Document KR9yaGov5n0VYBrma3Bgr8J1x

Trial Transcript [December 8,1993] Transwestern v. Monsanto CONDENSED TRANSCRIPT AND CONCORDANCE PREPARED BY: PREUSS, WALKER & SHANAGHER Attorneys at Law 595 Market Street, 16th Floor San Francisco, CA 94105 Phone: [415] 978-2600 FAX: [415] 978-2613 WATER PCB-SD0000075894 BSA Trial Transcript [December 8,1993] XMAX(1) Page 2055 (1) LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA; WEDNESDAY, DECEMBER Page 2057 (1) Q AND THE DATE? 8,1993 (2) A SEPTEMBER 9TH, 1969. (2) 9:30 A.M. (3) DEPARTMENT NO. 31 G. KEITH WISOT, JUDGE (4) ~0~- (3) Q AND SHORTLY AFTER THE FORMATION OF THE (4) TASKFORCE? (5) AYES. (5) (APPEARANCES AS HERETOFORE NOTED.) (6) (DAVID A. SALYER, OFFICIAL REPORTER.) (7) (8) THE COURT: AND GOOD MORNING, LADIES AND (6) Q OKAY. AND WERE MR. WHEELER AND (7) DR. RICHARD BOTH MEMBERS OF THIS TASK FORCE? (8) AYES. (9) GENTLEMEN. (10) RESUMING TRIAL PROCEEDINGS IN (9) Q DO YOU KNOW THE ORIGIN OR THE PURPOSE OF (10) THIS MEMO, SIR? (11) TRANSWESTERN VERSUS MONSANTO WITH ALL OF (11) A THIS IS DR. RICHARD'S CONTRIBUTION TO THE THE (12) WORK OF THAT TASK FORCE. (12) APPROPRIATE PARTICIPANTS IN THEIR RESPECTIVE (13) THESE ARE HIS THOUGHTS HE PUT IN WRITING PLACES. (13) MR. PREUSS, YOU MAY CONTINUE. (14) AND GAVE TO THE CHAIRMAN OR SENT TO THE CHAIRMAN OF (14) MR. PREUSS: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. (15) (15) THAT TASK FORCE. (16) Q 'THE CHAIRMAN" BEING MR. WHEELER? (16) WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE, (17) A CORRECT. (17) CALLED AS A WITNESS BY THE PLAINTIFF, TRANSWESTERN, (18) Q AND UNDER GENERAL POLICY, SIR, HE (19) INDICATES, THE SECOND SENTENCE, WHAT? (18) UNDER THE PROVISIONS OF EVIDENCE CODE 776, (20) A "COMPLY AND WORK WITH PUBLIC OFFICIALS TO HAVING (21) MEET OR EXCEED REQUIREMENTS AHEAD OF TIME." (19) BEEN PREVIOUSLY SWORN, TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS: (22) Q AND WITH RESPECT TO HALFWAY DOWN HERE, (20) (21) CROSS EXAMINATION (CONTINUED.) (22) BY PREUSS: (23) TALKING ABOUT ANALYTIC AROCLOR, WHAT IS THE REFERENCE (24) THERETO? (23) Q GOOD MORNING, MR. PAPAGEORGE. (24) A GOOD MORNING. (25) Q HOW ARE YOU TODAY? (26) A FINE, THANK YOU. (27) Q OKAY. YESTERDAY, MR. PAPAGEORGE, WE HAD (28) BEEN DISCUSSING SOME OF THE EARLIER SCIENTIFIC WORK (25) A WELL, IT REFERS TO ANALYSIS OF PCB'S IN (26) AIR, WATER AND ANIMALS. (27) Q AND THEN HE DISCUSSES IN THE NEXT SECTION (28) TOXICITY WORK; IS THAT RIGHT? Page 2058 (1) AYES. (2) Q AND WHAT IS HIS COMMENT WITH RESPECT TO Page 2056 (1) AND INVESTIGATION BY MONSANTO. (3) CONTACTING THE GOVERNMENTAL AGENCIES? (4) A WELL, HE STATES THERE, MONSANTO VISIT (2) WE WERE JUST GETTING INTO THE MANAGEMENT (3) ASPECT OF THE PCB ENVIRONMENTAL ISSUE IN (5) GOVERNMENT BIO-LABS. (6) Q AND FOR WHAT REASON, SIR? THAT EXHIBIT (4) 92. (5) COULD YOU GET THAT, PLEASE, SIR. (7) A WELL, FOR THE BIO-LABS IT'S TO COORDINATE (8) WITH THE GOVERNMENT LABORATORIES THEIR FINDINGS (6) AI HAVE IT. (7) Q AND YOU HAD INDICATED, I BELIEVE, THAT (8) THE ADDRESSEES OF THIS MEMORANDUM FROM (9) REGARDING ANY TESTING DONE ON ANIMALS AND FISH, (10) LIVING CREATURES. MR. JOHN WERE (9) TO BE THE MEMBERS OF THE TASK FORCE? (10) AYES. (11) Q AND THAT THAT TASK FORCE WAS LATER KNOWN (12) AS THE AD HOC COMMITTEE? (11) Q AND THEN HE MAKES SOME - GIVES HIS (12) THOUGHTS ABOUT WHAT THE LIKELY OUTCOME OF THIS ISSUE (13) IS. (14) THE LAST ONE THERE IS WHAT, SIR? (13) AYES. (14) Q AND PARAGRAPH 2 THERE INDICATES THE (15) RESPONSIBILITY OF THE TASK FORCE IS WHAT, SIR? (16) A IT'S TO OUTLINE A PROGRAM TO BE PURSUED (17) BY MONSANTO IN MANUFACTURING, MARKETING AND CUSTOMER (18) USEOFAROCLORS. (19) Q AND A DEADLINE WAS GIVEN WITH RESPECT TO (15) A 'THEREFORE, WE WILL HAVE TO RESTRICT USES (16) AND CLEAN UP AS MUCH AS WE CAN, STARTING (17) IMMEDIATELY." (18) Q AND TURNING TO THE NEXT PAGE, IF YOU (19) WOULD, SIR. (20) AI HAVE IT. (21) Q AND AT THE BOTTOM THERE HE INDICATES WHAT (22) ON THE LAST PARAGRAPH WITH RESPECT TO WHAT HIS (20) RECOMMENDATIONS; IS THAT CORRECT? (21) AYES. . (22) Q ALL RIGHT. IF YOU WOULD, SIR, PLEASE (23) UNDERSTANDING OF THE USES OF THE MONSANTO PRODUCTS (24) ARE? (23) TURN TO EXHIBIT 95. (24) AI HAVE IT. (25) Q AND YOU WERE SHOWN THAT EARLIER IN YOUR (25) A WELL, HE STATES THAT "WE ARE NOT (26) POSITIVE, BUT MOST USES ARE 'CLOSED' SYSTEMS OR (26) TESTIMONY, SIR, AND THIS IS A MEMO FROM A DR. (27) PRODUCTS USED IN SOLID PLASTICS OR ADHESIVES WHEELER (27) TO - EXCUSE ME, FROM DR. RICHARD TO MR. OR (28) SEALANTS." WHEELER? (28) A CORRECT. Transwestern v. Monsanto Page 2055 to Page 2058 WATER PCB-SD0000075895 BSA Trial Transcript [December 8,1993] XMAX(2) Page 2059 Page 2061 (1) Q THANK YOU, SIR. (1) THAT PARTICULAR COMPANY. (2) AGAIN, THESE ARE DR. RICHARD'S VIEWS HE (2) THERE ARE MANY EXAMPLES ALONG THAT LINE. (3) IS PASSING ON TO MR. WHEELER AS CHAIRMAN? (3) THE WHOLE IDEA BEING THAT WHEN THE (4) AYES. (4) CORPORATION'S NAME IS MENTIONED OR THOUGHT (5) Q IF YOU WOULD, PLEASE, TURN TO EXHIBIT OF, IT IS (6) 102, WHICH IS THE REPORT OF THE AROCLOR AD HOC (5) THOUGHT OF IN A GOOD LIGHT. THAT IS A GOOD BUNCH OF (7) COMMITTEE. (6) PEOPLE, SO TO SPEAK. (8) AI HAVE IT. (7) THAT IS WHAT WE MEANT BY "IMAGE." (9) Q AND IF YOU WOULD, SIR, TO WHOM WAS THIS (B) AND IN THIS CASE THE IDEA THERE WAS TO DO (10) REPORT DIRECTED? (9) THINGS IN A WAY THAT THAT IMAGE IS PROTECTED (11) A IT'S DIRECTED TO MR. BERGEN AND AND NOT (12) MR. SPRINGGATE WHO WERE THE TWO BUSINESS (10) DAMAGED IN ANY WAY. GROUP (11) Q THANK YOU. (13) DIRECTORS. (12) COULD YOU TURN, PLEASE, SIR, TO THE (14) Q ALL RIGHT. AND THIS WAS FROM THE (13) SECTION ON THE BASIS FOR RECOMMENDATIONS. (15) COMMITTEE AS A WHOLE? (14) THAT WOULD BE THE PAGE 024257. (16) A CORRECT. (17) Q AFTER ALL THE INPUT FROM THE MEMBERS WAS (15) A I HAVE IT. (16) Q ALL RIGHT. (18) OBTAINED AND CONSOLIDATED? (17) AND DO YOU RECALL BEING ASKED ABOUt THIS (19) AYES,YES. (18) PARTICULAR PARAGRAPH EARLIER, SIR? (20) Q AND THE DATE OF THAT? (19) AYES, I DO. (21) A OCTOBER 2,1969. (22) Q ALL RIGHT. AND WOULD YOU BE GOOD ENOUGH (23) TO TURN TO THE OBJECTIVES THERE, PLEASE. (20) Q WITH RESPECT TO THE PRODUCTS IN THIS (21) PARAGRAPH, ARE THESE PRODUCTS MANUFACTURED BY (24) AI HAVE IT. (22) MONSANTO, SIR? (25) Q FIRST OF ALL, WAS THIS A FINAL REPORT, (23) A NO. (26) SIR? (24) Q THESE ARE PRODUCTS MANUFACTURED BY (27) A NO. (25) CUSTOMERS, THEN; IS THAT CORRECT? (28) THIS IS A WORKING DOCUMENT, A PROPOSAL (26) A YES, CUSTOMERS OF MONSANTO. Page 2060 (27) Q AND WHAT TYPES OF PRODUCTS ARE THESE (1) FROM THE SMALL GROUP TO THE TWO TOP (28) CLASSIFIED BY MONSANTO? DIRECTORS (2) Q OKAY. NOW, YOU WERE ASKED ABOUT A COUPLE Page 2062 (1) A WELL, THESE PRODUCTS ARE - THEY BELONG (3) OF THESE. (2) TO WHAT WE CALL IN THE PLASTICIZERS GROUP. (4) I WOULD LIKE TO ASK IF YOU WOULD BE GOOD (3) Q AND THAT WOULD BE TRUE OF OIL AND/OR (5) ENOUGH TO READ NUMBER 3 AMONG THE OBJECTIVES IN THIS (4) GREASE LUBRICANT APPLICATIONS? (5) AYES. (6) DRAFT PROPOSAL TO MR. SPRINGGATE AND MR. (6) Q AND THE REFERENCE THERE IS TO PRODUCTS IN BERGEN. (7) THAT CATEGORY MANUFACTURED BY CUSTOMERS (7) A "PROTECT THE IMAGE OF THE ORGANIC BUT USING (8) DIVISION AND THE CORPORATION AS MEMBERS OF (8) COMPONENTS SUPPLIED BY MONSANTO? THE (9) BUSINESS COMMUNITY RECOGNIZING THEIR (9) AYES. (10) Q OKAY. RESPONSIBILITIES (10) TO PREVENT AND/OR CONTROL CONTAMINATION OF (11) A SOME OF THE COMPONENTS, NOT ALL. (12) Q SOME. THE GLOBAL (13) NOW, AFTER THIS REPORT WAS SUBMITTED TO (11) ECOSYSTEM." (12) Q WHAT IS YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT THIS (14) MR. SPRINGGATE AND MR. BERGEN AS GROUP HEADS OF THE (13) MEANT TO PROTECT THE IMAGE OF THE ORGANIC DIVISION, (15) FUNCTIONAL FLUIDS AND PLASTICIZER GROUP, WAS A (14) SIR, AND THE CORPORATION? (16) PRESENTATION MADE TO THE CMC AT A LATER (15) A WELL, THE WORD "IMAGE" THERE IMPLIES WHAT TIME? (16) DOES GENERAL SOCIETY THINK OF WHEN THEY HEAR (17) AYES. THE WORD (18) Q I WOULD LIKE TO SHOW YOU EXHIBIT 112, (17) "MONSANTO." (19) PLEASE. (18) AND BY "SOCIETY," I HAVE IN MIND, ALL OF (20) WOULD YOU GET THAT ONE, PLEASE? (19) US REALLY. (21) AND IS THIS THE TEXT OF THE PRESENTATION (20) AND THEN FURTHER THE CUSTOMERS, WHAT DO (22) BY THE AD HOC COMMITTEE TO THE CMC? (21) THEY THINK OR DO THEY LIKE WORKING WITH (23) A THIS IS A COPY OF THE TEXT USED BY THE MONSANTO AS (24) TWO BUSINESS DIRECTORS. (22) AN EXAMPLE. (25) Q BY 'THE TWO BUSINESS DIRECTORS." (23) PEOPLE, WOULD THEY LIKE TO WORK FOR (26) A THE OTHER SPEAKERS HAD THEIR OWN TEXTS. (24) MONSANTO? (27) Q I THINK YOU MENTIONED, WAS MR. WHEELER A (25) IS IT A COMPANY TO BE PROUD OF WORKING (28) SPEAKER AS WELL? (26) FOR? (27) THE GOVERNMENT REGULATORY PEOPLE, AS AN (28) EXAMPLE, FIND THAT THEY HAVE VERY FEW PROBLEMS WITH Page 2059 to Page 2062 Transwestern v. Monsanto WATER PCB-SD0000075896 BSA Trial Transcript [December 8,1993] XMAX(3) Page 2063 (1) AYES, HE WAS. . (2) Q AND WHAT WAS THE SUBJECT OF HIS (3) PRESENTATION? (4) A OH, HE WAS ASKED BY MR. BERGEN AND (5) MR. SPRINGGATE TO COVER THE MORE SCIENTIFIC TECHNICAL (6) DISCUSSION AS A KNOWLEDGEABLE PERSON RATHER THAN ASA (7) MEMBER OF THE TASK FORCE OR ANYTHING. (8) Q HE WAS - HE HAPPENED TO BE THE HEAD OF (9) THE TASK FORCE AND WAS FROM THE MEDICAL DEPARTMENT, (10) RIGHT? (11) A YES, THAT IS TRUE. (12) Q SO HE MADE A PRESENTATION ON THAT ASPECT (13) TO THE CMC? (14) A ON THE TECHNICAL ASPECTS, INCLUDING THE (15) MEDICAL. (16) Q AND EXHIBIT 112, THEN, IS A PRESENTATION (17) MADE BY MR. SPRINGGATE AND MR. BERGEN? (IB) A CORRECT. (19) Q OKAY. CAN YOU TURN TO PAGE 10, PLEASE. (20) IS IT YOUR UNDERSTANDING THAT SEVERAL (21) POSSIBLE COURSES OF ACTION WERE DISCUSSED BY (22) MR. BERGEN AND MR. SPRINGGATE AT THE MEETING OF THE (23) CMC? (24) AYES. (25) Q AND ARE THESE THE FOUR THAT WERE (26) DISCUSSED? (27) AYES. (28) Q CAN YOU JUST GO THROUGH THOSE FOR US AND Page 2064 (1) READ THEM OUT. (2) A NUMBER ONE IS, "DO NOTHING, JUST REACT TO (3) LEGISLATION AND EMOTION." (4) NUMBER TWO, "GO OUT OF TOTAL AROCLOR (5) BUSINESS." (6) NUMBER 3, "GET OUT OF AROCLOR 1254 AND (7) 1260 PRODUCTION." (8) NUMBER 4, "DEVELOP SPECIFIC ACTION PLANS (9) TAILORED' TO EACH BUSINESS GROUP AND EACH CUSTOMER (10) MARKET SITUATION TO CLEAN UP THE MESS." (11) Q ALL RIGHT. AND DID THE CMC ADOPT ONE OF (12) THESE COURSES OF ACTION? (13) A YES, THEY DID. (14) Q WHICH ONE? (15) A NUMBER 4. (16) Q ALL RIGHT. ALL RIGHT. CAN YOU EXPLAIN (17) IN MORE DETAIL WHAT IS MEANT BY "DEVELOPING SPECIFIC (18) ACTION PLANS TAILORED TO EACH BUSINESS GROUP AND EACH (19) CUSTOMER MARKET SITUATION," SIR? (20) A WELL, THE PLANS WERE BASED ON MONSANTO'S (21) KNOWLEDGE OF THE TYPE OF PCB INVOLVED, THE TYPE OF (22) USE, WHETHER IT WAS A CLOSED SYSTEM THAT IS (23) MANAGEABLE TO PREVENT SPILLAGE AND LOSS OR AN OPEN (24) SYSTEM WHERE CONTROL IS IMPOSSIBLE. (25) IT CONSIDERED THE RISKS INVOLVED IF YOU (26) REMOVE A FIRE-RESISTANT MATERIAL FROM Page 2065 (1) WHETHER IT WAS A SOPHISTICATED COMPANY OR A (2) BACK-ALLEY KIND OF OPERATION. (3) I THINK I HAVE COVERED MOST OF THE (4) CONSIDERATIONS. (5) Q OKAY. ALL RIGHT. (6) AND THEN I WOULD LIKE YOU TO TURN, IF YOU (7) WOULD, TO THE SUMMARY PARAGRAPH. (8) IF YOU WOULD READ THAT FOR US, PLEASE. (9) A "IN SUMMARY, THE PCB POLLUTION PROBLEM IS (10) A VERY SERIOUS ONE. (11) "IT'S A WORLDWIDE ECOLOGICAL PROBLEM. (12) "AT PRESENTTHE MOST SERIOUS OFFENDERS (13) ARE THE 5/6 CHLORINE-CONTAINING PRODUCTS (AROCLORS (14) 1254 AND 1260.) (15) "THERE ARE SOME INDICATIONS OTHER MEMBERS (16) ARE BIODEGRADABLE TO VARYING DEGREES. (17) "CURRENTLY, MUCH SCIENTIFIC TESTING IS (18) UNDERWAY AND MORE INFORMATION WILL BE FORTHCOMING. (19) "MONSANTO MUST ACT IN A POSITIVE, (20) COOPERATIVE FASHION. A PLAN OF ACTION HAS BEEN (21) DISCUSSED WHICH WE FEEL INDICATES RESPONSIBLE (22) ACTION. (23) "OUR STAKES ARE LARGE AND BECAUSE OF THE (24) MANY POSSIBLE EFFECTS ON THE CORPORATION, YOUR (25) GUIDANCE AND APPROVAL OF THE SUGGESTED ACTION PROGRAM (26) IS REQUESTED." (27) Q AND WAS THE ACTION PLAN SUGGESTED OR (28) RECOMMENDED BY MR. BERGEN AND MR. SPRINGGATE APPROVED Page 2066 (1) BY THE CMC, SIR? (2) AYES, IT WAS. (3) Q IF YOU WOULD, SIR, PLEASE TURN TO EXHIBIT (4) 111. (5) AI HAVE IT. (6) Q AND ARE THESE THE MINUTES OF THE (7) CORPORATE DEVELOPMENT COMMITTEE, NOVEMBER 17,1969? (8) A THEY ARE. (9) Q AND WAS THIS THE MEETING AT WHICH THE (10) RECOMMENDATIONS OF MR. SPRINGGATE AND MR. BERGEN WERE (11) APPROVED, SIR? (12) A YES, THEY WERE. (13) Q ALL RIGHT. TURN IF YOU WOULD, PLEASE, TO (14) PAGE 2. (15) AND YOU WILL SEE "ENVIRONMENTAL ASPECTS, (16) E.P. WHEELER." (17) A I DO. (18) Q DOES THAT INDICATE THAT MR. WHEELER MADE (19) A PRESENTATION? (20) AYES. (21) Q ALL RIGHT. AND WHAT DID HE SAY ABOUT THE (22) TECHNICAL OR SCIENTIFIC ASPECTS TO THE CMC AS OF THAT (23) DATE, NOVEMBER, 1969, SIR? (24) A IT'S REPRODUCED IN THIS PARAGRAPH. (25) SHOULD I READ IT? (26) Q YES, WOULD YOU, PLEASE. SERVICE. (27) IT CONSIDERED THE CUSTOMER AND WHAT THE (28) CUSTOMER WAS ABLE TO DO TO CORRECT A (27) A "THE FIVE OR SIX CHLORINATED BIPHENYLS, (28) (AROCLOR SIZE 1254 AND 1260), HAVE BEEN FOUND AT SITUATION, Transwestern v. Monsanto Page 2063 to Page 2066 WATER PCB-SD0000075897 BSA Trial Transcript [December 8,1993] XMAX(4) Page 2067 (1) LIMITED LOCATIONS IN WATER, IN BIRDS AND SOME FORMS (2) OF AQUATIC LIFE. (3) "RECENT INDICATIONS ARE THAT SUCH (4) BIPHENYLS MIGHT AFFECT REPRODUCTION OF FOWL LIFE AND (5) MAY BE TOXIC TO SHRIMP. (6) 'THESE PRODUCTS ARE NOT TOXIC FROM THE (7) ACUTE STANDPOINT TO MAN OR FISH BUT THERE IS SOME (8) EVIDENCE OF ECOLOGICAL BUILDUP IN CERTAIN WATER (9) DEPOSITS, IN FISH AND ULTIMATELY IN BIRD LIFE." (10) Q THE NEXT PARAGRAPH? (11) A "AROCLORS 1248 AND LOWER IN NUMBER ARE (12) BELIEVED TO BE BIODEGRADABLE BUT THIS HAS NOT BEEN (13) CONCLUSIVELY ESTABLISHED AS YET." (14) Q ALL RIGHT. AND IF YOU GO A LITTLE BIT (15) LOWER IN THAT PAGE THERE, SIR, IT WILL INDICATE PLAN (16) OF ACTION OR IT INDICATES THEIR PLAN OF ACTION, (17) MR. BERGEN AND MR. SPRINGGATE. (18) AYES. (19) Q AND THE LAST PARAGRAPH THERE INDICATES (20) WHAT? (21) A 'THE RECOMMENDED PLAN OF ACTION IS TO (22) ESTABLISH A TAILORED PROGRAM FOR EACH BUSINESS GROUP (23) AND EACH CUSTOMER MARKET SITUATION TO ASSURE THAT THE (24) LOSS OF PCB'S IN THE ENVIRONMENT, IF ANY, IS (25) MINIMAL." (26) Q AND THEN THE NEXT PAGE INDICATES WHAT, (27) SIR? (28) A THE NEXT PAGE LISTS THE 12 POINTS OF THE Page 2068 (1) APPROVED PROGRAM. (2) Q ALL RIGHT. AND THE NUMBER ONE IS (3) "APPOINT A PROJECT MANAGER"? (4) A IT IS. (5) Q AND THAT WAS JUST A SHORT TIME LATER? Page 2069 (1) IN ANY CASE, WHAT IS MEANT BY "NEW (2) PACKAGING SYSTEMS"? . (3) A THE EXISTING SYSTEM AT THE TIME IN (4) MONSANTO'S PLANTS WERE SUCH THAT AT TIMES IT WOULD (5) OVERFILL A DRUM, FOR EXAMPLE, OR THE FEW FUMES THAT (6) WOULD COME OFF FROM THE FILLING OPERATION WOULD JUST (7) GO OUT INTO THE ATMOSPHERE. (8) AND THE IDEA HERE WAS TO REDESIGN THE (9) SYSTEM SO THAT THE OVERFILLING OF A DRUM WOULD BE (10) PREVENTED BY INSTRUMENTS, FOR EXAMPLE. (11) AND THE FUMES THAT DID COME OFF WOULD BE (12) SUCKED UP IN A COLLECTION SYSTEM AND NOT PERMITTED TO (13) GO OUT INTO THE WORK AREA AND ON OUT INTO THE (14) ATMOSPHERE. (15) Q NUMBER SIX, "TALKED ABOUT REPLACEMENT (16) PRODUCTS FOR THE HIGHER-CHLORINATED AROCLORS, 54 AND (17) 60." (18) A IT DOES. (19) Q AND NUMBER SEVEN IS WHAT? (20) A "CONTINUE AND EXPAND BIODEGRADATION (21) PROGRAMS WITH AROCLOR SERIES, PARTICULARLY 1242, 1248 (22) AND 1254." (23) Q AND MR. TUCKER, DR. TUCKER AS WE ' (24) DISCUSSED YESTERDAY, WAS WORKING IN THAT AREA? (25) AYES, HE WAS. (26) Q NUMBER EIGHT. (27) A "CONTINUE TOXICOLOGICAL TEST PROGRAM." (28) Q THAT IS THE LAB STUDIES THAT BIO-TEST HAD Page 2070 (1) STARTED? (2) A YES, THAT WERE UNDERWAY. (3) Q HOW LONG HAD THEY BEEN UNDERWAY AS OF (4) NOVEMBER OF'69? (5) A ALMOST A YEAR. (6) Q AND NUMBER 9? (6) AYES. (7) Q "NOTIFY ALL AROCLOR CUSTOMERS OF PCB (8) PROBLEM," NUMBER TWO. (9) AYES. (10) Q HAD THAT BEEN DONE UP TO THAT TIME, SIR? (11) A NOT AS OF THE DATE OF THIS MEETING, NO. (12) Q HAD SOME CUSTOMERS BEEN NOTIFIED? (13) AYES. (14) Q BUT NOT ALL? (15) A THAT'S CORRECT. (16) Q AND THEN, "REDUCE AND EFFECTIVELY CONTROL (17) PCB EFFLUENCE FROM MONSANTO PLANTS." AND HAD (18) SOMETHING BEEN STARTED IN THAT AREA? (19) A THEY DID START, YES. (20) Q AND NUMBER 3 IS, WHAT IS THAT - OR (21) NUMBER 4, EXCUSE ME. (22) A "EDUCATE CUSTOMERS WHO NEED TO REDUCE AND (23) EFFECTIVELY CONTROL PCB EFFLUENCE AT THEIR PLANTS." (24) Q AND NUMBER FIVE? (25) A "DEVELOP AND IMPLEMENT NEW PACKAGING (26) SYSTEMS FOR AROCLOR 1254 AND 1260." (27) Q AND DID WE DISCUSS THAT EARLIER? (28) DO YOU REMEMBER THAT? (7) A "ACCELERATE PRESENT ANALYTICAL TEST (8) PROGRAM." (9) Q AND, AGAIN, WHAT IS THAT IN REFERENCE TO? (10) A THAT IS THE PROGRAM THAT DR. TUCKER WAS (11) HEADING ON LEARNING MORE AND MORE ABOUT, WHAT THE (12) BEST WAYS FOR ANALYZING FOR PCB'S WERE AND SORT OF (13) FINE-TUNING PROCEDURE. (14) Q NUMBER 10? (15) A "DETERMINE FEASIBILITY AND THE COST OF (16) ELIMINATING THE FIVE, SIX CHLORINE IN AROCLORS 1242 (17) AND 1248." (18) Q AND NUMBER 11? (19) A "STUDY INCINERATION PRODUCTS." (20) Q WHAT WAS THE IDEA BEHIND THIS PARTICULAR (21) ITEM, SIR? (22) A IT WAS BELIEVED THAT THE PROPER (23) INCINERATION OF PCB'S THAT WERE NOT USEFUL ANY LONGER (24) WOULD BE A RESPONSIBLE WAY OF DISPOSING OF THOSE (25) CONTAMINATED PCB'S. (26) AND THIS PARTICULAR ITEM REFERS TO (27) TESTING TO SEE THAT WHATEVER COMES UP OUT OF THE . (28) STACK OR GOES DOWN INTO THE SEWER, SO TO Page 2067 to Page 2070 Transwestern v. Monsanto WATER PCB-SD0000075898 BSA Trial Transcript [December 8,1993] XMAX(5) SPEAK, DO Page 2071 (1) NOT CONTAIN PCB'S. (2) Q THE iDEA WAS THAT INCINERATION OF PCB'S (3) WOULD ELIMINATE THE PCB'S? (25) AND CAN YOU EXPLAIN WHY IT TOOK THREE (26) YEARS TO DEVELOP AN ACTION PLAN AFTER THE FIRST (27) FINDINGS OF DR. WIDMARK IN 1966? (28) A WELL, IT'S A HIGHLY CHALLENGING TECHNICAL (4) A YES, YES. (5) Q AND THE FINAL ONE, NUMBER 12. (6) A DEVELOP A BUSINESS PLAN TO OFFER A (7) MONSANTO FLUID RECLAMATION AND RECOVERY WITH Page 2073 (1) PROBLEM. (2) THERE IS NO MAGIC WAND THAT ONE CAN BUY (3) AND WAVE AND HAVE THINGS DONE OVERNIGHT. IT JUST (8) ENVIROCHEM RECLAMATION ALREADY UNDER WAY (4) TAKES TIME. AT FINDETT. (9) Q AND "RECLAMATION" WAS A REFERENCE TO (10) WHAT, SIR? (5) MONSANTO WAS VERY ANXIOUS TO DO THE RIGHT (6) THING, BUT THAT ACTION HAD TO BE BASED ON GOOD SOLID (11) A THIS IS AN ATTEMPT TO TAKE MATERIAL WHICH (12) IS NOT SUITABLE FOR THE USE THAT IT'S ALREADY IN (7) SCIENCE. OTHERWISE, DECISIONS MADE ON POOR SCIENCE AND (13) TREAT IT TO PURIFY IT AGAIN SO IT HAS A USE, VERY (8) WOULD COME BACK TO HAUNT YOU LATER BECAUSE YOU HAVE (14) MUCH LIKE OUR PLASTICS RECYCLE PROGRAM WE HEAR TODAY. (9) CREATED A MORE SERIOUS PROBLEM. (10) SO THE WHOLE IDEA WAS TO GO INTO THIS (15) THE IDEA IS TO TRY TO KEEP THAT PCB FROM (16) ENTERING THE ENVIRONMENT BY MAKING IT USEFUL AGAIN BY (17) PURIFYING IT. (18) Q AND THEN IN THE CONCLUSION SECTION IS (19) THERE A REFERENCE TO DISCONTINUING CERTAIN PRODUCTS? (20) A YES, THERE IS. (21) Q AND WHAT IS THAT REFERENCE TO, SIR? (22) A IT SAYS, "IN THE LIGHT OF RECENT AND (23) DEVELOPING EVIDENCE OF A POSSIBLE THREAT TO (11) WITH THE BEST INFORMATION AVAILABLE. (12) THE INFORMATION, FOR EXAMPLE, IN (13) ANALYTICAL PROCEDURES, THE QUESTION OF PROPER (14) IDENTIFICATION AND ONCE YOU IDENTIFY IT, JUST HOW (15) MUCH IS REALLY THERE AND CAN MANY LABORATORIES GET (16) THE SAME ANSWER OR ALL OF THESE ANSWERS SO DIFFERENT (17) THAT IT CAUSES CONFUSION. CERTAIN (24) SPECIES OF BIRDS AND AQUATIC LIFE, WE SHOULD PLAN TO (25) DISCONTINUE THE MANUFACTURE OF AROCLORS 1254 AND (26) 1260. (27) 'THE DIVISION IS INSTRUCTED TO DEVELOP A (18) THAT TOOK A WHILE, TO GET THE METHODOLOGY (19) DOWN AND TO GET THE RIGHT INSTRUMENTS IN PLACE AND (20) LOOKING FOR EVEN BETTER METHODS AND INSTRUMENTS (21) THROUGH THAT PERIOD OF TIME. (22) AND IF YOU WILL RECALL, THE DOCUMENT WE (28) PROGRAM TO DISCONTINUE THESE PRODUCTS AND REPORT THIS___________ ___________________________________ Page 2072 (1) TO THE COMMITTEE." (2) Q AND WAS THERE A SPECIAL REFERENCE TO 1242 (3) ALSO IN THE CONCLUSION SECTION? (4) A NO. (5) Q IN THE NEXT PARAGRAPH? (6) A OH, THE NEXT PARAGRAPH? (7) THE STATUS OF AROCLOR 1242 SHOULD (8) CONTINUE TO BE TESTED TO DETERMINE WHETHER IT (9) CONTRIBUTES TO THIS PROBLEM. OTHER PRODUCTS WHICH (10) MIGHT BE" (11) Q I'M SORRY, MY MISTAKE. (12) GO AHEAD. (13) A "OTHER PRODUCTS WHICH MIGHT BE INVOLVED (14) SHOULD ALSO BE EXAMINED." (15) Q THANK YOU. NOW, WAS THIS ACTION PLAN WE (16) HAVE DISCUSSED, SIR, BASICALLY YOUR, IF YOU WILL, (17) MARCHING ORDERS WHEN YOU TOOK OVER IN JANUARY OF (18) 1970? (19) AYES. (20) Q AS WE HAVE DISCUSSED EARLIER, SIR, MR. OR (21) DR. WIDMARICS FINDINGS OCCURRED SOMEWHERE IN LATE (22) DECEMBER OF 1966 AND NOW MONSANTO, AS WE HAVE (23) DISCUSSED, HAS BEEN DEALING WITH THIS (23) SAW YESTERDAY WHERE DR. TUCKER LISTED ALL THE KNOWN (24) ANALYTICAL DATA, IF YOU LOOK AT THAT SHEET, THAT (25) COVERED THE THREE-YEAR PERIOD WE ARE TALKING ABOUT. (26) AND MANY OF THOSE SAMPLES ARE GENERATED (27) BY DR. TUCKER IN HIS STUDY. (28) THEY WERE MONSANTO SAMPLES. Page 2074 (1) AND, YES, THE REST OF THE WORLD WAS (2) COVERED IN SOME OF THOSE, BUT IT WAS STILL VERY, VERY (3) HAZY. (4) NOT ENOUGH TO MAKE A REAL IMPORTANT (5) DECISION. (6) Q THANK YOU, SIR. (7) ONCE YOU ASSUMED YOUR JOB AS THE MANAGER (8) OF ENVIRONMENTAL CONTROL, DID YOU TAKE STEPS TO (9) ACQUAINT YOURSELF WITH THE HISTORY OF THE PCB ISSUE (10) AND FAMILIARIZE YOURSELF WITH WHAT HAD BEEN DONE UP (11) TO THE TIME THAT YOU ASSUMED YOUR JOB? (12) AYES, I DID. (13) Q WAS THERE ANYONE IN THE INDUSTRY OR (14) GOVERNMENT THAT YOU COULD LOOK TO TO GET ALL OF THIS (15) INFORMATION? (16) A THERE WAS NO ONE PERSON TO GET IT ALL (17) FROM. SITUATION FOR (24) THREE YEARS. (18) I HAD TO TALK TO MANY PEOPLE TO GATHER (19) ALL THE BITS AND PIECES. Transwestern v. Monsanto Page 2070 to Page 2074 WATER PCB-SD0000075899 BSA Trial Transcript [December B, 1993] XMAX(6) (20) Q AND YOU INDICATED, I BELIEVE, EARLIER, (21) THAT YOU TALKED DR. RICHARD, DR. KELLY AND (22) MR. WHEELER? (23) AYES. (24) Q WHAT ELSE DID YOU DO TO FAMILIARIZE (25) YOURSELF WITH THE SITUATION AS YOU FOUND IT IN (26) JANUARY OF 1970? (27) A THERE WAS AN AWFUL LOT OF LITERATURE I (2B) PERUSED OR READ. Page 2075 (1) I WAS IN CONTACT WITH THE REPRESENTATIVES (2) OF CUSTOMERS. (3) I WAS IN TOUCH WITH THE REPRESENTATIVES (4) OF FEDERAL LABORATORIES, THE ANALYTICAL LABORATORIES, (5) FOR EXAMPLE, ALSO WITH SOME OF THE (21) THINGS YOU DID WAS TO CONTACT CUSTOMERS? (22) AYES. (23) Q OKAY. DID YOU TAKE STEPS ALSO TO MAKE (24) SURE THAT CUSTOMERS, ALL CUSTOMERS, WERE CONTACTED? (25) AYES. (26) IN FEBRUARY, RIGHT AFTER I ASSUMED THE (27) JOB, WE HAD A PROGRAM FOR INFORMING CUSTOMERS ON THE (28) RECORD. Page 2077 (1) Q WHAT WAS THAT? (2) A IT WAS A FORM LETTER, REALLY. IT WAS (3) TAILORED TO FIT THE DIFFERENT, BIG CATEGORIES OF (4) BUSINESSES IN WHICH THE - WE TRIED TO TELL THEM IN REGULATORY PEOPLE (5) AS FEW WORDS AS POSSIBLE WHAT THE STATUS OF (6) IN THE EXISTING GOVERNMENTAL AGENCIES AT THAT THE PCB TIME. (7) Q DID YOU LOOK AT ANY LITERATURE THAT MAY (8) BE AVAILABLE ON PCB'S? (9) A MOUNDS OF LITERATURE, YES. (10) Q DID YOU TAKE ANY STEPS TO MAKE SURE YOU (11) WERE GOING TO KEEP ABREAST OF WHAT WAS HAPPENING (12) AROUND MONSANTO? (13) A WELL, I MADE IT KNOWN THAT I WAS (14) INTERESTED IN CERTAIN INFORMATION. (15) I ASKED THE LIBRARIANS WHO RECEIVED BOOKS (16) AND DOCUMENTS TO PERUSE THE CONTENTS AND LET ME KNOW, (17) SEND ME A COPY WITH A CIRCLE AROUND THE ITEM SOI (18) COULD GO TO THE LIBRARY AND READ THE ARTICLE. (19) I EVEN SUBSCRIBED, AS I REMEMBER, TO A (20) SERVICE THAT GAVE ME COLLECTIONS OF ANY PRESS (21) CLIPPINGS OF NEWSPAPER ARTICLES AND SCIENTIFIC (22) JOURNALS. (23) I GOT A WEEKLY DELIVERY OF A BUNDLE OF (24) CLIPPINGS. (25) Q DID YOU MEET WITH ANY OF THE SCIENTISTS (26) THEMSELVES? (27) A OH, YES. (28) Q DID YOU TALK TO DR. WIDMARK? (6) SITUATION IN THE ENVIRONMENT WAS, AS OF FEBRUARY, (7) 1970. (8) Q OKAY. (9) COULD YOU TAKE A LOOK AT EXHIBIT 125, (10) PLEASE. (11) AI HAVE IT. (12) Q ALL RIGHT. AND IS THIS A COMMUNICATION (13) THAT RESULTED FROM THE EFFORT TO INFORM CUSTOMERS OF (14) MONSANTO ABOUT THE PCB SITUATION? (15) AYES. (16) Q IS THIS WHAT YOU HAD REFERENCE TO A SHORT (17) TIME AGO IN YOUR TESTIMONY? (18) A WELL, I HAD REFERENCE, REALLY, TO THE (19) ATTACHMENTS TO THIS PARTICULAR EXHIBIT. (20) Q OKAY. THE COVER - THERE IS A COVER (21) MEMO HERE, RIGHT, OF TWO PAGES, BY MR. JOHNSON? (22) AND THEN THERE IS A LETTER THAT IS (23) ATTACHED TO THAT? (24) AYES. (25) Q AND I BELIEVE YOU WERE QUESTIONED ON THAT (26) THE OTHER DAY. (27) A YES, SIR. (28) Q LETS STAY WITH THE COVER LETTER FOR A Page 2078 (1) MOMENT. Page 2076 (1) A EVENTUALLY, EARLY IN 70, YES. (2) I TALKED TO DR. WIDMARK AND OTHERS. (3) Q AND DID YOU ACTUALLY GO TO SWEDEN TO SEE (4) DR:WIDMARK? (2) DID YOU REVIEW THIS LETTER, SIR? (3) A BEFORE IT WAS SENT? YES. (4) Q AND YOU WERE ASKED ABOUT ONE PHRASE IN (5) THE SECOND PARAGRAPH OF MR. JOHNSON'S LETTER, IN (5) AYES. (6) Q AND WHEN WAS THAT? (7) A THAT WAS IN LATE APRIL, EARLY MAY, FIRST (8) PART OF MAY. (9) Q DID YOU GO WITH ANYBODY ELSE? (10) AYES, DR. KELLER, THE ANALYTICAL (11) SUPERVISOR, AND MR. WHEELER. (12) Q AND WHAT WAS THE PURPOSE FOR YOUR VISIT, (13) SIR? (6) PARTICULAR, 'WE DON'T WANT TO TAKE FLUID BACK." (7) DO YOU SEE THAT? (8) A I DO SEE IT. (9) Q WHAT IS MEANT BY THAT AS YOU UNDERSTAND (10) IT, SIR? (11) MR, TALLON: OBJECTION, NO FOUNDATION. (12) THE COURT: SUSTAINED. (13) Q BY MR. PREUSS: DID YOU HAVE AN (14) A MY PARTICULAR - MY PERSONAL PURPOSE (15) REALLY WAS TO GET EDUCATED, IF YOU WILL, AND (14) UNDERSTANDING AS TO WHAT WAS MEANT BY THAT AT THE ALSO TO (16) TOUCH BASE WITH THESE INDIVIDUALS AS TO WHAT THEY (15) TIME YOU REVIEWED THIS LETTER BEFORE IT WAS SENT OUT? (16) AI DID, YES. (17) WERE THINKING OF THE FUTURE WORK THEY PLANNED AND (18) WHAT THEY HAD FOUND SINCE THE LAST TIME MONSANTO (19) PEOPLE HAD TALKED TO THEM. (20) Q AND YOU INDICATED THAT ONE OF THE FIRST (17) Q WHAT WAS THAT UNDERSTANDING? (18) A THERE WERE MANY, HUNDREDS OF CUSTOMERS (19) INVOLVED WITH THIS PARTICULAR GROUP. (20) THE FEAR THAT EXISTED AT THE TIME IS THAT (21) ALL OF THESE CUSTOMERS WOULD START DRAINING THEIR Page 2074 to Page 2078 Transwestern v. Monsanto WATER PCB-SD0000075900 BSA Triai Transcript [December 8,1993] XMAX(7) (22) SYSTEMS, PUTTING IT IN RUSTY DRUMS AND HAULING IT (23) ACROSS THE COUNTRY WITHOUT RECOGNIZING THAT (24) ENVIRONMENTAL PROBLEMS COULD BE GENERATED IT WOULD (25) CREATE A PROBLEM FAR GREATER THAN THE SITUATION THAT (26) EXISTED WHEN A GOOD PRODUCT IS IN A SYSTEM THAT IS , (27) PROVIDING THIS CUSTOMER WITH A GOOD SERVICE, IT ISN'T (28) DAMAGING HIS MACHINE, IT IS GIVING HIM THAT FIRE Page 2079 (1) PROTECTION HE WAS LOOKING FOR IN THE FIRST PLACE. (2) IF HE CAN CONTROL ANY LEAKAGE AND DRIPS (3) FROM HIS SYSTEM FROM GETTING AWAY FROM THEM, THERE IS (4) NO REASON IN THE WORLD TO DRAIN THAT SYSTEM (15) SENT. (16) Q NOW, WHO ARE THE RECIPIENTS OF (17) MR. JOHNSON'S COVER MEMO HERE? (18) A THESE ARE ALL HIS FIELD SALESMEN. (19) Q ANYBODY UNDER HIS - AND MR. JOHNSON WAS (20) IN WHAT ASPECT OF MONSANTO'S BUSINESS? (21) A HE WAS THE MANAGER FOR - IN THE (22) FUNCTIONAL FLUIDS GROUP RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT WE CALL (23) IN A GENERIC KIND OF WAY "HYDRAULIC FLUIDS." (24) Q AND DID YOU GET TOGETHER WITH MR. JOHNSON (25) AND OTHERS THAT WERE IN SIMILAR JOB POSITIONS? (26) A OH, YES. (27) Q AT MONSANTO? (28) A CERTAINLY. , Page 2081 (1) QAND AT OR ABOUT FEBRUARY OF 1970? (2) A OH, YES, MANY TIMES, UH-HUH. AND (5) CREATE PROBLEMS WHILE YOU ARE DRAINING IT AND GETTING (3) Q AND WHEN YOU SAY "MANY TIMES," WERE THESE (4) PERIODIC MEETINGS THAT YOU WOULD GET TOGETHER? (6) RID OF THE MATERIAL (7) SO HE IS MUCH BETTER OFF TO CONTINUE (8) USING THAT GOOD FLUID, ADDING A LITTLE TOPPING (5) A SOME OF THEM WERE ACTUALLY MEETINGS (6) CALLED FOR AND HELD. OTHERS WERE DISCUSSIONS, ONE ON OFF, (9) AS THEY CALL IT, JUST LIKE WE ADD OIL, THE ENGINE (7) ONE, IN OFFICES, IN CORRIDORS, JUST A LOT OF DIRECT OIL (10) IN OUR CARS. DON'T LET ANY DRIPS AND LEAKAGES GET (11) AWAY FROM YOU. THERE IS NO REASON IN THE (8) CONTACT. (9) Q WAS THE SUBJECT OF THE STATUS OF PCB (10) DISCUSSED AT THESE MEETING? (11) A OH, YES. WORLD WHY (12) THAT PRODUCT CANT PROVIDE YOU WITH WHAT YOU WANTED. (13) THAT WAS SAFETY AND GOOD PERFORMANCE. (14) THERE IS NO NEED TO DRAIN IT AND POSSIBLY (15) CAUSE FURTHER PROBLEMS. (16) THAT WAS THE WHOLE INTENT OF THAT. (17) IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT WE WOULDN'T TAKE IT (18) BACK. IF A CUSTOMER INSISTED ON IT, YEAH, WE COULD (19) INCINERATE IT FOR THEM. (20) Q ALL RIGHT. I WOULD LIKE TO HAVE YOU GO (21) TO THE SECOND PAGE THERE, IF YOU WOULD, PLEASE. (22) AI SEE IT. (23) Q AND THE PARAGRAPH THAT BEGINS, "WE SHOULD (24) RECOGNIZE." (25) COULD YOU READ THAT? (26) A "WE SHOULD ALSO RECOGNIZE, (POINT THIS OUT (12) THAT WAS THE SUBJECT OF THE DAY. (13) Q AND DID YOU HAVE MEETINGS ON A MORE OR (14) LESS PERIODIC OR REGULAR BASIS BEGINNING AFTER YOU (15) TOOK OVER YOUR JOB RESPONSIBILITIES IN JANUARY OF (16) '70? (17) A OH, YES. (18) Q ALL RIGHT. COULD YOU TURN TO THE (19) ATTACHED LETTER, PLEASE, SIR. (20) A THERE ARE TWO OF THEM. (21) Q THE FIRST ONE, IF YOU WOULD, PLEASE. (22) AI HAVE IT. (23) Q ALL RIGHT. YOU WILL SEE IN THE SECOND (24) PARAGRAPH THERE, THERE IS A REFERENCE TO PYDRAUL-AC? (25) AYES. (26) Q ALL RIGHT. AND "AC" STANDS FOR WHAT? (27) A AIR COMPRESSORS. (28) Q AND HOW IS PYDRAUL-AC USED, SIR? (27) TO YOUR CUSTOMER) WE MUST CLEAN UP. (28) 'THE CHEMICAL WEEK ARTICLE GIVES HIM AN Page 2080 (1) IDEA OF LAWS IN EFFECT IN HIS STATE. READ THIS (2) YOURSELF. (3) "BE FAMILIAR WITH THE DATA ON EACH STATE (4) IN WHICH YOUR CUSTOMERS ARE LOCATED. USE Page 2082 (1) A IT'S USED AS A LUBRICANT IN COMPRESSORS. (2) Q OKAY. AND WAS - WERE AIR COMPRESSOR (3) FLUIDS, PYDRAUL-AC, IN PARTICULAR, CONSIDERED A (4) CLOSED SYSTEM? (5) A NOT - IT WASN'T PERFECTLY CLOSED. THIS IN (5) YOUR DISCUSSIONS." (6) Q AND THE CHEMICAL WEEK ARTICLE I TAKE IT (7) WAS A SUMMARY ARTICLE OF WHATEVER REGULATIONS MAY (8) REFER TO THE USE OF PRODUCTS THAT CONTAIN PCB? (9) A NO. (10) THIS WAS AN ARTICLE THAT HAD A SUMMARY OF (11) THE EXISTING STATE RULES AND REGULATIONS CONCERNING (12) WASTE WATERS FROM WITHIN THE STATES. (13) Q ALL RIGHT. AND THIS WAS AN ENCLOSURE? (14) A IT WAS ATTACHED TO THE LETTER THAT WAS (6) THERE WERE SOME LOSSES OF THE FLUID (7) THROUGH-WHILE IT WAS WORKING. WE WOULD VENT OFF , (8) SOME VAPORS AND GET SOME LIQUID IN THE COMPRESSED AIR (9) THAT IT WAS GENERATING. (10) Q I WANT YOU TO BACK UP A LITTLE BIT THERE, (11) SIR. (12) IN THE FIRST PARAGRAPH THERE, THIS IS A (13) LETTER THAT IS GOING TO BE - WENT TO CUSTOMERS, (14) RIGHT? (15) AYES. (16) Q CAN YOU READ THAT FIRST PARAGRAPH OUT Transwestern v. Monsanto Page 2078 to Page 2082 WATER PCB-SD0000075901 BSA Trial Transcript [December 8,1993] XMAX(8) (17) LOUD, PLEASE? (18) A "RECENTLY SEVERAL NEWSPAPER AND MAGAZINE (19) ARTICLES HAVE BEEN PUBLISHED INDICATING THAT (20) POLYCHLORINATED BIPHENYLS, (PCB'S), HAVE BEEN (21) DISCOVERED AT SOME POINTS IN SOME MARINE, AQUATIC AND (22) WILDLIFE ENVIRONMENTS. (23) 'THE QUANTITIES DETECTED ARE SAID TO BE (24) IN THE PARTS-PER-MILLION AND PARTS-PER-BILLION (25) CATEGORIES." (26) Q THANK YOU, SIR. (27) NOW, FROM TIME TO TIME AFTER RECEIVING (28) YOUR JOB RESPONSIBILITIES AND COMMUNICATING WITH DISCUSS THE (21) TOXICITY OF TURBINOL-153 (FORMERLY MCS 153), WITH . (22) TEXAS EASTERN GAS TRANSMISSION CORPORATION IN HOUSTON (23) TEXAS." (24) SHOULD I READ FURTHER ON? (25) Q BY MR. PREUSS: SURE. WHY DON'T YOU GO (26) AHEAD? (27) A 'TURBINOL-153 IS PRINCIPALLY PCB'S." (28) Q WHY DON'T YOU GO AHEAD AND READ THE WHOLE Page 2085 (1) THING. Page 2083 (1) CUSTOMERS, DID YOU GET QUESTIONS BACK FROM CUSTOMERS (2) FROM TIME TO TIME? (3) A OH, YES. (4) Q IF YOU WOULD, SIR, TAKE A LOOK AT (5) TRANSWESTERN 128. (6) AI HAVE IT. (7) Q FIRST OF ALL, SIR, COULD YOU TELL US TO (8) WHOM THAT MEMO WAS SENT AND BY WHOM? (9) A THIS MEMORANDUM WAS SENT TO ME BY (10) MR. JACK GARRETT OF MONSANTO'S MEDICAL DEPARTMENT. (11) IT'S DATED FEBRUARY 19,1970. (12) Q SO THAT WAS WITHIN A FEW DAYS OF THE (13) FEBRUARY 16TH LETTER THAT WE JUST LOOKED (2) A 'THE QUESTION THAT ARISES IS DO WE TELL (3) THIS CUSTOMER THAT THIS PRODUCT IS COMPOSED OF (4) PRINCIPALLY PCB WITH SOME PHOSPHATE ESTER AND THEN (5) GIVE THE CUSTOMER THE TOXICITY AND SAFE-HANDLING (6) CHARACTERISTICS OR DO WE WAIT UNTIL THE CUSTOMER IS (7) INFORMED BY THE PCB GENERAL INFORMATION PROGRAM. (8) "IN THE CASE OF THE TEXAS EASTERN (9) REQUEST, THEY WANT TO KNOW WHAT THE DECOMPOSITION (10) PRODUCTS OF THE TURBINOL-153 COULD BE WOULD BE. AT? (14) AYES. (15) Q AND I WOULD LIKE TO TURN YOUR ATTENTION (16) TO THE BOTTOM OF THE PAGE, THERE, WHICH STARTS OUT (17) WITH THE SECOND ISSUE. (18) AI SEE IT. (19) Q AND CAN YOU TELL US WHAT THE SECOND ISSUE (20) WAS ALL ABOUT, SIR? (21) A I'M READING THIS LETTER TO FIND OUT WHAT (22) THE FIRST ISSUE IS. (23) Q ALL RIGHT. (24) A THE SECOND ISSUE HERE REFERS TO THE (25) SITUATION WHERE A TRADE NAME IS USED TO DESCRIBE A (26) PRODUCT AND THE TRADE NAME IN ITSELF DOESN'T INDICATE (27) THE PRESENCE OF PCB'S IN THAT CONTAINER, THE TRADE (11) "WE CANNOT GIVE THIS INFORMATION TO THE (12) CUSTOMER WITHOUT REVEALING THAT IT IS PRINCIPALLY A (13) CHLORINATED ORGANIC." (14) Q HOW DID YOU HANDLE THIS INQUIRY, SIR, (15) FROM MR. GARRETT? (16) AI CALLED HIM AND TOLD HIM - TOLD HIM (17) EVERYTHING. (18) THERE IS NO REASON NOT TO SAY THAT IT (19) CONTAINS CHLORINATED HYDROCARBONS." (20) Q IN FACT, THAT IS ON THE LABEL, RIGHT? (21) MR. TALLON: OBJECTION, FOUNDATION. (22) THE COURT: SUSTAINED. (23) Q DO YOU RECALL THE LABELING WE LOOKED AT (24) THE OTHER DAY, SIR? (25) A1 DO. (26) Q AND EXHIBIT 721 IS THE LABEL WE DISCUSSED (27) YESTERDAY. (28) YOU MIGHT LOOK AT THE BOARD THERE, IF YOU (28) NAME ITSELF.; Page 2084 (1) Q AND THE TRADE NAME IN THIS CASE IS (2) TURBINOL-153? (3) A YEAH, IF YOU GO FURTHER DOWN THE (4) PARAGRAPH, HE IS USING TURBINOL-153 AS A GOOD (5) EXAMPLE. (6) Q AND THE INQUIRY CAME FROM WHOM? Page 2086 (1) WANT. (2) CAN YOU READ IT ALL RIGHT FROM THERE? (3) A SOMEWHAT. (4) IT'S A LITTLE DISTORTED, BUT I CAN MAKE (5) IT OUT. (6) Q THAT'S RIGHT. (7) YOU ARE LOOKING AT AN ANGLE HERE. (7) MR. TALLON: OBJECTION, FOUNDATION. (8) THE COURT: SUSTAINED. (9) Q BY MR. PREUSS: DOES THE MEMO THAT YOU (10) RECEIVED INDICATE THAT THE INQUIRY CAME FROM A (11) PARTICULAR ENTITY, SIR? (12) A IT DOES. (13) THE COURT: DOES THE MEMO INDICATE? (14) ARE YOU ASKING HIM TO READ FROM THE (8) DOES THAT LABEL INDICATE A CHLORINATED (9) HYDROCARBON, SIR? (10) A YES, IN THE FIRST LINE SHOWN ON THE (11) SCREEN. (12) Q THANK YOU. (13) AND AS FAR AS YOU KNOW, THE COMMUNICATION (14) WENT BACK TO TEXAS EASTERN IN ACCORDANCE WITH YOUR (15) INSTRUCTIONS? (15) MEMO? (16) MR. PREUSS: YES. (16) MR. TALLON: OBJECTION, FOUNDATION. (17) THE COURT: SUSTAINED. (17) THE COURT: OVERRULED. (18) YOU MAY ANSWER. (19) THE WITNESS: IT SAYS, "AT THE PRESENT TIME WE (20) ARE HOLDING A REQUEST FROM CARL CLAY TO (18) Q BY MR. PREUSS: DO YOU HAVE ANY KNOWLEDGE (19) IN THAT REGARD, SIR? (20) AI HAVE AN UNDERSTANDING THAT MR. GARRETT (21) UNDERSTOOD WHAT I WAS TELLING HIM AND Page 2082 to Page 2086 Transwestern v. Monsanto WATER PCB-SD0000075902 BSA Trial Transcript [December 8,1993] XMAX(9) IMMEDIATELY (22) CONVEYED THAT TO MR. CLAY. (23) Q THANK YOU, SIR. (24) MR. TALLON: OBJECT AND MOVE TO STRIKE. (25) THE COURT: THE OBJECTION IS SUSTAINED. (26) LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, THE ANSWER WILL BE (27) STRICKEN. (28) I THINK THIS IS THE FIRST TIME IN THE Page 2087 (1) COURSE OF THE TRIAL I HAVE BEEN ASKED TO STRIKE (2) SOMETHING. (3) THAT MEANS YOU SHOULD DISREGARD IT AS IF (24) VISIT A FEW PCB CUSTOMERS, ALONG WITH A MONSANTO (25) REPRESENTATIVE IN CANADA. (26) AND HE HAD ASKED ME TO PREPARE SOMETHING (27) THAT HE COULD LATER USE WITH HIS OTHER CUSTOMERS THAT (28) WE COULD NOT VISIT AT THAT Tl ME. Page 2089 (1) SO I PREPARED THIS THREE-PAGE DOCUMENT. (2) Q ALL RIGHT. NOW, WAS IT PREPARED (3) SPECIFICALLY JUST FOR THIS CANADIAN CUSTOMER OR DID (4) YOU USE IT MORE BROADLY? (4) YOU HAD NOT HEARD IT. (5) Q BY MR. PREUSS: HOW DID YOU GAIN THAT (6) UNDERSTANDING, SIR? (7) MR. TALLON: OBJECTION. (8) THE COURT: AS FRAMED, SUSTAINED. (5) A OH, ONCE IT WAS PREPARED I USED IT QUITE (6) EXTENSIVELY, WHEREVER IT WAS APPROPRIATE. (7) Q ALL RIGHT. AND WHAT TYPE OF INFORMATION (8) THERE DID YOU INTEND TO COMMUNICATE TO THE CUSTOMER (9) DID YOU READ ANY UNDERSTANDING OF THE (10) GARRETT COMMUNICATION BACK FROM THE (9) WITH THIS DOCUMENT? (10) A WELL, IT BOILS DOWN TO AN ATTEMPT TO CUSTOMER? (11) SUMMARIZE WHAT WE KNEW ABOUT THE PCB (11) THAT IS THE QUESTION. DID YOU REACH ANY ENVIRONMENTAL (12) UNDERSTANDING? (13) THE WITNESS: YES. (14) THE COURT: HOW DID YOU REACH THAT (12) ISSUE, WHAT MONSANTO'S UNDERSTANDING WAS OF ALL THE , (13) STUDIES UNDERWAY. (15) UNDERSTANDING? (16) THE WITNESS: I REACHED AN UNDERSTANDING THAT (14) Q DOES IT TALK ABOUT THE PROGRAM THAT (15) MONSANTO HAS EMBARKED ON? (17) THIS WAS CONVEYED. (16) A YES, AND WHAT PROGRAM MONSANTO HAD. (18) THE COURT: NO, NOT WHAT WAS CONVEYED, HOW (17) Q AND THAT STARTS AT THE BOTTOM OF THE DID (18) FIRST PAGE? (19) YOU REACH AN UNDERSTANDING OF ANY (19) AYES. COMMUNICATION? WHO (20) Q AND THEN IT GOES ON TO THE SECOND PAGE? (20) TOLD YOU OR WHAT COMMUNICATION DID YOU SEE? (21) A UP TO THE TOP OF THE SECOND PAGE, (21) THE WITNESS: I HAD DISCUSSIONS WITH (22) UH-HUH. (22) MR. GARRETT AND WITH MR. CLAY AND WITH MR. JOHNSON, (23) ALL THREE. (24) MR. PREUSS: MAY I THEN ASK THE COURT TO (25) RECONSIDER ITS MOTION TO STRIKE? (26) THE COURT: ASK YOUR NEXT QUESTION, (23) Q AND THERE ARE SEVEN ITEMS, MANY OF WHICH (24) WE HAVE ALREADY DISCUSSED? (25) A CORRECT. (26) Q AND THEN YOU HAVE A SECTION THERE, (27) "BEGINNING STUDIES PERFORMED"? (28) AYES. (27) MR. PREUSS. (28) Q BY MR. PREUSS: TO THE BEST OF YOUR Page 2090 t. (1) Q AND WHAT WAS THE INTENT OF SHARING THAT Page 2088 (1) KNOWLEDGE, SIR, BASED ON INFORMATION YOU (2) INFORMATION? (3) A THE INTENT WAS TO INFORM THE CUSTOMER OF RECEIVED ' (2) FROM MR. CLAY, MR. JOHNSON AND MR. GARRETT, AS YOU (3) JUST INDICATED, WAS THE MESSAGE THAT YOU PASSED ON (4) COMMUNICATED? (5) MR. TALLON: OBJECTION, CALLS FOR A HEARSAY (4) WHAT WE KNEW ABOUT THE SITUATION AS OF DECEMBER, (5) 1970. (6) Q AND IF YOU WOULD, SIR, WOULD YOU READ THE (7) BEGINNING ON THE "BECAUSE" SECTION TO THE END OF THE (8) MEMO, PLEASE. (6) RESPONSE. (7) THE COURT: WHAT NON-HEARSAY PURPOSE, (8) MR. PREUSS, OR EXCEPTION? (9) MR. PREUSS: NOTICE. (9) A "BECAUSE OF ITS PRESENCE IN THE (10) ENVIRONMENT AN INDICATED EFFECT ON SOME SPECIES OF ! (11) WILDLIFE, COUPLED WITH THE CONCERN REGARDING (10) THE COURT: SUSTAINED. (11) Q BY MR. PREUSS: ALL RIGHT. (12) MR. PAPAGEORGE, IF YOU WOULD, SIR, I WOULD THE (12) EFFECT ON HUMANS OF LOW-LEVEL, LONG-TERM EXPOSURE, LIKE YOU (13) TO GO TO THE BLACK BINDERS AND IN (13) MONSANTO VOLUNTARILY INSTITUTED A WORLDWIDE PROGRAM PARTICULAR 716. (14) A I HAVE IT. (15) Q NOW, THIS IS A HISTORICAL SUMMARY OF PCB (16) ENVIRONMENTAL ISSUES THAT YOU PREPARED, (14) FOR TERMINATING THE SALE OF POLYCHLORINATED BIPHENYLS (15) TO THOSE USES IN WHICH CONTROL OF ESCAPE TO THE SIR? (17) AI DID. (18) Q AND WHEN DID YOU PREPARE THIS? (19) A IT WAS LATE IN 1970, ABOUT NOVEMBER OR (16) ENVIRONMENT WAS IMPRACTICAL." (17) Q NOW, BASED ON THE RECOMMENDED PLAN OF (18) ACTION THAT WAS ADOPTED IN NOVEMBER OF 1969 IN WHICH (20) SO. (21) Q ALL RIGHT. AND WHAT WAS THE PURPOSE OF (19) YOU TOOK AS YOUR MARCHING ORDERS, DID YOU, AFTER YOU (22) PREPARING THIS, SIR? (23) AI WAS PLANNING A TRIP INTO CANADA TO (20) ACQUAINTED YOURSELF WITH THE JOB THAT YOU HAD IN Transwestern v. Monsanto Page 2086 to Page 2090 WATER PCB-SD0000075903 BSA Trial Transcript [December 8,1993] XMAX(IO) (21) FRONT OF YOU, COME UP WITH YOUR OWN RECOMMENDATIONS (22) FOR ACTION BY THE CMC? (23) AYES. (24) Q OKAY. AND, AGAIN, THE CMC IS WHAT GROUP (25) IN CORPORATE MANAGEMENT OF MONSANTO? (26) A ITS - IT CONSISTS OF THE PRESIDENT OF (27) THE COMPANY PLUS THE KEY VICE-PRESIDENTS OF THE MANY (28) DEPARTMENTS IN THE COMPANY. (22) OF APRIL OF 1970. (23) Q AND WERE THERE CERTAIN PRODUCTS THAT WERE (24) ABOUT TO BE DEALT WITH IN TERMS OF THEIR CONTINUANCE? (25) A OH, YES. (26) THAT WAS PART OF THE RECOMMENDATION HERE, (27) YES. . (28) Q OKAY. AND YOU GO THROUGH SOME OBJECTIVES Page 2091 (1) AND IT'S A COMMITTEE THAT ESTABLISHES (2) COMPANY POLICY AND PROGRAMS. (3) Q OKAY. AND IF YOU WOULD, SIR, WOULD YOU (4) TURN TO TRANSWESTERN 135. (5) ITS A BLUE ONE. (6) I'M SORRY. " (7) AI HAVE IT. (8) Q AND CAN YOU IDENTIFY THIS FOR US, SIR? (9) A THIS IS A COPY OF A MANAGEMENT PLAN (10) TRANSMITTED BY A COVER MEMORANDUM TO INDIVIDUALS IN (11) MONSANTO WHO WERE MANAGING THE PCB BUSINESS. (12) AND THIS PLAN WAS DEVELOPED BY ME. (13) DATED APRIL 7,1970. , (14) Q AND THIS WAS A DRAFT PLAN AT THAT POINT? (15) AYES. (16) Q OKAY. AND DID YOU SOLICIT THE INPUT OF (17) OTHER INDIVIDUALS THAT HAD BEEN DEALING WITH THE PCB (18) ISSUE? (19) A OH, YES. (20) Q ALL RIGHT. WHOM DID YOU CONTACT TO GET (21) INFO? (22) A OH, THERE WERE MANY, OF COURSE, (23) MR. WHEELER, DR. RICHARD, DR. FERRAR, THE MANAGING - (24) MANAGERS OF MANUFACTURING, MANAGERS OF ENGINEERING, (25) THE MARKETING PEOPLE LIKE MR. JOHNSON AND HIS (26) COUNTERPARTS IN THE OTHER BUSINESSES. Page 2093 (1) AND THEN YOU GO THROUGH A SPECIFIC ACTION PLAN FOR (2) EACH OF THESE OBJECTIVES; IS THAT RIGHT? (3) A THAT IS RIGHT. (4) Q AND AT THE END, ON PAGE 9 THERE, YOU TALK (5) ABOUT COST OF THIS PROGRAM? (6) AI DO. (7) Q AND YOU ESTIMATE IT WILL TAKE A BUDGET OF (8) WHAT? 0) A IT'S $675,000. (10) Q OKAY. AND THIS PARTICULAR DRAFT PROPOSAL (11) THAT YOU HAVE WAS REVIEWED BY MR. MASON, I BELIEVE (12) YOU INDICATED? (13) AYES. (14) HE WAS ONE OF THE RECIPIENTS. (15) Q AND MR. MASON'S RELATIONSHIP TO YOU WAS (16) WHAT IN TERMS OF MANAGEMENT? (17) A WELL, HE WAS MY BOSS' BOSS. (18) Q SO HE WAS MR. BERGEN'S BOSS? (19) AYES. (20) Q AND IF YOU TURN TO 137, PLEASE. (21) WHAT WAS MR. MASON'S INITIAL REACTION TO (22) YOUR PLAN? (23) A WELL, HE INDICATED THAT IT WAS OKAY AS A (24) WORKING DOCUMENT BUT A LITTLE BIT TOO MUCH DETAIL FOR (25) A TOP-LEVEL MANAGEMENT GROUP THAT WAS TRYING TO (26) UNDERSTAND THE PROBLEM IN A BROADER SENSE. (27) HE ALSO FELT THAT IT DIDN'T - HE DIDN'T (27) I CANT THINK OF ANY OTHER SPECIFICS AT (28) THE MOMENT, BUT IT DID REPRESENT ALL OF THE (28) READ IN IT THAT IT WAS AN AGGRESSIVE ENOUGH DIDN'T Page 2092 Page 2094 (1) DEPARTMENTS WHO WERE INVOLVED WITH MONSANTO WITH (2) PCB'S. (3) Q AS OF THAT TIME HAD CERTAIN USES OR (4) CERTAIN PRODUCTS ALREADY BEEN DISCONTINUED BY (5) MONSANTO? (6) A AS OF APRIL OF 1970? (7) Q I THINK I CAN HELP YOU OUT, IF YOU TURN (8) TO PAGE 2, RIGHT BEFORE "OBJECTIVES" THERE. (9) BEGINNING WITH THE WORD "USES." (10) A OH. YOUR QUESTION WAS, "HAD UP TO THAT (11) TIME HAD ANY PRODUCT BEEN DISCONTINUED?" (12) Q YES. (13) A THE ONLY APPLICATION I RECALL IS AN (1) DO ENOUGH QUICKLY. (2) Q OKAY. AND ONE OF THE THINGS I WANTED TO (3) ASK YOU ABOUT HERE ON PAGE 2, IF YOU TURN TO THAT, (4) PAGE G, SECTION G THERE ON THE TOP. (5) AYES. I SEE THAT. (6) Q ALL RIGHT. IT TALKS ABOUT - WHY DON'T (7) YOU JUST READ THAT FOR US. (8) THEN I WILL ASK YOU THE QUESTION. (9) A "EMPHASIZE THE STRONG REACTION WE (10) RECEIVED FROM GENERAL ELECTRIC WHEN WE INDICATED (11) INTENTION TO DISCONTINUE MANUFACTURING OF AROCLOR (12) 1254 AND 1260. (14) APPLICATION THAT HAD BEEN DEVELOPED BY THE DEPARTMENT (15) OF AGRICULTURE FOR THE USE OF PCB'S WITH SOME (13) 'TAKE THE OPPORTUNITY OF IMPRESSING ON (14) THE CMC THE NEED FOR BALANCE, THAT IS, ONE SAFETY (16) INSECTICIDES THAT WERE - WOULD BE USED ON (15) FACTOR AGAINST ANOTHER." SURFACES (17) TO DISCOURAGE OR TO ELIMINATE CRAWLING INSECTS. (18) AND WE HAD WRITTEN TO THE DEPARTMENT OF (19) AGRICULTURE SUGGESTING THAT THEY NOT SUPPORT THAT (16) Q AS OF THAT TIME, SIR, WERE THE REPORTS OF (17) PCB'S IN NATURE COMING OUT WITH FINDINGS IN THE (18) CHLORINATED AROCLORS, IN PARTICULAR 1254 AND 1260? (19) AYES. (20) USE. , (21) THAT IS THE ONLY ONE THAT I CAN RECALL AS (20) Q AND WAS THAT A MAJOR CONSIDERATION AS TO (21) DISCONTINUING PRODUCTS WITH THOSE Page 2090 to Page 2094 Transwestern v. Monsanto WATER PCB-SD0000075904 BSA Trial Transcript [December 8,1993] XMAX(11) HIGHER-CHLORINATED (21) AYES. (22) PCB'S IN THEM? (22) Q AND YOU JUST TALKED ABOUT THE PESTICIDE (23) A IT WAS. (24) Q AND WHAT WAS THE REACTION THAT YOU (23) EXTENDED AS ALREADY BEING COMPLETED? (24) AYES. (25) RECEIVED FROM GENERAL ELECTRIC? (25) Q AND CUTTING OILS, WHAT ARE "CUTTING (26) A OH, IT WAS ALMOST SHOCKING TO THEM THAT (26) OILS," SIR? (27) WE WOULD EVEN CONSIDER SUCH A BAN OR REFUSE (27) A THESE ARE OILS USED IN THE METALWORKING TO SELL (28) INDUSTRY WHEN THEY, FOR EXAMPLE, PUT A PIECE (28) THEM THE MATERIAL OF METAL Page 2095 Page 2097 (1) THEY FELT THAT THE USE OF THESE (1) IN A LATHE AND CUT ON IT TO END UP WITH A GIVEN (2) HIGHER-CHLORINATED PCB'S WERE VERY ESSENTIAL (2) SHAPE. OILS ARE POURED ON IT TO HELP THE TO CUTTING (3) MAINTAINING THE ELECTRICAL DISTRIBUTION (3) ACTION AND TO COOL THE METAL AND CARRY AWAY SYSTEM IN THE DRILL , (4) THIS COUNTRY, WHICH HAD BEEN RELYING AND (4) CUTTINGS. BUILT ON 40 (5) Q OKAY. AND COATINGS, WHAT ARE THEY? (5) YEARS OF PCB USE. (6) A "COATINGS" COVERS VARNISHES, LACQUERS, (6) AND THEY WERE VERY CONCERNED THAT THIS (7) PAINTS. (7) COUNTRY WOULD END UP WITH MANY BROWNOUT (8) Q AND THEN SEALANTS? AND BLACKOUT (9) A "SEALANTS," THAT COVERED THE CALKING (8) SITUATIONS THROUGHOUT THE COUNTRY AND THEY (10) MATERIALS AND ADHESIVES, THAT BROADER WERE CATEGORY. (9) ADAMANTLY AGAINST SUCH AN APPROACH BECAUSE (11) Q OKAY. AND THEN WE TALKED ABOUT SOME OF THEY ALSO (12) THE HYDRAULIC FLUIDS, ONE OF WHICH IS (10) WERE AFRAID THE TRANSFER TO A MINERAL OIL PYDRAUL-AC? SYSTEM (13) AYES. (11) WOULD EVENTUALLY RESULT IN FIRES AND (14) Q AND TURBINOL-153 IS NOT LISTED ANYWHERE EXPLOSIONS THAT (15) HERE, IS IT? (12) HADN'T BEEN EXPERIENCED WITH THE PCB'S. (16) A NO, IT DOESN'T FIT THESE CATEGORIES. (13) Q DID THE GOVERNMENT GET INVOLVED IN THIS (17) Q WHY IS THAT? (14) DISCUSSION? (18) A BECAUSE IT WAS UNDERSTOOD TO BE USED IN A (15) A EVENTUALLY, YES. (19) CONTROLLABLE CLOSED SYSTEM BY A (16) Q DID THE REACTION OF GENERAL ELECTRIC SOPHISTICATED (17) INFLUENCE MONSANTO'S DECISION WITH RESPECT (20) CUSTOMER IN A VERY IMPORTANT APPLICATION. TO 1254 (21) Q NAMELY TRANSMISSION OF - (18) AND 1260 AS IT WAS USED IN THE ELECTRICAL (22) A TRANSMISSION OF EXPLOSIVE GASES. (19) APPLICATION? (23) QALL RIGHT. IF YOU WOULD TURN TO 138. (20) A IT DID. (24) CAN YOU IDENTIFY THIS FOR US, PLEASE? (21) Q ALL RIGHT. NOW, IF YOU WOULD, PLEASE, (25) A THIS IS A COPY OF THE DOCUMENT FROM WHICH (22) TURN TO 145. (26) I ACTUALLY READ WHEN I MADE MY PRESENTATION (23) I'M SORRY, 141. MY MISTAKE. TO THE (24) DO YOU HAVE THAT, MR. PAPAGEORGE? (27) CMC IN APRIL. (25) AI HAVE IT, YES. (28) Q ALL RIGHT. SO YOU ACTUALLY MADE THE* 1 11 (26) Q AND IPS ENTITLED "OUTLINE FOR CMC Page 2098 (27) PRESENTATION"? (1) PRESENTATION TO THE CMC? (28) A IT IS. (2) A I DID. Page 2096 (3) Q TURN TO PAGE 3, IF YOU WOULD, PLEASE. (1) Q ALL RIGHT. AND WERE YOU THE AUTHOR OF (4) AI HAVE IT. (2) THAT? (5) Q ALL RIGHT. AND THIS PRESENTATION (3) AYES. (6) INCLUDED KIND OF A STATUS REPORT OF WHERE (4) Q AND THE PURPOSE OF THIS OUTLINE, SIR, IS THINGS WERE (5) WHAT? (7) ON SCIENCE AND OTHER AREAS? (6) A THIS WAS AN ATTEMPT TO PUT TOGETHER THE (8) A IT DID. (7) INFORMATION THAT WAS GOING TO BE GIVEN TO THE (9) Q AND YOU TALK ABOUT MEETING WITH CMC AT (10) DR. RISEBROUGH. (8) A MEETING SCHEDULED LATER ON IN APRIL. (11) DO YOU SEE THAT? (9) Q ALL RIGHT. AND DID YOU SET FORTH A (12) AYES. (10) SCHEDULE FOR DISCONTINUANCE OF CERTAIN (13) Q CAN YOU - THAT WAS - WOULD HAVE BEEN PRODUCTS THAT (14) MARCH OF 1970? (11) YOU WERE RECOMMENDING AS PART OF THIS (15) A'70, YES. OUTLINE? (16) Q SO HE WAS ONE OF THE OTHER SCIENTISTS YOU (12) AYES. (17) SAW IN ADDITION TO DR. WIDMARK AND OTHERS? (13) Q ALL RIGHT. AND THAT IS IN THE - WHERE (18) AYES, UH-HUH. (14) IN THIS MEMO, AT THE END OR ALMOST TO THE (19) Q AND DR. RISEBROUGH WAS THE DOCTOR THAT END? (15) AYES. (20) MADE THE FINDINGS RELATIVE TO THE PEREGRINE FALCONS (16) THAT'S - I THINK IT'S DOUBLE ZERO 175. (21) WE DISCUSSED YESTERDAY? (17) Q DO YOU HAVE IT? (22) A THAT IS ONE OF THE WILD BIRDS HE STUDIED, (18) I FOUND IT. THANKS. (23) YES. (19) IS THAT THE SCHEDULE WITH TARGET DATES (24) Q AND TELL US ABOUT THE MEETING YOU HAD (20) THAT YOU RECOMMENDED? (25) WITH HIM IN MARCH? Transwestern v. Monsanto Page 2094 to Page 2098 WATER PCB-SD0000075905 bsa Trial Transcript [December 8,1993] xmaxozj (26) A WELL, WE WANTED TO MEET WITH (27) DR. RISEBROUGH AND DR. OLCUTT TO GET A MORE PERSONAL (28) FEEL OF WHAT HE FOUND, WHAT HIS WORK CONSISTED OF,, Page 2099 (1) WHAT HIS PLANS WERE FOR FURTHER WORK, WHAT HIS (2) OPINIONS WERE REGARDING PCB'S AND THE POSSIBLE (3) EFFECTS ON THE ENVIRONMENT. (4) IT WAS A GOOD CONVERSATION, AS FAR AS I (5) WAS CONCERNED. (6) I FOUND THAT BOTH PARTIES WERE FREE TO (7) EXCHANGE INFORMATION. (8) THAT IS ABOUT ALL 1 REMEMBER. (9) IT WAS A GOOD MEETING IS ALL I RECALL. (10) Q ALL RIGHT. NOW, COULD YOU TURN TO, THIS (11) WOULD BE NUMBER 9536. (12) AI HAVE IT. (13) Q AND I WOULD LIKE YOU TO READ THE TOP (14) PARAGRAPH, IF YOU WOULD, PLEASE. (15) A "SUCCESSFUL CONTROL TO PREVENT (16) CONTAMINATION IS POSSIBLE IN SYSTEMS IN WHICH (17) AROCLORS ARE SEALED. WE ARE WORKING VERY CLOSELY (18) WITH OUR CUSTOMERS TO EDUCATE AND MOTIVATE THEM AND (19) HAVE OFFERED TECHNICAL ASSISTANCE ON THEIR DISPOSAL (20) AND EFFLUENT PROBLEMS." (21) Q THE REFERENCE THERE THAT YOU HAVE IN (22) WHICH AROCLORS ARE SEALED, YOU ARE TALKING ABOUTA (23) CONTROLLED APPLICATION. IS THAT ANOTHER WAY TO SAY (24) THAT? (25) AYES. (26) Q HOW DID YOUR PRESENTATION TO THE CMC GO (27) IN APRIL OF 1970? (28) A WELL, THEY WERE APPRECIATIVE OF THE Page 2100 (1) INTENT HERE IN TERMS OF GETTING OUT OF SOME OF THE (2) BUSINESSES. (3) BUT THEY WERE VERY INTERESTED IN SPEEDING (4) UP THE PROGRAM, THE DATES THAT I HAD SHOWN IN THAT (5) PREVIOUS CHART, FOR EXAMPLE. (6) THEY WANTED TO DO IT SOONER. (7) SO AS I REMEMBER, THEY ASKED THOSE OF US (8) INVOLVED WITH IT TO GO BACK TO THE DRAWING BOARD, SO (9) TO SPEAK, AND COME UP WITH A FASTER PROGRAM. (10) Q LETS TAKE A LOOK AT 144-A, PLEASE. (11) THE COURT: BEFORE WE DO THAT, MR. PREUSS, WE (12) WILL TAKE THE MORNING BREAK. (13) LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, WE WILL BE IN (14) RECESS UNTIL 11 O'CLOCK. (15) PLEASE DO RETURN AT THAT TIME SO WE CAN (16) RESUME. (17) (RECESS.) (18) THE COURT: AND RESUMING. GO AHEAD, (19) MR. PREUSS. (20) MR. PREUSS: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. (21) Q WE WERE AT EXHIBIT 144-A? (22) AI HAVE IT. (23) Q THESE ARE THE MINUTES OF THE CMC APRIL (24) 28TH, 1978 MEETING FOLLOWING YOUR PRESENTATION? (25) AYES. (26) Q WHAT DID THE CMC MINUTES REFLECT IN THE (27) BOTTOM PARAGRAPH CONCERNING THE DIVISION EFFORT SO (28) FAR? '`DIVISION111 I1S1A REFERENCE TO THE ORGANIC (1) DIVISION? Page 2101 (2) AYES. (3) "DIVISION HAS MAINTAINED AN AGGRESSIVE (4) PROGRAM OF CUSTOMER EDUCATION AND COOPERATIVE EFFORTS (5) WITH RESEARCH ORGANIZATIONS, GOVERNMENTAL AGENCIES (6) AND WILD FIRE GROUPS TO IDENTIFY THE SCOPE OF THE (7) PROBLEM, ELIMINATE DISCHARGES, IMPROVE ANALYTICAL (8) METHODS AND CONDUCT TOXICITY STUDIES." (9) Q ALL RIGHT. IF YOU TURN TO THE SECOND (10) PAGE, PLEASE. (11) THE FIRST UNDERLINED AT THE TOP, IF YOU (12) WOULD READ THAT. (13) A "CONCERNED AGENCIES AND GROUPS ARE (14) APPRECIATIVE OF OUR EFFORTS." (15) Q AND THEN IF YOU WOULD GO DOWN TO THE (16) PROGRAM ON DISCHARGES. (17) IT'S THE NEXT HIGHLIGHTING THERE. (18) WOULD YOU READ THAT? (19) A "A PROGRAM HAS BEEN ESTABLISHED TO (20) CURTAIL DISCHARGES FROM OUR PLANTS AND LEVELS HAVE (21) ALREADY BEEN REDUCED SIGNIFICANTLY." ` (22) SHOULD I READ THE REMAINDER? (23) Q YES. (24) A "WE ARE TARGETED TO REACH" - (25) Q ITS HARD TO READ. (26) BUT DO YOU RECALL WHAT IT WAS? (27) A "50 PARTS PER BILLION BY YEAR END WITH AN (28) ULTIMATE TARGET OF 10 PARTS PER BILLION." Page 2102 (1) Q WERE THOSE GOALS MET BY MONSANTO, SIR? (2) AYES. (3) Q SO YOU WERE ABLE TO MEET THE 50 PARTS PER (4) BILLION BY THE END OF THE YEAR AND ULTIMATELY 10 . (5) PARTS PER BILLION? (6) A CORRECT. (7) Q AND THE NEXT PARAGRAPH, HAD SALES BEEN (8) TERMINATED ON SOME PRODUCTS? (9) A YES, THEY WERE. (10) SHOULD I READ THAT? (11) Q YES, PLEASE. (12) A "SALES ARE BEING TERMINATED TO A NUMBER (13) OF INDUSTRIAL USERS WHERE THERE ARE INADEQUATE (14) POSSIBILITIES OF CONTROL." (15) Q ALL RIGHT. AND THEN GOING DOWN TO THE (16) CONCLUSION SECTION, IF YOU WOULD. (17) THERE IS A REFERENCE THAT MORE (18) AFFIRMATIVE ACTION MUST BE TAKEN AND I THINK YOU WERE (19) REQUESTED OR READ THE OTHER DAY THAT A CRASH BASIS (20) SHOULD BE THE APPROACH TO THE NCR APPLICATION WITH (21) 1242, CORRECT? (22) AYES. (23) Q ALL RIGHT. AND THEN DID YOU GET (24) DIRECTION AS TO WHEN TO REPORT BACK? (25) THAT IS THE LAST PARAGRAPH. (26) A YES, THE LAST PARAGRAPH. (27) THE DIVISION IS TO REPORT ITS SPECIFIC (28) ANSWERS TO THE COMMITTEE BY JUNE 1. Page 2103 Page 2098 to Page 2103 Transwestern v. Monsanto WATER PCB-SD0000075906 BSA Trial Transcript [December 8,1993] XMAX(13) (1) Q AND DID THE DIVISION MEET THAT DEADLINE? (3) IT WILL BE CHANGED, UH-HUH. (2) A YES, THEY DID. (3) Q ALL RIGHT. TAKE A LOOK AT 154, PLEASE. (4) AND CAN YOU IDENTIFY THIS DOCUMENT FOR (5) US, SIR? (4) Q OKAY. ALL RIGHT. COULD YOU TAKE A LOOK (5) AT 157, PLEASE, SIR. (6) TELL US WHAT THAT DOCUMENT IS. (7) A THIS IS A MONSANTO MEMORANDUM AUTHORED BY (6) A THIS IS A COPY OF A MONSANTO MEMORANDUM (8) MR. JOHN EHLERS ADDRESSED TO MR. MINCKLER, (7) PREPARED BY MR. JOHN MASON ADDRESSED TO MR. (9) MR. HARRIS, MR. KELLY, MR. SMITH. BERGEN (10) IT'S A COPY OF THE MINUTES OF THE MEETING (8) AND MR. SPRINGGATE WITH A CARBON COPY TO ME. (11) OF MAY 11 AT WHICH MR. MASON GAVE HIS (9) IT'S DATED MAY 11,1970. PRESENTATION. (10) AND ATTACHED TO THAT MEMORANDUM ARE (12) Q OKAY. AND THE DEADLINE, AS WE DISCUSSED, (11) COPIES OF TRANSPARENCIES USED BY MR. MASON (13) WAS JUNE 1. AT A CMC (14) SO THEY MADE IT BEFORE THEN? (12) MEETING. (15) A CORRECT. (13) Q ALL RIGHT. AND WHO MADE THE (16) Q OKAY. AND DOES THIS GIVE AN UPDATE, (14) PRESENTATION? (17) THEN, OF THE ACTION PLAN THAT HAD (15) A MR. MASON. PREVIOUSLY BEEN (16) Q ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE HAVE TALKED A (18) ADOPTED IN APRIL? (17) LOT ABOUT IN HERE, SIR, IS THE (19) A NO. CHROMATOGRAPHS. (18) DO YOU RECALL THOSE DISCUSSIONS? (20) THIS IS THE ATTEMPT TO SPEED UP THE (21) PROGRAM THAT HAD BEEN DISCUSSED AND (19) AYES. (20) Q IF YOU WOULD TURN TO 085288. PROPOSED IN (22) APRIL. (21) I DON'T THINK WE HAVE EVER SEEN ONE OF (23) Q ALL RIGHT. AND THE FIRST ITEM THERE, I (22) THESE. (23) IS THIS A PHOTOCOPY OF A SAMPLE (24) WOULD LIKE TO GO THROUGH THOSE WITH YOU, SIR (24) CHROMATOGRAPH? (25) IT SAYS, "DISCONTINUE SALE OF 1242 TO NCR (25) AYES. . (26) THIS IS A COPY OF THE CHART THAT THE (26) AND REPLACE WITH HB-40 IN UK AND MIBP IN U.S.A. WITH (27) INSTRUMENT GENERATES AS IT LOOKS AT THE (27) DEADLINES IN JULY 1 OF '70 AND JANUARY 30, '71,1 11 SAMPLE. (28) Q ALL RIGHT. AND YOU TALKED ABOUT PEAKS. (28) RESPECTIVELY." " Page 2106 Page 2104 (1) NOW, WHAT WERE HB-40 AND MIBP? (1) CAN YOU JUST TAKE A POINTER THERE AND (2) A HB-40 IS A DESIGNATION FOR HYDROGENATED (2) SHOW US WHAT IS MEANT BY THE "PEAK" AND THE (3) BIPHENYL THAT MONSANTO MADE AND MIBP IS NUMBER MONO (3) UNDERNEATH IT. (4) ISOPROPYL BIPHENYL, AS BEST I REMEMBER. (4) A THE PEAKS ARE, OF COURSE, THE MOUNTAIN (5) ISOBUTYL BIPHENYL. (5) TOPS, IF YOU WILL, THE TOP OF EACH OF THESE (6) I'M SORRY. LINES. (6) THE NUMBERS YOU SEE THERE REPRESENT THE (7) Q WERE THESE REPLACEMENT PRODUCTS FOR THE (8) 1242 THAT WERE CONSIDERED? (7) NUMBER OF CHLORINES PER BIPHENYL. (9) A YES, THEY HAD NO CHLORINE IN THEM. (8) Q SO IF THERE IS A TWO AND A THREE AND A (10) Q AND THE NEXT ONE SAYS WHAT, SIR? (9) THREE AND A FOUR, THOSE ARE THE - WHAT YOU (11) A ''CLOSE THE LOOP ON HEAT TRANSFER ARE (10) REFERRING TO? (12) APPLICATIONS WHERE FIRE RESISTANCE IS VITAL AND (11) A YES. ALL OF THOSE NUMBERS THERE REFER TO (13) REPLACE WITH ALTERNATES IN OTHER CASES." (12) THE NUMBER OF CHLORINES THAT THAT PEAK REPRESENTS. (14) Q WHAT DOES THE TERM "CLOSE THE LOOP" MEAN, (15) SIR? (13) Q OKAY. AND HOW DOES THE LABORATORY (16) A THAT IS MR. MASON'S EXPRESSION THAT HE (14) ANALYST KNOW THAT? (17) USED TO DESCRIBE A SYSTEM OF CONTROL OF THE (15) A HE KNOWS THAT BY THE MASS SPECTROMETER (18) PCB-CONTAINING PRODUCT FROM THE POINT OF (16) WHICH HAS TOLD HIM THAT THIS WAS SO MUCH, SO MANUFACTURE, ' THE (19) SHIPPING, USE AND FINAL DISPOSAL, WHEN IT (17) THREE AND FOUR CATEGORIES AND THE SINGLE WOULD NO FOUR AND SO (20) LONGER BE USEFUL. (18) ON, ARE IDENTIFIED IN THAT FASHION. (21) AND HE WOULD DESCRIBE ALL OF THAT AS A (19) Q AND ARE THESE DIAGRAMS SOMETIMES (22) LOOP. REFERRED (23) Q OKAY. AND THE NEXT ITEM? (20) TO AS A FINGERPRINT OR A PROFILE? (24) A "REPLACE ALL NON-BIODEGRADABLE (21) AYES. (22) Q ALL RIGHT. AN DOES EACH PCB HAVE ITS OWN (25) CHLORINATED BIPHENYLS IN HYDRAULIC APPLICATIONS. (23) FINGERPRINT OR PROFILE? (26) "COMPLETE 20 PERCENT OF THEM BY AUGUST (24) AYES. (27) 1ST, 1970. (25) EACH COMMERCIAL MIXTURE OF PCB'S HAS WHAT (28) "COMPLETE 40 PERCENT BY NOVEMBER 1ST, (26) WE CALL THE FINGERPRINT. (27) Q AND IF YOU ARE LOOKING AT RESIDUES IN (28) NATURE, IT COULD HAVE OTHER LITTLE THINGS THAT GET IN Page 2105 (1) THE WAY, RIGHT? (2) A WELL, YES. Transwestern v. Monsanto Page 2103 to Page 2106 WATER PCB-SD0000075907 BSA Trial Transcript [December 8,1993] XMAX(14) Page 2107 (1) 1970. (2) "COMPLETE A HUNDRED PERCENT DECEMBER 30, (3) 1970." (4) Q AND THE NEXT TWO REFER TO THE TRANSFORMER (5) AND CAPACITOR APPLICATIONS IN THE ELECTRICAL (6) INDUSTRY? (7) A THEY DO. (8) Q AND THE LAST ONE? (9) A "TERMINATE SALES OF ALL NON-BIODEGRADABLE (10) CHLORINATED BIPHENYLS TO VARIOUS NON-CONTROLLABLE END (11) USES. (12) "COMPLETE BY AUGUST 30,1970." (13) Q AND WHERE DOES TURBINOL-153 FIT? Page 2109 (1) MR. TALLON: OBJECTION, FOUNDATION. (2) THE COURT: LAY SOME FOUNDATION, MR. PREUSS. (3) Q BY MR. PREUSS: ARE YOU AWARE OF SOME (4) CONTACT AS PART OF YOUR JOB RESPONSIBILITIES AS (5) MANAGER OF ENVIRONMENTAL CONTROL, SIR, CONTACT (6) BETWEEN THE GOVERNMENT OF BRITAIN AND MONSANTO (7) REPRESENTATIVES RELATIVE TO THE USE OF CARBONLESS (8) CARBON PAPER IN ENGLAND? (9) AI AM. (10) Q HOW DID YOU GAIN THAT INFORMATION? (11) A THAT IS PART OF MY JOB TO KNOW THESE KIND (12) OF THINGS. (14) A IT DOESN'T FIT ANY OF THESE. (15) Q WHY IS THAT? (16) A WELL, IT'S OBVIOUSLY NOT IN ELECTRICAL (17) USE. (18) IT HAS NOTHING DO WITH NCR PAPER. (19) IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH TRANSFER, HEAT (20) TRANSFER. (21) SO - AND IT'S A CONTROLLABLE USE. SO (22) EVEN THE BOTTOM ONE DOESN'T FIT. (23) Q OKAY. THEN, AGAIN, ON THE LAST PARAGRAPH (24) OF THAT PAGE IT TALKS ABOUT A FOLLOW-UP WITH CMC (13) I RELIED ON THE MONSANTO REPRESENTATIVES (14) IN EUROPE, ENGLAND, SPECIFICALLY, TO KEEP ME (15) INFORMED. (16) Q AND WAS THAT INFORMATION NECESSARY FOR (17) YOU IN ORDER TO PLAN YOUR ACTIVITIES AND TAKE ACTION (18) ON INFORMATION THAT YOU RECEIVED? (19) A OH, I FELT IT VERY IMPORTANT, YES. (20) Q WHAT WAS THE NATURE OF THAT CONTACT, (21) SIR? (22) MR. TALLON: OBJECTION, CALLS FOR A HEARSAY (23) RESPONSE. (25) BEING DIRECTED? (26) AYES. (27) Q ALL RIGHT. AND THE LAST PAGE TALKS ABOUT (24) THE COURT: ARE YOU ASKING WHO DID HE TALK (25) WITH? (26) MR. PREUSS: I'M ASKING WHAT INFORMATION HE (28) SOME CAPITAL EXPENDITURE TO CARRY OUT THIS (27) OBTAINED AND HOW WAS THE SITUATION HANDLED. PROGRAM? (28) I'M NOT GOING FOR THE TRUTH OF THE 1 11 (1) A IT DOES. Page 2108 (1) MATTER. Page 2110 (2) Q AND WHAT AMOUNT, SIR? (3) A $3,585,000. (4) Q WOULD YOU TAKE A LOOK, PLEASE, AT EXHIBIT (5) 160. (2) THE COURT: IS THERE A NON-HEARSAY PURPOSE, (3) MR. PREUSS, OR AN EXCEPTION? (4) MR. PREUSS: IT'S NON-HEARSAY, YOUR HONOR. (5) THE COURT: BECAUSE? (6) AI HAVE IT. (7) Q DO YOU REMEMBER BEING QUESTIONED ON THIS (6) MR. PREUSS: IT'S WHAT INFORMATION HE HAS AND (7) HOW HE ACTS UPON THAT INFORMATION. (8) MEMO YESTERDAY, I GUESS IT WAS? (8) THE COURT: ITS PURPOSE IS TO SHOW MONSANTO'S (9) AI DO. (10) Q AND IF YOU COULD TURN TO THE PARAGRAPH (11) DEALING WITH NCR. (12) FIRST OF ALL, IS THIS - WHY DON'T YOU (13) IDENTIFY THE MEMO FOR US, JUST BRIEFLY. (9) ACTIONS NOT THE TRUTH OF THE INFORMATION ITSELF? (10) MR. PREUSS: THAT'S CORRECT. (11) THE COURT: THE OBJECTION IS OVERRULED. (12) YOU MAY ANSWER. (14) A IT'S A MEMORANDUM DATED MAY 27,1970, (13) THE WITNESS: I FORGOT THE QUESTION. (15) AUTHORED BY ME, ADDRESSED TO J, R. DURLAND IN (14) THE COURT: WHAT DID YOU LEARN IN CONNECTION TOKYO. (16) Q WOULD YOU READ THE PARAGRAPH THIRD UP (15) WITH THE BRITISH GOVERNMENT RESPONSES? (16) THE WITNESS: THANK YOU. (17) FROM THE BOTTOM BEGINNING WITH "NCR"? (18) A "NCR HAS SATISFACTORILY DEMONSTRATED (19) HB-40 AS AN ACCEPTABLE SUBSTITUTE FOR (17) THE BRITISH GOVERNMENT REQUESTED FROM (18) MONSANTO INFORMATION REGARDING WHO IN ENGLAND WAS AROCLOR 1242 IN (20) ITS EUROPEAN APPLICATION AND WE ARE (19) INVOLVED WITH THE NCR-TYPE PAPER COATING AND WHAT OPTIMISTIC THE (21) MONO-ISOPROPYL BIPHENYL (MIBP) WILL BE (20) TYPE OF PCB THEY WERE USING AND HOW MUCH. (21) Q BY MR. PREUSS: WHAT DID MONSANTO DO? ACCEPTABLE FOR (22) A MONSANTO SAID, "WE UNDERSTAND WHY YOU (22) THE U.S. APPLICATION." (23) Q ALL RIGHT. AND I BELIEVE YOU WERE (24) QUESTIONED, MR. PAPAGEORGE, ABOUT SOME CONTACT (25) BETWEEN MONSANTO REPRESENTATIVES IN (23) NEED THIS. BUT AT PRESENT WE ARE NOT IN THE POSITION (24) TO DIVULGE THIS INFORMATION WITHOUT THE APPROVAL OF (25) OUR CUSTOMER. LONDON AND THE (26) BRITISH GOVERNMENT CONCERNING NCR AND ITS (27) APPLICATION. (28) COULD YOU TELL US THAT STORY, SIR. (26) "WE WILL CONTACT THE CUSTOMER AND MENTION (27) THIS TO HIM AND GET - TRY TO GET THE APPROVAL." (28) Q WAS THAT OBTAINED? Page 2107 to Page 2110 Transwestern v. Monsanto WATER PCB-SD0000075908 BSA Trial Transcript [December 8,1993] XMAX(IS) Page 2111 (1) A THE CUSTOMER SAID, "WELL, WE DON'T (1) AYES. Page 2113 (2) WANP(3) MR.TALLON: OBJECTION AS TO WHAT THE CUSTOMER (4) SAID. (5) THE COURT: YOU SHOULD DIRECT YOUR INQUIRY, (2) Q COULD YOU EXPLAIN AGAIN HOW IT HAD BEEN (3) USED PREVIOUSLY IN THE FOOD INDUSTRY? (4) A IT WAS USED IN THE HEATING SYSTEMS (5) INVOLVED WITH HUMAN FOOD, REALLY, SUCH THINGS AS (6) MR. PREUSS, TO SHOW THE BASIS FOR MONSANTO ACTIONS. (6) POTATO CHIPS, AND WE DECIDED THAT THAWAS TOO RISKY (7) REFINE YOUR QUESTION, PLEASE. (8) Q BY MR. PREUSS: DID YOU RECEIVE SOME (9) INFORMATION FROM THE CUSTOMER? (7) IN SPITE OF THE SAFETY FEATURES OF FIRES AND (8) EXPLOSIONS. (9) WE DIDN'T WANT TO HAVE FOOD THAT CLOSE TO (10) AYES. (11) Q ALL RIGHT. AND WAS THE SITUATION (12) SATISFACTORILY RESOLVED? (10) PCB'S. (11) SO WE TERMINATED. (12) Q AND THIS, AGAIN, IS WHAT I THINK YOU (13) AYES. (14) Q NOW, WHAT IS YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF HOW? (13) EXPLAINED YESTERDAY, THAT THE PCB'S ARE HEATED AT A (15) A THE CUSTOMER INFORMED THE PROPER (16) AUTHORITIES IN ENGLAND ITSELF. (17) IT DID NOT INVOLVE MONSANTO. (18) Q ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, SIR. (19) COULD YOU TAKE A LOOK AT 178, SIR. (14) DISTANT POINT AND TRANSFERRED AROUND A COOKING (15) VESSEL, IF YOU WILL? (16) A RIGHT, TO HEAT THE COOKING OIL IN WHICH (17) THE CHEMICALS ARE FRIED, FOR EXAMPLE. (20) AI HAVE IT. (21) Q COULD YOU IDENTIFY THIS FOR US, SIR. (22) A THIS IS A COPY OF THE MINUTES OF A (23) MEETING OF THE CORPORATE MANAGEMENT (18) Q AND IT TALKS ABOUT AN INSEPARATION (19) PROJECT AT THE BOTTOM THERE, FOR EXAMPLE, ON NUMBER (20) 3? COMMITTEE THAT (21) AYES. (24) WAS HELD IN SEPTEMBER OF 1970. (25) Q SO, AGAIN, THIS WOULD BE A FOLLOW-UP TO (26) THE ONE WE JUST DISCUSSED WHERE THE REPORT (22) Q WAS THAT ULTIMATELY ACCOMPLISHED BY (23) MONSANTO? (24) A IT WAS. BACK WAS (27) DIRECTED FOR SEPTEMBER? (25) Q DO YOU RECALL WHEN THAT WAS ACCOMPLISHED? (28) AYES. (26) A IT WAS IN WORKING ORDER, AS I RECALL, Page 2112 (1) Q AND THEN WHO MADE THE PRESENTATION IN (27) ABOUTTHE MIDDLE OF 1971. (28) Q OKAY. AND WAS THAT AVAILABLE TO 1 11 (2) SEPTEMBER OF 1970? (3) A JOHN MASON. (4) Q ALL RIGHT. AND THE PURPOSE OF THIS (5) MEETING WITH JOHN MASON AND THE CMC WAS Page 2114 (1) CUSTOMERS UPON REQUEST? (2) A OH, YES. (3) Q OKAY. WHAT? (6) A TO REVIEW WITH THE CMC THE STATUS OF THE (4) A THAT SERVICE WAS AVAILABLE BEFORE THE (5) INCINERATOR WAS EVEN CONSTRUCTED. (7) PROGRAM THAT THE CMC HAD APPROVED BACK IN (6) WE WOULD RECEIVE MATERIAL AND STOCKPILE MAY OF (8) 1970. (9) Q ALL RIGHT. AND DO THESE MINUTES REFLECT (7) IT, WAITING FOR THE DAY WHEN WE COULD DESTROY IT. (8) Q OKAY. NUMBER FIVE, COULD YOU READ THAT (10) PROGRESS UNDER EACH OF THE ACTION STEPS (9) FOR US, PLEASE. ADOPTED BY (11) THE CMC IN THE EARLIER MINUTES WE HAD DISCUSSED? (12) A IT DOES. (13) Q ALL RIGHT. THE SECOND PAGE, IF YOU (14) WOULD, PLEASE, SIR. (10) A "CLOSE THE LOOP ON NON-BIODEGRADABLE (11) CHLORINATED BIPHENYLS AND CAPACITOR AND TRANSFORMER (12) APPLICATIONS." (13) Q THAT IS CORRECT, IN THE FIRST SUBHEADING (14) THERE? (15) ALL RIGHT. JUST TAKE A LOOK AT 1242 IN (15) A "THIS USAGE BY RESPONSIBLE INDUSTRIES IS (16) THE NCR APPLICATION. (17) UK HAD ALREADY MET ITS DEADLINE? (16) NECESSARY FOR CONTINUATION OF PUBLIC POWER (17) OPERATIONS." (18) A IT DID. (19) Q AND IT LOOKED LIKE IN THE U.S. THE TARGET (20) DATE WOULD ALSO BE MET? (21) AYES. (22) Q WAS IT MET AS FAR AS YOU KNOW? (18) Q WAS THAT A REFLECTION OF BALANCING THE (19) SAFETY FACTORS THAT MR. MASON REFERRED TO IN HIS (20) EARLIER MEMO? (21) A IT IS. (23) AYES. (24) Q ALL RIGHT. AND NUMBER 3 TALKS ABOUT THE (22) IT'S A GOOD EXAMPLE. (23) Q AND IN THE SUMMARY THERE HAD SALES BEEN (25) HEAT-TRANSFER APPLICATIONS? (24) REDUCED BY THE TERMINATION OF THESE (26) AYES. (27) Q AND USE FOR FOOD APPLICATIONS HAS BEEN (28) DISCONTINUED. PRODUCTS THAT ARE (25) DISCUSSED IN THIS MEMO? (26) AYES. (27) Q BY HOW MANY POUNDS? (28) A IT SHOWED 23.6 MILLION POUNDS. Transwestern v. Monsanto Page 2111 to Page 2114 WATER PCB-SD0000075909 BSA Trial Transcript [December 8,1993] XMAX(16) Page 2115 Page 2117 (1) Q AND IF YOU WOULD TURN TO THE CONCLUSION (1) A CAPACITORS. (2) SECTION. (2) Q COULD YOU TURN TO 390, 86390, THE (3) AI HAVE IT. (3) INTERNATIONAL SECTION? (4) Q AND COULD YOU READ THAT FOR US, PLEASE. (4) A I HAVE IT. , (5) A THE PRESIDENT COMMENDED THE DIVISION FOR (5) Q OKAY. AND COULD YOU TELL US WHAT WAS (6) THE EXCELLENT PROGRESS MADE ON ITS PROGRAM. (6) HAPPENING OUTSIDE OF THE U.S. ON - WITH (7) THE THREE-MONTHS EXTENSION REQUESTED FOR RESPECT TO (8) PHASING OUT OF PRODUCTS IN HYDRAULIC FLUIDS (7) PCB'S AND THEIR CONTROL, SIR? WAS (8) A AT THAT POINT IN TIME? (9) APPROVED WITH THE CAUTION THAT THE DIVISION (9) Q YES, PLEASE. CONTINUE (10) A THE SCANDINAVIAN COUNTRIES WERE (10) TO EXERT PRESSURE TO MOVE THIS PROGRAM AS (11) CONSIDERING THE - EITHER THE TIGHT CONTROL OF FAST AS THE (11) POSSIBLE. FURTHER PROGRESS ON THE PROGRAM (12) USE OF PCB'S OR POSSIBLY EVEN BLOCK THE USE SHOULD BE OF PCB'S. (12) REVIEWED WITH THE COMMITTEE THE FIRST (13) IN CONTINENTAL EUROPE THERE WAS AN QUARTER OF (14) INCREASING INTEREST IN PCB'S AND THE (13) 1971." ENVIRONMENT. (14) Q OKAY. AND WAS IT REVIEWED IN SEPTEMBER (15) AND THE EUROPEAN PRODUCERS WERE STARTING (15) OF'71? (16) TO APPRECIATE THE PROBLEM AND TAKING THEIR (16) A IN MARCH, MARCH OF 71. (17) INDEPENDENT ACTIONS. (17) Q IN THE FIRST QUARTER OF '71, MY MISTAKE? (18) Q WERE MONSANTO REPRESENTATIVES MEETING (18) AYES. (19) Q OKAY. IF YOU WOULD, PLEASE, TURN TO (19) WITH THEIR COUNTERPARTS IN EUROPE AND ELSEWHERE? (20) TRANSWESTERN 193. (20) AYES. (21) AI HAVE IT. (21) Q HOW ABOUT MONSANTO'S REPRESENTATIVES IN (22) Q AND COULD YOU IDENTIFY THIS FOR US, (22) UK, WERE THEY FOLLOWING THE PLAN ADOPTED (23) PLEASE. HERE? (24) A THIS IS A COPY OF A NOTE THAT I MADE TO (23) A YES, THEY WERE. (25) MYSELF WHICH INCLUDED OR ATTACHED TO IT WERE (24) THEY WERE FOLLOWING EXACTLY THE SAME COPIES (25) PROGRAM. (26) OF TRANSPARENCIES USED BY MR. MASON AT A (26) Q AND IF YOU TURN TO 086397, PLEASE. REPORT TO (27) IT TALKS ABOUT TURBINOL-153 SALES? (27) THE CMC IN MARCH OF 1971. (28) AYES. 1 11 (28) Q AND MR. MASON, THEN, MADE THE Page 2118 Page 2116 (1) PRESENTATION AGAIN? (1) Q AND PROJECTING SALES OF 400,000 POUNDS IN (2) 1971? (2) AYES. . (3) AYES. (3) Q ALL RIGHT. I TAKE IT HE CONSULTED WITH (4) Q AND WAS TEXAS EASTERN THE CUSTOMER THAT (4) YOU BEFOREHAND? (5) WAS PURCHASING THE TURBINOL-153? (5) A HE DID. YES. (6) A AT THAT TIME, YES. (6) Q AND TURN JUST TO THE FIRST PAGE THERE (7) Q AND DID MONSANTO CONSIDER TEXAS EASTERN (7) TALKING ABOUT NON-CONTROLLABLE END USES, (8) TO BE A RESPONSIBLE COMPANY? (8) PLASTICIZERS? (9) AYES, UH-HUH. (9) AI SEE IT. (10) Q DID MONSANTO CONSIDER TEXAS EASTERN TO (10) Q AND HAD THOSE SALES ALREADY BEEN (11) TERMINATED? (11) HAVE ADEQUATE TECHNICAL SUPPORT FOR ITS OPERATIONS? (12) AYES. (12) A DEFINITELY, YES. (13) Q AND THE NEXT ONE, HYDRAULIC APPLICATION. (13) Q AND DID MONSANTO CONSIDER THE USE OF (14) AYES. (15) Q YOU SEE THERE IS SPECIFICALLY MENTIONED (14) TURBINOL-153 TO BE IN A CONTROLLED SYSTEM? (15) AYES. (16) TURBINOL-153? (17) AI DO. (16) Q AND WAS THAT UNDERSTANDING GAINED THROUGH (18) Q INDICATING THAT 1242 IS STILL BEING USED (17) CONTACT WITH TEXAS EASTERN? (19) IN THAT APPLICATION? (20) AYES. (18) MR. TALLON: OBJECTION, FOUNDATION AND (19) LEADING. (21) Q AND IT SAYS, "PLAN TO TRY MCS-1016 WHEN (20) THE COURT: SUSTAINED. (22) AVAILABLE'? (23) A IT DOES SAY THAT. (21) Q BY MR. PREUSS: DID YOU KEEP IN TOUCH (22) WITH MR. JOHNSON? (24) Q DO YOU KNOW WHETHER 1016 WAS EVER USED (23) AYES. IN (24) Q AND DID MR. JOHNSON HAVE OVERALL (25) CONNECTION WITH TURBINOL OR ANY OTHER PRODUCT? (25) RESPONSIBILITY FOR PEOPLE UNDER HIM IN TERMS OF (26) A IT WAS NOT USED WITH TURBINOL BUT IT WAS (27) USED IN DIELECTRIC APPLICATIONS. (26) CONTACT WITH CUSTOMERS IN THE FUNCTIONAL FLUIDS AREA? (28) Q AND WHAT DIELECTRIC APPLICATIONS? (27) AYES. (28) Q AND WAS TURBINOL-153 A FLUID IN THE Page 2115 to Page 2118 Transwestern v. Monsanto WATER PCB-SD0000075910 BSA Trial Transcript [December 8,1993] XMAX(17) Page 2119 (1) FUNCTIONAL FLUID AREA? (28) MARCH 8,1971 AT WHICH MR. MASON MADE HIS PCB STATUS (2) AYES. (3) Q AND WAS PART OF YOUR RESPONSIBILITIES (4) THROUGH MR. JOHNSON, MR. JOHNSON'S RESPONSIBILITY TO (5) CONTACT CUSTOMERS CONCERNING THEIR OPERATIONS? (6) AYES. (7) Q AND TO LEARN ABOUT THOSE OPERATIONS? Page 2121 (1) REPORT. (2) Q OKAY. SO MR. MASON MADE THIS (3) PRESENTATION, AS WELL? (4) A CORRECT. (5) Q AND THIS WAS IN THE FIRST QUARTER (6) DEADLINE AS OF THE SEPTEMBER MEETING? (7) AYES. (8) AYES. (9) Q AND FOR WHAT PURPOSE? (10) A WELL, SPECIFICALLY THIS PURPOSE IS TO (8) Q OKAY. GOING TO NUMBER ONE, SIR, WHAT WAS (9) THE POUNDAGE OF SALES TERMINATED IN CONNECTION WITH (11) DETERMINE THE EFFORTS TOWARD CONTROL OF (10) THE USE OF THE NCR PRODUCT? LOSS OF PCB'S (12) TO THE ENVIRONMENT. (13) Q AND WAS THAT PART OF THE INSTRUCTIONS YOU (14) GAVE TO MR. JOHNSON AND OTHERS IN THESE (11) A 14.3 MILLION POUNDS ANNUALLY. (12) Q AND IF YOU GO TO NUMBER 3, ON HEAT (13) TRANSFER APPLICATIONS, HOW WERE SALES AFFECTED IN MEETINGS AS (15) TO PROVIDING INFORMATION TO CUSTOMERS CONCERNING THE (16) STATUS OF THE ENVIRONMENTAL SITUATION OF PCB'S? (17) AYES. (18) MR. TALLON: OBJECTION, LEADING. (14) THAT AREA? (15) A 50 PERCENT OF THEM HAD BEEN REPLACED. (16) Q BY SUBSTITUTE PRODUCTS? (17) A BY SUBSTITUTE FLAMMABLE PRODUCTS, (18) INCIDENTALLY. (19) Q WHAT REMAINED TO BE ACCOMPLISHED AFTER (20) MARCH OF '71, SIR, IN TERMS OF THE PROGRAM? (19) THE COURT; SUSTAINED. (20) Q BY MR. PREUSS: WHAT INFORMATION DID YOU (21) IMPART AT THESE MEETINGS TO OTHER (21) A WELL, I RECALL THE PROGRAM REGARDING THE (22) DISCHARGES FROM THE MONSANTO PLANTS. THAT WAS STILL REPRESENTATIVES OF (22) MONSANTO CONCERNING THESE ENVIRONMENTAL SITUATIONS, (23) SIR? (24) A THE IMPORTANCE OF CONTROLLING THE USE OF (23) ONGOING. (24) Q ALL RIGHT. MAYBE WE CAN TAKE THE (25) HEADINGS HERE. IT WOULD BE EASIER, STARTING WITH THE (26) NCR APPLICATION. (25) PCB'S SO THEY DO NOT END UP IN THE (27) HAS THAT BASICALLY BEEN COMPLETED? ENVIRONMENT. (28) AYES. (26) THAT WAS THE PRIMARY OBJECTIVE HERE. (27) Q AND AS PART OF THESE MEETINGS DID YOU ASK Page 2122 (1) Q AND HOW ABOUT SALES OF (28) YOUR REPRESENTATIVES TO REPORT BACK TO YOU CONCERNING 1 11 Page 2120 (1) THEIR CONTACTS WITH THEIR CUSTOMERS? (2) AYES. (3) Q AND DID YOU RECEIVE INFORMATION THROUGH (4) MR. JOHNSON AND HIS PEOPLE CONCERNING NQN-BIODEGRADABLE (2) PCB'S TO NON-CONTROLLABLE END USES? (3) WHAT WAS THE STATUS AS OF MARCH OF '71? (4) A THEY HAD BEEN COMPLETED. (5) Q AND HOW ABOUT THE HEAT TRANSFER (6) APPLICATIONS, HOW WAS THAT PROGRAM? (7) A WELL, IT'S PRETTY FAR ALONG, AS I RECALL, CONTACTS MADE (5) WITH TEXAS EASTERN? (6) AYES. (7) Q AND DID THE INFORMATION YOU RECEIVED (8) VIRTUALLY COMPLETED AT THAT TIME. (9) Q AND HOW ABOUT THE HYDRAULIC APPLICATIONS? (10) A THE REFORMULATION TO REMOVE PCB'S WAS (8) SATISFY YOU IN YOUR MIND THAT THE (11) COMPLETED. INFORMATION WAS (12) Q AND THEN IN THE ELECTRICAL AREA. (9) SUCH THAT THE USE OF TEXAS EASTERN OF (13) WHAT WAS THE STATUS, AT THAT TIME, WITH TURBINOL-153 (10) WAS, INDEED, A CONTROLLED USE? (14) RESPECT TO TRANSFORMERS AND CAPACITORS? (15) A WELL, THE RESPONSE TO - BY THE CUSTOMER, (11) MR. TALLON: CALLS FOR A RESPONSE BASED ON (16) BY CONTROL WAS VERY GOOD. (12) HEARSAY. (13) MR. PREUSS: IT GOES TO STATE OF MIND, YOUR (17) INFORMATION WAS SHARED BY BOTH PARTIES (18) VERY FREELY. (14) HONOR. (19) THERE WAS A PROBLEM WHAT TO DO WITH SOLID (15) MR. TALLON: AND IT'S LEADING. (20) WASTE CONTAINING PCB'S. IT WAS BEING LOOKED (16) THE COURT: THE OBJECTION IS OVERRULED. INTO - (17) YOU MAY ANSWER. (18) THE WITNESS: I WAS LEFT WITH THE IMPRESSION (21) BY SOLID WASTE, BY EXAMPLE, THE CAPACITORS THAT FAIL, (19) THAT I WAS SATISFIED WITH THE RESPONSES I GOT (22) WHAT DO YOU DO WITH THEM. THAT KIND OF TO MY QUESTION WAS (20) INQUIRY. (21) Q BY MR. PREUSS: RELATIVE TO THE USE OF (23) BEING ASKED. (24) AND 1016, MCS-1016 WHICH WAS THE (22) TURBINOL BEING A CONTROLLED USE? (25) SUBSTITUTE FOR AROCLOR 1242 IN CAPACITORS, (23) AYES. (24) Q 194, IF YOU WOULD TURN TO THAT, SIR. (25) COULD YOU IDENTIFY THAT FOR US, PLEASE. WAS WELL (26) ON ITS WAY TO BEING ACCEPTED. (27) Q AS OF MARCH OF '71 DID YOU HAVE 1016 (26) A THIS IS A COPY OF THE MINUTES OF THE (27) MEETING OF THE CORPORATE MANAGEMENT (28) COMMERCIALLY AVAILABLE IN QUANTITIES Page 2123 COMMITTEE OF (1) A NO. Transwestern v. Monsanto Page 2119 to Page 2123 WATER PCB-SD0000075911 BSA Trial Transcript [December 8,1993] XMAX(18) (2) Q - FOR THE CAPACITOR INDUSTRY? (3) A NO, NO, IT CAME LATER THAT YEAR. (4) Q AND, SIR, I WOULD LIKE TO SHOW YOU (5) EXHIBIT 719, IF YOU WOULD, TAKE A LOOK AT THAT. (6) AI HAVE IT. (7) Q CAN YOU IDENTIFY IT FOR US, PLEASE. (8) A THIS IS A COPY OF THE LABEL WE HAVE BEEN (9) TALKING ABOUT, THE STICK-ON ABEL THAT CONTAINS THE (10) PARAGRAPH THAT DESCRIBES THE ENVIRONMENTAL SITUATION (11) AS IT RELATES TO PCB'S. (12) Q HOW DID THIS COME INTO BEING? (2) A CERTAINLY. (3) Q NOW, IF YOU WOULD TAKE A LOOK AT 545, (4) PLEASE, SIR. (5) AI HAVE IT. (6) Q AND THIS IS A MEMO THAT YOU WROTE ON (7) APRIL 30,1970? (8) A IT IS. (9) Q AND DOES IT DEAL WITH THE SUBJECT OF THE (10) SUPPLEMENTAL LABEL? (11) A IT DOES. (12) Q AND WHAT DOES IT SAY WITH RESPECT TO THE (13) SUPPLEMENTAL LABEL, SIR? (14) A IT REFERS TO THE NEED FOR A SUPPLEMENTAL (13) A WELL, A GROUP OF US IN EARLY APRIL (14) DECIDED WE NEEDED SOME STATEMENT SIMILAR TO (15) LABEL FOR MATERIAL ALREADY PACKAGED BY MONSANTO, THE THIS ON (15) OUR CONTAINERS OF PCB CONTAINING PRODUCTS. (16) MATERIAL CONTAINING A PCB AND SITUATED IN VARIOUS (16) AND IT WAS FINALLY DEVELOPED IN EARLY MAY (17) AND BEGAN - WE BEGAN USING IT ON OUR PRODUCTS IN . (18) MAY, AS BEST I RECALL. (19) Q WAS THERE A SAMPLE LABEL LIKE THIS THAT (17) WAREHOUSES, EITHER IN MONSANTO PLANTS OR OUTSIDE. (18) Q SO THAT IF THERE WAS A 55-GALLON DRUM OF (19) A MONSANTO PRODUCT ALREADY MANUFACTURED AND LABELED (20) WAS OUT IN THE WORLD FOR YOU TO FOLLOW AS AN EXAMPLE? (21) A NO, NO. ' (22) THAT WAS ONE OF OUR PROBLEMS. (23) WE HAD NOTHING TO GUIDE US REGARDING (24) LABELS LIKE THIS FOR INDUSTRIAL CHEMICALS. (25) SO WE JUST DID THE BEST WE COULD WITH (26) WHAT WE KNEW. (27) Q AS FAR AS YOU KNOW, WAS THERE AN (28) ENVIRONMENTAL LABEL SUCH AS THIS AVAILABLE AT THAT________________________________________________ (20) AND READY FOR SALE AND DISTRIBUTION, THEN THE (21) SUPPLEMENTAL LABEL SHOULD BE STUCK ON THAT? (22) AYES. (23) Q AND TAKE A LOOK AT TRANSWESTERN 148, IF (24) YOU WOULD, PLEASE. (25) A I HAVE IT. (26) Q AND IS THIS ALSO A MEMO THAT YOU WROTE, (27) SIR? . (28) AI DID.1 11 Page 2124 Page 2126 (1) TIME ANYWHERE OR USED ANYWHERE IN THE INDUSTRY? (2) A NO, THIS IS THE FIRST. (1) Q AND DOES IT ALSO CONCERN THE SUBJECT OF A (2) SUPPLEMENTAL LABEL? (3) AYES. (3) Q OKAY. AND HOW WAS-WAS THIS LABEL THE (4) RESULT OF A CMC DIRECTIVE? (5) AYES. (4) Q AND WHAT WAS YOUR PURPOSE IN SENDING THIS (5) MEMO, SIR? (6) THE NOVEMBER '69 MEETING THEY REFERRED TO (6) A THE PURPOSE WAS TO MAKE CERTAIN THAT THE (7) LABEL CHANGES. . (8) Q OKAY. AND HOW IS THIS STICK-ON LABEL TO (7) MANUFACTURING MANAGERS WERE AWARE OF THIS ARRANGEMENT (9) BE USED, SIR? (8) AND WOULD SEE TO IT THAT THE LABELS WERE (10) A IT'S TO BE USED ON THOSE PRODUCTS MADE (11) AND SHIPPED BY MONSANTO THAT CONTAIN PCB'S PROPERLY (9) USED. OF ANY (12) AMOUNT THAT WERE ADDED TO MAKE THE PRODUCT (10) Q 172, IF YOU WOULD LOOK AT THAT, PLEASE. (11) A I HAVE IT. AND DID (13) NOT CONTAIN THIS KIND OF INFORMATION ON THE (12) Q ALL RIGHT. AND IS THIS A MEMO YOU (13) RECEIVED FROM MR. SIDO? ORIGINAL (14) OR THE FIRST LABEL THAT IS APPLIED TO THE CONTAINER. (15) Q FOR EXAMPLE, ON TURBINOL-153, WOULD THAT (16) BE A CASE IN POINT? (17) AYES. (18) Q ALL RIGHT. SO USING THAT AS AN EXAMPLE, (19) THEN, TURBINOL-153 DOES NOT HAVE ANY (14) AYES. (15) Q DID I PRONOUNCE HIS NAME CORRECTLY? (16) A SIDO. (17) Q AND THE SECOND PARAGRAPH THERE YOU WERE (18) QUESTIONED ABOUT WITH RESPECT TO PYDRAUL PRODUCTS AND (19) THEIR USE ON COAL MINE EQUIPMENT? (20) AYES. ENVIRONMENTAL (20) STATEMENT ON IT, AS INDICATED THERE, CORRECT? (21) ACORRECT. (21) Q CAN YOU EXPLAIN THAT SITUATION, SIR, AS (22) TO WHY THE SUPPLEMENTAL WASN'T SENT FOR IN THAT (23) PARTICULAR SITUATION? (22) THE COURT: THIS IS EXHIBIT 721, IS IT NOT? (23) MR. PREUSS: 22. (24) I'M SORRY, I DIDN'T MENTION THAT. (25) Q SO IN THAT TYPE OF A SITUATION THEN THE (26) ENVIRONMENTAL LABEL, 719, WOULD BE ALSO ADDED? (24) A THIS REFLECTS OUR ATTEMPT TO COOPERATE (25) AND COORDINATE WITH THE EUROPEAN PRODUCERS OF THESE (26) HYDRAULIC FLUIDS USED IN MINES. (27) AND THE INTENT, THE HOPE, REALLY, WAS (28) THAT A LABEL THAT WAS COMMON TO ALL (27) AYES. (28) Q THAT WAS THE INTENT OF THIS STICK-ON PRODUCERS OF Page 2125 (1) LABEL? Page 2123 to Page 2126 Transwestern v. Monsanto WATER PCB-SD0000075912 BSA___________ ____________________________________ Trial Transcript [December 8,1993] XMAX(19) Page 2127 (1) PCB'S IN EUROPE FOR THAT USE WOULD BE CONSISTENT AND (2) NOT CONTRADICTORY. (3) Q THAT THE NON-USE,`IF YOU WILL, OF THIS (4) SUPPLEMENTAL ENVIRONMENTAL LABEL REFERS ONLY TO THAT (5) SITUATION? (6) AYES. (7) AND IF IT TOOK TOO LONG, WE WERE PREPARED (8) TO GO AHEAD WITH OUR OWN. (9) Q NO APPLICATION FOR THE USE OF THAT (10) SUPPLEMENTAL LABEL ON PRODUCTS THAT ARE SOLD HERE IN (11) THE UNITED STATES, CORRECT? (12) A CORRECT. (13) Q THIS WAS TO BE USED IN THE VERY SITUATION (14) YOU HAVE DESCRIBED? (15) A THIS VERY SPECIAL SITUATION, YES. (16) Q 'VERY SPECIAL SITUATION" BEING THE ONLY (17) EXCEPTION TO THE USE OF THAT LABEL ON MONSANTO (18) PRODUCTS? (19) MR. TALLON: OBJECTION, LEADING. (20) Q BY MR. PREUSS: WAS THAT THE ONLY (21) EXCEPTION CONTEMPLATED BY YOU IN CONNECTION WITH THE (22) ENVIRONMENTAL SUPPLEMENTAL LABEL? (23) A CORRECT. (24) Q NOW, TRANSWESTERN 174, IF YOU WOULD, (25) PLEASE. (26) AI HAVE IT. (27) Q NOW, THIS IS A STATUS REPORT; IS THAT (28) CORRECT?1 11 Page 2128 (1) AYES. (2) Q AND YOU PREPARED IT? (3) AYES. (4) Q AND TELL US ABOUT THE EVOLUTION OR THE (5) REASON FOR YOU PREPARING THIS STATUS REPORT SIR (6) NOT THIS PARTICULAR ONE BUT THE STATUS REPORT (7) CONCEPT. (8) A WELL, STARTING FAIRLY EARLY IN 1970 I (9) PEFiCEIVED THE NEED FOR COMMUNICATING THE STATUS OF (10) THINGS, ESPECIALLY TO THE HIGHER-MANAGEMENT (28) A OH, THEY HAD JOBS IN RESEARCH, MARKETING, Page 2129 (1) ENGINEERING, MANUFACTURING, PUBLIC RELATIONS, LEGAL. (2) WE HAD(3) Q MEDICAL? (4) A MEDICAL. (5) I SUSPECT I MISSED SOME, BUT ANYBODY THAT (6) HAD ANY CONTRIBUTION AT ALL ABOUT PCB'S WOULD (7) PARTICIPATE. (8) Q AND DID YOU ASK THESE INDIVIDUALS TO (9) PROVIDE YOU INFORMATION ON THEIR SPECIALTY, IF YOU (10) WILL, IN THEIR PARTICULAR AREA OF THE PCB ISSUE? (11) AYES. (12) THAT WAS THE SOURCE FOR MY MONTHLY (13) SUMMARY. (14) Q AND WAS IT YOUR INTENT TO PUT THAT (15) INFORMATION INTO A SUMMARY FASHION AND THEN DISBURSE (16) IT? (17) AYES. (18) Q SORT OF THE FUNNELING OPERATION Wfc TALKED (19) ABOUT EARLIER? (20) A THAT WAS A GOOD EXAMPLE OF IT. (21) Q TO WHOM DID YOU DESIGNATE THESE MONTHLY (22) REPORTS? (23) A WELL, THE PEOPLE LISTED THERE ARE - WERE (24) ACTIVE ON MY PCB COMMITTEE. (25) THEY WOULD BE THE ADDRESSEES AS LISTED ON (26) THIS DOCUMENT. (27) AND THE CARBON COPIES WERE SENT TO THE (28) BOSSES, SO TO SPEAK. Page 2130 (1) AND THEY, IN TURN, COULD SHARE THIS WITH (2) THEIR BOSSES, IF THEY CHOSE TO DO SO. (3) THE COURT: MR. PREUSS, I NEED TO STOP A FEW (4) MINUTES BEFORE NOON TO ATTEND TO SOME OTHER (5) BUSINESS. (6) IF THIS IS A NATURAL BREAKING POINT, WE (7) WILL TAKE THE NOON RECESS NOW. (8) MR. PREUSS: ALL RIGHT FINE. (9) THE COURT: THEN, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, WE WILL (10) BE IN RECESS UNTIL 1:30. PEOPLE, (11) MR. BERGEN, MR. SPRINGGATE, MR. MASON AND SO ON. (12) SO I BEGAN, AS I RECALL, MAYBE ABOUT MAY (13) OF 1970 TO REPORT THE ACTIVITIES RELATING TO THIS PCB (14) ENVIRONMENTAL ISSUE. (15) AND OVER THE MONTHS THE REPORT COVERED A (16) GREATER SPAN OF ACTIVITIES, BECAME A LITTLE BIT (11) PLEASE RETURN JUST BEFORE THEN SO WE CAN (12) RESUME. (13) WE ARE IN RECESS NOW. (14) (AT 11:50 A.M., A RECESS WAS TAKEN (15) UNTIL 1:30 P.M.OFTHE SAME DAY.) (16) (17) (18) ; (19) MORE (17) DETAILED. . (18) Q AND YOU PREPARED THEM ON A MONTHLY BASIS? (19) AI PREPARED THEM ON A MONTHLY BASIS. (20) THE CONTRIBUTORS WERE THE MEMBERS OF (21) MY - I CALL IT THE PCB COMMITTEE, THE PEOPLE THAT (22) MET WITH ME ON A PERIODIC BASIS TO TOUCH BASE WITH (23) EACH OTHER, SO TO SPEAK. (24) Q WHO WERE THOSE INDIVIDUALS? (25) A THEY WERE- (26) Q WHAT KIND OF JOBS DID THEY HAVE IN THE (27) ORGANIZATION? (20) (21) (22) (23) (24) (25) (26) (27) 8). , Page 2131 (1) LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA; WEDNESDAY, DECEMBER 8,1993 (2) 1:30 P.M. (3) DEPARTMENT NO. 31 G. KEITH WISOT, JUDGE (4) ~0~ Transwestern v. Monsanto Page 2127 to Page 2131 WATER PCB-SD0000075913 BSA Trial Transcript [December 8,1993] XMAX(20) "(5) (APPEARANCES AS HERETOFORE NOTED.) (6) (DAVID A. SALYER, OFFICIAL REPORTER.) (7) (8) THE COURT: AND RESUMING. (9) GO AHEAD, MR. PREUSS. (10) (11) WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE, (12) CALLED AS A WITNESS BY THE PLAINTIFF, TRANSWESTERN, (13) UNDER THE PROVISIONS OF EVIDENCE CODE 776, HAVING (14) BEEN PREVIOUSLY SWORN, TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS: (15) (16) (17) CROSS EXAMINATION (CONTINUED.) (18) BY MR. PREUSS: (19) Q GOOD AFTERNOON, MR. PAPAGEORGE. (20) A GOOD AFTERNOON. (21) Q I WOULD LIKE TO GO BACK TO SOMETHING WE (7) QUEENY PLANT IN AUGUST OR SEPTEMBER OF 1970? ' (8) A WELL, I MET WITH THE PLANT MANAGER AND (9) HIS STAFF AND REVIEWED THE PCB ENVIRONMENTAL ISSUE (10) AND STATUS OF IT. (11) AND I TOOK ABOUT HALF A DAY AND THEN (12) FOLLOWING LUNCH, IN THE AFTERNOON, I WAS GIVEN A TOUR (13) OF THE PLANT WHERE WE VISITED VARIOUS HEIGHT TRANSFER (14) UNITS, TRANSFORMER INSTALLATIONS AND THE BLENDING (15) STATION AND THE WAREHOUSES AND THE SHIPPING DOCKS, SO (16) ON. (17) Q OKAY. THE BLENDING OPERATION WOULD HAVE (18) INCLUDED THE BLENDING OF TURBINOL-153? (19) AYES. (22) DISCUSSED BEFORE THE LUNCH BREAK, IN PARTICULAR , (23) EXHIBIT 545. (24) AI HAVE IT. (25) Q AND THIS MEMO WAS FROM YOU TO MR. SIDO? (26) A IT IS. (27) Q AND IT INVOLVED THE SUPPLEMENTAL (28) ENVIRONMENTAL LABEL? Page 2132 (1) AYES. (2) Q ALL RIGHT. AND WOULD YOU READ YOUR LAST (3) SENTENCE THERE. (20) Q AND YOU HAD FAMILIARITY WITH THAT PLANT (21) WITH THAT BLENDING OPERATION EARLIER IN YOUR CAREER? (22) AI DID. (23) I WAS THE SUPERINTENDENT RESPONSIBLE FOR (24) THAT IN 1963. (25) Q AND AT THAT TIME, AS PART OF YOUR JOB (26) RESPONSIBILITIES, WERE YOU FAMILIAR WITH LABELING IN (27) CONNECTION WITH ITEMS THAT WOULD BE BLENDED AND (28) STORED IN THE WAREHOUSE? (4) A "WILL YOU ARRANGE FOR PROCUREMENT OF THE Page 2134 (5) APPROPRIATE LABEL TO TAKE CARE OF THIS ONE-TIME (6) NEED." (7) QOKAY. AND THE FIRST SENTENCE THERE (1) A YES, I WAS. (2) Q AND IN CONNECTION WITH YOUR TOUR OF THE (3) WAREHOUSE IN AUGUST OR SEPTEMBER OF 1970 DID YOU HAVE (8) INDICATES WHAT, SIR? (9) A "A REVIEW OF OUR INVENTORY ON 4-29-70 (10) INDICATES ABOUT 6,000 UNITS OF PACKAGED (4) OCCASION TO OBSERVE PRODUCTS THAT WERE STILL IN THE (5) WAREHOUSE AND ON THE SHELF? AROCLOR (11) PRODUCTS ARE NOW IN VARIOUS WAREHOUSES. (6) AYES. (7) Q AND DID YOU SEE ANY TURBINOL-153? THESE UNITS (12) WILL REQUIRE A SUPPLEMENTARY LABEL WHICH WILL (8) AI DID. (9) Q AND DID YOU EXAMINE THE LABELING ON THOSE CONTAIN (13) THE PCB STATEMENT WE DISCUSSED." (10) DRUMS AND INVENTORY IN THE WAREHOUSE AT QUEENY? (14) Q AND SUBSEQUENT TO APRIL 30,1970, DID YOU (11) A NATURALLY, YES. (15) TAKE ANY STEPS TO SEE IF, IN FACT, THE ENVIRONMENTAL (12) Q AND WHAT LABELS DID YOU SEE ON THOSE (13) DRUMS OF TURBINOL-153 IN THE WAREHOUSE? (16) SUPPLEMENTAL LABEL WAS AFFIXED TO THE (14) A WELL, THERE WAS THE TURBINOL-153 LABEL WE PRODUCTS IN THE (15) SAW EARLIER TODAY AND THE SUPPLEMENTAL LABEL (17) VARIOUS WAREHOUSES OF MONSANTO? WE SAW (18) AYES. (19) Q AND HOW DID YOU ACCOMPLISH THAT, SIR? (16) EARLIER TODAY, THE TWO. (17) Q AND YOU HAVE A PERSONAL RECOLLECTION OF (20) A WELL, AS PART OF MY PERSONAL VISIT TO THE (18) SEEING THOSE TWO LABELS ON THOSE DRUMS OF (21) PLANTS THAT WERE INVOLVED WITH PCB'S AS EITHER A (22) MANUFACTURER OR A BLENDER PACKAGER. (19) TURBINOL-153 IN THE WAREHOUSE AT QUEENY IN AUGUST OR . (20) SEPTEMBER OF 1970? (23) I MADE IT A POINT THAT SOMETIME DURING (21) A YES, SIR. (24) THE DAY OF MY VISIT I WOULD BE TAKEN TO THE (22) Q JUST SO - IN PARTICULAR THE DRUMS OF 153 WAREHOUSE (25) AND BE SHOWN THE MATERIALS STORED THERE. (23) THAT YOU SAW IN AUGUST OR SEPTEMBER OF 1970, WHEN YOU (26) Q ALL RIGHT. AND WHEN DID YOU - TELL US (24) TOURED THE WAREHOUSE, HAD AFFIXED THIS (27) WHAT PLANTS DID YOU VISIT, SIR? LABEL? (28) A ANNISTON, ALABAMA, THE W. G. KRUMMRICH1 (25) AYES. Page 2133 (1) PLANT AT SAUGET, ILLINOIS AND THE JOHN F. (26) Q EXHIBIT 722. (27) AND THIS LABEL, EXHIBIT 719? QUEENY (28) A YES, DEFINITELY.___________ (2) PLANT IN ST. LOUIS. (3) Q AND APPROXIMATELY WHEN DID YOU GO TO THE (4) QUEENY PLANT? (5) A ABOUT AUGUST OR SEPTEMBER, 1970. (6) Q AND WHAT DID YOU DO WHEN YOU VISITED THE Page 2131 to Page 2134 Transwestern v. Monsanto WATER PCB-SD0000075914 BSA Trial Transcript [December 8,1993] XMAX(21) Page 2135 (1) Q NOW, I BELIEVE RIGHT AT THE BREAK, SIR (2) IF YOU WILL GO BACK TO TRANSWESTERN 174. (3) IF YOU WOULD TURN TO PAGE 5 OF THAT (4) EXHIBIT, PLEASE. Page 2137 (1) OF THE TURBINES, GENERAL ELECTRIC COMPANY, TO ALSO (2) CONDUCT ITS TESTS AND APPROVE THE PRODUCT. (3) THAT WAS VERY IMPORTANT. (5) AI HAVE IT. (6) Q UNDER THE ACTION PLAN ON PCB'S, SIR, ONE (7) OF THE OBJECTIVES WAS TO FIND REPLACEMENT PRODUCTS (8) WHEREVER POSSIBLE; IS THAT CORRECT? (4) Q WHY WAS THAT IMPORTANT, SIR? (5) A WELL, MONSANTO PERCEIVED IT AS IMPORTANT (6) BECAUSE THESE ARE MILLIONS OR DOLLARS OR MORE PIECES (7) OF EQUIPMENT. (9) AYES. (10) Q AND WERE REPLACEMENT PRODUCTS CONSIDERED (11) FOR TURBINOL-153? (8) AND THE PERSON THAT KNOWS THE MOST ABOUT (9) IT IS THE PERSON THAT MANUFACTURED IT. (10) AND THAT WAS CERTAINLY IN THIS CASE (11) GENERAL ELECTRIC. (12) AYES. (13) Q ALL RIGHT. AND WAS 1016 ONE POSSIBLE (14) SUBSTITUTE FOR 1242 THAT WAS CONSIDERED FOR (12) AND THEY KNOW BETTER THAN ANYONE ELSE (13) WHAT IS INVOLVED IN THAT WHOLE SYSTEM, NOT JUSTTHE THAT (15) PRODUCT? (16) AYES. (17) Q WHAT BECAME OF THAT EFFORT WITH RESPECT (14) FLUID ITSELF. (15) Q OKAY. COULD YOU TAKE A LOOK AT (16) TRANSWESTERN 209, PLEASE. (17) AI HAVE IT. (18) TO 1016, IN PARTICULAR? (19) A WELL, BY THE TIME AROCLOR 1016 WAS (18) Q ALL RIGHT. AND COULD YOU IDENTIFY THIS (19) FOR US, PLEASE. (20) AVAILABLE COMMERCIALLY, THE PROGRAM WHICH (20) A THIS IS A MEMORANDUM FROM MR. C.L. INVOLVED (21) LOOKING AT PHOSPHATE ESTERS FOR FLUIDS WAS (21) BRADFORD ADDRESSED TO ME DATED SEPTEMBER 16,1971 QUITE (22) AND - THE SUBJECT IS "PCB WORK-STATUS." (22) SUCCESSFUL. (23) WE WERE QUITE OPTIMISTIC THAT WE WERE (23) Q OKAY. AND MR. BRADFORD HELD WHAT TYPE OF (24) POSITION AT MONSANTO AT THE TIME, SIR? (24) GOING TO COME UP WITH A PHOSPHATE ESTER THAT (25) A HE WAS IN THE MARKETING DEPARTMENT IN WAS (25) BETTER THAN ANYTHING ALREADY ON THE (26) ST. LOUIS THAT CONCERNED ITSELF WITH THE TECHNICAL MARKETPLACE. (26) THIS WAS FAIRLY LATE IN 71, AS I (27) MATTERS RELATING TO PRODUCTS USED IN HYDRAULIC (27) RECALL. (28) SO RATHER THAN GOING TO A CHLORINATED (28) SYSTEMS, LUBRICATING SYSTEMS. 1 11 Page 2138 Page 2136 (1) MATERIAL LIKE AROCLOR 1016, IT WAS DECIDED THAT (1) Q ALL RIGHT. AND WOULD HE BE UNDER NORM (2) JOHNSON'S SUPERVISION? FORA (2) TURBINOL-TYPE FLUID THAT THE PHOSPHATE ESTER, (3) A HE WAS, YES. (4) Q ALL RIGHT. COULD YOU TURN TO THE SECOND IF IT'S (3) AS GOOD AS IT LOOKS, WILL BE BETTER THAN THE (5) PAGE, PLEASE. (6) A ALL RIGHT. . ONE WITH (4) THE 1016. . (5) SO THE EMPHASIS WAS SWITCHED TO LOOKING (7) Q AND THE FOURTH PARAGRAPH. (8) A DO YOU WANT ME TO READ THAT? (9) Q YES, PLEASE. (6) AT PHOSPHATE ESTERS INSTEAD OF CHLORINATED (10) A "ON TURBINOL-153 WE DO NOT PLAN TO (7) CHEMICALS. (8) Q AND THIS MEMO IS AUGUST, 70. (9) IS THE NC PHOSPHATE ESTER THE PRODUCT (10) THAT MONSANTO WAS LOOKING AT AT THAT TIME (11) APPROACH TEXAS EASTERN UNTIL WE HAVE RECEIVED (12) APPROVAL FROM GENERAL ELECTRIC FOR USE OF ONE OF OUR IN HOPES OF (11) DEVELOPING? (12) AYES. (13) Q TAKING IT A YEAR FROM THE DATE OF THIS (14) MEMO, SAY, LATE '71, HAD THIS PHOSPHATE ESTER (15) MATERIAL REACHED THE STAGE OF COMMERCIAL (13) NEW NC ESTERS IN GAS TURBINES." (14) Q WHAT WAS YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF THIS (15) PARAGRAPH UPON RECEIVING THE MEMO, SIR? (16) AI UNDERSTOOD THAT AS ONE OF POINTING OUT (17) THAT GENERAL ELECTRIC'S APPROVAL WAS THE KEY NEED (16) AVAILABILITY? (18) HERE. (17) A TO A LIMITED AMOUNT, YES. (19) WE COULDN'T REALLY APPROACH TEXAS EASTERN (18) Q IN WHAT AREAS? (20) WITHOUT HAVING THE BLESSING, IF YOU WILL, FROM (19) A IT WAS BEING USED IN SOME OF THE PYDRAUL (21) GENERAL ELECTRIC THAT THIS MATERIAL WILL (20) PRODUCTS AT MONSANTO, BLENDED. (21) Q HOW ABOUT IN ANY APPLICATION SUCH AS FOR (22) GAS TURBINES? (23) A WELL, IT WAS BEING SERIOUSLY CONSIDERED. (24) IF MY MEMORY SERVES ME RIGHT, THERE WAS OPERATE (22) PROPERLY IN THE EQUIPMENT THEY DESIGNED. (23) Q THE PHOSPHATE ESTER THAT WE TALKED ABOUT, (24) THAT IS ALSO FIRE RESISTANT? (25) SOME TESTING DONE. (25) A NO. (26) I THINK ITS FIRE RESISTANCE WAS (26) YES, YES. (27) DEMONSTRATED BY THEN. (27) I'M THINKING OF THE OILS. (28) BUT THE KEY WAS TO GET THE MANUFACTURER (28) PHOSPHATE ESTER IS FIRE RESISTANT. Transwestern v. Monsanto Page 2135 to Page 2138 WATER PCB-SD0000075915 BSA Trial Transcript [December 8,1993] XMAX(22) Page 2139 (1) Q DO YOU RECALL EARLIER THAT WE TALKED (2) ABOUT DR. RISEBROUGH BOTH IN THE CONTEXT OF HIS ' (3) FINDINGS IN 1968 WITH RESPECT TO THE PEREGRINE (4) FALCONS? (5) AI RECALL THAT. (6) Q AND MARINE WILDLIFE? (7) AYES. (8) Q ALL RIGHT. AND YOU SAID THAT YOU HAD HAD (9) A VISIT WITH HIM AND DR. OLCUTT EARLIER? (10) AYES. (11) Q DID YOU HAVE A SUBSEQUENT VISIT WITH (12) DR. RISEBROUGH? (13) A WELL, THERE WERE - I MET WITH (14) DR. RISEBROUGH MANY TIMES. (15) I KNOW HE CAME TO ST. LOUIS. (16) WE HAD A FULL-DAY SESSION WITH HIM AND (17) TWO OTHER SCIENTISTS. I FORGET THEIR NAMES NOW. (18) Q AT SOME POINT DID DR. RISEBROUGH ASK YOU (19) OR MONSANTO FOR MONSANTO'S PRODUCTION Page 2141 (1) PRESS RELEASE? ' (2) A I DID. (3) Q ALL RIGHT. CAN YOU TAKE A LOOK AT 587, (4) PLEASE. (5) A I HAVE IT. (6) Q AND IS THAT THE PRESS RELEASE THAT WAS (7) ENCLOSED IN YOUR LETTER TO DR. RISEBROUGH? (8) A IT IS. (9) Q AND COULD YOU READ THE FIRST PARAGRAPH (10) FOR US, PLEASE. (11) A "MONSANTO COMPANY ANNOUNCED TODAY IT HAS (12) RELEASED FIGURES TO THE UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF (13) COMMERCE SHOWING THE COMPANY'S U.S. PRODUCTION AND (14) SALES OF POLYCHLORINATED BIPHENYL (PCB) FROM 1960 (15) THROUGH ESTIMATED 1971." (16) Q AND THE DATE OF THIS PRESS RELEASE? (17) A NOVEMBER 30,1971. (18) Q OKAY. AND THE THIRD PARAGRAPH, COULD YOU (19) READ THAT, PLEASE. FIGURES ON (20) PCB'S? (21) AYES, HE DID. (22) Q AND WHAT WAS THE EXPRESS PURPOSE THAT (23) DR. RISEBROUGH GAVE TO YOU FOR THAT REQUEST? (24) A WELL, HE BELIEVED THAT HE NEEDED THOSE (25) NUMBERS IN ORDER TO(26) MR.TALLON: I WILL OBJECT TO HIS BELIEF, YOUR (27) HONOR. (28) THE COURT: SUSTAINED. Page 2140 (1) Q BY MR. PREUSS: WERE THE PRODUCTION (20) A 'THE REPORT ALSO SHOWS MONSANTO'S (21) VOLUNTARILY REDUCED ITS NON-ELECTRICAL SALES OF PCB (22) FROM THE HIGH OF 16,000 TONS IN 1970 TO 4,400 TONS IN (23) 1971. (24) "SUBSTANTIAL REDUCTION - SUBSTANTIAL (25) FURTHER REDUCTION WILL BE ACCOMPLISHED IN 1972, THE (26) COMPANY SAID." (27) Q AND THEN COULD YOU READ THE QUOTE AT THE (28) BOTTOM THAT IS ATTRIBUTED TO MR. CUNNINGHAM, THE 1 11 (2) FIGURES PROVIDED TO DR. RISEBROUGH, SIR? (3) A THEY WERE NOT. (4) Q WERE THEY ULTIMATELY PROVIDED TO HIM, Page 2142 (1) FIRST PAGE THERE. (2) A "AS PART OF OUR CONTROL PROGRAM THE DATA (5) SIR? (6) AYES. (7) Q ALL RIGHT. AND INITIALLY WHY WERE THEY (8) NOT? (9) A WELL, ITS MONSANTO'S POLICY NOT TO (10) MENTION PRODUCTS BY CUSTOMERS, BY AMOUNTS, (3) WERE ORIGINALLY PREPARED FOR THE FEDERAL PCB JOINT (4) TASK FORCE AND OTHER CONCERNED CITIZENS FOR USE" - (5) Q COULD YOU RE-READ THAT ONE. (6) A "CONCERNED SCIENTISTS FOR USE ON A WITHOUT (11) CUSTOMER APPROVAL OR PERMISSION. (12) Q AND WHY IS THAT, SIR? (7) CONFIDENTIAL BASIS SO SCIENTISTS CAN PROPERLY (8) EVALUATE THE FIGURES AND RELATE THEM TO IMPACT ON THE (13) A PRIMARILY BECAUSE OF THE COMPETITIVENESS (14) THAT IS OUT THERE IN THE MARKETPLACE AND OUR (9) ENVIRONMENT." (10) Q AND CONTINUE ONTO THE NEXT PAGE. (15) CUSTOMERS DON'T WANT OTHERS TO KNOW WHAT (11) A "MONSANTO HAS NOW CHOSEN TO RELEASE THE INGREDIENT (16) IS USED IN MATERIALS OR HOW MUCH BECAUSE (12) FIGURES PUBLICLY BECAUSE SCIENTISTS HAVE CONTINUED TO THAT TELLS (17) THE COMPETITOR WHAT THE MARKETPLACE IS LIKE. (18) THAT IS ABOUT IT. (19) IT HAS TO DO WITH COMPETITION IN THE (13) EXPRESS A NEED FOR THE DATA TO MAKE A PROPER ESTIMATE (14) HOW MUCH PCB MIGHT BE IN THE ENVIRONMENT. (15) "WE ALSO BELIEVE THE FIGURES WILL INFORM (20) MARKETPLACE FOR THE PRODUCTS OUR CUSTOMERS ARE (21) PRODUCING. (22) Q WOULD YOU TAKE A LOOK AT EXHIBIT 586, (23) PLEASE. (24) AI HAVE IT. . (25) Q ALL RIGHT. AND DID YOU SEND THIS LETTER (26) TO DR. RISEBROUGH ON OR ABOUT NOVEMBER 30, 1971? (27) A I DID. (28) Q DID YOU PROVIDE HIM WITH A COPY OF THE (16) THE PUBLIC ABOUT MONSANTO'S POSITIVE ACTIONS TO LIMIT (17) THE SALE OF PCB'S TO CONFINED APPLICATIONS, THE (18) COMPANY EXECUTIVE SAID." (19) Q AND IS THERE AN ATTACHMENT TO THAT, SIR? (20) A YES, SIR. (21) Q ARE THOSE THE PRODUCTION FIGURES? (22) AYES. (23) Q AND IS THIS WHAT WAS PROVIDED, THEN, TO (24) DR. RISEBROUGH AND THE GOVERNMENT? (25) AYES. (26) Q WOULD YOU TAKE A LOOK AT 715, PLEASE. (27) IF YOU WOULD, MR. PAPAGEORGE, JUST TAKE A (28) GLANCE THROUGH IT. Page 2139 to Page 2142 Transwestern v. Monsanto WATER PCB-SD0000075916 BSA Trial Transcript [December 8,1993] XMAX(23) Page 2143 (1) MY ONLY QUESTION WOULD BE WHETHER YOU (2) WERE THE AUTHOR OF THIS DOCUMENT. (3) AYES, I WAS. (4) Q AND CAN YOU PLACE IT IN POINT OF TIME, (5) PLEASE. (6) A THIS WAS PREPARED IN APRIL OF 1970 FOR (7) PRESENTATION TO THE CMC LATER THAT MONTH. (8) Q THANK YOU, SIR. (9) NOW, IF YOU WOULD, GO TO 581, PLEASE. (10) CAN YOU IDENTIFY THIS MEMO FOR US, (11) PLEASE. (12) A THIS IS A MEMORANDUM DATED NOVEMBER 16, (13) 1971, AUTHORED BY T. L. GOSSAGE, ADDRESSED TO (14) C. P. CUNNINGHAM. , (15) Q AND MR. CUNNINGHAM WAS MENTIONED IN THE (16) PRESS RELEASE, SIR. (17) WHAT WAS MR. CUNNINGHAM'S POSITION WITH (18) THE COMPANY IN NOVEMBER OF 1971? (19) A HE WAS A VICE-PRESIDENT AND MANAGING (20) DIRECTOR OF THE OPERATING UNIT IN MONSANTO THAT WAS (21) RESPONSIBLE FOR PCB-TYPE PRODUCTS. (22) Q AND MR. GOSSAGE, THE AUTHOR OF THE MEMO, (23) HELD WHAT POSITION? (24) A HE WAS THE DIRECTOR OF MARKETING OF THE (25) BUSINESS GROUP THAT WAS INVOLVED WITH PCB-TYPE (26) PRODUCTS. (27) Q AND YOU RECEIVED A COPY OF THIS MEMO? (28) AI DID, 1 11 Page 2144 (1) Q AND THERE IS A DISCUSSION OF APPROVED (2) CUSTOMERS AND LIST OF APPROVED CUSTOMERS. (3) COULD YOU TELL US WHAT THIS IS ALL ABOUT, (4) SIR. (5) A THIS WAS A PROGRAM FOR LISTING THOSE (6) CUSTOMERS OF MONSANTO'S PCB-TYPE PRODUCTS THAT IN (7) MONSANTO'S OPINION WERE RESPONSIBLE AND CAPABLE OF (8) CARRYING OUT THE RESPONSIBILITIES REGARDING KEEPING ' (9) PCB'S OUT OF THE ENVIRONMENT AND PROPERLY USED AND (10) HANDLED. (11) Q WAS THERE AN ACTUAL LIST WHERE CUSTOMERS (12) WERE PUT ON A LINE? (13) A YES, THEY WERE. (14) Q AND WHEN DID THIS APPROVED LIST PROCESS (15) GET IMPLEMENTED AT MONSANTO? (16) AI DON'T RECALL THE EXACT DATES, BUT IT (17) WAS- (18) Q MAYBE IF YOU TAKE A LOOK AT THE SECOND (19) PARAGRAPH, THAT MIGHT REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION A (20) BIT. (21) A WELL, IT WAS - YEAH, JUST PRIOR TO THE (22) DATE OF THIS MEMO. (23) IT REFERS TO NOVEMBER 9TH THERE. (24) Q OKAY. AND THEN COULD YOU READ THE (25) SENTENCE RIGHT AFTER THAT THAT SAYS, "PRIOR TO THAT (26) TIME." (27) A "PRIOR TO THAT TIME AND SINCE THE EAST (28) COAST TERMINAL EPISODE, WE HAVE BEEN APPROVING ORDERS Transwestern v. Monsanto Page 2143 to Page 2144 WATER PCB-SD0000075917 BSA Trial Transcript [December 8,1993] XMAX(24) Page 2145 (25) Q ALL RIGHT. AND WHEN DID THE MANAGEMENT (1) ON A CASE-BY-CASE BASIS, EACH ORDER REQUIRING (26) COMMITTEE OF MONSANTO TAKE THIS ACTION? THE (2) APPROVAL OF THE PRODUCT GROUP PLUS EITHER BILL (3) PAPAGEORGE OR ME." (4) Q AND WHY WAS THIS PROCEDURE FOR (27) A AS I REMEMBER, IT WAS ABOUT DECEMBER, (28) 71.. Page 2147 (1) Q AND WERE THERE ANY EXCEPTIONS TO THE (2) ELECTRICAL INDUSTRY? APPROVING (5) ORDERS ADOPTED ON A CASE-BY-CASE BASIS? (6) A THAT IS TO GIVE US THE CHANCE TO EVALUATE (7) ON A CASE-BY-CASE BASIS THE SPECIFIC CUSTOMER, THE (3) A YEAH, THERE WAS ONE. (4) Q AND WHAT WAS THAT EXCEPTION? (5) A THAT EXCEPTION WAS TEXAS EASTERN. (6) Q AND WHAT WAS THE REASON FOR THAT (7) EXCEPTION, SIR? (8) TYPE OF PRODUCT HE WAS GETTING, THE AMOUNT, (8) A WELL, MONSANTO CAN'T GIVE - FIRST WE WHAT HE (9) RECOGNIZED, TOO, THAT THIS APPLICATION WAS (9) WAS DOING WITH IT AND HOW HE UNDERSTOOD AND IMPORTANT CARRIED (10) OUT HIS PROGRAM FOR KEEPING THE PCB'S UNDER (10) REGARDING SAFETY AND ALL (11) WE WANTED TO GIVE TEXAS EASTERN A CHANCE CONTROL. (11) Q THERE IS A REFERENCE IN THAT SENTENCE (12) THAT YOU JUST READ TO THE "EAST COAST TERMINAL (13) EPISODE." (14) CAN YOU BRIEFLY TELL US THAT, WHAT THAT (15) WAS ALL ABOUT. (16) A THIS WAS THE INCIDENT IN WHICH FISH MEAL (12) TO SIGN ON UNDER THE TERMS THAT THE ELECTRICAL PEOPLE (13) WERE ASKED TO. (14) BUT AT THE SAME TIME, WHEN SIGNING ON (15) WITH THE UNDERSTANDING THAT THERE WERE ACCEPTABLE (16) SUBSTITUTES FOR THIS USE, THAT TEXAS EASTERN MIGHT (17) FROM PERU WAS BEING PASTEURIZED BY A HEAT TRANSFER (18) SYSTEM. (19) WE TALKED ABOUT IT THE OTHER DAY. (20) PCB'S GOT INTO THE FISH MEAL. (21) THE FISH MEAL GOT INTO THE POULTRY FOOD (22) AND INTO THE FLOCKS OF POULTRY. (23) QI SEE. (24) DID THE GOVERNMENT GET INVOLVED WITH THAT (17) WANT TO USE A SIX-MONTH PERIOD TO CONDUCT A (18) TRANSITION. (19) SO THE AGREEMENT WAS TO BE IN EXISTENCE (20) FOR SIX MONTHS AFTER SIGNING, AS I - YES. (21) Q ALL RIGHT. COULD YOU TAKE A LOOK AT (22) TRANSWESTERN 229, THESE. (23) A I HAVE IT. ` (24) Q ALL RIGHT. AND CAN YOU IDENTIFY THIS (25) DOCUMENT FOR US, PLEASE. (25) EPISODE? (26) A OH, YES, YES. (27) Q HOW DID THEY GET INVOLVED, IF YOU KNOW? (28) A MONSANTO CALLED THE FDA AND TOLD THEM. (26) A THIS IS A LETTER, MONSANTO LETTERHEAD, (27) DATED JANUARY 7TH, 1972, AUTHORED BY C. LARRY (28) BRADFORD, ADDRESSED TO MR. TED HARRISON AT TEXAS Page 2146 (1) Q ALL RIGHT. WAS ONE OF THE APPROVED (2) CUSTOMERS ON THE LIST TEXAS EASTERN TRANSMISSION (3) CORPORATION? (4) AYES. (5) Q AND THAT WAS WITH RESPECT TO (6) TURBINOL-153? (7) AYES. (8) Q NOW, SUBSEQUENT TO NOVEMBER OF 1961 DID (9) THE MANAGEMENT COMMITTEE OF MONSANTO Page 2148 (1) EASTERN TRANSMISSION CORPORATION. (2) Q AND THIS IS THE SAME MR. BRADFORD WHOM WE (3) DISCUSSED A MINUTE AGO? (4) AYES. (5) Q AND THIS LETTER INDICATES A COPY OF A (6) PROPOSED AGREEMENT. (7) IS THAT WHAT YOU HAD REFERENCE TO (8) EARLIER? (9) AYES. TAKE FURTHER (10) ACTION TO CONTROL THE USE OF ITS PRODUCTS? (10) Q AND WHAT WAS THE TITLE OF THIS PROPOSED (11) AGREEMENT? (11) AYES, IT DID. (12) Q AND WHAT ACTION DID IT TAKE? (13) A IT WAS DECIDED THAT IN SPITE OF ALL (14) MONSANTO'S ATTEMPTS TO CONDUCT A PROGRAM (12) A SPECIAL UNDERSTANDING BY PURCHASERS OF (13) LUBRICANTS CONTAINING POLYCHLORINATED BIPHENYLS. (14) Q ALL RIGHT. AND IF YOU WOULD, SIR, WOULD WHERE (15) YOU READ THE FIRST PARAGRAPH FOR US. (15) CONTROL OF PCB'S WAS ASSURED AND PROPER USE (16) A MONSANTO COMPANY, "MONSANTO,111 11 AND (16) HANDLING WAS IN PLACE THIS EAST COAST (17) MANUFACTURERS A FIRE-RESISTANT TURBINE LUBRICANT, TERMINAL (17) INCIDENT INDICATED THAT THERE ARE JUST TOO (18) TURBINOL-153 WHICH CONTAINS MAJOR AMOUNTS OF CERTAIN MANY5 (19) POLYCHLORINATED BIPHENYL PRODUCTS (PCB'S) (18) CUSTOMERS OUT THERE FOR MONSANTO TO REALLY WHICH TEXAS BE IN (19) CONTROL, TOO MUCH GOING ON. (20) EASTERN TRANSMISSION CORPORATION (BUYER) DESIRES TO (20) IT WAS DECIDED THAT MONSANTO WOULD STOP (21) PURCHASE. (21) ALL PCB SALES EXCEPT TO THE DIELECTRIC USE (22) WHILE BUYER DESIRES TO PURCHASE WHERE (22) THERE WAS NO SUBSTITUTE AVAILABLE. (23) AND MONSANTO DIDN'T WANT TO CREATE FIRES (24) AND EXPLOSIONS AND ELECTRIC BLACKOUTS AND BROWNOUTS. (23) TURBINOL-153 BECAUSE OF ITS OUTSTANDING (24) FIRE-RESISTANT PROPERTIES, BUYER ACKNOWLEDGES THAT IT (25) IS AWARE AND HAS BEEN ADVISED BY MONSANTO THAT Page 2145 to Page 2148 Transwestern v. Monsanto WATER PCB-SD0000075918 BSA Trial Transcript [December 8,1993] XMAX{25) (26) TURBINOL-153 CONTAINS PCB'S AND THAT PCB'S MONSANTO TEND TO (17) ACTIONS. (27) PERSIST IN THE ENVIRONMENT, THAT CARE IS REQUIRED IN (28) THEIR HANDLING, POSSESSION, USE AND (18) AND BEGINNING WITH 1966, IF YOU WOULD. (19) AND BASED ON YOUR UNDERSTANDING AND YOUR (20) INVESTIGATION AND YOUR DISCHARGE OF YOUR DISPOSITION, THAT (21) RESPONSIBILITIES AS MANAGER OF Page 2149 ENVIRONMENTAL CONTROL, (1) TOLERANCE LIMITS HAVE BEEN AND ARE BEING (22) CONFIRM THE DATES THAT ARE INDICATED IN THIS ESTABLISHED (23) CHRONOLOGY OF EVENTS, '58 TO '72. (2) FOR PCB'S IN VARIOUS FOOD PRODUCTS." (24) Al WILL TRY. (3) Q OKAY. THEN, IF YOU WOULD, SIR, WOULD YOU (25) AS BEST AS MY RECOLLECTION WILL HELP ME, (4) BE GOOD ENOUGH TO READ THE THIRD (26) THIS IS A GOOD DATE AS IT RELATES TO PARAGRAPH. INFORMATION FROM (5) CONTINUE ON TO THE NEXT PAGE. (6) A "ACCORDINGLY, BUYER HEREBY COVENANTS AND (27) THE WORK OF DR. WIDMARK AND MR. JENSEN. (28) Q OKAY. (7) AGREES THAT WITH RESPECT TO ANY AND ALL Page 2151 TURBINOL-153 (1) A YES, THIS IS THE MONTH DURING WHICH (8) SOLD OR DELIVERED BY OR ON BEHALF OF (2) MR. DAVID WOOD DID VISIT WITH MR. JENSEN AND MONSANTO TO ' (3) DR. WIDMARK. (9) BUYER ON OR AFTER JANUARY 15,1972 AND IN (4) Q PERHAPS, IF YOU COULD, BE KIND ENOUGH, (10) CONSIDERATION OF ANY SUCH SALE OR DELIVERY (5) SIR, TO JUST SPELL OUT THE DATE OR WHATEVER BUYER WILL THE DATE (11) DEFEND, INDEMNIFY AND HOLD HARMLESS (6) IS AND EITHER CONFIRM IT SO WE HAVE THAT. MONSANTO, ITS (12) PRESENT, PAST AND FUTURE DIRECTORS, OFFICERS, (7) AT LEAST ITS HARD WITH MY EYES TO SEE IT (8) FROM HERE. (13) EMPLOYEES AND AGENTS FROM AND AGAINST ANY (9) A VERY GOOD. ' AND ALL (10) JANUARY, 1967. THAT IS WHEN DAVID WOOD (14) LIABILITIES, CLAIMS, DAMAGES, PENALTIES, ACTIONS, (11) MADE HIS VISIT TO SWEDEN. (15) SUITS, LOSSES, COSTS AND EXPENSES ARISING OUT (12) Q OKAY. OF OR (13) A IN 1967, ABOUT THE THIRD QUARTER OF THAT, (16) IN CONNECTION WITH THE RECEIPT, PURCHASE, (14) 1967 IS WHEN DR. SCOTT TUCKER JOINED POSSESSION, MONSANTO AND (17) HANDLING, USE, SALE OR DISPOSITION OF (15) BECAME THE PRINCIPAL PERSON IN CHARGE OF TURBINOL-153 ANALYTICAL (IB) BY, THROUGH OR UNDER BUYER, WHETHER ALONE (16) RESEARCH FOR PCB'S. OR IN (17) IN 1968, AS A RESULT OF DR. TUCKER'S WORK (19) COMBINATION WITH OTHER SUBSTANCES, (18) AND ALL, MONSANTO ACQUIRED SOME NEW INCLUDING, WITHOUT ANALYTICAL (20) IMPLIED LIMITATION, ANY CONTAMINATION OF OR (19) EQUIPMENT, BETTER EQUIPMENT TO EVALUATE THE ADVERSE FINDINGS (21) EFFECT ON HUMANS, MARINE AND WILDLIFE, FOOD, (20) THAT WE HAD LEARNED ABOUT FROM THE SWEDISH ANIMAL WORK. (22) FEED, OR THE ENVIRONMENT BY REASON OF SUCH (21) IN MAY OF 1969, YEAH, MONSANTO'S (23) TURBINOL-153 OR THE PCB'S CONTAINED THEREIN." (22) DR. RICHARD, MR. WHEELER AND DR. KELLER VISITED (24) Q ALL RIGHT. AND THE FIRST SENTENCE OF THE THE (25) NEXT PARAGRAPH, PLEASE. (23) PCB RESEARCHERS WE KNEW OF IN EUROPE AND (26) A "MONSANTO WILL NOT SUPPLY ANY THAT, OF (27) TURBINOL-153 AFTER JUNE 30,1972." (28) Q DID YOU HAVE AN UNDERSTANDING AS TO1 11 (24) COURSE, INCLUDED A VISIT WITH PROFESSOR WIDMARK. Page 2150 (25) AND, OF COURSE, THE EMPHASIS AT THAT TIME (1) WHETHER THIS WAS TO APPLY TO SALES THAT (26) WAS STILL ON THE FIVE- AND SIX-TYPE CHLORINES. HAD BEEN MADE (27) IN AUGUST 25TH OF 1969 THE PCB AD HOC (2) PRIOR TO THIS TIME? (3) A NO, NO. (28) COMMITTEE WAS FORMED. THAT IS THE ONE THAT WAS (4) THIS APPLIES TO SALES AFTER THE DATE (5) MENTIONED, JANUARY 15. (6) Q AND DO YOU HAVE AN UNDERSTANDING AS TO (7) WHETHER TEXAS EASTERN SIGNED THIS AGREEMENT? (8) A THEY DID NOT SIGN IT. (9) Q MR. PAPAGEORGE, WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO DO (10) NOW IS TO SHOW YOU A TIMELINE AND MAKE SURE THAT YOU (11) AGREE WITH THE TIMES AND THE DATES INDICATED THERE, (12) EXHIBIT 781. (13) ALL RIGHT. WHAT I WOULD LIKE YOU TO (14) FOCUS ON, SIR, IF YOU WOULD, PLEASE, AND BRIEFLY TAKE (15) US THROUGH THAT AND CONFIRM FOR US, THE DATES THAT (16) HAVE THE GREEN ON THEM WHICH DEAL WITH Transwestern v. Monsanto Page 2148 to Page 2151 WATER PCB-SD0000075919 BSA Trial Transcript [December 8, 1993] XMAX(26) Page 2152 (1) INITIALLY CALLED A PCB TASK FORCE. IT WAS FORMED. (2) ON NOVEMBER 17 MONSANTO MANAGEMENT MADE A (3) PRESENTATION TO ITS CORPORATE MANAGEMENT COMMITTEE (4) AND THE CORPORATE MANAGEMENT COMMITTEE ADOPTED THAT (5) 12-POINT PROGRAM AND THAT REPORT THAT WAS MADE WAS (6) BASED ON THE PREVIOUS REPORT PUT TOGETHER BY THE AD (7) HOC COMMITTEE. (8) ON JANUARY FIRST I SHOWED UP ON THE JOB (9) AS ONE OF THE APPROVED POINTS IN THAT 12-POINT (10) PROGRAM. (11) IN APRIL-NO-YES. IN APRIL I MADE A (12) PRESENTATION TO THE CMC TO RESTRICT SALES TO CERTAIN (13) PCB USES. (14) AND ON APRIL 3RD - THIS IS A LITTLE BIT (15) INCORRECT IN THAT WE DIDN'T ADD THE LABELS ON APRIL (16) 3RD. THE DECISION WAS MADE TO PREPARE LABELS FOR USE (17) LATER ON. (18) SO THAT(19) Q WHAT SHOULD THAT DATE BE, IN MAY? (20) AI WOULD SUGGEST ABOUT MAY - I DON'T HAVE (21) AN EXACT DATE, ABOUT THE MIDDLE OF MAY. (22) Q MAY 15? (23) A THAT IS FAIRLY CLOSE. (24) Q JUST A MINUTE, THEN. LET ME STICK THAT (25) ON. (26) OKAY. COULD YOU CONTINUE, THEN. (27) A THIS ITEM I'M POINTING TO NOW, APRIL, (28) 1970, IF I READ THIS CORRECTLY, SEEMS TO ME IT ALSO Page 2153 (1) COVERED THE APRIL 20. (2) Q THAT WOULD BE(3) A THAT APRIL 20 DATE IS, AS I SEE IT NOW, (4) IS INCORRECT. (5) BECAUSE THE CMC DIDN'T RESTRICT PCB SALES (6) TO CLOSED SYSTEMS ON APRIL. 20. (7) IT WAS IN A MAY MEETING THAT JOHN MASON (8) SPOKE TO THEM ON. (9) Q SO THAT SHOULD BE MAY AS WELL? (10) A THIS SHOULD BE MAY 11TH. (11) Q ALL RIGHT. AND CONTINUING. (12) A MAY 11TH UP HERE IS THE DATE WHEN (13) MR. MASON MADE HIS PRESENTATION TO THE CMC. (14) IT WAS APPROVED ON THAT DATE. (15) SO THIS MAY 19TH DATE, AS IT REFERS TO (16) APPROVAL, IS INCORRECT. (17) THAT SHOULD BE THE 11TH. (18) Q IT IS ONE AND THE SAME? (19) A THIS IS THE SAME. (20) MAY 19TH IS WHEN THE EUROPEAN OPERATION (21) IN MONSANTO WAS INFORMED OF THAT DECISION. (22) THAT IS WHERE THAT DATE COMES FROM. (23) Q OKAY. (24) A ON SEPTEMBER 14TH OF 1970 THE PROGRESS (25) REPORT WAS MADE BY MR. MASON TO THE CMC AND SO THIS (26) IS ACCURATE. (27) Q OKAY. (28) A THEN IN COMPLIANCE WITH CMC'S REQUEST TO Page 2154 . (1) REPORT AGAIN IN THE FIRST QUARTER OF THE FOLLOWING (2) YEAR ON MARCH 8TH - I'M SORRY - WELL, MARCH 8TH (3) ITEM HERE SHOWS THE AMOUNT OF PCB'S THAT WERE SOLD IN (4) '69 AND HOW IT WAS REDUCED TO ALMOST HALF, FROM 75 (5) MILLION TO 45 MILLION BY 1971. (6) Q OKAY. (7) A IN MAY OF 71 IT DESCRIBES THE SALES (8) PROGRAM OF MONSANTO AS OF THAT DATE WHICH INCLUDED (9) TEXAS EASTERN. ' (10) THERE WERE SOME SELECTED CLOSED-HEAT (11) TRANSFER APPLICATIONS AND THE ELECTRICAL (12) APPLICATIONS. (13) Q THOSE WERE STILL THE APPROVED CUSTOMERS, (14) AS OF THAT TIME? (15) ARIGHT. (16) Q OKAY. DECEMBER 27TH,'71, THIS DECISION (17) WE DISCUSSED EARLIER THAT WE WOULD TERMINATE ALL PCB (18) SALES EXCEPT FOR THE ELECTRICAL APPLICATIONS AND THEN (19) PROVIDED AN OPPORTUNITY FOR TEXAS EASTERN, JANUARY (20) 14, TO SIGN THIS SPECIAL ARRANGEMENT FOR A SIX-MONTH (21) PERIOD TO ALLOW THEM TO MAKE A CHANGEOVER TO A (22) DIFFERENT MATERIAL. (23) OKAY. AND THAT IS WHAT WE DISCUSSED WITH (24) MR. BRADFORD'S COVER LETTER? (25) AYES. (26) Q THANK YOU. (27) DO YOU RECALL WE WERE TALKING ABOUT THE (28) PRODUCTION FIGURES AND MR. CUNNINGHAM'S1 11 PRESS RELEASE Page 2155 (1) OR MONSANTO'S IN WHICH MR. CUNNINGHAM'S NAME IS (2) MENTIONED? (3) AYES. (4) Q AND THERE WAS A REFERENCE TO THE (5) INTERDEPARTMENTAL TASK FORCE ON PCB'S? (6) AYES. (7) Q WHAT WAS THAT? (8) A THIS WAS A GROUP OF U.S. EMPLOYEES (9) REPRESENTING SOME KEY DEPARTMENTS AND AGENCIES IN THE (10) GOVERNMENT. (11) I RECALL THE DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE WAS (12) REPRESENTED, THE DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE, THE FOOD ` (13) AND DRUG ADMINISTRATION, THE COUNSEL FOR (14) ENVIRONMENTAL QUALITY, THE OFFICE OF SCIENCE AND (15) TECHNOLOGY OF THE EXECUTIVE OFFICE OF THE PRESIDENT. (16) THE NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ENVIRONMENTAL (17) HEALTH SCIENCES, THE DEPARTMENT OF INTERIOR. (18) IT WAS A GOOD REPRESENTATION OF SOME KEY (19) GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS AND AGENCIES. (20) Q AND WERE THEY GATHERED TOGETHER, THEN, TO (21) DISCUSS THE PCB ISSUE? (22) A YES. . (23) Q AND WHEN WAS IT CREATED? (24) A IT WAS CREATED ABOUT AUGUST OR SEPTEMBER (25) OF 1971. Page 2152 to Page 2155 Transwestern v. Monsanto WATER PCB-SD0000075920 BSA Trial Transcript [December 8,1993] XMAX(27) (26) Q AND WAS MONSANTO INVOLVED IN ANY WAY (26) THE COURT: SUSTAINED. WITH (27) Q BY MR. PREUSS: FOLLOWING THE ISSUANCE OF (27) THIS GROUP? (28) THE REPORT OF THE INTERDEPARTMENTAL TASK (28) AYES. FORCE, SIR, Page 2156 Page 2158 (1) WE WERE INVITED - MONSANTO WAS INVITED (1) WERE SALES OF PCB'S IN CONNECTION WITH THE (2) TO APPEAR BEFORE THIS GROUP IN ABOUT ELECTRICAL SEPTEMBER, (2) INDUSTRY PERMITTED? (3) OCTOBER OF 71. (3) AYES. (4) AND WE, AGAIN, APPEARED BEFORE THIS GROUP (4) Q OKAY. AND AS OF THAT TIME, SIR, WAS THAT (5) IN MAY OF 1972. (5) THE ONLY INDUSTRY IN WHICH MONSANTO WAS (6) WE MADE PRESENTATIONS TO THIS GROUP OF SELLING ITS (7) PEOPLE. (6) PRODUCTS, PCB PRODUCTS? (8) Q SO MONSANTO MADE TWO PRESENTATIONS; IS (7) AYES. (9) THAT CORRECT? (8) Q WITH RESPECT TO THE TIMELINE AND THE (10) AYES. (9) EVENTS THAT WE JUST WENT THROUGH AND THE (11) Q AND WERE YOU INVOLVED WITH BOTH OF THOSE? EVENTS THAT (12) AYES. (10) WE HAVE DISCUSSED WITH RESPECT TO THE (13) Q AND COULD YOU TAkE A LOOK AT 241, ACTIONS OF THE (14) PLEASE. (11) CMC, WERE THOSE DONE ON A VOLUNTARY BASIS (15) DO YOU RECALL WE DISCUSSED THIS THE OTHER BY (16) DAY WITH RESPECT TO THE DIAGRAM THAT (12) MONSANTO, SIR? SHOWED 1242 AND (13) A YES, EVERY ONE OF THEM. (17) ITS BREAKDOWN OF ISOMERS? (14) Q AND, MR. PAPAGEORGE, WERE YOU PROUD OF (18) AI DO. (15) THE ROLE YOU PLAYED IN MONSANTO'S HANDLING (19) Q CAN YOU IDENTIFY THIS DOCUMENT FOR US? OF THE PCB (20) A THIS DOCUMENT IS THE MATERIAL THAT WAS (16) ENVIRONMENTAL ISSUE? (21) PRESENTED TO THE INTERDEPARTMENTAL TASK (17) A YES, I AM. FORCE IN MAY (18) Q THANK YOU, SIR. (22) OF 1972. (19) A THE MORE I THINK ABOUT IT, THE MORE PROUD (23) Q AND DID THE INTERDEPARTMENTAL TASK FORCE (20) I AM. (24) ISSUE A REPORT AFTER TAKING INFORMATION (21) MR. PREUSS: NO FURTHER QUESTIONS, YOUR FROM VARIOUS HONOR. (25) SOURCES, INCLUDING MONSANTO? (22) THE COURT: MR. TALLON? (26) AYES. (23) MR. TALLON: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. (27) Q AND THAT WAS WHEN? (24) (28) AI BELIEVE THE DATE OF THAT PUBLICATION IS1 11 (25) REDIRECT EXAMINATION Page 2157 (26) BY MR. TALLON: (1) MAY 21 ST OF 1972. (27) Q MR. PAPAGEORGE, I TAKE IT FROM YOUR (2) Q AND WHAT WERE THE CONCLUSIONS, SIR, AS (28) DISCUSSION OF THE TIMELINE WITH MR. PREUSS (3) YOU UNDERSTOOD THEM? THAT WHEN (4) MR. TALLON: OBJECTION, HEARSAY. Page 2159 (5) THE COURT: SUSTAINED. (1) YOU WERE WORKING IN YOUR JOB AS MANAGER (6) Q BY MR. PREUSS: MR. PAPAGEORGE, AS PART ENVIRONMENTAL (7) OF YOUR JOB RESPONSIBILITIES IN THE MID 70'S (2) CONTROL, YOU GOT A LOT OF INFORMATION WAS IT ' ABOUT HOW MUCH (8) IMPORTANT FOR YOU TO UNDERSTAND WHAT WAS (3) PCB MONSANTO SOLD? GOING ON IN (4) AYES. (9) GOVERNMENTAL AGENCIES, BOTH HERE AND (5) Q WHO IT WAS SOLD TO? ABROAD, WITH (6) A WELL, NOT SO MUCH WHO AS THE TYPES OF (10) RESPECT TO MAKING DECISIONS WITH YOUR JOB? (7) APPLICATIONS. (11) AYES. (8) Q SO ELECTRICAL WOULD BE ONE YOU JUST (12) Q AND WAS THE INTERDEPARTMENTAL TASK (9) DISCUSSED? FORCE (10) AYES. (13) ON PCB'S A SIGNIFICANT EVENT IN TERMS OF THE (11) Q WOULD YOU SAY YOU WERE FAMILIAR WITH THE (14) DEVELOPING ISSUES ON PCB AND THE (12) GROSS SALES ON AN ANNUAL BASIS TO TYPES OF ENVIRONMENT? (13) APPLICATIONS, ROUGHLY FAMILIAR, NOT EXACT? (15) A A VERY SIGNIFICANT GROUP, YES. (14) AI HAD ACCESS TO THAT INFORMATION, YES. (16) Q AND DID YOU CONSIDER THE FINDINGS OF THAT (15) Q OKAY. LETS LOOK AT TRANSWESTERN 355. (17) GROUP AS PUBLISHED IN 1972 IMPORTANT TO YOU (16) CAN YOU SEE THAT OKAY FROM WHERE YOU ARE IN ORDER (17) SITTING? ; (18) TO CONTINUE IN YOUR JOB RESPONSIBILITIES AND (18) AYES, I CAN. MAKE (19) Q SO YOU WOULD AGREE THAT IN 1968 MONSANTO (19) DECISIONS THAT YOU FELT WERE APPROPRIATE (20) SOLD ABOUT 50 PERCENT OF ITS PCB'S TO GO FOR INTO (20) MONSANTO? (21) TRANSFORMER AND CAPACITOR FLUIDS, RIGHT? (21) A ABSOLUTELY. (22) A SIR, I WOULD HAVE TO HAVE THE TABLES TO (22) Q BASED ON THAT WHAT CONCLUSIONS WERE (23) REFRESH MY MEMORY. (23) ISSUED BY THE INTERDEPARTMENTAL TASK (24) IT'S A BIG AMOUNT, BUT I HAVE NO WAY OF FORCE, AS YOU (25) KNOWING WHETHER IT'S 50 PERCENT, 60 PERCENT. (24) UNDERSTOOD THEM TO BE, SIR? (26) Q YOU DON'T THINK THAT IS FAR OFF, THOUGH? (25) MR. TALLON: SAME OBJECTION. (27) A WELL, I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU MEAN BY "FAR Transwestern v. Monsanto Page 2155 to Page 2159 WATER PCB-SD0000075921 BSA Trial Transcript [December 8,1993] XMAX(28) (28) OFF." NUMBER IS TOO______________________________ , Page 2160 Page 2162 (1) HOW CLOSE DO YOU WANT THESE NUMBERS? (1) FAR BACK. SO I CAN'T SEE IT. (2) Q WELL, I'M ASKING YOU BASED ON ALL THE (3) INFORMATION YOU JUST SAID YOU HAD ABOUT (2) THE COURT: 781. (3) MR. TALLON: 781. THANK YOU. SALES OF PCB (4) Q WHERE WOULD I PUT THE POST-IT FOR THE (4) PRODUCTS, WHETHER YOU THINK THAT IS ROUGHLY (5) ACCURATE. (6) A "ROUGHLY" IS A GOOD DESCRIPTION, YES. (5) DATE THAT MONSANTO GAVE A WRITTEN WARNING TO USERS OF (6) AROCLOR 1242? (7) CAN YOU HELP ME WITH THAT? (7) Q OKAY. PLASTICIZERS, IS THAT ROUGHLY (8) ACCURATE, 17 PERCENT OF SALES? (8) A A WRITTEN WARNING? (9) Q YES. (9) AI THOUGHT IT WAS MORE THAN THAT. (10) BUT UNLESS I SEE THOSE NUMBERS AGAIN, I (10) A OF WHAT KIND, SIR? (11) Q LIKE THE LETTER THAT WENT OUT TO USERS OF (11) JUST(12) ALL I KNOW IS WHEN WE TERMINATED IN (13) AUGUST OF 70 THESE SALES TO THE OPEN USES, (12) 1254 AND 1260 IN FEBRUARY OF 1970. (13) WHERE WOULD I PUT THIS FOR THE DATE YOU (14) SENT A LETTER TO USERS OF 1242? AND THE (14) SALES IN 71 REFLECTED AN ALMOST 50-PERCENT (15) A I DON'T RECALL SUCH A LETTER. (16) Q BUT YOU THOUGHT 1242 WAS SUCH A PROBLEM TOTAL (15) REDUCTION. (16) MOST OF THAT REDUCTION WAS IN THE (17) THAT YOU TOOK IT AWAY FROM NCR, RIGHT? (18) A CERTAINLY. (19) THAT IS AN OPEN SYSTEM, YES. (17) PLASTICIZERS CATEGORY. (18) SO THE 17 PERCENT DOESN'T QUITE MATCH (20) Q THEY WERE A PRETTY RESPONSIBLE COMPANY, (21) NCR, RIGHT? (19) WITH MY RECOLLECTION OF THE DEGREE OF LOSS IN (22) AYES. SALES (20) Q SO HOW ABOUT ALL OTHER PRODUCTS LIKE (23) Q NOW, YOU TOOK AWAY PYDRAUL-AC FROM USERS (21) PYDRAULS, MISCELLANEOUS USES NOT INCLUDED (24) OF HYDRAULIC PUMPS, RIGHT? IN (22) PLASTICIZERS OR HEAT-TRANSFER FLUIDS? DO (25) A YES. ` (26) Q THAT IS BECAUSE YOU UNDERSTOOD THAT WHEN YOU THINK (23) THAT IS ABOUT 30 PERCENT OR SO? (27) THEY WERE BEING USED, HOSES COULD BREAK OR SEALS (24) A THAT IS REASONABLE, YES. (25) Q OKAY. HEAT-TRANSFER FLUIDS, THAT IS THE (28) COULD LEAK AND YOU COULD WIND UP WITH SOME PYDRAUL-AC (26) STUFF YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT, LIKE TO FRY POTATO (27) CHIPS AND SUCH? Page 2163 (1) ON THE FLOOR, RIGHT? (2) A PYDRAUL-AC? (28) A ALL RIGHT.1 11 (3) NO, IT'S MORE APT TO BE THE FIVE-CHLORINE Page 2161 (4) AND HIGHER PCB-TYPE THAT WAS IN THAT (1) Q YOU THINK THAT IS ABOUT RIGHT? PARTICULAR (2) A ABOUT RIGHT, YES. (3) Q HOW ABOUT TURBINOL-153, DO YOU THINK THAT (5) FLUID, ENDING UP IN THE COMPRESSED AIR THAT THE (4) REPRESENTED A HALF-PERCENT OF MONSANTO'S (6) COMPRESSOR WAS PUMPING. SALES? (7) Q AND THAT WAS UNACCEPTABLE TO MONSANTO? (5) A'WELL, AS I REMEMBER THE TOTAL POOL - I (8) AYES. (6) WOULD HAVE TO DO SOME MENTAL ARITHMETIC (9) Q AND YOU DIDN'T WANT THE PCB'S OUT? HERE, IF I'VE (10) A THE 1254, YES. (7) GIVEN SOME TIME. (8) THE TOTAL SALES WERE APPROACHING 80 (11) Q YOU DIDN'T WANT THEM TO GO AROUND THE AIR (12) IN THE AIR COMPRESSOR? (9) MILLION POUNDS OR 75 MILLION POUNDS OF PCB'S (13) A THAT'S RIGHT. IN '68. (14) Q WELL, DID YOU CONSIDER, WHEN YOU PUT (10) THE SALES OF TURBINOL WERE, LET'S SAY, A (11) QUARTER MILLION POUNDS OR THEREABOUTS. (15) TEXAS EASTERN OR ANY OTHER COMPANY ON THE APPROVED (12) AND OF THAT, DON'T HOLD ME TO THIS (13) BECAUSE MY MEMORY IS NOT THAT GOOD, OF THAT (16) CUSTOMER LIST WHAT YOU TOLD US ABOUT YESTERDAY, THAT AMOUNT (14) THAT WAS SOLD AS TURBINOL, AS I REMEMBER, (17) TURBINOL-153 WAS GETTING INTO THE GAS STREAM OF AN ABOUT 90 (18) INTERSTATE NATURAL GAS PIPELINE? (15) PERCENT OF THAT AMOUNT IS A PCB COMPONENT. (19) DID YOU THINK THAT WAS A PRETTY OPEN USE? (16) Q 90 PERCENT OF TURBINOL? (20) A YES, BUT THIS PRESENCE OF PCB'S IN THE (17) AI BELIEVE SO. (21) GAS STREAM WAS NOT CONTINUOUS, IN MY (18) Q OKAY. UNDERSTANDING. (19) ASO(20) Q GE AND WESTINGHOUSE WERE VERY BIG (21) CUSTOMERS FOR PCB PRODUCTS, RIGHT? (22) IT OCCURRED ON OCCASION. AND IT (23) CONCENTRATED IN THE LIQUID THAT COLLECTED IN THE (22) A YES, THEY WERE, UH-HUH. (23) Q ALL RIGHT. LETS HOLD THAT THOUGHT FOR A (24) SYSTEM AND THAT LIQUID WAS DRAINED AT STEPS ALONG THE (24) SECOND. (25) LET ME SEE IF I CAN TAKE A LOOK AT YOUR (26) TIMELINE. (27) OKAY. THAT IS THE TIMELINE YOU WERE JUST (28) DISCUSSING WITH MR. PREUSS, THE EXHIBIT (25) WAY AND PROPERLY HANDLED. (26) THERE IS NOTHING TO TELL ME THAT THE (27) PCB'S WERE STILL IN THE GAS STREAM. (28) I DON'T HAVE THAT INFORMATION. Page 2164 ~ Page 2159 to Page 2164 Transwestern v. Monsanto WATER PCB-SD0000075922 bsa Trial Transcript [December 8,19931 XMAX(29) (1) Q YOU KNEW IT WAS GETTING INTO THE (2) PIPELINE? (3) AYES. BUT I ALSO KNOW IT'S VERY SOLUBLE (4) IN CONDENSATE, VERY SOLUBLE. (5) Q YOU KNEW IT WAS VERY STICKY SO IT COULD (6) STICK TO THE INSIDE OF THE PIPELINE WALLS, RIGHT? (7) A NOT WITH GOOD SOLVENT LIKE CONDENSATE. (4) WOULD YOU AGREE? (5) AYES. (6) Q OKAY. AND DURING 1967 AT WHAT POINT DID (7) YOU CHANGE YOUR LABELS FOR 1254 AND 1260? (8) A THERE WAS NO LABEL CHANGE IN 1967. (9) Q YOU WERE CONCERNED, THEN, ABOUT THE 5/6 (10) CHLORINES, THAT IS WHAT WAS BEING LOOKED AT? (8) IN FACT SOLVENTS HAVE BEEN USED IN THE (11) AYES. (9) LABORATORY IN PREPARING THE INSTRUMENTS TO ANALYZE. . (10) Q DID YOU THINK ABOUT ALL OF THESE ISSUES (11) WHEN YOU PUT TEXAS EASTERN ON THE APPROVED CUSTOMER (12) LIST? (13) A DID I PERSONALLY THINK ABOUT THEM? (14) Q YES. YOU PUT CUSTOMERS ON THE APPROVED (12) Q AT WHAT POINT IN 1968 DID YOU CHANGE THE (13) LABELS? (14) A STILL DIDN'T HAVE ENOUGH INFORMATION TO (15) WARRANT A CHANGE. (16) Q AT WHAT POINT IN 1969 DID YOU CHANGE THE (17) LABELS? (18) AWEDIDNT. (19) Q SO YOU CHANGED THE LABELS STARTING IN, (15) CUSTOMER LIST, RIGHT? (20) WHAT IS THAT CORRECTED DATE, MAY OF '70? (16) A NO, OTHERS DID, AND THEN I WAS ASKED ON A (17) CASE-BY-CASE BASIS TO ADD TO THAT LIST, YES. (18) Q DIDN'T THE LETTER WE JUST SAW SAY, FROM (19) MR. CUNNINGHAM - FROM MR. GOSSAGE TO MR. (21) A CORRECT. (22) Q '67, '68, '69, SO THREE AND A HALF YEARS (23) LATER? (24) AYES. CUNNINGHAM, (20) SAY THAT PUTTING A CUSTOMER ON THE APPROVED CUSTOMER (21) LIST WAS SUBJECT TO YOUR APPROVAL? (25) Q WHAT INFORMATION DIDN'T YOU HAVE? (26) A THE WIDESPREAD FINDINGS OF PCB'S AS (27) DISTINGUISHED FROM CALIFORNIA AND SWEDEN AND MONSANTO (22) A ADDITIONAL CUSTOMERS ON THAT LIST, YES. (23) Q YOU KNEW THAT TEXAS EASTERN WAS ON THE (28) PLANTS WHICH EXISTED UP THROUGH NEAR THE END OF '69. (24) LIST, RIGHT? (25) AYES, I DID. (26) Q AND ALSO COLUMBIA GULF? (27) AYES. (28) Q OKAY. Page 2165 (1) SO THAT DATE UP THERE WHERE IT SAYS, (2) "MAY, 1971, PCB CUSTOMERS REDUCED TO TE," YOU WOULD Page 2167 (1) THAT IS JUST ABOUT IT, WHEN YOU THINK (2) ABOUT IT, WHEN YOU SAW THAT LIST THAT DR. TUCKER PUT (3) TOGETHER AND REVIEWED IT. (4) Q YEAH. (5) A THAT DOESN'T GIVE YOU THE GOOD BROAD (6) PICTURE OF THE WHOLE WORLD, IF YOU WILL. (7) IT'S VERY SKETCHY. (3) HAVE TO ADD TO THAT COLUMBIA GULF? (4) A COLUMBIA GULF WAS' NOT AN ACTIVE CUSTOMER (5) IN MAY, 1971. (6) THEY WERE APPROVED. (7) THEY HAD BOUGHT IT AT ONE TIME, STOPPED (8) BUYING. BUT THEY WERE ON THE LIST IN CASE THEY (9) WANTED TO BUY AGAIN. (10) Q SO THAT IS WRONG? (11) THEY WERE ON THE APPROVED CUSTOMER LIST, (12) SO CUSTOMERS WEREN'T REDUCED TO TE. THERE WAS (13) ANOTHER CUSTOMER FOR TURBINOL? (8) IT'S NOT ENOUGH TO GIVE YOU A GOOD BASIS (9) FOR CHANGING A LABEL OF A PRODUCT THAT IS DISTRIBUTED (10) SO WIDELY. (11) Q WELL, ISN'T THE REAL REASON THAT YOU (12) DIDN'T CHANGE THE LABELS IN THOSE YEARS BECAUSE IF (13) YOU HAD DONE THAT YOU WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN ABLE TO (14) PROTECT THE CONTINUED SALES AND USES OF THOSE (15) PRODUCTS? (14) AI DON'T KNOW HOW YOU CAN MENTION A (16) AI DON'T SEE HOW THAT WOULD HAVE AFFECTED (15) CUSTOMER WHO WAS NOT AN ACTIVE CUSTOMER IN (17) THE CONTINUED SALES. SUCH A (16) TIMELINE. (17) Q WERE THEY ON THE APPROVED LIST OR NOT? (18) ADDING A LABEL DIDN'T STOP THE SALES (19) LATER. (20) Q AT WHAT POINT DURING 1967 DID YOU WRITE (18) A YES, BUT THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN GIVEN THAT (19) SAME NOTICE WHEN THEY ASKED FOR A SHIPMENT. (20) Q OKAY. 'THE SAME NOTICE," YOU MEAN THE (21) HOLD-HARMLESS LETTER? (22) AYES. (23) Q OKAY. AND THAT IS THE LETTER THAT SAYS, (24) "IF YOU CONTINUE TO BUY THIS STUFF FROM US (21) TO CUSTOMERS FOR 1254 AND 1260 AND SAY, 'THIS STUFF (22) IS BEING FOUND IN THE ENVIRONMENT'? (23) A WE DIDN'T WRITE THEM THEN. (24) Q OR'68 OR 69? (25) A WELL, '69 THERE WAS SOME CORRESPONDENCE. (26) Q HAVE WE SEEN THAT? YOU WON'T (25) SUE US FOR IT'? (27) A IN MARCH OF '69 THERE WAS SOME (2B) CORRESPONDENCE STARTED. ______________ (26) A THAT'S PART OF IT. (27) Q LETS LOOK AT THE TIMELINE, GOING BACK A (28) LITTLE TO'66. *1 Page 2166 (1) I GUESS WE HAVE PRETTY WELL ESTABLISHED (2) BY THIS POINT THAT MONSANTO FIRST LEARNED ABOUT WHAT (3) WIDMARK AND JENSEN WERE DOING AT THE END OF 1966. Transwestern v. Monsanto Page 2164 to Page 2167 WATER PCB-SD0000075923 BSA Trial Transcript [December 8,1993] XMAX(30) Page 2168 (1) Q TO WHAT CUSTOMER? (2) AI DON'T KNOW THE WHOLE LIST, BUT THERE (3) WERE MANY. (4) Q SO WE SHOULD LOOK FOR THAT PIECE OF (5) CORRESPONDENCE IN THIS CASE? (6) A OH, I DON'T KNOW. ... (7) IT'S NOT FOR ME TO DECIDE, SIR. (8) I DON'T KNOW IF YOU NEED IT OR NOT. (9) Q OKAY. NOVEMBER OF 1966, WIDMARK AND (10) JENSEN'S REPORT COMES OUT AND MONSANTO FINDS OUT (11) ABOUT IT, CORRECT? (12) AYES. (13) Q AND DAVID WOOD GOES OVER TO VISIT WITH (14) THEM IN SWEDEN? (15) AYES. (16) Q AND YOU KNOW THAT HE SENT A PRESS RELEASE (17) FROM THE LKB COMPANY TO ST. LOUIS, RIGHT? (18) AYES. (19) Q AND THE PRESS RELEASE WAS ABOUT THEIR (20) MACHINE, THE GC MASS MACHINE, THE LKB 9000? (21) AYES. (22) Q THE VERY ONE WIDMARK AND JENSEN HAD USED? (23) AYES. (24) Q TO DETECT THE PRESENCE OF PCB'S IN THE (25) ENVIRONMENT? (26) AYES. (27) Q SO THE FIRST THING THAT HAPPENED WAS THAT (28) SOMEBODY WENT OVER TO THE LKB 9000 AND Page 2170 . (1) MONITOR THERE BECAUSE 1 WANT TO KEEP THAT ONE EXHIBIT (2) UP, MR. PAPAGEORGE. (3) AYES, SIR. (4) Q I WILL JUST ZOOM OVER TO THE DATE COLUMN (5) AS MUCH AS I CAN. (6) ITS HARD TO FIT THAT ALL ON THE SCREEN. (7) A WHAT EXHIBIT IS THAT? (8) Q THAT'S 110. (9) CAN YOU REACH IT WITH THAT TIMELINE IN (10) THE WAY? (11) AI HAVE IT. (12) Q ARE YOU BACK AT THE LANDSCAPE CHART, THE (13) CHART THAT GOES ACROSS THE PAGE RATHER THAN UP AND (14) DOWN? (15) AYES, I AM. (16) Q OKAY. SO THAT WHOLE FIRST PAGE IS A (17) SERIES OF TESTS SHOWING PCB'S PRESENT IN THE (18) ENVIRONMENT BUT NONE BY TUCKER, RIGHT? (19) A VERY TRUE, YES. (20) Q OKAY. SO IF YOU FLIP THE PAGE TO THE (21) SECOND PAGE, THE FIRST ONE THAT IS ON THERE SHOWING (22) WORK BY MONSANTO OR SCOTT TUCKER, THAT WOULD BE (23) FEBRUARY,'69? (24) A CORRECT. (25) Q OKAY. SO WHAT YOU ARE SAYING IS THAT (26) DURING '67 YOU REALLY HAD TO PULL THE INFORMATION PURCHASED ONE? Page 2169 (1) A NO. THAT IS NOT A FACTUAL STATEMENT. (2) Q AND THE NEXT THING THAT HAPPENED WAS YOU (27) TOGETHER AND GET ROLLING ON A PROGRAM, RIGHT? (28) ARIGHT.1 11 Page 2171 (3) HIRED WIDMARK AND JENSEN TO HELP YOU LEARN HOW TO RUN (4) IT? (5) A THAT'S NOTTRUE.NO. (6) Q OKAY. IN FACT, YOU DIDN'T DO ANYTHING IN (1) Q OKAY. BUT IN'68 YOU WERE PRETTY (2) CONCERNED ABOUT THE PRESENCE OF 5/6 CHLORINES IN THE (3) ENVIRONMENT? (4) A JUST AS WE WERE IN '67. (7) 1967? (8) A WE DID A LOT OF THINGS. (9) WE HIRED SCOTT TUCKER. (10) WE MODIFIED THE EQUIPMENT WE HAD. (11) WE PLACED ON ORDER A MORE SOPHISTICATED (12) MACHINE THAN THE LKB 9000. (5) Q OKAY. AND YOU ALWAYS KNEW THAT 1242 HAD (6) AT LEAST 10 PERCENT OF 5/6 CHLORINES IN IT, RIGHT? (7) AYES, SIR. (8) Q THAT IS THE VERY REASON YOU TOOK IT AWAY (9) FROM NCR? (13) Q IN 1968? (14) A IT TOOK THAT LONG TO MANUFACTURE THIS (10) A COUPLED WITH THE EASY ENTRY INTO THE (11) ENVIRONMENT THROUGH THE PAPER COATING. (15) SOPHISTICATED PIECE OF EQUIPMENT. (12) THAT IS WHAT REALLY MAKES IT DIFFERENT (16) Q WHEN WAS THAT ORDERED, MR. PAPAGEORGE? (13) FROM OTHER 1242 USES. (17) AI DON'T KNOW THE EXACT DATE. BUT IT WAS (18) DELIVERED ABOUT '68,1 REMEMBER. (19) Q AND THE FIRST TEST RESULTS THAT WE SEE (20) FROM SCOTT TUCKER IN EXHIBIT 110 ARE IN FEBRUARY OF (21) '69, AREN'T THEY? (22) DID IT TAKE THAT LONG FOR THEM TO START (14) Q WHEN YOU FOUND OUT THAT IT WAS GETTING (15) INTO THE NATURAL GAS PIPELINES, DID YOU THINK THAT (16) WAS A PROBLEM? (17) A NO. BECAUSE I WAS ASSURED THAT THE (18) CONDENSATE WAS COLLECTED AT STATIONS ALONG THE ROUTE (23) RUNNING TESTS? (19) OF THE PIPELINE AND MANAGED PROPERLY. (24) AI DON'T KNOW ABOUT YOUR DATES, SIR. (25) I WOULD TO HAVE SEE THAT LIST AGAIN. (26) Q LETS CHECK THE FIRST PAGE. I DON'T WANT (27) TO GET THE CHRONOLOGY WRONG. (28) I GUESS WE WILL HAVE TO LOOK AT JUST ONE (20) SO WHY WOULD I BE CONCERNED? (21) HERE IS A CONDENSATE WHICH IS LIKE A (22) MINERAL SPIRIT. IT'S A SOLVENT WHICH IS - IT WORKS (23) VERY WELL WITH PCB'S. (24) IN FACT, SOLVENTS ARE USED IN THE (25) LABORATORY TO EXTRACT PCB'S FROM SAMPLES. (26) Q NOW, YOU WERE TAKING THE EFFLUENT, THE (27) DISCHARGE FROM YOUR PLANT, DOWN TO 10 PARTS PER (28) BILLION, RIGHT? ` Page 2168 to Page 2171 Transwestern v. Monsanto WATER PCB-SD0000075924 BSA Trial Transcript [December B, 1993] XMAX(31) Page 2172 (1) A IN WATER, YES, SIR. (2) Q DID YOU THINK THAT THE CONDENSATE WAS (3) CLEANING OUT THE PIPELINE TO THE LEVEL OF 10 PARTS (4) PER BILLION? (5) AI DONT KNOW HOW TO MEASURE CONDENSATE ON (6) A PIPELINE, SIR. (7) YOU MEAN WEIGH THE STEEL AND TRY TO (8) Q YOU TELL ME. (9) A THAT IS NOT AN EXPRESSION USED WITH (10) COATINGS ON PIPELINES. (11) Q YOU CANT GET INSIDE A PIPELINE, CAN YOU? (12) YOU CAN ONLY SEND MACHINERY IN THERE, (13) PIGS? (14) A UNLESS IT'S A PRETTY BIG ONE AND SOMEBODY (15) WANTS TO CRAWL IN IT. (16) BUT I DONT KNOW WHY YOU WOULD. (17) Q YOU CANT PHYSICALLY ENTER A NATURAL GAS (18) PIPELINE? (19) AI DONT KNOW THAT MUCH ABOUT PIPELINES. (20) Q OKAY. DID YOU THINK IT WAS POSSIBLE (21) BASED ON WHAT YOU KNEW ABOUT PIPELINES WHEN YOU WERE (22) TALKING ABOUT PUTTING TURBINOL OR SELLING TURBINOL, (23) THAT THE PCB'S WOULDN'T BE REMOVED TO THE 10 PARTS (24) PER BILLION OR 50 PARTS PER BILLION OR HIGHER? (25) A FROM THE SURFACE OF THE PIPELINE? (26) Q YEAH. (27) A IS THAT WHAT YOU MEAN? (28) Q YES.___ Page 2173 (1) A WELL, THAT IS NOT THE WAY CONTAMINATION (2) IS PERCEIVED IN THE ENVIRONMENT. (3) WHAT IS CONTAINED INSIDE A STEEL MATERIAL (4) LIKE A PIPELINE CAN'T BE MEASURED. IT WOULD BE (5) PRESENT OUT IN THE ENVIRONMENT. (6) I DONT UNDERSTAND YOUR QUESTION, I (7) SUPPOSE. (8) Q LETS TALK ABOUT "OPEN AND CLOSED," FOR A (9) SECOND. (10) THOSE ARE TERMS YOU HAVE USED IN YOUR (11) TESTIMONY. (12) AYES. (13) Q LETS FOCUS PARTICULARLY ON ELECTRICAL (14) COMPANIES LIKE GE. (15) YOU HAVE MET WITH THEM. THEY ARE A BIG (16) CUSTOMER? (17) AYES. (18) Q OKAY. YOU NEVER MET WITH TEXAS EASTERN? (19) A THAT IS TRUE. (20) Q OR COLUMBIA GULF? (21) A THAT'S TRUE. (22) Q OR TRANSWESTERN? (23) A THAT'S RIGHT. (24) Q THE WAY THAT THE ELECTRICAL TRANSFORMER (25) MANUFACTURERS USED YOUR PRODUCT WAS THEY HAD A STEEL (26) VESSEL, A CONTAINER, RIGHT? (27) AYES. (28) Q AND THEY FILLED THAT WITH PCB FLUID, Page 2174 (1) CORRECT? (2) A WELL, NOT A HUNDRED PERCENT PCB, BUT SOME (3) PCB'S WERE PRESENT, YES. (4) Q OKAY. AND THEN THE CONTAINER WAS WELDED (5) SHUT? (6) A SOME WERE WELDED AND SOME WERE FLANGED. (7) Q NO VALVES OR HOSES OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT? (8) A NO. (9) BUT THERE ARE WIRES THAT COME OUT OF THE (10) SYSTEM. (11) Q BUT THERE IS NO MEANS FOR FLUID TO (12) ESCAPE? (13) A YES, THERE ARE. (14) THERE ARE SEALS AROUND THOSE WIRES AND IN (15) THE GASKET ON THE FLAP. (16) Q SO FLUID COULD ESCAPE FROM A TRANSFORMER? (17) A OH, UNLESS THE GASKET IS PROPER AND (18) TIGHTENED AND THE SEAL AROUND THE WIRES IS INTACT, (19) YES, IT COULD ESCAPE. (20) Q SO THAT MEANS EVEN A CLOSED SYSTEM CAN BE (21) AN OPEN SYSTEM? (22) A WELL, THAT IS SORT OF CONTRADICTORY IN (23) TERMS, SIR. (24) ITS EITHER ONE OR THE OTHER. (25) A CLOSED SYSTEM IS ONE IN WHICH THE FLUID (26) UNDER THE CONDITIONS INTENDED STAYS IN THE VESSEL, (27) THE TANK. (28) Q OKAY. SO IF A FLUID COULD ESCAPE FROM A Page 2175 (1) CLOSED TRANSFORMER, THAT WOULDN'T MEAN IT HAS THE (2) POSSIBILITY OF BECOMING AN OPEN SYSTEM TO YOU? (3) A NO, NOT BY THE DEFINITION USED TO HELP US (4) MANAGE THIS SITUATION. (5) Q OKAY. THEY WERE - GE AND WESTINGHOUSE (6) WERE BUYING 1254 AND 1260? (7) AYES. (8) Q AND THERE WAS NO AVAILABLE SUBSTITUTE FOR (9) WHAT THEY WERE USING YOUR PRODUCTS FOR? (10) A THAT IS TRUE. (11) Q THEY COULDN'T GO TO ANOTHER COMPANY AND (12) SAY, "MONSANTO WON'T SELL US THIS STUFF SO WE NEED (13) YOUR STUFF," RIGHT? (14) A WELL, YOU MEAN A DIFFERENT STUFF FOR THE (15) SECOND(16) Q YEAH, THAT IS WHAT I MEAN. (17) A AT THAT TIME, NO, THEY COULD NOT. (18) Q BUT YOU DID KNOW THAT THERE WERE OTHER (19) LUBRICATING FLUIDS THAT COULD BE USED IN GAS (20) TURBINES? (21) AYES, WE DID. (22) Q CELLULUBE WAS ONE, I THINK WE MENTIONED (23) IN THE TESTIMONY. (24) A YOU MENTIONED IT. I HADN'T HEARD OF IT. (25) QFYRQUEL? (26) A FYRQUELI HAD HEARD OF. (27) Q MINERAL OILS WERE USED? (28) AYES.; Transwestern v. Monsanto Page 2172 to Page 2175 WATER PCB-SD0000075925 BSA Trial Transcript [December 8,1993] XMAX(32) Page 2176 (1) Q OKAY. WHAT IS A HYDRAULIC SYSTEM? (2) IS THAT CLOSED OR OPENED? (3) A BY DESIGN ITS A CLOSED SYSTEM. (4) IF IT IS ABUSED OR UNDER MAINTAINED, OR (5) NEGLECTED, IF YOU WILL, IT CAN LEAD TO LOSS TO THE (6) ENVIRONMENT. (7) AT THAT POINT IT'S REALLY A POORLY (8) MAINTAINED, POORLY OPERATED CLOSED SYSTEM. (9) Q SO YOU TOLD YOUR HYDRAULIC CUSTOMERS, Page 2178 (1) SEALS WOULD FAIL ON GAS TURBINES? (2) AYES. (3) Q AND THAT THE TURBINOL WOULD GET IN THERE? (4) A IN WHERE, SIR? (5) Q IN THE PIPELINE? (6) AYES. (7) Q AND THAT THE PIPELINE WAS HEADED OUT (8) TOWARDS CALIFORNIA IN TRANSWESTERN'S CASE? (9) A YEAH. (10) "YOU WILL HAVE NOTHING TO WORRY ABOUT. YOU (10) Q OKAY. AND THE PIPELINE GOES SOMEWHERE? CAN (11) CONTINUE TO USE OUR PRODUCT BECAUSE YOU (11) A IT DOES, CERTAINLY. (12) Q SURE. OKAY. ARE (12) RESPONSIBLE COMPANIES"? (13) A EARLY ON THAT WAS THE SITUATION, AS LONG (14) AS THEY DID WHAT WAS RIGHT AND KEEP PCB'S AWAY FROM (15) THE ENVIRONMENT. (16) Q BUT YOU PULLED HYDRAULIC FLUIDS BECAUSE (13) LET ME JUST STOP YOU FOR A SECOND ON THAT (14) ISSUE OF TRANSWESTERN, MR. PAPAGEORGE. (15) LET ME ASK YOU TO TURN AROUND AND GET ONE (16) OF THE BLACK BINDERS, DEFENDANTS EXHIBIT 769. (17) ITS A BIG, THICK EXHIBIT. (18) WHAT YOU NEED TO DO IS GO TO THE VERY (17) YOU KNEW THAT EVEN WELL-MAINTAINED MACHINERY BREAKS (18) DOWN SOMETIMES, STUFF HAPPENS, RIGHT? (19) A THAT'S TRUE. we also knew that in some (20) INSTANCES IT WAS DIFFICULT TO CONDUCT THE REPAIRS. (21) NECESSARY TO KEEP IT TIGHT. (22) THE COURT: MR. TALLON, WE WILL TAKE THE (19) BACK OF THE BOOK, ALL THE WAY AT THE END. (20) A THE VERY LAST OF THAT EXHIBIT? (21) Q THE VERY LAST OF THE EXHIBIT. (22) A ALL RIGHT. (23) Q AND THERE IS A SERIES OF SALES SUMMARIES (24) IN ALPHABETICAL ORDER. (25) YOU SHOULD FIND THE ONE THAT SAYS (26) 'TRANSWESTERN PIPELINE." (23) AFTERNOON BREAK AT THIS POINT. (24) LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, WE WILL BE IN (27) MAYBE I COULD BE A LITTLE HELP THERE, (28) MR. PAPAGEORGE. 1 11 (25) RECESS UNTIL THREE O'CLOCK. (26) PLEASE RETURN AT THAT TIME. (27) (RECESS.) Page 2179 (1) AI WOULD APPRECIATE THAT. (2) THANK YOU. (28) THE COURT: AND RESUMING. Page 2177 (1) COUNSEL, WE NEED TO COMPLETE THIS WITNESS (3) Q I'M REFERRING YOU TO THE PAGE THAT SAYS, (4) "SALES SUMMARY, ALL PCB PRODUCTS, TRANSWESTERN (2) BY FIVE BEFORE 4:00. (3) MR. TALLON: THANK YOU. (5) PIPELINE, CORONA NEW MEXICO, 1954 TO 1977." (6) ARE YOU WITH ME? (4) THE COURT: GO AHEAD, MR. TALLON. (5) Q BY MR. TALLON: MR. PAPAGEORGE, WE WERE (6) TALKING ABOUT OPEN SYSTEMS AND CLOSED (7) A I SEE THAT, YES. (8) Q OKAY. DID YOU KNOW THAT THAT DOCUMENT (9) WAS PREPARED BY MONSANTO? SYSTEMS. (7) WE WERE TALKING ABOUT TRANSFORMERS. THEY (8) ARE WELDED OR BOLTED SHUT, THEY CAN LEAK? (9) A THE POSSIBILITY IS THERE, YES. (10) Q OKAY. WE TALKED A COUPLE MINUTES AGO (11) ABOUT - WE STARTED TALKING A COUPLE MINUTES AGO (12) ABOUT HYDRAULIC SYSTEMS, THEY CAN LEAK, TOO? (10) MR. PREUSS: OBJECTION, NO FOUNDATION. (11) THE COURT: SUSTAINED. (12) Q BY MR. TALLON: HAD YOU EVER SEEN THAT (13) BEFORE? (14) A NO, SIR. (15) Q HAD YOU EVER SEEN COMPILATIONS OF (16) CUSTOMERS BEFORE? (17) A WILL YOU HELP ME WITH "COMPILATION OF (18) CUSTOMERS"? (13) A CERTAINLY. (14) Q THEY DON'T JUST LEAK BECAUSE OF BAD (15) MAINTENANCE? (19) I HAVE SEEN SO MANY CUSTOMER LISTS. (20) Q A COMPILATION THAT CONTAINS ALL THE NAMES (21) OF THE CUSTOMERS? (16) A NOT NECESSARILY. (17) Q SOMETIMES A HOSE CAN JUST LET GO? (22) A I HAVE SEEN A LIST OF SOME CUSTOMERS. (23) I DON'T KNOW IF I HAVE EVER SEEN A LIST (18) AYES. (19) Q AND THAT IS THE HOSE THAT IS CARRYING THE (20) HYDRAULIC FLUID AROUND IN CIRCULATIONS? (24) OF ALL CUSTOMERS. (25) Q EVER SEEN ONE LIKE THIS? (26) A SIMILAR IN FORMAT. (21) AYES. (22) Q IT JUST HAPPENS? (27) Q EVER SEE ONE FOR TRANSWESTERN LIKE THIS? (28) A NO, SIR. (23) AYES. (24) Q SOMETIMES YOU MAINTAIN YOUR CAR, YOU TAKE (25) IT TO THE SHOP WHEN YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO AND YOU GO (26) OUT IN THE MORNING AND IT JUST DOESN'T START? (27) A THAT HAPPENS. (28) Q OKAY. AND YOU KNEW THAT SOMETIMES THAT Page 2176 to Page 2179 Transwestern v. Monsanto WATER PCB-SD0000075926 BSA Trial Transcript [December 8,1993] XMAX(33) Page 2180 (1) Q OKAY. LET ME ASK YOU TO LOOK AT (2) TRANSWESTERN 18. (3) A1 HAVE IT. (4) Q AND JUST FOR THE RECORD, WHAT IS THAT, (5) AGAIN? (6) A THIS IS A MONSANTO TECHNICAL BULLETIN Page 2182 (1) AI HAVE IT. (2) Q OKAY. ARE YOU ON THAT PAGE? (3) A YES, I HAVE IT. (4) Q DID YOU KNOW WHEN DR. KELLER, MR. WHEELER (5) AND DR. RICHARD VISITED WITH VARIOUS SCIENTISTS IN (7) ENTITLED "FIRE-RESISTANTTURBINE LUBRICANT." (8) IT'S ON OS-81. (9) Q AND THE DATE OF THAT IS, RIGHT AT THE (10) TOP, NOVEMBER 11, 1958? (11) A CORRECT. (12) Q DID YOU KNOW THAT IN 1958 TRANSWESTERN (13) DIDN'T EXIST? (14) AI DONT KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT (15) TRANSWESTERN. (16) Q YOU DONT KNOW WHETHER ANYBODY AT (6) EUROPE, ONE OF THE THINGS THEY WERE TOLD WAS THAT (7) GOVERNMENT LABORATORIES IN THE UK HAVE FOUND AS HIGH (8) AS 900 PARTS PER MILLION PCB'S IN CERTAIN PRODUCTS (9) AND THAT THEY COMMENTED THAT THE USE OF ONE MILLION (10) GALLONS OF HIGH PRESSURE OIL AS A LUBRICANT IS USED (17) TRANSWESTERN EVER SAW THIS? (18) AI DONT KNOW. (19) Q SO WHETHER THEY GOT THIS INFORMATION IS (20) SOMETHING YOU WOULDN'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT? (21) A THAT IS CORRECT. (22) Q ALL RIGHT. HOW ABOUT TURNING TO (23) TRANSWESTERN 14. (24) AI HAVE IT. (25) Q THAT IS THE LETTER FROM DR. KELLY THAT (26) YOU WERE TESTIFYING ABOUT YESTERDAY? (27) A YES, SIR. (28) Q THAT IS ALSO DATED, WHAT, 1958, RIGHT? Page 2181 (1) AYES, SIR. (2) Q AND YOU WOULDNT KNOW WHETHER (3) TRANSWESTERN EXISTED THEN? (4) A LIKE I SAID, I KNOW NOTHING ABOUT (5) TRANSWESTERN. (6) Q OKAY. AND YOU WOULDN'T KNOW IF ANYBODY (7) WHO EVER WORKED FOR THE TRANSWESTERN PIPELINE COMPANY . (8) EVER SAW THIS? (9) AI DON'T KNOW. (10) Q OKAY. AND THAT, I SUPPOSE, WOULD BE THE (11) CASE FOR THE OTHER DOCUMENTS THAT MR. PREUSS SHOWED (12) YOU ADDRESSED TO TEXAS EASTERN? (13) A AS IT RELATES TO TRANSWESTERN? (14) Q YEAH. (15) A YES, SIR, UH-HUH. (16) Q LET ME SHOW YOU - WHY DON'T YOU TURN TO (17) EXHIBIT 90. (11) IN THE UK PER YEAR AND THAT THAT COULD EXPLAIN THOSE (12) CONCENTRATIONS? (13) A I WAS AWARE OF THAT IN EARLY 1970, YES, (14) SIR. (15) Q NOW, TURBINOL IS A HIGH PRESSURE OIL USED (16) AS A LUBRICANT? (17) AYES. (18) Q OKAY. AND YOU WOULDN'T ASSUME THAT WHERE (19) PCB'S THAT WERE BEING FOUND IN EUROPE WERE FROM HIGH (20) PRESSURE OIL AS A LUBRICANT WERE BECAUSE THE USERS OF (21) MACHINES THERE WERE NOT MAINTAINING THEM PROPERLY, (22) WOULD YOU? (23) A I DONT KNOW THAT. (24) I DONT EVEN KNOW WHAT KIND OF MACHINES (25) ARE USED. (26) Q WERENT THESE, THE MACHINES USED IN THIS (27) DOCUMENT, THE MACHINES USED IN THE COAL MINES THAT (28) YOU DECIDED NOT TO PUT THE PYDRAUL LABELS1 11 ON OR THE______________________________________ Page 2183 (1) ENVIRONMENTAL STICKER ON? (2) AI DON'T KNOW THAT, (3) Q LET ME ASK YOU TO LOOK, MR. PAPAGEORGE, (4) AT-WHICH ONE IS IT? 109. (5) EXCUSE ME, 112. (6) THOSE ARE THE NOTES FOR THE NOVEMBER, '69 (7) CMC MEETING? (IB) AI HAVE IT. (19) Q THOSE ARE DR. KELLER'S TYPED NOTES OF (20) SOME MEETINGS HE ATTENDED IN NEW YORK, RIGHT? (21) A THEY ARE. (22) Q IN FACT, THOSE ARE NOTES FROM THE (23) MEETINGS WHICH ARE REFERENCED ON THIS TIMELINE IN MAY (24) OF'69? (25) AYES. (26) Q OKAY. TURN, IF YOU WOULD, (27) MR. PAPAGEORGE, TO THE PAGE THAT IS NUMBERED AT THE (28) BOTTOM 22099. (8) A THIS REPRESENTS THE MATERIAL THAT WAS (9) PRESENTED TO THE CMC THEN, YES. (10) Q OKAY. AND WE LOOKED AT THE ALTERNATIVE (11) COURSES OF ACTION, RIGHT? (12) AYES, SIR. (13) Q OKAY. WHAT SPECIFIC ACTION PLAN WAS (14) TAILORED TO THE USE OF TURBINOL? (15) A WELL, THE PURCHASER, TEXAS EASTERN, WAS (16) EVALUATED AS BEING A SOPHISTICATED, MODERN, (17) UP-TO-DATE COMPANY. (18) THE SYSTEM WAS DEEMED, FROM OUR (19) UNDERSTANDING OF IT, THAT IT WAS A CLOSED SYSTEM. (20) IT WAS ALSO CONSIDERED TO BE A SYSTEM (21) THAT CAN BE OPERATED IN SUCH A WAY THAT ANY RELEASE (22) OF PCB'S COULD BE CONTROLLED SO IT DIDN'T GET AWAY (23) FROM THEM. (24) SO THE PLAN, REALLY, IS ONE OF (25) COMMUNICATING TO THE CUSTOMER BUT CONTINUE TO USE Transwestern v. Monsanto Page 2180 to Page 2183 WATER PCB-SD0000075927 BSA Trial Transcript [December 8,1993] XMAX(34) (26) THIS MATERIAL BECAUSE IT'S SO SUCCESSFUL IN THAT (27) OPERATION AND PROVIDES THE SAFETY THAT THEY ARE (28) LOOKING FOR. Page 2184 (1) SO THAT IS THE PLAN. (2) Q SO YOU ARE SAYING AT THAT TIME YOU (3) WERE - MONSANTO WAS AWARE THAT TURBINOL WAS GETTING (4) INTO THE PIPELINE? (5) A NO. (6) WE WERE AWARE THAT THE PIPELINE IS (7) MANAGEABLE. SO THAT IF IT WERE GETTING IN THE (8) PIPELINE, IT HAS TO BE REMOVED SOMEWHERE AND WHEN IT (9) IS REMOVED, IT'S CONTROLLED. (10) IT IS NOT A CASE OF, LIKE, SPRAYING OUT (11) INTO THE ATMOSPHERE. IT'S CONTAINED. (12) Q ITS CONTAINED WHERE? (13) A IN THE PIPE. (14) Q SO INSIDE THE PIPELINE WITH THE GAS THAT (15) IS HEADED TOWARDS CALIFORNIA? (16) A YOU ARE IMPLYING THAT THIS PCB IS IN THE (17) GAS STREAM. (18) IT'S REALLY WITH THE CONDENSATE. (19) Q SO ARE YOU- (20) A IT HAS GOT TO BE IN THE LIQUID. (21) Q ARE YOU TESTIFYING THAT YOU DIDN'T THINK (22) IT WAS IN THE GAS STREAM? (23) A I'M LED TO BELIEVE THAT IT IS COLLECTED (24) IN THE CONDENSATE. (25) IF THERE IS CONDENSATE IN THE GAS STREAM, (26) SURE, THE PCB'S ARE WITH IT. (27) ONCE THE CONDENSATE DROPS OUT, THE PCB (28) GOES WITH IT. Page 2185 (1) Q HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT? (2) A JUST FROM MY KNOWLEDGE OF CHEMISTRY AND (3) SOLVENT ACTION OF HYDROCARBON CONDENSATE AND PCB'S. - (4) Q I WOULD LIKE TO READ FROM (5) MR. PAPAGEORGE'S DEPOSITION DATED NOVEMBER 5,1992. (6) FROM PAGE 486. (7) THE COURT: LINE CITATION, PLEASE? (8) MR. TALLON: STARTING AT LINE SEVEN THROUGH (9) LINE 14. (10) "Q. DID MR. JOHNSON (11) INDICATE TO YOU THAT THE TURBINOL (12) HAD LEAKED INTO THE GAS PIPELINES (13) OPERATED BY TEXAS EASTERN? (14) "A. WELL, THERE WAS (15) TURBINOL IN THE CONDENSATE OR THE (16) LIQUID THAT WAS REMOVED FROM THE (17) SYSTEM ALONG THE ROUTE OF THE (18) SYSTEM. SO, YES, HE INDICATED (19) THAT TURBINOL WAS GETTING INTO (20) THE GAS STREAM." (21) Q NOW, LETS TALK FOR A SECOND ABOUT THAT (22) PLAN. (23) DID YOU CONCLUDE THAT THERE WAS NO WAY (24) THAT TURBINOL COULD GET OUT OF ONE OF THESE GAS (25) TURBINES IF A LINE BROKE OR SOMETHING? (26) AI DIDN'T CONCENTRATE ON THAT AS MUCH AS I (27) DID ON THE ABILITY OF THE CUSTOMER TO MANAGE THAT (28) SITUATION.; Page 2186 (1) Q HOW DID THAT DIFFER FROM THE SITUATION OF (2) THE CUSTOMER USING THE HYDRAULIC FLUIDS TO MANAGE (3) THEIR SITUATIONS? (4) A IT'S IDENTICAL. (5) Q SO IN THE CASE OF THE HYDRAULIC FLUIDS (6) YOU DECIDED TO PULL THOSE PRODUCTS. BUT TURBINOL, (7) ALONG WITH SANTOVAC, WERE THE ONLY TWO THINGS NOT (8) COVERED BY THE SIX-POINT PLAN? (9) A BECAUSE THERE WAS NO ALTERNATIVE (10) AVAILABLE. AND AS LONG AS THE CUSTOMER WAS (11) RESPONSIBLE AND SOPHISTICATED AND THE SYSTEM WAS (12) PROPERLY MANAGED THE CONTINUED USE IN THOSE LIMITED (13) FEW APPLICATIONS YOU MENTIONED WERE STILL PERCEIVED (14) TO BE ACCEPTABLE. . (15) Q JUST CLARIFY ONE POINT FOR ME, (16) MR. PAPAGEORGE. (17) YOU DID KNOW THAT THERE WERE ALTERNATIVES (18) AVAILABLE FOR TURBINOL TO BE USED IN GAS TURBINES? (19) YOU SAID THAT A FEW MOMENTS AGO, RIGHT? (20) A WELL, THERE WAS THIS FYRQUEL WE TALKED (21) ABOUT AND ALL. (22) THEY COULD HAVE GONE THAT ROUTE. (23) BUT ADDRESSING PCB-TYPE FLUIDS SUCH AS (24) TURBINOL, WE PERCEIVED THIS AS A SYSTEM WHERE IT (25) PROVIDED THE SAFETY REQUIRED. (26) IT HAD ALL THE GOOD PROPERTIES OF FLUID (27) IN THAT PIECE OF MACHINERY AND WE SAW NOTHING THAT (28) WOULD TELL US THAT IT COULDN'T CONTINUE TO BE USED, 1 11 Page 2187 (1) NOT CAUSE ANY PROBLEMS BY SOPHISTICATED TEXAS (2) EASTERN. (3) THAT IS THE PICTURE WE HAD. (4) Q WELL, HOW DID YOU THINK THAT THEY WERE (5) GOING TO GET IT OUT OF THE PIPELINE? (6) A IN THE CONDENSATE. (7) WHERE ELSE WOULD IT GO? (8) Q IF YOU WERE CONTR6LLING THE EFFLUENT FROM (9) YOUR PLANTS DOWN TO THE LEVEL OF 10 PARTS PER (10) BILLION, HOW DID YOU THINK THEY WERE GOING TO GET IT (11) OUT OF THE PIPELINE? (12) A THERE IS NO RELATIONSHIP, SIR. (13) YOU ARE CONFUSING WATER WITH MATERIAL (14) INSIDE A STEEL CONTAINER. (15) Q EXACTLY. (16) A THEY ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS. (17) WATER IS FLOWING, CARRYING WITH IT THESE (18) WASTES. . (19) IT'S DIFFERENT. (20) Q IT IS. (21) AND YOU CAN DIVERT THE FLOW OF THE WATER (22) WITH PIPING OR YOU CAN DIG UP CONTAMINATED DIRT, (23) RIGHT? (24) A YEAH, YOU CAN. (25) BUT I DON'T UNDERSTAND THE IMPLICATION (26) HERE. (27) Q AND YOU CANT GET INSIDE A PIPELINE? Page 2183 to Page 2187 Transwestern v. Monsanto WATER PCB-SD0000075928 bsa Trial Transcript [December 8,1993] XMAX(35) (28) A YOU CANT GET INSIDE OF A SEWER LINE, Page 2188 Page 2190 (1) WOULD RISE BUT THEN DROP? (1) EITHER. (2) Q IS THERE ANY NATURAL GAS INSIDE A SEWER (3) LINE? (4) AI DIDN'T SAY THAT. (5) WE ARE TALKING ABOUT PCB'S. (6) Q OKAY. LET ME TURN YOU FOR A SECOND THERE (7) TO 109. (8) YOU HAVE TESTIFIED BEFORE YOU ARE (9) FAMILIAR WITH THAT DOCUMENT? (10) A YES, I AM. (11) Q EXCUSE ME. (12) AND THAT THAT WAS PART OF THE (13) PRESENTATION MADE TO THE CMC IN NOVEMBER, 1969, (14) RIGHT? (2) A RIGHT AGAIN, ONE MAN'S OPINION OF WHAT (3) COULD HAPPEN, YES, SIR. (4) Q SO THE BEST POSSIBLE OUTCOME IS TO (5) CONTINUE TO SELL AND THEN EVENTUALLY THE PROBLEM (6) WOULD GO AWAY? (7) A HOW DID YOU ARRIVE AT THAT? (8) THAT DOES NOT INCLUDE ALTERNATIVE (9) MATERIALS THAT ARE DEVELOPED AND INTRODUCED TO SALES (10) TO CONTINUE THAT PROFIT LINE. (11) YOU ARE ASSUMING ALL OF THAT IS JUST (12) PCB'S. IT ISN'T. (13) Q NO, I WAS ASKING YOU. (14) IS THAT WHAT IT REPRESENTS? (15) A THIS IS AT LEAST A DRAFT FOR THAT (16) PARTICULAR PRESENTATION, YES. (17) Q OKAY. AND AT THE CMC MEETING THE (15) A NO. IT REPRESENTS A ONE-PERSON OPINION (16) ON WHAT HE WAS GUESSING AS TO THE FUTURE IN TERMS OF (18) ALTERNATIVES PRESENTED WERE "DO NOTHING," THAT WAS (19) ONE? (17) DOLLARS AND LIABILITIES FOR THESE THREE DIFFERENT (18) APPROACHES. (20) AYES. (21) Q AND ANOTHER ALTERNATIVE PRESENTED, (22) "DISCONTINUE MANUFACTURE OF PCB'S ALTOGETHER," THAT (23) WAS ANOTHER? (24) AYES. (25) Q AND THE THIRD WAS `TAILOR SPECIFIC PLANS (26) FOR EACH CUSTOMER AND EACH USE"? (19) AND THE APPROACH OF CONTINUED RESPONSIBLE (20) APPROACH INCLUDED ALTERNATIVE MATERIALS. SO YOU (21) STILL HAD THE CUSTOMER. YOU WERE SELLING HIM A (22) DIFFERENT PRODUCT. (23) AND YOUR PROFITS WOULD CONTINUE. (24) AND THE DIP IN THERE WOULD REPRESENT THE (27) AI THOUGHT THAT WAS THE FOURTH ONE. (28) THERE IS A THIRD IN THERE. Page 2189 (1) ANYWAY. (2) Q OKAY. (3) A THAT WAS ONE OF THEM. (4) Q LOOK AT THESE GRAPHS, MR. PAPAGEORGE. (5) NOW, ISN'T IT A FACT THAT WHAT THE (6) CORPORATE MANAGEMENT COMMITTEE HEARD WAS THAT IF THE (7) PLAN WAS TO DO NOTHING, PROFITS WOULD EVENTUALLY (8) TRAIL OFF BUT LIABILITY WOULD CONTINUE AND GROW? (9) A SIR, I DON'T BELIEVE THE CORPORATE (10) MANAGEMENT COMMITTEE SAW THESE CHARTS. (11) THIS WAS A ROUGH DRAFT OF THE PROPOSED (12) PRESENTATION. . (25) COST IT WOULD TAKE TO DO THE RESEARCH, FIND A NEW (26) PRODUCTANDSOON. (27) Q YOU WOULD AGREE WITH ME, MR. PAPAGEORGE, (28) THAT THE GOAL AT THE BEGINNING WAS TO PROTECT THE 1 11 Page 2191 (1) CONTINUED SALES AND USES OF THE PCB PRODUCTS, RIGHT? (2) A THAT'S ONE OF THEM. (3) Q THAT IN 1967 AND 1968 IT WAS ALL QUIET? (4) THERE WAS NOTHING GOING ON IN THE WORLD AND MONSANTO (5) WASN'T SAYING ANYTHING? (6) A THERE WAS NOTHING TO SAY AT THE TIME, > (7) YES, SIR. ` (8) Q YOU KNEW THERE WERE 5/6 CHLORINES BEING (9) FOUND IN THE ENVIRONMENT? (13) IT'S NOT THE FINAL DRAFT. (14) Q YOU HAVE SEEN THESE CHARTS BEFORE, (15) MR. PAPAGEORGE? (16) A YES, I HAVE, JUST EXACTLY THIS SET. (17) Q OKAY. (18) CAN YOU PUSH THAT UP A LITTLE BIT? (19) ISN'T IT A FACT, MR. PAPAGEORGE, THAT THE (20) CONCEPT WAS IF YOU DISCONTINUED THE MANUFACTURE OF (21) PCB'S, PROFITS WOULD DROP LIKE A STONE BUT LIABILITY (22) WOULD CONTINUE TO RISE? (23) A THAT IS ONE MAN'S CONCEPT, YES. (24) I CAN SEE WHERE YOU COULD COME TO THAT (25) CONCEPT, YES, SIR. (26) Q AND THE APPROACH OF DEVELOPING SPECIFIC (27) PLANS OR THE RESPONSIBLE APPROACH WOULD BE PROFITS (28) WOULD DROP A LITTLE BIT BUT THEN RISE, (10) A YES, BUT WE DIDNT KNOW HOW AND WHERE AND (11) UNDER WHAT CONDITIONS. (12) Q YOU KNEW THEY WERE BEING FOUND IN THE (13) ENVIRONMENT. (14) YOU BELIEVED JENSEN AND WIDMARK? (15) AYES, SIR. (16) Q AND YOU KNEW THERE WERE 5/6 CHLORINE (17) ATOMS IN 124^? (18) A TRUE. . (19) Q AND YOU KNEW THAT WAS BEING USED TO MAKE (20) TURBINOL? (21) A TRUE. (22) Q BUT THERE WAS NO PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENT OF (23) ANY KIND, NO LABEL CHANGE, UNTIL 1970? (24) A THERE WAS NOTHING TO ANNOUNCE. (25) I COULD NOT TELL THEM THAT USE OF (26) TURBINOL RESULTED IN THE PCB PROFESSOR WIDMARK FOUND (27) IN THE EAGLE IN STOCKHOLM. LIABILITY (28) I DIDNT HAVE ENOUGH INFORMATION TO MAKE Transwestern v. Monsanto Page 2187 to Page 2191 WATER PCB-SD0000075929 BSA Ti rial Ti ranscrnipti [tDueecempber 8o,,1l9a9a3j]j XMAX(36) Page 2192 (1) A DECENT, RESPONSIBLE DECISION. (2) Q WHAT WAS THE DOWNSIDE TO GIVING MORE (28) MENTIONED THE DULUTH, MINNESOTA LABORATORY PEOPLE AND= Page 2194 (3) INFORMATION? (4) A IN WHAT WAY? (5) Q I MEAN, WHEN, AT THE END OF 1968, YOU (1) SOON. (2) SO IT'S JUST THAT BY THAT TIME WE HAD (3) MORE INFORMATION TO THE POINT WE FELT THAT (6) ACCEPTED WHAT WIDMARK AND JENSEN HAD WE DONE, WHAT WAS (7) WRONG WITH JUST GIVING MORE INFORMATION? (8) AI DONT KNOW HOW IT WOULD HELP A CUSTOMER (4) UNDERSTOOD IT BETTER. (5) Q ARE YOU SAYING IT WAS JUST FOGGY FOR (6) THREE AND A HALF YEARS? (9) WHO IS USING A FLUID TO TELL THEM THAT (7) A IT WAS, YES, FOR THOSE OF US THAT WERE RESEARCHERS IN (10) STOCKHOLM FOUND A MATERIAL OF THIS TYPE. (11) YOU HAVE TO TAKE ANOTHER STEP. (12) WHAT DOES THAT MEAN TO HIS BUSINESS? (13) WHAT DOES HE DO AT THIS POINT? (14) WE WEREN'T IN A POSITION TO HELP ANYBODY, (15) THEN. (16) WE JUST DIDN'T HAVE ENOUGH GOOD SOLID (17) SCIENCE, WHICH IS REALLY WHAT DECISIONS (8) CLOSE TO IT. (9) Q WHEN YOU SENT OUT - WHEN YOU STARTED (10) PUTTING ENVIRONMENTAL STICK-ON LABELS ON SOME (11) PRODUCTS, DID YOU SEND ANY WARNING TO CUSTOMERS OR A (12) LETTER SAYING, 'WE HAVE CHANGED OUR LABELING. YOU (13) SHOULD LOOK FOR THIS"? SHOULD BE (18) BASED ON. (19) Q HOW MUCH DID YOU NEED? (20) A WELL, WE NEEDED TO KNOW THAT THE (14) AI DON'T REMEMBER A^Y SPECIFIC MEMORANDUM. (15) IDO RECALL A STAMP ON THEIR INVOICES, (16) BILLS OF LADING, WITH THAT SAME KIND OF WORDING. (21) ANALYTICAL METHODS TO BE USED IN ADDITION TO (17) SO SOMEBODY BACK AT THE CUSTOMER'S OFFICE (22) DR. WIDMARK AND JENSEN'S WERE THE TYPE THAT (18) SAW SOMETHING IN PRINT. WOULD (23) ALWAYS GIVE A NUMBER OR A RESULT THAT (19) Q HAVE YOU EVER SEEN AN INVOICE LIKE THAT (20) IN THIS CASE, MR. PAPAGEORGE? EVERYBODY WHO (24) KNEW EVERYTHING ABOUT THIS ANALYTICAL (21) AI HAVEN'T BEEN SHOWN ANY, NO. (22) Q SO WE SHOULD LOOK IN EVIDENCE FOR AN PROCEDURE WOULD (23) INVOICE WITH THAT MESSAGE ON IT? (25) ACCEPT AS BEING A GOOD NUMBER. (26) WE DIDN'T HAVE THAT. (27) Q MR. PAPAGEORGE, YOU DIDN'T KNOW WHAT THE (24) A IT WOULD CERTAINLY HELP, YES, SIR. (25) Q OKAY. YOU DONT KNOW WHAT BARRELS WENT (26) TO CORONA, NEW MEXICO, RIGHT? (28) LONG-TERM EFFECTS OF SEEING PCB'S IN THE (27) A I HAVE NO WAY OF KNOWING THAT, NO, SIR. ENVIRONMENT 1 11 (28) Q AND YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT WAS ON THEM? Page 2193 Page 2195 (1) WERE, THE LONG-TERM TOXICOLOGICAL CHRONIC (1) A WELL, THERE IS NO WAY THAT I CAN BELIEVE EFFECTS, (2) THAT A LABEL WASN'T ON THEM. (2) DID YOU? (3) NO MATERIAL CAN BE SHIPPED UNLESS IT'S (3) A THAT IS TRUE. . (4) LABELED. (4) Q BUT YOU KNEW THEY WERE OUT THERE? (5) Q SO YOU WOULD EXPECT THAT PEOPLE AT THE (5) AYES. : (6) Q WOULD IT HAVE HURT YOUR CUSTOMERS' (6) STATION WOULD BE ABLE TO TESTIFY THAT THERE WERE (7) BUSINESS TO GIVE THEM THE INFORMATION? (7) LABELS ON THERE? (8) AI HAVE NO REAL EXPERTISE TO EVALUATE (8) A CERTAINLY. (9) THAT, AT ALL. (10) Q DO YOU THINK IT MIGHT HAVE HURT (9) MR. TALLON: NOTHING FURTHER, YOUR HONOR. (10) THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. (11) MONSANTO'S BUSINESS TO GIVE OUT THAT (11) ANYTHING FURTHER, MR'. PREUSS? INFORMATION? (12) (12) AI DONT KNOW. . (13) THERE IS NO WAY TO KNOW. (13) RECROSS EXAMINATION (14) BY MR. PREUSS: (14) BUT WHEN YOU GIVE OUT INFORMATION, YOU (15) Q MR. PAPAGEORGE, YOU INDICATED THAT THE (15) HAVE RESPONSIBILITY TO ALSO GIVE OUT SOME ADVICE. (16) ENVIRONMENTAL LABELING WAS AFFIXED TO THE INVOICE (16) AND THAT ADVICE HAS GOT TO BE BASED ON (17) THAT WENT FROM MONSANTO TO THE CUSTOMER? (17) GOOD SOLID INFORMATION, NOT JUST A SKETCHY (18) AYES, SIR. REPORT (18) FROM SOME DISTANT SOURCE. (19) Q WHAT CHANGED BETWEEN THE END OF 1967 (19) Q SO IN THE CASE OF TEXAS EASTERN, THEN, (20) THE INVOICE WOULD BE AN INVOICE SENT FROM MONSANTO TO AND, (20) LETS SEE, WHAT DID WE SAY, MAY OF 1970 TO (21) TEXAS EASTERN? (22) AYES, SIR. MAKEYOU (21) START PUTTING ENVIRONMENTAL LABELS ON (23) Q AND IF IT WERE AVAILABLE, IT WOULD HAVE (24) TO COME FROM TEXAS EASTERN? SOME PRODUCTS? (25) A AVAILABLE - (22) A MORE LABORATORIES BECAME INVOLVED. (26) MR. TALLON: OBJECTION, FOUNDATION. (23) SOME ADDITIONAL WILDLIFE WORK WAS DONE, (27) THE COURT: SUSTAINED. (24) FISH-AND-BIRD KIND OF WORK. (28) Q BY MR. PREUSS: IS IT YOUR UNDERSTANDING* 1 2 (25) WHEN I INCLUDE MORE LABORATORIES, I'M (26) INCLUDING THE SCIENTISTS IN THE GOVERNMENT AGENCIES. (27) THEY BEGAN SOME SERIOUS STUDIES. I Page 2196 (1) THAT MONSANTO IN SENDING THE INVOICE TO THE CUSTOMER (2) FOR A PRODUCT WOULD AFFIX THE Page 2192 to Page 2196 Transwestern v. Monsanto WATER PCB-SD0000075930 BSA Trial Transcript [December 8,1993] ENVIRONMENTAL LABEL? (3) A YES, SIR, IT WOULD BE AFFIXED TO THE (4) INVOICE. IT WOULD BE THE "BILL TO ADDRESSEE.'1 (5) Q THAT IS WHAT IS PUT IN THE ENVELOPE AND (6) MAILED TO THE CUSTOMER? (7) A YES, SIR. (8) MR. PREUSS: THANK YOU, SIR. (9) NO FURTHER QUESTIONS. (10) THE COURT: FURTHER REDIRECT? (11)1 11 (12) FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION (13) BY MR. TALLON: (14) Q SO THE CUSTOMER IS SHOWN BY THE AREA THAT (15) SAYS "BILL TO"? (16) A YES, THE ONE RECEIVING THE INVOICE. 07) MR. TALLON: NO FURTHER QUESTIONS. ffa) THE COURT: MAY THIS WITNESS NOW BE EXCUSED, (19) MR. TALLON? r (20) MR. TALLON: YES, SIR. (21) THE COURT: MR. PREUSS? (22) MR. PREUSS: YES, SUBJECT TO RECALL IN PART OF (23) OUR CASE AS INDICATED EARLIER. (24) THE COURT: LEt ME SEE COUNSEL, PLEASE. (25) MR. PAPAGEORGE, I TRIED TO GET YOU OUT OF (26) HERE BUT IT DIDN'T WORK. (27) THE WITNESS: I APPRECIATE THE EFFORT, YOUR (28) HONOR. Page 2197 (1) THE COURT: AND IF EITHER SIDE CALLS YOU TO (2) RETURN, YOU SHOULD THEN RETURN. (3) OTHERWISE, YOU ARE EXCUSED AT THIS TIME. (4) THE WITNESS: THANK YOU, SIR. (5) MR. PREUSS: AS PART OF OUR CASE. (6) THE COURT: HE REMAINS SUBJECT TO CALL. (7) THE COURT: MR. TALLON, DO WE GO TO A (8) DEPOSITION READING FOR OUR NEXT WITNESS? (9) MR. TALLON: WE DO. (10) THE COURT: AND YOU WANT TO DO THAT AT 3:30 IN (11) THE AFTERNOON? (12) MR. TALLON: DO I WANT TO? (13) THE COURT: GO AHEAD. (14) MR. TALLON: DO I HAVE A CHOICE? (15) THE COURT: GO AHEAD, MR. TALLON. (16) MR. TALLON: OKAY. (17) YOUR HONOR, THIS IS THE DEPOSITION OF (18) CLINT SULTEMEIER TAKEN ON AUGUST 12,1992. (19) THE COURT: SPELL THAT NAME, PLEASE. (20) MR. TALLON: S-U-L-T-E-M-E-l-E-R. (21) (READING): (22) Q MR. SULTEMEIER, HAVE YOU EVER HAD (23) YOUR DEPOSITION TAKEN BEFORE? (24) A NO, SIR. . (25) Q MAY I HAVE YOUR DATE OF BIRTH, (26) PLEASE, SIR? (27) A THE 12TH AND 30TH OF '44. (28) Q AND YOUR CURRENT ADDRESS, PLEASE? Page 2198 (1) A BOX 147, CORONA, NEW MEXICO, (2) 88381. (3) Q CAN YOU GIVE ME A BRIEF SUMMARY (4) OF YOUR EDUCATION, YOUR FORMAL (5) EDUCATION. (6) A WELL, I STARTED IN CORONA, NEW (7) MEXICO AND I FINISHED IN CORONA, (8) NEW MEXICO. (9) Q WHAT LEVEL DID YOU FINISH AT? (10) A12TH. (11) AND THEN I WENT TO COLLEGE AT (12) EASTERN NEW MEXICO UNIVERSITY IN (13) LAS CRUCES, NEW MEXICO FOR TWO (14) YEARS. (15) Q WHAT DID YOU STUDY AT EASTERN NEW (16) MEXICO UNIVERSITY? (17) A NEW MEXICO STATE. (18) Q I'M SORRY. WHAT DID YOU STUDY? (19) Al go) Q OH, ITS NEW MEXICO STATE? (21) A NEW MEXICO STATE, NOT EASTERN. (22) Q l`M SORRY. (23) A I STUDIED RANGE MANAGEMENT AND (24) AGRICULTURE. (25) Q OKAY. YOU WERE EMPLOYED AT SOME (26) POINT BY TRANSWESTERN, IS THAT (27) CORRECT? (28) AYES, SIR. . Page 2199 (1) Q WHEN DID YOU START AT (2) TRANSWESTERN? (3) A 1966. (4) Q DO YOU REMEMBER WHAT MONTH? (5) A MARCH. (6) Q OKAY. I WANT YOU TO GIVE ME A (7) BRIEF SUMMARY OF YOUR FULL-TIME (8) EMPLOYMENT BEFORE YOU STARTED (9) WITH TRANSWESTERN. (10) SO ITS BEFORE MARCH, 1966. (11) IF ITS EASIER TO START WITH THE (12) BEGINNING AND GO UP TO MARCH, (13) 1966, THATS FINE OR DO IT THE (14) OTHER WAY, THATS FINE TOO. (15) A WELL, I STARTED OUT AS A MATERIAL (16) CLERK AT STATION EIGHT, WHICH IS (17) AT CORONA, NEW MEXICO. (18) Q OKAY. LET ME - MY QUESTION MUST (19) NOT HAVE BEEN CLEAR. (20) I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW ABOUT YOUR (21) EMPLOYMENT BEFORE YOU WERE (22) EMPLOYED AT TRANSWESTERN, OKAY? (23) A OH. (24) Q JUST BRIEFLY, A BRIEF DESCRIPTION (25) OF IT FROM THE TIME YOU LEFT (26) COLLEGE AT LAS CRUCES? (27) AI JUST WORKED ON SOME RANCHES. (28) Q WHAT SORT OF WORK DID YOU DO ON Page 2200 (1) THE RANCHES? (2) A WELL, BUILDING FENCES, CHECKING (3) WATER AND FEEDING AND TAKING CARE (4) OF THE LIVESTOCK. (5) Q ANY MECHANICAL WORK THAT YOU DID (6) ON THOSE RANCHES? (7) A YEAH. (8) WE WORKED ON THE VEHICLES. (9) Q WHAT KIND OF VEHICLES DID YOU (10) WORK ON? (11) A PICKUPS AND TRACTORS, I SUPPOSE. (12) Q AND THEN IN MARCH, 1966 YOU (13) STARTED AT TRANSWESTERN. (14) DID YOU TELL ME YOU STARTED AT (15) CORONA? (16) AYES, SIR. (17) Q AND YOU WERE A MATERIALS CLERK? (18) A YES, SIR. (19) Q WHAT DID YOU DO AS A MATERIALS (20) CLERK? (21) A OH, WE JUST WROTE PO'S AND THEN (22) HUSTLED PARTS. (23) MOSTLY IT WAS DRIVING A PICKUP, (24) GOING TO DIFFERENT TOWNS, PICKING (25) UP SUPPLIES THAT THEY NEEDED (26) WHILE THEY WERE BUILDING THE (27) STATION. ' (28) Q SO YOU WORKED AS A MATERIALS Page 2201 XMAX(37) Transwestern v. Monsanto Page 2196 to Page 2201 WATER PCB-SD0000075931 BSA Trial Transcript [December 8,1993] (1) CLERK BEGINNING IN MARCH, 1966. (2) HOW LONG DID YOU SERVE IN THIS (3) CAPACITY? (4) A ABOUT A YEAR AND A HALF. (5) Q SO DO YOU REMEMBER ABOUT WHAT (6) MONTH YOU CHANGED POSITIONS? (7) AUH, NO. (8) Q WOULD IT HAVE BEEN IN 1967, DO (9) YOU THINK? (10) A YEAH, YEAH, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN IN (ID 1967. (12) BUT I DON'T KNOW WHAT MONTH. (13) Q WHAT JOB DID YOU MOVE TO FROM (14) MATERIALS CLERK? (15) AI COME TO ROSWELL HERE. (16) Q OKAY. AND WHAT POSITION? (17) AI WAS IN MAINTENANCE CREW. (18) Q WHAT WAS YOUR TITLE, DO YOU (19) REMEMBER? (20) A UTILITY MAN. (21) Q I BELIEVE YOU TOLD ME THAT YOU (22) WERE ON A MAINTENANCE CREW; IS (23) THAT RIGHT? (24) AYES, SIR. (25) Q AND WHAT I'M INTERESTED IN IS HOW (26) MANY PEOPLE WERE ON THE (27) MAINTENANCE CREW. (28) AI DON'T REMEMBER. Page 2202 (1) PROBABLY 10 OR - 10 OR 12 OF ' (2) US. ' (3) Q OKAY. HOW MANY UTILITY MEN ON (4) THE CREW? (5) A OH, THERE WAS PROBABLY HALF OF (6) US. (7) Q ABOUT FIVE OR SIX UTILITY MEN? (8) MR. TALLON: AND THE TRANSCRIPT (9) INDICATES THAT THE WITNESS NODS (10) HIS HEAD AFFIRMATIVELY. (11) Q WHAT DID YOU DO WHEN YOU SERVED (12) AS A UTILITY MAN? (13) A YOU NAME IT, WE DID IT. (14) I MEAN, PLUMB DOWN FROM YARDWORK (15) TO WORKING ON ENGINES, JUST (16) TAKING CARE OF THE PIPELINE IN (17) THE STATIONS. (18) Q WHEN YOU STAY 'YARDWORK," GIVE ME (19) A ROUGH IDEA OF WHAT IS INVOLVED (20) WITH YARDWORK? (21) A PULLING WEEDS. (22) Q THAT KIND OF YARDWORK? (23) A MOWING THE GRASS, JUST KEEPING (24) THINGS CLEAN. (25) Q OKAY. THAT IS THE KIND OF (26) YARDWORK I UNDERSTAND VERY WELL. (27) YOU SAY YOU WORKED ON SOME (28) ENGINES. Page 2203 (1) DID YOU EVER WORK ON THE (2) CENTRIFUGAL COMPRESSOR AT (3) CORONA? (4) AYES, SIR. (5) Q EVER WORK ON THE TURBINE AT (6) CORONA? (7) AYES, SIR. (8) Q CAN YOU GIVE ME A ROUGH IDEA HOW (9) MANY TIMES YOU DID WORK ON THE (10) COMPRESSOR AT CORONA? (11) A NO, SIR. (12) Q DO YOU THINK IT WAS MORE THAN 10 (13) TIMES? (14) A OH, I WOULD IMAGINE IT WAS (15) SOMETIME AROUND 10. (16) Q AROUND 10. (17) AND THE SAME FOR THE TURBINE? (18) A OH, I DOUBT THAT ON THE TURBINE. (19) Q FEWER TIMES ON THE TURBINE? (20) A TURBINE, YES, SIR. (21) Q AROUND FIVE, WOULD THAT BE A FAIR (22) ESTIMATE? (23) A POSSIBLY. (24) Q WHAT KIND OF WORK DID YOU DO ON (25) THE CENTRIFUGAL COMPRESSOR AT (26) CORONA? (27) A JUST OVERHAULED THEM. (28) Q DID THAT INVOLVE SHUTTING THE_______ Page 2204 (1) COMPRESSOR DOWN? (2) A OH, THEY HAD IT SHUTDOWN AND ALL (3) OF THAT BEFORE WE WOULD GET (4) THERE. (5) Q EACH TIME YOU WORKED ON THE (6) COMPRESSOR IT WAS SHUTDOWN, IS (7) THAT RIGHT? (8) AYES, SIR. (9) Q AND HOW ABOUT THE TURBINE, THE (10) TIMES YOU WORKED ON THE TURBINE, (11) WAS IT ALSO SHUTDOWN? (12) AYES, SIR. (13) Q DO YOU REMEMBER WHETHER YOU EVER (14) WENT OUT AND DID MAINTENANCE ON (15) THE COMPRESSOR IN RESPONSE TO AN (16) EMERGENCY? (17) A NO, SIR. (18) Q WHAT KIND OF MAINTENANCE DID YOU (19) DO ON THAT COMPRESSOR? (20) A WELL, MOSTLY I WAS JUST A UTILITY (21) MAN. (22) MOSTLY I DID JUST A LOT OF THE (23) CLEANING UP, JUST HELPING THE (24) REPAIRMAN. ' (25) Q THE REPAIRMAN DID MORE THAN (26) MECHANICAL WORK; IS THAT FAIR TO (27) SAY? 1 11 (28) AYES, SIR.___________________________________ Page 2205 (1) Q NOW, YOU HAVE GOT A BROTHER NAMED (2) MELVIN SULTEMEIER, RIGHT? (3) A COUSIN. (4) Q HOW LONG DID YOU REMAIN WORKING (5) FOR TRANSWESTERN AS A UTILITY MAN (6) ON THE MAINTENANCE CREW FROM (7) ROSWELL? (8) AI IMAGINE UNTIL, PROBABLY ABOUT (9) UNTIL 72. (10) Q DID YOU CONTINUE WORKING FOR . (11) TRANSWESTERN WHEN YOU STOPPED (12) WORKING AS A UTILITY MAN? (13) AYES, SIR. (14) Q WHAT JOB DID YOU MOVE TO THEN? (15) AI WAS AN OPERATOR IN THE ARTESIA (16) FIELD. (17) Q WHAT DID YOU DO AS AN OPERATOR? (18) A JUST CHECKED THE ENGINES. (19) Q HOW LONG DID YOU REMAIN IN THAT (20) JOB? (21) A ABOUT A YEAR AND A HALF OR ALMOST (22) TWO YEARS, I GUESS. (23) Q SO WHAT - ABOUT 1974 YOU LEFT (24) THAT JOB? (25) AYES. (26) Q AND WHAT JOB DID YOU TAKE THEN? (27) A OH, I LEFT AND WENT INTO BUSINESS (28) FOR MYSELF. XMAX(38) Page 2201 to Page 2205 Transwestern v. Monsanto WATER PCB-SD0000075932