Document NEv1eBNEpyzMXeO9DzKodBwwQ

IN THE SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF OELAWARE IN AND FOR NEW' CASTLE COUNT'S - -................................... - -.............................................................x MONSANTO COMPANY, : Plaintiff, v. .AETNA CASUALTY SURETY COMPANY, tf -- 01 2. / Oer .ant Civil Acticn Number 38C-JA-113-1-CV NON-ARBITRATION -x DEPOSITION OF R. FMMET KELLY , VO LITE 2! Wilmington, Delaware Thursday, January 2 3, 1993 Daccsiticn cf . iMMET JELLY, callad zzz zurrner Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. Nationwide Coverage 202-34/-3700 o00-33o-oe>4b 410-^84-2110 WATER PCB-SD0000062869 APPEARANCES: JOHN M. 3RAY, ESQ. Schwalb, Donnenfeld, Bray & Silbert 1025 Thomas Jefferson Street, N.W. Suits 300 Washington, D. C. 20007 On behalf of Plaintiff Monsanto Company. JOSEPH G. MANTA, ESQ. Manta and Welge One Commerce Square Thirty-Seventh Floor 2005 Market Street Philadelphia, Pennsylvania On behalf of liberty Mutual Insurance Company. 13123 RICHARD L. McCCNNELL, JR., Wiley, Rein & Fielding 1776 K Street, N.W. " Washington, D. C. 20006 On behalf of The Travelers Indemnity Company. ESQ. 10IS J. SCHIFFER, ESQ. Nussbaum i Wald One Thomas Oirole, N.W. Suite '200 Washington, 0. 2. 22005 On behalf of Certain Cnderwrit at Lloyd's of London, Englan m t) - 3r Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. Nationwide Coverage 102-34/ 00 SOO-336-ookj 410-684-25d0 WATER PCB-SD0000062870 WITNESS Emmet Kelly Resumed) by Mr. by Mr. by Ms. by Mr. McConnell Manta Schiffer McConnell examination 192 290 337 390 EXHIBITS KELLY IEPOSITICN NUMBER IDENTIEIEI Exhibit 2 7 - 3/24/90 Af fidavit Exhibit 23 - March, 1972 Engineering Service Instructions Exhibit 29 - Article 200 213 216 Exhibit 30 - 2/6/51 Memo Exhibit 3 1 - 3/25/53 Memo Exhibit 3 2 - 1/13/71 Memo Exhibit 23 - 3/13/40 Letter 222 227 231 LJ 2 Exhibit 34 - 4/12/61 Letter Exhibit 3 5 - 3/25/75 Memo Exhibit 3 5 - ~/24/74 Memo Exhibit 3 7 - 3/12/53 Memo 251 2 61 256 Exhibit 3 3 - 13/5/50 Meeting minutes cf Medical Adviser/ Committee 2?: Exhibit 3 9 - 3/22/57 Memo Exhibit -s C/ - 11/20/57 Letter Exhibit 1 t - 1/15/48 Minutes cf Joint Meeting cf General Safety Committee Medical Advisor-/ Committee ui2 U. w J Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 102-347*3700 300-336-664 410-664-2550 WATER PCB-SD0000062871 192 PROCEEDINGS Whereupon, R. EMMET KELLY resumed the stand and, having been previously ouiy sworn, was examined and testified further as follows: EXAMINATION (Continued; 3Y MR. MC CONNELL: 1 Good naming, Dr. Kelly. A Good morning, sir. Q Dr. Kelly, do you remember some rime ago you were contacted by an investigator from Clarence Kelley Investigation Services? A Yes, I remember it. 1 Dio he contact vou in person or osll you on one ceieoncne A Teiepnor.e. C Do you remember his name? A Clarence Keilev. I remember 10 oecause I thought he was associated with the RBI. Z Did Clarence .Keilev call you, or was it an investigator working in Clarence Kelley's investigation of o D Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. Vationwiae Coveraee 002-347-3700 ' 500-336-oe46 410-064-2550 WATER PCB-SD0000062872  Q2 A I can't answer that . I don 't recall. Q You don ' t r<~z L ' . Do you r emember 'when this telephone call occurred? A No, sir, I don't. Q Do you remember the year? A No, sir. Q When he called, did he tell you that he was an investigator with the Clarence Kelley investigation fittt? A I can't answer that. I mean, I don't know. I don't recall how he introduced himself, but i just remember that Clarence Kelley because I think that Clarence Kelley was in charge of the FBI about six months before,, and I really didn't know if it was the same fellow or not or what his association with any investigative group was, except chat it was with the F3I. 2 In the course of the telephone call, though, he cold you that he was with the Clarence Kelley investigation firm? A I don't knew if he told me if he was with it or he wasn't. 5 It was either Clarence Kelley or one of his investigative staff? Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. Nationwide Coveraee 202-347-3700 300-336-6o46 410-664-2550 WATER PCB-SD0000062873 422o . ;b 34 A That's right. Q And he told you he was an investigator? A That's correct. Q He was candid and forthrightabout that? A Yes. Q Do you know where the Clarence Kelley firm i located, sir' Mo, sir. I thouah Wet S ,\dnSd5 Q .3 . 10 A Is it? 11 And Clarence Keiiev rs.the former director 12 the Federal 3ureau of Investioation? A That was mv irvoressicn . .And you knew that ever, cetera rent _em.an ; a _ _ea Yes, sir. He was in the newspapers quite . relieve, arcuna mat time. :id vou ask anv ouestiens of roc--' a wnsn r.e :a:-ea vou, sir/ What did he 'want and what are vou asking me rut? What do vou want to do wicr. me' Z Did he answer those ouestiens? Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. \ationwiae Coverage :j:-347-3700 800-336-oo46 410-684-2330 WATER PCB-SD0000062874 A Yes . ion'- exactly knew what said, now identified himself, but my relationship what was not bothering him, but what he was interested. Q Was he candid and forthright about telling you that? A Yes, as far as I know. Q Can you remember any other things that you asked the investigator scout? A 1 think I asked him, well, who do you represent? Are you investigating me for Monsanto cr for somebody else? And then when he said somebody else, 1 said well, here's the lawyer you talk to. Q So he told you he wasn't working for Monsanto? A That's correct. Q .And do you remember anyt.tmg else he told you? A No, sir. Q Do you remember whether you askea him whether this was the same Clarence Kelley wno was t - e f o mer director of the FBI? A I don't knew whether I a skad him that or r.ot. that? Do you remember that he told you anyth ing about Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. Nationwide Coverage 202*347-3700 500-336-oo4d 410-684- 25r0 WATER PCB-SD0000062875 i. -- 135 A I den`t recall. Q And he told you he wasn't: working ::r lonsantc; A To che best of my recollection; chat's correct. Q Did he cell you chat his client was an insurance o company? A I do r.ct rememcer anything about any association that r.e had with anyccdy outside of Monsanto. He wasn't 9 reoresenting Monsanto, ana I don't know if he identified :o who his client was. Q Did you tail the investigator that you wanted to 12 call the Monsanto law department? A I told him -- vss, 1 told him I would call or he s nc u _ o c a _ _ t nerr.. 1 what was ms response? A 2kav. Z ri$ 2 2. 3 r. ' Z 2 2 4 0 C 2 2 2 Z3 32 , 2 L 2. 3 9? A Ho, I don't t.tink sc. There wasr. t a r.v h.ass_e about it. Z Z3n veu rsmsmes-- 3.nv-r.2.32 -bIss y~u sdi- nu.ir.Lncj - =) l ' *- *-* a * r T .-v .-ulVwf.l3CT 9130 Z332 wridu / Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. Nationwide Coverage 1J1-347-37C0 S00-336-ot>4o 410-664-1330 WATER_PCB-SD0000062876 ' Q7 Q Can you ramemcer any g aise that you aaid du a that call? A No. It wasn't a very prolonged conversation. 1i It. didn t strike me as a very important talepr.cne call. Q Do you rememoer how long the call was? 5 A Less than five minutes. Q Can you remember anything else at ail that the atcr said cunnc that call? A No, sir, I con't. j Q Did you give the investigator any information at 1 all about Monsanto? 2 A No, sir. Q Or about any of Monsanto's chemicals? A No, sir. I 2r about any of Monsanto's plants? A No, sir. ^ Or dbcut, Arv 'fcn^anto ' 5 c^6r- icr.s? A No, sir. C You don't oive him anv infcrmatitr. vnatscever about Monsanto? A That's correct. 1 .And you understood that the person calling you Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. nationwide Coveraee 102-347-3700 500-336-6046 410-664-2530 WATER_PCB-SD0000062877 19 3 was an investigator? A Yes, but I didn't exactly know what "the function of -- what he was going to investigate. Q You understood that you could choose to talk with him or not? A Oh, certainly. If there was a voice on the telephone I could always hang up. And you chose not to talk with him at that point; is that right, sir? A That's correct. Q Did you call the Monsanto law department about this, Dr. Kelly? A Yes, I did. And who aid vou talk to there? her Tom Sistiine or Dave Snivel-/. Q Was that iminediatelv after the call that you cot from the investigator? A I think it was on the same day, out I oon't knew it ne nung up, ana I ca~_ea aim immediately. Q Did you later talk again on the phene with the investigator? A I don't rememcer taiki.nc with him at any time Ace-Fedhr.al Reporters, Ixc. \ationwiae Coverage -02-3-47-3/00 ^00-336-oo4b 410-684-23r0 WATER PCB-SD0000062878  QQ mors than ones. Q Did you offer :o talk with the investigator if he paid you your normal hourly rate for consulting? A No, I would want to know what he wanted to talk about, whether or not there was any conflict of interest, and after all, I'm not even sure if I had been apprised of the fact of this case at that time. The question of cayment never entered into it. Q You do some consulting work, don't you, Dr. Kelly? A That's correct. Q And you have a normal hourly rate for that work? A That's correct. 2 And it's $200 an hour? A Thar's correct. 1 You don't recall offering to talk with the investigator if you were paid your normal hourly rate? A I bee your cardcn? o veu reca_l order ,< witr. me mvestioai you were paid your normal hourly rata? ure I didn't. I mean, I did not talk to about discussion the case at ail until after I taikec Ace-Federal Reporters, L\c. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 t00-336-oo4o 410-684-25^0 WATER PCB-SD0000062879 00 to one of the Monsanto lawyers. So I .must have known about the case because when 1 toid him to tail Bistiine or Sniveiy, they must have apprised me of this case and that I may be called as a witness in this case. Q So you already knew about this case when the investigator called? A I must have because I knew who to refer him to. 2 To one best of vour recollection, Sr. Kelly, tit you ever speak with one investigator again? A No, sir, I do not rememter speaking with him more than once. Q At any time, did you ever provide any information about Monsanto to the investigator? A No, sir, I never tit. MR. MC SCNNELL: Sr. Ke_lv, let me shew you a document which we will mark as Kelly Exhibit 1". ` 'Kelly Exhibit I- identified. 3Y MR. MC CONNELL: 2 Co you recognise tms , Sr. Kelly, as an affidavit that you creviced on or acout Kav 14, 1990? A Yes, sir. 2 And is that your signature on the second cage? Ace-Federal Reporters, L\c. Nationwide Coveraee -02-347*3700 300-336-oo4o 410-684-2550 WATER PCB-SD0000062880 201 A Yes, it is. Q Do you recall who you provided this' affidavit to ? A No, I don't. Q Did you work with the Monsanto attorneys on this affidavit, sir? A I didn't draw this up by mvseif, so I must have, out I don't know wnioh attorney I worked ./ion. Q Could it have been Mr. Snivel-/? A ' It could have been Sniveiv. It could have been Bistiine. Q Do you believe it was one of those two? A I think so. ^ _et r.e direct -/our attention, -r. .\ei_v, to paragraph 5 of the affidavit. You say in paragraph 5 ' askea on whose behalf the caller was working. I was informed bv the caller that he did not work on Monsanto Company's cehalf ana that his client was an insurance comcanv. ; ou for Monsanto; a earlier he told vou he at' t ~> :hat wnat ot work Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 300-336-6646 410-634-2530 WATER_PCB-SD0000062881 That: ' ~ri U -- ' - y ; ^ A Z Ana is it also correct -hat; he :;.i you his client was an insurance company? A Weil, presumably this was six months after he 3 a Had, and I'm sura mv nemcrv was bettsr man, anc I vcuia sav an is is moira cc Ob r* *31 in mv rac: :av Ana you ceiieve that the Lirioavit is correct, A Yes, sir. 1 ao you agree tr.at tne investigate: his client was an insurance company? A Will vou reoeat that. 3^>*aa me mvssticatcr tic te_. tr.at ms o_ier.t was an insurance rent a: ; es . isurance contracts for Monsanto iver Ace-Federal Reporters, L\c. Vmomvtae Coverage 202-34/ -37G0 >'iX}-336-<?o46 -t 1U-*>s4-2or0 WATER PCB-SD0000062882 :02 Q Did you ever :artic::acs ir. negotiating insurance contracts fcr Monsanto? ' A No, sir, I did not. Q That was the responsibility of the insurance ieoartment ? \ ~n 0 TI 7 3 C C Z Z 0 C Z . 1 Who was the r.eac of Monsanto's insurance cecartn.enc curmc one tirr.e '.'tu were activs.v emcicved at Monsanto? A Towards the end of m.v career "with Monsanto, it was 3ob Chapman. Prior to that -- I don't knew if he would be called the head -- there was a George Wingard, 'W-i-n-cr-a-r-d. I thcucht Dhacman reccrted to 'Wingard, cut 0 n 0 c * r. 0 u o r* a 'iV'gr*0 C 3C C r, - - :.70s , 2u u ~ z c n * ~ z r 01 r r. 0rn0 s . 1 Did vou ever have a.ov role at ail m obtaining insurance coverage for Monsanto? A No, sir. ^ ZL0 veu ever .?.ss - v.'izr. Tr^vsi^rs cz Travelers ceoc 1 e in conr.eetion with cotaini.oc insurance no ver met Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. .02-34/ -3/ 00 \atiorv.s ice Coverage ^00-336-oo4fc 410-664-23t0 WATER PCB-SD0000062883 'rave isrs '.'as wrier. n.oev sane an coard in 1 3 ~ 7 ar 13 7 ^ n was an. accenciisned fact an n.nan nine. They were insurer ?hev iaiiswed Liberty Mutual. nu 3id vou meet with nhem just one nine or nore nban n.nan A I knew defi.uineiv ane nine, and I nave some vague racc.lscnian ar a second meeting, a ecu renemcer. Wner. am n.nan meeni.no naxe ::a; A Q' Q Where did in take placei A An Monsanto offices. Wnc was an n.oe r.eeni; mow wnc was nr.ere iron :e was sonecoov :ran renemcer his name? Mo, 1 con'n. aan' n renemcer n.oe names a r n .0 e :sec_e wnc were Me, sir. w ere was one Tra more n.nan ane.- Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. \<uiomviae Coveraee '00 <00-336-0040 10-664-2550 WATER PCB-SD0000062884 A More rhan ere . I dor.'t crow row mar.v Q what was tr.e curccse of tr.e meetir.c'? A Frankly, I raver -- I thought it was ;ust to trcduce us to the Travelers people. 2 Was there any discussion about tr.e sc ope of surance coverage ? A I don't r ememcer any suer, discussion. < Was there ary tiscussior about tre te rms or naitic.ns of tr.e ir.surar.ee contract? A I ear' t remember. I didn't pav mu or. attention it because it wasn't any of my problem. Q If there was any discussion about that, you r.' t remember it row? Ace-Federal Reporters, L\c. Nationwide Coverage :32-34r-3"0 300-336-oo-k> 10-664-2530 WATER PCB-SD0000062885 services curing mac maecing.A Mo, sir, I ccr.'c remember. 2 As we sic here coday, you can's rememrer rea. anything at ail about che substance of chat meeting? A That's correcc. 2 Mow, you said you had a vague race deed rn c: maybe another neecing. Ian you ceil me a.nycr.ir.g ac ai. u, oc'j" vnetr.er ir.an rr,s0 -1 r.c *1 cccldcs ? A Whetner ic cccx dace? A Oh, I believe it did, but I'm net scientifically certain of it. I believe it had something cc cc with - veil, I'd just be assuming chir.gs . I don'c knew che entire of char -- my reccileccicn is chat m was scmetnmg cc cc vich Travelers anc some cf cur induscriai, nygier.e ceccle visiemg some cf cur manufacturing sices. ^ 3o veu 'zsmsme0invcccv 31.50 " rcr. Mcnsar.nc v/nc wouli have been a: than r.eenir.r? A vheeier wcuic nave ceer. cnere . ^ *'1a*. vft601 r ^0 '*0cih ca 1 h 3 d a .rtrr. 0 r. th 1 es . Anvcccv :m Men sane: Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. Nationwide Coverage - 02*34/ *3/CO S00-33o-oo46 4 iU-684-2o>rO WATER PCB-SD0000062886 - A I don't remember if Dhapman was ever there or " net. - -m -1 Anybody else? 4 A No, sir. I don't remember any other names. 5 Q Do you remember who was there from Travelers? m A No, sir. - < Do vou rememoer whether there was one or more ? A No, sir. J Anybody from Marsn Me? - A I don't think so. 1 don't recall.. 1 certain 12 don't recall any name from Marsh Me. 13 Q Do you remember anything at ail about she 14 ciscussicn at, that meeting, sir? 15 A 1 think it was yust a preliminary tiscussicn, 15 preparatory to visiting some of the plants to see what 1" manufacturing -- net problems -- what manufacturing 13 tepartments were -- what they were ooi.ng m the plants. 13 1 Do you rememcer aevening that the Monsanto 15 oecp_e said at that meeting, Dr. Nelly? A Weil, 1 think they said if you want to go arcunc, we'd be naccv to oc around with you. Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. \ancmwiue Coverage 202-34/ -3/ 00 ,'00-336-ot>46 4!0-o84~2- ?0 WATER PCB-SD0000062887 '^Q :u rememce: Traveiars caoc.e salt: A Weil, no, I don't. I .tear., with the exception that I believe they said veil, yean, let's get together and figure tut vnen we're going to go around ana see thes* oiaces. .And that's ail vou tan remember about ana: -.eetmc / That's it rr* auar .si.cn rr 9 0 ti w i c n 9 r. v travelers ceoc.e :or any ourcose A may have, but I don't recall. 07g r* -- 3 :v-Viwt. ^ r- c 'QP' :ir,e ; - 9ca -- -- ne" ar wan vcu ramemcer :ea.:r.as a: a-- wi:: No Mcnsa: No, sir . o r* V a V 9 19 2T S ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, L\'C. Nacionu ioe Cw*. er.iee 002-34/ -3/ 00 'ii)0-33n*nrHo 410-t>84-2or0 WATER_PCB-SD0000062888 snoir.eers -r'4'/ C'J^CCSS A No, sir. .Any cncr.e contacts witr. taem.' A I bea vour oardon? )id vou have any onone contacts vitn any Travelers ancmeers ? icn 't remember anv. m.cancs r There mav rememre: CO :ou rememoer it tow, 11 A No, I don't. - u 2 Tic you have anything at all to do, Tr. Kelly, with cuttinc toaetner encineenr.a service ms- is : c: n -rs ^ t-c vnat va; .vou_c vou receat : es , ?itn anv ancmasrin: vou nave anv: me Travelers 9nciran>'3 No , .mev/ wna' *e__ , me mc_isn, mew wnat a < - o . .3 >- c -- :r what Monsanto included under that Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. Nationwtae Coverage 202-347-3700 400-336-oe4<j 410-664-2330 WATER PCB-SD0000062889 oart.cu^ar :an, cur I a:ar.' o .nave anytr.ar.a :: :c vi:r. _ a no nactar vhac :: vas. ` . MR. MC ZCNNELL: Zouid you read nan.-; one last part of his answer on ihis. The reDoroer read ohe record as 3r*" o q din f MR. MC CONNELL: Dr. Kelly, let me 3new you - a courier.!: which we wiil mark as Kelly Exhitic 22 . E Kelly Exhibit Z 3 identified 1 3Y MR. MC ZCNNELL: - - Q Zr. Kei 1y, this is a copy of one er. - oar ' ~ rj - 1 ser/ice instruct! ons we've been talking about . and Z knew 12 you've told me char you didn't have anything oo do wi f :nese, ana - "as: van* v;::. :r.ese ' o r '*' -- o :cn::ra :r.a: 'avo bs ' > an^ ^ oo >~ No, sir, *n Zr. Keilv, let me ask you ;aca exnieio an one uccer r. ' 3 ~ t-o a r rs/-1 V a -- ^ ' 0` race, a- Ace-Federal Reporters, I\c. \anonwtae Coverage -02-34/-_v 00 SOO-336-oo4o 410-oo4-2550 WATER_PCB-SD0000062890 -t 4 "do r.ct :eve:c; co:.::;:r. intcrmaticn at ,ccat;:ns . It will be obtained from Monsanto corporate headquarters, a.nc avaiuatea by the chemical unit, dome office. ' Do you recall, Dr. Kelly, that the Travelers engineers were instructed not to develop any pollution information at the Monsanto locations? A That they wi * -c -ecu 1 ir.srruc ted not to dev -J ^ *3 0 ) 0 rs locations? - a Travelers er.oir.eers w er: -- A Instructed ' By Monsanto 12 A Mo, sir. I .-mow anvt: incut it 14 So tnat was CISCUSS ea in the meet me tonics tnat was a -- : i A Mo, sir. - TC. Would tnis I 2 M.cnsar.t c ot.ner than y ;a at I ? A Yes, sir. t certain*-/ wasn't cv r.e - Dr. Kelly, ic.< f/rer.e crones: 'ex as I _ tv c * a n t. .v n a t is s' . r. :.e..y Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. \anomviae Coverage 202-34/-3/00 ^00-336-0046 410-664-2^^0 WATER_PCB-SD0000062891 9ns is e .ti c sm x at remain3 ins e ver emvibenzen.s :c scvrsne. 1 2 whac's in chat chemica i mixture, Dr. Kelly? - A I don't knew. I mean, I think it's pretty we 11 5 ill-defin ed. Id's sort cf like a soup down mere. - It would contain a wid 8 '/ari.S'cv ci r.vcirccar bens ? 1 A --1 U, a ^ -N o ~Z'-' t ? 2 Hycrocarocns :oa: are isrivse from z lLI J*> A i 0 s / s L r . i 2 .Ana do you recall, Dr. Kelly, some cf the t hints 2 mac woul d have been contained i n that mixture? 2 A Sure. Probably some r esiduai catalysts. 4 D -- -- n ' * * some " e s c d u a I. benzene . ' c: r' -p o '"^S 12U -- r ut -- - ?^nq t 0 < Sulfur? - A If mere were sulfur i - are cil sar-aia, yss .Anvtni.no else vou can v~ 8 n smr0r ? 2 A ho, sir. - 2 There would be some tc ;c:;:y rcncerr.s arcur me cats.vst, residual, catalvst? here's ab e scan a ra c S2T9 . Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. -3/ 00 Nattonwtae Cj'. erase i00-336-ot>+o 410-^64-2^^0 WATER PCB-SD0000062892 yes . 2 And there would be toxicity concerns`about tbs benzene ? A Well, not particularly. We did have acute toxicity testing of the material and we knew enough abou' it, how to handle it safely. So there was some concern, but it wasn't looked uDon as a maicr toxic element. 1 What incut the -on *t o n o A What about it? Was there a toxicity concern acout etnyicenzene A It's not a terribly toxic compound. Q But it is toxic? I beg your pardon? wei_, acam, lecents: wnose te: using/ _t's not as toxic as cenze.ns ? Benzene is verv toxic? 's toxic. Aaam, I nave to to cacx to say vou ccnsicer tne tcxi: relationsnit tc tne exocsure / It vou use benzene in sr.ce co_isn, to vou ^ Cn c ' C -- T-------a r : x i; I; vet use cenzene maxing styrene, it wasn't toxic m cur use cf tne Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. :o:-:4r-?7co Watiomviae Coverage 300-336-ook> *10-684-2330 WATER PCB-SD0000062893 ~' 1 rnatsriii , _n ;as:: toxicity. rut ".".are was ".or. anv :art;:u;ar axccsure Wou_: ;ncsrr.sa a rout exrcsure tvr< :ars _t a*_ uecer.cs an me exposure. vou heating it up in a room the size of a small closet, I think vou wouldn't want to be breathino it. if vou were vou wouldn't be toncerned about the toxicity. if you're tutting it in a lancfill of the type we usee at Texas, i wasn't concerned about the toxicity. Q Let me ask you, Dr. Kelly, during the course of rur deocsition, you've described seme materials as tex :< a x Moderately ttx What is flux t kha Flux e 11 v ? ,ux X i wnat t.nat Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 ?00-336-oo+6 3!0-o84-25r0 WATER PCB-SD0000062894 A Mo, : don' _. 3 Do you know wnetr.er flux oil was ccf.tainec a styrene tars at Texas City? A I don't know whether it was or not. Q Did you know if styrene tars were a waste tariai from the stvrene orccess? A Yes. We certainly didn't go out to manufacture - - -- a r- ^ :ars ; we wen: is was _ert renir.a, sc I cr.ir.x you ccu_c ccr.sicsr it a oduct of the manufacture of stvrene. Q And there were large quantities of styrene tar cm the Texas City plant? A Yes, quite a lot. * 'Was the tar recaroec as a aroue.eserne aisccsa. 3 C 1 9IH , Z r . Re11v? Weil, well, Z con't know how vet would oual'fv as troublesome. We'a rather there .tad them ana we could live with it const s war: : es or-* Ace-Federal Reporters. Lvc. \ationwiae Coverage -J2-347-3700 d00-336-^*046 4iO-o64-23rO WATER_PCB-SD0000062895 MR. MC CONNELL: Let ~a snow you a acc^ien: , ei_y, wnicr. we will .tar:-: as Kelly Exhibit 13. (Kelly Exhibit 130 Identified. 3Y MR. MC CONNELL: Q Or. Kelly, this is an article written by Jack A es , si: QXes = g -etrccnsmica^ >`v a s t s coerces . A ' i e s, sir. Q And the article, if you'll look at the top age, was written in 1959? A Yes, sir. .ei_ , -ra rsdin * *a ;3S, 3. Ana Mr. , bi a " aerac m v/nicn an zrrani :uDsecuenr. :acs ' a ro ' i rav c: A ana 3 3 -- a :ruae .-a. * cc> ~ ~ a :=i r ' a r* Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. \ationwiae Coverage -02-34/ -_>> '.0 o00-33o-oo46 410-664-locO WATER_PCB-SD0000062896 product; A3. A Yes, sir, ` Z Is chat oenerallv the descrioticr. of what happens in the styrene process at Texas City? A He's calling it a hypothetical. In a broad sense, yes. You take -- we took ethylbenzene and react: it to force stvrene. Then we distilled it. Yes, that's Z Would veu read for us the next two sentences, Dr. Kelly. A 'There are several places in this process where troublesome disposal problems could arise. Distilled tars from the distillation step would most certainly constitute suer, a oroolem. The scent catalyst, in the form cc an organic catalyst complex, a spent-catalyst tar, or spent cry-bed material, would pose another dispcsa_ problem, ana extent of vnicr. would deoend on mar.v factors. 3eicre an adequate disposal process could be resigned, intelligent answers wou_d have to be found to cuesticr.s suer, as: In when removed orem one _5 CrCdUCSCI C9T SC9P. - C2 w9_VS w cr 1" 3 Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. _ J2-_'4/->/CO \ationwiae Coverage S00-336-oo46 4 lO-684-25c0 WATER PCB-SD0000062897 3 combustion products? Ian the catalyst be regenerated cr can some recoveraole product ce produced from'one spent "'Id - 5 r 1 3 1 ? " Q Let's go back to the first part of that paragraph, Dr. Geliy. .hr. Garrett said in this article that first of ail, "there are several places in the orccess where troublesome disposal problems could arise ' A Yes, s r r. Q And he said 'distilled tars from one distillation steo would most certainly constitute such a prcciem"? . A Yes, sir. Q .And distilled tars would be tars such as the Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. 202-347-3700 Nationwide Coverage 500-336-nn46 410-6*4-2550 WATER PCB-SD0000062898 Waste aisccsa_ tatters department? ttS .T.9G1 ta _ ` A In the medica_ department. Again, he was not responsible for the overseeing of the day-to-day disposal Q That was the plant people? A That was the slant ceoDle. n 3ut Mr. C-arrett was the man in the medical ieoartmer.t wnc wa: V* -i ^ ** D A Resconsioie for knowina what wen: :r.ere , yes sir . what is .et's talk arcut moncchlorobenzer.e, Ir. Kelly mo wit.t one - -- ~ rh cnemrra. W*a S -IS SC . sxas dp ' -- ,'dno"*^di :use zzn'z rsms-re: ,o veu reca., :r.at ana: wa G ~ -- O >--" S> r ' .=5 -* G. ms s avrer.: *.*s cssp. a wav icrsm ~rs a .n. u i a c t u n r. c :::= some -ime. What is meant cv ton maximum oermissio. o n t n Ace-Federal Reporters, L\c. \ationwtue Coveraee -JO-j-tr-mm SOO-3~6-m>4e 410-W4-255O WATER_PCB-SD0000062899 A Weil, :rcm tne _r.cj.st.ri21 nvgier.e comt o; view it's tr.a maximum ailswec for either an eioht-ncur vorxino rst a _iretime, ce tne utter _mit mat scald be -- the individual sould be exposed to for shorter periods of time, 20 minutes, half hour or an tour. Q Would it be correct to sav that over that maximum cermissibie concentration, the exposure would be .A Yes, I think so. If you -- again, you nave to - if vou're talking about breathing tne material for tvc minutes, that's one thing. If you're talking about breathincr it for eight hours, that's something else. But mat's what maximum allowable concentrations are suppcsed to oo. You're succcsec to observe mem ant not exoeec mem over a cerioc of time. 2 What can you tell me about tne toxicity of tonocniorocanoer.e , 1 r . Yell','? esr. a ,ra ^ e tox ~ o n ^ sr. e . 'o sav a moderate tox emioa., Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage -02-347*3700 ^00-336-oo4o 410-ot>4-2j:r0 WATER_PCB-SD0000062900 A Yes , I think if uVC b reache enough of it in h concent rations,. Whether it nac to be -- the "cemperatur had to be elevated to get a suf ficientiy high concent ration; I believe it has to be elevated cemDera tures. I don't know how 1n - ~3 `1 Q What does it mean to sav that a chemical is a narcotic, Dr. Kelly? ^ ~- ' ' cut vou -c - --"C * ~ vou cet sncuch zz ic. It affects the central nervous system as much as an anesthetic. Q If you get too much, it can kill you? A If you get too much? g If you get too much, it can kill you? A Dh,I think so, if you cat too much of it. I W"o u _ d vou cet neacacnes vic.n overexposure cc mcnocnicrobenzene ? A Dne could. g Dizziness? A V0 G t ^ q 4-,, vd :6S , se mines were known back m she Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. Nationwide Coveraee 202-347-3700 'iXI-3 36-oo46 410-604-2330 WATER PCB-SD0000062901 ' l 1950s ? - A Yes , 3 ir . - 2 Did y.cr.san*: exceed the maximum oermi s sidle i! *| concentr aticn for monochiorobenzene in some or its plants 5 A They may have at times. 5 MR. MC DONNELL: Let me show you a dc cument, i Dr. Kell y, wni on we will mark as Kelly Exhibit 30 . s Keiiv Exhibit 20 identified. 9 * ^LJ j :i ' 3 y y. ?.. MG DONNELL: D o y :u recognize this, Dr. Kelly, as a memo you wrote in '951? 12 A Vgc sir, I do. 1 2 Mi : 2' s rated February 5, 1351? 1 4 A ''13 S , sir. 1 2 ML -->u a suc'ect is monccniorocenzene? A v o c ; sir . - 2 -- a - 0 '. ' p CT -- -- 0nc* " 33,n "2 C e 3 C. Z 7. e name o: 1 2 the per- 3 n ^ " ' s addressed to -- cur you re ce_l mg scmec.n : 3 that yea ivCII- ::ve a :ustccer cr.e c r 1 Irv/ir.r ca -- 3. -* /> rcncerr.i no rn.cn ccr.icrccencene ? a ** c-'> /~v r< r-\ on o n o ac z r. 3 Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. Nationwide Coverage --' 2* 547-3700 sOO-336-oo+o 4lO-oA4-2^rO WATER_PCB-SD0000062902 3ZZ3CZ cc a narcc;::,' A Yes, air. 2 You go or. oo aay ore symptoms of c exposure are headaches, dizziness and stupor? A Yes, air. Q You go on oo aay one maximum permissible concentration has deer, set at "5 parts per million? A Yes. Z Ana -her. you go on to a ay ' I omnx o.o_s is extremely conservative. As in several of our operations I am sure the concentration exceeds that. Nevertheless, that is the law in many states, and presumady in Chio. ' Is that correct, !r. Kelly? A Yes, sir. . ~ 0 rr e n "i. */ Pi s I d : 9S . 1 Monsanto was exceed!: _ OuCsntrstion in 33vsral zz vcur A Weil, I icn'i re_ieve I vouli era exceeainc :: as an rmcim cract::; :nan was , ;::us airr.es . - - ra - -.-ca Ace-Fe 002-347-3700 eral Reporters, Ixc. Nationwide Coverage a00-33o-otv4o 410-oo4*. ;0 WATER_PCB-SD0000062903 n 5 0V9T2 zi your :cer2'ior.s? A Yes , Ana I i*=a sav :: was rcnsarvativs ecause we never r.ac ar.v 51:2c- :u: 'O >" s a 1 : rcm xcsedir.g such levels, If there were any, I didn't have nv cocunencacccn, rut - was ;air_v aonvia: ve a 1: xceea _t at tries, yes. Q That you aid exceed the maximum perm,as sidle ana: A We11, two atoms 1. 2u*^ ipn -* n 1 i .-e anc a .tio^bc\ :arccns amoc ' p. H.ITISS or emi c a X Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. \ationwiae Coverage -j/"0 ''00-336-oo4o 10-684-25r0 WATER_PCB-SD0000062904 rt co A Yes and no. It's been used as an anesthetic, here accmcr anesthetic, so it can't be tec toxic a_t.ee - i n z that' s an anesthetic , you could give a cerscr. 4 enough c f the anesthetic that they will not r eccver . So = :rcm nha t com t of view, you could say it's t 0X1 c , yes . 5 i _ 3 1 t used today as an anesthetic, 3r. Ke ' ' P T - A Mo . r < How long age was it usee as an anes that'c 7 ? A 3osn , 30 years age, 40 years age, 11 wa s usee J "131 " w r" very brief cericcs. If someccdy were sett --n g -- - --a ire , you' d want to give them an anesthet ic tha - mA O U. las t for one or two mir.u tes. You'd have them ir.ha. 3 -- 0 5 m "* f , ana ic Wcisn'n used widely. It was used me s t _ - --nq -- - ~0S 2, C n ^ " A 2 n y CZTC-.CriG0C, Simi2_ *v h e c 0r*0 "in rff9C-3 1 n n c n e--m rxeesur? \ Z -- a:, necer.cs :r. ;.:w nucr. exocsire. . sc ili :r.ese svTnccnms nr.in `.,*0 -ja^xec o.ere 01 ;ne, dizziness, surer, sun ling-nem expesi ivels inner nine rra xmm n^l^v/scie ccr.csmrd' Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. .2*j4/ -a 30 \atiomviue Cjveraee rOO*336-oo4o 410-684-2.?;?0 WATER_PCB-SD0000062905 _0 think there are any prtitr.gec effects. But the material is, as I sait, _s an anesthetic ana if you rive enougn sf it, you scuff cause a fatality. Q What foes the term 'maximum allowable concentration' mean, Tr. Kelly? A Just vnat it says. That's the amount of material in the air that is accented by the workers in tna "'elf as a level mat should net ce exceecsc. Q Toes it mean the same thing as maximum cermissible concentration mat we talked scout earlier? A Weil, just semantics, one says permissible, one says allowed. Maximum allowable cr maximum permissible. Meitner me is used anymore. It's cailec mresneid limit * - a " '^ac 'To c Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. Nationwide Coverage 202-34,-3700 300-336-oo4o 410-684-2330 WATER PCB-SD0000062906 And atone that :oncsntra'icn, one exposure wou.: :e unsaier A Presumaclv. It deoends on hew f eve ana how long the subject was exposed. Q Do vou remember what the maximum roncentraticn was 1353 for ethylene dir Mo, sir to not. wabie de ? MR. MC IDNNE1L: Dr. Kelly, let me show you ar. exmoit wmor. we w;.. cars as na^._Y ixnin ' Xe11y Exhibit 31 identified 5Y MR. MC CCNNELL: JO YOU l.ei.Y, as a memo ;s , ji.co; as, s .un a '.v r. o _ s .. r .more ;a~: --- VA ' Monsanto Do me an-.' .-me one suo'ect me memo Ace-Federal Reporters, I\c. \attonwiae Coverage 202-347-' 700 800-336-oo46 410-684-2330 WATER PCB-SD0000062907 Cry a ::ni mao c u see _ n one 30c araarac wn 000 000 acc ra av 3 as 3060 done 1 ; os than correco, sir? A Yes, sir. .Ana 00 say ' Ohe r.axi.T.ar, allowable Lcenoraoion is m one neichborhooc of 110 oaros oer a1 .3 o.nao one sane as one s=z o-- a^ ~nnca-s r ~ --1 ~ ~ on 7 o n o o.nao ormer A nav have beer., buo '53, uso non ' 0 xr.cw. .a'"',oria -- a me sown from 110 oaros 00 one ana 1 N . I w <v : rame _ oncer Ana crowsim ci : es , -na i av n t a n ^2 - "y 1 ane 001300-3 wi oc o.or0^ Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc, \anonwiae Coverage "30 iOO-336-oo46 4i0-b84-. :0 WATER PCB-SD0000062908 chlorines on it. Q Was char also usea in Texas City? A I dor.' c knew. : cor.' 1 remember. Q Is chat another chlorinated solvent? A I don't knew whether this is a liquid or a gas. At the present time, I gust don't knew whether it's a soiid. 1 Is it closely related to ethviene dichloride? A Weil, it's cot two chlorine atoms arm the otter has three. It's reallv m that fashion. I con1t know now ' 1 it relates as far as voiat ilitv or even the onvsicai structure, whether it ' 3 3. liquid-or a gas . 1 2 -s Is the toxi city of ethviene trichiororide Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. Nationwide Coverage -02-34/ -3- 30 '00-336-OO46 410-684-2j?0 WATER_PCB-SD0000062909 u-t-v-1-a-m-i-n-e; two words, tertiarv, butylam i. r. 0 ? A That' a raaftaaivs w :cr various ca Tcuid vou tell me some cf the reactions i - 3 sec ir.. A Ethylbenzene to styrene, and I don't k ow what. ther areas it mav be used in, but it's a pretty common tj a . * r * was used at the Texas litv slant A 'Yes, it wa s m the styrene process Vo Q It's also referred --^ _ w-rt. , Wou.t you say, ma: :a r- -- " a .amir.e is a :air:v severe toxic acer.t. Me, Z con't think I wcuic. sva va lS :ar as irntati mav me "ad tut me svstsnu: tcxicitv, Y 1 O - ccr^--o '.c9rr.9G ^0 r.9V9r mac. clem witr. .c: .*;ers ;si: this catalvst. MR. MC. TCNNI t me snew men* , Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. 232-347-3700 Nationwide Coverage t00-336-oo46 110-6S4-2tti WATER_PCB-SD0000062910 Dr. Kelly, wnic.o we wi__ mark as :.si*y ixr.:-:: -x. Kelly Exhibit. 3 2 identified. ' 3Y MR. 'AC EDNNELL: Q Do you recognize this, Dr. Kelly, as a memo you wrote in 1371? A Yes, 1 do. Mat's vcur signature :n tne memo : es .And the subject is tertiary butylamir.e? A Yes, sir. Q It's a memo vou wrote to hr.. Eox at tne Texas nan' ronversation tone imam intense s a v s me toxic; Vou accp- DC aan -- 0 ^ 3 X 3 0 P. w S 01/0 x:: 0 3 0VS y" xic =crer 0',/ ~ f. 3 :o:-34 Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. \ationwiae Coseraae mo '00-3?'6-ookj -U 0-684-. iO WATER PCB-SD0000062911 - A Yes, ear. - You wena an ao sav This is ^ ti ~ a saar.cccir. a ' zz :ra- make I 4 A Yes, sir. - >c Would you ^ e a c a n e a e x a sen w 9 P. C 9 i IT . Kelly. 6 A rr,l-> 5 - from ade saandpem *- --s -- -- -- a maake. It - is extr emeiv aoxio iron ade saandcom ~ z z i r. h a 1 aaion in siar.cipcir.t of one skit.. It is, however, ocrrcsive :n she skin arid ::rr:s:ve an ads eye. ' 2 So you knew in 197 1 adat a emery tuaylanune is exa.rerr.eiv a:x:: :r:n ere saar.docir.a :: irna.aaion? -* a v : es , 70 / -v 5. 5 e :irs~ :vc o NO -T.0 rr.a * a on . a 9S a n hewed 9i:9c e -ur.es , Ac Federal Reporters, I\c. Nationwide Cose rase i urorro ;00-336-oo4o 410-oo4-. ?o WATER PCB-SD0000062912 - liv er, and intestinal tract. The same type of catnoiccy - was notea following skin ape ideation. The :'.idr.eys m - n se acute experiments were not remarkable. -t Q So in January 1371 when you wrote this, you knew ana t tertiary butyiamir.e had effects on the * u n c s ? A Yes, sir. Q .Ana an a he liver? A Weil, 1 would have lack aver me report :: answer char. Q Does your letter say that me tertiary butyiamme in this study showed effects an the liver? A Yes, sir, it aces. Q .Anadid vcu also sav that itshcwea effects an U) Ace-Federal Reporters, I.vc. - ----o-t / * a /1 0 \anonwiae Coverage ^OO-336-ook) 410-o84-2^r0 WATER PCB-SD0000062913 Q And had you known that hack in the 1 3 50s, Dr. Kelly? A ' o0s Q Yes, sir. A I don't knew if I oil or not. ' Q Do you remember what you knew about tertiary dutyfamine in the 1350s as we sit here today? A Mo. I knew it was a corrosive oomccund. 1 ten't believe 1 knew the extent of the damage 10 oeuid cause to tissue, either in the lungs or the skin. Q You knew about its corrosive effect in the Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. 202-347-3700 Nationwide Coverage ''00-336-^o4o 410-684-2530 WATER PCB-SD0000062914 or just used it cut it was never reccmmencec as a tcoc additive. 3Y MR. MC :CNNELL: Q Do you remember achemical known as T3C? A Polyvinyl chloride, PVC? Q No, sir, T3C? A C, like a cat? 'em, a as as o A ?3 -- wnat was the .as a A T3C, no, sir, I don't knew what it means or what 9 :ne enema cat u: 2 Do you rememoer that there was a T3C used in tr.e vrsns c r c c 0 s s 0 z. T 0 x <3. s 2 Lz*/ ? No, sir, I don'z ramemcer zz. Do vou remember anvthinc about T3C being usee as t Texas No , iOU. vou _ixe :ae.n. taxe a s: "* ever an : r wou _ c :mua r It iecencs on what the maiontv wants. Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. \ationwtae Coverage :::-347-3700 SOO-336-*k>k> 410-n84-2330 WATER PCB-SD0000062915 1 I can ksec gone . I 'VISC wanted to caxe sure 4 you had a Cadr.CS 1C CT9d.< _i von wa n an ~ e . ` 4 I'm all right. 4 why don't we go ahead and if you 0 e ed a b reak, - vculd you clease "0'" oe. 5 A Sure . - What Is hydrogen or.Ioride gas, !r . Kelly? Weil, it's hvcro car. onion da oas . I c ' s h '/crogen 3 ZT 3.023000 gas . ^ * Was it present a t various Mo r.sa n t " a n - q -> 4 4 A Yes, sir. 4 4 c At Texas lit'/? - I'm sure it was. I don ' t knew wh ere 1z z it into "acsr e ma: macr.. Ace-Federal Reporters. Ixc. \atiorm lue Coverage .02-34/ -3/ w0 400-336-oo4o 4 !0-6d4-2or0 WATER_PCB-SD0000062916 Q What's "he relationship between hydrogen chloride gas ana hydrochloric acid? ` - A Weil, it's the same thing. One is in the 1 iquid * phase; o ne is in the gaseous phase. ; ' 3 It's basically the vapor from hycrcc.ticric acid? j 5 A Yes, sir. - Q And in the 1340s, Monsanto knew about hydro gen - '** * C IT -- i 0 gas poisoning? 3 A Poisoning? 10 j ^ 1 12 Q Yes, sir. A Well, 1 don't know if anybody was poisoned by ; *. 4- was an acid compound, and it had corrosive features , but it was not accepted as a widespread age n -- 1 4 *L n 2. -- '-v 6l 3 causing systemic illness, wnich is what a pc 1SC7. -- 1 3 . : 5 * You Knew it could damage the eyes? - A Oh, certainly. - - bL You Knew it could damage one lungs? - 7 V o c: :: < That was well known? : - A Yes, in sufficient quantities, yes. _ c And did you nave hydrogen chloride gas pois cnmo Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3730 S00-336-oo46 410-684-2330 WATER PCB-SD0000062917 cases at Monsanto's facilities? A No, sir. I mean, we may have had temporary irritation of the lungs or temporary irritaticn of the eyes from hydrogen chloride gas, but we didn't have any - again, if you say poisoning, I would interpret that as being a systemic poison, which affects the body elsewhere where you get -- in other words, if you get hydrogen chloride gas inhaled, you'll get an irritaticn of the trachea and the lungs. If you get the vapor m your eyes, you'll get irritation of the eyes. MR. MC CONNELL: Let me show you a document, Or. Kelly, which we will mark as Kelly Exhibit 33. ;Kelly Exhibit 33 identified. Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. Nationwide Coverage -02*34/ o/00 S00-336-oo4o 4l0-b84-2do0 WATER PCB-SD0000062918 Q Do you remember why you wrct e ar.< ' A He must have asked me how we ex csure o hydrogen chloride gas. eat rases of Q Would you read the first sentence? A 'Cur medical routine for the treatment cf hydrogen hloride gas poisoning has two forms. ' Q The next paragraph is about minor cases? .a yes Q And you explain in that paragraph how you treat the minor cases? A We give it an an anti-spasmodic, such as atropine sulfate, given by mouth one ounce cf Hatden's Viburnam compound which is another anti spasmodic that I rues s we used 30 '/ears aac . In audition we soravec it wxcr. zn0 "Ttirsi z' ' . Sornsti" tiss *.s' rav0 cxvcep. ap*c vs give morpnme. Z And do you remember, Dr. Dally, that you had 5 C1710 C3.S05 Z Z hT/G rCC9P Z G 1 Z X Z 0 Z 0 S C O X. 3 c r. x r. CT X r. d X *,v 0 G 0 treatec that wav? Yes, sir. Aorain we usee their term 'ooisonmg a cat: We had cases luners frem frem hvdrccen chloride. Thev a ana Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. \ationwiae Cov erage 202-347-3700 '00-336-oo4e 410-6S4-2330 WATER PCB-SD0000062919 40 - ; The term hyareg en chloride gas poisoning 1 is - the phrase you usee in thi s letter, isn't at? - A Yes, sir. 4 Q Would you read t he third paragraph, Dr. Kelly. ; ' A 'In the hospital the serious oases are given oxygen and ~a^'~cr a ^ q ^ 1 d s mixtures of the same proportion - ' by nasal c atheter as well as morphine and 50 percent 3 glucose an t"--a venous to dim i.oisii pulmonary edema . 5 2 So lions an to had serious oases of nydrogen 10 chloride g as poisoning at that time? 11 A We must have. I don't know how many. It really does not - - z don't recall it being a great problem with. - - some of cu r plants out we had plants where we. made I 4 cr.l crane , and, tr.ere would be an offshoot of hydrogen r c r' a -- i d 9 z as ores~o~ * ** -- n 0r3 w*Gr3 a ralaasa zz ct.cnr.3. And cr.cse cases were crested ir. the hosci-s.? ~ zcr. -- *"902' i zoo manv ~f them ccano zc zoo r.csc;;a., really. We rave cxvcer. a: the uiscer.saries cur -- zoo' z anismcsr ap.T/ dosoita ' zed cases . Buz me serious cases were sene cc the r.cspaoai If we r.ad tr.em, ves . let's talk abet t hvdrcc.oiori c acid, Or. Kei_v. Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. -02`j-t/"5/uO \ationvviae Coverage MX)-336-oo46 -tl0-^>4"2o30 WATER_PCB-SD0000062920 - -t - hat:' 3 :ne -icruih : 2ron :: r.varccen A V o s , sir. :cx::? beg your paracn? '3 :ox: A _3 10 wnat/ :ox:c We__ , mere a c a i r., :t' s eraser.' .cum a: ;macn so :: odvicus-v as not toxic rrom tr.at riew. It's an irritant, corrosive -iquic, ar.o isua.iv refer to somethina that's toxic as somethin; that's a compound that will cause damage to the human organism start from the local iamace. It will cause svstemic a^ace ano i~ vou cc .ctitr. :r. tne eves, sxm, _uncs , _ wou_: :ertainiv toxic as car as cutt: ur sxin cr :ur eve . -t wi__ camac q - " o --/=> wi__ camace tne sxir. Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. \ationwiae Coverage 202*34/-3/GO i00-336-oo4t> -rI0-b64-2o-0 WATER PCB-SD0000062921 t E. A What? :rrosive r Weil, it :cesr.' : dissolve it mea.n, it wi__ :ause similar to a chira-decree burn ;C VOU mat t.tere was a crcr_em witr. Monsanto workers who were exposed to nyaroc.mcric act: A Weil, we baa some in our Massachusetts plan': where it octr.erec t.ns er.ame. ' o " oot exception or mat ana me exception or acute episcces,' .a didn't really have mucr. trouble with it. Q What happenea to the workers who lost the enamel on their teeth because of hycrcchioric acid exposure? A Eventua1lv thev lost their teeth. ti wnd u. ccir." _a _irr.0 ma1 a S. 0 MR r MX1 .41. n e wi__ .T.a .'.ei.V EX MR . e i _ v ixr.ioi art Ace-Federal Reporters, L\c. _J2*j4f -^j ','0 \ationwiae Coveraee '00-336-oo-4o 410-64-2~ rO WATER PCB-SD0000062922 :43 :o vou reccanice this as a .sttsr vou wi at the American Ivanamid demean' A Yes, I a o. Q Id's dated April 10, 1961? A Yes, sir. 1 Id's about the effect of hyarccnicrtc acid : 139- h? A Yes . 1 Ana it describes the workers who -tst their 10 :eeth because cf hydrochloric acid exposure? A Yes, sir. 3 do you see in the middle -njLs ent^eiT/ :r. Kelly, the sentence that starts :ne cecoie wnc r.ac < c r e c _ r. ir.Ls z. e c e it o. m e r. u ' ? ;ou!d vou reac oh *-v .n r- rd crom* Uaruinc vnere :e cecc.e, * id dei vnc r.ac ter aimost .o 1 T w vs ,-----"'on wa Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. _ J2-_'4/ - .v 00 Nationwide Cuverace n)0-336-oo4o 410-o84-25^0 WATER PCB-SD0000062923 ^44 with it, I will never ,<ncw , but we never had a suit. They just accepted it as a fact c life. The enamel more cr less dissolved. I feel this is rather well documented someplace in the ancient occuDaticnal medicine literature individuals did not complain about upper respiratory cr eye irritation. ' 2 So Monsanto cot away with that, Sr. Kelly? A Weil, I don't knew if I'd use the term 'ret away with it.' This naccenea oetcre * came tiers :ame m the '30s, and I think the compensation laws were such that injuries to the teeth were not ccmpensibie unless they were in an accident and knocked a tooth out. You say, -\ei. i / now we cot a wav wit: . will never knew' didn't voi A :es What old vou mean, Sr A Weil, what I mean bv that > a r ~ ^ r* ra t.ois is oast history that .tad occurred oercre I naa arm with them, ana I didn't know t.ois was an :ess that we weren't usi.no anvmc Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. :o:-347-:"o WiHonwiae Coveraee 800-336-oo4o 410-O84-2530 WATER PCB-SD0000062924 any car"::u. = r reason ::r Mot some'em van' rr ar.v ".^aa knew nr mat's t.ne teaser.. z* r~ ca c ' aqap' m wa; : exactr.v mew wnetr.er a murna_ wou.r taxe a pace; r* -aaT-aa _-"a '3 3 0s y ' ~j s we had workers have t: '.e _ :: ac ;v exec c 'rrr.es . That ray '."errv wa_l rave keen M _ _ _ _ a: i 1. v rme- recc-9 r e c a u s e any. Mannheim furnace would have me same ex: ;e r.ac What is 7CM, Ir. Kelly? * co -..>'nw Lr. w * >c: - ..or.san:: rr.aca vmv_ :n-.:r::e 5XH3 tin -* ^ c. -- = Truer i zirx ; _ 0 27 1 n S ' 31 3 1^0o ^ ? .cncmer Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. \anonwtae Cjveraee 2-347-WO 300-336-oo-kj 4'.0-oo4-23?0 WATER PCB-SD0000062925 ar 1 ^ ' -- a ` 3 3C .za :c.cmer, nsade "his rie hettie. When I sav 'tie uett_e 5 rn (3 r o >- :ceraticr.5 , some :s -- .not: an /.onsant wou.a nave rhear worxers : na o out mev' re finished warn one xettues wim a oaten W'e tad net use mat system, a.nc ve never r.aa -- --> * rj i rases vere :r::ar.v _ass :na: ir. me vno. a^ o " nda *- -> r; q a * 3 1i c 3r* :on 33 'a r' r -- d >* 3 - * **^ 3 *an 3- me Lz caused :r mar :ar:::u:ar :oerar;:r. mere a nan wou-a scene aavs :cn:ir.ee xetdi: s r"\ ' :u sav zees :: reuse cancer, :: dr* d c * a ii S * :ncse :mer /men en 3 We : 3 3 *'* 3 r> *3r-3 "aira ~ 3 o n - ' 3 '*'3m;anr** 3 a roccn: r rases reccrcec 3= _~ rr.e ,<etc.e Ace-Federal Reporters L\c. Nationwide Coveraee :o: tO ?00-3?6-oo*k> r 10*684*2-^0 WATER PCB-SD0000062926 - cleaners , a no t any\/g>*ar 1 0 ore ditsr thsv went to any type of 3oi vent ratr.er t nan .anuax cniseiinc zz the - 3 tut f ttt the i ns ids of the 1 ci 11 >.3 4 Q Even before that t me, Dr. Kettle, you knew that 5 vinyl oni ends .Tioncmer was a tex c material, didn't you? 5 A Weil, according to you definition, every itstnai cnemica. ixi: ccmDCunc. . near, it -ust . 1C ids rr.cncmer toes not nave any carticu_ar_' -e : oxicitv. ce a r.arootio :u_t oe an asDr.vxiats not suDtcsed to he breathed at eievatea ocncentrations . Whai ^n ascnvxiate, -r. :.ei. ,ac;< ixvtsr.. :tr.ar worts, sons' xvc3 0 3 v ~ 'j, S 3 a r ^ 2 r ;3 .-jig vcu xr.ew a:cu: "r.e -9C . :av :ai. Ace-Federal Reforters, Ixc. Nationwide Coveraee 'M)0o36*oo46 410-6^4- WATER_PCB-SD0000062927 r.oncmer m :r.a . ; : ,, 3 : I'm not sertain accut the oats. There was a tain arte on t of laboratory work tone on it. out 1 ton t w when that date was. 2 What's yourtest estimate, Dr. >'e_ly? A What? 2 what is A Do vou mean the irritati.no and tne oossiole Q And the aspnyxiation. A Oh, ess it would be sometime m me '50s, ' o r" a * amom a t ~ " n oyd ~ ~ "a; sun i- v/ou-.a nave ceen m nr.e .vei., ro "as- \ns >;cr:n n 3 IT , " " 9V nas heman c::sar::nas cac-.*/ _9ss i_n nne ^n -- * -* o i^ciusti***v an * a r- a C. r* bh Ace-Federal Reporters, Lvc. \ ationwiae Cua erase :J2-347*A 70 >00-336-oo4o -? 10*o-?4*loa0 WATER_PCB-SD0000062928 irccrt ana n ?hat was one tern that vet usea r.ose A Hemangic, h-e-m-a-n--g-i-o, sarcoma, ;-a-r:-c-o-m-a . Q .Ana vnat are hemangicsarccnas, Zr. Ze' A 3icoa vessel tumors. rvas tr.ere some trr- - n r. -* o -------------------------- a r title, Zr. Kelly, before 1371 that vinyl t.nitnde moncme' caused liver toxicity in addition to the other things we've talked aocut? mere was 0vsn a z z e it :ccurranca :zess zumers , mere war a r: _ivar in me ir.aiviz.ua_3 vzc zi: 0vai' : me r s MR . c -v o ____ _ :z zaxe rive. '-,e ' ve 3Y MR. Ace-Federal Reporters, L\c. :o2-34r-:cr;o Nationwide Uoveraee ^00-j36-oo4<> 41U-bij4-2530 WATER_PCB-SD0000062929 Dr. y.elLv, do vou rememoer :r. one niu-13~3s **\ seme potential-'/ serious vorxsr extosure oroc-ems O 3 one of one Monsanto clan ts ? A Will vou rsceat a litt ie louder, oiease. i Sure. Do you rememoer back m one mid-13"3s ng some potentially serious worksr execsu r e croc.ierr. s me of the Monsanto plants? A Do vr.ao? Dh.e ouestion is do vou rememoer chat vou. feurc CO' entiailv serious worker exposure :rc:1ems ? Weil, we had some, out I don't ohir.x ft was the ption of ::e 1 3 70s. W'e had some ongoing serious one ?.ssui.cec. iron -he rxcosur^ ~3 vrpiS" rr*em--C2-. ? ?ara-amir.ccipneny 1, Ach-Fhder.al Reporters, Ixc. Vanonwiae Coveraee -02*34/ -3/00 s00-336-ot>46 -110-od4-2or0 WATER_PCB-SD0000062930 27 - a. - a --m -1 - p. -o - c -1 - c - n -e- r. - v- 1 , cars - amir.c c acr.env 1 :u fauna :u; about that in the 135Cs? late '40s :r baain.nina 'EOs. How manv workers had blander cancer as a result :eir exccsur; :nemica_ , ^r*. A :av 30 tc 100 :me cf the cases were fatal? How .tar/// 13 to 20. Some cf the workers had to have their bladder: amoved ? Tha er ca are i. MR. 1'C OCNNELL: Or. Hell'// let me snow vou a cent mat ve w:___ mart as Re__v axmcc .\e__v Ox vp vr 9P.tlIl.3C . ^ *- :n ^ ^ ' -70 smo vcu ;ecrcs es o . Ace-Federal Reporters. Ixc. Nationwide Coverage -02-34/-3/00 '''00-336-ook> 110-684-2550 WATER PCB-SD0000062931 Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. -J2-347-37C0 \ ationwiae Coverage '00-336-oo4e 410-6(44-2530 WATER_PCB-SD0000062932 .ter.tioiea two :ctsr.":a*.y serious :cr.a:t;;ns :r.vc*v:r.g 'vcrr.sr exposure A Yes, sir. .At.g si course, we don't r.avs the :iaader crcbiem down there because we baa discontinued one 1 sometm; _ ^ You didn't stop manufacturing the cir r* ^ a >* :ar::r.ccen immediately when vou found out seme :ne A Not the :: two years, I ceeil.ls'/e, wne.n -- :irst or a__, we o.aa to ce - * sure that we were rill getting exposure :o she material : 2 ann it took a lit 2 while to do that because we had to -1 lop a method : arr analysis, we had ^t*a i ^- : i -- o *2 R to for metaoc res or the ~A3 ~ - - A'SIT 3 still rerun - = At firs we m cue nr - _ 9 S 3 sophisticate' :rcc_ems w= rue 3 :o3ss,, and so when we found rhat no matter now we tignter.ee :p the operation, we didn't nave any materia. _r. the air, ve still had areas wnere we had to tig out the ' a *" ^ r* * .1 from various kettles, and we hac ottos that hac "3CSCK0C , dc v0 r.a'd ii3Yslccsci "r*i.3 rr.-- -- Ac .02-347-"00 Federal Reporters Nationwide Coverage ''00-336-no46 Ixc. 410-6*4- !0 WATER_PCB-SD0000062933 4 ana-veins- r.etr. snow mat c a o c _ e wer- jcscrct: t everv we ve :.ear' jars vsre _e is rarrrr'*.' cu* :ass somewhat similar to curs. Weil, wnen I went over Sermanv ana tour.a out mat we rea..v wer- r.av: oases, I to-d the manu:acturir.c people ir. .is, wei. we've got to get out. 3 o '-we lit, out ocouoatrona 1 tar.cer ana -one 10 lac time, end so teccle who wera exccsec m the '30s sail' could develco a-fumer in the '30s Monsanto continued to make ?AB tor two vears ter veu tounc accu: uatte: .em? -<ei_, ves , out tnev contmu :ene: was tnev wera :m tneir e x o o s u r a .r. t.ne ear.i e we ran cancers trom worxars wnc r.ac -use :ur emo -- ovmer.t in tnat tart' out.aT- t^tar-tsn :ame wa s r. out we cot out an wav tec a use v, 3 .'"21/ Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. :j:-347-:cco Nationwide Coverage SCO-33o-ook> ^10-b84-2330 WATER_PCB-SD0000062934 didr.' t '3i cu~, cress ceocls would have. There night os fewer ceccie, cut we knew we 3hcuf.tr' r he exposing peop? cc a carcinogen. Q Ana you drew tr.at in the 13 5Cs? A Yes, sir. Q Let's go rack to Exhibit 25, dr. Kelly. Ther? are two caragraphs talking about the problems you had - -""c . 9 -rst cr.e savs The dMAC , YEP., .TICL and Adi exposures m cur textile ciants, esceciallv decatur ana 10 What is dttAC, dr. Kelly dimethyl acetamide. . What is chat, dr. Kelly? That' s a solvent :r acri-a; :r_cnnatea so_v= imet.cv- a 0 What was me exposure problem wit r. I MAC . .%e_. i>ve. icrv. ' t - -'gro ' ~ VO d" 1 ' ' t ' CH -- O 3 :atr. There s a iso s.c :ecause cr.e eats icves, ana vou can' v we:, r.ar.c.a erase __ct_e t.ni.n liter ~ ^ a Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. \ationwide Coverage 102-347-37C0 300-336-eo46 410-664-2550 WATER_PCB-SD0000062935 ' or a*" -r :r somemmr e_; 301r.sn.Ties rave c: vcur nar.-rs in mere Whar vas me mxirirv crcolem ::r me wim mar exccsura? :ea vour carom.-' Whar was me mxirirv crcbiem w- A -iver crcoiems. Wna: >ve _ _ Lz. i. r.c-- 32. s 0C. . vsr 0n z'rTT.0 5 , 3.r. z a*>9 a 2d 11 :a:a.:ries . W'e r.ac rsrv :aw noscica^iaarims orcm ir, we rid have eievarad liver -- a more sochisrirared live: fmrrim rasr rhar had beer, available before me 1371s. Was 111AC used ar ^sxas ho . sr ' 3 - 3 .3 mar 'AR.- Have _ misrsao ir. And whar is 'har 1a ^ o Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. :::-347-37co Nationwide Coverage 300-336-oo-kj 410-oo4-2330 WATER_PCB-SD0000062936 it has rn i 13 3 .same s tea m. g Causes cancer? A Net that I ;<ncw cf. 2 3ut the ctr.ar toxicity is the same? A Pretty much so. .a a A0 A Mo, sir. C What is TNCL, .'.eilV ; A recantv vir.vi c: :cn 1 t -mew why I've :t tr.at M _r. tiers, vi .-at: VIXV -v3 O" Wha w e' 9 C 3 C C U 3 3X0 3 3 X - ------- - es , .-uiG vna1 Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. '.anonwiae Coverage _ JS-o-t,-o, uO ?00-T'3o-oo46 -t 10-^84- WATER_PCB-SD0000062937 58 Acryismtrile . That was ,7,ace _r. Texas Tity? :9S , 1 " V<3. 3 . Anc we've talked accut "he ::x::::v sf .-v : es ,et's look a: the second caraaracr., .\eiuv av Z a -- 3 :r sncscr.crus raanusasaurunc _ :a,<e vour nemo oners was a cc a n t- ' a / us exccsure orcouem witn tnose materi; A Weil, ves, sir. We had electros furnaces and in :eratisns, vcu nave an awtu_ _ot q-- ^ r- - -- o sasecus were anv ' a Q O -- ;a -- O r- ' use^ at .exas t think so, hut there were ns srco-ems 5v were usee, ;ma__ arr.cunt. uo. ;:n stasks . huisar.c uhisuitsus . 7_ucnne we rexas Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. Nationwiae Coverage -02-34/-3/00 300-336-oo46 4 i0-o84-2j-0 WATER PCB-SD0000062938 259 I'm sorrv, ycu did :: did not? did not. Silica, I don't think we used it. 1 so tr.cse were prcciems at o' hGr c 1 gr.~ 3 itss ? A Yes, sir. 2 What is SO,, or.Kelly? U A Sulfur dioxide. Q .And couid you tell me about Me exposure :rcrlems vcu vers navi.no with SC ,7 .vei-, - wou.a sav "e sw2cxs -- -- -~e ar^esc 10 '/hat the exec so: mien. :n' t knew -./here the SO. entered into the manor accuri.nc process, per se. Q And by stacks, -you mean from smokestacks? A Yes . 7 Emissions from the riant? What was me rrrc.err, mat vcu racea wit.n mess emissions, 'what is wna- vnat was tr.e emissions .- It's an irritati.no oomocur.o to tr.e _unos ana /as : u t mere, mis i. ; he s on crus manor acton.' Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. Vaaonwiae Cuveraee ---*347-3700 S00-336-oo4o 410-684-2350 WATER_PCB-SD0000062939 .3 J uni-, and so share was a lot aiscoras sumacs, whi.r. os a fast or. ciareter anc accut 13 fast l.n height. Anc you run an awful lot of electric current on there and you reit ail this phosphorus mat ycu nave picked up or cue out of the Columbia neighborhood. And there is sulfur in the ore also and under the reduction orocess, you get SC,. ^ Ar.a p 2. e veil" z C0 ~0 :crs0cusnce zz p'-irnsr. exposure :: er.cse epissicns, 2r. Kelly? A 11 e s c. lzzzzz.3lzz.zz. Q Irritation to the lungs? A Yes, sir. ?5U30 . Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. \anonwtde Coveraee --'"34, -3/'"10 500-336-oo46 410-684-2530 WATER_PCB-SD0000062940 A ton' t knew. rormu_a~a.cn I can't rememcer me cnemrcai ^ -a' Did Monsanto make vinviidene chloritet :o me rest mv or'' * )o you recall some concern at Monsanto :r.e lv 1370s about the cancer asoec ::oe .NO, - - s nemo r sneum., :er resnea . MR. MC 0CNNELL. .ec me snow veu :cument, Eeilv, that we'll mark as Kelly Exhibi o . .\e__v oxniri- 3Y VR, vr ''CNN ELL to veu '"soccnirs rom Mr. .vne a . : es , -o Do vou recoonioe received rrom Mr. vnee.er m -- *ei_, . ora i :v we r.: :hn Dhamberl , wnc was r.anuiac-un: 3 U C 8 r 1 "^pClSP"' ;ur :sx::.0 zecar-men~. Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. ^anonwiae Coverage :02-347-3700 D00-33o-ot>46 t 10-684-25r0 WATER PCB-SD0000062941 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 202-347-.'/ Nationwide Coverage 300-336-oo4o 4i0-tjd4-2550 WATER PCB-SD0000062942 Mr. wheeler vas reccnrnendir.u zzaz Monsarr: cav cari 2Z ~re zzs* `A -- c ; U. o ^ ' -- <V o u. :u r.ave aone mat, ~~ VOU w0 r a n *1 r: a x r. c le :r..:r::er ,r,ar*x sc, cecsuss ion' : .mow wna: intense, '.netr.er mev wen' a_cnc wi:: mis :r not. Tha- .as voar =' lcs c crrcanv, anc xncw vns: :u: we wcu.: cecause ir vou ie next rccm, vou war.: :o rinc .f mere's ar.v truer, to me runicr that that causes cancer. We'd he haDoy to fine mat it r.ct cecause rt wcum remect m 3 nn c r. vo ou read AS .nacme _ m_crioe cases m r.umar.s arter me o -- an/-- o s ' ' * a n -5 . o s cair.a ir. tine, vou aireaev knew that are vou er ir. rumans/ Ace-Federal Reporters Ixc. - 34` .00 Nationwide Coverage ;00-336-oo4o 410-684-2350 WATER PCB-SD0000062943 A Th, yes, I think 1 said sar.isr tr.at < a\r disooverec t h s s s tases at Soocntr. and tne* .sar.it: ceocle .tad osv-lcoea aemarcicsarcomas . Thai .And :r t: mat time, mere r.ac teen studies sncwinc t.nai . m.iariae oculd cause cancer m animal: anew about mat. I mean, it doesn't is t: 'rvhsre iuo vers cr vnere thev were sr.cm , . Q Mr. Wheeler's memo seems to suggest that there were vinyl chloride cases in humans discovered after the demonstration of the cancer ootential in animals? A That's wnat r.e savs . ' To vou rememoer vner. those animal studies were -o,. sir, ana . a: rememoer wnc tic them. To you : rememoer to: we s nowet of ther What ? To vou i nr.x vou' d remember t.ncse _r we snewee Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. \anonwiae Coverage 202-347-3700 300-336-ot>46 410-664-2330 WATER_PCB-SD0000062944 ear., sure I would. dar wou' d '/ou^ rr. emc'-v"' es . aair., vou rave i` ._ro _n vou: :xio . , ou oaxe it as cicr.craniercu: .i vou aaxe _o as :a.:re. :ocv oowt; Soutr. usea oo oaxe ever; Now, elemental osrcur; ____ S XS -- - s very, very widespread, it's ir. coa_. the rurna.r lives with It but acair, it's row xe. ar.v ,'w 4 w * * . urs. Manv are a: :xic was xrcvr ir. the 1340s arc jcu.rus were xr.ow wnearer tre xncwr. was some ooxio :c r.erou: orsar.tc ooox irsvent worxer extcsur: Ace-Federal Reporters, L\c. Nationwide Coveraee -32-34/ *3700 8G0-336-oo46 410-684-2550 WATER_PCB-SD0000062945 'u '^0msmcsir -.rsits vds e* mBirrurv circc.^Bm, 3 Muscle Shoals Wei _ , ,<now, ^orngrr^g^r Ct . knew we used mercury mere m me mar.uraccurmlcrme. I acr.; : recall any cases cf all re; : ses . ive ma- nave had some, cue I cor.' 0 recall MR _et me snow '' on - )r. "ei_v, mat we wi__ mark as Ker_y Exr.itf Re _v rxnmic c . rcer.trtrec . 3Y MR. MC CONNELL: 2 Do you recognize this, Dr. Kelly, as a memo the received from Mr. Pfeifer at the Muscle Shoals riant ' 05 It's catec May 12, 1952? V^c r ; *- veuir r.emc zz Mav e Shoals : es He coes on ay aik abou err. v Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. \anonwiae Coverage 202-347-3700 300-336-oMti 410-664-2350 WATER_PCB-SD0000062946 ccncsn c O r- aDO O c ^: 0 r0GS ear res \ c? dcu: trie vo e exposure e rer:u'"v t our.as A Weil, axis _3 e_emer.aai rercury 1 t S 0 - 1 N -U And La was xn own aa ahaa aime la VcL S a.rporaana void exposure a: el erenaal rercury? .n Yes, sir. Whaa are sore a a ar.e svnpaans of r.erc urv -- -7 , lr. Kelly 7 "well, ahers's acuae and chronic . c *r -= ~=u'w :e r.euro.:a::2. urrancss, ana _ wou.: sav :r.cse are :r.e :wc raun, :rauscu. 'r.aa excosure ar.c svsaer.ac .-xar.s' -.-err. err xccsuri Anc C*' ' iccsures , vou rear, lorc-aire Ac . :j2-347-37C0 Federa Reporters, Ixc. \anonwiae Loverace S0G-336-oo4o 4 i 0-664-2550 WATER_PCB-SD0000062947 '.veil, -Mere's iisturoancas in cart. There' ;35 _^ senscrv -svs.s , - -njir'.k ~r.sirs :me moments -- -- 0 a .1. m i_ r a s r. ec. T!"isr0 ' s r.sr'/cusr'.sss c.r.ci ^na* ^ V01.7, wn0r, '.'Ou sav are* :omoonen:s are eimirasnec / ve - * , me: A ^ 3 H 0 T" C ; . 1 think there may he errors in judgment, that one psychological problems that may he associate: Again, we're still talking about how much you mucn e-- xvor = " - .is,* , . A .Ana wnat to meat. wner. ;av ;ou snaxe. .nat aocut tne -.'ou rererrm: t n i r. x _ a c x =a - 33 y- o r. -30 - 3s. You mav have areas of anesthesia m vour :uess that's tne sensc-v ones tna- ju lose the sense cf touch? Is t.nat wnat you Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. 222-347-3700 Vitionu-iae Coveraee S00-33o-oo46 -110-O&4-2350 WATER_PCB-SD0000062948 mean cv inssth9s max wa s:er ,oes 1' 'vs an * Dec vou: c . ,,.. -1 vour avs an at a 0c Do vou rememoer there vas a-- a e an] a -- ca - : es Sinai- amounts c: mercurv were reieasec as a I den n t:ncw vnetner :ns ma*. Anaz iDnsnec n: t. wen. v ramerriDe: t.hs -- s naxt no wt., *.v* n 3UCC.V. ~n o Z a c a a C S V,' S 5XOOS9C To very -area amounts , ves , What was the result? co 2. v c v 0 r auer Ac Federal Reporters, L\c. Nationwide coverage 1 SOO-336-oo46 10-6S4-2530 WATER_PCB-SD0000062949  v-o c ar :arna_lar viar. a.oe resu_a~ 3 -- ar'. a.rere ware an.v zaaa_aa; ram a mereur'.' and a.oe amouna anev i.ocesaea _r. a.oe `.a s ana a.oev era: rood- s i zee > c ~ - - -- ->o Tior' comocurtc SU*:f ar9C SSIT-ICU! ' o a c o c d> c i'o zr.e zssz zz mv rscci-.0C"icr., vss , vas i :a_ eoicsmic ever mere Who owned ahe Japanese aiana, Dr. Kelly? ror. a .anew. wasn ' a Monsar.aa . And :u reca__ wnen a.oa- iccarrec , rV k d . i e r. 3. v e c e e n ir. ere ::ncw. arnorp np r1 KINELl: a -- or- ;v vs r-xm: )NNEL1 .r. .-.a__v, ao '.ou raccar.ize iaT/' sorv ecmmraaee rr,estm! lS manures a. Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. \acionwiae Coveraee -32-j4/ -5,00 S00-336-oo4o 410-684-2530 WATER_PCB-SD0000062950 ' a v ''' - a r* ^ or Yes, si: :r.e scmmiv : es , ;er 5, I960? vou ' re li_s"sd ss a i rma n a f 2 Ler me ask you :o rum, -r. Kelly, :: page 4. The pages are numbered a: rhe rep. Down on me barren rmro of me oaoe -- I'm aorrv, Ir, Kellv, no vou have m me e race mere = a ar rea ws n exam1 dedres ar. ma. ~ s it cm 2rv v/sire ^release1 vas w hei-fisc 0 \T 0 . ''"'"ion rvs*zen 0 m c c loci, ca a ova a w i c r. ;a o 3 ACE-bEDERAL REPORTERS, IXC. 202-347-3700 \anonwiae Coverage 500-336-ook> 410-6^34-2550 WATER_PCB-SD0000062951 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 202-347-3700 Nationwide Coveraee ^GO-336-6040 410-6S4-2550 WATER_PCB-SD0000062952 C "I even 3 ~S__s.T.CUr.t ' n e w r. o w r rr.v eucre was an me s:ra__ amce ner:urv reieasea nv wasre. ncucnr _r was ' ^ "ic r r was reieasea ever a re_; : rims ' OO ` ^ Knew me exacr rcse mar _ r o; mar was a rnenemenen vou .mew arm :uesrienac_e wnemer mar same me mouanr ir was somewnar *ater. Bur vou were ralkina in rhese rr.ir.ures abcu: isr.. werer.1 r veu , 'es , .-mx .mew mar i: sir.a,, amour.rs :: merer :e wasre, _arrer ancur.r; And mar wouid ee rrre r.er msr in .arar. > r maces, wo u _; :er.'r mew ir vou earr' -* o n a a Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. :-:u7-:mo \ationvviae Coveraee iOO-Sjo-oo+o ti0-fea4-23r0 WATER_PCB-SD0000062953 :r vatsr _r. :ne ecus vs- :r.sr , . -us: :or.'u .-m: ise: 'o --O1 me vur.vj :r.a: was ' Q -- 1 .3 ' usee _r. udear. was mat ruur.u. Thau's :: ur.e :as: :: nv Know.euus, ves .Tna Mor.sar.uc used usreur ;0ss u r. Texas :r.a- . .*__ . :aac:::n: Wneur.er ur.e r,er:urv vou.: be .iterated iron :ur sper.u catalysts, wneur.er iu was ur.; sane uauaivsu as uhe Jaoanese ur differer.u une, I 'us: xnew . ivhau bid Mor.sar.u: wiur. une r.er:urv wastes What .'.or. s an uu wiur ur.e r.ercurv waste; uurr.es ur.ev out vancu: nueuu.T. :u:::u ur.au wciu_a recover ur.e caua.vs' rea ur.e rercurv. Dcneuurr.es ur.ev _ar.c; .-mow uu ur.ev uu; ?su ir* sczur. .*e- - s - "O1 Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. :o:-347-?7r.o Nationwide coverage S00-33o-oo4o 410-664-2530 WATER_PCB-SD0000062954 Soroeom.es _o was a'jmaea i: : , v- ~ ;a T d ** * ~ oner irr.es m vas releasee m me sewers ana wen mm me zav eca_l ahaa. emeir.ner one wav /ve__, I never r.earc aoc w, we 0 o w r. s r / ear., it rrav race cf 'Ex :arxincr acouT . These are The MCA ve' vs beer. 1K ca >- a ssicr. here about. ar.dusTrial ' nrr e r. t a -- r s a * t r. * e r e ' s a r. a 0 o eerier , wn w -- > *" -- 2=10 3-- C- ancus '"erna are a e v" r a t a rr. Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. Nationwiae Coveraee 202-347-3700 300-336-oo46 410-684-2330 WATER_PCB-SD0000062955 :eco_e or. or.e rerun: : es , _r. nr.an. ::s::ss .ne :::s: ::r,s vour name snow; , Ir. :'.9i_v wners m savs r.sre, 'r. y.9i_v, we rave :: neciae wnan we near. =rmer.` ani"',a c --.p> --,'"crasrns . :ourane redlecnior. of whan you said an ohe reenrr.u? A Weil, I dor.' n remember. When nhev have uovr.sizec r.v remarxs ir. a neemna no nwo ser.oenoes t r* - c wna: I was savin- a: zza: o ~ ^ -a , A n o >-a sac as :ecn*e rw we Knew :wn a 'C ew anc ev scrv we we are e v 9 - s , we W anc Ac 700 Federal Reporters \ationwiae Coverage S00-336-oo4o Ixc. * 10-664- 'C WATER_PCB-SD0000062956 'A Who was nora e V/a s x*c0r.a'*:i he Man a /** hem as ar.s axs ssc: Q He worked for MCA? A MCA. Q Was that me cf me approaches char you cook ac ohao rime, Dr. Kelly, :o claim char chines are r.cc so cac. brine a sense of realism mro ccilurion abaremer.r activities. Q Let's look at the next pace, Dr. Hel verv too. There's another entry for vou. It -OOK o c: There m.av ;e ^ race y ss1 r.c nere a r II vou at me cates mo ^rs OVIOU- we cot so I don't know vou reac o ta iVOU _ 0 ~ - - ne oaoe. a icustrv s commcuines Ace-Federal Reporters Ixc. nationwide Coverage SCO c00-336-oo46 4 'iOAd&4-2ttO WATER_PCB-SD0000062957 ;^ ^ ' -3 3 - 3. - emen t 3 1 , vnu mew mat mere is count tr.ir.x mar's accurate. was accurate -s a s _ t sommccities, vou reauce me coi.uticn c> rw ana I wasn't men an extern an reaucm: eveis ana anew now mrowma more rr.onev m mn trebiem was going to reduce the size of the problem. S o - icr.'t know what nv basis was for that statement in 1950 sunt mat vou naae mat statement mat. mat vou maae m.at statemer .-.aair., _ tor. t .mow now it was ' r. r.ds o 3. 3 a c n o 0 s 00 v r. 0 3 _ wa s 3 3l v 1. n c vav rr.v h:a-emer.* acceared 33 him, vheuhsr 3nat' -.. ^ -vd\ relieved, vne-r.sr reilec3s rr.v er 3. r. r..1 r. cr 33 rr.v 3 3.a 3.0m0r.3 3 ion' 3 know . Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. nationwide L-overaee 43-3700 S00-336-t>o46 410-664-2550 WATER_PCB-SD0000062958 Ksi1v f vcu recall that Mcr.sar.tc sometir.s i _____ o c:ar.: A I don't: know what you mean bv a calculated :is.< . ,ve certaimv nev? sox a caicu^atec cisk tnat nao anvthir.c tc uo with the safety cr the dea_th. :: people wno could ce exoosed tc cur waste. I tr.ir.k we never took a eae1-3 recu.aticns t.nat we xr.sw aocut. MR. MC CCNNELL: Let me snow you a cccumen' which we will mark, Lr. Kelly, as Kelly Exhibit 39. 'Kelly Exhibit 33 identified. BY MR. MC CCNNELL: you nes.er ; es , 3 o.-- */ a / - - -- : 9 S , S. -\r . -vnee. ^ 9 c a it t m 9 n t a c M o n s a r* Wou^ci vou 9 3 0C Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. Nanonwiae Coveraze 202-34/ -37(10 S00-3?6-oo4o 410-684-2^50 WATER_PCB-SD0000062959 memo, Dr. kei_v, anc 'It is tr.e :irst sentence ::r me :r.at Q No, I'm sorry, paragraph 2, Dr, Kelly. A 'A policy which 'would assure chat in the location of future comcarv slants the ouestior. o :ossirie 'fume, dust and smoke claims ce given consideration' has >aan ~ uo v ' *- O -- -PST- - ' ' ' O ''QO *"C ;o you r.ac a pc-icy aocut tnat in anc tns wen- : hack to 1152? A Yes, sir. The next sentence savs "To our knowledge the c 3 od10m s 3 s ' 3 3 s ci ~c c o .11.uticn r.dv9 csen 1s1.ci01r3.n1.3n . nr.0 v 0 3 3 s _ Tjnec 13 n. 0 o. .cse issues/ <vOU*3 nhan# Mcnsannc sonsiderec > a ~ a x: :or-or ~ to ae f.av 3 30H e o t-i f- - a ayns 39-3303 en consiaeranicn. Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. Nationwide Coverage 102*34/-WOO 500-j36-6o4d 4I0-6S4-2t50 WATER_PCB-SD0000062960 ha_'s 3.3 e ar.e S3 reac . Wo -ext. cne . 0s have tri.s0n e management nas not agreed m a** cases tnat pc*.ution -- "'ng* "9 centre'led c rr -- ^ ' niriStsd. 1 Anc it's true, isn't it, lr. Kelly, that there v/e"-"^ scite cases vnere Monsar.tc' s rtanacrement tic r.ct aerree . - .* . 4 W W . mean, -..ter savs sc Wou.c vtu reac tne next sentence ccr is :r. .\ei_v. A* 'In utter words, at some time curing one test: states rtanacrement has decided that a calculated risk mi; ~ * o q *" -- o r ** C ^ '/ ^ 1~> Q ,a 7-* or* ^ or' -- -a'/a rc sa'5 a " on * q - 0r 3 9VS statement tnere. he - .* 4 . . W V mo: s AC :::-347-37co Federal Reporters, Ixc. Nationwide Coveraee 300-336-oo4e 410*684-. !0 WATER_PCB-SD0000062961 What ? ,vnee_er .vcrnec wa sr>' z - r s i c 9 r. z s 02r. .cl ;e' re You found Mr. Wheeler to be a reloads oerson' nhinx we nave to rsmemcer t.nat .r.o r.ow in 1?5" thinkinc rather than - o C ' Anc t.nere rnav oe ctner :ac: r.at caicu*a- arac *^ * q o v* * *'<-* - n O .nves:^en:, cut certair.^v rev exDensnce vttr. rcanacement was zzaz zzev zzok care -- m cacr, we were supposed to -- in fact, we did look over the design stage 12 manaceir.ent to see that pollution activities were given 12 tons ideratior. and 1 don't recall ar.v cases where we had tc management cecioec r.ct tc centre* to save the recital cost? MR. 3 RAY': Excuse n.e. inject. Where are v 3Y MR MINEll: Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. \ationwtae Coverage 1-0-347-3700 S00-336-oo4o 410-b64-2330 WATER_PCB-SD0000062962 MR. ^RAY: Cb~ecr tc m at characterizatic MR. .'-1C CORNELL; Would you reaa me auest: oa cx .'.ei.v. The reccrter reaa one reccra as reauestsa MR. BRAY': Same cb-ecticn. : Wei., mar's wnar Wneeter says mar time :r r.ot. _ cm r mow. MR. MC CONNELL: Mr. KellY, let rr.e show you a icoumer.r which we will mark row as Kelly Exhibit 40. Kelly Exhibit 40 identifier. BY MR. MC CONNELI: :atea hovem; a Si Do you see mar oc 'QCSA v ' Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage ::2-347-37C0 300-336-6o4b 410-664-2550 WATER_PCB-SD0000062963 - 3n What was the liaiaaaior. resear::, oommi::ee, .'.ei-v ruess it was a committee. Was there a reason that vou were rece: cocies c: tms Kina ti oorresoonaer.ee? MR. BRAY: Excuse me, Dick. 3efore you go into much questioning about this, just looking at the nature of me tooumer.t, warm ireserve anv * bb ~ 'V )n :ne would appear to be a privileged attorney-client communication. And if, as an MCO number on this was .iteration, - wan: i sr a --* "a ^ nv i n a a ve r t s r. t t r cau mourner, a. An: .et me ~usa xee: ie vnc.e __.ne ruestionma, we oar. - ' Oc MR. MC CONNELL: 1 don't aaree witn veur metier., out vou oar. rave a star.air.o ocecti:n Wouit vou reaa tr.e oer.air.a ouestior. oaox The reDcrter reaa tr.e recora as - ar.. > a c -- 2.--- THE WITNESS: Erar.klv, I don't know whv I wa: Ace-Federal Reporters, L\c. Nationwide Coveraee 202-347-3700 800-336-6o46 410-684-2550 WATER_PCB-SD0000062964 9XC9D- "nat. tnev anew a.aaa cscc_e ir. ar.e raecica. aecarttient r.ac some aar.cer.aia. BY MR. mc :bnnel: .N'ho was r.s was ae :unse. c ^ ** -- ^as p.e a vice :ne ccmcarp ;crne::c9 r.e was 'p.' a r.cw wnearer r.e was _. We,, , .ae was ccviaus-v. Thaa was r.is aia.e, re pa ls e _ anc i .0 ,,^oc. And he was also ar.e secreaa: :raticr. A That's cc ' Tr. Ke_lv :r ar.e ca r* a r *- 2 uncer me reecmcr Insurance 'eracre There u'as a imsiuerar_e uiu rcsinrn r a x e n ` c ' ^ c: - a i veraae m ;arer.:u "ne insurance zcmcanies rave iaxen ine cosi-ir. mac. mx :im was --3 ac :ne ma` in me cmr.arv coerami: Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. 202*347-3700 ^ationwtae uoverase 300-336-oo4o i 10-684-2550 WATER_PCB-SD0000062965 zz or.e .c.ar." , ar.e rr.ereicre, dertiec aoveraae. There seems - - re a sacstar.tiai ciiferance ir. .r.surancs celieies, cue nose _r.surar.ee aar.par.iss are aoparer.riv rewriter.e policies ana few r.cw seem oo acceDt roveraae. recei'/ec And Monsar.re Knew ir. Ire, That insurance ` a "- -- c '.v a S o e resi 0 ^^rn^nairv ccs an ac o ;o :cveraae MR. BRAY: Tbiec Tha a C u: BY MR. MC BBNNELl: u car. answer u sav old Mor.sar.ee know chat eg :r.e _awver .awme: tee _aw*ve: .surar.ee come wa s c :r.se oc on e's sav at sOmS ev were ea.-'.i: 7 imoress Ace-Federal Reporters, I\c. \anonwiae Coveraze 02-34,-3,00 300-336-oo4o 410-064-2330 WATER_PCB-SD0000062966 .''.or.san:.: also mew a: :r.a: elms mao obey vers roverea or. coiluoim oases ov rr.eir msurar.re carriers. ' So 10 may ce Mcr.sar.o: .-:new ohao s:r,e companies were corning ic down ouo from one -- my anecccoai exrener.ee was or.ao orev vers covering cases ohao I had anv conoaco vion. We rac cases -- I know obey were ccverir.c fineries cases. Thev were covering auccmobile spray carnage. They were covering SO, from or.sir soacks . Sc I acr.' : relieve your sraoemer.o is correcr. 0 Or. Kellv, Mor.sar.cc v"eceived ohis leorer m er ires sav m exac ese words ave - = -- -- cs C^S 3e ro_lurion was es colder. ne rhao coera- merer ore er.iea ar . -U1 a mm' ec e i veg Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. Nationwide Coverage -32-34r-37C0 SOO-336-oo+o 41 0-6j>4-2530 WATER_PCB-SD0000062967 are 15 50s Travelers :asu: eraae ns Mcnsarrc * .na or.' : knew when snev iaec - was in one ariy `"Cs, ut ohev o -/^'ora /-r c'.* iiberov u uai before raveiers. * Anc ore r.scc ia-ions on nsurar.es nanai0c t/ " ^ 0 ' n s \i a n 0 oeoarorren nv nave erage were we saikec ' ^ O C 0 S 0 f .nv xnewie- a c ss * harr.ar. ? Wherner wa .eca 0CO-8. *f.* 0 2^* 0 p 0U0 haDmar. anc;:r an 3ur s WO U-O r ----- .ibsrov iu0 u e _ ever 'V ~ - o V qt; navsr v , arc auo' ar*c i r. ev r. e v e r o.oev wou.: :e or.ev vou-rr Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. :j:-347-:c.',o Nationwiae Coveraee i>00-336-oo4e 410-6S4-2330 WATER_PCB-SD0000062968 t4 vcu :r.e vd' ?hac would. have beer, r.andlec ar" 1 o jomerccv :tr.er man re, wnear.er cr me insurance cec - su>-ar.cs :re _awvers MR. 3RAY: ;oes MR . 3NNELI an - crc:ic*v means i: Wnereu .-- a 0 wa s av. Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. Nationwide Coverage 232*34/ -3700 s00-33o-oo4o 410-084-2550 WATER_PCB-SD0000062969 : TTC : Wn9r9-ccr., ~ wr'- ;sumec one star. a ana, r.avinc neer. crevicus.v au.v swo: vac ^xa?.' r.sc aac iss'iiisg as z examination BY MR. MANTA; ^ ~ Mv name is Joe Manta. I' n ocino asxirx ;ome ouesticns ana . wi.. enae; :e over_' retentive or tne material t.tat was reverse _r. tne _as' - .a * * = n ^ a.~ tne tox we c erta uest: enuca.s. To vou For vnat . -- -- -- be .so.-- e tox a in worxi e ne Ace-Federal Reporters, L\c. 003-34/-3700 \anomviae Coverage 300-336-oo4b 410-t>84-2oo0 WATER_PCB-SD0000062970 a vees work iers . An ne mers . -i mer es n *->-' catena a a s s .' In order worzs, rhev feed animals remain doses isu an a ues s ave a oemso am ~ - a. -- as ra O-7 er voms a rn ansocss zhaz no ana a -ac an's sor ws aye . AC --2-34/-3700 Federal Reporters, I\c. \atiomviae Coverage 500-33o-<j(>4o 410-664-2530 WATER_PCB-SD0000062971 Anc co v:u r: us* r.ov vou'r: "c a r. c t r. e r / res, air. And isn't it true t.tat cecause ue tc me cit-erenc ;Se ^5 a''a - st tne siz^ inc veicr.t the recipient, c: a dose? sor-ar^s jSt me reor.rase t.tat :u taixec aocut tcxicitv reir.c, ir. tart, cose-ceoer.cer.' ;o vou recall that? A Yes, sir. .Anc ever, a: carticu. .cerr.ec, mat toxicity ceoer.cs ir. ca: : n c '.v e i c r. * .east, :n t: :Xt: :se; isn't that Yes, sir. vou may nave a surstar.ee vr.i: :us .v toxi mans t.tat mav tc sna.-e: .ar s ~^ Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. Nationwide Coverage 332-347-3700 S00-33o-oo4o 410-OS4-2330 WATER_PCB-SD0000062972 eoerr.orr ~r.es yac , srr. z.z. oorr.es. And row oio vou do ohao? aooo anoroa latecomer or ore oox o r wc p* 0 cp n i. rc 2. eld. There was a oreao dea_ XICltv. 3h , roe , - wa abcra o _o . You didr.'o personally do oo? Nc, air. Leo's pc hack row oo encoder area orao was vou nc a a sa ~aooar s/ Ies , sor . wna ca vou were rot sc or was* osa_ ns a s No, I was voived wa s c. _ Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. ---34/-3700 Nationwide Coverage S00-33o-6o4o 410-684-2550 WATER_PCB-SD0000062973 '.vha =5 \ ;sa. Mv vas to ,<eec one executive torr-tittee -- tr.e r.anaremen: group c: the company up to speec on wnetrer me c .vasts management.. you become -- vers you an ex .atters on vaste disposal? I was not. you relv on somsbocv wnc was ac a a - / we re o u w ano vne its waste a v ' a ' s'? ho. <*< e we -'Ci ~ ar ''-s' , was rest - X r* over, o o n s i. waste tis c ve nere to out o -a a /v 4 * a w n e v '.s*e t e Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage --2*o4/*3/to 500-336-oo-k? -*lO-b64-2orC' WATER_PCB-SD0000062974 he whether o wa ea tr.en se 5 _ar. 2_ . dow ::a you raxe -"o -- 1 ^ - rma a A We -ace id available to the executive committee ana saia we aocrcve what thev are aoinc as far as waste * o or :cs2- vou_: racx to tr.err. untt_ i test wit.n cur accrcva... Now, would that have t: nth waste disDOsa. tat wot.: nave recurred a cacitai expenditure. . es Wnat aocut was vers as t.ne r. v c -- v 0 c ecaus* When I as sk CU - ws * srscnd wan we >v* wn a AC ::2-347-37G0 Federal Reporters, Ixc. Nationwide Coverage 700-33o-oo46 410-064-2330 WATER_PCB-SD0000062975 persons - ir.vc .vemer.i was :r.r.ec:::r. vi:r. waste c -\ c -a ' d rn *-=; -- - * aya- -- - ^ 3 C a ' '.e '.: ewnn :ne raecitai aecartr.er. :eaua:e s< i r. e: was "c ::=s , waste manacemer.: :r it is r.c 2lz evsrv t-ar.t r.ave it reDcrt tt tne meaica- i its vasts.' :ew rr.ar.'. _ r. s t a _ _ a 11 a r. s , i r. ma manur at taring manges , yes . 3 what about existma iterations, lie ttev "dve tc retert :r. .tow ttev tistese :: tte waster ay o --or*' => ',arar'--"ar jw ttev tiscc: e tec- ta i0Cfir"",6r. -- rtavoe c:' -- 3 '-* na 3 r* ^ <r v*tat 11 e 3 .a s were no ttev we ia a ant was c -a s tte et t ertec. Ace-Federal Reporters, I\c. \ationwiae Coveraee -02-34/-"00 300-336-oo4j 4I0-6S4-2550 WATER_PCB-SD0000062976 uic vou: one executive ocmrr.i ooe'i wou.u vou sav or.au duriru one ceric: or.ao vou r.ac unis ro^e, u.oau one execuoive cc: Mor.saooc va: ir.ccrrr.ea cc one waso; acoivioi :he nomoar.v? oine r 0 Vd 5-9 d d 5 C C 3 a d C d a ^ Mon s an oc'? A Yes, sir So onao's scmeonino ohao vo\ ' O OVC' wat vou. ,ve*. , 70s , ar,, jncir.eenr.a, r.eacs new die v :ne executive cdirju: :an wrada :r.eni a nemcra: ~ o a r< c 'ara Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. J2-34r-3700 Nationwide Coveraee S00-336-oo4o 410-684-2350 WATER_PCB-SD0000062977 ieir :r.e medical aecartmerv: ; >- '.s'd. S t e Z.1 ^ C^ -- ; uSOU^ t--1 n^ Q Ana aid you ever appear at any meetings of tne sxecutive committee to reDort on waste disccsal matters? : e s, sir. ion' t ,<now now crter. . actearsa ; c -v no*s committee, wou-d actear ter ore one or two c t.tem. - mean. itwn to tne executive mmcar.v ant wnat we rot on t.ois o_ar.t at rer.tcn, Michigan, for example. Q What would u receive? Wouic vou receive restor.se iron vour written retx n0 0x9cu"iv0 "2mrr.lrz.0t 've.., id red.. ' - vor;-: :r,a- wav. We wou.: -> o -XSCUtl Vs u- t99 arid sav we me wav msonc ar* . ' a q * mrresncnuence ana ror* nc men . wou_d ' c '-ac1 ran 1*1 was ana mev'i sav leek, vou've - as ;a .-1 r * vour was de uisocsa. Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. .ationwiae coverage d-34r-3m.no 500-33o-oo4t) 410-684-2550 WATER_PCB-SD0000062978 ' '-ar* ' ic Were t.oese racer's mat vou wrote, were t.nev ' z z n e sxscunva re mm. i r ess Wei., wner. I wcuic soeax to one memrer or one wou. :rr.er,vis5, it m.av verv wei_ .nave oeer tr.e mnttss - - -- g executive tomm111ee . e 9 r u 11e to mm 111 e e I'nc.e mav wei_ nave oeen rnaae ' o s v s -- Now, .c vou eersona.-v co a.nv inscsct: :r. .;ast2 tiseesa. issu ar.v ::s::sa. r.a* - a 9X0CU -1 Vc v.n? rr.a * ' a r o " r* a r.v ir".scrar-1 -- ^ c: Ace-Federal Reporters, I\c. :::-347-'7,"o \atiomviae Coveraee '>00-3?6-od4 4 IQ-644-2530 WATER_PCB-SD0000062979 t i a r. t si"9s , incui i_ r.vcier.e mstec: :a:e:v 'rsceccior.s ci inv -vos ; vaa:? I c-ers:na-.v to wna- jet's creak :: down into a cine frame and let me remrase the cuestior., I'm scrrv, From 1350 on, let's sav from 1950 to I960, d: you personally ao any inspections of any piano site, any nant site, arm :e o: insoecr 3 :.an: s1< suits - wsri^ lie you ac:ua__y zzr.zun an mscectitn ana :i me site aurir.i vcur visit? No, sir You: wou_c nave deer, ror vnat ourocse Aaam, aea.ia: wicr. waste Mo, r: As I unaerstana, vour testimony _s mauct anv msoections oeaiino witr. waste wei. saw one strutters lor. sat to , ^tnn -- a c <2 oo - :oaa . oar.: ireatm.er.t oiar.t at , West Virtinia. I saw . A.____ 3 ee wnat the effluent from this treatment Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. :::-347-"oo \atiomviae Coverage 410-664-2330 WATER_PCB-SD0000062980 jiant naa as rar as vasts material _s ' Cl o .tow efficient it vas. ~z ttat's vnat vou meat cv insoec' lit vcu maKs ar.v stucv at anv nar.ts as .v'nere anv waste ciscosa_ material vas taxer. err site A No, net visit anv that's vnat vou're taixina aocut. ar 3 ^ o a > ' O >"C c nv vast; . -- d I i - ::ar; I ' V 50gr ti'r.srr* vhsr. "risv r.2.ci f i.s^ joxeS/ 1 :aaes at the outfalls of oiar.ts 2 2o vou ,<now vnat I mean rv "outra__s .sna- ^^ ' ro C .ve__, vner Anc mav _eav= 5ometnmo -10 vou :r vnat ouroose/ Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. 347-3700 .anonwiae uoveraee 300-336-ook) 410-064-2330 WATER_PCB-SD0000062981 ruess :: inform mvse_r c: vna: mev were 2 let's aea* SDeci:ica..y witr. .exas _itv, ;; we :ar. at this point, Be you recall visiting any outfalls ; 'exas lity from the Texas Tity plant? A Yes, sir. Thev hac an outfall at Sa.vestcr. Ba' :hev took me mere to snow me teems were oisnm: la_veston = av, ne cock tiers. Whc would nave taken vou cut there' oea vour tare on .- Whc took vou out there' A Weil, whether it was Gilmore or wheths wa s ctetcov m tr.e manufacturing :ei_ vou one it was, out I went out mere. We ta_xec aoc anc said mess are Monsanto emcicvess wr.c :avs to: jut cere "las Mr. Garrett with vou usuai.lv Nct ' 2 -- -- a ------- -- ,3 >- -'no .ere '.-.'a s t e i.xas mtv was cetositsc No, sir it vou nave anv .mowieace or were Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 2:2-347-3700 Nationwide Coveraee >00-336-oo4o M0-684-2330 WATER_PCB-SD0000062982 couu vnere anv :: msa 'w.`paes--teo --~..aa*" :oer;' -a ' rsnsocrta; 303 --'^yxaacs _ 11 v was Ana now .a you acauire tnai Whenever went no a piano, I talked to the anura: '.tendent. I talked to the safety eoartmer.t. . wen* mrcuch the slant inside -- all the sf'^j -- -- --' o r* :nversatior.s, r.e wou_a sav we ar- his t: 9 3v" i. c site ftt ex amt i e , We ' t* e 3 h. i c ci r. t 31 v 19 n e t a. it s something like that to the - 3 Did you make an effort to determine what the n.stituents were of the material that was shipped to 9S9 '.tricus s'tes? what ana t.tev wou_a sav sti__ i'cu_a you mow wmetr.sr tr.e matena_s were toxi .e: . 0x1; Weil, we examnea -- we had toxioitv tests run '.ateriai and from ohe acute ooin.t of Yiew, it was Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. \anonwiae Coveraee 2J2-34/-3700 d00-336-&o46 410-684-2530 WATER_PCB-SD0000062983 moderate-v :ox mccuna wa When u sav ac on ac x c ';es, sir, 'Was there anv aetenranaticr. of the c.orcnac efface :: t.nese cnemaca_s on che environment / was t.nere ar.v stuav cone :: ane ac: - c n e s a enema: irev vers ce: c ^ c -- r* :n`z knew what vou mean -vnerner ane c.nemacaas wou.o tonesre '2n " K, was a term. you usee ear.. Wei., oner; .v weren't anv - tucies taken cf that. There weren't an aw _vmc an tne waste rasccsa. sat: vou.: ray *1 r. 5. - i. c 0 s vrec0 select:ec vets csc^uss ir.sv '.-.*01 inv sa Wo. The reason thev were selected was decaus; Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. J2-j4/ *3/ 00 \anonwiae Coverage S00-336-oo46 41 0-o64-2ttO WATER_PCB-SD0000062984 rt vas :ur .moress i: :na: :.h.ev were sa:e to oisccse :: , Thar the Beaumont :lav at the Texas vers state cf one art in Tsxas . Thsv vers ov she Texas vatsr cua_itv hoars. There were 1200 suer, sires around our Texas lity ci^r.t, and ir vas rhe rammer, method of vaste disposa- at that rime. 1 Was this something tr.at you vould have learnec from Mr. Zarrett, :r vas tr.is sometni.no vou fount out on your own investigation.' A Oh, I guess I learnec more from. Zarrett. More from Garrett than my own investigation, yes. 1 2 In terms of the vaste a l sposal practices at 1 2 Texas Zi ty, for instance, and v hat vas done , vould it be 14 :air to say that Mr. Zarr ett' s vledge vould it oe 4 1 greater and in more dectr. than VOU rs ? Much treater than mine, certamiv. Mow, vou indicated tr.at vou `.vers r.ot involves _r. ar.v e s , estioa :es, sir. .ec vou ver- ;_vec ir. r.scmrtmr tne uacemen' or insurance Ace-Federal Reporters, L\c. -32*34/-3/ 00 \ationwiae Coveraee ^OO-jjo-ooh) 410-664-25tO WATER_PCB-SD0000062985 : 9 a _ vri e ir.su ar.v a: Ace-Federal Reporters, I.\c. Nationwide Coverage u S00-33o-6o4o 410-6S4-25r0 WATER_PCB-SD0000062986 e A fou indicated earlier chat there were terrain stances wnere vou said mac an a.nsurance ccmoanv covered arms ror co. Do vcu recall char? A Yes, sir. Q How did you know char? A I guess worn of r.ouch. 1 You didn't nave anvrhinu direcclv from an surance company indioacir.g char they did or aid not ver particular claims, did you? A No, sir. 1 And you don't know, as to any claim, what the tuai decision of the insurance ccmoanv was. wnether i' ,-as not, m oac :overea, co vou; Mo, :o vou1 rs "ust taikincr about chinos vou ~av nave c.nese o_aims na' Weil, ves , and it seemeo that mere was no mcr; rrestcnaence aoout mar.ts c.nai near a more acti me so I rnoucrhr thev were cisocsec Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. '^-347.3700 Nationwide Coverage M30-336-oo4o ,10-654-2330 WATER_PCB-SD0000062987 308 2 3ut you don't know whether or not the insurance ccmoanv actually covered those claims, do you-? A No, I don't. It was my impression that they tic, though. 2 Impression from what people have said, people o told you? A Yes, people in Monsanto, right. 2 Did you ever deal with anyone from an insurance company directly on these claims? 1*. ur\ A No, sir. 1 ' Q So you never saw anything from an insurance 12 company indicating that it did cover these claims; is that correct ? A No, but I would -- oil spray, paint spray damage, when I was at the Queer.v Plant as a plant physician, a * o worker would come in and say look, I've got all this spray or. my automobile, and I said well, talk to the insurance 13 people about it. Q Q When you say 'the insurance people," do you mean the Monsanto insurance department? A Yes,. sir. 4 4 Q And you don't know who paid for that, do you? Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwiae Coverage 102-347-3700 800-336-646 410-684-2530 WATER PCB-SD0000062988 i ii.3~ Uf\ 2C9 1 A. No, but he got paid. 2 V He got paid by somebody, out you don't know who 3 actually paid it? *1* 1 A No, I don't. i Q Now, did you ever do any plant visits with any 6 represent ative of Liberty Mutual? 7 ` A Oh, yes. 3 g And who would they be? q A Chuck Williams, Dr. Chari es Williams. 10 Q Anyone else? ' i A I don't know the other names, but he wasthe 12 point man for them. He was the top representative. 1 ? Q .--.e was the head of their industrial hygiene department, wasn't he? c. A Yes, sir. -0 Q Did these inspectionsdealprimarily with worker safety, industrial hygiene matters? ' 13 A Well, I don't know if I should say primarily. VO It dealt both with the neighborhood cases, if any, and 2 0 also the working environment cases. Q What visits do you recall that dealt with 22 neighborhood cases? Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 800-336-6646 410-684-2530 WATER_PCB-SD0000062989 210 A Colombia, Tennessee. Q Was than a fluoride situation? A What? Q Fluoride situation? i A That's correct. o Q Anywhere else? A Soda Springs. Q Fluoride ? A Yes, sir. i ! 1Z i -1 : Q Anywhere else? A Gosh, there were some others. mind . Q If they do come to mind,would They may come to you let me know. A I certainly shall. Q But the two you recallwerefluoridesituations, _ o weren't they? A What? Q The two you recall, Columbia and Silver Springs, were fluoride situations; correct? ~ u A That's correct. Q And did you ever see the Liberty policy to Monsanto, any Liberty policy to Monsanto, insurance Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 800-336-6646 410-684-2350 WATER_PCB-SD0000062990 54225.; policy? A No, sir, r.ot see any. Q Do you know whether or not there was a fluoride endorsement on any of the Liberty policies to Monsanto? A I don't know. Q Do you recall any visits with any Liberty oersonnel to the Texas City plant? >tt, Yes, at the time of the Texas Ci ty explosion. 5 Q That was in 1947? 10 A Yes, sir. - j- Q After that, do you recall any -- specifically 2 Zn, recall any visits you had with any Liberty Mutual employee * '\ to the Monsanto Texas City plant? *_ ti A Your voice dropped off at the end. 1 - 2 I'm sorry, and I apologize. The question wasn't 1 5 very clear either. Other than the Texas C ity explosion - 7 situation, do you recall any visits that you had to the 1 3 Texas C ity plant with any employee of Libe rty Mutual? 1 9 A I don't recall. :o Q Do you recall when you were a member of the MCA ;i aenera1 safety committee that part of the duties was to 22 develop safety data sheets? Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 202-347-3700 Nationwide Coverage 800-336-6646 410-684-2330 WATER_PCB-SD0000062991 'b 31 A Yes, sir. Q And how are the chemicals selected that would have these safety data sheets? ' A I would say it all depended on how many inquiries they might have gotten from their members or individuals who were not members who would write in and sav, what do you know about hydrochloric acid. And if they got enough of those, they'd say well, let's put hydrochloric acid on our agenda for writing a safety data sheet, and they'd look around to the members of the committee and say who will we have do this. * 4. Q And were these safety data sheets then assigned to various individuals to develop? A That's right. Yes, sir. Q Did the safety data sheets have a section on - 0 waste disposal? A They may have later on. The early days they did not, as far as I can tell. (Kelly Exhibit 41 identified., 3Y MR. MANTA: Q I show you a document marked for identification as Kelly Number 41. It purports to be a copy of the Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 800-336-6646 410-684-2530 WATER PCB-SD0000062992 54225 . C jb 1 ; I \ : 312 minutes of the joint meeting of the general safety 2 committee and medical advisory committee under the date cf 3 January 19, 1948. Do you see that? 4 A Yes, sir. ii 5 Q Were these minutes of the various meetings, were 5 they prepared regularly after each meeting? 7 ' A Were they prepared right after - 3 Q Was it usual to get minutes of a meeting? 9 A Was -it usual to get the minutes after the 10 meeting? 11 Q After a meeting. Were minutes usually kept cf a 12 : II 13 meetina? ' A ' Oh, yes, I would say within two weeks we'd get 14 them. r> Were these minutes prepared in the regular 16 course or the operation of the committee; is that right? A That's correct. 1 8 I'd like to refer you to the third page, if you 19 would. Before I do, do you see in terms of the attendees 20 that you were present at that meeting, Dr. Kelly? 2 1 A That's corr ect. 22 : Q Let's go to the third page, if you will, sectic Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 800-336-6646 410-684-2550 WATER PCB-SD0000062993 6, "Waste DisDosai." Do you see that, sir? A Yes. ' Q Let me read the first sentence to you. It says "Arnold reported verbally on his survey of the waste disposal section and the difficulties in preparing a model section." Do you see that? A Yes, sir. Q Do you recall what difficulties he was talking about in preparing a model section on waste disposal? A No, I don't. Q Does thisreflect your recollection that in the 1940s, or at least as of 1948, there was a waste disposal section for the safety data sheets? A I don't know if that .said there was one or they were talking about it, a survey of the waste disposal section. I don't know if that was a preliminary plan to have one or not. ' Q Do you recall at the time that there were waste disposal sections but Arnold's assignment was to get a standard model kind of a section for waste disposal? Do you recall that? A I don't recall it. I don't know which of the Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-3-17-3700 800-336-6646 410-684-2330 WATER PCB-SD0000062994 - companies Arnold was in when he was in the general 2 safety. I don't think he was on the medical adviso rv 3 committee 4 Q What committee were you on? 5 A Medical advisory. 0 Q Medical advisory committee. Did Monsanto have a - represent ative cn the general safety committee? o A Yes . C Q Who would that have been, do you recall? --t n\j A I beg your pardon? * i Q Who would that have been? 12 A I don't know who. 13 v Would it have been Mr. Gorbel, do you thi nk ? 1 4 A Well, he wasn't listed on this one. 2 5 Do you see any other Monsanto employee li stea as 15 an attendee at this meeting? 17 A Looks like I'm the only one. I don't know if IS any of these other people are Monsanto employees or not. 19 Gorbel was working for Monsanto at that time, but I don't 2C see him listed on here. 21 Q Do you recall a history of the industrial 22 hygiene department at Monsanto prepared by Mr. Henshaw? . Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage ! 202-347-3700 300-336-6646 410-684-2350 WATER_PCB-SD0000062995 316 A Yes . Q That was prepared after you left? . A That's correct. Q Were you consulted on material to go into that document? A He may have called me for dates or something like that, but I certainly didn't see much about the retort in either a draft stage or final stage. Q Do you have any recollection as to whether or 10 not you were interviewed concerning the preparation of that document? ^ Z A I have no recollection, but I said I might very ' ~X well have had a telephone call from Henshaw. * *t Q But you have no recollection of that? A No, sir. Q Do you recall a jointLiberty-Monsanto inspection of some of the plants in 1950? A Yes, sir. Q You did not take part in that inspection; is that correct? A I personally did not. Members of the medical z Z department did. Wheeler took part in the inspection. I Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 800-336-6646 410-684-2530 j WATER_PCB-SD0000062996 don't know if Garrett did. Q Did you ever see any document emanating from that inspection? A You mean the results of the -Q Yes. A I feel sure I did, but I have no recollection of what I saw or what the details were. I remember correspondence about the formation of the committee that our president, Mr. Rand, who was on the board of directors of liberty, said sure, we think you people ought to go around with some of our individuals, and I know he and Wheeler -- Wheeler and Liberty Mutual people went around to all the plants, I believe, over a period of six months. Q Do you recall, how long they spent at each of the plants? A I thought four or five days. Q Do you recall -- did you ever receive any report from Mr. Henshaw about the inspection -- I'm sorry, from Mr. Wheeler about the inspection? A I don't know -- I don't recall having seen a reDort. I don't know who would issue the report. I don't know who was the chairman of the committee, whether it was Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 800-336-6646 410-684-2550 WATER PCB-SD0000062997 somebody at Liberty or somebody at Monsanto, I don ' t know. Q Do you recall regardless of who was the chairman, whether Mr. Wheeler reported to you concerning what was done at the inspection and what the results were? A Well, he reported to me orally, sure. Q And do you recall what he said to you? A Weil, we went through all our plans. We cave him a pretty good going over and everybody seemed happy. I don't think there were any earthshaking changes that we made in our procedures. Q Was there ever -- you have a recollection of him saying that. Do you recollect him saying anything else? A No, sir, I don't. Q Do you recollect any written report from Mr. Wheeler to you? A No, sir. I don't recall ever seeing a final written report or even a draft copy of a report. Q Do you recall ever seeing any type of report from anyone concerning this inspection? A No, sir. Q And basically what you know about this Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 800-336-6646 410-684-2550 WATER PCB-SD0000062998 319 inspection is what you told us here today about what Mr. Wheeler told you; is that right? A Well, I know when it was set up. I know the details of how it was set up and when it was set up. Q Would you tell us when it was set up and why? A I said it was a communication between Rand, our president, and some of the top people at Liberty Mutual and I saw a memorandum about that that they were stating who was going to be -- what representatives were going to be on it. Q Who issued that memorandum? A I don't know, but I've seen it, I think, in preparation for this deposition here. MR. MANTA: If there is, I'd like to see it because I request that it be produced. I have not seen any such memorandum. BY MR. MANTA: ' Q Is there any other memorandum that you saw in connection with this inspection? A No, sir. Q And what did the memorandum say, do you recall? A Well, it just says that -- I'm not sure it was Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 800-336-6646 410-684-2550 WATER_PCB-SD0000062999 320 at the request of Liberty -- it must have been, but I'm croing to have to assume that, that somebody brought it up to Rand. He said weii sure, we'll have a group go around with you people and we'll go to all our plants and let everything hang out and tell you what we're doing and what our problems are, and you can see for yourself. And so they did. Q Had there been a problem before this in getting access to the Monsanto plants? A Not that I knew of. Q Do you know, if there was no problem before, why this inspection.was necessary? A Not on Monsanto's part. I don't know if there was a problem from Liberty Mutual or not. Q Do you know whether or not Liberty had to sign a confidentiality agreement before Monsanto would agree to the inspection? A I don't know but that wouldn't be under my responsibility. Q Have you ever seen this confidentiality agreement? . A No, sir. Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. NaHomvide Coverage 202-347-3700 $00-336-6646 410-684-2550 WATER PCB-SD0000063000 Q How long was Mr. Rand on the board at liberty, do you knew? A I don't know. Q There were other -- at various times other officials of Monsanto were on the board of Liberty, weren't there? A I don't know. Rand was the only one I knew. Q Do you know who Mr. Rand dealt with at Liberty in connection with setting up this inspection? A No, sir. Q Was there ever any other inspection like this after 1950, to your knowledge? A After what? Q Was there ever any othersimilar inspection, joint inspection by Liberty and Monsanto after the 1950 inspection? A I don't think there was as formal a program as this one, but I do know that Williams and Wheeler and/or Wheeler and Garrett went around to various plants. I know that I went to some plants with Williams on specific problems, but there was nofull-blown inspection, organized inspection that I know of. Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 800-336-6646 410-684-2550 WATER PCB-SD0000063001 4226.0 1 J. Q_ So -he other inspections would have been the type of loss prevention inspections that were- regularly 3 carried on by insurance companies? A Weil, I don't know what the regular inspection 5 insurance company carrier is. 6 Q Why don't you tell me about the inspections that you were involved in with Liberty. 3 A Well, we had our bladder problem. 9 Q The PAB problem? 10 A Yes. Liberty Mutual went around to the plants 11 where they were manufactured and used the 12 , para-aminobiphenyl. 1 3 Q And that's because Liberty was the workmen's 1^ -4i compensation carrier; isn't that right? 15 A I suppose, but it also was that in Europe there 16 were cases of bladder carcinoma. They occurred in tire -< n manufacturing companies and Liberty Mutual was concerned 18 about the fact that there might be cases in -- the workers 19 in the Big Three and the tire people. 20 Q But as far as their inspection, it was as to the 21 Monsanto operation, wasn't it? 22 A That's correct. Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 800-336-6646 410-684-2530 WATER_PCB-SD0000063002 323 Q What ether type of inspection that you were involved with Lliberty? A I beg your pardon? Q What other type of inspection where you were involved with L iberty? A I'm t rying to think. We had them pretty frequently in t his one memorandum where I said -- the memorandum in ' ~5 I wrote to Roush. Q 1975? A Yes . Q That would have been Travelers, not Liberty? A Yes, but that's when the memorandum was written and I was quoting the problems that we had and they were ongoing problems in our phosphorus plants where they had dust and fluoride and SO^ Q I don't mean to cut you off. My question has to do with any specific inspections that you have recollections of, not just the general nature of what they may have inspected. I'm talking about anything you specifically have recollection of that you were involved with . A No, sir, I don't recall any specific ones. I Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 800-336-6646 410-684-2550 WATER_PCB-SD0000063003 324 know there were some but I don't know specifically which areas . * Q Sitting here today, can you tell us anything about any other -- specifically about any other inspection you may have been on with Liberty? ' A I may have been what? Q Can you tell us anything specifically about any inspection that you may have been on with Liberty Mutual employees ? A I was specific about the PABs. Q That's right. A I don't know any other specific cases, but it is my recollection that there were other cases, other types of inspections on isolated problems at various individual plants because I know that during the years that I was at Monsanto, I was fairly frequently in contact with the Liberty Mutual people. In fact, when we hired Jack, we sent him up to Liberty Mutual for several weeks, I believe. Q Mr. Garrett testified about that in his deposition. (Pause.; Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 800-336-6646 410-684-2550 WATER_PCB-SD0000063004 4 2 2 5. ^ b * i | / 1 1 I ' ! 2 325 BY MR. MANTA: ' Q Dr. Kelly, we were speaking off the -record about 3 . the memorandum that you talked about setting up or I 4 ! discussing the teams who were going to conduct the 1950 5 ' Liberty/Monsanto inspection. And in discussing it with 5 ' Mr. Bray, there's a question as to whether that's a :i " 'j separate document or whether that was part of the Henshaw 3 report. Do you have any recollection -- ? A It was not a separate document. I thought I 10 mentioned before that it was part of a larger document, 11 : not just devoted to Rand and the Liberty Mutual inspection 12 : 1 13 team. . MR. MANTA: Mr. 3ray, to the extent there is a 14 document separate and apart from the Henshaw report, I'd 15 like it produced because we have looked and made requests 15 at various depositions for any documentary support for 17 that section of Mr. Henshaw's report, including any report 13 that may have allegedly emanated from Liberty or from o^ anyone else. We requested that on a number of occasions 20 and we have not received it. 21 MR. BRAY: Let me say, I'm listening to the back 22 . and forth on this and trying not to get involved in it, | Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 . 800-336-6646 410-684-2550 WATER_PCB-SD0000063005 326 but what it sounds like to me is a piece of the Henshaw report or a reference to something in the Henshaw report. MR. MANTA: If that's the case, that's fine. You can let me know and that will be fine, but I want to let you know I've requested now and we've requested at other depositions that if there are any other documents, either in connection with this inspection, either in the setting it up, the confidentiality agreement, which we specifically asked for, any reports resulting from the inspection, we would like to have those produced because we nave not seen them. . MR. 3RAY: I understand. To my knowledge, there are no unproduced documents relating to this and I'll go back and look. I think there were . a number of documents prccuced as hard copy by the Defendants in the seven-day lists, documents for seven-day lists. I can go back easily and check those, but I think I can identify what has been described, and I think it's a piece of what I think of as the Henshaw report. MR. MANTA: I'm aware of the Henshaw report, but what I requested is ether data and we have not seen any other data, any other documents dealing with this Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 800-336-6646 410-664-2550 WATER_PCB-SD0000063006 .o 327 1 ; so-called inspection other than Hensnaw's report. 2 MR. BRAY: For your information ana "use here 3 today, I know of no unproduced documents on that subject. : MR. MANTA: Well, if you know of any produced in : documents, because there may be a question as to whether 1 or not it is produced or not, because we obviously -- it i 1 j would be something we would obviously look very carefully ! "* 3 at and have not seen. 9 ! BY MR. MANTA: 10 1 11 i ;t 12 1! i 13 ' Q Let me r efer you to Kelly Exhibit Number 32, Dr. Kelly. A Yes , sir Q Now, Dr. Kelly, I'm going to again refer to the 14 second paragraph which I believe has already been read 13 into the record so i'll just have you -- if you could look 15 it over, read it to yourself. 17 Is it fair to say on the basis of this report 13 that the only way it was determined that the TBA had an 19 effect on these animals was by sacrificing and 2C pathologically sectioning the animals? 21 A I do not know if there was pathology done. 22 ! Usually in acute studies, the animal dies before -- the | Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. j Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 800-336-6646 410-684-2330 WATER PCB-SD0000063007 34 Z. n^ w * ~ >-/ ~b 328 1 choice of pathology that anybody dies -- I mean, it's 1 congestion of the various viscera. There may ice 3 hemorrhages in the viscera so. u Q Weil, do you know whether or not in this case 5 they were sacrificed cr whether or not they died from the 5 acute exposure? 7 A I can't make it out from here. 3 2 3ut in any event, what is reported as the effect 3 of the TBA on the animals was information gained from 10 pathological investigation; is that correct? 11 A Toxicological investigations? 12 Q Pathological investigation, I believe itsays 13 here. Doesn't that include cutting up the organs of the 14 animals? 15 A Yes, cut it doesn't include sticking a piece 15 under a microscope. It doesn't include putting a slide of 17 tissue under a microsccpe. 13 Q Isn't it true, though, you may have a dose to an 19 animal and you may not be able to tell clinically of any 2C effect on the animal but the only way you can tell is 21 through a pathological examination? 22 A Yes, but you may have a dose that kills an Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 800-336-6646 410-684-2350 WATER PCB-SD0000063008 229 animal-in 20 minutes and he's dead before there's any pathology that's discernible. * Q Even if there's not a fatal dose, that an animal, including human beings, can receive a dose, show no clinical affects but on a pathological study, show affects from the exposure to the toxic substance; isn't that correct? A You lose me on your last half of the question. Q If a human or any other animals are exposed to a toxic substance, isn't it true that there may be no clinical signs of an adverse effect, but pathologically after studies of the organs, there can be an adverse effect on the organs found out? A Yes, sir, but that is by slides, microscopic examination, which does not usually occur in an acute type of testing because the condition is overwhelming, are dead before you've got the opportunity to see the changes in the microscopic structure cf the various organs. Q I understand that. But on paragraph 2 of Kelly 22 this, in fact, talks about a pathological investigation, doesn't it? A Yes, but it doesn't say what type. In other Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 300-336-6t>46 410-684-2530 WATER_PCB-SD0000063009 54226.C A 330 words, here are these animals, took the very corrosive 2 material by mouth. It showed effects on the "lungs, liver 3 and intestinal tract. 4 , Q How would you determine that other than by examining it under a microscope? , 5 A Well, you look at it. If you -- Q A gross specimen would be able to tell? 3 A Yes. If you had an irritating substance like 9 this is, you look down the throat and look at the stomach 10 there's"corrosion in it. 11 Q Would you agree at a dose lower than this acute 12 1 13 dose that there would be microscopic damage to these organs before there was gross damage discernible? _ 4 A I don't think there would in this case because the gross damage is the corrosive action. If you didn't 16 have any corrosive action, I don't think you'd have any 1 7 other problems with it. 13 Q I'm not talking specifically about TBA. I'm 19 talking about any exposure, that there's going to be 20 Z. i* l 22 : microscopic damage, pathological damage before there is either gross damage visible or death? ' A Yes, there could be situations like that. Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 800-336-6O46 410-684-2550 WATER_PCB-SD0000063010 Q. Now, the second sentence of this paragraph says "The same type cf pathology was noted fellowing skin application. ' Does that indicate to you that the material was absorbed through the skin and caused the same problems, acute problems? A No. I think that's unclear because the same type of pathology, if that means the corrosion, if that what we're talking about, corrosion on the intestinal tract by having contact with the intestinal tract, corrosion on the lungs by inhaling the stuff, if that's the pathology they're talking about, that's one thing. If they're talking about problems with the liver, which this material does not come in contact with, that's a different baiigame. And if -- it mentions here "the same type of pathology was noted following skin application." I find that hard to explain because I don't have enough facts. Q How would the material, TBA, affect the lungs here? A I don't know how it was given. It says here it's extremely toxic from the standpoint of inhalation in concentrated form. That's in paragraph 1. So it was Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 800-336-6t>46 410-684-2350 WATER PCB-SD0000063011 332 inhaled. Q How would it affect the intestinal tract, then? A It was swallowed. Q Aren't those two different pathways? A One, you inhale and the other, you swallow it. Q But if it's inhalation, how would it affect the intestinal tract, and how would it affect the liver? If you're talking about merely contact, corrosive contact effect and not a systemic effect, how would the exposure affect the lungs, the liver and the intestinal tract? A Well, first of all, it affects the lungs by being inhaled. That's number one. Two, it affects the intestinal tract by being swallowed. Q But we're only talking about inhalation here, it said . A He said it is extremely toxic from the standpoint of inhalation. Q If the only exposure is through inhalation and the only effect is a contact corrosive effect, how could it adversely affect the liver and the intestinal tract? A Well, I believe that we're talking about two different types of examination here. Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 800-336-6646 410-684-2530 WATER PCB-SD0000063012 333 Q- You think there may be ingestion as well as inhaiaticn here? ' A Yes. Usually in an acute package of toxicity, inhalation, oral administration, skin contact and eye contact, so if I were to see what the experiment was with TBA, I could clarify it a great deal. I don't know what he talked about, how he got the liver involved on an acute study because by the time it gets around to affect the liver, it has to be absorbed and affect the liver and cause pathology from a microscopic point of view. Usually the animal is dead by then and the pathological process ceases . Q It wouldn't have to be a systemic effect then? A If it did, out I don't know what effects the pathology was doing on the liver. I did say the kidneys were not involved. Q Let's refer, if I can, to Kelly Number 38. A Yes, sir. Q This is the minutes of the meeting of the medical advisory committee dated October 5, 1960. Do you see that, sir? A Yes, sir. Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 800-336-6646 410-684-2530 WATER_PCB-SD0000063013 54225 . C ib 334 Q You were indicated as present and as the chairman that meeting. Do you recall? ' A Yes, sir. Q Do you recall the meeting, sir? A I don't recall this specific one. They start off when was chairman with quarterly meetings. Q Now, item 1 -- these minutes, they were again prepareds a regular part of the business of this committee? 10 A Yes, sir, but I don't recall the minutes being II in this form where it's not a verbatim account but 1 L intended to reveal the thinking of the committee on the 1 0 matter and I don't think this was circulated to the committee in order to see what their thinking was, I don't think they sent these minutes to me and said is this what you said? Is this what you meant by this stuff? Q Let's put aside for one moment accuracy, whether 13 or not it's accurate. Was it part of the regular course of this committee to have minutes of their meetings? 20 A Yes. Q And these are the minutes of the meeting of z z October 5, i960; is that correct? Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 300-336-6646 410-684-2530 WATER PCB-SD0000063014 335 ; a - Well, no, it isn't correct because it's not the / minutes . It's a secretary's estimation of of what the 0 ,1 4 1 5 ! thinking of the committee was, not really what they said or what they did. It was just the secretary said this is what I t hink Kelly meant when he was talking about this 5 :i particul ar problem. i 7 :i Q Doesn't the heading of this indicate minutes of 1 3 ' meeting? 9 . A Sure it does . io : 'i ii n i: i12 ij 13 ' nV ' And if you look at item 1 under it, it says "minutes of the May 19, 1960 meeting were approved." Do you see that? A Yes, sir. - A Q Do you recall communicating to the secretary any 15 ob j ectio n as to the contents cf this document? 16 A No, sir. j. / Q And do you recall whether or not at the next 18 meeting they were, in fact, they were approved at the next - O meeting? 20 A I don't remember. 2! , Q You don't remember objecting to these minutes, 22 : do VOU? Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 800-336-6o46 410-684-2550 WATER_PCB-SD0000063015 34225. J jb 336 i A No, sir. *! i Q In the regular course of the way these minutes - : were kep t, they would have been submitted for approval at 4 the next meeting, wouldn't they? ii A Yes, sir. 5 MR. MANTA: Can we take just about five minutes i ^ { because I may be pretty much wrapped up at this point. 3 :Recess. , Q 3Y MR. MANTA: :o i ii ii 32 i 13 Q Dr. Kelly, I just have a few more questions. A Fine. Q Did you ever visit the North 80 site? A No, sir. 14 Q Did you ever visit the Brio site? 2 3 A No, sir. 1 6 Q Did you ever visit the MOTCO or the Wye site? - A No, sir. 13 Q Did you ever visit the South 20 site? 19 A No, sir. 20 Q So you never conducted any investigations 21 personally as to any of those sites, did you? 22 : A No, I did not. Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 300-336-6646 410-684-2550 WATER PCB-SD0000063016 54225 1b 337 Q Do you recall the name of any Liberty employee who you dealt with other than Chuck Williams?- A No. There was a man in St. Louis who was in administration of Liberty Mutual. He's not a scientist, to the best of my recollection. Q Would that have been Les Lancaster? A That is he, yes. Q And he wasthe sales rep at the St. Louis office; right? A He's what? Q The sales rep for the Monsanto account? A He was? Is that right? Q Do you recall any technical employees of Monsanto, the loss prevention or the industrial hygiene oeoartment, other than Chuck Williams who you may have had any dealings with? A No, sir, I don'tremember their names. MR. MANTA: That's all I have. Thank you. (Discussion off the record.) EXAMINATION BY MS. SCHIFFER: Q Dr. Kelly, I'm Lois Schiffer and I'm a lawyer at Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 S00-336-tx>46 410-684-2350 WATER PCB-SD0000063017 54 226 . 0 1b 338 1 i the law firm of Nussbaum & Wald. I represent certain i 2 underwriters at Lloyd's of London in this case. My 3 1 questions will be here and there since I want to try not 4 to duplicate questions that you've already been asked. 5 This case is presently scheduled to go to trial 6 . in October of 1993. Would you be available to come to 7 j that trial, Dr. Kelly? 8 A Yes, I will. 9 MS. SCHIFFER: I want to note for the record 10 4 :| 11 j 12 |i,1!l 1 13 1 that th is deposition is being taken as part of the Trial Group 1 aspect of this case, which relates to five of the sites I. n this case, and the Defendants reserve the right to take your deposition further as it relates to the other sites in this case. 15 -'MR. BRAY: As we've said on a number of prior 16 I depositions, that's not a position that the Plaintiff 17 1 agrees with. 18 MS SCHIFFER: I want to note for the record 19 that that is Defendants' position and we believe it's 20 sustained by orders of this Court. 2 1 BY MS. SCHIFFER: 22 Q Dir Kelly, I'd like to invite your attention Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 300-336-6646 410-684-2550 WATER PCB-SD0000063018 54225 . u j .: 339 1 again.to Kelly Exhibit Number 33 in this case which are --! the minutes of the Manufacturing Chemists Association, 3 medical advisory committee meeting, dated October 5, 19 4A -t and I'd like to invite your attention to page 6 of thos u , minutes, please. 6 A Yes . / Q Do you note under the date October 7, i960 3 there's a line that says "minutes subject to approval"? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Does that note refresh your recollection that 11 i 12 ! this is a draft of minutes of that meeting? A Well, yes, this is a draft of the minutes, bu 13 have to say that the secretary did not say these are 1 4 verbatim accounts of the minutes but it's a description 15 her words of what the general thinking of the committee 16 was on this particular matter. In fact, she says that 17 page 1 . 18 Q Were the minutes of the medical advisory 19 committee meetings kept verbatim or were they indeed 20 minutes in the format that you see here? 21 A This is the first time I ever remember seeing 22 something like this. I thought they were kept more or Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 800-336-6b46 410-684-2550 WATER_PCB-SD0000063019 - D 340 1 J less verbatim. 2 Q In your capacity as chair, would you have noted 3 if these were minutes that were not kept in the usual 4 ! format for minutes? 5 ' A To the best of my recollection, I do not recall i 5 that particular secretary note on other minutes of this i 7 > committee. ct> Q Does the form of these minutes look the same as Q I j 10 } i 11 !li 12 in:ii 13 the form of minutes of other meetings of this committee? A ' No, it really doesn't. They sort of just -- the other ones talked about almost what the majority view of the committee was rather than attributing statements to 15 people, individual members of the committee. Q But you regard these as more accurate than the usual? 15 A I beg your pardon. 17 Q Would you regard these minutes as more detailed 13 and more accurate than usuai minutes of these meetings? 19 A Well, there are two statements. One, they're 20 more detailed, and I'm not sure that they're more 21 : I l 22 I accurate. I don't know if she reflects the thinking ' correctly of 15 different people there. Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 800-336-6646 410-684-2530 WATER_PCB-SD0000063020 54 226 . 1b Q Would you say they're equally accurate as the usual minutes? ' A They're equally accurate as other minutes? Q Correct. A I just don't remember. I mean, I don't have that much recollection of what each of these people were thinking. Q Do you believe this accurately reflects what you thought and what you said? 10 A Well, let's see. I have to decide what we mean by industrial problems in environmental health. Nobody 12 really said what this is that I talked about what Hull could do. I don't know if the top statement on page 3 is correct, if that accurately reflected my thoughts. I think if industry could raise the price of its commodities, it could reduce the pollution level. I don't know if that's a realistic statement or not or if that reflected all my thoughts in 1960 because there are some things, no matter how much money you put into it, you can't cure it. Q Would it have reflected what you said at that meeting, Dr. Kelly? Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 SOO-336-t>646 410-684-2550 WATER PCB-SD0000063021 342 A . What? Q Would that sentence have reflected what you said at that meeting, Dr. Kelly? A It may or it may not. I don't really know and there may be stuff left out that would explain more than this bold statement. Q Dr. Kelly, as chair of the committee, would you have reviewed the minutes of a meeting before the next meeting? A Probably, but this didn't look like it was going to be a big deal come out in this meeting. I'm looking back at it 30 years. I don't know what we accomplished at that meeting. Q If the minutes would have been inaccurate, would you have raised it at the next meeting and corrected the minutes ? A Yes . Q To your knowledge, did youcorrect these minutes at the subsequent meeting? A No, I didn't. Q Dr. Kelly, were you amember of any organizations that were involved in industrial health or Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 800-336-6o46 410-684-2550 WATER_PCB-SD0000063022 A Yes. I was a member of the American Industrial Occupational Medical Association. I was. Q Could you repeat the name, please, the American - A The Occupational Medical Society, I guess it was, and there was another, American Academy of Occupational Medicine. I wasn't involved in any industrial hygiene association. I was involved in the medical committee of the American Petroleum Institute and the medical committee of National Agricultural Manufacturers Association. I guess that's it. Q I'd like to go back through the list and have you tell me the years that you were either a member or involved in each of these organizations. The first is me American Occupational Medical Society. A Oh, gosh, 1938 to '55 or something like that. Q Was that organizationfounded before 1938? A Yes . Q Do you know approximately when it would have been founded? A I thought it was founded in the '20s sometime. Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 102-347-3700 S00-336-6646 410-684-2550 WATER_PCB-SD0000063023 344 Q. How about the American Academy of Occupational Medicine, when were you involved in that organization? A It was founded in the '60s. I think I stayed with that untCL I retired from Monsanto. Q You ;joined it when it was founded? A Yes Q When were you a member of or involved with the medical commit::ee of the American Petroleum Institute? A Abou:: 1958 when we took over and Monsanto acquired Lion Oil Company. Q And until approximately what year were you involved with that organization? A I beg your pardon? Q Until approximately what year were you involve with that organization? A Until we sold Lion Oil, which was, I think, ir. the mid-'60s. Q And the last one you listed was the medical committee of the American Manufacturers Association? A National Agricultural Manufacturers Associatic Q During what years were you involved with cr a member of that committee? Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 800-336-6646 410-684-2350 WATER_PCB-SD0000063024 ' D 245 A _ '60s and '~ Os. Q Did you attend meetings of each of these four organizations ? A Yes, I did. Q Could you tall meapproximately now frequently those meetings occurred. A Once a year for the societies and conceivably once or twice a year for the committees. Q Did you attend seminars and conferences that were held by the societies and the committees? A Not too often. 12 Q Did you attend them at all? 13 A I may have attended isolated ones. I didn't make it a routine habit of going to any of their seminars once a year or something like that. I didn't do that. Q Do you remember the subject matter of any of the seminars that .you attended? A Gosh, I don't remember. They obviously didn't make a great impression on me. ^ r\ Q What was the purpose for which you were involved with the four organizations that you've listed? ? 9 A Well, one, the American Petroleum Institute, I Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 SOO-336-6646 410-684-2350 WATER_PCB-SD0000063025 346 didn't know much about: oil refineries or the oil business, so I thought I'd go along and see what I could find out. The agricultural chemical manufacturers, I went there because I thought I could learn from them. After ail, we were relatively recent in the agricultural business, and I went there for self-education. And the others were just oiain old industrial medical societies. Q Was worker safety one of the subjects that was discussed by these organizations? A Yes. Q Did you participate in those discussions? A I'm sure I did. I don't recall what I had to say about it. Q Did any one cf these four organizations publish a journal or newsletter? A They didn't publish journals. They did have newsletters. Q Did each cf the four have a journal? A Nobody had a journal. Newsletters they may have had . I don't recall doing much with it. Q Would you have reviewed those newsletters? A Oh, I'd see them and pitch them. Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 S00-336-6646 410-684-2550 WATER PCB-SD0000063026 54, o - / Q. But you would look at them? A Yes, I'd look at them. ' 2 Was participation in these organizations a way of keeping up with developments in the field of industrial medicine ? D A Well, the specific field, for example, the specific field of petroleum chemicals, that American a Petroleum Institute was a good source of information a.nc a the same thing with the Agricultural Chemical 10. Manufacturers Association. 11 Q What else did you do to keep up in the field of 12 industrial medicine? 13 A Well, we subscribed to the leading journals in the English language. There are about three in the Unitec States and two in England and I read those. And Wheeler VO and Garrett kept up with the industrial hygiene part, and ^ ** they talked to me about anything that was relevant to - might be relevant to us, to Monsanto as a company. i G Q Did you attend any seminars, apart from those given by the four organizations you've just outlined? A Oh, I'm sure there have been isolated seminars, but I don't recall the names or the dates at the present Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 800-336-O646 410-684-2350 WATER_PCB-SD0000063027 348 time.. Q Did World War II have an impact on "the field cf industr:Lai medicine? A Yes, a pretty big one. Q Would you describe that, please. A Weil, all the defense plants seemed to have all the money in the world, and they were able to do things that the private employers did not seem to find money for. So there also were problems that occurred at the ammunition plants that made it a part that people -- individual monitoring of workers at these various chemical warfare plants . Q I'd like to go back through each of those items. You say that the defense plants had ail the money in the world. What did they use that money to do in regard t:o industrial medicine? A Oh, they hired more doctors who were happy to do work in the defense plants, rather than go into the service . They paid much more attention to the industrial. hygiene,, which was just a struggling offshoot of occupational medicine before World War II. And I think they just gave added impetus to the individual monitoring Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 800-336-6W6 410-684-2550 WATER PCB-SD0000063028 349 of the workers' environment as well as their biological fluids. ` Q Did you keep abreast of the information that was developed as a result of those World War II experiences? A Abreast during that time or afterwards or - Q after. A Both during and after or either during and I beg your pardon? Q What about during World War II? A Not too much. We had a couple of seminars in the chemical warfare service. We had more than a couple. Quite a few in the four.years I was with them, and the last part of the war I was associated with a research group at Edgewood Arsenal and I think I kept abreast pretty well then. Following, the amount of papers dropped off a great deal -- the amount of publications dropped off quite a bit when the doctors left the service or left the defense plants. Q Was the learning from that experience applied at chemical companies after the war? A I think so. Not that they learned anything from the Army, but there was an impetus towards occupational Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 800-336-6646 410-684-2550 WATER_PCB-SD0000063029 350 medicine along various fronts, especially the examination part and in the atmospheric sampling during the war, and I think that was applied to piecetime activities. Q Did you apply those steps at Monsanto? A Yes, we hired one of the Army's industrial hvgienists. That's where we got Wheeler. I'd say we were in the forefront of occupational medicine. We were as far up to scratch as defense industries were. Q Did you undertake atmospheric sampling? A ` When we got Wheeler, we did. Q When was that? A . '47, I think; '46 or '47. Q To your knowledge, was atmospheric sampling undertaken at the Texas City plant? A Yes, sir, they were -- not sir. We did, at Texas City, evaluations fairly frequently, not routine as we did later on when OSHA came in. Q In what year was OSHA enacted? In what year was OSHA passed? A ' 7 3 or '74. Q And what atmospheric sampling did you do at the Texas City plant before OSHA came into place? Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. .Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 300-336-6646 410-684-2550 WATER_PCB-SD0000063030 54225 . C 351 A Occasional benzenes. We did some on styrene. 2 We did some on cyanide. Q On anything else? 4 A I beg your pardon? Q On anything else? 5 A I don't think so. n Q How did you conduct -- did you personally conduct n atmospheric sampling at the Texas City plant? G A No. Wheeler cr Garrett did. I'm not an 10 industrial hygienist. 11 : Q Did you monitor the results? 12 1 13 14 A Yes. Q And against what standard did you measure the results for each of the chemicals that you've mentioned? A Well, there were standards approved by the 1 5 American Council of Government Industrial Hygienists. This was a self-appointed group composed of federal, state 18 and city industrial hygienists and academic people from 1 9 industry were excluded. These people took it upon 20 themselves to develop the standards and when OSHA came 21 along, they adopted very many of the standards of this 22 group. Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. ll Nationwide Coverage il 202-347-3700 800-336-6646 410-684-2550 WATER PCB-SD0000063031 352 Q Was there at any time between 19 -- strike that. ` Approximately when did the monitoring that - the sampling that you have described begin at Texas City? A '60s, I think. I'm picking that date pretty much out of the air. I'm not certain of the time. Q bet me go back for a minute, Dr. Kelly. You stated that atmospheric sampling was one of the items that came about during World War II; is that correct? A That's correct. Q Did Monsanto use it at any time approximate to World War II? A When you say "approximate," is that before World War II? Q Let's just say after World War II. A We used it in isolated cases where there would be a question of a possible problem at a specific location, and we'd want to know what the level of any particular contaminant was at that particular plant at that particular department or over that pump. Q And what you've just described, its sporadic use, is what was the case at the Texas City plant? Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 800-336-tx>46 410-684-2550 WATER PCB-SD0000063032 I I 353 A- Yes, it wasn't routine. We didn't run it every I week or every six months or so as we did later -- as was j done later. In '75 we had more industrial hygienists and j il :i OSHA had definite directives as to how often you should .iii ,i test areas. i J Q Did there come any time after World War II but i before 1975 when Monsanto conducted atmospheric sampling more routinely at the Texas City plant? A I don't think so. No, we did not do the routine j testing until the OSHA requirements were concerned. Q Could you describe what atmospheric sampling 1 1 entailed, please. A Sure. You take a pump and a measured collection vessel and you pump air through it, and there you have a collective medium and you have a pump calibrated so that you pump a liter of air through there in a certain amount of minutes, so that gives you how much any particular compound is in the air during that minute. You look at the -- if there's 15 liters of air and you have 2 milligrams of something in there and you calculate how much you have in the breathing atmosphere all day. Q Atmospheric sampling tests worker exposure i Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 800-336-6646 410-684-2550 WATER_PCB-SD0000063033 254 through inhalation; is that correct? A That's correct. * Q Does it test worker exposure through any other route? A No. Q Was there any effort -- strike that. Was there any technique arising out of World War II that could be usee to test worker exposure through any route other than inhalation? A It might very well have been. I don't recall off the top of my head right now. Q Were you engaged in any such activity at the Texas City plant? A I personally or the medical department? Q The medical department. A Well, we were not -- we weren't developing methods. We were using some -- doing some sampling. Q During what years were you doing that sampling? A '50s and '50s. Q And that sampling was designed to determine wha t ? A What we had in the workplace, what particular Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 S00-336-6646 410-684-2530 WATER_PCB-SD0000063034 contaminants were in the workplace that we considered cf 2 toxic nature. Q And they would reveal worker exposure through a route other than inhalation? A Well, no, we did get -- we didn't get an exposure bv oral exposure. We didn't have people swallowing the Q You did or did not? A Did not. We did have skin contact, but you could tell that by looking. You didn't need to have any sophisticated instrument to say whether you got something or. your hands or not. And inhalation was the one we really had to measure the material the person was breathing and you did that by either a personal monitor stuck on the man's coveralls or general area monitoring. (Pause.) BY MS. SCHIFFER: * 0 Did Monsanto undertake during the period that you just described which was -- strike that. From the period right after World War II, did Monsanto undertake any studies to determine worker exposure by ingestion, to determine the effects of worker to Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 800-336-oo46 410-684-2530 WATER PCB-SD0000063035 54225 . - jb i i ! exposure of chemicals by ingestion? -L\. A Well, one cf "he basic methods of determining 3 che toxicity cf a product is by oral ingestion so when we 4 aid any testing, we always started off with the oral doses and we certainly didn't do any testing on the worker. 5 g What did you do testing on, did you do testing on animals? 5 A Animais. 9 Q Did you do any testing -- this is cn the pericc 10 n 1 12 ; 13 1 right after World War II -- related to ingestion of the chemicals that were either produced or used at Texas City? A We didn't have a great many chemicals down in Texas City. Toxicity was done on a large number of them. 14 We knew what the toxicity of hydrogen cyanide was. We 15 knew what the toxicity cf styrene was. We knew what the 15 toxicity cf vinyl chloride monomer was, so there wasn't an awful lot of information needed. Besides, we had to 18 19 consider the exposure. Texas City is like an oil refinery. The plant 20 is like an oil refinery where the material is supposed to 21 . 22 : be within the kettles, within the pipes and within the pumps and there could be failures of pumps or leaks in Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 800-336-6646 410-684-2550 WATER PCB-SD0000063036 pumps that could occur, and you'd have an exposure that way. There'd be exposure in cleaning out various apparatus. There'd be exposure in filling tank cars, but the exposure was relatively limited at Texas City. It's an outside plant just with all the material inside pipes. Q Did you consider exposure through groundwater as one of the possible routes of exposure? A What? Q Did you consider exposure through groundwater as one of the possible routes of exposure? A To who? Q Did you limit your exposure studies to exposure to workers? A Yes, I'd say, by and large. Remember, groundwater is not like an underground river. It's just moist sand. Q At the Texas City plant, the groundwater was just moist sand; is that correct? A Well, it all depends. There were aquifers which might be 200 feet deep or 2000 feet deep. Q At Texas City, is that where the groundwater was -- were you aware where the groundwater was at Texas Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Mationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 800-336-6646 410-6S4-2550 WATER PCB-SD0000063037 358 City? " A Well, I know that some places it was pretty deep, that they had deep well injections. Q Are there places at Texas City where the groundwater was in the surface sand as you just described it? A At what? Q Are there places at Texas Citywhere the groundwater was in the sands as you just described it? A Yes. Groundwater, it's not a puddle on top of soil. It's down beneath the soil. It varies at different geological strata. Q Are there places in Texas City where the groundwater is quite close to the surface? A I think so. Q Did you make any examination cfthe possibility of worker exposure to the chemicals you've described through the groundwater at Texas City? A No, we didn't even know that there was any in the groundwater. We had this material that we collected in sewers and we sent to landfills. We did not expect the landfill, which was made of a particular clay in Texas at Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 S00-336-6646 410-684-2530 WATER PCB-SD0000063038 559 chat time -- well, still is -- that was believed impervious to leaking cr leaching of any of the maceriai in the landfill. Q Is it your area of expertise hydrogeology, Dr. Kelly? A It certainly is not. Q Were you involved in the hydrogeological issues ac the Texas City plane? A No, sir -- I mean, I didn't hear any hydrogeological -- I'm not an expert at all in water contamination. Q But it wasn't one of the areas -- the routes of worker exposure that you were concerned about, that there might be exposure chrough the groundwater at Texas City; is that correct? A That's correct. Q The oniy routes that you looked atwere worker exposure through inhalation and worker exposure by skin contact? A Yes, I would say that's correct, yes. 2 And you were not concerned abcut worker exposure through ingestion; is that correct? Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 S00-336-6646 410-684-2350 WATER_PCB-SD0000063039 360 A' That's correct. 2 .And this is at the Texas City piantnow? A That's correct. Q Dr. Kelly, I believe you testified that the second industrial medicine component to come out of World War II was individual monitoring of workers? A That's correct. Q Did Monsanto begin touse individual monitoring of workers shortly after World War II? A Yes. In some cases, not every worker didn't have a monitor on them. Q What was the means of individual monitoring that Monsanto used? A What was the means? You said what was the method? Q What was the method of individual monitoring that Monsanto used? A Well, you put a little motor on a fellow and drew this air through a bottle or container that had a solvent in it, and you measured how much you drew in arm you analyzed how much you got of anything in there besides the solvent you put in as the starter. Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 S00-336-6646 410-684-2350 WATER_PCB-SD0000063040 J01 Q- And when did Mor.sant: begin to use that method of individual monitoring at the Texas City plant? A 1 don't remember. Q Would it have been under your supervision? A Well, we recommended the plant safety people would carry out the details of it. We didn't have a member of our medical department down there seeing that thev ran them, the pump, okay. We instructed them how to use it a.nc told them what kino to buy and let them run it IC Q Would it have been the 1940s that that was firs: 11 run at the Texas City plant? A I don't remember.. 2 Q Would it have been done in the 1950s? A I'm sure it was being done in the 1950s. Q It maybe was done earlier than the 1950s? A It could . Q Would the results of individual monitoring have been reported to you? A Not uniformly, not in all cases, but I think we would use the individual monitoring because we had a particular problem or a particular request by employees o: a carticular comoiaint about exDOSure that I would hear Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationu'we Qn eraee 202-347-7-00 s()0-336-no4o 410-684-2350 WATER PCB-SD0000063041 o. 252 the results of vna: happened after the discussion with the emoiovees or the union or sometning like mat.' 4 ai Were tr.e workers at Texas Zitv unionized? 4 A I think they were. 5 3 Do you know what the union was? 5 A No, I don't. I'm not certain thev were unionized, but I talked to groups of them, and I thought 5 they we::e unionized, but I don't know. ~'m not certain. 9 I don't know wr.icr. one it was . -- 'oJ, '<w-L\ Do you know what the time frame would be? i: a No, I don't. 12 Q Do .you remember any specific problems at the 13 Texas 2:.ty plant that would have led to the individual 14 monitor:_ng vou described? 15 A I don't remember. I can't answer that 15 questio::. I don't remember it. a' -. r^' Would there have been notes or records kept of _ c the mon:storing? 13 A I'm sure they were kept. How long they vers 20 kept is a different story. We had a records retention 21 oroaram,, which was reaiiv a records disposal program, and 22 after every five years, you were supposed to go out ' ) Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coveraee t NX)-3?6*bt>4b 4 3 0-6A4-25t0 WATER_PCB-SD0000063042 through your files anc cirri', che stuff that was not relevant anymore. " Q Would you have pitched the results rf the individual monitoring program? A I think so because the plant is changing ail the time and what was relevant at one time wouldn't be relevant if we had improved the ventilation or substituted different feedstock or were in general ventilation or spot ventilation. Q Would you nave pitched the results cf the atmospheric sampling that you described before? A I think so, for the same reasons. Q Do you recall whether there was any time during your stay at Monsanto that the atmospheric sampling results at the Texas City plant exceeded the standards set by the American Council cf - A Government Industrial Hygiene. Q -- Government Industrial Hygiene? A It may be or. spot cases. I don't recall any SDecifleally, but if you take a sample at 10:00 in the morning, you take another sample at 3:00 in the afternoon, one cf those may be higher than the maximum allowable Ace-Federal Reporters, I.\c Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 s00-336-t)t>46 410-n84-2550 WATER_PCB-SD0000063043 -01 Generation, but on a time weighted basis, the average id come down to an aoceotaoie level , 1 Was there any time when Monsanto exceeded the cified standard over a period that you thought required receive action? A There may have been. I don't recall specifics. Q Would you have kept written records of that? A Mow or then? 2 Contemporaneous written records? A I don't know how long we kept them. I don't w if they are now. I left 18 years ago. 2 Dr. Kelly, would you, at the time cf any suer, ivity, have kept a written record or have made a ttan record? Kept it in St. Louis? I don't think so. would stay in the plant file in Texas. A written record would have been made; is Yes, somebody wrote it down. And it would have been kept for some oerioo of 0/ Yes . Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. Yatiomnde Coveraee 202-34/ -3/ 00 M.H)-?3f'oo46 410-684-2550 WATER_PCB-SD0000063044 J.u 2 And to your knowledge, would it then have deer, pitc.nec pursuant to the document disposal policy that yc - us t assented? A Yes . Q So to your knowledge, records of any such exceedances from the 1940s and 1950s and 1960s would no longer exist; is that correct? A 1 don't know whether they exist or not. 1 haven't seen any. 2 3ut they would have been made at the time? A Yes . 2 You've described individual monitoring activity. What was the standard against which that individual monitoring would have beer, measured, starting in the 1940s? A Well, the individual monitoring, the personal monitoring shows what the man is breathing for X period ' p hours during a day so that's applied, I guess, to the standard of American government industrial group, industrial hygiene group. You can arrive at it two ways One is by the general atmospheric sampling and the ether is by the individual monitoring sampling. Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-34"-3C00 s'G0-336-ot>46 410-584-2330 WATER_PCB-SD0000063045 E -t Z - C . w :0D Q Would contemporaneous recorcs nave been made tv Monsanto he individual monocrine measures? A :'es . Q Where would those records have been kept? A At Texas City. Q And would those records have been subject to the same document disposal policy that you described? 3 A. It ail depends on where they ended up. If they Q ended up in a medical file, they would have stayed there. 1C If they ended up in a file related to a particular 11 problem, they would have been pitched. We kept our j 0 medical reports, such as an X-ray report, forever, and it ail depends on where that record was kept. If it was kept in the industrial hygiene part of the Texas City group, why, it could suffer to be discarded after X number of -/ears . Q And you don't know which of those two categories 13 those records fell into? ' Q A No, I don't. o Q Do you recall any time when the individual z 1 monitoring results exceeded the standards of the American Z Z uounci.: Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 212*34/-3700 SQ0-33o-r4o 410-t>A4-2550 WATER_PCB-SD0000063046 A I don't remember any specific time, and I fee- sure that at rimes we did, because remember, when we were looking for trouble spots, we were looking where there were complaints of irritation, eye irritation, nose ' irritation, chest irritation. So when we were taking this monitoring, we were looking at the worst case scenario and we may very well have had higher levels than we wanted. Q Do you recall any instances when, starting in the 1940s, when Monsanto would have taken any corrective action at the Texas City plant because of individual monitoring that exceeded the American Council standards? A I don't recall the specific details, but after all, we were taking the samples to find out what we had and if we had too much, we would take corrective measures, which would usually be ventilation or spot ventilation. Q Are there any other corrective measures that would have been entailed? A Personal protection all the way from gas mask type units to air respirators and conceivably some engineering changes. Q Are there any ether kinds of corrective measures that Monsanto would have taken? Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 800-336-O646 410-684-2330 WATER PCB-SD0000063047 358 A. I don't tnink 23. 2 .And again, we're talking for the tine period from. the 1940s on up; is that correct? A Well, the middle '40s on up because : don't know wnac was happening in the '40s and I don't know when the Texas City plant was not. I thought it was built sometime during the time I was in the service. 1 I believe it was built in 1943. A Oh, no, it was going during the war because Texas City, the styrene was used for artificial rubber. Q Dr. Kelly, you've testified that in aocrcximatelv 1975, when OSHA came into place, that Monsanto increased its activity of worker monitoring. I'd like to take a step back and ask you whether you participated in any way in the development of or lobbying for cr against the passage of OSHA? A No, 1 did not. Q Did you provide any information to anyone at Monsanto who did participate in that activity? A I don't know if anybody at Monsanto lobbied for cr against EPA regulations but I did not provide any information for or against anybody at Monsanto. Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 N'00-336*oo4t> 410-684-2550 WATER PCB-SD0000063048 Q- For or against, any lobbying activity they nay have undertaken? A That's correct. Q Do you recall whether anybody askea you about anv information about worker safety standards at a time that would have related to the passage of OSHA? A I don't recall. Q You don't recalldeveloping any information for anybody at Monsanto related to worker safety? A That's correct. C Were you in anyway involved in therevel comer, t of information or standards for reauiations that implemented OSHA? A Mo, I was not. Q How did you first learn about OSHA? A I guess I read it in the Federal Digest or in The New York Times or someplace. Q Do you remember when that was, approximately? A Weil, first c: ail, there was the proposed regulations and there were hearings that were the acopt: of the regulations. There was an effective date of whe: the regulations had to be followed, and I think that wh: Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 252-347-3700 >00-33o-ot>4b 410-684-2550 WATER_PCB-SD0000063049 thing wen: from about '"2 until after '"'4 when I retiree. I retiree in '"'4. And I don't know now long it was before one regulations were passed and the standards were set, now industry should abide by such regulations. I think that was either in '24 or right after '~4. Q Did anyone at Monsanto ask you your opinion about what the standards should be? A No, ma'am. Q Did you have any responsibility for implementing 2SHA standards at Monsanto? A I don't know if those standards had to be 1 z implemented by the time I left. Q Did the state of Texas have any worker safety standards? A I'm sure they aid. Q were you aware of those standards, if they existed ? 3 A I personally was not -- Sarrett lived in Texas G and worked at the plant and the safety department under Sorrel, also had quite a bit of contact with the state safety regulations. Safety was not part of the medical oepartment's responsibility. I mean by that, safety, we Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. Nationwide Coveraee 202-347*3700 ^S00-33o*ot>46 4l0-to84-2T?0 WATER_PCB-SD0000063050 weren't responsible for fires or explosions or sticking your hand into a saw, but we were respor.siole for rreventinc cuimonarv irritation, various svstemic poisoning. That would be our responsibility. Q Would you be responsible for being aware of any state standards related to those aspects, the aspects that you've just described? A We really let the plant worry about that. I don't think I was in a position to evaluate the safety standards of the 20 or 25 different states in which we operated. Q Would you have been available for questions about application of any of those standards? A Yes, I'm sure I would have been. Q Do you have any specific recollection of people asking you questions about the application of those standards in Texas? A No, I don't . Q Dr. Kelly, did you at any time undertake - strike that. Did you at any time establish a program of medical examinations of employees at the Texas City plant? Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. Nationwide Coverage :0:-347-?700 M)0-336-or>4e> 410-684-2350 . WATER PCB-SD0000063051 A- Yss . An d vh e n wa s mat? When I came tack from the service So aDorcximateiv a___ A t d . How long did that program last? Until '"4 that I know of. MS . ^t' s aei ' ft v- a r*' minu-s. (Discussion cff the record.) 3Y MS. 5CHIFFER: Q What was the purpose of those examinations that you set up? A What was the purpose of what? * Of these examinations, of that examination program. A To find out A, if there were any incipient nonoccupational illness or any signs of any occupational illness. 0 And do you recall whether you determined that there was any occupational illness among the Texas City plant workers at any time from 1946 to 1974? Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. \ationwide Coverage 400-336-ob4t> 410-6H4-:??0 WATER PCB-SD0000063052 1,J A I don't think we had any. Certainly I tor.'t think we had any that we paid a compensation or.. : received reports from Liberty Mutual on any compensifcle claims that were filed and were paid by Liberty Mutual. Chev sent me quarterly reports of ail the plants. And to one best of my recollection, we did not have any significant number in Texas City. Obviously, there were dermatitis cases and stuff like that. 3ut we didn't have any systemic illness like - we didn't ..ave any leukemias that showed up during my time there. Some showed up after I left that had worked there before 1974. Somewhat -- I didn't mean some. I don't know cf any other specific ones Q Wa s the focus of you any condition that had to be c iv worxers' ccmpensation? A Was the focus of -- Q Wa s the focus of you sxaminaticr. o: employees to determine whether there was iv injury that had to ce impensated by workers' compensation? A Oh, no, the focus of the examination was to find :t if thev were aettina anv illness from their 'ob and if Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. Nationwide Cov erage -02-34/ -3700 s00-336-oo4o 410-684-2^50 WATER PCB-SD0000063053 5"4 we could stop it, we'd stop it. it wasn't a question of paying the compensation to the person. it was a small amount of any expense. So that wasn't the focus. The focus was let's be sure that we don't have a rash of these in any particular department. Q In addition to the leukemia that you just described, was there any other occupational condition that vcu observed at Texas City at any time between 1946 and U w / *t A I'm sure there were dermatitis cases. I mean, there's no question about that. Other than that, I don't recall occupational conditions at Texas City. We didn't have too many of them. 0 So the only ones you recall are the leukemia art one dermatitis that you've described? A That's correct. Q Did you find any nonoccupational conditions that you paid attention to in the course of those examinations? A Oh, sure. You get people with high blood pressure, high cholesterol, gout, diabetes. You get a host of illnesses that you take -- if you take 100 people walking down Broadway, you'll find, if they're 50 years Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coveraee 202-347-3700 >00-336-oo4o 410-684-2550 WATER_PCB-SD0000063054 old, you'll find 100 different conditions. So we had a bunch of those. ' 2 How did you determine whether a condition was occupational or nonoccupational? A If there are other people -- first of ail, if t.ne condition has not been reported in a higher percentage of similar workers, one assumes it's not due to their working environment. If it is a condition that occurs with secretaries, lawyers, doctors as well as chemical plant operators, you could also assume that the cause of the factor is something different than the work environment. But it's a pretty tough call to decide whether a condition is occupational or nonoccupationa1. If a person has cancer of the lung and he smokes, to decide whether cr not his cancer is cue to cigarette smoking or inhaling SO_ for a long period of time, that's a tough call to make. Q How did you make those decisions at Monsanto? A How did you make it? You have to use a certain amount of clinical judgment. You have to figure what the percentage of people are who have 50 pack-years of cigarette smoking and whether or not if this is the first person in the department who ever had lung cancer and Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 232-34T-3700 800-3364x>4f> 410-OM-2550 WATER_PCB-SD0000063055 vou' ve- cot other ceocie ccing the same work that don't have lung cancer and it's not been reported in the literature and similar industries to ours, well, then you make a calculated clinical decision and say 1 think this us probably not occupational in character. Q Was that decision in your sole discretion at .Monsanto ? A Was ut wnat? Q Were the decisions about whether an illness or injury or condition was occupational or nonoccupational a decision in your sole discretion? A No, because if the employee did not agree with it, he would take himself down to the compensation board and they would have their experts examine him. We also would have -- sometimes liberty Mutual would make -- or 1 mean the insurance carrier would give us their input on whether or not this was an occupational condition or not. Q Was there any ether person at Monsanto that would be involved in that decision besides you? A Oh, sure, the plant doctor. M.avce he's the fellow who saw them first. Q Anybody else? Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. 202-347-3"10 Nationwide Coveraee M)0-336-6t*46 4 i 0-684-2350 WATER PCB-SD0000063056 No . 1 Nobody else in management? ` A No. Z It was viewed as a solely medical decision? A I beg your pardon? Q It was viewed as solely a medical decision? A That's correct. 2 Would you be involved in each of the decisions that were made about whether a condition was occupational or nonoccupationai? A No. I think it would only be if there was a ronsiderable difference of opinion. Most of them are solved at the plant level and the plant physician would be talking to the man, talking to the man's doctor and they would arrive at a decision as to what the cause was. 1 If there was a difference of opinion, that would be a difference between whom and whom? A. Between the emciovee and the Monsanto riant pnvsician. 1 And then you would come to be involved in that decision? .A That's correct. Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. :02-?47-'70n Nationwide Coverage AX)-336-oo4o 41U-&S4-2330 WATER PCB-SD0000063057 54225 . 2 'b Q` And you and che people you've described but '.orcdy else? "* Th.5. t ' S CO3T2T0C w . Q Dr. Kelly, was there ever a time during your :er.ure at Monsanto that you requested that animal studies ;e made of a certain chemical? A Yes. D And what were thosetimes? A An awful lot of times from 1947 or '48 to 1974 Q Could you specify for me what each cf those ss were . JL z A We may have 50 of them. Q What would be the conditions under which you .d determine that animal studies should be made cf a o.-.emica_ . A One, if there were no toxicity information available, if it was a compound that ohere was considerable exposure to our workers, if it was a compound chat we needed to give adequate information to our customers to protect their workers and if it were going co be a food additive or if it were going to be an agricultural chemical that came under the purview of the Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 >00-336-bb46 410-684-2530 WATER_PCB-SD0000063058 4225.0 ' ni 379 1 . U.S. government. There were any number of conditions like that. Q 2id you undertake those studies yourself? 4 A No. We used either academic laboratories or 1 commercial laboratories. 6 Q In each instance, you used an outside i 1 laboratory? 1~ 3 A I beg your pardon? Q Q In each instance, you used an outside 10 laboratory? n A That's correct, until 1975 when we had our own 12 . 13 laboratory functioning, but I was gone. And then we started planning and building a laboratory in '74, and I 1 4 think it went on stream in '"5 when we had our own - c laboratory. 1 5 Q And where would the results -- who would have =e ,, / up the study design for those studies? 13 A It varies if there are any government '-c Q-/ connections, but it would be cur toxicologist, the V.O 20 1 22 i laboratory director that we were -- director of the laboratory we were going to use and the government agency. We were going to submit the reports to the Focc Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202*34 7-3700 600-336-664o 410-684-2550 WATER_PCB-SD0000063059 280 and Drug, Agriculture Department or the ether group. 3 Who was your toxicologist? A It varied. First it was Dr. Hunt and then it was Dr. Levinskas and we had a Dr. Jacobson -- John, J-o-h-n, Johannscr., and I think we had a fourth toxicologist in there. Q Do you know their approximate years? A Sure. Hunt came in the early '60s, I believe. Levinskas came in '"1 or '72 and the others, two came sometime between mid-'60 and early '70s. Q Did you have any toxicologists before the early 1960s? _ A No, we did not. 3 .Ana for studies that were not done as part of a submission to the government, who established the study design? A I would say I was the ultimate one, and we had Hunt and he established it was. We had a toxicologist and then we had to rely a great deal on the director of the laboratory and his ideas. Q Do you recall getting back any results that showed toxicity for -- showed study results for Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. Nationwide Coverage 800-336-6t>4b 410-684-2530 WATER_PCB-SD0000063060 -ai acrylonitrile ? A No. :eneve mere was some matenau in literature already and also there was a cooperative croup that had a study of acrylonitrile, I believe spearheaded by Dow, that ran acrylonitrile studies. Q Was Monsanto a part of that cooperative group? A I'm sure we chipped in. 2 And the results would be available to Monsanto? A Yes . Q Do you have any idea when that set of studies or study was done? A I think late '60s or early '70s, but there may have been -- that's when the long-term studies were. There may have been some acute studies 30 or 90 days rather than cwo-year studies that were done earlier. I thought than was done in the '60s or something like that. Q Were there any studies done ofacrylonitrile before the 1960s? A No, I'm not even sure the date of that, whether that '50 date is correct. 1 And you were aware of the outcome of those studies ? Ace-Federal Reporters, Iac. Nationwide Cov erage 202-347-3700 ,>00-336-6o4o 410-684-2330 WATER PCB-SD0000063061 A Yes . Q And what aid they snow? ` A In all these studies, you look for A, low effect level; 3, a high effect; level and C, you try to get a level in between. So you always get some effect because vou're giving enough of the chemical to get an effect, ana what you do it all depends on the purpose of the study. If vou're doing it for a -- where there's a possibility of peocie -- of it getting into the food chain or into the fcou packaging, you have to analyze what the extraction cacabiiity is. And you go down to the government with ycur extraction data and your toxicity and say here's what we got, what do you think of it? 2 Were there any similar studies for styrene? Were there any studies for styrene? A There were acute studies by Dow, inhalation studies by Dow. I guess that was back in the '50s. There were no two-year studies as they were proposed and carried out, I believe, on acrylonitrile. Q And you were aware cf the results of those styrene studies? A Yes . Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage -02-34 / - a 100 S00-336-o646 410-684-2550 WATER_PCB-SD0000063062 4 l. J0J Q How about for styrene tars? A Mo. Styrene tars were not an item Of commerce. 2 You only undertook these studies for something that would become an item of commerce? A Yes . 2 Would you have undertaken any studies regarding wastes ? a A If we thought the waste was going to be in a cosition where it would come in contact with humans, we 10 would have. 11 Q Do you recall any waste for which you undertook 12 such studies? 13 A I beg your pardon? - '1 5 Do you recall any wastes for which you undertook suer, studies? A No. We took acute studies in order for us to oe secure in advising adequate safe handling for the 13 transportation and disposal of, landfilling, shoveling it 1 Q into the landfill. 20 Q For what particular chemicals did you undertake ? 1 suer, studies? 9 z A Several of the tars. Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 800-336-664(5 410-684-2550 WATER PCB-SD0000063063 334 1 ! Q Which tars were those? 3 A Styrene and vinyl chloride tars. " - ''A< So you did undertake studies for styrene tars?' 4 ' A Yes . Q Do vou recall when those studies were '1 HV . undertaker. - ; A What? 3 rV\ Do vou recall when those studies were q . undertaken 10 i I| 11 ! 1 12 '! 13 1 14 i A No, I don't. Q Was it in the 1950s? A I don't think it was that early. rVD You think it was the 1960s? A I believe so, but I'm not certain. -5 -i And you would have seen the results of those i4_ Or studies ? 17 a>. o0 i '9 : A Yes . Q Do you recall who did them? A They were done by a small laboratory 20 organization in St. Louis. They were acute studies , 0 1 remember. Scientific Associates cr the Younger, 22 -o-u-n-g-e-r, Laboratories, both in St. Louis. Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 S00-336-6n4o 410-6)34-2550 WATER PCB-SD0000063064 may r.ave raken any studies far rarer. : exposure d S W S u. ' - A Mo, c.nev would not have. -r C Thev were limited to acute? - A Yes . 0 How about for cyanide? - n What about it? ; Were there any studies undertaken regarding i cyanide? : c A * Well, everycoav knew the toxicity cf cyanic 0 . 11 C*L\ And t.nat was true even in the lS4 0s? : i A Oh, sure. - - Dr. Kelly, you testified about bioaccumuiat i ? -- >-y c: mo 2TA mg, and you got it up to, in your example, aha: - : it could be bioaccumuiated 1 in 120 in fish. Could t y d be further bioaccumulation up to humans? A Well, it could but certainly it hasn't occurred because following the finding that PCBs were bioaccumuiated in marine animals and avian species and people were cr eating fish livers, they did not get very high levels cf the PCBs in their blood and fat. Q "Their" meaning human blood and fat? Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. 2'.'2-547-'7nn Nationwide Covernce -v '0-?36-or>46 410-6*4-2550 WATER PCB-SD0000063065 A Yes. 2 What about DDT ? ` A Probably about the sane. I'm r.ct -- that was ties out -- that vas baa and ve didn't make it, so : asr.'t - - I'm not toe familiar with the bicaccumuiaticn tudies with DDT. 2 So there can be bioaccumuiation that goes beyond ish and into humans; is that correct? A Oh, sure. Q And when you say that didn't occur, were you aiking about just a particular chemical? A I'm talking about PCBs and Idon't know what hey found in DDT in the human fat. Ijust don't know tat, out certainly we old not find levels -- you have to at an awful lot of fish with 12 parts per billion in the ever cf fish or the fat of fish to get started with ioaccumuiation into people. Q But the mechanism of bioaccumulation can occur p through the level of man; is that right? A Sure. 2 Did you undertake any worker studies at -- I'm cine to ask you for each of the off-sites in this case, Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. Nationwide Coverage 202-34/ -3/ 0(i s>00-33o-oo4o 4 iii-oe*4-2550 WATER PCB-SD0000063066 387 for South 20? A Old 2 -- ' 2 Undertake any of the kinds of worker monitoring or studies that you've described for workers at the Doutn 4.0 site? A No. We gave them the usual physical examination anc we gave them the run of the mill workers at Texas Tit'/, the wage roll employees. Q The wage roll employees at South 20? A Yes, sir, ail through the plant. We didn't give them any special examination program. Q Do you recall whether there was any indication of worker occupational conditions for workers at the South 20 site? A I don't recall hearing of any ill effects of one workers at the South 20 site. Q Did you do any worker monitoring or health examinations of workers at the North 80 site? A No, I did not. ' Q Did Monsanto? A No. Q And why was that? Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage ::C-347-3700 M)0-336-oo4o 410-684-2530 WATER PCB-SD0000063067 388 A Weil, we didn't think there was any particular exposure. Here we have a compound that is not carticulariy volatile at Texas City temperatures, and it's handled by dump trucks and we didn't see any particular exoosure to a compound of only moderate industrial toxicity. Q Was there a reason why you would have done examinations of workers at South 20 and not done them c: workers at North 80? A No, I didn't say we did them at South 20. I said we gave them the same examination we gave all the workers at the Texas City plant, whether they worked at the cyanide plant or South 20 or North 40. 2 5c you would have given those same examinations to workers at the North 80 site? A I beg your pardon? Q You would have given the same examination to workers at the North 80 site? A That's correct. Q What about workers at the MOTCO site? A That was not a Monsanto installation. We didn't do anything as far as examining the MOTCO people or MOTCC Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 800-336-bt>46 410-684-2550 WATER PCB-SD0000063068 389 people. Q Would you have informed anybody a: ore MOTCO site about results you would have learned about worker exposure at the Texas City plant site? A That's a hypothetical question because we didn't -- you're asking me if we found any, would I have told them? Q correct, A Weil, I would have to see what the difference in the exposure at the MOTCO site was in comparison to our workers at the Texas City plant. The toxicities, I said repeatedly through this deposition, varies with the inherent toxicity of the product itself plus the exposure level, and if we had nothing in our workers, I would go over to the MOTCO plant and say here we don't have any problems -with our people because I wouldn't know what their duties- at the MOTCO site were. Q What about at the3rio site? A Same answer. MS. 5CHIFFER: Could I have just one minute. (Pause.i MS. SCHIFFER: I don't have any further Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. Nationwide Coveraae 002-040-3000 800-336-or>4t> 410-684-2550 WATER PCB-SD0000063069 390 questions, Dr. Kelly. HR. MC DONNELL: I have some very sort follow-up on some of your discussion with Hr. Manta. ' EXAMINATION 3Y MR. MC CONNELL: Q Dr. Kelly, are you a qualified geologist? A I am not, qualified or unqualified. No part geologist. 2 You're not an expert in that area? A ' Not in the least. Q Did you personally ever investigate the soil types at the North 80 site? A No, I did not. 2 At South 20? A No, I did not. 2 At MOTCC? A No, sir. 2 Brio? A No. 2 At the Texas City plant? A No, sir. 2 You have no firsthand knowledge from your own Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 ^00-336-6646 410-684-2330 WATER_PCB-SD0000063070 ;b ' a investigation regarding tne so:, conditions an any tnose sites -> A That's correct. Q And anything you know on that subject is secondhand ? A Oh, secondhand. That's where most information comes from. 2 3ut anything you know about the soil at tncse sites is something you heard from somebody else? A That's correct. Q Did you personally, Dr. Kelly, ever investigate i / the groundwater conditions at the North 80 site? A No, I did not. 2 South 20? A No, sir. Q MOTCO? A No, sir. Q 3rio? A No, sir. a Texas City plant? A No, sir. /L L Q You have no firsthand knowledge from your own Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 202-347-3700 Nationwide Coverage *00-336-6046 H0-684-2350 WATER PCB-SD0000063071 392 investigation about the groundwater conditions at any of those sites? ` A No, I do not have any such information. MR. MC CONNELL: No further questions at this time. Thank you, Dr. Kelly. MR. 3RAY: Nothing. Let's go off the record. (Discussion off the record.) iRecess. , ' MR. BRAY: I have no questions. Designate the deposition confidential and just note that for any readers of the transcript, we are set to commence video deposition starting Tuesday morning, February 2 at 10:00 of Dr. Kelly. As of this moment, it is still scheduled to occur at Potter, Anderson & Ccrroon in Wilmington. Just leave it at that. MR. MC CONNELL: Just for the record - MR. BRAY: We can discuss among ourselves anything about relocating it. MR. MC CONNELL: We can discuss the relocation. One thing I would like to make clear is we've concluded our discovery deposition. The video deposition, of course, Jack is the one that you've noticed. It's Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 S00-336-6o46 410-684-2530 WATER PCB-SD0000063072 393 Monsanto's deposition. MR. MANTA: -And if we do -- I dor.'o'know if this has to he on the record -- if it is moved to Washington I would request that it begin at 10:30 rather than at 13:00. That's the only request I'd make. MR. SRAY: That would seem to be acceptable. I mean, I would imagine we can still complete the thing or. time out let's just make it clear for readers who are net here, as they read the end of the transcript, at the moment it is still set for 10:00 a.m. Tuesday, February 1 in Wilmington at Potter, Anderson & Corroon, and in the event that there were to be a change, somehow everyone would be notified, and if not notified, it will be there. MR. MC CONNELL: Fine. 'Whereupon, at 4:22 p.m., the deposition was concluded.' R. EMMET KELLY Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage -j:-347-?700 S00-336-6M6 410-^-S4-2550 WATER PCB-SD0000063073 [T FI CATE OF NOTARY PUBLIC & REPORTER 394 the officer before whom the foregoing deposition was taken, do hereby certify that the witness whose testimony appears in the foregoing deposition was duly sworn; that the testimony of said witness was taken in shorthand and thereafter reduced to typewriting by me or under my direction; that said deposition is a true record of the testimony given by said witness; that I am neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the parties to the action in which this deposition was taken; and, further, that I am not a relative or employee of any attorney or counsel employed by the parties hereto, nor financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of this action. Notary Public in and for the District of Columbia My Commission Expires SEPTEMBER 30, 1997 WATER PCB-SD0000063074 TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS - IN THE SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF DELAWARE IN AND FOR NEW CASTLE COUNTY MONSANTO COMPANY, Plaintiff, AETNA CASUALTY & SURETY COMPANY, - al. , Defendants. Civil Action Number 88C-JA-118-1-CV NON-ARBITRATION CASE KELLY DEPOSITION EXHIBITS PROTECTED MATERIAL: MONSANTO INSURANCE COVERAGE LITIGATION Washington, D. C. Thursday, February 4, 1993 ACE - FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC. Stenorype Reporters 1120 G Street, NW Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 347-3700 NATIONWIDE COVERAGE 800-336-6646 WATER PCB-SD0000063075