Document Lor9OvoL5YjdQOV8pZ7z175Dd
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt HENRY M. TAYLOR
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1 NO. B-126,986
2 RUSSELL ALLEN, ET AL
* IN THE DISTRICT COURT *
3 VS.
* JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS *
4 AMERICAN PETROFINA, INC.,*
ET AL
* 6OTH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
5
NO. A-144,426 (Consolidated B-126,986)
6
GLADYS FORRESTIER, ET AL * IN THE DISTRICT COURT 7*
VS. 8
* JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS *
AC&S, INC., ET AL
* 58TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
9
NO. A-134,614 (Consolidated B-126,986)
10
FRENCH HICKS, ET AL 11
* IN THE DISTRICT COURT *
VS. 12
* JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS *
BETHLEHEM STEEL
*
13 CORPORATION, ET AL
* 58TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
14 NO. A-144,426-A (Consolidated B-145,587)
15 GINGER BROUSSARD 16 VS. 17 AC&S, INC., ET AL
* IN THE DISTRICT COURT *
* JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS *
* 60TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
18 NO. B-150,802
19 LENA BROUSSARD,
* IN THE DISTRICT COURT
INDIVIDUALLY AND AS
*
20 PERSONAL REPRESENTATIVE *
OF THE ESTATE OF LLOYD J.*
21 BROUSSARD, DECEASED,
*
ET AL 22
* *
VS. 23
* JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS *
GULF STATES UTILITIES
*
24 COMPANY, ET AL
* 60TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
25
NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC.
HENRY M. TAYLOR
Page 2
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1 NO. B-142,345
2 LEROY CELESTINE
* IN THE DISTRICT COURT
*
3 VS.
* JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS
*
4 CLEMCO INDUSTRIES, INC. *
ET AL
* 60TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
5
NO. B-138,645
6
DOROTHY DAVIS, ET AL
* IN THE DISTRICT COURT
7*
VS. * JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS
8*
AC&S INC., ET AL
* 60TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
9
NO. B-149,788
10
JOANN FOSTER, ET AL
* IN THE DISTRICT COURT
11 *
VS. * JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS
12 *
A.M.F. INCORPORATED,
*
13 ET AL
* 60TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
14 NO. D-128,522 (Consolidated B-126,986)
15 LARRY LOBUE
* IN THE DISTRICT COURT *
16 VS.
* JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS *
17 AMERICAN PETROFINA,
*
INC., ET AL
* 60TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
18
NO. B-132,431
19
LEO MIRE 20
* IN THE DISTRICT COURT *
VS. 21
* JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS *
MOBIL OIL CORPORATION
* 60TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
22
23
24
25
NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC.
HENRY M. TAYLOR
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1 NO. B-134,025 file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt (2 of 178) [4/6/2002 12:14:33 PM]
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2 JOHNNY LEE POWERS
* IN THE DISTRICT COURT *
3 VS.
* JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS
*
4 AMERICAN OPTICAL
*
CORPORATION, ET AL
* 60TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
5
NO. B- 141,242
6
ROOSEVELT SCOTT
* IN THE DISTRICT COURT
7*
VS. * JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS
8*
AMERICAN OPTICAL
*
9 CORPORATION, ET AL
* 60TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
10 NO. B- 148,523
11 IN THE MATTER OF THE
* IN THE DISTRICT COURT
ESTATE OF VIRGIL
*
12 WILLBANKS, DECEASED,
*
ET AL
*
13 *
VS. * JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS
14 *
AC&S, INC., ET AL
* 60TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
15
NO. E-141,216 (Consolidated A-134,614)
16
DOROTHY LEE BARNARD,
* IN THE DISTRICT COURT
17 ET AL
*
*
18 VS.
* JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS
*
19 ALLIED-SIGNAL, INC.,
*
ET AL
* 58TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
20
NO. A- 140,498
21
JOYCE A. BORNE, ET AL
* IN THE DISTRICT COURT
22 *
VS. * JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS
23 *
ALLIED-SIGNAL, INC.,
*
24 ET AL
* 58TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
25
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HENRY M. TAYLOR
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1 NO. A-142,945
2 LOYICE B. EBANKS
* IN THE DISTRICT COURT *
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt 3 VS. 4 AC&S, INC., ET AL
* JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS * 58TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
5 NO. A- 141,797
6 JAMES EUGLON
* IN THE DISTRICT COURT
7 VS.
* JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS
8 AMERICAN OPTICAL CORPORATION, ET AL
* * 58TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
NO. A- 155,544
10
HARRY GILBERT, JR. , ET AL* IN THE DISTRICT COURT
11 *
VS. * JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS
12 *
AMOCO CORPORATION,
*
13 ET AL
* 58TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
14 NO. A- 151,231
15 DONNA JONES, ET AL
* IN THE DISTRICT COURT
16 VS.
* JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS
17 AC&S INC., ET AL
* 58TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
18 NO. A- 152,338
19 MARGARET PALERMO, ET AL * IN THE DISTRICT COURT
20 VS.
* JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS
21
ARCO CHEMICAL COMPANY,
*
ET AL
* 58TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
22
23
24
25
NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC.
HENRY M. TAYLOR
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1 NO. E-150,405 (Consolidated D-145,280-B-C-D)
2 DONALD ROY SCHMIDT, ET AL* IN THE DISTRICT COURT *
3 VS.
* JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS *
4 THE AETNA CASUALTY &
*
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SURETY, ET AL
* 172ND JUDICIAL DISTRICT
5
NO. A-153,063
6
ROBERT WASHINGTON
* IN THE DISTRICT COURT
7*
VS. * JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS
8*
AMERICAN CAST IRON PIPE *
9 COMPANY, ET AL
* 58TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
10 NO. D-143,616
11 BARBARA MAE CASTRO
* IN THE DISTRICT COURT
DIDDLE, ET AL
*
12 *
VS. * JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS
13 *
TEXACO INC., ET AL
* 136TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
14
NO. E-149,835
15
JUDY BLACKBURN, ET AL
* IN THE DISTRICT COURT
16 *
VS. * JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS
17 *
AC&S, INC., ET AL
* 172ND JUDICIAL DISTRICT
18
NO. E-153,066
19
BOYCE A. GILBERT
* IN THE DISTRICT COURT
20 *
VS. * JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS
21 *
AMERICAN OPTICAL
*
22 CORPORATION, ET AL
* 172ND JUDICIAL DISTRICT
23
24
25
NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC.
HENRY M. TAYLOR
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1 NO. E-144,963
2 JUANITA FRALICK, ET AL * IN THE DISTRICT COURT
3 VS.
* JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS
4 CONOCO, ET AL
* 172ND JUDICIAL DISTRICT
5 NO. E-144,117
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt 6 ALBERT PALMER, ET AL 7 VS. 8 SHELL OIL COMPANY
* IN THE DISTRICT COURT *
* JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS *
* 172ND JUDICIAL DISTRICT
9 NO. E- 146,212
10 BARBARA BOYD WINNINGKOFF ,* IN THE DISTRICT COURT
ET AL
*
11 *
VS. * JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS
12 *
CHEVRON U.S.A., INC.,
*
13 ET AL
* 172ND JUDICIAL DISTRICT
14 NO. 96 -3348-E
15 BERNICE DENKELER, ET AL * IN THE DISTRICT COURT
*
16 VS.
* NUECES COUNTY, TEXAS
*
17 AC&S INC., ET AL
* 148TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
18 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF
19 HENRY M. TAYLOR
20 January 24, 1997
21 Hilton Richmond Airport 5501 Eubank Road
22 Richmond, Virginia Reported by:
23 B. IRENE MEGUESS, CSR, RPR Texas CSR No. 2429
24 Nell McCallum & Associates, Inc. 2615 Calder, Suite 111
25 Beaumont, Texas 77702/(409) 838-0333 *****
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1 Appearances:
2 For the Plaintiffs: HERSCHEL L. HOBSON
3 of the Law Offices of Herschel L. Hobson
4 2190 Harrison Beaumont, Texas 77701
5 For Ethyl Corporation, et al:
6 B. STEPHEN RICE of the Law firm of
7 Hays, McConn, Rice & Pickering
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1200 Smith Street, Suite 400 8 Houston, Texas 77002
9 For Ethyl Corporation: ANN T. BURKS
10 Assistant Counsel Ethyl Corporation
11 330 South Fourth Street Richmond, Virginia 23219-4304
12 For Mobil Oil Corporation and Fina Oil and Chemical
13 Company (Forrestier Case Only); Kaiser Aluminum and Chemical Corporation (Lena Broussard Case Only);
14 Mobil Oil Corporation and Fina Oil and Chemical Company (Ginger Broussard Case Only); Mobil Oil
15 Corporation (Mire Case Only); Fina Oil and Chemical Company (H. Gilbert Case Only); Fina Oil and
16 Chemical Company (Palermo Case Only); Kaiser Aluminum and Chemical Corporation (Denkeler Case
17 Only): KIRK E. MARTIN
18 of the Law Firm of Jenkins, Grove & Martin, L.L.P.
19 P.O. Box 26008 Beaumont, Texas 77720-26008
20
21
22
23
24
25
NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC.
HENRY M. TAYLOR
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1 For Conoco Inc. (Lena Broussard Case Only); Atlantic Richfield Company, ARCO Chemical Company,
2 Temple-Inland, Inc., Temple-Inland Forest Products Corporation, CanadianOxy Offshore Production Co.,
3 OXY USA, Inc., Cit-Con Oil Corporation (Ginger Broussard Case Only); Atlantic Richfield Company,
4 ARCO Chemical Company, Temple-Inland, Inc., Temple-Inland Forest Products Corporation, OXY USA,
5 Inc., Quantum Chemical Corporation (Forrestier Case Only); Atlantic Richfield Company and Quantum
6 Chemical Corporation (Harry Gilbert Case Only); and Atlantic Richfield Company (Palermo Case Only):
7 ALLAN JONES of the Law Firm of
8 Orgain, Bell & Tucker 470 Orleans Building
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9 Beaumont, Texas 77701
10 For Binks Manufacturing Company (Gilbert Case Only); J.T. Thorpe Company (Forrestier Case Only):
11 RUSSELL R. SMITH of the Law Firm of
12 Fairchild, Price, Thomas & Haley 1801 North Street
13 Nacogdoches, Texas 75963-1668
14 For Liberty Mutual Insurance Company: ALAN ABES
15 of the Law Firm of Dinsmore & Shohl, L.L.P.
16 1900 Chemed Center 255 East Fifth Street
17 Cincinnati, Ohio 45202
18 For 3M: CHRISTOPHER P. MANNING
19 of the Law Firm of DeHay & Elliston, L.L.P.
20 1500 Maxus Energy Tower 717 North Harwood
21 Dallas, Texas 75201
22 For Fibreboard Corporation (Davis Case Only): MARK B. SCHAFFER
23 of the Law Firm of Powers & Frost, L.L.P.
24 810 Two Houston Center 909 Fannin
25 Houston, Texas 77010
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1 For WGM Safety Corporation (Scott, Boyce Gilbert, and Washington Cases Only):
2 DAVID W. FUNDERBURK of the Law Firm of
3 Funderburk & Funderburk 2777 Allen Parkway, Suite 1080
4 Houston, Texas 77019
5 For Metropolitan Life Insurance Company: MARK H. WALL
6 of the Law Firm of Ogletree, Deakins, Nash, Smoak & Stewart
7 First Union Building 177 Meeting Street
8 Charleston, South Carolina 29402
9 For John Crane Inc.: EILEEN M. MALONEY
10 of the Law Office of
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William M. Koziol 11 1 Kemper Drive
Long Grove, Illinois 60049-0001 12
For Minstar, AMF, B & B, and Harbison Walker: 13 SCOTT SWEET
of the Law Firm of 14 Vial, Hamilton, Koch & Knox
1717 Main Street, Suite 4400 15 Dallas, Texas 75201
16 For American Optical Corporation: MICHAEL L. BLAKENEY
17 of the Law Firm of Rienstra, Dowell & Flatten
18 470 Orleans Building, Suite 1010 Beaumont, Texas 77701
19 For Amoco Corporation, Amoco Oil Company, and
20 Amoco Chemical Company: JAMES J. MARON
21 of the Law Firm of Maron, Marvel & Wilks
22 1201 Market Street, Suite 1707 Wilmington, Delaware 19899
23
24
25
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HENRY M. TAYLOR
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1 For Westinghouse Electric Corporation: HOWARD W. WALKER
2 of the Law Firm of Jenkens & Gilchrist
3 1445 Ross Avenue, Suite 3200 Dallas, Texas 75202-2799
4 For Pittsburgh-Corning Corporation:
5 WILLIAM D. HARVARD of the Law Firm of
6 Blasingame, Burch, Garrard, Bryant & Ashley, P.C.
7 440 College Avenue North Athens, Georgia 30603
8 For DuPont:
9 F. FORD LOKER of the Law Firm of
10 Church & Houff, P.A. 2 N. Charles Street
11 Suite 600-B&O Building Baltimore, Maryland 21201
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12 For Gerson/PK Lindsay:
13 ROSS HOLIDAY JONES THOMAS W. DUESLER
14 of the Law Firm of Adams, Coffey & Duesler, L.L.P.
15 550 Fannin, Suite 830 Beaumont, Texas 77701
16 For Dresser Industries:
17 JOHN B. CATLETT, JR. of the Law Firm of
18 Sands, Anderson, Marks & Miller 801 East Main Street
19 Richmond, Virginia 23216
20 For Allied Signal: CASSANDRA C. COLLINS
21 of the Law Firm of Hunton & Williams
22 Riverfront Plaza, East Tower 951 East Byrd Street
23 Richmond, Virginia 23219-4074
24 In Attendance: MS. PATRICIA TAYLOR
25 ROBERT F. COPE, JR.
NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC.
HENRY M. TAYLOR
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1 The Videographer: WARRIENE FLATT
2 Legal Images 3 4 ***** 5 Videotaped deposition of HENRY M. TAYLOR, 6 a witness, called by Plaintiffs, on January 24, 7 1997, at Hilton Richmond Airport, 5501 Eubank Road, 8 Richmond, Virginia, before B. Irene Meguess, RPR, 9 Texas CSR No. 2429, pursuant to the following 10 stipulations: 11 (DEPOSITION EXHIBIT TAYLOR NO. 1 WAS 12 MARKED) 13 THE REPORTER: Before we go on the
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14 videotape, this is taken by notice; correct? 15 MR. HOBSON: By notice, pursuant to 16 the Texas Rules of Civil Procedure; and an 17 objection by one defendant will be considered 18 made by all. 19 And, Mr. Taylor, you have the right 20 to read and sign this deposition. That means 21 that our court reporter will prepare it into a 22 book. Everything that's said by everybody will 23 be there, and you get that book. You get a 24 separate errata sheet. 25 You can go through the deposition and
NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC.
HENRY M. TAYLOR
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1 read it. Any changes that need to be made, for 2 any reason, you note on a separate errata 3 sheet, have that signed before a local notary, 4 and return that to the reporter, if you want to 5 do that. Or you have the option, unless 6 somebody insists, you can waive your right to 7 read and sign the deposition. But you have 8 that option, sir, unless somebody insists. 9 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I -- I want to - 10 MR. HOBSON: Read and sign? 11 THE WITNESS: -- read and sign. 12 MR. HOBSON: Okay. The court 13 reporter will make - 14 THE WITNESS: I also --
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt 15 MR. HOBSON:
-- arrangements --
16 THE WITNESS : -- want a copy of the
17 video.
18 MR. HOBSON: We can do that for you,
19 too, sir.
20 MR. RICE: I want to put something on
21 the record before we start, Herschel.
22 MR. HOBSON: Go ahead.
23 MR. RICE: I object to the deposition
24 going forward today. I was not provided notice
25 of the deposition, although I requested it
NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC.
HENRY M. TAYLOR
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1 twice from Herschel's office. I was advised of 2 the location of the deposition and the date, 3 but official notice was not received. 4 I also was advised when I went to the 5 Marriott this morning, which is where I 6 understood the deposition to be, that there was 7 no deposition there. 8 I was provided a copy of Taylor 9 Exhibit 1 from Herschel's office, which says 10 the event has been canceled for this date. I 11 subsequently learned that the deposition was 12 going forward out here. Apparently there was, 13 delivered late yesterday, a -- to my office a 14 notice that the deposition location had been 15 changed, but I never received a notice of the 16 deposition in the first place.
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17 So, on that basis I do not waive my 18 right to object to the deposition as being 19 properly noticed. 20 (OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION) 21 THE REPORTER: All parties are not 22 represented; correct? 23 MR. HOBSON: I think that's correct. 24 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're on the 25 record at 10:01.
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1 TABLE OF CONTENTS PAGE
2 EXAMINATION BY MR. HOBSON................................................................. 15
3 EXAMINATION BY MR. MARTIN.............................................................. 169
4 EXHIBITS
5 DEPOSITION EXHIBIT TAYLOR NO. 1................................................11
6 LETTER DATED 1-23-97, 1 PAGE
7 DEPOSITION EXHIBIT TAYLOR NO. 2.......................... DESCRIPTIVE PORTION OF BOOK ENTITLED
8 "THE DISEASES OF OCCUPATIONS," FOURTH EDITION, DONALD HUNTER, M.D., 3 PAGES
9 DEPOSITION EXHIBIT TAYLOR NO. 3..........................
10 DESCRIPTIVE PORTION OF BOOK ENTITLED "EXPLORING THE DANGEROUS TRADES,"
11 ALICE HAMILTON, M.D., 2 PAGES
179 179
12 DEPOSITION EXHIBIT TAYLOR NO. 4.......................................... 179 DESCRIPTIVE PORTION OF BOOK ENTITLED
13 "PLANT AND PROCESS VENTILATION," W.C.L. HEMEON, 2 PAGE
14 DEPOSITION EXHIBIT TAYLOR NO. 5.......................................... 179
15 CONTENTS OF WHITE BINDER NOTEBOOK, 65 PAGES
16 DEPOSITION EXHIBIT TAYLOR NO. 6.......................................... 179
17 DOCUMENTS PROVIDED BY THE WITNESS
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt 18 DEPOSITION EXHIBIT TAYLOR NO. 7.......................................... 179 SLIDES PROVIDED BY THE WITNESS 19
20
21
22
23
24
25
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1 HENRY M. TAYLOR, 2 having been duly sworn, testified as follows, 3 to-wit: 4 EXAMINATION BY MR. HOBSON: 5 Q. Could you introduce yourself by telling us 6 your name, please, sir. 7 A. Okay. My name is Henry Taylor. I reside 8 at 12900 Silver Crest Road, Chester, Virginia, for 9 the past 20 years. I am president of a company 10 called R.E.C., Incorporated, that was incorporated, 11 I believe, in 1976. 12 Q. Mr. Taylor, my name is Herschel Hobson; 13 and I know somewhere back in our past we've met. I 14 recognize your face. I can't exactly remember for 15 sure where it was; but we have met, probably some 16 20 years ago or more. But you understand I 17 represent people who have brought a lawsuit against 18 what I believe are some of your old employers - 19 Ethyl and -- and I understand you worked at one time
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20 at Allied, as well. 21 A. Uh-huh. 22 Q. So, you understand I'm on the opposite 23 side of your old employers from this lawsuit; do you 24 understand that? 25 A. Oh, yes.
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1 Q. Could I begin by asking you where you grew 2 up, sir, what part of the country? 3 A. Grew up in the Midwest. As the story 4 goes, I was a gleam in my daddy's eye in Alabama and 5 Texas and conceived in Texas and born outside of 6 Chicago. They invented something called a 7 Depression, and we wandered. 8 Q. I see. And may I ask your date of birth, 9 please, sir? 10 A. August 23rd, 1928. 11 Q. And would you give us the benefit of your 12 education after high school, please, sir. 13 A. United States Navy was an education. 14 After being in the Navy, I attended a school for 15 chiropractic in Chicago, Illinois. I attended North 16 Central College in Naperville, Illinois. I attended 17 the University of Illinois Medical School. I 18 attended medical college. I attended many short 19 courses on engineering and health. 20 Through the years I received a master's
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt 21 degree from the University of North Carolina in a 22 combined safety, environmental health, industrial 23 hygiene discipline. I then attended many other 24 workshops and training -- places of training, 25 technical training, the University of Michigan,
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1 different universities and schools throughout the 2 United States and, really, over -- around the world, 3 also in Japan. 4 Q. I -- I see from your resume that your 5 earlier degree was a Bachelor of Arts with honor in 6 chemistry and zoo- -- zoology from North Central 7 College? 8 A. That's correct. 9 Q. And that was 1954? 10 A. That's correct, I believe. 11 Q. And then you have work at the University 12 of Illinois. You say it's -- human health science 13 was the area you studied? 14 A. Yes. Yeah. I -- I went in and the -- and 15 was admitted to medical school and, after two years, 16 decided that wasn't the pursuit for me. And so, 17 they have an -- a recognition of it, that that's 18 what they call it -- they called it at the time. I 19 don't know what they do nowadays. 20 Q. And then you have a master's of public 21 health in environmental science -- and that's an 22 area of interest in industrial hygiene and safety --
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23 from the University of North Carolina in 1970? 24 A. That's correct. 25 Q. And that's the university at Chapel Hill,
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1 is it? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. That was through a school of public 4 health? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Could I start with your professional 7 education in the area of industrial hygiene? Could 8 you give me your first job that you had in 9 industrial hygiene, please. 10 A. I'm going to subvert that a little bit in 11 that I worked as an industrial hygienist, without it 12 being called industrial hygiene, when I worked for 13 the Health Department -- Department in Wheaton, 14 Illinois. So that Dave Frazier, who was my -- one 15 of my mentors at the University of North Carolina, 16 head of the industrial hygiene department, credited 17 my industrial hygiene experience for 13 years before 18 I went to graduate school. Okay? 19 Q. About when did you -20 A. So that when -- the first official job as 21 an industrial hygienist was with Tennessee Valley 22 Authority. 23 Q. About when did you work for the Wheaton,
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt 24 Illinois, Health Department, please?
25 A. Well, before I went to the University of
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1 North Carolina. 2 If -- if you look on this expert 3 profile -- you all have a copy of this. If -- if 4 somebody can pick out that -- that date, great. 5 Q. That's all right. But it was just prior 6 to going to the University of North Carolina? 7 A. Yes. The head engineer at the Health 8 Department had been to UNC and wanted me to go. 9 Q. And I take it that you went to -- to UNC, 10 studied under Dr. Frazier, got your master's degree, 11 and then took other employment. 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Where did you go after your master's? 14 A. Tennessee Valley Authority. 15 Q. So, you would have gone to the TVA in 16 about 1970? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And what was your job title when you were 19 working at TVA, please? 20 A. I was an industrial hygiene engineer. 21 That was the official title of -22 Q. Can you give us -23 A. -- that. 24 Q. -- some examples of the kinds of things an 25 industrial hygiene engineer, such as yourself, would
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1 have been doing at the TVA in 1970? 2 A. I was responsible for the construction -3 for the health of people in the construction 4 division of Tennessee Valley Authority. At that 5 point we had some 30,000 people building steam 6 plants, Brown's Ferry Nuclear Plant, some small 7 dams, lots of construction underway at that point. 8 And my function -- oh, we also had Raccoon 9 Mountain Peak Load Pump Storage Project; and I 10 helped design the ventilation for this facility 11 outside of Chattanooga. We dug it -- a 12 thousand-foot tunnel inside of a mountain and went a 13 thousand foot up and made a bathtub at the top of it 14 and created a power source, if you will, for the 15 Tennessee Valley area. 16 And so, the -- the engineer that I 17 reported to died in that period; and TVA sent me off 18 to the University of Michigan for a special 19 ventilation training beyond my master's degree. And 20 I came back and then continued to finish that design 21 and eventually to hire people to certify and to 22 check it on a periodic basis and develop a program 23 in industrial hygiene and construction. 24 Q. And -- and about how long did you work for 25 the TVA as an industrial hygiene engineer?
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1 A. I'd like to make reference to -- '70 and 2 '72. 3 Q. And what was your next employment after 4 your industrial hygiene engineering experience at 5 the TVA? 6 A. I went to work with Ethyl Corporation in 7 New Orleans. 8 Q. And so, you would have started that job in 9 1972? 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. And about how long did you stay with Ethyl 12 Corporation? 13 A. Till '76, sometime in '76. 14 Q. And can you tell me what title you would 15 have held or titles you would have held at Ethyl 16 Corporation, please? 17 A. Okay. I started out as the industrial 18 hygienist. Then, as things went along, I was 19 identified as the chief corporate industrial 20 hygienist for Ethyl Corporation. 21 Q. Do you recall approximately when that job 22 title change occurred? 23 A. No. Halfway. 24 Q. When you joined Ethyl Corporation, was 25 there already a -- an industrial hygienist working
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1 for the corporation or had there been in the past 2 that you knew about? 3 A. There was an industrial hygiene technician 4 working for the corporation at that time. He's in 5 the room here. 6 Q. Oh, who would that be, sir? 7 A. Mr. Cope. 8 MR. COPE: Right here. 9 BY MR. HOBSON: 10 Q. Oh, I see. 11 A. I think Mr. Cope and -- and Steve Rice 12 here talked -13 MR. COPE: Yes. 14 A. -- yesterday. 15 MR. COPE: My job title is industrial 16 hygienist. 17 BY MR. HOBSON: 18 Q. Okay. And could you describe what you 19 remember Ethyl Corporation being like; in other 20 words, how big the company was, where -- where the 21 plants were, that sort of thing, and when you joined 22 the company, sir? 23 A. I believe that the -- to the best of my 24 recall, there were 54 plants across the United 25 States in varying divisions -- plastics division, a
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt 1 chemical division, aluminum division -- two or three 2 facilities there -- and then several plastics 3 divisions. 4 Q. Now, the -- the New Orleans office, where 5 you worked, was that a corporate office or an 6 outlying office or a plant office? How would you 7 describe it, sir? 8 A. That's what attracted me to Ethyl 9 Corporation. It was the -- a toxicologic facility
10 built. It was supposed to be -- presented to me as 11 the Midland -- this is a tox lab of an organization 12 in the -- where it's located in the north. This was 13 supposed to be the Midland of the south. We're 14 going to solve all the injuries and hurts and 15 prevent all of those kinds of problems in the 16 southern United States. 17 Q. When you say -18 MR. RICE: Object to the 19 responsiveness. 20 BY MR. HOBSON: 21 Q. When you say "the Midland," are you 22 meaning Midland, Michigan? 23 A. Yeah. 24 Q. So, that's equivalent to Dow's toxicity 25 testing facility?
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1 A. Yes. Yeah. And it was a very, very nice 2 facility, a good facility, and certainly was its
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3 equivalent for just starting out.
4 Q. And was it your appreciation that this was
5 a relatively new laboratory, then?
6 A. Yes. It was brand spanking new.
7 Q. And your job was the industrial hygienist
8 for the laboratory?
9 A. For Ethyl Corporation, with offices
10 located at the laboratory.
11
Q. Would
you have had responsibility asan
12 industrial hygienist at Ethyl Corporation, then, for
13 these approximately 54 plants?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. So, part of your job was tovisit these
16 plants, too?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And you say Mr. Cope was there working for
19 Ethyl. Was he part of the organization you were in
20 or in a different organization within Ethyl?
21 A. No. He -- we were together, and we were
22 in the same organization. We -- and we reported to
23 the same person.
24 Q. And to whom did you report?
25 A. Bill Rine- -- well, first, I reported to
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1 George Roush. He's a medical director of Ethyl 2 Corporation. Then I reported to Bill Rinehart. 3 Then I reported to Mitch Zavon. Then I reported to
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt 4 Gary Ter Haar. 5 Q. Dr. Roush was the medical director of 6 Ethyl, you say? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And who would Dr. Rinehart have been? 9 A. Dr. Rinehart was the -- a toxicologist.
10 Q. And did Dr. Rinehart work with Ethyl at 11 the same time Dr. Roush did, then? 12 A. Yes. I think George -- George hired Bill, 13 to the best of my knowledge. Dr. Roush hired 14 Dr. Rinehart. 15 Q. And then, when Dr. Rinehart came on, your 16 reporting responsibility changed from Dr. Roush to 17 Dr. Rinehart? 18 A. No. Dr. Roush was the entity that brought 19 me to Ethyl Corporation -- his dream, his vision. 20 Q. I -- I'm confused a little bit, I guess, 21 about when your reporting from Dr. Roush to 22 Dr. Rinehart -- Dr. Rinehart occurred. 23 A. Probably with -- I was hired under one 24 flag; and then by the time I had arrived, it had 25 changed.
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1 Q. I see. And then there is a Dr. -2 A. And there's -3 Q. I'm sorry. Go ahead. 4 A. Well, and then, not too long thereafter, 5 Dr. Roush left.
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6 Q. And then you mentioned Dr. Zavon. What 7 was his title? 8 A. Medical director. Let's see, Zavon - 9 well, medical director. 10 Q. So, Dr. Roush, the medical director, 11 leaves; and Dr. Zavon replaces Dr. Roush? 12 A. Probably functionally Dr. Rinehart worked 13 in that responsible areauntil Dr. Zavon was brought 14 on board - 15 Q. Was Dr. Rinehart a - 16 A. -- as I recall. 17 Q. -- a physician? 18 A. No. He's a toxicologist. 19 Q. A Ph.D., then? 20 A. Ph.D. 21 Q. So, are you telling me, then, for a period 22 of time after Dr. Roush left and before Dr. Zavon 23 came, the -- the medical directorship, as you 24 appreciated it, was -- wasvacant? 25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. And then, you mentioned Gary Ter Haar. Is 2 that an M.D., Ph.D.; or is it Dr. Ter Haar? 3 A. Ph.D. 4 Q. And Dr. - 5 A. Dr. -- yeah. Okay. 6 Q. What is Dr. Ter Haar's area of work?
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt 7 A. Dr. Ter Haar came out of the Detroit 8 laboratory for Ethyl Corporation. And at least part 9 of his work was to analyze chemicals coming out of
10 any exhausts of automobiles. As far as I know, that 11 was his background. 12 And -- and up in the Detroit lab, in 13 visiting -- I visited the Detroit lab several times 14 as an industrial hygienist. And so, I -- I think 15 even in the slides in -- that we'll view, there may 16 be a shot of an automobile at the Detroit lab. 17 Q. When you left Ethyl in 1976, was Dr. Zavon 18 the medical director at that time? 19 A. No. Dr. Ter Haar was. 20 MR. RICE: Medical director, he 21 said. 22 A. There -- well, Ter Haar functioned as the 23 medical director because Zavon had left in a rather 24 abrupt fashion and Ter Haar was brought in from 25 Detroit. I mean he -- functionally he worked in
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1 that spot. 2 BY MR. HOBSON: 3 Q. So, to be sure I've got this right, your 4 '76 -- I'm sorry -- your tenure at Ethyl from 1972 5 to 1976, there were two medical directors, Dr. Roush 6 and Dr. Zavon; and there were periods of times when 7 there was no medical doctor in the medical 8 director's position at Ethyl. Would that -- is that
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9 what you're saying? 10 A. Yeah. And another way of looking at it is 11 that the reporting for the medical director in Ethyl 12 gradually went from the highest level to quite a low 13 level. 14 Q. Can you explain what you mean by that? 15 MR. RICE: Excuse me. Object to 16 the responsiveness. 17 BY MR. HOBSON: 18 Q. Tell us what you mean, if you would, 19 Mr. Taylor -20 A. The medical director that employed me -21 when you're trying to help with change, you need to 22 speak from some point of power. One of the things 23 that was attractive to me and attracted me to Ethyl 24 Corporation was that the medical director reported 25 to the topmost people, as did Dr. Kehoe before him.
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1 Kehoe worked as a consultant medical 2 director for Ethyl Corporation for many years. He 3 reported directly to -- in my understanding, to the 4 family Gotwalds, who ran Ethyl Corporation. 5 The next entity was that George Roush was 6 on the board of directors for Ethyl Corporation. 7 The next thing that occurred, to my 8 knowledge, was that George Roush reported to an 9 executive vice-president by the name of Bim
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt 10 Geautreaux, who was on the board of directors. 11 The next -- we're -- we're going to lower 12 levels in the organization. And when that happens, 13 organizationally, then one loses their power. One 14 loses their influence, their ability to influence 15 for whatever your purpose, whatever you are hired 16 for. You lose a percentage of effectiveness. 17 So, there was a certain percentage of 18 effectiveness lost from the time that I was hired to 19 the time that I got there because then my reporting 20 happened to a -- someone who had a less powerful 21 position, if you will. 22 MR. RICE: Excuse me. I object 23 to the responsiveness of -- or the 24 nonresponsive nature. 25 BY MR. HOBSON:
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1 Q. The change in reporting level of the 2 person you reported to -3 A. Uh-huh. 4 Q. -- how did you perceive this affecting 5 your work, if it did? 6 A. It lessens, it weakens the strength of 7 findings. It makes more complex the distribution of 8 findings, and it puts people who are not technical 9 to handle the information. Instead of being able to 10 make decisions, they had to do things by consensus. 11 And it slows every -- the process of industrial
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12 hygiene becomes slow. 13 Q. Now, tell us what you were doing in this 14 early time at Ethyl while you were an industrial 15 hygienist and experiencing these changes in the -16 the reporting. 17 A. I would like to make reference to the 18 slides. It would help me more to be able to do 19 that. 20 Q. Can you tell us -21 A. Okay? 22 Q. -- what the slides are and how they help 23 answer that question, first? 24 A. They show what I was doing. 25 Q. Okay.
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1 A. Okay? 2 MR. RICE: Well, I object to 3 the deposition not proceeding in a 4 question-answer fashion. 5 MR. HOBSON: I think he's answering 6 my question but - 7 MR. RICE: Well, I think he's not. 8 MR. HOBSON: Okay. 9 BY MR. HOBSON: 10 Q. Do we need to turn the slide projector on, 11 then - 12 A. Okay.
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt 13 Q. -- Mr. Taylor? 14 A. What I would like to do for my thoughts 15 so, be patient with me, please. By def- -16 MR. RICE: Excuse me. I object to 17 the showing of something up here. There's no 18 question before the witness So, I object. 19 MR. HOBSON: Okay Fine. 20 BY MR. HOBSON: 21 Q. Go ahead, Mr. Taylor. 22 A. Okay. We have been in the business for 23 40 years, really, of industrial hygiene, one way or 24 the other 25 Q. When you say "we," who do you mean?
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1 A. Our company. 2 Q. Ethyl? 3 A. Me. 4 Q. Oh. 5 A. Me. 6 Q. Okay. 7 A. We've gotten to the point where we have 8 helped somebody become very, very successful, 9 through using effective industrial hygiene 10 principles. We learned, through the situations, as 11 they described, that top management has to be 12 involved if you're to accomplish anything. So that 13 at this juncture in my life, after 40 years and a 14 reflection, we bring -- present ourself as
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15 management consultants, specializing in safety, 16 industrial hygiene, environmental, indoor air 17 quality, risk evaluation and control, and improving 18 management processes. 19 Q. That's your R.E.C. corporation you're -20 A. Yes. 21 Q. -- talking about? 22 A. Yeah. 23 Q. That started when, sir? 24 MR. RICE: Excuse me. I'm going 25 to object to the last matter, which was not
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1 responsive to a question. 2 BY MR. HOBSON: 3 Q. When did you start R.E.C., Inc., sir? 4 A. R.E.C. was incorporated in the year 1976. 5 Let me get to that. 6 Q. What -- what -- what was the purpose of 7 incorporating R.E.C., Inc.? How did that come 8 about? 9 A. We would get to that, but I'll go ahead 10 and answer now. As part of my responsibility to -11 at Ethyl Corporation, I was asked to conduct surveys 12 at companies where -- industrial hygiene surveys, 13 audits, at companies where Ethyl Corporation sold 14 its product, such companies as Crown Petroleum, 15 Ashland Petroleum, and the list goes on -- perhaps a
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt 16 dozen different petrochemical operations. 17 This was at the time when OSHA was just 18 forming up, and these organizations evidently 19 appreciated Ethyl coming in and sharing their 20 expertise and helping them organize their programs. 21 Q. Now, I see on this slide that -- that 22 you've got up here, it just occurred to me, R.E.C. 23 might be recognize hazards, evaluate, and control. 24 A. That's where it came from. The Atomic 25 Energy and Oil Workers Union in Texas had an
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1 objection to Ethyl Corporation coming in and 2 saying: Here is their expert. He's going to come 3 in and protect you and so on and so forth. 4 The union objected to this, and they were 5 in the position that they couldn't refuse Ethyl 6 Corporation. After all, they needed the tetraethyl 7 lead, methyl lead -- they needed the -- the 8 products. So, it made a confrontation within their 9 organizations. 10 The higher management in Ethyl Corporation 11 solved that problem by having Henry incorporate. 12 So, I've been incorporated. When I worked with 13 Ethyl Corporation, at the end of that, at least -14 applied for it in 1995. I must have been given the 15 go ahead -16 Q. You mean '75? 17 A. '75. I must have been given the go ahead
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18 to do that . My incorporation came -- R.E.C. came to 19 existence in January of 1976. 20 Q. Let -- let me ask you a few questions, 21 then, see if I've understood what you' ve said. 22 Ethyl Corporation was going to market your 23 industrial hygiene skills? 24 A. They were, yes. 25 Q. And in fact, you did some consulting in
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1 industrial hygiene for other companies, through 2 Ethyl? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And it wasEthyl's suggestion that you 5 incorporate and form what became R.E.C., Inc.? 6 A. Yes. The -- the unions then could -- if 7 I -- my experience and expertise was -- was 8 submitted to a plant.Then the mechanism, I 9 understood, happened is that the plant, the 10 facility, could give this to their union and their 11 union then would have the final say on whether Henry 12 Taylor would go through and -- and look at the 13 health aspects of their facility where they worked. 14 Q. Now, you -- you mentioned that Ethyl was 15 in the business of selling leaded gasoline additive 16 to the plants, the refineries and chemical plants? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. For the benefit of people who might not
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt 19 know much about lead antiknock additive, can you 20 tell us, in general, what this product was and how 21 it was sold? 22 A. I mentioned that we visited the Detroit 23 laboratory. And what a wonderful group of human 24 beings, generally. They had the feeling that they 25 helped preserve democracy in the world.
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1 Great Britain had been losing the war over 2 Britain because the Spitfire, their airplanes, could 3 not keep up with the Messerschmitt. They 4 couldn't -- they were out-maneuvered by the German 5 fighters. 6 Tetraethyl lead came in and enhanced the 7 interval of energy transmission in the piston so 8 that more power could be developed. And with the 9 advent of the tetraethyl lead, the war over Britain 10 changed. 11 I might mention that my wife, Patricia, 12 here with me, was on the receiving end of that. I 13 might have helped save her life or Ethyl might have 14 helped save her life when Hitler was bombing on 15 her. It's kind of interesting. 16 Q. Now, the -- had Ethyl been making lead 17 additive prior to World War II, even? 18 A. Not -- not to -- not to my knowledge. 19 That's -- that's where it developed. It was 20 invented there. It was invented during the war.
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21 Okay? And as -- at least as applies to aviation, 22 okay, and aviation fuels of those days. 23 So, this -- this fuel -- this more punch 24 kind of a fuel, then, would have application in any 25 gasoline engine -- automotive, whatever.
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1 Q. Now, the -- this lead antiknock additive 2 product that Ethyl was selling to the -- the various 3 refineries in the United States after the war, was 4 there a program that Ethyl established to make sure 5 this product was handled properly by the -- its 6 customers? 7 A. Yes. Yeah. And I -- in the main this was 8 strongly influenced by Dr. Kehoe. 9 Q. Okay. Who was Dr. Kehoe? 10 A. Dr. Kehoe was a medical -- he was a 11 physician, considered the grandfather, I guess, 12 of -- of lead, at least in the United States. Did 13 work -- he did research to find lead in outreaches 14 of Mexico and lead around the world. And he helped 15 characterize man's interface with lead. 16 He periodically, before my time, caused 17 the -- during the manufacture of tetraethyl lead, 18 that it would be so tight that they had no need for 19 industrial hygienists, because none of the 20 tetraethyl lead would get out in the air. That was 21 his theory.
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt 22 Q. Now, Dr. Kehoe, as I appreciate it, was, 23 at least for some period of time, at the University 24 of Cincinnati? 25 A. Yes. Yeah.
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1 Q. Now, how far back -2 A. The one -- one time that I met him, that's 3 where I met him. 4 Q. How far back in time, based on your 5 experience with Ethyl, would you say that -- that 6 Dr. Kehoe was Ethyl's medical director? 7 A. I -- I don't have an estimate on that. 8 I would like to, at this time, give you 9 two copies of documentation (tendering), okay, 10 because what I want to do is -- is at the second -11 and then you do with the second copy whatever you 12 will -- but these tabs that I make reference to -- I 13 don't have a photographic memory, if you will, 14 and -- or organization. And so, I follow a 15 chronology of the events. Okay? So, when I 16 described the -- what we are -- how we present 17 ourself to the world this day and age, then that is 18 Document 2 in this. Okay? 19 Then, you had already asked me about 20 Tennessee Valley Authority. And in August 16th of 21 1982, making reference to a work in the early '70s, 22 a fellow who was the director of the American Board 23 of Industrial Hygiene and the past chairman of the
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt 24 American Conference of Governmental Industrial 25 Hygienists by the name of Dave Trayer said that:
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1 Based upon the work he did -- Henry Taylor -- while 2 under my supervision, our work together in other 3 professional activities, his professional 4 certification by the American Board of Industrial 5 Hygiene, I consider Henry Taylor to be a highly 6 qualified and competent industrial hygienist. 7 And among this group of predators, I want 8 to have -- at least Dave will come and -- and say 9 something nice. Okay? 10 MR. RICE: Object - 11 A. And I'm saying that jokingly. 12 MR. RICE: Well, I object to the - 13 A. I don't - 14 MR. RICE: -- responsiveness. 15 A. Okay. 16 One of the -- one of the documents also in 17 there is that -- my certification by the American 18 Board of Industrial Hygiene in comprehensive 19 practice of industrial hygiene on May the 14th, 20 1972, okay, and -- and a reference there that I have 21 kept up that certification, attending courses, and 22 doing work there. 23 BY MR. HOBSON: 24 Q. Now --
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt 25 A. Now --
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1 Q. -- Mr. Taylor, let me interrupt you -2 A. Certainly. 3 Q. -- just a second. We invited you here by 4 subpoena -5 A. Yes. 6 Q. -- and asked you to bring certain 7 documents pursuant to that subpoena. 8 A. Yeah. 9 Q. Are these documents responsive to that 10 subpoena? 11 A. Yes, absolutely. And this -- this is what 12 I was attempting to get to. Okay? 13 One of the documents has the word 14 "dose response" upside down. Okay? Integral to 15 asking me questions, okay, and integral to 16 understanding my view on things, you've got to have 17 a concept of this dose-response. 18 In Ethyl -- let me change this so 19 that -- if I have a full cup of coffee, we could 20 consider that full dose. If I had a half a cup of 21 coffee, I have a lesser dose, a lesser concentration 22 of material. 23 If I have a full cup of coffee, I'm going 24 to have to adjourn and go over there to the 25 washroom. I might be able to sip on a half a cup of
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1 coffee and we go along together. My response is: 2 To a heavy dose, I'm going to have to do something 3 different than I would to a mild dose. 4 On the handouts I have, I put the word 5 "dose response" on it. But you'll notice that 6 that's upside down. 7 The fascinating thing about going to work 8 with Ethyl Corporation is that they had tremendous 9 documentation of response. 10 Q. Let me stop you just one second. 11 A. Sure. 12 MR. LOKER: I object. I would 13 like the witness to finish his answer. 14 MR. HOBSON: I'm going to give 15 him that chance, but I want to ask this 16 question in the middle. 17 BY MR. HOBSON: 18 Q. Would you explain to us what the upside 19 down "dose response" exhibit here that you have has 20 to do with Ethyl Corporation? 21 MR. RICE: Before you do that -22 A. We're right to that. We're right to that 23 MR. RICE: Let me just interject -24 THE WITNESS: Sure. 25 MR. RICE: -- an objection --
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1 THE WITNESS: Go ahead, Steve. 2 MR. RICE: -- to the 3 nonresponsiveness of the prior dialogue. 4 Go ahead. 5 A. Okay. Ethyl Corporation had had 6 tremendous people as medical directors. You know, 7 here is Kehoe. Roush was very, very impressive. 8 Okay? I later got to know Dr. Roy Bock, and I got 9 to know Ted Robinson. Okay? Tremendous human 10 beings as physicians in the people protection 11 business. They had tremendous response 12 information. They had very little dose 13 information. Okay? 14 Because of the variableness in the human 15 organism, the physician has great difficulty 16 dealing -- or differentiating variableness in human 17 beings. Look at us all. Look around this room how 18 we vary. Okay? 19 However, is there somebody here who's 20 sick, who really ought to be in the hospital? And 21 it becomes difficult, without relating this -- just 22 with the response information, you really don't know 23 about the border-lying situations. 24 But if we can say that several people in 25 this room should be in a hospital and then we find
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1 that they were exposed, they had an exposure dose 2 that was similar, then we're beginning to understand 3 the dose-response relationship. 4 We're dealing with biological variation, 5 the docs are; and they're operating blind unless 6 they have the dose information. 7 The converse is true. If we have dose 8 information, without a biological response, you 9 can't protect anyone. You need to have that 10 relationship. That's what brought me to Ethyl 11 Corporation, is that they had all of this, very 12 little of this (indicating). 13 BY MR. HOBSON: 14 Q. Are -- are you saying, Mr. Taylor, that 15 MR. RICE: Excuse me. I object 16 to the responsiveness of the last answer. 17 And let me also interject -- object to the 18 slide up here, because there 's no question 19 before the witness. 20 MR. HOBSON: Well, let's -- let's 21 A. I'm referencing dose-response here, but 22 okay. 23 BY MR. HOBSON: 24 Q. The slide behind you talks about the 25 application of dose-response and your handout said
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1 dose-response and these two go together?
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt 2 A. Yeah. 3 Q. Are you saying, when you talk about 4 this -- this dose-response on your -- on your chart 5 there, that response is, in essence, medical 6 monitoring in the industrial situation? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And the dose is industrial hygiene in the 9 industrial situation?
10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And if I understand what you said, then, 12 for there to be a -- a good, competent program in 13 industrial practice, you must have both -14 A. Yes. 15 Q. -- medical monitoring and industrial 16 hygiene or personnel monitoring? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Now, why is this dose-response connection 19 so important in your line of work? 20 A. Later slides, it -- it allows the 21 physician, it helps the physician declare 22 extraordinary risk or acceptable risk for the life 23 and well-being of the people working in that 24 facility. 25 Q. Now, how is it, sir, that -- that you, as
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1 the industrial hygienist at Ethyl, did your job to 2 begin to answer what you had been hired for about 3 the dose side of this problem?
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4 A. Okay. I would like to go further through 5 the slides in response to that. 6 Q. All right, sir. 7 A. And I've got to see them somehow. 8 THE WITNESS: Turn the focus knob on 9 that, please. 10 MS. TAYLOR: Where is it located? 11 THE WITNESS: Up on top, right next 12 to the wheel, on top. 13 MR. HOBSON: On top. 14 MS. TAYLOR: (Complying) 15 A. Okay. I'm going -- I'm going to go to the 16 next slide. Let's see. 17 THE WITNESS: Our -- our lighting 18 is -- can we dim the lights at all? Certainly, 19 right back there on the wall. 20 Dim the lights, please. Turn -- if 21 you just turn one of those knobs -- and let's 22 just play with it and watch the lights and see 23 if we can -24 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: (Complying) 25 THE WITNESS: There you go. Do that
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1 some more. And -- and do it some more. Now 2 we're starting to get there. 3 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: (Complying) 4 A. All right. I'm going to point out
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt 5 something here. And if you can't see it -6 BY MR. HOBSON: 7 Q. First of all, if I could, Mr. Taylor -8 A. Yeah. 9 Q. -- would you tell us what this slide is,
10 just an overview? What -- what is this slide a 11 picture of? 12 A. All right. We have a structure here, ajar 13 doors; and we have a vapor arising out from those 14 doors. 15 Q. And who would have taken this photograph? 16 A. I did. 17 Q. And where is this photograph taken? 18 A. This is at the Baton Rouge facility. 19 Q. Of Ethyl? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. All right, sir. Now, if you would, tell 22 us what this has to do with dose-response in your 23 work. 24 A. To begin, in my profession, your job, you 25 do a walk-through survey. And you smell, observe,
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1 and look for probable cause. When you see vapor 2 like this, you'd say: Oh, that could be a big 3 dose. And so, that's where you start, with what 4 might be a big dose. 5 On investigation -- in -- in my 6 profession -- can you see this pump here --
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7 Q. Yes, sir. 8 A. -- on the chap's rear? And you see the - 9 the hose from the pump. This creates a negative 10 air, and tubing goes over. And on that person's 11 front part is a filter paper. And it catches the 12 chemical that would be in the air here. Okay? 13 So, my role, then, was to monitor, if you 14 will, the exposure for this individual. And you can 15 see the vapors. The individual is starting to - 16 standing at a rail. You can see this material. 17 This material then turned out to be barium chloride. 18 Q. Let me stop you, if I could. 19 A. Certainly. 20 Q. Can you tell us who took this picture? 21 A. I did. 22 Q. And -- and where was it taken? 23 A. Baton Rouge facility. 24 Q. Can you tell me about when each of these 25 two pictures, the first one we just saw and this
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1 one, was taken? 2 A. In 5 -- the slides have -- have dates on 3 them. And so, they were developed in 5-73, May of 4 '73. 5 Q. Okay, sir. And what about this picture 6 has to do with your evaluation of dose? 7 A. Okay. We could take the -- the data that
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt 8 we got from that catcher's mitt.
All of this
9 instrumentation is calibrated. We know how much air
10 is pulled through there. We time the -- the time
11 that the individual -- the pump was started to when
12 it was turned off. We submit the material on the
13 filter paper to a laboratory, and the laboratory
14 then tells how much they found.
15 We can integrate the amount of material
16 found with the time and the rapidity of the pump;
17 and we have a concentration, an exposure
18 concentration, for this individual. Okay?
19 Q. Are we seeing something in the air back
20 there, Mr. Taylor?
21 A. That's -- that's what we were measuring,
22 what was in the air. That was the purpose of this
23 whole thing. Obviously, there is something there.
24 Hey, is that a big dose of what, question mark?
25 Okay?
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1 Q. So, is what you're saying with these - 2 these two slides that we've seen, that your job as 3 an industrial hygienist is when you see something in 4 the air, that's a red flag that says you've -5 A. That's -6 Q. -- got to look further? 7 A. That's part of it, yes. And actually 8 that's a small part, but that's -- all right. 9 Q. What are we looking at here, sir?
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10 A. We're looking at the complete -- you -11 you can't see other than the individual's leg here. 12 You can see the bags of the barium chloride, and 13 vapor has filled the room. Okay? Now -14 Q. This is a slide you've taken -15 A. Yes. 16 Q. -- of the same era? 17 A. Yeah. It's following the other, 18 sequential. 19 Now, let's -- let's see what we've got. 20 MR. MARON: Can we go back and 21 identify for the record where this was coming 22 from? 23 BY MR. HOBSON: 24 Q. Where -- where was this slide -25 A. Yes. Now, well, when -- it's coming from
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1 the same process of the preceding one. Now -2 Q. That's at Ethyl in Baton Rouge? 3 A. -- it's a hot -- hot process. And now 4 we've gone through a mental gymnastic. Okay? But 5 on analysis, on -- on looking at the data from our 6 catcher's mitt, worn by this individual, we're 7 essentially talking about steam and a little bit, an 8 acceptable level, of barium chloride, as far as 9 health goes. The worst thing that could happen if 10 somebody got sensitive to barium chloride is they
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt 11 might get a little diarrhea. 12 But that's the nature of the 13 dose-response. You look for where the -- the injury 14 or you smell for where there might be an injury. 15 You listen for where there might be injury. And you 16 look -- prioritize by doing the worst case first. 17 And that certainly was a horrible thing. 18 Q. Now, these -- these first three slides, 19 all those were the same process at Ethyl in Baton 20 Rouge? 21 A. And there's no problem. There's no -- no 22 really health threat in any of that, despite how 23 terrible that looks. 24 Q. But you didn't know that until after you 25 made -
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1 A. That's right. 2 Q. -- your evaluation? 3 A. That's right. 4 Q. All right, sir. What are we -- is this 5 a - 6 A. Now -- now, we're at the same facility, 7 the Baton Rouge plant. And we're calling attention 8 to the maintenance shop. Another of the reasons 9 that people had to hire us to -- Ethyl Corporation, 10 was that the development of the OSHA Act, the people 11 would be working with asbestos. And here is an 12 individual, has got the pump on, has got the little
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13 tubing, he's got the catcher's mitt. And he is 14 using a band saw and cutting insulation, asbestos 15 insulation. Okay? 16 Q. Excuse me. Could you go back to that last 17 one? 18 A. Sure. 19 Q. Again, these are slides that you took? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And these are all at Ethyl in Baton Rouge? 22 A. That's right. 23 Q. And this man is cutting, with a band saw, 24 preformed asbestos-containing insulation? 25 A. Exactly.
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1 Q. All right, sir. 2 A. Okay. Now, I -- I would comment at the 3 onset that these gentlemen had access to showers and 4 clothing change. All right? Their -- their 5 clothing was provided and rules were such that they 6 would shower and wash up and -- good hygiene in 7 association with a potential toxic material. 8 Q. And what year was this? 9 MR. RICE: And respirator. 10 THE WITNESS: Beg your pardon? 11 MR. RICE: And respirator. 12 A. And respirator, absolutely. Okay? 13 That was in June of '73, I believe.
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt 14 BY MR. HOBSON: 15 Q. Okay. So, this is after the OSHA 16 regulations -17 A. Yeah. 18 Q. -- which would require these different 19 things? 20 A. Yeah. 21 Q. Now, I see kind of in the background there 22 it looks like a tube. Did this saw also have forced 23 exhaust ventilation? 24 A. Negative air. I -- I use the terminology 25 "negative air" ventilation
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1 Q. All right, sir. 2 A. And that's what I believe Hemeon would -3 would use . Okay. 4 So, now, here we have -- here's the -- the 5 other -- the front part of the catcher's mitt, if 6 you will. Okay? And you can see this operator over 7 here is wearing one, too. All right? And again, 8 they're - - they're cutting the preformed asbestos 9 material. 10 MR. SWEET: Object as nonresponsive. 11 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Object -12 THE REPORTER: I'm sorry, who was 13 that? 14 MR. LOKER: Object as nonresponsive. 15 BY MR. HOBSON:
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16 Q. Let me ask you, Mr. Taylor: This white 17 material that's on the top of the saw, what -- what 18 is that, sir? 19 A. That's asbestos-containing material 20 from -- these seams have been cut in that angle, 21 insulation angle (indicating). 22 Q. So, it's dust made by the saw in the 23 cutting -24 A. Yes. 25 Q. -- process?
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1 A. Uh-huh. 2 Q. And I see on the fellow's trousers, down 3 there on his leg -4 A. Right here (indicating). 5 Q. Yeah, that white -- would you know what 6 that was , sir? 7 A. That would be the same material. 8 Q. Is that why it is necessary to have people 9 have change of clothes and -- and dirty clothes 10 lockers versus their street clothes lockers? 11 MR. MARTIN: Objection, leading. 12 A. The double locker system developed out of 13 the tetraethyl lead operation, and I think the why 14 of it was that you'd have uniforms -- these were 15 maintenance workers. Okay? And they, at different 16 times, can work in different places in the
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt 17 facility. So, my understanding was that the 18 standard was that everyone was involved in that 19 Okay? 20 BY MR. HOBSON: 21 Q. So, not just insulation workers -22 A. That's right. 23 Q. -- at the Ethyl plant, but everybody? 24 A. Yeah. 25 Q. Okay, sir. What is this a -- a slide
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1 sir? 2 A. You mentioned a ventilation, the negative 3 air. We tested -- this is a smoke test to determine 4 if this is capturing the -- the fibers. There's a 5 down-draft. This is sucking from down here. And 6 this wasn't working as well as we would like, 7 obviously. 8 Q. You say a smoke tube. That's a -- a 9 little glass tube that you can blow air through and 10it will generate a visible smoke you can - 11 A. It had stannous - 12 Q. -- see? 13 A. At that time it hadstannictetrachloride 14 in it. And the moisture in the air would combine 15 with the chemical, the tin chloride; and you'd get 16 visible -- you can see just a wee bit of it here. 17 That's really solubilized hydrogen chloride on 18 moisture in the air, is -- is what you visualize.
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19 But it -- with this we can track whether that is 20 drawing. 21 Q. So, what you're really doing is making a 22 smoke so you can see where the air is going? 23 A. That's right. 24 Q. And see whether or not your - 25 A. At -
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1 Q. -- your hood is working? 2 A. At the same time, we see these materials 3 and something isn't working properly. 4 Another responsibility of the industrial 5 hygienist is to get that working properly, make 6 recommendations that -- that would comeabout. 7 Q. All right, sir. 8 A. And I had the ventilation experience 9 previously at TVA that they wanted. 10 Q. All right, sir. And what we're seeing now 11 on the left-hand side, that's the cutting blade of 12 the band saw, right where your pointer is ? 13 A. Here (indicating)? 14 Q. Yes, sir. That''s the blade of the band -15 A. Yes. 16 Q. -- saw? 17 A. Yeah. Yeah. 18 Q. All right, sir. And what do we see here? 19 A. Okay. Here you see two people. This is
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt 20 Transite. This has a higher concentration, usually, 21 of asbestos than the other material. 22 You can see that this individual has a 23 sampler on here and here. And again, we go through 24 the same gymnastic to determine the individual's 25 dose to this Transite material.
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1 Q. Now, did you take this picture? 2 A. Yes, I did. 3 Q. Is this also Ethyl in Baton Rouge in about 4 73? 5 A. Exactly. 6 Q. All right. And this -- when you say 7 Transite, that's the corrugated material you 8 sometimes see on the outside of buildings? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And they're cutting this with a table saw? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And does the table saw have ventilation on 13 it? 14 A. You can't tell from this picture. You 15 can''t tell from this picture. 16 Q. All right, sir. 17 A. Okay. 18 All right. This is an insulation work at 19 the Baton Rouge facility. 20 Q. What does this demonstrate, Mr. Taylor? 21 A. This individual is removing insulation, or
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22 replacing, one way or the other -- these were 23 removing it, actually, here. And you can see, 24 here's the little tubing. And we were monitoring 25 his exposure. Okay?
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1 Q. Now, at this point in time, when the 2 insulation is being removed, would you recall if 3 there -4 THE WITNESS: Try the adjustment a 5 little bit. 6 A. Go ahead. 7 BY MR. HOBSON: 8 Q. Would you recall if -- if this material 9 had been wetted before it was removed? 10 MR. RICE: Object. He did not say it 11 was necessarily being removed. 12 MR. HOBSON: I think he said it was. 13 A. Well, it -- here it's being removed, 14 obviously. You can see where they've cut, and 15 they've -- they're taking it off in -- in chunks and 16 disposing of it in a drum. 17 MR. RICE: Okay. 18 A. It was not removed wet. 19 BY MR. HOBSON: 20 Q. Okay. 21 A. It -- it wasn't sprayed or -- or spritzed 22 on. There's no -- well, you can't see there.
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt 23 There's -- there's no equipment to do that there. 24 Q. All right, sir. 25 A. Okay.
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1 Q. And what -- what does this show, just the 2 removal of the preformed insulation? 3 A. Right. And that, again, the dose, the 4 exposure dose, was -- never did find that out. 5 THE WITNESS: Turn that again and 6 get -- that will come a little bit better 7 than -8 MS. TAYLOR: (Complying) 9 THE WITNESS: Thanks, Pat. 10 BY MR. HOBSON: 11 Q. What is this slide, sir? 12 A. All right. Now, I might say that on the 13 asbestos, for the rules and regulations at that 14 point in time, we didn't find any negative thing. 15 There's work practices, the cleanliness and neatness 16 and so on and so forth. But the exposures at that 17 point in time would not overwhelm the respirator and 18 the rules and regulations at that time. 19 So, again, we have something that was 20 called to the attention by -- and required by 21 Federal OSHA; and the facility was coming along very 22 well. I was hired in to try to upgrade the 23 engineering control of that in this instance. 24 Okay.
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt 25 Okay. These three chaps -- again,
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1 pictures I took -- they work over in a cell area at 2 the Baton Rouge facility. They manufacture 3 electrolytic cells. 4 Q. What -- what are electrolytic cells in 5 that plant? 6 A. They're called down cells. The workers 7 would call them hooker cells. 8 THE WITNESS: That will come more 9 plain, Pat. 10 BY MR. HOBSON: 11 Q. This is for making chlorine, then? 12 A. And caustic, yes. Yeah. 13 So, here we have a worker that has a pump 14 on his back, sampler; and he is washing down the 15 inside of this tank. This is an asbestos slurry 16 tank. Okay? And we're monitoring his exposure 17 there. 18 The worker, without a respirator, is 19 dumping this long-fibered asbestos from South 20 America. 21 Here is another -- here is a pump tube, 22 another worker, his legs. And this, then, was a 23 chrysotile. The other stuff was amosite. Okay? 24 And there was a blend, so much of one and so much of 25 the other, that they would put into this tank.
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1 Okay? 2 Here you're looking into the tank and you 3 see the blend and there's some attempt to mix that. 4 Over here -- if you see this -- the chain 5 and the bar and the chain and you see this here, 6 you've got the cell base. Okay? 7 Here, a wire cage has been placed around 8 each little section. We're building a battery, 9 essentially. Okay? And we're creating -- probably 10 this would be the anode, the negative charge on -11 on the battery eventually. 12 Q. Now, what does the asbestos have to do 13 with this picture? 14 A. Right. Good question. You see there -15 here is our asbestos tank here. Okay? It has its 16 slurry in it. And the cell is being lowered by 17 those chains that we looked at -- the chain over 18 here. And it's being lowered into that slurry of 19 material. 20 What the operator does is draw this down 21 through -- from the inside. And it draws the 22 asbestos fibers around this cage until we form 23 something like this. Okay? We have the deposited 24 asbestos material around electrolytic element of the 25 cell, the future down cell.
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1 In addition, these workers -- and I might 2 say that all of these tasks were monitored. My 3 recall is that there was little or no exposure to 4 asbestos. At that point in time, there really was 5 no justification for their -- them to wear a 6 respirator. They had below a respirable exposure. 7 And the reason for it probably is -- is it's so 8 humid. 9 Baton Rouge -- I believe this was done in 10 the wintertime; but even Baton Rouge in the 11 wintertime has -- has its challenges. We attempt to 12 do things in the worst case kind of a situation and 13 found nothing alarming there. 14 Here is one of these -- the -- the cell 15 workers; and he's discharging pitch, coal tar pitch, 16 heated material, into a bucket. And what we have 17 here is, once we've made that base -- you recall the 18 asbestos base that we had -- then another cage goes 19 on the outside of that, probably becomes the 20 positive charge for the cell and the future cell. 21 And then the whole thing is -- the mass is fused 22 together in coal tar pitch. Okay. And with lots of 23 vapor. 24 Again, I took these pictures. 25 Q. And the vapor is coal tar pitch vapor?
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1 A. Yes. And it wasn't a particularly clean 2 blend or -- or whatever. It was least expensive on 3 the market type of -- of material. 4 MR. RICE: Object to the 5 responsiveness. 6 A. And -- and this is -- then starts to make 7 us think of, are there carcinogens there? 8 BY MR. HOBSON: 9 Q. And if we say "are there carcinogens," are 10 you talking about from the pitch? 11 A. From the -- from the pitch or the 12 material, the blend that it happened to be. 13 Q. Yes, sir. 14 A. Okay. Unknown. Really -- really, it 15 was... 16 Q. Was your thought there polynuclear 17 aromatic hydrocarbons? 18 A. Yes. And what we did was to sample 19 exposures to the different steps in the process with 20 high volume samplers, getting worst case exposures 21 than the employees were exposed to. 22 And I identified a woman in Cincinnati by 23 the name of Eula Bingham, Dr. Bingham. She 24 eventually became the head of OSHA and -- for a 25 period. And she looked at this for any known
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1 carcinogens, contact, respiratory, benzopyrene, that file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt (60 of 178) [4/6/2002 12:14:34 PM]
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2 type of thing. And this could not be detected in 3 this material. 4 Again, what we're talking about is 5 dose-response. A scary-looking picture with that 6 vapor coming out. One certainly can in this 7 instance smell something. And yet, at least at that 8 time, we had no -- nothing recognized to injure a 9 human being there in this process. 10 Here they're washing down the down cell. 11 Again, here is the sampling pump; and that was 12 characterized -- there was no need for that 13 individual, by exposure -- he -- he wasn't actually 14 receiving an asbestos exposure. No need for -15 Q. Excuse me. Could you go back to that -16 that slide, sir? 17 A. Certainly. 18 Q. What we're seeing here is that wire mesh 19 that earlier someone had put an asbestos coating 20 on. It had been used in the process. And now it 21 has to be redone. And so, you're washing off the 22 old asbestos coating? 23 A. Exactly. 24 Q. So, it's done wet? 25 A. Yeah.
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1 Q. It's done in an area that is ventilated, 2 to draw the air --
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt 3 A. Yeah. 4 Q. -- away from the man. You've got 5 engineering controls in place, and you've measured 6 to make sure that your exposures are what you want 7 them to be; is that right? 8 A. That's right. 9 Q. All right, sir.
10 A. This was the group of individuals. 11 They -- they did all of this work. And I put this 12 up there -- and beg your indulgence -- because this 13 is a tribute to them. It's the best work team I've 14 ever encountered in 40 years of industrial hygiene 15 work. They took care of each other. 16 Well, no, I've got a client in Petersburg 17 who -- who's as good. But that took 30 years to get 18 around to that. 19 This is a shot, again, of the maintenance 20 facility at the Baton Rouge plant from a particular 21 angle. Okay? Medical -- plant medical had had 22 complaints of sand getting in on these workers. 23 And if we turn around from there and look 24 over this way, you'll see here's a sandblast 25 operator. Okay? And the sandblast operator is in a
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1 breathing hood and air brought in, pushed in on -2 on that device; and he's manning this device that is 3 blasting, if you will, contaminate, whatever is on 4 the inside of that -- that pipe, and blasting it
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5 out. Okay? And we've been directed there by -6 essentially by the unions at the facility. 7 To solve this problem -- the complaint, we 8 waited -- we had to wait until we had the wind in 9 the direction from the blaster to the maintenance 10 shop. And we spread along the route, between them, 11 pieces of black paper. The black paper obviously 12 could catch the fallout, the sand. And so, four or 13 five, six different pieces of black paper 14 contained -- and this device is used to measure the 15 silica, capture the silica there. Okay? And it's 16 also -- and then there is also a device to capture 17 the lead that was there; because when they're 18 blasting, they would have lead. 19 So, we could get a relationship between -20 at the end of a day's work, between the 21 appearance -- we could give the operator something 22 that he could look at and say: Hey, if I put a 23 piece of black paper out there and if it gets to 24 look like this, we don't -- we want to avoid that. 25 Okay?
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1 So, then it established for the operator a 2 boundary for -- a safe boundary, if you will, for 3 people to approach that area. Okay. 4 Q. So, you -- what you're saying, if I'm 5 getting this right -- tell me if I'm not --
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt 6 A. Yeah. 7 Q. -- you were concerned with the possible 8 hazard from the sandblasting operation - 9 A. Yes.
10 Q. -- both from the sand and that came from 11 the -- the abrasive and from the lead that - 12 A. Yeah. 13 Q. -- was in the process equipment? 14 A. Yeah. 15 Q. And what you were trying to do was find an 16 easy way for the operator to know when he could and 17 could not do this work so it would affect other 18 people's health? 19 A. And the people in the maintenance area 20 were alerted to this; and they could protect 21 themselves, too. 22 Q. All right, sir. What 's this? 23 A. Okay. We're into the dose-response 24 business. This is the Detroit laboratory. They 25 take an automobile. They put it on a machine called
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1 the dynamometer, I believe. And they would -- they 2 would rev the thing up, and the discharge gases 3 would be analyzed. And that was -- I mentioned 4 Gary Ter Haar, Dr. Ter Haar. And that was one of 5 his functions. Okay? Dr. Ter Haar is now the 6 vice-president, I believe, of Ethyl Corporation. 7 Okay?
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8 This is a -- a shot of the Houston 9 facility. 10 Q. Now, what -- what was Ethyl's process 11 Houston? 12 A. It was a laboratory. And my function 13 there was to advise them on industrial hygiene 14 matters, laboratory, chemical exposures. 15 Q. So, this was an analytical laboratory? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. All right, sir. 18 A. And -- and a research laboratory, 19 analytical -- perhaps more -- this is where they 20 developed the tetraethyl lead. 21 Q. "This" being Detroit? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. All right, sir. And now we're looking 24 the Houston -25 A. Yeah, this is --
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1 Q. -- slide? 2 A. -- just a shot of the -- of the Houston 3 facility. I went over to the Houston facility or 4 they had me go over to the Houston facility and do 5 about the same thing with asbestos there that I did 6 here -- okay -- or over at the Baton Rouge -- that I 7 had done. And we went through that series of 8 slides.
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt 9 I also went over to the Houston facility
10 to represent Ethyl Corporation when they had an 11 aluminum alkyl explosion over there and -12 MR. LOKER: I object to this 13 photograph as being irrelevant and 14 inflammatory. 15 MR. RICE: I do, too. I mean I 16 don't think it has anything to do with our 17 inquiry. 18 THE WITNESS: Okay. 19 BY MR. HOBSON: 20 Q. Could you -- could you go past it, please 21 Mr. Taylor? 22 A. Sure. 23 When we're talking dose-response in 24 front -- and in that area of the world, there's a 25 thing they invented called Mardi Gras. It's --
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1 MR. LOKER: I object to this photo as 2 being irrelevant. 3 THE WITNESS: Okay. 4 A. The suggestion is that if you have too 5 much of a dose of this, you could become this. 6 Okay? Plant medical at Baton Rouge -- this is 7 medical-directed job -- had reported, had talked 8 about injury in maintenance workers. Remember the 9 dose-response? They talked about the response in 10 maintenance workers that they didn't understand.
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11 How come I would come up with safe exposures to 12 these materials and yet here were these injured 13 people? 14 So, we went back; and we started 15 evaluating -- here's a pump and the catcher's 16 mitt -- we started evaluating people's exposures 17 welding fume. 18 Q. First of all -19 MR. MARTIN: Let me object to the 20 responsiveness. 21 BY MR. HOBSON: 22 Q. -- let me ask you -23 A. Sure. 24 Q. -- this slide that we're looking at now 25 what, first of all, is it a picture of?
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1 A. It's a picture of an individual conducting 2 the process of welding -- he's welding on something 3 that we can't see right there -- in the shop area. 4 Q. All right, sir. And this is in an Ethyl 5 facility? 6 A. In the -- at the Baton Rouge facility for 7 Ethyl Corporation. 8 Q. And you took this picture? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And about what year would this have been 11 made, sir?
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt 12 A. That picture was taken in -- (reviewing 13 document) -- 1974. 14 Q. All right, sir. 15 A. All right. I want to take -- in addition, 16 another thing that I did at Ethyl Corporation and at 17 that -- in -- in service to Ethyl Corporation -18 MR. RICE: Herschel -19 A. -- was to teach people the safe use of 20 vinyl chloride. Vinyl chloride at that time had 21 become a highly suspect carcinogen. 22 MR. MARTIN: Objection, 23 nonresponsive. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to 24 interrupt you, sir. 25 MR. RICE: Same objection. Also I
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1 think not relevant to these cases. 2 Herschel, can we -- we've been going 3 about an hour or so. Can we take a break? 4 MR. HOBSON: Would it suit you to 5 take a break for a few minutes, Mr. Taylor? 6 THE WITNESS: I would like to go one 7 more, if I may. I need a break, too; but I -8 I would like to go one more. 9 MR. HOBSON: All right, sir. 10 THE WITNESS: And then you may want 11 to stick around, but we'll see. 12 A. So -13 BY MR. HOBSON:
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14 Q. Okay. You -- you told us, I think, 15 that -- that you -- you were involved in preparing a 16 program for Ethyl concerning vinyl chloride work. 17 A. Yeah. 18 Q. And that was -19 A. I mean -20 Q. -- part of your work as an industrial 21 hygienist? 22 A. Yeah. And in the documentation of the 23 handout, what I've highlighted in -- in that, in my 24 copy, is there were cancer warning signs put up. 25 We'll see one later. And our advice was, of course,
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1 a respirator should provide acceptable breathing air 2 quality. 3 MR. MARTIN: Objection, nonresponsive 4 and irrelevant. 5 BY MR. HOBSON: 6 Q. What -- what does that have to do with 7 dose and dose-response, Mr. Taylor? 8 A. If one has acceptable breathing -9 breathing air quality, they would have acceptable 10 dose. 11 Q. And the respirator takes the material out 12 of the air? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. All right, sir.
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt 15 A. Okay. 16 THE WITNESS : And then let's follow 17 Steve's -- Mr . Rice's suggestion, and let's 18 take a break. 19 MR. HOBSON: Thank you. 20 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're off the 21 record at 11: 15. 22 (A BRIEF RECESS WAS HAD) 23 MR. RICE: I just want to object 24 to the extent that we are going into matters 25 that are not cov- -- the subject matter of
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1 any of the cases that are involved in this 2 litigation, nor involving the plant sites 3 involved in this litigation. 4 And I think under the Texas Supreme 5 Court recent rulings, that that -- the question 6 of relevancy deals not only with 7 interrogatories but also the deposition 8 process, as well. So, I object to going into 9 any of this that -- that is not pertaining to 10 the chemicals at issue in this -- these suits. 11 THE REPORTER: Are we ready to go on 12 the videotape now? 13 MR. RICE: Yes. 14 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're on the 15 record at 11:34. 16 BY MR. HOBSON:
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17 Q. Mr. Taylor, if we may begin again, sir, I 18 think we were looking at some of your slides. And 19 you had told us that this was a welding shop, and 20 you were explaining what this had to do with your 21 work at Ethyl in evaluating dose. Would you -22 A. And my work was directed by -- in this 23 instance, directed by medical. Medical had a 24 specific interest in maintenance workers. 25 Q. What was that interest, sir?
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1 A. There was suspect injury or obvious 2 injury. 3 Q. Okay. And what were you doing here in 4 response to this concern for medical? 5 A. To see if there was an exposure to 6 anything that might cause injury. 7 Q. All right. And that's what you were 8 telling us about, this air mover and the tube; and 9 you pointed out this being on the slide, that this 10 is taking an air sample of the -- what the man was 11 breathing, at least a part of that? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. All right, sir. What are we looking at 14 here? 15 A. At that juncture I wasn't able to come up 16 with anything, really, that would scratch the itch 17 of medical's concern. However, the -- in thinking
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt 18 back with the sandblast operator -- and we saw that 19 the sandblast operator was receiving breathing 20 air -- I determined that we would set our 21 investigation on the breathing air as part of a 22 survey we'll talk about. So, these are the 23 breathing air inlets -- part of them -- for the 24 facility. 25 Q. Which facility is this?
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1 A. At the Baton Rouge plant. The Baton Rouge 2 plant did not, I learned, have a separate breathing 3 air line. They had a utility air line, a low 4 pressure air line that was fed by a regular piston 5 kind of -- of lubricating pumps. 6 And again, there is a sampler here. We 7 sampled the amount -- what -- we sampled the 8 chemicals that went into this combined pressure -9 air pressure line. Okay? 10 MR. WALL: Excuse me. Can I -- an 11 objection on the record. The camera is now 12 starting to show the slides, as opposed to the 13 witness. The camera should remain on the 14 witness. 15 MR. HOBSON: Okay. You can object. 16 Thank you. 17 MR. MARTIN: I also object as 18 nonresponsive. 19 A. In following through on an investigation
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20 into the breathing air line, this gentleman here, 21 plant employee, is using what's called a Draeger 22 pump. He's probably checking for carbon monoxide 23 coming out of the breathing air outlet. Okay? 24 BY MR. HOBSON: 25 Q. So --
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1 A. This -2 Q. Excuse me, Mr. Taylor. Can you go back to 3 that? Now, you -- the picture you showed us before 4 was the intakes to the compressors? 5 A. And this, then, would be the -- the 6 outlets from what the compressor had taken in. 7 Q. And this man has a little device that -8 that chemically will tell you whether or not there 9 is a contaminant in that air? 10 A. It will tell you whether they have carbon 11 monoxide in there. There was failure in their 12 compressor systems to shut down if they overheated. 13 When you overheat a -- a motor or a -- a pump, 14 then the lubricating oils of that device break down 15 and -- they're obviously admitted to that, because 16 they are checking for -- this plant personnel -17 checking -- I took the picture -- is checking for 18 breakdown products from that lubricating oil. 19 Q. Is that a potential hazard for the workers 20 who would be breathing this air, then?
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt 21 A. Yes, that's probably a carcinogen. 22 Q. All right, sir. 23 A. Or would have carcinogen material in it. 24 MR. RICE: I'm going to object to 25 the responsiveness.
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1 A. Okay. Then, this is the in turn. 2 That's -- this is a line right here. This is the 3 utility air line, with the side cap that could be 4 used for breathing air. 5 I call attention to this black material 6 here. If you've ever had the experience of having 7 heat by oil and you notice that when your furnace 8 starts to fail, you get this black smeech around the 9 outlets of the furnace. 10 That's what this is. That's a history of 11 this line, this utility air line, having this black 12 smeech. That is a forecast for the people who 13 breathe that air. That's what their lungs are going 14 to look like. Okay? 15 BY MR. HOBSON: 16 Q. So -17 MR. RICE: Object to -- excuse me. 18 I'm going to object to the speculative nature 19 of the -- of the response and also 20 nonresponsive, assumes facts not in evidence, 21 calls for speculation insofar as medical 22 opinions.
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23 BY MR. HOBSON: 24 Q. Mr. Taylor, the picture here that we've 25 got, is this an example of how an industrial
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1 hygienist can use their vision to look for potential 2 hazards and when you see something that doesn't look 3 right, then you investigate further and make the 4 necessary analyses? 5 MR. MARTIN: Objection, leading. 6 A. Yeah, absolutely, plus -7 THE WITNESS: They couldn't hear 8 you. I was talking. 9 MR. MARTIN: She heard me. 10 THE WITNESS: Oh, okay. 11 A. But when you see something like this -12 this is dose. This is the same thing as -- as a 13 human dose. All right? That's an index. It's an 14 indicator for that. Now -15 MR. RICE: Object to responsiveness. 16 A. -- the -- when this line was opened, there 17 was the most beautiful purple-spritzing vapor came 18 out. 19 BY MR. HOBSON: 20 Q. Excuse me. Why -- why would someone open 21 that line? What's its purpose? 22 A. To hook breathing air apparatus onto. 23 Q. Like a respirator?
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt 24 A. Yes.
25 Q. All right. And you say when you opened
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1 that line -2 MR. RICE: Excuse me. I'm going 3 to object to the responsiveness of the last 4 answer. 5 BY MR. HOBSON: 6 Q. When you op- -- did -- did you open the 7 line yourself, Mr. Taylor? 8 A. Yes. Yeah, I did. 9 Q. And -- and what did you see when you 10 opened the breathing air line? 11 A. A -- a purple-sprayed material -12 Q. And did you -- what did that mean -13 A. -- came out. 14 Q. -- to you? 15 A. Horrible risk for lung injury -16 Q. And what did you do? 17 A. -- body injury. 18 Q. What did you do about it? 19 MR. RICE: Excuse me. Object to 20 the responsiveness, speculation, calls for a 21 medical opinion. 22 A. Here is a letter from me to T.R. Robinson, 23 who is the medical director of the facility. And it 24 concerns a Comprehensive Industrial Hygiene Survey 25 Activity Summary, and it's dated 12-11-74. And it
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1 goes through -- you have this here. 2 And the overall activity, Item No. 6, it 3 says: We initiated a field survey to identify and 4 measure the chemicals inspired from the plants' 5 breathing air system. 6 Subtitle: Breathing air system. 7 (Reading) Based upon incomplete data from 8 the hydrocarbon and organic lead level areas, we 9 have found vinyl -- now, vinyl, remember, we have 10 the signs around that say, "Cancer, cancer suspect 11 agent" -- Okay? -- we found vinyl, ethyl chloride, 12 methyl chloride, ethylene dichloride, and 13 1-1 dichloride -- dichloroethane pass completely 14 through the combined utility - breathing air system. 15 BY MR. HOBSON: 16 Q. Okay. Excuse me. Are you saying you 17 found -18 MR. RICE: Excuse me -19 BY MR. HOBSON: 20 Q. -- these -21 MR. RICE: Excuse me. I'm going to 22 object to the responsiveness of the last 23 question. 24 BY MR. HOBSON: 25 Q. Are you saying that you --
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1 MR. RICE: He's reading from a 2 document that's not been identified. 3 BY MR. HOBSON: 4 Q. Are you saying that -- that you found 5 these materials in the air that people who would be 6 using air-supplied respirators would be breathing? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. And what would be some of the uses of 9 air-supplied respirators in the Ethyl plant? 10 A. The most prolonged use would be the 11 sandblast operator. And you remember, medical's 12 concern about maintenance people and the respiratory 13 injury. 14 Q. Okay. 15 A. They had response information that led to 16 that. We had previously sampled for those people's 17 exposure to silicon, to lead -- you saw that 18 dispersion, the black papers, and so on and so 19 forth -- and have found -- didn't find any problem. 20 Now we're looking at the life support, if 21 you will, for that individual. That individual or 22 that function had the longest usage of the breathing 23 air system. They wore it all day. 24 Q. Were there -25 A. Other people who wore this were people
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1 over in the tetraethyl lab -- tetraethyl lead 2 facility, methyl -- any -- the lead plant. They'd 3 use it in the vinyl chloride plant. They used it 4 in -- there's an analytical lab there; and at times 5 they used a respirator there, particularly in the 6 pilot plant facilities. They used this breathing 7 air throughout the whole -- whole 600 to 1,000 8 employee plant. 9 MR. MARTIN: Objection -10 BY MR. HOBSON: 11 Q. So, the -12 MR. MARTIN: -- nonresponsive. 13 BY MR. HOBSON: 14 Q. The maintenance workers that from time 15 time would be required to wear air-supplied 16 respirators, they would be getting their air from 17 the same system? 18 MR. MARTIN: Leading. 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 BY MR. HOBSON: 21 Q. And could that include people doing 22 insulation work from time to time? 23 MR. MARTIN: Calls for speculation 24 A. I don't know. 25 BY MR. HOBSON:
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt 1 Q. All right, sir.
Now, you -- you found
2 this problem --
3 A. I want to --
4 Q. -- with the breathing --
5 A. I want to continue now, please.
6 Q. What did you do when you found this
7 problem?
8 A. Wrote a -- wrote a letter.
9 Q. Okay. Now, the letter you said --
10 A. Talked verbally -- talked verbally, first,
11 with individuals because this was quite disquieting.
12 Q. Now, you say you wrote a letter.
13 That's --
14 A. I reported it.
15 MR. RICE: Object to the
16 responsiveness of the last answer.
17 Is there another copy of that?
18 MR. HOBSON: Somewhere there is.
19 THE WITNESS: Does someone have the
20 other file?
21 MR. HARVARD: It's down there.
22 THE WITNESS: Are you all using it?
23 If you're not --
24 BY MR. HOBSON:
25 Q. Mr. Taylor, when you say you wrote a
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1 letter, are you referring to this document that 2 you've provided us that says at the top "Ethyl
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3 Corporation," dated December the 11th, 1974, from 4 you, H.M. Taylor, to T.R. Robinson, M.D.? 5 A. Yeah. 6 Q. And the subject: Comprehensive Industrial 7 Hygiene Survey Activity Summary? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. So, you wrote this document? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And delivered it to Dr. Robinson? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. All right. And what was your response, 14 sir, when you delivered this? 15 A. My response? You asked for my response? 16 Q. What -- what response did you get, when 17 you delivered this to Dr. Robinson, from Ethyl 18 Corporation? 19 A. I essentially failed the corporation 20 because I didn't get any response. They didn't do 21 anything about this. 22 Q. Okay. 23 MR. RICE: Object to the 24 responsiveness. 25 A. Now --
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1 THE WITNESS: Well, he asked me a 2 question. 3 A. So, anyhow, I want to continue --
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt 4 MR. RICE:
Well, let me -- let me
5 just be clear.
6 THE WITNESS: Sure.
7 MR. RICE: I'm objecting to the
8 responsiveness of your answer. Okay?
9 Thank you.
10 THE WITNESS: Sure. I -- I'm with
11 you, Steve.
12 A. We haven't told the whole story yet
13 because the next sentence says: Furthermore --
14 MR. RICE: I object --
15 A. -- the concentration of these --
16 MR. RICE: -- to the side -- sidebar
17 comments.
18 A. We're still into the -- the dose stuff.
19 (Reading) Furthermore, the
20 concentration -- see, that's dose -- of these
21 chemicals is little diminished from the compressor
22 inlet to air line outlet.
23 Okay. It means if these chemicals got
24 into the system, they got into a person's lungs.
25 (Reading) Chemicals such as 1-1-1 --
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1 1-1-2 trichloroethane and chloroform have not passed 2 through the air system. We have found that almost 3 all organic lead is also removed before reaching the 4 breathing area. 5 It says "almost all." We found organic
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6 lead did get through the breathing air system. 7 Anyone that would breathe that would get a 8 dose of lead, however small. And remember that the 9 biological half-life of lead can -- is anywhere from 10 3 years to 20 years. 11 (Reading) During our survey, there were 12 signs which suggested the automatic controls -13 signs as shown on the slides, testing with the 14 Draeger pump -- the automatic controls which shut 15 down overheated air in the compressors are not 16 effective. 17 Okay. So, there's a lot of other sludge 18 that comes from chemical breakdown that was in that 19 breathing air system. 20 (Reading) Excessive heat -- excessive 21 heat decomposes compressor lubricating oils, and 22 these noxious materials are therefore introduced in 23 the breathing air system. 24 The document goes on to say that -- to 25 indicate that Taylor, me, had the -- was the
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1 principal in planning, training, program development 2 for this work. 3 This letter was sent to Wallace Armstrong, 4 who headed the manufacture of the tetraethyl lead 5 area; to J.J. Bergin, who was involved; to 6 D.E. Cooper; R.L. Hudson; B.F. (sic) Pancamo, who
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt 7 worked with us; to Dr. Rinehart; to W.C. Strader; to 8 J.D. Watts; to M.R. Zavon, who was then the medical 9 director; and to Don Park, who now is another
10 vice-president of Ethyl Corporation at this time. 11 MR. RICE: I object to the 12 responsiveness to -- of the non -13 nonresponsiveness of the answer. 14 BY MR. HOBSON: 15 Q. The -- this memorandum that you wrote, 16 Mr. Taylor, and -- and delivered to these various 17 people, these -- these people on the copy list, 18 they're all Ethyl employees? 19 A. Yes, from -- higher Ethyl -- Ethyl 20 management. 21 Q. All right, sir. Now, this breathing air 22 system that you're talking about, if -- if a 23 contractor were working on the premises and needed 24 breathing air, would the contractor be using the 25 same breathing air system?
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1 A. Yes, sir, to the best of my knowledge. 2 I -- I don't know that really happened, you -- you 3 know, but that's all that was available. 4 Q. All right, sir. 5 MR. RICE: Excuse me. I'm going 6 to object to the responsiveness as speculation. 7 BY MR. HOBSON: 8 Q. And what -- what response from Ethyl
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9 Corporation -- or what happened next with regard to 10 this breathing air situation that you documented in 11 your December 11th, '74, memorandum? 12 A. Nothing was ever done about it. That 13 happened -- that occurred in '74. We'll go through 14 some more documents. And I -- I left Ethyl in 1976, 15 disappointed that I hadn't been able to help them to 16 change this. The medical director left a year after 17 I did for the same reason. 18 MR. RICE: That's not true, by 19 the way. 20 THE WITNESS: All right. 21 THE REPORTER: Wait a minute. I 22 didn't hear you. 23 MR. MARTIN: Objection, 24 nonresponsive. 25 MR. RICE: That's just not true.
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1 THE WITNESS: All right. 2 MR. RICE: And he'll tell you that. 3 THE WITNESS: No, he wouldn't. 4 MR. RICE: Yes, he will. 5 THE WITNESS: Well -6 MR. RICE: Why don't you call him and 7 ask him? 8 THE WITNESS: I did. 9 BY MR. HOBSON:
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt 10 Q. Did you say you called the medical 11 director and asked him this -12 A. Yes. 13 Q. -- Mr. Taylor? 14 Who did you call? 15 A. Ted Robinson. 16 Q. And what did you tell Dr. Robinson? 17 A. Of my disappointment that this was never 18 remedied. Dr. Robinson portrayed -- presented to me 19 and his comment was, "And they never did anything 20 about it." 21 The report that I -- the big report -- I 22 don't have a copy of it -- okay -- the picture 23 spewing this material out is in that report, this 24 purple material. I was pressured into releasing the 25 report before it was finalized, by somebody who
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1 became an execut- -- vice-president at Ethyl 2 Corporation later on -- is now, I believe. 3 And the report had typos in it and was not 4 as clear as you'd really like in a final document. 5 That was viciously attacked; and Ted's comment to me 6 was, "The pictures were there. They should have 7 understood that." 8 THE WITNESS: And so, contrary to 9 what you say, Steve, to me, Ted was 10 disappointed in his ability to help the 11 organization. Okay?
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12 MR. RICE: Well, I'll tell you, two 13 days ago he told me that's just simply not 14 true. 15 THE WITNESS: All right. 16 MR. RICE: Okay? 17 THE WITNESS: All right. 18 MR. MARTIN: Object to 19 nonresponsiveness -20 MR. RICE: So, I object; and I object 21 to the responsiveness of the answer and -22 MR. MARTIN: -- further, hearsay. 23 THE WITNESS: I -- I'm reporting what 24 my experience was. 25 BY MR. HOBSON:
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1 Q. You're reporting to us your impression of 2 what you were told? 3 A. Yes. Okay? 4 Q. Yes, sir. Now, you say that as of the 5 time you left Ethyl in 1976, no changes were made in 6 the breathing air system that you know of? 7 MR. MARTIN: Leading. 8 A. That's correct. 9 BY MR. HOBSON: 10 Q. All right, sir. Now, you have another 11 slide? 12 A. Yeah. Let's --
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt 13 Q. What does this slide show? 14 A. This was -- this was at the Ethyl 15 facility, and this is simply a fluid gushing out 16 from a space. And it was meant to -- for me, to 17 remind me of how this appeared, when it spewed out 18 this purple material, okay, and that people were 19 breathing that. 20 MR. RICE: Excuse me. I'm going to 21 object to the responsiveness and to the comment 22 concerning the slide involving the -- something 23 coming out of the tank car. 24 BY MR. HOBSON: 25 Q. What is this --
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1 MR. RICE: It's not relevant. 2 BY MR. HOBSON: 3 Q. What is this slide here, Mr. Taylor? 4 A. This is a -- a slide -- this gentleman 5 assisted me, and he was -- he worked with me at the 6 Baton Rouge facility. His name is David Watts. He 7 worked with me at the Baton Rouge facility to do 8 some of the hands-on work. 9 There I see Mr. Martin with a smile on his 10 face, and he's looking at an old friend. 11 MR. MARTIN: With hair. 12 A. And -- but David is -- is handling this 13 hose. Where -- where you have the breathing air 14 outlets, then human beings would plug in this hose
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15 and could go off and do their task and the air would 16 feed the respirator that they were assigned to 17 wear. Okay? 18 BY MR. HOBSON: 19 Q. And Mr. Watts, at this time, was working 20 as an industrial hygienist for Ethyl? 21 A. Yes. And -- and he was assigned almost -22 well, you -- you have the amount of time he was 23 assigned; but the majority of his time was spent at 24 the Baton Rouge facility. And I would visit him at 25 least on a weekly basis, if not more, from my office
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1 and spend a day at the Baton Rouge facility and 2 review his work, edit his work, direct his work. 3 Q. Was it your impression that Mr. Watts, at 4 this time, even though he was young and fairly 5 recently out of school, was competently trained to 6 do the job that he had? 7 A. Yes; in an exemplary fashion, really. 8 Q. Now, you say Mr. Watts is demonstrating 9 how the breathing air hose would be hooked up? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And then this hose would be used to follow 12 the worker around, to provide the air to the 13 respirator the worker would be wearing? 14 A. That he was assigned to wear. 15 Q. All right, sir. And -- and this
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt 16 compressed air system literally went throughout the 17 Baton Rouge plant? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. All right, sir. Do you -- are there more 20 slides, or have we completed the slides? 21 A. Here is one of the signs at the plant. 22 Remember, we talked about vinyl going through the 23 system? 24 Q. Yes, sir, vinyl chloride? 25 A. And this -- the areas were posted as -- as
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1 a cancer suspect agent. This is the same material 2 that was passing through that breathing air system. 3 Q. And this sign -4 A. Or part of it, at least. 5 Q. This sign -6 MR. RICE: Object to the 7 responsiveness. 8 BY MR. HOBSON: 9 Q. This sign relates to vinyl chloride, then? 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. All right. Are there more slides, 12 Mr. Taylor? 13 A. One final one: We're shipwrecked in the 14 shark-infested waters, thousands of miles from land, 15 with no food or water. What should we do? 16 And it's: Try not to think about it. 17 And so, I egged with this problem for two
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18 years and opportunity presented itself and I left 19 Ethyl Corporation. 20 Q. Now, tell me, sir, what -21 MR. RICE: Now, excuse me -22 BY MR. HOBSON: 23 Q. -- what does this -24 MR. RICE: I'm going to object 25 to the responsive nature. There's no
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1 question -- there's no question. This is 2 totally irrelevant, inflammatory; and I 3 object to it. 4 BY MR. HOBSON: 5 Q. Mr. Taylor, tell us why -6 A. Yes. 7 Q. -- you have this slide here and what it 8 has to do with your situation at Ethyl. 9 A. To remind me that -10 MR. LOKER: I think the record 11 should reflect that the applause did not 12 emanate from this room. 13 THE WITNESS: Oh, I don't need 14 that. I don't think that needed to be said. 15 A. It was to remind me of the deep-seated 16 frustration I have in being paid by somebody who 17 wouldn't accept my advice -- wouldn't or couldn't 18 I don't -- I don't know -- but didn't accept my
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt 19 advice, to the best of my knowledge. 20 And I go on. You have documents in here. 21 I go on in '75. I was asked to go to the -- a 22 similar plant in Greece, where they manufactured 23 tetraethyl lead, became intimately involved and 24 aware of that situation and tried to turn it around 25 because the employees there were leaded. A number
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1 of them had high blood leads, elevated blood leads. 2 And the Greek plant was a -- a model for the -- a 3 copy of the Baton Rouge facility and modeled the 4 Baton Rouge facility quite well. 5 The problem reported, that you have there, 6 at the Ethyl Hellas in Thessaloniki, Salonika, 7 Northern Greece, in my opinion, was the inability 8 within the organization of manpower to recognize, 9 evaluate, and control a hazard potential in a 10 systematic and integrated manner. 11 And essentially I am saying it's a 12 management problem. Okay? And that's what I was 13 bucking, this -- when I did this in '75, that's 14 what I was bucking with that situation about the 15 breathing air in 1974. Okay? 16 MR. MARTIN: Objection, 17 nonresponsive. 18 MR. RICE: I'm going to object 19 to the soliloquy, nonresponsive nature of 20 whatever it was.
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21 BY MR. HOBSON: 22 Q. Mr. Taylor, let me ask you then -23 A. Yes. 24 Q. -- you visited this plant in -- in Greece, 25 was it?
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1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And did you encounter problems with the 3 management of Ethyl Corporation in Greece? 4 MR. RICE: I object to this as 5 totally irrelevant to anything in this 6 suit. 7 A. I discovered, yes, managerial problems. 8 BY MR. HOBSON: 9 Q. Did -- did you -- well, just tell us, 10 sir: What was, then, your overall impression by 11 this '75, '76 time period of Ethyl Corporation's 12 manag- -- management when it came to dealing with 13 industrial hygiene problems? What was your 14 impression, sir, of how they treated your concerns? 15 MR. RICE: I'll object, two 16 questions in one. We don't know which one 17 he's -- which one he's answering. And it 18 calls for speculation. 19 BY MR. HOBSON: 20 Q. What was your response -- well, let me get 21 it this way: In 1975, 1976, after you had done your
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt 22 breathing air survey and when you had gone to Greece 23 and done your plant survey there, give us your 24 impression of what you felt Ethyl's management's 25 attitude towards your work was.
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1 A. Their in- -- unresponsiveness portrayed an 2 attention to the bottom line, rather than worker 3 health. That's my response. You asked. 4 MR. RICE: Object to -5 BY MR. HOBSON: 6 Q. What did you do? 7 MR. RICE: -- the responsive 8 nature -9 A. Beg your pardon? 10 MR. RICE: -- calls for speculation. 11 BY MR. HOBSON: 12 Q. What did you do? 13 A. I tried not to think about it for a 14 while. Okay. 15 MR. RICE: Excuse me. I'm going to 16 object to the reference to the slide. 17 BY MR. HOBSON: 18 Q. Okay. What did you do next, after you 19 tried not to think about it for a while? 20 A. A headhunter came looking for me from 21 Stanford Research Institute, and they needed 22 somebody that was trusted by the petrochemical 23 business. And I said: Yes, I'll go to work for
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt 24 SRI. 25 Q. So, you quit the company?
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1 A. Yeah. 2 Document here showing the incorporation of 3 the company, my company, in January of '76. 4 Stanford Research Institute accepted that I was -5 had my own company; and they hired me, with my 6 company. A document that -7 MR. RICE: Excuse me. I'll object 8 to responsiveness. This is not responsive to 9 any question. 10 A. Okay. I -- I -- I said that I -- I would 11 like to pursue this to my resignation. These are 12 things that happened in my tenure while I was still 13 with this organization, with Ethyl Corporation. And 14 some of these documents are in here (indicating). 15 BY MR. HOBSON: 16 Q. All right, sir. 17 A. Okay. So that this is an application for 18 an engineer's license in California. Ethyl had 19 several facilities in California, plants in 20 California. And it would enhance Ethyl's situation 21 if I were to be a professional engineer in that 22 state. 23 So, what you have there is -- is the 24 document that made me a professional engineer in
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt 25 California in safety.
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1 1976, again, just trailing off all -- from 2 his last question, really, okay, this is a summary 3 of the -- of my work, dated March the 15th, '76. 4 No. 1 there, I was to advise J.D. Watts concerning 5 the daily conduct of the Comprehensive Industrial 6 Hygiene Survey. 7 On the -- Item No. 9, I had involvement 8 with the silica surveillance for a kyanite pilot 9 plant that was scheduled for later this spring. We 10 get into silica, use of respiratory devices over in 11 the research and development area, breathing 12 devices. 13 No. 11, assisted J.D. Watts, whose picture 14 you saw; T.R. Robinson, the medical director, to 15 complete an article about the Comprehensive 16 Industrial Hygiene Survey at the Baton Rouge plant, 17 to be presented at the same -- at the conference 18 where I was already slated to present a -- a paper. 19 And the -- I resigned from Ethyl Corporation May the 20 3rd, 1976. 21 And at that point, I'd like to eat lunch. 22 Q. Be -- before we stop here -23 MR. RICE: Well, before we do 24 anything, I'd like to object to, again, the 25 dialogue with the soliloquy; and it's not
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1 responsive to any question. 2 BY MR. HOBSON: 3 Q. Mr. Taylor -4 A. Yeah. 5 Q. -- the one document that you described, 6 the May -- I'm sorry -- the March 15th, 1976, 7 memorandum written by you, addressed to To Whom It 8 May Concern - 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. -- and the subject isH. Taylor's 11 Activities through April 15, 1976 - 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. -- what was thepurpose of you having to 14 write this memorandum, sir? 15 A. To focus where my life was. These are 16 things that I had been told, had been hired, had 17 involved, that I should do. And I summarized those 18 things. At this juncture I had had an offer from 19 Stanford Research Institute to go to work for them. 20 And I focused my life. 21 Q. And when you say you focused your life, 22 you mean your life at Ethyl? 23 A. Yes. My professional life, if you will, 24 at that time. 25 Q. Did -- did you get to make this
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1 presentation at the 1976 National American 2 Industrial Hygiene Conference? 3 A. Yes, I did, under -- under Ethyl's flag. 4 Q. Now, you wrote a letter of resignation. 5 And that letter really says, "Ethyl Corporation, 6 Interoffice." So, I guess it's, in essence, a -- a 7 memorandum. 8 A. Uh-huh. 9 Q. May 3rd, 1976, from you to Gary 10 Ter Haar -11 A. Yes. 12 Q. -- the subject, "Personal employment 13 resignation." 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And you wrote this document? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Tell us, again, sir, why it was you felt 18 you had to resign from Ethyl. 19 MR. RICE: Object, already asked 20 and answered. 21 A. The organization, knowing my expertise and 22 singular commitment to other people's health, for 23 one reason or another, did not respond to me nor did 24 they correct the disquieting that I had from finding 25 the dose information in the breathing air that we
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1 spoke about. 2 BY MR. HOBSON: 3 Q. Now, were you reporting to -4 MR. RICE: Excuse me. 5 BY MR. HOBSON: 6 Q. -- Dr. -7 MR. RICE: I object to the 8 responsiveness of the answer. 9 BY MR. HOBSON: 10 Q. Did you report to Dr. Ter Haar at the time 11 of your resignation? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Did you feel, as you viewed the situation, 14 that Dr . Ter Haar had been supportive of your 15 actions to get the breathing air situation changed? 16 A. I don't think it was a fair thing for 17 Dr. Ter Haar. I think he was new in his -- his job 18 there. 19 Zavon had left. I believe Zavon -20 Dr. Zavon was terminated for a cause unknown to me. 21 And there was an interim time there where we did not 22 have a medical director. 23 Dr. Rinehart was doing as much as he could 24 in an already horribly full schedule. And when the 25 new medical director turned out to be a nonmedical
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1 director -- a nonmedical man, then I could see the
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt 2 concept of dose-response leaving the organization. 3 MR. RICE: Excuse me. Object to 4 the responsiveness -- or nonresponsiveness of 5 the answer. 6 BY MR. HOBSON: 7 Q. Did you -8 MR. RICE: Excuse me. I also 9 object. Could we take this off, please.
10 There's no reason to have -11 THE WITNESS: Sure. 12 MR. RICE: -- that up there. 13 THE WITNESS: Shut it off, will you? 14 MR. RICE: I object to it -15 THE WITNESS: Oh, Pat -16 MR. RICE: -- being on. 17 THE WITNESS: -- swing the whole 18 thing around before -- I'll get it. 19 BY MR. HOBSON: 20 Q. If you would, I -- I want to ask about 21 some of these earlier -- excuse me -- earlier slides 22 later. So, if we can, leave it set up. 23 A. Oh, sure . Okay. 24 Q. There was a time, though, that after you 25 wrote your 1974 memorandum, that Dr. Zavon was the
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1 medical director? 2 A. Yes. I remember Dr. Zavon coming in when 3 we presented formal -- this wasn't the only thing
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4 written on the breathing air. Okay? It's the only 5 thing I have left. But it wasn't the only thing 6 written on the breathing air. 7 And Dr. Zavon worked very hard to try to 8 do his job. He came on board when -- there had been 9 a horrible accident at the Baton Rouge facility. An 10 employee was poisoned with lead, and he died seven 11 days later in a hospital. 12 And I can remember hearing a word, "shit," 13 come from Dr. Zavon's office. It was reported to 14 him, and he came out very dejected and told us -15 came into my office and told me that this man has 16 died. Here is a man; he's dedicated to that not 17 happening. So, he was in a crush of -- of that 18 circumstance. 19 At the same time we had written this 20 breathing air business. At a later date he came in 21 and asked me who had gotten the concept for this 22 breathing air, the comprehensive Baton Rouge survey, 23 Comprehensive Industrial Hygiene Survey. 24 And I did. And we had a conversation 25 about that.
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1 Q. Did you feel that -2 MR. RICE: Excuse me. Object to 3 the responsiveness of the last answer. 4 BY MR. HOBSON:
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt 5 Q. Did you feel that -- that Dr. Zavon and 6 Dr. Rinehart were supportive of your efforts to 7 change the breathing air system as a result of this 8 comprehensive survey? 9 A. Supportive in a way that they did not tell
10 me not to do it. They allowed it to go forward. 11 Without funding, without their permission, it 12 couldn't -- I couldn't go forward. If they got up 13 and got on a platform somewhere, I don't know. 14 MR. RICE: Objection to the 15 responsiveness of the answer. 16 MR. HOBSON: Let's -- let's take 17 a lunch break. Could we go off the record? 18 THE WITNESS: Great. 19 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're off the 20 record at 12:13. 21 (A RECESS WAS HAD FOR LUNCH) 22 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're on the 23 record. 24 BY MR. HOBSON: 25 Q. Mr. Taylor, if we may begin after lunch
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1 again, sir, in going through some of the documents 2 you brought today, I think we're up to -- at least 3 in the tabbed booklet -- No. 13. Can you tell me 4 what Item No. 13 is, sir? 5 A. It's a presentation that I made for COESH, 6 which is an organization in Stanford Research
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7 Institute. What's important there is the date, 8 December 7, '76, that then I had left Ethyl 9 Corporation and was working for Stanford Research 10 Institute. 11 Q. All right, sir. 12 A. And doing teaching and doing dose res- -13 dose information and response information for 14 Stanford Research Institute. 15 Q. Now, this example that you've got here of 16 the December 7, 1976, item, this is an example of 17 the course you were teaching? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Outlined? 20 A. Yeah. 21 Q. I see here that you've got under 22 "Preparation," "Learn the process." By that do you 23 mean that before you can do anything as an 24 industrial hygienist, you must know the materials in 25 the workplace before you can begin?
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1 A. To be effective, that's been my 2 experience, yes. 3 Q. And how long, sir, did you stay with 4 Stanford Research Institute? 5 A. Okay. I was with SRI from '76 -- I'm 6 searching my papers here -- '77 and '79 -- I'm 7 sorry, that's -- '76 to '77, I believe.
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt 8 Q. And now, Stanford Research Institute, or 9 SRI, that's a -- an organization out on the West
10 Coast, in -- in California? 11 A. In Menlo Park, California. 12 Q. And - 13 THE REPORTER: The name of the town? 14 THE WITNESS: Menlo Park. 15 MR. HOBSON: Menlo Park. 16 BY MR. HOBSON: 17 Q. Now, what kind of work were you doing, 18 title-wise, at SRI? What was your job title? 19 A. I was a project leader and headed up teams 20 of individuals. For instance, I had seven graduate 21 students from Stanford University work with me, who 22 were learning about instrumentation and industrial 23 hygiene. These were graduate industrial hygienists 24 with master's degrees from a pretty good school. 25 And so, I provide training for them and
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1 then would respond to the needs of the SRI clients 2 to investigate chemicals across the United States. 3 They would have contracts, for instance, with OSHA 4 or NIOSH, with the Federal Government, to 5 investigate chemicals. 6 One of the projects where I was a project 7 leader, they used matrix -- matrix organization 8 study, at the same time I wrote ventilation things 9 as a member of the committee, for getting rid of
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10 uranium in the United States. So, you worked both 11 for people and you have people work for you type of 12 thing. 13 And -- and the -- as a project leader, 14 then, I investigated chemicals, in particular 15 chemical benzyl chloride, was the stem chemical for 16 Monsanto and for -- deeply involved in the Stauffer 17 organization, as I understand it. 18 Q. This work that you did at SRI for 19 benzyl chloride, did you say? 20 A. Yeah. 21 Q. Can you give me just a quick overview as 22 to what the scope of that project was and -- and if 23 it concluded, what kind of results you -- you had? 24 A. I would -- my purpose was to go out and 25 track what people's exposures had been or might have
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1 been 20 years before and then to determine a 2 preliminary investigation of is there anything that 3 indicates there was disease in the population -- if 4 you will, the rudiments of epidemiology. 5 As such, I got into a Stauffer facility in 6 New Jersey and found a population who had been at 7 risk for 20-some years. And boys, they had 8 reasonable health. They had -- they had good 9 health. And reported that to my employer, 10 transmitted to the Federal Government. And it was
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt 11 learned that the Federal Government was not 12 interested in anything other than negative 13 information. 14 It was an unnerving experience for me, and 15 I then sought other employment. 16 Q. And where did you go after SRI? 17 A. The Allied Chemical had -- had the 18 experience with Kepone and contacted me and asked me 19 to go -- I became employed eventually with Allied. 20 Q. Who - 21 A. As the - 22 MS. COLLINS: I object as - 23 A. As the head of - 24 MS. COLLINS: -- unresponsive. 25 A. As the head of industrial hygiene for the
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1 fibers division -- not corporate, but for fibers 2 division. It's a group of seven plants, I believe, 3 at the time, along the East Coast area. 4 BY MR. HOBSON: 5 Q. Because of the objection, let me ask 6 you - 7 A. I didn't hear the objection. 8 Q. Well, it's hard to hear because of the 9 noise next door and the air-conditioner and -- and 10 everything else. But she said that you were not 11 responsive to my question -- I think was her 12 objection.
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13 A. Okay. 14 Q. What was your job title when you first 15 became employed with Allied? 16 A. Industrial hygienist, I believe, or 17 division industrial hygienist. 18 Q. And which division was this, sir? 19 A. Fibers division. 20 Q. And what made up the -- the fibers 21 division of Allied when you were the division 22 industrial hygienist, as best you recall? 23 A. There was a chemical manufacturing 24 facility in Hopewell, Virginia. Their chief product 25 was caprolactam, which was their core chemical to
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1 make nylon. Oh, they had a -- an exotic plant 2 there -- I don't recall what they manufacture. It 3 was a high-risk facility. They manufactured 4 fertilizer there, had a -- a huge fertilizer 5 building; and they made chemicals, perhaps, that 6 contributed to manufacture of caprolactam. 7 In the chemical plant, one tries to use 8 all of the bits and pieces; and that's how it is one 9 gets a -- a core chemical. And then you build 10 different things from that. 11 Q. The - 12 MS. COLLINS: Let me just impose 13 an objection as to the speculative nature of
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt 14 parts of his testimony. 15 BY MR. HOBSON: 16 Q. When I hear Hopewell, Virginia, and 17 Allied, I think of Kepone. Did you have anything to 18 do with Kepone? 19 A. As a -20 MS. COLLINS: I object to the 21 question as irrelevant. 22 A. As a follow-up, it was incidental to my 23 investigation that we'll -- we'll talk about in -24 in a bit. Kepone got in the way of -- of me doing 25 my job because it -- it -- it naturally frightened
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1 the people at the Hopewell facility and put everyone 2 on their guard, so to speak. 3 BY MR. HOBSON: 4 Q. You mentioned a -5 MS. COLLINS: I'm going to object -6 A. But I -- I went -7 MS. COLLINS: -- to the answer -8 this answer as it's nonresponsive and move 9 to strike, to the extent it calls for 10 speculation. 11 BY MR. HOBSON: 12 Q. You mentioned a project, Mr. Taylor, 13 that -- that you were involved in with Allied. Can 14 you tell us what project this was, sir? 15 A. Project with Allied?
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16 Q. You said you were going to talk about a 17 project with -- in a moment. And I was trying to 18 find out what that project was. 19 A. Let's -- all right. In response to that, 20 I appeared under Allied's banner in April 11th, 21 '78 -- I'm leading up to the -- the project -- as 22 the -- here -- division industrial hygienist, fibers 23 division, Allied Chemical -- okay -- at the American 24 Health Conference. I believe it was in Atlanta that 25 year.
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1 In -- December 12th and 13th, '78, I 2 developed a workshop, pooled people together, for 3 the first time, from across the wide spectrum of 4 safety and health professionals from the fibers 5 division. We had people at the Hopewell plant who 6 didn't know the people from an Allied plant in the 7 same division 3 miles or 5 miles away. 8 The people trying to protect the employees 9 at Allied, some of them had information that would 10 be valuable to other -- other people, at other 11 locations. And our endeavor then was to bring these 12 people together and start to develop a -- a team -13 this is following the Kepone; everyone is pretty 14 well crushed -- and try to get some team spirit 15 going again, get them to make new friends and share 16 information, constructive information, for their
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt 17 employees. Okay. 18 Q. How did you go about doing this, 19 Mr. Taylor? 20 A. In that -- in the course of that, we 21 issued, early on in the training, a form that 22 asked: How do you rate your locations' occupational 23 and health program and so on and so forth? 24 And it also included a No. 4: At your 25 location what are your location objectives for
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1 occupational health during 1979? 2 In that, then, I had a report back that 3 they wanted to reduce oil mist. I knew about that. 4 They wanted to reduce Dowtherm va- -- vapor. I knew 5 about that. But there was one that said they wanted 6 to reduce lactam va- -- vapor. 7 And I -- lactam was the way the hands-on 8 people -- or the people who are working with the 9 chemical called caprolactam -- manufactured over at 10 the Hopewell facility. 11 So, I received an invitation from the 12 Hopewell facility. And remember, I had this 13 philosophy that you really have to know the process 14 first. So, I went over there for maybe a month. 15 And they took me by the hand and led me through 16 their process. 17 And I worked fairly closely with -- with 18 somebody who was rewriting. After the Kepone, they
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19 had an organizational restructuring; and this 20 facility was taken from one division and put over in 21 the fibers division. 22 And so, they had fibers division personnel 23 rewriting all of the instructions, operating process 24 instructions. And the chap -- I don't recall his 25 name; but he was very, very knowledgeable. And he
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1 worked with people in the different divisions of 2 manufacture to describe what their process was. So, 3 I did learn their process quite well. 4 In the back of my mind, I had this concern 5 by some safety or health professional of -- to 6 reduce the lactam vapor. 7 Q. Let me -- let me ask you: The form that 8 you say -- that you're referring to here that asks: 9 What are your location objectives for occupational 10 health during -11 A. Uh-huh. 12 Q. -- '79, who was responding with -- to this 13 form? 14 A. People from the many sites in the fibers 15 division. 16 Q. Would these be manufacturing employees 17 or -18 A. It would be whoever was assigned by the 19 plant manager to attend this meeting. Everyone, I
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt 20 think, had to send something -- someone to the 21 meeting. 22 Q. And the topic of the meeting was... 23 A. Occupational health meeting. Okay. 24 MS. COLLINS: Mr. Hobson , if I 25 may, the witness is referring and using
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1 various materials. And I just would like 2 to get it on the record that copies of those 3 materials will be made so that Counsel can 4 have copies of all the documents that he's 5 brought with him here today. 6 MR. HOBSON: Yeah. That's my 7 intent, except for the textbooks, which I 8 think are available on the public record. 9 At some point we'll read in which texts and 10 what editions they are. And then if Mr. Taylor 11 will be so kind as to have these documents 12 reproduced. And if they're color documents, 13 have them color -- color laser copies at the 14 court reporter's expense, so they can be 15 attached. And we'll make them all available, 16 assuming we can get through the logistics, 17 and he keeps his documents in the original 18 form. 19 MS. COLLINS: Okay. 20 A. Okay. I - 21 MR. JONES: Could I suggest we
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22 Xerox the title page of the texts? 23 MR. HOBSON: Yes, that's fine. Be 24 a good idea. 25 Can you do that for us, Mr. Taylor,
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1 the -- or maybe we can do it before we get 2 away, but make sure we get a copy of the 3 title page of each of the texts that shows 4 their name and -- and the edition? 5 THE WITNESS: Okay. 6 A. I issued at the end of the two days a 7 Certificate of Charter Attendance. And it's 8 entitled: Fibers Division First Occupational Health 9 Meeting. 10 Okay. And I think that covers the -- the 11 title that you were searching for. 12 BY MR. HOBSON: 13 Q. Now, what -14 A. Okay. 15 Q. What was the -- the reason that this first 16 occupational health conference was set up, as far as 17 you appreciated it? 18 A. Do you remember when we talked about Ethyl 19 Corporation, I was hired to Ethyl Corporation 20 because the dose-response relationship was upside 21 down? They had a tremendous amount of response 22 information, little or no dose information. In
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt 23 Allied's they had neither dose information nor 24 response information. Okay. 25 The physicians -- I had worked with some
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1 of the best in the world, of course, with Ethyl; and 2 the physicians were people, family doctors, from the 3 community who just weren't into trends in disease or 4 anything other than to -- more first aid. 5 Q. Are you talking about the doctors that 6 Allied had hired to service its plants -7 A. Yes. 8 Q. -- in your division? 9 A. Yeah. And so -10 MR. RICE: Excuse me. 11 THE WITNESS: Surely. 12 MR. RICE: I'll object to the last 13 response as nonresponsive. 14 A. And so, here, I was a dose fellow who had 15 just not too long ago come from a situation where we 16 had tremendous response information and direction 17 from medical to a situation where the medical that 18 talked to me was as blind as I was. 19 And response information or -- or dose 20 information, without response information, was a 21 waste of my employer's wealth, so that then I had a 22 complaint of -- a concern to reduce lactam vapor. 23 I asked the Hopewell site for a copy of -24 and they gave me the death certificates for 400 --
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt 25 approximately 400 people who had died at that
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1 Hopewell facility since its inception, that Allied 2 would know about. 3 And I took those certificates -- took them 4 home, really, because it's a tremendous chore to do 5 by hand. And I listed all of the people who had 6 died, the cause of death, and what department they 7 worked in, what was their job title - 8 BY MR. HOBSON: 9 Q. Was this - 10 A. -- from the death certificate. 11 Q. Was this before the first occupational 12 health workshop or after? 13 A. After. 14 Q. Okay. So, I'd like to go back. Now, you 15 get to Allied; and you feel that the response and 16 the dose information is not there the way you wanted 17 it; right? 18 MS. COLLINS: I'm going to object 19 to the question as leading and also object to 20 his response and move to strike, that it's 21 nonresponsive. 22 BY MR. HOBSON: 23 Q. Am I right, sir? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Okay. And --
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1 A. That's what I was trying to say. 2 Q. Yes. 3 A. Go ahead. 4 Q. And you sent out this questionnaire to 5 learn something about the fibers division's 6 facilities and -- and their concerns that their 7 people :had; correct? 8 A. That's right. 9 Q. And then, in response to this form, you 10 decided that there needed to be a workshop on 11 occupational health? 12 A. Well, collectively -13 MS. COLLINS: Object to the form -14 A. -- the -- the group did. 15 MS. COLLINS: -- as leading. 16 A. I didn't have the authority to decide that 17 or make -- make that happen. All right? I had a 18 functional -- I had no administrative responsibility 19 at all. 20 BY MR. HOBSON: 21 Q. Did you recommend such a conference? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And did -24 A. And encouraged for it and, in fact, 25 brought it off.
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1 Q. Now, you had the -- the workshop meeting. 2 And what was the purpose of the workshop meeting? 3 A. To introduce these individuals to 4 industrial hygiene practices, to encourage that -- I 5 had had the experience at Ethyl Corporation where 6 one person cannot monitor the world. 7 So, by that time, we had gotten to the -8 I had grown to the point where I needed to have a 9 representative in each of the facilities that could 10 reliably monitor whatever their problems were in 11 that, ranging from a chemical facility to a plastics 12 organization to different -- different plants. 13 Q. So, your purpose -14 A. And so, the purpose was to develop -- help 15 to start. This is a -- the kindergarten, the first 16 grade of developing that strength within -17 Q. Basically -18 A. -- the fibers division. 19 Q. Basically you were networking the people 20 at the plants to get your program off the ground? 21 A. Yeah. Yeah. 22 Q. Now, once you held the workshop -- well, 23 first of all, the -- the book that you have there in 24 front of you, is that the -- the contents of what 25 you presented at the workshop, as well as
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1 photographs of people who attended? 2 A. That's correct. 3 Q. And would the -- the contents of this book 4 cover the subjects that you presented at this first 5 workshop on occupational health? 6 A. Yes. And it was distributed to each of 7 the sites and to my supervisor's supervision. And 8 here is the -- the fellow who was the -- the boss of 9 the Hopewell plant. He received a copy of it. 10 Q. Now, did they -11 A. As -- as well as other plant managers. 12 Q. So, did -- did these people on the 13 distribution list get a copy of -- of all the 14 material that you presented? 15 A. They got a copy of the whole thing. 16 Q. Just like it sits there in front of you? 17 A. Yeah. 18 Q. Okay. Now, after the workshop and you had 19 this interest in reducing lactam vapor, what did you 20 do? 21 A. Approached the Hopewell facility, the 22 chemical manufacturing facility; and they allowed me 23 or conducted me through, helped me through, to 24 understand the process, their various manufacturing 25 areas there. And as I say, this was a -- a daily
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2 Q. So, this was your attempt to recognize 3 what -4 A. I -5 Q. -- was in the workplace? 6 A. I wanted to see where this lactam vapor 7 was that this individual had a concern about. 8 Q. Did you get to find that area? 9 A. No. My -- I -- I thought I did. But the 10 method that they sampled the lactam by probably was 11 defective. I had -- I had come from Ethyl 12 Corporation, where we had learned how to sample both 13 particulate material and vaporous material in the 14 same sampling system, so that the analytical results 15 that Allied was reporting probably were only partial 16 results. They missed the vapor entirely. Vapor 17 will go through the filter, perhaps. Okay? 18 I worked with the 3M people and came up 19 with another sampling device. Never got off the 20 ground. And then I -- I was terminated from 21 Ethyl -- or from Allied before I could get that 22 underway. 23 Q. Was there a reason for -24 A. Basically that's -- that's one -- one 25 thing.
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1 The other thing was, see, I was cut off 2 from dose information that was -- would be
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt 3 reliable. To a scientist, the way they were doing 4 it wasn't reliable -5 Q. So, let me stop -6 A. -- and I didn't have any response 7 information. That motivated me, then, to say: Hey 8 I need to go to the next level and inquire for the 9 death certificates.
10 Go ahead now. I'm sorry. 11 MS. COLLINS: Object, move to strike 12 as not -- not responsive to the question. 13 BY MR. HOBSON: 14 Q. You were trying to find out what the 15 exposures in the workplace to lactam are; right ? 16 A. And if they're of any consequence. 17 Q. Yes, sir. 18 A. To -- to the -- the best of our knowledge 19 at the time, these exposures were not of 20 consequence. 21 Q. And the analytical method that you were 22 using to try to find out how much lactam was in the 23 air you didn't think was adequate? 24 A. That's right. 25 Q. Okay. And that's -- you had to have a
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1 reliable air sampling method in order to determine 2 the dose for the dose-response relationship? 3 A. Correct. 4 MS. COLLINS: Objection, leading
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5 BY MR. HOBSON: 6 Q. Now -7 THE WITNESS: That's what I said, 8 though. 9 BY MR. HOBSON: 10 Q. Now, you -- you worked on the dose side; 11 and now you decide it's time to work on the response 12 side; correct? 13 A. That's right. 14 Q. What did you do? 15 A. I approached the -- the head of personnel 16 at the plant -- and I -- I don't know his name 17 anymore -- with my quandary. This is it. And asked 18 him if I might have -- I -- I think perhaps rather 19 than the originals -- I don't think he gave me the 20 original death certificates. I believe he gave me 21 copies of them. 22 Q. What did you do with them? 23 A. This was a horrendous task. I already had 24 a job and a half. 25 I took those home and listed by hand, as
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1 did my first wife and two daughters, who were still 2 at home, and listed out the names of all of these 3 people who had died, these 400 people, their job 4 titles, and cause of death as -5 Q. Why would you --
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt 6 A. -- listed on the certificate. 7 Q. -- do that? Why would you do that? 8 A. We're looking to see if there is a disease 9 that is unsuspected and -- that's why.
10 Q. Did you report back your findings to 11 anyone there at Allied? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. What did you do? 14 A. I don't remember exactly the reporting 15 procedure. Okay? But the findings that were 16 alarming to me, that there is a job description 17 called a process engineer. And 8 out of 11 of the 18 deaths in that group were from pancreatic cancer. 19 Pancreatic cancer is a rather rare cancer, 20 and the proportion that had pancreatic cancer was 21 rather high for such a rare occurrence, would be 22 occurrence across the country. 23 And so, I investigated what did these 24 people do? They're -- they worked over in the 25 lactam facility, and their responsibility was to
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1 keep that plant going, hell or high water. So, if 2 that plant broke down in the middle of the night, 3 they were aroused from their beds and they went over 4 and stuck their finger in -- in the hole or whatever 5 it took. Their job was -- without any challenge, 6 was to keep that plant going. 7 Q. Was this a red flag to you that this
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8 needed to be investigated further? 9 A. Yes. 10 MS. COLLINS: Objection, leading; and 11 I'm going to move to strike his testimony 12 previously as speculative in the areas in which 13 he's not qualified to testify. 14 BY MR. HOBSON: 15 Q. What did you do next, Mr. Taylor, when -16 when this came to your attention and you saw this 17 information? 18 A. I reported it to my immediate boss, to his 19 boss. I reported -- I can remember making a 20 presentation of this to the manager of that, 21 Frank -- at the Hopewell facility. 22 Q. What response did you get to your 23 presentation? 24 A. There I got a response, and it was -- it 25 was, at least from those people that I was working
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1 with, of disbelief. Here was somebody hired in, the 2 first industrial hygienist. They really didn't know 3 what that was. And then all of a sudden, I come up 4 with the main chemical for the plant caused 5 pancreatic cancer; and it was alarming to them. 6 I was informed that they sent the 7 information that I had gathered to a physician in 8 Tennessee, who has worked independently. And in a
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt 9 while he came back with the results; and he says:
10 Hey, that -- there is a problem. 11 Q. Do you know who that person was? 12 A. No -- Theodore -- Ted Robinson would know 13 him because Ted Robinson knew of him. 14 And I reported it to Dave Frazier, who 15 I -- helped me get my master's degree in industrial 16 hygiene at -- and before I left -- see -- see, what 17 they wouldn't do is warn their employees that this 18 was a hazard while I was around. They -- they 19 didn't tell their employees that caprolactam could 20 do this. 21 And so, then, what do you do when you're 22 committed to protect the people? So, I went over 23 and talked to the president of the union for Allied 24 and said: Hey, this is a fact. 25 And I'm sure he was in the position that
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1 he didn't know who -- who is this guy and this is my 2 job and there's lots of really -- a threat to a lot 3 of people. 4 MS. COLLINS: Objection to the extent 5 it's nonresponsive and it calls for speculative 6 testimony. 7 BY MR. HOBSON: 8 Q. Well, let's see, Mr. Taylor. Do you know 9 that you told the people at Allied of your concerns 10 of this causative connection between the lactam and
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11 pancreatic cancer? 12 A. Absolutely. 13 Q. And -- and do you know that you made 14 efforts to try to get Allied -- Allied's management 15 to tell the workers dealing with this material about 16 your concerns for pancreatic cancer? 17 A. Yes. Yes. 18 Q. And do you know that the management at 19 Allied did not respond the way you thought was 20 responsible? 21 A. Oh, yes. I -- I agree, yes. 22 Q. All right, sir. And what -23 A. I know that. 24 Q. You know that? 25 A. (Nodding)
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1 Q. That's not speculation? 2 A. No. That's -- that's fact. I mean this 3 is -- we're trying to deal in fact here. 4 Q. Yes, sir. 5 A. Say the words not in fact -- everything I 6 presented here has -- has been fact. 7 Q. All right, sir. Now - 8 MR. RICE: Excuse me. I object to 9 the responsiveness. 10 BY MR. HOBSON: 11 Q. When you confronted Allied's management
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt 12 with your concerns and -- and your -- also concern 13 for their lack of telling the employees about this 14 suspected hazard, what -- what happened? 15 A. Well, there were a number of things; but I 16 was terminated. There were additional things 17 besides that I was critical about. I wrote a 18 document, could not get the people in the fibers 19 division to listen to that document; and I took the 20 document off to corporate. 21 Q. What did that document deal with? 22 A. The shortfall of a -- a number of things 23 that were injurious to long-term Allied business. 24 Q. Now, let me see. When did you become a 25 certified industrial hygienist?
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1 A. In 1970. 2 Q. So, this was well before you got to 3 Allied? 4 A. Oh, yes. Yeah. 5 Q. And you had been practicing industrial 6 hygiene then for some -7 A. Let me have that. 8 Q. -- number of years? Would that be right 9 sir, before you got to Allied? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And was it your -12 A. When did -13 Q. -- view --
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14 A. When did we -- got to Allied and -15 MR. RICE: Excuse me. Do you need 16 this? I'd like to look at it first. 17 THE WITNESS: Well, just wait, 18 please. 19 A. We were at Allied in '77 to '79. So, the 20 time I got to this, I had been certified for six 21 years then. Okay? 22 BY MR. HOBSON: 23 Q. And did you view yourself as a competent, 24 qualified industrial hygienist when Allied hired 25 you?
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1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Did you believe that Allied viewed you as 3 a competent, qualified industrial hygienist when 4 they hired you? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Did -- you took this information, you say, 7 past the fibers division management, to corporate? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. How did you do that? 10 A. Went up and visited corporate and sat down 11 with the head of toxicology and with the assistant 12 fellow by the name of Freeman, who is the assistant 13 head of industrial hygiene for Ethyl Corporation. 14 Q. You mean Ethyl or Allied?
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt 15 A. I'm sorry.
For Allied.
Getting tired
16 now.
17 Q. Now, who was the head of toxicology
18 that -- that you talked to?
19 A. Marvin Freeman, I believe.
20 Q. And did you present them with this --
21 A. Yeah.
22 Q. -- memorandum that you had --
23 A. Yeah.
24 Q. -- had composed?
25 A. And as it was received, they took it and
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1 put it underneath the desk blotter. I was so naive 2 there that I didn't realize what a bomb I had by 3 going from the division to corporate. And that was 4 not a wise thing to do. 5 Q. What did they tell you? 6 MS. COLLINS: Object as 7 nonresponsive. 8 A. They -- well, they sympathized with me. 9 They were supposedly friends and sympathized with 10 me, and that was about it.But what they -- what 11 happened is they released that incorporate, and 12 corporate came back to the fibers division and 13 said: What in the world is this? 14 And like I said, I was terminated. 15 BY MR. HOBSON: 16 Q. Who -- who terminated you?
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17 A. A fellow by the name of Wayne Sullivan. 18 Q. Did he give you a letter? 19 A. I believe so. 20 Q. What did he tell you the -- the reason for 21 the termination was? 22 A. I never was told the reason for my 23 determination. I -- termination. And I -- I 24 attempted to find that, and I investigated the -- my 25 personal file.
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1 I -- I didn't know we were going to go 2 this route. So, I don't have those papers. But I 3 do have -- have some papers relevant to that; and 4 with the man's name who was in personnel, who was 5 very sympathetic to my situation. 6 And he opened up my personnel files; and I 7 had a violent disagreement with what Mr. Sullivan 8 had written in there, because it wasn't true, and 9 wrote a letter to the personnel department, this 10 man, expressing mydisagreement. 11 Q. You say Mr. Sullivan had put something in 12 your personnel file, that you saw, that you 13 disagreed with? 14 A. Yes. Yeah. 15 Q. What -- what did he put in there that you 16 disagreed with? 17 A. I have the document that I just read here
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt 18 the other day. When you called me (indicating) -19 see, I couldn't sit down and talk with you about 20 this because it was just developing. I was still 21 bird-dogging all of this stuff and didn't have a 22 chance to get it in -- into perspective. 23 Q. Talking about talking to the Allied 24 lawyer? 25 A. Yeah.
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1 Q. Okay. 2 A. Yeah. And so, I -- she wanted me to sit 3 down with her, as did Steve; and I wasn't prepared 4 to do so. I'm hardly prepared for this. Imagine 5 how I was a few days ago and -- and just coming up 6 to this. 7 Q. Okay. 8 A. So -9 Q. Well, what was it that Mr. -10 MR. RICE: Excuse me. 11 A. Oh -12 BY MR. HOBSON: 13 Q. Wait. 14 MR. RICE: Let me object to the 15 responsiveness of the -16 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 17 MR. RICE: -- last answer. 18 BY MR. HOBSON: 19 Q. What -- what did Mr. Sullivan say that
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20 you -21 A. I just -22 Q. -- disagreed with? 23 A. I -- I read through -- I would have to 24 study on that. See, I wasn't studying on that. I 25 don't feel bad about getting terminated from -- from
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1 Allied. I might be -2 Q. Why not? 3 A. -- flattered. 4 Q. Why not? Why don't you feel bad about 5 that? 6 A. Because I couldn't be under -- with them 7 as much as I've grown to be now, in what I've 8 accomplished now. Okay. And I've got lots of 9 people who are healthy now, that I wouldn't have had 10 an opportunity to help that rapidly in Allied. 11 And I'm getting older. My first wife of 12 41 years died. You know, who knows, I might have 13 died. 14 Q. Now, you -- you said that there was a 15 corporate toxicology group in Allied at the time? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And a corporate industrial hygiene group, 18 as well? 19 A. Yes, uh-huh. 20 Q. And did -- did you not receive support
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt 21 from the corporate people to get your programs at 22 least investigated further? 23 A. No. The -- they had had the advent of 24 Kepone. And Kepone occurred under a decentralized 25 organizational structure. The -- Frank here, the
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1 plant manager at Allied, actually kept Allied 2 afloat. That was the only plant that made a profit 3 for Allied the first year that I was with them. And 4 he was still around. So, he essentially -- the 5 board of directors didn't run the Hopewell plant. 6 He ran it. And he did it in a decentralized 7 fashion. 8 Corporate wouldn't put their jobs at 9 jeopardy to take any stand in that. They didn't 10 have any strength. 11 Q. And the lactam situation was at this 12 Hopewell plant? 13 A. Yeah. It was at several locations, but it 14 was -- that's where it was manufactured. It was 15 there. It was also with the Chesterfield plant. It 16 was also in the plant in South Carolina, the Bess 17 plant -18 Q. These -19 A. -- but it still existed. 20 Q. These engineers that you had found the 21 death certificates for, that had showed pancreatic 22 cancer, had many of them worked at the Hopewell
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23 plant then? 24 A. All of them had had the same job and the 25 same department, the same -- dealing with the same
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1 process. 2 Q. Have you, to this day, seen any resolution 3 in medical and scientific literature of this issue 4 that you raised? 5 MS. COLLINS: Well, I object to -- to 6 the -- the witness opining or answering that 7 question. It goes beyond the realm. He's a 8 fact witness here today. And to the extent it 9 calls for any opinion, I object to that. 10 A. All right. Allied went ahead and -11 remember the statistic where I had my boss, Wayne -12 8 out of 11 people died of pancreatic cancer. They 13 initiated a study where -- by the Industrial Health 14 Foundation in Pittsburgh. And it involved all the 15 people who worked with caprolactam and at the plant 16 in Hopewell. And it involved some plant in Georgia 17 where they also used caprolactam by a Norwegian -18 Norwegian manufacturer. 19 And when you looked at the large 20 population of these complined -- combined employers, 21 then that many pancreatic cancers was no longer 22 significant. 23 That's when I wrote my letter to
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt 24 Dave Frazier -- and you'd have to look in his dead 25 files -- he's dead -- to find that -- and regretted
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1 how Industrial Health Foundation did things one way 2 and the University of North Carolina did them 3 different. 4 UNC ring (indicating). Okay, smile, 5 folks. Not so serious. Okay? 6 BY MR. HOBSON: 7 Q. So, you contacted Dr. Frazier at the 8 University of North Carolina and expressed your 9 concerns to him about the -10 A. He was the fellow -11 Q. -- way the study was done? 12 A. Yeah. Yeah. And so that Dave, hopefully, 13 could bring to the community, the body of scientists 14 in industrial hygiene, informal information of the 15 risk with caprolactam. 16 Q. And the concern that you wrote him about 17 was what you thought was a dilution of the at-risk 18 population? 19 A. No. I was -20 MS. COLLINS: Objection, leading. 21 A. -- concerned about the fact that this 22 material, in my opinion, caused pancreatic cancer 23 and it wasn't known. It wasn't published. The 24 people who were working with the material weren't 25 warned.
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1 People at the string plant, at the 2 Chesterfield plant, were -- I believe that they had 3 a death with pancreatic cancer even after this 4 time. 5 And in my time there, they didn't put 6 respirators on those people and -- to the proper 7 amount. Okay? My time there wasn't too long after 8 that. 9 BY MR. HOBSON: 10 Q. Now -11 MR. MARTIN: Objection, 12 nonresponsive. 13 BY MR. HOBSON: 14 Q. Well, I'll have to ask, then, Mr. Taylor: 15 At the time you left Allied, had Allied warned any 16 of its employees about any potential lactam exposure 17 problem? 18 A. Not to my knowledge, no. 19 Q. Had they even asked their employees to 20 wear respirators as a pre- -- precaution? 21 A. Not to my knowledge, no. Three years 22 after my termination, the head of safety at the 23 Chesterfield plant, Don -- Don Jones, contacted me 24 and said that all of the things that I had said in 25 my resignation letter had been tested and proven to
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1 be so. 2 MS. COLLINS: Objection -3 A. And -4 MS. COLLINS: -- move to strike -5 A. -- of course, one of those things 6 included -7 MS. COLLINS: -- not responsive. 8 A. -- included the caprolactam. 9 BY MR. HOBSON: 10 Q. Because of the objection, let me ask you 11 were you -12 MR. MARTIN: Further object as 13 hearsay. 14 BY MR. HOBSON: 15 Q. Were you subsequently contacted by someone 16 from Allied about the concerns you had raised? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And when that person contacted you, what 19 was their position, as you appreciated it? 20 A. Their pos- -- it was one of respect -21 Q. No, sir. I mean -22 A. -- saying, "You were right." 23 Q. No. I mean what was their employment 24 status with Allied? 25 A. He was head of -- I think he was a manager
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1 or director of safety at the Chesterfield facility 2 string plant, where they would take the caprolactam 3 and make fibers out of this chemical. And 4 caprolactam is of a nature that it can be treated 5 and reversed and you can make more liquid 6 caprolactam out of it. It's a reversible action. 7 And so, then they would take the waste 8 product caprolactam; and they had a process there at 9 their Chesterfield plant where they would 10 rejuvenate;, if you will, that. 11 And I do know that they had a cancer death 12 there, pancreatic cancer. 13 Q. What was the man's name? 14 A. Don Jones. 15 Q. So, after you had been gone from Allied 16 some approximately three years -17 A. Uh-huh. 18 Q. -- Mr. Don Jones contacted you? 19 A. Yeah. 20 Q. At the time he contacted you, you believed 21 him to be still an employee of Allied? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And -- and what did -- what do you recall 24 Mr. Jones telling you? 25 A. That everything that I had said in this
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt 1 final hearing, final termination meeting, was, in 2 fact, so. 3 Q. And would Mr. Jones have known what you 4 had said in your final termination -5 A. I believe he -6 Q. -- meeting? 7 A. I believe he was one of those that 8 attended it. 9 Now, I don't want to get Mr. Jones fired.
10 Okay? He was doing the best he can, and he was 11 trying to be honest and so on and so forth. I'm not 12 out to crucify him. But I -- it's factual, and 13 that's -- that's it. Okay? 14 Q. Let me go back -15 A. We don't -- we don't have a friendship. 16 He didn't initiate anything. 17 He wasn't disloyal to -- to Allied. I 18 think he was an honest person. 19 Q. Let me ask you -- if I can go back in time 20 a little bit, I want to go back to your Ethyl days 21 for a minute. 22 A. Sure. 23 Q. When you were working for Ethyl, you said 24 that you were in the process of selling industrial 25 hygiene services of Ethyl's to other companies?
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1 A. Well, I didn't do that. They had the 2 representative salespeople -- call them marketing
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3 people today -- that would visit these operations. 4 And our competitor was DuPont at -- at that time. 5 And so, these marketing people presumably 6 would go around and -- and try to make Ethyl more 7 favorable to a potential client or a client or 8 customer than -- than was DuPont. 9 And one of the bells, bottle -- my service 10 was one of the bells, was one of the bonuses of 11 doing business with Ethyl. 12 Q. Who -13 A. I didn't solicit. I tried to fight it 14 because -15 THE WITNESS: And I believe there 16 was a statement someplace, Steve. You may have 17 read it -18 A. -- and -- where I objected to going to 19 the -- to get into the customer service work 20 because -- my statement was that there was too much 21 dirty linen in -- within the corporation, that we 22 shouldn't be going out and telling other people how 23 to do things. 24 MR. RICE: Well, I object to the 25 responsiveness.
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1 And to answer your question, no, 2 I've never seen such a document. 3 THE WITNESS: Okay.
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt 4 BY MR. HOBSON: 5 Q. Well, I've got to ask you, since he 6 objected, did you object to selling or providing -7 let me start over. 8 Did you object to Ethyl providing 9 industrial hygiene services to its customers?
10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And why did you object to that? 12 A. It diluted my efforts to get dose 13 information for Ethyl Corporation, diluted my 14 efforts to do what I had understood at the time I 15 was hired to do. I wasn't hired to be a salesperson 16 or to set up industrial hygiene and safety programs 17 around the whole bloody world. 18 Q. You had enough work to do at -- at Ethyl, 19 and going somewhere else would take away from that? 20 A. That's very factual. 21 Q. Now, in spite of that, were you called 22 upon to visit other people's facilities and do 23 industrial hygiene work? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. I think earlier you mentioned Crown.
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1 Would that be Crown Central Refining? 2 A. Yeah. They had a great fire, didn't 3 they? 4 Q. I don't know. 5 A. Yeah, they did.
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6 Charter International Petroleum. 7 Q. Charter was another? 8 A. Yeah. 9 Q. What others did you -10 A. Ashland Petroleum. 11 Q. Okay. 12 A. Boys, I' ve got it -- a document on -13 Conoco. Conoco. All those little smaller 14 refineries in the west, just about, almost every 15 of them. 16 Q. Now, when you would go out and -- and 17 provide this service to Ethyl's customers -18 A. There aren't that many, a dozen maybe. 19 Q. Sorry? 20 A. Go -- go ahead. There aren't that many. 21 Q. Say about a dozen? 22 A. I'd say, yeah. 23 Q. Okay. When you would go out and -- and do 24 industrial hygiene survey work for Ethyl's 25 customers, would you write a report of that visit?
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1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Would a -- a copy of that report have been 3 kept by Ethyl? 4 MR. RICE: Excuse me. I object. 5 It calls for speculation. 6 A. It was -- I will say that a copy of that
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt 7 report was submitted to Ethyl; and they were used as 8 sales documents, if you will, by sales 9 representatives. In fact, they took a video of me
10 in my office giving some pitch on industrial hygiene 11 and -- and that type of thing. And they used that 12 to -- to promote with, too -- just come to mind. 13 BY MR. HOBSON: 14 Q. Now, if you made a visit to one of these 15 re- -- refineries, as an Ethyl industrial hygienist 16 and wrote a report, would the report have gone to 17 the company whose facility you visited? 18 A. Yes. It would go -- they were a 19 customer. They would go wherever they were told to 20 deliver it. And that -- I do have a -- a letter 21 back from the plant manager at Conoco -- excuse 22 me -- saying that they had adapted some of the -- of 23 my recommendations and were going ahead with them 24 and appreciated them, was well received and so on 25 and so forth.
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1 And at that time -- and I do have a copy 2 of this somewhere -- I wrote a letter -- or I sent a 3 note to Bill McCormick, who is managing director of 4 American Industrial Hygiene Association, and said, 5 "How come I can't convince Ethyl, but I can 6 convince other people," with my frustration. 7 Bill sent me back a letter and -- and 8 offered me other work.
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9 MR. RICE: Excuse me. Object to 10 the responsiveness. 11 BY MR. HOBSON: 12 Q. Well, okay. Since he's objected, did - 13 did you have occasion to complain outside of Ethyl 14 about your inability to convince Ethyl to do what 15 you wanted done but you were able to convince 16 others? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And to whom did you make that complaint? 19 A. William McCormick. 20 Q. And who was he at the time? 21 A. He was the managing director of the 22 American Industrial Hygiene Association. 23 Q. And what did Mr. McCormick respond with? 24 A. Offered me other work. 25 Q. Outside of Ethyl?
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1 A. Yes. 2 Q. When you would do these industrial hygiene 3 surveys of other people's facilities, as an Ethyl 4 employee, you generated a report, you put a copy of 5 the report in Ethyl's files. And as far as you 6 knew, a copy of the report went to someone at the 7 customer's location. Would that be so? 8 A. Yeah. Most of those reports were on the 9 order -- this Ethyl Hellas report is typical of the
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt 10 reports that I produced.
After so many years, they
11 fall apart.
12 Q. And your industrial hygiene survey
13 reports, if there were recommendations for
14 improvement, those recommendations would have been
15 put down in writing and -- and sent to -- to the --
16 to the customer; would that be so, sir?
17 A. Yeah. Yes.
18 Q. Would -- would you have visited any of
19 those refineries more than once?
20 A. I would have to ponder that. I -- it
21 seems to me Meade -- gosh -- what was the company
22 that had this woman that was murdered on -- on --
23 has been on a TV program, with radiation and so on
24 and so forth?
25 Q. Oh, Kerr McGee.
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1 A. Kerr McGee. Kerr McGee, I think. 2 Q. Karen Silkwood. 3 A. The guy -- the -- the man who headed up 4 safety for Kerr McGee liked me and liked my 5 approach. In fact, he recommended me to be director 6 of OSHA at one time. And it's -- evidently was 7 helpful to his company in what he was trying to 8 accomplish in his company. 9 Q. So, you actually provided services for 10 Kerr McGee, as well, then? 11 A. Yeah. Yeah, to -- to, you know, their
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12 locations. And I could very well have gone back. 13 Essentially by going to several similar locations, 14 I'm going back to them. 15 Q. I'd -- I'd like to ask you a few more or 16 less general questions, if I could, Mr. Taylor. 17 THE WITNESS: I -- I hope those 18 aren't getting all mixed up. 19 MR. RICE: Well, I'm -- I'm not 20 mixing them up. 21 THE WITNESS: Okay. Great. 22 MR. RICE: They're exactly the way 23 they were. 24 THE WITNESS: Is this the next pile? 25 MR. RICE: Well, it is --
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1 THE WITNESS: Excuse me. 2 MR. RICE: -- a pile. 3 THE WITNESS: I want to go on record 4 that I'm getting interfered with here and 5 distracted. Okay? 6 MR. RICE: Well, I want to go on the 7 record: You brought these documents here, I 8 guess responsive -9 THE WITNESS: Yeah, but not in the 10 middle of when I'm trying to do my job. 11 MR. RICE: Well -12 THE WITNESS: Right? I -- I'm due an
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt 13 apology. 14 MR. RICE: Yeah. 15 THE WITNESS: I'm due an apology, 16 sir. 17 MR. RICE: I'm -18 THE WITNESS: I'm due an apology, 19 sir. I'm due an apology. 20 MR. RICE: Anyway, I would like to 21 THE WITNESS: I'm due an apology. 22 MR. RICE: Well, get an apology from 23 anyone that you think is due. 24 THE WITNESS: You, from you. 25 MR. RICE: I'm sorry. I -- I'm --
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1 THE WITNESS: There.
2 MR. RICE: -- trying to --
3 THE WITNESS: Great. Let's shake
4 hands.
5 MR. RICE: Thank you very much.
6
THE WITNESS:
Great.
7 MR. RICE: Now --
8 THE WITNESS: Now, you go sit over
9 there and look through the papers, if you want
10 to; but don't distract me. I'm getting tired,
11 and I don 't want to play legal games with you.
12 All right ? I really don't. Please.
13 MR. RICE: You have brought 14 records - _
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15 THE WITNESS : May I have this? 16 MR. RICE: Sure. 17 THE WITNESS : I want to see what's 18 where we are. 19 MR. RICE: You've brought records 20 here today. And what I'm doing, for purposes 21 of the record , based on your statements -- I 22 want to make sure the record is clear -- is I 23 trying to review the documents that you've -24 THE WITNESS : I -25 MR. RICE: -- brought here today.
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1 THE WITNESS: I appreciate that, 2 Steve. God love you, I appreciate that. 3 But - 4 MR. RICE: I'm not interested in 5 whether God loves me. I'm -- what I'm 6 interested in is trying to review the 7 documents. 8 THE WITNESS: I am interested 9 that God loves me. There may be a fundamental 10 difference here, Steve. 11 BY MR. HOBSON: 12 Q. I wanted to visit with you a little bit 13 about some of the principles of industrial hygiene 14 that you would have been taught and -- and that you 15 practice, Mr. Taylor.
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt 16 Did -- did -- did you learn, sir, that 17 threshold limit values were guidelines that 18 professional industrial hygienists were to use? 19 A. Very, very rough guidelines. They are 20 guidelines to encourage further investigation. The 21 industrial hygienist, professional industrial 22 hygienist, looks at the dose-response relationship. 23 Merely finding something that is in excess of the 24 threshold limit value has no relation to someone 25 being injured. Finding somebody injured and their
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1 exposure level is below -- for instance, to -- to 2 lead -- and their exposure level, a lot of people 3 have been exposed to lead at acceptable levels and 4 accumulated lead in their bodies. 5 And so, the threshold limit values are 6 only a hazy cloud in the perception of really 7 professional industrial hygiene. 8 Q. For that reason, sir, is it -- is it 9 important that exposures in the workplace to 10 materials that are potential hazards be kept as low 11 as reasonably possible, even though you're below a 12 threshold limit value? 13 A. Absolutely. 14 MR. MARTIN: Objection; leading, 15 vague. 16 BY MR. HOBSON: 17 Q. And I take it, like the earlier slides you
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18 showed us of your work at Ethyl of the -- the men 19 working on ventilat- -- asbestos insulation with the 20 band saws, even though you had ventilation in place 21 and they were wearing coveralls and they still had 22 on respirators, you still had ventilation, you still 23 followed good work practices -- and that was because 24 you wanted the exposures to be as low as you could 25 reasonably get them?
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1 MR. MARTIN: Objection -2 BY MR. HOBSON: 3 Q. -- is that so? 4 MR. MARTIN: -- compound and 5 leading. 6 A. Yes, that's, in fact, so. 7 BY MR. HOBSON: 8 Q. And -9 A. Individual susceptibility -- at -- at that 10 time there was a physician from New York who went 11 around and said one fiber could cause disease. Now 12 he's since backed off from that. But at that point 13 in time, there was certainly plenty of urgency to 14 get the exposures down as low as possible. 15 Q. And -16 MR. MARTIN: Objection, 17 nonresponsive. 18 BY MR. HOBSON:
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt 19 Q. -- were you taught as a -- a student in 20 industrial hygiene at the University of North 21 Carolina that a professional industrial hygienist, 22 in -- in carrying out his duties, should have this 23 approach of reducing exposures in the workplace to 24 as low as reasonably possible, even though the 25 exposures will be below the threshold limit value?
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1 MR. MARTIN: Objection, leading -2 A. And -- and that's so. And it was -3 MR. MARTIN: -- leading and vague. 4 A. -- reinforced by my employer, Stan Kyle, 5 at Ethyl Corporation. One of the first industrial 6 hygienists, a hired Harvard grad, and an engineer, 7 heck of a good engineer. 8 MR. RICE: What was his name? 9 THE WITNESS: Stanley Kyle. 10 BY MR. HOBSON: 11 Q. Are you saying that -12 THE WITNESS: He's long dead. 13 A. It was reinforced -- that concept was 14 reinforced by him. These are the pioneers, okay, 15 before TLVs. It was reinforced by Fred Venable, who 16 was the industrial hygienist for the Baton Rouge 17 plant of Exxon. It was re- -- reinforced by 18 Ted Robinson, who was the medical director of the 19 Baton Rouge facility. 20 BY MR. HOBSON:
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21 Q. Was it your -22 A. I'm sorry to say that may be all it was 23 reinforced by. I wish it were a lot more. 24 Q. Was it your impression from having had 25 these conversations with these Ethyl men that had
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1 been there before you that this was a long-standing 2 practice of Ethyl Corporation, to keep exposures as 3 low as reasonably possible? 4 A. In the tetraethyl lead area, yes. And 5 that would be thanks to Dr. Kehoe. 6 Q. And I think you said earlier Dr. Kehoe had 7 a philosophy that you -- if you could keep all the 8 lead inside and have -9 A. Yeah. 10 Q. -- no exposures, you can really -- you've 11 dealt with the industrial hygiene problem then? 12 A. Yeah. 13 MR. MARTIN: Leading. 14 A. Yes. And then -- I think in -- in 15 response to this, okay, my understanding of what he 16 was saying, I did publish or had published in 17 August, '79, an article, "Chemicals in the Air, How 18 to Determine Exposure Dose." That is relevant here. 19 BY MR. HOBSON: 20 Q. Where was that published, Mr. Taylor? 21 A. Published in a -- the magazine
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt 22 Professional Safety.
It's the magazine, the
23 publish -- publication for safety engineers in the
24 United States.
25 Q. American Society of Safety Engineers?
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1 A. Yes, sir. 2 I had published an article -- and this I 3 wrote entirely -- I was introduced by it -- to 4 Occupational Health Management by Objectives. It 5 was a management by objectives, M.B.O. Allied had 6 this management procedure. 7 So, this personnel management -- or 8 personnel magazine is a division of the American 9 Management Association. And we talk about, in that 10 article, information and guidelines for people at 11 Allied, a checklist for monitoring, for recognition, 12 evaluation, and control of plant health hazards. 13 And Item No. 5 is an epidemiologic review. Okay? 14 And then -- okay. It's your turn. 15 Q. The -- the documents, your publications 16 that you've gone through, you've been good enough to 17 give us copies of those; and -- and they're in this 18 three-ring binder, are they not? 19 A. Yes. And that one there is needful to be 20 brought up, the one before that -- right there. 21 Q. All right, sir. You -- you're directing 22 me to a -- a letter from a Dr. Ted Robinson -23 A. That's right.
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt 24 Q. -- dated August the 25th, 1982. And 25 what's the significance of it, Mr. Taylor?
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1 A. Well, the significance -- this is for 2 Mr. Rice. I was -- by this time, in '82, I had my 3 own company then and had been on my own and was 4 endeavoring to find work in the community here. 5 Bill Bosher, who went on -- at this - 6 this time he was superintendent of Henrico County, 7 superintendent of the schools. He then went to the 8 superintendent. He became the head of the state 9 school system; and now he is head of the second 10 largest school system in Virginia, Chesterfield 11 County. And so, Ted wrote this to Dr. Bosher as a 12 letter reference. 13 I'm going to read to you the third 14 paragraph. "Mr. Taylor is unquestionably" -- this 15 is from Ted Robinson, the fellow I worked with at 16 Ethyl Corporation, who Mr. Rice talked with a couple 17 of days ago. 18 Q. Who said that you didn't say what you say? 19 A. Yeah. "Mr. Taylor is unquestionably" - 20 MR. RICE: Excuse me. 21 A. -- "the best practical" - 22 MR. RICE: Excuse me. 23 THE WITNESS: Sure. 24 MR. RICE: What I said was that
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1 said. 2 THE WITNESS : Okay. 3 MR. RICE: All right? 4 THE WITNESS : Yeah. 5 MR. RICE: Okay. 6 THE WITNESS : I don't know how you 7 phrased that, though, Steve. 8 MR. RICE: Well, that 's what - 9 THE WITNESS : That's -- that's so -10 MR. RICE: -- in case there's any -11 THE WITNESS : We don' t want to chase 12 that dog around. 13 MR. RICE: Well, I will. 14 A. (Reading) Mr. Taylor is unquestionably 15 the best practical field industrial hygienist that I 16 have encountered. His technical knowledge is deep 17 and searching. He is meticulous in his techniques 18 and recognizes clearly the limitations and pitfalls 19 of each step involved in his evaluations. He is 20 very careful and rigorously logical in his analysis 21 and interpretation of results. His recommendations 22 are realistic, practical, necessary, and almost 23 always are sufficient of themselves to meet the 24 needs for protection of health. I consider his work 25 to represent state-of-the-art performance.
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC.
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1 Next paragraph: His one drawback -2 brackets -- which I consider his greatest strength 3 and value -- end brackets -- is his absolute refusal 4 to compromise on his recommendations in any way that 5 might result in inadequate protection of any person 6 potentially exposed to a harmful situation. He is 7 an absolutely, resolutely moral and ethical 8 practitioner of his trade -- brackets -- calling -9 question mark, end brackets -- brackets, dash, 10 quotes -- people protection, end quotes. 11 And that was from Ted Robinson, who was 12 the -- he's a doctor of industrial medicine, trained 13 at the University of Cincinnati in 1966. He at that 14 time was medical director of Chicopee and of the 15 southeast region for Johnson & Johnson. And during 16 the period '73 to '77 he was a plant medical doc- -17 director, medical -- Ethyl Corporation, Baton Rouge, 18 Louisiana. 19 MR. RICE: Object to the 20 responsiveness of whatever the question 21 there was. 22 MR. HOBSON: Mr. Taylor, I think 23 that's going to be all -24 THE WITNESS: All right. 25 MR. HOBSON: -- the questions I've
NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. HENRY M. TAYLOR
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1 got for you, sir. And -2 THE WITNESS: Okay. 3 MR. HOBSON: -- I expect some of 4 these other folks want to ask you a few, and 5 then I may have a few more. 6 THE WITNESS: Then -7 MR. LOKER: Excuse me. I object. 8 There is no question pending. 9 THE REPORTER: I'm -- I'm sorry. 10 Who -11 THE WITNESS: Ask -12 MR. LOKER: I am. 13 THE WITNESS: Ask me a question 14 if there was a follow-up on -15 MR. HOBSON: Sure. Let's ask that 16 question, Mr. Taylor, since... 17 MR. LOKER: I'll withdraw my 18 objection. 19 THE WITNESS: All right. Then -20 then let me go ahead with that. 21 BY MR. HOBSON: 22 Q. Well, you've got a document here that 23 appears to be a reprint of something you've 24 written. Would you tell us what that is, sir? 25 A. Yeah. One of the best quality journals in
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1 the United States is a -- one called Quality 2 Engineering. And I had published -- or was 3 published for me, after tremendous peer review from 4 around the world, an article entitled "Persistent 5 Team Improvement from Pride." 6 And the end of that article says: In 7 manufacturing, employee empowerment leads to 8 improved employee self-worth, leads to improved 9 company competitive position. 10 Now, this out- -- outfit became the best 11 in the world in quality, productivity, health, 12 perhaps the best chemical facility. You don't smell 13 chemicals there, at least in the United States. 14 Okay? And (reading) leads to further employee 15 empowerment and the cycle repeats. 16 And I felt the need to at the closure of 17 this, wherein from your position, gentlemen, that 18 this has to be suspect that I've proven what I've 19 talked about. Okay? 20 In addition, in June of -- 6, 1994, I am 21 one of the chapter editors, worked for two or three 22 years on this, for a book published by the American 23 Industrial Hygiene Association, their management 24 committee, for Industrial Hygiene Audited -25 Auditing, a Manual for Practice. Okay?
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1 THE WITNESS: Thanks. Thanks for
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt 2 your patience there. 3 MR. RICE: Object to the 4 responsiveness of the question -- the 5 answer. 6 MR. HOBSON: Anyone else have 7 some questions for Mr. Taylor? 8 THE REPORTER: Let's go off the 9 record a minute. I need to change paper.
10 MR. HOBSON: Okay. We can go off 11 the record a second. 12 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're off the 13 record at 2:44. 14 (A BRIEF RECESS WAS HAD) 15 MR. RICE: For the record, I need 16 time to review the documents that have been 17 brought here today before I can begin my 18 examination. And so, I want to do that before 19 I begin my examination. 20 MR. HOBSON: I'd say start; and if 21 you don't get done today, come back in the 22 morning. 23 MR. RICE: Well, I'm not coming back 24 in the morning. The deposition was scheduled 25 for today. You had a deposition scheduled
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1 tomorrow. 2 MR. HOBSON: When do you want to 3 come back?
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4 MR. RICE: I don't know. 5 MR. HOBSON: Monday? 6 MR. RICE: I don't know. 7 MR. HOBSON: Well, I'd say why don't 8 you start going through the documents now; and 9 we've got a couple of hours here. You might 10 get finished with them. 11 MR. RICE: I'm not going to commit 12 to a specific time because I don't have my 13 calendar with me. 14 MR. HOBSON: Okay. Well, you can 15 commit for two hours, huh? 16 MR. RICE: Oh, yeah. 17 THE WITNESS: Somebody has jumbled 18 these, Steve. You're going to have to have 19 them - 20 THE REPORTER: Off the record now? 21 MR. RICE: Huh? 22 THE REPORTER: Off the record now? 23 MR. RICE: I don't have anything - 24 if somebody else wants to ask - 25 MR. HOBSON: The witness had
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1 something he wanted to ask you. 2 MR. RICE: Oh, I'm sorry. 3 THE WITNESS: No. My comment was - 4 I was teasing. I'm the only happy person in
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt 5 the room other than Pat.
Somebody has jumbled
6 these up -- hint, hint. And so, if you want me
7 to help you reorder them, I would because -
8 MR. RICE: Well, I -
9 THE WITNESS: -- if you do it in
10 chronological order, it'll -- it'll work
11 better.
12 MR. RICE: Well, I just want to -
13 THE WITNESS: If I can be of help to
14 you, I -- I'm saying if I can be of help to
15 you, God love you, I will.
16 MR. RICE: Well, I appreciate that.
17 You've been a lot of help already.
18 So, let me just take the opportunity
19 to review them; and I'll start or -- if
20 somebody else wants to ask questions, they feel
21 they're ready to go forward, then that's fine;
22 but I am not at this point.
23 MR. HOBSON: Okay. Who else wants to
24 ask questions?
25 (NO RESPONSE)
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1 MR. HOBSON: I guess you're the only 2 one, Mr. Rice. 3 MR. RICE: Okay. 4 MR. MARTIN: I tell you what, I'd 5 like to ask just a couple of questions if we're 6 on a break. If you want to -- I think it will
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7 take two or three minutes. 8 MR. HOBSON: Sure. 9 THE WITNESS: You know, if I can 10 find -- if you're going to refer to this, if 11 I can -12 MR. MARTIN: No. 13 THE WITNESS: Okay. 14 MR. HOBSON: Mr. Taylor, if you 15 want to put your microphone on there so -16 for this man. 17 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Mr. Hobson. 18 Great. 19 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're on the 20 record at 2:56. 21 EXAMINATION BY MR. MARTIN: 22 Q. Mr. Taylor -23 A. Yes. 24 Q. -- a couple of questions. My name is 25 Kirk Martin. I met you this morning. I represent
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1 Mobil Oil Corporation and Fina Oil and Chemical 2 Company. 3 You've appeared here today subject to a 4 subpoena, as I understand it; is that right? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Were you served a subpoena at your home? 7 A. I was -- I was handed a -- a document for
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt 8 my presence, yeah. 9 Q. Who handed that to you?
10 A. God love you. Some lawyer from Chester. 11 Q. A lawyer handed that to you? 12 A. Yeah. 13 Q. Okay. Is that what you were handed, that 14 you have in your hands? 15 A. (Reviewing document) Well, this was faxed 16 to me; but then, there was a formal thing that I 17 signed and so on and so forth and the date and the 18 time and all that -19 Q. All right. 20 A. -- type of thing. This was a fax to a -21 alert me. 22 Q. Are you being compensated for your 23 testimony here today? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And who is paying for your time?
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1 A. Mr. Hobson is. 2 Q. Okay. And would you share with us what 3 your fee is for the testimony? 4 A. I'll charge $80 an hour for being here; 5 and for the preparatory work, I'll charge $55 an 6 hour. 7 Q. And that was the time you invested in 8 gathering these documents together? 9 A. Yes.
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10 Q. Okay. 11 A. It was actually about 24 hours. 12 Q. That's how much time -13 A. Or -14 Q. -- was spent putting -15 A. -- maybe even more. I -- I'm not sure, 16 but it was... 17 Q. You spent at least 24 hours gathering the 18 documents together -19 A. Yeah. I -20 Q. -- that you've brought here? 21 A. I learned from my lawyer friends how to 22 itemize everything. You know, it's all -- all 23 accounted for and all the tasks are -24 Q. Okay. 25 A. -- dates and all that kind of thing.
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1 Q. Have you submitted a bill for your time 2 yet? 3 A. No. I -- I won't submit a bill unless 4 he's happy. I don't bill my clients unless I give 5 them value. 6 Q. Un- -- unless you -7 A. He has -- he has to judge whether I've 8 given him value or not. 9 Q. And that's Mr. Hobson? 10 A. Yes.
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt 11 MR. MARTIN:
All right.
Thank you.
12 That's all I have.
13 Anyone else?
14 (NO RESPONSE)
15 MR. HOBSON: Anybody else?
16 (NO RESPONSE)
17 MR. HOBSON: Off the record until
18 Mr. Rice is ready, I guess.
19 You want -- are you ready to go
20 forward yet?
21 MR. RICE: Huh?
22 MR. HOBSON: I said are you ready to
23 go forward yet?
24 MR. RICE: Herschel, I've got to the
25 first document.
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1 MR. HOBSON: Oh. Okay. 2 THE REPORTER: Off the record or on 3 now? 4 MR. HOBSON: I guess off the record, 5 yeah. 6 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're off the 7 record at 2:59. 8 (A BRIEF RECESS WAS HAD) 9 MR. HOBSON: On the record again. 10 Mr. Rice has indicated that it's 11 clear, now that he's had a chance to look at 12 Mr. Taylor's documents for a while, that he
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13 can't finish today, in its entirety anyway. 14 So, rather than to keep all these folks sitting 15 around while he goes through the documents, 16 we'll reconvene at a convenient time for 17 Mr. Taylor and Mr. Rice, after Mr. Rice has had 18 a chance to look through his copy of the 19 documents. 20 Mr. Taylor has indicated that he 21 will be sending the court reporter a copy of 22 the documents, and then the court reporter can 23 make them available to any of the parties that 24 wants them. 25 And I think, Mr. Taylor, you
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1 indicated that not only had you gotten an 2 agreement from me to pay you for your time 3 pursuant to doing work under the subpoena 4 but Mr. Rice has agreed to pay you for your 5 time that you spend doing whatever he asks 6 you to do; is that right, sir? 7 MR. RICE: That's -8 THE WITNESS: That's correct. 9 MR. RICE: -- not exactly correct. 10 MR. HOBSON: Oh. 11 MR. RICE: That's -12 MR. HOBSON: Well, do you know 13 what's correct?
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt 14 MR. RICE:
I think what I asked --
15 or what we agreed was that the time we spent
16 on the telephone, that I would pay you for
17 that time; is that not correct?
18 THE WITNESS: Yeah, or the time --
19 MR. RICE: Okay.
20 THE WITNESS: -- the time that you
21 wanted me -- you wanted to talk to me before
22 this hearing --
23 MR. RICE: Right.
24 THE WITNESS: -- you would pay for
25 that time.
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1 MR. RICE: Which you refused to do; 2 is that correct? 3 THE WITNESS: Yeah. Everyone -4 everyone got the information at one time. You 5 all got pregnant at the same time. 6 MR. HOBSON: You didn't show me -7 THE WITNESS: I thought that was 8 fair. 9 MR. HOBSON: You didn't show me 10 any of these documents before the deposition 11 today, did you, Mr. Taylor? 12 THE WITNESS: No, sir. No. 13 MR. RICE: Anything else? 14 MR. HOBSON: Yes. 15 THE WITNESS: And that's -- and
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16 that's essentially what you asked me. 17 MR. RICE: What? 18 THE WITNESS: You asked me, you 19 said, "Are you going to show them to 20 Mr. Hobson," or something like that. 21 And I said, "No, he's -- he hasn't 22 asked me for them, though." You were the 23 only one that asked for them. 24 MR. RICE: And you refused. 25 Go ahead.
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1 MR. HOBSON: This, too, should 2 solve our problem about your problems with -3 MR. RICE: Notice? 4 MR. HOBSON: -- notice. That way 5 you'll have plenty of time to look through 6 everything, get the transcript of what's done; 7 and any concerns you have should be deal - 8 dealt with that way, too. 9 Okay? That concludes today's 10 deposition. And, Mr. Taylor, for the purposes 11 of reconvening, would you agree, sir, that we 12 don't have to serve you with another subpoena 13 but we'll work with you to coordinate a 14 convenient time to finish this up if it's 15 necessary? 16 THE WITNESS: That's wonderful.
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt 17 There's one other thing I'd ask for. 18 MR. HOBSON: Yes, sir. 19 THE WITNESS: This gentleman over 20 here, when -- when something was said about me 21 getting to a certain point of this phase and 22 there was clapping from the other room, he said 23 he wanted to go on record that the clapping was 24 not from the lawyers represented here. If the 25 lawyers represented want to clap now, they can.
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1 MR. LOKER: We're going to wait until 2 we reconvene. 3 MR. HOBSON: Thank you, sir. 4 THE WITNESS: Happy weekend, 5 everyone. Smile. 6 THE REPORTER: Wait -7 MR. HOBSON: Steve, we're going to 8 attach to today's transcript the copies of the 9 covers of the books so everybody will know what 10 he brought. And then the other documents will 11 be provided to the court reporter. 12 Also attached will be the documents 13 that Mr. Taylor provided us in this three-ring 14 binder. There were two copies that he brought, 15 that I think are separate from his regular 16 copies. 17 THE WITNESS: Do you have both of 18 those copies?
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19 THE REPORTER: Off the record? 20 MR. RICE: I'm sorry, Herschel. 21 This is off the record. 22 THE WITNESS: We're done. 23 (OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION) 24 MR. HOBSON: Mr. Taylor has said 25 that he will have the slides copied; and in
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1 addition to that, he'll make a photocopy of 2 the -- what's on the face of the slides and 3 coordinate those so we'll know which slides 4 go with what he was talking about earlier. 5 That way everybody will have a copy of the 6 slides. And if they want them, the court 7 reporter can deal with making you copies of 8 all those, as well. 9 MS. MALONEY: Will the slides 10 actually be slides, or are they going to be 11 photocopies? 12 MR. HOBSON: I asked for slides to 13 be made, duplicates slides. 14 THE WITNESS: One set. 15 MR. HOBSON: One set. And then - 16 THE WITNESS: Okay. 17 MR. HOBSON: -- the court reporter 18 will deal with those who want a -- want 19 additional copies.
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt 20 THE WITNESS:
Sure.
21 MR. HOBSON: But Mr. Taylor will just
22 provide the court reporter one -- one copy of
23 the slides.
24 MR. RICE: And then what's going to
25 happen to them?
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1 MR. HOBSON: Anybody that wants a 2 copy of those slides can contact the court 3 reporter for their copy. 4 MR. RICE: Okay. I do want a copy. 5 THE REPORTER: Okay. Can I assume 6 that everybody wants a copy of the slides? If 7 not, please send me something by fax saying not 8 to send you a copy. 9 10 (DEPOSITION EXHIBIT TAYLOR NOS. 2, 3, 11 4, AND 5 WERE MARKED) 12 (UPON RECEIPT BY THE REPORTER 13 DEPOSITION EXHIBIT TAYLOR NOS. 6 AND 7 WERE 14 MARKED) 15 16 (THE DEPOSITION WAS ADJOURNED) 17 18 19 20 21
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22 23 24 25
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1
THE STATE OF
:
2 COUNTY OF :
3
4 I, HENRY M. TAYLOR, hereby certify that I have
5 read the foregoing transcript of my testimony,
6 consisting of 179 pages, given in the foregoing
7 numberedandstyled case, and thatsame is true and
8 correct to the best of my knowledge and belief.
9 I further certify that any and all corrections
10 have been made on a separate page and initialed by
11 me.
12 This day of , 1997.
13
14
15 ________________________________
16 HENRY M. TAYLOR
17
18 SWORN TO AND SUBSCRIBED BEFORE ME this
19 day of ,
19 97.
20
21 ________________________________
22 NOTARY PUBLIC
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1 NO. B-126,986
2 RUSSELL ALLEN, ET AL
* IN THE DISTRICT COURT *
3 VS.
* JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS *
4 AMERICAN PETROFINA, INC.,*
ET AL
* 6OTH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
5
NO. A-144,426 (Consolidated B-126,986)
6
GLADYS FORRESTIER, ET AL * IN THE DISTRICT COURT
7
VS. 8
* JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS *
AC&S, INC., ET AL
* 58TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
9
NO. A-134,614 (Consolidated B-126,986)
10
FRENCH HICKS, ET AL 11
* IN THE DISTRICT COURT *
VS. 12
* JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS *
BETHLEHEM STEEL
*
13 CORPORATION, ET AL
* 58TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
14 NO. A-144,426-A (Consolidated B-145,587)
15 GINGER BROUSSARD 16 VS. 17 AC&S, INC., ET AL
* IN THE DISTRICT COURT *
* JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS *
* 60TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
18 NO. B-150,802
19 LENA BROUSSARD,
* IN THE DISTRICT COURT
INDIVIDUALLY AND AS
*
20 PERSONAL REPRESENTATIVE *
OF THE ESTATE OF LLOYD J.*
21 BROUSSARD, DECEASED, ET AL
22
* *
*
VS.
* JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS
23 *
GULF STATES UTILITIES
*
24 COMPANY, ET AL
* 60TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
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1 NO. B-142,345
2 LEROY CELESTINE
* IN THE DISTRICT COURT
3 VS.
* JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS
4 CLEMCO INDUSTRIES, INC., *
ET AL
* 60TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
5
NO. B-138,645
6
DOROTHY DAVIS, ET AL
* IN THE DISTRICT COURT
7*
VS.
* JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS
8*
ac&s :INC., ET AL
* 60TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
9
NO. B-149,788
10
JOANN FOSTER, ET AL
* IN THE DISTRICT COURT
11 *
VS.
* JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS
12 *
A.M.F . INCORPORATED,
*
13 ET AL
* 60TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
14 NO. D-128,522 (Consolidated B-126,986)
15 LARRY LOBUE
* IN THE DISTRICT COURT
*
16 VS.
* JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS
*
17 AMERICAN PETROFINA,
*
INC., ET AL
* 60TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
18
NO. B-132,431
19
LEO MIRE
* IN THE DISTRICT COURT
20 *
VS.
* JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS
21 *
MOBIL OIL CORPORATION
* 60TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
22
23
24
25
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt
NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC.
HENRY M. TAYLOR
Page 183
1 NO. B- 134,025
2 JOHNNY LEE POWERS
* IN THE DISTRICT COURT
3 VS.
* JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS
4 AMERICAN OPTICAL CORPORATION, ET AL
* * 60TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
5
NO. B- 141,242
6 ROOSEVELT SCOTT
7 VS.
8 AMERICAN OPTICAL
9 CORPORATION, ET AL
* IN THE DISTRICT COURT *
* JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS *
*
* 60TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
10 NO. B- 148,523
11 IN THE MATTER OF THE ESTATE OF VIRGIL
12 WILLBANKS, DECEASED, ET AL
13 VS.
14 AC&S, INC., ET AL
* IN THE DISTRICT COURT *
*
*
*
* JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS *
* 60TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
15
NO. E-141,216 (Consolidated A-134,614)
16 DOROTHY LEE BARNARD,
17 ET AL
* IN THE DISTRICT COURT *
18 VS.
* JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS
19 ALLIED-SIGNAL, INC., ET AL
* * 58TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
20
NO. A- 140,498
21
JOYCE A. BORNE, ET AL
* IN THE DISTRICT COURT
22 *
VS.
* JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS
23 ALLIED-SIGNAL, INC.,
*
ET AL
* 58TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
24
25
NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC.
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt HENRY M. TAYLOR
Page 184
1 NO. A-142,945
2 LOYICE B. EBANKS
* IN THE DISTRICT COURT
3 VS.
* JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS
4 AC&S, INC., ET AL
* 58TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
5 NO. A-141,797
6 JAMES EUGLON
* IN THE DISTRICT COURT
7 VS.
8 AMERICAN OPTICAL CORPORATION, ET AL
* JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS
* * 58TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
NO. A-155,544
10
HARRY GILBERT, JR. , ET AL* IN THE DISTRICT COURT 11 *
VS. 12
AMOCO CORPORATION,
* JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS *
*
13 ET AL
* 58TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
14 NO. A-151,231
15 DONNA JONES, ET AL
* IN THE DISTRICT COURT
16 VS.
* JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS
17 AC&S INC., ET AL
* 58TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
18 NO. A-152,338
19 MARGARET PALERMO, ET AL * IN THE DISTRICT COURT
20 VS.
* JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS
21
ARCO CHEMICAL COMPANY,
*
ET AL
* 58TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
22
23
24
25
NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC.
HENRY M. TAYLOR
Page 185
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1 NO. E-150,405 (Consolidated D-145,280-B-C-D)
2 DONALD ROY SCHMIDT, ET AL* IN THE DISTRICT COURT *
3 VS.
* JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS *
4 THE AETNA CASUALTY &
*
SURETY, ET AL
* 172ND JUDICIAL DISTRICT
5
NO. A-153,063
6
ROBERT WASHINGTON 7
* IN THE DISTRICT COURT *
VS. 8
* JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS *
AMERICAN CAST IRON PIPE *
9 COMPANY, ET AL
* 58TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
10 NO. D-143,616
11 BARBARA MAE CASTRO DIDDLE, ET AL
12
* IN THE DISTRICT COURT *
*
VS. 13
* JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS *
TEXACO INC., ET AL
* 136TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
14
NO. E-149,835
15
JUDY BLACKBURN, ET AL
* IN THE DISTRICT COURT
16 *
VS.
* JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS
17
AC&S, INC., ET AL
* 172ND JUDICIAL DISTRICT
18
NO. E-153,066
19
BOYCE A. GILBERT 20
* IN THE DISTRICT COURT *
VS. 21
* JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS *
AMERICAN OPTICAL
*
22 CORPORATION, ET AL
* 172ND JUDICIAL DISTRICT
23
24
25
NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC.
HENRY M. TAYLOR
Page 186
1 NO. E-144,963 file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt (176 of 178) [4/6/2002 12:14:35 PM]
file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt
2
JUANITA FRALICK, ET AL
* IN THE DISTRICT COURT
3 VS. 4 CONOCO, ET AL
* JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS * * 172ND JUDICIAL DISTRICT
5 NO. E- 144,117
6 ALBERT PALMER, ET AL 7 VS. 8 SHELL OIL COMPANY
* IN THE DISTRICT COURT * * JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS * * 172ND JUDICIAL DISTRICT
9 NO. E- 146,212
10 BARBARA BOYD WINNINGKOFF ,* IN THE DISTRICT COURT
ET AL
*
11 *
VS.
* JEFFERSON COUNTY, TEXAS
12 *
CHEVRON U.S.A., INC.,
*
13 ET AL
* 172ND JUDICIAL DISTRICT
14 NO. 96 -3348-E
15 BERNICE DENKELER , ET AL * IN THE DISTRICT COURT
*
16 VS.
* NUECES COUNTY, TEXAS
*
17 AC&S INC., ET AL
* 148TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
18
19
20 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE TO THE DEPOSITION OF
21 HENRY M . TAYLOR
22
23 I, B. IRENE MEGUESS , a Certified Shorthand 24 Reporter for the State of Texas, hereby certify
25 pursuant to the Texas Rules of Civil Procedure
NELL McCALLUM & .ASSOCIATES, INC.
HENRY M. TAYLOR
Page 187
1 and/or agreement of the parties present to the 2 following:
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file:///P|/Depositions/Taylor-Henry-M-012497VOL1.txt 3
4 That this deposition transcript is a true
5 record of the testimony given by HENRY M. TAYLOR,
6 the witness named herein, on January 24, 1997, after
7 said witness was duly sworn by me.
8
9 SWORN TO AND SUBSCRIBED by me in Beaumont,
10 Texas, on this the
day of
, 1997.
11
12
13 B. IRENE MEGUESS, CSR, RPR
14 Certification Number: 2429
15 Expiration Date: 12-31-98
16 Nell McCallum & Associates, Inc.
17 2615 Calder, Suite 111
18 Beaumont, Texas 77702
19 409/838-0333
20
21
22
23
24
25
NELL McCALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC.
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