Document NGvDMxJ37qBnYx9gZpD3k0LoR
4
FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
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3 SOUTHERN DIVISION
4
5 CIVIL ACTION NO.: CV-01-C-1407-S
6
7 ANTONIA TOLBERT, et al.,
8 Plaintiffs,
9 v.
10 MONSANTO COMPANY:
11 PHARMACIA INC.; and
12 SOLUTLA INC.; et al..
13 Defendants.
14 /
15
16 DEPOSITION OF ALAN FAUST
17 The deposition of ALAN FAUST was
18 taken before Karen Kelley, Notary
19 Public, State at Large, on April 23,
20 2003, by the plaintiffs, commencing at
21 10:40 a.m. in the office of Kevin Clark
22 in Birmingham, Alabama, pursuant to the
23 stipulations set forth herein.
1 INDEX
3 EXAMINATION 4 By Mr. Davis
5 6 7 8 EXHIBITS 9 ri`am' iui s "cxuid'u 'i 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23
PAGE 5-59
MARKED 33
4
1 siirULAnONS 2 3 IT IS HEREBY STIPULATED by and 4 between counsel that the deposition of 5 ALAN FAUST be taken on the date and time 6 specified and in the action denominated 7 herein before Karen Kelley, Notary 8 Public, State at Large. 9 IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED that 10 all objections and assignment of 11 grounds, except as to the form of the 12 question, are reserved to the time of 13 trial. 14 IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED that
15 the signature to and reading of the 16 deposition by the witness is waived, the 17 deposition to have the same force and 18 effect as though full compliance is had 19 with all laws and rules of court 20 relating to taking depositions. 01
22 23
2
2 was sworn and testified as follows: 3 THE COURT REPORTER: Usual 4 stipulations? 5 MR. DAVIS: Yes. 6 MR. CLARK: Did you want the 7 opportunity to read and sign your 8 deposition? 9 THE WITNESS: Sure. I mean, I 10 don't know that I have before. 11 MR. CLARK: You don't have to. 12 Generally speaking, I don't. But if you 13 wanted to - some witnesses are peculiar 14 about that 15 THE WITNESS: No, that's fine. 16 EXAMINATION 17 BY MR. DAVIS: 18 Q. Mr. Faust, by whom are you 19 currently employed? 20 A. Solutia Incorporated. 21 Q. And you have been employed by 22 Solutia since Solutia came into 23 existence?
S
1 APPEARANCES 2
3 _____ 4 FOR THE PLAINTIFF:
5 FRANK DAVIS 6 Attorney at Law
7 One Highland Place 8 2151 Highland Avenue 9 Suite 100 10 Birmingham, Alabama 35205 11 12 FOR THE DEFENDANT:
1U*1 V'VTT.V1/T1X11J rV^rluTAIADMV^
14 Attorney at Law 15 The Clark Building 16 400 20th Street North 17 Birmingham, Alabama 35203
18
19 20 21 22 23
1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Who was your employer before
3 that? 4 A Monsanto. 5 Q. When did you first go to work
6 for Monsanto? 7 A June of 91. 8 Q. What is your current position
9 with Solutia? 10 A I am the environmental safety 11 and health lead for the Krummich Plant 12 in Sauget, Illinois, and the Queeny 13 Plantin St. Louis, Missouri. 14 Q. And do you currently have any 15 responsibilities with regard to the 16 Anniston Plant? 17 A No. 18 Q. When is the last time you did 19 any work in connection with the Anniston
20 Flaoi? 21 A October of 99. 22 Q. When was the first -- well, let 23 me restate it.
6
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ADAD21-004693 HARTOLDMON0039093
FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS
1 Have you ever done any work in 2 connection with the Anniston Plant? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. When was the first time that you
5 did any work in connection with the 6 Anniston Plant? 7 A. I think it was 93/94 time 8 frame. Q- O>*. W hp.r w --tv v;n--n rahvcicallu 10 employed at that time? 11 A. With Monsanto, in the 12 engineering group of Monsanto. 13 Q. Where was your office at that 14 time?
15 A. St. Louis. iicu yn< nTntr.uoi woo yum pvoiuuui 17 A. I was a hydrogeologist in the 18 engineering group. 19 Q. Who did you report to? 20 A. Bruce Yare, Y-A-R-R 21 Q. You have an undergraduate degree 22 in geology?
23 A. res.
7
1 area of hydrology? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Can you tell me what that was? 4 A. When I came to Monsanto, I 5 joined the group that was in charge of 6 supporting the plants on ground water 7 investigations, RECRA facility 8 investigations, and all of those had a 9 component o* gsohydrology, ground water 10 flow. So 1 had four or five plants that 11 I was assigned to, Anniston being one,
12 to help them with their annual 13 monitoring and ground water studies. 14 Q. All right. Then what was your 15 first responsibility with regard to i1U. MA_im_uianu.m.: n.neiM.tmVnVdVinViJnfAV1l)t UVIU^I 17 A. Well, various things. Again, it 18 was supporting them on any of their 19 environmental issues, whether it's 20 ground water or surface water. They've 21 had a collection system in place since
22 the -1 think the early 80s for 23 capturing and treating ground water from
10
1 Q. Anri do you have- a master's
2 degree in something? 3 A. MBA of business. 4 Q. And in getting yourgeology 5 degree, did you take some hydrology 6 courses? 7 A. Yes, I did. Qu r\ Anuu ubovut/t utilu,o^c.an --uivaa 9 generally. 10 A. Generally it was an elective 11 part of the program where I took 12 hydrogeology courses at the university. 13 So there was two courses in 14 hydrogeology. 15 Q. When did you graduate? 16 A. In '81 -- I take that back. 17 1980, December of '80. 18 Q. Between 1980 and 1991 describe 19 for me, in general, what sort of 20 experience or additional training you 21 had in hydrology. 22 A. Well, in fluid movement, 23 subsurface fluid movement, I worked for
8
1 the south of the south landfill and 2 north - on the north end of the plant 3 to capture for paraffine and PNP, two 4 contaminants in the ground water. So 5 they had annual reports that they had to 6 submit and compliance reports they had 7 to submit to ADEM on the effectiveness
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9 those reports. 10 Q. Did that have anything to do 11 with PCBs? 12 A. No. 13 Q- Were the wells being tested for 14 PCBs? 15 A. I don't recall. 16 Q. When was the first time you 17 heard anything about PCBs in Anniston? 18 A. That would have been probably 19 late *95, about late 95,1 think. 20 Q. And what did you hear at that 21 time? 22 A. Well, at that time I was in a 23 different group and I didn't have
11
1 City Service Oil and Gas, and then later 2 bought out by Occidental Petroleum. So 3 1 was a petroleum geologist/geophysidst 4 for those two firms, studying oil, fluid 5 movement
6 Q. Groundwater? 7 A. Not ground water perse, but 8 oil, gas. 9 Q. Okay. 10 A. Let me go on. From '89 to 911 11 worked for an environmental consulting 12 firm in St. Louis where I did hydrologic 13 studies for projects in the St. Louis 14 area for that firm. 15 Q. Service water, hydrology of 16 ground water, hydrology or both? 17 A. Both. 18 Q. Prior to the time you went to 19 Monsanto, did you have any -- let me 20 restate that. 21 Prior to the time you went to 22 the Anniston Plant of Monsanto, did you 23 have any experience with Monsanto in the
9
1 responsibilities for - well, let me 2 take that back. It would have been 3 probably 95 is when the west end -- the 4 issues with the west end landfill, the 5 plant was working on that And 1 was 6 still in the group, the technical group. 7 So we met with ADEM and presented a 8 sampling plan for determining the impact 9 of the west end landfill. 10 Q. Okay. Before we get to that 11 maybe it would be a good idea for me to
12 just let you walk me through your career 13 and history at Monsanto, slash, Solutia. 14 A. Okay. 15 Q. Can you do that for me? 16 A. Right. I came in in 91 in the 17 engineering technology group, which had 18 a subset within that was the remediation 19 group. In 951 believe I moved into 20 the remediation project management group 21 where I was assigned --1 think that was 22 late 95 - where I was assigned 23 different projects to keep track of
12
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FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS
1 across the country that Monsanto was
2 involved in on former facilities,
3 landfills and whatnot In 95, early
4 95, is when I would have still been in
5 a technical role and was assigned to 6 work with the plant to come up with this
7 sampling plan for the west end landfill.
8 In late 951 moved into the 9 TvauCdisi TUBti Qgpninnt grnnp nnrf nt jjinf
10 point I no longer had any
11 responsibilities for Anniston. Then in
12 '96, March time frame of 96 when the
13 consent order for the west end landfill 14 remedy was signed, I was asked to take
15 on the Anniston project as the primary
16 project to manage. And we, my family
17 and I, transferred to Anniston in July
18 of 96.
'
19 Q. Still part of remediation --
20 A. Remediation group, right. Sol
21 reported back to St Louis.
22 Q. Now, are you still in that
23 group?
13
1 since I was on the project. Just 2 updates on work that occurred over the 3 last three to six months and work that 4 was going to occur over the next three
5 to six months. 6 Q. Second occasion, when was that? 7 A. It was probab' > -- what is this, 8 20037 I think, again, about that same 9 time in 2002. 10 Q. Same kind of meeting? 11 A. Yeah. 12 Q. Okay. Any other--anything 13 else that you have done in connection 14 with Anniston since 99? 15 A. No. 1XCV. A An1u1 nIl'gnUlitt. Ti*n,f*icahaptr tin iltiAva.r. tr--t 17 1995. 18 A. Okay. 19 Q. 1995, you said there was a 20 consent order concerning the west end 21 landfill? 22 A. In 96. 23 Q. In 96. Okay. I want to --
16
1 A. No. In *991 trsnsfsrrcd to 2 St. Louis and worked in the plant. So I 3 was no longer in that remediation group. 4 I was part of the plant staff doing 5 day-tcwiay compliance oversight. That's 6 where I am currently. 7Oo aU--OQ_U.~SrIC_AI_IlCl_rUiigiUhLOe*LSrLiAnMceU9yUoui 1i n7o7n7, itl.O..Y.V. 9 you been back to Anniston other than on 10 depositions perhaps? 11 A. Depositions. And occasionally 12 in early, you know, 2000, maybe once in 13 2001, just as transition, attended, you 14 know, technical meetings. 15 Q. What kind of technical meetings? 16 A. We have a lot of consultants 17 that work on the project, so once a 18 quarter or thereabouts they will -- 19 Craig Branchfield, I did in die past, 20 get together those different groups and 21 just do updates on status, where we are 22 and what we are going to be working on 23 for the next quarter or two quaiters.
14
1 what is the first thing you heard about 2 the west end landfill? 3 A. That Alabama Power, who at the 4 time owned the landfill -- I think this 5 was in 95, probably summer of 95 -- 6 was doing some grass cutting and normal 7 maintenance on the property around their 8 substation and noticed a black substance 9 on the hills, on the slope of what was 10 the west end landfill. And they tested 11 it and it was PCBs, so they contacted 12 Solutia -- well, Monsanto at the time. 13 And I think at that point we took back 14 ownership of the property and took over 15 ownership operations of whatever the 16 remedy was going to be for that 17 property. 18 Q. What was the status of all of 19 that at the time you first heard about
20 it? 21 A I think the status was they 22 didn't know much more than there was 23 this black substance on the side and
17
1 Q. Okay. I am confused, and 2 sometimes I get confused. You may not 3 be able to help clarify my confusion, 4 but you went to St Louis in 99? 5 A. Right 6 Q. And I thought you didn't have 7 any responsibilities with regard to 8 Anniston after 99?
9 A. No responsibilities other than 10 just if asked to come down and help in 11 the transition between myself and Craig 12 Branchfield, who now manages the 13 project. 14 Q. Okay. How many times has that 15 occurred?
16 A. I think twice. 17 Q. Okay. Let's take the two times. 18 Do you remember when the first one was? 19 A. It would have been probably in 20 the first half of 2001. 21 Q. What do you remember about that? 22 A. Not a great deal, other than 23 just like our normal meetings we've had
15
1 didn't know what the lateral or vertical 2 extent of PCB impact was. 3 Q. Did Monsanto know at the time 4 that you got involved in it in 1995 that 5 it had been an old landfill? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Do you know whether Monsanto 8 knewthat the property had been an old 9 landfill at the time the property was 10 transferred to Alabama Power Company? 11 A. I believe so. 12 Q. Okay. Did you get involved in 13 the investigation with regard to where 14 the PCBs had gone from that landfill? 15 A I think my involvement was 16 coming up with the initial proposal for 17 sampling surface and subsurface and 18 ground water of the actual 19 implementation of that study and 20 evaluating the results. I wasn't at - 21 that's when I switched over into the 22 management group and Anniston was no 23 longer one of my sites that I worked on.
18
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ADAD21-004695 HARTOLDMON0039095
FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS
1 Q. Okay. Let me talk for a few 2 minutes about what information you 3 had - first, you physically went down 4 to Anniston at that time; right?
5 A. In 95? 6 Q. Right 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Was that for a temporary period? 9 A. Oh, no, I was just down for a 10 meeting or so. So it was just a 11 commute. 12 Q. Did you inquire at that time as 13 to what sort of information existed, 14 what kind of testing had been done 15 already?
16 A T don't remember specifically, 17 But anytime we do an investigation, we 18 look at is there any historical
19 information that could help in the 20 investigation going forward. 21 Q. Was there, inplace at the time 22 that you went there, any regular testing TM2 -f IU UltWUVd IJJflt1Ka.O#4U UUUi U1C--wcoat
19 .
1 Monsanto? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And one up gradient, was that on 4 Monsanto property? 5 A. Yeah. I believe it was on that 6 property closest to 202. 7 Q. Did one of those wells show some 8 PCBs for a period of tune? 9 A. I don't recall because, again, 10 at the time that sampling was done and 11 results, I had then transferred out of
12 that group. 13 Q. You don? remember whether one 14 of the wells showed some PCBs and then 15 collapsed or something like that?
16 A. No. 17 Q. The surface water testing, where 18 did you recommend that be done? 19 A. There was - at the same time 20 there was testing being done for the 21 NPDES renewal. I think they did the 22 sampling in conjunction with that and 1W2 tukaw>far nniange aau/l.iauiuaaan^av rvluii/ivhu tuhmamti ilv/w4 furrutmu.
22
1 landfill? 2 A. I am not sure. I dont 3 remember. 4 Q. Did you physically observe the 5 west landfill when you went down there? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. What did you see? 8 A. Just a grassy hill 9 Q. Were you able to see any of the
10 tar-like substance, or had the power 11 company already covered that? 12 A. I think the power company had 13 already covered that. 14 Q. You said you designed the plan i1cJ iUl WOU--ilg1l 16 A. Right. 17 Q. You told me what kind of 18 testing, but I have forgotten. Surface 19 water testing?
20 A. Surface soil sampling, surface 21 water sampling and ground water testing. 22 Q. Describe for me what you 23 recommended.
20
1 the west end landfill that was tested.
2 Q. Were those tests for the water
3 or for the sediment, or what was that?
4 A, I believe it was just the water.
5 Q. Now, you also mentioned surface
6 soil testing. Where was that?
7 A. That was across all of the
8 property there in a grid form. I don?
9 remember the number of samples. 10 Q. What do you mean by ail of the
11 property? 12 A. The landfill and the adjacent
13 property, all of the property that we
14 reacquired from Alabama Power.
15 Q W&s there ssy soil testing done
16 in any areas other than property that
17 you reacquired from Alabama Power?
18 A. I don? believe so.
19 Q. Did you do anything with regard
20 to the landfill after you got it back,
21 the west landfill?
^
22 A. Well, that later became part of
23 the consent order that was filed in
23
1 A. In the testing? 2 Q. Yes. 3 A. Was to put a grid across both 4 the landfill and the adjacent land 5 around the station, around the power 6 station and substation and test the /f suiiokv 9uiu( oa ,,n.-c|1ii a-Msl icat <mke. 8 ground water down gradient of the 9 landfill for PCBs. 10 Q. Start with what you said last, 11 which is the ground water. 12 A, Uh-huh. 13 Q. Where were those wells located 14 generally? 15 A. There were three wells, I 16 believe -- four wells, an up gradient 17 well, which would have been near 202, 18 and then three down gradient wells at 19 the toe of the slope, at the bottom of 20 the slope of the landfill. 21 Q. The three down gradient wells, 22 were they on property that was 23 transferred by the power company back to
21
1 March of 96, was to develop a remedy 2 for controlling those surface results, 3 PCBs, and then designing that and 4 implementing and constructing that 5 remedy. 6 Q. And with regard to the west 1/ lanrlAII) mW hUnVnU tTiTmUeU fUkIV* .. Jv'VtMtMl Hilt a<
8 cap on it? 9 A. Yeah. 10 Q. When was that completed? 11 A. That was completed in -1 think
12 it was completed in 96. 13 Q. Okay. And were you still 14 responsible for it at ihe time it was 15 completed? 16 A. Well, it was that interim where 17 I was no longer, in 95, responsible for 18 it. But then m March of 961 took - 19 in my management position I took over as 20 manager. So from 96 through 991 was 21 responsible for it, yes. 22 Q. When it was completed and -- 23 when the cap in it at least was
24
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ADAD21-004696 HARTOLDMON0039096
FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS
1 completed in 1996, did you put in place
2 a regular sediment sampling program for
3 ditcSes below it?
. -- -
4 A. I believe in the '96 order we
5 were to sample the ditches leading from 6 the west end landfill as well as the 7 south landfill leading it Snow Creek.
8 So there was still an investigation 9 being ongoing. It sxpt&dsd out from
10 that property.
11 Q. Here is what I am really curious 12 about, is whether you know of - let's
13 back up to an even earlier date. Okay.
14 I will try not to be too confusing the
15 way I ask this question. I want to back
16 up to an even earlier date. Were you
17 familiar, in general, with the cleanup
18 that was done of ditches from Bethel
19 Church on down to Snow Creek and part of
20 Snow Creek, some remediation work that
21 was done there in the 1980s before you
22 got there?
23 MS. CLARK: Object to the form.
25
1 taken quarterly, 1 believe it was, to 2 look for PCBs in the sediments. 3 Q. For how long? 4 A. Continual It continues to be a 5 part of the NPDES permit, and I believe 6 the operation and the maintenance of the 7 west end landfill is a 30-year 8 obligation. 9 Q. Now, you have experience in 10 ground water hydrology; right? 11 A. Right. 12 Q. In the 1995/96 time frame when 13 you were doing work on the west end 14 landfill, did you investigate the 15 question of the flood planes along those 1XaU U/taltVffUlkVnOe 1IVUUlUg Iivn CwratliUiVTTi; wivvu 17 MR. CLARK: Object to the form. 18 A. Yes, as it was a part of the 19 consent order that we were working 20 the consent order was to investigate the 21 impacts of the ditches into the flood 22 planes into Snow Creek, and if impacts 23 were found, containinants were found.
28
1 A. Not really. 2 Q. Did you hear at some point in 3 time that there had been some work done? 4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Are you aware of any regular 6 program that was in place to
7 periodically sample the sediment in the u uuvuvo ivauiug uvui uiv luviuauw 1 iaui 9 to Snow Creek, any kind of regular 10 program to sample that sediment that 11 existed between the date of the cleanup 12 in the mid '80s -- or whatever was done 13 in the mid '80s -- and the time that you 14 were concerned with the west end 15 iandnii in the mid 90s? 16 MR. CLARK: Object to the form. 17 A. No. 18 Q. Did you put in effect any 19 regular system of periodically sampling 20 those ditches after the work on the west 21 end landfill? 22 A. The NPDES permit renewal -- I 23 have to remember when that was - had
26
1 design a remedy to control that 2 Q." Okay. Now, prior to 1996 - the 3 consent decree of 1996, prior to that 4 are you aware of any investigation that 5 had been done by Monsanto concerning the 6 flood planes below its plant and leading 7 to Snow Creek? 8 A. I don't think' so. I ftm not 9 aware of -- I dont recall any. 10 Q. Now, when you went to 11 investigate the flood planes after 1996, 12 where did you go to begin that 13 investigation? Were there any flood 14 plane maps or anything like that 15 available? 16 A. Well, we had maps of Snow Creek 17 that would depict the flood plane. Near 18 the plant there were no maps that showed 19 drainage ditches, but we knew--by just 20 walking around you could see where water 21 flowed. So we mapped the location of 22 those ditches and sampled those ditches 23 both in the ditch and lateral, either
29
1 PCB sampling in surface water as part of 2 that sampling. So that renewal happened 3 in, I think it was 97. But at that 4 point there was a formal plan for
5 sampling our surface water discharges 6 from our facility for PCBs. 7 Q. See, what 1 am looking for is 8 really not, say, a single occasion on 9 sampling. What I am wondering is after 10 you did the work on the west end 11 landfill in the mid 90s, did you, as 12 manager of that project, put into place 13 a system for periodically, you know, 14 say, like once every three months or 15 once every six months or once every year
16 sampling the sediment in those ditches 17 leading from the plant to Snow Creek?
18 A. I didn't take anything on
19 personally, but as part of the NPDES 20 permit and as part of the operation and 21 maintenance of that cap that we put on 22 at the west end landfill, there was 23 surface water samples that had to be
27
1 side of the ditch. 2 Q. Okay. Let's start, then, with 3 the Snow Creek, the question of Snow 4 Creek itself. There were in existence 5 flood plane maps for Snow Creek? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And who would have done those 8 originally? 9 A. Not Monsanto. Those are done 10 by, I believe, probably the City of 11 Anniston and FEMA. 12 Q. What is FEMA? 13 A. Federal Emergency Management 14 Agency. 15 Q. So do you know when flood maps 16 basically first started coming into 17 existence? 18 A, No, I dont 19 Q. But in any event, flood maps of 20 Snow Creek were publically available; 21 Monsanto could have gone out and gotten 22 those prior to 1996? 23 A. They are publically available.
30
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1 Q. If someone had wanted to know
2 the area that the ditches would flood in 3 a rain, say, a IGO-yeai flood or a 4 50-year flood or a 25-year flood, how 5 would you have gone about determining 6 that? 7 A Well, the - again, it depends 8 on the magnitude of the storm, but for 9 Snow Creek you could look at the flood 10 plane map and determine the contours, 11 how far it's predicted. Other than 12 that, I would say observation would be 13 -- you know, if you observed actual 14 flooding. But there was no - there was 15 nothing on record to look at to say 16 where it would have flooded other than 17 very close to the ditch at a minimum.
18 Q. So there was no publically 19 available information on the ditches 20 leading to Snow Creek as opposed to Snow 21 Creek7 22 A. Right. 23 O, That would show you where the
31
1 Q. Okay. Here is what I am curious 2 about and the reason I wanted to hand it -* x____ Tf___l.rtk rtStlrtS Asm
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4 is a map on the back and it shows, I 5 think, an area where work was going to 6 be performed between Bethel and Snow 7 Creek. And that's what we have been 8 talking about That's a plan that was 9 entered into in the 1980s for some work 10 to be done in that area, in that 11 tributary -- or that ditch, rather, 12 leading to Snow Creek. I would rather 13 say ditch than tributary. Here is what 14 lam interested in knowing, the PCBs 15 that were found in the 1990s in the area 16 between Bethel Church and Snow Creek, 17 how they got there. And what I am 18 curious about is can you tell us, were 19 those PCBs that just weren't cleaned up 20 in the 1980s or were they new PCBs that 21 had gotten into the creek since the work 22 done in the 1980s? 23 MR ClARK: Object to the form.
34
1 flood planes were? 2 A. Correct. 3 Q. If you wanted to know, one way 4 you could do it, I think you said, was 5 to ask people about it Did y 'all go 6 out and ask people about what areas were 7 flooding?
8 A. No. 9 Q. Okay. Could one have also 10 employed an engineer to look at the 11 elevations and look at the drainage 12 basin and determine where the flooding
13 would likely have occurred? 14 A, An engineering firm could do an 15 estimate, yes,
16 Q. And prior to the consent order 17 in 1996 bad that been done for that 18 area, to your knowledge? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Did you commission such a study 21 after 1996?
O^O rAv. rAur jnreari ii rutif_--_ninrtvei/1uavei iu
23 fulfill the obligations of the order, we
32
1 A Well, the drainage between 2 Bethel and Snow Creex takes waters from 3 areas -- a pretty large area up gradient 4 of Bethel. And later in 96/97 we 5 found PCBs in those ditches up from 6 Bethel. So those could have been 7 scoured and placed over the area that 8 was dug out m '84/'85, whenever it was. 9 Q. Basically in the ditches that 10 lead to the ditch at Bethel, further up 11 in those ditches there were PCBs that 12 had not been cleaned up? 13 A Correct 14 Q. And your conclusion is, it's 15 likely that what occurred is the PCBs
16 moved from further up, down back into 17 this area? 18 A Could very well, yes. 19 Q. I had asked you earlier about 20 whether there was in place -- was 21 already in place when you got there in 22 95/96 a program of systemically -- a 23 program of regularly monitoring the
35
1 had to understand where things might
2 flood, so we did an engineeiing study.
3 Q. After 1996 did y'all, in your
4 investigation, find PCBs in the
5 settlement in the ditches between the
6 area of Bethel Church and Snow Creek?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Were those - here, let's do it
9 this way. I am going to break a
10 tradition for me and I am going to mark
11 an exhibit I am going to show you
12 what's been marked as Exhibit Number 1
13 to your deposition, which appears to be
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15 Jerry Brown to an engineer with the
16 Alabama Department of Environmental
17 Management, and it attaches to it a Snow
18 Creek tributary sediment removal plan.
19 (Plaintiffs Exhibit No. 1 was
20 marked for identification)
21 A. Uh-huh.
22 Q. Have you seen that before?
23 A. No.
33
1 sediment levels, and 1 want to be sure 2 that I wasn't limiting that to the west 3 end landfill. Is it correct that there 4 was no such program with regard to the 5 ditches leaving the south landfill as
6 well? 7 MR CLARK: Object to the form.
8 A. Correct 9 Q. All right. I want to ask you 10 some questions about when you first 11 arrived at Monsanto. What did you say 12 it was, 95 or 96? 13 A In Anniston? 1A C\ Tm eAm/( Y*e in Annjctnn 15 A 96.'TM'...................
16 Q. Okay. When you first got down 17 there in 1996 concerning what the 18 conditions were at the plant with regard 19 to - well, several areas. I think I 20 have already asked you about what you 21 observed at the west end landfill. 22 Maybe you could do that in a little more 23 detail for me. Tell me what you saw
36
A Legalink Company * 1933 Richard Arrington, Jr. Boulevard South * Birmingham, AL 35209 * www.legalink.com
1-800-888-DEPO
ADAD21-004698 HARTOLDMON0039098
FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS
1 when you stood there and looked at it 2 A. When I arrived in early -- well. 3 probably April of 96, at that time I 4 was just commuting, had not transferred. 5 The construction of the west end 6 landfill cover was underway. So there 7 was grading, and some of the materials 8 were being laid for the remedy. So in 9 general it was void of grass and a lot 10 of construction work going on at the 11 west end landfill. 12 Q. When did you first get an 13 opportunity to observe the south 14 landfill?
IS A. I mean, pretty much immediately. 16 I knew where the south landfill was
17 because we did ground water and 18 monitoring previously when I was 19 involved with Anniston on a technical 20 side. So I knew where the west end 21 landfill was.
22 Q. Because you had some monitoring 23 nvlib ulOilg luv ""
37
1 A. Well, I would guess it would 2 have been in 96 when I came in April. 3 men we toured up there because that was 4 part of the consent order, was to 5 investigate the ditches leading from the 6 south landfill. 7 Q. Let me ask you, first standing 8 from the road, before you actually went 9 up on it, standing from the road looking 10 at the south landfill in 1996 could you 11 observe erosion on the landfill at that 12 time? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Once you got up on the landfill, 15 is it your testimony that you did not 16 observe anv erosion of that landfill at 17 that time in 1996? 18 A. No erosion on the landfill 19 Q. Were you able to observe erosion 20 on Monsanto's property on the south side 21 of 202 leading from the landfill? 22 A. Yes.
40
1 A. Along 202, south of the 2 landfill. 3 Q. So maybe I need to back up even 4 earlier. When is the first time you saw 5 the south landfill? 6 A. It would have been probably in 7 the 93 time frame, I think. 8 O. Did vou see the west landfill
9 back then, by the way? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Did you have any monitoring 12 wells at that time around the west 13 landfill? 14 A. No. 1 5 A UAtu nrara ftuiM mAnSfAfinn urn11^
16 at the south landfill and not the west 17 landfill? 18 A. We didn't own the west landfill. 19 Q. Because it was transferred to 20 Alabama Power? 21 A. Right. 22 Q. You told me when -- in 91, you 23 say, you went up there the first time?
38
1 able to see that back in 93? 2 A. No -1 never looked. 1 mean. 3 Q. But you saw it in 96? 4 A. Correct 5 Q. Where did you observe the
6 erosion in 96? 7 A. In the area between the Settler, 8 three, three cells, I think. Three 9 different locations up there. And there 10 is a ravine, a ditch where storm water 11 flowed through between those, and that 12 was eroded out, led to the ditch at 202 13 and then under the culverts of 202. 14 Q. Okay. Were any contaminants of 14 anv kind buried in the area of that
16 erosion? 17 A. No. 18 Q. And how do you know that? 19 A. Well, the landfilling, the 20 location of the landfills were adjacent 21 to it So where the landfill was the 22 ditch was ill between that area* So we 23 had no knowledge of anything being
41
-4
If n34
1 A. I think 93. Somewhere after 2 joining. 3 Q. All right. In 93, or about 93 4 when you went to the south landfill for 5 the first time, did you actually go up 6 on the landfill or stand down there at
8 A. lust at the road. 9 Q. What did you see concerning that 10 landfill from the road when you stood 11 there? 12 A. You could see a mounded area 13 where the landfill was and then, you 14 know, growth around it and growing up. 15 You could see the wells that we 16 recovered from, but not a whole lot more 17 than that. 18 Q. Okay. Were you able to observe 19 erosion of that landfill from the road 20 in 1993? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Okay. When is next time you saw 23 it?
39
1 buried there. 2 Q. Are there complete records of 3 where things are buned up on the south 4 side? 5 A. I think the records are maps and 6 knowledge of and topography in that 7 area. 8 Q. How confident are you that the 9 maps are complete with regard to the 10 area that the PCBs were buried on that 11 site? 12 A. Very confident 13 Q. Were there some old mines on 14 that side of the road? 15 A. Pardon me? 16 Q. Some old mines on that side of 17 the road? 18 A. 1 don't know. 19 Q. Were PCBs put in some old mines 20 on that side of the road? 21 A. I am not aware of that 22 Q. At the time that you arrived in 23 the mid 90s -- let's just say, 93,
42
A r jKrnlink Cnmnunv * 1W3 Richard Arnnirton. .1r. Boulevard Sotb * Binninsbani, AL 35209 * www.legalinlcconi
1-800-888-DEPO
ADAD21-004699 HARTOLDMON0039099
FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS
1 *96; either one is okay with me - with 2 regard to the south landfill - well, 3 lei me withdraw ihat question.
4 Did you have some 5 responsibilities also with regard to the 6 south landfill? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And describe in general what 9 those were. 10 A. Well, for the south landfill it
11 was the monitoring and recovery system 12 we had for ground water that had been in 13 operation. Again, I am not sure of the
14 exact start date, but somewhere in the 15 '80s.
16 Q. Those were vour first 17 responsibilities? "
18 A. Right . 19 Q. And then sometime later did you 20 have some additional responsibilities? 21 A. In '961 became the manager of 22 all of the Anniston work, and the
23 consent order was the south landfill
43
1 that only the water that fell on that 2 surface would drain off and could 3 significantly reduce tbs srcsicn 4 capabilities. 5 Q. And if any PCBs had migrated 6 back to the surface, it would help not 7 to have as many of them flow off the
8 landfill? 9 A Well, the caps and covers were 10 designed to keep anything from migrating 11 to the surface. 12 Q. When you arrived there, there 13 were no caps and covers? 14 A There were clay caps across 15 those areas. 16 Q. But when you sampled the surface 17 of the landfills when you arrived there, 18 you found PCBs on top of the landfills? 19 A I am not sure - we sampled 20 adjacent to the landfill. I am not sure 21 how much sampling was actually done on 22 the surface of the south landfill I 23 don? recall because we were going to
46
1 property and the ditches leading from it 2 were part of that investigation. 3 Q. And were you responsible for 4 some mediation with regard to the 5 landfill itself, the south landfill? 6 A Yes.
7 Q. Any did that include capping 8 that landfill? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And did it include rerouting the 11 water that came off of the mountain 12 behind the landfill? 13 A Yes. 14 Q. At the time you got there then 15 in the mid 'Qfk was -- what was the
16 situation with regard to water coming 17 off of the mountain and flowing over the 18 landfill? 19 A It just made its way into a 20 ditch down gradient of it and went under
21 202 and down through the ditches east of tuc yiaut tu jnwtr w
23 Q. The portion of the landfill that
44
1 cap that. So it really wasn? 2 important we were going to oo a remeuy 3 for it all anyway. 4 Q. Do you at least remember that 5 you found PCBs around the perimeters of
6 that land? 7 A Yes. 8 Q. Do you have an opinion 9 concerning how they got there? 10 A They would have eroded from 11 somewhere and been deposited across that 12 in a sheet flow during a storm. 13 Q. That would be your conclusion, 14 that that eroded from the landfill? 15 A More than likely. 16 Q. So it would be your conclusion 17 that there were PCBs on the top of the 18 landfill, whether you had actually 19 sampled it or not? 20 MR. CLARK: Object to the form. 21 A Correct 22 Q. If there was a day cap on that 23 landfill how would PCBs get back up on
47
1 had PCBs on it, it's fair to say that 2 water flowed from the mountain over the 3 top of that landfill and then down into 4 the ditch and under 202? 5 A Yes. 6 Q. And one of things that you 7 recommended and did Intel was to reroute 8 that water so it would not flow over the 9 top of that landfill? 10 A Correct 11 Q. And what was the reason for 12 that? 13 A Well, we were about to put in 14 place caps and covers on the landfill 15 and adjacent properties. And the 16 magnitude of the storm water that comes 17 off the mountain, had we not addressed 18 that we would have been out there 19 reinstalling these remedies time and 20 time again. So in the interest of 21 taking that mechanism out of the 22 equation, we captured the water coming 23 off of the mountain, piped it around so
45
1 the surface? Do they migrate through
2 the clay to get there?
3 A Well, it could have been during
4 the operation of the landfill, before
5 the cap. I am not sure historically how
6 they would have got -- when or how they
7 would have gotten there.
8 Q. But in^ny event, your
9 conclusion was that that landfill needed
10 capped?
11 A. Correct. 12 Q. And if you had not thought that
13 it needed a cap, I suppose you wouldn?
14 haVv TvCC!u!uv&dd It? 15 A Correct. 16 Q. The contaminated dirt that you
17 found around the south landfill that had
18 PCBs in it, was any of it hauled off?
19 MR. CLARK: Object to the form.
20 A No.
.
21 Q. Some of your samples for PCBs in
22 the ditches since you have been there
23 have found PCBs; right?
48
A Le&alink Comoanv * 1933 Richard Arrington. Jr. Boulevard South * Birmingham, AL 35209 * www.legalink.com
" 1-800-888-DEPO
ADAD21-004700 HARTOLDMON0039100
FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. Has any of that sediment been 3 hauled off?
4 A. No. 5 Q. Y'all bought out a neighborhood 6 and built a settlement -- well, talk
7 about what you did in particular. Y'all 8 bought out a neighborhood with houses in 9 it? 10 MR. CLARK: Object to the form. 11 A In the area that we were going 12 to be doing construction of these 13 remedies we put together a property 14 purchase program and bought a number of 15 properties, yes. 16 O. Tn that area --
17 A Yes. 18 Q. -- have PCBs been found?
19 A. That area was part of the remedy 20 because of PCBs, yes. 21 Q. Was any of the dirt from that 22 area hauled off? It A M~. ,l.n, T
49
1 basin in, there is a requirement 2 anything over five acres of disturbance 3 you have to have measures in place to 4 control sediment off of any construction 5 project. So that became the sediment6 that became the storm water sediment 7 control for the con-: ruction that we 8 were going to do on the south landfilL 9 Q. This is just a Corps of 10 Engineers requirement? 11 A State of Alabama, I think.
12 Q. A storm water retention 13 requirement like would be on any 14 construction project? 15 A. Correct. 1$ Q. It had no designed function or 17 intention of controlling PCBs?
18 A No. 19 Q. Does it, in your opinion, act in 20 any way to control the PCBs? 21 A. It controls -- it controlled and 22 controls any sediments that are flowing 23 upstream of it*
52
1 Q. Along the banks of Snow Creek is 2 -- exists dirt which has been dredged 3 out of Snow Creek from time to tune? 4 A I believe so. 5 Q. Up until the date of this 6 deposition have y'all hauled any of that 7 dirtoff? 8 A I don't recall that we did.
9 Q. Let's talk a little bit more 10 about what you saw when you got there in 11 the mid '90s when you went to Monsanto. 12 There had been some sumps in operation 13 earlier to catch PCBs in the fluids in 14 water coming down the ditches or some -i k uievuvai ri/ciAu IJ!u.u. .o.w. nuj ouiu|ra 16 operational for that purpose when you 17 got there? 18 MR. CLARK: Object to the form. 19 A No. 20 Q. There had been a limestone pit 21 that was used for acid neutralization, 22 and some people at least say also caught 23 some PCBs. Was that in operation when
50
1 Q. Because it acts as somewhat of a 2 sediment pond? 3 A Correct 4 Q. It wasn't designed for that 5 purpose, but to some extent it has that 6 effect? 7 A Correct 8 O. Was there a settling pond of any 9 kind in place when you got there? 10 A No. 11 Q. And to be sure that I 12 understand, the ditches that lead or 13 well, the ditches that led from the 14 south landfill, was there a sediment 1 < nnnH {q Mtgh any SSdiSISE! mtiling off Of 16 the south landfill when you arrived
17 there in the mid '90s? 18 A No. 19 Q. Do you know whether there had 20 been one earlier? 2/a1/s AyAj. Nmio_u,_c_I_wa_mc_sani 1ioi_ut_iau1w4u=a1i1ir,ewou`f*uLoniceg. oiu 23 to the west landfill, when you arrived
53
1 you got there? 2 A No. 3 Q. In fact, I think there has been 4 some testimony that there might have, at 5 one point in time, been two different 6 limestone pits. Were either one of them vi ;tax upvimiuu> 8 A No. 9 Q. Y'all built a settling pond? 10 MR. CLARK: Object to the form. 11 A. Storm water retention, yeah. 12 Q. So y'all built a storm water 13 retention pond? 14 A Right. 15 Q. Was one of the purposes of the 16 storm water retention pond to control 17 PCBs? 18 A No. 19 Q. What was the purpose of the
20 storm water retention pond? 21 A With all the work we were going 22 to do on the south landfill, which was 23 up gradient of where we put the pond in.
51
1 there in the mid '90s, was there a 2 settling pond to catch any sediment 3 coming off of the west landfill? 4 A No. 5 Q. Was there a settling pond 6 anywhere to catch any sediment coming 7 off of ths sics of the Monsanto Plant? 8 A^No. "
9 Q.When you arrived at that 10 Monsanto Plant in Anniston in the mid 11 1990s, was there in place any system or 12 device to control PCBs that had escaped 13 either of the docks, either the south 14 landfill or the west landfill?
15 A No. 16 Q. It's been about 10 years since 17 you first went out to Monsanto and 18 looked at the west landfill; is that 19 right? 20 MR. CLARK: Object to the form. 21 Q. Was it 93? 22 A Well, let me think. No. Let me 23 clarify the dates. 93 would have been
54
A Lecalink flnmnanv * 1933 Richard ArHngtnn. Jr. Boulevard South * Birmingham. AL 35209 * www.legalink.com
"'
1-800-888-DEPO "
ADAD21-004701 HARTOLDMON0039101
FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS
1 when I was down -- we were doing work 2 with -- 3 Q. Monitoring wells? 4 A. -- monitoring wells. 95 was 5 when Alabama Power noticed -- 6 Q. I'm sorry. I did confuse those 7 dates. So it's been about eight years
8 since you went down to look at the PCBs 9 escaping to the west landfill? 10 A. To investigate PCB impact, yes. 11 Q. How long is it going to be
12 before all of PCBs around the plant are 13 cleaned up and all of the PCBs along 14 Snow Creek are cleaned up? 15 MR. CLARK: Object to the form. 1inC rAv Ta Av<Mau.l4to.niunnl,va.i.1m,aa.u 17 Q. Can you tell me whether itls 18 going to be 10 more years or 20 or 30 or 19 50? 20 MR. CLARK: Object to the form. 21 A I really cant answer.
22 Q. What did y'all do to cap the two 23 landfills?
55
1 Q. So as far as you know, there are 2 additional PCBs still there at that 3 location? 4 MR CLARK: Object to the form. 5 A I don't know. 6 Q. Don't know one way or the other? 7 A I don't know one way or the 8 other. And it's concrete lined at this
9 point 10 * Q. But as far as you know, you 11 haven't been back to test around there 12 to see if there are additional PCBs -- 13 A. No. 14 Q. -- in the area where you didn't 15 have to remove soil to put the flume in? 16 A- Correct 17 Q. And as far as you know, no 18 efforts have been made to go back and do 19 any cleanup work of the PCBs there on 20 the state right-of-way, if they exist 21 there? 22 A Right. I don't know of any
ouuiuuuai wvi&uug t/viug vuv.
58
1 A Tile two landfills were capped
2 using what's called a RECRA subtitle C, 3 1 believe it is, design which is 4 multiple layers of fabrics, impermeable 5 liners, soils, clay and topsoil and 6 seeding. 7 Q. Was the south landfill fenced S off when you got there in the mid *90s? 9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Did you recommend some 11 additional work with regard to fencing? 12 A Not that I am aware of. 13 Q. Now, I am going to test your 14 memory. 15 A Ail right. 16 Q. I have been reading too many 17 depositions, and it seems like I 18 remember in one of the depositions you 19 were giving some testimony about some 20 PCBs you found in the state 21 right-of-ways when you were putting a | 22 flume down. Do you remember anything 23 about that?
56
1 Q. There certainly is not any that 2 has been done at your direction or 3 instruction or request? 4 A Correct 5 Q. 1 don't have anything else. 6 Thank you very much. 7 MR. CLARK: Okay. Thank you. g
9 10 11 12 13 (The deposition concluded at 11:44 a.m.) 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23
59
1 A Well, we tested the ditches 2 along 202 and found PCBs, yes. 3 Q. Was that within the State of 4 Alabama? 5 A Yes. 6 Q. On state property? 7 A Yes.
8 Q. And have you been back since 9 then to clean those PCBs up? 10 A Well, the areas where we put in 11 those flumes, we had to do construction 12 to remove soils. Those soils were 13 removed and put with the south landfill, 14 to be covered with the south landfill. 15 I am not-lam not aware of any other 16 PCBs in right-of-ways that required 17 cleanup. 18 Q. Okay. I thought I remembered 19 from your earlier deposition -- you 20 correct me if I am wron -- that v'all 21 only removed soils as deep as you needed 22 in order to put the flume in? 23 A Correct
57
A i-pgaiiiik Company 1933 Richard Arrington, Jr. Boulevard South * Birmingham, AL 35209 * www.legalink.com
1-800-888-DEPO
ADAD21-004702 HARTOLDMON0039102
FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS
60
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A Legalink Companv * 1433 Richard Arrinutnn. .Ir. Boulevard South * Birmingham. AL 35209 * www.legalink.com
1-800-888-DEPO
ADAD21-004703 HARTOLDMON0039103
FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS
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A Legalink Company * 1933 Richard Arrington, Jr. Boulevard South * Birmingham, AL 35209 * www.legalink.com
1 -800-888-DEPO
ADAD21-004709 HARTOLDMON0039109
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A Legalink Company * 1933 Richard Arrington, Jr. Boulevard South * Birmingham, AL 35209 * www.legalink.com
1-800-888-DEFO
ADAD21-004710 HARTOLDMON0039110