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J't.5 M.. * 1 1 lO 0'l<iN K SMiQ ,1 i UDO*. 7*' 64ti. tsO ?`r*r *"D rjoc*. * ' ' 1 .OKW4N st *4-2011 ^9 tOI*. 1 i 4)4*i mall. 7`*\rt r*KD. ?*'s *_ ' 1 * ! -WlS mA*wak st. *A-2CJ oA , ! , El&Q 2*'6LLL IS3S.V0 BACirV 9C* I 1 N`"4N st. * . 70-7 08 COi4- I `lExi*- C^BstC^Os * B 1 a. i_AsiD. 1 1 Sts rOA*. E*-0*t8 CO-OKtQfSL. ) t.c> v 3u. eso* **d baotv to* lO I -o^e*ss St *-90? QR1414S 1 , Ofc*" 'U- - J-m *T0 12 '> JJ ! dic? cos*tb. \ l.bO* BD ! D.81C' COSS'D l*A35tB* s n< . * * ' 0-7014 C8ts 08**800* 0* MATERIAL UVT - *YSTE 3 3 ) 3 We have discussed the formation of a science advisory board in Chicago as well as with Matt Swetonic of Hill and Knowlton/NYC who is well aware of Dr. Enterline and his research, the creation of science advisory boards, and is completely familiar with the asbestos as well as fiberglass issues. Swetonic worked for 15 years in this area and knows the players in the asbestos battle as well as the fiberglass issue. Swetonic said, and we agree, that a panel separate from TIMA would lend more credibility than an industry group trying to repudiate Enterline's findings or offer commentary on any future research findings. Prior to the formation of the board, its role and mission or objective would be determined. Its mission statement would include a concern for general health and safety and stress the group's interest in maintaining a totally independent body for review of all research methodology. we suggest a board of perhaps five'members from a variety of specialties. A three-year contract: would help to ensure the independence of the group. The advisory board budget could be created to allow for the hiring of additional experts if needed. A TIMA representative such as Dr. Anderson could serve in a non-voting, advisory capacity. We suggest that TIMA might consider establishing a special grant to fund this panel and its work with the administration of the program being handled through a respected third-party/independent agency (such as the Cancer Research Institute). This group could review, on a regular' basis or sporadically, any significant research dealing with the issue of mademade thermal fibers or related issues. This independent team could have a great deal of credibility by virtue of its third party administration. The agenda for this advisory board could establish a 30-day period in which TIMA could react to and express concerns to the board on its review of each project. After that 30-day period, the advisory board would-be free to release its results. Hill and Knowlton can call upon its research capabilities to reveal many well-known and highly respected individuals in the scientific community who would be potential board candidates. This list would draw upon those with specialities in safety and health, environment, occupational disease, cancer, toxicology, medical, epidemiology, etc. It is estimated that putting together a.carefully selected group could take a month or two. Not only would this involve preparing the list of potential candidates and making contact but there also would be the preparation and distribution of background material. An alternative approach to the advisory board could be a larger board of specialist/consultants with expertise in a variety of specialties who could be called upon for specific tasks, such as reading specific pieces of research and offering commentary. Individual honoraria would be involved for each task. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 16 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 TRANSCRIPT of the deposition of the witness, called for Oral Examination in the above-captioned matter, said deposition being taken pursuant to Superior Court Rules of Practice and Procedure by and before DIANA L. R. SENATORE, a Notary Public and Certified Shorthand Reporter, at the Offices of HILL and KNOWLTON, INC., 420 Lexington Avenue, New York, New York, on Tuesday, June 7, 1988, commencing at approximately 10:15 in the forenoon. BRODY & GEISER CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS 170 Broadway New York, New York 10038 (212) 732-0644 JOB # 8060710 Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 APPEARANCES: WILENTZ f GOLDMAN & SPITZ ER, ESQS. 136 Church Street New York* New York 10007 BY: CHRISTOPHER M. PLACITELLA, ESQ. Attorneys for Plaintiffs DAVIS & GILBERT, ESQS. 850 Third Avenue New York, New York 10022 BY: MARIBEL FIGOEREDO, ESQ. Attorneys for Hill & Knowlton, Inc. MC CARTER & ENGLISH, ESQS. Four Gateway Center 100 Mulberry Street Newark, New Jersey 07102-4096 BY: KEVIN J. CONNELL, ESQ. Attorneys for the Wellington Defendants GOLDEN, LINTNER, ROTHSCHILD, SPAGNOLA fc DIFAZIO, ESQS. 1011 Route 22 West, Box 897 Somerville, New Jersey 08876 BY: E. RICHARD BOYLAN, ESQ. Attorneys for Defendant Eagle Picher Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 WATERS, MC PHERSON, MC NEILL & FITZPATRICK, ESQS. 400 Plaza Drive SecaucuSr New Jersey 07094 BY: CALVIN A. LEE, ESQ. Attorneys for Defendant Anchor Packing, Inc. BUDD, LARNER, GROSS, PICILLO, ROSENBAUM, GREENBERG & SADE, ESQS. 150 JFK Parkway Short Hills, New Jersey 07078 BY: JOHN J. CATINO, ESQ. Attorneys for Defendant Combustion Engineering, Inc. ALSO PRESENT: NESS, MOTLEY, LOADHOLD, RICHARDSON & POOLE, ESQS. 333 Westminser Mall Providence, Rhode Island 02903 BY: JOHN J. MC CONNELL, JR., ESQ. Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 INDEX 2 3 WITNESS NAME 4 5 MATTHEW M. SWETONIC 6 7 Direct by Mr. Placitella 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 PAGE NO. 7 Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 6 1 exhibits 2 3 EXHIBIT NO DESCRIPTION PAGE NO. 4 5 P-1 Transcript of a presentation 6 given to the Asbestos Textile 7 Institute on 6/7/73 by M. Swetonic 40 8 9 P-2 Document entitled "What you 10 should know about asbestos and 11 health." 44 12 13 P-3 Document entitled "Recommended 14 work practices^ fabrication and use 15 of Asbestos Paper Products 44 16 17 P-4 Letter dated June 10, 1987 79 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 1$ 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MATTHEW M. SWETONIC, 88 Aldridge Road/ Chappaqua, New York/ 10514, called as a witness, having been first duly sworn according to law, testifies as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. PLACITELLA: Q Good morning Mr. Swetonic, my name is Chris Placitella. A Good morning. Q I'm with the law firm of Wilentz, Goldman & Spitzer, and I represent certain plaintiffs in an asbestos personal injury case, of which Hill and Knowlton is not a party. A Oh-huh. Q We are here today for the purpose of taking your deposition to determine what knowledge you have concerning some of the facts and circumstances involved in these cases. Have you ever had your deposition taken before? A No. Q I'm going to ask you some questions which I ask that you answer to the best of your ability. If for some reason you don't understand a question, please tell me that and I'll attempt to rephrase it. If you answer it I'll assume you understood it. Do you Brody S Geiser <201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct understand that? A Yes. Q Okay. I also ask that you keep your answers to my questions verbal, as the court reporter can't take down a nod of the head or a shrug of the shoulders, okay? A Fine. Q If during the course of the deposition your attorney should object to a question that I ask, please don't answer it until such time as we have the opportunity to discuss what we should have learned a long time ago in law school, probably what we should not have forgot, and she tells you whether you can answer the question or not. A I understand. Q Give me the benefit of your education. A Bachelor's Degree in Writing from the University of Pittsburgh. Master's Degree in Journalism from Columbia University. 0 When did you receive the Master's? A 1965. Q You currently work for Hill and Knowlton; is that correct? A That is correct. Q Did you hold any job prior to your getting Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONic-Direct 9 your Master's Degree? A For about six months I was a reporter for the Easton Express in Easton* Pennsylvania? daily newspaper. 0 How old are youtoday? A Today? Q Yes. A Forty-five. Q When you finished your Master's Degree in 1965, what was the first job you had after that? A Johns-Manville Corporation. Q What did you do for them? A Initially I started out as an assistant editor on their company magazine. Q How long did you have that job? A Roughly to 1967, when I then was named editor of that publication. Q What was the name of the publication? A I Knew you were going to asK that. I don't remember. Q And as editor what were your basic responsibilities? A Just basically to put out this magazine, which primarily talked about what employees were doing in the company, occasional features on the, some of the new Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct 1C products that they were developing, that sort of thing. Q Okay. A For example, their insulations were used in a lot of spacecraft so we would do stories on that practically every month, or however many times a year it came out. Q But you don't remember the magazine name, though? A No, I really don't. Q Did the magazine ever deal with issues such as asbestos and health? A I'm trying to remember if it did or not, because again as I say, I knew that would be something you would ask. I don't remember, to be totally honest with you. Q How long did you have the job as editor of that magazine? A For approximately one year, sometime into 1968 it changed. Q And what is your next job? A I was approached by the company because one of the specialties that I had taken at Columbia was science journalism. Q So you stayed editor of the magazine until sometime in 1968? Brody 6 Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct A Right. Q And then your next job was? A i then approached by the company, as X was saying before, because I had done science writing as a specialty in the second half of my year at Columbia, to help them with their evolving public relations problems with asbestos and health* And they gave me a title that was something like coordinator of special projects* One of those very fuzzy type names. Q Row long did you have that job? A Until 1972 when Manville moved to Denver and I did not want to leave New York. So I took over a job as the executive secretary of the Asbestos Information Association of North America. Q Let me go back to the public relations job you had with Manville from '68 to f72* A Uh-huh. Q What specifically was your job function? A I was -- I reported to two people who were sort of in charge of the total public relations effort on asbestos. A fellow named Bill Raines, another fellow named Jack Solon, who is really the head of advertising, and public relations. Bill Raines being the head of public relations. And X worked basically for those two. Brody 6 Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 SWETONIC-Direct 1 Q What did you do? 2A Well/ for example/ I would help write background 3 papers on various types of asbestos-related diseases 4 like asbestos and mesothelioma/ asbestos-related 5 disease/ and different types of products like asbestos 6 cement or the insulations or that sort of thing. 7 Pretty much a writing assignment. I would also write 8 testimony for executives who were going to testify at 9 say OSHA or EPA hearings/ that sort of thing/ or at 10 least would do drafts of them in any case. 11 Q Every time you generated a piece of 12 written work/ would that be filed somewhere? 13 A Yeah/ it would have been. 14 Q How was that filed? 15 A Well/ it was -- it was just in what we would 16 call our old asbestos and health files at 17 Johns-Manville. 18 Q And who was the custodian of those files? 19 A They were just in the department. 20 Q Which department was that? 21 A Public relations. 22 Q So the public relations department was 23 centered in New York City at the time? 24 A That's correct. 25 Q And they had their own files on asbestos -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 and health? SWETONIC-Direct * l; A To the best of my recollection, yeah- I mean, I would have a filing cabinet with the stuff that I was working on but --. Q When the transfer was done out to Denver, were those files shipped to Denver as well, to your knowledge? A I would assume they were because they were, you know, we were actively working on the issues- So there would be no reason for them to be tossed away. Q Was the custodian of those records -- who was the person in charge of them? A Well, Bill Raines did not go out there. He went to -- he went to another company. I would guess Jack Solon. Q Is Jack still with the company? A No, he's retired. Q Do you know who his successor was? A No, I really don't. Q Now, in preparing these papers or writings that you spoke about, did you ever to go back and do research on asbestos and health? . A Yes. 0 In order to --. A Yeah. Brody Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 SWETONIC-Direct 14 1 Q What kind of research did you do? 2A Well/ we had been collecting, you know, basic 3 stuff out of the, out of the medical literature. 4 Q When you say "we," who are you talking 5 about? 6A Well, Hill and Knowlton and Johns-Manvil1e. 1 Q So Hill and Knowlton had a relationship 8 with Johns-Manville at that time? 9A Yes. 10 Q Okay, go ahead. 11 A I can recall at one point a meeting at which 12 somebody commented on the fact that we had more than 13 4,000 papers on asbestos and health in the file at that 14 particular point in time. 15 Q Now, when you say at that point I found 16 about 4,000 articles on asbestos and health, at what 17 point in time are we discussing, just so I know, about 18 1968? 19 A Well, it was probably later than that. We're 20 probably talking *71 or something in that ballpark. 21 Q Did Hill and Knowlton maintain their own 22 file on asbestos and health at that time? 23 A 24 25 A Yes, they did have -- yeah, they did. Q And who was the custodian of that file? Probably a fellow named Carl Thompson. Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 15 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct Q Is Carl still with the company, do you know? A Nof he's retired. Q file? Now, after Carl left what happened to that A No, but it's different than that. What happened was that when Manville moved to Denver all of the Hill and Knowlton files were turned over to the trade association. Q What trade association? A The Asbestos Information Association. Q Okay. And when was that? A Late 1971 probably. Q Okay. So Hill and Knowlton didn't retain copies? A Not to the best of my knowledge. Q Now, you said you did some research for Mansville when you took over in this public relations job. Did you ever document the earliest articles that you can recall concerning asbestos and health? A I'm sorry, I don't quite understand. Q Let me rephrase the question. Did you breakdown the articles into the various diseases, or _ did you just lump medical articles together when you were doing --. Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct 16 A No, these were all medical articles we are referring to. Basically they were, they were looked at by a combination of either disease or, you know, product line for example, insulations for example. Q Okay. Did you maintain copies of the papers you wrote for Manville? A I probably -- they were probably at the trade association as well. Q So then you didn't maintain personal copies of the papers, did you? A No. Q Can you recall writing any papers concerning exposure to insulation products and their effect on human health? A yes. Q Did the papers have titles? A Oh, they probably did. It was something like Asbestos Insulation and Human Health or, you know, some such name. Q Was that paper published at all? A No. I mean not -- you mean like in a journal or something? Q Right. A No. No. No. These are not medical papers. These were background papers. Brody 6 Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Dicect Q Okay. A I'm not a doctor or a scientist. Q Where did you get the information for the paper? A Generally out of this* out of the medical literature as it existed. Q Who supplied the medical literature to you? A The company. And they did searches through the medical literature to get all there was out there. Q Did you consult any physicians in connection with this paper Asbestos Insulation and Health? A Basically we would* we would write a paper or I would write a paper. Then the company would* would have it reviewed by their consultants* medical consultants. Q And do you know who that was? A The primary one in those days was a fellow named Dr. George Wright. Q Did you ever meet Dr. Weight? A Oh* yes. Q What would his role be in conjunction with these particular papers? What would he do? A He was a consultant to Johns-Manville. He was Brody 6 Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 SWETONIC-Direct 1C 1 affiliated with, as I recall, St, Luke's Hospital in, I 2 can't remember where it was, I just remember it was 3 St. Luke's Hospital someplace. 4 Q When you had this job in public relations, 5 did you consult or collaborate with any other asbestos 6 companies? 1A Not until the trade association was formed. 8 Q And when was that? 9A In, I think, maybe late 1970. 10 Q Can you recall with respect to the paper 11 on Asbestos Insulation and Health what the earliest 12 articles you were able to find in the medical . 13 literature were implicating asbestos insulation as a 14 health hazard? 15 A No. 16 Q Do you remember from what decade they 17 came? 18 A No, not really. I remember better the, you 19 know, when the diseases were found, you know, in the 20 medical literature as opposed to their association with 21 any particular product. 22 Q kay. Well, can you recall with respect 23 to asbestosis the earliest articles you were able to 24 find in the medical literature? 25 A My recollection is that they were probably in Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct Q Do you remember the authors of any of those papers? A No. Q Do you remember what the papers said? A Just basically that heavy exposure to asbestos insulations or asbestos could cause, you know, asbestosis. Q Okay. Did you have any discussion with any physicians or any other representatives of Manville concerning those findings? MS. FIGUEREDO: By those findings you mean? Q The papers dating back to the 1930s on asbestosis. A I'm not quite sure about what you mean by discussions. Q Well, did you have discuss with Dr. Wright, for instance, about the articles you found dating, concerning asbestosis back in the 1930s? A Probably no specific discussions. Q Was it part of your job to communicate your findings to someone else within the company? A Well, it's not findings. You know, we had the processes -- basically we had this great body of Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 SWETONIC-Direct 1 medical literature. And it would be to go through that 2 particularly looking for epidemiological studies or 3 studies that were trying to indicate at what level 4 these various diseases, exposure level these diseases 5 were caused. And those were the most important things 6 that we used in the, in trying to prepare these 7 background papers. 8 Q This body of literature that you*re 9 discussing, was that something that was accumulated 10 over time by Manville and they had it in a file, or did 11 you go out and do a search or someone at your request 12 go out and do a search at that point you wanted to 13 write the paper? 14 A X don't know the answer to that, because some of 15 those papers were in place when I got involved in the 16 job* And t don't know, I just don't know the answer to 17 that. 18 Q Did Manville have a medical library at the 19 time? 20 A I don't recall. 21 Q Now, you said that part of your endeavor 22 was to determine exposure levels. What did you mean by _ 23 that? 24 A well -- 25 (Recess.) Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct A -- determine is not a good word. All we were looking for was what was in the literature with regard to the exposure levels at which asbestos caused disease of various types. Q And what did you find? A Basically the problem with the, at that time is that the dust samples -- again, I'm just referring to the literature -- that the dust samples that had been taken years before that were recorded in the literature were not the same sampling techniques that were being used at that particular point in time. And so it was kind of difficult to arrive at what would be considered, you know, a "safe level" of exposure. So of course, there was a lot of research going on trying to correlate, you know, one with the other. And we just tried to help explain that as best we could. Q Did Manville have a position or a belief at that time, to your knowledge, as to what was the safe level of exposure in terms of asbestosis now? A Asbestosis. I'm sure that they did. I can't say specifically what that might have been for asbestosis. Q Did you ever research the concept of threshold limit value for them? A Of course, that's what we were, you know. Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct 2: essentially looking at, is to try and determine what sort of, what would make sense in that regard. Q Did you reach any conclusions or did anyone working with you reach any conclusions concerning the reliability of an established threshold limit value? A In other words, would it work? Q Right. A Yeah, I think they believed that there was a level that could be set by the government that would protect people, if that's what you mean. Q Do you know what that was? A No, they thought, I think, you know, in the low numbers of fiber per cubic centimeter, whether it was going to be -- whether it would be two or four or five or somewhere in that general ballpark. Q Did you also do research and prepare a background paper concerning asbestos and lung cancer? A I'm sure I did. Q Okay. And who did you consult, or what did you consult in preparing that paper? A The same processes as the other ones. Q Can you recall the first articles that you were able to -- the earliest articles you were able to find demonstrating an association between asbestos and Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct lung cancer? A My recollect ion* probably in the late '40s, something like that. Q Can you recall who the author of those articles were? A No, I have the recollection it was a British paper, but I'm not sure. Q Can you recall any particular epidemiological studies that you found which established an association between asbestos and lung cancer? A Well, that's what I'm referring to, epidemiological studies. Q Okay. Did Manville ever give you any of their own data with respect to their own employees when you were writing up these background papers? A No. Q So this was basically a search of what was out there at the time? A Yes, that's correct. 0 Did you put your conclusions as to when this first association became known in this background paper? A Most likely.I mean, that would bethe standard way I would write things. So Iwouldassume X did Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 SWETONIC-Direct X 2 Q Did anyone, to your knowledge, come back 3 to you and disagreewith your conclusions? 4 A No. 5 Q Did you submit those papers to Dr. Wright 6 again for review? 7 A Oh, yes. 8 Q And did he disagree with the determination 9 or conclusions that you reached concerning asbestos and 10 lung cancer? 11 A No, not to the best of my recollection. 12 Q Did you also attempt to determine whether 13 there was a safe level of exposure in terms of 14 contracting lung cancer from asbestos? 15 A The process of looking at TLV's for asbestos was 16 just applied across the board for all the diseases. 17 Q Did you ever do a background paper 18 concerning exposure to asbestos and mesothelioma? 19 A Again, I'm -- don't remember precisely doing 20 that, but I assume I did, because we had a great body 21 of those papers, eight or nine of one type or another. 22 So that would be naturally one to be done. 23 Q Do you recall the earliest articles that 24 you found in Manville's files demonstrating an 25 association between asbestos and mesothelioma? Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct 21 A Yeah, that's definitely in the '50s. An epidemiological study of one type or another. Q Can you recall specifically the name of the paper or the study? A No. Q Or the author? A My recollection, it was a paper out of South Africa or Rhodesia, as it was then known, on the asbestos mines and crocidolite mines in South Africa is my recollection. Q Does the name Wagner ring a bell? A Yeah. 0 Can you recall when you looked at the Wagner paper whether is there was any mention of different exposure levels in that particular paper? A No, I can't remember: Q Did you ever do apaper forManville concerning the risk of contracting asbestos-related disease from low level exposure and do a medical search in connection with that? A I don't think as a specific paper not that I -- not that I recall. Q Did you ever do that type of research in looking at the medical literature in possession of Johns-Manville? Brody 6 Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct 26 A Yeah, that was obviously part of, you know, when going through the whole OSHA process to find out, you know, at what levels things are gonna not happen again. Q Can you recall the earliest papers that you found concerning low level exposure to asbestos and asbestos disease. A Well, what -- okay, let me ask you a question. I have to ask you a question; that is, what do you mean by "low level"? Q That's a fair question. Did you ever do any research papers, for instance, bystander exposure, people who actually didn't work with insulation products but were exposed as bystanders? A I don't recall their ever having, ever having seen such a paper. The only -- Okay. NS. FIGDEREDO: Don't guess. THE WITNESS: No. Q Did you ever see any papers concerning exposure and risk of disease or disease developing in family members? A Yes. Q Can you recall the earliest paper in that - regard? A Oh, gosh that, that came probably late. That was again, I think, a British paper, too. Woman Brody & Geiser <201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 S 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct 27 author. I met her a couple of times. Probably, probably that would have been in the late '50s, early '60s I would think would be my best guess. Q That's your best estimate? A Yeah. Q And do you recall what the substance of that paper was, what it said? A Yeah. Basically she had found cases of mesothelioma in the households of people who had worked in asbestos factories of one type or another, I don't recall what kind, in England somewhere. Q And did you bring these or have discussion about these papers with anybody at Manville? A Oh, sure. It was a very -- those were very important issues. Q Who did you run those papers by when you found them? A Well, I mean everybody knew that they existed. X mean, the doctors at Manville knew the authors of these papers. They spent a lot of time talking with them about them, what the implications were, what kind of levels one might have projected that the people had - been exposed to in the households. You know, this thing, none of this happened in isolation. I mean, I spent many a month in Europe talking around with Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct doctors over there, you know, going over there with the Manville people to get better information on what was going on. Q Which doctors did you go see in Europe? A Good question. I know we went out to a pneumoconiosis research unit, or some such thing in Penarth, Wales. And there was another center for asbestos health studies in Scotland. You know, those sorts of things. And to conferences and that sort of st uff. Q Did you ever meet with a Dr. Nocks? A Dr. Nocks. The name is familiar. Q Company known as Turner & Newall? A Yeah. Yeah, I probably did. Q Did you ever meet with a Sir Richard Doll? A I don't believe I personally did. I, of course, know who he is. 0 After you had read this paper over, did you discuss it with Dr. Wright, the paper on mesothelioma in the family of asbestos factory workers? A I wouldn't think we discussed it. Q Did anyone at Manville, to your knowledge, ever disagree with the conclusions reached in that paper when you brought it to their attention? A Well, no, no one ever disagreed with it. Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct Q Can you think of any other papers that you discovered or you discussed with anyone concerning asbestos disease and family members? A That's -- that's the only paper that I can recall, that one particular paper. Q Can you recall ever reading any papers in possession of Manville concerning asbestos disease found in residents around an asbestos factory or mine? A The only one that X can recall was there was some higher incidence of mesothelioma in the vicinity of a shipyard in Scotland or some such place. That's the only one I can recall. Q Can you recall approximately when that paper was published? A Well, no. It was probably again in the '60s. Q Can you describe the relationship between Rill and Knowlton and Johns-Manville when you first went to work for Johns-Manville? A Rill and Knowlton was not retained by Johns-Manville when I went to work there. They were retained sometime in 1968 specifically to work with them on the asbestos and health situation. But when - precisely they are, I don't know. They were in place when I was offered to change jobs within the company. Q Do you know who the account representative Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct from Rill and Knowlton was at the time? A Carl Thomson. Q You tell me he's retired/ correct? A Yes. Q Did he have any associates that worked with him on that account that still work at Hill and Knowlton? A No. Q Can you recall any of the associates he had with him on that account? A Jim Callaghan. Do wantmore? I'm trying to remember. Fellow named Bill Jenkins. Those are the only two additional I can remember. Q What specifically was Hill and Knowlton retained to assist with by Johns-Manville? A Well/ basically to counselthem on how to discuss the implications of the asbestos and health problem with the public, with their employees, with government, whatever. Q Now, at that time was Hill and Knowlton to your knowledge retained by any other insulation manufacturer or asbestos manufacturer? A Not to the best of my knowledge. Q Are you aware of an agreement between Johns-Manville, Owens-Corning, Pittsburgh Plate Glass Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct 31 and Certain-Teed in the late 1960s retaining Hill and Knowlton concerning the issues of asbestos and health? A When would this have been? Q '67, '68, '69. A Nof I thought it was just Manville. Q Did Hill and Knowlton have its own medical people at the time that assisted Manville? A You mean doctors,professionals. Q Doctors. A No. Q What type of assistance did it give Manville other than writing copy for them and helping them with press releases, that type of thing? A Just, you know, just counsel them on, as I said, on public relations aspects of the issue. Q Did Rill and Knowlton give Manville any technical support? A NO. Q Did they ever, during the time that you worked there, counsel Manville on how to deal with lawsuits arising out of asbestos? A No. Q Can you recall what specifically Rill and Knowlton advised Manville to do with respect to the problem of asbestos and health? Brody & Geiser (201) 730-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct 3; A Well, the basic position was that to solve the problem and to at the same time put it in perspective where it had gotten a little bit out of whack, Q When you say that, what do you mean by that? A That it was the belief of all of us working at Manville that asbestos could be used safely and that the exposures could be controlled to an extent where there would not be, you know, additional disease in the future* And so the effort was to, obviously to explain that to whoever needed to understand it* Q When you say could be used safely, what do you mean by that? A Meaning that you could manufacture asbestos products, you could use asbestos-containing products, you can mine asbestos without endangering the health of the people who were handling that. Q What precautions would have to be taken in the opinion of Manville at the time to accomplish that objective? A Well, obviously huge air cleaning equipment in plants and factories and mines, which they already had . i in place basically. But to, you know, to make sure that you had state-of-the-art air cleaning equipment in all operations. I can remember basically, you know. Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct sort of research projects to try and find ways, for example, to open bags of asbestos in a fashion that the dust would not be created- They had these things where you'd stick your hands in, almost like in an operating room, and then open the bags that way. And eventually I think they developed mechanical bag openers, and that sort of stuff. A lot of technical type of efforts to do that sort of thing. Q Was it Manville's believe at the time that opening a bag of asbestos would release asbestos containing particles? A Of course it would. A bag of asbestos, and you open it you get a puff up, you get an exposure. Q Did that include asbestos cement as well? A I don't recall stuff on asbestos cement, to be honest with you. Because they were really basically involved in the finish asbestos cement products. So I don't think they sold asbestos cement in bags, as I recall. Q Okay. A So it would not be something that technically they'd pay attention to. _ Q Were you ever involved in any discussions on labeling of Manville products? A Not that I recall. Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct Q Nowf when you say that the issue in Manville's mind got out of perspective/ I want to explore that. What do you mean by that specifically? A Well/ there was perfect MS. FIGUEREDO: You mean in greater detail than he has already explained to you? MR. PLACITELLAs I haven't heard about perspective. He just told me about ways to make use of the product safef I believe. A Uh-huh. Q And I want to know what you mean when you say it got out of perspective. A I think there was a feeling in the* you know/ in the popular press that any exposure to any level of asbestos was automatically going to give people disease. And that simply was not supported by what was in thef in any of the literature/ or by any of the research that had been done. So that was part of the reason for/ tot, you know/ doing some of those background papers. It could be used with the press or whatever to explain/ yes/ it's a problem but it's/ it can be, you know# dealt with. Q Okay. At that time were you familiar with Dr. Irving Selikoff? A Oh/ yes. Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct Q How were you familiar with him? A Dr. Selikoff and the Environmental Sciences Laboratory at Mount Sinai and Johns-Manville entered into a research project sometime in the late '60s to address the issue of the safe handling of asbestos insulation in the field, not in the production of it in a factory, but in the field. Q Why why was that? A Because Or. Selikoff had done a lot of research on insulation workers, really asbestos insulation workers. And they had an exceedingly high incidence of asbestos-related diseases. Q Is that something that was known to Manville at the time? A Oh, of course. Q Okay. Go ahead. A So the question was how can you develop or change work practices. Can you get portable air hoods to work with what needs to be done to protect these people in the way that they either apply or tear out asbestos insulations. Q Do you know whether John Manville and Hill ' and Knowlton ever established any type of public relations campaign to counteract the adverse publicity that Selikoff's studies were generating in the press? Brody 6 Geiser <201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct 36 A No, not really. I mean, they were basically wor king together with the man at that t ime. Q Were you familiar with an article that appeaired in the 1 iter ature at the time called The Magi Miner al? A I remember the name, but not the article * Q Did :you <ever have any disc ussions with Hill and Knowlton or in Manville itself concern ing how best to ]present the asbestos and health picture to the labor un:Lons? A No. The only -- my only recollection of labor unions is they were also involved in that project that I had mentioned before with Manville and Mount Sinai and Selikoff. A fellow from there was a member -- the president of the union was a member of the board of this thing, which I can't even recall the name of anymore. Q Let me just move on for a second and I'11 come back. You had this particular job until you said about what time? A The end of 1971. Q Prior - - let 's discuss the AIA Of North America. A Okay. Q When was that established? Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SW ETONIC-Dir ect 37 A I believe in late 1970. Q And was that patterned after any other organization, to your knowledge? A Yes, an Asbestos Information Association type of a group in England. Q Do you know whether Hill and Knowlton had advised the AIA in England prior to that time? A Yes, they had. Q Do you recall in the 1970s what companies founded the AIA of North America? A I could name a couple. It's in some of the material I passed on for the deposition before. Certain-Teed, of course Manville, Raybestos-Manhattan, National Gypsum. It seems to me there were seven or eight. GAF, that's all I can remember of the initial. Q Was Ovens-Corning a member? A I don't believe so. Q What about Baldwin, Ehret, Hill, do you recall that, or Keene Company? A No. Q Celotex or Philip Carey? A Philip Carey I think may have come in in the second group much later. They expanded it from the original seven or eight up until about 22 or 23. And I can't, again, I also can't remember too many of them. Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 SWETONIC-Direct 1 you know. 2 Q When it was established in 1970, did you 3 have any role within the organization? 4A Yeah, I -- Manville basically for the first year 5 provided, for all intents and purposes, the staff to 6 this group. And from the public relations standpoint 7 that was myself and this fellow Bill Raines. 8 Q Did you have a title? 9A I don't believe so. At least not initially I 10 don't recall that I did, in any case. 11 Q What was the purpose of the AIA of North 12 America. 13 A Well, it was essentially to get the entire 14 industry into the effort that Manville had basically 15 been carrying on its own, which was to basically 16 address the health issues from an informational 17 standpoint with regard to asbestos and its various 18 health problems. They had technical committees, for 19 example, to put together, you know, safe use, safe 20 practice books on various types of asbestos useage, you 21 know, that sort of thing. 22 Q Okay. You started officially full-time 23 with the AIA when? 24 A Beginning in 1972. 25 Q What was your position? Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct 39 A Executive secretary. Q What were your job responsibilities there? A Basically it was really a continuation of my Manville job, just with a different title. Q And were there any other officers within the organization at that time? A No t I was -- myself and a secretary were the sole paid employees. Q What were your job responsibilities, the same as you had with Manville? A Same really as we had with Manville. Q Only at that point in time you were doing it on behalf of not just Manville but other member companies? A Other member companies, that's correct. Q Did you ever, in that capacity, go around to any trade organizations to give speeches or anything like that? A Not really. Basically the asbestos people, to my recollection, didn't have too many trade associations. And this one, as I said, was dedicated pretty much to the asbestos and health issue. And they had most of the major companies involved in it. So --. MS. FIGOEREDO: Excuse me. (Witness and Counsel confer). Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SW ETONIC-Direct 4 Q Do you recall ever giving a presentation to The Asbestos Textile Institute? A No. Q Do you recall speaking before them on June 7, 1973? A I really don * t. Q Okay. MR. PLACITELLA: Can I have this marked as P-1? (The above-mentioned document is marked as P-1 for Identification.) Q I am going to show you what's been marked P-1 for Identification, which I represent to you is a transcript of a presentation that you gave on 6/7/73 to The Asbestos Textile Institute according to one of the asbestos companies that was present at that. MS. FIGUEREDO: That is an imperuim (phonetic) document? MR. PLACITELLA: What? MS. FIGOEREDO: I'm asking you is his name in the document? MR. PLACITELLA: Yes, right on top. Q I ask you to review at least the first couple pages of that and see if that helps refresh your memory. Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 1 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct 41 A Sure. (Witness reviews). A Yeah, itfs possible. MS. FIGUEREDO: Are you going to ask him specific questions on this document? Q Yes, I am. MS. FIGUEREDO: I would like him to read the whole thing. MR. PLACITELLA: We will go through it. Q Does that help refresh your memory? A Yeah. I don't recall the occasion. Q Do you recall at one time speaking before The Asbestos Textile Institute? A I do not. Q Does this refresh your memory as to whether you had ever given presentations to asbestos industry trade organizations? A If that is an accurate document, then I obviously did to that group. But I, the fact of the matter is, I don't even remember giving that. MS. FIGUEREDO: His question is, does it refresh your recollection? If it doesn't, you can say no. A No, it does not. Q Will you tell me if this statement in this Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWTONIC-Direct 4 document is true to the best of your knowledge? It says, "In our original concept the Association would limit its activities to providing accurate, unbiased information on asbestos and health to the press, to the public and to interested politicians and other government officials." A Yes, that's true. Q That's true. You recall making such a statement? A No. MS. FIGOEREDO: Do you have another copy of that he can look at at the same time you're reading things from it? MR. PLACITELLA: I am sorry, I don't. Q Wa~ the following statement true at the time; "It must be remembered that at this particular time the enormous problems that would later develop with regard to OSHA and other federal regulatory agencies were as yet on the distant horizon and basically unrecognized by the industry"? A Yes, that's true. Q Okay. MS. FIGOEREDO: Can I interrupt? If you're going to ask a lot of things like, can we make a copy of the document so he can have it in Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct 4 front of him to look at in conjunction --. MR. PLACITELLA: Sure. MS. FIGUEREDO: Is there a machine? THE WITNESS: Sure. Q Can you recall making the following --. MS. FIGUEREDO; copy. I asked if we can have a MR. PLACITELLA: Fine. As soon as I am done you can have a copy. MS. FIGUEREDO: I want him to have a copy in front of him. I don't think it's that unfair to ask for him to have a copy of a document if you are going to be reading statements from it. MR. PLACITELLA: As soon as I finish this paragraph you can make a copy. 0 Do you recall making the following statement: "Fortunately and properly the Association has had the wisdom to alter its original limited concept of its proper functions* and now endeavors to assume whatever activities and responsibilities it deems necessary to protect the interests of the - asbestos manufacturing industry in the United States vis-a-vis asbestos and health"? A I don't remember making that statement. But --. Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct 4i Q Do you dispute that it was made by you? A I just don't recall. Q What I'd like to have you do right now is to read it. We will take two minutes out and you can read this statement and see if it refreshes your memory and see whether it refreshes your recollection. MS. FIGUEREDO: Are you going to be reading him other direct passages? MR. PLACITELLA: I will let him read that. Do you want to make a copy? MS. FIGOEREDO: Yes. (Recess.) MR. PLACITELLAi X can go on while we are waiting for copies. Can we mark these? (Documents are marked as P-2 and P-3 for Identification.) Q In 1973 was there anyone authorized to speak on behalf of the AIA of North America other than yourself? A Oh, sure, the president. Q Who was that? A 1973, probably John Marsh. Q Now, you told me that around 1970 when the organization was established both you and Mr. Raines Brodv & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct 45 were the only executives or principals within the organization; is that correct? A No, no. I said that we were on the staff. Q Oh, okay. Did you have other staff within the organization at that time? A Yes, from the member companies. Q Okay. Can you recall who else was on the staff in 1970? A I can only remember one man, and that was a fellow named Ed Fenner from Johns-Manville who was in charge of environmental affairs* Q Did it have a president at that time? A Yes. Q Who was that? A I can't remember. Q At some point in time you recall John Marsh taking over -- A Yes. Q -- as president? A Yes. Q When was that? A Probably in late '72._ Q All right. Was he with an asbestos company? A Yes. Brody 6 Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct 46 Q Which company? A Raybestos-Manhattan. Q Do you recall how long John Marsh was president? A No. Q How long did you remain executive secreta ry? A I left in August of '73. Q And where did you go after that? A To Hill and Knowlton. i 0 I am going to ask you to look at P-2 and P-3, and ask if you have ever seen these before, or copies of them? (Witness reviews). A I've seen that one* MS. FIGOEREDO: He is referring to P-2. MR. PLACITELLA: Correct. A No, I've never seen this one. Q Can you tell me what P-2 is? A I had nothing to do with the preparation of this. I'd be assuming what its purpose was, because I don't know. I've just seen copies of it. Q Where did you see copies of it. A Probably Bob Marinas sent me a copy when it was put together. Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 1 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct 4 Q Who is Bob Marinas? A He succeeded me as running the trade association when I left in f 73. Q How long did he keep that job? A I don't know. I know he's gone. Q To your knowledge, was that booklet P-2 put together after you left? A Yes. Q Now, your attorney has asked me to make you a copy of P-1 so we can go through it together. And in June of 1973, who else was authorized to speak on behalf of the Asbestos Information Association of North America to industry trade organizations other than yourself? A Well, the president obviously. And, of course, the people who would be in charge of the environmental sections of it. Q And who was the one who had the responsibility of making presentations to various industry organizations? A No one Q Can we turn to page 3? - I'd like to refer you to the first full paragraph. A Uh-huh. Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct 48 Q On page 3 the sentence says; "First, there is no doubt that the inhalation of substantial amounts of asbestos being lead to increased rates of various types of lung disease, including two forms of cancer. These are facts which cannot be denied, even if they do not apply in all circumstances and under all conditions." Is that a statement that you believe was true in 1973? A Yes. Q Do you believe that the members of the organization ascribed to that statement? A Yes. Q All right. I'd like to read you the next sentence: "The medical literature is full of solid evidence linking asbestos to disease. In my office I have on file more than 2,000 medical papers dealing with the health risk of asbestos, and hundreds more are published every year." At that time in 1973 did you ! have at least 2,000 papers in your office -- A Sure. Q -- on asbestos disease? A Probably was more.- Q Can you recall ever making that statement? A Yes. I mean --. Q Okay. Let me just go on to the next -~ .- Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 -1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct 49 sentence: "Secondly# the spreading of alarm over the health risks of asbestos has as its prime spokesman one of the most talented medical publicists of the age# Dr. Irving Selikoff of New York City Mount Sinai Hospital." Did you believe that at the time? A Uh-huh. Q Do you recall stating that? A I don't recall stating it. Q I ask you to turn to page four. The first full paragraph says: "While Dr. Selikoff has# in his zeal# unquestionably painted a far darker pictures than the facts warrant# we should always remember in his defense that the insulation workers he has been studying for far more than a decade were and still are dying from asbestos-related disease at an appalling rate." Do you believe that statement to be true in 1973? A Yes. Q Did the members of the organization in 1973# to your knowledge# ascribe to that statement as well? A I would think so. - MS. FIGUEREDO: One second. (Witness and Counsel confer). Q I'd ask you to look at page 7. Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct The first full paragraph says: "In those years industry efforts to combat the spate of negative press articles on asbestos were carried on primarily by the Johns-Manville Corporation, which set up a task force of specialists in various fields to do what it could to portray the problem in its proper perspective." Were you part of that task force. A Basically I was -- not really. I didn't go to those task force meetings. Q Who went to those task force meetings? A People much higher up the ladder in the company than myself. Q All right. Do you know the names of any of them? A Well, Jack Solon would have been, the president of Manville. Q Who was that? A Clint Burnett was his name. Dr. Wright was part of that task force. People representing the environmental control side of the company. I can't remember specifically who. That's about -- I mean, there were many more, but I can't remember. Q Okay. And the next sentence says: "while some minor successes were achieved, it was found that no one could acting independently could adequately or Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct effectively represent an entire industry in dealing with the press and with government officials." Do you believe that to be true at the time? A Yes. Q X read this paragraph to you before# and I'd like to give you the opportunity to address it. The second paragraph on Page 8. It says: "Fortunately# and properly the Association has had the wisdom to alter its original limited concept of its proper functions# and now endeavors to assume whatever activities and responsibilities it deems necessary to protect the interests of the asbestos manufacturing industry in the United States vis-a-vis asbestos and health. Did you believe that to be true at the time? A Yes. 0 And was that the position of the various members of the Asbestos Information Association at the time? A I would have to assume so. Q The next page discusses the nine fields of endeavor for the Asbestos Information Association. And it lists medical affairs# legal affairs# government ~ affairs# environmental control# publicity and public relations# customer relations# employee relations and inter-industry relations. Was that true at the time? Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct 52 A I assume it was, Q To the best of your recollection? A Yes, bestof my recollection. Q Am I correct that part of the function of the Asbestos Information Association was to send medical people around the World to attend various medical seminars and meetings? A Yes. Q And what was the purpose of sending those people there? A Well/ two purposes. One/ obviously/ to gain the most up-to-date information on what research was being done on asbestos and health. And secondly/ in some cases people in the industry were actually doing research of their own of various types, and they would go and present their information. Q Do you recall attending a meeting in 1972 in Lyon, France sponsored by the World Health Organization along with John Marsh? A Yes. Q I'd ask you to look at page 10 and read the first three paragraphs where it starts "To take our - activities. A Uh-huh. Yes. Q Now/ I ask you to look at the third full Brody S Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct paragraph where it says "Both John Marsh the president of the AIA and I attended the conference on behalf of the Association." Is the "I" referring to you, Matthew Swetonic? A Yes. Q Are you aware of a study sponsored by the Asbestos Information Association conducted at the Somerset Hospital in New Jersey? A Yes. Q Okay. What is your knowledge of that study and the AIA's role in that study? A A doctor out there believed that he had developed some sort of a treatment for mesothelioma using electricity or some such thing, and so he had come to the Association looking for money to try the treatment, continue the treatment. That's my recollection of it. Q Do you recall the Association retaining the services of Clifford Scheckler? A I don't recall it on a pay basis. Q I'll ask you to look at page 13, the last paragraph. It says: *In the customer relations area the total effect of negative press publicity and - government relations on industry customers is still today rather poorly defined. Some members of the Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct 54 Association have reported serious problems in this area, while others have experienced few or no difficulties thus far." Can you recall what problems you were referring to? A I believe to the point that people, customers didn't want products of any type with asbestos in it, no matter, you know, what* Q Can you recall the Asbestos Information Association preparing slide presentations concerning the facts about asbestos and health? A Gee, not really* Q I ask you to look at page 18. It says, the first paragraph: "I personally believe that the employee relations aspect of the asbestos health problem is one that has been sorely neglected by most companies within the industry." Did you believe that at the time? A I assume* Q It says: "I feel that this could develop into a major problem area in the near future, and that steps should be taken now to deal with it* We know that Dr* Selikoff and various organized labor groups are planning a full-scale campaign to bring their interpretation of the asbestos health problem to the attention of asbestos industry employees throughout the Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct Nation." Row did you find that outf do you remember? A No. Q The next sentence says: "If the industry permits this interpretation to be disseminated unchallenged, the consequences could be grave indeed." Could you explain that to me what you meant by that? MS. FIGUEREDO: If you recall now what you meant by that. A No, I really can't. Q You don't remember what you mean by that? A No, I really don't, to be honest with you. Q I ask you to look at page 23. The first full paragraph talks about the public relations campaign concerning asbestos and health. See that? A Oh-huh. Q Okay. The second full paragraph contains the following statement: "In any case, we also from time to time put out press releases on various subjects relating to asbestos-health. A few weeks ago we issued a release on the report of the advisory committee on asbestos cancers of the World Health Organization. In brief, the report concluded that the general public is not in danger from asbestos in the environment." Do you recall that? A No, I do not. Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct 56 Q Did you in 1973 have a file, about a half dozen files in your possession concerning important medical papers and photographs illustrating the benefits of asbestos? A Yes, of course. Q And when you left Hill and Knowlton -- I mean the AIA, do you believe those files were left with the AIA? A All the files that I had went down to the Washington office of the AIA. 0 Okay. And do you know who was in possession of those files? A Bob Marinas. He would have been the fellow who replaced me. Q Do you know today who is in charge of keeping such files? A The head of the -- I would assume the head of the AIA. Q What is his name? A Pigg, P-i-g-g, is his last name. I can't remember his first name. Q Did you deal with him on behalf of Hill and Knowlton ever? A No. Q Do you still deal with the Asbestos Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 a 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct 57 Information Association? A No. Q When is the last time MS. FIGUEREDO: Wait, I'm sorry. (Witness and Counsel confer). Q When is the last time that Hill and Knowlton dealt with the Asbestos Information Association, to your knowledge? A Late -- probably late '74. Q Okay. I'd like you to look at the bottom of page 25. It says: "And now having heard the bad side of the public relations problem, it's time for the good news. And the good news is, despite all the negative articles on asbestos-health that have appeared in the press over the past half-dozen years, very few people have been paying attention." Can you recall making that statement? A No. Q Did you believe that statement to be true in 1973? A I think I'd have to read further to find out in what context it was said. Q Please do so. And let me just -- * , A Now I understand what it's in context. G Did you recall in February of 1973 the Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SW ETONIC-Direct Association undertaking an interview - A Yes. 0 -- survey of the American public to determine its attitude toward asbestos, its awareness of the health issue? A Yes. Q And that survey was conducted by who? A Opinion Research Corporation, as it states. Q And did Hill and Knowlton have anything to do with that survey? A No. Q What was the results of that survey? MS. FIGUEREDO: Are you asking him of his independent recollection, or what* s -- Q Right, what you member. MS. FIGCJEREDO: Do you recall anything? A No, not specifics. Q Tell me what the results of the survey were from looking at this document. MS. FIGUEREDO: You can say what it states. A Well it says, "comment from summary." Since I - don't have the summary I can't comment from it. So I don't, there's no way I possibly could. Q Okay. Does the text surrounding the first Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct 59 paragraph on 26 give any meaning to that paragraph to you, that very few people have been paying attention? A I think the context is, yes, the context is that basically the vast majority of people according to this survey were neither aware of nor particularly concerned about asbestos health in their personal lives. Q Did that survey also include industrial workers? A I have no recollection. 0 Okay. Can you recall if that survey was done at the request of the Asbestos Information Association? A Yes. 0 All right. And it was the position of the members of the Asbestos Information Association at that time that very few people were still aware of the asbestos problem; is that correct? A No. I would assume, to my recollection, the reason the survey was conducted is because the industry thought everybody was aware of it. Q And the conclusion was what? A Thatvery few people wereaware. - Q Thank you. That was the good news, right? A That's right. Q Did you believe at the time that Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct 6: Dr. Selikoff and his supporters dramatized and exaggerated the seriousness of the asbestos health problem? A Yes* Q Did you ever communicate that to Dr, Selikoff? A Not me personally, Q Did anybody at the Asbestos Information Association ever communicate that to Dr- Selikoff? A I don't know. Q Did the Asbestos Information Association or any entity on its behalf or its members ever do anything to try to counteract the positions taken by Dr. Selikoff in terms of dramatizing and exaggerating the seriousness of the problem? A Only to the point of trying to state what the facta were as they were known to the industry at the time- Q Which was that? A Basically that --. MS- FIGOEREDO: You want him to summarize all the facts that they were aware of? MR* PLACITELLA: I want to know what his basic understanding was- I'm not asking to cite me chapter and verse. I want to know what his Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct 61 basic understanding was. A Basically the statement, things that I've said before, and that is in essence that asbestos products company basically be used safely if the appropriate controls were, you know, were done. Q Let me ask you before you go on. Did Dr. Selikoff take a position contrary to that, that if you use the proper safety precautions the products could be used safely? A Basically that was the, that was the purpose of the whole program that Manville and Dr. Selikoff undertook to find ways to do that specifically for the insulation workers. Q What I'm trying to understand is why -- A What's --. 0 -- the Asbestos Information Association believed that Dr. Selikoff was exaggerating the seriousness of the problem? A Because Dr. Selikoff took the single example from a health standpoint of the workers in the insulation trades, which was an extremely dusty trade, and tried to apply those numbers to everybody who worked with asbestos worldwide. And there was plenty of epidemiological data that said that just wasn't the truth, that's not the facts, people who work in other Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct 6 ways with asbestos where they're not exposed to huge amounts of asbestos dust the way the insulation trade were will not develop diseases at this sort of levels that Selikoff had in his study. Q Well, did you have a conclusion at the time that they would develop diseases at lower levels? A In some areas yes, and in some areas no. Q What do you mean by that? A In other words, if you looked at the textile mills, for example, they had problems not as serious as Selikoff's, but problems particularly with asbestosis. If you looked at asbestos cement pipe, before they got the crocidolite out you had some mesothelioma problems there. Most other asbestos cement situations there didn't seem to be any problems at all. The mining situation, for whatever reason, did not seem to be bad except in South Africa. So it was a mixed bag of things. Q Well, how long was it known that high levels of fibers were generated by asbestos insulation workers? A I don't know. I can't say. Q Okay. You did believe prior to 1973, however, did you not, that individuals who were family members were at risk of developing asbestos disease? Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct 6; MS, FIGUEREDO: Family members of whom? Q Asbestos insulation workers, okay, factory workers. A Only from the, from a study in England. Q And did you ever see anything that refuted that study? A I don't believe so. Q So was it that Dr. Selikoff was doing specifically in terms of what trade or exposed population that you say over dramatized or exaggerated the asbestos health problem, that's what I'm trying to determine? A Well, let me see, to try and put this into perspective. I can't remember how many people he had in that insulation workers study. But he would apply the percentages of deaths from asbestos to asbestosis, lung cancer, mesothelioma. As I said before, to everybody who worked in the asbestos industry, whether they had exposure to any significant quantities of asbestos at all, and despite the fact that there were lots of epidemiological studies around that said that basically those numbers do not apply to this, to the - people who work in this industry taken as a whole. Q understand Okay. That's what I'm trying to Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct 6 A Yes. Q You said that there was demonstration that people who worked with asbestos cement pipe could get sick, correct? A Dating back beforecontrols were put into place. Q All right. And when was that, '40s? A Yeah, probably. Q '50s? A I don't know, before my time. Q You say that there was evidence that people who worked in the asbestos textile factories could get sick, correct? A Yes, many studies. Q All right. There was evidence that people who worked in the asbestos insulation industry could get sick, correct? A Not in the manufacturing side. Q That I don't understand. What do you mean? A In other words, the people -- I mean, to the best of my recollection, I don't think that there were any studies that indicated the people who made the pipe - insulation had a problem. It was only the people who installed it and ripped it out that had the problem. But I may be wrong. But that's my recollection. Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct 6! Q Is that because there were adequate controls put into the various factories - A Right. Q -- where the products were made? A That's correct. Q Okay. All right. What other populations other than the factory workers who made the products did you think that Dr. Selikoff was exaggerating his findings concerning a specific population? that's what I'm trying to understand? MS. FIGCJEREDO: I think you are misconstruing what he said. Before he said he was applying the rate for insulation workers to everyone else. You want him to name everyone that's not an insulatin worker? Q Are there any other trades that were exposed that you think the numbers were unfairly applied to? A The insulation workers from the outside. In other words, people outside of the industry, the insulation workers were the only ones to my recollection that had any real serious problems. Q Okay. During the time that you were with the AIA of North America, did you ever participate in any lobbying activities specifically with respect to Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SW ETONIC"Direct the passing of OSHA standards? A I testified at the OSHA hearing on asbestos and discussions with their technical people during the course of it with regard to certain aspects of the proposed standard. Q You testified on behalf of who? A Asbestos Information Association* Q And its members? A Yes. Q What was the substance of your testimony? A Basically that the industry felt that the standard should be set for -- they didn't basically object to the proposed standard* which I believe was two fibers per cubic centimeter. But they needed a couple of years to come into compliance. They said* can we do five or two years and then go down to the two. And there were* you know, nix and things in the workplace section, a compliance section that they wanted to change. I don't remember what they were anymore. Q Did the industry take, or the AIA take a position with respect to labeling of asbestos products? A I don't remember. I don't. Q Did you ever do any lobbying activities in front of NIOSH? Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct 6 ** A No, I don't believe so. Q How about the EPA? A Again, when the EPA was going through the process of their standard, there was testimony given by the Asbestos Association and by a lot of member companies as well, for that matter. Q And what was the substance of the testimony before the EPA by the Asbestos Information Association? A I really don't recall. Q Did you personally testify? A No. Q Do you know who didtestify? A I believe a man named Frank Zimmerman. Q Where is he, from National Gypsum? A National Gypsum. Q Do you remember what his testimony was about? A Well, he was an environmental engineer, so the substance of his testimony, as I recall it, was to -- again they had proposed, as I recall, proposed a standard and, you know, to certain little modifications about what is practical and what was not practical, as I recall. Q Can you tell me what the structure of the Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct AIA was in terms of when you first went there in the early 1970s? Did they have various technical committees, how it was broken down? A Do you want it right at the beginning 1970 or -- Q Right. A -- or beginning 1971? It primarily really didn't change. It was - there would be a president and a vice-president, and then they would have primarily committees to deal with the environmental control part. That was the important part to them at that time. Q What do you mean by that? A To develop this sort of thing. This was --. Q You're referring to P-3? A Yeah, referring to P-3. I know they put out a whole bunch of these things, and that was an endless process that Cliff Scheckler was involved in, that you mentioned him before. Q Did they have a special committee on asbestos and health where the views member doctors met to discuss the issues? A I don't recall. Q Did they have -- A I don't really recall. Q Were there official meetings that took Brody & Geiser <201) 738-8555 or <212> 732-0644 SWETONIC-Direct 6r 1 place on a somewhat regular businesses at the AIA? 2 A Oh, yes. 3 Q How often did those meetings take place? 4 A I have no recollection. 5 Q Where would they take place? 6A They would normally take place in the, when X 7 was there, in the offices in New York. 8 Q And were minutes kept of those meetings? 9 A They had legal counsel. 10 Q Who was that? 11 A Fellow named Bradley Walls. 12 Q Do you know whether actual minutes were ) 13 14 kept? A I really don't recall. 15 Q Do you know whether any written summary of 16 the meetings were ever put together and sent to the 17 various members? 18 A X really do not recall. 19 Q Were notes taken at the meeting? 20 A I would assume so. X mean, I would take notes 21 at the meeting. 22 Q To your knowledge, has the Asbestos - 23 Information Association ever had a policy of destroying 24 its old files concerning asbestos and health? 25 A I have no knowledge of that. Not in my time. Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct Q Do you want to take a break? A Yeah, sure. (Recess -) Q You told me around 1973 you left the AIA, correct? A That's right. Q And you went to Hill and Knowlton? A That's correct. Q What was your job in 1973 at Hill and Knowlton? A I was an account executive in Hill and Knowlton. Q executive? And what were your jobs as account A To assist clients who hadproblems with health, health related issues. Q And can you remember any of the clients that you had at that time? A Just the Asbestos InformationAssociation. Q Can you remember specifically the member companies that you dealt with? A Well, of course, Manville and Raybestos, National Gypsum. Those were the ones we were closest with. Q What specifically did you do when you took on this job at Hill and Knowlton? Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 SWETONIC-Direct 1A My job basically was to serve in a transitional 2 stage while this person who replaced me was learning 3 the issues about asbestos, 4 Q And who was that again? 5A Bob Marinas, 6 Q And did you have a title when you -- you 7 were account executive? 8A Yes, 9 Q How long did you have that title? 10 A For about# about a year* 11 Q Until sometime in 1974? 12 A Yes* 13 Q What was the next job you had? 14 A Well the title -- I was made a vice-president in 15 1974 sometime* 16 Q And what were your duties as 17 vice-president? 18 A It's -- it was just areward. 19 Q You had the same clients? 20 A Same clients. 21 Q Did you have any clients outside of the 22 asbestos industry? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Who was that? 25 A Society of the Plastics Industry. Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Dicect Q And how long did you have the job as vice-president? A Until 1980. Q And then what job did you have? A I was named a senior vice-president in 1980. Q Did your job responsibilities change? A At approximately that same time I was -- no, it was earlier than that -- I was named deputy director of the division that X currently run. Q Which is what? A It's titled today. Scientific Technical and Environmental Affairs. Q That's the job you have now? A That's correct. Q What does that division do? A It counsels clients involved in health related issues. Q Does that include also members of the asbestos industry, or former members? A Not today. Q When is the last time that Hill and Knowlton counseled a member of the asbestos industry? A I can't speak for Hill and Knowlton. speak for my division. I can only Q What about your division? Brody 6 Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct A. I don't know what other companies do. In about five or six years ago I would guess. Q And why was it, did that relationship cease at that time? A No, this was -- this was just a project that somebody wanted our advice on something. Q What project was that? A It was O.S. Gypsum. And they asked whether it would be possible to put together a background paper on the use of asbestos in schools. Q And what happened with respect to that? A Their lawyers decided that that would probably not be a wise thing to do, so the project was never completed. 0 Why not? A I don't know. Q When you say background paper, what do you mean by that? A Similar to the papers, types of papers I described before. Q The history of, knowledge of diseases, that type of thing? A In this particular case to assess whether there was any real significant risk to children from asbestos in schools. Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 1 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 15 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct Q And that particular project was abandoned? A That's correct. Q And you said that was around when? A It's got to be five or six years ago. Q On the advice of USG's lawyers? A As I understand it. Q Did you actually have discussions with any of their attorneys? A No. Q The division that you man* do you have doctors and technical people working in that division with you? A No. Q How is that structured* thatdivision? A I am the director of the division. There is a deputy director and then eight other professional staff* meaning and secretaries. Q That's what X am -- what do they do? A As I said before* they counsel clients who have* you know* issues that involve environment* product safety and health* PDA related matters. Q Do they actually do research for the - clients like opinion surveys* medical research? That's what I'm trying to understand. A No, we wouldn't do medical research. We're a Brody & Geiser (2Q1) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 1 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETCNIC-Direct public relations firm. Q Would you do research of medical articles? A Yes. Q Do you know whether Hill and Knowlton has ever represented the Asbestosis Research Council? A I don1t know. Q Do you know whether they've ever represented or had an association with Turner & Newall? A I don't know. Q What about a member of the tobacco industry? A Yes. Q What is the association between Hill and Knowlton and the tobacco industry? A We have clients who are in the tobacco industry. Q Does your division have anything to do with the tobacco industry? A Yes. Q In what sense? A It's proprietary. I really can't discuss it. Q When you say "proprietary#" what do you mean by that? - MS. FIGUEREDO: The agency has certain agreements with certain clients that aren't public knowledge that Hill and Knowlton is doing Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct work for them is confidential and they can't disclose that information. There are signed agreements to that effect. Q Do you know if Hill and Knowlton has ever been associated with or represented Owens-Corning Fiberglas? A I -- I don't know. I never have been involved with Owens-Corning. Q Never in terms of A On behalf of Hill and Knowlton. Q Any involvement with respect to Owens-Corning Fiberglas and the hazards of fiberglass? A Not to the best of my knowledge. Q What about Pittsburgh Plate Glass, has Hill and Knowlton ever represented them or been associated with them? A Yes. Q What about the Safe Buildings Alliance, have you ever heard of them? A No. Q What about the Asbestos Textile Institute? A Not to the best- of my knowledge. - Q United States Rubber? A I don't know of it. Q Any other members of the asbestos industry Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SW ETONIC-Direct tha t you know of th<St Hill and Kn<owl ton had associated with or represented in the past? A The only one that comes to mind is, is now Raymcirk Corporation or formerly Raybest<os-Manhattan. Q Do you kn<ow anything about Hill and Knowlton1 s association with the Asbestos Information Association in Great Britain? A No, I know it no longer exists, I mean the relationship. But I -- I don't know whether it didn't or anything. Q Does Hill and Knowlton still represent Johns-Manville? A I believe so. Q Do you have anything to do with that account? A No. Q Does Hill and Knowlton still represent Pittsburgh Plate Glass? A I believe so. Q account? Do you have anything to do with that A I have in the past had something to do with them, but not in recent years. Q Have you ever represented Pittsburgh Plate Glass on the subject of asbestos and health? Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct A NO. Q Does your particular division maintain files on asbestos and health? A Yes. Q Okay. And who is the custodian of those files? A I suppose I am. Q Did you have a personal file on that? A No. What we have is just a lot of, you know, books, published articles on asbestos and health of one type or another. Q Do you have a file concerning correspondence or memoranda concerning your , representation of present or former members of the asbestos industry? A Not anymore. \ ii 1 C What happened to that file? A In the normal course of destroying files they were put in a transcript file when we no longer had worked for the Association, and they*ve long since been j j destroyed. Q Have you ever -- when I said you I mean - Hill and Knowlton -- give any advice to any member of the asbestos industry on the placement of warnings on asbestos products? I Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct 79 A Not me personally. And I don't# I can't answer for anybody else. Q Have you ever prepared press releases on behalf of any member of the asbestos industry or organization, to your knowledge? A I would assume that when we were working for the Asbestos Information Association in '73 and *74 that we did that, but I have no recollection of what they might have been about. Q Do you know a Don Ferguson? A No. Q What about Holly Spence? A No. Q Do you know Mr. Moster, M-o-s-t-e-r? A NO. Q How about Tabolt, T-a-b-o-l-t? A No. Q Burke, B-u-r-k-e? A No. Q Okay. What about a Mr. Smedley? A Smedley? I believe he's in our Chicago office. MR. PLACITELLA: Can we have this marked P-4? (The above-mentioned document is marked as P-4 for Identification.) Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct Q Looking at a document which I'll show you which is marked P-4 dated June 10, 1987, which has been produced to me by Hill and Knowlton in response to my subpoena the last time we were here, do you recall discussing in Chicago the formation of a science advisory board concerning the health aspects of fiberglass? A Vaguely. I don't remember the nature of the discussion, to be honest with you. Q Are you familiar with the medical studies done by Dr. Enterline? A Just from what I've read in the newspapers. Q What have you read? A I don't recall anymore. Fiberglass is not a field that I know very much about. Q Okay. I'm going read to you a paragraph from this document. Just tell me if this is true or not. It says: "We have discussed the formation of a science advisory board in Chicago as well as with Mat Swetonic of Hill and Knowlton/New York City, who is well aware of Dr. Enterline and his research, the creation of science advisory boards, and is completely . familiar with the asbestos as well as fiberglass issues." Is that a true statement? A Asbestos, yes. Fiberglass, no. And as I said. Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct my only information on Phil's study is what I've read in the Times and other placesf Wall Street Journal/ whatever. Q Have you ever met Dr. Enterline? A Yes. Q In what context? A He was doing research for# I can't remember who# probably Manville on asbestos in terms of the# the maintenance people in asbestos factories who seem to have a higher rate of disease than normal workers. He did some work on that for# I believe for Johns-Manville. Q Did you ever discuss with him his studies concerning the health aspects of fiberglass? A No. Q Are you familiar with an organization known as TIMA? A Yes. Q What is your familiarity with TIMA? A Johns-Manville had been a member of it when I was at the company. And I just -- and I knew the executive director. In fact# he lived in my hometown where I live now. Q Who is that? A Jack Barnhardt. Its the same organization I'm Brody & Geiser (201> 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct 8: thinking of. Q Can you recall expressing "that a panel separate from TIMA would lend more credibility than an industry group trying to repudiate Enterline's findings or offer commentary on any future research findings"? A I don't recall making a statement like that. Q Let me read this paragraph to you and see if this refreshes your memory. A This is something I wrote? Q This is a memo that Hill and Rnowlton gave me -- A I see. Q -- from the Hill and Knowlton files. MS. FIGUEREDO: Can we make a copy of ; l , this, too? MR. PLACITELLA; I mean, you gave me the I j j original. MS. FIGUEREDO: Irealize that, but we don't have it in front of me. j i | j MR. PLACITELLA: Well, sure, make a copy. I'll ask a couple questions in the meantime. Q Have you ever heard of a man named Jerry B1 izin? A Jerry Blizin. j Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 e 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct Q who is he? A Yes. Q Who is he? A He was a Hill and Knowlton employee in your Washington office# Q And what was his job? A He was a senior vice-president down there. Q Did he have anything to do with the asbestos and/or fiberglass industry, to your knowledge? A He, he worked on an asbestos account down there a couple years ago I know. Q Do you know what account thatwas? A It was, I believe, a Canadian asbestos coalition of some type. Q What about Gary Nash, do you know who he is? A I don't believe so. Q The same doesn't soundfamiliar to you? A Gary Nash? Q Right. A No. Q I am going to ask you to look at the second full paragraph. It says: *Swetonic worked for fifteen years in this area and knows the players in the asbestos battle as well as the fiberglass issue. Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct 8; Swetonic said, and we agree, that a panel separate from TIMA would lend more credibility than an industry group trying to repudiate Enterline's findings or offer commentary on any future research findings." Do you recall that? A This is not an accurate reflection of anything that I might have said. Q Well, what did you say? A To my recollection, you know, in and this does refresh it somewhat, that -- in the first place, I never told her that I was an expert on fiberglass. : Q Who? ; A This person Holly Spence. I assume she works in our Chicago office, is all I can gather from this. And j I as I recall, the discussion that what, what I had suggested to her is that they get some outside experts, medical doctors and that sort of thing, to form an advisory panel to, to whoever, I guess to TIMA, yeah, to advise them on how to, how to react to these things. But never, I would not have said "repudiate Enterline's findings" or anything like that. She's putting words in my mouth that I don't recall ever saying. Q That's Holly Spence's characterization? a That's correct. 0 Did you discuss the role and mission of Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 SWETONIC-Direct a 1 that particular advisory board with her? 2A I don't recall. I don't recall. 3 Q Do you recall saying to her that the 4 "mission statements would include a concern for general 5 health and safety and stress the group's interest in 6 maintaining a totally independent body for review of 7 all research methodology"? 8A Probably some of these are my ideas, but I 9 cannot remember which ones, to be totally honest with 10 you. 11 Q Do you know a Dr. Anderson? 12 A Where Dr. Anderson? Oh, I see. No, I have' no 13 idea who he is. 14 Q Do you know if Dr. Anderson is currently 15 the medical director for Johns-Manville Corporation? 16 A I don't know. 17 Q You ever hear of a Dr. Dobban of 18 Owens-Corning Piberglas? 19 A No. 20 Q Do you know of any videotape made by Drs. 21 Dobban, Anderson, and Rill and Knowlton to express the 22 fiberglass industry's views on the health aspects of 23 fiberglass? 24 A No. 25 Q Who at Hill and Knowlton would have that Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct 36 kind of knowledge? A I don * t know. Q Who is in charge today, to your knowledge, of Certain-Teed, Johns-Manville, and Owens-Corning fiberglass in terms of the fiberglass industry at Hill and Knowlton? A I just -- I don't know. Q Who would know that? A I believe -- like I said, Manville is the only one X know we work for. And I think Bob Stone, who you've already deposed, works for them. Q You ever hear of a woman Dottie Wackerman? A No. Q Well, your division handles issues of and advises on health to various industry members, correct? A That is correct. Q What other division of Hill and Knowlton is involved in that? A Well, you have to understand that each office will, to a large extent, attempt to do it's own consulting in this area if they can get away with it. Meaning that it's good for their, for their bottom line - for their division. So Chicago will do some of it, Washington will do some of it. We just have no knowledge of it up here in New York. i Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SW ETONIC-Direct Q You have a counterpart to your department in Chicago and Washington? A Not a counterpart* But just people who will call us in when they*re faced with these sorts of issues. Q Are you aware as to whether the Chicago office is an advisor to TIMA? A X have no knowledge of that. MS. FIGUEREDO: What does TIMA stand for? THE WITNESS: Thermal Manufacturers Insulation Association. Q Am I correct that you have no knowledge concerning Hill and Knowlton's representation of the fiberglass, anyone in the fiberglass industry? A That's correct. Q Are you aware of any presentations made by members of the fiberglass industry in conjunction with Hill and Knowlton comparing the hazard of asbestos to fiberglass? A No. Q Is it the practice of Hill and Knowlton to, when dealing with a subject for presentation to the public, to make videotapes practicing the presentation on behalf of the speaker? A That would be -- not necessarily standard, but Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0544 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct it would be frequently done. Q Do you know whether that was ever done by any member of the asbestos industry with the assistance of Hill and Knowlton? A Not to my knowledge. Q Well, you know that Hill and Knowlton has done that with respect to Johns-Manville and it's approach to the bankruptcy, correct? A Yes. Q You've seen those videotapes? A I've not seen the videotapes. Q You know that that was videotaped? A I knew that was going on, yes. Q And that you i;. fact had knowledge of Johns-Manville formulating a public relations campaign for employees and the public in terms of bankruptcy and the issues related thereto; is that correct? A I was not involved in it. Q Who was involved in it? A Basically it was our Chicago office. Q So does your Chicago office also represent Johns-Manville and do work independent of the New York _ office? A To the best of my knowledge. Q What is the division of labor or j I ii Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 1 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Dicect 89 responsibility in terms of the representation of Manville between the New York and Chicago office? A i don't really know. Bob Stone who handles Manville used to be in our Chicago office. So that's basically where it started. Q Do you know who is in charge of the Manville account out of the Chicago office now? A No# I do not. Q Do you recall ever having spoken to a Holly Spence? A Yeah, having seen this now I do. Q Who is she? A She must work in our Chicago office, is all I can say. Q When did you speak to her? A Well# just on the basis of this# it would appear to be June of last year. MS. FIGUEREDO: Do you have any independent recollection other than from this document? ' | i | THE WITNESS: No# not really. I mean# just very vague. - Q Did you ever suggest that research concerning the health aspects of fiberglass have been conducted through the cancer research institute? ________________________________________________________________________________________________ Brody 6 Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETCNIC-Direct A I don't recall making such a recommendation. Q Can you recall any instances in the past where Hill and Knowlton advised any member of the insulation industry to set up research foundations or medical research to help assist it on the asbestos and health issues A Only the, only going back to the establishment of that joint program with Selikoff back in the late 1 60s. Q Other than that, you can't think of any? A No, I cannot think of any. Q In your capacity at the Asbestos Information Association, had you ever discussed the hazards of asbestos specifically with any industry member representatives other than Johns-Manville? MS. FIGUEREDO: Can you repeat the question? (Read back.) A Well, that was the purpose of the trade association. So, sure/ with all the other member companies when they would come to meetings or whatever. Q I'm reading from P-2, the statement that says; "Most finished asbestos-containing products when correctly used will not produce dust levels high enough to be a hazard to workers." Do you know what is meant Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct 91 by the term "correctly used"? A No. As I said, I had nothing to do with preparing that document. Q Can you tell me what publications your division reviews on a regular basis on behalf of its clients to determine whether there were any articles concerning health hazards in industry in general? A Our division, as opposed to Hill and Rnowlton research which would, you know, look at newspapers and regular magazines, we have subscriptions to about 120 or 130 separate medical publications of one type or another. Q And do you have a list of that? A No. X mean --. Q You don't maintain a list of that? A No, I really don't. Q During the time that Hill and Rnowlton represented Johns-Manville and the AIA Association of North America, can you tell me what industry publications and medical journals that Hill and Rnowlton reviewed on a regular basis for its clients? A No, not really. It's, you know, the standard - New England Journal of Medicine. Journal of American Cancer Society, you know, the usual stuff. Q Am I correct that there is a staff at Hill i I Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SW ETON IC-Direct 9 and Knowlton that actually, that's part of their job responsibilities? A That's correct, 0 Where does that staff work out of? A Out of my division. Q And who heads that staff? A Marie Overfors. Q How long has she had that job? A Just a year. Q Prior to that was there some staff still in place to do that job? A Just normally one person. Q Do you know if an article, for instance, was found on asbestos and health, what would you do with that article in terms of your clients? A Well, right now basically nothing because we don't have any clients in the asbestos area. Q But at the time that Hill and Knowlton represented the asbestos industry in terms of Johns-Manville and the AIA. A That function, that research function didn't exist in this division at that time. Q Did it exist somewhere else within Hill and Knowlton? A I don't really recall. Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 SWETONIC-Direct 92 1 Q Did there come a time when Hill and 2 Knowlton stopped representing Johns-Manville? 3A To the best of my knowledge they represent them 4 today. 5 Q When is the last time that you know Hill 6 and Knowlton represented Johns-Manville concerning the 1 issues of asbestos and health? 8A I have no knowledge of anything that we have 9 done for Manville, personal knowledge. 10 Q When is the last time that Hill and 11 Knowlton represented the Asbestos Information 12 Association? 13 A I believe the end of 1974. Somewhere in that 14 ballpark. 15 Q What why was that relationship terminated? 16 A As I said before, we were retained, specifically 17 me, to bring Bob Marinas who replaced me up to speed, 18 when they felt that that had been accomplished, then we 19 were let go. 20 Q What did you do to bring Bob Marinas up to 21 speed? 22 A He just, you know, he had to learn all about - 23 asbestos and health. He knew nothing about it, nothing 24 about any of the issues. And that was just a process 25 that went on for a period of time. Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETCNIC-Direct Q Who was the individual or individuals who taught him about that issue? A Well#- taught is probably too strong a word. But basically me and the other people in the industry. Q Such as? A Well# it would be the people from the member companie s. Q Any particular doctors instruct him or give him advice# to your knowledge? A I can't recall. Q Did the Asbestos Information Association at the time Hill and Knowlton represented them have medical advisors? A Did the Association have medical advisors? Q Right. A I believe only through the member companies. Q Well# that's what I'm trying to understand. Did the member companies each have a medical director or a medical person on a board or something at it AIA? A Not all of the companies had medical directors or outside consultants that worked with them. Those# _ some of them did and they would# there was a committee as I recall of those doctors. Q And would they review any publications or Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETCN IC-Oirect presentations made by the AIA on behalf of the industry membe r s ? A Yes, I believe they would, as I recall. Q Can you tell me specifically which doctors you can recall dealing with from those companies? A I believe George Wright. I believe around that time Manville had retained Dr. Paul Kotin as well. There was a doctor from Ravbestos# but I cannot remember his name, I believe. And those are the only ones that frankly come to mind. Q Did any member of the insurance industry ever have any relationship with Hill and Knowlton in terms of the issues of asbestos and health? A Not to my knowledge. Q Now# was there a policy within the Asbestos Information Association that nothing could be released unless it was approved by the member companies# and that no statement should be made without the approval of the member companies? A Well# there was -- there was an approval process. I cannot specifically say what it was. I know that not everybody had to approve a statement that _ needed to be made in a short period of time. But I don't remember what the approval process was. Q But generally there was approval on behalf Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETCNIC-Direct 96 of the industry members - A Yes. Q -- of anything that was published or presented? A That's correct. Q So, for instancer were you made a presentation to Congress, the substance of that , presentation would have to be approved by the member companies or members of it? | A That's correct, although I've never made a; presentation to Congress or any Congressional committee. Q For instance, when you testified before j ji OSHA -- A Yes* Q -- was the substance of your testimony first reviewed by the member companies? A Yes. Q Before any of these pamphlets are sent out are they all approved by the member companies? A If the pamphlets were produced when I was there, yes. What happens today, I have no idea. . Q Am I correct that you as you sit here today you don't have a recollection of a specific approval procedure? Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct 9' A X have no idea. Q Do you know whether Hill and Knowlton every gave advice to Manville or any member of the AIA on product packaging? A Product packaging? Not to the best of my recolle ction. Q Do you know whether Hill and Knowlton ever prepared any press releases or publications in response to the passing of OSHA regulations on behalf of its clients? A with regard to asbestos? Q Right. A I don't think Hill and Knowlton did. Q Do you know whether the AIA ever prepared presentations or publications in response to the passing of OSHA regulations on behalf of its member companies? A It is my recollection that when I was at the AIA that I prepared a press release when the OSHA standards were issued in June of 1973, I believe. June of '73? *72, sorry. Q What was the substance of the press release ? A Just simply, I believe, that the, as I recalled it was very short, that the industry found the OSHA Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 S W E T C NIC-Direct standard to be acceptable, and that we believe that they would be protective of workers in the asbestos industry. Something to that effect, very simple. Q Did you ever prepare, that is Hill and Knowlton, help prepare any statements or press releases in response to any court case involving asbestos in the industry? A Not to the best of my knowledge. Q How about the Asbestos Information Association? A Not that I have been involved with, no. MR. PLACITELLA: I don't think I have much more. Why don't we take a couple minutes and I'll look at everything rather than do lunch. (Recess.) Q I only have a couple more questions. A Sure. Q In your capacity with the AIA or with Hill and Knowlton, have you ever dealt with a Dr. Hilton Lewinsohn? A I know him. Q How do you know him? - A He was originally -- when I first met him he was working for one of the British asbestos companies. I can't remember which one. And then he came to the Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 16 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETCNIC-Direct States and had a job with Ravbestos. That's how I know him. Q Can you recall the last time you had any contact with him? A Oh, gosh, probably fifteen years ago would be my best guess. Q Was the company that Lewinsohn worked for in Great Britain and a member of the Great Britain AIA? A Yes. Q Is that the context in which you met him? A Yes. Q what is the relationship between the AIA and Great Britain and in the United States -- > A No formal relationship. Q -- at the time? j | A I'm talking fifteen, sixteen years ago. j Q Right. A There was no formal relationship. We did not j | ! have joint meetings or anything. But when their people were in the States that he would meet with our people j | j on various aspects of environmental control or whatever. . Q You would exchange information? A Yes. Q Now, did the AIA in Great Britain have any Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 o 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct medical advisors to your knowledge? A Yes, they did. Whether they were member company people or outside consultants. I'm not totally sure. Lewinsohn, for example, he was a doctor. My impression was he worked for the company. He might have been an outside consultant. Q Do you know when the AIA of Great Britain was established? A Prior to the one in the United States is about the best I can tell you. Q Is my understanding correct that Hill and Knowlton at no time employed medical advisors 1 concerning the issue of asbestos and health? A That1s correct. Q They simply took advantage of whatever their clients' medical people A That's correct. Q And lastly, is my understanding correct that the AIA of North America still exists today, to your knowledge? A Yes, because we get their newsletters. G How often do you get their newsletter? . A I really don't know. I don't know what the frequency of that is. Q Do you know where the AIA is located? Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 SWETCNIC-Direc IA Near Washington somewhere. 2 Q What is contained in the newsletter? 3A As I recall, and I, you know, don't go through 4 the thing very frequently just simply because we don't 5 have any clients, reports on new health studies new 6 regulations, you know, that sort of stuff. 7 Q I don't think I have any other questions 8 at this time. I don't know. Thank you very much. 9 MR. CATINO: I have no questions. 10 MR. CONNELL: I have no questions. 11 MR. LEE: No questions. 12 MR. BOYLAN: No questions. 13 EXAMINATION BY MR. PLACITELLA: 14 Q Have you ever had any dealings with Dr. 15 Ray Murphy? 16 A No. 17 Q How about Margaret Becklake? 18 A I'mfamiliar with the name. 19 Q How about Hans Weil? 20 A Yes. 21 Q What is your connection with Dr. Hans 22 Weil# or how did you know him? 23 A He was, when I knew him he was a professor of 24 epidemiology or some such thing at University of Tulane 25 Medical School. And yeah# okay. I have to change Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SWETONIC-Direct something I said before. I believe that the AIA did hire him as a consultant on the EPA because I believe he testified on our behalf at an EPA hearing. I be 1ieve. Q Did he advise the AIA on issues of asbestos and health from time to time? A Yes. Yeah, he did. Q How was he compensated? A I really don't recall. Q Do you know if he was paid by the hour or per project? A I really don't remember. Q Have you ever heard of a Dr. Roger Mitchell? A No. Q How about Stuart Brooks? A No. Q Ed Gaensler? A The name is familiar, but I don't have a conte xt. Q How about Mark Urtell? A No, I amnot familiar with the name. Q This struck me, I wanted to ask you this question before. Why is it that you have nothing to do with Johns-Manville anymore if you knew them so Brody & Geiser (201) 738-0555 or (212) 732-0644 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 '2 2 23 24 25 SWETCNIC-Direct intimately and worked there? A Well, two things. Our Chicago office wanted the business, because as you know Manville is in Denver. And so they, for their own basic financial benefit as an office, they kept me out of it. And the second part is, is that they as I understand it, we were primarily hired to deal with their financial situation, which I know nothing, you know, that's not part of my best -- I don't know anything about that sort of stuff. So that's really the answer. Q When you first went to work at the AIA and after leaving Manville - A Yes. Q -- who was paying you? A TheAIA. Q How was the AIA financed? A By the contributions of member companies. Q Was it an annual contribution? How does it work? A I don't really recall the law firm that handled how the billings were done. - Q What law firms? A This one, this fellow before, that I mentioned before. I don't remember the name of the firm. Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644 SWETCNIC-Direct 1 Q Now, you said in your professional 2 capacity you've had no contact with the AIA since 1974; 3 is that correct? 4A That's correct. We have not done any work for 5 them since then. * 6 Q Have you had any personal contact with the 7 AIA? 8A Yes, I made a speech to them about five years or 9 six years ago, for which we were not compensated. 10 Q Concerning what? 11 A Advising them that basically they ought to do 12 more public relations, trying to get business. 13 Q A business promotion? 14 A That's right, exactly. 15 Q Anything else other than that? 16 A No. 17 MR. PLACITELLA: Okay, thank you very 18 much. I don't have any other questions. 19 (Adjourned 1:01 p.m.) 20 21 22 23 24 25 Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644