I'd like to know just what it was 4 you were doing with phenol and the rats, the guinea 5 pigs, and the rabbits. How were you doing whatever it 6 was you were doing with this material and these 7 animals? 8 A. We would administer the material by stomach 9 tube - various dosages. We would apply it to the 10 skin, measure rate of absorptions. And with those 11 materials, eye irritation. We did not do any vapor 12 work with those. 13 Q. Did the biochemical research laboratory have 14 the capability of working with vapors and dosing 15 animals with vapors in the 1937 time period when you 16 began with Dow? 17 A. Yes. 18 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form 19 of the question. 20 Q. What vapors do you recall that you worked 21 with in the biochemical research laboratory within, 22 say, the first two years that you went to work for 23 Dow? 24 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form 25 of the question. Page 25 29 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 1 But answer it if it's answerable. 2 A. Methyl bromide. 3 Q. Would you describe what kind of work you did 4 evaluating the vapor of methyl bromide in this 1937 5 and shortly thereafter time period, please. 6 A. We exposed animals to various concentrations 7 for various periods of time. 8 Q. What kinds of time periods would you have 9 been looking at, please? 10 A. Anything from minutes to months. 11 Q. Were you familiar with any other 12 similar-type toxicity testing laboratories existing in 13 the Country in the 1937-1938 time period? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Where were some of the other laboratories in 16 that era, to your knowledge? 17 A. There was a laboratory at Mellon Institute. 18 There was work going on at the University of 19 Cincinnati, Saranac Laboratory, laboratories of the 20 U.S. Public Health Service, and Du Pont. 21 Q. Were you familiar with the Mellon 22 Institute's toxicological testing laboratory shortly 23 after you went to work for Dow? 24 A. No. 25 Q. When would you recollect that you learned 30 1 about Mellon Institute's laboratories, if you ever 2 did? 3 A. I couldn't tell you. 4 Q. Thirties? Forties? Fifties? Page 26 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 5 A. The Forties. 6 Q. In the Forties when you learned of Mellon 7 Institute' s activities, what did you learn? 8 A. I don't know. 9 Q. Where was it located? 10 A. In Pittsburgh. 11 Q. Was Mellon -- Did you have any understanding 12 of its affiliation or how it got its support? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. What did you understand, sir? 15 A. It was supported by... I will say Allied. 16 Q. Allied Chemical Company? 17 A. I believe it was Allied. 18 MR. PIERCE: Mr. Hobson, I know 19 we're reserving objections other than 20 to form until trial time; but I must 21 say I don't understand why you are 22 bothering Dr. Rowe with questions about 23 what his understanding is of the 24 affiliation of Mellon in the 1940's. 25 How this could be even vaguely relevant 31 1 or likely to lead to information that 2 you can utilize is just beyond me. And 3 I think perhaps if we got to the issues 4 in this matter, we'd all be happier. 5 MR. HOBSON: Well, I believe I'm 6 there. 7 A. I wish to correct that. Page 27 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 8 (By Mr. Hobson) 9 Q. Yes, sir? 10 A. I don't -- It was Carbide - Carbide - United 11 Carbide and Carbon at that time. 12 Q. United Carbon and Carbide? 13 A. I believe it was what we used to ca ll as 14 Carbide - Carbon and Carbide. 15 Q. And not Allied? 16 A. I'm not sure. 17 Q. Did you visit the Mellon Institute at any 18 time? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. What is approximately the earliest time you 21 can remember visiting the Mellon Institute? 22 A. I can't remember. 23 Q. Would it have been in the Forties, li ke^ 24 you think? 25 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the 32 1 form; asked and answered. 2 A. Probably more likely in the Fifties. 3 Q. What is your earliest understanding, as best 4 you can recollect now, of what kind of work Mellon 5 Institute was doing in the area of toxicology? 6 A. They were doing much the same sort of thing 7 we were. But the first things that, I believe, were 8 they chlorinated aliphatic hydrocarbons. 9 Q. Was there any particular person that you 10 knew of by name at the Mellon Institute once you 11 became familiar with its activities? Page 28 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 12 A. Henry F. Smyth, Dr. Smyth. 13 Q. Can you recall approximately when it was you 14 met Dr. Smyth? 15 A. Probably about 1940. 16 Q. Can you tell me how it was you came to meet 17 Dr. Smyth, please? 18 A. It was at a convention. 19 Q. Would you remember which one? 20 A. The A.I.H.A. 21 Q. And that's the American Industrial Hygiene 22 Association? 23 A. Correct. 24 Q. Do you have a memory in your mind of 25 actually meeting Dr. Smyth at that meeting? 33 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Tell me what you recall about the 3 circumstances that led up to meeting Dr. Smyth and 4 what you recall from that meeting, please. 5 A. I was introduced to him by Dr. Irish. 6 Q. Anything else you recall? 7 A. No. 8 Q. And was Dr. Smyth at that time already at 9 Mellon Institute, to your recollection? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Do you have any understanding of what 12 Dr. Smyth was doing, what his job involved at Mellon 13 Institute? 14 A. He was -- He was the agent in charge of the Page 29 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 15 sponsors' activity in Mellon Institute. He was also 16 associated with the University of Pittsburgh, I 17 believe; but he was a director of that operation. 18 Q. "That operation" being the Mellon Institute? 19 A. Mellon Institute's toxicology program 20 sponsored by Carbide. 21 Q. Was it your impression at the time that you 22 were introduced to Dr. Smyth by Dr. Irish that 23 Dr. Irish previously knew Dr. Smyth? 24 MR. PIERCE: Are you asking his 25 impression 52 years ago when they met? 34 1 MR. HOBSON: Sure. 2 A. Yes. 3 (By Mr. Hobson) 4 Q. Would you recall if Dr. Smyth ever came to 5 Dow's operations? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. What's the earliest recollection you have of 8 Dr. Smyth coming to any of Dow's operations? 9 A. I don't remember. 10 Q. I take it it would have been sometime after 11 you met Dr. Smyth. 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Would you have any understanding as to any 14 of the reasons or the purposes of Dr. Smyth's visits 15 to any of Dow's operations? 16 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form 17 of the question. 18 Are you asking this witness if he Page 30 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 19 knows what was in Dr. Smyth's mind? 20 MR. HOBSON: No. I think the 21 question was clear. I'm asking for his 22 understandings. 23 A. Would you please rephrase it or restate it. 24 (By Mr. Hobson) 25 Q. Yes, sir. Would you have any understanding 35 1 as to why Dr. Smyth would have been coming to visit 2 any of Dow's operations? 3 MR. PIERCE: Continue the 4 objection. 5 A. I don't know. 6 Q. Was Dr. Smyth at Dow's operations more than 7 once, as you recall? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Could you give me some idea of how many 10 times you recall Dr. Smyth might have visited Dow's 11 operations? 12 A. Several times. 13 Q. And can you give me a time period at all of 14 when these visits - these several visits - of 15 Dr. Smyth's would have occurred? 16 A. It would have been during the Forties and 17 Fifties. 18 Q. Can you tell me any of the people that 19 Dr. Smyth would have been meeting at - when he visited 20 Dow's facilities? 21 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form Page 31 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 22 of the question. 23 A. Well, he would have met with Dr. Irish, 24 Dr. Adams, with me; but I don't know that it was all 25 the time or every time. 36 1 Q. Do you recall what the reason or what kind 2 of business was being transacted when Dr. Smyth would 3 come and meet with you at Dow? 4 A. I can't say for sure, no. 5 Q. You just don't remember any at all at this 6 point in time? 7 A. (Shaking head negatively) The only thing 8 that I remember on that was there was some discussions 9 with respect to the chlorinated aliphatics and the 10 work that was going on in both places. 11 Q. Was it your understanding that there was 12 some coordination between Dow's work and Mellon's work 13 on this group of chemicals? 14 A. None whatsoever. 15 Q. You were merely exchanging information about 16 what each facility was doing? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Do you recall, Dr. Rowe, visiting the 19 University of Cincinnati's toxicology testing 20 facilities? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. What is your earliest recognition -- What is 23 your earliest memory of the time that you visited the 24 University of Cincinnati's toxicity testing 25 facilities? Page 32 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 37 1 A. It would have been in the late Forties or 2 early Fifties. 3 Q. Was there someone at the University of 4 Cincinnati's facilities that you dealt with there, 5 that you reca ll? 6 A. Yes 7 Q. Who was the person or persons at that 8 location? 9 A. Dr. Kehoe. 10 Q. How is it that you came to know Dr. Kehoe? 11 A. I was introduced to him by Dr. Irish. 12 Q. And would you recall the circumstances of 13 you meeting Dr. Kehoe? 14 A. I believe it was at his laboratory. 15 Q. There in Cincinnati? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And did Dr. Irish and you then travel to the 18 University of Cincinnati? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. What do you recall about the capabilities 21 for toxicity testing at the University of Cincinnati 22 in this early time period when you first met 23 Dr. Kehoe? 24 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form 25 of the question. It's vague and Page 33 38 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 1 overbroad. 2 But go ahead and answer. 3 A. We were concerned or interested in how they 4 were handling materials that - particularly vapors 5 which were flammable. And they had been doing some 6 work on something or other. I don't remember what. 7 Q. Was the University of Cincinnati doing work 8 under contract for Dow? 9 A. No. 10 Q. What is it that led to this visit? Why was 11 this interest on the part of you and Dr. Irish in 12 the - these flammable vapors? 13 A. We were interested in seeing how or what 14 kind of chambers and how they had constructed their 15 chambers to avoid having internal explosions. 16 Q. Was it that you were considering doing some 17 work at Dow and wanted to utilize any design 18 advantages that Dr. Kehoe's group might have had? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Did you have -- Do you now have any 21 understanding as to when the toxicity program 22 toxicity testing program - at the University of 23 Cincinnati began? 24 A. I do not. 25 Q. What was your impression of Dr. Kehoe as a 39 1 scientist when you met him and after you visited with 2 him over the years? 3 A. I had great respect for him. Page 34 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 4 Q. Was there anyone else at the University of 5 Cincinnati that you came to know over the years 6 besides Dr. Kehoe? 7 A. Dr. Deichmann. 8 Q. And could you spell that for me, please, 9 sir? 10 A. D-e-i-c-h-m-a-n-n. 11 Q. And would you tell me your understanding of 12 what Dr. Deichmann's position was at the University of 13 Cincinnati. 14 A. I do not know. 15 Q. Was Dr. Deichmann always at the University 16 of Cincinnati when you knew him? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Where did he go after or before he was at 19 the University of Cincinnati? 20 A. He was at Miami after that. Whether he was 21 somewhere else in between, I don't know. 22 Q. Would you recall Dr. Deichmann's first name? 23 A. William. 24 Q. Anyone else at the University of Cincinnati 25 you recall? 40 1 A. I don't recall. 2 Q. Did Dow utilize outside laboratories for 3 contract work in the area of toxicology at any of the 4 time you were an employee of Dow? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Going back as early in time as you can, 7 would you tell me who you recall being utilized by Dow Page 35 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 8 for contract toxicity testing. 9 A. We used Dr. Kligman, Dr. Clauder for work on 10 skin sensitization. 11 Q. And those are two different people, Kligman 12 and Clauder? 13 A. They were -- They were both, I believe, with 14 the University of Pennsylvania. 15 Q. And what time period would you be referring 16 to, Dr. Rowe? 17 A. It would have been in the Fifties. 18 Q. And what kind of work do you recall being 19 done at the University of Pennsylvania? 20 A. Pharmacological work. 21 Q. What kinds of materials? 22 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form 23 of the question. 24 A. I don't recall specifics. Lots of materials 25 that we were interested in and that where we 41 1 anticipated extensive skin contact as a result of 2 their use or handling. 3 Q. Did any of the work at the University of 4 Pennsylvania, to your knowledge, involve any human 5 experimentation? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Would you give me your understanding or 8 recollection of what that was, please. 9 A. Oh, it was skin irritation, skin fatiguing 10 experimentation. Page 36 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 11 Q. Were you, yourself, directly involved in 12 that work at the University of Pennsylvania as far as 13 overseeing it or helping design the projects? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. What was your role? 16 A. I acted as the Dow contact person. 17 MR. PIERCE: Are we going to get 18 into any relevant questions today, 19 anything to do with asbestos which is 20 my understanding of what this is 21 about? 22 MR. HOBSON: I think these are 23 relevant questions. 24 MR. PIERCE: I'll let it go a 25 while longer. 42 1 MR. HOBSON: I'm sorry. I forgot 2 where we were. Did we have a question 3 or an answer; or where were we, 4 Madam Reporter? 5 THE REPORTER: "QUESTION: What 6 was your role? 7 ANSWER: I acted as the Dow 8 contact person." 9 10 (By Mr. Hobson) 11 Q. When you say that, "the Dow contact person, 12 how do you mean that, Dr. Rowe? 13 A. I really don't know what you mean. 14 Q. What would have been your day-to-day Page 37 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 15 involvement with the people at the University of 16 Pennsylvania? What would you have been doing? 17 A. I did not have day-to-day contact with them. 18 Q. How often would the contact have been? 19 A. The beginning and end of a particular study. 20 Q. What would you have been doing in the 21 beginning of a study? 22 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the 23 form. Indications are that many 24 compounds are involved, many studies. 25 This question is really unanswerable, 43 1 unintelligible. 2 But do the best you can under 3 those circumstances, if you can. 4 A. We merely submitted materials to the 5 laboratory and asked for an evaluation of their 6 potential to cause skin fatiguing or skin irritation 7 or skin sensitization. 8 Q. Would you have been involved in designing 9 the protocol that was going to be used at the 10 University of Pennsylvania? 11 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the 12 form. 13 A. In some instances, perhaps. 14 Q. Would you, yourself, have done that, sir? 15 A. Yes, with the approval of medical 16 department. 17 Q. Whose medical department? Page 38 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 18 A. Our medical department. 19 Q. "Ours" being Dow? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And then you say you would have had 22 involvement at the end of the study. What involvement 23 would that have been, sir? 24 A. I would receive the report. 25 Q. Was there any other group at the University 44 1 of Pennsylvania that you recall Dow did contract 2 toxicity testing with? 3 A. No. 4 Q. What other contract laboratories, if any, 5 did Dow work with over the years while you were a Dow 6 employee? 7 A. We worked with the University of Rochester 8 toxicology program, University of California, 9 Industrial Biotest Laboratories, Hazleton 10 Laboratories, Food and Drug Research laboratory. 11 That's all I can recall. 12 Q. Would you have done any work with the 13 University of Rochester in the Forties and Fifties? 14 A. I don't remember the dates. 15 Q. What about the University of California, 16 would you have done any work with the University of 17 California in the Forties and Fifties? 18 A. I don't know. 19 Q. I'd like to come back to the University of 20 Cincinnati, if I could, for a moment, Dr. Rowe. 21 You told me that you knew Dr. Kehoe and Page 39 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 22 Dr. Deichmann. 23 Do you recall any other names of people at 24 the University of Cincinnati? 25 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the 45 1 form; asked and answered. 2 A. I don't recall. 3 Q. Would you recall a Dr. F. F. Heyroth? I 4 don't know if I'm saying it right. H-e-y-r-o-t-h. 5 A. Yes. I do. 6 Q. Was he at the University of Cincinnati? 7 A. I don't remember. 8 Q. How is it that you recall or what 9 recollection do you have of Dr. Heyroth or Hayroth? 10 A. I have very little recollection. I know the 11 name. I remember meeting him, but I have never had 12 any associations otherwise. 13 Q. What about Dr. A. W. Horton? Could be 14 ey Horton , I believe. 15 A. I don't -- I don't know him. 16 Q. E. J . Largent? L-a-r- g-e-n-t. 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. What do you recall of Dr. Largen t? 19 A. Noth ing specific. 20 Q. Would you recall that he was at the 21 University of Cincinnati? 22 A. I don't remember. 23 Q. How about Dr. J. J. either "Phar" or 24 "Phair," P-h-a-i-r? Page 40 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 25 A. I do not know him. 46 1 Q. Raymond Suskind? Dr. Suskind? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Was he at the University of Cincinnati, or 4 would you know? 5 A. Yes. He was. 6 Q. Did you know Dr. Suskind? 7 A. Casually. 8 Q. Can you recall how you met Dr. Suskind? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Do you have any recollection of what 11 activities Dr. Suskind carried on during his 12 professional career? 13 A. Dr. Suskind was involved in epidemiological 14 study of persons exposed at the nitro plant for 15 2,4,5-T and as - we were interested in that sort of 16 thing and had contact with Dr. Suskind. 17 Q. Can you give me the approximate time period 18 for that work, please, sir? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Not even a decade? 21 A. Late Fifties, early Sixties, somewhere along 22 that line. 23 Q. You said "the nitro plant"? 24 A. I believe that was the nitro division of 25 nitro Virginia plant for - at Monsanto. Page 41 47 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 1 Q. At the University of Rochester, do you 2 remember any of the individuals you dealt with there 3 when it came to toxicity testing? 4 A. Dr. Hodge. Another person whose name 5 escapes me. 6 Q. Would you recall Dr. Hodge's first name, 7 sir? 8 A. Harold. 9 MR. PIERCE: Is the purpose of 10 this deposition to go through every 11 name that Dr. Rowe knows in his long 12 and esteemed career in toxicology? 13 MR. HOBSON: Well, the purpose of 14 the deposition is to do discovery. I 15 don't think we'll get to every person 16 that he knows; but certainly the ones 17 that I'm interested in I hope we will. 18 MR. PIERCE: Well, you're 19 certainly trying to get to every person 20 he knows. 21 MR. HOBSON: I suspect Dr. Rowe 22 knows a lot more people than we'll have 23 time to get to in two days. 24 (By Mr. Hobson) 25 Q. Would you recall Dr. Kligman's first name at 48 1 the University of Pennsylvania, sir? 2 A. I heard people call him "Al." Whether it 3 was "Alfred" or what, I don't know. Page 42 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 4 Q. You said Dr. Clauder there, as well. 5 you recall how that's spelled, sir? Would 6 A. C-l-a-u-d-e-r. 7 Q. And would you recall his first name? 8 A. Joseph. 9 Q. Nelson? 10 A. Joseph. 11 Q. Joseph. I'm sorry. Would you recall what 12 kind of work was being done at the University of 13 Rochester for Dow Chemical Company? 14 A. I'm not sure. 15 Q. Can you give me an approximate time frame 16 for the work at the University of Rochester that Dow 17 had conducted there? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Would it have been prior to World War II? 20 A. No. 21 Q. You said that Dow did utilize the services 22 of the University of California for contract 23 toxicological work; is that right? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Was that the University of California at 49 1 San Francisco? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. I know you've published with Dr. Charles 4 Hines. Is that one of the people you worked with 5 there? 6 A. Yes. Page 43 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 7 Q. Who else at the University of California, 8 San Francisco, do you recall that was involved in that 9 work for Dow? 10 A. I don't know. 11 Q. 12 recall? Was there someone else and you just don't 13 A. I don't know. 14 Q. Did you personally know Dr. Hines? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. All right. I guess it's "Hine." 17 A. Hine. 18 Q. Do you recall how you met Dr. Hine? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. How is that, sir? 21 A. When Dr. H ine was setting up his toxicology 22 laboratory, he visited our laboratory to see what we 23 had and how we were operating. That's the first time 24 that I recollect meeting Dr. Hine. 25 Q. Could you give me an approximate time frame 50 1 for that visit from Dr. H ine? 2 A. Probably in the Fifties. Early Fifties, 3 perhaps. 4 Q. Do you recall the name "Dr. Mayo Soley," 5 Soley, S-o-l-e-y? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Is it accurate, sir, that the work that Dow 8 would have done with Dr. Hine at the University of 9 California at San Francisco would have been after 10 Dr. H ine came to visit your facilities? Page 44 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. For approximately what time period did you 13 work with Dr. Hine, sir? 14 A. I don't remember. 15 Q. Would it have been over the course of a 16 number of years? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Can you give us your impression of 19 Dr. H ine's ability as a toxicologist? 20 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form 21 of the question. 22 A. I always thought of him as a very competent 23 person. 24 Q. You and he coauthored a scientific treatise, 25 correct? 51 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Did you and he have any disputes about the 3 content of the scientific treatise that would call 4 into question his judgment as a toxicologist? 5 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form 6 of the question. 7 I don't understand. Are you 8 asking him whether there was a language 9 distinction between them as any authors 10 would on any paper? That question is 11 completely vague and unanswerable. 12 But give it your best. 13 A. I don't recall. Page 45 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 14 Q. You don't recall that there was any dispute? 15 A. (Shaking head negatively) 16 Q. Correct? 17 A. I don't recall any dispute. 18 Q. You told us earlier, I think, Dr. Rowe, that 19 you were aware of activities at Saranac Laboratory; is 20 that right? 21 22 23 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form. The witness never testified to any 24 such thing, Mr. Hobson. 25 MR. HOBSON: Well, then he can 52 1 tell me I'm wrong. 2 MR. PIERCE: I don' t want you 3 putting words into the mouth of the 4 witness. Please ask a question that's 5 appropriate. 6 A. Would you repeat the question, please. 7 (By Mr. Hobson) 8 Q. Yes, sir. I asked you earlier in the 9 deposition about were you aware that there were 10 toxicity testing activities going on around the 11 Country. And as I recall, it was about the time you 12 began at Dow. And I think one of the places you 13 mentioned to me was Saranac Labs. Is that correct? 14 A. (Nodding affirmatively) 15 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form 16 and objection to the characterization 17 completely improper of the witness' Page 46 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 18 prior testimony. 19 Q. Was that a "yes," Dr. Rowe? 20 A. I was aware of Saranac Laboratory, yes. 21 Q. Would you tell me, sir, what awareness you 22 had of Saranac Laboratory in this time period of the 23 late Thirties? 24 A. I don't know what the dates were; but I was 25 aware, as almost anyone in the field was aware, that 53 1 they were the outstanding laboratory for the 2 evaluation of particulates. 3 Q. And did you know Dr. Gardner, Dr. Leroy 4 Gardner? 5 A. I did not. 6 Q. Did you know any of the personnel at Saranac 7 Lake throughout your career? 8 A. I knew Vorwald that was - who was there 9 later. 10 Q. Do you recall how you met Dr. Vorwald? 11 A. No, I don't. 12 Q. Did you ever visit Saranac Laboratory? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Can you recall approximately when that was 15 16 A. No, I can't. 17 Q. I take it it was after the War, though? 18 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the 19 form. 20 Q. World War II? Page 47 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 21 A. I think so. 22 Q. Was it after Dr. Vorwald became the director 23 of that laboratory? 24 A. I can't recall. 25 Q. Would you give me your recollection of what 54 1 you recall seeing when you visited Saranac. 2 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form 3 of the question. 4 A. I observed their inhalation chambers. That 5 was our prime purpose, seeing what kind of chambers 6 they had to study particulates. 7 Q. Did Dow have the ability to do toxicity 8 testing involving exposures to particulates? 9 A. Not -- Not appreciably, no. 10 Q. Did Dow, while you were an employee, develop 11 that ability at any time? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Did you at Dow consider developing 14 inhalation toxicity testing ability for particulates? 15 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form 16 of the question. 17 A. I think we did. 18 Q. Can you remember about when that was going 19 on, sir? 20 A. Probably in the early Fifties. 21 Q. Why was this being considered, if you know, 22 sir, at Dow? 23 A. We were wondering whether we should try to 24 design it into a laboratory to do that. Page 48 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 25 Q. Was this a project that you were involved 55 1 with, yourself, Dr. Rowe? 2 A. I don't understand your question now. 3 Q. Did you, yourself, get involved in the 4 consideration as to whether or not Dow would develop 5 the ability to do toxicity testing for the inhalation 6 of particulates? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. What was your perception of why you would 9 want to consider it - consider having this ability? 10 A. Well, from time to time we had materials 11 that people were exposed to that were particulates. 12 Q. Can you recall, sir, what the reasoning was 13 that the decision was made not to incorporate 14 inhalation toxicity testing abilities for particulates 15 into Dow's activities? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. What was that, please? 18 A. The facilities are - to handle this properly 19 are quite complicated, somewhat beyond our own 20 capabilities, expensive. And inasmuch as there were 21 facilities that could handle anything that we might 22 want, we felt it was a nonjustifiable expense. 23 Q. Do you mean by that, sir, that there were 24 contract laboratories that had the capacity to do the 25 work that you could employ, -- Page 49 56 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 1 MR. PIERCE: Obj ection. 2 Q. -- was available? 3 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the 4 form. 5 A. We felt we could employ Saranac 6 laboratories, if we wished. 7 Q. Was it your impression at the time that 8 Saranac Laboratories had the capacity to do whatever 9 toxicity testing you at Dow would need for the 10 forseeable future? 11 MR. PIERCE: At what time are we 12 now talking about? 13 MR. HOBSON: In the early Fifties 14 when Dow was considering developing 15 inhalation toxicity capability for 16 particulates. 17 A. We felt that they were capable. 18 (By Mr. Hobson) 19 Q. Do you recall when you visited Saranac or 20 when you investigated the work at Saranac that there 21 was capacity to do toxicity testing that was not being 22 utilized? 23 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form 24 of the question, the characterization 25 of the witness' previous statement. 1 Go ahead. 2 A. I don't remember. Page 50 57 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 3 Q. Was this consideration by Dow about whether 4 to do - develop the ability to do inhalation of 5 particulates in-house or to use contractors something 6 that you did alone or did you work with someone else 7 in this consideration? 8 A. No. 9 Q. You worked -- You did it alone? 10 A. We had no contact with anyone else. 11 Q. No, sir. I mean within Dow. 12 committee, or did you act alone? Was i 13 A. Oh, no. Dr. Irish was very much involved. 14 I was -- I was just accompanying him. 15 Q. Would you recall if there was any 16 correspondence within the company about this 17 consideration of developing particulate inhalation 18 testing ability? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Just don't recall one way or the other? 21 A. I don't -- I don't know. 22 Q. Was it your usual practice when you visited 23 another facility to write some sort of a trip report 24 or memorandum to file or to report to your 25 supervisors? 58 1 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form 2 of the question. 3 A. I wouldn't -- No, not necessarily. 4 Q. Might or might not? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. You mentioned that when you first got to Dow Page 51 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 7 or shortly thereafter, you recognized that Du Pont had 8 toxicity testing capabilities; is that right? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Can you recall if you ever visited any of 11 Du Pont's laboratories? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. What would be your earliest recollection of 14 visiting a Du Pont laboratory facility? 15 A. I can't tell you. I don't know. 16 Q. Do you think it was before World War II? 17 A. I don't know. 18 Q. What facilities of Du Pont do you remember 19 visiting? 20 A. We visited Haskell Laboratory. 21 Q. You say "we." Do you recall that it was 22 someone other than yourself who also made these visits 23 to Du Pont? 24 A. Dr. Irish. 25 Q. Did you visit any facility for Du Pont other 59 1 than Haskell Laboratories, that you recall? 2 A. I don't -- No. 3 Q. Can you give me some idea of about how many 4 times you visited Haskell Laboratories while you were 5 a Dow employee? 6 A. One time. 7 Q. Once. Do you recall who any of the people 8 were at Haskell Laboratories that you would have met 9 with? Page 52 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Who would that be,please? 12 A. Dr. John Zapp. 13 Q. Anyone else? 14 A. Yes. Lester Clayton. Another whose name 15 escapes me. 16 Q. What -- Do you have a specific recollection 17 of visiting Haskell Laboratory this one occasion? 18 A. Would you restate that, please. 19 Q. Yes, sir. Do you have a picture in your 20 mind's eye of the visit to Haskell Laboratories that 21 you made? 22 A. Vaguely. 23 Q. What do you recall seeing at Haskell 24 Laboratories? What's your impression of what you 25 recall from that visit? 60 1 A. We were primarily interested in their method 2 of testing blood pressure on animals. 3 Q. Did you tour their facilities? 4 A. I don't recollect. I would presume that we 5 walked through. 6 Q. While you were a Dow employee, Dr. Rowe, do 7 you remember visiting any other corporate toxicity 8 testing laboratories? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Who else's would you recall having visited, 11 please? 12 A. Carbide's. 13 Q. And where would that have been located, sir? Page 53 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 14 A. The Bushey Run. 15 Q. And would you recall about when that would 16 have been? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Did you ever visit Chevron's toxicity 19 testing laboratory in the San Francisco area? 20 A. No. 21 Q. When you were working with Dr. Hine at the 22 University of California, San Francisco, were you 23 aware that he also did work for Shell Oil Company? 24 A. No. I didn't know what he -- I did not know 25 anything about his other work. 61 1 Q. Have you ever had any meetings with anyone 2 from Shell concerning toxicology? 3 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form 4 of the question. 5 You mean in all his conferences 6 over 52 years was there anybody there 7 that - in the audience from Shell? I 8 mean just -- Why don't you be more 9 specific in the question so that the 10 witness can really deal with it. 11 Q. Can you help me out there, Dr. Rowe? 12 A. I knew Norman White, Dr. White. 13 Q. How is it that you came to know Dr. White 14 from Shell? 15 A. We were in school together. 16 Q. And that was at Iowa? Page 54 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And were you also there with Dr. Berry, 19 Clyde Berry? 20 A. No. I don't believe Clyde was there then. 21 Q. You know Dr. Berry, though? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Have you had professional association with 24 Dr. Berry over the years? 25 A. Yes. I guess so. 62 1 Q. Is that more just from your professional 2 association work, or did you have contact with 3 Dr. Berry directly associated with your work at The 4 Dow Chemical Company? 5 A. I don't recollect that - any of that. 6 Q. Mostly just general professional-type work? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Did Dr. White ever have any work, to your 9 knowledge, that directly was for or under contract to 10 Dow Chemical Company? 11 A. I don't recall. 12 Q. Did you have any professional... 13 THE WITNESS: (Conferring 14 privately with Mr. Pierce) 15 MR. PIERCE: If you get tired - 16 MR. BLANKS: Ready to take a - 17 MR. HOBSON: And, Doctor, let me 18 say that if at any time you need to 19 take a break for any reason, you speak 20 up and I'll be kind enough to stop my Page 55 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 21 questioning. 22 THE WITNESS: Okay. Thank you. 23 MR. BLANKS: Don't wait for the 24 lawyers to ask for it. It's your call, 25 sir. 63 1 MR. HOBSON: That's right. 2 (AT THIS TIME A BRIEF RECESS WAS 3 TAKEN, AND THE PROCEEDINGS THEREAFTER 4 RESUMED AS FOLLOWS:) 5 (By Mr. Hobson) 6 Q. Now, Dr. Rowe, I think you said that you 7 began working in the Dow biochemical research 8 laboratory in 1937. Would you be kind enough to tell 9 me who else you recall other than the directors that 10 you've named was also working there at that time. 11 A. Dr. Howard Spencer. Fred Meyer 12 Q. I'm sorry. I didn't hear you. 13 A. Fred Meyer. All you' re conside 14 professional people? 15 Q. Yes, sir. The professionals. 16 A. Okay. I don't remember the others. 17 Q. You told us about Dr. Edwin Dunn, one of the 18 assistant directors. 19 still living? Would you know if Dr. Dunn is 20 A. No, he is not. 21 Q. Dr. Ad ams : is he still living? 22 A. He is not 23 Q. Is Dr. Sp encer l iving? Page 56 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Would you know Dr. Spencer's whereabouts? 64 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Where does he live, sir? 3 A. Sun City. 4 Q. Ah. A neighbor? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Do you see Dr. Spencer from time to time? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Is his health good? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Would you know, sir, one way or the other if 11 he has a serious illness? Is it life-threatening; 12 would you know? 13 A. Well, if cancer is threatening, it is. 14 Q. I'm sorry to hear that. Mr. Meyer: is he 15 still living? 16 A. I don't know. 17 Q. But those are the people that you recall, 18 the professionals who were there in 1937? 19 A. (No response) 20 Q. Would you tell me if you recall or whom you 21 recall the other professionals would have been that 22 would have joined the biochemical research laboratory 23 after 1937 and approximately when they would have 24 joined. 25 A. I can't answer that. I don't know. Page 57 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 65 1 Q. I take it that there were additions to the 2 staff over the years. 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. I'm not asking you to name every one, but 5 can you think back in time and sort of come forward 6 from 1937 and tell me the people - the professionals 7 that you remember that joined the biochemical research 8 laboratory? 9 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the 10 form. 11 A. Harold Hoyle joined us in the late Forties, 12 I believe. Larry Silverstein. I don't know when he 13 came. Arnold Schaffer. 14 What -- What time frame are you thinking 15 about? I'm trying to orient myself and -- because -16 Q. Prior - 17 A. What? 18 Q. -- to 1970. From about 1937 to 1970. 19 A. Prior to 1970? Paul Wolf, Mark Wolf, Don 20 McCollister. I can't think of any others at the 21 moment. 22 Q. Mr. Silverstein: would you recall what his 23 job was sir? 24 A. He was an industrial hygienist. 25 Q. And would you know if Mr. Silverstein is 1 still living? 2 A. Yes. Page 58 66 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 3 Q. And would you know where he lives, sir? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Mr. Sheffer or Schaffer. 6 What was his job, sir? Arnold Schaffer. 7 A. He was an industrial hygienist. 8 Q. And is Mr. Schaffer still living; would you 9 know? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Would you know where he lives now? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Paul Wolf: what was his job, please? 14 A. He was a microbiologist. 15 Q. And is Mr. Wolf, Paul Wolf, still living? 16 A. I think so. 17 Q. And there's another Mr. Wolf, Mr. Mark Wolf? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Were they related; would you know? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Brothers? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. What was Mr. Mark Wolf's job, please? 24 A. He was a toxicologist. 25 Q. And would you recall the decade that 67 1 Mr. Mark Wolf would have joined Dow? 2 A. It would be in the Fifties. 3 Q. And is Mr. Mark Wolf still living; - 4 A. No. 5 Q. -- would you know? He's deceased? Page 59 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And Mr. Don McCollister: what would his job 8 have been, please? 9 A. He was a toxicologist. 10 Q. And would you know; is he still living? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Would you knowwhere? 13 A. In Midland. 14 Q. Is he still with Dow? 15 A. I don't know. 16 Q. I think you've told us, if my notes are 17 correct, that when you joined the medical - the bio 18 sorry - the biochemical research laboratory in 1937 19 that there were essentially two groups - or is that 20 wrong? - microbiology and the toxicology. 21 A. No. I think I mentioned, also, there was a 22 section on wood preservation with preservatives. 23 Q. I understood that was a subsection but - 24 A. It was a - yes, subsection. And the 25 agricultural chemicals was also a subsection, most of 68 1 whom reported to Dr. Dunn. 2 Q. And Dr, Dunn was the microbiologist over -- 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. -- the microbiology section, correct? 5 A. He was a biochemist, but in charge of that, 6 yes. 7 Q. How long, sir, did the organization of the 8 biochemical research laboratory remain essentially 9 that way with these two groupings? Page 60 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 10 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form 11 of the question. 12 Q. I'm trying to find out the changes in the 13 organization of the biochemical research laboratory. 14 And I don't want to get caught up in sections and 15 subsections, but basically trying to find out how the 16 organization changed with time after 1937 while you 17 were there. 18 A. I can't tell you the dates at which that 19 name was dropped and - but there were - the main 20 section was toxicology, industrial hygiene. And that 21 would have occurred in about the early Seventies. 22 There was still a section -- Well, I don't know 23 whether the name was still "biochemical laboratory" 24 for the rest of it or not. That section split off. 25 Q. And when you say "the biochemical section," 69 1 how do you use that terminology, sir, "it split off"? 2 A. The whole operation was called the Dow 3 Chemical Research Laboratory. At some point in time 4 along there industrial toxicology and industrial 5 hygiene were separated, but I can't remember if there 6 was a formal name for the rest of it or not. 7 Q. This group that separated, what kinds of 8 activities did it do after it separated, as best you 9 understand? 10 A. It wasn't any different. 11 Q. What did it do before then? 12 A. I don't understand. Page 61 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 13 Q. I don't have an understanding yet of what 14 this section that split off - what its activities were 15 either before it split off or after. What kinds of 16 work - 17 A. Toxicology and industrial hygiene split off. 18 Q. Then I guess I don't understand what the 19 other group did. 20 A. The other group was con - consisted of 21 microbiology, pharmacology, organic synthesis. That's 22 it, as far as I can remember. 23 Q. How would -- How did you distinguish between 24 what was toxicology and what was pharmacology at The 25 Dow Chemical Company in your organization before the 70 1 toxicology and industrial hygiene was split off? 2 MR. PIERCE: Objection to form 3 of the question. 4 A. The pharmacology group was - under Maynard 5 Chenoweth, was pretty much an individual unit. They 6 were not a part of - of toxicology and industrial 7 hygiene. 8 Q. And what -- I'm sorry. 9 A. And their work was basically in 10 pharmacology. And that was joined later by a 11 pharmacology group that was part of the drug operation 12 in Indianapolis. 13 Q. And what I'm trying to also learn, Dr. Rowe, 14 is when you say "pharmacology" as opposed to 15 "toxicology," what's the difference in those two, if 16 there is one? Page 62 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 17 A. They're pretty closely related, but they 18 were primarily concerned with - with new drugs that 19 were being developed as opposed to occupational or 20 industrial chemicals. 21 Q. You stayed in the toxicology group all your 22 career with Dow; is that right? 23 A. That's right. 24 Q. So, after this group split off that was 25 toxicology and industrial hygiene, you were in that 71 1 group? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. After the split-off, to whom did you report? 4 A. I reported to Dr. Irish. 5 Q. So, he was still with Dow; this was before 6 he retired. 7 A. At that point. 8 Q. And at some point in time, I take it you no 9 longer reported to Dr. Adams. 10 A. There was -- There was a transitional period 11 there. Dr. Adams became head of the laboratory when 12 Dr. Irish left. And at that time for about a year I 13 reported to Dr. Adams. 14 Q. And then did Dr. Adams retire, as well? 15 A. Yes, 16 Q. And who took his place , sir? 17 A. Dr. Char les Hinman. 18 Q. Hinmin? Could you spe ll that, please? 19 A. H-i- n-m- a-n. Page 63 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 20 Q. And what was Dr. Hinman's background, as you 21 understood, sir? 22 A. He was basically an organic chemist with a 23 lot of biochemical background. 24 Q. And was Dr. Hinman your supervisor until you 25 retired? 72 1 A. No. 2 Q. Who succeeded Dr. Hinman in that role, then, 3 sir? 4 A. Dr. Blair. 5 Q. And Dr. Bl air's first name? 6 A. Etcyl. 7 Q. Was there another person to whom you 8 reported after Dr. Blair? 9 A. No. 10 Q. So, you reported to Dr. Adams for about how 11 many years, sir? 12 A. Abou t one year. 13 Q. And before that you reported to Dr. Irish? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. For about how many years, perhaps 30 years? 16 A. Twenty-five, I suspect. 17 Q. And then the number of years, approximately, 18 you reported to Dr. Hinman. 19 A. About three, I think. 20 Q. And then Dr. Blair, about how many years 21 22 A. About six. 23 Q. In this approximate 1937- '38 time period Page 64 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 24 when you first began working for Dow, would you recall 25 who Dr. Irish reported to, either by name or by title 73 1 or both? 2 A. He reported to Dr. Veazey. 3 Q. Could you spell that, please? 4 A. V-e-a-z-e-y. 5 Q. And would you recall Dr. Veazey's first 6 name? 7 A. No. 8 Q. What was your understanding of Dr. Veazey's 9 position in Dow? 10 A. He was director of research. 11 Q. Was there any particular area of research 12 that Dr. Veazey was a director of, or was this general 13 research for The Dow Chemical Company? 14 A. I'll correct that. I believe at that 15 particular time Dr. Willard Dow was still corporate 16 director of research, and Dr. Veazey was his 17 right-hand man in charge of daily operations. 18 Q. And was this general research overall at 19 Dow? 20 A. Yes. Yes. 21 Q. And would you recall -- Did Dr. Irish report 22 to someone after Dr. Veazey? 23 A. Going back one step further, now, when 24 Dr. Irish first was employed by Dow, he reported to 25 Dr. John Grebe. Page 65 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 74 1 Q. And who was Dr. Grebe? 2 A. He was director of the physical 3 laboratory, of which we were a part for about a year. 4 Q. And would you recall Dr. Grebe's first name? 5 A. John. 6 Q. John. Would you spe ll Dr. "Grebe" for us. 7 A. G-r-e-b-e. 8 Q. Now, later on did Dr . Irish's supervisor 9 change after Dr. Veazey? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Can you give me the people that Dr. Irish 12 would have reported to in some kind of sequence? 13 MR. PIERCE: I'm going to object 14 to the form of the question. 15 But go ahead, Doctor. 16 A. There were a number of people, and I can't 17 remember the sequence. One was Dr. Boundy. 18 Q. B-o-w-d-y? 19 A. B-o-u-n-d-y. 20 Q. Would you recall his first name? 21 A. Ray. 22 Q. And what was your understanding of 23 Dr. Boundy's position? 24 A. Pardon? 25 Q. What was your understanding of Dr. Boundy's 1 position when Dr. Irish reported to him? Page 66 75 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 2 A. Boundy, you mean? 3 Q. Yes, sir. 4 A. D irector of Research. 5 Q. Was it that Dr. Irish always reported to the 6 director of research during his career at Dow, as you 7 understood it? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Were there any medical doctors in 10 Dr. Irish' s organization, that you recall? 11 A. When? 12 Q. Any time. 13 A. What time frame? 14 Q. Any time that Dr. Irish was the director of 15 the biochemical research laboratory or what it later 16 became. 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. What's the earliest physician that you can 19 recall in that organization? 20 A. Dr. Maynard Chenoweth. 21 Q. And can you tell me approximately when 22 Dr. Chenoweth would have been in the group? 23 A. Late Seventies, I would guess - estimate. 24 Q. I take - 25 A. Excuse me. 76 1 Q. Yes, sir? 2 A. Late -- Late Sixties or early Seventies. 3 Q. Would you have any understanding of 4 Dr. Chenoweth's background before he joined the group 5 with Dr. Irish? Page 67 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. What did you understand about 8 Dr. Chenoweth's background before he joined 9 Dr. Irish's group? 10 A. He was a professor of pharmacology at the 11 University of Michigan. 12 Q. Did you know Dr. Chenoweth before he joined 13 Dow? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. For approximately how many years would you 16 say you knew Dr. Chenoweth before he joined Dow? 17 A. About two years. 18 Q. Did you know him through his work at the 19 University of Michigan? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. What kinds of activities did you understand 22 Dr. Chenoweth to be doing at the University of 23 Michigan before he joined Dow? 24 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form 25 of the question. 77 1 A. He was a professor and a teacher. 2 Q. And -- I'm sorry. 3 A. I don't know what else. I don't recall what 4 other... 5 Q. Would you recall if he was engaged in any 6 research activities, that you were aware of, in 7 Michigan? 8 A. He was engaged in research, but I don't Page 68 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 9 remember the particular subjects. 10 Q. Could you spell Dr. Chenoweth's name for us, 11 please, sir? 12 A. C-h-e-n-o-w-e-t-h. 13 Q. In the time period that you first joined Dow 14 in the late Thirties, were there any physicians 15 employed by Dow Chemical Company, that you were aware 16 of? 17 A. As a con -- On a consulting basis. 18 Q. Who are you aware of who were acting as 19 medical consultants to Dow Chemical in the late 20 Thirties? 21 A. The general medical profession in the town. 22 Q. Do you recall any names? 23 A. I remember just one. Dr. Rice. 24 Q. Would you recall his first name? 25 A. No. 78 1 Q. Is it your recollection, Dr. Rowe, that Dow 2 Chemical had no full-time-employed medical doctors in 3 the corporation in the late Thirties when you joined 4 the company? 5 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form 6 of the question. 7 A. That's right. Yes. 8 Q. Was there a time that you became aware that 9 Dow did employ a full-time medical doctor? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Appr oximately when would that have been, 12 sir? Page 69 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 13 A. I -- I just don't know. 14 Q. Would it have been - 15 A. Probably in the Forties. 16 Q. In the Forties. 17 would you know? After the War or before; 18 A. I don't know. 19 Q. Do you recall who that would have been, sir? 20 A. Pardon? 21 Q. The first physician. Do you recall who the 22 first full-time physician Dow would have employed 23 would have been? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Who is that, sir? 79 1 A. Dr. Harold Gay. 2 Q. And how would you spell Dr. Gay's name? 3 A. G-a-y. 4 Q. And in what organization within Dow did you 5 understand Dr. Gay to be working? 6 A. I don't -- I don't know what you mean. 7 Q. Dow had an organizational structure, and I'm 8 trying to find where Dr. Gay fit into the 9 organizational structure. 10 A. I can't tell you. I don't know. 11 Q. Did you have an understanding of Dr. Gay's 12 background before he joined Dow? 13 A. No. No. 14 Q. Did you know him at Dow? 15 A. I knew him at Dow. Page 70 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 16 Q. Would your job activities have brought you 17 in contact with Dr. Gay as a physician? I mean 18 professionally. 19 A. Yes. 20 MR. PIERCE: You have a time 21 frame? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. What kind of work would you have, Dr. Rowe, 24 with Dr. Gay as early as you can remember in your 25 career at Dow? 80 1 A. Well, Dr. Gay would frequently come to us 2 for information and advice with respect to medical 3 problems that he encountered. 4 Q. Do you recall some specific examples of 5 that? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Would you give me some of the ones you 8 remember, please. 9 A. The first one I can recollect had to do with 10 carbon tetrachloride. And he was seeing too many 11 people that didn't feel well. And he wanted to know 12 what we knew about it. 13 Q. Were these people who had been working with 14 carbon tetrachloride? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Did the medical program at Dow, to your 17 knowledge, grow with time after Dr. Gay was hired? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Were there other full-time physicians who Page 71 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 20 were hired by Dow Chemical Company after Dr. Gay? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Can you remember any of those gentlemen or 23 ladies? 24 A. Dr. Harold Gordon, Dr. Benjamin Holder, 25 Dr. Charnweber, Dr. Kilian, Dr. Landon - "Lanham" I 81 1 should say - some others whose names I can't 2 recollect. 3 Q. Would you know, sir, is Dr. Gay still 4 living? 5 A. No. He is not. 6 Q. Is Dr. Gordon still living? 7 A. As far as I know. 8 Q. Where was he located the last time you knew, 9 sir? 10 A. 11 Q. 12 living? 13 A. 14 Q. It was in Colorado somewhere. Dr. Holder: would you know if he's still Yes. He is. And where was he the last time you knew, 15 sir? 16 A. 17 Q. 18 A. 19 Q. In Florida somewhere. And Dr. Charnweber -- Is that his name? I don't know. Could you spell Dr. Charnweber's name for 20 us, please? 21 A. I'll try. 22 MR. HOBSON: Can you spell it Page 72 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 23 better than he pronounced it? 24 A. C-h-a-r-n-w-e-b-e-r. 25 Q. Thank you. And Dr. -- Is it "Lanham"? 82 1 A Lanham. 2 Q Could you spell that, please? 3 A L-a-n-h-a-m. 4 Q Would you know Dr. Lanham's first name, 5 please? 6 A I don't recall at the moment. 7 Q Would you know if he's still living? 8 A Yes. He is. 9 Q And where was he the last you knew, sir? 10 A In Midland. 11 Q Is he still with Dow, to your knowledge? 12 A Is not, no. 13 Q And Dr. Kilian. Which Dr. Kilian would that 14 have been, please, sir? First name. 15 A. Jack. 16 Q. I believe Dr. Jack Kilian is de ceased. 17 A. Pardon? 18 Q. Is Dr. J ack Kilian deceased? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And Dr. Charnweber: would you recall his 21 name? 22 A. Charles. Charles. 23 Q. Charles. And would you know if he's stil 24 living, sir? 25 A. I don't know. Page 73 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 83 1 Q. The biochemical research laboratory, where 2 was it physically located in the late 1930's? 3 A. Located on Bay City Road. I don't know how 4 else to describe it. There was no streets or anything 5 like -- It was in the plant. 6 Q. Bay City Road within which plant? 7 A. In the fence -- It was in the plant area. 8 Q. And which plant would that have been, sir? 9 A. Midland Chemical Company -- Dow Chemical 10 Company in Midland. 11 Q. Now, when Dr. Gay was employed by Dow, where 12 was his office physically located, if you know, sir? 13 A. It was also on Bay City Road. Again, no 14 street. 15 Q. A different building than the biochemical 16 research laboratory's location? 17 A. No, no. 18 Q. Same building? 19 A. No. 20 Q. I'm sorry. I'm confused. Was Dr. Gay 21 located in the same building as the biochemical 22 research laboratory? 23 A. No, sir. 24 Q. Did the biochemical research laboratory stay 25 in the same location while you were an employee at 1 Dow, or did it change? Page 74 84 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 2 A. Two questions. Would you repeat - Give it 3 to me one at a time. 4 Q. Yes, sir. Let me ask it this way: Where 5 was the biochemical research laboratory physically 6 located during your tenure with Dow? 7 A. I described to you where it was initially. 8 Q. Yes, sir. 9 A. And then a new building was built in 1955, 10 and that was on Austin Street and Washington - Austin 11 and Washington. Then when the units were broken up, 12 we built a new building, also on Washington and Austin 13 but on the northeast corner. And that was known as 14 the toxicology laboratory. 15 Q. The - 16 MR. PIERCE: I'm going to just 17 interpose an objection now to this 18 whole line of questioning. You're 19 asking the witness to give you 20 addresses for events that happened 40 21 and 50 years ago clearly not relevant 22 at all - Dr. Gay's address, this 23 office's address. I wish you would 24 keep to relevant questions so that we 25 can all complete this deposition and 85 1 that Dr. Rowe need not be put through 2 this type of questioning. 3 MR. BLANKS: They're pretty 4 abusive questions, aren't they? Page 75 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 5 Q. When you say "Austin and Washington," 6 Dr. Rowe, is that still within the plant? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Is Austin and Washington - are those streets 9 in Midland, Michigan? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And you say the new building - the second 12 new building - that was built after the breakup, and 13 you called that the tox. lab. Was industrial hygiene 14 still located within the tox. lab, then, after the 15 breakup? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. If I've understood correctly, you've told me 18 that the biochemical research laboratory - one of its 19 jobs was to do toxicity testing. 20 Going back to the late 1930's when you first 21 joined Dow, can you tell me if you have any 22 understanding how it was decided what materials would 23 be tested at the biochemical research laboratory? 24 A. I didn't make that decision at that time; 25 so, I don't know. 86 1 Q. Was there a point in time in your career 2 where you either made that decision or were involved 3 in having input in making the decision as to what 4 materials would be tested by the biochemical research 5 laboratory at Dow? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Appr oximately when would that have been, 8 please? Page 76 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 9 A. I -- I don't -- I can't answer. I don't 10 know. 11 Q. Can you give me a decade? 12 A. Probably in the Fifties. 13 Q. Once you either had input or were -- Strike 14 that. Let me ask it this way: Was there a time when 15 you only had input into the decision making; or was 16 there a time that you, yourself, actually made the 17 decision about the priorities of what would be tested? 18 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form 19 of the question. 20 A. Two questions again. Would you rephrase the 21 question, please. 22 Q. Yes, sir. Was there a time when you were 23 you had the responsibility of making the decision as 24 to what materials would be tested at the biochemical 25 research laboratory? 87 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Before you had that decision-making 3 authority, was there someone else who made those 4 decisions but to whom you made input? 5 A. Those decisions were usually joint decisions 6 with input from various sources. 7 Q. Would you tell us for the time period that 8 you have knowledge of what the criteria would have 9 been for making the decision as to what materials 10 would be tested? 11 MR. PIERCE: For the period that Page 77 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 12 you know (directed to the witness). 13 Q. Absolutely. 14 A. Well, I don't think there was any material 15 any new material - that was produced at Dow Chemical 16 Company that didn't go through our laboratory. 17 Q. When you say "go through our laboratory," 18 how do you mean that? 19 A. I mean subjected to evaluation 20 toxicological evaluation. 21 Q. What time period can you tell me that you 22 have knowledge of that this would be the case? 23 A. I can't tell you when. It was our general 24 policy to -- As soon as there was any significant 25 interest in a new material, it was almost automatic 88 1 that it would be submitted to our laboratory for 2 evaluation. 3 Q. Is it your understanding that that was the 4 general policy of Dow even in the 1940's? 5 A. I can't be sure about the - that time. 6 Q. But by the 1950's do you feel that that was 7 Dow's general policy, as you understood it? 8 A. These sort of things evolved over a period 9 of years. It just didn't happen to fall off a log. 10 Q. But by the 1950's do you believe that that 11 was Dow's general policy about new materials? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. When you say "new materials," do you mean 14 new materials that Dow was developing? 15 A. Yes. Page 78 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 16 Q. You say that toxicological evaluations would 17 have been made of new materials that Dow was 18 developing, as you've previously described, once it 19 looked like they were going to be - "Promising," I 20 guess, would be a way of saying it. 21 Would you tell us what you mean by 22 "toxicological evaluation" for these new materials. 23 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the 24 form. Objection to the small speech. 25 A. We had various categories of toxicological 89 1 testing - different degrees. And if a material was 2 encountered or developed that was new and there was no 3 information that we could find in the literature, our 4 testing procedure was called what we -- Well, what we 5 called it was a "Class I evaluation," which was 6 designed to determine the - roughly, the qualitative 7 and quantitative hazards associated with ingestion; 8 eye contact; and skin contact; and, if it was likely 9 to be encountered as a vapor or a gas, short 10 inhalation studies. 11 Q. And you say that's Class I. Were there 12 other classes besides Class I? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And what would those classes have been, 15 sir? 16 A. That would be when materials would really 17 begin to show promise. The first class was -- Class I 18 studies were primarily designed to ascertain whether Page 79 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 19 these materials being handled by our research people 20 or whoever - were presented with an unusual hazard. 21 For instance, a splash in the eye, contact with the 22 skin, or accidental ingestion or inhalation. When - 23 The further the material was developed, we would do 24 more extensive studies in both areas - all these 25 areas - and we would begin to do repeated exposures. 90 1 And this progressed along with the development or the 2 promise of a potential product. And the ultimate 3 was -- Of course, lifetime studies ultimately on such 4 materials that were going into food additives were 5 required by Government agencies for approval by the 6 Food and Drug or whatever. 7 Q. So, basically you're saying that as a 8 product was developed, also the toxicological 9 information for that product was developed along with 10 the product? 11 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the 12 form. 13 A. That was the general pattern. 14 Q. Have you heard the terminology used before 15 of "tier testing"? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Is that how you would -- What do you mean by 18 "tier tes ting," or what have you heard it used as? 19 A. It means different things to different 20 people. It's a stepwise evaluation similar to what 21 I've just described. 22 Q. Would it be unfair to characterize what Dow Page 80 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 23 did as tier testing? 24 A. I don't know how other people define "tier 25 testing" that detailed. 91 1 Q. Did you have a name for this kind of testing 2 protocol for new products at Dow? 3 A. We called them Class I, Class II, and 4 Class III evaluations. 5 Q. Well, you obviously don't feel comfortable 6 with the term "tier testing." I was trying to find 7 out if there was another set of terminology we could 8 apply to this. 9 A. Not that I know of. 10 Q. You've told us about Class I in your testing 11 protocols for new products. When would you initiate 12 Class II testing? 13 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form 14 of the question. 15 A. It'd depend on the status of a particular 16 material from the standpoint of production and 17 potential sales or utility. 18 Q. And then when would you initiate Class III? 19 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form 20 of the question. 21 A. Depending upon the type of exposure 22 anticipated if this goes to a major product. 23 Q. Would you have been using the Class I, 24 Class II, Class III protocols for toxicity testing 25 that you've told us about in the 1950's? Page 81 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 92 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Did you keep these protocols a secret at 3 Dow, or did you publish what you were doing or tell 4 others about it? 5 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form 6 of the question. 7 A. I don't think I can answer your question as 8 phrased. If you'll break it up and - I'll do my best. 9 Q. Sure. Is it -- Can I call these protocols 10 "Class I," "Class II," and "Class III"? 11 A. There was never any set protocol. 12 Q. What would be a terminology you'd feel 13 comfortable with I can use in my questions for the 14 Class I, Class II, and Class III? I hesitate to say 15 "scheme" because it may give the wrong connotation. 16 MR. PIERCE: You want the witness 17 to phrase your questions for you, 18 Counselor? 19 MR. HOBSON: No, but I don 't want 20 to use terminology that offends the 21 gentleman. 22 A. It would simply develop -- Your word 23 "protocol" was quite all right, except we did not 24 have what you might call a - the same protocol for 25 every problem. We modified our protocols depending Page 82 93 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 1 upon what the problems or anticipated problems would 2 be. 3 (By Mr. Hobson) 4 Q. This -- This concept of modifying your 5 protocols and fitting in the Class I, Class II, 6 Class III toxicity testing, is that something that you 7 published? 8 A. We published a great deal on the subject. 9 Q. And it was published in the 1950's - part of 10 it - was it not? 11 A. I don't remember the dates. 12 Q. You gave speeches, lectures at different 13 professional societies concerning this activity that 14 you followed with Dow concerning the toxicity testing 15 and the adaptation of these protocols to different 16 product - different products being developed, did you 17 not? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. So, anyone who was following the medical and 20 scientific literature could learn the general 21 undertakings of Dow's toxicity testing of new products 22 as they were developed. Would that be accurate in 23 your view? 24 A. Yes. 25 MR. HOBSON: Dr. Rowe, if you'll 94 1 accept my apologies, I need to take a 2 short break, sir. 3 (SHORTLY AFTER THE RECESS WAS 4 CALLED, IT WAS DECIDED TO BREAK FOR Page 83 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 5 LUNCH. THEREFORE, AT APPROXIMATELY 6 11:15 A.M. THE DEPOSITION WAS RECESSED. 7 AT APPROXIMATELY 12:30 P.M. THE 8 DEPOSITION RESUMED AS FOLLOWS:) 9 (By Mr. Hobson) 10 Q. Dr. Rowe, before we took our luncheon break, 11 we were speaking a little bit about the work at the 12 biochemical research laboratories. I'd like to return 13 to that subject. 14 You told me about new product testing and 15 going through Class I, Class II, Class III testings. 16 Were there any other products besides new products 17 which you at the biochemical research laboratories did 18 toxicological evaluations of? 19 A. Yes. There could be. If we were using a 20 new raw material that was purchased from - new from 21 somebody and there was no literature or toxicological 22 data available, why, we would probably do it, 23 ourselves. 24 Q. Any other materials that you might do 25 testing on at your laboratory other than new products 95 1 or purchased materials for which there was no 2 published toxicity testing data? 3 A. Not that I recollect. 4 Q. How would you know what materials were being 5 used? You talked about these purchased products. How 6 would you know what they were at Dow? 7 A. We had pretty close liaison with research Page 84 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 8 people, and they were pretty well programmed to let us 9 know when there were new materials coming forth. 10 Q. Was that formal or informal in letting you 11 know what purchased materials were going to be used in 12 Dow facilities? 13 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form 14 of the question. 15 A. I would say some of each. 16 Q. Would you describe any formal procedures 17 that you had. 18 A. I don't -- Only that people in the plants 19 and the research laboratories were well aware of us 20 and what was expected; otherwise, I don't think there 21 was anything - no edict put out, if you know -22 Q. Now, the purchased materials that you speak 23 of in this context, are these purchased materials that 24 are being used to manufacture items that are in 25 production or are these purchased materials that are 96 1 for research purposes only or both? 2 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form 3 of the question. 4 A. Could be either. 5 Q. Would you have been involved in the 6 biochemical research laboratory in evaluating the 7 toxicity of materials that were not used in - as 8 manufacturing materials or were not finished products; 9 for instance, intermediates? 10 MR. PIERCE: Is this at any time 11 with any product? Page 85 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 12 MR. HOBSON: We can start there. 13 If he says, "no," that answers the 14 question. 15 MR. PIERCE: Try to answer it, if 16 you can. 17 A. I guess I really don't understand your 18 question. 19 (By Mr. Hobson) 20 Q. All right. As I've understood what you've 21 told me so far, you've said that there are some 22 purchased materials that Dow would evaluate in your 23 laboratory. And you said that you evaluated new 24 products. It's my understanding that when you make 25 some products, you go through an intermediate step on 97 1 occasion. You start off with something you buy, you 2 make an intermediate, you get to the finished 3 product. And my question to you, sir, is: Would you 4 evaluate the toxicology - the toxicity of the 5 intermediate product in this manufacturing process? 6 A. Yes. If there were opportunity and 7 likelihood of exposure to our people, yes. 8 Q. Would you evaluate the toxicity of any 9 materials that were involved in the manufacturing of 10 products but were not actually being used to make the 11 product, itself, as a purchased material? 12 MR. PIERCE: I object to that 13 question. It completely confuses 14 me. But if the witness can answer Page 86 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 15 it - 16 A. I don't understand the question. 17 Q. Would you look at catalyst, for instance? 18 A. That wouldn't be likely because of the very, 19 very small amounts of material. And usually they're 20 not new materials, they've been in use. 21 Q. Did you at the biochemical research 22 laboratories have a method of communicating your 23 knowledge about the toxicity of either products or 24 purchased materials to others within the corporation? 25 A. Yes. 98 1 Q. What mechanism did you use? 2 A. We distributed our reports to every spot 3 that we knew the material might be encountered. 4 Q. Did your reports have a particular name or 5 format that you followed? 6 A. I guess again I don't know really what 7 you're asking. 8 Q. In more recent times we've seen Material 9 Safety Data Sheets. Would you have had some sort of a 10 forerunner to a Material Safety Data Sheet that you 11 would have used to communicate hazards to people in 12 the company? 13 A. That, I believe, was about the first form - 14 more formalized procedure, was a safety data sheet. 15 Q. Can you recall for me, as best you can, 16 about when you began to use these data sheets? 17 A. No. I don't. I can't remember when that 18 was. Page 87 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 19 Q. Can you remember the decade? 20 A. Not for sure. 21 Q. May I ask, sir, when did you leave Dow, what 22 year? 23 A. I retired in '79. 24 Q. Was that at the end of 1979? 25 A. It was July 1st, I believe. 99 1 Q. What titles for your position did you hold 2 while you were at Dow, and approximately when did you 3 hold those? 4 A. I -- I don't remember them all. I think I 5 remember the first one. I was changed from a 6 biochemist to a toxicologist. And then I went up to 7 names such as "technical specialist" and "laboratory 8 director" and "assistant director of the - of 9 laboratory" and "head of health and environmental 10 sciences." I don't know -- Other administrative 11 titles. 12 Q. We've provided a request for certain 13 documents through the attorneys involved in the case. 14 Did that request make its way to you, 15 Dr. Rowe? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Did you bring anything responsive to that 18 request? 19 A. It was -- It is being brought by -- Someone 20 has it. 21 Q. May we have what you responded with, sir? Page 88 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 22 A. Yes. 23 MR. PIERCE: (Tendering a group of 24 documents to Mr. Hobson);. 25 Q. May I ask, Dr. Rowe, when is the first time 100 1 you were aware of our request for documents? 2 A. Monday. 3 Q. And did you receive that request and review 4 it and go through your files and provide information 5 that was responsive to it? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Have you reviewed these articles or 8 documents that I've just been handed by Counsel? 9 A. I have not. 10 Q. Did you provide these to Counsel? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Do you know if I've been provided with what 13 you've provided them? 14 A. Have I checked the listing or anything like 15 that? No. I had copies made and, as far as I know, 16 that's - they're there. 17 MR. PIERCE: If you want a 18 representation, Mr. Hobson, you have 19 it. 20 MR. HOBSON: That... 21 MR. PIERCE: They have these other 22 copies of documents that Dr. Rowe 23 provided to us. 24 MR. HOBSON: And that's all -- You 25 gave me everything he gave you? Page 89 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 101 1 MR. PIERCE: Right. That he said 2 he wanted to provide to you. 3 (By Mr. Hobson) 4 Q. Since your retirement, Dr. Rowe, have you 5 done any consulting? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. With whom have you done consulting, sir? 8 A. I have limited any work that I have done in 9 recent years to those things associated with Dow's 10 operation when I was there. 11 Prior to that I was a consultant to the 12 University of California Department of Toxicology, 13 another firm in the East -- And I can't tell you -- I 14 don't remember the name of it. And I've been a 15 consultant to Government agencies. 16 Q. The firm in the East: what was the nature of 17 that consulting work? 18 A. It was on environmental control. 19 Q. You say that in recent times you've limited 20 your consulting? 21 A. That's right. 22 Q. Can you tell me the nature of that 23 consulting once you limited your consulting 24 activities? 25 A. Had to do with materials and practices that Page 90 102 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 1 I was familiar with when I was at Dow. 2 Q. Was this consulting always for Dow or Dow's 3 attorneys? 4 A. I don't understand your question. 5 Q. Yes, sir. You said that you've - at one 6 point in time here since your retirement you've 7 limited your consulting activities to what you did at 8 Dow, I think. 9 A. (Nodding affirmatively) 10 Q. And I'm wondering if that work once you 11 limited your consulting was always for Dow or for 12 Dow's attorneys. 13 A. I'm still confused with the question. 14 Q. Who employed you for your consulting once 15 you limited your consulting practice? 16 A. Dow Chemical. 17 MR. PIERCE: So long as you're 18 reviewing these documents now, let me 19 take this opportunity to note that the 20 production of these documents does in 21 no way indicate concurrence on the part 22 of myself, as attorney for Dr. Rowe, 23 nor does it, I believe, for the 24 attorney from The Dow Chemical Company, 25 that these are relevant documents; but 103 1 these are the ones that Dr. Rowe 2 thought he should bring to your 3 attention in accordance with his review Page 91 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 4 of the draft subpoena. 5 Q. Dr. Rowe, I find in here a C.V. in the 6 stack. Perhaps we could ask the court reporter to 7 mark it as an exhibit - or we will here and then pass 8 it over to you. In the stack is there only one C.V.? 9 I haven't gone through the whole stack. 10 A. No. I think there's only one. 11 Q. Is that C.V. current? 12 A. I believe so. 13 Q. I meant as opposed to one you found in your 14 files from maybe some years back. 15 A. Well, it hasn't changed for quite a few 16 years. 17 (PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT 141005 ROW VK 18 WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION 19 PURPOSES. SAME WILL BE FOUND IN 20 THE EXHIBIT VOLUMES ATTENDANT TO 21 THIS DEPOSITION.) 22 (By Mr. Hobson) 23 Q. Your publications that are listed here, have 24 there been any others other than in the C.V.? 25 A. I -- I can't answer you. I don't know. 104 1 Q. We've marked this now as Plaintiffs' 2 Exhibit 141005 ROWE V. K. And I'll pass that over to 3 you, sir (tendering document). That's the C. V. you 4 provided - 5 A. That's the one I had in my file. 6 Q. Can you recall, from looking at this C.V., 7 if there are any publications since your retirement Page 92 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 8 from Dow that might not have been included on it? 9 A. (Reviewing document) I do not recall any 10 (tendering document). 11 Q. Are you aware of some publications that you 12 might have written while you were a Dow employee that 13 didn't get on your C.V.? 14 A. I'm not aware of any. 15 Q. When you went to Dow in 1937 at the 16 biochemical research laboratory, was there a library 17 that you had access to? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. What was your -- What's your best 20 recollection of the contents of that library? 21 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form 22 of the question. 23 A. Well, it was a -- We thought it was a pretty 24 good library. I have no way of answering your 25 question in a quantitative or qualitative way, really. 105 1 Q. Was it a library that was for the use of the 2 biochemical research laboratory, or was this a general 3 plantwide or a corporatewide library? 4 A. There was a main library used - for anyone 5 within the company. Within the toxicology or 6 biochemical research laboratory, we maintained those 7 journals that were of particular interest to us. 8 There may well have been a duplicate copy in the main 9 lab - in the main library. 10 Q. The library that you kept at the laboratory, Page 93 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 11 did it include both texts and periodic journals? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Would you recall any of the texts that were 14 in use at the time that you first began at Dow in the 15 late Thirties in the area of toxicology that you would 16 have been using in your work? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Would you remember what publications were in 19 use there at the laboratory at the time you began at 20 Dow? 21 A. I don't remember. 22 Q. What was the general nature of the kinds of 23 texts and periodicals that you had at the biochemical 24 research laboratory library? 25 MR. PIERCE: In 1937? 106 1 MR. HOBSON: Yes, sir. 2 A. Could you p lease give me the date again? 3 (By Mr. Hobson) 4 Q. Yes, sir. When you began in 1937. 5 A. In 1937 the library - our local library 6 probably consisted no more than of what individual 7 were subscribing to, themselves. Maybe Chemical 8 Abstracts, something of that nature, and maybe 9 The Journal of Industrial Hygiene or Toxicology, or 10 whatever was the name of it in those days. But those 11 well could have been just people's copies that they 12 put out - made available. 13 Q. You're familiar with the Industrial Hygiene 14 Foundation, are you? Page 94 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 15 A. Somewhat. 16 Q. Are you aware that at one time they 17 published a digest? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Was that a reference that Dow had at its 20 libraries, to your knowledge? 21 MR. PIERCE: Are you once again 22 asking in 1937? 23 MR. HOBSON: Well, if it was 24 available in 1937 or any time. 25 MR. PIERCE: But is the re a time 107 1 frame for your question? 2 MR. BLANKS: This man's work life 3 would be fine. 4 MR. HOBSON: At any time. 5 A. I cannot give you a time reference; but I am 6 well aware that that was one that was circulated 7 within our laboratory, yes. 8 (By Mr. Hobson) 9 Q. Do you recall that it was circulated when 10 you first went to work at Dow? 11 A. No, I don't recall it. 12 Q. Is there any time that you can give me when 13 you do recall that it was circulated? 14 A. No. 15 Q. In other words, can you put a beginning time 16 on it? 17 A. No. Page 95 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 18 Q. Would you know one way or the other if 19 anyone at Dow had any connection with the Industrial 20 Hyg iene Foundation as part of, like, being on its 21 board or being involved financially in supporting work 22 of the Industrial Hygiene Foundation? 23 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form 24 of the question. 25 A. I don't know. 108 1 Q. Did you, yourself, attend any of the 2 Industrial Hygiene Foundation meetings? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. What is the earliest time period you recall 5 attending those? 6 A. I have no recollection of time frame. 7 Q. Did you know any of the other people who 8 were involved in the Industrial Hygiene Foundation 9 when you first began going to their meetings, whenever 10 they were? 11 A. Dr. Brown comes to my mind. 12 Q. Would you recall his first name? 13 A. I -- I do not -- No. 14 Q. Do you remember any context of Dr. Brown's 15 activities? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Do you know a Vandiver Brown? Does that 18 ring a bell? 19 A. I don't know. It doesn't ring a bell. 20 Q. I believe you, yourself, were a member o 21 the American Chemical Society beginning in 1937; is Page 96 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 22 that right? 23 A. I'm not sure of the date, but I've been a 24 member of it for a long time. 25 Q. I think I've read in some of your 109 1 biographies that it was 1937. Chemical Abstracts is 2 the publication of the American Chemical Socie ty? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Would you have received copies of Chemical 5 Abstracts as part of your membership? 6 A. No. 7 Q. I take it that you were aware of Chemical 8 Abstracts' publication at least as early as your 9 formal education? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. So, you were aware of them being in 12 existence by the time you got to Dow Chemical? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Was Chemical Abstracts a resource that you 15 used in your work at Dow Chemical in the 1930's? 16 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form 17 of the question. 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Do you recall if Chemical Ab stracts was 20 divided into subject categories? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Was there a subject category for Chemical 23 Abstracts that you can recall was more attune to your 24 field of work in the 1930's? Page 97 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 25 A. I don't recall. 110 1 Q. Was it your impression that - at the Dow 2 facilities there in Midland that there was an attempt 3 made to keep a current technical library for use by 4 the personnel? 5 A. Well, they made -- they made the library 6 available to anybody. No one I know of was forced to 7 g. 8 Q. But did it appear to you to be reasonably 9 current and reasonably thorough for the needs that you 10 had? 11 A. I would think so. 12 Q. You don't ever recall complaining that you 13 didn't have a particular resource or nobody would buy 14 a book that you wanted purchased or anything like 15 that? 16 A. I don't remember. 17 Q. Have you had any activities with the 18 American Standards Association? 19 A. I don't recall any of significance. 20 Q. Have you ever been nominated or considered 21 for one of their committees, to your knowledge? 22 A. Not that I recall. 23 Q. Have you ever done any work or had any 24 professional association with the American Petroleum 25 Institute? Page 98 111 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 1 A. No. 2 Q. Would you know one way or the other if Dow 3 is a member of the American Petroleum Institute or has 4 ever been? 5 A. I do not know. 6 Q. Have you become familiar with any 7 publications in the area of health and safety or 8 toxicology published by the American Petroleum 9 Institute? 10 A. Yes. I'm -- I've seen them. I've seen 11 some, anyway. Very few, I expect. 12 Q. I think that I've read in your publications 13 that you were familiar with Professor Philip Drinker 14 at Harvard. 15 A. I know Philip Drinker, Dr. Drinker, yes. 16 Q. Are you aware that Dr. Drinker worked with 17 the American Petroleum Institute to prepare a series 18 called "Toxicological Reviews"? 19 A. I was not aware that he was associated with 20 the institute. 21 Q. Do you recall seeing a publications series 22 by the American Petroleum Institute called 23 Toxicological Reviews? 24 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form 25 of the question. 112 1 Are you asking him if he knows 2 Toxicological Reviews or if he knows 3 that it was prepared, as in your words, Page 99 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 4 by the American Petroleum Institute? 5 MR. HOBSON: I'm asking him if he 6 recalls ever seeing a series of 7 publications called "Toxicological 8 Reviews" published by the American 9 Petroleum Institute. 10 MR. PIERCE: What you're asking 11 him -- I mean, if he knows 12 Toxicological Reviews or if he knows 13 Toxicological Reviews is published by 14 the American Petroleum Institute? 15 MR. HOBSON: There might be more 16 than one Toxicological Reviews. I'm 17 trying to identify which ones, if there 18 are more than one. And I'm asking - 19 MR. PIERCE: I'm trying to show 20 the ambiguity in your question. 21 But let the witness answer it. 22 A. I don't -- I don't recollect. 23 (By Mr. Hobson) 24 Q. Just don't recall one way or the other? 25 A. I don't -- I don't remember anything 113 1 specific about that. 2 Q. Did you know Dr. Drinker professionally? 3 A. I knew him. I never worked with him. 4 Q. Can you give me an idea of how it is that 5 you knew Dr. Drinker? 6 A. I had heard much about him. And, yes, I can Page 100 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 7 remember the first time I met Dr. Dr inker. He was 8 chairman of a session, I believe, at the A.I.H.A. 9 where I gave the first paper I ever delivered. And he 10 kept telling me "Relax. Relax. Relax." 11 Q. I take it that after that you continued to 12 see Dr. Dr inker from time to time. 13 A. No, except as we would meet in a meeting. 14 Q. What was your impression of Dr. Drinker's 15 professional abilities? 16 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the 17 form. 18 A. I had great respect for him. 19 Q. You have an interest and a professional 20 background in industrial hygiene, as well as 21 toxicology; is that right, Dr. Rowe? 22 A. Very limited. 23 Q. I understand that you're certified in 24 industrial hygiene in the toxicological aspects. 25 A. That's right. 114 1 Q. And you've delivered papers at the American 2 Industrial Hygiene Association a number of times over 3 the years. 4 A. Yes. 5 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form 6 of the question. 7 Q. When did you first get interested in 8 industrial hygiene, Dr. Rowe? 9 A. About 1940. As I recollect, probably the 10 first meeting. Dr. Irish was involved in it, and he Page 101 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 11 wanted us to become acquainted with it and participate 12 in it. And he took me to the -- I think that was not 13 the first meeting, the second meeting. Very early in 14 the formation of A.I.H.A. 15 Q. Do you recall what led to Dr. Irish being 16 interested in industrial hygiene, or would you know? 17 A. I think it was because of its thrust in 18 maintenance of healthful working conditions. 19 Q. Was there any function at Dow Chemical 20 Company, to your knowledge, up until this 1940 21 conversation that you recall with Dr. Irish that had 22 to do with industrial hygiene? 23 A. Would you please rephrase or restate that. 24 Q. Yes, sir. I'm trying to find out what, if 25 anything, was going on at Dow Chemical Company 115 1 regarding industrial hygiene prior to 1940 when you 2 had this meeting with Dr. Irish that you would know 3 about. 4 MR. PIERCE: Is there a question 5 pending? 6 MR. HOBSON: Yeah. That's it. 7 A. Yes. When I arrived in '37 and in the first 8 years, Dr. Adams had fashioned a pump with a Wet-test 9 meter on it, which he had to have a truck practically 10 to haul various places, to take air samples in various 11 places. And I was aware of this. I helped him build 12 the pump. 13 (By Mr. Hobson) Page 102 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 14 Q. And Dr. Adams, then, was actually doing air 15 sampling after he devised his pump within Dow's 16 facilities? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Was it your impression that that was the 19 beginnings of air sampling for airborne contaminants 20 in Dow's facilities? 21 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form 22 of the question. 23 A. As far as I know, yes. 24 Q. Can you remember what kinds of materials 25 Dr. Adams was sampling in those days, as you've 116 1 described? 2 A. One was methyl bromide. 3 Q. That's a material that Dow was manufacturing 4 at the time? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. In Midland? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Any other materials you can recall being 9 sampled? 10 A. We sampled many materials. I don't know 11 what time or what he was working on at the time. I 12 can't answer the question sensibly. 13 Q. This beginning of building the pump that 14 you've told us about with the Wet-test meter, was that 15 shortly after you went to work at Dow? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. What other activities, if any, did you have Page 103 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 18 in air sampling until you had the meeting with 19 Dr. Irish in 1940? 20 A. Would you restate that again, please. 21 Q. Yes, sir. All I understood you to tell me 22 that you did was help Dr. Adams build a pump. And I'd 23 like to know if you did anything else in connection 24 with industrial hygiene besides help Dr. Adams build 25 the pump. 117 1 A. I helped him in the - when we were 2 sampling. I helped -- He was the primary; I was his 3 helper. 4 Q. So, you actually were involved in the air 5 sampling, itself. 6 A. Yes, yes. 7 Q. And, now, once you had the meeting with 8 Dr. Irish in 1940, can you pick up there and tell me 9 your involvement in industrial hygiene at Dow 10 following that meeting that you went to at the 11 American Industrial Hygiene Association? 12 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form 13 of the question. 14 A. Well, my involvement in industrial hygiene 15 was cursory to my laboratory work in toxicology; but I 16 did on occasion visit plants and talk to them about 17 the problems they might have. I've been in the 18 plant. I've taken samples, myself - few, but I have. 19 And then we had people - gradually added a few 20 people. And it didn't really blossom until Page 104 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 21 Mr. Hoyle came with us. And from then on, I don't 22 recollect being in the plants, myself. 23 Q. So, would it be fair to characterize 24 Mr. Hoyle as your first designated full-time 25 industrial hygienist at Dow? 118 1 A. Yes. 2 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form 3 of the question. 4 Q. Do you recall in this time period between 5 1937 and when Mr. Hoyle came into industrial hygiene 6 what kinds of air sampling capabilities you had at 7 Dow? 8 A. I'm not sure I can give you everything. We 9 tried to develop sampling procedures involving 10 halogenated hydrocarbons in which we would pass 11 material through a furnace, collect the halides, and 12 have it sent to the analytical lab for analysis, and 13 with a blood-test meter or some such matter guess or 14 estimate the volume of the sampling in monitoring 15 the - of the occupational exposure as best we could 16 with the techniques we had available at that time. 17 Q. Do you recall if you had the ability to 18 sample particulates from 1937 until Mr. Hoyle came on 19 board? 20 A. I don't remember the particulates. I had 21 nothing to do with them. 22 Q. Now, would there have been someone else who 23 would have been involved with particulates, then? 24 A. I don't know -- I don't think I don't Page 105 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 25 recollect. 119 1 Q. Do you recall having any discussions with 2 anyone outside of Dow about this industrial hygiene 3 activity - in other words, how to collect air samples 4 how to develop air sampling equipment - or was this, 5 something you did all internally at Dow? 6 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form 7 of the question; lack of time frame. 8 Q. I'm interested while in this '37 time period 9 until when Mr. Hoyle came on board. 10 A. I don't recollect. I'm having a hard time 11 associating the various developments that were 12 occurring in that period of time. That's quite awhile 13 ago for me. 14 Q. I can appreciate it's a long time ago. Do 15 you have any recollection of anyone - for instance, 16 from the U. S. Public Health Service - working with 17 you in developing your program or methods? 18 A. No, I don't. 19 Q. How about from any of the universities? I 20 think you said that you knew about the activities at, 21 like, the University of Cincinnati and some other 22 places. Would you have worked with any university 23 personnel in developing an industrial hygiene program 24 before Mr. Hoyle came? 25 A. Not that I recollect. Page 106 120 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 1 Q. Were there any insurance carriers for Dow, 2 that you're aware of, in that time period from '37 3 until Mr. Hoyle came on who might have provided you 4 information about air sampling? 5 MR. PIERCE: Obj ection to 6 form. 7 A. I don't recollect any. 8 Q. Have you ever had any dealings with 9 insurance companies while you've been a Dow employee, 10 Dr. Rowe? 11 MR. PIERCE: That's a completely 12 ambiguous question. 13 But answer it if you can. 14 Q. I'm talking about professionally. Any 15 industrial hygienists from insurance companies come 16 into Dow? 17 A. No, except that I knew some of the people in 18 there. But just meetings, we never had -- I never had 19 any contact with them on the technicalities. 20 Q. Would you know one way or the other while 21 you were a Dow employee if any insurance company 22 industrial hygienist ever did any air sampling in Dow 23 facilities? 24 A. I can't recall any. 25 Q. Did Dow, to your knowledge, sir, have any 121 1 industrial hygiene consultants, people who were not 2 employees of Dow? Page 107 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 3 A. Not that I can recollect. 4 Q. Would you tell us - 5 MR. PIERCE: Could we knock off 6 the background chatter please? 7 I'm sorry. Go ahead. 8 MR. HOBSON: Okay. I didn't hear 9 any, so -- I'm sorry. 10 (By Mr. Hobson) 11 Q. Would you tell me, sir, how your job at 12 Dow once Mr. Hoyle was hired - how you would work with 13 Mr. Hoyle, if you did? 14 A. Well, my area was in charge of -- My area 15 was in charge of learning the facts as far as 16 toxicology was concerned and helping to interpret the 17 results that might come back from the field. We 18 conversed all the time. We were in the same building 19 together. So, sure, we talked about problems that we 20 had, what we might anticipate, and so on. 21 Q. That's -- What I'd like to know about, 22 Dr. Rowe, is what - how did you interface - not what 23 you necessarily said, but how did toxicology relate to 24 industrial hygiene? 25 MR. PIERCE: I object to the form 122 1 of the question. 2 A. Well, I always have kind of looked at that 3 as "hand in glove." 4 Q. Can you explain what you mean by that? 5 A. Well, an industrial hygienist that doesn't 6 know anything about - does not have the background Page 108 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 7 information would have a hard time interpreting his 8 results, I think. And he relies on us for the 9 information. 10 Q. And what kind of information? 11 A. Toxicological information. 12 Q. And do you rely on the industrial hygienist 13 for any part of your work, then, as a toxicologist? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. How does that work? 16 A. Well, to -- It comes to down whether or how 17 you comply with what you believe is a - is a safe 18 working atmosphere and what you know about the 19 toxicology, what the effects are, what kind of 20 symptoms you might expect to find in the people who 21 are working there, if any. It's a very close 22 relationship. An industrial hygienist without some 23 toxicological help ordinarily - in those days, at 24 least - was at great disadvantage. He was at that 25 point an empirical person. 123 1 Q. And "in those days," you mean in the 2 Fifties? 3 A. Yes. Early in the -- Early in the days 4 industrial hygiene was not a very well-developed art 5 any more than industrial toxicology was. 6 Q. Did medicine play a part in your work in 7 toxicology and industrial hygiene? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. How did that -- How did medicine fit in? Page 109 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 10 A. Well, the information that we developed on 11 animal work was always transmitted to the medical 12 department. And we had discussions with them. And if 13 they happened to see or to have workmen show up at the 14 office - at a medical office - with a particular 15 problem, they had no data. And they didn't have any 16 information on this - on what the exposure was. They 17 would come to us to find out. The first thing we 18 would probably do if we didn't have toxicological data 19 available would be to get something going or get the 20 information and find out what kind of exposures were 21 causing adverse effects. And we communicated freely 22 between the - those operations always. 23 Q. When you say that you would get the 24 information, would you ever get information about 25 toxicology of a material from other manufacturers? 124 1 MR. PIERCE: You mean from 2 publications - scientific publications, 3 treatises? 4 MR. BLANKS: From other 5 manufacturers. 6 MR. PIERCE: That's completely -7 Q. Telephone? By mail? Brochures? I mean, 8 would you relate with other maufacturers? 9 A. Well, at the time -- Well, what time frame 10 are you talking about now? 11 Q. Up until the -- From '37 until your 12 industrial hygiene program began to change. 13 A. Okay. I -- I don't recollect. But it would Page 110 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 14 be very logical, if there were information available; 15 and there wasn't much available in those days. 16 Q. As more information began to be available in 17 your own laboratories, would you have a way of 18 communicating with your customers what you learned 19 about your products? 20 A. Yes. We did this through our safety data 21 sheets. We did it through publications, talks, 22 presentations at meetings, and answering questions 23 when we got them on the telephone or by letter, 24 whatever. 25 Q. Were you involved, Dr. Rowe, in the 125 1 preparation of safety data sheets? 2 A. Only peripherally. For the toxicological 3 information. This was Mr. Hoyle's primarily 4 responsibility. 5 Q. Did you have anything to do with the 6 distribution of the safety data sheets? 7 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form 8 of the question. 9 A. No. That was pretty well standardized, I 10 think. I didn't -- Somebody wanted one special or 11 something like that, why, certainly we would just send 12 them one. That's all. 13 Q. I take it that from your early days in 14 involvement with the American Industrial Hygiene 15 Association you became aware of the American 16 Conference of Governmental Industrial Hygienists. Page 111 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. What is your earliest recollection of 19 learning about that organization's existence? 20 A. Probably about the time I went to the 21 A.I.H.A. meeting. 22 Q. Were you aware that there came a time when 23 the American Conference of Governmental Industrial 24 Hyg ienists published a list of chemicals and exposure 25 levels associated with those chemicals? 126 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. How is it that you learned of this 3 information? 4 A. I can't answer you for sure because this was 5 common knowledge. Everybody that was working in the 6 A.C.G.I. started publishing the threshold limit 7 values. Anybody in the field was - became aware of 8 it. I don't even know when the first one was. It was 9 probably mid-Fifties or some such time; but everybody 10 in the field knew about that, I think. 11 Q. You're familiar with the National Safety 12 Council, are you? 13 A. Yes, to some extent, but not -- I never 14 worked with them real closely. 15 Q. Are you aware that the National Safety 16 Council used to publish the A.C.G.I.H. T.L.V. list in 17 its periodical? 18 A. I think there were a number of publications 19 that published that list. 20 Q. If anyone wanted to find the A.C.G.I.H Page 112 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 21 T.L.V. list, would it have been hard to find if they 22 tried? 23 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form 24 of the question. 25 A. I wouldn't think so. 127 1 Q. I take it that being aware of that list and 2 familiar with it, you know that there's a section that 3 deals with mineral dust. 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. In your work at Dow, do you recall ever 6 being involved with any toxicity testing for asbestos? 7 A. No. 8 Q. O r of asbestos? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Do you recall that in the earliest of the 11 A.C.G.I.H. T.L.V. lists that you're familiar with that 12 asbestos was one of the mineral dusts that was listed? 13 A. I'm aware it was one, yes. 14 Q. Would you know one way or the other of any 15 evaluation of asbestos dust in the air at any Dow 16 facility? 17 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form 18 of the question. 19 A. I guess I'd ask you to repeat, please. 20 Q. Yes, sir. I'm trying to find out if you 21 know one way or the other whether anyone has ever 22 conducted any air samples at a Dow facility for 23 asbestos. Page 113 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 24 A. I don't know. 25 Q. Would you know, Dr. Rowe, one way or the 128 1 other if Dow has ever manufactured a product in which 2 asbestos was a component? 3 A. I don't recall. 4 Q. Did you have records available to you in 5 your work that would tell you what products Dow 6 manufactured and what their constituents were? 7 A. I think that that would be information that 8 was available. Whether I had it or not, I don't know. 9 Q. If we go back to the early part of your 10 career -- And I don't mean necessarily the first day 11 but the first few years - where would you have gone to 12 find out what materials Dow manufactured and what 13 their constituents were? 14 A. I don't know. 15 Q. I see from your C.V. that in 1954 it shows 16 that you were the director of toxicology research 17 section of the biochemical research laboratory. 18 If we go to that point in time or shortly 19 thereafter, would there be a place there that you 20 would know to go to find out products Dow manufactured 21 and what their constituents were? 22 A. Well, the Dow catalog would have given the 23 names of all the products and the constituents, what 24 information would have been available, if I had asked 25 for it from the - from the production plant or whoever Page 114 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 129 1 was involved. 2 Q. What do you mean by a "Dow catalog"? 3 A. Product catalog. 4 Q. There was in existence a Dow product catalog 5 that you recall? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. How far back in time do you recall there was 8 a Dow catalog? 9 A. I don't know. 10 Q. Would you know one way or the other, 11 Dr. Rowe, if asbestos was used in your laboratory in 12 the late 1930's through 1954 when you became the 13 director? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Are you aware that asbestos was sometimes 16 used as a filtering agent in chemical testing? 17 MR. PIERCE: Obj ection - 18 A. Yes. 19 MR. PIERCE: -- to the form. 20 Q. You learned that as part of your training as 21 a chemist in chemistry? 22 A. Yeah. Occasionally used asbestos, yes. 23 Q. But do you recall one way or the other if 24 that was done at any Dow facility, the use of asbestos 25 as a filtering agent? 130 1 MR. PIERCE: Asked and answered. 2 A. I don't know where all it was or wasn't Page 115 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 3 used. 4 Q. Do you recall if Dow was a manufacturer of 5 chlorine? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Have you, yourself, been to the facilities 8 where chlorine was manufactured? 9 A. I was never there. 10 Q. Would you know one way or the other if 11 asbestos was used as a membrane in the cells that were 12 used to make chlorine? 13 A. I don't know. 14 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the 15 form; asked and answered. 16 Q. I'm sorry. I didn't hear you. I didn't 17 hear your answer, sir. 18 A. I don't know. 19 Q. Was Dow a manufacturer of chlorine in the 20 1930's when you began there, to your knowledge? 21 A. My recollection is I -- Yes. 22 Q. And I think you told us that part of your 23 work was evaluating halogenated hydrocarbons; and 24 chlorine would be one of the halogen chemicals, 25 correct? 131 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Are you familiar with what was called the 3 American Standards Association? 4 A. Peripherally. 5 Q. Are you aware that they in the past Page 116 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 6 generated consensus standards? 7 A. I don't recall what kind of standards they 8 were. 9 Q. But you do recall that they generated 10 standards? 11 A. The ANSI standards, yes. 12 Q. And A.S.A., the American Standards 13 Association, later became the American National 14 Standards Institute or ANSI. You know that? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Do you recall having access to any of the 17 A.S.A. standards while you were at Dow? 18 A. I remember seeing them. I couldn't tell you 19 when. 20 Q. Would you recall, Dr. Rowe, if you would 21 have known that asbestos was a component of any of the 22 thermal insulation materials used in any of Dow's 23 facilities from 1937 to 1954? 24 MR. PIERCE: Asked and answered. 25 A. Yes. It was a commonly used pipe 132 1 insulation. 2 Q. Do you recall seeing any - any information 3 from manufacturers of thermal insulation products 4 containing asbestos about any health hazards from 5 asbestos in your work at Dow up until 1960? 6 A. I don't recall specifically, no. 7 Q. Would you, Dr. Rowe, have ever been involved 8 as a Dow employee in visiting someone else's 9 operations other than Dow's where Dow products were Page 117 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 10 being used in evaluating either the toxicological or 11 industrial hygiene aspects of a Dow product? 12 A. Yes. 13 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form 14 of the question; it's compound and it's 15 confusing. 16 But go ahead and answer it. 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. What do you recall in that regard, Dr. Rowe? 19 A. The one I recall was a visit - And this was 20 essentially an industrial hygiene visit - in the early 21 days in Texas in a flour mill which was using methyl 22 bromide. And I was asked to go down there and talk to 23 them about methyl bromide. And they wanted some air 24 samples taken, which I did. 25 Q. And about when would that have been, sir? 133 1 A. That would have been in the early Forties, 2 probably. Around '40 or somewhere after that. 3 No, no. I can't answer you exactly. It 4 would be early days. 5 Q. Methyl bromide was used as a fumigant for 6 grains? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Is part of evaluating the industrial hygiene 9 aspects of a product a consideration of how that 10 product is going to be used in the field? 11 MR. PIERCE: Objection to form of 12 the question. Page 118 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And essentially what you were doing in 1940 15 or thereabouts whenever you made this trip to the 16 field in Texas was evaluating its use in the field: 17 is that accurate? 18 A. I guess I would agree that's part of the 19 part of the program, yes. 20 Q. Did you have any involvement at Dow in 21 writing any kind of labeling or instructions that had 22 to do with health and safety in the use of products 23 that Dow manufactured? 24 A. At times. 25 Q. How far back would that go in your career at 134 1 as best you can recall, Dr. Rowe? 2 A. I cannot tell you. I don't know. 3 Q. In writing labeling or instructions for use 4 that have to do with health and safety of products, is 5 it important to know how those products are going to 6 be used in the field? 7 A. Insofar as reasonably possible. 8 Q. And how would you, as a manufacturer working 9 for a manufacturer of products, determine how products 10 are going to be used in the field? 11 MR. PIERCE: Objection to form of 12 the question. 13 A. Well, products are usually designed for a 14 particular use; but there are times when your 15 customers don't care about you knowing what they're 16 going to be used for. Page 119 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 17 Q. I'm not sure I understand how that fits into 18 your - the information you need to know to write 19 labeling and instructions for use. 20 A. Well, if you don't - if you're not sure 21 that - how it's going to be used, then you don't know 22 what kind of exposures to anticipate. 23 Q. And that's why you need to know how a 24 product is going to be used in the field? 25 A. Any bit of information is helpful. 135 1 MR. PIERCE: Maybe this would be a 2 good time to take a brief recess. 3 We've been going more than an hour. 4 MR. HOBSON: That's fine. Take a 5 break. 6 (AT THIS TIME A BRIEF RECESS WAS 7 TAKEN, AND THE PROCEEDINGS THEREAFTER 8 RESUMED AS FOLLOWS:) 9 (By Mr. Hobson) 10 Q. Dr. Rowe, did you have any involvement in 11 your job at Dow in recommending that Dow have a person 12 designated as a full-time industrial hygienist? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to who it was 15 that did initiate the creation of an industrial 16 hygiene position at Dow? 17 A. Dr. Irish. 18 Q. Were you in on any of the discussions that 19 led up to the creation of the position? Page 120 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 20 A. I don't recall. 21 Q. Did you have anything to do with the 22 selection of Mr. Hoyle? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Did you know Mr. Hoyle before he became the 25 industrial hygienist? 136 1 A. No. 2 Q. Did you have anything to do with any of the 3 training or orientation of Mr. Hoyle when he took the 4 industrial hygiene position? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. What did you do in that regard, sir? 7 A. Acquainted him with the toxicological work 8 that we were doing and all in that area. 9 Q. Was it your impression that Mr. Hoyle was 10 not familiar with toxicology before he took the 11 position, or would you know one way or the other? 12 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the 13 form. 14 A. I don't believe he was. 15 Q. What did you do to orient or explain to 16 Mr. Hoyle about toxicology? 17 A. I don't recall. 18 Q. You, yourself -- Sir, I think you've said 19 that you began being involved in the American 20 Industrial Hygiene Association about 1940. 21 Did you go to other American Industrial 22 Hyg iene Association meetings after the early 1940's? 23 A. Yes. Page 121 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 24 Q. Were you a regular attendee at those 25 meetings? 137 1 A. Quite regular. 2 Q. Once Mr. Hoyle had the position, would he 3 have gone to the meetings, also - 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. -- to your knowledge? Was there anyone else 6 at Dow while it was just Mr. Hoyle being the 7 industrial hygienist and yourself that went to the 8 American Industrial Hygiene Association meetings on a 9 regular basis? 10 A. Other people went. I can't attest to how 11 regular. 12 Q. Did Dr. Irish go on several occasions, that 13 you're aware of? 14 A. He was a regular. 15 Q. Anyone else who went more than just once or 16 twice, that you recall, from Dow up until there were 17 other people hired in industrial hygiene for 18 Mr. Hoyle? 19 A. Dr. Adams went quite regularly. 20 Q. Do you recall if Dr. Irish or Dr. Adams made 21 presentations? 22 A. I don't recall. 23 Q. Has any of your interest as an industrial 24 hygienist professionally while you were at Dow dealt 25 with particulates? Page 122 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 138 1 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form 2 of the question and the 3 categorization. The witness has 4 already indicated his particular role 5 in industrial hygiene. 6 But go ahead and answer the 7 question. 8 A. I guess I'd like to have you repeat it. 9 Q. Yes, sir. I'm curious to know if you in 10 your position at Dow had any particular interest in 11 particulates from a toxicology standpoint. 12 A. No. 13 Q. Was there anyone else at Dow, to your 14 knowledge, whose interest was in the area of 15 particulate toxicology? 16 A. No. 17 Q. If you had occasion to need some information 18 about particulate toxicology, where would you go to 19 get that information? 20 MR. PIERCE: Object to the form of 21 the question. 22 A. I would expect that I would go to the 23 primary manufacturers of the particular product that 24 if we had an interest. 25 Q. Was it your experience, Dr. Rowe, when you 139 1 were at Dow that if a customer of Dow's came to you Page 123 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 2 and asked you for toxicity information regarding a Dow 3 product that they would be relying on you to provide 4 them with accurate and as complete information on the 5 toxicity of that product as you had available? 6 A. Yes. 7 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form 8 of the question. 9 Q. I'm sorry, sir. 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. When you were doing your work at Dow, did 12 you ever do any human experimentation in your 13 laboratories, that you're aware of? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. How far back in time do you recall there 16 being human experimentation at Dow's laboratories? 17 A. Probably 1940 -18 Q. Is there -- I'm sorry. Go ahead. I didn't 19 mean to cut you off. 20 A. Roughly. I can't identify it specifically. 21 Q. What kinds of human experimentation was 22 being done in the approximately early 1940's, as best 23 you recall, sir? 24 A. Primarily odor thresholds, irritation 25 thresholds in the early days. 140 1 Q. How would you go about conducting this work? 2 A. Well, you'd create a chamber, establish a 3 concentration, measure it, enter the chamber, and see 4 what happens. 5 Q. Who would be the the people who were Page 124 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 6 involved in actually entering the chamber and being 7 exposed to the materials? 8 A. Dr. Irish, Dr. Adams, and myself. Even 9 Mr. Hoyle or whoever else happened to be available. 10 Q. In essence you were doing human 11 experimentation on the staff of the laboratory. 12 A. That's all. 13 Q. And was this prior to Dr. Gay being hired by 14 Dow? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. How long did you all continue to do 17 experiments on yourselves? 18 A. I can't answer you. Don't know. 19 Q. Would it have been more than ten years, you 20 think? 21 A. Oh, yes. 22 MR. PIERCE: By "experiments," you 23 mean threshold of odor and precisely 24 what Dr. Rowe described; is that 25 correct, Mr. Hobson? 141 1 MR. HOBSON: Yes. Whatever they 2 did. 3 (By Mr. Hobson) 4 Q. Was there a point in time that you thought 5 better of the human experimentations on yourself and 6 stopped for that reason, or why did you stop? 7 MR. PIERCE: Objection to form of 8 the question. Page 125 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 9 A. I didn't know we stopped. 10 Q. Okay. As far as you know, when you left Dow 11 there was still the same kind of human experimentation 12 going on? 13 A. I -- I wasn't a part of it at that time 14 but -- I don't know. 15 Q. Do you recall that methyl bromide was one of 16 the materials that you would do human experimentation 17 on in the early 1940's? 18 A. No. 19 Q. And was it lat er done? 20 A. I don't think it was ever done. 21 Q. Did you, sir, yourself, ever while you were 22 a Dow emp loyee get invol ved in any epidemiology 23 studies? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Would you know if there were any 142 1 epidemiological studies done of Dow employees while 2 you were a Dow employee? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Who would have been doing those, sir? 5 A. Medical department and another M.D., 6 epidemiologist, Dr. Cook. 7 Q. Would you recall Dr. Cook's first name? 8 A. No. Yes. Ralph. 9 Q. Can you give me the approximate time period, 10 as best you understand, when epidemiological studies 11 were begun at Dow? 12 A. No. I can't remember. Page 126 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 13 Q. Would you remember the decade? 14 A. Probably in the later Sixties. 15 Q. In the what, sir? 16 A. In the late Sixties. 17 Q. Did you have any role in giving input to the 18 epidemiologist or the medical department about what 19 should or should not be included in epidemiological 20 studies? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Did you provide any review of 23 epidemiological studies or drafts of epidemiological 24 studies for Dow? 25 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form 143 1 of the question. 2 A. I don't recall any. 3 Q. Basically you got the report when it was 4 finished, and that's about it as far as the 5 epidemiological work went on? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Would you know one way or the other if any 8 epidemiological studies were ever done of the Dow 9 Freeport facility or any groups within Dow Freeport? 10 A. I don't know. 11 Q. To your knowledge, wereepidemiological 12 studies performed by Dow published? 13 A. I don't know. 14 Q. Were you ever involvedpersonally with 15 communicating health hazards that might be associated Page 127 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 16 with a particular compound to workers who would be 17 handling that material? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. How far back in your Dow history would that 20 go, sir? 21 A. Early Forties. 22 Q. I guess part of your trip to Texas where you 23 were dealing with methyl bromide included that 24 activity, did it not, telling workers about the 25 hazards of methyl bromide? 144 1 A. I don't recall just what we did. 2 Q. Did you find that it was good practice to 3 advise employees about potential health hazards 4 associated with products they would be handling? 5 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the 6 form. 7 A. We made that information available to 8 anybody. 9 Q. And, in fact, I think you have published, 10 have you not, that telling the worker about health 11 hazards is necessary to help gain the assistance of 12 the worker in controlling risks to occupational 13 hazards, correct? 14 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the 15 form. 16 A. I think so. 17 Q. Would that be your position still today, - 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. -- Dr. Rowe? Page 128 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 20 A. Yes, it would. 21 Q. Workers should be informed about potential 22 risks of the use of any materials that they work with? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. As far as you're aware, Dr. Rowe, was that 25 Dow's practice for the time periods you worked at Dow 145 1 to inform its workers about any kind of health risks 2 associated with products the workers would be 3 handling? 4 A. It was a general policy. 5 Q. Are you aware of any instance where a 6 decision was made not to tell Dow employees of any 7 particular health risk associated with a product that 8 they would be handling? 9 A. No. I don't believe that ever happened 10 but -- Not to my knowledge. 11 Q. And certainly if it had come to your 12 attention, I think, based on what I've seen of your 13 writings, you would have taken any steps necessary to 14 prevent it, would you not have? 15 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the 16 form. 17 A. I probably would. 18 Q. Have you ever been accused of being bashful 19 Dr. Rowe, in your professional activities? 20 A. No . I don't believe so. 21 Q. I understand that one of your interests in 22 the past has been occupational carcinogens; is that Page 129 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 23 correct? 24 A. Only as one facet of toxicology. 25 Q. What is your recollection of how early in 146 1 your career you began to be interested, as one facet 2 of toxicology, in occupational cancers? 3 A. I don't know. 4 Q. Was Dow, to your knowledge, ever a 5 manufacturer of aromatic amines? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Tell me what you're aware of as far as Dow 8 being a manufacturer of aromatic amines. 9 MR. PIERCE: Le t me now interpose 10 an objection. Are aromatic amines a 11 part of this case? Are we going to go 12 through every product that Dow has ever 13 manufactured in its history? When are 14 we going to get to the relevant aspects 15 for which Dr. Rowe is here? 16 MR. BLANKS: What was that 17 objection? Is that one to form? 18 MR. PIERCE: Let's get to 19 relevance on this because we're really 20 getting to the point where it's way 21 beyond the toleration point in terms of 22 extraneous materials. Dr. Rowe is here 23 to provide you his answers to questions 24 related to a certain litigation, not on 25 a broad fishing expedition relating to Page 130 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 147 1 nothing even closely resembling 2 relevancy here. So, please, let's get 3 to the matters before us. 4 MR. BLANKS: Well, we are trying 5 to be tolerant of your repeated 6 objections and attempts to coach the 7 witness and instruct him; and we'll 8 proceed with our discovery deposition 9 of areas that the doctor has knowledge 10 of. 11 MR. PIERCE: Well, I've interposed 12 my objections; and I add another one 13 for your insinuations and your 14 outrageous statement that you just 15 made. 16 Q. I think we're back to my question, Dr. Rowe. 17 Can you tell me what you recall about Dow 18 having manufactured aromatic amines, please? 19 A. Well, aniline was a product, has been and 20 was for a long time. 21 Q. Was aniline a product back in the late 22 Thirties when you joined the company? 23 A. As far as I know. 24 Q. Would you have become aware, then, shortly 25 after you joined the company of an association between 148 1 aromatic amines and bladder cancer in workers? Page 131 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 2 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form 3 of the question. 4 A. At some time I became aware of it. 5 Q. Fairly early on in your career, you believe? 6 A. I have no recollection of time frame, no. 7 MR. PIERCE: Does that question 8 imply all aromatic amines? Are you 9 asking all aromatic amines or some 10 aromatic amines? 11 MR. HOBSON: I'm satisfied with 12 the question and answer. 13 MR. PIERCE: Okay. 14 (By Mr. Hobson) 15 Q. What is your earliest recollection, 16 Dr. Rowe, of learning of any association between 17 asbestos and cancer in humans? 18 A. I don't know. I can't recollect when. 19 Q. Can you even give me a decade? 20 A. No, I don't think so. 21 Q. Would the medical and scientific literature 22 as it was coming out in the area of occupational 23 carcinogens - is that something that you believe you 24 would have been trying to follow as closely as you 25 could, given your circumstances? 149 1 A. No. 2 Q. Was cancer being caused by chemicals that 3 you were assessing in your laboratories at the 4 biochemical research laboratory at Dow anything that Page 132 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 5 you attempted to determine? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. How early on would you recall that you at 8 the biochemical research laboratories were trying to 9 find out if chemicals that you were assessing could 10 cause cancer? 11 A. I don't know. Time frames are elusive. 12 Q. One of the items that you've brought here to 13 the deposition, Dr. Rowe, we've marked as Plaintiffs' 14 Exhibit 760600 Dow. And it's titled, "A Historical 15 Account of Dow's Environmental Stewardship," by Eugene 16 E. Kenega. Did I say that right? 17 A. "Ke-nig-a" is the way it's pronounced. 18 Q. I apologize. Is this the article that 19 you brought responsive to a subpoena (tendering 20 document)? 21 MR. PIERCE: (Reviewing document). 22 Counsel, may I ask, are the yellow 23 tabs yours? 24 MR. HOBSON: Yes. We've added 25 yellow tabs and -- 150 1 MR. PIERCE: And the blue 2 underlines? 3 MR. HOBSON: Yes. 4 MR. PIERCE: And the additional... 5 MR. HOBSON: We'll take off the 6 yellow tabs, but unfortunately we can 7 only mark on... 8 MR. PIERCE: Okay. I just wanted Page 133 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 9 it to be clear. 10 MR. HOBSON: Yes. 11 (By Mr. Hobson) 12 Q. That's one of the articles you brought, 13 Dr. Rowe? 14 A. I believe so. 15 Q. What led to the generation of this article, 16 if you know, sir? 17 A. I don't remember. 18 Q. Did you know the author? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. What do you know about the author's work? 21 A. He was very much interested in environmental 22 issues. 23 Q. And he was an employee of Dow, was he? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Can you give me some time frame for how long 151 1 this gentleman was employed by Dow? 2 A. No, I don't remember. 3 Q. I wanted to ask you -- And I think Counsel 4 may have another copy of it. 5 MR. HOBSON: You've got my only 6 one. 7 MR. PIERCE: (Tendering 8 document to Mr. Hobson) 9 (By Mr. Hobson) 10 Q. On the second page of this document, it 11 appears that it attributes a 1938 article to -- A Page 134 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 12 statement in 1938, I guess it is. Let me ask you, 13 sir, because I don't know what it implies. Looking at 14 this article that's Exhibit 760600 DOW, on page 173 15 there's a paragraph in the right-hand column that 16 starts out "1938." Could you take a look at that, 17 sir, and tell us what that means to you (tendering 18 document)? 19 A. (Reviewing document) I remember a meeting 20 with the F.D.A. I don't know what year it was, and I 21 don't recollect this particular situation. 22 Q. "This particular situation" being what, sir? 23 A. That we were testing materials for 24 carcinogenic - cancer-producing potential on 25 susceptible mice over a period of six months. 152 1 I don't remember if we were doing that at 2 that time. 3 Q. Does this article appear to you to say that 4 this work was being done in 1938? 5 A. That I can't attest to. I don't remember 6 at - at that time. 7 Q. There's a name here of "H. C. Spencer." I 8 don't recollect that as being a name we've talked 9 about. 10 Can you tell us who Mr. Spencer was? - or 11 maybe you did. I'm sorry. Dr. Spencer. You did tell 12 us. I beg your pardon. 13 Sir, I need to ask your indulgence for a 14 moment on this. Is it your testimony that you just 15 don't recall that you did this work in 1938; or is it Page 135 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 16 your recollection that you recall it did not happen in 17 1938? 18 A. My recollection: I don't recall being 19 engaged in that in 1938 or that early. 20 Q. Can you tell us that it's wrong? 21 A. No. 22 Q. There's mention here of someone named Dorsey 23 R. Mussell, M-u-s-s-e-l-l. Can you tell me who that 24 is, sir? 25 A. He was -- He was a medical technologist who 153 1 worked with Dr. Spencer. 2 Q. As a med. tech., what kinds of things would 3 Mr. Mussell have been doing? 4 A. Preparing tissues for microscopic 5 examination and doing blood tests - "Blood counts," I 6 should say. 7 Q. Dr. Rowe, I'd like to ask you some questions 8 about some of your work that might have involved the 9 American Conference of Governmental Hygienists. 10 Have you worked with their T.L.V. committees 11 in the past? 12 A. On occasion. 13 Q. Would you tell me what occasions you recall 14 that you've worked on their T.L.V. committees? - or 15 "worked with their T.L.V. committees," I should say. 16 A. I don't recall being a member of the T.L.V. 17 committee or anything. That would not have been - 18 They wouldn't have done that, anyway. But they would Page 136 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 19 frequently call and ask what we - what data we had on 20 a particular substance and what we would recommend, 21 and we never hesitated to talk to them. 22 Q. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to cut you off. 23 A. We tried to be helpful. 24 Q. I have heard it said that you are an 25 ex officio member of the T.L.V. committee. Is that a 154 1 term you've ever heard? 2 A. I suppose if anyone sits down with them and 3 is not a member of that organization, that that's what 4 it would be called. 5 Q. Can you tell me approximately how many times 6 you recall sitting down with the T.L.V. committees? 7 A. I can't tell you. 8 Q. 9 times? Would it have been probably more than ten 10 A. I doubt it. 11 Q. Have you been present at a meeting of an 12 A.C.G.I.H. T.L.V. committee when a decision on a 13 T.L.V. was reached? 14 A. I don't remember. 15 Q. Can you remember any of the people that 16 you've met with in regards to the T.L.V.'s of the 17 American Conference of Governmental Industrial 18 Hygienists? 19 A. Professor Warren Cook. I don't recall 20 offhand members of the committee at that time other 21 than Warren. 22 Q. Have you ever opposed the adoption of Page 137 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 23 threshold limit values as exposure standards for laws? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Have you been involved in -- Strike that. 155 1 I take it, Dr. Rowe, that you understand how 2 threshold limit values were intended to be used. 3 A. I can't answer that the way it's phrased. 4 Q. Do you understand, sir, that threshold limit 5 values were never intended to be exact cutoffs between 6 safe and hazardous? 7 A. I think that's a fair statement. 8 Q. And that exposures that occur at or even 9 below the threshold limit value may in some cases 10 still result in an occupational disease? 11 MR. PIERCE: Objection to form. 12 A. Anything is probable. "Possible," I should 13 say. 14 Q. There -- Certainly, as a toxicologist, sir, 15 I would believe that you would accept that there is 16 wide variation in individual susceptibility for human 17 beings. 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And as such, then, it is impossible to 20 predict the outcome of an exposure for any given 21 individual. 22 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the 23 form; asked and answered. 24 A. It's not impossible to predict. 25 Q. But to predict with certainty, I guess, it's Page 138 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 156 1 impossible. 2 A. Well, what degree of certainty? 3 Q. Have you been involved in any discussions 4 that concern the establishment of a threshold limit 5 value and how - what percentage or what portion of a 6 population that T.L.V. will protect? 7 MR. PIERCE: I'm going to object 8 to the form of the question in that a 9 portion of it is actually tes 10 attempted testimony. 11 But go ahead. 12 A. I will have to have the question factored 13 before I can attempt to answer it. 14 Q. What kinds of factors would you need to 15 know, s ir? 16 A. Well,, restate it. 17 MR. HOBSON: Let me ask the young 18 lady to read it back. That way we'll 19 have it exact. 20 THE REPORTER: "QUESTION : Have 21 you been involved in any discussions 22 that concern the establishment of a 23 threshold limit value and how - what 24 percentage or what portion of a 25 population that T.L.V. will protect?" Page 139 157 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 1 A. That's two questions. I can't answer two 2 questions at once. 3 (By Mr. Hobson) 4 Q. Which two questions do you see there, 5 Dr. Rowe? 6 A. You asked if I'm involved - been involved in 7 any of the - of the setting of threshold limits. I'll 8 have to answer that question "yes." 9 Q. All right, sir. 10 A. But with respect to percentile of control 11 people, I'll have to answer "no." 12 Q. My question really was intended to find out 13 if you had any discussions about what percentage would 14 be protected in discussing T.L.V.'s. And you're 15 telling me you've not had any such discussions; - 16 A. No. 17 Q. -- is that right? 18 A. Right. 19 Q. Do you know Mr. Hill who was an industrial 20 hygienist at one time for Dow at Rocky Flats in the 21 Boulder, Colorado, area? 22 A. I do not. 23 Q. Don't reca ll having met him? 24 A. No. 25 Q. I bel ieve, sir, that you have played some 158 1 part in formulating air sampling strategies for 2 control of occupational diseases as part of your 3 professional work. Is that right? 4 A. That's right. Page 140 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 5 Q. And I understand from your - from your 6 writings that you are a firm believer in area 7 monitoring of industrial operations. 8 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form 9 and to what you do or do not 10 understand. 11 Q. Is it true, Dr. Rowe, that you are an 12 advocate of area sampling in industrial operations? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. And if I've read your writings correctly, 15 you are an advocate of doing as much area sampling as 16 possible. Is that right? 17 A. I can't answer that quite that exact in that 18 respect. Anything is possible. You can spend a 19 hundred percent of your time, that's possible; but 20 it's impossible to do so. 21 Q. You're an advocate of doing a great deal of 22 area air sampling in industrial operations, correct? 23 A. As much as is reasonably possible. 24 Q. Why is that, sir? 25 A. Because in any area - occupational area - 159 1 that I'm aware of, concentrations fluctuate and 2 duration of exposure fluctuates. 3 Q. And why would area sampling be preferable to 4 you over personnel sampling, then? 5 MR. PIERCE: Objection to form. 6 A. I didn't say that. 7 Q. Would it be? Page 141 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 8 A. I think the best monitor is personnel 9 sampling, but that's difficult in many instances to do. 10 Q. Why do you think that area sampling gives 11 you a good handle on exposure variations? 12 A. It tells you what areas are - what the 13 fluctuations are within particular given areas of the 14 workplace; and it will identify leaks, anything else 15 that may happen. 16 Q. Identify intermittent activities? 17 A. I don't know what you mean by that. 18 Q. Something that doesn't happen all the time? 19 A. Yeah. Yes. 20 Q. Do you know -- You're familiar with the term 21 "biological monitoring," are you not? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. How does biological monitoring work with 24 doing area sampling and toxicology in protecting a 25 worker's health? 160 1 A. It's another parameter. 2 Q. And how would you, sir, as a health 3 professional, utilize biological monitoring in 4 protecting a worker's health? 5 A. Well, biological monitoring measures the 6 integrated exposure to the individual, if it's - if 7 it's predicated upon blood concentrations, urine 8 analyses, breath samples; and it can tell you whether 9 people are doing their job correctly. 10 Q. And I think you've also published that 11 biological monitoring can indicate whether or not your Page 142 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 12 exposure level is adequate or not; isn't that true? 13 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form 14 of the question. 15 A. It is one parameter. 16 Q. So, if you're using known toxic materials, 17 would you agree, sir, that biological monitoring is 18 important to incorporate into the overall health and 19 safety activity to know whether or not your exposure 20 levels are adequate? 21 A. It's one parameter. 22 Q. An important one? 23 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the 24 form. 25 A. It's not possible with everything; but where 161 1 it is reasonably possible and analytical methods are 2 available, it's helpful. It's a parameter in total 3 evaluation. 4 Q. Would you include chest X ray as one method 5 of biological monitoring? 6 A. I'll leave that to the radiologists. 7 Q. You're not familiar with industrial hygiene 8 programs - occupational safety and health programs 9 that incorporate chest X rays into biological 10 monitoring? 11 A. Oh, yes. 12 Q. So, in some cases chest X rays are included 13 in biological monitoring in health and safety 14 programs. Page 143 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 15 A. It can be. 16 Q. Are you familiar with the term 17 "pneumoconiosis-producing" dust? 18 A. Somewhat. 19 Q. Would you know one way or the other if a 20 chest X ray could be one of the appropriate biological 21 monitoring tools for a pneumoconiosis-producing dust 22 exposure? 23 A. If they were positive, it would probably 24 indicate - it would indicate something had happened 25 there. If they're negative, it doesn't mean anything 162 1 except nothing has happened. It doesn't tell me what 2 the exposure would be. 3 Q. Yes, sir. And to get the exposure, that's 4 the reason you would go do air sampling. If I 5 understood you, you told me that finding - the 6 findings of a chest X ray will not tell you the 7 quantity of exposure to that individual. And my 8 question to you, sir, is in order to get the quantity 9 of exposure, that requires some sort of air sampling, 10 does it not? 11 MR. PIERCE: Let me object to the 12 repetitive nature of the questioning 13 and remind you that Dr. Rowe has 14 identified himself as a toxicologist. 15 But go ahead and answer. 16 A. A chest X ray only would be -- Well, I 17 shouldn't say "only" - would not indicate when 18 necessarily an exposure occurred or what intensity the Page 144 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 19 exposure was. So, it's qualitative and certainly 20 could not be used to quantitate what an exposure was 21 at some previous period of time. 22 Q. And if we wanted to know the answer to when 23 the exposure occurred and how much the exposure was, 24 the way to find the answer to those questions is to do 25 air sampling; is that correct? 163 1 MR. PIERCE: Obj ection; it's a 2 compound question. 3 A. It's kind of like getting the horse before 4 the cart. You can't retrospectively conduct air 5 samples. 6 Q. I understand that, sir. But what my 7 question is, is that if you wanted to know how much a 8 person was exposed to of a pneumoconiosis-producing 9 dust, the way to answer that question is to do air 10 sampling, isn't it? 11 MR. PIERCE: Continue the 12 objection. 13 A. I still don't understand -- I'm trying to 14 explain, but I'm not getting through. Tell me again. 15 Air -- Go ahead. 16 Q. All right, sir. If we wanted to know how 17 much a person was going to be exposed to and we're 18 talking about a pneumoconiosis-producing dust, the way 19 to find out that question is to do air sampling while 20 they're doing their work, correct? 21 A. That' s prospective, yes, sir. Page 145 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 22 Q. And if we're doing our air sampling 23 prospective and we're taking chest X rays of the 24 potentially exposed people as we go, then you can have 25 an assessment as to whether or not the exposures the 164 1 person is receiving is responsible for a lung 2 disease. Do you agree with that? 3 A. Well, yes. 4 Q. And as I've understood your writings, Would 5 you agree that, then, if you've got historical air 6 sampling information and you've got historical 7 biological monitoring, it's the combination of the two 8 that gives you a handle on whether or not your 9 exposure levels that you're setting in the workplace 10 are adequate? 11 MR. PIERCE: Once again I'd like 12 to object to questions phrased in terms 13 of your understanding. 14 But go ahead and answer the 15 question. 16 A. It will give you -- No. It will give you an 17 indication of whether you're within an acceptable 18 range on the basis of judgment of peers or others. 19 Q. Doing the biological monitoring along with 20 the air sampling is part of the checking of the 21 judgment of the peers as to the adequacy of the 22 exposures levels, correct? 23 A. It's one of the parameters. 24 Q. Have you ever had any discussions with any 25 of the A.C.G.I.H. T.L.V. committees regarding Page 146 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 165 1 asbestos? 2 A. No. 3 Q. How about with any pneumoconiosis-producing 4 dust? 5 A. Not that I recollect. I don't recollect 6 any. 7 Q. Dr. Rowe, do you know or did you know 8 Jim Hammond? 9 A. Yes. I know Jim Hammond. 10 Q. Have you ever had any professional dealings 11 with Professor Hammond while he was an employee of 12 Exxon and while you were an employee of Dow that 13 involved company business? 14 A. I don't recollect any. 15 Q. Yours has been through professional 16 associations, - 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. -- your association with him? Do you know 19 Arthur Pabst? 20 A. Who? 21 Q. Arthur Pabst, P-a-b-s-t. 22 A. That doesn't ring any bells. 23 Q. He was an industrial hygienist at Mobil or 24 was - 25 A. I don't -- Page 147 166 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 1 Q. -- predecessor - 2 A. I don't know him. 3 Q. Do you recall having any professional 4 dealings that were part of your work at Dow, not 5 through the professional associations, with any of the 6 oil company industrial hygienists? 7 A. With Dr. White. 8 Q. Dr. Norman White? 9 A. I don't recall others. 10 Q. What was your business dealing with 11 Dr. Wh ite, as you recall? 12 A. I don't recall. We were -- We were 13 schoolmates. We have known each other for 55 years 14 60 years. We've talked about business at times. I 15 don't recollect what we talked about. 16 Q. Would you recall Allan Dooley? 17 A. I knew Allan -- I knew the name. I know - 18 I know Allan Dooley. 19 Q. Did you ever have any Dow company business 20 dealings with him? 21 A. Not that I know of. 22 Q. Did you know Lucian Renes? 23 A. Who? 24 Q. Lucian Renes, R-e-n-e-s, who was at 25 Phillips? 167 1 A. No, I did not. 2 Q. Would you have known Mr. Dooley when he was 3 working for the State of Pennsylvania before he went Page 148 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 4 to Texaco? 5 A. I -- I did not know Al closely at all. 6 We -- Typical meeting acquaintances. 7 Q. I take it that you knew Warren Cook. 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. He was located in Michigan for some time; is 10 that right? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Did you know him before he moved to 13 Michigan? 14 A. I don't know if I can answer your question. 15 Q. Do you recall ever talking to Dr. Cook about 16 asbestos at all? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Did you know Dr. Wilhelm Hueper? 19 A. I had met him. That's all. 20 Q. Can you recall what context you met 21 Dr. Hueper in? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Do you know of his work at all? 24 A. Yes. I know a little of it. Very little of 25 it. 168 1 Q. Is his work something you particularly 2 followed or just happened to come across it in the 3 literature? 4 A. No. We didn't follow it. 5 Q. I asked you about Dr. Drinker at Harvard. 6 Did you work with anyone at Harvard? 7 A. I don't think so. I don't recall any... Page 149 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 8 Q. Harvard was never a contractor for any 9 purpose to Dow, that you're aware of? 10 A. I don't think so, no. 11 Q. Would you recognize the name John - I think 12 it's "Staudt," S-t-a-u-d-t? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Other than Harvard at the school of public 15 health there, can you tell me what other public health 16 or occupational health programs you recall were in 17 place in the late Thirties and early Forties? 18 A. I don't recall. 19 Q. Do you recall Dow using any consultants from 20 any of the schools of public health while you were - 21 A. I beg your pardon. 22 Q. Do you recall Dow using any consultants in 23 the area of health and safety from any of the schools 24 of public health while you were at Dow? 25 A. I don't recall any. 169 1 Q. Did you know Dr. Carl Nau, N-a-u? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. How did you know Dr. Nau? 4 A. Met him in a meeting. 5 Q. When you were just beginning your career at 6 Dow, you began to publish some of your findings, I 7 believe. Is that right? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Were you encouraged to publish your results 10 at Dow? Page 150 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. How were you encouraged to publish? 13 A. Executives of the company - particularly 14 Willard Dow - wanted it to be published. 15 Q. And who was Mr. Dow? 16 A. He was president of Dow Chemical Company. 17 Q. How is it that you understood that Mr. Dow 18 wanted this information published? 19 A. My understanding is that he is the 20 individual who initiated the creation of the Dow 21 Chemical research laboratory because he was concerned 22 about occupational health and product safety, as well. 23 Q. Did you ever try to publish any of your 24 findings at Dow and were prohibited from doing so? 25 A. No, sir. 170 1 Q. When articles that you were going to publish 2 were being considered for publications, who within Dow 3 would review those articles before being published? 4 MR. ALMQUIST: Object to the 5 question. It assumes somebody would 6 review it before he submitted it for 7 publication. 8 Q. I'll ask the question, Dr. Rowe. Did anyone 9 review your work prior to it being submitted to 10 publication at Dow? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. May I know who? 13 A. Well, our close colleagues in the 14 laboratory; if there was anything involving the legal Page 151 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 15 side of it, the legal department it would be passed 16 through; and the manufacturing operation product 17 manufacturing plant superintendent if it involves his 18 product. 19 Q. And I take it each one of those reviews 20 would generate comments to you, and then you would 21 make an election about incorporating those comments or 22 not? 23 A. I can't ever having - remember changing 24 anything unless it was a technicality. 25 Q. Did they just never make any changes in 171 1 substance - recommendations to you, that you can 2 recall? 3 A. No, except to compliment us on getting the 4 information out. 5 Q. What other companies do you recall in the 6 same time frame - the late Thirties, early Forties, 7 into the Fifties - doing the same thing, having a 8 toxicological laboratory and having published a great 9 deal of information about their work? 10 A. Dr. Smyth at Mellon Institute on behalf of 11 Carbide and Carbon published a certain amount, not as 12 much in the early days as they did later. 13 Q. If we talk about up until 1960, would you 14 know from your review of the literature who would have 15 generated the most information, comparing Dow and 16 Mellon and Du Pont? 17 A. I think I pub - we published more than Page 152 18 anyone. Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 19 Q. Would you publish your methods as well as 20 your results? 21 A. I don't know what you mean. 22 Q. When you would do a toxicological test and 23 publish the results would you tell the reader how you 24 did the test? 25 A. I believe those were - that was automatic in 172 1 the introduction as to what was done and how it was 2 done, as best we could describe it. 3 Q. So, if anyone wanted to do similar-type 4 toxicity testing of materials, right there in your 5 works were the means and the techniques to be used to 6 do the tests? 7 A. I would think so. 8 Q. And those were published in the open and 9 scientific literature for anyone to find who cared to 10 look? 11 A. Yes. 12 MR. HOBSON: I understand we're 13 out of tape; so, let's take a break. 14 MR. PIERCE: No. Let's -- If 15 we're out of tape, it's appropriate - 16 In accordance with the agreement, the 17 two hours are up for the afternoon 18 session; and we can continue tomorrow. 19 (REPORTER'S NOTE: AT 20 APPROXIMATELY 2:40 P.M., ON OCTOBER 1, 21 1992, THE DEPOSITION WAS RECESSED. Page 153 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 22 AT APPROXIMATELY 9:00 A.M. ON 23 OCTOBER 2, 1992, WITH ALL PARTIES 24 PRESENT, THE DEPOSITION RESUMED AS 25 FOLLOWS:) 173 1 RESUMPTION OF EXAMINATION BY MR. HOBSON: 2 Q. Good morning, Dr. Rowe. 3 A. Good morning. 4 Q. I've had a chance to look through some of 5 the documents that you brought yesterday, and I have a 6 few questions for you about the documents. 7 When you retired from Dow, sir, I take it 8 that some of the files that you had maintained at your 9 offices you kept with you after your retirement. 10 that correct? Is 11 A. Yes. 12 MR. PIERCE: Objection to form 13 of the question, as to whether you take 14 or not. 15 Q. Would you be kind enough to tell me, sir, 16 what documents you have at your home that came from 17 your work at Dow? 18 A. I went through what I had that - 19 MR. PIERCE: Excuse me. Could I 20 have a clarification on this question? 21 When you say that came from his work at 22 Dow, you mean his personal materials 23 that he may have collected or official 24 documents from Dow? I think that Page 154 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 25 question is ambiguous and vague, and I 174 1 object to it for those reasons. 2 A. I tried to keep a library. I have no 3 official documents from Dow. I have not even a 4 complete listing of publications. I have some of 5 them. Those that were even vaguely related to this 6 action I pulled out for reproduction for you. 7 Q. When you were still working at Dow and you 8 would generate correspondence, did you maintain any 9 kind of a chronological file of your correspondence as 10 opposed to a subject filing? 11 A. No. 12 Q. So, each bit of correspondence that you 13 would generate day to day would be filed by its 14 subject? 15 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the 16 form. 17 A. That was my general practice, yes. 18 Q. You say that you tried to maintain a 19 personal library while you were at Dow; is that right? 20 A. I beg your pardon. 21 Q. You said that you tried to maintain a 22 personal library while you were at Dow? Is that what 23 you said, sir? 24 A. I suppose you could call it that. 25 Q. What would you have included in your Page 155 175 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 1 personal library while you were at Dow? 2 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form 3 of the question. 4 A. Reprints of copies of talks that I gave, 5 talks and papers of other people that I thought might 6 be useful to me in the future. 7 Q. How did you have those reprints and talks 8 organized while you were at Dow, those that were in 9 your personal library? Were they by subject or some 10 other way? 11 A. General practice was by subject. 12 Q. Did you tend to have subjects that were 13 specific chemicals or specific substances or were they 14 broad categories like toxicology, industrial hygiene, 15 or did it include both? 16 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form 17 of the question. 18 A. It was some of each. 19 Q. Did you maintain any bound textbooks that 20 were yours personally while you were at Dow? 21 A. I don't remember whether they -- I had 22 access to the library. And at that time I probably 23 had a text of my own on Patty's Industrial Hyg iene and 24 Toxicology which was my personal copy. 25 Q. Would you recall which edition you had, sir, 176 1 As your personal copy? 2 A. At that time it was the first edition 3 Q. Do you still have your first edition? Page 156 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Do you have any other textbooks now that 6 were available to you while you were at Dow? 7 A. I don't recall. 8 Q. In going through some of the documents that 9 you brought yesterday I have found some I'd like to 10 ask you about. There's two pages here, Dr. Rowe, that 11 I can't connect to anything. 12 Can you tell me, sir, what they - what they 13 are and where they came from (tendering document)? 14 MR. PIERCE: Mr. Hobson, are you 15 marking this for identification? 16 MR. HOBSON: Well, I might. It 17 depends on what it is. I want to make 18 sure it really is something he brought, 19 though. 20 A. (Reviewing document) I cannot tell you 21 where I got that. 22 (By Mr. Hobson) 23 Q. What is it, sir? 24 A. It's a discussion of - of occupational 25 controls, T.L.V.'s, and the like. 177 1 Q. Can you pl ace it in time for us at all? 2 A. No, I can' t. 3 Q. Would you reca ll who was having the 4 discussion or - 5 A. I have no recollection of having put this in 6 my file. When I went through it, it looked like 7 something that might have some interest. So, like I Page 157 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 8 said, I pulled things like that out. 9 Q. Can you tell from where you had it filed 10 whether this is something you had while you were at 11 Dow? 12 A. I can't tell, no. 13 Q. Was it your practice after you left Dow to 14 add things to your files from time to time? 15 A. Yes (tendering document). 16 Q. Thank you. Here's another document, sir. 17 And I'd ask the same questions. Can you tell by 18 looking at this where it came from or what it is 19 (tendering document)? 20 MR. PIERCE: (Reviewing document) 21 MR. BLANKS: Don't you all have 22 your own stack of documents over there 23 that you can look at? 24 MR. PIERCE: Mr. Hobson, I notice 25 that this has a sticker for Plaintiffs' 178 1 Exhibit; but there's no number there. 2 MR. HOBSON: Yes, sir. We are 3 trying to identify documents with a 4 certain series that, if we can, will 5 include the date so that you can 6 organize documents chronologically. 7 That's why we haven't put a number on 8 it yet. 9 MR. PIERCE: Thank you (tendering 10 document to the witness). Page 158 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 11 A. (Reviewing document) Do you have a 12 question? 13 (By Mr. Hobson) 14 Q. I think we do. Can you recognize this 15 document, Dr. Rowe; or can you tell us anything about 16 it? 17 A. I can't tell you where or when it was 18 presented. It's obviously a draft of a presentation 19 that Dr. Schwetz was - made at some meeting. 20 Q. And who was the author, sir? 21 A. Dr. Schwetz. 22 Q. And what capacity did Dr. Schwetz have when 23 you knew him? 24 A. He was basically a teratologist. 25 Q. Who was his employer, sir? 179 1 A. Beg pardon? 2 Q. Who was his employer? 3 MR. PIERCE: At what point in 4 time? 5 A. He was a Dow employee in toxicology. 6 Q. Do you believe that this is a paper that was 7 likely drafted by this gentleman while he was a Dow 8 employee? 9 A. I'm quite certain it was. 10 MR. HOBSON: Perhaps Counsel could 11 indicate on that "Rowe 2" as the 12 exhibit number; or I will if you want 13 to pass it back. 14 MR. PIERCE: I don 't want to mess Page 159 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 15 up your system (tendering document to 16 Mr. Hobson). 17 MR. HOBSON: I t's not easy to 18 keep... 19 (PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT ROWE 2 20 WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION 21 PURPOSES. SAME WILL BE FOUND IN 22 THE EXHIBIT VOLUMES ATTENDANT TO 23 THIS DEPOSITION.) 24 (By Mr. Hobson) 25 Q. All right, sir. I've marked here as Rowe 2 180 1 Dr. Schwetz' paper; is that correct, sir? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And you found this paper by Dr. Swetz in 4 your files? 5 A. I found it in my category of general 6 toxicology. 7 Q. The first document I asked you about here 8 this morning I've now marked as Exhibit 1 and just 9 want to identify the fact that we did mark that 10 document as Exhibit 1. 11 MR. BLANKS: Why don't you make it 12 Exhibit 3, and we'll mark the notice as 13 Exhibit 1. 14 MR. HOBSON: Okay. Well, let me 15 have it back and I'll redo it. 16 MR. PIERCE: May I interject 17 something? How did you mark -- Page 160 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 18 Yesterday you marked some document. I 19 believe it was a C.V. of Dr. Rowe. 20 MR. HOBSON: Right. It has 141005 21 Rowe VK. 22 MR. PIERCE: I give up. 23 MR. HOBSON: Well, he was born in 24 1914. 25 MR. PIERCE: Oh , I see. 181 1 MR. HOBSON: It happens to be the 2 first date that appears on the 3 document. 4 (PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT ROWE 3 5 WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION 6 PURPOSES. SAME WILL BE FOUND IN 7 THE EXHIBIT VOLUMES ATTENDANT TO 8 THIS DEPOSITION.) 9 (By Mr. Hobson) 10 Q. Sir, we've marked as Rowe 3 the document I 11 questioned you about earlier. That's a document that 12 I think you told us some information about you 13 couldn't identify where it came from other than it was 14 in your files. There's a name that appears there on 15 the first page. Do you recognize the name at the 16 bottom of the first paragraph? 17 A. No, I do not. 18 Q. All right, sir. Thank you. Dr. Rowe, 19 here's another document that you brought yesterday. 20 And again I can't find a date on it; or for this one I 21 can't find the source, either. Could you look at Page 161 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 22 that, sir, and see if you could help me with either 23 one of those or both (tendering document)? 24 A. (Reviewing document) I can't tell you where 25 that was published. 182 1 Q. It appears that it could be a chapter from a 2 text. 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Could you tell us if that's what it was? 5 A. That would be my assumption (tendering 6 document). 7 (PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT ROWE 4 8 WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION 9 PURPOSES. SAME WILL BE FOUND IN 10 THE EXHIBIT VOLUMES ATTENDANT TO 11 THIS DEPOSITION.) 12 (By Mr. Hobson) 13 Q. Doctor, this exhibit that you just looked at 14 we've now put an exhibit sticker on it, Plaintiffs' 15 Exhibit Rowe 4. And it's Chapter 8, "Pharmacokinetic 16 Studies in Evaluation of the Toxicological and 17 Environmental Hazards of Chemicals." (Tendering 18 document) And that would be a document that you 19 brought as part of your response to the request; is 20 that right, sir? 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. If I could, sir, let me show you another 23 document which again I could not place in time and ask 24 you if you would look at that document and tell us Page 162 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 25 what it is, as best you can, sir (tendering 183 1 document). 2 A. (Reviewing document) This -- I cannot put a 3 time frame on it, either, at least not accurately. 4 Obviously this is an outline of a talk I was giving to 5 some group within Dow (tendering document). 6 Q. There are some what appears to be 7 handwritten notes or something. Can you tell us, 8 Dr. Rowe, if these two go together (tendering 9 document)? 10 MR. PIERCE: When you say "these 11 two," the document that Dr. Rowe just 12 reviewed? 13 MR. HOBSON: Yes. 14 MR. PIERCE: Because that's 15 unmarked right now. 16 MR. HOBSON: Right. I want to 17 know whether we need to put them 18 together and mark them as one or 19 two (tendering document to witness). 20 A. (Reviewing document) I do not believe that 21 these go together. 22 (By Mr. Hobson) 23 Q. All right, sir. 24 (PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT ROWE 5 25 WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION Page 163 184 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 1 PURPOSES. SAME WILL BE FOUND IN 2 THE EXHIBIT VOLUMES ATTENDANT TO 3 THIS DEPOSITION.) 4 (By Mr. Hobson) 5 Q. All right, sir. I have put a sticker on 6 this exhibit, Plaintiffs' Exhibit Rowe 5, which has a 7 heading, "Mission of Health and Environmental 8 Research." Sir, that's, I believe, the document that 9 you told us represented a presentation that you gave 10 sometime within Dow. Is that right? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. This presentation that's Rowe 5, can you 13 place that in a decade at all for us; or can you tell 14 us what job title you might have had at the time you 15 gave that, Dr. Rowe? 16 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form 17 of the question. 18 A. This would probably have been in the 19 mid-Eighties - or mid-Seventies. 20 Q. Thank you. 21 (PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT ROWE 6 22 WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION 23 PURPOSES. SAME WILL BE FOUND IN 24 THE EXHIBIT VOLUMES ATTENDANT TO 25 THIS DEPOSITION.) 185 1 (By Mr. Hobson) 2 Q. On the handwritten notes we've now put 3 sticker exhibit Rowe 6. Let me hand that back to you, Page 164 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 4 sir. Are those your notes? Is that your handwriting, 5 Dr. Rowe (tendering document)? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Can you tell us what this dealt with? What 8 does this mean to you, sir? 9 A. I don't know. 10 Q. Would you know if this was an outline for a 11 presentation or dealt with a paper you were going to 12 write, or can you tell us at all? 13 A. It -- It looks as though it was an outline I 14 used in making a presentation to a group that - I 15 don't know where. 16 Q. And since the last date at the top is 1975, 17 would it be fair to say that that was after 1975 you 18 gave this, or at least 1975 or later? 19 A. In that framework, yes. 20 Q. (Tendering document) Another document, sir, 21 that came yesterday from the attorneys -- I haven't 22 marked it yet because, again, I can't date it. 23 Could you look at that and tell us if you 24 can date it or place it anywhere, sir (tendering 25 document)? 186 1 A. (Reviewing document) 2 MR. PIERCE: You have a question, 3 Mr. Hobson? 4 MR. HOBSON: Yeah. I was waiting 5 for the answer. I'm sorry. 6 MR. PIERCE: If there's a question Page 165 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 7 pending, could you please read it 8 back (directed to the reporter)? 9 MR. HOBSON: I'll just ask another 10 one to save a little time. 11 (By Mr. Hobson) 12 Q. Can you place this document in time or tell 13 us what it is, Dr. Rowe? 14 A. This again would have been in the - in the 15 mid-Seventies. 16 Q. What kind of -- What was the purpose of the 17 document as best you recall? 18 A. It was obviously a - a draft of a speech 19 that Dr. Blair wished to make somewhere. I don't know 20 where. 21 Q. 22 A. 23 Q. 24 A. 25 Q. This was not your speech? No. Dr. Bl air's speech? Yes. There's handwriting on here. Can you tell 187 1 tell whose handwriting it is? 2 A. It looks like mine. 3 Q. Do you expect, then, that Dr. Blair gave you 4 his proposed speech and asked for your comments? 5 A. That would be my supposition. 6 Q. Let us put a stick on it, then, sir, if we 7 may, so as to make sure we have it identified. 8 (PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT ROWE 7 9 WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION 10 PURPOSES. SAME WILL BE FOUND IN Page 166 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 11 THE EXHIBIT VOLUMES ATTENDANT TO 12 THIS DEPOSITION.) 13 (By Mr. Hobson) 14 Q. We've marked as the document you've just 15 told us was a proposed presentation by Dr. Blair with 16 your handwritten notes on it as Rowe 7; is that right, 17 sir? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Thank you. Dr. Rowe, I have another 20 document I'd like for you to examine. I have done 21 some highlighting on this document which is mine; but 22 I'd like for you to identify this document for us, if 23 you could, please, sir. 24 A. (Reviewing documents) 25 MR. PIERCE: Do you have a 188 1 question, Mr. Hobson? 2 MR. HOBSON: Seem to be doing this 3 repeatedly. Yes, sir. 4 (By Mr. Hobson) 5 Q. I think the question on the floor was can 6 you identify this document for us. 7 A. It is a draft of a talk I gave. 8 Q. Can you place it in time, sir? 9 A. It, again, wou ld have been in the 10 mid-Seventies. 11 Q. Would you know where this talk was given, if 12 it was given? 13 A. I believe it was given in a symposium in Page 167 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 14 Midland. 15 Q. Would this have been a Dow symposium? 16 A. It was a Dow symposium, but there may well 17 have been others - other people present. 18 (tendering document). I don't know 19 (PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT ROWE 8 20 WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION 21 PURPOSES. SAME WILL BE FOUND IN 22 THE EXHIBIT VOLUMES ATTENDANT TO 23 THIS DEPOSITION.) 24 (By Mr. Hobson) 25 Q. All right, sir. I've now put "Exhibit 189 1 Rowe 8" on the paper that I think you said was given 2 in the Mid-Seventies at a Dow symposium; is that 3 right, sir (tendering document)? 4 A. (Reviewing document) This is the one that I 5 just looked at. 6 Q. Yes, sir. 7 A. Yes. Okay (tendering document) 8 (PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT 400600 DOW 9 WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION 10 PURPOSES. SAME WILL BE FOUND IN 11 THE EXHIBIT VOLUMES ATTENDANT TO 12 THIS DEPOSITION.) 13 (By Mr. Hobson) 14 Q. Sir, let me show you Exhibit - We've put 15 "400600 Dow" as the exhibit number. I'll ask you, 16 sir, if you can identify that for us, please 17 (tendering document). Page 168 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 18 MR. PIERCE: (Reviewing document) 19 Is this one of the documents that 20 Dr. Rowe provided? 21 MR. BLANKS: Th is entire stack is 22 of that set. 23 MR. PIERCE: (Tendering document 24 to the witness) 25 Q. I think the question is, can you identify 190 1 that for us, Dr. Rowe. 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. What is it, please? 4 A. It's a reprint of a publication, an article 5 entitled, "The Response Attending Exposure of 6 Laboratory Animals to Vapors of Methyl Bromide." 7 Q. This would be a reprint from the scientific 8 literature where it was published; is that right? 9 A. It's a reprint from The Journal of 10 Industrial Hygiene and Toxicology, Volume 22, No. 6, 11 June, 1940. 12 Q. Do you know The Journal of Industrial 13 Hyg iene and Toxicology where this article was 14 published? 15 A. Would you repeat, please. 16 Q. Yes, sir. Do you know of this journal where 17 this article was published? 18 A. Do -- I don't -- I guess I don't understand 19 yet what you're -20 Q. Probably just too simple a question, Page 169 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 21 Dr. Rowe. I'm just trying to find if you, in fact, do 22 know about this journal where you published your 23 article. 24 A. Oh. Yes. 25 Q. Would you tell us what this journal is, or 191 1 what it was in 1940? 2 A. It's just an ordinary scientific pub 3 journal that publishes scientific papers. 4 Q. Was there any affiliation of this journal 5 with any group? 6 A. I don't believe so. It may -- It possibly 7 may have been associated with -- I'm not aware of 8 that. 9 Q. I think you've published in this journal on 10 more than just this one occasion, have you not? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Did you pick the journals that you submitted 13 your publications to in this time period of this first 14 exhibit here we're talking about of your publications? 15 A. At that date I probably did not. 16 Q. Who would have been selecting the journals 17 for publication in 1940? 18 A. I would expect Dr. Irish. 19 Q. Because you selected this journal to publish 20 in in 1940, do you think it likely that you had this 21 journal in your library at Dow? 22 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form 23 of the question. The witness has 24 testified that he did not pick any Page 170 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 25 journal but that Dr. Irish did. 192 1 A. Yes, we had this journal. 2 Q. Do you recall how much before 1940 you would 3 have had this journal at Dow? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Which volume of the journal was this 1940 6 article published in? 7 A. Volume 22. 8 Q. Is it your experience that theusual 9 practice of these scientific publications is that they 10 change the volume number each year? 11 A. Not necessarily. 12 Q. Can you tell us approximately when this 13 journal began its publications? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Is this a journal that you in your work at 16 Dow relied upon for information about toxicology? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Is that article published in 1940 the same 19 reference here, then, that's number one in your 20 bibliography (tendering document)? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And I take it since it's number one, that's 23 your first scientific publication that you ever had 24 published. 25 A. Yes. Page 171 193 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 1 Q. Were there scientific publications coming 2 from other Dow scientists in the area of toxicology 3 that predated your 1940 article with Dr. Irish and 4 others, or would you know? 5 A. I don't know. 6 Q. Could this very well be, then, the first 7 scientific article on toxicology published at Dow, or 8 do you know? 9 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form 10 of the question. 11 A. I don't know. 12 Q. What kinds of tests in forms of category 13 were you reporting on here in 1940 for methyl bromide? 14 A. The results of single vapor exposures, 15 repeated vapor exposures. (Reviewing document) 16 That's all. 17 Q. Would you categorize the tests that were 18 done reported here in this 1940 article as acute or 19 short-term testing? 20 A. Both. 21 Q. And that would be something different than 22 what would ordinarily be called "chronic" or more 23 long-range type testing; would that be right? 24 A. Not necessarily. 25 Q. How did the two overlap? 1 A. Basically in concept. 2 Q. Would you explain that, please. Page 172 194 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 3 A. Acute exposures are generally considered to 4 be single exposures. Chronic exposures can vary 5 anywhere from repeated - short-term repeated exposures 6 to long-term repeated exposures. 7 Q. And to qualify as chronic, do you have some 8 length of time that you continue the repeated 9 exposures in your definitions? 10 A. No. Really, one should not set a specific 11 time period for chronic -- "Chronic" is a very poor 12 word. It should be "repeated exposures over a 13 particular duration." 14 Q. Do you use the term "subacute" in 15 categorizing toxicity testing? 16 A. At some stages, yes. 17 Q. How would you use the term "subacute"? 18 A. Short-term repeated exposures. 19 Q. And what would be the proper category, then, 20 for long-term repeated exposures, if there is one? 21 A. Simply describing the duration of exposure 22 period. 23 Q. Are you aware of any reported associations 24 between methyl bromide and cancer today? 25 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form 195 1 of the question. Objection to the 2 relevancy of this matter. 3 Go ahead and answer. 4 A. Would you repeat the question, please. 5 Q. Yes, sir. I'd like to know if you're now 6 aware of any reports of connection between methyl Page 173 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 7 bromide and cancer. 8 A. No. 9 (PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT 421200 DOW 10 (JIHT) WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION 11 PURPOSES. SAME WILL BE FOUND IN 12 THE EXHIBIT VOLUMES ATTENDANT TO 13 THIS DEPOSITION.) 14 (By Mr. Hobson) 15 Q. Another document that I believe you brought 16 yesterday, Dr. Rowe, we've marked as Exhibit 421200 17 DOW and in parentheses "JIHT," end parentheses 18 (tendering document). And I wonder, sir, is that 19 another one of the articles that you published in the 20 scientific literature while you were an employee of 21 Dow (tendering document)? 22 A. (Reviewing document) Yes. 23 Q. On the front page of that document there's a 24 handwritten number. 25 right, sir? I believe it's "121"; is that 196 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Would you have any recollection of what that 3 means or why it's there? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. What is it, sir? 6 A. That is a number that our toxicology file 7 room used to designate different publications that 8 were filed by - by number. In other words, this was 9 the hundred and twenty-first publication that was Page 174 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 10 filed in that compilation. 11 Q. I'm not sure I understand what the 12 compilation consisted of. Would you - 13 A. It was a file of publications by Dow people. 14 Q. Were all of these publications in this file 15 in the medical and scientific literature, or were 16 these internal to Dow, as well? 17 A. I don't know. 18 Q. Did the compilation have a name? 19 A. Not that I know of. 20 Q. And you say this was in a library. Was this 21 the library that you had at the biochemical research 22 laboratory, or was this the bigger library you told us 23 about that was available at Midland? 24 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form 25 of the question; mischaracterization of 197 1 the previous statement of the witness 2 in use of terminology he did not use 3 and that it's compound. 4 A. This was in the biochemical research 5 laboratory. This was not designated -- This 6 designation has no reference to the general large 7 library - company library. 8 (PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT 480621 DOW 9 WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION 10 PURPOSES. SAME WILL BE FOUND IN 11 THE EXHIBIT VOLUMES ATTENDANT TO 12 THIS DEPOSITION.) 13 (By Mr. Hobson) Page 175 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 14 Q. Sir, I have another document that, I 15 believe, you brought yesterday. We've put Exhibit 16 Sticker on it 480621 DOW. And I would ask you, sir, 17 if you could look at that and tell us if you can 18 identify it (tendering document). 19 A. (Reviewing document) Yes. 20 Q. What is it, please? 21 A. It's a reprint of an article entitled, 22 "Toxicological Studies on Certain Commercial 23 Silicones." 24 Q. And you are one of the authors of that? 25 A. Yes. 198 1 Q. I noticed that the cover page of this 2 document differs from the previous one we talked 3 about. Can you tell me if there's any significance to 4 the cover page of this document (indicating document)? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. What is that, sir? 7 A. The indication that reprints were purchased 8 by the Dow Corning Corporation for their distribution. 9 Q. What's the Dow Corning Corporation, as you 10 understand it? 11 A. It's a separate corporation called "Dow 12 Corning." 13 Q. Did you do any work that involved the Dow 14 Corning Corporation or its activities? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Was that why you were at Dow? Page 176 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And your employer, now, was Dow Chemical 19 Company? 20 A. Right. 21 Q. Would you tell me about how you did your 22 work that involved the Dow - I'm sorry. I can't see. 23 Is it "Corning Company"? 24 A. We did it on a work order from them. 25 Q. They were essentially purchasing your 199 1 services? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And what kind of services would Dow Corning 4 have been buying from Dow Chemical? 5 A. Well, Dow Corning did not have any facility 6 at that time for this sort of work. And inasmuch as 7 it was owned in part by Dow Chemical, our services 8 were made available to them on an as-needed basis. 9 Q. Can you remember what time period Dow 10 Chemical would have been selling services to Dow 11 Corning? 12 A. It would have been at the - at the very 13 inception or creation of the Dow Corning corporation 14 and for a few years after that. I can't tell you how 15 many. 16 Q. Up here at the top of this document that 17 we've been examining that dealt with Dow Corning, 18 there's a number that's been stamped on it. 19 Do you know what that number represents, 20 Dr. Rowe? Page 177 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 21 A. I have no knowledge. 22 Q. That number was there in your file? 23 A. I presume so. 24 Q. Okay. Were there other business entities 25 besides Dow Corning that Dow Chemical provided 200 1 toxicity testing services to? 2 A. Not that I can recollect. 3 Q. Are you aware of any kinds of services 4 besides toxicology - toxicological services that the 5 biochemical research laboratory provided to any other 6 business entities besides Dow Corning? 7 A. I don't know. 8 Q. Dr. Rowe, have you ever heard of a company 9 called "Dowell"? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. In what context have you heard of that 12 company, sir? 13 A. It was a subsidiary company of Dow. 14 Q. Of Dow Chemical Company, - 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. -- as you understand it? 17 A. It was a subsidiary of Dow Chemical. 18 Q. Did you provide toxicity testing services 19 for subsidiary companies at the biochemical research 20 laboratory? 21 A. On occasion. 22 Q. And I take it if -- Would it be correct, 23 sir, then, that if it was a subsidiary company, you Page 178 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 24 would not be selling those services? 25 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form 201 1 of the question. 2 A. I guess I don't understand your question. 3 Q. Well, I'm a bit confused. I asked you 4 earlier if you sold any services to any other business 5 entity besides Dow Corning, and you said that you 6 couldn't recall any. And now I've asked about Dowell, 7 and you say you've provided some services to them. 8 I'm wondering if they were sold to Dowell. 9 A. Well, Dowell is a part of Dow Chemical 10 Company. And when we did work for a - any subsidiary, 11 it was on a work order basis; and they would reimburse 12 us for that just on an accounting basis. 13 Q. Were there other subsidiaries of Dow 14 Chemical Company that you recall that you provided 15 services to at the biochemical research laboratory? 16 A. I don't recall any. 17 Q. Do you understand that Dowell - part of its 18 business involved doing work in the oil patch? 19 A. Do I understand what -20 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form 21 of the question. 22 Q. Do you understand that a part of Dowell's 23 business was providing services in the oil patch? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Would that include drilling muds, to your Page 179 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 202 1 knowledge? 2 A. I don't know. 3 Q. Has any of the work that you've been 4 involved with at Dow from a toxicological standpoint 5 dealt with drilling muds or their constituents, that 6 you're aware of? 7 A. I don't recollect. 8 (PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT 481100 DOW 9 (JIHT) WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION 10 PURPOSES. SAME WILL BE FOUND IN 11 THE EXHIBIT VOLUMES ATTENDANT TO 12 THIS DEPOSITION.) 13 (By Mr. Hobson) 14 Q. Let me show you another exhibit, if I could, 15 Dr. Rowe. It's 481100 DOW (JIHT). 16 A. (Reviewing document) 17 Q. Do you recognize this document, sir? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. What is it, please? 20 A. The title is "Toxicol ogical Studies on 21 Certain Commercial Silicones and Hydrolyzable Silane 22 Intermediates." 23 Q. And you're one of the authors? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And this is a reprint of its publication in 1 the scientific literature; is that right? 2 A. Yes. Page 180 203 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 3 Q. On the first page of the document - not the 4 page you're looking at, but the blank page that 5 precedes the one you're looking at - I see another 6 penciled number there. Do you see it toward the top? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And what number is it? I can't see it from 9 here. 10 A. One two four. 11 Q. Is that the same pencil numbering system 12 that you told us about a few moments ago with another 13 document where your library kept track of the 14 reprints? 15 A. I'm quite sure it is. 16 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form 17 and to the characterization of the 18 previous testimony. 19 But go ahead and answer. 20 Q. I'm sorry, sir. I need your answer. 21 A. I'm quite sure it is. 22 Q. The previous document that - that we have 23 here - 421200 DOW (JIHT), had "121" on it. Are those 24 filed chronologically or with time by number? 25 A. Generally speaking, but I can't vouch for 204 1 that being - always being the case because this was 2 clerical work (tendering document). 3 Q. The document that has "121" on it was 4 published in 1942, and the document that has "124" on 5 it was published in 1948. Would that indicate to you, Page 181 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 6 sir, that if they followed the system, they that you 7 understood was in place, that there would have been 8 two publications in between these that were kept in 9 the Dow files? 10 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the 11 form. 12 A. I don't know. 13 MR. PIERCE: You're asking for 14 sheer speculation but... 15 Q. Was there a list kept that told you what 16 Document No. 124 was or what Document No. 121 was? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. What would you call that list, sir, if we 19 to describe it? 20 A. I can't tell you whether it was a list. It 21 was an open folder with strips that were replaceable 22 in it with numbers on them and the titles on it. It 23 was not a compilation of such as you're looking at 24 there. 25 MR. ALMQUIST: Before we go on to 205 1 the next one -- We've been at this 2 an hour now. I think we might want to 3 take a 15-minute break right now. 4 MR. HOBSON: Okay. 5 (AT THIS TIME A BRIEF RECESS WAS 6 TAKEN, AND THE PROCEEDINGS THEREAFTER 7 RESUMED AS FOLLOWS:) 8 (By Mr. Hobson) 9 Q. Dr. Rowe, we'll begin again, if we could. Page 182 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 10 Dr. Rowe have you heard the term "central 11 research index" at Dow? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. What is the central research index, as you 14 understand it, sir? 15 A. It was a repository for reports and 16 publications and the like. 17 Q. What is your understanding of what went into 18 the central research index? 19 A. I really don't recall what all went in 20 there. 21 Q. Did some of your work at the biochemical 22 research laboratories go into the central research 23 index? 24 A. I believe so. 25 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the 206 1 form. 2 Q. I'm sorry. I didn't hear your answer, sir. 3 A. I believe so. 4 Q. What kinds of things do you remember from 5 the biochemical research laboratory going into the 6 central research index? 7 A. Reports. 8 Q. Any particular kinds of reports or all 9 reports? Can you give me a definition of that? 10 A. I -- I don't recollect what criteria we even 11 used; but most all reports that were written and 12 circulated, a copy was put in the central file. Page 183 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 13 Q. Where was the central research index kept, 14 sir? 15 A. I don't remember. 16 Q. Were there other research indexes besides 17 the central research index? I've seen reference to a 18 western research index. 19 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form 20 of the question, if there is one. 21 A. I don't know. 22 Q. Would you, sir, have had access to the 23 central research index? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Was there a listing somewhere of what was in 207 1 the central research index, that you recall? 2 A. I don't know. 3 Q. Who maintained the central research index? 4 A. I don't know. 5 Q. Would you know which grouping within the 6 company maintained the central research index? 7 A. No. 8 Q. If you wanted access to something in the 9 central research index, how would you go about getting 10 it, sir? 11 A. I'd have probably asked my secretary to get 12 it for me. 13 Q. And where she went to get it, you would not 14 know? 15 A. No. I do not know. 16 (PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT 511100 DOW Page 184 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 17 WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION 18 PURPOSES. SAME WILL BE FOUND IN 19 THE EXHIBIT VOLUMES ATTENDANT TO 20 THIS DEPOSITION.) 21 (By Mr. Hobson) 22 Q. Let me show you, sir, what we've marked as 23 Exhibit 511100 DOW and ask you if you can identify 24 that, please, sir (tendering document). 25 A. (Reviewing document) Yes. 208 1 Q. What is it, sir? 2 A. It's a reprint entitled, "Vapor Toxicity of 3 Trichloroethylene Determined by Experiments on 4 Laboratory Animals." 5 Q. It's a paper that you were one of the 6 authors on? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And this came from your files that you've 9 been keeping at your home? 10 A. I beg your pardon. 11 Q. This came from your files that you've been 12 keeping at your home? 13 A. Yes. 14 (PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT 520700 DOW 15 WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION 16 PURPOSES. SAME WILL BE FOUND IN 17 THE EXHIBIT VOLUMES ATTENDANT TO 18 THIS DEPOSITION.) 19 (By Mr. Hobson) Page 185 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 20 Q. Let me show you, sir, what we've marked as 21 Exhibit 520700 DOW and ask you if you can identify 22 this document (tendering document). 23 A. (Reviewing document) Yes. 24 Q. What is it, sir? 25 A. Vapor toxicity of -- It's a reprint of an 209 1 article entitled, "Vapor Toxicity of Carbon 2 Tetrachloride Determined by Experiments on Laboratory 3 Animals." 4 Q. And are you one of the authors of that 5 article? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And this is one of the documents that you've 8 brought with you to the deposition from your files you 9 keep at home? 10 A. Yes. 11 (PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT 551000 FDCLJ 12 WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION 13 PURPOSES. SAME WILL BE FOUND IN 14 THE EXHIBIT VOLUMES ATTENDANT TO 15 THIS DEPOSITION.) 16 (By Mr. Hobson) 17 Q. Let me hand you a document, sir, that we've 18 put a sticker on. It's Exhibit 551000 FDCLJ and ask 19 you if you can identify that, please (tendering 20 document). 21 A. (Reviewing document) Yes. 22 Q. And what is it, sir? 23 A. It's a reprint of an article entitled, Page 186 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 24 "Procedures for the Appraisal of the Toxicity of 25 Chemicals in Foods, Drugs and Cosmetics." 210 1 Q. You brought this to the deposition from your 2 files, sir, that you've kept at your home; is that 3 right? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. You're not one of the authors of this 6 document, are you, sir? 7 A. No, sir. 8 Q. Could you recall how you came into 9 possession of this document? 10 A. I -- I don't recall. 11 Q. Is this a document that you had while you 12 were a Dow employee? 13 A. Yes, yes. 14 Q. Thank you, sir. 15 (PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT 560425 CARB 16 WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION 17 PURPOSES. SAME WILL BE FOUND IN 18 THE EXHIBIT VOLUMES ATTENDANT TO 19 THIS DEPOSITION.) 20 (By Mr. Hobson) 21 Q. Let me show you Document 560425 CARB and ask 22 you if you can identify that document, sir. 23 MR. PIERCE: (Reviewing document) 24 Mr. Hobson, there are some 25 markings on this document that Page 187 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 211 1 obviously were not there when provided 2 to you. You want to identify these for 3 the record, please? 4 MR. BLANKS: Sure. They're 5 obvious. We'll just agree that the 6 markings are obvious and they weren't 7 there when it was provided. The blue 8 highlighting on the document was not 9 there when you gave it to us. And that 10 will be the case on all of them where 11 we've put markings on them. And we'll 12 stipulate to that right now. 13 MR. PIERCE: The difficulty, 14 Mr. Blanks, is that, of course, there 15 will be copies made of this; and I 16 don't know -- If the blue shows up on 17 those copies, all we will see is an 18 underlining. 19 MR. HOBSON: It won't show up. 20 MR. PIERCE: It will not show up? 21 MR. HOBSON: On the copies, no. 22 And by the way, if anyone has any 23 concerns that the highlighting might 24 show up, I think you all have other 25 copies. If you want to substitute them 212 1 with the same exhibit sticker, that's Page 188 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 2 fine with me. 3 (By Mr. Hobson) 4 Q. I'm sorry. Dr. Rowe? 5 A. Yes? 6 Q. Would you identify that for us, please, 7 sir. 8 A. This is a reprint of an article entitled, 9 "The Interpretation of Threshold Limits for 10 Inhalation of Chemical Substances, Excluding Mineral 11 Dusts, with Recommendations for Improvement." 12 Q. And that's a document that you brought to 13 the deposition from your files kept at your home? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Do you recall how you came into possession 16 of this document? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Is this a document that you had while you 19 were a Dow employee? 20 A. I'm sure -- Yes. 21 Q. Is this the Dr. Smyth that you mentioned 22 yesterday that, I think, was associated with Mellon? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Do you recall using this document any way in 25 your work at Dow, Dr. Rowe? 213 1 A. I don't recall any specifics. 2 Q. Thank you, sir. 3 (PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT 560425 DOW 4 WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION 5 PURPOSES. SAME WILL BE FOUND IN Page 189 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 6 THE EXHIBIT VOLUMES ATTENDANT TO 7 THIS DEPOSITION.) 8 (By Mr. Hobson) 9 Q. Let me show you a document that's marked 10 560425 DOW and ask if you can identify that, please, 11 sir (tendering document). 12 A. (Reviewing document) Yes. 13 Q. What is it, sir? 14 A. It's a copy of an article entitled, 15 "Toxicological Information Useful for Industrial 16 Hyg iene Purposes with Emphasis on Topical Contact." 17 Q. Are you the author of that paper, sir? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. In what context was it written, please? 20 A. It was written for a presentation at the 21 American Industrial Hygiene Association Annual 22 Meeting, April 25th, 1956. 23 Q. And was it delivered there - 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. -- in the format that's set out here in the 214 1 paper? This is the speech you gave? 2 A. To the best of my knowledge. 3 Q. I mean, you would typically present the text 4 as it's written to the group when you delivered the 5 speech. Is that right? 6 MR. PIERCE: Objection to form 7 of the question. 8 A. Yes. Page 190 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 9 Q. Looking back for a moment, sir, in 560425 10 CARB, the paper that we previously spoke of by 11 Dr. Henry Smyth, Jr., it says "Presented as part of 12 the Donald E. Cummings Memorial Lecture at 13 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, April 25th, 1956, before 14 The American Industrial Hygiene Association." 15 What is that lecture, sir, as best you 16 understand? 17 A. It's -- It's an award presented each year, 18 or almost every year, by the American Industrial 19 Hyg iene Association, recognizing an individual's 20 contributions to the field. 21 Q. And is it your understanding, then, that 22 this text by Dr. Smyth is what was presented at that 23 lecture in 1956 at the American Industrial Hygiene 24 Association? 25 A. I cannot attest to that. 215 1 Q. Is that what it indicates to you on the face 2 of the document? 3 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the 4 form. The witness has answered the 5 question. The document speaks for 6 itself. 7 A. I do not know whether it was presented in 8 its entirety. It would have been difficult, I think. 9 Q. Would you recall, sir, if you attended the 10 American Industrial Hygiene Association meeting in 11 Philadelphia in 1956? 12 A. I don't recall. Page 191 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 13 Q. Did you usually attend the Cummings 14 Lectures - 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. -- when you went to the association 17 meetings? 18 A. Yes, I did. 19 Q. Did those meetings tend to be - those 20 lectures tend to be well attended? 21 MR. PIERCE: Objection to form 22 of the question. It's vague and 23 ambiguous. 24 A. Would you restate your question, please. 25 Q. Yes, sir. When the American Industrial 216 1 Hyg iene Association would meet and the Cummings 2 Lecture would be presented, was it well attended, as 3 you observed? 4 A. I -- In my opinion, yes. 5 Q. Do you have a recollection of Dr. Smyth 6 making this lecture - the Cummings Lecture - in 1956 7 in Philadelphia? 8 A. I don't recall it specifically. 9 (PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT 560800 DOW 10 WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION 11 PURPOSES. SAME WILL BE FOUND IN 12 THE EXHIBIT VOLUMES ATTENDANT TO 13 THIS DEPOSITION.) 14 (By Mr. Hobson) 15 Q. Let me hand you, sir, what's been marked as Page 192 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 16 560800 DOW (AMA-AIH) and ask you if you can identify 17 that, please (tendering document). 18 A. (Reviewing document) Yes. 19 Q. What is it, sir? 20 A. It's a reprint of an article entitled, 21 "Toxicity of Paradichlorobenzene." 22 Q. Are you one of the authors of this paper? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Thank you. I don't recall that we talked 25 about this name, although I may have forgotten. 217 1 F. Oyen, O-y-e-n. 2 please, sir? Could you tell us who that is, 3 A. Mr. Oyen was a pathologist. 4 Q. An employee of Dow, I assume. 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Would you know if he's still living? 7 A. No. He is not living. 8 Q. Thank you. 9 (PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT 581000 DOW 10 (AIHAJ) WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION 11 PURPOSES. SAME WILL BE FOUND IN 12 THE EXHIBIT VOLUMES ATTENDANT TO 13 THIS DEPOSITION.) 14 (By Mr. Hobson) 15 Q. Let me show you Exhibit 581000 DOW (AIHAJ) 16 and ask you if you can identify that, sir (tendering 17 document). 18 A. (Reviewing document) Yes. 19 Q. What is it, please, sir? Page 193 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 20 A. It's a reprint of an article entitled, 21 "Toxicity of 1,1,1-Trichloroethane as Determined on 22 Laboratory Animals and Human Subjects." 23 Q. And is that an article that you're a 24 coauthor on? 25 A. Yes. 218 1 Q. Thank you. Dr. Rowe, if I could, I want to 2 return to the previous article I asked you about, 3 560800 DOW (AMA-AIH) (tendering document). The 4 journal that this article is published in, could you 5 identify that for us, please, sir? 6 A. (Reviewing document) It's a reprint from 7 the A.M.A. Archives of Industrial Health. 8 Q. Are you familiar with that journal? 9 A. We used to publish in it. 10 Q. The A.M.A.: that's the American Medical 11 Association? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Are you familiar with the Journal of the 14 American Medical Association, as well? 15 A. Vaguely (tendering document). 16 Q. There's a number right here that is not real 17 legible on the side of the document. Can you tell us 18 what that number is, sir (tendering document)? 19 A. I don't know. 20 Q. Do you know what it symbolizes? It seems to 21 be in a different format than the others I asked you 22 about. Page 194 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 23 A. That's why I don't recognize it. 24 (PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT 561000 DOW 25 (AMA-AIH) WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION 219 1 PURPOSES. SAME WILL BE FOUND IN 2 THE EXHIBIT VOLUMES ATTENDANT TO 3 THIS DEPOSITION.) 4 (By Mr. Hobson) 5 Q. Let me show you the next article here marked 6 561000 DOW (AMA-AIH) and ask you, sir, if you can 7 identify that document for us (tendering document). 8 MR. PIERCE: (Reviewing document) 9 There's a stick-on on the last 10 page of this article which I assume is 11 yours, Mr. Hobson. 12 MR. HOBSON: That's right. We'll 13 take that off before it gets copied. 14 It was just a reference note, but 15 that -- If you want to leave it there, 16 it will help Dr. Rowe find the question 17 I want to ask. 18 MR. PIERCE: Fine (tendering 19 document to witness) 20 A. (Reviewing document) Yes? 21 Q. What is that article, sir? 22 A. It's a reprint of an article entitled, 23 "Toxicological Studies of Certain Alkylated Benzenes 24 and Benzene." 25 Q. And you're one of the authors on that Page 195 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 220 1 article, are you? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Who is the lead author on that article, sir? 4 A. It says Mr. Mark - M. A. Wolf. 5 Q. And that's -- One of the gentlemen you told 6 us about yesterday, I believe, was Mark Wolf, who was 7 a Dow employee? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. The bibliography that's in the back of this 10 particular article, sir, I asked you some questions 11 yesterday about the Toxicological Reviews of the 12 American Petroleum Institute. And I happened to find 13 here that some of those are referenced. 14 Do you see the reference there where I've 15 put the little - 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. -- sticky? When you referenced an article 18 like that in a publication that you were a coauthor 19 on, would that indicate that you had access to that 20 article and reviewed it in preparing this article? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Thank you. 23 (PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT 590425 DOW 24 WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION 25 PURPOSES. SAME WILL BE FOUND IN 221 1 THE EXHIBIT VOLUMES ATTENDANT TO Page 196 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 2 THIS DEPOSITION.) 3 (By Mr. Hobson) 4 Q. Let me hand you, sir, Exhibit 590425 DOW and 5 ask you if you can identify it. Again, we have some 6 highlighting on there which we have added. 7 A. (Reviewing document) Yes. 8 Q. What is it, please, sir? 9 A. It's a reprint entitled, "Toxicological 10 Basis of Threshold Limit Values: 2. Pathological and 11 Biochemical Criteria." 12 Q. Are you an author on this article? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. All right, sir. Thank you. 15 (PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT 600000 DOW 16 WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION 17 PURPOSES. SAME WILL BE FOUND IN 18 THE EXHIBIT VOLUMES ATTENDANT TO 19 THIS DEPOSITION.) 20 (By Mr. Hobson) 21 Q. Let me hand you what we've marked as 22 Exhibit 600000 DOW and ask you if you can identify 23 that, sir (tendering document). 24 MR. PIERCE: (Reviewing document) 25 MR. HOBSON: And, again, the 222 1 highlighting is mine. 2 MR. PIERCE: There is highligting 3 on this one, also? 4 MR. HOBSON: In a few places. Page 197 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 5 A. (Reviewing document) Yes. 6 Q. What is that item, please, sir? 7 A. It's a copy of a symposium. It's entitled, 8 "Symposium on Toxicology." 9 Q. And can you tell us where this symposium was 10 presented? 11 A. This symposium, as I recollect, was 12 presented in Houston. 13 Q. And who presented it, please, sir? Was 14 there a company sponsor, or was this a Dow symposium? 15 A. This was a Dow symposium. And as I 16 recollect, Texas management had invited other people 17 from outside of Dow to attend it. 18 Q. When you say "Texas management," who do you 19 mean there, sir? 20 A. I'm thinking particularly of Mr. Beutel. 21 Q. And who is Mr. Beutel? 22 A. He was general manager of the Texas 23 division. 24 Q. Of Dow Chemical Company? 25 A. Yes. 223 1 Q. Did this symposium actually get held, to 2 your knowledge? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. You were there and were a presenter? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Who else attended who was not a Dow 7 employee; can you recall? 8 A. I don't recall. Page 198 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 9 Q. Can you recall approximately how many people 10 were in attendance at that symposium? 11 A. I don't know how many there were there. 12 Q. And would it -- Can you categorize it at 13 all? Was it more than a hundred? 14 A. It would be up in that neighborhood 15 somewhe re. 16 Q. Do you remember where in Houston it was 17 held? 18 A. I can't tell you where it was. 19 Q. Some meetings are held at the Shamrock 20 Hilton, the old Shamrock Hilton or Shamrock Hotel 21 Southwest Houston. Could that have been it? 22 A. I don't know. 23 Q. The presenters at this symposium, were they 24 all Dow employees? 25 A. May I refer to the -- 224 1 Q. Yes, sir. Here's the contents page 2 (tendering document). 3 A. Yes (tendering document). 4 Q. Were all of the presenters from Dow in 5 Midland, or were there some Dow employees from other 6 locations? 7 A. These were all Midland people. 8 Q. You say that there were people who were not 9 Dow employees who were invited to attend? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Did some actually attend who were not Dow Page 199 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 12 employees? 13 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the 14 form; asked and answered several 15 times. 16 A. I presume so. 17 Q. Would you recall who was responsible for 18 sending out invitations to the meeting - the 19 symposium? 20 A. They were sent at the instigation of 21 Mr. Beutel. That's all I can tell you. 22 Q. The papers that are listed here in the 23 exhibit, is this the content of what was actually 24 presented at the symposium? 25 A. Best of my knowledge. 225 1 Q. Would you recall if Jim Hammond attended 2 this meeting? 3 A. I don't recall. 4 (PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT 601200 DOW 5 (I&EC) WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION 6 PURPOSES. SAME WILL BE FOUND IN 7 THE EXHIBIT VOLUMES ATTENDANT TO 8 THIS DEPOSITION.) 9 (By Mr. Hobson) 10 Q. Let me hand you, sir, Exhibit 601200 DOW 11 (I&EC) and ask you if you can identify that for us, 12 please. 13 A. (Reviewing document) Yes. 14 Q. What is it, please, sir? 15 A. It's a reprint of an article entitled, Page 200 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 16 "Evaluating the Industrial Hazards of New Chemicals." 17 Q. Are you one of the authors of that? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. The cover page again seems to be different 20 from some of the other exhibits we've talked about. 21 Is there a reason for the cover page being different? 22 A. Well, it looks like it may have been 23 reprinted at the request of somebody. "Industrial and 24 Eng ineering Chemistry," I believe, I.E.C. would stand 25 for. It was presented at the National Safety Congress 226 1 in Chicago. I don't know. 2 Q. Did you present the paper at the National 3 Safety Congress? 4 A. Dr. Olson presented that paper. 5 Q. At the National Safety Congress? 6 A. Pardon? 7 Q. He did present it at the National Safety 8 Congress? 9 A. To the best of my recollection. 10 Q. Do you know this organization, Industrial 11 and Engineering Chemistry? 12 A. Well, that's a -- That's a journal. I 13 believe it's one of the many journals put out by the 14 A.C.S. 15 Q. American Chemical Socie ty? 16 A. Yes. 17 (PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT 611000 DOW 18 (AIHAJ) WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION Page 201 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 19 PURPOSES. SAME WILL BE FOUND IN 20 THE EXHIBIT VOLUMES ATTENDANT TO 21 THIS DEPOSITION.) 22 (By Mr. Hobson) 23 Q. Now, let me show you Exhibit 611000 DOW 24 (AIHAJ) and ask you if you can identify that, please, 25 sir (tendering document). 227 1 A. (Reviewing document) Yes. 2 Q. What is it, please, sir? 3 A. It's a reprint of an article entitled, "The 4 Toxicity of Vinyl Chloride as Determined by Repeated 5 Exposure of Laboratory Animals." 6 Q. Are you one of the authors of that paper, 7 sir? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Thank you. 10 (PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT 611000 DOW 11 (RSCH) WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION 12 PURPOSES. SAME WILL BE FOUND IN 13 THE EXHIBIT VOLUMES ATTENDANT TO 14 THIS DEPOSITION.) 15 (By Mr. Hobson) 16 Q. Let me show you Exhibit 611000 DOW (RSCH) 17 and ask you if you could identify that, sir. 18 MR. HOBSON: The highlighting is 19 mine. 20 MR. PIERCE: Thank you, 21 Mr. Hobson. 22 A. (Reviewing document) Yes. Page 202 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 23 (By Mr. Hobson) 24 Q. What is it, please, sir? 25 A. It's a reprint of an article entitled, 228 1 "Evaluating the Toxicity and Hazards of Chemicals." 2 Q. And are you one of the authors? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. I notice the last item in the bibliography 5 is a text by von Oettingen, I believe, if I recall 6 right. Do you see it there, sir, a text called 7 "Poisoning"? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Is that a text that you recall being in 10 Dow's library? 11 A. I don't recall it. 12 Q. If it's referenced there in your 13 bibliography, is it a reference that at least you and 14 your co-workers were aware of and utilized? 15 A. It probably was. I just don't recall it. 16 Q. Thank you, sir. 17 (PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT 670300 USSR 18 WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION 19 PURPOSES. SAME WILL BE FOUND IN 20 THE EXHIBIT VOLUMES ATTENDANT TO 21 THIS DEPOSITION.) 22 (By Mr. Hobson) 23 Q. Let me show you, sir, a document that we 24 have marked 670300 USSR and ask if you can identify 25 that for us (tendering document). Page 203 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 229 1 A. (Reviewing Document) Yes. 2 Q. What is it, please, sir? 3 A. It's a reprint of an article entitled, 4 "Industrial Toxicology and the Prevention of 5 Occupational Poisonings in the Chemical Industry. 6 Q. This is a translation from a foreign 7 article, correct? 8 A. It's a translation from a Russian article. 9 Q. Do you recall how you came to have this 10 article, Dr. Rowe? 11 A. No, I don't. 12 Q. This is one you brought from your personal 13 library at home to the deposition? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Would you have had this article while you 16 were still at Dow? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Can you recall if you ever utilized this 19 article in any of your work? 20 A. We always considered it for information that 21 we could glean from the literature. 22 Q. In what way do you recall having considered 23 this article, sir? 24 A. I beg your pardon. 25 Q. In what way do you recall having considered Page 204 230 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 1 this article? 2 A. It was of particular interest to me because 3 I knew Professor Letavet and Dr. Korbakova. 4 Q. And you met them on one of your visits to 5 Russia? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. When was that visit, sir? 8 A. I think that was in 1963. 9 Q. This original Russian article was printed in 10 1967; so, it would have been printed after - published 11 after your visit there, then? 12 A. Must have been. 13 MR. BLANKS: It's a good witness. 14 Q. I apologize, Dr. Rowe. You didn't seem to 15 be as sure about the '63 date, is why I ask. I 16 apologize. I'm not trying to be cute or anything with 17 you. 18 Was there any particular part of this 19 Russian article that you found particularly 20 interesting in your work that you utilized? 21 A. I don't recall. 22 Q. Did you maintain correspondence with either 23 of these gentlemen after your visit in Russia? 24 A. No. 25 (PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT 730409 DOW 231 1 WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION 2 PURPOSES. SAME WILL BE FOUND IN 3 THE EXHIBIT VOLUMES ATTENDANT TO 4 THIS DEPOSITION.) Page 205 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 5 (By Mr. Hobson) 6 Q. Let me hand you Exhibit 730409 DOW and ask 7 you if you can identify this article, sir (tendering 8 document). 9 MR. PIERCE: (Reviewing document) 10 MR. HOBSON: It would help speed 11 things along if Dr. Rowe would look at 12 the first part after you've looked at 13 it, Counsel. 14 MR. PIERCE: No. I don't want to 15 do that. Did you make any markings in 16 this, Mr. Hobson, or your colleagues? 17 MR. HOBSON: I don't recall that I 18 did, but I won't tell you I didn't. 19 MR. PIERCE: Then I'd like to 20 check it through. 21 MR. BLANKS: In the event, what 22 should we do then? 23 MR. PIERCE: Excuse me? 24 MR. BLANKS: Well, on the 25 assumption that there might be some in 232 1 there, what about it? I mean, we 2 already said we marked these - 3 MR. PIERCE: I don't care what you 4 said, Mr. Blanks. 5 MR. BLANKS: Pardon me? 6 MR. PIERCE: I don't care what you 7 said, Mr. Blanks. I'd like to find out Page 206 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 8 if there are markings. You assure me 9 there are none - make that 10 representation - that's fine. 11 MR. BLANKS: Well, I don't think 12 that any that are in there were made by 13 me, if there are any. That paper looks 14 so boring I don't think I've even made 15 any. 16 MR. PIERCE: Want to start looking 17 through (directed to the witness)? 18 A. (Reviewing document) 19 (By Mr. Hobson) 20 Q. All right. Do you recognize that document, 21 Dr. Rowe? 22 A. I can honestly say that I don't recognize it 23 as such. 24 Q. Can you tell us -- Is this something you 25 brought from your library at home? 233 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Would you have any recollection of why it's 3 in your library? 4 A. Yes. It's -- It's a general compilation of 5 methodology and examples of it in various categories 6 of toxicological evaluation. 7 Q. And do you know what it was used for, this 8 document? 9 A. My memory is vague about this, but I do 10 remember that - It must have been in 1973 because 11 that's when it's dated - that we tried to get our Page 207 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 12 experts in each of the fields of toxicology to write 13 up a comprehensive piece that could be used in 14 educating our other people. 15 Q. And by "our other people," who do you mean, 16 sir? 17 A. Whoever. 18 Q. Any Dow employee? 19 A. Anybody that -- If we happened to want to 20 use it for a symposium or education of new employees 21 and so on. 22 Q. The last sheet that's there, I think, is 23 handwriting. 24 A. Yes. I remember that. 25 Q. Can you tell me whose handwriting that is, 234 1 sir? 2 A. No, I can't. 3 Q. It's definitely not yours,though? 4 A. It's not mine. 5 Q. All right, sir. Do yourecall, sir, ever 6 participating in any training sessions, yourself, 7 dealing with toxicology and what I'll call "hourly 8 workers" of Dow Chemical Company? 9 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form 10 of the question. 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. How far back in your career at Dow does that 13 go, sir? 14 A. Probably started in the Nineteen - around Page 208 15 1940. Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 16 Q. And what do you recall about those sessions? 17 What did they deal with, sir? 18 A. The purpose was to acquaint people 19 employees in one area or another - salespeople, other 20 research people - about the significance of - or 21 existence of the biochemical research laboratory. 22 Q. And why would you want to do that? 23 A. Education. 24 Q. And what was the value to you in your work 25 in providing this education? 235 1 A. Well, people can't do anything about what 2 they don't know about. 3 Q. Could you tell me more what you mean by 4 that, sir? 5 A. Toxicology was unknown to almost even most 6 chemists. 7 Q. And, so, you were trying to get information 8 about toxicology to chemists and to people working 9 with chemists about the problems - the hazards of 10 chemicals that you dealt with. 11 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form 12 of the question. 13 But go ahead and answer. 14 A. I don't know what limitations you are 15 referring to or what -- We -- We conducted safety 16 meetings throughout the plant, various groups, from 17 time to time, impromptu, some scheduled, where we 18 tried to explain the - what we did in the toxicology Page 209 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 19 section of the biochemical research laboratory. 20 Q. And as early as the 1940's, you found that 21 to be a good practice to follow, I take it. 22 A. Very, very, very good. 23 Q. And what I'm trying to learn, sir, in your 24 words, is why you found that to be a good practice. 25 MR. PIERCE: Obj ection. 236 1 Q. Why did you find it necessary to do? 2 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the 3 form. 4 A. We made every effort to create a 5 consciousness among employees about the safe handling, 6 proper procedures to use, and so forth in handling 7 chemicals. 8 Q. And in your words, sir, would you tell us 9 why that was something you found important to do at 10 Dow. 11 MR. PIERCE: Asked and answered. 12 Q. What was the benefit, sir? 13 A. We sought - 14 MR. PIERCE: Obj ection. 15 A. -- to make it a safer place - a safer 16 workplace. 17 Q. Does your - 18 MR. ALMQUIST: If you're switching 19 gears, we've been going for an hour. 20 Continue? Okay. 21 MR. PIERCE: How much do you have Page 210 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 22 left? Okay. 23 MR. ALMQUIST: We'll finish. 24 Q. Let me ask you one question, I guess, 25 Dr. Rowe. I've looked through your bibliography 237 1 that's attached to your C.V.; and I don't find listed 2 a chapter that I think you wrote in the second edition 3 of Patty. Did you write a chapter in the second 4 edition of Patty? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. I may have missed it. Would you recall if 7 it's there? I didn't find it (tendering document). I 8 found the third edition but not the second edition. 9 1958. 10 A. (Reviewing document) I guess I don't 11 understand your question, then. 12 Q. Did you write a section of the second 13 edition of Patty that would have been published about 14 1958? 15 A. Your dates are -- I don't remember what all 16 was in the first edition and the second edition. 17 Q. Did you write a portion of the first 18 edition, as well? 19 A. I don't remember which edition it is. 20 That's my problem. 21 MR. HOBSON: All right, sir. I 22 think we're out of tape; so, I'll stop 23 at that point. 24 (SHORTLY AFTER THE RECESS WAS 25 CALLED, IT WAS DECIDED TO BREAK FOR Page 211 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 238 1 LUNCH. THEREFORE, AT 11:20 A.M. THE 2 DEPOSITION WAS RECESSED AND AT 12:30 3 P.M. RESUMED AS FOLLOWS:) 4 (By Mr. Hobson) 5 Q. Dr. Rowe, just before we broke for lunch, I 6 was asking you about your authorship in sections of 7 the various editions of the Patty's Industrial Hyg iene 8 and Toxicology. In your bibliography you referenced 9 the third edition which was edited by George Clayton 10 and his wife. 11 Do you recall if you did have a chapter in 12 the earlier editions of Patty? 13 A. My confusion is with -- Which edition is 14 which? 15 Q. All right sir. The third edition that 16 Mr. and Mrs. Clayton did was published in 1981. 17 A. Okay. 18 Q. The earlier editions of Patty - I believe 19 the first edition was '48 and the second edition was 20 about 1958. 21 A. Okay. 22 Q. I thought that you had a chapter in at least 23 the 1958 Patty's. 24 A. Yeah. 25 MR. PIERCE: If you recall, Page 212 239 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 1 Doctor. All you can do is the best you 2 can do. 3 A. I had several chapters in that edition. I 4 don't remember the date. That was right around 1960, 5 though, -- 6 Q. Yes, sir. 7 A. -- the one I'm referring to. 8 Q. I didn't find those chapters referenced in 9 your bibliography, though, the ones that would have 10 been around 1960. Is that just something you didn't 11 put in your bibliography that's your C.V.? 12 A. I don't -- I don't know. 13 whole listed? I -- Is the volume as a 14 Q. I don't know, sir. Let me give it back to 15 you (tendering document). 16 MR. PIERCE: You have a stick-on 17 with arrows. Do you want those there? 18 MR. HOBSON: You can pull them 19 off, if you like. 20 A. (Reviewing document) It's not there. I 21 don't know why. 22 (By Mr. Hobson) 23 Q. All right, sir. One of the things that I 24 believe you were asked to bring to the deposition, 25 Dr. Rowe, was industrial hygiene and occupational 240 1 medicine texts. And I didn't find, when I went 2 through the stack, any texts. Some people who have 3 come to the depositions have only brought copies of, Page 213 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 4 perhaps, the cover page or something to the published 5 text. I was wondering if -- I didn't see those in 6 here. 7 Did you bring anything - any textbooks or 8 any parts of textbooks? 9 A. No, I did not. 10 Q. Do you have any some texts that were written 11 before 1965 on these subjects? 12 A. I have Patty. I don't know that I have any 13 other texts that were written that early. 14 Q. All right, sir. And you have Patty's first 15 edition? 16 A. No, I don't think I have the first edition. 17 I have the one that - that was published in about 18 1960's, around there. 19 Q. All right, sir. I'm sorry. I thought you 20 told - 21 A. And the - that's a one-volume deal. And the 22 next volume was a three-volume deal. I have -- I have 23 both of those but not the first edition. 24 Q. All right, sir. 25 MR. HOBSON: We want to attach as 241 1 Rowe Exhibit 1 the notice for the 2 deposition, and it does say with 3 subpoena duces tecum. And I think our 4 earlier discussion about the fact that 5 Dr. Rowe was not served with a subpoena 6 but his appearance is by agreement - 7 We will note that exception, but we Page 214 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 8 will ask that the notice of the 9 deposition be attached as Exhibit 1. 10 (PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT ROWE 1 11 WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION 12 PURPOSES. SAME WILL BE FOUND IN 13 THE EXHIBIT VOLUMES ATTENDANT TO 14 THIS DEPOSITION.) 15 (By Mr. Hobson) 16 Q. Dr. Rowe, does the term "environmental 17 stewardship" have meaning to you, sir? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. What does it mean to you? 20 A. It means to me that - that almost anything 21 that has an impact on the environment ought to be 22 considered and handled in the - in the best way 23 available. 24 Q. Was environmental stewardship a term that 25 was in use at Dow? 242 1 A. I don't know whether that term specifically 2 was used or not. 3 Q. Were you at Dow practicing what you've just 4 described as "environmental stewardship" for your 5 products? 6 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the 7 form. 8 A. I believe so. 9 Q. How were you doing that, sir? 10 A. We were trying to convey all the information Page 215 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 11 that we had relative to downstream uses of products. 12 And I guess I don't know exactly what - what you're 13 referring to from the standpoint of specifics. 14 Q. Well, sir, I'd really like to know how the 15 description of environmental stewardship that you gave 16 me was practiced in general at Dow, if it was. 17 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the 18 form. The witness testified that 19 he doesn't even know if that term was 20 employed at Dow. 21 A. We're very conscious of by-product waste and 22 this sort of thing that can contaminate the 23 environment; and we did what I believe was 24 everything we had available to us, technology and so 25 forth, to avoid environmental contamination. 243 1 Q. You used the terminology a moment ago 2 "downstream uses." What did you mean by that, sir? 3 A. Well, you dispose of a material, you sell a 4 product, and you do everything you can to avoid having 5 it misused or, for example, dumped in a - in a dump or 6 whatever. 7 Q. How would you at Dow, in your own words, 8 deal with those kinds of problems for Dow Chemical 9 products? 10 A. Labeling, product brochures, following 11 regulations as close as we could, contacts with other 12 people in an attempt to avoid everything that we could 13 reasonably avoid in contamination of the environment. 14 Q. Would you know, sir, did Dow ever have as a Page 216 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 15 practice evaluating a potential customer before you 16 sold the product to the customer to make sure that 17 customer knew how to properly deal with the chemical 18 from a health and safety standpoint? 19 MR. PIERCE: I'll object to the 20 form of that question. 21 A. Yes. We had situations like that. 22 Q. Would you give me some of those examples 23 that you remember, sir. 24 A. I recollect one very early in which a 25 company wished to use methyl bromide as a fire 244 1 extinguisher. And we, even under threat of suit, 2 refused to sell it for that purpose. 3 Q. Are you saying that the company that wanted 4 to buy the material threatened to sue Dow if you 5 wouldn't sell it to them? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And even in the face of that, the decision 8 was made not to sell the product to the company? 9 A. That's my understanding. 10 Q. And what was the reason the decision was 11 made not to sell the product for that purpose? 12 MR. PIERCE: Asked and answered. 13 A. Because we believed that it was too 14 hazardous to use for such a purpose. 15 Q. What was the approximate time frame of that, 16 Dr. Rowe? 17 A. I can't be sure, but it would have been in Page 217 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 18 the early Forties. 19 Q. Would you have been maintaining a file of 20 customer inquiries or customer correspondence about 21 different Dow products? 22 A. I didn't. 23 Q. If -- Would it occur from time to time that 24 a customer would write to Dow and ask for information 25 about the safe use of a product and you would be asked 245 1 to respond? 2 A. It's possible. 3 Q. I know that it's possible, but do you recall 4 that actually happening? 5 A. Specifics I don't remember. I don't 6 remember, but I'm sure the situation did exist. 7 Q. And when you would respond, would you have 8 done that in writing occasionally? 9 A. In either writing or conversation. 10 Q. If you did it in writing, would you have 11 kept a record of that written correspondence? 12 A. I don't know. I might -- I don't imagine 13 that I would have. I don't know. 14 Q. When you would write a letter -- Strike 15 that. Let me ask this: If you wrote a letter while 16 you were an employee of Dow to someone outside the 17 company, could you put your name on that letter? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Was there ever a time when you weren't 20 authorized to sign your own letters, that someone 21 above you had to put their name on a letter that you Page 218 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 22 had written? 23 A. I don't recollect any. 24 Q. Was it your general practice to keep copies 25 of letters that you had written in the Dow files? 246 1 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form 2 of the question. 3 A. I had a correspondence file, yes; but it 4 was -- I'd usually clean my files once a year and 5 discarded the - that which was of no longer any 6 significance. 7 Q. When you would do your toxicity testing work 8 at the biochemical research laboratories on Dow 9 products, would you know, sir, if that was carried as 10 just a general overhead charge; or would that charge 11 be billed back to certain groups within Dow Chemical 12 Company? 13 MR. PIERCE: I'm going to object 14 to the form of the question. 15 A. It's two questions. 16 Q. All right, sir. If you could, give me the 17 answer to each one, then, please, sir. 18 A. Some were billed as an overhead to our 19 department. Others were agreed to -- The financing 20 was agreed to by product departments or subsidiaries 21 or what. 22 Q. Would this be the case back in as early as 23 the 1930's - about late 1930's - when you began in the 24 biochemical research laboratory? Page 219 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 25 A. I don't know. 247 1 Q. Can you tell me, based on your knowledge, 2 approximately when this practice began? 3 A. I don't recall. 4 Q. Could you initiate toxicity testing on a 5 material at the biochemical research laboratory 6 without one of the other groups within Dow requesting 7 that work be done? 8 A. Yes. At times. 9 Q. You didn't have to wait for some other 10 entity in Dow, then, to ask you to begin a project? 11 A. No. 12 MR. HOBSON: Dr. Rowe, I 13 appreciate your patience with me. 14 That's all the questions I have on this 15 subject right now, sir. Thank you very 16 much. 17 THE WITNESS: You're welcome. 18 MR. PIERCE: Anyone else have any 19 questions? 20 21 EXAMINATION BY MR. BLANKS: 22 Q. Dr. Rowe, I wanted to visit with you about 23 some of these same areas, hoping not to repeat too 24 much. 25 Where and how did you get your training to Page 220 248 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 1 do toxicology work? I understood that you graduated 2 with degrees in biochemistry. 3 A. That's right. 4 Q. And I'm just wondering what more you needed 5 to learn to do toxicology. 6 A. That's a long story. There weren't 7 anything - or no one existed that - except for, 8 perhaps, a very few who would call themselves 9 "toxicologists" when I began to do this sort of 10 thing. So, what was -- It was really we developed, I 11 think, in many instances the discipline of what is now 12 known as industrial toxicology. There were forensic 13 toxicologists but very, very few people who would 14 consider themselves as industrial toxicologists. So, 15 we grew with it, saw the need, tried to invent means 16 and methods to answer the pertinent questions. So, we 17 grew up doing it. 18 Q. Did you have any jobs between your graduate 19 work and beginning with Dow? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Was it, then, Dr. Irish who was in a way 22 your initial teacher into the area of industrial 23 toxicology? 24 A. Dr. Irish and Dr. Adams. 25 Q. So, they were in some respect your mentors, 249 1 then; and I suppose - 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. -- in a way you all grew together in the Page 221 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 4 field. What were the pertinent questions in 1937 in 5 your field? 6 MR. PIERCE: I'm going to object 7 to the form of the question. 8 But try to answer it. 9 A. I don't know that I knew enough in 1937 to 10 identify them. 11 Q. Well, looking back with what you learned 12 over the following years as you matured in your field, 13 what you perceived it to have been, then. 14 A. Well, the problems that we were looking at 15 are identified by our publications and the problems 16 that The Dow Chemical Company had. We were interested 17 in the halogenated hydrocarbons; so, much of our 18 effort went into that. This was in those days quite 19 colloquial. 20 Q. Meaning -- Meaning what? 21 A. Meaning the problems that were surrounding 22 us - immediately surrounding us rather than the world 23 problems. 24 Q. I don't think that Mr. Hobson asked you, but 25 I'd appreciate it if you could give the jury just a 250 1 plain understandable definition of what toxicology is 2 and what it involves. 3 A. Our efforts at toxicology, perhaps, would 4 explain what I'm trying to say; but basically we would 5 expose animals to various compounds to try to learn 6 the amounts that were required under what conditions Page 222 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 7 to identify the areas of target organs, so to speak, 8 and apply the qualitative and quantitative aspects to 9 the - give it to the medical people, others involved 10 in - in the minimizing of occupational exposures. 11 Q. Okay. Well, that's - 12 A. And that was foundation that we looked to 13 apply. It involved various types of exposures that I 14 have described elsewhere there we've talked about. 15 Q. Thank you. And I think that is helpful. 16 In growing into your field, I would suspect that you 17 did a lot of reading along the way after you went to 18 work at Dow in areas that would be related to 19 toxicology in the work you were doing: wouldn't that 20 have been true? 21 A. No. I don't believe that I ever did a lot 22 of reading. 23 Q. Would you and your colleagues have at the 24 least been following the literature in the 25 occupational health field and industrial hygiene and 251 1 toxicology field? 2 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form 3 of the question. 4 A. Yes. We tried to do that. 5 Q. And at that time in 1937, the volume of 6 publications and articles was certainly less than it 7 was in the last years that you worked, was it not? 8 A. Oh, yes. 9 Q. So, at that time, in fact, it was practical 10 for one to be pretty well abreast of the published Page 223 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 11 literature in his professional field. 12 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form 13 of the question. 14 Q. Would you agree? 15 MR. PIERCE: It requires 16 speculation on the part of the witness 17 as to what affects someone else and 18 what someone else does. 19 A. We tried to do that. 20 Q. At any rate, it was easier to do then than, 21 say, in 1977, 40 years later, when there were more 22 journals, more articles, more presentations, and so 23 on: would that be fair to say? 24 A. I think so. 25 Q. Have you given any -- any kind of testimony 252 1 for Dow before at any time? 2 A. 3 Q. 4 time? I beg your pardon. Have you given testimony for Dow at any 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Would that have been in lawsuits or in front 7 of regulatory bodies or Government groups or both? 8 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form 9 of the question. 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. All of the above? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Okay. What -- What sort of litigation Page 224 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 14 topics have you given testimony on, sir? 15 A. Agricultural chemicals, chlorinated 16 hydrocarbons, 2,4,5-T, dioxin. I don't know any... 17 Q. Have you ever testified in any case 18 involving any sort of mineral dust exposure at a Dow 19 facility? 20 A. No. 21 Q. You've testified, I suppose, before some 22 governmental groups, committees, agencies? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Would that be so? And what was the subject 25 matter of those appearances? 253 1 A. 2,4,5-T and - and dioxins were one of the 2 major ones. But I was a member of a number of 3 committees, and I can't remember all the things we 4 talked about. 5 Q. Did your committee membership carry on after 6 you left Dow, or did you withdraw from your 7 professional association? 8 A. I withdrew from that. 9 Q. I'm sorry. I talked over you. 10 A. I withdrew. 11 Q. Okay. So, while connected with committees 12 and testifying before Government groups, you were 13 still a Dow employee? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And were there testifying at Dow's behest, I 16 would suppose. 17 Is that true? MR. PIERCE: Page 225 Objection to the form Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 18 of the question. 19 A. I don't know how to answer that because I 20 was a Dow employee, but I was given the privilege of 21 testifying and discussing problems with the committee 22 as an independent person. 23 Q. So, you weren't necessarily expressing Dow's 24 view when you'd testify? Well, you might have been? 25 A. That would have my background of most of my 254 1 opinions; but I was speaking, not for Dow, but for 2 myself. 3 Q. Did some of your testimony involve efforts 4 to oppose or resist changes in regulations about 5 occupational health - 6 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form 7 of the question. 8 Q. -- and industrial hygiene standards? 9 MR. PIERCE: Continue the 10 objection. 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And some of that testimony involved 13 resisting tightening up standards as to suspected 14 human carcinogens, did it not? 15 MR. PIERCE: Objection to form 16 of the question. 17 A. I don't really -- Can you be more specific? 18 Q. Well, unfortunately, since I don't know what 19 you testified on, I can't be specific about what 20 materials might have been involved. Page 226 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 21 A. Maybe it would help me if you could tell me 22 what you mean by "testifying." 23 Q. Well, I meant where you appeared in front of 24 OSHA regulatory hearings or some Congressional 25 committee or something of that sort. 255 1 A. I see. Okay. Yes. I have -- I have -- The 2 first one I was interested in mentioning was with the 3 T.L.V. committee. And I remember distinctly of 4 urging that committee to lower the level on carbon 5 tetrachloride because I felt that the standards were 6 excessive. 7 Q. In what decade do you recollect doing that 8 service in? 9 A. Probably the Forties. 10 Q. And, indeed, it was probably your opinion 11 that there were other T.L.V. standards that were 12 excessive, as well, during those years; isn't that 13 true? 14 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the 15 form. 16 A. I -- I don't believe I ever testified in 17 that sense. I provided data for the committee to use 18 in making evaluations. 19 Q. In fact, though, many of the T.L.V.'s that 20 the American Congress of Governmental Industrial 21 Hyg ienists had originally set out were not supported 22 by the quantity or quality of data such as you were 23 providing on particular substances, were they? 24 MR. PIERCE: Object to the form Page 227 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 25 of the question. It's argumentative 256 1 and speculative. 2 A. I think that's correct. 3 Q. In fact, they originated just as a 4 benchmark, something that was in the nature of being 5 better than nothing to provide some guidelines to 6 people in industry to protect workers from exposures. 7 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form 8 of the question. 9 Is there going to be a question? 10 MR. BLANKS: Well, if the 11 objection does not interrupt it. 12 (By Mr. Blanks) 13 Q. Isn't that so, sir? 14 A. I think we always have looked at the 15 A.C.G.I.H. threshold limit values as the best estimate 16 of a basis of the information that was available at 17 that particular time. 18 Q. You mean at the time they were initially 19 promulgated? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And over the course of the years that 22 followed, the - additional information came to light 23 with respect to different substances which did not 24 immediately show up in terms of changes of the 25 T.L.V.'s; isn't that right? Page 228 257 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 1 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form 2 of the question; leading. 3 It's just really a speech; but 4 deal with it, sir. 5 A. As new information becomes avai labl e, 6 there's always some lag time before it is accepted. 7 In that sense, surely, we're always going to have 8 change. 9 Q. And with respect, for instance, to the 10 mineral dust, the lag time was on the order o f many 11 years and not just a few; isn't that right? Those 12 topics -- Those materials weren't revisited by the 13 committee until many years - some decades after the 14 standards had originally been set. Isn't that so? 15 MR. PIERCE: Objection to form of 16 the many questions at the same time, 17 all of which were compound. 18 MR. ALMQUIST: And I'll join in 19 that objection and also raise the 20 objection it's an argumentative 21 question. 22 A. I do not know. I was - never believed that 23 I was an expert or really knowledgeable in the area of 24 particulate toxicology. 25 Q. So, that was something that you never really 1 concerned yourself with at Dow? 2 A. I -- I didn't. Page 229 258 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 3 Q. Isn't it the case that Dow was one of the 4 first few companies to actually set up a toxicology 5 department and laboratory? 6 A. One of the first. 7 Q. One of the first of maybe half a dozen in 8 the United States; is that about right? 9 A. Perhaps. 10 Q. Well, you've mentioned Carbide's efforts 11 through the Mellon Institute and, I think, Du Pont at 12 the Haskell Laboratory, and maybe a couple others; but 13 Dow was certainly one of the leaders in that area, 14 correct? 15 A. We thought so. 16 Q. And to whom do you attribute this - the 17 foresight that led to the creation of an industrial 18 toxicology department and laboratory? 19 A. To Willard H. Dow. 20 Q. And was he a doctor, a Ph.D., a scientist? 21 A. He received honorary doctorate degree. 22 Q. He wasn't a physician? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Was it a matter of scientific curiosity that 25 led him to do this, or was it more a concern for the 259 1 health and safety of the people that worked - 2 MR. PIERCE: Objection. 3 Q. -- for his company? 4 MR. PIERCE: Objection to form of 5 the question; it's compound. Objection 6 that you're asking Dr. Rowe to Page 230 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 7 speculate on the thoughts of Willard 8 Dow. 9 But go ahead. 10 A. Willard Dow, president and the founder, was 11 a very people-oriented person. And we had an accident 12 in the plant where a man was killed from a splash of 13 phenol. No one knew at that particular time the 14 toxicity of phenol when applied to the skin. As a 15 result of that, my understanding: that Dr. Dow wanted 16 that never to happen again and he tried to and did 17 create the biochemical research laboratory to study 18 materials that Dow people were handling so that such a 19 thing would not happen again to the best of his 20 ability. 21 Q. And it was around that time that he hired 22 Dr. Irish to set up the laboratory and get the program 23 going, correct? 24 A. That's right. 25 Q. Did I understand that the goal then was to 260 1 know at Dow about the hazards, the toxicity of all the 2 materials that were being handled in the plants in 3 order to protect the safety of the people in the 4 plants? 5 MR. PIERCE: Objection to form of 6 the question. 7 A. As far as that was humanely possible with 8 the resources available. 9 Q. And as I think you've testified, the Page 231 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 10 resources were made available and in steadily 11 increasing amounts over the decades that you were with 12 the company. 13 A. That's right. 14 Q. Would that be true? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Starting with one man in 1933 or '34 and 17 growing up to over a hundred late in your career, 18 correct? 19 MR. PIERCE: Mr. Blanks, could you 20 ask a single question, allow the 21 witness to answer it instead of 22 continually piling question on question 23 as he tries to answer the first one. 24 Please attempt that. 25 Go ahead, Dr. Rowe. 261 1 A. Would you please start over your - that 2 question. 3 Q. Dow did, indeed, apply resources to the area 4 of occupational health, beginning with the hiring of 5 one - one scientist in 1933 or '34 in the person of 6 Dr. Irish and continuing over the decades you were 7 with the company to build a staff that approached or 8 exceeded even a hundred people, correct? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Would you say, sir, that Dow had a 11 state-of-the-art biochemical research and toxicology 12 program in 1937 when you joined the company? 13 MR. ALMQUIST: I'm going to Page 232 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 14 object - 15 MR. PIERCE: Objection to form of 16 the question. 17 MR. ALMQUIST: I'm also going to 18 object to the form of the question 19 because of the use of the term "state 20 of the art" which has a legal 21 connotation in the sense it calls for a 22 legal conclusion on the part of this 23 witness. 24 A. That was not possible with our staff. 25 Q. It was not possible with your staff in 1937 262 1 to have a - a program that - that was what we call 2 "state-of-the-art" for that time? 3 MR. PIERCE: Continue the 4 objection. 5 MR. ALMQUIST: And also I want 6 to - if possible, Mr. Blanks to have 7 your agreement to a running objection 8 to state-of-the-art questions again 9 because - 10 MR. BLANKS: That's fine because I 11 don't understand that it is a legal 12 term unless you've just invented it. 13 It's certainly in common usage, and I'm 14 using it in that respect. And I think 15 if Dr. Rowe doesn't understand it that 16 way, he'll tell me; but you have a Page 233 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 17 running objection. 18 (By Mr. Blanks) 19 Q. I'm sorry, sir. I'm not meaning to belittle 20 your program or to criticize it. I'm trying to get an 21 understanding of it, and I mean that sincerely. But 22 in 1937 when you joined Dow, was the Dow toxicology 23 program at the biochemical research laboratory 24 comparable to the other good programs - the few good 25 programs - that existed in the Country then? 263 1 A. I don't know. 2 Q. Did you learn over the next three or four 3 years, say up before World War II, that it was on a 4 par with those of some of your competitors? 5 A. Yes. In -- In areas in which we were 6 primarily concerned, in organic chemicals, I think 7 that was true. 8 Q. Now, your charter from Dr. Dow had been to 9 know the hazards in the plant, as I understood your 10 testimony, so that you would not have repeat 11 repeated deaths and injuries to workers there from 12 exposures in the plant, - 13 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the -14 Q. -- correct? 15 MR. PIERCE: -- characterization 16 of the witness' prior statements. 17 A. To the limit of our capabilities. 18 Q. Yes, sir. And certainly you weren't 19 expected to go out and reinvent the wheel and do tox. 20 studies on materials about which there was already Page 234 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 21 reported information in the literature, were you? I 22 mean, you could rely on what others had already 23 published about some materials and concentrate your 24 efforts on those that - about which little was known. 25 True? 264 1 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form 2 again. Please ask a single question, 3 allow the witness to answer it. Nobody 4 can answer it if you ask a question - 5 The witness tries to begin to answer 6 it, and you continue with a second 7 question and put them together. 8 Please. 9 Q. Dr. Dow didn't tell you to go out and 10 reinvent the wheel and do toxicology work on every 11 material used in a Dow plant, did he? 12 A. No. 13 Q. You were, though, concerned to investigate 14 materials about which there was not existing 15 toxicological data in the literature, weren't you? 16 A. I'm -- I'm sorry. I don't think I heard all 17 of what you said. 18 Q. All right. The scope of your interest in 19 the tox. department, even in 1937, was first limited 20 to materials that were used in the Dow facilities. 21 A. To very few of them. 22 Q. But that defined the set or the universe of 23 materials to even consider studying, right, that were Page 235 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 24 used in your plants or came out the end of it as a 25 product? 265 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. You focused your efforts, I think, not on 3 materials about which information already existed, but 4 rather on those about which the toxicological 5 information was either limited or nonexistent; is that 6 true? 7 A. That's right. 8 Q. Such as the phenol, correct? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Okay. And relied, then, on the existing 11 literature in the medical journals and toxicology 12 journals and so on for those other materials that you 13 could look to the work of others on? 14 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form 15 of the question. It's ambiguous and 16 it's compound. 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Okay. Because you had limited resources and 19 you had to use them in the most efficient way, 20 correct? 21 A. Right. 22 Q. And the contributions that you and your 23 colleagues made in the field of toxicology are well 24 recorded in the articles that you and the other 25 gentlemen you worked with published over the years. Page 236 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 266 1 True? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And for the most part they provided new 4 insights and new data about the materials that you 5 reported on, right? You were breaking new ground? 6 MR. PIERCE: Please just - just 7 keep it to one question. Don't keep 8 adding that second question to each of 9 your questions. 10 A. We were plowing new ground in some areas. 11 We were extending knowledge in others. 12 Q. Okay. Now, as to those materials that were 13 used in the Dow plants which you did not study, where 14 did you look to get the toxicological or hazard 15 information about - about those materials? 16 A. The literature - available literature - at 17 the time or by correspondence or inquisition - verbal 18 inquisition - with people who were supposed to know. 19 Q. Such as perhaps the people that sold some of 20 the raw materials to Dow? 21 A. I'd presume so. I wasn't involved in that 22 particular part of the game at that stage. 23 Q. Now, how did the biochemical research 24 laboratory share the information it gleaned from the 25 literature with the Dow employees who would be 267 1 interested in knowing about particular hazards? 2 A. What we learned we tried to use in our Page 237 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 3 normal distributions which were, of course, quite 4 limited in those days. 5 Q. But the biochemical research laboratory 6 staff did, I suppose, make it a point to get the 7 material hazard information to the appropriate Dow 8 employees that would benefit from knowing it, correct? 9 A. I don't believe it was that extensive at 10 that time. Plant superintendents and people who were 11 in charge of operations were the channels through 12 which we worked. 13 Q. So, you'd communicate with the plant 14 superintendents, and then they would just share the 15 information with the people working in their plants 16 Right? 17 A. I don't know what happened after that - 18 after our communications or discussions. 19 Q. Did you ever have any reason to think that 20 the plant superintendents weren't disseminating the 21 product and material hazard information that you 22 provided? 23 A. I don't know -- I don't -- I don't know. 24 Q. You recall no instances where you learned 25 that something that your department had reported on 268 1 had not reached the field? 2 A. I don't remember ever particularly looking 3 at it. 4 Q. 5 A. I'm sorry. I say I don't remember particularly looking Page 238 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 6 for it. 7 Q. All right, sir. Have you ever taught any 8 courses in - at Dow or in colleges or universities? 9 MR. PIERCE: Objection to form of 10 the question. 11 Q. Have you ever taught? 12 A. Well, I've done - given -- I've given 13 lectures to lots of groups at our - in our 14 organization. I have -- I don't believe I could say 15 that I ever taught a course. 16 Q. So, the teaching you did was in Dow and it 17 was limited to presentations on a particular topic? 18 A. As far as I can recall. 19 Q. Okay. Did you ever belong to the American 20 Public Health Association? 21 A. Beg your pardon. 22 Q. Did you ever belong to the American Public 23 Health Association? 24 A. No, I did not. 25 Q. Ever attend any of their meetings, sir? 269 1 A. Don't recollect that I did. 2 Q. Is Fred Meyers stillliving? 3 A. I don't know. 4 MR. PIERCE: Objection to form. 5 A. Are you speaking of the Fred Meyer who was 6 in our laboratory? 7 Q. Yes, sir. 8 A. I don't know. 9 Q. Do you have a recollection of when you met Page 239 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 10 Jim Hammond - James Hammond? 11 A. I beg your pardon. 12 Q. Do you recall when you met James Hammond? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Did you know him before he went to work with 15 the Exxon company or its - what its predecessor was 16 then? 17 A. I don't know. 18 Q. Did you actually have a librarian at the 19 library at the Dow plant in Midland where you worked? 20 Was there a technical librarian there? 21 A. I don't know. 22 Q. You don't recall? 23 A. I don't know what her qualifications were. 24 Q. There was a librarian at the company 25 library? 270 1 A. Oh, yes. 2 Q. Company library? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Did you have to go to university libraries 5 to find the - all of the literature that you might 6 want to review on a particular material, or was it 7 present in the Dow library? 8 MR. PIERCE: Objection to form of 9 the question. 10 A. I recall one instance in which I went to 11 another library to find something. That's all I can 12 remember about it. I don't know what - what it was Page 240 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 13 and I can't remember where it was. In Chicago, I 14 believe. But I don't remember the name of the 15 library. 16 Q. But otherwise you were able to find what you 17 needed in the Dow company library? 18 A. I can't answer that. 19 Q. What other toxicology laboratories has Dow 20 had over the years that you were with the company 21 besides the one in Midland? 22 A. There was a laboratory established at 23 Freeport, Texas. 24 Q. When would that have been, approximately? 25 A. I don't remember when it was started. 271 1 Q. Do you recall who staffed it originally? 2 A. I'm not sure. 3 Q. What kind of work did they do there? 4 A. They did primarily what we referred to 5 before as Class I type work. 6 Q. The prel iminary investigations? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Was it specialized as to any particular type 9 of products or materials? 10 A. Not to my knowledge. 11 Q. Was it -- Was the Freeport lab doing the 12 same kind of work that you were doing in Michigan? 13 Let me do that again. Was the Freeport lab 14 looking at the same materials as you were 15 investigating in Michigan? 16 A. No. No necessarily. Page 241 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 17 Q. Were they to some extent duplicating your 18 work, or were they set up just to deal with a 19 specialized separate line of materials and products? 20 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form 21 of the question. 22 A. The problem of transporting research 23 quantities of materials back and forth became a 24 logistic problem; so, we established a laboratory to 25 avoid that. They were trying to use the same 272 1 methodology that we used. 2 Q. So, they were concerned with the materials 3 that were being used or produced in Freeport, correct? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Okay. Did they have the capacity in 6 Freeport to do any kind of dust studies or dust 7 inhalation studies? 8 A. Not to my knowledge. 9 Q. Do you recall approximately how many people 10 staffed that facility at Freeport? Was it a very 11 small lab, two or three; or more than that? 12 A. I don't know what the range was. 13 Q. Did you ever visit the laboratory there? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Several times? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. What decades would you have gone there in? 18 A. Again I can't be specific, but it must have 19 been in the Sixties. Page 242 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 20 Q. Now, Doctor, would you have been down there 21 to consult with them on some particular problems; or 22 would this just have been a courtesy call? 23 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form 24 of the question. 25 A. We tried to get together with the group down 273 1 there maybe once a year or oftener if there was 2 something specific, but I don't recall anything other 3 than normal-type conversation, I guess, about what was 4 going on at the moment. And it wasn't on an 5 inspection-type basis. 6 Q. Did the Freeport laboratory come under the 7 biochemical research laboratory in Midland? Was it 8 subordinate to your laboratory? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Just more parallel to it? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. So, to whom would the chief of the Freeport 13 laboratory have reported, to his plant superintendent? 14 MR. PIERCE: Objection to form of 15 the question. 16 A. I don't remember. 17 Q. How frequently would you Dow scientists meet 18 to exchange ideas and information? And I don't mean 19 in your own office, but like companywide. 20 A. I don't believe I can answer that unless you 21 become more specific. 22 Q. Well, did you have a custom or a practice of 23 getting together periodically with the other Dow Page 243 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 24 people that were working in your field and related 25 fields? 274 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And how frequently would that happen? 3 A. I don't know that it was on any planned 4 basis. 5 Q. On an unplanned basis how frequently did it 6 happen over the years you were with the company? 7 A. Well, it didn't happen at all in the early 8 times because there wasn't anybody except our local 9 people to go to it. We did meet with the Texas people 10 and medical directors, safety department people, 11 industrial hygienists, toxicologists. Met maybe once 12 a year, usually under the auspices of the medical 13 departments. 14 Q. How old is the Freeport plant? 15 A. That was started in 1940. I don't know what 16 stage of construction it was. I wasn't there. 17 Q. Would you know when they got a medical 18 doctor at that plant like you had at Midland? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Could you tell us when? 21 A. Excuse me. Rephrase your question. Maybe I 22 answered it incorrectly. 23 Q. Okay. Do you know if and when the Freeport 24 plant had a full-time doctor hired? 25 A. No, I do not know. Page 244 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 275 1 Q. Don't know if they ever did? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Just don't know when? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Okay. Do you know who the first one was? 6 A. My recollection was Dr. Kilian. 7 Q. Were there any other toxicology laboratories 8 in the Dow company besides Midland and Freeport? 9 A. You'll have to give me a time frame. 10 Q. Well, any time you know of because I don't 11 know where your other plants were. 12 A. There was a toxicology laboratory at the 13 at the drug laboratory in Indianapolis. 14 Q. Any others, sir? 15 A. There was a drug laboratory in Livorno, I 16 believe, in Italy, LePetite, which was at one time a 17 subsidiary of Dow. 18 Q. Was Lapatee the name of the subsidiary or 19 the town? You lost me there. 20 A. That was a drug company, an Italian drug 21 company. 22 Q. And what was the subsidiary in Indiana that 23 had the drug lab? 24 A. That was the Dow Pharmaceutical. 25 Q. Are those the only ones you recall, Doctor? 1 A. That's the only ones I recall. Page 245 276 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 2 Q. Did your department ever report to the 3 medical department, or were you separate? 4 A. No. 5 Q. You never reported to the medical 6 department? 7 A. That's right. 8 Q. What relationship did you have with the 9 safety department? 10 A. A working relationship. 11 Q. They would come to you with problems 12 occasionally, and you'd provide information and 13 advice? 14 A. We com - communicated, I think, routinely. 15 Q. Did the safety department handle industrial 16 hygiene tasks before you hired industrial hygienists 17 at Dow? 18 A. Not to my knowledge. 19 Q. Is it so that there was no industrial 20 hygiene work being done, then, in 1937 when you joined 21 Dow? 22 A. Not to my knowledge. 23 Q. And you and Dr. Adams were the initial 24 practitioners in the field for Dow? 25 A. Dr. Adams, not me. 277 1 Q. And you assisted him in some of that work, 2 didn't you, sir? 3 A. Later on. 4 Q. Including designing the air sampling device 5 and taking samples? Page 246 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And then but it really wasn't until 8 Mr. Hoyle was hired that you had industrial 9 hygienists? 10 A. I don't think any of us could qualify as 11 that. 12 Q. Well, did Mr. Hoyle qualify as that when he 13 was hired; or was that something he - he sort of 14 learned his way into? 15 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form 16 of the question. 17 A. He learned his way in like the rest of us. 18 Q. What specifically was being done at Dow in 19 1937 when you joined the company to protect people in 20 the Dow plants from toxic mineral dust, - 21 MR. PIERCE: Obj ection. 22 Q. -- if anything? 23 MR. PIERCE: Objection to form of 24 the question. It's overly broad. It's 25 ambiguous. 278 1 A. I don't know. 2 Q. When did you first become aware that 3 anything was being done at Dow to protect people 4 working in the plants from exposures to toxic mineral 5 dust? 6 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the 7 form. 8 A. I don't remember. Page 247 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 9 Q. Is it your recollection that this is not a 10 matter that Dr. Adams worked on while you were working 11 with him, assisting him in industrial hygiene-type 12 work? 13 14 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form - 15 A. I don't know. 16 MR. PIERCE: -- of the question. 17 It assumes facts not in evidence. 18 Q. I'm sorry. 19 A. I don't know. 20 Q. Be ing as there were only, like, three or 21 four of you there in the biochemical research lab in 22 the beginning, isn't it likely that you would have 23 known at least the general areas Dr. Adams was working 24 on in 1937- '38? 25 A. I'd doubt it necessarily, that stage of the 279 1 game, because I was preoccupied with other things. 2 Q. And those are the things that show up in 3 your early articles? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Did you ever or do you speak any foreign 6 languages, Dr. Rowe? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Did you ever learn to read any foreign 9 languages? 10 A. Elementary, I guess. 11 Q. Which would that be? 12 A. French. Page 248 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 13 Q. So, in terms of following the literature 14 that was published in foreign journals, sir, you would 15 have relied on translations or Digest abstracts that 16 had been - from translations without reading it, 17 yourself? 18 MR. PIERCE: Objection; to the 19 form. 20 A. Yes. And even any French articles. 21 Q. Okay. Dr. Rowe, do you believe that Dow 22 needed to be told by the manufacturers of insulation 23 products about the dangers of asbestos in 1937? 24 MR. PIERCE: Objection to form of 25 the question. 280 1 A. I would ask you if you would repeat that. 2 Q. Is it your belief that Dow required to be 3 informed - to be told by the makers of asbestos 4 insulation about the dangers of asbestos, say, in 1937 5 when you joined the company? 6 A. I don't know. 7 Q. Would you say that Dow needed to be told by 8 the manufacturers of asbestos products about the 9 health hazards of asbestos ten years later in 1947? 10 MR. PIERCE: Obj ection again. 11 A. Well, I think that anybody that was 12 getting a product would like to know what - what's 13 known about it at the time, so -- I don't know. 14 Q. So, that would have been beneficial to Dow 15 to have been informed by the manufacturers about what Page 249 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 16 they did know about asbestos health hazards? 17 MR. PIERCE: I'm going to object 18 to the form and continue the objection 19 for this type of question. 20 A. The question relates to something that one 21 would have to answer philosophically. You also would 22 have to have someone that understood the other side of 23 it. Whether or not that was in existence, I don't 24 know. 25 Q. You mean whether the information was in 281 1 existence in 1937 or 1947? 2 A. No. On the receiving end. 3 Q. I see. 4 MR. ALMQUIST: We've been going 5 about an hour - a little bit over an 6 hour now. You want to take a short 7 break? 8 Q. You want to stop now, sir? 9 MR. PIERCE: Yeah. We'll take a 10 short break now. 11 MR. BLANKS: I was asking 12 Dr. Rowe. 13 THE WITNESS: I would 14 like to relax for a few minutes. 15 MR. BLANKS: All right, sir. 16 (AT THIS TIME A BRIEF RECESS WAS 17 TAKEN, AND THE PROCEEDINGS THEREAFTER 18 RESUMED AS FOLLOWS:) 19 (By Mr. Blanks) Page 250 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 20 Q. Dr. Rowe, besides the folks working at the 21 biochemical research laboratory, was there anyone else 22 who had the responsibility at Du Pont - at Dow - 23 MR. BLANKS: All right. Go ahead 24 and laugh. 25 Q. Dr. Rowe, I'll start over, sir. He's trying 282 1 to mess me up here (indicating Mr. Pierce). 2 MR. PIERCE: You do very well by 3 yourself. 4 (By Mr. Hobson) 5 Q. Were there any persons at Dow besides you 6 gentlemen in the biochemical research laboratory who 7 were responsible to look for health hazards in Dow 8 plants before the War? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. What positions would those people have been 11 in? 12 A. Medical people, nurses, safety people. 13 Q. And the safety people looked to health 14 hazards as well as what would be the more ordinary 15 mechanical safety hazards at Dow? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. This was so when you joined the company in 18 1937? 19 A. I don't know. 20 Q. Do you know when it became so? 21 A. No, because I can 't speak for the safety 22 people. Page 251 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 23 Q. You remember them being there early on in 24 your career at Dow, though, and that you did see them 25 routinely or frequently? 283 1 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form 2 of the question. 3 Q. I think you told us that earlier, didn't 4 you? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Who was responsible at Dow for following the 7 medical and scientific literature that pertained to 8 occupational health matters? 9 A. I don't know. 10 Q. Now, you've told us that you and the other 11 doctors with whom you worked in the early years did, 12 indeed, try to follow the literature; but I'm 13 wondering if there was any person who had that as 14 their specific responsibility. 15 A. Not to my knowledge. 16 Q. So, that obligation fell upon the shoulders 17 of each professional, then, to try and stay abreast in 18 his field? 19 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the 20 form; leading, really testimony. 21 A. 22 Q. 23 at Dow? Yes. Was the term "product stewardship" one used 24 A. I beg your pardon. 25 Q. Was the term "product stewardship" one that Page 252 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 284 1 was used at Dow? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And could you explain to the jury what that 4 concept means? 5 A. It was a program designed to acquaint people 6 within Dow in the production plants relative to the 7 consequences or hazards associated with the various 8 chemical products and their undesirable effects either 9 to people within the plant or without the plant and 10 to - I guess one could say nature, herself - streams 11 fish, desirable plants, and so forth. 12 Q. And how long has Dow been following this 13 philosophy? 14 A. Well, it was not anything organized until - 15 I suspect it was in the neighborhood of the Seventies. 16 Q. But Dow had, in fact, been doing many of 17 these things before the Seventies, had it not? 18 A. It had been doing things, yes; but it wasn't 19 at all formalized. 20 Q. So, it was put into a policy then in the 21 Seventies, - 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. -- what had been done informally before 24 then? 25 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the 1 form. Page 253 285 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 2 Q. "Yes"? 3 A. More or less. 4 Q. Do you recall that Dow or its employees or 5 the people working in its plants ever had the benefit 6 of this sort of product stewardship from the 7 manufacturers of asbestos materials used in Dow 8 facilities? 9 A. I don't -- I don't know anything about it. 10 Q. You don't know anything about any asbestos 11 health information that may have been provided to Dow 12 by the manufacturers of those products? 13 MR. PIERCE: Asked and answered. 14 Q. Is that what you meant, sir? 15 A. I don't know, no. 16 Q. Did you, yourself, ever inquire of any of 17 the asbestos insulation manufacturers about the 18 hazards of their products? 19 A. I don't recall that I did. 20 Q. Is that something that would have been more 21 in the realm of Mr. Hoyle's responsibilities or one 22 that would have fell in your area? 23 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form 24 of the question. 25 A. I wouldn't want to infer that it was 286 1 anybody's direct responsibility. I'd have to say that 2 I was not particularly concerned in those days about 3 asbestos. I have relied, more or less, on the 4 observations that if things were under control as Page 254 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 5 recommended by the various agencies that And that 6 was Mr. Hoyle's job to see that that was the case. 7 And I did not have any direct operation or function 8 there. 9 Q. Would that also have been true with respect 10 to silica dust hazards that might occasionally be 11 created in your plants? 12 A. Yes. 13 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form 14 of the question and -- 15 Q. Sir? 16 MR. PIERCE: Assumes facts not 17 evidence. 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. So, you have no knowledge about what 20 particular brands of asbestos insulation might have 21 been used in Dow facilities? 22 A. I do not. 23 Q. Did you ever see in the Dow plant the 24 handling of asbestos insulation material by Dow 25 employees or other persons working there? 287 1 A. I don't recall any. 2 Q. In fact, most of your work was, in fact, 3 done in the laboratory, wasn't i t? 4 A. That's right. 5 Q. Very little fieldwork involved? 6 A. Very little. 7 Q. So, you're not really in a position to tell 8 us much at all about the methods of handling asbestos Page 255 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 9 insulation or other materials, are you? 10 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form 11 of the question. It's argumentative 12 and also asked and answered as to what 13 he could tell you before. 14 Q. Was there a time, Dr. Rowe, when you were 15 responsible for running the industrial hygiene program 16 at Dow? 17 A. Administratively, yes. 18 Q. And would that have been when you were the 19 director of toxicology and industrial hygiene? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. That was, according to your C.V., 1970 to 22 1973. Is that - 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. That's your recollection? Now, after you 25 became the research scientist-director of 288 1 toxicological affairs, health and environmental 2 research, was the industrial hygiene work at Dow still 3 under your supervision or responsibility 4 administratively? 5 A. Administratively, yes. 6 Q. Was 1970, then, the first year that you were 7 administratively responsible for industrial hygiene? 8 A. No. I can't recall. 9 Q. Would you have had that responsibility as 10 while serving as the assistant director of the 11 biochemical research laboratory? Page 256 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Would you have had responsibility 14 administratively for industrial hygiene while serving 15 as the director of toxicology research section? 16 A. No. 17 Q. And it was Mr. Hoyle, of whom we've spoken 18 several times, who was then the man that reported to 19 you on industrial hygiene during those years that you 20 had administrative responsibility for it? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Would you agree, sir, that it was desirable 23 and, indeed, the right thing for Dow to know how many 24 cases of occupational disease were occurring in its 25 work force in the plants? 289 1 MR. PIERCE: Objection to form of 2 the question. 3 A. Well, I don't believe that any time you can 4 say that it's undesirable to have information that's 5 available. 6 Q. And would it not also have been desirable to 7 know how many cases of suspected occupational cancer 8 were taking place among people working in your plants? 9 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form 10 of the question. 11 A. It's always well to have information, but 12 there is more to that than just the fact that... 13 Q. Yes, sir. What more? 14 A. The quantitative aspects are usually missing 15 in that sort of thing. Page 257 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 16 Q. You mean quantitative in terms of the 17 exposure levels - 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. -- that the men may have had? 20 A. That's what I'm referring to. 21 Q. And I think we talked about that yesterday. 22 Not meaning to repeat unduly; but you would obtain 23 this quantitative information through doing 24 monitoring, correct, sir? 25 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the 290 1 form. 2 A. I'm going to ask you to repeat that, please. 3 Q. The quantitative information that you said 4 was part of the equation, you obtained that by doing 5 monitoring whether it's air monitoring or 6 environmental monitoring? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Or even biological monitoring? 9 A. In some instances, yes. 10 Q. When did Dow begin to collect information on 11 the incidence of occupational diseases in the work 12 workers in Dow plants? 13 A. I don't know. 14 Q. When did it begin to collect information on 15 the occupational cancers among people who worked in 16 Dow plants? 17 MR. PIERCE: Objection to form. 18 A. That would have probably have been in the Page 258 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 19 late Fifties. 20 Q. And did not some of Dow's studies in this 21 area lead to discovering a connection between arsenic 22 and cancer? Do you recall that, sir? 23 A. No, I don't. 24 Q. Do you recall a Gerald M. Ott, O-t-t? 25 A. Yes. 291 1 Q. And an H. L. Gordon? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. A B. B. Holder? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. What were these men? 6 A. Dr. Holder and Dr. Gordon were physicians 7 and Ott was a statistician. 8 Q. And they're the men that instituted the 9 program of computerizing the data from death 10 certificates, were they not? 11 A. That type of work would have been conducted 12 mostly through the medical department, yes. 13 Q. And it was certainly the case that the 14 medical department shared the results of these type of 15 studies with you in your department, correct? 16 A. I'm sure they would - did. 17 Q. Was that the kind of information that would 18 be helpful to you in the biomedical research 19 laboratory? 20 MR. ALMQUIST: I think perhaps the 21 question -- You just said "biomedical" 22 or "biochemical"? Page 259 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 23 Q. I'm sorry, sir. 24 A. We didn't have a biomedical laboratory as 25 such. 292 1 Q. My apologies. But information about the 2 incidence of disease and causes of death in your work 3 force would be valuable to you in the work you were 4 doing in the biochemical research lab? 5 A. Sure. 6 Q. When did Dow begin to use industrial hygiene 7 standards or maximum allowable concentrations as for 8 mineral dust? 9 MR. PIERCE: Objection to form. 10 A. I don't know. 11 Q. Do you recall when Dow began to use T.L.V.'s 12 for mineral dusts like asbestos and silica? 13 A. I don't remember. 14 Q. Would this have been done, sir, during the 15 time that you were administratively responsible for 16 industrial hygiene? 17 MR. PIERCE: Objection to form; 18 asked and answered. 19 A. I think it would have been done any time, 20 but I just don't recall all of Mr. Hoyle's duties in 21 this respect. So, I can't tell you when. 22 Q. All right, sir. Well, not -- I accept you 23 can't tell me when, but can you tell me whether you 24 remember that any one of these three - either I. H. 25 industrial hygiene standards or maximum allowable Page 260 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 293 1 concentrations or threshold limit values - were used 2 with respect to mineral dust during the years you 3 had administrative responsibility for industrial 4 hygiene? 5 A. I can't tell you. 6 Q. Do you recall, sir, how any of these 7 standards, if they were used, were implemented or 8 enforced at Dow? 9 MR. PIERCE: Objection to form 10 of the question. 11 A. I don't know. 12 Q. Can you tell us, sir, what was the maximum 13 allowable concentration for asbestos or silica dust 14 during the years that you were administratively 15 responsible for industrial hygiene? 16 A. No. 17 Q. How many plants and facilities did your 18 responsibilities involve when you were in charge of 19 industrial hygiene? 20 MR. PIERCE: Administratively? Is 21 that what you mean, Mr. Blanks? 22 MR. BLANKS: Well, that's the only 23 way he's described it. I'm not sure 24 what it means but... 25 A. Just the Midland location. Page 261 294 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 1 (By Mr. Blanks) 2 Q. So, it was the case, then, at least during 3 the years you were administratively in charge of 4 industrial hygiene that Freeport had its own 5 industrial hygiene program and that wasn't part of 6 your responsibility? 7 A. That's right. 8 Q. Would that Freeport program whenever it 9 existed have been under the toxicology laboratory 10 there? 11 A. My recollection is that it was under the 12 medical department in Texas. 13 Q. Can you tell us, sir, when during your time 14 of being administratively in charge of industrial 15 hygiene at Dow that air monitoring for mineral dust 16 was implemented? 17 A. I cannot. 18 Q. Was it done at all during the time that you 19 were administratively in charge of industrial hygiene? 20 A. I didn't participate in any. I don't know. 21 Q. Would not the people who reported to you 22 have been responsible for that? 23 MR. PIERCE: Objection to form. 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And isn't this a matter that would have been 295 1 of some interest to you as the man administratively in 2 charge of that program? 3 A. My involvement in the industrial hygiene 4 area there was administrative, and I relied on Page 262 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 5 Mr. Hoyle to run that operation. 6 Q. So, in fact, you don't really know what 7 year, if ever, air monitoring for asbestos dust or 8 silica dust was done in the Dow facility, do you? 9 A. No, I do not. 10 Q. Do you know when, if ever, any engineering 11 controls for dealing with these toxic mineral dusts 12 were put in place at Dow? 13 A. I do not. 14 Q. Would that have been the responsibility of 15 the industrial hygiene department that you were 16 administratively in charge of? 17 A. I am sure they would have been involved. 18 Perhaps the engineering department, as well. 19 Q. Who would have been involved in setting up a 20 biological or medical monitoring program for people 21 potentially exposed to toxic mineral dusts such as 22 asbestos or silica - 23 MR. PIERCE: Objection. 24 Q. -- in Dow facilities? 25 MR. PIERCE: Objection to form of 296 1 the question. 2 A. Medical department. 3 Q. If we assume that Dow did not begin air 4 sampling for asbestos dust until some time in the 5 1960's, can you explain to us, sir, why Dow waited so 6 long to begin doing that? 7 MR. PIERCE: That's a completely Page 263 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 8 improper question. I object to your 9 assumption, and certainly I object to 10 the question that goes from an 11 assumption that has no basis. 12 MR. BLANKS: Well, excuse me, 13 sir. Since you don't know the prior 14 testimony in this case, I don't suppose 15 you're in a position to - to fairly 16 make that objection but - 17 MR. PIERCE: But I'm making it 18 because there's nothing here today. 19 It's not based upon anything that we 20 have before us. 21 But go ahead and try and answer 22 the question. 23 (By Mr. Blanks) 24 Q. Dr. Rowe, you'd agree with me, wouldn't you, 25 that Dow had the ability to do air monitoring for 297 1 mineral dust certainly before World War II, would you 2 not? 3 A. I'm sure we had the capability someplace, 4 but I don't know what time it was established. 5 Q. And you understand that the mechanical 6 devices, the tools for air sampling for dust, were 7 available before the War, correct, sir? 8 A. I don't know. 9 Q. Did you ever learn about the availability of 10 dust sampling tools? 11 A. I know nothing about dust sampling tools. Page 264 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 12 Q. If we assume, sir, that it wasn't until the 13 Fifties that the first air monitoring for asbestos 14 dust was done in a Dow facility, can you explain to us 15 why it had not been done in the preceding years? 16 MR. PIERCE: I'm going to again 17 object to an assumption not based on 18 anything before us and to the question 19 that follows that thought - that 20 assumption. 21 Q. Sir? 22 A. My assumption, in answer to yours, is that 23 we didn't consider it to be a - in our operation to be 24 a significantly - significant problem. 25 Q. And by that you mean it wasn't a significant 298 1 problem relative to some of the other problems that 2 you faced, some of the other chemicals you had to deal 3 with? 4 A. I didn't say that. That would have been a 5 factor, but I don't believe that - that we were too 6 concerned about the operations that we had that may 7 have been involving asbestos. 8 Q. Would it also be the case that you weren't 9 too concerned about operations involving silica? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. It's true, though, isn't it, that certainly 12 by 1958 that Dow was aware of the long-term health 13 hazards of asbestos, correct, Mr. Rowe - Dr. Rowe? 14 A. I think that's a fair statement. Page 265 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 15 Q. And, in fact, your own laboratory did some 16 toxicology testing on asbestos fibers in that period, 17 did it not, 1958? 18 A. I don't know. We did some -- I don't know 19 what -- I don't know the dates. 20 Q. Well, what was the testing that you did that 21 you were thinking of there and couldn't remember a 22 date for? 23 A. We did some very preliminary work with 24 respect to particulates, using a technique that was 25 only a very preliminary evaluation of potential. And 299 1 this involved the injection interperitoneally of 2 suspensions of dust and examining the animals after a 3 period of time to see what the response was. 4 Q. What decade do you remember that being done 5 in? 6 A. Pardon? 7 Q. What decade do you remember those 8 experiments being done in? 9 A. I do not remember a time. I only remember 10 one time we were involved in that sort of thing. 11 Q. Was this work done for some other company 12 or - 13 A. No. 14 Q. What led to this research at Dow? 15 A. This was done in attempting to answer a 16 question that Dow Corning had in the use of DeGussa 17 silica in one of their operations. And it was claimed 18 that DeGussa was not fibrogenic, I guess. Page 266 And, so, Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 19 this was just a massive treatment to see if that were 20 true; and we used some materials like silica and 21 asbestos as positive controls. 22 Q. Did you see any mention of asbestos in any 23 of the documents you reviewed to prepare for your 24 deposition, Dr. Rowe? 25 MR. PIERCE: Objection to form of 300 1 the question. 2 A. I didn't understand. What? 3 Q. Did you review any documents to prepare for 4 your deposition, Dr. Rowe? 5 A. I don't recollect. 6 Q. Do you recollect preparing for this 7 deposition today? 8 A. I did not prepare for this deposition. I 9 just appeared. 10 Q. So, you weren't provided with any documents 11 to look at by anybody from Dow? 12 A. No, sir. 13 Q. Was it decided while you were responsible 14 administratively for industrial hygiene at Dow to 15 cease the use of asbestos thermal insulation products 16 in Dow plants? 17 A. I don't recollect that. 18 Q. Do you recollect that any consideration was 19 given by you or your staff to finding substitutes for 20 asbestos materials in Dow plants? 21 A. Yes. We were looking for something that Page 267 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 22 would replace dust known to be active. 23 Q. And you would also, then, have been looking 24 for replacements for sand as an abrasive to use in Dow 25 facilities? 301 1 A. I don't know for what purpose. 2 Q. Can you tell us what year that Dow ended all 3 asbestos exposures to people working in its plants? 4 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the 5 form. 6 A. I certainly cannot. 7 Q. Do you believe that at any time while you 8 were working with Dow that all asbestos exposures to 9 workers in the plants had ended? 10 A. I didn't get the end of that. 11 Q. Before you left Dow, was it the case that 12 workers in Dow plants were still facing asbestos dust 13 exposures in the plants? 14 A. I don't know. 15 Q. Is that something that you would expect your 16 industrial hygienists to have known? 17 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the 18 form. 19 A. I would expect so. 20 Q. What was done at Dow during the years you 21 were administratively responsible for industrial 22 hygiene to warn people working in your plants about 23 the hazards of toxic mineral dusts such as asbestos or 24 silica? 25 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form Page 268 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 302 1 of the question. 2 A. I don't know. 3 Q. Who would you expect to -- to be 4 knowledgeable about that, sir? 5 A. I would expect Mr. Hoyle to know the answer 6 to that. 7 Q. Was it the policy of Dow to allow men 8 working in its plants to be exposed to harmful or even 9 deadly amounts of toxic dust, sir? 10 MR. PIERCE: Objection to form of 11 the question; argumentative, assumes 12 facts not in evidence, compound. 13 Q. Sir? 14 A. Well, philosophically you'd never want to 15 have people exposed to hazardous quantities of any 16 material. 17 Q. And was that - 18 A. But -19 Q. -- the policy of Dow, as well as the 20 philosophy? 21 MR. PIERCE: Will you let him - 22 Excuse me. 23 I don't believe you've 24 finished your answer, Doctor. Please 25 do it. Page 269 303 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 1 A. Now I'm confused. Certainly that's a 2 philosophy, but that doesn't mean that any exposure is 3 necessarily a hazard exposure. 4 Q. And would that also be true with respect to 5 exposures to carcinogens, Dr. Rowe? 6 A. Yes. My belief, yes. 7 Q. And how do you determine what is a safe 8 level of exposure to a carcinogen such as asbestos? 9 A. Very difficult. You try to minimize. But 10 the body has a remarkable ability to accommodate when 11 you're speaking of asbestos. We've been exposed to 12 asbestos since the beginning of time. 13 Q. Was it known at Dow in 1979 when you retired 14 what a safe maximum level of exposure to asbestos was? 15 A. I don't know 16 Q. Was it known to you, sir? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Do you know now? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Do you think it's known to 21 science today? 22 A. I don't think so. 23 Q. What was the industrial hygiene program as 24 concerned contractor employees working in Dow plants 25 during the years that you were administratively in 1 charge of industrial hygiene? 2 A. I had nothing to do with contract 3 employees. I don't know what they did. My Page 270 304 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 4 understanding was that they were treated like the rest 5 of the Dow employees. 6 Q. That is, required to follow the same safety 7 rules and - 8 A. As far as I know. 9 Q. Was it the case at Dow that safety was 10 everybody's business in the plant? 11 A. That was our teaching. 12 Q. You have no recollection of the 1958 13 toxicology studies of asbestos short fibers done in 14 your laboratory by Dr. Olson, do you? 15 MR. ALMQUIST: I'm going to object 16 to the characterization in that 17 question that there was such a study 18 performed. I don't think there's any 19 evidence from any witness so far that 20 the study, as you've described it, was 21 performed in 1958. 22 MR. PIERCE: Objection. Join the 23 objection. 24 Q. While you were still with Dow, did you ever 25 obtain information about the incidence of 305 1 pneumoconiosis diseases in workers in Dow plants, sir? 2 A. I don't recollect. 3 Q. Who was R. A. Erhart? Do you remember 4 Dr. Erhart? 5 A. Erhart? 6 Q. From the coatings technical service. 7 A. No. I don't know him. Page 271 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 8 Q. You remember Ken Olson, don't you, sir? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And Mr. McCollister? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Were they working for you in 1958, Dr. Rowe? 13 MR. PIERCE: I think Dr. Rowe has 14 already testified he didn't even know 15 one of them. 16 Q. Well, "they" being the two gentlemen -17 A. Would you -- Would you repeat who you were 18 asking me about at this point. 19 Q. Yes, sir. Messrs. Olson and 20 Mr. McCollister, sir. 21 A. They worked for me, but I can't attest to 22 '58. I don't -- The time frame is... 23 Q. By 1958 you were the director of toxicology 24 research, were you not, at the - at the biochemical 25 research lab? 306 1 A. If that's what it says on the -2 Q. It does. It says 1954. And there's no 3 change until '64, so - 4 A. Okay. 5 Q. Okay. Do you remember the form that you 6 used back then titled, "Data Sheet of Properties, 7 Health hazards, and Precautions for Safe Handling of 8 Materials"? 9 A. The name is familiar. 10 Q. Well, it's sort of a forerunner of a Page 272 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 11 Material Safety Data Sheet in a way. Yes? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. What use would the technical - I'm sorry 14 the coatings technical service be making of asbestos 15 fibers at Dow in 1958, sir? 16 A. I don't know. 17 Q. Are you adquainted with any formulations for 18 floor tile that Dow worked on in the Fifties? 19 A. I'm not familiar with them. 20 Q. Did Dow, to your knowledge, ever manufacture 21 any floor tile? 22 A. Not to my knowledge. 23 Q. Would it have been making epoxy to sell to 24 others as a component of floor tile? 25 A. We made epoxies, yes. 307 1 Q. Was it the practice at Dow to experiment on 2 these component parts that it was selling to others, 3 such as the epoxy and floor tile? 4 MR. PIERCE: Objection to form of 5 the question. 6 A. Floor tile would - was in a rather curious 7 situation, I would think. 8 Q. Do you know who, if anybody, from your 9 company attended Dr. Selikoff's 1964 presentation on 10 asbestos health hazards in New York, sir? 11 A. I don't know. 12 Q. You didn't get to go, apparently. 13 A. I'm not sure. I don't know. 14 Q. When was it, Dr. Rowe, that Dow began to Page 273 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 15 fully warn about the hazards of asbestos dust on its 16 premises? 17 A. I don't know. 18 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form 19 of the question. 20 A. I don't know. 21 Q. When was it that Dow began to warn people on 22 its premises that asbestos could cause pleural changes 23 in the lung? 24 A. I don't know. 25 Q. When was it that Dow's industrial hygiene 308 1 department or anybody else at Dow began to warn people 2 working on Dow premises that asbestos dust could cause 3 a permanent lung scarring? 4 A. I don't know. 5 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the 6 form. 7 Q. When, Dr. Rowe, did D ow begin to warn people 8 working on its premises that as bestos could cause lung 9 cancer? 10 A. I don't know. 11 Q. And when was it that Dow began to warn 12 people working on its plants that asbestos dust could 13 cause mesothelioma? 14 A. I don't know. 15 Q. Do you recall yourself learning when 16 asbestos came to be known to cause mesothelioma - 17 A. No. Page 274 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 18 Q. -- or suspected of it? 19 A. No. 20 Q. You've heard of that disease before, sir, 21 have you not? 22 A. I've heard of it, yes; but I don't know 23 when. 24 Q. Do you think, sir, that it would be proper 25 to begin to warn people about the health hazards of a 309 1 material like asbestos at the point when you first 2 suspect the material of being toxic and causing 3 disease? 4 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form 5 of the question. 6 A. I think any time you can - you have 7 information of that nature it's well to distribute it 8 as far as possible. 9 Q. It was not the philosophy that you had that 10 you should wait for conclusive irrefutable scientific 11 evidence of a health hazard before warning the people 12 that might be exposed to a material, was it, sir? 13 MR. PIERCE: Objection to form of 14 the question and the terminology 15 "conclusive," "irrefutable," and 16 whatever else you used there. 17 But try to answer it, if you can. 18 A. I don't -- I don't know what was said or 19 what educational programs were in that theory. It's 20 desirable, of course, to do as much as you can. 21 Q. Well, as a toxicologist, was it your Page 275 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 22 personal view that you should not warn about a 23 suspected health hazard until you had conclusive 24 evidence of the hazard? 25 A. Well, you have to identify the hazard; but 310 1 then once it's known, certainly you should inform 2 people. 3 Q. Dr. Rowe, I have a document from among those 4 that you were kind enough to bring that you authored, 5 according to this. It's titled, "40 Years of Dow 6 Industrial Toxicology and Industrial Hygiene." 7 MR. PIERCE: Has that been marked, 8 Mr. Blanks? 9 10 (By Mr. Blanks) MR. BLANKS: Well, it hasn't yet. 11 Q. Do you remember that paper, sir, as one you 12 would have given somewhere around 1977 or so? 13 A. I remember the paper. 14 Q. Do you remember a version of it from a year 15 earlier? 16 A. I beg your pardon. 17 Q. Do you remember one that you gave with the 18 same title a year earlier? 19 A. No. I don't -- I don't know the time 20 frame. That's -- 21 Q. I found one that was titled, "39 Years of 22 Dow Industrial Toxiciology and Industrial Hygiene," 23 and then one titled "39 Years"; and they looked very 24 much alike. Page 276 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 25 MR. BLANKS: Do you have the other 311 1 one, Mr. Hobson? 2 (By Mr. Blanks) 3 Q. So, I couldn't figure out whether you 4 started to give it one year and didn't or you dusted 5 it off and snuck it in on them again the next year. 6 MR. PIERCE: There's no question. 7 Is there a question pending? 8 MR. BLANKS: You just raised one. 9 (PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT 760517 DOW 10 WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION 11 PURPOSES. SAME WILL BE FOUND IN 12 THE EXHIBIT VOLUMES ATTENDANT TO 13 THIS DEPOSITION.) 14 (By Mr. Blanks) 15 Q. Let me hand you these papers, sir, that 16 this -- This first one is titled, "39 years," 17 etcetera; and I've marked it 760517 DOW. It's said to 18 have been presented at the Dow Global Physicians 19 Meeting held at Newport, Rhode Island, May 17th of 20 '76. And the companion to it appeared to be the same 21 document with writing on it and a strike-out that 22 takes the 39 years up to 40. That's what perplexed me 23 a little. And I know your lawyer doesn't want you to 24 have your documents back but... 25 MR. BLANKS: You through reviewing Page 277 312 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 1 his document there? 2 MR. PIERCE: Well, I certainly 3 intend to review all of the parts 4 that you've put stickums on and 5 notations, - 6 MR. BLANKS: Well, please, carry 7 on. 8 MR. PIERCE: -- which I think is 9 appropriate. 10 Q. Dr. Rowe, do you - 11 MR. PIERCE: Just permit me to do 12 that - and plus your underlinings, plus 13 your notations. I think that's 14 appropriate 15 (By Mr. Blanks) 16 Q. Do you remember giving the paper twice or is 17 that - 18 A. I don't remember giving it twice. Could 19 well have been, though. 20 Q. Okay. 21 MR. PIERCE: Are you going to mark 22 for identification the one entitled 23 "39 years," Mr. Blanks? 24 MR. BLANKS: Well, we'll see what 25 we can figure out about it. 313 1 (By Mr. Blanks) 2 Q. Is the one that your lawyer is holding there 3 that's been written on, is that - is that - does that Page 278 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 4 carry your handwriting on there, sir? 5 A. It looks like it. Probably I cleaned up my 6 language. 7 MR. BLANKS: Well, for convenience 8 let's just connect those two and treat 9 them as one exhibit as labeled since 10 it's - It's the same type document but 11 with the written material on it. 12 MR. PIERCE: You mean you want "39 13 years" and the one "40 years" with all 14 the changes to be identified as a 15 single document? 16 MR. BLANKS: Sure. Why not? 17 MR. PIERCE: It's your choice. 18 Q. Now, I've got another typed version here, 19 Dr. Rowe, from your documents that you brought from 20 home that, as typed, says "40 Years of Dow Industrial 21 Toxicology and Industrial Hygiene" and shows you to be 22 the author of it. Would that be -- Would that be so, 23 sir? 24 MR. PIERCE: Could you hand it 25 over so that the witness can look at 314 1 it; or do you expect him to read it 2 from across the room, sir? 3 MR. BLANKS: (Tendering document) 4 MR. PIERCE: Oh, I see you have 5 some stick-ons again. Have you made 6 any underlinings? Page 279 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 7 MR. BLANKS: Well, you can 8 probably assume that I have. 9 (By Mr. Blanks) 10 Q. Do you recall when or where you gave that 11 paper, Dr. Rowe? 12 A. No. I don't recall where, but I gave it. 13 (PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT 770000 DOW 14 WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION 15 PURPOSES. SAME WILL BE FOUND IN 16 THE EXHIBIT VOLUMES ATTENDANT TO 17 THIS DEPOSITION.) 18 (By Mr. Blanks) 19 Q. Okay. I've labeled that, the latter one, 20 770000 DOW for lack of a better date, inferring that 21 you did give it the year after '76; and it looks like 22 you did. 23 A. Was it the case, Dr. Rowe, that in a lot of 24 your professional writings and your professional 25 presentations that you did express your professional 315 1 opinions, based on your best knowledge and beliefs and 2 the information that you had at that time that you 3 wrote them or published it? 4 MR. PIERCE: Objection to the form 5 of the question. 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. One other thing, sir: Are the handwritten 8 notes on 770000 DOW your handwriting, sir? 9 A. That's the one we just looked at? 10 Q. Yes. Page 280 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 11 A. No, that's not my handwriting. 12 Q. Okay. Dr. Rowe, whe n did somebody first 13 contact you about giving a deposition in these cases? 14 A. I don't know. 15 Q. Was it the case that somebody from Dow did 16 contact you about testifying? 17 A. They indicated this might be required. 18 Q. Do you remember who it was, sir? 19 A. I think it -- No. I'm not sure. 20 Q. Okay. Is it one of the gentlemen here with 21 us today? 22 A. I think it was -- I think it was Mr. Stuart. 23 Q. All right, sir. 24 about - And what did he tell you 25 MR. PIERCE: Obj ection. 316 1 Obj ection. 2 Q. -- what was likely to be involved here? 3 MR. PIERCE: Look, I'm 4 representing Mr. Rowe here; and 5 although Dow is capable of taking care 6 of itself, certainly we're not going to 7 get into any conversations between 8 either Mr. Rowe and myself as his 9 attorney nor Dow which apparently 10 offered him up. So, let's cut this 11 business and not get to attorney-client 12 privileged areas, please. 13 MR. ALMQUIST: On behalf of Dow Page 281 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 14 Chemical - And I am here representing 15 Dow Chemical - I would object and raise 16 the attorney-client privilege for any 17 communications that were had with 18 Mr. Rowe as a former employee of Dow 19 concerning this lawsuit in which Dow is 20 a party. 21 Q. Then I'll repeat my question to you, sir. 22 What did people from Dow say to you about the 23 deposition say to you about the today, sir? 24 MR. PIERCE: I direct you not to 25 answer that question, Dr. Rowe. 317 1 Q. I take it that you're not going to answer me 2 because this man has told you not to, sir. Is that 3 right? 4 MR. PIERCE: His lawyer has told 5 him not to answer that question, that 6 it's a privileged communication. 7 Q. Dr. Rowe - 8 MR. BLANKS: Wait. You're 9 asserting the privilege on behalf of 10 Dow, sir, are you? 11 MR. ALMQUIST: I'm asserting 12 privilege on behalf of Dow. 13 MR. BLANKS: Oh. Well, then are 14 you instructing him not to answer, 15 Mr. Almquist? 16 MR. PIERCE: I have raised the 17 attorney-client objection to this Page 282 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 18 communication. I believe it is a 19 privileged communication. 20 (By Mr. Blanks). 21 Q. Okay. So, Mr. Rowe, there is no issue 22 between you and your attorney, I believe, in terms of 23 privileged communications yet. 24 MR. PIERCE: I'm going to direct 25 my client not to answer things that are 318 1 obviously privileged whether it's a 2 privilege between myself and Dr. Rowe 3 or in respect to Dow. What is improper 4 is improper; and I as his attorney know 5 it's improper, as you do or should. 6 MR. BLANKS: I know there's 7 something improper here, sir. We're 8 trying to get to the root of it for the 9 jury's benefit. 10 MR. ALMQUIST: I object to that 11 statement and ask that it be stricken 12 from the record as an argumentative 13 speech. 14 (By Mr. Blanks) 15 Q. Dr. Rowe, are either of these two gentlemen 16 seated on your right, Mr. Almquist or Mr. Stuart, here as 17 your attorneys today? 18 A. Are they what? 19 Q. Are they your attorneys? Have you hired 20 either of these two young lawyers to your right to Page 283 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 21 represent you today, sir? 22 A. No, sir. 23 Q. When did you first meet the gentleman to 24 your - to your right - I'm sorry - to your left who's 25 here as your attorney today? 319 1 A. I don't remember. 2 Q. Can you tell us what his name is, sir? 3 A. His name is Stanley Pierce. 4 Q. When did you -- When did you hire Mr. Pierce 5 present you, sir? 6 A. I didn't. 7 Q. All right, sir. And who did hire him to 8 represent you, The Dow Chemical Company? 9 A. No, sir. 10 Q. Did anybody hire him to represent you? 11 A. I hired nobody to represent me. 12 Q. So, this gentleman is not your attorney, 13 then, sir; is that right? 14 MR. PIERCE: Did you ask that I 15 represent you here, Dr. Rowe? 16 MR. BLANKS: Excuse me, sir. 17 You'll have the opportunity to 18 cross-examine. 19 (By Mr. Blanks) 20 Q. So, you're not paying Mr. Pierce to 21 represent you? 22 A. No, sir. 23 Q. And you did not hire him? 24 MR. ALMQUIST: I'm going to object Page 284 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 25 to any questions as to who is paying 320 1 Mr. Pierce as being improper 2 questions. 3 Q. I'm sorry. Dr. Rowe, you're not paying this 4 gentleman to be here as your attorney, are you, sir? 5 MR. PIERCE: I direct him not to 6 answer that. 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Do you understand, sir, that Dow Chemical 9 may be paying this man to appear here? Sir? 10 A. It was my understanding. 11 Q. Okay. Do you also understand that this 12 Mr. Pierce is a - frequently an attorney who 13 represents - or frequently represents Dow Chemical 14 Company in litigation? 15 A. I know he has. 16 Q. And do you know that - what city he's 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. He's from New York, isn't he? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Do you know how you came to make his 21 acquaintance at all? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Are you being hired by Dow to be a 24 consultant in any of this litigation we're here to 25 testify about today? Page 285 321 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 1 A. I presume so. 2 Q. Have you made an arrangement with them to 3 pay you for your time, sir? 4 A. They have offered to do that. 5 Q. Are you going to let them do that? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And how much are they paying you for your 8 time? 9 A. I would believe that would be a personal 10 question that is probably not anybody's business. 11 Q. Well, you know, I might be inclined to agree 12 with you; but nontheless the jury has a right, I 13 think, to know what you're being paid by Dow to 14 consult with them, sir. 15 A. There have been no agreements made. 16 Q. So, you haven't given them any figure; and 17 they haven't suggested one? 18 A. Pardon? 19 Q. You haven't told them - given them a rate, 20 and they haven't suggested one? 21 A. I have not. 22 Q. You're still receiving a pension from Dow, 23 are you not? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Do you own any Dow stock? 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Okay. How much? Page 286 322 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 3 MR. PIERCE: Look, I'm going to - 4 I'm going to direct you not to answer. 5 I don't see what the relevancy 6 is. He told you he owns Dow stock. 7 That's sufficient. I think we're going 8 way overboard in asking him those kinds 9 of things about his personal finances. 10 You really have the information you 11 need when you know he owns some Dow 12 stock. 13 MR. BLANKS: You know, that 14 thought just occurred to me, too. 15 (By Mr. Blanks) 16 Q. My apologies, Dr. Rowe. Dr. Rowe, I'd like 17 you to tell me about the conversations you've had with 18 Mr. Pierce concerning this litigation and this 19 deposition. 20 MR. PIERCE: I direct you not to 21 answer as attorney-client privilege. 22 MR. BLANKS: Dr. Rowe has already 23 stated you are not his attorney, sir. 24 You may be Dow's attorney but you are 25 not in a position to instruct this 323 1 witness and you do so at Dow's peril, 2 sir. 3 MR. PIERCE: No. I'm going to 4 instruct this witness. This witness 5 has specifically asked for me to 6 represent him here. And because you've Page 287 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 7 confused him in some of the questions, 8 I'm not going to change that 9 relationship. I direct the witness not 10 to answer that question. 11 (By Mr. Blanks) 12 Q. Dr. Rowe, are you refusing, then, sir, to 13 fell me about what Mr. Pierce told you to say or not 14 say or what might be asked or not asked in this 15 deposition? 16 MR. PIERCE: I object. I direct 17 the witness not to answer, and I also 18 object to your saying anything in 19 respect to what I've told the witness 20 to say as outrageous statement on your 21 part. 22 Q. Dr. Rowe, when did you learn that Dow was 23 going to arrange for this New York lawyer to appear 24 here at this deposition allegedly to represent you, 25 sir? 324 1 MR. PIERCE: Well, first of all, 2 I'd like to object to the 3 characterization of me as a "New York 4 lawyer." I certainly am familiar with 5 Dr. Rowe. Dr. Rowe asked that I 6 represent him. And I am not a New York 7 City lawyer, just - just for your own 8 edification, Mr. Blanks. 9 Q. Sir, are you going to answer me or not? Page 288 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 10 MR. PIERCE: Let's hear that 11 question again, please. 12 Q. The question was, when did you learn that 13 Dow had arranged for Mr. Pierce to appear here at this 14 deposition for you, sir? - to be with you. 15 A. I believe it was on Monday this week. 16 Q. And you hadn't asked to have an attorney 17 represent you at the deposition, had you, sir? 18 A. I expected to have an attorney representing 19 me, yes. 20 Q. And did you expect Dow to provide one of 21 their lawyers to represent you? 22 A. I didn't know how they were going to handle 23 it. I'm only an instrument. 24 Q. All right, sir. 25 MR. HOBSON: We need to change the 325 1 tape (directed to Mr. Blanks). 2 MR. BLANKS: Okay. Change - 3 MR. PIERCE: Wait. Leave 4 that -- Are you -- Is that the end of 5 the tape now? Leave it on for a 6 second. 7 If that is the end of the tape, 8 let me say that this deposition is now 9 concluded. You've had the amount of 10 time agreed upon. And with all due 11 respect and admiration which I happen 12 to have for Herschel Hobson: This has 13 been a travesty these two days of Page 289 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 14 irrelevancies and redundancies and 15 constant asking of leading and compound 16 questions; and we have now concluded 17 this matter. 18 (By Mr. Blanks) 19 Q. Dr. Rowe, are you available to continue 20 tomorrow or Monday, sir? 21 MR. PIERCE: Dr. Rowe is not 22 continuing. This deposition is at an 23 end right now. Thank you. You can go 24 to the Court for relief. 25 MR. BLANKS: Mr. Almquist, are you 326 1 going to terminate this deposition at 2 this point? 3 MR. ALMQUIST: I believe that the 4 deposition has been terminated. 5 MR. BLANKS: We are prepared to 6 continue pursuant to the notice either 7 tomorrow or on Monday at Dr. Rowe's 8 convenience and would like to know what 9 your pleasure is. 10 MR. ALMQUIST: I will be in trial 11 in Conroe, Texas, on Monday, 12 Mr. Blanks. So, my pleasure has been 13 preordained. 14 Q. Dr. Rowe, will you - 15 MR. PIERCE: Come (di rected to the 16 witness). Page 290 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 17 Q. -- be available, sir, at some -18 MR. PIERCE: Let's go, Dr. Rowe. 19 Q. -- point in time... 20 (AT THIS TIME MR. PIERCE AND THE 21 WITNESS LEAVE THE ROOM.) 22 MR. BLANKS: Let the record 23 reflect that Mr. Pierce, the New York 24 lawyer, has instructed Dr. Rowe, who 25 has said he is not represented by 327 1 Mr. Pierce, to leave the deposition and 2 walk out without answering the 3 questions; that counsel present are 4 prepared to either continue at this 5 time, depending upon the comfort and 6 convenience of Dr. Rowe, or to continue 7 tomorrow morning at his pleasure or on 8 Monday or at such time as soon 9 thereafter as is convenient to the 10 witness; and that all other parties are 11 present - remain present and apparently 12 are awaiting their opportunity to 13 cross-examine this witness. 14 Mr. Almquist, is it the position 15 of Dow Chemical that Dr. Rowe -16 MR. ALMQUIST: I have nothing to 17 say on the record, Mr. Blanks. You can 18 understand -19 MR. BLANKS: I'm sorry. Sir? 20 MR. ALMQUIST: I have nothing more Page 291 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 21 to say on the record. 22 MR. BLANKS: Well, it's my 23 understanding that you had presented 24 this man and requested us not to have 25 him served with a subpoena, which we 328 1 were certainly happy to do, based upon 2 your representation that he would be 3 available, that we were going to limit 4 the time we spent each day to a couple 5 hours in the morning and in the 6 afternoon because of the gentleman's 7 reputed ill health and his admitted 8 age. And we have done that out of 9 consideration to him. And we want to 10 finish our deposition. And as you 11 tendered him voluntarily and 12 courteously, we think we're entitled to 13 an answer on what your intentions are 14 as to the completion of this 15 deposition. 16 MR. ALMQUIST: And I have nothing 17 more to add at this point, Mr. Blanks. 18 I'm not going to get into a discussion 19 like this on the record. 20 MR. BLANKS: Mr. Stuart, you are 21 here as a counsel for Dow. I beg you 22 for some indication of what Dow's 23 intentions are with respect to the Page 292 Rowe- Verald-K-100192.txt 24 conclusion of this gentleman's 25 deposition, sir. 329 1 MR. STUART: (No response) 2 MR. BLANKS: We're respectful of 3 his time and his condition if, indeed, 4 he does have a health problem; but 5 we've relied on the representations of 6 your counsel and through him of your 7 company to appear under these 8 circumstances and on this schedule. 9 MR. ALMQUIST: The representations 10 of which you speak, I believe, are 11 probably in writing and will speak for 12 themselves; so, needless to say, I 13 think we can stop this young lady's 14 incessant work on the keyboard at this 15 point. 16 MR. BLANKS: Then I take it 17 Mr. Stuart has no comment; and I'd 18 like the record to reflect that, as 19 well. 20 For the record, I want to attach 21 the remaining documents that were 22 brought to the deposition in response 23 to the subpoena duces tecum; and we'll 24 take this opportunity to go through 25 them and describe them with the labels Page 293 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 330 1 that we've placed on them. 2 Mr. Hobson, do you have those 3 papers? 4 MR. HOBSON: Yes. 5 MR. BLANKS: And I also would 6 suggest to Mr. Almquist that if we 7 can't resolve this amicably that we 8 will be forced to go before the Court 9 and regretfully ask for sanctions and 10 expenses in connection with this, 11 particularly with the flagrant 12 misconduct of - what appears to be that 13 of the outside counsel Dow has hired 14 here who purports to represent 15 Mr. Rowe. 16 17 18 (PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT 760600 DOW 19 WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION 20 PURPOSES. SAME WILL BE FOUND IN 21 THE EXHIBIT VOLUMES ATTENDANT TO 22 THIS DEPOSITION.) 23 We've labeled as Document 760600 24 DOW the -25 MR. HOBSON: Can we do without the 331 1 video recording? 2 MR. BLANKS: Yes. We'll turn off Page 294 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 3 the video now so we can get through 4 this business. 5 -- (continuing) the document 6 brought by Dr. Rowe titled, "A 7 historical Account of Dow's 8 Environmental Stewardship," by Eugene 9 E. Kenega, K-e-n-e-g-a, said to be from 10 an internal report of Dow Chemical 11 U.S.A., comma, June 1976. 12 (PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT 740000 WHO 13 546 WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION 14 PURPOSES. SAME WILL BE FOUND IN 15 THE EXHIBIT VOLUMES ATTENDANT TO 16 THIS DEPOSITION.) 17 We've labeled as Exhibit 740000 18 WHO 546 a document brought by Dr. Rowe 19 entitled, "Assessment of the 20 Carcinogenicity and Mutagenicity of 21 Chemicals," said to be the report of a 22 W.H.O., World Health O rganization, 23 scientific group from 1974 and being 24 four pages in length. 25 (PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT 780814 DOW, 332 1 WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION 2 PURPOSES. SAME WILL BE FOUND IN 3 THE EXHIBIT VOLUMES ATTENDANT TO 4 THIS DEPOSITION.) 5 Labeled as Exhibit 780814 DOW, a Page 295 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 6 document titled, "'Clinical Toxicology' 7 Viewed from an Industrial Setting," by 8 P. J. Gehring, G-e-h-r-i-n-g, of the 9 Toxicology Research Laboratory, Health 10 and Environmental Research, Dow 11 Chemical Company in Midland, Michigan, 12 being a symposium on clinical 13 toxicology apparently presented at the 14 Joint Fall Meeting of the American 15 Society of Pharmacology and 16 Experimental Therapeutics and Society 17 of Toxicology, Houston, Texas, 18 August 14th, 1978, bearing some 19 handwritten notes of unknown origin but 20 likely of Dr. Rowe. 21 (PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT 790518 DOW 22 WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION 23 PURPOSES. SAME WILL BE FOUND IN 24 THE EXHIBIT VOLUMES ATTENDANT TO 25 THIS DEPOSITION.) 333 1 Exhibit 790518 DOW is a document 2 titled, "Dedication Address," 3 Northwestern University Cancer Center, 4 by Philip Handler, President of the 5 National Academy of Sciences, on 6 May l8th, 1979, showing it was received 7 at C.M.S.A. on July 16th of 1979, and 8 indicating carbon copies to a variety 9 of persons on the front page and having Page 296 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 10 some underlines at different places in 11 the text as it was given to us by 12 Dr. Rowe yesterday afternoon. 13 (PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT 740919 DOW 14 WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION 15 PURPOSES. SAME WILL BE FOUND IN 16 THE EXHIBIT VOLUMES ATTENDANT TO 17 THIS DEPOSITION.) 18 Labeled as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 19 740919 DOW is a document titled, "Some 20 Basic Concepts of Toxicology and Some 21 Thoughts about the Development and Use 22 of Toxicological Information," authored 23 by V. K. Rowe as director, 24 Toxicological Affairs, Health and 25 Environmental Research, Dow Chemical 334 1 U.S.A. And at the bottom of this page, 2 it notes that it was for presentation 3 at the National Paint and Coatings 4 Association Meeting at The Homestead, 5 Hot Springs, Virginia, September 19th, 6 1974. 7 (PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT 751021 DOW 8 WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION 9 PURPOSES. SAME WILL BE FOUND IN 10 THE EXHIBIT VOLUMES ATTENDANT TO 11 THIS DEPOSITION.) 12 Labeled as Plaintiffs' Page 297 Rowe- Verald-K-100192.txt 13 Exhibit 751021 DOW is a document 14 titled, "Concerns of Industry Related 15 to Carcinogenic Hazards," authored by 16 P. J. Gehring, D.V.M., Ph.D., and V. K. 17 Rowe, Sc.D. It appears this paper, as 18 adapted by V. K. Rowe for presentation 19 at the Sixth Annual Conference on 20 Environmental Toxicology was presented 21 at a meeting held at the Biltmore 22 Towers Hotel in Dayton, Ohio, on 23 October 21st through 23rd, 1975, notes 24 the original paper in its entirety was 25 presented by P. J. Gehring at the 335 1 National Meeting of Comprehensive 2 Cancer Centers of the United States, at 3 Duke, in Durham on April 10th, 1975. 4 MR. ALMQUIST: Not having seen the 5 document, to the extent that there is 6 editoral comments added by Mr. Blanks, 7 I would object to those and state that 8 the document will speak for itself. 9 MR. BLANKS: The face of the 10 document certainly speaks for itself; 11 but I thought for your convenience, 12 Mr. Almquist, I'd have a little excerpt 13 from the face of it in the text so you 14 wouldn't have to go looking for it in a 15 long volume. 16 (PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT 780000 NIH Page 298 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 17 1594 WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION 18 PURPOSES. SAME WILL BE FOUND IN 19 THE EXHIBIT VOLUMES ATTENDANT TO 20 THIS DEPOSITION.) 21 Labeled as Plaintiffs' 22 Exhibit 780000 NIH is a photocopy of a 23 booklet Dr. Rowe brought from his 24 personal files entitled, "Asbestos 25 Exposure: What It Means, What To Do," 336 1 and appearing on its face to be a 2 Department of Health, Education, and 3 Welfare Publication No. (NIH) 78-1594. 4 Let's change this exhibit number 5 to 780000 NIH 1594 to be consistent 6 with the title that's been put on it. 7 (PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT 780421 8 WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION 9 PURPOSES. SAME WILL BE FOUND IN 10 THE EXHIBIT VOLUMES ATTENDANT TO 11 THIS DEPOSITION.) 12 Plaintiffs' Exhibit 780421 DOW is 13 titled, "Overview -- Science Society 14 and Health Risk Control," authored by 15 V. K. Rowe and, according to the 16 document, was presented at the American 17 Bar Association Institute Program on 18 Law, Science, and Technology and Health 19 Risk Regulation April 20th and 21st at Page 299 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 20 the Mayflower Hotel, Washington, D.C 21 (PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT 780900 NIOSH 22 WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION 23 PURPOSES. SAME WILL BE FOUND IN 24 THE EXHIBIT VOLUMES ATTENDANT TO 25 THIS DEPOSITION.) 337 1 Plaintiffs' Exhibit 780900 NIOSH 2 is a two-page excerpt from a document 3 titled, "NIOSH/OSHA Pocket Guide to 4 Chemical Hazards," brought by Dr. Rowe 5 from his personal library and appearing 6 on its face to have been published in 7 September of 1978 by the U.S. 8 Department of Health Education and 9 Welfare and the U.S. Department of 10 Labor. 11 MR. HOBSON: Mr. Almquist told us 12 that he copied only the first couple of 13 pages of this because it was in the 14 public domain. 15 (PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT 790423 C&EN 16 WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION 17 PURPOSES. SAME WILL BE FOUND IN 18 THE EXHIBIT VOLUMES ATTENDANT TO 19 THIS DEPOSITION.) 20 MR. BLANKS: The next is 21 Plaintiffs' Exhibit 790423 C&EN, being 22 pages 23 through 50 of what would 23 appear to be articles from the Page 300 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 24 publication Chemical and Engineering 25 News. 338 1 (PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT 790900 DOW 2 WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION 3 PURPOSES. SAME WILL BE FOUND IN 4 THE EXHIBIT VOLUMES ATTENDANT TO 5 THIS DEPOSITION.) 6 The next document is Plaintiffs' 7 Exhibit 790900 DOW titled, "Industrial 8 Hyg iene - Truly an Interdisciplinary 9 Science, authored by V. K. Rowe, and 10 appearing in the American Industrial 11 Hyg iene Association Journal in 1979. 12 (PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT 791004 DOW 13 WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION 14 PURPOSES. SAME WILL BE FOUND IN 15 THE EXHIBIT VOLUMES ATTENDANT TO 16 THIS DEPOSITION.) 17 Plaintiffs' Exhibit 791004 DOW is 18 the document brought by Dr. Rowe, 19 titled, "Environmentally Induced 20 Cancer... Separating Truth from Myth," 21 appearing to be a talk by Dr. Harry 22 Demopoulos of the New York University 23 Medical Center, presented to the 24 Synthetic Organic Manufacturers 25 Chemical Association October 4th, 1979, Page 301 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 339 1 in Hasbrouck Heights, New Jersey. 2 (PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT 801013 DOW 3 WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION 4 PURPOSES. SAME WILL BE FOUND IN 5 THE EXHIBIT VOLUMES ATTENDANT TO 6 THIS DEPOSITION.) 7 Plaintiffs' Exhibit 801013 DOW is 8 a ten-page set of papers stapled 9 together, as it was produced by the Dow 10 attorneys, bearing on the cover page a 11 date of October 13th, 1980, on a Dow 12 letterhead, and being a letter from 13 John R. Venable, V-e-n-a-b-l-e, M.D., 14 to Peter F. Infante, I-n-f-a-n-t-e, at 15 the U.S. Department of Labor, 16 Occupational Health and Safety 17 Administration, followed by other 18 correspondence, a photocopy of an item 19 from a newspaper, and a two-page item 20 from some other publication, the 21 Current Report from the B.N.A.; and, 22 finally, a photocopy of a form bearing 23 the title "Who's Who in Science and 24 Eng ineering" with what would appear to 25 be a signature of V. K. Rowe, dated 340 1 6-29-91, and setting out apparently his Page 302 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 2 professional credentials 3 MR. ALMQUIST: And let me just say 4 on the record that Mr. Blanks 5 characterized that as a document 6 produced by Dow's attorneys. That was 7 a document that Mr. Rowe had provided 8 in response to the subpoena duces 9 tecum. It's not being produced by Dow 10 or Dow's attorneys. 11 MR. BLANKS: Well, my apologies. 12 It was, in fact, handed to me by the 13 Dow attorney; and I understood it to be 14 produced by Mr. Rowe, as Mr. Almquist 15 stated. 16 And to be certain, we've marked 17 as Exhibit 141005 ROWE V. K. the 18 curriculum vitae brought by Dr. Rowe. 19 (PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT 810000 FCT 20 WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION 21 PURPOSES. SAME WILL BE FOUND IN 22 THE EXHIBIT VOLUMES ATTENDANT TO 23 THIS DEPOSITION.) 24 Exhibit 810000 FCT is a collection 25 of material brought by Dr. Rowe that is 341 1 titled, "Twenty Years of Toxicology," 2 and indicates contents of various 3 articles on the topic of toxicology, 4 not all of which are included in the 5 package, but most of which are. Page 303 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 6 (PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT 801100 ACSH 7 WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION 8 PURPOSES. SAME WILL BE FOUND IN 9 THE EXHIBIT VOLUMES ATTENDANT TO 10 THIS DEPOSITION.) 11 Plaintiffs' Exhibit labeled as 12 801100 ACSH is a photocopy Dr. Rowe 13 brought of what appears to be an issue 14 of the American Council on Science and 15 Health News and Views shown to be a 16 addressed to Dr. John A. Zapp, Jr., a 17 consultant in toxicology and industrial 18 hygiene in Kennett Square, 19 Pennsylvania, and showing on its face 20 to be Volume I, No. 6, from November 21 and December of 1980 of News and 22 Views. 23 (PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT 820200 OH&S 24 WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION 25 PURPOSES. SAME WILL BE FOUND IN 342 1 THE EXHIBIT VOLUMES ATTENDANT TO 2 THIS DEPOSITION.) 3 Plaintiffs have labeled as 4 Exhibit 820200 OH&S, being pages 30 5 through 34 of what appears to be the 6 February 1982 issue of a publication 7 called Occupational Health and Safety. 8 And the article is entitled, Page 304 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 9 "Untangling the Asbestos Mess." 10 MR. HOBSON: I'm trying to catch a 11 plane. 12 MR. BLANKS: Are you leaving me? 13 Well, okay. It's been nice seeing you, 14 Herschel. Stop around some time. 15 (PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT 840209 NIOSH 16 WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION 17 PURPOSES. SAME WILL BE FOUND IN 18 THE EXHIBIT VOLUMES ATTENDANT TO 19 THIS DEPOSITION.) 20 Plaintiffs' have labeled as 21 Exhibit 840209 NIOSH a document brought 22 by Dr. Rowe titled, "Current 23 Intelligence Bulletin 41," on 24 1,3-Butadiene, appearing to be 25 published by the U.S. Department of 343 1 Health and Human Services. 2 (PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT 841017 DOW 3 WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION 4 PURPOSES. SAME WILL BE FOUND IN 5 THE EXHIBIT VOLUMES ATTENDANT TO 6 THIS DEPOSITION.) 7 Labeled as Plaintiffs' 8 Exhibit 841017 DOW is a document 9 brought by Dr. Rowe, titled, 10 "Toxicology in Michigan Today, Risk 11 Assessment in Toxicology: Yesterday, 12 Today and Tomorrow," with a date of Page 305 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 13 October 17th, 1984, and showing on the 14 program within a presentation by 15 Dr. Verald K. Rowe titled, "From the 16 Past: Experience in Toxicological 17 Hazard Evaluation," followed by 18 material prepared on a typewriter and 19 with handwritten notes thereon. 20 (PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT 841018 DOW 21 WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION 22 PURPOSES. SAME WILL BE FOUND IN 23 THE EXHIBIT VOLUMES ATTENDANT TO 24 THIS DEPOSITION.) 25 Plaintiffs' Exhibit 841018 DOW is 344 1 a document produced by Dr. Rowe titled, 2 "'Experimentation, Experience, and the 3 Media,'" a Symposium of Media, Science, 4 Industry and Public Officials," held in 5 Midland, Michigan, on October 18th, 6 1984, sponsored by The Dow Chemical 7 Company and indicating the subjects on 8 which talks were given and appearing to 9 contain three pages listing symposium 10 attendees including V. K. Rowe and 11 other Dow Chemical Company employees. 12 So, I would ask that you attach 13 all of these, Ms. Reporter, as exhibits 14 to the deposition arranging them in the 15 numerical order in which they've been Page 306 Rowe- Verald-K-100192.txt 16 labeled. 17 MR. ALMQUIST: And we will 18 probably have substantive objections to 19 some of those in terms of their being 20 hearsay in nature. I just want to 21 preserve that for the record. 22 I just would point out that I'm 23 still here, the attorney for Dow 24 Chemical, at the conclusion of the 25 record here today. 345 1 Mr. Blanks, I believe that you 2 will find in your files a letter from 3 me where on behalf of Dow we agreed to 4 make Mr. Rowe available on October 1st 5 and 2nd for two hours in the morning 6 and two hours in the afternoon. We've 7 not retained Mr. Rowe as an expert 8 witness in this case to give trial 9 testimony. We are seeking his 10 testimony as a fact witness. We have 11 agreed to compensate him for his time 12 to come here today to give that 13 testimony. Beyond that we have no 14 control over Mr. Rowe, and we have been 15 informed in no uncertain terms that 16 Mr. Rowe has an attorney, Mr. Pierce. 17 And Mr. Pierce will not listen to what 18 we have to say. 19 MR. BLANKS: Well, I do not have Page 307 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 20 any knowledge of the letter, although I 21 certainly can't imagine that you would 22 misspeak about its contents. And the 23 matter of Mr. Pierce remains, of 24 course, to be brought before the Court, 25 and likely will be. Thank you for your 346 1 courtesy and your silence. 2 Are we are off the record now? 3 Do you have anything to say? 4 MR. RUSSELL: No. Just that I'm 5 also still here and that I object to 6 the early termination without any 7 notice or opportunity for people to ask 8 questions and that if the matter is 9 brought before the Court, I'd like to 10 request that whoever is sanctioned will 11 have to pay for all of us to come back 12 out here and resume the deposition. 13 I'm leaving. 14 MR. BLANKS: Good bye. 15 Okay, guys. 16 (AT THIS TIME, APPROXIMATELY, 17 3:05 P.M., THE PROCEEDINGS OF 18 OCTOBER 2, 1992, WERE CONCLUDED.) 19 20 21 22 Page 308 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 23 24 25 347 1 THE STATE OF ARIZONA 2 COUNTY OF 3 4 I, VERALD K. ROWE, hereby certify that I 5 have read the foregoing transcript of my testimony 6 given in the foregoing numbered and styled case, and 7 that same is true and correct to the best of my 8 knowledge and belief. 9 I further certify that any and all 10 corrections have been made on a separate page and 11 initialed by me. 12 This day of , 19 . 13 14 15 VERALD K. ROWE 16 SWORN TO AND SUBSCRIBED BEFORE ME this 17 day of , 19 . 18 19 NOTARY PUBLIC 20 My C ommission Expires: 21 22 23 24 25 Page 309 Rowe-Verald-K-100192.txt 348 1 THE STATE OF TEXAS : 2 COUNTY OF JEFFERSON: 3 I, SANDRA S. SULLIVAN, a Certified Shorthand 4 Reporter for the State of Texas, hereby certify 5 pursuant to the Texas Rules of Civil Procedure and/or 6 agreement of the parties present to the following: 7 8 That this deposition transcript is a true 9 record of the testimony given by Verald K. Rowe, the 10 Witness named herein, on October 1, 1992, and 11 October 2, 1992, after said Witness was duly sworn by 12 me. 13 14 SWORN TO AND SUBSCRIBED by me on the 15 23rd day of October, 1992. 16 17 18 SANDRA S. SULLIVAN, CSR, RPR 19 Certification No.: 2411 Expiration Date: 12-31-93 20 Business Address: Charlotte Smith Reporting, Inc. 21 235 Orleans Beaumont, Texas 77701 22 Telephone: (409) 839-4407 23 24 25 Page 310