Document LK0OYgZBvY7w3eyoVpVN2EqQq

y 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OP FLORIDA 2 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, ) 3) Plaintiff, ) 4 vs. ) PEPPER'S STEEL AND ALLOYS, INC.,) 5 FLORIDA POWER & LIGHT COMPANY, ) NORTON BLOOM, THOMAS A. ) 6 CURTIS, WILLIAM PAYNE, ) FLORA B. PAYNE and LOWELL PAYNE,) 7) Defendants. ) 8 PEPPER'S STEEL AND ALLOYS, INC. ) 9 and NORTON BLOOM, ) > 10 Cross-Plaintiffs, ) Case No. vs. ) 11 FLORIDA POWER & LIGHT COMPANY, ) 85-0571-CIV-SPELLMAN ) 12 Cross-Defendant. ) 13 FLORIDA POWER & LIGHT COMPANY, ) ) 14 Cross-Plaintiff and ) Third-Party Plaintiff, ) 15 vs. ) PEPPER'S STEEL AND ALLOYS, INC.,) 16 et a 1 . , 17 Cross-Defendants, and 18 UNITED STATES FIDELITY AND GUARANTY COMPANY, et al. 19 Third-Party Defendants. ) 20 Deposition of Witness 21 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE On Behalf of Pepper's and Bloom 22 Volume II 23 February 22, 1990 24 25 Reported bys JUNE M. FUNKHOUSER, RPR, CCR, CSR of CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. ------------------------( 314 ) 72 7-650 3--------------------- WATER PCB-SD000006035 179 1 INDEX OF EXAMINATION 2 WITNESS * Page 3 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE; 4 Cont'd Direct Examination by Mr. Granoff 181 5 Cross-Examination by Mr. Smith . . . 0 235 6 Cross-Examination by Ms. Nelson. . 305 7 Cross-Examination by Mr. dayman . 0 e 308 8 Cross-Examination by Ms. Berkowitz e e e o 335 9 Cross-Examination by Ms. Rumage. * . 347 10 Redirect Examination by Mr. Granoff. a 9 e 369 11 Recross-Examination by Ms. Berkowitz e e e 370 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ( 11 4 > `7T7_K^n-3 WATER PCB-SD0000060392 180 1 INDEX OF EXHIBITS r 2 Exhibit Page Page Number Marked Iden . Description 3 381 188 188 Collection of Documents, 4 raid-1970 to 2-23-71 5 382 6 212 212 Open Letter to Electric Utility Customers from GE 7 383 8 384 9 215 219 215 219 Minutes of Meeting, 10-2-74 Two Documents, Monsanto Letterhead 10 385 11 221 222 FP&L Materials Returned to Monsanto for Incineration 12 386 228 228 Inter-Office Correspondenc c 13 to File from D. Chow, 2-26-82 14 387 15 251 251 Transformer Askarel Inspection and Maintenance Guide 16 388 17 18 389 19 299 302 299 303 Purchase Orders FP&L and FP&L Materials Returned to Monsanto for Incineration Letter w/Attachment from H. Bergen, 2-4-72 20 21 Original s Exhibits Retained by Counsel for Pepper's and Bloom 22 23 24 4: 25 ' (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000060393 181 1 Now, this being the 22nd day of 2 February, 1990, the same being Thursday, all parties 3 being present, the witness, WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE, 4 testifies further, to-witi 5 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 6 being previously produced, sworn and examined on 7 behalf of Pepper's and Bloom, deposeth and saith: 8 CONTINUED DIRECT EXAMINATION 9 BY MR. GRANOFF; 10 Q. Mr. Papageorge, I just want to re mind 11 you you're still under oath. 12 A. 1 understand. 13 Q. Okay. During the time frame from the 14 ANSI Cl 0 7 o rganizational meeti ng in September 1971 15 until the adoption of C107 in January 1974, did you 16 learn whether there were any international groups or 17 committees addressing the PCB or the evolving PCB 18 environmental issue? 19 A. I was informed that a European 20 organization with the acronym CIGRE, C-I-G-R-E I 21 believe are the letters, which is the equivalent of 22 the American NEMA organization, was addressing the 23 PCB issue. 24 Q. Did you receive any input from any 25 representative of CIGRE as to exactly how they were CLAYTON...REPORTING...COMPANY......LTD .............................................. / O o -7 _ * * n O WATER PCB-SD0000060394 182 1 addressing the PCB issue? 2 A a No. 3 Q. Did anyone from the ANSI C107 Committee 4 report to you what they had heard or learned as to 5 where CIGRE was going with their investigation as to 6 the PCB issue? 7 A. I was aware of the activities to a 8 rather limited degree as a result of discussions 9 held by the Transformer Working Committee in ANSI. 10 Q. And what can you relate to me as to the 11 nature of the discussions within the Transformer 12 Working Committee? I assume you mean the 13 subcommittee? 14 A. The subcommittee, yes. 15 Q. As to what they understood or members of 16 that Transformer Working Committee understood that 17 CIGRE was doing if I understand your last response 18 correctly. 19 A. CIGRE was in some respects just becoming 20 aware of the severity of the situation. As I 21 understood it, members within CIGRE were skeptical 22 of the existence of the problem. And yet they were 23 going to try to get a consensus amongst the European 24 PCB manufacturers and users regarding a responsible 25 approach that they could collectively take that fit CLAYTON REP ORTI.NG...COMPANY, LTD.............................................. i ii i i m.csm WATER PCB-SD0000060395 183 % 1 the European situation. 2 Q. Did you learn at any point from 3 September 1971 until adoption of ANSI standard C107 4 or approval rather of ANSI Cl07 in January 197 4 5 whether CIGRE had in any way addressed the issue of 6 mineral oil contamination by PCBs? 7 A. Not specifically, no. 8 Q. Had you heard anything generally as to 9 that issue of PCB contamination of mineral oil as 10 addressed by the CIGRE organization or group? 11 A. In a genera 1 way I was made aware that 12 their problems regarding the handling and use of 13 PCBs in electrical manufacturing equipment were 14 virtually identical to those experienced by the 15 American manufacturers and users of the electrical 16 equipment. 17 Q. You just used the term handling and 18 use. Is the term -- Would the term disposal also 19 apply as to the same problems CIGRE was having as to 20 the American manufacturers and users? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Did I cut you off on your last answer? 23 A . No . 24 Q. Okay. I'm sorry. You mentioned the 25 name of Edward Raab, R-a-a-b, a number of times CiiAYTON...REPORTI.NG...COMPANY.,....LTD ............................................. m n 7T7_CKn'j WATER PCB-SD0000060396 184 1 yesterday and I don't think I asked this question. 2 If I did, I'm sorry. Do you recollect your last 3 contact with Mr. Raab? 4 A. As best as I can recall, Mr. Raab 5 attended a PCB meeting in St. Louis in 1974. I 6 believe that is the last time I personally met and 7 spoke with him prior to his retirement from General 8 Electric. 9 Q. When you say a PCB meeting, you mean a 10 meeting of the Transformer Subcommittee in 11 connection with Cl07? 12 A. No, this was a meeting called for by 13 Monsanto to which we invited customers and service 14 company representatives and government people. Sort 15 of a symposium on PCBs to discuss the state of 16 knowledge that existed at that time. 17 Q. And my terminology, would it be an 18 update as to where you all had come since 19 approximately 1968 or '69? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q . To 1970? 22 A. That's a good way to describe it. 23 Q. Okay. Are there any written -- Strike 24 that. 25 Were there any written materials CLAYTON...REPORTING...COMPANY ,...LTD.............................................. WATER PCB-SD0000060397 185 1 generated as a result of that symposium or in 2 anticipation of the symposium? 3 A. There were -- There were some documents 4 regarding the arrangements concerning a meeting and 5 the invitations to attend the meeting and there was 6 also a set of minutes of the meeting published and 7 sent to the participants and to anyone else who 8 might be interested and requested those 9 Q. If I were interested in getting a copy 10 of the meeting minutes, do you know who would be in 11 possession of those minutes presently? 12 A. Well, I don't know but I would try 13 Monsanto's legal department. 14 Q. Okay. Did you head up that symposium in 15 1974? 16 No . 17 Q Do you know who did? 18 A. The chairman of the symposium 19 business group director, Mr . Howard Bergen 20 B-e-r--g-e-n. 21 Q. Okay. Do you know if there was a 22 mailing list to advise prospective attendees 23 advising them of this upcoming symposium? 24 A. I don't recall seeing a list. 25 Q. But notwithstanding, you do feel secure .eUftyTON...REPORTING...COMPANY.,....DTP.i. nui 7T7_K=in') WATER PCB-SD0000060398 186 1 that Raab attended the symposium? 2 A. Oh, I'm certain of that, yes. In fact, 3 I think he was one of the spokesmen or one of the 4 active participants, 5 Q. That was going to be ray follow-up 6 question. Do you know to what extent Raab 7 participated in the symposium? 8 A. Oh, I don't know how to quantify it. i. 9 Q. Well, I would say to the extent of the 10 subject matter if he had any specific areas that he 11 addressed. 12 A. Well, he spoke primarily on the ANSI 13 working committee that he chaired as well as made 14 comments regarding his involvement with General 15 Electric activities. 16 Q. As part of symposium was there any - 17 anyone who addressed the issue specifically of PCB 18 contamination of mineral oil? 19 A. I don't believe that was addressed as a 20 specific item. 21 Q. Do you recollect whether the issue of 22 PCB contamination of mineral oil was addressed as 23 part of a larger subject matter by any one of the 24 speakers ? 25 A. Mr. Raab when reviewing the ANSI CLAYTON...REPORT.ING...COMPANY.,....LTD.,-----------------------------------(314) 727-6^03 WATER PCB-SD0000060399 187 1 Transformer Committee's activities covered the areas 2 that were addressed in the final document th^t the 3 committee put out. And in there I recall~Tie talked 4 about mineral oil containing PCBs and solvents 5 containing PCBs. 6 Q . Okay. As chairman of ANSI Cl07 were you 7 concerned with gaining a representational 8 cross-section of industry manufacturers and users of 9 PCB to sit on the committee? 10 A . Yes , definitely. 11 Q. Did you feel that the interests of the 12 utility industry was appropriately and adequately 13 served by the attendance of the Electric Light & 14 Power Group? 15 A. Yes. I had no reason to believe 16 otherwise. 17 Q. And as you look back on the years that 18 you served as chairman of C107, did you see the 19 representatives of the Electric Light & Power Group 20 as the nominated spokesmen for the utility industry 21 and to represent the utility industry concerns for 22 ANSI Cl 0 7 ? 23 MR. SMITH: Objection to the form 24 for leading. 25 Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) You can answer it. CLAYTON...REPORTING...COMPANY.,....LTD.............................................. niii Tn-fiRni WATER PCB-SD0000060400 188 X sir 2 A Yes . 3 MR. GRANOFF: Let's mark this 381, 4 please. 5 (Said instrument was marked for 6 identification as Exhibit No. 381, 2-22-90, JMF.) 7 Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) I'm going to show you 8 in a moment Exhibit 381 which is a composite 9 exhibit. The cover sheet is the first page of a - 10 of the minutes of the Transformer Subcommittee, I 11 believe, from February 23 , 1971 , but would you 12 please review this composite exhibit and all the 13 documents contained therein and see if you can 14 identify it, sir. 15 All right? 16 A. Yes, I have looked through this exhibit 17 and find it to be a mixed collection of documents, 18 some of them dated mid-1970 on to -- through 19 February 23, '71. These documents reflect 20 recommendations, status reports on the PCB issue 21 prior to the organization of ANSI Cl 0 7. 22 MR. SMITH: In their entirety 23 they're all prior? 24 THE WITNESS: They're all prior. 25 These are -- It appears to me that this is an CLAYTON REPORTING...COMPANY,....LTD ........................................... niii 777-6TM^ WATER PCB-SD0000060401 189 1 attempt to pull together all the information 2 available in order to support a recommendation for 3 the formation of such a committee. 4 MR. SMITH; In other words, 5 everything there does appear to relate to what 6 eventua1ly became the ANSI committee? 7 THE WITNESS; That is correct. 8 Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) I'd like to direct you 9 to what is Bates stamped 142249, a letter dated May 10 5, 1970, for signature by E. L. Raab, R-a-a-b, to a 11 Mr. looks 1ike E. H. or B. H. ReynoIds in London, 12 England, and I'll have to share this with you, Mr. 13 Papageorge; it's the only copy I have this morning. 14 I know that photocopy is not the best 15 quality, but do you know Mr. Reynolds? 16 A. I have heard of Mr. ReynoIds. I have 17 never met the man to my knowledge. 18 Q. And in what connection have you heard of 19 Mr . Reynolds? 20 A. Mr. Raab had mentioned him in his 21 reports to the committee, he mentioned contacting 22 Mr. Reynolds. . 23 Q. And 1et me just read for the record that 24 on the top of this letter there is. I'll read it 25 verbatim; Subject: CIGRE, C-I-G-R-E, Study CLAYTON...REPORT.ING...COMPANY.,....LTD.............................................. nui 777-fi^n? WATER PCB-SD0000060402 190 1 Committee No. 15, Working Group WG/02, "Askarels". 2 That's an accurate representation as to what's on 3 the top of this letter? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And the name CIGRE now seems to be 6 consistent with your recollection of a European 7 group that was involved with the evolving PCB issue? 8 A. That is correct. 9 Q . Circa 1970? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Attached -- Strike that. 12 The last paragraph of Mr. Raab's letter 13 to Mr. Reynolds reflects that activities of the what l 14 looks to me to be IEC Subcommittee 10B was attached 15 to the letter. Are you familiar with the letters 16 IEC? 17 A. No, I am not. v 18 Q. Would you be more familiar with the name 19 International Electrotechnical Commission? 20 A . No . 21 Q. Now starting with Bates stamp 142251 22 there is an eleven-page document and the title of it 23 is PCB - Uses in Askarel for Electrical Industry. 24 You would agree with that heading for that document? 25 A. Yes. CLAYTON...REPORTING...COMPANY.,...LTD .------------------------------------- (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000060403 191 1 Q. Okay. Are you familiar with an entity 2 or manufacturer known as Prodalec, P-r-o-d-a-l-e-c? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And who is Prodalec? 5 A. That's a French company that makes -- at 6 least a part of it makes chemicals. 7 Q. Are you aware whether Prodalec circa 8 1970 was manufacturing PCBs? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Did Monsanto do business with Prodalec 11 for purposes of PCBs? 12 A. We had -- X don't know that I would 13 necessarily call it business. We communicated and I 14 personally met with their representive in Europe. 15 Q. And who was their representative that 16 you met with? 17 A. I think his last name was Mr. Jay. 18 Q. Okay. As best you could, could you read 19 what is in handwriting three lines above the heading 20 of this eleven-page document? 21 A . I'll try. 22 Q. Yes, I know the photocopy is not the 23 best. 24 A. Lecture given by Mr. P. Jay of TME 25 Prodalec Company at a un -- at a university in -- CLAYTON...REPORTING... COMPANY ,....LTD. nu) WATER PCB-SD0000060404 192 1 Q * Sweden? 2 A. -- Sweden in 1970. 3 Q. I only suggest Sweden. Does it appear 4 to be Sweden? 5 A. I can see S-w-e-d. s-w-e-d would 6 indicate Sweden to me. 7 MR. SMITH: Among other things. 8 Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) You had met with Mr. 9 P. Jay, J-a-y? 10 A . Yes , I had. 11 Q. In what respects had you met with Mr. 12 Jay? 13 A. There was a group of Monsanto 14 representatives of which I was a member that went to 15 Europe in March of 1970 and part of our trip 16 included meeting with representatives of the 17 European PCB manufacturers. Mr. Jay attended that 18 meeting in Brussels representing the French PCB 19 manufacturers. 20 Q. Have you had a sufficient opportunity to 21 review this eleven-page report, PCB - Uses in 22 Askarel for Electrical Industry? Have you had an 23 opportunity - 24 A. -- I -25 Q. To the extent I'd 1ike to -- I'll give CLAYTON...REPORTING...COMPANY ,....LTD -----------------------------------(314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000060405 193 1 you an opportunity to answer that question. Have r 2 you ever seen that eleven-page report before? 3 A. I saw it many years ago and recently I 4 glanced at it. - 5 Q. Okay. Under what circumstances did you 6 first see that report? And as a matter of 7 reference, did you see it when you met with the 8 European PCB manufacturers in March of 1970? 9 A. I don't associate it with our meeting. 10 It seems to me I was aware of this document because 11 Mr. Benignus of Monsanto gave me a copy and this was - 12 this was after the European trip so it was in 1970 13 after March of 1970. That's as close as I can come. 14 Q. Try another time reference , was it after 15 March of 19 7 0 yet before the adoption of the Cl 0 7 16 standard in January 1974? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Was it closer to March of '70 or closer 19 to January of '74? 20 A. It was closer to March '70. 21 Q. Okay. There are a couple of references 22 in this report I'd just like to review with you, if 23 I could. I don't mean to take anything out of 24 context here so whatever opportunity you need to 25 read this document please do so, but there is a CLAYTON...REPORTING...COMPANY.,....LTD.. ('114) 777-6507 WATER PCB-SD0000060406 194 1 reference on Page 6 of this report, there is no 2 Bates stamp associated with it but just Page 6 of 3 this report, that reads as follows and please follow 4 it with me: Without having exactly the same 5 characteristics as a new material, the regenerated 6 askarel for transformers offers the same guarantees 7 for use. 8 That's a fair and accurate reading of 9 that paragraph? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Can you tell me, do you have an 12 understanding or back when you first saw this report 13 what did you understand the term regenerated askarel 14 to mean? 15 A. There are occasions in the -- either the 16 manufacture of a transformer unit or in the 17 servicing of a unit in which the askarel does not 18 meet the specifications required of it to make it 19 the proper fluid. It's lacking some 20 characteristic. If the contamination which caused 21 this off specification characteristic is slight, 22 there are procedures that can be taken to renovate 23 this oil and attempt to bring it back up to high 24 quality . This is -25 MR. SMITH: When you say oil, do CLAYTON...R-E43QR-T-I-NO...COMPANY ,--LTD.............................................. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000060407 195 1 you mean aakarel? 2 A. Aakarel. Transformer oil. Okay. It's 3 aakarel. Oil can be treated in some cases so that 4 it becomes acceptable again and this is a common 5 practice in the industry in an attempt to 6 economically keep the costs down, of course, and 7 also to -- when the PCB issue came up it's another 8 way to reduce the amount of disposal material. 9 So when they talk about a regenerated in 10 Europe askarel, they're talking about a retreated 11 aakarel that'a acceptable for reuse. 12 Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) Did Monsanto have a 13 separate phraseology for what the European called 14 the regenerated askarel? 15 A. Yes, we didn't use the word 16 regenerated. If we did use a word the most common 17 type would be recycled. 18 Q, How about the term reclamation or 19 reclaimed? 20 A. Rec1 aimed, that's even better . Yes , 21 reclaimed askarel. . 22 Q. And would the nature of the reclamation 23 of the askarel or regeneration depend upon the 24 source of contamination of that askarel? Is that 25 vague? CLAYTON..R E P OR TING...COMPANY,...LT D .-------------------------------------- (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000060408 196 1 A. Yes, it would. 2 Q. So ray question is not vague then? 3 MR. SMITH: I object to the form of 4 the question^ 5 A. Not as I understand it. 6 Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) Okay, fine. Thank 7 you. 8 All right. And let me be more specific, 9 askarel or certain supplies of askarel I think you 10 testified could become off specification which would 11 require a regeneration or reclamation, correct? 12 A. Sure. 13 Q. Was one of the potential sources of an 14 off specification askarel supply mineral oil 15 contamination? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. To your knowledge was the off 18 specification of askarel, the existence of that 19 known to the manufacturers such as General Electric 20 and Westinghouse? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And can you put a time frame as to how 23 long the existence of off specification of askarel 24 supplies had been known throughout the industry 25 beginning with Monsanto and down through -- and to DAYTON.. REPORTING.. COMPANY ,....LTD.............................................. nui WATER PCB-SD0000060409 197 1 the manufacturers? Let me just use that. 2 MR. DAVIDSON: Are you referring to 3 off specification askarel that becomes less than top 4 quality through use? 5 MR. GRANOFF: I wasn't specifying 6 because of use and I don't know if it's necessarily 7 just use which creates the off specification. 8 MR. DAVIDSON: Well, presumably new 9 askarel fluid is not off spec. And it would become 10 so either by use -- through usage and deterioration 11 or by contamination which would require it to be 12 reclaimed. I'm trying to understand exactly what 13 you're referring to by off spec. 14 MR. GRANOFF: Well, I'm just using - 15 I'm using Mr. Papageorge's term. 16 Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) As I understand, off 17 spec is there is a supply of askarel which simply is 18 not up to par; is that correct, sir? 19 A. That's right. 20 Q. All right. And again, let me try to 21 repeat the question and if you have a problem with 22 it, Mr. Papageorge, please let me know but can you 23 give me a time frame as to Monsanto's awareness and 24 your knowledge of the manufacturers' awareness that 25 off specification askarel was a fact? CLAYTON..REPORTING...COMPANY ,....LTD.............. WATER PCB-SD0000060410 198 1 MR. DAVIDSON: Well, excuse roe for 2 interjecting myself again. The fact that askarel 3 fluid would become contaminated or deteriorated in 4 use is probably something that's been known since 5 the first time it was ever used because it lasts a 6 long time and it didn't last forever in top notch 7 condition so it can be contaminated in use or it can 8 be contaminated by -- or it could be deteriorated by 9 arcing. There are lots of things that could cause 10 it to become off spec. 11 MR. GRANOFF: Okay. But I'm not 12 really going down that road. 13 MR. DAVIDSON: But you're implying 14 that there's some sort of supply of off spec that 15 was being produced by Monsanto. 16 MR. GRANOFF: Okay. Well, then I 17 hear your concerns and I'll try to -18 , MR. DAVIDSON: Well, when askarel 19 fluid blended to specifications of an equipment 20 manufacturer left Monsanto's plant it was to spec. 21 MR. GRANOFF: Okay. 22 MR. DAVIDSON: It was tested by us 23 and it was tested by them. If it didn't meet it, 24 they sent it back. 25 MR. GRANOFF: Okay. Let me then CLAYTON...REPORTING..COMPANY..,__LTD .________________________ (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000060411 199 1 try to reword the question * 2v MR. SMITH: They sent it back if it 3 was off spec? 4 MR. DAVIDSON; Yes. We tested it 5 and they tested it, and if they didn't like it it 6 came back. 7 Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) For what period of 8 time do you understand that the manufacturers knew 9 that a supply of askarel or supplies of askarel 10 could become off spec due to its use in an 11 electrical equipment unit? 12 A. It's my understanding that that's a 13 potential that was always considered from the first 14 day they used PCBs back in 1929. 15 Q. And what is your level of awareness as 16 to more specifically when the manufacturers became 17 knowledgeable to the fact that mixture of mineral 18 oil -- Strike that. Strike that. 19 What is your level of awareness as to 20 when the manufacturers were aware that a mixture of 21 mineral oil into PCBs or PCB supply would create an 22 off specification? 23 A. It's my understanding that this goes 24 back into the '30s. 25 Q. And what's the basis for your statement CLAYTON REPOR-T-I-&G- COMPANY ,..LTD-.............................................. WATER PCB-SD0000060412 200 1 that it goes back into the '30s? r*~ 2 A. It was common knowledge within 3 Monsanto's research department of the concern that 4 customers had for the fire-resistant capabilities of 5 the askarels and the loss of that fire resistance 6 should mineral oils be introduced into the system 7 primarily by accident as distinguished from someone 8 who didn't know better pouring minera1 oil into a 9 transformer. 10 As I understand it, the question of how 11 much mineral oil in a transformer would be required 12 to reduce its fire resistance was studied quite 13 extensively. I don't have the documents personally 14 but there are studies done by Underwriters 15 Laboratory regarding this issue, the ratio of 16 mineral oil to askarel and what's the critical 17 concentration level. 18 That's really all I can recall regarding 19 mineral oil and transformer askarel oil. It is not 20 a very light subject. It was an important subject 21 and constantly on the minds of those who were in 22 this business. 23 Q. In the business of manufacturing the 24 electrical equipment which had PCBs in it? v 25 A. As well as servicing the equipment and. CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY.,... LTD (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000060413 201 1 of courser using it because if the unit doesn't meet 2 the fire resistance properties it's just not 3 appropriate for that installation. 4 Q. Is there any particular committee, 5 whether it be an ASTM committee or any other / 6 committee, that addressed the issue of how much 7 mineral oil contamination was allowable with an 8 askarel designed unit? 9 A. I'm not aware of any specific 10 committee. I do know the manufacturers individually 11 were very concerned about it. That's the extent of 12 my understanding. 13 Q. Can you be more specific as to which 14 manufacturers voiced concerns over the years as to 15 this issue? 16 A. All of them. General Electric, 17 Westinghouse, McGraw-Edison, Moloney Electric, 18 Allis-Chalmers. 19 Q. RTE ? 20 A. On and on. 21 Q. RTE? 22 A. RTE, yes. 23 MR. SMITH: Kuhlman. 24 Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) Kuhlman, Kuhlman 25 Company, Kuhlman Power? CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY r LTD . (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000060414 202 1 MR. SMITH: Kuhlman Corporation. 2 A. I've heard of them but they're very 3 small. They were a factor but not a big one. 4 MR. SMITH: Speaking of factor, how 5 about Factory Mutual Research, are you familiar with 6 that name? 7 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes. Factory 8 Mutual. I personally don't know of any direct 9 involvement of Factory Mutual with transformers. 10 That doesn't mean it didn't occur. I don't know 11 about it. 12 Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) Excuse me. For a 13 matter of clarification, do you recall Kuhlman 14 Company or Kuhlman Corporation having a level of 15 awareness and concern as to the mixture of PCB -- of 16 mineral oil with PCBs? 17 A.r I have personally never spoken to a 18 representative of the company. I can't speak to 19 that. I don't have any information. 20 Q. Okay. Let me draw your attention back 21 to the memo on PCBs from the -- one of the European 22 representatives and ask you to read the last 23 sentence on Page 6, last two lines and it's one 24 sentence. 25 A. You wish me to read it out loud? (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000060415 203 1 Q. Yes, please. 2 A. The only case for which regeneration is 3 impossible is that when an askarel is accidentally 4 contaminated by mineral oil. . 5 Q. Assuming that this statement is correct, 6 why is it impossible to reclaim or regenerate 7 askarel which has been contaminated by mineral oil? 8 MR. SMITH! Objection for lack of 9 foundation. ---- ,, 10 A. Mineral oil and askarels co-dissolve so 11 intimately that there is no practical way to 12 separate the two. Distillation has been tried and 13 it doesn't do it. They're -- There is no known way 14 to separate them. 15 (Deposition stood in temporary recess.) 16 (The requested portion of the record was 17 read by the Reporter.) 18 Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) The -- Strike that. 19 Your statement that there is no known 20 way to separate mineral oil and askarel or mineral 21 oil and PCB should I say? PCB? 22 A. Both are correct. 23 Q. Okay. 24 A. Either mineral oil and PCB or mineral 25 oil and askarel. CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. ( 3 x 4 ) 7 2 7-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000060416 204 1 Q. Is that based upon your training as a 2 chemical engineer? 3 A. That is correct. 4 Q. And as well is it based upon.your 5 knowledge and experience with Monsanto Company from 6 approximately 1951 until you retired in 1986? 7 A. Yes, that's also correct. 8 Q. Okay. In your meeting with Mr. Jay or 9 the other representatives of the European PCB 10 manufacturers in I believe you said March of 1970, 11 was the issue of disposal discussed? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And to what extent? 14 A. The disposal into sewer systems and 15 rivers and streams was discussed as being 16 objectionable. The disposal into dump sites or 17 landfills that were near riverbanks and all were 18 mentioned I recall. I recall specifically the Rhine 19 being mentioned. 20 Q. Excuse me. Was it objectionable 21 activity voiced by the European manufacturers or by 22 you and the American representatives? 23 A. Well, the Monsanto representatives 24 pointed out that this was objectionable because of 25 the easy entry into the environment. There were d^AXTQjJ--REPORTING..COMPANY ,.....LTD .------------------------------------ (314 ) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000060417 205 1 some representatives of the European PCB 2 manufacturers that readily concurred with that. 3 There were, of course, some that at that point in 4 time were quite skeptical as to whether really this 5 was a problem or not. So all of us had something to 6 say about it, some agreeing, some not. 7 Q. Did you personally have this one meeting 8 in March of 1970 with the European manufacturers or 9 were there follow-up meetings? 10 A. There were follow-up meetings of the 11 manufacturers in Europe I personally could not 12 attend, but they did continue meeting on occasion. 13 Some frequency, I don't recall how often but they 14 did meet. 15 Q. The March 1970 meeting, do you recall 16 the other American attendees? 17 A. There were no other, that's why I used 18 the word Monsanto representatives. 19 Q. Okay. 20 A. Since Monsanto was the only commercial 21 producers of PCBs at that time. 22 Q. Do you recollect in your conversations 23 with Mr. Raab whether he ever attended meetings with 24 the European manufacturers of PCBs? 25 A. I don't recal1 Mr. Raab meeting with the CLAYTON...REPORTING...COMPANY,...LTD-.------------------------------------- (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000060418 206 i 1 manufacturers of PCB It seems that, yea, he did 2 meet with manufacturers of transformers that used 3 PCBs, and it seems that it was really under the 4 CIGRE auspices or sponsorship that these meetings 5 took place. 6 Q. Do you know what CIGRE -- I guess we 7 called that an acronym, but do you know what CIGRE 8 stands for? 9 A. I don't reca11. I used to know. 10 Q. Okay. I ask you to look at on Page 8 of 11 this report the sentence which begins with in 12 conclusion all the way through in the environment 13 and if you would read that verbatim, please. 14 A. In conclusion, for the case of askarels 15 in transformers, the end users are pushed for 16 technical and economical reasons to avoid any form 17 of disposal of this material in the environment. 18 .Q. All right. What is your understanding 19 as to the term end users as it is used in this 20 report ? 21 A. That's the owner of the transformer who 22 uses it on his site, his facilities. 23 Q. As a matter of definition, would it 24 include a European utility? 25 A. Yes. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000060419 207 1 Q. Okay. What would be the technical and 2 economical reasons to avoid any form of disposal of 3 askarels into the environment based upon this report 4 and your previous familiarity with this report? 5 A. By technical they are referring really 6 to the environmental impact of PCBs on the 7 environment. By economic, they are referring to the 8 potential for the cost of c1eanup or the cost of 9 penalties and fines that might be imposed and 10 they're also referring to the potential for a ban 11 against the use of that material which could result 12 in serious economic impact. 13 Q. Was it your impression that the United 14 States government was ahead of the European 15 governments or the consortium of European 16 governments in connection with protecting the 17 environment on the area of PCBs? 18 A. I would suggest that the United States 19 government was ahead of some of the European but 20 behind some European. Specifically, the 21 Scandinavian countries, they took action regarding 22 limiting use of PCBs quickly and in terms of 23 relative timing, Sweden and Denmark in particular, 24 whereas Germany and Italy and Spain were reluctant 25 to take action. England and France were a little CLAYTON...RE PO RTING..COMPANY,....LTO-.------------------------------------( ?i 4 ) WATER PCB-SD0000060420 208 1 bit behind the United States. 2 Q. And was it your impression that American 3 industry was ahead of European industry in 4 connection with the evolving PCB environmental 5 issue? 6 A. That is my impression, yes. 7 MR. GRANOFF; Okay. Just off the 8 record. 9 (Discussion was held off the record.) 10 Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) Directing your 11 attention back to Exhibit 368 which was marked 12 yesterday, I believe it was a letter authored by Mr. 13 Olson of Monsanto advising the electrical equipment 14 manufacturers of the evolving PCB issue; is that 15 correct? 16 A. That is correct. 17 Q. And as part of this letter, and I think 18 if you turn to the last sentence or two of that 19 letter. Page 2 of that letter, Monsanto was not 20 going to be directly contacting the purchasers of 21 the electrical equipment but recommended that the 22 equipment manufacturers contact the users? 23 A. That is correct. 24 Q. Okay. Were you made aware whether any 25 of the electrical equipment manufacturers took Mr. GJ^A-YTQN...REPORTING--COMPANY.,....LTD.------------------------------------ (314)727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000060421 209 1 Olson'a suggestion and contacted the end users as to 2 this evolving PCB issue? 3 A. It's my understanding that all of them 4 contacted their customers with this information. 5 Q. When you say all of them, what do you 6 mean by that term? 7 A. All of Monsanto*s customers who 8 purchased PCB-type transformer fluids for use in 9 transformers that they manufactured. 10 Q. Okay. Let me try some manufacturers' 11 names. General Electric, would that be one of the 12 manufacturers ? 13 * A. Yes . 14 Q- Westinghouse? 15 A. Yes . 16 Q. Al1is-Chalraers? 17 A. Yes . 18 Q. McGraw-Edison? 19 A . Yes . 20 Q. RTE? 21 A. Yes . 22 Q Central Moloney? 23 A . Yes . 24 Q. Wagner Electric? 25 A. Yes . CLAYTON...RE--PO1 R4 T^ ING COMPA NY, LTD............................................. WATER PCB-SD0000060422 210 1 Q. Coopers Industries? 2 A. I don't recall Coopers Industries. 3 Q. Okay. Pennsylvania Transformer? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Okay. Have you ever seen any of the 6 letters from the electrical equipment manufacturers 7 to the end users? 8 A. I have seen two that I reca11. 9 Q. And which letters do you recall seeing? 10 A. A General Electric letter and a 11 Westinghouse letter, copies of. 12 Q. Do you recall the dates or approximate 13 dates of the General Electric or Westinghouse letter 14 to the end user? ( 15 A. Middle of 1970. 16 Q. 1970? 17 A . 1970, yes. 18 Q. Okay, thank you. Did either General 19 Electric or Westinghouse review the drafts of these 20 letters before they were issued with you? 21 A. They both. One reviewed it -22 Westinghouse reviewed it over the telephone with me, 23 read it to me. General Electric through Mr. Raab 24 showed me a rough draft double-spaced version for my 25 comments, review. CLAYTON...REPORTING...COMPANY ,....LTD .------------------------------------( ^1 4 ) 777-fiSn'* WATER PCB-SD0000060423 211 1 Q. In connection with Westinghouse, do you 2 recall your ~~ the contact in regards to this letter 3 to the end users? 4 A. Yes, it was a -- gosh -- John starts 5 with an R. 6 Q. Let me see if I can help you. 7 A. John starts with an R. I can't recall 8 it at the moment. He was the person designated in 9 Westinghouse to be my contact regarding PCB 10 matters . Risington, R-i-s-i-n-g-t-o-n, something 11 like that. 12 Q. Was he located in Pittsburgh at that 13 time or at one of the plants, Sharon or South 14 Boston? 15 A. I believe it was one of the plants. I'm 16 tempted to say Sharon. 17 Q. ' Okay. 18 A. He was active in this for less than a 19 year and he retired. He was the person that called 20 me . 21 Q. The letters, these letters that you 22 mentioned now that went out, you understand went out 23 from G.E. and Westinghouse, Allis-Chalmers, 24 McGraw-Edison, all the manufacturers that I've 25 mentioned in my question a couple minutes ago, did CLAYTON...REPORTING...COMPANY.,....LTD.------------------------------------ (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000060424 212 1 you understand that these letters were being sent to 2 the equipment manufacturers* electric utility 3 customersT 4 A. Yes . 5 MR. GRANOPP: Two pages, please 6 mark it. 7 (Said instrument was marked for 8 identification as Exhibit No. 3 8 2 , 2-22-90 , JMF. ) 9 Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) I'm going to ask you 10 to identify Exhibit 382, which for everybody is a 11 two-page letter undated on General Electric 12 letterhead with Bates stamp -- I have one Bates 13 stamp on the front page, 142264. 14 Could you identify this exhibit, please. 15 sir? 16 A. This is a letter entitled open letter to 17 electric utility customers. The letterhead is 18 General Electric Company out of Roanoke, Virginia. 19 There is no author, signature, or designation on 20 it. There is no date. It addresses the concern for 21 environmental pollution by askarel fluids. 22 Q. Does the letter address any notification 2% that General Electric received from Monsanto as to 24 this evolving PCB issue? 25 A. In the third paragraph, the second ^I.A^0N -REPORTING...COMPANY ,....LTD ............................................ (^14) 7?7-6*;m WATER PCB-SD0000060425 213 1 sentence. 2 Q. What is the reference? And you can read 3 it \verbatim, V\ 4 A. X will read it verbatim. General 5 Electric is in receipt of a letter from Monsanto 6 expressing its concern and a copy is attached for 7 your information. 8 Q. Okay. Exhibit 382, as it appears, does 9 this look like the proposed G.E. draft reviewed with 10 you by Mr. Raab? 11 A . It does. 12 Q. Does Exhibit 382 as it appears to you 13 today look like the letter that was sent by General 14 Electric to its electric utility customers circa 15 mid-1970? 16 A. I don't know that I'm in a position to 17 comment directly on that. The letter I saw was 18 designed to be suitable for utilities as well as 19 industrial plants like automobile plants or hotels, 20 motels, commercial buildings. The intent was to 21 then modify it slightly to appeal to a particular 22 type customer, but the main body of the letter in 23 essence was identical for all of them. 24 Q. Okay. Do you recollect whether 25 Westinghouse and the other manufacturers that we OLA TON...REPORTING...COMPANY ,....LTD.............................................. ( 4 ) 777-fi'im WATER PCB-SD0000060426 214 1 have identified in our last series of questions also 2 sent letters to electric utility customers advising 3 of the evolving PCB issue and the notification that 4 each respective manufacturer received from Monsanto? 5 A. That is my understanding. 6 Q. Okay. Let me just go through a couple 7 of names with you, if I can, as to manufacturers and 8 see if you can identify these names. A Mr. J. L. 9 Fisher with Kuhlman Electric Company? 10 A. I don't recall Mr. Fisher. 11 Q. Let me before I even take any more 12 names, are you aware of a group which was meeting 13 contemporaneous with the C107 Committee called the 14 NEMA Ad Hoc Committee on Transformer Oil Crisis, 15 Transformer Section? 16 A. That was the precursor group before the 17 ANSI group was formed? That's my understanding. 18 Q. Okay. 19 A. That -- That group was a NEMA committee 20 appointed to advise NEMA how to approach this 21 particular issue. 22 Q. Which particular issue, the PCB issue? 23 A. The PCB issue, yes. 24 Q. When Cl 0 7 was formed is it your 25 understanding that the Ad Hoc Committee on the CLAYTON (3 3/4 ) 727-6503 LTD WATER PCB-SD0000060427 215 1 Transformer Oil Crisis continued to meet to address 2 their own separate issues? 3 A. I was not aware that they were -- they 4 continued to be active. Was this PCB/askarel issue 5 committee? 6 Q. Well, I'll clarify it and if you need to 7 withdraw your answer or modify your answer I didn't 8 mean to take a shot in the dark here. 9 ~ MR. GRANOFF; But let's mark this , 10 please. 11 (Said instrument was marked for 12 identification as Exhibit No. 383, 2-22-90, JMF.) 13 Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) Let me show you what 14 has been marked as Exhibit 383. This is three pages 15 Bates stamp 142271. I'm missing 142272 but there is 16 142273 and 142274, but I think as long as we have 17 the first page then I think you'll be able to answer 18 my questions on it. And it is minutes of the Ad Hoc 19 Committee on Transformer Oil Crisis, Transformer 20 Section, October 1974. 21 Could you take a look at these 22 documents, please, and see if you can identify. 23 A. This exhibit is a copy of minutes of a 24 meeting of the Ad Hoc Committee on Transformer Oil 25 Crisis, Transformer Section, dated October -- the " """" t.td . WATER PCB-SD0000060428 216 \ 1 meeting was October 2, 1974. 2 Q. Now, now that I've given you a document 3 which reflects this committee do you want to modify 4 or withdraw your previous answer as to your 5 familiarity with that group? 6 A. Yes, I do. I thought you were referring 7 to the NEMA committee that was addressing the PCB 8 issue. This particular committee is addressing the 9 mineral oil shortages that occurred in the '70s. 10 Q. Which was the NEMA committee addressing 11 the PCB issue? 12 A. I don't have the list in front of me, 13 but it was a group of about six representatives of 14 NEMA that -- that document, that exhibit we had 15 before with all the preparatory statements and 16 justification for the formation of a standard 17 setting committee, that is the group that 18 deliberated using this information. 19 Q. Would that be the NEMA Committee on Use 20 and Disposal of Askarel? 21 A. Yes. I believe that is the title they 22 used, yes. 23 Q. So the NEMA Committee on the Use and 24 Disposal of Askarel is not per se the C107 25 Committee? jgjmCTi^REP'ORTXirs...company.,....ltd .....................................= / o i /! \ ~7n~r-cvzr\i WATER PCB-SD0000060429 217 X A. That is correct. 2 Q. Okay. Thank you. I didn't mean to 3 confuse you on it. 4 You knew Mr. H. R. Rowe from 5 McGraw-Edison in 1970 or 1971, did you not? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And do you know what his position with 8 McGraw-Edison was? 9 A. X don't recall it any longer. 10 Q, And Mr. Rowe was a member of the NEMA 11 Committee on Use and Disposal of Askarel which was 12 the forerunner of the ANSI C107 Committee? 13 A. That is correct. 14 Q. You knew Mr. Reinhardt, W. C. Reinhardt? 15 A . I did. 16 Q. In 1970? 17 A. Yes . 18 Q. And Mr. Reinhardt was a member of the 19 NEMA Committee on Use and Disposal of Askarel which 20 was the forerunner of the ANSI Cl 0 7 Committee? 21 A . That is correct. 22 Q. Who was -- Strike that. 23 You knew Mr. D. E. Allen of 24 Allis-Chalmers, 1970? 25 A. Yes. GXJLYTjO N..REP O R T TNG...C O M P A N Y....L TP............................................. WATER PCB-SD0000060430 218 1 Q. And Mr. Allen served as a member of the 2 NEMA Committee on Use and Disposal of Askarel prior - 3 which was the forerunner of the ANSI Cl07 Committee? 7 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And what was Mr. Allen's position with 6 Al1is-Chalmers, do you know? 7 A. I don't reca11 it anymore. 8 Q. And do you recal1 Mr. Reinhardt's " 9 position with Moloney Electric? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. What was it? 12 A. I recall Mr. Reinhardt. 13 Q. I'm sorry? 14 A. I don't recall his position. 15 Q. Okay. I think there's a letter here 16 somewhere from Mr. Reinhardt. Do you recall Mr. 17 Reinhardt as manager of research and development at 18 Moloney Electric? And I reference Exhibit No. 369. 19 A. That letter that I composed reminds me 20 of his position at that time. 21 Q. So the answer is? 22 A. Manager of the research and development 23 for Mo1oney Electric Company. 24 Q. Mr. Reinhardt? 25 A. Correct. CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY? LTD. / s i 4 \ rn_i;sni WATER PCB-SD0000060431 219 1 Q . Thank you. 2 (Said instrument was marked for 3 identification as Exhibit No. 384 , 2-22-90 , JMF. > 0 4 Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) I'll ask you to 5 identify, if you can, what has been marked as 6 Exhibit 384. It's two pages Bates stamped 148199, 7 148200. Can you identify this exhibit, please, 8 sir? 9 A. The exhibit consists of two pages both 10 with Monsanto letterhead. The top page is dated 11 July 27, 1977, and it shows the name and address of 12 Mr. -- well, Mr. J. L. Cooper, Florida Power & Light 13 Company, 6001 Northwest 70th Avenue, Miami, Florida, 14 33166. 15 The second page is a copy of a letter 16 signed by Mr. James A. Alley who at that time was 17 industry specialist dielectrics for Monsanto 18 Company. The letter is addressed to dear customer, 19 no date. 20 Q. And the gist of the letter, sir? 21 A. The gist of the letter is that the 22 recipient of the letter is being informed that as of 23 August 31, 1977, the incinerator at Monsanto would 24 no longer be available to destroy waste, askarels 25 and PCBs, and it goes further to refer to the ANSI CLAYTON...REPORT TNG...COMPANY.,....LTD . .......... - # "1 ' ' " ^ * r " WATER PCB-SD0000060432 220 1 standard, Cl07 standard, and reminding the recipient 2 that there were two companies in the business of 3 incineration that they could contact. 4 Q. Have you ever seen this letter before by - 5 authored by Mr. Alley? 6 A. I had seen it, yes. 7 Q. Now in connection with the use of the 8 terminology in the letter PCB waste, is it your 9 understanding that by that term it was meant to 10 include -11 MR. SMITH: Objection to the 12 leading. 13 Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) -- any supply of 14 mineral oil which may be contaminated with PCBs? 15 A. It would include mineral oil with PCBs, 16 yes . 17 Q. Have you ever met J. L. Cooper from 18 Florida Power & Light? 19 A. I don't recall meeting him, no. 20 Q. Do you recollect the name James, Jimmy, 21 or J. L. Cooper from Florida Power & Light? 22 A. Very vaguely, but not associated with 23 anything specific. 24 Q. Let me try then to help you out. I 25 don't know if I'll be able to or not, but I'd like CLAYT O N..r E po R TING C O M P AN Y.,....L TD.......................... ....... WATER PCB-SD0000060433 221 1 you to assume that J. L. Cooper, James Cooper, Jimmy 2 Cooper, same person, served as supervisor of the 3 Miami Florida Power & Light Equipment Repair Center 4 in the period of approximately 1975 to 1980. Does 5 that help you as far as identifying Mr. Cooper? 6 MR. SMITH.* Objection to the form 7 of the question. It mischaracterizes the record. 8 MS. BERKOWITZ: Join in that 9 objection. 10 Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) Go ahead. 11 A. I just -- I just don't recal1. 12 Q. While you may not recall Cooper 13 specifically, do you recall any conversations with 14 Cooper over the phone? 15 A. The only recollection I have is the 16 name, but I can't associate it with either a 17 telephone call or a personal contact or meeting him 18 at a meeting. I cannot relate him to anything 19 specific. 20 Q. All right. Nevertheless, do you 21 associate the name J. L. Cooper with Florida Power & 22 Light? 23 A. Yeah. Yeah. 24 (Said instrument was marked for 25 identification as Exhibit No. 385, 2-22-90, JMF.) CLAYTON...REPORTING... COMPANY.,. LTD, "J r r c\ WATER PCB-SD0000060434 222 1 Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) I'll ask you to 2 identify in a moment what's been marked as Exhibit 3 385, which is two pages Bates stamp 148511, 148512, 4 and if you could identify, if you can, sir. 5 A. This exhibit consists of two pages 6 entitled Florida Power & Light Materials Returned to 7 Monsanto for Incineration and it consists of four 8 columns showing dates, location, material name, and 9 pounds. It's showing different types of 10 PCB-containing material, the source of that 11 material, the date arrived, and the amount of 12 material. 13 Q. Is it your understanding that Exhibit 14 385 reflects a compilation of the PCB waste material 15 sent exclusively from Florida Power & Light to 16 Monsanto for incineration from 1971 through March of 17 1976? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Now, as you indicated there is the 20 heading of material name or the column under 21 material name and there are different 22 identifications under material name and let's go 23 through them specifically. The term Aroc1 or, what 24 is your understanding as to what was meant by the 25 term Aroclor? CLAYTON...REPORTING... COMPANY.f....LTD....................................... ........ WATER PCB-SD0000060435 223 1 MR. SMITH: Objection to the form 2 of the question. You haven't established his 3 foundation for interpreting this particular 4 document. If you're asking him to tell what Aroclor 5 is, you did that already. 6 MR. GRANOFF: Okay. I'll try to 7 help everybody out then. 8 Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) Do you know who 9 compiled the document which is marked as Exhibit 10 385? 11 A. I don't know the individual 12 specifically. 13 Q. Well, do you know who that individual 14 represents or what company he or she worked for? 15 A. It's someone in Monsanto's legal 16 department -17 Q. All right. Do you know - 18 A. -- compiled this. 19 Q. Sorry. Do you know what documents were 20 relied upon in devising this compilation? 21 A. The plant receiving this material kept a 22 log in which entries were made as shipments were 23 received from many sources and on that log they 24 would include these four items listed on this 25 document. CLAYTON..REPORTING COMPANY, LTD_._ *^ Ji \ r- e n "> WATER PCB-SD0000060436 224 1 Q To your knowledge was the term Aroc1or 2 used by the shipper of the waste or the receiver of 3 the waste? 4 A. The material name was taken off of the 5 bill of lad ing prepared by the shipper. 6 Q Thank you. In connection with the 7 different i dentifications of material name and the 8 different o nes that appear on this list are Aroclor, 9 PCB askarel , askarel, PCBs -10 MR. SMITH: Therminol. 11 MR. GRANOFP: I'm getting there. 12 Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) -- and Therminol, 13 first of al I do you know what Therminol is? 14 A. Yes, I do. 15 Q What is it, sir? 16 A . Therminol is Monsanto's trade name for a 17 PCB liquid used in heat transfer systems. 18 Q. And in particular, would you know what 19 heat transf er systems it was used in? 20 A. Oh, there are all kinds. 21 MR. DAVIDSON: At Florida Power & 22 Light? 23 Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) Well, just generally 24 and then I' II -25 A. -- They go from breaking ovens to rubber CCA WATER PCB-SD0000060437 225 1 vulcanizing equipment to all kinds of industrial 2 equipment. 3 Q. Had you heard in the years that you were 4 chairman of Cl07 that equipment repair centers had 5 facilities with heat transfer units which were used 6 to dry coils and cores of transformer units? 7 A. Yes, 8 Q. In connection with that type of 9 facility, would Therminol be used in the heat -- as 10 part of the heat transfer unit? 11 A. It could be, yes. 12 Q. By the use of the different terms 13 Aroclor, PCB askarel, askarel, PCBs, or Therminol, 14 was there any way -- Strike that -- was there any 15 distinction there that showed that the material was 16 one hundred percent PCB or a mineral oil 17 contaminated with PCB? 18 MR. SMITH: Objection for lack of 19 compentency to explain what the shipper apparently 20 wrote. 21 MS. BERKOWITZs Could you repeat 22 the question, please? 23 (The requested portion of the record was 24 read by the Reporter.) 25 A. There is no way to make that i 'i i a \ n n n c c n o WATER PCB-SD0000060438 226 1 distinction. 2 Q. (BY MR. GRANOFP) Do you know the - 3 Strike that. 4 Was there a specific Monsanto employee 5 who was the contact person for utilities in the 6 period of 1971 to 1976 in connection with the 7 receipt of waste PCBs for incineration? 8 A. There was no one person. 9 Q. It was a department or a division? 10 A. There was -- There were several people 11 at the plant that could be contacted depending on 12 the time of day and the shift and the like. In the 13 home office of St. Louis there were people who 14 represented the shipping distribution function, the 15 people who could help arrange for truck movements 16 and the like and could send labels and instruct the 17 person asking for the information just how to go 18 about this. 19 So I would suggest that there -- at 20 least six people could have been involved at any one 21 day, and there was a turnover in personnel so there 22 were many people potentially in a period covered 23 here of five years or so. 24 Q. Fair enough. Thank you. Do you 25 recollect when, Monsanto first made, and I may have - CLAYTON REPORTING^COMP^ ' WATER PCB-SD0000060439 227 1 you may have responded to this yesterday, but do you 2 recall when Monsanto first made its incinerator 3 available for waste PCBs? 4 A. In middle to latter part of 1970 it was 5 announced to our customers that we were constructing 6 and planned to operate an incinerator and if they 7 had any waste they could ship it to Monsanto and we 8 would hold it in inventory until the unit was placed 9 in service. 10 So I would suggest that about September 11 or so of 1970 that was known to customers. 12 Q. And by customers do you mean utilities? 13 A. If that utility was on a list of our 14 customers that we had informed previously about the 15 PCB issue. 16 Q. And the record -- compilation rather of 17 Exhibit 385 indicates that the first materials 18 returned for incineration by Florida Power & Light 19 to Monsanto was October 5, 1971? 20 MR. SMITH: Object to the form of 21 the question which presumes that what is listed 22 first on the piece of paper existed first in time 23 which is subject to somebody else's compilation of 24 this list which was not done by this witness, so I 25 object for lack of that foundation. / n i a \ n n c r. n o WATER PCB-SD0000060440 228 *, 1 MS. BERKOWITZ; I join in that 2 objection. 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) Okay. 5 (Said instrument was marked for 6 identification as Exhibit No. 3 8 6, 2-22-90 , JMF. ) 7 Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) I'm going to show you 8 what has been marked as Exhibit 386. This is a 9 letter -- Strike that -- this is an interoffice 10 memorandum or correspondence from Florida Power & i 11 Light from a gentleman named D. or Dennis Chow dated 12 February 26, 1982, and has been previously marked I 13 believe at Mr. Chow's deposition as Exhibit No. 21. 14 I'll show it to you and ask you if you've ever seen 15 that letter before. 16 MR. SMITH: That file memo you 17 mean? 18 Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) Yes, Exhibit 386. 19 A. I don't recall ever seeing this letter, 20 memorandum. 21 Q. Fair enough. Let me just run some of 22 the names by you from Florida Power & Light and see 23 if you have had any contact with these gent1emen. A 24 James Ki11ingsworth? 2 5 A. No . --- WATER PCB-SD0000060441 229 1 Q. Patrick Lavelle? 2 A . No . 3 Q. Dennis Chow? 4 A No ' 5 Q. J. W. Molyneaux? 6 A . No . 7 Q. Aimee or Aimee Stein? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Bill or William Thue? 10 A. I don't recal1 him. We talked about him 11 yesterday, but -12 Q. You recall his name as a member of the 13 C107 Committee yesterday? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. William Thue? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Okay. Now, there is a reference in Mr. 18 Chow's letter, I'm not going to ask you to agree 19 with it or disagree with it, but here's the 20 statement: Around 1975, FPL became aware that 21 oil-filled transformers may be contaminated with 22 PCBs through testimony by General Electric and 23 Westinghouse to the EPA. If you want to read along 24 that with me. 25 My question is do you recollect that ` "" " " WATER PCB-SD0000060442 230 1 representatives of G.E. or Westinghouse gave or 2 offered such testimony to the EPA in 1975 that 3 oil-filled transformers may be contaminated with 4 PCBs ? 5 A. Yes, there was such testimony. 6 Q. Do you recall the circumstances to the 7 extent was this a hearing or rule making in 8 Washington D.C.? 9 A. Well, there was a rule making activity 10 under way within EPA at the time. Also, there were 11 hearings conducted by a committee. 12 Q. A congressional committee? \ 13 A. An EPA committee. 14 Q . Excuse me. 15 A. Headed my Dr. Martha Sager relating to 16 toxic pollutants. General Electric participated in 17 both of these. I recall a document, both General 18 Electric and Westinghouse, but at the moment I don't 19 recall whether that document was used at the hearing 20 or was submitted in response to a rule making. 21 Q. How did you become aware that General 22 Electric and Westinghouse presented at some sort of 23 EPA meeting or hearing information that oil-filled 24 transformers may be contaminated with PCBs? And I'm 25 talking circa 1975. /i \ renr> WATER PCB-SD0000060443 2 31 1 A * Oh, I got a copy of their statement. 2 Q. In other words, you received a copy of 3 their written statement that was to be submitted to 4 the EPA group? 5 A, Yes . 6 MS. ROMAGEt I'm sorry, is this 7 Westinghouse? 8 THE WITNESS: Both. 9 MS. RUMAGE: Both. 10 Q. (BY MR. GRANOFF) Did any other 11 manufacturers make presentations to the EPA circa 12 1975 in connection with oil-filled transformers that 13 may be contaminated with PCBs? 14 A. Not that I recall, no. 15 Q. Do you recall written submissions by any 16 of the other transformer manufacturers which joined 17 in the statements by General Electric and 18 Westinghouse that -- circa 1975 that oil-filled 19 transformers may be contaminated with PCBs? 20 A. I do not recall any. 21 Q. Do you recall the identity of the 22 spokesmen for either General Electric or 23 Westinghouse making the presentation to the EPA 24 circa 1975 that oil-filled transformers may be 25 contaminated with PCBs? CLAYTON..REPORTING...COMPANY......LTD .------------------------------------ / oin nT-cnm WATER PCB-SD0000060444 232 1 A. Seems to me the spokesman for General 2 Electric was Stewart Riche1. I believe that's 3 R-i-c-h-e-1. 4 Q. Is he an attorney? 5 A. An attorney. Spokesman for 6 Westinghouse, I can't recall who that was. 7 Q. You did not attend these particular 8 meetings or hearings, did you? 9 A. Yeah, I was present. 10 Q. I'm sorry. Okay. Never make 11 assumptions. Sorry. 12 A. I do not recall the Westinghouse 13 spokesman. 14 Q. Was Mr. Richel's testimony or statements 15 made under oath? 16 A. I don't believe so, no. 17 Q. And do you recollect whether the 18 Westinghouse spokesman was under oath? 19 A. No. None of us were under oath. 20 Q. Did you make a presentation to this EPA - 21 at this EPA hearing or rule making in 1975? 22 A. Yes, I participated in both. 23 Q. In both what? 24 A. I sent my comments to the EPA regarding 25 rule making and I spoke before the committee headed / -5 i \ nn n ^ c no WATER PCB-SD0000060445 233 1 by Dr. Sager. 2 Q. Did Mr. Richel review hie comments with 3 you before he actually gave his presentation to the 4 EPA? 5 A. Well, he let me see a copy of his 6 comments. I did not get the opportunity to comment 7 and offer suggestions for any change. 8 Q. And do you recal1 as part of Mr. 9 Richel's comments that you reviewed that the issue 10 of PCB contamination of mineral oil transformers was 11 addressed? 12 A. Yes, it was in there. 13 Q. Did Mr. Richel or the Westinghouse 14 representative indicate in their presentations how 15 long this had been an issue with each respective 16 manufacturer? 17 A. I don't believe that was covered, no. 18 Q. So in what aspect was the issue of PCB 19 contamination of mineral oil transformers addressed 20 by the respective presentations? 21 A. Of course I don't remember the exact 22 words. 23 Q. Sure. 24 A. But I do remember the intend was to 25 familiarize those at the hearing and those setting CLAYTON...REP O R T TNG... COMPAlTSr, LfTBci: i 'y * a \ /? e* n WATER PCB-SD0000060446 234 1 the rule making in EPA with a better understanding 2 of where PCBs might be found and how potential 3 mishandling, spills, and the like could end up in 4 waterways and thereby contribute to the presence of 5 PCBs in the environment. The intend was to 6 familiarize the audience with these potentials. 7 Q. Now, at the time Mr. Richel and the 8 Westinghouse representative made their 9 presentations, do you recollect whether the utility 10 industry was represented to the extent that there 11 was an observer on beha1f of the utility industry? 12 A. I -- I don't recal1 who was all there. 13 There was a roomful, big roomful of people. I don't 14 remember all, no. 15 Q. Do you remember whether Mr. Lengefeld or 16 Mr. Onishi or Mr. Cawley attended any of those 17 hearings? 18 A. I do not. 19 Q. Those hearings or -- Strike that. 20 The presentations by Mr. Richel and the 21 Westinghouse representative, do you recall whether 22 those are transcribed or recorded? Were they 23 transcribed or recorded? 24 A. No, they were not. Copies of the 25 presentation were given to the chairman and members CLAYTON.. REPORTTrNO--COMPANY >...LTD --- ------------------------------WATER PCB-SD0000060447 235 1 of the committee and the individual then read from 2 the document. 3 Q. Okay. Do you recall the name of the 4 chairman at that time? 5 A. Dr. Martha Sager. 6 Q. I'm sorry, excuse me. 7 MR. GRANOFF: I'm going to punt to 8 somebody else. 9 MR. SMITH: I'll be glad to begin 10 immediately. If anyone wants to take a break, I'll 11 be glad to take a short one. 12 (Deposition stood in temporary recess.) 13 CROSS-EXAMINATION 14 BY MR. SMITH: 15 Q. I'm Richard Smith. I represent Florida 16 Power & Light, Mr. Papageorge. 17 I want to address the testimony that you 18 recall and try to get as much precision as you can 19 recall about the circumstances of that testimony 20 which was just covered before we broke concerning 21 testimony by G.E. through Mr. Stewart Richel and 22 through some representative of Westinghouse. 23 Now, you mentioned that there was a rule 24 making activity in EPA and also hearings conducted 25 by Martha Sager for EPA. Do you recall whether this CTrAYTON.. REPORTING...COMPANY. LTD. / O1 4 \ non ccao WATER PCB-SD0000060448 236 1 testimony was given in both of those proceedings or 2 is it your testimony that it was one or the other? 3 A * It's that -- I can't recal1 specifically 4 at which of these two situations the testimony was 5 offered. I -- 1 believe, but I'm not real certain, 6 that they were offered at Mrs. -- Dr. Sager's 7 hearings because I recal1 the -- the reading of the 8 information as distinguished from a mailing into a 9 rule making and my office getting a copy. 10 So I lean primarily to the testimony 11 before Dr. Sager's committee but it at the same time 12 could have been the rule making. I'm not certain. 13 Q. Okay. The rule making that you 14 considered to be one of the possible places 15 concerned what type of a rule? 16 A. This was EPA's attempt to establish 17 acceptable limits of a given set of chemicals which 18 were referred to as toxic pollutants and this was 19 related to presence in water, natural waterways. 20 Q. Okay. Was this rule making conducted 21 pursuant to some statutory authority? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Do you recall which act or statute this 24 followed from? Was it, for example, TSCA or what is 25 customarily referred to as TSCA or was it a water Cli A Y TON REPORTI NO...COMPANY. LTD------------------------------------ni 7?7-C5nr WATER PCB-SD0000060449 237 1 quality act or anything else you recall? 2 A. TSCA was not yet enacted. It was 3 related to water qua1ity act and referred to the 4 toxic pollutants portion. 5 Q. Okay. To the best of your recollection 6 that rule making related to the Federal Water 7 Pollution Control Act? 8 A. Yes . 9 Q. Do you know if rules were promulgated as 10 a result of this rule making activity on or about 11 the time that it took place? 12 A. Not on or about that time. Several 13 years later I understand something was promulgated. 14 Q . Okay. Was Dr. Sager's -- were Dr. 15 Sager's hearings or hearing related to toxicity 16 studies? 17 A. Toxicity studies were -- The results of 18 toxicity studies were offered to support positions 19 taken by various parties in establishing the 20 standards, but I would not say that the hearings 21 were limited only to toxicity studies. 22 Q. Can you help me understand any 23 differentiation between the purpose of the rule 24 making activity and the Sager hearing? 25 A. I understand the Sager committee was CLAYTON...REPORTING...COMPANY ,....LTD ............................................. t 1\ in.ct WATER PCB-SD0000060450 238 1 advisory to EPA It had no authority at all in 2 establishing rules whereas the rule making process 3 is conducted by representatives of EPA who were 4 assigned the task of coming up with appropriate 5 rules, 6 Q. EPA had at all times during the 7 existence of ANSI C107 a representative on that 8 committee, did they not? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Did that representative on the ANSI 11 committee take part in either this rule making 12 activity or the Sager hearing? 13 A, He was not present at the hearings. 14 Whether he took part in the rule making it would 15 have had to have been sort of behind the scenes back 16 at EPA. I don't know what role he took there. 17 Q. Okay. And by he are you referring to 18 Mr. Hood? 19 A. Well, there was a designated 20 representative but at times alternates would be 21 sent, so whoever that alternate was I do not know 22 what he did back at the office in Washington. 23 Q . Okay. Now, Mr. Granoff asked you in his 24 questions as to the timing of this testimony whether 25 it was circa 1975. Can you give me to the best of CLAYTON-.REPORTING COMPANY.....LTD. ............................. nin T'Ji.ssm WATER PCB-SD0000060451 239 1 your recollection the time that this testimony was 2 given by reference to any method to place it in 3 time, calendar or another event happening or 4 something of that nature? 5 A. As best as I recall, the interest in 6 establishing a toxic pollutant standard that 7 included PCB, among other chemicals, was first 8 announced in the Federal Register -- my memory is 9 somewhat vague -- it seems to me about 1973 and 10 continued on and off through '74 and it may well 11 have spilled over into '75. 12 But it was a multi-month kind of 13 activity with notices in the Federal Register and 14 hearings and opportunity to submit information. I 15 wish I could come up with a more specific date but 16 it covered a span of many months. 17 Q. Could it have been in 1976 given the way 18 the matter continued from time to time? 19 A. Could it have been '76? 20 Q. Yes, sir. 21 A. Oh, certainly, and even beyond that. 2 2 Q. It could have been 1977? 23 A. Yes, because the promulgation didn't 24 occur until the '80s of the rules as I understood 25 them. So there were people in EPA continuously CLAYTON...REPORT.ING...COMPANY >....LTD.*........................................... t HI 7 ''1-CSfn WATER PCB-SD0000060452 240 1 involved with this effort with the changing of 2 personnel through the period. 3 Q. Given that situation, what today would 4 be your best recollection of the likely year in 5 which you heard this testimony given by Stewart 6 Richel? If you have to explain it could be one year 7 or the other, that's fine. 8 A. 1974 I would guess. 9 Q. Okay. 10 A. The best guess I can give now. 11 Q. Okay. But it could have been later or 12 earlier possibly? 13 A. It could have been '75. I know it 14 wasn't after '75. 15 Q. Okay. 16 A. I'm certain of that. 17 Q. Okay. 18 A, '73 was a little early. I don't think 19 Mr. Richel was assigned those responsibilities in '73 20 yet. 21 Q. Now, you said that you got a copy of 22 their statement, referring to the G.E. and 23 Westinghouse witnesses; is that correct? 24 A. Yes . 25 Q. You also said that you did not believe CLAYTON...REPORTING... COMPANY.,....LTD.;..........--............................. tilt) WATER PCB-SD0000060453 241 1 that their testimony or their reading perhaps of 2 their statement was transcribed; is that correct? 3 A. That's my recollection, yes. 4 Q. How do you account for the fact that you 5 received a copy, is that because you were a 6 participating speaker? 7 A. No, I don't know that the fact I was a . 8 speaker influenced that. General Electric 9 individuals had worked closely with me on all these 10 PCB matters and I suspect they felt a gesture of 11 courtesy to hand me a copy of the document before we 12 went into the hearing room. 13 Q. Okay. 14 MS. RDMAGE: I'm sorry, I didn't 15 mean to interrupt the questioning. I just wanted to 16 be clear so I can follow the rest. This hearing, is 17 this the EPA hearing? 18 MR. SMITH: It's not clear 19 according to the witness which of the two 20 occurrences this was in. It was in one of the two. 21 MS. RUMAGE: Okay, because I got a 22 little confused. Thank you. 23 THE WITNESS; Yes. 24 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) Would the date on that 25 copy of their statement that you've received be the CLAYTON... REPORTING...COMPANY.,....LTD............... ......................... ... "70-7 WATER PCB-SD0000060454 242 1 best evidence of the time of its presentation? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Did you keep a copy of their statements? 4 A. At the time, yes. 5 Q. Was it placed in a file or files that 6 you maintained having to do with your duties in 7 following the PCB issues? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Were those files turned over to your 10 successor when you ceased having those duties? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Can you give us today the name of a file 13 in which this particular document was originally 14 placed by you? 15 A. The file was very likely designated as 16 EPA - toxic pollutants. 17 Q. Now, to the best of your recollection 18 what was stated by the Westinghouse or G.E. witness 19 with respect to the circumstances by which mineral 20 oil transformers were or might be contaminated with 21 askarels? 22 A, I don't remember that specific at all. 23 Q. Okay. Do you remember that the issue 24 itself was spoken by them? 25 A. I recall that the potential for PCBs to CLAYTON... REPORTING....COMPANY.;.... LTD. n n-Ctini WATER PCB-SD0000060455 243 1 be present in mineral oil was there. 2 Q In the testimony or in your knowledge 3 generally ? 4 A. No, in the testimony, in the 5 presentation. 6 Q. Okay. 7 A. And I recall that because the speakers 8 were trying to, as I indicated earlier, trying to 9 educate let * s say the members of the committee on 10 the various sources of PCBs and this was one of them 11 that they were told about. 12 Q. Okay. Now, can you tell me whether what 13 they described was described as a potential for such 14 contamination or the existence of such contamination 15 being a possible point source for release to the 16 environment? 17 A. They described it as a potential for 18 happening. They did not try to quantify the 19 frequency or the amounts. 20 Q. Did they explain that in their 21 manufacturing plants they had discovered that in the 22 manufacturing process there had been some 23 contamination of askare1s -- I'm sorry, some 24 contamination of mineral oil with small quantities 25 of askarels? CLAYTON..REPORTING... COMPANY.,....LTD............................................... WATER PCB-SD0000060456 244 1 A. They did not. 2 Q. Mr. E. L. Raab at some time prior to 3 1974 did explain that situation to you with respect 4 to the Pittsfield plant, did he not? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And Mr. Harry Sheppard employed by 7 Westinghouse explained the same thing to you with 8 respect to Westinghouse facilities, did he not? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Did Mr. Reinhardt from Central Moloney 11 ever explain to you the same situation of 12 cross-contamination in manufacturing? 13 A. I don't recall any such discussion with 14 Mr. Reinhardt. 15 Q. In your tour of the Pittsfield plant at 16 one time, was the potential for cross-contamination 17 ever pointed out to you by reference to piping, 18 filters, valves, any mechanical apparatus? 19 A. The potential by the time I saw it in 20 1970 had been virtually removed, but I was shown how 21 they had special couplings for the piping from the 22 tank -- railroad tank car to the storage tanks as an 23 example of how they avoid emptying the wrong tank 24 car into the tanks. 25 Q. And did Mr. Raab explain to you at some tMrAYTQN R~E~PORTT C&MPA~ffY~; frTD~;--------------------------------- iiiin 7^7-fi=;n? WATER PCB-SD0000060457 245 1 tine how their Rome, Georgia facility had been 2 constructed so that operator error in utilizing 3 piping and so forth could not have resulted in 4 cross-contamination? 5 A. I don't know that it was Mr. Raab that 6 told me this. It could well have been, but 7 certainly somebody from G.E. and it could well have 8 been from the Rome, Georgia plant was the one who 9 told me this. 10 Q. Do you remember the names of any of your 11 contacts at the Rome, Georgia plant? 12 A. No, but if I hear it it will come to 13 mind quickly. I just at the moment cannot recall 14 it. 15 Q. I want to focus on the type of statement 16 that you were told by Mr. Raab and Mr. Sheppard, the 17 statement about cross-contamination in a 18 manufacturing facility, and what I would like to 19 find out is whether or not you reca11 anyone 20 advising you from any other manufacturer of 21 transformers of the same type of incident in their 22 facilities. I'll go through a list of -23 MR. GRANOFF: Let me just object to 24 the form to the extent that I think Mr. Papageorge 25 has testified in the past that this CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY. LTD. ------- / O 1 4 \ *70-7 WATER PCB-SD0000060458 246 1 cross-contamination or the potential for it occurred 2 in manufacturing facilities as well as service 3 centers. 4 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) Well, let me ask you the 5 names of some manufacturers and see if you recall 6 any people who told you the same type of 7 explanation. Anyone from Kuhlman? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Anyone from Al1 is-Ch a liners, either 10 William J. Hanna, A. S. Lindway, or E. A. Goodman? 11 A. I just do not recall a specific comment 12 other than the general understanding or something 13 that's as natural as breathing in that business, 14 they were very sensitive that in those plants where 15 both mineral oil and askarels are used they must be 16 extremely careful that they don't mix them. That's 17 the general message I got. 18 Q. And you understood that to be the 19 situation in pretty much all of the transformer 20 manufacturing facilities? 21 A. Yes. Yes. Uh-huh. 22 Q. Do you recall anyone from McGraw-Edison 23 such as John Lappe or James Douglas explaining that 24 to you? 25 A. Not in any detail as to what happened GTrAYT^iN--BETMEHfrTT-NG--GOMRAtfrY^--IrT D . WATER PCB-SD0000060459 247 1 when and under what conditions, no. 2 Q. Do you recall anyone from RTE 3 Corporation such as a Mr. Nelson or a Mr. Banal stein 4 explaining that to you? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Did any of these individua1s who may 7 have been employed at Central Moloney mention this 8 to you, a Mr. Knowles, K-n-o-w-l-e-s? 9 A. No . 10 Q. Mr. Neldon, N-e-1-d-o-n? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Mr. Patillo, P-a-1-i-1-1-o ? 13 A. No. 14 MS. RUMAGE: I didn't hear the 15 answer for RTE. 16 MR . SMITH: He recal1s no one. 17 MR. GRANOFF: He didn't recall 18 anyone. 19 MS. RDMAGEs Okay. 20 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) I believe you told me 21 that Mr. Reinhardt with respect to Mr. Reinhardt 22 of Central Moloney you don't recall him advising you 23 of that situation in particular? 24 A. Of any specific incident is what we're 25 talking about? C L AYTO-N-11FROR:TT-NO--COMPANY , LTD. ------~ / o i m im.. ctzrxi WATER PCB-SD0000060460 248 1 Q. Yes, sir. 2 A. No, no one did. 3 Q. And by no one you mean no one from 4 Central Moloney? 7 5 A . .Correct. 6 Q. Did anyone from a transformer 7 manufacturer advise you that they had had to take 8 remedial action because of an existing contaminated 9 stock of askarel in their facility which had been 10 contaminated with trace amounts of - 11 A . -- No. 12 Q. I'm sorry. Strike that. 13 Did anyone inform you on behalf of a 14 transformer manufacturer that they had a stock of 15 mineral oil which had been contaminated with trace 16 amounts of PCBs? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Did anyone who worked in a service shop, 19 and by that I mean a transformer service shop, 20 regardless of whose shop it was advise you of events 21 of cross-contamination in their service shop? 22 A . No . 23 Q. Is any knowledge that you have that 24 there was cross-contamination, in fact, in 25 transformer service shops or repair shops based on ClrAYTON ira^PtiiTTTNtj CT?M~PAN~Y 7 DTP . -- WATER PCB-SD0000060461 249 1 what persons unknown related to you from time to 2 time over the years? 3 A. I don't understand the question. 4 MR. GRANOFF: Objection as to form. 5 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) Okay. Let me go through 6 it piece by piece. 7 Is it your recollection that you believe 8 that there had been contamination of mineral oil by 9 askarels in service shops at any time? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And now I mean to differentiate the fact 12 of that from the potential for that. Would your 13 answer be the same that you believe there had been 14 events of cross-contamination in these service 15 shops? 16 A. I was not told specifically the date, 17 the item, the company but I was made aware. In 18 fact, this is reflected in Monsanto's trade 19 literature on askarels that contamination did occur 20 and the proper way for handling that contaminated 21 material. 22 MS. RUMAGE: You mean oil? 23 THE WITNESS: Oil or vice versa. 24 The askarel's contaminated. It can go either way. 25 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) In what trade literature XMrAYTON RR'ptJRTTHG COMIPTTNY-; LTITt / *7 1 A \ -t ^ n C C 7 WATER PCB-SD0000060462 250 1 is that covered, in Monsanto1s trade literature? 2 Can you give me a generic reference or a type of a 3 reference that you're remembering? 4 A. There was in Monsanto a publication that 5 referred to the handling of askarels in the 6 electrical equipment industry. As I recall this 7 publication was on occasion updated through the 8 years. I'm trying to recall the exact title. The 9 word askarel is in it. 10 Q. I'm showing you something which I will 11 cause to be marked which for the record appears to 12 be a Bulletin No. IC/FF-38. Is that such a 13 document, sir? 14 MR. GRANOFF: Well, objection as to 15 form. You mean that particular document, you're 16 asking whether that particular document has 17 information as to cross-contamination or is that the 18 form that the document took? 19 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) My question is is this a 20 piece of trade literature of the type to which 21 you're referring? 22 (Discussion was held off the record.) 23 A. This is a typical of the type of 24 bulletin I'm talking of. This, however, is I'm 25 going to say prepared about 1974 after the ANSI CLAYTON REPORTING.~COMRAN^Y . LTD. WATER PCB-SD0000060463 251 1 Committee. There are versions prior to that, but 2 this is the latest version. 3 MR. SMITHi Okay. Miss Reporter, 4 please mark for identification next in order this 5 document. 6 (Said instrument was marked for 7 identification as Exhibit No. 387 , 2-22-90 , JMF. > 8 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) I've caused to be marked 9 as Exhibit 387 a document bearing Bates numbers PSA 10 1137 through 1164 labeled Transformer Askarel 11 Inspection & Maintenance Guide, Monsanto. Is 12 Exhibit 387 a piece of trade literature prepared by 13 Monsanto concerning inspection and maintenance of 14 askarel transformers? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And by its internal references to the 17 ANSI guideline, can you determine from it that it 18 was produced after January 1974? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Okay. And was this the last version of 21 your trade 1iterature concerning the handling of 22 askarel transformers? 23 A. I cannot tell if this is the last 24 version. There might well be one more. 25 Q. Okay. I could not find a date on this CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY. LTD. WATER PCB-SD0000060464 252 1 one and I don't know whether you could do that or 2 not by knowing where it might, be found in the small 3 print. Do you know what the date is? 4 A. There is nothing here to indicate the 5 date I do not know. 6 Q. Please turn to the next to the last 7 page. The next to the last page is Bates No. 1163 8 and I note in the small print at the bottom of the 9 page there is a sentence which in essence says that 10 this document relates to askarel and to no other 11 component of the transformer; is that correct? 12 MR. CLAYMAN: Objection to the 13 form. Perhaps we should just read the statement. 14 MR. GRANOFF: Join. 15 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) Let me withdraw that 16 question and ask you does this document state on the 17 Page 1163 as Bates number, among other things, that 18 nothing herein shall be construed as applying to 19 other than askarel insulation. Data and maintenance 20 suggestions herein do not apply to the other 21 components of the transformer? 22 A. That is correct. 23 Q. By that reference did Monsanto intend to 24 convey to the reader that it was not addressing the 25 issue of mineral oil but only askarels? CLAYTON REPORTING COMRAtfY . LTD. WATER PCB-SD0000060465 253 l 1. 1 MR. GRANOFF: Objection, lack of 2 foundation 3 MS. BERKOWITZ: Join in the 4 objection. 5 MS . RDMAGE: Join. 6 MR. CLAYMAN; Join. 7 A. That would not make sense to the people 8 reading this document. 9 Q. < BY MR. SMITH) Okay. 10 A. The mineral oil would not be a component 11 in an askarel transformer. 12 Q, Correct. 13 A. The reference to components here refers 14 to the sealants used, the gaskets, the plastic 15 blocks, the units that separate the components 16 within, the cotter coil, and so on inside the 17 transformer. 18 Q. I have looked through this document and, 19 of course, invite you to do so to the extent 20 necessary to answer this question, if you can. Does 21 this document address the issue of mineral oil 22 contaminated with askarel in a transformer? 23 A. I'd have to read the document. I don't 24 recall. 25 Q. Well, before you do that 1et me tell you CLAYTON REPORT3rN~G--COMRA-NYt--IrTD . * ~ ^ WATER PCB-SD0000060466 254 1 where I'm coining from. I thought that you had 2 testified that there were pieces of trade literature 3 produced by Monsanto which spoke to the issue of 4 mineral oil contaminated by askarels; is that 5 correct ? 6 A. That is correct. 7 Q. Okay. Can you tell me if this Exhibit 8 387 is a version of that type of trade literature or 9 was the trade literature you've told me about given 10 some different subject, description, or title? 11 MR. GRANOFF: Objection; compound, 12 vague. 13 A. The subject, the title of this document - 14 this bulletin appears to be similar to the title of 15 previously issued bulletins. 16 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) Okay. 17 A. I recall reading in those bulletins, and 18 it could well be this one as well, references to 19 askarels having mineral oil present and the 20 difficulty in reclaiming and using that material. 21 It could well be in this document. I could have 22 read it in the previous issues. I don't recall just 23 where I saw that. 24 Q. Okay. Now I understand that you are 25 describing the subject matter of askarel CLA YTON~Ri5~ROR~T~f~NG COMPANY, LTD. nii) 797-f^n? WATER PCB-SD0000060467 255 1 contaminated with oil. My next question is do you 2 recall the subject matter of the converse, that is 3 to say oil contaminated with askarels, being raised 4 in a Monsanto publication? 5 A. Not in a Monsanto publication, no. 6 Q. Did you ever personally conduct any 7 studies to analyze the degree of permanence of the 8 family of Aroclor chemicals? 9 A . I personally? 10 Q. Yes, sir. 11 A. No . 12 Q. Did you ever personally participate in 13 the running of gas chromatography or mass spectra - 14 MS. RUMAGE: Graphic? 15 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) -- spectrometric I think 16 it is analyses of PCB samples? 17 A . No . 18 Q. I'm putting before you Exhibit 368 , the 19 letter of Monsanto dated February 18, 1970. Are 20 some of the trade names represented in this letter 21 trade names that were used in Great Britain? 22 A . Yes. 23 MR. GRANOFF: Time frame, please? 24 Q. (BY MR, SMITH) As of about 1970, did a 25 unit of Monsanto sell an askarel formulation which CLAYTON REPORTf-NG COMPANY, LTD. t -> 1 A \ WATER PCB-SD0000060468 256 1 had a trade name of Pydraul, P-y-d-r-a-u-1? 2 A. Pydraul ia not an askarel. 3 Q. Which of the products listed on this 4 letter were ones manufactured or formulated by 5 Monsanto for sale in England at the time of this 6 letter? 7 A. The Aroclors, both 1254 and 1260; and 8 the Pydrauls, P-y-d-r-a-u-1; and I believe, although 9 I'm not very certain, Turbino1. 10 Q. Were these products or some of them 11 formulated to an electrical equipment manufacturer 12 specification? 13 A * No - 14 Q. These were Monsanto's own products? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Do you recall today the names of any 17 British transformer manufacturers to which Monsanto 18 sold these products in the early 1970s? 19 A. I can only recall two of them and I 20 don't have their full official names. There's the 21 Philips Company, P-h-i-l-i-p-s, and the Siemens 22 Company, S-i-e-m-e-n-s. There are others, but I do 23 not recall them by name. 24 Q. Did a unit of Monsanto ever formulate to 25 these companies' specifications an askarel fluid by tnrAYTDN R~EPCrRT~rNt5 CCWPANY , LTD. -- WATER PCB-SD0000060469 257 1 the name of Pyratene, P-y-r-a-t-e-n-e? 2 A. I don * t know. 3 Q, Did Monsanto ever formulate to a 4 European electrical equipment manufacturer 5 specifications any askarel fluids? 6 A. I understand they did. 7 Q. Do you recall any of the trade names of 8 them? 9 A. I do not. 10 Q. At the bottom of the letter marked 11 Exhibit 368 is the statement PCBs with a chlorine 12 content of less than 54 percent have not been found 13 in the environment and appear to present no 14 potential problem to the environment. 15 Was that statement correct to the best 16 of your knowledge as of February 1970? 17 A. Yes . 18 Q. Did the accuracy of this statement later 19 come to be modified or changed in any way? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. How did it change? 22 A. It was found that samples of 23 particularly water and soil and sediment taken near 24 the point of discharge, the analyst could detect the 25 PCBs with chlorine content less than 54 percent. i A A\ T CA WATER PCB-SD0000060470 258 1 Q. Can you give me a rough approximation of 2 how much later than February 1970 that situation was 3 detected? 4 A. Within a year. 5 Q. Okay. Was that in the Hudson River or 6 do you know a particular place where that was 7 discovered? 8 A. The Hudson River was certainly one of 9 them but I -- I don't recal1 if it was that early 10 yet. There was evidence of materials being found in 11 the Great Lakes. There was also evidence of 12 material found down in the Gulf of Mexico. 13 MR. GRANOFF: Excuse me. Was that 14 within a year or so of February 1970? 15 THE WITNESS; That is correct. 16 MR. GRANOFF; Okay. I'm sorry. 17 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) Does this reference in 18 the letter to PCBs with a chlorine content of less 19 than 54 percent mean to exclude Aroc1or 1260 and 20 Aroc1or 1254 because they had a content of greater 21 than 54 percent? 22 A. Exclude from what? 23 Q. My question is does Aroc1or 12 5 4 have a 24 chlorine content of less than 54 percent? 25 A. No . CLTYYTON ItEFOItT I~Nt3 COMP A N Y f LTD. ~ / o i * \ n n ~y rcno WATER PCB-SD0000060471 259 1 Q. Okay. And Aroclor 1260 has a content of 2 chlorine higher than 54 percent, does it not? 3 A. That is correct. 4 Q. Okay. Aroclor, is there an Aroclor 5 1242? 6 A. Yes . 7 Q * And the Aroclor 12 4 2 had a chlorine 8 content of less than 54 percent, did it not? 9 A. Yes . 10 Q. Did you ever visit any -- Did you ever 11 visit any transformer repair facility or operation 12 undertaken by the Onion Electric Company in St. 13 Louis? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Did you ever discuss with any 16 representative of the Union Electric Company their 17 practices, if any, in working on transformers? 18 A. I don't recall any discussion that 19 focused on their practices. 20 Q. Did you ever receive any reports 21 secondhand from other Monsanto employees who 22 described the operations of any electrical utility 23 with respect to repairing of transformers? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Is any information that you have CfljAYTON REPORTING COD . /'jin . WATER PCB-SD0000060472 260 X concerning the potential for cross-contamination of 2 utilities, of utilities' transformers during repairs 3 by those utilities, based on what you have picked up 4 in conversations with people in the ANSI 5 subcommittee over the years? 6 A. Primarily, yes. 7 Q. And can you recal1 the identity of any 8 of those persons? 9 A. I'd almost have to name all the members 10 of the panel, the working group. 11 Q. Okay. 12 A. As discussed around a table similar to 13 this one. 14 Q. Okay. Would that group of individuals 15 that you were -- that you have described include 16 people on the list of ANSI C107 members that follows 17 the foreword to the ANSI guidelines which we've 18 marked as Exhibit 378? 19 A. Yes, it would. 20 Q. Okay. Do you remember any particular 21 conversation with a person who actually was the 22 employee of a utility as opposed to a manufacturer 23 or a government entity? 24 A . No . 25 Q. I noticed in Exhibit 370, which is m*A-Y-TON HR-EPeftg-I-NG--QMgAtHPrHErT D . (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000060473 261 1 labeled Monsanto's PCB Program by W. B. Papageorge, 2 a reference on Page 10 I'd like you to look at. 3 A. I have Page 10. 4 Q. At the top of Page 10 there is your 5 statement to the effect that: "This summer our 6 hopes of control in the heat transfer business 7 vanished when we found that a user of PCB did not 8 appreciate the problem, did not maintain his 9 equipment and created the recent chicken, egg, fish 10 meal problem." 11 Who was that? 12 A. That was a fish meal sterilizing 13 operation. I'm trying to recall the name that it 14 operated under. Something like Eastern Terminals 15 Company. East Coast Terminals Company. 16 Q. Where were they located, if you recall, 17 in reference to a state? 18 A. In North Carolina. 19 Q. Is that when you first met Mr. Davidson? 20 MR. DAVIDSON: Probably first met 21 my firm, not me. 22 A. No, he's a little too young for that. 23 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) Do you know what they 24 had done that led to the problem? 25 A. Yes, I do. DAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. m 707-fiRn'? WATER PCB-SD0000060474 262 1 Q What was that? 2 A. They had a piece of equipment through 3 which fish meal was transferred at the same time it 4 was being heated to temperatures that would 5 sterilize the fish meal. The heat source around 6 this equipment in the jacket that was built around 7 the containing device was a heated PCB mixture 8 called Therminol. A leak developed in that system 9 where the hot oil entered the fish meal and rather 10 than shut down the system and repair the leak this 11 company chose to proceed and continue making fish 12 meal contaminated with PCBs. That fish meal was an 13 ingredient in chicken feed and that's how the 14 chickens and eggs got involved. 15 Q. All right. And is the reference here to 16 "the heat transfer business" a reference to those 17 mechanical systems by which heat is transferred to a 18 product in the course of manufacture or processing? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. It does not have reference to a 21 dielectric fluid usage, does it? 22 A No . 23 Q. Did the Monsanto incinerator when it 24 operated between the early '70s to 1977 take only 25 liquids or did it take some solids in the form of CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. ------ /'U41 7 77 WATER PCB-SD0000060475 263 1 capacitors? 2 A. No, only liquids. 3 Q. Okay. Are you aware of any deliveries 4 by anyone of mineral oil contaminated with minute 5 quantities of PCBs to the incineration facility at 6 Monsanto? 7 MR. GRANOFF: Objection as to the 8 form, vagueness. Use of the term minute has no 9 definition. 10 MR. CLAYMAN: I join in that 11 objection. 12 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) I'll change my question 13 to include askarels -- I'm sorry, mineral oil with 14 any quantity of askarels or PCBs in it. 15 A. I am aware of liquids that were 16 flammable that were sent to the unit for destruction 17 and these liquids contained PCBs. At the moment I 18 don't specifically recall the designation being 19 mineral oil as distinguished from diesel fuel as 20 distinguished from mineral spirits and so on. 21 Q. I believe you had testified that you had 22 made certain persons aware that if there was an 23 accidental contamination of mineral oil by PCBs 24 Monsanto would be willing to take that for 25 incineration, correct? fMrAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. WATER PCB-SD0000060476 264 1 A. That is correct. 2 Q. And you had some concerns at the time I 3 believe that people might deliberately spike their 4 mineral oil in order to qualify for your 5 incinerator; is that correct? 6 A . That is correct. 7 Q. Did that situation ever happen to your 8 knowledge; that is , where someone deliberately 9 contaminated their mineral oil so that they could 10 avail themselves of paying you three cents a pound 11 to burn it up? 12 MR. GRANOFF: Objection, calls for 13 speculation. 14 A. I'm not aware of any deliberate 15 contamination. 16 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) Showing you my copy of 17 Exhibit 372, which was marked yesterday and consists 18 of a Monsanto letterhead form letter I believe, this 19 document was not produced with a page on the front 20 of it bearing an address label to Florida Power & 21 Light or anyone else. Can we assume from the 22 absence of such an addition to this piece of paper 23 that Monsanto has no way of knowing to whom this 24 letter was mailed? 25 A. Oh, I don't know that I can assume CLAYTON REPORTING COMRAtr^r LTD. WATER PCB-SD0000060477 265 1 that There may well be somewhere in the files a 2 list of the companies that received this letter. 3 Q. Okay. Well, I note that some of the 4 exhibits we've looked at today and yesterday had 5 pieces of paper on the front which had an address 6 label for Florida Power & Light; is that correct? 7 A. That is correct. 8 Q. And do you know who compiled that 9 exhibit in such a way; that is, who put the label 10 page on top of the form letter page? 11 A. No, I do not. 12 Q. Do you know what instructions the person 13 who compiled that exhibit was given in order to put 14 it together? 15 A . No, I wouldn't know that. 16 Q. Okay. Do you know if Monsanto during 17 the time you were in charge of the PCB issue kept in 18 its records a copy of each letter sent to a customer 19 with a sheet on top of it having that customer's 20 address? I'm trying to determine whether this 21 exhibit is something that was extracted from the 22 files as it's been kept for twenty years or whether 23 this is something that has been put together more 24 recently than that, if you know. 25 A. The practice when these letters ^iiArYTON REPORTING COMPANY , LTD. WATER PCB-SD0000060478 2 66 1 initially were sent is to have a copy of this letter 2 and affixed to it was a copy of all the addressee 3 labels that were prepared prior to removal and 4 placing them on the envelope that would be as many 5 pages as required to accommodate all the 6 recipients. That collection of documents, 7 addressees plus a sample of the letter, was to be 8 retained in the sender * s files forever. 9 Q. Okay. 10 A. That was the instructions given at that 11 time . 12 Q. Did you give those instructions? 13 A. No, it was given by the Monsanto 14 attorneys to the business group director who in turn 15 passed it on down to all those reporting to him. 16 Q. Okay. Do you know whether or not one of 17 these other exhibits that we've seen that had the 18 apparent copies of labels attached to the front is 19 one that had addresses for other recipients obscured 20 for the purpose of responding to the subpoena to 21 Monsanto? I reference particularly items or 22 Exhibits 377 and 376. 23 A. Yes. I would -24 Q. To your recollection an item such as 25 Exhibit 376 as kept in Monsanto's files, were all of WATER PCB-SD0000060479 267 1 these apparent address slips shown on the front ones 2 that had addresses written but they've simply been 3 removed now? 4 A. That is my understanding of what we're 5 seeing here. 6 Q. Okay. On Exhibit 377 , which is a letter 7 of February 28 , 19 7 2 , and consists of two copies of 8 that letter, one addressed to purchasing agent, one 9 to plant engineer, are the addresses on the front of 10 this exhibit meant to correspond to one for the 11 pi ant engineer letter and one for the purchasing 12 agent letter? 13 A. That is right. 14 Q. And can you tell from looking at this, 15 the first page of Exhibit 377, whether or not 16 Monsanto had different addresses for a plant 17 engineer or a purchasing agent at Florida Power & 18 Light? 19 A. I can't tel1 from this document. In 20 some cases they had one for each, in some cases they 21 sent to one address with attention to plant 22 engineer, attention to purchasing agent, or 23 attention plant manager, whatever appeared to be 24 appropriate. Sometimes if the name was known the 25 individua1's name would be shown. CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. / 7 i /i WATER PCB-SD0000060480 268 1 Q. Okay. 2 A. When the name was not known, the title "3 would be shown. 4 Q. Okay. The reason I ask is I wonder if 5 you can help me understand any meaning you can 6 attribute there to the handwritten words same - 7 well, excuse me. Same but P.O. Box 650, no 8 address. Is that -9 A. -- I -- I don't know how to interpret 10 that. I don't know whose handwriting this is and I 11 don't know when it occurred. At the time of the 12 date of the memo or some other time, I don't know. 13 Q. That's what I would like to see if I 14 could find out was whether or not that was something 15 put together for the purpose of complying with the 16 subpoena in this case or is that a reflection of 17 what the files contained back at the time in 1972 or 18 so? 19 A . I can 't answer that. I don't know. 20 Q. Okay . 21 MR . DAVIDSON: Mr. Smith, let me 22 just make a point of clarification. I don't think 23 it really makes a lot of difference , but these 24 documents were not produced in response to a 25 subpoena. CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD,--------------------------------T^TT) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000060481 269 1 MR. SMITH! Okay. 2 MR. DAVIDSON: They were 3 voluntarily produced in response to a letter. 4 MR. SMITH: Okay. That's fine. 5 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) I'd 1ike to ask you to 6 take a look at the guidelines that were marked as 7 Exhibit 378 and if I may I'd like to look over your 8 shoulder. 9 MR. GRANOFF: Do you have the 10 original there? 11 MR. SMITH: I have the original. I 12 found that our Xerox copies last night were missing 13 the pages that were numbered internally 19, 20, and 14 21. Here it is. 15 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) I want to ask you a 16 question about that. Could you turn to Appendix B. 17 A. I have it. 18 Q. Is Appendix B a statement of analytical 19 procedures and laboratory service organizations? 20 A . It is. 21 Q. Are the descriptions of analytical 22 procedures ones which Monsanto prepared? 23 MS . ROMAGE: I'm sorry, which one 24 are we looking at? 25 MR. SMITH: Appendix B to the CLAYTON REPORTING COMPAQ, LTD. ------ WATER PCB-SD0000060482 270 1 guidelines which begins on Page 20. 2 A. These appear to be a copy of Monsanto's 3 procedure, yes. 4 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) Okay. Is the first 5 procedure under Section B3 one for the analysis of 6 PCBs in air? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Okay. Is the procedure discussed later 9 on under a different section a procedure for the 10 determination of PCBs in water, soil, and i 11 bio-organisms? 12 A. I see on Page 31 the section of the 13 article entitled B4, Analysis of Water and Sediment 14 for PCBs. I do not see any reference to organisms. 15 However, it's ray understanding that the procedure 16 for sediments could apply to organisms. 17 Q. Okay. Let me direct your attention 18 towards the -- I'll withdraw that. 19 On Page 31 at the end of the Section B3 20 concerning air samples there is a sensitivity 21 statement, is there not? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And is that sensitivity statement which 24 references a concentration of two ppb the same 25 sensitivity statement that is set forth in your trrxOTTOir^repQRTING COMPANY. LTD. ------ 777-6^03 WATER PCB-SD0000060483 271 1 letter of January 19, 1972, to Mr Raab and Mr 2 Pozefsky concerning PCB analytical sensitivity? 3 A. yes. 4 Q. By comparing the sensitivity statement 5 in the guidelines with the sensitivity statement 6 referenced as the Monsanto basis in your letter from 7 1972, can you tell us whether or not this 8 sensitivity analysis going to two ppb was one 9 related to air, water, sediments, or oil? 10 A. It applies to all. 11 Q. It applies to all, okay. Is there any 12 portion of the appendix to the ANSI guidelines which 13 gives an analytical procedure for testing a sample 14 of oil for the presence of PCBs? 15 MR. DAVIDSON: Mineral oil? 16 MR. SMITH: Mineral oil, yes, sir. 17 A. Not specifically entitled so, no. 18 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) Okay. Was there any 19 reason why air and water and sediments were included 20 in the ANSI guideline appendix but not mineral oil? 21 MR. GRANOFF: Objection, 22 foundation. 23 A. The group was oriented toward impact on 24 the environment, so sediments, water, and air fit 25 nicely in that concept. CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. ------ WATER PCB-SD0000060484 272 1 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) Okay. 2 A. The reference to mineral oil was not 3 made because it didn't seem to fit in that. 4 Q. Okay. Does the beginning of Appendix B 5 list some laboratories where PCB analysis could be 6 obtained as of the time of the promulgation of the 7 ANSI guidelines ? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And that includes entities named Carus, 10 C-a-r-u-s, Chemical Corporation, Limnetics, Inc., 11 and Gollob, G-o-l-l-o-b; is that correct? 12 A. That is correct. 13 Q. It does not include Monsanto there as a 14 laboratory source for analysis, does it? 15 A. That is correct. 16 Q. Okay. Turning to Appendix A of the 17 guidelines, this concerns sources of disposal 18 services, does it not? 19 A. Correct. 20 Q, And Monsanto is listed as one of the 21 disposal service locations, is it not? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And in addition, there are several 24 others, correct? 25 A. Correct. tMrOTTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. ------- I^UI 7 97-fi'in'! WATER PCB-SD0000060485 273 1 Q* Two of those are named Nuclear 2 Engineering Company, are they not? 3 A. Yes . 4 Q. And were they a radioactive waste 5 disposal contractor licensed by the Atomic Energy 6 Commission? 7 A. Some of their operations did involve 8 nuc1ear waste, yes. 9 Q. Okay. Do you recall whether or not you 10 ever told anyone who called you for information that 11 by reference to this Nuclear Engineering Company PCB 12 disposal should be treated like radioactive waste? 13 A. No . 14 Q. Do you know Mr. A. L. Rickley? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Was he an employee of Doble Engineering 17 who participated in the ANSI subcommittee? 18 A. Yes, 19 Q. In the ANSI committee? 20 A . Yes. 21 Q. Is his company one which has for years 22 engaged in testing and analyses of transformer 23 liquids? 24 MR. GRANOFF: Objection, vagueness. 25 A. Yes. tTL-AYTtrN--REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. ~ WATER PCB-SD0000060486 274 1 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) Did you ever have any 2 discussions with him as to his company's abilities 3 at any time in terms of sensitivity of analysis for 4 PCBs in mineral oil? 5 A. We had at least one discussion. 6 Q. Can you place it in time within any 7 framework of years? 8 A. It was before the ANSI committees were 9 formed. I would suggest it was late '70, 1971 time 10 frame. 11 Q. \ Did that conversation include a 12 discussion of Doble's then ability to test mineral 13 oil for PCBs? 14 A. I don't know that he specifically 15 mentioned the media in which they were trying to 16 detect PCBs. He was aware that analytical 17 methodology was much more sophisticated than 18 anything they'd done up to that point and he was 19 very interested in finding out from Monsanto what 20 kind of equipment it would take and what kind of 21 training and how long would the learning curve 22 take. This kind of discussion did take place and I 23 was left with the impression that he was going to go 24 back and set up his own laboratory at that time. 25 Q. Did he ever inform you of any plus or tMYTON -REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. mi) 7'17-^m WATER PCB-SD0000060487 275 1 minus standard of accuracy by which they were 2 capable of detecting PCBs against a mineral oil 3 background sample? 4 A. No, he did not. 5 Q. You testified yesterday that you became 6 aware during the ANSI committee meetings that 7 certain users of PCBs were sending equipment to 8 scrap dealers because of discussions had in your 9 presence. Is that correct? 10 A. That is correct. 11 Q. And did those discussions make you 12 conclude that that was a common practice? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Were those discussions that you had with 15 Mr. Raab from Westinghouse -- G.E.? 16 A. I'm sorry, the discussion was with the 17 committee rather than a single individual. 18 Q. I appreciate that this is something that 19 you described in general terms. I'm wondering 20 whether or not you can identify any speaker that you 21 connect up with that impression you got. 22 A. Well, Mr. Raab as committee chairman was 23 definitely a leader in this discussion and he is the 24 one that more or less orchestrated the topics and 25 would make opening remarks, introduce the topic, so GTrAY~TGN R~E~R&RTT N G COM PA^Y --TiT&T / 71 /I \ WATER PCB-SD0000060488 276 1 I do associate him with virtually all topics 2 discussed. As to the other participants, no single 3 person seems to stick out. 4 Q. I'm just wondering if you can recall a 5 specific story or something that was related by a 6 particular person in this topic area that stuck in 7 your mind. 8 A. There were no specific incidents 9 described. It was just a generalization of this 10 kind of thing is out there or could be out there, 11 how do they address it for purposes of establishing 12 standards. 13 Q. I'd like to again return to the 14 guidelines that you have before you there as Exhibit 15 378. Is it your belief that the word askarel as 16 used in the guidelines always was intended to have 17 the meaning inclusive of mineral oil contaminated 18 with askarel? 19 A. The double use of the word askarel there 20 confuses me where you said there's askarel, mineral 21 oil with askarel. 22 Q. Let me rephrase that. Is it your belief 23 that the word askarel as used in the guidelines was 24 intended by the preparers of the guidelines to 25 include mineral oil containing any quantity of PCBs? <HrA Y T O N--R-E-P6HR-TIN G COMPANY, LTD. nii) 7'>7-^Rin3 WATER PCB-SD0000060489 277 1 : A. Yes. 2 Q. And so wherever askarel is used in these 3 guidelines, it should be understood by the reader to 4 have that meaning, correct? 5 A. That was the intent, yes . 6 Q. Okay. Would you turn to Paragraph 2.1, 7 which is on the internal Page 7 of the guideline, I 8 believe. Do you see the subhead General there? 9 A. Yes . 10 Q. And it begins by stating the term 11 "askare 1" generally describes a broad class of 12 nonflammable synthetic chlorinated hydrocarbon 13 insulating liquids, etc., does it not? 14 A. That's right. 15 Q. Now the usage of the word askarel in 16 that sense could not have been intended to be 17 inclusive of mineral oil contaminated by PCBs, could 18 it? 19 A. Not in that sense. 20 MR. GRANOFF: Objection, 21 argumentative. 22 A. That is correct. 23 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) And in the next 24 paragraph following right below that begins askarels 25 consisting of or containing polychlorinated CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. WATER PCB-SD0000060490 278 1 biphenyls have been used in many applications for 2 more than forty years, as used in that sentence, 3 part of which I've read, the word askarels is not 4 used in the sense to apply to mineral oil containing 5 PCBs, is it? 6 A. That is correct. 7 Q. So there are places in the guidelines, 8 are there not, where the word askarel sometimes 9 includes or was intended to include mineral oil 10 contaminated with PCBs and sometimes the word 11 askarel was not intended to have that meaning; isn't 12 that correct? 13 A. No, askarels are askarels. 14 Q. Okay. 15 A. Whether they're present in the unit at a 16 hundred percent of their original formulation or 17 present as a cupful in fifty gallons of mineral oil, 18 the askarels are still there. It's a cupful. 19 Q. Right. 20 A. And the intent of this is look at that 21 cupful and use this guideline to handle properly 22 that cupful no matter what else is associated with 23 it. That was the intent. 24 Q. Well, was there any articulation in the 25 guidelines that it is known that from time to time tTtT-Ay-TQN--ftTPtrfrTING COMPANY . LTD. WATER PCB-SD0000060491 279 1 mineral oil in trans formers contains some quantities 2 of PCBs? 3 MR. GRANOFF: Objection as to the -- 4 other than what was described yesterday in the 5 disposal section whi ch specifically mentions PCBs 6 and mineral oils bei ng mixed, other than that 7 section? 8 MR. SMITH s No, not other than that 9 section. Anywhere. 10 MR . GRANOFF: Well, that's one 11 place. 12 MR. SMITH: Well, you're not 13 testifying and if yo u were I think I'd have to 14 cross-examine you pr etty carefully about that last 15 misconstruction. 16 MR . GRANOFF! Go ahead. 17 A. I haven' t read this document for over 18 fifteen years thorou ghly , but I do recall reference 19 to the disposal of 1 iquids of d ifferent kinds that 20 contained the PCBs. 21 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) All right. That's the 22 one in -- 23 MR . GRANOFF: 4.1.6. 24 Q. 25 correct? BY MR. SMITH) -- 4.1.6.2.1 at Page 15, G-LA-Y-TQN REPORTING COMPANY, LTD-.--------------------------------------- rn 4i 7^7-^ni WATER PCB-SD0000060492 280 1 A 4.1,6.2.1, yes. 2 Q. Yes, sir. This referred to liquids by 3 way of a brief title, does it not? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And it goes on to introduce its thought 6 by saying liquids containing PCBs requiring disposal 7 may consist of and it lists three things, correct? 8 A. That is correct. 9 Q. And the first thing is PCBs contaminated 10 with mineral oil, right? 11 A. That is correct. 12 Q, And the second thing is mineral oil 13 contaminated with PCBs? 14 A. Correct. 1 15 Q. And then the third thing is 16 nonreclaimable askarels, askarels from spills and 17 sumps and so forth; is that correct? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Okay. Now, at other places throughout 20 the guidelines with respect to Plant Housekeeping, 21 4.2.1? 22 A. I see that. 23 Q. Or Askarel Filling Area, 4.2.1.1, the 24 references there are to askarels per se and not oil 25 contaminated with PCBs or PCBs contaminated with CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD.----------------------------------- nin 797-Ksn-! WATER PCB-SD0000060493 281 1 oil; is that correct? 2 MR. GRANOFF: Objection, 3 argumentative. Misstates and mischaracterizes 4 previous testimony. 5 A. I don't at the moment see any specific 6 reference to oil. I do see reference to waste 7 fluids containing askarel not suitable for reuse. 8 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) Is that in 4.2.1, Plant 9 Housekeeping? 10 A. No, I see it under 3.3.4 on Page 11. 11 Q. That's the capacitor guidelines? 12 A. Yes, that is capacitor. 13 Q. All right. I think I want to try to 14 focus on the transformer guidelines but if you need 15 to make reference to capacitors that's fine. 16 A. I was in the wrong section. I'm sorry. 17 MR. GRANOFF: What's the question? 18 Is there a question pending? 19 MR. SMITH: No. 20 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) Let me ask you this: In 21 4.2.1, Plant Housekeeping? 22 A o I found it . 23 Q. In that section is the reference to 24 askarel and askarel spill intended to advise the 25 reader or make the reader understand that it is a CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD.__________________________ ( 71 4> WATER PCB-SD0000060494 282 1 reference to include mineral oil contaminated with 2 PCBs ? 3 MR. DAVIDSON? Do you understand 4 the question? 5 A. I don't think I understand your 6 question. Would you mind repeating it? 7 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) By way of background to 8 my question, I understood you to say in reference -9 in an answer to Mr. Granoff1s questions from time to 10 time that at certain points in these guidelines, 11 specifically the Section 4 on transformer 12 guidelines, references to askarel per se were meant 13 to include oil contaminated with PCBs? 14 A. Yes . 15 Q. And my question, and we could go through 16 it piece by piece, but generally what I'm trying to 17 determine is is the reader supposed to detect that 18 by knowing that the word askarel as used in certain 19 of these subsections necessarily includes mineral 20 oil contaminated with PCBs? 21 MR. GRANOFF; Objection. Calls for 22 Mr. Papageorge to climb into the mind of the 23 reader. 24 MS. BERKOWITZ; I join in that. 25 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) I'm really asking for HLA-YTQN REPORTING -C-Q44P-AN-Y-,-------------------------------------f ? 1 4 ' 707-fiSm WATER PCB-SD0000060495 283 1 what you believe was intended in the preparation of 2 the language. 3 A. The intent was that in those activities 4 which involved the -- the use, the proper use of 5 askarels, the practice in the industry would dictate 6 what specifications that askarel must meet to result 7 in proper use. Under those conditions, mineral oil 8 contaminated with askarel would not apply, that 9 section would not apply. 10 When it came to those sections that says 11 what do I do with this askarel that I cannot longer 12 use, it is a waste, I have it and I've got to do 13 something responsible with it, then we expect the 14 reader to read up what can I do with it, can I send 15 it to Monsanto for burning, can I send it to someone 16 else, can I bury it in a landfill. Under those 17 conditions then the mineral oil with that 18 contamination, askarel, falls under that category of 19 proper disposal of this waste. It was intended that 20 the reader would arrive at that knowing he had some 21 askarel on his hands to get rid of in spite of the 22 bulk of it being mineral oil. 23 Q. Turning to the last section of the 24 transformer guidelines 4.2.3.6, Transformer 25 Disposal, at Page 17? CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY. LTD.___________________________ ---------------------- r.t.i.a.--7?7-fi5m------------------------------------------------------WATER PCB-SD0000060496 284 1 A. I see it. 2 Q. Was it intended there that use of the 3 word askarel or askarel-filled or askarel-soaked was 4 meant to include mineral oil filled transformers 5 which had any concentration of PCBs in them? 6 MR o GRANOFF ? Objection, asked and 7 answered. 8 A. That was the intent. 9 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) Okay. Why wasn't it - 10 Why was it not stated that the ultimate disposal of 11 a mineral oil trans -- filled transformer 12 contaminated with PCBs should be disposed in this 13 manner in addition to the words askarel-filled 14 transformer? 15 A. I guess in hindsight maybe we should 16 have had a section that says accidental 17 contamination of mineral oil and how to handle it, 18 but at the time the accidental contamination was 19 looked upon as an infrequent occurrence and the 20 people in charge had to make some decisions and they 21 should be led or guided by these standards. 22 Q Would you please turn back to Page 16 23 and the general section numbered 4.2.2 at the top of 24 the page. Transformer Labeling. 25 A. 4.2.2? CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY,__ LTD .__________________________ -----------------------(3 14)--727-6503--------------------------------------------------------- WATER PCB-SD0000060497 285 1 Q. Yes, sir. Do you see that one? 2 A. I don't see the reference to labeling. 3 I see an in-service transformer. Way up there I see 4 it now, yes. 5 Q. The general heading is Transformer 6 Labeling? 7 A. Yes . 8 Q. And then there are subsections below 9 that, correct? 10 A. I see that, yes. 11 Q. And the subsection at 4.2.2.1 is a 12 reference to the labeling of new transformers that 13 contain PCBs? is that correct? 14 A. That is correct. 15 Q. Was that meant to include new mineral 16 oil filled transformers which somehow in the 17 manufacturing process came to contain any amount of 18 PCB ? 19 A. That was not the intent of this, no. 20 Q. Okay. At the time of the consideration 21 of the ANSI guidelines the situation was known, was 22 it not, that in the manufacturing process at some 23 point in time there had been cross-contamination? 24 A. Yes, but I was also led to believe that 25 the new unit would not be shipped with contaminated -C-LAY-T-Q-N---RE-P-QH-T-IN-G...CO-M-EA-NX-,__L-TEX I XU) 7 WATER PCB-SD0000060498 286 1 virgin new liquid in it. 2 Q. Did anyone lead you to believe that the 3 manufacturers in the years '72, '73, '74 ran 4 analyses of mineral oil in their transformers to 5 determine if there was any amount of PCBs included 6 within them before shipment? A. They didn't determine the PCBs. 8 Qo Well, I'm sorry. 9 A. When they order the material according 10 to some specifications, it's considered to contain 11 so many -- so much percent PCBs. 12 MR. DAVIDSON; Wait a minute. 13 Let's clarify he's talking about mineral oil. 14 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) I'm talking about 15 mineral oil transformers and that's where I started -16 A. "- I got confused then. 17 Q. You told me that you understood that 18 something that was contaminated would be tested and 19 not shipped. You weren't talking about mineral oil 20 filled transformers, you were talking about 21 askarel-filled transformers? 22 A. I was going back to this transformer 23 labeling and calling for a label that indicates PCBs 24 are present in the unit. 25 Q. Right. CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY,___LTD ._____________________________ ---------------------------------------------------rrrri--727-6503---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- WATER PCB-SD0000060499 287 1 A. And your question had to do with -2 Q. Did that apply to mineral oil filled? 3 A. Mineral oil units contaminated with PCB, 4 it was my understanding from participating in all 5 these discussions that no responsible manufacturer 6 would ship a new transformer and knowingly - 7 knowing that PCBs are present in the oil. 8 Q o Okay. But did any of them advise you 9 that they were testing products ready for shipment 10 to guard against that accidental misadventure? 11 A. No, they did not, 12 Q. Okay. Look down to Subsection 4.2.2.2, 13 In-Service Transformers? 14 A. Uh-huh. 15 Q. Did that intend to advise the reader 16 that transformer manufacturers should send labels 17 warning of the presence of PCBs for all mineral oil 18 transformers manufactured in the past and now in 19 service which contained or could have contained some 20 amount of PCBs? 21 A No . 22 Q o Okay, If this relates to in-service 23 transformers it would relate to transformers which 24 had already been put into operation by the end user, 25 would it not? (114) 777-6^07 WATER PCB-SD0000060500 288 1 A . 63i 2 Q Okay. Did this guideline for issuing 3 decals for transformers in service only relate to 4 the transformers which were designed to include 5 askarels as opposed to mineral oil transformers? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. All right. 8 (Deposition stood in temporary recess.) 9 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) I want to return to the 10 transformer guidelines at the Transformer Labeling 11 Section 4.2.2. The first subsection pertains to new 12 transformers that contain PCBs, correct? 13 A. That is correct. 14 Q. And the second subsection refers to 15 in-service transformers that contain PCBs; is that 16 correct? 17 A. That is correct. 18 Q. How was the reader -- How was it 19 intended that the reader understand that these 20 labeling guidelines referred only to askarel 21 designed transformers and not to mineral oil filled 22 transformers that contained any amount of PCBs? 23 A. Certainly from the wording of in-service 24 transformers he wouldn't know that. 25 Q. He would not know that? CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY,__ LTD .__________________________ ---------------------- rTT4.,--727-fSSm------------------------------------------------------- WATER PCB-SD0000060501 289 1 A. He would not know that, no, 2 Q. Okay. But as to the new transformers, 3 according to your recollection at that time new 4 transformers as far as you were aware didn't contain 5 oil contaminated with PCBs; is that correct? 6 A. That was not the intent. 7 Q. All right. By reason of the phone call 8 just a moment ago I got some more names of people 9 that I'd like you to see if you recall. Was there 10 on the ANSI subcommittee a Mr. R. Allen or -- I'm 11 sorry -- D. E. Allen from Al1is-Chalmers? 12 A. Yea. Yes. 13 Q. Was there on the ANSI committee a Mr. 14 H. R. Rowe from McGraw-Edison? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Was there on the ANSI committee or 17 present at any of its meetings while you were 18 chairman a Mr. J. C. Kissinger, R-i-s-s-i-n-g-e-r, 19 from Westinghouse? 20 A. Rissinger. I believe Mr. Rissinger had 21 retired before the committee was formed so he was 22 not present . 23 Q. Okay. With respect to these people, Mr. 24 Allen, Mr. Rowe, Mr. Rissinger, do you recall any 25 comments they made to you on the topic of the -C-LA-Y T-ON--R-E-ROR-T I-N-G C O M-P A-N Y ,--L-T-CU-----------------------------------------t mi WATER PCB-SD0000060502 290 1 introduction of PCBs into mineral oil in their 2 manufacturing facilities at any time? I'm 3 specifically trying to go back to that topic that 4 you mentioned in connection with Mr. Saab and so 5 forth to see whether or not you recalled any of 6 these individuals may have commented to you on that 7 topic o 8 A. I don't recall any such discussion with 9 those individuals. 10 Q. Okay. Did you become aware at some 11 point in time in 1976 or 1977 that the electrical 12 equipment manufacturers sent letters to their 13 customers advising that mineral oil filled 14 transformers might contain some quantities of PCBs? 15 A. No, in that period of time I was no 16 longer intimately involved with PCBs. I do not 17 recall hearing or seeing anything relating to that. 18 MS. BERKOWITZ: Could you read that 19 question again? 20 (The requested portion of the record was 21 read by the Reporter.) 22 MS. BERKOWITZ; Thank you. 23 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) Please look at a copy of 24 Exhibit 376. I'll show you my copy but I believe - 25 Well, here's the original right in front of you. CXAY TON REP OR-TI-&G.-COMPANY,--LTD--.---------------------------------------rtTTI 7''7-6Sn'! WATER PCB-SD0000060503 291 1 This exhibit includes a form letter on Monsanto 2 letterhead dated April 1972 and makes reference to a 3 representative of a government pollution control 4 agency contacting Monsanto for information. This 5 was a letter that you were involved in preparing 6 and, in fact, you signed, did you not? 7 A. That is correct. 8 Q. What governmental pollution control 9 agency is referred to here? 10 A. EPA, Federal EPA. 11 Q. Okay. Did this agency ask for 12 information concerning PCB sales nationwide? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. At the end of the -- Well, in the third 15 paragraph it says he asked for names and addresses 16 of PCB customers in his area and then the next 17 sentence says something about discharge from sewage 18 treatment facilities in his area. Can you tell me 19 what area was referred to? 20 A. All right. The initial request was 21 nationwide . 22 0. Yes. 23 A. And then he limited to the area covered 24 by the Kansas City office of EPA, and at the moment 25 I don't recall how many states that involves. But CLAYTCM&--REP-QR-T-IN G C OMEAMY-,__LTD-___________________________ TTTT1 WATER PCB-SD0000060504 292 1 it's that district. 2 Q. Okay* Is it a fact that when you sent 3 this letter to people on your customer list you did 4 not limit it to that Kansas City area but tried to 5 cover your entire list? 6 A. That is true. 7 Q. Just out of a concern to be prudent on 8 your part? 9 A. Well, there was every indication that it 10 was going to be nationwide eventually. 11 Q. Did it ever -- Did EPA ever obtain this 12 information on a nationwide basis from Monsanto? 13 A. Not on a nationwide, no. 14 Q. Did they come back sort of customer by 15 customer from time to time or area by area? 16 ho No, they -- the Kansas City office came 17 back in 1975 and we gave it to them. Other than 18 that, I don't -- I'm not aware of any other similar 19 r eques t . 20 Q. All right. Please look at Exhibit 380. 21 Does this exhibit appear to reflect minutes of 22 ANSI's process of reviewing the 1974 guidelines for 23 the purpose of revising them? 24 A. That's my understanding reading this 25 document, yes . CJjAT-Q-N--R-E-IMJRT ING COMPANY, LTD.--------------------------------------TTTT1 777-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000060505 293 1 Q. Please look at the page numbered at the 2 bottom Page 3 and also has Exhibit B-4 on it? 3 A. I found it. 4 Q. Do you see that Paragraph No. 8 at the 5 top? 6 A . I do. 7 Q. It states, and I quotes Transformer 8 Rebuild & Service Testing. There may be something 9 obscured between the word service and testing. And 10 it goes on to say: Present guidelines deal with 11 manufacturing plants where PCBs may be handled in a 12 separate facility. This section should include 13 repair shops where both oil- and askare 1-fi11ed 14 units may be handled in the same facility, and 15 special handling procedures may be required to avoid 16 contamination of oil-filled units. 17 Is that a correct statement of that 18 language there? 19 A . It is. 20 Q. Is this a reference, as you understand 21 it, to revising the Plant Housekeeping portion of 22 the guidelines? 23 MR. GRANOFF: Well, let me just 24 offer an objection to the extent that at the time 25 these minutes were promulgated I believe Mr. CLAYTON R E P O R TTN G--CQ-M-BANX-,__L-T-D-.________________________ TTTTn n7-^ni WATER PCB-SD0000060506 294 1 Papageorge has testified he was no longer chairman 2 of C107, but you can certainly proceed to answer, 3 Mr. Papageorge. 4 A. I have no way of knowing what section of 5 the guideline this would have been -6 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) Okay. 7 A. -- included. 8 Q. Did you understand that as to the 1974 9 ANSI guidelines that they just dealt with 10 manufacturing plants in the sense of excluding 11 repair shops? 12 MR. GRANOFFs Objection, 13 argumentative. 14 A. I don't know that the intent was to 1 5 exclude repair shops. The emphasis was admittedly 16 on the manufacturing plants, but keep in mind many 17 of the major manufacturers also operated extensive 18 service shops throughout the country. I recall the 19 discussion made about these sma11er contract 20 services . 11 was be 1ieved at the time by the group 21 present that this should not be too big a problem 22 and somehow the guidelines would get disseminated 23 and it could be responsibly handled. I can only 24 conclude that that decision was not adequate and the 25 committee decided to address it specifically during HLAYTON RE POR TXNG--C-Q-M-RAttY-,--LI-CU---------------------------------------------------------nrtri--??7-6 =;m WATER PCB-SD0000060507 295 1 the revision period. 2 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) That apparently, 3 according to these words here, the committee decided 4 to word more expansively the areas in which special 5 handling precautions should be taken? 6 A . Yes. 7 MR. GRANOFF: Excuse me. Was C107 8 ever revised following its adoption in 1974? 9 MR. SMITH: You must have ESP. 10 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) Was it revised? 11 A. I was led to believe it was revised. I 12 personally have not seen a copy. 13 MR. GRANQFF: And I do have ESP, 14 that's correct. 15 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) Were you ever led to 16 believe that it was -- that the guidelines were 17 rescinded at some point in time earlier than their 18 normal five-year lifetime? 19 A. I have not heard that. 20 Q. Did you have any understanding that as a 21 normal protocol ANSI guidelines were to be called up 22 for review at the end of every five-year period? 23 A . Yes. 24 Q. But you do not know if the 1974 ANSI 25 guidelines were in effect in 1979? CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD._________________________ TTT'3'T 7?7_6sm WATER PCB-SD0000060508 296 1 A. I do not. 2 MR. GRANOFF: Without revision? 3 MR. SMITH: With or without 4 revision . 5 MR. GRANOFF: Excuse me. 6 0 (BY MR. SMITH) Your answer would be the 7 same? 8 A. I do not. 9 Q. I noticed on the second page of this 10 exhibit that it states that the location of this 11 Transformers Subcommittee meeting was at EPA 12 headquarters. Noting that, do you recall that any 13 of your ANSI committee meetings when you were 14 involved ever took place at EPA facilities? 15 A. No, it did not. 16 Q. Do you know if subsequent to you 17 stepping down from chairman of the committee that 18 subcommittee meetings or committee meetings of the 19 ANSI group took place at EPA facilities? 20 A. Not until I saw this document the other 21 day . 22 Q. Do you have an attendance roster as part 23 of this exhibit which is Exhibit No. 380? 24 A. I do. 25 Q. Do you see the name about eight names CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY,--LTD .--------------------------------------ni ii i 7 WATER PCB-SD0000060509 297 1 down the roster of Ed Gladbach and reading next to 2 it representing Los Angeles Water and Power? 3 A. I see that, yes. 4 Q. Do you know -- Did you know Mr. Gladbach 5 and do you know whether or not he was from Los 6 Angeles Water and Power? 7 A. I do not know Mr. Gladbach. 8 Q. Okay. Are the members of the ANSI 9 committee that voted on the approval of the 10 guidelines those individuals listed at the bottom of 11 the foreword and onto the next page? 12 A. Yes o 13 Q. Were the working groups for transformers 14 and capacitors during your chairmanship composed of 15 subsets of these individuals or larger groups of 16 people? 17 A. These individuals served on either one 18 or the other committee. 19 Q. Okay. And there were not other 20 additional people who were not committee members of 21 ANSI but did work in the subcommittees? 22 A. Yes, there were visitors in a sense, 23 observers. There were also individuals brought in 24 by the members, a part of their staff back at the 25 home office, to help them. CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY,--LTD .--------------------------------------TTTTi WATER PCB-SD0000060510 298 1 Q. All right. 2 A. Everyone was invited to participate in 3 the discussions whether they were official members 4 or not, but when it came time to vote and arrive at 5 a consensus only the members of the committee had 6 that right. 7 Q. I just wondered if there was ever 8 anything like a roster of the subcommittees back in 9 the '72, '73, '74 time period that you recall? 10 A. Well, there were -- the rosters in a 11 sense were the mailing lists of minutes that these 12 subcommittees would on occasion issue that would 13 show who attended a meeting in a given area at a 14 given date. 15 Q Okay. Did Monsanto ever receive any 16 mineral oil samples to test for PCBs from any 17 electrical equipment manufacturer? 18 A. Not to my knowledge. 19 Q. When you first began getting up to speed 20 in early 1970 and continued on thereafter, did you 21 keep any log or written record of PCB spill 22 incidents? 23 A . No . 24 Q. Did you keep any log or written record 25 of cross-contamination incidents? nui 7 WATER PCB-SD0000060511 299 1 A * No. 2 Q. Is there any written -- Would there be 3 any written record today at Monsanto, if it has been 4 kept, of what you learned about the potential for 5 cross-contamination of mineral oil with PCBs? 6 A. I don't I don't know of any. 7 MR. SMITH; Mark that, please. 8 (Said instrument was marked for 9 identification as Exhibit No. 388, 2-22-90, JMF.) 10 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) I'm showing you what I 11 have caused to be marked as Exhibit 388 consisting 12 of two copies labeled Purchase Order, Florida Power & 13 Light Company, and two pages that have previously 14 been marked as a separate exhibit concerning or 15 labeled Florida Power & Light, Materials Returned to 16 Monsanto for Incineration. These are Bates numbered 17 PSA 1695 through 1698. 18 Do you know if the first two pages of 19 Exhibit 388 are copies of purchase orders which 20 Monsanto found pertaining to Florida Power & Light 21 Company in its files when it voluntarily produced 22 records to Pepper's Steel? 23 A. That is my understanding, yes. 24 Q. Okay. Is the date of the first purchase 25 order on the front of this exhibit September 1970? CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY.,....LTD .___________________________ ttttt 7 WATER PCB-SD0000060512 300 1 A. Yes. 2 Q Does this purchase order appear to 3 reflect the payment and shipping instructions for 4 the delivery of scrap PCBs or askarels to the 5 Monsanto incinerator? 6 A o Yes o 7 Q. Does the second purchase order appear to 8 reflect the same instructions with regard to payment 9 and shipping? 10 A o Yes o 11 Q o Do these appear to be copies of 12 purchasing or payment records maintained by the 13 Monsanto Company in the ordinary course of its 14 business? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Was it Monsanto's practice in the years 17 between 1970 and 1976 to maintain copies of all the 18 purchase or payment documentation concerning 19 shipments of PCB waste to its incinerator? 20 A Yes o 21 Qo Do you remember that prior to the 22 adoption of ANSI guideline -- the ANSI guidelines in 23 1974 that an official standards proposal was 24 circulated by ANSI? 25 A. A proposal was circulated by NEMA. mn 7T7-fiS(n WATER PCB-SD0000060513 301 1 Q o Okay.. Was the proposal circulated by 2 NEMA called an official standards proposal? 3 A . Yes. 4 Q. I assure you this is not a memory test 5 but I'm just looking for anything that may or may 6 not stick out in your memory. Do you recall if 7 there was any memorable change from the wording of 8 the NEMA official standards proposal to the ANSI 9 guidelines as adopted? 10 MR. GRANOFF: Let me object because 11 now you're making it a memory quiz. I think it's 12 unfair unless you show Mr. Papageorge the two 13 documents simultaneously. 14 Q c (BY MR o SMITH) I'll be glad to. I 15 don't mean to suggest that there would be any change 16 whatsoever. I'm looking to see if there's anything 17 in your memory that sticks out in particular. 18 A. Nothing that I would call significant 19 was changed in the document. 20 MR. SMITH: Can we mark this? 21 MR. GRANOFF: Do you want it? If 22 you want to. 23 MR. SMITH: Well, you objected. 24 MRo GRANOFF: That may be true, but 25 I'm not going to object as far as your marking it. (Tin Tn.cqin LTD WATER PCB-SD00000605 302 1 MR o SMITH % I don't think it's 2 important. 3 MR . GRANOFF? I agree. 4 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) Do you recall as you sit 5 here today any discussions with anybody from Florida 6 Power & Light Company other than the calls you 7 recalled having with a Mr. Fair? 8 A. I do not. 9 MS. BERKOWITZ? I'm sorry, what was 10 the answer to that? 11 MR. GRANOFFs He does not remember 12 any other calls or any other persons other than 13 Fair . 14 THE WITNESS? I do not. 15 Q. (BY MRo SMITH) Do you recall receiving 16 any written communication from anyone at Florida 17 Power & Light Company concerning PCBs at any time? 18 A. No, I do not. 19 MR. SMITH? No further questions. 20 Thank you. 21 THE WITNESS? Thank you. 22 (Deposition stood in temporary recess.) 23 (Said instrument was marked for 24 identification as Exhibit No. 389 , 2-22-90 , JMF. ) 25 MR. SMITH? Back on the record. CLAYTON REPORT TNG...C0MAJflX-^LTJD_------------------------------------ TTT"5"T 777_6Sn7 WATER PCB-SD0000060515 303 1 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) Do you have before you 2 the document I have caused to be marked as Exhibit 3 389? 4 A Yes, I do. 5 Q. Exhibit 389 is a letter on Monsanto 6 letterhead consisting of two pages followed by a 7 noted two page document on Monsanto letterhead. 8 Together they are PSA 1445 through 1448. 9 Have you seen this letter before, sir? 10 A. I have. 11 Qe Were you involved in the writing or 12 preparation of this letter? 13 A . H o e 14 MR. CLAYMAN; Is it dated? 15 MR. SMITH; It's dated February 4, 16 1972; I'm sorry. 17 Q. (BY MR. SMITH) Were you consulted at 18 all with respect to the decision to write and to 19 send this letter? - 20 A . No a 21 Q. Were you advised by -- Did you 22 understand within Monsanto that this letter had gone 23 out to anyone from Monsanto? 24 A o Yes. 25 Q o To whom was this letter sent, if you WATER PCB-SD0000060516 know? r" t L2 A. It was sent to purchasers of PCB-type 3 products that manufactured electrical equipment and 4 used those products in that equipments 5 Q. Okay. Would that include G . E . , 6 Westinghouse as examples? 7 Ac Yes. 8 Q0 Okay. Did the letter that was sent out 9 include as one of its attachments a proposed 10 indemnification agreement such as is attached here 11 at 1447 and 1448? 12 A Yes. 1 3 Q. Okay. Do you know if those were entered 14 into between Monsanto and any electrical equipment 15 manufacturers? 16 A o Yes 17 Q. To the best of your knowledge did every 18 manufacturer which purchased these products from 19 Monsanto enter into such an agreement? 20 A. Not all of them, no. 21 Q. Did Monsanto continue to sell dielectric 22 fluids to any manufacturer who did not enter into 23 such an agreement regarding indemnification? 24 A . They did not. 25 Q. Does this Exhibit 389 appear to be a CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY (114) 727-6503 LTD. ................ WATER PCB-SD0000060517 305 1 copy of the record generated and maintained by 2 Monsanto in the course of its regular business? 3 L Yes . 4 Q Were these records kept and maintained 5 by Monsanto to keep track of its communications with 6 electrical equipment manufacturers regarding the 7 issue of PCBs? 8 one purpose, yes. 9 . SMITHS No further questions. 10 Thank you. 11 MR. DAVIDSONs Next? 12 CHOSg-EXAMINATION 13 BY MS. NELSONS 14 Q. Mr. Papageorge, my name is Elizabeth 15 Nelson. I represent Lloyds and some other companies 16 in the London insurance market and I just have a 17 couple of questions, very brief questions for you. 18 In Exhibit 370, which was your -- I 19 think your opening statement at the ANSI meeting in 20 September of 1971, on Page 6 of that at the very 21 bottom or the very last paragraph on that page. 22 A o What page ? 23 Q. Page 6 of that statement. 24 A. Ihaveit. 25 Q. The third to last line, other major uses ----------------------nui---r>7-65m LTD . WATER PCB-SD00000605 306 1 include the use in hydraulic fluids which are fire 2 resistant, what kind of fluids specifically were 3 those hydraulic fluids? 4 A. These are fluids sold under the trade 5 name Pydrauls and used in such equipment as air 6 compressors and hydraulically operated conveyor 7 systems in say the die casting business where hot 8 metals are handled and where a fire-resistant fluid 9 is required in the event of a rupture of the high 10 pressure lines to prevent fires and explosions. 11 Q. Thanks. I'd like to refer to the letter 12 that you had written to Mr. Raab and Mr. Pozefsky. 13 I think it's in 375. I think it was January 17th, 14 1972, on sensitivities? 15 A. I recall it. I have it. 16 Q. Did Monsanto work with the FDA or USDA 17 in sharing technology in developing these testing 18 methods ? 19 A. Yes. The chemists from both 20 laboratories were in very close contact with each 21 other . 22 Q. Did the FDA or the USDA ever ask 23 Monsanto to conduct tests for them or do the 24 analyses for them? Well, my question comes from 25 some of the FDA standards that are mentioned or CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY ---------------------- rrm--727-6503 WATER PCB-SD00000605 307 1 guidelines are lower than FDA testing sensitivity Fu. n 2 apparently is and I was just wondering if Monsanto 3 would actually do testing for them. A. We did not do testing as it might be indicated as a routine matter. We did -- Our laboratory shared samples and they compared the results in an attempt to fine tune their procedures so that both laboratories came up with the same 9 answers. That's the extent of the testing we did 10 for FDA. 11 Q. I think you may have answered this, but 12 the medium of the sample didn't impact at all on the 13 degree of the sensitivity, milk or fish or mineral 14 oil or water, testing for PCBs in any of them it 15 didn't ? 16 A. No, the chemists learn how to extract 17 the PCB out of the medium to the point where the 18 sensitivity for detection was virtually the same for 19 all samples. 20 Q. Did Monsanto ever make mineral oil and 21 produce mineral oil? 22 A. No o 23 Q. So you had no personal -- Monsanto had 2 4 no experiences with this cross-contamination or 25 problems of cross-contamination itself, it would CLAY TUN__R E P QRTING... COMPANY ,__ LTD .__________________________ rrui 7'7_p;sn? WATER PCB-SD0000060520 308 1 just be you know this through discussions in the 2 committee? 3 A. True. I don't want to mislead. I am 4 not aware of any transformers used by Monsanto might 5 have been contaminated. I don't know that. Other m 6 than that, Monsanto has no specific experience 7 regarding mineral oils. 8 MR. NELSON? Okay. As I said I 9 would be brief, Jim Walker would be very 10 disappointed with me, but that's all I have. Thank 11 you . 12 MR. CLAYMAN? I guess I'll go next. 13 CROSS-EXAMINATION 14 BY MR. CLAYMAN? 15 Q. Mr. Papageorge, my name is Landon 16 dayman and I represent The Home Insurance Company. 17 A. All right. 18 Q. I believe you testified that you were 19 not involved in the production of PCBs until you 20 were at the Anniston plant; is that correct? 21 A. That is correct. .t 22 Q. Is that the first time you worked with 23 PCBs? 24 A. No. Maybe we ought to compare notes 25 regarding the use of the word production. To me OLAY TON-..REPORTING COMPANY,--LTD.. WATER PCB-SD0000060521 1 that means actually creating PCBs from a 2 manufacturing process. Then my answer was correct 3 in that it happened in Anniston, Alabama. Q. Did you work with PCBs prior to that time? 6 A Yes o Q. Okay. And what work was that? A. Well, in every case it was supervisory 9 type of activity. My first exposure was as a 10 maintenance superintendent of the electricians in 11 the plant that serviced electrical equipment. 12 Q. Is that in the 1957-'59? 13 A. That is correct. 0 ` Is it fair to say Monsanto is in the business of producing and selling chemicals? 16 A. That is their primary business, yes. 17 Q They have other lines of business as 18 wel 1 ? A o Yes . 20 Q. Okay. And when did Monsanto begin 21 manufacturing PCBs? 22 A. They purchased a company in 1934, as I 23 recall, that was manufacturing PCBs and had 24 established a market then. 25 Q. I'm sorry, what date was that? ---------------------------CLAYTON RE-POSTING COMPANY, LTD.-------------------- - ................... ......<.314 ) 7 2 7-65 0 3 ......................~== WATER PCB-SD0000060522 310 f"-\ u 1 2 A. 1934. Q. Did Monsanto ever discontinue the 3 production or manufacture of PCBs? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. When was that? 6 A 1977c 7 Q. And why did it stop producing PCBs? 8 A. The customers informed Monsanto that 9 they thought they had found with some trade-offs let 10 me call it, some less desirable characteristics but 11 they were still suitable replacements for PCBs and 12 their manufacturing lines were ready and adaptable 13 to these substitutes. 14 Q. Okay. Do you recall when in 1977 the 15 production stopped? 16 A. Production stopped in July of 1977. 17 Q. The customers you referred to, are these 18 were these limited at this time to the -- in July of 8 7^ 7 19 to the manufacturers of electrical equipment? 20 A. That is correct. ^ 21 Q. Well, am I correct in understanding that 22 over the years PCBs had various uses or applications 23 beyond use in electrical equipment? 24 A. That is correct. 25 Q. Okay. And then over time some of these CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY___ LTD. (31 41 727-8*101 WATER PCB-SD0000060523 311 1 applications ceased? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And then at one point the only 4 application was in electrical equipment; is that 5 correct? 6 A. That is correct. 7 Q. When did that -- What was that point? 8 Was there a specific date that you can pinpoint? 9 A. That was early 1972 when the indemnity 10 agreements were drawn. 11 Q. I believe yesterday you mentioned use in 12 heat transfer equipment? 13 A. Yes . 14 Q. And use of PCBs in plasticizers? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And those uses ceased by early 1972; is 17 that correct? 18 A. The plasticizer use was terminated in 19 August of 1970. The heat transfer use was 20 terminated in 1971. 21 Q. Okay. Were there any uses or 22 applications other than plasticizer, heat transfer. 23 and electrical equipment? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. What were those? (114) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000060524 312 1 A* Hydraulic fluids? carbonless copy paper? r bi 2 and the term plasticizers is rather broad in that 3 they were used as ingredients in some special rubber 4 materials? caulking sealants? paints? varnishes. 5 Q. But those uses come under the umbrella 6 of plasticizers? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Now, with reference to the hydraulic 9 fluids, were PCBs ever used in hydraulic fluids that 10 would be used in automobiles? trucks? or other forms 11 of transportation? 12 A. No. 13 Qo And when did the PCBs stop being used in 14 hydraulic fluids, if you know? 15 A. We finally terminated the last 16 formulation in about April of 1971. 17 Q. Okay. And how about carbonless copy 18 paper? when did you stop -- when were PCBs - 19 A. -- About that same time. 20 Q. Same time? 21 A. Uh-huh. 22 Q. Were -- Was there any connection between 23 the termination of the use of PCBs in these 24 different products? That is? what was the reason v 25 for no longer using PCBs in heat transfer equipment? (^14) 777 WATER PCB-SD0000060525 313 I' ^ 1 A. We found that the heat transfer systems 1 2 were difficult to maintain leakproof and there were 3 ways to design around the fire problem , so we chose 4 to arbitrarily say that we will no longer have these 5 materials and refuse to sell them anymore 6 Q. Okay So in plas -- in heat transfer 7 equipment then it was a decision by Monsanto that 8 caused PCBs to no longer be used in that equipment? 9 is that correct? 10 A That's right That's true of all of 11 these uses 12 Q Of all of these uses? 13 A. Yes . 14 Q. And is it fair to say that environmental 15 concerns were what prompted Monsanto to decide to no 16 longer sell PCBs to manufacturers of these different 17 products ? 18 A Definitely. Yes. 19 Q. In your statement to the ANSI 20 committees. Exhibit 370, there is a reference to on 21 Page 11 -22 A o -- Page 11? 23 Q Page 11. 24 A I have it. 25 Q. -- to meetings before Senator Phillip CLAYTON__RJLPQRTING .CQMPAHY-,--Ulh f 3 1 4 > 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000060526 1 Hart's committee and I presume is October of 1971 2 Do you recall whether these meetings took place in 3 October of '71? 4 A. 1 don't recall October. This reminds me 5 that they were held in August. I see what you 6 mean. You mean the resumption? 7 Q. Correct. 8 he Let me think. I don't think so, no. 9 Q. Okay. Did you ever testify before this 10 committee? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Okay. Did you ever testify before any 13 congressional committees with regard to PCBs? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Which committees and when did you 16 testily, please? 17 ho I testified before a committee in the 18 House of Representatives. It was a subcommittee of 19 the -- I don't recall the total title of that 20 committee, but it had something to do with merchant 21 marine and the committee chairman was a 22 representative from Massachusetts, as I recall. 23 MR. GRANOFF; Studds. 24 A. Studds, that's it. Representative 25 Studds. CLi LTD . < 3 1 4 \ 727-fiSO 3 WATER PCB-SD0000060527 1 Q (BY MR <. CLAYMAN) And when was that r' ^ b 2 testimony? 3 A. The best I can recall, 1974*. 4 Q. What did you testify about before that 5 subcommittee? 6 A e Very much like is in this Exhibit 3 7 0 , 7 what PCBs are, where they're used, what Monsanto's 8 actions were regarding limiting sales and why we 9 perceived the need in the electrical application as 10 being quite critical and the hopes that substitutes 11 could eventually be found and that general area. 12 Q. Okayo Do you know whether any 13 representatives from the transformer manufacturers 14 industry testified before that subcommittee? 15 A. I don't recall. 16 Q. Were you present at these hearings at 17 times other than during your own testimony? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. So you witnessed other persons 20 testifying before the subcommittee? 21 A. Yes o 22 Q. Were there any representatives from 23 utility companies testifying that you can recall? 24 A. I don't recall any. 2 5 Q. I take it you don't recall that a Mr. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000060528 316 1 Raab or Raab testified? 2 A . No, I don't. 3 MR. DAVIDSON; Are you referring to 4 the '74 hearings? 5 MR. CLAYMAN; Yes. 6 MR. SMITH; I think he's not. 7 Aren't you talking about -3 MR. GRANOFF; Studds' committee. 9 MR. CLAYMAN; Subcommittee, 10 congressional subcommittee hearings. 11 MR. DAVIDSON; That I believe was 12 m 13 Q. (BY MR. CLAYMAN) I think the pending 14 question is whether you recall Mr. Raab or Raab from 15 General Electric testifying before the congressional 16 subcommittee? 17 A. I do not recall Mr. Raab testifying. 18 Q. Did you ever testify at any other time 19 before a congressional body, committee? 20 A . No . 21 Q. Were you present during the August 1971 22 meetings or hearings that are referred to at Page 11 23 of Exhibit 370? 24 A. I believe I was in the audience. I did 25 not participate. ( "U a ) WATER PCB-SD0000060529 317 Q. Do you recall who did participate during the time you were present? A. I don't recall the individuals involved but I do remember that EPA representatives were present and made presentations before the committee,. Qo Do you remember whether representatives of any of the transformer manufacturer companies were present and testifying? A. No, I do not. 11 Q This document at Page 11 refers to your 12 expectation that Monsanto would be either invited to 13 testify or might choose to ask to be invited to 14 testify with regard to hearings in October. I take 15 it from your testimony that you or Monsanto was not 16 present at any further hearings of this committee? 17 A. I don't -- The best I recall is that 18 they never did take place. Monsanto was not invited 19 and no meetings took place is my recollection. 20 Q. Could you briefly explain to me how PCBs 21 are manufactured? 22 A. I'll try. We start with two basic 23 ingredients, one is commonly known chlorine. It's 24 the same material that's used to sterilize swimming 25 pools and so on. That's a gas at normal atmospheric CLAYTON REPORTING . CO.MP.ANY, LTD "(314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000060530 318 1 conditions. The other ingredient is benzene, which 2 many of you may have heard of it. It looks an awful 3 lot like a colorless gasoline, a solvent. 4 The chemist, if you want to picture it, 5 graphically represents benzene as a hex, as a 6 hexagon. The corners of each hexagon represent the 7 location of carbon, so there's six carbons on the 8 hexagon and attached to each carbon is a hydrogen. 9 That is benzene. Under pressure and high 10 temperature, two hexagons join point to point 11 releasing the hydrogen that occupied that one 12 position so we now have twelve carbons, two rings 13 with the hydrogens. That material is called 14 biphenyl. 15 I hope I'm clear here. It's kind of 16 hard to do it without -- Under normal conditions, 17 atmospheric conditions such as exist in this room, 18 that material looks like solidified candle wax. In 19 manufacturing the PGB, we take this solid material 20 and heat it and get a tank full of molten material 21 and bubble chlorine through it for a fixed number of 22 hours and you keep it agitated. The chlorine 23 randomly connects itself to each of those carbon 24 positions around these two benzene rings from one 25 chlorine -- every time it connects itself it CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY_^UIb ----------------------(314) 727-65 0 3 WATER PCB-SD0000060531 319 1 releases a hydrogen which joins with another 2 chlorine and makes a gas called hydrogen chloride 3 that's removed from the process. 4 After a given number of hours, a certain 5 mixture of PCBs is obtained and that mixture is the 6 one sought for after years of experience we've 7 learned after X hours you will get so much chlorine 8 in that mixture and it will equal one of the 9 Aroclors, A-r-o-c-1-o-r * either a 1242 or a 1254 or 10 those numbers that we've discussed earlier. 11 That mixture then is distilled and the 12 virtually crystal clear liquid becomes the PCB that 13 is soldo The residue is a black tar that had other 14 applications. It was not referred to as a PCB. 15 Does that help? 16 Qo Yes, that's very helpful. So I take it 17 then that the **- you have a recipe which would tell 18 you how many hours to keep this pot on the stove in 19 order to reach certain levels of these different 20 Aroclors you've mentioned previously? i 21 A * That is correct. 22 Qo Is that correct? Okay.. And then the 23 longer you keep it the chlorine bubbling through 24 the tank the higher the number? in other words, on 25 the Aroclor? C L A Y T ON REPQRTING COMPAEY ,... LTD , ----------------------(314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000060532 320 1 A. That is correct. 2 Q. Okay Now, the crystal clear liquid 3 which is produced after the distillation, is that 4 liquid at room temperature? 5 A Yes 6 Q. Okay 7 A It looks when it's very pure an awful 8 lot like baby oil It's about that consistency and 9 may be a little thicker for the higher chlorinated 10 ones . 11 Q. And the mixture you referred to, are you 12 talking about the proportion of chlorines per 13 biphenyl in any particular mixture? I don't make 14 myself clear I'm afraid Say the PCB can include 15 from one chlorine per biphenyl up to ten? 16 A Correct 17 Q. Okay In say Aroclor 1260 would there 18 be a higher percentage of the -- of ten chlorines 19 per biphenyl than the one chlorine per biphenyl? 20 A. No, those are the two extremes It 21 would be the one and the ten are very small in 1260 22 so they reach a peak. The peak occurs at about six 23 chlorines and you have a higher percentage of five, 24 six, seven, and eight in the 1260 than you do in , 25 1254, then 1254 has more of those than the 1242. So nui 7T7-^fn LTD c WATER PCB-SD00000605 321 1 you peak at a different point. 2 Q Okay. Do each of these different six, 3 seven, and eight have a different name? Would you 4 call them anything different? 5 A. Well, if we were referring to the 6 specific chemical as a family of chemicals you'd 7 call those hexachlorobipheny1 or pentachlorobiphenyl 8 or heptachlorobipheny1, and within each of those 9 families you designate the position around these 10 rings that the chlorine occupies. 11 Q. Theoretically if you keep the chlorine 12 bubbling through the tank a certain number of hours 13 you'd end up with ten per each biphenyl? 14 A. That is right, and ten chlorobipheny1 is 15 a solid. It's the mixture that's a liquid and each 16 of these PCBs if pure are solids also. It's the 17 mixture that's the liquid. 18 Q How, the crystal clear liquid you 19 referred to, with reference to that liquid is the 20 PCBs ~- is that the form of the PCB that you would 21 sell to manufacturers? iI 22 A. If they ordered a PCB, that's what they - 23 under the Aroclor label that's what they would get. 24 Q. I'm a little confused. I thought 25 Aroclor was an askarel which was PCBs that had been 17 i LTD.r L WATER PCB-SD00000605 1 combined with other ingredients? 2 A. No It's the other way around, Askarel 3 is a term used in describing liquid which contains 4 PCBs plus other ingredients. The principal other 5 ingredient is chlorinated benezenes, 6 MR. SMITHS Is that described to a 7 certain extent in this exhibit about askarels? 3 THE WITNESS? It should be*, yes. 9 MR. SMITH? The specs for the 10 different chlorines? 11 THE WITNESS? That's right. 12 Q. (BY MR. CLAYMAN) Now you referred 13 yesterday to a clear or amber liquid. Are we 14 speaking about the -- Is that the same crystal clear 15 liquid you referred to today? 16 A. The blends that are referred to as 17 askarels are more likely to be slightly yellowed to 18 amber because of the other ingredients that are 19 added. 20 Q. Do askarels have a distinctive scent? 21 A. I think they do, yes. 22 Q. Do the Aroclors have the same scent? 23 A. No, they have -- the askarels* 24 predominant scent to me are the chlorobenzenes which 25 are much more volatile. But the odor of PCBs to me t *} 1 A \ '70`7_ccno . LTD.;.......... ................. Z WATER PCB-SD0000060535 323 WATER PCB-SD0000060536 324 1 A. -- Your question indicated to me that 2 Monsanto had a formal extensive study established 3 for determining how PCBs get into the environment 4 Monsanto did not sponsor such an extensive study but 5 there were individual cases and the one I mentioned 6 earlier about the PCBs getting into fish meal, that 7 was a study of a specific isolated incident* That 8 kind of thing did take place* 9 We were relying an awful lot on the 10 government agencies making their studies regarding 11 presence in birds, presence in fish, and what the 12 pathways were and what they referred to as 13 biomagnification, how the concentration increased* 14 The longer the creature was exposed to a given 15 environment, those were all government studies that 16 were under way and we believe that they were better 17 qualified to do such a study than we were* 18 Q But you did conduct studies. didn't you, 19 to determine whether PCBs, in fact, were i n the 20 environment? 21 MR c SMITH s Monsanto or Mr e 22 Papageorge? 23 MR * CLAYMAN: No, Monsanto s 24 MR > DAVIDSON : I think you ' re 25 having a little problem with studies, with the term CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000060537 3 25 1 studies. 2 Q. < BY MR. CLAYMAN) Well, let me just ask 3 whether Monsanto investigated whether, in fact, PCBs 4 were found in the environment? 5 A. On a limited basis we were able to 6 obtain some samples of material and we analyzed for 7 PCBs in those samples. It was not a very extensive 8 program to establish and pinpoint. We were able to 9 determine that in a general way it is possible for 10 PCBs to be in the environment. And we -- as I said 11 earlier, we relied on other laboratories that were 12 better equipped to do such a study. 13 Q. With regard to the samples that Monsanto 14 tested, however, what kinds of samples are you 15 referring to? 16 A. Our laboratory looked at water samples 17 from various streams and lakes, they looked at soil 18 samples, sediment especially, the bottom of lakes 19 and so on. It looked at some fish tissue that was 20 sent to us by various laboratories. 21 Q. Okay. 22 A. Those are just some of the examples of 23 the kinds of things that were sent to us and we 24 looked at. 25 Q. Okay. Thank you. I take it you've been CLAYTON RRPnRTTMfi POMPaMV (314) 727-6503 L T-DWATER PCB-SD0000060J 326 1 deposed about PCBs in the past? r ~i U2 A. Yes , I have. 3 Q. How many times have you been deposed? 4 A. Well, I have not kept a score sheet. I 5 think a couple dozen times. 6 Q. I just want to run through a few 7 exhibits, Mr. Fapageorge. No. 367 that you 8 identified yesterday, is this a document that's kept 9 in Monsanto's records? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. It's kept in their records in the normal 12 course of business? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q o In the second to last paragraph. Page 3, 15 it states that in the functional fluids market we 16 have carried out a program for several years for the 17 reclamation of used PCBs to avoid disposal of these 18 valuable materials. 19 I hope I'm not being repetitive. What 20 is the functional fluids market? 21 A. This was the marketing group within 22 Monsanto that sold liquid chemicals that are used in 23 industry to perform some function such as the 24 dielectric fluid in the transformers, the fluid in a 2 5 compressor, or the fluid in a heat transfer unit. CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY. LTD. ....... - (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000060539 327 1 Those -- That group was referred to as functional ri b 2 fluids group. 3 Q. So is it your understanding then that 4 for several years prior to the date of this letter, 5 which is March 3rd, 1969, Monsanto was involved in a 6 program for reclaiming used PCBs that were used in 7 transformers ? 8 A. No, this is primarily heat transfer and 9 hydraulic fluids. 10 Q. Okay. 11 A. Which require less rigid specifications 12 than transformers. 13 Q Okay. Let me show you -- it might be 14 easier to do this in a group -- 368, 369, 372, 373, 15 374, and Exhibit 375 the pages with the Bates stamps 16 PSA 1664 through 1667 but apparently 1666 is 17 missing, 376, 377, 384, and then the last document 18 which was 389. Have you had a chance to look at 19 these as I've been handing them to you, Mr. 20 Papageorge? 21 A . I have. 22 Q. Are these all documents that are 23 maintained by Monsanto in its records in the regular 24 course of business? 25 A. Yes. CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY. 1 314)--727-6503 LTD. J WATER PCB-SD0000060540 328 r *1 Li (314) 727-fiSnT WATER PCB-SD0000060541 329 1 manager in environmental control at Monsanto, as I 2 understand it that was a newly created position? 3 A. Yes 4 Q o How many people did you have working for 5 you when you first took that position? 6 A. Part-time secretary. 7 Q. So it was just you? 8 A . Just me , yes . 9 Q So Mr. Graham and -- did not actually 10 work for you? 11 A. That is correct. 12 Q. And I believe there was a Mr. Grant or - 13 MR. SMITH: Bryant. 14 Q. (BY MR. GLAYMAN) Bryant, he did not 15 work for you? 16 A. Mr. Bryant did not report to me, no. 17 Q c Why did Monsanto bui1d the incinerator 18 that you've referred to? 19 A. We were aware of the need for the 20 disposal of liquid PCB products that could not be 21 reclaimed. We were concerned that disposal of 22 liquid in landfills could pose problems because 23 liquid is mobile as compared to solid wastes. We 24 could not find an incinerator, a commercial 25 incinerator, that could destroy the PCBs totally. CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD.___________________________ = (314) 727-6503 = WATER PCB-SD0000060542 330 1 But we felt that we should look into the potential Li 2 for incineration and provide that service because 3 there was no one else to do it. So we arranged and 4 had one constructed for us 5 Q. Why in January of 1972 did Monsanto 6 limit the sale of askarel fluids to customers who 7 had signed the indemnity agreements, if you know? 8 A. I can only share with you ray 9 understanding as it was described to me. One was 10 the sincere belief within Monsanto that the 11 continued use of FCBs in electrical equipment was 12 essential since no fire=resistant alternative was 13 available In order to avoid any arbitrary bans on 14 the use of these materials, we had to make certain 15 that the use of these materials was very carefully 16 controlled and responsibly done so. One way to get 17 effective control is to make certain that the top 18 managers in our customers' companies were aware of 19 the situation and one way to get that attention is 20 to have them sign a document that holds the supplier 21 harmless. 22 So really the primary driving force 23 behind that agreement was to get attention of top 24 management and at the same time there's no denying 25 it is to insulate Monsanto in the event some CLAY TON... REPORTING... COMPANY,... LTD rrm 7?7-6sot WATER PCB-SD0000060543 331 1 careless act beyond its control creates a legal 2 situation that Monsanto just can't handle or can't 3 control. 4 Q. Who related this to you? 5 A. This was related to me by an attorney in 6 Monsanto. 7 Q. Okaye Do you know why the NEMA 8 committee decided to attempt to address the PCB 9 problem through ANSI? 10 A. Yes, I do. NEMA is an organization that 11 represents the manufacturers of the electrical 12 equipment. In order to get a broader participation 13 and eventually a broader dissemination, it was 14 decided that going to ANSI was the proper way to go 15 because ANSI also has connections with the 1 6 International Standards Institute. By going to ANSI 17 we were able to gather under this one organization 18 representatives such as from Monsanto, for example, 19 and from the power and utilities people, from the 20 government, from the service companies like Doble 21 Engineering and so on. 22 So the intent was two-fold: One is to 23 get a broader participation; the other is to get 24 broader circulation, distribution. 25 Q. You testified yesterday about the CLAYTON REP QRTING COMPANY ----------------------------m~5~l 727-f*5n3 LTD WATER PCB-SD00000605 332 1 concern that mineral oil might be spiked with FCBs 2 in order to gain entrance to the Monsanto 3 incinerator and then today you mentioned that you 4 know of no specific instances of this having 5 happened- Why was there this concern? 6 A- Well, first of all, the unit as designed 7 had a given capacity. We wanted to reserve that 8 capacity for the true problem, which is destroying 9 unusable PCB liquids- We also priced the charge to 10 make it a break-even operation, so it made it a very 11 attractive, economical way to dispose of burnable 12 liquids and f1ammables- We didn't want anyone to be 13 abusing that opportunity because it diluted our 14 ability to cope with all the true PCB liquids and at 15 the same time we didn't want to be saddled with an 16 economic problem where people were getting a cheap 17 service when we really didn't intend it for that. 10 Q Was it your understanding that it was 19 less expensive t dispose of the fluids through the 20 Monsanto incinerator than through other methods? 21 A- That's my Yes, sir- Three cents a 22 pound at that time was a very attractive price. 23 Q- You mentioned that John Rissington or 24 Rissington? 25 A. Rissinger CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY. LTD. 13 14)--7T7-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000060545 333 1 Q. Rissinger? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Was the Westinghouse person designated 4 to be your contact in regard to PCBs; is that 5 correct? 6 Ae In early 1970, yes. 7 Q. When -- Between 1970 and 1977 or during 8 the time that you were working in the environmental 9 area in PCBs concerns, did each of the manufacturers 10 have a designee that you would deal with? 11 A. Yes, there was one person in each of the 12 most active companies., Not everybody participated 13 equally. There was always one person that I knew 14 would be the proper contact. 15 Q. Okay. And after Rissinger at 16 Westinghouse who was the designee for Westinghouse? 17 A. We mentioned him the other day. Starts 18 with an R. No, no, no. Not an R. His name escapes 19 me at the moment. 20 Q . How about Genera 1 Electric, who was the 21 contact there? 22 A. General Electric it started off as Mr. 23 Raab for transformers and Mr. Pozefsky for 24 capacitors. Later it became Dr. Simon, Ed Simons, 25 S"i-m-o-n"S, and then it became Stewart Richel, CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY,__ LTD TTT2"! 727-6^0? WATER PCB-SD0000060546 334 1 2 Q. How about Allis-Chalmers? 3 A. Was that Mr. Allen as I remember? 4 MR. SMITH? D. E. Allen. 5 A. I believe that's the name of the 6 individual . 7 Q. (BY MR. CLAYMAN) Who was the contact 8 person at MeGraw-Edison? 9 A o If I hear it I'll remember it. 11 10 doesn't come to mind right now. 11 MR o SMITH? H. R. Rowe. 12 A. Rowe. 13 Q. (BY MR. CLAYMAN) RTE? 14 A . I don't remember him. 15 MR. CLAYMAN? Off the record just a 16 second. 17 (Discussion was held off the record.) 18 Q. (BY MR. CLAYMAN) How about at Central 19 Mo1oney, was there a contact person that you recall? 20 A. Yes. Reichert, isn't it? Mr. 21 Reichert. 22 Q. Reichert? 2 3 A. R-e-i-c-h-e-r-t, Reichert. 24 MR, SMITH? There's a letter to him 25 I think in the exhibits, whatever his name is. CLAYTON--REPORTING COMPANY-,--LTD . ( 31 4 ) 777-6^07 WATER PCB-SD0000060547 335 1 Q. (BY MR. CLAYMAN) 18 ra not sure that this 2 was asked but I just want to cover it. Did you ever 3 visit any Florida Power & Light facility? 4 A. I did not. 5 MR. CLAYMAN; Thank you, Mr. 6 Papageorge. No more questions. 7 (Deposition stood in temporary recess.) 8 CROSS-EXAMINATION 9 BY MS. BERKOWITZ: 10 Q. My name is Sheryl Berkowitz, and I will 11 be as brief as possible. 12 Now you have testified that General 13 Electric had certain experiences in Pittsfield in 14 the early days where they made some wrong 15 connections and then based on these experiences they 16 designed their Rome, Georgia facility so as to 17 permit the same mistakes not to happen. Were you 18 referring to a specific incident in Pittsfield that 19 you had heard about or were you just generally 20 referring to that you had heard there was a problem 21 with this? 22 A. I understood that in the early 23 experiences of G.E. in the use of PCB transformer 24 fluids they underwent some situations where 25 contamination did occur and they learned from that CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LfBr WATER PCB-SD0000060548 336 1 experience. At no time did Mr. Raab and others with 2 G.. mention any specific transformer or date or 3 customer when they described the incident but they 4 described it as something that did occur and they 5 did all they could to avoid reoccurrence. 6 Q. And do you have any idea as to when this 7 may have happened, the time frame? 8 A In the '30s and 14Os is my 9 understanding. 10 Q. Do you have any idea as to whether or 11 not these contaminated transformers were sold? 12 A I was under the impression that they 13 were not sold as contaminated units. 14 Q. Are you aware of any specific 15 experiences of this cross-contamination at 16 17 A Hot specific situations, no. 18 Q. Are you aware of any specific 19 experiences at any transformer manufacturer? 20 A . No . 21 Q. Sir, you had test ified that you spoke 22 with Tom Fair at FP&L several times on the phone 23 during the time frame 1971 to '74; is that correct? | 24 A. That is correct. 25 Q. And you had testified that you spoke CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD00000605 1 about, among other things, keeping him up to date on 2 the PCB situation? 3 A Yes. 4 Q. Do you reca11 as to whether you spoke to 5 Mr. Fair about mineral oil contamination by PCBs? 6 A. No, I do not. 7 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to whether 8 Mr. Fair knew that mineral oil transformers were 9 contaminated with PCBs at the time you spoke with 10 him? 11 A. No, I do not. 12 Q Do you recall specifically when in 1975 13 the EPA rule making proceedings took place? And 14 these are the ones that you had testified about 15 earlier. 16 A The what making proceedings? 17 Q o The rule making proceedings and 18 hearings. 19 A. When? Your question was when in '75? 20 MR. DAVIDSON: Since the toxic 21 effluent standards, is that what you're referring 22 to? 23 Q (BY MS . BERKOWITZ) I'm referring to the 24 rule making and the proceedings and then the EPA 25 hearings with Dr. Sager at the EPA in '75, yes. CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY,--LTD. (314) 727-6501 WATER PCB-SD0000060550 338 CLAYTON REPORTING COM-FANY , LTD , -------- TvTT> 797-fi^m WATER PCB-SD0000060551 339 1 Q. So you do not know whether or not any 2 members of electric utilities were specifically 3 invited to this meeting? 4 A. That is correct. 5 Q. Was there a publication -- Was there a 6 notice -- Strike that. 7 Was there notification of these 8 proceedings published in the Federal Register? 9 A. Yes . 10 Q. You may have been asked this, but do you 11 know if anyone from Florida Power & Light ever 12 attended any of these meetings? 13 A. I do not recall any. 14 Q. You had testified that you received 15 statements that were presented at these proceedings 16 prior to the proceedings. Do you recall as to if 17 you had ever sent any of these statements out to 18 anyone? 19 A. No, I do not be1ieve I shared those with 20 anyone other than within Monsanto. 21 Q. And who would you have sent these to in 22 Monsanto ? 23 A. They would be sent to the marketing 24 individuals, the research people, the manufacturing 25 people, the business director, of course. Those are CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY f LTD.___________________________ (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000060552 1 examples of the types of people that would have 2 received it. 3 Q. Would you have sent these to any 4 officers of Monsanto? 5 Ac No e g Q. Okay,, And concerning any of the 7 materials that you may have received at any of these 8 meetings or proceedings,, would you have sent that 9 out to anyone else besides at Monsanto? 10 A No a 11 Q o You had previously testified about Warf, 12 W^-a-r-f, Wisconsin Alumnae Research Institute, that 13 that was a lab that could detect PCBs in mineral oil 14 in 1974; is that correct? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Were they actually testing mineral oil 17 for PCBs at that time? 18 MR. GRANOFFs Let me just object. 19 I think it mischaracterizes. I think it may have 20 been as early as 1972, but just note my objection. 21 MR. SMITHS I join in the objection 22 because I'm not sure that it was testified to about 23 oil samples but what's your best memory? 24 A. The Warf Institute Laboratory had the 25 capability of analyzing for PCBs in any type sample. CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000060553 341 1 which includes in mineral oil base. Whether or not 2 they analyzed mineral oils for PCB I have no way of 3 knowing . Q, (BY MS. BERKOWITZ) What about the lab in Knoxville, Tennessee, you had previously testified that they had a capacity to analyze PCBs as well? A. Yes, they did. Q Okay. So that would include a capacity to analyze mineral oil for PCBs? 11 A Yes 12 Q. And do you know if they actually did the 13 testing of mineral oil for PCBs? 14 A. I do not know. 15 Q. And the same questions concerning the 16 lab in Memphis, the Woodson-Tenant Labs, do you 17 recall or do you know whether or not they ever 18 tested mineral oil for PCBs? 19 A. I do not know if they did or not. 20 Q . But did they have the capacity to test? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And this is a clarification of your 23 previous testimony. You had testified, and correct 24 me if I'm wrong, that the definition of an end user 25 is the owner of a transformer who uses it on his CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. ----------------------(314) 727-6503------------------- WATER PCB-SD0000060554 site? is that correct? f A Q. Could an end user also be someone who owned a transformer but -- but did not use it on his own site? 6 DAVIDSONs That's not using it Ao Are you talking about a spare unit 9 that's in the warehouse to be used in an emergency 10 or 11 Q. (BY MS . BERKOWITZ) No. I'm talking 12 about someone who owned a transformer and used it 13 not use it on their own site, they used 14 it on someone else's site. 15 A . Oh . 16 MR. GRANOFF: I'll object because 17 it's vague. Maybe Mr. Papageorge knows what you 18 mean but could you give an example? 19 Q. (BY MS. BERKOWITZ) I could give an 20 example. Do you not know what I mean by that? 21 A. I have to confess some ignorance here in 22 terms of -23 Q o Fine. Let's say an electric utility 24 that owned a transformer and used the transformer in 25 the course of a business but the transformer was not (314) 777-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000060555 343 1 used on a site that they owned, it was used -- they r" i Li 2 just had permission to use a transformer at a 3 particular location. Would that electric utility be 4 considered an end user as well? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. I'm going to refer you back to Exhibit 7 385 . 8 A. I have it. 9 Q. This is also a clarification of your 10 testimony concerning this particular exhibit. Now 11 you had testified that no distinction could be made 12 concerning the terms that are listed on this exhibit 13 as to whether the terms PCB, askarelF Thermino1 14 related Strike that. 15 You had testified that there could be no 16 distinction that could be made concerning the terms 17 that are listed on this exhibit as to whether they 18 meant that the material returned to Monsanto was, 19 for example, askarel or PCBs, at cetera or whether 20 they were PCBs contaminated with mineral oil or 21 mineral oil contaminated with PCBs; is that correct? 22 A. Essentially so. What I meant to 23 indicate is that by reading this list I personally 24 cannot tell you whether any of these shipments was 25 predominantly mineral oil with a little bit of CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000060556 344 1 askarel or vice versa or no mineral oil at all* r'~ Q2 Q. So, sir, your testimony as to not being 3 able to make a distinction related just to what you 4 saw on this particular exhibit, on this particular 5 list; is that correct? 6 A e Yes. That's what the question was 7 about, yes. 8 Q. Okay. Were you able to distinguish 9 material meaning -- I'm not meaning you, I mean 10 anyone at Monsanto that was receiving the material, 11 were they able to distinguish the material that was 12 returned to Monsanto as to whether it was PCBs, 13 askarel, or mineral oil contaminated with PCBs or 14 PCBs contaminated with mineral oil? 15 MR. SMITHS Objection to the form 16 of the question. It is calling for speculation and 17 lack of foundation. 18 A. The practice at the plant is such that 19 there is no need to analyze and specifically 20 determine the material. Therefore, I don't know 21 that anyone was in a position to characterize a 22 particular shipment as to what materials were in 23 it. 24 Q. < BY MS. BERKOWIT3) So was the material V 25 returned ever tested or sampled upon receipt by CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY-,--LTD .---------------------------------------- tTTTj 777-fi^n^ WATER PCB-SD0000060557 345 1 Monsanto? F' 2 A. Not to my knowledge. 3 Q. Do you know if this material was ever 4 tested or sampled prior to being sent over to 5 Monsanto? 6 A. That I do not know. 7 Q. Do you know if there was ever any 8 indication from the entities that were shipping 9 these materials back to Monsanto as to whether these 10 materials were PCBs, askarels, or mineral oil 11 contaminated with PCBs or PCBs contaminated with 12 mineral oil? 13 A. I don't know that I understood the 14 question. Any indication on the part of the 15 16 A. No. The only indication that Monsanto got was the documentation on the shipping papers and 19 the documentation on the label, and the label in 20 most cases was supplied by Monsanto and the label 21 was already preprinted as this material contains 22 polychlorinated biphenyls and be careful how you 23 handle it and the like. 24 So I don't know how else to answer your 25 question. There is no other way that we could tell CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000060558 346 1 whether the drum was predominantly mineral oil or n 2 predominantly askarel. 3 Q c The drum would have been opened at the Monsanto site though; is that correct? A. Yes . Q. Would there be a way that you could 7 distinguish what was contained in these drums based 8 on sme11? 9 A. No. I don't know of any. 10 Q. Would there be a way that you could 11 distinguish what was contained in these drums based 12 on the color or the texture of the liquid contained 13 in the drums? 14 MR. GRANOFF: Objection; 15 speculation, lack of foundation. 16 MR. SMITH; Join. 17 Q. (BY MS. BERKOWITZ) Do you know if there 18 was a way that one could tell the contents of these 19 drums based on the texture of the liquid or the 20 color of the liquid contained therein? 21 MR. SMITH; Repeat objection. 22 MR. GRANOFF: Join. 23 A. The waste oils eventually all are a 24 brownish color and very difficult to distinguish one 25 type from another visually. The only way to really CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000060559 347 1 distinguish is to take samples and tie up valuable p- i u 2 instruments in a laboratory and time and come up 3 with a sophisticated answer for a problem that 4 really doesn't deserve that kind of attention, so 5 the material is just dumped into a tank, pumped into 6 the incinerator, and burned. No attempt was made to 7 identify specifically each and every drum that a arrived. 9 MS, BERKOWITZ s I have no further 10 questions. Thank you for your time. 11 THE WITNESS s Thank you. 12 CROSS-EXAMINATION 13 BY MS, RUMAGE: 14 Q. Mr. Papageorge, my name is Sarah 15 Rumage. I just have a couple of questions for you, 16 one of which is a follow-up question to the ones you 17 were just asked by Miss Berkowitz. 18 When Monsanto received waste products, 19 contaminated products for incineration from its 20 customers, did it ever -- did it ever evaluate any 21 of those products as unsuitable for incineration? 22 A. There was no formal test made regarding 23 suitability for incineration,, The incinerator was 24 of such a design, keep in mind we were burning a 25 material that was perceived to be nonf1ammable, so CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY f LTD. ---------------------- (.3r4.)....7.2.7.-.6.5.03 WATER PCB-SD0000060560 348 1 it was a very high tech unit so it was perceived r1 Li 2 that the only problem that we could probably have 3 would be with severe water contamination which would 4 prevent the unit from operating properly. As long 5 as a water 1ayer was not visible, two layers, oil 6 and water, the material was assumed to be 7 incineratable and introduced into the system. 8 Q <> Okay. Since you brought up oil and 9 water, I did want to ask you some questions about 10 that and if they sound silly or uneducated I'm 11 sorry. I'm not a chemist, and I ask that you explain 12 them to me in layman's type of terms. 13 Let me just start out with some general 14 questions about PCBs and askare1. When you say PCB 15 fluid and askarel, are you talking about the same 16 thing? I don't mean to belabor the point, but can 17 you use those terms interchangeably? 18 A o In some applications they are 19 interchangeable. 20 Q. Okay. If you have -- If you have a 21 transformer, could you use the terms interchangeably 22 to refer to what goes into the transformer? 23 A. For some transformers that is true. 24 Q. For which transformers would that be 25 true? CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY. LTD. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ( 31 4) 727-650 3 WATER PCB-SD0000060561 34 y 1 A. There are some transformers that are 2 filled with an askarel. 3 Q. All right. 4 A. Which is a hundred percent PCB. 5 Q. Okay. That would be just the PCBs 6 themselves in a liquid form, in a liquid state? 7 A. That is right. That is right. 8 Q. Okay. 9 A. Although the drum may be labeled 10 Inerteen with some numbers or Pyranol with some 11 numbers, the contents is a hundred percent Aroclor 12 1242. So there you can use the words 1 3 interchangeably, PCBs, askarel. 14 Q. Okay. 15 A. However, any askarel that has anything 16 in it other than PCB you cannot really call it a PCB 17 any longer, it is an askarel which is a blend of at 18 least three ingredients. 19 Q. What would these ingredients be? 20 A. It's PCB plus chlorinated benzene plus 21 an inhibitor to prevent the material from 22 decomposing. It's a chlorine scavenger. I don't 23 want to confuse you, but it's a minor amount of 24 material that's added to stabilize the material. 25 Q. Okay. All right. Would it be fair to ---------------------------CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD.------------------------(314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000060562 350 1 refer to -- And I'm not talking about the hundred 2 percent liquid PCB, I'm talking about the other type 3 of fluid. Would anyone commonly refer to that as an 4 oil? Does it have oil-like characteristics? 5 A. Yes, in the industry it's all referred 6 to as transformer oil. 7 Q. Okay. 8 A. Whether it's mineral oil or PCB, the 9 words in the trade are interchangeable. 10 Q. All right. And these questions may 11 appear to be a little off the track but I'm going to 12 bring the two things together. It will just help me 13 prepare the later questions better. 14 When you talked earlier about PCBs in 15 river water and streams and lakes, you said that you 16 would test the sediment for evidence of PCBs. Is it 17 fair to say that that's because PCBs are heavy? 18 Could they be described that way, would that be a 19 fair statement? 20 A. That is very appropriate. PCBs are 21 heavy than water. They do sink in water. 22 Q. Okay. If there is -- If askarel or a 23 PCB -- a fluid containing PCBs, such as this oil we 24 were talking about, the second type, if that were 25 mixed with mineral oil, what would happen? drAYTON REPtXRTTWG...COMPANY ,.....CTP". (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD000006056' 3D1 1 A. Under what conditions what would happen, 2 just mixing? 3 Q. Yes, that it's just in the little 4 transformer can and someone has mixed the oils. 5 A. They would blend -6 MR. SMITHS Object for the record 7 for lack of foundation for this answer. 8 A. The two liquids would blend very well. 9 They're compatible. With time it would be a uniform 10 mixture of the two inside this transformer. 11 Q. (BY MS. RCMAGE) Okay. Is it fair to 12 say -- Is it scientifically accurate to say that oil 13 with PCBs in it is heavier than regular mineral oil? 14 MR. SMITH: Object to the form for 15 lack of foundation. 16 A. No, I can't quite say that. It depends 17 on the amount of PCB present. 18 Q. (BY MS. RUMAGE) Okay. 19 A. If the amount is low, the oil will 20 maintain its characteristics and be lighter than 21 water and will float. As the PCB content keeps 22 increasing, you cross over eventually where the 23 weight -- let's call it the specific gravity is what 24 it's called changes to where it's greater than water 25 and it will sink. ---------------------------------CLAYTON - REPORTING COMPANY, LTD.------------------------------(314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000060564 352 1 Q. Okay. Not to correct you, but you're 2 using water. If I said water I misspoke myself. If 3 it's in mineral oil would it go to the bottom? 4 A. No, they would blend perfectly. 5 Q. They would blend. 6 A. There is no separation. 7 Q. Okay. So you couldn't -- you couldn't 8 see the difference say if I poured a glass, it 9 wouldn't be as though, you know, the mineral oil 10 would be on top? 11 A. If you did it very, very carefully 12 without stirring it you could see it for a while but 13 if the unit is working and it's heated and 14 convection currents are set up eventually a mixing 15 takes place and you look in there and you can't tell 16 where the oil is and where the PCBs are. They are 17 all uniformly blended. 18 Q, Okay. Let's say that it has been an 19 operational unit and for some reason the unit goes 20 out of operation and it is allowed to sit for a 21 period of time. Would there be a separation? 22 A . No . 23 Q. Okay. You also spoke about PCBs' 24 vaporization from stacks. Could you tell me how 25 that's caused? CtrAYTON REPORTING COMPANY,--LTD . (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD000006056` 353 1 A. That occurs at very high temperatures, 2 temperatures that exceed roughly four hundred 3 degrees Fahrenheit. That's a rough number but it's 4 high. And it also occurs in many systems where a 5 vacuum is drawn on the equipment to be able to 6 perform a function at lower temperatures so as you 7 draw the vacuum and discharge it out the other end 8 PCB vapors are included in that discharge. 9 Q. Does it ordinarily occur in 10 nonindustrial type situations? 11 MR. SMITH: Volatilization? 12 MS. RUMAGE: Yes. 13 A. Not to an appreciable amount. These are 14 closed systems. They do breathe a little bit but 15 we're talking now transformers? 16 Q. (BY MS. RUMAGE) Yes. 17 A. I would suggest that it would be a 18 little bit a stretch of the definition that they do 19 volatilize freely, no. 20 Q. Okay, When you said that Monsanto had 21 an incinerator to incinerate PCB, how hot would that 22 incinerator have to get? What temperature would it 23 have to reach in order for the PCB to be 24 incinerated? 25 A. It had to be over eighteen hundred CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. -- (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD000006056( 354 1 degrees Fahrenheit. i2 J 3 Q. Okay. A. That's the minimum temperature. 4 Q. All right. And by incineration could 5 you just tell me exactly what you mean? What 6 happens when the PCB is incinerated? 7 A. All right. They are totally destroyed 8 to the ultimate chemical entities that no longer can 9 deteriorate. For example, you end up with carbon 10 dioxide, that takes care of the carbon that's 11 present in PCBs; you end up with water, that takes 12 care of some of the hydrogen; and you end up with 13 hydrogen chloride, that takes care of some of the 14 hydrogen and the chlorine that was there 15 originally. Those three chemicals are very stable. 16 The water vapor just goes out the stack, 17 carbon dioxide goes into the atmosphere. The 18 hydrogen chloride is scrubbed, as it is called, with 19 water sprays and made hydrochloric acid. 20 Q. Okay. If you just heated PCBs say in an 21 oven -- and I know that PCBs are designed to 22 withstand heat, to contain heat -- what would happen 23 to them, anything? 24 A. Depending upon the temperature. If you 25 stay below this four hundred degree number all you ---------------------------------CTrATTtrN REPORTING COMPANY , LTD.------------------------------- ( 314~T~727-6503 ------------ WATER PCB-SD0000060567 J33 1 will have there is a container of hot PCBs. Once 2 you approach this higher temperature you're going to 3 find a more intense vaporization so you can -- you 4 might even actually see wisps of vapor coming off 5 that container and, of course, at that point the 6 odor will be much more obvious because it is 7 8 Q. Okay, Now, I'm going to ask you a 9 question, and it may sound kind of silly but I just 10 want you to bear with me. 11 If I took a canister out of a 12 transformer that had either askarel or PCB 13 contaminated oil in it and let's say I heated it so 14 that whatever moisture and residue was in the 15 canister appeared to evaporate to me, not being a 16 scientist, and then I took it out of the oven and 17 say I left it outside and it rained, would it - 18 would it be fair to say that there would be PCBs 19 left in the bottom and these PCBs would be absorbed 20 by the rainfall and go wherever the rainfall took . 21 them? 22 MR. SMITHS Let me object. 23 MS. ROMAGE s I'm sure you will. 24 MR. SMITH: Lack of foundation and 25 calling for speculation. I think it's a vague ----------------------------------CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD.--------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------( 314) 727-6503---------------------------------------------------WATER PCB-SD0000060568 3 5b 1 question. 2 MS. RUMAGE: He's a scientist and I 3 don't think this is involving speculation. I'm 4 going -- 5 MR. SMITH: Answering your question 6 is whether he's a scientist or not because of a 7 great lack of underlying components. 8 Q. (BY MS. RUMAGE) I just want you to -- 9 you can still answer my question. 10 A. Well, I'll try if I understand it. You 11 mentioned having a canister. 12 Q. Right. 13 A. Of liquid which contains oil and PCBs? 14 Q. Let's say PCB contaminated oil. 15 A, The two are together? 16 Q. Right. 17 A. Picture this. It's a well-blended 18 mixture . 19 Q. It would be a canister from a 20 transformer just like we've been talking about. 21 A . I'm not familiar with the expression 22 canister . 23 Q A can. A container. 24 A. Dipped into the transformer and got some 25 of the liquid, is that what you're describing? C-L-AYTON...REPORTING COMPANY, LTD . ( 314 ) 7 2 7-6 5~0l3------- WATER 357 1 Q . You would have broken the transformer 2 down and you're left with nothing but the container 3 which holds the fluid. 4 A . Yes. 5 Q. And you took that container and you 6 heated it . 7 A. All right. You heated it, okay. 8 Q . And let's say you were left with a 9 residue, what a layman would consider to be a 1 0 residue, at the bottom 11 A. Tarry kind of material? 12 Q. I'm sorry? 13 A. Residue, is it tarry or is it whatever 14 is left after heating? 15 Q. Whatever is left after heating. 16 MR. SMITHS May I have a continuing 17 objection to the vagueness and lack of foundation 18 for this witness as the witness and counsel grope 19 for the issue? 20 MS. RUMAGEs Your continuing 21 objection is noted, but I think you know exactly 22 what I'm talking about and -23 MR. SMITH: I assure you I don't. 24 MS. RDMAGEs Fine. 25 A. As I understand it now we have the ---------------------------------efr&YTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD.--------------->-------- (314) 727-6503 --------- WATER 358 1 original transformer body, the case. 2 Q. (BY MS. RDMAGE) Right. 3 A. And then it is a liquid that is still 4 there after previous heating. Now I don't know what 5 kind of heating we're talking about here. Is it two 6 hundred degrees, is it the temperature of boiling 7 water or is it above that? 8 Q. Whatever it is it would be less than -9 it would be far less than an incinerator. The 10 purpose of heating would just be to evaporate 11 moisture off the unit. 12 A. To drive off water? 13 Q. Right. 14 A. All right. So we're sitting here now 15 with the oil or a liquid from which water vapor has 16 been removed. Your question? 17 Q. If you took that can and placed it 18 outside in the rain and the rain fell into the can. 19 A. Okay. 20 Q. Let's take.one question first. Would 21 the PCBs left in that can combine with rainwater? 22 MR. GRANOFF; Well, I'm just going 23 to object. It is pure, rank speculation. You've 24 got atmospheric conditions that can't be all taken 25 into consideration, so note my objection. ---------------------------------CtrATTO-N REPORTING COMPANY, LTD.--------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------(314) 727-6503---------------------------------------------------WATER PCB-SD0000060571 35y 1 MS. RUMAGE: Fine. 2 A. The amount of water is very important in 3 this illustration. If it's just a little bit of 4 water the chances are that that body of liquid may 5 well have absorbed it and you can't see two layers. 6 I'm talking about a little bit. If there's much 7 more water the water will tend to layer out. If the 8 main body of the original liquid is oil based, the 9 water will go to the bottom. If the main body of 10 that liquid is PCB based, the water will stay on 11 top. 12 With time or with agitation to speed up 13 the time required, some of the PCBs and I would 14 suggest other chemicals that are present in that oil 15 will find their way into the water layer, but PCBs 16 are not highly soluble so the amount there will be 17 extreme 1y 1ow. 18 Does that help? 19 MR. GRANOFFi Move to strike. With 20 all due respect, Mr. Papageorge, we're just talking 21 in a vacuum here and we really have no basis for any 22 of the response to that question. 23 MR. SMITH? Join. 24 Q. (BY MS. RUMAGE) Although you yourself 25 have testified that you never visited Florida Power & CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. ----------------------(314) 727-6503------------------WATER PCB-SD000006057; 360 1 Light, did any of your field representatives visit 2 Florida Power & Light to your knowledge? 3 A . Not to my knowledge. 4 Q . Did you undertake while you were at 5 Monsanto or were you aware of any studies that 6 others might have undertaken at Monsanto regarding 7 using PCB contaminated mineral oil in askarel 8 transformers? 9 A . I'm not aware of any such studies. 10 Q. Did you ever hear that that was done by 11 people who owned transformers? 12 A . I have not. 13 Q. When you first became aware of the 14 problem of contamination of mineral oil, did there 15 ever come a time when you or anybody at Monsanto 16 thought that PCBs because they were heavier might be 17 that it might be possible to filter PCBs out of 18 contaminated mineral oil say through a paper filter? 19 MR. SMITH; Objection to the 20 portion calling for what other people thought. 21 Q. (BY MS. RUMAGE) Any other scientist at 22 Monsanto. Was that ever tried? 23 A. Well, the statement you made about PCBs 24 being heavier, yes, they are heavier but with oil 25 they are perfectly miscible. So there is no .................................... CLA YTON --REPORTING~COMPANY ,--Lift;--------------------- (314) 727-6503 = WATER PCB-SDOC -J b i 1 settling out in oil as distinguished from water and 2 PCBs . 3 Q. So is it fair to say that if you tried 4 to -- if you poured PCB -- if you poured PCB 5 contaminated oil through a paper filter that the 6 PCBs would just go straight through the - 7 A. -- Wherever the oil goes PCBs will go. 8 Q. Okay. And I apologize if you've already 9 answered this question; I just wanted to be certain 1 0 as to the point in time. What year did you first 11 become aware of mineral oil contamination by PCB 12 problems with transformers? 13 A. I don't know that I can point to a 14 specific year. Sometime during the period between '65 15 and *70 when I was close to the PCB/askarel 16 manufacture and shipping and exposed to the 17 marketing and end use of PCBs in electrical 18 equipment. I was made aware of the potential for 19 mineral oil and PCBs being mixed, but at that point 20 in time in the context of mineral oil affecting the 21 fire resistance of an askarel transformer, the 22 concern was oriented to a different kind of 23 problem. That was ray first awareness of the 24 potential for mixing and the negative effects of 25 such mixing. CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000060574 362 1 Q. Okay. My notes indicate that yesterday 2 you stated to the effect that it was recognized as 3 being an industry-wide problem, the industry was 4 familiar with the problem of mineral oil 5 contamination. Can you tell me when you came to 6 that conclusion, what year? 7 MR. SMITHi I object to the form of 8 the question insofar as it's not clear what industry 9 problem you're dealing with. 10 Q. (BY MS. RUMAGE) The electric industry, 11 the utility industry. 12 MR. SMITH: Which one? Same 13 objection. Also as to competency. 14 Q. (BY MS. RUMAGE) You can still answer. 15 As to your own personal knowledge. 16 A. The problem of mineral oil mixed with 17 PCB-type transformer oils was known to the industry 18 in terms in the early years beginning in the '30s, 19 '40s, '50s and on and well-known in the industry as 20 to the negative effect on the performance of the 21 equipment. The problem of such a mixture as it 22 relates to environmental concerns came to a head in 23 my -- as far as I was concerned in the early '70s 24 when the PCB environmental issue arose and was 25 reemphasized when the Transformer Working Committee CLAY TtiN'~RE~PfrR TIN G COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD000006057f 363 1 addressed this particular item in preparing the ANSI 2 standards. 3 Q. All right. Now, I just want to go back 4 to the indemnification agreement. I know you've 5 been questioned extensively about that. I just have 6 a couple questions for you. 7 Could you tell me what year that letter 8 was first drafted? 9 MR. DAVIDSON: If you know. 10 A. I saw a draft which I cannot tell you 11 was the first draft, but I saw a draft in late 12 December of 1971. 13 Q. (BY MS. RUMAGE) Okay. You testified 14 that in your opinion Monsanto's concern for the 15 environment had a lot to do with the drafting of 16 that letter. My question is was there any specific 17 incident that caused that letter to be drafted to 18 your knowledge? 19 A. Not to my knowledge, no, 20 Q. Was -- I just have to ask, were there 21 any specific incidents or series of incidents that 22 caused that letter to be drafted? 23 A. Not to my knowledge. 24 Q. Okay. You mentioned that there were 25 problems in Pittsfield in the '30s and '40s. Were CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 = WATER PCB-SD000006057( Jb4 1 there any problems in Pittsfield that came to your 2 attention with PCB contamination from 1970 to the 3 drafting of this letter? 4 A, No, not that I know of. 5 Q. Okay. Are you familiar with what in the 6 industry is called the Yushow incident? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Could you tell me what year that 9 incident occurred? 10 A. 1968. 11 Q. Can you tell me what happened to your 12 knowledge? 13 A. As I understand it, in Japan there was a 14 distillation unit for distilling oil extracted from 15 rice bran to be used as a cooking and salad oil. 16 This distillation was brought about by using a heat 17 transfer system which used a PCB as a source of 18 heat. There was a leak that developed in the system 19 so the PCBs got into the rice bran oil. That oil 20 was sold to the general public and those individuals 21 who consumed the oil, either in their -- their food, 22 developed various health symptoms. 23 Q. What type of health symptoms? 24 A. There was the typical nauseas, the skin 25 eruptions, the disease called chloracne. There were -CLAYTON--REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000060577 365 1 reported some infants were born with a pigmentation, 2 a darker color, which I am told cleared up in a few 3 months . 4 Q. Do you know whether there were any 5 follow-up studies done on the people who had adverse 6 health problems? 7 A. It's my understanding that there were 8 extensive follow ups, that they're still being 9 observed. 10 Q. Okay. To your knowledge -- When did you 11 come to know of the Yushow incident? 12 A. When I reported in 1970 for my new 13 assignment . 14 Q. Okay, Did that have any effect on your 15 opinion as to the -- as to the effects of PCBs in 16 the environment, whether or not they might be more 17 harmful than you originally thought? 18 A, Well, it certainly raised some questions 19 regarding what made these individuals sick. It's my 20 understanding that since then it's been determined 21 that there were other contaminants in that oil that 22 caused the illnesses, not PCBs. 23 Q, Okay. You mentioned before there was a 24 fish meal contamination? 25 A. Yes . ---------------------------CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY,--LTD .-------------------------------- (314) 727-6503 -------- WATER PCB-SD0000060578 3b6 1 ' '1 2 .J 3 Q. Could you tell me what year that was? A . 1970 . Q. Did that have anything to do with Holly 4 Farms ? 5 A. Yes . 6 Q. Could you tell me briefly what role 7 Holly Farms played? 8 MR. DAVIDSON: Let me object. I'm 9 a little confused as to what issue in your lawsuit 10 you're questioning him about now. 11 MR. GRANOFF: Join. 12 MR. DAVIDSON: What relevance it 13 has. I'll make that objection for what it's worth. 14 MR. GRANOFF: Or materiality. 15 MR. DAVIDSON: We've been pretty 16 far afield with a number of questioners, and I don't 17 mean to be jumping on you, Sarah, 18 MS. RUMAGE: I'll be glad to tell 19 you where I'm going. 20 MR. DAVIDSON: With what Monsanto 21 did and when, which I don't see as relevant to this 22 examination. 23 MS. RUMAGE: I'd just like to note 24 for the record I feel I'm being put under some time 25 pressure here because people have announced they ---------------------------CtiAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD.------------------------(314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000060579 367 1 have flights to take out. 2 I have a few more questions and I will 3 tell you exactly where I'm going with these 4 questions. It has to do with the 1971 5 indemnification letter and I asked if there were any 6 incidents that might have precipitated the need at 7 Monsanto to prepare such a letter and send it out to 8 customers and I'm going to ask you about incidents 9 that I think might have some bearing on whoever was 10 making decisions at Monsanto, Mr. Papageorge 11 included, as to why that letter was written. 12 MR. DAVIDSONs He answered your 13 question saying no as to the best of his knowledge. 14 MS. RUMAGE; Fine. But he is aware 15 of these incidents so I'm going -16 MR. DAVIDSON: So are we all. 17 MS. RUMAGE: Fine. 18 Q. (BY MS. RUMAGE) Can you answer my 19 question? 20 A. I forget the question. 21 Q. Just briefly how was Holly Farms 22 affected? 23 A. Holly Farms is in the poultry and egg 24 business, They had purchased poultry feed which 25 contained contaminated fish meal. They observed CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD . ( 314 ) 727-6503 ____ WATER JDS 1 that some of their flocks were laying eggs that 2 weren't hatching. I recall that as one of the 3 symptoms. They traced that back to the feed and to 4 eventually the presence of PCBs, which was 5 eventually traced back to this heat exchange system. 6 Q. Do you happen to know if any lawsuits 7 arose out of any of these incidents against 8 Monsanto? 9 A. Holly Farms filed a lawsuit against 10 Monsanto , yes. 11 Q. Do you know of any other incidents that 12 resulted in lawsuits prior to the drafting of this 13 letter in or about 1971? 14 A. Lawsuits prior to '71? 15 Q. Against Monsanto involving PCB 16 contamination. 17 A. I don't remember any lawsuits filed 18 before the indemnity agreement was designed. 19 MR. DAVIDSON: Other than Holly 20 Farms . 21 A. Holly Farms is the only one. 22 MS. RUMAGEs I have no further 23 questions . Thank you. 24 MR. GRANOFF t I have one or two 25 questions. GLAYTON REPOR-TING COMPANY, LTD. _ (314) 727-650 3------- WATER 369 1 MS. BERKOWITZ: I have about two 2 questions after that. 3 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 4 BY MR. GRANOFF; 5 Q. You identified that you appeared before 6 the Studds subcommittee in Washington? 7 A. Yes, 8 Q. Do you recall members of any utility 9 industry or manufacturing industry which also made 10 presentations before the Studds subcommittee? 11 A. I recall one. This was the -- a 12 committee that was formed to work on PCB matters 13 under the auspices of the EIA. I think that's the 14 Edison Institute or Electrical Institute of 15 America. Anyway, represents -16 Q. EEI? 17 A. No, EIA. 18 MR. SMITH t Could it be the 19 Electronics Industry? 20 A. Electronics Industry Association, that's 21 right. This is an industry group that represents 22 manufacturers of electronic equipment, television 23 sets being one example. 24 Q, (BY MR. GRANOFF) Do you recollect the 25 name of W. Samuel Tucker as a participant before the CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY ,--LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000060582 370 1 Studds subcommittee? J2 A. W. Samuel Tucker. No, that doesn't ring 3 a bell. 4 Q. Does the name W. S. or Samuel Tucker, 5 can you relate that name to a Florida Power & Light 6 representative who in the past has given testimony 7 to the Studds subcommittee, the same one that you 8 testified in front of? 9 A. I just don't recall that one. 10 MR. GRANOFF; Okay. Thank you. 11 RECROSS-EXAMINATION 12 BY MS. BERKOWITZ: 13 Q. Three very quick questions. 14 Mr. Papageorge, at the time you found 15 out, you personally found out, that mineral oil was 16 contaminated with PCBs did you share that 17 information with anyone at Monsanto? 18 A. I discussed the matter with individuals 19 in Monsanto but it turns out they knew about it - 20 more about it than I did. 21 Q. Who did you discuss the matter with? 22 A. Mr. Paul Benignus, Dr. Ralph Munch, Dr. 23 Bill Richard in research. 24 Q. Who is Dr. Ra1ph Munch? 2 5 A. M-u-e-n-c-h. M-u-n-c-h, I'm sorry. --------------------------CTrArYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD.------------------------(314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000060583 371 1 Q. And who is he? 2 A. He was a research chemist in Monsanto. 3 Q. Okay. Did you ever discuss this with 4 anyone else at Monsanto? 5 A. I believe that's it, those three. 6 Q. Who was your superior, who was directly 7 above you, your supervisor or the person that you 8 reported to at Monsanto? 9 A. At what point in time? 10 Q. When you first found out about the PCB 11 contamination problem. 12 A. Mr. Howard Bergen. 13 Q. What was his title? 14 A. He's group director, functional fluids 15 group. I'm sorry, business director, functional 16 fluids group. 17 Q. And did you report this information to 18 him at the time you found out? 19 A. I mentioned it to him but he knew about 20 it. 21 Q. And who was his direct supervisor 22 directly above him? 23 A. Mr. John Mason. 24 Q. And what was his title? 25 A. Assistant general manager, organic trCrAYTtm REPORTING COMPANY, LTD v (314) 727-6503------WATER 372 1 chemicals division. 2 Q. And do you know if Mr. Bergen told Mr. 3 Mason? 4 A. I do not . 5 Q. Did you tell Mr. Mason? 6 A. Did I tell Mr. Mason? 7 Q. Did you share that information with Mr. 8 Mason? 9 A, I don't think I did, no. 10 Q. Did you share this information 11 concerning the PCB contamination of mineral oil with 12 anyone in the electric utility industry either 13 formally by letter or informally? 14 A. No. 15 Q. And to your knowledge what was the 16 approximate extent of the PCB contamination of 17 mineral oil at the time you found out about this 18 problem? 19 A. Oh, I have no way of knowing. 20 Q. Was it a prevalent occurrence? 21 A. No, it was considered a -- as I 22 perceived, it was considered as a potential for 23 occurring that didn't happen often but it could happen; 24 therefore, the industry should be sensitive to it. 25 MS. BERKOWITZ: Okay. Thank you ---------------------------CfrA^TON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD.-------------------------------- (314) 727-6503 = WATER PCB-SD0000060585 373 1 very much. 2 (Witness excused.) 3 4 IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED BETWEEN COUNSEL THAT THE DEPOSITION MAY BE SIGNED 5 BEFORE ANY NOTARY PUBLIC. 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CtrAYTOl^ RE PORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB- 374 ORIGINAL 1 I, WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE, do 2 hereby state that I have read the foregoing 3 questions and answers appearing in this transcript 4 of my deposition. Volume II, Page 181 through and 5 including Page 373; that this is a true and accurate 6 (corrected) report of said answers given in response 7 to the questions appearing herein. 8 9 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 10 CERTIFICATE 11 STATE OF MISSOORI ) 12 ) SS COUNTY OF ST. LOUIS ) 13 14 Before me personally appeared 15 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE to me known to be the person 16 described in and who executed the foregoing 17 instrument and acknowledged to and before me that he 18 executed the said instrument in the capacity and for 19 the purpose therein expressed. 20 WITNESS my hand and official 21 seal this /day of C&) dJLj_____, 1990 . 22 23 JOSEPHINE S. NiBLOCK 24 Noeaiy PuWte S* of Mtewuil St Louis County 25 My Commission Expires: IOTARY PUBLIC WATER PCB- 375 1 NOTARIAL CERTIFICATE 2 STATE OF MISSOURI ) SS 3 COUNTY OF ST. LOUIS ) 4 I, JUNE M o FUNKHOUSER, a 5 Registered Professional Reporter and Notary Public 6 in and for the County of St. Louis, State of 7 Missouri, duly commissioned, qualified and 8 authorized to administer oaths and to take and 9 certify depositions, do certify that pursuant to 10 Notice in the civil cause now pending and 11 undetermined in the United States District Court, 12 Southern District of Florida, entitled UNITED STATES 13 OF AMERICA vs. PEPPER'S STEEL AND ALLOYS, INC., 1 4 FLORIDA POWER & LIGHT COMPANY, NORTON BLOOM, THOMAS 15 A. CURTIS, WILLIAM PAYNE, FLORA B. PAYNE and LOWELL 16 PAYNE; PEPPER'S STEEL AND ALLOYS, INC. and NORTON 1 7 BLOOM vs. FLORIDA POWER & LIGHT COMPANY; FLORIDA 18 POWER & LIGHT COMPANY vs. PEPPER'S STEEL AND ALLOYS, 19 INC., et al. and UNITED STATES FIDELITY AND GUARANTY 20 COMPANY, et al. was attended at the Adam's Mark 21 Hotel, 4th & Chestnut Streets, Suite 855, in the 22 City of St. Louis, State of Missouri, on the 22nd 23 day of February, 1990. 24 Keith , Mack, Lewis, Allison & 25 Cohen, 111 N.E. First Street, Suite 500, Miami, CLAYTON REPORTT-NG COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000060586 376 1 Florida, attorneys for Pepper's and Bloom, by Mr. 2 Loren S. Granoff. 3 Peterson & Bernard, 707 4 Southeast Third Avenue, P.O. Drawer 14126, Fort 5 Lauderdale, Florida, attorneys for Pepper's and 6 Bloom, by Mr. Donald J. Fann. 7 Coll, Davidson, Carter, Smith, 8 Salter & Barkett, P.A., 3200 Miami Center, 100 9 Chopin Plaza, Miami, Florida, attorneys for Florida 10 Power & Light Company, by Mr. Richard C. Smith. 11 Baker & McKenzie, 701 Brickell 12 Avenue, No. 1600, Miami, Florida, attorneys for Home 13 Insurance Company, by Mr. Landon K. dayman. 14 Thornton, David, Murray, Richard 15 & Davis, P.A., 2950 S.W. 27th Avenue, Suite 100, 16 Miami Florida, attorneys for Home Insurance Company, 17 by Ms. Sheryl E. Berkowitz, 18 Rivkin, Radler, Dunne & Bayh, 19 EAB Plaza, Uniondale, New York, attorneys for USF&G, 20 by Ms. Sarah A. Rumage. 21 Mendes & Mount, Three Park 22 Avenue, New York, New York, attorneys for Lloyds, by 23 Ms, Elizabeth A. Nelson. 24 Smith, Helms, Mulliss & Moore, 25 300 N. Greene Street, Suite 1400, P.O. Box 21927, -----------------------------CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD.--------------------------------- (314)727-6503 -- WATER PCB-SD0000060589 377 1 Greensboro, North Carolina, attorneys for the 2 deponent and Monsanto Company, by Mr. Gerard H. 3 Davidson . 4 The witness, WILLIAM B. 5 PAPAGEORGE, being of sound mind, came before me, was 6 duly sworn to testify the truth, the whole truth and 7 nothing but the truth in the case aforesaid, 8 thereupon testified as is shown in the foregoing 9 transcript, said testimony being by me reported in 10 stenotypy and caused to be transcribed into 11 typewriting under my supervision; that the foregoing 12 pages correctly set forth the testimony of the 13 aforementioned witness, WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE, 14 together with the questions propounded by counsel , 15 and remarks and objections of counsel thereto, and 16 is in all respects a full, true, correct, and 17 complete transcript of the questions propounded to 18 and the answers given by said witness; that the said 19 testimony, so transcribed, was subscribed to by him 20 in the _ of , State of 21 Missouri, on the ________ day of , 1990 . 22 I further certify that I am not 23 of counsel nor attorney for either of the parties to 24 said suit, nor related to, nor interested in any of 25 the parties or their attorneys. CLAY TtTN RTS'P'QR TIN G COMPANY, LTD. ( 314) 7 2 7 -6 5~0~3~ WATER PCB-SD000006059( 3 78 1 WITNESS my hand and notarial 2 seal at St. Louis, Missouri, this _ day of 3 , 1990 . 4 My Commission Expires: June 24, 1991. 5 6 7 REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTER and 8 NOTARY PUBLIC in and for the County of St. Louis, State of Missouri. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CLAYTON REPORTING..COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 = WATER PCB-SD000006059 DEPOSITION CORRECTION SHEET WATER PCB-SD0000060592