Document MrdQQy9QX5QkLJoERmyKpOYL

1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT TWENTIETH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT OP ILLINOIS 2 ST. CLAIR COUNTY 3 4 FRANCES E. KEMNER, et al., 5 Plaintiffs 6 7 MONSANTO COMPANY 8 Defendant ) ) ) ) ) CAUSE NO. 80-L-970 ) ) ) ) 9 10 REPORT OP PROCEEDINGS 11 Before the HONORABLE RICHARD P. GOLDENHERSH 12 Testimony of Mr. Phocion Park 13 Volume II 14 April 16, 1985 15 16 APPEARANCES: 17 MR. REE CARR, Attorney at Law, and MR. JEROME SEIGFREID, Attorney at Lav, 18 On behalf of the Plaintiffs; 19 MR. JOHN MUSGRAVE, Attorney at Law, and MR. JOSEPH NASSIF, Attorney at Law, 20 On behalf of the Defendants; and 21 MR. JAMES CRAVEN, Attorney at Lav 22 23 PATRICIA A. GANDY, CSR, RPR 24 Official Court Reporter S,' > "n 1 ' -r' 1 [' ;r ^,, WITNESSES: INDEX 3 MR. PHOCXONPARK 4 Continued Clarlfication Examination by 75 v - 'Mr.`Kusgrave\ \ 'v *5 , ` 2 , . Racrona Examination By Mr. Carr . .. ; . . . . . . 141 6 8 .EXHIBITS: VI ' ?' 4 -, 'iO r -<a I I miKBER V..,;vv -v\, c - J- ' J' .V v , > v Defendant' Exhibit 833 ^5. V ` Defendant's Exhibit 884 MASKED [ \ V 113 \ 'p-j offered ' - E mitted '' 12 Defendant1a Exhibit 885 127 FORM l l '24 0 PEN CAD C O .. BA YO N N E, N .J. 07002 13' Defendant!. Exhibit 886 * *t, _ r " ^ ' J ' * 14 Defendant1s'Exhibit 887. 133 , ; 'i33 I S , e !'*" " ..r , - .1. f 1Ti t 16 Vl7'" :.18 > 19; 20 \2i ' 22'l In-Chambers Conference..VV Pa8* 7?, \r-Vl'. U ) . O C 'l V j ! t 'V . ;/* s is-K-Z if- > 1<TS2 sv ? t`v \ N` -.Vi j-'-V 'v- *- . .? iiP vvt;;-6n ,'t ny> 'J < r J -y *. o -. <>y*^*, ^J:?t'v*-*- / fJ. . V 4.4*1- 'L44 i ^ -V*`4r-. w U v s i; ^ .5 ^ L$ '23 .2 4 - ..y kSS 1'* i '^4 V> ^ r ' \ V . A " 1t -/ 0 >" t ' S -V _ . ;. \ ^ viV ^ `, V- l^ y j * i * k 1 --,, 75 / I. '2 - (She followingproceedings,were'held in cheaper.) t . ' _ L v ; - -',,.''V'1-' - j 1 -`f' \ MR.CRAVEN: Judge9 two things. 1 have beta working on the . '3 ... Petition for-leave to Appeal in the gag order thing end necessarily read , 4 ;lt again and tomorrow X am stoking a speech at Southern Illinois University -'V ' to the law school and the journalism achooly including dls'representatives 6\ , r V And the subject matter of my apeach la the First Asandaent and X think 7 . there la still/soma of it left" and X want to talk about it and necessarily '8. - that would include this gag order. ,;:L -> ,7' \: 9 r. J `y . THB COBBY: It's a published opinion. Vyy 10 HRi CRAVEN: Butyeucan't talk about th* gag order without *-J)- / ... ` \ J. ' ' * "V',: ; ' -`'V, , -- /' - i" J.[ .V ; .' ' 1 * -,/ - - ' r?i <X\ V intimating the exlstence of thie case, end the gag order has an express ; L 12 . proscription against the mention of this caae> My training is such whether : 13; . I agree ordieagraewith an order' I am not going to violate one* r , v 14- THE COURT: X understand that and appreciate that. . ,,15 " MR, CRAVEN:.And r don't want to do anything that,would open me. c- \ 7 ? / ":7 ` -- ':.`n < 'V ;16` ", up .to an aasartionof violation ao X'm asking for clarification or something 17 "\r' r an understanding that X can oaka a apeech to a;journalise and lav school *> 5; l8 'r. group,on the FiratAsandncnt and talkaboutthisgag order with iaptinity.,'y . .19 t. MR..CARR: .What you are asking for is relief-from,the gag order*. ,t_/.>7 " '- * .vjJ' '* ;= { `\ / ; 1r ^ :1 ' ' ;20 / You want the Court to give you dlepenaatlon in your Instance.froa the gag . 21;, order la whet you:ate saying; ia thAt correct?^ 22-''l ^ "UR. CRAVEN: X!a saying that X^rccognise that-this gag _order says ',*J.J23' V 24' that aa;ah. attornay- ior iMonMnto I caimot ii^ntion thio case or intlnuite its . .^c l v i . , i i . * i* ' I V , ' % v * ^ .``- v i* . ~ 'V - U ' . , ^v - '^ 'E' v% t .i,.a h" c . ' | - -. ; t esiatenco or, Its trial or any particular^facta or clrcueatances or poaltlon :-r / \ Vi"';U ; > ' -v. <r .. ` , V t J> - ` ^ r. '. xiS V ?*/'>. .FO RM ; ,U, 14 B i t` r^ *; r of the parties concerning the.litigation. Now# Judge, you can't talk about a gag order. That vpbuld bQ lKinaculate, and that's tny problem* 3 =* . THE COURTr .Do you have any eoaoent? ; :; ;. , / . ' 4 1^- HS* CARR: The Plaintiff?a position la that since Jlis has chosen 25.', to align himself with the devil, he has to oblige himself to obey the rules 1 6 ,that apply to the davll f and the gag order wouldapply to him, and Jim ; 7- knows tfcatif haspokebeforethe media in terms critical of the gag order; ... :8- which he vould do because ha dose, that It's entirely .possible that the press could pick that up. It'seutirelypbasible that it could.be published - 11 .12 in the Post-Dispatch and put on TV* "ex-appeXlato judge.criticizes"* end : ; '[- ` r, ; ' ' ' ' 'i ' ' / ^7 ' _ .v / . ^ , ;.**'- , , 'J ' ^ ^v 7^ . . </ v ' --j ' * 1' : _' _ ' ' they may not even mention; they may;riot, even know that you represent * 1 . "i - , ^ 'p* 1 \ r' ^ ^ r^ * * ' . * V V * ,`l = N J *" 1 - V -> . J- * \ P ' `L - (. : Tt ,, ; / ''' . . 1 7-: * - v - ' * . 1- ' ; * -* `e Monsanto, and this Jury could conceivably read that- navapaper ,publication - 13 and could conceivably ba Influenced by it *\,:Hov*'I'm not.suggesting that ,", '14 that's the reason you ara .going down,thare.to taake this apaech,; but it '.15' could occur, and I don* t aco paraohally why there should ba any different FORM* IL 24 B rulea fof you than thera ia for other lavyars rotalned and paid for by' PEN GAD C O ., B A YO N N E./"N .J. 070 01 m Hohaanto bacauae it could gat to tha press lt could conceivably, ba raad / V 18 by the Jury* it could conceivably influence their deliberations. ~/j ^ i ;|ji J. n, &;* ' > L' r" * ' * <*. , ' * .. *I ' ' r %1' K i ^ * fc * HR. CRAVEN:, It vould ba the first time sines 01111am the - _ L% i *? * .. Conqueror landed "that e la^ar le precluded from talking about a'published - - - .*'-* * ^ .t ' ' h . t ^ ha . * -F * , - 1- V , ^ J *\ - .- ,'2 1 opinion. '. Nov* X think that's hot an ovarstatemsnt* and surely that1a not - 22\ 23 ' v 24; *, . a - \ r'' ft-1^ . '^ '"i r ' \ '< v i * - t ' ' ' ' ' HR* CARRs Wi l j it's the flrat tls& that 1 em evare of chat a - ' -ti ' J 1,L' . - L v publlahad bplnlon haa coserout ;vhllc the ease ls still being tried* and it 's t ' * r fV ^ `r^ni . F 1 r h \ p '' 1 > ,S , ` ` - fc- " ; "; . 7. -- - o -J ' P. - nj ^, _ 'Zm K - , .. ^ ' " 'jL, 4T rv :-<y.c ^ - *'' 1 ^ A- " i i fwv 4| * * i" -i* ^ *i i y-L'V I \ ^ : ; j" _ . ;;; ^ \ ; # 4 -M ^ t: h ; A^1, , V J. , , "' \ - - ,. * * v ,1 J " ^ 1 > / *-,  77 V-N 1 . 2' .3 the flrat tins that *_ *j t * HR. CRAVEHj t know o that-- ^L ^t ' * ,'F " Look at all of the CBS caeea/ s 1 *' *1 "I a * * T- '* " " 1 ' hJ ' " J- , i L - ' 'J > - " . -j* , l \^ " MR* CABR -- t h a t t h e lawyer for one of th* parties to that case, 4 la wanting to apeak publicly about tha caea that*a ongoing and being triad' and to sake a peach In front of stadia, which would of necessity criticise 5 this Court because that*a what you believe, and with necessity could Influence 6 - ; ? r- the eutcooe of this case. And While Z ao not saying that you would design, 8 it so, It could be so interpreted, and Z personally would be opposed to lifting the gag order, and asking an exception for you; . 'V 9 ; : 1 :HR. CRAVEHr, Clearly, the reason I'nhsre la the dllesses'that's .;ii;; postd by thie. - - '. , s:12 . THE COURT: ;V.. '-**'* : \ 1^ r -'V -L ' -V* Z appreciate your checking with na before rather than ` 13 ; after. -, ^: 14. ; HR.CEAVEN! That's right, 1 don't want the problem afterwards, 15 and I have,*no choice but to abide. I have no Intention to sake any attack 16 other than the type of attackifchat X cako in th Appellate Court or that "'17j ` ' we are tasking in'the Petition for Leave,, and X know that this Court la not ^. 18 sensitive to people challenging a decision. , ' : 19 - THE COURT t Ofcouraenot. . / '` vi20 HR. CRAVEN: :Ho one .could ba. You would go ,bonkers If you suffered that. And it?a going to cose up. I'm calking to the journalisa collage, 121 ' 22 X'ntalklng to ihe lawechool-- // '' ` , 'S ' ; t' / V * .1 i t - X iH/ 'i ` ' - . . .- -, , 23 - ' -THE'COURTi KoV I tt glad that you checked it out, because If you. f 24 ' don't bring itiup,' ao^ona would ask youionyway. Z think unfortunately since - . i ^l -tv j1 . .- - _, .: BAYO N N E. N .J. 07001 '' * ,r \\ ' - ! 5-./ 1 . ' i -V- ' , , , r- ,,; r ' ,I 7> ^ . . , 1C 1 .' .- ' - * . / Jr . / .- , ,' - 1 you ere in the position of representing Monsanto it's the type of situation 2 Where I think this order that I had entered would have to apply And I don*$ 3 think-- the problemla you?re.sort of wearing two hats*' ,4 - MR* CRAVE: I'anotspeaklng to a-- I 'n hotthore as an advocate* 5 ' TEE COURT: 1 understand that but you do represent Monsanto. 6 . MR* CRAVEN: That*a right* ^ y i v THE COURT: And, that *s the problem* and X understand that when you]re / T 8 speaking to these'journalise students end; any actively working .people of the aedia vho would.be there,as ali as any lav students who vould coee by, you 10 would be ipaaklng as e former.Appellate.Court justice and an attorney active ii: in this area 'land Z understand that.. But you are also rsprssanttng Monsanto, 12. you are ons of their retained attorneys* And because of that and because, 13 of this position end realistically the problems.that Mr* Carr pointed out* 14 - I would like to'grant you the' relief but I think that it Would be unwise to 45 - do.sov So you areunder the gag order and you can* you know* yea* I yea iV ._ ? Involved X am under the geg order* .X csn\c answer the question* "17. "Jj MR* CRAVES: I canBt mention the gag order. 18 THE COURT:' Wall you just eay I'm Involved intbe case and I', 19/ can't talk about it o r ;answer any questions about it period* It*a really 20 ii Ilka that and.X hkve found from my experience and,I'm aura you have from .i . . .r. ' "f- - Z , ,, " youra slncsyour judicial experience la substantially longer., that audlencds -- r ^ . ; , . 7 = : . 22 pretty much accept `if you eay1I-can' t eay certain things because of ay. ,- 1 4- \4 u v v ^! yv , -r ?*. r - ' 23 position a n d l y i l l teH. ytm vhen X .can^t X hove never bAd. any problem' 24 , with that frankly; -~ r . a-y `*jA X l1-.--.';'' iv;jtN\T (i<\ .1 V\ . PEN GAD C O ;,  'sa "L r^r" 79 1 MR* CRAVEN: I will Abide the limitations. I don't like them* but 2 X will abide by-them* h* J,T: h ' '` ^ ^ 1- ^ 1 'y ' ' ^ '1 ' \r 3\ THE COURT: Iundsristahd that. *'*-: * ~ " v-/'. ^ y*,. " i - - .y ` v _: 4 .MR. CRAVEN: New, the other thing it relates to, I was here last 5 week end we gave1you fot lh c^era inspection a piece of paper showing 6 ,7 ^8 ,9 . io 11 12" 13 14 igati^icwtV,'-;;^V f'fL ..7 ' \ v* o *.yv r < u v -!- v--l* 'X*v y ' THE COURT: Right*- ^ /% ' , j. . h .^ : F-- n^vV-v ,<y, ft 'T-? 'v H :'- ' - ' * -;/r , , - ..'- '.MRi CRAVEN:- ;And-ve^tooV the position that it was not discoverable, y .r - - i._;.y y~v -ty y ~V' w ^ /,. _ .. - and\t now learn,that you have turned it over, you excised-- - ^ - ..' " .'i f"- ' y , .THE COURT: X excised eonsof it and I ordered the pother part 1* , " , t* "+ 'f . a ,' i-.' 1i ^ * i J ^ " turned over* k. y t 'J --.'7 -V /- y ' y `-,, t " * " ` v *k|!Kp *.L-J * *1 -^ j^ ^ J-' ' * * * 'v \ m ` * r m" ' ' j . < ' . ` f- ' , J LI *S ^ .'y, -; t '' t "'t " *- s'1 * ' ' ' v .MR, CRAVEN: 'ticrw, there is what we think in even a stronger category, but in view of the expanding nature of all. of this thing and in ' " . ,-i-'S. " /V'V,, -l' ,'v `-L v / - ' 1 r . . - '-j the Interest ofigetting absolutely no questions; outside counsel in connoctid 15 with other litigation have hired consultshto. And these consultants have 16 Worked with those lawyers in tlmt litigation to give theta material. . - -t i . '17 r ^ -:t, . . -/`\ r - .r-.. ."/ ' THE COURT: - Un htra. . . ,l1 - / l' 18. :^ ^ MS* CRAVEN: Lnd it ms used by them in cohnectibh with other 19 . 20 2V - 22 23 r ;..;2 4 litigation* y- ^ ' w s & m m X . uo he*..; - V ; y ^ , y. `. ^ y - ; :, . .r" - \ , .`V * v' y *j " ' ' ' " \ t -- . . 1 > t ti,v- ' ` ` `- ; MR* CRAVEN: And it was not deemed-- if the question was raised, X _ ,y , - *'y* - r. * *-p : V- . 11' hT j ; . doa't even know that the question was raised, but It. was. not discoverable in that litigation as a product ;of lawysrs. Some of. that material la in the ^ f.v# ' - /; r'^y \ ' ,r'- . `,c~- J ' - '< L.''; / , - file of aomc of the in~house lwyers who worked with the outside counsel ` 07002 ' FORM `IL . 24 B PENGAD jC O ..' BVON N E. 4- 8 * - * /, - *' t ,, * , . jV " * ' " y' r 'l ` ^F s ` 1 . rb , -i ^1 vV- v ``M' ' 1^ " -r * .'L - 11'". " :' v.i . i ', ,,7 '2 THS CORT 'Sure* . ' 7' _- Y .. 7 * 7 ^ i * ^7*. ^ i '' * /* 1 7 _>;. 7 tv* ^ L, jf > y ta . r - ` ? t' 7 ' r ' V' MR, CBAVEN: We're representing to:you that that's bat the fact t r. 7 .3 4 5 is, we don't think that's even rerrotcly discoverable, but we don't want ' , - v' * " * >- 'j " '-7,--^ ' >' p '. ^ r< j \ l t r ** r\ . ^ .f 7* to be In the position of having someone assert at a futurtime that It la ' " J" ` " ' . `>/7 \ ' r 'V : . 7 ' " ' ' / \ ; -J - . diacoverabla or that It waa any bad.faith. And so to obviate that, va're 6 ' ' v 7 -, 7 9 ,7 10 t - \ . ( \ ~r - - \ . A .. i 7 V' i l / talking about' it new,'\X don't;;khw if you want, us to try to dig that up 7 .. ^ 7 7 7 7 - ^ `V "7 7 f y. 7, \ . and oafets lt-^- '7,i 7 7" y "- - 4~-.7yy. 7yV /V\7|47' fV -C' ' 1 ''-a \ ' iTHE COURT: s.'I'd ilka'tosaaa.lt In .-camera, r -. 7 s\ 7 7 mt ^ v- t - ' > " f''r '" ,, f %a ..1 ^ HR, CRAVEN: But then, `Judge, we have the further feeling on r*s`"f - *,jj.v.^{"'.->*i'xi5 vc'" ^ ` , ,'* * " "> ! *f / J t'- 1 ^ ' *' `this that,clearly If you eay produce ltv we h&ve to produce.It and wo will* - : \\ 12 13 But we also, I thlnk, are entitled,: showing that ve ara In good faith, /' /.. ' , ... ,r . we are entitled to aooe kind ,of.a slow-down ln the process to allow us to atteupt to get a supervisory order In the event there, is turn over order, because ve think that that is Clearly a lawyer'a work product. And X. eta 14 i s just anticipating and laying the foundation for a, "Hey, let us get a Chance , \ *-:<- ' ' '* '^7 '7 ;' . 7 _ `' 16 t o g o up in cade of. thst," But we ha v e t o g o t h r o u g h a n d f l n d this stuffy >7 '17.. and it's ln files ralatlng to othar lltigatlon. \ 7 i ; :' 7 Y i- \ 7 7 , , 7 c 7 i :"Y'. ^ v. *7 1/ 18 ^ ! 7 fHB COURT?,;Vm hxssu" 7 \ Y.'7 `M > *' . ` .: ` * -7 / . 19 ' MR. CBAVEN: It's "going to take one tine to, well, costly.tli&e, y; . - ,,'-7 :7 ^ ' ' - ` s i - 5.-; *. 1 v - ? ^ ` - , .y y -;: , y J . y/Y 20 *It'a" going to take stl*e. He .ill also present to the^'Court affidavits of " S J A * t`i 21 . thair lawyers .involved, identifying the litigation, the nature of the 7 ' '22 :23 investigating work dona by thc;consultants, and the reaaon for our flra y *'tV- \ hi, L; / ' ' " ^ 7 7 y . 7 bellaf la that lt'e not diacoverable. ; ' V ' ' * / ; 7 - ; v - r V / 7^7-^ /v 24 , '- ' THE COOICT: Fine, good: r ' y7Y^7 B A TO N N E,. N .J. 'O T 0 0 ' . i," * ' * ' ' ' ' ' 7 v! :-V . - ' ^ '' - .` `-- r > J- , i 1 ' " * ' i; ` jO .<V 81 .' - ,L > ' c;- r i- J > * ^ o;< - % n L' '- - ] HR. CRAVEN: Ho problem. I hav e a feeling that`you didn't say 2' yea you would give us-~ , : -:" -'V- . V, ` ^ ' ` r-J , ` - ^ L . t. 1 r ' ` ` ' '-7 - . 3 TBfi CODKTs N<v l didn't soy that. Well, do youhave anything 4 ' yeuwant to sayon that? . ...'1; [ -V -. J; ,,r ,. -r ^ L. . 5 MR^CARRv, No. 1;think you have toeee it firat, and obviously ' * fc >7"; i ' " ; fV *J ; i r v * / S"i ' ' ' ' ,, `' ' :' *1 ^ ** 2 ' * * 3 * ' .""s . w* >, * - *A V^ \ 6 no point ihargiiing whether ior not you should give them time, the Court 7.: already knows our;position. This^ is jan ongoing lawsuit. He can't juet ait \ i- ' ^ S ; f L ; > fr ^ ' i 1 ,, 7' , " ^ 8 around and wait for counsel to try. to stay parts of this caite.nr He have no uT -, ` jS ,,1 ^p ^4 ' ^ ? time for t^tCvWe-are rapidly(veil;1rapidlyV;vary slowly gettingto the 10 point ubere Plaintiff is goingtoret, and therewouldLnot be tice enough - 11 to go tip on any supervisory orders, end I know this Court le perfectly * 12 , ,, - -i, 'J V * L ' o -. ' -1 ! - ' -J ,, . ' J - ' '' r' - .` . " . .. .. capable of knowing what la discoverable and what ie not. t ^ 13 , . THE. COURT: Th problem with allowing the time for any appellate - a. i , . 1 j- - ' i j .. ' 14 procese to work has been In.the last few instances where it has cone up is 15 that things which should heve been produced in my opinion before la . 16 rasponee to other mtters are producfid at the lasc minute in the midst of . ;i7 their being relevant to what le at Issue while the production bee gone on, 18 while the in pernera inspection has gone on; and .then a request to haltJ ' " ' - 1 . y ' . > ` " ^ "V/' >'* ^ r ,f v, f>l" ` , r ' 'y* A ^ \ r l; ^ / r 1 v a***?- ' 19 . everything basically or halt the use of this ln order to allow an appellate 2 0 .* review by eupervieory order, or however to take place; nd the timing of It 21. especially in light of the fact that these materials were roepneive to ! b. 22 matter filed a long time before in which cntext would have been no ; , r - -- , *. ,, : . ' * ; - V; ,, , - r J1- . 23 ` practical problem, it baa reelly made it a problecj in the past. I have had . -v ' ^ ^ : . - ^ > ' . 24 ' situations, where. X hove ordered matters turned over, and X epecifically RENGAD CO, \ t i- 82 1 reaetiber Hr* Htinemsii once asking`me to hold up for ten days so they could . 2; decide whether to do that.or whatever* I can't Conoilt myself one way or 3 anotherV le.vhet X am trying to eay, end,It Juat depends, X.don't know what 4' " '5f ,6 ' 7 you ara producing to ma, and X haven't seen your arguments, I-haven't seen . r- r jV ^ i*1- / ^ S ^ ^ '{*r'.-i' - ' your,affidavits,; l arainot ;about;te. prejudge an argument or do-~I know t r, * 1/'w t t o i ;v - }A^t 'v'4>* / '* v .'/ -* ` 1 - .'v " f* . ,t 1 \, can't anticipate I am .going to say. ., L ^ J / / - .' V . - - - ',,< *: ` ' ^ & i :'<^VEH: ^l iui<w,;> of 'courBe,' that Jutice noldenhersh vill 8 recuse hlmaalf and if we try} to dovthls on an expedited basis, this would , - ,;,t. *_. /.*; `W'vX6^... : / r' : 1 L;S` ?*; put ma Into the position of golng to the none closest Judge. In the Supreme io.!r Court trying;to. get *tay. ' .; 'U 1 12'J 1* THE COURTt Oluiy. l didn't cttch that. ^ " 'jf ' ` ' `r *.V-4v, .r m v ^ %f ' L 'i > ,, 1 ;l- ^ HR* CRAVENi That's: what .1 was grinning at* , 13 ' THE COURT:. But I-will take your arguaenta Into consideration*; I 14 hopefully if X have learned .one thing,'lt' not to be sensitive about appealj> [. / ' X `i -- ` ` ./v, 15 . B u t l h a v e a n obligation, I think, clearly to See that thlslaweuit le ,r". ^ lT^ ;r4 .f XV m^~ % 'l"'r' , jV ^ '* ^ 1 v` v * ^ ^ r" . L 16 handled in.the just and expeditious and fair manner, and X am making all of FORM | L l I 4 B 17 - my decisions in accordance with that obligation of mine, and X will make/ U*1' , " \ z - * 18 ' any ;decision on tbie problem that you, pooed! with that same standard aa X 1? have In the post, and I wilihappily takeyour argument Into, consideratIon. a * ; r t ' 20 , X understand the poaltion you ere in* - / 21 :/ MR*..CRAVEN: And they;ate doing the; search as fast as they can ; "22, , 23f ;- * * THE;COURT: Great thank you* , v ** '` ' - * u L y- r , jp" -h'* f; ' 1 7* ^ i; ' m t1 `^ >. j ' > S - ,, ^ * 1 ( ." r cy --r * 1 :r, (The following proccedlnga wer held in opeh Court.), T '24 ^ \ - CONTINUED CLARIFICATION EXAMINATION .' P-'" i- "tiJ* ^ / t , . I- i - ; , - ) -> '/; > 83 1 BY HR. MBSGRAVB V. v 2 9 Hr, Pcrk. X think whenwe brokeve wera about to diacuts with 3 regard to Defendant/ 880 ths policy statement of the SPA regarding - 4 * 3ction. 8(e) # that section 'dealing w i t h `the nature and sources of inforaatlon '*' i : - j ": ; v. i w v - v r W * / / -v - 5/ which reaeonably eupporte the1conclusion of;substantial risk. And 1 want 6 to get into that/bufc.bsfore I do,! I ant to'direct your attention to 7 another section* the portion of the policy that .also deals with this f * S ;. J **:?* ; r: - subject of infcreation that-reasonably supports the conclusion of substantial 8 ?] risk. Directing your attention tothe! first page of the Exhibit, the/ 10 third column/paragraph that's numbered 3 there, do you see that?t - 11 i %L r- 12 . / .A . /Yes. . - "//' v / - / / / y ^ " 'v V-. . *' X /" -Vi- V-\v/ 1 v *'* ^ -'/'/ ,.v - . /' " / ',r Q , Does the EPA in there in connection with its, interpretation la any 13 ` way refer to vhat they interpret reasonably supports the conclusion to an? J N ri, - ///'/ \ - '/ ^ //-' / /,' ' ' ' - ,V 14 ^ , A Tee ^ it does elaborate on that a little bit. 15 ; 16 Q ^ What doos It say in that regard?/',1'/ - ^' , *r r " ' . ^ - j " ^^ , -iUi ` ^ 'i* .'^1 * ,, ' , J l M 'I'. * J \ u " I . nI P . V f> ,, ** .. h - * n *' J 1 11 P ' >' I . ^ r Lr ' v /A. Well I 'm lboking, !* skipping,a littie bit where it refers to 1, i ;n; - cotOTont.received and eoforth* or would youlike toe to reed that? ' J L/ ' .) , . v ,r / .. |-ir~' 'i./.v'/ , ; i 18 . : Q Da hffim." / ^ * ' -1 - .-'/ ' , /' 19 " /A Getting down, beginning about eight ;lines down in Item 3, "The , 20 a administrator agrees that Section 8(V.addresses Information that reaeohebly 21V supporte the conclusion of aubetential riek-'V And it hae/doleted the **mey V 22' suggestM provision but emphasiaea that "reaeonably cuppprte- the concluelon 23 ` of subetentlal risk Is not Identical'to e conclusive demonstration of 24 ` substantial risk.,it ,, FOR*!1 IL' 2 * B PEIYO A D C p ..J ';B A y O N N E , N . J . r'& T 0 0 2 > 1 - - r *: ' " -s - ^ ' j *"*-- - i vtiv - / * ' i ; - > - ,, 1 H R, ' J t1 , ' _ ^ ^ <>, 34 1, '' Q All right. So there;Is or was a deletion In their Interpretation 2; s that the Information that they:were talking about was.merely Information ' Jv cV / a . \ ; V;- . y ` V ' J- J - ^ \ ^ : . r ;, .3 ; that may Ruggast-rr* '^ `/ v '1'0' '^ V- .." u " -f, ,, ' ' r 4> That was the EPA'efirat proposal. The EPA then changed that to S. 5 : ' "reasonably supporta [the fc^luslon" *'- " v >,"?$;** v : ; *. v ^ v v * t - iV . : ' 1 ; . T " .. .` , . * - . r , ^ / 6 ,; Q All right* How, eo this substantial riot information that has .to `'> . w , ,,'iis \ *.r . t s - i T' ^ --. v , r` ' -. . . `f *'} t y * v ' - ' ^ 7* f M . . . ' - - ' / ' 7: be. reported ^ d e r Paragraph.rocurn nicaaral 6 on Pago 3, again* thatfa what . L, .8 ^ ` .'va werc starting to come^tb before, lunch* there Is e wtioie, section dealing ; - O ; f j ! . . i ' ^ ' ", ;.": . ' - '., . - - 9 with the BPAf* interpratation of what Informtion, whet lo the nature and. ; ;io- > Source'of that infonaatlon vhich reasonably supporta the conclusion of - -7 - VJ " < \ ^i '' *, . V 't > " ' -J . ^n - ^^ .. J i? jV , 1 ' x. . - , * r , *''! ^ ! . -k p " |^ - _ H, r ^ 1 - 11\->. ;substantial risk# is thero.nbt5 air? / ; i7-' > . vJ,' 12 '"1 ',v../ A .. Yest there is* ,.X .';r`; ;/ '." - r N :J , /^E ^^ - ' A V / r _v rP` " -^ " ' -v * ' ,,^ t ). r ^ >H i , ^ ,_=` - - \^ 13 ' ^ .Q And 1 note ttwtkthere;are two categories that are described* and 14 ..ab ehueerateidr one imd tw in there, do you'sec those? r '15 J /> -s 16. \L 17 ` K\' ^ , <- 1819" ' f 1 A Tee* Q And up are new'in the middle coluan of this page, are we.not? tt , t,,, t , ' V.' ' . . * -1 ' * d' , < 1* . .. t 1 `` ' < f 1 r` A Yee# r ..V r.^ ' ^ `-r ,v ; . '* 'y e \ '> ' Q And tha first eategory is entitled whGtp sir? > . ' ' fj * \. s / 4 ^r. / `- 1 L "A J 'j * '\ 1 *r ., i. '-r ` ^ ^ , i ; - * * i - , , r 't ' 'A Bealgned controlled oeudiee. j pj 20'v. Q And'it reads as follows*.does It* "In necossiag tha quality;of 21 inforaatloa, the respondent is to conalder whether It containa reliable 22-;1 evidence ascribing"the,effect the chemical*'is that what it states?; 23 ^ 24 -' .A . 7' Q That's correct. v ' ;>' u<\ ,- n-`- ' t l - . 1^^ ^ 3j-' , ~a-- _ . i \ - ^ .J ,> ' ^ P- 4v , 1 ' t . > .J .' S'- And then It;statcet ,,Not only chould finnl result from such ; ' r `'v /J I -TV . S n , ^ ' , 65 1 ttudlss be raported, but alsoprelioinary reaults from incomplete tudis ' r "/ ` t 2, were appropriate," is that correct? , r*( t.._ . : Jf ' . 3 .\A " Sights that's correct* L- - " i \ r r\j \ ' ''<?' - ' 4. , Q l .Row,,'! the languagethere talking about reporting studio? X ' ,-f ` *;,->* ; , + ,, > ? , V v , h^ w ' T w i ' -. - - V . * ' ^ -- 5 that the infornstion that you read-- that tobe,referring to? Ui h I* M - 'V " - " 6 '' A > ThatS correct it9s lufoxisatiba obtained through studio. j 7 \ / Q In facts the otxtvaentenco aays. ^ljesigncd controlledstudiee ; . \ >j i t n L i * ,> < iM> \i ^ k_ ; -> * - * i- , * t f \< , i.v' . L-> ^' 8 H include** and than it talks'about or refers to four different type of " ' V - : - ^ / ;; - . /-` V -' ;t ' 9 "designed controlled s t u d i e s ? ^ ; - \ v' . 10 A "T^tTo dotrect* Vt' v ' ' \ r i . Q S o l.thatra one typo of information they are saying it you have' that 12L aupporta the conclusion of substantial risk you must report; is that correct[? , w. ; 1- -- v . 1 13' v r'r"'iA- That,ai correct* V > - L;. 14 Q Hoython, Itam 2 Paragraph 2 under this roaan nuineraX7, would JS ; 16.; you read to u whet the caption of that la or the eubceptlon? " - ' , , , , _ ^ , 1j r i . 1 ^ ,v , ' J -; , ; . ' t ' '' r' - * ' A _ The second category is titled `'Reporta concerning and atudie* 17 ; of undaiigned uncontroilcd c i r c u m s t a n c e . 18 ' f ,' 1 ,, Q -,,l ^ v <b : 1 1. .f . * ', " - * il ', The distinction between designed and controlled in one above now 19 T>` J, , k' ' ; '"viv . -.f' bwa are talking about undeaighed and uncontrolled circumstances ; ia that righft? 20 " A ./hatla correct. ; -L.' . `i1^--' ; J,i` _ -f.t ,-> ^ - 21 Q And`the language throj I direct your attentlon tb the last 22 antance in thec column. -It starts "In addition,"^you see that sir? 23 * 24' 'C- 1 ^ .. 5 * *" - Q - 1 - i .f. * tm p. L [i " m ' ^ " .r , L ' ' * t* * r ;r. . / i^ ',1` . J " * /- . ' ' . , . i y. ' >A ' -1 ,, - __ 1_ . And it states nXn additioh, It.ls: .possible that effects leas * *' S ? tav . ' J t s"v / ", " t` is i: 'V * '.i.j. .1\ v v*% S .* ?-L"'V .V J r / L` . ;, r 66 :/; ' v ' k k & l`,? % '-""-j - % v f ^ -'v ik i .`W . - .- ,,. , . 1 ' serious ttam ibotu described In prt5(e) end thoso ore the eneo wo talked ,^ % *' ; j( > ' - X ' L J i i s , i , " ^ v- ~i .f ,,. , a ^ 2 , bout earl1er ere they noti ., J :":A- ` -Vee^; ? v `" V - V ' ' %* , V ' 1 u . -, ! ' ,' - - r ', <, j\ % i. - , 1. 4/'J Q. lrthdefects^dsath, cancer, thlngsllk that, It says, ,4taay be ^ ' .;1.','? '' -`-v.i.,1' , ' '. "` "- J , t*; ", L' j . tj yi ^ h , * k. i ^ , *< ' 5 . : preltntoery Mn^MUtlohi of the more erleu effects end together with /-% f; - V-.; ' -1*; . '6;,. another triggering pice f.Information const!tte reportable Information,** s. L "L - ; *'! . '7 \ tien they give nexaopl of;that* do they not, Ir? :" / -, r ,, `'^'V .` ; I - ,u Yes* 'r?r 9-:, d Ami would you read that example to us? -r.1%V ` ` ;; A "An example wouldrhe a group of exposed Workers exparlenclng c/t" - 'V'' A -V- -- '"?r< - \ 11 dtsalness dwnonstratlfig neurologleal dlsfunctifons." ; % , J' ' , 12 - ^ In thls Paragraph 2 under roman'fntaerai 7 dealIhg with - y ^ tL 13 ; imcpntrolled ami undeIgned tudlet, ere.they again talking about report!ng r ' *" V y V ' x* '/ ^ . y >r 'r' 'L'r- - t -7* " L '+ T4 /: '` F * 1 6 T. , ' _ J >- , -1 '^ ^ 1 ^ ' .* u 4 effect that ere observedin uncontrolled or undesigned studies; Is that rs / hew you'reed that, att?;` ''l' - - . i k/ ' J;L,'' %"j- w / ^ ^ .. s - v *` . , ' V`,. ,' , / /`-.J 7 1"' ' -r;!. - '> ' ; - 16 vV A -Yesv;..-S;think t M , conclusion,of this Sectionr2 ofB or Subsection,2 '* t -, o J . 17%; of'SectIon 6 describes whet'duW.vbe Includedln the wdaslgned uncontrolled J ' * :, . ; - ;% + ." '.r 18 circumstances. . '.:V ^ '* l- ' . ' \ ;: - c *<1, 19 Q 'Infect, et the'end there,,they"state.that In the end of Subparagraph .4 v. 20 ; , 2 under romm msierel 7 there, they stete* "Reports'and | m reading now '/I'?'J 21; > h. ' free the tpp.of tha third coluran on thet page, tbs first full paragraph, 22 "Reports and studles of.undesgned cIfeuestances 1he1ude.V end then,they 2 3 V state nedIcel end heelth surveys,leiliticai studia, reports concern evidence '\ t.y ' f-,,,*-f" V ^ .. 24 j ; J, - V * " ' ` ' a tp - r' "* , - " , 1 of effects In consumers, workers,or ln the environment. `n' ` ^ f ,- 1 .'N,.. * , **"'i**" fC " 'vjesy tf 4 >' i '._ y "y y L- 7 " ^';V ' ' '^u^ T ,-t,*i '.-t>k. 1* .t L'A ' * ,/^ iA ilV,Tl"v.'-.-'-i V- A \ . .y - i.1i. .- '' J ` a V ", - " .'?, J " 1 v 'A !. 1 Vl-,<of7.^^,,-.J r1`/-s,s - y *1. L. '`/!]- ^tv'-'f4i/.f- \' ' l^ . L, O- *"-f" '2 ^ Q Thasa:ara:thfngs that you roght obsarva s affaets, than? 3 . ...- Thit's^rfit. ' ::. V 4 / ;;-a 1And that would haInformation that ifyou concludtd U iuntiitfy ; j'- . ' l. . . ;. . y *V,'yv'/'" ,, > . . V ^ V a * ' ' -y 5 ', or s tha lansuaga If Itas Information whlch raascnabfy supported tha . 1 1 r * * * 'p * 1 ' < ; ; rj . ^1 ^ ' f.* \K * , - , , , t .* ` S' - .6 . conclusIon that your partIcular product chemteaf, or mlxtur tharaof -'7 " prsantd a substantlat rliH, that that would ba:tha klnd offnfoncatlon ' - - % 1J 8 ,, puan thoughlt kaftn't a contfpllad study but yat an tincentrolfad study that 1-J-T-' "r, ^ - r'" J *-* V' ~ X 'r f`- , ' * -* ~ x '* y r/ 1 r. \ v ,1 . ? \ you wwld bava,to raport. sX ; X .y - > *'a .a *^/V . .:*` a y-- , ' a -.,> . v 1 y :V rV, y 10 ; . ...-'A. \ \ y r y / y y '':/' -;X y y y . - ".y^ 11 M/ l3y Q , * . ''" Sut in M . F* V " , . .Instants :f>ra thtdar/mnan nunaral 7* thay ara ,; ' ! , - ,k t t * ,, ; . ' -*. ' / VJ i -i " * J- *, ' . L' t i r T . i > >' ' i* ' * T u tr / `y - - # _ lJ ; * " ^ 1 " v r s -i H -_*** talklng atxmt ta typa of obtarvatlon pf haalth effaett or atudlas of ^ vd i . ` j' -V *.*d .f_ V . .'*' -- j ^ * '.j .f - haalth affactii ara tlw npt* slr - "'t;; vi > 14. , That1* rlit:; ."` ''-i 1 ''' > / ; ^-V;^ -y* ' / . y- 15 , " Q : la thpna nywhro In Parogroph roman mataral*6 hsre whre the 16. ^ rfar ta r^rtIng content* of a tank cor or contants of a ehanlca!7 : - , y * - > '.`v-i ,,-y -'v: -v - - /, ':;r. . ' ''^ ^ ;;-yy . i' - <i'-/''' v 1jT ' ' A . No '.sX ^ y, - \^ " " l - L' , T:' J ' ^ H *" j ^ ^>-i v ^ v * ' " 4. * - 1 t L, ' Q No^t von gotng furtkar Intothls polIcy, Hr. fark, roman numral, BAYO N NE. -N .J. 07001 `19 7* tbm nwt major pairagraph taiks abmit Informtton Whlch naad not ha , ,, .^ ''r^ v ` ' ' " ,,' , -l ^^ . . J - *. l . i--- -20 . raportad dots It not, slrf---^yy- - /"^{ y/ ' ''.y 21 * 22 . 1 - - ;v A Y# It dois n .. v L-; 'Si.. ' ` , L1^ Ti>L1 d ; Nom, tt(s gbt than Subparagraph , B9 Cv Ot and v ond opacifias ':23 dlffarant typat of Information idoii lt not? \L .-24J, ^ , Vto. '` * ,jj K r '; T i* ." - ..r - - .- ; . U '^ & *} > - . > r > ;/ \ -i\ u ;- W . .A :;-' - * : . ' . . / / V ' * * . ," ; -: v " : . :' . ' < .r. 88 V; 1 v 1 -Q . And;In each Instance,sir wellr.let's just take one as an , 2/ ' cample Subparagraph C. It says Information need not be reported, than 3 going to,C has been published In sclentlffc litarature and referenced by - V `` '. ' / , . \ 4 ; ; the following abstract services/;,And than It lists a bunch of those does `5 , ^ It not? *\ k ' v ' - - r \ u !" V - V ' i >:. ' * v ', ' ^ - ' V r. ~ j` ^ - *v 6 Y e t.\ .v ' /: v - ,1 "7',- .. Q And so there SubparagraphC, Is It talklng about ^ubUshed ' '/'' c'-- ' ' tV` - v ' - / /,./; ,. ` ' - *,' ' -,r ; ' V ' ' *. ,,/ " J - * Information' literature regarding studies or health effects observed,or . '9 studied? / s ,t __ ' / .'*1'/v". /V/"/'; <2'- ' v-f ^ . 1 0 , ';s A Y e s : / ' ; -P/ i-- , - *s\ V '/- -1/ r1 -L: <, * **.' ^^ l i ,Q And.for Instenet Sul^aragraph 0 Again, It says It need hot be * ,> ' s ... J- ' ' / V . - . . : . / , r . ' /* 1 . "/ - f ' 2 reported,If It Is corroborative woll-astab11shad adverse affects already P- J ' V "> V , U^ ' ^ -i ' i- V,. " Z1 , J f/ ^ v ! y L L 1. c. ( Jt- ,, i - f '1 13 y - ; . - j ^ . <- documented \ /:-= 1 t . , * * ,-> In:the sclentIfie 11tarature and s` t - * . , . k ; referenced as describe! , In C . ' 14 above, does. It not, sir? , *- V , -hl 15 V ' A 1' 'Yes*., ' ;; r;j / .v :sv \ ; : /- ,-/!"" . . . ... 1.: 1v 16 : :Q And thin It says unless:such Information concerno emergency . ; , -, : \ - r. ' ^ ! J : ; .: / ^ ' -'/ J. - - 17 ^ Incidents of environmental contamination ! descrlb! In part S(c) that's 18 ' -' v - ;v , / / ' ' /' . ; wha^i you have an environmentsl sp11I typa tylng? .. ,i* 19 -- /A' Yas. ; I"- *' ' *" * ^ * 1 20 ' ` - I ./> - (i But e$aIh It*s talking.about InformatIon of adverse.,effects atree^iy ,, j > tT V , . . > J_ ' 21 / * documented$ Isn't that right? *'22; _, ^ 23 - , A That*S'correct ^ 4 ?* >. . r ., " v^p. *> , . 4 ' 'l 1 * 3 1 Q Is there any place In Paragraph reman numeral 7 where "they talk 24V / . about Information that need not'be reported where again tlwr Is eny refarahbe \ ,i - - i .^ - , -:1r . , , i - * v -K- l v:; ` <w' r v- i . - " ' O ' i ' '' ^ ' \ 1 i < ' ; . ,, ' 1 ` r' , ` V ;" ^ . - .v ,,.vvV. ;.v ,i b ` t irl r " 1 hI * J j,!\ n i.^r i1 ' ' ^ ' .v 1 */ J * 1 ' ' r -1 to a raportIn0 raqulraiseni <33 to tha coatant of tank eer-at.to tho ffitk-i|p L- . ,,\ ` ; . 1 V -^VV ' ' 2 H "" r ,i1 T ^V * ^ * ' 4 ^ V,, ^ I^ J- of tha ttnkcarer hat klnd of Chemicals aro In thara ortqmethlng of that 3. natura? *' -- " -V ' r;*' ; v i'. ''.r-- 4 . v A' Ko, ft doasnt;.apptar;to h. - .- , ' ' _ /*'* '1` v. ' `:C>vL:'"* 5; r 'Q Kow, Wr*'Park If than In essestIng Situation ona hat to 6 sahttntlal rttk tnformatloh, hat no Information In tholr postattlon whlch V * raasohabty ti^ortt tha conclusin that a parttcuIar product pratantt a , ^8, " ahhatantiat rltk thay than afajthay than raqulrad er tot raqulrad to '9 ' .,*J-.'i-. /"r'.`r :*J - '` '.... .` ... " ;. -.. .' -, ' - -1"1' V- ' i ' ' ' maka a raportfng untfar Sactle 8 (e) at ypu Intcrprot !t? : . [ . ,`' 10 t"' . A If thay haya no Inftmatlh ImSIcatlng a tubttntlal rltk thara ^ . . . , ' . J i- ''. ; " i 1" - c v. " r tj r ' j L. , r ^ 'T , ' i ` - rr; v . ,k . i. . ' J - . j -* s lt.I t woold not baan B(a) raportIng Obligation r ^ / ;1 ^ Jf ` S* i *j h ^^ *' ' m T *" *. ^ ` " .. "'' " V.f." , V J- , . ' -.-V t .ri ' . . ` \ `12" J''.Q ,And If thay hava auch Information hut thay knm that tha EPA It , 13 Iready are of'that InfomstIon of thota wlvorsa affoctt froa that ( '" 21 ^1 -^ ^, * y\. ^ % - 1 ,. ' ,. ' . ^ , ' L, ^^ t r ^ Tr ? 14 part1ctilr eaaleei at ii] 81 cor^otad than do thay haya to;rport Itf 15 - A lio thah thara Is o:raportIng ohlIgtIon. . 16 ' :Q. :New 5t thara any placo tn thl* entlro pollcy ttatement tlr whera ' *, *' s' i, > - V1, `. 2- >1 l1 - , 1 t --.'h i _ rJ- K t tb , - r, i' ^ r 17 . thare It any rafaraea to.th Infomatlon that tha PA Is taIking about tN J'. ' / y `jr;:j '//; 1 :vV''V ` :v ` 18J statuta It tlklng about jt thara;any>afaranee whera Information ft uted 19 .f ;I tha conttkt of raquiring tha .raportIng of th choeat contenta of tha - 20 tank car a oppostd to tha haaith affctt that ara bellavad to coma fron ti 'f " 21 ' particular Chemical? C ". ; 22 S A,,' No refarenca. ^-' 23. 4 . hoa Hr* Ca*r ^d>wi or put\upfm thlt Plalntlff* hbft 1298 24'- thiMa various faetort eotldaratidt that yo had mantloinad:ln;your.tattle^y 24 0 BAVNNE, N ;J.' 07002 .- f> r-/" n i v -. : r- i . ; ; , ' , I i w ^ y - C ; :- ' 1 :\ . ... V* I, yX f- . , ; v - `- ./ ; t ;V* -/ -* \... " 1, ' . 1.. And the first one that: you Indicate was must be produced,by a party ; 2:\ considering nttfleetton1forC ccenorcla) purpose end,I think everyone 3 understamiswbat that means It Isa product'that1a actually going out . ^ :V V . ' -' ' 1 ` -* Into ccrnnerco; Is M correct? r. '-fj,. 5 r A __ Yeehp l thlnk the Wording I* I tried to point out earlier when rv . ' \j, -.'J, , r 7 *V " \ l, ' . ^ ,,, . 1 t fi - . ,j ' \ r 6 > St ca&e out Ir llttl bit wit efsync, but Item l means >the party 7-. considering notification must hi'producing the .chemical for a camrctt -i; . v -r ' -'r r V purpose. '>/ - ' 1 y.ir*'-,' s J'L. y -y y j y y Y% ^ y. * y : , V , y '- ,;y y , y , - - 9 y . (T Tho party that ts looklng at lt to determlrHi whathcr or not they *j 1 should notify must be producing product that goes; Into cenirerce? - ;//;; ^ lb : ' l'; A y y . . * ; * ; y ; ' \ ^ y - `X `V- y y'". y -;i- `^ 12 . k ' / jWn^^2 Ir eiut be evidence chemical presents substantial risk of ` - ` V *- r - .r f '. - = . i: ^ t ^^ 13 . Injury to Health and when you use the word evidence were you talktng L i4. ; 15 > 16 about whet? '^ t r, 7 1. r t ' 3 1 i 1 1 *V ^ t ^ ry p LS r - ^ ^ . i. h ^ A :neatly, It's Information. There must be Information which ; 1 " / -j ! / ' V , ': j S^-' reasonably supports th conclusion that the chemical presents a substentlal 17 h*> 18;;' risk of Injury to the hea1th of thenvIfonment. ., ;, !l , * 1 i j - 1 , -i' * ' - ' t 't \ i L ' n f , . *- - , ; Q 'That Is the mixture of ehcmlcets that youlore'looking at In ::i - . y 'V .? -''./ / ; ,lt* - , " . 19: that particular-Instance? :'v H-' Cf. , ' C >-L , v '*~ V" ' j' 20, ' A * -Yes. ' l ' ,I7' 21- V ' ,1 /"17 71 Q. And then you told him the PA oust not already been aware of It ....1 2 2 - end lfc In thla cese would be that 1nfofTaetIon that you hevewhlchreasonebly 23.. 1' supports the conclusion that the ehemlcel or the mixture does present a sub 24 r stantlal risk of Injury to health or the environment?. -j i.. > . L - t - - . .. i.. - r:'~' ? - ', /*- m >:* - v.-7 ?* i *i... v , i `` L * ^ ! v ;y c t'^ - . / : * . - r - ' ;v -- ."i ^ \* V * 92 1 at the level of the TCDD? 2 A I think we were really considering whether the DIcMbropHsnol 3 with whatever TCOD may have keen contained m Indicated by these samples 4 would present a substantial risk of Injury 5 ft And In feet you conclude do you not In Paragraph k that the '1 1 i r ' ** A 6 ' extremely low levels of TCCD found In the Otchlorophenol particularly if * i t{ 7 with further dilution diluted by easterners1 operations would be unlikely 8 to cause any health or environmental hazards? .1 x 9 : A Yes'* 10 . i ^1 i* ( J Q So you wore looking at the entire chemical end looking at the 11 levels within the chemical? 12 A Yes* 13 ftThe levels of TCDD? i 14 .A Yes* 15' j '- !i - , L [ ' :\ \-L.; , . .' ft How; did you consider at this January 7 nr January 6 1981 meetlrjg 16 after you considered the levels that ware there whether you had any b1 *1 i i *1 * ** , .t 17 Infomatlon such as we have Just talked about as described In the policy 1 , -- * ii 18 i i 1 * 1t statement whether you had any such Infomatlon that from which you can 19 reasonably conclude that TCDD at that level would present a substantial 'l 20 risk of Injury to health or the environment?, . 21 .A Well 8 note a sentence In the end of the fourth,paragraph* 22 ft All right sir* 23 ' A Says "Ho attendee at the subject meeting was aware of any ham 24 which has been caused to health or the environment as a result of the trace *. i j-j ' ^ > -i ' J*1 i * ' 1', x - . *t i ,,* ,,v f ** , jt ' N x', . I-' 93 amount of TCD0 present In Dlchtpropheno!' .' . r ,, Q You obviously bail no studies that said that TGD& at that level . .-t 1'V'J w.-,.!: w," o : r.; c rs.^;> > ',..i :' c2 In that product was going to cause substantial or presented substantial risk of Injury to health of the envlrercaent you had no studies? *A, Ho m did not.. i` Q But ns we pointed out, Or. Parl:y3xcu3Q no now Mr. Park now V n doing tt^fcha type of Information that the policy talks about untiestgiied - U - V.* 1 . - - and uncontrolled circumstances that would be cbservatlons of health efTfects;- " r- * i i Is that correct? r * m* . . *.* / ' ^- tP . . . < - k . i *. V . 1;0j *.A .-Yes that'ws' ^rirghty. .-;u to .*v. ;.*-v2 t.r-',.i,' -`Ciro 1i1; Q And there was review &&de them to so whether you had any such 1j2, Infonaatipn from observation of 3th effects; Isn't.,that^correct? 13 A Yes. 14 Q, Utte9 Ilkewtse with ths Hay 11 and the Hay 22 meetings th 1979: 15 on 2k*Dtchlorophenol Plaintiff's Exhibit 1275 do you have that one up 16 there. Ir? y i . y ,. ;...; .... . A I don't believe 8 do* .1f7 , , s ?, y y. . :/ .O " . * \ * y - - y , . f ? J i , y y_ y y , y _ \ , , ` t ' - " . fg Q. There's 1275' This Is ycxir mcaorcndura dctod June 6 1979 and 19 refers to two nsoctings on on Hay 11 and on on Hay 22 ami this was the i `J 20 3{e) roeetlng whar you considered as 3 recall 246~Tr!ch!orbph*no1 In . ,'i '.y:.* y ".? `.rrj# 21 the 2k-DIchIorpphnoI, and wltethar that constItut*d a reportable Item If 22 you will under SectIon 3(e)? 23 A Yes. ::.Vyyy . 24 Q ,And th thrust of ths second I should say wall I don't think 07002 ''FO R M ILV 2 4 B 96 v^ ^' , ,, j' 1 the first masting; la that ripbt? . ^ '**' ' ; * i '11.'V " -,1 'o 1 i 2 ' A.. That's right. And^thla/resultcd from the, a notice in the Federal .f;-.iir>v *"J '. \ 3j,,. 1 ^-^ j i-v, , ^ , t` i * ' . i . * "( ~ V: , , -v 3 Ragiotar;about-this/ this;study which had been done by the National Cancer 4 Institute, butit was,.lust;like'a brief/reference in the Federal Register, - ^' i f~z \ *?l>'*,'t.t y \ /- v'- , ' >'v, -*1/'/t-;i/'-v v: N- .f` . 5 the entire study had not been put into the Federal Regiator* So at the May 6 14 netting itr^flfo ifelt.Jthat fthe" entire study in fairness, because when, - something la condensed down or there la a brief .summary of omcthing, It J7 8' ' is fait something night'have been omitted ,,.So ;lt'concluded that in fairness ,9 . th entire, study should be obtained, and should be reviewed and that the ^ / ; / / .J'V. ' > / V /- '///r* ^ /./ / ;i. . 10 ' 'tsoaeing would;be reconvenedRafter It had been accomplished*. ,k . * -* f'1 * ' * -*., 1i c ">' ^ * ' U ' * i 1 i % j ' l, j I- .. ,,' 1k _ * L " * ,- , * M / Q ', All tight. And then hr* Fagot was asked to look at the study in., 12 detail? ;'-- v , " 'Y /' ' /*; /.l ; J.//"'* -/ 13 A that*o right. .The study was obtained and was reviewed by Dr. Fge^. 14 Q . But'pending a review^of this'information which had now crne to your attention/ did you not also,at.this coraaitteemeeting on Hay 11 ; 15 16, determine any other Information that would be reportableinformation under 17. Section 8(e), that would beinfonaation that reasonably supported the ;, "r' "l- ' ,L> '/Ji" it-..' _ .1 18 ; conclusion that there was a subotantlai. risk Of ^Injury to health r Che '.. - ..*; ;<vv / /.../'/;?. ;... ^ / ../;>'/> _ 'L.: ,.v// * * 19 onviromaant as a result of the levels-of 2t4TTriehlrophenol and 2-,4-Dichlorj" , +' c 20. phenol?', / /( .5 '/ /V ` RENGAD C O ., SA V O N N E/ N .J, 21 . A .Yes* Brparienca with the product itself was considered and it r 22', .was pointed out that although it bad been lh use for many yeare, at.least 23; forty,years, according/to the<memprenduE, chare were no kuown hcalth affects S:, ' ` 1r r^ * 1//J ^` 24v ' -advr erse heal"thr- effects to1 * hJ rewalvt* h or, - th1e envi^ronment. *^ ^tl ir^L ^ '-^*u" 97 1 Q So from the obaervetlona that thosepresent were aware of or had _ y ' \ ; - 2' , . made theaseives;therejwere>noiInfdtnatioa from those observations as to 3 adverse health.effects ouch asdescribed)under,8(a) policy that would '" *4*1 - ' C . . , r` Y : / & ' 'i* - r 4 constitute under/that policy Injany Wy".substantial risk?' 5' c. ;`A ' That'g'-xorrect.rri'ii,-'^^!'* i-i,r> V-f 1' * '* vY r-^' , Y r.Y^ / . ,L. .6 , Q And.that is the type of informationbeliave ve talked about ,7 before that the policy seems to be talking about In Section reman numeral. 8 6 under Subparagraph 2?; >, . v 9;. ' A "Tea.;' ' j > .v _ -- t- ,, *[- id; i Q A H right. So then you reconvened on May 22, had the..report .from, *>-< ,.}V " ' 'v-.-.i. . ' \\ ` .. :> .- V ' '> ` : * / V _- ." ' /! ; ' 1" 1'f ; \ , - ' ` n Dr Paget as to his review of this Information, and the conclusion then ^ , ' y ' ,. **""-V1'&%* . n ;1-k< \ '* ," *; .r- . ,r 12, ; at the end of both of these .mcetinga or the etid of the May 22 meeting was 13 that thara was ho infornatiop to report, it waa not a reportable item? ' ' ` K rF - ^V *' - , rfc \ ' " ' 1 V*| " ' 1d ^ ^ *1 i 14 ';A_-1: That* right* ^ \ ` ! : - .'***' 1' ^ . . }r^ 15 '; Q In fact*, sir your June 6fch raemo* the one that reports on both of 16 c these raeetings, Plaintiff *o Exhibit, 12759 you state at the bottom of it as 17 Hr; Carr baa already covered with you the conclusions and recocaendationB , .V - ` ;s ;r ' -J -L ` - V- 18 and the first\,number under that reads aa followa, doea lt not^ ^The inform- 1.9' ^ "H i * ^ " t. 1 ^ 'li' l ' ^^ ^ ^ ^^ ` >" l I j Ir A * , - J 'S<' f ' . JT r '" . J, ., ^ - 1 S /: i" r 1' 4 v. ' - ' k1 I^ ation evaluated doesn o t reasonably support the conclusion that 2,4-Dichloro 20 phenol produced and marketed by Honsonto presents a substential risk of 21 Injury to health or the envlrotEaent?? 22r. 23 , A That's correct* r -'C-, . *` '. v/-c ' Q So you were evaluating; that inforraation to see if it was reportablji 24 . inf*ormation* were you n*oFt, sirL^?'syi'J t V f ' .*' Ti ` PENCAD * C O .B A Y O N N E ,- N .J, I ; ' ' ` 1 A tte*; `^ -r \ >2 Q } r"Nowy -'do -you'.'haW^up. -thereMr Park, Plaintiff1* Exhibit 1298; , : V ' ' ^ y ;` > J l . - . T v / ^ . :.J ' -V ' ' . ' - 3 that vouldbe the DQces33ber.i4,? 1981v8(G)ineeting? v, . v 4, a . itytf.VitoV- m M j u M . ---*" /. , > \ -. - -'V 1V * , '- i n' ^ 'L-d 1U t '**i 5: ` ` ,Q All-right .;-1st ie,bc'eure\X!ve got it. Nov, that le another one N , , , ' L-f-'t ? > '-'isV * ` \ , / ,: 6 of the 8(e) meetings that Hr. Carr has,questioned you about, and1this oneJ - ,7'" dealt with again 2,4-Dichlorophenol, but this tic you were ,looking ,a t , 8 ' the chloricateddibeneofiurans; le that.right; .sir?. , 9 ' " `/'Vi, ;:;;^^iB-right^ - ^;V\ '; 10 ; Q Nov, wae there any: study that thegroup wi$ looking a t i n this 11 instance to determine if it'constituted* substantial risk information as 12 ' described in-the EPA poliey statement that; ahould herreported? . ` v 13 ' ^ A This was not renllya efcudy indicating health effects. 14 Q All right. Soi^one had requested this, 8(e) meeting because o f . ' 15 'the .presence-offL.the dibenzofurcns?: 'r-'T \ s :::: 16 ` A - -.Yea.''- . 'r * ~ v*. 1 J; - , tmmi <' *t VrJ , 1 ^ `( V- , ` ' 1l *" ** *V * * ' % ; *' ^ 1 ' ' - ' * ^ LJ 1 * v. t^ ^1 1 n , Q- : And the group met and didn't the group determine If It had shy. is ; information fron vhich one could reasonably or which would-reasonably ' 19 , support the conclusion^ that the,,level of ,dlbenzofurana ln the 2,4-Dichloro- ' ' ' . . :* * . 7 - w ; , r. y - ^ t (n -/ , , ' /. 20 . phenol presented a subetantial risk of injury to health or ^the environment? 21 .> *22 " , A' ' * * f" ' 8(e), Mr. It waa concluded that;notificatlon was not. required,by Section ' *, 1 - t.. * i - > i '' J * , -v ' ' 1, i '- ">'< -*-*. `' i ^, * 'v v 'L h I-* r ( rS ^ 'l /" k ! - , ^ r ~ * *^ * J. - ' j1' u , ^ 'J r' n * . - - h\ - ^\ - 1- Muogravo. ]y ^ `^ v^; v . " t 4- . 23 Q 1``Yeai \ " ` - . -v, .24 A Thle 1298, though, is not tho fihal ainutee of that meeting. . ' ' r 99 1 Q That' correct* sir. We larked earlier, didn't ve*\ the final * <\i\ p fiV jV* A 1/,-r ' :VC`' : ' .; 2 'on- es a>ft:e~err''thhe:c:o' 1cLr, rbercrtieoenst?i o n a T ' ^ v.'Ci . J" ' 3 A Hcay.-V;- -7V `i:K : A r i ? ' . -. -.. ?..*. V.. y*r{'OA, *-_>if., ,vV-->/ .--4-' 7`.-fi > 1- ^.' -*'.<. . - 4 Q Co you Have that Defendant's 882. there, I believe? 5* "A ' Yebi^dbr;".? 7/fUi r C ^ ' T ` ,'6 ,Q 1 All right. Let'elook at that. -Those are the. final minutes after r* 7 you had the people, with the expertise and the. toxicology and what have you k review thea; isn't, that right,?|sir? L 9 ",A That's right. ,. V ..'- - 10 Q And ia there a diecuaoion nt all in thoae minutes about consideration 11 of whether you had any information that.constituted aubetantial risk inform** 12 atlon.as we've, talked.about In.this policy statement? ' . ' . - s , .. . - 13 cA There la no discussion of a study indicating adverse, health effect^ 14 ' Q But there are references to information* are there hot* sir? " "' > .,:7 " '-L1" v` -77 15 ..A ^ Yesi, V . ' V ^ 7 . ; , . :*/;/' ^ ^ \. _,: ,, r-* 16 Q y As an example, in .the. third paragraph* does it not say, the 17 second' sentence starting there*' ,fThe limited Information available generally 18. supports the conclusion that the acute toxicity of CDF is approximately an 19 order of magnitude less than the acute toxicity of chlorinated dlben2odioxln^"? 20 A' Tea. 1 '' . ^ 21 Q Also*:It was noted that no 2* 3, 7, 8 dlbenaofurane were'found 22 in the 2,4-Dlchlorophenol? * > \ 7;' ^* v: - ...{ J Y - . Y -7 23 A ' Yes, .77 7 ; 7.v\7'. ^.7 ' V, \ ;-7' 1* ** ''* ' 24 Q And. then does it not-state levels of up to 100 ppb. 2, 3* 7* 8 PENGO CO. ' *L. 100 .. v # -vO -/tv u: V > ' 1 tetrechlorodio,'x1lnth-a.vte>b>een\,\b.e*l.ij eLvved, to>\be.a,f--elavais by some toxicologists 2 for 2,4,5-T ?."v'jj '-<.- iP.-'" /,' '*- : * f ' ' 3 \ f - iT^v i : v'/v -v* ''; 4 Q St<a.-t' es then further, `'r r ft { * ,F jf A FCBs containing ; ' ' 'C M ' ' ' CDF as L, Impurities , have been V-: i i-u V A;'-1,*<4 . ^ -... 5 extensively studied? 6 . ^ : A.,, Yes,. '} ^ \ ' . ` 7 -Q V- A racent review of the extensive data on PCBe healed to the 8 conclusion that there are no significant human health hazards:from low 9 exposures isn't that right? : ..'- r . v10 * S,A'. That's correct;*. .< > :v; r 11. Q . So you reviewed.what Information you did have and ;concluded, let 12 me oek you, did you:conclude-that you had.no information which reasonably, 13 supported the conclusion that the level of dlbenzofurans In your 2;4-Dlehlor^- i 1 h1 v * "* _ > - r 14 phenol.presented a substantial risk of injury, to the health or environment? 15 A ThaVs correct. We had no information. L. 16 Q So you had no Information, It was a,non-report natter under.8(e)? 17 .1 'A' -That's-.right.1 '*' - ", 1 ` . 4,4 18 :Q .. So .Mr. Park, In all of-these18(e)'meetings- Mr. Carr has had you 19 refer to, has there not been consideration .of- either studies or information, 20 do we have Inforraatlon that supportas conclusion that reasonably supports 21 the conclusion that there Is some advene health effect that.constitutes,a' ^. - j - at . ; " .= " ' y. v / : . . , '" _< 22. substantial risk with this product end the various.constituents In it? ' - `V ,J - * f" '' ,. " ^ . Si ' ' . . , 1 ^ ^ t k *A ` - , m^ * 1 , 1. 1 \ ;^ ~ " 23 A-- Yas. - " - \- 24: Q And I .believe; veil, strike that. You have the Tctrathal or r\ * .c ^ >* L f * I ,, ^ ' 1 ."I ^, 4 ^ PEN GAD CO, v > - 101 j- ' `:i\O- h `7 1 h.J t[;.y\ 1 Sj 1 Tetrathal 8(e) catting up there;^Plaintiff'a .1297? 2 i A lo, I do not have that.ora ^ - u . - r^", i'" - ,' \ '#.* *' H ' ' V' * / ' ' i'V* ;*1: 4>i < `i \ . \ r' . r* f r- i. * -' v ^ - f S * * A' - _` -. - , 3 Q . 'All,right, it.i Thsre"it^ is. 'Now, this meeting on January 23rd, *- '' i' ' 4 1985 reported in, your January 24th;1985 raesorondun on Ttratbl, once . \ ' ;;|j i v^''V v `.-r* i- ^ 5 gain la there reference in there to considration aa to whether or not 6 Honeaato or any of the persons I should ay present at the meeting had any 7, Information that reasonably supported the conclusion thatthe.Tetrathl with 8-. the levels of.Impurities init, the levels;ofdioxln impurities in it > 9 presented a'Substantial risk of injury,'to1health or'the environment?- 10 "''A Yes, think so.L L\'*j V\ 11 Q -. And what is that; sir? v ` , .. 12 A 1 would refer to, I guess, the fourth and fifth;paragraphs. * 13 . Q All right. And would you. tell us what is stated there that you 14 k feel is responsive to my question? ' V, ' 4- 15 A; In the fourth paragraph, It was etated, it vas. noted that Tetrathal . t ,, r ~' L *,, J* " j* E 'j `V h - j * .* * ^J 16 had been manufactured and marketed for/around twenty years'with no Indication 17' of significant ipjury to health or the environment It ispresently, being 18 manufactured at the Delaware River plant* . J 19 1 v" r T ^ ^ < ,J F THE COURT: I didn't .hear thelast-** V . 20 'A' It la. presently being manufactured"at the Delaware River plant . 21 " Q -, .All right, air';'* - . ^ > -- . *^ f Hh * J v r r^ " 7 ,- '' y. ^ 22 V A -There have been occasions of which certain workers appear to bo. 23 ; unusually sensitive to the-product and would dovslop a rash when exposed to 24 It. ,Vhen this occurred, the exposure was promptly terminated and the rash x BA YO N N E, N ,J, -j,i t1`i- f*v, ;v;v> i .vV-i L_ 3w ? - .: .'- 1 disappearedwlth nofter effects. ^'.N..other effects from exposure to - J. V " , I f \r - ` -A -,, .1 ' 2 Tetratbal hava^been-noted.,, v r; '\v.: . - > ' V. 1 ( ^ Y ' " 1 . V * V - -rt - t - '-^V 'f " r1 3 :Q So this was a consideration, sir, of whether you had Information 4' that would horconeldred an undelftbed or uncontrolled circumstance under 102 5 - Section roman numeral 6 of the policy? 1 ; J6 ,A \ Ves.. ' :- '' J- 7 8 9- Q And you had no such information? : - ` J ^\ k , 'i > `A-, That's correct. ^.. :*/ 1i r Q " Is there anything else, -then, In the memorandum that refers to 10 Infonsatlon yoeoneldered todeterolne whether or: not you had lhforaatlon 11 that was substantial risk Information reportable? 12 . A Ves, the fifth paragraph reads/ "It/was noted that the spectrum 13 of polychlorinated dlbenzo-pfdloxliis found in Tatrathal is similar to that 14 found In pentachlorophenol, except that itls.at a much lower concentration -'- , ^ ' -f'\ \t_'\ *> T``- , /r^ ' ' 15 In Tatrathal, while the U.S*.Environments1 Protection Agency Is aware of 'TO RN I ilL 24 B 16 the. concentrations of PCDD In penta,the manufacture, distribution, and use 17 of.penta Is continuing." j. ` .. ': . ' ; J8 Q And so'that was Information that was not the type reportable, and 19 X talca 'it was In fact used In reaching th.conclusion that you did not even 20 ' have any serious effects here t .be concerned with? - ' 21 A , That's right. I think the bottom paragraph In the first page aleo ' > , t^ r v' 221L bears a little bit to this. \ h. . 23 V Q A1 right. Would you tell ua what le In there-that you feel is . .' , .. ' l - ^ . * ^ * ^ L ^L 'J '> 24 responsive to this situation? ^: . I IL 103 . f . .i ,s A ' ; c - J U-w v ;~ ...f*" v/ v v -f/; \ <; 1 A Xt v u further noted,that while ultra trace analysis did Indicate }?7' 'V'Vf* !' ^. 2 that Tatrathsl.contained trace-amounts* of higher chlorodibenco-p-dioxine 3 no product analysis ,indicated the presence of Di-, Tri-, or Tetrachlorodlbenko- ^ , r:U ;"f V ``4 - U V w >VfJt , ..-': ...*\ 4 p-dioxin. Prtant available informtion.on the toxicity'of higher chlorinated 5 dioxins Indientee that the low; concentrations present In Tetrathal ' 6 particularly when considered.with the usee to which Tetrathal is put do ;^ ' .'' / v'i - 7 not present a hazard ^ i i- ' - < . ' ' ' ...L -^ ^ 8 -, Q All right,, air* ^ Sobers again; infprioatlon is considered D o v e 9 have any information, and the conclusion.is we don1t have information that ' 10 reasonably supporta the conclusion and that includes this type of informa- 11 tion such as the uncontrolled tudis, uncontrolled circumstances In ' *r ' - 4( ^ " mm i ' * 12 .reaching our conclusion in these minutes; isn't that right, sir? 13, :A That's correct* ,, 14. Q Sow, In view, of the policy and the provisions; of the policy that 15 we'ye Just gone through andtha review of these minutes with regard to 16 ' ` \ . '' / T -V-- ^ ' /v'.;. considerations of information, you testified^ as l recall, when Mr# Carr 1- .BA YO N N E.. N .J L , 07001 FORM 1 L .I 4 B 17 18 19 20 21 22 .23 1 *T 24 aekcd.you a question, and I have;this written down and X believe it's correct/ X thought you said, "Monsanto had no duty to report hazardous levels as such under ths law"? - A (Witness responded by.nodding head affirmatively.) '- ;. ^ (^ l. - >' - Q Under 8(e). , ~ v ' ^' A Tea* My response was in context. Section 8(e) l a gnerai reporting/requirement only when there isJInformation reasonably supporting ths conclusion that a chemical .presents substantial risk of injury to the 104! tr** `^ - i 'I'' -V,-1Vs -..M- v* \ 4 \ . ij f ^ ( j> ' i- 'r * - ' ** . ' 1 1 environment There la no other under 8(e), there la no set reporting - f : 2 fy^. p; jr^ 1 . - 2 requirem"en7t-i owfCfAlle,r:vels-^ofs7' ch-em^ic'"`as'l. s-,'" ^ , * >t -. 3 Q All right. It's the Information, the studies, the observations ,, t 4 of health effects that say that'this is a reason or this la a substantial 5 riek;is that right?' 6 A .Tee*r '' -. \ .f '.V `` ^ 7 Q It la a reporting of- information? \ .8." ' ^ *. A' Yeev / ,v'- v V J' ' \ 9 Q Hot level. Now, would, though,, let *a ask you this, Mr* Park, If 10 . you'had a-level of* a chemical In a product and Mr* Carr asked you these n 12 . questions before X believe, that you, youhad a product that you believed ' ' , *- , I _ n Lr ^ H 9' " J c -* JJ L , , i ,,> / J'- - i '* * * TV contained no harmful contaminants, and all of a sudden you found that, 13 because something was wrong tilth the process or what have you, all of a BAYO M N t, N ,J. 14 sudden;you had a shipment,that went 'out or something that had.some very' 15 harmful contaminants that would amount'to a substantial risk under this (. 1. -^ ." V h ` ' r' L ' in , . t. t/ 16 policy that would'cause these serious effects,, and'even though this', 17 particular contaminant and th0;effects that It could have ware known to the ` ,, , ' 4, T '- .1 t , -V r , ^'H <v h 1 -- - i* ' *. ' 11 'J 18 SPA, well, let me back of a minute* Strictly under 8(e), would you have a 19 duty to report ,Information,that the EPA already bad with regard to those 20 .health.effects? . 1r'--V .,-r .1 21 A. Under.those, if the EPA already had the information, I think 22 there, is difficulty here, because .the one'7sentence statute iswritten in 23 such general'terms, and a case could be made that-no-actual reporting 24 obligation exists* However, In those circumstances, X suspect that we would * , : 1 . .', > Ifi A,**r A \ .;f V.-V .j. i'.s' 105 If,the shipment that you described In che. example.you gave, If Che tank car- i,- ]''l -\S .yVV ^j: ^ -'VC.' had.left the- company;*IthinktHt w would dovtwo things. Ue would probably notify Che cuatomarvlnEediately; im would probably also make some contact -'VU'^^ ` t- : wlth'.thi carrier, and 1 think we would probably Inform the EPA. . Q. Evan though under the interpretation of the lav asyou read it hera,lt la not a strict requirement to report the chemical content when r -- 1 *| ' l -*, ` v ' ,t * ' * < +' 'f r Li \ r i i * ** ** " 1 "" - ^ the EPA haa1knowledge of the effect of what *s in there? ;V/;c.' / A Yes, If I stated;It correctly, the EPA would have knowledge of the adverse health effects which could result.from exposure`to the, what's In that -tank car." But If our^-at an- S,(e) meeting, our technical'experts, toxicologists and so on, felt that there was a substantial, could be a substantial'risk of injury, "I think that we could report that. Q Now, lathe fact that there have been no Interpretations of this statute In any way enter your thinking with regard to. what, you Just testified - ` ` - f tot y "^ . ; y\ t rj \ J v A Not to what 1 justieaid, butt,Interpreting this, I think, will be easier If and when it is clarified. j Q All right. But as you read the statute .and as you read the policy, It speaks, only to reporting Information that the EPA doesn't have ./ . v J .,,.v"/ ' '' , with regard to health effects, studies, or observations? A That ia certainly the primary thrust of It. \ Q But If you-- but nohethelese under the circumstances posed, even though It may not be something that could be* that you. would Interpret . .. - - 1. O - . v , ,< under the policy of the statute to be reportable, you feel you would report `V-7** ' v. ^.j;. ,M [ 0fAX ,}it` fj * / .'V-- . r.. i1iA, i'7k`.>i}w'*-\,\1 [>Vj -UL.-v-l`V,*44"-K - 1'- x' r , , 106 1 it? {;- *'?)} h\ y,-A \ft\i r* ; -% r j - ' * j - -, ; ` f ` ! > ' . VA 1 V <y * - ' 'a\ ` 1 i ' * f , 7 , . -V * v , ki ^ j .J. , 1 - ',, `i 2 A I think under those elrcunstancea we/ would, yes .' , w~ - t;Cy"\ t;f'? i--' 3 > Q Would yburaiy upon the advice with regard to Whether there was 4 ' an adverse health affect at the particular level you were looking at in a S' ` particular cheaical, rely, upon your toricolbgiat, your radical people, what 6 ' have you, I mean, you would yourself?' ! . t , -' / ] * r\ ' 7 , ` , k 1 would have to, vy8. ^ 1 '^ ' . ` - a , j" Y- 8 Q Now/ Mr. Park, can anyone call an 8(e) meeting1or require that 910 an 8(e) meeting be held at Moneanto? .Row doe- that work? '. * r. , ,f \ ^ ^ h* 'r" * _ , _a * ", \ Y* ' " S '^ * ; A This is. described in our little 8(e) practice or procedure thatfa 11 ' recirculated/annually to make sure everybody ioawore ofit. .12. . Q Is that Defendant's Exhibit 881 , sir? 1 'S. --' 13 A , That la the one that went. out for' one year, If Z m lcorrect H -, '' ' *, ^^ ^ 14 - about the nunber now, that*s right. ^ T* ; 1 r' ` 'Y 4' 15 L Q l)o you have that there? BA YO N N E, N .J. 07002 . FORM IL 14 B 16' ''' ^ a ';' tea,?! do*. `` :'V T ' =' O ' 17 ` Q r. All right. ` `r *' j 18 , ,., -!-r t *V ; ` * "l ^ } A - c' . . ' , ,' A And actually, as it states, lt?s circulated to everyone in the t1 V' ' 1 I'll ' ; I, . '' ( . M-- 19 coopany at grade level 34 or. above. -r - ,, : 20 '' .7- Q All right ; What doeo that mean? / _ ' / a .: 21; r - A I'm sorry, I can't tell you exactly what that means,i hot being 22,J a personnel department man. But X would, I- think that that;.would be, would t, j r * k.- j t.m - ^ t t' r Y^ ^s ' 23 mean roughly that it would go to certainly all profesalonals that would, in 24 sy opinion, it would go.to professionals, chemists,, laboratory personnel, \* r .' .r-'. ` - >/ " `^ J j i '' 1 r ' J 1 * - < f. , 1 , *- J*}# i :tf ^ ' v'I*- -Vl^-1;,i' '*- ,J . v'^.t,-^ , . . , v -. 107 'J111 J* *7*5 t' i *i'`*i.<l ftr*i**'>A .ajt'v -i>e 1!Vi- V -. . . 1- ,* ^i ^ r ^J J 0 * r J ^ ' *'* <, / ?L a*4 ' toxicologists,1'et cetera;I*wouldthlnk almoeteveryone, no secretaries 2' ; ^ r- ' V j '3'-' l,`- V ' - clerical psraennelprobablyyouldbebelowgrada 36. I think ell thosevith 3 technical educations would receive It, roughly... And actually anyone -S ' .* -r t ri * ~1 4' " ** , 1' i ,, though to answer your question, about who can request an 8(e) meeting, 1 5 think pretty such anyone can, If he feels he has becose aware, of Information 6 which conceivably could support a substantial;risk situation he could and , 7.. ; 7'-; should requcst an 8(e) meeting. v J r":. *]\ -' j / , C ; v ' '/ 8 Q And In fact the fourth;page of this exhibit,'Defendant's 881 Is 9 captioned'"Internal Procedures:for transmittal of Substantial Risk Information 10 to the Director of DHBH Monsanto Company," and going down to the fourth " ' -, - s * -v- r- -. ; , 1. 11 ' f , - , ] v 1 t i i . - J - * . t If n ^i ' paragraph there, sir, would you,,read to us what1is the stated policy there :, : . ' 12 ` ; \ i,'v './ ' 'r ^. '^ v. ` with-regard to information? ,i 13 A. tea. It aaya, "Anyone obtaining Information of the type.described 14 above, should imediataly submit such'information to a supervisor." 15 . "y w -'-`y * . 1 J;., .v ' -v . Q And the type of Information described above, that's,a reference to FORM IL 24 B 'PENG AD ' CO.. BAYO NN E, N.J. 07003 16 what, alrt '^ L"\" J ` 'l, ' ^1 17 A that would be the reference to the first paragraphs It saya, "Any 18 Information which reasonably supports the conclusion that a .chemical substance 19 1 - L. 1- . , or oixtura manufactured, proesaeed, or distributed In comUarce by the company 20 present a substantial risk,of Injury to health or the ainrlrofiment**,^ C 21 Q All right* And just turning to Page 2 of the policy, sir, this 22la a supplement to the policy, la it not? ;; 23 * A- Toe, urn haan. ^ `F-1." 24 Q And down the fifth paragraph," after there Is a ;statement there,^ ' , , I. 4" . `\ i :; u :r ; y 1if^ ` "i 'r'l* J v /'} n ^-/v -- ;i :v , 108 'r'J ` ^ }, j . _ .L '* - t?'-'`r>'-',v 'f-'1 'V;"^ -. !, 33 y * " i i , *: i;-v..*,. , \ .h'**'>{. -i j <_? . f. - *, * tr ? f , ^ 1 J-V . U* 7, ' -' '1 1" / , , i? jfc.' " - f - t -v^ - --'V ' <r 1 first of all t Is'there not, with', regard to what constitute* substantial risk" ;J .2 ,` 0' * , _ ../ - , _ 3 .Q So that the people that receive.this Vlll have some Idea of twhat 4 5 Is to be looked for, what we are .talking about here; Isn't, that right? p^ k A l4 A rL ' ' ' ^` w ,,, .That1 correct ^ -I- ` , f 1 * V:,,/. ' ' cv A^ ' \ *" t l * >/ ' 1/ -'*> . * * '. 6 : \ Q And then If you would, sir, read, that second paragraph starting 'T 8 tilth "These criteria**? ' ' '> \ rM t- 'r ' -* - PA r ' S- " ' - -h ni p "V , ^^ ^ il 1 ,, -r t > v A "These criteria need, to be weighted-differently for different .types 9 ; ; of effects, both htusan and environmant- |Zf there Is any doubt as to whether -^ , i _^ * ' nh ' _ a k' - 1* 10 infomation should be reported^ it should be submitted In accordance with : l ` our procedures to your designated organization unit individual for review. ; 12 13 * 4 15 by the coajslttee .establlshed for this purpoflo." 1# -I ' ' 1. Q. Ifm sorry,.go ahead, x <J l-s & "It should be noted that Information naed not be reported' If -you -A , i 'j ^ 'S. ^ haveknowledge that the EPA already has been Informed.of it or It has been 16 published, in the scientific literature."; PEN C A D C O .. B A tO N N E . N-J- ' O O O I ' 17 . 18 0 So the policy of Monsanto as announced in this document la If '' i' - * 1 jJ t ^ , / . - , * . j- i 'j * . ' anyone has any doubt as to the lnfbrmatlon thot they have come in contact 19 with Is such Information .that they/should report it and. let it get to the 20 committee for the cosslttee to review?.. * _1 ' <' *.i . *f 4 *. + i S. i, A- ? 1 21 A. .' `That's -correct.' ^ -t \ r'; \ ' . '':- 22 Q And Is there,a statement In this policy also with regard to 23 ` employees' rights? _ :p 24 . :A That's correct. v \ " ' *" '' i S. ii. t*\ /\ Vi r///, .<///' n?f,> i i * 1 v '<, _ `f--^ ft f1J; -, iYv/V) fy \ v;//-i/? it. -- ; .. V;' j>i //.a- l Q And would you toll_us what Chat atateraant la sir? 109 L 2 * , ./ A Aliiright And rhia^atatenant Is'to'relieve any employee of any . 3r '4 . 5. 6,\ Inhibitions about his obligation'to raise 'question of 6(e) meetings. Tt ' * / ' > /.* r' _v read, "Monsanto's policy and its Internal substantial risk reporting ' ' f'!''' . * , F procedures state chat employees who submit Information through company , t " i '< * v, ` . *. # 1 ^ .j ` ` *l - ' ^ . TJ ,,- channels will be notified of action taken, -together With the reasons for T such action./ If the. tnployee disagrees with the company's decision that - -r ` 8. the Information-need not be reported, he has the right to report such 9 : information directly to the EPA." And the act provides, "that no employer ' 10. may' discharge or'Otherwise discriminate against an employee because that . 11 -' Employee assisted or participated" In an .action-to, carry out th purposes /* : 12 'of the act." k '"***./ '* '".V ' !/r,- / ,, '' '/ ' .13 ` Q So Monsanto Is Informing that ho action can or no .action will be 14 ,, taken by Monsanto nor can be taken under the ouplcee of the lav? , .. ; . \SiV:/ . -i-`v.- ./_ 15 A,'.' That's right. 1 V - / ^ 16 Q ' If they don't agree with Monsanto's position and report It to'; 17 the EPA anyway; Is that correct? / ", '` PE NO AD, C O ., B A Y O N N E , N.J; N 18 "//A That^a corredt., j -v r ' /- v *. k ; / '' 19 . ' THE COURT i Mr. Hugrave, la this a good point for a short break? .20 . MR.MUSGRAVE: .I/think It la, your Honor. ' : ! 1"- s - - 'V- ' / _ 'v ^ T -. - 21 , * - _p .T '* -* ` S '* i- ~ THE.COURT t Ladies ahd'gentlemen, ve will take.a `short ;recess at 22 thla time and then resume testimony. The Court Is .In recess./'. . 23 1 . r- . (At this time Court was In recess.) '` % . ; . ' t , ' , , -y ' ' ' , > 1 - ^. 1^ 24 BY MR. MDSGRAVE:.. '* ' ' '. , ' 'L / ' , *. mL 7` ' "N ' - t, - ' ' S * -j ,, - r J ^ ` * * *.m - ^ .. - v..*.r~. .. ' n i l ."T*:**. rv^u \v*.\ \ " ;?'/:'i; A ; > V - V .P4 W' ' 110 1 ^ v:' ^ ` >- . - J ' . i`-5 !4.s-/; i,r;isU-> Vjy I1; - -v-^r/?-*'>.!-v.j : *_ *-.*..v. L .'' , ' . 1 Q Mr. Park I think we* were talking about Monsanto1 or Defendant's ..' j ., - 2 .831 and the information put out 'by Monsanto to various employees when wo 3 recessed. .And Z Chink we had covered everything In. that but I wanted to ' '....*" \ - L ' '* ;< ; - 4` draw your attention to for a moment I,d llike?to come back to Defendant's 5. 880, the policy?statement offthe EPA. -..We had talkcd about most of the sub headings in there.under the roman numerals. .1-d lika -to.draw your attention ` \ 1i , * 1 ^ xr H J" j - ' ,, n* i -^ .. ! j ' r ^' 1 7 though toiromah numeral 9, the reporting'requirements. That .would be the 8 J fourth page of the exhibit/ Do you have that, sir?. .9 ?A- Yes, I do. .. * 10 Q. And this is the section of the policy that sots out those things . 11 that a notice to the EPA.when notification is deemed to be required, what 12 it should contain? v. n / .' , - 13 :\A1' That's correct. '. '? \ 14, , .Q k And ,A refera' to it should be sent by certified mall.or any other 15 ? way permitting; verification of this receipt, end B, that it should be 16. ' stated that ;It Is submitted in accordance with Section 8(e), and C, the-, IT- . name of the person, the. address of .manufacturer admitting this Information, 18 and then D says to identify the chemical substance or mixture; is that 19 right, sir?. ;? J .? L .20 ? A r That'u correct,, um htnm...' . ?- V ?V; - - ' 2K Q ' '/ad.then E,' would you read B stoils* air? " - L- 1* 22 A saya, "Summarize the adverse effects being reported,, describing 23 : the nature and the extent of the *risk involved , '%1 ,v? - ' ,, - J r . ./ * *-v;\ ; s', ;- - -i j>. Jl 24 Q So there it's talking about reporting the health effects that you fO R M .-IL 24 8 -j ,vWi ^ ;/-.W*v i ; Y g i\ *i,*u >":v.- *1 * li * -" \ ,-. -1`V ^-t\ i ' ,-"" <*"i";'' ? ''I VV -' V i * /-* .'\\,- * .* % ' 1 f '? * i i j- i ': >j ^V=- ^ t i \ -*' rJ -*#. r **,*V * * V * *> 4 111. \ L.*' feel make this a reportabla-Item;, Isn't, that correct? ,v. i t vv* *'-*- -* '*1 ` r" ;,2' A Yes. Health effect/ or there:could> be anvlronsental effects* 3 Q , All tight. ''And whetdoes F say, sir:? 4 / A , V. s&ysV^Containthe specific aourceof the Information together 5 " with a Nummary .and the source of any available supporting technical data," 6 , Q So they went a summary of the adverse'offsets, and then they want 7 ' ybu-toaay where you got the information, howyou got It? 8 A That'o right; ' *- / ` r , .9 ? 0 Do. these reporting requirements then corroborate; your, understanding 10 that the policy and the statute .would clearly seem to be talking about 11 12 r reporting information about adverse .health effects? ^ 7' i ,i , -i 'v t ` ' J .* (/ - '- ' ; ` ^ i' ' ' ~L,-i ,, ^ t` - * , 1 " A I think it does, Adverce health effects and possibly environmental), 13 ,, 14 r effects . j- Q v Now statutes once Interpreted are sometimes Interpreted broadly, 15 >re" they not* air? , 16 . 17 'A '*'Yes^\V/`` ' \ \'f ''f` V ' Q And sometimes they are Interpreted .narrowly,: are'they not, sir? 18 g " *A / That's correct. ./. -.:g ^ 1 \ r , t , 19 f ' ;Q And people have varying opinions, lawyers have varying opinions ' 20 -, '.as to whether a statute will W will-not be Interpreted in a,particular way 21 or not in a particular'way?.* . -- ` ' ^ .- 22 -- v . u ; > r r.A That's certainly :truewi ' >j j" -^ ' . ' / ^ i:\-. ;/ V ^ \;-vv , ,y./` / 23 1 Q ' And since sometimes;they are1Interpreted juat llke you think they 24 ,are going to be interpreted? - . j-. v,wv,1 ,> 7 'n " 'f c - ^ n- /Tv. A yl-'i,i r->` r- - . . \ ; i-t/ ; A A v v v * . 4r , . " . ' -J a *L < * ' . / \ - ' * f 1-; -- i-' Y ' ^ ; 112 ,1 2. 3 v, ..,-, - ^ ' *-..\ {"Af'*-1'-v^' ' > . t ' ` ; J 1i 1 - \ `? > A That1 tight. . ^; Q Rarely, but it does happen, doesn't;. It? , A That' correct. -A'* * ;v ^ 4 Q For that reason sir, would that aituation play any role In the . 5 determination of Monsanto to report what night be hazardous level In the 6 health effect of a. chestica1 even though they believe EPA has got the ;l ' \ ^ '`A'*- i. Av J-" ` / V information? ",,'/ ' v ' ' r ;- ' A 8, . A I think If there^were some doubt,if it vaa a little bit fuzzy, we 9 L would lean toward reporting the information. -- 10 , '. Q t Lj ,, ^ ' 's' -V /* Now, I.want to coao back to this Tetrathal nesting that would ** W ^ Lj * . * i Lj ,,A > r. ^ `' a ' r 11 K^ 4 T . Ij * ' ^ t , ` " '' - ' 1 .. ` 'N be Plaintiff'sBsfclblt 1296. Do. you bave that, sir? A. ' "' -' ' . l., , * "1 , s -i- ^ ,x;. ^ *- ... `.- n- ' 'V r'. ' " A,. 1296?, J.1' \ i>`- : - ,, ? s _ -,/ 13 14 - 15 1' -A ,Q ' I' sorry, 1297. , . ' J 1 , - c il* j ' , - . ' * - - t- . r *1 ,* A "Yes, .1 do. J v , ,\ - >w' * ' 1'v > i( \ ' ^. ^ 3, . t` i - * '4 ^ Q Now that eating was apparently generated, air, because of 16 br ; Nalr1 memo of January 14 thatvs Plaintiffva Exhibit' 1296. .Do .you have ` 17 that up. there? /' ` ? ' A' It was up here* - ./ ^ .19 20 - Q Z'aat it there for you because I knew we would be coming to it. 7 ' `. . ' . . i J, /* - . '' A " I know it was up here, yeah hercitia, yes. 21 . 22 * ' ,* " ' -, ] Q You have l269? -V.." . . r ^> 1 ! ^ ' 4 *' -11; ' * A 'Yea.';-' . . *'. - 1 * , ^ y *\7 ' f'* ^ v 1.i-' , r. ' - , ' '* ' ' > . ' T. . ' '" 23 Q And'do you also have Plaintiff 's 1299, Dr. Levlnelca's oemorandun 24 ' \A ' " '' j- j* fi ^ to Dr. Bousch .which regards that report?;' -, ' * ' ' .. > -- `i'r* iT* *' -i.*E^.fi if1 `V^ ,`.; ^ w '!V <1'p ' v-i , 1 ' ; ' ' 1``` * -r. 1 v _.. ;./*; : - ^ > vvr-'tM; - r^?VtV'S Vf" Lr r'JV;.'/v` t* U-;V- y 1-M^' v ^ ^' - v ^ r Yes, urn hum, ~', "- 1 1 r -^ ; 113 ./ ^ t ;-J' . _;t-r 2 MR. MUSGRAVE: Was .the. jury given a copy, of Dr* Levinskasf report I? l /" , 3 Mr. Carr? ;/ \ . , 1 `` -rV, L. ' ' > ^ 1` , *. .'4' ; ' - -MR- CARR: .Yes* ' ^ ';V - :' V ' ' 5: v \ \ M,-WSGRAVE: 1299?^ L ' -- -\j-\V' ^ ` v-,.V . ^ ` r 6 HR. CARRs Yea* ' -;. "V : -*` L- ' `. . ., c:/'-. .--. '; ^ `- . V ' r, ; .. 1 \ L A. . 7' . Q- So we have. 1296 the committee Tolnutee> 12961 which la. Dr. Nalr'c ,8 9 10 " 11 , {. 12` report and 1299 which ie Dr. Leviuskas to Dr. Rousch with regerd to : -. * ,.v/ 1V'-' - .. ' ^ _ ./ !- , * .'.V f .< * . .k ^ .J j r - ,J . / v j Dr* Nalr'a*report; _Is`that correct? .;*^ "!>v^7 'r.-> ^- .j A" . i- r-\ " v*' a / y p ? 0 y \ . ;::y .. y' i.' .- . - " Q / Now; were there other doetnaenta evailable to you at that tneetlng, \,V '. ^ air* healdea Drv:Nair*a report end Dr* Levinakaa1 report? \ ,` 13 A ` Yes there were. Ae the clnuteo of a meeting indicate, In the ' " ,:V' -v . `j ; ; v ' '' ;y . r - r- .. .14 sU eV Wcov nU dU paragraph madi UdAibtAiVoUnaO l* lnfomationA I M * V A P U * l i d V U wW aP sP bl / rA oV Vu^gUhtb bW yJ ,| IA gglul WeDsDs Aitb was.W A Q f .15 , DDrr,. McCarlahd, "i believe.f'. ^ fj;t'l. ';1 ' /. - Lv. ; ' 1' '.Lt k -'7; *'. V'"'* ' ' V ' ;"' \ 16: L'kkl ' -.J /11 , 'L. -"1'Mi. -i' _, *:- _ . - r` V (Defendant1s Eshiblt.884 was Marked for Identification> 17\. I rsa bending you now what1s been tiiarked aa Defendant*a 884* -. 18 1"' .. 19 . ' Vt -' rA Q -Yea.;';: ' r * ' ^ } Vs Can you Identify that: `air?; !r"' L1'1 20 - .ii . r * ' ' ;v / J. 1 ... , r '-'s ' .. , . - u. Yes* 'This Is the information that was brought to the meeting by 21 Dr/McCorland. "v'f , 22 - t' i , v - w \&\ Q A. Now, the first two pagoa of Defendant's 884 la Information,,apparently ^ .,v `- -, ' ' s' r;'"1 23 . ^ 'S-'. supplied -i by ;!,j .'J.W.D. ^ Thoae ;I'.>\.r.. v i-k.-are the initials I see at r_*^ -v" the bottom of ' the page* j , J` - *. .v .. .t . t . ' ' "> . . . j 1J ' y m . ' * -S `- r\ . ( ., ' 0- L . > ' 1 -" 1' ;t ' ' f- , - y > r .. _ . < v - .j . . -24 -1, HR." CARR: J*D.W., Jctaes D . Wilson ^ ,A ./ ' ? : 4 ;; lU'-_Vs-`.J.r,tA^^ rv.S;- '-V-v: -. ]**'.I*i ir ; ; k vv *11* ^/V-V*iih ' .i\-;X.:' - ' '- f :.,\ rJ i; % ! " / \ * i -TV'. . j- J `- ^ i L ' U ' ^ ; P ; t - ( - ^ 'k - -J , ' ' * - -r * ' V T -` ' , . '' ^ s . 11 i " ' L^~." i s -f\' /:WS j'i` ,^rV\ Y V '. ; '"' > ';;*, /-v^ - i v\..- \ \ 11; Y - L , - , . 114 `V .HRl MUSGBAVEj' Yes.'l^kW, sir. .W -. A ' Yesi^tKat?3;rightQ-0fif 1 . \',fT ^ >' . / J. f j- Q ^ You understand chat to bo Janes Wilson? ki ^ ' 4 . ' A' '1 r ' .y J L . , , t > " I think .those ore his Initials; yes; - ' rV^ .*k' * ' ' r_ f/lJ " 1 Q And then the next two pageo i s a c o v e r letter and report from - Dr. Hlleman, Fred,Hileoan, which X believe has .'the results of the Tetrathal studies for dioxin content;-isn't that correct?: ' "r'i ! J ^ / A That's correct. ' -,t. /' ^' '' Q Andtheuthe next page is a letter or a,memo from Wolfsburg^r to Hair, Levinskas, Pfipagcorge, et si7; regarding Tetrathal'monitoring "> ,, 1t r ' /j ' -` ^ ,, \1 " . vs results?-. 1 m " ^1 k '.t ` ^ * l> i , , I ^.1 - v"v i- ' ' Yee.::V'" r /:'. -v' * - Q And in fact, that nemorendum deals >lth monitoring studies of the %n>rkers*'exposure to Totrothal in the work place? '- ' 'l \ ' r -i . j f ^' v , ' * A. ' Yes.;''' " '- _ y./ j`' '/ ' Ot [ - "i. . " .'V ;' . '* r - 11] L Q Wow; Tetrathal,.is that`a liquid or a flake, air? * '' , A i,< . Q I think it*s a flake, it's not a liquid, ;k'r` .../.">*_ ^ r And in fact, the Wolfsburger memo la referred to by Dr. Wilson . In his write-up, the first two pages, doesn't he refer to that on the second page there, we will com to it in more detail, but IJuat wanted to point out that Dr. Wilson waa .using information from Hr.. Wolfsburger in the report that he gave to. the committee; la that correct? ' - , t .. ^v ; r s> , i -, . ' r^l" t. "i < < > *-1 - v ' , 'V ` J` ' n^ '1 ' r 1VJ * -- ' A That's*correct, . , * ' - ,V.: ,v . , ; *"> .` . . V Q ' 00 the monitoring -of the exposure to the.workers of the Tetrathal 1 {'y "i tf- . Y ` .'- ? s <i 'iJ t` . v i 1 i yi-' > a ; < J- V'X$ ` i` Vv' e' >-* ' J A `t ' - 'i S V '1 'c'J **-: >S;J A fto i ~yx*, -1 .. ; 'r\ '` y f i V ! "i- ' V - . ' 115 flake'; Is that right, sir? y' % > 5I?, t,,,i s[. / L .`.* L;c*->` ';1>: t* Vi'' < '4.-V * * S *1- f , ` J V *- \2 A ` That's correct. \_, " ^ ^ ' ' , , " l- l i ' V , ' r ', ^ 3 V-,Q : And then thenext pagenfter that! just note from a Mr. Ashley 4 Fatar to J,l>; Wiloon reflecting the closing of relevant pages oftwo articles dealingjiith the toxicity of certain chlorinated'dlbenzodioxins? . 5 ` 6 _ / A' j That's,;right.1 , / W L r* A; ,,1 `\ . _ k, ,*'j'.1h:- ,. ; ' ,,, /''>, ' L , , ; - 4r Q ' .u"'.J"*1'' ' ,` " 'k And that Information forwarded by. Mr, Peter appears, to be also 7'V ; , -'.; _ ..*.> . . , \r- , " "*'* ' 8 ' referenced in Mr,' Wilsons *.first two p&ge of this exhibit,! that pot / ^ y ^, i ' 9 ; correct? . ^ i-* -_` io S f ..'A-.- Yes`*;^_ *1 ^ 11 .:Q So paragraph C thcrc talks about toxicity and then it says as a "/n. referenco, ""Summary preparaci l>y ,; Peter ^attached," `; : ' 5 " 13 \ That* correct. s . Ji* ji /, ':"' LV lr:- n ./ 14 vV r Q , And the last two pages of this docusent, are ;in fact the attachmentc to the Peter taeo, the lnfomation about itoxicity and what have you thst he ^ y$. .y ` " ',J `, ' ' ' *.j. ' 1 " ,. ` 1 , rv J ", J , s . _ V .. >' i . t, `1 ^ ' passed on to hr*;Wilson who ln t u m put It ln hie,ceso; isn't that right? j , 16 Ji ;|'IT. ^ ,'>'rA That 'id rijdit* V". ' '=' ' * ,;8-; 'V -t `Q ^ So you had this other infortsatin that wt hcve Just gone through ' 19 /. J I* evailabie at this 8(e) meeting? ,* , . V' ; ,; .. p - ' - .\ "v ^---v . ^ / ' ' . . .> ' , \* '- ; '20 , -A.: :-Yea,' ^ - / ; > ; IV /^ V. r'"v' ' ^ J* V'',' r./.. :., 21 ;i Q Wow, cif vk can kind of tilk sbout the various elements or various V ; 22' j ^ . 23. b' 24 things now in Dr, Wairfs report *vin connection .with this other Infprm&tlon [' . t l. ` _ J .V <J , . _ ' ' T; . . . H - , . J. , t i ' ; J v ` u i . . . ,. ' \\. f 1 1,j t . ,j ' . o , .- that you had, nov if ycu would,.;let.-e look at Dr. Nairra report ae Plaintiff 1 '*l'- ; ' ' *f `T -l ' . . 1 V*' ' f ;, 'V j *- , " - . , i u. - ' - *" * . .- 1296,r How,, inTreaching her conclusion, is there a statement here with '\ ' , " ` `. V '.r *\ ' 't-t r} -r" . ./>>j - v \ V;t' 1 -f; V* Kh;:V2 ' * - r.-'.'1 H6 .1 , regard to the absorption that she assumed in connection with the Inhalation ' 2" of this Tetrathal because it la a flake. It gets In the air, doesn't it, 3 sir?. . :;`V :' 4 A - Yea# , 5 Q : la there a etatemantin there to that effect? 6 A Yes*. She assumed 100 percent absorption* 7 *' Q One hundred percent absorption \of the amount, of Tetrathal in 8 the*air? . , . ' / ' "v / ''. Z1'.'i v ; "`- . 9 - A That's correct. 'r - 10 Q That is whet vas breathed in? How, in the consideration of the H r * coualttee, was there Information from Dr* Wilson that In any way. supplied U , more Information sbout that assunptlon, particularly:I would refer you to 13 'i t4 ` * - ' I' Subparagraph C of the Wilson Information4, Defendant's 884, that's on Page 2? 14 ^''A Yea. ' '* L \ ,r 15 .: Q . All right, sir* /Is/there .any reference there to anything dealing 16 with that 'assumption of 100..perant absorptlonby inhalation? 17'' A Tea. It state tiers that respiratory protection Is worn by 18, 19 ,20 - 21 * 22 23 24^ workers In the work place* ' . Q All right*. 1, r, ' \', * A And assume 90 percent.protection/ - . ' - Q And n inhalation volume of lOm^/ahlft, a mean dust level of 2*9 mg Tatrathal/mV and it refers to, the Wolfsburger memorandum? 1 -. A Yes* . * ' r".1 Zl * ^ < -,~ Q; .; And thcn cbmpleto/abBorptibn of all inhaled duct? / : ; -- \t k':* Vv; \; ^ ./, ^ ; ;, , ;/4 *-,{-*i .',rr.'Jv.*i;-` -``-.V " >V. ' P E N G A D C ,, B A Y O N N E . ` N.J.. ,0>001 -C , r` i 117 'A Ya$. ' ; ; ^-- Q Do you recallv sir# Whether the committee Jn then.referencing the -;3 Wolfsburger memo with ragardj to. studies there of Tatratha1 exposure In the - " \- . *t J " T *\ ^ J- . t , * ,J ` t '> J^ . -s J - A '' workplace andthe monltorlng prograra and the cocsBsnts -of Dr/Wilson with \*5 ;6 : -T 8 - * . '**'*,, y \ regard to the respiratory protection whether there was any# It had any effee '- -*" ^ i'i '' iff ,v" '-? i - 'it .{ - ! { . on the statement of ,Dr. Hair abbutthe ICO percent absorption front Inhalation 1, ? i , r - " '.-s- ^ ^ * ' V - ,, - /: L ' ' 1 " " / ' ',. J( 'V ~_ , c ,,> > :.. ^ _ ' ` of Tetrathal#,Ttyou racalI one way or the other?/ " (1; iVS.-<P\ K 5 W V 'K - 'i *X; C i - \ ': . - ' it. ; -- . i~. - is-;-. -;> .> . " . . - A 1' frankly just don't recall that. " , ;> r r ' *" r _ . * .9 " Q Al l.;r,lght. ; IkJW.ranptHar point with regard to, you w H l see In * "- t. ~ i' L 1 ' 10 .. Dr. Hair's emo down at the hottcm* she says" that# `The potential calculated 11 dally Intake exceed*' the virtually safe dose b y * factor of ICDO11? : :12' v "V - *'L J- /. 'L " V' ;/ ;A ' Yas.,/'.; ; * ' -* ' .* ' i , '1 T J mJ J v tW *. I 1 " mf L ; . VI ' % f~ -' k ^' 1 - *+ ' ^ ^ 13 <1 And that Is a virtually safe dose as apparahtly statad by the 14 Hatfonal ftaseareh Council of Canada with'regard to 2# 3# 7, 8 TCDD? 15 ' v 'A ' .ThatVs right. ;-;,. 1 _ ; r* ` v- x ... . - \ .j- 16 ' d : Is that right? ^;"v.: St 17. . A'- That's right. . . / `J/ 18 Q And It says that at Ipast according to the national Rasearch Council '.19 * of Canada Is 30-$0 ng/day? P N G H D ;C O .; " B A Y O N N E . N.J. *- 20 * v A . That's right. -V,/ ^ - :. 21 : Q. How she Is then saying thatthe dally Intaka that she calculated J r :1 *^ tu '- " " < *, , f v ^ t ' >* - * ^ ' ,, ' ''V - ' \ > ^ ' %. t J ' >*_ j' *f 1 ;22 ' sxeeeds that virtually safe dose by a feetor of e thousand; Isthat right? L ` 24 L A' . That's what sha says herc. / ... Q Mew# the exposure that dha caleulatcd cm a basls of fg/kg/day# Is * L J ^ '*V ,. ? V ' t! " . ' # r- t ; 118 ^r/` that reported there fomadtetaly above .that,paragraph at 12*8001 * ". ' `f , ,^ 1 , . . * _ - ' <: , ^f f1 n' . `; !H I -1 V - , s 2- >. , A " ThatUiYlSht.^ ; \ r: '' - ^ \- * 3 Q How*ffth safe dose Is 30 to 90 per day. end she seys that In v,`: ' r ' '* -" 1 ` ^ *' ^ 4 Har calculations she Is finding 12,800 per day Is 90 .1000 times, or Is r> .. ...v * .. ,-vv / y-J .' r/ r .; ` - ;y ' *. 5:v # *n 12,800 1000 times,greater -tMfi',90?... V `* 1?*Jy";Tf'^jr?, it*,*C-'"^ft i;ti ; !1 V*T``^.. V -' y.. A Jr'Wdultisn*t4.; y u / ; - ' W v v*V> ,',/T^' ' r 7>. 'v .. . ` -* j, . - ,f . `What would It be:;*#lf?'7Wy rJJ ` - r . . - , * ;1 '*-L J ' >-i 8 A I thtiik thing sort of less,;.III XW> tises or 150 times,. 9 '. something Inthat-rsnga. '^ W (, ' ' " . ' . - W I 1 W-Yi 1 _ ' -' L ` v. ' tr , ik v-. ' ' - ..... ; :. - ." ` 1 ' t ' ` ^ - ' ' Y , \ ja 1 ' Q You would dlvlde 9b-lnto l2,800?. ' tts ll: ,a -. Ves* ' ^ - r . ^ , r - ' \ l # ' .. . > F i ' V v`2`-' -: ' . J ` H, ,p ' 1 S - - f' ^ 1 Xr " I ** '- ` ^ * ' " ' " . r t" 1 ' t/ ` ^ - S ' -. ` , ' ' j ' V ^ ?, i-'* ^J V ** V f r ` 1. J^ ,, - r S ir ' 12^; ' Q. And that vi^uid be saM)thing around l42 tiaes# wouldn't It? ^'`i ' f '' , 13 r A - Right, yes^ -; "/r :'3 . v" -- . ~^r ^ 14 .; Q ^ And If In fact your ealculatIont and'my calculations and your' t - -;;v v , is' : understand!hg and myrunderstand Ing f tht% doment Is correct vvthen she ''-i 16: ' misspoke whin sha sald It was lOOO tIms bove the virtually safe dose ,!g ` " 17 - . right? *<: j j 18:..; A 19 - r 20 * % Hi A * f*' ^ *rfi *% VesX v&:1" "' ''1' .In-,fact* If vie are correct, It's only IhE tlraes; Is that right? Yes# ' > E N C * 0 , C o V . `.BAYONNE*. ;N.J. 21; 22;';23;-, 24 Q -Now, also, sIr,;siiewas talklng about a safa.dose of 2, 3 7 8# " ' X X , . . j /o; :v\'.' Is that what It says?. N 4 ^ , '- T 4 'X , ,; , ` ^ i r f r,,.;.;A"ThatU rlghtl; r1/-, * -V r .'-1. ''c.- j ? Q Ami after, she references -this Cenad ten Council statacnentron ..-,vvA .i' " f- < J f".:.+` ,it 1 2, 3 7# 8 she then states as follows "It Ns bean shown that 2 3 7* 8 2 TCDD is the most toxic dcxn and the potential risk for other/1and 1 3 guess that's from other It's a typo I guess "other chlorinated dioxins 4 would be relatively lower but without the appropriate data (carcinogenicity 5 data on Hepta endjoctachiorInatad dioxin) It Is difficult to determine how 6. much lower,*' right?v^ " 7 A That's right/; 'V 8 Q. Now, her calculations with regard to 250 parts per billion being .. :V\ / r '\ r*' 9 assumed as the average amount apparently of contaminant apparently we 10 are not assuming any 2 3 7$ 8, as Hr* Carr has suggested, and you see that 11 250 parts per billion reference at the top of this second page of her report 12- do you not? 13 A That1* right. 14 0 How, did you have any other data at this meeting that gave you 15 Information as to the diffrence In toxicity between 2, 3, 7 8 and some of 16 these other chlorinated dioxins? Let's first of all look at Or* Levlnskas1 17 memoranda after;reviewing her report* 18 A Or* levlnskas took Issue with Her using the Canadian nuaber for 1.9' the tetra* ' 20 Q Wail do you have Plaintiff's Exhibit 1209 there? 21 A Vas 8 do. 22 0, And first of.all. In the first paragraph of that, he reports that 23 he Is attaching her memo and he sends this to Or. Rousch, doesn't he? 24 A Yes 1 Q, And then In th 2 sentence to tss? paragraph would you read that first 3' A "Since T O D was found only In waste dust at X-5 parts par i. 4 billion, the calculations regarding potential PCCO exposure from Tetrethal ' j' ' '' '* l>r -f( . \ i".. ' l- 5 represent en extreme situation which'greatly exaggerates the risk-* , j it i h L' 6 Q And the calcultIons that he Is talking about which he feels 7 greatly exaggerates the risk, do you know whether or not, that references 8' Dr Hair's memo as';attached? ? A I assume that It does* 10 Q And then does he hot go on end give some Information about the 11 relative toxicity of 2, 3*7 8 to there the fourth paragraph he talks 12 about pentaeMerodlcxSn and compares its toxicity at least as to guinea pigs 13 to 2 3 7# 8 does he not? 14 A Yes urn hen, 15 Q And then he talks about another form of pentaehlerodtoxin, which 1 I 'i 16 has an oral 10 SO o f H 2 5 , whereas In the guinea pig. It's for 2, 3, 7, 8, 17 It's 3*1 some, over 300 times less toxic, right? 18 A Yes* \ 7 19 0 And than he talks about three bsxachtofo Isomers with tO 50s of 20 th 60 to 200 ranges Is that right? 21 A Yes*' : .* .j 22 Q And that would be 30 to, or I should say, 20 to 30 times less 23 toxic at least than the 2, 3 7, 8 as to guinea pigs, correct? 24 A ' Yes-' ' ` *' ' 1 Q. And thsn the last sentence he talks about ecta Isomers that 2 would be the octodlbenzechlerodloxtn? . .3 A Yes. * f/ 4 d ' Crdo you know? V-.' `i ;{ ' , ;v * S A I assume that rasens the eight- * 1. 6 Q. Andhessys tlwy are reported to have ID SO values In the grew 7- par k11ogress? 'r^; 8- A Um h1rmf; `, ' r V1*l'' . 1 . _' d Which would be many, many many, many mora times less toxic then 9 10 the 3.1, and I think the ug Is mferegram? * ' A : Yes. 11 12 d So here Is tavlnskas, Is ha not than supplying the ecomlttee with soma of this Information as to relative toxicity? 13 14 A That's right. d In fact In tha next paragraph ha talks about mixtures of haxa~ 15 16 chlcrodloxln being fetotoxlc and producing fetal abnormalities and edsnsa In i , *k n1' 17 pups at dosages higher than 2 3, 7 8 TCDD; Isn't that correct? A Ve*. 18 .* , V > -* 1I 19 d So again He Is giving more Information about the relative toxicity 20 A, That'S correct. 1 21 Q And then he states at tha end there that the octschloro Isomer 22 produced no fetal abnormalIties van at considerably higher dose? 23 A Yes.' * j 24 Q. And of course Dr. Ilalr In hor memo was saying m need or we don't P EN C A D C O .. B A Y O N N E , J . < 0 7 0 0 - ; FO RM JL 2 4 B _ 1 A Sha says she uses the word average, I bsllova. 2 Q AH right. She used an average'amount. Do you know the distinctU \ ,s , '>. ' , .; 1- s ' - v 1- - * *`l '< - A * <f ' t. .3 between Or.^Wilson'*(use of th& an..total and her use of the average 'J 1 11 ; '^ 4 amount? -J , .*" 1 ^ >, v <^ f # t - i . s , , , A - I Relieve that,a mean'In a ease that there ere as teeny samples 5 6 ' or there would be as many numbers above It as below it. Q. All right. But In any event*;this Information was all then 7 8 avalfable to the eosmlttee, was It not? 9 A Vos* that's correct# 10 d And In reviewing tall, did.you form any* or let me rephrase 11 thet. You've told us before that you are not e toxicologist or e doctor* n you listened* I take ft* to what wont on In that raseting and the conclusion 13 that was reached by the toxicologists and doctors was essentially what you 14 recorded here? - < ' ' 15 A That's correct. Q And that was the belief In Plaintiff's 1297 that this Information 16 * * ' t \ 17 did not reasonably support the conclusion that the levels of dioxins In i i, i- * * * <- 1 18 the Tetrathal presented e substantial risk of Injury to heeifh or the Lj 19 environment? 20 A, That was the conclusion* yes. > 1, . 'j 21 1 Q Or dots Or. hair's memo, Hr. Park* say unequivocally, without a . 22 doubt, 250 parts per billion of dioxins In Tetrathal Is unsafe and presents 23 a substantial risk of Injury to the health and the environment under Section 24 M * Y ? * ` t ] A . Ha, she doss not. 2 Q,; She says she doosn^t knew, doesn't she? 3 A `that's right.V 4 Q, Because she doesn't;Have this other data7 5 A that's* right. ,6 Q. And apparently that'was siipplled to tha satisfaction of the other .r - + ' 7 members of the coimltte that whan that other data was avallabia that there 8 wasn't a prebtaa? 9 A That's right. ' 4.L 10 .Q, How, do yea know whether Dr. Hair was made aware of the resells 11 of the 8(e) eaanlUee consideration of her report? * .i 12 A I don't know for a certainty or parsonally, but I assume that 13 she was because that Is the practice. 14 Q Do you know, I take.It you wouldn't know one way or the other 15 whether she took Issue with that and reported It to the SPA herself? 16 A I don't know. 17 Q How, the Hay 31, Hay 22 study or meeting on 2,*H)f Involving the 18 2,^,6~Trlchiorcpbenol, If you recall, we talked about that a little bit f .h *' 19 earlier, that's Plaintiff's 127S? 20 A Yes. 21 Q At one point In that regard that Hr. Carr mentioned to you, you 22 Have Plaintiff's 1288 up there. I'm sorry, not 1288 but It's 12?$. I've go 23 It right here, let mo hand you Plaintiff's inhibit 12*#, sir, and have that 4 24 out thare along with Plaintiff's 127$. 12?# fs-- you Haven't found 1275? 1 A X think It' here, yes, X have it. 2 Q 1275 is the memorandum, is that an April, air, X don't have a 3 copy la front of ae, but-- 4 A 12757 5 Q X'n sorry, X meant 1243. 6 A 1243 is dated April 10, 1979. , 7 Q And this Is the sieiaorandum where Dr. Wilson Is discussinglevels 8 of dioxin that had been found in 2,4-Diehlorophenol? 9 A Heading is In chlorophenol, but I assume that's right, yes. 10 Q Okay* Lst.se just get that out. Bov, X believe Hr. Carr, vhea 11 he was asking you about this memorandum made reference to haeardous levels 12 of dioxin in the 93 percent Dlchlorophenol. How, does Dr. Wilson's memo 13 use the vord level In connection with the word hasardoua when he talks 14 about contents of 93 percent DC?? is A X do see a place where he says not chronically hazardous. 16 Q Wall, the first paragraph there. 17 A Oh, okay. 18 Q There is one, he says, "One lot of 93X DC? say contain hasardoua 19 chlorodlbencodioxlns end dlbenhofurana"? 20 A ?*. 21 Q . the word level is not ,ueed there? 22 A Ho, it la hot. 23 Q How,'this memorandum did-go 10,,Dr* Callis, did it not? L 24 A Tee, he waa one of the copyses on the aas. %k S* 126 1 2- Q And presumablyhe got it shortly after April 10 1979? A Yes. ; ; \,V_ ' '3> - Q Before the meeting on2,4~Dlchiorophenoi on Juno 6,. 1979, 4 Plaintiff*e Exhibit 1275?. , ' 1 5,' J '6 A Actually, the meetings were Hay il end Hay. 22. Q Right, And in feet Dr. Callls was a participant`in that 8(e) ?'; acting in June of *79 when you considered 24~biehlorophenol with regard 8 to the 2,4^6-Trichloropiienoi content? ? A That's right. The twoaac tings in Hay. V 10 Q And if ho had. any concern about tha level of dioxins reported in - "il' ' 12 13 . 14v' Dr. Hlleon's memorandum, certainly ha could have brought it up oven at that ' 1 V'- ' \ ) 1 1 . *' , meeting, couldn't lie? - / ., /^ A That's, correct. K ' ' *_ t * "" `\ * ' Q Nov, when you consider one of these chemicals or a mlnturo, sir, 15 at .one of those 8(o) msutings ,and you era detertaining whether you have any 16 information that reasonably supports the conclusion that ,there is a substantial yv - : * "V* * \ `1 " , ' ;, ' 17, risk of health or of injury, as an example, in the 2,4-Dichlorophenol, when - 18 you have a finding of nine and a half or ten parte per billion, Z think 19 you have told us earlier that you look at the level, at the whole chemical, 20 ` mid the various levels of the.chemical; is that right? 'v: . \ , J 21 ' ' ' ' 22 " *?>'c\ y j'-;;. >**_,';\ -ivv ' i f} '.V. 1\ '>/r;-AV - r- *v.r,L [1 U '' ' ` i'- " .V 5 '-*? >j ,* ` ' '. .:/ L , ., */ .i Q And whether thsro is any evidence that that level, Ig there any ' f^v }? A ' 7 V ` 23 . information th.tthat level'praaenta thio kind of risk, tha' policy talk. . 24 ,J about; io that right? *. ' < ?.'^ i \i v* rrj-v-viTjy.tt,*,1'->: ^ ZOO LO * r ` M p : '1. 'l , r V ,,3 - >A ;. m , Q 27 ; ki r, That's righe* P' v ^;-r- ' . , ^/v.rpvv pj' 1 1V ' vv,. v ;''v\,'^ V>" P; '' ' J . ` . . ' ; And In to. doing, sir., do you make any assumptions with regard toexpoeure of peoplatothat level? , -p', Pv; '>1' *JV A , That vould b di8cuecd, ye8* ; v'sv ^ _p Q Wall, it exposure .to this ten parts par billion at. chat level, ; ; * > V;: ' * 1v , V p P v , " v , ./*-' ^P'V v V 6'-/ t it that sasuned or la that: not assumedv.or just how do you look at exposure i ..r . ' V1 - ,1_ ' ,/'t-: ^ ',// V - V '' ' ,, .V--. > ,, .r ' L-"- * * " ^ V ' T1 j f.r I 1' ' * - \L ' * jJ "' J , ' *: I ,; p pp v whoa you are looking 4a& a partlcular lavel inaproduct to sea lf there vV',' i ' ., ' 7 ` h v.p.; ' v P P `n ' . . w ` .v - .. . was information or you have information? V ,. 8- -,. ' V ' ` J . " ,r S -,, J. ' .. | 1 V -. / . . r 1 V ;" . r , : v-j 1 cLr.1 r .v'j- . y.'v 'v ? - , r "r >- .// '!, ^,,7^> A As Z racall, .cblorophenol iteelf ie a toxic naterial. Ahd so tha " L ', / 'a .. .. . 4 ^ ^ . / ' ' ~ ' - ; i0: _v . '* " . V1 ' :v. ' \ . ,.-.io 1': oxpotura to the chlorophanol la a concerns as vall aa exposure to anything 1 -V'.-r ^>'^-^1 V.' . `v "T ` ; 1 J ' i, ' ' r " l -, , 'T ' ' L'" . , j `J ` ^ ^ T - . . ' p . n / alte tbat oay be part of it* ;As X recall, any toxicity that could present ; M 2 r a substantial riik of iujury would be considered by, the toxicologist* FORM IL' 2* B u / -' 14 . v.. Q ^ At the lavlt involved?.; J *f' i' t w, " \ -- . L * ^ ' V > J ^ 1\r , 1 - ' ' * ''C ^ 1 ^ p rt" " -^ A - ^ . ^. Yes,'that's correct. - W \* J - _ ,: I * i, V 9^ -. ,J -l , lJ - J ,. ' ^ 1` ^ \ ^ ^1. - L ' ^, , - -s " " J , h* j , - s.. S` " ' .p is; ; \ .Q Hou, Hr* Park, Mr* Cart asked you about Plaintiff's Exhibit 1300. - -. / . ' v "r ' l V ' ; t L r '' r ' f," . '/ . `V ' . .' V , ;i..` * l " !'' . '- L '16 , Do you have that, sir? - That's-a isiaao off Dr. Wiloon to th filo regarding a J* i ' . ^, 1 rf J f- .'3 **f H j * ^ 9" _ ', ` : -/ 17 ': tolapkona coavarsatioa with Mr. C.T* Harvell and Dleisond Shaisrock dated 1 18 , Saptaobar;17, 1981. Do you hav* 300 in front of you now, air? 19V i*'\ > " (t/- ,+ Yes. I do; l'*^'- ' j. ^ '1 ^ * ;' \2CV 1 'J y-, itv Q And Mr* Carr pointed .out to you therein a rafern, I believe ^ ^ rrT*' : ' ' " / J.! < ' f * \ .A -- l I ' V ; ,, V, V '^ v; it's- in-'Paragraph^2Vw^ra^It^sayaytlmt.Cnade 'vili require, a:1 ppb Itale .' ^ `'22 ` on all chlorodlbontodloxins and 2,4rD soid there after 1982? .. . . i i.x i ~ ' V '.f 1 -j : ' ' 'i-'t*' i-* *'' Ir ' F * '. , T ; '2^'[ ; ^A > v, ) t V <S K - i 1 ' *' -''' " ' V , , , . . ' taay;x aae that; ' : ,v^- ' . . '; , - _ ' > 1Z . ' -o - ..24 - \ ] p: ipCpefendont'a: Exhibit;885'was .marked for identification.) 11\ ,'\, -' i .a 128 '-lV;` ; ' ; Q Banding you now What's been surkad'as Defendant1 385 Can you , 2 '1 identify that as eletterfroa Dr.Wilsoa to thieaaae gentleaan, it would 3' i.''" 4 'i appear. Hr, C-- or Conrad Harwell? ... "A V > Aa y , y s a* > . ' *' ** * , , ,< :* r '=^ ,r ' i vN , Aa <-.A . -A Vr '; ;a '., ... \ 5'' Q Andtbis la dated January 191 1982," aoaie What, throe or four '/ 6 \ aontfcs later? Aa ;A A A' ' r ' * ^ cf -- AV'/ y ^' 7\; A,"' That'c correct. iA-AA ../'A A ^ - ; "" 'i . \ ' A , 1' ' V -.A*'. > _ " ; \ * - = 8-'- .. V i * 1 Q ' And do you know, air.whether thiaraquireaent that Hr.-- or Dr. A'./' ' A "k':` A A A ;-''\ ' , "l L> 'A''-' A -.V f; - " "' 'Y'V 9A .Wilson referred to i n .September, the eshibit:that Hr. Carr introduced, vhethjsr ** * ,, ' " Ll. - " *= * k r* " A* , ^ L [./'' * > r 11 + ^ \* L } 41 . l' - - 1 1 " 4- V . ^y " `* j' 1L* f r <_;> f ' 1 'that was changed or not Or imathar that was a raquireaant that In fact had * * * <> v 1'-- i>, .- . + J ' AA 1kv"" ' \ 'r . a ;a L- / ^ - a .,, A .* -A A" A ' - A.' `- -J y''Ai\i- v bean put into,operation or uaa only suspected to be put in o p oration by the l ' V l 2 A "Canadian government?'' i -T- v- ; "/ 13 Ar A 14';} w h at. ;.A . a "Q I don't know anything^about it; vhether there vaa apeculation or A". . 7' ; `A.-- -A A ^ A ' - - '- - A A A - \ - . v.- A ; ' A ''" A -' " - A-. .A.' a "A - ' .A ' ; _ But i& any event in the Jenuary 18, 1982 lettar of Hr.;wilaon to PENGAD C O ,, BAYONNE.-N,J. - 16 Hr. Harwell, at'Dleasnd Shamrock, in the;third^paragraph,doaa he reference :} \'\i\ ; t h is Canadian goyerhnent requlrem ent? - a jV;; u- -- , A-- - A a a 1'1n. , k A T e s , he d o e a . , *:i^AA, a - / > A " v t -j, ^ ^ ' 19^ '* L` r ^ A >* A;- . 20 v " *. , ', ^ .A `A ' , A Q Would you read th a t t o u a , p leaae? -''A-% ,:i' >. ^ A V< It eayaA ,5Baeed 6h l980-1981'v:experience with 93 ,percent 2,4-Dlehlot:or A 1a - - i i" * A - 1 A '" ^ -Li . ^ ' `- A f 'k ', v . > - X ,* ' - A r L o J' - , j - . 21 ; phenol production, %m can provisionally guarantee that the suucistun concentration \ 22:/ Kj * 11 - o '1, -r A r '23/j ;'4` r 'A; r^v >i.A:^Af5^ Va T ^ - a *^ S- '.'2a a ,A. * a -' of any chlorodihenrodioxinAcor^bundwill, be 0.01 perta par ailllon in v "A V - - A ''-A* .-A ' . . v . _ v accordance with Canadian governcant requireaento." / >;; J ^ -A :' - V' A- \j Q A fT e A ' a :I.v T / A v *` :A , A - 0.01 porta per eilllon,1s that the ease aa lO.parta per billion? ^ 1 ,, - i 129 -S ,'i.r \ \ . i- ' .t .' . 'V ' V ' ' `` ! ' , Lt` ; " <' ' , V* ', ' ' ' ,* ' SV ' ' , 1 ' " i i. 1 f ... T J t . ' * '/ , ., r l-7`; k That1o correct. ; ' .y 'V - :> 7 . --- 1 \i '* ';2-"V. { Q r pl. * r And.for'any ehlorodibehacdioxih'cotapoind'would nen for any!ieraaejr ^^ '* 1 * . f j j - ' *\, 7' 1 i +. " v ,, , . r .< \ 1 ' SL 1 *' y of dioxin? L L- - \ 7 \ ;* `ii '..-ly 4` .. 5 6 7" A I would uiusi'ioiy j 1 7*-.'., \`f ` 7 y - " Q And thereore 75 leoaera of dioxin, or do you, know that, air? ^ V ' '- 'J Vs' ``7 7*/ ` '* ; A 7 .1* not that fatailiar. V y v - 7 tf. ' ;-C7w*> > 7 7 7 ^ 7 7 . ,V'L 11 / ' 'y Q .Uell, if there wore 75 .iaomere 'of dioxin, than that Would be o ', L- Halt of total dioxinsnaxisnim anyway, of 750 parta par billion vrouldn*t . f{r* K: : ,y. . y.'*;> V : -, *' ; - ,f ' \ -. v .9 ^ :it, .ae long aa chay varo apraad out at no pore than 10 per lacalar? ' : ; .lo':, A That ^correct. 7 ' 7 _ y*. -`7 7 / 7 ^ .. 7 7 ' L'- ( -V ny Q Ko7, If .tha Cftoadlan govarnsent, you do underotand at least9 air, ' 'r \, \ . ' .' * '>"' ., ." 'i' , _ `J\ I rt r " V J' y _ '',V;12 that tliara are coma laoBafp of dloxln'that have no, tbat tho paopla eay have 7,7' .^7 .*. -*> 1 ,/ : 13 * vary llttla toxicity you underotahd:that? v ^ \ \v`v -1' ' \ v14 A., I have baon told thati. yoo, plr* 1 ; 7 i`7. : 7.'- .L 7 15 - ;' Q ,And cpEo o f 'thoae erc even the' tatra laoiaara? 7 7 7 1^ `v*! ' .16 j. *7 ^ A 7 :iVvohaardthatjyca. \ tt"{ V7'7y>7 L 1 V,( .y ; p v .Q s- ` . And you kno7 vhy tho Canadlan govarnaent vould than parsolt, if in ' : - * ' , V' > . -- ' -.L y ` ' j . r ' , : . ,, 18 fact thla la vht -Canada''is** doing, why they would permit 10 porta per ' 19 billion of 1, 3; 6,8, but no. taora, nd aaaus:that 1, 3, 6^ 8 1 s e very . > 20 '. s-b '/* f t l,-'!T*1' % .aontoxic dioxin, leidd)yet-^-C" t'S ` *. / >i ;; e'., H v'7 ^ r ' .-v v ^` -> f1'1' ' 1 `.\ `; :. . ,* iv . n ' 21. . ^'v-. HE CARR: Your Honor, unless this witness knows that the Word . - u:\/;S i>.h {'%;. -i-- v .0 .-- ''22 \ coispotind ?ie. equivalent jtovlaiaar,^haa. the Court seen this exhibit? ` 23 .... \ 7; ''* ` . - '24' ; . - THE COURT: 1 have a copy of. it. .^ ^ fv '7%"'7-Vy v--7? v . HE; CARE: Veil, ! Object to it . - 7--; .` ./ rK'i 1 . ' -,u. lf*e claarly not tha noanlng i` V - ' 1 of the document, It says the .maximum concentration of any chlorodlbenso 2 compound. Compound scans;11 counsel* , 3 MR, MUSGRAVEx Well, then Mr* Carr, let's look at the letter 4 from Diamond Shamrock* I vent you to mark this-- '5 MR* CARR: .Counsel, I'm referring to this one* It says compound. 6 MS, MOSGHAVE: Well If you vent clarification, Diamond Shamrock-- 7 veil stark this one* ,' S .MR* CARR: Whet Diamond Shamrock means this la Monsanto, era you 9 bringing In somebody from Diamond Shamrock to testify? 10 MR* MUSGRAVE: That's a letter from Monsanto to Shamrock* 11 ^ - - * -,"L , 1* 1: t THE COURT: Gentleman, could you approach the bench and bring 12 that up? 't , 13 (The following proceedings vere held at the bench*) 14 THE COURT: Okay go.ahead. 15 MR. CARR: Tour Honor X yould object to the use of this document* * r 1. * i 16 It le not-- the person here Isn't here to, explain the meaning of it. It's 17 clearly hearsay* - It Is not ay understending of.It* They describe here 18 five parts par billion for the aonoehlorodloxln Isomer* that Is not an 19 isomer, that i e o n s o f t e n -- r ff ' i_ -* 1 f 1 ' * 20 \ MR.Li^GRATO:--'TiwV';1" 21 l fc ~'*r t*\ ~r " . i 1 "v 41 ' k* MR, CARR: There, are eight nocochloro, Monochloro does not '' .> l, ,-**.. .. : y*0 '- _-< - " ./ 22 describe an Isomer. Isomer is described by l-2, 3 6 8 or 3 4, 5, 7. 23 Monochloro means Cl^' is vhat it means; And Dichloro Is Dlj* And the pereoi 24 that's using this using rev materials/Is a rev materials buyer* He la not f :/ ^, 131 ;.jn r J i -eT, her*. Z can't etoi M i n i j i k to pointout what this document means 1 2 -;t t H * end this is strictly hearsay and I would object eo the ueo of this document 3 with this witness without thesuthor of it bare being subject to cross 4V\ euffidnstlon. ^Jv'/*'v rv - J;, ;;- '\ ;'*.` > 5 -v:.;- "V/ M o .'MUSt^VEif' Tour^Honoii :Hri. Carr has been permitted throughout V"W : } \ j .S ' ';i- - 6 k thecourss of this trial to introduce documents end evidence over objection i ^ ' r - t / ; V . - j .` F - i ' - j ` ft i V i , , " ( .i ,'1 , and .have .witnesses/that; neither?authored,thorn nor have seenthen before.,, *8 ; 9// y,, 10 / testifying as to What they contain* I cite to the .'Court the most recent J , - 1--s -,i*'-*?>,tC.i? \ tiv,{`v ?-yr!*;'* / L" - '. " " 'l |.5 *P / / U.l il >i^Vi '\ v." r 1 . > *. . exenple of the letter received from the Departoent of Heelth, Education end ;Helfere received by Hbnsim&b employee atteching en enelyele that I objected lit; ,r . . -jLn-4't/iS' / .t. '.j ` ; ;. to vlth thie Court* It seens to no that'the position of this Court is that 12;'" thaaa docusento are eveilebie for use to'examine the witnesses with end V '/'V... " 'v. ; .... .. a : - / ', . :" ' 13 " l' C' J 1 ' I.*;'' ,.1 ** " ~" Kr. Cerr hee "put at laaua by/his Introduction; of another exhibit what th* ' \14 Canadian govetment level wee' end we ere bringing this in to further.. FORM TL H 0 BATON N E, N .j. ,0 7 0 0 2 ' 15' clerlfy whet Stonsentofa underetending of It was* It was im improper , J/i g ; A hl l"^- *"' I 1V 1'JL" "- 1 " *i*\-z*. " h - ** t- - L ' ,1. A V ^ ' ,V V *- P ^ 1- * . ' | t ^ element to.be;admitted st. the beginning.; The Court hes permitted It to come ; >, 1?/. >. *; In without substantiation as to whet the" requirement was, because it was r,: Vv; r'^ . 7l`. 1 ^ // V . ' ; ' '/ . /'18-*. ,hearsay without -the requirement, without soaeohe! to eey what it^wss* ,How ,-e- f / " v-'V-';-/-;/: - ' .s - ^ / `-/; ,/,v19' , I 'm bringing in this to furtiier clarlfy.it //, - ; /'' -' r' ` *'0 > - 20 HE. CARE:V This is en entirely, different elttietion end counsel ; ;/2i knows It. Parts of:their record.that X want to uaa appropriately to ,,22^- impeach this witness on, e pertleuler thing, he used that ibeesuse he, this J t l. .. ; .?."-i . , ^ . ' r . L- - / -*, l "3 O 23;] witness polnted out it vas a document that was. sent by Honsantd. It was V /l* j my -v A* ,, " '.s- 'v - r v '\ '. `24V; dealing with the dfoxln content of /a 2,A**Dichlorophonol product . *It is an 132 . " -Vj1' entirely dlfferent.altuatlon, that exceptionCo tha hearsay rule is a ' 2 entirely different situation than wbst h a ,If asking for; Be la saying in ~ , *3 . 1 - T 'y 4 , affect oince there areaxcoptlcms to the hearsay tuia'th hearsay rule le deetroyed sud therefore this"Court should allow any hearsay into evidence 5 ' no setter what it night be* hie document they ere, now. seeking to put into 6 evidence does not nset any of this exceptions to the hearsay rule of which 7' Iva^-aware#'':^ U V X - ` `i' 'v 'i- * "j - r* 'i ` ` t r i i" ^ f* < ** t" - ~ ? tir ` 'r -X I * ' *j 1r ^ J\ T k* ,a .4 _ *' ' 1 .. - r ` ^ .v Tr K ' - /. v . HE* HDSGBAVEs I refer speciflcallyto Plaintiff's Exhibit 1300 " 9 J**. , T ` ' -* >f-, > i'V`" " ' -'4. `` ` `-r /i -where counsel wan permitted co erose examine^ with regard to Canada;s ' 5-*' -,-r \ 1 i' -.""'v i /r>' ; ' :'1Q , - ` t f f ' f rt , i fp r t ft \ * ^ > L fp V *_r i (' i ' fi \ '' requirezaent^ and as' entitled to clarify that -' , ^ tv: '! , , " ,k % >- N > ' - , > ' , Xt*e hearsay: in that ;v jxy docts&snt It's vint Canada'a requireaenti is and it as permitted over > V 1 ' i v r ^ ' A r - ^ ^ 4 ? r v rw.i `. % ,. . 1?;' objection sndvX 'aS 'Certalhly entitled tp go into it to clarify it vlth . 13 > 14' v' 11 vhat would ba et tba very least considared to clarify ite admissibility* -(i.(*; - / x;,; w M t i " > X ME. CAEEi T don'tobjeet to you trying to clarlfy it, but not v IsX with a hearsay document; ! do not object to you uslog dim Hilton's , ; ' /X " ! 'i'"' `-y;; \ . V y ;`6;. doenent Honssnto Exhibit 885, which describsa it as one part par aillion 17. of any chlorodibenrodioxln coapound, and that'a the Monsantofs description : 18 y> * V/' of it* You ere not trying to go beyond that* I. could have objected to tha > ;i9v, r ; 20 A - i * ` .2y Monsanto exhibit, bt I didn' t the Hilson exhibit counsel has objected to i. r '' r ,'( ' u ^ V ' r. j ; i *- 1o * ' ' ' - einilerly in the pet. But I dldn1fe, but l do object to a docuaeut by eobody that l e hteriel buyer Who ie, not here to b erose xaalhed ee r .,22 . 23, 24 to Whet he neene when he eeye monochlorodloxln leoser*. There le no ouch leoaar ee e aoGocM.orodloxin; iacvier* vThe dcument certainly can' t apeak1 for ltealff and I certainly'would,want to: be ehlc to erosa egamine on that. ,V P EN G O r CO.. BAYO NN E, N.J. 07001 133 1 2 '" MR* M0SGRAVE: May we at leaatraark this so the record can , 3, reflect-- ',-`- ,T " *(" , .V H u.,. M '-'-'.'. , i `` ^ '. ... ` 4' - .S' 'r'6 v . THE COURT: I'ta going to sustain the objection to it* I think. - - - " '7./-'' iV-v': j t ' v J' you' are right as .far as.hearsay; * ,-e *, / '. V ., ;* - L J ,- " * L ' \ < * i ' 2'" "'r ^ .P n t /' " ^ (Defendant*s Exhibit 806 was Eiarked for identification.) ^ -1 MR* MUSGRAVRt Tour Honor, ay-the record rcflectthat theexhibit ve have just, been talking about has beeh;marked as Defendant' Exhibit886? \8 !? ^ , r \ THB-COURT: Thank y o u . . J' '.!'>" tv ;^:r. _v. ;v;v-- "v , " .. . ' < ,10- ?v:;:'*__ (The following1proceedings were held,laopen-.Court j v n 1 '^'1!rV'-h b 5cr ^ . i;^ \ r` 12/ * '1 ,Q Hr. Park, do you have Plaintiff1 Exhibit 1295 there, the - 13v iseBorandun thatyou vrote toRr. Paget In June of 1979? v - v 14 `A I don't.believe spi-V o"\;j i-.* v; ' . '[[,' ' ` -7 " f * "T *,"$* -H * ^ J j ' ` 2 fi ^ y~ i *1 ` J K k - ' 15 Q Well,' the clerk boo gotten it for ue Let ne hand that to you* % - ,, , I' V L- I ` L- V *, s. - > . .I > *3 ' ' t V- S C. rj , , '" ./ HR* CARR: What's' the exhlhit nuabor, counsel? L 16 ,-v. ' ^ .. . MR*. jKOSGRAVE: Plaintiff' 1295* V 17 ' 18 ' Q - And air, now^ thia memorandum of yours dated June 11, 1979 H: <^ , 19 'references, a iheico iron:G.E*P* That*s 'Dr,.'Paget, is lt?r ;1' V'* . . - : 20 ' ; `A fi That,8r correct* ,: '.v -v\., ^ v' f^iv' v - ^ v ;V x\i' v / ": L ; iiv.t ', 21' ' . Q Dated.June 11, '79?. . ' i., .. ^ ,,V A ?4 ` ; . -v ' 22 1 v- , . *-i-7 V s-V 11 V`, ^ t- ^ ^' \* . 'V . ` '>23 ' . 24 f L QA l (Defendant's Exhibit 887 waa ciarkedLfor identification.) . 4'4JH 1 ) ^ 4 7 o 1M?'r4s;: DPeavrik\", .1l4Aehtv mma&-** thiaani^fd4 ^ vytoaiui nwVhaatf'*s ^. now kbaeaef*ns mtos#aVr'ikie^d- t ansst" v1a Defendant's < ru '3NM0AVa v'-v v - .-' `,'1 1 N>\> '2 *' -, .L,\ ' .t ^ `"Mv -!v ,t` L' 1 V ^tV`; ' .1 887. I t that the .raeiitorandun of June 11, !'79 of Dr. Paget that your ;/ ;2 ' laeoormidum of the eatoe date, Plaintiff's Exhibit 1295, reference*? 3 '7^;A Ye*. r- 7 l:V \ .. <. r;.v. ,,. ,v :' 4 Q r;" What-is the subject natter of Dr Pagat*a June,11 zaemorandtna ,5 that you are responding to on June 11? -i-'* 'j - L 6 ;; A Attached.to Dr.,Paget*c June 11th, 1979 memorandum was what I . - would take to be.tils draft pfftproposadlpoaifcion statemsnt,^! guess, ' * -^ 8 `r.'U '' - - -' '-' ',* ,/t''1 vV .r* - ' v :" 'v relating to dioxin, and he circulated to the nuaber:of people, Including iaa, 9 and asked for our:cosssant on It. . ' .; / 10 Q Okay. And Is that proceed position paper attached^ to, yeah, 11 there It;is'attached. ,.;`.r"L/'- 'r;;-.-J* \ ,J '')>-,.., `` 12 A" J.It;,4a^uia.lHam, r /-'V ''l \ 13 / V. . *!'f-rJ :l ' '3 ' Y ,.y-'X"* \*_ . \ ' Q And do you recall just generally the content* of what he wae 14 J` ' - j'`' t1-'^^-r-.-yv...'`- J'.l> ^ vA.^ .' .u,, ' ` l suggeatlng^ or irould you care to take a nlnute to reed that -so,that you 15 can becoiae fatx&llar with it with referance to!.what your reaponse was? 16`. y,\ l *. 'A .V v.^ : * r l.i?'v `* .iSi'#.'' Let ne;take one.loinute. . . ^ 1 17. ,' XUE CODRT: If.thle is a;goodrpoint, why don11 We take a real 18 - short break? ' -/ ''" ` \ y/-V" ! /" '\Jr'"-' :'7 19V ,20 i1 -i : * H\r 'R.r.vM'jU*Si.GH;1AitVEt::,/` It '>t . "w-\yi`li-lI,la1'b1e^.fii:t1i>en-*>i1 y*omimu,,vsr, Hon. o-r. tJ'^: '**."^, -. ' - C.n, V}' ' ) ' . y . i i . - ^ ';XHE^COUBT: We will take*a ehbrt^break at thistirae, very short, 21' land the ad*oni*bn*nt* 'that i hsvc given you earlier will apply during thie < 'v;- : 22 ' bread--k.also*r -the *- Courr/t IS in repc-ess. *i 7 <** , 1 V i/ N. ^ 23 ,, U (At. this tts;-Cou^was'in recess.) v.^.- 24 BY HR. MUSGBAVEy '`; - ',L 1' " ' vs.- C J"')`T,/ -cll-,-s-b'., ' <' L v s - '1 1r- ..,, 'ss^ 7-^is -".,A,'.s-O*'1.'. t-Cr'- .1 S ,-1-s ->i '-,,,,> ' Jl ^ i V* ^ 135 1 Q, Now, Mr. Park, youhijve had an opportunIty to review Defendant's ' Y r* . ,, t? 1* ? f ,2. . ',\ 3 4 5 Exhibit 887. which Is the June 11, I979 omo of Dr. Paget which you ,- - * ,#*' \ * 1, k } ' V ^ " - j* *' responded to on June 117 ir " " ` #t 1J * * '* ! ^ fc ^ ` \ "-4 . T J A . Yes. . ' ;` . r. - , 1x. r j * Q Now, whet was the general thrust, ff you Will, of the nature of '6 Dr. Paget1s memo of June 11 that you responded to? ' ' \ . 7' It contained a.number of propose!s concernIng possib1e Internal l : 8' ,, f-\ L r ' efforts relating to dtoxln. ? -j / ,n ^ ). - " l - l ; 1 ';r . .r 9 Q. And specifically, with regard todetection levels, was there 1 anything stated In there? J . 1 . 11 , A ' Detection levala? j 7 . ` > ... 12 13 \ :<l A 'Yes. ' P ;. * L j ' , , "*, * _ * i /. * kL ^ ; H* does, he deles speak of, oh, yes; sorry, detection levels, there 14 15 16 17 j ' ' 1.8 Is a paragraph In here. It Sjsys ^analytical position11 ,- t 4^ ' -r ^ f " 1 ''T ; * k d' All right, sir. -.7 ^ . 1 r i ` r " ,s ^ ,t 1H L . i,., 7- ^ ' A It s^aks a bit, quitbVa hit, about seme people claim t be ' *- *, ,, . - t. , ' " "-'i' '' 1 r . , "i ^ * , , * : ---' , ^- , j "` - *r 4 n ft finding specific tetracH1orolbenxodlcKlnLIsomers at levels Fpf parts per * trillion,' and that this may well be lncorrect and goes on to say that -, !9 ,V . 20 ' *2'1, Monsanto should contlnue to refine Its analytical techniques, all present agreed that It was sound pollcy that Monsento should, I can't read lt very ri i - ^ IL I 1 1> , . ti well here, should Improve Its something, skill In this area. 22 0. So Dr. Paget Is essentially stating; that th posit Ion.should be one}) j '' * '. -r',, ^ , 23 of continuing to, refine, and Improve detection'1Imlts and analytical skiIs? 1 < ''7`f V\'J`*h ` , 1 1 j " 1 *'1 ^ i f i ** 1, V * ^ * <*' ^ t -' p 1 rj - 2 4 A ;And es, fi,road-11 t o ; g o iyay' deswn t such that concentrations of tti-J 'S','-, *-*. \ v , ,v ,*;- S :y* ,,>'i 1-*J -J--^ '] ' . 136 i dioxin could be found at and below the part per trillion lavai* -2 Q. And that memo was, than circulated to people for comment? 3 A That* correct. 4 Q And you were one of.those that got It? 5 A That's correct. 6 Q And Plaintiff's Exhibit 1295 wore the consents that you Biade? 7 . ; A That's right. 8 ' Q, And therein, and of course this Is a document that Hr. Carr ^ 9 examined you about, but only with reference to the.last part of ft; Isn't 10 that correct, the one sentence at the bottom of the page there? 11 A Yes. 12 Q, Well, let's look at the entire document If we can, Hr. Park. 13 First of all, In responding to Or. Paget's position with regard to getting 14 the levels of detection down lav in the area where you were talking about, 15 what was your response to that as set out In this exhibit. Plaintiff's 16 1295? 17 A In here, 9 responded and In so many words said that 8 felt that 18 Consento should refine Its analytical techniques so as to be able to UJ 19 detect dioxin down to a level considered by our medical people to be non- 20 hazardous, but once wa could detect It at a level where we felt ft 21 presented no hasard, then I advised against further refining of the analytical 22 techniques. 23 .' 's ' . ' J' ' l" Q, All right. .As]a mtter of fact', you say in the Introductory 1 ` i',i 1(**>,.* .r S 1,,' ' ,,. 24 paragraph on this as follows, do you not, MA$ mentioned at the meeting, I t-- r- *- <i` V.,v- / r ' *` i ^' *>lr1-^ ` J -t . 137 r amconearned that Monsanto not over react as a result of the news media 2 Infatuation with dloxln. .. ' r ^ ', *.V , i*t3 I1s,' a contaminant.In.soma products - .H L Hi ' '' and In sem' e** 3 Instances Is highly toMlc,but this does not mean that an'all-out effort ,? - r* 'j _ ( *( , 4 should be mads to detect extremoly low tsvots of dioxin In a product after 1 5. It has been determined that any dioxin presait 1* .less than the highest 6 nonhaaardbus level" Is that correct?/ ^ ^ /:-/77 . - ,i, 7,.' ../ A . Yes. / ' ; / / ' 7 ^ 7 ;............ . './ -../ /: \ - ,2 7':./ \ 8 d New you don't know whet that Is In any pertleulor .Instance you 9 roly upon the expertlie of others do you not, though? 7 ! _ + S _ ** H^ # ' , i V J> / * 1 10 *' A That Is' rights * 7 7 '' - % , .. . * . . . * * > j " ^ .... * 1.1/*' Q. ;Then; you go on and1state Immediately after that "developing / 12... unnecessary but IhfImnatory"'InfbrmatIonjmight be contrary to the best1. \ 1 ; ' 1' ^'V- / `i .-j * v: 7;.. .v. \ ,13 ; Interests of Monsanto and.the public.V Whet did you mean when you said that 14 developing Information which I;taka It you meant would bo getting Information 15 about dlotxln present below the highest nonhaaerdous level that that might 16 . be eontrary to/thc best Interests of Monsanto end the"public;how this 17 . - Is your opinion? .7..' -;* , - : , ' , ' f 18.' ' 7. A TblS'Is Just my opinion. .^ \ ,;7` - ' v -,v.'7 7 "' 19,, j 7 ;Q And you were eskl to state It and you did? ' 20; ' ./V'-A-.- Yes./* ;; f., "v.; .,/ J; ; ;77 . `1p*r *. \ " 1,, '" ," * 7, - '>*.* "* .7 - ,"j - , * - i,, ,, J . *S . ,^ I3 1 21 7 Q. And whet did you mean by that;sir?' Whet was your personal oplnloji 22 ' ^ E, onthet? ` 'i",3"'.- 1 /r ''*ir/ ^l "' / ' -" " v . ^ - ' *: ' 23 * k ; A 1What I had j n mli^'was ^ understandIhg would be, for 'exmp\m$ '.VK'''.:;/ / V ' :/ r * V % 24 ' ' ttat a given concentration of dloxinjntght be determined let's say. If the J, . . ' 1 J I ". * T* .. j ^ I l j ' -V .L . L` ' ' " . - 1 ' i `j ./ I A: V i `' " t L` X. ",1 i. i * * ' j. : ' < ' "rvn 1 fr'Ot.*.V" 1 .` . . .J 'f-. ' .. " -,1.. ' ' ,. >' ^* !v analytic! techniqueswsre refIned'sufficiently to be read one part per 138 quadrillion In aim product,'v&atever, assuming that that would be a level, eight well be e level far below what our own medical people would say would present any problem, at that level there Is simply no.problem that ^ * . . '. "* x> t can bo presented Here? 1'v ,/, , ' " ' A I felt at that time, and I think It still may be the case to a ' }, , i ' ' r `-. little dagroe, tlwt a-great, that some.of the news media.didn't understand about the toxicity of dioxin, that finding any, molecule of dioxin, would be, could be >fnfIcmcaatory'that some reporters would not understand, maybe some people In good faith would not understand, end therefore It could 11 ^ - ` j t \ r J 1 'i L r ^t ^ f 'j 1 i ,1 _ create anxletIes end concern where It was not necessary. . d Q. Including the public, In your opinion? . ; * .- .- A; *p ` Q. headless anxiety, yes, -right.. . v ... ^ ,,, />+ - >, *-* F i .. . - ., ** " ; ... -* And that's why you IndIcate of state here that the Inflammatory . ?Information might be contrary to the best Interests cf Konsanto end tho public?: . ... : ' A And the public, that's fight.' ; Q And that's Just your personel Opinion? ' 5, ( LI- 1I( ^ A That's Just my personal opinion. . d Then you gd.on,' sir. In the sksnorahdus; and I want to direct your `'i v..; - '1-r" " '' \ - attention to the lest paragraph there on Pagel, the last sentence of which Mr. Carr ashed you,about. 1 ..A >;U. tom., sj-v ^ ^ L' - ;" ' _ Q. ;\ And irt-thevflfst two sentehees In that paragraph, he first sentenice i`V ^ (y v rri V"',, \ .. . 1^ . . k' - v .- `* j - ^ - ; t. it '- i**1. j - > ' - \ ? i * 1 *' . . `. V r1r 139. 1 yo Indicate do you notB sfr, that ybu feoi it Is 1emportant for Monsanto : 2 to b capable o f monItorIng products and work plaas for dloxn and any *, . 3 ther substance which might bu consIdarad hazardous down to levait of which ^ ,," j " '4 It Is fait no hazard exists? ' < "' 4 "j - \ _ j 5- A Vas* I specificaily siate that. -. p ./ = k t *k 6 Q And than you say Hl do hofc fal lt is neeessary:to develop t 'r f" r -- 11 l *^ - ' ; 7 iwnltorlngamS analytical eapabHIttes io detect tha lavais of contaraInants ,8 at.levels below the hist-nonhazardous1eveM? .9 A Yes,; un born. - 10 Cl And thIs is the sentcnce that lmedleUly foUows that Hr. Carr \ ~i _ , ^ ki 1 , ^ ( il: examined ycu bout? * I-* f * 12^ Ves. m11 * , .i ' & 13 . Q Where you said Immediately,thereafter "l am afraid that disclosure V' V ,' : r- : '" ' ` /j'. *, ;-- t . -; - \ 14 to-government'agencies or the public that a contaminant has,been detected 15 in a product at parts per tr1111on or parts per quadrillion levels (far b*lc|* 16 the nonhazerdcus.level} wl11 merely add;fuel to the.'media fires which alreadjy , 17 ' *'-**' ' ' ' : rAi'w** r- V , - V ' - burn furiously;1' Now.was that espousing or stating that you had an opinion 18 of a policy of nondisclosure? . : .' , ^ J :' - 19 A L' On absolutely.not; /v'.,-"' T, 20 ; 0 Doesn't this.toply.-thar^ypii would fee-disclosing these things? ; 21 Yes. >! / . *- . 22 ft !' Etoif. vour caRcarn.wasV ndapononal opinion, tin t I f you ware ,23. ,, - iX-,?'--r.^i'ivx,V1,!'iV" J - ' ,'Lv;T - - ' i, ''U';J >'-. ` t i' --' J- , . ' f 24 detecting at levels for below what the technical people said cotilticoncaivab|l ^ t V - -^rt-'i , ",i ' '' . be any rIsk^ thatvbacause of3the dIffIculty In maybe educating people An yetjr , *.1 "i i!>J ' ` J 'i, * V'' ^ , j'i ' . 140 ^ 1 opinion, that all It wou?d\db Is possibly be hot In the public Interest and, .2 as you say, woutdaddfuel tothe madia[fires If the media doesn't under 3 stand? 1 ; -. !"/* * 4\.. A That1 right- * /" _ / 5 Q, There was no Intent[of a personal policy of nondisclosure In this 6 statement at al1'was there,:sir? ' ^i ^ -:. . *;.v 7 A Infact, I assumed that the Infoncatlon that would be obtained 8 . at these extremely low levels would bedisclosed. . [, 1 9 P ,Would be disclosed?/ : '. ' V* '. 10 A That1s'right. *: , 11 0. Mr. park, Mr. CerralsoaskedyouaboutPlalntlff's 1239A, which was a btew-upof .memo frcmDr. W5Ison to 0octor--We11,1 take It back, 11 iV 13 was Just a mamorandum of Dr. Wilson with regard to a report of e.consent 14 made by Or. Paget. You rtmenberhlmasklngyau about this? ,15 A I can't remember the specific question, though., 16 0, BMEH, -pry.Paget states that one part p e r>Ulion 2,3,7f i tetra- . 17 chlorodlbenzodloxln Is probably ^acceptable medically In Santophenf 18 A ^Yes^ , - 4'[J;t ...- v '[[' [ 19 Q Htw, whowoOld kncwin your opinion better whet Dr. Paget meant .20 v21'' 22 23 , by that In the cohteKt In which It Ms setd? Would you knew? Ward you r. ^ '^ . , K1 .'i * l - 1 I*' - ` - 1 r" 1 r 5 \ "' h1 ' , V *. ^ i f >r * ` present when that conversat16n;took plobe? .^ : a >.,' / H r i ; ' ... - v ^ A `.1f t o i - u h h u h . ^ > w ' ' '* *.*. / . ` ' _ 11 V \ ^ J ti *K f>. * "''i-> .1 - ^Ji*' * ""4* " ' * > ' * * *. 1 Q pf.>Paget'br Dr. WlisonicertelnIy know better whet;was saId, What 24 was Intended, 1V ^ - : '!'J\ - BAYONNE. N.J. ' OJ002 ,v> 141 1 . 2. 3 4 A Far b e t t e r . . . ' '* . Q And particularly Or* Pogct Would knew what bo had.In mind batter than anyone? ... -`A* _ Yes* Hewould. _ `''-/y V ; /" -',y/'y; 5 HR; KiiSGRAVE: Justbne mcmsnt* your Honor* Wo other quest forts 6 at this tle^i your Honor. ! 7 \ ; y THE CtAJltT; Kr.jCarr? v v ''8 V r ECAOSS^eU^IHATlOH:. , '^ 9 V* : - " ' *. a ** 1- ^ J w a r ": ^ f - s , ,, . `- y U ' ; y* " i" y ' 'f''-1 (i M ' h ' ' K` * - ` ` > * 1 0 - Cl >Hr. >Park, Ifj understand you!correctly,, what you meant In.the .-.11 12 13' 14* .1 5 Karoo that you.wrote wl th regard to Or. Zagat's, positIon. paper was that If one part par bill Ice of 2,37.3 TCDD In Santophen Is tn acceptable .level . and ft Is not hazardous* that you balleva Ho^sehto should not gat the . L - A 1- ' s'., ' ,j .. :' f|j :. i '< 1 '** , i.,J " ^ ,' ability to go down and detect less than one part per billion In the \ 1,, - , i - r > t` * t ' L , , . ` L. 1_ Sentcphen; Is that correct* sir? ;. V; ; .,v 1' -- y . 16 17 ; is .19 20 J\ . 21 22 23 A I was* really thinking of one.part per trillion. ' t 1*1 j. ') I'' * < ' r > d Excuse ne. . posed It to you? k * >l "J ' ". ^ 1 ^ I r r l, `* I r Could you answar that question* pleas#* sir* as t .a*'.;-* r ; 1v" ' yy 1. ' , i. 1 +**.' h i .t ,* ^f r > *. iJ r A : No* that's not correct* Hr. Carr. _ ^ 0, Than you'believe that Honsanto than hbuld have the capacity . . j ` ` .vs vV>* , { . , '* . to go and deteet thevorosehee of' dioxin In Its product-down, below what's 1. . '^ ' J" : v ii a - C- j : i v , ! -r> v - ^ Lr'. * 1 , ,-.t considered o nonhoterdous leval; Is.that correct,^ sir? - yvf. ,.-y? -Ty y - y y 1 ( ;,' r A :rm''Sori7f{{as ,1:Stafc^^ my'naRb*-.. " ; * .s '24. ' Cl Excuse 0, could you:answer thet questlon* please* sir* because ^ ' . **i\jt-v>,.'>;1 . , . r ' , Lf ' F O R M IL 2A B P E N G A O C O . ', B A Y O N N E , N . J . 0 7 0 0 1 142 you told u$ what you meant by that memo without referring fco lt when Hr. Musgrava Wes thing you and I m nsw'etklng you whet you Id In *- ' 1' ' I *,, ' .^ ' 1 I . 1" - ^ ,,-v 1 1 -T( - L that monoT 'n king you what you meant When you aid this a moment ago. '- ` * ''<> V - " >,r Are you saying;that' If one part per billion of 2 ,3.7*3 TCDD H o non- hazardous level, that Honsant need not get the ability, analytical ability to go and detect levels below on pert per billion In Srntephen? h1 A' That j.correct. THE COURT: I'm sorry, l^dldn't hear your aiawerw . ' Y V : ' f ! V ' 1.. ,A ! ^That Is correct*; ' V - ^ ' - ' *- v. ; THE CfXmT; Thank you.. ,; - Q. , And what you1re taying, then and the reason that you say Konsent . ' ;*.;> . ',, * . IM 1 1 J a 1,\ ^ , ,, v '' >- : ;j >' _ _ . - \ . *- v - . . v ,j. . . ~ should not lave the capacity to go below to,detect thing In Santophen below one part per billion Ithat the:public would learn that there are >' ,* . , '' ^*,< ,\- M L . ,* " . i i , ` . \ ` ' - ; W*'*n , , , I1/ ' f , *, ^ * * , V 1, , '' ... ' ' * lower level In the product through the media oh way.or'another. It Is not In th best interests of the public* I think Isthewayypuphrasad It, i- did you not, 'a .v\v - Isn't that the.way your phrased It? v . 'j i ..jfcl,' A Best Interests of Honsanto or the publlc. V ` Honshto or thd bidIte,,you equsteid the two,1Konsanto's Interests " 1- \ r . . ^ 1- . ' 1 f i ,, i J' * s i . ] , t - 11 ` . t`; : i t i 1 , end the public Interests eolncldh In your judgment; H that correct? Yasv "-i ' J'''l X V , ^ M v ` 'L\v - Vi- ir*- jfsj'*if'r>* -,*UJr'*: j j , - r ' Fj-- J Q' :f,;-H'.oiiw,i wha1.t,1you ra Saying-^Is.,t!:hVevpuJblfii*c ti.han should n'ot be told ^ ,,'v s * it'*, ' T1j,1 p ; ` / ' J' J 1 J {1 f 1^ 1. '" the fectsfabout^lkMisanto1 products because In your judgment this kncwledgU JO U !**,' -i js,,s' . . . . ,- , ^ i' . - *>' S. ^ : :/ - .H ' 1 M ,i ' would hurt the public for them to know!the facts. Isn't,that what you are `f:-v -.v x V,v FMlly ylng. Nr. rtrk? ^ ' * '" 1 L|^ !' ' .'<s'i l-,'1'' -,V'"4`, _! ; <'` ; ; > rr'r. .vhjlv*;; , , ` `V * 143 ^4* 1 1 - A No, chat's not it, Hr; Carr.' I'm saying I don't think we need 2 . to go to >the effort to further, .define analytical techniques to detect 3 the dioxin down below a nonhazardous level. 4. '] Q She only-- what you say is, I asa afraid that disclosure to govern-? 5 cental egcnciesandnot Just tho public, "that disclosure to.gbvsramsntal 6 agencies or tho public that axontaninant has been,detected-will rarely add fuel to media fires which already b u m furiously,M and what you era 8. oaylng there-- ' /, ' r- 9 .,sH-`Rv., MUSGt'R*AVE-:'.4. M rv /''j ^C'*var*r^, y o uj/aire,read,ing; that's-'a1t>those levels, , - * ' ,/ f i >* . j* >) , ' 1T .v _ 1- io Hr. Carr that's an lnportant part ;of that sentence. . '- ,. il. Q Well*. it ^says'xt,. purte/per trillion or parts ]per quadrillion 12 .-,, ..;.*&'<v**..'X*<' v--'v .. ..... ~y.* :. - _ . levels far belov the nonhazardouo level will merely add fuel to th V media ^ 13 flraa which alrady^bur furiously," that Is what you era saying, sir? 'V 14 Yes. ' '- t ' . '* ^ , /, " ' "V . k ^f ' S *-, 1w 15 Q Shat you don't think that you should disclose that Monsanto, first 16' of all, shouldn't .learn anything about its. product below what Monsanto -17 considera to bo.medically acceptable lavala because if It doss learn, it's s ` V- '-V ri .: 'j 'V-- - 1.8;. going to '1 have to * disclose ' it tjo4"t'h governme*nt1^al agejnci'Jeps ienpd to the public? * *,, 1 - \\ . , * -, _ l ' 'j * 19 A And it's a use of resources that could be used better somewhere .20, alee, parhape. V* ^v. , ' ' ^ ' ..-V r-.* 21 Q Veil, now, Hr. Park, that nayb e , b u t what you are saying hare, . . f < . * - - " ' T,, i- / 12' clearly, is whet you. are saying, le if you find.these things out you are 23/ going to have to t e U the government, a governmental agency, aren't.you,.sir? *, " t s / >- - 24'. .. A Could veli,, yes - w- . ` ` i i m T.-V, g And what you ara oayingiathat^Monantedoesn'ti-trust' the r 1*Y 2 : governmental agendas with .this knowledge, aren't you,/ sir? ,3 :4 ; , V" A Ko, no* ; .. ; ;V ,VJ ` s;. V -V ' - . - ' V v " ^ - V - , ' K : -- v . 'r r `V Q Then Why not disclose it to thegovernmental agencies, sir? 5 ' A ` T ad not saying anything ebout not di8cloeing, I am talking 6 ;' About analytical techniques only. 1 - V '.. " ' V j : ; / : J ^ ' * , j. ' ' >k ' \ r( , , ,v ' 'V" Q' 7 'v ; You are not taiking about dieclosing what youleara inyour -i' 1 r J* 1 ^ - 1r ^ ^ 1 i 7r ` , J ' ' ', j ; H -t ^ . r^ ,, i j- * - ;. * _ . j. . * / - 'a ^ ^ -, 8 - analytical technique to thfi;govrnsnt, did X reed that correctly, MX as . '9iS >' afraid that disclosure to governmental agencies or tho public will merely.'. V ^i ' >' C C & ( ( `;* ;V 10 . ;dd fuel to; the {bdioifiroiv-V, Didn' t y o u saythat? / V j :V ' , J . 'V ^ i *>-"*'$?"" ^^ J "V* ' -' -r , , 1",*'4\ ` '' r -, ` - ^ j< 1 h * \* ^ -',r J` ^ ^ \ 11 12 ? ,'V ,Yesi'>I *!a aB*uaing What: va find wouldbe disclosed. , MJ "* - I 4 r \ J 1 J * ^ - 1- ' \ '<, 1 ' >*,,.* _ 4 , f Vr L l ' * `i ' i , ' ' . ^ t-',V1 V''iji1 _ J ... . - rL* 'v 1 ; Q And %?hat you are eaying io .that you do not trat the governmental 1 3 -agecclas to*ahtjsreaponaibly.,,bn! this information that Honsant might detect t/ . t ' * ' *** v- * & * * _ ^ r ,t i i 'j 1 ^ ^ ', J '"V . ., . :V,'r '''''J }! -'V V ,,V .'.'' 14 and tell it 09 to thasa perteper quadrillion or parts pertrillion, aren't 15 / you,, oir? N. - t; h " . 1 ' l - J- r " j t ` '-sv1-1 v !V ^ ,16 V A . t?o, I am not saying "that * -L */. , ,^t --J ' "J'.; J1 K ' '1 >. / 17 q Then what other reason could you hnve for not disclosing? X is,;; can'understand Konaanto's not:trusting.the public, although X certainly 'don't agree with Honoanto*o not trusting thi public havihg the right ,to know "20'; I con underotancl vhy Konsanto could perhaps take that position publicly-- \2 - '22 '. L : , , HR. liUSGEAVE: Junt a moment, Mr.*'. Carr.'^ I object to .counsel's ;r - 'r'\ 'j ' ' .`V-.-vV . '; '' jJ ; "" ^ statcmifint. I t i e not a question, your ^>norf it is a speech and it's. 23* '`24M- improper ond l requeot that the Court,strika it and instruct the Jury torfr; y V `* y''- ' , 1 'i ' . - L'' . .'V, disregard it vith regard to his under0tanking of what Monsanto not trusting > ,5.* ; ^ ; ''iT^ -I ^ B A Y O N N E N . J. ` 0 7 0 0 2 - <. , ! 1A5 1 -the public, that1s totally inproper* t. ^ 2-` 3\ 4. 'J ,' ' 1 Q , ^ J ' ? -- ' / L,/* 1 , * ^^ THE COURT:/Overruled, -* .t\CLV [ ' ', ' 1 N> , . -^ ^ ; - , ,, 'V , ' * t ................ _ L` - \ L' . . , , Hr. Fart, do you ballavo that ,the public has the right to know' '* ' " . i ' * i m^ ^ whether or not Santophen has in It dioxin ct, any level? Do you believe the ''5 public has tho right to know that at whatever level it night ba that they are going to put this in the nursery, In a baby's crib? Shay reeoorand on - * * n. * ' - ' ` 's -p -' ; S: iU r j * \, 1 - *t ,, It; that you use It In the nursery and wash the baby's toys1with it* Don't you think that the public hac the right to-know whatever the level flight 9- be In thaprcduct? /.One part psrquantrilllon billion trillion, as low ss ^ < V* J . ^ { ^ 1i - f ( i ' i y 1' ^ ^ ' i< 1 1' ' \ J ' ' ; _v w >-*: ' / ' . / l . iV ^ _ 10 you can possibly detect it, don't you. think,they have tha right to know : k n. "-'' , 'fJ-1'5{ T ,>T'; "'V't,.//.*.;.!*AirtV*''*,'!\l^y I-'/-V'- .' ,,V - ` ***.t , r' that,Hr.;Park?} ->`' v rk'!s - L- * - / - 12 A ^ I don't sae tha .purpose that would, be served by**J i .o ^; 1 . " 13 ,Q I'a not ssklng you about piixpdsa. I'a asking you whether or not " 14, ,15 yon believe the public hae the right to know what they are ualng with thair . -^ J' ' vl -f" \t childran in the nursery* 16 To the axtant that infonaation la available* - 17, Q Than they do have the right to know, don't they, sir? ,18 A To the extant that infomatloh about it is avallabla. 19 Q And vhat you are aaylng is since they have the right to know, - 20'. "* '' r . 1 ' * , " ' '3 , ,, Monsanto should hot laarn about, quadrillion or parte per trillion contaninat Lon 21 .22 , 23 24 because if you learn about it, you ere .going to have to tall about it*:. Nov, that's what you ara saying, .isn't it, Hr. Park? A Once one goaa down below-- Q Isn't that what1you are aaylng, Mr. Park? P E N G A D ' CO!. B A Y O N N E, NiJ 4r\ ; ^ 1 A It was ay racoBssandation-- 2 Q Isn't that what you are saying Hr* Park? 3 A I don't think it's quit that so Hr* Carr* 4 Q Then would you explain what you are saying, Hr/ Park, if you are 5 not saying, "Hey# let's not find out what bur product has in it, because 6 if we find out, we're going to have to disclose it to the governmental 7 agencies end to the public and we don't want to do that* It is cot in the 8, best interests, of t^onsanto to disclose that"? Would you explain what you 9 do m&zu by that, "Hr* Pork? " 10 A " My'suggestion which, Wba not Adopted vaa that once wo can detect 11 dioxin at a level which Is considered, not just by Monsanto but by anyone, 12 , :. t *SFv. to be nonhasardous, then nothing io served by further refining analytical -. 13 techniques to go below that* How, that was really all Z was recoaaendlng*' ' 14 Q How, X ask you what you meant by this statement, Hr. Park. I 15 asked you whet you meant whan you said, "X am afraid that disclosure," when 16 you said, U1 do not feel it is necessary to develop monitoring and, analytics 17 capabilities to detect the presence of contaminants at levels below the 18 highest nouhasardous level* X am afraid that disclosure to governmental 19 agencies, or the public that a contaminant has bean detected in a product 20 at parts per trillion or parts par quadrillion, levels far below the 21 uoahasardous level will merely add fuel to the media fires which already 22 b u m furiously*" I'm asking you to explain to us what you mean by that 23 atatament, Hr* Park* 24 A I think there have been, this la peroonal opinion, X think there i . ..;; 0*, ' 1 have'been a number of instances of cedla sieimderetasdlbg about dioxin ` 2 toxicity cad I think this has worked to tha disadvantage of a number of r3 ' people ho have been given undue anxieties, tmneeeasary anxieties about ` 167 -. r * -W t/ \ ` , , .1 , '* -'7'; 4 7 their own health, as a result of possible or potential exposure to extremely fr ;s 76 7 8 , low levels* not just of dioxin, but to anything ' Q Kov* HT Park have you each any campaign by Monsanto or anyone ; , \ L . . .7 ` r ..., t; ' . ; 1 - 7 else to explain to the public that parts par,quadrillion Is not going to '.- . "i .vr-,\y <\ > v'* iif'-a' _. , 1. xL hurt you? ;Hava ;you seen anythlng llka that go on? ' 9. v. -> j ^ A' &0* ^ v '1 J / - -V j ' '7:i7 -/ - c 1 ...'r' . .'3 - & *u - 4 " r '- \y V -' L. ! ' -> * ' 10 '.v fAf * \ * *Vv- 7-7*7" f" . . -- Q ;;Have you Sean any<irresponsible press anywhere where they are , 11 saying that something other ;than thatthe BPA has saldf Hava- you seen any 12 daasgogua stand up ac^; say "Hay thaso things that you are talking about-- " 13 * A ' Tea. I ,think this has takan place at different places around the 14 country* whet I am describing hare. 15. . Q . That eoeabody hse said ill affacta that thay don't believe le a 16 ' fact end that ecientiate hove eaid thlnge that they don't believe are a.,, r < 7 17" fact* have you eeeh that? '- 18;; i Vjf u.*, . ' -,T`' - '* ^.-7 A ' ` X aa talking about the news media*. - 19 20" i. Q That happcns to be tha St Louia Poet**Dlspatch and the Belleville `r * ' ' " ~ TL >L ' ' J - <, . " F ^ t ' i v \ V, 1' T `* Hew Democrat and the TV etatione. "Have you aean theme media hare locally ^ , 2\ ; taka irresponsible positions with regsrd to dioxin eontamlustlon? -'22 , 23 r . 24 A I think st Love Conal thsra were socm instances>of this ditch vers pointed out* 7-. 7f , Q Could you direct your, attention to the question that X asked you? 'BAYONNE, NlJ.- ' 0 7 0 0 2 FORM IL 24 8 - `J r i ,- UB *' ts f H m you seenlostancee vhGre thft roat-'llltpAich or the Glob Democrat or -:2- :3 " the New* Deaocretor theTVeteticme have takes Irresponsible positions with regard to whet they ere telling the public about dioxin contamination A-'. in Hlesouri end eleevheret ;V\ , 5 . A X 'believe Z can't- recall it with great clarity but I believe , 6 the Poet-Diepatchat one tlsc put in an article that vefelt Wee infect, . -7 ; ;i- u 'y* V ; " u /a x ?r - j *'j > -V.>\ .Q- j ;itfeilynow^;betterticle7:vae actually e reprint ofvhat NI05E 1: ' 9- - f. ,, l il said wean9t it*/air?v> 7 -' i _/'* ~ *v^ '*? v *-.V<*-'>* -v^;*A- Z don't renesber that* y" ' \ ,r " *4 , - ,*=V- - `` r- - -L- , =' " , / v';, - / ' /. - . . J _`; ^ L l *1 . . * V_Q ' -Don't you;^neiD6er'rwhat''lt vae air, and that Hoheanto took a ,, 12'. `V> , 13 position contrarywicft on that?; This vae aonethlng that agovarimaotei * 1 ^, , ' * r. . ' 4 J- ,t - t tf . *- J J. ' ' V :fu ^ . agency eaid that they found in>St* Louie In truck y a r d * D o n 11 you 1,4 .15, v recell thet, iir* Park? " \ .. A. V u thinking of eooething differect fron that. Hr* Carr* -i 16 ; ' " Q Hell, vhet are you thinking of other than that, air? ^ 17 A L- I can't* like Z aay*.recall with great.clarity but ae I recall* 18 V there vae like a Sunday eupplement inaertlon in the Foet-Dlepetch9 lV" Q Oh, thet deelt vlth dloxln, there vee a losg action thet dealt' 20 vlth dioxln and you bellevi; thet the Po^t-Dlepetch dlatorted facte in that 21 Sundey eupplesient? .,v; ' 22 - ' 23 . 24; A Z can't racall.exactiy right now* J ' ' 1 ^ V ' vj; '' .; ^ Q How Hr* Carr aa a^.attar ol ;'fact -you know, that the Poet- Diepatch hee reported responsibly* you know that there hec been no demagogue ry K BARONNE, J i . S . 070 01 ' FORM ' 'l k I- 149 1 on; this, and what you ore saying then Is that you, and you wanted Monsanto 2 " to adopt your position, and4it's ay thesis, that they have done so, and I 3 think the evidence shows it, tou said in effect, "Don't let the public J; '5 know-- " .. MR. MDSGRAVB: _ Object, your honor. ;- 6 .7 _ ,8 -9- Q - That's what you sold* ' v--^ -r* * L f.V >;r ,,r / -i ' - r ' H^ " 1L *\ >*MR.'MUSGBAVEs Counsel1 cthiaaraa<cterisation of his belief and \ i > '* *' v X Av- rt? {?v-^ what the evidence'shows, that's argument, that's a speech4, it is improper, :.-1- . ' r , /;'<7 -v' * 1j fs'*V .iI,;<-*i "' I* - ^ -r -- 1 1 - 1 * . i ', i - ' , f * 7 " f ` -"f " , .- ,, '; *- I requast tbat ths^Court instruct the: jury to disregard it and strike it 10 ficoo the record* 1 . .. . / * -r 'j > 11 i ' v,V I 5 -V t t `'J;*t v 1' ` r . .f \ THE COURT; Overruled, Would you answer the question, please,, 12 and than we ar going to have to break for the day. 13 A 1 No, that isn't what I said; l4" 15%. -ii* 16 17 .18 19 THE COURT; Ladleo and gcntlcaen, vc are going to ond the teatlnorjy for .today* T7 will rasiate again tomorrow corning at 9 ;30 The regular i *.< *r ' ', 'W , 4 *- , " 4l "k 4 I -. * I n "* V i` at o mlBhuepta that Z give you on any ovarnight breaks will apply during ' . this ona also. Ths Court la in adjournment until 9:30, (Court adjourned for the day.) ? 21 \ 22 23 24 ' ^fc'` ' FO R * IL i * B B A YO N N E, N .J . '07002 ) ss.1 STATE OF ILLINOIS ) 2 COUNT? OF ST CLAIR ) 3 4 5 6 Z. RICHARD?. GOLDENBERSE Circuit Judge 1& and for the 7 Twentieth Judicial Circuit, hereby certify that the above ie a true and 8 correct transcript of the proceedings bod In the case captioned: FRANCES 9 E KENNER, at al., v MONSANTO COMPANY. Cause No 80-L-970, heard on 10 April 16. 1983 11 RATED thla 24th day of April. 1983. 12 13 ENTER: 14 15 16 RICHARD P. GOLDENEKRSH, Circuit Judge 17 18 19r 20 21 22 23 24