Document KRk0nYVkXe7Ka0Qyer9d6zNXK

1 SUPREME COURT OF THE STATE OF NEW YORK COUNTY OF NEW YORK 2 IN RE: NEW YORK CITY ASBESTOS LITIGATION 3 4 THIS DOCUMENT RELATES TO ALL WEITZ & LUXENBERG CASES IN WHICH GEORGIA-PACIFIC, LLC, IS A 5 DEFENDANT. 6 7 8 9 10 11 DEPOSITION OF STEWART E. HOLM 12 JUNE 6, 2011 9:33 A.M. 13 14 15 16 17 KING & SPALDING 18 1180 PEACHTREE STREET SUITE 1600 19 ATLANTA, GEORGIA 20 21 22 23 24 Reported By 25 Jennifer Ammerman, RPR, CSR-2656 Page 1 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 A P P E A R A N C E S: 2 3 4 On Behalf of the Plaintiffs: 5 Weitz & Luxenberg, PC BY: JERRY KRISTAL,ESQ. 6 200 Lake Drive East Suite 205 7 Cherry Hill, New Jersey 08002 856-755-1115 8 jkristal@weitzlux.com 9 10 On Behalf of the Defendant: 11 King & Spalding BY: RICHARD A. SCHNEIDER, ESQ. 12 1180 Peachtree Street Suite 1600 13 Atlanta, Georgia 30309 404-572-4889 14 dschneider@kslaw.com 15 Lynch, Daskal & Emery, LLP 16 BY: SCOTT EMERY, ESQ. 264 West 40th Street 17 New York, New York 10018 212-302-3400 18 emery@lawlynch.com 19 Also Present: John C. Childs, Esq. 20 Safaa Sammander, Videographer 21 22 23 24 25 Page 2 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 Page 3 1 INDEX 2 3 WITNESS 4 JOHN E. HOLM 5 EXAMINATION BY MR. KRISTAL: MR. SCHNEIDER: PAGE 6 __ 6 7 EXHIBITS 8 HOLM PAGE 9 Exhibit-1 10 8/22/2005 Correspondence...................................................... 14 11 Exhibit-2 12 Web Site Document........................................................................... 82 13 Exhibit-3 14 Curriculum Vitae.............................................................................. 82 15 Exhibit-4 16 8/21/2007 Cover Letter & 17 Consulting Agreement.................................................................. 128 18 Exhibit-5 19 Email Chain............................................................................................. 145 20 Exhibit-6 21 Battelle Correspondence......................................................... 158 22 Exhibit-7 23 Agreement................................................................................................... 162 24 Exhibit-8 25 Agreement................................................................................................... 176 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 EXHIBIT 2 HOLM PAGE 3 Exhibit-9 4 Invoices.......................................................................................................... 184 5 Exhibit-10 6 Collection ofDocuments............................................................. 225 7 Exhibit-11 8 Article............................................................................................................. 262 9 Exhibit-12 10 Article............................................................................................................. 264 11 Exhibit-13 12 Web Site Information...................................................................... 272 13 Exhibit-14 14 Article............................................................................................................. 278 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 4 Priority-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. 25B Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 Page 5 1 THE VIDEO OPERATOR: My name is 2 Safaa Sammander of Priority One 3 Reporting. Today's date is June 6, 4 2011. The time is approximately 9:33 5 a.m. This deposition is being held 6 in the office of King & Spalding, 7 1180 Peachtree Street, Atlanta, 8 Georgia. 9 The caption of the case is In Re: 10 New York City Asbestos Litigation 11 filed in the Supreme Court of the 12 State of New York, County of New 13 York. The name of the witness is 14 Stewart E. Holm. 15 At this time will the attorneys 16 identify themselves for the record 17 after which our court reporter, 18 Jennifer Ammerman of Priority One 19 Reporting, will swear in the witness 20 and then we can proceed. 21 MR. KRISTAL: Jerry Kristal from 22 Weitz & Luxenberg. 23 MR. EMERY: Scott Emery from 24 Lynch, Daskal & Emery. 25 MR. SCHNEIDER: Richard irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 Schneider, King & Spalding, for the 2 defendant Georgia-Pacific, LLC. 3 4 STEWART E. HOLM, 5 having been first duly sworn, 6 was examined and testified as follows: 7 8 EXAMINATION 9 BY MR. KRISTAL: 10 Q. Good morning, Mr. Holm. As you just 11 heard, my name is Jerry Kristal. How are you? 12 A. Doing quite well. Thank you. 13 Q. I represent a number of individuals who 14 have a variety of asbestos-related diseases 15 including mesothelioma who have brought lawsuits 16 and are alleging that their exposure to 17 Georgia-Pacific asbestos joint compound 18 contributed to the development of their asbestos 19 disease. 20 Do you generally have an understanding 21 of that? 22 A. Yes, I do. 23 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 24 form. 25 BY MR. KRISTAL: Page 6 )rity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 Q. Do you know what mesothelioma is? 2 A. I do, sir. 3 Q. What is mesothelioma? 4 A. It's cancer of pleural tissue in the 5 mesothelial cells 6 Q. And do you know that it's universally 7 fatal? 8 A. Yes, I do. 9 Q. And that its if not exclusive almost 10 exclusive cause is asbestos exposure? 11 A. I agree with that, yes. 12 Q. Have you ever been deposed before? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. How many times have you been deposed 15 before? 16 A. Three. 17 Q. When was the first and when was the 18 last? 19 A. The first one's easy. It was on 20 9/11/2001, and then I'm not sure of the other 21 two times I was deposed. Maybe eight years ago 22 and then six years ago. 23 Q. Do you understand you're being deposed 24 here today as speaking on behalf of the 25 Georgia-Pacific Company? Page 7 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 A. I understand that. 2 Q. Did you testify in theprior 3 depositions in the same capacity? 4 A. Yes, I did. 5 Q. Did those cases involve litigation 6 against Georgia-Pacific? 7 A. They did. 8 Q. What was the substances that were 9 involved or the product involved? 10 A. The first one was particle board. The 11 second one was CCA-treated lumber and the third 12 one was ACQ-treated lumber. 13 Q. Now, the CCA treated and the ACQ14 treated lumber, those are preservatives, so to 15 speak, in wood that there were allegations were 16 causing injuries? 17 A. That's correct. 18 Q. And were you specially employed as part 19 of some litigation work for those two products? 20 A. Could you define specially employed? 21 I'm not quite sure what you mean. 22 Q. Okay. We'll get there in a few 23 minutes. 24 A. Okay. 25 Q. You had published a few articles on CCA- Page 8 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 treated and ACQ-treated lumber, correct? 2 A. I have. 3 Q. And coauthors of yours for those 4 articles were with a consulting firm called 5 Exponent. You're familiar with them? 6 A. I am. 7 Q. Okay. Did you -- strike that. Did 8 Georgia-Pacific hire Exponent to do some 9 litigation projects on the CCA-treated and ACQ10 treated wood? 11 A. Those -- no, I wouldn't define it as 12 that. Those were product stewardship projects 13 for those two treated lumber types. 14 Q. What do you mean products - 15 stewardship projects? 16 A. We were looking at to see -- there is 17 data gaps in term of specifically with CCA that 18 we wanted to explore to see if the answers that 19 were incurred were beyond what the fault 20 parameters were being used by regulatory 21 authorities. 22 Q. Those two articles were used in support 23 of Georgia-Pacific's litigation position in 24 those litigations, right? 25 MR. SCHNEIDER: I'm going to Page 9 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 Page 10 1 object to the question and point out, 2 Jerry, that he is noticed here today, 3 as you mentioned, as a 30(b)(6) type 4 witness, person most knowledgeable 5 under a specific notice that relates 6 to specific articles. 7 These are background questions it 8 seems to me that you're asking. He's 9 not specifically designated to talk 10 on these topics on behalf of the 11 company. So I just wanted to put 12 that objection on the record. We'll 13 see where this goes and... But this 14 is supposed to be under the notice 15 that you've issued in the litigation 16 for his deposition so... 17 MR. KRISTAL: Well, you're not 18 taking the position that someone 19 who's designated as most 20 knowledgeable by a defendant in 21 litigation can't be asked questions 22 about background work. 23 MR. SCHNEIDER: I think that the 24 specific rules require that he gives 25 testimony on the topics listed in the irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 notice and not a bunch of background 2 stuff that's outside the topics of 3 the notice. 4 Having said that, if you're just 5 exploring his background in a limited 6 fashion, we'll see how it goes on a 7 question-by-question basis. 8 MR. KRISTAL: Can you read back 9 my last question. 10 (Record read.) 11 THE WITNESS: They were used in 12 support. They were conducted before 13 any litigation occurred. Like I 14 said, they were conducted as a 15 product stewardship perspective. 16 BY MR. KRISTAL: 17 Q. Well, CCA-treated lumber had been 18 banned at the time that the studies were 19 conducted, right? 20 A. It -- CCA-treated lumber has not been 21 banned. 22 Q. 23 about? What was the particle board litigation 24 A. It was a -- our particle board was in 25 a, quote/unquote, "dump" in Mississippi Page 11 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 and they thought it was somehow affecting the 2 environmental condition in that area. 3 Q. Did you hire any outside consultants to 4 do work on that litigation as you've done in 5 this litigation? 6 A. No. 7 Q. My primary suggestion to you is, and 8 I'd ask you to try to obey it, is if you don't 9 understand what I'm asking you, just don't 10 answer the question. Let me know you don't 11 understand and then it's up to me to reword the 12 question or withdraw it and ask another question 13 because it's not helpful to me if you're 14 answering questions that you're not 15 understanding. Is that okay? 16 A. Sure. 17 Q. Now, you have been at Georgia-Pacific 18 since 1992? 19 A. It'll be 19 years this 29th of June. 20 Q. So June 29, 1992, is when you started? 21 A. Sounds about right. 22 Q. And currently your regular employee 23 title at Georgia-Pacific is director of 24 toxicology and chemical management? 25 A. It is. Page 12 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 Q. How long have you been director? 2 A. About a year and a half. 3 Q. Now, in addition to your regular duties 4 at Georgia-Pacific, you've also had special 5 employment duties, have you not? 6 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 7 form. 8 A. I -- I guess I don't 9 understand special employment 10 duties. 11 BY MR. KRISTAL: 12 Q. Well, there are three lawyers here from 13 Georgia-Pacific, correct? 14 A. One from Georgia-Pacific. 15 Q. One in-house lawyer. That's 16 Mr. Childs - 17 A. That's correct. 18 Q. -- sitting at the end of the table? 19 A. That's correct. 20 Q. And the two other lawyers are outside 21 counsel, so to speak? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Mr. Emery and Mr. Schneider. 24 A. Um-hum. Yes. 25 Q. Are you saying that Mr. Childs did not Page 13 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 engage you as a special employee in addition to 2 your regular employee duties at Georgia-Pacific, 3 relating to asbestos litigation? 4 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 5 form. 6 A. I think I've never 7 been called a special whatever but I 8 think it could be described in that 9 way. 10 MR. KRISTAL: Well, let me mark 11 as Exhibit 1 -- can we go off the 12 video record for a second. 13 THE VIDEO OPERATOR: The time is 14 9:43 a.m. Going off the video 15 record. 16 (Discussion held off the record.) 17 (Exhibit 1 was marked for 18 identification.) 19 THE VIDEO OPERATOR: Back on the 20 record. The time is 9:44 a.m. 21 MR. KRISTAL: I'm handing first 22 to Mr. Schneider what I've marked as 23 Exhibit 1 which is an August 22, 2005 24 letter and the Bates Number is NYCAL8 25 and 9. I'm leaving out all the Page 14 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 prefix zeros. 2 BY MR. KRISTAL: 3 Q. Do you see that in front of you? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And that is a letter that was written 6 August 22, 2005, from Mr. Childs, who's here in 7 the room, to you, is it not? 8 A. Yes, it is. 9 Q. And Mr. Childs' name on the upper 10 right-hand corner lists him as the chief 11 litigation counsel for Georgia-Pacific, correct? 12 A. I see that, yes. 13 Q. And you were aware that Mr. Childs had 14 a few months prior to August of 2005 joined 15 Georgia-Pacific as its first chief litigation 16 counsel. Are you aware of that? 17 A. I didn't know that, no. 18 Q. Were you aware that Mr. Childs' role at 19 Georgia-Pacific as chief litigation counsel was 20 to develop and design an in-house defense to 21 asbestos litigation? 22 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 23 form. And also if that requires you 24 to disclose attorney/client 25 privileged communications, then I Page 15 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 will instruct you not to disclose any 2 such communications. 3 A. I didn't know that was the 4 purpose of his employment. 5 BY MR. KRISTAL: 6 Q. Okay. At some point we'll print this 7 out but I have something on my laptop I want to 8 show you and we'll mark it as Exhibit 2 in 9 hyper-space for now. I'll hand it to 10 Mr. Schneider first. 11 I'm going to scroll down. This is an 12 article entitled "Lawyer Plants New Roots at 13 Georgia-Pacific." It's an article about 14 Mr. Childs. 15 see that? If you would take a look. Do you 16 A. Okay. 17 Mr. SCHNEIDER: I'm going to 18 object to the question and object to 19 the exhibit. This is not a topic 20 listed in the deposition notice, to 21 talk about Mr. Childs' background and 22 what Mr. Holm knows about it. I note 23 that objection but you can answer. 24 BY MR. KRISTAL: 25 Q. This is an article about Mr. Holm. Do Page 16 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 you see that? I'm sorry. You're Mr. Holm. 2 A. Yeah. 3 Q. Mr. Childs. 4 A. I know it wasn't me. Okay. Yes. 5 Q. Okay. And you see in the big paragraph 6 down in the middle of the page there it says 7 that Mr. Childs' joined Georgia-Pacific in April 8 of '05. Do you see that? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Let me point it out to you. 11 A. Okay. It says it up here. 12 Q. Oh, okay. So it says up top he joined 13 in April '05. Now, if you look in the middle 14 paragraph Mr. Childs says... 15 A. Okay. 16 Q. Can you read what it says - 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. -- where it says my role? 19 A. Sure. "My role was to develop and 20 design an in-house defense to the asbestos 21 litigation." 22 MR. SCHNEIDER: Let me just note 23 this objection for the record. 24 You're showing him a page on the 25 computer which I guess is something Page 17 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 Page 18 1 you pulled up from a Web site. Can 2 you give us the - 3 MR. KRISTAL: Sure, yeah. 4 MR. SCHNEIDER: -- Web site 5 address on the - 6 MR. KRISTAL: Well, I was gonna 7 have this printed out at some break 8 and marked as an exhibit - 9 MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. 10 MR. KRISTAL: -- so you all can 11 have copies of it, but I'll be happy 12 to tell you where it's from now. 13 It's an article in something called 14 Corporate Counsel. 15 MR. SCHNEIDER: All right. 16 MR. KRISTAL: It's an ALM Web 17 site, law.com. The article is from 18 the Fulton County Daily Report, April 19 23, 2008. 20 MR. SCHNEIDER: All right. 21 You're gonna print out that page and 22 mark it at some appropriate point or 23 e-mail - 24 MR. KRISTAL: Someone will print 25 out the -- irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 MR. SCHNEIDER: If you just -- if 2 you read that browser address it 3 probably would be helpful to us and 4 we'll have that on the record. 5 MR. KRISTAL: Okay. Well, this 6 is on a thumb drive. 7 MR. SCHNEIDER: Oh, it is. Okay. 8 MR. KRISTAL: And I tried to get 9 it printed this morning but I was 10 unsuccessful so... 11 MR. SCHNEIDER: All right. 12 MR. KRISTAL: We'll -- we'll get 13 it printed. 14 MR. SCHNEIDER: All right. 15 Understood. 16 BY MR. KRISTAL: 17 Q. Are you telling us that today is the 18 first time that you've heard that Mr. Childs' 19 role was to develop and design an in-house 20 defense to asbestos litigation? 21 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 22 form of the question, and if the 23 question requires you to reveal 24 attorney/client communications, I 25 instruct you not to answer. But if Page 19 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 you have an understanding from some 2 other source, you can answer. 3 A. I didn't know that 4 was the sole reason he was joining 5 GP, no. 6 BY MR. KRISTAL: 7 Q. Well, nor does it say that was his sole 8 reason. But did you have an understanding 9 before reading this article that that was one of 10 his roles? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Okay. When did you first have that 13 understanding? 14 A. When he joined the company. 15 Q. Now, if you look at Exhibit 2, this is 16 a letter addressed to you at Georgia-Pacific 17 Corporation sent from the same location, right? 18 MR. SCHNEIDER: I think that's 19 Exhibit 1, is it not? 20 MR. KRISTAL: I'm sorry. Exhibit 21 1. Thank you very much. 22 BY MR. KRISTAL: 23 Q. Do you have Exhibit 1 in front of you? 24 A. I do. 25 Q. This says dear Mr. Holm. Quote, "This Page 20 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 letter confirms that you have been specially 2 employed by Georgia-Pacific Corporation, GP, to 3 perform expert consulting services in connection 4 with pending and anticipated litigation 5 concerning alleged exposure to asbestos, the 6 litigation," end quote. Do you see that opening 7 sentence? 8 A. I do. 9 Q. Okay. What did you understand 10 specially employed by Georgia-Pacific to mean 11 when you got this letter? 12 A. They have a specific function related 13 to asbestos research. 14 Q. Well, it doesn't say asbestos research. 15 It says asbestos litigation, right? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And the letter goes on and says, "As 18 GP's litigation consultant, you will continue to 19 be an agent of GP," end quote. So you were 20 acting in the capacity as a litigation 21 consultant for Georgia-Pacific with respect to 22 the research that was funded by Georgia-Pacific 23 and the articles that were published on which 24 you're going to be speaking today; is that 25 correct? Page 21 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 A. I'd agree with that. 2 Q. The letter continues, quote, "However, 3 your duties as litigation consultant are 4 separate and distinct from your duties as a 5 regular employee of Georgia-Pacific and your 6 work will be directed solely by GP's in-house 7 counsel," end quote. Do you see that sentence? 8 A. I do. 9 Q. Had you ever had any work at 10 Georgia-Pacific in the -- I guess at this point 11 it was about 15 years you were there -- where 12 you were being directed solely by 13 Georgia-Pacific's in-house counsel who you knew 14 had a role in the defense of asbestos 15 litigation? 16 A. Did I have a -- what was it -- the 17 question again? 18 MR. KRISTAL: Can you read back 19 the question, please. 20 (Record read.) 21 A. No. That was the first 22 time. 23 BY MR. KRISTAL: 24 Q. The letter continues, quote, "You will 25 report directly to GP's in-house counsel," end Page 22 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 quote. Had you ever reported directly on any 2 other assignment directly to GP's in-house 3 litigation counsel? 4 A. I'd probably say yes. 5 Q. Okay. When was that? 6 A. Well, that was with those three other 7 depositions. 8 Q. So the work that you were doing in 9 terms of any research on the CCA and ACQ-treated 10 lumber, you were reporting directly to GP's 11 counsel? 12 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 13 form. 14 A. Yes, I was. 15 BY MR. KRISTAL: 16 Q. And the same with the particle board 17 litigation? 18 A. Like I said, there wasn't any research 19 associated with the particle board. It was just 20 a deposition. 21 Q. Then the letter has a section entitled 22 purpose Do you see that? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And it says, quote, "You will assist 25 GP's in house counsel in advising GP in Page 23 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 connection with the litigation," end quote. Had 2 you ever been involved before with asbestos 3 litigation? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Fair to say that in your career up 6 until this point of time you had really had no 7 specialty in asbestos? Is that fair to say? 8 A. In asbestos specifically, that's fair 9 to say. 10 Q. You had done no research in asbestos at 11 this point in time, August of 2005, correct? 12 A. That's correct. 13 Q. You had had no publications relating to 14 asbestos at that point in time? 15 A. That's also correct. 16 Q. You gave no presentations at any 17 meetings about asbestos? 18 A. I'd agree with that. 19 Q. The purpose section of Exhibit 1, the 20 August 22, 2005 letter, continues, quote, "Your 21 work as litigation consultant will involve 22 performing workplace simulation tests and 23 analyzing data from prior tests performed by 24 third parties," end quote. Do you see that? 25 A. I do see that. Page 24 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 Q. Did you perform any workplace 2 simulation tests from the time you got this 3 letter to the present date? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. What workplace simulation tests did you 6 perform? 7 A. The -- we performed some workplace 8 simulation tests with asbestos-containing 9 material in chamber design and also in the 10 field. 11 Q. Well, what -- what is your 12 understanding of a workplace simulation test? 13 A. Well, we had -- we were in a warehouse 14 and we had expert people sanding joint compound 15 as well as non-expert people sanding joint 16 compound and we took industrial hygiene 17 measurements. 18 Q. And we'll talk about that in a little 19 while. Did that work result in any publication? 20 A. I don't -- yes, it has. 21 Q. What publication was that? 22 A. Can I -- this is -- 23 Q. Anything you need to refer to - 24 A. Okay. 25 Q. -- at any time, just let me know -- Page 25 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 A. All right. 2 Q. -- or just feel free to go ahead and 3 refer to it. 4 A. Okay. 5 Q. Just when you're referring to, if you 6 would identify what you're referring to. 7 A. All right. All right. The first one 8 is titled Factors Influencing Dust Exposure: 9 Finishing Activities in Drywall Construction. 10 Q. Can you tell me who the lead author is 11 and the year? 12 A. Yeah. It's Catherine Simmons and the 13 year is 2011. 14 Q. That's the Environ work? 15 A. That's correct. 16 Q. Okay. Any other publications from what 17 you just said in terms of workplace simulation 18 tests? 19 A. Oh... No. 20 Q. Now, Environ -- we're gonna get to 21 probably later today or some other day -- was a 22 consulting company that was hired by 23 Georgia-Pacific to be involved in this 24 litigation project, correct? 25 A. That's correct. Page 26 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 Q. And that study, if I'm recalling 2 correctly, didn't use asbestos-containing joint 3 compound, did it? 4 A. No, it did not. 5 Q. So the workplace simulation -- strike 6 that. Did any of the workplace simulation tests 7 as you have defined it in terms of your work on 8 this litigation project, did that involve 9 asbestos joint compound or joint compound 10 without asbestos? 11 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 12 form. You can answer. 13 A. This publication 14 was on non-asbestos-containing joint 15 compound. 16 BY MR. KRISTAL: 17 Q. Okay. And I'm asking you if there was 18 any work that falls in the category of what 19 we're discussing, workplace simulation tests, 20 involved asbestos joint compound. 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Did that result in a publication? 23 A. It resulted -- it's -- it's a 24 manuscript that's been accepted but it's not 25 been published at this point. Page 27 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 Q. And where has it been accepted? Let me 2 guess. Inhalation Toxicology? 3 A. No. 4 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 5 form. 6 A. I don't have the -- we publish 7 in a lot of different journals so I 8 don't recall the exact name of that 9 journal right now. 10 BY MR. KRISTAL: 11 Q. Who was the lead author? 12 A. Pat Sheehan. 13 Q. So that's an Exponent study -14 A. That's correct. 15 Q. -- is that fair to say? 16 A. Um-hum. He was the lead author. 17 Q. Just for Jennifer's purpose, if you 18 could just give us yeses and nos 19 A. Sure. 20 Q. We all understood what you meant -21 A. Yeah. 22 Q. -- but she has to actually -23 A. I understand. 24 Q. -- write it down. 25 A. Um-hum. Yes. Page 28 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 Q. Any other publication arising out of 2 any workplace simulation tests with asbestos 3 joint compound, other than the manuscript whose 4 lead author is Sheehan, that is not out yet? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Was the joint compound used that is 7 being reported on, on the yet-to-be-published 8 Sheehan article, old original asbestos joint 9 compound or recreated joint compound? 10 A. Recreated joint compound. 11 Q. Did you do any workplace simulation 12 tests for this litigation project that involved 13 original Georgia-Pacific asbestos joint 14 compound? 15 A. Not workplace simulation per se, no. 16 Q. What kind of tests did you do? 17 A. We did some sized distribution studies 18 comparing historic joint compound to recreated 19 joint compound. 20 Q. And when you say size and distribution 21 studies, were you looking at old Georgia-Pacific 22 asbestos joint compound that had been applied 23 and sanded and then looked at the sanded 24 material to look at the size and distribution? 25 A. Yes. Page 29 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 Q. When -- strike that. How many such 2 studies were there that involved old 3 Georgia-Pacific asbestos joint compound? 4 A. One. 5 Q. Has that resulted in a publication? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Why not? 8 A. It's -- it's been submitted and we have 9 comments back but it hasn't been accepted or 10 published at this point in time. 11 Q. So it's a manuscript that's been 12 prepared? 13 A. That's correct. 14 Q. Who was the lead author on that? 15 A. Wayne Berman. 16 Q. Wayne Berman? Is that the article that 17 you referenced in the 2008 recreation article as 18 having been in preparation as of 2008? 19 A. I believe so. 20 Q. So this article that you actually gave 21 a title to in the 2008 paper still has not been 22 published yet? 23 A. That's correct. 24 Q. Any other tests on Georgia-Pacific 25 asbestos joint compound? Page 30 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 2 form. 3 BY MR. KRISTAL: 4 Q. Let me rephrase it. 5 A. Yeah. 6 Q. Did you perform any other what you 7 would consider workplace simulation tests or 8 tests such as the one involving the size and 9 distribution study involving old Georgia-Pacific 10 asbestos joint compound? 11 A. That would be all. 12 Q. What workplace simulation tests in the 13 field did you do pursuant to this litigation 14 research? 15 A. Pursuant to what litigation research? 16 Q. The litigation research that is 17 referenced in the August 22, 2005 letter, 18 Exhibit 1. 19 A. I hadn't done any before that time. 20 Q. No, no. I'm talking about pursuant to 21 your assignment in August 22, 2005. 22 A. Can you reask the question? 23 Q. Okay. When I asked you what workplace 24 simulation tests, I believe you divided your 25 answer into two things, chamber design studies Page 31 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 and studies in the field. Did you say that? Page 32 2 A. Well, there is one other. 3 Q. First of all, did you say chamber 4 design studies and studies in the field? 5 A. Well, I inferred there was more than 6 that, but that could have been the only thing I 7 said. 8 Q. When you use the word field in response 9 to my question about workplace simulation tests, 10 what are you talking about? 11 A. The field tests were in the warehouse 12 and there was a polyethylene chamber, if you 13 will, and the studies were conducted in that 14 location. That's the field. 15 Q. Okay. So you weren't actually in the 16 field. You were in somebody's lab somewhere. 17 A. No. We were in a warehouse. 18 Q. You were in a warehouse somewhere and 19 you set up a test chamber - 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. -- and you did some studies. 22 A. We did some industrial hygiene 23 measurements -- some sanding and then industrial 24 hygiene measurements, yes. 25 Q. And that's what you were talking about irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 in terms of the Sheehan manuscript? 2 A. No. 3 Q. No. What is that? 4 A. What is what? 5 Q. I'm trying to find out what you're 6 talking about in terms of what the study in this 7 warehouse was. 8 A. The warehouse was The Factors 9 Influencing Dust Exposure: Finishing Activities 10 In Drywall Construction. 11 Q. That's the Simmons study. 12 A. That's correct. 13 Q. Okay. Were there ever any field 14 studies involving asbestos joint compound other 15 than the Sheehan manuscript that's been accepted 16 and hasn't been published? 17 A. The Sheehan manuscript wasn't in the 18 field. 19 Q. Okay. What was that? 20 A. That was data from the chamber. 21 Q. What's the difference between the 22 chamber and the field? 23 A. The field was a chamber that was in a 24 warehouse. 25 Q. Right. Page 33 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 Page 34 1 A. The Sheehan paper was a chamber that 2 was specifically designed to look at joint 3 compound and asbestos fibers. They're two 4 different chambers. 5 Q. Okay. And where was the chamber that 6 was especially designed to look at asbestos 7 fibers housed? 8 A. Outside of Oakland. I can't recall the 9 exact town. 10 Q. In a warehouse? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. So these are both chambers in 13 warehouses, is that fair to say? 14 A. That's fair to say. 15 Q. Okay. Who specially designed the 16 chamber that resulted in the Sheehan paper 17 that's been accepted but not published yet on 18 asbestos joint compound? 19 A. Oh, it was a combination of people but 20 mainly myself and Pat Sheehan, Greg Brorby and 21 Wayne Berman. 22 Q. Okay. Now, Pat Sheehan and Greg Brorby 23 are both with Exponent, right? 24 A. They are. 25 Q. And Wayne Berman has his own consulting irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 company, correct? 2 A. He does. 3 Q. He was subcontracted by Exponent 4 pursuant to Exponent's contract with 5 Georgia-Pacific for this litigation research, 6 right? 7 A. I'd agree with that. 8 Q. Is Berman a coauthor on the Exponent 9 manuscript that's been accepted but hasn't been 10 published yet, the one that Sheehan is the lead 11 author on? 12 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 13 form. 14 A. I'm pretty sure he is, 15 yes. 16 BY MR. KRISTAL: 17 Q. Are you? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And you were also a coauthor on the 20 study that has been in preparation where Berman 21 is the lead author, since 2008, right? 22 A. That's correct. 23 Q. Are there any other studies that were 24 performed that fall in the category of workplace 25 simulation tests that are mentioned in the Page 35 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 August 22, 2005 letter? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Did you analyze data from prior tests 4 performed by third parties as the letter 5 indicates you'd be involved in? It's the last 6 sentence of the purpose section. 7 A. In the re -8 Q. It was the last sentence - 9 A. -- that was written -10 Q. -- in the purpose section. Let me 11 re-read it. It says, "Your work as litigation 12 consultant will involve performing workplace 13 simulation tests and analyzing data from prior 14 tests performed by third parties." 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. So you were involved in that. 17 A. I was. 18 Q. Okay. Give me thelist of third-party 19 data that you were involved in analyzing 20 pursuant to this litigation research assignment. 21 MR. SCHNEIDER: That's referenced 22 in Exhibit 1. 23 MR. KRISTAL: Excuse me? 24 MR. SCHNEIDER: That's referenced 25 in Exhibit 1. Page 36 )rity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 MR. KRISTAL: Well -- or any 2 other one. 3 A. How I would define that is 4 that's data that's in the literature on 5 analyzing data in terms of industrial hygiene 6 information. 7 BY MR. KRISTAL: 8 Q. Right. So tell me which ones you 9 analyzed. 10 A. Verma, Middleton, Fishbein -11 Q. We have somebody who needs to write 12 down. Verma and Middleton. 13 A. Um-hum. 14 Q. Okay. Fishbein. 15 A. Yeah. 16 Q. Anybody else? 17 A. Yeah. There's a couple others. I 18 could probably refer to that if you don't -19 Q. Anything -- again, you don't have to 20 ask. 21 A. Okay. 22 Q. Just go to it and just tell us what 23 you're referring when you do it. Is that okay? 24 A. Sure. Rhodes and Engels and Rohl, et 25 al. Page 37 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 Q. R-o-h-l, Rohl? 2 A. That's correct. 3 Q. Are there any other third-party tests 4 that had been performed whose data you've 5 analyzed pursuant to this assignment? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Did anyone other than yourself assist 8 in the analysis of this third-party data? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Who was that? 11 A. Well, that would be the team that was 12 authors on the paper so that would include, you 13 know, Brorby, Sheehan, Berman, Jessica Greene 14 and myself. 15 Q. So this is an Exponent group and 16 yourself? 17 A. Other than Wayne Berman, right. 18 Q. Well, he was subcontracted - 19 A. Sure. 20 Q. -- by Exponent for this project, right? 21 A. That's correct. 22 Q. And what publication are you referring 23 to now? 24 A. This is -- the one I was looking at 25 here is the Recreation of Historical Page 38 Priority-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. 25B Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 Chrysotile-Containing Joint Compounds. 2 Q. So the 2008 article? 3 A. The 200 -- yeah, it's from 2008. 4 Q. Tell me exactly what you're looking at 5 in front of you there. 6 A. It's a 2008 article from Inhalation 7 Toxicology entitled Recreation of Historical 8 Chrysotile-Containing Joint Compounds. 9 Q. And that's the one where Brorby is the 10 lead author? 11 A. That's correct. 12 Q. And that's the one that references the 13 Berman paper that has not yet published as 14 having been in preparation at that point in 15 time? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Other than the analyses of the 18 third-party data that's contained in that 19 article, were you involved in analyzing any 20 other third-party data pursuant to this 21 litigation research assignment? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Did you -- well, strike that. We'll 24 come back to that. Referring again to Exhibit 25 1, there's a section called work product. Do Page 39 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 you see that? 2 A. I do. 3 Q. It says, "In connection with your work, 4 you may be asked to prepare a detailed written 5 report setting forth your findings as well as 6 the basis for any conclusions you have reached 7 in the course of your work on this matter," end 8 quote. Were you asked to do that? 9 A. I did [sic]. 10 Q. And how many detailed written reports 11 setting forth your findings have you prepared? 12 A. Two to four. I'm not sure of the exact 13 amount. 14 Q. Were there any other authors of these 15 reports other than yourself? 16 A. Well, there -- the ones I'm referring 17 to are internal reports. They would contain 18 information from - 19 MR. SCHNEIDER: Let me -- let me 20 stop you and instruct you that to the 21 extent you are discussing internal 22 reports that you submitted to counsel 23 or that related to your work with 24 counsel, I instruct you not to 25 describe the contents of the Page 40 )rity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 Page 41 1 document. You can note that you had 2 them, when you created them but don't 3 describe the contents of them as we 4 claim privilege or work product with 5 respect to the content of any such 6 materials. 7 THE WITNESS: Okay. 8 BY MR. KRISTAL: 9 Q. My question was were there any other 10 authors -- strike that. Let's move back. I 11 appreciate the reports we're talking about now 12 were internal Georgia-Pacific reports. Is that 13 correct? 14 A. That's correct. 15 Q. They were not submitted or prepared for 16 publication purposes, correct? 17 A. Not with what I'm referring to, no. 18 Q. Okay. And what I'm asking you now is 19 were there any other authors of these internal 20 reports other than yourself? 21 A. No, there were not. 22 Q. Did you share any drafts of the 23 internal reports with any of the consultants 24 that had been hired for this litigation research 25 project? irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 A. No. 2 Q. Did you share them with anyone else - 3 strike that. I'm assuming these reports went to 4 Mr. Childs? 5 A. Yes, they did. 6 Q. Did you share any drafts of the reports 7 before you submitted them to Mr. Childs to - 8 with anyone? 9 A. No. 10 MR. KRISTAL: I'd request all 11 these reports. I understand your 12 position. 13 MR. SCHNEIDER: And -- but 14 anything that we've located in our 15 files that, you know, we collected 16 before April 2011 should be on the 17 log so... 18 MR. KRISTAL: Okay. I'm just - 19 as we go along, I'm going to be 20 making requests and you can state 21 whatever your position is and we move 22 on to the next question. 23 BY MR. KRISTAL: 24 Q. The work product section of the August 25 22, 2005 letter continues, quote, "All notes, Page 42 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 memoranda, reports and other documents generated 2 by you should be clearly marked as follows:" In 3 all capital letters "privileged and 4 confidential. Prepared at direction of counsel 5 in anticipation of litigation. You agree not to 6 prepare any written report unless you are 7 specifically requested to do so by GP's in-house 8 counsel," end quote. Did you follow the first 9 direction there in terms of marking all notes, 10 memorandum, that you had with those markings? 11 A. Yes, I did. 12 Q. And did you follow the second 13 direction, not to prepare any written reports 14 unless specifically requested to do so by GP's 15 in-house counsel? 16 A. That is correct. 17 Q. Was it your understanding that reports 18 were to be generated at certain time frames or 19 did you literally specifically wait for a 20 request to write a report? 21 A. It was basically a request for a 22 report. 23 Q. And the two to four reports that you 24 referenced earlier were ones that you prepared 25 in response to that specific request by counsel? Page 43 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 A. That's correct. 2 Q. Under the section of the August 22, 3 2005 letter that says documents, it says, quote, 4 "All documents including work papers produced or 5 obtained by you during this engagement shall be 6 the sole property of GP and upon its request 7 shall be turned over to GP who shall be entitled 8 to deal with such documents as it deems 9 appropriate. You agree not to photocopy, 10 reproduce or create digital images of any such 11 documents without the expressed permission of 12 GP." Did you follow those instructions? 13 A. I did. 14 Q. Would you agree this was a top secret 15 project? 16 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 17 form. 18 A. No, I wouldn't agree with 19 that. 20 BY MR. KRISTAL: 21 Q. Okay. Let's look at the next page. 22 Under confidentiality the letter says, quote, 23 "You agree to maintain the confidentiality of 24 all notes, memoranda, reports, results, 25 opinions, theories, conclusions, statements, Page 44 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 documents and other information generated by you 2 in connection with your work; collectively, the 3 confidential information," end quote. So 4 anything and everything that you did on this 5 project you had to keep confidential, correct? 6 A. That's correct. 7 Q. And is confidential different in your 8 mind than secret? 9 A. No. 10 Q. It says, quote, "The confidential 11 information shall be held in the strictest 12 confidence and shall not be reproduced, 13 disclosed or divulged directly or indirectly to 14 any third party or otherwise used in any manner 15 not within the contemplation of this engagement 16 without the expressed permission of GP," end 17 quote. So the -- do you see that? 18 A. Yes, I do. 19 Q. And did you do that? 20 A. Yes, I did. 21 Q. So isn't this a secret project? 22 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 23 form. 24 A. The information 25 derived from the project was secret Page 45 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 but people certainly knew that I was 2 doing it. 3 BY MR. KRISTAL: 4 Q. Oh, okay. So the fact of the project 5 was known but the information generated from the 6 project was secret. 7 A. That is correct. 8 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 9 form. 10 BY MR. KRISTAL: 11 Q. It goes on, quote, "Further" -- well, 12 strike that. When it says here that you are not 13 to reproduce, disclose, et cetera, in any manner 14 not within the contemplation of this 15 agreement -- do you see that? 16 A. Um-hum. 17 Q. Is that a yes? 18 A. Yes. Sorry. 19 Q. -- what did you understand the within 20 the contemplation of this engagement to mean? 21 A. As part of the litigation within the 22 context of this letter. 23 Q. The letter continues, quote, "Further 24 you may not disclose the confidential 25 information to any GP employee except GP's Page 46 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 in-house counsel without the expressed 2 permission of GP." Do you see that? 3 A. I do. 4 Q. So other than Georgia-Pacific's chief 5 litigation counsel, you were prohibited from 6 sharing any of the information from this project 7 with any other Georgia-Pacific employee as well, 8 right? 9 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 10 form. 11 A. I'd agree with that 12 statement. 13 BY MR. KRISTAL: 14 Q. Did you maintain that confidence? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. The letter continues, quote, "You agree 17 to store all confidential information in a 18 separate file away from other documents and 19 records you keep in connection with your regular 20 duties as a GP employee," end quote. Do you see 21 that? 22 A. I do. 23 Q. Did you do that? 24 A. I did. 25 Q. Can you tell me the volume of the Page 47 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 information that you maintained in separate 2 files from other documents that you maintain in 3 your regular duties as a GP employee? 4 A. It's difficult to tell since most of 5 it's electronic. So paper copies, there's 6 probably four to eight file cabinet -- cabinets 7 and as part of electronic files, it's -- there's 8 a lot of information there. 9 Q. Do you -- in terms of the electronic 10 information that you're talking about, is that 11 maintained on a separate computer or a separate 12 hard drive segregated from your information on 13 computer pursuant to your regular duties at 14 Georgia-Pacific? 15 A. No. 16 Q. So whatever computer you have, the 17 information for this particular project is 18 stored on that computer? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. The file cabinets that you're talking 21 about with hard copies, are these four-drawer 22 file cabinets, six drawer? How tall are they? 23 A. Well, they're -- there's boxes around 24 my office and there's file cabinets so they're 25 in -- they're in a separate office from my Page 48 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 regular office so there are different shapes and Page 49 2 forms. Like I said, I -- there'd probably be 3 about six file cabinets full. 4 Q. Who has access to that separate office 5 other than yourself? 6 A. No one. 7 Q. The next section of the letter is 8 entitled conflicts of interest; no prior 9 knowledge. Do you see that section? 10 A. I do. 11 Q. Now, conflicts of interest are 12 important to disclose, are they not? 13 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 14 form. 15 A. Yes. 16 BY MR. KRISTAL: 17 Q. And you're required under the terms of 18 this letter to actually confirm with your own 19 employee -- your own employer who you have been 20 employed with for 15 years that you didn't have 21 any conflict of interest with this litigation 22 research project, right? 23 A. That's correct. 24 Q. And it says here, quote, "By signing 25 this letter, you confirm the following: One, you irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 are not aware of any actual or potential Page 50 2 conflicts of interest which may compromise your 3 work on this matter. Two, you have had no prior 4 involvement in any asbestos related matter 5 during your employment at GP; and, three, you have 6 no knowledge of any work performed by any other 7 GP employee in connection with any asbestos- 8 related matter," end quote. Do you see that? 9 A. I do. 10 Q. Did you think that was odd? 11 A. No. 12 Q. You didn't think it was odd that you 13 were getting a letter that you had to confirm 14 that you had no conflicts of interest with an 15 assignment you were being given? 16 A. I hadn't thought about it at that point 17 as being odd, no. 18 Q. Did you ask anybody why it was you had 19 to confirm that you had no prior involvement in 20 any asbestos-related matter during your 21 employment at GP? 22 A. I didn't. 23 Q. Did you ask anyone why you had to 24 confirm that you had no knowledge of any work 25 performed by any other GP employee in connection irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 with any asbestos-related matter? 2 A. I didn't ask that question either, no. 3 Q. In your employment at GP with respect 4 to your regular duties up through the time you 5 received this letter, did you have any work at 6 all related to asbestos litigation? 7 A. No. 8 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 9 form. 10 A. No, I didn't. 11 BY MR. KRISTAL: 12 Q. You had no prior involvement in 13 asbestos litigation before you got this letter? 14 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 15 form. 16 A. No. 17 BY MR. KRISTAL: 18 Q. And did you have any knowledge of any 19 work performed by any other Georgia-Pacific 20 employee in connection with any asbestos related 21 matter before you got this letter? 22 A. Any work or... I -23 Q. The letter says you had to confirm 24 that, quote, "You had no knowledge of any work 25 performed by any other GP employee in connection Page 51 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 with any asbestos-related matter," end quote. 2 And I'm asking you if you had any knowledge of 3 any work performed by any other GP employee in 4 connection with any asbestos-related matter 5 before you got this letter. 6 A. I knew the lawyers were engaged in 7 litigation. That's -- I did know that, yes. 8 Q. Had you ever spoken to the lawyers 9 about the litigation -- about asbestos 10 litigation before this letter? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Is it fair to say that this letter did 13 not arrive on your desk out of the blue? 14 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 15 form. 16 A. Well, the letter actually did, 17 yes. 18 BY MR. KRISTAL: 19 Q. Well, were you aware prior to opening 20 the envelope and laying your eyes on the letter 21 that you were being considered for this 22 litigation research project? 23 A. I did know that. 24 Q. Okay. And how did you know that? 25 A. I had spoken with John Childs. Page 52 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 Q. When prior to receiving the August 2005 2 letter had you first spoken to Mr. Childs about 3 this assignment? 4 A. I don't recall at this date. 5 Q. I mean the day before, a couple of 6 months before? 7 A. I really don't remember. 8 Q. Do you have any notes that would 9 reflect that? 10 A. Probably not. 11 Q. Well, are you saying you had a - 12 strike that. 13 How many meetings did you have with 14 Mr. Childs before you received this letter in 15 August of 2005? 16 A. I don't recall at this point. 17 Q. When you had your meetings with 18 Mr. Childs, was it in person? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Were there ever any meetings you had 21 with him before August 2005 that were not in 22 person? 23 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 24 form. 25 BY MR. KRISTAL: Page 53 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 Q. About this project. 2 A. There could have been. On the phone 3 you mean or... 4 Q. Yeah. Teleconference, phone 5 conference. 6 A. I just don't remember what form the 7 meetings were or how many there were. 8 Q. Who other than you and Mr. Childs were 9 at any of these meetings before you got the 10 August 2005 letter? 11 A. There was -- probably Mary McLemore was 12 probably there, a possibility that Joel Mercer 13 was there. 14 Q. Anyone else? 15 A. Ken Khoury. 16 Q. Ken Khoury? 17 A. Um-hum. 18 Q. Can you spell that? 19 A. K-h-o-u-r-y. And then there was I 20 think one meeting with some senior people, my 21 CEO and COO, CFO. 22 Q. And who were they at the time? Who was 23 the CEO? 24 A. Now I'm going to forget his name. 25 Q. You're fired. Page 54 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 A. He was my CEO. Well, my COO was Lee 2 Thomas. CFO, I can't remember his name either. 3 Pete Correll was my CEO at the time. 4 Q. Pete Correll? 5 A. Yeah. 6 Q. Were all of the people you mentioned, 7 Ms. McLemore, Mr. Mercer, Mr. Khoury, the CEO, 8 the COO and the CFO all present at at least one 9 meeting prior to August 25, 2005, with you and 10 Mr. Childs? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Now, Ms. McLemore, Mr. Mercer and Mr. 13 Khoury, are they in the Georgia-Pacific 14 litigation department? 15 A. Well, they either are or were. 16 Q. Right. I'm talking about at the 17 time -18 A. Yes. 19 Q. -- before you received this letter. 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Are they all lawyers? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Were they all working on asbestos 24 litigation defense at that time? 25 A. Yes. Page 55 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 Page 56 1 Q. Were there any lawyers present at any 2 of the meetings you had before you got the 3 August 2005 letter that were -- such as Mr. 4 Schneider or Mr. Emery here who were outside 5 lawyers retained by Georgia-Pacific to work on 6 asbestos litigation? 7 A. I don't recall ever having there be 8 outside counsel before that point in time. 9 Q. Now, did you -- well, strike that. Are 10 you saying at these meetings before August 2005 11 you took no notes? 12 A. I -- I had a couple of presentations. 13 Q. When you say you had, did you mean you 14 presented or somebody else presented and you had 15 a copy of their presentation or perhaps both? 16 A. I assembled my own presentation and 17 presented it. 18 Q. Like a PowerPoint or a PowerPoint. Not 19 like a PowerPoint. 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. How many PowerPoint presentations in 22 terms of different PowerPoint presentations did 23 you assemble to present to this group? 24 A. Well, it was, you know, different 25 groups at different times but they all included irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 those people. Three, I suppose. 2 Q. Can you describe the three different 3 presentations in terms of subject matter? 4 MR. SCHNEIDER: I'm going to 5 instruct you, Mr. Holm, not to reveal 6 the content of any such presentation 7 because we have made claims of 8 attorney/client privilege and work 9 product that the company has so you 10 are not to reveal the content. If 11 are able to describe the general 12 subject matter without revealing the 13 content of the presentation, you can 14 do that. 15 A. Okay. They were on asbestos 16 toxicology and industrial hygiene 17 measurements. 18 BY MR. KRISTAL: 19 Q. Are you saying that all three 20 presentations were on asbestos toxicology and 21 industrial hygiene measurements or there was one 22 presentation on asbestos toxicology and a 23 separate presentation on industrial hygiene 24 measurements? 25 A. They were combined. Page 57 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 Q. So all three presentations combined 2 both asbestos toxicology and industrial hygiene 3 measurements? 4 A. In some form or other, right. 5 Q. Okay. 6 A. Right. 7 Q. Okay. Who did you consult with to 8 generate these PowerPoint presentations? 9 A. At that point in time, no one. 10 Q. How long had you taken to do research 11 on these subjects in order to develop your 12 PowerPoint presentation? 13 A. Probably looked into it from six months 14 to a year. 15 Q. What led you six months to a year 16 prior to receiving this August 2005 letter to 17 start preparing these asbestos toxicology and 18 industrial hygiene measurement PowerPoints? 19 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 20 form. 21 A. I was asked if there was a 22 way I could examine if our product was 23 causing disease. 24 BY MR. KRISTAL: 25 Q. When you say our product, you're Page 58 )rity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 talking about asbestos joint compound that had Page 59 2 previously been manufactured and sold by 3 Georgia-Pacific? 4 A. That's what I'm talking about, yes. 5 Q. And you know that had been banned as of 6 January 1978 by the Consumer Product Safety 7 Commission, correct? 8 A. I do understand that. 9 Q. So your assignment six months to a year 10 before you got the August 2005 letter was to try 11 to look at ways to look at the health and safety 12 implications of exposure to the asbestos joint 13 compound that hadn't been around for 30 years or 14 so, right? 15 MR. SCHNEIDER: I'm going to 16 object to the question and instruct, 17 Mr. Holm, that you should not reveal 18 the content of any attorney/client 19 communication or request by counsel 20 directed to you related to the 21 litigation. And if you can describe 22 your activity without doing so then 23 let us know, but if you can't, also 24 let us know that. 25 THE WITNESS: It was all )rity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 attorney/client privileged. 2 MR. SCHNEIDER: Then I would 3 instruct you not to answer that 4 question. 5 THE WITNESS: Okay. 6 BY MR. KRISTAL: 7 Q. Tell me the process where you by - 8 whereby you learned information as to whether or 9 not the Georgia-Pacific asbestos joint compound 10 was causing disease. 11 MR. SCHNEIDER: I'm going to 12 instruct Mr. Holm not to answer that 13 question which inquires into what 14 activities he pursued in order to 15 explore litigation defense matters. 16 BY MR. KRISTAL: 17 Q. Just so you understand -- I imagine 18 you've been told this but again that I guess 19 would be privileged as well or there would be a 20 claim of privilege, let's put it that way. If 21 Mr. Schneider makes the kind of objection he 22 just made, I'm going to go on to another 23 question - 24 A. Okay. 25 Q. -- because I assume when he instructs Page 60 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 you not to answer you're going to follow his 2 instruction. Is that fair to say? So I don't 3 have to keep asking you are you going to follow 4 his instruction. 5 A. That's fair to say. 6 Q. Okay. 7 MR. SCHNEIDER: As a - 8 MR. KRISTAL: Is that okay in 9 terms of preserving - 10 MR. SCHNEIDER: That's -- yes - 11 MR. KRISTAL: -- privilege and 12 teeing up the issue because otherwise 13 we have to ask these kind of silly 14 questions. 15 MR. SCHNEIDER: I totally agree. 16 Whenever I give the instruction, he 17 is going to follow it. We don't have 18 to go through that, No. 1. 19 MR. KRISTAL: Fair enough. 20 MR. SCHNEIDER: No. 2, to 21 facilitate this I'm not 22 instructing -- I'm not instructing 23 him to give absolutely no details 24 about the work that he did. If he 25 looked at -- if he went -- he can Page 61 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 describe very generally - 2 MR. KRISTAL: That's fine. 3 MR. SCHNEIDER: -- without the 4 specifics - 5 MR. KRISTAL: Right. Okay. 6 MR. SCHNEIDER: -- then let's see 7 if we can do that. 8 MR. KRISTAL: Then let's back up. 9 BY MR. KRISTAL: 10 Q. Could you tell us very generally what 11 you actually did in order to familiarize 12 yourself with asbestos toxicology to prepare the 13 PowerPoints that you did prior to the August 14 2005 letter? 15 A. I reviewed scientific literature that's 16 available in journals. 17 Q. Anything else? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Were any -- strike that. Was any 20 scientific literature provided to you by 21 anybody? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Could you tell me a list of people or 24 entities that provided you with scientific 25 literature pursuant to this PowerPoint Page 62 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 development? 2 A. Yeah. I can tell you the group. 3 Q. Okay. 4 A. It was Spriggs & Hollingsworth. 5 Q. Anybody else? 6 A. Not at that time, no. 7 Q. Okay. So when you say not at that 8 time, what I'm referencing now, the time frame 9 is the six months to a year prior to August 2005 10 where you were working on the development of 11 these PowerPoints. That's what I'm talking 12 about. 13 A. Okay. Then no. 14 Q. Okay. So other than Spriggs & 15 Hollingsworth, during that period of time nobody 16 else provided you with any literature. 17 A. Right. 18 Q. Did you go down to Spriggs & 19 Hollingsworth in DC? 20 A. No. They -- I did at one point but it 21 was after 2005 -22 Q. Okay. 23 A. -- around that time -24 Q. We may talk about that later. 25 A. It might have been around that time Page 63 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 frame. 2 Q. Tell me what you physically did at 3 Spriggs & Hollingsworth when you went there to 4 DC. 5 A. I talked to them about the pros and 6 cons - 7 MR. SCHNEIDER: Mr. Holm, I'd 8 instruct you that discussions that 9 you had with counsel and the content 10 of those discussions are protected by 11 the attorney/client privilege. You 12 can describe your activities very 13 generally. As you have said, you've 14 looked at literature. But in terms 15 of what your discussions were - 16 THE WITNESS: Right. 17 MR. SCHNEIDER: -- with the 18 company then I instruct you not to 19 provide those details. We've claimed 20 a privilege, work product with 21 respect to that. 22 THE WITNESS: Sure. Sure. I had 23 a discussion with them about the 24 literature I had reviewed. 25 BY MR. KRISTAL: Page 64 )rity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 Page 65 1 Q. So if I'm understanding the process, 2 you did some research on your own, looked at 3 some literature and then arranged to meet with 4 them to discuss the literature you had obtained 5 yourself? 6 A. Well, it was a combination. It was 7 literature that I obtained myself and literature 8 that was in specific binders that was supplied 9 by Spriggs & Hollingsworth. 10 Q. And I assume the materials that you 11 found yourself as well as the Spriggs & 12 Hollingsworth binders that were provided to you 13 are somewhere in those file cabinets? 14 A. Yes. Either in the file cabinets or on 15 my computer. 16 MR. KRISTAL: We'd request that 17 information as well. 18 BY MR. KRISTAL: 19 Q. Were the binders broken down by 20 categories of articles? 21 A. Yes, they were. 22 Q. How many binders were there? 23 A. Seven or eight. 24 Q. What were the categories? 25 A. I don't recall the names of all the irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 categories at this point. Page 66 2 Q. I'm assuming the binders have on them a 3 title with the categories that would be in 4 there? 5 A. Yes, they do. 6 MR. SCHNEIDER: And I would note, 7 Jerry, that you just said you 8 requested the binders of articles 9 shared between counsel and Mr. Holm, 10 and just for the record, that would be 11 classic work product information and 12 we would object to that request but 13 just for -- to note on the record. 14 MR. KRISTAL: And just so the 15 record's clear, this at least in my 16 mind is not the form for us to be 17 debating the privilege issue. 18 Obviously it's going to be briefed 19 and is being briefed and is going to 20 be decided so my lack of response to 21 your classic attorney/client 22 privilege statement is certainly not 23 to be viewed by anyone as any sort of 24 agreement. 25 MR. SCHNEIDER: Understood. irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 BY MR. KRISTAL: 2 Q. Prior to your reading the asbestos 3 toxicology articles that you've read involved in 4 this PowerPoint presentation development 5 project, had you read asbestos literature 6 before? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. When and what was the circumstance that 9 led you to read to asbestos literature prior to 10 that? 11 A. It was a minor amount and just 12 interest. 13 Q. So on occasion if you happened to look 14 at an article, you would take a look at it but 15 it was not with any sort of project in mind? 16 A. That's correct. 17 Q. Now, how long ago were you talking 18 about in terms of reading whatever asbestos 19 literature you read prior to this project? 20 A. Oh, there might be an article or two 21 once every other year. 22 Q. How did you physically go about looking 23 for articles? Where did you start? 24 A. Augmed and just general searches, 25 Google, et cetera. Page 67 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 Q. Did you have anyone assisting you? 2 A. No. 3 Q. What percent of your time prior to 4 receiving the August 2005 letter was devoted to 5 the project we're talking about? 6 A. Oh, maybe 10, 15 percent. 7 Q. When you visited Spriggs & 8 Hollingsworth did you have any understanding as 9 to whether they played any role in terms of 10 Georgia-Pacific asbestos litigation defense? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. What was your understanding? 13 A. They were serving as outside counsel on 14 asbestos litigation. 15 Q. What lawyers from Spriggs & 16 Hollingsworth -- well, strike that. I'm 17 assuming there were lawyers at this meeting? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Which lawyers were there? 20 A. I don't recall. There was two lawyers 21 there and I don't remember their names. 22 Q. Bruce Berger? 23 A. Bruce was one. 24 Q. Kate Latimer? 25 A. No. Page 68 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 Q. Was Joe Hollingsworth there? 2 A. Not at that meeting. 3 Q. You had been at other meetings at 4 Spriggs & Hollingsworth where he was there? 5 A. I've met Joe. Not specifically in a 6 meeting. 7 Q. Did you share the PowerPoint 8 presentations with anyone before you presented 9 at these meetings that were attended by the 10 in-house counsel and the CEO, the COO and the 11 CFO? 12 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 13 form. 14 A. No. 15 BY MR. KRISTAL: 16 Q. What was your understanding as to why 17 you were preparing these PowerPoints? 18 MR. SCHNEIDER: Mr. Holm, to the 19 extent that you received that 20 understanding through communications 21 with counsel, I instruct you not to 22 reveal those communications. To the 23 extent that you can describe your 24 understanding separate and apart from 25 your communications with counsel, you Page 69 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 can answer the question. 2 THE WITNESS: It was directly 3 related to counsel's request. 4 MR. SCHNEIDER: Then I instruct 5 you not to answer. 6 BY MR. KRISTAL: 7 Q. Exhibit 1, the letter ends by saying in 8 the conflict of interest section, quote, "In 9 addition, you agree that you will not consult 10 with or testify for any opposing party on this 11 or any other matter during the course of the 12 litigation unless required to do so by subpoena 13 and/or valid and enforceable court order," end 14 quote. And you agreed to do that, did you not? 15 A. I did agree. 16 Q. And you signed down at the bottom. 17 That's your signature there agreeing that you 18 were going to abide by the terms of the letter? 19 A. That's my signature, yes. 20 Q. Now, you would agree that this whole 21 project that you had now been specially employed 22 by Georgia-Pacific to undertake was for 23 litigation-driven research, correct? 24 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 25 form. Page 70 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 A. Yes. Page 71 2 BY MR. KRISTAL: 3 Q. Did you assemble an in-house team of 4 any sort to assist you in this project? 5 A. No. I was the only in-house scientist 6 that was involved. 7 Q. Did the project have any sort of 8 mission statement? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Was your first assignment to assemble a 11 team of outside consultants? 12 A. No, it wasn't. 13 Q. What was your first assignment? 14 A. It was basically to continue to look at 15 the scientific literature in a more rigorous 16 fashion and make some conclusions on the 17 activities that would be proposed going forward. 18 Q. Did you prepare a proposal as to what 19 activities you thought should be undertaken 20 pursuant to this litigation-driven research? 21 A. I did. 22 Q. Did anyone assist you in that proposal? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Was there any part of the proposal that 25 discussed public disclosure of the results of irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 the studies that you were proposing? 2 A. Can you ask that one more time? 3 Q. Sure. I'm understanding you -- strike 4 that. Did you prepare a written proposal in 5 terms of outlining what you thought the 6 litigation-driven research projects moving 7 forward should be? 8 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 9 form. 10 A. Yes, I did. 11 BY MR. KRISTAL: 12 Q. Did that include any sort of proposal 13 with respect to publication of the results of 14 any of the studies? 15 MR. SCHNEIDER: Mr. Holm, I would 16 instruct you that communications 17 between you and counsel concerning 18 work to be done in connection with 19 litigation is protected by the 20 attorney/client privilege and the 21 work product privilege that the 22 company has so claimed. I instruct 23 you not to reveal the details of that 24 activity; however, you can answer the 25 question of whether any of the work Page 72 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 that you did, it was contemplated 2 that it would be published. 3 MR. KRISTAL: Well, that's not 4 quite what I was asking so let me 5 make sure... 6 THE WITNESS: Okay. 7 BY MR. KRISTAL: 8 Q. In your proposal were you suggesting 9 that Georgia-Pacific commit to the publication 10 of the results of this litigation research 11 regardless of what the results were? 12 MR. SCHNEIDER: Since the 13 communication you're being inquired 14 about is a communication that took 15 place with respect to your work 16 product activities and 17 attorney/client privileged 18 activities, I instruct you not to 19 answer. 20 THE WITNESS: Okay. 21 BY MR. KRISTAL: 22 Q. How lengthy was this litigation-driven 23 research proposal? 24 A. About -- well, it was in two forms, a 25 written form, six to seven pages and then there Page 73 )rity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 was a PowerPoint that was probably that length 2 also. 3 Q. The PowerPoint with the proposal for 4 the litigation-driven research is independent of 5 the PowerPoints we were talking about 6 earlier? 7 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 8 form. 9 A. No. I mean one of the PowerPoints 10 was consistent with what I was talking 11 about earlier. 12 BY MR. KRISTAL: 13 Q. Okay. Now, I'm trying to figure this 14 out. The proposal PowerPoint which was around 15 six or seven pages, was that developed by you 16 before or after you received your special 17 employment litigation consultant assignment in 18 August of 2005? 19 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 20 form. 21 A. That was afterwards. 22 BY MR. KRISTAL: 23 Q. Okay. Did that PowerPoint include the 24 asbestos toxicology and industrial hygiene 25 measurement slides from the previous PowerPoint Page 74 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 or was it a new independent PowerPoint? 2 A. There was -- I don't recall. There 3 might have been a few that were consistent but 4 the majority of them were based on more firm 5 review of the literature and more firm 6 understanding. 7 Q. To whom -- strike that. On how many 8 occasions did you present this litigation-driven 9 research proposal PowerPoint? 10 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 11 form. 12 A. Probably twice. 13 BY MR. KRISTAL: 14 Q. And who was in attendance during these 15 meetings? 16 A. The first time it was just attorneys 17 and the second time it was attorneys plus some 18 of the senior management. 19 Q. The CEO was there? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. The COO was there? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And the CFO was there? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Any other senior management? Page 75 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 A. General counsel. 2 Approximately how long after you Q. 3 received the August 2005 assignment letter did 4 you present this proposal PowerPoint? 5 A. I don't recall at this point in time. 6 Q. Had you at that point in time spoken 7 with any of the outside consultants who 8 eventually got hired for this litigation-driven 9 research project? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Who had you spoken with prior to your 12 PowerPoint presentation with your proposal? 13 David Bernstein? 14 A. Bernstein, yes, I had. 15 Q. Did you speak with anyone who was 16 employed by Exponent? 17 A. I imagine so. I was working with 18 Exponent on other projects as well so I'm not 19 quite sure of when I started talking to him 20 about asbestos litigation as opposed to other 21 activities. 22 Q. Did you speak with Fred Boelter? 23 A. Before -- 24 Q. Yes. 25 A. -- this? No. Page 76 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 Q. Did you speak with Wayne Berman before 2 this? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Did you speak with Ken Donaldson before 5 this proposal PowerPoint? 6 A. Maybe. I'm not quite sure when I 7 talked to Ken the first time. 8 Q. Ken Donaldson's over in Scotland, 9 right? 10 A. He's at the University of Edinburgh. 11 Q. And he's a coauthor on some of the 12 studies that got published out of this 13 litigation-driven research, right? 14 A. That's correct. 15 Q. And he was also consulting with 16 Georgia-Pacific on this project, correct? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Did you consult with anybody else that 19 you can recall other than who you've already 20 mentioned? 21 MR. SCHNEIDER: You mean at the 22 time. 23 MR. KRISTAL: Okay. Let me focus 24 it then. 25 BY MR. KRISTAL: Page 77 )rity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 Q. I'm only talking now about who you 2 consulted with in order to develop the 3 PowerPoint which was the proposal that you 4 presented to the two different groups, as you've 5 mentioned. 6 A. Um-hum. Um-hum. 7 Q. And I'm asking you - 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. -- who else did you consult with other 10 than Bernstein and Donaldson. Did you consult, 11 for example, with Deardorff? 12 A. I wouldn't think so. 13 Q. Why not? 14 A. He doesn't know anything about asbestos 15 cology. 16 Q. How about Festa, F-e-s-t-a? 17 A. No. He -- not on asbestos. 18 Q. As you sit here can you recall anybody 19 else you consulted? 20 A. I don't think I consulted with anybody 21 else. No. 22 Q. At the point in time when you presented 23 these proposals in the PowerPoint had 24 Georgia-Pacific retained any outside consultants 25 for this litigation-driven research project? Page 78 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 2 form. 3 A. I don't believe so. I didn't know 4 of any. 5 BY MR. KRISTAL: 6 Q. Okay. When in time was it that you 7 first spoke to -- strike that. Let me back up. 8 When you spoke to Bernstein while you 9 were developing the proposal PowerPoint, did you 10 discuss with him hiring him to work on this 11 litigation-driven research? 12 A. Not at that point. It was an 13 information discussion. 14 Q. Did you fly over to Europe to speak 15 with him? 16 A. Not related specifically to asbestos. 17 Q. What did it relate to? 18 MR. SCHNEIDER: I would instruct 19 you that if your meeting with 20 Mr. Bernstein related to some 21 litigation-related activity or 22 litigation defense, the fact of those 23 consultations would be protected by a 24 work product privilege and a 25 privilege applicable to consulting Page 79 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 experts so if it did not, you can 2 answer. 3 A. It did not. It was on cellulose 4 research. 5 BY MR. KRISTAL: 6 Q. So when you went over to Europe you 7 were consulting with Bernstein about both the 8 asbestos research proposal and the cellulose 9 research? 10 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 11 form. 12 THE WITNESS: It wasn't on 13 asbestos this research at that point 14 in time. It was a discussion on 15 asbestos but it was more oriented 16 around some work we were considering 17 doing on cellulose. 18 BY MR. KRISTAL: 19 Q. And is that why Deardorff was there? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. He was with International Paper at the 22 time? 23 A. That's correct. 24 Q. He's now with Exponent. 25 A. Um-hum. Page 80 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 Q. Yes? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Did he do any work on the asbestos 4 project while he was with Exponent? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Was it at the meeting with Deardorff 7 and Bernstein in Europe where you were 8 discussing cellulose that you discussed with 9 Bernstein about the litigation-driven research 10 proposal for asbestos? 11 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 12 form. 13 A. Well, No. 1, no. 14 There was two separate meetings. 15 There was one on cellulose and then 16 there was one on just a discussion of 17 asbestos. 18 MR. KRISTAL: Why don't we go off 19 the video record. 20 THE VIDEO OPERATOR: The time is 21 10:53 a.m. Going off the video 22 record. 23 (Whereupon, a break was taken.) 24 MR. KRISTAL: I'm officially 25 marking as Exhibit 2 the two-page Page 81 )rity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 printout from the Web site that 2 Mr. Schneider was kind enough to have 3 one printed out for us. 4 MR. SCHNEIDER: That's what we 5 referred to as Exhibit 2 earlier. 6 What has now been marked as Exhibit 2 7 is now that reference. 8 MR. KRISTAL: Right. 9 (Exhibit 2 was marked for 10 identification.) 11 THE VIDEO OPERATOR: We are back 12 on the record with videotape No. 2. 13 The time is 11:04 a.m. 14 BY MR. KRISTAL: 15 Q. Mr. Holm, did you share any of the four 16 PowerPoints that we've been discussing thus far 17 at any time with anyone other than the people 18 whom you have already mentioned you had shared 19 them with? 20 A. No. 21 (Exhibit 3 was marked for 22 identification.) 23 BY MR. KRISTAL: 24 Q. I'm going to mark as Exhibit 3 a copy 25 of your curriculum vitae. The Bates number is Page 82 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 NYCAL -- strike that. NYCAL 206 through 2078. 2 I'm going to hand you a copy and ask you if that 3 is indeed your curriculum vitae. 4 A. It is. 5 Q. How current is this? 6 A. Pretty current. I think there's a 7 couple of presentations that I've done since 8 this point that I've put on here. 9 Q. And in the overview section of your 10 curriculum vitae, the first sentence reads, 11 quote, "Prior work and current expertise focuses 12 on planning and management of human and 13 environmental health investigations, 14 litigation-driven scientific testimony and 15 research, regulatory compliance and strategic 16 environmental and scientific consulting," end 17 quote. Do you see that sentence? 18 A. I do. 19 Q. And you were talking there about your 20 work at Georgia-Pacific, I'm assuming. Is that 21 correct? 22 A. Not -- not completely, no. 23 Q. Okay. Well, when you were talking 24 about litigation-driven scientific testimony and 25 research, is there any project other than the Page 83 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 asbestos litigation defense project we've been 2 discussing that falls in that category? 3 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 4 form. 5 A. No. 6 BY MR. KRISTAL: 7 Q. Is it your -- strike that. Have you 8 testified before with respect to asbestos 9 litigation? 10 A. No, I have not. 11 Q. Do you expect to testify other than 12 today? I mean other than this deposition which 13 I'm sure is not going to end today but... 14 A. I -- there is other depositions I think 15 that are being suggested. 16 Q. Now, you have, as you note here, quote, 17 "Serves in leadership roles at several trade 18 associations and has provided expert testimony 19 related to toxicology and environmental 20 chemistry in various venues that include federal 21 regulators, state government, public hearings 22 and community groups," end quote. Do you see 23 that? 24 A. I do. 25 Q. Okay. What trade -- strike that. Do Page 84 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 you belong to any trade associations that 2 involve asbestos at all? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Have you ever heard of the Chrysotile 5 Institute? 6 A. I have. 7 Q. Have you ever attended any proceedings 8 of the Chrysotile Institute? 9 A. Proceedings, can you define that? 10 Q. Conferences. 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Tell me when you've attended Chrysotile 13 Institute conferences. 14 A. I don't remember the exact time frame. 15 I think it was 2003, 2004 they had a conference 16 with a variety of speakers. 17 Q. Is that the one where Dennis 18 Paustenbach spoke? 19 A. I think so. 20 Q. Is that the one where David Bernstein 21 spoke? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Other than that meeting were those two 24 folks and other people spoke, did you attend any 25 other Chrysotile Institute meetings? Page 85 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 A. No. 2 Q. And did you have a copy of Dennis 3 Paustenbach's PowerPoint presentation that he 4 gave? 5 A. I don't believe so, no. 6 Q. It's available online if you want it. 7 A. Oh, okay. 8 Q. Did you ever have a written copy of his 9 presentation? 10 A. I don't remember one, no. 11 Q. Okay. And Dennis Paustenbach was 12 suggesting to the audience that companies that 13 were defendants in asbestos litigation try to 14 recreate their products and do studies, right? 15 That was one of the things he was suggesting, 16 right? 17 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 18 form. 19 A. I don't remember what he presented 20 at that time. 21 BY MR. KRISTAL: 22 Q. When was the first time that you heard 23 about recreating products that hadn't been on 24 the market for over 30 years or close to 30 25 years? Page 86 )rity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 A. I don't even recall the first time. 2 Probably 15 years ago, maybe longer. 3 Q. What was that context? 4 A. It was biphenyl and benzene exposure. 5 Q. That was with your work at 6 Georgia-Pacific? 7 A. Not directly related, no, just interest 8 in manuscripts and the scientific literature. 9 Q. Okay. So you had read some manuscript 10 about 15 years ago where the subject of 11 recreating a product that hadn't been on the 12 market for a while was mentioned? 13 A. It was described, yes. 14 Q. Why did you go to the Chrysotile 15 Institute meeting where Paustenbach and 16 Bernstein spoke? 17 A. Background information. I didn't know 18 much about the subject at that point in time and 19 I thought it would be useful. 20 Q. Did you think the Chrysotile Institute 21 was going to give you a balanced view? 22 A. I really didn't know anything about the 23 Chrysotile Institute at that point in time. I 24 did know some of the speakers that would be 25 there. Page 87 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 Q. And what was your understanding of - 2 what is your understanding of what the 3 Chrysotile Institute is other than a lobbying 4 group for the asbestos industry in Canada? 5 A. I don't really - 6 MR. SCHNEIDER: Let me object to 7 the question and note I don't think 8 this falls within the list of topics 9 in the notice of deposition but as 10 general background information I'll 11 allow him to answer the question. Go 12 ahead. 13 A. I don't really know much about the 14 Chrysotile Institute. 15 BY MR. KRISTAL: 16 Q. Well, how did you even find out there 17 was a meeting at the Chrysotile Institute where 18 Paustenbach and Bernstein were gonna be 19 speaking? 20 A. I don't remember. 21 Q. The conference you're talking about 22 where Paustenbach and Bernstein spoke was after 23 you had met with Bernstein, correct? 24 A. I don't remember when the meeting was. 25 Q. Well -- Page 88 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 A. It could have been. 2 Q. This was 2006, was it not? 3 A. Like I said, I don't remember when it 4 was. I thought it was earlier than that but 5 perhaps not. 6 Q. Have you read any of the publications 7 put out by the Chrysotile Institute? 8 A. No. 9 Q. What was your -- what is your 10 understanding of what the Chrysotile Institute 11 is? 12 A. I really don't know much about them. I 13 have not participated in anything that they've 14 done. I know they have a Web site. That's 15 about all I know. 16 Q. Now, the Chrysotile Institute 17 conference you attended was where? 18 A. I think it was Montreal. 19 Q. Okay. So you flew up to Montreal to 20 attend this conference? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Was there anyone else from 23 Georgia-Pacific in attendance with you? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Were there any outside counsel of Page 89 Priority-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. 25B Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 Georgia-Pacific's involved in asbestos Page 90 2 litigation - 3 A. Not -- 4 Q. -- at that conference? 5 A. -- that I know of. 6 Q. How did you get to go to this 7 conference? What -- how did you find out about 8 it? Who suggested you go? 9 A. I remember a flier. I don't know how I 10 got it, if it was e-mailed to me by someone. 11 That's all I remember at this point. 12 Q. Do you have any materials from that 13 conference? 14 A. I doubt it. 15 Q. Do you have any understanding that the 16 goal of the Chrysotile Institute is to sell 17 chrysotile asbestos to developing countries? 18 A. I don't know the goal of the Chrysotile 19 Institute. 20 Q. Do you know if Bernstein's publications 21 have been presented in Chrysotile Institute 22 newsletters? 23 A. I didn't -- I think there's some 24 reference to Bernstein's work. I didn't know if 25 it was the entire publication or not. irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 Q. And what references to Bernstein's work 2 have you seen put out by the Chrysotile 3 Institute? 4 A. I don't know anything directly. I just 5 recall that that was -- that they have been 6 there. In terms of their -- I've heard that 7 they're in the newsletter. 8 Q. Prior to hearing Dennis Paustenbach 9 speak, had you ever met with him? 10 A. I've known Dennis for a long time. 11 Q. And Dennis used to be at Exponent, 12 correct? 13 A. He did, yes. 14 Q. He was. 15 A. Right. 16 Q. And did you speak with Paustenbach at 17 this conference about the research project you 18 were involved in for litigation at 19 Georgia-Pacific? 20 A. I don't recall any conversation with 21 Dennis at the meeting. I imagine that I spoke 22 to him but I don't remember what it was 23 inferring to. 24 Q. At the time of the Chrysotile Institute 25 conference, Paustenbach was with a group called Page 91 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 ChemRisk. Did you understand that? Page 92 2 A. I didn't know when he left Exponent and 3 started up ChemRisk again. 4 Q. Okay. Was ChemRisk considered at all 5 for any component of this litigation-driven 6 research project? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Why not? 9 A. They provided a presentation and they 10 were out-competed by Exponent. 11 Q. So it was a matter of price? 12 A. I don't think there was any prices at 13 that point in time. It was design. 14 Q. When -- was it Paustenbach that 15 presented, I'm assuming, for ChemRisk? 16 A. I'm sure he presented some. It was 17 Paustenbach and two women. 18 Q. Do you remember who they were? 19 A. I think one was Amy Madl and I don't 20 remember the other woman. 21 Q. It's M-a-d-l? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Where -- strike that. Was there one or 24 more than one meeting with ChemRisk? 25 A. One that I remember. irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 Q. And where was the meeting? Out in 2 California? 3 A. No. It was in Denver. 4 Q. Where in Denver was the meeting with 5 ChemRisk? 6 A. It was at a law firm in downtown 7 Denver. 8 Q. Was it Wheeler, Trigg? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Who was present at the ChemRisk 11 presentation other than yourself, Paustenbach, 12 Amy Madl, some other person who shall remain 13 unnamed at ChemRisk? 14 A. Till I can remember. 15 Q. Right. 16 A. John Childs was there and -- I think. 17 I'm pretty sure he was there and I believe Mary 18 McLemore was there. 19 Q. Going back to the prior meetings that 20 you had before the August 2005 assignment that 21 you got, was anybody taking notes or minutes of 22 those meetings? 23 A. There were certainly no minutes that I 24 can remember. I probably took a few notes. 25 Q. Okay. And I'm assuming whatever notes Page 93 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 you took you didn't throw away? 2 A. I could have at that point in time, 3 yes. 4 MR. KRISTAL: I would request any 5 notes that exist on that and I 6 understand your position on that - 7 not your position but counsel's 8 position. 9 THE WITNESS: Um-hum. I 10 understand. 11 BY MR. KRISTAL: 12 Q. Did you meet with Exponent at some time 13 around the time that ChemRisk made their 14 presentation? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. In Denver at Wheeler , Trigg as well 17 A. That's correct. 18 Q. -- during that same trip? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Did ChemRisk present more than once 21 A. I only remember one presentation. 22 Q. And who was present when Exponent 23 presented their presentation to you? 24 A. I believe it was Pat Sheehan and Greg 25 Brorby. I think that was all. Page 94 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 Q. Was Mr. Childs and Ms. McLemore present 2 as well? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. What was it about what Exponent was 5 suggesting that you felt was better for the 6 project than what ChemRisk was suggesting? 7 MR. SCHNEIDER: Sorry. I would 8 object to the question and, Mr. Holm, 9 I will instruct you that -- do not 10 reveal your thought processes and the 11 thought processes of counsel that 12 relate to the evaluation of projects 13 that were being considered and 14 undertaken in connection with 15 litigation. You can't provide the 16 details of that. You can let 17 Mr. Kristal know who was there, when 18 it was but you can't discuss your 19 impressions and decisions as part of 20 work product work. I'm going to 21 instruct you not to provide those 22 details. 23 THE WITNESS: Okay. 24 BY MR. KRISTAL: 25 Q. So can you answer? Do you need the Page 95 )rity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 question read back? 2 A. No. 3 Q. You can answer it without the details 4 that Mr. Schneider has talked about. 5 A. There's no way to answer the question 6 without providing detail. 7 Q. Was there any other consulting group - 8 well, strike that. Was ChemRisk competing with 9 Exponent for the portion of the 10 litigation-driven research that related to the 11 recreation of asbestos joint compound? 12 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 13 form. 14 A. Yes. 15 BY MR. KRISTAL: 16 Q. Were they making presentations on any 17 other part of the project other than the 18 recreation of asbestos joint compound? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. What other -- strike that. Were they 21 both presenting on the same subjects? 22 A. Yes, they were. 23 Q. And were they provided with the 24 subjects or did they themselves generate the 25 subjects? Page 96 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 A. I'm not sure how to answer that Page 97 2 question. Provided the subjects. 3 Q. In other words, did you or someone from 4 Georgia-Pacific say we'd like a presentation on 5 these subjects and they went ahead and presented 6 or did you say we want to do some research, tell 7 us what you think? 8 A. I think it was the latter. 9 Q. And they both happened to come up with 10 this same presentation about recreating asbestos 11 joint compound. 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Was there a discussion about locating 14 old Georgia-Pacific original asbestos joint 15 compound? 16 A. I don't believe so, no. Well, there 17 could have been. There could have been. I 18 don't recall that part. 19 Q. Now, you had experience with Exponent 20 before in your work with Georgia-Pacific, 21 correct? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Did you have any experience with 24 ChemRisk before? 25 A. No. irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 Q. Was that a factor in giving the 2 contract to Exponent? 3 MR. SCHNEIDER: I'm going to 4 instruct the witness not to answer. 5 That's a question about why the 6 company did or did not select a 7 particular consulting expert. I 8 think that's protected by the 9 privileges and protections associated 10 with consulting experts and expert - 11 consulting expert communications and 12 I instruct the witness not to answer. 13 BY MR. KRISTAL: 14 Q. Okay. What were the differences in the 15 design that was being proposed? 16 MR. SCHNEIDER: Again, those are 17 details with respect to 18 communications with consulting 19 experts that are protected under the 20 law and I instruct the witness not to 21 answer that question. 22 BY MR. KRISTAL: 23 Q. Were you aware of Exponent's lengthy 24 involvement in asbestos litigation defense 25 before this meeting in Denver? Page 98 )rity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And you were aware that they had 3 received millions and millions of dollars from 4 other asbestos defendants in litigation, 5 correct? 6 A. I have no idea about the amount, no. 7 Q. Okay. You had certainly read the 8 number of different publications that were 9 generated from their work on asbestos 10 litigation, right? 11 A. I probably read the majority of them, 12 yes. 13 Q. Okay. They're like rabbits, they keep 14 multiplying, right? 15 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 16 form. 17 BY MR. KRISTAL: 18 Q. Were you also aware of ChemRisk's 19 involvement in asbestos defense? 20 A. Yes, I was. 21 Q. Did either group provide you with any 22 transcripts of testimony that any of their 23 employees have given over the years, either 24 deposition or trial testimony, in asbestos 25 litigation? Page 99 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 A. Not to me, no. Page 100 2 Q. Who did they give them to? 3 A. I don't know if they gave them to 4 anybody. 5 Q. Now, at some point in time Exponent was 6 awarded a contract by Georgia-Pacific for this 7 litigation-driven research, correct? 8 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 9 form. 10 A. That's correct. 11 BY MR. KRISTAL: 12 Q. Who gave the contract to whom? Did you 13 present the contract to someone at Exponent? 14 A. I believe it was John Childs that 15 presented it to Pat Sheehan. 16 MR. KRISTAL: I'd request a copy 17 of that. I haven't seen it in what's 18 been produced. We have contracts 19 from some of the other consultants 20 but I haven't seen the Exponent 21 contract. 22 BY MR. KRISTAL: 23 Q. When was it that Exponent signed on for 24 this litigation-driven research project? 25 A. It was sometime during 2006. irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 Q. Did they sign on before or after 2 Bernstein's contract which was -- the initial 3 contract was January '06. 4 A. It was very near the same time. 5 Q. Were there any discussions with 6 Exponent about hiring Bernstein as an additional 7 consultant? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Was there any discussion with Exponent 10 about their ability to subcontract to other 11 consultants? 12 A. I don't know if that was part of it or 13 not. I don't remember if it was during that 14 time frame or if it was afterwards -- or later I 15 should say. 16 Q. Was there any discussion with Exponent 17 about publishing the results of whatever work 18 they were doing for this litigation-driven 19 research project? 20 A. That was the intent, yes. 21 Q. To publish the results? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And how was that intent expressed? In 24 other words, is it in their contract? Is it - 25 was it a letter or just discussions with them Page 101 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 verbally or - 2 A. I don't believe it's in the contract. 3 It was verbal discussions between myself and 4 Exponent. 5 Q. Okay. Did you ever consider hiring a 6 consultant for this group that was more neutral 7 than the two groups you consulted with, ChemRisk 8 and Exponent, who had lengthy involvement in 9 asbestos defense? 10 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 11 form. And I will instruct you, Mr. 12 Holm, that your decision-making 13 process and the decision-making 14 process of the company in determining 15 what consulting experts to hire or 16 not hire is protected activity 17 protected by the work product 18 privilege, attorney/client privilege 19 and I will instruct you not to answer 20 about your decision-making process. 21 THE WITNESS: Okay. 22 BY MR. KRISTAL: 23 Q. Who was it that came up with the names 24 of ChemRisk and Exponent to interview for this 25 project? Page 102 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 A. That would be me. Page 103 2 Q. And why did you do that? 3 A. Because I knew about what they could 4 provide and I knew their background and the 5 rigor that went into their evaluations. I knew 6 the people personally as well. 7 Q. Who did you know personally? 8 A. Well, I know Dennis and I knew Pat and 9 Greg. 10 Q. How did you know Dennis prior to this? 11 We're talking about Dennis Paustenbach. 12 A. Yes. Oh, I don't know the first time I 13 met Dennis but we've both been in the toxicology 14 area for a long time so probably at the risk 15 assessment specialty section at the Society of 16 Toxicology. 17 Q. And I'm assuming -- well, strike that. 18 Did you know that Dennis Paustenbach has been 19 involved in lots of toxic substance litigation 20 defense over the years including asbestos? 21 A. I'm very familiar with Dennis' 22 background. 23 Q. Therefore, the answer to that question 24 is yes? 25 A. That would be yes. irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 Page 104 1 Q. What litigations were you aware of with 2 respect to Dennis Paustenbach before you 3 interviewed him for this particular project in 4 terms of other litigations he was involved in 5 defending? 6 MR. SCHNEIDER: I object to the 7 question. It doesn't relate to the 8 topics that are in the 30(b)(6) 9 notice and certainly not among the 10 topics listed but to the extent that 11 we can provide brief background 12 information, I'll permit it but it's 13 really going afield, but go ahead. 14 A. Chromium and 15 benzene. 16 BY MR. KRISTAL: 17 Q. And did you also have an awareness at 18 the time that you were interviewing the folks 19 from Exponent that they have also been involved 20 in helping defend a number of other litigations 21 besides asbestos? 22 A. Yes, but I don't have a list of what 23 those would be. 24 Q. Who do you know at Exponent? You had 25 mentioned you knew Dennis Paustenbach. Who did irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 you know before this at Exponent? Page 105 2 A. Well - 3 Q. Obviously you've coauthored with Yvette 4 Lowney. 5 A. Right. And -6 Q. She's at Exponent, correct? 7 A. She's at Exponent. And I'm trying to 8 think of the other guy's name at Exponent that 9 was part of those publications and I can't 10 recall at this point in time. Betty Anderson. 11 Well, there's -12 Q. She's one of the upper level 13 management - 14 A. Yeah. 15 Q. -- at Exponent? 16 A. Yeah. She was my boss when I got out 17 of grad school. Tom Deardorff is there. I mean 18 there's numerous people that I know. 19 Q. How many other toxicology consulting 20 firms are there in the country? Hundreds, other 21 than ChemRisk and Exponent? 22 A. I don't know the number. It's 23 numerous. 24 Q. Did you consider any other toxicology 25 consulting outfits other than ChemRisk or irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 Exponent for this particular asbestos project? 2 A. I believe there was a third one but 3 I -- I can't remember the name off the top of my 4 head. 5 Q. The third one whose name you can't 6 remember, were they also interviewed and 7 present? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Okay. So they were considered but 10 didn't get that far in the process? 11 A. That's correct. 12 Q. Getting back to your curriculum vitae, 13 your master's was earned in 1987 in chemical 14 oceanography? 15 A. That's correct. 16 Q. Is there a specialty that you 17 considered yourself to have in your field prior 18 to getting involved in this asbestos litigation 19 project? 20 A. I think inhalation toxicology was one 21 specialty, yes. 22 Q. But not involving asbestos. 23 A. No. 24 Q. And not involving any -- strike that. 25 Did it involve any fibers? Page 106 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 A. Yes, it did. 2 Q. Cellulose? 3 A. Correct. 4 Q. Any other fibers? 5 A. No. I mean I've read literature on - 6 well, fiberglass. 7 Q. A number of your publications have to 8 do with the effect of various discharges on 9 wildlife, is that fair to say? 10 A. Yes, it is. 11 Q. And was that a specialty of yours? 12 A. Yes, it is. 13 Q. Is it fair to say that -- you list a 14 number of different publications that were 15 generated from this litigation-driven research 16 policy, is that fair to say? 17 A. Yes. Yes. Sorry. 18 Q. Now, if you look at the bottom of page 19 3, there is the first article -- articles and 20 peer-reviewed journals, do you see that? 21 A. Um-hum. Yes. 22 Q. The first one is a Bernstein lead 23 author -- Bernstein lead author article with Ken 24 Donaldson and yourself as the last author 25 entitled, quote, "Quantification of the Page 107 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 pathological response and fate in the lung and Page 108 2 pleura of chrysotile in combination with fine 3 particles compared to amosite-asbestos following 4 short-term inhalation exposure," end quote. Do 5 you see that? 6 A. I do. 7 Q. And that's listed as having been 8 accepted for publication. That's not out yet, 9 is it - 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. -- or -- it is. 12 A. I got notification this morning from 13 David Bernstein that that's been published. 14 Q. Okay. It's online? 15 A. Yes. Early Online I think it's called. 16 Q. Right. Because I couldn't find it last 17 night. 18 A. Okay. 19 Q. Maybe we'll have it later. Now, had 20 that article been submitted to other journals 21 previously and rejected? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Is that article a continuation of the 24 series of studies that Bernstein has been 25 primarily leading for this litigation-driven irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 research project? 2 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 3 form. 4 A. Yes. All the authors have their 5 own role but David has been most 6 responsible. 7 MR. SCHNEIDER: And by the way, 8 Jerry, that -- there is a copy of a 9 version of that article in the 10 production set. 11 MR. KRISTAL: No. I saw that and 12 I didn't know - 13 MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. 14 MR. KRISTAL: I was trying to get 15 the actual published - 16 MR. SCHNEIDER: Right. 17 MR. KRISTAL: That wasn't even 18 the accepted for publication. 19 MR. SCHNEIDER: Right. It was 20 a -- it was one that says uncorrected 21 proof. 22 MR. KRISTAL: Oh, okay. Then I 23 haven't seen that one. 24 MR. SCHNEIDER: It's 1815 in your 25 set. Page 109 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 Page 110 1 MR. KRISTAL: Okay. 2 THE WITNESS: Yeah. That's 3 those are galleys so that has been 4 accepted for publication in that 5 form. 6 BY MR. KRISTAL: 7 Q. The next article, Brorby, Sheehan, 8 that's the Exponent group and yourself along 9 with Berman, that was published in 2011, right? 10 That's already out. There's no date on your CV 11 but - 12 A. Right. 13 Q. -- that has come out, correct? 14 A. That is correct. 15 Q. And that is a complete article on an 16 abstract that you had submitted in 2008 with the 17 same title, right? 18 A. I don't -- abstract where? It probably 19 went to American International. 20 Q. The International - 21 A. Yeah. One of the meetings -- one of 22 the scientific -23 Q. Right. 24 A. -- meetings. It was a -- yeah, a 25 combine between AIHA and the other group I can't irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 remember. 2 Q. I have a little group - 3 A. Okay. 4 Q. -- who will be taking a look at it at 5 some point in time. 6 A. All right. 7 MR. SCHNEIDER: What was the 8 title of that one? 9 MR. KRISTAL: Quote, "Potential 10 artifacts" - 11 MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. Thanks. 12 MR. KRISTAL: -- "associated with 13 historical preparation of joint 14 compound samples and reported 15 airborne asbestos concentrations," 16 end quote. 17 THE WITNESS: That abstract is 18 probably in the abstracts section of 19 the CV. 20 BY MR. KRISTAL: 21 Q. Right. 22 A. Somewhere. 23 Q. Page 8. Right. The International 24 Society for Environmental Epidemiology. It's 25 listed on page 8. Page 111 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 A. I don't see it right now but... Page 112 2 Q. It's the fifth one down on page 8. 3 A. Okay. Right. 4 Q. Was that correct, that's - 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Why did it take so long for it to go 7 from a 2008 abstract until 2011 to get 8 published? 9 A. Well, in 2008 it was just an abstract 10 and it takes a long time to write these 11 articles, especially when you have a lengthy 12 group of authors. 13 Q. Tell me the process for -- strike that. 14 Was the process essentially the same for all the 15 articles that have been generated from this 16 litigation-driven research? 17 A. Process in terms of what? 18 Q. Preparing a manuscript for submission 19 for publication. 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Tell me what that process is. 22 A. Well, the hypothesis would be generated 23 and then the protocol would be developed, the 24 data gathered, the data discussed, the initial 25 draft of the paper written and iterations of irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 that draft manuscript, the peer-reviewed Page 113 2 comments and finally it's a final publication. 3 Q. Now, does the designation of the lead 4 author mean they were the ones who wrote the 5 manuscript and circulated it for various 6 comments? 7 A. It means they wrote the initial draft 8 or had a large role in writing the initial draft 9 and then it was iterative among the authors in 10 terms of how it was developed. 11 Q. So someone would get a copy and then 12 add comments and recirculate and it would go 13 back and forth until there was a final draft 14 that everybody was willing to sign off on? 15 A. That is correct. 16 Q. Do you have the actual written 17 protocols for each one of these studies? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And they're in -- either on your 20 computer or in the file cabinet? 21 A. They were in the actual article. 22 Q. Well, let me take a step back. You say 23 the first step is to generate a hypothesis, is 24 that fair to say? 25 A. That's correct. irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 Page 114 1 Q. And a hypothesis is a question that you 2 are seeking to have answered, correct? 3 A. Yes. It's a statement, not necessarily 4 a question. 5 Q. It's a statement that you want to 6 generate data around in order to get some 7 scientific answer to see whether or not it's 8 valid or not, is that - 9 A. That is correct. 10 Q. -- fair to say? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Are you saying that after the 13 hypothesis was generated for each one of these 14 studies that a written protocol was developed as 15 to how exactly the group was going to try to 16 answer the hypothesis? 17 A. It wasn't always written. It depends 18 on the paper you're talking about. Sometimes a 19 protocol was already available. Sometimes we 20 had to develop it uniquely. 21 Q. For the protocols that were already 22 available, what are you talking about? Are you 23 talking about the synthetic mineral fiber 24 protocol from Europe? 25 A. It was -- that's one of them. The -- irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 it was the synthetic mineral fiber protocol from 2 Europe but it's also in the -- as determined by 3 EULC was included both for asbestos and 4 synthetic mineral fibers. 5 Q. So the studies that followed the 6 protocols you just mentioned, did they ever 7 deviate from those protocols in any way? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And were those deviations from the 10 protocols preplanned? 11 A. Yes, they were. 12 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 13 form. 14 BY MR. KRISTAL: 15 Q. And are they -- was the preplanned 16 deviations from the protocols written somewhere 17 before the studies were begun? 18 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 19 form. 20 A. I believe they probably 21 are. 22 BY MR. KRISTAL: 23 Q. And I'm assuming you would have those 24 somewhere if they were written down? 25 A. Well, they're written down in the Page 115 )rity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 article. 2 Q. No. I understand that. I'm talking 3 about -- well, strike that. When you're 4 conducting a scientific study, you develop a 5 plan as to how you're going to conduct the study 6 before you write the article, right? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And you develop the analyses that you 9 intend to do before you write the article before 10 you conduct the study, right? 11 A. That's correct. 12 Q. Analyses that are done after the fact 13 are called post-hoc analyses, right? 14 A. Post hoc I would say but yeah. 15 Q. And those analyses are not part of 16 original protocol because they don't arrive 17 until after you've had a look at the data 18 already, correct? 19 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 20 form. 21 A. Well, I'm not sure 22 when you would do something like 23 that. 24 BY MR. KRISTAL: 25 Q. Are all of the procedures and analyses Page 116 )rity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 that were going to be conducted on the studies 2 involving this litigation-driven research 3 project written down somewhere before the 4 studies were conducted? 5 A. Yes. 6 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 7 form. 8 BY MR. KRISTAL: 9 Q. And where are those maintained? 10 A. Some of them are in my files. Some of 11 them are like in previous written manuscripts so 12 it's a combination. 13 Q. Well, when you say they're in previous 14 written manuscripts, is there a document 15 entitled protocol for study X? 16 A. There -- for the biopersistence study, 17 yes. 18 Q. Okay. So when you say the 19 biopersistent study, you're talking about the 20 series of studies that Bernstein was the lead 21 author on? 22 A. That's correct. 23 Q. So all of those studies have a 24 pre-specified written protocol that indicates 25 what the analyses are going to be, how the tests Page 117 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 are going to be conducted, all of that? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Okay. And who has those? 4 A. Well, I have one in my file but I'm Page 118 5 sure David has one and I'm -- RCC probably is 6 the other group that has one. 7 Q. And RCC was the group that was hired by 8 Bernstein to actually dose the rats. 9 A. Do the inhalation component, that's 10 correct. 11 Q. Is that different than dosing the rats? 12 A. No. It's more specific. 13 Q. And does Bernstein have a financial 14 interest in RCC? 15 A. Not to my knowledge. 16 Q. And he used to be the manager of RCC, 17 right? 18 A. He was a director of inhalation 19 research or something at RCC. 20 Q. And he subcontracted with RCC to do 21 that component of what you call the 22 biopersistent studies? 23 A. I would call them more than 24 biopersistence but that would be the shorthand 25 for it. irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 Page 119 1 Q. So each one of the publications that 2 has Bernstein as a lead author has a written 3 protocol that was written and developed before 4 the study began. 5 A. That's correct. 6 Q. For the other studies are there written 7 protocols that were written and developed that 8 lay out what the hypothesis is that's being 9 tested before the studies were conducted? 10 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 11 form. 12 A. Yes. 13 BY MR. KRISTAL: 14 Q. All of them. 15 A. I think so, um-hum, that I can 16 remember. 17 Q. Okay. And where are those? 18 A. They would either be in my files or at 19 Exponent. 20 MR. KRISTAL: I would request all 21 of the protocols for all of the 22 studies that have been published and 23 any others that haven't been 24 published. 25 BY MR. KRISTAL: )rity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 Page 120 1 Q. Who was in the loop of reviewing drafts 2 of the manuscripts for the studies? 3 MR. SCHNEIDER: Just by way of a 4 note, Jerry, there are at least 5 certain documents that have the term 6 protocol and that are on the 7 privileged work product log so... 8 Just for your information. 9 MR. KRISTAL: Okay. I mean given 10 the timing of production, quite 11 frankly I don't know the details of 12 what is or isn't on the log so I'm 13 just going to be requesting these 14 things and we can make our arguments 15 later on. 16 MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah. I will 17 just tell you as a -- as a general 18 rule that we went to the -- collected 19 from the files and anything that we 20 found that related to the 21 biopersistence and recreation we put 22 on the log or produced, depending 23 upon whether it's privileged or not 24 so... But you're making various 25 requests and we'll listen and list )rity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 them, and I just wanted to note that 2 for the record. In any event, I'm 3 sorry to interrupt you - 4 MR. KRISTAL: No. That's okay. 5 BY MR. KRISTAL: 6 Q. I was asking who was in the loop in 7 terms of reviewing the manuscripts before they 8 were submitted for publication for all of these 9 studies. 10 A. The authors -11 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 12 form. Go ahead. 13 A. Okay. The authors in 14 general. 15 BY MR. KRISTAL: 16 Q. Anyone else? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Who was that? 19 A. There was one attorney at GP that was 20 part of that review team. 21 Q. And who was that attorney? 22 A. Mary McLemore. 23 Q. Were there meetings of the authors 24 where you could face-to-face deal with drafts of 25 the manuscripts for any of the studies? Page 121 )rity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 A. I don't remember any face-to-face Page 122 2 meetings to talk about the manuscripts. 3 Q. Okay. How about video conferencing or 4 Skyping or some other communications, phone 5 conferencing? 6 A. There are four -- two of the 7 manuscripts there was -- I don't know -- it 8 wasn't Skyping but WebEx and -- but for the 9 other ones it was mainly just in terms of 10 writing and talking on the phone. 11 Q. And where and when were those WebEx 12 conferences? Tell me the studies first, if you 13 would. 14 A. Yeah. It was the articles that I 15 wasn't an author on and it was the 2011 Simmons 16 and it was the 2011 Jones. 17 Q. Okay. So the two studies that were 18 done on non-asbestos joint compound that Environ 19 wrote - 20 A. Right. 21 Q. -- there were discussions of the drafts 22 of those manuscripts by phone or that was the 23 WebEx discussions? 24 A. That was the WebEx discussions. 25 Q. And had drafts of the manuscript for irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 those two studies been circulated prior to WebEx 2 so people could talk about it intelligently? 3 A. Maybe to the Environ people but not to 4 me. 5 Q. Were you on the WebEx conferences? 6 A. Yes, I was. 7 Q. And were you able to read the 8 manuscript that people were talking about while 9 the conference was going on? 10 A. That was the purpose, yes. 11 Q. Okay. So how were you provided with 12 the manuscript? 13 A. On the WebEx. 14 Q. So you're -- literally in real time as 15 the conference is going on, you're reading the 16 manuscript for the first time? 17 A. That's correct. 18 Q. And were you weighing in in terms of 19 suggestions or wordings or -- obviously you were 20 on for a reason. 21 A. Yeah. I mean for clarity, basically. 22 Q. So you were reviewing those 23 manuscripts, giving comments on this WebEx 24 conference and... 25 A. Yes. Page 123 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 Page 124 1 Q. Was that the final you had seen of 2 those manuscripts or did a final draft come 3 across your desk in some way before they were 4 published? 5 A. Of those two, that was the first and 6 only time I'd had a chance to look at them. 7 Q. And how long were these conferences? 8 It seems like it would take a while if you're 9 going through -10 A. Yeah. 11 Q. -- the manuscript -12 A. Well, you're right. It took, you know, 13 several hours, two to three hours 14 Q. Was Ms. McLemore present? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Was she involved at all? 17 A. She reviewed them in the same way that 18 I did. 19 Q. Okay. So she was at a different 20 location 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. -- interfacing with you and the folks 23 at Environ? 24 A. It wasn't interfacing with me at the 25 time. It was separate. irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 Q. Okay. So you had some WebEx 2 conferences where you saw the Environ 3 manuscripts and commented on them with the 4 Environ authors of those articles. 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And those took several hours. 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Independent of that, were there WebEx 9 conferences where the GP lawyer Mary McLemore 10 was on a WebEx conference with the Environ 11 authors? 12 A. That's my understanding. 13 Q. And am I understanding you to say that 14 that was different than the conference you were 15 on? 16 A. Yes. 17 MR. KRISTAL: Can we go off the 18 video record for a second. 19 THE VIDEO OPERATOR: The time is 20 11:47. Going off the video record. 21 (Whereupon, a break was taken.) 22 THE VIDEO OPERATOR: We are back 23 on the record. The time is 12:49 24 p.m. 25 MR. SCHNEIDER: All right. Just Page 125 )rity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 Page 126 1 a brief statement before we continue 2 with the deposition. We've had some 3 time at the deposition this morning 4 where there's been inquiry into both 5 privileged and non-privileged or 6 protected or non-protected areas. 7 I've made various instructions on 8 those areas. 9 Mr. Holm is available for 10 deposition today, the 6th, and 11 tomorrow, the 7th, and the 8th and 12 Georgia-Pacific would request that 13 all questions that fall in the 14 non-privileged or non-protected area 15 be completed; any documents that we 16 produce that questions be asked about 17 them; the published articles, 18 questions be asked about them and be 19 done in the time that -- the time 20 period that I've described. 21 I understand from plaintiffs' 22 counsel that they don't -- they want 23 to proceed in a manner of their own 24 choosing and there's -- at least some 25 of these issues get intermixed and irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 Page 127 1 therefore don't want to proceed in 2 that fashion. 3 But we notice that you noticed 4 the deposition from day to day. 5 We've made that block of time 6 available. I thought I had made that 7 clear in New York, but I wanted to 8 put that on the record and give you 9 the opportunity to respond and just 10 -- and we'll proceed from there. 11 MR. KRISTAL: Right. And my 12 recollection of the discussion with 13 Judge Heitler, H-e-i-t-l-e-r, which 14 was in her chambers pursuant to an 15 appeal of the special master's ruling, 16 was that she wanted us to work 17 together to get additional dates for 18 Mr. Holm's deposition but that the 19 6th, 7th and 8th -- or the 7th and 20 8th, which is tomorrow and the next 21 day, were not part of that discussion 22 because she wanted to have other 23 dates to come back as well to do some 24 of the privileged stuff if they rule 25 there's no privilege, so we have a irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 disagreement. 2 MR. SCHNEIDER: I understand. 3 MR. KRISTAL: My understanding 4 going into this -- and I don't think 5 there was any question -- was that we 6 were going to come down and we were 7 doing to do the deposition today and 8 then we were gonna look at dates - 9 at other dates, not tomorrow or 10 Wednesday. You know, I certainly, A, 11 don't have either clothing or 12 scheduling time to accommodate the 13 7th and 8th. 14 MR. SCHNEIDER: All right. We 15 will -- our disagreement is noted. 16 Our position's on the record and we 17 can move forward. 18 BY MR. KRISTAL: 19 Q. Now, we were discussing the Environ 20 articles and the WebEx conferences before the 21 lunch break. Do you recall that? 22 A. Yes. 23 (Exhibit 4 was marked for 24 identification.) 25 BY MR. KRISTAL: Page 128 )rity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 Page 129 1 Q. I'm going to mark as Exhibit 4 a letter 2 from Mr. Childs dated August 21, 2007, to Fred 3 Boelter attaching a consulting agreement. If 4 you would take a look at that. 5 Is this a contract whereby 6 Georgia-Pacific and what later became Environ 7 was doing work on this litigation-driven 8 research project? 9 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 10 form. And can I have a standing 11 objection to the form on your use of 12 the term litigation-driven and I 13 won't have to keep saying that? 14 MR. KRISTAL: Sure. But quite 15 frankly it's not my term. 16 MR. SCHNEIDER: I saw you point 17 it out in the resume, but it can have 18 different meanings and therefore I 19 object to the form. So if I could 20 have a standing objection on it, I 21 won't object to every question on 22 that ground. Is that acceptable to 23 you? 24 MR. KRISTAL: Sure. 25 MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. )rity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 MR. KRISTAL: Well, acceptable 2 that any question where I use that 3 you have an objection to me using it. 4 Is that what you're - 5 MR. SCHNEIDER: Yes. That's what 6 I mean. Exactly. Thank you. 7 MR. KRISTAL: As we go forward. 8 MR. SCHNEIDER: Yes. 9 BY MR. KRISTAL: 10 Q. Is this the consulting agreement that 11 Environ or what became Environ signed and was 12 doing research for this litigation-driven 13 research project? 14 A. Yes. It's not what was becoming 15 Environ. Boelter joined Environ. It already 16 existed, but that's the proper agreement. 17 Q. Okay. So let me ask you this then. 18 Fred Boelter as part of Boelter Associates was 19 the consultant that was hired by 20 Georgia-Pacific. It was not originally Environ, 21 is that what you're saying? 22 A. That's correct. 23 Q. And when Boelter joined Environ, the 24 contract just followed him in essence? 25 A. Yes. Page 130 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 Page 131 1 Q. And this letter attaches the consulting 2 agreement, does it not? 3 A. Let me look at the last page. 4 MR. KRISTAL: And for the record 5 it's NYCAL 10 through 13. 6 A. Yes. 7 MR. KRISTAL: It's N-Y-C-A-L in 8 all caps. 9 BY MR. KRISTAL: 10 Q. Let's take a look at the consulting 11 agreement if we could. First of all, it's 12 signed by both Mr. Childs and Fred Boelter, is 13 it not? 14 A. Yes, it is. 15 Q. And under the first paragraph, 16 engagement it says, quote, "client" and that 17 would be Georgia-Pacific, right? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Quote, "Client hereby engages Fred 20 Boelter services and others he deems appropriate 21 through consultant to assist the client in 22 connection with an independent evaluation of 23 certain asbestos exposure reconstruction 24 project," and that was termed the project, end 25 quote. Do you see that? irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 A. Yes, I do. 2 Q. Okay. Now, what asbestos exposure 3 reconstruction work project is this talking 4 about? 5 A. Well, it's talking about the field 6 investigation and also the combination study 7 that tied in the asbestos and non-asbestos 8 material. 9 Q. Well, when you say a combination study 10 that tied in the asbestos and non-asbestos 11 material, what are you talking about? 12 A. It was the chamber, the -- not in the 13 warehouse but the Exponent chamber generated 14 data on particulate and fiber and that tied in 15 to the particulate data that was generated in 16 the chamber in the warehouse. 17 Q. On the non-asbestos. 18 A. That's correct. 19 Q. In what way did it tie in? 20 A. It looked at the emission of 21 particulate from both the historic as well as 22 the new joint compound and applied that to what 23 would be calculated from the asbestos material 24 for the new joint compound. 25 Q. Well, what's that got to do with the Page 132 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 non-asbestos product that's on the market now? Page 133 2 A. It doesn't have anything to do with the 3 current product. 4 Q. Okay. Was the Boelter studies -- tell 5 me what material they were looking at. 6 A. They -- they were actually looking at 7 modern-day ToughRock material from Marietta, 8 Georgia. 9 Q. So they were looking at joint 10 compound -- currently sold joint compound. 11 A. That's correct. 12 Q. And did they compare the components of 13 the current non-asbestos joint compound with any 14 of either the historical Georgia-Pacific 15 asbestos joint compound or the reformulated 16 joint compound? 17 A. Recreated, yes. 18 Q. And the -- what were the comparisons? 19 Were they the same, different? 20 A. They were pretty much identical except 21 for the asbestos material. 22 Q. And therefore what? I mean how did 23 that project fit into the whole big project? 24 A. Well, it was -- it was able to 25 calculate the expected asbestos fibers that irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 would be generated in the field. Page 134 2 Q. You're saying studies on joint - 3 current joint compound that doesn't have 4 asbestos in it can be used to calculate what 5 would have been in an exposure from asbestos 6 joint compound historically? 7 A. It -- not really, no, not exactly how 8 you've stated it. 9 Q. Well, I'm trying to find out how 10 current non-asbestos joint compound studies has 11 anything to do with asbestos-containing joint 12 compound. 13 A. I understand. 14 Q. Okay. Can you tell me how if any way? 15 A. Yes. We have data from the -- from the 16 chamber -- from the Exponent chamber that shows 17 emissions of particulate and fiber and the 18 particulate matches pretty much identically 19 between the chamber and a field investigation 20 and we're able to calculate the emission of 21 particulate from both of those materials and 22 we're able to then calculate the amount of fiber 23 that would be released in the field. 24 Q. How do you -- would you do that? 25 A. Through the examination of the irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 recreated material compared to the modern 2 material. 3 Q. So you're saying if you take -- if you 4 sand recreated asbestos-containing joint 5 compound and look at it and you sand current 6 non-asbestos joint compound, you basically are 7 saying the non-asbestos particulate matter is 8 the same so you can make calculations of what 9 the asbestos exposures would have been? 10 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 11 form. 12 A. Not with just what 13 you said, but if you tie that in to 14 the emission of the historic 15 material -- a recreated material and 16 the emission of the modern-day 17 material, then you can calculate the 18 fiber that would be released from 19 historic material. 20 BY MR. KRISTAL: 21 Q. Is there an article that says that? 22 A. There is a -- at this point in time 23 there's an article that's been submitted. We 24 haven't received comments at this point. 25 Q. Okay. So there's another article Page 135 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 coming out kind of putting together what the 2 Exponent people did with what the Boelter people 3 did? 4 A. That's correct. 5 Q. And who's the lead author on that? 6 A. It's Greg Brorby. 7 Q. So he won the arm wrestling contest 8 with Boelter, is that it? 9 A. I don't know if they had one or not. 10 Q. Is Boelter a coauthor? 11 A. Yes, he is. 12 Q. Are you a coauthor? 13 A. I am. 14 Q. And where has that been submitted or 15 has it not yet been submitted? 16 A. It's been submitted and I don't recall 17 the journal at this point in time. 18 Q. Now, when this contract says in 19 connection with an independent evaluation, 20 what -- what is that? What independent 21 evaluation was Boelter supposed to do? 22 A. That was he being independent would 23 make that evaluation. 24 Q. So Boelter was given free reign to 25 conduct tests on non-asbestos joint compound? Page 136 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 A. Yes, he was. Page 137 2 Q. And did you ever meet with Boelter to 3 discuss with that -- to discuss that with him? 4 A. I don't know if I met with him. We did 5 have that discussion that that would be a useful 6 part of the project, to have some field data and 7 past that it was basically up to him until I saw 8 a draft of the article. 9 Q. Was anyone from Exponent involved in 10 discussions with Boelter either with you or not 11 with you regarding two projects they were 12 working on? 13 A. There was some discussion. 14 Q. Who was involved from the Exponent 15 side? 16 A. Wayne Berman, Pat Sheehan, Greg Brorby 17 and probably -- let me just get the name. I'll 18 forget his name. Ken Bogen. 19 Q. Is he from Exponent? 20 A. Yeah. He's a statistician from 21 Exponent. 22 Q. And when did these meetings take place? 23 A. I don't recall. A couple of years ago. 24 Q. Was it before or after the first 25 Brorby/Holm articles on recreation came out in irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 2008? 2 A. After. 3 Q. So those discussions came after this 4 consulting agreement which is August 2007. 5 A. Yeah. I would expect so, yes. 6 Q. Why didn't Exponent just do those 7 studies, the ones that Boelter ended up doing? 8 A. I'm sure they could have but the 9 Environ group was an organization that we wanted 10 to use. 11 Q. Why was that? 12 A. Just to have further consultants work 13 as part of the project. 14 Q. Okay. And I assume you knew before 15 Mr. Boelter was hired that he had extensive 16 experience in asbestos defense, right? 17 A. I didn't know Fred that well to know 18 that one way or another. 19 Q. Nobody told you Fred Boelter's been 20 testifying for years for asbestos defendants - 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. -- before you hired him? 23 A. Not at that point in time did I know 24 that. I was told later. Yes. 25 Q. Who were you told by? Page 138 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 A. John Childs. 2 MR. SCHNEIDER: I would simply 3 remind you, Mr. Holm, not to disclose 4 any communication that you had with 5 counsel. And I understand the 6 circumstance - 7 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 8 MR. SCHNEIDER: But just a 9 reminder. 10 BY MR. KRISTAL: 11 Q. Under the third paragraph of 12 Mr. Boelter's contract under client direction, 13 do you see that? 14 A. Yes, I do. 15 Q. It says, quote, "All of the 16 consultant's activities pursuant to this 17 engagement will be undertaken at the request of 18 client but will be conducted independent of any 19 direction from client. Consultant's tasks will 20 be defined by questions posed by John C. Childs, 21 chief litigation counsel of the client," end 22 quote. Do you see that? 23 A. I do. 24 Q. Is that your understanding of how the 25 process worked? Page 139 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 A. Yes. Page 140 2 Q. Were you ever at any meetings where the 3 questions to be asked of Mr. Boelter were 4 discussed? 5 A. No. 6 Q. So as far as you know, Boelter was 7 getting directions directly from Mr. Childs? 8 MR. SCHNEIDER: I would instruct 9 you, Mr. Holm, to answer that 10 question but only if you can -- only 11 if you can answer it without 12 revealing information shared during 13 the attorney/client privilege. 14 A. Okay. I don't know 15 if those communications occurred or 16 not. 17 BY MR. KRISTAL: 18 Q. The contract with Boelter, Exhibit 4, 19 continues, quote, "All reports, memoranda, 20 summary of findings and any similar documents 21 and communications are to be kept in the 22 strictest confidence by consultant and others 23 working on its behalf and are to be delivered to 24 the client only addressed to the attention of 25 John C. Childs, Chief Litigation Counsel," end irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 quote. Is that your understanding of how that 2 process worked? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Who owned the data, Georgia-Pacific? 5 A. No. Environ would have owned the data 6 in that case. 7 Q. Well, Environ owned the data but they 8 were not free to disclose it without 9 Georgia-Pacific's permission, is that fair to 10 say? 11 A. I think that's fair to say. 12 Q. And that's true with all of these 13 consultants, whatever studies they were doing, 14 before they could make any of the results 15 public, they had to get Georgia-Pacific's 16 permission, right? 17 A. I didn't review it to be that strict, 18 no. 19 Q. So if Exponent wanted to publish any 20 article they wanted using any of the data from 21 any of the studies, Georgia-Pacific would have 22 no say in whether they would be allowed to do 23 that or not? 24 A. Well, it was my understanding that any 25 data that would be generated would be produced Page 141 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 as a scientific manuscript. Page 142 2 Q. For all the projects. 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Going into the projects. 5 A. Yes, that's correct. 6 Q. And is that written down somewhere? 7 A. I don't believe so. It was just a 8 common understanding amongst the consultants. 9 Q. Who expressed that understanding to the 10 consultants? 11 MR. SCHNEIDER: Mr. Holm, I will 12 instruct you that your communications 13 with consulting experts are protected 14 under the law both as work product 15 and attorney/client privilege and I 16 would instruct you not to reveal the 17 content of those discussions. 18 THE WITNESS: Okay. 19 BY MR. KRISTAL: 20 Q. Well, what you're saying is 21 inconsistent, is it not, with the next paragraph 22 of Exhibit 4? It says, quote, "Consultant 23 agrees not to disclose and to hold confidential 24 all information and data received and generated 25 in connection with the services to be rendered irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 hereunder. Consultant acknowledges that all 2 materials disclosed to consultant by client and 3 the work consultant performs hereunder are 4 confidential and proprietary and consultant will 5 abide by all reasonable restrictions placed by 6 client on the dissemination of such materials 7 and work product," end quote. Do you see that? 8 A. Um-hum. 9 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 10 form. 11 BY MR. KRISTAL: 12 Q. What does proprietary mean to you? 13 A. Private. 14 Q. Proprietary -- private. And who owns 15 the proprietary material? It's not proprietary 16 to the consultants, right? It's proprietary to 17 Georgia-Pacific. 18 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 19 form. 20 BY MR. KRISTAL: 21 Q. Right? 22 A. I agree with that. 23 Q. So without Georgia-Pacific's 24 permission, these consultants were not free to 25 divulge the results according to the contract. Page 143 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 A. I would agree with that. 2 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 3 form. 4 BY MR. KRISTAL: 5 Q. The contract with Boelter goes on to 6 say, quote, "In event consultant is served with 7 a subpoena or other legal process requiring the 8 disclosure of such materials or work product, 9 consultant will promptly advise client and will 10 cooperate with client in responding to such 11 service or process," end quote. Do you see 12 that? 13 A. No, I don't right now. Where is it? 14 Q. It was the next sentence after we 15 finished. It's the top of - 16 A. Oh, okay. 17 Q. -- page 2. 18 A. Right. 19 Q. The last sentence of paragraph four. 20 Was that your understanding generally with 21 respect to all of the consultants, that if their 22 materials were subpoenaed they were agreeing to 23 cooperate with Georgia-Pacific before they would 24 respond to the subpoena? 25 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the Page 144 Priority-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. 25B Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 form. 2 A. Yes, I believe so. 3 BY MR. KRISTAL: 4 Q. I want to show you an e-mail -- or 5 e-mail chain, much of which is going back under 6 privilege claims, relating to your first meeting 7 with Mr. Bernstein. 8 MR. KRISTAL: Let me hand you 9 Exhibit 5. I'm going to hand it to 10 you first. 11 MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. Thank you. 12 (Exhibit 5 was marked for 13 identification.) 14 MR. KRISTAL: The first thing is 15 a copy of the chrysotile that was 16 attached to one of the e-mails. 17 While you're reading that, the Bates 18 numbers are NYCAL 954 through 997. 19 BY MR. KRISTAL: 20 Q. If you take a look at Exhibit 5, 21 please, Mr. Holm, the first two pages are what I 22 refer to as an e-mail chain and we'll explain 23 that for a second for folks who might be 24 watching this video. The rest of it is a copy 25 of a publication of Mr. Bernstein's that had Page 145 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 been accepted for publication and was going to Page 146 2 be published about six or seven months after he 3 had e-mailed it to you in October of 2005. 4 A. Okay. 5 Q. Okay? 6 A. Um-hum. 7 Q. So I want to first focus on the e-mails 8 and then we'll look at the article itself. 9 A. Okay. 10 Q. All right. An e-mail chain I'm sure 11 you're familiar with starts with someone sending 12 someone else an e-mail and then there's a 13 response and that response may get forwarded to 14 somebody else. It goes back and forth, so to 15 speak. 16 A. I understand. 17 Q. Okay. So if we're reading it, we want 18 to start at the end to see what the earliest 19 e-mail was and then pick up the chain. All 20 right. So down at the bottom you had sent an 21 e-mail to David Bernstein and you copied Mr. - 22 Dr. Deardorff and John Festa. Do you see that? 23 A. I do. 24 Q. And you wrote, quote, "The subject is 25 meeting," correct? irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 A. Um-hum. 2 Q. And the date of the e-mail is October 3 17, 2005, right? 4 A. Right. 5 Q. So that's a few months after you had 6 been given your special employee letter - 7 A. Okay. 8 Q. -- in August of 2005. 9 A. Okay. 10 Q. Correct? 11 A. Right. Right. 12 Q. You wrote, quote, "I understand from 13 John Festa that you are available to go over 14 your presentation on November 6th in Geneva. 15 Dr. Deardorff and I were considering staying at 16 the Beau-Rivage hotel downtown. Is this a 17 location that would work for you? Also, what 18 time is convenient? We'll be available in the 19 afternoon. Thank you, Stewart Holm." Do you 20 see that? 21 A. I do. 22 Q. Did you in fact go to Geneva and meet 23 with Bernstein? 24 A. Yes, I did. 25 Q. And was that in November 2005? Page 147 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 A. Yes. Page 148 2 Q. Okay. 3 A. Or November 6th so yeah. 4 Q. Well, the date there is November 6th. 5 I don't know if you actually met him on that 6 particular date. But sometime in November? 7 A. Yes. That's the day that we met with 8 him. 9 Q. Was that the first face-to-face meeting 10 that you had with David Bernstein with respect 11 to this litigation-driven research project? 12 A. That -- it wasn't part of the 13 litigation project at that point. I was just 14 talking to him about the concept. And this 15 presentation is on cellulose that he was 16 presenting to the IARC and not on asbestos. 17 Q. Okay. Did you -- at some time before 18 you went to Geneva, there must have been some 19 discussion about asbestos because if we come 20 forward in the e-mail chain, on October 21, 21 2005, Bernstein sent to you a copy of an article 22 that he had written about Brazilian chrysotile, 23 right? 24 A. Right. 25 Q. Was there a discussion about this irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 asbestos defense project with him? 2 MR. SCHNEIDER: I will object to 3 the question and instruct, Mr. Holm, 4 that to the extent you were having 5 discussions with Dr. Bernstein about 6 being a consulting expert with 7 respect to issues in the asbestos 8 litigation that you not disclose the 9 contents of those discussions. 10 A. Okay. We were discussing 11 the concept of doing specific 12 work. 13 BY MR. KRISTAL: 14 Q. And were you doing discussions of the 15 concept with knowledge that Bernstein had 16 already done the types of things he was - 17 ultimately did for GP for other asbestos 18 defendants? 19 MR. SCHNEIDER: I'm going to 20 instruct you not to answer the 21 question because it inquires into the 22 content of your discussions about a 23 consulting expert project. And I'm 24 instructing you not to answer. 25 THE WITNESS: Okay. Page 149 )rity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 BY MR. KRISTAL: Page 150 2 Q. Did you know that Bernstein before you 3 met him in Geneva in November 2005 had done work 4 for Union Carbide in asbestos litigation -- in 5 defense? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And how did you come to know that? 8 A. The calidria of biopersistence paper 9 that he wrote has the acknowledgment that it was 10 paid for by Union Carbide. 11 Q. He said it was a grant from Union 12 Carbide, right? 13 A. Okay. I don't recall the information 14 precisely. 15 Q. You know it wasn't a grant, though, 16 right? 17 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 18 form. 19 A. I don't understand your 20 question. 21 BY MR. KRISTAL: 22 Q. If the -- well, let's take a step back. 23 Calidria, c-a-l-i-d-r-i-a, is a type of 24 chrysotile asbestos, right? 25 A. Yes, it is. irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 Page 151 1 Q. And the calidria mines are owned by 2 Union Carbide, right? 3 A. That's correct. 4 Q. And Union Carbide is a defendant in 5 asbestos litigation for people alleging exposure 6 and consequence of that exposure to in part 7 calidria asbestos, right? 8 A. That's my understanding. 9 Q. And you were aware before you met Dr. 10 Bernstein that he was a testifying witness for 11 Union Carbide. 12 A. I didn't know that. 13 Q. Do you know that now? 14 A. No. 15 Q. You had read the calidria article 16 before you met Dr. Bernstein. 17 A. I read several of his articles before I 18 met him. I don't know if that was one of them 19 or not. 20 Q. And that was what he called a 21 biopersistence study using a rat inhalation 22 model, right? 23 A. That's probably close to the title. 24 Q. And he sent you another article of his 25 written on behalf of a Brazilian chrysotile irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 mining company, right? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And that article also is about the 4 biopersistence of Brazilian chrysotile in a rat 5 inhalation model, right? 6 A. Yes, it is. 7 Q. And the authors of this study became 8 the authors of the studies that were published 9 pursuant to the Georgia-Pacific project in which 10 you were coauthors, right? 11 A. One of them but not all of them. 12 Q. Well, wasn't Rick Rogers one of the 13 authors with you, coauthors? 14 A. He was -- not on the 2008 paper but... 15 Q. Okay. He was on the 2010 paper? 16 A. And 2011. 17 Q. The one that just came out today? 18 A. That's correct. 19 Q. And Bernstein obviously was on all 20 three of those papers, right? 21 A. Yes, he was. 22 Q. And George Chevalier the pathologist? 23 A. He's on all three of them. 24 Q. And what Rick Rogers' role in all of 25 this was he has an imaging company in the United Page 152 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 States and he was subcontracted out after 2 Georgia-Pacific had hired Bernstein. Bernstein 3 hired him to do some confocal microscopy and 4 some videotaping of different pathological 5 responses, right? 6 A. That's correct. 7 Q. Have you seen the videotapes that he's 8 prepared? 9 A. I have not. 10 Q. There are videotapes that he prepared, 11 though, correct? 12 A. Well -13 Q. He certainly charged you folks for it. 14 A. Yeah. It's in the contract. I think 15 I've only seen the images. I don't think I've 16 seen the videotape. 17 MR. KRISTAL: Okay. Well, we'd 18 request both the images and the 19 videotape. 20 BY MR. KRISTAL: 21 Q. So in this Brazilian chrysotile 22 article, Bernstein is the lead author, right? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And he used Rogers to do some imaging, 25 correct? Page 153 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 A. That's correct. Page 154 2 Q. And he used the RCC company to do the 3 actual inhalation study itself with the rats, 4 right? 5 A. That's correct. 6 Q. And he used Chevalier to do the 7 pathology, right? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And all four of those companies, if not 10 the individuals, did the work for 11 Georgia-Pacific, correct? 12 A. That's correct. 13 Q. And here down at the bottom of this 14 Brazilian article he said the study was 15 sponsored by a grant from and then it goes on to 16 list in Spanish a Brazilian -- maybe it's 17 Portuguese -- a Brazilian mining company, right? 18 A. I suppose that's what it is. 19 Q. And didn't he discuss this particular 20 study at the Chrysotile Institute conference you 21 attended? 22 A. I don't remember what his presentation 23 was. 24 Q. But you knew the upshot of this 25 research both from the calidria article and the irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 Brazilian chrysotile article before Page 155 2 Georgia-Pacific hired Bernstein was that he 3 didn't think chrysotile stuck around in the 4 lungs long enough of rats to cause any disease, 5 right, in essence? 6 A. Well, I think following the protocol 7 that he did, I think there was a range of 8 biopersistence that would be attributed to 9 chrysotile materials because he looked at it 10 from calidria to textile chrysotile. 11 Q. But you knew going in before 12 Georgia-Pacific hired Bernstein that he was of 13 the opinion based on studies he had already done 14 and written about that chrysotile doesn't stick 15 around in the lungs, doesn't biopersist in the 16 lungs long enough to cause any problem, right? 17 A. That's what -- the data would support 18 that finding. 19 Q. And you knew that going in when you 20 hired him. 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Now, do you know what the grant process 23 is? 24 A. No. 25 Q. You've never heard of somebody irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 submitting a grant proposal to somebody and then Page 156 2 to sponsor and then the sponsor saying I approve 3 the grant and giving them money? 4 A. Yes. I'm familiar with that. 5 Q. Okay. There was no grant proposal 6 submitted to Georgia-Pacific for Bernstein's 7 work, was there? 8 A. No. 9 Q. And Georgia-Pacific certainly didn't 10 give him a grant, right? 11 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 12 form. 13 BY MR. KRISTAL: 14 Q. For his asbestos work. 15 A. We -- we didn't give him one chunk sum, 16 no. 17 Q. You hired him, right? 18 A. Sure. Yes. 19 Q. Under a contract. 20 A. That's correct. 21 Q. That's different than giving someone a 22 grant - 23 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 24 form. 25 BY MR. KRISTAL: )rity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 Q. -- right? Page 157 2 A. Okay. 3 Q. Is it -- you're not saying hiring 4 somebody on an hourly contract is the same as 5 giving them a grant to do research, are you? 6 A. Well, I've seen grants given on an 7 hourly basis or on a -- not just as one chunk of 8 money. I've seen it done in a variety of ways. 9 Q. However it's done, Georgia-Pacific did 10 not give David Bernstein a grant to his 11 research, correct? 12 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to form. 13 A. Well, I -- okay. 14 I -- I guess my definition of grant 15 and yours may be different, but we 16 gave him a sum of money to complete 17 a task. 18 BY MR. KRISTAL: 19 Q. Well, you hired him as a litigation 20 consultant, correct? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And you hired him in part -- 23 A. Well, not just a litigation consultant. 24 We hired him as a scientific consultant with 25 regard to the litigation )rity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 Q. Let's look at his contract. Well, 2 strike that. Before Georgia-Pacific gave 3 Dr. Bernstein a contract, were you aware that he 4 had also done extensive work for tobacco 5 defendants in tobacco litigation? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Nobody told you that? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Have you come to learn that since? 10 A. I have not. 11 MR. KRISTAL: Let me show you 12 something. 13 (Exhibit 6 was marked for 14 identification.) 15 MR. KRISTAL: We'll mark as 16 Exhibit 6 -- this is a memo on 17 Battelle Laboratory letterhead. It's 18 a letter dated June 25, 1986, from 19 David M. Bernstein and Andrey 20 Nikiforov to Daniel Heck, manager of 21 life sciences for Lorillard, Inc. 22 Let me show it to counsel first and 23 then I'll read you something from it 24 and hand it to you. 25 MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, I would Page 158 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 object to any questions about this 2 document on the grounds that it's not 3 a topic listed in the 30(b)(6) notice 4 and he is not designated to discuss 5 this document and Dr. Bernstein's 6 work with Mr. Heck of Lorillard. So 7 we would object to any questions 8 about it and to any testimony he 9 provides is not the testimony of 10 Georgia-Pacific Corporation. It's 11 not under the 30(b)(6) notice. 12 MR. KRISTAL: We have differences 13 of opinion regarding the scope of the 14 30(b)(6) notice and what isn't or is 15 within the scope of that so we'll 16 just proceed from there. 17 BY MR. KRISTAL: 18 Q. Bernstein and his colleague wrote to 19 Dr. Heck, quote, "We were pleased to have you 20 visit our facility yesterday. We hope that you 21 found our discussions and the tour of the 22 laboratory to be informative. We are enclosing 23 the brochures, sample protocols and articles 24 that you requested while you were here. We hope 25 that you now feel as we do that our 18 years of Page 159 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 tobacco-related research experience and Page 160 2 state-of-the-art technology make us without 3 doubt the best qualified contract laboratory to 4 carry out this type of research," end quote. 5 That's in the first paragraph that I just read. 6 Is this the first time you're hearing 7 that Bernstein was involved for many years in 8 tobacco research? 9 A. Yes. Yes, it is. 10 Q. He never told you that at any point in 11 time? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Did you ever ask him that? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Did you ever ask him if he was involved 16 in any litigation at all before he was given a 17 contract? 18 A. I generally don't talk to him about 19 other past or current clients. 20 Q. Why is that? 21 A. I just -- that's just how I've done 22 things. 23 Q. What do you mean that's just how you've 24 done things? 25 A. Well, unless he wants to bring that up, irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 I consider that confidential and not really 2 relevant to what I'm working on. 3 Q. So the background and the type of work 4 and who someone's been working for is not 5 relevant to a decision whether you might want to 6 hire them or not? 7 A. Well, I looked through the literature 8 and I knew what Mr. Bernstein had done in the 9 areas of fiber toxicology and that's what I was 10 concerned about. 11 Q. And the work he had done in asbestos 12 fiber toxicology was all litigation defense 13 work, right? 14 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 15 form. 16 A. I don't know if all 17 of it was. I know what is published 18 in the literature appears to -- I 19 don't even know if that was related 20 all to litigation, no. 21 BY MR. KRISTAL: 22 Q. Well, the two articles you knew about 23 were related to litigation, right? 24 A. Well, I didn't know that this one was 25 or not, the Brazilian one. I did know the Union Page 161 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 Carbide was. 2 (Exhibit 7 was marked for 3 identification.) 4 BY MR. KRISTAL: 5 Q. Let me mark as Exhibit 7 the contract 6 between Georgia-Pacific and Bernstein that is 7 dated January of 2006 and have you take a look 8 at that. 9 MR. KRISTAL: Oh, I'm sorry. I 10 didn't... Do you want to look at my 11 copy? 12 MR. SCHNEIDER: No, no. That's 13 all right. 14 BY MR. KRISTAL: 15 Q. Do you see that? 16 A. I do. 17 Q. And is this in fact the contract 18 between Georgia-Pacific and Bernstein from 19 January of '06? 20 A. Yes, it is. 21 MR. KRISTAL: And the Bates 22 numbers are NYCAL 73 and 74. We need 23 to go off the tape for a moment. 24 THE VIDEO OPERATOR: The time is 25 1:27 p.m. Going off the video Page 162 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 record. Page 163 2 (whereupon, a break was taken.) 3 THE VIDEO OPERATOR: We are back 4 on the record with videotape No. 3. 5 The time is 1:31 p.m. 6 BY MR. KRISTAL: 7 Q. This contract, Exhibit 7, was signed 8 just about two months after you had first met 9 Dr. Bernstein in Geneva, correct? 10 A. In Geneva, yes, correct, because I had 11 met him previously. 12 Q. Okay. Had you met him before you went 13 to Geneva in November of 2005 pursuant to your 14 work on the asbestos litigation project? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Okay. The first time you met Bernstein 17 with respect to the asbestos litigation project 18 was in November of 2005, right? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Who was present at the meeting in 21 Geneva in November of 2005 when the subject of 22 asbestos was discussed with Dr. Bernstein? 23 A. Dr. Bernstein and myself. 24 Q. Was anyone on a phone - 25 A. No. irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 Page 164 1 Q. -- video conferencing? It was just the 2 two of you face-to-face? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Before this contract was signed in 5 January of 2006, did you have any other meetings 6 with Bernstein? 7 A. On the scientific project? Meetings, 8 no, we did not. 9 Q. Did you have any phone calls, e-mails, 10 discussions? 11 A. Not related to the scientific project, 12 no. 13 Q. What scientific project? 14 A. Well, I thought you were talking about 15 the biopersistence study -16 Q. Oh, okay. 17 A. -- that was being done by 18 Georgia-Pacific. 19 Q. Have you ever heard before you were 20 involved in this project of litigation-driven 21 science? 22 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 23 form. 24 A. No. 25 BY MR. KRISTAL: irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 Page 165 1 Q. The purpose of the contract as stated 2 here is, quote, "the client" -- that would be 3 Georgia-Pacific, right? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Quote, "The client hereby commits 6 itself to hire David -- Dr. David M. Bernstein 7 as a scientific/medical consultant," end quote. 8 Do you see that? 9 A. I do. It doesn't say litigation 10 consultant like we discussed earlier. 11 MR. KRISTAL: Well, I'd move to 12 strike as nonresponsive but -- 13 A. I said yes to start 14 with. 15 BY MR. KRISTAL: 16 Q. Right. And that part I have no problem 17 with. Now, Dr. Bernstein is not a medical 18 doctor, correct? 19 A. No. He's a Ph.D. in toxicology. 20 Q. Right. He's an animal inhalation Ph.D. 21 person, right? 22 A. That's his specialty. 23 Q. Right. So what medical consulting -24 what did you have in mind here? 25 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 form. Page 166 2 A. Medical in terms of 3 how his studies would be related or 4 predictive in their ability to review 5 human type of responses. 6 BY MR. KRISTAL: 7 Q. Is there a paper coming out on that? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Now, under specific tasks the contract 10 reads, quote, "The parties shall negotiate in 11 good faith the specific tasks of the consultant 12 which shall be described in separate 13 correspondence and which shall be considered an 14 integrated part of this agreement," end quote. 15 Do you see that? 16 A. I do. 17 Q. So at this point in time there had been 18 no specific tasks that Bernstein was going to be 19 asked to perform, is that fair to say? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Did you send him -- were you the person 22 who sent him separate correspondence on what the 23 tasks were to be that he was supposed to 24 perform? 25 A. No. irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 Q. Who did that? 2 A. I don't know of anybody that actually 3 did that. 4 Q. How were specific tasks given to 5 Bernstein? 6 A. They weren't, to my best knowledge. 7 Q. So what was your understanding of what 8 he was supposed to be doing at the time he 9 signed this contract? 10 A. He was supposed to be following the 11 protocol. 12 Q. What protocol? 13 A. The EULC protocol. 14 Q. It doesn't say that in the contract, 15 right? 16 A. I don't see it in here, no. 17 Q. Now, the instructions, it says here, 18 quote, "The consultant shall be fully instructed 19 about specific assignments requested, the person 20 or persons authorized to instruct him, protocols 21 and reporting requirements to enable him to 22 perform his tasks," end quote. Do you see that? 23 A. I do. 24 Q. Who was the person or persons 25 authorized to instruct him as to what he was Page 167 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 supposed to be doing? Page 168 2 A. I suppose that would be the attorneys. 3 Q. You never gave him any instructions one 4 way or the other? 5 A. No. 6 Q. No meaning you never gave him 7 instructions? 8 A. That is correct. 9 Q. And then under instructions it says, 10 quote, "The consultant commits himself to 11 diligently follow the instructions received 12 provided they do not conflict with existing 13 laws, regulations and principles of ethics and 14 professional conduct," end quote. Do you see 15 that? 16 A. I do. 17 Q. So under this contract Bernstein was 18 committing himself to follow the specific 19 instructions given to him by the Georgia-Pacific 20 attorneys, right? 21 A. I believe that's correct. 22 Q. And as compensation he was going to be 23 compensated at the amount of 350 Swiss francs 24 per hour, not including deposition and trial 25 testimony, right? irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 A. That is my understanding, yes. 2 Q. And the contract specifically has a 3 footnote that, quote, "All tasks excluding 4 deposition and trial testimony," end quote, were 5 going to be compensated at the 350 Swiss francs 6 per hour rate, right? 7 A. That's correct. 8 Q. So it was contemplated, was it not, at 9 the time that Bernstein and Georgia-Pacific 10 signed this contract that he was going to be 11 providing both deposition and trial testimony in 12 the future. 13 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 14 form. 15 A. Yes. 16 BY MR. KRISTAL: 17 Q. Did you discuss that with him in 18 Geneva? 19 A. No. 20 Q. When was the first time you found out 21 that Georgia-Pacific was going to get Bernstein 22 involved in actual testifying? 23 MR. SCHNEIDER: I object to the 24 form of the question and I also 25 instruct the witness that any Page 169 )rity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 Page 170 1 information that you've received from 2 counsel or discussions you've had 3 with counsel about who may or may not 4 be a testifying witness are protected 5 by the attorney/client privilege and 6 the work product doctrine and I 7 instruct you not to answer that 8 question. 9 THE WITNESS: Okay. 10 MR. SCHNEIDER: If you can answer 11 it based upon information you did not 12 receive from counsel or you did not 13 receive in connection with your 14 litigation defense work then you can 15 answer it. 16 THE WITNESS: It was all related 17 to discussions with counsel. 18 BY MR. KRISTAL: 19 Q. In addition to the 350 Swiss francs per 20 hour that Bernstein was going to be compensated, 21 that was also the same amount he was going to be 22 compensated while he was traveling for any work 23 pursuant to this project, right? 24 A. That's correct. 25 Q. Whether he was doing work or not doing irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 work while he was traveling. Page 171 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. So if he's sitting on a plane from 4 Switzerland to Atlanta for a meeting snoozing, 5 he was getting $350 an hour, right? 6 A. That's correct. 7 Q. Would you consider me for a contract 8 some day? I'm joking. 9 Under duration of the contract it says, 10 quote, "The duration of this agreement is a 11 minimum of 12 months. This agreement shall be 12 automatically renewed for a period of time of 13 the same duration unless the consultant has been 14 informed to the contrary at least one month in 15 advance before its initial term," end quote. Do 16 you see that? 17 A. I do. 18 Q. And this agreement has been 19 automatically renewed pursuant to this clause up 20 through today from January of '06, correct? 21 A. I would agree. 22 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 23 form. 24 BY MR. KRISTAL: 25 Q. Well, there's not been any -- there was )rity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 a contract shortly after this which I'll show Page 172 2 you which added a fee for the expert testimony 3 component. But other than that, this is the 4 same contract that Bernstein is working under as 5 of 2011, right? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Under the termination of the agreement, 8 the second paragraph, quote, "The client is 9 aware that in entering into this agreement the 10 consultant is giving up other assignments of 11 similar duration, therefore, in case of 12 termination prior to the term, the client shall 13 agree to pay the consultant compensation owed to 14 the consultant for the balance of duration," end 15 quote. Do you see that? 16 A. I do. 17 Q. Was it your understanding that 18 Bernstein was not going to be doing other work 19 and just doing the work for Georgia-Pacific? 20 A. I'm not sure I understand your 21 question. 22 Q. Okay. It says here that 23 Georgia-Pacific is aware that Bernstein is 24 giving up other assignments of similar duration 25 and the duration is 12 months. Do you see that? irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 2 form. 3 A. Okay. 4 BY MR. KRISTAL: 5 Q. So my question is: Was it your 6 understanding that Bernstein was giving up other 7 work and only working on this Georgia-Pacific 8 project? 9 A. Yeah. I don't recall. 10 Q. Now, he too was also under a 11 confidentiality agreement, correct? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. It says, quote, "The consultant is 14 aware that all information, data and documents 15 made available by the client to the consultant 16 in the course of the performance of his 17 assignment shall be deemed confidential; 18 therefore, the consultant commits himself not to 19 disclose to any third party such information 20 during the period of this agreement and after 21 its termination," end quote. Do you see that? 22 A. I do. 23 Q. So Bernstein was not free to simply 24 publish his results by himself, correct? 25 A. Well -- Page 173 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 2 form. 3 A. We did publish three papers 4 but... 5 BY MR. KRISTAL: 6 Q. Well, my point is absent 7 Georgia-Pacific's permission, Bernstein was not 8 free to publish any results of these studies. 9 A. The study results were always intended 10 to be published. 11 Q. Well, if Georgia-Pacific at any point 12 in time decided that they didn't want to publish 13 them then the consultants had agreed, that it 14 would remain confidential, right? 15 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 16 form. 17 A. That wasn't my 18 understanding. My understanding was 19 that any of the results that were 20 established would be put into the 21 peer-reviewed literature. 22 BY MR. KRISTAL: 23 Q. I understand what you're saying but my 24 point is at any point in time if Georgia-Pacific 25 had decided they didn't want to publish any Page 174 )rity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 results, they had the exclusive right to prevent Page 175 2 that from happening, right? 3 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 4 form. 5 A. This phrase seems to indicate 6 that. 7 BY MR. KRISTAL: 8 Q. And that's similar to the phrase we saw 9 in the Environ contract as well, right? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And frankly it's -- you were not free 12 to disclose anything to anybody including other 13 Georgia-Pacific employees, right, according to 14 the agreement you signed? 15 A. That's correct. 16 MR. KRISTAL: Let me mark as 17 Exhibit 8 -- this is a second 18 contract with Bernstein and this is 19 NYCAL 742 and 743 and it's signed by 20 Bernstein. I don't see the GP but 21 it's signed March of 2006. 22 MR. SCHNEIDER: Do you want to 23 mark your highlighted one? 24 MR. KRISTAL: Oh, I'm sorry. If 25 I did that, I didn't mean to. irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 Thanks. They're all highlighted 2 anyway. 3 (Exhibit 8 was marked for 4 identification.) 5 BY MR. KRISTAL: 6 Q. If you want to take a look at Exhibit 7 8, it is in essence exactly the same contract as 8 Exhibit 7 except for the addition of what 9 Bernstein's compensation would be for deposition 10 or trial testimony. Correct? 11 A. I haven't found that part. There it 12 is. Okay. 13 Q. Yeah. And compensation -- I'm sorry. 14 Paragraph four it adds a sentence that says, 15 quote, "For tasks involving either deposition or 16 trial testimony, the consultant shall be 17 entitled to compensation in the amount of 500 18 Swiss francs per hour," end quote. Do you see 19 that? 20 A. I do. 21 Q. Okay. So this is just an addition to 22 the original contract which sets the amount of 23 compensation for his trial testimony, correct? 24 A. That's what it looks like to me, yes. 25 Q. Now, my reading of the documents that Page 176 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 have been produced thus far is that at some Page 177 2 point in time both rates were set at 400 Francs 3 an hour so there was no differential. Is that 4 your understanding as well? 5 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 6 form. 7 A. Say that again. 8 BY MR. KRISTAL: 9 Q. At some point in time whether it was 10 trial work or non-trial work, the rate became 11 400 Swiss francs an hour. 12 A. That doesn't ring a bell. 13 Q. Okay. I'll show you the invoices in a 14 little while. Do you know if Bernstein met with 15 anyone else at GP other than with you that one 16 time in November of 2005? 17 A. At any time or... 18 Q. Before he signed the contracts. 19 A. I don't think so. 20 Q. Did you prepare something in writing to 21 provide to Mr. Childs after your meeting with 22 Bernstein in Geneva in November of 2005? 23 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 24 form. 25 A. I don't recall all irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 the detail that Mr. Childs heard at Page 178 2 that point in time around the work 3 that Dr. Bernstein was doing. I 4 don't believe that there was any 5 minutes or written documentation of 6 that discussion. 7 BY MR. KRISTAL: 8 Q. Whatever discussion you have then I 9 understand there's going to be an instruction 10 about details -- not to disclose details. There 11 was a meeting of some sort between you and 12 Mr. Childs and perhaps others reporting back on 13 what your meeting with Bernstein was about in 14 November of 2005, correct? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. How many meetings were there discussing 17 whether or not to hire Bernstein? 18 A. I don't recall. 19 Q. Who was present at those meetings? 20 A. Probably Mr. Childs and Ms. McLemore. 21 Q. Now, you knew going in what the results 22 were going to be of his biopersistent studies 23 before they were even conducted, correct? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Well, he had already done two irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 biopersistent studies with chrysotile, right? Page 179 2 A. Yes. Three I think at that point. 3 Q. And they all came out with in essence 4 the same results, right? 5 A. No. There was a quarter of a magnitude 6 difference between them. 7 Q. What was his ultimate conclusions as 8 you understood them from his biopersistent 9 studies with chrysotile before Georgia-Pacific 10 hired him? 11 A. Said that they had low biopersistence 12 and lack of responses in terms of pathology in 13 the lung. 14 Q. Meaning it didn't stay in the lung long 15 and had very little effect on the lungs of the 16 rats, right? 17 A. Yeah. It had no effects on the lungs 18 of the rats except for some minor macrophage 19 observations. 20 Q. There are a number of different 21 laboratories that do animal inhalation studies 22 around the world, correct? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Did Georgia-Pacific consider hiring 25 anybody else other than Bernstein? irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 Page 180 1 A. I looked at four specific laboratories. 2 Q. Who did you look at other than 3 Bernstein? 4 A. University of Rochester, the Fraunhofer 5 in Hanover -6 Q. Slow down, please, not just for my sake 7 but for Jennifer's sake. University of 8 Rochester. 9 A. Um-hum. The -- now you've got me off 10 line. 11 Q. Sorry. 12 A. The Fraunhofer. 13 Q. Could you spell that. 14 A. It's German. F-r-a-u-n-h-o-f-f-e-r 15 [sic]. And that's Germany in Hanover. And 16 then a laboratory in the central UK. The 17 principal investigator is a professor named 18 Colin Hardy, Dr. Hardy. 19 Q. Did you and - 20 A. And then RCC was the final one. 21 Q. RCC itself? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Did you meet with individuals from each 24 of these four other laboratories that do animal 25 inhalation work? irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 A. I did. Page 181 2 Q. Was that in generally the same time 3 frame that you had seen Bernstein in November of 4 2005? 5 A. No. It was before that. 6 Q. So you had seen the four labs, 7 University of Rochester, the group in Hanover, 8 Germany, this group in the central United 9 Kingdom and RCC in Switzerland? 10 A. I didn't visit the facilities but I'd 11 reviewed the publications that had come out of 12 those groups. I talked with some of the 13 specific individuals about their capabilities so 14 that was the line. 15 Q. Had any of these four institutions that 16 you had researched in terms of the animal 17 inhalation studies had any involvement in 18 asbestos litigation? 19 A. There was one other one. That was 20 Harvard School of Public Health. 21 Q. Okay. 22 A. So there's five. 23 Q. Did any of those five have any 24 involvement in asbestos defense? 25 A. I don't know. irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 Q. Did you ask them? 2 A. Probably not. 3 Q. Did any of the publications that they 4 had written that you read indicate one way or 5 the other whether they were involved in asbestos 6 litigation? 7 A. They probably did not. 8 Q. Now, why didn't Georgia-Pacific hire 9 RCC directly as opposed to hiring Bernstein who 10 then hired RCC? 11 MR. SCHNEIDER: Mr. Holm, your 12 process of selecting which consulting 13 expert to work with and how to 14 combine them and use them is 15 protected as defense camp material 16 under the work product doctrine and 17 also under the attorney/client 18 privilege and I instruct you not to 19 answer that question. 20 THE WITNESS: Okay. 21 BY MR. KRISTAL: 22 Q. Who at the Harvard School of Public 23 Health did you speak with? 24 A. Joe Breen. 25 Q. And who at the University of Rochester Page 182 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 did you speak with? Page 183 2 A. Mark Utell. 3 Q. Now, those two facilities certainly 4 have animal inhalation capabilities, correct, to 5 do studies? 6 A. Well, sort of. I mean like the Harvard 7 School of Public Health, the actual in-life 8 inhalation component was done at RCC so it seems 9 like RCC was used as -- in that way by a variety 10 of researchers. 11 Q. And what RCC would do in essence is 12 once it was decided for how long the rats would 13 receive the dose of whatever it is they were 14 inhaling, they would be put in these various 15 tubes and they'd be exposed to an aerosol for a 16 period of time and then they would be killed and 17 sent to another laboratory for analysis, right? 18 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 19 form. 20 A. Yes. 21 BY MR. KRISTAL: 22 Q. Now, over the course of a number of 23 years you were the point person, so to speak, with 24 respect to receiving the invoices from Bernstein 25 for the work as he was doing it, correct? )rity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And he would send you the invoices. 3 You would review it, sign off on it and send it 4 to somebody who then would have accounting to 5 figure out a way to wire Swiss francs to his 6 Swiss bank account, right? 7 A. Yes, pretty much that way. 8 MR. KRISTAL: I'm going to mark a 9 set of invoices from Bernstein. 10 We'll mark this as Exhibit 9. 11 (Exhibit 9 was marked for 12 identification.) 13 MR. KRISTAL: These are NYCAL 14 Bates numbers not necessarily in 15 order because I pulled the invoices 16 and put them into chronological order 17 because I thought that made more 18 sense as opposed to following the 19 Bates numbers. So the Bates numbers 20 are on each document but it doesn't 21 particularly go sequentially. Can we 22 go off the video record for a second. 23 THE VIDEO OPERATOR: The time is 24 1:52 p.m. Going off the video 25 record. Page 184 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 Page 185 1 (Whereupon, a break was taken.) 2 THE VIDEO OPERATOR: Back on the 3 record. The time is 2:06 p.m. 4 BY MR. KRISTAL: 5 Q. Mr. Holm, you have in front of you 6 Exhibit 9? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Maybe we went on the video record too 9 quickly. Do you want an opportunity to just 10 thumb through that or can you confirm that that 11 is a collection of various invoices sent to 12 Georgia-Pacific for payment by Bernstein along 13 with some underlying documentation and other 14 related material? 15 A. That's -- yeah, that's what it appears 16 to be. 17 Q. Okay. And the first one which is NYCAL 18 2808, it's dated Geneva, 31 January 2006, and 19 it's from Bernstein to you at Georgia-Pacific, 20 133 Peachtree Street, Atlanta, Georgia. That's 21 fairly close to where we are right now. 22 A. Pretty close. 23 Q. And he is sending you -- the reference 24 is an invoice, correct? 25 A. Yes. irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 Q. He writes, quote, "Dear Stewart, Page 186 2 following our agreement please find the attached 3 invoice for the honorarium and expenses for the 4 services requested for the period of January 5 2005," end quote. That's a typographical error, 6 would it not - 7 A. It seems to be. 8 Q. Now, these payments were not honoraria, 9 were they? 10 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 11 form. 12 A. I -- they were -- that's what 13 he calls them. 14 BY MR. KRISTAL: 15 Q. Exactly. But under the -- strike that. 16 Under your understanding of the word honorarium, 17 it's not payment that you get for services 18 rendered pursuant to a contract, right? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. You can call it whatever you want but 21 it's not an honorarium as it's commonly 22 understood, right? 23 A. I'd agree with that. 24 Q. Okay. In fact, all of his letters to 25 you use the word honorarium, if you want to flip irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 through here. Is that generally your Page 187 2 recollection? 3 A. Yes, it is. 4 Q. And you wrote to Mr. Childs here that 5 you are approving the invoice for payment and 6 this is -- I'm assuming this was probably the 7 first bill because you wrote, quote, "I don't 8 know how we pay this in Swiss francs. Maybe you 9 do," end quote. Do you see that? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Would that indicate it's probably the 12 first bill? 13 A. Yeah, I would imagine so. 14 Q. Okay. Just for the jury's sake at this 15 time wasit -- do you know what the exchange 16 rate was? Was it almost equivalent to US 17 dollars? 18 A. I think it was -- 19 Q. Pretty close. 20 A. I think it was .8 at that point in 21 time. 22 Q. Okay. So it varied from a little bit 23 less than a dollar to a little bit more than a 24 dollar at times. 25 A. I think currently it's a little bit irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 more than a dollar. Page 188 2 Q. Okay. And then the next page, just 3 using this as an example, it says invoice for 4 services rendered for the period of January 2006 5 and he had charged 16,118 Swiss francs. Do you 6 see that? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And that signature there with a circle, 9 that doesn't appear to be your handwriting. Is 10 that Mr. Childs signing off after you had 11 forwarded it to him as okay to pay that? 12 A. Yes, it is. 13 Q. Okay. Now, part of this bill in 14 January '06 was for travel expenses and there is 15 sort of a memo that notes -- the memo was NYCAL 16 3345 -- that there was a -- what Bernstein 17 called a business meeting Georgia-Pacific in 18 Atlanta on January 23, 2006. Do you see that? 19 A. I do. 20 Q. And he was paid for his travel time 21 pursuant to the contract, right? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And also his expenses for the airfare 24 were paid, right? 25 A. That's correct. irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 Page 189 1 Q. And Georgia-Pacific put him up at the 2 Ritz Carlton, right? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Not too shabby. Did he have kind of 5 free reign to stay wherever he wanted when he 6 traveled under this contract? 7 A. He usually -- I remember this precisely 8 because usually guests stay around the hotels 9 near our offices and they were all full because 10 of a convention and so that's why he stayed at 11 the Ritz Carlton in Buckhead. 12 Q. Well, if we look through this log of 13 invoices, which we are, he would stay generally 14 at high-end hotels whenever he was traveling 15 under this contract, right? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. He wasn't staying at the Holiday Inn, 18 right? 19 A. Well, the Ritz Carlton next door to us 20 is pretty low rate for the GP rate. That's why 21 I mentioned that. 22 Q. Okay. If you would turn to -- what I 23 did do in the lower left-hand corner, I put in 24 handwriting pagination so that you could follow 25 along. So if you turn to handwritten page 12... irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 A. Oh, I see what you did. Okay. 2 Q. It's NYCAL 3056. Page 190 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. This is a May 26, 2006 invoice from 5 Bernstein, correct? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Now, at this point your approval was 8 sent to - - that's Joel Mercer when you write, 9 quote "Joel, reviewed and approve"? 10 A. Well, I just -- usually there's a 11 letter on the front of the... 12 Q. There's usually a letter -- if I found 13 a letter, I usually put it in there. This was 14 culled from a much larger set of documents -- 15 A. Okay. 16 Q. -- that are all over the map. But on 17 this you handwrote reviewed and approve and sent 18 it on to Joel, right? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And then down at the bottom, JJM, 21 that's Joel Mercer, approved the payment of the 22 7,303 Swiss francs, right? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Now, at this point in time this is only 25 a couple of months into the contract, right? irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 A. Yes. Page 191 2 Q. And he charged for travel expenses, did 3 he not? 4 A. That's what it says. 5 Q. And on the next invoice there's June of 6 2006. There were travel expenses as well. Do 7 you see that? 8 A. Are you on 13? 9 Q. Yes. 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Do you know where he was traveling? I 12 did not find any kind of log as to - 13 A. No. 14 Q. Okay. Now, if you turn to page 16, 15 which is the October 2006 invoice, do you see it 16 says for -- quote, "for services rendered for 17 the period of October 2006"? 18 A. I do. 19 Q. And that's NYCAL 3121. And at this 20 point in time he also charged -- in addition to 21 the 350 Swiss francs an hour for his regular 22 work, he charged 500 Swiss francs an hour for 23 what he called, quote, "honorarium 24 deposition/trial," end quote. Do you see that? 25 A. I do see that. Priority-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. 25B Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 Q. Okay. And his deposition and trial 2 work is not what is commonly understood to be 3 honorarium, right? 4 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 5 form. 6 A. I'm not as familiar with the legal 7 terms, no. 8 BY MR. KRISTAL: 9 Q. Well, honorarium is not a legal term, 10 is it? It's a term - 11 A. No. 12 Q. -- that's commonly used for payment of 13 somebody. When you're not obliged to paying 14 them under a contract or otherwise, you give 15 them a little gift in essence for speaking 16 somewhere or doing some work. 17 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the - 18 BY MR. KRISTAL: 19 Q. Is that your understanding generally? 20 A. Yes. I'd agree with that. 21 Q. And a company involved in asbestos 22 litigation who hires someone under a contract to 23 testify at trial or deposition, when they pay 24 them for that work, it's not an honorarium, is 25 it? Page 192 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 A. No. 2 Q. And that was for -- I guess if we do 3 the math, he charged for about 30 hours of trial work and if you look on the next page, NYCAL 4 5 3122, apparently there was a deposition and testimony in Seattle, Washington, right? 6 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And that was October 2006? 9 A. Yes, it was. Q. Were you involved at all in preparing 10 11 him to testify for this or any other occasion when he's testified on behalf of 12 Georgia-Pacific? 13 14 A. No. Q. Did you meet with him pursuant to 15 16 deposition or trial preparation at any point in 17 time? 18 A. Yes. Q. When was the first such time? 19 20 A. It wasn't before this trial. I met 21 with him before a trial outside of Dallas. I 22 don't remember the date. 23 Q. 2007? 24 A. It could have been. 25 Q. Did you attend that trial as well? Page 193 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 A. I attended his testimony. Page 194 2 Q. At the trial. 3 A. Yes. Q. Other than that trial that you attended 4 in Dallas -- that was an asbestos trial and he 5 was testifying pursuant to the contract he had 6 7 signed with Georgia-Pacific, right? 8 A. Yes. Q. Had you attended any other proceedings, 9 whether it's a deposition or trial, where 10 Bernstein has testified for Georgia-Pacific? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Have you seen any transcripts of his 13 from other testimony he's given in asbestos 14 15 litigation? 16 A. I've read some depositions of his. 17 Q. Okay. And more recent or is that at the time you were hiring him? 18 19 A. I read one recently. Probably it was a 20 couple of months ago. 21 Q. And then in October -- strike that. 22 The trial in Seattle, do you know what the name 23 of that case was? 24 A. No. At least I don't recall the name 25 of it. irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 Q. Right. NYCAL 2557, which is Page 195 2 handwritten page 25, is an e-mail from Bernstein 3 to Marsha Fullard, F-u-l-l-a-r-d, and yourself about an invoice and it's dated December 1, 4 5 2006. Do you see that? 6 A. I do. 7 Q. And Bernstein is writing -- first of 8 all, Marsha Fullard, was she in the accounting department at Georgia-Pacific? 9 10 A. Fullard. 11 Q. Fullard. Thank you. 12 A. She's a paralegal. In the asbestos litigation department? 13 Q. 14 A. That's correct. 15 Q. Okay. And Bernstein is confirming the 16 transfer of 208,844 Swiss francs into his 17 account. Do you know what that was for? 18 A. I believe I do. What is your understanding of what that 19 Q. 20 was for? 21 A. That was for the first payment for the 22 inhalation component of the biopersistence work Q. Did Georgia-Pacific know going in how 23 24 much Bernstein's work would cost it? 25 A. You mean in total? irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 Q. Yes. Page 196 2 A. Bernstein's work in terms of how, for 3 David, for the studies or... 4 Q. The whole shebang that he was involved 5 with. A. We - 6 7 MR. SCHNEIDER: I object to the 8 form. 9 MR. KRISTAL: The whole shebang you're objecting to? It's a legal 10 11 term of art. 12 MR. SCHNEIDER: Yes. Vague, 13 ambiguous. 14 BY MR. KRISTAL: 15 Q. I'm talking about all the work he did pursuant to the contract, including all of his 16 17 subcontract. 18 A. We have fixed costs for RCC and RIC and 19 he was paid on a monthly basis. Q. What were the fixed -- RCC was the 20 21 group that actually had the rats in the tubes, 22 right? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And they're in Switzerland? 25 A. They're outside of Boswil, Switzerland. irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 Q. Okay. What was the fixed cost for 2 their work? A. It was -- and that was -- the 3 4 microscopy was included. That was at GSA so 5 that I think was about $750,000. Q. So what you're saying is the RCC work 6 7 which involved the actual rats inhaling the 8 aerosol and what you call the microscopy work which they subcontracted out to a German lab -9 10 A. That's correct. 11 Q. -- GSA -12 A. Yes. 13 Q. -- that whole component was $750,000? 14 A. Correct. 15 Q. And then the RIC component, that was the group in Massachusetts that was doing the 16 videotaping and photographing. 17 A. The confocal microscopy -18 19 Q. Confocal microscopy. A. -- is the real emphasis of that 20 21 activity. 22 Q. What is confocal microscopy? A. It's, you know, how -- phase contrast 23 24 light microscopy, we use simple light in terms 25 of looking at the specimen. What confocal does Page 197 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 is it uses a laser -- a high excitation laser so Page 198 2 you can look deep into the tissue so it's a cube 3 of material that you're looking, so a very thin 4 slice. Q. So sort of three-dimensional? 5 A. Three-dimensional is a good way to put 6 7 it. It allows you to look at the specific 8 location and along where a fiber might be 9 embedded. 10 Q. Well, the confocal microscopy was given particular samples to look at, correct? They 11 12 weren't sent a whole lung to just check out. A. Oh, no. They were sent, yes, 13 14 specific... Q. Specifics locations to - 15 16 A. Parts to the lung. 17 Q. Right. And those were chosen by Bernstein, right? 18 A. No. They were chosen by the protocol, 19 20 I believe. Q. Well, wasn't Bernstein involved in 21 22 writing that protocol? 23 A. He was, yes. 24 Q. And what was the fixed cost for RIC to Georgia-Pacific for their work? 25 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 A. I think it was around $700,000. Page 199 2 Q. And how much to date has Bernstein been 3 paid? 4 A. I think it was 850, 850,000. 5 Q. And we're talking US dollars - 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. -- even though he was getting paid in Swiss francs? 8 9 A. Yeah. My account sheet has it in 10 dollars. Q. And Exponent, I'm not sure we'll get to 11 their invoices today but I've seen the most 12 13 recent one at least -- and I'm not sure if this is a total or just for a certain project -- was 14 15 about three million 120 something thousand dollars. 16 A. I think the total right now is about 17 3.3 million. Q. And what was the total paid to Environ 18 19 which was originally Boelter? 20 A. I think it's about one and a half 21 million. 22 Q. And then Berman was paid as part of the Exponent bill, correct? 23 24 A. That's correct. Q. Now, was I reading the Exponent 25 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 invoices correctly where they were charging on Page 200 2 top of what Berman was charging them, 15 3 percent? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Why would GP do that? 6 A. Well, we could have done a contract with 7 Berman directly -- 8 Q. Exactly. A. -- and not pay the 15 percent but it 9 10 was just easier to do it that way. 11 Q. Okay. Donaldson, how much was he paid 12 total? 13 A. Not very much. Maybe $6,000. 14 Q. Okay. Were there any other consultants under contract to this litigation-driven 15 research that we haven't mentioned that GP has 16 17 paid? A. That covers all of them, either primary 18 19 contracts or subcontracts. Q. So we're about close to $8,000,000 20 21 approximately? 22 A. I -- 23 Q. About $7,000,000. 24 A. In my head I had closer to six but I 25 might have overstated on a few of those. irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 Page 201 1 Q. Well, it's in the six to seven million - 2 A. Okay. 3 Q. -- million dollar range in there 4 generally. 5 A. Well, that's a pretty broad range. It was my knowledge that it was around six million 6 7 dollars. Q. Well, whatever the numbers are, they 8 9 are. 10 A. Yeah. Okay. 11 Q. How much more has Georgia-Pacific budgeted for this ongoing series of studies? 12 13 A. We -- basically they're through. We 14 don't have any additional dollars at this point 15 in time. Q. Now, Exponent was actually paid for 16 17 writing the manuscripts which became the publications, correct? 18 19 A. Yes, they were. Q. Was Bernstein paid as well for his time 20 in writing the manuscripts? 21 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Was Boelter paid for his time in 24 writing the manuscripts? 25 A. I believe so. irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 Page 202 1 Q. Was Berman paid for his time through 2 Exponent which was ultimately paid by Georgia-Pacific for his involvement in drafting 3 the manuscripts? 4 5 A. Yes. Q. If you would turn to handwritten page 6 7 32, which is NYCAL 2096, it's a January 2007 8 invoice from Bernstein. Do you see that? 9 A. I do. Q. And he talks about a cancellation of 10 11 travel to New York. Do you see that? There was 12 some fee? 13 A. Okay. 14 Q. Did he eventually come to New York for some purpose related to this project? 15 A. I can't ever remember him -- being with 16 him in New York, but it could be he was just 17 18 flying through New York to Atlanta. 19 Q. For some other meeting or something. 20 A. Yeah. 21 Q. Okay. If we turn to page 39 22 handwritten, NYCAL 2576... 23 A. Okay. 24 Q. This is an e-mail chain and it's three 25 pages. Do you see that? irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 A. Yes. Page 203 2 Q. And if we start at the back, on 3 February 28, 2007, Bernstein sends Marsha 4 Fullard and copies you his invoice for services 5 for February of 2007. 6 A. Right. 7 Q. Do you see that? 8 A. Yes. Q. And then there was some discussion back 9 10 and forth between you and he about that invoice, correct? 11 12 A. I don1't know yet. I have to look 13 Q. Oh, I 'm sorry. Yeah. Just as a general rule, if you -- if I'm going to -- I was 14 15 not looking at you. I was reading this - 16 A. Yes. Q. -- so you need to let me know if you 17 18 need to catch up and if you want to look it or read 19 it or put it in perspective. 20 A. Yeah. This -- 21 Q. I'm not trying to rush you. 22 A. I understand. This is the first time 23 that happened so... Okay. 24 Q. Okay. Why don't you take a look at all 25 three pages of the e-mail -- irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 A. Okay. 2 Q. -- to orient yourself. 3 A. Okay. 4 Q. Now, after he had forwarded an e-mail 5 with his invoice for February of 2007, there was 6 some communication back and forth between you 7 and he, correct? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And he wrote to you on March 1, 2007, in an e-mail -- that's on handwritten page 40 10 towards the bottom, quote, "Stewart, I have 11 12 separated out the work for each project. I was 13 instructed by the lawyers to use only the one fee for the legal work so I readjusted 14 15 everything. Please let me know if this is as 16 you need. I will then send it again by post as 17 well. Best regards, David," end quote. Do you see that? 18 19 A. Yes, I do. Q. What is he talking about there? 20 A. He had basically merged all of his 21 22 hours into one bill, both the scientific work 23 and the legal work, and we asked him to separate 24 those out so that we could see which ones were 25 legal and we could apply them to a case and Page 204 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 which was scientific. Page 205 2 Q. Well, the scientific work was for litigation, right? 3 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. He wasn't doing it as an academic research project, was he? 6 7 A. It was pretty much academic, yes, but it was for -- 8 Q. But other than $850,000 and the fact 9 that it was litigation driven, I guess it was 10 11 academic. 12 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 13 form. And you interrupted him but... 14 MR. KRISTAL: Oh, I apologize for 15 interrupting. 16 MR. SCHNEIDER: Had you finished your answer? 17 18 THE WITNESS: Yes. 19 BY MR. KRISTAL: 20 Q. Are you saying that a consultant who is 21 hired and who has received $850,000 and has 22 testified in deposition and trial work and who 23 was hired under a project that was 24 litigation-driven research is similar to an academic institution doing research? Is that 25 )rity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 what you're saying? 2 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 3 form. 4 A I think the results by either laboratory would have been the same in 5 6 this case, yes. 7 BY MR. KRISTAL: Q. Well, why didn't you hire the Harvard 8 School of Public Health then? 9 10 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 11 form. Your decision basis for why you chose one expert over another, 12 13 I'm going to instruct you not to 14 answer. 15 THE WITNESS: Okay. 16 BY MR. KRISTAL: Q. There's another e-mail or two and you 17 wrote on March 1st further up the page the 18 contact attorney should provide you this 19 20 information regarding which case to bill it to. 21 Do you see that? 22 A. Yes. Q. And who -- who is or was the contact 23 24 attorney or does it vary depending on where the 25 case is? Page 206 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 A. It varies. Page 207 2 Q. Okay. So the contact attorney in this 3 context here is the particular local 4 Georgia-Pacific outside litigation lawyer who's working on a particular case for which Bernstein 5 6 is going to be testifying. 7 A. I don't think the contact attorney was 8 outside. I think they're inside but I'm not 9 sure about that. 10 Q. Okay. So the contact attorney here, at 11 least your present understanding, although 12 you're not sure about it, was someone in the 13 asbestos litigation department here at 14 Georgia-Pacific. 15 A. That's correct. 16 Q. Okay. And you wrote here, quote, "I'll 17 miss your depo in April. I'll be on the west 18 coast," end quote. When you said I'll miss your depo in April, what were you talking about? 19 20 A. I imagine he was being deposed. 21 Q. All right. And what -- I'm really more 22 focusing on the I'll miss on your part. Were you going to be attending his deposition? 23 24 A. That's what it looks from reading this. Q. Have you attended any of his 25 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 depositions? Page 208 2 A. No, not in person. 3 Q. Okay. Have you phoned in to hear what was being said at the deposition? 4 5 A. No. 6 Q. Okay. Have you attended the deposition 7 in some other way other than in person? 8 A. Just read the transcript. Q. Well, that's certainly not what you're 9 referring to here, right? 10 11 A. No. 12 Q. And then on the first page, March 26, 13 '07, there was again a follow-up on the request to split the work that was being done on the 14 animals from any trial work, correct? 15 16 A. That's correct. 17 Q. And then June of '07, handwritten page 18 50, NYCAL 2617, there's a letter attaching invoices, quote, "For the honorarium and 19 expenses for the services requested for the 20 biopersistence study and the trial work for the 21 22 period June 2007," correct? 23 A. That's correct. 24 Q. And if you turn two pages to 25 handwritten page 53, NYCAL 2620, there's an irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 expense listed there, June 17, 2007 deposition Page 209 2 in New York. Do you see that? 3 A. I do. 4 Q. Okay. Were you at that deposition? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Do you know what case that was? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Now, he: refers, on page 50, in his 9 letter he calls the honorarium both his 10 biopersistence study and his trial work, 11 correct? 12 A. That's what it looks like here, yes. Q. That's certainly not an honorarium, 13 right? 14 15 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 16 form. 17 BY MR. KRISTAL: Q. That's not your understanding of an 18 19 honorarium, correct? 20 A. That's correct. 21 Q. And on handwritten page 57, NYCAL 2641, 22 there's a July 31, 2007 invoice in which he says 23 the same thing, he calls his biopersistence 24 study and trial work an honorarium when he 25 submits the bill, right? irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 A. He does. Page 210 2 Q. And if you look at handwritten page 62, 3 NYCAL 2661, there's an expense there for August 4 13, 2007, and it's a site visit to the RCC 5 pre-study. Do you see that? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And what is the RCC pre-study? A. I believe we called -- 8 Q. Has that got changed to pilot study in 9 the publication? 10 11 A. Well, maybe or maybe not. I'm not 12 positive. We -- I think this trip, if I 13 was there, it was -- yeah, it was the pilot because I did attend the inhalation exposures 14 15 for the pilot. Q. So a pilot study was done first under 16 Bernstein's direction who was operating under 17 18 Mr. Childs' direction by RCC. 19 A. That's correct. 20 Q. And then the results of the pilot study were analyzed, correct? 21 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And then a decision was made to go 24 forward with the full study based on the results 25 of the pilot study, correct? irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 A. We -- yeah, we wanted to see if the 2 actual exposures using the asbestos with fine 3 particles would -- would indeed work with the 4 rodent. We hadn't seen that before and so that was the major emphasis, but the -- the full 5 6 study was always intended to be conducted if we 7 could -- if the pilot would show that it was 8 in fact feasible. Q. At any point in time Georgia-Pacific 9 could have called off any of this work, correct? 10 11 A. Well, that's not how we had it set up, 12 no. Q. Well, we know that the Bernstein 13 contract could have been terminated at any point 14 in time by Georgia-Pacific, correct? 15 16 A. That's what the contract stated, yes. 17 Q. Okay. And Georgia-Pacific could have terminated any of the other contracts if they 18 chose to, right? 19 20 A. Well, the idea - 21 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 22 form. Go ahead. 23 A. The idea was that 24 basically any of this literature - 25 any of this -- results would be in Page 211 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 fact put into a peer-reviewed Page 212 2 publication. 3 BY MR. KRISTAL: Q. And was -- I think you said earlier 4 5 that's not written down anywhere. 6 A. That's correct. 7 Q. So where did you get that understanding 8 from? A. 9 I got that understanding from my 10 attorneys but also through Dr. Bernstein. Q. Well, Dr. Bernstein didn't have the 11 12 authority to publish something absent Georgia-Pacific's permission, right? We've 13 14 already established that. 15 A. It's not written in the contract but 16 that was what we had discussed with 17 Dr. Bernstein. 18 Q. If you turn to page 65, September 2007, 19 there's another invoice for the biopersistence study and trial work, correct? 20 21 A. That's what the cover letter says, yes. 22 Q. And these are all just -- so anybody 23 watching this video, these are all addressed to 24 you. You were the point person, so to speak? 25 A. That's right. irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 Q. Okay. And then the next invoice, 67, 2 there's another invoice, October of 2007, for 3 biopersistence study and trial work. Do you see that? 4 5 A. I do. 6 Q. And you had sent a little handwritten 7 note to Marsha Fullard, okay to pay? 8 A. Yes. Q. And this -- what trial work was he 9 doing at this point in time? 10 11 MR. SCHNEIDER: I'm going to object and instruct Mr. Holm that to 12 13 the extent this reflects work with a 14 consulting expert that had not 15 resulted in actual deposition 16 testimony or trial testimony that 17 that is part of and covered by the 18 consulting expert privilege even work 19 preparing for trials, and I would 20 instruct you not to provide such 21 information. If you have information 22 about cases where Mr. -- or Dr. Bernstein was actually testifying as 23 24 opposed to preparing for a case, you 25 can identify cases where he actually Page 213 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 testified. Page 214 2 A. Okay. You're on 3 69? 4 BY MR. KRISTAL: 5 Q. Yes. No. Well, I'm on -- the bill for 6 67 says that for the period of October 2007 7 Bernstein had done some trial work. Do you see 8 that? 9 A. I do. Q. And then the earlier invoice for 10 11 September 2007 says the same thing. And I believe there was an August invoice that said 12 13 the same thing. 14 A. Yeah. Q. So I'm just trying to find out what was 15 16 the trial work that Mr. Bernstein was doing 17 during this period. And Mr. Schneider, your attorney, has given you the instruction he gave 18 19 you so... 20 A. Right. Q. You can answer the question in the 21 22 parameters that he has currently instructed you 23 to give. 24 A. What I was asking is the business 25 expense list on 69 is what you're referring to. irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 I just want to make sure I have all these tied Page 215 2 together. 3 MR. SCHNEIDER: He's on 67. He's 4 pointing to 67. 5 THE WITNESS: Right. It's - 6 BY MR. KRISTAL: 7 Q. Well, let me ask you this: Are you saying that the business expense on page 69, 8 9 which is NYCAL 2666, dated October 29, 2007, where there was some kind of redacted privilege 10 11 for the purpose of the visit in Boswil, Switzerland, was trial work? Is that what 12 13 you're saying? 14 A. I'm saying it's not trial work. 15 Q. It's not trial work. 16 A. None of this invoice was trial work. 17 Q. Right. So his letter saying there was 18 trial work was not trial work. 19 A. No. 20 Q. What was going on in Boswil, Dusseldorf 21 in October of 2007 where he expensed this money? 22 A. We did a site visit at RCC and then a 23 site visit at GSA. 24 Q. So you and he were traveling to check 25 out the labs? irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 A. We were. Page 216 2 Q. Had you ever done any work at -- strike 3 that. Had you ever been involved with any projects that involved RCC or GSA prior to this 4 5 asbestos project? A. 6 Yes. 7 Q. When was that? With the cellulose? A. 8 Yes. 9 Q. So why were you checking them out if 10 you had already I'm assuming checked them out? 11 A. Yes, we were checking them out. 12 Q. That's what I'm saying. But you had already worked with them, correct? 13 A. Right, but it was during the inhalation 14 15 phase of the study. 16 Q. Oh, I see. So this was checking out while the study's ongoing as opposed to before 17 the study -18 A. 19 That's correct. Q. How did the rats look? Not too happy? 20 21 A. No. They looked fine. 22 Q. Stuffed in a tube breathing asbestos, I 23 guess so. If you look at page 73 handwritten, 24 apparently you had dinner with Mr. Bernstein and the next page also -- you were traveling around 25 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 with him, is that fair to say? That's fair to say. 2 A. Page 217 3 Q. And he stayed at Les Trois Rois, The 4 Three Kings? 5 A. That's correct. 6 Q. I'm assuming that's high end just by 7 the name. 8 A. It's a nice hotel. 9 Q. If you turn to page 87, which is NYCAL 10 2735... 11 MR. SCHNEIDER: What number page 12 did you say? 13 MR. KRISTAL: 87. 14 BY MR. KRISTAL: 15 Q. There's an e-mail here talking about an invoice of Bernstein's being approved through 16 17 something called TrialNet. What is that? 18 A. It's a computer accounting program. 19 Q. Okay. So the monies paid under the contract were being just tracked under a 20 computer program? 21 22 A. Right. 23 Q. All of it, whether it was trial work or 24 non-trial work. 25 A. Yes. irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 Page 218 1 Q. Now, if you turn to page 92, the June 2 2008 invoice from Bernstein... 3 A. Okay. 4 Q. Do you see he's charged 350 Swiss francs an hour there? 5 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Okay. And if you look at the next 8 invoice for July of 2008, handwritten page 94, 9 the rate is now 400 Swiss francs an hour. Do you know why that changed? 10 11 A. Yeah. He increased his rate. Q. What did the trial rate go to? 12 13 A. I don't recall right now. 14 Q. The next page, handwritten page 95, is 15 July 27, 2008. Some sort of travel or meeting 16 he did. He stayed at the Three Kings Hotel 17 again. He traveled from Geneva to Boswil and 18 back. Do you know what that was for? 19 A. Yeah. That was part of the main study. Q. So he was visiting RCC? 20 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Now, while the study was ongoing and 23 the animals were being exposed to the asbestos 24 aerosol, Bernstein was in a different city, 25 right? irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 A. That's correct. Page 219 2 Q. Okay. So he wasn't actually conducting 3 -- continuing physically conducting the study, right? 4 A. No. 5 6 Q. And he didn't physically conduct the 7 microscopy work. That was GSA, correct? 8 A. That's correct. Q. And he didn't physically do any of the 9 10 confocal microscopy imaging or video imaging. That was done in Massachusetts, right? 11 12 A. That's right. Q. So why did you need Bernstein? 13 14 A. To pull it all together. He was 15 managing all the separate laboratories. Q. Certainly it wasn't a grant that 16 Georgia-Pacific had given him, right? 17 18 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 19 form. Asked and answered. 20 A. Yeah. I don't care what we call it. 21 It was dollars. 22 BY MR. KRISTAL: 23 Q. But whatever we call it, it wasn't a 24 grant, right? 25 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the )rity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 form. Page 220 2 A. That's fine. Yes. 3 BY MR. KRISTAL: 4 Q. Well, you know that you and he in the articles that you wrote with him said the money 5 6 came from a grant from Georgia-Pacific, right? 7 That's what you told the public. 8 A. That's true. 9 Q. And that's what you told editors of the journals to which the articles were submitted, 10 11 right? 12 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 13 form. 14 A. It was in the 15 article. I mean we didn't have a 16 different section in a letter to the 17 editor that stated anything one way 18 or another. 19 BY MR. KRISTAL: 20 Q. Well, you're familiar with conflict of interest disclosures that are required in 21 22 journals, correct? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And conflict of interest disclosures for Inhalation Toxicology, that journal requires 25 )rity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 disclosures in terms of any potential conflict 2 of interest that might exist, right? 3 A. Yes. Q. And those conflicts of interest 4 requirements are so the editors know if there's 5 any bias or potential bias in a study, right? 6 7 A. Yes. Q. And it also lets the public know, 8 9 somebody who's reading an article. There's a vast difference between someone who says I got 10 money from a grant and someone who discloses I'm 11 testifying at trial; I'm testifying at 12 13 deposition for this company. If you had 14 disclosed that you were specially employed as a 15 litigation consultant, that's something that readers of articles might want to know, right? 16 17 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 18 form. A. I don't know if they'd want to 19 20 know or not. I mean I was an author 21 on all of those - 22 BY MR. KRISTAL: 23 Q. Exactly. 24 A. -- manuscripts. 25 Q. And why did you let the conflict of Page 221 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 interest statement to state the money was coming 2 from a grant when you knew it wasn't coming from a grant? 3 4 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 5 form. A. I hadn't really 6 7 thought about the language in the 8 acknowledgement section one way or 9 another. It's different in some of 10 the other manuscripts. It doesn't 11 say grant. 12 BY MR. KRISTAL: 13 Q. Right. Exactly. Only the Bernstein ones said grant, right? 14 15 A. Yeah, I agree. 16 Q. And there's no disclosure in those 17 articles that he was acting as an expert witness for Georgia-Pacific, right? 18 19 A. I agree with that too. 20 Q. There's no disclosure that Georgia-Pacific was even involved in any 21 22 asbestos litigation in all of his papers that you coauthored with him, correct? 23 24 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 25 form. Page 222 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 A. That's true. Page 223 2 BY MR. KRISTAL: 3 Q. There was no disclosure that you were specially employed by GP as a litigation 4 consultant in asbestos litigation, right? 5 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 6 7 form. 8 A. I agree. 9 BY MR. KRISTAL: 10 Q. There was no disclosure that the 11 research underlying the three Bernstein publications was litigation driven as you wrote 12 13 in your CV, right? MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 14 form. 15 16 THE WITNESS: I agree. 17 BY MR. KRISTAL: 18 Q. There was no disclosure that Ken Donaldson, who was a coauthor with you, was also a 19 retained litigation consultant by 20 Georgia-Pacific, right? 21 22 A. Well, in his case, I don't consider him 23 a litigation consultant. He was a scientific 24 consultant. Q. Well, wasn't he an expert witness -- 25 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 considered an expert witness? Page 224 2 A. I don't think he's ever been an expert 3 witness for us. Q. Wasn't he considered by Georgia-Pacific 4 an expert for litigation purposes? 5 6 A. Considered, yes. 7 MR. KRISTAL: Can we go off the video record while I try to find 8 something. 9 10 THE VIDEO OPERATOR: The time is 2:47 p.m. Going off the video 11 12 record. 13 (Pause in the proceedings.) THE VIDEO OPERATOR: Back on the 14 15 record. The time is 2:48 p.m. 16 BY MR. KRISTAL: Q. I'm going to digress from the Bernstein 17 18 invoices for a moment and mark as Exhibit 10 some invoices from Ken Donaldson as well as some 19 other materials related to Donaldson and his 20 21 involvement here. 22 A. Okay. 23 MR. KRISTAL: Again, I have 24 handwritten numbered them because the NYCAL numbers were not consecutive so 25 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 Page 225 1 it's handwritten 1 through 33. 2 (Exhibit 10 was marked for 3 identification.) 4 THE WITNESS: Okay. 5 BY MR. KRISTAL: 6 Q. On the first page, handwritten page 1, 7 NYCAL 3405, it's a March 29, 2006 invoice sent 8 to you from Ken Donaldson for 150 pounds. Do that? 9 you see 10 A. Um-hum. Q. What was -- what was this for? 11 12 A. I met with Ken to discuss his interest in being a consulting expert for GP 13 Q. For the asbestos litigation project? 14 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And was he sent a contract or was it less formal than that? 17 18 A. I don't recall ever having a contract. 19 I think it was just on an hourly basis. 20 Q. Okay. And the next page, pages 2, 3, 4 21 and 5 handwritten, which is NYCAL 3046 -- I'm 22 sorry. 3046 is a standalone -- 23 A. Right. 24 Q. -- e-mail from you to Marsha Fullard. Do you see that? 25 ority-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. > Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 A. Yes. Page 226 2 Q. And you said this is an invoice from 3 our expert in Scotland, right? 4 A. Right. Q. He has made a request for payment in 5 6 pounds, right? 7 A. Yes. Q. And you prefaced all that by saying, 8 quote, "Here's another challenge for you," end 9 10 quote. Do you see that? 11 A. I do. Q. And then on the next page Marsha 12 13 Fullard from the asbestos litigation law department of Georgia-Pacific sends an e-mail to 14 15 someone at Navigant Consulting. What kind of 16 consulting group is that? Is that on accounting 17 matters? 18 A. I suppose so. I have no idea. 19 Q. Okay. And Miss Fullard writes, quote, "Please have one set up an account for this 20 Scottish expert witness, Kenneth Donaldson," end 21 22 quote. Do you see that? 23 A. Um-hum. Yes. 24 Q. And you're saying he was not considered 25 an expert -- irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 A. No. Page 227 2 Q. -- who might testify. 3 A. I didn't say that. I said he was under 4 consideration. 5 Q. Oh, okay. And he was receiving money, 6 if you look at page 6 -- July 2007 he sent an 7 invoice for 1,560 pounds. Do you see that? A. Where are you? 8 Q. Handwritten page 6 - 9 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. -- NYCAL 2486. 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And he says in his invoice to you that it was a subcontract to Craig Poland, 14 P-o-l-a-n-d. What was going on here? 15 16 A. I don't know. I don't know who Craig 17 Poland is. Q. Well, Ken Donaldson was submitting 18 money to help pay for Ken Poland's time, right? 19 20 A. Craig Poland. Yeah. 21 Q. I'm sorry. Craig Poland. You don't 22 remember who he is? 23 A. No. 24 Q. And then on page handwritten 9, May of 25 2008, another 875 pounds. Do you see that? irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And what was this work for? 3 A. I'm not sure but it's probably his review of -- and his input into the first 4 5 biopersistence study paper. Q. The first Bernstein paper that you 6 7 coauthored that was published in 2008? 8 A. That's correct. Q. Now, you had also been forwarded a 9 letter that Donaldson and another person named 10 11 Oberdorster was -- were writing as a letter to the editor defending Bernstein's work which had 12 been criticized in a journal, correct? 13 14 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 15 form. 16 A. It actually was 17 Bernstein's use of the biopersistence model that both Gunter and Ken were 18 authors on the ULCE document 19 20 discussing it. 21 BY MR. KRISTAL: 22 Q. Okay. So let's try to untangle this a 23 little bit. In the International Journal of 24 Occupational and Environmental Health there was an article published that criticized Bernstein's 25 Page 228 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 rat inhalation model that he had used previously 2 and the one that he was also using for 3 Georgia-Pacific, correct? A. That's correct. 4 5 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 6 form. 7 BY MR. KRISTAL: Q. And Donaldson and who you refer to as 8 9 Gunter Oberdorster were drafting a letter to the editor criticizing the article that had 10 criticized Bernstein, correct? 11 12 A. It wasn't an article. It was an 13 opinion but yes. 14 Q. It was a published opinion criticizing 15 Bernstein and they were sending a letter 16 criticizing the criticism, right? 17 A. That's correct. 18 Q. And they were circulating that letter 19 to Bernstein, correct? 20 A. Yes. Q. And at that time they certainly knew 21 22 that Bernstein was involved in this asbestos 23 litigation project for Georgia-Pacific, right? 24 A. Yes. Well, Ken did. I don't know if 25 Oberdorster did or not. Page 229 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 Page 230 1 Q. Okay. So Donaldson certainly knew when 2 he was forwarding the drafts of the letter that Bernstein was working on this asbestos 3 litigation project with you because he had 4 billed for time on the project, right? 5 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And the letter -- the draft of the letter which was a criticism of the criticism of 8 Bernstein was being sent to you as well, 9 correct? 10 11 A. That is correct. 12 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the form. It's not at all clear what 13 Bernstein you're talking about - 14 what Bernstein work you're talking 15 16 about. That's the basis of my 17 objection. 18 MR. KRISTAL: Oh, okay. We'll 19 untangle it. 20 BY MR. KRISTAL: Q. The criticism that appeared in the 21 22 International Journal of Occupational and Environmental Health of Bernstein's methodology 23 24 was not a criticism of the GP studies, correct? 25 A. That's correct. irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 Page 231 1 Q. They were criticisms of the methodology 2 that was used in the Bernstein calidria studies 3 and Brazilian chrysotile studies, correct? 4 A. That would be correct. 5 Q. And that was the same methodology that was being used in the GP studies, correct? 6 7 A. It was I believe so -8 Q. Okay. 9 A. -- in each and every case. Q. So although the criticism of 10 Bernstein's methodology wasn't directly 11 criticizing the Georgia-Pacific studies, it was 12 13 criticizing the methodology under which the 14 Georgia-Pacific study was being undertaken. 15 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 16 form. 17 A. It was -- yes, for the 18 most part. There was -- yeah, for the 19 most part. 20 BY MR. KRISTAL: 21 Q. Now, when Donaldson and Oberdorster 22 sent their letter to the International Journal 23 of Occupational and Environmental Health, they 24 went out of their way to say they had no ties to 25 asbestos, right, in the letter? )rity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 A. I think it said it was asbestos 2 litigation, didn't it? That's what -- 3 Q. Well, on handwritten page 20, it's NYCAL 1362 -- do you see that? 4 5 A. Um-hum. Q. That's a copy of the letter that was 6 7 sent to the International Journal of Occupational and Environmental Health on which 8 you had been copied, right? 9 10 A. Yes. Q. Okay. And they wrote in the middle of 11 the first paragraph, quote, "While not allied to 12 any asbestos manufacturing company nor any 13 pro-asbestos pressure group nor being in receipt 14 of funds from any such source, we feel it is 15 beholden on us to clarify the situation 16 regarding the use of biopersistence data 17 generally and the Bernstein data specifically," 18 19 end quote. Do you see that? 20 A. I do. Q. Well, they certainly were -- at least 21 22 Donaldson was in receipt of funds from Georgia-Pacific at that time, right? 23 24 A. Yes, he was. Q. And -- because the letter was written 25 Page 232 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 June 2010, right? Page 233 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And he had been consulting as a paid consultant with Georgia-Pacific on the asbestos 4 5 litigation project since 2006, right? 6 A. From time to time, yes. 7 Q. When you got a draft of the letter did you tell them that's not true, what you're 8 9 saying - A. I didn't -- 10 Q. -- for the funding? 11 A. I didn't have any correspondence with 12 13 Ken on this. Q. So the answer is no. 14 15 A. That's correct. 16 Q. All right. Let's go back to Exhibit 9. 17 If you go to handwritten page 119. 18 A. Okay. Q. It's an invoice again from Bernstein to 19 20 you for his work, correct? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And the next page is the actual invoice 23 and then the next page is a wire transfer 24 request form. Do you see that? 25 A. Yes. irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 Q. And it's signed off by Joel Mercer, 2 chief counsel asbestos litigation, right? 3 A. Yes. Q. And the matter -- the subject was 4 asbestos expense, correct? 5 A. Where are you looking? 6 7 Q. Right above Joel Mercer's signature. 8 A. Okay. Yes. Q. So this was clearly not designated by 9 Georgia-Pacific as any kind of grant, right? 10 A. Not on this form. 11 Q. Well, not on any form, right? 12 13 A. Agreed. Q. If you turn to the next handwritten 14 page, it's the March 2009 invoice and then 15 behind that - 16 A. Do you have a page number? 17 18 Q. Yes. I'm sorry. It's the next page, 19 handwritten 122. 20 A. Okay. 21 Q. NYCAL 2780. If you turn to the next 22 page, there's an expense report. 23 A. Right. 24 Q. Do you see that? 25 A. Um-hum. Page 234 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 Page 235 1 Q. And this is for a Society of Toxicology 2 meeting in Baltimore, March 2009, correct? A. 3 Yes. 4 Q. Now, at this point in time not only was 5 Georgia- Pacific having the results of the 6 studies put into the public domain for 7 publication but they were also presenting the 8 results at different meetings around the country, correct? 9 A. Yeah. We presented at the Society of 10 11 Toxicology. 12 Q. Well, you presented at the Society of 13 Toxicology the results of some of the studies 14 here in Baltimore, correct? 15 A. That's correct. 16 Q. You also presented at the Society of Toxicology annual meeting in 2010 in Salt Lake 17 City, Utah, correct? 18 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And you presented the results of some 21 of the studies at the Society of Toxicology 22 meeting in 2011 in Washington, DC, correct? 23 A. That's correct. 24 Q. And it was presented at other meetings 25 as well, some of the results of some of the ority-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. ! Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 studies. Page 236 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Now, were you physically present at 4 these meetings when the results were presented? A. I know I was at all of the three of the 5 6 SOT meetings. I think I was for -- when 7 Exponent presented as well each and every time. 8 Q. And at these meetings when you these - 9 strike that. Were these poster presentations? Were they PowerPoint presentations? How 10 11 physically was the presentation of the results 12 of some of these studies presented? A. They were both of those depending on 13 14 which meeting it was. Q. Did you physically present or were you 15 on the stage when the information was being 16 17 presented? 18 A. No. Well, not at 2009 or 2010. I was 19 at the SOT in 2011. 20 Q. Who was doing the presenting for the Bernstein studies -- Bernstein was doing the 21 22 presenting? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And for the Exponent studies that were 25 presented, was that Brorby or Sheehan? irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 Page 237 1 A. Brorby did at least one or two. I'd 2 have to look at my CV and go through each one of 3 them, and most recently Pat Sheehan. Q. Did Bernstein say that his research was 4 5 funded by a grant at these meetings when he was presenting? 6 7 A. He didn't talk about any funding at 8 those presentations. It was not generally part 9 of the protocol. Q. Do you have his PowerPoint 10 presentations? 11 12 A. I may. I'm not sure. 13 MR. KRISTAL: Okay. I would 14 request that as well. 15 BY MR. KRISTAL: Q. Now, if you turn to page 127 -- or if 16 17 you look at 123, actually -- I'm sorry. I don't 18 mean to have you jump around. It appears that he flew -- Bernstein flew from Geneva to Atlanta 19 first and then flew to Baltimore, right? 20 21 A. Okay. 22 Q. And he stayed overnight again at the 23 Ritz Carlton, if you look at page 127, correct? 24 A. Well -Q. He stayed there for two nights, right? 25 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 Page 238 1 A. I see the invoice. I don't see the - 2 oh, there is. Yeah, the 10th through the 12th. Q. Was he meeting with you during that 3 period while he was in Atlanta? 4 5 A. He could have been. I don't recall 6 that time frame. 7 Q. He must have been meeting with somebody at Georgia-Pacific, right - 8 9 A. Sure. Q. -- otherwise it's kind of a circuitous 10 route to get to Baltimore via Atlanta from 11 12 Geneva. A. 13 I'm just - 14 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 15 form. A. That's a 16 possibility. I just -- I don't know 17 18 who he was speaking with at that 19 point. 20 BY MR. KRISTAL: Q. Okay. Did you generally have meetings 21 22 with him prior to his presentation of the 23 results of some of the studies at these 24 meetings? 25 A. Like face-to-face meetings is what irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 you're referring to? Page 239 2 Q. Any kind, face-to-face, on the phone. 3 A. Yeah. We talked about it on the phone 4 generally. I don't recall any face-to-face 5 meetings prior to these meetings. 6 Q. Was there any disclosure by him at 7 these meetings that he was a testifying expert for Georgia-Pacific? 8 A. No. 9 MR. KRISTAL: Why don't we go off 10 11 the video record. 12 THE VIDEO OPERATOR: The time is 3:05 p.m. Going off the video 13 14 record. 15 (Whereupon, a break was taken.) 16 THE VIDEO OPERATOR: We are back on the record with videotape No. 4. 17 18 The time is 3:13 p.m. 19 BY MR. KRISTAL: 20 Q. Mr. Holm, if you turn to page 151 21 handwritten, NYCAL 3383, it's an October 2009 22 invoice from Bernstein. Do you see that? 23 A. Yes, I do. 24 Q. And he references in the invoice and on the next page there's an expense sheet for a 25 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 meeting in Lyon, France? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And it was with you and two other people, correct? 4 5 A. Yes. Q. And one of the persons listed is a G. 6 7 Swaen, S-w-a-e-n? A. It wasn't a meeting with those two 8 9 people. It was a meeting with me but we went to 10 dinner with them. 11 Q. Oh, okay. And G. Swaen is a Deutsche 12 epidemiologist, right? 13 A. That's correct. Q. What was he doing at a dinner with you 14 and Bernstein in Lyon, France? 15 A. He was - 16 17 MR. SCHNEIDER: Now, Mr. Holm, let me instruct you that if either of 18 19 these gentlemen were being interviewed by you as potential 20 consulting experts that your 21 22 communications with them would be protected by a consulting expert 23 24 privilege and I instruct you not to 25 answer. But if there's some other Page 240 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 Page 241 1 connection to them, you are free to 2 respond. 3 A. Yeah. It was 4 another situation. The International Agency for Research on Cancer was 5 having a meeting there and we were in 6 7 attendance at that meeting, Swaen and 8 Collins and myself. 9 BY MR. KRISTAL: 10 Q. Okay. What was Bernstein doing? A. He came over to, since I was in Europe, 11 12 to meetwith me and discuss some things in terms 13 of the research, so he came from... Q. Geneva to Lyon - 14 15 A. Geneva to Lyon. 16 Q. -- because he knew you were in Lyon. 17 A. Yeah. It's not very far. 18 Q. Was the asbestos research discussed at 19 this dinner? 20 A. No, not at the dinner. Q. How was the wine? It looks like you 21 22 had two bottles of nice wine there on the next 23 page. 24 A. I don't remember at this point. I'm 25 sure it was good. irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 Page 242 1 Q. And, again, if you look at page - 2 handwritten page 160, it's a wire transfer 3 request form where Bernstein's bills are referred to as a part of the asbestos expenses, 4 5 correct? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And these sheets are peppered throughout here, are they not? I don't want to 8 9 have to turn to every single one. 10 A. I imagine they are. That's how he gets 11 paid is wire transfer so... 12 Q. Right. And the wire transfer is part of what's considered asbestos expense for the 13 14 defense of asbestos litigation, correct? 15 A. Yes, it is. 16 Q. Turn to page 166. Bernstein was 17 billing for and paid for his presentation of study results at the Society of Toxicology 18 19 meeting in March of 2010 in Salt Lake City, 20 correct? 21 A. That's right. 22 Q. Why did Bernstein present the results? GP spent a lot of money flying the guy over from 23 24 Geneva, Switzerland, to Salt Lake City, Utah. Why didn't you just present the results? 25 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 Page 243 1 A. I could have but he's the principal 2 investigator of the study and we wanted -- it 3 was early on in terms of when we were presenting 4 that information and wanted to have him 5 available. Especially if there's any questions that I couldn't answer, we would want to have 6 7 David answer them. Q. Now, the bill on page 171, handwritten 8 9 171, NYCAL 3314, for May 2010 for work for the 10 period of May 2010, the cover letter includes 11 trial work. Is there trial work involvement? MR. SCHNEIDER: Again, Mr. Holm, 12 I instruct you that to the extent you 13 14 can relate it to actual trial 15 testimony, you can identify that 16 trial testimony. If it relates to 17 consulting for trial preparation, 18 then I instruct you not to provide 19 that information. 20 BY MR. KRISTAL: 21 Q. Well, and also if you turn to page 174, 22 handwritten, it mentions Thiebault, 23 T-h-i-e-b-a-u-l-t, trial work for that 24 particular case; is that right? 25 A. I believe so. irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 Q. What was that case? Where was it 2 venued? Do you know anything about it? 3 A. I know nothing about that case. Q. There's another meeting here, if you 4 turn to handwritten 181, NYCAL 3290, August 31, 5 6 2010. There's an invoice and there's also a 7 reference to a meeting with Victor Roggli in 8 Durham, North Carolina. Do you see that? 9 A. Yes, I do. 10 Q. August 8, 2010? 11 A. Yes. Q. Was that meeting done pursuant to 12 Bernstein's work on this asbestos litigation 13 defense project? 14 15 A. Yes, it was. Q. Who requested him to meet with Victor 16 17 Roggli? 18 A. I actually wanted to meet with Dr. 19 Roggli about our studies. 20 Q. Okay. And Dr. Roggli is a defense expert in asbestos litigation? 21 22 A. He does both defense and plaintiff 23 work. 24 Q. And why did you want to meet with Dr. 25 Roggli in North Carolina about asbestos Page 244 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 litigation? Page 245 2 MR. SCHNEIDER: Mr. Holm, to the 3 extent that you were consulting with 4 Dr. Roggli as a consulting expert for advice in connection with litigation 5 related matters, I instruct you not 6 7 to provide that information. 8 THE WITNESS: Okay. 9 BY MR. KRISTAL: Q. So I guess there is no answer then, 10 11 given that instruction. 12 A. That's correct. 13 Q. Okay. Who was at this meeting with Dr. 14 Roggli in North Carolina in August of 2010? 15 A. It was David, myself and 16 outside counsel. 17 Q. Okay. Outside counsel from what law 18 firm? A. 19 I don't remember the person's last name 20 even. I remember his first name. 21 Q. What's his first name or her first 22 name? 23 A. Bruce. 24 Q. Not Bruce Berger? 25 A. No. irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 Q. Bruce Bishop? Page 246 2 A. Yes. Thank you. Q. Bruce Bishop, does herepresent 3 4 Georgia-Pacific anywhere locally? 5 A. I don't know his overall activity with 6 our company. 7 Q. Okay. Well, was it your understanding 8 when you were at the meeting with Bernstein, 9 Roggli and Bruce Bishop that Bruce Bishop was 10 there in his capacity as a Georgia-Pacific 11 outside attorney? 12 A. Yes. Q. Have you had anyother meetings or been 13 14 in attendance at any other meetings when Bruce 15 Bishop was present? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. When -- strike that. How many such occasions have there been? 18 19 A. Four or five. 20 Q. Other than this one meeting with Roggli 21 and Bishop and Bernstein and yourself, tell me 22 when -- strike that. Was this August 2010 23 meeting the first time you met with Bruce 24 Bishop? A. No. I've met him a few times before 25 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 that. 2 Q. Okay. And who was present at those 3 meetings before, if you could go meeting by 4 meeting starting with the earliest you can recall? 5 A. I'm trying to think of how many times 6 7 I've met with him. It was Bernstein and myself 8 and Bruce and inside counsel. Q. At the prior meetings? 9 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And at this August 10th meeting am I 12 understanding you correctly that there was no inside counsel? It was just Bruce Bishop, 13 14 Bernstein, Roggli and yourself? 15 A. That's correct. Q. Have you ever attended any Defense 16 17 Research Institute conferences, DRI? 18 A. I don't remember if it was that group 19 specifically. It could have been. Q. And where is the -- where was the 20 21 conference that you're recalling? 22 A. In Las Vegas. 23 Q. And what year was that? 24 A. Two years ago. Q. And how did you -- were you invited to 25 Page 247 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 that meeting? Page 248 2 A. No. 3 Q. You saw a registration and you went? 4 A. Yes. Q. Were the results of any of the studies 5 6 of this Georgia-Pacific asbestos defense project 7 presented? 8 A. I don't think so. Not that I remember. Q. What was the purpose of you attending 9 10 the meeting? A. There were various scientists there 11 that were presenting results on asbestos and 12 wanted to gain further intelligence on the 13 14 subject. 15 Q. And was it your understanding it was a 16 group that was -- whose membership is comprised 17 of asbestos defense attorneys? A. I believe that the scientists there 18 19 represented both defense and plaintiff. Q. I'm talking about the group that was 20 21 sponsoring this - 22 A. I don't know. 23 Q. -- conference. 24 A. I don't really know anything about the 25 group that was sponsoring it. irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 Q. Well, there are lots of asbestos 2 conferences given every year. How many have you 3 been to? A. 4 One. 5 Q. I'd ask you what occurred but I'm afraid there will be an instruction that what 6 7 happens in Vegas stays in Vegas so I won't ask 8 you. 9 MR. SCHNEIDER: Stipulated. 10 BY MR. KRISTAL: There's another meeting -- if you look 11 Q. 191 of Exhibit 9, Bernstein's invoice, 12 on page 13 is that the business expense list for September 14 2010? A. 15 191 is that -- 16 Q. Yes, sir. A. 17 Yeah. 18 Q. NYCAL 3500. 19 A. Right. 20 Q. Were you at this meeting? It says 21 meeting with GP and Julian Peto, P-e-t-o. 22 A. I was. 23 Q. In London, right? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And Julian Peto is another Page 249 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 epidemiologist, correct? Page 250 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And when he says meeting with GP, is he 4 referring -- strike that. Was anyone else from Georgia-Pacific there besides yourself at this 5 6 meeting? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Who was there? 9 A. John Childs. 10 Q. Anyone else? A. From GP? 11 12 Q. Well, we can start there. Anyone else 13 from GP? A. No. 14 15 Q. Okay. Other than Bernstein, Peto and yourself and Mr. Childs, who else was there? 16 17 A. Ken Donaldson. Q. Was the meeting pursuant to your - 18 19 well, strike that. I'm assuming the meeting was pursuant to your work on the asbestos defense 20 project because Bernstein billed Georgia-Pacific 21 22 for it. Right? A. Bernstein did bill Georgia-Pacific, 23 24 yes. Q. For this meeting, right? 25 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And it was pursuant to the asbestos 3 defense research project, right? 4 A. Broadly. 5 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 6 form. Go ahead. 7 A. Broadly, yes. 8 BY MR. KRISTAL: Q. And has Julian Peto done any work on 9 10 this project? On Georgia-Pacific's -- 11 A. 12 Q. Um-hum. -- project? No. 13 A. Q. Are you aware if he's done work for 14 15 anybody else -- 16 A. No. 17 Q. -- in asbestos litigation? 18 A. I'm not aware of him working for 19 anybody else, no. Q. Who set up the meeting with Peto? 20 21 A. Dr. Bernstein. 22 Q. Do you know why he did that? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Why? 25 MR. SCHNEIDER: To the extent Page 251 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 that your knowledge on that topic 2 relates to communications that you 3 had with a consulting expert, Dr. Bernstein, then I instruct you not to 4 provide that information since those 5 6 communications are protected. If you 7 can answer it in a way not providing 8 those communications, then you can 9 answer it. 10 THE WITNESS: I can't provide 11 them any other way. 12 BY MR. KRISTAL: Q. How long was this meeting? 13 14 A. Four or five hours. 15 Q. I take it it wasn't over dinner. 16 A. No. Q. I mean it was at somebody's office 17 somewhere? 18 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. At Peto's office in London? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Did he have any of his staff there? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Has Peto signed a contract with 25 Georgia-Pacific -- Page 252 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 A. No. 2 Q. -- to do any work? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Was Peto asked to do anything for 5 Georgia-Pacific? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Did Peto give input on some aspect of the project? 8 9 A. No, he did not. 10 MR. KRISTAL: I assume any questioning about what happened you 11 would lodge an objection to, is that 12 fair to say? Well, let me just ask 13 14 the question. 15 BY MR. KRISTAL: Q. What were you all talking about? 16 MR. SCHNEIDER: And to the extent 17 that discussions took place that were 18 not relating to your communications 19 with a consulting expert, you can 20 21 answer those questions. But if this 22 was a meeting to evaluate a potential consulting expert or attended by a 23 24 potential consulting expert and you were discussing things related to the 25 Page 253 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 litigation defense, you cannot 2 provide that information. 3 THE WITNESS: It doesn't fall 4 under those. 5 MR. SCHNEIDER: All right. Then 6 if it doesn't relate to consultations 7 with consulting experts and the 8 topic's related to something else, 9 you can describe what was discussed. 10 A. Okay. It was 11 Peto's evaluation of the mesothelioma 12 rates in the UK over the years. 13 BY MR. KRISTAL: Q. Why did you and Mr. Childs fly over to 14 London for that? 15 16 MR. SCHNEIDER: And, Mr. Holm, I'll instruct you that to the extent 17 18 you had discussions with counsel or communications with in-house counsel 19 for Georgia-Pacific relating to the 20 21 purposes for a meeting with a 22 particular person or talking to a 23 particular person, those 24 conversations are privileged and you 25 should not disclose the contents of Page 254 )rity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 them. Page 255 2 THE WITNESS: Okay. That's the 3 category it falls under. 4 MR. SCHNEIDER: All right. Then I would instruct you not to answer 5 6 further questions on this topic. 7 THE WITNESS: Okay. 8 BY MR. KRISTAL: 9 Q. Handwritten page 194, October 2010, 10 another Bernstein expense list for a meeting. It says meeting GP in Atlanta and he apparently 11 met with you at least for dinner, correct? 12 13 A. That's what it says. Q. Well, do you recall having dinner with 14 15 him? There's a bill -- Bluepointe Restaurant. 16 A. Yes. 17 MR. SCHNEIDER: What page is 18 that? 196 you're saying? 19 THE WITNESS: Yes. 20 BY MR. KRISTAL: 21 Q. You had a nice bottle of Barolo, right? 22 A. Um-hum. 23 Q. Why was Bernstein in Atlanta a month 24 after the meeting with Peto in September of 25 2010? irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 MR. SCHNEIDER: Mr. Holm, I would 2 instruct you that to the extent Mr. 3 -- or Dr. Bernstein was visiting on some particular topic relating to 4 your consultant/expert 5 relationship communications then you 6 7 shouldn't disclose the topic of your 8 discussions. You can say whether he was there to meet with you but you 9 can't disclose the content of your 10 11 communications. 12 THE WITNESS: Okay. 13 MR. SCHNEIDER: So you can answer 14 whether he was there to meet with 15 you. 16 THE WITNESS: Well, it wasn't 17 just with me. BY MR. KRISTAL: 18 19 Q. Right. Well, let me back up. I 20 understand the instruction. I understand the content of what was said you believe falls under 21 22 the instruction. Is that fair to say? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Okay. You had dinner with Mr. -- or 25 with Bernstein, correct? Page 256 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 A. Correct. Page 257 2 Q. There was a meeting prior to dinner? 3 A. It was either prior to or the day 4 after. Q. Okay. 5 A. I don't recall the -- 6 7 Q. Who was present at that meeting? 8 A. There were several lawyers there. 9 Q. Okay. Can you tell me were they both inside and outside asbestos lawyers? 10 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Okay. And who were the inside lawyers? 13 MR. SCHNEIDER: You can identify - 14 15 THE WITNESS: Okay. MR. SCHNEIDER: -- the lawyers 16 17 present. 18 THE WITNESS: It was if I can remember -- it was -- what time frame 19 20 21 BY MR. KRISTAL: 22 Q. This is October -- this is just, you 23 know, seven, eight months ago maybe. 24 A. Yeah. Mary McLemore was there. John 25 Childs may or may not have been there. I'm not irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 positive so... 2 Q. Who were the outside lawyers? 3 A. Bruce was probably there. Q. You're referring to Bruce Bishop as 4 opposed to Bruce Berger at - 5 6 A. Yeah. 7 Q. -- Spriggs & Hollingsworth? A. Bruce Berger I haven't seen in a long, 8 9 long time. And then Kiki Carros. 10 Q. Were there any other individuals other than yourself, the Georgia-Pacific inside and 11 12 outside lawyers and Bernstein? A. No. 13 Q. Is it correct -- I know I was asking 14 earlier but for all of these meetings somebody 15 16 would be taking notes as to what was being 17 discussed? A. I think it would be highly unlikely 18 19 that any notes would be taken. 20 Q. And why is that? 21 MR. SCHNEIDER: Mr. Holm, I would 22 instruct you that to the extent you 23 are going to describe a meeting 24 between counsel and consulting experts and yourself, you're not to 25 Page 258 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 Page 259 1 describe the contents of the meeting, 2 what took place at the meeting or 3 anything about the way in which the defense conducts a defense. 4 5 THE WITNESS: Okay. Does that include why no notes were taken? 6 7 MR. SCHNEIDER: You're not to 8 discuss anything about the content of 9 the meeting. 10 BY MR. KRISTAL: 11 Q. Right. Unless you just -- why were no notes taken? 12 13 A. There was a -- no need for any notes, as 14 far as I'm concerned. 15 Q. Why do you feel there was no need for any notes? 16 17 A. Well, I didn't have any notes anyway. 18 I mean maybe the attorneys had notes. I don't 19 recall if they did or not. 20 Q. made? 21 Was there any kind of presentation 22 A. Yes. Q. PowerPoint? 23 24 A. Yes. Q. By Bernstein? 25 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 A. Correct. 2 Q. Different than the presentations at 3 the, for example, Society of Toxicology meeting? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Was it PowerPoints to be used as part 6 of trial testimony? 7 MR. SCHNEIDER: Mr. Holm, I would 8 direct you and instruct you not to answer questions concerning the 9 10 content of the meeting and what was 11 discussed at the meeting and the specifics of the meeting, and I think 12 that question crosses that line and I 13 14 instruct you not to answer. 15 THE WITNESS: Okay. 16 BY MR. KRISTAL: 17 Q. Well, you know that Bernstein has used PowerPoint presentations when he's testified at 18 19 trial, correct? 20 A. Yes, he has. 21 Q. Okay. And those PowerPoint 22 presentations were not viewed by the Georgia-Pacific lawyers for the first time as 23 24 he's on the witness stand, is that fair to say? 25 A. That fair to say. Page 260 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 Q. Did you folks have input into the Page 261 2 PowerPoint presentation? 3 MR. SCHNEIDER: I'm going to instruct you not to answer that 4 5 question. 6 THE WITNESS: Okay. 7 BY MR. KRISTAL: 8 Q. Turn to page 202, the handwritten - there's a trial prep meeting reference that 9 10 Bernstein was billing for in December of 2010. 11 Do you see that? 12 A. I do. 13 Q. Were you at that meeting? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And who else was at that meeting? 16 A. I think I was at that meeting. 17 Q. A couple of weeks before Christmas last 18 year? 19 A. Yes. And who else was at that meeting. Kiki Carros was there and Wade Marrionneaux and 20 21 Mary McLemore. 22 Q. Okay. And why was the meeting in 23 Washington, DC? 24 A. I think because it was convenient for 25 me because I was in Washington, DC, for other irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 meetings. 2 Q. And did Bernstein present the 3 PowerPoint presentation again? 4 A. Yes. Q. Was it the same or different than the 5 PowerPoint presentation he had made I guess it 6 7 was three months earlier at the meeting in 8 London -- I'm sorry -- that's the Peto meeting. 9 I apologize. Two months earlier in October at 10 the meeting in Atlanta. 11 A. I believe it was quite similar. I 12 can't recall any difference. 13 MR. KRISTAL: Okay. For now I'm done with Exhibit 9. I'd like to 14 mark as Exhibit 10 the 2008 15 16 Bernstein-Holm article. 17 THE WITNESS: That's 10. 18 MR. KRISTAL: Thank you. (Exhibit 11 was marked for 19 20 identification.) 21 BY MR. KRISTAL: 22 Q. Marking as Exhibit 11 a published article by Bernstein, Donaldson, Holm and others 23 24 entitled "A Biopersistence Study Following 25 Exposure to Chrysotile Asbestos Alone or in Page 262 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 Combination with Fine Particles." Do you see 2 that? Do you see where it says in the lower left-hand corner, quote, "This research was 3 4 sponsored by a grant from Georgia-Pacific, LLC," end quote? Do you see that? 5 6 A. Yes, I do. 7 Q. Do you have any present intention to write the editors of the journal Inhalation 8 Toxicology and tell them that that's not 9 10 correct? 11 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 12 form. A. That's not been 13 14 planned. 15 BY MR. KRISTAL: Q. Well, you don't disagree that that's 16 17 not correct, right? 18 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 19 form. A. I'd like it to be 20 21 written differently than that. And I 22 don't know -- in terms of the author disclosure forms, I don't recall what 23 24 those said. 25 BY MR. KRISTAL: Page 263 )rity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 Q. Okay. Well, this was Inhalation 2 Toxicology, right - 3 A. That's correct. Q. -- the journal? 4 MR. KRISTAL: I digress for a 5 moment given what you just said. I'm 6 7 going to mark as Exhibit 12 some information about disclosure from the 8 9 Inhalation Toxicology Web site. I'm sorry I don't have an extra copy but 10 11 let me hand that to you first. (Exhibit 12 was marked for 12 13 identification.) 14 MR. SCHNEIDER: Actually you do 15 have an extra copy. 16 MR. KRISTAL: Okay. I thought it 17 felt a little thick when I handed it 18 to you. 19 MR. SCHNEIDER: What number is that? 20 21 MR. KRISTAL: That is 12, I 22 believe. 23 BY MR. KRISTAL: 24 Q. Now, Inhalation Toxicology is the journal to which all three of the Bernstein and 25 Page 264 )rity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 Holm articles that were generated from this Page 265 2 project were published, correct? 3 A. That's correct. 4 Q. Do you happen to have a copy of the one that came out today? 5 6 A. I don't personally, no. 7 Q. Okay. I'll get it before the next time 8 we meet 9 A. Okay. 10 Q. And this is the Inhalation Toxicology home page, do you see that, the first page of 11 Exhibit 12 12? 13 A. I do. 14 Q. Don Gardner, the editor, is in Savannah, 15 Georgia Do you know him? 16 A. I have never met him personally, no. 17 Q. Okay. Up top there are links where it says home, all issues, current issue, do you see 18 19 that across the top under the journal name Inhalation Toxicology? 20 21 A. I do. 22 Q. And there's a link for instructions for authors, do you see that? 23 24 A. Yes, I do now. 25 Q. Okay. Have you -- before the articles irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 were submitted to the journal Inhalation Page 266 2 Toxicology did you look at the instructions for authors? 3 4 A. No, I didn't. Q. Was Bernstein in charge of doing that? 5 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And so he charged you for that as well, right? 8 9 A. I would think so. Q. I mean it's part of his time, right? 10 11 A. Correct. 12 Q. Okay. And if you turn three pages in, 13 it says Inhalation Toxicology up top, 14 instructions for authors. Do you see that? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And there's a subsection, manuscript 17 preparation and there's a section of that in terms -- called acknowledgements and declaration 18 19 of interest statements. Do you see that? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And what we read in the section, this 22 research was sponsored by a grant from Georgia-Pacific, LLC, is a declaration of 23 24 interest statement, is it not? 25 A. I suppose it is. irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 Q. And if you look under editorial Page 267 2 policies, there's another subsection, 3 declaration of interest. Do you see that? 4 A. There's two declarations. Oh, there it 5 is. Okay. Yes. Q. Now, if you turn to the next page under 6 7 manuscript submission, do you see that section? 8 A. Yes. Q. The second paragraph says, quote, "All 9 submissions to the journal must include full 10 11 disclosure of all relationships that could be viewed as presenting a potential conflict of 12 13 interest. If there are no conflicts of 14 interest, authors should state there are none. This must be stated at the point of submission 15 within the manuscript after the main text under 16 a subheading declaration of interest and where 17 available within the appropriate field on the 18 19 journal's ScholarOne manuscript site," end 20 quote. Do you see that? 21 A. I do. 22 Q. And the Journal ScholarOne Manuscript 23 Site is where you submit an article online. Did 24 you understand that to be correct? 25 A. I did understand that, yes. irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 Page 268 1 Q. So Inhalation Toxicology is requiring 2 full disclosure of all relationships that could 3 be viewed as presenting a potential conflict of interest, correct? 4 5 A. Yes. Q. We [sic] don't think that the 6 7 statement this research was sponsored by a grant from Georgia-Pacific is a full disclosure of all 8 9 relationships that could be viewed as presenting a potential conflict of interest, do you? 10 11 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the form. 12 13 A. I don't. 14 BY MR. KRISTAL: 15 Q. And under that paragraph it says please see our full declaration of policy -- strike 16 that -- a full declaration of interest policy 17 for further information, do you see that? 18 19 A. I do. Q. And if you turn to the next page, under 20 acknowledgments and declaration of interest 21 22 section, do you see that? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. It says, quote, "Declarations of interest, however, refer to statements of 25 )rity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 financial support and/or statements of potential 2 conflict of interest." Do you see that? 3 A. Not yet. Q. It's the second paragraph under the 4 section - 5 6 A. Oh, second paragraph. Under the one 7 that starts declarations of interest? Is that 8 right? Q. It says acknowledgements and 9 declaration of interest - 10 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. -- section. So that's what the journal's telling authors, correct? 13 14 A. That's correct. 15 Q. And then it also says at the end of 16 that paragraph see declaration of interest section below, right? 17 18 A. Yes. Q. And if you turn to the next page, 19 20 again, it states that all declarations of interest must be outlined, right? 21 22 MR. SCHNEIDER: Where are you 23 referring to? 24 MR. KRISTAL: At the top of the 25 page under declaration of interest Page 269 )rity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 Page 270 1 section. It's the next page after 2 the one we were just looking at. 3 MR. SCHNEIDER: Oh, okay. Thank 4 you. 5 A. Right. Yes. 6 BY MR. KRISTAL: 7 Q. And all declarations of interest were not outlined in the one sentence, this research 8 was sponsored by a grant from Georgia-Pacific, 9 right? 10 11 A. No. 12 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the form. 13 14 A. Not in that one 15 sentence. That's one of the reasons why we decided to include myself as 16 17 an author. 18 BY MR. KRISTAL: Q. So one of the reasons it was decided to 19 include yourself as an author was for what 20 reason? 21 22 A. To explicitly state that 23 Georgia-Pacific was involved in the study. 24 Q. Well, you certainly didn't disclose that you were not in your regular employment 25 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 while working on this project. 2 A. I agree. Q. If you turn to the next page -- two 3 4 pages -- actually, it's three pages. There's a section that begins at the very bottom called 5 6 declaration of interest. 7 A. Yes. Q. And in that section the next page 8 starts, quote, "It is the policy of all Informa 9 Pharmaceutical Science, to adhere in principal 10 to the conflict of interest policy recommended 11 12 by the ICMJE." Do you see that? 13 A. Um-hum. Q. And Informa - 14 15 A. Yes. Q. -- Pharmaceutical Science is the 16 company that owns Inhalation Toxicology as well 17 18 as other journals, right? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Okay. So the main company in the context of instructions to authors in the 21 22 Inhalation Toxicology Journal is informing 23 potential authors that it is their policy to 24 adhere in principle to the conflict of interest 25 policy of the ICMJE, right? Page 271 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 A. I agree. 2 Q. And ICMJE is the International 3 Committee of Medical Journal Editors, right? 4 A. Okay. I didn't know that until today. 5 MR. KRISTAL: Okay. Let me just 6 mark as Exhibit 13 the ICMJE policy. 7 (Exhibit 13 was marked for 8 identification.) 9 BY MR. KRISTAL: 10 Q. Can you confirm me for me that ICMJE 11 stands for International Committee of Medical 12 Journal Editors? 13 A. Yes, it does. 14 Q. And Exhibit 13 is their disclosure requirements, correct? Conflict of interest 15 16 disclosure requirements. 17 A. I believe so. I'm not sure where it 18 says that. There it is. Okay. Yes. 19 Q. Let's focus on Exhibit 13, the 20 International Committee of Medical Journal 21 Editors policy since we've just read that 22 Inhalation Toxicology authors that are 23 submitting manuscripts are supposed to adhere in 24 principle to their policy. Okay. 25 A. Um-hum. Page 272 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 Q. It starts out, quote, "Public trust in 2 the peer-review process and the credibility of 3 published articles depends in part on how well conflict of interest is handled during writing, 4 peer review and editorial decision making," end 5 6 quote. Do you agree with that? 7 A. Yes, I do agree with that. Q. The next paragraph continues, quote, 8 9 "All participants in the peer-review and publication process must disclose all 10 11 relationships that could be viewed as potential 12 conflicts of interest. Disclosure of such relationships is also important in connection 13 14 with editorials and review articles because it can be more difficult to detect bias in these 15 16 types of publication -- publications than in 17 reports of original research," end quote. 18 Do you agree that the policy here is that there must be disclosure of all 19 20 relationships that could be viewed as potential 21 conflicts of interest? 22 A. That's what it says here, yes. Q. And the next paragraph says, quote, 23 24 "When authors submit a manuscript, whether an 25 article or a letter, they are responsible for Page 273 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 disclosing all financial and personal Page 274 2 relationships that might bias their work." 3 That's part of the policy as well, correct? 4 A. Yes. Q. On the next page, fifth paragraph that 5 begins increasingly, do you see that? 6 7 A. Yes. Q. Quote, "Increasingly individual studies 8 receive funding from commercial firms, private 9 10 foundations and government. The conditions of 11 this funding have the potential to bias and 12 otherwise discredit the research," end quote. Do you agree with that? 13 14 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 15 form. 16 A. I -- conditions of this funding. 17 Okay. Yes. 18 BY MR. KRISTAL: Q. Well, that's certainly the policy - 19 20 A. Right. Q. -- statement, correct? 21 22 A. That's -- that's what it mean. Yes. Q. And the next paragraph says, quote, 23 24 "Scientists have an ethical obligation to submit 25 creditable research results for publication. irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 Researchers should not enter into agreements 2 that interfere with their access to all of the data and their ability to analyze them 3 independently and to prepare and publish 4 5 manuscripts. Authors should describe the role 6 of the study sponsor if any in study design, 7 collection, analysis and interpretation of data, 8 writing the report and the decision to submit 9 the report for publication," end quote. Do you see that? 10 11 A. I do. Q. And that was not done for any of the 12 Bernstein publications that emanated from this 13 project, right? 14 15 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 16 form. 17 A. Yeah. Other than me being 18 an author of the study, yes. BY MR. KRISTAL: 19 Q. Well, you being listed as an author of 20 the study doesn't tell anyone that this was 21 22 litigation-driven research, right? 23 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 24 form. A. Other than by itself, that's 25 Page 275 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 true. Page 276 2 BY MR. KRISTAL: 3 Q. If you go back to Exhibit 12, the 4 actual Inhalation Toxicology policy, picking up from where we left off, Inhalation Toxicology is 5 informing potential authors, quote, "All authors 6 7 must disclose any financial and personal relationships with other people or organizations 8 that could inappropriately influence (bias) 9 10 their work. It is the sole responsibility of authors to disclose any affiliation with any 11 organization with a financial interest direct or 12 indirect in the subject matter or materials 13 discussed in the manuscript such as 14 consultancies, employment, paid expert 15 testimony, honoraria, speakers bureaus, 16 17 retainers, stock options or ownerships, patents or patent applications or travel grants that may 18 affect the conduct or reporting of the work 19 20 submitted," end quote. Do you see that? 21 A. I do. 22 Q. And that was part of the policy of this journal, right? 23 24 A. That is the policy. 25 Q. And the last paragraph in this section irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 reads, quote, "The intent of this policy is not 2 to prevent authors with any particular relationships or interest from publishing their 3 work but rather to adopt transparency such that 4 reviewers, editors, the publisher and most 5 importantly readers can make objective judgments 6 7 concerning the work product," end quote. That was Inhalation Toxicology's policy, correct? 8 9 A. Yes, that's correct. Q. And in fact your contract for your 10 special employment as Georgia-Pacific litigation 11 consultant with Mr. Childs required you to 12 disclose any conflict of interest, right? 13 14 A. Yes. Q. Do you intend to write or communicate 15 with Inhalation Toxicology to inform them that 16 the statement this research was sponsored by a 17 grant from Georgia-Pacific is not correct? 18 19 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the form. 20 21 A. That hasn't been currently 22 discussed, no. 23 BY MR. KRISTAL: 24 Q. So you have no current plan to do that 25 although that might change. Page 277 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 A. That's a possibility. Page 278 2 Q. Now, the other article that came out in 3 2008 was the Brorby -- the Exponent folks' article with you also as coauthor, correct? 4 5 A. That's correct. 6 Q. I'm going to mark as Exhibit 14 Brorby 7 and Sheehan, Berman, and Greene and Holm. The title of the article is Recreation of Historical 8 9 Chrysotile-Containitng Joint Compounds. Do you see that? 10 11 A. Thank you. 12 Q. You're welcome. (Exhibit 14 was marked for 13 14 identification.) 15 BY MR. KRISTAL: 16 Q. And this too was published in the same journal, Inhalation Toxicology, correct? 17 18 A. Yes, it was. 19 Q. And the only disclosure made here was quote -- in lower left-hand corner -- "This 20 21 research was primarily funded by 22 Georgia-Pacific, LLC, who has been in litigation 23 related to joint compound," end quote. Do you 24 see that, Mr. Holm? 25 A. Yes. I -- irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 Q. You need to slow me down - 2 A. Okay. I'm sorry. Q. -- because I didn't realize you were 3 4 looking at something. Take your time to find what you want in your book - 5 6 A. Okay. 7 Q. -- however you want to do it. 8 A. Yes. I thought it was at the end but 9 it's up here. Okay. 10 Q. Okay. And who else funded the study? 11 A. No one else did. Well, Exponent had 12 some contribution I'm told. 13 Q. Well, what does that -- Exponent - that Georgia-Pacific who was paying to do the 14 15 study and write the manuscript also paid for the 16 study? 17 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 18 form. 19 BY MR. KRISTAL: 20 Q. I guess I don't understand what you're 21 -- strike that. This says the research was 22 primarily funded by Georgia-Pacific, right? 23 A. Yes, it does. 24 Q. That would indicate it wasn't exclusively funded by Georgia-Pacific, correct? 25 Page 279 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 Page 280 1 A. That's -- that's how I would read into 2 it, yes. 3 Q. Okay. Well, who else other than 4 Georgia-Pacific funded this? 5 A. Yeah. I asked Greg Brorby about that statement and he said that during the writing of 6 7 this manuscript we didn't pay for all the hours that they actually worked on it so they put in 8 9 primarily funded. Q. So Exponent worked some hours that they 10 11 didn't charge anybody for and therefore they said that Georgia-Pacific was not the exclusive 12 13 funder of the research. 14 A. That's what they said. 15 Q. Okay. Is there any disclosure that the 16 preparation of the manuscript was funded by 17 Georgia-Pacific? 18 MR. SCHNEIDER: Object to the 19 form. 20 A. Not in those words, 21 no. 22 BY MR. KRISTAL: 23 Q. Well, it doesn't say anything about 24 that, right? It says this research. 25 MR. SCHNEIDER: Objection to the irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 form. Page 281 2 A. That is correct. 3 BY MR. KRISTAL: 4 Q. I'd like to review the article with you in some detail if we can. 5 6 A. Sure. 7 Q. In the abstract you all wrote, quote, "Little is known about actual human exposures to 8 chrysotile fibers that may have resulted from 9 10 the use of chrysotile-containing joint compounds because few exposure and no health effect 11 studies have been conducted specifically with 12 13 these products," end quote. Do you see that? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Are you aware of a Mt. Sinai study that 16 was conducted in the 1970's regarding health effects of asbestos-containing joint compounds? 17 A. I probably am. You would have to show 18 19 me the paper. Q. Well, when you and the authors are - 20 there have been no health effect studies, did 21 22 you do any study whatsoever on asbestos joint 23 compound or were you specific to 24 Georgia-Pacific's asbestos joint compound? A. There's -- that would be joint compound 25 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 in particular, not Georgia-Pacific's Page 282 2 exclusively. 3 Q. So do you know if that's a correct statement that there was no health effect 4 studies on asbestos joint compound? 5 6 A. I would say that's a correct statement. 7 Q. It continues, quote, "Because limited amounts of historical joint compounds are 8 available and the stability or 9 10 representativeness of aged products is suspect, it is currently impossible to conduct meaningful 11 studies to better understand the nature and 12 13 magnitude of potential exposures to chrysotile that may have been associated with historical 14 15 use of these products," end quote. Do you see that? 16 17 A. Yes. Q. On what basis were you saying there 18 were only limited amounts of historical joint 19 compounds available? 20 A. Well, from -- we've looked for historic 21 22 joint compound and the only that were available 23 is a small amount. 24 Q. Okay. And who is we that looked for historical joint compound? 25 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 A. Counsel and also Exponent. 2 Q. Right. One of the tasks Exponent was originally given at the beginning of the project 3 4 was to try to round up some old Georiga-Pacific 5 asbestos joint compound, correct? 6 A. That's correct. 7 Q. And they were paid $70,000 to do that, 8 right? A. I don't know what that specific task 9 10 cost. 11 Q. Okay. We'll look at the - 12 A. It's possible. 13 Q. -- invoices at some point. I 14 appreciate you might not know that exact number. 15 A. Right. Q. What did counsel and/or Exponent 16 17 actually find? 18 A. We had some what was allegedly called 19 some Bestwall material that we had that was 20 historic in nature. 21 Q. Okay. Anything else? 22 A. Anything else what? Q. My understanding is at the very 23 24 beginning of this project counsel and Exponent 25 were tasked with trying to find old Page 283 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 asbestos-containing joint compound. 2 A. Okay. 3 Q. And you've told us now that there was 4 something represented to be Bestwall asbestos joint compound, right? 5 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. That was located. 8 A. Right. Q. And I'm asking you was there anything 9 else located? 10 11 A. Yes. There was some dried Ready Mix 12 that also was obtained. Q. Anything else? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Now, when you said it was represented 15 16 that this particular product was a Bestwall asbestos joint cement, who was making the 17 representations? 18 A. Well, we had obtained it through 19 litigation from Longo, a plaintiff expert, and 20 there's no chain of custody or anything 21 22 available so what's represented is this can of 23 Bestwall so we believe that it's historic joint 24 compound. 25 Q. And it was a can of wet Bestwall? Page 284 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 A. No. It was dry. 2 Q. Okay. And what size can was that? A. I've seen pictures of the can. I've 3 4 never held it in my hand. I'm not confident I 5 know. Q. Do you know if it was a one gallon, a 6 7 five gallon... 8 A. I don't. 9 Q. Well, when you say a can, you're not talking like a Campbell's Soup can, right? 10 A. No. It was -- if I'd have to estimate 11 12 it would be, you know, something like this. (Indicating) 13 Q. Bigger than a gallon paint can. 14 15 A. Probably. Like I said, I've only seen a picture of it with no real reference to it so 16 17 it's hard for me to ascertain that. Q. And when you say dried Ready Mix - 18 19 A. I didn't say that. Q. You didn't? 20 21 A. No. 22 Q. What else other than the Bestwall product was found? 23 24 A. Oh. Dried, past tense, Ready Mix. 25 Q. That's what I just said. Page 285 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 Page 286 1 A. You said dry and I was referring that 2 to dry mix. 3 Q. Oh, I see what you're saying. 4 A. Yeah. 5 Q. Got it. So this was a bucket of Ready Mix that when you opened was dry as opposed to 6 7 being wet? 8 A. That's correct. It had been dried out. Q. Did asbestos joint compound have a 9 shelf life of any kind? I mean after six months 10 you should throw it away and get another bucket? 11 A. I've never seen any of that kind of 12 specification, no. 13 Q. What is the basis for saying that this 14 -- quote, "The stability or representativeness 15 of aged products is suspect," end quote? 16 17 A. In the dry mix there was a casein protein material that we thought could have 18 19 degraded over time. Q. So in the dried Ready Mix can somebody 20 took a sample and found a component -- a casein 21 22 protein component of the Ready Mix that they thought had degraded over time? 23 24 A. No. Q. No. Can you tell again then because I 25 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 didn't understand. Page 287 2 A. Oh, it was in the formula sheet and our 3 wallboard -- or our chemists basically were concerned that the casein product degraded over 4 5 that amount of time. 6 Q. Okay. So let me see if I'm 7 understanding. The statement that the stability or representativeness of aged products is 8 suspect, does that apply to both dry asbestos 9 joint compound and Ready Mix, wet asbestos joint 10 11 compound? 12 A. Well, there are two different features. 13 We were concerned about the casein product and dry mix and we didn't have that much to start 14 15 with. But the Ready Mix material that was dried, the -- if we would grind that up or do 16 something with it and then reapply the water, 17 18 the chemical reaction doesn't work in the reverse way so it would be like putting flour 19 20 and water together and putting it on the wall. It wouldn't have the same properties as the 21 22 original. Q. And did you do testing to verify that? 23 24 A. We -- 25 Q. In other words, did somebody grind it irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 up, put water back in and then take a look at Page 288 2 it? 3 A. We didn't on the Ready Mix, no. 4 Q. Did you do that on the Bestwall? 5 A. We -- yes. We did apply Bestwall to 6 wallboard and sand it. 7 Q. And are those results published 8 anywhere? A. The -- there's -- some of those results 9 10 -- this isn't in the sanded product. This is in the -- just the dried product but those sanded 11 12 results are not published at this point in time. 13 Q. Okay. So the sanded results of the 14 historical asbestos-containing Bestwall product 15 that was located had not been published. 16 A. That's correct. Q. And what gave someone cause to think 17 18 that the casein was degraded or would be 19 degraded? 20 A. It's like a milk-related product. It's 21 a natural protein and that was their concern. 22 Q. Well, when the analysis was done on the 23 Bestwall, was there any identification of a 24 degradation of that component? 25 A. We never did that test. irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 Page 289 1 Q. But you could do that test, right? 2 A. I don't know what that test would be. 3 MR. KRISTAL: Okay. Why don't we 4 go off the video record for a minute. THE VIDEO OPERATOR: The time is 5 4:05 p.m. Going off the video 6 7 record. 8 (Whereupon, a break was taken.) THE VIDEO OPERATOR: Back on the 9 10 record. The time is 4:15 p.m. 11 MR. SCHNEIDER: All right. We 12 are together here in the deposition 13 of NYCAL litigation of Stewart Holm. 14 Mr. Kristal has announced that he has 15 completed this portion of his examination for the day but he 16 intends to continue his examination 17 on subjects related to the topics in 18 the deposition notice and -- at a 19 20 subsequent time. 21 We told Mr. Kristal that June 7th 22 and 8th have been blocked out and are 23 available but Mr. Kristal didn't 24 understand that and doesn't have that 25 time available. We are going to irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 Page 290 1 select another date and report back. 2 I would like the opportunity at this time to ask a series of redirect 3 questions to Mr. Holm on a series of 4 topics that have been covered here 5 6 today. Plaintiffs object to that 7 procedure saying that they're in the middle of their examination and it's 8 9 not appropriate for defense to be able to do redirect examination at 10 11 this point. We think that if the deposition 12 is going to be considered continuing 13 that there should be no use made of 14 the deposition, that it shouldn't be 15 16 cited until the defense has the opportunity to ask redirect questions 17 18 and actually complete the transcript. The parties are in disagreement about 19 that topic and we are reserving our 20 redirect examination until such time 21 22 as Mr. Kristal's examination concludes totally, and at that point 23 24 we will conduct a redirect 25 examination and only at that point irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 Page 291 1 will this deposition be complete in 2 our judgment so for the purposes of 3 being able to cite to it, use it in 4 the NYCAL litigation. So with that objection and 5 reserving our redirect questions, we 6 7 will proceed to the next session when it's scheduled pursuant to 8 9 discussions among counsel. 10 MR. KRISTAL: And when I had said -- when we were discussing this 11 12 off the record is that I had no 13 present intent to use the transcript 14 but if we do use the transcript, Georgia-Pacific can certainly 15 16 respond, A, as it just did in 17 whatever format they want. They can 18 get affidavits presenting what they 19 would be considering redirect or 20 there are ways to handle it. But there's no procedure in New York in 21 22 the middle of an attorney's examination of a witness for the 23 24 other side to ask questions. It 25 would be like we have multiple days irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 Page 292 1 of plaintiffs' depositions and it's 2 like at the end of the first day the plaintiff's lawyer saying I want to 3 get to ask my redirect or some 4 redirect questions before the next 5 6 session. It's just not something 7 that's sanctioned in the rules so we 8 don't need to argue about it. I think it's a moot point in any event 9 10 and we can take it from there. 11 MR. SCHNEIDER: All right. Our 12 position is stated. THE VIDEO OPERATOR: The time is 13 4:18 p.m. Going off the video 14 15 record. (Deposition concluded at 4:18 p.m.) 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 E RRATA S HE E T 2 3 Pursuant to Rule 30 (e) of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure and/or the Official Code of Georgia Annotated 9-11-30 (e) any changes in 4 form or substance which you desire to make to your deposition testimony shall be entered upon 5 the deposition with a statement of the reasons 6 given for making them. 7 To assist you in making any such corrections, please use the form below. If supplemental or additional pages are necessary, please furnish 8 same and attach them to this errata sheet. 9 10 I, the undersigned, STEWART E. HOLM, do hereby certify that I have read the foregoing 11 deposition and that to the best of my knowledge said deposition is true and accurate (with the 12 exception of the following corrections listed 13 below). 14 15 16 PageLineshould read: 17 Reason for change:__________________________ 18 PageLineshould read: 19 Reason for change:__________________________ 20 PageLineshould read: 21 Reason for change:__________________________ 22 PageLineshould read: 23 Reason for change:__________________________ 24 PageLineshould read: 25 Reason for change:__________________________ Page 293 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 PageLineshould read: 2 Reason for change:__________________________ 3 PageLineshould read: 4 Reason for change:__________________________ 5 PageLineshould read: 6 Reason for change:__________________________ 7 PageLineshould read: 8 Reason for change:__________________________ 9 PageLineshould read: 10 Reason for change:__________________________ 11 12 13 14 15 Signature 16 Sworn to and Subscribed before me 17 , Notary Public. 18 Thisday of, 2011. My Commission Expires: 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 Page 294 718-983-1234 1 CE RT I F I CATE 2 G E O R G I A: 3 D E KA L B C O UN T Y 4 5 I hereby certify that the foregoing 6 deposition was reported, as stated in the caption, and the questions and answers thereto 7 were reduced to the written page under my 8 direction; that the foregoing pages 1 through 9 10 292 represent a true and correct transcript of 11 the evidence given. I further certify that I am not in any way financially interested in the 12 13 result of said case. Pursuant to Rules and Regulations of 14 the Board of Court Reporting of the Judicial 15 Council of Georgia, I make the following 16 17 disclosure: 18 I am a Georgia Certified Court 19 Reporter. I am here as an independent 20 contractor for Huseby, Inc. 21 I was contacted by the offices of 22 Huseby, Inc., to provide court reporting 23 services for this deposition. I will not be taking this deposition under any contract that 24 25 is prohibited by O.C.G.A. 15-15-7 (a) or (b). Page 295 irity-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 1 I have no written contract to provide 2 reporting services with any party to the case, any counsel in the case, or any reporter or 3 reporting agency from whom a referral might have 4 5 been made to cover this deposition. I will charge my usual and customary rates to all 6 7 parties in the case. 8 This, the 10th Day of June, 2011. 9 10 11 12 JENNIFER L. AMMERMAN, RPR, CSR 2656 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 296 Priority-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. 25B Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 Page 297 A abide 70:18 143:5 ability 101:10 166:4 275:3 able 57:11 123:7 133:24 134:20,22 290:10 291:3 absent 174:6 212:12 absolutely 61:23 abstract 110:16 110:18111:17 112:7,9 281:7 abstracts 111:18 academic 205:5 205:7,11,25 acceptable 129:22 130:1 accepted 27:24 28:1 30:9 33:15 34:17 35:9 108:8 109:18 110:4 146:1 access 49:4 275:2 accommodate 128:12 account 184:6 195:17 199:9 226:20 accounting 184:4 195:8 217:18 226:16 accurate 293:12 acknowledge... 222:8 acknowledge... 266:18 269:9 acknowledges 143:1 acknowledgm... 150:9 acknowledgm... 268:21 acq 8:13 9:9 acqtreated 8:12 9:1 23:9 acting 21:20 222:17 activities 26:9 33:9 60:14 64:12 71:17 71:19 73:16 73:18 76:21 139:16 activity 59:22 72:24 79:21 102:16 197:21 246:5 actual 50:1 109:15 113:16 113:21 154:3 169:22 183:7 197:7 211:2 213:15 233:22 243:14 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225:18 252:24 277:10 295:24 296:1 contractor 295:20 contracts 100:18 177:18 200:19 211:18 contrary 171:14 contrast 197:23 contributed 6:18 contribution 279:12 convenient 147:18 261:24 convention 189:10 conversation 91:20 conversations 254:24 coo 54:21 55:1,8 69:10 75:21 cooperate 144:10,23 copied 146:21 232:9 copies 18:11 48:5,21 203:4 copy 56:15 82:24 83:2 86:2,8 100:16 109:8 113:11 145:15,24 148:21 162:11 232:6 264:10 264:15 265:4 corner 15:10 189:23 263:3 278:20 corporate 18:14 corporation 20:17 21:2 159:10 correct 8:17 9:1 13:13,17,19 15:11 21:25 24:11,12,15 26:15,24,25 28:14 30:13 30:23 33:12 35:1,22 38:2 38:21 39:11 41:13,14,16 43:16 44:1 Priority-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. 25B Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 Page 304 45:5,6 46:7 49:23 59:7 67:16 70:23 77:14,16 80:23 83:21 88:23 91:12 94:17 97:21 99:5 100:7,10 105:6 106:11 106:15 107:3 110:13,14 112:4 113:15 113:25 114:2 114:9 116:11 116:18 117:22 118:10 119:5 123:17 130:22 132:18 133:11 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D daily 18:18 dallas 193:21 194:5 daniel 158:20 daskal 2:15 5:24 data 9:17 24:23 33:20 36:3,13 36:19 37:4,5 38:4,8 39:18 39:20112:24 112:24 114:6 116:17 132:14 132:15 134:15 137:6 141:4,5 141:7,20,25 142:24 155:17 173:14 232:17 232:18 275:3 275:7 date 5:3 25:3 53:4 110:10 147:2 148:4,6 193:22 199:2 290:1 dated 129:2 158:18 162:7 185:18 195:4 215:9 dates 127:17,23 128:8,9 david 76:13 85:20 108:13 109:5 118:5 146:21 148:10 157:10 158:19 165:6,6 196:3 204:17 243:7 245:15 day 26:21 53:5 127:4,4,21 148:7 171:8 257:3 289:16 292:2 294:18 296:8 days 291:25 dc 63:19 64:4 235:22 261:23 261:25 deal 44:8 121:24 dear 20:25 186:1 Priority-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. 25B Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 Page 305 deardorff 78:11 80:19 81:6 105:17 146:22 147:15 debating 66:17 december 195:4 261:10 decided 66:20 174:12,25 183:12 270:16 270:19 decision 161:5 206:11 210:23 273:5 275:8 decisionmaking 102:12,13,20 decisions 95:19 declaration 266:18,23 267:3,17 268:16,17,21 269:10,16,25 271:6 declarations 267:4 268:24 269:7,20 270:7 deemed 173:17 deems 44:8 131:20 deep 198:2 defend 104:20 defendant 1:5 2:10 6:2 10:20 151:4 defendants 86:13 99:4 138:20 149:18 158:5 defending 104:5 228:12 defense 15:20 17:20 19:20 22:14 55:24 60:15 68:10 79:22 84:1 98:24 99:19 102:9 103:20 138:16 149:1 150:5 161:12 170:14 181:24 182:15 242:14 244:14,20,22 247:16 248:6 248:17,19 250:20 251:3 254:1 259:4,4 290:9,16 define 8:20 9:11 37:3 85:9 defined 27:7 139:20 definition 157:14 degradation 288:24 degraded 286:19,23 287:4 288:18 288:19 delivered 140:23 dennis 85:17 86:2,11 91:8 91:10,11,21 103:8,10,11 103:13,18,21 104:2,25 denver 93:3,4,7 94:16 98:25 department 55:14 195:9 195:13 207:13 226:14 depending 120:22 206:24 236:13 depends 114:17 273:3 depo 207:17,19 deposed 7:12,14 7:21,23 207:20 deposition 1:11 5:5 10:16 16:20 23:20 84:12 88:9 99:24 126:2,3 126:10 127:4 127:18 128:7 168:24 169:4 169:11 176:9 176:15 191:24 192:1,23 193:5,16 194:10 205:22 207:23 208:4 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122:21 122:25 230:2 drawer 48:22 dri 247:17 dried 284:11 285:18,24 286:8,20 287:16 288:11 drive 2:6 19:6 48:12 driven 205:10 223:12 dry 285:1 286:1 286:2,6,17 287:9,14 drywall 26:9 33:10 dschneider 2:14 duly 6:5 dump 11:25 duration 171:9 171:10,13 172:11,14,24 172:25 durham 244:8 dusseldorf 215:20 dust 26:8 33:9 duties 13:3,5,10 14:2 22:3,4 47:20 48:3,13 51:4 E earlier 43:24 74:6,11 82:5 89:4 165:10 212:4 214:10 258:15 262:7 262:9 earliest 146:18 247:4 early 108:15 243:3 earned 106:13 easier 200:10 east 2:6 easy 7:19 edinburgh 77:10 editor 220:17 228:12 229:10 265:14 editorial 267:1 273:5 editorials 273:14 editors 220:9 221:5 263:8 272:3,12,21 277:5 effect 107:8 179:15 281:11 281:21 282:4 effects 179:17 281:17 eight 7:21 48:6 65:23 257:23 either 51:2 55:2 55:15 65:14 99:21,23 113:19 119:18 128:11 133:14 137:10 176:15 200:18 206:4 240:18 257:3 electronic 48:5 48:7,9 email 3:19 18:23 145:4,5 145:22 146:10 146:12,19,21 147:2 148:20 195:2 202:24 203:25 204:4 204:10 206:17 217:15 225:24 226:14 emailed 90:10 146:3 emails 145:16 146:7 164:9 emanated 275:13 embedded 198:9 emery 2:15,16 2:18 5:23,23 5:24 13:23 56:4 emission 132:20 134:20 135:14 135:16 emissions 134:17 emphasis 197:20 211:5 employed 8:18 8:2021:2,10 49:20 70:21 76:16 221:14 223:4 employee 12:22 14:1,2 22:5 46:25 47:7,20 48:3 49:19 50:7,25 51:20 51:25 52:3 147:6 employees 99:23 175:13 employer 49:19 employment 13:5,9 16:4 50:5,21 51:3 74:17 270:25 276:15 277:11 enable 167:21 enclosing 159:22 ended 138:7 ends 70:7 enforceable 70:13 engage 14:1 engaged 52:6 engagement 44:5 45:15 46:20 131:16 139:17 engages 131:19 engels 37:24 enter 275:1 entered 293:5 entering 172:9 entire 90:25 entities 62:24 entitled 16:12 23:21 39:7 44:7 49:8 107:25 117:15 176:17 262:24 envelope 52:20 environ 26:14 26:20122:18 123:3 124:23 125:2,4,10 128:19 129:6 130:11,11,15 130:15,20,23 138:9 141:5,7 175:9 199:18 environmental 12:2 83:13,16 84:19 111:24 228:24 230:23 231:23 232:8 epidemiologist 240:12 250:1 epidemiology 111:24 equivalent 187:16 errata 293:8 error 186:5 especially 34:6 112:11 243:5 esq 2:5,11,16,19 essence 130:24 155:5 176:7 179:3 183:11 192:15 essentially 112:14 established 174:20 212:14 estimate 285:11 et 37:24 46:13 67:25 ethical 274:24 ethics 168:13 eulc 115:3 167:13 europe 79:14 80:6 81:7 114:24 115:2 241:11 evaluate 253:22 evaluation 95:12 131:22 136:19,21,23 254:11 evaluations 103:5 event 121:2 144:6 292:9 eventually 76:8 202:14 everybody 113:14 evidence 295:11 exact 28:8 34:9 40:12 85:14 283:14 exactly 39:4 114:15 130:6 134:7 176:7 186:15 200:8 221:23 222:13 examination Priority-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. 25B Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 Page 308 3:3 6:8 134:25 289:16,17 290:8,10,21 290:22,25 291:23 examine 58:22 examined 6:6 example 78:11 188:3 260:3 exception 293:12 exchange 187:15 excitation 198:1 excluding 169:3 exclusive 7:9,10 175:1 280:12 exclusively 279:25 282:2 excuse 36:23 exhibit 4:1 14:11,17,23 16:8,19 18:8 20:15,19,20 20:23 24:19 31:18 36:22 36:25 39:24 70:7 81:25 82:5,6,9,21,24 128:23 129:1 140:18 142:22 145:9,12,20 158:13,16 162:2,5 163:7 175:17 176:3 176:6,8 184:10,11 185:6 224:18 225:2 233:16 249:12 262:14 262:15,19,22 264:7,12 265:12 272:6 272:7,14,19 276:3 278:6 278:13 exhibitl 3:9 exhibitlO 4:5 exhibitll 4:7 exhibit12 4:9 exhibit13 4:11 exhibit14 4:13 exhibit2 3:11 exhibit3 3:13 exhibit4 3:15 exhibit5 3:18 exhibit6 3:20 exhibit7 3:22 exhibit8 3:24 exhibit9 4:3 exhibits 3:7 exist94:5 221:2 existed 130:16 existing 168:12 expect 84:11 138:5 expected 133:25 expense 209:1 210:3 214:25 215:8 234:5 234:22 239:25 242:13 249:13 255:10 expensed 215:21 expenses 186:3 188:14,23 191:2,6 208:20 242:4 experience 97:19,23 138:16 160:1 expert 21:3 25:14 84:18 98:7,10,11 149:6,23 172:2 182:13 206:12 213:14 213:18 222:17 223:25 224:1 224:2,5 225:13 226:3 226:21,25 239:7 240:23 244:21 245:4 252:3 253:20 253:23,24 256:5 276:15 284:20 expertise 83:11 experts 80:1 98:10,19 102:15 142:13 240:21 254:7 258:25 expires 294:19 explain 145:22 explicitly 270:22 explore 9:18 60:15 exploring 11:5 exponent 9:5,8 28:13 34:23 35:3,8 38:15 38:20 76:16 76:18 80:24 81:4 91:11 92:2,10 94:12 94:22 95:4 96:9 97:19 98:2 100:5,13 100:20,23 101:6,9,16 102:4,8,24 104:19,24 105:1,6,7,8,15 105:21 106:1 110:8 119:19 132:13 134:16 136:2 137:9 137:14,19,21 138:6 141:19 199:11,23,25 201:16 202:2 236:7,24 278:3 279:11 279:13 280:10 283:1,2,16,24 exponents 35:4 98:23 exposed 183:15 218:23 exposure 6:16 7:10 21:5 26:8 33:9 59:12 87:4 108:4 131:23 132:2 134:5 151:5,6 262:25 281:11 exposures 135:9 210:14 211:2 281:8 282:13 expressed 44:11 45:16 47:1 101:23 142:9 extensive 138:15 158:4 extent 40:21 69:19,23 104:10 149:4 213:13 243:13 245:3 251:25 253:17 254:17 256:2 258:22 extra 264:10,15 eyes 52:20 F facetoface 121:24 122:1 148:9 164:2 238:25 239:2 239:4 facilitate 61:21 facilities 181:10 183:3 facility 159:20 fact46:4 79:22 116:12 147:22 162:17 186:24 205:9 211:8 212:1 277:10 factor 98:1 factors 26:8 33:8 fair 24:5,7,8 28:15 34:13 34:14 52:12 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focusing 207:22 folks 85:24 104:18 124:22 145:23 153:13 261:1 278:3 follow 43:8,12 44:12 61:1,3 61:17 168:11 168:18 189:24 followed 115:5 130:24 following 49:25 108:3 155:6 167:10 184:18 186:2 262:24 293:12 295:16 follows 6:6 43:2 followup 208:13 footnote 169:3 foregoing 293:11 295:5 295:9 forget 54:24 137:18 form 6:24 13:7 14:5 15:23 19:22 23:13 27:12 28:5 31:2 35:13 44:17 45:23 46:9 47:10 49:14 51:9,15 52:15 53:24 54:6 58:4,20 66:16 69:13 70:25 72:9 73:25 74:8,20 75:11 79:2 80:11 81:12 84:4 86:18 96:13 99:16 100:9 102:11 109:3 110:5 115:13,19 116:20 117:7 119:11 121:12 129:10,11,19 135:11 143:10 143:19 144:3 145:1 150:18 156:12,24 157:12 161:15 164:23 166:1 169:14,24 171:23 173:2 174:2,16 175:4 177:6 177:24 183:19 186:11 192:5 196:8 205:13 206:3,11 209:16 211:22 219:19 220:1 220:13 221:18 222:5,25 223:7,15 228:15 229:6 230:13 231:16 233:24 234:11 234:12 238:15 242:3 251:6 263:12,19 268:12 270:13 274:15 275:16 275:24 277:20 279:18 280:19 281:1 293:4,7 formal 225:17 format 291:17 forms 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fulton 18:18 function 21:12 funded 21:22 237:5 278:21 279:10,22,25 280:4,9,16 funder 280:13 funding 233:11 237:7 274:9 274:11,16 funds 232:15,22 furnish 293:8 further 46:11 46:23 138:12 206:18 248:13 255:6 268:18 295:11 future 169:12 G gain 248:13 galleys 110:3 gallon 285:6,7 285:14 gaps 9:17 gardner 265:14 gathered 112:24 general 57:11 67:24 76:1 88:10 120:17 121:14 203:14 generally 6:20 62:1,10 64:13 144:20 160:18 181:2 187:1 189:13 192:19 201:4 232:18 237:8 238:21 239:4 generate 58:8 96:24 113:23 114:6 generated 43:1 43:1845:1 46:5 99:9 107:15 112:15 112:22 114:13 132:13,15 134:1 141:25 142:24 265:1 geneva 147:14 147:22 148:18 150:3 163:9 163:10,13,21 169:18 177:22 185:18 218:17 237:19 238:12 241:14,15 242:24 gentlemen 240:19 george152:22 georgia 1:19 2:13 5:8 133:8 185:20 265:15 293:4 295:16 295:18 georgiapacific 1:4 6:2,17 7:25 8:6 9:8 12:17,23 13:4 13:13,14 14:2 15:11,15,19 16:13 17:7 20:16 21:2,10 21:21,22 22:5 22:10 26:23 29:13,21 30:3 30:24 31:9 35:5 41:12 Page 310 47:7 48:14 51:19 55:13 56:5 59:3 60:9 68:10 70:22 73:9 77:16 78:24 83:20 87:6 89:23 91:19 97:4,14 97:20 100:6 126:12 129:6 130:20 131:17 133:14 141:4 141:21 143:17 144:23 152:9 153:2 154:11 155:2,12 156:6,9 157:9 158:2 159:10 162:6,18 164:18 165:3 168:19 169:9 169:21 172:19 172:23 173:7 174:11,24 175:13 179:9 179:24 182:8 185:12,19 188:17 189:1 193:13 194:7 194:11 195:9 195:23 198:25 201:11 202:3 207:4,14 211:9,15,17 219:17 220:6 222:18,21 223:21 224:4 226:14 229:3 229:23 231:12 231:14 232:23 233:4 234:10 235:5 238:8 239:8 246:4 246:10 248:6 250:5,21,23 252:25 253:5 254:20 258:11 260:23 263:4 266:23 268:8 270:9,23 277:11,18 278:22 279:14 279:22,25 280:4,12,17 291:15 georgiapacifics 9:23 22:13 47:4 90:1 141:9,15 143:23 174:7 212:13 251:11 281:24 282:1 georigapacific 283:4 german 180:14 197:9 germany 180:15 181:8 getting 50:13 106:12,18 140:7 171:5 199:7 gift 192:15 give 18:2 28:18 36:18 61:16 61:23 87:21 100:2 127:8 156:10,15 157:10 192:14 214:23 253:7 given 50:15 99:23 120:9 136:24 147:6 157:6 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289:6 289:25 290:13 292:14 gonna 18:6,21 26:20 88:18 128:8 good 6:10 166:11 198:6 241:25 google 67:25 government 84:21 274:10 gp 20:5 21:2,19 23:25 44:6,7 44:12 45:16 46:25 47:2,20 48:3 50:5,7,21 50:25 51:3,25 52:3 121:19 125:9 149:17 175:20 177:15 189:20 200:5 200:16 223:4 225:13 230:24 231:6 242:23 249:21 250:3 250:11,13 255:11 gps 21:18 22:6 22:25 23:2,10 23:25 43:7,14 46:25 grad 105:17 grant 150:11,15 154:15 155:22 156:1,3,5,10 156:22 157:5 157:10,14 219:16,24 220:6 221:11 222:2,3,11,14 234:10 237:5 263:4 266:22 268:7 270:9 277:18 grants 157:6 276:18 greene 38:13 278:7 greg 34:20,22 94:24 103:9 136:6 137:16 280:5 grind 287:16,25 ground 129:22 grounds 159:2 group 38:15 56:23 63:2 88:4 91:25 96:7 99:21 102:6 110:8 110:25 111:2 112:12 114:15 118:6,7 138:9 181:7,8 196:21 197:16 226:16 232:14 247:18 248:16 248:20,25 groups 56:25 78:4 84:22 102:7 181:12 gsa 197:4,11 215:23 216:4 219:7 guess 13:8 17:25 22:10 28:2 60:18 157:14 193:2 205:10 216:23 245:10 262:6 279:20 guests 189:8 gunter 228:18 229:9 guy 242:23 guys 105:8 H hadnt 31:19 50:16 59:13 86:23 87:11 211:4 222:6 half 13:2 199:20 hand 16:9 83:2 145:8,9 158:24 264:11 285:4 handed 264:17 handing 14:21 handle 291:20 handled 273:4 handwriting 188:9 189:24 handwritten 189:25 195:2 202:6,22 204:10 208:17 208:25 209:21 210:2 213:6 216:23 218:8 218:14 224:24 225:1,6,21 227:9,24 232:3 233:17 234:14,19 239:21 242:2 243:8,22 244:5 255:9 261:8 handwrote 190:17 hanover 180:5 180:15 181:7 happen 265:4 happened 67:13 97:9 203:23 253:11 happening 175:2 happens 249:7 happy 18:11 216:20 hard 48:12,21 285:17 hardy 180:18 180:18 harvard 181:20 182:22 183:6 206:8 hasnt 30:9 33:16 35:9 277:21 havent100:17 100:20 109:23 119:23 135:24 176:11 200:16 258:8 head 106:4 200:24 health 59:11 83:13 181:20 182:23 183:7 206:9 228:24 230:23 231:23 232:8 281:11 281:16,21 282:4 hear 208:3 heard 6:11 19:18 85:4 86:22 91:6 155:25 164:19 178:1 hearing 91:8 160:6 hearings 84:21 heck 158:20 159:6,19 heitler 127:13 127:13 held 5:5 14:16 45:11 285:4 help 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288:23 identify 5:16 26:6 213:25 243:15 257:14 ill 16:9 18:11 88:10 104:12 137:17 158:23 172:1 177:13 207:16,17,18 207:22 254:17 265:7 im 7:20 8:21 9:25 12:9 14:21,25 16:11,17 17:1 20:20 27:1,17 31:20 33:5 35:14 40:12 40:16 41:17 41:1842:3,18 42:19 52:2 54:24 55:16 57:4 59:4,15 60:11,22 61:21,22 63:8 63:11 65:1 66:2 68:16 72:3 74:13 76:18 77:6 78:1,7 81:24 82:24 83:2,20 84:13 92:15 92:16 93:17 93:25 95:20 97:1 98:3 103:17,21 105:7 115:23 116:2,21 118:4,5 120:12 121:2 129:1 134:9 138:8 145:9 146:10 149:19 149:23 156:4 161:2 162:9 171:8 172:20 175:24 176:13 184:8 187:6 192:6 196:15 199:11,13 203:13,14,21 206:13 207:8 207:21 210:11 213:11 214:5 214:15 215:14 216:10,12 217:6 221:11 221:12 224:17 225:21 227:21 228:3 234:18 237:12,17 238:13 241:24 247:6 248:20 249:5 250:19 251:18 257:25 259:14 261:3 262:8,13 264:6,9 272:17 278:6 279:2,12 284:9 285:4 287:6 images 44:10 153:15,18 imagine 60:17 76:17 91:21 187:13 207:20 242:10 imaging 152:25 153:24 219:10 219:10 implications 59:12 important 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170:7 182:18 206:13 213:12 213:20 240:18 240:24 243:13 243:18 245:6 252:4 254:17 255:5 256:2 258:22 260:8 260:14 261:4 instructed 167:18 204:13 214:22 instructing 61:22,22 149:24 instruction 61:2 61:4,16 178:9 214:18 245:11 249:6 256:20 256:22 instructions 44:12 126:7 167:17 168:3 168:7,9,11,19 265:22 266:2 266:14 271:21 instructs 60:25 integrated 166:14 intelligence 248:13 intelligently 123:2 intend 116:9 277:15 intended 174:9 211:6 intends 289:17 intent 101:20 101:23 277:1 291:13 intention 263:7 interest 49:8,11 49:21 50:2,14 67:12 70:8 87:7 118:14 220:21,24 221:2,4 222:1 225:12 266:19 266:24 267:3 267:13,14,17 268:4,10,17 268:21,25 269:2,7,10,16 269:21,25 270:7 271:6 271:11,24 272:15 273:4 273:12,21 276:12 277:3 277:13 interested 295:12 interfacing 124:22,24 interfere 275:2 intermixed 126:25 internal 40:17 40:21 41:12 41:19,23 international 80:21 110:19 110:20 111:23 228:23 230:22 231:22 232:7 241:4 272:2 272:11,20 interpretation 275:7 interrupt 121:3 interrupted 205:13 interrupting 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261:9,13,15 261:16,19,22 262:7,8,10 meetings 24:17 53:13,17,20 54:7,9 56:2,10 69:3,9 75:15 81:14 85:25 93:19,22 110:21,24 121:23 122:2 137:22 140:2 164:5,7 178:16,19 235:8,24 236:4,6,8 237:5 238:21 238:24,25 239:5,5,7 246:13,14 247:3,9 258:15 262:1 membership 248:16 memo 158:16 188:15,15 memoranda 43:1 44:24 140:19 memorandum 43:10 mentioned 10:3 35:25 55:6 77:20 78:5 82:18 87:12 104:25 115:6 189:21 200:16 mentions 243:22 mercer 54:12 55:7,12 190:8 190:21 234:1 mercers 234:7 merged 204:21 mesothelial 7:5 mesothelioma 6:15 7:1,3 254:11 met 69:5 88:23 91:9 103:13 137:4 148:5,7 150:3 151:9 151:16,18 163:8,11,12 163:16 177:14 193:20 225:12 246:23,25 247:7 255:12 265:16 methodology Priority-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. 25B Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 Page 318 230:23 231:1 231:5,11,13 microscopy 153:3 197:4,8 197:18,19,22 197:24 198:10 219:7,10 middle 17:6,13 232:11 290:8 291:22 middleton 37:10,12 milkrelated 288:20 million 199:15 199:17,21 201:1,3,6 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107:7 107:14 179:20 183:22 217:11 234:17 264:19 283:14 numbered 224:24 numbers 145:18 162:22 184:14,19,19 201:8 224:25 numerous 105:18,23 nycal 83:1,1 131:5,7 145:18 162:22 175:19 184:13 185:17 188:15 190:2 191:19 193:4 195:1 202:7,22 208:18,25 209:21 210:3 215:9 217:9 224:25 225:7 225:21 227:11 232:4 234:21 239:21 243:9 244:5 249:18 289:13 291:4 nycal8 14:24 O oakland 34:8 oberdorster 228:11 229:9 229:25 231:21 obey 12:8 object 6:23 10:1 13:6 14:4 15:22 16:18 16:18 19:21 23:12 27:11 28:4 31:1 Priority-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. 25B Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 45:22 46:8 47:9 49:13 51:8,14 52:14 53:23 58:19 59:16 66:12 69:12 70:24 72:8 74:7,19 75:10 79:1 80:1081:11 84:3 86:17 88:6 95:8 96:12 99:15 100:8 102:10 104:6 109:2 115:12,18 116:19 117:6 119:10 121:11 129:9,19,21 135:10 143:9 143:18 144:2 144:25 149:2 150:17 156:11 156:23 157:12 159:1,7 161:14 164:22 165:25 169:13 169:23 171:22 173:1 174:1 174:15 175:3 177:5,23 183:18 186:10 192:4,17 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276:12 organizations 276:8 orient 204:2 oriented 80:15 original 29:8,13 97:14 116:16 176:22 273:17 287:22 originally 130:20 199:19 283:3 outcompeted 92:10 outfits 105:25 outlined 269:21 270:8 outlining 72:5 outside 11:2 12:3 13:20 34:8 56:4,8 68:13 71:11 76:7 78:24 89:25 193:21 196:25 207:4 207:8 245:16 245:17 246:11 257:10 258:2 258:12 overall 246:5 overnight 237:22 overstated 200:25 overview 83:9 owed 172:13 owned 141:4,5 141:7 151:1 ownerships 276:17 owns 143:14 271:17 P page 3:3,8 4:2 17:6,24 18:21 44:21 107:18 111:23,25 112:2 131:3 144:17 188:2 189:25 191:14 193:4 195:2 202:6,21 204:10 206:18 208:12,17,25 209:8,21 210:2 212:18 215:8 216:23 216:25 217:9 217:11 218:1 218:8,14,14 225:6,6,20 226:12 227:6 227:9,24 232:3 233:17 233:22,23 234:15,17,18 234:22 237:16 237:23 239:20 239:25 241:23 242:1,2,16 243:8,21 249:12 255:9 255:17 261:8 265:11,11 267:6 268:20 269:19,25 270:1 271:3,8 274:5 293:16 293:18,20,22 293:24 294:1 294:3,5,7,9 295:8 pages 73:25 74:15 145:21 202:25 203:25 208:24 225:20 266:12 271:4 271:4 293:8 295:9 pagination 189:24 paid 150:10 188:20,24 196:19 199:3 199:7,18,22 200:11,17 201:16,20,23 202:1,2 217:19 233:3 242:11,17 276:15 279:15 283:7 paint 285:14 paper 30:21 34:1,16 38:12 39:13 48:5 80:21 112:25 114:18 150:8 152:14,15 166:7 228:5,6 281:19 papers 44:4 152:20 174:3 222:22 paragraph 17:5 17:14 131:15 139:11 142:21 144:19 160:5 172:8 176:14 232:12 267:9 268:15 269:4 269:6,16 273:8,23 274:5,23 276:25 paralegal 195:12 parameters 9:20 214:22 part8:18 46:21 48:7 71:24 95:19 96:17 97:18 101:12 105:9 116:15 121:20 127:21 130:18 137:6 138:13 148:12 151:6 157:22 165:16 166:14 176:11 188:13 199:22 207:22 213:17 218:19 231:18,19 237:8 242:4 242:12 260:5 266:10 273:3 274:3 276:22 participants 273:9 participated 89:13 particle 8:10 11:22,24 23:16,19 particles 108:3 211:3 263:1 particular 48:17 98:7 104:3 106:1 148:6 154:19 198:11 207:3 207:5 243:24 254:22,23 256:4 277:2 282:1 284:16 particularly 184:21 particulate 132:14,15,21 134:17,18,21 135:7 parties 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planning 83:12 plants 16:12 played 68:9 please 22:19 145:21 180:6 186:2 204:15 226:20 268:15 293:7,8 pleased 159:19 pleura 108:2 pleural 7:4 plus 75:17 point 10:1 16:6 17:10 18:22 22:10 24:6,11 24:14 27:25 30:10 39:14 50:16 53:16 56:8 58:9 63:20 66:1 76:5,6 78:22 79:12 80:13 83:8 87:18,23 90:11 92:13 94:2 100:5 105:10111:5 129:16 135:22 135:24 136:17 138:23 148:13 160:10 166:17 174:6,11,24 174:24 177:2 177:9 178:2 179:2 183:23 187:20 190:7 190:24 191:20 193:16 201:14 211:9,14 212:24 213:10 235:4 238:19 241:24 267:15 283:13 288:12 290:11,23,25 292:9 pointing 215:4 poland 227:14 227:15,17,20 227:21 polands 227:19 policies 267:2 policy 107:16 268:16,17 271:9,11,23 271:25 272:6 272:21,24 273:18 274:3 274:19 276:4 276:22,24 277:1,8 polyethylene 32:12 portion 96:9 289:15 portuguese 154:17 posed 139:20 position 9:23 10:1842:12 42:21 94:6,7,8 292:12 positions 128:16 positive 210:12 258:1 possibility 54:12 238:17 278:1 possible 283:12 post 116:14 204:16 poster 236:9 posthoc 116:13 potential 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83:11 91:8 93:19 103:10 106:17 123:1 172:12 216:4 238:22 239:5 247:9 257:2,3 priority 5:2,18 private 143:13 143:14 274:9 privilege 41:4 57:8 60:20 61:11 64:11 64:20 66:17 66:22 72:20 72:21 79:24 79:25 102:18 102:18 127:25 140:13 142:15 145:6 170:5 182:18 213:18 215:10 240:24 privileged 15:25 43:3 60:1,19 73:17 120:7,23 126:5 127:24 254:24 privileges 98:9 proasbestos 232:14 probably 19:3 23:4 26:21 37:18 48:6 49:2 53:10 54:11,12 58:13 74:1 75:12 87:2 93:24 99:11 103:14 110:18 111:18 115:20 118:5 137:17 151:23 178:20 182:2,7 187:6 187:11 194:19 228:3 258:3 281:18 285:15 problem 155:16 165:16 procedure 290:7 291:21 293:3 procedures 116:25 proceed 5:20 126:23 127:1 127:10 159:16 291:7 proceedings 85:7,9 194:9 224:13 process 60:7 65:1 102:13 102:14,20 106:10 112:13 112:14,17,21 139:25 141:2 144:7,11 155:22 182:12 273:2,10 processes 95:10 95:11 produce 126:16 produced 44:4 100:18 120:22 141:25 177:1 product 8:9 9:12 11:15 39:25 41:4 42:24 57:9 58:22,25 59:6 64:20 66:11 72:21 73:16 79:24 87:11 95:20 102:17 120:7 133:1,3 142:14 143:7 144:8 170:6 182:16 277:7 284:16 285:23 287:4,13 288:10,11,14 288:20 production 109:10 120:10 products 8:19 9:14 86:14,23 281:13 282:10 282:15 286:16 287:8 professional 168:14 professor 180:17 program 217:18,21 prohibited 47:5 295:25 project 26:24 27:8 29:12 38:20 41:25 44:15 45:5,21 45:25 46:4,6 47:6 48:17 49:22 52:22 54:1 67:5,15 67:19 68:5 70:21 71:4,7 76:9 77:16 78:25 81:4 83:25 84:1 91:17 92:6 95:6 96:17 100:24 101:19 102:25 104:3 106:1,19 109:1 117:3 Priority-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. 25B Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 Page 323 129:8 130:13 131:24,24 132:3 133:23 133:23 137:6 138:13 148:11 148:13 149:1 149:23 152:9 163:14,17 164:7,11,13 164:20 170:23 173:8 199:14 202:15 204:12 205:6,23 216:5 225:14 229:23 230:4 230:5 233:5 244:14 248:6 250:21 251:3 251:10,13 253:8 265:2 271:1 275:14 283:3,24 projects 9:9,12 9:15 72:6 76:18 95:12 137:11 142:2 142:4 216:4 promptly 144:9 proof 109:21 proper 130:16 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publications 24:13 26:16 89:6 90:20 99:8 105:9 107:7,14 119:1 181:11 182:3 201:18 223:12 273:16 275:13 publish 28:6 101:21 141:19 173:24 174:3 174:8,12,25 212:12 275:4 published 8:25 21:23 27:25 30:10,22 33:16 34:17 35:10 39:13 73:2 77:12 108:13 109:15 110:9 112:8 119:22,24 124:4 126:17 146:2 152:8 161:17 174:10 228:7,25 229:14 262:22 265:2 273:3 278:16 288:7 288:12,15 publisher 277:5 publishing 101:17 277:3 pull 219:14 pulled 18:1 184:15 purpose 16:4 23:22 24:19 28:17 36:6,10 123:10 165:1 202:15 215:11 248:9 purposes 41:16 224:5 254:21 291:2 pursuant 31:13 31:15,20 35:4 36:20 38:5 39:20 48:13 62:25 71:20 127:14 139:16 152:9 163:13 170:23 171:19 186:18 188:21 193:15 194:6 196:16 244:12 250:18,20 251:2 291:8 293:3 295:14 pursued 60:14 put 10:11 60:20 83:8 89:7 91:2 120:21 127:8 174:20 183:14 184:16 189:1 189:23 190:13 198:6 203:19 212:1 235:6 280:8 288:1 putting 136:1 287:19,20 Q qualified 160:3 quantification 107:25 quarter 179:5 question 10:1 11:9 12:10,12 12:12 16:18 19:22,23 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recreating 86:23 87:11 97:10 recreation 30:17 38:25 39:7 96:11,18 120:21 137:25 278:8 redacted 215:10 redirect 290:3 290:10,17,21 290:24 291:6 291:19 292:4 292:5 reduced 295:8 refer 25:23 26:3 37:18 145:22 229:8 268:25 reference 82:7 90:24 185:23 244:7 261:9 285:16 referenced 30:17 31:17 36:21,24 43:24 references 39:12 91:1 239:24 referencing 63:8 referral 296:4 referred 82:5 242:4 referring 26:5,6 37:23 38:22 39:24 40:16 41:17 208:10 214:25 239:1 250:4 258:4 269:23 286:1 refers 209:8 reflect 53:9 reflects 213:13 reformulated 133:15 Priority-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. 25B Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 Page 325 regard 157:25 regarding 137:11 159:13 206:20 232:17 281:16 regardless 73:11 regards 204:17 registration 248:3 regular 12:22 13:3 14:2 22:5 47:19 48:3,13 49:1 51:4 191:21 270:25 regulations 168:13 295:14 regulators 84:21 regulatory 9:20 83:15 reign 136:24 189:5 rejected 108:21 relate 79:17 95:12 104:7 243:14 254:6 related 21:12 40:23 50:4,8 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representations 284:18 representativ... 282:10 286:15 287:8 represented 248:19 284:4 284:15,22 reproduce 44:10 46:13 reproduced 45:12 request 42:10 43:20,21,25 44:6 59:19 65:16 66:12 70:3 94:4 100:16 119:20 126:12 139:17 153:18 208:13 226:5 233:24 237:14 242:3 requested 43:7 43:14 66:8 159:24 167:19 186:4 208:20 244:16 requesting 120:13 requests 42:20 120:25 require 10:24 required 49:17 70:12 220:21 277:12 requirements 167:21 221:5 272:15,16 requires 15:23 19:23 220:25 requiring 144:7 268:1 reread 36:11 research 21:13 21:14,22 23:9 23:18 24:10 31:14,15,16 35:5 36:20 39:21 41:24 49:22 52:22 58:10 65:2 70:23 71:20 72:6 73:10,23 74:4 75:9 76:9 77:13 78:25 79:11 80:4,8,9 80:13 81:9 83:15,25 91:17 92:6 96:10 97:6 100:7,24 101:19 107:15 109:1 112:16 117:2 118:19 129:8 130:12 130:13 148:11 154:25 157:5 157:11 160:1 160:4,8 200:16 205:6 205:24,25 223:11 237:4 241:5,13,18 247:17 251:3 263:3 266:22 268:7 270:8 273:17 274:12 274:25 275:22 277:17 278:21 279:21 280:13 280:24 researched 181:16 researchers 183:10 275:1 reserving 290:20 291:6 respect 21:21 41:5 51:3 64:21 72:13 73:15 84:8 98:17 104:2 144:21 148:10 149:7 163:17 183:24 respond 127:9 144:24 241:2 291:16 responding 144:10 response 32:8 43:25 66:20 108:1 146:13 146:13 responses 153:5 166:5 179:12 responsibility 276:10 responsible 109:6 273:25 rest 145:24 restaurant 255:15 restrictions 143:5 result 25:19 27:22 295:13 resulted 27:23 30:5 34:16 213:15 281:9 results 44:24 71:25 72:13 73:10,11 101:17,21 141:14 143:25 173:24 174:8 174:9,19 175:1 178:21 179:4 206:4 Priority-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. 25B Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 210:20,24 211:25 235:5 235:8,13,20 235:25 236:4 236:11 238:23 242:18,22,25 248:5,12 274:25 288:7 288:9,12,13 resume 129:17 retained 56:5 78:24 223:20 retainers 276:17 reveal 19:23 57:5,10 59:17 69:22 72:23 95:10 142:16 revealing 57:12 140:12 reverse 287:19 review 75:5 121:20 141:17 166:4 184:3 228:4 273:5 273:14 281:4 reviewed 62:15 64:24 124:17 181:11 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sammander 2:205:2 sample 159:23 286:21 samples 111:14 198:11 sanctioned 292:7 sand 135:4,5 288:6 sanded 29:23 29:23 288:10 288:11,13 sanding 25:14 25:15 32:23 savannah 265:14 saw 109:11 125:2 129:16 137:7 175:8 248:3 saying 13:25 53:11 56:10 57:19 70:7 114:12 129:13 130:21 134:2 135:3,7 142:20 156:2 157:3 174:23 197:6 205:20 206:1 215:8 215:13,14,17 216:12 226:8 226:24 233:9 255:18 282:18 286:3,14 290:7 292:3 says 17:6,11,12 17:14,16,18 20:25 21:15 21:17 23:24 36:11 40:3 44:3,3,22 45:1046:12 49:24 51:23 Priority-One Court Reporting Services, Inc. 25B Vreeland Road, Suite 301, Florham Park, NJ 07932 718-983-1234 Page 327 109:20 131:16 135:21 136:18 139:15 142:22 167:17 168:9 171:9 172:22 173:13 176:14 188:3 191:4 191:16 209:22 212:21 214:6 214:11 221:10 227:13 249:20 250:3 255:11 255:13 263:2 265:18 266:13 267:9 268:15 268:24 269:9 269:15 272:18 273:22,23 274:23 279:21 280:24 scheduled 291:8 scheduling 128:12 schneider 2:11 3:5 5:25 6:1 6:23 9:25 10:23 13:6,23 14:4,22 15:22 16:10,17 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176:14 270:8 270:15 separate 22:4 47:1848:1,11 48:11,25 49:4 57:23 69:24 81:14 124:25 166:12,22 204:23 219:15 separated 204:12 september 212:18 214:11 249:13 255:24 sequentially 184:21 series 108:24 117:20 201:12 290:3,4 served 144:6 serves 84:17 service 144:11 services 21:3 131:20 142:25 186:4,17 188:4 191:16 203:4 208:20 295:23 296:2 serving 68:13 session 291:7 292:6 set 32:19 109:10 109:25 177:2 184:9 190:14 211:11 226:20 251:20 sets 176:22 setting 40:5,11 seven 65:23 73:25 74:15 146:2 201:1 257:23 shabby 189:4 shapes 49:1 share 41:22 42:2,6 69:7 82:15 shared 66:9 82:18 140:12 sharing 47:6 shebang 196:4 196:9 sheehan 28:12 29:4,8 33:1,15 33:17 34:1,16 34:20,22 35:10 38:13 94:24 100:15 110:7 137:16 236:25 237:3 278:7 sheet 199:9 239:25 287:2 293:8 sheets 242:7 shelf 286:10 shes 105:6,7,12 195:12 shorthand 118:24 shortly 172:1 shortterm 108:4 shouldnt 256:7 290:15 show 16:8 145:4 158:11,22 172:1 177:13 211:7 281:18 showing 17:24 shows 134:16 sic 40:9 180:15 268:6 side 137:15 291:24 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180:13 spent 242:23 split 208:14 spoke 79:7,8 85:18,21,24 87:16 88:22 91:21 spoken 52:8,25 53:2 76:6,11 sponsor 156:2,2 275:6 sponsored 154:15 263:4 266:22 268:7 270:9 277:17 sponsoring 248:21,25 spriggs 63:4,14 63:18 64:3 65:9,11 68:7 68:15 69:4 258:7 stability 282:9 286:15 287:7 staff 252:22 stage 236:16 stand 260:24 standalone 225:22 standing 129:10 129:20 stands 272:11 start 58:17 67:23 146:18 165:13 203:2 250:12 287:14 started 12:20 76:19 92:3 starting 247:4 starts 146:11 269:7 271:9 273:1 state 1:1 5:12 42:20 84:21 222:1 267:14 270:22 stated 134:8 165:1 211:16 220:17 267:15 292:12 295:6 statement 47:12 66:22 71:8 114:3,5 126:1 222:1 266:24 268:7 274:21 277:17 280:6 282:4,6 287:7 293:5 statements 44:25 266:19 268:25 269:1 stateoftheart 160:2 states 153:1 269:20 statistician 137:20 stay 179:14 189:5,8,13 stayed 189:10 217:3 218:16 237:22,25 staying 147:15 189:17 stays 249:7 step 113:22,23 150:22 stewardship 9:12,15 11:15 stewart 1:11 5:14 6:4 147:19 186:1 204:11 289:13 293:10 stick 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