Document MJYJQMEaVQkkmmbnNowVwVDQ9
FILE NAME: ALCOA (ALC) DATE: 2012 Apr 19 DOC#: ALC084 DOCUMENT DESCRIPTION: Legal-Deposition of Jeffrey Shockey
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt
* ROUGH DRAFT *
Deposition of: Jeffrey A. Shockey
Taken on: Thursday, April 19, 2012 at 9:16 a.m.
Location:
Omni William Penn Hotel 530 William Penn Place Pittsburgh, PA 15219
Party taking deposition: Plaintiffs Devin McNulty, Esq.
Also
appearing,
Attorneys: Bill D. Fountain Angela S. Komisarz
Brian Armstrong Cameron Carter Thi T. Gillies Wade Carpenter
Reported by: Catherine C. Leverty Court Reporter and Notary Public
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CAUSE NO. 2006-50286 BEFORE THE ASBESTOS MDL PRE-TRIAL JUDGE
DARRELL POLK, et a l .,
IN THE DISTRICT COURT OF
Plaintiffs,
HARRIS COUNTY, TEXAS
V.
11th JUDICIAL DISTRICT
ALCOA, INC., et a l .,
Defendants.
transferred from CAUSE DC-06-06879-A DARRELL POLK, et al., ) IN THE DISTRICT COURT OF
) Plaintiffs ) DALLAS COUNTY, TEXAS
)
v.
) A-14th JUDICIAL DISTRICT
ALCOA, INC., et al ., Defendants
) ) ) DEPOSITION TRANSCRIPT OF: ) JEFFREY A. SHOCKEY
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt VIDEOTAPE DEPOSITION DATE: April 19, 2012 Thursday, 9:16 a.m. PARTY TAKING DEPOSITION: Piai nti ffs COUNSEL OF RECORD FOR THIS PARTY: Devin McNulty, Esq. WILLIAMS KHERKHER HART BOUNDAS, LLP 8441 Gulf Freeway Suite 600 Houston, TX 77017 REPORTED BY: Catherine C. Leverty Notary Public
CAUSE NO . 2007-00806 BEFORE THE ASBESTOS MDL PRE-TRIAL JUDGE
MARY ADAMS, et al., Plaintiffs,
V.
ALCOA, INC., et al ., Defendants.
) IN THE DISTRICT COURT OF ) ) HARRIS COUNTY, TEXAS ) ) 11th JUDICIAL DISTRICT ) ) ) )
transferred from
CAUSE 56-11460
MARY ADAMS, et al .,
) IN THE DISTRICT COURT OF
) Plaintiffs, )
DALLAS COUNTY, TEXAS
)
V.
) H-160TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
)
ALCOA, INC., et al .,
)
)
Defendants. )
CAUSE NO . 2008-46520 BEFORE THE ASBESTOS MDL PRE-TRIAL JUDGE BETTY BARTLETT, et al., ) IN THE DISTRICT COURT OF
) Plaintiffs, )
HARRIS COUNTY, TEXAS
)
V.
) 11th JUDICIAL DISTRICT
)
ALCOA, INC., et a l .,
)
)
Defendants. )
transferred from
CAUSE 08-05488-A
BETTY BARTLETT, et al., ) IN THE
COUNTY
COURT
) Plaintiffs, )
AT LAW NO. 1
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt
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v.
) DALLAS COUNTY, TEXAS
24 ALCOA, INC., et al .,
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Defendants.
CAUSE NO. 2011-60385 BEFORE THE ASBESTOS MDL PRE-TRIAL JUDGE
MARGARET J. MUCKLEROY, et al.,
Plaintiffs, v.
) IN THE DISTRICT COURT OF )
HARRIS COUNTY, TEXAS
11th JUDICIAL DISTRICT
6 ALCOA, INC., et a l .,
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Defendants.
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transferred from
CAUSE 08-05488-A
9 MARGARET J. MUCKLEROY, ) IN THE DISTRICT COURT
et al.,
)
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) DALLAS COUNTY, TEXAS
Pi ai nti ffs , )
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) 14th JUDICIAL DISTRICT
v.
)
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)
ALCOA, INC., et al.,
)
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)
Defendants. )
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CAUSE NO. 2007-36691
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BEFORE THE ASBESTOS MDL PRE-TRIAL JUDGE
16 BOBBY G. PEPPER, et al ) IN THE DISTRICT COURT OF
)
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Piai nti ffs,
HARRIS COUNTY, TEXAS
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v.
11th JUDICIAL DISTRICT
19 ALCOA, INC., et a l .,
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Defendants. transferred from
CAUSE 07-04143 BOBBY G. PEPPER, et a l ., ) IN THE DISTRICT COURT OF
) Plaintiffs, )
DALLAS COUNTY, TEXAS
)
V.
) 298th JUDICIAL DISTRICT
)
ALCOA, INC., et a l .,
)
)
VIDEOTAPE DEPOSITION OF JEFFREY A. SHOCKEY, a witness, called by the Plaintiffs for examination, in accordance with the Texas Rules of Civil Procedure, taken by and before Catherine C. Leverty, a Court Reporter and Notary Public in and for the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, at the Omni william Penn Hotel, 530 william Penn Place, Pittsburgh,
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Pennsylvania, on Thursday, April 19, 2012, at 9:16 a.m.
------APPEARANCES:
FOR THE PLAINTIFFS: Devin McNulty, Esq.: (via telephone) WILLIAMS KHERKHER HART BOUNDAS, LLP 8441 Gulf Freeway, Suite 600 Houston, TX 77017 dmcnulty@williamskherkher.com
Draft).txt commencing
FOR THE DEFENDANT ALCOA, INC. and THE WITNESS: Bill D. Fountain, Esq. HAWKINS PARNELL THACKSTON & YOUNG, LLP Three Embarcadero Center, 8th Floor San Francisco, CA 94111-4024
FOR THE DEFENDANT CRANE CO. (in Adams only): Angela S. Komisarz, Esq.: (via telephone) K&L GATES, LLP 1717 Main Street, Suite 2800 Dallas, TX 75201 angel a .komi sarz@klgates.com
case
FOR THE DEFENDANT GENERAL ELECTRIC (in Muckleroy case only): Brian Armstrong, Esq.: (via telephone) MEHAFFY WEBER 2615 Calder Avenue, Suite 800 Beaumont, TX 77702
APPEARANCES: (Continued) FOR THE DEFENDANT LGS
Cameron Carter, Esq.: (via MARCUS A. CARROLL, P.C. 909 ESE Loop 323 Suite 215 Tyler, TX 75701 camcarter01@gmail.com
TECHNOLOGIES, telephone)
L.P.:
FOR THE DEFENDANT GUARDLINE (in the Adams, Bartlett, Britton, Pepper and Polk cases): Thi T. Gillies, Esq.: (via telephone) DOGAN & WILKINSON, PLLC 734 Delmas Avenue Pascagoula, MS 39567
FOR THE DEFENDANT TRIPLEX: Wade Carpenter, Esq.: (via telephone) MEHAFFY WEBER 2615 Calder Avenue, Suite 800 Beaumont, TX 77702
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt ALSO PRESENT: John Farren, Videotape Operator
* I N D EX * Direct Examination by Mr. McNulty - - - - - - - Cross-Examination by Mr. Fountain - - - - - - - Redirect Examination by Mr. McNulty - - - - - - Certificate of Court Reporter - - - - - - - - - Errata Sheet - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Notice of Non-Waiver of Signature - - - - - - -
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* INDEX OF EXHIBITS *
EXHIBIT
PAGE
1 Alcoa's objections to Plaintiffs' Notice of Mr. Shockey (Polk) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 2 4
2 Alcoa's objections to Plaintiffs' Notice of Mr. Shockey (Adams) - - - - - - - - - - - - - 24
3 Alcoa's objections to Plaintiffs' Notice of Mr. Shockey (Bartlett) - - - - - - - - - - - - 2 4
4 Alcoa's objections to Plaintiffs' Notice of Mr. Shockey (Muckleroy/Britton) - - - - - - - 24
5 Alcoa's objections to Plaintiffs' Notice of Mr. Shockey (Pepper) - - - - - - - - - - - - - 2 4
6 Compilation 9-page document, double-sided, page 1 reflecting a 2-16-62 letter to Cralley from Regehr - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 4 0
VIDEOTAPE OPERATOR: Counsel, will you please now state your appearance and firm affiliation for the record?
MR. MCNULTY: This is Devin McNulty, for the plaintiffs, at williams Kherkher Hart & Boundas.
MR. FOUNTAIN: This is Bill Fountain, her for Alcoa, inc., I'm with Hawkins Parnell Thackston & Young.
MS. KOMISARZ: Angela Komisarz, with K&L Gates is here for Crane Co. in the Mary Adams, et al . case only.
MR. CARPENTER: This is Wade Carpenter of Mehaffy Weber here for Triplex in the Muckleroy case only.
MS. GILLIES: This is Thi Gillies, Page 5
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from Dogan & Wilkinson, for Guardline, and I'm
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in the Adams, Bartlett, Britton, Pepper and Polk
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cases.
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MR. CARTER: This is Cameron Carter,
with Marcus A. Carroll, P.C., I'm representing
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LGS Technologies in the Margaret Muckleroy case
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only.
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MR. ARMSTRONG: This is Brian
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Armstrong for General Electric in the Muckleroy
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case.
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(witness sworn.)
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MR. FOUNTAIN: Devin, before -- this
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doesn't need to be on the record yet.
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(There was a discussion off the record.)
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JEFFREY A. SHOCKEY,
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having been duly sworn,
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was examined and testified as follows:
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DIRECT EXAMINATION
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17 BY MR. MCNULTY:
18 Q. Good morning, Mr. Shockey.
19 A. Good morning.
20 Q. How are you?
21 A. Fine, thanks.
22 Q. Good. My name is Devin McNulty, and I represent
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the plaintiffs, the families of the plaintiffs
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in these cases; okay?
25 A. Okay.
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1 Q. Have you reviewed all the documents no, sir give
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your opinions and provide your testimony in
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these cases today?
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MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form.
5 A. All eye eye is a pretty broad category but I
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would say I reviewed those documents that I
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think my attorney and others have presented for
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me for this case.
9 Q. As you sit here right now you're ready to
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proceed with the deposition, we don't need to
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come back another day?
12 A. That's correct.
13 Q. Okay. You are Alcoa's corporate representative
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in this case; true?
15 A. True.
16 Q. You have been selected by Alcoa to testify on
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their behalf in this case; true?
18 A. True.
19 Q. You are the voice of Alcoa for the jury; true?
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. Your answers will bind Alcoa in court; true?
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MR. FOUNTAIN: objection, form.
23 A. I think that requires me to draw a legal
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conclusion which I'm not qualified to do, but I
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am sworn to tell the truth of what I know.
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt And you are speaking on behalf of Alcoa; true? That's correct. Roughly how many employees does Alcoa have today? Roughly, about 60 thousand employees worldwide. Do you know how many living retirees Al key has today? I do not. Do you have any general estimate as to how many living retirees Alcoa has today? I don't. How were you selected by Alcoa to be its corporate representative?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. I guess, frankly, I don't know why I was selected over other individuals, and I wouldn't want to presume or assume that, but, obviously, I'm in that role here today. Okay. Do you not know how you were selected by Alcoa to be its corporate representative; true? True. Okay. Have you testified before for Alcoa as a corporate representative? Yes. On on how many occasions?
I believe five. Have all five of those occasions been in asbestos cases? No. What other types of cases have you testified for on behalf of Alcoa as a corporate representative? Cases before an administrative law judge, cases involving accident 1iabi1ity-type issues. Of the five times you have been selected by Alcoa to serve as a corporate representative is this the third time you have given testimony in an asbestos case? To the best of my recollection, yes. So this is the sixth time, this deposition that we're here for today is the sixth time that you have testified as a corporate representative for Alcoa; true? On behalf of Alcoa, yes. Okay. Have you ever testified as a corporate representative on behalf of any other corporation? NO. Alcoa has medical libraries; true? At some point we have, yes.
Does Alcoa no longer have a medical library? We certainly have medical information, whether you'd call it a library or not, I don't think it would be a library, it's bookshelves with files and things like that, and historical medical records, but not what I'd term a library in the context of what the general population would view as a library.
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt Have you seen these bookshelves with medical materials on them? Yes, some of them. How big are the ones you've seen?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. The ones, the bookshelves that I've seen that relate to occupational health in general, probably, let's say six, maybe, of different books, manuals, so forth. So you've seen a bookshelf or you've seen six shelves? Just, I'm not certain, what did you see six of? They'd be textbooks, they would be reference books on different subjects related to health, safety, environmental control issues. They might be copies of regulations, they may be copies of programs and procedures that are
current today and maybe historical programs and procedures. So, if I'm clear, you've seen bookshelves that Alcoa has, medical texts on, and that comprises roughly six different texts, true?
MR. f o u n t a i n : Objection to form. Medical texts would be a small proportion, or a proportion of those six shelves, not exclusively the medical alone, but would include environmental, health, safety, and those six bookshelves, or those six shelves, may be, you know, four feet long each and span a can you please many decades' worth of material, some of which is outdated, some of which is current, so forth. where are those bookshelves located, in the Alcoa corporate center? And where is that? Pi ttsburgh. You are in Pittsburgh today? That's correct. Alcoa was found indeed Pittsburgh; true? That's correct. The six bookshelves that are roughly four feet long, would that include Alcoa's industrial
hygiene library, as well? I think would it include a portion of it. You know, today we're an electronic world so when you say library, there's thousands of reference materials out there in the public domain, in the government domain and other places, even within our own facilities (plural {SPHFPLT} (that comprise the entire portfolio of knowledge that's available. Okay. And the point I'm making is the entire portfolio of knowledge that is available, has any of that been placed offlimits to you? Well, it depends. I mean, I certainly can't look at individual personnel medical records or personnel files, you know, those aren't something that are generally distributed to the broad audience, including non health
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt professionals, and which I 'm not, so there are certain files that would obviously not typically
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Q.
be accessible by somebody like myself. Okay. Excluding employee's personal medical
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files is anything else offlimits to you? MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form.
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A.
Not that I'm aware of but I mean there maybe certain legal requirements that, you know,
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sequester some information or something from
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past cases. I can't answer that because I just don't know the context of everything that's out
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there. In your preparation for this case have you been
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A.
denied access to any document? To my knowledge, no.
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How did you prepare to testify in this case? I met with Mr. Fountain for the last two days,
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we reviewed some material, which I believe you probably have, and, obviously, you know, have
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some historical reference from the previous two cases that we've already discussed.
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I don't want to know anything about your conversations with Mr. Fountain, so with that in
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mind did you have any conversations with anyone else in preparation to testify in your
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deposition? In preparation for this specific deposition, --
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Yes, sir. -- no.
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Yes, sir. MR. FOUNTAIN: He said no, Devin.
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MR. MCNULTY: Sorry, because
we're
separated
by
so
much
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distance and I'm on the phone, some of the
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answers are cutting off at the beginning or end. If I ask the same question again it's probably
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because I didn't heater answer or because we're talking over each other because we're not this
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in the same room, so I want to apologize in advance for any of that; okay?
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AQ..
Okay. Is it my understanding that your entire
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preparation for this specific deposition was meeting with your attorney approximately two
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days ago? MR. f o u n t a i n : Objection, form.
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My entire preparation for this deposition? I received documents to review prior to meeting
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with Mr. Fountain, and, you know, there was requests for information prior to this.
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Q.
A.
How long have you known about this deposition? I couldn't give an exact date, but I suspect
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sometime first part of this year, you know, there were some interrogatories that probably
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passed through my desk to actually sign, those sort of things, so you probably have those
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Q.
dates. You've been aware of this deposition sometime
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt
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January or February of 2012; true?
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A. Q.
True. You were not at Alcoa Rockdale in the 1950s; true?
5 A. True.
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Q.
You were not at Alcoa Rockdale in the 1960s either?
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True. You were not at Alcoa Rockdale in the 1970s;
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true?
11 A. True.
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Q.
Alcoa, at all times, has been responsible for the safety of its employees; true?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form.
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A.
All times is a broad category. Certainly Alcoa has opinion responsible for the safety of its
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employees during their working career and their working tenure (quotes beginning)
19 Q. Alcoa aid not delegate the safety of its
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employees to anyone other than itself; true?
21 A. That would be correct 69 Bill, do you have the
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depo notice with you? MR. FOUNTAIN:
notices with me.
I have five depo
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MR. Mc Nu l t y : Okay, what I'm getting
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at, the second page of any of the depo notices,
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which is our request for the designation, I'd like it if you could put that in front of him.
MR. FOUNTAIN: Hold on, I may have
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misspoke. I've got it somewhere, I thought I
6789 omhiabdjneutciett.iohnesreMtRoh.atnhdMeCyNUbdLueTtpYo:saliltiSouInreh.anovteichea.nd Jeaurstouar
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(There was a brief pause in the proceedings.)
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MR. McNULTY: Deposition of, I have the one in the Polk case.
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MR. McNULTY: Okay. MR. FOUNTAIN: (Indicating).
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BY MR. McNULTY: Q. Mr. Shockey, if you could turn to the second,
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third and fourth pages of that notice, do you
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see on the top of the second page there's first
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category A, it goes down through M, second page
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is N through bb and then the third page ends with FF, do you see what I'm referring to? Yes.
25 Q. Can you take a moment and look over plaintiff's
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requests for a corporate representative to testify about categories A through FF and tell
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me if there are any of these categories which you are not prepared to testify about today, and
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we can go off the record.
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VIDEOTAPE o p e r a t o r : The time is now 9:34 a.m., we are going off the record.
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt (There was a brief pause in the proceedings.)
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v i d e o t a p e OPERATOR: The time is now
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9:39 a.m., we are back on the record, counsel, you may proceed.
MR. MCNULTY: Thanks.
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BY MR. MCNULTY: Q. Mr. Shockey, you've had a chance to look at this
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notice in the Polk case and I'll represent to you that it should be the same notice as well
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for the Pepper, Britton, Adams and Bartlett
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cases, can you tell me what categories you are
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not prepared to offer corporate representative
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testimony on? Yes. Certainly as written letter L, all studies conducted by or on behalf of Alcoa to determine
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the potential health hazards associated with
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asbestos whether or not they were ever completed town including 1990, that would be very
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difficult for me to be able to describe all studies, (that was up ton including)
5 Q. What else besides L?
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Letter P, all actions taken by Rockdale something something facilities including 1990 to protect workers on its premises from the health
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hazard of toxic substances at work including the
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inhalation of asbestos, I would have no way of
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knowing all actions taken by Rockdale facility
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(he can that) P, what else? R ,, trade journals or other publications or
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subscriptions whether in the name of the (fill in all these from document only, that's a very
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broad category that would include potentially consultants, people that I did not know,
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magazines that I did not know existed and
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people's personal professional references.
21 Q. Okay, what else?
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A. Alcoa Rockdale's facility research and/or medical libraries other its equivalent, we're talking, I believe, in these five cases of a
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time span from 1950 through 1990, there is
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virtually no way for me to know all those research or medical library references. The
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same is true for letter T, Alcoa's corporate research or medical libraries or its equivalent.
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Q. A.
Okay, what else? Letter v, historical and current contractors
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employed upon the facilities of Alcoa's Rockdale facility, with specific focus upon general
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construction, maintenance, insulation,
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demolition, and abatement.
11 Q. Okay.
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Y, historical, pre-1990, work practices and procedures used in dealing with contractors of Alcoa's Rockdale facility, obviously I could
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probably attest to some of those practices, but again, we're talking a time frame from 1950 to
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1990, obviously I wasn't even alive during those
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt time frames and certainly there are thousands of historical records over a 125-year history, there's just no way I'm going to be able to factually say that I have all the historical work practice records dealing with contractors at one of a hundred and some facilities that we have operating around the globe.
AA, life insurance policies taken out
on employees and workers of Alcoa's Rockdale facility, those are bargaining unit-type decisions in unionized locations, they're decisions that were made over the course of 1950 to 1990, except active, all the variables and all the details of that in my capacity (check).
BB, Alcoa's contention that it had no duty or responsibility with regard to the manner, method and means by which Thomas Polk performed his work; to my knowledge this really draws some kind of legal issue, I have no knowledge that Alcoa is contending that at all. Okay. CC, Alcoa's contention that Thomas Polk was negligent, failed to exercise ordinary care, misused asbestos-containing products, again, I'm not aware that Alcoa is actually contending that {STKPHAEUPBG} probably is something that really draws for a legal conclusion that I'm not, you know, able to offer an opinion on. Okay. Let's see, DD, Alcoa's contention that Thomas Polk was not exposed to asbestos at the Alcoa Rockdale facility, I'm not aware that we're making that contention, either, and I assume
that is part of what we're trying to determine in this case, so, you know, I don't know what's being contended one way or the other there. Okay. Death certificates, I do not have in my possession, custody or control or have I seen that I can, to the best of my ability, recall any death certificates, certainly not in these -- this case, or these five cases, and I'm not sure I recall many in the past, if any.
Workers' compensation claims pre-1990 for the diagnosis of asbestos or lung cancer, I generally don't view the details of workers' compensation claims, I do view trends, and things like that, but I don't recall having computer-type access to those kind of trends for data pre-1990. Okay. Mr. Shockey, so if I can summarize --
MR. FOUNTAIN: Devin, can I interrupt for a second?
MR. McNULTY: Yes, sir can go ahead, Bill.
MR. FOUNTAIN: What I would like to do, unless you -- you've already marked that as an exhibit; I'd like to mark Alcoa's objections
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt that have been filed in check check) as Exhibits 1 through 5; is that all right?
MR. McNULTY: Okay. So we are going to -- you have five individual objections and only one notice? Can we stipulate that the notice in Polk counts as the same notice for the other four, as well?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Absolutely. MR. MCNULTY: Okay. (Exhibits Nos. 1 through 5 marked for
identi fi cati o n .) BY MR. MCNULTY: Q. Mr. Shockey, if I can summarize the deposition
notice in these five cases requests that Alcoa designate and produce a person or persons most knowledgeable on the following subjects, my understanding of it is you are not prepared to offer testimony regarding category L, P, R, S, T, V, Y, BB, CC, DD, EE and FF; is that true? A. You missed AA. Q. And AA. A. That's true. Q. Okay. Thank you.
I'm going to ask you some questions regarding the chronology of awareness of various issues relating to {T} asbestos (check {s p h f p l t } (and I'm not telling how to answer these questions and you wouldn't listen to me even if I was but it's okay if you don't know, that's the only caveat I ask before I begin sort of this chronology; okay? A . Okay.
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. MR. McNULTY: Bill, what's the form objection. MR. FOUNTAIN: Well, you kind of gave a little history there, there was a speaking question. MR. McNULTY: All right. BY MR. MCNULTY: Q. Alcoa began monitoring for dust levels in its plants in the 1940s; true? A. Alcoa may have been monitoring for dust levels prior to the 1940s, so to say that they began monitoring for dust levels in the 1940s, could I not say that's a true statement. Q. Okay. And that's because Alcoa may have gun monitoring before the 1940s for dust levels in
its plants; true? A. True. Q. Alcoa was monitoring dust levels in its plants
in the 1940s; true? A. To the best of my recollection I believe that is
correct. Q. Alcoa monitored asbestos dust levels in its
plants in the 1940s; true? Page 13
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt Specific to asbestos, I don't recall, what type of defendant was Alcoa monitoring in the 1940s (that was levels in) My recollection on the absolute details of which dusts (plural), I couldn't say, but I would presume that at the time, that would typically be nuisance dust, things like that. Was asbestos considered a nuisance dust in the 1940s? To the best of my recollection it was either a nuisance dust or a minute early dust. Would asbestos be one of the types of dust that Alcoa was monitoring in the 1940s?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. Monitoring dust in the 1940s, if asbestos was present and in a friable form, it could have been one of the dusts that you would uncover in
sampling, you know, it could have made up part of the composite of a nuisance dust or a minute early fiber sample. Why was Alcoa monitoring dust in its plants in the 1940s?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. That would really cause me to, you know, presuppose what their intent was for all the sampling, but I would say that in general you're sampling for dust, you're sampling for two reasons: You're sampling either to control an environmental control issue because there maybe some regulations relative to air regulations from the environmental standpoint, or health concern with the excessive dust. By the 1940s excessive dust was a health concern to Alcoa; true? I'd say in general, true. Why was it a health concern to Alcoa in the 1940s? xxx whole) I think as you, particularly as you moved to the later 1940s, there were things that the industrial hygiene profession was actually evolving. If you look back at the war years and the late 1930s, public service was active in the
factories and the workplace, that acute injuries like those associated with physical harm, accidents, you know, amputation of a finger or hand, so there generally became an awareness of occupational health issues, and so I think through the war years, and particularly after the war years, in the later '40s, the whole discipline and science around industrial hygiene evolved, and Alcoa, obviously, was part of that learning curve and part of the, you know, Lester Cralley obviously came to Alcoa after his service in the Public Health Service and really started the industrial hygiene program in Alcoa in followup with Dr. Irwin, who was Lester cralley? Lester Cralley came to Alcoa from the U.S. Public Health Service sometime right after World
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt War II. He'd actually met Dr. Dudley Irwin, who was on the Alcoa corporate medical director at the time as I recall. They had met during that time frame. Dr. Irwin was impressed with Lester Cralley, brought him into Alcoa to be really the first industrial health professional, the occupational health professional besides the doctor, himself, and, you know, Lester Cralley was certainly a leader in the industrial hygiene field in the late '40s. In the 1940s Alcoa knew that asbestos was a toxic substance; true?
MR. FOUNTAIN: objection, form. In the 1940s I would say Alcoa knew that asbestos could cause asbestosis, and it certainly had the potential, based on things we learned during World War II with asbestos workers in ship building, that it had the potential for adverse health effects. The extent and the degree of what those health effects were at that time and the exposures that might trigger those health effects I think have evolved since 1940 to what we know today. In the 1940s Alcoa knew that asbestos could be hazardous to people's health; true? in the 1940s I think that Alcoa would know was what the, if I got my date right, the American Conference of Governmental Industrial Hygienists published, in 1947, a threshold limit value, which is really defined as an exposure that's acceptable to a large majority of the population on a day-to-day routine basis over the life of their work history, and as I recall that threshold limit value was 5 million particles per cubic foot. Now, obviously as science has evolved, that also has changed over time, but in 1947, if I have my dates in my head right, that would be what Alcoa knew at the time. Alcoa knew in the 1940s that asbestos could cause asbestosis; true? Whether they knew it would cause asbestosis, certainly by the late 1940s Alcoa should have known, and for all that I can attest to based on the American Conference of Governmental Industrial Hygienists and some of the published literature should or would have known that asbestos can cause adverse health effects. Those health effects were predominantly revealed in the 30s in asbestos workers in the textile industry who directly dealt with the material in a friable form, and asbestos miners.
I would say that end users, like Alcoa, probably didn't have the connection to the full complement of the risk as we know it today and as we knew it later on, you know, several years later with some of the other studies that came out involving end users, what adverse health effects was Alcoa aware, in
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt the 1940s that asbestos could cause?
423
A.
At that point I think it would be viewed as the pneumoconiosis, asbestosis certainly was showing up in some of the literature as we know it today
5
described as a scarring of lung tissue, bodies
67
that were showing up in lungs, you could see it on x-rays, silica at the same time had similar
98
issues with miners in coal mines, so I think that's pretty much what they would have known at
10
the time. And certainly they knew there was
11
some potential for health risk.
111234
Q. A.
By 1948 Alcoa knew asbestos was a hazardous substance; true? You have to define hazardous substance, that's a
1156
term that's used today, what I would say is what he knew was that it was a material that had
1187
the potential to cause adverse health effects based on a dose response relationship, and based
19
on the nature and type of exposure. Asbestos,
20
the hazard of asbestos really is, in part,
21
determined by what you do, how you handle it,
222234
what controls are in place, what type of asbestos it is, what route of exposure, whether it's inhalation or ingestion, and the duration
25
of that exposure and is the material friable or
000133
encapsulate, so there are lots of variables
243
there. MR. MCNULTY:
nonresponsive portion.
Object to the
5 BY MR. MCNULTY:
67 Q.
In the 1940s Alcoa knew that asbestos-related diseases had latency period of up to 30 years;
8 9
true?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form.
10 A. I think in the 1940s there was certainly, you
11
know, some indication that, yes, there were
111234
health effects and yes, there were latent health effects based on the published literature at the time, that would be correct.
15 Q. And what was the latent health effect?
111786
A.
At the time the latent health effects that they were seeing, I think were this chronic obstructive pulmonary-type disorder which
19
really, as the scar tissue forms over the
20
asbestos fiber it reduces the surface area of
21
the lung, make the lung more rigid, reduces
222234
oxygen exchange, which is really what chronic object object pulmonary disease, in my layman's terms, you can ask the medical experts to
25
explain that better, but it reduces the oxygen
000134
exchange so it gives you emphysema,
23
dyspnea-type, shortness-of-breath-type things, and of course, today, we know all those things
45
can contribute to cardiovascular issues and other potentials.
67
Q.
Does Alcoa acknowledge that asbestos can cause cancer?
8 A. Today Alcoa acknowledges that as can cause
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt cancer, and that really came out -- When did Alcoa acknowledge that asbestos can cause cancer?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. I can't really say when Alcoa acknowledged it. I can tell you that, you know, there was certainly scientific evidence, some of it debated at the time in the late '50s, that said, you know, asbestos had the potential to cause cancer. Again, some of that evidence in the late '50s was heavily vested in what i'll call those industries that handled the material directly in a friable form, textile, weaving. Obviously mining, and certainly, you know, by that time there was evidence that those insulators and others who had worked in the ship building industry during World war II to really
fire retard the navy and it became a pretty commonly-used building material had some additional risk of cancer. If I understand your testimony, is it by the late 1950s Alcoa knew that asbestos had the potential to cause cancer? I believe that would be accurate. Okay. In 1958 Alcoa's industrial hygiene department circulated guidelines for TLVs for work involving asbestos materials; true? To the best of my knowledge that would be correct. Why did Alcoa's industrial hygiene department circulate guidelines for TLVs for work involving asbestos anywhere else 1958? well, I can only assume it was because they had a concern with the potential health effects of the material. And at that time, 1958, what was the concern for the health effects of asbestos? In the late 1950s, early '60s the health concern would have been asbestosis, it would have been potential to cause lung cancer. In 1961 the State of California instructed Alcoa to stop sawing an asbestos-containing board;
true? I don't know the exact date, but certainly there was some -- this dialogue with the California Department of Health in the '60s relative to metal marinite, which does contain about five to 8 percent asbestos, as I recall (end of question was board). I don't recall them instructing us to stop sawing it, I recall them taking some samples. I think I recall them actually, from documents I've reviewed; recommending it be cut outside or cut with local exhaust ventilation, what is your understanding of the, to use your term, dialogue between the State of California and Alcoa regarding sawing of marinite? My understanding comes from a document that I am assuming you have in your possession that references a visit by the California Department
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt of Health, it's actually, I think, the Vernon public health department, and that letter actually outlines the details of what was discussed. Is it Alcoa's understanding that even with exhaust systems in place and operating, dust levels exceeded the t l v by two to sick times?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form.
1 A. The TLV based on what TLV?
2 Q. That is your understanding from reading the
3
documents, that even with exhaust systems in
4
place the t l v was exceeded by two to six times?
5 A. I don't have the good fortune of having the
6
document in front of me to review so you're
7
asking me to make a statement based on pure
8
memory, which I can't do.
9 Q. You don't have any testimony right now to offer
10
regarding TLVs being exceeded by any multiple
11
with exhaust systems in place without that
12
document in front of you; true?
13 A. Repeat the question?
14 Q. You can't offer any testimony about dust levels
15
being exceed by any multiple without that
16
document in front of you right now; true?
17 A. Any multiple at any location in the world? At
18
Vernon?
19 Q. No, we're just talking about the State of
20
California and its dialogue with Alcoa regarding
21
the sawing of marinite board.
22 A. I would not want to offer that testimony without
23
the ability to look at the document and review
24
the document for fear of misrepresenting the
25
answer to you or to the jury.
00038
1 Q. We don't want that at all.
2
Do you have that document handy? if
3
it's not we'll move on?
4 A. I'd have to refer to counsel.
5
MR. MCNULTY: Bill, is that sitting
6
on the top of your stack?
7
MR. FOUNTAIN: I think it is, hold
8
on.
9
MR. MCNULTY: Sure.
10
MR. FOUNTAIN: I have a couple
11
different letters, I'm just hang them all to him
12
(i ndi cati ng).
13
MR. MCNULTY: Okay.
14 BY MR. MCNULTY:
15 Q. And Mr. Shockey, if you can review those
16
documents that Mr. Fountain handed to you and
17
refresh your recollection and just tell me when
18
you're ready to proceed and I'll ask you a
19
couple questions about those and we'll mark
20
those as exhibits. I think those will be 6
21
through whatever.
22
MR. f o u n t a i n : Can we go off the
23
record here?
24
MR. MCNULTY: Yeah, no problem.
25
v i d e o t a p e o p e r a t o r : The time is now
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(There was a brief pause in the proceedings.)
5
VIDEOTAPE OPERATOR: The time is now
67
10:12 a.m., we are back on record. Counsel, you may proceed.
98
BY MR. MCNULTY: Q. Mr. Shockey, we are back on the record after a
10
short break, you have some documents in front of
11
you right now; can you read the title of the
111234
A.
document that you're holding? Okay. They're really a couple documents stapled together so I'll read to you what I'm seeing.
1156
This is a memo from F.H. Regehr, R-e-g-e-h-r, Vernon works, to Dr. Lester Cralley, February
1187
16th, 1962. There is a letter from a C.E. N-e-m-e-t-h i, M.D., health officer, and a Louis
19
S. Hauger, H-a-u-g-e-r, R.S. registered
20
sanitarian, it looks like, director of
21
sanitation from the Department of Public Health,
222234
Vernon, California, February 13th, 1962 to Frank Regehr again, R-e-g-e-h-r. There is another document, Thomas Bonney, February, it looks like
25
8th, 1962, to F.H. Regehr again, R-e-g-e-h-r at
000140
Vernon works.
423
There is a followup letter, it looks like, from F.H. Regehr to Dr. Lester Cralley, January 29th, 1962.
5
There is a January 24th, 1962 letter
67
from the Department of Public Health Vernon, California to Frank Regehr again, at Vernon.
8 9
From the same to individuals that I referenced earlier from the public health
10
department at Vernon.
11
There are attachments that look like
111234
they come out of a reference book, perhaps principles of industrial ventilation book. They talk about -- no, it's the American Conference
1156
of Governmental industrial Hygienists principles of duct design.
1178
And then there's a letter from -it's the same letter before I guess -- no, it's
19
a letter from Cralley on January 24th, 1962,
20
it's to Cralley from F.H. Regehr January 24th,
21
1962 (dashes needed), and it has attachments
222234
that include a copy of Vernon Works sampling for asbestos fiber during marinite sawing at the pattern shop dated May 3rd, 1961 with the
25
results of that sampling being 1 orthopedic
000141
surgeon 8 million particles per cubic foot.
23
There is a second sample of the same date, again in the pattern shop sawing marinite, with a 9.5
45
million particles per cubic foot. And there is one, a third one, that was taken July 19th,
678
1961, again for asbestos fibers in the pattern shop with molten metal marinite sawing with a result of two million particles per cubic foot.
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt And there's a third document from D.C. Harkins at Massena works on December 21st, 1961 to R.H. Allen at Vernon Works. It says whole saw for 20 three-quarter inch ID marinite rings (indicating). And that looks to be just a description of how they actually used the saw that cut the molds for casting, no -MR. McNULTY: Madam Court Reporter, can you mark this as Exhibit No. 6 to this deposition? (Exhibit No. 6 marked for identification.)
Mr. Shockey, Alcoa was aware in the early 1960s that even with exhaust systems in place, dust
levels were being exceed in some activities relating to asbestos inside Alcoa plants; true? Some activities specific at this plants, yes, with one of the three levels was above the 5 million particles per cubic foot, the 9.5. Even with exhaust systems in place; true? with that exhaust system as designed at the time in place, it's true. Okay. In the 1960s -- go ahead, do you have somethi ng to add to that or -- I see you flipping through, that's just the reason I follow up with that question? Right, yeah, one of the documents I gave says as indicated herein before we are not now sawing any marinite in the plant and do not intend to again unless and until we have resolved problem with your assistance, and that's from Vernon to Lester Cralley, so, you know, it wasn't like once they identified the issue that there isn't some followup, so -Okay. And did Alcoa modify the exhaust systems or just stop sawing marinite board altogether? Based on what I'm able to see here in that particular situation, I can't tell. Okay. You don't know whether or not Alcoa
stopped sawing marinite altogether or it modified the exhaust systems; true? At the Vernon Works. Okay. Was the Alcoa Vernon works the only Alcoa facility the 1960s whenever marinite was being sawed? No. Okay. Was marinite being sawed at Alcoa Rockdale in the 1960s? To the best of my recollection based on the documents I've reviewed, yes. The California, State of California has no jurisdiction over the Alcoa Rockdale facility; true?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. To the best of my knowledge the state of California's regulations do not apply to the
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt State of Texas. Does Alcoa follow internal safety guidelines or
20
does it rely exclusively on the safety
21
regulations of the states in which Alcoa
222234
A.
facilities are located? Alcoa is fi duci arily bound to follow the regulations of the state, the country or
25
jurisdiction where the operation resides.
000144
Obviously if we believe that the risk of a
423
situation is greater than what the state, the local state or federal regulations are, we have the right and will choose to set a more
5
restrictive limit. So we would typically follow
67
the most restrictive limit as it applies to either what the regulation requires or we
98
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believe is the right thing to do at the time. Alcoa views state or federal regulations as a
10
minimum type of safety standard; true?
11 A. That would be correct.
111234
Q.
In the 1960s Alcoa's industrial hygiene department recognize that had asbestos was a significant industrial hazard; true?
1156
A.
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. Significant eye eye, you know, you're asking me
1178
to make an assessment of what they knew compared to all the other hazards. What I can tell you
19
is they recognized that it was a health hazard
20
and they tried to respond based on the science
21
at the time, including the government
222234
regulations which, by the way, in the State of Texas were 5 million particles per cubic foot, as well as the State of California.
25 Q. in the 1960s Alcoa's industrial hygiene
000145
department recognized that asbestos was a hazard
423
A.
associated with industry; true? True, to a potential hazard associated with the material in the context of the exposure, the
65
type of work you were doing, the duration of the exposure, and even, in some cases, the
7
redisposition of the individual based on their
8 9
ealth conditions, true. MR. MCNULTY: Object to the
10
nonresponsive portion, everything after the word
11
true.
111234
BY MR. MCNULTY: Q. When did the State of Texas introduce a
threshold for asbestos exposure?
1156
A. Q.
I think it was 1958. Did Alcoa follow the State of Texas's limit for
1178
asbestos exposure at its Alcoa Rockdale faci1ity?
19 A. I've seen evidence of sampling that was done
20
during that time frame that would say yes. I
21
believe there may be samples that would say that
222234
there were some exceedances to that requirement, but I don't have those documents in front of me, ei ther.
25 Q. Do you know anything about the sampling
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt protocols that were followed in the 1950s at Alcoa Rockdale? Not without looking at reference material, field notes to look at the types of filters. Certainly based on my experience later, some of the flow rates of the pumps and so forth were consistent, some of the methods, you know, the comparing against a time weighted average, the TLV, the regulation at the time or the Alcoa standards were consistent but to speak specifically to the sampling protocol, no. Okay. Your experience later, you're referring to almost 30 years later in the 1980s when you worked in Alcoa facilities in Texas; true (that was specifically to) Not quite 30 years later, in the '60s, it would be more like 20 years later. Well, I'm talking about the '50s? xxx Oh, the '60s. That would be 30 years later. Okay. In 1964 Alcoa's industrial hygiene department became aware that light intermittent exposure to asbestos created a higher risk for mesothelioma, stomach, colon and rectal cancers; true?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form.
Based on the work that Selikoff did I think Alcoa became aware that there was the potential for, beyond lung cancer, there was the potential for mesothelioma in end users that had intermittent exposure to asbestos based on, you know, what the job was, duration of the exposure, that sort of thing, so yes, the Selikoff study was out, it was available, and they had access to that. Alcoa had access to the Selikoff study in 1964? 64, 65, I mean, you're asking me a specific date, but in that range. Okay, in 1964 or 1965 Alcoa's industrial hygiene department were aware that asbestos was linked to a higher restriction of cancers other than lung cancer; true F that is linked to) I would say they had -- they certainly should have had some access to that information and in good practice would have been aware of that. In 1965 Alcoa was concerned about the use of asbestos in its pot lining operations; true? True. In the mid 1960s Alcoa identified job duties that may have heavy exposures to asbestos; true?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form.
Heavy eye eye is an unquantifiable term here. In the 1960s, repeat the question again. In the 1960s Alcoa identified job duties that would have heavy exposure to asbestos? Without looking at the sampling data I really couldn't respond to the magnitude of exposure burr certainly in the mid 1960s based on the material I've reviewed Alcoa knew that there
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt were exposures to asbestos in the types of work we were doing xxx check). As a matter of fact, in 1961 Alcoa actually started to work on a substitute for molten metal marinite with John-Mansvi11e , the very subject we talked about in the Vernon incident, so clearly they were aware and concerned that there was some potential health effects that were adverse. Alcoa went as far as identifying different job duties that exposed specific workers or specific types of workers to asbestos; true? That would be correct, because the exposure is based on the work and the specific task being done at the time (that's that would be) Mentioned in 1961 Alcoa, working with Johns-Manvi11e to have a substitute for the molten metal marinite; true?
True. is that the only time that Alcoa has worked with Johns-Manvi11e on a new product? Not to my knowledge. I think -- How many other times has Alcoa worked with Johns-Manville, to Alcoa's knowledge, on a new product? xxx whole) we certainly, you know, have -- it's been a kind of an evolving stream of events as scientific data became available, look to generate substitutes. Super X was, I think a Johns-Manville material that is an example that Alcoa worked with Johns-Manville and expressed a need to find a nonasbestos substitute. You know, and certainly you have to be careful when you do that because sometimes no good deed goes unpunished, you try to develop a substitute to eliminate one hazard and if you're not careful you can inadvertently introduce on the health
hazard and Super x is kind of that where you
walk through with Johns-Manville to try to introduce substitutes. There were other manufacturers, w.R. Grace, I'm try to think of some of them but fiberboard or fireboard, I any, you know, where Alcoa worked with those
manufacturers to find substitutes, Carborundum to find substitutes for asbestos-containing materials in gaskets, ropes, other things. What is super X? Super x is a material as I recall that you would use to grout or fill in cracks. Some of that may have been used in bake furnaces that may have been used where the blocks in the furnaces, or the pots, are grouted, you know, to hold 'em together to seal 'em up. I think -- some of these start to run together over the years but I think that's an accurate description. Did Super X contain asbestos? The original Super x contained asbestos. The substitute, unfortunately, the good example of where you try to work on a substitute, the first substitute actually contained sill can in 1972
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt
18
OSHA had five particular chemicals they were
19
worried about when they came out, one of them
20
being asbestos, another one being silica so
21
here's a classic example where you work to get a
22
substitute and the substitute turns out to also
23 introduce a silica issue, but that would be the
24 Super X in the early days prior to about 1972 or
25 somewhere around there, I think is when Super x
000151
was no longer manufactured with asbestos by
23
Johns-Manvi11e but you probably have more details on that than I do (check that F (.
45
Q.
A.
Why would you say that? well, I'm assuming you have those kind of
67
Q.
documents. Okay. Super X was used at Alcoa Rockdale?
89
AQ..
I believe so. what's the basis for your belief that super X
1101
A.
was used at Alcoa Rockdale? Well, I've reviewed some things with
1123
Mr. Fountain yesterday and to the best of my recollection, some of the information I may have
1154
reviewed included super X in the content of those documents.
1176
Q-
A.
Her was super x used at Alcoa Rockdale?
I couldn't tell you specifically with any degree
1198
of confidence without looking at the actual document.
2201
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Do you know what job trades at Alcoa Rockdale
would have worked super x?
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That would cause know perhaps speculate and I don't want to do that. I certainly know --
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MR. FOUNTAIN: If you don't foe just tell him you don't know.
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yeah. BY MR. MCNULTY:
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Okay. And Mr. Shockey, that work for virtually any question I ask, okay?
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Okay. In 1968 Alcoa responded to union complaints
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about dust levels in the pot rooms; true? in the pot rooms at Rockdale? You're going to
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have to be more specific. Sure, in 1968 did can Alcoa respond to any
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I don't know if it was in 1968 but do I know there were union complaints, or individual
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complaints, who were members of the union at the time, I suspect, relative to asbestos in pot
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rooms, yes. Alcoa was aware in 1968 that there were
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complaints being made about dust levels in the pot rooms; true?
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In the 1960s I'm at least aware of one or two individuals cases where that's true.
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And the individual cases you're aware of, where did they take place?
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt One I'm sure of is the Jack Clark issue at Rockdale. Was your understanding of the Jack Clark issue at Rockdale? That Jack Clark, I believe, I don't remember Jack's actual job classification, he may have been -- it was in the pot rooms, pot lining, and the bake furnaces, lining the bake furnaces, and I recall jack had seen or read an article in the paper, I think the Austin paper, and actually raised the question about the health risks of asbestos. He was concerned, you know, based on what he read that, you know, the workforce there was using asbestos-containing materials like John-Mansville 352, I believe it was, at the time -- My last question was what was Johns-Manvi11e 352? That is an asbestos-containing material, I think it's -- a term that folks would use is asbestos shorts, perhaps, it was generally mixed with {A} {h r a o u p l } national or molasses or some other material to caulk the cracks or joints in the flue linings of bake furnaces and some other applications like that. That product was
discontinued by Johns-Manvi11e to my knowledge sometime around 1972, 73. Do you know when Johns-Manville 352 first began being used at Alcoa Rockdale? I do not. Do you know what job trades would have worked Johns-Manville 352 at Alcoa Rockdale? I don't, I won't be able to give everyone that might have worked with it no,. I'm not asking for everyone; do you know any? Well certainly in the pot rooms the folks that lined the flues in the backing furnaces and others (and and in) there is pretty good evidence those folks worked with Johns-Manville 352. 352, it was able to be handled wet, they had a bag that had a (check check in. (a valve or a connection that you could put a hose to and handle it wet. Whether it was handled that way at Rockdale I couldn't answer you. xxx You don't have any evidence to, that was handled wet at any time at Rockdale; true? I have no knowledge that it was or wasn't at Rockdale. One way or the other? One way or the other.
When did Alcoa first begin doing surveys of asbestos-containing materials in their facilities? In their facilities or at Rockdale? I'm going to start with in their facilities in general, when did it become policy for Alcoa to start doing (xxx check check) then I'm going inform specifically ask you about Rockdale so my
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt question is when did Alcoa begin performing surveys of asbestos-containing materials in their plants?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. I'm not sure I can give you an absolute answer on that but I think there's some testified that even into the '40s we would have been sampling for mineral fibers and other dusts that may have included asbestos-containing materials. Obviously there's some pretty good evidence in the material that I've reviewed that says when you get into the '60s in particular, the level of sampling activity for asbestos-containing materials certainly increased. Okay. The evidence that you referred to in the 1940s, does Alcoa view that as credible evi dence?
Credible evidence as an indicator of what? That we took samples that, we had a certain about industrial health, or credible evidence that we knew the absolute levels of exposure to asbestos in the plant? No, my question is entirely different, it is what year or decade did Alcoa begin doing surveys of asbestos-containing anywhere else its plants. Part of your answer was there's some evidence that they were doing that in the 1940s, so my question to you is the evidence that you're referring to, is that evidence that you rely on, or is it evidence that you discard? I think it's testified that I rely on to say that we had an industrial health program that we were looking at those kind of dusts and whether it was specific to asbestos or not, I can't rely on that. So by the 1940s there was evidence that you can rely upon that Alcoa was conducting surveys of asbestos-containing materials in their plants; true?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. No, that's not what I said, I said I could state that Alcoa was doing sampling and was actively
concerned about the health exposures in its plants, some of which, by the nature of sampling for dusts and other materials, may have included sampling for asbestos-containing materials because it could be a component of nuisance or other mineral dusts, but not specific to asbestos. Specific to asbestos, the '60s. And I think you're answering a different question than the one I'm asking.
Let me ask you this question, when is the first year or decade where Alcoa identified or did a survey of asbestos-containing materials in its plants? I think you and I are on a different connection when you say survey, because to me, a survey can be going to a latent building construction situation, let's say roofing tiles, and sampling
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt the contents of that construction material for the presence of asbestos, that is one type of survey.
A certainly sampling surveys where I attach a pump and a filter with the hopes of characterizing and classifying the personal respirable exposure to that individual for, you know, determination of the potential health
hazards, so which one are you referring to? Okay, when did Al am begin cataloging or making a list of different type of products that contained asbestos that were being used at that -- at their facilities such as a list which would include gaskets, packing, thermal insulation systems, muds, et cetera? I can't give the exact date but I'd say late '60s, predominantly, '70s. Certainly the execution of the OSHA act, you know, really drove a whole different level of science around asbestos, a whole different level of concern, and I think there's pretty good evidence, you say the evidence of the '70s at Vernon and others where, you know, now there's a trigger to really start saying hey, a lot more is known about end users, you know, at this point we're not really worried about things that are latent in building construction materials, w e 're worried about are we using it, are we handling it, are we disturbing it in the day to day manufacture of the product. So by the late '60s, early 1970s am Al began catalog different types of products that contained asbestos that were in use at its
facilities; true? To the best of my recollection that's true. Okay. Why was Alcoa cataloging various products that contained asbestos that were in use in its plants by the late 1960s offer early 1970s? Well, what I can tell you is I think there are several things: First of all, you know, the science that evolved to her they said there was -- there is certainly, at this point, a potential health risk that's not only associated with the disease of asbestosis, but now you've got an increasing body of literature and perhaps scientific data that's start to be pretty well documented that there's a potential for lung cancer. You've also got the increased evidence or communication that there's a potential for, you know, being a key player in mesothelioma, so that's one aspect.
The other aspect is you've got government regulation that's now coming out that's changing the way the land escapes relative to what's permissible exposure and what's not so it goes from five mill particles per cubic foot to five fibers per cc around 1972 and you also have the OSHA act, so you're
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt getting a lot more help from the government in terms of really looking at the health and safety issues in the workplace, you've got NIOSH who's now formed as a scientific body to study health and safety impacts in the workplace. So I think, you know, you've got a good ground swell of probably landmark legislation, scientific literature that's now saying something difficulty, and quite frankly at this point why do you go after those things? If you look at the hierarchy of controls of what health and safety professionals try to do, if we can eliminate the hazard, that is always our first choice. When you can't eliminate it you try to engineer or design it out, okay, or you try to substitute a material which, in the case of, you know, molten metal marinite or some of these other materials we discussed is obviously one of the option. You'll probably talk later about molten metal marinite, but it was one of those that was {TKOEUFLT} at that period of time given some of the other consequences of not having a material that would stand up to the temperatures we have in casting but all that said, you know, it's kind of the perfect scenario where lots of
things coming to the finance you're going to be a responsible company you're going to take some action, which I think we did.
MR. MCNULTY: Object to the nonresponsive portion of the answer. BY MR. MCNULTY: Q. I want to ask you now about 1972 and standards created by OSHA; okay? A . Okay.
MR. FOUNTAIN: Devin, perfect we do that, this is a good time to take a break?
MR. McNULTY: Any time you guys want. MR. FOUNTAIN: I just need to run to the restroom. MR. McNULTY: Let's go off the record. VIDEOTAPE OPERATOR: The time is now 10:44 a.m., we are going off the record. (There was a recess in the proceedings.) VIDEOTAPE OPERATOR: The time is now 10:50 a.m., we are back on the record. Counsel, you may proceed. BY MR. MCNULTY:
Q. Mr. Shockey, we're back on the record after another short break; are you ready to continue?
A. Yes. Q. Okay, when we took a break I was just about to
ask you some questions about OSHA. Does Alcoa regard the creation of OSHA as a good thing for industry? A. Yes.
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt Why? Because, you know, OSHA brought with it, I think, a change in the level of interest around safety across, you know, multiple organizations, not only, you know, our organization, but the contractors we deal with, the suppliers we deal with. I think the general support for good science that comes out of NIOSH, many of the rules and regulations that OSHA adopted were written by, you know, groups like the American National Standards Institute, American Society of Safety Engineers, the American Industrial Hygiene Association, and others, so I think, you know, the xxx practice of the profession, the folks in our organization who have been involved in safety, I think, you know, at the National Safety Council and other organizations, you
know, we've been involved, you know, since the '20s, so certainly OSHA, I think, raised the bar for all of the industry, and us included. In what regard did OSHA raise the bar for Alcoa? You know, that is going to be hard for me to say, you know, I wasn't here in the '70s, but certainly I think there are places or there are potential exposures, both physical hazards as well as, you know, health hazards that we would not know about today if it were not for OSHA and the national institute for occupational safety and health. I think it gave us a forum to focus around and develop systems around that maybe some of our previous efforts, although well intend, may have been disjointed or may have, you know, lacked the full depth that some of the OSHA regulations gave to some of the issues. You know, I think in a lot of cases OSHA helps us keep our supply chain, the folks who supply products to us, you know, on their toes. I think it advanced the types of personal protective equipment that are available to industry, it created new markets and new needs or desires that move the safety and health technology forward. I mean, I look back on my
32-year career in technology relative to safety and enhancements that have become available tools to us are dramatically different than what they were when I start N in and and), and some of that is through regulation, in all honesty, in Alcoa's view, regulation in the form of OSHA was a good thing; true? True. Okay. Were any of Alcoa's previous efforts -- strike that. Were any of Alcoa's efforts with respect to asbestos dust control, prior to the advent of OSHA, disjointed?
MR. f o u n t a i n : Objection, form. You know, I mean, it's hard for me to say because you say any, eye eye and Alcoa is a large company, so -- Let me see if I can put a finer point on it.
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt When you were testifying earlier you were talking about some previous efforts before OSHA being disjointed, so what I'm trying to get a distinction on is were you referring to any efforts with respect to asbestos conducted by Alcoa that were disjointed, or were you referring to something else? It was a general statement, it wasn't specific to asbestos. Okay. So there is no Alcoa policy or procedure with respect to asbestos that you believe was disjointed before the advent of OSHA; true?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. Repeat the question i n sure. (in was I question mark) was there any policy or procedure that Alcoa had with respect to asbestos prior to the advent of OSHA that you believe was disjointed? Not to my knowledge, but, you know, that really is, you know, a hard question to answer because, you know, policy or procedure, eye eye I don't have knowledge of all the procedures at Alcoa that existed prior to OSHA, that's what, you know -- wow. If we just used the '40s or the '50s time frame, that is a 20-year time frame, I really don't have a way of answering that with any good confidence level. Okay. You have access to all of Alcoa's relevant records regarding an answer to that question, true? All of Alcoa's relevant records, absolutely not. Okay. Which records that are relevant do you not have access to? Well, we're talking 1950 to 1990 in a company that has, today, 60,000 employees, and back then somewhere between whatever and 60,000 employees; I just don't have any way of knowing what I don't know. Okay. So you don't know what you don't know with respect to documentation about previous efforts with respect to controlling asbestos at Alcoa facilities before 1972; true? All previous efforts, that would be true. What was the OSHA standard with respect to asbestos fibers in the air in 1972? Two fibers per -- no, '72 would have been five fibers per cc, in 1972. And what does that mean, five fibers per cc? You know what, you've probably got a good industrial hygienist somewhere to give you a something something but it's the count of the number of asbestos fibers for a cubic centimeter of air drawn over an eight-hour time-weighted-average calculation, ask one of your industrial hygiene experts, they'll probably give you a much better explanation but that's a layperson's explanation. You have some experience in taking asbestos
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A. Q.
True. What is the proper way to take an asbestos
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sample? Let's put there in context of time, in the '80s
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and at the time I would have taken an asbestos sample, typically you would identify the task
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that you're going to sample, at the time we would have had an IHIA certified industrial
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capped until we put them on the pumps or the area samples. Flow rate for the pumps, you're
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v i d e o t a p e o p e r a t o r : The time is
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45 (There was a brief pause in the proceedings.)
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11 BY MR. MCNULTY:
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Mr. Shockey are we're back after a short break, when we stopped I was asking about the proper way to take asbestos samples. I'm going to ask
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20 A. it sounds to me like you're referring to an
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If a worker is working with asbestos-containing materials is the not the proper protocol to establish background levels before you sample
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material or has the potential, if you're referring to an asbestos abatement job where we're removing latent material in a building,
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there are regulations that specify you take pre
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When I say abatement, eye eye that is the
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So we're kind of confusing different types of
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sampling scenarios so if you could you could
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help me, you know, by defining which you're are
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one you're referring to, which type of activity,
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I could give you a better answer.
2 Q. Yes, sir. And maybe this will help clear it up,
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in the air sampling that Alcoa performed at
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conducting that air sampling; true?
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MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form.
8 A. I don't know that, I couldn't say one way or
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10 Q. Okay. Do you know who would know the answer to
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12 A. No, I mean, the person who was recorded on the
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sampling activity may know but I don't know even
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15 Q. Okay. If you needed to find the answer to that
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17 A. I wouldn't know who to ask back then.
18 Q. Okay. Well, that was different than now in who
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20 A. I'd ask the person who is taking the sample now.
21 Q. in order to find out whether or not Alcoa took,
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MR. FOUNTAIN: Let me -- late
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objection as to form. You're talking about the
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THE WITNESS: He said the '50s.
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MR. FOUNTAIN: Okay.
7 BY MR. MCNULTY:
8 Q. I'm going to ask you now about molten metal
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marinite and its use at Alcoa, okay?
10 A. Okay. Do I understand Alcoa's position to be
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molten metal marinite was necessary for the
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production of aluminum and it required having
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asbestos in it until a commercially viable
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substitute could be implemented.
15 A. That's correct.
16 Q. And what year was that, that a commercially
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viable substitute was implemented?
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt A commercially viable substitute, there was work that actually went on over a period of years to try to find a commercially viable substitute. What I would -- what I can tell you is that there were certain casting applications, and this is a generalization in some sense, that required molten metal marinite, what we call HDC casting, typically required molten metal marinite, so as casting technology evolved, in addition to the hunt for a substitute, the need for molten metal marinite also disappeared based on technology advances in how we cast, but I can say with some reasonable level of confidence that in the '60s and '70s, that there was some vertical, or what we call vertical directional castings that did, one or two that did have to use molten metal marinite, but other than that it was predominantly defined to billet casting and HDC casting. HDC casting during the course of time when we were looking to replace molten metal marinite, also had technology advances that we made that changed the need for that material, as well, but in terms of when Johns-Manvi11e stopped making molten metal marinite, generally somewhere in the early to mi d '70s, as I recal1.
I do believe that there were one or two applications even into the '80s where we had not found a viable substitute, and at that point in time we had not developed a different casting technology that allowed us to eliminate the use of molten metal marinite in HDC casting. We had developed graphite, or similar type material, to replace it in the billet casting operations. Alcoa was the sole judge of what was commercially viable with respect to substitutes for the molten metal marinite; true? Certainly we had to consider several factors. You know, we've got physical safety factor, molten metal water explosions, which, this material was used to -- is part of the mold assembly, you know, so we had to consider that, but yes, as far as I know we really were, you know, limited by what's commercially available, and so we had to make the decision based on our technology at the time as to whether we, you know, introduced a more significant safety risk or whether we continued to use the material and use it with, you know, more advanced controls that fit the current understanding of the hazards of asbestos at the time, so yeah,, I think that would be my assessment.
MR. MCNULTY: Object to the nonresponsive section, everything before and after the word yes.
MR. FOUNTAIN: what was the year that a commercially viable substitute for molten metal marinite was used at
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt Alcoa Rockdale? I don't know. Okay. Do you know the decade? well, what I can say is that it was, you know, back to the casting technology, I think it's more about when the casting technology eliminated the need for that, but yeah, I can't give you the exact decade either. Okay. In the 1 '50s was it permissible for Alcoa employees to disturb asbestos without any industrial hygiene monitoring? We certainly did not monitor every situation where there was a potential for generating dust, whether it contained -- whether {A} dust was an asbestos-containing material or not and whether we sampled every scenario where dust was generated, I feel confident in saying that's pretty much impractical to do. it was permissible for Alcoa employees to disturb asbestos-containing materials without industrial hygiene monitoring in the 1950s at Alcoa Rockdale; true? It may have been possible had the dust that they were involved with contained asbestos-containing materials.
Okay. My question is a little different, it's not was it possible, it is was it permissible? Were Alcoa employees allowed to disturb asbestos-containing materials at Alcoa Rockdale without any industrial hygiene monitoring in the 1950s? Without any, I would say no. without always having industrial hygiene monitoring? I would say that would be correct. what was the industrial hygiene monitoring that was always present when Alcoa Rockdale employees disturbed asbestos-containing materials in the 1950s?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. You said always; before it was "any," so, you know, there was -- always, no, there was not always industrial hygiene monitoring.
Any industrial hygiene monitoring, we clearly had industrial hygiene activities in the plant that included monitoring, we certainly had medical surveillance and programs like that, but, you know, again, it's all a matter of any and always. I don't think I asked always in that previous question but let me ask it now without any or
without always a eye. Was it permissible for Alcoa employees to disturb asbestos-containing materials without industrial hygiene monitoring at Alcoa Rockdale in the 1950s? Based on what we knew of the potential hazards at the time and based on the activities, I would say that in the -- you asked 1950s, -- Yes.
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1950s, that there would have been situations where employees would have been able to disturb asbestos-containing materials, materials that potentially contained asbestos, without industrial hygiene monitoring. Okay. Any time that asbestos is friable the risk of exposure increases; true? Any time asbestos is friable the risk of exposure increases. In general, certainly, you know, one of the hazards of asbestos is inhalation, so friable asbestos, that which can be crushed by your hand and reduced to a fiber state that can be dispersed in the air under those conditions and people are present has the potential to cause health effects, harm to your health. You said that one of the hazards of asbestos is inhalation; what are the other hazards of asbestos? Certainly from an industrial hygiene standpoint, you know, while it may seem, you know, pretty unlikely in some cases, but in certain situations you could also accidentally ingest asbestos, if you applied cosmetics, if you ate your lunch in an environment where there was friable asbestos, you know, we've all heard of the concerns around schools and, you know, places like that, so, I mean, you know, ingestion is not a very common route of exposure for asbestos but it is a potential route of exposure in addition to inhalation. Is it Alcoa's position that asbestos only becomes friable if it can be crushed in someone's hand? No. Okay. What are the other ways in which asbestos can become friable? well, asbestos can become friable if you strike it with some object, whether it's a piece of mobile equipment, whether you would take a hammer to it and somehow, you know, destroy the structural integrity of it. The example I gave you is kind of what we call the test of, you know, how we define friable to folks so they understand the issue. Certainly you can intentionally make it friable during removal in an asbestos abatement in a school system or in a structure removing it from a piece of superstructure of the steel or roofing material, so there are other ways, many other ways to make something friable. You're destroying the structural integrity of the material. Can jackhammering something that contains asbestos make it friable? Yes. I'm going to ask you a series of questions now about the individual plaintiffs in these cases. I predict that you don't know the answers to any
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt of these questions but I just need to ask them anyway to get them on the record and maybe you are going to surprise me with some different response, but because we are conducting five different depositions right now it's going to seem very repetitive and I'm going to ask probably the same ten questions for five different people totaling 50 questions, so I
don't want you to think that I'm just going over the same point over and over, I just need to get questions on the record and any answers; okay? Okay. Okay. Did you ever witness william Pepper violate any safety rules? To the best of my knowledge, no. Did you ever see any records relating to william Pepper receiving safety training? To the best of my knowledge, no. Did you ever see any records relating to william Pepper being disciplined for safety conduct at Alcoa? To the best of my knowledge, no. Do you have any facts or evidence that William Pepper did not follow Alcoa's safety rules? To the best of my knowledge, no. Did Alcoa view william Pepper as a good worker? I don't know. Did Alcoa view William Pepper as an honest worker? I don't know. Alcoa's practice isn't to allow people to work for them for parts of four decades if they think the employee is dishonest; true?
I don't know. Can you think of a scenario in your head as Alcoa's corporate representative and as a 32 year employee of Alcoa where Alcoa has allowed a dishonest worker to remain employed by them for decades? No. Okay. Did you ever witness Mr. Polk violate any safety rules? Not that I know of. Did you ever see any records -- have you seen any records relating to Mr. Polk receiving any safety training? Not that I can recall. Have you seen any records relating to Mr. Polk being disciplined for violating safety rules at Alcoa? Not that I recall. Do you have any facts or evidence that indicate that Mr. Polk did not follow any of Alcoa's safety rules? Not that I recall. Did Alcoa view Mr. Polk as a good worker? I don't know. Did Alcoa view Mr. Polk as an honest worker?
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt I don't know. Again, it is not Alcoa's practice, that you know of, to allow people to work for four decades if they think the employee is dishonest, or you don't know whether or not that's the case?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection to form. Repeat it in a different manner, I guess. Sure, is it Alcoa's practice to allow people to work for them for parts of four decades if they believe that employees dishonest? Based on my experience during my tenure, no. And that is based on your experience and based on your 32-year tenure, Alcoa would not allow an employee that they believed was dishonest to continue working for them; true? True. Okay, d o any records exist showing that Mr. Britton violated any safety rules? Not that I'm aware of. Do any record exist that Mr. Britton received any safety training? Not that I'm aware of. xxx Do any records exist that reflect Mr. Britton was disciplined for violating safety rules at Alcoa?
Not that I'm aware of. d o you have any facts or any evidence that Mr. Britton did not follow Alcoa's safety rules? Not that I 'm aware of. Did Alcoa view Mr. Britton as a good worker? I don't know. Did Alcoa view Mr. Britton as an honest worker? I don't know. do any records exist which show Mr. Adams violated any of Alcoa's safety rules? Not that I'm aware of. Do any records exist that show Mr. Adams received any safety training? Not that I'm aware of. Do any records exist relating to Mr. Adams being disciplined for any safety conduct at all? Not that I'm aware of. Do you have any facts or any evidence that Mr. Adams did not follow Alcoa's safety rules? Not that I'm aware of. Did Alcoa view Mr. Adams as a good worker? I don't know. Did Alcoa view Mr. Adams as an honest worker? I don't know. Do any records exist that show Mr. Bartlett
violated any of Alcoa's safety rules? Not that I'm aware of. Do any records exist that indicate Mr. Bartlett received any safety training at Alcoa? Not that I'm aware of. Do any records exist relating to Mr. Bartlett being disciplined for violating any safety conduct at Alcoa?
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt Not that I'm aware of. Do you have any facts or any evidence that Mr. Bartlett did not follow Alcoa's safety rules? Not that I'm aware of. Did Alcoa view Mr. Bartlett as a good worker? I don't know. Did Alcoa view Mr. Bartlett as an honest worker? I don't know. Okay.
MR. McNULTY: Thank Mr. Shockey are we're done with that section (that was thank you) Do you know somebody by the name of Howard spiel man? Howard spiel man? Not that I recall. You've never heard of Howard spiel man before?
Not that I'm aware of. Okay. Do you have any idea what Howard spiel man does? No. I'm going to ask you now some general questions about safety principles or functions or good thing to do, okay? Okay. Can we agree that with respect to safety, actions speak louder than words? Generally, yes. What are the exceptions that you can think of? Off the top of my head, none, really. I'm sorry? xxx Off the top of my head right now I can't think of any that would be significant. Can we agree that if a company has written documentation about a hazard to its employees but it doesn't convey that hazard to its employees, that is not a good thing? Certainly at the time that the company becomes aware of a hazard and the magnitude of that hazard and the level of exposure or risk, that should be communicated appropriately to the individuals involved, along with how to prevent
the undesired consequences. And in that answer that you gave it is the company's sole judgment as to the magnitude of the risk; true?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. Certainly not the company's sole judgment as to the magnitude of the risk. The company is represented by all employees, from the managers to the supervisors to the employee who's actually doing the it was:, what the cock seek to do is create a climate, a culture or work environment that promotes safety, but in the end, there are certain activities, some more than others, particularly in the safety area, where the individual involved in the task knows the risk better than anyone else and is there at the time to evaluate the work situation and make
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt the appropriate choices based on what he or she knows and recognizes and understands of the conditions they're facing, and the company's role is to make sure that we give them the best opportunity to evaluate that risk, but certainly, you know, I need the people who are doing the task to own some of that evaluation of the risk, particularly in the safety area, perhaps, you know, more directly than other areas. Let's apply that answer to asbestos in the 1950s and '60s, okay? Okay. Is it Alcoa's belief that plant workers knew more about the hazards of asbestos than Alcoa as a corporation in the 1950s? In the 1950s, given what we know and what they may have known, I would say the average employee had limited knowledge, much like Alcoa did but certainly less, of the risks and hazard of asbestos. in the 1950s plant workers at Alcoa had had less knowledge of the hazards and risks of asbestos than Alcoa did as a corporation; true? True. Okay. Can we agree that if a company has written documentation about employee hazards, and it has procedures to address those hazards but it does not enforce those procedures, that is something that could lead to illness or i njury?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. If a company has a clear understanding and recognition of a hazard and has appropriate knowledge, procedures, has put the appropriate controls in place and the potential for misapplying those controls or not applying those controls xxx to address risk, then that would be a concern. Okay. Why would it be a concern? Because I think it exposes the individual to the opportunity for injury and illness under, you know, certain circumstances, depending on what those circumstances are at the time, if safety policies and procedures are not enforced they are useless; true?
MR. f o u n t a i n : Objection, form. I'm not sure they're useless in the sense that, you know, if you have safety policies and procedures and you communicate them and somebody in an isolated situation, this person at this place at this time, doesn't follow them, they certainly can introduce a margin of risk. Now, how you respond when you see those situations or when those situation become potentially normalized across a work group, really would determine, you know, what the level of risk is.
I can't tell you that there aren't Page 39
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt employees today who deviate from the rules, we certainly have a responsibility to coach, counsel and correct them when they do. Asbestos policies and procedures that relate to safety, if they are not followed they are ineffective; true? They can be ineffective for that moment in time if they're not followed, that's correct. Asbestos is not an acute hazard; right? To the best of my knowledge that's correct. Since asbestos has been recognized as a disease it has always been known as a latent disease; true?
MR. FOUNTAIN: objection, form (he did say asbestos F (. Always, latent, you know, always eye eye is a broad word, but to the best of my knowledge asbestos exposure and the results of asbestos exposure, asbestosis, the lung cancer question, the mesothelioma, are viewed as latent conditions, or latent actors, latent diseases that occur, you know, later in time. Asbestos causes latent diseases; true? True. would it be okay for Alcoa to withhold from its
employees the hazards of asbestos? MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form.
Well, certainly what you knew about the potential hazards at the time based on the scientific literature, data, the recognized acceptable exposure limits, what was acceptable, what wasn't recognized by government agencies and others, would factor into that equation, but certainly if you withheld information, you know, that would somehow have been beneficial in warning or changing the way individuals approached a task, that would be not something we would certainly want to do. Has Alcoa withheld from its employees information regarding the hazards of asbestos? That's a pretty broad statement. Pertinent information that relates to the routes of exposure, the potential health effects, other effect of asbestos? in general, I would say no.
Can I assure you that in some specific instance at some location or some individual over the 1950s to the 1990s, I mean, in all honesty I can't make that statement. Let me see if you can agree this one, Alcoa always told all of its workers all of the
hazards of asbestos at all times? MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form.
I don't know. Always eye eye and eye eye all, eye eye no, I have no way of knowing that.
MR. McNULTY: Okay. Object to the nonresponsive portion, everything after I don't know.
MR. FOUNTAIN: Hey, Devin. Page 40
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt MR. MCNULTY: Yes, sir. MR. FOUNTAIN: The videographer needs to change tapes in a couple minutes, so if you get to a place that you want to stop for a minute I suggest do you so. MR. McNULTY: i'll ask two more questions or -- okay. MCNULTY: Asbestos diseases, because of their latency, most often occur in the sixth and seventh decades of life; true? MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. Asbestos diseases occur later in life is my understandi ng . You don't know whether or not they occur most often in the sixth and seventh decades of life; true?
True. Okay. Alcoa had doctors as employees; true? True. When did Alcoa first have doctors as employees? I don't know. Okay, why did Alcoa have doctors as employees? That would really require know speculate but, you know, in general I would assume to protect the health of the employees and the workforce, whether it be personal health, wellness, or occupational health. Can you think of any other reason why Alcoa would have doctors at employees?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. Well, certainly emergency response, you know, in a large plant, if you have April incident and you can staff that plant with a doctor and several nurses, let's say you have a particular accident that results in injury, the faster and more effective you can get medical help the more likely of recovery, so I would assume that is also one of the reasons you have medical professionals. But you're not sure why Alcoa had doctors as employees; true?
True. MR. MCNULTY: Okay. Why don't we
take a five-minute break and change the tapes and then come back?
MR. FOUNTAIN: All right. VIDEOTAPE OPERATOR: The time is 11:39 a.m., we are going off the record. (There was a brief pause in the proceedings.) VIDEOTAPE OPERATOR: The time is now 11:48 a.m., we are back on the record. Counsel, you may proceed. 1R. MCNULTY: Mr. shock shock, we're back after a short break; are you treated continue? Yes.
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt When we left off I was asking you questions about Alcoa having doctors on its payroll; do you recall that line of questioning? Yes, I do. Did Alcoa expect its doctors to keep current on issues relating to the safety of its employees? More so probably in relation to the health and safety from an illness perspective than just
safety alone. Okay. So Alcoa expected its doctors to keep counter issues related to the health and safety of its employees; true?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. Health and safety, yes. Okay. Overtime occurred at Alcoa on a rebasis; true? I have no knowledge of the overtime activities of the '50s through the '90s that you've described, I mean -- yeah, -- Okay. -- the details of it. And I think you put the cart before the horse because I'm going to ask you now about Alcoa Rockdale but I understand you don't have any knowledge regarding anything pertaining to overtime at Alcoa Rockdale from the 1950s through 1990s; true? Not specific knowledge, that's true. What general details do you know about overtime with respect to Alcoa Rockdale from the '50s through the '90s? That, you know, overtime was obviously something that was in the steelworker contract, it was
something that was available to employees. The frequency, duration and job tasks associated with overtime, you know, I wouldn't have specific details, just general knowledge that it was available and it occurred from time to time. Was overtime a common or uncommon concerns are occurrence at Alcoa Rockdale in the '50s through the '90s? I don't have any specific reference of information that would give me an opinion one way or the other. You don't know; true? True, I don't know. Okay. You don't know if it was common for workers to work overtime at Alcoa Rockdale in the 1950s, '60s or '70s; true? True. Do you know what a shutdown or turnaround is? In a general sense, yes. Which term do you use, shut down or turnaround? Both. Okay. What is a shutdown or turnaround? well, a shutdown could be where you actually take an operation or a portion of an operation completely down, actually, you know, turn the
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equipment off, isolate the unit. It can be for
20 minutes, it could be for several years, it
could be permanently.
Now, with respect to a turnaround, a turnaround
would not be permanent; true?
In general that's correct.
Okay, why would a turnaround be done?
Turn around would be done typically when you
might have a furnace that's -- it's exceed its
extended life relative to refractories or you
might take an opportunity if you're in an
automotive of manufacturing plant, when customer
orders traditionally are seasonal and go down,
you might choose to do a turnaround of a mill or
a piece of production equipment that, you know,
it's a great time to do prevent I have and
predictive maintenance because the customer
demand for the product is down, you can actually
build an inventory and then shut the equipment
down, do preventative maintenance, repairs,
things like that (after first automotive there's
no of)
Was it common to work overtime during turn
'70s? '5 0 s, '60s around at Alcoa Rockdale in the
or
I don't know. Generally speaking is it common for workers to be working overtime during a turnaround? It would be -- that would depend really on the plant, you know, their specific staffing levels, whether they were unionized or not and the bidding process for overtime, things like that, so I really, you know, I can't answer that for a specific location without knowing the location. Generally speaking, is time of the essence in a turnaround? it can be, it depends, like I said, sometimes you do it over a holiday season where folks have inform the vacation, you may not always do a turnaround with your own employees, you may use a specialty contractor depending on what the nature of the work is, so there are times with a turnaround where time is of the essence, but not always. Why, in the circumstances when it would, would time be of the essence in a turnaround? Well, that could be first and foremost probably an unexpected turn around, in other words, unplanned. You've got a piece of equipment that perhaps is very critical to the overall
production flow path and if you have -- you discover issues, maintenance, reliability issues that need to be addressed, or safety, environmental issues that need to be addressed, you may have to take the unit downturn it around rather quickly for either addressing a hazard, meeting a compliance requirement, protecting your customer, you know, addressing a quality
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt issue, a number of issues like that. In a planned turn around is time typically of the essence? Well, good turn around are always planned, whether time is of the essence or not, but yes, certainly a turnaround that is -- where time is of the essence, it would be really appropriate to have a good plan for that turn around. Why? why? Because number one, if you don't have a good plan for a turnaround you can introduce risk there a safety perspective. You can miss critical components in a maintenance or repair opportunity, you can cause the turn around to extend beyond the time frame of which the plant's able to recover, you could be out of compliance for a longer period of time if you're addressing a turnaround for -- addressing compliance issues, so it's a broad range of situations there. If the plant or a unit of the plant is not online, then production is not occurring; true? Not necessarily, it depends on what the function and purpose of the unit that's not online is. if a part of the plant is I don't have line during a turnaround, that part cannot contribute to the bottom line of the plant; true? That part's unavailable to the plant. Whether the contributes to the bottom line or not would depend on what the specific unit was and whether there was a duplicate, whether there was preplanned storage of inventory, a number of factors. well, Alcoa didn't have a business practice of constructing, maintaining just extraneous units in its facilities; does it? You're going to have to define extraneous units for me. Sure. I would assume from a common sense standpoint that every unit in an Alcoa facility has a purpose geared towards producing something; that is assumption totally offbase? That's not a correct sums. Okay. Now, is it a correct assumption to assume that Alcoa's units that are in its facilities serve a purpose which furthers Alcoa's business goals? That would be correct. Okay, if a unit is not furthering Alcoa's business goals by working, that is not contributing to Alcoa's bottom line; true? That, again, would depend on whether you had a duplicate unit. For example, in a refinery generally have two pumps, so if one pump goes down, if you refer to that as a unit, that operation will still run with that one pump down, if a washer or thickener goes down that unit will still run with the other washers or thickeners that are present, so it's all in how
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt you define a unit in a very specific circumstance. How do you define a unit? is a unit, to you, one pump? It can be. Okay. So your definition of a unit includes one pump; true? True. Okay. And why does Alcoa have duplicative uni ts? Because, you know, that particular scenario that I just described, you know, you can lose a digester, which is a production unit, if you lose that pump, you're going to lose flow, you're going to impact flow in the rest of the plant, so in order to change over, maintain or as you used the term, turn over, and repair, maintain or address an issue with one pump, there's a backup pump, and that pump, you can switch from one pump to the other. Alcoa has duplicative units so if there's a problem with one of the units the business operations of the plant do not need to stop; true? That would be a true assessment, yes, in those specific cases. Okay. Do you what the PEL, or TLV for asbestos was in the 1950s in Texas? As I recall it was 5 million particles per cubic foot in the 1950s. Are you able to explain what 5 million particles per cubic foot of asbestos would look like? Not very well, I mean, I think you probably have some industrial hygiene folks are other experts who could give a better explanation to the jury than that. Okay. As you sit here right now you cannot explain to the jury what five million particles per cubic foot of asbestos would look like to the jury; true? Would look like, true. Okay. Are 5 million particles per cubic foot of asbestos generally visible? You know, that, I'm not sure with that level, I mean, I would say I don't know for sure. Okay. Do you know at which level asbestos becomes visible 1 objection, form. Yeah, I don't want to speculate on that, I'll leave that to the experts. Okay. You do not know at which level asbestos becomes visible; true? True. Okay. Do you know how Texas' TLV on or PEL worked in the 1950s, do you know, generally, what it was based on or what it was intended to do? Generally, you know, it was, to my understanding, based on the TLV that was
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MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. I don't know. Okay. Did Alcoa compensate for the PEL limit when overtime work was taking place at Alcoa Rockdale in the 1950s and '60s? I don't know. we touched on this briefly earlier but I'm going to revisit it real quickly, did Alcoa have one PEL as it relates to asbestos for all of its plants nationwide, or did it vary the PELS
depending on various states' requirements? what time frame? In the 1950s and '60s. I don't know. Okay. Did Alcoa in the 1950s and '60s only follow the minimum standards standards set by various states for its asbestos exposure or did Alcoa follow its own internal standards which were more restrictive? In the '50s and '60s, I don't know. Okay. Did Alcoa have its own standards for asbestos exposure in the 1950s and '60s? In the 1950s and '60s, not that I'm aware of. The only standard that you're aware of that Alcoa would have been subject to, internal or external, would have been various states' requirements; true? States, or, in the case of Vernon, that's a local public health department. Okay, with but that's it, true, either states or local health departments? well, the American Conference of Governmental Industrial Hygienists there's evidence that the company was following those. And that's what I'm trying to understand. Did
the company choose one states' or one local health agency's guidelines to follow, or did it make up its own or did it use a hybrid of various states in the 1950s and '60s?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. I don't know if the '50s, obviously there's some evidence in the '60s that they were referring to the TLV, which was the same in the State of
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt Texas in documents I've sign are seen and, to the best of my knowledge, was the same as what the public health department the at Vernon used. As to other states where we did business, I couldn't answer. Do you have any testimony to offer that Alcoa utilized the Texas t l v and applied it to all of its plants nationwide (semi needed in last answer near beginning) Texas TLV, referred to by Texas? No. 5 million particles per cubic foot. 5 million particles per cubic foot, several I've reviewed some documents into the '60s that refer to that, not necessarily as the State of Texas but as the AGIH TLV. '50s, it's unclear, you know, I don't recall anything specific to the '50s.
in the 1960s, Alcoa's policy nationwide then was an exposure limit of 5 million particles per cubic foot?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. I don't know that Alcoa had a formal policy, the documents I've reviewed would suggest that that was the reference in those specific documents (end of prior question was true) Do you have any evidence that the reference included in those documents was mandatory? Not that I recall. Do you have any evidence that the reference included in those documents was discretionary? Not that I recall. I want to move and now talk to but managers and superintendents at Alcoa; okay? Okay. Managers and superintendent at Alcoa Rockdale were paid bonuses on production; true? You're giving me a time frame of 40 years or -Do you know at all, and then we'll narrow it down by year?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection to form. I don't know. You have no testimony to offer the jury that
managers and superintendents at Alcoa Rockdale were paid bonuses on production at any time; true? Not at any time. Okay. Can you deny that Alcoa Rockdale superintendents and managers were paid bonuses for production? No. Now, generally speaking are managers and superintendents at Alcoa facilities paid bonuses on production?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. Again, I can only testify on what I know as the current practices, and there are current practices that include certain targets, both financial, production, diversity, you know, employee engagement, safety, quality, so there's
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt a matrix of performance indicators. How sophisticated that was in the time frame that we're talking about, I don't know. Certainly, you know, when I joined the company I wasn't of a level to actually know those things, don't know those things to this day. Okay, if you learned that managers and superintendents at Alcoa Rockdale were paid bonuses for production in the 1950's, '60s and '70s, would that information surprise you as Alcoa's corporate representative? Not necessarily. And what do you mean by not necessarily eye eye (that was learned that) Well, I think that's certainly a possibility,, so you know, I don't know whether the is or isn't but I wouldn't rule it out as a possibility. Okay. Did Alcoa give safety bonuses to its plant managers in the 1950s, '60s or '70s? I don't know. Is it Alcoa's position in this case that its employees liked working with asbestos?
MR. f o u n t a i n : Objection, form. Yeah, repeat the question again? Sure, is it Alcoa's position in this case that its employees liked working with asbestos?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Same objection. Yeah, I don't know what Alcoa's position is on that, but I would assume no. is it Alcoa's policy in this case that its employees considered asbestos to be, quote, eye eye friendly material eye eye?
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2 A. Again, we're talking a certain time frame under
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11 Q. At trial are you going to testify to the jury
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15 A. No.
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MR. FOUNTAIN: Yeah, that is fine.
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MR. MCNULTY: Okay.
23 BY MR. MCNULTY:
24 Q. You started working for Alcoa in 1980s; true?
25 A. True.
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt It was basically your first job out of college; true? False. Okay. You had another job but then you had kind of changed your mind about than went back to Alcoa which you had an internship at; true? False. Okay. Tell me how you came to Alcoa in 1980? in 1980 I was working for another organization after graduating from college. I had met the general manager of safety for Alcoa on a previous interview that spring. They offered me a position in May of 1980, which I had already taken another job so ethically I didn't feel it was appropriate to switch employers before giving the original employer an opportunity to have me work with them.
Later on I became aware of an opening at Alcoa, applied for it, they called me up for an interview in November of 1980 and I started December 1st, 1980 (that was appropriate to) When did you graduate from college? May 1980. Okay. So you graduated from college May 1980 and then for five months you work at another job
and then you start working at Alcoa; true? True. Okay. You've been at Alcoa ever since; true? True. 32 years? This December 1st, yes. You live in the Pittsburgh area; true? True. Alcoa was founded in Pittsburgh; true? True. Alcoa has facilities in Pittsburgh today; true? True. Alcoa is a family business four; true? Describe family business. Your daughter works at Alcoa or did work at Alcoa; true? True. Does your daughter work at Alcoa right now? Yes. Now, your son, has he graduated college? No, he's still in college. Okay. Has he had any internships at Alcoa? Presently, no. In the past had he had any internships at Alcoa? No.
Are you married? Yes. Has your wife ever worked at Alcoa? No. Does your son have any internships scheduled at Alcoa? Yes. Okay, when will your son working at Alcoa?
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt Probably around May 15th or 16th of this year, summer employment. And that is between his junior and senior year or is he in a master's program? Tell me more about that? It's between his junior and senior year. Okay. And is that internship one that typically leads to full-time employment after graduation? It can, yes. Would your son like to go work for Alcoa after he graduates?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection to form. I don't know. Would you like for your son to go work for Alcoa after he graduates? I'm going to let that decision up to him and he knows that, he's had other offers.
Okay. My question was a little bit different, it wasn't are you going to force your son to work for Alcoa, it's would you like your son to come work for Alcoa after he graduates?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. I guess I don't have an opinion in the sense of one way or the other. I certainly would be happy for him to join the workforce with us but I wouldn't be disappointed if he worked for another reputable company. Okay. So if I can back up five questions, I asked, I said Alcoa is a family business for you; do you agree with that? In the sense, family business -- two of my children are going to potentially -- well one does and one potentially work at Alcoa? From that perspective I think you could say yes. Okay. Do you have any other children? No. So you and both of your children have or will work for Alcoa; true?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection. My daughter and I both work for Alcoa; my son will have a summer job but I don't know where he'll permanently go to work for for whom.
Sure but his summer job he will be working for Alcoa; true? That's correct. So summer of 2012 you, your son and your daughter will all be employed by Alcoa; true? True. Your base salary is over $200,000 a year; true? True. You receive incentive pay in addition to your base salary; true? True. You receive performance pay in addition to incentive pay in addition to your base salary; true? True. what is your base salary? You can do the math, but it's somewhere around
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt $17,200 a month, give or take. Has it increased in the last two years? Yes, -- okay. -- once. The incentive pay that you receive, does it have anything to do with the health of Alcoa reti rees? No. The performance pay that you receive from Alcoa, does that have anything to do with the health of Alcoa retirees? No. You also receive life insurance from Alcoa; true? T rue. You have over 13,000 Alcoa shares as stock awards; true? Over 13,000 shares as stock awards? That's correct. what are stock awards? Stock awards are shares of the company that are issued to you that are given a window of which they mature in the future. When they mature they become yours to own. You can sell them at any point going forward after that date.
They're used as a long term retention incentive, keep me working for the company. Alcoa gives you stock awards as a financial incentive for you to remain employed at Alcoa; true? True. I want to talk with you now about stock options. You have over 30,000 Alcoa shares as stock options; true? True. How much over 30,000 shares do you have as stock options? Today, somewhere in the range, not over, this is the total number, including the 30,000, like 47,000 options. What is a stock option? A stock option a risk-taking incentive in the sense that you have the choice of selecting awards or you have the choice of selecting options. So every year once a year you determine whether you want to take options or awards.
Your options are based on the price of the Alcoa stock at the time when you elect that as your choice. Then they have a maturity party of which they mature just like the others, and that maturity has an expiration date, so unlike the awards it has an expiration date, if the company's stock rises in value and you pass a certain threshold of time that it's mature, you can actually exercise that option, if it doesn't pass a certain threshold it can expire
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt and it's worth less. Two years ago you only had 30,000 Alcoa stock options; true? True. Now you have 47,000 Alcoa stock options; true? True. in the last two years, when given the choice between stock awards and stock options, you have selected stock options; true? I selected stock options one of those years and awards the other year (that was only had 30,000) How many stock awards over 13,000 do you have? I want to say maybe 3 thousand more, so it would be I think total, close to 16 thousand awards. So you have 16 thousand stock awards, which you can sell at any point when they mature; true? True. You have 47,000 stock options, Chuck sell once they hit the strike price; true? True. You are betting with your compensation in the form stock options that Alcoa's stock price will go up, not down; true?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. True (Chuck is which you can) 69 Bill, what was
the basis that objection? MR. FOUNTAIN: Argumentative. MR. MCNULTY:
You have given testimony under oath in Alcoa cases relating to asbestos on two other occasions; true? True. We went over this at the very beginning of your deposition, but you've also given sworn testimony regarding personal protective equipment at an Alcoa facility; true? True. You have given sworn testimony regarding a fatality that occurred at Alcoa Point Comfort; true? True. And you have given testimony relating to your role as the health and safety manager at Alcoa Point Comfort; true? True. I would like a copy of that testimony from each those three categories; where can I get it? I would assume you'd have to talk to counsel. And by counsel, eye eye do you mean Alcoa's general counsel, or do you mean Hawkins Parnell?
Well, I'd start with Hawkins Parnell and they can refer it, I guess, to Alcoa's general counsel if they need to. Do you have a copy of your previous testimony in the personal protective equipment situation, or case? Not that I recall. Do you have a copy of your testimony from the
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt fatality that occurred at Alcoa Point Comfort? A. No, no. Q. do you have a copy of your testimony relating to your role as the health and safety manager at Alcoa Point Comfort? A. No. Q. Have you reviewed any of that prior testimony in preparation for your testimony today any time in the last four months? A. Those three documents that you just described? Q. Yes, sir. A. No. Q. Do you know if Hawkins Parnell as a copy of those documents? A. No. Q. if you wanted to obtain a copy of those transcripts who would you ask?
A. I'd probably go to our legal counsel either through Mr. Fontaine [sic] or somebody in the Alcoa legal system. MR. MCNULTY: Mr. shockey, I think now is a good time for y'all to eat lunch if you're running up against it; is that accurate, Bill? MR. FOUNTAIN: That would be fine. MR. MCNULTY: All right. Take an hour for lunch? MR. FOUNTAIN: Yeah. MR. MCNULTY: All right. v i d e o t a p e OPERATOR: The time is now 12:22 p.m. We are going off the record.
(whereupon, at 12:22 p.m. a luncheon recess was taken, the proceedings to resume at 1:25 p.m.)
A-F-T-E-R-N-O-O-N S-E-S-S-I-O-N VIDEOTAPE OPERATOR: The time is now
1:25 p.m., we are back on the record. Counsel, you may proceed. BY MR. MCNULTY: Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Shockey.
A. Good afternoon. Q. Did you have a good lunch? A. Yes, I did. You? Q. what did you eat? A. salad. Q. I had breakfast for lunch.
when we left right before lunch I was asking you about copies of transcripts from testimony; do you recall that testimony? A. In general, yes. Q. Right before that I was asking you questions about your tenure at Alcoa and various family members that have worked for Alcoa? A. That's correct. Q. Does your wife work outside the house? A. Currently, no. She plays organ for church, some things like that, but not full time employment.
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt Okay. Do you have any brothers or sisters? Yes. Do any of your brothers or sisters work for Alcoa? No. Have any of your brothers or sisters ever worked for Alcoa? No. Did your father, mother or grandfather work for Alcoa? No. Does anyone in your wife's family work for Alcoa? No. Do you have any aunts and uncles that work for Alcoa? No. Okay, what is the current Alcoa stock price, generally? Yesterday at the end of the day think it was like $9.95. Of the 47,000 options you have what are the strike prices of those options? when you use the term "strike price," the price at which those options were given to me? The price at which those options become of value to you. And I'm going to give you a general answer as best I know it, I think there are still some limitations on when you can exercise, a minimum dollar value, it may be two dollars or two dollars and fist cents where the stock price has to go above that level versus the original issue price, at least at one point in time. I haven't looked to exercise 'em recently. So, you know, there will be a level at which those shares would have value depending on the price they were issued to me and if there's a minimum price to execute, and I don't recall the specific price at this point but historically it's been I think two, 2.50 cents it has to move before you can execute. is it fair to say that all 47,000 of your Alcoa stock option shares are in the money? No. Okay. What percentage of the 47,000 Alcoa shares are not in the money yet? As of yesterday the only ones that would be in the money would be, potentially be in the money depending on what the minimum increase value would be to exercise, would be those that were issued at 8.33, 15,400 options. Okay. So roughly a third of your options are not in the money right now; true? No, roughly a fourth of the options could potentially be in the money; they were issued at 8.33. The rest of the operations not in the money,
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2 A. They're not in the money and they're not even
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4 Q. Okay. Bill, are you there?
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MR. FOUNTAIN: I am.
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MR. MCNULTY: Okay, good, I didn't
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10 BY MR. MCNULTY:
11 Q. I'm going to talk with you now about cigarettes
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and Alcoa facilities, okay?
13 A. okay.
14 Q. Alcoa had cigarette machines in its break rooms
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at Alcoa Rockdale; true?
16 A. I don't know.
17 Q. You cannot deny that Alcoa had cigarette
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20 A. True.
21 Q. Okay. Did Alcoa have cigarette machines at
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23 A. t o the best of my recollection and the time
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4 A. Not that I -- I don't recall one way or the
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6 Q. Okay. Did Alcoa gift cigarettes away to its
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MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form.
9 A. I really don't know the details of the cigarette
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11 Q. Okay. You don't know one way or the other
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15 A. True.
16 Q. Alcoa was aware that its employees were smoke;
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MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form.
19 A. During the time that I was at Alcoa?
20 Q. Yes.
21 A. Yes, some of them, some employees.
22 Q. Was Alcoa aware that its employees were smoking
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25 A. I would assume that the general population
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8 A. I would tend to say yes.
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt Okay, is it a concern to you as a health and safety person that asbestos-exposed workers would also be smokers? Based on what I know today and my ten your, absolutely. Okay, why would it be a concern to you? Because the combination of smoking and exposure to asbestos above a level that may be predetermined to be harmful could have a synergistic effect. How did you learn about a synergistic effect between smoking and asbestos exposure? Specifically when? I don't know, I can't give you a specific year, but I can generally say, you know, mid to late '70s, early '80s, somewhere in my college career time frame first starting with Alcoa.
You first learned there was a synergistic effect between cigarette smoking and asbestos exposure when you were in college; true? True (prior question was how) When did Alcoa learn, if ever, of a synergistic effect between asbestos exposure and smoking? Well, certainly there was scientific information available, I would say in the '60s time frame, that would have indicated that. Early '60s, mid '60s or late '60s? I'm not sure, I mean, the safest, probably say sometime in the '60s. Sometime in the '60s Alcoa learned that there was a synergistic effect between asbestos exposure and smoking; true? I think that would be a reasonable conclusion, yes. That is Alcoa's conclusion, or that is your conclusion? That's my conclusion of what I believe Alcoa knew at the time. Okay, what is a synergistic effect? A synergistic effect is when the sum effect of two individual scenarios or factors is more significant than the single effect of any one of
the two entities. Can you hear me? I missed the very end of that answer, but if it's on the record it's okay.
Let me see, am I coming through clearly right now? Yes. Is a synergistic effect with respect to smoking and asbestos would you generally agree that asbestos exposure is bad, smoking is bad, but when you combine smoking and asbestos exposure it creates something super-bad?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. Yeah, I think what I would generally agrees that if you have exposure to asbestos above a level that's been identified as being harmful to health and you also smoke, the combination of those two factors has the potential to make the
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24 Q. Do you know what a medical monitoring program
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21 Q. Okay. Does Alcoa conduct any medical monitoring
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23 A. Yes, I believe they do.
24 Q. What medical monitoring program does Alcoa have
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt The one that I'm familiar with probably the most recently would be coal tar pitch volatiles. Would a medical monitoring program be appropriate for something like a latent disease such as those that come from asbestos exposure? Medical monitoring for a latent disease (that's right) such as those associated with at as exposure? Yes, sir. Certainly medical monitoring throughout the working career, if somebody had a potential for asbestos related exposure, chest x-rays, things like that would be appropriate. I'd defer to the medical experts that you probably have that would tell you about how effective or if what i'll call predictive indicators exist for detecting or being able to even respond to asbestos exposure. Certainly there are predictive indicators in the case of coal tar pitch volatiles that if you monitor for them, give an opportunity to, you know, remove somebody from an exposure, to take some medical course of action, and don't ask me what it is, I'm not a medical expert by any means.
You know, there's certainly
predictive indicators when you monitor for noise called threshold shifts that are predictive indicators of cumulative hearing loss. You know, blood led levels are another medical monitoring protocol that's used a lot in the construction industry, where you can remove somebody from the exposure to led, so those have pre particular difficult indicators.
To my knowledge exposure to asbestos in terms of monitoring, like urinalysis or blood tests or so forth, I'm not aware of any but again, I'm not a medical expert and I defer that to the experts. As Alcoa's corporate representative in this case you are not aware of any medical monitoring program conducted by Alcoa for its retirees; that were exposed to asbestos; true? That would be true. is it Alcoa's position that it does not have a medical monitoring program for its retirees that were exposed to asbestos because the predictive indicators would be useless with respect to any type of cure for asbestos disease?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. Yeah, you're asking me somewhat of a technical
question intermingled with a question of why they don't have a -- how the choice was made or what was made relative to medical monitoring for asbestos. I wasn't part of that decision, I don't have any knowledge of the context of that decision, and, you know, that's about the best I can tell you. Okay. As Alcoa's corporate representative in
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt this case you have no knowledge as to why Alcoa does not have a medical monitoring program for its retired employees who are exposed to asbestos; true?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form, in the sense I have no knowledge of the context of how those decisions were made. I certainly have some views based on what I've heard or have learned over the years as to whether they're predictive indicators or not but again, I defer to the medical professionals. Okay. And let me just see if I can put a fine point that question, as Alcoa's corporate representative here today you do not have any testimony as to why Alcoa does not have a medical monitoring program for its former employees who were exposed to as is at Alcoa facilities; true? True. if you were the CEO of Alcoa and you had unlimited discretion to do whatever you wanted with respect to health and safety, would Jeff Shockey institute a medical monitoring program for former Alcoa employees who were exposed to asbestos?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. First of all, I'd have to have a lot more information from the medical community what value it would have and what we would do with that information, but if it proved to be of value, if it proved to have an effect that would better protect the individuals, then I would say yes. as you sit here right now, if you were made CEO and had the discretion and ability to do that, you would not institute a medical monitoring program for former Alcoa employees who were exposed to asbestos because do you not have the medical bases right now to justify that decision; true? That would be true. okay. I want to talk with you now a little about warnings, okay? Okay. Okay, why is it important to warn about asbestos exposure? Well, it's important to warn because in order for the company, the supervision, the individual working with the materials, the health and safety professionals that have to try to oversee and facilitate occupational health and safety programs, it's important to have warnings when a material has the potential to cause harm. And why is it particularly, if at all, important to warn about a hazard as such asbestos?
MR. FOUNTAIN: objection, form, well, certainly I don't think the potential for asbestos to cause harm is in debate, so to speak, and therefore, you know, one of the ways
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt that you address risk is you first have to recognize it, and that's whether you're a company buying a product from a manufacturer, whether you're a health and safety professional trying to provide information and guidance to an organization, whether you're a supervisor or worker trying to assess the best way to handling something or to conduct your work activities. So you have to recognize that a hazard exists, and to the extent tne hazard exists a warning provides you with an opportunity to be aware of that potential.
In addition, once you're aware of the potential it gives you an opportunity to assess the different levels of exposure that may or may not be acceptable based on the science at the time, it gives you an opportunity to try to apply best available technology to eliminate, control or manage the risk, and it gives you the opportunity to adjust, adapt work practice, work conditions, to minimize the risk. Have you ever heard of something called ALARA, a -l -a -r -a , in the context of industrial safety? Yes. What is that, in the context of industrial safety? Most of my work in the ALARA area would probably be related to time spent as a radiation safety officer, but it's As Low As Reasonably Achievable, A-L-A-R-A. And was A-L-A-R-A Alcoa's position with respect to asbestos exposure in its plants in the 1950s and '60s?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. Yeah, I mean, in the 1950s and '60s the context of what Alcoa would have known about asbestos exposure would be different than what we know today, and certainly they would have based that decision, in part, on the science and the available information relative to what values or exposure levels were expected to cause adverse health effects. I think in the case of the '50s and '60s we're really talking about five million particles per cubic foot as the threshold limit value at that time. was a l a r a or was 5 million particles per cubic foot of asbestos the standard that Alcoa followed in the 1950's and '60s with respect to asbestos? I don't know. Okay. Occupational illnesses are generally preventable; true? True. And asbestosis is generally preventable; true? I would say yes, as long as you know the potential for the exposure exists, you know the exposure scenario, the exposure rates, and again, you know, sometimes that science of
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt what's acceptable at the time changes, but I would say yes, it's preventable.
MR. MCNULTY: Object to the nonresponsive portion, everything before or after yes, it's preventable. BY MR. MCNULTY: Q. Do you know someone by the name of Tom Bonney? A. Yes, I do, I did. Q. Who is Tom Bonney? A. Tom, as I --
MR. MCNULTY: Mr. Shockey, I'm going to back up just so we have that exchange clear, okay. A . Okay. Q. Who was Tom Bonney? A. Tom Bonney was, to the best of my recollection, the manager or the chief industrial hygienist at Alcoa when I joined in 1980. xxx Check last several) Q. Did Tom Bonney have responsibility for the safety of Alcoa employees? A. Again, you're using the term safety as I'm assuming the broader focus of safety and health, Tom's -- they had a, check check was safety. Q. who was that?
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At the time, Jim Archibald. would Alcoa employees look to Tom Bonney to protect their health?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. Alcoa employees, in a general sense, may not have even known Tom Bonney but I think part of Tom Bonney's role was certainly to look at the occupational health issues in a manner that would provide appropriate protection for the employees and the exposures to which they may be relevant. was Tom Bonney an advocate for employee safety and good health within Alcoa? To the best of my knowledge, yes. xxx Do you have new reason to believe that Tom Bonney was not an advocate for the good safety and health of Alcoa employees? No. Did Alcoa employees rely on Tom Bonney to give them information relating to health and safety?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. Not exclusively, but yes, in part, I'm sure. Okay. And what part, in what part would Alcoa employees rely on Tom Bonney to give them information regarding their health and safety?
well, Tom certainly was an industrial hygiene leader so he was involved in dialogue and discussions relative to potential health hazard, potential exposures that were consistent with the types of operations we had. He certainly was not the only person that had dialogue during his tenure, and particularly, you said health and safety, I believe; xxx Tom would probably
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt have had limited dialogue in the safety area, he had not he is profession or practice, that would have been Jim Archibald and his staff. How would Tom Bonney convey information to employees regarding occupational health? You know, I'm going to speak in general terms based on experience, observation and some of the information that I've reviewed, but certainly, you know, and again, some of this spans, you know, a period of time that's broader than just the 1980s to the time frame I was here, but, you know, there's written communications, there's evidence of industrial hygiene newsletter, interaction between xxx only the plant-level industrial hygiene committees. Certainly there were other individuals in the medical community in Alcoa, other industrial hygienists that were engaged in that communication process.
Direct communication between Tom and individual employees was probably limited by position and distance, but certainly cascaded, what I call cascaded communication from his role to plant-level industrial hygienists or, in some cases, environmental control professionals, health and safety managers, joint safety committees, perhaps even international union representatives, so forth. Is that something you are speculating on, this cascade of information, or is there a fact witness or document that you're relying on when you testify that way? Well, two ways. Number one, I worked during part of the time that Tom Bonney was part of the organization, so I personally experienced and observed it, there are physical documents that I've reviewed in preparation for this deposition that I think would demonstrate that as fact.
The extent, or detail specific to an individual location, you know, I can't really attest to that on every-case-by-case basis or every individual employee, obviously. Did Tom Bonney provide all relevant information
$
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5 A. Again, I'm going to reference the terms all and
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eye eye relevant eye eye as terms that I really
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11 BY MR. MCNULTY:
12 Q. Does Alcoa have any criticisms of the way Tom
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15 A. in a general sense I think Tom tried convey the
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt a better job of communicating? I think, you know, that's always a possibility. There are things that we know or don't know at certain times and -- you know, so I guess that is open for interpretation. I'm not sure I'm going to sit here and judge Tom, you know, and his style of communications 30 years later compared with what the expectations today would be. How could Tom Bonney have done a better job at communicating hazards of asbestos to Alcoa employees?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. Yeah, I guess I don't have specifics without looking at a specific document or specific example, but I think the standards of how we communicate to employees, much like our understanding of the risks of different things, evolves over time. Certainly it has changed from the time period of the '50s to what we know today. For example, in 1986 we had the hazard communication standard, which I think has enhanced the communication between manufacturers and employers and employers and their employees, so forth (that's employers and? . (. And I don't mean to pick, I just -- I'm just not clear in my head if Alcoa has a criticism of the way Tom Bonney conveyed hazards of asbestos to Alcoa employees, and is your answer no, they do not have a criticism but, in hindsight, maybe they could have done some things differently with what we know today? I think that would be a good statement, yes, that no specific criticism but in hindsight, there were probably some potential opportunities to do better than what we, by today's standards, than what we might are done then. Okay. And what are those opportunities?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. I guess I'd need a specific example to talk about, if you can give me a specific. So, and I'm just trying to understand, when you said that in hindsight and today we know that there are some opportunities he could have conveyed, do you have any specific examples in your head of opportunities that Tom Bonney may have missed in conveying hazards of asbestos to Alcoa employees? Not specific in my head. I think I've reviewed some documents that, you know, my impression would have been I might have worded that differently, I might have taken somewhat of a different approach, but again, that's based on what I know today about, A, how we communicate, perhaps better. I guarantee you we don't communicate perfect evenly in today's world and, you know, how manufacturers communicate with us, so I guess I can't give you a specific example but I know that in looking at some of the
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt examples using the standards of today, I think there would have been opportunities to possibly do a better job at times. Did Alcoa perform a cost/benefit analysis regarding informing its workers of the hazards of asbestos?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. To my knowledge -- I don't know, but to my knowledge, no, so I don't know. Would it surprise you if Alcoa performed a cost/benefit analysis with regard to informing its workers of the hazards of asbestos?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. With regard to informing workers about the hazards of asbestos, that would surprise me on a cost/benefit analysis of informing. I mean, there are certainly times when you do a cost/benefit analysis for other reasons. Have you seen any cost/benefit analysis as Alcoa's corporate representative or in your role as an Alcoa employee with respect to Alcoa performing a cost/benefit analysis with respect to informing its workers regarding the hazards of asbestos? Informing its workers, certainly, you know, in
the mid '80s under the hazard communication standard there was a period where we had to look at do we try to label and identify pipelines, vessels and other things for asbestos, or too we take an approach of assuming that something that's uncharacteristic or unknown, assuming it is asbestos and treating it as such until we sample or prove otherwise, so I think you could stretch that into the kind of warning or communication that you're talking about.
Certainly we looked at the opportunity, I think, to assess is it even practical and what's the potential cost of doing what I'll call complete bulk sample analysis of all latent asbestos-containing materials that might be encapsulate or part of piping insulation, boilers, structural steel fire retardants, I think there have been some cost/benefit assessments, that sort of thing, not necessarily active, you know, active, somebody working with the material, but in the essence of do I leave it in place and manage it accordingly or do I go to the expense of stripping it and what's the cost, and also what's the risk of exposure which we know to the
EPA has a position on that that you can manage it in place. Have you seen Alcoa documentation discussing the potential legal ramifications of informing its workers regarding asbestos exposure?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. Not that I can specifically recall. I mean, I've looked at a lot of documents and, you know,
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt legal ram fix? I mean, that's a pretty broad statement. Are you talking legal ramifications like, you know, we're going to get more, it's going to create additional concern that may or may not be warranted? I mean, there may be some documents that include dialogue of that, I don't specifically recall. You have seen documents that include dialogue regarding whether or not Alcoa management should inform Alcoa employees of the hazards of asbestos; true?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. I've seen some documents that talk about communication with employees and what to communicate, or what was communicated to individual employees, like in the Jack Clark case, you know, some of that, so I have seen
some of those documents. I don't recall specifically recall the details, quite frankly. Have you seen documents like the ones we're talking about right now that come to the conclusion that Alcoa should not warn its employees regarding the hazards of asbestos? Not that I recall. As Alcoa's corporate representative you have never seen any documents that come to the conclusion that Alcoa management should not warn Alcoa employees about the dangers or hazards of asbestos; true? You said never, and I don't know. I said I don't recall. Okay. And can you -- and I don't recall eye ice giving yourself a lot of wiggle room so that's why I want to find out what you're going to testify about at trial.
So are you going to testify at trial that Alcoa has documentation that comes to the conclusion that Alcoa management should not warn its workers about the hazards of asbestos?
MR. f o u n t a i n : Objection, form. Repeat the question again? okay. Are you going to testify at trial that no
document exists that Alcoa management came to the conclusion that it should not warn its workers about various health hazards related to asbestos?
MR. f o u n t a i n : i'll object to form, it's still unclear to me. Yeah, I'm still struggling with -- repeat the question? Sure, sure. I'm trying to understand what universe of documents you're going to rely on and I'm curious, is it your testimony as Alcoa's corporate representative that no document exists which comes to the conclusion that Alcoa management should not warn its employees regarding various health hazards of asbestos? I don't know. Okay. You have not seen a document like that;
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A document like what? Like the one I just described, a document that comes -- strike that. Jeff Shockey has never seen a document which comes to the conclusion from Alcoa management that it should not warn Alcoa employees about the hazards of various asbestos diseases; true?
To the best that I can recall, yes. Okay. Does Alcoa keep personnel files of its employees? Generally, yes. When did Alcoa begin keeping personnel files of its employees? I don't know. if an employee violated a safety rule, is that something that would be found in that employee's personnel file? It might be. In what situations would it not be included in an employee's personnel file? in situations where the record of the discipline may have been handled locally by the supervisor, written warning, something like that, it may not have made to it file. I mean, it's a paper exchange that goes from the field to the personnel organization. Files get lost, records, over time, get destroyed accidentally or as part of a record retention policy. We've had weather conditions that have destroyed documents in storms or roof leaks so, I mean, there are a lot of scenarios where you could lose a record, of any activity, not just
di sci pii ne? Okay, if I understand from your testimony, there are many circumstances where something might not be included in an employee's personnel file; true? True. Does Alcoa consider violations of its internal asbestos exposure policies to be be serious safety violations? That would be depend on the nature of the policy or the rule or procedure that was violated, if an Alcoa employee violated Alcoa's standards with respect to exposure to asbestos, is that something that would typically go into an Alcoa employee file for that individual? Maybe. And in what circumstances would it and in what circumstances would it not? That's certainly an individual supervisor decision in most cases but for example, if somebody barricaded an area and there was a rule to barricade the area 50 feet around the activity and they barricade it 25 feet, half the distance, they might get corrected by the supervisor, by another member of the crew, by
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt the safety department, and I doubt very much if that would end up in their personnel file or result in disciplinary action, you know, if it was observed it would be addressed, corrected and probably would be the extent of it. I I want to ask you now about Alcoa informing its employees about the hazards of asbestos, and I'm going to ask you that same question with three different time periods, 1970, 1973 and 1980; okay? Okay. Okay. Tell the jury everything Alcoa employees should have been told about the hazards of asbestos by 1970?
MR. FOUNTAIN: objection, form. I don't think I can tell them everything they should have known. I can offer an opinion of some things they should have known. Okay. What is your opinion of what they should have been told by 1970? By 1970 I think it would have been important to know that asbestos was being used in those applications where we knew it was potentially used, I'm sure we didn't know all the applications, perhaps, because manufacturers didn't have the extent of material safety data sheet requirements that they do today.
They should have known some things about the latency of the health effects, they certainly should have known some things about how to protect themselves given the sophistication or level of science and understanding at the time, and certainly some information about the types of exposure of concern, and to the extent that we, you know, took sampling results and quantified that exposure against exposure limits that were in place at the time, that would also, by today's standard, certainly somebody something that we would expect them to communicate, as well (that's them to) You just answered, and I believe that was Jeff Shockey's opinion as to what Alcoa employees should have been told by 1970; now I want to know what Alcoa told its employees about the dangers of Arizona in 1970?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. Yeah, I don't know that I can give you that kind of specific detail. I think there is certainly some documents that would reference the kinds of things, but specifically what they were told? I don't think I can answer that. Okay. Now I want to ask you about 1973; okay? Okay. What did Alcoa tell its employees about the dangers of asbestos exposure in 1973?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. Again, I can't speak specifically to what they
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt told their employees about asbestos exposure in 1973. Certainly by 1973 OSHA was in place. Certainly the science around asbestos, from an occupational health hazard standpoint, had progressed beyond a nuisance dust, and a dust that causes asbestos [sic] to a dust that potentially, if it contained asbestos-related materials and you had exposure above a certain threshold limit, would have been something that had the potential to cause lung cancer.
And even at that point there was, you know, information that was available that asbestos exposure could cause mesothelioma, so, you know, certainly, again, all the things I mentioned before relative to the potential hazards, given what we knew at the time, would have been useful information for folks at all
levels where there was potential for asbestos exposure to be aware of. Certainly some connection relative to ways to handle the asbestos and some of the methods that you could use, some of those would have been outlined in the OSHA standards at the time.
There were five chemicals that OSHA identified in 1972, as I recall, as the higher priority chemicals, silica, carbon monoxide, asbestos, so there was going to be some additional literature, and I can't recall off the top of my head all the details of that, but there would have been some additional direction based on the science at the time that they should have, you know, had had at their di sposal. Okay. And my understanding of your testimony as Alcoa's corporate representative is these are things that should have or could have been told to their employees; are you testifying that it did happen and they did tell their employees all the stuff you just mentioned? I certainly have seen evidence where they did communicate that, portions of that. All of that? I can't say for sure, but certainly there
was an effort to communicate many of the right things. Whether they communicated all of the right things to all of the people, I really can't give you an honest answer on that. Okay. You don't know as Alcoa's corporate representative if Alcoa conveyed all of the right things relating to the hazards of asbestos to its employees by 1973; true? True. Okay. Now I want to ask you the same question but for 1980. what did Alcoa tell its employees regarding the dangers of asbestos exposure by 1980?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. By 1980, I mean, you know, that's a time frame when I was at Alcoa. There certainly were communications involving the potential health
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shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt hazards associated with asbestos. Again, the exposure levels of concern, the routes of exposure, the types of jobs or tasks, the materials that could cause, or had the potential to contain asbestos-containing material. There was training on handling and working in the vicinity or with asbestos-containing material. I can certainly point to documents that I'm aware of relative to disposable clothing, taping disposable clothing to prevent fibers or potential asbestos-containing material from getting on your regular work clothes that mostly, in those days, Tyvek suits were used when asbestos material or suspected asbestos material was handled.
Obviously respiratory protection, which also, in reality, certainly was evidence of being in play in the '70s, as well. The hazard communication standard obviously came in in 1986, '85 time frame, which really raised the bar around what manufacturers communicated to us, which certainly enabled us to do, I think, a better job of scrutinizing material that came in through a purchasing scenario. Knowing what the constituents included, being able to challenge those from time to time. Certainly lots of evidence of, you know, tools, needle guns with vacuum systems being used, replacement materials being implemented, you know, the whole gamut of wetting agents, enclosed, encapsulated removal zones with six mil plastic, a lot of those sorts of things. You know, I can't cover 'em all but that's the kind of stuff that we're talking about. what is the earliest date Alcoa should have told its workers that asbestos causes cancer? I really can't tell you the earliest date but I can, I think say with some confidence, that there were indications that asbestos caused cancer, at least based on some scientific studies, they may have been disputed some at the time, but I feel, you know, certainly by the mid '60s there was a time frame that -- where asbestos was recognized as a lung carcinogen and then at some point thereafter, I may be a little foggy on the dates, after lung cancer came mesotheli oma. Do I understand your testimony to be the earliest date that Alcoa should have told its workers that asbestos causes cancer would have been the mid 1960s?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. Mid '60s to receive the, in that time frame. Sometime between 1965 and 1970 Alcoa should have told its workers that asbestos causes cancer; true? In hindsight, yeah, I guess. Eye eye should have, I don't know the full debate of scientific
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9 BY MR. MCNULTY:
10 Q. Did Alcoa tell its employees sometime between
11
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MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form.
13 A. I can't really answer that without looking at
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16 Q. As you sit here right now you don't know; true?
17 A. True.
18 Q. What is the last year that Alcoa had its
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employees jackhammering asbestos-containing
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insulation at Alcoa Rockdale?
21 A. I don't know.
22 Q. Okay. Was marinite still in use in the mid
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1990s at Alcoa facilities?
24 A. Mid 1990s?
25 Q. Yes, sir.
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MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form.
5 A. what I know, at least based on what I know, is
6
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7
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8
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9
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10
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technology that would allow us to operate that
14
facility without molten metal marinite until
15
kind of the mid '80s, maybe, to 1990, that's my
16
best estimate. One facility that I'm aware of.
17 Q. What facility is that?
18 A. Warwick Indiana.
19 Q. Was marinite still in use in the 1990s at Alcoa
20
Rockdale?
21 A. To the best of my understanding it was not.
22 Q. xxx what is marinite used for at Rockdale?
23 A. I don't know.
24 Q. in 1998 asbestos was still being used in some
25
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt Yes, sir. Yes. Now, do you know somebody by the name of Tommy 1 ow? Yes, I know Tommy. Do you have any issues with Tommy lows {AE} credibility? No. Tommy low is an honest guy; true? Based on my experience with Tommy, yes. Have you ever known Tommy not to be an honest guy? Specific example, no. obviously Tommy's a union president, so in some cases he may have been directed to represent things certain ways, but from my experience in my dealings with Tommy, no.
Is that all Tommy lows {AE} function at Alcoa has been? No, Tommy was an I & E, instrument and electrical technician, he also was a union vice president, then became union president, sometime after that in later years he became a unit supervi sor. Okay. And is that it? As far as I know, yes. You don't know how Tommy Lee ended his career at Alcoa; do you? Tommy Lee or Tommy low. Tommy low, sorry. No, I don't. The last you know of Tommy low he was still working for the union; true? No. Okay. He was still active in the union working for Alcoa; true? No, he became a unit supervisor. And what year was that? I don't know the specific year. Okay. You don't know if Tommy low ever became an Alcoa manager; true? To the best of my knowledge he never became an
Alcoa manager. Okay, what is an Alcoa manager in Jeff Shockey's opinion? A manager is somebody in our opinion that generally has a staff of a production unit, a resource unit, that has a budget control, has hiring and firing capabilities, sets the work plan for the functional unit, whether it's a production unit or resource units, which might be engineering, so forth. That would be my view of a manager. Reports generally to the senior most person at a plant level, at a resource unit 1evel. At a plant like Alcoa Rockdale how many managers are there? Today, in 1950? I mean, it's a hard question for me to answer, I don't know.
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt Okay. Do you know at any time how many managers there were at Alcoa Rockdale? Specifically to give you a number, no. When you were working at Alcoa Point Comfort how many managers were there? I'd say 15 to 20. Was Alcoa Point Comfort a smaller or bigger plant than Alcoa Rockdale? That would depend on the time frame. There was probably a time frame when it was a bigger plant. At the time I was there they were probably close to equivalent size in terms of number of people. In the 1950s, '60s and '70s do you know which was a bigger plant. Point Comfort or Rockdale? I would suspect Point Comfort by the nature of the number of operations they had there, you know, Rockdale was exclusively smelting; Point Comfort had smelting, refining, chi or alkali, raw materials, Alcoa Steamship, Newman gas plant. I would say Point Comfort was the bigger pi ant. Do you believe that Point Comfort would have more manager than Alcoa Rockdale?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. That is difficult to say but the possibility exists that yes, Point Comfort may have had more managers. It's just an issue where you don't know, true? I don't know. Okay. Do you know who someone by the name of Belk is, B-e-l-k? Dr. Belk, yes. Who is Dr. Belk? Dr. Belk was the corporate medical director in 1980 time frame when I joined the company, and remained the corporate medical director for some window of time period. I can't remember when he left or retired. Do you know who someone by the name of Rumberger i s? Earl Rumberger, yes. Who was Mr. Rumberger? He was the director on of industrial hygiene, so Tom Bonney, at least, when I worked in the company, would have reported to Earl Rumberger. There would have been a reporting relationship there. Have you seen a memo from the early '80s from Dr. Belk to Earl Rumberger regarding not putting exposure, asbestos exposure information, into individual employee's files? I think, I seem to recall system document, whether it's related to this case prep or previous ones I believe I've seen a document where Dr. Belk explained that, you know, his concerns about how to handle that or something) system was some)
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MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form, xxx I don't know what the protocol was at the time, I was a pretty junior safety professional back then. And now as Alcoa's hand picked corporate representative you don't know what the protocol for that was; correct? True. I'm sorry, did you answer? True. Do you know someone by the name of Cullen? Dr. Mark Cullen, yes. Who is Dr. Mark Cullen, Dr. Mark Cullen is kind of a senior consultant in occupational medicine that we use as part of a Stanford/Yale agreement Alcoa. He consults and provides us with opinions relative to occupational health issues. Also did you some work for me in the area of injury trend, injury analysis, causal factors, that sort of thing? is he, Dr. Mark Cullen, a senior medical advisor to Alcoa? You're asking me a specific term, I think that's kind of what it is, senior medical advisor under contract or medical advisor under contract at Alcoa through Stanford and Yale; there are other individuals that are part of that contract. And if I understand Dr. Mark Cullen, he reports to you; true? No. Okay. Do you, when you were saying that you use him, do you hire -- who is responsible for Dr. Mark Cullen's contract with Alcoa, you or someone else? Today, someone else. There was a period of time where I was the safety and health director where, I think about a two-year period, where I certainly administered that contract and, you know, made the payments for Mark's services.
Today the director of health or the environmental health and safety and sustainability director, holds that contract, not me. when you held the contract was eight two-year contract? I don't recall the length of the contract so, I mean, the contract may be longer than two years, but again, he reported to, you know, reported to somebody in the Alcoa environmental health and safety organization, so as my role changed the functional reporting relationship also changed. When you oversaw the contract who gave Dr. Mark Cullen assignments, you or someone else? It really is a group sort of thing, we had -- we have an occupational and environmental health advisory committee, which is, you know, we have
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safety, the things we've looked at like the injury rate to employees new in job versus people who have been in the job for an extend the period of time, extend the hours, you know, does the injury rate increase when people work more than x number of hours in a day. so those are kind of the examples from a safety side where Mark would interact with me.
Obviously there are some issues around health. I've been in and out of that process so, you know, I can only speak to more recently. The specifics of previous projects, I know of some historical things back when I was at a business unit that mark certainly advised us and gave us information on, suggestions how to handle certain situations and what to do but I, you know, wasn't involved in the decision-making in that window, that would have been Dr. Jaffe. Mark was brought into the organization I think about 19, I'm going say sometime in the '90s by Dr. Jaffe, who was our corporate medical director, and he was brought in as a consultant. He had worked at Yale at the time, so, I mean, my knowledge of that level of details periphery, to be honest, but the time
frame I was his direct person managing the contract would have better information on. when you were managing the contract with Dr. Mark Cullen he reported to a committee that included you; true? True. Now I want to talk to you about onion properties and asbestos; okay? Okay. With respect to asbestos, do you know what I'm talking about when I talk about onion properti es? I do now. Okay, what are onion properties? xxx I think based on previous questions along that line on previous depositions that onion properties as you're referring to them are the
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Warning about carbon monoxide exposures is very important because can't see it, smell it, taste it or feel it; true? True. That makes warning regarding carbon monoxide all the more critical, because there is no, sir natural signal in the body to alert the body that it's being exposed to carbon monoxide; true? There are symptoms that can warn you, like headache, dizziness, nausea, and certainly we try to communicate those symptoms to people, but if you miss those symptoms or you're asleep in your home at night and you don't have a carbon monoxide alarm, that would be true. Is asbestos analogous to carbon monoxide?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. You have to to explain to me what you mean by analogous. With an asbestos exposure, say, less than five million particles per cubic foot, or maybe even more than five million particles per cubic foot -- strike that, if you have an asbestos exposure around five million particles per cubic foot could you see that asbestos?
You know, could you see a single fiber of asbestos? You might, but, you know, could you differentiate whether a material had or did not have asbestos in it? You'd need to note content,, so you know, I think testified to you earlier that I couldn't say for sure whether you could visually see a five million particles per cubic foot exposure of asbestos or not, I think you probably have experts that could give a better answer. Is it Jeff Shockey's testimony as Alcoa's corporate representative that you cannot offer any testimony regarding whether or not you can see, smell, taste, feel or hear asbestos exposure?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. You're going to have to repeat it, when you added all the other stuff in. Sure. What I'm trying to make, or trying to discuss is talking about asbestos and asbestos does not have onion properties; do you agree or disagree with that? I agree that asbestos does not have onion properti es. Okay. Asbestos does not have onion properties;
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt true? True. You cannot smell asbestos; true? To the best of my knowledge, true. You cannot see asbestos; true? Well, that is -- if it's friable and floating in the air you typically cannot see individual particles of asbestos; true? in certain concentrations you may be able to see particles of, you know, dust or, you know, again, the individual asbestos particles and what percent that is, you couldn't see that. Does asbestos have a taste? To my knowledge, no. Can you hear asbestos? No. Can you feel asbestos if it's friable and ai rborne? Some fibers, like fiberglass and so forth, you can feel, there's an itch, but I can't say for sure on asbestos one way or the other. You don't know one way or the other whether or not a person could feel asbestos; true? True. Okay. Has Alcoa ever had a workers' compensation claim for asbestosis? I don't know for' sure but I suspect we have. Do you know the first time Alcoa had a workers' compensation claim for asbestosis? I don't know. Has Alcoa ever had a workers' compensation claim for lung cancer? Yes. When was the first time Alcoa had a workers' compensation claim for lung cancer? I don't know. Has Alcoa ever had a workers' compensation claim for mesothelioma? Workers' compensation claim? I don't know. Have you ever tried to find that information out? Me, personally, no. Is there someone else that you know of who has tried to find that information out? I don't know that I can give you, you know, an exact person. I'm certain that some of our medical professionals may have, you know, done that kind of research. Is that something you're guessing or speculating about, or something you're testifying to as a fact? Repeat the question again so I hear it? Okay. I'm trying to find out if anyone has ever tried to find out if Alcoa has had a workers' compensation claim for asbestosis or mesothelioma?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. Page 76
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt Anyone? Yes. if you say anyone I'm assuming that includes you, Mr. Fountain, every Alcoa attorney, so I'd say yes. Okay. Has any Alcoa employee ever catalogued or documented the number of mesothelioma lung cancer or asbestosis workers' compensation claims? To my knowledge -- well, I just don't know, I don't know, yeah. Okay. And you don't know who would have; true? True (comma before lung cancer two ago) Have you read coworker depositions in this case? Coworker depositions in this case. Be by eye eye this case eye eye I'm referring to Pepper, Polk, Adams, Bartlett and Britton. Have
you read any of the coworker depositions in any of those five cases? Any of -- Mr. Adams, Mr. Bartlett, Mr. Britton, Mr. Polk and Mr. Pepper's depositions? Yes, sir. No, I have not. Have you read any of the fact witness depositions in any of those five cases, Pepper, Polk, add amounts, Britton or Bartlett? I'm not aware of who the fact witnesses are or aren't but I don't recall reading any. Okay. Have you read any depositions relating to the five cases in which you're testifying about today? Related specifically to those cases depositions? Yes, sir. No. Okay.
MR. MCNULTY: The problem is I'm getting close to ending; can we take a five-minute break?
VIDEOTAPE OPERATOR: The time is now 2:41 p.m., we are going off the record.
(There was a recess in the proceedings.)
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6 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. shockey, we're back after a
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8 A. Good, thanks.
9 Q. Good. Are you ready to continue?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. I believe this will be our last hour and last
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt I guess I'm not aware of any of the descriptions of the witnesses in the Polk case at this point, so -Go ahead, sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off. I'm not aware of the witness's statements that you've taken in this case so I don't know whether we agree or disagree, I don't have an opinion at this point.
As you sit here right now Alcoa does not disagree with the description of the way any of the witnesses in the Polk case have described working with asbestos; true?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. I don't know. Okay, what portion of the description of the way witnesses described working with asbestos in the Polk case do you disagree with? I don't know, I don't know what witnesses are involved that you're talking about. Does Alcoa disagree with the description of the way any of the witnesses described working with asbestos in the Pepper case?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. I don't know. Okay. Does Alcoa disagree with the description of the way any of the witnesses have described working with asbestos in the Adam case? I don't know.
MR. FOUNTAIN: objection, form. MR. MCNULTY: Does Alcoa disagree with the description of the way any of the witnesses have described working with asbestos in the part let case?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. I don't know. Does Alcoa kiss agree with the description of the way any of the witnesses have described work with asbestos in the Britton case?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. I don't know. Why don't you know? Because I don't know the witnesses that are to be called in this particular case. At the time of trial do you intend on giving any opinions that disagrees with the description of the way any of the witnesses have described working with asbestos in the Polk, Pepper, Adams, Bartlett or Britton cases?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. Repeat the question? Yes. At the time of trial do you intend to offer any testimony to the jury disagreeing with the description of the way any of the witnesses have described working with asbestos in the Polk, Pepper, Adams, Bartlett or Britton cases?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. To the best of my knowledge I have not seen or heard of any of those descriptions at this point
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt so I don't know. Okay. The reason I ask is because this is only time I have a chance to talk to you before these five trials, and I need to know if you are going to offer testimony at trial that disagrees or disputes or attempts to contradict the testimony of any of the coworkers of the plaintiffs. Do you understand the issue I have now? I think so. Okay. If you intend to give any testimony, if Alcoa intend to give any testimony disagreeing with the description of the way any of the witnesses have described working with asbestos in the Polk, Pepper, Adams, Bartlett or Britton trials we are going to ask to redepose you before you take the stand at trial, okay? Okay. Okay. Asbestos diseases can cause serious bodily injuries; true?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. Asbestos diseases certainly can cause illness and -- can cause illness, health impairment of up to and including, you know, health impairments that could contribute to death. Death is a serious bodily injury; true?
Yes, illness, not injury. Asbestos can cause death; true? Overexposure to asbestos has the potential to cause death, yes. Alcoa knew, in the 1960s, that asbestos exposure could cause death; true?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form, in the 1960s there was certainly evidence that asbestos exposure or overexposure to asbestos-containing materials, could lead to lung cancer, could lead to chronic pulmonary obstructive disease, and at some point in time mesothelioma, all of which, to my knowledge, can lead to death. Asbestosis can also be deadly; true? The outcome of having asbestosis and the associated chronic obstructive pulmonary disease can lead to death, that's my understanding. Alcoa knew in the 1940s that asbestos could cause death; true?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. I'm not sure I can say, you know, with a great level of confidence exactly what Alcoa knew in the 1940s relative to, you know, asbestos -- did you say asbestos causing death?
Yes, sir. Certainly there were studies that linked exposure to asbestos with a higher incident rate, I think of death, in some of the published literature among textile workers, folks who had worked in mines who directly handled friable material, yes. Alcoa knew in the 1950s that if its workers
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MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. I know there was scientific literature available; to the extent Alcoa had access to it, I can't speak specifically to that, but certainly there was scientific literature available that said that exposure to asbestos could lead to death, yes. Okay, in the 1950s and '60s Alcoa knowingly exposed its workers to asbestos; true?
MR. f o u n t a i n : Objection, form. Well, certainly in the 1950s and '60s there is evidence that there were asbestos-containing materials in use at Alcoa facilities and you could presume that that obviously represented some opportunity for exposure, the levels of
which, you know, may vary based on the job, the type of material, the condition it was in, so forth. Alcoa knew its employees were being exposed asbestos in the 1950s and '60s; true? True. Who is Eddie Huffmaster? Let's see, Eddie, I think was a general mechanic at Point Comfort operations. You are familiar with Eddie Huffmaster's personnel file, true? In a general sense I may have seen it in the past. And in a general sense you may have seen it in the past, I'm referring to August of 1998 when you handled Eddie Huffmaster's Alcoa file; true? I don't know that I handled Eddie Huffmaster's file, that would be in personnel. I may have contributed something to his file. What did you contribute to Eddie Huffmaster's personnel file in August of 1998? As I remember Royce Lightfoot, who I believe at the time was the union steward, had requested that I document a preface as removal activity associated with I want to say it's the cryolite
plant but again, I don't have the document in front of me, relative to sampling results and the removal activities that Eddie was involved in at the time, previous, like May, or something, of that year. Did you interview Eddie Huffmaster? You know what, I don't recall, you know, the details to that level, whether I interviewed Eddie or not. You don't know one way or the other if you interviewed Eddie Huffmaster or not; true? True. Should we rely on Eddie Huffmaster's recollection as to whether or not you, Jeff Shockey, interviewed him?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. Yeah, I don't -- I mean, I'd have to look at the
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4 BY MR. MCNULTY:
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8 A. NO.
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13 A. Not that I'm aware of.
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16 A. Not that I'm aware of.
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MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. Yeah, I mean, that is a pretty broad statement. I don't know that there's a specific protocol of placing documentation in employee's personnel files. I certainly know there are guidelines that have been communicated in the past relative to documenting record retention of exposure sampling, allegations of certain types of exposures. There's some legal requirements under TSCA and other areas that specify those by law, so -- and some of them are just general practi ce.
in this particular case I don't recall the specifics but, you know, I was asked to document what we knew about the exposure at the time that it occurred, you know, I documented it to the best of my abilities xxx (plural) as to what I knew or understood at the time and, you know, that's pretty much what is in there as far as I know. Jeff Shockey documented the exposure at the time it occurred; true? No, the exposure, I believe the potential exposure, occurred in May of 1988, so the request came from Royce later. You probably
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt have the document, I mean, it might be like August or October time frame. I was kind of in transition between jobs but I have still there often on and so they asked that that exposure be documented (he did say 88 there). So I went back to the field sampling data and the records that were there and, you know, followed up with Leroy Wagner and others who had participated in that activity, and it may have been, I don't know if it was Leroy so it could have been care {AOE}, but either one, and that's how I would have put the information together, that would be my customary practice, (xxx don't know if it's a male or female Based on the different items you recall surrounding that event is it still true that you don't recall whether or not you reviewed Eddie Huffmaster?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. That would be true. Okay, it was Alcoa policy starting in the mid 1970s to treat all insulation as if it contained asbestos; true? All insulation as if it contained asbestos in the 1970s? You know, I don't know about the
word all insulation. Certainly there was a period of time where we instructed and others were instructed to treat insulation as containing asbestos unless otherwise, manufacturer's literature. Later on there were some tests that you could do that would give you a reading, like a color code test where you'd use a marker and it would reveal whether it was asbestos or not. I don't know if that answers your question or not, but that's about the best I can do for you. Okay. And if I can summarize and agree or disagree, comma needed), due in the know Alcoa's policy -- strike that. You do not know if Alcoa had the policy beginning in the mid 1970s, to treat Al insulation as though it contained asbestos; true?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. Yeah, not -- the best that I can recall, I can't say that that's true. Okay. Can you say that it's false? No. Okay. You don't know one way or the other; true? That's true.
Okay. Do you know someone by the name of Shelton Albrecht? Yes, Shelton, I believe, worked at Point comfort but, you know, I can't say a hundred percent, but the name's familiar (that's as in Giselle) Do you have any opinion on Shelton Albrecht's credi bi1ity?
MR. f o u n t a i n : Objection, form. Page 82
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt No. As far as you know Shelton Albrecht is an honest person; true? I'm not even sure I know Shelton Albrecht. Alcoa has no opinion one way or another as to whether or not Shelton Albrecht is an honest person; true?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. I don't know. I'm going to withdraw that question.
Does Alcoa have, believe, that Shelton Albrecht is a dishonest person? I don't know. Okay. Does Alcoa have any reason to believe that Shelton Albrecht is a dishonest person?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. I don't know.
Okay. There's asbestos at Alcoa Rockdale today, April 19th, 2012; true? I believe so, yes. Can you quantify how much asbestos is at Alcoa Rockdale today, April 19th, 2012? Accurately quantify, me, personally, I cannot. Who you would ask if you wanted to find out how much asbestos was at Alcoa Rockdale today, April 19th, 2012? I might look to ask somebody at the location who was aware of details of maybe a recent asbestos survey with decommissioning of that operation, something like that. Can you give me the name of anyone? You know, certainly Jim {h a u g } {STOPB} is at the facility, manages environmental control activities, has been there for a period of time. He might be somebody who would know that. How much would it cost to remove the asbestos at Alcoa Rockdale? I don't know. Okay. One estimate that is for a single unit it could cost up to a hundred million dollars to remove the asbestos from that unit at Alcoa Rockdale; do you have any reason to dispute that
number? MR. f o u n t a i n : Objection, form.
I don't know what you're describing as a unit so I'm dealing with limited information but I don't have any information to dispute that number, either. I'm going to ask you now about some of the defenses that have been filed in this case, finance I'm understanding from your -- early on in this deposition we went over your designation and I think you don't have any testimony to offer about that based on some of the items you crossed off but I'm going to ask the questions anyway, okay? Can we take one minute? 69 sure. (.
(There was a discussion off the record.) Page 83
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19 )
20 BY MR. MCNULTY:
21 Q. Alcoa has alleged that the plaintiff's injuries
22
were caused by the negligence of others; who
23
caused the plaintiff's injuries, if not Alcoa
24
(no last comma)
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MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form.
00191
1 A. I don't know.
2 Q. Okay. Alcoa has alleged that the plaintiff knew
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or should have known of the risk of injuries yet
4
assumed that risk freely and voluntarily; how
5
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MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form,
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(singular that time, plaintiff)
8 A. Yeah, I mean, I guess that would cause know
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speculate, too, --
10
MR. FOUNTAIN: Don't speculate.
11 A. -- so I don't know.
12 Q. Okay. Alcoa has alleged that the plaintiff's
13
damages were caused, in whole or in the greater
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part, by his own negligence; how so?
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MR. f o u n t a i n : Objection, form.
16 A. i don't know.
17 Q. Alcoa has alleged that the injuries were caused
18
by other employers other than Alcoa; which other
19
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20
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form.
21 A. I don't know.
22 Q. Alcoa has alleged that the plaintiff's injuries
23
were preexisting; what injuries were preexisting
24
for the plaintiff?
25
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form.
* 00192
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I don't know. Alcoa has alleged that the plaintiff filed mitigate their damages or the injuries that made the basis their claim; what did the plaintiff do to fail to mitigate damages?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. I don't know. Is Alcoa sorry for how workers were exposed to asbestos at their plants (plural)
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. well, certainly to the extent of what we know today and what we wished we would have known about, you know, the hazards or the are risks of asbestos-containing material by today's standards, I think we would be insensitive not to say, you know, that we wished we knew you more, we wish the scientific data was better, we wish the technology was better, and certainly, urine it's always regrettable whether you have a loss are of life of an employee, a retiree, associated with work related exposures or non-work related exposures, xxx so, yeah, as a good, conscientious corporate citizen I would say yeah, we're always sorry when we lose an employee, whether they're a current employee or
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retired employee, for whatever cause. What did Alcoa do wrong in exposing its workers to asbestos?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. I think that requires me to draw a legal conclusion which I'm not capable to really do. Okay. Are you going to do the opposite and say that Alcoa did nothing wrong in exposing its workers to asbestos at its plants? I don't think I'd say that, either. Okay, was Alcoa negligent in the manner in which it exposed its workers to asbestos?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. That would require me to draw a legal conclusion, which I'm not capable of doing, was Alcoa grossly negligent in the manner in which it exposed its employees to asbestos?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. That would require know draw eye legal conclusion, which I'm not capable of doing. Okay. Fair enough.
was Alcoa grossly negligent in the manner in which it exposed the plaintiff to asbestos in its plant?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form.
That would require me to draw a legal conclusion which I'm not qualified to do. Okay. In this case is Alcoa being unfairly accused?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. That would require know draw a legal conclusion which I'm not capable of doing. You're not going to offer any testimony at trial that Alcoa is being unfairly accused at trial; true? As far as I know, yes. And this is my only chance to discover your opinions so that's why I'm asking, I'm trying to know what it is you're going to say to a jury and are you going to say to the jury that Alcoa is being unfairly accused in this case?
MR. FOUNTAIN: objection, form. Yeah, again, accused of what and in what context or time frame? Accused of gross negligence in the death of the plaintiff.
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. That would require me to draw a legal conclusion which I'm not capable of doing. Okay. Right now or at trial; true?
True. And you're not going to offer that testimony at trial; true? what testimony? That Alcoa is being unfairly accused. True. Okay. Do you intend to apologize to the plaintiff's family at trial?
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MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form.
10 A. I don't know.
Q- 11
Okay. As you sit here right now are you
12
planning on apologizing to the plaintiff's
13
family at trial?
14
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form.
15 A. I don't know.
Q. 16
When will you know as to whether or not you
17
intend on apologizing to the plaintiff's family
18
at trial?
19
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form.
20 A. I have no opinion at this point one way or the
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Q- 22
Okay, what information do you still need to
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24
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00196
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2 A. I don't know that, -- I don't know that I have
3
all the information or the facts or the expert
4
opinions, I haven't heard any of those, so I'd
5
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Q- 6
if you intend to testify at trial where you make
7
discover that your opinions before you're on the
8
stand by taking your deposition on that matter,
9
okay (check that {St p f p l t } (?
10 A. Okay.
Q. 11
And this is sort of along the same lines, do you
12
intend to make any statement of remorse to the
13
family of plaintiff at trial?
14
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form.
15 A. I don't know.
Q. 16
is that the same answer?
17 A. Yes.
Q. 18
Okay. Do you believe Alcoa could have done more
19
to prevent its workers from being exposed
20
asbestos in the 1950s?
21
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form.
22 A. Do I believe, given today's situation and in
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24
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00197
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Q. 8
Okay. Alcoa could have done more to prevent its
9
employees from being exposed to asbestos in the
10
1950s; true?
11 A. I think that's a possibility, yes.
Q- 12
Okay.
13
MR. MCNULTY: Object to the
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nonresponsive portion, everything before yes.
15 BY MR. MCNULTY:
Q- 16
Do you believe Alcoa could have done more to
17
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt asbestos in the 1960s? it's possible. What could Alcoa have done in the 1960s to prevent its workers from being exposed to asbestos?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. Well, certainly I think we could have gone out of the casting business, which probably is a true statement, but pretty unrealistic. We certainly, you know, had the opportunity to communicate the potential hazards to the extent that those hazards were communicate as part of the debate that we've had over the last couple hours, and so I think you could always have the at some point in time to communicate more.
Certainly there's always the opportunity to be aggressive at finding substitutes, which I think in most cases we were.
We certainly demonstrated that we worked on the technology aspects of our processes to try to eliminate some of the exposures that were potentially more of a concern around the redesign and elimination of the need to use molten metal marinite in headers. I think there's evidence that we tried to hire good industrial hygienists, I think we could have always said that you could hire more and, you know, staff more health resources. The practicalities of that in 1960 I don't know but that's always a potential. So I think there are things that you can say in hindsight that you too, and I'm sure, you know, 20 years from now in hindsight somebody will be able to say there are more things we could have ton no in-2012 with some material, whether it's nanoparticles or something else. You've known about this deposition today, April 19th, 2012, for several months; true? Since, like the first part of the year, okay, why didn't you read any of the plaintiff's depositions in this case?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. I don't know, I didn't have 'em. Okay. Alcoa has operations in Asia, true? True. What countries in Asia does Alcoa have operations in? China; Korea; (you can global that Korea). I don't know if you consider Japan Asia or not. Japan, off the top of my head that's what I recall. When did Alcoa begin operations in China? I'm not sure of the exact date but, you know, I think it was after, somewhere like after the year 2000, maybe. Sometime in the last ten or 12 years Alcoa has begun operations in China; true?
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt I believe that's correct, yes. when is the approximate date that Alcoa began operations in Korea? I don't know for sure on that one. Do you know the decade? Yeah, I don't. I mean, certainly this decade. Okay. Sometime in the last ten years Alcoa began operations in Korea; true? True. When did Alcoa begin operations in Japan? We've had operations in Japan, some of those operations aren't active anymore, but, gee, in Japan, probably even in the mid '90s. Alcoa began operations in Japan sometime around the mid '90s; true? Yeah. They might have been earlier, but that's -- I know that I can recall operations in Japan in the mid to early '90s, yeah. Does Alcoa consider Mr. Bart let's case to be a frivolous case?
MR. f o u n t a i n : objection, form. I don't know. Does Alcoa consider Mr. Britton's case to be a frivolous case?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. I don't know. Does Alcoa consider Mr. Adams' case to be a frivolous case?
MR. FOUNTAIN: objection, form. I don't know. Does Alcoa consider Mr. Pepper's case to be a frivolous case?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. I don't know. Does Alcoa consider Mr. Polk's case to be a frivolous case?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. I don't know. Are you going to tell the jury in the plaintiff's case that the case is frivolous? Not to my knowledge. What information would you need learn or obtain to make the analysis as to whether or not Alcoa believes the plaintiff's case is frivolous?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. I don't know at this point. If you intend to argue to the jury that the case -- strike that, if you intend to testify to the jury that the case is frivolous, again, that's another issue that we'll want to discover your response on that issue prior to the time you take the witness stand in front of the live jury and we'll request your deposition on that matter; okay?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. Okay. If the jury were to determine that Alcoa was grossly negligent in this case what would you,
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt Jeff Shockey, say about the jury's decision?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. I would not be offering any opinion. Do you intend to respect the jury's judgment regardless of what it is?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. Are you asking that question relative to me, or Alcoa? Alcoa.
MR. FOUNTAIN: Same objection. That would require me to make a legal decision for the corporation which I'm not authorized or competent to do. Okay. Did Alcoa do everything that it could to protect its workers from asbestos in the 1970s?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. Everything, I don't know.
Okay, (put quotes around everything Kate) do you have any idea of how many people who have worked at Alcoa have been diagnosed with mesothelioma? No. Mr. Shockey, have you understood all of my questions today? You use that word again. To the best of my ability I think I've understood what you've asked, and I've responded to the best of my ability accordingly. If I asked you a question and you responded to it, can I assume that you understood my question? You can assume that; I'm not sure it would be fact. Okay. What question did I ask you that you answered that you did not understand?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. You've probably asked me well over a hundred questions and at this point, none of them jump out as I question I may not have understood, but certainly I haven't had a chance to review the transcript and, you know, review my response to determine whether there may have been a
misunderstanding or something that needed clarification. Okay. And I'm not talking about clarification, I'm just -- are you in the habit of answering questions if you don't understand the question? No. Okay. And did you answer any questions that you can think of right now that you didn't understand? That I didn't understand? Not that I can think of. I know there are some questions where I'm not sure you understood what my response was, but, you know, you'd have to tell me if -Well, don't worry about me.
is there any answer you wish to change? I don't think so. I would call your attention
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt again, we had the discussion of what is monitoring, and you and I think may have been on a different wavelength on that one when you referred to monitoring. Okay, let's make sure we're on the same wavelength before this deposition ends.
what do we need to amend or supplement or correct regarding our discussion
of medical monitoring? When you say medical or health monitoring, that's a pretty broad category to me. That can involve actual physical exams, like we talked about, it can involve various tests or procedures or protocols for specific materials or specific exposures. It can also involve field audits by industrial hygiene professionals that make qualitative assessments of the workplace and what the potential health aspects are. It can involve quantitative assessments, which you would probably, in layman's terms, refer to as sampling, for either personal exposure (new paragraph) with a sampling pump on an individual, or area exposure. It can also involve surveys, so health monitoring can involve surveys like a noise survey, like a survey to identify asbestos-containing materials in a material in the ceiling, in the floor tile, things like that. So when you use the term monitoring, you think I think of a much narrower field of the definition of monitoring than what I do. Okay. What goes into Alcoa's current-day medical monitoring program for was it coal dust?
Coal tar pitch volatiles? Yes, sir. what's involved in that medical monitoring program with Alcoa retirees? Okay. Now you're talking about medical monitoring of retirees, which narrows the field to a very specific issue, okay. That is your question? is that really what you want me to respond to? That's the most recent question I've asked you. What goes into that program? Okay. And again, I'd refer you to one of the medical professionals that you'll talk to, but certainly you would identify, to the best of your ability, where you have the potential for coal tar pitch volatiles in the work environment, what routes of entry are involved, what jobs or tasks and job classification you know, so that brings it down to the employee level, what were tne jobs or tasks that were done and what were the exposure levels for those specific jobs or tasks, how frequently they were done, so you could characterize the exposure accurately.
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt employees worked over their work history, what exposure levels they may or may not have had to coal tar pitch volatiles. What their their medical history on preemployment, during employment, showed of the different, you know, physiological exams, blood tests urine tests are et cetera, et cetera, and then, you know, you would track and monitor those exposures medically going forward to see if they showed any early signs other what I call indicators, medical people may refer to 'em as markers, for certain things that would flag you that they may be predisposed to the potential for bladder cancer or having some other, you know, marker that would say they were potentially developing symptoms that might alert you to an issue that you could actually intervene and perhaps counteract the progression of some, you know, potential illness, that sort of thing.
But, I mean, there's a protocol for it, you could certainly refer to it and I'm not a medical profession and that's about the best layman's description I could give you. Is it Alcoa's position that bladder cancer, the progression of bladder cancer, can be blunted or
stopped if the intervention is done early enough?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. The requires, you know, really a medical professional to give you the best answer, but it's my understanding that certainly that's why we're monitoring retirees for that potential, is there is some marker where there's an opportunity to intervene. The success or the ability, you know, the what do you want to call it, the success rate of that, I don't know. Again, I'd refer to the medical professionals, ITm not qualified to answer it. Asbestos diseases have markers, as well; true?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. There are some indicators. Obviously, you know, chest X-rays reveal some fibrosis of the lungs, and so there are some indicators. I am not aware of an intervention that would, you know, stop the progression of an asbestos-related illness, you know, certainly there are some things that can accelerate the progression, we've already talked about those. I'd refer that to one of the medical professionals for a more complete answer.
Is there any other answer you wish to change? At this time, not to my knowledge, would you like to take a few minutes and step outside the room and talk with your lawyer and decide if you want to change any other answers? I don't think so, I don't think that's necessary. Okay. Have I been courteous to you at all times
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today?
10 A. Yes, sir.
11
MR. MCNULTY: Okay. Thank you very
12
much for your time, Mr. Shockey, this deposition
13
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14
Bill, are you reserving?
15
MR. FOUNTAIN: I've got a few
16
followups, I'll reserve the rest.
17
MR. MCNULTY: Okay.
18
19
CROSS-EXAMINATION
20
21 BY MR. FOUNTAIN:
22 Q. Mr. Shockey, I wanted to ask you, you were
23
talking earlier in response to Mr. McNulty's
24
questions about air monitoring and sampling that
25
won't at Alcoa; do you recall that testimony?
?
00210
1 A. I do.
2 Q. And with regards specifically to those questions
3
that had to do with what air monitoring or
4
sampling may have been done in the '50s and
5
'60s, do you recall that line of questions --
6 A. I do, I recall that.
7 Q. -- am I correct, sir, that to the extent that
8
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9
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10
nuisance did you dust; is that correct?
11 A. Nuisance dust or what they called mineral fibers
12
at the time, that would be my understanding,
13
yes.
14 Q. All right. And are you aware at Rockdale, for
15
instance, or say at any other plant, where the
16
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17
you know, in that connection?
18 A. During that time frame?
19 Q. Yes, sir.
20 A. Not that I can specifically recall.
21 Q. And then with regard to the air mop touring that
was specific for asbestos, have you seen
23
evidence of that having been done by Alcoa
24
follow OSHA?
25 A. Yes, following OSHA, you know, I have seen
?
00211
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evidence of that specific to asbestos as the
2
contaminant of concern or the material of
3
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4 Q. And I know you've also testified that with
5
regard to the marinite at Vernon, that there
6
were some situations where asbestos was tested,
7
or sampled, prior to OSHA; correct?
8 A. That's correct.
9 Q. All right. But other than that, just as a
10
routine or as you understand a routine air
11
monitoring and sampling was done after OSHA came
12
out?
13 A. That's true.
14 Q. All right. And you're not aware of any routine
15
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16
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17
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt Not that I recall. All right. And with regard to asbestos surveys, you were asked a few questions, I want to make sure I understood what you were saying there, with regard to the surveys as to where asbestos was and where it might be used, are you referring to the surveys that you looked at in this case in the 1970s and on?
Specific to Rockdale in particular or -No, just specific to Alcoa plants. Yes. You were also asked some questions about Dr. Mark Cullen? Yes. And you know Dr. Mark Cullen? Do I know Dr. Mark Cullen. Is it your understanding that when he was contracted to do some work for Alcoa that he was an employee of Yale university? Initially, yes, he was an employee of Yale University. And who is he an employee now of? To the best of my knowledge he's employed by Stanford university. Okay. And as I another relationship, he was a consultant, a medical consultant that Alcoa used from time to time to do various projects; is that right? That's correct. And there was a period of time of about two years where he reported to you, and then who did you then report to in Alcoa?
The period of time that I was the director of health and safety I reported to Bill O'Rourke, who was the vice president of environmental health and safety for Alcoa. And who did Mr. O'Rourke report to? Mr. O'Rourke reported to, during that two-year time frame, our CEO. And with regard to the other time periods when Mr. -- or Dr. Cullen was not reporting to you, do you recall who he did report to? Yes, i'll give you my best recollection, my first awareness of Dr. Cullen as a resource, a consultant that was used, was in the tenure of Dr. Jaffe. He actually introduced us to Dr. Cullen. Dr. Jaffe was the corporate health director, so he had medical and industrial hygiene reporting to him. Ana how about after Dr. Jaffe? Dr. Jaffe left the organization, I was no longer in Pittsburgh at the time but my understanding of that reporting relationship during that time frame was that Dr. Cullen either reported to Jose Terragano, who was the EHS director for the company, environmental health and safety, or he reported to Bob James, whoever the chief
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toxicologist, occupational health manager for
2
the company, who reported to Mr. Terragano, who
3
reported to, I think it was the vice president
4
of EHS, or vice president of EHS audit and
5
compliance, who reported to the CEO, as I
recal1.
7
Dr. Cullen has testified in this case that he
8
was hired by Paul O'Neill; who is Paul O'Neill?
9
Paul O'Neill is a retired Alcoa CEO, so at the
10
time Paul O'Neill was our CEO from somewhere
11
from '87 time frame, I think, to around 2000,
12
not exact dates, rough dates.
13
Dr. Cullen also testified that it was his
14
understanding as to the reason Paul O'Neill
15
hired him was -- he used the word scoundrel, but
16
it had to do with having opinions that might rub
17
edges of companies or corporations and that was
18
why he was retained, because Paul O'Neill was
19
such an advocate for safety; is that your
20
understanding of his xxx --
21
MR. McNULTY: Object to the form of
22
the question.
23
I don't know the details of any discussion
24
with -- between Paul O'Neill and Dr. Cullen and
25
how that came about, but I know that after
?
002:
l
Dr. Jaffe left of the organization Dr. Cullen
2
remained as a consultant for the organization,
3
as I just described the previously reporting
4
relationships. Certainly during the O'Neill
5
tenure as CEO environmental health and safety
6
certainly was in a high and forefront position
7
in lots of dialogue. Paul was a very committed
8
CEO, intentionally interested in moving the
9
organization forward when it came to
10
environmental health and safety.
11
Paul's style was such that it would
12
not surprise me that he would select somebody
13
who is an independent thinker with independent
14
views that may not be the mirror views of the,
15
you know, the profession in our organization or
16
the historical aspects of the organization. I
17
think those are important views to have to keep
18
the organization balanced.
19
I certainly benchmark with other
20
companies, have discussions, participate in
21
panels with leading thought thinkers in the
22
safety area, many of which I don't agree with on
23
every aspect what have they say, but I think in
24
general, the sum of the parts makes for a better
25
whole when you have that kind of dialogue and
*
002
1
debate, especially on complex issues or
2
emerging-type issues, and it's always good to
3
get other perspectives. I enjoy the same sort
4
of frank dialogue with xxx steelworkers in the
5
safety areas and have exchange with those folks,
as well, periodically on views on different
issues. So I think Dr. Cullen {TPWHRAUT} from a
medical community perspective, somebody who had,
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you know, reasonable respect from the profession
10
that he's in. Had views that, at times, were, I
11
think you used the word maybe contentious, or he
12
did -- or difficult or challenging; I think
13
those are healthy views to have in a debate on
14
issues that sometimes are scientific knowledge
15
are and don't have a clear black and white
16
conclusion.
17
So I don't know if I answered your
18
question very effectively or not.
19 Q. No, I appreciate that.
20
MR. MCNULTY: Object to the
21
nonresponsiveness.
BY MR. FOUNTAIN:
23 Q. Has Dr. Cullen ever been a something something
24
of Alcoa?
25 A. NO.
00217
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Q. A.
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8
9
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20
21
22
23
24
25
Of Alcoa? Check check) NO. Did Alcoa ever confide management of the whole of its organization or any department or division to Dr. Cullen? Not to my knowledge, no. You mentioned unions; what has been your experience with regard to the union's involvement at the plant levels of Alcoa (check confide management) You know, and I can speak to a couple different unions, obviously, if we talk about the -- some of the examples that we discussed here earlier, the united steelworkers, certainly represented the workforce at Point Comfort. Also represented the workforce at Rockdale. We have the aerospace and machinists workers, they may have different names now, early on we had the aluminum glass and brickworkers, they're now with the steelworkers, we have the IBEW in a number of our plants (check check (so I, I mean, labor is, you know, diversely represented by the facilities. Alcoa has in the U.S. also internationally (no period) Australia, Canada obviously have -- Europe, has union
6
00218
1
representation, but not all of our facilities
2
are unionized, either.
3 Q. All right.
4
MR. MCNULTY: Object to the
5
nonresponsiveness.
BY MR. FOUNTAIN:
7 Q. Has it been your experience at Alcoa that at the
8
plant level, that they have their own industrial
9
hygiene or safety and health committees?
10 A. Yes. I mean, generally, let's take the steel
11
work {e } plants, for example, you know, by
12
contract, and for as long as I've worked at
13
Alcoa, and at least based on what I know from
14
locations that I've worked that were part of the
15
steelworker contract, for a number of years, you
16
know, predating when I joined the company in
17
1980, there was a pretty active joint safety and
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health committee in those types of facilities,
19
by contract, in many cases. Typically equal
20
number of management representatives, an equal
21
number of labor representatives, the union
22
safety committee members, so forth, generally
23
co- chaired by somebody appoint by the union
24
generally the safety manager or you may, I like
25
to rotate line managers into the co-chair so
22 *
00219
1
that, you know, they're sitting there as the
2
management leader and I'm there as the
3
consultant type of person for the entire group.
4
But, you know, they would function on a plant
5
level.
6
Hygiene would in some cases had
7
separate committees, like an industry hygiene
8
commit, they might call it an environmental
9
control or a environmental health committee, and
10
safety, safety dealing with the acute injury
11
potential, physical hazards generally, health,
12
hygiene environmental dealing with, you know,
13
air issues, noise, chemical exposure,
14
potentials, that sort of thing. And there's
15
certainly evidence that those committees existed
16
and were active, you know, in the early, in the
17
'70s time frame, maybe even earlier, but
18
certainly from my experience, you know, I've
19
seen, you know, testified that they were active
20
in the '70s.
21 Q. And did you see them --
MR. MCNULTY: object to the
23
responsiveness.
24 BY MR. FOUNTAIN:
25 Q. Were they also active at Point Comfort in the
? 00220
1 2 A. 3 4 Q. 5 6 A. 7 8 9
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13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
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1980s when you were there? Oh, they were absolutely after I at Point Comfort in the 1980s when I was there. Can you give me an -- how they would deal with them at the plant level (check check (12346789. We'd meet monthly (check check). We would generally pick a department, the union co-chairman and myself would pick a department and by contract would tour the department, talk to individual employees about safety issues, safety concerns, in some cases, pretty good union co-chair, he would help on the front end by maybe making a trip or two to the departments, the various departments in the plant a week or two before the meeting, talk to the departmental safety representatives, see if they were having any issues that may or may not be getting resolved, any concerns.
if there were issues that, you know, let's say one particular department maybe was having at trouble moving the ball on something we might pick that department to go do our tour through, we generally tour the department safety rep ana the area supervisor for that department, we'd walk around, we'd look for
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potential hazards, we'd talk to employees about
2
the safety program, safety processes.
3
we'd identify any potential
4
noncompliance with, in this case, typically MSHA
5
regulations, typically things like that, so it
6
was kind of a boots on floor exercise prior to
7
the meeting, then we'd come into the meeting, we
8
typically had old business, we'd check on that,
9
check on followup, we'd discuss then new
10
business and we might share some information,
11
you know, if something new came out, a new
12
requirement and we had a rules committee, so
13
when we developed in-plants rules that was a
14
joint effort, as well, so we'd have a subgroup
15
that would be part of the safety and health
16
rules committee that would kind of define the
17
safe work practices or we might have a project
18
where they'd look at a particular type of
19
situation we had in the plant that had potential
20
hazard and we might assign a time to problem
21
solve that, come back ana give us a report or an
investigation, tell us what they recommend,
23
again, joint efforts.
24
If we had new personal protective
25
equipment we were going to trial in the plant
00222
1
we'd probably raise that issue, if we had done
2
any industrial hygiene sampling between the time
3
of the previous meeting this and meeting we
4
generally reviewed the results. Generally, the
5
plant safety co-chair and I would review those
6
results first before I ever communicated the
7
results back to the department and to the
8
individual employees, we'd sit down and talk
9
about it and then we'd also talk about 'em in a
10
general sense of hey, we took x number of
11
samples in the bauxite raw materials area, we
12
took ten samples, we don't give 'em individual
13
sampling results unless the employee gives us
14
permission, so generally, we'd say we took ten
15
samples, we found one or two folks that we
16
certainly need to talk with them about the work
17
method they were using, they were wearing
18
respirators, et cetera, so we'd have those kind
19
of discussions on a general scale, on a specific
20
scale for sampling that we completed, that was
21
my practice there with the union co-chair when
22
we took the samples and, you know, then we'd
23
communicate to the supervisor, and also to the
24
individual employees who wore the pumps, noise
25
meters, whatever.
00223
1 Q. And with regard to the --
2
MR. MCNULTY: Object to the
3
nonresponsive portion.
4 BY MR. FOUNTAIN:
5 Q. With regard to the united Steelworkers' union,
6
did those members take an active role in the
7
committee?
8 A. Absolutely.
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MR. MCNULTY: Object to form.
10 BY MR. FOUNTAIN:
11 Q. And did you, from time to time, have federal or
12
state regulators into the plants?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Can you tell us about that?
15 A. At Point Comfort, because of the wait plant was
16
built and the different areas, a portion of the
17
plant came under MSHA, a portion of the planned
18
are plant came under United states Coast Guard,
19
a portion of the plant came under the Texas
20
Railroad Commission, another portion of the
21
plant came under OSHA. And then we used what we
22
called sealed-source -- sources, little pellets,
23
sealed-source radiation to measure flow and
24
density in pipelines, and so that triggered
25
Texas Department of Health radiation safety
? 00224
1 2 3 4 Q. 5 6 7 A. 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21
22
23 24 25 ? 00225
1 2 Q. 3 4 5 6 7 8 A. 9 10 11 12 13 14 Q. 15 A. 16 17
inspectors, so I had, probably, more inspection health than a little bit back then {STHFPLT} check that) Do you know which of those agencies or regulators would have been in the Rockdale pi ant? Rockdale plant well, for sure, during the ten your that we owned and operated the mine, MSHA. OSHA, for, you know, the time period from when OSHA came into effect and Rockdale was operati ng.
Texas Department of Health, I would assume, given the cafeteria service onsite, the probability that they probably used some of the same sealed-source meters like we did to detect flow in tanks or vessels, the Texas Department of Health.
Let's see, MSHA, OSHA, Texas Department of Health -- Texas Railroad Commission, because the Rockdale, {SAPB} daily and Southern Railroad also ran at Rockdale, Point Comfort we had Point Comfort more from an environmental standpoint but certainly had good, you know, air emissions would be another one.
Those are examples, I don't know that I 've had it 'em all but -- Okay. Let me ask you one last area, you've been asked a lot of questions today about asbestos in the plants and, you know, specifically to Rockdale; what other hazards, health hazards, safety hazards, were the plant officials and superintendents and whatnot, confronted with? That could be, you know, it's kind of like we said, we talk about things evolve, it's a journey, but certainly at a smelter you're going to have a lot of high voltage because of the nature of the smelting process requires, you know, substantial amount of electricity. Electrical voltage? Yeah, so when I say hi voltage we're talking like overhead power line high voltage potential like your utility companies deal W certainly a
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt significant potential. Of course we have a lot of mobile equipment at the mine, bulldozers, haul trucks that you can tip 'em over, you can roll 'em over, and certainly, you know, those have potential.
We had trucks that -- crews' trucks and things that would be hauling molten metal, cranes that would can handling large ladles of molten metal. Then we had the casting process, which we talked about, you know, that involves direct chill casting aluminum with water and aluminum, you know, comes in a molten form when you cast, so you're putting it in a holding furnace or you bring it in the pot rooms in a molten form. You're using water to chill it, and direct chill, it's passed through a mold that gives it its shape and of course that mold is where we talked about the technology of cooling and chilling that mold such that it freezes the metal, if that doesn't happen, if you have problems with the header or the mold you can have a bleedout. water expands at a rate of about 1600-, 1700-to-one, and you can have a molten metal water explosion that's going to shatter the metal out of the pit xxx check check) stepping in pots, which, you know, they're at 900 degrees, see the cryolite in those pots.
You've got -- I mentioned cranes. We've got combustion systems, large scale combustion, as well as natural gas in the combustion system, you know, that's firing the pot, firing the furnaces. So you've got all kinds of safety issues with explosion potential from natural gas.
we also had an atomizer at that facility, it made powder that powers the Space Shuttle, and things like that, it's a propellent, it's an explosive dust, so we had that issue at Rockdale.
From a health standpoint, we also mentioned coal tar pitch volatiles, we've mentioned the potential application of asbestos-containing materials in some of those situations.
You have fluoride xxx emissions in the pot room that are both an envi ronmental concern for vegetation, and so forth, outside the pot rooms, and HF gas or emissions from the pots that you have to control. HF gas can be irritant, can have some significant health effects if not properly controlled. What other chemicals that you can think of? Other chemicals in a smelter? well, you certainly have, you know, carbon dust, it doesn't have a really huge health issue. You've got some silica, perhaps, in refractories. I mentioned coal tar pitch volatiles, HF. Yeah,
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt that's, I think -- I mean, you've got noise, obviously, a lot of ergonomic strain/sprain potential. I don't know if you were asked this question or not, but what is your current position at Alcoa? My current position at Alcoa is corporate director of safety. And how long have you had that position? I've had that position, in part, in 2006 I actually was the North American safety director and did double duty as the corporate safety director in function but not in title or job promotion.
in 2007 I actually became the full-time corporate safety director until, I think it's 2009. You know, we kind of had this economic crunch in the world and it just happened to coincide with the time when Bob James, who was our corporate health director, retired, and so they asked me to, you know, step in as an interim person to, really, be the director of safety and health until they found a candidate.
I suspect they were looking, perhaps, for a candidate from the outside, may not have
identified a candidate from the inside. We had a candidate from the inside that I think is certainly capable of that role but was in another role and not available at the time that -- I suspect they didn't have a ready-now substitute for the role he was in.
So now in, let's see, like January or February, I guess it's of 2011, somewhere in that time frame -- I'm starting to lose track, after 32 years, of exact dates -- we reinstituted the full-time health director's role as conditions improved, and that individual now has the health director's role, we also have an environmental director and now I have my original role as safety director. And the new health director, who is that? Hai g Sakoi an. And did you know Haig Sakoian prior to him becoming the health director? Yes. And how far does that relationship go back? Well, Haig was here before I was, I can't tell you the exact year Haig and I became acquainted but I'm sure it was probably sometime in the early '80s.
Do you know where he started in Alcoa, or what his position was? Haig started, I think, in the corporate safety staff as an industrial -- or health and safety staff as an industrial hygienist, is your position then parallel to his, you're safety and he's health? That's correct.
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QBY-
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AQ..
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt And prior to that you had been health and safety? That's correct.
MR. FOUNTAIN: Okay. Mr. Shockey, I believe that's all I have, thank you.
THE WITNESS: Okay. MR. MCNULTY: Mr. Shockey, I've got maybe ten minutes just to add on to that. Are you good to continue right now or do you want to take a break or do you want to just keep going, do you want me to just jump right in? THE WITNESS: Yeah, just go ahead. REDIRECT EXAMINATION
Are you offering testimony that Alcoa followed
the proper air testing protocols after OSHA in the 1970s? Am I offering testimony that Alcoa follows the proper air protocols? Yes, sir. That would require me to be an expert in the air protocols, which I'm not. I can offer testimony that we followed the protocols that were given to us by our industrial hygiene laboratory at the Al key technical center. Okay. And what's the basis for that testimony? Because I was here in 1980. Okay. Now, prior to 1980 when you were present and have personal knowledge did you have any personal knowledge that Alcoa followed proper air testing protocols after o s h a in the 1970s (may have been do you you have) Personal knowledge, no. Do you have corporate knowledge that Alcoa followed proper air testing protocols follow OSHA in the 1970s? Not that I can say without maybe having the ability to review additional documentation one way or the other. You don't have an opinion right now as to
whether or not Alcoa did or did not follow proper air testing protocols following OSHA in the 1970s; true? True. Okay. You've asked some questions to suggest Dr. Mark Cullen is independent (that's what he said) and has a rogue streak; I'm going to ask you some questions with with Paul O'Neill now, okay? Okay, but let me clarify, I didn't say Mark Cullen had a rogue streak, think he said that.
MR. FOUNTAIN: I was describing how Dr. Cullen described himself. Okay. Paul O'Neill was in the Bush administration; true? True -- let's see, which Bush. You know which
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt one; right? Yes.
He left Alcoa and became the Secretary of the Treasury; true? True. He was fired as the secretary of the treasury after a year; true?
MR. FOUNTAIN: objection, form. I don't know if he was fired or rehe signed. Okay. Paul O'Neill was also chairman of the Rand Corporation; true? I don't know if Paul's been chairman, I know he's a member of the board. Okay, what is the Rand Corporation? Rand Corporation is, to my knowledge and, you know, you can like the up on the internet, but it's an independent organization that conducts public policy research in different areas, a lot of broad different areas. You know, I'm a member of their health and safety advisory board with John Howard, who's the director of NIOSH,
and Mike Wright who's with the u.S. Steel
workers and constant baker, who's with the California commission on workers' compensation and safety, think it's called. Do you need more? I mean -- No, I was just asking what is your understanding of what the Rand organization does or what it is. It's a think tank; true? That would be a good characterization. Okay. Paul O'Neill, after he was fired by the Bush administration, characterized the Bush administration as, quote, a blind man in a room full of deaf people; true?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. I don't know how he characterized 'em. Did you -- do you have a copy of his book, the Price of Loyalty? Do I have a copy of his book, I haven't read the book completely. Okay. How did you get a copy of his book? I want to think one of our folks in the office got a couple copies, went over, had Paul autograph 'em and came back and gave 'em to a couple of us, and I happened to be one that she gave 'em to. You have an autographed copy of a book your former boss wrote but you haven't right; true? True. I have the audio version, too, so I've listened to the audio version but I haven't paged through the entire book. Okay. Have you listened to the entire audio version? I think so but I don't recall for sure. Okay. You have two copies of Paul O'Neill's book, the Price of Loyalty, one is an audio version which you listened to and the other is an autographed copy; true?
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt True. Okay. Alcoa Rockdale has received OSHA violations for excessive asbestos exposure to its workers in the 1970s; true?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. I don't specifically recall if they were for asbestos or not. I know there's some citations. You'd have to show me the actual document something something in other depositions -Can you repeat it, we lost your voice. Sure. Have you been asked about Alcoa's -- Alcoa Rockdale's OSHA violations in other depositions? Alcoa Rockdale, specifically? Yes, sir. Or Point Comfort? Rockdale. Okay. Do you know what 29 CFR 1910.1000 subsection C governs? 1910.1000 subsection C, I'd have to look it up, but I believe it's nuisance dust. That's correct.
Nuisance dust in excess of the eight hour time-weighted average. Do you know if
Alcoa Rockdale has received OSHA violations concerning nuisance dust in excess of the eight hour time-weighted average?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. I seem to recall, and this may be the document you're referring to, something around bath crushing operations with a front-end loader, is that -- I'm not sure, but my point is you are familiar, or at least it sounds familiar to you that Alcoa Rockdale has received OSHA violations for asbestos; true?
MR. FOUNTAIN: Objection, form. Sounds familiar. Nuisance dust and asbestos, you know, there are other nuisance dusts other than asbestos; can you read the specific ci tation? Sure. Nuisance dust can be lots of things, including asbestos; true? True. Alcoa has at least four plants in Texas, or had at least four plants in Texas, one in Palestine, one in Marshall, one in Rockdale and one in Point Comfort; true? True.
Have I listed all of Alcoa's major facilities in Texas? in 1970? At any time. I mean, has Alcoa had more plants than that that they shuttered. No, we have more current plants in Texas that aren't on the list you describe (check that) what is the highest number of Alcoa plants that
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt it's had in Texas? A. At any one time? Q. Yes, sir. A. This is going test my geography, five, six? I'm trying to think in if Texarkana is in Texas or Arkansas, I can't remember which side of the river the Texarkana plant is on but I think it's five or six at any one time. Q. At one time Alcoa has had five or six different plants throughout Texas; true? A. Approximately five or six, yes. Q. You live outside of Pittsburgh; true? A. True. Q. Do you ever go eat at restaurants in Pittsburgh? A. Yes. Q. Does Pittsburgh or Pennsylvania have food safety inspectors? A. Yes. Q. Because Pittsburgh or Pennsylvania has food safety inspectors, did does that mean that every restaurant kitchen in Pittsburgh is clean? A. No 69 pass the witness.
MR. FOUNTAIN: i'll reserve the rest of my questions, thank you.
MR. McNULTY: Mr. Shockey, thank you very much for your time. I need to talk -- this deposition is over, we can go off the record.
VIDEOTAPE OPERATOR: The time is now 4:14 p.m., we are off the record.
(There was a discussion off the record.) (The proceedings were concluded at 4:14 p.m.)
ROUGH DRAFT The stenographic notes taken in the within proceeding have been translated instantaneously into their English equivalents through a computerized process called translation. A rough draft, in ASCII format, is available to all counsel on a diskette or by e-mail. The text produced of these proceedings, as well as the rough draft ASCII transferred onto a diskette, is unedited and uncertified, and may contain untranslated stenotype, misspelled proper names and technical words, occasional reporter's notes, and/or nonsensical English word combinations. These will be corrected on the final Certified transcript upon its delivery to you in accordance with our standard delivery terms, or on an expedited basis, as requested.
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Shockey Jeffrey (Rough Draft).txt This rough draft is intended only for the 10 purpose of augmenting counsel's notes and is not intended to be used or cited in any court proceeding 11 as representing a final edited and proofread transcript. 12 _____________________________________ April 20, 2012
13 Catherine c. Leverty
Court Reporter, Notary Public 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Y
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