Document NGLBgGeMk5aM46n2Nb85vG1dy

In the Court of Common Pleas Philadelphia County In Re: Paoli Railroad Yard PCB Litigation ) ) Master File Number ) 90-0609-C-6 In the United States District Court For the Eastern District of Pennsylvania In Re: Paoli Railroad Yard PCB Litigation ) Master File Number ) 86-2229 ) Relates to all Actions Volume III July 16,1991 Continuation of the deposition of DR. EMMET KELLY, taken on behalf of Plaintiffs. GORE REPORTING COMPANY Boatmen's Tower, Suite 1175 -100 North Broadway St. Louis, Missouri 63102 (314) 241-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000029961 1 In the Court of Common Pleas 2 Philadelphia County 3 4 I n Re : ) 5 P a o li Railroad Yard ) Master file number 6 PCB Litigation ) 90-0609-C - 6 . 7) 8 9 In the United States District Court 1 0 For the Eastern District of Pennsylvania 11 1 2 In Re: ) Master file number 1 3 Paoli Railroad Yard ) 86-2229, 1 4 PCB Litigation ) Relates to All Actions 15 1 6 VOLUME III 17 1 8 Continuation of the deposition of 1 9 DR. EMMET KELLY, taken on behalf of 2 0 Plaintiffs, at the offices of Brown & James, 2 1 705 Olive Street, in the City of St. Louis, 2 2 State of Missouri, commencing at 10:00 a.m. 2 3 on the 16th day of July, 1991, before 2 4 J. Bryan Jordan, certified shorthand reporter 2 5 and notary public. . GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 5 17 WATER PCB-SD0000029962 1 APPEARANCES: 2 3 FOR THE PLAINTIFFS: 4 Mr. Arnold E. Cohen 5 Klerh, Harrison, Harvey , Branzburg 6 & Ellers 7 1401 Walnut Street 8 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19102 9 1 0 Mr. John F. In n e11i 1 1 Kohn, S a v e 11 , Klein, & Graf, P.C. 1 2 2400 One Reading Center 1 3 1101 Market Street 1 4 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19107 15 1 6 FOR THE DEFENDANT MONSANTO COMPANY: 1 7 Mr . Michael H. M a 1in 1 8 White & Williams 1 9 One Liberty Place, Suite 1800 2 0 1650 Market Street 2 1 Philadelphia , Pennsylvania 19103-7 301 22 23 24 25 GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MIS SOURI 518 WATER PCB-SD0000029963 1 FOR THE DEFENDANT AND THIRD-PARTY DEFENDANT 2 GENERAL ELECTRIC COMPANY: 3 Mr. Stephen M. McManus 4 Liebert, Short & Hirshland 5 31st Floor 6 1901 Market Street 7 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103 8 9 FOR THE DEFENDANT BUDD COMPANY: 1 0 Mr. R . Thomas McLaughlin 1 1 Kelly, McLaughlin & Foster 1 2 1700 Atlantic Building 1 3 260 Broad Street 1 4 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19102 15 1 6 FOR THE DEFENDANT AMTRAK: 17 Ms. Suzanne H. Gross 1 8 Margolis , Edelstein , Scherlis , Sarowitz 1 9 & Kreamer 2 0 The Curtis Center 2 1 Fourth Floor 2 2 Independence Square West 2 3 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19106-3304 24 25 GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 519 WATER PCB-SD0000029964 1 FOR THE DEFENDANT CONSOLIDATED RAIL CORPORATION;: 2 Ms. Colleen F. Coonelly 3 Pepper, Hamilton & Scheetz 4 3000 Two Logan Square 5 18th and Arch Streets 6 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19109 7 8 FOR THE DEFENDANTS SOUTHEASTERN PENNSYLVANIA 9 TRANSPORTATION AUTHORITY AND THE PENN CENTRAL 1 0 CORPORATION: 1 1 Mr. Roger F. Cox 1 2 Blank , Rome, Comisky & McCauley 1 3 1200 Four Penn Center Plaza 1 4 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 520 WATER PCB-SD0000029965 1 INDEX 2 PAGE 3 EXAMINATION BY MR . COHEN 525 4 EXAMINATION BY MR . INNELLI 732 5 6 7 8 EXHIBITS 9 1 0 Kelly Exhibit 2 3 ............................... ............................... 574 1 1 Kelly Exhibit 2 4 ............................... ............................... 589 1 2 Kelly Exhibit 2 5 ............................... ............................... 705 1 3 Kelly Exhibit 2 6 ............................... ............................... 707 1 4 Kelly Exhibit 27 ............................... ............................... 725 1 5 Kelly Exhibit 2 8 ............................... ............................... 728 1 6 Kelly Exhibit 2 9 ............................... ............................... 737 17 18 19 20 21 2 2 Request for all toxicity tests done by 2 3 Monsanto Company ................................................................. 662 24 25 GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 521 WATER PCB-SD0000029966 1 (The deposition of Dr. Emmet Kelly 2 wasresumed on the 16th day of July, 1991, a t 3 10:00 a . m. , a s follows : ) 4 MR. COHEN: Same stipulation , 5 Michael? 6 MR . MA LIN: Yes, same stipulation 7 a s last time. 8 Now, do I understand, Arnold , I 9 didn't hear from you by Thursday afternoon 1 0 about anything that we were supposed to have 1 1 had here that we don't have, so I presume 1 2 that you have everything. 1 3 MR ,. COHEN: Well , I don' t k n o w i f 1 4 that'1 s a good presumpti o n , but it's t r u e , you 1 5 d i d n '1t hear from me. I ' m not going t o try to 1 6 reserve any rights to recall the witness 1 7 based upon any document that I had asked you 1 8 for before and that you had offered to 1 9 produce and it was not produced, but to the 2 0 extent that I had asked you for it and it was 2 1 not produced , I may reserve rights , but I 2 2 don't know what those documents are a t this 2 3 time. I'd like to proceed with Dr. Kelly's 2 4 deposition, picking up, if I can, where we 2 5 left off and trying a s much as possible , GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 522 WATER PCB-SD0000029967 1 Doctor , considering the intervening time, to 2 not duplicate anything that has been 3 previously asked and answered, and I'm sure 4 that your counsel has -- 5 MR. MALIN: Thank you. 6 MR. COHEN: -- your entire 7 transcript memorized, so if I do ask -- 8 THE WITNES S : Would you speak a 9 little louder? 1 0 MR. COHEN: I'm sure Counsel has 1 1 the transcript memorized , so if I do ask 1 2 something that's been previously asked, he'll 1 3 give me the page and line number. 1 4 MR. MALIN : I wouldn't necessarily 1 5 count on that, but -- 16 MR. MCLAUGHLIN: For the record , 1 7 a m I correct that I think in your prior 1 8 deposition, we agreed that an objection by 1 9 one counsel will be considered an objection 2 0 by all? 2 1 MS. COONELLY: All defense 2 2 counsel . 2 3 MR . MALIN : Yes. 2 4 MR . COHEN: Well, I guess that 2 5 depends, now that there are a number o f GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MISSOURI 523 WATER PCB-SD0000029968 1 counterclaims that have been asserted or 2 cross claims, here, that have been asserted. 3 Do you want to have those same objections you 4 made before? I mean, I don't care. 5 MS. COONELLY: Why don't we have 6 that agreement unless someone says otherwise . 7 MR. MCLAUGHLIN : Fine. 8 MR . COX: So stipulated. 9 MS . GRO SS : Fine. 1 0 MR . COHEN : Do we have both 1 1 captions? 1 2 Do you have a Federal Court 1 3 caption? 1 4 MR . MALIN: Ireally d on't think I 1 5 do. I don't have. 1 6 MR. COHEN: If we don' t have one 17 with us, we'll make sure you get one, but 1 8 we're taking this in both the s t a t e court 1 9 actions and the Federal Court act ions. 2 0 MR . MALIN: We can e a s i1y make a 2 1 phone call and get the numbe r for you, so 2 2 that's no big deal. 23 24 25 GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 524 WATER PCB-SD0000029969 1 Whereupon. 2 EMMET KELLY , M . D . , 3 of sound mind, having been previously duly 4 sworn to tell the truth , the whole truth , and 5 nothing but the truth in the case aforesaid, 6 testified upon his oath a s follows , to-wit: 7 EXAMINATION ( Continued) 8 BY MR. COHEN: 9 Q . Doctor , when we were last 1 0 together , we had asked you some questions 1 1 about a number of different analytical tests 1 2 that Monsanto had used over the years. One 1 3 of the issues that came up was gas 1 4 chromatography. Do you recall -- 1 5 A . Yes, sir. 1 6 Q -- discussing that earlier? 1 7 A . Yes, sir. 1 8 Q What was the first time, to 1 9 recollecti on, that Monsanto had the 2 0 analytical tool of gas chromatography 2 1 available to them ? 2 2 A. I can't answer that. I do not 2 3 know. 24 Q. Was it -- it was during your 25 tenure a s Medical Director? . GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 525 WATER PCB-SD0000029970 1 A . Oh , ye s , certainly . 2 Q . So it would have been s o m e t i m e 3 prior to 1 9 7 5 ? 4 A . Yes, s i r . 5 Q Do you recall whether it was prior 6 to 1970? 7 A . Well, there were additions t o the 8 simple gas chromatography. In other words , 9 I'm not sure when gas chromatography was a 1 0 standard analytical tool, but Jensen had some 1 1 adaptations of the gas chromatography. I 1 2 don't know enough about analytical chemistry 1 3 to know what they had, what he had, but 1 4 Monsanto did not have that expertise, 15 instrumentat that time. 1 6 Q. When you say Jensen, who is 17 Jensen? 1 8 A. Jensen and Widmark, theSwedes 1 9 who -- 2 0 Q. Oh, the scientists who had first 2 1 done the studies in Europe . 2 2 A. That's correct. 2 3 MR. MALIN: For the record , Jensen 2 4 and Widmark are the two Swedish scientists 2 5 who discovered theexistence of - certain GORE REPORTING COMPANY ft ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 526 WATER PCB-SD0000029971 1 fluorinated hydrocarbons in bird feathers in 2 approximately 1966 -- we discussed that last 3 time -- using a method of gas chromatography 4 MR . COHEN : Yes. 5 BY MR. COHEN: 6 Q Had you finished your answer, 7 Doctor? 8 A. Yes, I did. 9 Q . Now, do I understand your 1 0 testimony to be that Monsanto did not have 1 1 the analytical tool of gas chromatography 1 2 available to them when Jensen and Widmark 1 3 did ? 1 4 A . But I do not know if it was, i f 1 5 they had gas chromatography but did not have 1 6 an ad aptation of further refinement of the 1 7 tool that Jensen and Widmark had. That ' s 1 8 correc t . 1 9 Q. What was that adaptation called? 2 0 MR. MALIN : I'm going to object to 2 1 the form of the question insofar a s it 2 2 doesn't define gas chromatography and all of 2 3 the other accouterments that accompanied its 2 4 deve1opment, its rather , its rather rapid 2 5 development during that period, - which were GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 527 WATER PCB-SD0000029972 1 very critical . 2 MR. COHEN: I have no idea what 3 that objection means , and certainly , it's 4 already contrary to our stipulation, but you 5 can make whatever objection you want to make 6 for the record . 7 MR. MALIN: I'll object to the 8 form of the question . It's too broad and 9 vague . 10 MR. COHEN: I'm asking the witness 1 1 what adaptation he was referring to. 12 A. I do not know. I a m not a n 1 3 analytical chemist. 1 4 BY MR. COHEN: 1 5 Q. What were you aware of -- in the 1 6 field of analytical chemistry, that is - 1 7 what was available in the way of technique 1 8 during the time period that we're referring 1 9 to, which would be the mid Sixties? 2 0 A. Practically nothing. 2 1 Q. What didyou know Monsanto had 2 2 available to it in its own laboratories from 2 3 the standpoint of analytical technique a t 2 4 that time? 2 5 A. I did not know anything about the GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 528 WATER PCB-SD0000029973 1 details of their analytical expertise. 2 Q. Would it be fair to say, then, 3 whatever reports that the y were providing to 4 you r e g a rding product o r the contents of 5 product or the makeup o f the product was all 6 tempered by your lack o f knowledge of their 7 analytic a 1 technique? 8 MR . MALIN : Excuse me. Object to 9 the form of the questi o n . 1 0 Answer the question. 1 1 A . Please repe a t i t . 1 2 MR. COHEN: I don't know if I can 1 3 Mr. Jordan? 1 4 (The requested portion of the 1 5 record read by the reporter) 1 6 A. Well, I don't understand what you 1 7 mean by what's tempered by. What does that 1 8 mean? 1 9 BY MR. COHEN: 2 0 Q. Well, from your understanding of 2 1 the reports or the information they gave to 2 2 you, youwere unable , in your own mind, to 2 3 know the technique that they used. Is that 2 4 correct? 2 5 A. I did not know the t e chnique they GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MIS S OUR I 529 WATER PCB-SD0000029974 1 used. but I accepted their reports a s valid. 2 Q So the information was inform a t i o n 3 that you a c c e p t e d from another departmen t 4 within your employer ' s organization , and you 5 accepted i t a t a s being a valid report? 6 A . That is correct. 7 Q Did you ever question whether they 8 had the a bi1it y to further analyze the 9 material that was being manufactured, for 1 0 example? 1 1 A. No, I never questioned it. 1 2 Q. Did you ever see reports done by 1 3 the Quality Control Department while you were 1 4 Medical Director, indicating a n analysis of 1 5 the product? 1 6 A. I may have, but I do not recall 17 it . 1 8 Q. And would it be fair to say that 1 9 whatever the report said is what you accepted 2 0 a s being the available information within 2 1 house? 2 2 A. Yes, that ' s correct . 2 3 Q. When did you first hear of the 2 4 technique called gas chromatography? 2 5 A. I haven ' t the slightest idea when GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS S OUR I 530 WATER PCB-SD0000029975 1 I first heard of it. 2 Q More than ten years ago, though? 3 A . More than twenty ye a r s a g o . 4 Q Would it have been d u r i n g the time 5 you were still employed by Mon santo a s 6 Medical Director? 7 A . That is correct , ye s , si r . 8 Q Would it have been in t h e decade 9 between 1960 and 1969? 1 0 A . 19 - 1 1 Q '60 and ' 6 9 . 1 2 A . I cannot answer tha t . I do not 1 3 know when I first heard of it 1 4 Q You have no recolle c t i o n of it? 1 5 A . No , I do not. 1 6 Q When did you learn that Monsanto 1 7 first had the technique available to them? 1 8 A. Which technique , now? 1 9 Q. Gas chromatography. 2 0 MR. MALIN: I object to the form 2 1 of that question. 2 2 Answer the question. 2 3 A. I don't remember . 2 4 BY MR. COHEN: 2 5 Q. Do you recall , sir, an GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 531 WATER PCB-SD0000029976 1 investigation being conducted by a Dr. 2 Horwtiz of the Food and DrugAdministration 3 looking for a chlorinated compound X? 4 A . No, sir. 5 Q . I realize it was quite some time 6 ago. I'm not expecting you to recall 7 everything that happened thirty years ago, 8 but I'm going to try to refresh your 9 recollection if I can. C. J. Eby; do you 1 0 remember that name? 1 1 A . Yes, I do. 1 2 Q. All right , can you tell me who was 1 3 C . J . Eby ? 1 4 A. I believe he was a Monsanto 1 5 employee at one time. He was associated with 1 6 the Washington office. 1 7 Q. And what was his first name? 1 8 A . Chuck, a s far a s I know. 1 9 Q . Chuck? 2 0 A. That ' s correct . 2 1 Q. Was that for Charles , or you don't 2 2 know? 2 3 A. I don't know. It probably was for 2 4 Charles . 2 5 Q. Did you ever meet the man? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 532 WATER PCB-SD0000029977 1 A . Yes, I did. 2 Q What did he do in the Monsanto 3 office in Washington? 4 A . Represented Monsanto ' s interests 5 Q Where? 6 A . With the government. 7 Q. Was he a lobbyist? 8 A. No, he wasn't a lobbyist. I don't 9 know what, what position the Washington 1 0 office had or what he did in it, but he was 1 1 the man who made appointments with the -- for 1 2 me with the Food and Drug Administration, the 1 3 Department of Agriculture, things of that 1 4 sort. 1 5 Q. So he facilitated your ability to 1 6 see government employees? 17 A . That's c o r r e c t . 1 8 0 Did you ever meet with Mr . Eby 1 9 when you went down to W a shington, D. C . ? 2 0 A . Yes. 2 1 Q Did Mr . Eby a 11 e n d these meetings 2 2 with you and government employees? 2 3 A . He may in s om e and he may not. I 2 4 don't know which ones he went with me. 2 5 0 . When he did a 11 e n d these meetings, GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 533 WATER PCB-SD0000029978 1 did it seem clear to you that Mr. Eby had a 2 certain familiarity with the individual in 3 the government? 4 A . Well, not particularly . He knew 5 the office he was in; he made the 6 appointment. 7 Q . But beyond that, you didn't notice 8 anything indicating any particular 9 familiarity between Mr. Eby and the official 1 0 that you went to see? 1 1 MR. MALIN: Object to the form of 1 2 the question. I don' t understand what he 1 3 means by "particular familiarity. " It even 1 4 has some connotations that I thin k may be 1 5 offensive, but that's all right. 1 6 MR. COHEN: That's certainly a 1 7 product of your own mind, then. 1 8 BY MR. COHEN: 1 9 Q. Well, did he indicate that they 2 0 played golf, or -- 2 1 A . No 2 2 Q -- or went out for a drink o r 2 3 anything like that? 2 4 A . None. 2 5 Q . Play cards , anything? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 534 WATER PCB-SD0000029979 1 A. No. He was just a person who 2 arranged a meeting with me with people I 3 wanted to see, and he, he didn't show any 4 undue familiarity or friendship with these 5 people. 6 g What was the office in Washington 7 called at that time? 8 A . The Washingt on office. 9 Q That ' s it? 1 0 A . That ' s it. 1 1 Q How big was it? 1 2 A . Two people a t one time, three or 1 3 four at an other time. 1 4 Q. So they didn't have any production 1 5 facility there, obviously. 1 6 A . 0h , no . 1 7 Q . Was it strictly some 1 8 administrative activity? 1 9 A. No, I think they, this person, 2 0 these people there had something to do with 2 1 seeing what government contracts were going 2 2 to be let. 2 3 Q. For manufacture of product? 2 4 A. Yes, for selling them to this. 2 5 Q. So was it a sales office? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 53 5 WATER PCB-SD0000029980 1 A . Well, it represented Monsanto to 2 the government, so I don't know if they took 3 the orders or referred it to the 4 possibilities of sales to the marketing group 5 in St. Louis. I just don't know that. 6 Q . Were you, in that time period when 7 Monsanto was maintaining this office and Mr . 8 Eby was working there , was Monsanto, to your 9 knowledge, regulated by any government 1 0 agency? 1 1 MR. MALIN: Object to the form of 1 2 that question. 1 3 A . I wouldn't know. 1 4 MR. MALIN: Answer the question. 1 5 A. I don't know. 1 6 BY MR. COHEN: 1 7 Q . Well, if you don't know, just tell 1 8 me you don't know. 1 9 A. I don't know. 2 0 Q. Did any product that you sell have 2 1 to be registered with any agency such a s the 2 2 Food and Drug Administration? 2 3 A. We got approval by the Food and 2 4 Drug Administration on some products . A s far 2 5 as the registration was concerned, we had GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 536 WATER PCB-SD0000029981 1 agricultural products that were registered by 2 the Department of Agriculture . I do not 3 believe that the Food and Drug Department 4 registered products. 5 Q . So you got type approval from them 6 for certain products manufactured in the 7 agricultural division? 8 A . Who is the "them"? 9 Q The Food and Drug Administration 1 0 A . No , the Department o f 1 1 Agriculture -- 1 2 Q Oh, I see. 1 3 A . -- registered the product. 1 4 Q And what type of products were 1 5 they? Do you remember? 1 6 A . Herbicides . 1 7 Q Just herbicid e s ? 1 8 A . We may have had a n insecti c i d e 1 9 registered . We may have had Parathion 2 0 registered 2 1 Q . Did any of those products , to your 2 2 knowledge, contain chlorinated hydrocarbons? 2 3 A. Not that I recall , no, sir. 2 4 Q. And you have no recollection of a n 2 5 investigation of a so-called chlorinated GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 5 37 WATER PCB-SD0000029982 1 compound X ? 2 A . No , s i r . 3 Q Who w a s H 4 A . He was i n 5 of Monsanto. 6 Q D o you know where Mr. Eby i s 7 today? 8 A . I don't have the slightest idea. 9 Q D o you know if he's even al i v e ? 1 0 A . I don't know anything about him. 1 1 Q Wa s he a chap younger than 1 2 yourself , s a m e age , elder, older than 1 3 yourself? 1 4 A . He was considerably younger. 1 5 Q Than you? 1 6 A . Than I , yes. 1 7 Q And Mr. Bergen, do you know if 1 8 he's a 1 i v e ? 1 9 A . I don't know 2 0 Q Do you know his first name? 2 1 A . Howard. 2 2 Q And did you have occasion to work 2 3 with M r . Bergen in any activities while you 2 4 were Medical Director? 2 5 A . Oh , I'm sure I did. - I mean. I - - GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 538 WATER PCB-SD0000029983 1 he had a group of compounds I don't recall 2 which ones they were, but I certainly had 3 contact with him during my term. 4 Q. A group of compounds that he was 5 responsible for marketing? 6 A. Probably, if he were,a t one time 7 if he were the product director, he would be 8 responsible for marketing , research, and 9 development of products in that field. 1 0 Q. He was responsible for all of 1 1 those activities? Marketing, research and 1 2 development? 1 3 A . Yes, sir.. 1 4 Q. Do you know what his title was 1 5 with the company? 1 6 A. Director of, or product director 1 7 of whatever compound it was, whatever group 1 8 it was. It might have been functional 1 9 fluids , it might have been heat transfer 2 0 agents . I don't know what it included. 2 1 Q. You don't recall? 2 2 A . No . 2 3 Q. Do you recall any of the products 2 4 that were within his scope of authority? 2 5 A. Well, I'm not sure. -I mean, he GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 539 WATER PCB-SD0000029984 1 may have had some plasticizers, he may have 2 had, as I said, hydraulic fluids. I don't j 3 know if the electrical fluids came under his 4 domain or not. 5 Q . Well, PCB products were sold in 6 all of those categories that you just 7 mentioned , weren't they? 8 A. Yes . 9 Q. They were sold in plasticizers , 1 0 sold in hydraulic fluids, and they were also 1 1 sold in electrical fluids? 1 2 A. Yes I do not know if the 1 3 electrical fluids were under him. I do not 1 4 know that. 1 5 Q. Do you have a recollection, then, 1 6 that Mr. Bergen's responsibility would have 1 7 included marketing research and development 1 8 of products containing PCB fluids? 1 9 A. Yes, sir. 2 0 Q. Now, you said that you had contact 2 1 with him. What would have been the nature of 2 2 your contact with Mr. Bergen in his capacity 2 3 doing research, development and marketing of 2 4 those categories of products, plasticizers, 2 5 etcetera? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS S OUR I 540 WATER PCB-SD0000029985 1 A . Well, he was not doing the 2 research , obviously, the research and 3 development, and people who reported to him, 4 he may have very well talked to me about the, 5 the toxicological aspect of any of these 6 newer products or combination of products . 7 He might very well have talked to me about 8 consumer inquiries related to the safety or 9 safe handling of any of these products. 1 0 Q. Did you maintain a record of 1 1 consumer inquiries? 1 2 A. Yes. 1 3 Q. Now, would that have been -- when 1 4 you say consumer inquiries, are you speaking 1 5 of retail consumers out on the street, or are 1 6 you speaking of your wholesale consumers, 1 7 such as other manufacturers, other users? 1 8 A. Well, we did not sell any of the 1 9 products out on the street. We sold them to 2 0 other manufacturing people . 2 1 Q. I understand that you didn't sell 2 2 them a s a retail outlet , but my question to 2 3 you is, did your inquiries just deal with 2 4 other manufacturers or did it involve what 2 5 would be considered ultimately retail GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 541 WATER PCB-SD0000029986 1 consumers , also? 2 A. I don't recall any from ultimate 3 retail consumers . Like, you mean there ' s a 4 can of a Monsanto product on a hardware 5 shelf? 6 Q. No, but you did manufacture a n 7 additive for plastic seat covers for 8 automobiles, did you not? 9 A. Well, that would go to General 1 0 Motors or Ford? I don't consider that out on 1 1 the street. 1 2 Q. I understand that, but did any 1 3 consumers of those products ever trace the 1 4 product' back to Monsanto and make inquiry? 1 5 MR . COX: I object to the form of 1 6 the question . Any retail consumers ? 1 7 MR. COHEN: Yes. That's what 1 8 we're talking about , retail consumers. 1 9 BY MR. COHEN: 2 0 Q. Did someone who bought a GMC 2 1 product' and had plastic seats in it ever 2 2 trace the product back to Monsanto and make 2 3 a n inquiry? 2 4 A. They may or they may not. I do 2 5 not recall any such. They may very well GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MIS SOURI 542 WATER PCB-SD0000029987 1 have . 2 Q . Would it be fair to say since you 3 don't recall any such inquiries, you don't 4 recall whether you maintained any file of any 5 such inquiries? 6 A. Well, no. I maintain a file on 7 the products, but I don't know where the 8 inquiry came from. I don't know that it came 9 from General Motors Detroit, or a Chevrolet 1 0 agency in South Bend, Indiana . I don't know 1 1 that. I might very well have gotten a report 1 2 from, inquiry from General Motors in their 1 3 central location, but I certainly didn't get 1 4 any from the retail outlets. 1 5 Q. So if there was a n inquiry that, 1 6 where someone said they got a rash from 1 7 sitting in the upholstery in their new 1 8 Pontiac and that made its way through the 1 9 chain a t General Motors and then came over to 2 0 Monsanto , you would have that inquiry from 2 1 General Motors? 2 2 A. Yes, I would. 2 3 Q. And if it happened to attach the 2 4 inquiry all the way down to the retail 2 5 customer, you might just happen-to have that, GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MIS S OUR I 543 WATER PCB-SD0000029988 1 also? 2 A . I f it came from General Motors , i 3 certainly, yes. 4 Q But you would not have had 5 anything di rect to you? 6 A . I don't recall any such 7. Q . What toxicological info r m a t i o n 8 would Mr. B ergen have been seeking from you 9 at the time regarding the products he was 1 0 responsible for? 1 1 MR. MALIN: Objection to the form 1 2 of the question. 1 3 You can answer that, Doctor, try 1 4 to answer it. 1 5 A. Well, whatever the -- whatever 1 6 information we had on the toxicity of a 1 7 particular product. 1 8 BY MR. COHEN: 1 9 Q. Now, when you say of a particular 2 0 product, would it have been for an ingredient 2 1 in that product , such a s PCB's, or would it 2 2 have been for the finished product , such a s 2 3 "X" brand pesticide? 2 4 MR. MALIN : Objection to the form. 2 5 Again, it's speculative . GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS S OUR I 544 WATER PCB-SD0000029989 1 A . By Monsanto, you mean? 2 BY MR. COHEN: j 3 Q . Yes. I 4 A. I think he probably would want 5 both, because the basic active ingredient 6 might be in several different formulations , 7 but he also would want to know the 8 information a s to the toxicity, and safe 9 handling procedures and recommendations for 1 0 the product as it left our warehouses. 1 1 Q. Would you, then, have provided him 1 2 with information for both the product as a 1 3 whole, and its component parts? 1 4 A. Yes, I would have. 1 5 Q. How far down would you have taken 1 6 those component parts if you had a product 1 7 that contained, for example, a PCB that was 1 8 chlorinated, 48 percent: Would that be 1 9 Aroclor 1248? 2 0 A . Yes. 2 1 Q. If it was chlorinated to 4 8 2 2 percent, would you give him the information 2 3 on Aroclor 1 2 4 8, a s well a s the product? 2 4 A . 11 depends on what he was asking 25 for. In other words, if we sold a product GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 54 5 WATER PCB-SD0000029990 1 that contained A r o c1o r 1 2 4 8 that was blended 2 with another product, I would give him the 3 information on the finished product. He 4 might very well have asked what is the 5 toxicity of A r o c1o r 1 2 4 8 in relationship to 6 1254, or 1242, then I would give him that 7 information. 8 Q Did you have t h a t information 9 available to you? 1 0 A . Well, I would h a v e had it, yes. 1 1 Obviously, if it w a s n ' t a v ai 1 a b1e , I wouldn't 1 2 give it to him. 1 3 Q . You would have had information 1 4 that broke it down between the different 1 5 degrees of chlorination? 1 6 A . Yes, sir. 1 7 Q And the source of that information 1 8 would have been the studie s, the scientific 1 9 studies , the animal tests , et cetera, that 2 0 you had done over the year s; is that correct? 2 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 2 Q. And I gather , a Iso, any outside 2 3 sources of information t h a t you had 2 4 accumulated . 2 5 A. If there were such information, GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOUR I 546 WATER PCB-SD0000029991 1 yes, sir. 2 Q . I f it exists. Would Iunderstand 3 when you did the testing of products like a 4 PCB product, you never asked for testing to 5 be done on the individualcomponent parts of 6 that product? 7 A. That ' s not correct . 8 Q. Am I incorrect on that point? 9 A. Yes, you are, because if we had a 1 0 product that contained Aroclor twelve-forty 1 1 -- 1254, it was blended with 1 2 trich 1 orobenzene, for example, we would have 1 3 the information on our Aroclor 1254. I mean, 1 4 if we had basic toxicological information on 1 5 all the Aroclors, then we would get a t e s t on 1 6 the final mixture of the two products. 1 7 Q So if you had a product, the 1 8 example you just gave me was a mixture o f 1 9 Aroclor and, what did you say, a 2 0 trichlorobenzene? 2 1 A . That's correct 2 2 0 . You would test both the Aroclor 2 3 and the combination? 2 4 A. We would already have tested it. 2 5 I mean, we, we had tested Aroclor, all the GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS S OUR I 547 WATER PCB-SD0000029992 1 Aroclors during the past thirty years before 2 I left, so then if we had a mixture of a 3 compound , we would test the finished mixture . 4 We w o u1d n ' t sit down again and say, well, 5 we'll break these , this ultimate product into 6 various raw materials , a s it were, and test 7 those again, because we already knew what the 8 t o x i city of the Aroclors was. 9 Q . Well , I think that the question I 1 0 had asked was with respect to the Aroclor, 1 1 you never tested the individual components of 1 2 the Aroclor, not while you were Medical 1 3 Director. 1 4 A. Individual components of the 1 5 Aroclor? 1 6 Q. Yes. 1 7 A. Well, Aroclor is a product, and 1 8 then you mean, are you saying what individual 1 9 components of this Aroclor are there? 2 0 Q. Well, I ' m speaking of the other 2 1 components of the product Aroclor 1254, 1260, 2 2 1 24 2. 2 3 MR. MA LIN: Object to the form of 2 4 the question a s vague . 2 5 MR. COHEN: Well, what's the GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 548 WATER PCB-SD0000029993 1 objection? 2 MR. MALIN: Well, the other ; iI 3 components of the product, I think, I think 4 you are aware that A r o c1o r 1 2 5 4 and others 5 are mixtures of various PCB conjugants, if 6 that ' s what you are talking about . 7 BY MR. COHEN: 8 Q . You agree that A r o c1o r 1254 9 contained your product a s it went out on the 1 0 street contained other compounds other than 1 1 simply a, a polychlorinated biphenyl 1 2 chlorinated to 5 4 percent chlorine, wouldn't 1 3 you? 1 4 A. Yes. It's an average chlorination 1 5 of 5 4 , of 5 4 percent chlorination. There 1 6 were some that would be chlorinated, some at 1 7 {12 E 6 ) , some slower. 1 8 Q. Higher chlorination? 1 9 A. Yes, but it's a n average . 2 0 Q . But besides the chlorinated, the 2 1 polychlorinated, but it contained other 2 2 compounds? 2 3 A. 11 may have trace amoun t s of other 2 4 compounds, certainly . Any manufactured 2 5 product is not a hundred percent pure GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 549 WATER PCB-SD0000029994 1 product. There may be trace amounts, parts 2 per million of other compounds in there, yes. 3 Q. And it's my understanding that you 4 never tested the toxicity of those trace 5 . amounts of other compounds , a s you call it? 6 A. Only test the whole finished 7 A r o c1o r . We know what the toxicity of it is, 8 regardless of these trace amounts. They are 9 obviously included in the toxicity testing . 1 0 Q . Right. 1 1 A. But we did not -- 1 2 Q . But we covered this before, that 1 3 this isthe reason why you didn't feel it was 1 4 necessary to trace the individual trace 1 5 compounds; isn't that correct? 16 A. That's correct, yes, sir. 1 7 Q . Because you tested the toxicity of 1 8 the finished product. 1 9 A. That's correct. 2 0 Q. And do I take it that likewise , 2 1 when you had a combination product such a s 2 2 you just described , where you were mixing 2 3 A r o c1o r 1 2 5 4, 4 8 , 4 2 , whatever , with a 2 4 trichlorobenzene, you did not separately test 2 5 the toxicity of the trichlorobenzene? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 550 WATER PCB-SD0000029995 1 A . Wedid not,no, sir. We tested 2 the finished product. 3 Q . Did Monsanto, to your knowledge , 4 when you made a product where you made a 5 mixture like that, did Monsanto also 6 manufacture the other component of the 7 mixture, the trichlorobenzene? 8 A. They did not manufacture the 9 trichlorobenzene. 10 Q. DidMonsanto ever manufacture 1 1 trichlorobenzene? 1 2 A . I'm not cert a i n . 1 3 Q . Did Monsanto obtain toxicity data 1 4 other component from its manufacturer 1 5 or supplier? 1 6 A. Well, if we are speaking of 1 7 trichlorobenzene, there was ample information 1 8 in the literature about the toxicity of 1 9 trichlorobenzene. 2 0 Q. Well, you are telling me now that 2 1 you could have gotten that inf orma tion from 2 2 literature? 2 3 A. Yes, sir. 2 4 Q. Did you ever ask the manufacturer 2 5 for their information? - GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 551 WATER PCB-SD0000029996 1 A . No, sir. 2 Q. Did you ever determine whether the 3 trichlorobenzene that you were receiving from 4 the manufacturer likewise didn't contain 5 trace components of other compounds ? 6 A . The Binnacle Department did not; 7 the Manufacturing Department may well have. 8 Q . Was that information made 9 available to you? 1 0 A . I can't recall whether it was or 1 1 not. 1 2 Q . What is the toxicity of 1 3 trichlorobenzene? 1 4 MR. M A LIN : Objection* to the form 1 5 of the question. 1 6 If you can answer that, Doctor , 1 7 you may answer it. 1 8 A . Well, I can't give you the 1 9 numbers , but I can tell you that it is a 2 0 compound that is a chlorinated hydrocarbon, 21 obviously, that can cause liver damage, that 2 2 if inhaled in sufficient amoun t s or elevated 2 3 temperatures , would cause a chemical 2 4 hepatitis. Whether it has any effect on the 2 5 blood-forming organs or not, I'm not certain. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 552 WATER PCB-SD0000029997 1 B Y MR . COHEN : 2 Q. Do you consider it to be more or 3 less toxic than PCB's? 4 A . I don't believe that there's a 5 great deal of difference between it. It's 6 obviously more volatile than PCB's, so the 7 exposure would be greater. The inherent 8 toxicity, L D- 5 0 may very well be pretty 9 close . 1 0 Q. With respect to the elements of 1 1 toxicity that you ' v e just discussed , the 1 2 effect on the liver, is the effect of 1 3 trich1orobenzene on the liver similar to the 1 4 effect of PCB's? 1 5 A. I don't know whether the enzyme 1 6 action of trich1orobenzene, whether it 1 7 affects the same enzymes as PCB. There are 1 8 any number of functions of the liver, but you 1 9 can get the chemical hepatitis from both in 2 0 sufficient quantities . 2 1 Q. Are the quantities similar 2 2 required to induce the chemical hepatitis? 2 3 A. I can't answer that. I haven't 2 4 tested the toxicity of trichlorobenzene for 2 5 almost twenty years . ' GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 553 WATER PCB-SD0000029998 1 Q . You are talking about effects in 2 man or animals? 3 A. Beg your pardon? 4 Q . Are you talking about effects in 5 man or animals? 6 A. Animals . I do not recall any case 7 histories of intoxication by 8 trichlorobenzene, although there very well 9 may have been reports of such. 1 0 Q. How about the effects of PCB's? 1 1 Were you referring to man or animal? 1 2 A. Animals . 1 3 Q. How about on the blood-forming 1 4 compartment of the body? 1 5 A. I know of no reports of, or 1 6 toxicological information that PCB's had any 1 7 effect on the blood-forming organs. 1 8 Q . And that's both in man and 1 9 animals? 2 0 A . That's correct. 2 1 Q. And how about trichlorobenzenes? 2 2 A. Again, I say I do not, I'm not 2 3 familiar a t the present time with the effects 2 4 of trichlorobenzene on the blood-forming 2 5 elements. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS S OUR I 554 WATER PCB-SD0000029999 1 Q. Do you consider trichlorobenzene 2 more, or less toxic than benzene? 3 A . Less toxic. 4 Q. So benzene, by itself, would be 5 more toxic than trichlorobenzene? 6 A . That ' s correct . 7 Q. Did you ever make a n effort to 8 determine whether the trichlorobenzene that 9 was being sold to Monsanto Chemical Company 1 0 contained benzene? 1 1 A. No, sir, I did not. 1 2 Q. Do you know whether itcontained 1 3 benzene? 1 4 A. I do not know. 1 5 Q. Did the Manufacturing Department 1 6 ever determine whether it contained benzene? 1 7 A. They may very well have. I have 1 8 no information concerning that point. 1 9 Q. But there is no dispute in your 2 0 mind that for a number of years, Monsanto 2 1 Chemical Company manufactured , mixed and sold 2 2 a product that contained trichlorobenzene? 2 3 MR. MALIN: Objection to the form 2 4 of the question. 2 5 MR. COHEN: Well, which part do GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 555 WATER PCB-SD0000030000 1 you object to: Manufacture, mix or sold? 2 MR. M A LIN : He's already testified 3 that Monsanto did not manufacture 4 trichlorobenzene. 5 THE WITNES S : Well, Mr . Malin, I 6 said I was not certain . We manufactured a product a t Nitro that was a n insecticide , a 8 herbicide , in which trichlorobenzene was 9 used. I do not know if we bought the 1 0 trich1orobenzene or manufactured it. Now, 1 1 then you had a triple, a tripartite question, 1 2 there, so we certainly sold material that 1 3 contained tr i ch1orobenzene , so the answer to 1 4 that part is yes. 1 5 BY MR . COHEN: 1 6 Q . Okay, which, without question, you 1 7 got from somewhere. You bought it -- 1 8 A . I couldn't hear you. What did you 1 9 say? 2 0 Q. You got the material from 2 1 somewhere, bought it on the market or 2 2 whatever? 2 3 A. Or made it, yes, certainly. 2 4 Q. You had established suppliers , I 25 gather , of trichlorobenzene? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 556 WATER PCB-SD0000030001 1 A . I'm sure we -- I'm sure they did 2 but that was certainly not -- that was 3 outside my field, obviously. 4 Q Oh , you w e r en't in purchasing. 5 A . No , I w a s n ' t in purchasing or 6 manufacturing. 7 Q . You do know that you sold a 8 dielectric f 1 u i d that contained 9 trichlorobenzen e . 1 0 A . Yes, sir. 1 1 Q Pyrano1 ? 1 2 A . Both I n e r t e en and Pyranol. 1 3 Q Both c o n t a i ned tr i ch1orobenzene 1 4 A . That ' s c o r r e c t . 1 5 Q And do you know what else it 1 6 contained? 1 7 A . Sure . It contained one of the 1 8 Aroclors . 1 9 Q Who did you manufacture those 2 0 products for? 2 1 A. P y r a n o1 for G E and Inerteen for 2 2 Westinghouse. 2 3 Q. Do you know how many years you 2 4 manufactured and sold Pyranol? 2 5 A. Well, Pyranol was GE'-s product . GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST . LOUIS, MIS S OUR I 5 57 WATER PCB-SD0000030002 1 They discovered it or originally formulated 2 it, so it WHS, we were the sole manufacturer 3 in the United States f o r it. S o my -- I 4 think it was probably f or forty years . 5 Q Did G E ever make it themselves? 6 A . I don't know 7 0 How about In e r t e e n ? 8 A . What about i t ? 9 Q Well , I n e r t e e n was a product of 1 0 Westinghouse? 1 1 A . Yes, sir. 1 2 Q Were you the sole manufacturer of 1 3 Inerteen? 1 4 A . Yes, sir. 1 5 Q . For how long? 1 6 A. I don't know. 1 7 Q. Do you know what Inerteen 1 8 contained, other than trich1orobenzenes? 1 9 A. Yes, one of the Aroclors. 2 0 Q. Did either Pyranol or Inerteen 2 1 contain anything other than PCB1s and 2 2 trichlorobenzene? 2 3 A. There may be trace amounts , parts 2 4 per million of contaminants, but I don't 2 5 know. - GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 558 WATER PCB-SD0000030003 1 Did you ever make any effort to 2 determine the trace amounts, parts per 3 million, of other contaminants in those 4 products? 5 A. Did I, did the Medical Department? 6 Q . Yes. I don't expect to you have 7 done the work yourself , but did you ever 8 order it done? 9 A. No, I thought you meant did 1 0 Monsanto. 1 1 Q. Yes. 12 A. Yes what;did Monsanto or did the 1 3 Medical Department? 1 4 Q. Well, sir, I wouldn't know who 1 5 would have done it. In the past, you have 1 6 testified that you were responsible for 1 7 ordering tests done. 1 8 A. Yes, sir. 1 9 Q. As the Medical Director? 2 0 A. That's correct . 2 1 Q. Now, when I speak of "you, " it's 2 2 impossible for me to know whether "you" means 2 3 you individually or you Monsanto Company 2 4 because you are the person who did it and you 2 5 worked for the company that did'it, so it GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 559 WATER PCB-SD0000030004 1 would be helpful to me if you told me who did 2 it. 3 A . May I have the question of who did 4 what? 5 Q . Right . 6 THE COURT REPORTER: 7 " Q . Did you ever make any effort 8 to determine the trace amounts, parts per 9 million, of other contaminants in those 1 0 products?" 1 1 MR. MALIN: Just so the record is 1 2 clear, we did at one time furnish with you 1 3 the formulation of what went into these 1 4 various products, and I think both Inerteen 1 5 and Pyranol, as you recall, did have trace 1 6 amounts of chemicals which were added to it 1 7 as, one as a chlorine scavenger and two as a 1 8 stabilizer of some kind. The exact chemical, 1 9 I don't recall, but you were furnished with 2 0 that formulation. 2 1 MR. COHEN : Are you giving 2 2 substantive testimony now, Mr. M a 1in ? 2 3 MR. MALIN : I'm just telling you 2 4 what you'v e already been furnished , and you 2 5 could save a lot of time if you * would get GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS S OUR I 560 WATER PCB-SD0000030005 1 that and ask about it. I t would tell you 2 e x a c t 1 y what was in the pa rticular products 3 that you are apparently a s king about. 4 MR . COHEN: Good. 5 Can I have the last question , Mr. 6 Jordan? 7 ( The requested portion o f the 8 record read by the repo r t e r ) 9 did not. I don't know w h a t 1 0 he means by "other contaminants." I don't 1 1 know what that word "other" refers to, 1 2 because up to now, we have not singled out 1 3 any contaminant, but the answer is no. 1 4 BY MR. COHEN: 1 5 Q. Do you consider 1 6 tetrach1orobenzenes to be more or less toxic 17 than trichlorobenzenes? 1 8 A . I would think they are in the same 1 9 park, but I do not have figures for it. 2 0 Q What would be your source o f 2 1 information on the toxicity of 2 2 trichlorobenzenes and tetrachlorobenzenes , 2 3 for that matter? 2 4 A. The various toxicological books , 2 5 their reports from Henry Smith on various GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MIS S OUR I 561 WATER PCB-SD0000030006 1 chlorinated benzenes where he lists the 2 various toxicities. j 3 Q . When did you first become aware j i 4 that benzene , itself , was more toxic than 5 either tri- or tetrachlorobenzene? 6 A. I would say probably in medical 7 school , they talked about benzene , causing 8 anemia and they did not talk about 9 trich1orobenzene causing anemia. 1 0 Q. In medical school, were you aware 1 1 that trich1orobenzene was a benzene 1 2 derivative? 1 3 A. If it ever came up, I would -- 1 4 anybody with rudimentary chemistry would know 1 5 if you've got trich1oribenzene , you got it 1 6 from benzene; you start with benzene. 1 7 Q. Well, I guess the question I'm 1 8 asking you is, when you were talking about 1 9 the toxic effects of benzene in medical 2 0 school, were you just talking about benzene, 2 1 itself, or were you discussing all the 2 2 various compounds that you can make with 2 3 benzene? 2 4 A. No, just benzene. 2 5 Q. So really, you didn't get any GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 562 WATER PCB-SD0000030007 1 information in medical school about 2 trichloro- or tetrachlorobenzene? 3 A . Not that I recall . 4 Q. So I guess I'm back to the same 5 question: When did you first become aware 6 that benzene was more toxic than trichloro- 7 o r tetrachlorobenzene? 8 A. Well, if you have, inmedical 9 school, reports that benzene causes leukemia, 1 0 and you have no reports about 1 1 trich1orobenzene or tetrachlorobenzene, I 12 assumethat benzene was more toxic because 1 3 they talked about it and wrote about benzene 1 4 and did not write about the other two. 1 5 Q. Benzene does, in your opinion, 1 6 cause leukemia in man? 1 7 A. One type of leukemia, yes, sir. 1 8 Q. What kind? 1 9 A. Beg pardon? 2 0 Q. What type of leukemia? 21 A. I think it's a myelocytic. 2 2 Q. Myelocytic? 2 3 A. Mm-hmm. Could be lymphatic. I'm 2 4 not sure, but 25 Is that monomyelo I'm trying to GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MISS OURI 563 WATER PCB-SD0000030008 1 remember. Monomyelo -- I can't remember . 2 Okay. Myelocytic leukemia , you believe , is 3 caused by benzene? 4 A. I believe that is the one. I 5 could be mistaken . There are two types , 6 myelocytic and lymphocytic, and I thought the 7 myelocytic was the one that is accepted a s 8 being caused by benzene. 9 Q. And you are unaware of any 1 0 scientific data, any studies that indicates 1 1 that tetrachloro or trich1orobenzene causes 1 2 that effect in man? 1 3 A. I am not aware of it. 1 4 Q. How about in animals? 1 5 A. I'm not aware of that, either. 1 6 Q. Is there any relationship between 1 7 the toxicity of benzene , by itself , and 1 8 trichloro- or tetrach1orobenzene in 1 9 relationship, on a relationship of toxicity 2 0 that you are aware of betweenthose 2 1 compounds? 2 2 MR. MALIN: I'll object to the 2 3 form of that question because I don't 2 4 understand it, but go ahead. 2 5 MR. COHEN: Let's back up. We'll GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 564 WATER PCB-SD0000030009 1 try again. 2 BY MR . COHEN 3 Q. Would you agree that 4 polychlorinated dibenzofurans are more toxic 5 than PCB ' s ? 6 A . Yes. 7 Q. Would you believe it's 8 generally -- do you believe that it's 9 generally accepted in the scientific 1 0 community that they are a t the same level of 1 1 chlorination, that there is a n established 1 2 relationship of the toxicity between the 1 3 compounds? 1 4 MR. MALIN: Object to the form of 1 5 that question because I don't understand it, 1 6 but if you do understand it, Doctor - 1 7 A . I don't understand the question. 1 8 BY MR. COHEN: 1 9 Q. Well, would you agree that a 2 0 polychlorinated biphenyl and a 2 1 polychlorinated dibenzofuran with the same 2 2 level of chlorination would have a 2 3 relationship where the dibenzofuran would be 2 4 perhaps ten times or a hundr ed times more 2 5 toxic than the PCB? - GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 565 WATER PCB-SD0000030010 1 A . Yes. 2 Q . Do you know if any relationship ; 3 that exists, similar type relationship that i 4 exists between benzene and trichloro- or 5 tetrachlorobenzene? 6 A . No, I do not. 7 Q. How about chlorobenzene, itself? 8 A. Monochlorobenzene? 9 Q . Yes. 1 0 A. You mean in relationship -- 1 1 Q . In toxicity between 1 2 monoch1orobenzene and benzene. 1 3 A. I still believe that benzene is 1 4 the more toxic compound than the chlorinated 1 5 benzenes, whether it's mono or tetra. 1 6 Q. So it's your understanding that 1 7 when you chlorinate the benzene, it reduces 1 8 its toxicity? 1 9 A . Well, it certainly reduces the 2 0 aplastic anemia and leukemia potentiality of 2 1 the benzene. 2 2 Q. And do you know the -- what is the 2 3 effect in the organism of the benzene that 2 4 makes it more toxic for aplastic anemia and 2 5 the leukemias a s compared to the GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 566 WATER PCB-SD0000030011 1 monochlorinated, dichlorinated 2 trichlroinated , and tetrachlorinated 3 compounds ? 4 A . That affects the formation of the 5 red cells , and it has something to do with 6 change in the white cells that causes the 7 leukemia . I do not know the actual 8 physiological mechanism of how that occurs . 9 Q. Were you aware, during the 40 1 0 years that Monsanto was manufacturing 1 1 Pyranol, that benzene was more toxic than 1 2 trichlor- or tetrachlorobenzene? 1 3 A . Yes , I considered it more toxic 1 4 Q Did you ever make any effort to 1 5 determine whether the product you were 1 6 receiving, mixing and subsequently selling 1 7 contained benzene? 1 8 A. No, sir, I did not. 1 9 Q. Do you know today whether it 2 0 contained benzene? 2 1 A. I do not know. 2 2 Q. Do you recall having toxicologic 2 3 information other than from scientific, 2 4 published scientific text material regarding 2 5 the toxicity of tri- and tetrachlorobenzene GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 567 WATER PCB-SD0000030012 1 during the time period that you were 2 manufacturing and selling Pyranol? 3 A .I don't, do not believe we ran any 4 toxicity testing on trichlorobenzene, so I 5 would -- we may have. I don'tknow. Idon't 6 recall , but certainly , I relied on the 7 scientific literature a s far a s the toxicity 8 of trichlorobenzene was concerned . 9 Q . Do you know if the, if the test 1 0 work thatwas done and reported in the 1 1 scientific literature was a test on a product 1 2 that contained benzene or whether it was a 1 3 test on benzene, itself? 1 4 A. It was a test on trich1orobenzene , 1 5 and I do not know whether it contained trace 1 6 amounts of benzene. 1 7 Q. You are familiar with the name 1 8 Hooker Chemical Company? 1 9 A . I cannot hear you. 2 0 Q You are f a m i 1 i a r with the name 2 1 Hooker Chemical C ompany ? 2 2 A. Yes. 2 3 Q. Does that refresh your 2 4 recollection that they were a supplier of 2 5 Monsanto? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 568 WATER PCB-SD0000030013 1 A . No, sir. 2 Q. Do you know whether Hooker 3 Chemical Company was a supplier of product to 4 Monsanto? 5 A . No, sir, I do not know. 6 Q. Do you know what tin tetraphenyl 7 is? 8 MR. M A LIN: Would you say that 9 again? 10 THE WITNESS: Tin tetraphenyl. 11 MR. MALIN: Could you spell that, 1 2 perhaps? 1 3 MR . COHEN : Tin , t-i-n, tetra , 1 4 t-e-t-r-a, phenyl, p-h-e-n-y-1. 1 5 A. I've heard the name, but I don't 1 6 recall what its use was. I do not recall 1 7 anything about the toxicity of it, but I have 1 8 heard the name before. 1 9 BY MR. COHEN: 2 0 Q. So you anticipate my next 2 1 question ; you don't know anything about the 2 2 toxicity of tin tetraphenyl? 2 3 A. I don't recall any such 2 4 information a t present. 2 5 Q. How about epoxidedicyclo-diepoxy GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 56 9 WATER PCB-SD0000030014 1 carboxylate? 2 MR . M A LIN: Could youwrite that 3 down for the doctor and the rest of us? 4 MR. COHEN: Sure. I 5 MR. COX: I s there a n acronym to 6 put with that chemical? 7 MR . COHEN: Sure . 8 MR . MALIN: We want the whole 9 thing. 1 0 While you're doing that, can we 1 1 make a five-minute break? 1 2 MR. COHEN: Absolutely, but it 1 3 won't take five minutes to complete this. 1 4 (Recess) 1 5 BY MR. COHEN: 1 6 Q. You never heard of it? 1 7 A. I may have heard of it, certainly. 1 8 Q. You don't remember hearing it? 1 9 A. No, but -- 2 0 Q. Do you know any toxicity 2 1 information? 2 2 A. Not that I recall . 2 3 Q. When were you first aware that 2 4 dielectric fluid containing PCB's was 2 5 escaping into the environment? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 57 0 WATER PCB-SD0000030015 1 A . I can'tanswer that. I mean , 2 obviously, sometime ,the potential e xis ted 3 and I knew about the potential, but when I 4 actually knew it was out there, that it was 5 defined a s PCB, was the Jensen and Widmark , 6 '67, something of that order. 7 Q. Mid to late Sixties . You say you 8 knew thepotential for it was there. Is that 9 because you knew the various uses that the 1 0 product was being , to which the product was 1 1 being put? 1 2 A . Yes. 1 3 Q. Did Monsanto, to your knowledge, 1 4 ever make any study at any time to determine 1 5 what was happening to their product after it 1 6 was manufactured? 1 7 MR. MALIN: Object to the form of 1 8 that question . It's entirely too broad a t 1 9 the same time. 2 0 A . I don't know what you mean by was 2 1 it happening. Did it break down, are you 2 2 talking about? 2 3 BY MR. COHEN: 2 4 Q. No, I'm trying to determine if 2 5 they ever made a study to determine how the GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 57 1 WATER PCB-SD0000030016 1 product was being used and what was happening 2 to the product. 3 MR . MA LIN : Same objection . ! ! 4 Answer it if you can answer, 5 Doctor . 6 A . Well, if they sold it to a 7 t r a n s former manufacturer, they knew pretty 8 well it was going to be used in a 9 t r a n s former. If they sold it to a c apacitor 1 0 manuf acturer, they knew it was going to be 11 used in a capacitor. Once they sold it to 1 2 the, to their customer, we did not f ollow the 1 3 mater ial into the customer's plant t 0 see 1 4 what they did with it, or how they d 1 s p o s e d 1 5 of it , or whether there were leaks a t the 1 6 plant 1 7 BY MR. COHEN: 1 8 Q. To your knowledge, was Monsanto 1 9 aware that the product was being sold for 2 0 refilling and replacing, replenishing fluid 2 1 in transformers and other electrical devices? 2 2 A. Did -- I want to be sure -- repeat 2 3 that, please. 2 4 (The requested portion of the 2 5 record read by the reporter) GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS S OUR I 57 2 WATER PCB-SD0000030017 1 A. Yes, I knew they were. 2 BY MR. COHEN: 3 Q. Did Monsanto know what was 4 happening to the fluid that was first being 5 used in the transformers? 6 MR.MALIN: Object to the form of 7 that question. 8 If you can answer that, go ahead . 9 A. I don't know whether Monsanto did 1 0 or did not know. The Medical Department did 1 1 not know what was happening to it. 1 2 BY MR. COHEN: 1 3 Q. Prior to 1966 or '67, when the 1 4 Jensen and Widmark article came out, to your 1 5 knowledge, did Monsanto have any program to 16 reclaim PCB fluid from transformers ? 1 7 A . In ' 6 6 or '67? 1 8 Q Prior to that time 1 9 A . They did not that I know o f . 2 0 Q Subsequent to that time, did they 2 1 ever have such a program? 2 2 A. Yes. 2 3 Q. When did they start it? 2 4 A. I thought 1970, approximately. 2 5 Q. Do you have any documents on that? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 57 3 WATER PCB-SD0000030018 1 A . Well, they didn't use it to -- 2 they incinerated the material. They had it 3 sent back for incineration. They did not 4 recycle it, if that's what you are asking, or 5 reformulate it or -- it just -- 6 Q. I t was notpurified and 7 remanufactured, it was incinerated; is that 8 correct? 9 A. It was incinerated, that's 1 0 correct. 1 1 Q. And do you know how much they were 1 2 incinerating from 1970 onward? 1 3 A. No, I don't. 1 4 Q. Do you know when Monsanto first 1 5 started a program of marketing the product 16 only for use intotally sealed systems? 1 7 A. I thought that was around 1972. 18 MR. COHEN: Why don't we mark that 1 9 as Kelly 23. 2 0 (Kelly Deposition Exhibit 2 3 2 1 marked for identification . ) 2 2 MR. COHEN : I regret that I don't 2 3 have multiple copies of every document that 2 4 we have. We have multiple copies of some, 2 5 but not all. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 57 4 WATER PCB-SD0000030019 1 BY MR. COHEN: 2 Q . DO ctor, if you would, just take a 3 look a t Kelly 2 3 for a moment . 4 MR . COX: Well, since it's not 5 being passed around , may we have a n 6 identificatio n of the document when it is 7 marked for t h e record? 8 MR . MALIN: Its purports to be on 9 the letterhea d of Monsanto Chemical Company 1 0 from Washingt on, D.C., dated October 23rd, 1 1 1961: Subjec t, "Aroclors -- FDA," and 1 2 purportedly s igned by C. J. Eby and directed 1 3 to H. S. Berg en in St. Louis. 1 4 BY MR. COHEN: 1 5 Q. Do you have any recollection of 1 6 ever having seen that document before? 1 7 A. I certainly know about X disease, 1 8 and I don't know about this specific 1 9 memorandum, but I do know that I recall in 2 0 the early Sixties about X disease in 2 1 chickens. 2 2 Q You do agree the document is 2 3 addressed to you or copied to you, rather? 2 4 A . Copied to me, addressed to Bergen 2 5 0 I n the ordinary course, would you GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS S OUR I 57 5 WATER PCB-SD0000030020 1 have received this documen 2 A . Yes. 3 Q. Tell me what you know about X 4 disease . 5 A. Well, it's a disease characterized 6 by edema, which is a collection of fluid in 7 the pericardial, peritoneal and probably 8 pleural spaces in chickens, and I do not know 9 whether the causative agent was ever 1 0 identified. They occurred in various 1 1 outbreaks at various times around the 1 2 country, and whereas -- and I do not whether 1 3 PCB's was indicted or not. It was suspected, 1 4 obviously, at one time, but I do not recall 1 5 ever having seen a statement saying that that 1 6 was a causative agent. 1 7 Q. So would it be fair to say as you 1 8 sit here today, you cannot tell me what was 1 9 the end of this investigation? 2 0 A . That ' s correct. 2 1 Q. See the language that "Dr. Horwtiz 2 2 is hot on the trail"? 2 3 A. Yes, sir, I see that. 2 4 Q. What did, what do you suppose Mr. 2 5 Eby meant by that? - GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOUR I 57 6 WATER PCB-SD0000030021 1 MR. M A LIN : Objection to the form 2 of that question. 3 I f you think you can answer, 4 speculate a s to what was in his mind. 5 A . No, I can't speculate what he was 6 thinking. How hot is hot? No, I don't know. 7 BY MR. COHEN: 8 Q. "Hot on the trail , " it doesn't 9 mean anything to you in particular? 1 0 A. Well, it means he's got an idea 1 1 that this may be connected in some way, but I 1 2 can't speculate as to what Eby means by that, 1 3 how intense he's on the trail or if he's just 1 4 sniffing around. 1 5 Q. You see the reference here, sir, 1 6 to Monsanto's analytical analysis, your 1 7 methods of analysis? Do you see that, second 1 8 paragraph? 1 9 A. In the same paragraph, the one he 2 0 says, "We transmitted a sample of 1242 to 2 1 Horwtiz. Was unable to find c ompound X in 2 2 the sample. This seems to give our Aroclors 2 3 a clean bill of health. " Is that what you 2 4 wanted? 2 5 Q. Well, you just chose.to read those GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 57 7 WATER PCB-SD0000030022 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 two sentences. Do you accept A . I thought you said it was in the first paragraph. j | Q. No, you chose to read those two sentences . Do you accept the fact that because Dr. Horwtiz was unable to find so-called compound X in your A r o c1o r , that the PCB's are not involved? A. Well, certainly, according to Horwtiz said it wasn't. Q . You are saying Horwtiz didn't find it . A. That's correct. Q. And would you accept that as being dispositive of the issue? MR. MALIN: Object to the form of that question. If you think you understand the question -- MR. COHEN: I didn't ask him about the sentence; he read it. I'm asking him now does he accept that a s dispositive of the issue as to whether or not PCB's were involved . A. Accept it a s what? You used -- GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 578 WATER PCB-SD0000030023 1 BY MR . COHEN: 2 Q . Dispositive of the issue . 3 MR . MALIN: Same objection . 4 A . I don't know what -- "dispositive 5 is a legal term that I don't know what it 6 means . 7 BY MR. COHEN: 8 Q Well, does it resolve the question 9 for you a s to whether or not compound X is 1 0 related t o P C B ' s ? 1 1 A . Well -- 1 2 MR. MALIN: Same objection, 1 3 A . It settled it as far as I was 1 4 concerned unless new evidence showed up. 1 5 BY MR. COHEN: 1 6 Q. It did settle it as far as you 1 7 were concerned? 1 8 A . Yes, but it seems 1i k e the r e i s 1 9 ongoing investigation, so it s e 111 e d i t a s 2 0 far as July was concerned. Now w e ' r e back 2 1 here in October in a different __ i t looks 2 2 like it's a different ball game back in 2 3 October. 2 4 Q. Who was the Dr. Horwtiz referred 2 5 to in this memo? , GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 57 9 WATER PCB-SD0000030024 1 A . Of the Food Division of the Food 2 and Drug Administration. That's Dr. Horwtiz 3 Q . Yes, but what do you know about 4 him? 5 A . Don ' t know anything about him. 6 Q I s he a medical doc tor? 7 A . I don'1 t know that. 8 Q Would you accept th e r e s u Its of 9 this man's work as being -- I don't want to 1 0 use the word "dispositive" -- as resolving 1 1 the issue for you? 1 2 MR. MALIN: Object to the form of 1 3 that question. 1 4 A. Well, in July, it seemed like to 1 5 resolve it for Horwtiz, and he's the one that 1 6 brought up the problem, and it resolved it 1 7 for him. I'd accept that fact that, if he 1 8 was happy about it, I was happy about it. 1 9 BY MR. COHEN: 2 0 Q. Do you know what Dr. Horwtiz holds 2 1 his doctorate in? 2 2 A. I haven't the slightest idea of 2 3 anything about Dr. Horwtiz outside of this 2 4 memorandum. 2 5 Q. Could he even be a doctor of GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST . LOUIS , MISS OUR I 580 WATER PCB-SD0000030025 1 theology , a s far a s you know? 2 A . I don't know what he is. 3 Q I asked you a bout the sentence on 4 the analysis, methods of analysis . Do you 5 see that ? Second p a r a g r a p h , sir, about 6 halfway through. 7 (Pause) 8 BY MR. COHEN: 9 0 You see that reference, sir? 1 0 A . Yes, I do. 1 1 Q And there ' s a reference to 1 2 "chromatographic"? 1 3 A . That's correc t . 1 4 0 . Can you tell me what he was 1 5 talking about? 1 6 MR. MALIN: I 'll object to the 17 form of the question. 1 8 A. He was talking about some 1 9 analytical procedure for determining the, the 2 0 ingredients in Aroclors, yes. 2 1 BY MR. COHEN: 2 2 Q Called chromatographic? 2 3 A . That's correct. 2 4 Q Those are Mr. Eby's words? 2 5 A . Yes, sir. - GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 581 WATER PCB-SD0000030026 1 Q . Or that is Mr. Eby's word, to be 2 precise, "chromatographic," one word. 3 A . Well, that's -- he wrote the 4 memorandum and that's what he used. 5 Q. Do you know what he was talking 6 about? 7 A . Well, I know what I would 8 interpret it a s . 9 Q . What? 1 0 A. Well, a chromatographic is an 1 1 analytical procedure using color, and I don't 1 2 know with whether that's gas, liquid 1 3 chromatography or not. I don't know that. 1 4 it's a form of analytical chemi s t r y 1 5 Q What did you take it to mean back 1 6 6 1? Do you know? 1 7 A . Just what I said. 11 w a s a method 1 8 of analysis. 1 9 Q. Had you ever seen it done? 2 0 A. I may have walked into a 2 1 laboratory where someone was doing it, but 2 2 I'll have to repeat again , I am not an 2 3 analytical chemist . 2 4 Q. So you don't know exactly what 2 5 chromatographic technique he was using a t GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 582 WATER PCB-SD0000030027 1 that -- I'm sorry , that Monsanto was using a t 2 that time and that Mr. Eby was referring to? 3 A . I do not. 4 Q. Does it refresh your recollection 5 that sometime in the early Sixties, Monsanto 6 Chemical Company had chromatographic analysis 7 techniques? 8 A . Well, I do - - 9 MR . MA LIN: Object to the form of 1 0 the question. 1 1 Go ahead answer the question. 1 2 A. I would have to answer that 1 3 question by explaining we had a Dr. Munch, 1 4 M-u-n-c-h who was a Ph.D. in the Analytical 1 5 Research Department who was one of the early 1 6 workers with gas chromatography and was one 1 7 of the authorities in that particular field. 1 8 BY MR. COHEN: 1 9 Q. What department was he in? 2 0 A. Beg pardon? 21 Q. What department was he in? 2 2 A. The ResearchDepartment, in the 2 3 analytical area. 24 Q. Is that the same Dr.Munch who 2 5 later worked with Drs. Suskind and Z a c h doing GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 58 3 WATER PCB-SD0000030028 1 studies on Monsanto employees? 2 A . No . ! i 3 Q . Another person? | I 4 A . That man was not a Ph.D. That was 5 not a doctor . 6 Q. Any relationship between the two 7 that you know of? 8 A . Not that I know of. I don't even 9 know if they spelled the name the same. 1 0 Q. So would it be fair to say, then, 1 1 that Dr. Munch, who was a pioneer in 1 2 chromatographic techniques, was an employee 1 3 of Monsanto Chemical Company at the time he 1 4 pioneered these techniques? 1 5 A. That's correct. 1 6 Q. Would it be fair to say, then, 1 7 that Monsanto Chemical Company had 1 8 chromatographic analytical techniques as 1 9 early as anyone did? 2 0 A. No, I wouldn't say that, because 2 1 they -- it depends on what you are analyzing 2 2 for and where you are analyzing it. We 2 3 certainly did not have the technique to pick 2 4 up PCB's in feathers of birds which Jensen 2 5 and Wid m a r k had a t the time, in. 1 9 6 5 , or '66. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MIS SOURI 584 WATER PCB-SD0000030029 1 We may have had expertise in other fields of 2 analytical chemistry, looking for PCB's, but 3 we didn't have it in the work that Jensen was 4 doing. 5 Q. Is that because Jensen and Widmark 6 had more sophisticated analytical techniques 7 than Monsanto had in the Sixties? 8 A. I knew they had different 9 equipment at Monsanto obtained after visiting 1 0 Widmark and Jensen. That's all I could 1 1 comment on the various expertise of both, of 1 2 either group. 1 3 Q Well, i f you weren't looking at 1 4 bird f e a t h e r s , what w e r e you looking for? 1 5 What t yp e s of mil i e u o r media were you 1 6 looking for PCB's i n i n the Sixties? 1 7 A . I don' t know what they were 1 8 looking for. 1 9 Q How about your own p r o d u c t ? 2 0 A . Beg pardon? 2 1 0 . How about your own p r o d u c t ? 2 2 A . I don't know. 2 3 Q Do you know if you were look 2 4 your own product to see what it contained? 25 A. I don't know. . GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 585 WATER PCB-SD0000030030 1 Q Who would know that? 2 A . Well, I'm sure Munch would. 3 Q What ' s Munch ' s first name? 4 A . Ralph. 5 0 I s he alive? 6 A . I don ' t know. 7 Q He's a medical doctor 7 8 A . No, he ' s a P h . D 9 Q I n what field? 1 0 A . I don' t know wh at fie Id he w a s 1 1 I mean , h e was in analytic a 1 c h e m i s t r y , s o 1 2 but I don' t know any more about it than th 1 3 Q Do you know w h e re he obtained h 1 4 degree? 1 5 A . No, sir, I do not. 1 6 Q. Do you know, can you tell me, sir, 1 7 is he a younger man than yourself? 1 8 A. Yes, he's younger. Most people 1 9 are. 2 0 Q. When is the last time you heard 2 1 anything about Dr. Munch? 2 2 A. During one deposition, they were 2 3 trying to find him, and he was on his own 2 4 boat outside of the State of Washington 2 5 someplace and they tried to get .him on a GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 586 WATER PCB-SD0000030031 1 ship - t o - shore tel e p h o n e . H e had r e t i red f r o m 2 M o n s a n t o about f i v e yea r s aft e r I did , and I 3 do n o t know if t h ere w a s any connecti o n w i t h 4 M o n s a n t o after h e r e t i r e d . I haven ' t s e e n 5 him for fifteen y ears. 6 Q. So he was employed by Monsanto up 7 until about 1979? 8 A . I can't be s u r e o f the date. I 9 mean , h e was there when I 1 e f t , and I don't 1 0 know when I left a t the end o f '74, so I 1 1 don't know when he left. 1 2 Q. Do you know how old a man he was 1 3 when he retired? 1 4 A . No , I don't, whether he retired 1 5 or whether he ret ire at 65, I don't 1 6 know. 1 7 Q. Do you see the reference that Mr. 1 8 Eby apparently made some efforts and 1 9 succeeded in calming down Dr. Horwtiz? 2 0 A . Yes, sir. 2 1 Q . Do you know what he meant by that? 2 2 MR. MALIN: Object to the form of 2 3 that question. 2 4 If you think you can understand 2 5 that question, Doctor , try to answer . GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MIS SOURI 587 WATER PCB-SD0000030032 1 -L A . Well, I do not know what Mr. Eby 2 meant by the term "Calmed Horwtiz down, H 3 except that it would appear to be that h e 4 gave him information that was important t o 5 H o r w t i z and he was going to check back with 6 Eby if he needed any more information. 7 0 So that's what you took it t o 8 mean? 9 A . Yes, sir. 1 0 Q Did you ever get involved in the 1 1 hunt for compound X? 1 2 A . Did I ever get involved with 1 3 compound X? No, sir, I did not. 1 4 Q . E. P. Wheeler, we identified him 1 5 before, I believe. He was one of your 1 6 assistants? 1 7 A . That is c o r r e c t . 1 8 Q Was he a m e di cal doctor, also? 1 9 A . No . He was a chemical engineer 2 0 who was i n charge of our Industrial Hygiene 2 1 Department and was admin istratively in 2 2 control o f our Toxicolog ic a 1 Department . 2 3 Q And Mr. Wheel e r, where is he now 2 4 A . Beg pardon? 2 5 Q Where is he, Mr. Wheeler? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 588 WATER PCB-SD0000030033 1 A . I hope , in Heaven 2 0 He's d e c e a s e d ? 3 A . Yes. 4 Q So we're no t g o i n g t o take h i s 5 depositi o n . 6 A . It would be hard. 7 Q Nor are we going t o r e a c h hi m on a 8 ship-to- shore radio . 9 MR. COHEN: Why d o n ' t we mar k this 1 0 a s Kelly 2 4 . I have a c o u p 1 e o f extra 1 1 copies , folks . 1 2 (Kelly Deposition Exhibit 24 1 3 marked for identification.) 1 4 MR. McLAUGHLIN: Is this 2 4 or 27? 15 MR. COHEN: Well, we had a list 1 6 that went 1 through 22. I'm sworn to secrecy 1 7 as to where we got this. 18 MR. INNE L LI : The same source a s 1 9 everything else, Gore Reporting Company . 2 0 MR. COHEN : Yes. 2 1 MR. COX: Again, may we have the 2 2 document described for the record, please? 2 3 MR. COHEN: Do you want to ask 24 these questions, John? It's my deposition so 2 5 far. You are welcome to start . . GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 589 WATER PCB-SD0000030034 1 MR . MALIN : Well, all right for 2 Roger ' s information, it's -- 3 MR. COX: For the record purposes , 4 a s well. 5 MR . COHEN : I'm letting the 6 witness look a t it. I thought that would be 7 a courtesy before I asked him to identify it. 8 MR. COX: What the document is: 9 Not justthe number of the document, but what 1 0 it is. 11 MR. COHEN : I think the witness 1 2 can look a t the documentfirst before he's 13 asked to identify it. Ithink that we should 1 4 have the witness identify the document. 1 5 That ' s testimony. Having Counsel identify 1 6 the document is not. 1 7 (Witness peruses said 1 8 document.) 1 9 BY MR. COHEN: 2 0 Q . Do you recognize the doc urn e n t 2 1 that's been m a rked as Kelly 2 4 , sir 2 2 A . Yes , I do. 2 3 0 . Can you tell us what i t is? 2 4 A . 11 is a memorandum f roin Albert 2 5 P. Wheeler t o W . R . Richard o f M o n s a n t o , w i GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 590 WATER PCB-SD0000030035 1 copies to seven different people a t Monsanto , 2 including myself, dated December the 9th, 3 1 9 6 8, and the subject is A r o c 1 o r -- minutes 4 of our discussion with Dr. Calandra , 5 C-a-l-a-n-d-r-a. 6 Q . Is there something missing up 7 there o n the line below "R. E. Keller" and 8 above " W . T . Johns on"? 9 A . Yes, si r, there's a space there 1 0 I don' t know what that means. 1 1 Q. Does it appear to you that after 1 2 the word "of," another word starts and then 1 3 it's sort of obliterated? 1 4 MR. MALIN: Where are we referring 15 to? 1 6 Where are we? 17 BY MR. COHEN: 1 8 Q. 0 r is that "Minutes of our"? I s 1 9 that what it says? 2 0 A. "Our discussion," o-u-r. 2 1 Q . Okay. So that's, a s far a s you 2 2 know, opposite the word "Subject, " A r o c1o r 2 3 is -- "Minutes of our discussion with Dr. 2 4 Calandra" would be the entire subject? 2 5 A. That's what it looks.to be like. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS S OUR I ' 591 WATER PCB-SD0000030036 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q . Do you have any idea what is obliterated, then, between the name "Keller and "Johnson"? A . No, sir, I haven't the slightest idea. Q . Do you have any recollection of having seen this document before? A. Yes, I recall i t . Q . You do recall it? And Mr . Wheeler gentleman w e just discussed a few minutes ago and discussed six, seven months ago, likewise? A . Yes, sir. Q. And Mr. Richard? A. He is a man in the Research Department . Q. What position did he hold in the Research Department in the late Sixties? Do you recall? A. I don't know. He's a Ph.D. that was fairly high up in the Research Department . Q. So it's actually Dr. Richard? A. Dr. Richard. Q. First name? , GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 592 WATER PCB-SD0000030037 1 A . William, Bill. 2 Q . You see the handwritten material . 3 on this memo? ' 4 A . Yes, sir, I do. 5 Q. Do you have any idea who wrote 6 that material? 7 A. No, sir, I certainly don't. 8 Q. It's not your printing, is it? 9 A. I cannot hear you. 1 0 Q . It's not your printing, is it? 1 1 A. No, it certainly isn't. 1 2 Q. Do you see paragraph numbered 5? 1 3 A . Yes, sir. 1 4 Q. "The advisability of determining 1 5 the character and possibility of isolating 1 6 the 'major fraction' in each of the Aroclors 1 7 to be studied is to be explored." 1 8 A. Yes, sir, I see that. 1 9 Q. What do you make that language, 2 0 "major fraction," to mean? 2 1 A. Well, we stated it before that 2 2 Aroclors are a mixture of chlorinated 2 3 materials chlorinated to various degrees, and 2 4 certainly, I would interpret that a s saying 2 5 if you have A r o c1o r 1 2 5 4, a major fraction GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 593 WATER PCB-SD0000030038 1 may be chlorination of 54 percent. I can't 2 give you figures a s to what percentage would 3 be 1254 and what percentage would be 1250, 4 1242, or even 1260, but I think for 5 analytical reasons, they try to pick the 6 major fraction to use that a s a standard for 7 identification of Aroclors. 8 Q . And that would be the biphenyl 9 chlorinated to the degree that the particular 1 0 Aroclor was intended to be chlorinated; is 1 1 that right? Such a s in Aroclor 1 2 5 4, the 1 2 biphenyl that was chlorinated to 5 4 percent? 1 3 A. Well, I don't understand what you 1 4 mean by "intended," because when they 1 5 chlorinate the biphenyl, they end up with a 1 6 certain mixture of varying chlorination 1 7 groups . I don't know if they intended it or 1 8 could chlorinate it to precise 1254. They 1 9 may, as a laboratory compound, a laboratory 2 0 compound, do it under that type of research 2 1 facility, but in manufacturing processes , you 2 2 get the mixture, so they really are looking 2 3 for a n average of 1 2 5 4. 2 4 Q. Do I understand that you are 2 5 saying that in the laboratory , you may be GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MIS S OUR I 594 WATER PCB-SD0000030039 o > <D i--1 1 able to control the process to the point that 2 you could get A r o c 1 o r 1 2 5 4 ? 3 A . That ' s my understanding . 4 Q . When you manufacture it, you are 5 going to get something around 1254? 6 A. That's correct. 7 Q . And it's going to contain Aroclors 8 that are chlorinated to much higher 1 s 9 and A r o c 1 o r s chlorinated to lower 1 e v e 1 s ? 1 0 A . That's right. I don't k now a bout 1 1 much high e r . It could be hi g h e r . I don ' t 1 2 know if i t ' s much higher : I don't know i f 1 3 you go up t o 1268 or somethi n g like that . 1 4 Q. I'll withdraw the "much": 1 5 Somewhat higher and somewhat lower? 1 6 A. That's correct. 1 7 Q. But average, the product, if it 1 8 was as said, would come out to 1254? 1 9 A . That's correct. 2 0 g. 0 r thereabouts . 2 1 A . Yes, sir. 2 2 Q . And that's what you take " major 2 3 t i o n " to mean? 2 4 A . That's what I believe. 2 5 Q In 1968, to your knowledge , was GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MIS SOURI 595 WATER PCB-SD0000030040 1 Monsanto aware that their Aroclors contained, 2 a s you called it, trace compounds of 3 contaminants? 4 A . Yes, I think s o . 5 Q Do you know what they b e1i e v e d 6 t r a c e compounds o f contaminants t o be? 7 A . No, I don't know if there w e r e 8 inorganic compounds like iron or something 9 like that. I'm not -- I don't knowwhat they 1 0 were. 1 1 Q. How about organic compounds? 1 2 A. They may, but they did not -- I'll 1 3 anticipate your question -- they didnot know 1 4 whether it contained dibenzofurans. 1 5 Q. So when we get to the chlorinated 1 6 hydrocarbons, you are going to say they did 1 7 not know that it contained a dibenylfuran , 1 8 dioxins , quarter phenyls , e t cetera? 1 9 MR. MALIN: Objection . Object to 2 0 the form of the question . 2 1 A. They -- 2 2 MR. COHEN: What's the objection? 2 3 I'm asking about all these compounds. 2 4 MR . MALIN : Well -2 5 MR. COHEN: They were not worried GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 596 WATER PCB-SD0000030041 1 about it a t that time. 2 MR. MALIN: Well, you are 3 intimating 4 MR . COHEN That what? 5 MR. MALIN: That certain compounds 6 may have been contained therein, so I object 7 to the form of the question. 8 BY MR. COHEN: 9 Q. Well, you would agree with me, 1 0 Doctor, would you not, that trace compounds, 1 1 as you called it, of contaminants such as 1 2 dibenzofurans exist in the manufactured 1 3 Aroclor? 1 4 A . They may, yes, sir. 1 5 Q How about dibenzodioxins? 1 6 A . No, I've never seen any report of 1 7 that. 1 8 Q How about quarter phenyls? 1 9 A . I've never seen any report of 2 0 those. 2 1 Q. How about benzenes? 2 2 A. I object to the form of that. 2 3 Well, make it clear: Are you talking about 2 4 the Aroclors compounds -- 25 MR. COHEN: I'm talking about your GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 5 97 WATER PCB-SD0000030042 1 Aroclor product, your Aroclor product. 2 MR. M A LIN: Before it's formulated 3 with trichlorobenzene? 4 MR . COHEN : Yes, before it's 5 formulated. 6 MR . MALIN: All right . 7 BY MR. COHEN: 8 Q . Aroclor, let's talk about Aroclor 9 right n o w . Le t ' s not talk about the P y r a n o 1 1 0 and the I n e r t e e n that you also so Id , but in 1 1 the A r o c 1 o r s , d o you have any inf o r m a t i o n 1 2 that it c o n t a i n e d benzene , w h e t h e r 1 3 c h 1 o r i n a t e d or otherwise? 1 4 A. I do not know. I have no 1 5 information to answer to that. 1 6 Q. How about naphthalenes? 1 7 A . I do not have any information 1 8 about that. 1 9 Q. Chlorinated naphthalenes ? 2 0 A. I still don 't know that, have any 2 1 information about that 2 2 Q. Would it be fair to say the only 2 3 trace contaminant that you are a w a r e of being 2 4 present in the product from time to time is 2 5 dibenzofuran? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST . LOUIS, MISSOURI 598 WATER PCB-SD0000030043 1 A. At the present time, yes, but I 2 feel sure I have seen analytical reports of 3 other trace compounds, but I do not recall 4 them. 5 Q. Do you remember when we were 6 talking, here, last time, you talked about 7 some very early studies that had been done by 8 a Dr. D rink er? 9 A . Yes, sir. 1 0 Q And you said that you felt that 1 1 when you 1 ooked at his studies regarding the 1 2 toxicity o f dielectric fluids, supposedly PCB 1 3 fluid that he was testing back in the late 1 4 Thirties, that you didn't think that that was 1 5 reflective of Monsanto products; is that 1 6 right? 1 7 A . That' s correct . 1 8 Q . And was that because it contained 1 9 chlorinated naphthalenes? 2 0 A. No, sir, it turned out it 2 1 contained chlorinated poly -- there was 2 2 another benzene ring hooked on. It was 2 3 chlorinated dibenz -- m y analytical expertise 2 4 is failing me, but i t was , he thought it was 2 5 1260 or 1268. Oh , i t was chlorinated GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 599 WATER PCB-SD0000030044 1 diphenyl benzene, I believe. It was not a 2 chlorinated naphthalene , it was a 3 chlorinated , more or less of a terphenyl . It 4 was chlorinated diphenyl benzene. 5 Q . Which was not a product that you 6 were manufacturing? 7 A. Hmm? Yes, we manufactured it, but 8 it was not a PCB. 9 Q. Did you sell it for dielectric 1 0 fluid? 1 1 A. No, we did not. 1 2 Q. What was it used for? Do you 1 3 recall? 1 4 A . I don't re call. 1 5 Q I f I could ask you, sir, to look 1 6 at the Kelly 24 exhibit again, do you see 1 7 that paragraph with the asterisk at the 1 8 bottom, below paragraph 6? 1 9 A . Yes, sir. 2 0 Q . It says, "Equally important, it 2 1 will provide Scott an opportunity to look for 2 2 the G C peaks reported in the literature. " 2 3 A. Yes, sir. 2 4 Q. I believe that asterisk refers to 2 5 the last sentence in Paragraph number 1. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS S OUR I 600 WATER PCB-SD0000030045 1 A . Yes, sir. 2 Q. Who is Scott? 3 A . My guess , my assumption is it's 4 Scott Tucker, who is a Monsanto analytical 5 chemist that was working on this problem. 6 Q. Which problem? 7 A. The problem of analyzing chickens 8 and toxicological specimens for the presence 9 of PCB's. 1 0 Q. Whatwere they referring towhen 1 1 they say, "GC peaks reported in the 1 2 literature"? 1 3 A. Gas chromatography, I presume. 1 4 Q. Would this refresh your 1 5 recollection that as of the late Sixties, the 1 6 literature was reporting gas chromatographic 1 7 tracings for the Aroclors? 18 A. Would what? Would yourepeat that 1 9 question? 2 0 (The requested portion of the 2 1 record read by the reporter) 2 2 A . Well, I'm sure they were, but what 2 3 I said earlier was, we did not have the 2 4 additional refinements that Widm a r k and 2 5 Jensen had when they found it in eagle GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 601 WATER PCB-SD0000030046 1 f e a thers and other avian species Now this j 2 i s December ' 6 8 . I'm sure we h a d that, that | 3 ref inement in the added equipmen t that was 1 4 obt a i n e d . 5 Q . What was that added equipment? I s 6 that mass spectrometry? 7 A . I don't know whether it was 8 associated with other analytical things like 9 electron captures , things of that sort that I 1 0 don't know anything about, but all I know is, 1 1 they didn't have it and they got it. 1 2 Q. You don't see any mention in this 1 3 memo of electron capture or mass 1 4 spectrometry, do you? 1 5 A. No, I don't. 1 6 Q . Do you know what the detection 17 limits were that Monsanto had been working 1 8 with in their chromatographic analytical 1 9 technique prior to the time that they met 2 0 with Jensen and Widmark? 2 1 A. No, sir, I do not. 2 2 Q. Was it in the parts per million 2 3 range , or parts per billion , or parts per 2 4 trillion? Do you know? 25 A. I do not know. ' GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 602 WATER PCB-SD0000030047 1 Q. How about Jensen and Widmark: Do 2 you know what detection limit range they were 3 working? 4 A . No, sir, a t the present time, I do 5 not know that. 6 Q. Do you believe, sir, that using 7 epidemiological techniques or otherwise, that 8 you can establish to an acceptable level of 9 certainty whether an exposure to any chemical 1 0 can cause any form of medical injury? 1 1 MR . MALIN: Object to the form of 1 2 that question. It has too many vagaries . 1 3 If you think you can answer that, 1 4 Doctor . 1 5 THE WITNESS : Well, I'll have to 1 6 have it repeated. 1 7 (The requested portion of the 1 8 record read by the reporter) 1 9 A . What do you mean by "or 2 0 otherwi s e " ? 2 1 BY MR . COHEN: 2 2 Q . Other than epidemiological 2 3 studies 2 4 A . Yes, that's what you said, "or 2 5 otherwise." GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 603 WATER PCB-SD0000030048 1 Animal studies , anything you would 2 care to use, any scientific testing 3 technique . 4 MR. MALIN: Same objection. 5 A . Well, first of all, it's very hard 6 to prove a negative , but I think you could 7 get a certain area of confidence through 8 epidemiological studies, if they are 9 correctly carried out, and follow the four 1 0 accepted tenets of epidemiology. I think 1 1 animal testing is not as important because 1 2 they are usually given enormous amounts 1 3 vis-a-vis what the individual is exposed to, 1 4 but the answer, I would say, with those 1 5 qualifications, is yes. 1 6 BY MR. COHEN: 1 7 Q . Well, do I understand your 1 8 criticism of animal studies is the high 1 9 dosage of the agent that's being studied? 2 0 A . Well, that ' s one of them. The 2 1 other is , animals d o not metabolize things 2 2 the same a s human s in all respects. 2 3 Q. Have you, yourself , ever engaged 2 4 in animal research? 2 5 A. You mean have I done ,toxicological GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 604 WATER PCB-SD0000030049 1 handl ing of the animals that administered the 2 material to them? I have not. I've read 3 lots and lots of toxicological reports. 4 Q . I'm sorry , you ' v e read lots of 5 toxicological reports? 6 A . Yes, but I ' m not a toxicologist ; I 7 did not do the actual animal experimentation. 8 Q. Well, without regard to whether 9 you actually were in the lab, feeding the 1 0 animals the agent, and studying them either 1 1 during their lives or postmortem, my question 1 2 is, have you ever been involved in animal 1 3 research at any level, whether you supervised 1 4 it, ordered it, directed it, controlled it, 1 5 established the protocol, any element of the 1 6 activity? 1 7 A. Well, you had four verbs in there. 1 8 I certainly ordered them. 1 9 Q. Okay. 2 0 A. I certainly read their reports . I 2 1 certainly was a t the beginning of the 2 2 experiment where the protocol was decided 2 3 upon, so I don't know what other questions . 2 4 I did not engage in the actual dosing of the 2 5 animals . GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MIS SOURI 605 , WATER PCB-SD0000030050 1 Q A t any time during your 2 educational process or subsequent thereto, 3 were you involved , other than a s you ' v e just 4 described, in doing animal research? 5 MR. MALIN: Object to the form of 6 that question. I don't know what you mean by 7 educational process or otherwise, but if you 8 understand it, Doctor, go ahead. 9 BY MR. COHEN: 1 0 Q. Well, start with medical school . 1 1 A. Yes, sir. 1 2 Q . Did you do any animal testing in 1 3 medical school for research projects? 1 4 A. Just for educational and 1 5 pharmacology, you dosed animals, but that was 1 6 not for research ; that was just for 1 7 educational purposes. 1 8 Q. Well, that's what I was asking 1 9 about. So during your educational process, 2 0 you actually did do animal-type research a s 2 1 part of your educational process, itself? 2 2 A. Well, what you say, it isn't what 2 3 you say a s research. I don't agree that the 2 4 animal work we did in medical school was 2 5 research . That was educational . We knew GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 606 WATER PCB-SD0000030051 1 what was going to happen, and it gave us a 2 better idea of what was going to happen . We 3 weren't trying to find out something unknown, 4 which is my impression or definition of 5 research . 6 0 . So you we re doing the testing a t 7 that time, I guess , to learn the technique? 8 Would that be fair to say? 9 A. To learn the action of the drugs, 1 0 yes. The technique, I don't think, was -- 1 1 you don't need much technique to inject an 1 2 animal . 1 3 Q. All right, let's talk about the 1 4 studies, then, that you had, as you said, 1 5 ordered. I believe you said that you were 1 6 involved in ordering them and you were also 1 7 involved in establishing protocols. Is that 1 8 correct? 1 9 A. That is correct. 2 0 Q. What was your purpose in 2 1 undertaking the animal studies? 2 2 A. To find out what the toxicity of a 2 3 particular product was, either the acute 2 4 toxicity or the chronic toxicity. 2 5 Q. Now, what was -- what organism GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 6 07 WATER PCB-SD0000030052 1 were you interested in learning the toxicity 2 3 A . Well, obviously , we would be 4 interested in knowing -- the organism would 5 be man, but man is not a n accepted laboratory 6 test animal, so we used the common ones of 7 rodent species and canine species. 8 Q. You also used other animals, too, 9 did you not? 1 0 A . I n special cases, we used fowl, 1 1 and later o n , monkeys may have been used, but 1 2 they were not used anytime when I was there. 1 3 Q Did you feel that the inf ormati 1 4 that you would gain from the animal tests 1 5 would be r e 1 e v ant t o determining the toxic 1 6 in man? 1 7 A . It could and could not, y e s , but 1 8 it's the only thing we've got . It's the only 1 9 game in town. It might give you the target 2 0 organ, and it would give you a , an 2 1 appreciation o f the toxicity of this compound 2 2 versus other compounds that were tested in 2 3 the same species. 2 4 Q. Well, when you were, a s Medical 2 5 Director of Monsanto Chemical Company, asked GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 608 WATER PCB-SD0000030053 1 questions about the toxicity of certain 2 compounds, you ga v e o p i n i ons, didn't you? 3 A . Yes. 4 Q Those opinions were based in large 5 measure on animal studies , were they not? 6 A . Yes, s i r . 7 Q Animal studies that were n e g a t i v e , 8 for example, that induced no toxicity, you 9 reported to inquirers that the substance was 1 0 negative, it was not toxic. 1 1 A. In the doses given, yes, sir. 1 2 Q. So you felt that the animal 1 3 studies were probative, certainly, of 1 4 negative levels of toxicity? 1 5 A. Well, usually, in an animal study, 1 6 youstrive to set the protocol so that you 1 7 will get positive findings, and a level that 1 8 you will get negative findings, and a level 1 9 in between that you hope would be the highest 2 0 negative level obtainable, so when we would 2 1 report to our inquiries, in answer to 2 2 questions , we would say this has a n L D- 5 0 of 2 3 "X" grams, which we consider to be a mild 2 4 toxicity a s far a s a n industrial chemical is 2 5 concerned. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS S OUR I 609 WATER PCB-SD0000030054 1 J. Now, if you are talking about 2 other information gained from animals, you j 3 could say that this material shows it can be 4 absorbed through the skin, this material 5 shows that -- I mean, these data show that 6 small amounts can be given over a lifetime of 7 animals with no demonstrable ill effect. 8 Q . So you would agree that the animal 9 tests , for example , are probative of routes 1 0 of absorption? 1 1 A . Yes, sir. 1 2 Q. Would you believe that the 1 3 information you gained regarding routes of 1 4 absorption in animals would be translatable 1 5 into man? 1 6 A . Yes, sir. 1 7 Q. But a s I understand it, you do not 1 8 feel that the results of the toxicity in 1 9 animals would be translatable to man? 2 0 A. Well, it could and could not. 2 1 Q. What would be the factors that 2 2 would make it translatable to man? 2 3 A. If one were to find out that the 2 4 material was metabolized by the test species 2 5 in the same way a s it occurs -- as it does in GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS S OUR I 6 10 WATER PCB-SD0000030055 1 man, that would be probative, as you stated. 2 Animal species vary. The guinea pig may or 3 may not be ten times a s sensitive or 4 one-tenth a s sensitive a s a rat. 5 ( Pause for telephone call. ) 6 MR. COHEN: Hold it there , please , 7 Doctor . 8 (Pause) 9 (Discussion off the record) 10 THE WITNESS: Where were we? 1 1 MR. COHEN: Why don't you read the 1 2 answer back for him, Mr. Jordan. 13 THE WITNESS : Start with the 1 4 question. 1 5 MR. COHEN : Good. 1 6 (The requested portion of the 1 7 record read by the reporter) 1 8 A. (Continuing) And the human may be 1 9 entirely different to either of them. 2 0 BY MR. COHEN: 2 1 Q. How would you find out if the 2 2 material were metabolized by the test species 2 3 in the same way a s it is in man? 2 4 A. I think you look for the breakdown 2 5 products in the blood and the urine. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 6 11 WATER PCB-SD0000030056 1 Q Did you, in your animal testing , 2 make any efforts to look for the breakdown 3 products , like the metabolites in the blood 4 and the urine? 5 A . We may have in some of them. I do 6 not believe we did for the PCB experiments . 7 Q. You did not? 8 A. Not that I know of. I don't know. 9 Q. Any particular reason why you did 1 0 not look for the breakdown products in the 1 1 blood and the urine for PCB's? 1 2 A. It may be that we did not have, in 1 3 1969-70, as refined methods to get down to a 1 4 detection level that would be needed. That 1 5 may be it, and I think we also found the 1 6 target organ in the animals was the same as 1 7 the targetorgan in the human, as judged by 1 8 the rare cases of acute exposure to hydraulic 1 9 fluids containing, or to heat transfer 2 0 compounds containing PCB's. 2 1 Q. And that target organ is the 2 2 liver? 2 3 A. I can't hear you. 2 4 Q. That target organis the liver? 2 5 A. Yes, sir. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 6 12 WATER PCB-SD0000030057 1 Q. So you determined that, in your 2 animal tests , the target organ in the animals 3 was the same as i n humans , the 1 i v e r 4 A . That'' s correct 5 Q That'1 s for PCB ' s . 6 A . Yes, s i r . 7 Q So did you, t h e r e b y , f e e 1 8 was no longer n e c e s sary to look fo r the 9 metabolites in the animals to dete r m i n e that 1 0 they were the same as in humans? 1 1 A . I , as I said before, I do no t know 1 2 if we did, if they did look during the course 1 3 of the experim e n t s for the metabol i t e s . I do 1 4 not know, but I think if you found , had the 1 5 same target organ in both, you would be on 1 6 very, relatively safe ground to think that 1 7 they were metabolized the same. 1 8 Q. Well, then, would you agree that 1 9 the results of the animal studies, the animal 2 0 studies of PCB's, would have relevance to 2 1 determining or predicting disease in man? 2 2 A . Yes, sir, but again, one has to 2 3 look at the exposure level and the route o 2 4 exposure. 2 5 Q. Now, sir, you said it may be that GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MIS SOURI 6 13 WATER PCB-SD0000030058 1 we did not have the refined techniques back 2 in the late Sixties. Are you saying that you 3 did not have the refined techniques back in 4 the Sixties to look for the metabolites in 5 the animals? 6 A. We may not have. I do not know if 7 we had analytical techniques to look for the 8 metabolic end c h e m i c a 1 s in the blood. I 9 don't know if we had that. 1 0 Q Do I unde r s t a n d that as you sit 1 1 here, today, i n 19 9 1 , you la c k the 1 2 recollection t o tell u s what you h 1 3 available to you i n the late S i x t i 1 4 A. That's correct. 1 5 Q. Would it be fair to say that as of 1 6 the time you retired as Medical Director at 1 7 the end of 1974, that you had the analytical 1 8 techniques to determine the metabolites in 1 9 the animals' blood and urine? 2 0 A. I can't answer that because I 2 1 don't know what the metabolites were. I 2 2 mean, I don't know that. I didn't know it 2 3 then and I don't know it now, so I do not 2 4 know whether we had such refinement. We 2 5 certainly had a more refined analytical GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 6 14 WATER PCB-SD0000030059 1 procedure in 7 4 than we had in 6 8 or 7 0 , 2 but I can't answer that any more than -- 3 Q . Let me ask you this: If you had 4 the technique available to you, would it be 5 fair to say that you would not have done 6 anything to limit the protocol or the scope 7 of the examination so that the metabolites 8 would not be studied? 9 MR. MALIN: Object tothe form of 10 that question. I really don't understand it. 1 1 If you understand it, answer it. 1 2 MR. COHEN: If you are confused, 1 3 Doctor, I'll restate it. 1 4 THE WITNESS: Restate it, please. 1 5 MR. COHEN: Certainly. 1 6 BY MR. COHEN: 1 7 Q . You never made any effort to 1 8 restrict the examination of the blood and 1 9 urine products of the animals to determine 2 0 the existence of the metabolites in those 2 1 animals, did you? 2 2 A. No, the answer -- you said I never 2 3 made any effort to restrict the 2 4 examination -- 2 5 Q . Right. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 6 15 WATER PCB-SD0000030060 1 A . No, I did not. 2 Q You didn't do anything to prevent 3 them from finding out if it was metabolized 4 the s a m e way a s in hum a n s ? 5 A . No . 6 Q Do you know of anybody in Monsanto 7 who e 0) > said, "Don ' t do that"? 8 A . No, sir, t h ey did not. 9 Q Do you know of any responsible 1 0 s c i e n t i s t who ever too k such action? 1 1 A . Such action saying, "Don't do it"? 1 2 Q Yes, trying to prevent the 1 3 discovery of the metabolites. 1 4 A . No, sir. 1 5 MR. MALIN: Object to the form of 1 6 the question as too broad and vague, but -- 1 7 A. I know of no scientific person, I 1 8 know of no person who tried to restrict the 1 9 testing we carried out. 2 0 BY MR. COHEN: 2 1 Q. From 1975 to the present, have you 2 2 seen evidence from animal studies that 2 3 indicate the study of metabolites of PCB's in 2 4 animals? 2 5 A. I think I have, but -- I have some GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS S OUR I 6 16 WATER PCB-SD0000030061 1 recollection, but I don't know where I saw 2 them. 3 Q. Would you agree that the results 4 of those tests indicate that the material is 5 metabolized the same way in laboratory 6 animals a s in humans ? 7 A . No, sir, I can't answer that. I 8 don't know whether that ' s true or not. 9 Q. You don't know? 1 0 A . No . 1 1 Q Do you know if it 's metabolized i n 1 2 any 1 a b o ratory animal the s a me as in humans 1 3 A . No, I don't know that. 1 4 Q Are you familiar with the work 1 5 that has been done on primat e s ? 1 6 A . Vaguely. I don't know the exact 17 details , yes, sir. 1 8 Q Do you know w h e t h e r they 1 9 determined, when they did t h eir study o n 2 0 primates , whether the P CB ' s were metabolized 2 1 in primates the same a s in humans? 2 2 A. Who is the "they"? 2 3 Q. The scientists who did those 2 4 studies . 2 5 A. I do not know whether they went GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 6 17 WATER PCB-SD0000030062 1 into metabolites or not. 2 Q . Have you ever seen any of the work 3 done by D r s . Allen and Bersotti? 4 A . I may have. The name sort of 5 rings a bell,, but I don 't recall the details 6 of their study. 7 Q Now,. you s a id that you f e e 8 animal s t u d i e s are r e 1 e v a n t t o p r e d i c 9 animal s t u d i e s o f , i n v o 1 v i n g PCB's a r 1 0 relevant to predicting d i s e a s e i n m a n 1 1 that right? 1 2 MR. MALIN: I object to the form 1 3 of the question. You talked about 1 4 toxicology. 1 5 MR. COHEN: I f you want to. we'll 1 6 go back and read his last answer 17 MR . MALIN: He talked about 1 8 toxicological effect. He didn't say d i s e a s e 1 9 BY MR. COHEN: 2 0 Q . All right, let'1 s talk about the 2 1 toxicologic effect, Doctor. Do you believe 2 2 that the animal studies are relevant to 2 3 showing the toxicological effect of PCB1s in 24 man? 2 5 A. Yes, they are relevant if one GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 6 18 WATER PCB-SD0000030063 1 considers the dose and the exposure. 2 Q . Okay. Now, when you say they ' re 3 relevant if you consider dose and exposure , 4 step by step, tell m e what you mean. 5 A . What I mean i s , if you give 6 animal a PCB in 1 0 ,000 parts per mi11io 7 will get a n effect, obviously . Now, that 8 effect could be relative to man with the 9 exception that you don't expect the man to 1 0 get 10,000 parts of PCB in his diet for a 1 1 lifetime. That's the -- that's as far as the 1 2 dose is concerned. 1 3 As far as the exposure is 1 4 concerned, if you have an individual or 1 5 animals that have certain ill effects from 1 6 skin contact, that is relevant to the action 1 7 of the material as being absorbed through the 1 8 skin, but it's not relative to the use that 1 9 the material is put to. In other words, if 2 0 you -- if a man has exposure to PCB over a 2 1 good part of his body every dayfor the -- 2 2 for during his working career, that is -- the 2 3 animal experimentation would be relevant to 2 4 that, but you do not expect that kind of a n 2 5 exposure . GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MIS SOURI 6 19 WATER PCB-SD0000030064 1 Q All right. Now, while you don't 2 expect that kind of exposure, you would agree 3 that if a human was exposed to PCB's so that 4 it was on his body, as you described, during 5 substantial portions of his workday over a 6 long period of time, you could expect the 7 same type of absorption as you found in the 8 animal? 9 A. Yes, sir, I think so. That's why 1 0 we were against repeated or prolonged skin 1 1 contact . 1 2 Q. And that's because you are 1 3 concerned that it will be absorbed into the 1 4 human? 1 5 A. We don't want it absorbed into the 1 6 human, yes. 1 7 Q. Now, if it is absorbed into the 1 8 human, what toxicologic effects would you 1 9 expect? 2 0 A. It depends on the dose. If -- you 2 1 may have no toxicological effects a t all. 2 2 Q A t extremely low dose 1 e v e 1 s ? 2 3 A . Yes, sir. I don ' t know what you 2 4 mean by extremely low. I mean, if you are 2 5 talking about a teaspoonful on the skin r GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST . LOUIS , MISSOURI 620 | WATER PCB-SD0000030065 1 but - - o r the a v e r a g e work expo sure the 2 person has had in the electrica 1 industry 3 that ' s one thin g . I mean, a s , from your 4 epidemiological standpoint, there have not 5 been any illnesses in industrial workers who 6 were manufacturing or using PCB's with the 7 exception of chloracne. 8 Q. What do you know about the 9 exposures in those epidemiological studies? 1 0 A. Well, I've been in a couple of 1 1 plants where they had it, but I don't know 1 2 if -- I'm taking the word of the government 1 3 epidemiologists, I'm taking the word of 1 4 Kimbrough, who is the leading government 1 5 expert on PCB's, in which he stated that 1 6 there have been no, with the exception of 1 7 chloracne and acute episodes, have been no 1 8 demonstrable clinical effect in workers. 1 9 Q. So you are sitting here, today, 2 0 you are relying upon Dr. Kimbrough. 2 1 A. Among other people , yes, sir. 2 2 Q. I'm asking you what you know about 2 3 the exposures that these people had in the 2 4 epidemiological studies . 2 5 MR. MALIN: Object to the form of GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST . LOUIS, MIS SOURI 621 WATER PCB-SD0000030066 1 that question. 2 Do you want to identify the 3 studies you are talking about? 4 MR. COHEN: Any studies. He just 5 talked about studies in electrical workers . 6 BY MR. COHEN: 7 Q . What do you know about the 8 exposure, whether from the report or from 9 your own information from those studies that 1 0 you referred to? 1 1 A. I don't know the details of the 1 2 exposure levels, but there have been studies 1 3 on PCB levels in industrial workers, and 1 4 those were the ones that Kimbrough r e 1 i e d o n 1 5 i n her statement. There were certain 1 eve 1 s 1 6 o f PCB 's found in her blood. I've b e e n i n a 1 7 transformer factory where I've seen the 1 8 exposure that they get, and I assume that the 1 9 other transformer manufacturers were pretty 2 0 much like the one I was in. 2 1 Q. Do you know if the exposures in 2 2 those epidemiological studies involved new 2 3 dielectric fluid? 2 4 A. I don't know that. 2 5 Q. Do you know if it involved used GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MIS S OUR I 622 WATER PCB-SD0000030067 1 dielectric fluid? 2 A . I would assume it did involve 3 both, because there were topping off 4 transformers, there were repair of 5 transformers, where the people were, were 6 getting exposure. 7 Q . It's an assumption on your part? 8 A . Yes, sir. 9 Q. You don't recall what the report 1 0 said? 1 1 A. Well, the report said there have 1 2 been no cases of clinical -- 1 3 Q. I don't mean to interrupt you, 1 4 sir. I'm trying to focus on this one issue 1 5 of what you know about the exposure from 1 6 these epidemiological studies. Do you know 1 7 whether it involved new dielectric fluid, o r 1 8 used fluid , or some combination of both? Do 1 9 you know? 2 0 A. No, I do not know. 2 1 Q. Do you know whether the fluid was 2 2 Aroclor? 2 3 A. I don't know if it was Aroclor , 2 4 except that these people who reported the 2 5 epidemiological studies said that industrial GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 623 WATER PCB-SD0000030068 1 workers exposed to PCB's, and Monsanto was 2 A r o c 1 o r were the only PCB's manufactured for 3 the industrial transformer use, capacitor 4 use, and conceivably, they may have used 5 foreign material, but I don't know. 6 Q . Could have used Cantaclor? 7 A. Beg pardon? 8 0 Could have used Cantaclor? 9 A . Could have,, but I 've seen no 1 0 reports t o the United States that they used 1 1 French P C B '1 s or Japanese P C B 1 s . 1 2 Q. The Japanese PCB's, some of them 1 3 have five times as many dibenzofurans in new 1 4 product as Aroclor; you agree with that? 1 5 A . Yes. 1 6 Q. How about the French? 1 7 A. I don't know about five times , but 1 8 they 'v e had the one test I've seen that they 1 9 had more than was found in the Monsanto 2 0 product. 2 1 Q. Do you know if the dielectric 2 2 fluid that was involved in any of these tests 2 3 also contained tetrachlorobenzenes? 2 4 A . I do not know 2 5 Q Free benzenes? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS S OUR I 624 WATER PCB-SD0000030069 1 A . I do not know that. 2 Q C h 1 o r inated naphthalenes? 3 A . I do not know that. 4 Q What about animal studies from 5 repeated e x p o s u r e through skin; do they show 6 any t o xi c o 1 o g i c effects? 7 A . Yes, sir. 8 Q What toxicologic effects do they 9 show? 1 0 A. Chemical hepatitis, changes in the 1 1 liver . 1 2 Q. Anything else? 1 3 A. Not that I recall. 1 4 Q. Any neoplasms? 1 5 A . No, sir. 1 6 Q. No neoplastic disease reported? 17 A. Not that I recall . Usually, skin, 1 8 skin applications do not run over prolonged 1 9 periods of time. 2 0 Q. So they -- the testing is too 2 1 short to develop a level of absorption in 2 2 those tests to develop other types of changes 2 3 such as neoplasms? 2 4 A. I would think that ' s correct . 2 5 Q. Would you feel, from what you know GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 625 WATER PCB-SD0000030070 1 about oral ingestion animal studies, that if 2 dermal absorption tests were continued over a 3 longer period of time, chronic high-level 4 exposures, thatneoplasms could develop in 5 animals? 6 A. I do not think that, to use your 7 term, "chronic high-level exposure" would 8 allow the animal to live long enough to 9 develop any neoplasms. 1 0 Q. And is that because of the life 1 1 expectancy of the animal, or because it would 1 2 die from other toxic reactions to the 1 3 substance? 1 4 A. He would, he would have problems 1 5 with other toxic reactions, if you say 1 6 chronic high-level exposure. You'd have to 1 7 really quantify what you mean by "high-level" 1 8 for me to answer that with hundred percent 1 9 accuracy . 2 0 Q. All right. So without a hundred 2 1 percent accuracy, you would expect the animal 2 2 to die from other toxic reactions before it 2 3 developed neoplasms? 2 4 A . I f you gave it, if you had a high 2 5 enough level, yes. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MIS SOURI 626 WATER PCB-SD0000030071 1 0 You do agree that animal studies 2 have shown neoplastic disease when the 3 animals have had high-level oral ingestion of j ii 4 PCB ' s ? | | 5 A . There have been positive studies 6 and negative studies . 7 Q. You do agree there are positive 8 studies? 9 A. Yes, sir. 1 0 Q. How about changes to the bone 1 1 marrow, the blood-forming cells? 1 2 A. I do not recall of any such 1 3 action . 1 4 Q . How about other f or ms of liver 1 5 disease? 1 6 A. There has been hypertrophy of the 1 7 liver; there's been enlargement of the liver 1 8 in chronic feeding of animals. 1 9 Q. How about derangement of enzyme 2 0 production? 2 1 A . Yes, sir. 2 2 Q. Are you aware whether derangement 2 3 of enzyme production has any other adverse 2 4 physiologic effects? 2 5 MR. MALIN: Are you talking about GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 627 WATER PCB-SD0000030072 1 animals , here? 2 MR. COHEN : In animals . 3 THE WITNESS : Say that over again . 4 Repeat the question. 5 (The requested portion of the 6 record read by the reporter) 7 A. Any other than what? 8 BY MR. COHEN: 9 Q . Other than the derangement of the 1 0 enzyme production , itself . 1 1 A. Well, usually, the, the enzymes 1 2 are affected by any toxic compound. If a 1 3 person takes three ounces of alcohol a t 1 4 night, he will get changes in his enzyme 1 5 production. Now, whether -1 6 Q Does anyone car e ? 1 7 A . Yes, let me fin i s h . 1 8 So whether the next 1 9 later his enzymes are normal , there is no 2 0 clinical effect. 2 1 Q. But if he takes three ounces of 2 2 alcohol daily, there will be other 2 3 physiologic effects? 2 4 A. No, I think the dose is probably 2 5 too low, because millions of people take GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 628 WATER PCB-SD0000030073 1 three ounces of alcohol a day with no ill 2 effect clinically . 3 Q . But there c e r t a inly is a level 4 the alcohol ingestion that you ' v e used, a I I 5 example, that would ultima t e 1 y result in 6 other physiologic effects from the enzyme 7 derangement? 8 A . Yes, sir. 9 Q. Similarly, with PCB's? 1 0 A. Well, I don't believe that's ever 1 1 beenoccurring.It certainly hasn't been -- 1 2 there have been no reports of other 1 3 physiological effects. 1 4 Q. Are you aware of tests to 1 5 determine other physiologic effects? 1 6 A. Well, there are liver function 1 7 tests, yes. 1 8 Q. I'm asking you whether you are 1 9 aware of the test that set out to determine 2 0 whether there was an effect from long-term 2 1 enzyme derangement as a result of PCB 2 2 exposure and the consequent physiologic 2 3 effects from that. 2 4 MR. COHEN : Try it again. Try it 2 5 again. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 629 WATER PCB-SD0000030074 1 (The requested portion of the 2 record read by the reporter) 3 A . Well, I d o n ' t know of any test 4 they could test for a particular enzyme 5 derangement. The liver has enormous amount 6 of functions in the metabolism of the body 7 that you test for liver function by checking 8 levels of various enzymes. Now, I don't know 9 how you test for the end result of enzyme 1 0 derangement with the exception of checking on 1 1 the levels of these enzymes in the blood . 1 2 BY MR. COHEN: 1 3 Q . I don't think you understood my 1 4 question. I was trying to determine whether 1 5 you were aware of either an epidemiological 1 6 study or a n animal toxicity study that was 1 7 done or formulated with the goal of 1 8 determining the effect of long-term liver 1 9 enzyme derangement from P C B exposure. 2 0 A . I think that the epidemiological 2 1 studies that have been done have been 2 2 morbidity studies and mortality studies . I 2 3 do not think, I do not recall any that went 2 4 into the mechanism of the morbidity or the 2 5 mechanism of the mortality . GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 630 WATER PCB-SD0000030075 1 Q . I s the answer to the question 2 asked whether you are aware of a n animal 3 toxicity study or a n epidemiological study 4 wherein they were seeking to determine the 5 other physiologic effects of long-term liver 6 enzyme derangement a s a result of PCB 7 exposure, that you know of no such tests? 8 A . Well, you are looking at 9 epidemiological studies to see if the people 1 0 develop clinical problems. The clinical 1 1 problems are the end result of enzymatic 1 2 derangement. You are looking at animals for 1 3 microscopic analysis of tissue of the liver, 1 4 which is also a result of enzymatic 1 5 derangement in animals, so I don't know how 1 6 you -- I don't know how to answer your 1 7 question. You are notlooking specifically 18 what a deranged enzyme does to you unless you 1 9 are looking for the pathological process that 2 0 follows it, so I thinkthat any 2 1 epidemiological study or any animal study has 2 2 the end result of giving you what occurs 2 3 during this, as a result ofthe enzymatic 2 4 derangement . I don't know if that ' s 2 5 answering your question, but I find it hard GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 631 WATER PCB-SD0000030076 1 to -- 2 MR. COHEN: I don't think it is, 3 but let in e have the last sentence back. 4 (The requested portion of the 5 record read by the reporter) 6 BY MR. COHEN: 7 Q. You have dealt with the 8 establishment of protocols or animal toxicity 9 studies . 1 0 A . Yes, s i r . 1 1 Q Do you recall ever sett i n g u p a 1 2 protocol wherein you set as the go a 1 o f the 1 3 study to determine the long-term physiologic 1 4 effects that flow from chronic derangement of 1 5 liver enzymes as a result of exposure to 1 6 PCB's? 1 7 THE WITNESS : That's a long 1 8 question which I will have to ask you to 1 9 repeat . 2 0 (The reques ted portion of the 2 1 record read by the reporter) 2 2 A . Well, what we -- when we set up a 2 3 protocol for animal studies , we set it up to 2 4 find out what deleterious a ction of PCB's in 2 5 the dose applied occurs in the animal. The GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 632 WATER PCB-SD0000030077 1 mechanisms from that really do not enter into 2 setting up of a protocol . What you want to 3 do is to find out do the animals get harm, 4 and you are not particularly concerned about 5 why they get the harm done; physiological 6 mechanism. 7 Q. Do you know of anybody who ever 8 set up an animal study with such a specified 9 protocol as I have just identified? 1 0 A . I don't know. The answer is no, I 1 1 don't recall. 1 2 Q. Do you know if anybody has ever 1 3 set up an epidemiological study with such a 1 4 specified protocol? 1 5 A . Now, when you say "specif i e d 1 6 protocol , " you mean you are setting up a 1 7 study on a group of workers that you as s u m e 1 8 have altered liver enzymes and that's the 1 9 purpose of this, or are you setting up an 2 0 epidemiological study to see if the workers 2 1 get sick from working with the compound? 2 2 Q. Well, Doctor, you would agree that 2 3 an epidemiological study would not be set up 2 4 to expose, intentionally expose people to a 2 5 compound to see if they got sick. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MIS S OUR I 633 WATER PCB-SD0000030078 X1 A . Well, you don't do that a t a n 2 epidemiological stage. You work with papers ; 3 you don't work w i 4 Q You d o 5 all? 6 A . No . 7 Q You s t 8 a history as a r e 9 their live s . I s 1 0 A . That ' s 1 1 Q So i t 1 2 structure an epidemiological study where you 1 3 established a protocol to look for a certain 1 4 specific ailment. 1 5 A. Look for -- 1 6 MR. MALIN: Object to the form of 1 7 the question. That's a different question. 1 8 A. Yes, you are saying -- 1 9 MR. MALIN: It employs the same 2 0 question. 2 1 A. (Continuing) You say -- the last 2 2 few words were, "Look for a specific 2 3 illness." Wasn't that what you said? 2 4 MR. MALIN: "Ailment," he said. 2 5 MR. COHEN: Ailment. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 634 WATER PCB-SD0000030079 1 A . What? 2 BY HR. COHEN: 3 Q Ailment . 4 A . Ailment . 5 0 Yes. 6 A . Well, you don't look for 7 i c s , you look for general h e a 8 individual, or deaths, so I do not know of 9 any epidemiological study where they may have 1 0 set up a study to find out if people had 1 1 chloracne. I think that's part of the 1 2 epidemiological study. I think that in the 1 3 epidemiological study, they may ask if the 1 4 person has liver problems. That would be 1 5 part of the epidemiological study, but when 1 6 they started out the epidemiological study, I 1 7 don't think they said, "We're going to start 1 8 doing this study just to find out if the 1 9 fella has had chloracne or not." 2 0 Q. You don't know of an 2 1 epidemiological study where they would be 2 2 able, through the vehicle of the 2 3 epidemiological study, to determine the 2 4 long-term physiologic effects of derangement 2 5 of liver enzymes associated with exposure to GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 635 WATER PCB-SD0000030080 1 PCB ' s ? 2 A . Well, the derangement of liver . 3 enzymes are part and parcel of what happens 4 to the person , and if you have a negative 5 epidemiological study , regardless of the -- 6 any documented or undocumented changes in the 7 liver enzymes, you've got a pretty relevant 8 study . 9 Q . In other words , when you say you 1 0 have a negative study, you are saying that 1 1 there is not a n excess of any particular 1 2 ailment to a statistically significant 1 3 degree? 1 4 A. If, by "ailment," you mean 1 5 altered, a pathological process, a 1 6 pathological process in the worker, an 1 7 illness in the worker, the clinical condition 1 8 in the worker - 1 9 Q Are you asking me? 2 0 A . I ' m asking what you said, yes. 2 1 Q Let me rephrase the question, 2 2 then. 2 3 MR . MALIN: Can we make it clear 2 4 whether or not you are using ailments, using 2 5 the word "ailment" and "changes in liver GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 636 WATER PCB-SD0000030081 1 enzymes" as th e s a mi e t h ing? 2 3 4 same. MR . COHEN: MR . M A L I N : No, I'm not No, the y ' r e not the I 5 (The re quested p o r tion of the 6 record read by the reporter) 7 MR . MALIN: That's what was 8 confusing me. 9 MR . COHEN: Is it c o n f u sing you, 1 0 sir? 1 1 A . Yes , sir. I don't know what you 1 2 mean by "ailment." 1 3 (The re quested p o r tion of the 1 4 record read by the reporter) 1 5 BY MR. COHEN: 1 6 Q. Are you aware of epidemiological 1 7 studies that have shown to a statistically 1 8 significant degree derangement of liver 1 9 enzymes as a result of exposure to PCB's? 20 - A. Yes, sir. 2 1 Q. Now, are you aware of any 2 2 epidemiological study wherein there was a 2 3 derangement of liver enzymes to a 2 4 statistically significant degree in this 2 5 population associated with exposure to PCB's GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 6 37 WATER PCB-SD0000030082 1 where they also found any particular ailment 2 or disease to a statistically significant 3 degree? 4 A . No, sir, all the -- 5 Q Please , just answer 6 A . No . 7 Q No. Now , d o you t a k e it fro m 8 that, that that study would be negative t o 9 say t h a t long-term derangement of liver 1 0 enzyme s associated with e x p o s u r e to P C B s 1 1 does n o t cause any parti c u 1 a r a ilment i n a 1 2 human being? 1 3 A. Well, that, you were giving me a 1 4 hypothetical study in which you have not 1 5 quantified how serious the derangement of the 1 6 liver enzymes were, you have not stated 1 7 whether or not this study was reproducible in 1 8 other studies, so I think that invalidates 1 9 one of the four tenets epidemiology, that you 2 0 have to have a study reproducible. 2 1 Certainly, people have found, done 2 2 studies of PCB workers and they found rectal 2 3 cancer in women in one group; four years 2 4 later, they found no excessive rectal 2 5 cancers . They'v e had prostate cancers of one GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MIS SOURI 638 WATER PCB-SD0000030083 1 group, none in another group, so they have 2 not been reproducible. 3 Q . So even though that these studies, 4 one study may show an excess of a certain 5 disease or ailment over the expected amount, 6 if it doesn't happen in another study, you 7 feel that that that first study is not valid? 8 MR. MALIN: Objection. That's not 9 what he said he said. That's one of the 1 0 tenets of epidemiology, not that he feels 1 1 that way. 1 2 BYMR. COHEN: 1 3 Q Well, I'm as king you; do you feel 1 4 it's not valid? 1 5 A . I can't hear that. 1 6 Q Do you feel it's not valid? 1 7 A . Yes, if it's not reproducibl e , 1 8 it's not valid, yes, si r . 1 9 Q Reproducible , does that mean that 2 0 you can t ake a differen t population and 2 1 duplicate the results? 2 2 A . Yes, sir, or a different worker on 2 3 the same population . 2 4 Q A different worker, you mean a 2 5 different scientist? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MIS SOURI 639 WATER PCB-SD0000030084 1 A . A different -- ye s . 2 Q . So the same p o p u 1 a t ion, the same 3 papers that you were talking a bout b e f ore, 4 some other scientist should b e a b 1 e to come 5 along a n d come up with the s a m e re suit ? 6 A . 0 n the same paper s , o r a 7 different, different group? 8 Q. No, same group. Isn't that what 9 reproducible means? 1 0 A. No, reproducible means, in my 1 1 definition, that your results are 1 2 reproducible or agree with a different study 1 3 on different groups to come up with the same 1 4 illnesses . 1 5 Q. But now you would be talking about 1 6 different people? 1 7 A. Yes. 1 8 Q. Different exposures, different 1 9 doses? 2 0 A. Conceivably, if they are all in 2 1 the 2 2 Q. All of that's going to affect the 2 3 validity of the reproducibility of the two 2 4 studies? 2 5 A . Yes. That ' s why epidemiology is GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS S OUR I 640 WATER PCB-SD0000030085 1 not a hundred percent accurate. 2 Q. Animal research can generally be 3 duplicated, can it not? 4 MR. COX: I object to the form of 5 the question. 6 BY MR. COHEN: 7 Q. Let's not use "duplicated." 8 Animal research can generally be 9 reproduced? 1 0 MR. MALIN: I'll object to the 1 1 form of that question, too. 1 2 A. Generally. 1 3 MR. COHEN: Everybody? 1 4 MR. COX: Do we have a 1 5 stipulation? Thank you. 1 6 A. I can give you two -- in some 1 7 instances, it is reproducible, but I could 1 8 give you two animal studies on 1260, Aroclor 1 9 1260. One, Kimbrough, found a large amount 2 0 of what she called liver cancers. Another 2 1 study did not show it. 2 2 BY MR. COHEN: 2 3 Q. Do you have an explanation for 2 4 that? 2 5 A. Well, one good explanation is the GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 641 WATER PCB-SD0000030086 1 interpretation of the slides interpreting 2 what you mean by a liver cancer , because 3 Kimbrough said, " I have found liver cancers 4 in very high percentage of these animals 5 after two-years' study," she gave us the 6 slides and we sent them to two cancer 7 experts , two different ones, one a t Nebraska, 8 one a t Northwestern, and they said, "We don't 9 believe they're cancerous . " 1 0 Q. So youthink Kimbrough waswrong? 1 1 A. I think so, yes. 1 2 Q. She read the slides wrong? 1 3 A. Well, I don't know if she read 1 4 them or she had somebody else at the 1 5 government read them. 16 Q. Did you ever inquirewhether she 1 7 read them? 1 8 A. I had one meeting with her, and I 1 9 don't know whether that came up. I mean, 2 0 she -- I thought she was sort of a 2 1 pathologist, but I don't know whether she had 2 2 another pathologist read it. I think she had 2 3 a t least two people read it. 2 4 Q. Did you meet with her after she 2 5 published her study wherein she found GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 642 WATER PCB-SD0000030087 1 evidence of cancer in rats from exposure to 2 PCB ' s ? 3 A. I don't know. I t h ink - - I don't 4 know when she published i t . I t w a s fin i s h e d , 5 because obviously, we got th e slid e s f r o m it, 6 and I don' t know if it w a s i n 19 7 3 that - - I 7 believe . I t was shortly b e f o r e I lef t ; I 8 don't know whether it was ' 7 3 or e a r 1 y '74. 9 Q Did you meet w i t h h e r ? 1 0 A . Beg pardon? 1 1 Q Did you meet w i t h h e r a f t e r you 1 2 knew what her results wer e ? 1 3 A . Yes. 1 4 Q And did you di s c u s s her 1 5 methodology with her? 1 6 A . Yes. 1 7 Q . And you didn't a s k her if s h e read 1 8 the slides? 1 9 A. I may have. I don't know whether 2 0 I did or not. I don't know whether she did 2 1 it or whether she had a full-time 2 2 government -- full-time pathologist read 2 3 them, or whe ther she read them in conjunction 2 4 with him. I don't know that. 2 5 Q. Well, let me ask you this. Did GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 643 WATER PCB-SD0000030088 1 anyone else meet with you at the time that 2 you met with Dr. Kimbrough? 3 A . Yes. 4 Q Who else w a s there ? 5 A . Th e r e was s o m e b o d y from Indus trial 6 Bio-Test, there was p e o p 1 e , I don' t know i f 7 Papageorge was there a t that time in the 8 environmental group. I know Ellenberg 9 Wheeler was. 1 0 Q You all met with Dr. Kimbrou gh 1 1 together? 1 2 A . Wh a t ? 1 3 Q You all met with Dr. Kimbrou gh 1 4 together? 1 5 A . Yes 1 6 Q I n the s a m e room? 1 7 A . She came down to St. Louis. 1 8 Q She b r o u g h t her slides? 1 9 A . No , that was done afterwards 2 0 That was, she -- we asked for her slide s . We 2 1 said, "We'1 11 give you Bio-Test slides, and 2 2 would you send us your slides," so we both 2 3 agreed . 2 4 Q . Had Bio-Test tested on the same 2 5 test protocols that Dr. Kimbrough had done? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS S OUR I 644 WATER PCB-SD0000030089 1 A. I don't know if she used two 2 species or not. I think she only used one 3 species , and Bio-Test used two species . I 4 think Kimbrough's was either in males or 5 females ; I don't know which we used, one 6 species , and Bio tested two species . 7 Q . Species , or sex? 8 A . I mean, I ' m sorry , sex. 9 0 . You used the same species? 1 0 A . Same species, both rats, an 1 1 used, I think , male and femal e and she 1 2 either male or female . 1 3 Q Did you use the same type of rat? 1 4 A . I can't remember that. I don't 1 5 know. 1 6 Q You agree with me that rats can be 1 7 bred in a way that you can breed out genetic 1 8 wildness? 1 9 A. Breed out what? 2 0 Q. Genetic wildness . 2 1 A. Well, yes, but I also could be 2 2 bred to increase the possibility of obtaining 2 3 malignancies. 2 4 Q . Well, I understand that, sir, but 25 you' 11agree with me that rats can be bred to GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 645 WATER PCB-SD0000030090 1 breed out genetic wildness, and in fact, rats 2 are bred that way. 3 A . Yes, sir. 4 Q. And rats are bred as laboratory 5 test animals. 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. And you can breed them to create 8 a n animal that has greater susceptibility a t 9 certain target organs or lesser 1 0 susceptibility at certain target organs. 1 1 A . Yes. It's not absolute, o f 1 2 course . 1 3 Q Well, we're dealing with living 1 4 things, dealing with science that's not 1 5 absolute , either ; you agree with th at? 1 6 A . Yes. 1 7 Q Do you know if you used the same 1 8 species and type of animal a t Indus trial 1 9 Bio-Test that Dr . Kimbrough used? 2 0 A . I don ' t know a t this d a t e 2 1 whether - 2 2 Q Did you know then? 2 3 A . Yes, but I don't recall what the 2 4 answer would be. 2 5 Q . Do I understand that Industrial GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MIS SOUR I 646 WATER PCB-SD0000030091 1 Bio-Test had previously done a similar test 2 and come up with different results than Dr. 3 Kimbrough? 4 A . Yes, sir. 5 Q . So you wanted to meet with Dr. 6 Kimbrough? 7 A. Yes, sir, or she wanted to meet 8 with us. I think it was mutual. 9 Q. Whose invitation was it? 1 0 A. I don't remember. 1 1 Q She came here? 1 2 A . She came down to S t . Louis, right 1 3 Q Where did you mee t ? 1 4 A . At Monsanto, 1 5 Q And you don't rec all whether she 1 6 told you that she read the slides herself? 17 A. No, sir. I don't think that was 1 8 very important, frankly. I'm sure she had an 1 9 adequate pathologist. You must remember, in 2 0 those days, they changed the definition of 21 what is aliver malignancy and what isn't 2 2 just about that time, so one person's 2 3 interpretation may have been different than 2 4 another person's interpretation. 2 5 Q. They changed it from what to what? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 647 WATER PCB-SD0000030092 1 A . Well they changed for the 2 criteria that would call, allow a particular 3 section to be called malignant, rather than a 4 hepatoma, which is just increased the liver 5 cells . 6 Q . Now, when you say "malignancy, " 7 does that mean that it is capable of becoming 8 metastatic disease? 9 A . Not necessarily , no, because these 1 0 were not metastatic, these were -- 1 1 Q. These were nonmetastatic lesions? 1 2 A . That ' s correct 1 3 Q In fact, have PCB's ever been, has 1 4 exposure to PCB's, either in an imal tests or 1 5 epidemiology, any type of test whatsoever, 1 6 has exposure to PCB's ever been associated 1 7 with a lesion that can become metastatic? 1 8 A. Well, I certainly know of no 1 9 epidemiological studies that show that PCB's 2 0 are associated with a higher incidence of 2 1 malignancy . I don' t know o f any of those 2 2 Q . I'm not asking you about 2 3 malignancy, I'm asking you about metastasis , 2 4 sir. 2 5 A. I don't know of any. I mean, in GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 648 WATER PCB-SD0000030093 1 animals, I don't know. I don't recall. 2 Q. You do agree that they have been 3 associated in animal studies with 4 malignancies? 5 A. Some workers believe it and some 6 don't believe it. 7 Q. Some scientists have published 8 studies in which they believe exposure to 9 PCB's in animals has caused malignancies? 1 0 A. Yes, sir, and some scientists have 1 1 also published material in which they state 1 2 there were nomalignancies. 1 3 Q. Do you know of a test where a 1 4 scientist in animals has said that the 1 5 malignancies were capable of being 1 6 metastatic? 1 7 A. I don't recall those reports. 1 8 Q. But to your knowledge, they may 1 9 exist? 2 0 A. They may and they may not. I 2 1 don't know. 2 2 Q. Is Dr. Kimbrough a pathologist? 2 3 A. Whether she's board certified in 24 pathology, I don't know, but I had thought 2 5 that was one of her early training in Germany GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS S OUR I 649 WATER PCB-SD0000030094 1 was in pathology. 2 Q . She's a medical doctor? 3 A. Yes, she is. 4 Q. Do you know if she has any other 5 specialties for which she is either certified 6 or eligible for certificat ion? 7 A. No. I don't kn ow whether she even 8 tried to be certified. 9 Q. Do you know if she had anything at 1 0 that time for which she wa s certified or 1 1 eligible? 1 2 A. What it is, did you say? 1 3 Q. Do you know if at the time you met 1 4 with her in and around 1973, she had any 1 5 s p e c i a 11 y for w h i c h she was e i t h e r c e r t i f i e d 1 6 or el i g i b 1 e ? 1 7 A . I do n o t know 1 8 Q . Is i t your re c o 11 e c t i o n t h at she 1 9 told you she had another path o 1 o g i s t read the 2 0 slide s ? 2 1 A . No , s i r , I do not know t h a t . I 2 2 don't recall that she s a id t h a t . 2 3 Q Do you know that i f , after you 2 4 took possessi on o f her s 1 i d e s and had them 2 5 reviewed by other pathologists , she reviewed GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 650 WATER PCB-SD0000030095 1 them , herself, again? 2 A . I do not know that, and I believe 3 that whole procedure went on after I left the 4 company. 5 Q. Did you ever follow up on it? 6 A. I was gone from Monsanto. 7 Q. Well, I know you were gone, but 8 did you ever follow up, intellectual 9 curiosity or otherwise? 1 0 A. I do not know whether she 1 1 re-reviewed her slides or not. 1 2 Q. Do you know if she had any other 1 3 scientist review the slides? 1 4 A. I do not know that, either. 1 5 Q. Was her study reviewed by peer 1 6 reviewers? 1 7 A . I don't know that t either. 1 8 Q Who was your succ e s sor, again? 1 9 A . Dr . George Rausch 2 0 Q . Did he follow up o n this? 2 1 A . I don't know. 2 2 Q . You never discuss e d it with him 2 3 A. Never did. 2 4 MR. COHEN : Off the record. 2 5 (Discussion off the record . ) GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MIS SOURI 651 WATER PCB-SD0000030096 1 BY MR. COHEN: 2 Q A s far a s we k now , Dr. Rausch is 3 still with us, a 1 i v e in S t . Louis? 4 A . That is c o r r e c t . i 5 MR . M A LIN : What's your other 6 question? Did he retire from Monsanto? 7 THE WITNE SS : Yes, sir. 8 MR . MALIN : Is he retired from 9 Monsanto? 1 0 THE WITNESS : He retired from 1 1 Monsanto at the age of 6 6 or 67 , and I don 1 2 know, I think that was about two years ago 1 3 three years ago. 1 4 BY MR. COHEN: 1 5 Q Do you know the phrase "low-dose 1 6 extrapolation" 1 7 A . I c a n ' t hear you. 1 8 Q Do you know the phrase, "low-dose 1 9 extrapolation" 2 0 A . No , I do not 2 1 Q . You v e never heard of it in 2 2 association wi t h animal studies? 2 3 A . No, sir. 2 4 MR . COHEN: Why don't we break off 2 5 a t this time f or lunch GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MIS SOURI 652 WATER PCB-SD0000030097 1 MR. MALIK: Okay . Fine with me. 2 BY MR. COHEN: 3 Q . Oh, before we break off, just so 4 that we're clear on the record, while we 5 still have Kelly 2 4 , on the record, Doctor , 6 could you identify Page 2 of that document? 7 A. Page 2 of the document is a 8 memorandum dated October the 21st, 1968, from 9 Wheeler to Richard, and titled 1 0 nated Biphenyls in the 1 1 " with copies to Kelly, Tucker 1 2 o n , Bergen and Johnson. 1 3 MR . COHEN: Thank you, s i r . 1 4 THE WITNESS: Beg pardon ? 1 5 MR . COHEN: Thank you. 1 6 (Luncheon re cess) 1 7 BY MR. COHEN: 1 8 Q. Doctor, we were talking about 1 9 animal studies, and let me ask you this. To 2 0 your knowledge, does the EPA or any other 2 1 federal regulatory agency rely upon the 2 2 results of animal studies in making 2 3 decisions? 2 4 MR. MALIN: Object to the form of 2 5 the question. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 653 WATER PCB-SD0000030098 1 Answer the question . 2 A. I do not know what they rely on. ' i 3 BY MR. COHEN: ! I 4 Q. Is that something that's outside j 5 the scope of your knowledge? i 6 A. No, but government decisions are, 7 the reasons for government decisions are. 8 I'm not privy to them. I don't know what 9 they rely on and how much they rely on animal 1 0 studies, how much they rely on media, how 1 1 much they rely on public opinion. 1 2 Q. Let me ask you this. Have you 1 3 ever seen any documents, either while you 1 4 were Medical Director for Monsanto or 1 5 subsequent thereto, wherein the EPA or any 1 6 other governmental agency expressed any view 1 7 of the applicability of animal research 1 8 regarding the toxicity of PCB's to ailments 1 9 in human beings? 2 0 MR. MALIN: Object to the form of 2 1 the question. 2 2 Answer the question, if you think 2 3 you understand it, Doctor . 2 4 THE WITNESS: I got interrupted. 2 5 Would you repeat it? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 654 WATER PCB-SD0000030099 1 (Record read.) 2 MR. MALIN: And I objected to the 3 form of the question. 4 A. There have been animal studies 5 quoted in the NIOSH documents, N-I-O-S-H. 6 How much they relied on that,, I don't know, 7 but they quoted them as part o f their belief 8 i n , when they set standards. The EPA, I do 9 not know. Somebody, some group in the 1 0 government stated that PCB ' s were an a n i m a 1 1 1 carcinogen and could be cons i d e r e d a human 1 2 carcinogen 1 3 Q Do you agree with that vi e w ? 1 4 A . I agree with part of the vie w . I 1 5 do not, I do not agree with the fact that 1 6 it's a human carcinogen. 1 7 Q. You agree that it is a proven 1 8 animal carcinogen? 1 9 A . It depends, again. on the do 2 0 depends on -- you can -- you could take 21 there are animal studies that - - take 2 2 saccharin : They use five per cent of t h 2 3 diet, of the human diet, in saccharin, so 2 4 they get two percent animals . Well, by 2 5 s omebody ' s definition, that could be a GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 655 WATER PCB-SD0000030100 1 carcinogen, an animal carcinogen. Five 2 percent of the diet is a completely ; I 3 irrelevant dosage, so I would not agree with j 4 that. I think that there are certain 5 compounds that no matter how much you give, 6 you will not get a malignancy. There are 7 certain compounds that, in animals, if you go 8 high enough and long enough , you can get 9 cancer . Now, what the definition of a human 1 0 carcinogen without dosage levels is -- I 1 1 don't, I don't accept that type of thinking. 1 2 Q. The question I'm asking you, 1 3 Doctor, is whether you agree that PCB's have 1 4 been proven to be a carcinogen in animals. 1 5 MR. MALIN: Objection to the form 1 6 of the question. 1 7 Answer the question. 1 8 THE WITNESS : Beg pardon ? 1 9 MR. MALIN: Objection to the form 2 0 of the question . Give me a -- 2 1 A. A 1it1e -- okay. 2 2 MR. MALIN: - - a little time 2 3 before you answer the question, in case I 2 4 want to object to the form. 2 5 MR. COHEN: Since all your GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 656 WATER PCB-SD0000030101 1 objections are to the form, why don't you i--1 i--1 2 just say for the r e c o r d , " Objection" We 3 know i t ' s an o b j e c t i on to form, and i f y O u 4 have a n o b j e c tio n on any o ther basis - y o u can 5 state i t , and that w ay, we can speed th i s u p . 6 MR . MALIN : Fair enough. F a i r 7 enough. 8 MR. COHEN: And the doctor can 9 continue with his testimony without 1 0 interruption. 1 1 Can I have the last question read 1 2 back before the last objection to the form of 1 3 the question? 1 4 (The requested portion of the 1 5 record read by the reporter) 1 6 A. According to some studies, they 1 7 have been, and according to other studies, 1 8 they have not. When you are talking about 1 9 PCB's, the only one was 1260. You can't 2 0 include all PCB's under that statement. 2 1 BY MR. COHEN: 2 2 Q. That ' s A r o c1o r 1 2 6 0. 2 3 A. Yes. 2 4 Q. Are you aware of any studies that 2 5 have studied the dielectric fluid k nown a s GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 6 57 WATER PCB-SD0000030102 1 Pyranol? 2 A . Yes -3 HR. MALIN: Objection. Answer the 4 question. 5 A . Yes. 6 BY MR. COHEN: 7 Q . Animal toxicity studies that have 8 studied Pyranol? 9 A. Yes. Which Pyranol? 1 0 Q. Any Pyranol . 1 1 A. Yes. 1 2 Q. Okay, which Pyranol was studied? 1 3 A. I thought it was Pyranol PPR or 1 4 something like that. We ran an acute test on 15 it . 1 6 Q . A who? 17 A. Beg pardon? 1 8 Q. You ran a who? A what? 1 9 A. An acute test on Pyranol , one of 2 0 the PEER-an-ols (Phonetic), PIE-ran-ols 2 1 (Phonetic). 2 2 Q. Your firm, Monsanto, ran a n acute 2 3 toxicity test on a Pyranol liquid? 2 4 A. That ' s correct . 2 5 Q. When was that done? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 658 WATER PCB-SD0000030103 1 A . Sometime before 1970, to the best 2 of my recollection, but I don't know the 3 date. 4 Q. Who did the test? 5 A . Either Scientific Associates or 6 Younger Laboratories in St. Louis. 7 Q. You used them before you used IBT? 8 A. Well, we used them for acute 9 testing. We didn't use IBT for acute 1 0 testing, we used them for subchronic and 1 1 chronic testing. 1 2 Q . But hadn't -- wasn't your 1 3 experience with Scientific and Younger 1 4 substantially -- didn't that substantially 1 5 predate the IBT testing? 1 6 A . Well, y es, but there were two 1 7 different types of laboratories, two 1 8 different types -- 1 9 Q Doctor , all I ' m trying to do is 2 0 get a time frame. If the answer is "No, we 2 1 used them without regard to time but for 2 2 different tests," that ' s fine, but I ' m just 2 3 trying to find out the time frame. 2 4 A . We used them before and during the 2 5 times we u sed IBT. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST . LOUIS , MIS SOURI 659 WATER PCB-SD0000030104 1 Q. Thank you. 2 Do you know when this test was 3 done relative to the time that you were doing 4 PCB tests with IB T ? 5 A . I would have to guess. I do not 6 know. 7 Q What was the acute toxicity test? 8 Was this to find a n LD- 5 0? 9 A . Yes, sir. 1 0 Q What was t h e LD-5 0 ? Do you 1 1 recall? 1 2 A. Around four grams per kilo. 1 3 Q. Is that more or less than a pure 1 4 PCB ? 1 5 A. About the same. 1 6 Q. And compared to what PCB? Which 1 7 Aroclor? 1 8 A. Probably 1254 or 1248. I'm not 1 9 sure. 2 0 Q. Is 1254 and 1248 more, or less 2 1 toxic than 1260? 2 2 A . Yes, they are less toxic. 2 3 Q Less toxic? 2 4 A . Less toxic . 2 5 Q Than 1260? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 660 WATER PCB-SD0000030105 1 A . Eeg pardon? 2 Q . Than 1 2 6 0 ? 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 Q. And you say you thought it was a 5 PPR? 6 A . I thought that w a s it 7 Q What does PPR me a n to you, sir? 8 A . I don't k n o w what i t means 9 Q Well, was PPR, as you unde r s t o o d 1 0 it, their specification or product name, such 1 1 as Aroclor 1260 is one of your product names? 1 2 A. I don't know. I just remember 1 3 seeing a label, and I thought it was Pyranol 1 4 PPR. 1 5 Q. What animals were used in that 1 6 test? 1 7 A. Rats. 1 8 Q. Did you order the test done? 1 9 A. Either I or somebody in the 2 0 department, yes, sir. 2 1 Q. But it wasduring your tenure a s 2 2 Medical Director? 2 3 A. Yes, sir. 2 4 MR. COHEN: Have you ever produced 2 5 that test, Mr . M a 1in ? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MISSOURI 661 WATER PCB-SD0000030106 1 MR. MALIN: I don ' t know . I'd . 2 have to check. I j 3 MR . COHEN: All right , I'll make a 4 r e q u e s t at t h i s time -- and make a note o f 5 the r e q u e s t , i f you w o u Id , please , i n a 6 s e p a r ate index -- for all toxicity test S , 7 a n i m a 1 toxicity tests done by Monsanto 8 Chemi cal Company on P y r a n o1 , P-y-r-a-n- o- 1 . 9 BY MR . COHEN: 1 0 Q. Did you ever do any tests on 1 1 Inerteen? 12 A I don't recall We may or may 1 3 not. 1 4 Q Same question for Inerteen, 1 5 I-n-e-r- t-e-e-n: Is that the only tests that 1 6 y o u are aware of, animal toxicity tests that 1 7 you are aware have been done on Pyranol? 1 8 A . Yes, sir. 1 9 0 . Did I ask you this before? Are 2 0 you a w a r e of any animal toxicity tests done 2 1 on mon o- , di-, t ri- or tetrachlorobenzenes? 2 2 A . By anybody, anyplace? 2 3 Q Anybody, anyplace, anytime. 2 4 A . Yes, I think Henry Smith did some 2 5 on them. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 662 WATER PCB-SD0000030107 1 Q. And that's in theliterature that 2 you had available in your office? 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 Q. Did you everorder any such tests 5 done? 6 A . Not that I recall . 7 Q , What caused to you dothe test on 8 the P y r a n o 1 liquid? 9 A. I don't recall. I t could have 1 0 been freight classification. i t could have 1 1 been somebody asked for it. I don't know. 1 2 Q. So you determined a n LD - 5 0 and you 1 3 never did anymore tests? 1 4 A. Well, there was a package that we 1 5 were doing at that time : We would do skin 1 6 absorption, we would d o LD- 5 0 , w e would do 1 7 ocular testing , drop i t in the eye , and we 1 8 would do saturated ambient temperature -- 1 9 saturated atmosphere at ambient temperatures. 2 0 Q. You wanted to determine how much 21 the atmosphere could hold at elevated 2 2 temperatures? 2 3 A. No, not elevated, ambien t . 2 4 Q. A t ambient. I'm sorry, so room 2 5 temperature? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 663 WATER PCB-SD0000030108 1 A . At room temperature. 2 Q. And that would be before it would 3 turn into droplets's? 4 A . Well, I don't know how they 5 dispersed it, whether they dispe r s e d it as a 6 spray or just i n open containers i n the 7 testing cage. I don't know how they did 8 that. 9 Q . So you don't know if it was misted 1 0 or otherwise? 1 1 A. I don't know whether it was 1 2 misted. I don't believe it would be misted. 1 3 Q. Who designed the protocol for that 1 4 series of tests? 1 5 A . I thought i t w a s sort of a 1 6 standard procedure that m o st acute test i n g 1 7 laboratories did . I don ' t know who des i g n e d 18 it. 1 9 Q. You didn't have any input into its 2 0 design? 2 1 A. Well, I'm sure I told them what we 2 2 wanted , but a s far a s designing of the test, 2 3 no, I didn't. 2 4 Q. Do you know of any other subacute 2 5 chronic toxicity tests done on Pyranols or GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 664 WATER PCB-SD0000030109 0 3 (!) n Inerteen? 2 A . At one time, West i n g h o u s e did s 3 work on Inerteen. I saw a c o p y of that a t 4 one of these depo sitions, an d I don ' t know 5 whether -- how f a r along t h a t was a s far a s 6 subacute is c o n c e r n e d . I t h o u g h t i t was a 7 relative 1y acute testing. I h ad no thing t o 8 do with i t . 9 Q Do you know anybo dy who' s ever 1 0 done e pi demiologi cal studies u sing Pyranol t 1 1 exposure s to P y r a n o 1 s ? 1 2 A . Yes, s omebody at G E did i t . 1 3 Q You a r e aware of GE test s ? 1 4 A . I don' t know if i t ' s GE -- I me a n , 1 5 it was a group at GE, Medica 1 Department, did 1 6 an epidemiologica 1 study on w o r k e r s expose d 17 to Pyranol, yes. 1 8 Q On GE workers exp o s e d to Pyranols? 1 9 A . That's correct . 2 0 Q Are you familiar w i t h those 2 1 results? 2 2 A. Yes, they didn't show any ill 2 3 effect, any association of illness with 2 4 workers. 2 5 Q. Do you know how to design a n GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 665 WATER PCB-SD0000030110 1 animal study? 2 A. Beg pardon? 3 Q . Do you know how to design a n 4 animal toxicology study? 5 MR. M A LIN : Objection . Answer the 6 question. 7 MR. COHEN : Wait, strike that. 8 BY MR. COHEN: 9 Q. Do you know how to design an 1 0 animal toxicity study? 1 1 A. As of now, or as of what time 1 2 frame? 1 3 Q. Well, did you ever know how to do 1 4 one? 1 5 A. Certainly, I did. 1 6 Q. Tell me how you go about designing 1 7 a n animal toxicity study. 1 8 A . Well, you decide on what the use 1 9 of the product is going to be, what the 2 0 exposure levels are going t o be, presumed 21 exposure levels, the type of exposure, and 2 2 whether the exposure is going to be 2 3 short-term, long-term, inhalation , or oral, 2 4 or determineal, so they are all, any number 2 5 of factors that go into designing the test. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 666 WATER PCB-SD0000030111 1 Q. Do you start off with a hypothesis 2 of what you want to prove? 3 A I don' t know i f you -- the term i s 4 what y O u w a n t to prove ; i t ' s w h a t you want t o 5 find o u t . 6 Q Okay, if you s a t up something that 7 you wan t to deter mine t h r o ugh y our tests, 8 that i s , t h at an e x p o s u r e of t h is compound, 9 at this d o s e , t h r o u g h t h i s mode of absorption 1 0 for t h i s p e r i o d o f time w i 11 or will not 1 1 result in " X " ? 1 2 A That's true. That i s correct. 1 3 Q Is t h a t how y o u do i t ? 1 4 A . Beg pardon? 1 5 Q. Is that how you do it? 1 6 A. Yes, except if you are doing a 1 7 test that would come under government 1 8 regulations, if you were doing a test for a 1 9 food additive or an indirect food additive, 20 then thereare other criteria that have to be 2 1 carried out. 22 Q. Now,we're nottalking about 2 3 foods, here, so -- 2 4 A. Okay. 2 5 Q. -- we can put that aside. PCB's, GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 667 WATER PCB-SD0000030112 1 to you r k n o w 1 e d g e , were n ever f o o d a ddi t i v e s ? 2 A . Beg y our par d o n ? 3 Q P C B ' s to your k n o w 1 e d g e were never 4 f o o d a ddi t i v e s ? 5 A . Never were, n o 6 Q First thing y o u said i s , i s you 7 decide o n a use. 8 A . Yes. 9 Q What did you m e a n by that 1 0 A . Well, if the s tuff i s going to be 1 1 used w her e it comes in c o n t a c t with p e o pie in 1 2 an ope n ope ration, that ' s one u s e . I f it's 1 3 going t o b e , i f there ' s g o i n g t o be exp o s u r e 1 4 at e 1 e v a t e d temperatures, that' s the a n other 1 5 use. If it's going to be intermittent 1 6 exposures or continuous exposures, that's a 1 7 third use. There are any number of 1 8 variables . 1 9 Q. You agree, then, that the purpose 2 0 in conducting the animal toxicity test is to 2 1 test a hypothesis of the effect of the 2 2 substance on humans? 2 3 A. I don't understand your use of the 2 4 word "hypothesis" in thisparticular case. 2 5 You are testing it to find out what a safe GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST . LOUIS, MIS SOURI 668 WATER PCB-SD0000030113 1 level of the material may be or what its 2 inherent toxicity is that you compare it with 3 other compounds that you know have beenused 4 without ill effects . 5 Q. My point , sir, the question was, 6 with respect to animal toxicity tests , you 7 agree, then, that the purpose of the animal 8 toxicity test is to establish safe levels of 9 use in humans? 1 0 A . Yes. 1 1 Q. Do you believe that there is 1 2 scientific validity to such testing? 1 3 A. Well, there's a scientific use, 1 4 usefulness of it. 1 5 Q. Tell me what that is. 1 6 A. Well, as we went over it this 1 7 morning, it gives you a relative toxicity of 1 8 this particular compound vis-a-vis other 1 9 compounds that you know have been used in 2 0 industry. It also may show you a target 2 1 organ that could be correlated with what 2 2 clinical experience have been, has been in 2 3 the workplace. 2 4 Q. And that's something that happened 2 5 to occur in PCB studies? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MISSOURI 669 WATER PCB-SD0000030114 1 A . Yes. 2 Q. That you identified a target 3 organ , to-wit, the liver , which has proven to 4 be the same target organ in clinical studies . 5 A . No, that isn't correct . That 6 isn't what I said. 7 Q . Tell me what you said. 8 A. Well, in clinical studies, we have 9 seen acute chemical hepatitis from inhalation 1 0 of PCB's at elevated temperatures. They, the 1 1 target organ there was the, was the liver. 1 2 The target organ in animals, both acute and 13 chronic, also was the liver. There have been 1 4 no clinical studies that showed, 1 5 epidemiological studies that showed harm to 1 6 the liver in industrial workers. 1 7 Q. Okay, now, you threw in two 18 factors, there. You said inhalation studies 1 9 of PCB's at elevated temperatures. What, in 2 0 your mind, is the significance of the issue 2 1 of the mode of absorption being inhalation? 2 2 A. What is its significance? 2 3 Q. Yes. 2 4 A. Well, it's a route of exposure if 2 5 you have, if you have the material a t GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 670 WATER PCB-SD0000030115 -1 elevated temperatures, or in a confined 2 space, you'll get more exposure , and the more 3 exposure you get -- 4 Q. I think you misunderstood my 5 question, Doctor. I was asking you about -- 6 MR. M A LIN : I ' m going to object 7 because this line of inquiry was covered in 8 the last deposition and we've been over the 9 freon studies, and the two cases where there 1 0 was jaundice developed as a result of 1 1 inhalation. We went over those, I think, 1 2 half a day. 1 3 MR. COHEN: We're talking now 1 4 about the formulation of studies and the 1 5 comparability of studies. We're not talking 1 6 about -- 1 7 MR. MALIN: Answer the question . 1 8 BY MR. COHEN: 1 9 Q ' I ' m asking you the s i g n i f i c a n c e of 2 0 the mode o f a b sorption, which i s i n h a 1 a t i o n . 2 1 What was the s ignificance of the mode o f 2 2 absorption? 2 3 A . The significance of the mode of 2 4 absorption i s that it gives you the basis for 2 5 telling people how to avoid such exposure . GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MIS SOURI 67 1 WATER PCB-SD0000030116 1 Q. Do you feel that the mode of 2 absorption had any effect on the outcome of 3 the study? 4 A . Well, certainly , it did. 5 Q. What was the effect? 6 A . If you got enough of the material 7 absorbed, or if you got enough of the 8 material generated by elevating the 9 temperature of the material, you would absorb 1 0 more of the compound. 1 1 Q. I was -- I haven't gotten to the 1 2 elevation of temperature yet, sir. 1 3 A. I thought we were talking about 1 4 that. 1 5 Q. I'm talking about inhalation as 1 6 the mode of absorption as distinguished from 1 7 ingestion by eating; eating it or absorption 1 8 through skin? Dermal absorption? 1 9 A. I can tell you this, then, that 2 0 there is no worker exposure at room 2 1 temperature by inhalation. The vapor 2 2 pressure of the PCB's is too low to cause a 2 3 hazardous, or cause a condition which 2 4 absorption could occur. 2 5 Q. It's simply not volatile enough to GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MIS SOURI 672 WATER PCB-SD0000030117 1 be inhaled? 2 A . That ' s correct . 1 3 Q Fine. Let's talk about ! 4 inhalation sir. Is there a n y significance 5 to inhalation a s the mode of absorption a s 6 distinguished from ingestion or determineal 7 absorption? 8 A. The action of the compound on the 9 body is, to my opinion, the same as, no 1 0 matter how you getthe material into the 1 1 body. 1 2 Q. Fine. And the elevated 1 3 temperature is, as you just discussed, 1 4 significant because there is no inhalation 1 5 absorption at room temperature because of the 1 6 lack of volatility of the material? 17 A. Except if you are in a quite 1 8 confined space and in there for a long period 1 9 of time. 2 0 Q. So in a very confined space, the 2 1 fumes would be sufficient to cause some 2 2 absorption? 2 3 A . May be,- yes. 2 4 Q . Maybe ; okay. How elevated need 2 5 the temperature be before the -- before you GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 67 3 WATER PCB-SD0000030118 1 increase the risk? 2 MR . MA LIN : Objection. Give him 3 Boyle's law. 4 BY MR. COHEN: 5 Q . Give me Boyle ' s law, or if you 6 prefer , give me your answer . 7 A . I'll give the answer. 8 Q . Good. 9 A. First of all, you said increased 1 0 risk. I do not accept the fact that there is 1 1 any risk at ambient temperatures. There is a 1 2 risk if you -- depending on which Aroclor you 1 3 use. The more highly chlorinated ones are 1 4 not as volatile as the lower chlorinate 1 5 ones, and I cannot give you an absolute 1 6 figure of 220 or 300 that would start 1 7 constituting a risk. I don't know that. 1 8 Q. So as I understand your testimony, 1 9 the route of absorption, that is, whether 2 0 it's dermal absorption, ingestion or 2 1 inhalation, is not significant in the effect 2 2 of the com pound on the organism? 2 3 A . I would say in general,, yes, but 2 4 it may be that you may have to have different 2 5 levels of exposure . I think that inhalation GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 674 WATER PCB-SD0000030119 1 at elevated temperatures would probably be, 2 could constitute more of a possibility of 3 absorption than skin contact . I may be wrong 4 on that, but that ' s just a n impression I 5 have. 6 Q. Is it readily absorbed through 7 whole skin? 8 A . I don't know how readily you mean 9 by "readily", but it can be absorbed if you 1 0 put a -- it can be absorbed, but I've seen 1 1 dozens of cases where people have had 1 2 good-size amounts that were wiped off 1 3 without -- with no ill e f f e c t at all. 1 4 Q Is the rate of a b sorption through 1 5 whole skin equal to or great er than the rate 1 6 of absorption through broken skin? 1 7 A. Through -- 1 8 Q . Broken skin. 1 9 A. I would think it's more absorbed 2 0 through broken skin . I don't think that1' s 2 1 been tested. 2 2 Q . You don ' t know if any test -- has 2 3 it ever been t e s t e d on burned skin? 2 4 A . Not that I know of 2 5 Q . Are the only tests that you are GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 67 5 WATER PCB-SD0000030120 1 aware of on dermal absorption through whole 2 skin? 3 A . That ' s correct . 4 Q And they are animal tests? 5 A . Yes, sir. I I 6 Q Do you feel that those results are 7 applicable to human exposure? 8 MR. MALIN: Objection. Answer the 9 question . 1 0 THE WITNESS : Hmm ? 1 1 MR. MALIN: I said objection, but 1 2 answer the question, if you can. 1 3 THE WITNESS: Oh. 1 4 A. Do I think the animal -- 1 5 BY MR. COHEN: 1 6 Q. Tests regarding dermal absorption 1 7 rates are applicable to humans. 1 8 A. Well, they're applicable, but I do 1 9 not think they are a hundred percent 2 0 applicable because animal skin is not the 2 1 same a s human skin is concerned . 2 2 Q. What would you do to determine the 2 3 degree of applicability , Doctor? 2 4 A. I don't believe you could do that 2 5 because I don't agree with human GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 67 6 WATER PCB-SD0000030121 1 experimentation, and that's the only way you 2 could find out. , 3 Q. So short of experimenting with 4 humans, you could not develop a hundred j ! 5 percent correlation, in your mind? 6 A . That ' s correct . 7 Q. Are you aware of any studies that 8 compare the rates of absorption in animal 9 toxicity studies with observed absorption 1 0 rates in humans in epidemiological studies? 1 1 A . No, sir. 1 2 Q. Are you aware of any study that 1 3 has, epidemiological study that has looked 14 into theissue of rates of absorption through 1 5 whole skin? 1 6 A. No, sir. 1 7 Q. So it would be fair to say there's 1 8 simply no science on that point? 1 9 A. No science known to me. I don't 2 0 know. 2 1 Q. Doyou think that you can base any 2 2 inferences from animal data on the increased 2 3 risk of contracting disease -- and in this 2 4 case, let's talk about cancer -- in humans 2 5 from any animal toxicity study on any GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 67 7 WATER PCB-SD0000030122 *-L chemical ? 2 MR . M A L I N : 0 b j e c t i on. I f you 3 think you under stand t h a t q u e s t i o n , t r y to 4 answer it. 5 THE W I TNE S S : Well, give it back 6 to me and I'll try to u n d e r s t a n d it. 7 (The r e quested portion of the 8 r e c o r d read by the rep o r t e r ) 9 A. Well , I th i n k there is a c e r t a i n 1 0 amount of, of r e 1 i a n c e , but I don't k n o w what 1 1 percentage that is, b e c a u s e as I said 1 2 earlier, that animals V ary in species, they 1 3 vary in the results o f animal 1 4 experimentation . Whe r e the human anim a 1 fits 1 5 into that, in the vast majority of cases we 1 6 don't know. There are some cases, as I 1 7 mentioned earlier, where the dosage in 1 8 animals, where you develop cancer, is 1 9 completely irrelevant to any possible 2 0 exposure that a human may have. 2 1 Q. The dosage issue, the dosage issue 2 2 aside , for the moment, would you agree that 2 3 the fact that animals can be bred to 2 4 eliminate genetic wildness enables you to 2 5 have a higher level of predictability from GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 67 8 WATER PCB-SD0000030123 1 animal studies than you would have from 2 epidemiological s tudie s in humans? 3 MR . MA LIN : Objection. 4 A . No , sir. 5 MR . MALIN: I don't understand 6 that question . I f you think you unders tand 7 it, go ahead. 8 MR . COHEN: He already answered 9 "No, sir." 1 0 A. (Continuing) As I understand it, 1 1 you are saying that you have these 1 2 hypothetical animals that are bred not to 1 3 have cancers without a severe insult. Is 1 4 that what you are talking about, genetic 1 5 wildness? 1 6 BY MR. COHEN: 1 7 Q. No, when I speak of genetic 1 8 wildness, we would agree that human beings, 1 9 unlike purebred dogs or horses, thoroughbred 2 0 horses or whatever, we know very little about 2 1 the genetic makeup of one human being who 2 2 mates with another human being and produces 2 3 an offspring, and because human beings are 2 4 not bred, but rather, choose to do their own 2 5 breeding for whatever indiscriminate reasons GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 67 9 WATER PCB-SD0000030124 1 that they choose, the genetic pool in any 2 individual human being is going to differ 3 wildly from the next human being. 4 A . Yes, we agree to that. 5 MR. COX: I object to the 6 question, if that's a question -- 7 MR . COHEN: He agree s w i t h me. 8 MR . COX : -- or stat erne n t , 9 whatever it is , I o b j ect to tha t s eries of -- 1 0 MR . COHEN: Well, I don 't know the 1 1 basis of your action. The wit n ess a g r e s s 1 2 with me. 1 3 MR . COX : I object t o i t as to 1 4 form. 1 5 MR . COHEN: Fine. 1 6 MR . COX : And I obje c t to your 1 7 making stateme n t s to the witnes s . 1 8 MR . COHEN: You've m a d e your 1 9 objection. 2 0 MR. MALIN: I join in that 2 1 objection. 2 2 BY MR. COHEN: 2 3 Q . Now, we agree that with the 2 4 concept that humans are genetically wild; 2 5 that is, there is not a great deal of genetic GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MIS SOURI 680 WATER PCB-SD0000030125 1 similarity between humans other than, 2 perhaps , identical twins. 3 A . Well, there are genetic ;I I 4 differences between the black race and the 5 white , the Caucasian race. There are ethnic 6 groups that are genetically different. 7 Jewish people may have a tendency towards 8 some diseases that Irish people may not have. 9 Q . Right , such a s Tay-Sachs . 1 0 A . Right. 1 1 Q . And other Eastern Europeans may 1 2 also share the same genetic predisposition 1 3 towards Tay-Sachs disease; right? And blacks 1 4 may share a predisposition towards sickle 1 5 cell anemia that whites may not necessarily 1 6 have, although certain whites from Eastern 1 7 areas of the world have also been found to 1 8 have genetic predisposition to sickle cell 1 9 anemia; correct? 2 0 A. I lost the last half of your 2 1 discourse . What was the last two sentenses 2 2 you said? 2 3 Q. Again, I'm trying to establish, 2 4 sir, of -- 2 5 MR. COX: Again, I object. It is GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 681 WATER PCB-SD0000030126 1 a discourse, and I object to it. 2 MR. MALIN: I join. 3 BY MR. COHEN: 4 Q . All I'm trying to establish , sir, 5 is that we can agree that while there are 6 certain characteristics that are linked to 7 certain categories of humans, for the most 8 part, human beings tend not t o b e genetically 9 similar one to the o t h e r . 1 0 A . I agree with that 1 1 0 . Whereas a n i m a 1 s c a n b e bred to be 1 2 genetically similar one to the other . 1 3 A . I agree with that . 1 4 Q. And we can identify certain 1 5 characteristic genes in animals and breed the 1 6 animal for an increased likelihood of that 1 7 characteristic or a decreased likelihood of 1 8 that characteristic. 1 9 A. I don't know about that. 2 0 Q. Well, you do know about Mendel's 2 1 laws. 2 2 A . Yes. 2 3 Q. And you would agree that animals 2 4 can be bred to enhance certain 2 5 characteristics or decrease them? GOREREPORTING COMPANY- ST. LOUIS , MIS S OUR I 682 WATER PCB-SD0000030127 1 A . Yes. 2 Q. Now, considering genetic wildness, j 3 do you -- 4 A. Considering genetic -- l 5 Q . Considering this characteristic 6 that distinguishes humans from laboratory 7 animals, would you agree or disagree that you 8 can have a higher degree of predictability of 9 result in animal tests than in human tests? 1 0 MR. MALIN: Objection. 1 1 Answer the question. 1 2 A. Predictability of what kind of 1 3 results? 1 4 BY MR. COHEN: 1 5 Q. Well, let's go back to what we 1 6 were talking about before, establishing a 1 7 hypothesis and trying to establish and prove 1 8 it through a toxicity test. 1 9 A. Okay. Now, what's the question? 2 0 Q. Would you agree that you have a 2 1 greater degree of predictability in 2 2 establishing and proving that hypothesis 2 3 through animal tests , rather than humans? 2 4 A. Not necessarily , because the 2 5 compound may be metabolized differently, the GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 683 WATER PCB-SD0000030128 1 absorption may be different by humans than it 2 is by animals, no matter how they are bred. 3 Q. And the only way to determine that 4 rate of absorption, as we discussed this 5 morning, is by comparing the metabolites in 6 the blood and the urine? 7 A . Yes, sir. 8 Q Which may or may not be done. 9 A . That's correct. 1 0 Q And if you do it in humans and you 1 1 do it in animals and you find out that it's 1 2 the same, then what's your answer? 1 3 A. Then there is -- what was the 1 4 question, now? Answer to what? 1 5 Q. Let's go back to the last 1 6 question. Will you have a greater degree of 1 7 predictability in the animal toxicity tests 1 8 rather than in human tests? 1 9 A. That's an assumption that I just 2 0 can't answer because I -- it's an assumption 2 1 that I don't know whether it would turn out 2 2 to be scientifically valid . 2 3 Q. So you are not willing to make 2 4 that assumption? 2 5 A. I'm not willing to make the GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 684 WATER PCB-SD0000030129 j assumption. 2 Q. Is there agreement or disagreement 3 on the -- in the scientific and medical 4 communities on the significance of animal 5 data? 6 MR. MALIN: Objection. 7 Answer the question if you think 8 you understand it. 9 A. Yes, there is. Some of the people 1 0 in the scientific community pay no -- give no 1 1 weight to animal testing, and some give it a 1 2 great deal of weight to it. 1 3 BY MR. COHEN: 1 4 Q Where d o you fall in t h a t 1 5 spectrum? 1 6 A . I cannot hear you. 1 7 Q Where d o you fall in th a t 1 8 spectrum? 1 9 A. I think it depends on the, the 2 0 compound you are testing, it depends on the 2 1 animal you are using . I would tend to 2 2 believe that there is some value in animal 2 3 testing, yes. How great a degree, I don't 2 4 know. I don' t belong to the group that says 2 5 bases a hundred percent of their calculation, GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS S OUR I 685 WATER PCB-SD0000030130 1jL of their belief on aniir. al testing, and 2 don't belong to the nihilists who say that 3 animal testing is m p good. I'm someplace in 4 the middle. 5 Q. You are someplace in the middle. 6 Are you more of one mind or the other with 7 respect to any particular compound? 8 MR. MALIN: Objection. 9 Answer that question if you think 1 0 you can. I don't understand it. 1 1 MR. COHEN: I would appreciate you 1 2 didn't make a speech every single objection, 1 3 Mr. Malin. Just say "Objection." Before, we 1 4 agreed, it's for form. 1 5 A. Well, there are some compounds 1 6 that are carcinogenic in animals and there's 1 7 been no clinical evidence of their being 1 8 carcinogenic in humans. 1 9 BY MR. COHEN: 2 0 Q. Is that, for example, PCB's? 2 1 A. Yes, and a host of other 2 2 compounds. There are probably two thousand 2 3 compounds that are carcinogenic in animals 2 4 and are probably only a couple of dozen of 2 5 those that may be carcinogenic, or maybe less GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 686 WATER PCB-SD0000030131 1 than that, that are carcinogenic in humans. 2 Q . Are you saying that are 3 carcinogenic in humans or that have been 4 proven to be carcinogenic in humans? 5 A. Have been accepted as being, 6 causing cancer in humans, yes, sir. 7 Q. Accepted by whom? 8 A. By a good part of the scientific 9 community. Nickel carbonyl is one, nickel 1 0 carbonyl is one, aminonaphthy1 amine is one, 1 1 s o there it is . Those are certainly accepted 1 2 by the medical people, and they are 1 3 carcinogenic i n animals in the same organ. 1 4 Q. Now let me ask you this, sir. Are 1 5 you saying that because PCB's have not been 1 6 proven to be carcinogenic in epidemiological 1 7 studies in humans, that you reject the animal 1 8 data as having application to humans? 1 9 A. Yes, I think that's true, because 2 0 we have not had carcinomas in humans. Now, I 2 1 don't know whether that is because the 2 2 material does not cause cancer in humans or 2 3 because there is not that exposure in the 2 4 usual use of the PCB's to give you enough 2 5 dose to cause cancer. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 687 WATER PCB-SD0000030132 1 Q. Well, you are not saying you 2 haven ' t had carcinomas in humans, you are 3 saying that you have not hadepidemiological 4 studies that have established to a 5 statistically significant degree a n excess of 6 carcinomas in humans thatwere exposed in 7 that particular study. 8 MR. COX: I object to the form of 9 the question. 1 0 MR . MALIN: Same objection. 1 1 A . And I want to be sure I got this 1 2 question right . Will you t e 11 me what the 1 3 question was? 1 4 MR . COHEN: And y ou don't have to 1 5 say "0 b j e c t i o n " a second tim e when the 1 6 reporter reads it back ; once the is enough. 1 7 MR . COX: Arnold - 1 8 MR . COHEN: Yes. 1 9 MR . COX : I think you are. 2 0 perhaps , using up more time than you are 2 1 saving by being so rigid about how the 2 2 objections are lodged. 2 3 MR. COHEN: You are trying to 2 4 prevent the witness from hearing and 2 5 answering the question when he's ready to GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS S OUR I 688 WATER PCB-SD0000030133 1 answer. 2 MR . COX: I'm going to make my 3 objection . 4 (The requested portion of the 5 record read by the reporter) 6 THE WITNESS : Well, speaking as 7 the witness, I haven't paid to much attention 8 to him. 9 MR. COHEN: Th a n k you. I 1 0 appreciate that. That' s , u n f o r t u n a t e 1 y t his 1 1 history in life. 1 2 THE WITNESS: No , as far a s I ' m 1 3 concerned, he is not in f 1 u e n c i n g me a s t o how 1 4 I'm going to answer thi s q u e s t i o n . 1 5 Now, will you give me the q u e s t i o n 1 6 again? 1 7 MR. COHEN: Good. Thank you t 1 8 Doctor. 1 9 (The requested portion of the 2 0 record read by the reporter) 2 1 A. You were talking now of a 2 2 particular study that showed an excess of 2 3 carcinomas in humans that were associated 2 4 during their working period, working life 2 5 with PCB. Now, there have been individual GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 689 WATER PCB-SD0000030134 1 studies that have shown this, but these 2 individual studies have not been 3 reproducible , and in some of the cases , 4 follow-up studies have negated the original 5 conclusion. 6 BY MR. COHEN: 7 Q . I understand what you are telling 8 me about epidemiologi cal studi e s , sir. 9 A . Well, I'm trying t o answer your 1 0 question on it, and I think I ' ve answered 1 1 Q. What you said in response to a 1 2 question about two questions back was that we 1 3 haven't had carcinomas in humans. 1 4 A. Proven due to exposure to PCB, 1 5 yes. 1 6 Q Well , the key, there, is the word 1 7 "proven." I s n ' t that right, sir? 1 8 MR . MALIN: Objection. 1 9 A . Well , n o , I don't believe that's a 2 0 key word. I mean, that appears valid 21 evidence to me, that if you do not have 2 2 reproducible, statistically correct 2 3 epidemiological studies that have repeatedly 2 4 shown the same cancer in different groups, it 2 5 looks like it's pretty scientifically proven, GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 690 WATER PCB-SD0000030135 1 to rr. e , that there is no association. 2 Q. So what you are saying is that you 3 are relying upon the results of the 4 epidemiological studies done thus far to 5 conclude that we haven ' t had carcinomas in 6 humans a s a result of exposure to PCB's? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. You have not individually followed 9 any of these people in those studies to know 1 0 whether they had carcinomas or not. 1 1 A . That's correct. 1 2 Q And in fact, some of the pe o p1e in 1 3 those studies did have carcinomas. 1 4 A . Well, yes, you are talking about 1 5 something else now. Certainly, they had 1 6 carcinomas. Whether that c a r c i noma was due 1 7 to a PCB is the key question, i t seems t o m e , 1 8 and I admit the fact they had c arcinoma S , but 1 9 I also state that it has not bean 2 0 scientifically or statistically proven that 2 1 such carcinomas were due to PCB exposure. 2 2 Q. And that's because that study did 2 3 not reach statistically significant levels? 2 4 MR. COX: Objection. 2 5 MR. MALIN: Same objection. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 691 WATER PCB-SD0000030136 1 A . Or there are other reasons besides 2 that. I t wasnot reproducible . 3 BY MR. COHEN: 4 Q. So in some studies, it did reach 5 statististically significant levels but was 6 not reproducible in another study? 7 MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Objection. 8 MR . MA LIN: Objection . Again, 9 he's asked and answered the same question, 1 0 months apart , many, many different times . 1 1 You ' v e asked it in so many different ways, 1 2 and you've gotten the same answer. 1 3 MR . COX: You twist it each time 1 4 you ask him. 1 5 MR . MALIN: It seems to me you've 1 6 taken an awful lot of time on this. I'm not 1 7 going to tell you how to take your 1 8 depositi on, but it seems to me that we're 1 9 wasting time on the same issue 2 0 But go ahead, Doctor; answer it 2 1 again . 2 2 THE WITNESS: Well, I'll have to 2 3 hear the question. 2 4 MR . COHEN : So will I. I've 2 5 forgotten it, too. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 692 WATER PCB-SD0000030137 1 (The requested portion of the 2 record read by the reporter) 3 A . Well, there ' s no question on that 4 couple of sentences you told me. I don't 5 know what to answer. 6 MR. COHEN: Read the last question 7 before that. Two questions, answer, 8 question. 9 MR. COX: Cox objection to that. 1 0 MR. MALIN: Objection to that, as 1 1 well. 1 2 (The requested portion of the 1 3 record read by the reporter) 1 4 A. I think you'd have to show me the 1 5 epidemiological study, and I could comment 1 6 much more intelligently on it. 1 7 BY MR. COHEN: 1 8 Q. Do you know of any study, animal 1 9 study or epidemiological study that dealt 2 0 with chronic, long-term exposure to PCB's? 2 1 A. Would you break that down into 2 2 both animal and experiment , and -- 2 3 Q. I'll do it separately . Do you 2 4 know of any animal toxicity study that dealt 2 5 with chronic , long-term exposure to PCB's? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 693 WATER PCB-SD0000030138 1 A . Yes. 2 Q. What was long-term in those 3 studies? Can you tell m 4 A . Two years . 5 Q And what type of animals were we 6 speaking of? 7 A . Rats. 8 Q And what were their life 9 expectancy, normally? D o you know? 1 0 A . Two years and a few months. 1 1 Q So this was a Imost the entire 1 2 period of their lives? 1 3 A . That's correc t . 1 4 Q And what was the method of 1 5 exposure? 1 6 A . Oral feeding. 1 7 Q And wha t was the dosage level? Do 1 8 you know? 1 9 A . One, I know, went up to a hundred 2 0 parts per million in the diet. I do not know 2 1 what the National Cancer Institute's study on 2 2 P C B was, but I have sort of a belief that 2 3 they used about the same level, a hundred 2 4 parts per million in the diet. 2 5 Q And do you re call what the results GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 694 WATER PCB-SD0000030139 1 o f those studies were? 2 A. Yes. The National Cancer 3 Institute did not find any statistical 4 increase in cancer that they could attribute 5 to the PCB. The Bio-Test studies done a t 6 Monsanto , for Monsanto , did not show any 7 increase . Kimbrough's work did show a n 8 increase, using 1260, in her rats. 9 Q. You said did not show a 1 0 statistical -- the National -- 1 1 A. Cancer Institute. 1 2 Q . -- Cancer Institute did not show a 1 3 statistical increase. Was that an animal 1 4 toxicity study? 1 5 A . Yes. 1 6 Q And they used statistical sampling 1 7 techniqu e s ? 1 8 A . I ' m sure they did. 1 9 Q Did they sacrifice the animals? 2 0 A . Oh , yes, certainly. 2 1 Q And they studied them for evidence 2 2 of n e o p1 asms? 2 3 A . Oh , yes. 2 4 Q . And what were they comparing the 2 5 results to? Are you saying they found no GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 695 WATER PCB-SD0000030140 1 neoplasms or they found no more neoplasms 2 than they would have expected in any 3 population, unexposed population of the same 4 breed of rats that were two years old? 5 A . I am saying I do not know the 6 exact number of tumors in the control, in the 7 test group, but - 8 MR. MALIN: The answer to your 9 quest ion is, it was a control group ; isn't 1 0 that the case? 1 1 A . Yes, there was a control group. 1 2 They did not fin d any significant increase i n 1 3 tumor s of any k i n d in the treated group. 1 4 BY MR . COHEN: 1 5 Q . Other than neoplasms, do you know 1 6 if they studied the animals for any other 1 7 form of medical injury? 1 8 A . Medical injury ? 1 9 Q Medical condit ion. 2 0 A . I don't b e1ie v e -- it's been quite 2 1 a few years sense I read this study, but I 2 2 think they were reporting primarily on 2 3 malignancies, and I do not know whether there 2 4 were other illnesses that affected these 2 5 animals. I don't know that. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MIS SOURI 696 WATER PCB-SD0000030141 1 Q Now, same question for 2 epidemiological studies in humans. ; 3 A . Okay, now, what was the question , I 4 again? i 5 Q . Do you know of any long-term , 6 chronic long-term exposure studies done in 7 humans, epidemiological studies done in 8 humans that showed a relationship between 9 that chronic long-term exposure and the 1 0 development of a medical condition or 1 1 disease? 1 2 A. As I have said repeatedly, there 1 3 are some studies over -- of workers who have 1 4 worked with PCB's over a long period of time 1 5 that, in some cases, have shown tumors. Some 1 6 have shown them of the prostate. A follow-up 1 7 on that showed -- didn't show excessive 1 8 prostate cancer. 1 9 There have been studies showing 2 0 carcinoma of the rectum in female employees. 2 1 The next time they followed these up, they 2 2 did not have a n increase of carcinomas in the 2 3 rectum, so there have been reports of an 2 4 excess of cancer in workers who were exposed 2 5 long-term to PCB's, but a s I said, they were GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MIS SOURI 697 WATER PCB-SD0000030142 1 not reproducible have not been reproducible.. 2 they have been different cancers, so I have 3 to agree with the epidemiologists that say 4 there is no valid epidemiological studies 5 that shows that working with PCB's in the 6 industrial environment can cause cancer . 7 Q . And a s we discussed earlier, you 8 have no personal knowledge of the exposures 9 that were covered by those epidemiological 1 0 studies? 1 1 A . No, sir. 1 2 Q. Do you believe that long-term 1 3 low-level exposure to benzene can cause 1 4 leukemia? 1 5 A. How low is low? 1 6 Q Do you believe that t h e r e is a 1 7 level of exposure to benzene ov e r a long 1 8 period o f time that will c a u s e 1 e u k e mia in 1 9 humans ? 2 0 A . Yes. 2 1 Q Do you remember when w e took your 2 2 deposition the first part of this deposition 2 3 back in December, we talked about quality 2 4 control testing in order to determine the 2 5 presence of the benzofurans in the product GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 698 WATER PCB-SD0000030143 1 going out the door? 2 A . Yes, sir. 3 Q And you b e 1 i e v e d that t h a t t e s t i n g 4 occurred subsequent to y o u r r e t i r e m e n t ? 5 A . That's what I believed t yes, s i r . 6 Q Were you a w a r e of any s u c h t e s t i n g 7 going on prior to your r e tirement ? 8 A . I don't b e1 i e v e I was. I don ' t 9 recall it 1 0 Q Would intern a 1 p r o t o c o 1 s i n 1 1 Monsanto Chemical Compa ny have c a u s e d t h e 1 2 quality c o n t r o1 people t o report t o you t h e 1 3 presence of dibenzofurans in production lots 1 4 of P C B ' s ? 1 5 A. Well, I don't believe there was 1 6 any formal reporting, but after that, you 1 7 show incidents in which dibenzofurans were 1 8 indicted as a causative agent of the problem. 1 9 I f e e 1 sure that if we were running, if we 2 0 were finding, if we were capable o f finding 2 1 the material in the PCB ' s , they - - I would 2 2 p r o b ably hear about it, but I don ' t recall 2 3 any formal reporting system that would notify 24 me 2 5 Were you aware that in late 1973, GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST . LOUIS , MIS SOURI 699 WATER PCB-SD0000030144 1 samples of Aroclor 1254 were found tc have 2 tetra- and pentach 1 orod i benzofurans? 3 A. I may have, and I don't know, but 4 it does not strike me that I -- that it was 5 very prominent in my remembrance. 6 Q. Would the presence of tetra- and 7 pentachlorodibenzofurans have caused you any 8 concern regarding the toxicity of the 9 product? 1 0 A. Well, it's always concern, but 1 1 after all, we had tested the product with the 1 2 material in it. If it was in it, when you 1 3 test the whole product, you are giving the 1 4 toxicity for the whole product. The 1 5 manufacturing procedure stayed the same, so 1 6 one would assume that the levels of 1 7 benzofurans, if there were such that occurred 1 8 in 1970, would be the same as 1972, and if 1 9 you tested the 1970 material, the presence of 2 0 that dibenzofurans would not have altered my 2 1 thinking a s to the fact that PCB's a s a n 2 2 industrial compound have a mild to moderate 2 3 toxicity. 2 4 Q. Would you expect production lots 2 5 to remain roughly consistent in what was GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MIS SOURI 700 WATER PCB-SD0000030145 1 found? 2 A . I think , generally spea king, ye 3 Q Were you aware in late 1 9 7 3, t h 4 p r o d u ction lots of Aroclor 1254 were found 5 c o n t a i n chlorinated naphthalenes? 6 A . No, sir. I was not. I may h a v 7 been aware of it, but I don't recall it. 8 Q. Have you ever seen toxicity 9 studies done on chlorinated naphthalenes? 1 0 A. Well, sure. Drinker did some of 1 1 that along back in 1938. 1 2 Q. That's part of the Halawax 1 3 materials he was studying? 1 4 A. That's correct. 1 5 Q. Is it your understanding that your 1 6 product did or did not contain chlorinated 1 7 naphthalenes? 1 8 A. My understanding if Monsanto's 1 9 product did or did not? 2 0 Q . Yes. 2 1 A. I have no recollection of if it 2 2 did, but I would -- if it did, it would 2 3 probably be in the parts per million range. 2 4 Q. Do you considerchlorinated 2 5 naphthalenes to be more or less toxic than GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 701 WATER PCB-SD0000030146 1 PCE ' s ? 2 A . I think they ' re considerably more 3 toxic . 4 Q . Were you aware that in late 1973, 5 production lots of A r o c1o r 1 2 4 2 were found to 6 have trichloroterphenyls? 7 A. I may have been and I may not. 8 Q. Do you consider 9 trichloroterphenyls to be more or less toxic 1 0 than PCB's? 1 1 A. Probably they were somewhat more 1 2 toxic, but 1 think you probably are reading 1 3 some statement saying how much is in there. 1 4 We're talking in parts per million. They do 1 5 not add any appreciable addition to the 1 6 toxicity of straight Aroclor or straight PCB. 1 7 Q. Let me ask you this. If the 1 8 substance was found in the product, wouldn't 1 9 you want to know a t what level it was found? 2 0 A. Oh, sure. 2 1 Q. Would you find the reporting of 2 2 unidentified halogenated compounds in your 2 3 product to be acceptable reporting? 24 A . Well,, i t depends on how much. I 2 5 mean, if you've got five parts per million. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS S OUR I 702 WATER PCB-SD0000030147 1 that's one thing. If you've got a hundred 2 thousand parts per million, that's something 3 else. 4 Q. Let me show you a document that's 5 been marked as PRR 004370. 6 (Witness p e ruses s a id 7 document. ) 8 MR . Me LAUGHLIN : Is this mar k e d as 9 an exhibit? 1 0 MR . COHEN: No, it's not 1 1 MR . COX: I don' t u n d e r s t a n d the 1 2 process of showing the witness a n e x h i b i t 1 3 that's not been marked. 1 4 MR . COHEN: It's a docum e n t that's 1 5 been well identified about a dozen time s . 1 6 MR . COX: But it ought t o be made 1 7 a part of the record. 1 8 MR . COHEN: Well , maybe I'll d o 1 9 that, to keep you happy, Ri chard . I don't 2 0 want you to be unhappy. 2 1 MR. COX: Thank you. 2 2 THE WITNESS: Is there a request 2 3 for me to do something with me with this? 2 4 BY MR. COHEN: 2 5 Q. Just look a t it. Have you had a GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS S OUR I 703 WATER PCB-SD0000030148 1 chance to look at it? 2 (Witness peruses said 3 document . ) 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. You are looking at more pages than 6 one, but do those reports give you very much 7 information? 8 A. No, sir, because it seems to me 9 that I don't know who did the report, and 1 0 I've no way of knowing even what company it 1 1 says, to identify this report, and it says, 1 2 "Aroclor 1242 induction date, 9/73. Samples 1 3 analyzed, 2. Sample size, 600 milligrams. 1 4 Found di-, tri- and tetrach1orodibenzofurans , 1 5 chlorinated naphthalenes, trich1oroterpheny1 1 6 and unidentified halogenated compounds." 1 7 It doesn't say anything about the 1 8 amount present in there at all, so what did 1 9 you ask me about the report? 2 0 Q - Does it give you much in formation? 2 1 A . It doesn't give me any. 2 2 Q . Thank you. You said it said 2 3 "Induction date." I think it says 2 4 "Production date," if you'll look at it 2 5 again . GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST . LOUIS , MIS S OUR I 7 04 WATER PCB-SD0000030149 1 A . Oh . 2 Q It's not a great copy, I'll agree 3 A . It's "Produ c t d a t e , 9/73. " 4 MR . COHEN : Okay. Why don' t we 5 mark -- 6 THE WITNESS : Doe s it say when 7 they did it? I mean, I don' t know if they 8 did that when I was t h ere or not. 9 BY MR. COHEN: 1 0 Q So you are saying you don't know 1 1 when the test was done w i t h o ut regard to the 1 2 production date? 1 3 A . Yes. In other wo r d s , they g r a b b e 1 4 a sample that was made in August '73, 0 c t o b e 1 5 '73 -- September '73, but I don't know when 1 6 they ran the test. 1 7 MR. COHEN: Okay, we'll t ak e this 1 8 six-page document prev i o u s 1 y marked as K a 1 e y 1 9 4 and mark it Kelly 25. 2 0 (Kelly Deposition Exhibit 2 5 2 1 marked for identification.) 2 2 MR. COHEN: We'll make extra 2 3 copies of it. 2 4 BY MR. COHEN: 2 5 Q. Doctor, do you remember we talked GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 705 WATER PCB-SD0000030150 1 somewhat in the earlier session cf your 2 deposition, not today, about the conditions 3 at Pao1i ? 4 A. Ican't hear the last. 5 Q. Do you remember that we talked 6 somewhat earlier in your deposition about the 7 conditions at the Paoli rail yard and car 8 shop? 9 A . Yes, w e talked abou t it,, but 1 0 don't re member s a Y i ng much out side of t h 1 1 fact t h a t I had n ever seen it. I ' d never 1 2 to the P a o 1 i r a i 1 shop 1 3 Q. What information do you have about 1 4 the various modes of exposure that allegedly 1 5 occurred at Paoli? 1 6 A . Very little. 1 7 Q Can you tell me what you do have? 1 8 A . Well , there was , working o n 1 9 t r a n s forme r s that had PCB's in it. I don ' t 2 0 know what they did t o them, so very 1 i t 11 e . 2 1 Q What do you know about t h e c 1 a i m e d 2 2 medic a 1 p r o b1e m s that the P1 aintiffs have a s 2 3 a result of their exposure to PCB's? 2 4 MR. MALIN: Objection to the 2 5 question; asked and answered. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST . LOUIS, MIS SOURI 706 WATER PCB-SD0000030151 1 A. Nothing. 2 BY MR . COHEN : 3 Q . Do you have a n opinion whether 4 PCB's or any other related compounds we've 5 been talking about, PCBF, PCBD, the various 6 chlorinated benzene compounds that are in 7 Pyranol, were in any way responsible for any 8 of those claimed conditions? 9 MR. MALIN: Objection. He doesn't 1 0 know what they are. 1 1 A. I mean, I don't know what the 1 2 claims are. 1 3 BY MR. COHEN: 1 4 Q. So you have no opinion today? 1 5 A. No, sir. 1 6 Q. Are you familiar with the term 1 7 "Superfund endangerment assessments"? 1 8 A. Just what I read in the paper. 1 9 I'm familiar with the term. I don't know 2 0 what it means. 2 1 MR. COHEN: Mark this a s Kelly 26, 2 2 please . 2 3 (Kelly Deposition Exhibit 26 2 4 marked for identification. } 2 5 (Witness peruses said GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS S OUR I 707 WATER PCB-SD0000030152 1 document. > 2 BY MR. COHEN: j j3 Q. Have you ever seen that document 4 before? 5 A . I think I have. I think I've seen 6 it in one of these depositions. 7 MR. COX: Could we know what the 8 document is? 9 THE WITNESS : The document doesn't 1 0 have any date on it, don't have any heading, 1 1 doesn't have any anything. 1 2 MR. COHEN: It was an interview -- 1 3 who was this interview with, Michael? 1 4 MR. MALIN: I think, if I'm not 1 5 mistaken, this is a letter that -- a response 1 6 to a letter that Westinghouse wrote, and I 1 7 think Bill Papageorge responded to it. 1 8 MR. COHEN: That ' s what I thought ; 1 9 the questions and answers were Papageorge's 2 0 answers. 2 1 MR. MALIN: 11 was included in 2 2 their response to our motion for summary 2 3 judgment. 2 4 MR. COHEN: And then you attached 2 5 the letter, the Westinghouse letter with it. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST . LOUIS, MIS SOURI 708 WATER PCB-SD0000030153 *1 MR. MALIN: And there was a letter 2 that was attached to it. 3 MR. COX: Was it the -- what's 4 this, the question-and-answer document? 5 MR. MALIN: It's the addendum to 6 it; it's not the full document . 7 BY MR. COHEN: 8 Q. So you've seen it before in 9 depositions but you have never seen it prior 1 0 to that time? 1 1 A. No, sir. What was the date of 1 2 this, by any chance? Do es anybody know? 1 3 MR . COHEN: I think Mr. M a 1 i n 1 4 knows, i f he recalls. 1 5 MR . MALIN: I don't know the exact 1 6 date bee a u s e I'd have t o have that 1 e 11 e r , so 1 7 I can't tell you off the top of my head the 1 8 exact date of it. 1 9 A. Well, I don't recall ever seeing 2 0 it while I was with Monsanto . 2 1 BY MR. COHEN: 2 2 Q. What was your relationship with 2 3 Mr. William Papageorge? 2 4 A. Well, we were working in the same 2 5 problem in different fields, it was very GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 709 WATER PCB-SD0000030154 1 close; he was in our office two or three 2 times a week. I saw him lots. 3 Q. What was the problem? 4 A . Hmm? . 5 Q. What was the problem you were 6 working on? 7 A. Well, theeffect of PCB's on the 8 environment . 9 Q. When you say the environment, does 1 0 that include humans? 1 1 A. Well, yes, it could. 1 2 Q. And what was Mr. Papageorge's 1 3 department? 1 4 A. Well, that depends on the time. 1 5 At 1970, he was made environmental chief of 1 6 the Monsanto Chemical Company, which is a 17 major subsidiary of the MonsantoCompany, I 1 8 mean, not subsidiary where he -- a major 1 9 division o f the M o n s a n t o Company, and 2 0 to that. h e was the plant manager a t 2 1 Anniston, Alabama, where they made PCB's. 2 2 Q. During this time period when you 2 3 were dealing with this -- 2 4 A. A little louder please. 2 5 Q. Sorry , sir. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 7 10 WATER PCB-SD0000030155 1 D u r i n g this time p e r i o d when you 2 were dealing w i t h this problem , a s you 3 described it o f PCB's in the e n v i r o n m e n t , 4 what was his t i tie ? 5 A . I t h ink , Director o f Environm e n t a 1 6 something , I d o n ' t know what, for the 7 Monsanto Chemic a 1 Company , whi c h i s not the 8 whole Monsanto Company. It was probably a 9 fourth of the company or a third of the 1 0 company. 1 1 Q. What were the other companies? 1 2 A. Well, the Monsanto Agricultural 1 3 Company, the Monsanto Plastics Company, 1 4 the -- gosh, the Fisher Controls Company, 1 5 there were about four or five of them. 1 6 Q. What was his role at that time? 1 7 Do you recall? 1 8 A. Well, he was the chief 1 9 investigating it, and answering questions 2 0 about disposal, answering questions about 2 1 uses, or notifying the customers of what we 2 2 were going to do about the ceasing supplying 2 3 certain use, for certain uses. He ran the 2 4 whole environmental aspect of PCB's. 2 5 Q. Where did he get his information GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 7 11 WATER PCB-SD0000030156 on the toxicological properties of PCB's? 2 A . Well, I think , from information he 3 got from the Medical Department over the 4 years that he was plant manager a t Anniston 5 where he -- where they manufactured PCB's, a s 6 well, a s I said, frequent , two- or 7 three-time-weekly visits to our department , 8 he and Wheeler and I were very close to each 9 other as far as passing information back and 1 0 forth . 1 1 Q. So the information he would have 1 2 had would, of necessity, through one group or 1 3 another, come from your department during 1 4 that time period? 1 5 A. Well, also, though, he had, he had 1 6 a lot of dealings with the electrical 1 7 industry , he had dealings with the plastics 1 8 industry, and he got information from them 1 9 also, I'm sure. 2 0 Q. He got outside information on the 2 1 toxicologic properties of PCB's? 2 2 A. Well, I would say if you mean 2 3 toxicological properties -- 2 4 Q . Yes, sir. 2 5 A . -- due to animal experimentation, GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 7 12 WATER PCB-SD0000030157 J1. h e did not, but h e got toxicological 2 i n forma t i o n due t o the lack of, due 3 lack of injury to their workers. I mean, he 4 would get their workers' experience 5 manufacturing , using these products . 6 Q. And would he pass the information 7 that he got from outside sources on to you? 8 A. Yes, if it were anything positive, 9 certainly . 1 0 Q. So in other words, negative 1 1 information he would not pass on to you? 1 2 A. Well, that's not necessarily so. 1 3 He may say, "I was at 'X' company. They 1 4 haven't had any problem in 25 years." He 1 5 might pass that on to me. 1 6 Q. Did you make any record of that 1 7 information when it was given to you? 1 8 A. I would doubt it. 1 9 Q. May I see the exhibit for a 2 0 moment, please? 2 1 (Witness complies) 2 2 Q . Do you see this s tatement that he 2 3 makes , here, where he says, "The potential 2 4 toxic effects in humans" -- if I may, since I 2 5 don't have an extra copy -- "The potential GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS S OUR I 7 13 WATER PCB-SD0000030158 _L toxic effects in humans from excessive 2 exposure to polychlorinated biphenyls include 3 injury to the liver and chloracne"? 4 A . Yes, sir, I see that. 5 0 . What would have been his 6 information for that statement, sir? 7 MR. MALIN: Objection. 8 Answer the question. 9 A. I do not know where he got the 1 0 information concerning chloracne unless he 1 1 got it from the Usho experience, which was a 1 2 nonindustr i a 1 use or a Japanese, just 1 3 Japanese PCB's manufactured by a different 1 4 process from Monsanto, containing different 1 5 contaminants than Monsanto had, different 16 levels. As far as ingesting tothe level, 1 7 I'm sure he got that from us because we 1 8 talked to him about the two cases of acute 1 9 illnesses that we had and in heat transfer 2 0 units . 2 1 BY MR. COHEN: 2 2 Q. The sentence , last sentence, 2 3 "Although chloracne is difficult to evaluate 2 4 in animals, in humans this takes the form of 2 5 comedones, large blackheads with typical acne GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 7 14 WATER PCB-SD0000030159 1 pustules and may be an external symptom of 2 overexposure preceding serious -- the word 3 underlined - - "liver injury. " 4 What serious liver injury was he 5 speaking of? Do you know? 6 MR. M A L I N : Objection again . 7 Answer the question. 8 A. I do not know what he was speaking 9 about unless -- well, I just don't know 1 0 because the "serious" injury we were seeing 1 1 in the two different episodes I've described 1 2 over and over occurred so fast that chloracne 1 3 did not occur. You don't get chloracne in 1 4 two or three weeks after an exposure, and so 1 5 I do not know the basis of a statement, "May 1 6 be an external symptom of overexposure 1 7 preceding serious liver injury." I don't 1 8 know how he equates the term "preceding 1 9 serious injury." If he means you get 2 0 chloracne before you get anything else, I 2 1 think he's correct. That seems to be 2 2 accepted a s a sort of the hallmark of PCB 2 3 overexposure . 2 4 BY MR.COHEN: 2 5 Q. Do you know what "serious" -- GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 7 15 WATER PCB-SD0000030160 1 J. underlined -- "liver injury" he is speaking t 2 of? , 3 A . No , sir, I certainly do not. j 4 Q I n r e s p o n s e to question 3 , t h e i 5 question, as I understand it, reads, "Since 6 Inerteen affects birds and other animals , i f 7 there is no real effect to human beings , how 8 do you explain it to employees in such a way 9 that they will understand why it can kill a 1 0 bird and not a human? " 11 The answer is, "There is a 1 2 potential real effect to humans - - including 1 3 death -- as di scussed in the answer to 1 4 question 1." 1 5 Where do you suppose he would have 1 6 gotten that information? 1 7 MR. MALIN: Objection. 1 8 Answer the question. 1 9 A. There is a potential real effect 2 0 to humans, including death. If you inhale a 2 1 material in sufficient quantity, you could 2 2 get chemical hepatitis, and if you keep on 2 3 doing it or get enough in the one or two 2 4 doses, you could die from i t , yes. The cases 2 5 we have talked about , the ones that have been GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MIS SOURI 7 16 WATER PCB-SD0000030161 1 reported to roe and I repeatedly mentioned, 2 are two episodes where people developed j i 3 jaundice and acute chemical hepatitis from 4 breathing material in a jury-rigged heat 5 transfer unit a t elevated temperatures . 6 That's where the -- now, conceivably, if 7 those people had stayed on, instead of 8 getting out after they developed their 9 jaundice, if they stayed on for another 1 0 couple of weeks, they conceivably could have 1 1 died from it, yes. 1 2 BY MR. COHEN: 1 3 Q. And you have already stated 1 4 earlier that the mode of ingestion, that is, 1 5 inhalation, as compared to dermal absorption 1 6 or ingestion, is not significant. 1 7 A. No, I didn't say that. 1 8 Q. What did you say? 1 9 A. I said that I believed the effects 2 0 on the human body were the same whether you 2 1 took it orally, whether you had it absorbed 2 2 through the skin, or by inhalation , but I did 2 3 say, I believe I said that you can get a 2 4 significant amount by inhalation, and if I 2 5 didn't say it could occur faster, I'll say it GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST . LOUIS , MIS SOURI 7 17 WATER PCB-SD0000030162 1_ now. 2 Q . So in other words , you could take 3 more up by inhalation than the other means? 4 A . That ' s correct , and I think it 5 would act more rapidly. 6 Q. Do you agree or disagree that 7 there is a possibility of serious human 8 injury, including death, from an absorption 9 other than through inhalation? 1 0 A . Well -1 1 MR. MALIN: Objection. You said 1 2 in sufficient amounts. 1 3 A. You said in s u f f i c i e n t amount. 1 4 You mean -- certainly, if a person wanted to 1 5 commit suicide and drank a quart o f the 1 6 stuff, conceivably, a quart would be enough 1 7 to kill you. I don't know. 1 8 BY MR. COHEN: 1 9 Q. How about through dermal 2 0 absorption? 2 1 A. Well, I can't figure out that 2 2 particular scenario because I've seen places 2 3 where people have immersed their hands 2 4 repeatedly and developed only chloracne, and 2 5 that we advise strongly against repeated or GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 7 18 WATER PCB-SD0000030163 1 continuous skin contact 2 Q. Do you know when you firststarted 3 giving that advice? 4 A . Sometime, I don't know whether it 5 was before or after World War I I . I don't 6 know, but a long, long time. 7 Q. Through what vehicle were you 8 giving out that advice? 9 A. On labels, on bulletins,and any 1 0 letters to customer inquiries. 1 1 Q. Wasit something that was 1 2 prominently on the barrels of the products? 1 3 A. Well, yes, it was, seemed to me to 1 4 be pretty prominent. 1 5 Q. Do you recall seeing labels that 1 6 said -- 1 7 A . Oh, yes. 1 8 Q -- "Don't let this contact your 1 9 skin" ? 2 0 A . Sure, I've seen it. 2 1 Q Did the label describe the risk of 2 2 harm? 2 3 A . No, it just described how to avoid 2 4 all harm. 2 5 Q What did it say? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 7 19 WATER PCB-SD0000030164 A . It said "Caution," may have said 2 a t some time, they put on, "Contains 3 chlorinated hydrocarbon. Do not breathe in 4 confined spaces or at elevated temperatures. 5 Do not --" and "Avoid repeated or continuous 6 skin contact." 7 Q. And that was labels that was on 8 the package, itself? 9 A . Yes. 1 0 Q. On the barrel? 1 1 A . Mm-hmm . 1 2 Q. But it didn't describe what the 1 3 consequence was of that exposure? 1 4 A. You mean, "Do not get this on your 1 5 hands continuously or on your body or you 1 6 will get liver trouble"? 1 7 Q. Or anything to that effect. 1 8 A. No, I don't think that's usual on 1 9 labels at the gasoline 2 0 not smoke around here." 2 1 not smoke while filling 2 2 blow up." I think you' 2 3 to do to protect themse 2 4 liable to happen . 2 5 (Recess) GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST . LOUIS, MIS SOURI WATER PCB-SD0000030165 AA BY MR. COHEN: 2 Q . Doctor , you remember earlier I 3 asked you whether there was agreement on the 4 applicability of animal data to understanding 5 diseases in humans, and you said that there 6 are some who are in full support and there 7 are others who are naysayers or nihilists who 8 say no, and you fell somewhere in between, 9 and it depended on the compound, that sort of 1 0 thing? 1 1 A. Yes, sir. 1 2 Q. Let's go back and ask the same 1 3 question on the applicability of human 1 4 epidemiological data. 1 5 MR . MALIN: Objection. I don't 1 6 quite understand what that question i s . 1 7 Could we have the full question on this one? 1 8 MR . COHEN: Sure. 1 9 BY MR . COHEN: 2 0 Q. With respect to human 2 1 epidemiological data, sir, would you agree 2 2 that all scientists accept the validity of 2 3 human epidemiological data as a predictor of 2 4 ailments in human beings? 2 5 MR. MALIN: I'll object to that GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI WATER PCB-SD0000030166 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 question. A . As a predictor of what? ; BY MR . COHEN: 1 Q . Ailments in human beings. A. Animals? MR . COHEN: Ailments . A. Oh, ailments. I'll object to the form of that question. Go ahead; answer the question if you can. A. Well, there is, certainly, divergence of opinion. In fact, I don't know of any epidemiologist that believes the perfect epidemiological study has been made. They all will say there are some flaws in it, but Ithink if you go by the concurrence of opinion, you could come to a fairly reasonable scientific conclusion. BY MR. COHEN: Q. Are you saying from looking at a number of epidemiological studies on the same subject matter, you could come to a conclusion with respect to the subject of those studies? A. I think so. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS S OUR I WATER PCB-SD0000030167 1 J_ Q . Are you aware of scientists who 2 reject epidemiological studies? 3 A. You mean all epidemiological 4 studies or -- 5 Q . Generally reject the notion that 6 epidemiological studies are particularly 7 probative of a cause-and-effect relationship 8 in humans. 9 A . I don 't think so. I don' t know of 1 0 any. Th ere may b e . 1 1 Q Just if I can clarify one point , 1 2 on the i s s u e of epidemiological stud i e s , you 1 3 cited the four factors, and one of them is 1 4 repeat ability, as I understand it. 1 5 A. Yes, sir. 1 6 Q. Do I understand that you are 1 7 saying that repeatability means that using a 1 8 differ ent sample population, you can repeat 1 9 the re suits obtained in a particular sample 2 0 popu1 a t ion? 2 1 A. Yes, sir. If I may phrase what 2 2 you are saying, an epidemiological study i n 2 3 one group of individuals in the, doing the 2 4 same general work as another group, come out 2 5 with the same answer . GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MIS SOURI WATER PCB-SD0000030168 1 0 And that ' s what you mean by 2 repeatability? 3 A . Yes, sir. 4 Q And again earlier today, we were , i j5 discussing a me e t i n g that you apparently had i J6 with Dr. R e n a t e Kimbrough, and I think you 7 said that she had come here to St. Louis. I 8 believe you had stated that you thought it 9 was about the timethat you had retired. Is 1 0 that right? 1 1 A. Well, before I retired, yes. I 1 2 had not retired. I was still working for 1 3 Monsanto, but I do not believe -- I do not 1 4 recall whether it was at the first part of 1 5 '74 or the last part of '73. 1 6 Q. Was that a meeting with Dr. 1 7 Kimbrough individually, or was it as part of 1 8 her membership with an agency? 1 9 A. Oh, I'm sure she came as a 2 0 government, member of a government agency, 2 1 and to the best of my impression, she had 2 2 somebody else along. I thought there were 2 3 two "feds" there. I don't -- 2 4 Q Two? You recall two people? 2 5 A . I believe there were two, yes GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI WATER PCB-SD0000030169 1 Q. Let me ask you to look at this 2 document . 3 MR. COHEN : Let's mark it, just 4 We'll mark i t a s K e ny 2 7 . 5 (Kelly D e p o s i t i o n Exh i b i t 2 7 6 Marked for i den t i f i c a t i o n . ) 7 marketed marked. 8 (Witness peruses said 9 document. ) 1 0 (Discussion off the record 1 1 BY MR. COHEN: 1 2 Q. Dr. Kelly, 27, could you identify 1 3 that? 1 4 A. This is Exhibit 27, a meeting with 1 5 NIOSH November the 22nd, 1974 -- and also for 1 6 your information, I retired eight days later, 1 7 November the 30th -- re: PCB's. For NIOSH, 1 8 there were one two three four five, five 1 9 government people besides Kimbrough. For 2 0 Monsanto, there were three people from our 2 1 department: Kelly, Wheeler, and Levinskas, 22 our toxicologist, Papageorge, Director of 2 3 Manufacturing -- Manager of Manufacturing, 2 4 and had a Manager of Environmental Affairs , 2 5 G. F. Fort, who probably -- I don't know who GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MIS SOURI WATER PCB-SD0000030170 1 he was. That's a new name for me. He 2 probably reported to Papageorge, but I don't 3 know. Papageorge was there. Papageorge had 4 a different title, too, Product Acceptability 5 Specialist at Process Chemicals Division. I 6 don 't know what all that title meant . 7 Q . Does this memo refresh your 8 recollection at all about what -- who was at 9 the meeting, at leas t ? 1 0 A. Oh, yes. I mean -1 1 Q. Do you remember this whole gang of 1 2 people there? 1 3 A. I didn't remember there were that 1 4 many. I thought somebody came along with 1 5 Kimbrough. 1 6 But obviously, there were. 1 7 Q. Is this the meeting at which you 1 8 discussed the results of her studies? 1 9 A. Yes, sir. I do not know if that 2 0 was the only thing. I mean, at some time 2 1 around that time -- now remember, this is 2 2 right when I'm getting ready to leave, so I 2 3 wasn't paying too much attention to what's 2 4 going to happen two weeks from then. NIOSH 2 5 was somewhat interested in doing a, an GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI WATER PCB-SD0000030171 1 epide/riological survey of our workers. I 2 think they were talking about that before . 3 Whether this was a follow-up to that or not, 4 they a t one time sent people around when they 5 looked the thing over and said , "Well , you 6 don't have enough workers to do anything on 7 it," so they didn't do it. So I don't know 8 if this was directed solely to, to 9 Kimbrough's work and our work; I don't know, 1 0 but I don't see any, that biometric branch 1 1 person was probably an epidemiological, and 1 2 then there's another epidemiologist in Dr. 1 3 Heath from the CDC, so I don't know what we 1 4 discussed. I'm pretty vague on it. 1 5 Q. Do you know if any of these people 1 6 are still with Monsanto Company? Bratsch, 1 7 Savage, Engman or Fort? 1 8 A. I don't know. 1 9 Q. How about Levinskas? 2 0 A. He retires in a week. 2 1 Q He's still there now? 2 2 A . Yes. Right now, he's s t ill 2 3 Q Did you ever did talk t o Dr 2 4 Kimbrough again after this meeting? 2 5 A . Beg pardon? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MIS SOURI WATER PCB-SD0000030172 Q. Have you ever spoken to Dr. 2 Kimbrough again after this meeting? 3 A. I don't think so, no, because as I 4 said, I went out with the company eight days 5 later. 6 Q And that was it? 7 A . That was i t . l i 8 MR . COHEN John, you want to ask 9 a few questions? 1 0 (No response) 1 1 MR. COHEN: Just a couple of more. 1 2 Let's mark this as 28. 1 3 (Kelly Deposition Exhibit 28 1 4 marked for identification.) 1 5 BY MR. COHEN: 1 6 Q. Can you identify the document, 28? 1 7 A. This is a document, Deposition 1 8 Exhibit Kelly 28, from Elmer Wheeler, dated 1 9 March the 7th, 1969, to me concerning two 2 0 things: One, about Aroclors, and the other, 2 1 about incinerating plastic wastes. 2 2 Q. Referring to the section regarding 2 3 the Aroclors, what's the first sentence of 2 4 that letter? 2 5 A. "The Aroclor pot is really GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MIS SOURI WATER PCB-SD0000030173 1 boiling. 2 Q D o you know w hat that means? 3 A . I guess there was a n awful lot of 4 publicity about the findings from the West 5 Coast. . 6 Q. And that was what; the presence of 7 PCB's in various forms of wildlife? 8 A. And the problem with the thin 9 eggshells in avian species. 1 0 Q Do you agree that PCB's can cause 1 1 effects on wildlife? 1 2 A. They can cause th inning o f the 1 3 eggshells, yes, they can. 1 4 Q. May I see that exhibit? 1 5 (Witness complies) 1 6 Q. The reference in here to Calandra, 1 7 that's IBT? 1 8 A . That's correct . 1 9 Q Do you remember at the la s t 2 0 session of your deposition we talked about 2 1 two individuals who were apparently 2 2 epidemiologists who had done studies on the 2 3 effects of PCB's in employees at the 2 4 Krummrich plant? 2 5 A. Yes, sir. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MIS SOURI WATER PCB-SD0000030174 1 v Sauge llinois? 2 A . I don't know if they were both 3 employees . Two people did -- you say two 4 employees did it? 5 Q Yes. Weren't they - 6 A . I don't know if tha t Munch worked 7 for Monsanto or not. Zach did 8 Q Zach did? 9 A . Yes, the other one may. I don't 1 0 know. That was after I left. 1 1 Q This all occurred a f t e r you left? 1 2 A . Yes. 1 3 Q And do you know the i n d i v i d u a 1 1 4 named Sus kind? 1 5 A . Oh, yes, very well. 1 6 Q Are you aware that t h e r e has been 1 7 an allega tion made recently by the 1 8 Environmental Protection Agency against those 1 9 same individuals regarding dioxin studies on 2 0 employees at the -- at a Monsanto plant? 2 1 A. I don't know if it was at the same 2 2 employees. I know anecdotally that somebody 2 3 said that they had some thoughts about 2 4 Suskind's epidemiological studies, but I 2 5 thought that was at our Nitro, West Virginia, GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MISSOURI WATER PCB-SD0000030175 1 plant, no t doing -- hav i n g nothin g to do with 2 P C B ' s . I thought it w a s 2 , 4 , 5 T . 3 Q 2 , 4 , 5T? 4 A . That ' s what I t h ought I could be 5 wrong on that, but -- 6 Q What is 2,4, 5 T 7 7 A . 2-dichlorodi ph e n o x e n e , trichlor -- 8 I thought you want the c h e m i c a 1 . It's a 9 herbicide 1 0 Q What is it? 1 1 A . It's a herbi c i d e 1 2 Q Are you awar e o f any s u c h 1 3 allegatio ns regarding h i s e x p o s u r e studies 1 4 with respect to dioxins 7 1 5 A . Where? You m e a n - 1 6 Q Against the same s c i e n t i s t s , 1 7 regarding exposure stud i e s on Mon santo 1 8 employees to the substance dioxin. 1 9 A. Well, I thought that they believed 2 0 that there was dioxin in the 2 , 4 , 5 T, if this 2 1 is the one they're talking about. I don't 2 2 recall Suskind ever doing a PCB study. 2 3 MR. COHEN: Okay. John? 24 25 GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI WATER PCB-SD0000030176 1 EXAMINATION 2 BY MR. INNELLI: 3 Q Dr. Kelly, my name is John I n e 1 1 i . 4 I also -- 5 A . John who? 6 0 Ine11i . 7 A . Yes, sir. 8 Q I'm also here on behalf of the 9 Plaintiffs , and I have a few questions to ask 1 0 you. 1 1 A. I'll ask you to speak a little 1 2 louder, please. 1 3 Q. Yes, I will. I'm sorry. 1 4 I note on Kelly 27 that it 1 5 identifies Elmer P. Wheeler as Director, 1 6 Environmental Health in the Medical 1 7 Department. Do you know when he became 1 8 Director of Environmental Health? 1 9 A. No. When's the date of that 2 0 memorandum? 2 1 Q. This is the November 22nd, 1974, 2 2 memorandum. 2 3 A. Oh, this, well, obviously, it was 2 4 sometime before I left. Monsanto was always 2 5 changing titles. I mean, first they would GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS S OUR I WATER PCB-SD0000030177 1 say, "You can't have two directors of one 2 department, you can't have a Medical Director 3 and a Director of Environment. That man has 4 to be a manager." Now there's a little less, 5 a manager has less status than a director, 6 even though they get the same money, but then 7 they changed their mind and let people go 8 back to being called directors under a 9 director . 10 Q. You were theDirector of the 1 1 Medical Department? 1 2 A . That's correct. 1 3 Q. Did there come a time when an 1 4 Environmental Health Group within the Medical 1 5 Department was created? 1 6 A. Well, there was a time when, to 1 7 use an Army phrase, in addition to their 1 8 other duties, members of the Industrial 1 9 Hygiene Department became an Environmental 2 0 Group. 2 1 Q. And what were the responsibilities 2 2 of the Environmental Group? 2 3 A. They were to see and report to the 2 4 Executive Committee if there were any 2 5 environmental problems in the plants that GOREREPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MIS SOURI WATER PCB-SD0000030178 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 1 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 needed correction, they were to speak as one voice on matters affecting various manufacturing installations. If we had, in Alabama, we may have a textile plant, an organic chemicals plant, and probably another plant belonging to a different division, and rather than three people going down testifying for or against a particular bill, the Environmental Group would go down, and -- since they all spoke for the same voice from a company viewpoint. They also had the charge by the Executive Committee that they would look over any appropriations for major changes or new plants, to be sure that the effluent in the flow chart, whether it be air, or solid, or water, was correct; instead of putting an arrow to sewer, it would, the outflow would have to be directed to a suitable method of disposal, or reclamation or treatment. Q. When you say Executive Committee, to what are you referring? A. The group of five people that ran the company. Q. How did the Environmental Health GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI WATER PCB-SD0000030179 i. Group's responsibilities differ from the 2 Industrial Hygiene? 3 A . Oh, a great deal, because they ! 4 dealt with company-wide m' atters . Industrial I 5 hygiene was really a plant matter; you know, 1 ! 6 they acted in the same fashion the safety J 7 inspector did at a plant. They worried about 8 the atmosphere in the individual plant, but 9 the Environmental Group dealt with 1 0 company-wide problems, although they were 1 1 consulted by the individual plants as to what 1 2 was the current thinking as far as disposal 1 3 was concerned. 1 4 Q. Do you know who Jack Garrett is? . -i 15 A. Yes. He was a member of the j 1 6 Industrial Hygiene Department. 1 7 Q. And to whom did he report? 1 8 A. Wheeler. 1 9 Q. And Mr. Wheeler reported to you? 2 0 A. That ' s correct . 2 1 Q. Do you know a n L. A . Watt? 2 2 A. I knew him 4 5 years ago, or -- he 2 3 was a member of the Technical Service 2 4 Department when Monsanto had a population, a 2 5 an employee population of 7,000 people. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MIS SOURI 7R WATER PCB-SD0000030180 Q. And what was the responsibility of 2 the Technical Services Department? 3 A. Well, a t that time, it was 4 called -- well, he was there before I came 5 there, and his background was that of a 6 pharmaceutical chemist, I believe, and he had 7 handled some of the problems for the Organic 8 Division before I showed up. 9 Q. When you showed up, where was he 1 0 relative to you in the reporting lines for 1 1 the company? 1 2 A. No connection at all. I reported 1 3 to the plant manager at the Plant A, which 14 was subsequently called the Queeny plant, and 1 5 Watt reported -- I was just the plain company 1 6 physician there, and Watt was in the general 1 7 office in the Organics Division where he 1 8 reported. I don't know if he reported to 1 9 Marketing or what, but the Technical Service 2 0 Group was a group that helped Sales by -- 2 1 helped the Marketing Group by giving them 2 2 technical advice as to how to use Monsanto's 2 3 products or try to introduce new products to 2 4 the customer. 2 5 Q. Would Mr. Watt ever discuss with GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MISSOURI 736 WATER PCB-SD0000030181 1 you the kind o f 1 a n g u age t h a t should be used 2 in any m a t e ri a 1 s that might b e prepared for 3 distribution t o users of Mon s a nto products ? 4 A . Ye s , after I was t h ere for a year 5 or so, I mean, we got -- I got called over to j .I 6 the general office because I was the only | 7 Monsanto doctor around, and even though I was 8 a part-time doctor who was being paid by the 9 Queeny plant, so yes, we talked about various 1 0 things; about what we needed, what we needed 1 1 to know as far as toxicity is concerned, what 1 2 warning label should be put on, what should 1 3 be put in bulletins and things of that sort 1 4 that have medical connotations. 1 5 Q. Am I correct in understanding, 1 6 then, when you first started with Monsanto, 1 7 you were a part-time physician? 1 8 A. Yes, I was part-time till after 1 9 the service, after I became full-time in '46. 2 0 MR. INNELLI: Let's mark this as 2 1 Kelly 29. 2 2 (Kelly Deposition Exhibit 29 2 3 marked for identification.) 2 4 (Witness peruses said 2 5 document. ) GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 737 WATER PCB-SD0000030182 1 'EY MR. I N KELLI : 2 Q Dr . Kelly_ ,. for the record could 3 you identify this document? 4 A. This is a document dated October 5 the 11th, 1 9 3 7, Kelly Exhibit 2 9 , by 6 L. A. Watt. It's a memorandum of -- doesn't 7 show who it went to, but it discusses a 8 publication in bulletins or incorrespondence 9 concerning Aroclors, the toxic effect and how 1 0 to avoid it. 1 1 Q. Do you recall any conversation 1 2 with Mr. Watt regarding the subject? 1 3 A. I don't recall this one 1 4 specifically, but I know I -- he was probably 1 5 one of the -- my closest contact in the 1 6 general office, and in fact, when I went into 1 7 the service, I gave him Medical Department 1 8 files on the various products. We were 1 9 relatively unsophisticated back in '38, '39, 2 0 '40. Yes, I, I'm sure I talked to him about 2 1 Aroclors . 2 2 Q. Why would he come to you to 2 3 discuss Aroclors? 2 4 A. Beg your pardon? 2 5 Q. Why would he come to you to GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MIS S OUR I 738 WATER PCB-SD0000030183 discuss Aroclors during that time period? 2 MR. M A LIN : Objection . 3 Answer the question if you think 4 you understand it. 5 A Well, I think he wanted to get a 6 p h y s i c i a n ' s input , and at that part i c u 1 a r 7 time, I was the con tact the company had w i t h 8 Drinker who did the work , the early work o n 9 the P C B ' s . He did it in 19 3 7 and ' 3 8, I 1 0 believe , and I was up at that meeting, so h e 1 1 came to me as probably the most knowledgeable 1 2 person as far as the toxicological aspect of 1 3 Aroclors would be concerned. 1 4 BY MR. INNELLI: 1 5 Q - Now, did Mr . Wa 11 , when he spoke 1 6 with you , share any i n q u i r ie s that had been 1 7 made by users of Monsanto products? 1 8 A . Not that I r e c a 11. Once the 1 9 Aroclor problem surfaced at Drinker, I 2 0 received a lot of people's files that were 2 1 happy to unload them on me. 2 2 Q. And when was that? 2 3 A. '37, '38. 2 4 Q. During the '37, '38 time frame, 2 5 did Monsanto have a Medical Director? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST . LOUIS, MIS SOURI 739 I WATER PCB-SD0000030184 1 A. Nc sir, they did not. 2 Q. Do you know a Jane-- a Jay 3 Springgate? 4 A . Yes. He was, worked for the -- I 5 don't know whether it's called the Organic 6 Division at that time or the Monsanto 7 Chemicals Company, but he was originally, I 8 thought, a plant manager at one of their 9 smaller plants, and then he came up to the 1 0 general office as a, I don't know, a product 1 1 manager or something of some group, I don't 1 2 know which one. 13 Q. And what about T. Ford? 1 4 A . T . Ford? I v a g uely reme m b e r the 1 5 name. I don' t know an y t h i n g else a bout him 1 6 Q P . S. Park? D o you know a n 1 7 individual by that name? 1 8 A. Yes. He was a lawyer who is not 1 9 with the company anymore, I don't know where 2 0 he is, but he sort of gravitated into the 21 environmental law aspect. What's the date of 2 2 that memorandum? 2 3 Q . 1 9 6 9. 2 4 A . '69? 2 5 Q . Right. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 740 WATER PCB-SD0000030185 U. A . I think he was doing e n v i r o n rr e n a _ 2 aspect of law a t that time. 3 Q Do you know whether Park s first 4 name? 5 A . Phocion, P-h-o-c-i-o-n . ii 6 Q And how old a gentleman was he? 7 A . Younger than I . I would gather 8 he's in his sixties , I suppose. 9 Q Do you know where he is today? 1 0 A . I thought he was in the private 1 1 practice of law somepla ce around. I don't 1 2 I thought in St. Louis. I don't know. As I 1 3 say, I have not seen him or talked to him 1 4 since 1974. 1 5 Q. Did Monsanto have a task force 1 6 with any of the companies for whom it 1 7 produced PCB's? 1 8 MR. MALIN: Objection to the form 1 9 of the question. I don't understand what 2 0 that means. 2 1 If you think you understand that 2 2 question. Doctor, go ahead. 2 3 A. I'm not so sure I understand. I 2 4 thought a task force would have to have a 2 5 particular objective, and I do know that GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 741 WATER PCB-SD0000030186 0 Monsanto cooperated with members of the 2 electrical industry. I know there was one 3 bulletin written by Monsanto people in 4 conjunction with people from G E and 5 Westinghouse on the generic term of Askaral, 6 which is the generic term for transformer 7 dielectric fluids, just as Aroclor was 8 Monsanto's copyright name, and Pyranol was 9 GE, and Inerteen was Westinghouse, and 1 0 somebody else something else, Askaral was the 1 1 generic term for all electric, dielectric 1 2 fluids . 1 3 Q. And during what time period did 1 4 Monsanto work with General Electric and 1 5 Westinghouse on, report on Askaral? 1 6 A. I don't know. I mean, I'd been 1 7 shown a bulletin at some of these 1 8 depositions; I don't know if there was a date 1 9 on it, but I don't know. I neverworked with 2 0 the group. 2 1 Q . Was there a group inside of 2 2 Monsanto that dealt with the PCB issues? 2 3 A. Well, when the environmental 2 4 aspect became prominent, Bill Papageorge was 2 5 the point man on it, and he had input from GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 742 WATER PCB-SD0000030187 Research, Medical and Legal, and I guess you 2 could call it a task force . 3 Q . Did you participate? 4 A . No, Wheeler did. I mean, I 5 participated if they came and asked me about 6 something, but Wheeler was the Medical 7 Departmentperson on it. 8 Q. Did representatives of the Medical 9 Department or the Legal Department and Mr. 1 0 Papageorge meet on a regular basis, to your 1 1 knowledge? 12 A. I can't answer that. Will 1 3 Papageorge be here tomorrow? 1 4 MR. MALIN: Yes. 1 5 BY MR. INELLI: ' 1 6 Q. Dr. Kelly, do you know a Mr. 1 7 Dietrich? 1 8 A . Dietrich? How do you spell that ? 1 9 No, I don ' t know. 2 0 Q D-i-e-t-r-i - c - h . 2 1 A . It does not ring a bell with m e . 2 2 0 . How about a Mr. Emery? E-m- e - r - y 2 3 A . I have a vague recollection o f 2 4 somebody whose name is close to Emery who was 2 5 a chemist or something at Anniston, but I GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 743 WATER PCB-SD0000030188 i don ' t know much more about it. What date is 2 that one ? 3 Q Also the 1969 time P e 4 A . I can't hear you. 5 Q Also the 1969 time P e 6 A . But I re ally can't b e 7 Emery, o r Dietrich, either . 8 Q Mr . J . R . E c k , E - c - k ? 9 A . Yes. He originally w 1 0 manager a t the Tren ton, Michig a n 1 1 which just made detergents;nothing to do 1 2 with PCB's, but he eventually became Director 1 3 of Manufacturing and a vice-president of the 14 company. He retired from the company, I 1 5 guess, pretty close to the time I retired, 1 6 although he was younger, and is living 1 7 someplace in Florida. I have not spoken to 1 8 him since 1974. 1 9 Q. How about Mr. John Mason? 2 0 A. John who? 2 1 Q. Mason, M-a-s-o-n. 2 2 A. Yes, he was a man originally from 2 3 our Great Britain subsidiary who came to 2 4 work, I think, a s a manufacturer and director 2 5 of the chemical c ompany or the industrial GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 744 WATER PCB-SD0000030189 1 chemical company, whatever they called it in 2 those days. 3 Q. And Mr. Gumming Paton, 4 C-u-m-m-i-n-g, Paton , P-a-t-o-n? 5 A ,. I remember the name,, but I forget 6 what he did. I thought he was in marketing . 7 MR . INNELLI : Okay, why don't we 8 take a five-minute break. I think we're 9 pretty close to being done. 1 0 (Recess) 1 1 MR. COHEN: That's all we have for 1 2 today . 1 3 MR . INNELLI : Dr . Kelly, thanks . 1 4 I have no further questions. 1 5 Anybody else have any questions? 1 6 MR . McMANUS: Dr. Kelly, I don 1 7 have any quest ions for you. 1 8 MR . COX: No questions. 1 9 MR . MCLAUGHLIN : No questions. 2 0 MS . GROSS: No questions. 2 1 MS . COONELLY: No questions. 2 2 MR . MALIN: No questions. 2 3 MR . COHEN: Do you have any 2 4 questions , Doc tor? 2 5 (Whereupon, a t 4:00 p . m . , the GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MIS SOURI 745 WATER PCB-SD0000030190 1 deposition was concluded. ' 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 1 6 COMES NOW THE WITNESS, EMMET 1 7 KELLY, a n d having read the foregoing 1 8 transcri Pt of the deposition taken on the 1 9 16th day o f July, 1991, acknowledges by 2 0 signature hereto that it is a true and 2 1 accurate transcript of the testimony given on 2 2 the date hereinabove mentioned. 23 24 25 GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 746 WATER PCB-SD0000030191 1 EMMET KELLY 2 3 4 Subscribed and sworn to before me 5 this__________ day of ________________________ 19 9 1. 6 7 My Commission expires: _____________________________________ 8 9 10 1 1 Notary Public 12 13 14 1 5 STATE OF MISSOURI ) 16 SS : ) 17 CITY OF ST. LOUIS ) 1 8 I J. Bryan Jordan, notary public 1 9 in and for the State of Missouri, duly 2 0 commissioned, qualified and authorized to 2 1 administeroaths and to certify depositions, 2 2 do hereby certify that pursuant to agreement 2 3 in the civil cause now pending and 2 4 undetermined in the Court of Common Pleas of 2 5 Philadelphia County, State of Pennsylvania, GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MIS SOURI 747 WATER PCB-SD0000030192 1 and in the United States District Court for 2 the Eastern District of Pennsylvania, to be I 3 used in the trial of said cause in said IlI 4 court, I was attended at the offices of Brown 5 & James, in the City of St. Louis, State of 6 Missouri , by the aforesaid witness and by the 7 aforesaid attorneys, on the 1 6 t h d a y of July, 8 19 9 1. 9 The said witness, being of sound 1 0 mind and being by me first carefully examined 1 1 and duly cautioned and sworn to testify the 1 2 truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 1 3 truth in the case aforesaid, thereupon 1 4 testified as is shown in the foregoing 1 5 transcript, said testimony being by me 1 6 reported in shorthand and caused to be 1 7 transcribed into typewriting, and that the 1 8 foregoing pages correctly set forth the 1 9 testimony of the aforementioned witness, 2 0 together with the questions propounded by 2 1 counsel and remarks and objections thereto, 2 2 and is in all respects a full, true, correct 2 3 and complete transcript of the questions 2 4 propounded to and the answers given by said 2 5 witness; that signature of the deponent was GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST . LOUIS, MIS S OUR I 748 WATER PCB-SD0000030193 1 not waived by agreement of counsel. 2 I further certify that I am not o f I 3 c o u n s e 1 or attorney f or either of the part i e s 4 t o said suit, not r e1 ated to nor intereste d 5 i n any of the parties or their attorneys, 6 Witness my hand and notarial se a 1 7 a t S t . Louis, M i s s o u r i , this _2/5?tday of 8 .Ld&ukin. 19 9 1. 9 My commission expires July 20, 1 0 19 9 4 11 12 1 3 Notary Public in and for the 1 4 State of Missouri 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 749 WATER PCB-SD0000030194