Document KR2n5BEv5Nw4BVLp8Znyq6K00

FILE NAME: DuPont (DUP) DATE: 1956 DOC#: DUP189 DOCUMENT DESCRIPTION: Conference Presentation - Health Problems & Toxic Materials U'( 21t ANNUAL MEETING INDUSTRIAL HYGIENE FOUNDATION / s - 'V S - o \ '*'**-<> ^ ^d Lj to t i i Transactions Bulletin No. 30 INDUSTRIAL HYGIENE FOUNDATION OF AMERICA MELLON INSTITUTE 4400 FIFTH AVENUE PITTSBURGH 13, PA. I! I! ! li '! ili! ;;-; ?:; , ia -.;h Adviser to the Foundation; and V. P. Ahearn, Executive Secretary, National Industrial Sand Asso- x a |^ =_ r* C5TQ os BCrt'* o w & czr aPC. cr ~ w cin oa> aa>."O o>1 o w o ct3> oo> p c j ? &5 a ca v~< H t> ~ XK g y o Y - 2 s H o$ 05 2^ . <rrtj> Pe5l 3 s' o' o a . Ha A 7QT > A V OC-F ^ 3 CD . it) 2T j : ' i Y X Y P3 7y K< aa b^> rt X 0 'r 1 C+ ii rt o> 0 ~ "2 -- o> 05* rt- C> l"+3 c rQ_ f* i. 2?.S" 2i0 s-5 > z? ^ 3r0t fr2-->* >~toj ^fti00n po 0rw 1^ ntt. T3"J 3b a 5a. u&a fA -- ^3 - 1* /-V ? Ii n-1x 5^ 0 "50 03 oXq f~ s2-*s n* Q- iu -0> S-H CD n n "5Q0>i 3< o77" r<2*f f>t_SC' 5 J2C. t3oTM m'-t "* = g. oo ito-s 2". ft oo ig - 2f3t l 0 >L/'-?i * ^ X *n IP P * *0 Xft 2C.*c3 3 O > ft ft "L 1 s i K ft g 2 o m Lit't2a 00 S->. 0a3 . > C On o- 3 * I * 2 *T7 r0>--r\ -n 0 z ~3 mx n CCL cft o QI O ft rrV. 7m733 r-* to <r-,C xm -->i 0.^ > 0 9 oc Or 73 ? >* (l/A> o 3 > > < r~ Z m 00 O O Cto 5 contributions to be made The panel participants met this morning to look over the questions and to discuss the program. After the recess, at 3 .30, we propose to give priority to questions asked from the floor rather than to the wntten-out questions We hope that there will he floor discussion even if we haven't answered all the written questions, because we want to establish the town hall atmosphere and to give each of you an opportunity to ask a question, to make a contribution, to challenge a member of the panel, or do any thing else that your democratic instinct suggests you do The first question which 1 am going to ask the panel is "Howdoes one define ` health problems ' ? What is meant by ` toxic ma terial' ?" 1 am going to ask Dr. McGee to answer that question DR. M c G E E . In a broad sense, one might say that any deviation from optimum physical, mental, and social well-being is a health problem. That definition of health as the optimum state of mental, physical and social adjustment has been batted about for a number of years 1 believe for the purpose of this afternoon's contribution, how ever. the health problems involved should be limited to those devia tions from optimum health which occur as a result of an exposure in manufacturing, sale and use of something winch is called " toxic material. ' ' As the title is stated, of course, any deviation in health oi a worker would react on his work in output, and so forth, m a broad sense But, 1 believe the meaning here is m a more limited sense oi' those deviations from the optimum physical, mental, and social ad justments which result from the contact with tins thing called -'toxic material. ' ' Passing then to the second part of the question, ` What is toxic material' " we are m trouble immediately ! find very few people, outside of those who are concerned with deleterious substances as they affect man. who have a concept, of the large range in degree and character of toxicity. It is a word which means what, anybody wants it to mean. Unfortunately to substitute for " toxic " ' ` poisonous " "dele terious" or what have you, gets us no place' It so happens flul eveiy tiling with which man is in contact can lie troublesome and "to xic'' if In* gets too much Those things that wc consider essential In 111<, including food, vitamins, minerals, and wain can he " lo x ir " In m.m I believe Dr Henry Snivtli, Jr , deiined` loxn " simply a-, a mill.o' ol too iniieh li we keep (hat in mini! ue will leali/.e limn Iliot wo ea n11ot ei re11 msenhr a 11-11.1111 gt in1p id111 11et 11.. and , :1\ Ihe a I luxe- ollieis ate mil Inx'e 1 mtixl admit im.I |>'.,.dii\ lb `/..ipp . help ns heir, that, lor purposes of orientation, we must have some arhil rary dehninon of what is toxic. IMi Z A P P : I can only express my agreement with the remarks Iha I Dr McGee has made. The term "toxic m aterial" is subject to w iy mill) interpretations by different people. The great difficulty fhat we have m talking about them and m drawing up laws and pro cedi ires to govern the use of toxic material revolves about (lie deli mtion of toxic material Dr McGee was quoting to you just a few moments ago from the report of the Council of Toxicology of The American Mediciil Association, in which are reviewed the various definitions of poison, (The Council found that there was no uniformity.) As a matter of fact, it states that there is no uniformity of legal or scientific opinion as to what constitutes a poison And then, since a precise definition that would fit ail <*in*uia stances is not possible, the Committee felt that any substance (ha! when improperly used may produce harm by chemical action, should be provided with an appropriate cautionary label or (airmen!. r< cetera. So. here, we have not only difficulty in defining v, ha! \w* niraii hv toxic material, but also a concern on the part of fins group for warning of the consequences of misuse l think what we rmilh nimn to talk about this afternoon is more properly defined as hazards, Ihut is, the probability that an injury will occur in the muniilarimi*. Male, or use of these materials. M O D E R A T O R A H E A IIN : Thank you \er.y much, I>s /,iipp N o w , i move on to the second question, unless at this stage a uinahci o f (he panel wishes to add something to what these I wo gent lc*mi*u have already said You football men will notice 1 am pla.vmg a seven man lineup on (Ins platform I am going to ask itiv right tackle, l)r Uarlniiaa, (liis question: " Do von think there is any basic iliffercuce in -iitl'cly as applied to people in research and development in comparison with people involved m regular pi oduet ion operations? ! >Iv -I>At '! 1Hi A N I think (Ins quest ion in (lie lirsl phme u-litpi loan appi oarh|o safety 111 that respect, I will I r\ (o pilMU mi opinilpl, I l l m i k t h e r e is a c o n s i d e r a b l e d i l l e r e n e c in (lie s a f e t y t lint o n e 11ns a in Ie i s , n (In* I n b o i n l o i v a n d (lull w h i c h o n e <*i icon n ("tv* in Ijjo pi ml In a phut ! in I hc i c g u l a i p r o d ue( ion <>|><t a I mi i , il pi |nmi|ili|n h n fl i c n o * m m * hi b l e a k a p i o c e s s d o w n m i n n i n n y c o m [nni ri it p u r l s in ! tihl\ ( I l e a p a l ! * , h u m ( h r po i l l l of \lc*\\ (if |.*iti` l\ , ( h r dllTcqt'ht 'I ** i I lol l ` III III :n 11 IIII .1II 1\ I.t Iopi l.i I , h d I I ll III I; I 11C I c I'l licit v e i l much difficulty m this, and it is rather rarely that we have accidents of any significant nature in processes that are continually operating m a repetitive manner. I think that is rather easy to control, and it is more feasible to train the operators in safety measures. Now, in contrast with that is a research laboratory The men in the laboratory are frequently working m unexplored and unknown areas They may or may not, and probably will not, know the toxico logical or hazardous explosive properties of the materials with which they are working or of the materials which might be formed as a result of their researches. So. here, you have only a few of the general rules of safety that apply. I think a great deal of it in the case of the research man depends entirely' upon him I think his approach to it must be one of safety consciousness. I think he has to really live safely and to be effective this has to be a part of his background, a part of his disposition M O D E R A T O R ATIKARN Thank you, Dr. Bachman Now. Mr. Hatch MR. H A T C H 1 certainly agree with everything he said except the second point, attitude Certainly, it is true that the people who are doing the basic research and development work should incorporate into their day-to-day thinking the needs with respect to safety to a greater degree than people out on the production line. However, it has been my experience, and 1 am sun' many of the rest of us here have had the same experience, that very often we find it just the other way around The man who is doing research is so wrapped up m his research objective that he is inclined not to give very much considera tion to these other matters i cart recall visiting laboratories where, for example, they were using such a well-known agent as benzol and were slopping it around like water At the same time, they might be quite concerned over the toxicity of the new and exciting material that they are developing Ro, T am sure it is important to make sure that in the course of re search and development, these questions are constantly raised, but 1 don't, think we can rightly assume that the research people are always going to raise them M O D E R A TO R A IIE A R N . Thank you. Ted. 1 wan) (o I'l'iiiiml 1he pane! that othei contributions arc always welcomed MR B A I I j E M a y ! m l c r j c c t o ne c o m m e n t '' T h e v e r y l i i s l m r | iom (h,if hul l i g e n t l e m e n h a v e m a d e b e t w e e n t h e r e s e a r c h o p e r a l i o n and p ' o d u e f i o n <>| irr.i t inn s u g g e s t s (he d e s i r a b i l i t y oi a s l c l i l l y dl l f r i e n ! a p p r o a c h t<i I lie s a l e ( \ p r o g i . n n \\ it li r e s p e c t to o p c i a t i o n In the production operation, you are dealing with guarding against, the individual, isolated accidents in the course of production, whereas, in the research operation, you are concerned with the catastrophe [rolllem. Therefore, your program m that respect should be designed to provide for the type of action required m the event those catas trophes occur. M O D ER A T O R , ATTEARN Thank you very much, Mr. Hade. The next question gives us a chance to break out our legal talent up here " Does not, the obligation of the insured under a Products Ian bill tv Policy, particularly his agreement not to settle with a cLmiiaiit nor to admit liability, interfere with a manufacturer's relations with his customers and with the public?" Mr Baile, you can be the first one to answer that quest ion MR B A lD E : I believe the simple answer to the question is that it should not I think at the same time you have to recognize that there is an apprehension on the part of some people that it docs In order that it shall not interfere with customer and public relat m:.. I think it is of utmost importance that there be understanding <m the part, of both the insurer and the insured, and also that t h e n - tie the utmost cooperation between the two. The basic understanding that has to exist is to recognize (lie dir, tmetion between customer complaints on one hand and claims mi 11uother Customer complaints must be a concern of the insured, Ihe manufacturer himself He must be free to deal with customer com plaints as you deal in business relations, without necessarily bring concerned with the legal basis of the claim or the legal possibilities that might arise out of your action On the other hand, it is most important on the pari of Ilie in surer to recognize that the insured must be free to act m tlml way that he must be free to deal with a customer in order lhal he will have a satisfied customer Since that is the interest of the iiuumlite turer, he can't, restrain that, action in order to proteei his legal pool (ion The interest of the insurer and the insured must be recognized as an identical interest. They are not two parties; they are one parly serving otic aspect of the nisuied s business, which is Ins relation In the customers insofar as they are affected by bis jn odnets, I hop e I d o n 'f s o u n d i de a l i s t i c s p e a k i n g as all i n s u r a n c e iiiltn on (li.it s u b j e c t , b e c a u s e I t h u d ; it is t h e a c t u a l p r a c t i c e o f r \ r r \ rout pan\ ol s t a n d i n g to o per at e in t h e h a n d l i n g o f p r o d u c t s liability . Ia n o s i n [11 e. 'sel v t h a t \\ a . II it .s d tme l h a l u ;i v l i n o I It* re a, no o 11e el < i e i n . <ii `.Hue's u 1 111 t l m i o m p a 11 \ i . la I icin' . w i t h t i n p u b l i c | ha MODERATOR AHEARN comment ? Thank you Dt Zapp, will you D R Z A P P Well, I can't speak on tins topic as a lawyer or as an insurance man. It does seem to me that there are two separate concepts involved m this question One concerns the mechanism of settling claims which presume that there has been an injury for which the plaintiff seeks to recover damages The other part concerns the relations of the man ufacturer with his customers and with the public Now, it seems to me that the manufacturer has a very definite responsibility to his customers and to the public, and that is to point out to them how his product can be used with safety. Nothing can interfere with that responsibility on the part of the manufacturer If, however, a claim arises which suggests either that the manufac turer's statements were inadequate or m error, then you have this question of deciding about liability, which 1 feel is a separate matter M O D E R A T O R A H E A R N : Thank you, Dr. Zapp. The next ques tion is, " What information respecting physical and chemical prop erties and toxicological properties of the material does the industrial hygienist need in order to develop the hazard control program Mr. Hatch. MR. H A T C H . The answer to this question is very easy You get all that is available There is one very important aspect of this ques tion as to what information concerning physical and chemical and toxicological properties that the industrial hygienist needs. The im plication is that there is information with respect to the toxicological properties of the substance obviously essential to an understanding of the hazard That doesn't tell the whole story, however There must be added to this question; what information does he need also with respect to the way in which the process operates m which this toxic substance is to be used ? It is important for us to keep in mind that there is a '~ea) difference in toxicity and hazard Here is where the physical and chemical properties as well as t!ie toxicological prop ertles come m We know, for example, that two substance-, may be equally toxic but quite different in respect to hazard Thus, it should he the indus trial hygienist's responsibility to accumulate all the information that is available, and it should he his responsibility to digest tins informa tion and dct< runic to what extent inoie inhumation ,s needl'd, liec a u s e lie i ,in I h u n t Ills i esj Kinsibil i i v bj s i m p l e xayu.'ii I li a! <>n!\ so mm !i is Kuo,\n .i Sou t 1lie si iiis 1,i 11, e and ................ . del iskiiis have loi i dr>i 1 i be based upon this limited data He additional mlormation is obtained. must see to it that the necessary M() 1)10HA TOW A 1IEA K N : Dr. McGee. DR M<G!OIO Accepting tiie suggestions that Ted Hatch lias given, I wonder if ho would admit there is a practical shortcut, which is useful in human exposures to some materials I refer to the fad that if you h a v e an explosive hazard at a concentration in air well below that causing a definite, clear-cut, biological effect, it is a simple and good operating rule to take the lowest concentration needed as .a guide You may disregard certain properties which are evident only at levels above that level which can he tolerated for reasons of safely. M O D E R A T O R A IIE A R N : Thank you very much, Dr McGee There are two questions on the list, which bear essentially on the sam e points and we vbl! therefore discuss them jointly They are 1. " What is the liability of a manufacturer of a toxic ehemicid who sells it in bulk for packaging and resale by the purchaser under his own name or brand m the event, of an injury to an ultimate con s u m e r and. 2. " What liability does a company have tor its produel if an adequate warning label is placed on the container but the idlim.-il< consumer either does not read the warning label or does not follow ih. instructions 1 am going to call on Mr Oviat.t first MR O V I A T T . If the manufacturer adequately warns a resellci of the toxic nature of the material either on the label or ofhern'iue and of the care that should he used in handling it, he is not liable if the reseller fails to put such warning on the package when in- re packages it and sells it to the public O f course, if a maun fad urer should find out w any one of numerous ways that the resellci s fail mg to put the notice or the 'warning or any material part Iheu-uf on the packages, then he should call the reseller's attention to il. If (ho reseller persists m disregarding Those warnings. Ihen 1 ]>obrv< dial he should stop selling it to him for his own safely . Of eouise. what, should go on a label depends greail.i on i ii eim.i. \ of trade to which any product is sold, the know ledge of the people \ who are going ro u~,e it. the c h e m i c a l k n o w l e d g e and r es ul t s lh.il might \ come fiom mishandling S o von can't s a y a label lias !<> hear l i m a and so foi the entire genet a I pnhln A n d th.il would a l s o r n n l m l In a i f o i a m e \ i " U l , wh a i s h o u l d g o on a l abel 1o a ese l l ei li i w l m l know l e d g e Jie oiev h a \ e oI Mie rheinu.ns s o l d a n d u b . d lie b o i d d .ad . n ise Iu ^ | n e d i . i M i s as (u i he m< 11n i u 1 n m M O D E R A T O R A H E A R N . Thank you very much, Mr Oviatt. Mr. Baile. MR. B A IL E I think in answering the first of the two questions, you have to make a distinction between chemicals which are toxic as a normal attribute of the chemical itself on the one hand, and on the other hand the chemical which is toxic as a result of some dangercreating defect that exists in the chemical which would normally be harmless. Now'. I think Mr Oviatt !s answer is primarily directed to the first class where yon are dealing with the chemical which is naturally toxic. Under those circumstances, when the purchaser is given full knowledge of the toxic character of it and the dangers that are in herent, or the purchaser, without your telling him. has that knowl edge, I don't think there is any liability on the part of the manu facturer However, where the toxic character of the chemical is created by some defect in the manufacturing process then I think there is liability on the part of the manufacturer. I don't think ive aze going to permit manufacturers to insulate their own carelessness in the manufacture of their product against consumers by the intervention of a middle man MR. O V IA T T Mr. Baile, after all. the question was what is the liability of the manufacturer of a toxic chemical Now a chemical is either toxic or not toxic, is that right? MR. B A IL E Not according to my friend at the beginning of the meeting MR. O V I A T T : I f a chemical becomes toxic because of the de fect, that isn 't the subject of our meeting today, is it? I thought we are just speaking of materials that are inherently toxic without any defect producing toxicity. M O D E R A T O R V R E A R N . I believe it would be helpful to the audience, Mr. Baile, if we had more pointed discussion of the second half of this question because it seems to me it is a question winch most people, in this audience are very much interested in Will yon point void- remarks specifically to that question'' M i l B A i L E A s M r O v i a t t p oi nt ed o u t , the b a s i c eonxi dei a f ion in i m p o s i n g l ia b i l i t y u p o n a mami i ' . i r t urec ()i ,i e l i e i i u e a l , w i n c h in its n a l u i e is t o x i c , is (In1o b li ga t i o n th.it is imp osed up o n bu n io disscnu n o t e t h e k n o w l e d p c I h 11 h e l i a s o f I lie .......... i s to t h e | >!I r r ' e i s r i N o w , I n s m i h m e t h o d ot d u m p t hat in most r i s! i m e - ' s t l u o i i ' d i l.dielm;- the product with an appi-opriate warnmg, stating prohibitions agnmnl particular use and providing- an antidote in the event harm is m countered. Having done that, there is not much more lie can do. I f. therefore, he meets that requirement--puts an adequate warn mg on his product--the unwillingness of an ultimate user jo talie advantage of the knowledge that has been made available to him, either refusing to read it or failing to understand that which n clearly understandable does not create a liability. On the contrary, it constitutes on the part of the consumer, the party injured, a lowIt which would bar any right of recovery that he should have agamsl a manufacturer. M R. O V IA T T On the other hand, what you arc really say urn is that the manufacturer does not have to police his customers M R. B A IL E I think that is a fair statement. M O D E R A T O R A H E A R N . I believe the audience appicnafed that additional contribution from both of you. By the way, I forgot to say in opening this meeting Ihal al Ilie request of the panel. I want to make it clear that the members of Ihr panel are speaking only for themselves as individuals and an- mil In be regarded as committing their companies in any way I tlmvk we may assume that they and their companies arc fairly close Io;.;rt hn We will go on to the next question now. ` ` In wind way ran the producer of a toxic substance aid in securing its sale use by nlimi tion, research, and development of control measures?" Mr 11.dels. M R. H A T C H We agreed in a preliminary panel meel me (hr. morning that this question answers itself'. The point is, how can get the producer to recognize and accept Ins responsibility We have many examples in which tiie manufac,! nrrrs of Inwr substances have recognized and assumed responsibility in Hus rr-ipoei even to the extent of requiring the customer to show evidence in ml vance that he has made adequate provisions for the safe bamllmr ol the material before they will supply U to turn 1 recall when I was willi flu1 New V o ih Labor Departm ent that one c o m p a n y which was pro d u cin g and d istr ib u tin g u iiipiilv i m n m aterial r equired every potential c u s to m e r in New npprova! of the Sta le im their proposed eon I ml Y o rk to U Hic III llm ease of a n o t h e r l o \ | c s u b s t a n c e o ne o f o u r l a r g e e h e m i e a l c o m p a n i e s Imn net u p a n e l a b o r a t e p t n g i . u i i of e d u c a t i o n of the u l t i m a t e e o in i ui ie r ol Mo m. l i e n , li I I I r e c o g n i t i o n ol t he \ n y u u p o i l a l i l f uel I it m I u i l l o n i l -11 I<"(j 11 . |j t , a l e ( \ I l i o i - J l i r s ,1'l'UIUS d l l l u u l l o , u e t e h o u n d In l o m l l I w o u l d Ido 11 1111 11 (o 11ii l . i . l 1 11 it i I In d c \i l opii o n I ol i in 1 11 i. I measures. There is a particular responsibility and opportunity here on the part of the producer because, as I said earlier, the hazard can be magnified or minimized for a given toxic material by the manner in which the process equipment operates. It is the responsibility of the producer of such materials to take part in the development of safe-process equipment so that he will be in a position to advise his customer on the kind of equipment in which he is to use this toxic material. M ODERATOR A H E A R N : Thank you, Ted Dr. Bachman. D R . BA CH M AN I can only add to Mr. H atch's remarks by call ing attention to an action one company is taking They bring in the customer's employees who are going to use this material and give the employees of the customer a course m the handling of it Now this, I think, is an excellent approach when you get to extremely hazard ous conditions. I don't know of anything that you can do beyond that M O D E R A T O R A H E A R N . Now we come to two questions which the panel believes should be grouped together also ' ` What pro cedures should he followed to determine whether any of the plant personnel are abnormally sensitive to toxic materials. In conjunction with that 'How is a health problem to be anticipated9 Recognized7 Proved 7' ' Dr McG-ee D R M cGBE In general, there are certain principles which some of us teel should be followed Tn the first place, we must know as much as we can about the biological action of the material concerned We like to know how it can affect, the animal with which we are primarily concerned There may be a species variation such as the rabbit story Ted Hatch men tioned The full st(u-y of biological action involves some understand ing of the molecular structure, action at a cellular level, the details of the chemical, metabolic and other changes brought about in the body, to the extent that our research methods and our understanding of metabolism of the body allows us to define those things Secondly, from the standpoint of man, tlie workei, u is quite essential that we know who in the plant has a deviation from his optimum state of health, when, v h e i e and w h y We are not able to teeouni/.e 01 anticipate a health problem unless we know what to look tor, and a'-timlly do look pet iodieallv at this crucial and coni mu ing esper inenf m which flic workei is involved To at eomnhsii di al , we must know wli.it its sit nut ion lie.i It h wise is w lien he stints to work ( hol me e v p o s u i " ) and at mt r i \, i l s theie.dtci i ( n i l k e t u r n 1 1II ' l, h r I ( d i' l V - I MU. l ! l u l l s il l I i c ' i ' 1(1 ! .i .!(< : i i dTh i when using a new material, examine the worker at rather frequrtiI intervals until they define for themselves 1 That the average person does well under the cireu m.slni...... and the control situation that exists at the plant; and 2 That m a sufficient experience they have not demonstrated 'it unusual sensitivity I refer not only to the entire group of allergies, but to some of He1 idiosyncrasies which are not too well understood. A part of this recognition of a hazard involves other than hash knowledge, orientation and thinking about it day by day A iv.spou sible individual reviews some of the possibilities which may hr over looked and checks and double cheeks to see if they are actually neem ring I f you don't look, 1 will assure you that the experience of mm! of us is that you can miss them until they force themselves on i mi By looking carefully for an untoward reaction you may find it curlier than otherwise M O D E R A T O R A H E A R N Thank you. Now, Dr Bachman, D R . B A C H M A N Once again I am in a position o f bnekwjt i mm with very little to say on the subject, because I think I>r M et lee lm pretty much said what can be said. I do note that the p oi n t ;il w h i c h most of the conditions arise or appear is at the start o f a n e w p l a n t I think it is only by following the points as made hv Dr. M e t See flint one can discover or uncover the abnormal sensitivity o f a rum The only thing that I know of that could be dime is to r e m o v e the man from the action and pray that he doesn't get worse M O D E R A T O R A H E A R N ; Thank you. Dr. Bachman. Mr. Hutch M R H A T C H I would like to add to what Dr. M e t i e r said In addition to the continuing observations on the m e n f o r the 11ur|i<>.< of identifying a problem area, it is equally essential di al h e r e he (uirnl le! studies on exposure. The ultimate p u r p o s e is lo c o m p a r e Hie m e with the other So don't forget that it is the (wo ( o g e l h e r , the m a n a n d the environment, that have to he s t u d i e d eont muomd, \ hi ouler to reveal significant relationships. W i t h m e c h a n i z a t i o n a n d a u t o m a t i o n t he m a i n t e n a n c e p e o p l e n< a p l a n t b e c o m e m o r e and m o r e i m p o r t a n t T h e r e a r e m o r e o f l l oon m pr o p o rt i o n to p r o d u c t i o n m en a n d difficult p ro bl em s nir;e wi th respect (o (hem because (heir e x p o s u r e s a r e so va ile d am ! i i i u t i 'Iiiiii T i m s , s \ s t e m , i t i e a n d c o n t i n u i n g s t u d i e s a r e e \ e n mni < I n i p u r (u u t BP Z \i'P I I 11 1 1 1 1 1 1 I \ 111 , l ( l e 1 siini iid like (o eolmiien I on .1 siI " el (nmi (lull 1 I I I I I I I s , \ \ *1 \ < . t I I H i < l e i i < a | ||< 1 I o < u 0 1 . 1 1 I \ ` I' I five individual by some sort of screening' test9 For dermatitis, for example, why not a patch test before he is put into contact with the suspected material on his job? Generally speaking', we do not recommend this procedure I be lieve one ot the biggest scale attempts at this sort of thing was the testing' of volunteers with mustard gas at the beginning of World War II A great many were tested m an effort to determine individual vainations m sensitivity One consequence of this program was that some of the men were sensitized to mustard gas and therefore reacted abnormally whenever they came in contact with small concentrations So, it is not a practical procedure to weed out the hypersensitive by a preliminary testing- program if we are dealing with a sensitizer. The other comment is that we can anticipate certain types of difficulty. For example, suppose we are dealing with a chemical that produces kidney injury It, would not be wise to expose a man who has only one kidney ; he might very well be abnormally sensitive And that brings up the importance of an adequate, preplacement medical examination and a classification of a man as fit, or unfit foi a certain type of exposure. DR jMcG B E May I add one thing which I think is important? It is the absolute necessity of a critical attitude m tying down the diagnosis 1 know of a few areas where it is more important to crossexamine a diagnosis and prove it to the extent that it is possible to prove it than in occupational disease. The very act of having a high index of suspicion when supervising an operation with a potential hazard sometimes leads to false diagnoses that can he troublesome I am reminded of the incident of the plant physician who was aware that a chemical could be a sensitizer of the skin and lead to a dermatitis He showed me a case of a very stubborn dermatitis, stub born because the man had been removed from the exposure for six months and still had the skin lesions. I was visiting the plant at the time I had a hunch of a different diagnosis when I saw the man's lesions, partly because I was not expecting contact dermatitis, as was the plant physician who lives with the problem every day I asked the patient it there were members of his family who had similar skin Trouble There were two members who had similar complaints. The diagnosis proved to be scabies for all three of the patients. . M O D E R A T O R A H E A R N Thank you v e i y much. We will go on ro the next question. " D o e s the usual Produets Inabil ity Pol i cy cover miv and a l 1 hntnlilv that may he imposed upon a muonfac t ui or for (1,images lesiilfinu from (lie use of Ins products' \[ It l l A f l . E I i i ' iol , ; In- ,1 us < i q u e s t i o n is >),\ o u s U n r i AiO | First of ail. it does not cover any liability in excess of limits Unit, mv provided m the policy. Second, it does not cover the liabilily Ihit I might be imposed upon a manufacturer for damage to the product itself. That liability is excluded in the normal policy. Third, uuisi product liability policies are written on what is called " techieI basis.' ' They cover liability imposed upon the manufacturer I'm damages arising out of the use of a product, caused by accident. A m dent is used there in the sense of some event which is identifiable in point of time and place of occurrence, as distinguished from jmIvnup effects which are cumulative over a long period of time or over a great amount of space For that reason, it is very important, and purlieu larly when you are considering the exposure of a manufacfurei- !<> a liability resulting from toxic effects of the products, that you keep m mind that a policy which is written on the usual accident basis is nut a satisfactory policy for your purposes In that instance. sou should be certain that your policy is written on what insurance men rlioiric to call " occurrence basis.' ' as distinguished from an " accident base ' I thing in one other instance the fact that it is on an aeeideut basis is important, because that also is designed to exclude mtv coverage of the results of business decisions that raigbl be made. If r pretty difficult to illustrate that in a case of products I think il i-. more apparent in the case of general liability policies You take He road contractor who has two methods of tearing up ,m arm < method is a little cheaper for him, but it involves exposing surround ing properties to damage by shaking or noise or something like ihai The other method, which might cost him a little isiI more money, would avoid that With that knowledge, he proceeds to follow Hie le-.,-. r\ pensive method That is a business decision the company ha-. ui.uh' M R. T. C W A T E R S May I ask one question ;is 1 Ilia/'' Win do not insurance carriers write policies on a broader basis so llu-v pvt beyond the concept of accidents* M R. B A T LE 1 think to answer fhat question you lia i ! In ill ii rl out with the premise that the insurance company, if it could, would lie very happy to write policies on a eomplefcly broad Iwinis, They vvould be very bppy to insure the total liability of industry T o do Unit, of course, we would have to receive the lolal income of ciieli rni pany individually, which you would be unwilling (o p.iv h.\ wnv nl pri'iuil)))) Therefore, it is flic quest mi) of bu lanci up (lie ink lliuf y.iu have been exposed to ng.nnst wind, you are willing to pas fui , iml net ess.tnl S' willing, but ssli.il sou can I'rasoi labis pay for S o it Is .1 q u e s t i o n oi n u t , l i m p (hose I my. ni l : , sshlrli lire iiiuut i i i m n m u ! o 11 a 11is! i \ pi uci i U \ 11 a 1 <os c m i c - 11u m iih I i s c l m (ui p the specific hazards of a particular company or industry which are sub jected to a much greater hazard than any other part of that industry or any other industry The second answer to the question, however, from the standpoint of products liability, is that the insurance industry in general will write the policy on an occurrence basis. What they are going to want to know in a particular industry is what are the hazards to which that company is exposed? And they will try to measure the rate that they charge m the light, of those hazards. But, as an additional point, for the company* that is exposed by virtue of the nature of its product to damage arising out of the toxic effects, it is most impor tant that they should have their policies written on the occurrence basis I think in the main it will be an insurable risk on an occurrence basis. M O D ER A TO R A IIE A E N Dr McGee DR M cGEE I disclaim any knowledge of product liability poli cies. As a physician, I would hope that no device or arbitrary fac tors would ever lessen the desirability" and need for a manufacturer to k no w those things about his products which are reasonable and which he should determine prior to their use M ODERATOR A H E A R N Thank you ve>w much The next question is ' ` Inasmuch as your industrial experience has been quite broad, what, based upon that experience, do you think constitutes the average corporate philosophy concerning management's responsi bility for the safety and protection of its employees' " Dr Bachman DR B A C H M A N : I think this is rather an interesting question, and. of course, can only be answered on the basis of one's own ex perience ; and I think m arriving at any statement or any thought concerning what the average corporate philosophy is today, one must review what has happened over the course of one's lifetime. The gen eral approach to safety 30 years ago was quite different from what it is today The companies that were mostly interested in the safety of then men were, m a large measure, those companies where you had sort of a pat'wpalisti c feelina between the owners of the company and towards their men. I don't think there was much of a concerted effort ior safety Some, perhaps, but not too great Then as time went on and we grew, we have had a change in economic and sociological conditions. I think we have had manage ment people, as a whole become much more socially conscious towards then !e!!mv man and conscious of their obligation-, to him over this i(l \<,u pm md Ti'mi lia-, treated a great deal of difference m the ,i|)p io w ii 1(i i ic\ H o ; i ill" sa 1el \ n w .is in es fo r " i n pi on " " s s i>r,2 l In addition. I think managements over the years have recognized that safety is economically sound for a number of reasons. If lias u very definite monetary value when you consider our compel hive economy. Processes have grown more and more complicated; new products have appeared This has caused the management 1o spent I more money' in order to build plants which inevitably have become complicated. With the plants becoming more complicated and the produel mu increasing, it has been very desirable for the management to sec ilml they obtain the highest quality of work and the most skilled worker,--, that they can The skilled worker became a very intricate cog m iInproduction wheel, and it was certainly most desirable to proleel him in the best possible manner, to look out for his health and i><- sure that he worked safely The loss through accidents or through sunnfatality would be serious, and, actually, mean a lot in dollars in pro duction tune and production effort I think this social conseiousnet.. and these other two factors have gone a long way in improving mn approach, to better and safer working conditions Furthermore, money has been saved, and this has been well recommended in (he s.-mitr in the workmen's compensation fees Again. I think another factor that makes it worthwhile for m.-ui agement, to have a very favorable attitude towards safely is Hint ii increases and improves the morale of their workers and 1 Know m our organization we have a saying, " A safe plant is rather a Imppy plant " And usually, if you have a happy plant, you h.i\<- your h-n-u difficulties and you get your best work. From mv own experience, I would say tiiat whereas in bygone years when one approached expenditures for safety piu-posm, flu. question might be raised, " I s this necessary'^' ', flu- allilmle taken today by most corporate managements is, "W ill Hus do good' IT it is likely to do good, then put it in " 1 think Ibis is rather ehm-nr teristic m my experience M O D E R A T O R A H E A R N Thank you very much Mr <>vm|i MR O V IA T T Dr. Bachman has prrttv well row-red llu. >,ub jert I don't know that all those who were safely eouseiou;. or .III years ago were paternalistic, bul there has been a d r l i u i l e elimine in philosophy Twentj'-five or thirly years ago Ilion- were -muill mlir maries that companies established willi pail tune me.lu-al |mt -ionite I, and they' sat hack w a i t i n g for .in-ulnils to happen Now t h e y f rv lo p r e v e n t a e e u l e n l s Tin--. >m> h> p r .il lenplli-. ami spend g t e a l s u m s o f m o n e y lo p r e v e n t . l e e n h u l , a n d I l l u n t i lion 1 t r u e o! most el the kiig........ i p o i a l l o n s K \ e t \ w o i i --. nun- of monej' are spent on fully-equipped hospitals m the plants and in the office buildings. They have periodical examinations made of their employees They have safety programs and training programs for the supervisors in the plants. A li in all, industrial medicine has become a large parr of the medical profession and a very important cog m an industrial organi zation I know from experience that the presidents of some of the divisions of large corporations put up trophies to be competed for by the plants to see who can have the least lost-time accidents over a period. While the accident statistics may not bear out the statements that have been made, nevertheless, there is that consciousness and a striving all the time for bettering their record; and I think the rec ords over-all are being bettered every year As long as employers are conscious of this safety and what it will gain, not only in a monetary way, but in a happy, well-knit organization, they are not going to let up just because they have arrived at some degree of safety I feel that is the philosophy today M O D E R A T O R A H E A R N Thank you. Now we will move on to another question. ` ` Have there been recently substantial changes in the law respecting the liability of a manufacturer to one injured by his product?" AIR B A 1 LE - That term "recently" is a relative term I f I would treat it as meaning in this century, I would say yes. there have been what you might call substantial changes, a change in concept and a change in application of principle Prior to 1916, generally in this country, you would have heard the rule stated that a manufacturer has no liability for injuries re sulting from the use of his product beyond persons who are in direct contractual relations with him In 1916. by the famous decision of .Justice Cardoza, that principle was finally broken down and in lieu of it was adopted the rule if a manufacturer would recognize that a defectively made product of his involved an unreasonable risk of harm to remote users or persons in the vicinity of remote users, that then he was under duty to make it carefully and from that has grown the general principle now-, that manufacturers are, in the main, liable for defects in their products or for hazards against which they can guard, even to those persons who have no contractual relationship with (limn Probably more important than that has been (he change m the .ipplu ai ion o' that rub Needless to say, ir any claim bv remote users sp.iumi .i ni,i m I ,i<!'. i<>! ihc problem o! < psa! hi'/ m a e m u s oik Ai i A il ] manufacturer may make his product at one place and it may travel through many hands over much territory and during a long period of time before it becomes a factor in somebody's injury. The problem is then to determine whether or not some activity on the part of t.lir manufacturer was the cause of that injury In the main, in the piml years our courts required rather specific proof of casual relationship If there has been a major change of our law. it is the tendency of out courts--and I am one of those who thinks it is a very undesirable and unfortunate tendency--to accept what. I call hypothetical or <pir:i tionable proof of relationship between cause and injury, f think IInme two main changes that have occurred have been very substanl ini changes and have greatly broadened the scope of the liability nf tlm manufacturer. MR O V IA T T I have very little to add The concepls of mm contractual relationship has been broadened the last few years I think the courts are inclined to stretch that doctrine peihaps ..................... a little too far, but that old doctrine of McPherson vs. Duiek (imipnm has opened a new thought on this question of liability, which I Ilimit is all right as long as they don't take it too far. M O D E R A T O R A H E A R N Thank you very much. Now. will go on to the next question " What are the possibilities of chumpim process equipment or methods of manufacture or use nf .1 Iomc nm terial in order to reduce the potential hazard9" M R H A T C H I should like to speak at gi eat long! h mi Ihi-, point but we don't have the time It is a very important poinl There me great possibilities for changing a situation from one n f m e a l il.'iipo 1 to one of relatively little danger through 1lie proper d e s i g n or e|mm, of process equipment. I don't know of anythin" m i n e fi nsl i nlioe than to work on a plant problem and to realize, while wrest ling wi t h it, that it should never have existed in the first pi,me. S o m e b o d y along the line failed to give proper at ten ti on to the selection of Ibr right kind of equipment so as to avoid the problem I feel Ihal tlm industrial hygienists who, up to now, h a v e been largely eonem nod with hazard control though application of vent dal ion ami olbot" pimli secondary measures must, in the tut.tire, give g n . d e ....... te.id* 1 nlloo to redesign of the process equipment itself for purposes of lumnrd control There are endless n u m b e r s o f ex a mp l es of tin erealinn of an uu necessary pioblem because of the f ai l ur e of dr,,i`rm,i;i of p i . <`f pi i [moil f fa m r o r p n t a j < i ni n Mi< tv m i l );i! I If m f up- p n r : 'l u u r* <1* j j /waI ,'))(! (<t .!<<"(ipt I ! mu Mh o t f K r ! .i m *'s| f n r . 1 1n Ii I \ In ' M i i m i b i lin- rial hazard which is on a par with the responsibility they assume for the operation of the process itself DR ZAPP I would certainly agree with everything that Ted Hatch has said. I notice that this question really concerns three things.- possibilities of changing process equipment, methods of manu facture, and use of toxic material. I am sure that we could think of examples of all three Ted has spoken of changing process equipment of one sort or the other Then, the manufacturer may sometimes be able to substitute a less toxic material As far as the hazard of use is concerned, I can think of some examples. I think it is almost a truism that we can control any toxic hazard if we are willing to go to the trouble to do it. Now. sometimes economics is a decisne factor there That is, if you have to take ex tensive measures to control a hazard, it may not be economically feasible to do it M O D E R A T O R J. H E A R N : Thank you, Dr. Zapp Next question : " Oan one distinguish between health impairment resulting from effects of handling toxic material and that resulting from fear (anx iety states) of effects from handling such materials9' ' Dr McGee DR M cGEE I think the answer is ` ` yes" for certain m aterial and !'no" for others I f a satisfactory differential diagnosis is to be made, there are two requirements First, there must be some objective test which is specific for the effects of the material By that I mean, by reliable chemical analysis. Second, there must be the ability to rule out a similar effect from anything else with which the worker may have come m contact inside or outside the plant In other words, we must be able to say that a specific health impairment resulted from the material in question and under circumstances where we can rule out other possible factors producing that end result. An example is the anticholinesterase effects of certain phosphoruscontaining insecticides You have an objective test, in most instances you have the opportunity to rule out other exposures which could alter significantly the level of cholinesterase m the blood There is another field, however, of materials whose effects are signs and symptoms which are rather vague I feel the clinician can not be sure whether such illness is a result of actual exposure to a malarial which is known to give such vague symptoms in the early stages Buitorfhes in 1he stomach, problems ol sleeping, malaise and the Id' are s y m p t o m s found f i o q n o i u l y m t he man who has. a n an\lely s l a f e S o m e t i m e s t h e r e c o g n i z e t ion i l i a; t he e x p o s u r e is wi.siilTi(it'll! to p i o d l i c e t h e d i s e a s e d s t a t e g i \ e s i.s a l e a s o t l a b h good clue di al an a n \ i e ( v is i <s| lotisi Idr ! 2fir> ! I flunk all the physicians present here will recall in their ex periences examples of epidemics of anxiety m groups of people he cause one or more workers felt that he had developed illness IVom u particular exposure He talked about it and others soon felt Ihey had the same symptoms. In some instances we have sufficient eon Iml nl' the environment to know exactly what weie the possibilities of expo sure and to say that it is impossible, under the amount of exposure for the episode to be a bona fide exposure with resulting illness Their fore, the entire thing must he on a psychosomatic basis. M O D E R A T O R A H E A R N - Now, we will go to another qucsl mu ` ` How adequate are animal experiments as a means of prediet ing Ins icity for human beings^" DR Z A P P - I f we are trying to predict effects on the lmimiu being, then the human being himself would be the ideal expemnenlnl animal We can't use man as an experimental animal, and, therefore we must accept other species as an imperfect substitute Now, perhaps the soundest basis for predicting the eH'orta mi man from the effects on animals is that our internal anatomy mill physiology are rather similar If we are dealing with a chemical llmi produces liver damage in dogs and other animals, then vv can he fairly sure that it. will produce liver damage in man We mu I be too sure about the quantitative reAtionship There are difl'eionocs in species of susceptibility Now, with all that, with the recognition that animal expeium-n tation is an imperfect substitute, I think we can look with .Mime -ulm faction at results that we have obtained in predicting ef fect s on men through animal experiments over the past TOO years We have ...... tamlv learned a lot from the animals, and we have, with the mtc ul perhaps arbitrary factors of safety, been guided by those re,soils in setting up criteria for safe practices with respect to man By and large, we have been successful There are exceptions There are materials that, affect man in ways that we eatmol rcptiidin'r in any experimental animal, but they are, fort an.dely, rat her ni re MR H A T C H 1 like the emphasis Dr Zapp put on the quaiili tative aspects For obvious reasons, it is not possible to translate IIn* findings on animals for direct application to man I low ad e q u a te are a n i m a l e\pci i m e i i t s I n some ease-, the\ are highiv adequate and m some other eases lliev haven'I been ade qua te ( erf a in I\ . none ol us H a u l to go a u a y fr o m here wi th the idea that the e \ pe l imen (,il a n i m a l c a n ei \e as all the i n s u o r . , hut lhc\ h a t e g i v e n Us 111 1III lII. I ( ion o f cl nil UK n IS v ai m S o I hoi e e Ihi <[ lies I mu t hat I h, ,i <11!i.. ii ul,o s .in i m p e l ! . o i l pa M m t he ! ud\ ol |u\i< a c e nl , M O DERATOR A H E A R N .- We have arrived at the moment when we would welcome questions or statements from the floor I f anyone has a question to ask about any phase of the discussion of the panel, I would welcome his getting up and giving his name and asking his question or making his suggestion D R ANNA M. B A E T JE R , Johns-Hopkms University I know that the time is very limited, and we have not had time to cover all the questions I would particularly (ike the panel to discuss two phases one. the three questions that deal with the labeling laws and the importance of these; and two, how can the consumer determine the composition of toxic materials sold under trade names? M O D ERATO R A H E A R N As a matter of fact, we had grouped those three together. Dr. McGee, will you take off on those questions? D R . M c G E E . How can consumers determine the composition of toxic materials sold under trade names9 Sometimes it is almost im possible to do so. From the standpoint of a practicing physician treat ing acute poisoning, such information comes in too late for him to help his patient His problem is that of taking a trade name and trying to find out what it means He gets a chemical identity as the first step, and he still doesn't know what the material is in a pharma cologic sense He has to have that material classified in a pharma cologic or toxicologic sense for the information to be of any help to him. I f he doesn :t know something of the biologic properties of the material, if he doesn't know the site of action, he will have no basis for intelligent therapy Too frequently, m our present setup, that in formation comes to him a little late to be m the best interests of the patient The labels are not big enough to contain all of this informa tion which might be required by the physician There are in some packages inserts of descriptive material which can be of use to him in some instances. I think, frankly, we must improve techniques for getting the in formation that is required to the customer, and in turn, to his physi cian where there has been an accident and resulting illness Poison control information centers may help M O D ERA TO R A H E A R N .- Thank you very much Dr Bach man, you are a chemical engineer 1 believe everybody would like !o hear your specific answers lo the question oi whothei a manui'.icturrr of toxic maf.ciials can be compelled to follow labeling resl richotif- ,m<1 r.mtions as loronmirnili'd by the Vianui'arl nnny Ubcm sls' Associai ion Also we would like lo ha\e your comiacnK on ll'c cur ion I status of cl] nrN by a liilmlnT iil oi ga11 /a(au,s. swob as 1 be Matin [ dGs ! facturing Chemists' Association, to develop adequate labeling and to standardize labeling. D R B A C H M A N . I don't believe the Manufacturing Che.uimtti' Association has any authority. My answer to that is no, I don't Imlieve manufacturers can be compelled to follow the recommendation!! of the Manufacturing Chemists' Association. On the othci limit!, I think it is highly desirable that they cooperate to the maximum degree possible, and I think the great majority of the manufacturers do ul tempt to do this because most of them are members of ihe Mantil'iie taring Chemists' Association. Now. as to the current status of these efforts, that is perhaps mi" of the most active committees in the Manufacturing Chemists' Anno ciation In many cases, it has formulated codes and labels to he used which I believe are being used. O f course. I think the crux of the whole question here is I'm- such organizations as the Manufacturing Chemists' Association, ''Ik- A m e r ican Medical Association, and the chemical specialty people In ml in gether and try to formulate a coordinated policy on l a b e l i n g W e m-e always going to have difficulties if you have sever,il a p p r oa c he s to labeling I think we must have a unified approach or, if it is broken down into compartments, these compartments must all o r i g i n a l " l'rmn the same source That is, they must originate from the s ame aid Imn l,\ be that authority one that results because people work together m- mw, that is enforced by virtue of government action M O D E R A T O R A H E A R N There are a n u m b e r o f assoe in I imirf including the Manufacturing Chemists' Association, b us y m libs lie).I I believe the American Medical Association is e q u a ll y art ho l t seems to me. Dr Zapp, I should ask yon to d e v o i r y o u r s e l f specifically to the question, ; i How can con sumers di-tm mi ne the emit position of toxic materials sold under trade m i m e s ' " D R . Z A P P : B e f or e I answer that, Mr Ahearn, 1 would like to make one comment on the current s tatus of the wmk of llu-se viinnuu associations The M a n u f a c t u r i n g C h e m i s t s ' Assuei.it mu, Muuiigh thruP r e c au t i o n a r y Committee. Ihe (tlu-mu-al Specialties M.'iniifiicliirim* Association, a nd the A meri ca n Medical Association hu\e npreril that they will work together towards w o r d i n g of some mu loriu hiholnifj; law oi at least a set of principles tii.it will guide these \.iri<ui,\ lisaoeui (ions rPhe t.' S M A g roup is now meeting in I ' ll il.-u lei ph in ml Mila ce - s' s.i itie s u l ijeet Thai is I h e e u r i e n l st at us. i s far.a-. I know ' Villi l e s p e e t to Q u e s t i o n `I t . I t h i n k ( h a t a l l l l i i r e o f ( l i e n r e i i e i e f i ( 11 .1 \ < 1 1. s t n i e i - ( u m e i | 1111 \ I a n it I . u I ii i h i " < ' l i e i m s i , \ ' m l i o n 1 Mi `.I I 1 C S.M A , and A M A . agree that there should he more information on product labels than there is at the present time I believe with respect to the industrial uses of chemicals, that industry is fairly well satisfied with 3VIC.A. "s principles of labeling as expressed in its Manual of Warning Labels, with which I presume all of you are familiar However, when it comes to the consumer, and particularly the user of small packages of cleaning powder or toothpaste or cement or what have you, it is agreed that there should be more information on the label so that the user will have some idea of the active ingre dients and some idea of the hazards involved m an accidental expo sure to material. One of the most frequent inquiries I suppose that we get in the clu Pont Company is. what happens if a child swallows a little du Pont, cement' It was never intended for that purpose, of course, but the question is. what happens ? Fortunately, the answer to that is. ` prac tically nothing, don'c worry about i t " : but that's the thing that the person needs to be reassured about. The physicians, on the other hand, would like to see on the label the kind of information that would enable them to treat eases of accidental exposure. Now, with all the good will in the world on the part of these organizations, there are still many practical difficulties involved in formulating a set of label ing principles that will do the job to everyone's satisfaction The householder really wants to know- how to keep out of trouble and avoid calling the hi D 's. And so it goes Now, I think tii at something is going to be done, and out of all this activity there will be more product information on the labels Meanwhile, we have the resources that Dr McGee told us about, the poison control centem There are one or two compilations that give us a good deal of information about the trade name products, and Dr Hodge of the University of Rochester is coming out with an encyclo pedia -which will give more information of that type But, ultimately, } the manufacturer is the best source of information if you need it. In ' most of these cases where information is needed in a hurry, I think it can be best obtained by getting in touch with the manufacturer or his branch office. M O D E R A T O R A H E A R N Thank you, Dr Zapp Mr. Bade, 1 believe to complete the discussion, you ought to answer this question " Arc present labeling laws adequate with respect to requiring warn ing and pret ontive mcasmes as to toxic qualities' " MR, H A I L E f tl imk flicic we first have to define the sense in which we me using the term adequate 11 we use the won! tn the sci'sc t hat i oin 1111a n ('< a s s n i c s m n i i m i i i v ih um R , d o n ' t Ro t he matin [ 270 | faeturer, our answer would be one thing and on the other hand, if we mean by adequate m the sense of sufficient requirements and m forcement to protect, the public from injury. I think there is a <lil' ferent answer. From the first standpoint, labeling laws as such do not give int munity from liability to a manufacturer by mere compliance with ftnlabeling law. The common law itself imposes a duty upon the maim faeturer to bring to the attention of the users of his product ami people who are in the vicinity of its use. the dangers which arc m herent in its use or may flow from it. He must comply wit h llmi standard. Considering it from the second standpoint--of the adequacy <>1 the laws to protect the public from injury-- I think we have to say I toil the laws as such are inadequate I am also one of those who has (In view that the laws will always be inadequate, because 1 think Hut' r. necessarily a lag between technology and its development. and l i e ability of legislators to act. For that reason. I have always felt that effective labeling lege, lation should be broad and general m its terms and depend for oiler tiveness upon detailed and limited regulations issued pursuanl !< that broad general statute I think when this is done, we are d i m able to more quickly adopt regulations to changing coin!if ion,s and m more effectively enable industry to comply, because they can hr m..i, specific and thus more clearly understood. As you know, the number of labeling statutes (hat r\is! are bad Even the person who confines his attention In I hat .stihjeri and nothing else, and there are few people who do, not only lias iltts . or four federal statutes with which he must, deal, but there aiv ........... 28 separate state statutes, and then there is a multitude of local m dinanees that have other effects upon us They have main advimlaec from the standpoint of imposing criminal liability In all in-dauec., however, they are not effective m enabling authorities to lalte mil <d the market the products that do not meet the reqiiirriuenls of Ibo.c statutes, and needless to say, the only way thal you can icully r ile lively prevent harm from .substances that are improperly in Ihe mur ket is to exclude them from the market h.v confiscation, M r A h e a r n , f would say by w ay of Mimm.uy dial, yes. our lain I me laws are inadequate Time need to be dimmed amt I iim hopeful they win be Mi l , W A T U h ' S 1 f l u n k (lie a u d i e n c e c o u l d he In ! r i r;,l ec I in | In cj 11 es I ton ol v h r i h e i U l d n s l i i c s s h o u l d l el l llirii e m p l o y e r ' , l l pi l t he u i i f e r i . i l t hev a l e h a n d l i n ' ' 's I c m e c u e. i r e n o ro e n I r /1 | M O D ER A T O R A H E A R N . I think we decided to group that question with the question, " Should information on the presence of toxic exposures m industry, obtained by health departments, be given to labor unions and employees or only to management %1' Dr. McGee. DR. M cG E E In answer to the first question, I have found no way to conduct a program which will get the cooperation of the em ployees without giving them the reasons for it. These people are en titled to it. I think the only successful programs that I have observed else where. outside of our organization, are those in which the employee has some knowledge of why he follows certain operating procedures regardless of what the end effect is of the material or the end effect might be in the materials that he handles. Therefore, I would say that we must give the employee that knowledge so that he can under stand and use it m coming to a conclusion as to why he must do cer tain things to protect himself. I think the same statements apply to organized groups and safety committees and union leaders M O D ER A TO R A H E A R N . Y ou draw no distinction as to infor mation made available? DR. M cG EE - That's right. FLO O R S P E A K E R .- It is required in Ohio to tell the employees of the toxic material m the department and it is required to repeat it to them monthly M O D ER A TO R A T IE A R N . Thank yon very much M A N F R E D B O W D IT C H , Lead Industries Association: I think there were two important matters not covered in the discussion of labeling. First of all, Dr. McGee said that very frequently the nature of the toxic substances gets to the doctor too late. I wonder if he is aware of the fact that the American Academy of Pediatrics has now established over 30 poison control centers from coast to coast. There are 15 in the State of Florida alone All of them are manned by tele phone 24 hours a day A ll are in charge of a physician, and at a meeting only day before yesterday it was agreed that the Public Health Service will be asked to take ovei i lie national direction ^f these centers and see that current information is supplied to all of them I really think that this is of importance. With regard to the matter of warning labels, there is a body of laws known as the Phaimacv Laws, which were designed to protect the public m pur chases over drug store counters In a court m one of the southern stales iccenlly, one of these laws was interpreted to covei a shipment ,,j h;'",nee in industry and an uwaid of -fPS 000 was made on that r 272 ] basis, and at the present time I understand that further suits amount ing to $80,000 are before the courts. I am told that only about ball' a dozen of the states have adequate exemptions to prevent such min* interpretations Only about three weeks ago I dismissed this with representatives of the Manufacturing Chemists' Association, and it in my understanding that they will take steps to try to bring proper exemptions into the laws of the other states. MR. T -J. L A N IG A N , General Electric Company 1 would lihe to hear discussion on the question. : How is it best possible in main tain a continuing safety awareness among employees engage 1 m hazardous occupations involving the use of toxic materials' ' ' MR H A T C H : To have an effective safety program iho people who are attempting to do this must maintain among themselves on awareness of safety needs that is stronger than the safety au amien, of the employees I have no particular procedure to suggest ninv I have had no special experience in developing and main fain mg Mieh awareness. I do know from experience, however, that (here is "re.ii risk if such awareness is not maintained and developed on (he p.ui ol everybody concerned. We have all seen good programs In-ral, donu because of lack of maintenance of awareness M O D E R A T O R A H E A R N : Dr Zapp. would you c oi umeu i i' DR. Z A P P . i will only add to what Ted Hatch 1ms said. I ihml. the promotion of the continual awareness of the .vilely pmeiuni among employees is a responsibility of supervision. Supervisor;, udl only do it if they know that higher management wauls (hem I<> do o Now, when safety policy is set at the top level of eompuny manner ment and is passed on down through the various supervisory elianuet'to the employees, then I believe the progiani can be maml ni m- d n<|r quately, and the employees will have a connumng ,n\ a renew; of t|u< program I f the foreman goes around an mea wilimu! we.-irme a iHnsf where a mask is required or without wearing sal'eli glasses m no area where safety glasses are required, obviously, by bis example. In is going to undermine the whole program If. on the other limnl. Im goes in with a mask on or goes in will; safety glasses on ami inmnln that olheis do likewise, he has a g,,r>d elumrr of euforei ug Ihr nih'ti and maintaining the continued awareness dial Hus question npenlui of M O D E R A T O R A H E A R N T h a n k v ou M r It,nib', j mi nee d m general counsel of an insurance emup.nn i( seems m ..... you me (lie panelist to answer these two questions ` Wh.il mrdiods an- avuilnhle to insurance carneis (<> assist (heir insuml, m flu- preiocl om ul em phneos and die pin chasing pulilie ........ flu- h.i n<I. <if Inwe ma terials?" and. ` "What methods are available to insurance carriers to assist small industries in the detection and control of hazardous con ditions?" MR. B A IL E : I think those questions are primarily directed to the insurance carriers' place in contributing towards the reduction of accidents in industry, either among the employees or m users of the product or in third parties who might be otherwise affected by the ac tivity of the employees of an industry. I think that it can probably come under eight points: First is the function that Dr. Zapp has already mentioned, that is, through the sale of the insurance there is brought to the attention of top management the importance of the safety program It has a very direct influence on the amount of costs, a very substantial item in the cost of any industry. By bringing that to bear on the top management, you get the influence which Dr Zapp suggested, which is so necessary', of tkat philosophy going down through the various echelons of the company. Also, I think it is that very force that brought about the changes in the philosophy of industry that we referred to earlier I think the safety awareness of industry has been, to a great extent, brought about by the influence of the salesmanship, if you will, of the insur ance industry. But in a more practical sense, the insurance industry contributes through its engineering facilities and its suggestions and participation in the development of safety programs in any industry This consists of arranging and conducting safety meetings, distribut ing the proper type of literature, and the proper type of postings Secondly, by its own engineering, it supplements the safet.v program of a company in ascertaining where the hazards m that industry exists And m doing- so, it approaches if, T think, with a greater ob jectivity, because it is uninfluenced by those unconscious influences which company^ people are subject to. such as the costs of changing a process, the reduction in time, or the increase in time which some change of process to incorporate a safety factor would involve Another way in which they can contribute is in the preparation of a catastrophe plan for specific hazards. Insurance carriers can aid in the development of drills so that companies are prepared m the event those catastrophes occur. Another manner in which they aid is m the supplying of infor mation for the pi oparufion and distribution of safety material. The insurance mdimiry ai-omres the collective knowledge of many nidus11 i(s and can In mg l lint knowledge to {lie aid of a particular company The iiisiii mu ' r,i i r 11 r also a ids m ' lie propa' afion of p u r c h a s i n g [ 271 ] agent manuals, which is a method of coordinating the receipt of tox i<materials into a plant, so that knowledge comes to the attention of tin* production personnel of the nature of the product that is being brought in, m order that proper safety precautions can be taken. Finally, I think the contribution that the insurance carrier rim make is to maintain the awareness of safety 1 think the greal difli culty that occurs m many industries is that you develop a program In avoid accidents and prevent accidents It has a peak, and then it Icm la to slacken olf Every once in awhile it needs to be rejuvenated I think the fact that the engineers of the insurance carrier and Is stall' come m regularly and constantly bring safety to the attention of IIn people at the production level helps establish the habit of sal civ ami it is that habit which in the long run will prevent many accidents M O D E R A T O R A H E A R N - On that same point, will yon claim rate on methods available to insurance carriers to assist small imlir tries ? MR. B A IL E . I might say this. I think there is a distinction llmi should be drawn there. In some industries, because of their size. Hum are able to employ the technical talent which is required in oilVeiing a sound safety program: whereas w other industries, because of tinsmall number of employees they are not able to have people lm Mill specialize in those particular problems In that instance, (he insurance earners become another arm of the company and supply il wilh leelun cal talent which it doesn't have available within its own personnel M R . O V 1 A T T M r . Baile, isn't it true That t he i n s u r n i u e c o m panies look to the larger manufacturers many t imes in get m i n i m a tion on these toxic materials, on the processes that ar e u s ed ,-m<| I Insafety devices that may be necessary ? MR B A IL E Very much so. MR. O V IA T T And then they can unpaid that knowledge to lie smaller companies that are not in a position to lure these highly trained experts? MR B A IL E 1 would say that, is definilely Ime M R . O V I A T T T h e r e is al so a n o t h e r \va\ I l l i m k v o n wi l l h e a r me o u t on t h i s -- t h a t i n s u r a n c e c o m p a n i e s h a v e been h e l | i l u l T h a i i'i m m a k i n g c o n n t s - - - f u m e c o u n t s , pet r o gi a |line a u . i l v ses , a m t no I m l h T h e y go m i n the pi,m i s to ma k e these urn! ma k e lln-n ii-eoni meml.it ions MR B A I L i-i i tli.il :s l i g ht ME. O V IA T T I would like to add just one word if I may to the earlier question on efforts to develop adequate labeling and to standardize labeling Those on the panel who spoke to that question failed, I think, to mention the fact that the Manufacturing Chemists' Association at present has a law, a proposed federal law for labeling and for the far more important matter of confiscation. You can have criminal statutes all over the place, but throwing a man in jail or fin ing him $10,000 will not save the life of someone using a chemical that is not properly labeled. I think this confiscation feature is all-impor tant This new law that M .C .A proposes does take care of that ade quately as to the defining of what a poison is and setting forth tests for determining a poison. Now, what will become of that law. no one knows That is the present status of the M C A 's efforts M O D E R A T O R A H B A B N : Thank you DR. B A C H M A N : I would like to comment m reference to earlier questions To maintain safety awareness you must say that a company has to tell its employees what the nature of the materials is which they are handling, whether they are toxic or carcinogenic, because you can never have a safety program unless you give the people working with toxic or carcinogenic materials such information. I don't think that was adequately emphasized before I think as far as the question of the most economical and best way a small plant can get help on problems of toxicity and industrial hygiene, the obvious answer is a good consultant. I don't know if there is enough consulting work done in a continuous manner with the different smaller companies. DR. T H O M A S h S H IP M A N , Los Alamos Scientific Laboratory. I would like to have this question discussed " I f a manufacturer con forms to the highest standards of an industry m the manufacture of his product, will that be a complete defense in an action against him for injuries resulting from his product?" In placing this question before the panel, I would like to remind them of the experience of some of the electrical product manufacturers and their difficulties with beryllium M O D E R A T O R A H E A R N Mr Oviatr. let me ask you to answer that question. MR O V JA T T I think that can be categorically answered as " no." There have been cases where a court has held that even though (lie standards o^ the industiy have been followed, the highest siaml- ,II(K tli.it u n d e '- th e c n i'm iis l.u ic r s th ose s ta n d , i n k u v e o ' t h ig h [ 27(i I enough Each individual manufacturer must assess his own product and go beyond, under certain circumstances, the standards set by the industry That is so even though labeling laws are followed M O D E R A T O R A H E A R N Mr Baile, would you care to add some thing to that answer1? MR B A I L E . B y way of addition The responsibility o1 the manufacturer is essentially one to conform with the standard of care that the law imposes. Now, that standard may be imposed either by statute, by judicial decision or by what is probably a pretty vague standard, namely, the standard of care of a reasonable man neling under those circumstances Now, in determining whether that third standard has been met, a court or jury should take into consideration what the practices ami standards of an industry are, but they are only a measure for (lie I'.-n-f finder to use and are not binding upon them. In other words, the wide spread adoption of a particular method or practice will be a fexl fur determining whether or not reasonable care was used. But 1lie eoiu-i-, have said that 12 lay people, who don't know a thing about the hum ness, can say you could have used more care I can't believe llm! reasonable care can be any more than an industry would use. because I don't think industry would ever adopt, as a widespread practice, n careless practice if there were a safe one The court seems to think llml 12 jurors can say they can I might say, whenever I have been confronted with that problem, I have always remembered the one judge who said the only reasonable man he ever knew was his wife's first husband MR S C H W E N Z F E IR , J R , Brush Beryllium Company I would like to have the expression of the panel on the distinction in labeling procedure between what is required for a retail product and who! v> required for industrial products. It has been inferred that it is m>l particularly important to exercise greater care in labeling if the product is to be handled in commercial use. though d may be in i-t-1iitI It is implied in another question that the manufacturer of (lie toxic material can pass the responsibility on to (lie rnrpornle pur chaser, who. in tuin. passes the ha/ivd <>" fo employer I wondei if that is really correct. MR. B A I L E i f i understand youi question a m a n u f a c t u r e r h a s a d u t v wi t h respect to m v n i g a l t n l u i l c s oi 111<` p r o d u c t l<> (lie 111f .................... .. I r l 's s n In ,i m i d d l e p i n c h , s s e i u l m i c p . n l>a p e s i! it is 111 u,, W h o l t u ' i w a r n i n g ' : lei to l l m u Ii m 'i lie r i e | | h t or imimlliiiui like M R. S C H W E N Z F E IR , J R . : No, intermittent handler is another production concern, like this bulk packaging: that was in one of the :arlier questions of the program MR. B A I L E : Your question, then, concerns the liability of the nanufacturer who distributes in bulk to people who handle that prodict in transportation and who are employees of the purchaser who use t m some manufacturing process? M R S C H W E N Z F E IR , J R Right M R B A IL E : I would say by way of answering that, first of all. -C C regulations, of course, control to a large degree the requirenents of labeling in transportation. Now, they are designed primarily :or the protection of employees who are handling it m transportaion. and, of course, conformance with that is required and if there s a lack of conformance and injury results to employees of carriers 'Vho are transporting it, liability would be imposed From the standpoint of the employees of the purchaser of the product, the problem there, as I see it, is this: The law imposes upon ,he manufacturer the obligation to give warning, reasonably ealcuated to call to the attention of the users or potential users of the product the hazards that are apparent in that product Now. notice, it is a duty of reasonableness that is imposed upon .hem It would be an utter impossibility for the manufacturer of earpon tetrachloride, le t's say, to go to every employee in every manu facturing plant that uses that and inform them as to the hazards that ire involved in the use of it So. the law recognizes, under those cir cumstances, that if the manufacturer brings to the attention of the purchaser whose employees are going to use it, the hazards of that product, or if the purchaser without having it brought to his attention s aware of the hazards of that product, then there is no obligation on ;he part of the manufacturer to inform them, because the law never requires a man to do a vain act. You don't have to tell somebody the langers in a product when he already knows them Then the law im poses upon that employer the duty of providing his employees with a safe place to work and of passing on knowledge of hazards to the employees so the employee can take such action and exercise such care is is necessary for his own protection Does ihut a n sw e r the question oi am ! still missuni u M !\ S( 111 W E N Z F E I It .lit T h ai ' s it T h a nk \ou M O D E K A T( )K A t t E A U N lie Moor ' Nun ,s there anolbet quistm n I rom [ Li7 <S i MR W W. H O D G E , Koppers Company, Inc 1 would like In hear discussion on the question of how industry can best work wilh governmental groups in order to be certain that regulations for flic control of hazardous materials are proper and reasonable. M O D E R A T O R A H E A R N Mr Hatch, we had assigned von to answer that question MR. H A T C H . I am not certain what the framer of this question had m mind--obviously, there are many different answers to if. Industry, presumably, does have a large volume of informal inn that can be best utilized by working with governmental agencies in order that the proper regulations be formulated. I have in iniml ....... very specific way in which industry is working with an official agrnc\ to make sure of proper regulations, and that is in the Stale <if New York, 'where under the procedures for developing or regulating rodeo for industry, it is required that an advisory committee be forimil.-d rd. including representatives from the industries directly involved, those who supply equipment to be used in industry, repreMUilal ives f r o m labor unions, and so on. Nov, T think the important point here is this, m flu very 1'rain ing of this procedure, recognition is given to the fact the! Ilie prob lem pertaining to the use of a particular toxic substance in one par tieular industry may be different from the problem rhaf arises in the use of that same toxic substance m some other indusfiy, and Mini In be reasonable regulations must recognize this. Regulations developed from this point of view are distinguished, for example, from a general regulation which consists principally of a list of permissible ........ ..... trations. Take carbon monoxide, for example: adequale regiilnlimw for control of this hazardous gas should be ditforeni from irguliilumr-; governing its control in steel mills This is recognized in the New York procedure, and prm i-aono are made for the active participation in formulation <d' ' ml miry eodeo by those people from the industries who do have needed inI'nriim! imi and experience Obviously, to he objective, d must he agreed by nil those who do participate that the purpose is 1 o come out wilh a eepn lotion which will in fact proven I ill healfh or aero lei 11 s We had in this room not long ago a public merlin;- which tool lln> sumo purpose here m Pcnnsyhnma Prior In flic ollieud mlnplinu nl! regulations pcitammg to a ceil,mi indn.s! rial hu/.iid, people Iduni die industries who could bring unpin fan! informal tun and e\p<<i lourtIn he.n on Ilie problem were m\iled In .i(te11<i and o<ntIi ihu|e aupee.i lions u !)11 h would m.ikr tile iui a1c<h!r tool r effer!ivc ! hi Ileer Iha| 11n '-obis! 1les lh.il do 11,t\< l|us in11a niaIoni Jnnild wihmin and uoliid should search for opportunities to bring this information to the official agencies and work with them in translating it into reasonable regu lations. M O D E R A T O R A H E A R N : Now, we have room for about one more question Who has a question to ask* R. C E R IC K S O N . Aluminum Company of America How would you propose to bridge the gap between safety and the business re vealing trade secrets when such became necessary in the interest of safety ? D R . B A C H M A N O f course, the question of trade secrets is rather an interesting question. If you have rather a fundamental patent on a process, you usually are adequately protected L e t's try to confine ourselves to the area where we say the patent protection is not available I think this is going to be a tough one Frankly, I think about the only way that it could be handled would be-- well, there are two ways. If the number of companies in volved were small, I think it likely that Company A possessing the trade secret might be quite willing to make the information available to Company B with the sole restriction that this information not be used by Company B except insofar as it was used for the purposes of protecting the health of the employees or for rendering the work safely If the secret information or the confidential information, let us say, were to be used for purposes of profit in the manufacture of the item, there Company A would properly expect a remuneration from Company B This is fairly standard without the element of safety. There are a lot of companies today that go out and deliberately buy confidential information rather than patent information. When you go beyond the relationship existing between the few companies and try and say that this is something that would be broadly applic able to a great number of companies, I don't know how you could do that except through some form of perhaps very fine social feeling, let us say, social consciousness on the part of the company possessing those trade secrets and indicating a willingness to make available in their fellow countrymen at large such information 1 think ihat is 11 h only other possible approach whereby you can achieve thal So. T thinlc you h a v e two eases, one where panies involved are limited, tins can he handled le.s involved not limited and vei\ huge ! hen believe, enti rel y upon the soeml consciousness ol (heeoeipUMV holding (he Ir.idc s o n 1 the number of com Where the eonip.m win must depend. I the in.m.igemenl of 1 WI ! M O D E R A T O R A H E A R N . You would never think ii wise lo undertake concealment if the price of concealment was to bring <Ii111eulties to a man's health ? D R B A C H M A N : O f course, I am a little bit biased. J (imi'l be lieve people are such blackguards that they would do those things M O D E R A T O R A H E A R N : Gentlemen. 1 think I anticipate I Inwishes of the audience when I express to Dr. McGee, D r Bachman, Mr. Baile, Mr Oviatt, Dr. Zapp. and Mr. Hatch, your appreciation <>l` the contribution which they have made to our knowledge. We have had a distinguished panel, and I hope and believe that we have It.<uI a very profitable session. I would like to say on behalf of the panel, you have been a gon.l audience. You have been very attentive and very courteous, and llmf has inspired the panel to do a good 30b. You have to have a y.....I audience to have a good panel We have had both here today | :>H I i