Document N2BdRwj0Bzkb0kyByDp18Q41y

i IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERI DISTRICT OP WEST VIRGINIA CHARLESTON, WEST VIRGINIA & JAMES M. ADKINS, Administrator -of the Estate of Ralph E. Adkins, Deceased, et al, Plaintiffs, vs. MONSANTO COMPANY, a Delaware Corporation, Defendant. ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) Deposition of HENRY J. HORNER taken on behalf of the plaintiffs. Reporter: M. Joy Springer 4 J a m e s M ay R e p o r tin g S e r v ic e (1 C E R T I F I E D S H O R T H A N D R E P O R T E R S R.R. 2 - BOX 65 EDWARDSV1LLE, ILLIN O IS 62025 *s#l821 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF WEST VIRGINIA CHARLESTON, WEST VIRGINIA 3 4 JAMES M. ADKINS j Administrator of the Estate of Ralph E. Adkins, 5 Deceased, et al, 6 Plaintiffs, 7 VS . 8 MONSANTO COMPANY, a Delaware Corporation, 9 Defendant. 10 11 ). ) ) ) ) ) ) No. 61-2098 ) ) ) ) ) 12 APPEARANCES: 13 Messrs. Calwell. McCormick & Peyton, by W. Stuart Calwell, Jr., Esc., For the Plaintiffs; U Messrs. Bowles, MeDavid, Graff & Love, 15 by Ms. Deborah A. Sink, Thomas E. Scarr, Esq., 1 Charles M. Love, III, Esc., For the Defendant. 17 18 19 IT IS STIPULATED AND AGREED by and between 20 counsel for the plaintiffs and counsel for the defendant 21 that the deposition of HENRY J. HORNER may be taken pursuant 22 to Rule 26(a) of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, on 23 behalf of the plaintiffs, on July 8,_1933, at the Radisson 24 Hotel, Room. 215, 9th Street and Convention Plaza, St. Louis, 25 Missouri, before M. JOY SPRINGER, a Notary Public within and * JA M ES MAY R E P O R TIN G SER VIC E 1 1 1 for the County of Madison, State of Illinois; that the 2 issuance of notice and dedimus is waived, and that this 3 deposition nay be taken with the sane force and effect as 4 if all Federal rules and statutory requirements had beer, 5 complied with. 6 IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED that 7 any and all objections to all or any part of this deposi 8 tion except objections as to form of the questions asked 9 or answers given, are hereby reserved and may be raised or 10 the trial of this cause; and that the signature of the 11 deponent is not waived. 12 * # * # * # # # # # 13 14 15 HENRY J. HORNER 16 produced, sworn and examined on behalf of the plaintiffs, 17 deposes and says as follows: 18 EXAMINATION 19 20 BY MR. CALWELL: 21 (Whereupon the reporter marked for the purposes 22 of identification Plaintiff1s Exhibit #29*1 23 (Monsanto's I.D. #232553). _ 24 Q Mr. Homer, would you.state your name, 25 please? JA M ES MAY R E PO R TIN G SER V IC E i 1 A Henry J. Horner. 2 Q Where do you live, sir? 3 A. Collinsville, Illinois. 4 GL Are you employed? 5 A. Yes, sir. Q Who do you work for? 7 A. Monsanto. 8 Q What is your position with Monsanto? 9 A Chief Chemist at the Krumr.rich riant. 10 Q What is your education? 11 A. I have a Master's Decree in Analytical 12 Chemistry. 13 Where did you get that? 14 A. Kansas State University, Manhattan, Kansas. 15 Q What year? 16 A 195117 0, You have any additional course work or 18 degrees? 19 A That's my degree. Well, I had a 3.S. in 20 chemistry prior to that, of course. 21 Q Nothing further than the M.A.? 22 A That's right. 23 Q How long have you worked for Monsanto? 24 A Approximately twenty years. Be twenty years 25 in September. JAM ES MAY R E PO R TIN G SER VIC E --V 1 Q What was your first Job with Monsanto? 2 A. I was a group leader in what they call the 3 Process Research Group. 4 Q What kind of processes were you researching 5 in that group? 6 A. All the processes that are in operation at 7 the Krummrich Plant. 8 0, You been at the Xrummrich Plant the entire 9 twenty years that you have been with Monsanto? 10 A Yes, sir. 11 Q. During your time there did you have occasion 12 to work with 2,^,5 T or 2,*l D? 13 A No, sir, I didn't. 14 Q During your time there did you analyze 15 substances or products or chemicals for dioxin? 16 A I'm sorry, would you restate question. 17 Q. While you worked at the Krummrich Plant 18 have you ever analyzed or caused to be analyzed substances 19 for dioxin content? 20 A Yes, sir, there were materials analyzed for 21 dioxin content. 22 Q. When did you first do that? 23 A To my knowledge, the first samples that we 24 sent for dioxin content that I knew, was knowledgeable of, 25 was 1979. JAM ES MAY R E PO R TIN G SER VIC E i 1 2 3 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 -A \ii '22 v 23 24 25 ft And that would have been which dioxin? A. Chlorinated dioxin. ft Do you know about analyzing specifically for 2,3,7,8 tetrachlorodibenzo-para-dioxin? A. I donTt know, sir. ft You don't know whether that was ever done ai the Krumnrich Plant? A. No, sir, not as such. ft When you say you are Chief Cher.ist for the Xrummrich Plant, what are the duties of the Chief Chemist? A. Well, essentially the Chief Cher.ist is a misnomer. I'm really Laboratory Superintendent. My work is of an administrative nature. I have a lab force of about forty-five to fifty people, so I'm involved with personnel matters, performance reviews, salary administration, that sort of thing. ft What was the occasion in 1979 that you were analyzing for chlorinated dioxins, dibenzo-dioxins? A. There was a sample that was brought in that we arranged to get dioxin analysis on. ft What was it a sample of? A. It was a sample taken at the time of the Sturgeon spill. __ ft Be about January 10th, 1979? A. I don't remember the exact date. JA M ES MAY R E PO R TIN G SER V IC E 1 e 1 a In the wintertime? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q What were the results of that testing? 4 A. I never actually saw the results. All we 5 did was arrange to send the sample. , 6 Q When you say you arranged to send the sample, 7 what's that mean? 8 A Well, we have the responsibility for making 9 sure that all sanoles that are sent out of the plant for 10 testing or to customers or anything like that are sent 11 according to Department of Transportation regulations. 12 Q And you sent the sample to some other 13 laboratory? 14 A Yes, sir. 15 Q And where was that? l A It seems like It was a laboratory in 17 Nebraska somewhere, but I'm not positive. 18 Q Did you ever analyze for thechlorinated 19 dibenzo-dioxins, or whatever, at the Krumnrich Flant itself? 20 A 21 now. We are currently doing that on some products 22 CJ When did you first start doing It at the 23 Krummrich Plant? 24 Let's see, probably a year, year and a half 25 ago now, JAM ES MAY R E PO R TIN G S ER V IC E 1 2 3 4 .5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 . 21 22 23 24 25 G Early 1582, I guess? A. Yes, probably around there. Q Are any of those productsfrom the Nitro facility? A. No, sir. Q Are any of those substances or products \ that you're testing manufactured at the Nitro facility? A. No, sir. n What are those substances? A. They are chlorophenols. a Are they used in the intermediate steps in the manufacture of finished products that Monsanto produces? A. Yes, some of them are. Q And what are those products? A. Parachlorophenol is used in the manufacture of Santophen 1. Q You still manufacturing Santophen 1? > Yeah, for another month, probably. Q And are you analyzing orthochlorophenol, by -product of that? A. (Nods head affirmatively.) Q How long has orthochlorophenol been analyzed by Monsanto for dioxin? A. To my knowledge, like I said, for probably a year, year and a half. That's when we began being JAM ES MAY R E PO R TIN G SER VIC E 1 1 2 ** 3 `*4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 .22 23 24 25 involved in analyzing. . Q You don't know whether Monsanto analyzed the orthochlorophenol, by-product of Santophen process, before a year and a half ago, do you? A. No. Q Do you know who would know that? A. No, sir, I really don't. Q When you got the assignment to begin this testing, for these dioxins, and I assure 2,3,7.6 TCDD is one of then you're looking for, were you given some briefings by your company about dioxins? A. Yes, we were given an analytical method or procedure to use. Q When did you first learn that Monsanto was testing for dioxins? A. Really, I wasn't aware of it, I guess, until the time with the Sturgeon incident. Q When did you first hear about dioxins? A. Oh, early 170' s , late '60 's. Q In what context did you hear about them? A. Just general reading, perhaps, discussions. I really don't remember exactly the first time. Q, That would have been the first ..time period that you became aware of it? A. Yes. 'l JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE i 1 d And when you became aware of them, was that 2 in connection with any product that Monsanto was producing? 3 A. No, sir. 4 d When did you first learn about dioxin, if 5 you did, being connected with a product that Monsanto was producing? 7 A. Probably somwhere in the early '70's, nid8 '70's. 9 Q And what was the product? 10 A. Pentachlorophenol. U d How did you come to learn about dioxin ir. 12 connection with that product? 13 A Through discussions with some people who 14 were doing some research, process-type research. 15 d Who were they? 16 A The one I recall is Steve Vogel. 17 0* What was his title? 18 A He was Research Chemist. 19 Q Do you know if the only thing he was looking 20 at was pentachlorophenol? 21 A I Just don't know for sure, sir. That's 22 the only one I remember. 23 d Was he looking at anytrlchlorophenols? 24 A Not to my knowledge. 25 d At that time were you aware of a dioxin JA M ES MAY R E P O R TIN G SER VIC E t 1 problem associated with 2,^,5 trichlorophenoxyacetic acid 2 at the Nitro Plant? 3 A* No, sir. 4 Q Were you ever aware of that? 5 A. Not until fairly recently. 6 & When you began testing about a year and a 7 half ago at the Krummrich Plant for dioxin associated with 8 the Santophen process and orthochlorophenol, did you do any 9 research to see what Monsanto knew about dioxins and testing 10 for them? n A. Yes, because what we are doing is Monsanto 12 technology and methodology. 13 Q In looking at what Monsanto knew as of a 14 year and a half ago in preparation to undertake this project 15 to test Santophen and orthochlorophenol, what did you find 16 out? Did you see anything in there about the Nitro Plant 17 and 2,*i,5 T and dioxin? 18 A. I didn't see anything, no, sir. 19 Q Did anybody tell you about it? 20 A. If I heard it, it was strictly in a passing 21 manner. No, nothing specifically. 22 Q. Well, what did you hear In a passing manner? 23 A. I don't really recall. 24 Q In preparation for your project In connec 25 tion with Santophen, did you look at any documents that JAM ES MAY R E P O R TIN G SER V IC E tI 10 5 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 2 ` 22 23 24 25 Monsanto had from the Dow Chemical Company? A. No, sir. Q Were you given any instruction about the toxicity of dioxin in connection with your .preparation to start handling these materials? A. There were safety precautions as part of the methodology. Q And what were those safety precautions? A. Well, I've not been specifically doirr the analysis, so I can't relate In detail what they are. G Were you responsible for seeing to it that these safety precautions were communicated to the people who would actually be doing the work? A- No, sir. The method was submitted by people from Research, and they actually did the training and instruction of the people at the Krummrich Plant on how to do It. G So you don't know anything about that, rights A. That's right, no detail on it. Q Did anybody tell you about the risks associated with dioxin exposure in connection with your process with this Santophen? A. Nothing more than what I have already related. Q, Well, what were those risks? JA M ES MAY R E PO R TIN G SER VIC E l A I mean, of the safety precautions and so forth that were to be taken in doing; the analysis. Gt Anybody tell you about any health effects, adverse health effects being exposed to dioxin? A. No, sir, nothing more than what was very prevalent in the media and so forth. Q. Do they brief you from the media, is that what they do? A. No, sir. Q Well, did they brief you? They Just tell you, go read the newspapers to find out whether dioxin would hurt you or not? A No, sir. I've never been aware of any adverse health effects from dioxin. Q Okay. So far as you know, it doesn't hurt you, right? A That's right. Q * Is that what Monsanto told you? A No. That's a personal opinion. Q And what have you read that says dioxin won't hurt you? A I guess, the most recent thing I've read was the report from the A.M.A. __ _ .. Q Andwhat was that? A That was a few weeks ago, I think, when that JA M ES MAY R E P O R TIN G SER VIC E 1 release came. 2 Q That resolution? 3 A Yeah. 4 Q. Did you see the retraction of the resolution? 5 A Yeah, I saw something about that, yes, sir. 6 Q Have you read any of the literature about 7 dioxin in preparation for your overseeing this project In 8 connection with Santophen? 9 A. Yes, sir, I've read some literature. 10 Q What have you read? 11 A. I read a number of articles in the scientific 12 Journals, C & E News. 13 Q Any particular commentator or reporter that 14 you have read? 15 A Not that I remember specifically. 16 Q So from what you're saying, then, as far as 17 you know, TCDD, 2,3,7,8, is Just not toxic, right, doesn't 18 hurt you, in other words? 19 A To ny knowledge, it's never been proven to 20 be toxic to humans. 21 Q So there's no real reason to take safety 22 precautions with it, is there? 23 A Well, I think we take safety precautions 24 with a lot of things. 25 Q Let me hand you what's been narked Plaintiff' i JA M ES MAY R E PO R TIN G SERVICE 1 Exhibit 29k (Monsanto1s I.D. #232553)s and ask you to take 2 a look at that. 3 That 's in 197*1 memorandum from a Mr. Mieure, is it 4 not? 5 A. Yes. 6Q V 7 A. And addressed to you? Yes, sir. 8 Q And is on Monsanto letterhead? 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 a And you recognize that form, is that right? 11 A. I recognize the form, yes, sir. 12 Q And as far as you know, you got that? 13 A. I don't remember it. I'm sure I probably 14 got it, yes, sir. 15 a You have had an opportunity to look at 16 Exhibit 29*1, haven 't you? 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 a See anything in there that you disagree vrith^ 19 A. No, sir. 20 a That memo says you were testing for TCDD 21 in 197*1, doesn't it? 22 A. They were attempting to. 23 a Why would that have been addreased to you? 24 A. Probably because we supplied the sample to 25 Dr. Mieure. JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE l 1 Q And what was your job in 197^? 2 A. I was Chief Chemist. 3 a Same Job you have now? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q Why did it fall to you to supply the sample 6 to Dr. Kieure or to your department, or whatever? 7 A. 3ecause we have what we call the sales 8 sample function as part of the laboratory, and this is our 9 people that are responsible for sendinr out samples that 10 are requested in one form or another. 11 Q And what is the sales sample function, 12 what's that mean? 13 A. Okay. It supplies samples to customers -- 14 if through marketing customers request a sample of one of 15 our products, we had the capability in the lab of packaging 16 that material and sending it out. So we also send samples, 17 we also package and send practically all of the other sample 18 that go out of the plant also. 19 Q So if a potential customer would want to 20 try out a sample of whatever, 2,4,5 T, for example, in the 21 '6 0 's, your department would have been responsible for 22 packaging up, let's say, a quantity of it and getting it to 23 that customer for their testing or use? _^ 24 A. A function similar to that, yes. We didn't 25 have the sales sample function in the '60's as part of our JAM ES MAY R E P O R T IN G SER VIC E L r 1 laboratory. 2 0. Do you know who did? 3 A- It was part of the Technical Services 4 organization in the '60's, early '60's. I don't remember 5 the exact time when it became part of the laboratory. It 6 was sometime after 1966. 7 Q 3ut prior to 1966, as far as you know, it 8 was part of Technical Services? 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Cl And what was the physical location of the 11 department that would have had that responsibility for 12 packaging these samples? 13 A. It was part of the, I'd guess you'd say, the 14 administration building for the plant. 15 Q At Krummrich? 16 A. At Krummrich. 17 & So as far as you know, then, this sales 18 sampling function was always confined to the Krummrich Plant 19 area in one division or department or another? 20 A. Well, to send out products that we made at 21 that plant. Now, I'm sure that other locations have a 22 similar function also. 23 Q Okay. So is it your understanding that each 24 manufacturing facility has a sales sampling department or 25 function? JAM ES MAY R E P O R TIN G SER VIC E II 1 2 * 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 ; .21 22 23 24 ' 25 A. Yes, sir, I would think they do. a Okay. How, are records kept of the samples that you would send out from time to time, as to who they went to and what the request was and that sort of thing? A. There are records kept, yes. ft Do they have a name? Is there some specific form that' s followed? A- To my knowledge, they are l o g g e d in a log book. ft Even today? A. Yes, sir, ft Have you seen the log book? A. Yes, sir. ft Is it just a handwritten kind of thing? A. Yes. ft Do you know what happens to the log book? A. Well, they are kept on file for several years and then once the material has been assumed to have been used and so forth, the records are destroyed.. ft If somebody asked for the log books in the sales sampling function, at least, you would know what they were talking about, right? A. Yeah. . - ft Now, in 197^ why, if you know, were you testing for TCDD? JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE i1 17 1 A. Well, as I said, Mr. Vogel was working on 2 -- and he was not part of my organization. Ke was part of 3 the Process Research organization housed in the same '4 building in which I was located. 5 Q Do you know why Monsanto was testing for 6 TCDD in 197^? 7 A. I don't know why that testing was initiated, 8 no, sir. 9 Q Did you .know what Mr. Mieure was talking 10 about when he talked about the toxicity of TCDD in that n Exhibit 294? 12 A. Well, as I recall, the concern at that tine 13 was chloracne. That's the only thing that I was aware of. 14 Q, Do you know where the chloracne was occurring 15 at that time? 16 A. Would you elaborate on that, please? 17 Q. Was there a chloracne problem or a breakout 18 of chloracne at some Monsanto facility? 19 A. There were some people, apparently, have had 20 chloracne. 21 a And do you know where that was? 22 A. There were some at the Krummrich Plant. 23 0 Anyplace else? __ -- 24 A. I'm not aware of any anyplace else. 25 Q The effort that's described in Exhibit 29^ JAM ES MAY R E PO R TIN G SER VIC E 1 to analyze for TCDD, do you know how long that particular 2 project or job lasted, what period of time was involved 3 there? 4 A. No, sir, I don't exactly. I would estimate 5 that Mr. Vogel was involved with that, perhaps, for"a year, 6 or something like that. 7 Q And were you copied and did you receive most 8 of the correspondence that would be associated with that 9 ongoing project since you were over the, I guess, sales 10 sampling function, or, at least, that was in your department 11 at the time. 12 A. I don't remember any number of letters or 13 memos regarding that. 14 Q. Was there more than one? 15 A. I don't know. l Q, Do you recall any other projects or Jobs 17 like that to analyze for TCDD? 18 A. No, sir. That was the one that I mentioned 19 earlier that I was familiar with there was work being done. 20 Q Do you know if there were materials from other plants that would have been handled through your 22 department that would have been analyzed for TCDD? 23 A. No, sir, not to my knowledge, nothing from 24 other plants. 25 Q Do you know if Steve Vogel would have been JAM ES MAY R E P O R T IN G SER VIC E 14 i) , n 1 involved in analysing for TCDD in materials from other plants 2 A. NOj sir, I don't know that he was. I don't 3 believe that he was. He v/as assigned to work on products 4 at the Krummrich Plant. 5 Q Now, where did the pentachlorophenol come from? 7 A. We manufactured it for a number of years. 8 Q At the Krummrich Plant? 9 . A. Yes, sir. 10 a And in connection with your testing of the 11 pentachlorophenol, were you also testing along about that 12 time the orthochlorophenol that was the by-product of 13 Santophen? 14 A. I really don't remember, sir. I was not 15 supervising the work and I Just don't remember. 16 Q That would have been in 197^ when Steve 17 Vogel was doing this? 18 A. Right. 19 Q, At that time, at least, the preparation of 20 any samples for shipment, or whatever, would have come 21 through you, is that right? 22 A. It's likely they would have, although, I'm 23 sure there were instances where they went over by some other 24 source. 25 Is it likely also that orthochlorophenol JAM ES MAY R E P O R TIN G SER VIC E 20 %. ] 2 3 4 . 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 V . *".i 23 23 24 25 *l was included with the pentachlorophenol? In fact, that whole family were probably being tested, werenTt they, at that time? > - A. I don't know. Q Is it likely that they were? A. You're asking me for an opinion? Q Uh huh (yes). A. I would think it was likely they would have been, yes. a They are fairly closely related, you're chlorinating a benzene ring, so if you were into that par- ticular problem of analysis, it would make sense, would it not, that you'd probably be looking at pentachlorophenol and orthochlorophenol in 197^ -- A. Yes, sir, I would think so. G. And dioxins were in fact found in one degree or another in the pentachlorophenols and orthochlorophenols. weren't they? A. I'm knowledgeable that they found them in the penta, yes. Q And from your knowledge of testing procedures if they were testing the orthochlorophenol, they, at least, had the capability of finding it there also if .they could find it in the penta, right? A. Yes, sir. JC- JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE l1 2 s. i 1 2 X 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 l 17 18 19 20 ; . 21 22 23 24 V 25 Now, are records kept of those kinds of tests? A. There are records kept at the time that the work is done, but they are not kept indefinitely. Q tion of -- Is there some policy that relates to reten- A. Therers a records-retention system. Q How would you identify the work that Mieure -- I ass ume he would be writing down his findings and recording it somehow? A. Y e s, sir, I would certainly assume so. Q, Are those called laboratory records, or do they have a specific name within your organization? A. Laboratory notebook. Q Okay. And, I suppose, those are handwritten documents that are created as the experiment, or whatever, is progressing? A. That's right. Cl By the person who's actually doing the work? A. That's right. Q Now, are those laboratory notebooks likewise covered by your retention policy, documents retention policy? A. I'm not sure because what we_do..with the laboratory notebooks at the Krummrich Plant after a booklet has been filled, it's sent over to the library system at the i i JAMES MAY REPO RTING SERVICE %i 22  1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 1 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 general offices and microfilmed and then they maintain the files. ^ Well, that makes more sense. Obviously, you wouldn't want to discard information that you gleened from experience, so you'd want to record that, I suppose, 'as opposed to correspondence or something like that? A. Right. Q, So as far as you know, the laboratory note books, as such, become.a part of the library of information that Monsanto would have? A. Y e s , s i r , t o my k n o w l e d g e . a As f a r as yo u know , i t ' s m ic ro film e d ? A. Y e s , s i r . Q A l l r i g h t . C o u ld I see 29^ f o r a m in u te ? A. Y e s , s i r . Q Now, in th e f i r s t p a ra g ra p h o f 29^ re fe re n c e is made to seven chlorophenol fractions. Do you knew what that means? A. Those were production fractions, samples that were taken from the production process at the time. & Now, when you say chlorophenol, is that sufficiently descriptive to tell you what chlorophenol? A. No, sir, it isn't. Q. It could have been the ortho, the penta? A. I don't remember enough about the process JAM ES MAY R E P O R T IN G SER VIC E 1 at this point in time to specifically state what specific 2 composition those fractions might have been. 3 Q Now, in the body -- I'm going to call that 4 a letter, . 5 A. All right. 6 Q In the body of that letter from Mr. Meiure 7 to you some general observations are made about the dioxins 8 that may be thrown or created in the chlorophenols. Are 9 those comments general to the orthochlorophencls, the penta10 chlorophenols? In other words, we are talking about the 11 family of chlorophenols, really, in that letter, aren't we? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q And that would support youropinion that it 14 was likely that orthochlorophenol was likewise being con 15 sidered at that time? 16 A I would think it might be, but I don't 17 really have knowledge of that. 18 Q And you're an analytical chemist? 19 A Yes, sir. 20 (T And as ananalyticalchemist, ifsome con 21 clusions are made about the chlorophenols and their potential 22 for dioxins, those statements may have some application to 23 the particular chlorophenols, like, penta or ortho, isn't 24 that right? 25 A Yes, sir. JAM ES MAY R E P O R TIN G SER VIC E lI 1 Q. The ability of the chlorophenols to create 2 dioxins at various uses and stages, it's kind of a common 3 thread when you're dealing with chlorophenols in these 4 various processes, isn't that right? You know what a 5 chlorophenol will do, and if you're working with ortho6 chlorophenol and you know it's a chlorophenol, you know you 7 have the potential to create a dioxin, don't you? 8 A. That's possible. Like I say, I've forgotten 9 -- I 'm not all that knowledgeable, directly knowledgeable-of 10 the process, but I think there are sone -- I think the 11 higher chlorinated materials would certainly tend to have 12 more potential for dioxin. 13 Q That's right. So if the penta had a 14 potential, then you as an analytical chemist would know you 15 get Into orthochlorophenols and you're a little higher there, 16 are you not? 17 A. No, you're not. 18 Q You're lower? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. You know that the penta and ortho both have 21 the capability of throwing a 2,3,7,8 tetrachlorodibenzo22 para-dioxln? 23 A. I don't know that. 24 Q Just the ortho, right? 25 A. I don't know that the ortho does. JA M ES MAY R E PO R TIN G SER V IC E 25 1 Q You know what chlorophenols will have the 2 potential of creating a 2,3,7,8 TCDD? 3 A. No. sir, I don't. 4 Q I mean, you never learned that as an 5 analytical chemist? 6 A. No, sir. Not the chemistry of formation of \ 7 the dioxins. 8 Q. And I'll ask you this one more time. In '74 9 you were looking at these chlorophenols foi their dioxin 10 potential? 11 A. Mr. Vogel was looking at It. 12 Q And you said that you thought one of the 13 reasons was because of chloracne you thought might have been 14 existing at the Krummrich Plant. You know of any other 15 reason why you might have been looking at the chlorophenols 16 for their potential dioxin content? 17 A. No, sir, I don't. . 18 a And the next time you heard about Monsanto 19 looking at chlorophenols for their dioxin potential was In 20 early 1979 associated with the Sturgeon spill, Is that right? 21 A. Yes, sir. To my knowledge, that's what I 22 recall. 23 Q So, at least, in your recollection after 24 1974 or '75, whatever that time period was when Mr. Vogel 25 was looking at the chlorophenols for dioxins, the next time JA M ES MAY R E P O R T IN G SER VIC E I 1 1 2 3 . 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 \ 21 22 23 24 25 you know that Monsanto was concerned about it was in early 1979 associated with the Sturgeon spill, is that right? A. To my knowledge. Because Mr. Vogel left the plant into another position and there wasn't anyone there doing that type of work subsequent to that. Q Now, during that time period, '7^ to 1979, v aside from the work that Mr. Vogel did in ' 7*J and then the work that you became, at least, tangentially involved in in *79, do you know of any other testing that Monsanto was doing for dioxins associated with chlorophenols? A. Veil, I heard reference to Chick Edema tests. Q. Okay. And when did you hear about that? A. That was about the same tine that Mr. Vogel was doing this work. Q In fact, it's mentioned in that memo, is it not? A. Yes, sir. Q Exhibit 29*i? A. Yes, sir. Q And you also knew about rabbit ear tests, right? A. Yes, sir, I heard about those. Q What did you hear about the rabbit ear tests' A. Just that tests were being done. To my knowledge, I never saw any results. t l JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE i 2| 1 a Never saw any -- 2 A. Never saw any results or never saw the 3 rabbit. 4 Q With chloracne, right? 5 A. Because that was not'done at our location. But that was something in your line of work \ 7 as an analytical chemist you would have had some interest in, 8 wouldn't you? 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 G In fact, in your training as an analytical 11 chemist you did have some introduction to the toxicity of 12 various substances, did you not? 13 A. Well, yes, sir, you're always -- 14 I mean, that you're going to be working with 15 them. 16 A. You're always concerned with the safety 17 aspects of anything you work with. 18 G That was part of the course work you did? 19 At least, that was associated with the textbooks you read 20 and the literature? 21 A. Yes, sir. You were always taught not to 22 add water to acid. 23 Q In your studies and, I assume, you kept 24 abreast over the years of developments in your field? 25 A. I've tried to. JA M ES MAY R E P O R TIN G SER VIC E 28 1' 1 2 3 : 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 -, . 2 1 22 23 24 25 Gl Aside from the media that you have read. the newspaper accounts of pros and cons of the toxicity of dioxins, did you read anything else at all about toxicity of dioxins? '* A. In what manner, sir, what type? Cl Did you read they were toxic? A- Well, I've read in a number of scientific journals reference to their being toxic to animals. ft Okay. So you at least knew that. Was that in the early '70's that you knew about that? A- About that time. ft Did you ever read a German study by Kemick (phoenetic) in 1957 regarding the toxicity of 2,3,7,8 tetrachlorod ibenzo-para-dioxin? A- No, sir, I don't recall reading that. ft You are familiar with it, though? A. No, I really can't say that I am. I joined Monsanto in 1963 and I was doing analytical work prior to that for another company but in a different line of cheni- cals. ft What company were you working for? A. Dow-Corning. Q You worked with no chlorophenols or anything like that? A. No, sir. Dow-Coming was involved strictly 'V 1 JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 4 2S 1 with silicone. 2 ft Did you have any connection with a Nitro 3 Task Force? Pu No, sir, not at all. 5 ft 6 Suskind? Ever seen or read any studies by Raymond 7 A. No, sir, I can't recall that I did. 8 ft Do you know who he is? / 9 A. No, sir. 10 ft Now, do you know Dr. Callis? n A. From Monsanto? 12 Q Yes, sir. 13 A. Yes, sir, I know who he is. U ft Did you ever work with him or under him or 15 for him? 16 A. No, sir. 17 ft Dr, Meyer? F. Meyer, Ferd Meyer at Monsanto. 18 He's retired now but he was with Monsanto? 19 A. No, sir, I don't recall him. 20 ft The fourth paragraph of Exhibit 29^ reads, 21 "Alternatively, another course of action seems attractive. 22 Since the reason for this analysis is to determine what 23 safety precautions are needed for the handling .and disposal 24 of this residue, a more direct measurement of overall 25 toxicity is available. This would be to subject the residue JAM ES MAY R E PO R TIN G SER V IC E 30 9 1 2 j^ i *'' 3 *i* *. * ' V 'V ' * 1'i 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 to a biological test, such as the rabbit ear or chick embryo tests. 'This has the additional advantage that it might detect other toxic components which could be in the residue, such as other chlorodlbenzodioxihs. or chloro- dibenzofurans. While these compounds are significantly less toxic than TCDD, we should not overlook their possible effect on the overall residue toxicity." Then Mr. Kieure continues3 "It is my understanding that you and Steve Vogel are in basic agreement with this approach." This letter was addressed to you, so I assume the "you" !-'r. Meure was referring to was K. J. Korner? A. I guess that's right. Q Did you determine what safety precautions should be taken in handling those dioxins referred to In Exhibit 29^? A. I didn't. I'm not aware of anything further on that. Q In 197^ do you think you would have known what Mr. MIeure was talking about? A. I'm sure I was aware of his concerns. Q And Is it true that you were in agreement with what he was saying? A Yeah, he certainly had a lot_ more expertise In that area than I did at the plant. Cl That may be true, but Is it true you were in JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE li wr . $ 1 agreement with what he was saying there in 29*1 for testing 2 for safety precautions in that fashion? 3 A Yeah, what he was talking about there, I'm 4 sure, is being in agreement with the additional testing, 5 the rabbit ear and chick edema test., 6 Q And you knew what he was talking about, 7 referring to rabbit's ear and chick edema, in 197*1, right? 8 A. My only knowledge of it was it was supposed 9 to show response such as to chloracne type. 10 Q, You really weren't very curious at all about 11 this dioxin or TCDD or chlorophenols in 197*1, I guess? 12 A Mot to any great extent. 13 Q. And even today you're not, is that right? 14 A That's right, I 'm still not aware of any 15 human health effects. 16 Q, And you're just not particularly curious 17 about it either? 18 A I'm curious, certainly. 19 G You don't really ask anybody about. It, do 20 you, in the plant or your superiors or people In the 21 medical department? It's just not of much interest to you, 22 is it? If it were, you'd know more about It, wouldn't you? 23 A Yes, sir, I feel we'd know what we need to 24 know to work safely with the material. 25 Q, Okay. Tell me what you need to know to work JAM ES MAY R E PO R TIN G SER VIC E i 32 1 safely with the material since you do know that. 2 A. Well, the material really is in very, very 3 small concentrations in anything we work with, parts per 4 trillion, and the chemists that are actually doing the work 5 were instructed by the people who developed the method on 6 the necessary procedures to work with it safely. 7 Q And do you know what those procedures are? 8 A Not in detail. 9 Q Do you know about them generally? 10 A I can't relate them in order, no, sir. 11 Q Is it that you can't or you Just aren't 12 going to? 13 A I really haven't -- no, sir, I just don't 14 know what they are in detail. 15 (J Is your lack of knowledge about these things 16 typical of Monsanto employees at your level? You don't 17 seem to know very much about it. 18 A I'm not directly involved with the analysis. 19 I haven't done any so-called bench work for twenty years. 20 Q In Exhibit 29^ reference is made to concen 2 1 . tration levels of TCDD in these particular samples at the 22 six- to seven-parts-per-million concentration level, and you 23 just testified that the concentration levels of these 24 dioxins that you're aware of that. Monsanto tests and works 25 with are in very small quantities, minute concentrations, I JA M ES MAY R E PO R TIN G SER V IC E 33 1 think you said parts per trillion. 2 A. Yeah, parts per billion, parts per trillion. 3 Q. Has Monsanto established any .safe level of 4 dioxin concentration, a level that you are concerned about 5 in terms of implementing safety precautions and handling a 6 chemical with that particular level of dioxin? 7 A. Yes, sir, I know they have established a 8 level below which they don't ship any material. 9 Q I'm not sure I follow that, A level below 10 which they donTt ship any material? 11 A. Yeah. If they analyze and find above a 12 certain number, they would not ship that material. 13 & I see. If it had a level -- 14 A. Concentration. 15 Q A concentration of dioxin above a certain 16 level, then that would not be shipped to a customer? 17 A Right. 18 Q. What Is that level? 19 A I don't have knowledge of that. This is 20 handled through a different part of the organization. 21 Q And when the sales sample function was 22 handled under your direction, was there also a level for 23 dioxin above which you would not ship materials.? 24 A The sales sample function is currently under 25 my direction and has been since probably '67, *68, somewhere JA M ES MAY R E PO R TIN G SER VIC E L 1 around there. 2 Q. But you don't know what the level is of > 3 dioxin which would prohibit you from shipping something to 4 the customer, is that right? 5 A. The material that's^released for shipment 6 has to meet certain specifications. 7 Q, I don't doubt that. 8 A. We get permission from Marketing as to what 9 material can be sent. 10 Q And what permission have you gotten with 11 relation to dioxin content during the period 1966 through 12 today? 13 A. Well, as I said, we have Just begun analyzing 14 routinely for dioxin within the last year to year and a half, 15 and this is when the level I'm talking about, to my 16 knowledge, has been established. 17 Q What is that level? You surely know it. 18 don't you? 19 A. I can't say specifically the number of parts 20 ner billion. 21 Q. Is it one part per billion? 22 A. I really don't know specifically, I know 23 it's down in that area. 24 Q Was there any standard in 197^? 25 A. No, sir, not to my knowledge. JA M ES MAY R E PO R TIN G SER VIC E I 35 1 Q In 1970? 2 A. (Shakes head negatively. ) 3 Q As far as you know, the first time that I' 4 Monsanto ever had a standard for dioxin content was in, 5 like, the last year and a half, is that what you're saying? 6 A. That's in regard to chlorophenols, yes, sir 7 the products that I Tm knowledgeable. 8 Q. Chlorophenols, that's what we have been 9 talking about. 10 MR. CALWELL: All right, Mr. Homer. 11 Thank you very much. 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 Henry J. H o m e r 22 23 24 25 JA M ES MAY R E P O R TIN G SER VIC E ! 36 1 2 STATE OF ILLINOIS ) ) SS 3 COUNTY OF MADISON ) 4 5 6 7 I, M. JOY SPRINGER, a Notary Public, duly 8 commissioned and qualified in and for the County of Madison, 9 State of Illinois, do hereby certify that pursuant to notice 10 cane before me on the 8th day of July, 1983, at the 11 Radisson Hotel, Room 215, 9th Street and Convention Plaza, 12 St. Louis, Missouri, HENRY J. HORNER, who was by me duly 13 sworn to testify to the truth and nothing but the truth of 14 his knowledge touching and concerning the matters In con 15 troversy in this case; that he was thereupon carefully 16 examined upon oath, and his examination reduced to writing 17 under my supervision; that the deposition is a true record 18 of the testimony given by the witness;' and signature of the 19 witness was not waived by agreement of counsel. 20 I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am neither attorney 21 nor counsel for nor related to nor employed by any of the 22 parties to the action In which this deposition is taken; 23 and further, that I am not a relative or employee of any 24 attorney and counsel employed by the parties hereto, or 4 25 financially Interested in the action. JAM ES MAY R E P O R TIN G SER VIC E [ 37