Document KzzZ7dny22wNJQ1y07BkkXY2Q

FILE NAME Rheem RHM DATE 1942 Dec DOC RHM001 DOCUMENT DESCRIPTION Minutes Before the US Maritime Commission - Meeting in Regard to Minimum Requirements for Industrial Health & Safety in Shipyards STATES STATES MARITIME MARITIME MARITIME MARITIME MARITIME COMMISSION COMMISSION a am ow . REQUIREMENTSREREQQUIREMUNTSIREMENTS FOR SAFETYSAFETY IN IN ChicagCo hicago December 7 8 ee Ue oo aaa7, Dae at a2) FISHER , AND ASSOCIATES Fa OFFICIAL REPORTERS M 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 INDEX INDEX INDEX INDEX INDEX . Remarks of Chairman Ring Address by Philip Drinker Address by Lt. Comdr D. E. Carlson Address by Dr. Hedwig 8. Kuhn Address by Mr. John Roche Address by Mr. Jack Wolff Address by Mr. Max Kassoris Discussion of Minimum Standards for Control of Health Address by Ensign K. W. Nelson Address by Ensign Morwick Ross and Demonstration of Welding Address by Ensign John F. Ege Jr. Joint Meeting of Safety Men and Physicians Address by Dr. Hedwig Kuhn Resolution of Dr. Rieke's Committee Adoption of Medical Standards Adoption of Safety Standards Discussion of Women's Clothes for Use in Shipyards Address by Mr. Jack Wolff on Job Instruction Training Page 21 25 43 55 60 105 114 126 249 256 274 293 300 304 323 leCon UNITED STATES MARITIME COMMISSION AND UNITED STATES NAVY t 8 1 i t q i 1 { 1 t i i t | x e8 80.0 MEETING IN REGARD TO MINIMUM REQUIREMENTS FOR INDUSTRIAL * 06 HEALTH AND SAFETY IN SHIPYARDS e060 ee --------------------- ------------- - ---------- X The first session of the Shipbuilding Health and Safety 10 Section of the United States Navy and United States Maritime 11 Commission held in the Century Room Hotel LaSalle Chicago 12 Illinois on Monday December 7 1942 convened at 10 o'clock 13 a.m. Mr. Daniel S. Ring Chief Shipyards Labor Relations 14 : United States Maritime Commission presiding | 16 a _2 = 17 18 19 d.~ & APPEARANCES | ADAMS CHAS C. M. D. Industrial Physician McCloskey & Company Hookers Point Shipyard Tampa Florida and ! Houston Texas *. ANDERSON ANDERSON Welfare - CHAS Western Pipe Safety Engineer and Steel Co. Industrial BARRINGTON A. R. American Optical Co. 10 S. Wabash Avenue Chicago Illinois BARRON Andrew E. Employers Group Insurance Co. Safety Engineer 175 W. Jackson Blvd. Chicago Illinois BECK Lester F. Chief Navy Insurance Division ~fl Office of Procurement & Material Washington D. C. 9 10 ASOCITES 11 12 AND 13 FISHER E. 14 ETHEL 16 17 18 v BEHLEY R. J. Engineer Travelers Insurance Company BERNO Harry L. Major U. S. Maritime Commission Philadelphia Pa J. D. C. A. Jones Construction Company BETHNER . Wainwright Ship Yard Panama City Florida | BEERBOWER Dumont Divisions of Public Relations U. S. Maritime Commission Washington D. C. | BROWN Joseph Company 1329 Illinois E. District Ins Exch Engineer Hartford Acc & Ind 175 W. Jackson Blvd. Chicago BURTON Otto L. Navy Department Lt. Comdr MC USN Bureau Med . & Surg 19 BUTTERWORTH Glenn T. US Fidelity & Guaranty Co. | Field Safety Director 170 W. Jackson Blvd. Chicago 20 Illinois 21 CARLSON D. E. Lt. Comdr USN Navy Department Washington D. C. CARROLL F. F. Pennsylvania Shipyard Beaumont Texas 23 . CHARLTON Donald Willson Products Inc. Reading Pa 24 CLARK R. R. Pennsylvania Shipyards Beaumont Texas 25 ) CALLAHAN Daniel F. Employers Group Safety Eng B ASOCITES 11 12 AND 13 FISHER E. 14 ETHEL 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 23 24 25 // COLLINS Charlie Brunswick Marine Const Corp. Ship- building Boilermaker Foreman Brunswick Georgia Co. COLLINS Walter S. Delta Shipbuilding Inc. Chairman Plant Labor Management Coma 1515 Verna Street| - New Orleans La oo - on CONLON Walter J. St. John's River Shipbuilding Co. Jacksonville Fla COOK Warren A. National Conservation Bur and Zurich Ins Co. 135 South LaSalle St. Chicago Illinois CORD Insp Albert Wm Aetna Cas & Surety Ins Co. & Eng Dept. 120 S. LaSalle St. Chicago Chicago Illinois CROFT Theo G. Dr. St. John's River Shipbuilding Co. Jacksonville Fla CURRIN George E. National Safety Council Publicity * 20 N. Wacker Dr. Chicago Illinois DALZELL W. C. Asst Gen. Supt Delta Shipbuilding ct Company DANIELS J. W. U. S. Fidelity and Guaranty Co. Div Safety Rep 166 W. Jackson Blvd. Chicago Illinois DEKKER Tunis H. Army Ordnance Safety & SecurityChicago Branch Safety Engr 333 N. Michigan Avenue Chicago ; Illinois DESJARDENS Washington Henry G. D. C. Safety Engineer , Navy Department , DOLAN G. T. Walter Butler Shipbuilders Inc. Administra tion Mgr DOUGHTY H. R. K & S Restaurants Groton Connecticut Electric Boat Co. ' DRINKER Phillip Dr. Department of Industrial Hygiene School of Public Health Harvard U. Boston Mass / EGE John F. Jr. Ensign 55 Shatuck St. Boston Mass ELSBY Chas H. Safety Engineer Employers Mutual Liability Ins Co. of Wisconsin 1200 Empire Building : Milwaukee Wisconsin 1 1 1 EWERTZ G. Safety Engineer Manitowoc Shipbuilding , Co. Manitowoc Wisconsin 2; . XFAIL A. M. Alabama Dry D. & Ship Co. Mobile Alabama _ FLUKER Dr. C. B. Wainwright Shipyard Panama City 4 Florida The Travelers ; 5 FRAZIER Hal C. Safety Engineer Houston Shipbuilding 6 Corporation Houston Texas Kaiser Shipyards GARFIELD S. R. Dr. Richmond 7 Co. Vancouver ~ S GILES William P. Dr. Rheem Mfg Co. Providence Rhode Island 5 10 ASOCIATES | 11 ASOCIATES AND 12 FISHER 13 FISHER FISHER 14 ETHEL ETHEL ~ ETHEL 16 17 WGOLDSTINE Edgar N. California Shipbuilding Corporation GRAHAM S. D. Delta Shipbuilding Co. 1308 Short Street New Orleans La Safety Director abe Capt GRAHAM Walter K. US Maritime Commission Regional Industrial Advisor New Orleans La GRAY R. D. V. President Walter Butler Shipbuilders Inc. Exec . GREENLEE H. R. Captain Houston Shipbuilding Corporation HAAS Toxey D. M. D. Ala Dry Dock & S. B. Co. Mobile Alabama HAGEMANN IRVIN L. Tampa Shipbuilding Co. Tampa Fla 18 19 | 20 21 21 HARMON J. G. Labor Management Corp. Savannah Ga Southeastern Shipbuilding | HAYDEN J. M. Moore Dry Docking Co. Asst Supt Elec Dept. mk 22 A. C. Labor Coordinator Ore Shipbuilding Corp. HOLMSKOG Employers Liability HOLMSKOG Otto S. Senior Construction Engineer 23 23 Mutuals Ins Co. of Wis Milwaukee Wisconsin 24 HURLESS V. V. Employers Liability Ass Corp. Safety 25 Engineer 175 W. Jackson Blvd. Chicago Illinois  10 ASOCITE 11 12 AND 13 FISHER E 14 ETHEL ... " HUTCHINSON A. St. Johns River Shipbuilding Co. Jacksonville Fla { | | Corp. { JONES I. G. Safety Engineer Southeastern Shipbuilding| Savannah Ga | / JONES J. Wm Jr. Electric Boat Co. Groton Conn JONSON Rheem Mfg Co. Providence Rhode Island JOHNSON Franklyn W. Oregon Shipbuilding Corporation Portland Oregon and Kaiser Co. Inc. Safety Engineer KAYE Dave Kaiser Co. Inc. Richmond Calif chmond Shipyard 3 KEEFER W. Dean Lumbermen's Mutual Sheridan Rd Chicago Illinois Cas Co. 4750 KENDALL Carter Bethlehem Steel Co. Bethlehem Pa Safety Engineer KOSSORIS M. D. U. S. Bureau of Labor Statistics Rimbach KUHN , 112 Hedwig Dr. Nat Society Prevention Blindness Ave. Hammond Indiana LAMIE A. J. Supt Engineering Dept. Pacific IndemnityIndemnity Co. 621 S. Hope St. Los Angeles California Safety LESTER D. R. Great Lakes Eng Works 1330 S. LaSalle Chicago Director | LOCKE Thomas L. New Eng Div Mgr Eng Dept. American Mutual Liability Ins Co. 142 Berkeley Boston Mass St. McCOY D. Research A. M. D. Liberty Mutual Industrial Div Boston Ins Co. Mass Medical McKee C. S. M. D. 175 W. Jackson Travelers Ins Co. | Chicago MARTIN A. L. Safety Engr Employers Mutual Wansan Sheboygan Wisconsin MATHEWSON J. H. Safety Engineer Council Chicago Illinois National Safety ASOCITES AND FISHER B. ETHEL 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MAYHEW Clarence Marin Ship Calif Labor Management Hygienist MEHAFFEY C. H. Industrial Appliances Pittsburgh Pa - Mine Safety > Tks. 2 MERRETT Mobile Alabama A. R. Gulf Shipbuilding Ave. MILLER Lawrence C. Safety Director California / Shipbuilding Corporation . | fee. MOURE Robert S. Hoboken Dry Docks HobokeNn. J. MOREYC. T. Rheem Mfg Co. Providence Rhode Island MULLIN David P. South Portland NEILSON A. S. St. John's River Jacksonville Fla Shipbuilding Shipbuilding Corporation Co. { NELSON K. W. Ensign U.S.N.R. 55 Shattuck St. Boston Massachusetts NORTON Jack Rheems Mfg Co. Providence R. I. _ Labor A.F.L. O'CON EL O'CONNELL John F. Marine Ship Corporation Labor : _, Coordination / OLDS Harvey Richmond Shipyards Ch Labor - Management Comm . OWENS R. W. Representing C. W. Eliason Regional Construction Office Oakland California PACKARDH. E. Los Angeles Shipbuilding & Drydock Corporation PARTENHEIMER PARTENHEIMER C. A. American Optical Company PEARE Eugene S. Adjuster Aetna Cas & Sur Co. POLSEY Consol Western C. W. M. D. Med Director Pacific Indemnity Co. Steel Ship Bldg Los Angeles Ship Bldg Pipe & Steel Shipbuilding Dir PRICE B. Joseph M. D. building Corp. Mobile Medical Director Alabama Gulf Ship- F e . .. RELLER / Louis S. The Ingalls Shipbuilding Corp. Pascagoula Miss Asst toExecutive Vice Pres RIEKE F. E. Dr. Med Dir Oregon Shipbuilding . Corporation Portland Oregon REIN W. J. Dr. Delta Shipbuilding Co. Phys Charge or 1st Aid Station 3613 Napolian Ave. New Orleans La RING Daniel S. Director Shipyard Labor Relations U. Maritime Commission Washington D. C. _, ROCHE John M. Safety Consultant U. S. Maritime Commission ROSSMorwick Ensign 55 Shattuck St. Boston Mass 10 SCHMOHL George F. Alabama Dry Dock & Shipbuilding Co. Mobile Alabama ASOCITE 11 12 , SCHNAKENBERG George Todds Erie Basin Dry Docks Brooklyn N. Y. FISHER s AND 13 SECREST Fred M. Personnel Dir American Ship Building a Co. E 14 ETHEL 15 , SELF Thos R. Asst Dir Eve Mgr American Mutual Liability Cas Co. Atlanta Georgia 16 SESSIONS H. K. Lieut Com'a'r MC U. S. Navy Med . Officer for Industrial Hygiene & Medicine Norfolk 17 Navy Yards Portsmouth Virginia 18 SEYMOOR W. H. Liberty Mutual Insurance Co. Boston Mass V. P. Chief Eng Safety Eng Dept. 19 SIBLEY H. W. Ingall Shipbuilding Co. Pascagoula 20 Miss Labor Management Comm Representing Labor A.F.L. A.F.L. SINNOTT Edmund T. 90 St. John St. New York City C. R. Black Jr. Corp. Todd Shipyards Inc. SMITH Herbert A. Johnson Dry Docks New Orleans 23 La Safety Eng 24 SMITH Earle Gulf Shipbuilding Corporation 25 1 SMITH S. T. Consolidated Steel Corporation Los Angeles Calif Safety Dir So - . G -1 || 2 seven er 3 4] 5 6 7 S y 10 ASSOCIATES ASOCIATES 11 ASOCIATES 12 AND !! !! 13 FISHER 14 ETHEL 4 ETHEL 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 hie a 22 23 24 25 | SNIDER Baron D. Marine Ship Corp. Sanalito Calif SPENCER Dr. L. C. Med Dir Southeastern Ship Building Corporation Mac EvoyShip Building Corp. Savannah Ga SPOFFORD W. E. Regional Dir Michigan Chicago Illinois Const 310 South . STERLING Co. | L. M. Adjuster Travelers Ins Insurance Ex Bldg Chicago Illinois . 453 . STRIPLING V. C. Ala Dry Dock & Ship Bldg Corp. Safety Dir . ; SWART Harmon Food - Crafts Connecticut V. Vice Serving Pres K Electric & S Rest Boat Co. oe - Industrial New London . TALLMAN Wm . Hookers Paint Texas H. Safety Shipyard Dir Mc Closkey & Tampa Florida and | Company Houston TELLER Jr. W. R. Lt. Cmdr U. S. N. District Industrial Relations Officer 106 Administration Building Great Lakes Ill . TERRY Jr. Wallace I. Moore Dry Dock Co. Oakland California Director of Safety WAKEMAN J. R. Asst to Corp. Savannah Ga Pres Southwestern Shipbuilding WALL Jr. W. W. Safety Eng Brunswick Marine Const Corp. Brunswick Ga ; WATSON A. L. Chairman Labor Mgnt Comm Richmond Shipyard 1 Kaiser Shipyard . Commission WENZEL Herbert Acting Industrial Advisor Maritime Chicago Illinois WHELAN T. J. Co. Hartford Supervising Const Conn Eng Travelers Ins WHITE E. E. Sun Shipbuilding / Eng - Per Dir . Co. Chester Pa ; Safety j WINFREE E. S. Pennsylvania Shipyards Inc. Beaumont Texas WOLFF Jack Supervisor Shipyard Training Div Shipyard Labor Washington D. Relations C. U. S. Maritime Commission ~ ~ WOODELL Todd Oregon Shipbuilding Corp. Portland ~ Ore Mgr Ins & Safety VAN DOREN W. Wilmington S. California Shipbuilding ShipbuildingCorp. Calif . 7 9 10 ASOCITE 11 12 AND 13 FISHER E. 14 ETHEL 15 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 nroy Be Er Com CHAIRMAN RING Now as we start off I guess we better know who we are My name is Ring I am with the Maritime Commission in charge of the shipyard labor relations and a part of the function of safety and health of the shipyard labor relations programs for contractors of the is that Maritime Commission in the various yards all over the country This conference is being called jointly by the Maritime Commission and the Navy in the interest of promoting standard- to develop at least minimum requirements for the ized programs for the million people who will be in two safety and health year the shipyards after the first of the went forth to all of the contractors in 12 The invitations 13 14 15 16 17 18 shipyards on the Atlantic Coasts and a response has Pacific Great Lakes and Gulf been received which indicates that there will be a far larger attendance here as the day goes on than now We received a number of wires this morn- that trains are late planes have been delayed ing indicating to attend the conference will and that those who are intending 19 20 21 22 23 24 be delayed any longer on account of We are afraid to hold things up those with transportation delays and felt to get anywhere we might as well start now if we were going and let the late- comers pick up as they come in This conference was set on foot after it was realized tremendous strides had that although during the last year XX3e a \ . ~~ At been made with production in the fast and growing expansion 2 || of all of the plants too little attention had been paid to 3 the matters involving the health and safety of the employees 4 || We have had towns and sizable towns that have grown to || 5 double their capacity and to treble their capacity during 6 the last year and we have had yards that have mushroomed out || 7 to such a degree that in the rush and bustle of getting pro- 8 duction going and putting the work in on the million tons of 9 shipping we expect to get in this year that possible the | 10 features of protecting the health of the men who are working 11 in the yards and their safety have not been emphasized on a | 12 standardized basis and on a uniform basis as they should have 13 | been 14 Accordingly the Maritime Commission and the Navy de- || 15 cided that they would have a survey made in which facts would | 16 be gathered whereby we could present to the industry and || 17 those who are principally interested standards for the ob- |18 servation of rules governing the health of men working in the 19 yards and their safety As a result of that the services | 20 of Mr. Drinker who is the head of the Public Health and a 21 group of men from the Bureau of Medicine and Surgery of the 22 Navy were detailed to take a tour in typical yards all over 23 the country to find out what the facts were We felt that 24 before planning on any rules we had better get down to bed 25 rock and know exactly what conditions exist 4e They made this tour and made specific records and re- ports on each yard transmitting the same to the yard for their guidance In addition to that they were at all times collecting data which would be in the nature of a common de- nominator as far as everyone was concerned so that at the conclusion of the tour Mr. Drinker and his associates felt that we would have enough facts at hand to be able to present to the industry through the Maritime Commission and Navy minimum standards as to the requirements for the protection 10 of the health of the men in the yards 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 During this morning Mr. Drinker will present to you those minimum standards for health At the same time Mr. John Roche of the National Safety Council also made a tour of the principal shipyards in the country from the standpoint of safety and he has developed a number of facts which have led him to believe that we can now have a sufficient factual basis to prescribe minimum standards so far as the safety | factors in the yards are concerned In addition to that Mr. Jack Wolf who is in charge of training for the Maritime Commission has also made a number of tours and he has some very decided ideas with respect to the inculcation of the health hazards and the safety perils in the minds of men who are just entering the industry He feels and we all feel that this can be very well made a part of the training program so that as the man walks h in new 5e and green into the industry one of the very first things that he gets along with the training as far as the skill of the craft that he is going to work in is concerned is a knowledge of what he must do and what he must observe to protect his own health and to protect his own safety If you get that to the men when they are just coming in the yard why then you have started right at the foundation to build up a respect for the health and safety program You will notice among other things hanging around here a lot of empty suits which are designed for the use of women coming into industry We all know from recent reports that there is going to be a tremendous influx of women in the in- dustry specialized attention therefore is being given along those lines independent from the line that this conference 15 will proceed upon However we have felt in view of the fact 16 the manufacturers have moved toward the production of clothes 17 which will be safe for women to wear in the industry you might like to see some Accordingly arrangements are being 19 made and our scouts are now out to obtain some human figures 20 of attractive form that can make these empty clothes that are the 21 hanging on the rack a little more delectable so far as eyes are concerned and it is hoped that tomorrow we will be able to present to you a specific demonstration with some of the more attractive types of people in Chicago to be wearing them so that you can see for yourselves exactly how the fea- 6e tures of the clothing will be presented I was at first a little afraid of such a program be- cause it struck me that maybe the wearer of the clothes and their appearance might detract from the concentration on the clothes themselves if we did such a thing However I was overruled and Mr. Roche especially here said You do not expect these fellows who are pretty hard boiled and who have . come from all sections of the country to become very en- thusiastic and pay very much attention to a lot of empty 10 clothes You have to put those clothes over some very at- 11 tractive forms before they will really give their attention 12 to it and accordingly arrangements are being made as I 13 have said to have some sort of a safety clothes model show 14 tomorrow afternoon We will hear more about that later 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 24 24 25 25 Now one of the very serious things that we are con- fronted with is the fumes from welding machines and there will be a demonstration on that for each group one for those of you who are specifically dedicated to the health side of it and one for those who are specifically from the safety department this afternoon The announcements on that will | be made a little later by Mr. Drinker We have asked the yards and the men who are really shouldering this responsibility in the various yards on health and safety to give this matter serious consideration and we do that in order that we will get those who are directly concerned with the problems that are involved I want to welcome all of you here and I want to tell you that I think that this is the first time that the ship building industry on the scope as broad as this has moved directly into cooperation and focused itself and its atten- tion on two very specific problems that they have You want to remember that it was on this day just a year ago that the blow came at Pearl Harbor The thing that left us stunned for a little while the thing that no one ever 10 expected would occur and although we have gone along during 11 the last year striving here and striving there most of us 12 were doing it with our eyes right on the job before us in 13 order to develop things and it is only when you stand today 14 a year from that day and look back over the year that has 15 just passed and realize what a tremendous job that the ship- | 16 yards of the nation have accomplished 17 Our boys the extent of four millions and I imagine 18 that there are very few of us here who has not one who is 19 close to us are out in the uniform ready to protect the 20 things that we hold so dear in this country We are building the ships to take the ammunition and the supplies to the manpower of the nation and it has been restricted and reduced in such a way that we must make sure that the farthest possible use must be made of every one of us who are able to work on the home front 8e With that in view we are dedicating this conference to the purpose of promoting the greatest individual efficiency in shipyards throughout the country Our whole objective is based upon production because everything else is subsidiary to that but we must remember that production in this struggle is something of a range nature This is not going to be a short struggle that we are in as everyone realizes what odds we are up against and if we are going to be in a long drawn out struggle we have got 10 to have men who are physically fit and we have got to keep 11 them physically fit and we have got to keep them from the 12 perils that will impair their productivity 13 I again want to say that you are welcome here I hope 14 that we will have an opportunity to meet each other person- 15 ally and discuss individual problems as we go along but 16 || time with us especially in these days is very short We 17 | hope to wind this conference up tomorrow evening and as for 18 the general program at the present time I think I will just 19 sketch that now First will hear from Mr. Drinker with respect to the minimum standards so far as health is concerned Next you will hear from Mr. John Roche with respect to minimum standards so far as safety is concerned and next you will hear from Mr. Jack Wolf with respect to the training program 9e = 9 1 Then we would welcome a word from the representatives 2 || of the Navy Commander Carlson and Mr. Desjardines and 3 | then I think the time will be ripe to separate for the after- 4 I noon session into two groups where you yourself can study 5 what is being presented to you and find out if in the papers 6 il that have been distributed to you anything is whacky or any- 7 | thing is off the beam and let us all sit down together and work out for ourselves from the wealth of experience and knowledge that we have here along these specialized lines 10 | standards that will be ones of integrity that will be prao- 11 || tical ones that will be ones which will result in a promo- 12 || tion and accumulation of production and when we have done | 13 that all collectively we ought to come together here to- 14 | morrow morning on a final agreement on the consensus of this 15 conference with respect to those standards 16 | Once that is done it is intended that the Maritime 17 | Commission and the Navy Department promulgate those to all 18 || of the yards and ask that in the interest of efficient pro- 19 | duction those standards be adhered to We will have an or 20 || ganization jointly dedicated to the yards with Navy contracts 21 || and Maritime Commission contracts which will be applicable to 22 || all companies both from the health and from the safety stand- 23 || point 24 We want you to understand that we do not intend to do 25 25 this job ourselves That is basically your job However we 10e se H do hope that we can act in the role of coordinators and ad- N il visers We want to be there to help you do that job W. Now in the very first place we want it understood that 4 the standards will be the product of your doing your own 5 || conference right here If all those who come who have been ' 6 invited we will have representatives here from the Safety 7 Department from the Medical Department from management 8 | from labor and in that way we will have a true cross picture 9 of those who have the principal duty of really building these 10 ships for us 11 Now tomorrow morning then it is hoped that we will be 12 || in a position to come to some agreement on what the standards 13 should be Tomorrow afternoon we hope that we will be able 14 to display to you the most advanced styles so far as clothes 15 for women are concerned and as soon as definite arrangements 16 are made on that we will let you know 17 From now on I think that we might as well get down to 18 || work If any of you have not got copies of Mr. Drinker's or 19 || Mr. Roche's data they will available for you at the regis- 20 tration desk outside I also want to say that everyone here 21 will register so that we will have a record of the attendance 22 Again I want to thank you very much indeed for your 23 || attendance here and I want to wish you all success in the 24 || speedy and efficient formulation of these formulas for the 25 || protection of the health and safety of workers in our ship- 74 lle yards because all it is going to be your job Thank you all very much indeed Applause) Now I want to present to you Mr. Drinker who will talk to you on the minimum standards for industrial health in shipyards MR PHILIP DRINKER Have you gentlemen all copies of this minimum standards for the control of health in contract 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 shipyards of Maritime Commission and Navy Now it will be impossible for this to be the success we hope for the conference unless you in such brief time as we have and we are going to designedly have plenty unless you mill around and get to know each other and visit You come fromall corners of the country and many of you have not met each other and we wish you would throw formality to the winds and just visit and have some unofficial talks about anything at all to do with the things that bring us here Will you turn first to Section A page 1 and I do not intend to read all of this in detail but I do hope that those who are especially concerned with the medical end of this will take time to go over it roughly now and then in detail this afternoon and this evening On the first few paragraphs there probably is nothing especially controversial but as we go down the page there will be notably under physical facilities item 2 under the 12e 4 _ ow Roman numerals we suggest that substations for first aid be within a distance of about 400 yards for anybody so that a man would an emergency job not have to be taken further than that if he could walk he would not have to be re- quested to go farther than that himself 6 We do not wish to imply in this that we intend to be 7 arbitrary and go out and measure the distance We certainly 8 do not expect to do that The doctors and nurses and ambulance facilities are 10 more or less according to the accepted practices and I think 11 in many yards they are already established If the yard 12 beats these suggestions that naturally is no cause for un- 13 favorable comment We favor it very warmly On page A one of the first faults that we found with 15 the maritime yards - and it is not true of all of them - 16 but of some of them and that was the records and forms that 17 came to the Maritime Commission We thought that those rec- 18 ords and forms were very poor and they are being changed 19 and that will be discussed in some detail in Mr. Roche's sec- 20 tion 21 The suggested forms that we would like to see filled in now and which in many cases have not been filled in are any such form as this discussed in A Now we know in an emergency we do not want any form filled out When a man is badly hurt you do not want him to fill out any form in order 130 3 Sa . H || to bring him to a doctor naturally 2 Item 1 is a form authorizing the workman to report to 3 || the medical department for examination or treatment issued by 4 a foreman or leading man or other supervisor This shall 5 || show time of issue arrivalat dispensary discharge from dis- 6 jl pensary and return to work 7 In many cases now there are no records in the yards of 8 men who go to dispensaries for minor ailments They cause 9 loss of time and in most cases we have no way of showing it 10 and no way of comparing with another yard for loss of time 11 on any such basis That is not true in every place but it 12 13 |is true in a great The filing of manoyf records them with the medical department and 14 || the safety department in many cases is not good at all and 15 || it would be a decided advantage of all to see that that is 16 || good 17 We would like to have the safety and medical departments 18 to have the same records of any accident injuries or ill- 19 ness and that they have that information given to them 20 | promptly 21 Under examinations we urge very strongly what might be 22 called a placement examination for employees This does 23 notnot mean an examination in advance of hiring necessarily but 24 |) when a man is hired he should be examined to see that he is 25 put in the job for which he is physically suited and not one 14e for which he is physically unsuited which may do him harm or harm to those with whom he works We feel that periodic check examinations should be given to the men in all jobs where the men are doing something which is hazardous or which is a risky either to the men themselves or to others I have reference to crane operators locomotive and hoisting and portable engineers It certainly should have periodic physi- cal check and now in many yards do not have that We urge in the strongest possible terms that there be periodic 10 check examinations to men in jobs in which there is a definite 11 health risk such as sand blasting paint spraying and cer- 12 tain types of radium and ray work . sero- 13 Item 3 is that special examinations such ray 14 logic and urinalyses shall be given in the individual case as 15 indicated and in accordance with local needs Now special 16 examinations such as ray serologic and urinalyses would 17 be asked by a doctor in any normal establishment and we be- 18 lieve it should be here but we do not think there is any need for us to give any cut and dried scheme that you should 20 follow They will vary with the place and we think it would 21 be ahindrance rather than a help for us to detail the pro- 22 cedure to be followed everywhere 23 On page A air raid precautions the amount of work 24 that was done on that and the preparations throughout the country was quite different In some places it was done in- 4 15e completely and in other places it was done rather haphazardly It was more or less a matter of chance Now we do not believe that our organization is in any position to say what precautions ought to be taken but we do feel very strongly that the least the yard can do is to keep up to date and be sure they are acting in accordance with the wishes of the local army and navy officials If that is done theries no reason that we should criticize it but by and large most of the yards we saw the emergency med- 10 ical supplies such as you would need in the event of an air 11 raid etc. were generally speaking all in one place Now 12 that is not always true but generally it is So if there 13 was a direct hit presumably most of them would be destroyed 14 The responsibilities of the medical services are I 15 think more or less what would be expected with possible 16 exceptions of item No. 3. That I do not think has been done 17 in practically any yard we have seen and is done in most 18 modern industrial establishments such as large factories That is it should be the joint responsibility of the med- ical and safety departments through the supply department to 21 know the composition of paints thinners paint removers 22 and other chemicals used in the yard 23 We have seen some astonishing sights from the health 24 standpoint in men using a chemical which no one would knew the proper name of They didn't know what they were working 16e with and in some cases they were chemicals the result of a careless use would be bad Now there is no reason why if the Maritime Commission and the Navy act as a unit we cannot have what amounts to an enforced labeling and that would simplify things a lot You may buy a can of something or other to thin paint with and what we want to do is to make the manufacturer put the name of the ingrediention there Now you do not have to ask him to divulge the chemical formula but you would save us a lot of headaches if that information was given Now we have a laboratory on the west coast but we do not want you to send in these chemicals for us to analyze It is a devil of a job and it is very easy for the manufac- turer who puts the labels on there to give us that informa- 15 tion We do not want to have him divulge the trade secrets 16 or his secret formula because there is no reason why we 17 should have it but instead of Quick Acting Solvent 22 18 or something like that they might as well put on the com- 19 position say 10 per cent benzoin 80 per cent phenol or 20 whatever it is and let us know what it is That would save 21 you a lot of trouble and also it would save us a lot of trouble Now the way to get this is if you gentlemen feel about it the way we do we will just say it is the sense of this meeting and that the Maritime Commission and the Navy feel 4 176 10 11 12 13 Fie 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 that this ought to be done and we think we can put it through We would have the strong backing in that case of most of the large manufacturing companies likewise such as General Electrio General Motors etc. because they are in the same boat and they donot like these weird names in their chemicals any more than we do Now I hope very much that you will give us your back- ing on that and if you have any reason to disagree perhaps when we get down to detailosr on that this afternoon you can so indicate On Item No. 5 the future employment of women and the necessity of making provisions in the meical set for their examinations and care is perfectly obvious but I do not think it is being foreseen in a good many yards as it should | be Cafeterias and canteens By and large in the Maritime and the Navy contract yards they could stand a very lot of improvement We saw few of them that would compare favorably that you would see in a modern manufacturing plant What ought to be done about them from the broad national policy we are not yet quite sure but something certainly should be done We would urge strongly that the medical departments examine food handlers in these cafeterias and have a regular soheme for such examinations cafeterias Also that the medical departments inspect any A 18e or food dispensing arrangement that the men use and inspect them the way they are done and in regular army and navy work Now those inspections ought to be at scheduled times and they ought to be very frequent and they ought to be thorough The water supply sewerage and waste disposal by and large we had little fault to find with any of them There were one or two exceptions but in general they were well handled But we think those suggestions for inspection on 10 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 page 4 should be followed The provisions for salt tablets particularliyn the yards around the Gulf are important and in plenty of the | east coast yards in the summer weather Now part of our set for the future work will involve the laboratory which will be at the Harvard School of Public Health and there will be another one at Berkeley California The work that we want these laboratories to do at first is to help you out in examination of urine specimens and in- fected blood poisoning We propose to discuss in the medical meeting this after- noon procedures for carrying out such analyses and we will be ready we hope very soon to help you out with such analyses ourselves and then to send somebody who can show you how to do them if you want to set them out routinely We know or we can show you beyond any argument I think that in 4 cy4 conroy 1,5 practically all of the Waritime and many of the Navy operated yards know you are likely to get some lead poisoning es- pecially from welding on lead painted surfaces As you know it is pretty nearly routine procedure now in all Maritime yards to paint all metal surfaces as soon as possible whether have ones they been erected or not and very often the painted are taken out to the hull and welded in the proper position The lead paint is not stripped off at that time before weld- ing The routine procedure is to weld with the paint on 10 and the heat of the arc gets rid of the paint and the weld- 11 ing job is all done at one time 22 There has never been any such work done yet industrially 13 when lead poisoning has resulted and we think it is 14 certain to result in the ship yards The way to avoid it 15 obviously is not to paint needlessly and we are sure you 16 will back us in suggesting to the Maritime Commission that 17 steps be taken to reduce that practice of painting before it 18 needs to be done 19 We have no fault to find with ship construction in which 20 a job is finished and has been painted and an inspector 21 goes around and checks off and says that that has to be 22 rewelded That sort of thing is inevitable We are not 23 criticizing that but we are criticizing the needless pre- 24 painting and we are firmly convinced that from the production production 25 standpoint that that can be easily stopped QU 2lgs Now we will show you in the demonstration here this afternoon when we have a welding outfit going the procedures now adopted for sampling air and it is a procedure that can be done by the safety engineers or the procedures that our men will use when they come to visit you to check up on any such hazards as we are discussing here today Now those sort of air analyses and checks need not be done often We do not want to wish a needless chore on you that will interfere with more important duties for the safety 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 engineer and above all the last thing we want to do is to put through any restrictions that will slow up the shipbuilding program If we can present to you the facts as we know they exist why then maybe you can make suggestions yourselves to put through the things that you think are necessary The items under Section B on the use of safety departments in shipyards which has to do with respiratory protec- tive equipment and the like we think that the respiratory program in the Maritime yards and the Navy yards have not been at all good We would urge in the strongest possible possible terms that all yards now buy only and use only respiratory and respiratory protective equipment that has the approval of the United States Bureau of Mines Experiment Station at Pittsburgh They have a laboratory that is especially adapted for this testing work and they issue lists periodi- 3hs 65 65 cally of firms supplying respirators which have the federal approval We have seen material used of protective equipment in practically every yard which is not at all suited to the job The most reliable consultant you can get on that today is the United States Bureau of Mines which of course is a federal organization and whose information is open to all 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 of you immediately | We will have here and show you this afternoon and tomorrow a respirator or respirators which have such approval respirators which give aid adequate protection et cetera in welding of lead painted surfaces Now there is an item on 3-5 on sterilization of res- pirators which perhaps will be a useful scheme to you and also you will notice in the last paragraph of the last page on B reference to the National Safety Council sheet governing the same thing more fully Section C is devoted to a very brief discussion of to seven items of industrial diseases which is likely occur in shipyards or in many cases already have The most important of them is the flash burn foreign bodies in the eyes and then probably lead poisoning On page C is solvent vapors and solvent vapors can likely be eliminated by compulsory labeling of chemicals or can be cut down extremely C refers to zinc fume fever from welding galvanized 2 metals 3 The next section has to do with fiberglas and then on C it has to do with asbestosis and silicosis The asbestosis is caused in connection with the handling of asbestos That is not unlike silicosis in its effects and we rather expect it to occur in shipyards because we have seen asbestos being handled in installation work with little or no precautions 10 Asbestosis silicosis lead poisoning from solvent 11 vapors and lead can really not be controlled satisfactorily 12 unless systematic periodic examinations of men are enforced 13 I might say it is very difficult or practically impossible 14 to control it by urinalysis It has never been able to 15 control it that way so far that I know of 16 In Section D we have ventilation standards the dis- 17 cussion of which would be out of order now but we will dis- 18 cuss them this afternoon and again tomorrow with any groups 19 who are especially concerned I know there are quite a few 20 men here today who are very much interested in ventilation 21 in ship construction starting from the double bottoms and 22 going right on up and there is nothing that we would like 23 more than get into such a discussion with them We will work 24 that in tomorrow at any time you gentlemen see fit 25 I hope you have made some notes on this We propose 5hs 23 this afternoon for those interested in the medical aspects to meet in this room at two o'clock and those interested in the safety engineering aspects will meet with Mr. Roche in the American Room on the mezzanine floor at two o'clock Then at thirty o'clock we will shift and we will then give the same welding demonstration here and ventilation to the safety group and Mr. Roche will go over his stuff to . some extent with the medical group As a result of the conferences this afternoon we hope 10 that we can iron out perhaps most of the difficulties objec- objec- 11 tions additions or subtractions that you have to make to 12 these proposed standards and that tomorrow we can formulate 13 it into final shape 14 Mr. Roche and I apologize jointly for the fact that there 15 is a certain amount of duplication in his reports and ours 16 Some of these things are safety engineering and some are 17 medical and some certainly are both 18 He is interested in preventing accidents and disease 19 just as much as we are So if we do overlap we have no 20 apologies You will notice that we demand a safety store 22 and so does he and just so long as you have that material 22 available where the men can easily and conveniently get 23 safety equipment we have no objection We do not care if 24 it is in there four times so long as we get the store . 25 The organization which we will have to control health 608 fs . os ~ 1 | will consist of two physicians from men in industrial work 2 in the Navy yards Dr. Sessions was with us this summer on 3 | this tour and he will be one of them There will be six 4 || men three of whom you will see this afternoon in the 5 demonstration that we propose to give They are engineers -- and chemists trained especially in industrial medical manner 7 || on the prevention of disease 8 One of the doctor's headquarters will be in the east || two 9 and one in the west and there will be ensigns to cover 10 the east coast and one to cover the west coast one the Great the 11 Lakes and one the Gulf and I have to cover all rest of 12 them and this gentleman Mr. Ring is our boss 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 Now our job is to help you We will be available to come and see you and help you at anything that we can We have had a couple of requests from yards now to go back on specific investigations to see the hazards which they though that they had or did have and to help tell them ways of improving conditions et cetera That is what we are for and that is what we are being paid for and if you do not make use of us or if you do not make us work for you we will be liquidating and resigned That is what the 22 organization is set up to do and if you do not make us 23 work then I think that that will be your fault We can do 24 it and we would like to do it 25 Now I beg of you to make notes and perhaps save your \ 7ns SF _ ~ ; | 1 questions but get this ready for this afternoon Thank you 2 very much Applause 3 CHAIRMAN RING Well I just had another demonstration 4 of Harvard philosophy that has always been puzzling to me 5 || If I am not mistaken I heard Mr. Drinker just now say that 6 Mr. Roche and he wanted to apologize jointly for overlapping 7 and two minutes later he said If you find any overlapping 8 there we have no apologies to make Sooner or later as 9 years go on I will find out how to assimilate those things 10 In the meantime I think we ought to hear from the Navy 11 who is just as much interested in this program as the Mari- 12 time Commission and which is bearing an equal if not a 13 heavier brunt of the load and the expense The cooperation 14 that has been extended by the Navy has been something that 15 has been fine especially in Washington where sometimes 16 they find one agency and another quietly and politely fight- ing with each other at 18 I want to present to you this time Lieutenant 19 Commander D. E. Carlson who is the Navy representative on 20 safety and health 21 LIEUTENANT COMMANDER CARLSON Thank you very much 22 Mr. Chairman but I would like to say that Mr. Desjardines 23 is one of our chief engineers and I just want to say that we extent 24 will cooperate with you to the fullest However we 25 are going to sit back on the sidelines and let Mr. Ring boss 8h8 ~~ the show We are just here in an assisting capacity There are just a couple of things that come to my mind at this time and you are just as much affected by them and I have refer- ence particularly to the manner in which we are being hit by the draft You are going to have a special problem that you never had before because you are going to have the lame and the blind and not the female coming to you Have you ever tried to put safety shoes on girl Well you are going to have to do that very shortly All I can say is regard to 19 110 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that is to try to get them You are going to have trouble getting material you are going to have especially consider- able trouble in getting men I know that we are having a dickens of a time now finding safety engineers doctors et cetera because the doctors are practically all gone They are all in uniform We have got problems which each individual is going to have to solve himself and the biggest help that we are going to be able to give will come from the Bureau of Medicine and Surgery in the Navy Department We are going to loan the necessary officers to the Maritime Commission to carry along on that and in that connection I would like to present to you Commander Burton of the Surgeon General's office COMMANDER OTTO L. BURTON The only thing I have to say is that the Surgeon General's office has promised all the cooperation that we can give to you and any medical help that 9hs 9 bw they are going to need on this program is available So far as the program is concerned I have nothing to say about that It sounds very good to me Applause CHAIRMAN RING We all know the difficulties that have been caused so far as eye trouble is concerned and we know that is one of our principal problems In arc flashes when a burn occurs and the result is that you put a man's eye out of commission for a while I would like to say that the lead- organization in this country which has taken one of the 10 ing roles in safety measures so far as eyes are concerned 11 is the National Society for the Prevention of Blindness The 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 representative of that association is here today and she is probably one of the leading ophthalmologists in the country We have prevailed upon Dr. Hedwig S. Kuhn to come here from Hammond Indiana to give us a few words and we have under- stood that Dr. Kuhn will be here for any specialized assist- ance which she can give during the entire session I want to | present to you at this time Dr. Hedwig S. Kuhn DR HEDWIG S. KUHN Well I do not know that there is much I can say after the reference to the lame the blind and the women all in one sentence I do not know whether we are going to be able to help you very much or not but we are going to try and I think it is not only just a question of goggles but the actions that come from eyes after they are protected from goggles that I hope we can get across to - you in the next couple of days 28 I would just like to say at this time that the joint committee of Industrial Ophthal- mologists which is the official group of the A. M. A. and American Academy of Ophthalmogoists are back of this industrial work that has been suggested and which it has been my pri- vilegteo be associated with and I hope that I can be of some useful assistancteo you Thank you very much Applause CHAIRMAN RING I now take a great deal of pleasure in presenting to you Mr. John Roche of our Safety Department 10 MR JOHN ROCHE When we started this program a few months 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ago Dan Ring told me something he did not tell you He said Roche our job is to build ships and we are not building as many ships as we could build if we were not having the acci- dents that were occurring in shipyards today Now we absolute and final records on the national shipbuilding situation in this country today but we have been ben able to prepare estimates and the National Safety Council will shortly come out with a statement that if the accidents . had not occurred if the time had not been lost if the men had not been killed we would have built 101 more Victory ships in the past year and how we could use them right now This survey was undertaken then with the idea that re were going to be practical that it was not going to be an idealistic scheme cure like some of the other other things that have been wished on the shipbuilding industry and a lot f 1lbs == 5 ; _ 1 of other industries in the last few years So what you get 22 today and what you will look at this afternoon in the safety 3 part of this meeting and the health part are our ideas of 4 minimum standards not complete accident prevention programs 5 but the standards the basis upon which you can build a sound 6 accident prevention program in your shipyards 7 Let me say a word about the type of yard selected We 00 || did not go to the worst yard we did not go to the best yard ; 9 or to the biggest yard or to the smallest yard We tried 10 to get a representative sample of the shipbuilding industry 11 We took from those samples the best things that they had in 12 their organization and the plans for facts that I propose 13 for the minimum standards are the best things that are going 14 on in the shipbuilding industry today as far as I was able 15 i to discover on that survey based on my past experience 16 based on my conversations and talks with shipyard men 17 There is a definite need for standards I have run 18 into every conceivable type of accident and record every 19 possible type of safety committee every possible type of 20 designation of responsibility to a safety department 21 Now the safety man might be anything from a shipping 22 clerk to a president He might be the yard superinten- 23 | dent or as in the case of some yards he had a definite 24 and specific responsibility for the safety and health for 25 the men in his yard So we are recommending standards We do not say however that if your yard does not comply with the standards in every respect that you must arbitrarily change from what you are doing to what these minimum standards suggest If you are doing a better job than the standards ask for then continue to do it If you are not doing as good a job then the least that can be asked is that you bring up your safety department and health department and hygiene work to the _ minimum standards that are required 10 Now I tried out this program on a group of guineapigs 11 and I see a lot of them are here that is the proposed mini- 12 mum standards for the safety in shipyards There were 13 13 men from all sections of the country at that meeting and we 14 held a meeting in Chicago and discussed these proposed mini- 15 mum standards and at their suggestions certain corrections 16 and changes have been made in the proposed standards They 17 are included so that you have right now in your hands what 18 represents a pretty good section of opinion of the 19 shipbuilding industry on the type of standards they think 20 shoulbde minimum 21 Now let me say first the dream of every safety enginee 22 is to sell his management to get his management actively 23 in back of him and to make management believe that safety 24 is just as important as a safety engineer knows it is That 25 is one of the toughest jobs that a safety man has in any 13hs 31 industry These minimum standards while they will not guarantee to do that for you certainly call for a specific action on the part of management They call for active and interested cooperation demonstrated by certain activities that will show in no uncertain way that management is definitely in back of your yard program and with that cooperation and interest demonstrated your job is going to be considerably | easier 10 The safety department has outlined a program and we will 11 have some discussion on that this afternoon We have tried 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 to designate the size of the safety department based on the size of the yard We have told them of their responsibilities and what they shall do and how they shall do it according to the minimum standards Now they are not to be shipping clerks but safety directors and safety engineers and they are to take the responsibility and prevent accidents in the yards We are suggesting too certain types of report forms which you will find in the back of the leaflet here and they are too elaborate to go through at this time and they will be discussed this afternoon We have specified the type of committees However agai let me stress minimum standards are what we are referring to There is a forming committee or a central committee a supervisors committeaned the Now . have if you have more a forming than that committee various inspection committees use them but if you do not and I regret to say that many of the yarddso not have them then you should have one and get the benefit of management's participation in your deliberations upon safety problems which arise in the yard | We specify employee training Let me say this I every visited training schools in every yard in section of the country and they are doing a swell job of craft train- @ 10 but they are doing a lousy job of safety training I ing and 11 walked into a welding school saw the instructor working 12 without a helmet I investigated the records of shipyards 13 and found that men who had taken craft training in those 14 welding schools were 50 per cent more likely to have eye flash 15 than were the men who did not have training I found in one 16 yard that there was more time lost due to eye flash than all 17 the rest of the lost time from all of the other accidents 18 in these yards from anything else 19 I found one yard where there were two days given off 20 21 22 23 24 25 for every eye flash and in other yards all they did was to get treated We much time Why have no standards Because craft and and we safety are losing too training are not properly correlated and they must elaborate on that because that is be I Jack's am not going to job to do that but I want you to know that there is that in the standards 15he a 4 _. _ 1 and it will be elaborated on considerably The Maritime 2 Commission in setting up the standards said that you must _| 3 | not set up standards but give them tools with which to work 4 | and the first thing to do is create an organization and that 5 is not going to be a typical governmental organization We 6 | are not going to hound you to death with two or three hundred 7 inspectors but we are going to set up a consulting organiza- organiza- 8 | tion which will be available to you and which will be 9 able to give you the help which you need when you want it 10 based on your monthly reports to the Maritime Commission 11 If your yard shows a need of help you will get it whether 12 you want it or not and I can see some of you smiling Well 13 all that that means this that we are going to review 14 your records and if you are above a general small industry 15 average then you can expect to receive a visit from the 16 Maritime consultant and have him offer his assistance to 17 determine what is wrong where your accident record is up 18 and what you can do to get the accident record where it be- 19 longs 20 Another thing we are supplying the tools for you in to 21 addition the organization and one of the tools will be 22 specific safety posters I was never so inspired in my life 23 as when I walked around the shipyards and saw such inspiring 24 posters as Don't Have An Accident The Best Safety Device 25 Is A Careful Man That was all the way up and down the line ... 16hs 34 from the building of ships to the patriotic angle and everything else but nothing on specific safety practices which they need There should be specific posters for burners stage riggers crane operators et cetera ; For example we have a man out in the Bay area in San Francisco where we have a varietoyf shipbuilding making a study He is taking pictures making sketches and he is becoming thoroughly familiar with shipbuilding operations That man is an artist and a photographer You can expect 10 within a short time now to have specific and definite types 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 of posters for crafts on safety practices In addition to that we will later on furnish you with safety instruction cards and such other material as you may need In addition we will have sound film strips based again on specific unsafe craft practices You all know about goggles All I heard up and down the Pacific coast was We are 5,000 pairs short We need them but we can't get them Another yard says We are 10,000 pairs short or they will say We need hard hats or We need shoes we cannot get them and we are begging for them Well the Maritime Commission is doing this for you This is not a promise but a hope We will go before the War Priorities Board and endeavor to secure better priorities ratings for the manufacturers of safety equipment The War Priorities 17hs Board generously gave the shipyards the best possible rating they could get and then they turn around and give the safety equipment manufacturers a double X rating and they cannot get the stuff to make the things you want We are going to help you on that and we are going to ask you to get down on your knees and pray very hard when Roche and Ring and Drinker go down there and try to get a better rat- ing for the manufacturers of equipment 10 11 12 13 14 15 -16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Other things covered in the proposed minimum standards are safe practices for welders Now again those are mini- mum standards I did not intend to go through and I do not intend to go through the whole gamut of work practices for the welders the burners or the chippers or the practices of housekeeping or handling of tools but we have given you what have found as a result of our study because we we believe that they were the things that caused the accidents in shipyards today Now if we have left anything out we hope that you will say so but the things that are in there have caused acci- dents and caused a lot of them and those of you that have studied your records know just how many accidents they have caused We propose later on to issue minimum standards for staging of scaffolds we propose later on to issue minimum standards for fire protection and they are not arbitrary 18hs 36 1 standards but only suggestions and recommendations The consulting force of the Safety Division of the Maritime Commission will be glad to cooperate and help in every way that it can in the development of such standards in your yards that will either meet or better Maritime standards One of our biggest problems was women They always are More and more women are being taken into shipyards I have 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 heard all kinds of figures They say eventually that eight per cent 24 per cent 36 per cent will be in shipyards but no one really knows how many women we are going to use All of the year and over now have been eliminated from the draft Well what does that mean It means the younger and more active men skilled or skilled are going to be taken for military service We hope not but it looks as though they will and that means that more women must be ready to step in to fill their places Training will have to be developed for women and the question is will it be different from that given to men What shall be included in addition to the training that we are giving to the men Those are just a few of the problems that we are faced with women in the shipyards You all know the common problem whichI won't touch on here That will take care of itself If there is any doubt doubt about it see me after the meeting and I will tell you a couple of stories based on that 19h8 uo: However one of the biggest problems is clothing for women I wrote to a lot of manufacturers for work clothing In fact I wrote to 159 of them and what you see here now is a representative sample of the work clothing being manu- factured for women But what are some of the problems Here is one for you to consider Oftentimes you have seen in your own yard if you have women employed when a woman welder wants to move over to another job she will coil up her hose put it over her shoulder and then every few steps 10 she would take she would have to hitch up her pants be- 11 cause the women are built a little differently from the men 12 In other words the women are wearing men's clothing The 13 man if you will picture him in your own mind has a differen 14 figure from a woman A man's body is built straight and 15 down and a woman on the other hand is built in this manner 16 illustrating Do you see what I mean Well as a result 17 of that the pants do not stay up 18 Another problem is that most women shave under the 19 arms They are wearing rough clothing and they are wear- 20 ing clothing that is of a dyed material and we are not 21 familiar with the specifications It may run and it may not 22 We are afraid of a dermatitis arm infection Well what 23 should they have under their armpits Should they have an 24 arm shield Should they be built in Should they be supplie 25 separately Should we ask them to bring them from their own 20hs EE ~ . i. = , 1 | home Should we supply them That is just another one of 2 || the problems that is going to face us in the future 3 Another thing many times women disappear from their 4 | Jobs for about an hour Well there is a reason for that 5 || They are all dressed up in their uniform and here is what 6 || was 7 described to me in the shipyard in Brooklyn First they put on suit of long underwear then a are pair of khaki trousers and women being as neat as they 9 will put on something over that and I do not know why Then 10 they have to go to the office and they are gone for about 11 an hour because it takes them about that long to get their 12 | clothes off and go to the office and return and then put 13 them back on again The manufacturers have not recognized 14 the need for some convenient arrangement for women who are 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 working in shipyards and brother if you take an hour for each woman in the morning and once in the afternoon and multiply that by the number of women you have in the ship- country yards and the number of shipyards you have in the will have lost a lot of hours in the building of Victory you ships which is an essential activity at this time So we have got to establish some standards there Shall clothing have cuffs Shall there be cuffs on trousers Shall the clothing be made to hide the natural curves and contour of the women so that they will not be exposed to the jibes of the men in the yards or shall the mY 21hs , , clothing be designed so that you know it is a woman and know who is working alongside of you or near you Shall the clothing be designed by a stylist as one of these hats down here are designed by Dache at a considerable cost In that way the women will feel pepped up and their morale raised because they feel that they have style work clothing to wear There are a pockets or lot any of problems Shall they have flat seam pockets at all Shall the clothing be flame- proof If it is proof who should do it the shipyard 10 Who shouldpay for the worker's clothing being made flame- 11 proof the worker or the shipyard Should there be some 12 cooperative agreement Those are only a few problems with 13 women 14 What about separate lockers and locker rooms for them 15 What about protection of their locker rooms What about 16 transportation What do you do with them at night when they 17 are working on the graveyard shift or the swing shift Those Those 18 are just a few of the things that you will have to be think- 19 ing about 20 Now another one of the tools we are going to give you 21 is a safety contest Every person I talked to on this tour 22 and every person I talked to since has been interested as 23 has the Maritime Commission and particularly John Moody in 24 a national shipyard accident prevention contest for which 25 suitable awards will be made I have 100 copies of suggested 22hs 40 rules for such a contest on that table and I wish those of you who are interested would get copies of those rules and study them and please write me wherein you think they should be changed so we can get this contest under way starting January 1 and continue up until December 31 1943 Now in the safety setup as I said before we were not going to build up an organization of about 500 men to come around and plague you You know they are investigating some of them now and it probably would not be long until they 10 starting investigating governmental organizations to find 11 out what they are doing and getting paid for We are going 12 to have four men one in each region who will serve and act 13 with you as safety consultants and assist you in your 14 safety problems Each of them have lots of experience in 15 shipyards and plenty of experience in safety plus addi- 16 tional training that is proposed to give them before they 17 actually go to work in the district They are at your dis- 18 posal and you are urged to use them and as I said before want 19 you will use them whether you to or not if your acci- 20 dent record does not come up to the general industrial average 21 Now this afternoon we will meet in the American Room 22 at two o'clock for all those people who are interested in 23 safety and I am going to ask you to please bring with you 24 your minimum standards for safety with such corrections and 25 suggestions as you wish to have included in the discussion 23hs eee . = _ 41 1 One of the things I have left out I see and I have it 2 here in big capital letters is the safety supply store We 3 are definitely recommending that a safety supply store be 4 installed in allyards I know you are smiling about that 5 but we will stand behind that recommendation until hell 6 freezes over We do not believe that men should be compelled 7 | to go into the city and pay retail store prices for safety 8 | equipment that is needed for specialized work It is our 9 opinion that they should be given the opportunity to purchase 10 that material in the shipyard or if not that then to have 11 it issued as the property of the shipyards 12 Now that may sound like a rather tough recommendation of 13 but in one yard I know they could not get safety equip- 14 ment for their men and they were not able to keep it on their 15 men until they adopted the practice of buying all of the 16 equipment themselves and issuing it on check Then they 17 were able to give them the equipment 18 Now there is a certain turnover in shipyards That has 19 been discussed from time to time and they were then able to 20 get the old equipment back sterilize it and reissue it to 21 the new men coming into the yards and there has been only 22 one slight drawback to that at the present time and that is 23 that the men refused to turn in the hard hats or refused to 24 turn in the goggles because they knew darn well that the 25 next shipyard they went to they could not get them and they 24h8 conveniently lost them and paid for them has happened to a lot of you I know that that | Those are about all of the remarks I would like to make on these minimum standards at this time This afternoon| we will take our coats off and our hair down and really go to town on it Thank you very much gentlemen Applause CHAIRMAN RING I was just exchanging a few side re- marks with the representative of the Navy during Mr. Roche's talk and there is something that occurred there that is 10 very very outstanding The Alabama the battleship they 11 tell me has been launched or it has been commissioned after 12 about 24 million man hours approximately has been launched 13 without a single fatallity That is quite a record Applause 14 The second thing that I learned and I was almost bowled 15 over is that the New Jersey has been launched and not yet 16 commissioned or shipped out but has been launched after 17 about 18 million man hours and also no fatality there 18 Applause 19 Now that is quite a record And I thought you would 20 all like to know it because the Navy has in their yard pre- 21 sented a very strong appeal for safety and safety precau- 22 tions It seems that it is bearing results 23 Now we have with us Mr. Wolff who is an expert on 24 training I am calling them all experts because any expert 25 should be called an expert An expert apparently is somebody 25hs BS who feels that the general publiics taking him at too high a value simply because he can talk in terms that the general general public cannot understand Along that line with respect to the assignment of rooms to this afternoon's session I think that Drinker is about the best expert I have ever seen Jack Wolff has been in this training business from scratch and he went from nothing up to twentyfive or thirty thousand people He knows the picture on training and he has been making tours all over the country and after he has 10 been in a plant I might say about three or four days later 11 somebody calls up Washington and says Wolff was up here a 12 few days ago telling us about the training setup and I 13 wonder how soon we can get him back We ask them what they 14 would like to have him back for and they say There are 15 some other things that we want to ask him about 16 So these fellows when they are out in the field putting 17 something over that is one of the finest tests I know of 18 when they are asking for him to come back That has happened 19 several times and I want to present to you at this time Mr. 20 Jack Wolff 21 MR JACK WOLFF One of the things that perhaps is most means 22 interesting and perhaps the most about what we have 23 been listening to today and what we are here to work on 24 is that finally the recognition has come to those in places 25 of responsibility that it is a human element that we have to 26hs ile _ a 44 . 1 || depend on most to build these ships When we speak of safety 2 | and health we do it because no matter how much equipment you 3 ll have in your yard no matter how much material is over there 4 ll on the sidetrack waiting to be lifted on the hull it is the 5 | human element that controls the amount steel that is necessary 6 || Does that check 7 Now experts can come along as we have heard them this and 8 morning and they can outline minimum safety standards 9 they can outline minimum health standards and they can set 10 || them up but they cannot make them work by themselves It 11 | takes something more than that and until it works it is not 12 | worth a damn It has got to work before it will produce ships 13 Now these safety standards can be set up by you folks 14 || who are experts in safety Our management can be sold on them 15 || and can issue instructions telling the yards that those safety 16 | standards and those minimum health standards are to be followed 17 They can give directions but that still does not do the job 18 because we have seen a lot of orders issued and they have 19 been either forgotten or definitely violated because some- 20 body thought that they were just somebody's wild idea We 21 can do something else We can put posters up and John Roche | 22 mentioned posters 23 Now it is very interesting about posters We see posters 24 for a little while and pretty soon we do not see them at all 25 It is just like a man who spilled some gravy on his vest The 27hs te first day he was very conscious of that gravy spot but after the second or third day he did not notice it at all but all of his friends did see it Now that works because it is easily checked All you have to do is put a sign or a poster up in a prominent location leave that poster there for a few days and then change it and repeat that frequently and then make a survey of your y ard and ask any man you come to what is on the poster that is out there on the main gate the poster that looks down on you as you come into the yard If 10 you get two per cent of the men who can tell you just what is 11 on that poster figure that you are lucky because you have 12 got a higher percentage than you are expected to get We have | 13 tried that already 14 Now that does not have to do only with safety posters 15 but we have asked them the same thing about fire extinguishers 16 We have asked them where the nearest fire extinguisher could 17 be located For example if this room caught on fire where of 18 would you go for the nearest fire extinguisher and out supervisors 19 50 or 60 men in a series of conferences mind 20 you there was not a one of them who knew where he could go 21 to find a fire extinguisher and every one of them passed with 22 in two feet of one before coming into the room 23 So we cannot depend too much on posters and on signs 24 because pretty soon we become immunized to them and we do 25 not see them any more 28hs 46 There is another thing we are up against when we formu- late our ideas and formulate standards and programs We make them just as tight as we possibly can and then we put them out in the field and we say Brother here it is this has been worked out by the brains and this is what we want you to follow It is all right here and everything is out- lined to you on the safety and health programs and then we go on down with a list of the health and safety solutions how to get around those hazards and then we say Now think 10 safety and think health but how can a man think safety and 11 think health when somebody has just given him all of the 23 answers 23 We no longer think about a thing that we do not worry 14 I about or that we do not wonder about or that we are not 15 curious about so that as soon as we get the answers we stop 16 thinking about them 17 It is almost like the International Business Machines 18 that we see wherever we go In other words there are a lot 19 of International Business Machines that just do everything 20 automatically a hundred times faster than a human can do 21 them and they are all over the room and all around the room 22 you will see a sign Think 23 Well there is nothing more for those boys or girls to 24 think about because the machines do it all and they do not 25 think and they become automatic unless you call wondering aA 29hs 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 about that date that they are going to have that evening that they will be thinking about is what you are referring to They can do that because they have plenty of time to do it because the machine is doing their work for them Another thing is if we give all of the answers to the men in the field and in the yard very shortly they say Well of course that is pretty dangerous and that ought to be fixed but we have got a safety engineer here and that is his problem and his worry We will let him do all of the worrying about that Does that happen Sure it does It happens right along One of the things that we have to do if we are going to cut down safety and health hazards in a yard is to let the men in the yard the welders the burners the shipwright the ship fitters and all the rest of them the time checkers and those that are actually working as mechanics those who are working as helpers those who are working in jobs that are supposed to be dangerous to let them know that we need their help just as much as they need ours They said here this morning that training was one of the things which was very necessary Now we can do train- ing or attempt to do training in two different ways We can make it an informative sort of thing We can start out by giving them the answers and telling them what they ought to do and then all they have to do is follow of those notes 30hs a i __ - l || or we can do it the other way We can ask their help in 2 |) determining what we are up against and what we ought to do 3 || to correct it 4 Take one of the craft instructors for example Here 5 || comes a beginner in who is going to be a welder You can get 6 | this welder to go through a course in welding and you just 7 | heard that a few moments ago and the amount of eye flashes 00 which are suffered in the shipyards and that the biggest 9 percentage of them occurred to those who had just finished a || 10 course in welding 11 In other words it was obvious safety had not been in- 12 cluded Now there may be a reason for that and one of the superintendent reasons is maybe that the welding 13 | 14 or the weld- ing supervisor was not asked in to help work out a program | 15 for teaching welders Consequently somebody in a school up- 16 town or somebody in a school someplace else worked up a 17 program for teaching welders and all he thought about was that 18 there was a certain seam that had to be welded for in hori- 19 zontal position and then in vertical position and in an 20 overhead position and so all he did was to train those people 21 to weld those seams under those conditions in those positions 22 and it never occurred to him when they get out of there where 23 they are not surrounded by a booth with a curtain in the back 24 of them and on to a platform where welders are working all 25 around them that they would not know how to take care of them- 31he 49 selves Well if we want to correct those situations maybe we had better get the welding department to get in there with us to help us work out a program for the proper training of people to be able to do the things which are required once they get into the shipyards If we do that it means that the safety department will come to the training department and the two of them will get together and pull in the weld- 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ing department and the welding department and the safety department and the training department will work out a method which will include safety practices safety hazards safety procedures as well as the technique or the technical side | of welding Does that check Now one of the ways in which the safety engineers and the doctors and somehow or another I am speaking now of the fellow who has been around various shipyards as a shipyard employee one of the things that we run into is that very few people know the company doctor Does that check Very few people know the company doctor About the only contact that the man might have with the medical end of it or the health end of it is when he has a burn or a flash or some accident that brings him to the first station That is his first contact When he gets in there there is a young woman who takes a record of what happened to him and another nurse fixes him up in a hurry and he is on his way out and 32hs 50 that has been his only contact so far as health in the ship- 2 yard is concerned 3 At other times he may come into first because he may have a very sore throat Now you who are on a monthly salary would probably go home on account of that sore throat I mean it is possible that he might but if he is on an 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 hourly basis he not want to lose will not want to go home because he will the day's pay and so they swab his throat beginning They are to do it more and more now I have heard quite a bit of discussion already as to whether it was good practice for the first to do some- thing for a man which does not involve an industrial injury I have heard discussions pro and con with the predominating note seeming to be that we really ought to take care of the fellow although it is a industrial injury because it will help us to get some work out of that man that we would not get otherwise In other words he would go home if he . | were not given that attention i Still when the safety and health standards are being set up it will be a little bit easier to work up a setup of that kind 22 Now if those responsible for health in the shipyards 23 and those responsible for safety in the shipyards will go to 24 the supervisors who are directly involved for the correction 25 of something that needs to be done and ask those particular 4 33hs individuals to their way why work out all of the difficulties they cannot do those things and that lie then for 51 in each one of those difficulties or obstacles they work out a specific solution Safety and health are certain produc- tion objectives aren't they We can call on the supervisors to help us in working out why some of these objectives are difficult attain In cutting down lost time accidents for instance you will be improving production and when you are able to show 10 kinds that to the supervisors they will begin to show you all 11 of reasons why what you are suggesting would be impossible to 12 do However then they would begin to think about the matter 13 and go over all of the work and work out what they believe 14 would be a way of getting around every one of those 15 obstacles and when they were through there is not 16 a safety engineer in 17 the yard or in any yard that would not have run across a great number of things which he otherwise would have over- 18 19 looked which will help him to do a better safety job in that yard 20 21 22 23 24 25 What else have we Those supervisors who helped him work out a better program by discovering some hazards which have previously been overlooked and then by working out some solutions for each one of those hazards each one of those men from then on would be safety minded Why Because safety safety has become their baby Doesthat check 34hs 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 52 Now there is another group here whom we have not men- tioned a great deal about and that is the labor management committee Those people who represent the labor management committee Now the idea of the labor management committee was to help push production to help cut out the things that causes loss of production and substitute for them methods which will help production | Now we can do two things with labor management committees We can get them to deciding what kind of a poster would be the best to place out in the yard we can set them to doing any number of things which would not infringe on management's prerogative in running the yard because perhaps in some cases we may be afraid that they will take some of our prerogatives and so we will try to keep them from working on anything which will involve some sort of a decision or we can put up some of these things pertaining to safety hazards to them and ask their help in developing what those hazards to safety and health really are and believe me there are plenty I happen to know of one shipyard in which at a labor management committee meeting the subject of tin cups came up in which the caterer had a lot of wagons around the yard and they were serving coffee in tin cups with rolled edges underneath Have you ever checked to see how those tin cups are washed Do you know how they are washed ... Well if you 35hs 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 53 ever looked at them washing them you would never take a drink out of those cups again That is the way they are washed and that is the way thousands of men have to drink their coffee out of those tin cups That is why quite a large percentage of sore mouths were developing in the yard The management committee in that yard took that into consideration and they made a report on it and for a brief period a couple of days three or four perhaps the men were served paper cups but after three or four days the it tin cups were back again | and nobody did anything about That is an illustration of how in the safety and health end of it there should be a closer tie between labor- management committees and the health officers or those who are responsible for the health end of the shipyard and also the safety engineers Does that check We might be pretty safe in saying that unless you safet engineers and unless you doctors make a setup through which you can utilize the training facilities in that yard to actually put the problems right up to the men themselves don't even try to put all of the problems up to them but put up to them what you are trying to accomplish in the yard and then ask them to tell you the reasons why you won't accomplish it and then still hold yourselves in check and do not let yourselves give them the answers and then ask th 36hs % 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 to figure out for you the best way of getting around each one of those reasons why you cannot reach that safety or health objective and you will come up with two things You will come up with some hazards which you have previously overlooked you will come up with some methods of solving those hazards or getting around them which you have pre- viously overlooked and the second big thing is that you will have that shipyard organization completely behind you in your efforts to make the yard safer and more healthful That means that you will be taking the brake off production which is put there by accidents and normal health 1 you very much Applause Thank CHAIRMAN RING Now I think one of the worst crimes that any conference commits is to overburden conferences with too much talk and too much material at one time Well we will meet again this afternoon at two o'clock There is only one other item that I think we should go into this morning and that is with relation to statistics Now statistics are the bane of most production men's lives We hear about all of the questionnaires that are going out from Government agencies with respect to them On the safety program you will find a form which we hope can be made standardi- zed for all statistics in the shipyards that are represented in the Maritime program We have here with us today Mr. Max Kassoris of the 37hs 37hs H Bureau of Labor Statistica who is willing and desirous of extending the full cooperation of that Bureau to our group Now let me say this There is going to be no yardstick whereby we can gauge the proficiency of one yard against the laxity of another unless we have our statistical data on the same basis or on the same basic plan We do not want to go into a ramified and diverse statistical exploration but what we do need though and what we will ask you to give 10 11 12 13 14 15 17 18 19 20 your attention to this afternoon is the study of the statistical forms that you will find attached to your safety mini- mum standards Before we go into the huddle this afternoon and so that you will know Mr. Kassoris I would like to ask him to come up here and say hello to you and tellyou in brief just what the story on statistics is MR MAX KASSORIS I came up here primarily to sit in on the discussions in connection with the forms that have been suggested to get your reactions to them I want to see whether or not you have any suggestions for their improve- ment so that they will give us a little better indication of what causes accidents in the yards and how we can better keep track of what is happening I do not want to burden you with any discussion of the details on the form because we will go into that this afternoon We of the Department of Labor and specifically the Bureau of Labor Statistics are 38h8 = _ - . o ~ 1 || very happy to be of service in this connection and to assist 2 || in the development of the type of information which will help 3 || both you in the yards and the people in the Maritime Commis- 4 | sion and other Governmental agencies to know how the yards 5 | are coming along with the safety program through the 6 | medium of statistics to indicate to them the danger signals spots 7 the sore to which they can in turn direct their atten- 8 | tion 9 I want to assure you of one thing I have no use for | 10 statistics as such They are valuable to us only for the 11 same reason that they are valuable and should be valuable to 12 you and that is as signs or danger signals or as tests performance 13 of good Now to the extent that they can per- 14 form that function they can be of value and we will do the 15 utmost to put at your disposal the facilities that we have 16 To the extent that they are of no particular value to you I 17 want to assure you that we will be the last one to burden you 18 with anything that will have no use to either you or us 19 Thank you very much Applause 20 CHAIRMAN RING Now we are running toward the close of 21 the morning session I think we ought to have a resume now to 22 see exactly where we have gone and what has happened First 23 you have had a group of men who have made a tour of this the 24 country to ascertain what facts are and present to you 25 their reactions as to what is needed with respect to health 39hs 57 and safety and training We have received the cooperation of persons who are outstanding in their line with respect to the development of this program We want now to go into a phase whereby everybody will actively participate in the formulation of these standards and that will occur this afternoon when we break up into two groups one from the medical side and one from the health side Dr. Drinker will be in charge of the discussion from 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 the medical side and Mr. Roche from the safety side Now there is one thing I would like to ask all of those who have not done and be sure to do because we want a complete record of this conference and that is with respect to .registration If you have not filled out a card showing that you are here and giving us the data concerning your company address et cetera I hope that you will do 80 because we would be very happy to have that information I want to say that the attention has been given this morning and the reception reception that has been given to those of us who have spoken has been something that brings to me a great deal of satisfaction I hope that nobody will pull any punches this afternoon The only way that we in this country get by and develop things is by having our own ideas clearly presented If we do not agree with a thing at least here in this country we can step up and say that is whacky and here is why I think it is whacky and it is the only way in which which 40hs EET ~ . wee 58 || 1 we have been able to progress in the way that we have 2 So roll up your sleeves and get down to work this 3 | afternoon and let us bring out of this some real practical 4 constructive 5 || men who will standards that will be soon be working in the of benefit shipyards to the million The attention | 6 that is given men's health in the armed services is very | 7 very pronounced We can do no less for those who are in the 8 Army and the men who are backing the services up too be- 9 cause this war unlike any other war presents a home front 10 that is more important than any other home front ever has 11 been in the history of the world This is a mechanized war who 12 and the ones provide the machines and the instrumentali- 13 ties of transportation to get the machines where they are 14 needed to participate in the war very important and every 15 one of you are participating in this just as much as if 16 you were out there on the front lines with a Garand rifle 17 18 Now again I want to thank you for the attention that to has been given 19 everyone and although after conferences a time comes when we have to get down to desks again and 20 steady things that are possibly dry nevertheless the out- 21 come of it will be thing I think if we give sufficient 22 attention to it that you will be proud of I call your 23 attention again to the exhibits that are here that will be 24 ready for inspection and I hope that you will enjoy the 25 ' | demonstrations that have been prepared for you 41hs = 59 -- Again let me thank you for coming from all over the " 3 country to this conference and also for your kind attention and I hope that you will be able to work these standards out 4 in such a way that the whole industry will receive the maxi- 5 mum possible benefits from you 6 Whereupon at 12 o'clock noon a recess was taken 10 11 12 13 14 15 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 -000- 60 UNITED STATES MARITIME COMMISSION co MEETING IN REGARD TO THE MINIMUM STANDARDS co : FOR THE CONTROL OF HEALTH IN CONTRACT SHIP- c@ ce YARDS OF THE MARITIME COMMISSION AND NAVY 20 ee ------------- ------------- Held in the American Room Hotel LaSalle Chicago Illinois on Monday December 7 1942 at two o'clock p.m. Dr. Philip Drinker Department of Industrial Hygiene School 10 of Public Health Harvard University Boston Massachusetts 11 presiding 12 13 CHAIRMAN DRINKER Gentlemen we want to discuss in some 14 detail the suggestions for the called medical standards 15 and then we want to give you some short demonstrations on 16 some particular elements we want to bring out and it is our 17 hope that this will be very informal so we can break in and 18 ask questions or make suggestions as we go along 19 Do you all have copies of this If not we will give 20 you some more this minimum standards for the control of 21 health 22 Have any of you had a chance to look at these It is all right to ask you to criticize them now as we go along That is what we want to get Now how about the first part on personnel 61 DR F. E. Medical Director Oregon Shipbuilding Corporation Portland Oregon You have too few clerks on that for one thing CHAIRMAN DRINKER Too few clerks DR RIEKE I think so - CHAIRMAN DRINKER How about ambulance facilities is that all right DR D. A. McCOY Liberty Mutual Insurance Company Medical Research Industrial Division Boston Massachusetts 10 Why not have instead of a passenger car a station Wagon 11 CHAIRMAN DRINKER Because we were not sure we could get 12 it If we could get a station wagon we will put it in It 13 is a good suggestion You mean that as a stand | 14 DR McCOY That is right Doesn't the Army or Navy or 15 the Maritime Commission have authority to pick up such things 16 from the public 17 CHAIRMAN DRINKER We can get them 18 DR McCOY You can get them 19 CHAIRMAN DRINKER Yes within reason That is a good 20 suggestion Are there any other suggestions in that first 21 part under personnel 22 MR LESTER F. Chief Navy Insurance Division 23 Office of Procurement and Material Washington D. C. 24 How frequently are you going to examine the men that are 25 subject to those occupational disease hazards CHAIRMAN DRINKER That comes a little bit later Could 62 == we postpone that MR BECK It does have a direct effect on the number of | doctors per thousand employees CHAIRMAN DRINKER I agree with you but that will come a little later MR LOUIS S. RELLER The Ingalls Shipbuilding Corp. Pascagoula Mississippi In our yard we use a station wagon inside the yard to detract attention and when the case goes out of the yard we have a regular ambulance which is used at 10 the side entrance instead of the main entrance which passes 11 the employment office 12 CHAIRMAN DRINKER We certainly would not take any ex- 13 ception to changes like that from the Maritime standpoint I think that is something that the local yard could do and we surely would not make any objection Do you think we should try to put that through for the others 17 MR RELLER No I answered the question upon the re- | 18 quest of Dr. Croft 19 DR THEODORE G. CROFT St. John's River Shipbuilding 20 | Company Jacksonville Florida In regard to personnel the 21 first requirement in there is that they have time medical 22 men In our locality that is practically impossible Out 23 of our town we have fifty men in the service and there are 24 probably only about five or six left that are available We are away above our quota and the only men that I have had 63 4k apply to me for work have been drug addicts and men who have made absolute failures of their lives Now those men are inadequate They are not the type of men we want Is it possible in some way to get some younger men or men that would give up their practice to come as time men The men are worked to death They make three times as much or four times as much as they would on an time job and it is practically impossible to get men for time jobs CHAIRMAN DRINKER That same situation applies to quite 10 a few yards now 11 DR CROFT Is there any solution to it 12 CHAIRMAN DRINKER We think there is Some of us do not 13 think that the distribution of doctors to the forces has been 14 quite as fair as it should be in view of the shipbuilding 15 program and some of the other manufacturers and we hope to 16 | get some of them back again frankly 17 DR CROFT Our part of the country has been rather 18 liberal In fact we have gone over our quota I am not an 19 industrial surgeon I am just simply a surgeon that went 20 in to take care of the injured men and now this whole prob- 21 lem is thrown in my lap to take care of the whole business 22 Frankly I am up here to learn something so I can help take 23 care of the shipyards CHAIRMAN DRINKER We saw the same situation in a num- 24 25 25 ber of places I talked to Dr. Leahy in Boston and he came 4 5k right out and said that manufacturing centers like New York Massachusetts New Jersey and Illinois and so on are the ones that are not over their quota and some of the Southern ' states generally are way over and they have been depleted in doctors as a result and the manufacturing states have not subscribed their quota Some sort of a redistricting is inevitable I imagine that is one of the jobs that Mr. McNutt has just had landed in his lap I do not think there is anybody today who can say what the solution is going to be 10 but we are thoroughly aware of it and we are also aware 11 that there are quite a few yards that cannot live up to 12 these suggestions of personnel You simply cannot get them 13 for exactly the reason you gave We have seen two or three 14 yards in precisely the situation you have where they have 15 surgeons who have done no industrial work at all but have 16 gone in to help because they know help is needed 17 I know that does not answer your question but if you 18 could get them is this a reasonable distribution of per- 19 Bonnel 20 DR S. R. GARFIELD Richmond Shipyards Vancouver - 21 Kaiser Company As a possible answer to the Doctor when I 22 was in Washington the Public Health Department stated that 23 if the Maritime Commission would make the request to them 24 they could assign doctors to those areas where they cannot get doctors any other way 6k Su = 1 CHAIRMAN DRINKER I know that has been suggested for 2 || several of the Gulf states where there is a shortage in the W. || maritime and navy yards to reassign some doctors from either 4 | the Public Health Service or the Army or the Navy 5 MR RELLER They won't do that 6 CHAIRMAN DRINKER I think they will 7 KR RELLER The Navy won't because we have a doctor 8 || down there taking care of about four hundred soldiers and 9 || we would like to borrow him to take care of physicals and 10 | he wants to come in and he is just sitting around twiddling 11 hishis fingers and we can't get him to come 12 DR GARFIELD The Public Health Department said they requested 13 would if the Maritime Commission them to 14 CHAIRMAN DRINKER I know that too 15 MR BECK Dr. Drinker can we talk to the physical 16 facilities 17 CHAIRMAN DRINKER Yes | 18 MR BECK I would just like to volunteer as a matter 19 of information that the Navy Department has developed and 20 will have available standard sets of hospital plans in the 21 yards if you want to have them that have been worked out with the cooperation of the National Industrial Hygiene Divi- 22 sion of the National Public Health Service of the Surgeon- 23 General's office and the hospital design section of the Navy 24 CHAIRMAN DRINKER Again I do not believe that is a 25 ww 7k question of the disapproval of the plans It is a question of getting the necessary approval of dispensing the funds to carry them out The Navy has not approved that MR BECK I merely have volunteered that as information to show that we should put together the people who are con- cerned about it and who can plan the functions of a hospital and the hospital being laid out to give the minimum amount of space that can be used for the various functions to be performed 10 CHAIRMAN DRINKER I do not think the yards are lacking 11 in knowledge of what to do It is the inability to get authorization to do it on these physical facilities as far |{ 13 as the medical ones 80 14 Is there any other discussion on the physical facilities 15 DR L. C. SPENCER Medical Director Southeastern Ship- 16 building Corporation and MacEvoy Shipbuilding Corporation 17 Savannah Georgia I would like to ask for some recommenda- 18 tion in regard to sex and color 19 CHAIRMAN DRINKER We have not tried to evade that but 20 again what is to be done about that will vary a lot with the 21 geography It depends on where the yard is The fact that 22 you have got to have that means practically four sets of 23 facilities in the South not always in the North but it does in most of the South 24 DR SPENCER Would you regard that as a reasonable re- 8k quest at least segregation of color CHAIRMAN DRINKER I do not see any way to evade it You have the yard and that is where we want the yard We are not in a position to say you should or you should not do it with the tradition of the neighborhood You would have to do it that way I think we have to accept it as we find 1t We agree with it DR W. J. REIN Delta Shipbuilding Company New Orleans Louisiana Are the Maritime Commission going to request {| 10 that these notes you have here be the minimum requirements of 11 the yard 12 CHAIRMAN DRINKER Yes they are DR REIN The reason I ask that is we do not have any- 13 14 thing like what you are asking for here We have the doctors 15 but we have not these other facilities We also just recent- 16 ly completed our new first aid station but it does not come | 17 close to measuring up to 18 course that is a matter your minimum of finances standards here But the other money 19 will be coming in for extra help CHAIRMAN DRINKER Yes 21 DR CHARLES C. ADAMS Hookers Point Shipyard Tampa Florida I am representing one of the youngest branches 22 of perhaps the industry We are building reinforced con- 23 crete ships down there or trying to 24 Answering the doctor from Savannah or along those lines 68 68 9k 1 we have a first aid station with separate waiting rooms The dressing room is separate from the surgery and the redress- ing is a rather long room perhaps as wide as between these posts and one end is for the colored people and the other .~ end for the whites Of course we do not have a large per- centage of women at the present time CHAIRMAN DRINKER You probably will have though DR ADAMS The chances are we will It is proposed possibly with an additional first aid station in another 10 place in the yard that we will have a very large facility 11 there spread out over quite a big area and the suggestion 12 in these notes was that no one should go over four hundred 13 yards to the first aid station and that is not possible 14 in our set I am the only physician in attendance We 15 do not attempt to keep any patients overnight If a man is too critically hurt and as we are close to the hospital 17 facilities they are sent there and the men in town take care 18 of those cases I am merely on the yard and I have nurses 19 around the clock distributed so as to take care of our load 20 CHAIRMAN DRINKER Do you think four hundred yards is 21 impossible?. 22 DR ADAMS The four hundred yards suggestion is a good 23 suggestion but it is not going to work in many places if 24 you spread out much CHAIRMAN DRINKER What do some of the others think about 25 10k m= 69 1 || that 2 DR RIEKE The Vancouver yard is probablthye busiest 3 |} one in our area and that is solved in this way We are put- 4 || ting what we choose to call stations on the ways one 5 | or two on the ways depending on the number of ways The 6 | same thing is true in the Oregon and Swan Island yards 7 || There will be one in Vancouver on the outfitting one in the 8 | assembly and plate shops You can get away from the diffi9 | culty of distance and I think you will find in those that 10 | are the greatest in population that that will take the load 11 off the main station In other words use your small stations 12 screening stations probably with a nurse at each station as around 13 Now it may be that you will need a nurse in the station 14 the clock It depends entirely on your swing and graveyard 15 | shifts 16 | . The only objection which I had in starting that system 17 || is the problem of keeping adequate medical records on those 18 | individuals which you take care of in stations That is 19 | an objection which will have to be taken care of There is 20 no other way of doing it The distances become too great 21 | in the yard to ask all of your medical staff to come to one 22 || station They are forcing me into that largely because I 23 havehave come to that idea simply because we are not seeing a lot 24 | of the stuff from farther out 25 Your four hundred yard figure is easily a maximum dis- 7h 11k pan . co 70 70 1 |} tance To expect them to come in with their minor cuts and 2 || scratches if you don't have your station closer than that || means you will miss a lot of them and the desideratum is 4 | to get bandages on all of them not only so you will have a 5 || record to protect the workmen to get the small stuff before 6 || it goes up 7 DR ADAMS Now I saw one thing there do you make out 00 || the standard compensation forms on every patient 9 DR RIEKE No we do not We attempt to keep a first 10 |} aid recorads to how the accident occurred the nature of 11 || the injury the identity of the workman the date and so on 12 DR ADAMS That is very similar to what we use We 13 | use a 4 x 6 card that simply fits in with our experi- 14 || ence It takes about 80 per cent of the time of the nurse 15 | per patient for your record and about 40 per cent for your 16 || treatment 17 DR RIEKE Your answer there is to get clerks That 18 || is why I say more clerks and less nurses Our clerks work 19 about half time We hire them for time but they are 20 only there about half the time 21 CHAIRMAN DRINKER The suggestion was made to me this 22 || morning that there should be a separate room for patients 23 that is patients that are coming in for retreatment so 24 || they won't get mixed up with the others just to make it 25 easier to get them through What is your opinion on that 4 12k se = 1 DR RIEKE You are talking of a first aid dispensary 2 in the yard These are out patients 7 3 CHAIRMAN DRINKER No that is not what I mean 4 DR MCCOY If you have anything separated it should 5 be outside of the yards and that wilble an additional ex- 6 pense They can't get the men inside the yards 7 DR SPENCER I have made a recommendation to the firm 8 where I work that they build a dispensary outside the fence 9 so the patient can come in and get treatment without 10 entering the yard and by putting a guard at the inner door 11 only those that return to the yard have to come back inside 12 DR B. JOSEPH PRICE Medical Director Gulf Shipbuild- 13 ing Corporation Mobile Alabama What facilities in phys- 14 |)ical therapy do you recommend 15 CHAIRMAN DRINKER We did not detail them I think it is 16 up to the individual yard to do that themselves It would 17 || just be evaded in some places who would not want it 18 MR JOHN F. O'CONNELL Marine Ship Corporation Labor 19 || Coordination I have made a survey and find a great many 20 || injuries in our yard are back injuries and major joint in- 21 || juries I am wondering about the possibility of having in 22 || the yard where we have two or three doctors one of the 23 || doctors an osteopath to treat back injuries and so forth CHAIRMAN DRINKER We did not attempt to say whether 24 you should employ any specialized physicians or not 4 13k 72 MR O'CONNELL I would like to get the doctors opinions CHARIMAN DRINKER As far as the Maritime Commission goes they would not have any opinion I think it is up to the individual yards _ . MR DAVE KAYE Kaiser Company Inc. Richmond Shipyard No. 3 Richmond California I don't think that the majority of doctors want physiotherapists or osteopaths working in their organizations We at Truly Dam had one working with us and we found him very good We classified him as a 10 physiotherapist He was not referred to as a doctor at all 11 He was very good on back cases I am sure he reduced our 12 lost time cases quite a bit They have a little knowledge 13 of back injuries and so forth that doctors in general 14 neglect very much in their training I think the consensus 15 would be against having an osteopath in the organization 16 DR McCOY I think one of the items under the physical 17 facilities that has been neglected is the space and neces- 18 sary room for registration and keeping of files and records and some place to put the cleks They should not be in the waiting room They ought to be behind the desk and keeping the patient on the other side away from the typewriter and things of that sort It should take up a definite amount of space CHAIRMAN DRINKER We did not mean to leave it out It should be in I am sure everybody will agree to that =a 73 Turn to Page A gentlemen on the general question of 4k the form of accident reports and the like Mr. Roche will take up with the safety engineers this subject and he is doing it now I would like to have us evade that question if we can The form he has I think will satisfy any of you and if we confine our discussion to records for completeness in general to those that would be better now Is apply there purely to the medical sidiet these any discussion on items on the records and forms We have no defense at all for the present Maritime records The sooner they are done away with the happier we will be MR RELLER On the question of ray equipment say 12 yards at the top of Page A an ray unit for 13 employing employing above about five thousand men and 14 I would just like to ask examinations how many of this question At employment 15 giving 16 the yards here are rays taking ray pictures Could I just ask for a showing of hands on that How many 17 are giving employment ray pictures chest pictures 18 DR RIEKE Who is examining employment that is 19 20 21 22 23 24 another question CHAIRMAN DRINKER I think the reasons for going into that are practically none MR RELLER The reason I ask that is the United States Health Department in the State of Mississippi are insisting we give everybody all employment a test picture 15k CHAIRMAN DRINKER If you are doing it you are doing something few others are MR GARFIELD The aircraft industry is doing it quite a bit CHAIRMAN DRINKER On the West Coast MR GARFIELD Yes We have not been permitted to do it in our labor relations CHAIRMAN DRINKER It is specifically forbidden in the A. F. of L. West Coast contracts 10 MR BECK Army ordnance is giving employment ex- 11 amination in all their plants 12 CHAIRMAN DRINKER So is the United States Navy 13 MR BECK Those are contractor operated plants and not 14 Navy operated yards 15 CHAIRMAN DRINKER The Navy operated yards give pre- 16 employment all over Baltimore Mare Island all of them give 17 employment examinations 18 DR ADAMS Those are civil service employees 19 MR BECK I am talking about contractor operated Navy 20 yards They are operated the same as the Bethlehem 21 Shipyards They are operated by private contractors and the employees are the private.contractors employees and they 22 have been able to get around the union objections 23 DR RIEKE That is not true on the West Coast 24 CHAIRMAN DRINKER The Bethlehem plants on the East 25 16k TEs ' = 1 || Coast can do it 2 The interchange of accident reports say under Item 6 3 | on Page A that is in the yards we have seen has been not 4 | near as good as it ought to be We hope the improvement in 5 || the record forms will help but the record forms as we found 6 || them in such yards as we investigated in many cases have 7 | been extremely faulty with a very great lack of interchange 8 iibetween the safety and the medical groups not being reported 9 || back fast enough 10 Let us go on to the examinations We do not say the 11 || employment of an employee shall depend on a physical examina- 12 || tion The labor shortage is such that I did not think there 13 ||was any sense putting that in You could not get away with _ 14 || it Besides labor is opposed to physical examinations be- 15 || cause of abuses alleged abuses 16 We suggest the use of the examination not before hiring 17 but after hiring for proper placement and to continue hir- 18 inging on pretty much the same theme as is now in use everywhere 19 What would be your opinion about that especially the 2 West Coast gentlemen 20 DR RIEKE I think it would be interesting to know that 22 we have been specifically barred by union agreement which 23 waswas drawn up at the cost of a good many million dollars with all of the West Coast shipyards from doing any physical ex- 24 amination prior to hiring That was written in we believe 25 17k 75 75 for the reason that many of the men who have been long time union members are unable to be employed through the depres- sion or partly so because of physical disability They have long since exhausted the regular union members and we find the union members are agreeable not to employment or rather placement physical examinations I raise the point merely for discussion that we find ourselves now short of what we choose to call the helper classifications In other words our upgrading system has been such that we have 10 perhaps an excess of journeymen workmen The placement 11 examination now will be a sorting process pretty much to 12 help us get more helpers required to do the heavier work 13 Now that will adjust itself depending on how long our oper14 ations continue We of course favor placement examina15 tions very strongly I think they should have been in from 16 the start simply because we have had so many accidents happen 17 to men who had no business doing the work they were doing 18 A large percentage of our employees would under normal circum19 stances be considered only physically capable of limited 20 activity We are strongly in favor of placement examina- 21 tions MR O'CONNELL In the West Coast yards where we are 22 23 operating under the Pacific Coast Master Agreement with the American Federation of Labor doesn't that provoke some dif- 24 ficulty in crafts There is only one craft I know of that 25 qi? has an agreement that will accepta journeyman from any other craft and that is the machinists As an example if you take a man who was an operating engineer running a crane and after examination decided he was not physically able to run that crane and you were moving him to run another job that would necessitate his joining another union and paying another | initiation fee CHAIRMAN DRINKER We are well aware of that We under- stand the difficulties and possibly even some misunderstand- 10 ing or even turmoil this suggestion will cause but we still 11 think it ought to be done We have talked with the A. F. of 12 L. officials and they have been more than cordial to the 13 suggestion and we have hopes that we can show the union 14 leaders who are responsible for that clause that Dr. Rieke 15 cited and that this gentlemen just cited that it will be 16 decidedly to labor's advantage to change that and we have 17 every hope we can change it 18 MR TODD WOODELL Oregon Shipbuilding Corporation 19 Portland Oregon With reference to this transfer from one 20 union to another I believe you will find most of the unions 21 working on the West Coast agree that they do not take initia- tion fees immediately and if they could not be classified 22 as a crane operator I do think they could go into one of 23 the other unions where they would classify 24 CHAIRMAN DRINKER I do not think we are kidding our 25 19k - . ae 78 selves as to the magnitude of the problem and the diffi- culties of getting it through We still think it ought to go through MR WOODELL My point is as far as the union is con- cerned you say a man may be ruled out as a crane operator and I say that if he went back to his union and told them that he could not qualify as that he would not be out He might be classed as a laborer or something of that kind You are speaking of a case where a man is the member of a 10 union We have not go so many of those now They are all 11 coming in from the outside and the number of permanent mem- 12 bere of the union that would be unfit to work on that classi- 13 fication are so I minute do not think it is a real problem 14 MR O'CONNELL If you are going to give an examination 15 on a man who is already working he has to belong to some 16 union 17 MR WOODELL You are speaking about new employees 18 MR O'CONNELL Haven't we got to that 19 CHAIRMAN DRINKER That is the next item That is at 20 the bottom of Page 2 Periodic check examinations shall be 21 given men working in occupations potentially hazardous to themselves or others as for example to crane operators 22 locomotive and hoisting and portable engineers Periodic 23 24 check examinations should be given men in jobs in which there may be health hazard as for example to sand blasters radium 25 20k . = - 79 1 and ray work and paint sprayers 2 Purposely we did not try to enumerate them all because we can't and because of the different things that go on in 3 different yards but the general thought is that those check- 4 up examinations in fact ought to be given by the yard phy- 5 sicians in cooperation with the safety department and manage- 6 ment ought to state what jobs are to have these check ex- 7 working aminations In our opinion not having them now is 8 re- 9 labor a great deal of harm I do not think labor quite the 10 alizes how much harm Besides most important point from 11 that point of view is the man power We just cannot afford 12 to go along doing the way we are now It does not matter what we think we have to do We will welcome some discussion 13 14 15 16 on that item DR PRICE Our problem is this We have a turnover of around two thousand per cent every three months and we do 17 employment examination We would either have to quit 18 | the employment examinations to do the other or else we 19 will have to wait until the turnover is less tied the CHAIRMAN DRINKER Is the turnover up with ex- 20 aminations That has nothing to do with the examinations 21 The examinations do not cause it 22 DR PRICE We have to examine all the new men That 23 puts such a tremendous burden on the facilities that we have 24 that we cannot do it We can't get the new men examined fast 25 | 21k ... enough I would like to ask a question How about this sero- logical examination Is anyone making serological examina- tions . DR CROFT We do in our placement CHAIRMAN DRINKER You do serologics DR CROFT Yes DR PRICE What do you require Do you require that they have treatment 10 DR CROFT I take care of the Merrill Stevens Shipyard 11 as well as St. John's and there we require them to take 12 treatment The placement examination is just going through 13 at St. John's now butI have arranged for urine and serolog- 14 ical on every one of those I have a technician just for 15 that 16 CHAIRMAN DRINKER Suppose a man is asked to take treat- 17 ment do you have any evidence he does Do you have any check- 18 ups on him 19 DR CROFT We have been trying to require that that man 20 take treatment and report to the first aid station each week 21 with a card We have a card giving the date the form of 22 treatment and the doctor that gives the treatment and have them sign the date of treatment and his name and have him 23 24 report every so often to show that he is taking treatment 25 We are not attempting to give the treatment itself It is up ~~ 22k == Ee wes 1 || to him to get the treatment but we require that he does tame f ~ 2 | his treatment | 3 DR RIEKE What do you do if he doesn't 4 DR CROFT Let him out 5 DR SPENCER I should like to ask if the medical office 6 | in the plant ever has the authority to say the man must not 7 | work I am confronted every day with that problem - a man 8 || whose physical condition is such that I do not think it is 9 safe for himself or others I have found several men with 10 epilepsy in the plant traveling around on scaffolds carrying 11 | heavy weights and I do not see how these men could be safe 12 | in a shipyard yet they are still employed I was that 13 a man just before I came there had a broken shoulder and 14 a broken arm and a broken leg who went back to work and I 15 do not think that man would be safe Has the medical office 16 the right to say This man is unsafe and should not be gives 17 || employment 18 DR RIEKE I would like to answer that question first 19 by bringing up one other When we started in we had no 20 authority to say You cannot work No one gave us that 21 authority We took it on There is no one on God's green ft op earth that can say to a doctor who exercises the proper pre- 22 tom caution for the man himself and for the man around You are | 23 doing wrong No one I have ever seen has the guts to come 24 to a physician and say You cannot let the man go That is . 23k 00 your job and that is my job and it took me several months to find it out It is a physician's duty and there is no one that I know of including the unions who can object to that policy It is an odd situation that you have to wait until an epileptic has an attack in front of a scaffolding or in front of a hoist or somewhere in order to let him go yet we have had to do that and we have given discharges to I should estimate fifty men in one yard who were epileptics The Lord knows it is hard enough to keep a 10 working force there with the material we are getting and 11 yet it is only fair to the large percentage of the men that 12 those people who do not or are not able to keep control of 13 their faculties all of the time that we should let them go 14 It is not a matter of looking after one man's interest it 15 is a matter of looking after the welfare of the whole yard 16 In other words an epileptic on the scaffolding may fall off 17 and kill a number of men below him and get off scot free 18 I think you have no alternative on that I do not think any- 19 one has to say to you that we have the authority We cer- 20 tainly do have the authority You cannot find it in the law 21 but it is your job and you should take that responsibility on 22 yourself Many men would object to it It would be well for you to go to your company officials so you are both in agree- 23 ment on the thing and if the union officials desire to be 24 considered I would talk to them about it but I do not be 25 24k 83 lieve that anyone company official union official or any other official will object to that particular policy I do not believe the Maritime Commission needs to give us the authority to do that I think that is the physician's job CHAIRMAN DRINKER I hope not DR RIEKE The other point which I raise and the thing which I am alarmed about is this and the point was raised a while ago How many placement examinations are you going to do in which case -... how many doctors do you 10 have to hire Under our present shortage of physicians and 11 it is the same in all yards I know that we do not have 12 enough physicians to do placement examinations and I 13 do believe that we would be pretty hard pressed on periodio 14 check even on certain critical occupations with our 15 present physicians staff In other words this minimum 16 standards is our maximum standards We have had a hard time 17 even getting up to that We are getting by with our dis- 18 pensary service with this personnel seriam pleased to see 19 that our personnel is about what the minimum standards are 20 but I do not believe the extra load of examinations could be carried by our present medical group We have had the same 21 question asked by other physicians in the community as to who 22 raise was going to do those examinations and I 23 that for a little consideration right now 24 CHAIRMAN DRINKER It is a perfectly good point 25 25k 84 Again we will have to assume that had we the personnel how would you feel about that item 2 in a general way Item 3 Special Examinations sucahs ray serologic and urinalyses shall be given in the individual case as indicated and in accordance with local needs I do not believe there is any need to do that be- cause you will do that anyway Several yards have raised the question of facilities for rays That is it would be cheaper to have the ray there and take their own pictures 10 instead of having to ship the men into town and save a very 11 considerable delay and often it would be much better to make 12 the examination themselves right at the yards and take the 13 pictures because they could do it better 14 In general we approve of that very warmly and we 15 would support requests from any yards for funds to do it 16 Whether we will get away with it or not I do not know I | 17 think we will 18 MR DANIEL S. RING Director Shipyard Labor Re- 19 lations U. S. Maritime Commission Washington D. C. Is 20 that with respect to rays 21 CHAIRMAN DRINKER You can put that in the question | too 22 MR RING In a yard with 10,000 employees which I 23 understand Gulf has at the present time I think it is highly 24 important that we have an ray machine and the facilities for 25 26k a -- 1 || taking ray pictures because I think with that many men ~ 02 j} in the yard it is a necessity and I intend to take the mat- 3|| ter up with our Gulf operating officials at the Maritime 4 || Commission and see if we cannot get an answer to it within 5 || the next twenty hours There isn't any use dilly- 6 || dallying about it 7 While I am on my feet and because I generally 8 || start talking when we get in a conference I might make a 9 || reference to the placement examinations 10 Let us get understood on this thing We want to 11 || set up standards that are practical If we have not got the 12 || doctors to do the thing there is no use putting it down in 13 || black and white and saying we are going to do it Let us not 14 || skip by and say If we can do a thing we will do it Let 15 || us find out from the knowledge you people have here what the 16 || story is and whether you can do it or not That is a tick- 17 | lish proposition 18 Back in the old days unions grew up into the be- 19 |} lief that the physician in an industrial establishment was 20 || a dupe of the employer whose principal objective was to keep 21 || out organizers or people who would stir up trouble or anything 22 | else That has grown up as a sort of a fetish with them and 23 || that is the sort of thing that is behind the refusal of many 24 || branches of organized labor to go ahead with employment 25 examinations 27k 0 Let us get down to bed rock Are we going to have the physicians all over the country make placement exam- inations or not You people here ought to know If we are not let us not put that forth yet If we are let us do it but let us do it on a practical basis but not on an if and or but proposition CHAIRMAN DRINKER I do not see any reason to believe we are going to get any substantial help in increased numbers of doctors We will get some emergency ones 10 MR GARFIELD Why not Shouldn't our men have ex- 11 aminations just as the army does They need more The type 12 of men we are getting now are very poor and I think it is 13 the Maritime Commission's job to see we get the doctors That 14 is part of their work 15 MR RING All right if you think so and all of 16 you want to get together here and say We think one pre- 17 placement examinations are absolutely necessary to run this 18 war production program on an even keel two we are short of 19 physicians three we the doctors in the shipbuilding in- 20 jointly here say that something has to be done to get 21 these doctors and we put the load of it on the Navy and the 22 Maritime Commission tell us to do it Tell us that that 23 standard should be there but let's not go at it on a wishy- 24 washy basis gentlemen We have a job to do and we have to do 25 it in the most practical way With the heat we can put behind " 28k it after you jointly have agreed upon a proposition like that if it is agreeable to you and I do not want to in- fluence you one way or the other I think we can get some relief But let us got at it on a practical basis and if we have to go to the army and say The need for shipbuilding requires the release of physicians here and here and here in accordance with these plans give them to us and go to the Public Health Service and say Detail physicians over here for us and then we can work on it but we are not certain- 10 ly going up as the Maritime Commission's experts in ship | 11 construction but having no technical standing as far as in- 12 dustrial health is concerned and say to the army We have 13 got to have so many people released They will turn around do 14 to us and say How you know | 15 You give us the background and the basis to go on 16 and we will go to town If that is what you feel adopt a 17 resolution if you want so we will have it in tangible form 18 and black and white as to exactly how you feel about that 19 Now I do not know whether there is any division 20 of opinion or not If a placement examination is right 21 and the best thing why that should be and come out flat If 22 for it you are short of doctors say This should be and we must have more doctors It is up to the Maritime 23 24 Commission and the Navy if they want this program to go along to get them for us We ask you to get them and point out to 25 . 29k " " you you have got to get them if you want this to go across DR RIEKE Preliminary to making such a sugges- tion that we would so resolve the one problem that the Oregon Shipbuilding and other yards in Portland are running into is this Men are suing us for sums up to fifty thousand dollars apiece for permanent disability due to alleged poi- soning of welding fumes The question was raised Do we need test rays prior to employment I would say by all means practically everybody that comes into a shipyard 15 10 there is some possible way of doing it should have them 11 simply from that standpoint or we are going to wind up be- 12 hind the eight just about a thousand miles on everybody 13 that has a chronic cough simply for lack of any evidence 14 whatsoever as to what that man's condition was when he came 15 into the shipyard Now that test ray won't prove anything 16 particularly but certainly it will give us something to re- 17 fer back to at any rate 18 What good is a preliminary physical on the basis 19 they are doing them now in the service when we run them 20 through at the rate we are Anyone who wants to demand that 21 kind of a physical as to chest conditions is probably just 22 asking for trouble That is a very large question that one 23 point of chest conditions from a medical standpoint I am 24 sure you are all running into it We certainly are and are 25 continuing to 30k 89 Dr. McCoy and myself were just talking about whether welding fumes cause bronchitis or just aggravate it That is just a personal opinion with me and Dr. McCoy and you will get two sides of it wherever you are I think probably without exception that chest rays would be indicated from a public health standpoint and the standpoint of the welfare of everybody that comes into a ship- yard I think there is no question but what employment physical examinations are the proper thing to do and I think 10 Dr. Garfield's point is correct that the Maritime Commis- 11 sion's prime duty is to see that we get the help 12 I think it is now established that shipbuilding is 13 the one important industrial need until we get enough ships 14 to start shipping war products and I think everybody in- 15 cluding the physicians should insist on every possible 16 medical care for ship workers 17 CHAIRMAN DRINKER How would you gentlemen feel if 18 we appointed a small committee to bring in a resolutioonn 19 this tomorrow morning I think we are all pretty much agree- 20 able on these items Is that agreeable to you 21 MR WOODELL Couldn't a resolution be formed right 22 now for the committee to write a form or standard for 23 physical examination CHAIRMAN DRINKER I do not think we need the form 24 25 for the physical examination as much as we need an expression wh 31k YU of opinion as to what to do about that and also the short- age of physicians in the yards MR WOODELL Would that have to come from the joint committee CHAIRMAN DRINKER I think it would be in order to have it come from the joint committee as representing the } a physicians in the shipyards . I suggest as a committee Dr. Rieke and Dr. Spencer and Dr. Croft Is that agreeable 10 DR CROFT Yes 11 DR SPENCER Yes 12 CHAIRMAN DRINKER We would ask you then to con- 13 sider three things one the shortage of physicians in Navy 14 and Maritime contract yards and to make a statement as to 15 what you think the Maritime Commission and the Navy ought to 16 do about it two placement physical examination 17 DR RIEKE Let me ask this question Is the 18 feeling general that you have enough physicians or not enough 19 to do the placement examination or that you have not 20 enough even for dispensary work I would like to have an 21 expression 22 DR SPENCER Before I came to the yard there were 23 two men who gave four hours a day and the extent of their 24 examination was an opener to me They did serological 25 tests blood typing and gave a pretty thorough physical 32k examination Those two men gave four hours a day and some times examined as many as four hundred men and did a splendid job CHAIRMAN DRINKER Gentlemen we still have a good deal to go through We are not trying to step any of this We will go on with this program and we will have this evening for informal discussions and also tomorrow MR O'CONNELL Is this committee just to report or make a resolution on the periodical examination after the man 10 is employed 11 CHAIRMAN DRINKER Both That makes a third item 12 I will speak to the committee afterwards so we will be sure | 13 we are straight on the assignment 14 Now turn to Page A the air raid precautions 15 We would like to feel that the yards are facing that 16 possible problem and not evading it in any way Beyond that 17 we do not intend to 80. In great many of the yards that we 18 visited if you asked if they were doing anything you would 19 meet with really totally blank looks and in some of them the 20 precautions taken were very elaborate and in keeping with ; 21 those you find in any of the big Navy yards Probably some- 22 thing in between is reasonable Is there any discussion on 23 that 24 MR BECK I have found that often at yards they 25 think little of those things until the first accident happens 33k 92 where it involves a large number of men In one case there were some twenty men killed and the radio station the local radio station broadcast that they had several hundred killed and the doctors started driving in froams far away as one hundred miles and hospitals in the local communities were left without doctors That brings up two things first that they need to have an understanding with any local radio station that there will be no broadcasts of any disasters whether they are 10 bombings or whether they are explosions or whatever they 11 might be except when given by authorities and secondly 12 that certain doctors in hospitalisn the town upon which you 13 are depending to take people that are injured from the plant 14 will remain at their posts and not come to the yard 15 CHAIRMAN DRINKER The point we want to make in this 16 is especially shown under item 4 under air raid precautions 17 that you be sure you are in keeping with local army and navy 18 regulations because in those yards we have criticized I am 19 pretty sure they distinctly were not They were going their 20 own way and they just had not bothered about it 21 Responsibilities of the medical service On Item 22 1 Frequent inspections of the yard by the medical staff 23 shall be required I found in some yards it was done with a 24 great deal of care and in others where the physicians frank- 25 ly were brought in from outside and taken from busy practices 34k had never been in an industry before they just were not making any trips around the yards because it physically was impossible Whether that can be done or not I do not know but we feel very strongly that it ought to be done and that the yard would benefit immeasurably from it The close collaboration maintained with the Safety Department and the Medical Department on the records and accidents I hope very much we will achieve as the result of improved accident forms Item 3 in most yards as I pointed out this morn- 10 11 ing that has not been done at all Neither the medical 12 nor the safety department considered it their responsibility in | to know what chemicals were being used 13 the yard If they 14 are not responsible I must say I do not know who is We 15 propose to enforce that and state that it is the consensus 16 of these gatherings that labeling be put on chemical sub- 17 stances on paints thinners and the like If you see the you 18 chemical names on them in many cases it will save a lot 19 of work How do you feel about that that enforced labeling 20 Is that agreeable DR RIEKE Yes 21 CHAIRMAN DRINKER We will try and put it through 22 if it is and we will state it is the feeling of this meeting 23 that that ought to be done That will save us from making a 24 lot of analyses which are consuming and often extremely 25 35k 94 difficult You can now call the attention of your supplies department to the fact that they should not buy these sub- stances without knowing what they are and that in itself will make them write back to the supplier and say Is this stuff toxic or is it not You know the chemicals by and large come from large firms with a pretty good medical set- up and one of the things they have done is examine these products they sell and even though they cover them up by trade names the chances are they can tell you what their 10 toxicity is and will be glad to do so especially when the 11 weight of the Maritime Commission and the Navy is put on 12 them 13 We do not intend to let the thing drop but at the 14 same time we do feel that from now on the medical and safety 15 department should feel that it is up to them to know what is 16 being used in the yards and that they are being used safely 17 Is that unreasonable 18 MR WOODELL Is it your proposal that that analy- 19 sis be given by the vendort 20 CHAIRMAN DRINKER Yes 21 MR WOODELL On the package as well as on some 22 label stating as to what it is CHAIRMAN DRINKER We could not put that through 23 24 probably because many of these things are all made up and 25 they have no labels It will take a little time but we do 36k not intend to let up on it MR WOODELL Even though it is not labeled they could by letter inform you DR GARFIELD Dr. Drinker this may not be accur- ate but I understand the Navy uses paint that does not con tain lead CHAIRMAN DRINKER chromate instead of lead That is right They use zinc . DR GARFIELD Could liberty boats be taken care 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 of CHAIRMAN DRINKER From the standpoint of shipping instructions I am afraid we could not get it There is not enough Technically there is no objection but it is a supply problem I do not think it has to be I think the Liberty type ships can continue using red lead paint safely DR RIEKE Dr. Drinker this is a personal prob- lem I do not know whether it comes in any further on here in our safety department It is in regard to point 2 Close collaboration shall be maintained with the safety departespecially ment regard to records of accidents and absenteeism " I should like to see this group -- and I think our safety engineer is asking the group upstairs -- have the Maritime Commission authorize and insist that safety inspectors be paid a wage which will be compatible with their position in shipyard which is not that of an underling 37k 9 _ = 1 || Our safety inspector turnover is about as high as it is for -2 our group We just get one man well trained in safety and 3 accident prevention when he has an opportunity to earn some- 4 thing like thirty or forty cents more an hour on a journey- 5 man's job and he leaves us and we have to start all over 6 | again The value of trained safety inspectors is in7 | estimable and they will unquestionably pay for themselves 8 || many times and I would insist from a medical standpoint the 9 Maritime Commission take action on it 10 CHAIRMAN DRINKER We agree strongly We have heard 11 || the same complaint everywhere we went I am very glad you 12 | brought it up 13 MR RELLER How about including your medical at- | 14 ||tendants too 15 DR RIEKE We have taken the viewpoint they should 16 be paid at least the yard average Our nurses are being paid 17 just two dollars a month more than our Janitors are on the are 18 Coast The hospitals are screaming that we hiring their 19 help away from them We are not The shipyard wages are the 20 things which are exhausting the medical personnel in the hos- 21 pitals That is a thing beyond our control It is a point that the Manpower Commission should certainly study simply 22 from the standpoint of maintaining medical personnel in hospit 23 als in relation to defense areas as everywhere else I do 24 not know whether that has to come from this group or not I 25 38k Paes TEE; - . 97 1 || do not think so 2 DR ADAMS On the question of absenteeism I should like 3 || to hear the expressions of some of the other members here 4 We never got into a definite routine or formula of checking on 5 | that How are you going to know whether these men are off 6 || from sickness or just plain cussedness We run into a cer7 || tain type of man who wants only so much money each week and 8 || when they earn that much money then they lay off until the 9 || next week I would like to have an expression as to how you 10 || are going to check up on these men 11 | CHAIRMAN DRINKER I would like to know myself 12 DR PRICE We require every man who has been off it 13 || used to be three days but now it is one day to bring a 14 || slip from the doctor who treated him saying he was ill while 15 || he was off _ 16 CHAIRMAN DRINKER Did you hear that Dr. Adams 17 DR PRICE I think one day is not so very good I 18 ||think three days is about right 19 On this point about placement examinations I have 20 || just the opposite problem from these fellows on the West Coast 21 || I talked with the general manager of the yard about placing 22 men who could do some work but not other work and he said 23 he did not want me passing on what sort of work they could do 24 | that all shipyard work was heavy and all he wanted to know 25 ||was whether they could work or not In other words he wanted e aA wu 39k ae _ . a 1 || me to turn down all those who could not do everything - ~ 2 || women and men 3 CHAIRMAN DRINKER They had to be able to do anything at 4 || all 5 DR PRICE They had to be able to do any work that was 6 || required 7 CHAIRMAN DRINKER I do not think that is general That | 8 || probably differs with the locality 9 DR W. J. REIN Delta Shipbuilding Company New Orleans 10 || Louisiana We have that down at New Orleans 11 CHAIRMAN DRINKER Shall I take up No. 5 the matter of 12 || employing women We mentioned before that that really has 13 || to be suggested the physical facilities that are necessary . 14 || will have to be suggested by the yard or rather perhaps 15 || by the district rather than the yard but it certainly will 16 || vary with the district Do you gentlemen feel we ought to 17 || formulate some policy with regard to item No. 5 18 My thought was that the employment of women in the ship- 19 || yards relatively speaking new and we do not know quite 20 | how it is going yet All we know is there are going to be a 21 || good many of them What the percentage will be in the next 22 || six months or year is unpredictable Should we make that 23 || more 24 definite DR McCOY What is the I think it feeling should be made more definite be- cause in taking a general treatment room you have to separ- 25 40k os - se Y 1 || ate the toilet facilities you have to have separation and 2 | usually the nurses like a separation from the female patients 3 || In other words you have two female lavatories and then the 4 || doctor and the staff the male nurses want separation from 5 | the male patients Supposing back on Section A Page 1 we 6 ll increase those facilities to take care of what has been sug- 7 || gested now would that be satisfactory Would everybody be 8 || in agreement with that 9 DR RIEKE Doctor I would like to suggest what our 10 || experience has been We have about 10 per cent of our pay- 11 | roll in women I am sure it will probably go to 30 or 40 12 | per cent if the war lasts long enoughs We have provided in 13 || our building as you remember an extra women's treatment 14 -- -- We-- have not as yet found it necessary to use that 15 except where we do have a disrobing case or a case brought 16 {| in by ambulance I think that is entirely a local problem 17 || I think the space should be provided 18 CHAIRMAN DRINKER How about the colored or whites 19 DR RIEKE I am not in a position to argue that It is 20 | a local problem as to whether you have to have separate space 21 ll for women We have not started to use it yet except in a 22 minor degree CHAIRMAN DRINKER If we do not have such separation 23 24 || for colored and whites in the Southern yards there will be 25 a first class mess 41k EE - = * ae 100 1 DR RIEKE As I say that is a problem in the South 2 || and they will have to have it 3 MR RELLER We are setting up separate rooms for our 4 || people 5| CHAIRMAN DRINKER oo, . Is there any special feeling on the 6 | part of this group on the feeding situation in the yards 7 || Personally I think it is a mess in most of the places we 8 || have seen it I think the feeding in the yards is by and 9 | large very badly handled almost without exception 10 DR CROFT I would like to get some ideas on that They 11 || have no feeding facilities now in our yard at all They are 12 || just in town and there were a lot of little places mushroomed 13 || up around near there 14 CHAIRMAN DRINKER Quick and dirties and diners 15 DR CROFT Quick and dirties The city board of health 16 || has been right down my neck I have done my best to try to 17 || get them to put some place in the plant Originally in their 18 ||plans they had it but I don't seem to get to first base 19 CHAIRMAN DRINKER I have not gotten half way to first 20 base and I have done a good deal of hollering on this I do 21 ' 22 23 24 25 not think we can get to home plate unless this group does something about it If you do something perhaps we can get somewhere I have spent most of my professional life and have done a lot of consulting work in the last fifteen or twenty years on the feeding situation in the maritime yards % 42X = 10 101 1 || and the Navy does not compare at all with what you find in a "|"| modern manufacturing establishment or a modern mining com3 || munity It is not anything like it Whether the yards want 4 || to go into feeding or not I don't know but what they are 5 || doing now is certainly not very good 6 DR CROFT I talked it over with Mr. Page who is the 7 | treasurer of the St. John's Shipbuilding and for years has 8 || been connected with large corporations and some coal com- 9 || panies in Pennsylvania and he seemed to think it would be 10 || a very difficult problem to get someone who was capable of 11 || doing it and doing it right CHAIRMAN DRINKER I don't see any difference in feeding 12 13 a shipyard and a big steel company DR CROFT But he said there were very few concerns 14 15 || capable of handling it He did not seem to think the local 16 || people could do it 17 CHAIRMAN DRINKER The chain cafeterias can do it I 18 || can take any of you gentlemen to establishments who are run19 || ning twenty hours where the employees get anywhere from 20 || twenty minutes to half an hour to eat and they get a darned 21 || good meal and an inexpensive one and an inexpensive place 22 || to eat it DR GARFIELD Are they new CHAIRMAN DRINKER One of them was completed in the last 24 25 || two years I can't see the slightest distinction between them 43k 102 and the shipyards except the shipyards have put up shipyards with no idea of doing any feeding DR RIEKE As far as we are concerned we put up cafe- 3 4 terias and found them inadequate to feed twenty thousand men 5 in a half an hour It was purely from a personnel standpoint 6 You can say that you cannot see that there is any difference 7 between feeding a steel plant and a shipyard I say there is 8 a great deal of difference partly because there is a war on 9 We are unable to get personnel 10 CHAIRMAN DRINKER That has a lot to do with it DR RIEKE Secondly we found there was too much abuse 11 12 of the cafeterias In other words our leadermen superin 13 tendents foreman and everybody else knocked off at 11:30 in 14 order to get into our facilities at 12:00 and we just could 15 not handle twelve thousand or any small portion of them in 16 the provided lunch period and we felt it was just not worth 17 the effort to try to take care of part of them and we simply 18 stopped it altogether in the yards and we have set up very 19 well policed cafeterias just outside the fence at which the 20 company employees can eat before going on shift or after shift 21 at very reasonable prices That has been the most successful 22 at our place And then the inspection I think should be done very 23 24 carefully under the shipyard control of the feeding facilities I do not know what you would do there 25 44k IVC CHAIRMAN DRINKER We can throw a very good bluff and get away with it that is if we have a quick and dirty or a diner you can just get away with a lot of it by being highhanded if it is insanitary and get the local health people in We have never found any trouble with that Do you gentlemen wish to take any position about the feeding situation It is a large one it is an awfully big one and if we start it now we better have a pretty good idea where it 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 is leading I have had several shipyard executives say to me that they would either run a shipyard or a cafeteria but they would be damned if they would run both MR O'CONNELL I have never heard any complaint from our people about the way we feed our men We run in a whole fleet of cafeteria trucks with hot soup coffee and things of that sort They get in the yards just ten minutes before the whistle blows Everyone seems to be quite satisfied I have never heard any complaints CHAIRMAN DRINKER I have never been in your yard MR O'CONNELL I wondered if that was done at other 21 places CHAIRMAN DRINKER I have seen it done in some yards 22 where the fleet trucks brought the milk and some sandwiches 23 and pie 24 MR RELLER Do you have much trouble in jumping the 25 45k _ = LU% 1 whistle to get there !N 3 MR O'CONNELL The management has issued an order that the leadermen is responsible for their men getting on the job 4 || If they don't the leaderman is fired DR REIN Down at Delta we have two large cafeterias 5 6 and two called mess halls That is food is transferred 7 || from the cafeteria to the mess halls We don't have any 8 || trouble at all 9 CHAIRMAN DRINKER How about this matter of salt tablets 10 DR RIEKE The only trouble with the salt tablets is 11 || they take them straight and then they throw them up and then 12 || come to us 13 DR SPENCER I notice in this section you say shall 14 || inspect and report How about establishing minimum stand- 15 | ards for sanitation Some of these plants have awfully in- 16 || sanitary toilets There is no use looking at them unless you have 17 authority to do 80 CHAIRMAN DRINKER The medical officer certainly will 18 19 || have authority to do something If he reports it and it 20 || comes up to the Maritime Commission and the Navy I can prom- ise you something will be done about it 21 DR McCOY I think there should be a statement made 22 when a boat is up and the men are working on it that there 23 should be lavatory privileges both female and male 24 CHAIRMAN DRINKER I think so too 25 46k 105 105 105 We have taken longer to go through this than we in- tended and I am afraid it will make us a little short in the subsequent program but our three officers here all have something to tell of importance and we will let them go ahead Mr. Nelson will speak first MR K. W. NELSON Ensign U.S.N.R. Boston Massa- chusetts : Since our time is very short and we must hurry along we will merely skim through the subsequent sections of this manual and in case any questions come up regarding 10 our minimum standards concerning dust and fumes and so forth 11 we would like to answer them here and now or have your views 12 on them and your reactions to the suggestions we have made 13 This is mostly for the safety engineers but we think that 14 you too should have an idea of what the problems are in the 15 yard and how to control them 16 As far as dust in shipyards is concerned it is not a 17 common problem Most shipyards do not do any sandblasting 18 but some do Where they do have it we have seen it done 19 very badly For instance sandblasting out in the open 20 sandblasting in a room with no provisions made for the con- trol of the dust at all sandblasting without the proper 21 22 protective equipment for the operator no hood faulty respirator and so forth The protective devices we have 23 mentioned here will control the problem 24 The best bet of course is a complete sandblast outfit 25 47k if you can obtain one With silica dust of course the re- sult of exposure after a long time is silicosis I need not go into details of that You doctors know I am not a physician by the way and I'do I'do not want to pose as one Lead dust from paint mixed in the paint shop may result in lead poisoning because of inhalation of the lead Asbestos In many yards asbestos pipe coverings are used They are shaped and formed at the shipyard usually by a contractor and cutting pounding and sewing of the 10 asbestos cloth and insulating material is done Now where there 11 there is any extensive cutting you will find is a dust hazard if the substance contains asbestos All of them 12 point the again do not contain asbestos Here we 13 regulations 14 on safety engineers and physicians knowing what is in the 15 substances and chemicals used in the yard welding 16 The next one metal fumes and smoke from on 17 red lead painted surfaces There is a definite hazard of lead 18 poisoning there We have seen in shipyards this being done 19 very often The heat of the arc on steel which has been 20 volatiliz~ dhas most of it lead and zinc oxide paint and makes a fume which when inhaled is absorbed rapidly by the 21 welder and if the exposure is carried on after a length of 22 time that is day after day he does that sort of thing the 23 chances are he will contract chronic lead poisoning 24 We have made some tests and we can prove that the ex- 25 48k = a 1 || posure is about the maximum allowable limit for lead fumes N || as you probably know the limit is about one and half W || miligrams of lead per cubic meter of air In our tests which 4 || we ran we had as much as thirty times the maximum allowable 5 || limit of lead created in the atmosphere due to welding on 6 || painted surfaces So there may be trouble from that in the 7 || future we cannot say but it is something to watch out for 8 || in welders 9 Zinc oxide poisoning or the zinc chills may be caused 10 | from welding on galvanized surfaces zinc coated on steel 11 || the heat of the arc against volatilized steel the zino 12 || burns really and produces this oxide which when inhaled 13 || in sufficient quantity results in metal fume fever After 14 || exposure through heavy concentration the welder may go home 15 || and after a few hours begin to have alternate chills and 16 fever and a general washed out feeling and become really ill | 17 It is a temporary thing however After a night of discom- 18 || fort the next morning he is probably able to go to work 19 and so lost time is not a large item It does however oc- 20 casionally cause lost time of a day or two but the reduc- 21 tion in the efficiency due to his washed out feeling is something to contend with and of course the effects on the 22 23 || man's morale are very bad indeed You cannobtain bulletins on zinc oxide poisoning or 24 metal fume fever from the 25 e Other results are ARVW 49k a ~ 1 a = 1 || a white count from twelve to fourteen thousand within twelve ! 2 || hours after the exposure and there are other interesting 3 || points connected with it 4 Now the Liberty ships do not have very much galvanized 5 || welding Only in the pipes is galvanized metal used There- 6 || fore those concerned only with Liberty ships may not find 7 || that to be a major problem It is however in Navy con- 00 || tract yards where they make destroyearnsd other Navy ships 9 || where galvanized metal is used throughout 10 Solvent vapors in a shipyard are encountered in spray 11 || painting The various kinds of paints apply to the paint 12 || petroleum spirits and so forth 13 In cementing there are certain cements containing toxic 14 || solvents In most cases the safety engineers are unaware 15 || that the solvent is toxic Carbon tetrachloride and benzine 16 || are frequent offenders in that respect 17 The acid gases and mists are in turn in pickling 18 || cleaning and degreasing operations but they are not common 19 in shipyards but they must be considered where they are 20 || present 21 Alkali mists you can dispense with as being in class with the acid gases and mists 22 Asphyxiating atmospheres need no explanation oxygen 23 24 || breathing carbon monoxide and so forth Now I have up here in connection with lead poisoning 25 50k a bunch of pamphlets giving in detail the technique of doing the basophilic aggregation tests As you know it is not a specific test In other words it will not indicate lead poisoning alone A basophilic count is also obtained in other disorders such as diabetes and others I have these bulletins if you would like to come up and get one after . the meeting you are welcome to them Where any large number of workers must be checked for lead poisoning this method of examination is probably the most feasible Where the counts are suspicious then you 10 11 may confirm your suspicions with a urinalysis or blood analy- 12 sis ; 13 ' 14 15 16 I might mention a word about laboratory facilities Naturally laboratory facilities will not be available to each of you in your locality At least you might have difficulty in getting them And the techniques used in doing 17 lead analyses might not be used by the operators of the 18 laboratory So we propose to set up laboratories to be 19 operated under the Maritime Commission were you can send your 20 samples and have the analysis reported back to you That is if you find a man who has suspicious signs of lead poisoning 21 exposure his 22 or his symptoms may confirm it by a urine sample C Section takes up these occupational diseases more in 23 detail and the repetition of those I have already mentioned 24 such as lead poisoning spray painting which is particularly 25 51k 110 a bad actor In many cases we have found sprayers operating without the proper protection and in most cases their help- ers have not any protection at all A man would be standing beside a painter and the painter would be wearing a respin ator and the helper not any and breathing in this fine mist of red lead paint in great volume Now obviously it is dangerous The absorption of lead through inhalation is much more rapid than that by injection and your lead poison- ing danger is intensified 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 I would like to call your attention to fiberglas on Page C There have been many misapprehensions about fiberglas and the main one has been the danger of breathing particles of fiberglas which is used in insulation in ships As far as has been determined there are no 111 effects from inhalation of fiberglas As you know it is a silicate not a silica not free silica at all therefore it cannot cause silicosis in any way The particles of fiberglas are irritating to the skin however That is they will work their way into the skin although you may acquire a sort of a toughness to that after a while and that must be con sidered in men who complain about their skin condition from working with it The cement used in fiberglas is very often one carrying carbon tetrachloride which is another source of danger Carbon Tetrachloride when inhaled as you know for any 52k Lic length of time or in any great amount causes liver damage and kidney damage and so forth Asbestosis which I have already mentioned on Page 4-0 there is something which will not appear very shortly It will take the matter of a year or two years for asbestosis to develop perhaps but the danger is present in some few yards and should be recognized It is very similar to silicosis I might say - shortness of breath and a tightness around the chest and so forth 10 I think that is all I need mention I want to remind you these 11 again basophilic aggregation tests which we have here 12 which you can get and I will now turn the meeting over to 13 Dr. Drinker 14 CHAIRMAN DRINKER In order to show you what we want to 15 do we may have to double up a little bit with the safety 16 engineers and postpone our demonstration sotthey can see it 17 at the same time 18 We would like to hear some discussion on these items that 19 Mr. Nelson just took up on welding especially 20 DR RIEKE Dr. Drinker I came back with great anticipa- tion because of a discussion we have had in the last few days 21 in our shipyards with the electricians partly in relation to 22 a welding machine and partly in relation to welding fumes We 23 in are very sensitive about welding fumes our place right now 24 and have been for many months but particularly because of cer- 25 53k 112 tain suits coming up at us The question has been raised repeatedly as to what there is in welding fumes We know there is something in the weld- ing of galvanized pipe The zinc fumes we do not encounter to speak of in the Liberty ships We have had very little trouble that I feel to be genuine as far as zinc fevers are concerned However it repeatedly is raised and has been for months and continues to be raised at that point as to whether there is or is not some substance in welding fumes 10 on plain iron plate with ordinary welding rod which can 11 or does cause either acute or chronic tracheobronchitis 12 I would like to raise that point for Dr. Drinker's discus- _ 13 sion 14 The second point is this We have recently had a death 15 the circumstances of which I should perhaps tell you I was 16 the first one at the scene to remove the deceased individual 17 and checked He had been welding The ventilation was good 18 He was near the open air At the autopsy there was nothing 19 found to explain death He did have burns across the fore- 20 head and across the cheek The autopsy surgeon found the 21 cause of death to be electric shock He also found a bright red tracheobronchitis The lungs with a little edema and 22 redness The pathologist made the statement that acute 23 tracheobronchitis was assumed to be due to the inhalation of 24 25 welding fumes 54k cae 113 1 I raised as a question one the probability of tracheo- 2 | bronchitis from welding is it due to welding fumes Second- 3 ly is it possible and has it happened in other shipyards over 4 | the country that definite statements have been made that 5 || electrocution can occur from welding machines 6 I would point out that we have several thousand welders 7 || They have welded for sixteen months through rain and shine 8 wet and dry So far this is the first death to my knowle 9 | edge that we can ascribe to electrocution from a welding 10 machine It was an alternating current machine with 300 11 || amperes and the contact voltage of 80 volts I ask that 12 || very definitely is it possible is it probable and has it | | 13 ||happened in other shipyards 14 I disputed with the autopsy surgeon the cause of death 15 andand also his assumption that the tracheobronchitis was due to 16 | the inhalation of fumes His statement was simply that there 17 must be something in the ordinary fumes from welding on steel 18 which was causing that in our workmen I have some other 19 theories on it but I would rather listen to your discussion 20 of those points first 21 CHAIRMAN DRINKER My own experience with welding over 22 a number ofyears both galvanized welding and black iron 23 is that in the case of black iron if it is done in a confined 24 | space without ventilation trouble is extremely likely Gal25 vanizedvanized iron is likely to make trouble anywhere unless the 55k 13 114 inhaling of fumes is prevented The only oure that we can suggest or the best one is ventilation with local exhausts supplied near to the job Asto whether you are getting away with it or not whether you are having enough ventilation it is extremely hard to state without some air samples and we would like at this point to show you the demonstration that we have arranged here now and we will let Mr. Ege describe how it can be sampled After we have given that demonstration then the discussion 10 may continue 11 The welder that the Maritime Commission has loaned us 12 will give a little demonstration right here on the table with 13 the use of the local exhausts and then Mr. Ege can follow 14 by showing you the sampling meter which we would propose can 15 be applied by the safety engineer at the yard 16 MR MORWICK ROSS Ensign Boston Massachusetts We 17 will leave it to your judgment whether we have taken proper 18 precautions in this matter of welding If there is one time 19 proper precautions should be taken this is it because we 20 have a very discriminating audience We are assured by the 21 American Optical Company who has been kind enough to supply 22 this little shield here there would not be a soul in the 23 audience who would have an eye flash If there are any such tell 24 cases as a result of this demonstration please them and 25 not us 56k Here followed a demonstration of welding) To preface our demonstration let me say just a word or two about the ventilation program which is covered in some detail in this minimum standards which you now have Our interest in ventilation of course is considerable just as yours is since most of the hazards we have been discussing today the health hazards can be controlled by ventilation Now our prime concern I think with our ventilation is the elimination of welding fumes and that is what we are 10 going to show you here today with this little welding set we have 11 I do not think in view of our combined audience here 23 that we should go through our section on ventilation stand- 13 14 ards I think perhaps we will have an opportunity to take 15 that up separately with the safety engineers who are more | 16 primarily interested in it I might point out in our ventila- 17 tion standards the second paragraph which says The main- 18 tenance of proper working conditions shall be the responsi- 19 bility of the safety department whose staff shall work in 20 close cooperation with the welding paint and electrical 21 departments" That is putting it up to you safety fellows It is 22 rather a labor of love for you Certainly there won't be 23 much reward except a better yard If you already have a 24 ventilation set in your yard of which you are proud and 25 57k 110 which you think is doing a perfectly fine job we have no intention whatsoever of upsetting the applecart but there are yards which have come to our attention and undoubtedly others which did not where the ventilation program may pos- sibly lack certain features and that is the reason we pro- pose these ventilation standards In other words if your ventilation in your yards if your ventilation superintend- ent - if you are not he you are to be congratulated -- if the ventilation is poor you unfortunately will be the fellows who will have to stand the gaff I am afraid 10 11 Now what we propose to do here is for our welder to strike an arc and show you exactly how the fume which is 12 generated from that are can be drawn away from the vicinity 13 of the welding operation what the right way to do it is and 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 what the wrong way to do it is We have down here to my left a fan which has been lent to us by the Coppie Fan Company in Worcester Massachusetts They have also provided us with a length of flexible rubber- ized fabric exhaust tube which is on the further end of our fan We bring that out in our minimum ventilation standards as an accepted method for discharging fumes and also as a good method for introducing fumes for general ventilation The hose on the intake end of this fan is a rubberized flexible metal hose used exclusively for local ventilation local exhaust 25 58k 112 Now as you all know it is not enough for a local ex- haust hose to be held in the same compartment with a welding operation That simply provides the elimination of approximately 200 cubic feet per minute from that compartment and does not even begin to take the welding fumes away If on the other hand this hose is held in close proximity to the welding operation it will pick up almost 100 per cent of your and before they fumes | working space in which ever your get a chance to contaminate the welding operation is being car 10 ried on they are outdoors 11 Suppose we start up this welding operation First of 12 all we will show you that if the hose is held close enough 13 to the welding operatioint will pick up the fumes If the 14 hose is not held close enough to the welding operation the fumes will be disseminated into the room 15 ) Here followed a demonstration of welding 16 MR ROSS Now you can by a simple device find out 17 18 whether the hose in your own yard has enough pull on them 19 Bo that that zone of influence reaches to the arc 20 21 22 23 24 25 Yesterday afternoon John Ege and I went down to a place where neon signs are manufactured and we asked a fellow if he had an old piece of glass tube He did and we made this little monometer which you see here which you see is a piece of straight glass tube bent into the shape of a U Now about two diameters from the end of this hose - in other 59k 14 words that is a three hose six inches from the end we have drilled a little hole approximately 3/16 of an inch in diamete anrd with the aid of that hole we can establish what the suction pressure is in that hose simply with this little monometer The procedure is to insert this tube into the hole which you have drilled in the hose and if the hose is a three hose which we have here and that is of course the stand- ard diameter A inch difference in the water leg of this 10 monometer =that probably is not very clear to you if you 11 are not familiar with the use of a monometer but we can take 12 it up later in detail if you care to - the inch differ 13 ence in the height of this water leg represents 200 cubic 14 feet per minute through the three hose 15 Now that is not true of a hose of another diameter 16 The height of the water leg will be different but it can be 17 determined by a very simple arithmetical procedure and simply 18 with the aid of this little piece of glass tubing and a 19 3/16 inch drill you can go through your shipyards and find 20 out whether your hoses are pulling enough air so the zone of 21 influence will reach out and get the fumes away from the 22 welding operation Six to eight inches from the are sounds unreasonable since a man will probably make a bead so that 23 he will be in the zone of influence throughout the length of 24 one of his wires 25 60k 119 Now there is another trick which we saw for the first time on our recent inspection of some of the yards on the West Coast Let us take a look at this It is simply a little vacuum cleaner which has the metal hose attached to it on the lefthand side and it demonstrates very clearly that a vacuum cleaner bag will pick up welding fumes and hold them This does not require any exhaust to take your fumeosn the outside but the fumes are drawn into the vacuum cleaner and are trapped in the bag and they stay there Let 10 us take a look at this and see how that works Start that 11 up again please 12 There was a demonstration with the vacuum off 13 cleaner drawing the fumes from the welding) 14 MR ROSS Now that is our welding demonstration which 15 we wanted to show you If you have any questions on this 16 we have quite a large group here but I am sure this would 17 be an appropriate time to discuss it 18 QUESTION Does that bag hold zinc fumes 19 MR ROSS Yes it does 20 QUESTION It is proposed then that that might be used 21 in tough spots 22 MR ROSS Yes that might very well be used in a tough 23 spot It is really quite an ingenuous little affair It is something we have seen only once but there is no reason 24 25 it could not be adapted for use in our yards 120 I might mention as a result of Dr. Rieke's question that it is particularly desirable to use local exhausts when the operation is on zino in other words galvanized metal or when it is on painted metal It is not at all unusual in maritime yards where some of the fittings and some of the places to be painted with red lead and later welded and the weld after that being painted once again and of course | those fumes that are generated in that process should be brought out and they should be brought out at the point of 10 their generation so they won't be out in the department con- 11 taminating the whole working space The local exhaust is 12 particularly good for cold weather since it does not cause and 13 air drafts of any particular amount does a good clean 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 job QUESTION : Does it take two men to operate that gadget MR ROSS That is a very good point QUESTION I say that because whereI come from we have a pretty small inner bottom and pretty small forepeaks and sometimes we have to try to squeeze three welders down there and half a dozen other people want to come down and look at it and so forth and I know if I try to get six welders in there and a to help each welder I will have to make the man | ships bigger or make the men smaller MR ROSS The question is Does it take two men to operate this local exhaust and the answer is No. ... It is a 62k eee 1 | little more difficult to handle the tube such as we have here N || because it would not stay where it points It has to be held 3 || as it is lying along the deck But the metal hose such as 4 | we have in this vacuum cleaner is better in that respect 5 || We do not advocate the use of the one or the other I simply 6 | mention that it is possible for the welder to prop this thing 7 up in the general vicinity of his welding job from QUESTION But he could not hold it six inches his 8 9 || arc It would be impossible MR ROSS It depends of course on where he is weld- 10 11 || 108 12 QUESTION Suppose he has to do some other welding some 13 || side plate welding he would have to rig up a little gadget 14 || to hang it there He might do that 15 MR ROSS Yes he might do that He must use his in- 16 genuity and see if he cannot hold it close to his arc If 17 he cannot use the local exhaust why of course he will re- 18 sort to ventilation by dilution 19 QUESTION That is what we do or we try to do it 20 MR ROSS Yes As a rule you will find it is going 21 || to require a combination of both QUESTION How close can you get that hose to the arc 22 23 || before it has any effect on the welding process MR ROSS The hose should be within six or eight inches 24 25 of the arc 63k QUESTION MR ROSS What is the closest you can get I would imagine that would be determined largely by circumstances It would not interfere a bit If you get it very close eventually it would begin to pick up the sparks your spark bouncing from this welding operation and carrying down into the tube As long as you are not exhausting in a spot that is dangerous they will go out be- fore they get very far QUESTION Don't you think it would be well to tell about 10 the efficiency of the type of bell horn which increases the 11 efficiency of the house approximately 80 per cent 12 MR ROSS I have not seen a figure as high as that 13 However the efficiency is increased substantially when a 14 bell mouth is put onto the end of this hose In fact al- 15 most any shape helps a great deal This plate holds the most 16 efficient type of hose which you can use for ventilation 17 purposes and a flaring mouth or bell mouth or almost any- 18 thing even a straight flange across the end of this will 19 help to extend that zone of influence over what it is where 20 the plate ends It sometimes is difficult to adopt that on 21 a local exhaust since the bell mouth might then interfere 22 with carrying it around and getting into tight places QUESTION How about the four hose 23 MR ROSS The four hose is a matter of choice 24 between three and four inches The inch hose is of 25 course a little more bulky and possibly would not be so easy to get into tight places but that is a matter of pref- erence and I am sure there is a good deal to be said for each QUESTION I wanted to ask a question About four years ago I was in Jacksonville Florida in a drydock at Merrill Stevens . We were repairing a ship down there and they had five or six welders in the bottom of an inner bottom and they had a large induced draft fan It was sitting right where the 10 welder was in the inner bottom without any general ventila- 11 tion and all he did was just as fast as these six welders 12 were welding it would bring those fumes right up through the 13 hole like that Would that be a good idea to use something 14 like that or is this better 15 MR ROSS Of course the fellows who like this or the 16 fellows who like dilution by general ventilation are pretty 17 evenly divided I think this is more efficient because you 18 have to remove a lot of air to clear out a compartment by that 19 method whereas only two hundred c.f.m. will do the same job 20 here It is a difficult question to answer and I think it 21 depends entirely on circumstances 22 QUESTION We nearly had a very unfortunate situation with rubber hose in our yard We just about smothered seven 23 24 men We were very fortunate in getting them out So we 25 personally would not allow any rubber hose inside the ship at 65k 124 all MR ROSS That is a very interesting observation We used this rubber hose simply because it happened to come with our display equipment We do not necessarily say that it is the thing to do QUESTION After it has been used for a while it will become frayed and the canvas will catch the sparks and you will have a fire as sure as the world I know we had a lot of trouble with it and we finally threw all the rubber hose 10 out 11 MR ROSS That is very interesting 12 QUESTION Mr. Chairman at Marine Ship we use flexible 13 metal hose three and we have a similar set but it 14 is very difficult to get your hose within six inches where 15 a production welder might be welding in an inner bottom If 16 you have ever been down in an inner bottom you will find the 17 three flexible hose cannot bend back on itself within 18 thirty inches from the floor and so it is not absolutely 19 practical from the viewpoint of a production welder where 20 you get six or seven of them in an inner bottom tank We 21 have provided a long five main duct off which we take 22 the three inches and we figure if we can get it within a 23 couple of feet in an inner bottom when they are getting down 24 close to the deep tanks we are doing pretty well But the 25 flexible pipe has proved pretty successful with us for that 66k MR ROSS That is a good point As a matter of fact we have paid a great deal of attention to inner bottoms We practically slept in them at one time or another to see what the conditions are in there and I will agree with you it is not the easiest thing to use these coils of hose in that con- fined space Again the circumstances will govern the pro- cedure I think if you get this hose to wind in among the manholes of your flooring that will possible do it But it is a good point . 10 QUESTION These ventilating standards are somewhat sim- 11 ilar to the safety standards and are of the shall be and 12 must be type In other words as you have in that safety 13 standards you have shall be and will be 14 MR ROSS Well sir we are taking quite a practical 15 viewpoint of this whole thing As far as we are concerned 16 we think that you will feel that it shall be In other 17 words we are simply after ventilation adequate ventilation . 18 We want to see the ships clean and the men breathing ac- 19 ceptable air 20 QUESTION That is quite true from a humanitarian stand- 21 point but I am wondering as far as your phraseology is con- 22 cerned where it says shall be and in the other meeting it 23 says shall be it means do it 24 MR ROSS You may find the wording a little abrupt I 25 will agrees QUESTION You have to be abrupt if you want to get it done . MR ROSS That is what we want I think we are both after the same thing The wording does not necessarily have to come up between us Gentlemen our time is quite short We have right here Mr. John Ege who has some very interesting things to present to the group and I will now turn the meeting over to him MR JOHN F. EGE Jr. Ensign Boston Massachusetts 10 First of all I would like to talk a little bit on respirators 11 If you all have your health minimum standards you will find 12 in Section B a discussion on respirators 13 The most important point you notice there is that the 14 respirators must be Bureau of Mines approved Now I have 15 for your perusal here pictures of all the respirators which 16 are Bureau of Mines approved and I will leave that up here 17 on the desk and if any of you are interested in it you can 18 come up after the meeting and look it over 19 The advantages of having respirators which must meet 20 with Bureau of Mines approval are obvious The respirators 21 then will be adequate and will give adequate protection and 22 are designed You will notice under the general requirements that ade- 23 24 quate protection is designed and it is recommended that the 16 25 respirators be comfortable 68k an . ws ae 1 In the following pages where more than one type of v respirator is mentioned the choice depends on the degree of 3 the hazard which you have at hand 4 I would like to say a few words about the lead hazard 5 again You have heard about this paint spray hazard and 6 about the fume hazard caused by welding lead painted surfaces 7 As you all probably know it is a very difficult job to 8 ventilate lead fumes down to the concentration which would not 9 cause lead poisoning The figure is .15 miligrams per tenth 10 of a cubio meter of air Now ten miligrams per cubic foot 11 of air is a concentration which none of you would believe to 12 be especially bad For instance upstairs morning in the 13 room the of concentration smoke in the air was probably about 14 five miligrams or possibly ten To expect people to beware 15 of a hazard when the concentration must be kept down to less 16 than tenths of a mmimeter is something that is almost 17 impossible to ask I suppose 18 We are insisting that respirators be Bureau of Mines 19 approved for lead fumes and I have here samples which the 20 two companies having approval have supplied me These are 21 MSA respirators There are four types here 22 This one has approval for metal fumes This one has 23 approval for metal fumes and is designed to fit under a 24 welder's hood They have also two other respirators here 25 one of which is designed to fit the face of women and there 69k oes = 10C 1 |) are also two respirators here which have not as yet the ap- 2 || proval of the Bureau of Mines for lead mists that is those 3 || caused by spray painting However these approvals are be- 4 lieved lieved to be forthcoming soon I will leave these respirators 5 || up here and you may come up after the meeting and look them 6 | over Willson Products have supplied us with three respirat- 7 ors two of which are designed for lead fumes and these are 00 || the respirators that are to be used in controlling the problem 9 || of lead fumes I will leave both of these up here and you 10 | can look at these after the meeting is over 11 In both types of respirators here we have replaceable 12 || paper fillers which are thrown away You all realize the 13 || advantage of having such a system It does not mean that you 14 || have to throw the complete respirator away You need only 15 || throw away a small felt or paper filler which is very in- 16 expensive 17 There are salesmen in attendance here from each of the 18 || companies There is Mr. Charlton from the Willson Products 19 and Mr. Mehaffey of Mine Safety Appliances and both of these 20 || gentlemen would be glad to discuss your respirator problems 21 || with you and tell you a little bit more about the respirators 22 || that are being shown here today 23 Now in connection with lead poisoning it is also - 24 necessary to do some type of air analysis or urinalysis to 25 || establish whether or not there is a hazard present 4 We have 129 Ok a laboratory set up on the East and West Coasts which can run through these analyses for you if you desire I have brought along with me a mimeographed sheet which describes the analytical methods of the determination of lead in both urine and blood and if there are any of you here who desire one of these you can get it after the meeting In connection with welding again I would like simply to say something about the nature of welding fumes when bare steel or black iron is welded The intense heat of the arc 10 vaporizes the metals and these oxidize in the air and are 11 constituents of the fumes There are also substances of an 12 organic nature which constitute part of the fume The color 13 of this fume is a brownish chocolate color I suppose all of 14 you have seen it at some time or other 15 Now in connection with welding there are some gases 16 formed Oxide of nitrogen and ozone are typical examples 17 The welders themselves of course notice the effect of these 18 fumes on them and there are two types of individuals in 19 general those who fear the worst is going to happen when they 20 breathe these welding fumes and there is the other extreme 21 the individual who does not think that anything could posH sibly happen to him when he breathes the fumes of welding 22 arcs and this type of individual is also a problem 23 In order to clear up the situation as to just how bad 24 25 conditions are we have designed a sampling instrument which 150 utilizes a piece of filter paper The instrument was designed by us in about two or three days It consists of a Sears Roebuck pump and a few other metal parts which are available in almost any machine shop If any of you desire you could have these pop guns or pump guns whatever you want to call them made up and then you would have a very rapid method of determining just how bad your fume conditions are Our standards were made on the basis of three strokes of the pump gun and I have here the standard colors which are 10 formed on the paper These are simply the stains of the 11 welding fumes and in practice all that is necessary is to 12 just take three strokes of the gun take the paper out and 13 compare it with the standard You then have an analysis in 14 just that much time You know exactly what the concentration 15 of fumes in the air is Since we have also set up standards 16 it is very simple to decide on the spot whether your air 17 conditions are below par or excellent or just what they are 18 The six men who are to go with Maritime Commission this 19 health program will each have such an instrument and they 20 could go through your shipyard with you and tell you in 21 fraction of a section just how good or bad your fume condi- 22 tions are 23 I would like to take a test over the welding aro itself 24 and show you the stain that was formed I imagine it would 25 be very much darker than any of theseI have These standards 4 72k 131 were prepared by welding in a fume chamber The air was kept in constant circulation and the concentrations of fume in the air were determined by standard methods and then by taking samples with the gun at intervals we arrived at this standard which is that of 30 milligrams of fume per cubic meter of air A demonstration here followed) MR EGE That was about one stroke of the pump and it is far in excess of anything you can see on these standards After the meeting you can all come up and take a look at the 10 pump that we have and see how it works and decide among 11 yourselves whether any of you would like to have such an 12 instrument in your possession 13 We have also developed one other instrument for sampling 14 fumes and air At present there are two methods of sampling 15 lead fumes zinc fumes and other metal oxide fumes Both of 16 these methods we felt were not good enough for our purposes 17 so we set out to develop a method which would be much simpler 18 and much easier to handle in the field It consists of a 19 vacuum cleaner pump an ordinary household piece of equip- 20 ment and a device for holding a piece of filter paper in a 21 funnel apparatus The air is simply drawn through the 22 filter paper and the fumes are collected on the paper 23 We ran some extensive tests on the collection efficiency 24 of this instrument for lead fumes The efficiencies were 25 extremely high and the instrument has manyiadvantages over 73k the present methods of collection 132 We have these instruments in both laboratories that is on each coast and with these we would make the fume determ inations I would like to show this equipment and show you how it works Demonstration continued) MR EGE On the second test we get this fume collected on the paper Now we have found this instrument to have a 10 very high collection efficiency for lead fumes and it will 11 work also equally as well for those of zinc or any other 12 metal fumes you come in contact with in the shipbuilding in- 13 dustry This is a device we have made and if any of you 14 care to look it over after the meeting you may do so 15 QUESTION After we do make up one of those how are we 16 to know what we are looking at 17 MR EGE As I said before it is not intended that each 18 of the safety engineers or each of the yards build this piece 19 of equipment In the first place it requires the work of 20 a chemist to determine just what the fume concentration is 21 and it would be impractical for the safety engineers of the 22 plants to do that type of work However with this other 23 sampler you need only a stain on a piece of paper to determine determine 24 just what your conditions are and that is what we recommend 25 QUESTION Are you prepared to give us those various 74k color charts CHAIRMAN DRINKER We will if you ask for them MR EGE As a matter of fact the color chart is prob- il. ably unnecessary because you will see if you come up later Cue, on the first standard has a stain on it which is just per- SHEP ceptible That was made with one stroke of the gun Con- sequently if you went out with one of these instruments and just used one strike and got a stain on the paper or one that was just barely perceptible your conditions would be 10 good The difference between that one and the one on the 11 end are easily remembered by anyone So a whole series of 12 these standards would not be necessary for you 13 relation DR REIKE Is that standard in to some par 14 ticular number or just nuisance dust in general or what 15 MR EGE The fume was generated in a welding chamber 16 It was done on black iron with standard welding rods We 17 have tried three or four other rods and the stain on all of 18 them is identical We just go out in the yard and use it 19 under the conditions that we find That is the set that 20 we have so far arrived at in offering a service to the Mari- 21 time Commission yards We are set up to analyze for any 22 fume dust mist gas or vapor which causes occupational 23 diseases 24 QUESTION Mr. Ege you have been mentioned here the 25 possibility of lead fumes from welding on painted red 75k lead surfaces It has been called to our attention that several cases have resulted from the use of hot rivets on holes that had been drilled and the red lead had penetrated into the inside of the hole Considerable study was made at the time that it was found and it was found that there was no particular reason for using red lead It is more of a custom than anything else and it seems to me that one of the things that might develop from this meeting is the fact that a recommendation be made possibly to the Maritime Com- 10 mission Construction Section that a lacquer which is equally 11 good as a preservative for steel plate could be used in place 12 of the red lead that is used supposedly as a preservative 13 While it does act as a preservative I do not think it is 14 essential 15 MR EGE Dr. Drinker took that subject up with the 16 doctors before the safety engineers came down and he will 17 speak a little more about that later 18 I might point out that not only welding on lead painted 19 surfaces but any operation at all in which terrific heat is 20 involved will vaporize the lead and create just as serious 21 a hazard as welding will 22 CHAIRMAN DRINKER There is nothing we welcome more than 23 to have this organization take the position that early paint- 24 ing with read lead when something else could be used should 25 be stopped and to make a recommendation that the red lead 76K 13C H painting be avoided If this group will take a strong posi- tion on that I think it will have a very definite effect 3 The easiest way to get out of this possible lead poisoning is 4 to avoid the lead painting if something else can be done in- 5 stead and it would seem to me such a thing as Mr. Kaye has suggested is a very logical way out of it We do not want to make analyses any more than you want to have them made We Would like to avoid this lead hazard The easiest way to avoid it is not to use the lead until after the welding has 10 been done 11 Now gentlemen when Mr. Ross was discussing ventilation 12 it was asked if on this Section D there were any musts or 13 shalls There definitely are and I can point out a few 14 of them 15 On Page D on the local exhausts we have specifications 16 in the first paragraph suggesting what the fan's capacity 17 should be Designedly we do not name the fan It does not 18 make any difference what you use as long as it will do the i} 19 work We suggest there if you get a fan for a local exhaust 20 that it be capable of drawing 200 c.f.m. through the flexible 21 hose and again a little further down where general ventila- 22 tion is discussed under B the second paragraph that two- 23 line paragraph is desirable sometimes to supply a quantity 24 of fresh air into the double bottom Here a 2,000 c.f.m. unit 25 may be used 77k 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 136 Two paragraphs below that again there are some definite figures giving capacities of the fan Finally in next to the last paragraph the final sen- tence it says A minimum of 400 c.f.m. per welder shall be supplied to a given working space such as a deep tank when | general ventilation is used alone" The question has been brought up as to what these welding fumes may do and what the health hazard really is There are plenty of instances now to show that welding even on black iron in a confined space is a bad practice and an un- healthful one The reasons may be due to the metal fumes They are probably due to a combination of the metal fumes and the slight amount of toxic gas which we get Accidents from welding and serious illness from welding on black iron are very rare very rare indeed By and large welding in an open space is not unhealthful This demonstration would have been a perfectly good example It would not have been unhealthful in any way for the welder to weld here without any ventilation You can see the same thing being done in shops practically all over the country with no bad results but that is avery different matter from putting four or five welders in a deep tank with no ventilation When you get on galvanized iron and are welding in double bottoms where galvanized piping is being installed the men are breathing zinc oxide and you can get the chills and fever and you will 4 78k 137 Anybody will get them If the man is exposed and breathing it he will get them But they are very very easy to draw off But to say that it can be done with impunity without ventilation is absurd because it cannot The men will have trouble They always have and always will as long as they breathe the zinc oxide fumes DR RIEKE The point is brought up what is a confined space in a Liberty boat The question arises is it in the hold or is it in the foredeck exclusively and shaft alley and 10 double bottoms Just how big is a confined space That is 11 a question I do not ask you for an exact definition I ask 12 for a relatively close definition That comes up all the time 13 Some man down in the hold says that it is too smoky in there 14 for him Now is that your idea of a confined space or what is it 15 16 CHAIRMAN DRINKER The betting is pretty good if you 17 look at it and see that it is good and thick with smoke that 18 it is too smoky 19 DR RIEKE Would that cause chronic disease or would 20 you care to say CHAIRMAN DRINKER No I would bet against it if it was 21 black iron I would bet against the chronic aspect 22 DR RIEKE It might cause acute tracheobronchitis 23 CHAIRMAN DRINKER Definitely 24 DR RIEKE Not enough to make him seriously ill 25 79k 130 CHAIRMAN DRINKER I will agree Mr. Roche asked that the safety engineers group please remain here as he wishes to continue his discussion in this room We will leave the equipment we have here and I hope very much that the doctors if they want to stay for the safety engineers meeting will do so They will be very welcome However those of you fellows who would like to adjourn to one of the other rooms so that we can continue this discussion informally may do so 10 QUESTION Just before you do my question was about 11 the shalls and musts et cetera That on the first page 12 of Section D -- not necessarily the remainder of it but the 13 first page -- pertaining to the personnel of the department 14 and ventilation standards - has that been approved as yet 15 CHAIRMAN DRINKER That was not meant to be in the 16 shall state We put that out as a feeler to see your re- 17 action There is nothing uniform at all in the way ventila- 18 tion is handled in the yards If we could get a semblance 19 of uniformity within some limits of common sense we would 20 like to do it We think the ventilation ought to be under 21 the safety department but we did not feel like putting it in 22 as a must or shall In some cases we know good yards 23 where they have good ventilation arrangements now and they 24 are not the same as we have suggested here If they are 25 good and working we certainly do not intend to interfere 301 a , ~ 1 || and that is the reason they are not in the shall 2 QUESTION It is in the shall here 3 CHAIRMAN DRINKER Let say we are starting from 4 |} scratch then 5 MR RING Before the doctors leave I want to ask a -- couple of questions I always have to get right down on the 7 beam on this thing 8 Is it definitely understood there is a complete agree- 9 || ment here as far as the medical side is concerned on the 10 minimum medical standards except those things the committee 11 12 13 14 15 is going to handle which I understand is placement examinations and periodic check and the addition of shortage of physicians the yards If it isn't let us hear it right now and if we need more time let us take more time to go in and examine anything we need Let us not rush 16 anything across How about it now I will count three and 17 if I do not hear a dissent by the time three comes down I 18 will take it for granted that it is understood 19 DR SPENCER Gentlemen in the South - I do not know 20 anything about the rest of the country - there can be no 21 question about the venereal diseases being the most import- 22 ant point in these yards In Savannah one of the yards took 23 || blood tests on all of the employees which were approximately 24 50 per cent white and 50 per cent colored and found 18 per 25 cent positive Blk 19 140 H 10 11 12 13 The federal government tells us we can get from ~ seven to nine cases of gonorrhea for each case of syphilis It is a matter of common knowledge to everybody that syphilis is a debilitating condition and gonorrhea although more briefly is a disabling condition for a few days In many cases the Department of Health is urgently anxious to help us in all ways they can If they can get a little help they will come into the yards and establish treatment centers for a minimum of cost and do a maximum amount of good and I wonder if we could go on record of asking the Maritime Commission to give a little consideration to the local health departments to enable them to take this problem off our hands 14 MR RING Am I correct or incorrect that the Public 15 Health Service is conducting a nationwide campaign along that 16 line that they have set up clinics at various points for 17 treatment at various places It is my recollection that that 18 is one of the reasons we skirted clear of the venereal dis- 19 ease proposition when we were drawing up these standards was 20 that there had already been set afoot by Dr. Parren a pretty 21 widespread campaign Am I wrong in that 22 DR SPENCER You are not wrong in that There are in- 23 numerable treatment centers available to people who will go 24 there and get treatment but a great many of the shipyard 25 workers commute long distances and a great many of them tell 82k Pe od us they are unable to meet the hours in which these clinics are held open and the length of time it takes a man to leave the job and go to one of these treatment centers and come back is unreasonable CHAIRMAN DRINKER How would it be if we communicated with the Public Health Service and suggested to them that in 10 11 12 13 14 any yard where it appears there is a necessity for treatment centers to take some action along that line I am sure the Public Health Service has been cooperating with us in such a way that they will probably do everything in their power to help out along that line It will be definitely understood then that will be the procedure in any yard where they feel there is a definite indication that there is a need existing for a treatment center in the yard to ask the Public Health 15 Service to do something about setting that up I will do 16 that as soon as we get word in from the various yards on that 17 DR RIEKE My only suggestion on that is you are not 18 in a position to carry through in many localities on that 19 program I would simply indicate to them our willingness to 20 cooperate with the Public Health programs No one will argue 21 that venereal disease needs control but many local physi 22 cians in many of the areas in the country feel that shipyard 23 workers are in a good position to take care of the treatment 24 In other words the Maritime Commission is not in a position 25 to say to any local area You must do thus and so about 83k = / = venereal disease" 142 2 MR CLARENCE MAYHEW Labor Management Marine Ship 3 || California What about treatment of the common cold I 4 was upstairs in the safety engineers and I wondered if this 5 group had discussed the treatment of the common cold in the 6 Maritime Commission yards It seems to me on the West Coast 7 where we have so much rain and working outside that that is 8 one of the biggest problems I was wondering if it had been 9 brought up before this committee 10 MR RING I will ask Dr. Drinker to answer that be- 11 cause I was up at the civil engineers most of the time 12 CHAIRMAN DRINKER We did not discuss here the common 13 cold at all or any illness other than industrial Frankly 14 if we can stay out of it why we would like to The import- 15 || ance of it I will admit 16 MR MAYHEW The workers would like to stay out of it 17 too 18 CHAIRMAN DRINKER So would all the rest of us and our 19 wives and our children I have not seen a single industrial 4 20 || program yet that copes with the common cold in a way they 21 are especially proud of We cannot answer that I mean we 22 have not anything especial to hold out for you 23 MR MAYHEW Some of the aircraft factories prescribed 24 || some programs CHAIRMAN DRINKER 25 Not with any signal success 4 a 34k Ee _ ; ~ 143 1 DR CROFT A man from Abbott & Company came around to 2 | see me the other day and he had a folder in which they 3 || claimed large reductions in the lost days from colds by the 4 || vaccinebust there is no way in the world of making that man 5 || take them He is to take one a day for seven days and then 6 one twice a week for the rest of the winter and the chances 7 are they throw them away It is very unsatisfactory from 8 my experience fi CHAIRMAN DRINKER From a health standpoint frankly I 10 do not think the Maritime Commission and the Navy would get 11 away with it I would hate to see us try it I do not think 12 we could get anywhere Maybe we could 13 DR SPENCER One of the questions that troubles us a 14 great deal is tetanus especially in the yards where they 15 build concrete ships and they get deep punctured wounds all 16 the time The administration of the tetanic serum is a 17 dangerous procedure in some cases especially where it has 18 been repeated time after time Moreover it is a question of 19 how long the administration lasts from a prophylactic dose 20 I wonder if Dr. Drinker would avise us of the possibility of 21 dealing with tetanio immunization that is an anti 22 tetanus toxoid and not a serum 23 CHAIRMAN DRINKER I do not see how we can evade that 24 lone I would like to We have not considered that I think 25 very possibly we should have I would like to have a chance 35k to think of that I cannot answer that right off the bat as to what we ought to do I am frank to confess I think we ought to do something DR RIEKE I would suggest there are all sorts of things of that sort that are local problems and the Maritime Com- mission cannot attempt to take a definite stand on them For instance our fluoroscopic heads were removed from our yards a few days ago on account of some unfortunate ac- cidents at Los Angeles At any rate I would say they con- 10 sider the use of toxoid if it is enough of a problem 11 At Portland it is not We have thought about it and 12 discussed it but have not felt that we as a prophylactic 13 measure could even go into the idea of toxoid So again I 14 feel that is a local problem which the Maritime Commission 15 would be looking for trouble on if they tried to generalize 16 too widely 17 CHAIRMAN DRINKER I think it would be a local problem 18 If we wanted to give any such immunization it would be extra- 19 ordinarily difficult to give it to all of the men in the 20 yard There would not be any way of enforcing it It is not 21 a problem such as the army or navy have where they are hand- 22 ling recruits We can profit from their experience but we cannot do it the way they are doing and we could not get 23 | 24 away with it 25 MR HAL C. FRAZIER Houston Shipbuilding Corporation 6k Houston Texas In Section C it says An eye flash shall be treated only by the doctor" ; CHAIRMAN DRINKER It says or by methods prescribed by him does it not It says that somewhere MR FRAZIER That is in Section C effects on workers CHAIRMAN DRINKER That could be modified to use only treatments that are supervised or prescribed by the doctor That is a good point I agree that ought to be changed We will change it 10 MR BARON D. SNIDER Marine Ship Corporation Sanalito 11 California I am not speaking as a medical man Doctor but 12 I am advised by some of the industrial doctors that one of 13 the difficulties in treating eye flashes is that the men do 14 not experience these symptoms until perhaps in the evening 15 when they are far away from the medical center of the yards 16 The The result is that they go to the general hospital or to a 17 hospital which perhaps has not concentrated on the industrial 18 arc flash and gives a relief which is not only temporary but 19 actually irritates the condition itself and by the time the 20 workman comes into the shipyard the next morning his condi- 21 tion is aggravated and it takes twice as long for him to get 22 over it At Marine our medical director has reported that 23 that has happened quite frequently because many of their not workers do 24 live in quite proximity to the yard I am 25 wondering if any sort of action can be taken which would per- 37k 146 haps set forth a general procedure for these institutions to follow for the treatment in such | cases CHAIRMAN DRINKER If you will look at the standards you will see that we purposely have not prescribed treatment in detail in any single one of them We prefer not to do so if we can We would rather leave that up to the individual physician The yards by and large are getting the best medical help they can From the inspections we made they were good in our opinion 10 MR SNIDER We found a serious problem in our particu- 11 lar yard There were many men who were going to outside 12 sources for treatment when they wake up at night 13 CHAIRMAN DRINKER You mean because they were away from the yard 15 MR SNIDER Yes they have not access to it at that 16 time of night 17 CHAIRMAN DRINKER I think that is a point we can dis- 18 cuss in the medical group tomorrow and we will 19 MR SMITH I have one question please on Page D 20 You spoke a while ago about ventilation in confined spaces 21 Three or four sentences there in that are very applicable 22 to decrease an accident from breathing fumes et cetera and 23 the last one about the side plate has that been taken up 24 the side plate being left off Has that been taken up with 25 the Maritime Commission DUA HALTUMIMIN DRINAEK what we round is as you go around in the various yards in some places it was all right to take off the side plates and in others not The Maritime Commission itself has no objection to that They leave it up to the individual yards MR SMITH That is a definite ruling from the Maritime CHAIRMAN DRINKER They leave it up to the yard MR SMITH Well how about cutting a hole through In other words is it a standard size or does a man have 10 to stoop to go through or crawl over and also additional 11 excess holes for the hose 12 CHAIRMAN DRINKER We found the same thing there too 13 that ruling would vary with the yards They leave a great 14 deal of leeway on that 15 MR RELLER What can the Maritime Commission do to help 16 us having the Selective Service taking the local doctor from 17 our town We talked in the medical group about the trouble 18 we are going to have getting doctors to come in to meet this 19 personnel standard we are setting up 20 CHAIRMAN DRINKER That is the very thing we are going 21 to take up and put in a resolution tomorrow in a general meet- 22 ing We will answer that definitely What the result will 23 24 be we also hope MR RING I have not heard any objection to your general 25 medical standards except as noted here in one or two instances 89k 148 Now if that is the deal it is the deal it Now Mr. Roche wants to get on with the safety side of Are there any objections DR RIEKE I have one more On Section C under Flash burns I take exception --- and I may be wrong -- to the statement that A flash is a surface eye burn resulting from even momentary unprotected exposure to the welding arc I object to that use from even momentary unprotected ex- posure It is a small point but one of the points I have 10 run into repeatedly is the misconception that most arc flash- 11 ing occurs from one bright arc and the man runs into the 12 first aid station and says Give me some of those magic 13 drops to prevent any trouble We put eye drops in their 14 eye and he goes home and has no trouble He says BOBB 15 those are certainly swell drops for preventing eye trouble 16 We have through the year had a lot of patients come in to 17 get medicine to prevent them developing symptoms I think 18 that should be changed to A flash is a surface eye burn 19 resulting from undue exposure or unexpected exposure to 20 the welding arc 21 MR RING Do you think even momentary exposure should 22 be eliminated Why don't you be on the safe side and say 23 from exposure Say exposure and you are safe as you can 24 be Isn't that what the scientists always want to do They 25 want to be on the safe side so they make the language so 90k = = a 149 149 149 1 vague that nobody understands it 2 DR McCOY Something that is not covered here is the 3 practice of nurses removing foreign bodies They are not 4 || legally so qualified to carry on that operation Will they 5 || be qualified because of the practice under war or are they 6 going to be held down technically and slapped behind the 7 || bars 8 MR RING Dr. Drinker here is looking for a section 9 || that he says states that nurses are prohibited from that 10 DR McCOY As a matter of fact on the West Coast that 11 is the practice 12 MR RING Dr. Drinker in a very nice and polite and 13 || snaky way wants to know whether you read the third paragraph | 14 under Section C that part that says For use of safety 15 departments in shipyards a guide for prevention of indus- 16 trial disease in shipyards where it says Foreign bodies 17 || in the eye shall be removed under the doctor's orders only 18 || and by methods he has prescribed" 19 DR McCOY That does not cover it If I stand over a 20 nurse and tell him he is to remove that foreign body from 21 the eye that does not cover it because he is not legally 22 || qualified even though I tell him to to do it MR RING You mean if I get a cinder in my eye I am 23 24 supposed not to ask anybody to put the end of a handkerchief in to get it out unless it is a doctor 25 91k ae 150 1 DR McCOY Embedded corneal bodies where he is using N || an instrument 3 MR RING It only says here foreign bodies in the eye 4 || shall be removed only under the doctor's orders or by methods 5 | he has prescribed If it is not embedded certainly the 6 || doctor can ask somebody else to remove that If it is en- 7 bedded certainly the doctor will give no such orders as that 8 || and if it is done by methods by him prescribed certainly you 9 || can say that if they are embedded you shall not do it I 10 || think it is covered Let us interpret it as if it is covered 11 || anyway 12 We will take it for granted then that these things 13 || are the consensus of the group subject to the reports of 14 the committee to come in because we want to know that every- 15 || body has had a chance to hammer them as much as they want 16 I hope that Dr. McCoy will not take my remarks along 17 || that line as being directed in any manner personally 18 || is a very good point to be brought up That | 19 I want to thank you all very much indeed for the ex- 20 || cellent and really genuine interest you are putting into this 21 ji thing I am really getting proud of this whole thing I 22 | think we have got something here that if it is properly car- 23 | ried through it will be of a tremendous benefit to the ship- 24 building industry and I only regret that we have such a 25 || limited time in which to operate but everything is moving so 92k aritime om - Man nd Tues ft ses 152 fast these days that if we take up much time we wind up behind the eight ball so far as our friends across the sea are concerned I want to express my thanks to all of the medical men who have been in attendance here and for all of the work that you have done Tihe meeting adjourned 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 UNITED STATES MARITIME COMMISSION AND UNITED STATES NAVY MEETING IN REGARD TO MINIMUM REQUIREMENTS FOR INDUSTRIAL : 6 HEALTH AND SAFETIYN SHIPYARDS : 7 Held in the American Room and Century Room Hotel 9 LaSalle Chicago Illinois on Monday December 7 1942 10 at two o'clock p m Mr. John Roche National Safety Council 11 Chicago Illinois presiding 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 -000- 21 22 23 24 25 PROCEEDINGS 105 CHAIRMAN ROCHE This is not an informal meeting but if you will recall I told you this morning to take your hair down and your shoes off and let us go to town We are going to read over the item No. 1 and we are going to read them over one at a time We have about two hours to do it be- cause as soon as we finish here we are supposed to go down and see the welding and ventilation demonstration in the American Room So let us keep our eye on the clock and 10 discuss down to the point where it is useful 11 Now as you rise for any point of discussion please 12 give your name your company and your city That is for 13 the record so that you can get due credit for any sugges- 14 tions that you might make 15 How many of you have read this over 16 Quite a few 17 Are you agreed that we may skip the introduction which 18 is Item 19 Is there any objection to that None 20 Now what we would like above all else is to turn out 21 something informative but we do not want to turn out an 22 encyclopedia but I say again that we do want all of the 23 things that you now know are causing accidents in shipyards 24 to be included in the set of minimum standards that will 25 control accidents And if there is anything left out please 3hs ae . won 154 1 let us know about it or if there is anything included in 2 || here that you think should not be included please bring 3 that out 4 Now you will remember that we had this previewed and 5 prediscussed by a committee of 13 men from shipyards all over 6 | the nation 7 The first paragraph is No. 2 managements part 8 2. Management Part 9 2.1 It is absolutely essential if a successful acci- || 10 dent prevention program is to be installed and operated || 11 that top plant management take an active and interested part 12 in the work The same supervision given any other important important 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 activity in the shipyard shall be given the safety program 2.2 The responsibility of management in so far as industrial safety is concerned shall be considered to in- clude 2.21 The provision of a reasonably safe working en- vironment 2.22 Training of employees for safety 2.23 Establishment of an accident record and report- ing system _ 2.24 The appointment where necessary of a safety engineer or a safety director and staff to install main- tain and properly supervise an accident prevention program 2.25 The issuance of instructions to all division 155 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 or department heads foremen leader or leadingmen or to any persons in a supervisory capacity that they are considered responsible for accidents which involve employees working under their direction and that they are required to comply with all of the provisions of the accident prevention program in effect in the shipyard We will go right through that section and we will come back to it and ask for a discussion 2.26 An active and interested participation in safety through a Review of and executive action on safety records b Frequent attendance at safety meetings c Acknowledgement of good or bad departmental safety records through personal interviews with department heads d General letters for bulletin board posting addressed to employees and discussions of good or poor yard accident record e By setting a good example Goggles safety shoes hard hats and other necessary protective equipment should be used by any executive who exposes himself to yard operations Now may I have any comments on that section please Do not hesitate please to get up If you think it should contain more or should contain less please let me know MR DAVE KAYE Kaiser Company Incorporated Richmond Shipyard No. 3 Richmond California Under Section 1.3 it 5hs 159 says In all cases the use of the words shall or must indicates that that compliance with that section of the mini- mum requirements is mandatory Why wouldn't it be a good example under 2.26 Section A instead of saying necessary protective equipment should be used say protective equip- ment shall be used CHAIRMAN ROCHE You are absolutely right That word should should be changed to the word shall Are there any other corrections 10 MR HAL FRAZIER Houston Shipbuilding Corporation 11 Houston Texas Under 2.26 why couldn't there be in- 12 stead of frequent attendance at safety meetings be changed 13 to read That management shall be required to attend 14 CHAIRMAN ROCHE I agree with you on that but we have 15 got to remember one thing We are building ships and we 16 have yards full of busy executives That does not mean that 17 they are excused entirely from attending safety meetings 18 but on the other hand it is not necessary for them to attend 19 every safety meeting to demonstrate an active interest 20 I stumble a little over the frequency I would like 21 to say regular rather than frequent 22 MR FRAZIER Well let us put regular in there in 23 place of frequent 24 CHAIRMAN ROCHE Is that satisfactory Arethere any 25 comments on the use of the word regular in place of the 6hs iuc 1 word frequent Under 2.26 I know for example that you could not get Henry Kaiser to attend many safety meetings although he does attend them when he is around MR H. R. GREENLEE Houston Shipbuilding Corporation: In regard to Kaiser every 2.26 time he I wonder if you really mean walks down in the yard has that Henry to shift into safety shoes CHAIRMAN ROCHE You are damned right I do Anybody 10 here think that Henry Kaiser should not do that 11 MR GEORGE F. SCHMOHL Alabama Drydock and Shipbuilding 12 Company Mobile Alabama In Section E then is it under- 13 stood that every person working in the yard should wear 14 safety shoes et cetera 15 CHAIRMAN ROCHE Yes and if it is a case where they 16 would be exposed to head injuries they should be protected 17 For example if a person is working where they are not 18 exposed to head injuries he does not have to wear a hard 19 hat but if that person is from time to time in a hazardous 20 area a hard hat should be used 21 And by the way that includes insurance engineers 22 Maritime consultants and anybody else who comes in there 23 I nearly got my brains knocked out in one shipyard because 24 there were no hard hats 25 Are there any other questions or comments If not we 158 will move on to the next item Section 3 Safety Director and Staff 3.1 A safety director title may be safety engineer safety inspector et cetera and staff shall be appointed for all shipyards having 1,500 employees or more See section 3.25 for duties and responsibilities The safety director shall report to and be responsible to the general | manager MR R. R. CLARK Pennsylvania Shipyards Beaumont 10 Texas I question as to whether or not the staff function 11 should be under general manager I think a better word would 12 be top management In our yards specifically I do not 13 know how it is with the rest of the yards but the general 14 manager is principally interested in production As a matter 15 of fact he is head of the production department and as 16 such I am wondering as to whether or not safety would 17 receive from the general manager in his capacity as produc- 18 tion chief the interest it deserves 19 I think safety should be a staff function and any 20 recommendations of the safety department should come through 21 top management through the line of authority to the general 22 manager if he is the production chief 23 CHAIRMAN ROCHE That is a very good point 24 MR BARON D. SNIDER Marine Ship Corporation San Anlito 25 California I beg to differ with the remark that has just been made 159 I believe one of the difficulties that safety has its proper place in production and especially since the outbreak of the war I am not citing my own company as being the acme of a safety program how it should be run et cetera but we have found by setting the safety department up as a division of the production department that safety has be- come inseparably wrapped up with production and by having the safety department report directly to the production department you have full compliance and responsibility 10 CHAIRMAN ROCHE That is the other side of it I think 11 what the argument is here the definition of your term top 12 management and the fact that general manager in one 13 plant may not fulfill the functions of a general manager in plant 14 your What we need then is a definition of what we 15 mean by top management or by general manager Will you 16 agree with that 17 MR CLARK I believe it specifically mentioned or 18 that he specifically requested it be connected with produc- 19 tion and he doubted whether the safety division setup under 20 production would be as essential as it would outside of pro- 21 duction I believe it is more effective outside of the pro- 22 duction department 23 CHAIRMAN ROCHE What is your suggestion for the change 24 Will you suggest a change 25 MR CLARK I do not have any specific change to make on 9hs oe 2 __ a ee, ; 160 1 | it other than my original suggestion which was top manage- ~ 2 | ment It was brought out this morning without the coopera- 3 tion of top management we are not going to do anything with || 4 the safety program and to be absolutely frank in think in || 5 order to properly institute a safety program we are going to 8 have to have the brass hats in on the thing 7 In other words it is going to have to come from the 8 top of the heap and I also seriously question whether or 9 not the question came up about the removal of a hazard that 10 would probably slow up production a little bit which way 11 the production chief would lean His interest is principally 12 in production and I am thoroughly convinced that our praise 13 there should be top management I believe if we use the 14 term top management that that would be sufficiently in- 15 clusive 16 . MR SNIDER I think that would still leave it up to 17 us to be interpreted 18 19 CHAIRMAN ROCHE You mean by the top management the highest 20 management MR Yes 21 CLARK CHAIRMAN ROCHE All right let us say in the Kaiser 22 Shipbuilding Company that Mr. Kaiser looks upon safety in 23 24 his yard as his responsibility as much as anybody else's and he holds all of the general managers in his yard equally 10hs 161 responsible not only for production but for safety too I agree with you that there should be some definition perhaps and if you would be willing to offer one we would be delighted to have it know of No one has ever done that that I | MR GREENLEE Why use the wording then CHAIRMAN ROCHE All right then you give us a better one We are trying to make it as good as possible MR S. T. SMITH Consolidated Steel Corporation Los 10 Angeles California I heartily concur with the first 11 gentleman In our particular plant we are dealing with the 12 treasurer and assistant president of the company and it is 13 a healthy situation to know that you are with the top manage- 14 ment more so than with your production management and I would 15 say top management instead of production 16 CHAIRMAN ROCHE Would you agree with the term highest 17 operating executive That brings it down in some cases to 18 a superintendent 19 MR SNIDER Aren't the companies under the Maritime 20 Commission required to have what is known as an executive 21 committee on safety 22 CHAIRMAN ROCHE Yes 23 MR SNIDER Well why wouldn't they report directltyo 24 the body that is supposed to be responsible for that 25 CHAIRMAN ROCHE Because the executive committee is not llhs 162 operative We want an individual thing We want it brought brought under the eyes of the man who is responsible for the profit and loss in the company or the men Perhaps I should have said the man | MR GRAHAM Delta Shipbuilding Company New Orleans Louisiana I would suggest that the top management be comprised of representatives from the general superintendent or whoever has control or holds the title in charge of pro- duction and executive president or president of the 10 company as top management and the safety engineer All 11 three are interested in production economy and safety I 12 think that could comprise the top management very satisfact- 13 orily rather than an individual who is interested in 14 particular department 15 CHAIRMAN ROCHE You got a good point with one excep- 16 tion the safety engineers are employees of the shipbuilding 17 company rather than of the Maritime Commission 18 MR GRAHAM They are charged by Washington with the 19 responsibility for safety in the yard in which they operate 20 aren't they 21 CHAIRMAN ROCHE Yes the resident plant engineer 22 MR GRAHAM Yes the resident plant engineers are 23 charged for the safety in the yards 24 MR GREENLEE He is an officio member of the execu- 25 tive safety committee by Maritime Commission order 12hs 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR GEORGE F. SCHMOHL Speaking of resident plant engineers I take it that you mean Maritime engineers What about the Navy CHAIRMAN ROCHE In the Navy the same thing would hold true I do not know frankly exactly on that but I can inquire Do we have a resident engineer in the Navy Yard COMMANDER CARLSON Each engineer in the Navy Yard operates directly under the management MR CLARK On this top management thing the gentleman back here from the Delta Shipbuilding Company New Orleans spoke about a certain procedure that should be followed That is the line of authority from top management My con- ception of top management includes all of the corporate officers and those staff officers performing the function of management and how this safety department gets up to the top management should be left to the individual shipyard to whatever operating practice would be most suitabl foer that particular yard CHAIRMAN ROCHE Now because we are pressed for time I know it is getting late and this is your set of standards and so we can get a definition that will be satisfactory to the group on this we will appoint a committee to go into that matter I am going to appoint Mr. Clark Mr. Snider and the gentleman from Houston to formulate a definition that will fit under paragraph 3.1 and report on that at this 13hs 164 164164 meeting tomorrow morning Mr. Clark will be chairman of that committee MR DESJARDINES Navy Department Washington D. C. | Why not use the highest ranking executive CHAIRMAN ROCHE I will ask the committee to take that under advisement I will drop that matter now and continue with the balance of the material By the way I meant to put on that committee Mr. Graham instead of the gentleman from Houston and I am going to add 10 Dave Kaye 11 3.2 The staff in the safety department in addition to director 12 the safety shall consist of 13 3.21 An assistant safety director in yards having 5,000 14 employees or more 15 3.22 One safety engineer safety inspector for each 16 additional 3,000 employees 17 Example If a yard has 35,000 employees there would be 18 required a safety director and an assistant plus 10 safety 19 inspectors 20 3.23 The staff of engineers shall be distributed over 21 the three shifts in proportion to the number of employees on 22 each shift 23 3.24 One clerk and stenographer for the first 5,000 24 employees and one clerk for each additional 7,500 employees 25 It is not to be assumed that the time of safety inspectors 14hs och ane 166 1 or the safety directors can be spent on clinical detail 2 All office functions while adequately supervised by the | 3 safety director should be carried on by clerks so the great- 4 est possible amount of time of the safety director and his 5 staff may be spent in the shipyard B MR GRAHAM I think it is entirely inadequate The National Safety Council offers the broadest experience of 8 any organization which we know and they have the only real 8 experience to offer and they never suggest that there be as 10 many as one man trying to handle 3,000 It is a job almost 11 | impossible We are doing a war job with production as the 12 paramount issue and the management is not going to be able 13 to give us the time necessary to follow through with the 14 educational work we need Therefore I think that we should 15 be suggesting one man to a thousand as a minimum 16 CHAIRMAN ROCHE I would like to hear some more discus- 17 sion on that 18 MR H. E. PACKARD Los Angeles Shipbuilding and Dry- 19 . dock Corporation Something like that would create a 20 terrific effect upon us and would work a considerable hard21 ship on a lot of us For example if we have 8,000 men that 22 will only give us two men We will say we have 8,000 men divided up into three shifts and so how can you put two men 24 in three shifts 25 CHAIRMAN ROCHE The answer is at least You have got 7! 15hs eS _ _ 7 160 H to be logical about it If you have got three shifts you 2 need three men 3 MR PACKARD I do not think we should have anything 4 j| like that because in most of them they have been staffed 5 for some time I know that I have more men than that and 6 some of these economical heads of departments are apt to get 7 the idea that we have got too many and are going to get || 8 ambitious and ask us to cut down our staff I had to fight 9 very hard to get my men to the present level and I would not 10 want to lose them at this time 11 CHAIRMAN ROCHE What is your recommendation think 12 MR PACKARD I that it should be one man to 2500 13 or one man to 1500 14 CHAIRMAN ROCHE These figures are the consensus of the 15 group meeting we had here in Chicago and they are their 16 figures 17 MR SAM T. SMITH Consolidated Steel Corporation Los 18 Angeles California Again that imposes a penalty on us 19 who have a functioning organization that has maybe one man 20 to a thousand and I would say At least one safety engineer I 21 to 1,000 men 22 CHAIRMAN POCHE Please understand that this is a mini- 23 mum I emphasized that several times that these are mini- 24 mum standards and one thing we have all got to realize is 25 this That it is all right to want 25 or 30 safety engineers 15hs 167 and it is all right to try to get them but it is a very difficult job to actually get them They do not grow these days MR GRAHAM I simply maintain that the minimum require- ment is not adequate to function properly I think that your minimum is too high CHAIRMAN ROCHE I agree with you MR GRAHAM I think it is too high because it is impossible to operate with the number that you state here 10 MR R. J. BEHLEY Travelers Insurance Company The 11 Service and Supply Department of the Government is request- 12 ing one to 1500. That might help in standardizing this idea 13 of Government control 14 MR CARTER KENDALL Bethelhem Steel Company Bethlehem 15 Pennsylvania The one thing you overlook is the length of 16 time a yard has been operating Most of our yards have been 17 operating for quite a few years andproduction people are 18 pretty well trained We do not need as many as one to a 19 thousand in some places If you make that a minimum then 20 you work a hardship on us 21 CHAIRMAN ROCHE In spite of the fact your yard be 22 operating a long while the question of increase of employ- unexperienced 23 ment and bringing in new workers is something 24 to consider and also the losing of your regular production 25 personnel That all has to be considered and so there is 17hs 168 1 something in this business of increasing perhaps safety 2 supervision Would you still hold that view with that in 3 mind MR KENDALL Yes I think so CHAIRMAN ROCHE What would be your suggestion MR KENDALL I would say about 1500 CHAIRMAN ROCHE One to 1500. That seems to be the con- 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 sensus of the group MR WALTER J. CONLON St. John's River Shipbuilding Company Jacksonville Florida The thing that puzzles me is the clarification of the purpose of this booklet It seems that there is a difference of opinion as to the purpose of this book Is this to be a set of standards that we adopt or is this merely to be a guide to possibly refer to at intervals or is management going to adopt this CHAIRMAN ROCHE This is a set of standards to be adopted as a minimum MR CONLON By the safety department CHAIRMAN ROCHE By each shipyard by management and the safety department as a minimum requirement and it out- lines only minimum requirements MR PACKARD I think that the 5,000 is a little high It would probably help a lot of us if that was brought down to around 3,000 to begin with CHAIRMAN ROCHE I was wondering why nobody thought of 18hs that 169 MR PACKARD If you were going to put in a starting figure of 5,000 men you can use two shifts and if you have a safety director and one assistant that will be tough I think we should cut that down to at least 3,000 and if not 3,000 to possibly 2500. I am more inclined to 2500 CHAIRMAN ROCHE Well would you say this Change that figure to 3,000 and then under paragraph 3.21 have it read this way 10 An assistant safety director in yards having 3,000 11 employees or more except that there shall always be at 12 least one safety engineer per shift Is that all right 13 MR PACKARD Yes 14 CHAIRMAN ROCHE Is that satisfactory that we adopt the 15 figure of 3,000 for the initial and 1500 for the final 16 MR SINNOTT Are we talking now about shipbuilding or 17 What If you change that to safety engineer on each shift 18 you might have alittle difficulty with a small job of only 19 ten or fifteen men 20 CHAIRMAN ROCHE Well you have got to be logical and 21 reasonable about this whole thing 22 MR SINNOTT You might have thirty or forty ships in 23 the yard and you might have none of them in the actual 24 building of a ship 25 MR GRAHAM The theory of a good safety program is that 19hs 170 the foremen and the leadermen take an active part Under the production conditions which we are operating today the foreman does not play that part and for one man to have to do the selling job and the educational work for fifteen hundred I repeat that that is almost an impossibility CHAIRMAN ROCHE I agree with you that under the present setup and the present operating methods in some of the yards but where a determined effort has been made to secure the cooperation of foremen and where recommendations such as are 10 submitted here and such as Jack Wolff has talked about are 11 made and carried out we do get the cooperation of foremen 12 very definitely and there are several such yards that are 13 only getting that 14 MR GRAHAM I think if this would be a mandatory 15 standard by which we are to operate it would get a better 16 chance of success 17 CHAIRMAN ROCHE It might almost be considered that 18 Now that has been changed from the 3,000 in the initial 19 to 1500 for the additional employees and I will change that . 20 example later on 21 Now how about 3.24 One of the troubles we frequently 22 find in yards is that the safety engineer does all of his 23 own clerical work In fact some of them stay there nights 24 to do it Is that satisfactory If so we will continue 25 MR T. J. WHELAN Travelers Insurance Company Hart- 20hs 171 ford Connecticut you put a provision In paragraph 3.1 I would suggest 1 in there that this applies to yards that hav- ing 1500 employees or more There are many yards throughout the country on small ship construction that do not quite reach that figure Why should not these provisions apply to the smaller yards under 1500 CHAIRMAN ROCHE You tell me Does anybody agree with that that yardshaving less than 1500 employees need a safety engineer or can the personnel director take care of that 10 Cries of No 11 What is the low figure 12 MR GRAHAM Five hundred . 13 MR DESJARDINES I think that is rather low 14 CHAIRMAN ROCHE I think so too 15 MR KENDALL I do not know how you can get any figure 16 | on thing like that at all Back in the days before Pearl 17 Harbor and before the war we had a number of repair yards 18 that did not have a thousand employees Some days it would in 19 operate two hundred and then a ship would come and we 20 would jump from two hundred to twelve hundred night 21 We have a safety engineer in every yard 22 CHAIRMAN ROCHE I agree with you 23 MR KENDALL I do not think you can set any figure on 24 it 25 CHAIRMAN ROCHE Well shall we say then that the safety 21hs 172 director and staff shall be appointed for all shipyards Is that agreed regardless of the number of employees MR JOHNSON Kaiser Company Portland Oregon I would like to see in that same paragraph some provision for a wage scale for inspectors or whatever you call them I mean literally that I have heard so many times from people all over the country that they cannot get or they cannot keep competent inspectors because they are not allowed to pay them an adequate wage They are paying them ahelpless wage and 10 they expect them to contact foremen and supervisors and I do 11 not think that that is right I think it should be in there 12 that an inspector gets not less than a journeyman's wage 13 CHAIRMAN ROCHE I will show you some of the scars where 14 the stitches have not been pulled out yet because I brought 15 that matter up That is a matter for the labor relations 16 division as such and not the safety division and it is 17 being taken care of 18 MR JOHNSON Well the stabilization board said why 19 not put it in there and then they will have something to | 20 back them up 21 CHAIRMAN ROCHE I am afraid that we cannot get away 22 with that but it is being taken care of and you can count 23 on that I know that where you get a good man who makes a 24 good inspector and you pay him 40 a week maybe and the 25 first thing you know he is out welding and making more money 22hs 173 and getting in overtime and lots of fellows have been lost that way and some of these fellows are making less than 40 a week So there is some need for stabilization there and treating these men and these inspectors should be treated in a different manner and I agree with you but I do not think it is part of the safety standards to set the wage scale because we would have zone agreements and everything else to take care of and you know what that is 10 MR J. M. HAYDON Moore Drydock Company Oakland 11 California On 3.1 safety director about the number of 12 employees et cetera I think there should be something in 13 there to cover what I have in mind I happen to know of one 14 yard where the safety director was the fire chief the first- 15 aid man and captain of the guards In this particular case 16 I know he was all three and I think his duty should be safety 17 director and nothing else 18 CHAIRMAN ROCHE You will find that clearly outline 19 under 3.25 20 MR SCHMOHL I think an inspector should have some 21 electrical and other experience before he is trained as an 22 inspector In most cases we have to train our inspectors 23 and I believe that you cannot get an average man in that 24 category who does not run around 1.20 an hour and I think 25 if you put in there that the requirements for the inspector 23hs 174 is to be so and so that we will be able to control the wage scale in that way without setting it CHAIRMAN ROCHE You have got a very good point there We have considered that but in the interest of keeping this thing from getting too bulky it was left out The consultant will assist in discovering these men in each case and training the men whom you are going to use as inspectors in the yard and give youa hand in that way That is going to be done somewhere along the line in the training program but 10 it is going to be done specifically for shipyards 11 MR SNIDER In regard to 3.1 you say a safety director 12 et cetera and shall be appointed for all shipyards having 13 1500 employees or more See Section 3.25 for duties and 14 responsibilities The safety director shall report to and 15 be responsible to the general manager 16 Suppose the function of the safety organization were a 17 safety director from the parent company will that change 18 the status of that any 19 CHAIRMAN ROCHE Yes you report to the general manager 20 of his yard and to him In other words anything that is 21 better than what we have here we are not kicking about but 22 it must be at least this 23 MR SNIDER Then I would like to submit that you add 24 the words and to 25 CHAIRMAN ROCHE All right we will put that in there / 24hs ven sh ~ 175 175 175 H and I will catch that in the minutes 2 Now we will continue with 3.25 duties and respon- m sibilities 4 3.25 Duties and responsibilities The duties and 5 responsibilities of the safety director shall include | 6 a Complete responsibility for formulating administer- ing and making necessary changes in the shipyard accident 8 prevention program within the limits of authority granted by 9 the shipyard management The safety director shall also be 10 required to correlate the shipyard accident prevention program 11 with the minimum standards of the U. S. Maritime Commission 12 | 13 | Any objection to that No response 14 b Submission of regular monthly weekly or daily 15 reports on the status of safety directly to the general 16 manager of the shipyard 17 May I say right there that that general manager term 18 will be put in agreement with whatever our committee decides 19 for that term 20 c Acting in an advisory capacity on all matters per- 21 taining to safety and health see paragraph 5 following to 22 the management general manager superintendents foremen 23 quartermen leadermen purchasing department engineering 24 department commissary department or contractor 25 MR JOHNSON I question the help proposition 25hs 176 CHAIRMAN ROCHE Most of the yards do not have hygienics and somebody has to take care of that MR JOHNSON They asked us what medical school we graduated from in our yard CHAIRMAN ROCHE What we want is that they will ask for your assistance For example I have run into the same condi tion in other yards and have found that the medical depart- ment never makes trips through the yard and they do not know 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 what the term is that is used in the yard and they do not know whether it is toxic or not Well the safety engineers can bring that to their attention and get some action in that way The safety engineer may not dodge the responsibility for his post in the health and hygiene program in the yard That is definitely a part of his job d Maintenance of the accident record system making all necessary reports personal investigation of all fatal or serious accidents investigation through his staff of all accidents securing supervisors accident reports checking corrective action taken by supervisors to eliminate accident causes And you can interpolate there through his staff wherever possible We know that the safety engineers have only 24 hours a day just like anybody else e Supervising or closely cooperating with the train- 26hs ing supervisor the mafety training of all employees Section 3.26 177 See f Correlating safety work with medical first aid department to insure proper selection and placement of em- ployees according to physique experience and intelligence and for the purpose of securing or giving information that will tend to control existing or potential accident causes I know one yard where the safety engineer does all of the hiring and he does first aid work too The last thing 10 he did was to take the general manager to the opera the night 11 he had to work I am telling you we are outlining your 12 duties specifically and anything extra gets extra compensa- 13 tion 14 g Making personal inspections and supervising 15 inspections by staff and by special employee committees 16 for the purpose of discovering and correcting unsafe condi- 17 tions or unsafe work practices before they cause accidents 18 h Exchanging information with other shipyards on best 19 safety methods and consulting with U. S. Maritime Commission 20 on safety problems which cannot be solved with methods or 21 information at hand 22 1 Making certain that all federal state or local safety 23 laws ordinances or orders bearing on industrial are 24 complied with 25 J Securing any necessary help or advice from state 178 27hs 1 department of labor representatives on matters pertaining 22 to safety 3 ae 4 And we better put in there and health MR E. E. WHITE Sun Shipbuilding Company Chester 5 || Pennsylvania In paragraph h consulting with the U. S. -- || Maritime Commission on safety problems which cannot be 7 || solved with methods or information at hand don't you think 8 || that a staff safety director goes beyond the bounds if he 9 consults with the Maritime Commission if the matter should 10 have been taken up with his own management instead of the 11 Maritime Commission _ 7 ee . 12 CHAIRMAN ROCHE . What I should have explained is that you 13 || will have a regional safety consultant in this area for that 14 | purpose 15 MR WHITE Not with the plant engineer or any Maritime 16 Commission 17 CHAIRMAN ROCHE No with the regional safety representa- 18 tive that means Would you rather have it put in there that 19 way 20 Cries of Yes . 21 All right it will be consulting with the U. S. Maritime 22 Commission regional safety consultant We will change it 23 24 25 that way Now on 1 does anyone object to the words safety and health because you may have occasion to contact your health 28hs 179 department MR JOHNSON It says under f you say proper selec- | tion and placement of employees according to physique experience and intelligence and for the purpose of securing or giving information that will tend to control existing or potential accident causes From a labor standpoint I would like to add there except in instances where a local union supplies the man CHAIRMAN ROCHE That is going to be taken care of we 10 hope There is a conference going on now with the A. F. of L. 11 and the C. I. O. and other unions if there be any and the 12 management representatives which tend to smooth out that 13 point and I think we will have a lot less trouble with that . 14 for which every one of us is thankful 15 Then if there is no objection we will add the word 16 health in paragraph J 17 k Initiating activities that will stimulate and safety 18 maintain the interest of employees in 19 1 Acting as secretary of all safety committees and 20 in such capacity he shall prepare an agenda for each such 21 meeting covering the business to be discussed and he shall 22 prepare for the record minutes of each such meeting 23 MR SNIDER That is impractical in many shipyards 24 according to your committee setup and according to the 25 number of hours in day 29hs side __. ae 180 1 CHAIRMAN ROCHE That is the safety director and you || interpolate there through his staff Obviously you could 3 || not be there 24 hours a day You can put in and if 4 || you want but any of these activities the safety director 5 || as such is the administrator and he makes it click I do 6 || not care if he ever goes to a safety meeting if he gets a 7 good safety record in his yard but he will go to themI 8 know or he will not get that 9 MR PACKARD I know my particular yard has used this 10 original program that came through with the inspection more 11 or less as a Bible and we are going to have to be careful | 12 there in our wording because inasmuch as most people know 13 nothing about safety and they have steered around it as 14 | much as possible now they have come face to face with it | 15 and they have to do something about it and they are very 16 apt to go by the line 17 17 CHAIRMAN ROCHE Well let us go on with our next para- 18 - graph 19 m Directing the activities of his staff including 20 the assistant safety director so that the shipyard accident , 21 prevention program will be efficiently operated It is 22 that expected that the safety director may delegate certain 23 responsibilities to his staff engineers such as that of 24 acting as secretary of certain of the safety committees 25 Permission for such delegation of authority is expressly 30hB a -- cess | 18I 18I 18I 1 given in the interest of efficiency and for training the 2 safety staff . 3 n Submission of the required reports on the status 4 of safety in the shipyard to the U. S. Maritime Commission 5 || at the time and intervals hereinafter requested 6 3.25 The duties of the assistant safety director the 7 staff engineers and clerks shall be as delegated by the safety 8 director 9 In other words he is boss of the safety department 10 Now we will come to No. 4 accident prevention forms 11 | and reports 12 MR BEHLEY You made a point about time staff 13 | directors for employees here in connection with this and 14 | so don't you think that that should be brought in there some 15 place We may get a haphazard setup some place within the 16 law 17 CHAIRMAN ROCHE Don't say law This is not a law If 18 we are going to say we should have a safety director in every 19 shipyard and not say the number of employees I do not think 20 we can say time safety director because where you 21 have only two or three hundred or five hundred men and we 22 have a lot of yards like that I do not think you can expect 23 to get a time safety director there 24 -. MR BEHLEY How about adding it where we have 3,000 and 25 1,500 31hs 182 CHAIRMAN RIHE How do some of you men from the ship- yards feel about that MR PACKAE I like it the way it is MR GRAHAN The safety director's work is a time job in any manner regardless of the size of the yard CHAIRMAN ROTEE I agree with you but they do not all devote full to it You take the several yards out here who are building small craft and have maybe 200 men they do not have a time safety engineer and I would not 10 recommend a time safety engineer for a plant that size 11 because they cannot support them 12 MR GRAHAN I do not agree with you because they can 13 support them if hey have one death in ten years 14 CHAIRMAN ROTE We have got to be practical about this 15 To begin with v= have not enough safety engineers to go 16 around right now and we have the big job of training them 17 and those of you who have been trying to hire them will know 18 that Let us keep that point in mind however for tomorrow 19 on time because I can see where the point might come 20 up next 21 The thing for consideration is No. 4 accident 22 prevention forms and reports 23 4.1 The sxiety director shall cause to be designed 24 and put into use at least the following forms and records 25 4.11 Supervisor's report of accident 4 32hs 183 a Giving all vital data on case plus statements as to unsafe act and unsafe condition reason unsafe act or condition was permitted to exist or occur and the immediate corrective action taken or recommended Sample attached Let me say this Most yards have such forms and they will not be changed if they are any good at all but this is a suggested form and aready I have had several suggested corrections for it 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR GRAHAM What supervisors do you mean CHAIRMAN ROCHE The immediate supervisors What we would call in the manufacturing industry a foreman's report of accident but we do not do that in shipyards because you know the difference in terminology You don't dare say even leadingman because that means a different thing in differen sections of the country as I found out to my sorrow Now take a good look at that form and if any of you have anything on it will you see me after a while and we will go at it again 4.12 a Safety Engineers recommendation form | Form used by safety staff to record recommendations made during inspection Used for follow Made in trip- licate one to leaderman or quarterman on job one to general manager or other designated executive one to safety department files after use to check performance Sample to be included 33hs 184 So many times these forms are issued to a man on the job and they are never collected You will notice down at the bottom of this form the specifications provide approxi- mately three by five and you can have them made up in pads A lot of yards have them and this is about the consensus of the forms that I saw and if there is anything like that they will not be changed in your yard but if you do not have them we will ask you to put them in 4.13 U. S. Maritime Commission reports 10 a To be submitted monthly to U. S. Navy - Maritime 11 Commission To include over breakdown of predominant 12 accidents types and causes accident frequency and severity 13 rates Total number fatal cases total of lost time cases 14 and the time lost total all cases including first aid and 15 number retreatments Also to be shown are cumulative 16 frequency and severity rates January 1 to date and changes 17 in frequency and severity rates from preceding month A 18 brief statement of what is being done to control each of the 19 predominant accident causes This form to be used also for 20 report to management of shipyard To be submitted in trip- 21 licate so as to reach U. S. Maritime Commission not 22 later than 15th of month following month record covers 23 Sample attached 24 We have got a new form for the U. S. Maritime Commission 25 It is a combination form to do a double job with a copy to 34hs 185 go to the labor statistics and a copy to the Maritime Commis- sion and a copy for your own use You will notice on the reverse side of the form which I will cover first because that is my part of it we have departed from the scientific approach so I have been told for the prevention of acci- | dents In other words what is is desired we want to know the cause of the accident and what is wrong We did originally want to include a definite statement for each group of such 10 items as to what you were doing to improve the conditions but 11 it would make it too bulky and we were trying to simplify 12 it 13 When we have finished with this it will be on an eight 14 by eleven sheet That will enable you to tell us after you 15 have filled out the form what are the predominant hazards so 16 that you will not use the scattershot method of engineering 17 but the direct approach method You will be able to tell what 18 is wrong and what is causing the most trouble and therefore 19 intensify your work on the greatest hazard 20 Now on the reverse side I am going to take a rest for 21 a minute and I am going to ask Max Kassoris to get up and 22 talk about that briefly 23 MR MAX KOSSORIS This form is a substitute for the 24 Maritime Commission form that you have been filling out and 25 this is pretty much of a summary type We need to know of 35hs 186 course the identification the name of the company and the location of the yard the average number of employees et cetera Now some of you are going to ask me what do you mean by average number of employees as of what time We did not put that on the form I not believe but Item No. 4 gives us the total employee hours worked and Item No. 3 gives us the average number of employees on the payroll dur- ing the 15th of the month Now there are all kinds of ways of getting the average 10 of that type but that is the simplest and the most useful 11 Have any of you any suggestions for making it any simpler 12 than that 13 Now you are going to have women so it is employees 14 instead of hours That is a question of adding up the 15 total number of hours of the work your employees work and 16 you can get that from your payroll or estimate it very 17 closely 18 You will also notice we are listing fatalities perman- 19 ent impairments temporary total and then total and under 20 the total is disabling injuries reading across column 21 the in the first two columns is the number and in 22 the last two columns are days lost Under the number you 23 split that up into those that occurred during the month and 24 those of greater severity than formerly reported Those that 25 occurred during the month and any of those that occurred and were reported during the earlier month and subsequently turned out to be more severe in terms of disability who are there is a temporary total and a permanent impair- listed ment under Items 7 and 6 respectively MR GRAHAM How can you determine that You cannot tell what the severity is until the accident is concluded so how do you know which is the greater MR KOSSORIS You recorded for any earlier month MR GRAHAM Suppose you have a man who has been severely || 10 injured through a fracture and you expect him to be injured with the same injury and you do 11 for a year and another one 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 not know which is the greatest severity MR KOSSORIS You do not estimate that If a man has a fractured arm so far as you know all you know that it is a temporary disability If he has lost his arm then you know it is a permanent impairment However if say three months later the fracture develops and he is further impaired then that that under item 6- and you just report has now turned out to be an earlier injury that indicates a more severe 20 21 22 23 24 injury All we are trying to get is a count of the fatalities that are permanent and temporary If you wish to put this on an annual basis and but on a monthly basis let you these ride have to use that is all right a shift arrange- 25 ment in order to catch up 37hs j ws 188 . I Under the Days Lost there is a column for injuries 2 || during the month and that is simply the time that you have 3 lost for injuries that occurred during that particular month 4 || and if people are injured in earlier months and are still 5 out in the month reported here you can cover that absence 6 | under column D 7 Now we have to break this up in this way because on 00 | a monthly reporting basis you cannot accurately accumulate anything because you have to give it recognition as it comes 10 | up and so by breaking it in this way you should have no 11 | difficulty whatsoever 12 | Under the disabling injuries we are just asking for 13 i the number that occurred during the month 14 The frequency rate is shown as Item No. 10 and that || 15 is explained there immediately following that heading It 16 is a very simple operation and you put it directly on the | 17 form to save the trouble of having to look for it in any 18 other place 19 We are not asking for the severities for the very simple 20 reason you cannot develop a severity rate on the monthly basis 21 not knowing what your time losses are going to be A man gets 22 | hurt in April and does not get back to work until July and 23 you cannot tell me in April what the severity rate is be- 24 | cause you would not know the total time 25 MR KAYE However the doctor's estimate will give you estimate 188 38hs 1 || a fair comparison wouldn't it That would give you something 2 to work and what you would lose on one case you would pick 3 up on another case so at the end of the year it would come Sa 4 | out approximately right 5 MR KOSSORIS There is no objection to keeping them if es she. ~ you want to and I suppose many of you do but so far as we 7 | are concerned all we are after is the frequency rate and if 8 || we know the distribution in terms of fatalities permanent 9 impairments temporary et cetera we have a pretty good 10 idea of what that story is 11 MR CONLON Do you mean the total employees now at 12 work | 13 _ 14 MR KOSSORIS You can take that information from your payroll 15 MR CONLON That is what I was going to ask you about 16 I believe that most of us keep our payroll by the week and | 17 it is very difficult to get it exactly and we have been doing 18 it for the Maritime Commission on a four or a five week period 19 MR KOSSORIS Couldn't you break your week on the number 20 of days if it is two days out of the week or sixths 21 or third 22 MR CONLON Well it is very difficult to get them to 23 | do that because it requires a lot of work in the payroll 24 department to break it down that way 25 MR KOSSORIS Well what is your suggestion What do 39h8 190 you have to offer on that MR GRAHAM Don't they all sign a dally labor report We take our records from the daily labor report MR KOSSORIS Then you have got daily reports and it is very simple to add them up MR GRAHAM Well we have to reconcile that and I think that is easily done MR KOSSORIS Do all of the rest of you have your 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 records on that basis MR I. G. JONES Southeastern Shipbuilding Corporation Savannah Georgia It is absolutely impossible for us to get it on anything other than a four or a five week basis It is like pulling teeth now to get it from the department on that basis and I would like to see it on either a four or a five week basis MR KOSSORIS What you are going to do there is that if you are going to mix the thing up and have some of them on a monthly basis and some on a four or five week basis when we start compiling them and comparing them with each other the experience will not be quite the same It may not make any difference I do not know MR JONES On this injuries on fatalities are we going to use the 6,000 MR KOSSORIS You make no charges whatsoever MR JONES Don't you think that should be X'd out then 40hs 19 19 % I am referring to c on fatalities MR KOSSORIS Well you mayhave days lost during the month because of injuries When it comes to permanent impairments we can estimate pretty closely what those losses amount to but in terms of actual time lost for work that is another story The time charges do not take that into account and this will Are there any other questions on the form MR LESSIONS Great Lakes Engineer Could we take 10 the consensus so far whether these hours should be based 11 on a weekly basis or a monthly basis rather than certain 12 days Most of us figure our man hours per week and on a 13 week basis would be much easier figuring than breaking 14 them up in the middle 15 MR KOSSORIS What is your pleasure on that 16 MR GRAHAM Isn't it a matter of record in regard to 17 the hours worked I believe that information is available 18 to every department that wants it isn't it 19 MR CONLON We have 13 week periods throughout the 20 year 21 MR JOHNSON Kaiser Company Portland Oregon I 22 think we exaggerating the importance of a few man hours 23 more or less I do not see why they cannot take four full 24 weeks and take the two extra days or whatever they are work- 25 ing What if they do miss 10,000 man hours you will catch it t 4lbs 192 192 192 all up at the end of the year anyway I do not think it makes very much difference MR KOSSORIS It makes a much neater setup for compari- son to have it on a monthly basis than to have it at differ- ent times of the month say from the 5th to the 13th or whatever the time might be Suppose we leave it on that basis and ask you to estimate for whatever period you have and ask you to give us the estimate so far as your man hours are concerned 10 MR WHITE Couldn't you extend that to the 16th of 11 the month instead of the 10th of the month ROCHE 12 CHAIRMAN It is the 15th of the month That is 13 an error.at the top of the page 14 MR SMITH I have a question on this setup Suppose 15 yards have private contractors coming on the yard doing 16 incidental jobs and there are Maritime and Navy inspectors 17 in the yard but are they to be included in this setup and 18 are they all to meet with these same requirements 19 CHAIRMAN ROCHE If it is a contract and they are 20 paid by the shipyard operators then they must be compelled 21 to meet the requirements that are met by your people in the 22 yard We had a case like that involving asbestos because 23 eventually it is going to come back on your shoulders and 24 somebody will have to pay the bill 25 MR E. S. WINFREE Pennsykania Shipyards Incorporated 193 193 193 193 42b8 oe 1 | Beaumont Texas I think Mr. Smith's question was suppose 2 | a ship came in for repaire and supposedly belonging to Texas 3 we as a shipyard repair that ship and they are not actually 4 working on Maritime contracts then how would you report that 5 CHAIRMAN ROCHE Do we want reports where work is done 6 in a Maritime yard but not on Maritime work on employees 7 involved in that work For example repairing a ship belong- 8 || ing to the Texas Company I would say no offhand 9 MR RING I would say No offhand but the percentage 10 | of that work is going to be so small and infinitesimal thatthat 11 | I do not think it will reflect any degree of change whether 12 || we have it or do not have it I think could be included | 13 | or not included as you all decide here 14 MR WALLACE I. TERRY Moore Drydock Company Oakland 15 | California It would help us a great deal I know in our 16 | particular case if we could lump the whole thing all together 17 Now take an example where a man is injured in our 18 machine shop and he may be working on Navy maybe 19 Maritime maybe repair and it is pretty difficult to ascer- 20 tain whether or not that was a Maritime job he was working 21 | on or not The man does not know half the time himself | 22 MR RING I doubt if there would be say one out of 23 | five hundred cases taking the whole thing over that 24 would be allocated to a private job and I do not see why 25 you cannot include all of it right in the single report so 43he 194 that you will have a uniform rule all the way through For example a man who is turning a lathe today for a private job may for the next 29 days be working on Maritime Commission or Navy work and similarly with every other classi- 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 fication So I think in view of the fact it is so small might as well lump it right in and include it all in there MR SMITH My question then is in this regard We have quite a number of private contractors who come into our yard who do insulating work and doing maybe construction work while we are still operating and also also the Navy and the Maritime men who are doing routine inspection work on the Job That is what I had in mind CHAIRMAN ROCHE That is the way I understood your ques- tion and he thought that I did not Where you have a contractor in the yard he may not endanger your men or he may endanger your men by his operations MR SMITH The question was this morale affect of these particular employees of ours seeing these other fellows allowed to do as they please CHAIRMAN ROCHE That is why when we discussed this matter we designate the responsibility to the engineer so that when contracts are let to outside contractors you will write into the contract the safety provisions that they are expected to follow and they will usually be the same that 44ha ae : . a 7 1 lt you have in your yard 2 MR RING That is the thought that I had on arising 3 || If you put an over blanket catch provision in your 4 | contract that a contractor's employees should be covered 5 then it is understood and agreed that the contractor's 6 || employees will be bound by and will adhere to all of the 7 |l safety rules regulations and requirements in effect in the 8 llyard Then you have the whole thing taken care of and your 9 legal department can work that out very quickly 10 MR SMITH I have taken this up on numerous occasions 11 with our top management and we cannot seem to reach an 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 agreement on that because we do have several contractors in the yard and they have been allowed to do these things and it has worked a handicap and it is one of our definite problems CHAIRMAN ROCHE If you will write me a letter I will be glad to give you that in the form of a recommendation All right among the other forms you will see several of them there and the only reason I list them at all is so they would be included here They are all very simple Now various forms will be made available to shipyards on request Please write in if you do not have them and we will be glad to help you in the preparation of your own forms or give you some information on existing forms MR KOSSORIS Did I understand you to say the super- 45hs visor's report is an optional form CHAIRMAN ROCHE No it is not an optional form That form must be used in one way or another If you have a form use it and if you have not a form use that one and by the time the regional consultant gets around he will find whether it is any good or not MR KOSSORIS Well if we are to draw off statistics from these forms and we have 35 or 40 different forms being used that will be very difficult 10 CHAIRMAN ROCHE Well most of them are like that 11 MR RING Can they all conform to that 12 CHAIRMAN ROCHE Most of them do conform to it 13 MR RING Would it be much trouble to make the other 14 forms exactly like this 15 MR FRAZIER I would like to submit our forms for your 16 consideration 17 MR RING Let us get down to brass tacks on this thing way 18 We are not going to be able to check this deal in any at vacillating 19 all if we are going to be about the forms that 20 come in Why don't you have a committee appointed or some- 21 body appointed to go out and bring in standard form that 22 you will agree to so that we won't have any question 23 about it We will say when we promulgate the standards that 24 this is the form to be used for the supervisor's report be- 25 cause if you change it around in one little way or another 46hs 1Ji l first of all it makes it difficult so far as analyses of them are concerned and secondly it leads to difficulty es so far as interpretations are concerned bape ry semprg Now we have the opportunity with everybody gathered here today to do something that I do not believe any other industry with as broad a scope as this has ever had a chance to do namely get down to bed rock and say this goes for . all of us If that is not good enough and we do not want to impose anything on you that you do not want but if that 10 is not good enough tell us what is good enough and let us 11 understand that we will use that form and that only 12 I do not see any other way that we can get going on 13 thing We are here to standardize things and you cannot 14 standardize them by letting a little slide off to the right 15 and a little slide off to the left because the first thing | 16 you know you are all out in the middle again 17 CHAIRMAN ROCHE Let us have such a committee appointed | 18 on that form then 19 MR WHELAN I take it then that this supervisors form 22 is not to go to the Commission 22 CHAIRMAN ROCHE Yes it comes to the Maritime Commission 22 definitely - 23 Now we will appoint a committee to make a study of that 24 form and report on it tomorrow morning I am going to appoint 25 on that committee Carter Kendall as chairman Dave Lester 4's a ~ 1 and I. G. Jones I am going to ask you fellows to get to- 2 || gether this evening and be prepared to report tomorrow By the way I would also like to add to that committee Max 4 | Kassoris 5 b The following formula shall be used in determining 6 | accident frequency and severity rates for shipyards 7 1 Accident frequency = Number Disabling Injuries X 1,000,000 Total Man Hours Worked for Period Covered 10 2 A disabling injury shall be considered to be 11 any injury which results in a man being unable to report for 12 | work on the next regular day or shift after the accident or 13 | one which calls for a standard time charge being made regard- 14 less of whether time is actually lost If time is lost due 15 | to the injury subsequent to the initial return to work then 16 | the injury shall be accounted as disabling 17 4.14 Minutes central safety committee 18 4.15 Minutes supervisors safety committee 19 4.16 Inspection committee forms 20 a Minutes of meetings should show date and time of 21 meeting names of those present action on unfinished business 22 brief description of new business discussed and action taken 23 | or orderebdy the committee on each item The discussion 24 should always include the predominating accident hazards of 25 the yard and the means suggested to control them 48 ae ; 198 1 b Various inspection committee forms will be made 2 ll available to shipyards on request 3 4.17 These forms and any others pertaining to industrial 4 jl safety or health shall be filed and made available to authori- 5 || zed representatives of the U. S. Maritime Commission 6 || upon request , MR SNIDER I would like to go back to that part refer- 00 | ring to a disabling injury which results in a man being unable to report for work on the next regular day or shift after the 10 | accident or one which calls for a standard time charge being 11 made regardless of whether time is actually lost What does 12 | unable to report for work mean Our insurance carriers 13 | do not permit us to bring a man back to work if he has a 14 patch over his eye 15 CHAIRMAN ROCHE The answer is if he is there ready for | 16 work that it is not a disabling injury 17 MR SNIDER Who is to decide that 18 CHAIRMAN ROCHE You in your yard If the man is there 19 it is up to your medical officer to decide that We cannot 20 make any decisions of & medical nature because we have to 21 leave that up to the doctor and that is a condition that 22 has to be corrected locally if you do not agree me 23 There is a definition on the form paragraph 1 that is 24 a standard it is generally accepted as that definition 25 It does not leave much leewaiyf a man is there ready to do 49hs 200 work he is not a lost case I suggest that we move on as it is getting rather late 5 Safety committees 5.1 The safety director in cooperation with the ship- yard general manager shall cause to be formed and put into 6 effective operation at least the following safety committees 7 7 5.11 Central safety committee 2 Membership management representative chairman 9 safety director secretary superintendents foremen medi- 10 cal department representative quarternen or leadermen and 11 one employee 12 Now on this safety committee the safety director as 13 such should be a secretary and he should not delegate that 14 responsibility 15 b Membership of all but management representative 16 medical department representative and safety director shall 17 be may be rotated -- terms of 2 months each but rotation to 18 be arranged so only 1/2 of committee changes each month 19 Now there is considerable leeway there and if you 20 want to keep him on for three months that is all right but 2 do not make it a permanent committee 20 Ce Meetings - Shall be monthly or more often as 23 necessary 24 In the case of most of these central committees they meet 25 now and again and their average is about 12 or 15 times a 50hs a ws ayn 1 ji year but not at regular intervals and it is up to the 2 | safety director to see that they have to meet at least once 3 a month or 12 times a year 4 MR CONLON This setup now countermands the old Maritime 5 || Commission instructions in regard to an executive safety 6 || committee and a general safety committee 7 MR RING Anything in conflict with this that has gone 8 on in the past will be disregarded 9 CHAIRMAN ROCHE Now if you want to have the Maritime | 10 man on there you can of course These are minimums If 11 | you want the Maritime on there put him on 12 d Duties - This is the policy forming committee for 13 || safety work They review the monthly report as submitted to the 14 | U. S. Maritime Commission and other records to determine 15 I the course of safety work for coming period They decide such 16 matters as type of safety equipment to be used and how it 17 shall be made available to men types of safety training to 18 be used whether accident prevention plan is being adhered 19 to plant contest awards etc. Some such committees 20 review the investigation on fatal or serious accidents and 21 make recommendations All committee members are expected to 22 |i make practical suggestions to improve shipyard safety They 23 || also review reports of other committees to make certain 24 suggestions and recommendations are properly followed 25 25 through 5lhs nerk Ils e Secretary - The safety director shall act as secretary prepare an agenda take minutes prepare a report of committee meeting and distribute copies of reports to members He shall follow through with other committees the suggestions and recommendations of the central safety committee MR WHITE I do not believe I understand paragraph a Does that mean one superintendent one foreman or does it mean all of the foremen 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CHAIRMAN ROCHE No just the representatives MR WHITE The representatives from each craft CHAIRMAN ROCHE No just representatives You could not possibly get them from each craft I think in one yard we would have 300 foremen in there but representatives we would say of two or three We will leave that up to the individual yard for their best decision on it MR PACKARD I wonder if we could get this over to the Navy on this safety committee or the safety engineers using a particular type of safety equipment I know the Navy generally speaking is very good that way and in certain yards certain individuals who are reserve officers and who know nothing about safety dictate the terms of what type of equipment we are to purchase and it makes it very embarrassing and difficult MarCom Cyl 8 Conroy fols HS lk CHAIRMAN ROCHE 203 That is true probably in some cases but you will find in your medical standards that the types of approved equipment are specified and there will be little or no leeway there It will contain a decision practically of what companies you will have to buy the equipment from MR PACKARD Can we get these reports that came down from the Navy to the various yards CHAIRMAN ROCHE It probably will and the Navy of course has its own plan on it 10 Would you like to comment on that question 11 COMMANDER CARLSON I understand they are preparing a 12 list now and that can be referred to as a Bible However 13 I think we can work that out all right if you will just write 14 me in regard to your individual case 15 CHAIRMAN ROCHE Thank you Commander It has been 16 suggested that we all now go down to see Dr. Drinker's demon- 17 stration on welding and ventilation and after he has fin- 18 ished we shall remain there and finish our deliberations down 19 there because we have got to be out of this room by five 20 o'clock anyway and I think we may be a little late 21 Whereupon an adjournment was taken at 3:45 22 o'clock p.m. to 5:00 o'clock p m 23 24 25 2k AFTER RECESS The meeting was resumed pursuant to recess at 5:00 o'clock p m CHAIRMAN ROCHE I suggest that those safety men in the rear move up to the front and they will be able to hear much better When we finished upstairs we were just starting Page 6 Supervisors Safety Committee That is on Page 6 and it is 5.12 10 MR DAVID KAYE Before you start with that I would 11 like to refer to 5.11 in connection with membership on the 12 Central Safety Committee I am not trying to plug any par- 13 ticular organization but why couldn't there be a represent- 14 ative of labor and a representative of management specific- 15 ally representing labor and management committees 16 CHAIRMAN ROCHE That is a very good point The question 17 was why couldn't there be a representative of management and 18 a representative of labor on the Central Safety Committee 19 and especially designated to represent the management 20 committee The answer to that is that there may be These 21 are just minimum requirements and only minimum requirements 22 You can put anybody else on that committee that you want to 23 including the chief of police of the nearest town if you 24 think it will do you any good 25 MR KAYE Then while this is a minimum requirement why couldn't you say that it is so recommended 3k 1 CHAIRMAN ROCHE Because some of the yards do not have management committees We hope that all of them will have We can include if you like where there are labor- management committees if it is agreeable that we have such representation I see some head shaking I would say this This being the minimum requirements if you want to put them on go ahead and it is a good idea in my opinion and if 8 you have not got one or don't want one why leave them off MR FRAZIER I would say that you leave it as it is 10 and put them on if you want them on 11 CHAIRMAN ROCHE All right that will be the decision 12 Is that all right with you Mr. Kaye 13 MR KAYE All right 14 CHAIRMAN ROCHE He will take it for an answer but he 15 is not satisfied 16 Now we will continue with 5.12 the Supervisors 17 Safety Committee" 18 a. Membership - Management representative safety 19 director medical department representative superintendents 20 foremen quartermen and leadermen This is a rotating com- 21 mittee rotation should be arranged so all of the supervisory 22 staff serve in their respective periods i.e. superintend- 23 ents change each four months foremen each two months quarter- ment and leadermen each month In no case should an entire 24 25 group change at one time Where a department or unit of a 20 < department has an unusually poor record then the responsible supervisory staff superintendent foremen quartermen or leadermen should be retained on the committee until their record is at least equal to the shipyard average | b Meetings Shall be monthly or monthly or more frequently as necessary 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 C. Duties - The primary purpose of this committee is the stimulation and maintenance of interest and the educa- tion of its members in accident prevention The shipyard accident record shall be reviewed the predominant types of accidents and the predominant causes of these accidents shall be discussed Suggestions and recommendations to im- prove the records are solicited from each member At least one timely subject must be discussed at each meeting 1. such as eye injuries and their prevention electric shocks hand tool accidente et cetera Methods of avoiding accidents due to these operations should be presented by the committee members 19 20 21 22 23 d The committee shall review reports of all fatal and seriour accidents and suggest preventive action It shall review reports of inspection committees and check on the quality of the suggested corrective tions or practices reported action for unsafe condi- 24 MR KENDALL Which is the senior committee 25 CHAIRMAN ROCHE The Central Committee is the senior 5k . ~ . ee committee 1 I 2 MR KENDALL And then you would have the senior com- W. mittee passing on the Central Committee CHAIRMAN ROCHE No but they shall act on recommenda- 4 tions I reversed that or I turned it around In other 5 6 words they will do as they are told by the Central Safety 7 || Committes . MR KENDALL 8 In other words they shall carry out the 9 | suggestions 10 CHAIRMAN ROCHE Yes they shall carry out the sugges- 11 || tions and recommendations 12 MR KENDALL That is better It is a little bit loose 13 there 14 MR KAYE Under Section C you say shipyard acci- 15 || dent record shall be reviewed the predominant types of 16 || accidents and the predominant causes of these accidents | 17 || shall be discussed Why wouldn't it be permissible to add 18 appropriatesteps taken to eliminate them The suggestions 19 || and recommendations sometimes are not actionabl buet if you 20 || put in specifically that an appropriate action shall be taken 21 | for their elimination you have got something pretty specific to work on 22 CHAIRMAN ROCHE We are in hopes by this time the condi- 23 24 || tions that have caused the accidents have already been taken 25 care of except as a general overall spread That is on 6k a 4 a GUC 1 |) groups of accidents Individual cases should be taken care 2 of by that time The question that in Paragraph c after 3 ||this sentence the second sentence The shipyard accident 4 || record shall be reviewed the predominant types of accidents 5 || and the predominant causes of these accidents shall be dis6 || cussed there be added and appropriate action shall be taken 7 || Do you agree that that should be in or leave it out that is 8 || leave it the way it is 9 MR KENDALL Well if the Central Committee is the 10 || forming body they should take the action rather 11 || than the advisory 12 CHAIRMAN ROCHE It is just a double check because 13 || they are giving a more thorough review than the Central Com- 14 || mittee can give because of the close contact 15 8. The committee shall act on the suggestions and | 16 recommendations of the central committee 17 Outside speakers such as safety engineers insurance men 18 || state department labormen or men from other shipyards may 19 be used from time to time to stiumlate interest of committee 20 members in accident prevention work Sound film strips 21 || motion pictures or other similar media on safety subjects can and should be used if available and practicable 22 f Secretary - Same as for central safety committee 23 24 Now we come to the inspection committees if we are 25 through there 209 7K E. Number ant One committee for each department and each hull b Inspection - Weekly or more often as necessary 0 Membership - At least two employees and a supervisory employee of each job being inspected The safety director or staff safety engineer may and should also accompany the committee d Duties - to inspect their department or hull for the purpose of discovering and having corrected unsafe acts 10 | and unsafe conditions likely to cause accidents On each 11 section of a job they should be accompanied by a responsible 12 supervisory employee They are observers only - the foreman 13 quarterman or leaderman shall do all corrective work Where 14 a condition is discovered on which there is disagreement the 15 superintendent shall make the necessary decision Hazards 16 immediately dangerous to health life or limb should be cor- 17 rected by the accompanying supervisor at once 18 By that I mean that the inspection committee is not to 19 go around and correct the men themselves There is nothing 20 that irritates & foreman or a supervisor more than to have 21 some inspector come around and give orders to his men 22 MR GRAHAM I do not agree with that clause where a 23 condition is discovered on which there is a disagreement where 24 the superintendent shall make the necessary decision 25 CHAIRMAN ROCHE Will you propose a substitution Zar 8k 1 MR GRAHAM I would say an executive committee which represents management production and Maritime Commission CHAIRMAN ROCHE They shall make the decision MR GRAHAN That is right CHAIRMAN ROCHE There is only one trouble with that and that is that there is too much time wasted in getting a decision from another committee as this may be something that needs immediate action MR GRAHAM Well you covered immediate action in the 10 next clause in that paragraph 11 CHAIRMAN ROCHE You do not believe that they can or 12 that they should go to the superintendent 13 MR GRAHAM No sir I do not 14 CHAIRMAN ROCHE You would rather wait for a meeting of 15 the committee MR GRAHAM The superintendent might feel that he is in 17 charge and he might decide to disregard the recommendation 18 entirely and then you are lost 19 CHAIRMAN ROCHE I see what you mean What do you think 20 of that point The point is objected to to this sentence 21 Where a condition is discovered on which there is a disagree- 22 ment the superintendent shall make the necessary decision 23 and it is suggested that the decision be referred to the 24 Central Safety Committee which will take some time 25 MR GRAHAM I do not agree that it will take some time because the Central Committee must be subject to the immedi- ate call and I mean by that the same day CHAIRMAN ROCHE Then in some of the yards they would be meeting three times a day MR DESJARDINES The Chairman of the Central Committee would have the last say CHAIRMAN ROCHE What is your pleasure on that Origin- ally it read the yard manager would which would have taken 9 in Mr. Desjardines point as the Chairman of the Safety 10 Committee but the yard manager again is a busy man and the 11 superintendent of a particular job can and frequently will make 12 the decision 13 Now if it is disagreed it can still be referred to a 14 central committee and should be 15 MR GRAHAM After he disagrees 16 CHAIRMAN ROCHE If he makes a decision and there is 17 still a disagreement between the committee members then of 18 course it should be referred to the central committee 19 MR GRAHAM You know there is a conflict between the 20 recommendations of the safety department and the operations 21 department If the operations department head wanted to make decision a 22 the safety department is out on a limb CHAIRMAN ROCHE I think you have got something there 23 Well what is your pleasure on that How many of you 24 believe that you should leave it as it is Quite a few 25 10k How many of you think it should be changed A few It looks like it will have to stay as it is Now again let me point out that that is a minimum re- quirement and if you want to take that to your central com- mittee in your yard that is perfectly all right to go ahead and do it I mean these are what are known as rubber stand- ards The only rubber standards we have in the country You can stretch it as long as you stretch it in the right direc 9 tion 10 e The committee shall submit written reports to the 11 safety director and indicate whether accident producing con12 ditions or practices have been corrected These reports shall 13 be referred to the supervisory safety committee by the safety 14 director If necessary because of dangerous conditions he 15 may refer them at once to the general manager 16 MR FRAZIER You skipped over the underlined portion 17 in paragraph a 18 CHAIRMAN ROCHE No I read that in a very loud voice 19 MR FRAZIER Then I would suggest that you change the 20 should to shall 21 CHAIRMAN ROCHE Thank you sir I think everybody will 22 agree to that 23 a Staging inspectors electrical inspectors crane 24 inspectors boiler inspectors et cetera 25 b Membership - Specially qualified individuals or teams 11k permanently assigned to work Ca Duties 1 Staging Inspectors - Daily or continuous inspections of all stages shall be made on each hull - or other locations where stages are used Report shall be made of all defects to the rigger foremen for immediate correction Copy of the daily report shall be submitted to the safety director Again that is flexible In some yards the staging in- spection is done by the stage rigger foremen and they are 10 authorized and qualified to make immediate repairs The only 11 thing we have been missing however are reports which will 12 indicate a trend that we did get a lot of staging effects 13 that we want to know about so that with that we can take 14 appropriate action to ---- that they do not occur again and 15 cut down on any unnecessary stage repair work 16 2. Crane Inspectors - Weekly inspections shall be 17 made of all cranes and rigging Reports shall be submitted 18 to proper department head for correction of unsafe conditions 19 or practices Copies of reports on defects shall be made to 20 the safety director 21 30 Other Inspectors - As above and at indicated fre- 22 quency 23 MR JOHNSON Portland Oregon The one objection I 24 make is to having so many of these committees and duties that 25 it seems to me that you are taking all of the authority and . . 1 12k oie. 214 1 |) duties of your safety inspectors and putting them on com 2 mittees I wish we would consider that and probably in 3 || many of these cases here a safety inspector a qualified 4 || safety inspector can act as this committee He can take 5 || up the safety steward with him if he wants to be a com6 || mittee but do not leave the safety inspector out of all 7 these primary inspection duties 00 CHAIRMAN ROCHE That is a very good point and you 9 || will notice there the membership it says specially qualified 10 || individuals or teams permanently assigned to work and that 11 || practically makes it the safety inspectors 12 Now there are very few safety men who are qualified 13 || crane inspectors In insurance companies you get special- 14 || ists for example the company that I was with We had ele- 15 | vator men and they did nothing but inspect elevators We 16 || had some boiler men and they did nothing but inspect boilers 17 | and we had unfired pressure vessels in some cases before we 18 | had a large number of them and those men inspected nothing 19 | but that 20 You have different specialists and that is exactly what 21 || you are doing in this case I think there are very few of 22 || you here who would like to go out and make a complete crane 23 || inspection isn't that right Some of us are qualified I 24 || know but very few and you do not very often run into one 25 || While you might be able to make a complete crane inspection 13k ~ an x 218 1 || you certainly would not be an inspector of boilers first 2 || because you would not be permitted to and secondly because 3 || you are not qualified to do that particular type of work 4 MR CONLON I was going to say the same thing that 5 || this gentleman back here said I was going to ask who is to 6 | appoint these men Are they to be appointed by the safety 7 || department or by the various superintendents 00 | CHAIRMAN ROCHE That is a very good point They should 0 ||be appointed on consultation with the proper department 10 ||heads by the safety engineer and will very properly become 11 a part of his department as they do in some yards 12 MR CONLON looks like they are going to overlap 13 CHAIRMAN ROCHE Well I realize that the crane in- 14 ||) spectors like to maintain control of the cranes in their yards 15 and the riggermen like to take care of their own men and 16 that is all right The main thing is to get the inspection 17 done and the conditions corrected 18 MR GREENLEE Under the membership of the central safety 19 committethee management has a representative and he is the 20 chairman I judge from some of the discussions following 21 that that probably the general manager is to be that man is 22 that right 23 CHAIRMAN ROCHE Not necessarily However he may be 24 MR GREENLEE Well if he is not just what is the sode ar of keeping him informed or of at least securing his O.K. on 14k 016 all of the recommendations that are made CHAIRMAN ROCHE Copies will be given to him as is indicated under the duties of the safety engineer for keeping the general manager informed of the progress of safety in the yard MR GREENLEE Is it just a question of keeping him in- or will he be given the privilege of saying Yes formed or No CHAIRMAN ROCHE Well not only be given but he will 10 probably take it and he usually does MR GREENLEE Well it is not here and I thought it 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ought to be here CHAIRMAN ROCHE So in other words we have purposely avoided saying that the general manager in the yard must do this and must do that because there is no use bumping your head against a stone wall We are leaving it up to him to appoint a management representative on these committees and it may be himself and we are leaving it up to the safety engineers to keep him properly informed of conditions in the yard with respect to safety health hygiene et cetera . and that is where they all come under MR GREENLEE Has anyone figured how much of a staff with all of its committees et cetera that a safety engineer is going to have CHAIRMAN ROCHE That has been covered I do not know 15k oe 217217 217217217 ago whether you were upstairs there a little while l when we 2 covered that matter and in fact we have even increased it 3 | considerably 4 MR GREENLEE It looks to me that with a force of 5 || twenty thousand men we are going to have at our yard prob- ably two or three hundred instead of the relatively few that 6 7 you had up at the other meeting CHAIRMAN ROCHE We have cut the minimum to three thous- 8 and and for an assistant safety director and for each 9 thousand thereafter there should be one additional 10 MR GREENLEE That does not cover all of these committee 11 12 menmen CHAIRMAN ROCHE Those are entirely separate 13 MR GREENLEE The safety engineer appointed in consulta- 14 tion with the heads of the department 15 CHAIRMAN ROCHE Those are separate 16 MR GRAHAM You have so many committees you have already 17 18 | pointed the safety director only has twenty hours to work in He will spend an entire day to just keep up with 19 20 || the committees I think you have too many committees CHAIRMAN ROCHE Well how do you get your crane in- 21 22 spected MR GRAHAM By the master mechanic 23 CHAIRMAN ROCHE Then he is your crane committee 24 How do you get your boilers inspected 25 16 10 MR GRAHAM We do not happen to have any boilers in- spected by anybody except the Maritime CHAIRMAN ROCHE Well what about the rigging MR GRAHAM That is checked by the carpenters CHAIRMAN ROCHE Then the carpenters do the inspection MR GRAHAM Well we inspect it and they correct it CHAIRMAN ROCHE It is perfectly all right if you want to take three or four of your men and make staging inspectors out of them 10 MR GRAHAM Well that is part of their duties 11 CHAIRMAN ROCHE Do you have them all on hulls 23 MR GRAHAM All of the hulls are covered 13 CHAIRMAN ROCHE | 14 shop You do not have any stagings in the | 15 | MR GRAHAM The men in the shop also work on the hulls 16 and they have to be able to work anywhere 17 CHAIRMAN ROCHE The point I make is this That you do 18 not need to call them safety engineers You can have men out 19 of the riggers and men out of the stage director or men 20 out of any of the shops or housekeeping committees 21 MR GRAHAM Don't you think the Central Committee and 22 the supervisors committee and the management committee 23 is sufficient 24 CHAIRMAN ROCHE No I do not and neither does this 25 committee that met in Chicago You need the additional men 17k 219 2219 19 who are making inspections of their own jobs For example one safety engineer on the hull cannot keep the hull in good condition not even on a Victory ship and you are making bigger ships than that in some of these yards I have seen , that so many times where you get a condition corrected in one spot and you walk down the line and correct some place else and by the time you return there are three or four other | places for you to correct of this is educational So he does need some help All 10 I think if you put a man on an inspection committee you 11 will make a convert of him If you do not believe that try 12 it with some of your tough nuts sometimes These are educa- 13 tional committees You get some good out of them it is true 14 but get conditions and practices discovered and corrected 15 but the biggest thing you are doing is selling them on safety 16 If they report a man for not wearing a hard hat or not 17 wearing goggles or not using the proper ventilating equipment 18 or putting up effective stagings or what have you they are 19 not going to do that themselves at least not for a week or 20 Bo and we discovered service on committees really means con- 21 verting these fellows to your way of thinking to helping you 22 with your safety program 23 On any program that I have ever conducted or operated 24 it has been my endeavor to get as many men at one time or 25 another certainly not all at once serving on a committee 220 220 A " and the toughest cases that we ever had the fellows who would not wear goggles the men who would not use guards with which to protect themselves were Christians after a little service on a safety committee Now you can lump all of these and call them house- keeping committees if you want to These are minimum requirements but you are certainly going to need inspection of cranes boilers and continuous inspection of staging There is not a yard I visited that did not have staging 10 inspectors not one and most of them were staging men or 11 staging directors Are there any more comments on that particular section 13 MR WHITE In looking over this it seems like a 14 duplication here on the central committee and the super- 15 visory committee of your leaderman quarterman foreman 16 et cetera On the central committee or the policy committee 17 should be the management the safety director the medical 18 representative and the superintendent that covers every one 19 of your divisions or crafts in your yard They are the people 20 who would naturally form the policies of the safety and when 21 you came to your supervisory committees with your safety 22 directors your foremen and your superintendents who are 23 the supervisors of that who under them come the leaderman 24 and quarterman who they direct and then comes the safety 25 general committee which is a committee from every craft in 19k 222 222 the yard who meets and they are all polled and all of their suggestions are brought to your central committee who acts upon them or the supervisory committee who acts on them and then in our case with thirty safety inspectors it does not seem like they have a thing to do CHAIRMAN ROCHE Who does not have anything to do the safety director MR WHITE No because everything is done for him CHAIRMAN ROCHE Well a good safety engineer works that this Perhaps we should specify the size 10 way Let me say That is a small committee but with 11 of the central committee of labor management operation we should 12 our present system 13 have representatioon any forming groups affecting and the activities of the men in the yard and 14 the welfare 15 that is what I say a representation from your various super- and your labor and one from 16 visory groups or supervisors I would be satisfied if you would they 17 the employees one foreman one medical 18 would have two superintendents one leaderman and 19 department representative one quarterman management representative your safet 20 one employee plus your director and your secretary which is plent for a policy- 21 V 22 forming group MR WHITE and leade The only trouble about quartermen 23 is if you take them out of the boiler shop they are no 24 men interested in anything else I think the four superintender 25 20k A should be on there 228 228 28228 - :- a | _ 2 CHAIRMAN ROCHE That is all right to put the four ' 3 superintendents on there or whatever it is 4 5 6 7 MR WHITE If you pick a quarterman out of the air who happens to be in the boiler shop and who is not interest in hull construction or anything else he is of little value to us in the general advisory end of it 8 CHAIRMAN ROCHE However you do get valuable representa- 9 tion for that committee whether he has the overall picture or 10 not At least his group the leaderman is being represented 11 on that committee You do not expect that each and every 12 individual on here is going to have the same intense interest have to . 13 in safety problems that you are going but at least 14 you are getting the viewpoints of the representative leader 15 men on this question of policy that will be raised for this 16 committee And they are the men in general who will have to 17 enforce these rules and they should have representation on 18 this committee | committee 19 Now getting down to your supervisors that 20 of course is a supervisors committee and again the size must be 21 left up to the individual plant because of the differences 22 in the names of individuals and the differences in numbers and nad ' 23 the differences in responsibility of leadermen in one yard and 24 another yard 25 MR GRAHAM Is it proposed that these special inspectors 21k 11 888 888 888 be paid as special inspectors or are they employees from the various departments CHAIRMAN ROCHE It depends on the yard In some yards | the safety department has the department and in other yards they work for the particular department in which they are in- 6 specting That is left up to the yard 7 MR GRAHAM Are their duties or responsibilities con- | fined to that of inspecting CHAIRMAN ROCHE Not necessarily as it may be a part- 10 time job A weekly inspection of a crane where there are 11 only two cranes in a yard is not going to take a week In 12 other words they are inspectors so long as they are working 13 on inspection After that they go back to staging or rig- 14 ging or whatever they are doing 15 MR GRAHAM In some yards they are on the payroll of 16 something else 17 CHAIRMAN ROCHE Yes that is true They have taken - } 18 some of the stage riggers who are qualified men to make 19 stage inspectors and that is all they do all the time 20 MR WHELAN In Paragraph 1 under duties on Page 7 21 Staging Inspectors you state here that staging inspectors 22 shall report all defects to the rigger foreman for immediate 23 correction However in some yards the rigger foreman has 24 nothing whatever to do with staging Why not make it Stag- 25 ing Foreman 22k CHAIRMAN ROCHE That is all right I would suggest you make it the Proper Foreman because there is a differ- ence there Or you can make it Responsible Foreman We will change that from Rigging Foreman to Responsible Fore- man There is a difference in authority a Committees in addition to those specified in these standards may be formed and operated if desired Somebody a few moments ago said that that is a lot of committees to have but you should see the number of com- 10 mittees that they have in some yards Every craft has a committee on each shift I have seen as many as thirty in 11 some yards It seems to me all they do is have meetings but_ 13 if they help your safety program that is fine There is no 14 question but a certain amount of it does help some commit 15 tees 16 b Representatives on all committees when of a super- 17 visory status should be appointed by the shipyard general 18 manager and held responsible by him for active and inter- 19 ested participation in the work of the committee Employee 20 representation may be secured in the same manner or by 21 appointment of employee committees union shop stewards or by election by union members members or by any other feasible means 22 C. The services of production employees having related 23 duties may be taken advantage of on inspection committees 24 Stage erectors or repair men may serve as permanent and con- 25 23k 225 225 tinuous staging inspectors a man or men from the ventila- tion crew may be utilized for checking on ventilation prac- tices The reports of state or insurance inspectors will be considered adequate on boilers air ceivers or on other pressure vessels compressors | and re- In the Century Room you will find an exhibit of materi- als on the board from the National Safety Council Those of you who are publishing house organs can get from the National Safety Council a considerable amount of material without cost 10 that can be used in your magazines They include mats cer- 11 tain posters which are available that are appropriate That 12 one you see on the wall while not suitable for your maga- 13 zine if any of you want copies of that let me have your names and addresses and I will see that you get as many as 15 you want without charge 16 47 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Also those of you who are operating in a country where there is a snow condition in the wintertime we will give you all of the posters you need on driving safely with snow on the ground Those of you operating car pools where there is snow on the ground will be given a sufficient number of booklets four leaflets for your employees rules for auto pools in the winter That is not the exact title but it is illustrated on the board plus a lot of other things If you want anything let me know There isn't any charge for any of them and if you select some on which there 24K is a charge I will let you know how much it is The time for the safety training of an employee to Fart is at the inception of his employment After a physical x- amination which should be made to make certain that the => | ployee is physically capable of performing safely the wom he is requesting the man shall have explained to him the safety policy of the company by a representative of the safety department This may be done individually in genral groups or in craft groups and the instruction may be sup- 10 plemented by printed instructions in the form of rule be 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 or instruction cards MR JACK WOLFF May I say there that I have listens in on several instruction programs that were given by a mer of the safety department and in principle they were doing the right thing but it was not being done in the right vir It was not very effective For example a great many national statistics were thrown at the new people coming in and reference was made that the hold could be filled with de capitated bodies and cut off arms and hands in the course of a year and I questioned whether it did very much good Consequently I would suggest that every safety engineer o farther than just to assume because a safety man is gitig the instructions to the new man that it is being done - a way that will be effective with that new man CHAIRMAN ROCHE That is a good point and that brings 25k 267 1 up a beautiful opportunity to tell you this I would like 2 || to tell you of Jack Wolff's work which he spoke about this 3 morning It will be his job to assist in developing such 4 preliminary inspection instructions for your men It will 5 || be his job to correlate all safety training and to elaborate 6 || on any phase of it with you fellows That does not mean that 7 || it is going to be compulsory of course His program will 8 | be so prepared so that it will fit your particular yard and 9 || it will be made at your request 10 I heard that talk on the decapitated arms and legs and 11 || it is not a very good one and certainly a welder is not very 12 || much interested in national statistics What he needs is 13 || more specific instructions 14 6.2 Employees shall have in their possession and be 15 | instructed in the proper use of all necessary personal 16 || protective equipment before being started on any job 17 6.3 General safety rule books craft safety rule books 18 ll or safety instruction cards may and should supplied em- 19 || ployees Such books should be concise but complete enough 20 || to furnish written record of all important safety rules No 21 || rule shall be included which will not be strictly enforced 22 || The assistance of U. S. Maritime Commission safety en- 23 || gineers will be given in the preparation of such rule books 24 || if desired There are several very good sets of books and instruction 25 26k 228 228 228 cards available One of the best I have seen was developed by Frank Johnson in Oregon utilizing a lot of cartons but specific craft construction Instead of a lot of hurrah in the books that lead the fellows to throw the books away he has really given them something . 6.4 All employees shall be instructed in their specific duties by their immediate supervisor and they shall be made familiar with the hazards of the job and instructed care- fully in how to avoid them It shall further be the duty 10 of the supervisor to constantly check all employees so un- 11 safe working practices may be corrected before accidents 12 occur 13 There is certainly nothing new about that That should 14 have been done for years If you talk to the average super- 15 visor he will tell you that he is doing that and again 16 that is where Jack Wolff's program comes in and the JIT 17 training program comes in That is the job instruction train- 18 ing So training methods in industry generally as well as 19 in shipyards have improved considerably over the past year 20 6.5 Safety instruction shall be correlated with all 21 apprentice and craft training schools Safety instruction 22 in such schools or training courses shall include an ex- of 23 planation and demonstration need for the safety equip- 24 ment or safe practices specified and the strict enforcement 25 of all safety requirements in the classes The instructors 27k Ss 285285 - 1 || shall by their own example impress upon the learners the 2 || importance of the safety requirements 3 6.6 Safety bulletin boards shall be located at each hull 4 | and shop and at such other locations where they may be de- 5 || sirable on which safety posters letters or bulletins from 6 || the shipyard management or safety department and other safety 7 | material may be posted | 8 6.61 The bulletin boards shall be located where the | 9 majority of the employees at a particular location will see 10 them 11 6.62 The bulletin boards shall be well constructed have 12 || a locked glass cover and shall be lighted at night 13 6.63 Safety posters and other material on bulletin 14 || boards shall be changed at least monthly or more often 15 | Posters will be made available by the U.S. Maritime 16 || Commission for the use of shipyards However posters may 17 || be selected by the shipyard safety department from any source 18 We are going to try to get you specific posters Is 19 || there any objection to that monthly change Person20 | ally I would leave mine up much less than that I would 21 || say that you should change them more often but with our 22 || present set it is practically impossible to do anything 23 | better There is a lack of applicable posters and there are 24 || not enough good ones to go around and we hope to supply 25 thosea 28k 2 ' , me 280 l MR DESJARDINES We have our own artist and we make 2 || it a practice to have our Navy yards display posters of 3 || some specific action 4 CHAIRMAN ROCHE That is exactly what we are going to do 5 || in this set 6 MR KENDALL Will you ask the group how many are using 7 || jumbo posters I am referring to the billboard size 8 CHAIRMAN ROCHE There are about a dozen using them 9 We are going to try to produce some posters worth while but 10 || we have not had any good ones lately We have inspired the 11 || men to boredom 12 6.7 Where shipyard house organs magazines or news- 13 || papers are established it is recommended that they be 14 || established in all yards having 5,000 or more employees) 15 || the safety director shall arrange to have a reasonable pro- 16 || portion of the space devoted to safety articles items 17 and cartoon cuts relating to safety will be made available 18 || by U. S. Maritime Commission safety engineers 19 Now please do not ask us for any until after the first 20 || of the year The publicity division is working on them now 21 and in the meantime we will have this stuff that I told you 22 about upstairs 23 6.8 Sound film strips and motion pictures on safety 24 || subjects should be used where practicable Public address 25 || systems where installed may be used for safety messages to 29k to shipyard employees especially during lunch hours or at shift changes Some of those public address systems are being used to very good advantage 7.1 A safety supply store shall be established in each shipyard where safety shoes safety hats protective impact goggles and tinted welding goggles shall be made available to shipyard workers Shoes may be sold at or near cost to employees but safety hats and impact and tinted goggles shall 10 be issued to each employee but shall remain the property of 11 the company to be returned when the employee ends his em- 12 ployment Equipment such as work clothes gloves welders 13 helmets may also stocked and sold to employees if de- 14 sired 15 7.11 Goggles may be stocked in the central tool room or 16 first aid department but should be fitted as described in 17 paragraph 7.2 following shall 18 MR KENDALL You say there again You say 19 A safety supply store shall be established Now it is my 20 impression there have been some rather flat statements made 21 by the Maritime Commission that you shall not have the stores | within the confines of a Maritime Commission yard 22 CHAIRMAN ROCHE And I have been definitely instructed 23 to include this by the Commission 24 MR KENDALL You are all going to get it 25 30k 12 232 232 232 CHAIRMAN CHAIRMAN ROCHE We hope so It is a tough thing to have your men buying shoes from Ginsburg and Klein and Mulcahey and then come in with every possible kind of equipment at a variety of prices MR KENDALL Along the same lines we have found that unless you can sell safety shoes on a payroll deduction basis you do not sell the shoes At least you do not sell very many of them What can be done along that line CHAIRMAN ROCHE That is a law that would require an 10 Act of Congress to change I sympathize with you but I do 11 not know what you can do about that 12 MR FRAZIER I beg to differ with you In our ship- 13 yards we sell all can get and the men come in and pay 14 cash for them and there is no payroll deduction The cash 15 is put on the barrel head and they get the shoes and I have 16 sold as many as a thousand dollars worth a day 17 CHAIRMAN ROCHE That is right and that seems to be the 18 general experience 19 MR CLARK I would like to propose a problem here You 20 say safety caps and impact and tinted goggles shall be issued 21 to each employee but shall remain the property of the com- 22 pany to be returned when the employee ends his employment Well we have eight thousand men in the yard at the present 23 time and we have yet to issue a safety hat or goggles that 24 25 remained the property of the company We have sold them to 31k 1 1 4 a 200 H || the men the same as we did the shoes Now if we start now 2 issuing these hats then we have got to consider the morale 3 || problem that will confront us of major proportion There- 4 fore I doubt very much if it is feasible for us to adopt 5 any such plan I think it was you who suggested this morn- 6 ing the main difficulty with this It is true that you issue 7 the hats on a tool check and when the man quits he has lost 8 || the tool check and lost the hat and he pays you for the hat 9 and goes on 10 So why not sell it to him in the first place I say 11 || that especially in view of the fact that you might have a 12 || very difficult problem on your hands of morale in New York 13 Now that to my mind is a question that somebody is 14 || going to have to answer for me because I cannot answer it 15 | myself 16 CHAIRMAN ROCHE All right let us have some other 17 18 19 discussion on that MR CONLON Let him but it or not as he pleases off the record 20 MR DESJARDINES In regard to paragraph 7.1 I do not 21 like the reference in there to the word tinted goggles 22 CHAIRMAN ROCHE I have been looking for a good name 23 || for that and that is the simplest one that I have been able 24 || to find Under goggles we cover Bureau of Standards that 25 are approved 32k MR DESJARDINES You could call it absorptive lenses CHAIRMAN ROCHE The suggestion has been made also that we call it filtered lenses MR WHITE You do not mean the combination of the two impacted and tinted CHAIRMAN ROCHE Definitely Impact and tinted They practically all have them MR WHITE I am reminded that at night the glasses do not have to be tinted for a chipper does it He 10 CHAIRMAN ROCHE should have them tinted if he is 11 working in close proximity to any welding operation I think 12 we can solve this problem by taking out the word shall and 13 14 15 . 16 17 18 putting in the word should in this paragraph but that is not solving the problem In my opinion we should say shall MR KENDALL I would suggest that you leave the word shall in there I can see your point but we are interested in getting this equipment to the men and we are not getting our welders to wear absorptive or filtered lenses under their 19 welding hood because they do not want to buy them,. 20 MR PACKARD What we are doing now is asking for a de- 21 posit for the hats which is returnable any time they wish terminate to 22 their employment and if they have a secondhand them hat given to 23 we just charge them one dollarsor one dollar and fifty cents whatever it is worth as a deposit 24 but they get their money back 25 33k 285 285 22885 5 CHAIRMAN ROCHE There is your answer I would suggest that you take a deposit from them equal to the amount of the hat 7.2 The attendant of the safety store should be skilled in fitting safety shoes and if goggles are also issued he should be trained in proper fitting and servicing of goggles 8.1 Impact resisting goggles of a type suitable for the particular job and also of a type meeting the require- ments of the U.S. Bureau of Standards shall be worn by every 10 employee exposed to the hazard of eye injuries Practically 11 every employes in the shipyard with the exception of those 12 working inside offices are either directly exposed to eye 13 injury from the work they do or indirectly through working 14 near operations likely to cause flying objects 15 8.2 Except where temporary lack of goggles make it 16 impossible each employee shall have his own pair of goggles to 17 If it is necessary reissue goggles to different employees 18 the goggles must be sterilized after each use 19 8.3 Goggles supplied employees should be carefully 20 fitted to their face to prevent irritation and to prevent 21 the entrance of foreign objects around the ages See 22 paragraph 7.2 23 8.4 All employees working in proximity to arc welding be 24 operations shall required to wear anti flash goggles of 25 at least No. 4-5 shade or equivalent of a type meeting the 34k 888 888 888 888 1 requirements of the U.S. Bureau of Standards See Section 9.1 on Welding for Additional Eye Protection for Welders MR KAYE There might be some question shade 4 or 5 CHAIRMAN ROCHE Or its equivalent You can use letters or numbers . MR DESJARDINES No. 3 is very satisfactory and I be lieve that No. 4or 5 is rather dense CHAIRMAN ROCHE I use No. 3 myself but this 4 or 5 is recommended by the AFA Standards MR DESJARDINES Should you not mention A B or ? CHAIRMAN ROCHE Or the equivalent 12 MR JOHNSON I think that 4 or 5 shade should be 13 taken out because I believe they should go to the A B C 14 or medium or dark 15 CHAIRMAN ROCHE If you trust me I will put in the 16 proper designation to fit that and get in touch with Mr. 17 Johnson 18 MR WHITE Did you ever wear a tinted glass in a tank 19 chipping at night 20 CHAIRMAN ROCHE No I have been in many a tank but not 21 at night. MR WHITE You could not do it 22 CHAIRMAN ROCHE Why not 23 MR WHITE You cannot see That means that a man has 24 to have two pairs of goggles 25 35k ian si 287 CHAIRMAN ROCHE However you have got to protect your 1 ~ 2 || chippers against eye flash whether you remove the welding 3 || operations from inside the tank while they are chipping or 4 ||whether you supply them with tinted goggles that protect them 5 YouYou have a choice of the lesser of two evils which is it 6 | going to be You admit there is a problem there 7 MR WHITE Yes I do That means that thousands of men 00 will have two pairs of goggles in their pockets I might not 9 be a very good safety engineer but I would never put a man 10 in a tank under any artificial light with a tinted goggle 11 ||because he cannot see 12 MR DESJARDINES I have not had any experience on that MR FRAZIER We have had trouble at times on that where 13 14 menmen complain that they cannot see and we issue them clear 15 || lenses and they work satisfactorily In fact the clear 16 lens is approximately as protective from eye flash as is your 17 || tinted goggles We have records to prove that on certain 18 | things There is a misconception I believe so far as your 19 tinted goggles are concerned We work on the theory that if 20 || you have a shade it will protect you and with your experi- 21 ence in welding I believe you will find the curved lens 22 even in the clear will also cut down your rays and you can 23 ||become immune at times over a certain period of time to eye 24 flash flash rays That is the reason these men visit the first aid stations 25 36k 13 1 || They get the misconception that if you do not have a green 3 | to that is whether it be tinted or otherwise that you do 4 receive great benefits from | you plain lenses but it must | 5 be of a curved nature A flat lens will not protect you 6 CHAIRMAN ROCHE The data we have accumulated does not 7 | indicate that 8 MR BOWMAN It might be that the men who are given these 9 | goggles are more apt to wear the clear lenses because they | 10 are not as heavy as the tinted ones 11 CHAIRMAN ROCHE What do you recommend 12 MR BOWMAN No. 2. I do not have any reason for it 13 | That type of glass is very light 14 MR W. W. WALL You have only two rays of light that || 15 you have to contend with which is infra red and ultra violet || 16 You can cut out with clear glass all of your ultra violet but | 17 not infra red which runs 45 per cent of your burns So you | 18 would say about 55 per cent of your chance is cut down with 19 || a clear goggle 20 CHAIRMAN ROCHE It is true there is some protection 21 || given by clear glass but it is true that we have had eye 22 || flash with clear glass goggles being worn You do not cut 23 | out sufficient for long exposure to give adequate protection should 24 and I believe we go on record as recommending either 25 || goggles or removing the welding operation where when somebody 37K 239 1 who is exposed who does not have adequate protection If you do not agree with the provision here we will have to have some solution and some practical usable solution that will give protection to the employees and certainly assist in every way so as to not stop production MR FRAZIER Do you mean by that not designating either tinted or clear but that either will be satisfactory CHAIRMAN ROCHE No sir We are designating tinted 9 MR WHITE You cannot wear tinted glasses at night CHAIRMAN ROCHE We have only had two people who have 10 11 raised objections to it 12 MR JOHNSON I believe that a lot of the eye flash 13 can be overcome by using clear goggles at night and side 14 shields and enforcing the rule on welding shields You do 15 not need to have it any bigger than two pieces of paper to 16 do it 17 CHAIRMAN ROCHE Possibly we should put in another para- ner 18 graph here on shields on the use of welding shields 19 MR GRAHAM Would anybody like to make a suggestion as OR . 20 to the type of welding screen that should be used whether 21 it shoulbde three sided with a hood or not CHAIRMAN ROCHE We have some in there 22 9.1 All welders shall be made familiar with the hazards 23 of their work and they should be instructed in safe methods 24 25 of performitnhge various types of jobs to which they are 58k assigned 9.2 Personal protective equipment used by welders shall include 9.21 Welders protective hood provided with the proper shade of tinted glass for protection against the harmful rays of the arc and a clear cover glass to protect the shaded glass a The shades or their equivalent recommended are Up to 30 Amperes - No. 6-7 Shade 10 30 to 75 Amperes - No. 8 Shade 11 75 to 200 Amperes - No. 10 Shade 12 200 to 400 Amperes ~ No. 12 Shade 13 Over 400 Amperes ~ No. 14 Shade 14 b Shades may also be selected from the following 15 table 16 Rod Diameter Welding Glass Shade No. 17 1/16 10 18 3/32 10 19 1/8 10 20 5/32 10 21 16 12 22 7/32 22 23 1/4 12 24 5/16 14 25 3/8 14 39k C. The welders hoods should be inspected at least weekly to detect possible light leaks cracked protective glass or badly fouled or missing cover glasses Any defects discovered shall be corrected at once 9.22 Protective leather welders jacket long sleeved wool shirt with buttoned collar and leather welders gloves and safety hat a It has been found satisfactory in the hot summer months to substitute flame proofed cotton shirts If this 10 is done the flame proofing which must be reapplied after 11 each washing should be done under the direction of the ship- 12 yard This entails that laundering also be done by the com- 13 pany commercial laundries are rapidly undertaking this type 14 of work 15 That is substituting for the wool shirt Now I know 16 that you use those down in the South and some on the West 17 Coast in the hot country Does everyone agree that that 18 should be left in there if they are flame proof 19 9.23 Hardened and tinted protective goggles with side- 20 shields to be worn under the hood for protection against 21 harmful rays where the hood is raised and for protection 22 against flying scale and chips The goggles should be of 23 a type meeting the requirements of the U. S. Bureau of 24 Standards and of at least No. 4-5 shade or equivalent 25 MR WHITE All of this seems to fall upon what they 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 must do Are you going to follow up by recommendations for punishing anyone for the violation of these rules CHAIRMAN ROCHE We are not We are not going to follow up with the punishment of anyone for violation of these rules The safety engineer's job is to lay down the company's policy to a man as soon as he starts From then on he continues to train that man in safety and it is the man that he is willing to obey the his job to so safety rules train If you want to punish them that is your job and not the Maritime Commission's job MR WHITE You would not make a recommendation that some disciplinary action be taken if some man violated this thing continually CHAIRMAN ROCHE No I would by the Maritime Commission | much That not with anything published published would be asking for too 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 are MR SINNOTT Is it your idea that these various yards to pay for this laundering if the shirts are flame proofed ? CHAIRMAN ROCHE No. MR SINNOTT They can be flame proofing being taken out laundered now of the shirt without the CHAIRMAN ROCHE about that That is the first time I have heard 24 MR SINNOTT The dupont people prepared some prepara- 25 tion and I understand they can be laundered in a special 41k ?? 243 243 243 preparation CHAIRMAN ROCHE I will tell you when you get a large number of them it means that you have got to get some laundry to put this business in for you MR SINNOTT that does that I know around New York they have a laundry CHAIRMAN ROCHE That is right but none of the dupont products now so far as I know laundered in the regular way will be any good after laundering They have to be reflame 10 proofed and that business of special preparation it looks | 11 to me like adding more cost to it 12 You say who should pay for it Frankly I do not know 13 I think that depends upon the local conditions Most of the 14 magnesium plants which employ many thousands more people than 15 we do pay for the laundering and the flame proofing of 16 the shirts 17 It just strikes me that this paragraph means that the 18 company is to pay for the laundering 19 CHAIRMAN ROCHE It does not say that but it is left 20 up to them As a matter of fact we come to that under 21 women a little later on and that is left up to the yard 22 to decide one way or the other 23 9.24 Safety shoes with leather soles and heels 24 MR FRAZIER Does this cover the welder's boots that 25 you are speaking of here 42k CHAIRMAN ROCHE Yes MR FRAZIER You know they were stopped in production _ on those about three months ago and in order to get the assistance of a body I think we should write to the War Production Board on that order 217 to get some action on that because we are unable to get women's shoes CHAIRMAN ROCHE We will go to town on that MR FRZIER That is on the order 217 CHAIRMAN ROCHE What do you think about corded heels 10 MR FRZIER I think they are all right 11 CHAIRMAN ROCHE All right I will get a definition of 12 that and we will put it in there 13 MR FRAZIER That is corded soles and heels 14 MR WHITE Do all welders have to wear safety shoes ' 15 CHAIRMAN ROCHE Yes 16 MR FRAZIER Down South they have devised a boot which 17 is being used 18 CHAIRMAN ROCHE If it has a safety sole in there it 19 is all right 20 MR FRAZIER That takes the place of having to wear 21 anything above your ankles 22 CHAIRMAN ROCHE That is all right 23 9.3 Welding screens constructed of flame proofed 24 fabric on wood or metal frames metal on metal frames or 25 plywood sheets joined by rings of a size sufficient to pro- 43k am | 1 || tect men working nearby from the harmful effects of the 2 || electric are rays should be used on all electric welding 3 || operations 4 Of course you are going to have difficulty in some 5 spots but where you can use them use them and that ply- 6 || wood sheet business I saw on the West Coast is possibly the 7 || cheapest and the best screen of any It is two plywood 8 || sheets about 14 x 16 joined together with a couple of rings 9 an inch and half inch in diameter and the holes are 10 drilled in the wood so that when you put them together here 11 they are supporting with no joints from which light 12 can leak through They overlap and it makes a good solid 13 shield that can be used and it is very light and I found 14 || other shields that have weighed as high as two hundred pounds 15 || the men would not use them because they would not carry 16 them around but they do carry the plywood shields around 17 and it is a swell job 18 MR GRAHAM Do not they object to the extra piece of . 19 equipment that they will have to move 20 CHAIRMAN ROCHE That does not weigh any more than 21 | this indicating 22 MR GRAHAM The way we have over come that is by sug- 23 gesting that they bracket the screen to hold the welding rod 24 || box and we put a hood on the top We have four pieces of 25 || screen and I think you will find that that will work out 44k 24 better than carrying an additional piece of equipment CHAIRMAN ROCHE I would like to see them made as cheapl as possible without using metal and there is a definite need for thousands of these screens MR GRAHAM For a screen that small there is plenty of scrap sheet metal around in the yard of say gauge that will provide the welder with sufficient material if he is not careless CHAIRMAN ROCHE Whose yards were those screens in the 10 West developed for 11 MR HOGAN In the Oregon yard 12 CHAIRMAN ROCHE They are very fine 13 By the way I believe we should change should to 14 shall and after that we will add the words where prac- 15 ticable Perhaps that is why I put the word should in | 16 there 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 We of this I know a have to get out of this room very shortly and lot stuff that you find from and you will want to add here on you will want to to it because it covers do specific craft practices for the most part So will you take these with you tonight and write in in pencil or ink the corrections that you would like to have included and sign your name your company connection and your address on them and give them to me tomorrow morning and I will in turn put those corrections or additions in there where it can be 45k Man fols with Dec. 8 10 11 12 done Is that satisfactory to you 257 Then we will have that discussed with these four men who are coming in and we will get a consensus on this and put this thing into effect Now I want to thank you for your close and careful attention and for the interest that you have taken in this job The meeting adjourned until 10:00 o'clock a m Tuesday December 8 1942. 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 248 248 248 ee ce UNITED STATES MARITIME COMMISSION f and UNITED STATES NAVY - coe : portge MEETING IN REGARD TO MINIMUM REQUIREMENTS ce co FOR INDUSTRIAL HEALTH AND SAFETY IN SHIP- ee ......... ce YARDS 20 oe Pi 0 Held in the Century Room Hotel LaSalle Chicago 10 Illinois on Tuesday December 8 1942 at ten o'clock a.m. 11 Mr. Daniel S. Ring Chief Shipyard Labor Relations United 12 States Maritime Commission presiding 13 --0 - 14 CHAIRMAN RING I have a number of announcements to 15 make First of all anybody who has not registered should 16 register immediately There are cards available and they 17 can be obtained at the little desk outside the door We 18 want a complete record of everybody who has been here 19 Secondly there is quite a report by the Bureau of 20 Labor Statistics on injuries in shipyards during the year 1941 that is in the course of preparation That is a review 21 in general of conditions in 92 shipyards with respect to the 22 injuries sustained there and a breakdown as to the nature of 23 those injuries The Bureau of Labor Statistics is present- 24 ing that in written form in the near future in printed 25 Ze 223 form and there are 11 yards with approximately 3,500 in- juries that are completely broken down on a practical statistical basis By practical I mean that there is an analysis of the cause and the means of prevention of each and every one of those injuries Now if you want them you can get those reprints of that article by communicating with Mr. Roche and he will have the Bureau of Labor Statistics send them to you I would think that everybody here would want copies of that Now if there is anybody here that does not 10 want a copy say me 11 Hearing no me's we will just give this list of at- 12 tendance here to Mr. Roche who will transmit it to the Statistics 13 Bureau of Labor and ask them to send about five | 14 copies each one of you That will amount to about 500 | 15 copi-- B 16 We have with us today and I would like to have him 17 come up and just say hello to you Dr. Peterson of the 18 American Medical Association We want to have Dr. Peterson 19 come up and say hello 20 DR PETERSON American Medical Association Hello 21 Applause) is It a real pleasure to be here and meet with you 22 today The notice of the meeting came to my attention a 23 little late otherwise I could have participated in what 24 25 you talked about yesterday 280 280 30 I see one or two references in your standards to the 2 work which the Council on Industrial Health has been doing I am sure that that body will be greatly interested in learn- ing the results that you achieve through this conference and through the work which Dr. Drinker and Mr. Roche have been carrying on I believe that you are thoroughly alive to the vital problems which are confronting you and the profession at 0 large during these trying days and what steps we are taking 10 to arrive at some satisfactory solution I think if we all 11 attempt to figure these things out together we will make | 12 considerable progress 13 Thank you very much Applause 14 CHAIRMAN RING I want to say that I have a telegram 15 from John Green president of the Industrial Union of the 16 Marine and Ship Building Workers of America affiliated with 17 the C. I. O. which as usual I have left upstairs in my 18 overcoat John said that he wanted to extend his regrets 19 for being unable to attend here He was meeting in Washing- 20 ton under circunstances that prevented him from leaving 21 and he wanted to extend to this conference his sincere wishes 22 for a successful prosecution of the objectives thereof 23 I want to have that in the record because I know if he 24 could have been here he would have been here 25 Realizing that the safety men are prone to be a little 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 251 less technical than the medical people I suppose that we 252 can just call on the safety men for a report now and then they will have their minimum standards bundled up and tied e of that up and ready to go I will call on Mr. Roche to report for the safety men super- Mr. Roche here assumed the Chair CHAIRMAN ROCHE As you know we did not finish our job yesterday We had to postpone it I asked each of you ; form bing just to write your suggestions and recommendations of the part not finished in the craft safety operation section of the standards I hope you have all done that I have a report from the committee of which Mr. Clark was chairman I would like to present that at this time Your committee appointed to make a change in the language in paragraph 3 wishes to report as follows That the last sentence of the above paragraph be changed to read as follows form i i instruc- ary form n of Labor ashington hannel add a few disabling rify that The safety director shall report to and be responsible to the highest ranking managerial executive or his designated supervisory representative Three of the four committee members were present at the ront of you deliberations Mr. Snider being absent Will someone please move that report be accepted e be ac- The motion was made seconded put to a vote and 273 CHAIRMAN ROCHE May I have a copy of that before you ,, , go today MR KENDALL ---- -- CHAIRMAN ROCHE We still have the procedure of appoint- ing the committee for the group as a whole We have about three hours work to complete that If we get a committee we can begin the safety part of that job I would say there | is about an hour and a half's work perhaps left So I am going to leave that authority with Dan Ring 10 for this action He would like to finish this job before 11 we leave today but I would like to have immediately or as 12 soon as the committee is appointed all the suggestions and 13 criticisms you have written in longhand I have several 14 already 15 MR KENDALL Mr. Chairman in reviewing that form we 16 also took a crack at the monthly injury summary But we 17 suggest you include in the top top of that form the address 18 with a notation as to the number of copai nd e whes re they 19 should go We are not really certain as to how many copies 20 you want of that Do you want four 21 CHAIRMAN ROCHE Three MR KENDALL Is that the total 22 CHAIRMAN ROCHE That is the total for us The yards 23 24 of course will want to keep one MR KENDALL That should appear on the form in our 25 7e 08 opinion We also had in mind possibly the addition of an item under item 10 Frequency Rate to include the accumulated year to date frequency That would overcome the objections | that were raised yesterday on the four paid periods against five paid periods automatically carrying that out and taking it along and also giving you a much better picture of your frequency because one swallow does not make a summer and one month might be terrible and the next might be fine and 10 your year to date will give you a better picture 11 Chairman Ring here resumed the chair 12 CHAIRMAN RING I think that is fine Suppose we have 13 a motion for the adoption of the recommendations of the com- 14 mittee in that respect that is if somebody agrees with him 15 of course Move it yourself Mr. Kendall 16 MR KENDALL I so move 17 The motion was seconded put to a vote and carried 18 CHAIRMAN RING Now with respect to the situation that 19 the committee on safety finds itself in we do not want to 20 go away from here without things wrapped up and done in a 21 proper manner I think after the time that has been spent in coming here and the sacrifice that everyone has made to 22 present be 23 at this meeting it would be little short of a crime if we left say an hour and a half's work between the 24 complete job as far as the safety standards are concerned 25 8e insert 255 and the condition that it is now in I think therefore that unless there is objection I will appoint a committee to get to work on this as soon as we have finished with the lecture that we will have this morning and I will them to report to this meeting at 2:00 o'clock for final action Do I hear any objection to that There is no objection The committee I think should be composed in view of the excellent results from the safety committee thus far of 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 Mr. Kendall Mr. Kaye Mr. Frazier and Mr. Frank Johnson Now we ought to have somebody from labor on this committee I think we will designate Mr. Fail and Mr. Graham with Mr. : Roche serving ex officio We have the privilege of having with us Dr. Hedwig Kuhn who knows a great deal about eyes and knows a great deal about their effect in industry He has kindly con- sented to show some slides here and rather than move into the medical part this moment I think we will change the line of procedure to permit Dr. Kuhn now to present and illustrate a slide lecture that I know everyone will be interested in and then we will have the medical department report immediately after that at which time Mr. Kendall Mr. Roche and the committee on safety can really start go- 24 ing I will now turn the meeting over to Dr. Kuhn 25 Insert Helen Dr.Kuhn lk 25 DR HEDWIG S. KUHN National Society for the Prevention of Blindness Hammond Indiana The thing that shipyard safety men medical men and production men are interested in as in all industries is Eyes for the Job which means Safety and Production simple categories That falls into a few very The first problem of course is one you all know about and have already talked about here and that is goggle pro- tection Perhaps the road of eye protection is one that 10 has been laid by Harry Gilbert who has done more to be the 11 pioneer in goggle protection than perhaps any one person in the country This is protection to the eyes If you will 13 however please keep the two things separated - protection 14 to eyes and protection from defective eyes 15 An all program is practically the only goggle solu 16 tion in most industries so that it includes management 17 when it goes into a plant and visitors when they go into a 18 plant - then the men will also be sold on it 19 The various types of goggles you have seen You who 20 are in this room know that cover are obsolete and 21 that to put a pair of goggles over a pair of glasses is out 22 People who are unfortunate enough to have astigmatism know 23 by experience that if their glasses are tilted even a little 24 bit they get a blur To put a goggle cover on top of 25 glasses and tilt the lens makes a hazard instead of creating ; 257 2k safety We have goggles for many purposes splash light and gases and then we have the newest development the prescrip- tion goggle which has eliminated the cover goggle Because of the prescription goggle and because of the elimination of the cover fitting and adjusting is essential Most of your toxic fumes trouble of course are really simply ventilation problems and not protection problems to the eye itself 10 Then in discussing accidents because of eye defects one has the other side of the picture from accidents to the 11 12 eyes Your men have broken arms and broken shoulders and 13 accidents because of eyes and I think that is the thing that 14 most generally safety men completely overlook |15 As one example you have all seen this ad in the papers of the Better Vision Institute - He says my eyes are O.K. 16 17 Oh yeah That is what I thought This could have been 18 taken out of a case in our office where the fellow came in 19 with a foreign body in his eye After checking him through 20 we found he had no depth perception He was amenable to 21 questioning and I asked Have you had many accidents said and he said I have had a lot of foreign bodies I 22 I don't mean that Did you ever get your fingers in a 23 machine He pulled his left hand out of his pocket and he 24 is had three fingers off That what I mean when I say 25 ok 10 11 l2 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 3 24 25 vision We We need to know sharpness 1, Acuity or Sharpness glasses 23 near with and reasons That compensation compensation essential essential for records 25 for our records, . essential essential It reasons and it reasons, " it igs 259 4k 1 2. You need to know about depth perception Mind you now that does not mean you are going to do anything about it often you cannot but you do need to know 3. Muscle imbalances for near and close You can put a crane operator on a crane who has absolutely perfect vision in each eye 20/15 and if he has a muscle imbalance he may start the day beautifully but after three or four hours he fatigues and he ends up working on a dangerous job visually unstable To me a definition of the accident prone man is 10 a clumsy person or an awkward person and therefore he is an 11 unsafe person Isn't that what any safety man feels There- 12 fore are visually clumsy then you are unsafe and a 13 person with a muscle imbalance is visually clumsy 14 4. You need to know what sort of color appreciation a 15 man has 16 And finally for certain precision jobs you need some 17 near vision tests 18 The Snellen chart at twenty feet for industrial records 19 is impossible That does not in the first place give you 20 an accurate record because 90 per cent of the time it cannot 21 be accurate The light is wrong the nurse is looking the 22 other way when she covers one eye or as in our district 23 South Chicago among the people that come to work over in 24 Indiana classes are held The men get all the Snellen charts 25 and learn them backwards and forwards so they can come in 200 5k the employment office and give you anything you want Often the chart hangs over their heads as they wait - & I W in one large ordnance plant Here the chart is in the waiting room and the nurses take the vision tests while the next fellow sits there and memorizes it So that kind of a visual record does not mean anything Then wy take it When you are through with you you haven't got anything Therefore all your visual findings can best be done binocularily in a compact battery of tests ren by a layman under medical direction handled in a way that lay people also can use the 10 information and not in any academic laboratory manner It 11 is awfully important to remain practical and not to be 12 academic and to lay down really minimum rules in time of war 13 but stick to the minimum 14 These are the elements of visual performance as we 15 call them or if you want to speak in an engineer's terms I 16 have reduced it to a simple term of visual skills which 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 is actually what it is The slides that I am now going to show you are based on a year's lost time accidents in a plant They will show you the relationship and correlation between vision these visual elements I told you about - acuity muscle imbalance depth perception and color the out plant average of a plant that has about twenty thousand people and the same attri- butes among the men with accidents 261 6k To get these accident figures it was an almost impos- sible job because the accident records were so inadequate that we could correlate them only with difficulty Now that safety men are beginning to keep real accident reports which include illumination and a check mark of attentiveness or of a man being on an off shift or what the foreman's idea about the man is > you can go to the statistical labor- atories as we did at Purdue and ask them to correlate what relationship if any visual factors have 10 This need for real correlation was shown in California 11 where they never could get any correlation between traffic 12 accidents and eye defects until they suddenly thought We 13 only know that a man has got poor vision we have no r^'cord 14 of which eye or what kind of accident If a car hits you 15 from the right side and you are blind in that eye that is 16 one thing If a car hits you from the right side and your 17 left eye is blind that is another thing and correlated 18 with full information you do get definite relationships 19 In this slide the top row of columns represents a cross 20 section of the plant and the first column is acuity with 21 20 per cent defects the second column is uncorrected acuity 22 that is everybody had their glasses on in the plant 23 showing 8 per cent The third column is depth perception 24 with 14 per cent defective and the fourth one is color 25 2 per cent the fifth one being muscle balance or 16 per cent .7k .7k a | = C 262 1 In the lower row of columns are the percentages of these 2 same five categories among the men who have lost time acci- 3 dents In each instance the per cent is higher especially 4 in the men who remain uncorrected in spite of glasses From this slide you get the idea that there is something besides 6 acuity and that all of these visual factors play a part in 7 | accidents 8 This leads us right into the second basic question ~ 9 | what do we need to know about an employee's eyes to insure 10 maximum production and minimum waste which I presume you are 11 also interested in 12 We need to know the same facts and this next slide 13 | simply is a rough dramatization of what we mean by visual 14 skill This is a young lady looper and a crane operator 15 The crane operator must often operate at a span of 150 feet 16 but your looper works at eight inches eight hours a day 17 straight ahead not down Now the two people cannot fill 18 both of those jobs with the same visual equipment 19 The next slide shows you the percentages on sixteen 20 ||thousand employees that were checked in the Calumet district 21 and the per cent of defects of these five things talked about 22 | 1. acuity defects 21 per cent uncorrected acuity 12 23 per cent depth defects 16 per cent color defects 5 per 24 cent and muscle imbalance 22 per cent and this is the 25 same in any industry It would probably be the same in the 8k ot ce 263 1 1 shipyards as anywhere else 2 The next slide shows you that people that apply for a 3 job have almost the same average almost the same percentage of defects and that a person does not get a visual defect 4 5 by going into industry He may have an accident but you 6 don't get a muscle imbalance 7 From this type of information you can set up a job classification which should be kept very simple - Class A 8 the fellow that has to be absolutely perfect Class B the 9 fellow that does not have to be perfect intermediate and 10 11 Class C the people that have to be perfect especially for 12 13 14 close production work Why all this Primarily to eliminate the visual bottle- necks to efficiency and the visual aptitudes the thing that 15 Mr. Wolff is doing with training in your overall analyses 16 You cannot train visual defects such as acuity but you can 17 train muscle balances and you can sometimes train depth 18 perception That makes for accuracy and makes for safety 19 Every day the army and navy air corps recruiting headquarters 20 Bend down the boys that have muscle imbalances and they are can 21 trained until they pass 100 per cent and go on ahead planes and fly 22 If we can do it for eviation we can do it for industry as soon as industry sees the results accomplished 23 The next two slides show you the relationship between 24 visual performance and production accuracy One is the visual 25 264 9k performance records for inspectors You have good vision fair vision and poor vision and the correlations are direct with speed of work In other words your speed you notice is highest with your poor vision The foreman will pick out an inspector and say That girl is my best inspector she is snappy and speedy But actually she is the one that lets things go through Accuracy of work at the bottom of the column that you saw is inverse In other words the better your vision the more accurate you are and the poorer 10 your vision the less accurate you are 11 The other slide demonstrates the same thing for clerical 12 work in which your record forms are shown by the columns 13 resting on the table indicating the relative amount of work 14 accomplished by people who passed the vision test and failed 15 in the three jobs indicated In other words you will do 16 more work and do it more accurately if you can pass all these 17 visual tests 18 Now this last slide I just threw on to show you how 19 nature or survival of the fittest eliminates automatically 20 the people that cannot do their job This is according to 21 the specialized occupations - three groups crane operators 22 clerks and loopers The crane operators you see are the 23 most perfect in all groups and the clerks acuity without 24 glasses is very bad Do you know why Most clerks are near25 sighted without their glasses They cannot see which does iok 265 not make them poor clerks perhaps quite the contrary but it is just a matter of record Among the loopers muscle imbalance is very high The girl working eight inches from her eyes is in predicament unless she has special visual skills | the Now what to do with the situation as is employees at work 1. You check the visual 1. with skills of these employees in the departments of critical production I repeat we must be realistic about programs in war times and not suggest an all program when industry could iron 10 out trouble spots but has no time for an all program 11 now at least 12 2 Correct the defects among the critical production 13 employees wherever possible 3. Shift the employees if necessary 14 What to do with new applicants 1. Allocate them and 15 16 place them according to their visual skills and I am sure Mr. Wolff will bear me out in wishing that the people that 17 18 he trains were tested and picked and allocated so he could 19 teach them what they can do 2. Correct them before hiring 20 wherever possible with glasses or with training or with 21 surgery Now just a word about the welders and just a comment 22 statement in the outline here Welding is mainly a 23 on your I believe of protective equipment and its use I 24 problem think the welder that wears his equipment where that equip- 25 llk oH 1 ment is adequate has no troubles It is the fellow that w breaks the rules accidentally or ignorantly that has trouble 3 We did a little job in research on welders on Vitamine A. 4 Welding does not make a bit of difference Welders have no 5 depletion of visual purple 6 Now in your Section C No. 1 under flash burns and 7 foreign bodies in the eye Mr. Ring has said that when you 8 put in your records the word shell it means a certain 9 things and you say An eye flash shall be treated only by 10 a doctor I wonder if you have any idea what that means 11 An eye flash is a simple thing to take care of We have a 12 lot of flashes but nothing compared to what the shipyards 13 have and we train our nurses to take care of flashes The 14 only thing we do is to make sure to see the cornea at the 15 time or within 24 or 36 hours so we know there has been no 16 injury to it or other trouble But to anesthetize the eye 17 toto make ice compresses to follow it up with directions at 18 home all of it under medical supervision and outlined by 19 || the doctor I grant you is something a nurse can do and if 20 | it is stated that It shall be treated only by a doctor " 21 ||) it means that that one thing has to be violated My sugges22 || tion would be that you indicate it should be done under a doctor's direction and leave it to his discretion how to 23 handle these things 24 Another thing came up One of the doctors asked me what 25 12k ~ 267 " to do in cases where flash symptoms do not develop for seven 2 or eight hours afterward and they report to a general hospital 3 and that general hospital does not know anything about in- 4 dustrial accidents or flashes and does not handle them well through 5 May I suggest that your Maritime Commission either 6 its medical consultants or the U. S. Public Health Department 7 issue a very simple sheet of instructions to general hospitals 8 in the industrial areas with directions on how to take care 9 of a case that comes in with a history of a flash There is 10 no more uncomfortable man and there is no man who suffers 11 not damage but suffers pain and discomfort as much as the 12 man with a flash who is not treated properly 13 I was very much amazed to hear this morning the comments 14 made that welders are off three or four days in the yards 15 Our welders go back on the job They are given and medication 16 to use during the day and told where first aid can give them 17 ice compresses once or twice during the day if necessary 18 They are not off the job except very rarely nor are foreign 19 bodies off the job unless serious 20 The comment was made that if you have a patch on a case 21 you send him home You cannot put him on a crane or a scaf- 22 fold but you can let him go back to work and if your men 23 are crane operators do not put them on the crane but you 24 can give them something to do and not have them be absentees 25 The final suggestion to you from a mere ophthalmologist 268 is first that where possible you think about visual tests even on the Pacific Coast where labor has not yet under- stood that tests for new applicants will come I can tell you sjt that in one plant here labor is the instigating power behind an all visual testing program to increase production in a 6 plant doing vital war work I am sure that as soon as labor knows this is not a discriminatory test but a test that will add to one's merit rating bring in more money they will not 9 be against it 2. Make a visual survey at the key spots of 10 your plant to find out what you have where you think your 11 trouble is 3 Have a goggles program to protect eyes 4 12 Use of the visual data you have to protect other people from defective eyes and finally 5 have a rehabilitation program You have been very kind Thank you 16 MR RING Dr. Kuhn knows by now when you put out you 17 lay yourself open for any attack on anything you have said 18 I am wondering if there are any questions Dr Kuhn did not 19 know she was going to be subjected to this cross examination 20 and I am going to take this on my own Has anybody any ques- 21 tions they would like to ask 22 DR CROFT I would like to ask what would be the simplest 23 and most accurate way of examining a test to put a man through through 24 before employment If we are going to have employment I 25 would like to ask the simplest to maintain accuracy o 14k nd nsert DR KUHN 269 For the last two years we have been working 2 on a new instrument It is not fully on the market yet 3 but it is being released in spite of priorities But I i 4 am sure shipyard peopled would be in the vanguard of the 5 right and need for this instrument It is an instrument 6 designed and manufactured by Bausch & Lomb Optical Company However we have had to set up a compromise program which has been put to use these last two years in which we have drawn up for the telebinocular entirely new record forms and entirely different interpretations of tests MR RING Of course this is way over my head but are there any more technical questions I want to say to Dr. Kuhn that we appreciate very very 14 deeply the time and the sacrifice that she has made to be 15 with us and we are very very thankful to have had the 16 opportunity of listening to her discourse and I am sure it 17 will be very helpful to everyone here 18 Thank you very much indeed Doctor 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 270 DR SPENCER Could we possibly have copies of Dr. Kuhn's address I think would all profit by it if we had it CHAIRMAN RING Suppose we put in an order now for mimeographed copies to the extent I would say of about 500 of Dr. Kuhn's remarks The stenotypist can prepare that for us and deliver it to the Maritime Commission and I will have it distributed to everyone who is here I think we are ready to take up the report from Dr. 10 Drinker on the medical and health standards and now I think 11 that that committee on which Mr. Roche is ex officio member 12 and which is composed of Mr. Kaye Kr Kendall Mr. Frazier 13 Mr. Johnson Mr. Fail Mr. Graham may rolulp their shirts and get together and be ready to report here at 2:00 15 o'clock with a comprehensive program that will enable us to 16 get the minimum standards of safety out of the way 17 I will now turn this meeting to Dr. Drinker 18 DR DRINKER I would suggest in this report that we 19 skim through a rehash very rapidly of the things which we 20 know are not controversial and let us get them out of the 21 way and then come back to the items on which we ask the committee to report because that will unquestionably have 22 to have a little discussion 23 On Section A medical facilities it was suggested that 24 we had too few clerks down there under paragraph 4 and that 25 10e 7 9 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 we should change that where it says at least two clerks to at least three clerks Are there any objections to that I assume that is approved then There was a suggestion that there be a station wagon provided within the yard to be used as an ambulance inside the yard I do not think we need to make that obligatory but we could put it in as a suggestion You remember it was said that a station wagon running around about the yard worked out better than an ambulance because of the feeling the people had of an ambulance going around It seems that is a matter of preference and could be left to the medical and safety groups especially to the medical in the yard Is there any objection to that It seems to be O.K. It was suggested that in physical facilities there be a statement definitely in that list that there bea pro- vision for a clerk and registration desk which will be put in so there will be a distinct room for the registering and purely clerical part of it as distinguished from the records that you might want to get only the nurses or the doctor to take It was also suggested that in the physical facilities we state definitely that provision may be necessary in cer- tain districts as in the south for what amount to facil- itate handling four groups that is male female white Castleman's US Govt Contractor Regs with ROM Document #GCR 4 DATE 1942 O if undated Walsh Healey Act Safety & Health Standards government agency report magazine article meeting - agenda minutes attendees _ memorandum letter Navy regulations for shipbuilders other