Document KzpMOe5njJoRkGRvkLqBJYa6

FILE NAME: CertainTeed (CERT) DATE: 1982 Feb 2 DOC#: CERT053 DOCUMENT DESCRIPTION: Legal - Horowitz Deposition Part 2 with Attachment ij3 0 UBLU0IJSBQ 1 OMALD WEISBERG, ESQUIRE nd M E Y E R A . B U S H M A N , 2 SQUIRE, CO-EXECUTORS F THE E S T A T E OF 3 IELVIN P. TIMBERS COURT OF C O M M O N P L E A S OF P H I L A D E L P H I A C 0 U NT Y 4 VS . MAY TERM, 1978 5 BELL ASBESTOS MINES, LTD. NO . 4 62 9 6 ELSIE HAYDEN, ADMINISTRA T R I X OF TH E E S T A T E OF 7 JESSE HAYDEN, DECEASED COURT OF C O M M O N P L E A S OF P H I L A D E L P H I A C O U N T Y 8 VS . NOVEMBER TERM, 1978. 9 BELL ASBESTOS MINES, LTD., ET AL : NO. 3624 10 11 P E T E R S E R R A T O R E a n d MARJORIE SERRATORE, his wife : COURT OF C O M M O N PLEA S OF P H I L A D E L P H I A C O U N T Y . 12 VS JULY TERM, 1979 13 BELL ASBESTOS MINES, LTD., 14 ET.AL : NO. 3348 15 ROSEMARY E. COULSTO N , : A DM I N I S T R A T R I X OF THE 16 E S T A T E OF C H A R L E S W. COULSTON, AND ROSEMARY 17 E. C O U L S T O N , on her own b e h a l f , ET AL 18 VS . 1 9 BELL ASBESTOS MINES, LTD., 20 ET AL : COURT OF C O M M O N PLEAS OF M O N T G O M E R Y C O U N T Y NO. 80-5250 21 'All L I N E G A S K I N S , A D M I N I 22 S T R A T R I X OF T H E E S T A T E OF iLFRED G A S K I N S , ' ET AL C O U R T OF C O M M O N P L E A S OF M O N T G O M E R Y C OUNTY 23 VS . 24 SELL A S B E S T O S M I N E S , L T D . , :t AL 25 NO. 80-12774 Knipes-Cohen Associates 1 2 2 JOHNNIE WILLIAMS and RUTH F. W I L L I A M S , his 3 wife COURT OF C O M M O N PLEAS OF P H I L A D E L P H I A C OUNTY 4 VS . AUGUST TERM, 1980 5 BELL ASBESTOS MINES, LTD., ET AL 6 ROSE MARY MACO, EXECUTRIX 7 of the E s t a t e of PAUL M A C O , SR ., a n d R O S E M A R Y 8 MACO, on her own behalf 9 VS . 10 BELL ASBESTOS MINES, LTD., ET AL ' 11 EDWARD BARNES and NANNIE 12 B A R N E S , his w i f e NO. 3710 COURT OF C O M M O N PLEAS OF M O N T G O M E R Y C 0 U NT Y NO. 80-18537 C O U R T OF C O M M O N P L E A S OF P H I L A D E L P H I A COUNTY 13 VS . 14 BELL ASBESTOS MINES, LTD., ET AL 1 5 WARDELL M. BAILEY and 16 ROSE E L L A B A I L E Y , his wife 17 VS . 18 BELL ASBESTOS MINES, LTD., 19 ET AL 20 W I L L I A M R . D I X O N a n d 21 M A T T I E N. D I X O N , h is wife 22 VS . 23 B E L L A S B E S T O S M I N E S , L T D . , ET AL - 24 DECEMBER TERM, 1980 NO. 4429 COURT OF C O M M O N PLEAS OF P H I L A D E L P H I A C O UNTY MAY TERM, 1981 NO. 1675 COURT OF C O M M O N PLEAS OF P H I L A D E L P H I A COUNTY OCTOBER TERM, 1981 NO . 28 74 25 Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000886 1 3 2 C o n t i n u e d V i d e o t a p e D e p o s i t i o n of 3 L E O N H O R O W I T Z , t a k e n p u r s u a n t to n o t i c e at- the. o f f i c e s 4 of K N I P E S - C O H E N A S S O C I A T E S , 400 M a r k e t S t r e e t , 10th 5 Floor, P h i l a d e l p h i a , P e n n s y l v a n i a , on T u e s d a y , 6 F e b r u a r y 2, 1 9 8 2 , at 9 : 3 0 a . m ,, , E . S . T . , b e f o r e 7 Claude Forte, Notary Public and Videotape Operator 8 and Suzanne McLaughlin White, Registered Professional 9 R e p o r t e r , N o t a r y P u b l i c , in and for the C o u n t y of 10 Philadelphia, there being-present: 11 12 A P P E A R A N C E S : 13 BLANK, ROME, C0MISKY & McCAULEY, ESQUIRES 14 BY: M I T C H E L L COHEN, ESQUIRE Representing Plaintiffs. 1 5 SHE IN 8 BROOKMAN, ESQUIRES 16 B Y : ROBERT PAUL, ESQUIRE Representing Plaintiffs 17 POST 8 SCHELL, ESQUIRES 18 BY: F. J A M E S G A L L O , E S Q U I R E Representing Bell Asbestos Mines, Ltd. 19 20 M A L C O L M 3 R I L E Y , E S Q U I R E S BY: PETER COLEMAN, ESQUIRE Representing Celotex 21 22 M A R S H A L L , & G0GGIN, DENNEHEY, ESQUIRES WARNER, COLEMAN BY: M I C H A E L C R E ED0N, ESQU I R E 23 Representing Johns-Manvilie Corporation 24 25 (Continued) Kn~ipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.tkluuu/ 1 4 2 CONTINUED APPEARANCES: 3 - MESIROV, GELMAN, JA FFE, CRAMER 8 JAMIESON, ESQUIRES 4 BY: RANDI WERNER, ESQUIRE Representing GAF 5 OMINSKY, JOSEPH 8 WELSH, ESQUIRES BY: CLIVE M E N D E L O W , ESQUIRE Representing Asbestos Corporation 7 Limited 8 PEPPER, HAMILTON 8 SCHEETZ, ESQUIRES BY: DIANA JONIEC, ESQUIRE 9 Representing Amatex 1 O SWARTZ, CAMPBELL 8 DETWEILER, 11 ESQUIRES BY: DANIEL . BRUCH, JR., ESQUIRE Representing Certa inteed 1 2 BENNETT, BRICKLIN 8 SALTZBURG, 13 ESQUIRES BY: MARY ANN CONNERS, ESQUIRE 14 Representing Nicolet 1 5 LaBRUM 8 DOAK, ESQUIRES BY: W I L L I A M TAYLOR, JR., ESQU I R E 1 6 Representing Keene Corporation 1 7 HARVEY, PENNINGTON, HERTING 8 RENNEISEN, ESQUIRES 18 BY : J OEL GUSKY, ESQUIRE Representing Carey-Canadian Mines, T9 Ltd. 20 DECHERT, P R I C E S RHOADS, ESQUIRES 21 BY: J O H N MASON, ESQUIRE Representing Turner-Newall 22 PEPPER, HAMILTON 8 SCHEETZ, ESQUIRES BY: PATRICIA CARPENTER, ESQUIRE 23 R e p r e s e n t i n g La k e A s b e s t o s of Quebec 24 25 (Continued) Knip es-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000888 1 5 2 C O NT I N U E D A P P E A R A N C E S : 3 McWilliams s sweeney, esquires BY: WALTER JENKINS, ESQUIRE 4 R e p r e s e n t i n g Special A s b e s t o s Co. 5 SHEA S GARNER, ESQUIRES BY: S. E L I Z A B E T H GIBSON, ESQUIRE 6 Representing Brinco Mining Ltd. 7 8 9 10 11 1 2 1 3 1 4 15 1 6 17 18 1 9 20 21 22 23 24 25 Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000889 1 6 2 3 I-N-D-E-X 4 WITNESS D I R E C T C R O S S R E D I R E C T RE CROS S 5 LEON HOROWITZ 6 By : M i t c h e l l Cohen 7 By : R o b e r t Paul 8 By: S. E l i z a b e t h G i b s o n - - 9 -- 171 - - -- -134 184,202 - - - 9 By : J o h n Mason 1 0 By : F. J a m e s G a l l o 11 12 -- * 1 93 -- -- - _ 1 98 -- _ 1 3 14 1 5 1 6 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Knipes-Cohen Associates Gaslleman.GERT000890 1 7 2 OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSIONS AND BREAKS PAGE NUMBER 3 Discussions - 9:54 am - 9:55 a m 1 1 4 Break -11:02 am - 11:15 a m 74 5 Break - 1:10 pm - 1 :24 p m 1 71 6 7 8 9 1 0 11 12 13 14 1 5 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000891 8 1 2 , MR. PAUL: Robert Paul for 3 Plaintiffs, Weisberg and Bushman. I have 4 two very q u ic k s t a t e m e n t s I want to make. First of all, on behalf of P l a i n t i f f s 5 6 W e i s b e r g and B u s h m a n , our a g r e e m e n t that we 7 m a d e y e s t e r d a y , late a f t e r n o o n , the p o i n t at 8 which Mr. Cohen's cross e x a m i n a t i o n of this 9 w i t n e s s is c o m p l e t e d / that our case w o u l d be 10 f i n i s h e d , that we would waive the e x a m i n a t i o n 11 by Mr. Lock s for use in our case, and in our 12 case only. - 13 On b e h a l f of Mr. Locks and Mr. 14 G r e i t z e r , they -- I spoke to Mr. G r e i t z e r y e s t e r d a y a f t e r n o o n at the close of y e s t e r d a y s 1 5 1 6 session, and they indicated that they did not 17 wish to w a i v e t h e i r cross e x a m i n a t i o n of this 18 w i t n e s s , and that they woul d not -- th ey were 19 not able to appe ar today, beca us e they b e l i e v e d 20 y e s t e r d a y would be the one day, and they reserve 21 t h e i r right to cr os s, and Mr. Ga l l o and Mr. 22 H o r o w i t z , and e i t h e r M r . G r e i t z e r or Mr. Locks 23 will have to work out anot he r day for the 24 c r o s s e x a m i n a t i o n of t h i s w i t n e s s by e i t h e r n c Mr. Gr e i t z e r or Mr. Locks, for their case. Knipes-Cohen A ssoci>ates Castleman.CERT000892 1 9 2 In the a b s e n c e of t h a t , u n t i l that 3 o c c u r s , t h e i r c o n t e n t i o n is t h a t the d e p o s i t i o n 4 is not o p e n -- is not c o m p l e t e d , r a t h e r , as 5 to them, and they would object on that ground, 6 to its use in t h e i r case. Is t h a t - - do you 7 u n d e r s t a n d that, Mr. Gallo, what I've said on 8 their behalf? 9 MR. GALLO: I understand what you 1 0 said, Mr. Paul. I will just note for the 11 r e c o r d t h a t the d e p o s i t i o n is n o t i c e d to 1 2 c o n t i n u e from day to day until c o m p l e t e d , and 13 they did r e c e i v e n o t i c e of that d e p o s i t i o n , 1 4 in that l a n g u a g e . 1 5 That'sail. 1 6 MR. FORTE: We're now back on the 1 7 r e c o r d . T h i s is the b e g i n n i n g of v i d e o t a p e 18 n u m b e r six. T o d a y ' s d a t e is F e b r u a r y 2 nd, 1 9 8 2 . 1 9 T h e time is 9:52. 20 BY M R . C O H E N : 21 q . Mr. H o r o w i t z , M i t c h e l l Cohen, again, on behalf 22 of c e r t a i n P l a i n t i f f s in t h i s A c t i o n . 23 Since other Counsel has completed his 24 q u e s t i o n i n g , I w o u l d l i k e t o p i c k up w h e r e we left off 25 d u r i n g t h e e a r l i e r par t -- p o r t i o n of t h i s v i d e o t a p e . Knipes-Cohen: Associ|ates Castleman.CERT000893 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 1 0 2 . Let me a s k , f i r s t , it was a p p a r e n t tha t y o u b r o u g h t w ith 3 you y e s t e r d a y , a n u m b e r of d o c u m e n t s and r e c o r d s , some o 4 w h i c h h a v e b e e n o f f e r e d as e x h i b i t s in this d e p o s i t i o n . 5 And, I do u n d e r s t a n d that s u b s e q u e n t to your being 6 d e p o s e d in J u n e of 1980, that you were a s k e d to r e v i e w 7 your personal records that you brought with you from 8 K e a s b e y and M a t t i s o n or C e r t a i n t e e d , to d e t e r m i n e 9 whether you had any other documents and records relat 10 ing to or that were gene r a t e d while you were employed 11 by b o t h o f t h o s e c o m p a n i e s ; is t h a t c o r r e c t ? 12 A. T h a t is c o r r e c t . 13 Q . 14 Okay. And, s u b s e q u e n t to that d e p o s i t i o n , 1 5 did you have o c c a s i o n to review your p e r s o n a l notes 16 to d e t e r m i n e w h e t h e r there were any other d o c u m e n t s 17 and r e c o r d s g e n e r a t e d by you or kept by you, while 18 yo u w e r e e m p l o y e d , w h i c h w e r e not p r o d u c e d at t h e 19 June 30th, 1980 deposition? 20 A . T h a t is true. 21 Q . 0 k ay . 22 A n d , am I c o r r e c t t h a t y o u f o u n d c e r 23 tain d o c u m e n t s and r e c o rd s f o l l o w i n g that d e p o s i t i o n ? 24 A. I found a few documents. 25 Q . _ 0kay. Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000894 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 11 2 Now, -- 3. MR. PAUL: Before we go forward, can 4 we stop the videotape for just a moment? 5 MR. FORTE: Yes, we're now going off 6 the r e c o r d at 9:54. 7 (Whereupon discussions were held off 8 the record from 9:54 am to 9:55 am) 9 MR. GUSKY: Were you given any 1 O e x p l a n a t i o n as to -- by Mr. L o c k s , as to why 11 he cannot be here today? 12 MR . GALLO : No, I wasn't. 13 MR . G U S K Y : Okay, thank you. 14 MR . GALLO : But, Mr. Locks did agree 1 5 t h a t a n y t h i n g t h a t is s a i d h e r e t o d a y can be 1 6 us e d i n his cases, s u b j e c t to his right to cross 17 e x a m i n e at length at some later d a t e . 18 MS . G I B S O N : W e l l , if we fini s h up 1 9 b e f o r e the end of the day and Mr. Locks isn't 20 here t0 eros s examine , it's Brinco's position 21 t h a t t h i s d e p o s i t i o n is c o m p l e t e . 22 MR . G A L L O : W e l l , it c a n ' t -- t h a t ' s 23 not the u n d e r s t a n d i n g -- it c a n ' t be by v i r t u e of 24 s t i p u l a t i o n s we made yest e r d a y . 2 5 MR. PAUL: Which you are p r e s e n t to make Knipes-Cohen Associ^ates Castleman.CERT000895 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 12 2 MR. COHEN: Okay. 3 MR. FORTE: We're back on the record, 4 t h e t i m e is 9 : 5 7 . 5 BY MR. COHEN: 6 Q. Mr. H o r o w i t z , pr i o r to the very short break 7 we just took/ I was asking you, and I b e l i e v e you 8 s t a t e d that s u b s e q u e n t to the J u n e 3 0 t h , d e p o s i t i o n , 9 y o u d i d d i s c o v e r s o m e d o c u m e n t s an d r e c o r d s ; is that 10 correct? 11 A. T h a t is c o r r e c t . 12 Q. A n d , I w o u l d like y ou to look, if y o u w o u l d , at 13 E x h i b i t # 2 8 , w h i c h is a l e t t e r , I b e l i e v e y o u i d e n t i f i e d 14 as s i g n i n g , w h i c h was a d d r e s s e d to Ms. G i b s o n , w h o is 1 5 an a t t o r n e y at the law f i r m of S h e a a nd G a r n e r in 16 W a s h i n g t o n ; is t h a t c o r r e c t ? 17 A. T h a t is c o r r e c t . 18 q . A n d it p u r p o r t s to h a v e i n c l u d e d in th a t with 19 tha t c o v e r l e t t e r s o m e m a t e r i a l s r e l a t i n g to the J u n e 20 3 0 t h d e p o s i t i o n . A n d , d i d y o u , in f a c t , i n c l u d e c e r t a i n 21 d o c u m e n t s a n d r e c o r d s a l o n g w i t h t h i s c o v e r l e t t e r to 22 Ms. G i b s o n ? 23 A. Yes, I d id. 24 q . Do you have w i t h y o u any of the d o c u m e n t s and 25 r e c o r d s t h a t y o u s u b m i t t e d to Ms. G i b s o n w i t h t h i s ----------------- -- ~ Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000896 1 Leon Horowitz - Cross 13 2 cover letter? 3 A. N o ., I d o n o t . 4 MR. COHEN: Let me ask at this 5 t i m e , s i n c e Ms. G i b s o n is p r e s e n t w h e t h e r 6 Brinco does have the documents and records 7 t h a t w e r e sent to it by Mr. H o r o w i t z ? 8 MR. GALLO: Objection, that's 9 not part of the'-- 1 0 MR. C O H E N : O k a y , w e l l , if - 11 MR. GALLO: -- trial of cross 12 e x a m i n a t i o n to ask another a t t o r n e y something. 13 MR. COHEN: -- I unders t a n d that. 14 W e l l , if the d o c u m e n t s are not to be p r o d u c e d 1 5 the n l am going to reserve the right to call 16 Mr. Horowitz back, because there were certain 17 documents that were not produced and made 18 a v a i l a b l e to me as Counsel for P l a i n t i f f s , 1 9 w h i c h were d i s c o v e r e d by Mr. H o r o w i t z . And, 20 accordingly, I will not agree that this 21 d e p o s i t i o n will c o n c l u d e at any time u n t i l 22 I've had the o p p o r t u n i t y to examine those 23 d o c u m e n t s and r ecords to d e t e r m i n e w h e t h e r 24 there was any r e l e vance to the q u e s t i o n s that 25 I intend to ask with regard to the P l a i n t i f f s Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000897 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 14 2 that I represent. 3 MR. GALLO: ALL right, Let me make a 4 s t a t e m e n t as to that. We can go off the tape 5 for this. 6 MR. FORTE: We're now going off the 7 reco r d at 9:59. 8 MR. PAUL: Before we -- I aLso wish 9 t o j o i n in M r . C o h e n ' s o b j e c t i o n o n b e h a l f of. 10 our Plaintiff. 11 MR. GALLO: Right. This videotape 12 d e p o s i t i o n for use at trial was n o t i c e d 13 J a n u a r y 1 1 , 1 9 8 1 . It was sen t to b o t h She in 14 a nd B r o o k m an and B l a n k , R o m e , Comi sky. and 1 5 M c C a u l e y , and it was n o t i c e d for y e s t e r d a y , 1 6 F e b r u a r y 1st. It's now F e b r u a r y 2nd. And at 17 no time did any of the C o u n s e l for P l a i n t i f f s 18 n o t i c e a d i s c o v e r y p r o c e e d i n g of this w i t n e s s . 19 T h i s d e p o s i t i o n was n o t i c e d as a d e p o s i t i o n , 20 it w o u l d be p r e s e n t e d in the t r i a l s in e a c h of 21 t h e s e c a s e s , and it is not a p p r o p r i a t e for 22 counsel now to take d i s c o v e r y of the w i t n e s s or 23 to a t t e m p t to p r e c l u d e use of t h i s d e p o s i t i o n at 24 tri a l , b e c a u s e of their own f a i l u r e to take 25 discovery. They were furni s h e d with copies of ; Knipes-C: ohe~n 'A ssociates Castleman.CERT000898 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 15 2 the d e p o s i t i o n and s w o r n t e s t i m o n y g i v e n by 3 t h i s w i t n e s s on o t h e r o c c a s i o n s , w h i c h is 4 the only t e s t i m o n y he has given in the a s b e s t o s 5 l i t i g a t i o n s . And the d o c u m e n t s i n t r o d u c e d at 6 t h a t t i m e ---t h e r e w a s n e v e r a n y i n q u i r y by 7 B l a n k , Rome to me, r e g a r d i n g any o t h e r d o c u m e n t s 8 or any o t h e r m a t t e r s that the w i t n e s s had in 9 his p o s s e s s i o n . And, in fact, a l t h o u g h we were 1 0 here y e s t e r d a y , M r . Cohen didn't request produc 11 t i o n of d o c u m e n t s at that time so that he 12 could r e view them at his, leisure last night. 13 F u r t h e r , I w o u l d o b j e c t to y o u r -- well,- 14 y o u r s t a t e m e n t s a y s w h a t it s a y s a n d I 've 1 5 stated my position. 16 MR. COHEN: All right, let me just 17 s t a t e in d i s c u s s i n g the m a t t e r , it was r e p r e 18 s e n t e d to me -that the d o c u m e n t s t h a t w e r e in 1 9 e x i s t e n c e were t h o s e that w ere a t t a c h e d as 20 exhibits to the June 30th, 1980 deposition. 21 Now, I discover yesterday for the first time that 22 there are additional documents and records, 23 s o m e of w h i c h were -- or are in the p o s s e s s i o n 24 of oth e r D e f e n s e counsel. To the extent that 25 the w i t n e s s is in p o s s e s s i o n or o t h e r D e f e n d a n t s _ _ Knipes-Cohen A s~s~ociates Castleman.CERT000899 / 1 Leon Horowitz - C r o s s 16 2 are in p o s s e s s i o n of d o c u m e n t s and r e c o r d s 3 p e c u l i a r to them and w h i c h are in t h e i r sole 4 c u s t o d y a n d c o n t r o l , I ' m g o i n g to a s k f o r an 5 i n s t r u c t i o n by the Court to the Ju r y with 6 r e g a r d to the d o c u m e n t s and r e c ords, to the 7 e f f e c t that they w o u l d be a d v e r s e to the 8 p a r t i e s that are in p o s s e s s i o n of th o s e r e c o r d s , 9 since they have not been produced and are 1 0 avai table.. 11 MR. GALLO: Well, thank you. 12 MR. COHEN: Excuse me, you don't have 13 to thank me. 14 MR. GALLO: I was going to thank you 1 5 for g i v i n g us a p r e v i e w of your trial s t r a t e g y . 1 6 M R . C O H E N : W e l l , it d o e s n ' t t a k e a 17 g e n i u s to f i g u r e t h a t o u t , if t h a t came as a 18 s t r a t e g y thing, so be it. 19 I , a g a i n , am going to renew my 20 o b j e c t i o n s and I will m ove at the a p p r o p r i a t e 21 time to preclude this deposition for being 22 i n t r o d u c e d . I'm going to ask again, since 23 C o u n s e l is here in the i n t e r e s t of s a v i n g ti m e , 24 on b e h a l f of t h e C o u r t , w h e t h e r I ca n l o o k at 25 any documents and records that were turned over _ Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000900 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 17 2 by M r . H o r o w i t z , s i n c e it g o e s t o h i s 3 c r e d i b i l i t y as well as the s u b s t a t i v e 4 i s s u e s of t h e l i t i g a t i o n . If I ' m g o i n g to 5 be r e f u s e d at this time the d o c u m e n t s and 6 records are present, then, all we're doing 7 is g o i n g to w a s t e the C o u r t ' s time that s o m e 8 t h i n g that could be p r o v i d e d to me now and 9 negate the entire objection I'm making. So, 1 0 I'm g o i n g to ask a g a i n if C o u n s e l w i l l p r o v i d e 11 me with the documents and records. 12 MR. GALLO: Why don't you just ask 13 the w i t n e s s if he has them with him. 14 MR. COHEN: I already did. 15 MR. MASON: Why doesn't somebody 16 give them to him? 17 M R . C O H E N : If y ou want to p l a y 18 games, we can - 19 MR. MASON: Save time, give him the 20 box . 21 MR. GUSKY: Let me make a s t a tement 22 for the record. 23 MR . G A L L O : Ho w long is it g o i n g to 24 take? 2 5 MR. COHEN: I don't know what I'm Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000901 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 18 2 L o o k i n g at. I c o u l d be l o o k i n g at n o t h i n g , 3 or I c o u l d be l o o k i n g at t h i n g s - 4 M R . G A L L O : Why d i d n ' t y ou look at 5 them yesterday. 6 MR. COHEN: Well, why didn't you tell 7 me yest e r d a y that there were other documents. 8 MS. GIBSON: The deposition makes 9 that clear. 1 0 MR. COHEN: Well, I wasn't advised 11 t h a t t h e y w e r e p r o d u c e d any way. It was 12 r e p r e s e n t e d to me that the only thing that was 13 g o i n g to be done was a r e p e t i t i o n of the 14 June 30th deposition. 1 5 MR. GALLO: That was all that was 16 done, on direct. 17 MR. COHEN: Well, that's not true, 18 b e c a u s e we have at least one o t h e r d o c u m e n t 19 20 MR . GALLO : I said on the direct. 21 Do you have s o m e t h i n g to say, J o e l ? 22 MR . G U S K Y : Since I appar e n t l y was 23 the pe r s o n that opened the pando r a ' s box on 24 t h i s i s s u e , I have in my p o s s e s s i o n w h a t is mar 25 as E x h i b i t 28, E x h i b i t 29. I f o u n d in my file, Knipes-Cohen A ssoci.ates Castleman.CERT000902 1 Leon Horowitz - C r o s s 19 2 which I keep of certain w i t n e s s e s who are deposed, 3 memorandum from Ms. Gibson, dated July 14, 1980 4 in c o n n e c t i o n with d o c u m e n t s which Mr. H o r o w i t z 5 p r o v i d e d her, p u r p o r t e d l y in r e s p o n s e to, or as 6 a s u p p l e m e n t to E x h ibit 28. I will give to 7 Mr. Cohen the pac k e t of d o c u m e n t s which I 8 r e c e i v e d . I m a k e no r e p r e s e n t a t i o n t h a t t h i s is 9 the e n t i r e scope of the d o c u m e n t s , b e c a u s e the 1 0 da t e is a l m o s t a year and a half from t o d a y ' s 11 date, my r e c o l l e c t i o n doesn't go back that far 12 with respect to that issue. 13 MR. COHEN: Let me just -- can I ask 14 you, Jo e l , to hold on to them now. I a p p r e c i a t e 1 5 your c o u r t e s y in m a k i n g them a v a i l a b l e . 1 6 Okay, we can go back on then. 17 MR. FORTE: We're back on the record. 18 T he time is 10:0 5 . 19 3Y M R . C O H E N : 20 . Okay, with regard to your a p p e a r a n c e here 21 y e s t e r d a y , d i d y o u h a v e o c c a s i o n t o d i s c u s s t h e f a c t 22 t h a t y o u w e r e g o i n g t o be d e p o s e d - - o r h a d b e e n 23 c a l l e d for d e p o s i t i o n w i t h a n y o n e , p r i o r to a p p e a r i n g 24 i/octArHav? 25 A. I was c a l l e d by Mr. Gallo, and a s k e d to -- asked Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000903 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 20 2 f I w o u l d d e p o s e ag a i n in this case. 3 . And, can you tell me what arr a n g e m e n t s were 4 ade b e t w e e n you and Mr. G a l l o with r e g a r d to 5 o m p e n s a t i o n of you as a fact w i t n e s s in this 6 eposition? 7 . My cost of t r a v e l , the hotel bill and meals, 8 nd I a s k e d for c o m p e n s a t i o n equal to the loss of time 9 would have on my job. 10 . Now, can you tell me what fee you asked for 11 n terms of c o m p e n s a t i o n for being a fact witness 1.2 n t h i s l i t i g a t i o n , w h a t w a s t h e a g r e e d u p o n 13 rrangement? 14 MR. GALLO: Objection. 1 5 THE WITNESS: There was no dollar 1 6 aqreement . 17 Y M R . C O H E N : 18 i. W e l l , in y our m i n d , how m u c h do you b e l i e v e you 1 9 re e n t i t l e d to as c o m p e n s a t i o n for your a p p e a r a n c e 20 e s t e r d a y , t o d a y - 21 MR. GALLO: Objection to the form. 22 THE WITNESS: I have to answer 23 that? 24 MR. GALLO: Yes 25 T H E W I T N E S S : I a g r e e d , in my m i n d , as Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000904 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 21 2 w e l l as in my d i s c u s s i o n w ith Mr. G a l l o that 3 I would ask for the same fee I asked for when 4 I d e p o s e d in W a s h i n g t o n . 5 MR. COHEN: 6 . Okay/ and can you tell me/ s p e c ifically/ what 7 hat fee is? 8 . E x c e p t for t h e c o s t / it was t h r e e h u n d r e d 9 ollars a day. 10 MR. GALLO: Note my o b j e c t i o n to 11 that wh o l e line of q u e s t i o n i n g . 12 Y MR. COHEN: 13 . Now/ am I correct that you are on your own time 14 ith regard to the time you're spending being deposed/ 15 n other words, you are taking vacation time from your 16 mp loyment? 17 . You are correct. 18 . All right. 1 9 And, are you normally compensated 20 :or d a y s t h a t y o u t a k e as v a c a t i o n d a y s by y o u r 21 imp l o y e r ? 22 I'm e n t i t l e d to a c e r tain number of v a c a t i o n 23 Jays. 24 Okay. 25 But, you are compensated for those days Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000905 1 Leon Horowitz - Cross 22 2 of v a c a t i o n t h a t y o u t a k e f r o m y o u r e m p l o y m e n t ; is 3 thatcorrect? 4 A. I am. But, I would like to make a s t a t e m e n t 5 a b o u t t h a t , if I m a y ? I am a l s o a c o n s u l t a n t in 6 i n d u s t r i a l h y g i e n e , and many of the days that I take 7 f or v a c a t i o n , I u se as a c o n s u l t a n t , a n d th a t is the 8 fee, minimum fee, that I get for consultation. 9 Q. Now, can you tell us with whom you have any 10 c o n s u l t i n g a r r a n g e m e n t s to t e s t i f y w i t h ? 11 A. I have no c o n s u l t i n g a r r a n g e m e n t s to testify 12 with anybody. 13 Q . 1 4 Okay. Well, can you tell us what asbestos 1 5 c o m p a n i e s have r e t a i n e d you in the past as a c o n s u l t i n g 16 witness on their behal f ? 17 A . Nobody. 18 Q. Now, when you con -- when you are a consultant, 1 9 can y o u tell me, has it b e e n your u n d e r s t a n d i n g that 20 as a c o n s u l t a n t , y o u t e s t i f y as to m a t t e r s of e x p e r t i s e 21 a n d t h e r e f o r e , y o u a r e a c o n s u l t i n g e x p e r t f o r t h e 22 c o m p a n y t h a t m a y e n g a g e y o u ? 23 A. I d o n ' t t e s t i f y a s ac o n s u l t a n t in g e n e r a l . 24 Q. We l l , in what c a p a c i t y - 25 A. I don't testify. Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000906 1 Leon Horowitz - Cross 23 2 Q. Okay. 3 A. I do e n g i n e e r i n g work for them/ or i n d u s t r i a l 4 hygiene work. 5 Q. Okay. 6 A. 7 q. When I consult. But/ you are -- you a r e / t h e r e f o r e / not in a 8 consulting arrangement with any corporation with regard 9 to your t e s t i m o n y here? 10 A . 11 Q . 12 No. 0kay . Now/ are you g o i n g to be paid by you r e m p l o y e r 13 for t h e v a c a t i o n d a y s t h a t y o u are t a k i n g b o t h y e s t e r 14 d a y a n d t o d a y in a d d i t i o n to the six h u n d r e d 15 dollars remuneration which you will seek from 16 C o u n s e l ? 17 A. I hope so. 18 Q . Okay. 19 An d , is yo u r emp loyer a w a r e t h a t you 20 a r e h e r e t o d a y t e s t i f y i n g , or t h a t y o u w e r e h e r e 21 y e s t e r d a y t e s t i f y i n g at a f e e of t h r e e h u n d r e d d o l l a r s 22 p e r d a y ? * 23 MR. GALLO: Objection. 24 THE WITNESS: They are not aware that 25 I am here today or y e s t e r d a y , but they -- may I _ _Knipes-Cohen Associ_ates Castleman.CERT000907 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 24 2 add to that s t a t e m e n t ? 3 MR. COHEN: Certainly. 4 THE WITNESS: They were aware that 5 I was t e s t i f y i n g in W a s h i n g t o n . In fact, Ms. 6 G i b s o n was t h e r e when our a t t o r n e y sat in and 7 her c o m p a n y -- her o f f i c e q u e s t i o n e d me as to 8 w h e t h e r I might bec o m e -- be able to be a 9 w i t n e s s in W a s h i n g t o n . 1 0 MR. COHEN: 11 . O k a y , so your a n s w e r is -- - 12 . So, they were aware before, but I did not make 13 h e m a w a r e a g a i n . A n d , if I h a d k n o w n t h a t y o u 14 o u l d have b r o u g h t A m e r i c a n M u t u a l in as you did 15 n y e s t e r d a y ' s q u e s t i o n i n g , I would have spo k e n to my 1 6 17 Okay. 18 And, you were also advised, were you 19 ot, y e s t e r d a y , p r i o r to the d e p o s i t i o n b e g i n n i n g , tha t 20 m e r i c a n M u t u a l was n a m e d as a D e f e n d a n t in a s b e s t o s 21 i t i g a t i o n - - 22 MR. GALLO: Objection. 23 IY M R . C O H E N : 24 t. -- were you not, and you were given the oppor- 25 u n i t y t o h a v e y o u r s e l f d e p o s e d o r n o t , or s e e k c o u n s e l , Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000908 1 Leon Horowitz - Cross 2 prior to the d e p o s i t i o n b e g i n n i n g ; is t hat c o r r e c t ? 3 A. No, the q u e s t i o n is c o n f u s i n g , but if y o u mean, 4 was I a d v i s e d p r i o r to this d e p o s i t i o n ? 5 Q. Immediately before the deposition began 6 yesterday. 7 That - - that American Mutual was -- I don't 8 recall that. 9 MR. G ALLO: I'll o b j e c t , and move to 10 strike the question, totally irrelevant. 11 B Y M R . C O H E N : 12 Q * Is t h e r e any r e a s o n why you did not n o t i f y your 13 e m p l o y e r of t h i s p a r t i c u l a r d e p o s i t i o n ? 14 A None of their d a m n e d b u s i n e s s , unle s s I knew 1 5 that you wer e g o i n g to b r i n g in A m e r i c a n M u t u a l . 16 T h e n , it was t h e i r b u s i n e s s . 17 Prior to y e s t e r d a y , were you aware that 18 A m e r i c a n M u t u a l w a s a D e f e n d a n t in a s b e s t o s 19 litigation? 20 A. In some, yes, 21 MR. GALLO: Note my objection 22 23 BY M R . C O H E N : 24 Q. Do you - 25 MR. GALLO: -- to this whole line of Knip es-Cohen Associates Castlemah.CERT000909 1 Leon Horowitz - C r o s s 26 2 questioning concerning American-Mutual. 3 May I have a continuing objection 4 so we c a n s p e e d it up? 5 MR. COHEN: You certainly may. 6 You certainly may. 7 M R . COHEN: 8 . Do y o u b e l i e v e it is y o u r e m p l o y e r ' s b u s i n e s s 9 o k n o w w h e t h e r o n e of its e m p l o y e e s is t e s t i f y i n g in 1 0 m a t t e r w h e r e it m a y d i r e c t l y e f f e c t t h e i r i n t e r e s t ? 11 MR. GUSKY: Objection. 12 THE W I T N E S S : I o b v i o u s l y do -- 13 M R . G U S K Y : -- the q u e s t i o n is 14 a r g u m e n t a t i v e ^ Mr. Cohen. 1 5 THE WITNESS: I obviously do/ that's 1 6 why I called the Legal Representative/ when I 17 was f i r s t a s k e d to d e p o s e in a s i m i l a r case. 18 Y MR. COHEN: 19 . You're talking about the 1980 deposition? 20 . That's right. 21 . I'm t a l k i n g about this s e r i e s of d e p o s i t i o n s 22 n 1 9 8 2 . 23 Since at that time/ our Legal r e p r e s e n t a t i v e 24 a i d -- w h e n my c o m p a n y r e p r e s e n t e d K e a s b e y and Matt i son, 25 nd K e a s b e y a n d M a t t i s o n d o e s n o t e x i s t / t h e y had no Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000910 1 Leon Horowitz - C r o s s 27 2 o b j e c t i o n to my deposing. And, therefore, since this 3 w a s s o r t of a c o n t i n u a n c e of t h a t , I d i d n ' t t h i n k it 4 was n e c e s s a r y to ask them again. 5 Q. Now, I assume that you spoke with Mr. Gallo 6 p r i o r to b e i n g d e p o s e d y e s t e r d a y ; is t h a t c o r r e c t ? 7 A. By teleph o n e , yes. 8 Q. Okay. 9 And, besides speaking with Mr. Gallo, 10 can y o u t e l l me w h o m else you s p o k e w i t h r e g a r d i n g the 11 t e s t i m o n y t h a t y o u w o u l d g i v e in t h e d e p o s i t i o n t o d a y ? 12 A. Mr. Dan Bruch. 13 3. Mr. Bruch represents Certainteed Corporation? 14 A. So he tells me. 1 5 Q. And, can you tell me when you spoke with Mr. 16 B r u c h , was Mr. B r u c h in thec o m p a n y of Mr.G a l l o ? 17 A. I spoke with Mr. Bruch mostlywithout the 18 c o m p a n y of Mr. G a l l o , but we w e r e h a v i n g d i n n e r in - 19 i n a r e s t a u r a n t , and Mr. Bruch came down for a final 20 d r i n k a n d d e s s e r t o r s o m e t h i n g l i k e t h a t . 21 Q . 22 Okay. Now, am I correct that you would have 23 a r r i v e d in P h i l a d e l p h i a s o m e t i m e a r o u n d - - on t h e 3 1 s t 24 of J a n u a r y of t h i s y e a r ? 25 A . Sunday . ----------------- : _ ~~ ' Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000911 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 28 2 Q. Sunday would have been the 31st? 3 A. Right. 4 q. And/ let me ask, prior to coming to P h i l a d e l p h i a , 5 on how many occasions did you speak with Mr. Gallo 6 with regard to your d e p o s ition/ and the test i m o n y 7 that you would give? 8 A. A few telephone conversations. Idon't recall 9 how many. 10 Q . 11 Okay. And/ did you speakwith Mr.Bruch on 12 the t e l e p h o n e prior to coming to P h i l a d e l p h i a ? 13 A. Once/ I believe. 14 Q . 1 5 Okay. No w / can you t e l l me at t h e t i m e you 16 s p o k e w i t h Mr. B r u c h was M r . G a l l o on an y e x t e n s i o n , or 17 wa s it a c o n f e r e n c e c all of a n y k i n d ? 18 A. No / it w a s no c o n f e r e n c e c a l l . 19 Q. Okay. 20 And/ conversely-/ when you spoke with 21 M r . G a l l o / w a s M r . B r u c h o n t h e l i n e ? 22 A. Neither. 23 Q . Okay . 24 Can you tell me what the s u b s t a n c e of 25 th e c o n v e r s a t i o n b e t w e e n y o u a n d Mr. B r u c h was d u r i n g ----- -- -----------------------------K- :-n--i-p--e-s---C;--o--h--e-n-----A--s-s--o-c--i-a-:tes Castleman.CERT000912 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 29 2 the telephone call that you had? 3 A. Mr. Bruch i n d i c a t e d that he beca m e aw a r e of the 4 fact that I was go i n g to d e p o s e a g ain, and he sai d he 5 t h o u g h t he would like to see me before. 6 Q. Okay. 7 A n d / th a t r e s u l t e d in his c o m i n g to 8 P h i l a d e l p h i a t he e v e n i n g b e f o r e the d e p o s i t i o n ; is 9 that correct? 1 0 A. I do n ' t kno w w h e t h e r he came to or what/ but he 11 w a s t h e r e . 12 Q. Well/ let me ask/ -- let me ask you, wh e r e - 13 w h e r e d i d y o u m e e t w i t h Mr. B r u c h p r i o r to the 14 d e p o s i t i o n b e g i n n i n g y e s t e r d a y ? 1 5 A. In B o o k b i n d e r s at d e s s e r t . 16 Q . Okay. 17 Now, at the time that you met with Mr. 18 B r u c h / wa s Mr. G a l l o p r e s e n t ? 19 A., At that t ime - 20 Q. Was there - 21 A. 22 Q . 23 - - I was having d i n n e r with Mr. Gallo/ right. 0kay . Was there anyone else from Mr. Gallo's 24 o f f i c e p r e s e n t at B o o k b i n d e r s ? 25 A. No/ there was no one else. Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CEKIUUU913 1 Leon Horowitz - Cross 30 2 Now, can you tell me what you disc u s s e d with 3 e s s r s B r u c h a n d G a l l o at B o o k b i n d e r s , p r i o r to b e i n g 4 epose yesterday? 5 MR. GALLO: Objection to the 6 form. ' 7 THE WITNESS: Just -- just general 8 i n f o r m a t i o n , what to ex pe ct at a d e p o s i t i o n 9 such as this. 10 Y MR. C O H E N : 11 ' Did you r e v i e w with them your d e p o s i t i o n of 12 un e 30th, 1980? 13 No, we did not. 1 4 H a d y o u p r e v i o u s l y r e v i e w e d that d e p o s i t i o n of 1 5 rs, prior to coming to P h i l a d e l p h i a ? 1 6 Withthose people? 17 No, on your own. 18 O h , y e s , I r e a d it on t h e p l a n e c o m i n g in. 19 Now, did you have o c c a s i o n , prior to r e v i e w i n g 20 r d e p o s i t i o n , to look at any of the d o c u m e n t s and 21 ords that you t u rned over to Counsel s u b s e q u e n t to 22 r June 30th d e p o s i t i o n , as referred -- as reflected 23 In E x h i b i t 2 9 , I b e l i e v e it is. 24 l . Mr. G a l l o sent me c o p i e s of the m a t e r i a l that he 25 ja s g o i n g t o u s e at t h i s d e p o s i t i o n , a n d a s k e d me to Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000914 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 31 2 Look in my f i l e for the o r i g i n a l c o p i e s , so that I 3 c o u l d r e a d f r o m the o r i g i n a l c o p i e s . A nd t h a t is 4 all I brought. 5 Q. Okay. 6 Bu t , my -- my q u e s t i o n is not 7 w h a t y o u b r o u g h t w ith you, but in g a t h e r i n g and p r e p a r 8 ing yourself for this deposition, did you have occasion 9 to r e v i e w any of the d o c u m e n t s and records that you 10 s u b s e q u e n t l y gave to Ms. Gibson with -- 11 in E x h i b i t 2 8 ? as r e f l e c t e d 12 A. No, I don't remember exactly which ones I sent 13 :o h e r . I b e l i e v e E x h i b i t 2 9 w a s o n e of t h e m , b u t 14 hat's all I remember. 1 5 I. 1 6 Okay. Do you recall looking at E x h i b i t 17 !2 9 , p r i o r t o c o m i n g d o w n f o r t h i s d e p o s i t i o n 2 18 i. No, no. 1 9 i. Now, I believe yesterday, when we were discuss- 20 ng the s t a t e of y o u r a w a r e n e s s of a s b e s t o s d i s e a s e , 21 o u s u g g e s t e d t h a t y o u w e r e n o t a w a r e of a r t i c l e s t h a t 22 lay h a v e g o n e b a c k to t h e 1 9 3 0 ' s c o n c e r n i n g c a r c i n o m a 23 nd a s b e s t o s u n t i l s o m e t i m e s h o r t l y a f t e r y o u r 24 r r i v a l at K e a s b e y - M a t t i s o n ; i s tha t -- 25 .. T h a t is rig h t . Knipes-Cohen Associates castieman:CERT0009i5 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 32 2 Q. Okay. 3 Now/ can you tell me whether you were 4 a w a r e of any work that was be i n g done at the S a r a n a c 5 L a b o r a t o r i e s c o n c e r n i n g the r e l a t i o n s h i p of c a n c e r and 6 a s b e s t o s e x p o s u r e , pr i o r to c o m i n g to K e a s b e y and 7 Hatti son? 8 MR. CREEDON: Objection. 9 MR. BRUCH: Objection. 1 0 THE WITNESS: 11 p r e v i o u s answer, no. 12 BY M R . C O H E N : O b v i o u s . f r o m my 13 9. A n d , s u b s e q u e n t to your a r r i v a l at K e a s b e y - 14 M a t t i s o n , c a n y o u t e l l me w h e n it w a s f o r t h e f i r s t 15 time that y ou b e c a m e aware of work or r e s e a r c h h a v i n g 16 been d o n e at the S a r a n a c L a b o r a t o r i e s with r e g a r d to 17 c a n c e r a n d a s b e s t o s e x p o s u r e ? 18 MR. CREEDON: Objection. 1 9 T H E W I T N E S S : On th a t s u b j e c t / in 20 p a r t i c u l a r / t his is the first time I've h e a r d tha1 21 it was done. 22 3Y M R . C O H E N : 23 5. So, for the first time/ when you came with 24 ( e a s b e y a n d M a t t i s o n / y o u w e r e a w a r e of I HF/ a n d you 25 /ere a w a r e o f t h e S a r a n a c L a b o r a t o r i e s as b e i n g s e p a r a t e Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000916 1 Leon Horowitz - Cross 33 2 g r o u p s that had r e s e a r c h e d the issue of c a n c e r and a s 3 bestos? 4 MR. GALLO: Objection, that's not 5 uhathesaid. 6 MR. CREEDON: Objection. 7 THE WITNESS: I just said that I 8 d i d n ' t -- I was never aware of S a r a n a c having 9 done work on asbestos and cancer. I was very 1 0 mu c h aw a r e of S a r a n a c ' s work as a s e p a r a t e 11 entity from Industrial Hygiene Foundation. 12 I knew of both o r g a n i z a t i o n s , but I was not 13 aw a r e of any work that was done r e l a t i n g 14 a s b e s t o s to c ancer. 1 5 BY M R . C O H E N: 16 Q. Have you ever had - 17 A. -- of those two organizations or any o r g a n i z a 18 t i o n s . 19 Q. Did there ever come a time that you requested any 20 s t u d i e s o r i n f o r m a t i o n t h a t w o u l d h a v e b e e n g e n e r a t e d 21 by S a r a n a c L a b o r a t o r i e s c o n c e r n i n g a s b e s t o s d i s e a s e , 22 o n c e y o u g o t to K e a s b e y - M a 1 1 i s o n ? 23 A. No -- 24 MR. CREEDON: Objection. 25 THE W I T N E S S : -- no, there was no Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000917 1 Leon Horowitz - C r o s s 34 2 r e a s o n for me to go that way. 3 Y MR. COHEN: 4 . O k a y / why was there no r e a s o n for you to 5 btain medical or scientific information - - 6 . I didn't know -- 7 . Let me -- if I c a n / Mr. H o r o w i t z , let me 8 inish the question. 9 W hy di d y ou not fe e l it was 10 e c e s s a r y to o b t a i n a n y d o c u m e n t s or r e c o r d s 11 o n c e r n i n g s c i e n t i f i c o r m e d i c a l w o r k t h a t h a d b e e n 12 o n e in t h i s a r e a ? 13 . I didn't say that. 14 . Okay/ I'm sorry. 15 . I said/ I did not approach Saranac for any 16 o r k t h a t t h e y had d o n e r e l a t i n g a s b e s t o s to c a n c e r / 17 e c a u s e I had no k n o w l e d g e t h a t t h e y did any w o r k 18 ith c a n c e r . I -- my a p p r o a c h was to c o n t a c t the 19 nsurance company and have them do a literature 20 e a r c h f o r m e . A n d I w a s s a t i s f i e d w i t h t h e l i m i t e d 21 e a r c h t h e y d i d - - l i m i t e d r e s u l t s t h e y g a v e m e . 22 !. 23 . 24 . Okay. It was a n e w c o n c e p t to me. Okay. 25 Did you ever check to d e t e r m i n e whether -- -- ---------------------K--n--ip--e-s---C-o--h-e-n---A--s-s-o-c-i-a-t--e-s--- Castleman.CtKI0UU9T8 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 35 2 S a r a n a c had d o n e any work with regard to the r e l a t i o n 3 ship of a s b e s t o s i s and as b e s t o s exposure? 4 MR . GALLO : Objection. 5 MR . CREEDON: Obj ecti on. 6 THE WITNESS: I d i d n 't check, but I 7 -- I think I knew that they had done some, yes. 8 BY MR. COHEN: 9 Q. 10 Okay. So, you were a w are, at Least that 11 t h a t a r e a h a d b e e n l o o k e d i n t o by S a r a n a c ? 12 My v i e w of S a r a n a c was th a t it was a i s o l a t e d 13 r e s e a r c h a r e a , o r i g i n a l l y s t a r t e d by a m e d i c a l p e r s o n 14 who was i n t e r e s t e d in lung p r o b l e m s in g e n e r a l . I 15 d i dn't know of them doing any specific work with 16 a s b e s t o s at a l l . 1 7 <j. Wer e you aw a r e of w h e t h e r any a s b e s t o s m i n e r s 18 or m a n u f a c t u r e r s had f u n d e d a n y r e s e a r c h or s t u d i e s 19 a t S a r a n a c ? 20 21 MR. CREEDON: THE WITNESS: Objection. I was not aware of that 22 at all. 23 BY M R . C O H E N : 24 Q. Now, at the time that you came to K e a s b e y - 2 5 M a ttison, did you believe that, as we discussed _ _ Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000919 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 36 2 yesterday, distance was a factor which'might mitigate 3 disease, the disease process, with regard to asbestos 4 exposure? 5 MR. GUSKY: Distance from what? 6 MR. COHEN: Distance b e tween an 7 i n d i v i d u a l and the -- and the l o c a t i o n of 8 asbestos. 9 TH E W I T N E S S : In the g e n e r a l f i e l d of 1 0 i n d u s t r i a l h y g i e n e , d i s t a n c e is a m e a n s of 11 c o n t r o l . For i n s t a n c e , a p e r s o n in F l o r i d a 12 could not or would not -- claim -- could not 13 c l a i m t h a t he was- e x p o s e d to a s b e s t o s in 14 Canada. That's distance, too. 15 BY MR. COHEN: 16 Q. Well, let's -- would that include an individual 17 in F l o r i d a who was e x p o s e d to a s b e s t o s that was sent 18 f r o m C a n a d a ? If y o u ' r e t a l k i n g a b o u t - 19 A. 20 Q. No, I'm talking about the - -- physical proximity, okay. 21 A. -- physical' exposure to a n - - t o a dust 22 e x p o s u r e . 23 Q . Okay. 24 A. So, d i s t a n c e is a m e a n s of c o n t r o l . 25 Q. Now, were you a w a r e w h e n you b e g a n w o r k at Knipes-:Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000920 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 37 2 K e a s b e y - M a t t i s o n of w h e t h e r t h e r e were s t u d i e s b e i n g 3 done wit h r e g a r d to n e i g h b o r h o o d s s u r r o u n d i n g a s b e s t o s 4 m a n u f a c t u r i n g f a c i l i t i e s / an d the o c c u r r e n c e of 5 a s b e s t o s r e l a t e d d i s e a s e in t h o s e n e i g h b o r h o o d s ? 6 MS. GIBSON: Objection. 7 MR. BRUCH: I Object to this question. 8 It's beyond Direct. And I don't think the 9 w i t n e s s has i n d i c a t e d any f a c t u a l k n o w l e d g e of 1 0 this or e x p e r t i s e in this. 11 MR. COHEN: Well/ w h e t h e r he has 12 f a c t u a l k n o w l e d g e is w h a t I'm t r y i n g to 13 determine. 14 MR. BRUCH: Well/ that's already been 1 5 d o n e / b r o u g h t on in d i r e c t . 1 6 MR. G USKY: O b j e c t i o n / a Iso, to 17 re l e v a n c y . 18 MR. G ALLO: And a lack of f o u n d a t i o n . 1 9 MR. C R E E D O N : I join in all those 20 objections. 21 MR. COHEN: Okay. 22 THE W I T N E S S : I a n s w e r / in s p i t e of 23 all the objections/ right? 24 MR. COHEN: Yes, you do. 25 THE W I T N E S S : S i n c e at that t i m e , the Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000921 1 Leon Horowi tz Cross 38 2 c o n c e r n a b o u t c a n c e r was not as g r e a t as it is 3 t o d a y ^ a n d as it p r o g r e s s e d in the y e a r s s i n c e 4 that time/ d efinitely no concern -- there was 5 no c o n c e r n with the a t m o s p h e r e o u t s i d e of the 6 p l a n t / e x c e p t for air p o l l u t i o n type of 7 thing. 8 3Y MR. COHEN: 9 a. W h o s e c o n c e r n are we t a l k i n g a b o u t / K e a s b e y - 10 M a t t i s o n was not as c o n c e r n e d -- 11 A. No -- 12 Q. -- then as today? 13 A. 1 4 1 5 16 I'm talking about Industrial - MR. GALLO: Objection. THE WITNESS: I'm talking about I n d u s t r i a l H y g i e n e p e o p l e / in g e n e r a l . 17 BY MR. C O H E N : 18 Q. 19 A. Are you -- T h o s e of us in the field, the p r o f e s s i o n a l s 20 in the f i e l d . 21 MR. BRUCH: I have a further 22 o b j e c t i o n / s i n c e this is a d e p o s i t i o n for 23 t r i a l / I w o u l d like for it to be c o n d u c t e d 24 as if it was t r i a l / not a d i a l o g u e / q u e s t i o n s 25 and answers/ questions and answers. I would like Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000922 ______ _______-- --------------------- -------------- --------------------------------------------------- 1 Leon Horowitz - Cross 39 2 the witness to wait for the Counsel has 3 c o m p l e t e d his q u e s t i o n and we h a v e it in a 4 formal manner. 5 THE WITNESS: Yeah/ I'm sorry about 6 that. 7 BY HR. COHEN: 8 Q. Is it y o u r t e s t i m o n y that you can s p e a k for the 9 I n d u s t r i a l H y g i e n e c o m m u n i t y / and st a t e that in 1960, 10 the o c c u r r e n c e , or the r e l a t i o n s h i p between c a r c inoma 11 a n d a s b e s t o s w a s n o t as m u c h a c o n c e r n t h e n a s it is 12 t o d a y ; is that your t e s t i m o n y ? 13 MR. GALLO: Objection, beyond the 14 scope. 1 5 MR. BRUCH: Same objection. 16 THE WITNESS: I cannot speak for 17 e v e r y s i n g l e p e r s o n who p r o f e s s e d to be an 18 industrial hygienist. But, having worked with 1 9 the D i v i s i o n of I n d u s t r i a l H y g i e n e for nine 20 yea r s and four years s u b s e q u e n t to that, I feel 21 that I was expert enough to know the general 22 a t t i t u d e in that with r e s p e c t to the q u e s t i o n 23 you a s k e d about e x p o s u r e to the public outside. 24 3Y M R . C O H E N : 25 i. Well, you were not even aw a r e of a r e l a t i o n s h i p ------------- ---------------K- -n--ip--e-s--C--o--h-e-n---A--s-s-o-c-i-a-t-e-s----castieman.ctKiuuuy23 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 40 2 between cancer and asbestos 3 A. Right. 4 Q. -- unti l 1 960? 5 A. No, I was not aware, and I can assure you -- 6 I 'm not sure that not e v e r y b o d y was aw a r e -- u n a w a r e . 7 DUt m o s t p e o p l e w e r e not a w a r e . -- 8 MR . G A L L O : M o v e to s t r i k e . It's 9 unresponsive. 1 O THE WITNESS: -- in my field. 11 BY M R . C O H E N : 12 Q . Was there medical literature though know -- now, 13 a s y o u sit h e r e t o d a y , ar e y o u a w a r e t h a t t h e r e was 14 a body of medical and scientific literature going back 15 to the 1930's, which suggested that there was a re l a 16 t i o n s h i p or m i g h t be a r e l a t i o n s h i p b e t w e e n a s b e s t o s 17 e x p o s u r e and c a r c i n o m a ? 18 MR. GALLO: Objection. 19 MR. MENDELOW: Objection. 20 MR. BRUCH: O b j e c t i o n to the form. 21 MR. GALLO: Off the tape, please. 22 MR. FORTE: We're going off the record. 23 T h e t i m e is 1 0 : 2 6 . 24 (Whereupon the following discussions 25 were off the videotape record.) --------------- --------------K--n--ip--e-s---C-o-h-en~ A ssociates Castleman.CERT000924 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 41 2 MR. GALLO: Despite numerous objections ,3 by P l a i n t i f f s ' counsel y e s t e r d a y to q u e s t i o n s 4 to this witness calling for expert o p i n i o n and 5 o p i n i o n s as of t o d a y / you have now p r o c e e d e d 6 to e x a m i n e him as an e x p e r t . T h a t is c l e a r l y 7 b e y o n d the scope of the e x a m i n a t i o n on the d irect 8 and the s t a t u s in w h i c h he was c a l l e d as a 9 w i t n e s s , n a m e l y as a fact w i t n e s s . He t e s t i f i e d 10 to his k n o w l e d g e and p r o c e d u r e s dur i n g his years 11 at K e a s b e y - M a t t i s o n . 12 M R . C O H E N : W e i 1/ l e t m e j u s t s t a t e 13 that Mr. H o r o w i t z was h i r e d and p e r f o r m e d in 14 the capacity -- 1 5 MR. GALLO: I haven't finished 16 yet. 17 MR. COHEN: Oh, I'm sorry. We took 18 this Long h i a t u s / so I a s s u m e d you were. 19 MR. GALLO: No/ you i n t e r r u p t e d me. 20 MR. COHEN: T a k e a s h o r t e r p e r i o d of 21 time in b r e a t h i n g . 22 MR. G A L L O : It ' s b e y o n d the s c o p e of 23 the direct. It's also irrelevant. And I'm not g o i n g to p e r m i t you to put your case on as far as s t a t e of the art t h r o u g h this w i t n e s s by Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000925 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 42 2 in t r o d u c i n g on cross examination, the 3 e x i s t e n c e of a r t i c l e s , the s t u d i e s done by 4 various research institutes and the like. 5 T h a t ' s part of your C a s e - i n - C h i e f , and it's 6 i m p r o p e r to p u t it on at t h i s t i m e . 7 MR. COHEN: Well, when you say 8 y o u ' r e not go i n g to p ermit me, are you t e l l i n g 9 me that as the a t t o r n e y that b r o u g h t the w i t n e s s 1 0 here, you're going to have him not answer any 11 questions? 12 MR. GALLO: I can't instruct him not 1 3 to answer, obviously. 14 MR. COHEN: Well, you've already said 1 5 that you're not going to permit something. I m 16 curious - 17 M R . G A L L O : At the t i m e of t r i a l , 18 I will move that this e n t i r e line of q u e s t i o n i n g 19 a n d y o u r c r o s s e x a m i n a t i o n be s t r i c k e n . 20 MR. COH E N : Okay, well, let me just 21 s t a t e t h a t t h i s w i t n e s s w a s t h e i n d u s t r i a l 22 hygienist for two -- 23 M R . G A L L O : Y o u d o n ' t h a v e to g i v e me 24 an e x p l a n a t i o n of how y o u ' r e g o i n g to p r o c e e d . 25 Proceed. -- -- ----- -- --------K--n-i-p-e--s--C--o--he-n---A--s-s-o-c-i-a-t-e-s---Castleman.ctKiuuuy^b 1 Leon H o r o w i t z - Cross ^3 2 MR. COHEN: No, I'm just r e s p o n d i n g 3 to the o b j e c t i o n s / so that my p o s i t i o n is on 4 the record. This witness was hired and acted 5 in a c e r t a i n c a p a c i t y for a p e r i o d w h e n he was 6 working for K e a s b e y -- Mattison and for Certainteed. 7 I am e n t i t l e d to i n q u i r e as to the s t a t e of his 8 k n o w l e d g e in p e r f o r m i n g the f u n c t i o n w h i c h had a 9 d i r e c t b e a r i n g on the h ealth and w e l f a r e of > 10 t h e P l a i n t i f f s t h a t I r e p r e s e n t t h a t w o r k e d at 11 t h a t f a c t o r y / or t h o s e f a c t o r i e s or 12 asbestos-producing plants. 13 Now/ to t h e e x t e n t t h a t K e a s b e y - 1 4 1 5 i 7 16 M a t t i s o n had k n o w l e d g e / and to the e x t e n t that that level of k n o w l e d g e may have been less than or g r e a t e r t h a n t h e k n o w l e d g e of o t h e r s is 17 ) 18 19 the e n t i r e s u b j e c t of this l i t i g a t i o n . So, I'm going to p r o c e e d / and you can make w h a t e v e r m o t i o n s y o u d e e m a p p r o p r i a t e l a t e r , at the ti m e 20 of trial. ' 21 MR. GALLO: You've already inquired 22 as to his k n o w l e d g e , a n d n o w - - 23 15 ( 24 MR. COH E N : I h a v e n ' t even b e g u n to i n q u i r e as to his k n o w l e d g e . M R . G A L L O : Y o u a l r e a d y h a v e , a n d y o u ' r <( 25 > ----- ------ -- --------- Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000927 1 Leon Horowitz - Cross 44 2 n o w a s k i n g w h e t h e r or not he was a w a r e of 3 c e r t a i n a r t i c l e s h a v i n g been w r i t t e n at a c e r t a i n 4 poi n t in time, when he has a l r e a d y told you what 5 his level of a w a r e n e s s was. I , t h e r e f o r e / 6 object. It's duplicative/ and I think you're 7 w a s t i n g the ti m e of the -- all the a t t o r n e y s 8 here. 9 MR. COHEN: That's okay, they're 1 0 b i l l i n g it out and b e i n g c o m p e n s a t e d for it. 11 So/ t h e r e is no p r o b l e m . 12 MR. CREEDON: W h e t h e r or not we're 13 b e i n g c o m p e n s a t e d for it or not - 14 MR. COHEN: Excuse me, well, I 1 5 i n t e n d to conduct this d e p o s i t i o n the way I 16 d e e m f i t > a n d if p e o p l e d o n ' t l i k e it, t h e y ' r e 17 p e r f e c t l y free to leave. My q u e s t i o n s y e s t e r d a y 18 d e a l t s p e c i f i c a l l y w i t h the k n o w l e d g e of c a r c i n o m . 1 9 prior to 1960/ I'm now going into another 20 s e r i e s or body of k n o w l e d g e that was e x i s t i n g 21 pr i o r to 1960/ to d e t e r m i n e w h e t h e r this witness 22 who act e d as a Chief I n d u s t r i a l H y giene Officer 23 for the plant that P l a i n t i f f s worked at/ did or 24 did not k now c e r t a i n t h i n g s . And/ I'm go i n g to 25 p r o c e e d in a n u m b e r of o t h e r a r e a s , o t h e r than Knipes-Cohen Associates castleman.CERT000928 1 Leon Horowitz Cr os s 45 2 c a r c i n o m a or e x p o s u r e of n e i g h b o r h o o d s a r o u n d 3 plants. 4 MR. GALLO: The other reason for 5 my o b j e c t i o n is that I b e l i e v e y o u r last 6 q u e s t i o n was s tated in terms of, as you sit 7 h e r e t o d a y , what is y o u r c u r r e n t k n o w l e d g e . 8 Are you not aware that c e r t a i n a r t i c l e s or 9 s t u d i e s or w h a t e v e r e x i s t e d at p o i n t X in 1 0 t i m e , a n d c l e a r l y , his k n o w l e d g e t o d a y is not 11 r e l e v a n t to the l i t i g a t i o n which stems from 12 his w ork for K&M and C e r t a i n t e e d f rom 1 9 6 0 to 13 1968. T h e r e are many t h i n g s he may have 14 learned between 1968 and 1981, and that 1 5 c l e a r l y is not r e l e v a n t . And to the e x t e n t 16 that you ask questions like that, I think 17 y o u ' r e r e a l l y w a s t i n g all of our time. 18 MR. COHEN: Well, I think the Jury 19 has a right to a s s e s s the k n o w l e d g e of the 20 w i t n e s s at this time for w h a t e v e r a p p ropri ate 21 p u r p o s e they may deem fit. So, I'm going to 22 continue. 23 MR. BRUCH: Only with the instruction 24 that his k n o w l e d g e as to that time p e r i o d , 25 '60 to '68. You're not going to ask him ------ - Knipe"s-C;ohen Associa7tes Castleman.CERT000929 1 Leon H o r o w i t z - Cross 46 2 k n o w l e d g e of what he knows t o d a y , are you? 3 MR. COHEN: That was my Last question. 4 I still think the Jury has a right to assess 5 s i n c e t h e r e has b e e n a l a r g e r a c c u m u l a t i o n of 6 k n o w l e d g e between I960 and today, w h ether Mr. 7 H o r o w i t z is or is not a w a r e of c e r t a i n t h i n g s 8 in 1982. I think that has a b e a r i n g on their 9 vie w of his t e s t i m o n y , and the st a t e of k n o w l e d g e 1 0 that he has as a w i t n e s s . 11 M R . B R U C H : B u t , j u s t k e e p in m i n d , he 12 was p r e s e n t e d as a fact w i t n e s s . 1 3 MR. COHEN: I understand that, but a 1 4 f a c t w i t n e s s can s t i l l be l o o k e d at in t e r m s of 1 5 his v e r a c i t y and in terms of his c o m p e t e n c e 1 6 and what weight the Jury may see fit to give 1 7 this w i t n e s s ' t e s t i m o n y as a fact w i t n e s s . 18 MR. BRUCH: I think y o u ' r e wrong on 1 9 t h i s , l e t ' s be h o n e s t . 20 MR. C O H E N : It w o u l d n ' t be the first 21 time 22 MS. G I B S O N : It will be a r g u e d at 23 trial. 24 MR. ME NDE L0W : That's right. I'll 25 join in Mr. G a l l o ' s o b j e c t i o n s . Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000930 1 Leon Horowitz - Cross 47 2 MR. GALLO: One other ground for 3 4 5 6 7 ; 8 o b j e c t i o n / and that is that if y o u do q u e s t i o n him r e g a r d i n g k n o w l e d g e that a c c r u e d to Mr. H o r o w i t z a f t e r he went wi t h A m e r i c a n M u t u a l / that is/ after 1968/ I'm not sure whether y o u ' r e t a k i n g d i s c o v e r y at t h i s p o i n t for o t h e r l i t i g a t i o n in w h i c h you may be i n v o l v e d , or on 9 b e h a l f of o t h e r P l a i n t i f f ' s a t t o r n e y s in ) 1 0 11 12 %*t> 1 13 L o u i s i a n a or else w h e r e , and I wo u l d c a u t i o n you in d o i n g that, s i n c e you are -- MR. COHEN: Well, don't caution me. I'm taking depositions for the purpose that they 1 4 were no t i c e d and no other. 1 5 MR. GALLO: I think that the witness 16 s h o u l d be made aware that you may be a t t e m p t i n g 17 to d e v e l o p k n o w l e d g e as to A m e r i c a n M u tual 18 through him. 19 MR. COHEN: Well, you want to tell the 20 > 21 22 23 24 w i t n e s s that, t h a t ' s fine. That happens not to be what I'm doing. The witness -- MR. G A L L O : It had t h a t e f f e c t . MR. COHEN: Well, I don't frankly care w h e t h e r it d o e s or d o e s not h a v e t h a t e f f e c t . 25 I am taking this d e p o s i t i o n to deter m i n e the -.. > Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000931 1 Leon Horowitz - C r o s s 48 2 s t a t e of k n o w l e d g e of this w i t n e s s , K e a s b e y 3 and M a t t i s o n C o r p o r a t i o n and C e r t a i n t e e d , as 4 it r e l a t e s to the c l i e n t s that I r e p r e s e n t . 5 I am not taking discovery for any other Plaintiff 6 counsel, and to the extent that you're sugg e s t i n g 7 o t h e r w i s e , if yo u h a v e a n y t h i n g to r e p r e s e n t 8 t ha t I am then I wo u l d a p p r e c i a t e you m a k i n g that 9 k n o w n to the Court at this p oint. 1 0 MR. GALLO: Well -- 11 MR. CO H E N : If not, let me c o n t i n u e 12 the deposition. 13 MR. G A L L O : Atl I'm s u g g e s t i n g is 1 4 t h a t t h i s is a K e a s b e y and M a t t i s o n , C e r t a i n t e e d 1 5 involvement that you're concerned about that 16 you limit your cross e x a m i n a t i o n to m a t t e r s 17 touching on his contact withthose companies. 18 MR. COHEN: That's exactly what I've 19 been doing. 20 MR. GALLO: I see, very well. 21 MR. M ASON: I would like to add an 22 o b j e c t i o n to the form of your last q u e s t i o n , 23 and any other questions which include the 24 p h r a s e , body of k n o w l e d g e . 25 MR. COHEN: Would you like me -- just _ Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000932 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 49 2 so we ' r e clear, Mr. Mason, would you like me 3 to s p e c i f i c a l l y refer to the d o c u m e n t s in my 4 t e s t i m o n y or my q u e s t i o n i n g of the w i t n e s s , I 5 will be ve r y happy to do that. 6 MR. MASON: No, I just don't want you 7 to use the p hrase, body of k n owledge. 8 MR. COHEN: I'Ll try and rephrase 9 t h a t , so it c o m p o r t s w i t h s o m e t h i n g that 1 0 might be more a c c e p table. 11 MR. BRUCH: So I don't in t e r r u p t 12 you once we're on the video, may I have a 13 c o n t i n u i n g o b j e c t i o n , as to any k n o w l e d g e 1 4 post 1968 that this man has? 1 5 MR. COHEN: Sure. 16 MR. GALLO: Obviously, I would want 17 the same continuing objection. 18 MR. COHEN: We agreed y e s t e r d a y that 1 9 the o b j e c t i o n of one i n u r e s to the b e n e f i t 20 of the i m m e d i a t e world. 21 MR. BRUCH: I took e x c e p t i o n to 22 that a g r e e m e n t . I want to make my own. 23 MR. COHEN: That's right. 24 MR. PAUL: B e f o r e we go back on 25 the videotape, I would also caution the witness -------- : ' Knipes-Cohe_n_ Associates Castleman.CERT000933 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 50 2 w h i c h Mr . G a l l o j u s t s o r t of e n g a g e d in, it 3 was e n g a g e d in it at g r e a t l e n g t h y e s t e r d a y 4 and by Mr. Cohen y e s t e r d a y , on the q u e s t i o n 5 of A m e r i c a n M u t u a l . If I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r 6 o b j e c t i o n , g e n t l e m e n , to the use of this 7 gentleman's testimony about post 1968 8 k n o w l e d g e , p o s s i b l y b eing, or not be i n g r e l e 9 v a n t to the p a r t i c u l a r l a w s u i t s in w h i c h 10 Mr. C o h e n r e p r e s e n t s a P l a i n t i f f and in w h i c h 11 we represent a Plaintiff, I suggest that 1 2 t h a t m a t t e r is best a r g u e d not at this 13 p o i n t , but at the time of t r i a l , a n d only 14 at the time of trial. 1 5 M R . B R U C H : It is my u n d e r s t a n d i n g 1 6 t h a t y o u ' r e o n l y in o n e c a s e ; is t h a t r i g h t ? 17 MR. PAUL: That's right. I'm only 18 referring -- and again, I'm only referring - 1 9 MR. COHEN: It's irrelevant whether 20 he's here for one or fifty. He's got the 21 samerights. 22 MR. PAUL: Let's go back on the 23 v i d e o . I j u s t w a n t t o n o t e it b e f o r e we go b a c k 24 on the video, our o b j e c t i o n s to D e f e n s e o b j e c 2 5 tions to this line of t e s t i m o n y w i t h o u t indicati Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000934 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 51 2 w h e t h e r , in fact, we intend to use this line 3 of t e s t i m o n y or any of Mr. C o h e n ' s t e s t i m o n y 4 in our case. 5 MR. GALLO: Now that we've gotten 6 all that out of the way. 7 MR, FORTE: We're now back on the 8 record. 9 BY MR. COHEN: T h e time is 10 : 3 6 . 10 q . Mr. H o r o w i t z , at the time you came to K e a s b e y 11 a n d M a t t i s o n i n 1 9 6 0 , w e r e y o u a w a r e of an a l l e g e d 12 association between asbestos and the 13 a s b e s t o s r e l a t e d d i s e a s e s to p e r s o n s 14 o c c u p a t i o n a l l y e x p o s e d to a s b e s t o s ? 1 5 A . No . d e v e l o p m e n t of who were non 1 6 MR. GALLO: Objection. 17 MR. C R E E D O N : I join in the o b j e c t i o n . 18 BY M R . C O H E N : 19 q . Did you ever, s u b s e q u e n t to your em pl oy with 20 K e a s b e y - M a t t i s o n , or C e r t a i n t e e d C o r p o r a t i o n , ever make 21 i n q u i r y or d i r e c t a n y o n e e l s e to m a k e i n q u i r y to 22 d e t e r m i n e w h e t h e r t h er e were s c i e n t i f i c or m e d i c a l 23 w r i t i n g s c o n c e r n i n g th i s s u b j e c t that we just 24 d i s c us se d? 25 ----- " MR. GALLO: Objection. " Knipes-C_ ohen Ass:ociates Castleman.CERT000935 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 52 2 . MS . GIBSON: Objection. 3 MR. CREE DON: Objection. 4 MR. GALLO: May we have a c o n t i n u i n g 5 objection? 6 MR. COHEN: Sure. 7 MR. BRUCH: I join in that 8 objection. 9 THE WITNESS: As the years p r o g r e s s e d 10 some Literature was coming across the desk 11 concerning that subject. 12 3Y MR. COHEN: 1 3 a. Can you tell me, specifically, what literature 14 was c o m i n g a c r o s s the desk that t o u c h e d upon, or 1 5 c o n c e r n e d the s u b j e c t of the d e v e l o p m e n t of a s b e s t o s 16 r e l a t e d d i s e a s e by pers o n s who were not o c c u p a t i o n a l l y 17 e x p o s e d to a s b e s t o s ? 18 ^. A lot of the work had to do with S e l i k o f f ' s 19 g r o u p . 20 5 . Are you s p e a k i n g of Dr. Irwin S e l i k o f f ? 21 A. Yes,lam. 22 5 . A n d , w h a t is the e a r l i e s t t h a t y o u r e c a l l 23 s e c o m i n g a w a r e as an i n d u s t r i a l h y g i e n i s t for 24 either K e a s b e y or Matt i son or C e r t a i n t e e d C o r p o r a t i o n , 25 that a b o d y of m e d i c a l or s c i e n t i f i c l i t e r a t u r e was -------------------------------- Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000936 T Leon Horowitz Cross 53 2 , b e i n g w r i t t e n on the s u b j e c t ? 3 A. I can't recall any specific dates. 4 Q. Do y o u r e c a l l w h e t h e r y ou w e r e e m p l o y e d by 5 K e a s b e y - M a t t i s o n -- Keasbey and M a t t i s o n / or C e r t a i n t e e d 6 at the t i m e t h i s i n f o r m a t i o n c r o s s e d y o u r d e s k ? 7 A. I c a n ' t e v e n r e c a l l w h e t h e r it was s u b s e q u e n t 8 to my e m p l o y with either company. 9 I'm sorry, let me -- can I ask you, can you 1 0 j u s t r e - s t a t e y o u r a n s w e r , y o u ' r e not c e r t a i n w h e n it 11 a m e a c r o s s y o u r d e s k ? 12 . I ' m not c e r t a i n t h a t t h a t i n f o r m a t i o n , in 13 a r t i c u l a r , for a s b e s t o s r e l a t i n g to p e o p l e o u t s i d e 14 3f the plant who did not work with asbestos/ whether 15 that i n f o r m a t i o n I obtained during the time I worked 1 6 or e i t h e r of the c o m p a n i e s / or after the c o m p a n y . I 17 (tan't be c e r t a i n of the d a t e . 18 Q . Now, to the extent that you were aware that 1 9 e x p o s u r e to a s b e s t o s c o u l d c a u s e the d i s e a s e k n o w n as 20 s b e s t o s i s / as the i n d u s t r i a l h y g i e n i s t for K e a s b e y 21 a n d M a t t i s o n a n d f o r C e r t a i n t e e d C o r p o r a t i o n / w h a t 22 was y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g of th e m e c h a n i s m t h a t c a u s e d 23 the d i s e a s e p r o c e s s ? 24 *. I a s s o c i a t e it w i t h s i m i l a r to a ny p n e u m o c o n i o s i s 25 d i s e a s e / l i k e s i l i c o s i s . T h e r e w a s s o m e k i n d of Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000937 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 54 2 . u n d e f i n e d , at Least for the Layman of what h a p p e n e d 3 in the Lungs of p e o p l e t h a t d e b i L i t a t e d them, 4 a, WeLL, when you say undefined, are you suggesting 5 most Ly Lay p e o p l e were not a w a r e at the t i m e you were 6 e m p L o y e d by both c o r p o r a t i o n s , of the -- what c a u s e d 7 the d i s e a s e p r o c e s s in the Lung? 8 ft. By u n d e f i n e d , I mean as a Lay p e r s o n , the 9 i n f o r m a t i o n we were getting from the medicaL people 1 0 were not clear to us, they were not clear t h e m s e l v e s , 11 as t o w h a t t h e r e a l c a u s e s o r h o w t h e m e c h a n i s m , 12 you a s k e d me a b o u t the m e c h a n i s m -- 13 a. That's correct. 14 ft. -- how the m e c h a n i s m works. And, I stiLL am 15 not clear about that. 1 6 3. In 19 -- 17 ft. 18 a. 19 ft. N o b o d y is c l e a r , as far as I know, Asfarasyouknow? As far as I know. 20 j. As of 1960, can you teLl me whether you had 21 a n y k n o w L e d g e c o n c e r n i n g w h e t h e r t h e m e c h a n i s m c o u l d 22 ae of c h e m i c a L o r i g i n ? In o t h e r w o r d s , i n t e r a c t i o n 23 : h e m i c a L Ly b e t w e e n t h e a s b e s t o s f i b e r a n d b o d y t i s s u e ? 24 ft. T h e d i s c u s s i o n s on t h a t s u b j e c t , and a g a i n , as 25 a n o n - m e d i c a L p e r s o n , t h e c o n t r i b u t i o n --------- -- -- -- --------------K--n-i-p-e-s---C--o-h--en Associates that I wouLd castieman.GtKiuuu938 1 Leon Horowi t z Cr o s s 55 2 ha v e , w o u l d be m o s t l y as a p e r s o n who l i s t e n s to what 3 the medical people say and there was confusion 4 t h e r e . T h e d i s c u s s i o n went back and forth as far as to 5 w h e t h e r it was p h y s i c a l , c h e m i c a l or w h a t , e s p e c i a l l y 6 w i t h s i l i c o s i s . An d , t h i s is a g e n e r a l t h i n g , not 7 just asbestos. 8 q. Well, let me c o n f i n e my q u e s t i o n i n g to you, 9 t h o u g h , of a s b e s t o s . 10 A . R ight . 11 Q . were you a w a r e in 19 6 0 that there was l i t e r a t u r e 12 s u g g e s t i n g t h a t t h e d i s e a s e p r o c e s s m i g h t be c h e m i c a l 13 i n nat u r e ? 14 MR. G ALLO: O b j e c t i o n , he a l r e a d y 1 5 stated he's not a medical man. 16 THE WITNESS: I -- 17 MR. COHEN: Excuse me, I don't 18 -believe this calls f o r a medical opinion. This 19 calls for his knowl e d g e as the industrial 20 hygienist and chief responsible officer for 21 those two corporations. 22 T H E W I T N E S S : In v i e w of t h e - 23 MR. BRUCH: I still think I should 24 object, because it's a medical question. 25 ------------------ -- THE W I T N E S S : First, I would like to Knipes-Cohen Associates: Castleman.CERT000939 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 56 2 correct something. I was not hired/ nor did 3 I f u n c t i o n as Chief I n d u s t r i a l H y g i e n e , what 4 did you call it? 5 MR. COHEN: Officer. 6 TH E W I T N E S S : O f f i c e r , of e i t h e r 7 company. I was hired, and my title was 8 Dust C o n t r o l E n g i n e e r . My e x p e r i e n c e had 9 been in the g e n e r a l field of i n d u s t r i a l 1 0 h y g i e n e , of w h i c h onl y a mi n o r p a r t , as I 11 t e s t i f i e d , had a n y t h i n g to do with a s b e s t o s . 12 Since asbestos was not a primary consideration 13 in my past e x p e r i e n c e , I had no r e a s o n to do 14 d e t a i l e d r e s e a r c h in a p a r t i c u l a r s u b j e c t , 1 5 which was only one of t h e m a n y , many s u b j e c t s 16 and hazards and occupational diseases, and 17 t h e r e f o r e , c o m i n g a l m o s t as -a., n e o p h y t e in 18 a s b e s t o s , al l t h e n e w i n f o r m a t i o n w a s o b t a i n e d 19 s u b s e q u e n t to that, b e c ause now I did have a 20 p a r t i c u l a r i n t e r e s t in that s u b j e c t . 21 B Y M R . C O H E N : 22 q b N o w , to the e x t e n t in 1 960 that you had a 23 p a r t i c u l a r r e a s o n as a d u s t c o n t r o l e n g i n e e r to a c q u a i n t 24 y o u r s e l f w i t h a s b e s t o s -- 25 A . Yes. ----------------- `K"nipes-Cohen-- A ssociate's Castleman.CERT000940 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 57 2 q. -- my q u e s t i o n is w h e t h e r and what s t e p s you 3 to ok/ to e d u c a t e y o u r s e l f to d e t e r m i n e the p r o c e s s / 4 how the p r o c e s s in the body o c c u r r e d that ca u s e d 5 disease? 6 A. I was interested/ but I did not make any 7 a t t e mp t/ not being a medical person/ no. 8 q. can you tell me whose r e sp on si bi li ty when you 9 f i r s t joinfed K e a s b e y and M a t t i s o n , it was, to ma ke 10 t h o s e d e t e r m i n a t i o n s ? 11 A. Which determinations? 12 Q e As to the -- the p o s s i b l e he al th e f f e c t s , 13 a d v e r s e h e a l t h e f f e c t s of a s b e s t o s on the body. 14 A. As an i n d u s t r i a l h y g i e n e e n g i n e e r , it d i d n t 1 5 ma t t e r what the m e c h a n i s m was of the dise as e. The 16 t h i n g that m a t t e r e d was, that t h er e was a d i s e a s e . 17 T h e m e t h o d of p r o t e c t i o n is the same no m a t t e r what 18 the d e g r e e of the d i s e a s e is. We l l , in g e n e r a l , that 19 isn't true. But, s pec if ic al ly , for asbestos, silica 20 or w h e t h e r a s b e s t o s was more h a z a r d o u s than we th ought 21 it w a s , or t w i c e as h a z a r d o u s or t e n t i m e s as 22 h a z a r d o u s , the e n g i n e e r i n g d e s i g n is still the same. 23 So, t h e r e f o r e , I did not do any f u r t h e r -- but, I 24 a c c e p t e d any l i t e r a t u r e - - I d i d n ' t a c c e p t it v e r b a t i m , 25 I t o o k no te of any d i s c u s s i o n s in that --------- --------- ------------K--n--ip-es-Cohen A ssociate"s field. Castleman.CERT000941 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 58 2 . a. Okay. 3 C a n y o u t e l l roe w h a t i n d i v i d u a l at 4 Keasbey and Mattison would have been charged with the 5 r e s p o n s i b i l i t y of e d u c a t i n g t h e m s e l v e s to d e t e r m i n e 6 w h a t p r o b l e m s m i g h t a r i s e b e c a u s e the e m p l o y e e s of 7 that c o r p o r a t i o n were being exposed to a s b e s t o s , can 8 you giv e me the nam e of an i n d i v i d u a l ? 9 A. T h e y had m e d i c a l c o n s u l t a n t s . I b e l i e v e Dr. 10 S t a b l e r c o m e s to mi n d . Dr. D o n a l d c o m e s to 11 m i n d . 12 q . D r . whom, I'm sor ry? 13 h m Dr. Donald, I believe. 14 q m Now, these were p h y s i c i a n s , am I c o r r e c t , 1 5 that wer e used part time by the C o r p o r a t i o n - 16 A . Yes -- 17 q . -- by K e a s b e y and M a t t i s o n - 18 A. Yes. 19 q . 20 -- at l e a s t ? Okay, they were general practitioners 21 w h o w o u l d b e u t i l i z e d o n a f e e f o r s e r v i c e s b a s i s 22 e v e r y t i m e t h e y w o u l d c o m e Tito K e a s b e y a n d M a t t i s o n , or if t h e y w o u l d see a K e a s b e y and M a t t i s o n e m p l o y e e ? A. I b e l i e v e so. Q. Okay. __________ --- K nipes-C ohen ---------;------------------ ------------------- A ss;ociates Castleman.CERT000942 Leon Horowitz - Cross 59 1 These physicians were not specifically 2 3 e n gaged by Keasbey and Mattison to learn about and 4 t r e a t a s b e s t o s r e l a t e d d i s e a s e s ? In o t h e r w o r d s , if 5 a Keasbey and Mattison employee fell down and hurt 6 h i m s e l f at wo r k , they m i g h t be seen by e i t h e r Dr. 7 Stabler or Donald? MR. MASON: 8 I obje c t to the form of 9 the question. It's mis-leading. MR. GALLO: Object to the form. 1 0 11 T H E W I T N E S S : I b e l i e v e it is t r u e , 12 but could I extend to that? 13 MR, COHEN: Surely. 14 THE WITNESS: -- and especially 1 5 a l l u d e to your form of q u e s t i o n s of trying to find more i n f o r m a t i o n about the actual cause or 1 6 17 c h e m i c a l c a u s e or so on of the d i s e a s e . I 18 I believe, and I'm almost sure that these two 19 d o c t o r s , or w h o e v e r they used, were a p p r o a c h e d with that problem. I believe they admitted 20 21 r e a d i l y they were not e x p e r t s in the f ield, and it is __ t h i s i s o n e of the r e a s o n s why they 22 were i n v i t e d to the ATI to listen to Dr. K e n n e t h S m i t h of J o h n s - M a n v i 1 le w h o d e f i n i t e l y w a s m u c h m o r e of an e x p e r t in t h i s p a r t i c u l a r field. --------------- -- --K--n-i-pes-Cohen A' ssociates Castleman.CERT000943 1 Leon Horowi tz Cross 60 2 , T h e g e n e r a l f e e l i n g I want to get a c r o s s is 3 that the knowledge that you're a l l uding to 4 that we all should have had or had, we did not 5 have and were looking for. 6 BY M R . C O H E N : 7 gb Okay, to whom were you looking to supply you 8 with that sort of knowledge? 9 A. To whomever the literature, the organizations 10 like IHF, the ATI, the A c a d e m y of S c i e n c e m e e t i n g s 11 p a r t i c u l a r m e e t i n g s on a s b e s t o s , in 12 t h o s e a r e a s w e w e r e l o o k i n g . 13 Qtm Did you believe that those companies who 14 s u p p l i e d K e a s b e y a n d M a t t i s o n w i t h r a w a s b e s t o s had 1 5 any bo d y of k n o w l e d g e by wh i c h they c o u l d e d u c a t e or 16 a s s i s t K e a s b e y a n d M a t t i s o n in its s e a r c h f o r 17 l o o k i n g at t h e d i s e a s e , a s b e s t o s d i s e a s e p r o c e s s ? 18 MR. GALLO: Objection. 19 MR. MENDELOW: Objection. 20 MR. MASON: O b j e c t i o n , calls for an 21 opinion. 22 MR. CREE DON: Objection. 22 BY MR . COHE N ; 2L q . B a s e d on y our k n o w l e d g e in 19 6 0 , did you know w h e t h e r any of the s u p p l i e r s of raw a s b e s t o s to ----- .--------------- K n --------- i-p--e-s---C-o--h-e-n- A s"sociates castleman.CERT000944 1 Leon Horowi tz Cross 61 2 K e a s b e y and M a t t i s o n had any i n f o r m a t i o n a v a i l a b l e to 3 them that co uld assist K e a s b e y and M a t t i s o n in these 4 areas? 5 MR. MENDELOW: Objection. 6 M R . G A L L O : Objection. Calls for 7 hearsay and speculation. 8 MR . C R E E D O N: O b j e c t i o n . 9 T H E W I T N E S S : It did not o c c u r to 1 0 m e 11 MR. COHEN: Excuse me, I'm just 12 s e e k i n g to i n t r o d u c e it to d e t e r m i n e the 13 s t a t e of k n o w l e d g e of the w i t n e s s , not to 14 p r o v e the tr uth of the ma t t e r . 1 5 BY MR. COHEN: 16 q . Go ahead. 17 A. it di d not o c c u r to me to go to f o r e i g n 18 c o u n t r i e s to get this i n f o r m a t i o n . 19 q . How about -- so, you have no k n o w l e d g e , one 20 wa y or t h e o t h e r , is that what, y o u ' r e s a y i n g , a s t o this 21 as to -- as to what the s u p p l i e r s of as b e s t os 22 ma y or m a y not h a v e k n o w n t h r o u g h t h e i r e x p e r i e n c e ? 23 A. 24 Q . I have no k n ow l e d g e , no. / Okay. Was ther an i n d i v i d u a l that was 21 __________ ------- K n -------------------- ---i-pes-C ohen A ssociates" Castleman.CERT000945 1 Leon Horowitz - Cross 62 2 s p e c i f i c a l l y hi r e d by K e a s b e y and M a t t i s o n to be an 3 industrial hygienist for the Corporation? 4 A. No, there was not. 5 May I amend that a little bit? I 6 b e l i e v e I was hired as a dust c o n t r o l e n g i n e e r , rather 7 than perhaps somebody-else, because I also had 8 industrial hygiene experience. 9 Q. Okay. 10 Other than yourself, was there anyone 11 e l s e at K e a s b e y - M a t t i s o n , w h e n y o u f i r s t j o i n e d t h e m , 12 t h a t w a s t r a i n e d as an i n d u s t r i a l h y g i e n i s t , o t h e r 13 t h a n y o u r s e l f ? 14 A. Afterljoinedthem? 15 q . No, at the t i m e y o u j o i n e d t h e m , was t h e r e 16 a n o t h e r i n d i v i d u a l wh o was t r a i n e d as or o c c u p i e d 17 t h e p o s i t i o n of i n d u s t r i a l h y g i e n i s t ? 18 h m T h e r e w e r e two i n d i v i d u a l s who as part of t h e i r 19 o t h e r jo b did s o m e of the s a m p l i n g w o r k as far as 20 f i n d i n g out, trying to find out what e x p o s u r e was. q. 21 Wer e they i n d u s t r i a l h y g i e n i s t s by p r o f e s s i o n ? 22 A. T h e y were not i n d u s t r i a l h y g i e n i s t s by p r o f e s s i o n 23 Q . 24 0kay . . What d id they do, other than taking 25 d u s t s a m p l i n g s o c c a s i o n a l l y ? --- ----------- ------------- K--n--i-p-e-s---C--o-h-e-n---A-s-s-oc:-i-a-t-e-s--- Castleman.CERT000946 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 63 2 A. Well, Mr. May was a boiler engineer and designer. 3 And Mr. Schmidt had left before I came there, and I 4 don't know what his function was. 5 qm So, o t h e r than -- w h a t e v e r k n o w l e d g e Dr. 6 Doctors Donald and Stabler had, you were the only 7 i n d i v i d u a l who had e x p e r i e n c e as an i n d u s t r i a l h y g i e n i s t 8 at the t i m e you j o i n e d K e a s b e y - M a t t i s o n , as a - 9 as a p r o f e s s i o n ; is that c o r r e c t ? 1 0 A. 11 12 13 14 1 5 1 6 As far as I know. MR. MASON: I o b j e c t to the f o r m of the question. I don't know whether you're s a y i n g e x p e r i e n c e , or as a p r o f e s s i o n , or both. M R . C O H E N : O k a y , let me b r e a k the. question down. 17 B Y M R . C O H E N: 18 q . Based on your e x p e r i e n c e , were you the only i n d i v i d u a l at K e a s b e y - M a t t i s o n that had i n d u s t r i a l hygi ene training? A. i c a n o n l y t e l l y o u w h a t I b e l i e v e , if y o u w a n t to a c c e p t that? Q. I'll accept that. MR. GALLO: Objection. MR. MASON: Objection. _ _______________ ____________K__n_i_p_e-s---C--o-h-e-n---A--s-s-ociates castieman.ctKiuuu947 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 64 MR. BRUCH: Same objection. 2 THE WITNESS: I believe the dust was 3 always a problem, and many other people, including 4 Mr. S c h n e i d e r and Mr. S p e d d i n g w e r e a w a r e of 5 i n d u s t r i a l h y g i e n e as a t e c h n i q u e , and t r i e d to 6 p e r f o r m , or have p e r f o r m e d the f u n c t i o n s that 7 an industrial hygienist should do, but they 8 9 didn't have a -- a specialist. MR. MASON: I w i t h d r a w my o b j e c t i o n . 1 0 11 MR. COHEN: So, they were not 12 trained -- certainly. THE W I T N E S S : As far as I know, 13 14 they didn't MR. GALLO: I w i t h d r a w mine, as well. 1 5 16 BY M R . COHEN: Q. 17 Now, when was the first time that you learned that t h e r e was no r e l a t i o n s h i p or there was a theory 18 that there was no r e l a t ionship between the threshold 19 limit v a l u e , and the d e v e l o p m e n t of c a r c i n o m a , and I 2C 21 i n c l u d e w i t h i n t h a t , m e s o t h e l i o m a ? MR. GALLO: O b j e c t i o n to the form of 2t 2: the question. MR. BRUCH: O b j e c t i o n to the form. 2. MR . C R E EDON: Obj ection. _____________________-- -----K---n-ip--e-s---C--oh- en A ssoc"iates Castleman.CERT000948 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 65 2 THE WITNESS: I don't believe you can 3 include both mesothelioma and cancer together. 4 BY MR. COHEN: 5 q. is m e s o t h e l i o m a , to y o u r k n o w l e d g e , a f o r m of 6 carcinoma? 7 A. 8 Yes. MR. GALLO: Objection. 9 BY MR. COHEN: 10 q s T h e n , l e t ' s d i s c u s s t h e m s e p a r a t e l y , if y o u 11 f i n d it e a s i e r to d o so. 12 Did t h e r e ever come a p e r i o d of time 13 t h a t y o u l e a r n e d as an i n d u s t r i a l h y g i e n i s t , or as a - 1 4 I'm s o r r y , as a dust c o n t r o l e n g i n e e r for K e a s b e y 1 5 M a t t i s o n or C e r t a i n t e e d , that there may not be a r e l a 16 t i o n s h i p b e t w e e n the t h r e s h o l d limit v a l u e , and the 17 d e v e l o p m e n t of c a r c i n o m a ? 18 MS. GIBSON: Objection, to the extent 19 that this asks about his knowledge after 1968. 20 MR. BRUCH: I have that same 21 o bjection, also. Also, object on a technicality 22 here, Mr. Cohen. He was a dust control 23 e n g ineer for K e a s b e y - H a t t i s o n . He had a different position with Certainteed. MR. COHEN: All right, let me -- I ------------- -----K--n-i--p-e-s---C--o-h-e-n----A--s-s-o-c-i-a-t-e-s-- Castleman.CbklUUU949 ' 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 66 2 think that's -- that's a valid objection. Let 3 me c o n f i n e my -- let me c o n f i n e my q u e s t i o n i n g 4 then just to K e a s b e y and Ma t t i s o n . 5 BY MR, COHEN: 6 qb W h i l e you were e m p l o y e d by K e a s b e y and M a t t i s o n , 7 did you ever have occasion to learn that there was 8 not, or t h e r e ' s a body of m e d i c a l or s c i e n t i f i c 9 literature that suggested that you could not utilize 10 the t h r e s h o l d limit value or T L V , when you wer e t a l k i n g 11 a b o u t a r i s k of c a r c i n o m a ? 12 MR. MASON: I object to the p h r ase , 13 body of l i t e r a t u r e . ' 14 THE W I T N E S S : N obody ever, in my 1 5 knowledge, discussed threshold limit related 1 6 t h r e s h o l d limits in g e n e r a l r e l a t e d to c a n c e r 17 in gene r a l . So, t h e r e f o r e , nobody d i s c u s s e d 18 t h r e s h o l d l i m i t of a s b e s t o s to c a n c e r . W h e n it 19 b e c a m e , l e t ' s s a y , if a n d w h e n it b e c a m e 20 a c c e p t e d t h a t a s b e s t o s w a s r e l a t e d to c a n c e r , if 21 a n d w h e n it b e c a m e a s b e s t o s accepted, the u n d e r s t a n d i n g would be that the AC6IH or any b o d y that would create threshold limit values would -- would not use a threshold limit value for a c a n c e r p r o d u c i n g m a t e r i a l . It w o u l d be zero. --------- -- ---------- --------K--n--ip--e-s--Cohen A s"sociates Castleman.CERT000950 67 1 Leon Horowitz - Cross 2 Y MR. COHEN: 3 . And why w o u l d it be zero as o p p o s e d to some 4 tandard above zero? 5 . Because they don't know what quantity will 6 ause cancer. 7 . Now -- 8 . A nd it still e x i s t s as a t h r e s h o l d limi t , by 9 he way. T h e r e is a t h r e s h o l d limit for a s b e s t o s 1 0 11 T h a t is c o r r e c t , but does that t h r e s h o l d limit 12 x i s t as i n s o f a r as the' d e v e l o p m e n t of c a n c e r is 13 once rned? 1 4 MS. GIBSON: Objection. 1 5 THE W I T N E S S : As I said, they do not 1 6 t h e y do not r e l a t e it to c a n c e r , t h r e s h o l d 17 limit. MR. GALLO: Move to strike the whole 18 19 last a n s w e r as n o n - r e s p o n s i v e . 20 MR. COHEN: 21 . Now, that was as to your k n o w l e d g e , as of the 22 ime you were e m p l o y e d by K e a s b e y - M a t t i s o n MR. GALLO: T h a t ' s why I move to strike 23 24 i t MS. GIBSON: Not that last question. 25 ---K--n-i-p-e-s--C;--o-h-e--n---A-s-s-o--c-i-a-t-e-s- Castleman.CEKIUUUybT 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 68 2 . BY HR. COHEN: 3 q. C an y o u tell me at the ti m e that you b e c a m e 4 e m p l o y e d by Certainteed Corporation, what was your 5 position with Certainteed? 6 A. i c o n t i n u e d as a dust co ntrol e n g i n e e r , do ing 7 industrial hygiene work. 8 q. Now, at any time w h il e you were e m p l o y e d by the 9 C e r t a i n t e e d ' C o r p o r a t i o n , did you ever have o c c a s i o n to 1 0 learn that the t h r e s h o l d limit value might not be 11 a p p l i c a b l e w h e n d e a l i n g w i t h c a r c i n o m a ? 12 A.- T h e s a m e a n s w e r s I g a v e b e f o r e . It was ther 13 w a s no d i s c u s s i o n a b o u t t h r e s h o l d limit r e l a t i n g to 14 c a n c e r . 1 5 Q. So, you -- 16 A . That I was aware of. 17 Q . Now, let me ask you again the same q u e s t i o n s 18 w i t h r e g a r d to m e s o t h e l i o m a . F i r s t , w h e n y o u w e r e 19 e m p l o y e d by K e a s b e y - M a t t i s o n , di d y o u h a v e a n y k n o w l e d g e 20 or u n d e r s t a n d i n g tha t t h r e s h o l d l imit v a l u e was 21 a p p l i c a b l e w h e n d i s c u s s i n g m e s o t h e l i o m a ? 22 A. The same answer as before. The r e was no 23 r e l a t i o n s h i p b e t w e e n -- or d i s c u s s i o n of a r e l a t i o n 24 s h i p b e t w e e n t h r e s h o l d l i m i t and m e s o t h e l i o m a as a 25 c a n c e r . -------- --- - ~Knipes-Co~hen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000952 1 Leon Horowitz - Cross < 2 qs No d i s c u s s i o n t hat y o u had w i t h a n y o n e ? 3 A. Thatlknewof. 4 q. And, again, during the period of time that you 5 we r e e m p l o y e d by C e r t a i n t e e d , would your a n s w e r be 6 thesame? 7 A. Same thing. 8 q. .Now, when you first came with K e a s b e y H a t t i son 9 in 1 9 6 0 , w e r e you a w a r e of any s c i e n t i f i c or m e d i c a l 10 l i t e r a t u r e s u g g e s t i n g that s m o king plus e x p o s u r e to 11 a s b e s t o s c o u l d i n c r e a s e t h e r i s k of d e v e l o p m e n t of 12 a s b e s t o s r e l a t e d d i s e a s e ? 13 A. 14 q . Not at that time. At what point did you b e come aware of that 15 postulate that -- that 1 6 A. W h e n p a p e r s were w r i t t e n , e s p e c i a l l y at the 17 m e e t i n g in - -- at the W a l d o r f - A s t o r i a . 18 Q. T h i s w o u l d be 1964? 1 9 A. That's right. 20 q . An d, at that t i m e , you were e m p l o y e d by 21 C e r t a i n t e e d ; is t h a t c o r r e c t ? 22 A. That's correct. 23 q . Now, I b e l i e v e y e s t e r d a y , in your t e s t i m o n y , 24 you s t a t e d that C e r t a i n t e e d had a d i v i s i o n that was 25 c a l l e d B e s t W o o l . _ ____________ -- -------- -K--n--ip--e-s--C--o--h-e-n- -- A ssociates ------------Caslleiiian:CERT000953 1 Leon Horowitz - Cross 2 Wall, W-A-L-L, Best Walt. 3 . And/ that that was u l timately sold to G e o r g i a - 4 ific in or a b o u t 1965; is that c o r r e c t ? 5 T h a t is cor r e c t . 6 MR. BRUCH: I o bject to this line of 7 q u e s t i o n s . It ' s not p e r t i n e n t to a ny of 8 the P l a i n t i f f s on distribution that this has 9 been noticed for. 10 MR. COHEN: Well/ that's not correct 11 w i t h r e g a r d to P l a i n t i f f s t h a t I r e p r e s e n t . 12 Y MR . COHEN: 13 Can you tell me what the Best Walt D i v i s i o n of 14 erta i n t e e d did/ what they m a n u f a c t u r e d or d i s t r i b u t e d ? 1 5 T h e y were m a n u f a c t u r e r of g y p s u m - - p r o d u c t s , 16 y p s u m w a l l p r o d u c t s . Did those p r o d u c t s cont a i n a s b e s t o s , to your 17 18 1 9 20 l. ge? To my k n o w l e d g e , no. And, do you recall in what building Best Wa 11 21 a t d in? 22 t. I don't know of any Best Wall o p e r a t i o n n the 23 Vm e r a r e a at a l l . 24 l. 25 Okay. W h e r e was the Best Wall o p e r a t i o n of -- ---K--n-i-p-e-s---C--o-h-en A sso_ciates Castleman.CERT000954 1 Leon Horowitz - Cross 71 2 Certai nteed? 3 A. I never visited a n y , b u t I think they had one 4 in D e l a w a r e , and m a y b e out in the West C o a s t , but 5 I d o n 't know. 6 Q. Do you know where on the West Coast? 7 A. 8 Q. I don't know. Was Best Wall an e x i s t i n g ent i t y of K e a s b e y 9 e n d Ha t ti s o n p r i o r to C e r t a i n t e e d t a k i n g o v e r 10 a s s e t s of K e a s b e y - M a t t i s o n ? 11 A, No, it was C e r t a i n t e e d , as such. 12 q . Now, I believe you stated that there was a -- 13 a p l a n t l o c a t e d in St. L o u i s -- 14 A . 15 q , Yes. -- which belonged to C e r t a i n t e e d C o r p o r a t i o n at 16 s o m e p o i n t ? 17 A . Yes . 18 q . Do yo u know w h e t h e r that p l a n t in St. L o u i s was 19 a l s o a p l a n t of K e a s b e y - M a t t i s o n ? 20 A. 21 Q. Y e s , it was, A n d , ca n you' t e l l me w h a t wasm a n u f a c t u r e d at 22 t h a t p l a n t ? 23 A. Asbestos cement -- 24 MR. M A S O N : I o b j e c t to - 25 THE COURT REPORTER: -- ----------------- -- ---- - Knipes-Cohen A ssociates I'm sorry? castleman.CtKlUUU9bb 1 Leon Horowi tz Cross 72 2 MR. MASON: I object to any questions 3 p e r t a i n i n g to St. Louis plant as i r r e l e v a n t . 4 MR. COHEN: Okay. 5 MR. C R E E D O N : J o i n in the o b j e c t i o n . 6 BY MR. COHEN: 7 q, Was there any other asbestos containing product 8 p r o d u c e d at that plant? 9 MR. BRUCH: I object to this question. 1 0 Are you still referring to C e r t a i n t e e d ' s time? 11 MR. COHEN: Well, let me ask, whil e 1 2 he was at K e a s b e y and M a t t i s o n plant. 13 BY M R . C O H E N : 14, q . Are you- aware of any other a s b e s t o s c o n t a i n i n g 15 products - 16 A . I'm not sure. I think corrugated asbestos 17 c e m e n t wa s b u i l t , t o o , but I'm not s u r e . 18 q . Now, when you say, corrugated asbestos cement, 19 can y o u t e l l me s p e c i f i c a l l y w h a t y o u ' r e t a l k i n g 20 a b o u t ? 21 A. T h a t ' s the c o r r u g a t e d r o o f i n g t y p e of t h i n g . 22 MR. BRUCH: During what employer? 23 THE WITNESS: I -- I can't really 24 r e c a l l . A n d I'm n o t e v e n s u r e t h e y m a d e it 25 there. ------------------- ---------------- -K--n--i-p--e--s---C--o--h--e-n- A ssociates castieman.CtKl'000956 1 Leon Horowi tz Cross 73 2 MR. BRUCH: I move to strike the 3 answe r t hen . 4 BY MR. COHEN: 5 q. Now, was t h e r e a plant n u m b e r f i v e , at the 6 Ambler facility? 7 A. I d o n ' t r e m e m b e r a p l a n t n u m b e r f i v e , u n l e s s it 8 w a s the t e x t i l e m i l l , b e f o r e it m o v e d up to M e r e d i t h , 9 but that was before my time. 1 0 Q. So, by the time you a r r i v e d at K e a s b e y and 11 M a t t i s o n in 1 9 6 0 , t h e r e w a s n o l o n g e r a t e x t i l e p r o d u c 12 ing f a c i l i t y at A m b l e r ? 13 A. The r e was no longer a textile p r o d u c i n g plant 14 at A m b l e r . 1 5 Q. A f t e r that t e x t i l e p r o d u c i n g f a c i l i t y moved to 16 N ew H a m p s h i r e , can y o u tell me w h a t w e n t i n t o that 17 p a r t i c u l a r l o c a t i o n ? 18 A. I can only tell you what was in the location 19 a f t e r I ~ ~ 20 <3. Ok a y , if you would. 21 A . There were various processes for making tex 22 a s b e s t o s t e k t i l e m a t e r i a l s . 23 q . Let me back track, I think I may have m i s 24 u n d e r s t o o d you. 25 At t h e t i m e y o u w e r e w i t h K e a s b e y - --- -------------- -- ----:-- " K nipes-Cohen A-- ssociates Castleman.CERT000957 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 74 2 . M a t t i s o n , was there an exis t i n g a s b e s t o s c o n t a i n i n g 3 t e x t i l e f a c i l i t y at A m b l e r ? 4 A. Not at A m b l e r , no. 5 Q. A 11 r i g h t . 6 That -- I believe you stated that 7 prior to com i n g to K e a s b e y and M a t t i s o n , what had 8 e x i s t e d as a t e x t i l e f a c i l i t y moved a l r e a d y up to 9 New Hamps h i r e ? 1 0 A. Had already been moved. 11 q . Okay, now, do you know what went into the 12 sp ace at A m b l e r , after the t e x t i l e f a c i l i t y was 13 m o v e d to New H a m p s h i r e ? 14 A. 15 , 1 6 17 18 19 20 I can't p o s sibly - - I don't know, no. MR. COHEN: Now, could we just go off the video for a second? MR. FORTE: Yes, sir, we're now going off the v i d e o t a p e . T h i s is the end of v i d e o t a p e n u m b e r six. T h e t i m e is 1 1 : 0 2 . (Whereupon a break was taken from 21 11:02 a.m. to 11:15 a.m.) 22 BY M R . C O H E N : 23 Q. You testified yesterday -- 24 MR. FORTE: W e 're now back on the 2 5 r e c o r d . T h i s is the b e g i n n i n g of v i d e o t a p e -------------------------------- Knipes-Coh_en A ssociates Castleman.CERT000958 1 Leon Horwitz Cross 75 2 n u m b e r 7. T h e t i m e is 1 1 : 1 5 . 3 BY MR . COHEN: 4 Q. Mr. Horowitz, you testified yesterday that 5 s o m e t i m e a r o u n d S e p t e m b e r of 1 9 6 0 / a Dr. Knox from 6 T u r n e r and N e w a l l s p o k e with you and a n u m b e r of 7 o t h e r p e o p l e at a m e e t i n g and at that t i m e the s u b j e c t 8 of cancer and asbestos exposure and m e sothelioma and 9 a s b e s t o s e x p o s u r e came up; is that c o r r e c t ? 1 0 MR. M A S O N : I o b j e c t to the f o r m of 11 the question about from Turner and Newall. 12 T h e w i t n e s s d i d not t e s t i f y t h a t he knew., 13 e x a c t l y what Dr. Knox's r e l a t i o n s h i p was - ~ 14 MR. COHEN: I believe -- 1 5 M R . M A S O N : - - in f a c t , I t h i n k if 1 6 you read the papers, that the witness, that 17 Mr. Gersky produced - 18 THE COURT REPORTER: That Mr. - 19 M R . C O H E N: G u s k y . 20 MR. MASON: Mr. Gusky produced, you'll 21 fi n d that Dr. Knox was d e s c r i b e d as a c o n s u l t a n t 22 to T u r n e r a n d N e w a l l , n o t f r o m T u r n e r and 23 Newall. 24 MR. COHEN: Anything else? 25 MR. P A U L : H o w e v e r , the w i t n e s s did, in K nipe;s-C ohen A ssociat_es castieman.ctKiuuu959 1 Leon Horowitz - C r o s s 76 2 fact/ make that statement. 3 MR. COHEN: He made his s t a t e m e n t 4 y e s t e r d a y / Mr. Mas o n / that Dr. Knox was from 5 Turner and Newall. 6 MR. MASON: He did not use that 7 p h r a s e . I d o n ' t b e l i e v e he did. 8 MR. C O H E N : We l l / w h e t h e r he did or 9 did not is a l r e a d y t r a n s c r i b e d , so - 1 0 MR. PAUL: The Jury will note what 11 he said . 12 MR. COHEN: Okay. 13 BY M R . C O H E N : 14 Q. Mr. H o r o w i t z , at the time Dr. K nox s p o k e with 15 you, and the s u b j e c t s of cancer and m e s o t h e l i o m a 16 came up, was, to y our k n o w l e d g e , K e a s b e y and M a t t i s o n , 17 r e c e i v i n g a n y ra w a s b e s t o s f i b e r f r o m any m i n e s in 18 t h e D o m i n i o n of C a n a d a ? 1 9 A. I, of c o u r s e , c a n ' t r e l a t e it to the e x a c t 20 t i m e , but I k n e w t h a t t h e y w e r e g e t t i n g s o m e f i b e r s 21 f r o m C a n a d a . 22 q . Now, I believe yest e r d a y when Mr. Shein q u e s 23 t i o n e d y o u , y o u s t a t e d t h a t yo u w e r e f a m i l i a r w i t h the 24 n a m e , C a s s i a r . 25 A. Yes, I was. -------- -- ------------ - Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000960 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 77 2, Q. A n d , is it yo u r b e l i e f tha t C a s s i a r w a s a 3 s u p p l i e r of raw a s b e s t o s fiber to K e a s b e y and 4 Matti son? 5 A. Yes . 6 q. Now, also yesterday, wediscussed Turn e r 7 Broth e r s ' A s b e s t o s . Do you reca l l that? 8 A. Yes. 9 q. Now, can you tell me what youru n d e r s tanding was 10 of w h a t T u r n e r B r o t h e r s ' A s b e s t o s was as of 1 9 6 0 ? 11 MR. MASON: I object to your 1 2 q u e s t i o n . It c a l l s for an o p i n i o n . 13 MR. COHEN: Certainly, any facts 1 4 that an i n d i v i d u a l a c q u i r e s by v i r t u e of 1 5 their e x i s t e n c e on a day to day basis 1 6 c a l l s for some a c c u m u l a t i o n of k n o w l e d g e and 17 opinion. 18 MR. MASON: No, you' r e a s k i n g him 1 9 what his u n d e r s t a n d i n g was, i n s tead of ask i n g 20 him, what did he know, and that's what 21 I*m o b j e c t i n g to. 22 MR. COHEN: Okay. 23 T H E W I T N E S S : I d i d not k n o w , and I 24 h a d a g e n e r a l f e e l i n g of a T u r n e r N e w a l l b e i n g 25 ah English company that operated worldwide and K nipes-C ohen --------- :------ --------------------------- - A ssociates Castleman.CERT000961 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 78 2 owned Keasbey and Mattison. That's all I know. 3 BY MR. COHEN: 4 Q. Can you make - 5 MR. MASON: I move to strike. 6 BY MR. COHEN: 7 Q. Can you make any relationship between Turner 8 Brothers' Asbestos and Turner and Newall? 9 A. I cannot, no. 1 0 MR . MASON: I obj e c t . 11 B Y MR . C O H E N : 12 Q. Now, you s t a t e d that at least as o f S e p t e m b e r of 13 1 9 6 0 , y o u b e c a m e aw a re of t h e f a c t t h a t it w a s th e 14 E u r o p e a n e x p e r i e n c e , m o r e s p e c i f i c a l l y , the E n g l i s h 15 experience, that there was a relationship between cancer 16 a n d e x p o s u r e to a s b e s t o s t h r o u g h y o u r d i s c u s s i o n s wit h 17 Dr. Knox; i s that corr e c t ? 18 A. That was the i n f o r m a t i o n Dr. Knox passed o n 19 t o us. 20 Q. Did you have any reason; to doubt the -- that 21 d i s c u s s i o n b y O r . K n o x ? 22 A. I never doubt a professional. I just absorb 23 t h e i n f o r m a t i o n a n d u s e it, if l e a n . 24 Q . Okay. 25 Now, as of S e p t e m b e r , 1960 f o r w a r d , -------- K nipes-C ohen A ssociates :---------------------------------------------------------------------- Castleman.CERT0009'62 1 Leon Horowitz - Cross 79 2 . h i l e y o u w e r e e m p l o y e d by K e a s b e y - M a t-t i s o n , d i d - - 3 . '64? 4 . No, 1960 forward, -- 5 . Yeah. 6 . -- w h i l e you were e m p l o y e d by K e a s b e y and 7 attison, did Keasbey and Mattison ever advise its 8 wn e m p l o y e e s that they may be s u b ject to d e v e l o p i n g 9 a n c e r of the body by virtue of their w o r k i n g with 1 0 s b e s t o s f i b e r , and I m e a n in the sense of s p e c i f i c a l l y 11 tating cancer, or carcinoma. 12 MR. GALLO: Objection. 13 THE WITNESS: The whole industry was 14 in a s t a t e of s h o c k , if you want to call it, - 1 5 MR. GALLO: Objection, nonresponsive. 16 MR. COHEN: Well, they - 17 THE WITNESS: -- they didn't accept - 18 MR. GALLO: E x c u s e me, I'm go i n g to 19 o b j e c t and move to strike. 20 IY M R . C O H E N : 21 They did not? 22 They did not. 23 I. Okay. 24 Now, l i k e w i s e , you w e r e a d v i s e d as 25 fere the o t h e r i n d i v i d u a l ^ p r e s i d e n t -- p r e s e n t , r a t h e r , Knipes-Cohen Associates Gastleman.ctKiuuuyb3 ^ 1 Leon Horowitz Cros s 80 2 hat m e s o t h e l i o m a was a d i sease that an i n dividual 3 o u l d d e v e l o p by v i r t u e of a s b e s t o s e x p o s u r e ; is 4 hat correct? 5 . I was a d v i s e d by Dr. Knox, as I said, but, 6 g a i n , t h a t d o e s n ' t m e a n it was a c c e p t e d . 7 . It d o e s n ' t m e a n it was r e j e c t e d , t h o u g h , 8 ioes it? 9 ,. It d o e s n ' t m e a n it w a s r e j e c t e d , it d o e s n ' t 1 0 lean it was a c c e p t e d . It was a p i e c e of k n o w l e d g e 11 hat required further investigation. 12 MR. GALLO: Objection. 13 IY M R . C O H E N : 14 I. Other than Dr. Knox, you were not aware of any 15 iody of s c i e n t i f i c or m e d i c a l w r i t i n g s t h a t d i s c u s s e d 16 :h e s e s a m e p r e m i s e s t h a t Dr. K n o x w a s n o w t e l l i n g y o u 17 i b o u t ; we re y o u ? 18 T h e p r e m i s e of m e s o t h e l i o m a . 1 9 1. Orcancer. 20 Cancer, I believe I stated that I had read, 21 and t h e n i n v e s t i g a t e d t h r o u g h t h e i n s u r a n c e c o m p a n y 22 ibout a m o n t h or t w o b e f o r e , r i g h t . 23 1. So, other than Dr. Knox, you knew that there 24 a s some scientific and medical information available 25 that s u g g e s t e d t h a t c a n c e r c o u l d be c a u s e d by a s b e s t o s Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CtRIS&T 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 81 2 exposure? 3 A. Cancer, yes. 4 Q. Okay. 5 A n d , d i d you t e l l t h e e m p l o y e e s at 6 Keasbey and Hatti son, that they could develop cancer 7 b e c a u s e of their a s b e s t o s e x p o s u r e ? 8 The same attitude - 9 MR. GALLO: Objection. 1 0 MR. CREEDON: Objection. 11 B Y M R . C O H E N : 12 Q. Yes or no? 13 A. No. 14 MR. G A L L O : E x c u s e me, I o b j e c t to 1 5 the form of the q u e s t i o n , do you mean him, 16 per sona l ly? 17 BY MR . C O H E N : 18 Q . You . 19 A . 20 Q. 21 I did not. Okay. To your knowledge, did anyone 22 23 MR. PAUL: Is my o b j e c t i o n no t e d -- 24 just a second. I also object to the 25 question. K nipes-C ohen A ssociates -------------------------------------------------------------------Castleman.CERT000965 1 Leon Horowitz Cros s 82 2 BY MR. COHEN: 3 q. Did you advise, or did you instruct anyone 4 else to a d v i s e the e m p l o y e e s at K e a s b e y - M a t t i s o n that 5 they c o u l d d e v e l o p c a n c e r by v i r t u e of t h e i r e x p o s u r e 6 to a s b e s t o s ? 7 A. That was not my fu n c t i o n . I did not advise 8 a n y b o d y to do that. 9 Q. Okay. 10 To your k n o w l e d g e / di d a n y o n e at 11 K e a s b e y a n d M a t t i s o n a d v i s e t h e i r o w n - - o k a y , t o y o u r 12 k n o w l e d g e / d i d a n y o n e at K e a s b e y a n d M a t t i s o n a d v i s e 13 e m p l o y e e s of K e a s b e y a n d M a t t i s o n t h a t t h e y c o u l d 1 4 d e v e l o p c a n c e r b e c a u s e of th e i r e x p o s u r e to a s b e s t o s ? 1 5 A. T h e y d i d n o t . T h e y w e r e not s u r e of it 16 t h e m s e l v e s . 17 MR. PAUL: Can we go off the v i d e o 18 tape for just a - - 19 MR. C O H E N : I'm g o i n g to o b j e c t to 20 that/ and move -- move to s t r i k e as not being 21 responsive. MR. STEWART: Excuse me, we're now 22 23 g o i n g off the r e c o r d . T h e t i m e is 1 1 : 2 2 . (Whereupon the following discussions 24 25 were held off the videotape.) ---- -- ---- -- -----------------K--n-i-p-e-s-C ohen A"sso cia tes Castleman.CERT000966 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 83 2 MR. PAUL: I want to note my o b j e c t i o n 3 to this seri e s of q u e s t i o n s / b e c a u s e it's our 4 c o n t e n t i o n that in our case, and I'm r e f e r r i n g 5 to Weisberg and Bushman case only/ the question 6 of the c o n d u c t of the e m p l o y e r and what the 7 e m p l o y e r knew or did know or told or did not 8 t ell the e m p l o y e e s is i r r e l e v a n t and o b j e c t i o n 9 able in that p a r t i c u l a r case. 1 0 Now, I want my o b j e c t i o n noted 11 g e n e r a l l y to the line of q u e s t i o n s by Mr. 12 Cohen and by any D e f e n d a n t s on that p a r t i c u l a r 1 3 p o i n t . I d o n ' t w a n t to' h a v e to m a k e t h e 14 objection e a c h t i m e / but I want our objection 1 5 to the line of q u e s t i o n noted. T h a t ' s the 16 only -- I don't see any reason to put that on the 17 videotape. 18 MR. B R U C H : I join in that 1 9 objection. 20 MR. STEWART: We're now back on the 21 r e c o r d . T h e t i m e is 11:23. 22 BY M R . C O H E N : 23 Q. Mr. H o r o w i t z , a f t e r b e i n g a d v i s e d by Dr. Knox 24 of t h e e x i s t e n c e of m e s o t h e l i o m a as a d i s e a s e w h i c h 25 c o u l d d e v e l o p b e c a u s e of a s b e s t o s e x p o s u r e / did you e v e r ---- --------------------- ---K--n-i-p-e-s---C--o-h-e--n---A-s-s-o--c i--a tes Castleman.CERT000967 1 Leon Horowi tz Cross 84 2 . advise, you, personally, ever advise any employees 3 at K e a s b e y and Matti son that they may f ace that h e a l t h 4 iazard risk, b e c a u s e of their e x p o s u r e ? 5 A. 6 q. I did not. t)o y o u k n o w w h e t h e r a n y o n e e l s e at K e a s b e y - 7 M a t t i s o n so a d v i s e d its e m p l o y e e s ? 8 A. I do not know that. 9 Q. Okay. 1 0 Now, m o v i n g f o r w a r d in t i m e , o n c e 11 y o u w e r e h i r e d as a n e m p l o y e e o f t h e C e r t a i n t e e d 12 C o r p o r a t i o n as an i n d u s t r i a l h y g i e n i s t , in a d d i t i o n 13 to a dust control engineer, did you advise any 14 C e r t a i n t e e d e m p l o y e e s of the cancer or m e s o t h e l i o m a 15 risk that they may face? 16 A . You're talking about employees who might face 17 t h a t , but not m a n a g e m e n t . I a d v i s e d m a n a g e m e n t , of 18 c o u r s e . B u t , y o u d o n ' t m e a n m a n a g e m e n t ? 19 q . No, I'm talking about employees. 20 A. Employees, no, I did not. 21 q . Management was already aware that these two 22 d i s e a s e s c o u l d e x i s t by v i r t u e of t h e i r a t t e n d a n c e 23 at t h a t S e p t e m b e r m e e t i n g with Dr. K n o x ? MR. BRUCH: Objection. THE WITNESS: Not the Certainteed --------------- ----- :--- -- --K--n--ip es-C oh en A sso_cia tes Castleman.CERT000968 1 Leon Horowi t z Cr o s s 85 2 people. They were not there. 3 BY MR . COHEN: 4 Q. Well/ - 5 A. you asked me when C e r t a i n t e e d took over, whether 6 I advised employees who were exposed. And I was just 7 trying to clarify I had -- I did advise the management, 8 but I did not advise the particular workers. 9 MR. B RUCH: I w o u l d just like to 1 0 ra i s e my o b j e c t i o n that there were no 11 C e r t a i n t e e d e m p l o y e e s at the m e e t i n g with 12 Dr, Knox. 13 MR. C O H E N : T h a t ' s c o r r e c t . I 14 apologize for that. THE WITNESS: That was a mistake. 1 5 16 BY M R . C O H E N : 17 q . Now, an d th a t is the r e a s o n , t h e r e f o r e , that 18 y o u a d v i s e d C e r t a i n t e e d m a n a g e m e n t of the - 19 A. 20 q i New management. --- the new management of w h a t h a d o c c u r r e d at 21 t h a t m e e t i n g w i t h D r . K n o x ; is t h a t c o r r e c t ? 22 MR . BRUCH : Obj ection. 23 BY MR . C O H E N : 24 <5 . M r . H o r o w i t z , is t h a t c o r r e c t ? 25 A. What was ----- ---------- ------ -- the question again? Knipes-Cohen ; Associates Castleman.CERT000969 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 86 2 Q. 3 Okay. Since there was a new corporation - 4 A. Right. q. 5 -- you a d v i s e d them of the c o n t e n t of your 6 d i s c u s s i o n s with Dr. Knox as of S e p t e m b e r , 1960? MR . BRUCH : Objection. 7 TH E W I T N E S S : I do n ' t know if I a d v i s e d 8 them of a p a r t i c u l a r meet i n g with Dr. Knox, 9 but I a d v i s e d them of the e x i s t i n g k n o w l e d g e 10 or q u e s t i o n s c o n c e r n i n g cancer and m e s o t h e l i o m a 11 12 at the time. T h a t ' s m a n a g e m e n t . 13 MR. C O H E N : R i g h t . 14 BY MR . COHE N : q. 1 5 Now, once m a n a g e m e n t was made aware of that 16 i n f o r m a t i o n , do y o u k n o w w h e t h e r a n y o n e on b e h a l f of m a n a g e m e n t at C e r t a i n t e e d C o r p o r a t i o n ad v i s e d 17 C e r t a i n t e e d e m p l o y e e s that t h e y might face risks of 18 c a r c i n o m a or m e s o t h e l i o m a b ecause of asbestos 19 20 e x p o s u r e ? 21 M R . B R U C H : O b j e c t i o n . THE WITNESS: Based on the questi o n a b l e 22 23 at t h a t t i m e , of the t r u t h of t h a t s t a t e m e n t , 24 25 - -- they did not, no, so advise. MR. COHEN: Okay, I'm go i n g to o b j ect, " K nipes-C oh~en A:ssoc|iates Castleman.CERT000970 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 87 2 and move to strike, 3 MR. BRUCH: I object to c o u n s e l 4 asking questions and moving to strike 5 a n s w e r s he d o e s n ' t like. 6 MR. COHEN: Well, no, it's an 7 answer that's not r e s p o n s i v e to the question. 8 MR. B R U C H : I t h o u g h t it was 9 perfectly responsive. 1 0 MR. COHEN: Fine. And I'll follow 11 it up t h e n - 12 BY MR . C O H E N : 13 q . Mr. H o r o w i t z , can y o u tel l me h o w it is t h a t 14 y o u ' r e a b l e to t e s t i f y as to what m a n a g e m e n t at 1 5 C e r t a i n t e e d b e l i e v e d to be t r u e and not t r u e , or is this 16 just s p e c u l a t i o n on your part? 17 A. 18 S p e c u l a t i o n on my part. MR. COHEN: Okay, now, I'll move to 19 strike it. 20 MR. BRUCH: Then you shouldn't ask 21 t h o s e t y p e of q u e s t i o n s . Y o u ' r e a s k i n g for 22 speculation. 23 MR. COHEN: No, not n e c e s s a r i l y . 24 It's when it's offered gratuitously that I 25 object. ---- -- ----------- -- --- - Knipes-C~ohen A ssoci_ates Castleman.CERT000971 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 88 2 MR. GALLO: Also ask whether he's 3 s p e c u l a t i n g as to what others may have done. 4 MR. COHEN: Well/ that/ that he can 5 t e s t i f y to from his own knowledge. 6 THE WITN E S S : I cannot te s t i f y to 7 what e v e r y b o d y did and e v e r y b o d y in the p l a n t 8 did at all. 9 MR. COHEN: Right. 1 0 THE W I T N E S S : I cannot do that. 11 B Y M R . C O H E N : 12 q . My q u e s t i o n to you/ Mr. Horowitz/ is, while 13 y o u w e r e e m p l o y e d by C e r t a i n t e e d , w e r e yo u a w a r e t h a t 14 a n y o n e at a m a n a g e m e n t l e v e l , k n o w i n g w h a t wa s i m p a r t e d 15 to them by you, did they take any steps that you are 16 a w a r e of to t e l l C e r t a i n t e e d e m p l o y e e s t h a t t h e y m a y 17 h a v e a h e a l t h r i s k of c a n c e r and m e s o t h e l i o m a , b e c a u s e 18 o f t h e i r a s b e s t o s e x p o s u r e ? 19 MR . BRUCH : Obj ection. 20 MR. PAUL: Note my continuing 21 objection. 22 THE WITNESS: They may or may not, 23 but I was not aware of it. They did not give 24 me that i n f o r m a t i o n , that they did or did not. 25 -- ------------- - M R . P A U L : --- I w a n t to n o t e m y r K ni_pes-C ohen ~A ssociates Castleman.CERT000972 Leon Horowitz - Cross 89 1 2 MR . BRUCH : Go ahead. 3 MR. PAUL: I want to note my 4 c o n t i n u i n g o b j e c t i o n to this line of t e s t i m o n y 5 in the case a r i s i n g out of the C e r t a i n t e e d 6 p l a n t , w h i c h we r e p r e s e n t t he P la i n t i f f . 7 MR. COHEN: 8 Now, at any t i m e w h i l e -- w h i l e you w e r e 9 rking for Keasbey and Mattison/ I believe you 1 0 stified that you would have occasion to see raw 11 bestos coming into the Keasbey and Mattison plant; 12 i that correct? 13 . That i s cor r e c t . 14 Okay And/ that was c o n t a i n e d in what sort 1 5 1 6 wrappi ng? 17 E i t h e r p a p e r b a g g i n g or b u r l a p / m o s t l y p a p e r . And, at any t i m e w h i l e you were at K e a s b e y and 18 1 9 11 i s o n / di d yo u e v e r se e any sort of l a b e l on the 20 gs or any sort of l i t e r a t u r e c o n t a i n e d a l o n g with 21 e r a w a s b e s t o s t h a t s u g g e s t e d to t h o s e t h a t w e r e nd-ling the p r o d u c t that t h e r e might be a h e a l t h z a r d a s s o c i a t e d w i t h their h a n d l i n g o f t h e a s b e s t o s ? MR. GUSKY: Objection/ asked and a n s w e r e d . Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000973 Leon Horowitz - Cross 90 1 THE WITNESS: None that I remember. 2 3 BY MR . COHEN: Q)> 4 Now, w h i l e you were e m p l o y e d by C e r t a i n t e e d 5 C o r p o r a t i o n , did you have o c c a s i o n to see raw 6 a s b e s t o s c o m e in to t h a t p a r t i c u l a r p l a n t ? 7 A. The Certainteed plants? 8 Q. Yes . 9 A. Yes . 10 Q. Ag ai n, did you ever see any specific notice or w a r n i n g , w h e t h e r it was a f f i x e d to the p a c k a g i n g of 11 12 t h e r a w a s b e s t o s or in a n y o t h e r w a y , t h a t s u g g e s t e d a risk of ca n c e r o r me sot he l ioma to p e r s o n s 13 14 at C e r t a i n t e e d h a n d l i n g t h o s e raw a s b e s t o s b a g s ? 1 5 A. I did not. 16 q . Can you tell me whether C e rt ai nt ee d Co rp or a ti on 17 h a d a m e d i c a l d i r e c t o r at a n y t i m e t h a t yo u w e r e 18 e m p l o y e d by it? 19 A. None that I know of. 20 Q . do you know whether Certainteed utilized any p h y s i c i a n s at its f a c i l i t y at A m b l e r on a fee for 21 services basis? A. I don't recall any names. do you recall whet herthey used physicians, even though you may not recall their names? -- ----- ---------- ----- - _ K n ip e's-C oh en" A sso c"ia tes Castleman.CERT000974 1 Leon H o r o w i t z Cr o s s 91 2 A. I don't recall any contact with them. 3 |q . Now, with regard to the e x h i b i t s that were 4 r e v i e w e d y e s t e r d a y , I ' d l i k e to, if I m a y , d i r e c t 5 y o u r a t t e n t i o n - 6 MR. BRUCH: Mr. C o h e n , if I may 7 interrupt - 8 MR. COHEN: C e r t a i n l y , do you want 9 to go off the record? 1 0 MR. BRUCH: No, I think the 11 w i t n e s s was c o n f u s e d by your last q u e s t i o n , He's 12 p r e v i o u s l y t e s t i f i e d as to Dr. D o n a l d , you 13 may, who was fee for services for Certainteed 14 I thi n k he didn't u n d e r s t a n d your q u e s t i o n . 15 THE WITNESS: Well, I just didn't 16 remember. 17 M R . C O H E N : W h e t h e r he u n d e r s t o o d 1 8 it or not, or did not r e c a l l it at tha t t i m e 19 or for w h a t e v e r reason did not m e n t i o n it, 20 we can leave open for s p e c u l a t i o n , but now 21 that the - 22 MR. GALLO: We're not here to 23 speculate. Excuse me, go ahead. 24 MR. C O H E N : Now that the 25 m a t t e r has been b r o u g h t up, let me ask -- Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000975 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 92 2 HR. COHEN: 3 Mr. H o r o w i t z , do you recall the name of any 4 ys i ci a n who may have been utilized by C e rt a in te e d 5 irporation on a fee for services basis now that 6 unsel has brought that matter up? , 7 W e l l , as It e s t i f i e d b e f o r e , I k n e w of t h e n a m e , 8 jn a l d . I c a n n o t r e c a l l w h e t h e r it w a s w i t h K e a s b e y 9 id M a t t i s o n or w i t h C e r t a i n t e e d . 1 0 . 11 . Okay. B u t , t he n a m e , D o n a l d , is d e f i n i t e l y clear in 12 y mind . 13 . C a n y o u - - b e f o r e we g e t to t h e d o c u m e n t s , 'et ust ask, can you tell me, based on your work e x p e r i e n c e 14 e a s b e y - M a t t i s o n , which of the o p e r a t i n g p l a n t s did 1 5 16 ou c o n s i d e r to be the dusti e s t ? . 17 D u s t i e s t is a s u b j e c t i v e t h i n g , and it's a u b j e c t i v e a n a l y s i s . I w o u l d say, p l an t 4, w h i c h 18 reated -- which produced insulating - p i p e 19 20 nsu lat ing m a t e r i a l . 21 So, it w o u l d have b e en an a s b e s t o s c e m e n t pipe :aci l i t y ; am I c o r r e c t or n o t ? ^ No, that is not a s b e s t o s cement pipe f a c i l i t y , j, I'm sorry? T h a t is not an a s b e s t o s c e m e n t p i p e f a c i l i t y . Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000976 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 93 2 Okay. 3 It was a f a c i l i t y t h a t p r o d u c e d o t h e r 4 ypes of a s b e s t o s ins u l a t i o n ? 5 . A s b e s t o s c e m e n t p i p e is not an i n s u l a t i o n 6 aterial. 7 . 8 I understand that. Let me go back again, what func t i o n 9 as b e i n g p e r f o r m e d at t h a t p a r t i c u l a r p l a n t ? 1 0 MR. BRUCH: What plant are you 11 referring to? 12 MR. COHEN: Number 4, I believe. 13 THE WITNESS: The dustiest plant 1 4 t h a t I'm r e f e r r i n g to was t h a t pa r t of 1 5 p l a n t 4, w h i c h I c o n s i d e r e d a p l a n t w h i c h 1 6 produced more than one product. 17 iY M R . C O H E N : 18 S. What products were produced? 19 \m The product that I considered the dustiest was 20 the m a n u f a c t u r e of a m a g n e s i u m c a l c i u m s i l i c a t e w i t h 21 a s b e s t o s f i b e r s , i n s u l a t i o n c o v e r f o r p i p e , 22 a. Now, if I can ask you, Mr. H o r o w i t z , p o u l d you 23 t a k e a look at the E x h i b i t s w h i c h you b r o u g h t wit h 24 you y e s t e r d a y , a n d I'd like to r e f e r y o u s p e c i f i c a l l y 25 t o H o r o w i t z E x h i b i t # 1 , a n d if y o u w o u l d , y o u ' l l n o t e th, Knipes-Cohen A ssociates castieman.ctKiuuua// 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 94 2 it has a y e a r of 1 9 5 6 , a n d a q u e s t i o n m a r k on t h e r e , at 3 least my copy of that exhibit does. 4 A. I'm not sure I have it. Yes, I have it. 5 Q. 6 A. 7 Q. Can you tell me, is that your h a n d w r i t i n g ? Ah - The 1956 with the question mark. 8 A. T h e 1 9 5 6 q u e s t i o n m a r k is my h a n d w r i t i n g . 9 Q. 10 Okay. And, can you tell me why that year 11 w a s p u t in t h e r e b y y o u ? 12 A. The r e was no year written on it, and I wondered 13 to m y s e l f w h e n I r e v i e w e d t h i s , w h e n it wa s i s s u e d . 14 It wa s o b v i o u s l y p r i o r to my t i m e , b e c a u s e I was not 15 a w a r e of this, of this p r o p o s e d study. 16 q . B u t , can y o u t e l l me h o w it was t h a t y o u 17 s e t t l e d on t h e y e a r 1 9 5 6 , as o p p o s e d to 1 9 5 3 or 1 9 4 2 18 or -- 1 9 A. I don't know. I don't know. I had a question 20 m a r k . 21 Q. Now, did you read this document when you first 22 a r r i v e d at K e a s b e y - M a t t i s o n ? 23 A. I b e l i e v e I f o u n d it t h e r e or I got it f r o m 24 s o m e b o d y at the A s b e s t o s T e x t i l e I n s t i t u t e . 25 Q. Okay. -- -------------- -- -----------K--n-i-p-e-s---C-o:-h-e-n----A-s-s-o--c-ia--t-e-s-- Castleman:CtKIUUU9/8 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 95 2 Now, I would like t o - 3 A. And I did read it, yes. 4 Q. Okay. 5 I'd like to refer you to p o r t i o n s of 6 the f i r s t p a r a g r a p h w h i c h , in fact , let me just read 7 the f i r s t p a r a g r a p h , it s a y s , the r a p i d l y i n c r e a s i n g 8 e v i d e n c e of cancer of the lung -- 9 A. Incidence. 1 0 Q. I n c i d e n c e of c a n c e r of the lung has b e c o m e a 11 m a t t e r of c o n c e r n t o i n v e s t i g a t o r s in a l l b r a n c h e s of 12 h e a l t h , as well as to the g e n eral public. A l t h o u g h 13 it w o u l d a p p e a r to be i n e v i t a b l e t hat s o m e c a s e s w o u l d 14 d e v e l o p in a n y g r o u p of w o r k e r s , its o c c u r r e n c e in 15 persons who also had asbestosis has been specifically 1 6 no t e d by a n u m b e r of a u t h o r s over the past t w e n t y 17 y e a r s , t h e r e a f t e r , it c i t e s in p a r e n t h e s e s , the 18 n a m e s , L y n c h and S m i t h , A n g r e s t , D i s m u l e s , et a l , 19 C a r t i e r , G r o i n , M e r r i w e a t h e r , K e n n e w a y and K e n n e w a y 20 and Doll and o t h e r s , end p a r e n s . Do you have I 21 r e a d t h a t c o r r e c t l y ? 22 A. Yes, you have. 23 G). Doyouknow -- 24 MR. G A L L O : At this p o i n t , let me 25 note my o b j e c t i o n to your reading that portion ---------------------------- Knipes-Cohen A_ssCoacsitaletmesan.CERT000979 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 96 2 . and your emphasizing certain words. 3 MR . P A U L : Hr. Gallo - 4 MR. C O H E N : If I may -- I'm g l a d 5 that you're noting that objection, but since I 6 learned the p r a c t i c e from you y e s t e r d a y , Mr. 7 Gallo - 8 MR. G A L L O : No s p e e c h is n e c e s s a r y , 9 just note my objection. 1 0 MR . COHEN: Okay, well - 11 MR. GALLO: Continue with your 12 question. 13 MR. PAUL: I joiH in Mr. C o h e n ' s 1 4 o b j e c t i o n . Mr. Gallo taught us all how to 1 5 do that yesterday. 16 MR. GALLO: So, I had the witness 17 read portions. I did not read them myself. 18 M R . C O H E N : W e l l , it d o e s n ' t m a t t e r 19 whether the witness reads them under the rules 20 or w h e t h e r I do. 21 BY M R . C O H E N : 22 <5. Have I read the -- have I read that correctly? 23 A. 24 0 . The words were correct. yeah. Can you tell me, to your k n o w l e d g e , as of 1960, 25 o r any t i m e w h i l e y o u w e r e e m p l o y e d by K e a s b e y and -K--n--i-p--e--s---C---o-h--e--n-----A--s--s-o--c-i-a--t-e--s--- Castlem an .C ERT000980 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 97 2 . M a t t i s o n , do you know who Lynch and Smith were? 3 W e l l , Let me just ask, I'm s o r r y - 4 A. I know of a Lynch - 5 Q. -- Let me strike -- 6 A. -- who was in P u b L i c H e a L t h S e r v i c e , but I 7 d o u b t if it was he. 8 q. Let me withdraw that question and ask you, 9 can you tell me w h e t h e r you know who any of the p e o p l e 1 0 in the p a r e n t h e s i s , that are e n c L o s e d in the p a r e n t h e s i s 11 w e r e a s of 1 9 - - a s of a n y t i m e t h a t y o u w e r e e m p l o y e d 12 b y K e a s b e y a n d M a t t i s o n ? 13 A. The name Cartier and the name Doll would come 14 a c r o s s t he L i t e r a t u r e w h i l e I was e m p l o y e d w i t h 1 5 K e a s b e y - M a t t is on and s i n c e t h e n . 1 6 Q. And, who was Cartier, and who was Doll, as you 17 u n d e r s t o o d t h e m , w h e n y o u f i r s t saw t h e i r n a m e s in 18 t h e l i t e r a t u r e ? 19 A. Cartier, I believe, was from Canada, and Doll 20 f r o m E n g l a n d . 21 Q . Okay. 22 And, do you know what these 23 i n d i v i d u a l s d i d in t e r m s of t h e i r p r o f e s s i o n or / 24 b u s i n e s s ? 25 A. I know Doll w o r k e d in the area of ------- ------------------Castleman.CKERnTip00e0s9-8C1ohen A ssociates respiratory 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 98 2 . d i s e a s e . I'm not sure of what C a r t i e r did. 3 Q. Do you know w h e t h e r C a r t i e r or Doll were 4 physicians? 5 A. i'm not sure. They might be r e s e a r c h e r s . 6 Q. 7 Okay. In -- and o t h e r than t h o s e two 8 p e o p l e , you d o n ' t k n o w the n a m e s of any of 9 the others? 10 A . i don't know thenames of any of the o t h e r s . 11 Q . Okay. 1 2 Now, then as we d i s c u s s e d y e s t e r d a y , 13 H e u p e r of th e N a t i o n a l C a n c e r I n s t i t u t e in U . S . P u b l i c 14 H e a l t h S e r v i c e , h a s s t a t e d t h a t c a s e s of l u n g c a n c e r 15 superimposed upon asbestosis now number about a 16 h u n d r e d . L i k e m a n y of the a b o v e a u t h o r s , H e u p e r 17 r e f e r s to " a s b e s t o s i s c a n c e r " of the l u n g , a n d c l a i m s 18 a d e f i n i t e r e l a t i o n s h i p b e t w e e n t h e t w o c o n d i t i o n s . 19 Do y o u -- an d I b e l i e v e yo u s t a t e d y e s t e r d a y y o u r 20 k n o w l e d g e of w h o H e u p e r w a s , a m I c o r r e c t ? 21 A . i know the n a m e , a n d I've read it, some articles 22 by h i m . 23 q . Did you c o n s i d e r at t he t i m e y ou b e c a m e a w a r e 24 of t h e n a m e , C a r t i e r a n d D o l l , did y o u , in you r 25 e x p e r i e n c e , c o n s i d e r t h e m to be i n d i v i d u a l s wh o w e r e _ .------------- ------ :-- :-- :--K--n-i--p -e-s--C--o-h--en:-- A- sso cia tes Castleman.ctKiuuuy82 1 Leon Horowitz - C r o s s 99 2 k n o w l e d g e a b l e in the area of p u l m o n a r y d i s e a s e ? 3 A. Yes . 4 q. Now, the same q u e stion with regard to Heuper, 5 d id y ou c o n s i d e r H e u p e r to be k n o w l e d g e a b l e in the area 6 of r e s p i r a t o r y disease? 7 A. 8 q. Ves. A n d , do you know whether Heuper was a physician? 9 A. Ithoughthewas. 10 Q . Okay. 11 And, would you suggest or would you 1 2 st a t e that this i n f o r m a t i o n as we've just d i s c u s s e d 13 it, w a s e i t h e r -- was in c o n t r a s t -- let me s t r i k e 14 t h e w h o l e q u e s t i o n . 1 5 In y our o p i n i o n , was the i n f o r m a t i o n 16 t h a t w e ' v e j u s t d i s c u s s e d in a g r e e m e n t w i t h the i n f o r m a 17 t i o n Dr. K n o x i m p a r t e d to y o u , or was it d i f f e r e n t 18 t h a n w h a t Dr. K n o x was s a y i n g to y o u , d u r i n g y o u r 19 September meeting., September, 1960 meeting? 20 A. Mor e in a g r e e m e n t than not. 21 q . Now, at the -- at -- l o o k i n g at this p a r t i c u l a r 22 d o c u m e n t a g a i n it s t a t e s t h a t c e r t a i n i n d i v i d u a l s h a v e 23 n o t e d t h e r e l a t i o n s h i p of c a n c e r and a s b e s t o s i s o v e r 24 th e p a s t t w e n t y y e a r s . W e r e you a w a r e , p r i o r to 25 r e v i e w i n g t h i s d o c u m e n t , t h a t t h e r e was s c i e n t i f i c or .___________ ____ :-----------K--n-i-p-e-s---C--o--h-e-n--A-- s-s-o--c-ia--te--s- Casllemari.CERT000983 1 00 1 Leon Horowitz - Cross 2 . m e d i c a l l i t e r a t u r e twen t y years prior to t h i s * that 3 s u g g e s t e d a r e l a t i o n s h i p b e t w e e n a s b e s t o s is and 4 cancer? 5 A. I've t e s t i f i e d that I was not aw a r e of that 6 at all b e f o r e 1960. 7 Q. 8 Okay. Do you know -- " but* how did you first 9 b e c o m e a w a r e of th a t f a c t * is my q u e s t i o n ? 10 A. Reading articles like this. 0. T1 Do you r e c a l l , s p e c i f i c a l l y * w h e t h e r you learned 1 2 it f r o m r e a d i n g t h i s p a r t i c u l a r a r t i c l e or so m e o t h e r 13 a r t i c les? 14 A m i can't recall specifically which article was 15 the first article I read. 16 Q . 0 kay . 17 N o w * h a v i n g b e e n a p p r i s e d of the 18 c a n c e r and m e s o t h e l i o m a r e l a t i o n s h i p * or t h e b e l i e f 19 th a t t h e r e m ay be a r e l a t i o n s h i p by Dr. K n o x * h a v i n g 20 r e a d e i t h e r t h i s a r t i c l e or o t h e r a r t i c l e s w h i c h were 21 in a g r e e m e n t w i t h Dr. K n o x ' s s t a t e m e n t to y o u * c a n 22 you t e l l me* did y o u d e v e l o p in I 9 6 0 or 19 -- t h r o u g h 23 1 9 6 2 w h i l e y o u w e r e e m p l o y e d by K e a s b e y a n d M a t t i s o n 24 any b e l i e f that t h e r e m i g h t in fact be a v a l i d basis for the position that a person could contract ------------ ------------ --------------K---n--i-p--e-s----C--o--h--e-n- CaAstslesmocaina.CtEeRsT000984 1 Leon Horowitz - Cross 1 01 2 sneer b e c a u s e of a s b e s t o s e x p o s u r e ? 3 MR. GALLO: Objection, calls for 4 a medical opinion, calls for other opinion and 5 it's c o m p o u n d in form. 6 MR. BRUCH: I just object for any 7 q u e s t i o n s that have the word o p i n i o n in the 8 question and belief. 9 MR. COHEN: Well, I think the 1 0 witness' can state his o p i nion in the p o s i t i o n 11 he o c c u p i e d a s a n e n g i n e e r f o r *-~ i t ' s s t i l l 1 2 p i cking up, as an engineer for K e asbey and 13 M a t t i s o n , si n c e one of his r e s p o n s i b i l i t i e s , 1 4 okay, well, I'm just stating my position for 1 5 the record. 16 MR. COHEN: 17 Can you - 18 What are you tooking for? MR. COHEN: Okay, let's go off the 19 20 video for a second. 21 M R . S T E W A R T : W e ' r e n o w g o i n g off the 22 r e c o r d . T h e t i m e is 11 :4 2 . 23 MR. P A U L : I wan t to -- s i n c e w e ' r e 24 off the v i d e o , I want to make it cl e a r that 25 I'm g o i n g to h a v e s o m e a d d i t i o n a l q u e s t i o n s uni K nipes-C ohen A ssociates -------------------------------------------- ------------------ Caslleman.CERT000985 1 Leon Horowitz - Cross 102 2 . Mr. Cohen covers the questions that I have 3 resulting from the fact that there were documents 4 w h i c h were, in fact, part of the d e p o s i t i o n of 5 t h i s w i t n e s s in 1 9 8 0 , w h i c h all of y o u who w e r e 6 r e p r e sented got, but which the P l a i n t i f f s who 7 w ere n o t i c e d of this d e p o s i t i o n did not get. 8 MR. GALLO: You don't know that. 9 MR. PAUL: Which we just found out, 10 we just got this mo r n i n g . The d o c u m e n t that 11 was introduced yesterday, Exhibit 28, 12 r e f e r r e d to a r e p o r t , E x h i b i t 29, which we saw 13 yesterday and which Mr. Shein barely had a chance 14 to look at, but then I d i s c o v e r e d this morning 1 5 that there were yet othe r s . And I wish to object 16 to that on my -- for our P l a i n t i f f , to not having 17 been s u p p l i e d with this prior to that time. 18 M R . C R E E D O N : In l i g h t of t h a t , I h a v e 19 a statement. I'll have you know that I 20 r e c e i v e d a copy of the d e p o s i t i o n , and I had 21 no d o c u m e n t s w h a t s o e v e r at t a c h e d . So, that to 22 be c h a r a c t e r i z e d as b e i n g put in a p o s i t i o n of 23 h a v i n g s o m e d o c u m e n t s w h i c h w e r e not a v a i l a b l e to 24 Mr. Paul or any other Plaintiffs' counsel, I 25 o b j e c t to that s t a t e m e n t . -- -- ---------- -- --K--n-i-p-e-s---C--o-h--enCasAilsesmoacni7aCtEeRsT0UU986 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 103 2 And number two, any questioning 3 with regard to the d o c u m e n t s which were t u r n e d 4 o v e r t h i s m o r n i n g , if I can j ust h a v e a 5 c o n t i n u i n g o b j e c t i o n on the ground it's beyond 6 t h e s c o p e of t h e d i r e c t , so I d on 't i n t e r r u p t , 7 when you get to that point. 8 MR. COLEMAN: I agree, join with 9 Mr. C r e e d o n on b e h a l f of Celo t e x . 1 0 MS. GIBSON: I would also like to 11 say, it's my understanding that because certain 1 2 p a r t i e s w e r e n ' t r e p r e s e n t e d at the o t h e r 1 3 d e p o s i t i o n that is why we're t a k i n g a new 1 4 deposition. 15 MR. PAUL: I'll absolutely concede, 16 Ms. G i b s o n , t h a t it is b e c a u s e of o u r o b j e c t i o n 17 to t h e p r e v i o u s d e p o s i t i o n and to us not h a v i n g 18 bee n p r e s e n t at it, that this d e p o s i t i o n was t a k e n . H o w e v e r , a s' a r e s u l t of r e q u e s t m a d e of 19 20 the w i t n e s s at that d e p o s i t i o n , t h e s e are the 21 d o c u m e n t s , which were p r o d u c e d by you to other 22 c o u n s e l , and were not p r o d u c e d to us. 23 MS. GIBSON: I'm not aware of 24 what request you've made to either the witness 25 or Mr. Gal l o for d o c u m e n t s . ------------- -----------K---n--i-p--e-s----C--o--h--e-n----A---s-s--o-c--i-a--t-e-s- uastleman.ctKi0UU987 1 2 . 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 11 12 1 3 14 1 5 1 6 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 LeonHorowitz-Cross 104 MR. PAUL: No, he was r e q u e s t e d in the o r i g i n a l d e p o s i t i o n , it was r e p r e s e n t e d to us, that this d e p o s i t i o n and the a t t a c h e d exhibits were the deposition. Now, perhaps, it was r e p r e s e n t e d t hat was all Mr. G a l l o i n t e n d e d to .use , but it is a l s o c l e a r t h a t t h a t is n o t , in f a c t , the t o t a l d e p o s i t i o n . E x h i b i t s are not the total deposition, because these other d o c u m e n t s were p r o duced later. He may not have intended to use them, I a b s o l u t e l y w i s h to m a k e it c l e a r that I'm not s a y i n g that he m i s r e p r e s e n t e d to us that he was go i n g to use them. But, they were there, and they were not p r o v i d e d to us. I find that o b j e c t i o n a b l e . MR. GALLO: The deposi t i o n speaks for itself, what transpired before, I just i n c o r p o r a t e what I said to Mr. Cohen at the b e g i n n i n g in r e s p o n s e to you, Mr. Paul. MR. PAUL: Sure. I agree that you -- that you told us you were only going to use what you used in that d e p o s i t i o n . And t h a t ' s what we had. I still, h o w ever, object to the failure to prov i d e us with the other documents. MR. GALLO: I don't think I told you ------ ------------------K--n--i-p--e--s---C---o-h--e--n----A---s-s-o--c--ia--t-e--s----Castleman.CERT000988----- 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 1 05 2 that e i t h e r , but let's go. 3 MR. PAUL: T h a t ' s all I wish to 4 say f o r the r e c o r d at this po i n t . 5 MR. STEWART: We're now back on the 6 r e c o r d . T h e time is 11:47. 7 BY M R . C O H E N : 8 q. Mr. H o r o w i t z , my -- I b e l ieve my last q u e s t i o n 9 to you prior to going off the record was let me 10 ask, I'm sor r y , I t h o u g h t I was -- I r e m e m b e r e d the 11 q u e s t i o n , l e t m e a s k t h a t it be r e p e a t e d . 12 (Whereupon the court reporter read 13 back the p r e v i o u s q u e s t i o n by Mr. Cohen to 14 the witness.) 1 5 MR . MASON: I obj e c t . 16 MR. GALLO: Note my prior 17 objections. 18 MR. COHEN: All right, let me ask 19 the q u e s t i o n again, we we can edit this 20 p o r t i o n of the tape. 21 B Y M R . C O H E N : 22 q . Mr. Horowitz, having had the discussion with 23 Dr. K n o x t h a t w e ' v e g o n e o v e r b e f o r e , and h a v i n g 24 re a d t h i s p a r t i c u l a r a r t i c l e , H o r o w i t z E x h i b i t #1, 25 a n d o t h e r a r t i c l e s w i t h r e g a r d to m e s o t h e l i o m a and -- -- ---------- --- ----------K--n--ip--e-s---C--o-h-e-n---A- ssociates castieman.ctKiU0U989 1 Leon Horowitz - C r o s s - 106 2 cancer, did you form any belief with regard to the 3 v a l i d i t y of that p o s i t i o n , that a p e r s o n might 4 d e v e l o p cancer or m e s o t h e l i o m a b e c a u s e of a s b e s t o s 5 exposure? 6 MR. GALLO: Objection. 7 MR. MENDELOW: Objection. 8 MR. GALLO: Same basis as b e f o r e , 9 and also to the form. 1 0 T H E W I T N E S S : In s p i t e of th e a l l e g e d 11 r e s p e c t a b i l i t y of the p e r s o n s who w r o t e t h e s e 12 and g a v e t h i s i n f o r m a t i o n , it was new 13 i n f o r m a t i o n , a n d it was the p r a c t i c e of 14 i n d u s t r i a l h y g i e n i s t s , at least my own p r a c t i c e , 1 5 to wait until the industrial hygiene community 16 r e s p o n d e d to t h i s k i n d of i n f o r m a t i o n , but it 17 s u r e l y set my mind to t h i n k i n g that we do have a 18 pr o b l e m greater than I thought we had. 19 BY MR. C O H E N : 20 q . W e l l , w h e n you say it was n ew i n f o r m a t i o n , you 21 m e a n it w a s n e w t o y o u in 1 9 6 0 ? 22 A. T h a t ' s r i g h t . Y o u a s k e d ray r e s p o n s e , so it w a s 23 n e w i n f o r m a t i o n to me. 24 Q . Okay. 25 But, that does not -- but, you're not ------------- -- -------------K--n-i-p-e-s---C--o-h-e-n----A-s-s-o--c-ia--te--s- Caslleman.CERT000990-- 1 Leon Horowitz - Cross 107 2 . u g g e s t i n g t h a t it was n ew to the s c i e n t i f i c and 3 edical community, are you? 4 . Obviously, since the scientific community - 5 do n ' t want to be a r g u m e n t a t i v e , but since they did 6 ot react to it, who was I to react to it. 7 MR. GALLO: Objection. 8 Y MR. COHEN: 9 . Now, I b e l i e v e in your p r i o r d e p o s i t i o n on page 10 h i r t y - t w o , if I c a n ask you m a y b e to t u r n to th a t -- 11 . 12 . Exhibit 32? Page t h i r t y - t w o of your prior e x h i b i t . 13 . Oh, t he d e p o s it i on? 14 . Yeah, it's being han d e d to you. 1 5 ,. Oh, thank you. Mine opens another way. 16 Yes. 17 I. T h e r e 's a discus s i o n of why the year 1956 appears 18 n -- in h a n d w r i t i n g , a n d y ou s t a t e d at l i n e s 11 19 :h r o u g h 15 o f t h a t d e p o s i t i o n "I w a s c u r i o u s t o k n o w 20 /hen the first k n o w l e d g e of the h a z a r d due to a s b e s t o s 21 <as a v a i l a b l e , a n d in t h e r e p o r t , t h e y m e n t i o n 1 9 5 6 . I 22 j e l i e v e I put it t h e r e , b e c a u s e I d i d n ' t k n o w the d a t e 23 >f t h i s m e m o r a n d u m , so I j u s t p u t it t h e r e f o r m y o w n 24 i n f o r m a t i o n . 25 Did I correctly read your -- ---K--n--ip--e-s--C--o--h-e-n---A--s-s-o-c-i-a-t-e-s-- Castleman.CERT00099T 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 108 2 . Yes/ apparently/ now that I'm reminded/ that's 3 r o b a b l y w h y I did put it t h e r e . 4. . W e l l / let me ask y o u , is it -- was it y o u r 5 e s t i m o n y in J u n e of 198 0 that the first k n o w l e d g e of 6 he h a z a r d s d ue to a s b e s t o s was a v a i l a b l e in 1956? 7 . I was r e f e r r i n g to the s e c o n d page of that 8 x h i b i t / ' w h e r e they r e v i e w e d the r e s u l t s of p r e l i m i n a r y 9 urvey/ and they suggest -- they stated, during the 10 eeks of A p r i l 23rd and May 7th, 1956 - 11 THE COURT REPORTER: May 23rd and - 12 THE WITNESS: And May -- A u g u s t -- 1 3 April 23rd and May 7th, 1956, visits were made 14 to seven member* plants. That's the only 1 5 reference-- 16 MR. COHEN: Okay -- 17 BY M R . C O H E N : 18 Q. Okay, so, and I just want to c l a r i f y that with 19 you r t e s t i m o n y in June. 20 A . Yeah. 21 Q. The reason you put .1956 was because of the 22 m e n t i o n of the v i s i t a t i o n to c e r t a i n p l a n t s , as o p p o s e d 23 to a s t a t e m e n t tha t the f i r s t k n o w l e d g e of t h e h a z a r d 24 d ue to a s b e s t o s w as a v a i l a b l e in 1 956. 25 A . Ye s . --------------------- -- ----------------- -- -------------CaslleiT(HiT.CERT000992 " Knipes-Cohen Associates 1 Leon Horowitz - Cross 109 2 Q. Okay. 3 A. That's true. 4 Q* Now, t u r n i n g to that p a r a g r a p h on page two, 5 do you recall who the seven member p l a n t s of the 6 asbestos textile institute were that were examined? 7 A. Since this was a p u b l i c a t i o n prior to my joining 8 the c o m p a n y , I have no k n o w l e d g e of that, 9 i Did you a c q u i r e any k n o w l e d g e or i n f o r m a t i o n 1 0 iubsequent to your j o i ning K e a s b e y and M a t t i s o n that 11 l u g g e s t e d w h o t h o s e p l a n t s -- m e m b e r p l a n t s w e r e ? 1 2 k I do n ' t recall even being c u r ious eno u g h to 13 :i n d o u t . 14 I. N o w , w i t h r e g a r d to H o r o w i t z E x h i b i t ft - - I 1 5 lelieve i t ' s 2, it is e n t i t l e d P r o p o s e d I n d u s t r i a l 16 l y g i e n e P r o g r a m f o r all K & M p l a n t s . T h e c o p y I h a v e 17 lidn't i n c l u d e th e n u m b e r . Am I c o r r e c t on two ? 18 19 :Y M R . C O H E N : MS. GIBSON: That's right 20 . Do you have that? 21 . I'm sure I have it. Now, whet h e r I can find 22 t . I ha ve a c o p y of it in f r o n t of me. 23 . N o w , u n d e r 3B, it t a l k s a b o u t r e p l a c i n g o b s o l e t e 24 nd inadequate equipment. 25 . Yes. Knipes-Cohen A ssociates -Castlcman.CERT000993 1 Leon Horowi tz - Cross 110 2. q_ can y o u t e l l me w h e r e , in y o u r o p i n i o n , at 3 w h i c h f a c i l i t i e s at A m b l e r did t h e r e e x i s t o b s o l e t e or 4 i n a d e q u a t e e q u i p m e n t in terms of p r o d u c t i o n of a s b e s t o s 5 containing products? 6 A. P r i m a r i l y , in p l a n t 4. 7 q. And, that was the plantwhich producedasbestos 8 i n s u l a t i o n m a t e r i a l ; is th a t c o r r e c t ? 9 A. Correct. 10 q . A n d , can you tell me did the o b s o l e t e n e s s or 11 i n a d e q u a c y of t h e e q u i p m e n t r e s u l t in t h e g e n e r a t i o n 12 of a s b e s t o s dust b e y o n d t h o s e which you t h o u g h t were 13 p e r m i s s i b l e u n d e r e x i s t i n g s t a n d a r d s for the d e v e l o p m e n t 14 of a s b e s t o s i s ? A. 1 5 A c o r o l l a r y to t h a t w o u l d be if it w e r e b e t t e r , 16 it w o u l d i m p r o v e the dust c o n d i t i o n s . Now, my q u e s t i o n to you was, did the o b s o l e s c e n c e 17 of any m a c h i n e r y , or the inadequacy of any m a c h i n e r y 18 b e i n g u s e d in p l a n t #4 r e s u l t in t h e c r e a t i o n of d u s t 19 20 which e x c e e d e d what you b e l i e v e d to be the p r o p e r 21 s t a n d a r d o r - - n o t t h e w o r d s t a n d a r d , t h e p r o p e r g u i d e l i n e at that t i m e , with r e g a r d to the d e v e l o p m e n t of a s b e s t o s i s ? A. I'm t r y i n g to say that the q u e s t i o n is not s t a t e d in s u c h a w a y t h a t I c a n a n s w e r y e s or no. It is Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000994 1 Leon Horowitz - C r o s s 111 2 lot the c o n t r o l e q u i p m e n t that p r o d u c e s the d u s t . It's 3 :he m a c h i n e that does the p r o c e s s that , p r o d u c e s the 4 iust. S o / if you ask me w h e t h e r I b e l i e v e d that the 5 Jbsolescence of the dust control did not 6 :ontroL the dust that was p r o d u c e d at that m a c h i n e , 7 could answer the question. 8 I. Okay. 9 A nd, what w o u l d your a n s w e r be to 10 :h a t q u e s t i o n ? 11 >. It o b v i o u s l y - - o b v i o u s l y was o b s o l e t e and 1 2 n a d e q u a t e to c o n t r o l the dust at that o p e r a t i o n . 13 Now, with regard to Horowitz Exhibit # 3 , -- 14 I don't -- 1 5 -- it's e n t i t l e d Noteson Papers at13th 16 n t e r n a t i o n a l Congress on Occupational Health, 17 ell, I'm go i n g to go t h r o u g h them s e r i o t u m . 18 . I think I'm gettingthere. I believe I have 19 u m b e r 3, y e s . 20 . Okay. 21 Now, I'd like to refer you to the 22 e c o n d p a r a g r a p h u n d e r n u m b e r 8 , w h e r e it s t a t e s 23 about a hundred cases of pleura c a l c i f i c a t i o n were 24 o u n d in p a t i e n t s w i t h n o h i s t o r y of p l e u r a l d i s e a s e , anji 25 o o c c u p a t i o n a l e x p osure to dust. Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Xastleman:CE RT000995 1 Leon Horowitz - Cross 112 2 Do you see that p a r t i c u l a r 3 paragraph? 4 A. Yes. 5 9. Can you tell me -- 6 A. Y e s . 7 Q. Okay. 8 Can you tell me, did you read this 9 p a r t i c u l a r d o c u m e n t , f i r s t of a 11 ? 10 A. Did I read it, after I wrote it? 11 Q . 12 I 'm sorry, s t rike that , Can you tell me from what -- what was 13 the b a s i s of the i n f o r m a t i o n that you had t h a t c a u s e d 14 y o u to w r i t e t h i s d o c u m e n t , was it th e p r e s e n t a t i o n of 15 the papers on the International Congress solely? 16 A. Yes, yes. 17 Q . 18 A. Okay. It was r e p o r t i n g to my s u p e r i o r a b o u t the 19 m e e t i n g , r e l a t i n g to the m a t e r i a l s we were i n t e r e s t e d - 20 stuff we were i n t e r e s t e d in. ?1 Q . 22 Okay. And, when did thisCongress occur, 23 the 1 3 t h I n t e r n a t i o n a l C o n g r e s s , do yo u r e c a l l the 24 y e a r ? 25 A. I don't r e c a l l e x a c t l y . It h i n k it w a s ' 6 0 , ---:------------------------K--n--ip--e-s---C--o-h-e-n---A--s-s-o-c-i-a-t-e-s---- Castleman.CE RT600996-- 1 Leon Horowitz - Cross 113 2 |'61/ something like that. 2 ilq # You were still e m p l o y e d then by K e a s b e y 4 ||Mattison? 5 A, I was still e m p l o y e d by K e a s b e y and M a t t i s o n . 6 a Was this the first time that you were advised 7 ||t h a t t h e r e w e r e r e p o r t e d i n c i d e n t s of a s b e s t o s r e l a t e d 8 (disease in p e r s o n s who were not o t h e r w i s e o c c u p a t i o n a l l y 9 Ie x p o s e d to a s b e s t o s ? 1Q ||A . The information about South Africa was the first H ||t i m e / y e s . T h e y were not p e r s o n s , so much as also 12 ||a n i m a l s 13 a. Well, did that, based on your e x p e r i e n c e as industrial hygienist and dust control engineer, 14 an 15 [did that s u g g e s t a n y t h i n g to you with reg a r d to the 16 jpotent i a l of a s b e s t o s to cause d i s e a s e in the hu . a n 1 7 ||b o d y ? 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR . G A L L O : MR. BRUCH: MR. GALLO: Objection. Objection. I don't know that we still have a continuing objection. MR. COHEN: MR. GALLO: You do. Concerningnon-occupational exposure. MR. COHEN: You do. Knipes-Cohen Associates castleman.ctKiuuuyy/ 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 114 2 MR. GALLO: Okay. 3 MR. COHEN: Because, I think it's 4 all r e l e v a n t to his k n o w l e d g e as to a s b e s t o s 5 d i s e a s e , g e n e r a l l y / in his c a p a c i t y for 6 K e a s b e y and- M a t t is on. 7 . MR. BRUCH: I have that same 8 o b j e c t i o n - 9 T H E W I T N E S S : It b r o u g h t u p `t h e 1 0 p otential for that p ro b le m , yes. 11 MR . COHEN: Okay. 12 BY M R . COHE N : 13 Q. At that time -- or let me ask/ at any time 14 s u b s e q u e n t to r e a d i n g or p r e p a r i n g , r a t h e r , this 1 5 p a r t i c u l a r d o c u m e n t , were you made aware of any other 1 6 s t u d i e s or s c i e n t i f i c or fnedical w r i t i n g s c o n c e r n i n g 17 the d e v e l o p m e n t of a s b e s t o s is or c a n c e r or m e s o t h e l i o m a 18 in p e r s o n s w h o w e r e not o c c u p a t i o n a l l y e x p o s e d to 19 a s b e s t o s , but l i v e d in a n d a r o u n d p l a n t s w h e r e 20 a s b e s t o s was u s e d ? 21 A. What time period are you talking about? 22 J. At any time s u b s e q u e n t to your p r e p a r a t i o n 23 3f t h i s m e m o , while- y ou w e r e e m p l o y e d by e i t h e r 24 ( e a s b e y a n d M a t t i s o n , or C e r t a i n t e e d C o r p o r a t i o n . 25 There --------------- - were papers that referred to that, yes. Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000998 1 Leon Horowitz - Cross 11 5 2 Okay . 3 Can you recall, specifically, the 4 apers that you're talking about? 5 . I b e l i e v e , but I'm not sure t h a t it was the 6 o n f e r e n c e in 1 9 6 4 , some p a p e r s w ere p r e s e n t e d on 7 hat subject. 8 ;. Okay. 9 Wo u l d that be the S e l i k o f f c o n f e r e n c e 1 0 hat y o u ' r e s p e a k i n g of at the W a l d o r f ? 11 W e l l , y o u ' r e g i v i n g h i m a lot of c r e d i t . It 12 lasn't named the Selikoff conference, but -- 13 t. That's my term; 1 4 t. 1 5 l. That's your term, yeah - The c o n f e r e n c e that o c c u r r e d where Dr. Selikoff 16 las t h e s p e a k e r ? 17 . A c a d e m y of Science, 18 t. That's correct. 1 9 So, you found that information, similar 20 rypes of i n f o r m a t i o n at tha t c o n f e r e n c e ? 21 More i n f o r m a t i o n on the same subject, right. 22 MR. BRUCH: Well, I believe the 23 a n s w e r w a s , he b e l i e v e s t h a t he f o u n d it t h e r e . 24 MR. COHEN: Well, let me ask - 25 M R . B R U C H : -- I t h i n k the w i t n e s s ------- -------- -- -- -----K--n--ip--e-s---C-o--h-e-n---A--s-s-o-c--iates Casllemaii.CERT000999 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 1 16 2 s h o u l d t e s t i f y as to what he knows and not 3 what he believes. 4 !Y M R . C O H E N : 5 !. Is it y o u r r e c o l l e c t i o n that you r e c e i v e d this 6 ype of i n f o r m a t i o n at that c o n f e r e n c e ? 7 . T h e r e were p r o b a b l y two h u n d r e d p a p e r s given. An: 8 'm a l m o s t s u r e t h a t a f e w of t h e p a p e r s d i s c u s s e d 9 hat, one or two. I don't know. 1 0 . Now, did you br i n g to the a t t e n t i o n of the 11 a n a g e m e n t of C e r t a i n t e e d C o r p o r a t i o n or K e a s b e y and 12 attison Corporation, the fact that people who were 13 ot o c c u p a t i o n a l l y e x p o s e d to a s b e s t o s were c o n t r a c t i n g 14 iseases of the body? 1 5 MR.BRUCH: Objection. 16 THE WITNESS: I brou g h t to them 17 notes of my m eetings, and this was one of them. 18 A n d it -- th e i n f e r e n c e t h a t y o u a s k e d w h e t h e r 19 I got from this, they must have gotten from 20 that. 21 MR. PAUL: Note my continuing 22 objectibn-- 23 MR,. B R U C H : M o v e to s t r i k e t h e 24 answer. 25 MR. PAUL: -- to the use of this K nipes-Cohen A ssociates --------------------------------- -- -- -- --------------- -- Castleman P.FRTnnmnn 1 Leon Horowitz - C r o s s 117 2 p a r t i c u l a r line of t e s t i m o n y , a n y t h i n g having 3 to do w i t h t h e s e t y p e s of q u e s t i o n s in the 4 p a r t i c u l a r ca s e in w h i c h I r e p r e s e n t the 5 Plaintiff. 6 MR. BRUCH: My o b j e c t i o n goes to 7 the basis that this witness cannot testify 8 as to what i n f e r e n c e s other p e ople may have 9 r e c e i v e d or p e r c e i v e d , c annot t e s t i f y as to 1 0 the mental thinking of other people. 11 IY M R . C O H E N : 12 1 Well, Mr. Horowitz, did you provide the 13 l a n a g e m e n t of C e r t a i n t e e d C o r p o r a t i o n w i t h t h e 14 nformation you had learned regarding non --occupational 15 is e a s e d e v e l o p m e n t , as a r e s u l t of y o u r a t t e n d i n g 16 he A c a d e m y of S c i e n c e m e e t i n g in 1964? 17 . I can't be specific about that s ubject, but I 18 e p o r t e d on the m e e t i n g to -- to my s u p e r v i s o r , e v e r y - 19 hing that I thought was pertinent to our province. 20 . Okay. 21 Now, I'd like to refer you t o p a r a - 22 raph 9 of that same document, the second portion, 23 t s t a t e s "all t y p e s of a s b e s t o s , in p a r e n s c h r y s o t i l e , 24 roeidilite, amosite - 25 T H E COURT R E P O R T E R : In p a r e n s ? Knipes-Cohen A ssociates -Gastlcman.GERT001001 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 1 1 8 2 M R . C O H E N : In p a r e n s . O k a y , do 3 you ant to 4 BY MR. COHEN: 5 Q. It's all types of a s b e s t o s , p a r e n t h e s i s 6 chrysotile, crocidilite, amosite, end parenthesis, 7 m i n e d or p r o d u c e d in South A f r i c a - 8 A. Processed. 9 Q. P r o c e s s e d , I'm s orry, in South A f r i c a , can 1 0 p r o d u c e a s b e s t o s i s . A s b e s t o s i s has b e e n f o u n d in 11 p e o p l e n o t s u b j e c t e d t o i n d u s t r i a l e x p o s u r e s w h o w e r e 12 b o r n in the area of the m i n e s or t h o s e who t r a n s - 13 p o r t e d it, an d e v e n two n u r s e s who w e r e n e v e r -- 14 l o o k s l i k e o n e , n e v e r -- 15 A. That 's a m isprint 16 Q . Okay , never near the mines> end quote. 17 Is this the first time that you 18 m a d e a w a r e at t h e a t t e n d a n c e of t h i s c o n f e r e n c e t hat 19 all types of a s b esto s can p r o duce a s b e s t o s i s ? 20 A. Yes. Did you say the first time? 21 Q . Yes. 22 A. I c a n ' t r e c a l l w h e t h e r this is the f i r s t time. 23 I b e l i e v e m y - - I k n o w t h a t my u n d e r s t a n d i n g of 24 a s b e s t o s was a s b e s t o s p e r i o d . 25 Q. A n d , to y o u r k n o w l e d g e , was it o n l y a s b e s t o s Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT001002 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 119 2 tha t was m i n e d in South A f r i c a that c o u l d cause 3 asbestos is? 4 A. A s b e s t o s is a s b e s t o s . 5 1. So, your a n s w e r would be the same w h e t h e r the 6 isbestos was m i n e d in South A f r i c a or the D o m i n i o n 7 ifCanada? 8 . A s b e s t o s is a s b e s t o s . 9 ! Now, I w o u l d like you to look at H o r o w i t z 1 O Exhibit #5, which is a m e e t i n g of the A s b e s t o s 11 e x t i l e I n s t i t u t e d a t e d S e p t e m b e r 8 th and 9th, w h i c h 2 as p r e p a r e d on Septe m b e r 14th. 13 . I have a 4 and then I skip to a 6 . I think 14 he m e e t i n g s were separated. 15 Do you have the 5 there? 16 Thank you. Yes, go ahead. 17 . Y o u ' l l n o t e it s h o w s a M u l l i n s o n a p p e a r i n g 18 or the E n g l i s h A s b e s t o s Co m p any. 19 . Yes. 20 . Can you tell me what k n o w l e d g e you have of what 21 he E n g l i s h A s b e s t o s C o m p a n y is or was? 22 . I do n ' t r e m e m b e r it. 23 . Now, l o o k i n g at p a r a g r a p h 3, u n d e r the t o p i c , 24 i s c u s s i o n, it s t a t e s , a n d I'm l o o k i n g at the last 25 wo s e n t e n c e s , "it was agreed by all m e m b e r s present tha : K nipes-C ohen A ssociates ................................................................ ...... ............................ :--------------------- Castleman.CERT001003 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 120 2 Lower dust counts mean Lower occupation disease claims." 3 A. Yes. 4 Was t h e r e any d i s c u s s i o n at that p a r t i c u l a r 5 meeting that suggested that Lower dust counts might 6 me a n that Less e m p l o y e e s would get sick/ as o p p o s e d 7 to Less e m p l o y e e s would sue or file c o m p e n s a t i o n 8 claims? 9 A. The -- this statement connotes what you're 1 0 s a y i n g . It sa y s th a t t h e r e w o u l d n ' t be c l a i m s / 11 b e c a u s e t h e r e w o u l d be l e s s e x p o s u r e . 12 9. But/ was there any discussion that less 13 e x p o s u r e w o u l d a l s o be b e t t e r for the h e a l t h of 1 4 the e m p l o y e e s / as o p p o s e d to the fact that it was 1 5 go i n g to end up in less l a w s u i t s a g a i n s t the 16 c o m p a n i e s ? 17 MR. BRUCH: Object to that. 18 MR. COHEN: I'm certain you would. 19 MR. GALLO: Objec t i o n to the form. 20 I think it's unclear. - 21 THE W I T N E S S : The - 22 MR. COHEN: Okay, let me r e p h r a s e 23 24 BY MR the question. COHEN: 25 Q. Was there any d i s c u s s i o n at that p a r t i c u l a r Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT001004 1 2 . 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 M 11 1: 1 2 2 2 Leon Horowitz ~ Cross 121 m e e t i n g t h a t it a s b e t t e r for t h e h e a l t h of e m p l o y e e s to r e d u c e d u s t c o u n t s , as o p p o s e d to it ng b e t t e r f o r the C o r p o r a t e s t r u c t u r e , s i n c e it Id not be s u e d as o f t e n ? MR. BRUCH: Objection. THE WITNESS: Shall I answer that? MR. GALLO: Yeah. T H E W I T N E S S : In a m e e t i n g of industrial representatives, the discussion and the i m p e t u s b e h i n d d o i n g s o m e t h i n g is v e r y o f t e n money, and therefore, the discussion and the words used have to do with money. But, it's o b v i o u s t h a t if y o u r e d u c e the d u s t e x p o s u r e fro. five to two and a half, p r o t e c t i n g the h e a l t h of the that you are worker more. f MR. COHEN: . B u t / it -- . Th a t ' s an o b v ious answer, but not v e r b a l i z e d n t hat w a y . . B u t , w a s it d i s c u s s e d in t h o s e t e r m s , w a s it i s c u s s e d in t e r m s of a c o n c e r n for the w e l f a r e of he e m p l o y e e or a c o n c e r n for g r e a t e r d i s t r i b u t i o n ,f p r o f i t s t o s h a r e h o l d e r s ? MR. GALLO: O b j e c t i o n -- Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT001005 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 122 2 MS . GIBSON: O b j e c t i o n . 3 MR. CREEDON: Objection. 4 MR. GALLO: -- argumentative, asked 5 and answered. 6 TH E W I T N E S S : As an i n d u s t r i a l ' 7 h y g i e n e p e r s o n , no mat t e r whom I work for, 8 it is th e h e a l t h of the w o r k e r w e ' r e d i s c u s s i n g . 9 If t h e y c h o s e an d if I c h o s e to m a k e t h a t 10 s t a t e m e n t , it was to give i m p e t u s to the c o m pany 11 t h a t it was to t h e i r b e n e f i t m o n e y - w i s e to 12 also do w h a t e v e r they can to improve the health 13 of the worke r , they're c o r r e l a t e d statements. 14 MR. GALLO: I withdraw the objection. 15 BY MR. COHEN: 16 q . s o , if if y o u t h o u g h t it w o u l d be b e s t to 17 e x p r e s s it to t h e c o r p o r a t i o n in t e r m s of d o l l a r s and 18 c e n t s to t h e c o r p o r a t i o n t h a t y o u f o u n d t h e y w o u l d 19 u n d e r s t a n d ? 20 A. Very -- very often you get better reaction. 21 Q . 22 Okay. MR. G A L L O : O b j e c t and move to 23 strike. 24 BY M R . C O H E N : 25 Now, can I refer you now to H o r o w i t z E x h ibit #7. ------------------ --- -- ---K--n-i-p-e--s--C--o-h--e-n---A--s-s-o-c-i-a-t-e-s---Castleman:CERT00l005~ 1 Leon Horowitz - C r o s s 123 2 T H E W I T N E S S : H e r e is y o u r 5. . 3 Do you have a 7 there, Jim? 4 Thank you. 5 BY MR . COHEN: 6 Q. Now, can you tell me who a t t e n d e d the m e e t i n g 7 of the IHF in O c t o b e r of 1 9 6 0 / o t h e r than o b v i o u s l y 8 you? 9- A. Mr. Childs obviously wrote this, and I attended to t00 . 11 Q. 12 Okay. Can you tell me w h e t h e r any -- any 13 o t h e r a s b e s t o s m a n u f a c t u r e r s a t t e n d e d t h a t m e e t i n g 14 b e s i d e s K e a s b e y a n d M a t t i s o n tha t y o u can r e c a l l ? 1 5 A. I can't recall specifically. 1 6 Q. Do you k n o w w h e t h e r any of the m e m b e r s that 17 a t t e n d e d / e v e n t h o u g h y o u m i g h t n o t r e c a l l t h e i r n a m e s 18 w e r e m i n e r s of a s b e s t o s f i b e r ? 19 A . That, definitely, I cannot recall. 20 Q. Now, I'd like to refer you to p a r a g r a p h one. 21 s u b p a r a g r a p h d , f i r s t p a g e , w h i c h is u n d e r l i n e d . A n d 22 it s t a t e s / " P a n e l a g r e e d t h a t e v e r y e f f o r t s h o u l d be 23 t a k e n to k e e p a w o r k e r on t h e job/ c o n t r o l d u s t 24 h a z a r d s . / T h i s can and must be done r e s u l t i n g in 25 d e c r e a s e d c l a i m s . -------- -------- -- ---------K--n--ip--e-s---C--oh-e--n- --A-s-s-o-c-i-a-t-e-s--- CasllemairCERT001007 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 124 2 Have I correctly quoted that? 3 . Yes , you have. 4 . And , that was -- do you know why that 5 arti c u l a r s u b - p a r a g r a p h is u n d e r l i n e d as o p p o s e d t o 6 ny other paragraph? 7 MR. GALLO: Objection, he's not the 8 author of this document. 9 MR. COHEN: He still can have k n o w l e d g e , 1 0 even though he's not the author. 'll M R . G A L L O : O b j e c t i o n , n e v e r t h e l e s s . 12 Y o u ' r e asking him to i n t e r p r e t the i n t e n t i o n s 13 of the author. 14 M R . C O H E N : We d o n ' t k n o w if t h e 1 5 author did the underlining either. 16 MR. GALLO: That's right, I don't 1 7 knowthat. 18 MR. COHEN: Okay. 19 MR . C0HE N: 20 Do you have any k n o w l e d g e as to why that 21 r t i c u l a r p a r a g r a p h is u n d e r l i n e d a n d o t h e r s a r e 22 lot ? 23 1. I don't have any particular knowledge. I can 24 jive an o p i n i o n . 25 O k a y . S o , if y o u d o n ' t h a v e a n y k n o w l e d g e , t h e n . ----- ------------------- :------------------- -- ---Castleman.CERT001008-- Knipes-Cohen Associates 1 Leon Horowitz - Cross 125 2 'm n o t g o i n g to e x p l o r e t h a t . 3 Okay, can you tell me, again, whether 4 -- was t h e r e any a g r e e m e n t by the panel that r e d u c i n g 5 ust l e v e l s or c o n t r o l l i n g dust h a z a r d s w o u l d be 6 i e n e f i c i a l to t h e h e a l t h of t h e e m p l o y e e , w a s it 7 is c u s s e d in t h o s e s p e c i f i c t e r m s at t h a t m e e t i n g ? 8 *. That's the whole premise, the whole premise 9 if t h e d i s c u s s i o n is to p r o t e c t t h e h e a l t h of 10 he e m p l o y e e . 11 I. Well, would you show me where that i s - - where 12 : h a t ' s m e n t i o n e d as o p p o s e d to k e e p i n g an e m p l o y e e on 13 :he j o b as m u c h as p o s s i b l e , so i t ' s p r o f i t a b l e for 14 :he c o r p o r a t i o n , or t h a t it w o u l d r e s u l t in d e c r e a s i n g 1 5 c l a i m s a g a i n s t t h e c o r p o r a t i o n . Y o u s e e , t h a t it s a y s 16 : l e a r l y . C a n y o u s h o w me w h e r e w e l l in t h e m e m o , it 17 i i s c u s s e s s p e c i f i c a l l y , s i n c e it is so o b v i o u s that 18 :h a t is t h e r e a s o n t h a t a l l t h e s e c o n f e r e n c e s w e r e 19 o c c u r r i n g , b e c a u s e of c o n c e r n for the h e a l t h of the 20 mployee? 21 MR. BRUCH: O b j e c t i o n . I o b ject to 22 counsel testifying and interpretating the 23 document, which speaks for itself. 24 MR. GALLO: Also o b j e ction to the 25 a r g u m e n t a t i v e n a t u r e and c o m p o u n d n a t u r e of ------------- >....K..n.i.p.e.s.-.C..o.h..e.n...A..s.s.o.ci.a.t.e.s--- Castleman.CERT001009 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 126 2 thequestion. 3 MR. BRUCH: I think - 4 BY MR. COHEN: 5 Q. Mr. Horowitz -- 6 MR. GALLO: He has a l r e a d y a n s w e r e d 7 thequestion. 8 MR. C O H E N : W e l l , he ' s g o i n g to 9 ask - - he's going to answer the next q u e s t i o n 1 0 that I ask him, too. 11 B Y M R . C O H E N : 12 Q. C a n y o u t e l l me , s p e c i f i c a l l y , w h e r e it s a y s 13 t h a t t h e h e a l t h a n d w e l l b e i n g of the e m p l o y e e is the 14 r e a s o n w h y du s t s h o u l d be c o n t r o l l e d , as o p p o s e d to 1 5 k e e p i n g the e m p l o y e e on the job as long as p o s s i b l e , and 16 r e d u c i n g c l a i m s w h e t h e r t h e y ' re l a w s u i t s or c o m p e n s a t i o n 17 a g a i n s t the c o r p o r a t i on? 18 MR . GALLO : Objection to the form. 19 MR . BRUCH : Same objection. 20 M R . C R E E DO N: O b j e c t i o n . 21 THE WIT NESS : Do you want me to a n s w e r 22 that or not? 23 MR . COHEN: I certainly do. 24 T H E W I T N E S S : It is my u n d e r s t a n d i n g 25 on a s t a t e m e n t like t h i s , and t h i s is all I can K nipes-C ohen A ssociates ---------- :-----------:------------------------- ---------:--------- Castieman-:CERT00-101-0 1 Leon Horowitz - Cross 127 2 g i v e it to y o u , b e c a u s e I did not w r i t e t h i s , 3 w h e n a s t a t e m e n t L i k e t h a t is m a d e , an d it is 4 my u n d e r s t a n d i n g as an industrial hygiene 5 engineer that the company must make every 6 e f f o r t to i m p r o v e the dust c o n d i t i o n s in such 7 a w a y t h a t it w o u l d be s afe and h e a l t h y for 8 the w o r k e r , and that t h e r e w o u l d be no n eed 9 to c h a n g e the. job. It had n o t h i n g to 1 0 do w ith s a v i n g m o n e y . If s a v i n g m o n e y -- well, 11 as an a s i d e , if s a v i n g m o n e y had to do, s o m e t i m e s 12 it c o s t s m o r e to r e m o v e a p e r s o n f r o m a job. 13 S o , I d o n ' t k n o w t h a t t h a t is -- t h a t ' s a 14 c o n c l u s i o n you or somebody else has m a d e , t h a t 1 5 m o v i n g f r o m a job is s a v i n g m o n e y . I d o n ' t - - 16 I d o n ' t see any w h e r e w h e r e it says that we will 17 save m o n e y by doing that. 18 BY MR . C O H E N : 19 Q . W e l l , if y o u ' r e not s u e d b e c a u s e of it, d o e s n ' t 20 t h a t s a v e y o u m o n e y ? 21 MR. BRUCH: Objection. 22 MS. GIBSON: Objection. 23 MR. GALLO: Objection. 24 THE WITNESS: They don't say anything 25 like that. K nipcs-C ohen A ssociates - -----------------------------------------------------------------------6astfeman.CERT001011---- 1 Leon Horowitz - Cross 128 2 BY MR . COHEN: 3 Q. It s a y s , m u s t be d o n e r e s u l t i n g in d e c r e a s e d 4 claims. 5 A. A g a i n / t h i s is a k i n d of a s t a t e m e n t t h a t g i v e s 6 impetus to -- 7 Q. So, w h a t y o u ' r e s a y i n g is that m o n e y is a 8 factor? 9 MR.GALLO: Objection. - 10 T H E W I T N E S S : M o n e y is a l w a y s a 11 factor. 12 MR. GALLO: You're arguing with the 13 w i t n e s s now, and I o b j e c t to t h i s w h o l e line of 14 q u e s t i o n i n g on a further ground that you've 1 5 misled the Jury and the witness by implying 16 that t h e r e is no such s t a t e m e n t d i r e c t e d to 17 the c o n c e r n for w o r k e r health in this d o c u m e n t , 18 when-- 19 MR. COHEN: Well - 20 MR . G A L L O : -- thi s is c l e a r l y 21 an u n d e r l i n e d s t a t e m e n t on page - 22 MR. COHEN: -- excuse me - 23 MR. GALLO: -- I'm not finished. 24 MR. COHEN: No, well, you ' r e 25 finished, because I'm asking you can bring that, ------------------K-n--ip--e-s---C--o-h-e-n---A--s-s-o-c--ia-t-e-s---- Castleman.CERT001012 1 Leon H o r o w i t z - C r o s s 129 2 if t h e r e is such a s t a t e m e n t , and Let me 3 f i n i s h w i t h the d o c u m e n t b e f o r e you o b j e c t to 4 it, if y o u ' r e g o i n g to refer to s o m e w h e r e 5 o t h e r t h a n w h e r e I'm at now. O k a y ? 6 MR. GALLO: Well, I think that you 7 s h o u l d give the w i t n e s s a c hance to read the 8 entire document, including page two, paragraph 9 3A . 10 MR. COHEN: That's exactly what I've 11 got u n d e r l i n e d to go into n e x t , o k a y , so m a y b e 12 I can mute your objection. 13 BY MR . C O H E N : 14 Q . 1 5 Now, - MR. GALLO: My other o b j e c t i o n still 16 stands as to the form of the q u e s t i o n . 17 MR. COHEN: I understand that. 18 B Y M R . C O H E N: . 19 Q. Now, l e t ' s loo k at p a r a g r a p h 3A, Mr. C h i l d s is 20 s t a t i n g th e r eal i s s u e , an d u n d e r l i n e s t h e w o r d is 21 u n d e r l i n e d in m y c o p y of t h e e x h i b i t , w h i c h i n d u s t r y 22 a n d i n d u s t r i a l r e l a t i o n s m u s t f a c e a n d a c c e p t is t h e 23 c o n c e r n of the i n j u r e d e m p l o y e e , a n d his f a m i l y . 24 I n d u s t r y , in g e n e r a l , d o e s not t a k e t h i s a p p r o a c h . 25 It d o e s n o t i n v e s t i g a t e f u l l y a n d p r o m p t l y , a n d it m u s t K nipes-C ohen A ssociates -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Castlemair.CERT00-TG1-3-- 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 130 2 accept this responsibility. 3 Have I correctly read that portion? 4 A. Yes, you have, part of the p a r a g r a p h . 5 Q. To the extent that I have read it? 6 A. That's right. 7 Q. Is th e r e a n y t h i n g that you w o u l d like me to 8 read b e y o n d that so the Jury does not b e l i e v e that there 9 is s o m e t h i n g that I'm i n t e n t i o n a l l y o m i t t i n g that 1 0 might be improper? 11 MR. GALLO: 12 MR. BRUCH: I object to that question. I don't believe that's 13 a question. 14 M R . C O H E N : Is t h e r e -- o k a y . 15 BY MR. COHEN: 1 6 Q. Have I correctly read what I've -- what I've 17 j u s t s t a t e d ? 18 A. Yes, you have. 19 Q . W o u l d you a g r e e or d i s a g r e e with Mr. C h i l d s 20 w r i t i n g in t h i s p a r t i c u l a r p a r a g r a p h w i t h r e g a r d to 21 t h e a t t i t u d e of i n d u s t r y - 22 MR. CREEDON: Objection. 23 MR. GALLO: Objection, you're calling 24 for his opinion. 25 MR. C O H E N : T h a t ' s r i g h t , b e c a u s e he K nipes-Cohen A ssociates -- ---------------------------------------------------------Castleman.CERT00T0T4-- 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 131 2 was an individual that had a certain r e s p o n s i 3 bility and performed certain work, for both 4 Keasbey and Mattison and Certai nteed Corporation. 5 I t h i n k it b e a r s d i r e c t l y . 6 MR. GALLO: Objection, beyond the 7 scope. 8 MR. BRUCH: Same objection. 9 THE W I T N E S S : Do I a n s w e r the 1 0 question? 11 MR. COHEN: Yes. 12 T H E W I T N E S S : What is the q u e s t i o n ? 13 BY M R . C O H E N : 14 Q. The q u es ti on is, did you share the opinion 15 e x p r e s s e d in t h i s d o c u m e n t , as w e ' v e j u st d i s c u s s e d 16 it? 17 A. Thi s is -- was a p u b l i c or i n d u s t r i a l r e l a t i o n s 18 t y p e of a r e p o r t of i n d u s t r i a l r e l a t i o n s t y p e of a 19 m e e t i n g , a n d it d o e s n o t r e l a t e , r e a l l y , to my f u n c t i o n 20 as an i n d u s t r i a l h y g i e n e e n g i n e e r wh o s e p r i m a r y f u n c t i o n 21 is t h e p r o t e c t i o n a n d h e a l t h of t h e w o r k e r . 22 Q. Well, how about when you were hired by C e r t a i n - 23 t e e d C o r p o r a t i o n , a n d y o u b e c a m e an i n d u s t r i a l 24 h y g i e n i s t a n d h a d t h a t r e s p o n s i b i l i t y ? 25 A. The r e s p o n s i b i l i t y was still limited to the ----------------------- -- -- ------------------------------ -- -- Castlcman.CERT0Q1Q15 Knipes-Cohen Associates 1 Leon Horowitz - C r o s s 132 2 p r o t e c t i o n and h e a l t h of the worker. 3 Q. But/ what I'm s t a t i n g is, with r e g a r d to the 4 a t t i t u d e that was e x p r e s s e d by Mr. C h i l d s / did you 5 a g r e e or d i s a g r e e wi t h th a t at the ti m e you w e r e 6 working for Certainteed Corporation? 7 MR. BRUCH: I think that's already 8 been answe red . 9 MR. CREE DON: Objection. 1 0 . MR. COLEMAN: Objection. 11 THE WITNESS: I think it's a political 12 t y p e of q u e s t i o n and an e c o n o m i c t ype of 13 question. 14 MR. STEWART: Excuse me, gentlemen. 1 5 T h i s c o n c l u d e s t a p e n u m b e r s e v e n of the 1 6 v i d e o t a p e . T h e t i m e is 1 2 : 1 7 . 17 Thi s is the b e g i n n i n g of v i d e o t a p e 18 n u m b e r e i g h t . T h e ti m e is 1 2 : 2 8 . 19 BY MR. COHEN: 20 Q. O k a y , Mr. H o r o w i t z , if you w o u l d , I w o u l d like 21 y o u t o t a k e a L o o k at E x h i b i t -- I ' m s o r r y a g a i n , i t ' s 22 -- I t h i n k it's H o r o w i t z 13. 23 A. I have that. 24 Q . Okay . 25 Am I correct that's dated June 12th, Knip es-Cohen A ssociates ----------------------- -- -------------------------------------- ---------- -- Castleman.CERT001016 1 Leon Horowitz - Cross 133 2 1961? 3 A. June 12th/ 1961. 4 Q. Okay. 5 Refer you to the fourth p a r a g r a p h 6 of that report of the A s b e s t o s T e x t i l e I n s t i t u t e 7 M e e t i n g / w h e r e it s t a t e s / an d I q u o t e / " T h e B r i t i s h 8 and South Africans have associated lung cancer with 9 a s b e s t o s is s i n c e 1935. T h i s r e l a t i o n s h i p has been 1 O the s u b j e c t of s o m e d i s c u s s i o n in t h e U . S . o n l y in 11 r e c e n t y e a r s w i t h o p i n i o n s p r o a n d c o n / b a s e d on 12 i n c o n c l u s i v e d a t a and s t a t i s t i c s . " 13 Have I read that correctly? 14 A. 1 5 Q. You read it c o r r e c t l y . Now/ a g a i n , w e r e y o u e v e r a d v i s e d w h a t it was 16 in the B r i t i s h or S o u t h A f r i c a n e x p e r i e n c e that 17 c a u s e d t h e m , as far b a c k as 1 9 3 5 to a s s o c i a t e lung 18 c a n c e r w i t h a s b e s t o s e x p o s u r e ? 19 MR . GALLO: O b j e c t i o n to the form. 20 W h e n y o u say. w e r e y o u e v e r a d v i s e d , if y o u ' r e 21 talking about post 1968, I object. 22 MR . COHEN: Okay. 23 MR . GALLO: Are you? 24 BY MR . C O H E N : 25 Q. Were you ever 0 ----------------------------- Castleman.CERT001017 Knipes-Cohen Associates 1 Leon Horowitz - Cross 134 2 A. I was advised that the medical programs for 3 the c o n t r o l of the h e a l t h of the w o r k e r s b oth in A f r i c a 4 and in E n g l a n d were more i n t e n s i v e and more c o n t r o l l e d 5 t h an in the U n i t e d S t a t e s , and as a re s u l t of t h a t , were 6 able to g a t h e r s t a t i s t i c s a little better. 7 Q. 0kay . 8 Now, can I ask specifically who 9 advised you of that -- or those factors, and when? 1 O A. I c a n ' t t e l l y o u w h o it w a s . I p i c k e d it 11 up in t h e l i t e r a t u r e or at a m e e t i n g or s o m e t h i n g 12 like t h a t . 3 Q. Were you ever advised that there was any sharing 14 of i n f o r m a t i o n b e t w e e n any of the B r i t i s h m e d i c a l and 15 scientific community and any companies who mined 16 a s b e s t o s ? 17 MR . MASON: Objection. 18 THE WIT N E S S : Between the British 19 C o m p a n i e s and the m i n i n g c o m p a n i e s , is that 20 it? 21 MR . C O H E N : No -- 22 T H E W I T N E S S : Is that the q u e s t i o n ? 23 M R . COHEN: -- no, let me r e p h r a s e 24 the quest ion. 25 THE WITNESS: Yeah. Knip es-Cohen A ssociates Gastlcman.CERT001018 1 Leon Horowitz - C r o s s 135 2 BY MR. COHEN: 3 Q. Were you ever advised that the British 4 e x p e r i e n c e , as w e ' v e just d i s c u s s e d it, was s h a r e d 5 b e t w e e n m e m b e r s of the B r i t i s h s c i e n t i f i c and medica l 6 c o m m u n i t y w ith o t h e r c o m p a n i e s or c o r p o r a t i o n s that 7 mined asbestos? 8 M R . M A S O N: O b j e c t i o n . 9 MS . GIBSON: O b jection. 1 0 MR . GALLO: Objection. 11 M R . C R E E DO N: O b j e c t i o n . 1 2 T H E W I T NE S S : I h a v e no k n o w l e d g e 13 that effect. 14 BY MR . C O H E N : 1 5 Q. Now, I w o u l d like to refer you to page two of 16 t h a t m i n u t e , a g a i n , w e ' r e s til l on E x h i b i t #13. An d , 17 am I c o r r e c t that Dr. S m i t h s p o k e at that p a r t i c u l a r 18 A T I m e e t i n g ? 1 9 A. Not at that p a r t i c u l a r m e e t i n g , I d o n ' t b e l i e v e . 20 He is not s h o w n as b e i n g in a t t e n d a n c e . I t h i n k 21 r e f e r e n c e is m a d e t o a -- a d i s c u s s i o n a b o u t m e e t i n g s 22 that he had w ith o t h e r p e o p l e , but I don't th i n k he was 23 at th a t m e e t i n g . 24 Q . Okay. I'm not sure. / 25 --------------- Let me ask you, did you ever speak with ----------------------------------- Castleman.CERT001049--- Knipes-Cohen Associates 1 Leon H o r o w i t z - Cross 136 2 D r . S m i t h / while you were e m p l o y e d by eit h e r K&M, 3 K e a s b e y and Matt i s o n or Certai n t e e d ? 4 A. Briefly/ yes. 5 Q. Okay. 6 A n d w h e r e a n d u n d e r w h a t ci r c u m s t a n c e s 7 d i d y o u s p e a k wi t h h i m ? 8 A. At one of th e s e m e e t i n g s . 9 Q. And/ what was the s u b j e c t of your c o n v e r s a t i on 10 with regard t o - - 11 A. As a lay pers o n / I -- m e d i c a l l y , I was curious 12 t o k n o w w h e t h e r the ski LI, s k i l l s of the p h y s i c i a n s 1 3 in g e n e r a l w e r e c a p a b l e of d i a g n o s i n g a s b e s t o s i s . 14 Q . And/ what did Dr . Smith tell you? - 1 5 MR. CREEDON: Objection. 1 6 THE WITN E S S : He said there were not 17 too many doctors who really can recognize 18 a s b e s t o s i s at th a t t i m e . 19 BY M R . C O H E N : 20 Q. Did Dr. Smith have any d i s c u s s i o n with you 21 a b o u t h i s o w n p e r s o n a l w o r k f o r J o h n s - M a n v i l l e 22 C o r p o r a t i o n ? 23 MR. CREEDON: Objection. 24 THE W I T N E S S : I didn't go into that 25 kind of d i s c u s s i o n with him. Gastlcman.CERT001020 Knipes-Cohen Associates 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 137 2 BY M R . C O H E N : 3 Q. Now, I w o u l d like to ask you to look at p a g e 4 two, and I'm sorry again, my copy does not have the 5 exhi b i t numb e r , it's dated September 12th, 1961, that 6 is t he d o c u m e n t . I d o n ' t know - 7 MS. GIBSON: 14, I think. 8 MR . COHEN: I 'm sorry? 9 MS . GIBSON: 14, I think. 1 0 MR. COHEN: 14, okay. 11 . _ THE W I T N E S S : I do n ' t t h i n k I have it. 12 Do you have it, Jim? I really messed these 13 up, d i d n ' t I? 14 Okay. 15 BY M R . C O H E N : 1 6 0. N o w , I w o u l d l i k e y o u to l o o k at' p a g e 2 , t h e 17 last p a r a g r a p h , w h i c h is n u m b e r e d f i v e . A n d , it s a y s , 18 and I q u o t e , " T h e a s b e s t o s i n d u s t r y w o u l d get the 19 maximum -- 20 A. I don't have that same thing. 21 MS . G I B S O N : H e ' s not b e g i n n i n g at 22 the first, sentence. 23 . THE WITNESS: Page two? 24 MR. COHEN: Page two. I'm sorry, 25 p a r a g r a p h five. I'm reading -- I'm sorry, I'm K nipes-C ohen A ssociates -------------------------------------------------------------------------:------- Gastleman.GERT001021 1 Leon'Horowitz- Cross 138 2 r e a d i n g from the m i d d l e of the p a r a g r a p h . 3 THE WITNESS: Exhibit 14? 4 MR. COHEN: Right. 5 THE WITNESS: Are you- reading from 6 the mi d d l e of the p a r a g r a p h ? 7 MR. COHEN: Yes. 8 THE WITNESS: Okay. 9 BY MR. COHEN: 1 0 Q. States "The asbestos industry would get the 11 m a x i m u m c o o p e r a t i o n , w h i c h t h e y w o u l d n o t e n j o y w i t h 12 the m a n y S t a t e a g e n c i e s . " 13 Can you tell me, Mr. Horowitz, what 14 information or what knowledge did you have available 1 5 tha t w o u l d s u g g e s t t h a t if t h e U n i t e d S t a t e s P u b l i c 16 H e a l t h S e r v i c e w e r e to c o n d u c t s u r v e y s of m a n u f a c t u r i n g 17 f a c i l i t i e s of a s b e s t o s c o m p a n i e s , t h a t y o u w o u l d be 18 t r e a t e d b e t t e r t h a n y o u w o u l d if S t a t e a g e n c i e s d i d it? 1 9 MR. BRUCH: Objection. 20 THE WITNESS: It's your interpretation 21 about t r e a t m e n t , the q u e s t i o n there r e f e r r e d to 22 the fact that no one S t a t e had the f a c i l i t i e s to 23 do this type of study in a fair and u n b i a s e d 24 m a n n e r , as equal to the U.S. Publ i c Health 25 S e r v i c e . And that is why all -- e v e n t u a l l y , all K nipes-C ohen A ssociates ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Castleman.CERT001022-- 1 Leon Horowitz - Cross 139 2 in a g r e e m e n t that the best u n b i a s e d s t u d y would 3 be done by the Public Health Service. 4 3 Y MR. COHEN: 5 W e l l , it d o e s n ' t -- let me a s k , w h a t -r w h a t 6 ioes the U.S. P u b l i c H e a l t h S e r v i c e have a v a i l a b l e to 7 it, t h a t for i n s t a n c e the C o m m o n w e a l t h of P e n n s y l v a n i a 8 lid n o t h a v e a v a i l a b l e to it, as of S e p t e m b e r of 9 1961, did they use the same equipment? 1 0 They had analytical equipment worth almost a 11 t u n d r e d t i m e s w h a t t h e P e n n s y l v a n i a w o u l d h a v e h a d . 12 I- T h a t may be i n s o f a r as q u a n t i t y of e q u i p m e n t , 13 >ut in o t h e r w o r d s -- 14 ` . As far as s o p h i s t i c a t i o n of the e q u i p m e n t . 1 5 6 IY M R . C O H E N : MR. GALLO: Objection. 17 i. Is it y o u r t e s t i m o n y t h a t the r e g u l a t i n g 18 g d n c i e s in t h e C o m m o n w e a l t h of P e n n s y l v a n i a w o u l d n o t 19 e c a p a b l e of g o i n g i n t o an a s b e s t o s m a n u f a c t u r i n g 20 lant and a c c u r a t e l y m o n i t o r i n g or s u r v e y i n g the 21 la n t ? 22 . No, no . 23 . Okay. 24 The U.S. Public Health Service was a research 25 y p e o f o r g a n i z a t i o n , and n o n e of the s t a t e s had a r e s e a r Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT001023 1 LeonHorowitz-Cross 140 2 type of o r g a n i z a t i o n for i n d u s t r i a l h y g iene. 3 Q. B ut, all you w o u l d be a c c u m u l a t i n g w o u l d be 4 e m p i r i c a l d a t a , w o u l d it not -- w o u l d y o u n o t ? 5 A. Right, and the States would not. They just 6 do n ' t have the p e r s o n n e l or mo n e y to do that. 7 Q. W e l l , do you k now that of your own k n o w l e d g e ? 8 A. I know that of my own k n o w l e d g e , yes. 9 Q. D i d y o u k n o w t h a t as of 1961 w i t h r e g a r d to 1 0 the C o m m o n w e a l t h of P e n n s y l v a n i a ? 11 A. I knew that with regard to every State that I 12 k n e w of. 13 Q, Do y o u k n o w it s p e c i f i c a l l y , w h a t i n f o r m a t i o n 14 did y o u h a v e r e g a r d i n g the C o m m o n w e a l t h of P e n n s y l v a n i a ? 1 5 A. My contact with the industrial hygienistsin 16 P e n n s y l v a n i a . T h e y w e r e no d i f f e r e n t , in f a c t , p e r h a p s 17 less c a p a b l e t h a n the -r t h a n the D i v i s i o n of I n d u s t r i a l 18 H y g i e n e in New Y o r k , w h e r e I w o r k e d . An d t h e y w e r e not 19 c a p a b l e of d o i n g t h i s t y p e of s t u d y . 20 9. Well, the statement does not state that the Public 21 H e a l t h S e r v i c e is b e t t e r e q u i p p e d to p e r f o r m t h a t 22 work, or that they m i g h t get b e t t e r or more a c c u r a t e 23 i n f o r m a t i o n , it is t h a t y o u c a n get t h e m a x i m u m 24 c o o p e r a t i o n . Now, I'd like to f o c u s y o u in on the w o r d . 25 c o o p e r a t i o n , and ask y o u wha t the w o r d m e a n t as you ------------------------------- Knip *------------ ;e--s---C---o-h---e-n----A---s-s--o-c--i-a--t-e-s------ Castleman.CERT001024 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 141 2 u t i l i z e d it t h e r e ? 3 MR. GALLO: O b j e c t i o n to the form. 4 THE WITNESS: Well, before I answer 5 that, they also say they have the money and 6 t r a i n e d p e r s o n n e l to e s t a b l i s h the truth c o n c e r n 7 ing a s b e s t o s and its relation to lung disease. 8 MR . COHEN: Right. 9 T H E - W I T N E S S : T h a t is the e m p h a s i s of 1 0 it. The c o o p e r a t i o n to go, first of all, not 11 e v e r y S t a t e had an i n d u s t r i a l h y g i e n i s t , so, 12 at that time. 13 BY MR . C O H E N : 14 Q . Let me n a r r o w my q u e s t i o n to the C o m m o n w e a l t h 15 o f P e n n s y I v a n i a o n l y . 16 A. Yes. 17 Q . 18 A . 19 Q . Okay. Right. Now, let me ask you again, what did you mean 20 w hen you said that the a s b e s t o s i n d u s t r y w o u l d - g e t the 21 m a x i m u m c o o p e r a t i o n f r o m U . S . P u b l i c H e a l t h S e r v i c e ? 22 A. Well, y ou may mean to limit your q u e s t i o n to 23 th e S t a t e of P e n n s y l v a n i a , but t h e s e i n d u s t r i e s 24 c o v e r e d t h e w h o l e c o u n t r y . 25 Q . 0 kay . K nipes-C ohen A ssociates --------------------------- :----------------------------------------------------- Gastleman.GERT001025 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 142 2 A. And/ they were not r e s p o n d i n g to only the 3 c o m p a n i e s in P e n n s y l v a n i a . The -- just -- there was 4 no even q u e s t i o n that a State could do this type of 5 work. It's not a research - - they don't do research 6 work, at that time. 7 Q. B u t / do y ou s t a t e a n y w h e r e in t h a t p a r a g r a p h 8 that the F e d e r a l G o v e r n m e n t is b e t t e r e q u i p p e d or 9 b e t t e r c a p a b l e / or do you use the word/ you would get 10 m a x i m u m c o o p e r a t i o n / and I'm asking you, what does 11 t h e w o r d c o o p e r a t i o n m e a n ? 12 MR . GALLO: O b j e c t i o n , he has 13 a n s w e r e d this at least t w i c e . He's g o n e 14 over the same thing. 1 5 MR . BRUCH: Objection. 16 MR . G A L L O : And he has a n s w e r e d by 17 referring you to other language there. 18 THE WITNESS: Did -- my u n d e r s t a n d i n g 19 of it is that the S t a t e w o u l d r e s p o n d that 20 t h e y ca n ' t do this. 21 . MR . COHEN: Okay. 22 THE WITNESS: And, that's what they meai 23 by maximum cooperation. 24 BY. M R . C O H E N : 25 Q. W e r e y o u a w a r e as of -- as of 1961 of the K nipes-C ohen A ssociates .................................................................................................................................... ....... Castleman.CERT00102G 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 143 2 relationship between the asbestos miners and 3 manufacturers and the U.S. Public Health Service? 4 MR . M E N D E L O W : Objection. 5 MR. GALLO: Objection. 6 THE W I T N E S S : I know of no r e l a t i o n 7 ship. 8 BY MR. COHEN: 9 Q. Did you know whether there were particular 10 g r o u p s who w o r k e d as l o b b y i s t s on b e h a l f of the 11 a s b e s t o s i n d u s t r y w i t h t h e U . S . P u b l i c H e a l t h 12 S e r v i c e ? 13 MR. GALLO: Objection. 14 MR. CREEDON: Objection. 1 5 THE WITNESS: I don't know what 1 6 that means. . 17 I don't know what that means. 18 BY MR . C O H E N : 19 Q. Do you know what a lobbyist does? 20 A. 21 Q. I know what a lobbyist does. Do you know w h e t h e r th e r e were i n d i v i d u a l s who 2 2 had l o b b y i n g f u n c t i o n s on b e h a l f of the a s b e s t o s 23 i n d u s t r y w i t h th e U . S . P u b l i c H e a l t h S e r v i c e in 24 1 9 6 1 ? 25 MR. GALLO: O b j e ction -- Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT001027 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 1 44 2 MR. CREEDON: Objection. 3 MR. GALLO: -- Objection, it's 4 beyond the scope and irrelevant. 5 T H E W I T N E S S : You w o u l d have to 6 d e f i n e and give me an example. I don't know 7 what that m e a n s . I think of l o b b y i s t s only 8 w o r k i n g in W a s h i n g t o n or s i m i l a r area. I 9 didn't -- can't see the U.S. Public Health 1 0 S e r v i c e h a v i n g an o f f i c e in Q u e b e c to l o b b y 11 the mines. I don't understand that. 12 BY M R . CO H E N : 13 Q. Well, how about -- 14 A. 15 Q . I don'tunderstand Okay. the question. 1 6 T he q u e s t i o n is, do you know w h e t h e r 17 t h e U . S . P u b l i c H e a l t h S e r v i c e was r e s p o n s i v e to the 18 p o s i t i o n of i n d u s t r y w i t h r e g a r d to a s b e s t o s d i s e a s e 19 i n 1 9 6 1 ? 20 MR. GALLO: Objection -- 21 MR. CREEDON: Objection. 22 MR. G A L L O : -- it c a l l s for an o p i n i o n 23 as to the A g e n c y ' s m e n t a l t h i n k i n g of the 24 U.S. Public Health Service. 25 M R . C O H E N : It c a l l s fo r w h e t h e r he Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.C-ERT001028 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 1 45 2 has any k n o w l e d g e of a r e l a t i o n s h i p e x i s t i n g 3 between the asbestos industry and the Public 4 Health Servic e . 5 MR. GALLO: That's a very broad 6 statement. 7 MR. COHEN: That's right. 8 MR. GALLO: Objection. 9 THE WITNESS: Shall I answer that 10 or not? Do you want me to a n s w e r that? 11 M R . C O H E N: Y e s . 12 THE WITNESS: The only knowledge I have 13 concerning the U.S. Public Health Service, and 14 its r e l a t i o n s h i p to the asbestos exposure, and 1 5 therefore, the asbestos industry, was their 16 r e s p o n s e to Dr. M a g n e s a n , which I b e l i e v e I 17 testified yesterday, that there was a problem, 18 a n d it s h o u l d be i n v e s t i g a t e d . A n d t h e y g a v e 1 9 two m i l l i o n d o l l a r s to the U.S. P u b l i c Health 20 S e r v i c e to m a k e t h i s i n v e s t i g a t i o n . T h a t is 21 the only k n o w l e d g e I have of their r e l a t i o n s h i p 22 with t he a s b e s t o s i n d u s t r y . 23 MR. GALLO: What do you mean by 24 they? 25 THE WITNESS: They are the people that Knipes-Coh:en A s~so~ciates Castleman.CERT001029 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 146 2 I k n e w in the U.S. P u b l i c H e a l t h S e r v i c e , as 3 well as the U.S. P u b l i c H e a l t h S e r v i c e , i t s e l f . 4 BY MR. COHEN: 5 Q. Let me re f e r you to E x h i b i t #16. 6 A. Yes, it's on the b o t t o m of the page, yes, I have 7 it . 8 Q. N o w , r e f e r r i n g you to p a r a g r a p h two of that 9 m i n u t e of t h e A T I M e e t i n g , I'm r e a d i n g f r o m a b o u t 1 0 the m i d d l e of the p a r a g r a p h , it s a y s , " T h e y we r e 11 a w a r e t h a t s t u d i e s m a d e by t h e E n g l i s h in S o u t h 12 A f r i c a on c o l o r e d w o r k e r s may not a p p l y to ot h e r 13 ethnic groups with different environmental 14 b a c k g r o u n d . " 15 A . Yes. 16 Q. Did you have any information whichsuggested 17 t h at p e r s o n s who were B l a c k m i g h t be at a l e s s e r risk 18 t h a n C a u c a s i a n s or o t h e r e t h n i c g r o u p s to d i s e a s e 19 b e c a u s e of e x p o s u r e to a s b e s t o s ? 20 MR. GALLO: Objection. 21 MR. BRUCH: Objection. 22 THE W I T N E S S : I had no p a r t i c u l a r 23 k n o w l e d g e of that area. 24 MR. GALLO: Move to strike. 25 MR. COHEN: On what basis? Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT00l030 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 147 2 MR. GALLO: Calls for medical 3 opinion. 4 BY MR. COHEN: 5 Q. Mr. Horowitz, did you write this document, 6 Exhibit #16? 7 A. 8 Q. Yes, I did. Yes, I did. Do you t h i n k in p a r a g r a p h n u m b e r two, w e r e you 9 giving a medical opinion? 1 0 MR. GALLO: Objection. 11 THE WITNESS: I was reporting the 12 c o n v e r s a t i o n th a t o c c u r r e d at the m e e t i n g . 13 MR. GALLO: Also move to strike that 14 a n s w e r b e c a u s e of its i r r e l e v a n c e . 1 5 MR, COHEN: Well, let me just sug g e s t 16 if i t ' s i r r e l e v a n t , y o u i n t r o d u c e d the 17 i r r e l e v a n c y by m a k i n g this d o c u m e n t and r e a d i n g 18 from p o r t i o n s of it. So, I fail to see the 1 9 basis for you to object to your own exhib i t . 20 MR. GALLO: P e r h a p s you'll be 21 enlightened later. 22 MR. COHEN: Well, it's going to be a 23 f i r s t , if I'm ever e n l i g h t e n e d as to how you 24 can impeach your own document. 25 BY MR . C O H E N : ------------------------------------------------ Gastleman.CERT001031 Knipes-Cohen Associates 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 148 2 Okay, no -- 3 MR. COHEN: Just go off the record 4 foronesecond. 5 N o ,' I 'm s o r r y , n o , l e t ' s s t a y on f o r 6 a moment,sorry. 7 3Y M R . C O H E N : 8 3. I ' d like you to look at an e x h i b i t w h i c h 9 a g ain, I c a n ' t tell what n u m b e r it is. It's d a t e d 1 0 lanuary 29th, 1963. It's an ATI, Air Hygiene 11 ' o m m i t t e e M e e t i n g . I t ' s E x h i b i t U 2 2 , I ' m a d v i s e d , 12 I. Yeah, I have that. 13 l. Okay 14 Wo u l d you look at page two of that 1 5 ix h i b i t ? 16 . Yes. 17 . Am I correct that this document discusses 18 P u b l i c H e a l t h s u r v e y t h a t is to b e .p e r f o r m e d by the 19 .S. P u b l i c H e a l t h S e r v i c e ? 20 . Y e s , it is. 21 . Okay. 22 And, it says in the next to the last 23 a r a g r a p h on p a g e two, "No r e p o r t s will be i s s u e d by 24 he P u b l i c H e a l t h S e r v i c e on the s t u d y u n t i l s u f f i c i e n t 25 n f o r m a t i o n has been c o l l e c t e d to p e r m i t d r a w i n g valid Knip es-C-o--h--e-n-----A--s-s--o-c--i-a:-t-e--s------ Castleman.OERT001032 1 Leon Horowitz - C r o s s 149 2 c o n c l u s i o n s . T h e rep o r t will not m e n t i o n n a m e s of 3 c o m p a n i e s or i n d i v i d u a l s and s p e c i a l e f f o r t will be 4 made to prevent such i d e n tification." 5 Is tha t wha t you m e a n t by c o o p e r a t i o n 6 in y o u r p r i o r memo, Hr. H o r o w i t z ? 7 MR. GALLO: O b j e c t i o n -- 8 MR. BRUCH: Objection. 9 MR. GALLO: Object to the m a n n e r 1 0 in w h i c h it was r e a d . , 11 MR. BRUCH: The witness has already 1 2 d e f i n e d what he meant by c o o p e r a t i o n . 13 T H E W I T N E S S : Not at a l l . It h a d to 14 do with the p rivacy of the i n d i viduals and 1 5 the companies. 16 BY M R. C O H E N : 17 Q Well, were i n d i v i d u a l s going to be m e n t i o n e d 18 as p a r t of t h i s s u r v e y ? 1 9 A. They were assuring the company that individuals 20 who w e r e g o i n g to be q u e s t i o n n a i r e s -- -- q u e s t i o n n a i r e d 21 on t h e i r m e d i c a l h i s t o r y , e a c h i n d i v i d u a l w o u l d be 22 q u e s t i o n e d on h i s - m e d i c a l h i s t o r y , yes. 23 W e l l , wa s t h e r e an y a g r e e m e n t t h a t if the 24 U.S. P u b l i c H e a l t h S u r v e y -- S e r v i c e c a m e in a n d saw 25 a p o t e n t i a l f o r d i s e a s e , w a s n ' t t h e r e an u n d e r s t a n d i n g " _ Knipes-Coh~en A ssociates Casllemaii.CERT001033---- 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 1 50 2 that the y w o u l d not so a d v i s e the e m p l o y e e ? 3 A. That was not the p u r p o s e of their visit. 4 Q T h a t ' s not my question. My q u e s t i o n was, wasn't 5 that understood between the -- the industry and the 6 U.S. Public Health Service? 7 MR. GALLO: Objection. 8 THE WITNESS: The - 9 BY MR. COHEN: 10 Q. 11 m y -- E x c u s e me, y o u ' r e s h a k i n g your head yes, to 12 A . They had no r e l a t ionship with the employees, 13 so t h e y d i d n ' t -- t h e y w e r e n ' t g o i n g to r e p o r t to 14 th e e m p l o y e e s , t h a t ' s r i g h t . 15 But, the employer who was being surveyed had a 16 r e l a t i o n s h i p to the e m p l o y e e ; d i d t h e y n o t ? 17 A. It was his d u t y to t h e n p a s s on t h a t i n f o r m a 18 t i o n , r i g h t . 1 9 Q. Well - 20 A. If t h e y g a v e it to him, r i g h t . 21 Q. B u t , w a s n ' t it e x p r e s s l y u n d e r s t o o d b e t w e e n the 22 a s b e s t o s i n d u s t r y a n d the U n i t e d S t a t e s P u b l i c H e a l t h 23 S e r v i c e t h a t as a c o n d i t i o n to a l l o w i n g the U . S . P u b l i c 24 H e a l t h S e r v i c e i n t o t h e s e p l a n t s to do t h i s s u r v e y , 25 t h a t t h e y w e r e not to a d v i s e e m p l o y e e s of the p l a n t or Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT001034 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 151 2 Ik to t h e e m p l o y e e s of t h e p l a n t a b o u t t h e p o t e n t i a l 3 alth hazards associated with asbestos? 4 MR. CREEDON: Objection. 5 MS. GIBSON: Object to the form. 6 THE WITNESS: That was not a condition 7 of the study. 8 MR . GALLO: Objection. 9 MR . BRUCH: Objection. 10 Y MR. COHEN: 11 - W a s it a c o n d i t i o n of t h e s t u d y as far as y o u 12 now, that's what you're testifying? 13 . I never heard them say that this was a condition 14 f the study. 1 5 Was it a c o n d i t i o n of the s t u d y that the n a m e s 16 f the p l a n t s or the c o r p o r a t i o n s that were viewed 17 ould not be p u b l i s h e d ? 18 . They said any reports coming from this would not 19 n c l u d e the n a m e s of the c o m p a n i e s . 20 . A n d , do y o u -- to y o u r k n o w l e d g e , w a s t h a t n ot 21 condition that was placed upon the U.S. Public Health 22 rv ice ? 23 No, sir, that is a t y p i c a l m e t h o d of r e p o r t i n g 24 search. " 25 Well, I know -- Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT001035 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 152 2 A. N o n - d i s c l o s u r e of p r i v a c y , stuff like that. 3 Q. I k n o w it was t y p i c a l for the a s b e s t o s 4 industry. 5 A. For c o n c l u s i o n s not to be made and stuff 6 like that. 7 9. No, we're not talking ~r 8 MR. BRUCH: Object.to the 9 c h a r a c t e r i z a t i o n -- 1 0 M R . T i A L L O : Move to s t r i k e and edit 11 from the tape that last comment by P l a i n t i f f ' s 12 counsel. 13 THE COURT REPORTER: For conclusions 14 to be m a d e -- I -- e v e r y o n e t a l k e d at once. 1 5 BY MR. COHEN: 16 Q. Mr.Horowitz-- 17 A . Yes. 18 Q . Okay. 19 Let me -- let me just ask y ou a g a i n , 20 to your k n o w l e d g e , was that a c o n d i t i o n for a l l o w i n g 21 U . S . P u b l i c H e a l t h S e r v i c e i n t o t h e p l a n t to e x a m i n e 22 the p l a n t ? 23 MR. CREEDON: Objection. 24 MR. BRUCH: Objection, asked and 25 answered. Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT001036 1 Leon Horowitz - Cross 153 2 T H E W I T N E S S : It was not a c o n d i t i o n 3 to e x a m i n e the p l a n t s , to my k n o w l e d g e . 4 BY MR. COHEN: 5 Q. To your knowledge, did any State Industrial 6 H y g i e n e g r o u p s that w o u l d p e r f o r m this sort of 7 service, did they - - were they approached with regard 8 to n o n - d i s c l o s u r e . o f n a m e s of the c o m p a n i e s being 9 surveyed? 10 MR. CREEDON: Objection. 11 MR. BRUCH: Objection. 1 2 T H E W I T N E S S : Can I a n s w e r it in 13 my way? 14 M R . C O H E N : Y o u can a n s w e r it any way 1 5 you deem fit. 16 THE WITNESS: The U.S. Public Health 17 S e r v i c e at t h a t t i m e b e i n g a Federal. A g e n c y at 18 that t i m e was not p e r m i t t e d to go into any 1 9 State plant without the State's knowledge. So, 20 every plant -- everylState was approached first 21 and the U.S. P u b l i c H e a l t h S e r v i c e had to ask 22 t h e i r p e r m i s s i o n , as well as the plant to go in. 23 W h e t h e r t h e r e was any ki n d of d i s c u s s i o n c o n c e r n 24 ing the i n f o r m a t i o n , I have no idea about that. 25 BY MR . C O H E N : Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT001037 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 1 54 2 Q. Are you f a m i l i a r with -- or have you read any 3 Asbestos Textile Institute meetings, where there was a 4 d i s c u s s i o n a b o u t c o n d i t i o n i n g the i n s p e c t i o n of any 5 p l a n t s upon an a s s u r a n c e that no names would be 6 mentioned? 7 A. I don't e x a c t l y recall that, no. 8 Q. Are you a w a r e that t h e r e was a p r o p o s a l in the 9 1940's to pe r f o r m hygiene surveys, and that that was 1 0 d i s c u s s e d at the A s b e s t o s T e x t i l e I n s t i t u t e M e e t i n g s 11 at v a r i o u s p l a n t s ? 12 A. That was prior to my time. I have no idea 13 a b o u t t h a t . 1 4 Q. I'm s a y i n g , s u b s e q u e n t l y , in any of your 1 5 p o s i t i o n s for e i t h e r K e a s b e y - H a t t i son or Certai n tee d, 16 did you h a v e o c c a s i o n to go b a c k w a r d in time and read 17 m i n u t e s of the A s b e s t o s T e x t i l e I n s t i t u t e ? 18 MR. BRUCH: I o b j e c t as to C e r t a i n t e e d , 19 b e c a u s e they were not a m e m b e r of the A s b e s t o s 20 Textile. 21 T H E W I T N E S S : Well, I t h i n k ' o n e of 22 the e x h i b i t s , here, r e fers to a m e e t i n g prior 23 to my time, where -- but, that's the only 24 i n f o r m a t i o n I have. The one we d i s c u s s e d this 2 5 morning. Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT001038 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 155 2 MR. COHEN: Okay. 3 3Y MR. COH E N : 4 Now, we are on -- Let me ask you, page three 5 >f t h i s s a m e d o c u m e n t , o k a y , t h e L a s t p a r a g r a p h 6 jays, " H o w e v e r , the v i s i t of a t e a m of t w e l v e men fr o m 7 :he F e d e r a l A g e n c y i n v e s t i g a t i n g o n e of our p l a n t s for 8 i full week co u l d c r e a t e an i n d u s t r i a l r e l a t i o n s 9 i r o b l e m . S u c h a v i s i t w o u l d r e q u i r e a g r e a t d e a l of 10 r e p a r a t i o n in o r d e r to i n f o r m p l a n t p e r s o n n e l , the 11 i n i o n , a n d e v e n t h e c o m m u n i t y t h a t t h e s t u d y is b e i n g 12 m a d e f o r r e s e a r c h p u r p o s e s o n l y , a n d t h a t t h e p l a n t 13 is n o t b e i n g i n v e s t i g a t e d b e c a u s e of a n y p a r t i c u l a r 14 roblem." 1 5 Have I correctly read that? 16 You have. 17 . Is t h a t , in y o u r ' o p i n i o n , a- c o m p l e t e l y a c c u r a t e a rji 18 r u t h f u l s t a t e m e n t at the time you w r o t e it? 19 . Yes. 20 . Was t h e r e a c o n c e r n at K e a s b e y - M a t t i s o n with a 21 a r t i c u l a r p r o b l e m of t h e d e v e l o p m e n t of a s b e s t o s 22 e l a t e d d i s e a s e ? 23 MR. G A L L O : No, o b j e c t i o n , to the 24 refer e n c e to Keasbey and Mattison. 25 MR. COHEN: Strike that, I'm sorry, Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERTlS 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 156 2 it was C e r t a i n t e e d C o r p o r a t i o n . 3 BY MR . COHEN: 4 Q. As, of J a n u a r y , 1 9 6 3 at C e r t a i n t e e d , w a s t h e r e 5 a c o n c e r n w i t h t h e p a r t i c u l a r p r o b l eras t h a t c o u l d a r i s e 6 t 0 e m p l o y e e s b e c a u s e o f e x p o s u r e to a s b e s t o s ? 7 A. If t h e r e w a s n ' t a c o n c e r n , I spent my time bet ween 8 '60 and '63 uselessly. 9 Q. Okay. 1 0 A. M y r e p o r t s w e r e o b v i o u s l y di r e c t e d in t h a t 11 d i r e c t i o n . 12 Q. S o , t h a t w a s a c o n c e r n of C e r t a i n t e e d , w a s it 13 n o t ? 1 4 A. Of course. 15 Q . 1 6 Okay. And one of the r e a s o n s that t h e s e 17 i n d u s t r i a l h y g i e n e p e o p l e w e r e c o m i n g i nto the p l a n t 18 was to c o n d u c t a s u r v e y r e l a t i n g to t h a t p a r t i c u l a r 19 p r o b l e m ; was it no t ? 20 MR. BRUCH: Objection. 21 THE W I T N E S S : As a r e s e a r c h p r o j e c t . 22 BY M R . C O H E N : 23 Q. W h e t h e r it is as a r e s e a r c h p r o j e c t or for any 24 o t h e r r e a s o n s , t h e y are t h e r e b e c a u s e of a p a r t i c u l a r 2 5 p r o b l e m that m i g h t e x i s t at the p l a n t ? Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT001040 1 2 A. Leon Ho rowi t z Cross 157 No, b e c a u s e of the c o n c e r n of the U n i t e d States 3 concerning the relationship between exposure and 4 d i s e a s e . As -- as I i n d i c a t e d b e f o r e , i n i t i a t e d by 5 Dr. M a g u n s e n and so on. 6 THE COURT REPORTER: By Dr. - 7 T H E W I T N E S S : M a g u n s e n , I b e l i e v e it 8 was, M-A-G-U-N-S-E-N. 9 BY MR . COHEN: 1 0 Q. And, as I recall, you stated you were not aware 11 t h a t a n y e m p l o y e e w a s e v e r a d v i s e d t h a t t h e y m i g h t 12 have a p a r t i c u l a r p r o b l e m , such as c a r c i n o m a or 13 m e s o t h e l i o m a d u e to t h e i r e x p o s u r e to a s b e s t o s ; is 14 that c o r r e c t ? 1 5 MR. GALLO: Objection. 16 MS. GIBSON: Objection. 17 MR . BRUCH : Objection. 18 MR. GALLO: That has not been 1 9 establi shed. 20 MR. BRUCH: That was not his 21 testimony 22 MR. COHEN: Let me back track. 23 MR. GALLO: Mov e to s t r i k e the 24 question. 25 MR . COHEN: Let me back track. Knip es-Cohen Associates Castleman.ubkluu1u41 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 158 2 BY M R . COHEN: 3 Q. To y o u r k n o w l e d g e , was any e m p l o y e e of 4 Certainteed Corporation ever advised that they might 5 d e v e l o p m e s o t h e l i o m a b e c a u s e of being e x p o s e d to 6 the a s b e s t o s in the p l ant? 7 M R . G A L L O : O b j e c t i o n , it has b e e n 8 asked and answered. 9 MR. BRUCH: And that's a different 1 0 question than you asked before, and you're 11 now repeating questions previously asked. 12 MR . PAUL : O b j e c t i o n , as well, for 13 the r e a s o n s set forth in my p r e v i o u s 14 objections. 1 5 THE W I T N E S S : Do I a n s w e r ? 16 MR . COHEN: Yes . 17 MR . P A U L : W h i c h are u n i q u e to our 18 plaintiff and -- 1 9 20 T H E W I T N E S S : As s t a t e d b e f o r e , it 21 was a g r e a t q u e s t i o n in t h e i r m i n d s , and t h e r e t o 22 t h e y w o u l d not h a v e a d v i s e d t h e m . T h i s is o n e 23 of the p u r p o s e s of the s t u d y , for a n e u t r a l 24 a g e n c y to come to c o n c l u s i o n s , the study was 25 two fold, environmental and medical. And the Knipes-Cohen Associates castleman.cEKIuu1u42 1 Leon Horowitz - C r o s s 159 2 e x p e c t a t i o n was that this body, a g e n c y of the 3 G o v e r n m e n t , would come to a fair conclusion. 4 It w a s n e v e r f i n i s h e d . It was -- o n l y the 5 environmental was done. 6 BY MR. COHEN: 7 Q. Did Dr. S e l i k o f f ever ask to come to 8 K e a s b e y and M a t t i s o n to p e rform a survey? 9 A. If he d i d , it was not to my k n o w l e d g e . 10 Q . Do y o u k n o w w h e t h e r Dr. S e l i k o f f e v e r a s k e d to 11 be a l l o w e d to g o a r o u n d to v a r i o u s a s b e s t o s p l a n t s in 12 t h e c o u n t r y a n d p e r f o r m i n d u s t r i a l h y g i e n e s u r v e y s ? 13 A . I f he did, I have n o k n o w l e d g e of that. 14 Q . Let me refer you now to -- again, I don't have 15 a n e x h i b i t n u m b e r on the top , it's an August 11th, 16 1 965 m e m o r a n d u m . 17 A. I have that. That's #25? 18 0. If t h a t ' s what it is. 19 A. Okay. 20 Q. I wo u l d like to refer you to page two, and this 21 d i s c u s s e s t h e c h e s t x - r a y p r o g r a m . P a r a g r a p h t h r e e 22 s a y s , R o l e of t h e p l a n t ( l o c a l p h y s i ci a n ) " - - 23 A . What paragraph? 24 a. L a s t pa rag r a p h , u n d e r n u m b e r 3. E a c h p l a n t m u s t be a s s o c i a t e d w i t h a c o m p e t e n t d o c t o r w h o is i n t e r e s t e d Knipe's-Cohen A ssoci:ates Castleman.CtKluuiU43 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 160 2 in i n d u s t r i a l m e d i c i n e and s y m p a t h e t i c to 3 i n d u s t r y ' s point of v i e w so that he will s c r e e n all 4 a p p l i c a n t s at p r e - e m p l o y m e n t p h y s i c a l s and reject 5 t h o s e who w o u l d be i n v o l v e d in a c c i d e n t s or p o t e n t i a l 6 claims.. 7 And, then,., it goes on to m a k e a 8 d e s c r i p t i o n of what type of claims might be made. 9 Can y o u t e l l me wh y -- w h y was it felt n e c e s s a r y to 1 0 get a d o c t o r who was s y m p a t h e t i c to the v i e w p o i n t of 11 i n d u s t r y as o p p o s e d to s o m e o n e w h o w a s o b j e c t i v e a n d 12 c o m p e t e n t ? 13 MR. BRUCH: Objection. 14 MR. GALLO: I object to your 1 5 a s k i n g that, u n l e s s the witness has a c h a n c e to 16 review the whole document. 17 MR. COHEN: Well, okay, Mr. Horowitz, 18 we'll go off the record, please review the 19 entire document. 20 MR. GALLO: Let's go off the tape. 21 MR. STEWART: We're now going off 22 the r e c o r d . T h e t i m e is 1 2 : 5 6 . 23 W e ' r e n ow b a c k on the re cord. The 24 t ime is 1 o ' c l o c k . 25 THE W I T N E S S : The choice of word, K nipes---C---o-h--e--n----A---s-s-o--c--i-a-t-e--s------ Castleman.CERT001044 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 161 2 s y m p a t h e t i c , was a very poor cho i c e of words, 3 I admit that. 4 MR. COHEN: Well -- 5 * THE W I T N E S S : In r e t r o s p e c t and even 6 at the time, what I r e a l l y meant was an u n d e r 7 standing, one that u n d e r s t a n d s the company's 8 problems. 9 BY MR. COHEN: 10 Q. Well, how about a physician who could under 11 s t a n d t h e e m p l o y e e ' s p r o b l e m s a n d be o b j e c t i v e , w o u l d 12 that w o u l d that have been of i n t e r e s t ? 13 A. Definitely. 14 Q . 0kay . 1 5 A g a i n , l o o king at page three, the 16 s e c o n d p a r a g r a p h , y o u ' r e t a l k i n g -- y o u ' r e c o n t i n u i n g 17 on, y o u ' r e s a y i n g , this d o c t o r s h ould be a r e s p o n s i b l e 18 m a t u r e p h y s i c i a n w h o w i l l p r o v i d e c o n s e r v a t i v e l a n g u a g e 19 in his r e l a t i o n s h i p with the e m p l o y e e s c o n c e r n i n g 20 t h e i r ai I m e n t s . 21 W h y , a g a i n , wa s it n e c e s s a r y to l o o k 22 f o r a d o c t o r w h o w o u l d be c o n s e r v a t i v e , as o p p o s e d to 23 o n e w h o w o u l d be o b j e c t i v e and yet c o m p e t e n t ? 24 MR. MASON: Objection, argumentative. 25 MR. BRUCH: I obje c t to this q u e s t i o n , Knipes-Cohen A sso--c-i-a-t--e-s------ Gastleman.GERT001045 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 162 2 p a r t i c u l a r l y s i n c e it's t a k e n out of c o n t e x t 3 with the previous paragraph. 4 MR. COHEN: I'll be very happy to 5 go b a c k to t h e p r i o r p a r a g r a p h , if t h e r e ' s 6 s o m e t h i n g I'm t a k i n g out of eoiptext. 7 MR. BRUCH: The paragraph right 8 before p aragraph -- on page three, before the 9 paragraph, the last paragraph you read. 1 0 MR. G U S K Y : I w o u l d just like to 11 k n o w in l ight of Mr. C o h e n ' s o b j e c t i o n s he 12 made y e s t e r d a y , w h e t h e r he inte n d s to read the 13 entire document into evidence -- 14 MR. COHEN: I'll be happy to. 5 MR. G U S K Y : ~ - s i n c e he l o d g e d that 16 objection yesterday, when M r . G a l l o made - - 17 M R . C O H E N : I ' l l be' v e r y h a p p y to 18 sit here and read the entire document into 1 9 e v i d e n c e , an d if t h a t -- if t h e r e ' s an 20 o b j e c t i o n to my r e a d i n g part of the d o c u m e n t , 21 I'll be very happy to. 22 MR. MASON: I obje c t to you reading 23 the entire document. 24 MR. COHEN: Okay. Since Mr. Mason 25 has o b j e c t e d , I -- I'm h o n o r b o u n d not to read Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT001046 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 163 2 the entire document. 3 MR. BRUCH: Mr. Cohen, I think you 4 and I reached the agreement that you'll read 5 the first p a r a g r a p h on page three. 6 MR. COHEN: That I wilt read the 7 first paragraph -- oh, yes, I'm sorry. 8 BY M R . C OHEN: 9 Q I - d i d s k i p o n e p a r a g r a p h in b e t w e e n the o n e we 10 just discussed where you said sympathetic was a poor 11 c h o i c e in r e t r o s p e c t . 12 It s a y s , t h i s d o c t o r s h o u l d be 13 f a m i l i a r e n o u g h w i t h t h e p l a n t o p e r a t i o n s so he can 14 r e c o m m e n d that an e m p l o y e e be p r e v e n t e d from d o i n g some 1 5 types of wo r k . A v i s i t to the p l a n t at least o n c e a 16 /ear w o u l d be a d v a n t a g e o u s . It t h e n g o e s on, t h i s 17 doctor s h o u l d be a responsible., m a t u r e p h y s i c i a n who 18 fill p r o v i d e c o n s e r v a t i v e l a n g u a g e in h i s r e l a t i o n s h i p 19 rfith t h e e m p l o y e e s c o n c e r n i n g t h e i r a i l m e n t s , a n d I woultji 20 again like to ask you, in light of the fact that you 21 J t i l i z e d t h e w o r d , a d o c t o r w h o w o u l d be s y m p a t h e t i c 22 to i n d u s t r y ' s p o i n t of v i e w in t h e f i r s t p a r a g r a p h , 23 /hy w a s it n e c e s s a r y to h a v e a d o c t o r w h o w o u l d p r o v i d e 24 c o n s e r v a t i v e l a n g u a g e , as o p p o s e d to one wh o w o u l d be 25 a b j e c t i v e , a n d let the c h i p s fall w h e r e t h e y m a y ? Knipes-Cohen Associates castleman.CERT001047 1 Leon Horowitz - Cross 164 2 MR. GALLO: Objection/ move to 3 strike. 4 MR . BRUCH : Objection. 5 MR . GALLO : It's an a r g u m e n t a t i v e 6 question. 7 MR . COHEN: Well, the witness 8 u t i l i z e d the w o r d . I 'm a s k i n g him - - 9 MR. GALLO: Why don't you ask him 10 what the word meant? 11 MR. COHEN: 1 2 l W h y d i d y o u f i n d it n e c e s s a r y to say that the 13 loctor s h o u l d be -- use c o n s e r v a t i v e l a n g u a g e in 1 4 lis r e l a t i o n s h i p w i t h t h e e m p l o y e e s ? 1 5 i B e c a u s e of the p o t e n t i a l for d i s t u r b i n g a 1 6 a p a t i e n t or an emp l o y e e / p a t ient, as to w h e t h e r 17 he p o t e n t i a l for d a m a g e / p e r s o n a l d a m a g e , w o u l d be 18 n e a t e r t h a n it a c t u a l l y is. I t h i n k -- I t h i n k 19 b j e c t i v e is r e a l l y the p r o p e r w o r d , but for p u r p o s e s 20 f -- of w r iting to the plant m a n a g e m e n t , I leaned 21 n the d i r e c t i o n of c o n s e r v a t i v e . 22 . W e l l , let me a s k , w o u l d it not -- w o u l d it a l s o 23 n u r e t o the b e n e f i t of the c o r p o r a t i o n , from a stand- y 24 o i n t of not b e i n g s u e d or h a v i n g W o r k m e n s ' C o m p e n s a t i o n 25 laims filed ag a i n s t it, to seek a doctor who would use Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT001048 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 165 2 c o n s e r v a t i v e L a n g u a g e in his r e l a t i o n s h i p with the 3 employees? 4 MR. GALLO: Objection. 5 MS. GIBSON: Objection. 6 MR.BRUCH: Objection. 7 MR. GUSKY: You're asking the witness 8 to make a legal, opinion- 9 MR . COHEN: I'm asking the witness - 1 0 MR. GUSKY: -- he's not q u a l i f i e d to 11 give. 12 BY MR. C O H E N : 13 Q. In u s i n g the word, c o n s e r v a t i v e , did you have 14 a n y c o n s i d e r a t i o n at all as to if the e m p l o y e e 1 5 b e c a m e a l a r m e d , he or she may take f u r t h e r steps, such 1 6 as s e e k i n g a lawyer and s u eing the c o r p o r a t i o n , was that 17 a c o n c e r n of y o u r s at all in w r i t i n g this m e m o r a n d u m ? 18 MR. BRUCH: Objection. 1 9 MR. GALLO: O b j e c t i o n , he a l r e a d y 20 t o l d you what he meant. 21 MR . COHEN: No, he d i d n ' t . . 22 THE W I T N E S S : I would like to a nswer 23 that by refe rring to the p a r a g r a p h you o r i g i n a l l y 24 s t a r t e d , the b e g i n n i n g of p a r a g r a p h three. 25 MR. COHEN: Surely. -----------!-----------------K--n-i-p-e--s--C--o-h--e-n---A--s-s-o-c-i-a-t-e-s--- Castleman.CEKIUU1U49--- 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 166 2 THE W I T N E S S : And it r e f e r s to p r e 3 employment physicals. 4 MR. COHEN: I understand that. 5 THE WITNESS: And Workmens' Compensa 6 t i o n was not i n v o l v e d u n t i l the p e r s o n is 7 employed, so, therefore, compensation had 8 nothing to do with that. The whole point 9 was not to hi r e s o m e b o d y f r o m a coal m i n e or 1 0 somebody who had a previous disease, and then n be b l a m e d , if y ou want to use that w o r d , 12 for the d i s e a s e he might have caught with - - 13 g o t t e n s o m e w h e r e else, or even a back ache or 14 having a back injury or something like that. 15 BY M R . C O H E N : 16 Q. But, it a l s o t a l k s a b o u t the d o c t o r being 17 f a m i l i a r e n o u g h to go on a y e a r l y b a s i s to the 18 p l a n t . So, am I c o r r e c t - 19 A . Sure. . 2 0 Q. So, the p u r p o s e , the role of the plant p h y s i c i a n 21 l o c a l l y , w a s n o t m e r e l y l i m i t e d to p r e - e m p l o y m e n t 22 p h y s i c a l s , it was in the r e l a t i o n s h i p of that d o c t o r 23 to t h e p l a n t f r o m the p o i n t t h a t the i n d i v i d u a l was 24 h i r e d f o r w a r d a l s o ? 25 MR . BRUCH: Objection. K nipes-C ohen A ssociates -----------------------------:--------------------- :------------------------------ Castleman.CEKIUUIUbU 1 Leon Horowitz - Cross 167 2 MS . GIBSON: O b jection. 3 MR. GALLO: Objec t i o n to the form 4 of the quest i o n . 5 MR. BRUCH: And, also, object to the 6 q u e s t i o n , b e c a u s e there has been no t e s t i m o n y 7 as to a plant p h y s i c i a n . S MR. PAUL: Note my conti n u i n g 9 o b j e c t i o n to this line of t e s t i m o n y with 10 respect to our p a r t i c u l a r Pl a i n t i f f ' s case. 11 BY M R . C O H E N : 12 Q. T he t h i r d p a r a g r a p h -- let me -- let's go back 13 for a m o m e n t -- 1 4 A. I would like to a n s w e r that q u e s t i o n . 15 Q . Well-- 16 MR. G A L L O : I t h i n k he s h o u l d be 17 p e r m i t t e d to a n s w e r . 18 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 1 9 Whatwasthat? . 20 BY MR. COHEN: 21 Q. Is it y o u r p o s i t i o n t h a t p a r a g r a p h t h r e e , as 22 w e ' v e r ead it, and that the role of the p l a n t p h y s i c i a n 23 as d i s c u s s e d in t h i s e n t i r e e x h i b i t , was l i m i t e d 24 s o l e l y to p r e - e m p l o y m e n t p h y s i c a l s ? 25 A. -- ---- Not, but paragragh three was. Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT001051 1 Leon Horowitz - Cross 168 2 Q. If -- if p a r a g r a p h t h r e e is L i m i t e d to p r e 3 e m p l o y m e n t p h y s i c a l s , can you explan to me why 4 we're discus s i n g the fact that the physician should 5 be able to go t h r o u g h the plant on a at least once a 6 year basis? 7 A. Easily, very easily. He should know what the 8 o p e r a t i o n s ar e . And if an e m p l o y e e is b e i n g h i r e d to 9 do l i f t i n g , l e t ' s say, t h e n when he e x a m i n e d the 1 0 e m p l o y e e and he had a c u r v a t u r e of the s p i n e , he s h o u l d 11 h a v e t h a t k n o w l e d g e . A n d , he d o e s n ' t k n o w w h a t t h e 12 m an w i l l do u n l e s s he is k n o w l e d g e a b l e a b o u t the p l a n t . 13 A p l a n t p h y s i c i a n h a s no r e a l u s e to t h e p l a n t , u n l e s s 14 he k n o w s what is -- what the work will be of the 1 5 e m p l o y e e s t h a t he is e x a m i n i n g b e f o r e t h e y get the 1 6 job. So, t h a t was the p u r p o s e of it. 17 Q, Well, when we're talking about the doctor should 18 be r e s p o n s i b l e , a n d u s e c o n s e r v a t i v e l a n g u a g e in his 19 r e l a t i o n s h i p w i t h t h e e m p l o y e e s , y o u ' r e not -- y o u ' r e 20 not t a l k i n g a b o u t p o t e n t i a l e m p l o y e e s or n e w l y h i r e d 21 p e o p l e , y o u ' r e u s i n g t h e w o r d e m p l o y e e s . A n d I ' d l i k e 22 to ask you w h e r e -- a n y w h e r e w i t h i n this e n t i r e d o c u m e n t 23 do y o u limit t h e r o t e of the p l a n t p h y s i c i a n to b e i n g 24 just p r e - e m p l o y m e n t p h y s i c a l s o n l y ? 25 A. Only in that p a r a g r a p h , but I didn't repeat the K nipes-C ohen A ssociates ------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------Castleman.CERT001052 1 Leon Horowi t z Cross 169 2 fact that they're potential employees, right. 3 Q. Okay. 4 You ' r e tell i n g me now, that this 5 p a r a g r a p h t h r e e is l i m i t e d o n l y to p r e - e m p l o y m e n t 6 p h y s i c a l s ; is that c o r r e c t ? 7 A. W e l l , in all h o n e s t y that last p a r a g r a p h s h o u l d 8 r e a d -- I m e a n t for all --"'or I s h o u l d m e a n for all 9 p h y s i c a l s , but this p a r a g r a p h r e f e r r e d to only 10 p r e - e m p l o y m e n t , right, item three. 11 Q. But, t h e r e is no m e n t i o n of that a n y w h e r e i n 12 the d o c u m e n t , t h a t ' s what I'm a s k i n g ? 13 M R. G A L L O : O b j e c t i o n , it d o e s m e n t i o n 14 it in t h e b e g i n n i n g of p a r a g r a p h t h r e e , an d 1 5 the witness has stated that. And, you're asking 16 n o w f o r t h e f o u r t h t i m e w h e t h e r it s t a t e s t h a t . 17 BY MR. C O H E N : 18 Q. Now, did K e a s b e y and M a t t i s o n or let me just 19 s t r i k e t h a t . 20 Did Certainteed Corporation give 21 y e a r l y p h y s i c a l s o n c e t h e i n d i v i d u a l w a s h i r e d ? 22 A. I don't have recall on that. 23 Q. Do you know whet h e r d o c t o r s would consult - - 24 e x c u s e me, or s p e a k w i t h e m p l o y e e s r e g a r d i n g a s b e s t o s 25 d i s e a s e at a l l at C e r t a i n t e e d , o n c e t h e e m p l o y e e w a s Knipes!-Cohen A ssociates : Castleman.CERT001053 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 1 70 2 hired? 3 A. Before they worked with the -- before they 4 w o r k e d there,, you mean? 5 Q No, I 'm just saying/ a s s u m i n g an e m p l o y e e was 6 hi r e d . 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. 9 Okay. Fromthe point that that individual 10 was hi r e d for -- for C e r t a i n t e e d C o r p o r a t i o n , did 11 p h y s i c i a n s w h o w e r e e m p l o y e d b y C e r t a i n t e e d , w h e t h e r 12 on a p a r t - t i m e or f u l l - t i m e b a s i s , ever s p e a k to 13 e m p l o y e e s r e g a r d i n g a s b e s t o s h e a l t h h a z a r d s ? 14 A. I have no k n o w l e d g e what they s p o k e to 15 employeesabout. 16 MR. COHEN: I would like right now 17 just to go off the r e c o r d . S u b j e c t to my 18 r e v i e w of the d o c u m e n t s that were just p r o d u c e d 19 this m o r n i n g , which I wo u l d like to take some 20 t i m e to e x a m i n e , I have no f u r t h e r q u e s t i o n s of 21 Mr. H o r o w i t z . I would like to reserve that 22 u n t i l I look at the d o c u m e n t s , t h o u g h . If there':; 23 no o b j e c t i o n -- if o t h e r P l a i n t i f f s ' c o u n s e l 24 wish to proceed, I'll review the documents while 25 t h a t e x a m i n a t i o n is o c c u r r i n g . Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.uEKIuu1Ub4 1 Leon Horowitz - Cross 171 2 MR. PAUL: Let's go off the tape. 3 MR. COHEN: Okay, we'll go off the 4 record. 5 MR. STEWART: We're now going off the 6 r e c ord. The time is 1:10. 7 We're now back on the record. The 8 time is 1:24. , 9 IY M R . P A U L : 1 0 Good afternoon, Mr. Horowitz, I .have a few 11 Iu e s t i o n s f o r y o u . 12 Would you turn to E x h ibit 22, that 13 ieen a l r e a d y m a r k e d , 14 . I have it. 15 . Do you see on the top of it a list of p e o p l e 16 ho a t t e n d e d t h a t m e e t i n g ? 17 . Yes, I do. 18 . Do y o u s e e a g e n t l e m a n i d e n t i f i e d as Mr. W. 19 o h n s on ? 20 Next to the last - 21 Yes. 22 -- yes. 23 Do you have any r e c o l l e c t i o n of his p r e s e n c e 24 that meeting? 25 I don't know the gentleman. Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CEKIUUIUbb 1 Leon Horowitz - Cross 1 72 2 Q. You do not know the gentleman. 3 Do you know the c o m p a n y that he 4 works for? 5 MR. GALLO: Objection. 6 BY MR . P A U L : 7 Q. The document -- what does the document say 8 the -- 9 A. It s a y s A t l a s A s b e s t o s C o m p a n y , a n d I v a g u e l y 1 0 r e m e m b e r an A t l a s A s b e s t o s C o m p a n y . 11 Q. What do you recall about Atlas Asbestos 12 C o m p a n y ? 13 A. Nothing special. 14 Q. Do you recall where they were located? 1 5 A. I have no recollection. 16 Q. Do you have any r e c o l l e c t i o n of who they were 17 o w n e d b y ? 18 A. I have no r e c o l l e c t i o n . 19 Q. Now, as I u n d e r s t a n d it, that at your last 20 d e p o s i t i o n in 1980 that we ' v e spent so much time 21 t a l k i n g a b o u t - 22 A . Yes. 23 Q. - - t h a t y o u p r o d u c e d v a r i o u s d o c u m e n t s ; is 24 t h a t c o r r e c t ? 25 A. That is c o r rect. Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT001056 1 Leon Horowitz - Cross 173 2 9. Do I al s o u n d e r s t a n d that s u b s e q u e n t to that 3 d e p o s i t i o n / in r e s p o n s e to r e q u e s t s for r e v i e w of y our 4 files, you discovered other documents? 5 A. I was a s k e d to b r i n g in o t h e r d o c u m e n t s th a t 6 I m a d e r e f e r e n c e to at the d e p o s i t i o n . 7 Q. Did you, in fact, do that? 8 A. I sent it to Ms. G i b s o n . 9 9. And, who is Ms. Gi b s o n ? 10 A. She is the a t t o r n e y for Shea, et c e t e r a . 11 Q. Now -- 12 A. I c a n ' t r e m e m b e r e v e r y t h i n g , can I? 13 9. No w , sir, I w o u l d like to s h o w you, in t u r n , some 14 d o c u m e n t s t h a t I was h a n d e d t h i s m o r n i n g . I'm g o i n g 15 to first show you this d o c u m e n t , and ask you to review 16 i t . 17 Y o u ' v e r e a d i t , si r ? 18 A . Y e s , I d o n ' t -- I d o n ' t have to read it. 19 9 . Do you r e c o g n i z e -- 20 A . I don't remember every word, but I -- 21 Q . Do you r e m e m b e r what this d o c u m e n t is, sir? 22 A . Yes, I d o . 23 9. W h a t is it? 24 A . It's a r e v i e w of a con f e r e n c e on b i o l o g i c a l 25 e f f e cts of a s b e s t o s tha t was g i v e n by the New Y o r k Knipes-Cohen Associates castieman.CERT00i057 1 Leon H o r o w i t z Cross 1 74 2 A c a d e m y of S c i e n c e s , New York City, at the W a l d o r f - 3 A s t o r i a . It w a s a t t e n d e d by Mr. S h a w a n d m y s e l f . 4 Q. You attended this conference? 5 A. I did. 6 Q. No w , is t h e d o c u m e n t that you see in f r o n t of 7 y o u , was t h a t c o n t a i n e d in a fi l e w h i c h y ou m a i n t a i n e d 8 in the o r d i n a r y c ourse of your b u s i n e s s ? 9 A. T h a t was a copy of a m emo that Mr. Shaw, w h o 1 0 a p p a r e n t l y was c o n s u l t a n t to Mr. H u t c h c r o f t of R e s e a r c h 11 f o r R & D , a n d h e s e n t a m e m o c o v e r i n g t h a t m e e t i n g to 12 Mr. H u t c h c r o f t , and I r e c e i v e d a copy, one way or 13 t h e o t h e r . 14 Q. And t his d o c u m e n t -- t his is that d o c u m e n t ? 15 A, 16 Q. T h i s is that d o c u m e n t . An d , it was m a i n t a i n e d in y o u r f i l e ? 17 A. 18 Q. It w a s m a i n t a i n e d in my f i l e . U n t i l t h e t i m e t h a t y o u p r o v i d e d it to Ms. 19 G i b s o n in t h e -- as a r e s u l t of the r e q u e s t m a d e at the 20 last d e p o s i t i o n ? 21 A. I p r o v i d e d a copy of that. 22 Q. Now, sir, there are -- there are names of c e r t a i n 23 p e r s o n s r e f e r r e d to in t h i s d o c u m e n t -- 24 A . Y e s . 25 Q. -- D r . S. H o l m e s , a Dr. J. F. K n o x , a Dr. Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman:CERTO0TO58 1 Leon Horowitz - Cross 175 2 B e a t t y a n d a Mr. D. W. H i l l s . W i t h r e s p e c t to e a c h 3 of the f o u r - - 4 A. 5 9. I have my c o p y . Oh . 6 With r e s p e c t to each of t h e s e four 7 g e n t l e m e n , in t u r n , do you r e c a l l m e e t i n g t h e m in 8 1964? 9 A. 1 0 9. 11 A. 12 Q. Ido. Did you meet all four of them? I d id . Are they the four gentlemen that are referred 13 to in t h e d o c u m e n t t h a t was m a r k e d y e s t e r d a y as 14 E x h i b i t 29? 1 5 A. Am I to turn to that? 16 Q. I would like you to turn to E x h i b i t 29, and 17 ask me if t h e y ' r e the s a m e fo u r g e n t l e m e n . 18 A. Do y o u r e c a l l w h i c h p a r a g r a p h it w a s ? 19 Q . Certainly, right here, the discussions and 20 t h e m e e t i n g . 21 A. Y e s , it was . It r e f e r s to d i s c u s s i o n the 22 e v e n i n g b e f o r e th e c o n f e r e n c e , a nd t h e r e f o r e , it was. 23 9. 24 A. And that is with these four g e n t l e m e n ? These are the four gentlemen. 25 9. Allright. ' Knipes-Cohen As'sociates Castleman.CERT001059 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 1 76 2 Do you have any -- wer e y o u t old by 3 any of t h e s e g e n t l e m e n what their f u n c t i o n s were, or 4 their d uties, or how were they o t h e r w i s e i d e n t i f i e d ? 5 A. I had a general feeling that the asbestos - 6 MR. MASON: Objection, that's not 7 r e s p o n s i v e . He asked, were you told. 8 BY MR . P A U L : 9 Q. You can answer -- you can answer the question, 1 0 Mr . H o rowi tz, you can go ahead and a n s w e r the q u e s t i o n . 11 A. Yeah. It's d i f f i c u l t for me to r e m e m b e r that 12 I was t o l d , but it was w r i t t e n in t h i s m e m o , a n d 13 t h e r e f o r e , I h a v e k n o w l e d g e of the f a c t t h a t t h e y w e r e 14 f r o m t h e A s b e s t o s R e s e a r c h C o u n c i l of E n g l a n d , and 15 my u n d e r s t a n d i n g was they were cons u l t a n t to the 1 6 T u r n e r -- or T u r n e r and N e w a l l p e o p l e , I t h o u g h t at 17 the t i m e . 18 Q. What was the s u b s t a n c e of your -- was the 19 s u b s t a n c e of y o u r c o n v e r s a t i o n w h a t a p p e a r s in E x h i b i t 20 29, a nd t h e d o c u m e n t t h a t I ju s t h a n d e d to y o u ? Do 21 t h o s e d o c u m e n t s a c c u r a t e l y s u m m a r i z e t h e s u b s t a n c e of 22 your c o n v e r s a t i o n s ? 23 A. T h e s u b s t a n c e of the c o n v e r s a t i o n is in the 24 d o c u m e n t w h i c h y ou just h a n d e d to me, w h i c h r e v i e w e d 25 the c o n f e r e n c e , a nd that m e e t i n g , i t s e l f , and I'd have Knipes-Co: hen A ssociates Castleman.CERT001060 1 Leon Horowitz - C r o s s 177 2 to look on E x h i b i t 29 to see w h e t h e r t h e r e is a 3 r e f e r e n c e to that. 4 Q. Here' s a n o t h e r copy of 29. 5 A. Do you h a v e a co p y , give me a c opy of y o u r s . 6 Q. H e r e ' s a copy of 29. 7 A. Y es, t h i s E x h i b i t 29 was my r e v i e w of the 8 similar m e eting and also Mr. S h a w 's paper; that's 9 correct. 1 0 MR. PAUL: I would like this document 11 that he i d e n t i f i e d m a r k e d as H o r o w i t z 30. 12 THE W I T N E S S : T h a t ' s C o n f e r e n c e on 13 B i o l o g i c a l Effects of Asbestos? 1 4 MR. PAUL: Yes, that's correct. 15 Can we go off the v i d e o t a p e for 1 6 a moment ? 17 MR. STEWART: We're now going off 18 t he r e c o r d . T h e t i m e is 1:31. 19 MR. PAUL: I wish to make a statement 20 for the stenographic record that I don't wish 21 to a p p e a r on the v i d e o t a p e , th a t is that the 22 line of q u e s t i o n s wh i c h I have been p u r s u i n g 23 for the last few m i n u t e s , that I will be p u r s u i n g 24 for the next few more, and the documents which 25 are being offered, are offered without any ------ * K nipes :---------------------------------------! -C ohen A ssociates Castieman.CERT001061 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 178 2 a t t e m p t or d e s i r e by us to w a i v e the 3 obje c t i o n to the entire deposition/, and 4 to i t ' s u s e at t r i a l , w h i c h Mr. S h e i n m a d e 5 yesterday. I want that clearly understood 6 for the record that this Cross Examination 7 is not in n e g a t i o n of our right to o b j e c t to 8 it. All right, we can go back. 9 MR . M A S O N : W ha t do you mean by the 10 documents now being offered. Are you 11 offering something into evidence now? 12 MR . P AUL : Well, 30, I just o f f e r e d . 13 t h e r e are go i n g to be a c o u p l e more. 14 MR . M A S O N : I object to that. 1 5 MR . P A U L : Y o u r ob j e c t i o n , as 16 a l w a y s , Mr. M a s o n , is n o t e d . 17 MR. MASON: You have not offered 18 a n y t h i n g other than 30 so far? 19 MR. PAUL: I wish to make this general 20 s t a t e m e n t , b e f o r e I o f f e r the r e m a i n d e r of 21 the documents. 22 23 24 MR. STEWART: We're now back on the 25 r e c o r d . T h e t i m e is 1 :33. Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT001062 1 Lon H o r o w i t z Cross 179 2 BY MR . P A U L : 3 Q. Now, Mr. H o r o w i t z , I now would like to show you 4 a n o t h e r d o c u m e n t , and I w o u l d like you to read it, 5 if you w o u l d . - ' 6 A. You want me to read the w h o l e d o c u m e n t ? 7 Q* No, I just want you to r e a d it to y o u r s e l f . 8 H a v e y o u -- h a v e y o u r e a d it 9 s u f f i c i e n t ly ? 10 A . I just want to finish the last p a r a g r a p h . 11 Q. Please. 12 A. Okay. 13 Q . Allright. 14 1 5 A. Yes. Now, do you r e c o g n i z e this d o c u m e n t ? 16 Q. W h a t is it, sir ? 17 A. It's a d o c u m e n t that I w r o t e r e p o r t i n g on my 18 a t t e n d a n c e at a m e e t i n g of the I n d u s t r i a l H y g i e n e 19 F o u n d a t i o n , now c a l l e d the I n d u s t r i a l H e a l t h F o u n d a t i o n , 20 I b e l i e v e , to Mr. M. S. D a v i s , w h o w as V i c e - P r e s i d e n t 21 of t h e P i p e D i v i s i o n . T h e m e e t i n g o c c u r r e d O c t o b e r 1 8 t h 22 and 1 9 t h , and I w r o t e the m e m o N o v e m b e r 2nd, 1966. 23 Q. 24 A. Is -- t h i s d o c u m e n t was p r e p a r e d by you, sir? Y e s , it was. 2 5 0. T h i s is a t r u e and c o r r e c t c o p y ? Knip es-Cohen A ssociates Gastieman.ctKiuuiU63 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 180 2 A. Yes, it is. 3 9. Was it in your p e r s o n a l file d u r i n g the time 4 that you were employed - 5 A. Y e s , it was. 6 9. 7 A. - - it w o u l d hav e b e e n in 1 966 by C e r t a i n t e e d ? Yes, it was. 8 9. Is t his also one of the d o c u m e n t s s u p p l i e d by 9 you to M s . . G i b s o n , a s a r e s u l t of the p r e v i o u s 10 d e p o s i t i o n ? 11 A. I b e l i e v e it was. ' 12 9. Yo u b e l i e v e it w a s ? 13 A. I b e l i e v e it was. I c a n ' t r e m e m b e r tha t thi 14 Pa r t i c u l a r d o c u m e n t was one of t h o s e . 1 5 9. B u t , you do reca l l p r e p a r i n g the m e m o r a n d u m ? 16 A. Oh, yes. 17 9. A n d , it was p r e p a r e d by y o u ? 18 A. Y e s , it w a s . 19 9. A n d , it was in y o u r f i l e ? 20 A . Y e s , it was. 21 9 . A n d , it was p r e p a r e d by y o u in th e c o u r s e of 22 your e m p l o y m e n t by Certai n t e e d ? 23 A. Y e s , it was. 24 9. Do you r e c a l l the m e e t i n g of the I n d u s t r i a l 25 H y g i e n e F o u n d a t i o n t h a t is r e f e r r e d to in t h i s Knip es-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT001064 1 Leon H o r o w i t z - C r o s s 181 2 memo randum? 3 A. The -- the memo, itself, reminds me of the 4 meeting. 5 Q. Do you have any i n d e p e n d e n t r e c o l l e c t i o n of 6 w ho e l s e was p r e s e n t at that m e e t i n g , or any o t h e r 7 p e r s o n s or c o m p a n i e s a p p e a r i n g t hrough r e p r e s e n t a t i v e s 8 p r e s e n t at that m e e t i n g ? 9 A. I don't have total recall. The memo, itself 1 0 w r i t t e n in 1966 refers to several peop l e , and that 11 r e m i n d s m e t h a t I m e t t h o s e p e o p l e t h e r e . O t h e r t h a n 12 t h a t , I c a n n o t r e c a l l . 13 MR. PAUL: Can we go off the record 14 for just a minute. 1 5 MR. STEWART: We're now going off the 16 r e c o r d . T h e t i m e is 1 :36. 17 We're now back on the record. The 18 t i m e is 1:37. 19 MR. PAUL: I would like the court 20 r e p o r t e r to mark this document that Mr. Horowitz 21 just i d e n t i f i e d as #31. 22 (Whereupon Exhibit #31 was marked for 23 i d e n t i f i c a t i o n p u r p o s e s , as of this date, 24 F e b r u a r y 2, 1 9 8 2 , by the court r e p o r t e r . ) 25 BY MR . P A U L : Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT001065 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 182 2 Q The -- I would like to show you, sir, a n o t h e r 3 d o c u m e n t . If you w o u l d read it. 4 A. It was w r i t t e n on O c t o b e r 30th, 1 9 6 7 by me to 5 Mr. A. A l p i n e . T h e s u b j e c t was . R e p o r t on B i o e f f e c t s 6 of A s b e s t o s at an I n d u s t r i a l H y g i e n e F o u n d a t i o n M e e t i n g , 7 at t he M e l l o n I n s t i t u t e on O c t o b e r 11, 1967. 8 Q. Now, be fore you g o o n , sir -- 9 A. Yes. 1 0 Q. -- who is Mr. A l p i n e ? 11 A. M r . A l p i n e , at t h a t ti me, was t h e C h i e f 12 E n g i n e e r of t h e P i p e D i v i s i o n , t o w h o m I w a s 13 a dm i n i s t rat i ve ly r e s p o n s i b l e t o . 14 Q . And, w a s this d o c u m e n t w r i 1 1 e n by you? 1 5 A. Y e s , it was. 16 Q . A n d , was it w r i t t e n by you i n the c o u r s e of 17 y o u r d u t i e s at C e r t a i n t e e d ? 18 A. It was w r i t t e n by me in the c o u r s e of my d u t i e s 1 9 at C e r t a i n t e e d . 20 Q. A n d , was a copy t h e r e o f , p l a c e d in y our files 21 t h a t y o u m a i n t a i n e d in y o u r o f f i c e ? 22 A. Y e s , it was. 23 Q . A n d , do y o u r e c a l l if t h i s d o c u m e n t is a m o n g 24 t h o s e w h i c h y o u p r o v i d e d to Ms. G i b s o n ? 25 A. I b e l i e v e it wa s , but I c a n ' t r e m e m b e r e x a c t l y . ; Knipes-Cohen A ss: ociates Castleman.CERT001066 1 2 Qv Leon Horowitz Cross 183 And, can you tell the Jury what the report 3 i n v o l v e s , what was the s u b j e c t of the r e p o r t ? 4 A. It was a r e p o r t to my s u p e r i o r s of w h a t I h e a r d 5 or d i s c o v e r e d at t h i s m e e t i n g , r e l a t i n g to p r o b l e m s in 6 our plant,in particular asbestos. 7 MR. PAUL: I would like to have this 8 m a r k e d as #32, H o r o w i t z 32. 9 (Whereupon Exhibit #32 was marked for TO i d e n t i f i c a t i o n p u r p o s e s , as of this date, 11 F e b r u a r y 2, 1982, by the court r e p o r t e r . ) 1 2 MR. PAUL: Thank you, very much, sir. 13 I have no further q u e s t i o n s . 14 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 15 MR. STEWART: Any other questions? 16 MS. GIBSON: Yes. - 17 BY M S . G I B S O N : 18 Q. Mr. H o r o w i t z , do you have any s p e c i f i c 19 knowledge about how Cassiar fiber was packaged during 20 the y e a r s 1960 to 1968? 21 A. I have no s p e c i f i c m e m o r y of that at all. 22 Q . Okay. 23 You weren't aware, were you, of all 24 c o m m u n i c a t i o n s that w e r e m a d e to e m p l o y e e s of K e a s b e y - 25 H a t t i son or C e r t a i n t e e d by f o r e m e n , p l a n t m a n a g e r s or : K nip es-C:-o-h--e-n---A--s-s-o-c-i-a-t-e-s---- Castleman.CERT001067 1 Leon Horowitz Redi rect 1 84 2 other p e r s o n n e l of those companies, were you? 3 A. I was not aware or p r i v y to that i n f o r m a t i o n . 4 MS. GIBSON: Okay, I have no other 5 questions. 6 BY MR . COHEN: 7 Q- Mr. H o r o w i t z , I just want to ask one q u e s t i o n 8 with r e g a r d to E x h i b i t #32. 9 A. Is that one of the new e x h i b i t s ? 10 Q. T h a t ' s one of the newer e x h i b i t s , yes, sir, that 11 M r . P a u l s h o w e d y o u . 12 A. Yeah. 13 Q. 14 A. It's Yes, October 30th - Ih a v e i t . 1 5 Q. m e m o r a n d u m that you p r e p a r e d . On the side 16 of the d o c u m e n t , at l e a s t the c o p y t h a t I h a v e , it's 17 not c o m p l e t e l y l e d g i b l e , t h e r e a p p e a r s to be s o m e 18 n o t a t i o n s . Do y o u h a v e a p h o t o g r a p h i c c o p y or a s i m u l 19 t a n e o u s l y p r o d u c e d copy of that e x h i b i t ? 20 A. I m i g h t have an o r i g i n a l copy at home, but I 21 d o n ' t - - I b r o u g h t o n l y c o p i e s of t h e e x h i b i t s t h a t 22 Mr. G a l l o said he w o u l d p r e s e n t . 23 t h a t . 24 Q . Okay. So, I don't have 25 Let me just ask you, -- Knip es-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT001068 1 Leon Horowitz Re c r os s 185 2 A. Yeah. 3 Q. -- do y o u r e c o g n i z e the h a n d w r i t i n g in the 4 margin? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Am I c o r r e c t it s a y s J. M . u s e s t e n - 1 5 p e r c e n t 7 crocidilite? 8 A. 9 Q. Yes. J.M. standing for what? 10 A. Johns-Hanvilie. 11 Q. And, can you read anything that appears 12 t h e r e a f t e r , or d o `y o u k n o w w h a t it s a y s of a n y i n d e p e n 13 d e n t k n o w l e d g e t h a t y o u h a v e ? 14 A. The next four small lines are not very clear, 1 5 m a y b e s o m e b o d y e l s e ' s c opy is c l e a r e r . Th e s t a t e m e n t 1 6 a f t e r t h a t , it s a y s , H u t c h c r o f t , the w o r d l o o k s like 17 s a w , t h e r e ' s no S t h e r e , but it l o o k s like saw t h i s , 18 and t h e n J . M . s o m e t h i n g a n d - - 19 Q. Well, something J.M. - 20 A. Or s o m e t h i n g c r o s s e d out,J. M . , recent, I think 21 it w a s , a f t e r t h a t , a n d s o m e t h i n g Fling Stock, R&D 22 B u i l d i n g , 1968, t h a t ' s about all I have. 23 THE COURT REPORTER: What comes 24 after that, something Pling? 25 THE WITNESS: Something P-L-I-N-G Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.ctkluulupy 1 Leon Horowitz - Recross 186 2 s t o c k . T h e w o r d , t h e b e g i n n i n g of t h e w o r d is 3 e r a s e d . And t h e n R&D B u i l d i n g , w h i c h is w h e r e 4 M r . H u t c h c r o f t w o r k e d , an d th e d a t e is 1/ 9 / 6 8 . 5 I t h i n k it r e f e r s to a v e r b a l c o n v e r s a t i o n I may 6 have had with Mr. Hutchcroft. 7 BY MR. COHEN: 8 Q. Now, when you wrote this p a r t i c u l a r n o t a t i o n on 9 the side of the m e m o r a n d u m , and I would like to ask now 1 0 on t he r e c o r d , if you w o u l d s o m e w h a t do the same t h i n g 11 o r r e p e a t a f u n c t i o n t h a t y o u d i d b e f o r e , a n d t h a t 12 i s w h e n y o u l e a v e t h i s d e p o s i t i o n a n d g o b a c k h o m e , 13 i f yo u w o u l d c h e c k y o u r r e c o r d s to d e t e r m i n e w h e t h e r 14 y ou h a v e an o r i g i n a l of t h i s , and w o u l d you be g o o d 1 5 e n o u g h to mak e that a v a i l a b l e to c o u n s e l with an 16 u n d e r s t a n d i n g that the o r i g i n a l w i l l : be r e t u r n e d to 17 you. We just -- I w o u l d like to get a c l e a r e r cop y - 18 MS. 6IBS0N: I may have a better 19 copy. I t h i n k I can read it. 20 MR. COHEN: Okay. Can I - 21 thank you . 22 THE WITNESS: These may have been 23 copied from that, right, and that may be a 24 copy f r o m - - 25 MR. COHEN: Yes, I can -- I can read K nipes-C ohen A ssociates _________ _______________________________________ :-----------;-----------------Castleman.CERT001070 1 Leon Horowitz - Recross 187 2 the copy that Ms. Gibson has given me somewhat 3 better. 4 THE WITNESS: Right. 5 MR . COHEN: 6 B u t , Let me s h o w it to y o u , b e c a u s e y o u ' r e the 7 one that a u t h o r e d it. 8 A. 9 9. Yes, that's much clearer. Okay. 1 0 11 A. Can you read that for the Jury? J.M. uses 10 to 15 p e r c e n t c r o c i d i l i t e . J.M. 12 s t o p p e d - - I c a n ' t r e a l l y r e a d t h a t w o r d , s t o p p e d , a n d 13 a n o t h e r w o r d , w h i c h I c a n ' t r e a d , s o m e t h i n g w h i t e , but 14 d e c i d e d to go back to s o m ething. H u t c h c r o f t saw 1 5 t h i s in J . M . 's r e c e n t c o u p l i n g s t o c k in R 8 D B u i l d i n g , 1 6 1/ 9/68. 17 So, a p p a r e n t l y , it was not a n o t e to 18 H u t c h c r o f t , b u t j u s t a n o t e to m y s e l f or - 19 Q . Okay. 20 Could I ask -- and with Ms. G i b s o n ' s 21 p e r m i s s i o n , c o u l d I g e t t h a t p a r t i c u l a r d o c u m e n t 22 c o p i e d to be p u t in a s t h e e x h i b i t f o r t h e d e p o s i t i o n , 23 and a g a i n , I w o u l d -- I w o u l d ask b e c a u s e t h e r e is some 24 n o n - c l a r i t y , if y o u c o u l d go b a c k to y o u r r e c o r d s and 25 c h e c k if y o u h a v e the o r i g i n a l a v a i l a b l e , if y o u c o u l d ....... .. .......................................... Knip es-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT001071- 1 Leon Horowitz - Reccoss 188 2 m a k e it a v a i l a b l e to C o u n s e l with an u n d e r s t a n d i n g , 3 w e ' l l tr y an d get as c l e a r a c o p y of it as p o s s i b l e and 4 r e t u r n it b a c k to you. 5 A. W h a t if I find t h i s a n d m a k e a -- one c o p y and 6 if my c o p y is c l e a r , p e n c i l it in so that f u t u r e 7 c o p i e s are c l e a r e r , w o u l d th a t be all r i g h t or s h o u l d 8 I not touch that? 9 Q. No, that might make -- I would p r e f e r not, that 10 c o u l d get i n t o c e r t a i n e v i d e n t i a r y q u e s t i o n s . 11 A. W e l l , I'll try _ m a k i n g a p h o t o c o p y . If I can 12 m a k e g o o d p h o t o c o p i e s , I ' l l do t h a t . 13 Q . Okay. 14 A. If not,I'll send, the o r i g i n a l , and h e ' l l send 1 5 it back to me. 16 Q . 17 A. 18 Okay. Mr.Gallo.Okay? MR. STEWART: Excuse me, gentlemen, 19 t h i s is the end of t a p e n u m b e r e i g h t . T h e 20 t ime is 1:46. 21 Thi s is the b e g i n n i n g of tape n umber 22 n i n e . T h e t i m e is 1 :47. 23 BY MR . COHEN: 24 Q . Mr. H o r o w i t z , ba s e d upon this n o t a t i o n , to the 25 e x t e n t we can r e a d it, or do yo u ha v e an y i n d e p e n d e n t K nipes-C ohen A ssociates --------------------------------------------CaslleiilaiI.CERT00T072 1 Leon Horowitz - R e c r o s s 189 2 recollection that Johns-Manville Corporation supplied 3 c r o c i d i l i t e , raw a s b e s t o s f i b e r , to K e a s b e y - H a t t i son, or 4 to Certai nt e e d C o r p o r a t ion? 5 MR. CREEDON: Objection. 6 7 BY MR. COHEN: THE WITNESS: I have no such informt io i 8 0. Do you know w h e t h e r this related to J o h n s - 9 M a n v i t i e ' s p r o d u c t i o n of a s b e s t o s cement pipe, which 10 it d i s t r i b u t e d ? 11 MR. CREEDON: Objection. 12 Q . Did you -- I'll rephrase the question. 13 In other words, this n o t a t i o n with 14 r e g a r d t o J o h n s - M a n v i l l e u s i n g t e n to. f i f t e e n p e r c e n t 1 5 c r o c i d i l i t e , with regard to a s b e s t o s cement pipe. Does 16 t h i s r e f e r to J o h n s - M a n v i lie's use of c r o c i d i l i t e for 17 its o w n a s b e s t o s p i p e t h a t it d i s t r i b u t e d , or - 18 A. It was i n f o r m a t i o n t h a t I p i c k e d up at a m e e t i n g 19 t h a t b e c a m e p u b l i c in that way, a n d I - 20 MR. CREEDON: Objection. 21 THE WITNESS: -- was given this 22 i n f o r m a t i o n to H u t c h c r o f t , who was our r e s ea r c h 23 man. 24 MR. C R E EDON: Move to strike the 25 answer. K nipes-C ohen A ssociates ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ^--------Castleman.CERTOO-1073 1 Leon Horowitz Re c r o s s 1 90 2 T H E W I T N E S S : - - who,- a p p a r e n t l y , 3 w o u l d have been i n t e r e s t e d in that. 4 MR . COHEN: Okay. 5 MR. CREEDON: Move to strike the 6 answer. 7 MR. COHEN: I have no furt h e r q u e s t i o n s . 8 M R. C R E E D O N : I wo u l d like to move to 9 strike all q u e s t i o n s and answers with regard to 10 t h a t d o c u m e n t , as b e i n g b e y o n d the s c o p e of 11 Direct Examination. 12 MR. COHEN: Well, this document wasn't 13 offered during Direct Examination, and - 1 4 MR. CREEDON: That's why I'm moving 1 5 to str i k e it. 1 6 MR. COHEN: Okay, well, I certainly 1 7 think to the extent that there's.a document 18 that has bearing on the witness' te s t i m o n y 19 t h a t w a s n o t p r o d u c e d aid t h r o u g h i n a d v e r t e n c e 20 I'm c e r t a i n l y not s u g g e s t i n g it was o t h e r w i s e , 21 or t h r o u g h m i s u n d e r s t a n d i n g or what not, we're 22 not b o u n d by that D i r e c t t e s t i m o n y , if the 23 document exists. 24 MR. CREEDON: Well, it's my position 25 that Counsel can limit his examination any way Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman:CERT00T074' 1 Leon Horowitz - Recross 191 2 he c h o s e s , and he did by not r e f e r r i n g to that 3 document, and, therefore, I'm objecting. 4 M R . C O H E N : W e l l , if -- if t he J u d g e 5 agrees with you, and these documents are not 6 a l l o w e d into e v i d e n c e , then I'm going to request 7 an i n s t r u c t i o n to the Jury that they may infer 8 that d o c u m e n t s and records not p r o duced or 9 admitted were not produced, which may become 1 0 a v a i l a b l e , there be an i n s t r u c t i o n to the Jury 11 t h a t t h o s e w o u l d be a d v e r s e to the i n t e r e s t of 12 the Party offering them. 13 MR. G A L L O : Just so the r e c o r d is 14 clear -- 1 5 MR. CREEDON: Well, I'd like the 1 6 r e c o r d to show that I'm not o f f e r i n g any of 17 these documents - 1 8 MR. COHEN: I'm saying by the P a r t y 1 9 who o f f e r s them. I a s s u m e t h e y ' r e going to be 20 o f f e r e d at some point. 21 MR. CREEDON: Well, I'm not offering 22 t h e m h e r e , so to t h e e x t e n t tha t it c a n ' t p o s s i b l y 23 r e f e r to my c l i e n t at t h i s p a r t i c u l a r t i m e . 24 And I -- neither did I offer the witness here 25 for examination. I did not call this witness. ----------:-------K--n--i-p-e-s---C--o-h-e-n---A--s-s-o-c--ia--te--s--- Castleman.CERT001075 _-- 1 Leon Horowitz - Recross 192 2 MR. P A U L : I also want to n o t e for the 3 r e c o r d that we join in Mr. C o h e n ' s a n s w e r to Mr. 4 Creedon's objection. 5 MR. GALLO: I would just like to note 6 for the record that I think that use of the 7 t e r m , p r o d u c e d , is i n c o r r e c t . T h e s e d o c u m e n t s 8 were not p r o d u c e d subject to any d i s c o v e r y 9 request by Pla i n t i f f s ' counsel, because 1 0 Plaintiff's counsel from any firm involved 11 in this d e p o s i t i o n , did not make any d i s c o v e r y 12 request, either request for production, 13 Interrogatories, prior discovery deposition 14 of the w i t n e s s , prior to being p r e s e n t to cross 1 5 e x a m i n e him at this trial d e p o s i t i o n . 1 6 S o , -" 17 M R . P A U L : We've had -- 18 M R . C O H E N : We've already -- we've . 19 already had that, and you can't ask for that, 20 w h i c h yo u were n e v e r g i v e n or made a w a r e of, 21 S O "" 22 MR. PAUL: We've had that argument 23 a l r e a d y on the record - 24 MR. C O H E N : R i g h t , l e t ' s not do it t w i c ; 25 MR. PAUL: - - a n d our position is, I K nipes-C ohen A ssociates ------------------------------------ :------------------------------Castleman.CERT001076 1 Leon Horowitz - Recross 193 2 think, relatively clear on both sides. 3 MR. G A L L O : As is mine. 4 M R . C O H E N : Mr. M a s o n , it l o o k s like 5 he's waited with baited breath. 6 BY MR . M A S O N : 7 Q. M r . H o r o w i t z , if -- so m y c o l l e g u e s' r e c o l l e c t i o n 8 is c o r r e c t , y e s t e r d a y you r e f e r r e d to Dr. Knox as being 9 " f r o m T u r n e r a n d N e w a l l , a n d if my r e c o l l e c t i o n is 10 c o r r e c t , a few m i n u t e s ago , y o u r e a d f r o m a d o c u m e n t 11 in w h i c h D r . H o r o w i t z - 12 A. Dr. Knox. 13 Q. -- Dr. Knox was d e s c r i b e d as a c o n s u l t a n t to 14 T u r n e r - N e w a l l . 15 A . Yes. 16 Q. Do you know Dr. Knox'exact r e l a t i o n s h i p with 17 T u r n e r - N e w a l l , or w h a t it w a s ? 18 A. It's apparent that I'm confused about that. 19 Q. Well, do you know what his relationship 20 w a s ? 21 A . I -- I don't know. There's -- 22 Q. I'm not asking you what you believe. 23 A. I don 't k n o w . 24 Q. What you know. 25 A. Okay. Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT001077 1 2 Q. Leon Horowitz Red i ree t 1 94 I g a t h e r as part of your r e s p o n s i b i l i t y to go 3 to m e e t i n g s of o r g a n i z a t i o n s like the I n d u s t r i a l Hygiene 4 F o u n d a t i o n ; is t h a t c o r r e c t ? 5 A. Yes, it was. 6 Q. And to read the r e p o r t s of m e e t i n g s of 7 o r g a n i z a t i o n s like that; is that c o r r e c t ? 8 A. To attend the discussions and make reports that 9 were p e r t i n e n t to our p r o b l e m s , to the company's 10 p r o b l e m s . 11 Q. W a s n ' t it a l so part of your r e s p o n s i b i l i t y to 12 r e a d l i t e r a t u r e ? 13 A. Oh,yes,definitely. 14 Q. T h a t came out of m e e t i n g s which you did n ' t 15 attend? 16 A. Yes, definitely. 17 Q. And, to attend those meetings and read the 18 l i t e r a t u r e , a n d to p a s s t h a t i n f o r m a t i o n on to m a n a g e 19 me n t of t he c o m p a n i e s for w h i c h you w o r k e d ; is that 20 c o r r e c t ? 21 A. I n f o r m a t i o n that was p e r t i n e n t to what I 22 t h o u g h t w e r e o u r p r o b l e m s , y e s . 23 Q. An d, t h o s e had to do, b a s i c a l l y , so far as I 24 h e a r d y o u r t e s t i m o n y , with dust c o n t r o l in the p l a n t s 25 was one; c o r r e c t ? --------------------------:-- :--------K---n--i-p--e-s----C--o--h--e-n----A---s-s--o-c--i-a--t-e-s---- Castleman.CERT001078-- 1 Leon Horowitz - Redirect 195 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And the o t h e r area, which seem e d to be an area 4 of your c o n c e n t r a t i o n was for the m e d i c a l p r o g r a m s , 5 for the employees - 6 A. E x p o s u r e s to all to x i c m a t e r i a l s of the 7 employees, yes. 8 Q. As they r e l a t e d to m e d i c a l p r o g r a m s for your 9 employees such as these annual physical examination s ? 10 A. As r e l a t e d to o c c u p a t i o n a l d i s e a s e which 11 r e l a t e d t o m e d i c a l p r o b l e m s . 12 9. Yes. 13 A . Yes . 14 Q. A n d , so, it was y o u r r e s p o n s i b i l i t y to s t a y 1 5 c u r r e n t on d e v e l o p m e n t s in the i n d u s t r i a l h y g i e n e 16 or e x p o s u r e a r e a ; is that r i g h t ? 17 A. It w a s my c h o i c e , a n d a c c e p t e d by m a n a g e m e n t , 18 to a c c e p t t h a t r e s p o n s i b i l i t y , yes . 1 9 Q. So, not j u s t y o u r c h o i c e , it was y o u r job; 20 right? 21 A. I wasn't hired for that. I -- I repeated that 22 s e v e r a l t i m e s . B u t , I c h o s e t o do i t , b e c a u s e it 23 a l l i e d w i t h d u s t c o n t r o l . So, t h e r e f o r e , I b e c a m e 24 the i n d u s t r i a l h y g i e n i s t for the c o m p a n y . So, t h e r e f o r e 25 it w as my r e s p o n s i b i l i t y , y e s . I ' m - - I ' m a c c e p t i n g it K nipes-Cohen A ssociates -----------------------------------------------------------Castleman.CERT001079-- 1 Leon Horowitz - Redirect 196 2 as a r e s p o n s i b i l i t y . 3 Q. Okay. 4 And, did you fulfill your responsi 5 b i l i t y , to the best of y o u r a b i l i t i e s ? 6 A. Without question. 7 Q. W e r e y o u at any t i m e d e p r i v e d of an y k n o w l e d g e 8 or i n f o r mation that you felt you should have gotten? 9 MR. COHEN: Objection. 10 MR. BRUCH: Objection. 11 MR. COHEN: That assumes you have 12 to be a w a r e of the t o t a l b o d y of k n o w l e d g e in 1 3 order to make the d e t e r m i n a t i o n as to whether 1 4 you're deprived. 1 5 MR. MASON: Well, I'm asking him 16 w h e t h e r he e v e r felt he had be e n d e p r i v e d of 17 any k n o w l e d g e or i n f o r m a t i o n , w h i c h he felt 18 he s h o u l d have g o t t e n . 19 MR. BRUCH: I object to that q u e s t i o n 20 b e c a u s e he u s e d th e w o r d f e l t . T h i s is a man 21 that t e s t i f i e s to what he knows or d o e s n ' t know, 22 notwhathefeels. 23 BY MR . - M A S O N : 24 Q . Go a h e a d , we've had these little c o l l o q u i e s 25 b e f o r e , and Mr. C o h e n has s a i d , go a h e a d and a n s w e r : Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT001080 1 Leon Horowitz Redi rect 1 97 2 the question. 3 MR . COHEN: Mr. Cohen did not say 4 that . I just -- I o b j e c t e d to the form o f 5 the question. 6 THE W I T N E S S : From the c a p a c i t y o f 7 i n d u s t r i a l h y g i e n e expert for both of these 8 c o m p a n i e s , I felt free to go to any m e e t i n g 9 I c h o s e that I t h o u g h t was p e r t i n e n t to our 1 0 p r o b l e m s , and I was a s s i g n e d d u t i e s on 11 c o m m i t t e e s , w h i c h -- in w h i c h I r e p r e s e n t e d 12 the company, where these problems were 13 covered, right. 14 Does that answer your question? 15 MR . M A S O N : No, sir, it d o e s n ' t . 16 BY MR, M A S O N : 17 Q. W e r e you e v e r c o n s t r a i n e d in an y w a y by y o u r 18 e m p l o y e r s f r o m g o i n g out a n d s e e k i n g w h a t e v e r i n f o r m a 19 t ion was a v a i l a b l e ? 20 MR. PAUL: O b j e c t to t h a t , too. 21 THE WITNESS: I was never constrained 22 from that, n o . 23 BY M R. M A S O N : 24 Q. You were not con s t r a i n e d ? 25 A. Notthatlknowof. K nipes-C ohen A ssociates ------------------------------------------------------- :---------------- :-------- Castleman.CbRI00108T 1 Leon Horowitz - Redirect. 1 98 2 BY MR. MASON: 3 Q. You were free to go get whatever i n f o r m a t i o n 4 you t h o u g h t y o u s h o u l d o b t a i n ; is t h a t r i g h t ? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. R e g a r d l e s s 0 f its s o u r c e , no one said, don't 7 go here or d o n ' t go t h e r e . did they 7 8 A. Never -- n e v e r did I ask to go or look for 9 s o m e t h ing, where I was told I shouldn't go. 1 O MR . MASON: T h a t ' s all I have - 11 MR . GALLO: I have a n o t h e r q u e s t i o n 12 or two. Any oth e r s before I go ? 13 MR . S T E WART: This cone ludes the 14 deposition -- 1 5 MR. GALLO: W a i t - - 16 THE WITNESS: There's another 17 question. 18 MR . C O H E N : You can c o n c l u d e it, if 19 y o u w a n t . W e ' ll j u s t do t h i s as an e p i l o g u e 20 BY MR. G A LLO: 21 Q . Mr . H o r o w i tz, you s p o k e e a r lier in r e s p o n s e 22 M r . C o h e n ' s q u e s t i on, a b o u t t h e t h r e s h o l d limit: 23 v a l u e , as it r e l a t e d to t h e c o n c e r n a b o u t c a n c e r . ' - 24 A. Yes m 25 Q . A n d -- Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT001082 1 Leon Horowitz - Redirect 1 99 2 MR. COHEN: Not m e s o t h e l i o m a 3 3Y MR. G A L L O 4 . And, at the time, you gave y o u r t e s t i m o n y , 5 [ b e l i e v e you w e r e s p e a k i n g in the p r e s e n t t e n s e ; 6 Jo y o u r e c a l l t h a t ? 7 { I made r e f e r e n c e , the d i s c u s s i o n at the time 8 tad to do w i t h the t h r e s h o l d l i mits r e l a t i n g to c a n c e r 9 ind m e s o t h e l i o m a . A n d I m a d e r e f e r e n c e to the fact 1 0 :hat the idea or the c o n c e p t of t h r e s h o l d limit had 11 io r e a l r e l a t i o n s h i p to c a n c e r , b u t in a c t u a l i t y , as 12 ar as a s b e s t o s is g o e s , lung c a n c e r is a s s o c i a t e d wit h 13 s b e s t o s i s and is a dose r e l a t i o n s h i p w h i l e 14 e s o t h e l i o m a is not . So, I was a l i t t l e c o n f u s e d 15 here, as far as I'm c o n c e r n e d , the t h r e s h o l d limit 16 a l u e w h i c h is -- t h e r e are still a t h r e s h o l d limit 17 alue, and apparently, the people who make the 18 ecision to keep that threshold limit value, have decided 19 hat t h a t v a l u e , if p e o p l e w e r e e x p o s e d to less t h a n 20 hat value, they would not also get the cancer, I believ; 21 M R . C O H E N : I object -- excuse me, 22 I o b j e c t to the a n s w e r as given. I r ecall only 23 for -- well, he's s p e c u l a t i n g as to what someone 24 e l s e p e r c e i v e s or t h i n k s . So, I o b j e c t to it 25 o n t h a t basis. "" --Knipes-Cohen Associate^s Castleman.ctKluuiU83 1 Leon Horowitz Redi rect 200 2 MR. PAUL: Also object 3 he has b e e n u n q u a l i f i e d as an e x p e r t - - 4 THE COURT REPORTER: He's been 5 unqualified - 6 MR. PAUL: As an e x p e r t . And is not 7 o f f e r e d as an e x p e r t , as well as in Mr. . 8 G a l l o ' s o f f e r or proof. 9 BY MR. GALLO: 1 0 9. Mr. Horowitz, between the years 1960 and 1968, 11 w h e n y o u w e r e e m p l o y e d by K e a s b e y a n d M a t t i s o n a n d 12 Certainteed, and after you became aware that there 13 had b e e n w r i t i n g s c o n c e r n i n g a r i s k of c a n c e r f l o w i n g 14 f r o m a s b e s t o s e x p o s u r e , w a s it b e l i e v e d t h a t t h a t r i s k 15 of canc e r only e x i s t e d for those who a l r e a d y got 16 asbestosis? 17 MR. COHEN: Objection, you say was 18 it b e l i e v e d , w h e n , by w hom. 19 BY MR. GALLO: I have no idea. 20 <3. Did you believe -- 21 MR. PAUL: It's not part of your 22 offer of proof, Mr. Gallo, I also object. 23 MR. GALLO: Let me -- let me state 24 the q u e s t i o n again so that the r ecord will be 25 clear. ' Knipes-C'ohe: n Associates castleman.CERT001084 1 Leon Horowitz Redi rect 201 2 BY MR. GALLO: 3 Q During the years, sir, that you worked for 4 Keasbey and Mattison and Certainteed and after you 5 became aware of certain s u s p i c i o n s c o n c e r n i n g a risk 6 of cancer from asbestos exposure, did you believe that 7 the risk existed only for those who first developed 8 asbestos is? 9 A- I -- I think I would answer that and say that the/ 1 0 w e r e b o t h d o s e r e l a t e d , a s b e s t o s -- a s b e s t o s is is 11 r e l a t e d t o t i m e s , t i m e e x p o s u r e , a n d i n d i v i d u a l ' s 12 s u s c e p t i b i l i t y a n d so is c a n c e r . In e s s e n c e , my 13 b e l i e f w a s t h a t if d i s c o v e r a b l e , a p a t i e n t w o u l d h a v e 14 a s b e s t o s i s a n d / o r c a n c e r , if he h a d c a n c e r , but not 15 cancer alone without asbe s t o s i s . But, I am not - 16 t h a t ' s a m e d i c a l o p i n i o n , an d I -- 17 MR. PAUL: Move to s t r i k e the e n t i r e 18 answer. 19 20 BY MR. G A L L O : MR. COHEN: Right. 21 Did you b e l i e v e that in c o n t r o l l i n g the dust 22 c o u n t s t o w i t h i n t h e t h r e s h o l d l i m i t v a l u e f o r 23 a s b e s t o s i s , t h a t s u c h c o n t r o l w o u l d a l s o s e r v e to 24 p r e v e n t the f u r t h e r d e v e l o p m e n t of c a n c e r ? 25 A- In the a b s e n c e of any ot h e r i n f o r m a t i o n from the Knipes-Cohen Associates 'Castieman.CERT00l085 1 Leon Horowitz - Redirect 202 2 people who set these t h reshold limits, yes, I did 3 believe that 4 MR. GALLO: Thank you. That's all 5 I have. 6 MR. STEWART: Any further questions? 7 8 BY MR. COHEN: MR. COHEN: Yes. 9 Q Mr. H o r o w i t z , is it y o u r s t a t e m e n t t h a t 1 0 u n l e s s an i n d u s t r i a l h y g i e n e gr o u p said to you, 11 p e r s o n a l l y , t h a t t h e r e w a s o r w a s n o t a r e l a t i o n s h i p 12 between t h r e s h o l d limit value and cancer, that 13 y o u w e r e n o t g o i n g *- t h a t y o u w e r e g o i n g to 14 d i s r e g a r d o t h e r i n f o r m a t i o n t h a t was a v a i l a b l e in 15 the scientific and medical literature? 16 A . My p r a c t i c e , and I b e l i e v e th p r a c t i c e of 17 e v e r y r e s p o n s i b l e i n d u s t r i a l h y g i e n i s t was -- 18 Q Let me ask you, if y ou w o u l d , l i m i t e d -- 19 A. L i m i t e d to my p r a c t i c e . 20 Q L i m i t e d to your p r a c t i c e since you can't speak 21 f o r e v e r y i n d u s t r i a l h y g i e n i s t . 22 MR. GALLO: Would you please restate 23 the whole question? 24 THE W I T N E S S : Yes, r e s t a t e it. 25 MR. COHEN: Sure. Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT001086 1 Leon Horowitz Recross 203 2 3Y MR. COHEN: 3 2- My q u e s t i o n is, wa s it y o u r b e l i e f t h a t u n l e s s 4 3 m 6 a 9 e " ` y t h a t d e a l t wi t h i n d u s t r i a l h y g i e n e were 5 :o c o m e d o w n w i t h a f i n a l w o r d , y e s or n o , a s t o 6 fhether there was a relationship between TLV and the 7 leve l o p m e n t of c a n c e r , t h a t no such r e l a t i o n s h i p 8 xisted? 9 MR. BRUCH: Objection. 1 0 THE WITNESS: I would change your 11 question and say, would I accept the studies 12 of i n d i v i d u a l s if the c o m m u n i t y that sets the 13 threshold limits has not changed their threshold 14 based on the studies that other people, 1 5 individuals have made. I will wait until that 16 responsible organization makes that decision, 1 7 yes. 18 MR . COHEN: 1 9 No m a t t e r how lng t hat t a k e s ? 20 No matt e r how 1n 9 That t * | i # . I have no 21 3 s p o n i b i t i t y a s an i n d i v i d u a l to c h o o s e , to pick and 22 l o o s e w h o I w a n t to b e l i e v e and who I d o n ' t want to 23 lieve. 24 Do you b e l i e v e that you had a r e s p o n s i b i l i t y , 25 h o u g h . to r e p o r t the e x i s t e n c e of o p i n i o n s w h e t h e r K nipes-Cohen A ssocia-t-e-s---- Ca5lleman.GERT001087 1 Leon Horowitz - Re c r os s 204 2 a d o p t e d by a G o v e r n m e n t a l h y g i e n i s t g r o u p or not, 3 that a p e r s o n might get asbes -- might get can c e r or 4 m e s o t h e l i o m a , i r r e s p e c t i v e of the a m o u n t of f i b e r 5 that that person was exposed to? 6 A. Yes,Ido. 7 MR. GALLO: Objection. . 8 BY MR. COHEN: 9 Q. A n d , y o u d i d so r e p o r t t h a t ; d i d y o u not: ? 1 0 A. I did so report to those that I was 11 r e s p o n s i b l e to. 12 MR . COHEN: I have nothing further 13 MR. STEWART: This conelud es the 14 d e p o s i t i o n . The t i m e is 2 : 0 3 m 1 5 1 6 (Witness excused.) 17 (Whereupon the videotape deposition 18 w a s c o n c l u d e d at 2 : 0 3 p . m . ) 1 9 20 21 R E P O R T E D B Y : 22 Suzanne McLaughlin White, Registered Professional Reporter Notary Public 23 T Y P I S T : M a r g a r e t E. B e l z a 24 25 Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CtRI001088 1 205 2 3 CERTIFICATE 4 C o m m o n w e a l t h of P e n n s y l v a n i a : 5 : SS 6 Cou n t y of P h i l a d e l p h i a : 7 8 1/ S u z a n n e M c L a u g h l i n W h i t e , N o t a r y 9 P u b l i c w i t h i n and for the C o u n t y of P h i l a d e l p h i a , 10 C o m m o n w e a l t h of P e n n s y l v a n i a , do h e r e b y c e r t i f y that 11 t h e f o r e g o i n g d e p o s i t i o n of L E O N H O R O W I T Z , w a s 12 t a k e n p u r s u a n t t o n o t i c e at t h e o f f i c e s of K N I P E S - 13 C O H E N A S S O C I A T E S , 4 0 0 M a r k e t S t r e e t , P h i l a d e l p h i a , 14 P e n n s y l v a n i a , on T u e s d a y , F e b r u a r y 2, 1 9 8 2 ; tha t s aid 1 5 w i t n e s s was d u l y sworn b e f o r e the c o m m e n c e m e n t of his 16 t e s t i m o n y ; t h a t the t e s t i m o n y of s a i d w i t n e s s was 17 w r i t t e n in s h o r t h a n d by m y s e l f and r e d u c e d to t y p i n g 18 u n d e r my d i r e c t i o n a n d c o n t r o l ; t h a t t h e f o r e g o i n g is 19 a t r u e a n d c o r r e c t t r a n s c r i p t i o n of the t e s t i m o n y ; 20 t h a t I a m n o t r e l a t e d to or e m p l o y e d by a n y of t h e 21 p a r t i e s , or t h e i r a t t o r n e y s or a g e n t s , or i n t e r e s t e d 22 d i r e c t l y o r i n d i r e c t l y in t h e m a t t e r in c o n t r o v e r s y 23 e i t h e r as c o u n s e l , a t t o r n e y , a g e n t or. o t h e r w i s e . 24 25 Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT00108 1 206 2 3 IN TESTIMONY WHEREOF, I have hereunto 4 s e t m y h a n d a n d a f f i x e d m y s e a l of o f f i c e a ty 5 P h i l a d e l p h i a , in said C o u n t y , this day of 6 February, 1982. 7 8 9 1 0 11 NOTARY PUBLIC 12 13 14 wo'OifaTiriTv Puhn,10,Phil, fr\l 1 5 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Knipes-Cohen A ss:ociates Castleman.CERT001090 1 207 2 3 I HAVE READ THE FOREGOING DEPOSITION 4 AN D T HE A N S W E R S G I V E N BY ME ARE T R U E AND C O R R E C T 5 TO THE BEST OF MY K N O W L E D G E , I N F O R M A T I O N AND 6 BELIEF. 7 8 9 1 0 11 SIG NATURE 12 13 1 4 1 5 16 W I T N E S S TO S I G N A T U R E 17 18 19 20 A D D R E S S 21 22 23 24 25 Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT001091 3 o Ambler R esearch C. R. H u tch cro ft Nov. 3 , 1964 A m bler R&D , CE of fnefce rtes n- oc ef AonsbBe sitoolso g-icNaelw Y. o ' M. C. Shaw /radp " ' / COc NFER. ENNCEewOYN rBkIOLAOcGadICemAyL oEFf FESCcTieSn cOeFs ASBESTOS o e cNt leown Yoofrk BCioitlyo g-ic Oa lc taonbde r M1e9d-i2c1a,l S19c6ie4n c e s C onference on the B io lo g ical E ffects o f A sbestos 2 p 1 a t h o l o g i s t s--, a s b e s t ob sYO- afcoi tbmo ee b e r r 2 a0 1 u0 9.t mh toeh drr ioitcuiaegl h s a aWunt edh d. ona erisirtdiaehyay, . gaOinecdnt o i . sb te.sr Tr S U ar? f OU5NteP" l ;y ^s r 5 on S undaYthaef tewr noorlodn. , MO cr.toHb eor r o18S, i tazn^dd ' i m m e d iatel 3hf y 3 t c f o s nCt ao mc tpeadn y c we hr o t a iwn e r e o f I n t h oa tstee nmd eamn bc ee r s r eo pf r eTsuernn tei r n gB r o - |r d i r e c t e r L 06^ ^ ^ ^ *Frv at hs as ot chi aa vt ieo nb e eann d a cthheie vaepdp ltihcraotui og nh othi e p er of fpoe rr t sc oonft r ot hl si s fyS ? ? ? ? 1 dd ilttiion ni =s n?thhraorug? hh o ultavteh ea ear rsebde s ttoo s pirnodvuidset rPym airnk etdhlya t imrmpmrofvmed- c ^ aAnsdb eths teo smisemRbeesrse ahrcahv e Caocucnocmilp lwisahse de Sai agb rlel lahte Sd ela^l ao^fS gSoodd^ Ad u r1i n* g7 th e p e rio d sin c e th a t tim e. I t was f e l t by many t h a t ^ h ? ^ ^ $ ?^ k e80rV ae c caoo map lriasehdmlurean tfso. r WP o- ocdolanitma citneid anandd d teaml oknesdtrTMo W ^^ IH ^oa B elting b e e n p e " o " S f 't h e Ko r " i n r TM ? a n t fc had sf ee rr ve ne dc e toby a rBoeuvseeraol uhr u snudsrepdic inoenwsspaasp etros tihn e Atmr Ser^icna t Sannd t a ob rfo athd io c u a a iS S a ^ f o ld c d .eU SPl0l0nS Were o o n flrn e a " 0 v a rio u s d ia - Castleman.CERT001092 '>V'Vf>-.>'rt'V;p-`''.T,'.-Tl..'v V '\M - ' ' .'p r`^.-v> \"v;;.,. ' \\ ' 1 ,;>:< " - .'. : v jA prfc A `25*=-.*}Vv A-V..'> V - ''***.'* *. ' -A: , <: ' >.. " * i; ` V. '.1- . -tJt :J*-v 'A. - :* V ".i -J>>y.*-":, f,\ :a.rt*.*.:*:*'*?C. :;.. .. ; .* V'S'* .. ' V ? ` .*/ '. /'V - V :- i " -2- ^V *'it 7? j*/` "N SSSuSsSa ,, - j a g s s & s S B u n a & f i . v ^ " "kv:''' ' : '. ... a .' ,.'. ' ' A :& s M V . jf^ Pj^oXogiai!discussions obapiste with SSSS5 r? y\ y\..;.;?,;s .;,. * . V . _ . s i w 'of t h 6 cases and observations that were' <{5%Ss%iSSt8ef,f^!asg^gua&.:sB rjsarsi5n' >;'V' ;*^ * ; ^ ^ ;nei?u^txftthoaotdtwheBredonskoeyasf,fltihctfedd.^^S "S * evv^antht.he K ra e & x ln .ia^ai^..wh4t c e u & ^ a - a -- 5i resided near a n i s b e s t o s l ^ t o ^ ?*? 2ve? w a y from m t area. 5Ventr years7 ' 7 a n tl t o ^ i f d rL S ] l l i lopS ^ a maothe3^ al tumor,- induced by e x - ` * - S l r i S ? b i 2 iSj?'iS81i0i.0adnyo%ti.hyiu*Pptahret^ 1ora the countroyf atrnidi-a ' A'-v';-*^^.-,.v.-**Jxoa.,n^.f'*o*u*n.,d to.*. _bvel-*su,f*ferin.g a .s.imi..?'lar .fate. . l' * ...' .^popfcM that the aaount of aabeetoe ~fc neceBeartly the lmpop- , fS ^^vS 1 *.'.:; .-. ... K:f+! ' :*>; " 'v . :;. ' ^ . ?.f..^ *. ; -v*'*:{. * S k l 0?4*18? ^ 111 fot` th* ^^m^aSuvef davelopnent of s malady, and <5 TM m t 111 * h u M n b ^ **sr that" yo ""<..' .'a , : ^ V v '- is- ' Castleman.CERT001093- M 2/ Th2inson s p o r t e d that the inhalation of aabeatoa fibers by urban dwellers is very similar in CantefcoTM * Africa and in Miami, Florida. No less than 3* I T t l T * * both cities showed as bast os bodies if to 'speouiated" that th= Mbeotos'contamination Mlaloalr waa Induced by automobile brake =:?*. ta p ^ ^ 5 S ^ ^ * 1J S aS S S S 5 ^ - i i a- i did not realize how they were b e i ^ u a L m ^ ? ? ? ' 1 feel, underway While it -is n .-- j .. ^ used until the session was conference developed that the role oC v asbesto^lS ; 1? carcinogenic effect of aabestca rfbera C ^ c t r ^ P ^ S? on ths ~ s s.s;s" p,2;t;s^L-ssnrs:-1" et0r n i t ^ ri r h^^dy this connection the entrance of asbestos fibers inf-n ih.*K T 1 " 5^ `M i b~ ^ S J t2|-tl" -. ^ * I n g e ^ n ^ r o u g h nMor.th ^SSmi^tho offfJeohTnsc-M^anlviS v'i V^ rL TM" ? ?Sinneessrt' SMr.? HVousfh,Ca`nPdS Dr".bsKaet0n8-; Itrrner Brother*^ M b e ^ S c C o ^ p ^ e i e l a i l o n ^ d ^ TM Df th* d S S 5 ? i " S a ? H thV ei'i0U3 ^ o a t l o S c ^ " n v o i i b d ^ W i n " - ? i o n c % r f L ; i V t h r TM t . i f S ^ o a c o u.w ? * * a o a e & S " - have been p n e s . % ^ T d S p ^ ! ^ 1 aAcvd. l fIf eI7^ntcliIattliSoni e booS.r-SB2addne t bSeit)-mwe"ent t^he" af<aJcetMa<n1d" fice tqiuona t i oTnh M d ia 1 c d 8to :^ ` i S ' ^ ^ . l d S i t l S i Castleman.CERT001094 :>\*v . " -*- * . * ti"le the A /c binuueah ijneorea ^ v5oS S?j u^n^ ^ . P 1? a13s1b0"estoWs tteox 2ed effort in this renard bv imagine that some organ d0 forthcoming,-. Cartain^teed J 8e5^ent of the industry will fort to prvida maximum safetv aTv** o** course, make every ef- t hh a0?t 8 *th.e^ ethf ef e mc tas n uoffa catnuyr.inSg vo Sp L^^ nt i o i^S "i <1^?ow tsdvueBr't c ^ o u nt o mc a o ntdoi - me ^ " be f e l t m ore p o te n tly in out* n s i ^ ^ i c i t y in th is re g a rd w ill that asbestos fibers7may be placed ?*?* ' implication S ' & `SK%'r^-wasRg%r human being. u a wator borne and in g ested by a ht ha va et wto i lcl cdmislpSr^o^ver eseu cs hr ^c l faei s^t a b liits h^! ct ha e s ? ov ^ e B ra11 tory i nr edcuosrtdr y f wi l i l l yond th e f in a n c ia l and n e r n o S li 11 to ** th a t i t is be htoa s tabce ekni e e ssut acbh l ias hperdX axnJdT pSroSvSeA* 1 ^ 7 o *n * *th eonwe ocrko ^tahnayt l1o^ -ge d i c ianl ldyu, s tarni d a l mi no trear lesj tos ' eanl o t ^ J u l h f * U n ean*d t hc oa to paerraa tel e gwaitchy .a l - _v. **r*ais>.^ Castleman.CERT0Q1095 **blr Pipe Admin, Mr, M. 8 , D evil MInadsutisntgr,iaOl cHtoybgeiren1e8F&ou1n9d.at1io9n6ft <S> 3f . *2rrKMj-~' Amblar Safety Hoveaber 2, 1966 L. D, Horowita - ap ; ;x vL P*P6r PProPg*rramU th.taUt ctihwed Intodutshtrl,iarl SHJvraTian* * -b ito r^ s iT "* 'tla 3 " * " >> Dr. Grow' GjS!?i r*r *Di*re-ctorA oCfOptyhao iRUese*arch u r^ 00 th* r - > stiil,icSoOn -ccaalrlobdide"ciunrtioout.hteoirdlMlun^tttas'laDOM to^rTi."sTMa l!*al^ai'`CbfFa intltaro^ducptrioocniuocofd "curious bodies" which o t iia r ^ S w i? ^ 8?0*68 t?frafor that these - * -- - t a ? s i 2 r u iS b i s . , f bodi" B Dhovl v. tloa Ue n^t eorfe'^dM. wrker. ,, p<1iUi1i.^p"a .^p0Hgct"S. UT^ h . g t JuS l Si if?rbST Lf D"lr**^to t U H oWf*th1* TMi t w om, ong iyslMlono l7, tmml. cutb, o. rittloau, ,aayy crme mbll. cttma t. byS b L^ . d. u1! "2 ! ' ! * ?"k i<U=d.lp- h l., sources. Fortunately he did not ea" nf oth** p ossib le b. forthcesalng coneld.rtog th . probInfISL bl" d .p .^ ! ? ; eg l apsrsopaonsded m eting. ' lusntugdcya nbyc eHr.ew Y1I o*br*kelliiUoVnvaiv a^r sitv**o*f*** r^a^irDL8`hCip* bcoetnwceeernninfigb m represented at this e r A tt. Castleman.CERT001096 Ambler Pipe Admin. Mr. A. B. Alpine October 30, 1967 Ambler Safety sec below L. D. Horowitz ap SUbjM t! .port on B io .ff . o t ,, f t u b . o . I n d u Byglan. P o r t i o n --...................................... Mellon In stitu te October 11. 1967 ccj Mr. M. S. Davie > Ambler ,, ..tin * 6 The paper en titled "Asbestos Bodies and B ioeffecte - A D etective storv fshh^ouulldd ddoo oLicchh tSo MreIddGuc*eDUthhel8em fot.tihon8aAl 8abtme8ot0sp*hereseasurrcrhouCnoduinngcilthinis Esnugblajnedct. The paper in b rief covered the following: r o ' l S " " 1 "rd CVerln8 *PM lflC t5,pe*- Ih i t~ r type. -`A,-- ttT^ C rocid ilita A V' U J . ! .J * ,l 'V ' K - Chrysotile AmositG Anthophyllite " of fiber tn used"1"inedasbeSstooust-hceAmfernictap, ipmekmaanuupfaacbtouurte. 201 " of fiber usedTin* *asbf nedstoSso-ucehmAenftripcaip manuufapcttuhree. rest From South A frica. - M t very importea t. . y5 . -I dofisethaese exposure*^ i e * hifahbVn ^*"*"* *""`f" "thI*ft8'b*e- toWa 3 cx*K>8ure &nd W t h in'dtustryH aunedluIst da wfuinthction of time w ill produce the '"*Vt ifkl ^iJ,l^A\.c> for asbestCo*sTwciRorOkme2rsesxupiotssedf'rtoomaclilgatyrpeetsteosfmaoskbinegftaonsd. is also do** rU t d K %, D ^ j MaBothelioga, a rare tumor, e ffe c ts the ca ll# lin in a the cheat or i-h. .1 Hilt aid p .py.arsw*i*lfli.sbioawtQdthin SIot u1th. Anoftric,,a.owc UithtoCdrowciitdhilitya S(Blu,e Asbestos) H istorical Information B efo r e 1918 - Very l i t t l e was reported on the health aspects of asbestos. \ 1924 - cook reported curious bodies in lung*. Slides showed what was ith S b !.? c U **l f d*ription of bodies in the lung associated bI*i "r a brOWn Color *4 Clubbed ends o f a long body and tha body of the particle segmented sometimes. H-ii \ . !$* Cstmn.CRfo0-1'07 .":-j m Mr. A. E. Alpine fi v . ... - 2- October 30, 1967 1929 r 'rtth dii " : TM " . S `s r s . r s s i =T I960 - Wegner In South Afrlce reported H o .o th .lto ...o c la te d vlth lived in the mining o r .. . or on l i th0U8 ttoir 19M fX fo n lu ^ ." - 1 ~ "< 1965 ` S d t o T ^ U , : 1* f P U t,b U r8 i POPUUt1" " * * These stu d ies received much p u b licity. They suggested a o e se ib n ^ - 0017 500 c M t j ^ i T t e r " * co co" to such 6 p opulation. 5 % rH"`"SU ltnSS lSnT* " S* Ui 1" C ro cl,!b"ott t g* r"..td.rc Mthauni thp. ugye.nd."r.1 : " ^ u ^ u d . " ' *PMl1C r " bMt* - " V - M t a - ound nr < a8be*toa ^ d i a s under the electron microscope with a ferritin or hemocidrin coating and clubbed ends with segmentation. ferritin tb ,t th" ` b* C*Uod "'.r r lsln o u . bodle." b .o .u .e o f th . VPaltrhrigi.nbo.u.at ob. oudinesi..i.nptoh.eltllvu.nlgys. oIdf etnhteifigeedneurnadl eprueblliec ccat n^noLt ^be. " ^ associated thinMrfuw" .1'" pubU,h,!d ln th* '" rn.l of Snvtroontl Hedtcln. in Castleman.CERT001098