Document MGXjbK76q1MB23wyyka5wQ4va

STATE OF ALABAMA IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR ETOWAH (Transferred from Calhoun County, COUNTY Alabama) SABRINA ABERNATHY, et al. Plaintiffs, versus MONSANTO COMPANY, et al. CIVIL ACTION NO. CV-2001-832 (Consolidated) Defendants. ___________/ DEPOSITION OF SANDY SMITH The deposition of SANDY SMITH was taken before Deborah Salers Garrett, Certified Shorthand Reporter, Registered Professional Reporter, as Commissioner, commencing at 1:45 p.m. on January 3, 2002, by the Plaintiffs, at the law offices of Fite & Miller, Suite 400, SouthTrust Bank Building, Anniston, Alabama, pursuant to the stipulations set forth herein. Regional Reporting Service, Inc. 755 Walnut Street Gadsden, Alabama 35901-0755 HARTOLDMON0032150 2 1 APPEARANCES 2 For the Plaintiffs: 3 CHARLES CUNNINGHAM, Esq. Morrissey Building, Suite 200 4 304 West Liberty Street Louisville, Kentucky 40202 5 For the Defendants: 6 LAWRENCE J. MYERS, Esq. 7 EDWARD M. NEWSOM, Esq. SMITH, HELMS, MULLIS & MOORE 8 1355 Peachtree Street, NE, Suite 750 Atlanta, Georgia 30309 9 10 INDEX 1 1 Page 12 S tipulations 3 1 3 Reporter's Certificate 83 14 1 5 EXAMINATIONS 16 Witness: SANDY SMITH Page 1 7 By Mr. Cunningham 4 18 19 No exhibits were marked for identification, 2 0 offered or attached as exhibits hereto. 21 22 23 REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032151 3 1 STIPULATIONS 2 IT IS STIPULATED AND AGREED by the 3 parties, through their respective counsel, 4 that the deposition of SANDY SMITH may be 5 taken before Deborah Salers Garrett, CSR, RPR, 6 as Commissioner and Notary Public, Alabama at 7 Large, at Anniston, Alabama, on January 3, 8 2002, at 1:45 p.m. 9 IT IS STIPULATED AND AGREED that the 10 signature to and reading of the deposition by V 1 1 the witness is waived, the deposition to have 12 the same force and effect as if full 13 compliance were had with all laws and rules of 14 Court relating to the taking of depositions. 1 5 IT IS STIPULATED AND AGREED that it 16 shall not be necessary for any objections to 1 7 be made by counsel to any questions except as 1 8 to form or leading questions and that counsel 1 9 may make objections and assign grounds at the 2 0 time of trial or at the time said deposition 2 1 is offered in evidence or prior thereto. 2 2 IT IS STIPULATED AND AGREED that notice 2 3 of filing by the Commissioner is waived. REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032152 4 1 STATE OF ALABAMA, ANNISTON. JANUARY 3, 2002 2 3 SANDY SMITH, 4 after having been first duly sworn, was 5 examined and testified as follows: 6 7 EXAMINATION 8 BY MR. CUNNINGHAM: 9 Q. Sir, my name is Charlie Cunningham. I'm 1 0 going to ask you some questions today to 1 1 try to find out factual information that 12 you may know that will help the parties 1 3 in a lawsuit that has been filed against 1 4 Monsanto and Solutia here in Calhoun 1 5 County. 1 6 I represent about thirty-five 1 7 hundred folks who have filed that 1 8 lawsuit. Have you ever been deposed 1 9 before? 2 0 A. Yes. 2 1 Q. So you understand that the lady to your 2 2 left needs to take down everything you 2 3 say and needs you to answer with words REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032153 5 1 2 A. 3 Q. 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 A. 18 19 20 21 2 2 Q. 23 rather than nods of the head. Yes. Let me give you a couple of idiosyncrasies about me that you may not have encountered in the previous deposition testimony. First off, I have a bad habit of asking you a question and you'll give me an answer; I'll think you have finished, even though you may not have, and go on to another question. And sometimes I'll have this brilliant idea, and I'll just have to ask another question and will have cut you off. If I do that, let us know because we want you to give a complete answer to everything I ask. Okay? Okay. MR. MYERS: He may have an idea; we will reserve whether it's brilliant or not. He has a lot of ideas. The second thing about me is I have a tendency to ask my questions and it REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC HARTOLDMON0032154 6 1 sounds somewhat like I know what I'm 2 talking about, even though sometimes I 3 don't. So if I say something and it 4 sounds wrong to you, please let us know 5 that. Don't assume that I must know 6 : what happened. Okay? Because what we 7 really want is whatever you know about 8 these facts. And you are nodding your 9 head, and I know you meant to say it. 1 0 And that is okay. 1 1 Tell me first off about your 1 2 previous experiences in deposition. 1 3 Have you done that once or more than 14 once? 1 5 A. Only one time. I really do not remember 1 6 the date, but it was in this room. 1 7 Q. I'm betting it had to do with Monsanto 1 8 and PCBs? 1 9 A. Yes. It was for Monsanto and PCBs. 2 0 Q. I have known of two different cases 2 1 where folks like you have been deposed. 2 2 One was in the insurance litigation, and 2 3 the other had to do with what is called REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032155 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 1 1 A. 12 13 14 Q. 1 5 A. 1 6 Q. 17 18 1 9 A. 2 0 Q. 2 1 A. 2 2 Q. 23 A. the Owens case in federal court that also involved people living around the plant. Do you have any idea which one it was? m sorry t o say I really don't know. MR . MYERS: It was the Owens case. started t o say, i f the 1awye r s were being fairly nice, it was probably Owens. If they were pretty mean to each other, it was probably the insurance. I do know the lawyer wore boots. MR. NEWSOM: That would be Larry Wright. Larry Wright? Larry Wright. Let me start with the easiest one you are going to get all day. That would be your full name, please. Carl Sandy Smith. And what is your address, please? 11 Lincoln ShoresDrive, Talladega. I like the way you say that, Talladega. 3 5 1 6 0. REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032156 8 1 Q. 2 3 A. 4 Q. 5 A. 6 Q. 7 8 A. 9 Q. 1 0 A. 1 1 Q. 12 1 3 A. 14 1 5 Q. 16 1 7 A. 1 8 Q. 19 2 0 A. 2 1 Q. 22 A. 2 3 Q. How long have you lived over in Talladega? Eighteen years. Before that where did you reside? In Saks, just above town. I know where Saks is. How long did you 1ive in Saks ? Nine years. Before that where did you reside? In Winter Haven -- Auburndale, Florida. And I confess; I do not know where Auburndale, Florida is. Right next to Winter Haven, just a suburb of Winter Haven. Which I perceive to be on the gulf coast? Central Florida. Okay. And how long did you live in Florida? Four years. And before that where did you reside? Saks. How long did you live in Saks? REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032157 9 1 A. 2 3 Q 4 A. 5 Q- 6 A. 7 Q 8 A. 9 Q 10 11 A . 12 Q 13 A . 14 Q 15 A. 16 Q 17 A . 18 Q 19 20 A. 21 Q 22 A. 23 Q Since '61, up until that time, 1 6 1 to '70. Okay. Before '61 where did you reside? Birmingham. And how long did you live in Birmingham? '56 to ''61, six years. Okay. And before Birmingham? Rockford, Alabama, from 1940 to 19 5 5. We have to be getting to the day of your birth. That's it. Are you married? Yes, What is your wife's name? Sue . Maiden name ? Hannah. Do you know if she has ever had her PCB level checked? No, she has not. Do you have any children? Yes. What are their names? REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032158 10 1 A. 2 Q. 3 4 A. 5 Q. 6 7 A. 8 9 Q. 1 0 A. 11 Q. 1 2 A. 1 3 Q. 14 1 5 A. 1 6 Q. 17 18 A. 1 9 Q. 20 21 22 23 Robin. Just want the first name? And their last name these days, in case o f daught e rs. Robin Bonner. Any relation to the Hattiesburg, Mississippi: Bonners? No. Traci, T-r-a-c-i, Juhnke, J-u-h-n-k-e. A good German name. A stepson, Dean Carter. Is that it ? Loy, L-o-y, Hislop, H-i-s-l-o-p. Any of them ever I had their PCB level checked? No, no. Any of them ever have problems in school? No . If I ask you for a list of all the adult relatives by blood or marriage that you have who reside in Etowah County and who are not convicted felons and therefore could theorectically show up on a jury REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032159 11 1 2 3 A. 4 5 Q. 6 A. 7 8 Q. 9 10 1 1 A. 1 2 Q. 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 A. 2 1 Q. 22 2 3 A. panel, would that be a big list or a short list? Of the ones that reside in Etowah County? Yes. No relatives that I know of reside there. I guess, in theory, own property in Etowah County or have vehicles registered in Etowah County? No, no one. Before we get too deep into this, I want to converse with you for a moment about anything you may have done to get ready for today. I know you did talk to the lawyers, and obviously, that is appropriate. But other than talking to lawyers, did you have any conversations with anybody else? No . Did you look at anything or read anything before coming over today? I read a note from the Washington Post. REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032160 12 1 Q 2 A. 3 Q. 4 A. 5 Q 6 7 A. 8 Q. 9 A. 10 1 1 Q. 1 2 A. 13 Q. 14 A. 1 5 Q. 16 1 7 A. 1 8 Q. 19 20 21 A. 2 2 Q. 2 3 A. Was that from Tuesday's Washington Post? De c embe r 2 5th, I think. December 2 5 th? Well, I believe that's the date. Was it the one with the story about the PCBs in Anniston? Right. Do you subscribe to the Washington Post? No. My wife showed me the article. She got it at work. Where does she work? At the Anniston Army Depot. What is her jobthere? She is a certified industrial hygienist. Okay. How long has she been engaged in that occupation? Seventeen years. And did she take schooling somewhere, I assume, to become an industrial hygie nis t ? Yes. Where did she get that schooling? University of Hawaii, Austin T, numerous REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032161 1 2 Q. 3 4 A. 5 6 7 Q. 8 A. 9 Q. 10 11 12 13 14 A . 15 Q. 16 17 A. 18 Q 19 20 A. 21 Q 22 23 A. colleges. Did she have a degree conferred by one of them? Yeah. She has two masters degrees, one in environmental health and one in - I'm ashamed to say I can't say it. This is your second wife, I take it? Yes. I was going to say she was commuting from Saks to the University of Hawaii -- Al1 right. And how long has she worked for ANAD? Seventeen years. Okay . Did she work for anybody else as a hygienist before that? No . That was her first employment. Was she married to you when she got that j ob or did y'all -- No . It was after. Did she make any comment to you about the article? No . The only thing she said is there REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032162 14 1 2 3 4 Q. 5 A. 6 Q. 7 8 9 A. 10 1 1 Q. 12 13 A . 14 Q. 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 was an article on the web today about Anniston, PCBs. She brought a copy of it home, and I read it. You don't have that with you? No, no . Did she make any comment:to you about PCBs and your personal exposure historically to PCBs? We do not talk about what she does or what I used todo. That's probably a prudent thing. Okay? Anything else that you looked at? No . I'm going to assume that every answer you give me today is based then on your own independent recollection. If at any point you give me an answer that's based on something you read in this article, that is fine. I'd like to know that too. Just let us know that that is the source. Or if one of my questions reminds you of something that you talked to somebody about at a Christmas party REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032163 15 1 2 3 4 5 6 A. 7 Q. 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 1 5 A. 16 1 7 Q. 18 19 2 0 A. 2 1 Q. 2 2 A. 2 3 Q. recently, and so you are telling me what somebody else recalled, again, that is fine. Love to know it. Just let us know the source if it is other than your own independent recollection. Okay? (Witness nods head affirmatively.) Okay. I understand that you have been identified as a potential witness by Monsanto or Solutia in this case that is going to start trying up in Gadsden on Monday. Do you have any idea what you will be testifying about? MR. MYERS: Object to the form. Go ahead. I would assume it would be my work history at Monsanto and Solutia. Okay. Before we get into that, I want to cover two subjects, first off, your educational background. Just high school. Where did you graduate high school? Phillips High School, inBirmingham. And when was that? REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032164 16 1 A. 2 Q. 3 4 5 6 A. 7 Q. 8 A. 9 1 0 Q. 11 12 A. 13 14 Q. 1 5 A. 16 17 18 19 2 0 Q. 2 1 A. 2 2 Q. 2 3 A. 1 9 5 9. Okay. And let's talk about work you have done other than for Monsanto. When you came out of high school did you go off to work? Yes. : Where did you go? Birmingham Paper Company was my first j ob . And I'm sure it was a lovely job. What did they have you doing? Ever heard of Nifty notebooks? Cutting out notebooks. Just on a paper punch? A big knife,a big machine. That didn't last long. I went to work then with Thompson Tractor Company, which is the Caterpillar dealership for this part of the c ount ry. What did you do for Thompson Tractor? I worked in the parts department. Okay. Next job after that? Monsanto. REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032165 17 1 Q. 2 A. 3 Q. 4 5 6 A. 7 Q. 8 9 A. 1 0 Q. 11 12 A. 13 14 15 16 17 18 1 9 Q. 20 2 1 A. 22 23 When would that have been? 1966 to 1970. Okay. Now, let me back up a minute or so. You were -- Were you at Birmingham Paper -- how long? Oh, it was just a small tenure there. So you were at Thompson Tractor for about six or seven years? Right. Okay. After your tenure with Monsanto in 1970, where did you go? Got laid off at Monsanto and moved to Florida. That is when I moved to Florida. And I worked for Santa Fe Equipment Company because of my experience that I had acquired working with Thompson Tractor. These are heavy equipment dealers. So you were still in the parts department ? Well, in both parts and sales, the latter in sales, the last two years in sales. REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032166 1 Q. 2 3 A. 4 5 6 7 Q- 8 A. 9 Q 10 A. 11 12 Q 1 3 A. 1 4 Q. 1 5 A. 16 1 7 Q. 1 8 A. 19 2 0 Q. 21 22 23 Okay. And then what about after you returned - - In 1970 -- I came back to Monsanto in 1974, had an opportunity to come back at that particular time and was there until December of 1997. : And a t that point you retired? Retired Okay. How i s your health, Mr. Smith? I think it i s okay. I have had back surgery since I retired. Was t hi s a ruptured disk? Yes, ruptured disk. Did you have a complete diskectomy? Just a shaving. And a knee operation, cartilage, torn cartilage in the knee. Old football injury? I don't really know what it is. I played a little football. You look like a big boy. I figure down here any big boys get thrown the pigskin. Have you ever had cancer? REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032167 19 1 A. 2 Q. 3 A. 4 Q. 5 A. 6 Q. 7 A. 8 Q. 9 A. 1 0 Q. 11 12 A. 1 3 Q. 14 A . 15 Q. 16 1 7 A. 18 19 20 21 22 2 3 Q. No . Do you consumealcoholic beverages? No . Tobacco products? No . Ever done either? I have smoked. When did you quit? I quit somewhere around 1980. Was there any particular event that caused that to happen? Well, I just knew it was bad for you. Ever served in themilitary? No . Do you receive any sort of pension from Monsanto ? Well, yeah, actually. It was a rollover from what they called a savings and investment plan over the years, plus a retirement plan where you could receive monthly annuities or a lump sum. And I chose a lump sum. Okay. And do you receive subsidized REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032168 1 2 3 A. 4 5 6 Q. 7 8 A. 9 1 0 Q. 11 12 A. 1 3 Q. 14 A. 15 16 17 18 19 20 Q 21 A. 22 23 Q health benefits, health insurance and dental insurance? Yes. No dental. Once you retire, there is no dental. Now, we do pay part of thepremiums for the insurance. And that fraction is probably going up every year, I guess? Yes. As a matter of fact, it has tripled since retirement. Were you ever a member of the International Chemical Workers Union? Yes. What years? Well, from the first four years, from ' 6 6 to '70, then from '74 to '80, and then f r om ' 8 8 to ' 95 , I believe. At that time, those were the time s I was in the bargaining unit. The other times from - - '88? From '88 to 1 9 5 I was in supervision, and '95 to '97 I was in supervision. Okay . And we'll come in a moment to the REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032169 21 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 A. 8 Q. 9 A. 1 0 Q. 1 1 A. 12 Q. 13 14 A. 1 5 Q. 16 17 1 8 A. 1 9 Q. 20 A. 2 1 Q. 22 23 different jobs, because I'm not used to people going into the bargaining unit, coming out, and going back in. That is a new one on me. Did you ever hold any positions with the national? National union? No. Any positions with the local? Yes. What sort of positions? Vice president. When were you vice president of the local? Just pick a decade. It would have been in the '70s. What sort of responsibilities does the vice president have of that -- did the vice president have of the local union? Very little . And any other positions? No . Did you receive any sort of routine medical care while you were employed with Monsanto? REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032170 22 1A 2 3Q 4 5A 6Q 7 8A 9Q 10 A 11 12 13 Q 14 15 16 A 17 Q 18 19 A 20 21 22 23 We received -- YYeess.. We received blood work. We had routine blood work we did. And how often do you recall that that blood was drawn? I believe it was every six weeks. Now, was that drawn by the nurse there at the plant? Yes. And do you know where that gotanalyzed? My assumption was that it was sent off to a laboratory. I do not know for sure . You never saw a piece of paper with the result that might have said on it what lab had looked at it? No, not that I recall. Do you recall what sort of parameters they were looking at in your blood? Well, I know -- They set up a standard on your cholinesterase level, and then they continued to monitor it each six weeks as to where it was in this particular standard. But I do not know REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC HARTOLDMON0032171 1 2 Q. 3 4 5 A. 6 Q. 7 A. 8 Q. 9 10 11 A. 12 Q. 13 14 A. 1 5 Q. 16 1 7 A. 18 19 20 21 2 2 Q. 23 the exact. So in other words, before you started in the Niran department, they did a baseline - A baseline, yes. -- cholinesterase? Right. And they would every six weeks draw some blood and see that it wasn't dropping too low? Correct. Any other kinds of routine examination, tests? Yearly physicals. Okay. What do youremember them doing in this annual physical examination? It was hearing, your sight, chest x-ray, prostate check. And in the latter years, after the PSA became an item, that was checked, and also your blood work, your cholesterol. I assume there was a bit of a history taken? REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032172 24 1A 2Q 3 4 5A 6 7 8 9 10 Q 11 A 12 Q 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 Q Yes, yes. And who do you recall dealing with when you would go through those annual examinations? The first doctor was Dr. Francis, and the second doctor was Dr. Gehi. And then the nurse. We always called her Nurse Good Body -- I can't -- Nurse Sheppard. Do I need to meet Nurse Good Body? No, no. Do you ever recall learning anything from any of those -- apparently you would have gone through quite a few of those if you had them every year - about your health circumstances that stands out in your mind? Basically the ones that I recall have been, like, cholesterol and Seems to draw attention -- Those were out of line. Not every time but some of them. High, las sume ? REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC HARTOLDMON0032173 25 1 A. 2 Q 3 4 A. 5 6 7 Q 8 9 A. 10 Q 11 A. 12 Q 13 14 A. 15 Q . 16 17 A. 18 Q 19 20 21 22 23 A. High. Yes. Did you take any steps to try to address that? Yes. Go to another doctor, which the other doctor was Dr. Gehi. And he would give you something to take. So you are actually on medication for that? I'm on medication for cholesterol. Take a statin drug? Zocor . Did any of that cost you any money, the examinations that took place? No . Did you always avail yourself of that opportunity? Yes. Do you still have folks who work there at Monsanto who you would consider friends and acquaintances, that you would know on a first-name basis if you saw them on the street? Yes. REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032174 26 1 Q. 2 3 A. 4 5 6 7 Q. 8 9 A. 1 0 Q. 11 12 A. 13 14 Q. 15 1 6 A. 1 7 Q. 18 19 20 2 1 A. 22 2 3 Q. Would you say that you have got a handful, couple of dozen, a hundred? Just a handful now because a lot retired. Folks about my age are just not there anymore. A lot of new people I don't know. Do you get that newsletter, the Bama Briefs? Yes. And I understand that V. quarterly? comes out roughly Yes. Supposed to be quarterly, but I'm not sure it makes it every quarter. Do you read that pretty routinely when it comes? I read it, ye s. Do you ever remember reading anything in there about the PCB situation? MR. MYERS: Object to the form. You can answer. I don't really remember anything in it about the PCB s . No one else has either, but I keep REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032175 1 2 3 4 5 6 A. 7 8 9 1 0 Q. 1 1 A. 12 1 3 Q. 14 1 5 A. 16 1 7 Q. 1 8 A. 1 9 Q. 2 0 A. 21 2 2 Q. 23 asking. All right. Let's talk about what you did a t Monsanto. Would you tell me please the first job you had the day you showed up there? What was your title? When I hired in in October of 1966, the only way to could get a job, an hourly job, you had to start off in the labor group. Okay. Which consisted of -- I remember the first day very well. Tell me what you did your first day as a 1aborer. Shoveling gravel, spreading gravel in the yard. Now, when you say in the yard - Anywhere in just -- We have talked about a limestone pit - No. I know what you are talking about. That is not that. Just the little gravel that theyhave out there generally? REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032176 28 1 A '. 2 3 4 Q. 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 A. 1 1 Q. 12 1 3 A. 14 15 1 6 Q. 17 18 1 9 A. 20 21 2 2 Q. 23 Correct. In places where you couldn't spread it with a machine, maintain the yards. Now, did you ever pick some of this gravel up? I assume it wasn't flying away. They had put some down long before you got there. Did stuff get spilled and have to be picked up and hauled off and fresh put back down? Sometimes, yes. I assume when you came in as a laborer you worked in no particular department? No particular department, what they called the maintenance department, maintenance laborer. Any other particular task that you remember doing with some regularity as a 1aborer ? We tightened the railroad spikes pretty regular when we ran out of something to do . Now, I worked on the railroad one time. We had to drive spikes with a spiking REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032177 29 1 2 3 A. 4 Q. 5 6 , 7 A. 8 9 1 0 Q. 11 12 13 14 A. 1 5 Q. 1 6 A. 17 1 8 Q. 1 9 A. 2 0 Q. 21 2 2 A. 2 3 Q. maul. I know over in Europe they use screws. We used the old maul. Okay. I hope you were better at it than I was. Anything else that stands out in your mind? Notreally. That was -- That job lasted I think about five months before there came an opening in the operations end. And none of that required you to have any particular knowledge of anything except how to hold a shovel or hold a spiking maul, basically? In the laborer, correct. What was the next job you had then? In operations, what they a chemical operator. You were an operator? Right. That would have been roughly when that you started that? Oh, in '67. Okay. And I'm assuming you made that REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032178 30 1 2 3 A. 4 Q. 5 A. 6 Q. 7 8 A. 9 Q. 10 1 1 A. 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2 0 Q. 21 22 23 move because it was a move up in terms of pay? Correct. A promotion, if you will? Yes. Was there a particular department you worked in? Parathion. Tell me what you did as a parathion operator starting in 1967. In 1967 the parathion department was the manufacturer of parathion, which is a cotton poison. You did various and sundry things, which you had to learn the jobs as they were set up as you started this job and then you learned it. And then when an opening came, you kind of had a sequence as to the jobs you moved up through. And I assume there was a goal there of -- one of the folks used the term "cross training" to try and get you to learn as much as you could about the various REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032179 1 2 A. 3 4 5 6 7 8 Q. 9 A. 10 11 12 Q. 13 14 15 16 17 18 1 9 A. 20 21 22 23 tasks ? Correct. The reason you would like to learn more, most of the jobs, is because you had an opportunity to make more money on overtime or when something came up on one of the other jobs, to fill in when somebody was sick or whatever. Okay. And some jobs are a little bit easier than other jobs. You want to get that top job up there. I'm sure. Let me talk to you for a moment about wastes that might have been generated in the parathion department. Did you ever in your tenure in that department have reason to work with, dispose of, or collect wastes that were generated in that department? The byproduct -- Well, the wastes off of the parathion products was -- went through the waste treatment plant, the waste treatment plant or running the waste treatment and soda ash -- They had REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032180 1 2 3 4 Q. 5 6 A. 7 Q. 8 9 A. 1 0 Q. 11 12 13 14 A. 15 1 6 Q. 17 18 1 9 A. 2 0 Q. 21 22 23 it in two combined, was a job. You monitored the waste treatment plant and soda ash part of the job. Was that a job that was handled by the parathion department? At that particular time, yes. So you rotated through there on occasion and did that task? Yes, yes. When you say the waste treatment plant, you are talking about the long metal basins that were full of fluid in the back? They were not metal. They were concre t e. Okay. See what I said; I'll say it like I know what I'm talking about and I really don't. They were all concrete. In that process you had to make sure you had the right mix of bacteria and waste and before it got released they had time to do their work and so forth? REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032181 33 1 A. 2 3 4 5 Q. : 6 A. 7 Q. 8 9 10 11 A . 12 Q. 13 14 1 5 A. 1 6 Q. 17 1 8 A. 19 20 2 1 Q. 22 23 A. You monitored your bugs, so to speak, which is your bacteria. You took samples, made sure the samples were okay . Did you actually analyze those samples? No, take them to the lab. I have some understanding that there was another means of disposing of some of the waste coming off the Niran department, and that was an incinerator? Yes. Did you ever have any role with operating that particular piece of equipment ? Not -- No. I never did operate that. Can you tell me what went to the It was mostly sulfur, what we called residue. That is what we called re sidue. Would the incinerator just turn that to sulfur dioxide? Yes. REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032182 34 1 Q. 2 3 4 A. 5 Q. 6 7 8 A. 9 10 11 12 13 1 4 Q. 15 16 17 A. 18 Q 19 A. 20 Q. 21 22 A. 23 That would be a pretty smelly stack gas. Did you ever have occasion to smell a sulfurous - - Oh, yeah, yeah. But that wasn't part of your bailiwick in the parathion department to operate that? Well, the incinerator was always run by the chief operator. You ran every other thing up to that particular item. So you pumped out the residue to a tank, and he ran the incinerator according to what level was needed to be. Do you know why they would only let the chief operator run that incinerator? MR. MYERS: Object to the form. It was just - - Don 1 t know ? No . Okay . Let's go to the next job you had an as an emp1oye e of Monsanto. Chief operator. The plant was expanded in 1 7 8 . We added on another control REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032183 35 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 A 11 Q 12 13 A 14 Q 15 16 A 17 Q 18 19 A 20 Q 21 A 22 Q 23 room and went into what they call a recycle where we did not burn that product anymore that we were talking about. We recycled it. Let me stop you for a moment. You worked for Monsanto from '66 to '70. And I take it that when you got laid off in '70, you were still an operator in the parathion department? Correct. Then you came back in '74 as an operator? As an operator. In parathion. So when was it that you became a chief operator? I believe it was '78. Okay. And that was a promotion obvious1y? Correct. Was that still in parathion? Recycle? What we called the recycle department. And there you were taking that sulfur product -- or waste stream and reworking REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032184 36 1 2 A. 3 Q 4 A. 5 Q 6 7 8 9 A. 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 1 7 Q. 18 19 A . 2 0 Q. 21 22 23 it - - Rework!ng i t . - - so you d i dn 11 t have to incinerate2 it? Correct . Do you know as we sit here today, mechanically or chemically, exactly what happened with that stuff in the recycle department? If you had asked me four years ago, I would have told you every step. But it was what they called centrifuged and separated out and you reused both liquid and solid. The sulfur went back to the P 2 S 5 department, and the liquid was used as an infiltrate back in the upper stream in the parathion. Okay. So that was yet a new pollution control technology that they used? Correct . We mentioned the incineration; you mentioned the biological treatment. And then here they were implementing a recycle program. REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032185 37 1A 2Q 3A 4 5 6 7 8A 9Q 10 A 11 Q 12 13 A 14 Q 15 16 17 18 19 Q 20 21 22 23 Q Correct. Okay. What's the next task? It was foreman or first level supervisor from 1980 to -- Well, actually '87, somewhere in that area. Again, I presume you made that switch voluntarily and it was a promotion? It was a promotion. Did that get you off the shift work? Yes. And was there a particular department that you were foreman over? Recycle. Okay. Same kind of responsibilities but more managerial? More managerial. Had twenty-three - you were the foreman over all the operators and the chief operators. Say it was about twenty-three people under you? I think it was about twenty-three at the t i me . Did you have any particular REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC HARTOLDMON0032186 38 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 A. 8 Q. 9 10 11 12 13 A. 14 Q. 15 16 17 18 1 9 A. 2 0 Q. 21 22 23 responsibility in your tenure as a chief operator and as a foreman for ensuring that the people working under you complied with the health and safety guidelines that were in place there at the company? Ab solutely. If you found somebody that was ignoring the requirements with regard to their personal protective equipment, I presume that you took it upon yourself to point that out and correct it? Yes. If you caughtsomebody doing something that would create an unnecessary exposure to a physical or chemical hazard, you would take steps to remedy that? Absolutely. And if you foundout, hadknowledge, that somebody was doing something that created a danger to people there in the plant or neighbors, you would take REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032187 39 1 2 A. 3 Q. 4 5 6 7 8 A. 9 1 0 Q. 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 2 3 A. active measures to change that? Absolutely. I had talked to one of your colleagues earlier today who was a safety supervisor about that time. Do you remember who was safety supervisor in the '80s? Was it Joe Mundy or Ed Mundy, something -- Ed, Joseph Edward Mundy. And he -- I said to him, what would you do if a worker had come to you and said, "Is this stuff I am working around dangerous?" And the first thing he said he would do would be to tell them to go talk to their foreman. Was that one of the other things you recall doing from time to time, if one of the people came to you and said, "What is the scoop on this stuff we are working on? Tell me what it does to people," or whatever, did you do that ? Yes. Involved in the training and REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032188 1 2 Q. 3 4 5 6 A. 7 Q. 8 9 10 A. 1 1 Q. 12 1 3 A. 14 15 16 17 Q 18 A. 1 9 Q. 20 21 A. 2 2 Q. 23 involved in telling of the dangers. And I take it back when you were work that biological treatment facility, you took that responsibility serious; you felt that was an important task? Yes. : Would the same be true when you became chief operator and working with the recycle department? Yes. Now, after you -- what's the next job you held after you were foreman? I was made what they call a project specialist. I was responsible for the demolition, the decontamination and the demolition of the parathion department. Was that i n 1 9 8 7 ? That wa s i n 1 9 8 7. Okay. We are still not back in the union yet? No . So you were decontaminating and decommissioning the breaking down of the REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032189 1 2 A. 3 Q. 4 5 6 A. 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 Q . 1 6 A. 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 parathion? Correct. Okay. And tell me what that entailed. What were you doing as a practical matter? Well, first of all, I had to recommend a group of people for the demolition team to hire that was knowledgeable as much as they could be of the plant and knowing the safety rules and regulations of the plant. But these people came mostly from a group of people that had been laid off due to the shutting down of the parathion. I see . We hadexperienced people to pull from to work for this contractor. And we blew all the lines. We ran everything through waste treatment and then physically took the lines down, decontaminated them, soda ash or whatever it took to decontaminate. And thenit was cut up or hauled off or -- REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032190 42 1 Q. 2 3 A. 4 Q. 5 6 7 8 9 A. 10 1 1 Q. 12 13 14 15 A. 1 6 Q. 1 7 A. 18 1 9 Q. 20 2 1 A. 22 2 3 Q. And you took that task seriously, as we 11, I presume ? Yes, Was there any doubt in your mind that the material that might have been found in that piping, those pieces of equipment, had the potential to be harmful to humans? Yes. I knew they had the potential to be harmful. You certainly wouldn't have simply cut that stuff up and set it up in a landfill where anybody could come around it ? No . How longdid that joblast? It was right at two years. I really don't remember the exact dates. Okay. What's the next task that you did? Back in operation. Well, I mean back into the bargaining group. I am supposing there was no recycle REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032191 43 1 2 A. 3 4 5 6 7 Q. 8 9 1 0 A. 11 12 Q. 13 14 A. 15 1 6 Q. 17 18 1 9 A. 20 21 2 2 Q. 23 A. department to go back to, as well? It was also decontaminated and demolished too. Recycle was part of parathion. It was just called recycle because of the control room. All that was wiped out. : So you were able to assert enough seniority to go back into the bargaining unit? Yeah. Me and one other. Unfortunately he passed away with a heart attack. And you went back in just as an operator? Just as an operator. Low man on the seniority list, I might add. And I'm sure they treated you very pleasantly as the low man coming back down from management? I really didn't have a problem. I think maybe one or two of them had a problem, but I didn't have a problem with it. That would have been roughly 1988? Corre c t. REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032192 44 1 Q. 2 A. 3 Q. 4 5 A. 6 7 Q. 8 A. 9 1 0 Q. 11 12 13 14 A. 1 5 Q. 1 6 A. 17 1 8 Q. 19 20 21 2 2 A. 2 3 Q. And what particular department - That was in the PNP department. Did you have any particular station that you worked at as an operator in PNP? Well, at that time there were only two jobs. You ran them both, really. What were those? And waste treatment was part of one of those jobs. I think a fellow told me this morning that it was -- the waste treatment was one job and basically running the reactor was the other? Reactor, right. And you did both of those? At different times. You know, we swapped about. And again, I take it you took your responsibilities for ensuring that the waste treatment in that process was performed appropriately? (Witness nods head affirmatively.) Was there any doubt in your mind that if REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032193 45 1 2 3 4 5 A. 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 1 6 Q. 17 18 19 20 2 1 A. 2 2 Q. 23 you didn't correctly operate that waste treatment facility that something bad could happen to someone or something down stream? I think we considered that one of the most important jobs in the plant because of the potential that you could have a spill or something like that. And you didn't want that to happen. We have shut the plant down numerous times. If you have something up here that gets a little out of control, you have to get it under control. You just don't want to dump the waste treatment, in other words, is what I'm saying. So there was authority -- If the waste treatment facility was not able to handle, at that particular point in time, additional inflow, you could go up the line and basically stop production? Oh, yes. Okay. And I take it PNP is not particularly nasty all by itself. That REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032194 1 2 A. 3 Q. 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 1 1 Q. 12 A. 1 3 Q. 14 A. 15 16 1 7 Q. 1 8 A. 1 9 Q. 2 0 A. 2 1 Q. 22 23 goes into Tylenol, doesn't it? Yes. But there was something about the waste that had to be treated be f ore you can turn it loose? It was mostly just the color is what PNP would cause; it is not toxic. It was a color criteria that we had to mee t . Of course, all the other things too. But that was the main thing in PNP. It came out pretty yellow, didn't it? Right, pretty yellow. What's the next job you had? Okay. The next job was the supervisor of that part of the plant, PNP s up e rvis o r. Is that similar to foreman? Yes . ' And when would you have started that? I believe it was -- I think it was '95. And that would have been a promotion. That would explain -- You would obviously welcome the opportunity -- REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032195 47 1 A. 2 Q. 3 4 5 6 A. 7 Q. 8 9 A. 1 0 Q. 11 A. 12 Q. 1 3 A. 14 1 5 Q. 16 17 A. 1 8 Q. 19 A. 2 0 Q. 21 22 2 3 A. Correct. And that was the same department, PNP. And I take it your responsibilities were similar to the kinds of things you talked about when you were foreman? Right . : Overseeing people, making sure the rules got followed? Yes. Keep your production on track? Production. Quality control. Make the schedule, quality control, implement new changes, whatever. And were you a supervisor in PNP when you retired in '87? Yes. So that is the last position you held? Correct. Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see anywhere where you were working in the Aroclor department. Never worked in Aroclor. REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032196 48 1 Q. 2 3 A. 4 Q. 5 6 7 8 A. 9 10 1 1 Q. 12 13 14 15 16 17 1 8 A. 19 20 21 2 2 Q. 2 3 A. But I bet if you had, you would have done very well at it, right? I'm sure I would. Have been extremely conscientious. Is it fair to say that most of the folks who worked at that plant were pretty : I'm very proud of my association with all of those guys. I think we were all responsible operators. I can't profess to know all the folks who were plant managers, but I have heard about several. I don't recall ever hearing about the top guy having coming up from within there at Anniston. It seems like it is always somebody who was bought in from outside. The very top guy always was, as best as I can recall. Now, there were promotions from within, but I don't think ever the -- To the top position? The plant manager. REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032197 49 1 Q. 2 3 4 A. 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 Right. What opportunity or occasion did you have to physically come in contact with PCB, Aroclor, or Montars? During my tenure as a parathion operator, there was a couple of summers -- I think summers -- that due to cutbacks in the department I was cut back to what they call shipping leader. At that time we had a maintenance leader and a shipping leader, which is no longer, but during that cutback time. You got cut back because of lack of seniority. That is what it was determined by when you were in the unit. My contact with PCBs is that I would go -- we had what we called a mule, that had some little wagons behind it that would hold four drums per wagon. I think we had four wagons, with this old airport mule they had bought. You could go to the department where it was manufactured, get on a forklift, and load the drums on the wagon and drive REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032198 50 1 2 3 Q. 4 A. 5 Q. 6 7 A. 8 Q. 9 A. 1 0 Q. 11 12 A. 1 3 Q. 14 15 A. 1 6 Q. 17 18 1 9 A. 20 21 2 2 Q. 23 them across the plant and store them in the warehouse. So that would be sixteendrums? Sixteen to twenty. On this train, if you will, pulled by this mule ? Right, right. Looked like a little diesel - Right. Gas engine. Like they haul baggage with from an airplane? Right. But I assume when you picked these things up, these drums were sealed? Yes. So in theory your exposure would be if anything was spilled on it and you happened to be handling it? There was nothing spilled. It had to be cleaned up before we left the department. So your exposure, then, would just be consistent with breathing the fumes when REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032199 51 1 2 3 A. 4 Q. 5 A. 6 7 8 9 10 11 Q. 12 13 14 1 5 A. 1 6 Q. 17 18 1 9 A. 2 0 Q. 21 22 A. 2 3 Q. you went over there to pick them up, if there were fumes there? Right. But - - It reallywasn't any. Where it was drummed out was under the building. But where they could set them out, they would set them out on the docks, and I would pick them up, drive over to the other place and unload them. Okay. Got you. And so if I asked you about personal protective equipment you might have worn to avoid exposure to Aroclors, you never did - Not to Aroclor. I presume you had personal protective equipment to protect you when you were working with parathion? Ab solutely. And even when you were in the PNP depart me nt ? Yes. And the recycledepartment? REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032200 1 A. 2 Q 3 A. 4 Q 5 6 7 8 A. 9 10 11 12 13 1 4 Q. 1 5 A. 16 17 1 8 Q. 19 20 21 22 23 Yes. And ventilation as well? Yes. Did you ever know anything about the toxicity or the health dangers of Aroclor or PCB or Montars? MR. MYERS: Object to the form. Not really, no. You were always told don't come in contact with products. Having worked in the parathion department, you didn't want to touch anything anyway. It was just your instinct. You got in a habit of not touching - Habit of not messing with the product. I mean, we all knew that it wasn't chocolate milk, you know. Well, you hear people talking about, well, I used to work in that stuff, and I would have it on my hands, up to my elbows, and my clothes would get soaked in it. You didn't do that working on parathion, I am sure? REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032201 53 1 A. 2 Q. 3 4 5 6 A. 7 8 9 10 11 12 1 3 Q. 14 15 1 6 A. 1 7 Q. 1 8 A. 1 9 Q. 20 21 22 23 You would be dead in an hour. Okay. Did you ever have occasion to personally examine the condition of the ditches that left the plant, the drainage? Not as an official of the plant. I mean, we were all in the areas of the ditches. And I mean, we knew where the ditches were. But as far as -- Are you talking about in the plant -- Nothing outside the plant. Nobody went to outside the plant. Well, I mean, somebody would have observed what it looked like as it left the plant, I assume? Right. But that wasn't everpart of your task? Not none of my task. Okay. You might havewalked by on occasion but wouldn't have been something you would have paid any attention to particularly? MR. MYERS: Object to the form. REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032202 54 1 A. 2 3 4 5 Q. 6 7 A. 8 9 10 1 1 Q. 12 A. 1 3 Q. 14 15 1 6 A. 17 1 8 Q. 19 20 21 22 23 Well, most of us as we left the plant, we went by where the stream from that particular part of the plant came and went under the road. That is over there by the limestone pit that you referenced - No. That's a totally different stream. I'm talking about the one that was on the old 202, right there in front of the plant, which is no longer there now. That is now Clydesdale? Correct. Well -- and I think I know the confusion. There was a limestone pit that went north out of the plant? Right. That was part of the waste treatment. Right. To neutralize the stuff as it came out of there. Maybe you didn't realize this. But did you understand that there was also a limestone pit that the east ditch running out of the plant also went through? REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032203 55 1 A. 2 3 4 5 6 7 Q. 8 9 A. 1 0 Q. 11 12 13 14 A. 15 1 6 Q. 17 18 19 2 0 A. 21 2 2 Q. 23 Right. You had your limestone put, and then had a dam type contraption here, t ank, pit, and then the overflow off that overflowed. And you could see it. I mean, it was very evident. It went under the road in a culvert. Headed into a residential neighborhood? MR. MYERS: Object to the form. East of the plant. Did you ever have any understanding or hear anything about what the nature of the waste water was in that ditch as it left the plant? Not that I recall. I don't -- I was not interested in that part of the plant. Okay. If I suggested to you that Mr. Papageorge, who was a former plant manager -- Does that name mean anything to you ? I remember. He was there when I first came, I believe. That's about right, maybe might have come a couple -- When did he start? REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032204 56 1 A. 2 Q. 3 A. 4 Q. 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 A. 12 Q . 13 A . 14 Q. 15 16 A. 1 7 Q. 18 19 2 0 A. 2 1 Q. 22 23 A. '66? That's about when he came. He was there at one time. I guess he -- If he had testified in this case under oath that when he got there he was warned not to put his foot in that ditch because it would take the skin clean off, or words to that effect, did you ever hear anything like that? MR. MYERS: Object to the form. No . No? No . Everhave any occasion to observe Snow Creek back in the 1960s? Yes . What do you recall noticing, if anything, about the condition of Snow Creek in the '60s? It being red. Red? Do you know the source of the red color? No . REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032205 57 1 Q. 2 A. 3 4 5 Q. 6 A. 7 Q. 8 9 A. 10 11 Q. 12 13 A. 14 Q. 1 5 A. 1 6 Q. 17 1 8 A. 1 9 Q. 20 2 1 A. 2 2 Q. 23 Where would you have observed this? Right there on the -- on the old 202 as it goes by the railroad track down there. That would be -- On your way out? Out of the plant, yeah. Was that on one or many occasions or a few? I remember it more than once. I don't remember how many times. Have you ever had occasion to see Choccolocco Creek? Then? Yes. I have fished in Choccolocco Creek. When did you fishin Choccolocco Creek? Pick a decade. In the '60s and '70s and '80s,'90s. Okay. So that is something you have done commonly over the years? Right. Whereabouts on Choccolocco Creek would you fish. REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032206 58 1 A. 2 Q. 3 A. 4 Q. 5 A. 6 7 Q. 8 9 1 0 A. 1 1 Q. 12 13 A . 14 Q. 1 5 A. 16 17 1 8 Q. 19 20 A. 2 1 Q. 22 23 A. I live on Choccolocco Creek. Okay. Out my front door. Okay. Before that at various places on 77 highway. Let me break it down in one simple parameter. Upstream or downstream of the confluence with Snow Creek? It is downstream. So where you live in Talladega, which is clearly downstream form Snow Creek - Yes. -- it goes by your front? Yes. It's a Talladega address in the city limits of Lincoln, if that makes any sense. Have you ever heard of the fish advisory withrespect toChoccolocco Creek? Yes. Do you still fish itsubsequent to learning of the advisory? Yes. REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032207 59 1 Q. 2 A. 3 4 Q. 5 6 A. 7 Q. 8 9 A. 1 0 Q. 11 12 13 14 1 5 A. 1'6 1 7 Q. 18 1 9 A. 20 21 22 23 Still eat the fish you catch? I have not, but I would. I would not be afraid to eat the fish. So you still fish it, but you just haven't bothered to eat them? Right. You bought the property in Talladega eighteen years ago? I think '83. I take it atthat time -- Didyou have any knowledge that the creek or its sediments might be contaminated with PCBs ? MR. MYERS: Object to the form. I had knowledgeof people claiming that it was contaminated with PCBs. Who did you understand to be making those assertions? Because of being on Snow Creek, which runs into Choccolocco Creek, there are numerous industries that dump into there. I didn't on a personal basis - I did not think it was dangerous. REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032208 60 1 2 3 4 5 Q. 6 A. 7 8 9 10 1 1 Q. 12 13 14 1 5 A. 16 17 Q 18 19 A. 20 Q. 21 22 A. 23 Q Choccolocco Creek was not dangerous. I have swam in it, fished in it, ate fish out of it. I had no problem with moving down there on Choccolocco Creek. Obviously. I would run the waste treatment plant for eight hours and go home and fish for eight hours in the same water that had been emitted to the creek. And I had no problem. I understand that. My question was directed to who was it that you understood had asserted or alleged there might be PCBs - You would read it in the newspapers. That would be the only thing. Okay. Have you ever had your land tested for PCBs ? No . Do you own acreage that actually abuts the stream? About five hundred foot. Okay. Has anyone talked to you about REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032209 1 2 3 A. 4 Q. 5 A. 6 Q. 7 8 9 10 A. 11 Q. 12 A . 13 Q. 14 A . 1 5 Q. 16 1 7 A. 1 8 Q. 19 A. 2 0 Q. 2 1 A. 2 2 Q. 23 this Choccolocco Creek conservation corridor? No . Ever heard or it? Just from you. No one has ever come to you and tried to get you to take some money to agree not to use your land except for certain ways? No . Do you have grandchildren? Five. Do they ever come over and visit? Yes. Do you let them go out and play in the yard? Yes. You let them go play in the creek? Yes. Don't have any concerns about that? None whatsoever, other than drowning. Is that because you don't think there are any PCBs there, or you don't think REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032210 62 1 2 A. 3 4 5 Q. 6 A. 7 8 9 10 11 Q. 12 13 14 A. 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 2 2 Q. 23 A. PCBs can hurt them? I don't think -- If there is PCBs, I don't think there is enough PCBs there to hurt anyone. And you base that on what? I don't -- It hasn't been proven to me that PCBs are dangerous. I haven't seen it. I don't know that it has ever been proven that PCBs are dangerous to humans. So you think the state was foolish for putting the advisory on the creek? MR. MYERS: Object to the form. I would think that if the state wanted to check fish for gas and oil out of outboard engines, they would find that that was polluted also. But that happens not to be in the criteria of a suspected carcinogenic. I think it is arbitrary when they come to get PCBs and decide it is a dangerous product. Okay. I'm sorry. Did I cut you off? No . REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032211 63 1 Q. 2 3 4 5 A. 6 Q. 7 8 A. 9 Q. 10 11 12 1 3 A. 14 Q. 15 A. 1 6 Q. 17 18 19 2 0 A. 21 2 2 Q. 23 So again, you don't think it makes any sense to warn people not to eat fish out of Choccolocco Creek? MR. MYERS:object to the form. No . No, in the sense that you agree with me, that that doesn't make sense to you? What, now? I wasn't -- When you said no, I wasn't sure what you meant. You know that the state has posted an advisory for that s t ream? Right. Because ofPCB found in fish? Correct. Do you believe that tobe a prudent thing for the state to do, or do you believe that to be something they ought not to have done? I don't think itis something they should have done. And that is because you don 1 t think PCBs have been proven to cause problems for REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032212 64 1 2 3 A. 4 Q. 5 6 7 8 9 10 A. 11 Q 12 A . 13 Q 14 15 A. 16 Q 17 1 8 A. 1 9 Q. 2 0 A. 21 22 23 people? MR. MYERS: Object to the form. Correct. Did you ever participate in a study or investigation on the health status or mortality status of the work force at the Anniston plant that had worked with Aroclors? MR . MYERS : Obj ect to the form. No . Not that you know of? Not that I know of. Did you ever visit the Krummrich plant i n S auge t , Illinois? Yes What was the purpose for your going there ? I'm trying to remember. I don't think they made parathion there. No. They didn't make parathion. They made -- I think it was on an inspection tour, on a housekeeping inspection tour. I had gone to different plants, REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032213 1 Monsanto's plants. 2 Q. But if I wanted to talk to you about how 3 they made Aroclor there versus here and 4 how they handled Aroclor waste there 5 versus here, would you have any idea - 6 A. : Don't have any knowledge whatsoever. 1 Q. Have you ever had your blood tested for 8 PCBs ? 9 A. No . 1 0 Q. Have you ever mentioned to a doctor when 11 you have gone to see him about the fact 12 you worked at the place where PCBs were 1 3 made ? 14 A . No . 1 5 Q. Ever have occasion to observe with your 1 6 own eyes the condition and operation of 1 7 the dumps there at the Monsanto 1 8 facility? 1 9 A. You mean the landfills? 2 0 Q. If that is a word you are more 2 1 comfortable with, sure. 22 A. Yes. 2 3 Q. What took you to the landfill and what REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032214 66 1 2 A. 3 4 5 6 Q. 7 8 A. 9 10 11 12 1 3 Q. 14 A. 15 16 17 18 1 9 Q. 20 2 1 A. 22 23 did you see? Back in the days where I was talking about that I would be cut back a time or two, we would carry waste to the landfill. What sort of waste do you recall taking up there? One of it would be where we cleaned the filters at the parathion department. It was a powdered substance. I can't think of the name of it right now, Seallite, Seallite . Okay. That we would put in the drum and carry up there. And some waste from the Aroclor department. I think some of it consisted of Montar that you mentioned while ago. In what form was the Montar when you hauled it up there? As best as I could determine, it was solid, in solid form. It set up as hard as this table here. REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032215 67 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8Q 9 10 A 11 Q 12 13 14 15 A 16 Q 17 18 19 20 21 22 A 23 Q And dump it into this -- what was the condition - It was a huge hole. As a matter of fact, I think -- Well, I only remember one hole. I don't remember other cells being in there. Later on they did make other cells. You were there a fairly narrow time frame in the mid '60s, I take it? Right. Very few trips I made up there. And I assume when you would dump in this hole, you would see a lot more of that stuff on the ground - MR. MYERS: Object to the form. There would be some. I'm sorry. Again, if I say something that is not true, by all means, you let me know that wasn't the case. But you would see some of it already up there. You weren't the first guy to take some up. No, no. And any feel at all for how much of this REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC HARTOLDMON0032216 68 1 2 A. Q. 4 5 6 A. 7 Q. 8 9 A. 1 0 Q. 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 1 8 A. 19 20 21 22 23 stuff was up there? I have no idea. And at any point in time were you ever tasked with trying to cover some of this stuff up with soil? No . : Did you ever see any water pond up there? Not that I just explicitly remember. When you say it was a big hole, assume that it rained at some point in that part of Alabama in that time frame, which I think is a safe assumption, where would that water go? Would it not collect in the hole, or would it just drain out ? MR. MYERS: Object to the form. I know at one time -- I don't know the operation of it. At one time they had, I thought had a pump, pump situation up there where they would pump it out. That not being my responsibility, I really don't know, to tell you the REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032217 1 2 Q. 3 4 5 6 7 8 A. 9 10 11 12 13 14 1 5 Q. 16 1 7 A. 1 8 Q. 1 9 A. 2 0 Q. 2 1 A. 2 2 Q. 2 3 A. truth. I've have seen a photograph of a pump that appears be on the berm, and you are the first guy I've met who actually recalls there being one. Do you know where it got pumped to? MR. MYERS: Object to the form. Well, it eventually got pumped -- Well, I don't know. I think I know where it came later in years. It went back down to the west treatment plant. But in those particular days, I would have assumed it would have been the same route. I don't know that for sure. Just kind of pumped out of the hole and over the sides? No. Back to the plant. Back to the plant? Yes. Okay. And into the waste treatment? Into the waste treatment. But you don't know? I do not know that for absolute sure. I REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032218 70 1 2 3 4 5 Q 6 7 8 9 10 A. 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 Q 20 21 22 23 A. do know that I think that is the facts today. That is the way it is today. But now, then, I'm not real sure . Okay. I'm always interested in quantities when it comes to this waste stuff. When you were taking a batch of it up there, how big a container would you be taking up? Well, it would be in two forms, the best I recall. It would be in what we call fiber packs, which is the cardboard drums, what were called fiber packs at that time, and metal drums. Now, as far as the quantity, there would probably be maybe two pallets on the back of the old truck, eight drums. That was not an everyday thing. I'm guessing you never had any role in testing things for PCB contamination, like dirt, air, water, fish, sediment, people. No . REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032219 71 1 Q. 2 3 4 5 A. 6 Q. 7 8 9 1 0 Q. 11 A. 12 Q. 13 14 15 A. 1 6 Q. 17 18 19 20 21 22 A. 23 Q. Have you heard or are you aware that people around the plant contend that they have found PCBs in their yards, in their soil? Have I heard that? Yes. I have lear n-e d of it. (At this point Mr. Edward Newsom left the deposition proceedings.) And in the air around the plant? I have heard. Right now I'm not asking you whether you believe it or not, just whether you have heard it. Right. That it's in people's blood who live around the plant? MR. MYERS: That has been contended? MR. CUNNINGHAM: Yes, that it is cont ended. Yes. You heard about the fish advisory. And REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032220 72 1 2 3 A. 4 Q. 5 6 A. 7 8 Q. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2 0 A. 21 22 23 have you heard that the EPA Superfund folks have come to town? I heard that too. Now, how did you hear about these things? Most of that was through The Annist on Star. Now, I want to know if those things surprised you. Let me take them one at a time. Did it surprise you that -- assume for the sake of this question that PCB was found in a lot of yards there in the neighborhood by the people who live there, by the EPA, and by Monsanto's own testing company. Assume for the sake of my question that is true. Would it surprise you if that was so? MR. MYERS: Object to the form. It would not really surprise me. What would surprise me would be the parts per million, what we -- or what has been arbitrarily decided to be dangerous in REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032221 73 1 2 Q 3 4 5 6 7 A. 8 Q. 9 10 11 12 13 A. 14 15 16 1 7 Q. 1 8 A. 1 9 Q. 20 21 22 23 on parts per million. But it didn't surpris e you it i s there, but it wouldn 't bother you - - 11 wouldn'1 t be a source of concern to you at parts per million levels? MR. MYERS: Object :to the form. No . Would it surprise you to learn that many people have contended that their blood has been tested and laboratories have reported that there is PCB in their blood? It would not surprise me that they would try to find PCBs in their blood, simply because of what they think they can get out of it. That wasn't myquestion. I'm sorry. That's all right. It doesn't surprise you that people would go get tested. But I'm saying when they went and got tested, would it surprise you that for many people it was reported they had REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032222 74 1 2 3 A. 4 Q. 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 1 5 Q. 16 17 18 19 2 0 A. 21 2 2 Q. 2 3 A. elevated levels of PCB in their blood? MR. MYERS: Object to the form. Rephrase it where I can understand it. All right. Is it fair for me to characterize your general belief that you think all this stuff about PCBs is just a lot of hooey? MR. MYERS: Object to the form. If you can answer that question as he phrased it, answer it. If not, don't attempt to guess or speculate as to what he thinks is hooey. I'll use a word that Mr. Mundy used that everybody -- most of the guys out at the plant thought this was a lot of crap, all this concern about PCBs. Is that a fair - Are you asking me if I think it's a lot of crap? Yes. That is what I'm asking. Not necessarily. REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032223 75 1 Q. 2 3 A. 4 5 Q. 6 7 8 9 A. 10 1 1 Q. 12 13 14 15 16 17 1 8 A. 1 9 Q. 20 21 2 2 A. 23 What would make you think it is not a lot of crap? For you to show me evidence to the cont rary. Well, I'm saying what kind of evidence would you need to have for you to agree that it is something people should generally concern themselves with? Where it has been a detriment to someone's health. So if there was testimony in this case that PCBs can be detrimental to people's health, you would agree that people who then find that they have it in their blood, they would have cause for concern? MR. MYERS: Object to the form. Not necessarily. What would they have to show just in your mind that they have reason to be worried? That it is detrimental to their particular health. REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032224 76 1 Q. 2 A. "5 Q. 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 1 7 A. 1 8 Q. 1 9 A. 20 21 2 2 Q. 23 Okay. So you would want that proof? Right. Okay. Well, now, coming back to my question, assume for the sake of this question that an independent testing laboratory, with no reason to lie, 'that has a lot of money at stake in maintaining its reputation for integrity and honest reporting of results, tells a hundred people -- let's just pick a number, a hundred people in west - Anniston -- you have got PCBs in your blood at a level that is higher than we are used to seeing. Would that surprise y ou ? MR. MYERS: Object to the form. No. That wouldn't surprise me. Why wouldn't that surprise you? What would surprise me is -- Well, what you are wanting me to say is because of their living in the vicinity of -I don't want you to say anything, sir. I'm just trying to get what you really REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032225 77 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 A. 11 12 13 14 15 1 6 Q. 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 believe. Because I believe you are going to be brought in to testify for some reason. It obviously doesn't have anything do with what you did at the plant because you never worked in Aroclor. So I'm guessing now it has something to do with your attitude toward PCB. And I trying to explore that attitude. No. If I'd have a hundred people out there and if all hundred show, yes, it would surprise me. But if fifty show and fifty don't show, I wouldn't be surprised at that. I think it is going to be of -- different individuals. What if an expert hired by Monsanto, who is a toxicologist, expert on toxicology, hired by Monsanto in this case to help Monsanto out, when asked about the levels of PCBs in the blood of the people who live out around that plant said it's a unique situation, that it's higher than we have seen anywhere else. REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032226 78 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 A. 8 Q. 9 10 11 12 Q. 13 1 4 A. 1 5 Q. 16 17 18 1 9 A. 20 2 1 Q. 22 23 Would that surprise you? MR. MYERS: Object to the form. It assumes facts not in evidence and that won't be in evidence. If you know, you can tell him. I can't tell you. Well, you can tell me whether you would be surprised or not. You know the answer to that. MR. MYERS: Same objection. Would that surprise you or would it not? MR. MYERS: Same objection. It wouldn't surprise me. Because you have known for a long time that you have a lot of PCB out in that neighborhood, right? MR. MYERS: Object to the form. No. I certainly do not know that there are PCBs in the neighborhood. Would you be surprised to learn there was more PCB in people out there than in mo st places? REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032227 79 1 2 Q. 3 4 5 6 7 A. 8 9 10 1 1 Q. 12 13 14 Q . 15 16 A. 17 Q 18 19 20 21 22 23 MR. MYERS: Object to the form. You can't have it both ways. MR. MYERS: Don't argue with him, Charlie. MR. CUNNINGHAM: I'm just trying to get him to explain it. You are asking me if I would be surprised if an independent company found high levels of PCBs in those people ? Yes. And a Monsanto expert acknowledged it was high. Would that surprise you? MR. MYERS : Object to the f orm . I f the answer is no, it doesn't surp ris e me , just telling me no . No , I wouldn't be surprised. Why wou1dn't you be surprised? What about your personal experience working out there would cause you to know something that it wouldn't surprise you that there are high levels in people out there living around the plant? MR. MYERS: Object to the form. REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032228 80 1 A. 2 Q 3 4 5 A. 6 7 8 Q 9 A. 10 1 1 Q. 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 What, now? Why wouldn't i t surpris e me ? Why doesn't it surprise y ou ? Yes, that is what I'm asking. Why doe s n't that surprise you? Well, I don't know. I don't know why. It would surprise me i f you had it in you . It would surprise me too Well, how do we know you don ' t have it in you? I haven't been tested. I haven't lived next to a plant where they released it for years. I don't live where they tested tree bark and it had it in amazingly high levels. I don't live somewhere where they have tested the air and found high leves. MR. MYERS: All right, Charlie. Now you are starting to argue with him. MR. CUNNINGHAM: He is asking me que s tion s. MR. MYERS: Pose him a question. REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032229 81 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 A. 9 Q. 10 11 12 1 3 Q. 14 15 16 17 18 1 9 A. 2 0 Q. 21 22 23 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I did. He still hasn't answered it. MR. MYERS: Do you want the question read back? Read the last question back, please. (Requested portion of record read.) Why doesn't it surprise me? Why would it not surprise you that there are high levels of PCB in the people who live out around that plant? MR. MYERS: Object to the form. Assuming I brought you that proof, you told me that wouldn't surprise you. All I'm asking and all I want to know -- and I'm done, finished, and we're going home -- is why wouldn't that surprise you? MR. MYERS: Same objection. Now, what is he objecting to? He doesn't think I have that proof. MR. MYERS: I have objected to the nature of the question he asked. Putting that aside. REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032230 1 2 3 4 5 A. 6 7 Q. 8 9 A. 10 1 1 Q. 12 13 14 15 1 6 A. 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 answer his question if you can. If you can answer his question, go ahead and answer it . Of all -- where else -- How long was PCB made out there? From sometime in the '30s to sometime in the '70s. If there were PCBs in the neighborhood, where would it be? V-. I could give you a number of places it has been found in soil. I can give you a number of places it has been found in the air, basically all points of the comp ass. Well, I don't know that I can answer the que s tion. MR. CUNNINGHAM: All right. I'm done . (The deposition concluded at 3:15 p.m.) REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032231 83 1 I do hereby certify that the witness 2 whose attached deposition was taken before me 3 was by me first duly cautioned and sworn to 4 tell nothing but the truth in the cause 5 aforesaid; that the testimony contained herein 6 was by me reduced to writing in the presence 7 of said witnesses by means of stenography and 8 afterwards transcribed by means of computer 9 aided transcription. The foregoing is a true 1 0 and accurate transcript of the whole of the 1 1 testimony given by said witness, as aforesaid. 1 2 I do further certify that I am not 1 3 connected by blood or marriage with any of the 14 parties or their attorneys or agents and that 1 5 I am not an employee of any of them, nor 1 6 interested in the matter of controversy. 1 7 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set 1 8 my hand and affixed my notarial seal at 1 9 Gadsden, Alabama, County of Etowah, this 15th 2 0 day of January 2002. 21 Deborah Salers Garrett 2 2 Certified Shorthand Reporter Registered Professional Reporter 2 3 Notary Public, Alabama-at-Large My Commission expires: 3-6-05 REGIONAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. HARTOLDMON0032232