Document Nd2BZB6eGV63qDoR45GxgGzg
FILE NAME: Kaiser Gypsum (KG) DATE: 1998 Nov 4 DOC#: KG050 DOCUMENT DESCRIPTION: Legal - Deposition of Joseph Ross Hobby
Pickner vs. Owens-Coming Joseph Ross Hobby Page 1 to Page 119
11/4/98
Condensed Transcript and Concordance Prepared by:
lo o ke r & Antz Court Reporting and Video Services
818 Mission Street, 5th Floor San Francisco, CA 94103 Phone: (415) 392-0650 FAX: (415) 512-9543
Pickner vs. Owens-Coming Joseph Ross Hobby
11/4/98
X M A X (t/1 )
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1*31 (111
Kaiser Gypsum in the Pickner case. (5) THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The reporter may swear in (6) the deponent, m
<8) JOSEPH R. HOBBY if) having been duly sworn, (io) testified as follows: (in EXAMINATION BY MR. BERGMAN <::) MR. BERGMAN: Q. Could you please state your (i3) full name for the record, sir? 14) A. Joseph Ross Hobby. (is) Q. And where do you live? 16) A. I live in Danville, California. (17) Q. And what is your current position? (is) A. Vice President Human Resources for Kaiser a?) Materials Corporation. (2 0 ) Q. And how long have you held that position, sir? (2 D A. Approximately five years. (22) Q. Sir, I'm handing you what has been marked as (23) Plaintiffs Exhibit 1 which is the Notice of Deposition in (24) this case and ask you to look at it, please, and I have a (2S) few questions to ask you regarding this notice.
Page 7
(i> (WHEREUPON, PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBITS 1 THROUGH 13 (2) WERE MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION). (3) THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Ladies and gentlemen, we (4) are on the video record on November 4, 1998. And the time ts> is 9:39 a.m. I'm Steve Leftwich, a certified notary public <6> for the County of San Mateo representing Tooker & Antz, 818 (7) Mission Street, 5th Floor, San Francisco, California 94103. (8> Telephone area code 415-392-0650.
9) This is the beginning of Videotape 1, Volume I (io) in the case of SylvinW. Pickner and Evelyn I. Pickner <i d versus Owens Corning, et al., in the Superior Court of d 2 ) Washington for King County, Case No. 98-2-09390-1 SEA for (13) the deposition of Joseph Hobby, a) The deposition is located at the offices of as Jackson & Wallace, 580 California Street, San Francisco, (i6> California, noticed by attorneys for plaintiff and the (n> videotape is produced by plaintiff. (is Counsel, would you please identify yourselves (19) and your clients? (2 0 ) MR. BERGMAN: Matthew Bergman for the (2D plaintiff. (22) MS. JACKSON: Gabriel Jackson for Kaiser <23> Gypsum. (24) MS. STEELE: Katherine Steele for E.J. (25) Bartells.
Page 8
(1) MR. CLARK: Paul Clark for W.R. Grace. (2 ) MR. PETTY: This is Ken Petty on the (3) telephone, Washington counselor
Page 9
(i) This is a 30(b)(6) deposition on various (2) topics relating to this case. And I want to go through (3i those topics with you briefly this morning. The first (4) topic, and that's toward the bottom of Page 1, is Kaiser (5i Gypsum's corporate history, organization, and governance (6) between 1957 and 1977. Are you the witness that Kaiser (7) Gypsum has designated to speak for the company on that o i topic? (9) A. Yes. (10) Q. And second topic, sir, is Kaiser Gypsum's (ii> relationship with Kaiser Cement. Are you the witness that U2 > has been designated to speak for Kaiser Gypsum on that (13) topic? (14) A. Yes. (15) Q. The third topic, sir, is asbestos-containing U6) joint compounds manufactured by Kaiser Gypsum and intended (i7) application of those products. Are you the witness who is (is) going to speak for Kaiser Gypsum on that subject matter?
(19) A. Yes. (20 ) Q. The fourth topic is Kaiser Gypsum's knowledge (2i) of the dangers associated with asbestos. Are you the tec; individual who Kaiser Gypsum has designated to speak for the (23) company on that subject matter? (24) A. Yes. (25) Q. The fifth topic is sales of Kaiser Gypsum
Page 10
(i) joint compounds in thWPortland and Vancouver area. Are you (2 ; the witness on that subject matter? (3) A. Yes.
Tooker & Antz
(41S) 392-0650
Page 1 to Page 10
BSA
Pickner vs. Owens-Com ing Joseph Ross Hobby
11/4/98
XMAX(2/2)
Q. Finally, our next is the sixth item, is j a party to this litigation and your inquiry is
MS. JACKSON: Same objection.
Kaiser :=> Gypsum's answers to the
:inappropriate in that regard. <5) Kaiser
THE WITNESS: To the best of my
interrogatories that plaintiffs (=) propounded | Gypsum is the party. Kaiser Cement is not. !knowledge they ;2) were located in the
in this case. Are you the witness on that
I ioj MR. BERGMAN: Q. You can answer 'Kaiser Center in Oakland, California.
subject matter, sir?
|the question, (") sir?
! (4) MR. BERGMAN: Q. Did Kaiser
:s; A. Yes.
j (8) A. Would you repeat the question? Cement and Kaiser (5) Gypsum Company
; Q. The seventh topic is the
j (si Q. Yes, I would. Can describe the haveseparate accounting departments?
involvement of Kaiser (io> Gypsum
corporate (1 0 ; relationship between Kaiser j is) A. To the best of my knowledge,
Company with the Gypsum Association. Are Gypsum and Kaiser Cement between ;id lyes.
you the ; i : > witness that Kaiser Gypsum has the years of 1965 and 1975?
| d) Q. And did Kaiser Gypsum and
designated on that subject c:> matter?
(12) A. Yes.
! Kaiser Cement have (8) separate
::i) A. Yes.
:i3) Q. Would you do that for me,
management?
: -)) Q. The eighth topic is Kaiser
please?
(9) MS. JACKSON: Can I just object,
Gypsum's business (is) dealings with
(14) A. Kaiser Gypsum Company, Inc. Counsel. <io> Perhaps if you ask a little
Owens Corning Fiberglas Corporation. Are is a wholly-owned (15) subsidiary of
corporate history as a preamble tu> there
you (is) the witness who Kaiser Gypsum
Kaiser Cement Corporation.
might be some confusion over the names. At
has designated to speak for in : the
(is) Q. And how was it that Kaiser
one point <1 2 ) the Kaiser Cement name
company on that subject matter?
Gypsum came to be (i7> incorporated in the included Gypsum in its title. It (i3i would be
:ie> A. Yes.
State of Washington?
a little more clear for the witness to have that
:: 9) Q. The ninthtopic is Kaiser
(18) A. I don't know,
(14) history first.
Gypsum's document (2 0 ) retention policies. asi Q. Do you know when Kaiser
(15) MR. BERGMAN: Q. Could you
Are you the designated witness on that <2 i> Gypsum was associated - o i incorporated provide us with -- (is> was there a time, sir,
matter?
in the State of Washington?
when Kaiser Gypsum and Kaiser Cement
A. Yes.
(2 D A. Yes.
( in had the same name in their title?
!- ) Q. And finally the tenth topic is
(2 2 ) Q. And when was that, sir?
(is) A. There was a time when the
certain <24 > documents that are listed in the (23) A. 1952.
corporate entity was U9) called Kaiser
Notice of Deposition, (25) Exhibit 1. Are you (24) Q. Was, between the years of 1965 Cement & Gypsum Corporation.
the witness who is designated on those
and 1975 what (25) was the division of
(2 0 ) Q. And was Kaiser Cement &
Page 11 (1) subject matters?
products manufactured by Kaiser Gypsum Page 13
Gypsum - was Kaiser tm Cement & Gypsum Corporation located at the Kaiser Center (2 2 ) during the 1965 to 1975 time
.:> A. Yes.
id and Kaiser Cement? I'd be happy to
period?
'i Q. Thank you, sir.
clarify that question if (2 ) you need me to do (23i A. To the best of my knowledge,
s) MS. JACKSON: Counsel, I'm going to so.
yes.
interrupt 5) you just for a moment. To the
( 3 ) MS. JACKSON: Objection insofar as (24) Q. And was Kaiser Cement &
extent that we have <si objections to the
you refer (4) to Kaiser Cement products.
Gypsum Company a (25) separate entity
various topics I'm going to wait until you (78*1357920> The plaintiff has not testified (5) to any
from Kaiser Gypsum Company during that
hit the topics before making objections, all
products manufactured by Kaiser Cement. same
right? (2) MR. BERGMAN: I understand,
Kaiser (6> Gypsum products, of course, you j may inquire about.
Page 15
Counsel.
m MR. BERGMAN: Q. W hatw erethe (1) time frame, sir?
:*) Q. I'm handing you now Exhibit 2
products that (8) were manufactured by
(2 ) A. Yes.
which I will (io) represent to you is Kaiser
Kaiser Cement as opposed to Kaiser (5)
(3 ) Q. Was there -- did Kaiser Gypsum
Gypsum's Responses to Plaintiffs ciu
Gypsum?
Corporation (4) receive its instructions from
Interrogatories and Requests for Admissions (io MS. JACKSON: During what years, Kaiser Cement & Gypsum (5 ) Corporation
in this case, t i 2 ) and I'd ask you first of all to Counsel?
in the 1965 to 1975 time frame?
turn to the tabbed page (13) which is the
( in MR. BERGMAN: Q. 1965 to 1975. 18) MS. JACKSON: Objection, the word
signature page. And that is Page 15. Is that (12) MS. JACKSON: Ifyou know.
(7 ) "instructions" is vague.
:i4>your signature, sir?
(13) THE WITNESS: Well, to the extent I (8 ) THE WITNESS: I don't know.
(isi A. Yes.
know (14) Kaiser Cement was in the cement (5 ) MR. BERGMAN: Q. What was the
Q. And did you review these
manufacturing business at 15) that time
level of (10) day-to-day interaction between
interrogatories on (i7> behalf of Kaiser
primarily.
Kaiser Gypsum Company and (in Kaiser
Gypsum prior to their submission to asi
(i> MR. BERGMAN: Q. And what
Cement & Gypsum Company in the 1965 to
plaintiffs?
business primarily (H) was Kaiser Gypsum 1975 time 121 frame?
iv) A. Yes.
involved in the 1965 to 1975 time frame?
(13) MS. JACKSON: Ifyou could,
1 :; Q. I'd like to ask you then some
(19) A. Primarily wallboard and
Counsel, clarify ; i 4 ) the years that the
general c i > questions, first of all on the
accessories.
company was called a company entitled
corporate structure and <2 2 ; organization of j (i9i Q. Where were Kaiser Gypsum's
(15) "Kaiser Cement & Gypsum Company,"
Kaiser Gypsum. The first question, and I
corporate 1201 headquarters located in the was in existence, it would ;i-:: clarify for the
<:i) would direct your attention to basically i 1965 to 1975 time frame?
witness.
Interrogatories c d 1,2, and 3, and 14.
I (2 D A. Based on the information I've (17) MR. BERGMAN: Q. Sir, during
Could you start, sir, by describing (25 > the been provided <221 they were located in what years was tie) there an entity known
relationship b etw e e n K aiser G ypsum and
th e K a is e r C e n te r in O a k la n d , t - *12*'
as Kaiser Gypsum & C em en t Company?
Kaiser Cement
California.
(19) A. From roughly 1964 to
Page 12
! (24j Q. And where was Kaiser Cement's approximately 1978. !corporate 2 5 ) offices located in the years of (2 0 ) Q. Between 1964 and 1978, sir,
i! between the years of 1965 and 1975?
1965 to 1975?
what was the level (2D of day-to-day
MS. JACKSON: I'm going to object to this question in that Kaiser Cement is not
Page 14
interaction between Kaiser Gypsum Companyand (2 2 ; Kaiser Cement &
Page 10
toPage 15
(415) 392-0650
Tooker & Antz
Pickner vs. Owens-Corning Joseph Ross Hobby
11/4/98
XMAX(3/3)
Gypsum Company?
c"> A. Those aren't my words. I think overbroad.
. A. I don't know.
he was Vice c n president and general '.*-!) MR. BERGMAN: Q. Based on this
24i Q. Did Kaiser Cement & Gypsum manager.
'document, sir, :i5) what conclusions can
. Company and Kaiser c?) Gypsum
22! Q. What were Mr. Costa's
!you make?
Company have the same in-house counsel? !responsibilities as Vice (23) President and ! ns A. Well, I can conclude that Mr.
I'm not
*
General Manager of Kaiser Gypsum
Costa was frie (i7) Vice President and
.. Page 16 t:) asking you for any comments or
Company? j (24) A. I can only deduce from the organizational cs> chart that his
General Manager of the Kaiser Gypsum das Company, for example. (19) Q. Looking down the chart, sir,
communications with that (2 ) counsel but did |business was to run, his role was to run there's the Group 2 0 ) Manager, Wallboard
they employ the same in-house counsel?
that
(3> MS. JACKSON: I'm just going to place
an 4! objection on the record that I'd like to j
Page 18
Accessories and Metal Products. What (CD were, what category of products were Wallboard Accessories?
apply to any is> question that involves Kaiser id ) company on a day-to-day basis.
(22) MS. JACKSON: I'm going to object,
Cement is not a party to this (6) action.
| (2 ) Q. And sitting here today you don't Counsel. <23> We've reached a stipulation
Plaintiff has not testified in his deposition he :know whether (3) or not Mr. Costa reported with local counsel for Kaiser c o Gypsum
I'M was exposed to or claiming exposure to |to anybody else?
that the products inquired into would be
products manufactured (8) by Kaiser
| <4) A. No, I've not seen an
limitedto (25) the joint compound products
Cement, and I'd like a running objection to :organizational chart that <si said that he, that your client has testified
any questions on that. 110 ) MR. BERGMAN: I will give you a
nor have I read anything that said that Mr. j () Costa reported to someone else.
Page 20
running ( in objection on that subject
| n i Q. Was Kaiser Gypsum in the 1 9 -
i ) that he was exposed to. So insofar as
matter, Counsel.
; Kaiser Gypsum () Company, a public or
your question exceeds ::i that narrow
i 12) THE WITNESS: I don't know.
j private corporation in the year 1970 (9) when scope pursuant to stipulation I would object.
:i3> MR. BERGMAN: Q. Sir, I'm
|this chart was generated?
(3) MR. BERGMAN: Q. I'm not asking
handing you what (i4) has been marked as | not A. It was a wholly-owned
for any 4) detailed information. I'm just
Exhibit 3.
`subsidiary of Kaiser (ii> Cement
concerned about --I would (M like to know,
;is) MS. JACKSON: Can you indicate
1Corporation or Kaiser Cement & Gypsum and this falls within the ambient of my is)
what the asi plaintiff number on the bottom? ICorporation, <12) depending on the time request of organization and governance,
:17> MR. BERGMAN: Yeah, I'm sorry, the !frame.
what were the (7) general category of
plaintiff <is) number is 238.
j (13) Q. Do you know whether or not Mr. wallboard accessories. I'm not asking (?)
:i9) Q. Sir, does Exhibit 3 appear to be |Costa reported H4) to Kaiser Cement &
specific product questions at this time.
an (2 0 ) organizational chart of Kaiser
Gypsum Company in 1970?
(9) A. Well, as I understood it I think
Cement & Gypsum Corporation, c i; the
as) A. I don't know.
they're (io> referred to in our
Gypsum Division?
(is) Q. I'm going to go down the list of interrogatories. They generally consist
2 2 1 A. That's w hat the title of the
some of the <n> individuals on this
(11) of the various jo in t compounds.
front page says.
|organizational chart and for the record (ia> (12) Q. And who did, who was, first of
(23> Q. And is this one of the document j I'm referring to Page 240. What were the
all, J.W. (13) Blewett?
that you (241 reviewed in preparation for this i roles of the um executive assistant, the two (i4> A. Well, according to the chart
deposition?
!executive assistants listed on (2 0 > this chart, he was group ns) Manager for the
<:m A. Yes.5*134
| Mr. Eshelman and Mr. Orzech?
Wallboard Accessories and Meta!
Page 17
| (2i A. I don't know. I've not seen a job (22) description, nor do we have any
Products (is) operations. (17) Q. Do you know whether Mr.
:i) Q. Okay. I would like to turn, direct jo b descriptions for those (2?) positions. Blewett is still (i s> living ?
your (2) attention to page, the third page
(241 Q. Do you have any knowledge
(19) MS. JACKSON: Counsel, I believe
which is designated as C) Page No. 240.
whatsoever as to (25) what Mr. Eshelman or we provided (29) that to you in the answers
Who was Mp. R.A. Costa? (4) A. Well, according to the chart he was Vice (5) President and General
what Mr. Orzech did in the j --------------------------------- -------------------------
J
Page 19
to interrogatories that were the (2i> subject of your motion. (22) MR. BERGMAN: I understand.
Manager of Kaiser Gypsum.
] :i> organization?
(23) THE WITNESS: I'd have to see the
(5) Q. And who was president of Kaiser I (2 ) A. No, I don't. Perhaps I should say document (24) that l provided. I have not
Gypsum during r> that 1970 time frame? ;at this (3) point that the day-to-day
committed - - 1know a number of :2?> the
c> A. I don't know.
' business operations of Kaiser to
employees on these charts are.deceased
:' Q. HoW Would that information be
;Gypsum Corporation ended in 1978 or
and I haven't*(i)479
obtained? :10) A. I don't have any idea o ff the
about that time. There <*> are no current employees of Kaiser Gypsum. So it's
Page 21
top of my head.
.been () over between 20 years since
(i) memorized them.
id Q. Was there a president of Kaiser there was any employees there. (7) I've (2 i MR. BERGMAN: Q. Who did Mr.
Gypsum r o Corporation?
been with Kaiser companies roughly 18 Blewett report ('> to within Kaiser Gypsum?
(13) A. I don't know.
iyears. So I have (8) no direct knowledge (4) MS. JACKSON: What time frame?
(14) Q. Who if anybody did Mr. Costa
|of these people and what they did. I (9)
(5i MR. BERGMAN: Q. 1970, the date
report to? And (is ) am I pronouncing his
jcan merely go from the documents that that this (5) chart was generated?
name right first Of all?
have been provided to cio> me. And as I (7) A. Well, according to the chart he
cm A. Yeah. I have not seen an
;look at these documents as you have
reported to te> Mr. Costa. That's the way
\ organization chart cm with Mr. Costa's !them in (in front of you, I can make
I would read it.
/ name on it reporting to someone else.
!certain conclusions but -
(9) Q. Looking down the chart, sir,
::e) Q. So to the best of your knowledge (12) Q. What conclusions can you make, there's ViceNio President of Sales. What
Mr. Costa was (i9> the chief executive officer sir?
was the function of the Sales :in
of Kaiser Gypsum Corporation?
I U3> MS. JACKSON: Objection,
Department of Kaiser Gypsum in the 1965
Tooker & Antz
(415) 392-0650
15 to Page 21
3SA
Pickner vs. Owens-Coming Joseph Ross Hobby
11/4/98
XMAX(4/4)
to 75 period? :::: Correction, in the 1964 to would assume, u ->> though, that they
going with ts) that question. I'd answer it
78 period.
were generally involved in researching generally that, you know, the
MS. JACKSON: Couid you repeat the and uis developing and/or improving
;management team, ail of the managers
question, .14) Counsel?
existing or new products.
would shoulder some i responsibility
MR. BERGMAN: Q. Yeah. What u i- ! Q. In the 1964 to 1978 time period for the safety of their product.
was the function c-:; of the Sales
were there <13; ongoing changes in the
: .3: Q. And by management team would
Department of Kaiser Gypsum in the 1964 to products that were manufactured by ti-i >
that be fair to tio> say that the vice
1978
time period?
Kaiser Gypsum?
| presidents who are listed on the, kind of
; A. Well, 1have no direct
.id MS. JACKSON: l`m going to object | :ii) on the, toward the bottom of Page
knowledge but I'll us-; venture that they :it's vague (ii) and overbroad,
1240?
were in charge of selling the various uo; h i') THE WITNESS-1 have no direct
j i12) A. I would say most of them.
products manufactured at the, on the
| knowledge but I t is ) would assume that if ;There may be some :u ) people on there
manufacturing side of u n the business, they had a department for that purpose tiso Ithat, for example, the Financial Analyst
uoi Q. And would that include joint
that that department did something and
| or
the Vice President and Controller
compounds?
there were changes.
j may not have a very strong ( i - ) link to
u u A. Yes, 1would think so.
p o i MR. BERGMAN: Q. And I guess the safety efforts. But someone like the
u-i) Q. And who did the Vice President 'sir, in light of <2 1 ) counsel's prior objection, vice (15) president for operations in the
for Sales us; report to within Kaiser
;which is well taken, I'm trying 12) to
manufacturing environment :'- ) may
Gypsum Company?
ascertain whether there was a constant
,have a greater responsibility.
Page 22
' evolution of (23j products within the Gypsum I (is) Q. And moving then to the Vice IDivision or, and whether that was c o part of | President for us) Operations, who did that
u! a . Well, the chart would indicate to the ongoing operations of the company.
individual report to?
me that he u; reported to Mr. Costa.
| ::&i MS. JACKSON: To the extent that | ;:i) A. According to the chart he
U! Q. The next question is what was the you know.
reported to Mr. cci; Costa,
role of the h i vice president for merchandising within Kaiser Gypsum in the
Page 24
iii) Q. And would the Vice President for Operations (23) have been the primary
is.) 1964 to 1978 time period?
j 11) THE WITNESS: I don't have any direct individual other than Mr. Costa iC4i
A. I don't know.
! :2 ) knowledge but I would assume, to use responsible for insuring the safety of Kaiser
Q. Why was there a separate
your word, that there 7) was an evolution or Gypsum's (25) products?
merchandising and U) Sales Department? ;certainly new products were introduced <4>
ui A. I don't know.
' and those new products may have replaced !
Page 26
:to Q. Does anybody at Kaiser Gypsum :existing products, (S) that sort of thing.
|
A. I don't know.
have any <i i ) knowledge regarding why
That's common in industry.
j ::: Q. You had indicated individuals in
there was a separate sales and ; i 2 >
MR. BERGMAN: Q. And was one of the (3) management team who were
merchandising department?
;the functions O) of the Research &
|responsible for insuring the safety (4) of
us; A. Kaiser Gypsum has no
: Development Department to integrate new Kaiser Gypsum's products and you
employees.
I :s; scientific developments that occurred i identified the Vice - President of
u-5! Q. Is the answer to my question that between 1964 and 1978?
Operations. Would the manager of
nobody :is :> besides yourself has any
A. I don't know. [
IResearch & (6) Development also have
knowledge as to why there was a us>
| :iv) Q. Was one of the functions of the |shared some responsibility for :d insuring
separate Merchandising and Sales
Research & (in Development Department the safety of Kaiser Gypsum's products?
Department?
|to deal with any safety concerns that t i 2 > (2) A. He may or he may not. I don't
u; MS. JACKSON: No one at the
might have arisen regarding products
know.
company.
; manufactured or sold by :n> Kaiser
| :3; Q. How about the Vice President of
ue i THE WITNESS: You asked was
! Gypsum Company?
merchandising?
there anyone at u3) Kaiser Gypsum who ji i o A. I don't know,
I (10) a . I don't know.
has knowledge and I indicated Kaiser uo> i :is) Q. Was there a separate
.id Q. And how about the vice
Gypsum has no employees,
department within Kaiser -n^ Gypsum that president of sales?
u i; MR. BERGMAN: Q. Is there
1was responsible for insuring the safety of its (12) A. I don't know.
anybody else cu> besides yourself that
; i i ; products?
I -j) Q. And how about the vice
would be able to better answer the u i;
! (is; A. To the best of my knowledge jpresident for ci-si manufacturing?
question as to what the different function of there was not.
(15) A. I don't know.
the u^i Merchandising and Sales
, :i3) Q. Who at Kaiser Gypsum would I id Q. And haw about the, the group
Department was?
have been (2 0 > responsible for insuring the ;manager of <n : wallboard accessories?
uu a . If there is I don't know who that safety of the products that !n : were sold to ; id A. Mr. Blewett?
would be.
the public?
: :ii) Q. Yes.
Page 23
.2 i; MS. JACKSON: Over what time frame?
in
A. I don't know.
| .21) Q. So the only individuals thus far,
;i > Q, Who did the vice president for
i .23) MR. BERGMAN: 1964 to 1978.
|so if l (2 2 ) understand your testimony, sir,
merchandising u j report to within Kaiser ; 24; THE WITNESS: Ultimately I would j the two individuals that you (23: have
Gypsum?
have thought (25) Mr. Costa would be.
identified as being responsible for insuring
;;- A. According to the cha rt he would have reported to Mr. Costa.
P age 25
the safety (24) of Kaiser Gypsum's :products are the vice president and ;i'.
u; Q. The next department is research ;
MR. BERGMAN: Q. Was there
i general manager, Mr Costa, and the vice
and,:-:, development. What was the function anybody besides (2 ? Mr. Costa at Kaiser
;president of*1
of the research and development
Gypsum who was responsible for insuring
department within Kaiser Gypsum in the
! :2; the safety of the products that were sold
1964 to :s) 1978 time period?
.by Kaiser Gypsum i - ) to the public?
j :i) operations, at this point Mr. Schaper?
(?) A. I have no direct knowledge. I Page 21 to Page 27
! :-; A. Well,_1_d_on_'_t k_n_o_w where you're 1(2 ) MS. JACKSON: I'm going to object
Tooker & Antz
Pickner vs. Owens-Corning Joseph Ross Hobby 11 /4/98
XMAX(Sf5)
insofar as it misstates his testimony.!
S-C-H-A-P-E-R.
share '2i ' information concerning the safety
think his testimony was that the
management team.
j
Page 29
of Kaiser Gypsum's .2: . products? ; 23) A. Well, when you say share, I
?) MR. BERGMAN: Well, let - well,
;: i! Q. Now sir, if you would, please, turn don't know whether 2 -s) o rnotthere
Counsel, I'm.:)` going to start objecting to to Page c> 241. It appears to be a
;was some responsibility or directive, for
your speaking,.objections. a.)You're
'breakdown of the sales division or (3) the I (25) example fo r Mr. Hague to
certainly entitled to object.
i Sales Department of Kaiser Gypsum. And comm unicate to Mr. Crowle about
e) Q. And if I've misstated your
iwe've talked ;4> about, quite a bit about who
testimony in any (?) way, Mr. Hobby, please !reports up the chain of (5) command. I'm |
Page 31
enlighten me as to how I've done aoi that. Igoing to try to address some questions to j a) some safety item, whether or not he
:i! |A. I think you've mlscharacterized jyou (3) about how information is
iwouldhave a (2 ) responsibility to do
it. What I (i-> tried to say was that
disseminated down the chain of a)
Ithat. I would indicate to you that I'm o>
everyone in management has a :i3>
; command.
'sure information was shared based on
responsibility, okay, for the safety of the (0) Would - well, first of all, if I could direct !probably the individual (a determination
employees and/or U4) the products. I
(9) your attention once again, though, I'm |o f that manager.
also indicated to you I don't know if any sorry, to Page 240. u o And I'd like to direct I (5) Q. So, and I understand that, you
as one person in the organization had your attention to the line toward the <in
| know, we're (6) talking about the corporate
absolute day-to-day <i6) responsibilities bottom of the page, the five vice presidents? |structure and we may not have *." precise
for that other than I would assume, and I (12) A. 1see it
I directives concerning every interaction and
:n > know that's dangerous to do, but Mr. 113) Q, Okay. Was information
every <a> responsibility that each corporate
Costa as the head of U8> the
concerning the safety a n of Kaiser Gypsum Iofficer has in relation ;?) to every other
organization would have overall
products shared between the various vice [corporate officer. However, had say the
responsibility. Beyond a?) that (cannot i ib) presidents listed on Page 240?
(io) manager of research development
say to you whether an individual within
(16) MS. JACKSON: During what time
j learned of information ; m regarding the,
this <-0) chart has greater or lesser
frame?
[learned that Kaiser Gypsum's products may
responsibility than another. I ::u have no (17) MR. BERGMAN: Q. During 1964 to not (12) be safe when used as intended
direct knowledge.
1978. And aej let me just say for the record, would that have been the type a?) of
; : 2 ) Q. Sir, I'm handing you a picture an Mr. Hobby, unless I say as otherwise,
information that would have been shared to
exhibit (23) marked as No. 5 .1do have a
during my examination this morning my time Ithevice <i4) president of sales responsible
color photograph if that would (24> be easier frame <20 ) will be 1964 to 1978.
ifor selling those products to Uc- the public?
for you. Is that Mr. Costa?
(Ci) MS. JACKSON: And just for the
asi MS. JACKSON: Calls for
asi A. I don't know.
record to be (22) absolutely clear, Kaiser {speculation.
Page 28
Gypsum's products became (23> asbestos-free in 1975. So to the extent
j ;n ) THE WITNESS: All I can say to that Iis that (ia > I've never seen a document that
i> MS. JACKSON: Counsel, I just would you're inquiring 24) about information past would indicate as you have as> just stated.
like an c i opportunity to see actually the
the 1975 date I would object.
(20) MR. BERGMAN: Q. Based on
color photo --
(25) THE WITNESS: I lost track of the
your knowledge of 12:1 the company overall
'.3i MR. BERGMAN; Absolutely.
question.
would you have expected the vice (22:
:4> MS. JACKSON: - and also advise you that this was not provided to us prior to
Page 30
president of sales to have been informed of any defects of (23) the product that
the deposition. Thank you.
:i) MR. BERGMAN: Q. That's fine, Mr. [rendered it dangerous when used as 24)
; THE WITNESS: I've never seen this Hobby. (2 ) It's hard when a bunch of lawyers intended?
picture (7) before, I've never met Mr. Costa, ask questions and go back (3) and forth, I | (25) A. That would be speculative on
nor have I ever seen a (0 ) photo of Mr.
know.
my part. I could
Costa where he has been identified to me.
<4) A. That's okay.
S ol 9) would have no way of identifying Mr. :&) Q. I'd like to direct your attention on
Page 32
Costa. '
Page 240 (6> to the five individuals listed in (i) speculate that on that Mr. Bergman,
io) MR. BERGMAN: Q. Is Mr. Costa the vice president (7) category. And we've but I have no direct 2 ) knowledge.
still living?
spoken a lot about them. And I believe (0)
(3) Q. And I would understand from your
ju t A. To the best of my knowledge you said that all of those individuals would
answer that 14) you're not aware of anybody
he is not But (i2> again I would refer you report to Mr. (?) Costa. And my question to j else at Kaiser Gypsum that would (5) know
to the listing that I, was provided <i3) to you now is would these cio> individuals,
{whether the Research & Development
you and remind you that I haven't
these five vice presidents have been (in
.Department would have been
committed all the (14) deceased persons responsible for sharing Information between !responsible for sharing safety information
to memory.
themselves (12) regarding the safety of
with (?) the Sales Department?
: : r > Q. I understand, sir.
Kaiser Gypsum's products?
j IS) A. No, I've never seen a document
>3) A. But I understand Mr. Costa is (I?) A. I have no direct knowledge of lor anything in (?) writing or anything that
not living.
the answer to a 4) that question. Whether ll've been, any of the information a 1 I've
i ' Q. Do you know when Mr. Costa
or not they would have had a as i
j reviewed that would cause me to be able
ceased to be vice ua) president and general responsibility as you put it to share
to answer that u i) question positively
manager of Kaiser Gypsum Company?
information. I have a 6) not seen that in yes.
A. No.
any job title or anything. I would say as
(12) Q. Now if we could go back to
::o: Q. What was, directing your
a 1*3) a normal course of business issues Page 241?
attention once again (,2i) to Exhibit 240, the such as safety may be asi would be
(13) MS. JACKSON: Just for the record,
vice president of manufacturing, who did
shared between various departments,
Counsel, (14) you have not designated 241
-2 ) that individual report to?
yes.
as a document you wish t'b r.n examine
2 3 ) A. According to the chart I would a?) Q. So as a normal course of
our witness on.
indicate that (24) he reported to a Mr.
business then the (2oi various vice
as) MR. BERGMAN: Yes, I do, Counsel.
Schaper I guess you would pronounce it, presidents would have been expected to
My in i intention in this designation was to
Tooker & AntZ
(415) 392-0G50
Page 27 to Page 32
BSA
Pickner vs. Owens-Coming Joseph Ross Hobby
11/4/98
XMAX(6/6)
refer to the first page ::s> of these
Gypsum is, was responsible for 12!
answer the ;12) question, sir.
documents, not to list every page of the
' communicating product information to
: 14) A. In the research l did I didn't
document ns-i that was indicated. But I will, i customers?
i research all u=> the operations that may
in light of your objection C2- I will keep that !'.c! MS. JACKSON: Objection, vague. ,have or may not have produced joint
in mind in the course of my examination.
I"Product (id information" is unclear.
: 15) compounds. I focused my research
21; MS. JACKSON: My objection was | .**3) THE WITNESS: I don't know who had !in the Seattle plant. But id I do know
that it was not
on the list. Now you're US'! responsibility for that.
that other plants did, but I would be hard
telling me that you designated (23;
' :2 D MR. BERGMAN: Q. I'm nottalking pressed us> to categorically say what ail
incomplete listing of document numbers or l about the i::i individual, I'm talking about the plants manufactured.
you intended to 24) designate just the Page ithe organization.
! ;i5) Q. Why did you focus your
1? Is that it? Because what I was (2 s> just i )2 2 ) A. I could guess but I have no
Iresearch on the Seattle 120 plant, sir?
objecting to was document 0241 was not Idirect knowledge (23) o f who would have I 2 D A. Because based on the advice
designated in
:had responsibility for that specific 124;
of counsel, Mr., 221 the Pickner case
Page 33
Ifunction. j (25) Q. What is your best
involved was localized to that region. | 23) Q. What years did the Seattle plant
id your notice. So my objection would be it's Iunderstanding? Well, let me
manufacture (24) asbestos-containing joint
outside the 12) scope of the notice.
mi MR. BERGMAN: I understand,
!
Page 35
compounds? ; 25) A. Roughly from 1969 to 1975.
Counsel, and s i insofar as I refer to
<1 ) ask you this: Was there an entity at
question 241 such reference is in 5) pursuit Kaiser Gypsum that (2 ) communicated
!
Page 37
of my general inquiry concerning the
|information regarding the use and application id Q. And is it your understanding, sir,
corporate (>>) history and governance of
i (3 > of Kaiser Gypsum products to the
;that Mr. (2 ) Pickner was not exposed to
Kaiser Gypsum, not the document (D per Icustomers?
joint compounds prior to 1969?
se.
| 4) A. Well, as far as I know the Sales i;3! a . I have no knowledge of Mr.
i?: Q. And my question to you, Mr.
;Department no tsj doubt communicated ;Pickner's exposure.
Hobby, is what were the general
jwith its customers. But there may have (4) Q. And again, without going into any
responsibilities of the vice president of uoi :e) been other departments that
contents of is> any communications, you
sales of Kaiser Gypsum Company?
'communicated with customers as ;d
focused your, you did not focus any :) of
r.Li MS. JACKSON: And just for the
|well.
;your inquiry prior to 1969; is that correct?
record so that U2) you know, not having
j :si Q. What department, if any, at Kaiser j 7) A. I read a lot of documents and
seen the complete designations in your 113> | Gypsum was o> responsible for
reviewed a lot (si o f documents that
notice and not having a clarifying letter or
| communicating safety information to
would give me some general knowledge.
phone call <i4) about the nature of your
| customers?
But 9) I'm telling you that I focused on
notice, we have not prepared and as)
| :id A. I have no direct knowledge.
Ithe Seattle area and the uo> Pickner
reviewed the documents that are not listed on | 1 2 ) Q. Was there a department at
case because I understood that's what
your notice.
;Kaiser Gypsum that 13) had responsibility jwe were being (ii) deposed on.
::s; MR. BERGMAN: I understand.
for communicating safety information to :i4) ! (12) Q. And was -- you're aware, sir,
i i 2 ) MS. JACKSON: So my objection is |the public, the users of your product?
and this kind of (is) gets into one of the
going to be tisi that we've not had an
1=) A. I don't know. I don't know,
other subject areas we're going to talk <10
opportunity to review them and that he
j ;1c) Q, Is there anybody who knows
|about today which is sales of
had be given incomplete numbers and I'm whether there was a?: any department at |asbestos-containing joint u=) compounds
going to object <205 insofar as the
1Kaiser Gypsum responsible for tie)
i in the Portland and Vancouver area. Would
documents are not complete.
Icommunicating product safety information to those (i6) products have been, and is it
21) MR. BERGMAN: Q. Okay.Whatis 'the public?
your testimony, sir, that -- <id well, where
the general 122
,responsibility of thej Si5a)les a . I don't know.
were joint compounds that were
Department, Mr. Hobby? And I 123) will ask | 2 0 ) Q. I'd like you to look at Page 244 manufactured, ue; that were sold in the
you to look at Page 241 only insofar as it
; and that is 121 > of this exhibit.
!Portland, greater Portland and <i9>
helps i2 4! you formulate an answer. If It
| 2 2 ) MS. JACKSON: Same objection as Vancouverarea manufactured?
doesn't help you, just (2 D ignore it.
to the 23) incompleteness and lack of
j (20) A. Well, would i say they were
Page 34
designation. Objection to the 24) inquiry ! outside the scope of the notice.
generally (2u manufactured at the Seattle plant.
MS. JACKSON: Referring back,
! 2 5 ) MR. BERGMAN: Q. Kaiser
(22 ) Q. And that was located kind of
Counsel, to the :2 > date of this document ;Gypsum as I
!Harbor Island (23) area?
which is on 0238 is 1970, November 1? :i)
That's the limitation on your question?
!
Page 36
j (24) A. I'm not fam iliar with the term "Harbor 125; Island."*i
MR. BERGMAN: Q. No, my question :i ; understand it, sir, manufactured joint
is in ; : general what was the department, |compounds that :) contained asbestos
l
Page 38
responsibility of the Sales Department of ;during certain years; is that correct, ::: sir? j :i) Q. Located kind of south Seattle?
Kaiser Gypsum Company in the 1964 -
j 4 A. That's correct.
; (2 ! A. In Seattle.
r.) MS. JACKSON: If you know.
Q. And what plants, what
( 3 ) Q. Okay.
-s THE WITNESS: I think I already
j manufacturing facilities si were responsible | (4) A. I've not been to theplant
answered that (D question but I have no
i or manufactured asbestos-containing joint ; personally.
direct knowledge. I have not seen a n o ; job ! :d compounds?
i
Q. Okay. And so if I understand your
description. But I did venture an assumption ; ;=; MS. JACKSON: I'm going to object testimony, <e: sir, at least after 1969jo in t
thatthe :iu function of the Sales
insofar as si the joint compounds in
compounds that Mr. Pickner, -d Kaiser
Department was to sell the products (12> !question would have emanated from one
iGypsum joint compounds that Mr. Pickner
that are manufactured by the company.
| :io) plant in the Pacific Northwest. The
|may have (8) worked around would have
MR. BERGMAN: Q. Was one of inquiry on other plants <id is inappropriate. Ibeen manufactured primarily in i5> Seattle;
the--what ;i4i department of Kaiser
| : i 2 i MR. BERGMAN: Q. Go ahead and Iis that correct?
Page 32 fo Page 38
(415) 392*0650
Tooker & Antz
Pickner vs. Owens-Corning Joseph Ross Hobby
11/4/38
XMAX(7/7J
A. To the best of my knowledge. the :s- scope of the notice,
;
MR. BERGMAN: Watch if 1screech
That's my a u understanding, yes.
i : 9. THE WITNESS: I don't know.
while moving ;u the phone. I apologize in
123 Q. And how about prior to 1969, sir? ( 12 : MR. BERGMAN: Q. Do you know advance.
MS. JACKSON: I'm going to object, :whether any a u asbestos-containing joint ' a u THE WITNESS: I guarantee you, I'm
Counsel, a u it's not relevant.
compounds were manufactured in the :i:; answering a u them all, Ken.
:i5! MR. BERGMAN: It manifestly is
<Delanco plant?
(12) MR. PETTY: Okay,
relevant, ::8iC ounsel. The client was
MS. JACKSON: Same objection.
i U3) MS. JACKSON: Does that sound
exposed from 1965 on.
(is) THE WITNESS: 1don't know. If you ` better, Ken?
a u Q. But you can go ahead and
know the <im answer to that perhaps you , '14) MR. PETTY: It sounds better except
answer the question.
could give me a document or a u something 'now I got as) something in my throat.
(i8! Jfc. Perha ps if you tell me where that would remind me. But based on my
| a si MS. JACKSON: I was going to say
he was exposed I as> could more directly knowledge a u as I sit here right now I don't ;you don't a u sound so hot.
answer the question.
i know the answer to those ;i8) questions. | aa> MR. BERGMAN: Mr. Hobby was
co) Q. Yeah. Mr. Pickner worked in
cm MR. BERGMAN: Q. Okay. And I'm Iapproximately five a?) feet away from the
Portland, greater ci> Portland and
referring to <201 Exhibit No. 244 -- or Page |phone, Ken, so this may help things out a
Vancouver, greater Portland, Oregon and 1244.
| (20) little bit.
(22) Vancouver, Washington.
i ten A. Yes.
| a u MR. PETTY: I've been hearing some
c:u A. Yes.
i (2 2 ) Q. And that document indicates
Iand not (22) hearing some but I guess I
`2-5! Q. And from approximately 1964, wallboard (23) accessories. And so based Swould just like the record to (2:0 reflect, and
`65 on. So what c m I'm trying to do is figure on that I'm -
I'm going to keep quiet as best I can, Matt.
out if the Seattle plant didn't
(24: A. What wallboard, where are
(24) but the tenor of the questions that 1
Page 39
you located at? (2 r ) Q. I'm looking at the bottom line of
hear, I think more or (25) less all of them assume that this witness knows or has to
;:) start making asbestos-containing joint the compounds until 1969 (2 ) where would this joint compound have been obtained prior to
Page 41
j
Page 43
| (i) know the answers to questions. And I
that period?
(1 organizational chart on Page 244.
;believe if you look at <2 > the law on Civil
i4) MS. JACKSON: Well, it assumes facts (2 ) A. Yes.
! Rule 30(b)(6), I think you need to find out
notin (6) evidence that in fact there were
(3) Q. Okay. And that is the basis on
' (3) what he knows personally and then what
exposures that I don't <> believe have been which I (4) inquired whether or not
!is reasonably known (<) to him or what he
testified to prior to the 1969 time frame.
asbestos-containing joint compounds (5)
j knows from reasonably available a i
(U MR. BERGMAN: Q. You can answer were manufactured say at the Jacksonville information, and l don't think the law allows
the question, (8) Mr. Hobby,
plant?
you or anybody (8) to assume that the
no A. I'm getting a little confused,
( MS. JACKSON: Well, to the extent company can always produce a witness that
a u Q. Okay.
that you're tu looking at a document that
tu can answer every one of your questions.
u u A. But in 1969 is when we started you haven't designated in the (8) notice and So I would just (3) interpose an objection
manufacturing
joint compounds that you're asking him to speculate on what it
;generally speaking to the tenor of (9) your
contained asbestos. I don't know (13)
means, (9) the document speaks for itself, ' questions which I think assume facts not in
whether or not we manufactured any joint a u MR. BERGMAN: Q. You can
evidence.
compounds that ti4i didn't contain
answer the question, a n Mr. Hobby.
10) MR. BERGMAN: Well, the third sub
asbestos. And I don't know specifically
(12) A. Yeah. This would Indicate that --and I a u don't want to belabor Mr.
n u whether or not there may have been there were (n> some sort of wallboard Hobby who I'm sure has places he'd a:)
some asbestos joint as> compound that could have found Its way to Portland
accessories manufactured at those a u various locations.
rather be, with extended colloquy on the record. But the a u third item of this notice
through ti7j some channel I'm not aware (15> Q. And you previously testified that of deposition specifically a u requests
of.
your a?) understanding of wallboard
asbestos-containing joint compounds
(18) Q. j 'Okay. And I want to make sure I accessories included joint a ' ) compounds? manufactured by <:S) Kaiser Gypsum and
understand a 9) your testimony. Are you
a?) A. It included, yes.
intended application of said products. as>
testifying that Kaiser Gypsum did co> not
a:-) Q. When did Kaiser Gypsum start There was no date restriction on that, so I
commence manufacturing
manufacturing <20 asbestos-containing joint am concerned a ") that we have no
asbestos-containing joint c u compounds 'compounds?
information prior to 1969.1don't believe
until 1969 or that it did not commence C2 ) | a u A. I don't know the answer to that j (18) that this is merely an academic
manufacturing asbestos-containing joint
!right off the (22) top of my head. Perhaps concern given that the asi evidence in this
compounds in Seattle (23) until 1969?
you can help me. I don't remember.
case is that Mr. Pickner worked as a a o
c u A. In Seattle. 25) Q. Okay. Prior to '69 did Kaiser
i '1 u Q. Well, I don't know the answer to !that (24) question, either, sir.
painter upon being released from the Navy in '64.
Gypsum
; (2 5 1 MR. PETTY: This is Ken Petty. Are
(2D MR. PETTY: I think the evidence in
Page 40 ::) manufacture asbestos-containing joint
!we i -----------------------------------------------------------
|
Page 42
this case 12:1 does not establish any exposure to Kaiser Gypsum products (2.u before 1969. You may think it does or wish
compounds?; ;:) A. I believe the answer to that is
yes. Again i haven't focused my research very much on what other plants
may have manufactured. > <m Q. Dp,you know whether
i 'u anywhere near a break because I don't know what is happening (2 ) but l can't really hear anything. I can hear your questions cu | and some of Gaby, but I can't hear the 1witness at all. '4 ) MR. BERGMAN: I can try to move the
that it does but ( 2 0 I don't believe that it does. I don't think Mr. Pickner was (25) able to pinpoint any exposure in those years and j certainly
j
Page 44
asbestos-containing joint compounds ;phone a (Si little closer to the witness. Ken. ! a ) neither of his three brothers were able to
were manufactured at the Antioch plant? <u MS JACKSON: Objection, it's outside -.
| do so. MR. PETTY: Okay._______________ | (2) MR. BERGMAN: I'm just very
Tooker & A n tz...
(415) 392-0650
Page 38 to Page 44
8 SA
Pickner vs. Owens-Coming Joseph Ross Hobby
11/4/98
XMAX(B/8)
concerned at this :d point that, you know,
Page 46
;2 ; Q. Okay. Okay. Could you describe
we've gone to considerable expense to u j come down here to take a deposition. We have put this " deposition off on numerous occasions. The deposition (si clearly seeks information regarding products manufactured
' prior to 1969. And we have a witness who can't answer that :2> question. And Through no fault of his own. I think he's, (=: you know, doing a yeoman service but apparently was not co> prepared to do that. And I think that's clearly within the t in scope of both Rule 26 and my notice. So I'm going to do the :::: best I can to continue with this examination but I'm going (13) to note at this point for the record that I am quite (14) concerned that through no fault of the witness our i le / examination has been hampered. : != MR. PETTY: Well, let me just respond to that c d if you want to make statements for the record like that. I (isj think it should be clear that our discovery obligations are c d defined by the civil rules and framed by the facts of the c d case. And I mean I think you've been shown great latitude :2 d here in allowing you to ask questions about Kaiser Cement, a <2 2 : company who's not named in this case whose products are not 120> even the type of products at issue in this case, and if you
;: s! continue to persist to ask questions that are well beyond (25> the scope of discovery I think vyeTe going to have these
products were manufactured here.
Where is it? No. 4 0 l believe.
; c ; MR. 3ERGMAN: Mm-hmm. Well, why
don't we do 4 ; the best we can. I mean if we
could stipulate that Kaiser ts) Gypsum
manufactured a product prior to 1969 I think
that cd could move things along.
: (7i MS. JACKSON: I would be happy to
stipulate to (8) that.
I :&> MR. BERGMAN: Okay. All right. I think
That do) would satisfy things and get Mr.
;Hobby on to places he'd c i ) much rather
!be.
i (12 ) Q. I'd like to direct your attention
inow, sir, to ;:3j Interrogatory No. 4
j (Hi MS. JACKSON: With regard to your
'stipulation :is> you're asking if Kaiser
Gypsum manufactured joint compound us)
;containing asbestos prior to 1969 as an
overallbackground (I'M question?
j ;is) MR. BERGMAN: That's correct,
Counsel.
I ;:&> MS. JACKSON: Not concerning the
Seattle
plant.
i c i) MR. BERGMAN: That's correct,
i c : i MS. JACKSON: All right. And that's
'w hatw e co> can advise you.
j C4) MR. BERGMAN: Okay, that's fine,
i :25) Q. Sir, if you could look on Page 4
Iof the
Page 47
forme o briefly what then Joint Compound ;Powder is and how it was (4; used? And I'm ;referring to the first item on Interrogatory j :5) 4 --on Page 4 of your response to 'interrogatories. j ;e) A. Well, the jo in t com pound : referenced there cam e o in a powdered ;form. j (S) Q. And what was it used for?
(Si A. Well, it was typ ica lly mixed .with water to coj form a slush, if that's the right term, and that was then :n ; applied to the various surfaces or joints.
(12) Q. What about, and then after it was applied to d'j> surfaces and joints was any other work done to it or :u i modification done to it? (15) A. Well, I'm not sure I understand j your question :1 0 ) but - 1don't 1understand your question, id ? ) Q. Okay. I'll try to move on and then come back ;is> to this in more detail later. !iso A. Okay. (2 0 ) Q. And then what was the finishing powder that (2D Kaiser Gypsum manufactured? (2 2 ) A. That was also a white powder that would have (23) been mixed with water typically to form a paste that was I (24) used in the finishing aspect o f the jw allboard construction (25) that you described.
Page 45
i: kind of problems.
2 : Now there may be some legitimate
concerns that (3) we both have and we
should try to move ahead, iron them out (4)
and get what you can get done,
accomplished today. I mean (=) that's all I
think we need to be doing. But you need to
be s6; guided by the facts of this case and
the allowable scope of (7) discovery and
also what the obligations are for the witness
(8) to know in response to your notice which
I think we've :s> already determined you only
listed about 25 pages of uo> documents and
you want him to be able to talk about a bunch
of other docum ents that you didn't
specifically list.
; i - ! MR. BERGMAN: Aren't you sorry you
didn't go c d to law school, Mr. Hobby?
do THE WITNESS: Yes. No.
:) MR. PETTY: We are.
d. MS. JACKSON: I'd just like to advise
counsel
that to move the process along
in the spirit of cooperation (is: if you would
refer to our answers to interrogatories you
c c might be enlightened as to the years
prior to 19, I think ( 2 0 69, or if in fact the
question was asked and we answered it
. d not to your satisfaction we have not
been notified that that (2 2 ; was Insufficient
response.
c d MR. BERGMAN: Is there a specific
!-D interrogatory, Counsel?
CD MS. JACKSON: I think you asked us
what
| (i) interrogatories, I'm going to ask you some questions <21 regarding these i products. First of all, would it be fair to o* !say that the six products listed on Page 4 of : Kaiser (4 ) Gypsum's response to plaintiffs interrogatories are joint (5) compounds? ; 0 ) A. They are not all jo in t compounds. (7 ) Q. Okay. Which ones would not be joint (8 ) compounds? | 'Co A. Well, No. 2 is identified as a
finishing co> com pound. | ( ii) Q. What is the difference between a joint 12 compound and 3 finishing compound? j (13) A. Well, again, I'm n o ta n expert and I was :14) trying to merely respond to your question. But I think that C5;> a finishing compound is used during a d iffe re n t phase o f the cs> construction
process than a jo in t com pound. c d Q. Okay. And I just want to make :sure that c d we're - - 1 mean counsel and I made certain agreements prior c d to this deposition and I want to make sure that I honor (2 1 ; them. ! (2 i, Would a finishing compound be something that (2 2 ) was used in the process of taking two sheets of sheet rock c d and i making a smooth joint between the two, or would it have (2 ( i some other application? 1 ;2 i i A. No, that's, that w ould be the general*1
j
Page 48
1 (i) ap p licatio n .____________________ _
Page 49
(l) Q. And would the Finishing Compound Powder then (2) come later in the taping process than the joint compound (3) powder? to A. I understand th a t it would. (5) Q. Okay. is; A. Keep in mind th a t I'm not a w orks -- (7) craftsperson. (8) Q. Okay. One-Day Joint Compound Powder. How did (so that differ from the first two products that you just <io> testified to? ( in MS. JACKSON: Ifyou know. (12) THE WITNESS: I don't know exactly. 11don't (i3! know - - do you mean in chemical makeup? I (i4) MR. BERGMAN: Q. No, sir, just ! did, how was c d that a different product than the first two that you've :id testified to? (i7) A. I can surm ise th a t it was chem ically com posed c d so that it set up faster.
(15 Q. And Three Purpose Compound
Powder? 120: a . I think it had purposes where it, that (2 D extended beyond ju st the joint application. j (2 2 ) Q. And what purposes would those | be? j o n A. I understand they, a lot of times there were (24) nails and staples and other com ponents that were used to lay (25) out the w all th a t this was used to cover in addition to the
Page 44 to Page 49
(415) 392-0650
Tooker & Antz
8SA
Pickner1s. Owens-Coming Joseph Ross Hobby 1 1 /4 /9 8
XMAX{9/9)
Page 50
then? Or let
Page 54
:: joints. :> Q. I understand. And Dual-Purpose Pre-Mix Compound? *> A. The primary difference here as I understand it (i has to do with the, with the fact that it,was a premixed (6)
Page 52
'D me rephrase it. Whatwas the Gypsum IAssociation at the time o that Kaiser l Gypsum was associated with it?
in ) A. I don't know how, I don't know
i) about and I'm inquiring into Kaiser Gypsum's involvement in c: the Gypsum Association and my previous questions were just 3) prefacatory in nature.
4) A. Okay. ) Q. Was the nature of Kaiser
compound as opposed to a powder. .) Q. And by premix compound, in other words, it (3> would not have to be mixed up? 5> A. It would generally come in a bucket or a <io> plastic container where the water had already been added so
you didn't have to physically do the mixing. :ici Q. And how about Pre-mix Topping Compound, was tiai that the premix equivalent to Finishing Compound Powder to :: 4) the best of.your understand knowledge? <im A. That's my understanding. : 15) Q. Okay. I'm going to ask you a little more a - > questions about these products in question in general but I <ie> want to be completely fair here. Would it be fair to group
: 51 these all in joint compounds or I co) a . Well, It would depend what the question was. ::i> Q. Okay.
A. But if you're just talking about the accessory (23) compounds would I say we can refer to them as joint i : < i compounds. cm Q. Okay. And so then if you could once again
Page 51
look with me on Page 4, No. 1 through 4 would be, would have (2 ) to be mixed with
I how to answer that. Be more specific, j ;5) Q. Whatwas its purpose? | (3) A. I guess its purpose was to serve its members. JC) Q. Okay. And who were its ; members?
:8> A. I can assume that those members were generally (9) made up of those people that were in the gypsum industry. ao) Q. And do you know any of the other i members of c n the Gypsum Association besides Kaiser Gypsum? (i2) A. I have no personal knowledge. (U) MS. JACKSON: Clearly it's outside the scope <14) of the notice, we're talking about Kaiser Gypsum. Certainly tisi not any !other companies are at issue here, j (13) MR. BERGMAN: Q. Were other manufacturers of in ) gypsum products involved in the Gypsum Association? (19) MS. JACKSON: Objection, outside the scope of d?> the notice. (20 ) THE WITNESS: I can assume so. I mean I know (2 ii we weren't the only member. (2 2 ) MR. BERGMAN: Q. Okay. Do you know how many (23) members there were? ! 24) A. No. (25) Q. Do you know what the Gypsum Association did
;Gypsum's involvement (3) in the Gypsum Association? I understand that's a broad ; ;7) question but hopefully we can hone in from there. i (at A. Well, as I understand it we.were a member. I (9) Q. And did Kaiser Gypsum attend ;meetings of the :io> Gypsum Association? j (in A. I have no direct knowledge of that but we (12 > probably attended as members do. I (13) Q. Who at Kaiser Gypsum, and by that I don't mean <i4) the individual, but what entity, what officer of Kaiser cm ' Gypsum would have been responsible for ; maintaining or C5i attending meetings of the Gypsum Association?
1:17 1 A. I don't know that anyone would have had a ubi responsibility to
attend. (19) Q. Who would have, who, which !Kaiser Gypsum (2 0 > officers would have attended meetings of the Gypsum 21 ; )Association? i (2 2 ) A. From time to time any of them Imight have (22. attended. I (2<n Q. Okay. Did the Gypsum Association conduct, did (25) Kaiser .Gypsum participate in any joint research ;efforts in
water, and Nos, 5 and 6 would come ) premixed; is that correct? c ; A. That's my understanding. :m Q. Okay, Would the application of the joint (3) compounds, and I'm now talking about merely just for the n > sake of expediting this, between sheets of dry wall, would (8) the application as opposed to the mixing of these six (9) products be similar? 110) A. As far as I know, yes. !11) Q. I want to turn briefly to a subj ect matter ( i2 > regarding, that it's been identified in our deposition (i?) notice and that is the Gypsum Association. And then I'll U4i turn back to these products in a few minutes. If you would (1-*>) please, look on your answers to our interrogatories, No. 10.
A. What page would that be? *-) Q. Thatwouldbe Page 6. Your interrogatory ;iaj indicates that you believe that Kaiser Gypsum was a member <i> of the Gypsum Association from approximately
Page 53
(i) during the period that Kaiser Gypsum was a member of that (2 ) entity? (3) A. What it did? (4) Q. Yes. (5) A. I don't understand that question. (6) Q. You'd indicated its purpose was to serve its I'M members and my question is what did it do in service of its (9) membership? j (5) MS. JACKSON: If you know. | ao) MR. PETTY: He's not being offered !as a Gypsum (in Association -! (12) MS. JACKSON: Right. ; (13) THE WITNESS: I don't, you know, I haven't (H) seen the by-laws of the Gypsum Association or anything. I (isi do know that they probably had meetings to discuss issues of (15) industrial importance. (id MR. BERGMAN: Okay and--
!
Page 55
| (1 ) conjunction with the Gypsum | Association? 1(2) A. I don't know. '(3) Q. Did Kaiser Gypsum receive publications from (4) the Gypsum 'Association? (5) A. I don't know. I would assume that we probably (> did as members, jwould receive publications that were sent H) out to all members.
O) Q. Did the Gypsum Association conduct any (9) research into hazards ;associated with asbestos to the best 110) of 'your knowledge? c i) A. I don't know, j (12) Q. Did Kaiser Gypsum participate in any research :i3) with the Gypsum Association referring or relating to the C4) hazards associated with asbestos?
us) A. I don't know. (is) Q. Did the Gypsum Association --
1952 to (2 0 ) 1978. Is that correct to the best of your knowledge? c :: A. Yes. 22) Q. Whatwas the Gypsum 'j Association, sir?
A. Well, I believe the Gypsum Association is u o still in existence. (25> Q. What is the Gypsum Association
(10) A. And I've never seen any of those minutes or (19) anything. (20) Q. Okay.
(2D A. I'm saying that, I'm speculating actually. I <221 shouldn't do that. (23) MS. JACKSON: Yeah. (24) MR. BERGMAN: Q. Okay. And just responding (251 to counsel's objection which is well taken, I'm concerned
well, insofar as (i7> Kaiser Gypsum was
involved with the Gypsum Association, did (is) it receive any information relating to thermal insulation (15) products as
opposed to gypsum prodqcts? (20 ) MS. JACKSON: Objection, outside the scope of 12:1 the notice. There's no indication that Kaiser Gypsum ever (221
Tooker & Antz
(415) 392-0650
Page 50 to Page 55
8SA
Pickner vs. Owens-Coming Joseph Ross Hobby 11/4/98
XMAX(10/10)
manufactured or your client was exposed to technical bulletins?
and then my letter of September 29th
any products i:;! entitled generically
: i'( A. Yes.
clarified exactly what we were seeking,
"thermal insulation" from Kaiser (24)
.2 0 ; MS. JACKSON: Can I interrupt you intended doi application. And I'm trying to
Gypsum.
just for a
[zdminute, Counsel, because find out how Kaiser Gypsum (2o> intended
:251 MR. BERGMAN: Q. You can go
again the notice has designated (2 2 ! 0325 |its asbestos-containing joint compounds to
ahead and answer.
as the document you wish to inquire on, and be (2 D mixed.
Page 56
we have not (2 2 ) been provided nor did we | anticipate that the 326 and 327 (24) which
(22 ) A. I'm not sure I can answer - 1 don't know what (23) you want from me.
*i A. I have no direct knowledge what Iare not on the notice would be inquired on. So iYou know, I'm trying to answer your .24;
we may have ( 2) received from the
j to (2 =) that extent the witness has not seen question.
Gypsum Association. My response to
these two pages before.
| (25) Q. I know you are, sir.
your <3> earlier question is I'm sure as members we received general 4)
Page 58
Page 60
information. I have never seen a
(U MR. BERGMAN: Okay.
| <i) A. We have a powder and we have
document that came from the
(2 ) Q. I'd like to ask you some questions, :water and there's (2 ) directions on the
Gypsum Association that comes to my
sir, on, (3) and, maybe if you could refer in :bag.
mind.
conjunction with Exhibit 6 (4; to Exhibit 4,
; :?) Q. Okay.
ci! Q. Okay. And are you aware, do you refer with the two documents in conjunction | (4) A. Okay. Now how they intend it
know whether or not the Gypsum
(5) with one another.
to be mixed, I ss don't know how to
Association had any involvement with (s>
(O MS. JACKSON: Do we have Exhibit 4? !answer that.
thermal insulation products as opposed to
(?) THE WITNESS: Exhibit 4 did you say? (6) Q. Okay. Let me try to ask a few
gypsum products?
| (3) MR. BERGMAN: Q. I'm sorry, I
questions then n> to be a little more
:si A. I have no personal knowledge, misspoke, Page so 4 of your
specific.
do) Q. Do you know whether Kaiser
interrogatories.
i (?) A. Okay.
Gypsum received t in information from the uo) A. And what was y o u r-
; (3) Q. Was it the intention of Kaiser
Gypsum Association concerning any tests
(in Q. I just wanted to direct your
Gypsum, and (ioi again I'm referring to the
: 12) conducted on the safe levels of
attention to the U2 > products that were listed Ifirst four products listed in <11 > your
asbestos exposure of gypsum us)
on Page 4 of your interrogatories Q3) and .interrogatory answers, the dry compound,
products?
then look at the Kaiser Gypsum.
;was it the (12 > intention that they be poured
(14) A. I have no knowledge. I've never ii4) A. Okay.
j out of a bag into a bucket of fi3> water?
s e e n a (i-) document from the Gypsum (15) Q. Sir, I'd like to direct your attention (14) A. I don't know.
Association.
to ' 1 6 ) Products 1 through 4 on Page 4 of : 15 ) Q. Was it the intention that Kaiser
; i i ! Q. Sir, I'm handing you what has
your interrogatories. And (i'> if you could
Gypsum dry :is> joint compounds be mixed
been marked as <n> Exhibits. Mr. Hobby, describe in as great detail and as extensive with an electric mixer?
you're looking at your watch. Did usi you
(iei detail as you can the process under
it n ) A. I don't know.
want to take a break?
which (is) asbestos-containing joint
| (is) Q. Was it the intention of Kaiser
a?) A. I was thinking maybe a break, compounds manufactured by Kaiser 1201
|Gypsum, were (is) there any directions
short break (2o> would be -
Gypsum were mixed. What was the intended j governing or instructing the users of (2 0 ;
2 i! Q. I have about two or three more process for mixing 2 1 Kaiser Gypsum
i Kaiser Gypsum asbestos-containing joint
minutes on this (2 2 ) subject matter.
asbestos-containing joint compounds?
;compounds on howto (2 1 ) m ixupthe
(23) A. Okay.
(2 2 ) MS. JACKSON: Objection, vague. :product?
(24) Q. And then we'll take a break.
Are you (23) referring to at a job site or
| (2 2 ) MS. JACKSON: Objection, asked
(-5) A. That's certainly--
mixed in the manufacturing (24) process? !and answered.
Page 57
(25) MR. BERGMAN: Yeah, thank you for I (23) THE WITNESS: I don't know. There
that
'were (24) directions on the bag to the best
;i) Q. Does that work within your time frames?
Page 59
| of my knowledge. Now 1 :25> haven't j committed those directions to memory. If we
2) A. I just needed to step out for a
1) clarification, Counsel.
had a
few minutes. ::<i Q. Okay. Would you rather do it now?
(2 ) Q. How were the users of Kaiser Gypsum joint (3) compounds supposed to
Page 61
4' A. No, let's go ahead and finish
| mix up the products?
bag
what we're 5) doing.
|(4i A. I don't know,
i (2) MR. BERGMAN: Q. Do you know
MS. JACKSON: What again is the
| (5) Q. Was there a manner in which
'that there were (3) directions on the back,
exhibit i
*152) number?
| Kaiser Gypsum <6) joint compounds were sir?
MR. BERGMAN: I'm sorry, Counsel, Isupposed to be mixed?
: (; i a . I've been told there were.
it's 325.
1>~( A. I assume that there was some
:) Q. Okay.
Q. Do you know what this document, sort of fi) directions on the package on
5) A. And I was also told that there
is, sir?
how to mix and what quantities (^ with were warning <?) labels on the bags.
A. it says it's a Technical Bulletin. ;water to get, and that varies to get the
| (3) Q. I understand,
id Q. And were technical bulletins
!necessary cioj consistency that the
j (9) MS. JACKSON: Are you close to the
prepared by (in Kaiser Gypsum for the
craftsperson would be looking for.
' end of your d i) questioning?
benefit of its customers?
d i ! Q. Okay.
j d i) MR. BERGMAN: Yeah I am, yeah,
:=i A. I u n d e rs ta n d th e y w e re .
:ns A. B eyon d th a t I'm n o t sure w h a t Mr. H obby. ( 1 2 ) Well, I'm not but Mr H obby
:14! Q. And were technical bulletins
you're asking (i3) me.
Ihas been very patient and this <13: would be
prepared by <isi Kaiser Gypsum for the
:i4) Q. Well, our deposition and again i a fine time for a break. Counsel, I have
benefits of the users of its products?
I'm not, Mr. U5> Hobby, you're doing a great Isome (14 ) things to say on the record but
(i4i A. That's my understanding.
job, our deposition notice d> sought
IMr. Hobby doesn't need to be a$>
(it ) Q. Is Exhibit 6 the type of information information on how, the use and application belabored by that.
that 19) would have been contained in
of Kaiser in> Gypsum joint compounds,
! (1 o' THE WITNESS: Well, I'd like to hear
Page 55
toPage 61
(415) 392-0650
Tooker & Antz
Pickner vs. Owens-Corning Joseph Ross Hobby
11/4/98
XMAX(11/11)
them.
: '
MR. PETTY:' And how are you
tthe intended manner in which Kaiser :=)
MR. BERGMAN: Go ahead nd take showing it in this <i * r deposition?
iGypsum joint compound was mixed?
your break. c i'-Y o u deserve it.
j i " 5 MR. BERGMAN: Okay. Let's break j <i " : A. I have no direct knowledge of
.
THE WITNESS: Okay.
for a, let's us just break for a second. I'm that. As I I?! indicated before the break,
}:o! THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Do you want |using a video monitor showing :i?> it to the !you know, I'm not a ::?) craftsperson. I
to go off the <215 record the video record at |witness. It's not being dubbed onto the tape noted that the bags had direction on
this time?
;in (2 ?) any manner.
(them. cc> I don't know if those were gyp
:::) MR. BERGMAN: Let's go offthe
1:2 i ! MR. PETTY: That's what I wanted to | - compound bags or not. But c d they
record entirely
for a little bit.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Offthe
record-^t 2 s> a.m.
insure and (22) would like to make sure that i is the case. i (23) MR. BERGMAN: Yeah. That is the
jIhad directions on them. This appeared to
be using a 122 mixer in one case, appeared to be hand mixing in another
Page 62
i) (Brief recess). 2) (WHEREUPON, PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBITS 14 THROUGH (3) 17 WERE MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION).
case and - (24) that is the case. I (2S) THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Do you want 'to go offthe
! record?
Page 64
(23) case. It would seem logical that something along those (24) lines would happen. But I'm not sure I can answer your (25) question in the affirmative.
Page 66
!J> THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on the j (2 i MR. BERGMAN: No, let's stay on the (1! Q. Is there anything that you saw in
record at (5) a.m.
record.
that tape 21 that appeared to you to be an
(5) MR. BERGMAN: Q. When we
j (') MS. JACKSON: Can you identify for us incorrect use of a Kaiser c<) Gypsum joint
broke, Mr. Hobby, w e n : were discussing jwhere <4) this tape came from if we don't
compound?
Page 4 of your responses to interrogatories !have Exhibit 14, where the (?) tape came
(4> A. Again I have no direct
(85 and we were discussing the manner in |from, who made the tape? Do you have
knowledge of the use as <c> Itw as
which these four bagged (*) or dry joint
'some (6) informational issues for us?
intended back at those particular point in
compounds were mixed up, and I believe that j !") MR. BERGMAN: Sure. It was a tape time. I :5) think I could go out and take a
you (:o > had indicated that you didn't have |that was o> made by Dr. Longo, my
sack of most any powdered n product
absolute'knowiigb oh tin that We
!associate, the tape it's on, and (9) identified that was on the market today and
discussed with yWur counsel in recognition in the discovery in this case. It was my t io duplicate that '8: scenario, and I guess
that a 12 long time has passed. So I don't associate has paired it down to about four or you're referring prim arily to the (5)
want you to at all feel (13) like I'm pressuring five minutes (in but of course all of them
airborne -
you for an answer, Mr. Hobby. If you U4>
are available and have been U2 ) available do) Q. No, actually, sir, I'm not. I'm not
don't know th answer to the question well for your review.
referring m i to the airborne matter in that
just take it at fis>:that and if your lawyers
(13) MS. JACKSON: Okay. So this is an I'm referring more to the 112> manner in
and us have to take something on as later edited :> version ~
which the workmen or the individuals
on, that's fine. ! just don't want you to think for | us) MR. BERGMAN: That is correct.
depicted in (13) Exhibit 14 poured the joint
a (i 7> minute --you're obviously working
(19) MS. JACKSON;- - of a tape made by compound into the bucket and (14) mixed it
very hard and you're in a <ia> difficult
I Dr. Longo.
up.
position and I do appreciate that, sir.
| <i") MR. BERGMAN: That is correct.
:i5) MS. JACKSON: Insofar as the
as What I'd like to do at this time, Mr.
(lei MS. JACKSON: Okay,
witness has not
seen this tape before
Hobby, !2o> is show you a videotape that j c.5) MR. PETTY: And I just would not
we have made our best efforts to ( i` )
has been identified in this <2i> case as one necessarily (20> accept your representation comply with discovery requirements in the
of plaintiffs exhibits and the videotape shows that it's been produced in (2 ii discovery in State of (is Washington, I think this is
C2) mixing up some Kaiser Gypsum joint this case because I believe i have
outside the scope of the (iso notice, I think
powder and first I'd just (23) like you to look propounded (22) Kaiser Gypsum specific
this lacks foundation, and I wish you would
at and then I'll have some questions to ask jwritten discovery to you for which (23) you
2 0 ! move along on some of these topics.
(24) you about it. And that videotape is
provided answers and even supplemental
21) MR. BERGMAN: Q. Would you
designated s Exhibit (25) 14. And I'll have a j answers but I do (24) not recall this
like to seethe (221 tape again, sir.
few questions afterwards to ask you
Jvideotape being described in any way, shape (23) MS. JACKSON: No, spare me.
Page 63 i d regarding that.
| cm or form in those responses.
j
Page 65
(24) THE WITNESS: No.no. 125) MR. BERGMAN: Q. Okay. I guess was there
c) A. Is there anything I'm supposed to focus on?
:i) MS. JACKSON: I guess insofar as it's an (2 ) exhibit to the deposition we would ask
Page 67
:) Q. Why don't you just watch it and it's ;for the copy reflecting the edit to be -
(1 ' anything, I understand this is 20 years
about two'.4> or three minutes long.
give it to us.
later but based on (2 ; your knowledge and
(si A. Okay.
' 4: MR. BERGMAN: W ell give to you.
based on your preparation for this o
Q. Watch it as best you can and if That's fine.
deposition and based on our deposition
you want to m see it again or something
<') MS. JACKSON: Yeah. Okay.
notice was there (4. anything that you saw
that's fine as well.
:*5i (Videotape being shown).
that the individuals on Exhibit 14 did (5) in
MR. PETTY: Matt, what videotape is (i) MR. BERGMAN: Okay, let's stop now. mixing that joint compound that appeared to
this? You ( sai d something about Exhibit (8) Q. First of all, Mr. Hobby, would you you to be an (9) inappropriate or improper
14.
like to see (5) that tape again?
application of Kaiser Gypsum (7) products?
(12; MR. BERGMAN: It's one of the MLS ( 10) A. I may at some point. Right now (3) MS. JACKSON: Objection. Objection,
tapes. , !ii) MR. PETTY: 1don't know that I've
n i) Q. Okay.
calls for (9i speculation. This witness is not offered to testify about no appropriate or
J seen it (12) unless this is one that you
( 12) A. Until I know I'll ask.
inappropriate methods to foix product and
showed in another deposition,
(13) Q. Okay. My question to you, sir, is I'm ill) not going to let him answer that
m i MR. BERGMAN: It's not, I haven't
after (14> reviewing that tape designated as question.
shown it in (n> a deposition.
Exhibit 14 does that (i5) appear to you to be (12) MR. BERGMAN: Q. Do you know
Tooker & Antz
(415) 392-0650
Page 61
67
bsa
Pickner \ s. Owens-Corning Joseph Ross Hobby
11/4/98
XMAX(12/12)
the
appropriate -
the steps and we've kind of :i5> gone
MR. BERGMAN: Q. 1964 to 1978.
' *1* Counsel, are you instructing the
through one step of the mixing and now I'm ' i4> A. I don't know what Kaiser
witness not ;:s, to answer?
'wondering iio) what the next step would be. Gypsum knew regarding (is;
r.i- MS. JACKSON: ! am indeed.
! ;i~) A. I'm trying to be responsive to requirements for sanding.
MR. BERGMAN: And the basis of
you.
! i5) Q. Okay. I'rri going to show you a
that, if you (isi would, is that is was not
; (is) Q. I understand,
little bit more (1 1 ; of Exhibit 14. I understand
within the scope of the --
ids') a . You understand I'm not a
.there will be some objections (is; to those
:i&> MS. JACKSON: Outside the scope of jcraftsperson. I i:c-> understand the
and I'll have a few more questions to ask
the notice, (2d lacks foundation, calls for
:material was applied, okay, there may
you (19) regarding that. You need to turn it
speculation and we are not <2 1 ; offering him have (2 D been a tape applied at some
on.
as a witness as to the appropriateness of the |point in time. There may have <221 been i >2 0 ) (Videotape being shown).
:2 2 ! methods that whoever it was in the tape Isome sort of smoothing that occurred, : 2 i) MR, BERGMAN: Why don't we see if
used to mix (23) products.
i Depending on (2 2 ) what the final intent ,we can turn (2 2 ) thesoundoff.
:i4> MR. PETTY: Matt, you should know for the wallboard may have been, there j :23) THE VIDEOGRAPHER: All the way
I'm in a ::=) difficult position. I can't see your * (20 might have been some sort of a paint )down?
videotape over the
applied or texture (221 applied. It would 1.24) MR. BERGMAN: Yeah,
Page 68
||-v-a-r-y---fr--o-m---e--a-c-h---a-n-d---e-v-e--r-y--j-o-b--,-w--o--u-l-d--v--a-r-y. i :2 s> Okay. That's fine.
phone and I'm a little surprised that
Page 70
j
Page 72
you're using a tape 12: that you would not ; <1 > Now I don't know if that's responsive 1 :i) Q. Mr. Hobby, does the sanding
have produced to me before today.
!to you but I'm trying (2 ) to be.
Iprocess that was (2 ) depicted in Exhibit 14
ry. MR. BERGMAN: I thought you'd be 1(3) Q. I think it's quite responsive, sir.
` appearto you as a representative of c*.
here, Ken, (4; b u t-
You (4) testified there was a smoothing that i Kaiser Gypsum to be a proper use of Kaiser
(=' MR. PETTY: So you intended to
Iwould go on in this (5) process?
Gypsumjoint (4) compound?
surprise me i<5> there today in person.
(6) a . There may be.
! :5) MS. JACKSON: Objection, calls for
1 MR. BERGMAN: Q. Do you know, O) Q. May be. Can you describe what l (6) speculation, outside the ken of this
Mr. Hobby, (8) whether in mixing Kaiser
|that smoothing (si would have been?
witness. We're not cm calling him and
Gypsum joint compounds it was (&i intended 1:8) A. Well, l think that can vary from ;offering him to testify about the ;s>
that the material be poured from sacks into \a trowel cioj application, a trowel, to
j appropriateness or the proper methods of
120! buckets?
basically take the lumps or often (in
the use in any o> particular application, I'm
; ii) A. I don't know about your use o f when you put a material like that on a
not going to permit him to (ioj answer.
the w o rd ; i2) "intended." I would
surface, you know, it (121 lumps or it
: ( ii) MR. BERGMAN: Q. Does the
suppose that material may have been
!tends not to be evenly applied. You may sanding of joint d2) compound depicted on
!12) poured but that would have been an i use a (13) trowel. You may use a sanding i Exhibit 14, Mr. Hobby, appear to you to
individual decision by (i4) the
!device of some sort.
! :i3) be, and I quote from the notice of
craftsperson.
:1 4 ) Q. What kind of a sanding device i deposition, "The intended (14) application of
11=) Q. Are you aware of any instructions would have been (15) used?
;Kaiser Gypsum joint compound"?
by Kaiser :i5) Gypsum to its customers not (is) THE WITNESS: Again that m ight-- i (is; MS. JACKSON: Same objection.
to pour joint compound from a
bag into ( ii) MS. JACKSON: If you know.
:i6) THE WITNESS: Am (supposed to
a bucket? (i) A. I am not aware.
(13) THE WITNESS: That would vary by application.
.answer? I've ( in gotten confused,
j (is) MS. JACKSON: No.
usi Q. Can you now, I'd now like to
(19) MR. BERGMAN: Q. Was it
; as) MR. BERGMAN; You're instructing
broaden my (2 0 > questioning directing your anticipated by Kaiser (2 0 ) Gypsum that dried the witness (201 not to answer, Counsel,
attention to Page 4 once again of (2i>
Ijoint compound would be sanded.
j (2 D MS. JACKSON: I'm sorry, I'm
responses to interrogatories, to all six of the I (2D A. I don't know the answer about making my (2 2 ; objection. I did not instruct
products :2 2 ) listed on that document, and what Kaiser (2 2 ) Gypsum's anticipation :him not to answer.
ask if you can describe how (23) once
was.
(23) MR. BERGMAN: Okay.
mixed, Kaiser Gypsum joint compounds
| (22; Q. Would it have besen proper to
(24) THE WITNESS: I got confused. Give
were applied to (24) walls of sheet rock?
sand dry joint (24! compound?
'me your (25) question one more time.
2 ' A. How they were applied? (i) Q. Yes. Page 69
| :25) MS. JACKSON: Object to the use of the term
!
Page 71
!
Page 73
; ;i> MR. BERGMAN: Q. I understand, .sir. Does the (2) sanding of Kaiser Gypsum
.2 : A. I have no direct knowledge on ! (i) "proper." Vague.
'joint compound depicted in Exhibit (3; 14
how they were (2 : applied. That would | (2 ) THE WITNESS: I would think in those appear to be the intended application of that
be, vary by craftsperson.
(3) circumstances in which I described
product?
Q. After Kaiser Gypsum joint
where it was necessary to ;4 smooth the ; 4) MS. JACKSON: Lacks foundation.
compounds were / applied to sheets of dry .application, there would be some method
(=> THE WITNESS: Well, again I don't
wall what was the next step in <5> preparing !possibly (5! using a trowel or possibly using knowwhen (6; this film was made, whether
or finishing the job for eventual painting?
sanding or something like (6) that to smooth it was made in 1970 or not. I <7. sort of
: 1 A. Well, again that m ight--
;it out. So it may be proper, it may not be (?) I doubt it or in that time frame that we're
:s) MS. JACKSON: Assumes facts notin proper.
'talking O) about. So to the extent that this
evidence. 4; On a general basis not all walls ! <8; MR. BERGMAN: Q. Did Kaiser
:film represents how it ' was done back
may have been painted, you ;io> know,
;Gypsum know that (8; users of its joint
then, I'm not sure, you know. If sanding was
ii: : MR. BERGMAN: Q. I'm just trying, compound may use sanding as a process to i r.o : necessary to do the job, certainly the
maybe you ; i 2 ) can just, you know I'm trying I (10) smooth the dried material?
to work through the scenario 113 ; of how
j a i ; MS. JACKSON: I'm going to object
:method that these : ii) people used would be one way to accomplish that.
Kaiser Gypsum joint compounds were used insofar as <12) what Kaiser Gypsum knew. (12) MR. BERGMAN: Q. Okay. One of
and I'm ;i4> trying to, you know, go through There is no time frame involved.
The topics (ii) that we've designated has
Page 67 to Page 73
(415) 392-0650
Tooker & Antz
BSA
Pickner vs. Owens-Corning Joseph Ross Hobby
11/4/98
XMAX(13/13)
been sales of Kaiser Gypsum joint c n
c ! MS. JACKSON: If you know.
:on the greater area other than *.? what we
compound iri Portland and greater
: 13) THE WITNESS: Well, one of two
talked about generally that there was
Vancouver are#; And can V.s'i' you, was
i ways that I u d would imagine. One would distribution id in the that area in the years
there any sin#'ntity that distributed your 1be that the consumer could go to a :is :
'you've inquired aboqt.
::5) products in those geographical areas? :supplier and buy that. Or there may, the
I ' 12) MR. BERGMAN: Yeah, and as I
;i` > A. Entity? I'm not ~
contractor, (i> assuming that's the
indicated this is C3i not an area I intend to
::?) Q. Cnpan.
;consumer, may buy directly from the ; : d
1spend much time on. Are there, have .id
;: ? A. Oh, I don't know but I would
company.
Iyou prepared - let's go off the record for a
assume not.
; (13) MR. BERGMAN: Q. Would Kaiser minute.
c d MS. JACKSON: I'm going to object Gypsum sell (i9i directly to users of Kaiser 1115) THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This marks
that it'^ (CD vague. '
Gypsum - would Kaiser Gypsum co> joint the end of (ls> Videotape No. 1, Volume
c o MR. BERGMAN: Yeah. I'm just trying compound be sold directly from Kaiser
No. 1 in the deposition of Joseph '.id
to go c o from the vague to the specific.
Gypsum to c :i customers in the Portland IHobby. Going off the record. The time is
Q. And how were joint compounds and Vancouver area?
11:46 a.m.
manufactured by <s> Kaiser Gypsum
c o MS. JACKSON: Asked and
(is) (Discussion off the record).
distributed in the greater Portland and
answered.
; :i9) THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back
Page 74
C3i THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, what did you say?
;on the record. (20> At 11:49 a.m. This marks the beginning of Videotape No. 2,
; i ) Vancouver areas?
(24) MS. JACKSON: I'm said it was asked ! c i) Volume 1 in the deposition of Joseph
o MS. JACKSON: Could you ask a
and (25) answered. You answered it.
Hobby.
foundational (3) question as to whether or not they were?
Page 76
| >22 ) MR. BERGMAN: Q. Mr. Hobby, in preparation (2D for your testimony here
is) MR. BERGMAN: Q. Yeah. Were
id THE WITNESS: Yes.
Itoday have you reviewed some of the c ; >
Kaiser Gypsum (si joint compounds
c) MR. BERGMAN: Q. Okay. Would
'job sites that Mr. Pickner worked at and
distributed in greater Portland and (6)
those primarily <3> be large dry wall
Isome of the c d contractors that may have
Vancouver area In the 1964 to 78 time
contractors?
^supplied products to thosei
frame? cm A. Vancouver, Washington?
(<n A. I don't know about the size of
the (5) contractors.
j
Page 78
o) Q. Yes, sir.
(6) Q. Would they generally be dry wall | (i) particular job sites?
f - ) MS. JACKSON: Insofar as you've
contractors c i as opposed to householders I o A. Yes.
asked for (ioi information outside the years or small consumers?
1(3) Q. And can you tell me whether or
that the manufacturer of these <id products (0) A. Well, yeah, I don't think we
not Kaiser (4) Gypsum supplied products,
would involve asbestos I would object to that. would normally :d sell to the person
supplied joint compound to any of id those
112) MR. BERGMAN: That objection is
putting a deck on the back of their house |job sites to the best of your knowledge?
well taken, U3> Counsel. Let me rephrase (ioi or something. But we would sell to (0) A. Yes.
that.
contractors.
! id Q. And what job sites were those,
n o Q. Were asbestos-containing - well, (ID Q. Okay. Do you, and by you I mean sir?
were Kaiser us> Gypsum joint compounds Kaiser ( d Gypsum, have any knowledge of (0) A. There were none.
manufactured by - were Kaiser Gypsum
any of the contractors that :i3) Kaiser
!: 9) Q. There were none. None of the job
a) joint compounds distributed in Portland Gypsum supplied joint compound to between 'sitesthat (io> you reviewed indicated
and Vancouver to Metropolitan areas
1964 and (14) 1975?
| Kaiser Gypsum products were used?
between 1964 and 1975?
(is) MS. JACKSON: I object insofar as ] m> A. That's correct.
119) A. Yes.
you use the a 6) word "contractors." I don't I ( i 2 > MR. BERGMAN: Okay. All right. At
:i's> Q. Okay. And can you describe the think we have any knowledge of (17) what this time (i3> why don't we take a break. I'll
manner in (2oi which the products were
these entities are. What their businesses are indicate the exhibits I :i4) want to inquire
distributed?
is not (13) at this point knowable by us.
into and hopefully we can carry on.
c u MS* JACKSON: Objection, vague.
(10) MR. BERGMAN: That's well taken, (15) THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the
:co THE WITNESS: I don't know what
co) Q. I'd like to inquire whether or not record at (14; a.m.
you mean by C3) manner. Did we sell them? Kaiser ci> Gypsum has any knowledge of ii7) (Luncheon recess, 11:49 a.m. to
c o MR. BERGMAN: Q. Yes.
any of the customers that bought 1221
1:36p.m.). <i8)
coi <:d cci c d
cr.i "A. Yes. Page 75
directly from Kaiser Gypsum joint compound products in (23) the '64 to 7 5 time period? | (24) A. Yes, 1think we have
! (24) -- 0O 0-- (25)
1
i ---------------------------------------------------------
|
Page 79
: ) Q. Would Kaiser Gypsum sell them |knowledge.
to, was there a c> wholesaler in Portland (25) Q. What are some of the some of
and Vancouver Metropolitan areas o
the customers who
responsible, primarily responsible for distributing your ;o joint compound products
Page 77
in the *64 to 75 time period?
11 ) purchased joint compound in the '64 to
A. The term "wholesaler" I'm not 75 period in (2 ) Portland?
sure of. There <<) were certainly
(3) MS. JACKSON: I'm going to object to
suppliers.
the (4t question as overbroad. My
c Q. Okay. Was there a primary or a understanding in our conversation (S) of
principal tai supplier? I guess let me try to yesterday you were interested in inquiring as
-, put the question together (v: this way. How to the (5) plaintiffs job sites and suppliers
|u> (WHEREUPON, PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBITS 18 AND 19 (2) WERE MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION). <3i
i 4) AFTERNOON SESSION (D November 4, 1998 1:36 P.M. :3) -- 0O 0-- |(7) JOSEPH R. HOBBY (8) having been previously duly sworn, | (9) testified further as follows: coj cd l EXAMINATION BY MR. BERGMAN j (RESUMED) (12).
} would Kaiser Gypsum joint compounds go that may or may not have supplied to i (13) THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on the
from coi the, get from the factory to the
those particular job sites. I think we're (> record at 1:36 (14/ p.m.
consumer in fh Portland :: i ) area in the 1964 to 75 time frame?
| prepared to answer those questions for you (15) MR. BERGMAN: Q. Mr. Hobby, 1but are not o> prepared to give you answers Iyou recognize <i0) you're still under oath?
Tooker & Antz
(415) 392-0650
Page 73 (0 Page 79
9SA
Pickner vs. Owens-Coming Joseph Ross Hobby 11/4/98
XMAX(14/14)
: A. Yes.
A. For users?
>2 4 ; Q. Okay. Looking a little bit more at
Q. Okay. If you would, please, on ! i ; Q. No, in general.
;your (is; answer to Interrogatory No. 7, you
Page 5 of your a?) interrogatories, I'd like to I (is) A. In general? Yes, would I say i indicate that Kaiser as; Gypsum learned in
direct your attention to aoj Question No. 7. : : MS. STEELE; What number?
there was an a n awareness.
'the 70s that users of some : ;
l (2 0 ) Q. Okay. When was that awareness j asbestos-containing products could be at a
; : - j MR. BERGMAN: Question No. 7.
gained?
j risk of inhaling as > quantities of respirable
Q. The question is post had to
i a n A. I don't know.
i asbestos fibers sufficient to pose <:>; a
Kaiser Gypsum:
! ;2 2 : Q. Okay. Wasn't there a time prior ' hazard to human health,
"State the date on which you learned |to the early (23) 70s when Kaiser Gypsum '2-5 that asbestos poses a hazard to human | became aware that asbestos could 24!
j t e n j (2 0 > Was there some time prior to the
early 1970s
when Kaiser Gypsum
Page 80
jpose a potential hazard to its employees? (25i A. Yes.
became aware that larger quantities of a:. | asbestos dust could pose a risk to human
health." Would you please, sir, read the second
Page 82
health? (23) MS. JACKSON: I'm going to have to
;j : paragraph of Kaiser Gypsum's
u> Q. And approximately w h e n --
object that (24> the question is vague,
response?
(2) A. I've seen documents that would overbroad.
A. "Without waiving said
lead me to (3) believe that they had
(25) THE WITNESS: I think I just
objections (S) Kaiser Gypsum responds |knowledge. I don't know when they (4)
i answered that
that it became aware <s) generally
|first had knowledge,
sometime that the 1970s the users o i of j <5> Q. I understand that, okay. I want to
Page 84
some asbestos-containing building
parse out 6) a little bit more, if I could, sir, I (i) with my last -- the same answer would
products is> [could be at health -- excuse jyour response to n> Interrogatory No. 7. It Iapply that the issue, (2 ) the quantity of
me] could be at (9> risk of inhaling
indicates that Kaiser Gypsum became 8) |asbestos fibers is not something that I can
quantities of respirable (io> asbestos
aware generally some time in the 70 s that j (3; focus on. I can focus on when we knew
fibers sufficient to pose a a i: potential users of its O) asbestos products could face and we have at least (4: one document that
hazard to their health."
a health risk. My question to <ioi you, sir, is, says that we knew in, what did you say, ts>
-2 ) Q. I'm going to ask you a number of can you be any more specific as to when in 1972?
questions, (i3) sir, concerning this question ( ii) the 70s Kaiser Gypsum became aware (6j MR. BERGMAN: Q. Okay.
and the response to try to <io flush out a
that users of its U2) products could face a (7) A. I've never reflected on the
little better Kaiser Gypsum's position. In usi health problem?
quantity. I've (e> never seen a document
general it would appear to me, sir, would you (13) A. Well, I don't know. I have seen that reflects on the quantity whether <si
not agree, <isj that the answer to
a document (wi where warning labels
there was more or less.
Interrogatory No. 7 relates to users of a?) jwere put onto their products and (is>
(loi Q. Okay. And I'm not trying to
- asbestos-containing products?
i certainly that would be I guess a point in mislead you in ( iu any way, sir. I'm trying
;-s> A. Yes, I would say that.
time certain (isj where there was an
to understand a little better <1 2 ; Kaiser
a?> Q. Okay. I want to pose some
awareness.
Gypsum's position and let me try to
questions to you taoj generally, sir, not with (17) Q. Okay, And we'll get to those
rephrase the (i3> question and see if that
respect to users of (2 i> asbestos-containing documents later, <iq) sir, but if I represented helps. It may, it may not. It c o would
products but asbestos in general. When
to you that those documents are
dated indicate to me from reading your response
did Kaiser Gypsum become aware that 1972 would that be a fair statement?
to (is) interrogatory No. 7 that there was,
asbestos in general (23) posed a potential | (20 MS. JACKSON: I'm going to object there is some ti6i distinction regarding the
hazard to human health?
j insofar as (2D if you have a document that quantity of asbestos in (i7> relationship to
24j a . When did they first become
Icould help the witness then I <2 2 ; would like the human health risk. And I may have a n
aware?
for you to tell him. He was not employed by misread your interrogatory in that respect in
Q. Yes, sir.
the (23) company in those years and his
which case a n please correct me in that
Page 81
knowledge is from documentary (24) review. regard. But it would appear as 1201 though (25) MR. BERGMAN: I understand that. I from that answer that Kaiser Gypsum may
A. I have no idea.
understand
have been (2 i> aware prior to the 70s that
2 ` Q. Okay. Was there a time, was there a time that (3) Kaiser Gypsum
Page 83
a greater quantity of asbestos 221 would have posed a human health risk. That may
became aware of hazards of asbestos in
(i ' that.
be a (23) misreading on my part.
general <<w prior to the time it became aware (2 ! Q. So it would be your testimony, sir, (24) A. Well, all I can tell you is 1don't
that users of its asbestos (Si products could that at (3) the date and we'll peruse those
remember (25) our thought process
face a health risk?
documents in a few minutes, (4; at the date when we answered that interrogatory,
- A. Well, I would answer that in this |that the documents were generated by
and
way, I 7 guess. Asbestos is not a new term in the dictionary. is> Asbestos was
Kaiser (5) Gypsum relating to warnings on its products was the date on is; v/hich Kaiser
Page 85
known way back a long time ago as being Gypsum recognized that Its products could (i) I can't remember that there was a,
what it :- is. So when our people first
7) potentially pose a hazard to its
the issue what would have >2 ; caused us
became aware, I can't answer no> that, customers?
to use the word "quantity."
but - 1don't know if that answers your
ie> A. Well, I wouldn't characterize it Co Q. Okay. So as far as you're
question or a n not. I'm trying to say that exactly as <n you've said that. 1would
concerned you could (4, just as easily say
asb esto s w as n 't a hidden item i i 2>
say th a t that's a p oint in tim e - - w h e re I that Kaiser Gypsum became aware
. necessarily.
have a document that identifies that at
generally (5) in the 70s that its products
i : Q. Right. And was there some time j least at a n that point in time there was posed a hazard to human health m and the
prior to the n.4; early'70s when Kaiser
|that awareness. Now whether or a n not issue of quantities is irrelevant?
Gypsum became aware that asbestos usi there was an awareness prior to that, if
n) MS. JACKSON: I'm going to object
could pose a potential hazard to human
somebody could (i3) show me a
insofar as (8) you want to rewrite the
health?
document then I would know.
answers to interrogatories. He's m not
Page 79 fo Page 85
(415) 392-0650
Tooker & Antz
Pickner vs. Owens-Corning Joseph Ross Hobby
11/4/98
XMAX(15/15)
going to give you a different answer than
document, I guess the answer to your
Gypsum as to " whether or notits
we've already m u submitted. You can ask mu question maybe is yes.
products caused mesothelioma7
your questions, we can go from :id there. m u Q. If you could -
M A. Well, all I know is that the, you
We're not going to reanswer the
1 1 ' A. I d on't know that they
know, there m had been lawsuits in that
interrogatories one m d by one.
!necessarily knew the mu full scope anti particular area and we've dealt
with
iu MR. BERGMAN: That's not what I'm ram ifications o f what that disease was or them. I don't, I haven't been party to
endeavoring u u to do. I'm just trying to
is.
whether or not mm w e've admitted as a
understand what the interrogatory im
uuu Q. That in 1965 the Kaiser
com pany that we, our product is the
means. I'm not trying to rewrite them or
Gypsum's knowledge of (i " i mesothelioma mm cause of mesothe - say it again for
rephrase them or u n anything like that.
: ' ' 7 ? | 'Q. Was Kaiser Gypsum familiar with
u u ; ' ) 1 the term
'TLV"?
M U j A. I don't know.
was limited to the information contained in
i m u Exhibit
1
A. don't know that.
1 uu MS. JACKSON: Absolutely does not,
me.
mu
1 m u MU'
Q. Mesothelioma A. - thelioma Q. Well, let me ask you. does
':o) Q. You can't say one way or the
Iyour din characterization of his testimony is ;Kaiser Gypsum admit '' *' that its products
otherwhether m u Kaiser Gypsum was
! incorrect.
'could have caused mesothelioma7
aware of that?
I'D ) MR. BERGMAN: Q. I'm just asking I m u A. I will not ad m it that.
uui A. There may be a docum ent
II think he cm corrected me Did there come m u MS. JACKSON I'm going to object.
where the term "TLV " c u is there. Now ! a time subsequent to 1965 when c u Kaiser II'm going m u to object only insofar as
whether or not they were fam iliar with
:Gypsum became more conversant with the you're using a term, number one, u : that
that 1041 term , again I w asn't there.
concept of M3) mesothelioma7
i he's clearly not familiar with the definition.
c u Q. And sitting here today you have j'cm> A. I don't know the answ er to that | Number mi > two, he's not a medical expert
no knowledge
i because In c u order to be m ore 1would |You're calling for an c u expert opinion
Page 86 .i other than the documents as to whether
have to know w hat the level w as in
|
Page 88
from him. That's improper
|
MR. BERGMAN: Q Is Kaiser
' Gypsum - what is mm Kaiser Gypsum's
or not Kaiser Gypsum c> was familiar with : mo the first place. And I've told you I d on't j position as to whether or not its
that concept?
know what the m ; level of knowledge
' asbestos-containing jo nt compounds cans
i A. No. No, th a t's right.
jwas.
cancer?
u Q. Sir, I'm handing you Exhibit 7. My I MM Q. Did Kaiser Gypsum at any time
first ) question, sir, is that one of the
'understand that <'> its products could
Page 90
documents that you (S) reviewed with your |potentially cause mesothelioma in the <s>
id MS. JACKSON: Objection, it's
attorneys?
|intended users of those products?
overbroad. The (2) word "cancer"
' ' ' A. Yes, it is.
c n A. I don't know.
encompasses a number of different
u MS. JACKSON: Let me just state for | mm MS. JACKSON: Absolutely no
diseases of cu different parts of the body
the record cu that again this is one of the foundation to that on question
Your client does not have u: cancer
documents that was listed in <- ; the notice j mm t h e WITNESS; You know, we put
u . MR. BERGMAN; He'd be surprised to
by evidently its first numbered page and with j warning labels : 10 > on our packages in 1972 here that.
no id indication that subsequent pages
II believe it was you said. That mm would
u; Q. What is Kaiser Gypsum's position
would be examined on. So <1 2 s insofar as !indicate to me that we knew that there was a as to whether cu or not its products caused
Pages 503 through 508 are attached, we
j health uci hazard. Now whether or not we a cancer of the chest wall?
have only (1 ?> seen them just today. So he j knew that that health hazard <''1 led to
"u MS. JACKSON Objection, lacks
has not seen the rest of this c u but he has | mesothe - I struggle with pronouncing it, I
foundation, Mu calls for calls for medical
seen this.
don't in ) know.
opinion. I'm instructing him mu not to
1- MR. BERGMAN: Q. Okay. Mr.
i< iu MR. BERGMAN: Q. Well, let me
answer.
Hobby, have you, as> let me just make sure 'ask you this: m u Sitting here today what is ; im MR. BERGMAN: Your instructing
I understand your counsel's statement. c u what is Kaiser's position, Kaiser <tu
him not to m :u answer-
You have never seen before today Pages
Gypsum's position on whether or not its
:).u MS. JACKSON: Absolutely
503 through 508 of tib > Exhibit 7?
products could have (lfM'" caused
, m u MR. BERGMAN: - whether or not its
:: cii A. I don't recall th a t I've seen
mesothelioma7
product, m u whether or not the products
them.
j ( lu MS. JACKSON: Sitting here today I manufactured and so d by Kaiser "
moi Q. Okay. Have you ever testified
This is a c u company that is not in
i Gypsum cause mesothelioma in the
before c u regarding any deposition or court existence, does not transact business mm !intended users7
proceeding regarding c u exhibits-
I and has no employees. So sitting here today | MU MS. JACKSON: Absolutely
A. No.
lit doesn't have (33) a position, on what
Absolutely.
Q. Pages 503 to 508 of Exhibit 7? products that it made 20 some odd years
| m u MR. BERGMAN. And the basis on
: c A. No, 1have not.
m u ago.
that, Counsel?
Page 87
I mm MR. BERGMAN: Counsel, I'm going ! ! U MS JACKSON That it's outside the jtoobjectto mm the speaking objection. And scope of ` ' the notice. It calls for a
ii Q. Okay. I'm going to ask you some ; I understand that procedures in
I medical opinion, lacks :.u foundation. He's
questions m > about Exhibit 7. If you would,
sir, let me ask you, at what (3) date did
i
Page 89
inot going to answer it. | m u MR. BERGMAN: Q. Are you going
Kaiser Gypsum became aware that there
j (u California may be different but that's an to following m u your counsel's instruction
was a disease f4 ) known as mesothelioma? improperspeaking mj objection.
A. I d on't know.
! ro Q. Mr. Hobby, did Kaiser Gypsum's
; on that. sir. ! u u A. Yes.
Q. Did there come a time, did Kaiser !products, joint mi compounds, pose a
| res) q What is Kaiser Gypsum's
Gypsum learn n i in 1965 that there was a potential risk to causing mesothelioma?
position as to whether
disease known as mesothelioma? A. Well, to the extent that that
!<u A. I don't have a personal 1knowledge o f that.
j
Page 91
disease is mm referenced in this
D u Q. What is the position of Kaiser
in ) or notits products, it's
Tooker & Antz
(415) 392-0650
85 to P age 91
BSA
Pickner vs. Owens-Corning Joseph Ross Hobby
11/4/98
XMAX(16/16)
asbestos-containing joint compounds
understand that u ;, we stopped
i :) Q. All right. If you could please look
posed a hazard to human health when used manufacturing asbestos-containing products, back on ::u Exhibit 7 with me for a minute,
as {') intended?
! .25; compound products at our Seattle plant sir, and I'm, I'd like to 221 direct your
A. May have caused.
around 1975.
i attention to Pages 503 and 504,
:=) Q. What do you mean by that, sir? :d A. Well, my understanding is that
Page 93
understanding 23) counsel has a standing objection on that question. If you 2 -;; could
asbestos () potentially can cause health u: MR. BERGMAN: Q. And that was ;peruse those two pages and tell me whether
hazards in people. Okay. So 8) we put ten years after u: Exhibit7 was drafted; is or not 25) there's any reference to, any
warnings on our labels - on our products ithat correct?
;statement that a prolonged and
to notify people of that. That seems ;u : A. That's right,
perfectly proper. Now to me no: it's a
i s ; Q. Can you tell m e --
\
Page 95
giant leap to go from that conclusion to j o : a . I would point out that the
: 1: substantial exposure to asbestos is
what you're m> trying to have me say :second paragraph u does talk
i necessary before <2 ) mesothelioma is
here to you, that, yes, there is
Isomething about respirators and that sort 1contracted?
definitely a causal factor between our
|of thing n> were used.
j '3: A. Maybe you can help me if you
product and a n> specific disease. I'm (8) Q. Yeah. When did Kaiser Gypsum ,know if there is (4) such a mention.
not in a position to sit here and u<u
|begin to warn (9) users of its product to use ! 3) Q. Okay. If you could please look on
answer that affirmative.
j respirators?
the Page 6) 504?
< > Q. Just so I understand your
j tio> A. Well, the document I have, I i ' A. Okay.
testimony and then i s i we'll move on, you ithink you (n ) provided for me this
I :=: MS. JACKSON: I'm just going to
are notin a position to say today (l?)
!afternoon, was around 1972 I believe.
| object the 9) document speaks for itself.
whether or not asbestos-containing joint
| i 2 ; | don't know if that's the first such. !It's not a document that was (10 ) created by
compound ;is; manufactured by Kaiser
j 12) MS. JACKSON: I would really would anyone from Kaiser Gypsum. It's not
Gypsum causes mesothelioma?
i ask counsel 1141 if you'd show him the
authored by id a Kaiser Gypsum
:: : MS. JACKSON: Asked and
j documents or give us the numbers to (i=) ! employee. The document speaks for itself.
answered.
j refer to.
! 12) He can read from it but this prolongs
i d MR. BERGMAN: Q. You can
:15} MR. BERGMAN: Sure, that's fine.
the testimony here.
answer the question.
'Sometimes I <i?> don't know what it is.
| :id MR. BERGMAN: Q. Sir, are you
2 1 : A. Yes.
18) Q. I'm handing you Exhibits, Mr. law areofany U4> knowledge regarding the
2:1 Q. You are not in a position to tell us Hobby, and id that's, for counsel's record, 1Pickner case?
that tea) today?
No. 302.
| :15) A. Yes, I have knowledge of the
A. That's right.
2 0 ) A. Yes sir.
Pickner case.
;:=) Q. Thank you. Sir, looking at, can
| in Q. I direct your attention to exhibit, is i .i5i Q. Are you aware of when Mr.
you tell me,
;that 7?
Pickner was (H i diagnosed with
Page 92
1:22) I 23)
A. No, 13. MS. JACKSON: T h e -
| mesothelioma? | id A. No, in fact I didn't know that
;:> sir, what actions Kaiser Gypsum took in j 24) MR. BERGMAN: The one that you're Mr. Pickner had u d mesothelioma.
response to Exhibit (2 ) 7? <:) MS. JACKSON: Again Exhibit7 with the ;4> additional pages that we've just seen
|holding, 25) sir. I------------------------------- -------------------------------
Page 94
| i d Q. Are you aware, sir, that Mr. 'Picknerwas <211 diagnosed with mesothelioma approximately 32 years after
over the break?
I d MS. JACKSON: This is 7.
i .2 2 ) this Exhibit7 was authored?
5) MR. BERGMAN: You have a standing ! >2: THE WITNESS: 13?
I id A. I just answered that I didn't
objection on 6) that, Counsel.
| d MR. BERGMAN: Q. Yeah, 13.
know he had 24) mesothelioma.
r . THE WITNESS: Well, judging from the ;Directing your (4) attention to Exhibit I3, sir, 525) Q. Okay. Moving along, handing
cover i 8) letter the attachments were
Iin the middle of that document 5) there's a, you Exhibit8,1
forwarded by a Mr. Flicker to a i so number of Iit appears to be a warning; is that correct,
named individuals.
; sir?
j
Page 96
c :> MR. BERGMAN: Q. Who was Mr. ! i: A. Yes. It's describd as a caution | :i' ask you whether you can identify that for
Flicker?
actually.
| me, please, sir?
c o A. My review of the
; ;7) Q. Caution. Okay. Is that the caution j ::: MS. JACKSON: This is another of the
organizational chart o o indicates that he |that ic) Kaiser Gypsum placed on its
j documents (3) with the standing objection to
had some role in the safety department. :products, its (9) asbestos-containing joint ;the completeness issue.
cs! Q. After the attachments to
1products that you previously id testified ! 4; THE WITNESS: Can I identify it?
document 502 were U4) circulated to
: tO?
;
MR. BERGMAN: Q. Yes.
individuals in the company what action was d h : A. This memo would indicate that : ;d A. In what respect?
o : taken by Kaiser Gypsum in response to it is.
j
Q. Do you know what it is?
that information, the us; information
j :i2) Q. Okay. And if you could please : d A. You just gave it to me. No, I
contained within that document?
read to me the :i3> exact admonition that
don't know what 3 it is.
c o A. I don't know whether there
,was provided?
! .id Q. Okay,
was or was not any us) further action
| (i <! a . "Caution: Contains asbestos j- ii! A. It's a memo,
taken.
i fibers.
j in ' Q. Okay. And is this again another
Or! Q. Can you tell me whether or not | i5 ) Avoid creating dust. Breathing
'memo from Mr. 13) Flicker?
Kaiser Gypsum 20) stopped manufacturing a s b e s to s d u s t l<=' > m a y c a u s e serious
j M S . JACKSON: The document
asbestos-containing joint compounds 211
bodily harm."
speaks for itself.
after Exhibit 7 was circulated throughout the ; I ': Q. You would a agree with me, sir,
id a . Yes, it would appear to be.
company?
;then, that as: nothing in this admonition
| : : d MR. BERGMAN: Q. And Mr.
0 2 ) MS. JACKSON: Assumes facts notin i says anything about respirators?
Flicker, sir, was an ;i7 i individual at Kaiser
evidence.
i (19) A. No. That's right, I agree with
iwho had some responsibility over :id
u ii THE WITNESS: No, I- w e ll, I
you.
i safety?
Page 91
toPage 96
(415) 392-0650
Tooker & Antz
Pickner vs. Owens-Coming Joseph Ross Hobby
11/4/98
XMAX(IT'U)
A. i understand that to be the
response to Exhibit 8 regarding products
=i A. Well, I've seen a number of
case.
11 i manufactured by Kaiser Gypsum?
docum ents com ing m ostly from the
:
Q. And Mr. Franklin, am I correct,
c > A. No, Id o not.
Safety Department. And my
sir, was the :3i> vice president of
| i !<>) MS. JACKSON: Assumes facts not. in 'understanding o f - the w ay the Safety
manufacturing?
| evidence.
Departm ent w orked is it dealt with
A. Oh, I'd have to go back to the, j (in MR. BERGMAN: Q. D oyouknow employee issues, not end user issues.
and cross u??; reference the organization jwhether or not " v i Kaiser Gypsum
Q. Uh-huh.
charts that -
continued to manufacture
d ' A. So com ing from the safety
:: v Q. Okay. I'll hand you my copy.
asbestos-containing cm joint compounds personnel, various m > docum ents that
: r > ^A. Okay.
j after Exhibit 8 was authored7
; you've given me and that I have seen
Page 97
cm A. Yeah, to the best o f my ' knowledge they did.
have -') requirements that employees use respirators. So I deduct cm from
MS. JACKSON: I'll just make an
j :3 i! Q. And did Kaiser Gypsum ever
that that there was an awareness by
objection in o that this document that
|provide a warning (3:; suggesting that users Kaiser to a d ;> potential hazard at least
you've handed him, Plaintiffs 0240 cm is
Iof Kaiser Gypsum products wear a cm
of asbestos, raw asbestos
dated 1970 and the document you're
j respirator approved by the U.S. Bureau of
exposure. Like I said before, the
inquiring on is 1966. m i It would appear not j Mines?
1asbestos, the term > "asbestos" has
to relate.
j c m A. I can't answer the word "ever." ' been around a long time.
v THE WITNESS: Okay. I see a Mr P.J I cm Q. Let me rephrase the question
\:3`M Q. So would it be fair to say, sir,
Franklin.
!then for you,
' that at least c : i a s of 1969 Kaiser Gypsum
' MR . BERGMAN: Q. Okay. If you would look (1 with me, sir, and if you could ,
Page 99
iwas aware that its employees
working
!around asbestos faced a potential health
read for me the first full :`m paragraph of
j( i) sir. Are you aware of Kaiser Gypsum
hazard7
Exhibit 8.
ever providing any o warnings to users of j ::::m A. Well, this is dated 1972 if
'to; MS. JACKSON: The document
jits products that they should wear a (?)
you're making c ' reference to this.
speaks for itself. : :> MR. BERGMAN: Could you read that for me, sir?
A. "Recent studies by medical
j'respirator approved by the United States
Bureau of Mines? j )) A. No, I'm not. j o Q. Let me hand you Exhibit 9, sir. Sir,
I c rM Q. j Exhibit 9.
!
I'm sorry, sir, I was referring to Page 101
authorities (13) tend to show some
I'd like di to direct your attention on Exhibit 9 1 i Upper right.
possible connection between (n>
to the bottom of the o page regarding
I 3) MS. JACKSON Let's correct the date
inhalation of asbestos dust and cancer. safety indicating that employees should wear !at the ::m top of the bulletin. It's 6/20/T2
Be c m certain that all persons who work c ; respirators when handling and weighing which cancels an earlier n : document. At
in the (1*5: vicinity of asbestos are
and batching o asbestos. Do you know
the top. You've got the wrong date c-
wearing a proper c ?) respirator
whether or not employees of Kaiser noi
1highlighted.
approved lay the U.S. Bureau of cvi
Gypsum did wear respirators while handling, "') MR. BERGMAN: Q. I'm sorry, sir,
Mines for asbestos dust."
weighing and (in batching asbestos?
Could you ("- please turn to Page 218 of
: vi Q. Do you know what the purpose of (!.: i A. I have no personal knowledge. Exhibit 9?
the Exhibit 8 (33) was, who it was intended to I wasn't there.
I mm A. I'm sorry, I d id n 't hear you,
go to? 3 :: A. Well, it would indicate that it
in ) Q. Can you tell me whether or not, do you know (m i one way or the other
; ') Q. Never mind. Sir, I'm handing you 1what has c u been marked as Exhibit 10
was to go to vm safety supervisors.
whether Kaiser Gypsum required its (i 6:
, : 1 I'm sorry, Counsel, it's 333.
(33! Q . And do you know whether or not employees to wear respirators when
i : : : i MS JACKSON: Thank you.
precautions
were taken in response to handling asbestos?
. i ' . s MR. BERGMAN: Q. Did Kaiser
Exhibit 87
n il A. Weil, I can assume that if this ,Gypsum at some m point become av/are
A. I have no direct knowledge
sort of a in i safety warning was
:that the federal government was
whether of not
disseminated that they would have been considering banning asbestos from
Page 98
n) required to wear them. ':.') Q. Why would Kaiser Gypsum
!asbestos-containing >'m building products"-' v i A. 1do n 't know. At some point in
:i! precautions were taken in response to suggest that its coi employees wear
` time?
Exhibit 8.
respirators and not suggest that its ;m )
v -v i Q. Mm-hmm
c : Q. Do you know whether or not
customers wear respirators?
! MM A. 1don't know.
Exhibit 8 pertains :? to asbestos risks
33! MS. JACKSON: Lacks foundation, le v i MS. JACKSON: Overbroad.
posed by or presented to users of Kaiser
assumes facts (3.D notin evidence,
i T H E WITNESS: When they became
Gypsum products or employees of
j -m i THE WITNESS: Well, first of all, I can ;aware that the 3.:: government was
Kaiser Gypsum?
i ; vi probably answer that in several ways, `considering doing something. If there's a
f 1 MS JACKSON: Assumes facts not in but my first thought,
i m i document that says that, you know. I
evidence. MR. BERGMAN Q. Let me restate !
Page 100
' . m i MR. BERGMAN. Q. Maybe if you ,couldlookat :?c; the document I just
the question c : Does Exhibit 8 draw any j ) I'd be supposing, of course, my first
handed you, Exhibit 10 for a second.
distinction between users of Kaiser c :
thought on that is (3i that the hazard of
Gypsum products and employees of Kaiser handling, weighing and batching raw cn
|
Page 102
Gypsum?
j asbestos was known to Kaiser Gypsum.
A. Is there a sentence in there?
MS JACKSON The document speaks \What was not known was ; : 1 the hazard of W hy d o n 't you '3 help me.
j for itself.
j asbestos in an end product that may be used ` :?) Q. If you could look at the third
THE WITNESS: No, it doesn't draw a by (Vi a user.
I paragraph.
: c distinction.
j (r>) MR. BERGMAN: Q. And what is the . n A. Third paragraph. Well, it talks
MR. BERGMAN: Q. D oyouknow basis for
rnhtataubnoduetrsiftacnmdinags,bseisr?toYsoufiber is banned. I
what action, if a?) any, was taken in
! indicated that --
guess it doesn't say by the cu federal
Tooker & Antz
(415) 392-0650
Page 96 fo Page 102
asA
Pickrier vs, Owens-Coming Joseph Ross Hobby
11/4/98
XMAX( 18(18)
government.
was generated warnings were not being put on there. We know - thatthat'sthe
Q. Mm-hmm. So it would be correct provided?
case.
to say that in i e; November of 1971 Kaiser i / : MS. JACKSON: Lack of foundation, j (=> Q. But sitting here today you can't
'Gypsum was aware that there was a (5
speculation, ce; assumes facts not in
say whether warnings started to be put
potential that asbestos fiber might be banned !evidence.
on in January in 72 or September of
from its 13) products?
; /; THE WITNESS: Yes.
1972?
n . MS. JACKSON: The document
MR. BERGMAN: Q. You want to
(Si A. No, (can't.
speaks for itself.
look at your a i! answerto 19, to
| ;S! MS. JACKSON: Asked and
.iz ; THE WITNESS: That's what it says. IInterrogatory No. 6, and you indicate (12)
i answered.
:::) MR. BERGMAN: Q. And I'm also Ibeginning in 1972 Kaiser affixed caution
j (10 ) MR. BERGMAN: Q. If I could direct
correct, sir, ci<n that as of in November of |labels. When in <13) 1972 did Kaiser begin iyour (in attention, sir, to the last full
1971 that Kaiser Gypsum at that (ibj point affixing cautionary labels on its (14)
|paragraph on the first page 12; of Exhibit
was not providing any warnings to its
products?
customers C6) concerning asbestos content us) A. I don't know.
13, it refers to a federal regulation regarding
j ( 13) labeling. Could you read that
of its products?
(16) Q. Any time within January and
paragraph, sir?
it; A. I don't know when warnings | December of 1972?
(14) MS. JACKSON: The paragraph
were first provided U8) to its customers. j (13) A. Yes. I'm not sure this Is an
beginning with the (i5> reason?
Q. Could you please look for me, j exact science.
(isj MR. BERGMAN: Q. Correct.
sir, on Exhibit 201 2, Page 5, your
! (18) Q. If you could look with me on
(17) A. "The reason for using the
interrogatory answers?
Exhibit 13.
foregoing (18) label only for
A. Exhibit 2?
(18) A. Yes.
asbestos-containing products <i*> is
::: Q. Yeah. That's your interrogatory 20) Q. We've previously discussed this ;that they are the only gypsum products
answers.
document, (in First of all, do you know who | (20) which federal laws at this time
A. Okay. What page?
Mr. Toomey was?
!require to be ;2i) marked. The regulation
:; 2 ; Q. Page 5.
(22; A. I don't know Mr. Toomey, or I Iwent into effect July ( 22) 7th, 1972.
A. Okay. Now where?
understand he (23) may have been an Therefore, every effort should be (23)
Page 103
attorney. But I've been advised by counsel (24) that that may be the case
i made to immediately comply with it. The j (24) label should be applied by stencil,
:1' Q. If you could look at your response t o il) Interrogatory No. 6.
but I have not personally seen his (25) name on any organization chart.
I stamps, (25) stickers or whatever may be the most
MR. PETTY: Matt? MR. BERGMAN: Yes, sir.
Page 105
|
Page 107
MR. PETTY: This is Ken Petty. I don't (1 > MS. STEELE: What exhibit number are j (i) convenient means for prompt
mean is> to unduly interrupt you but may I you (2 ) looking at?
| compliance."
have an objection, may we (7) have an
(3) MR. BERGMAN: It's 302.
1:2 ) Q. Would it be fair to say, sir, after
objection to all of your warnings questions
(4) MS. STEELE: What page?
reading (3) that paragraph that in
simply si because of the lack of relevance (5) MR. BERGMAN: First page.
September of 1972 Kaiser Gypsum was
and not reasonably isj calculated to lead to (S) MS. JACKSON: To the extent there's a (4 ) not in current compliance with the
any admissible evidence in this : ioi
(3) privilege issue if he is an attorney I'd like federal regulation?
particular case. I think you're well familiar with to preserve (3) that objection.
(5) MS. JACKSON: I think that's
Mr. ;u ) Pickner's testimony regarding his (5) MR. BERGMAN: Absolutely, Counsel. speculation and (6) lacks foundation.
practice in terms of (i2> reading warnings or | col Q. Do you know, sir, whether -- well, (7) THE WITNESS: No, I wouldn't say
instructions on the product packaging of : ii: other trades.
MR. BERGMAN: You certainly do is
j!if you (id could just - have you had a
chance to look over Exhibit 13 (12 > prior to ; my questioning of you?
!that that was (8) fair to say that. (8) MR. BERGMAN: Q. You couldn't say one way or :i0) the other.
have a 15) standing objection on that
(13) A. I looked over it, yes.
I ( i d A. I could not say one way or the
subject matter, Ken.
(14) MS. JACKSON: Insofar as we didn't other.
MR. PETTY: Thank you.
have Page 2 usi until the bf-eak.
( i2 ! Q. Okay. Why didn't Kaiser
:*: THE WITNESS: I didn't get your
j do) MR. BERGMAN: 1know,
Gypsum provide more (13 , specific
question.
hi?) MS. JACKSON: Okay.
warnings than the ones set forth on the first
:/ MR. BERGMAN: Q. Okay. We
| (isj MR. BERGMAN: Q. Okay. Do you 1page (14) of Exhibit 13?
were discussing a*) whether or not at the know, sir, (id whether warnings were
u si MS. JACKSON: Calls for
time Exhibit 10 was generated, the 201
i applied to Kaiser Gypsum asbestos ;2Co
Ispeculation, assumes (i6; facts notin
memorandum, Kaiser Gypsum was providing products prior to the promulgation of Exhibit Ievidence.
warnings to its i" ) customers concerning j 13?
( id A. I don't know.
hazards of asbestos. And I'd like you 2 2 ; if ! 2 1 : A. No, I don't know for sure.
| (is) Q, Was there a reason that Kaiser
you would, sir, to look at Page 5 of your 23)
Q. What is your best
` Gypsum did not *is> specifically provide
interrogatories, and tell me whether or not understanding?
|warnings regarding the sanding of its >
that refreshes (24) your recollection on
5 23) a . I don't know. What I can tell !product?
whether warnings were being provided in
iyou is I have, (24 , i*ve seen this
j<2 D A. I don't know.
November of 1971?
|document, it says September 28th, 1972,1 j (2 2 ) Q. Was there a reason that Kaiser
Page 104
l ;25 > have no way of knowing this was the j Gypsum did not 221 provide specific
first in a series of*I
[warnings regarding the mixing of its dry z-n
A. Well, this says beginning in 1972. If there's 2 . a distinction between
j
Page 106
!joint compounds? (25) A. I don't know.
November of 71 and the beginning of (3; j (i) documents or not. And I think that in
1972 then I'll stand corrected/
!response to our (2) Interrogatory No. 6 |
ii. Q. Okay. So would it be fair to state, Ithat's why we said as we did that (3)
j(i)
Page 108 Q. Was there a reason why Kaiser
sir, that (5! at least at the time that Exhibit 10 Isometime in 1972 there were warnings i Gypsum did not (2) specifically warn the
Page 102 to Page 108
(415) 392-0650
Tooker & Antz
BSA
Pickner vs. Owens-Coming Joseph Ross Hobby
11/4/98
XMAX( 20/20)
you could
take a minute to peruse or as ;
A. I'm not aware of any. By the : 16 that refer or relate to any - tests of
long as you want really to
peruse Exhibit same token, I ;2:) mean one way or the Kaiser Gypsum products for the benefit of
16 and I'll ask you some general questions other. 1don't know whether there was
;end >2 4) users?
Page 114
! i-3> any testing done. ] t24) Q. You don't know, okay. And are
; (25) A. I think I answered that. The |answer is no.
:i! regarding it. MS. JACKSON: Take as much time
you aware of :2 Si Kaiser Gypsum being i provided with any testing of joint
Page 118
as you need to >3) read it. MR. BERGMAN: Yeah, please do.
Page 116
| ( i; MR. BERGMAN: Okay. I think I'm almost done. <21 Why don't we take a
And, of :? course, counsel has a standing ; ;i) compounds in general regarding levels of Ibreak.
objection.
|airborne asbestos 12: fibers?
| (3) THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the
:6) Q. And if it's helpful, Mr. Hobby, I'm j (3) MS. JACKSON: Could you restate
record at 2:37 p.m.
going to : ; be directing questioning --
iyour question, (4) please?
(4) (Brief recess).
-.3) A. Yeah, I mean this is a lengthy | () MR. BERGMAN: Q. Absolutely. You (5) THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on the
document, four 9) or five pages it's hard :previously (> testified I believe, Mr. Hobby, record at 2:51 (6) p.m.
for me to focus on what you might (io>
that you are not aware of 17) any tests prior | n> MR. BERGMAN: Q. Mr. Hobby, did
ask me. Why don't you proceed.
to 1974 of Kaiser Gypsum compounds to |there come a cei time when Kaiser Gypsum
(ii) Q. I'm going to be focusing my
(si determine levels of asbestos fibers
'stopped using asbestos in its joint (9;
questioning U2) basically on the first and
posed by the users of (?) Kaiser Gypsum compounds?
second page and then Page 499 if <13 > that's helpful to you.
products. My question to you is are you aware <ioj of Kaiser Gypsum receiving any
jI (io) do
A. Yes. Q. And when was that?
U4> A. Please ask your question and information regarding tests :id performed I (i2) A. Well, in the Seattle operations
if I have to take (i= ) more time I will.
on other manufacturers' joint compounds
it was around (in 1975.
:i6> Q. Fine. Please do that. First of all, I regarding ( i: i airborne asbestos levels prior (14) Q. How about company wide, was
direct (H) your attention to the upper
to 1974?
|there a time in (is> which asbestos was
right-hand corner of Exhibit 16. (is ; It indicates that the document is confidential. Do you know (19) why Exhibit 16 would have
(is) MS. JACKSON: If you know. (1 4 ) THE WITNESS: I don't know. It's a long (I?) question but from what I gathered
completely phased out of joint compounds
j d o ) that were manufactured and sold by i Kaiser Gypsum?
been confidential?
from it I have no (is knowledge of any
j( ii) A. I understood it was about the
(-0! A. No, and in fact I don't know
testing that was going on regarding end in ) ;same time in the tie) re s to fth e
that that was a, (-D 1can't tell from that users.
company as well, and certainly the
that it was an original part of that <20
(12) MR. BERGMAN: Q. Just so I can company u9) basically was out of
document. It may not, it may have been understand (iso your testimony then, so far business by 1978.
added later.
as you know the first testing (201 that was | (2 0 ) MR. BERGMAN: Those are all the
oi' j Q. Are you aware of any testing of performed for the benefit or regarding end 'questions! (2 i> have at this time. Thank
Kaiser Gypsum (24) joint compounds prior users (2 D was in 1974?
' you.
to 1974 to determine the levels of csi
2 2 ) MS. JACKSON: Assumes facts notin <2 2 ) MS. JACKSON: Any other
airborne asbestos from the use of said
evidence.
questions?
products?
23) MR. BERGMAN: Q. The first
(23) THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the
Page 115
11) A. Any testing of joint compounds? 2) Q. Correct.
testing that (24) you're aware of? 25) MS. JACKSON: Overbroad.
j
Page 117
| (i; THE WITNESS: Does this document
end of the (24) deposition of Joseph Hobby,
j The total number of videotapes <2 5 ) used is j 2. All the original videotapes will be held at
Page 119
n> A. For airborne?
jsaytherew as (2 ) a testin 1974?
(i: Tooker& Antz, 818 Mission Street, 5th
(4) Q. Correct.
j (3) MR. BERGMAN: Q. If you could turn Floor, San Francisco, 2) California 94103.
(?) A. I don't, I don't, I wouldn't be
jwithm e, (4; please, to Pag 499.
Telephone area code 415-392-0650. Going
aware of any test that you would do | (5) A. Yes.
(3) off the record. The time is 2:52 p.m.
on a compound to test for airborne.
|
Q. Did Union Carbide conduct tests (4) MR. PETTY: Before we go off the
<") Q. Okay, okay. Are you aware of, are |of Kaiser (1 ) Gypsum joint compounds?
stenographic (?) record can we confirm the
you aware (?) of any testing that Kaiser
1(2, MS. JACKSON: The document speaks witness is going to reserve (6) signature?
Gypsum conducted prior to 1974 to (9)
;for itself.
(i) MR. BERGMAN: Absolutely.
determine whether the use of its joint
j : 9; THE WITNESS: This document says 81 (Whereupon, the deposition was
compounds exceeded <io> the threshold
;that it's the 1ioj result of tests with KAGC
i concluded at (3) 2:52 p.m.).
i d c :.
limit value of airborne asbestos?
'compounds by Union Carbide.
; :13)
A. Not the use of it. I am aware of ; : i i ; MR. BERGMAN: Q. A ndareyou
some testing i ) that was done in our plants by an industrial hygienist to u u determine exposure, asbestos exposure. ; ihj Q. Of your, of Kaiser Gypsum's
aware of any 112) tests prior to 1974? . 12; A. This doesn't -(14) MS. JACKSON: Objection, ' overbroad.
1( 17) ! (29)
SIGNATURE OF WITNESS .) (iso (2;< :2i) (2D ::i:
employees?
1 (id THE WITNESS: This doesn't say
:"-?) A. Yes.
when the tests u *: may or may not have
;i-j; Q. Okay. Okay. But your testimony, j occurred.
though, is d ' i that you're not, Kaiser
| ; 11) MR. BLACK: What was the exhibit
Gypsum is not aware -- well, prior <ie> to
number of <is ) that document?
1974 did Kaiser Gypsum conduct any testing (19) MR. BERGMAN: I'm sorry, it's 495.
of its .i 9j products to determine the
( 2 0 MR. BLACK: Thank you.
exposure level of its customers to 1201
(2 i) MR. BERGMAN: Q. Are you aware,
asbestos fibers?
sir, of any 2 2 ) documents other than Exhibit
Page 113 to Page 119
(415) 392-0650
Tooker & Antz