Document LKgDZBV6ne3QErKq2G1dpBmBb

1 2 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR THE THIRD JUDICIAL CIRCUIT MADISON COUNTY, ILLINOIS 3 4 5 IN RE: ASBESTOS LITIGATION 6 CASES FILED BY BARON & BUDD Plaintiffs, 7 8 -vs9 A. P. GREEN, ET AL., Defendants. 10 11 Deposition of G. ELLWOOD HOUGHTON held at the Sheraton Hotel, 125 North Main Street, Newark, New York on 12 the 9th day of June, 1988. 13 APPEARANCES: 14 15 16 BARON & BUDD, ESQS. Attorneys for Plaintiffs BY: FREDERICK M. BARON, ESQ. and LISA A. BLUE, Ph.D., ESQ. 8333 Douglas Avenue Dallas, Texas 75225 17 BROWN, JAMES & RABBITT, ESQS. 18 Attorneys for Defendant Crane Packing Company 19 BY: A. J. BRONSKY, ESQ., 705 Olive Suite 1100 St. Louis, Missouri 63101 20 * 21 22 23 24 CHURCHILL MC DONNELL, ESQS. Attorneys for Defendant Combustion Engineering Incorporated BY: BENJAMIN N. HEWITT, ESQ., 525 West Main Street Suite 125 Belleville, Illinois 62220 25 TIRO REPORTIW 1 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 ALSO PRESENT 22 23 24 REPORTED BY 25 60LDFEIN & JOSEPH, ESQS. Attorneys for Defendant Garlock Incorporated BY: BERNARD L. LEVINTHAL, ESQ. Packard Building, 17th Floor 15th & Chestnut Streets Philadelphia, PA 19102 GUNDLACH, LEE, EGGHANN, BOYLE & ROESSLER, ESQS. Attorneys for Defendant 3M BY: RICHARD E. BOYLE, ESQ. 5000 West Main Street Box 692 Belleville, Illinois 62222 HEYL, ROYSTER, VOELKER & ALLEN, ESQS. Attorneys for Defendant Wellington BY: BARRY S. NOELTNER, ESQ., and ROBERT H. SHULTZ, JR., ESQ. 17 Ginger Creek Meadows Edwardsville, Illinois 62025 REED, ARMSTRONG, GORMAN AND COFFEY, ESQS. Attorneys for Defendant Harbison-Walker Refractory Co. BY: STEVEN M. AROESTY, ESQ. 507 National Bank Building P.O. Box 467 Edwardsville, Illinois 62025 SKELTON, TAINTOR & ABBOTT, ESQS. Attorneys for Defendant H. K. Porter, Incorporated BY: CHARLES H. ABBOTT, ESQ. 95 Main Street P.O. Box 3200 Auburn, Maine 04210 HELEN M. ZORNOW G. Ellwood Houghton's nurse SUSAN M. ANDOLINO TIRO REPORTING SERVICE 1 2 INDEX 3 4 Witness 5 G. Ellwood Houghton 6 by Mr. Baron by Mr. Levinthal 7 8 9 EXHIBITS 10 Exhibit Number 11 Plaintiff's Exhibit 1 12 13 Defendant's Exhibit 1 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Paae Number 3-30 30-34 Paae Number 13 35 1 TIRO REPORTING SERVICE DEPOSITION- 2 1 MR. BARON: The stipulations 2 that I understand that we are entering 3 into is all objections except as to 4 form are reserved; 5 And that further the 6 deposition is being noticed for 7 evidentiary purposes and cases in which 8 the notices have already gone out. 9 There are cases pending in 10 several jurisdictions, as I understand 11 it. 12 MR. LEVINTHAL: That's 13 likewise my understanding of the 14 stipulations. 15 1 would ask that the record 16 reflect that also present is Helen 17 Zornow, who is Mr. Houghton's nurse, 18 who is present with him. 19 MR. SHULTZ: Let me say as 20 far as my involvement here on behalf of 21 Wellington, who have been named the 22 Greco lead case in Madison County, it's 23 my understanding that's the only case 24 that has been noticed. I don't have 25 TIRO REPORTING SERVICE DBPOSITION- 3 1 the list of the defendants with me, but 2 that's who appears here. 3 MR. BARON: It's all of the 4 cases in Madison County -- 5 MR. SCHULTZ: Then we have a 6 difference of opinion. It's in the 7 notice, in the Greco case and that's my 8 understanding as to how the case is, 9 which is under those -- as to those 10 defendants who have been noticed in 11 your group of cases, the Greco 12 file. 13 14 ***** 15 16 G. ELLWOOD 17 HOUGHTON, called herein as a witness, being duly sworn, testified as follows: 18 19 EXAMINATION BY MR. BARON: Q. 20 Mr. Houghton, my name is Fred Baron. Could you hear me okay, sir? 21 A. 22 Very well. Q. 23 If I am talking too loudly or too softly let me know; all right, sir? 24 A. 25 I will do that. TIRO REPORTING SERVICE 1 1 *Q. 2 3 A. 4 Q. 5 6 A. 7 Q. 8 9 A. 10 Q. 11 A. 12 Q. 13 A. 14 Q. 15 16 A. 17 Q. 18 19 A. 20 Q. 21 22 23 A. 24 Q. 25 HOUGHTON - BARON 4 Mr. Houghton, first if you would state your name for the court reporter? G. Ellwood Houghton, H-O-U-G-H-T-O-N. And you pronounce it Houghton rather than Hoeghton? (Phonetic) Yes. Mr. Houghton, can you tell us your date of birth first, please? October 22, 1905. So thatmakes you older than me. I'm 82. Some say going on 83. Mr. Houghton, where do you live now? I live in Palmyra. Okay. Mr. Houghton, you have hadyourdeposition taken at least once before, have you not, sir? Yes. So you are generally familiar with the process, you understand what a deposition is? Yes. If Z ask you a question that you don't understand, would you be sure to tell me that? I would. Because I want to be certain that we are communicating properly. All right, sir? TIRO EXPORTING SSRVICS 1 2 A. 3 Q. 4 A. 5 6 Q. 7 A. 8 9 10 11 Q. 12 13 A. 14 15 16 Q. 17 18 A. 19 20 21 22 Q. 23 24 A. 25 HOUGHTON - BARON 5 Okay. Mr. Houghton, tell me where you went to school? I went to Philadelphia Textile School -- Philadelphia Textile. I graduated in 1927. What is a textile school? A textile school was a specialized school handling various phases of the manufacturing of Yayson cloth, dying and the uses of various types of weaving, like Jacquard, that's a french name, J-A-C-Q-U-A-R-D. All right. After you finished that school, did you take a job? I was asked -- interviewed by a man from Johns-Manville, and then three of us went from that school to Johns-Manville in 1927. All right. Now, what base was Johns-Manville in that would have involved textiles? They made cloth and yarns, and they also used the yarns in a braiding department for packing. And the cloth was used in various departments, sheet goods, for gaskets and other forms of packing. Has the cloth made out of cotton or was it made out of some other material? It was cotton used in it, although the majority was of asbestos. TIRO REPORTING SERVICE 1 2 Q. 3 4 A. 5 Q. 6 A. 7 8 9 10 11 Q. 12 13 A. 14 15 16 17 Q. 18 19 A. 20 21 Q. 22 23 24 A. 25 Q. HOUGHTON - BARON 6 So Johns-Manville then would weave the asbestos into these various products that you have just described? Uh-huh. Is that right? Yes. MR. LEVINTHAL: Mr. Houghton, when he asks you a question, you have to answer verbally so the court reporter can take it down. What was your job with Johns-Manville in the asbestos textile business? Over the 12 years I was there, I was in the various departments in the manufacturing and supervision of yarn manufacturers, fabric manufacturers and also in the making of safety clothing. Were all these things made out of asbestos fibers, primarily? No. They were blended with other products like rubber. But did all of the products that you have discussed contain asbestos fibers as part of their components? Yes. Did you become familiar then with the process by TIRO REPORTING SERVICE 1 2 3 A. 4 Q. 5 6 A. 7 Q. 8 A. 9 Q. 10 A. 11 Q. 12 A. 13 Q. 14 15 16 A. 17 18 19 Q. 20 21 22 A. 23 24 25 Q. HOUGHTON - BARON 7 which asbestos was woven into these goods? What was your first part of that? Did you become familiar with the way the process worked to weave asbestos into these goods? Yes. Now, in 1939, did you leave Johns-Manville? In 1939, I went to Garlock, G-A-R-L-O-C-K. And where was Garlocklocated? In Palmyra, New York. What job did you take with Garlock? Superintendent of the Asbestos Textile Department. Was that generally the same type of department that you worked at Johns-Manville? Was it the same type of business? Yes. Johns-Manville had -- Johns-Manville was made up of about 12 different departments, but one of them was Asbestos Textile Manufacturing. Well, when you went to work for Garlock in the Asbestos Department as a superintendent, what was your job? What did you actually have to do? I was hired to learn the various phases of asbestos textile production. At the moment that I was hired, I was -- probably most of my time was with weaving. Now, at that period of time in 1939, were you aware TIRO REPORTING SERVICE 1 2 3 4 5 6 A. 7 Q. 8 9 A. 10 11 12 Q. 13 14 15 16 17 18 Q. 19 A. 20 21 22 23 Q. 24 25 HOUGHTON - BARON 8 that there were certain things that you had to do to protect workers against breathing dust on the job? MR. LEVINTHAL: Objection to the form. You can answer the question. Where dust was high intensity, masks were required. How did you know that masks had to be used? Was that something that was common in the industry? I guess the only thing would be the judgment of the management; if it was a dusty position, they would require wearing a mask. .. Okay. Now, was there a standard or a requirement for how much dust could be in the air around that time? MR. SHULTZ; Clarify. Could you clarify, please, what time you are talking about? I am talking about 1939. There was a federal limit for what various companies would try to stay within, and that was 5 million particles per cubic foot. That's depending on how you arrive at that figure. Okay. And in order to determine whether you were in the figure or out of the figure, did you have to do dust counting from time to time? TIRO REPORTING SERVICE 1 2 A. 3 4 5 Q. 6 7 A. 8 9 Q. 10 11 12 A. 13 14 Q. 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 A. 22 23 Q. 24 A. 25 HOUGHTON - BARON 9 The insurance companies sent people to take specimens, samples on different parts of the factory. Has the dust that they were counting primarily asbestos dust? Hell, when you take dust, like it would include any dust you might make from your cotton, too. Hell, was the standard that you are referring to generally called the asbestos standard for dust in the air? Hell, I guess manufacturing asbestos, you would classify as asbestos dust. Hould it be fair to say that it was known by 1939 when you went to work for Garlock, that if a worker breathed too much asbestos dust that he had a good chance of getting ill? HR. LEVINTHAL: Objection. MR. SHULTZ: Objection. Leading. It was not a subject that we had brought up to us to discuss. Hell, do you know why there was a standard? It was not explained to us why asbestos was a harmful drug. TIRO REPORTING SERVICE 1 2 Q. 3 4 5 A. 6 7 8 9 Q. 10 A. 11 Q. 12 A. 13 Q. 14 15 A. 16 Q. 17 A. 18 Q. 19 20 21 A. 22 23 24 Q. 25 HOUGHTON " BARON 10 Do you know why people had to wear respirators? MR. LEVINTHAL: Objection to the form. Nell, you find a man in any industry or even on the farm, if it's dusty, you are annoyed by the dust, so you protect against it, but the physiological discussions were not analyzed by us. How long did you stay working for Garlock? I worked with them for about -- about 40 years. And during the 40-year period, did your job change? Oh, yes. How long did you stay as superintendent in the asbestos textile area? About 21 years. That would have thenbeen upuntil 1960? Yes. Now, during the period of timethat you worked in the asbestos textile area, did you participate in this work to help ventilate the area? Yes. My job in being superintendent was, I was also the engineer designing mines to improve dust conditions. Did you remain in that position all the way up to 1960? TIRO REPORTING SERVICE 1 2 A. 3 4 Q. 5 6 7 8 9 10 Q. 11 12 13 A. 14 15 Q. 16 17 18 A. 19 Q. 20 21 A. 22 23 24 25 Q. HOUGHTON - BARON 11 Yes. Also in the rest of my employment there, I was a consultant. Was there reference materials that you could look at to help you understand how to control dust where asbestos was being used? MR. LEVINTHAL: Objection. Do you want to clarify at what point in time? Proa the beginning of your employment at Garlock in 1939, were there reference materials that you could look at to determine how to control asbestos dust? No. It was left to us to determine the best means to control dust. Okay. Now, I think you were talking about earlier threshold limit values, were you not, TLV's, the federal standard you were talking about? Yes. When did you become aware that there was a TLV for asbestos dust? I Would -- I would not be able to give you any date, but the general work of supervision, you know you are trying to make it a better working condition for the operator. And were you also trying to be sure that the TIRO REPORTING SERVICE 1 2 3 4 A. 5 Q. 6 7 A. 8 Q. 9 A. 10 Q. 11 A. 12 Q. 13 A. 14 15 16 17 18 Q. 19 20 A. 21 22 Q. 23 24 A. 25 HOUGHTON - BARON 12 operator would not get sick from an asbestos disease? That was not brought up as a subject. Well, you were a participant in something called the Asbestos Textile Institute, were you not? I was the representative from Garlock. When did you become the representative from Garlock? I think it was probably about 1945. And what was the Asbestos Textile Institute? Where was it? What was it? The Asbestos Textile Institute was an organization composed of all the asbestos textiles manufacturers and the miners in Canada, and there were some miners in the United States. There may have been some representatives of South Africa. And what was the purpose of the Asbestos Textile Institute? The major purpose was in finding better ways for merchandizing the product. Did they also get involved in other issues such as health issues? Yes. There would be some discussions of health. MR. BARON: Let me have you TIRO REPORTING SERVICE 1 2 3 4 5 Q. 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 A. 14 Q. 15 16 A. 17 18 Q. 19 20 21 A. 22 23 Q. 24 A. 25 HOUGHTON - BARON mark this document as PX 1. 13 {Whereupon Plaintiff's Exhibit 1 was marked for identification.) Sir, I have in front of me a three page document that we have had marked by the court reporter as Plaintiff's Exhibit number 1. It is the minutes of a meeting of the Asbestos Textile Institute held on March the 8th, 1956 in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. It shows in attendance that there was a G. E. Houghton present from Garlock Packing Company. Was that you? Yes. Probably. Do you remember being at a meeting at the Asbestos Textile Institute on March 8, 1956? As for the date, I wouldn't be able to claim, but I was sent to these various meetings, yes. All right. Now, when you would attend a meeting, afterwards, would you generally receive some written minutes of the meeting? Minutes would be issued to the various members and they would be mailed to the company. Did you read the minutes from time to time? Most of the minutes would be mailed and copied to me. TIRO REPORTING SERVICE 1 2 Q. 3 4 A. 5 Q. 6 7 A. 8 Q. 9 A. 10 Q. 11 12 13 A. 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 HOUGHTON - BARON 14 Okay. Did they generally, accurately reflect what went on during the meeting? Yes. He had a good secretary. Now, at this particular meeting, the president of the group was an F. J. Wakem from Johns-Manville? Yes. Did you know him? Yes. We pronounced it Wecom. (Phonetic) In the minutes that I have in front of me, which is PX number 1, first of all, I will ask you: You have been shown these minute before, have you not? Probably. MR. LEVINTHAL: I think the record should reflect on the front page of PX 1 where it indicates that Mr. G. E. Houghton of Garlock Packing Company was in attendance, he was there with a Mr. Frank Gatke from the Asbestos Textile Company. ' I think that the record should reflect what this indicates is that these two men were also in attendance as "representatives of two former member companies.H TIRO REPORTING SERVICE 1 2 Q. 3 4 5 6 7 A. 8 9 10 11 Q. 12 13 14 A. 15 Q. 16 A. 17 18 19 20 Q. 21 A. 22 Q. 23 24 A. 25 HOUGHTON - BARON 15 Mr. Houghton, in the minutes of the meeting under paragraph 9 it states as follows: "The Fellowship Report was presented by Dr. Shaw and is attached as part of the minutes of this meeting." Who was Dr. Shaw? Dr. Shaw was an engineer who did assignments -- research assignments at various projects. He would be assigned different projects over the years, and he would report back to the organization. All right. In paragraph 6 it states: "The next report was presented by D. R. Holmes, Chairman of the Air Hygiene Committee." Who was he? I can't recall exactly what his job was. What was the Air Hygiene Committee? It would be associated with both the Federal requirements and the conditions throughout the industry. They would be associated with any -- with the insurance companies who studied dust conditions. Did you ever serve on the Air Hygiene Committee? No. Did Garlock ever have a representative on the Air Hygiene Committee? Not as such. The Asbestos Institute was mainly concerned with sales. TIRO REPORTING SERVICE 1 2 Q. 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Q. 10 11 A. 12 Q. 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 A. 22 Q. 23 A. 24 25 HOUGHTON - BARON 16 I am going to read you a portion of this paragraph to see if it refreshes your recollection, sir. MR. SHULTZ. I am going to object to the form of that question, because I don't think he testified to a lack of recollection that needs to be refreshed. Do you remember anything that happened at that meeting on March the 8th of 1956? My memory wouldn't give you very much information. All right. Let me try to refresh your recollection by reading from this paragraph. It talks about the report of the Air Hygiene Committee and it states: "The comments of Dr. Smith of Johns-Manville Corporation related to the report issued by Dr. Hueper on a subject relating asbestosis with lung and heart diseases was discussed at great length." Did you know at that time what the disease asbestosis was in 1956? Yes. What did you understand asbestosis was in 1956? Asbestosis was usually the result of a person being exposed to asbestos for may be years of working. And the best I could understand was that your lungs TIRO REPORTING SERVICE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Q. 9 10 A. 11 12 13 14 Q. 15 16 17 18 19 20 A. 21 Q. 22 A. 23 24 Q. 25 HOUGHTON - BARON 17 are equipped to work with dust. All of us are in dust anyway. So, there is a washing means in your lungs, but sometimes if you are working with a too concentrated dust, it overloads that lung from it's clearing and washing out itself and some of the dust will remain in the lung. When did you first learn about the disease asbestosis? Well, when is kind of odd to give you a date, but X think over years of experience, you become aware of some of these terms. So I think that probably in the 1940's, I was aware of what asbestosis was. Okay. Now, this paragraph discusses the report by Dr. Hueper that related asbestosis with lung and heart diseases. Do you recall exactly what he was talking about? MR. ABBOTT: I object. I don't think it's establish -- Lungand heart diseases? Yes. No. X don't think X could give youanycomments on that. Okay. Were you aware at that time that asbestos had also been linked to cancer of the lungs? TIRO REPORTING SERVICE 1 2 3 4 A. 5 6 7 8 9 Q. 10 11 A. 12 Q, 13 A. 14 15 16 17 18 Q. 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 HOUGHTON - BARON 18 MR. ABBOTT: Objection. Leading. I don't recall tying in cancer with asbestos. I did understand that asbestosis was a blanking out of the effectiveness of your lungs; you become less and less able to get resultive breathing, more of blanking out. Now, Mr. Houghton, were you the person who was in charge of safety at Garlock? Has I the person who -- Were you in charge of safety and health at Garlock? Not as such. We had a safety department, but my job was handling manufacturing. If we had a condition where the dust was more than the federal government, we would do -- work to improve the other means of picking up the dust to remove it from the air. All right. Now, this Exhibit number 1 that we have had marked, I will have you look at it for a minute. Does this appear to be a true and correct copy of the minutes? Does this appear what it looks like? MR. SHULTZ: Are you asking if those are true and correct copies that he received or do they just look like other minutes that he received? TIRO REPORTING SERVICE 1 2 Q- 3 4 5 6 7 8 Q. 9 10 A. 11 12 Q. 13 14 15 A. 16 Q. 17 18 19 A. 20 21 22 23 24 Q. 25 HOUGHTON - BARON Does that appear to be a true and correct copy of 19 the minutes as you would have received them from the Asbestos Textile Institute? MR. LEVINTHAL: Are you asking him the minutes in general or the minutes of March 8, 1956? Do you have a specific recollection of that document? Specific is not a very good word for me. No, I don't think I could give you a good answer. Does this generally appear to be the type of a document that you would receive as minutes from the Asbestos Textile Institute? Yes. Does this look to you to be an accurate copy of the type of minutes that you would receive from the Asbestos Textile Institute? Yes. MR. SHULTZ: Objection to the * form. MR. LKVINTHAL: Object to the form. Do you have any reason to doubt that this is a correct copy of the minutes of the Asbestos Textile TIRO REPORTING SERVICE 1 2 3 4 A. 5 6 7 8 Q. 9 10 11 12 13 A. 14 15 16 Q. 17 18 A. 19 20 21 22 23 Q. 24 A. 25 Q. HOUGHTON - BARON 20 Institute? MR. SHULTZ: Objection -- It looks like -- MR. SHULTZ: Let me state my objection. I object to the form as being argumentative and leading. So, as far as you're concerned, sir, if I understand your testimony, you have no specific recollection of this particular set of minutes, but you believe that it looks like the minutes that you received in the., past? That's a Xerox of that. MR. ABBOTT: I object -- MR. LEVINTHAL: Objection. Now, you worked at the facility here in New York the whole time, did you not? Hell, I have hadassignments to various factories, but my major job was asbestos textile in Garlock, but I worked in several of the departments in Garlock. I have been to Camden, New Jersey one of the plants that makes Teflon and related projects. Do you know a person by the name of Grace Baylord? Clayton Baylord? Grace Baylord? TIRO REPORTING SERVICE 1 2 A. 3 4 Q. 5 6 7 8 9 10 Q. 11 12 13 14 15 A. 16 Q. 17 18 19 20 21 22 A. 23 Q. 24 25 A. HOUGHTON - BARON 21 It may have been the name, but I don't remember too well. Do you remember when Grace Baylord filed a workers' compensation claim in 1957 for asbestos dust related diseases at your facility?. MR. LEVINTHAL: Objection. He has just testified that he doesn't recognize the name Grace Baylord. Do you remember that there were workers' compensation claims filed against Garlock for .. asbestos related diseases? MR. LEVINTHAL: Objection to the form. I think I knew of some instances, yes. Okay. Now, the last time you gave a deposition, you were asked if you remembered a claim that was filed on November 14, 1957 by a women named Grace Baylord, who had been employed in the Textiles Department for about 22 years, and you said yes, you remembered her married name? Yes. Does that now refresh your recollection that you remember Grace Baylord? I know Grace Baylord, yes. TIRO REPORTING SERVICE 1 2 Q. . 3 A. 4 Q. 5 6 7 8 A. 9 10 Q. 11 12 A. 13 Q. 14 A. 15 16 17 Q. 18 19 A. 20 21 Q* 22 23 A. 24 Q. 25 HOUGHTON - BARON 22 Did she work under your supervision? Yes. And were you aware that in 1957 when she was working under your supervision she filed a workers* compensation claim for asbestosis? Do you remember that? I think -- I can't state I remember that, but it would be to our Safety Department, not to me. Hell, were you made aware of the fact that she was claiming asbestosis? .. I think I may have heard that she was theone. Did you investigate that at all? I think she had been working formany years as a creel operator; that's a connection with a loom, and she was a twister operator. Do you know of any other people who worked at Garlock that claimed asbestosis? I can't give you a name of any others that claimed it. BUt were you aware that others did claim it from time to time? Yes. Has that in your area of responsibility or was that another department that handled those claims? TIRO REPORTING SERVICE 1 2 A. 3 4 5 Q. 6 A. 7 8 Q. 9 10 A. 11 Q. 12 13 14 A. 15 16 17 Q. 18 A. 19 20 21 Q. 22 A. 23 24 Q. 25 A. HOUGHTON - BARON 23 Garlock had a procedure of having all of the workers in the Textile Department sent over to Clifton Springs about every other year for an X-ray. When did that procedure begin? I can only give you an approximate date. Probably about 1950. And why did they send them over to Clifton Springs every year for an X-ray beginning at about 1956? Every other year. Excuse me, every other year. Why did they do that? MR. LEVINTHAL: Object to the form. To check if there was any health problems developing in the individuals. They would move anyone that was a possible question to other departments. A possible question of what, sir? If they found signs of any lung accumulation, they might take them out and move them to another section of the factory. Lung accumulation of what? Well, that would be the dust that I have just mentioned to you. The asbestos dust? Yes. TIRO REPORTING SERVICE 1 2 Q. 3 4 A. 5 6 7 Q. 8 9 10 A. 11 12 13 14 Q. 15 16 A. 17 Q. 18 19 20 A. 21 Q. 22 23 A. 24 Q. 25 HOUGHTON - BARON 24 And if they found accumulation of asbestos dust in the lung, they would then do what? They would move them to another area of the factory, and the usual result was that the person -- the X-rays improved. When you say to another area of the factory, would that have been an area where they were also using asbestos? No. Garlock was made up of about 12 different departments. So there were -- it could be secretarial or it could be another type of manufacturing. All right. So was it Garlock's policy then to try to catch these problems early? Yes. As soon as they found a problem in the lung from asbestos, they would then move the worker out of the asbestos area? That was usually the action, yes. And again let's talk about what time-frame. You believe that was about 1950 when that began? I think the X-ray was started around 1950. Okay. Now, to your knowledge, did Garlock ever do any dust counting in the areas where their product TIRO REPORTING SERVICE 1 2 3 A. 4 5 Q. 6 7 8 9 A. 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 Q. 18 19 A. 20 Q. 21 22 23 A. 24 Q. 25 HOUGHTON - BARON 25 was being used by purchasers? I do not know of any use of a dust counter in somebody that uses that product. So, would it be fair to say that the dust counting only went on in the Garlock plant where the workers that were using the product were? MR. LEVINTHAL: Objection -- It -- MR. LEVINTHAL: I have an objection to the question. It's a . mischaracterization of his testimony. He says he doesn't know if it occurred. MR. SHULTZ: A further objection as to the form of the question. Leading. Garlock, as I understand it, would do dust counting in their plants from time to time? correct? Yes. To your knowledge, did they ever do dust counting wheire their product was being used outside the plant by their customers? Not that I know of. To your knowledge, did Garlock ever place warnings on their materials about the potential hazards of TIRO REPORTING SERVICE 1 2 3 A. 4 5 Q. 6 7 8 9 A. 10 11 Q. 12 13 A. 14 Q. 15 16 A. 17 18 Q. 19 20 A. 21 22 23 Q. 24 A. 25 HOUGHTON - BARON 26 asbestos? I think throughout the industry, probably that there was not that kind of an action. All right. I am not talking about the industry now. I am talking about Garlock. To your knowledge, did Garlock ever put a warning on any of its products about the hazards of asbestos? Not that I know of. I was not in that -- I was in manufacturing and so on, and not in the sales. Okay. Did you ever see sales brochures concerning, the products? No. Did you ever see the products actually being installed by users? Oh, that's kind of a -- I have seen packing installed. I have installed them myself. When you installed packing, did you ever wear a respirator? No. No dust was created in handling packing. It's usually either impregnated with rubber or a grease and there is no dust. Did you ever measure the dust? NO " MR. ABBOTT: Objection. TIRO REPORTING SERVICE 1 2 A. 3 4 Q. 5 6 A. 7 Q. B A. 9 Q. 10 A. 11 Q. 12 13 14 A. 15 16 Q. 17 18 A. 19 Q. 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. HOUGHTON - BARON 27 No. As of the use of the product, I measured it in our own manufacturing operation. Now, asbestos fibers could be very small, can't they? Yes. Do you know what five microns is? Yes. The human eye can't see five microns, can it? No. You need a microscope. And if dust that has particles of five microns or . less is in a room, can you see it with your naked eye? You could see a haze if there was a high percentage of dust in the area. But would the room appear to be dusty to somebody looking at fibers less than five microns? Only in the accumulation it might form. It terms of the air itself though, it would not appear dusty if there were fibers of five or less microns; correct? MR. LEVINTHAL: Objection. MR. SHULTZ: Objection. Leading. You would have to magnify it. TIRO REPORTING SERVICE 1 2 *Q. 3 4 A. 5 Q. 7 8 9 10 Q. 11 12 13 14 A. 15 16 17 Q. 18 19 20 21 22 23 A. 24 25 Q. HOUGHTON - BARON 28 What you*re saying, you couldn't see it without a microscope? That's right. Now, you mentioned earlier that it was common in the industry about not placing warnings on packages. Do you remember you stated that? MR. ABBOTT: I think that is a mischaracterization. Is that your understanding of what was done generally in the industry? MR. ABBOTT: What time-frame -- I have been away from the sales completely. I was not in that, so I couldn't give you a comment on what the sales do. Okay. What was your basis for saying that it was common in the industry not to place warnings on these products? How did you know that? MR. ABBOTT: Objection. MR. SHULTZ: I don't understand what industry means. Again, I was not associated with sales at all, so I couldn't give you much help. Well, why did you make that statement, sir? TIRO REPORTING SERVICE 1 2 3 A. 4 Q. 5 6 7 A. 6 9 10 Q. 11 A. 12 13 Q. 14 A. 15 Q. 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Q. 23 24 25 HOUGHTON - BARON 29 MR. ABBOTT: Objection. Which statement? The statement where you said that it was common in the industry not to place warnings on packages? MR. ABBOTT: Same objection. I don't know how X could give you a better answer than, as far as I know, they didn't put warning signs on sales products. Now, you left Garlock in 1970, did you not? Well, I had retired in *70, but X kept being called back for about eight or nine years. They couldn't live without you? Well, they found my work was some help. Do you also believe, based on your knowledge of the industry, that at least by the 1950's the industry was aware of the disease asbestosis? MR. LEVINTHAL: Objection. MR. ABBOTT: Objection. MR. SHULTZ: Objection to the * form of the question -- He is going to make an objection first. He is going to be objectionable for a minute, then you can answer. MR. SHULTZ: Let me speak. X TIRO REPORTING SERVICE 1 HOUGHTON - BARON 30 2 object to the form of the question as 3 leading, and I object to the vagueness 4 of the question, in that there is the 5 generic word of industry use. 6 Q# Okay. Now you can answer the question. 7 A. Asbestosis has been known for a good many years. 8 Asbestosis has normally been the result of several 9 years exposure to dust in the atmosphere. 10 Q. Was that generally what was known by the 1950's in 11 the asbestos industry as you knew it? - 12 MR. LEVINTHAL: Objection. 13 MR. SHULTZ: Same objection as 14 I stated earlier. 15 A. It was known, yes. 16 Q. Mr. Houghton, thank you very much. I'm finished 17 with you. I don't know whether these other people 18 have questions or not, but I appreciate your being 19 here. 20 (Whereupon there was a brief recess in the 21 proceedings.) 22 EXAMINATION BY MR. LEVINTHAL: 23 Q. Mr. Houghton, I am going to ask you a few questions 24 and follow-up on some of the things that Mr. Baron 25 asked you. Okay? TIRO REPORTING SERVICE 1 2 A. 3 4 5 6 7 Q. 8 9 A. 10 11 Q. 12 13 14 15 A. 16 17 18 19 20 Q. 21 22 23 A. 24 Q. 25 HOUGHTON - LEVINTHAL 31 Okay. MR. BARON: Would you mind identifying youraelf for the record? MR. LEVINTHAL: Bernard Levinthal. I represent Garlock. Now, Mr. Houghton, am I correct that you were never actually an officer of Garlock, a corporate officer? I have only had the superintendent office and later as an engineer, but no, I was not. Okay. Now, Mr. Baron asked you some questions about what he marked PX 1, the minutes of the ATI meeting of March 8, 1956. You recall him asking you questions about those minutes? I don't recall any meeting that was held, because of this -- MR. BARON: I'm going to object. He wasn't responsive to the question. I will straighten it out. The first thing I am asking you: You recall Mr. Baron asking you questions about it, right, just a few minutes ago? Yes. Okay. Now, am I correct then that what you are saying is you do not recall this particular meeting TIRO REPORTING SERVICE 1 2 3 4 5 A. 6 7 Q. 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 Q. 15 16 17 A. 18 Q. 19 20 21 22 Q. 23 A. 24 25 HOUGHTON - LEVINTHAL 32 of March 8, 1956? MR. BARON: Objection. Very leading. When he specifies a date, I don't have that in my mind. Okay. Just to clear the record, I will ask it another way. Do you have any recollection of the meeting where Dr. Hueper spoke to the ATI? MR. BARON: Objection. That's a mischaracterization. Dr. Hueper didn't speak. They discuss Dr. Hueper. Do you have any recollection of the meeting where Dr. Hueper's report was discussed at the ATI meeting? No, not this particular report. Do you have any recollection of ever receiving the minutes of the meeting -- these minutes there in front of you now? ` MR. SHULTZ: Plaintiff's 1? PX 1? Not a specific remembrance. It would go over my desk and I would read them, but not any particular date is sticking out in my mind. TIRO REPORTING SERVICE 1 2 Q. 3 4 A. 5 6 7 8 9 Q. 10 11 12 13 14 A. 15 Q. 16 A. 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. HOUGHTON - LEVINTHAL 33 Were there also at times ever people from Garlock who would represent Garlock at the ATI meetings? Yes. Others would go, and usually before they went, they would come over and have a briefing, because they didn't know what asbestos textiles were. So I was the one explaining it to them and they would go to the meeting. Now, Mr. Houghton, when Mr. Baron first showed you these minutes, I said something for the record about it saying here that you were representing Garlock, which was a former member company of the ATI. Do you remember me saying that? That I was a former member? That Garlock was a former member of the ATI? I think I do remember that Garlock was a member, more or less, of the original forming of the Asbestos Textile Institute, but it was mainly composed of finding ways for merchandizing the product. Garlock was actually merchandizing it within its own, not as an asbestos product, but as packing. So they found that whatever dues they paid wasn't bringing in very much return, so for a while, they dropped out. Garlock dropped up? TIRO REPORTING SERVICE 1 2 3 A. 4 Q. 5 6 A. 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 HOUGHTON - LEVINTHAL 34 MR. ABBOTT: Not responsive. They went back in again. Just to clear up the record, did there come a time when Garlock dropped out as a member o the ATI? Yes. MR. LEVINTHAL: I have nothing further. Does anybody have any questions? (No response) MR. BARON: Thank you very much. (Whereupon there was an off-the-record discussion.) MR. BARON: There is an agreement with counselor that I am going to leave the original Exhibit 1 with you, but I am going to send you a better copy to substitute for that so that you could attach that to the ' deposition and everyone agrees with that. MR. SHULTZ: I would ask if the court reporter could attach the notice of deposition as an exhibit or TIRO REPORTING SERVICE 1 DEPOSITION 35 2 court exhibit or my exhibit or whatever 3 to the deposition. In fact, mark it as 4 Defendant's Exhibit 1. 5 (Whereupon Defendant's Exhibit 1 was marked for 6 identification.) 7 8 9 10 11 12 ****** 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 TIRO REPORTING SERVICE CERTIFICATI 0 N 1 2 I hereby certify that I reported in stenotype shorthand 3 .4 the foregoing proceedings; And that this transcript is a true, accurate and 5 complete record of those stenotype shorthand notes. 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 DATED Nionn hi v (uxtbLlm p3, )W\xfie- 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25