Document KGoRrVM5bDaMXOOvX8NN2ky92

Tuesday, I5th May, 1928. M0TE3 Of EVTDEH (S3 Baleen before THE COMMITTEE APPOINTED BY THE MNI3TER OF HEALTH To enquire into the possible dangers to health resulting from the use of motor spirit containing lead tetra-ethyl or similar lead-containing compounds, and to report what precautions* if any, are desirable for the protection of the public or of individuals in connection with the use and handling of such motor spirit." Present 3ir Frederick Willis, K.B.E., C.B. CChairman 1 Dr J. c. Bridge, f .r .c .3. Professor A* C* Chapman, F.R.3. Professor w, E, Dixon, UvD;, F.R.3. Major w. R* Galway* O.B.E., M.C., M*BDr c. H* Lander, D* 3c. 3ir Charles J* Martin, C.M.G., D.so., F.R.s., 8.R.C.P Mr D. R. Pye Sir Robert Robertson Sir wuiiam Willoox, K.C.I.E., C.B., M.D., f .r .c .P. Mr S." F* 3. Hoarder, (secretary) (Transcript from the Shorthand notes of GEORGE MOORE & co*, 58, Parliament street, Westminster, 3.W,l. a Telephone*- Victoria I875. ) 7.^5? Dr II* CO^IAMS called and examined* 7-'S*s'; -.- ^ `f Vi&*Sj&G -.A<'--V2i. A}y \ ^' 0018250 CHAIRMAN: You are an K.D. of London, I understand?----- Yes. 0 You have studied medicine and the details of medicine? - <4 You have done a good deal of research work? Yes. . 7>fl *- Q, You have published a work in the Journal of Toxicology, ;rf|f and you have Dean associated with Sir Richard oraham, a fellow of The Royal society, on this same subject?----- Mot exactly the same subject but on toxins* 0 we are very much obliged to you for furnishing this Memorandum you have sent in to us: wo shall keep it oh our records, and we propose to put some questions to you arising out of your work, in the main, of course, what ; we want to Know from you is precisely what experiments you yourself have made, your observations and what results you have obtained, #nd what deductions, if any, you have drawn from the experiments. ; I notice, for instance, that you paid a visit to the United jtatee in the summer of 1927, and you took the opportunity of consulting various people in America in regard,t> the use of ethyl petrol. You then -- - ............... refer us to the report or The Bureau of Mines in regard to .. ,. the experiments which they have carried out, and you refer'W^ to various American reports. On th3t I may soy that the .? Committee have been furnished with practically all these ; reports that you have mentionedj still, we are much obliged 'h?$v5 to you for giving ua the references. I gather that you do not in your paper refer to tho 3urgeon~Generals report. .era you awaro of that report? -- Oh yes. iSie oy>y<a T mt "i * 'Ow , * m ^SiSSS&diiWTHfliWfcVfe'A * *- . c h a ir ma n : y o u are an M.D. of London, X understand?-----Yes, Q You have studied medicine and the details of medicine? . Yfjj Q, You have done a good deal of research work?-----Yee. . . Mf| Q, You have published a work In*the Journal of Toxicology, \ and you have bean associated with sir Richard oraham, % a Tallow of The Royal Soci-^tv, on this same subject? --- Hot exactly the same subject but on toxins, 9 Ye are very much obliged to you for furnishing this Memorandum you have sent in to us: wo shall keep it oh our records, and we propose to put some questions to you arising out of your work, in the main, of course, what we want to know from you is precisely what experiments you yourself have made, your observations and what resultsP5 you have obtained, and v;hr>t deductions, if any, you have dra' from the experiments. X notice, for instance, that you paid a visit to the United states in the summer of 1927, and you took the opportunity of consulting various people in America in regard to trie uae of ethyl petrol. You then refer us to the report of The Bureau of Mines in regard to fi the experiments which they have carried out, and you refer us Mi to various American reports. On th3t i may say that the Committee have been furnished with practically all these . reports that you have mentioned; still, we are much obliged to you for giving us the references. I gather that you do not in yourpapef.refar to the Surgeon-denerai s report. MS Mir Were you aware of that report? -- Oh yes* Tor instance, X notice that professor Edeall or Harvard "i*. life signed a preliminary report with a Mr Drinker, and they give rather a different view as to the danger of ethyl petrol from that which was subsequently arrived at by the Government committee in America; and Professor Edsall ; M"' 1- of Harvard was a memberm.of this Committee subsequently; ` i-M ~ 'V... 0 VO V V 5' ui- u. ^*ans I <10 not Know whetliar you are aware of that? -- Tula report was published in 1925. * *7- q Tea. -- I rather think that the 3urgoon-oeneral'0 report'"j>`f#A saw the light of day somewhere about January 1926, q That is right; and the work was done, t think, between - & -- May 1925 and the end of 1925. The written report was published in 1926. -- I think the Surgeon-deneral in his report asked for an appropriation from Congress in order to carry on experiments, q That is quite true; hut they did issue a report in 1926. ,^f3j I notice that you refer to certain discrepancies between ` yi the full report of The Bureau of Hines which was published 7c S in 1927 and the draft preliminary report which they made At in 1924.? -- Yes. .V7j- q The full report in 1927 of course embraces a great deal more than what had been done in 1924? ---- A good deal of that work refers to matters outside our scope here, q You are quite right* v This committee is concerned ' * to enquire into the question of whether there is any danger from the use of commercial ethyl petrol. ;,v. X notice that you refer to the possible danger in traffic blocks of a large number of cars using ethyl * petrol? --- Yes* 4? q Have you yourself made any experiments to ascertain % these facts? -*-- I have taken them from Professor liendersotf s work in Hew York; but t tnink X was quoting from the reports, q That is what I gathered. You yourself nave not done any experiments of that kind? *-- Ho. saw the light of day somewhere about January" 1926* q That is rights and the work was dona, I think, between i-- Hay 1925 and tha end of 1925* 7119 written report was published in 1926.----- X think the Surgeon-Qeneral in his report asked for an appropriation from Congress In order to carry on experiments* Q mat is quite true; but they did issue a report m 1926. X notice that you refer to certain discrepancies between the full report of The Bureau of Hines which was published in 1927 and the draft preliminary report which they made.;, / in 1924 ? -- Yes Q, Ihe full report In 1927 of course embraces a great deal more than what had been done in 1924-7 -- A good deal of that work refers to matters outside our scope here. >v,; q You are quite right. This committee is concerned to enquire into the /question of whether there is any danger from the use of commercial ethyl petrol. I notice that you refer to the possible danger in traffic blocks of -a large number of cars using ethyl petrol? --Tes. ' 3 v .r V* X'-\ % Have you yourself made any experiments to ascertain t h e - se fac ts? ----v : X x-iyiatv. e t ake n them from pro. fessor Henderson s-work in Hew York; but x think I was quoting ,1 & from the reports, ' ' *`V"MwU / .ACT-V. ' q That is what X gathered, you yourself have not done any experiments of that kind? Ho< ;r-r Dr oopians q Yen also refer to the poseioie pollution of wells and water supplies? ----- Yes* q Fat you nave made no examination of water supplies and wells in order to see whether they are polluted? -- The experiments were conducted in such a way that one would necessarily infer that it was possible to pollute '- these places. 0 I suppose you would agree generally with this; we all Know /} the danger of lead poisoning, and that a certain amount of ^ lead is necessary to produce lead poisoning. But if you hare an infinitesimal amount of lead in a river, that is not dangerous. If you have a large amount of lead in a river, of course it would be dangerous. It is a question of amount? -- And time, sir, q And time? -- And of'course the amount involves the question of sex and age, q Yes. What experiments have you yourself done, First of all I thinK you have had an examination mad of the lead contents in the excreta of certain men who had worKed inagarage^ ? -- There were two men who were Kept under independent medical observation by their own doctors and also by a specialist representing a London teaching hospital, where they are expected to do that worK, with the results that I have stated. There were only two mechanics employed at this place, otherwise more men would have been examined, but it was not possible to examine more than two men. It was necessary to lit V* * But you have made no examination of water supplies and wells in order to see whether they are polluted? -- The experiments were conducted in such a way that one would necessarily infer that it was possible to pollute J these places. X suppose you would agree generally with this; we all Know the danger of lead poisoning, and that a certain amount of lead is necessary to produce lead poisoning* But if you have; an infinitesimal amount of lead in a river, that is not dangerous. If you haye a large amount of lead in a river, * ; of course it would he dangerous. It is a question of amount? , ft -----And time, sir. 0. And time? -- And of course the amount involves the question ^ of sex and age. Yes. What experiments have you yourself done, First of all j I thinK you have had an examination made of.the lead contents - in the excreta of certain men who had worxed inagarage> ? -- There were two men who were Kept under independent medical observation by their own doctors and also by a specialist representing a London teaching hospital, where they are expected to do that worK, with the results that I have stated. There were only two' mechanics employed at this placed otherwise more men would have been examined, but it was not; - possible to examine more than two men, it was necessary to `It obtain their consent, And there was a special circumstance, ^ that this .thing had started by being asKed to give an A' opinion about one car, I began by having the engines tested. I then advised that these men should be medically taxeri care of, and a fortnight or three weeKS elapsed before the consent, was obtained and the men examined, : ih W Dr ooplans Q You didnoot examine these men before your experiment started* ----- Ko; they were not examined at all as far as I Know, 0. You do net Know whether if you had examined them a month before this srorK started you would have found the same amount of lead? ----- It is quite possible* q Youdo not Know,--?------I do not Know at ail. But I understand ' that it is possible that these men do handle lead occasionally But they do not handle it in this form; they handle it in the, ordinary form -- that may be in mass, o And you only examined the bowel content of one of these men? ----- All these men were examined before I examined them, Q But you did not get a proper person to examine the bowel content of men worKing in garages who were not suffering from tetra-ethyi, for comparison? - -- Mo, I did not. After all this is a very email fact. 0. 1 am not saying whether you should or should not have done so? In this connection it was not done, Q Then you mxe a general statement; Hspectroscopic examinationwith photograph! record was employed on every occasion for the purpose of detection of the presence of lead", is that a quantitative test? -- within aertain limits it is ; both quantitative and qualitative, c&JkJmMxA* 3 You do not.aAe>4fe entirely on the spectroscopic examination? -- I did not "examine at all, I simply examined the reports j \ of the doctors who examined them, Q Did those people who did examine them depend entirely on spectroscopic examination? --- I am not prepared to say. q You do not Know whether they got the lead out and weighed it? ; KE Q. you do ni et Know whether if you had examined tnern a month before this worK started you would have found the same amount of lead?-----It is quite possible, Q. you do not Know.?-----i do not Know at all. But I understand ~ that it is possible that these men do handle lead occasionally But they do not handle it in this form; they handle it in the? ordinary form -- that may be in mass, Q And you only examined the bowel content of one of these men? ----- All these men were examined before I examined them. H But you did not get a proper person to examine the bowel content of men worxing in garages who were not suffering front! tetra-ethyl, for comparison? - -- h o , I Olid not. After all this is a very email fact. a I am net saying whether you should or should not have done so? In this connection it was not done. Then you naxe a general statement; "spectroscopic examination with photographic record was employed on every occasion for the purpose of detection of the presence of lead", is that a quantitative test? ----- Within certain limits it is both quantitative and qualitative. ctjdagsUcL 3 You do not H.fcesgifaf entirely on the spectroscopic examination? -- I did not"examine at all, i simply examined the reports of the doctors who examined them. Q Did those people who did examine them depend entirely on spectroscopic examination? ----- i am not prepared to say. Q You do not Know whether they gat the lead out and weighed it?.: ----- I do not Know. I should thinK not, because such a point V was made that there was such a minute quantity, | Q There were some other people who made these tests and you . *s> #f utilised the results, for what they were worth?----- yes, / %: 0 Then another experiment you made was to examine some pieces cf 0018266 .6 r;v: V*. Hr ooplans. the overalls of these sent -- Yes, r'rf: q Did you for comparative purposes examine pieces of the overalls of other men wording in other garages?----- o. Ta * $$ q so there again you yourself have not got the basis of comparison? -- These facts simply Confirm the prtesence of lead. Q Quite. Then you maxe the statement that the laundry to which garments so stained are sent should ordinarily be notified of the risxa of handling such material, more particularly by laundresses. Thy do you say that? ----- I thinK that laundresses handling garments of worxers in lead should be notified of it toy reason of the particular susceptibility of women -- handling lead. Do you happen to Knew whether laundries are notified when the overalls of lead worxers are sent to them?----- I/io not Know, tout I Know that in the north of England when they obtain garments frojrn the lead wcrKers the people are warned that they come from lead workers, - . - Q What sort of lead workers? --- They may &e white lead-- ordinary lead. There are quite a number of instances. That Kind of suie applies to all laundries being notified. DO you seriously suggest that these particular overalls that we are concerned with are so laden with lead that it is dangerous to send them to the laundry? -- I do. You seriously maxe that statement?-----I thinx so. People. ;.,,.. habitually handling a garment liKe that I thinK ought to be warned* " Then yow.. made an experiment about the, evaporation of lead with K* overalls of other men warxing in other garages?----- n o , q so tnere again you yourself have not got the Oasis of comparison? -- These facts simply Confirm the presence of lead. q Quite, Then you maxe the statement that the laundry to which garments so stained are sent should ordinarily be notified of the risxs of handling such material, more particularly by laundresses, Thy do you say that? --- I thinx that laundresses handling garments of workers in lead should be notified of it by reason of the particular susceptibility of women -- handling lead. Q Do you happen to Knes. whether laundries are notified when the overalls of lead workers are sent to them? ----- ^do not ! Know, but l Know that in the north of sngland when they obtain garments froja.the lead workers the people are warned that they come from lead worxere, Q That sc-rt of lead wo.riri.ers?----- They may be white lead -- crdinarj lead. There are quite a number of instances. That Kind of suie applies to ail laundries being notified, Q DO you seriously suggest that these particular overalls that we are concerned with are so laden with lead that it is dangerous to send them;to the laundry? -- I do, ^^ Q you seriously maxe that statement? -- i thinx so. people habitually handling a..garment uxe that I thinx ought to be .. . ' ''--..` r-fjOfii* warned. Q Then you made an experiment about the evaporation of lead with much that as to seeing the possibility of removing it. Q You put a certain amount of ethyl petrol on the sxin? /3>. ----- on my own sxin, and I tried to rub it off with a linen -, ! swab soaxed in xercsene, [ 6 Vi r' H \ v) V A H 0018 2 Dr Coplans, \ , rf ; `J#:A a Then you estimated the amount of lead in this linen swabt . ' i ^ v-' -----Yes. Q. Then by calculation you show that what was not removed by the r , y> linens* swab was absorbed by the sKin?----- Ko. All I say`is tnat it was not removed. q You say the sKin of the arm had absorbed .54 milligrams? ; ----- The sKin had absorbed it. q You do not say it was merely net removed but you say the sKin had absorbed it. That is on page 8. You do not say i# t was - V# aosoroed but that it was not removed?-----Yes. , "P - ; Vj Are you acquainted with this experiment that was carried out t Lr Kehoe?-----The only experiments that X Know of are these experiments quoted in the green booK -- if I may call it the green bocK. It is confirmed by the facts in regard to the guinea pigs -- it is on page aeo. There is a table. Are you acquainted with an experiment toy Dr Ke Kept a monxey for three years and on the sKin of the petvo i . monKey 720A of lead+/-~was placed during the three years. Two cubic centimetres of ethyl petrol -- after that shia particular monKey was billed and only a trace of lead was **/ Vr; --- . mj AT.'/ found in'the monKey--no more than was found in a control ^1 animal?-- That may be so, .It may be that the monKey in did not absorb it. On the other hand,/a very large number of experiments in which the material was only absorbed ay the sKin itwas found in the foetus recovered from the animal. That was confirmed by Flinn. He painted the sKin of some goats, and not only was the material absoroed but the .aborted and the l^a^^as^.fo^nd in the foetus?: Q Then uy calculation you show that waai; was not removed oy the linens* swab was absorbed by the skin? -- Ho. All I say . <i-s .. - thvfc it was not removed. -V-.J ,A .Vs 7^ ,. Q You say the skin of the arm had absorbed ,64 milligrams? S\i '' ----- The skin had absorbed it. 3$ - ^to'vra You do not say it was merely not removed but you say the skin-l . ; f| had absorbed it. That is on page 3. You do not say it was . absorbed but that it was not removed?-----Yes, ?s Are you acquainted with this experiment that was carried out by Dr Kehoe?----- The only experiments that I know of are these experiments quoted in the green book if I may call it the'iJ green bock. It is confirmed by the facts in regard to the guinea pigs -- it IS on page 360. There is a table. 0 Are you acquainted with an experiment by Dr He kept a monkey for three years and on the skin of the oWMsoiwMpetrol monkey 7AQ^Ast ^ or iead^was placed during the three years. Two cubic centimetres of ethyl petrol -- after that this particular monkey was killed and only a trace of lead was found in the monkey -- no more than was found in a control animal?-- That may be sc, it may be that the monkey in did not absorb it. On the other hand^a very large number of experiments in which the material was only absorbed by the skin itwas found in the foetus" recovered from the animal. That was confirmed by Flinn, He painted the skin of some Vgoats, *a*L thematerial absorbed but the pregnant animal aborted and the lead was found in the foetus?; showing that it can be absorbed by the skin. Jp 0018270 iS&2BK&' ' P.'iV.P Or Copland, q, in regard to the somewhat alarming statement that tha water supplies of Groat Britain might bo endangered if this material were allowed. Have yon made any calculation as \ to the amount that would be necessary to maize that possible? -----I do not aee the .remarks to which you refer, $ "The danger of pollution of underground water supplied y<4r, as might arise when oil from the engine sump of a car in which ethyl petxul has been used as motor fuel ia poured on the ground in proximity to a shallow well8?----- Yea, ^ There is also a specific statement in regard to underground water supplies particularly shallow walls, who re there may be circumstances where there would be danger, Q, Then you give ue a copy of a letter from Dr ?linn which reached you in March of this year, about lead poisoning in general, but not about ethyl patrol? ----- That is showing the effect of a vsy small doaa. Q I thinx you did a certain amount of worx for the Daily Mail? ----- Yea, ... ,, "MB $ A series of articles was published in the Daily Mail on your wo me? --- That is a0.4 That was on material furnished by the. Research Association of British Motor Manufacturers, and ; assisted by the Committee on Scientific and industrial Research, Q Do you consider as a scientific man that the amount of wori that you yourself have done on this subject justified the somewhat alarmist articles that you have published?----- I thii I say in this report that whatever I found was exactly what .... was found in America, There is no difference in the findings ka.v baan alr/lv 4ii1 C+>.n+;a T "* to the amount; that would be necessary to maxe that possible? --- I do not see the remarks to which you refer. $ *Xhe danger of pollution of underground water supplied as might arise when oil from tile engine aump of a oar in ; which ethyl petxul has been used as motor fuel ia poured i.- on the ground in proximity to a shallow well*?----- Yea, There is also a specific statement in regard to underground '5 water supplies particularly shallow walls, where there may : be circumstances where there would be danger* ;y q Then you give us a copy of a letter from Dr yiinn which reached you in March of this year, about lead poisoning in j vr general, but not about ethyl petrol?----- That is showing the effect of a very small does. y q I thinx you did a certain amount of worx for the Daily Mail?! ----- Yes. q A series of articles was published in the Daily Mail on your worx? --- That is so. That was on material furnished by the Research Association of British Motor Manufacturers, and assisted by the Committee on Scientific and Industrial Research. q Do you consider as a scientific man that the amount of worjf that you yourself have done._qn this subject justified the * somewhat alamiat articles that you hears published? ----- I thl I say in this report that whatever I found was exactly what was found in America. There is no difference in the findings from what have been already found in the United States. In .:tha I have associated myself with a very large number of people in America who consider that the universal use -- the unlimited use of ethyl petrol carries with it a number of dangers. q That does not quite answer my question, which was whether you Dr Ooplans consider that the amount of worx that you hswe done and yp ' '-V* the results that you obtained yourself justify the somewhat alamist articles. You yourself have done very little? * Well, I say that what I have done, as far as I have gone, is exactly in accord with the results that have been .`.'J 'y`;S produced by the Americans: as appears in tills green bo ox. Granting that what they say is true. ^ Q You agree that these articles emphasise what a very serious f| those bad results would follow?-----I thizuc 2 have 3aid H if ' ^ if a large number of cars use it. 2 mean it is almost the direct cause of a large number of cars U3ing this material. A few cars of course would amount to nothing at all* 2f a large number of cars were placed in a particular spot the danger would be increased. I do not thin* 2 could have said , it more emphatically. Do you thinic it was right to issue those articles after they^ (Jovernment had decided to set up a Committee to enquire whether the use of this material was dar^eruus or not? ----- A to that 2 wouldjliice to explain: on January 16th I was undertaXing; with:ytha Daily Mail to act in association'?^ with the Research Association in a certain number of matters?' and to provide a written opinion on the materials collected by them. Ihat was in January, long before any question came up or anything at all was proposed by the Government.'`"v* As a matter of fact at that, time the Government were opposed, I understand, to any Government enquiry. `5:7*7v2 V i ----- Well, I say that what I have done, as far as 1 have gon<*| ia exactly in acoord with the results that have been ' >* 4X !**s produced by the Americans: as appears in thia green booic*''711 Granting that what they say ia true. . .311 Q, You agree that those articles emphasise what a very serious)m thing lead poisoning ia, and rather by implication suggest f4s|; that if the use of ethyl petrol were allowed in thia country^ those bad results would follow? ---- I thiaus I have said H* if a large number of cars use it. Z mean it is almost the ' direct causa of a large number of oars using thia material.-' A few care, of course would amount to nothing at all. If a'??q large number of cars were placed in a particular spot the >' a-"* danger would be increased. I do not think I could have said 'A it more emphatically. J Q Bo you think it was right to issue those articles after the Government had decided to set up a Committee to enquire whether the use of thi1s. material was darvceruua or not? -----As to that I would like to explain: on January 16th I was undertaxing with the Daily Mail to act in association with the Research As h so elation in a certain number of matterbv's, and to provide a written opinion on the materials collected by them. Shat was in January, long before any question . ;* came up or anything, at all was proposed by. the Government. - ; As a matter of fact at^tliat time the Government were opposed, I understand, to any Government enquiry* q Oh, I do not doubt that'* At any rate you say that when your > 7 7 7- ' - * .: > - - ' ' .. contract with the Daily Mail was made there was no decision to have an enquiry? --- That is so. Cfc And before thosearticles weeissued it had been decide^ to KM have an enquiry? -- At the time the Governaent decided to'have !'V' 0018274 W .... i -- ?5. Dr Coplans, an enquiiy the wor* was practically all dons and it was beyond my power, I was under a legal obligation to hand the material over to the Daily Mall, $ You were not responsible for the publishing of the articles?: -----Not the slightest. q, I do not xnow%hat interest the Daily Mail has in it, but if they were really anxious to get quite to the bottom of HM|l this in a scientific way one would have thought that some of this American woric -- the Government report, for instance* which was in rather an opposite direction to your articles,'^ would have been mentioned ey them. But that ia not mentione'd 1 at all, ia it?----- Oh, the American Government Report. X do 1 * -.''I not quite accept that, The American Report appeared in 1926 ' and aaxed for an appropriation from Congress to continue the wor*. q But after a very exhaustive investigation the Government Committee did say that they were unable to find any definite cases of lead poisoning in which they found the fUs3J- had been used for from two to three years, and accordingly in " the view of that Government Committee in Araerioa there was no good ground for prohibiting the use of ethyl residue as a motor fuel. That was not stated in the Daily Mail .4^ articles. I mean our British public would fcerhapa have been more comfortable if they had been told that? --- 1 thimc that Report is more recent. X thin* the result of what was \n done was published in the Medical Officer, As a matter of...;. * V" fact X published the whole of that article in the Medical v \ Officer. X will give the Committee the dates when I actually , . 5 published in the Hedioal Journals vb.eJT^go,.;ti .'Daily Mail >-.'A . HE 0018275 You were not responsible for the publishing of the articles? -----Not the slightest, I do not icnow%hat interest the Daily Kail has in it, but -- if they were really anxious to get quite to the bottom of ' ;.r this in a scientific way one would have thought that some of this American wor* -- the Government report, for instance^ ; k% which was in rather an opposite direction to your article would have been mentioned by them. But that is not mentioned' .y j>t at all, is it?----- Oh, the American Government Report. I do not quite accept that. The American Report appeared in 1924| and asxed for an appropriation from Congress to continue the-? worjc. . .. .*;< Q But after a very exhaustive investigation the Government Committee did say that they were unable to find any definite cases of lead poisoning in which they found the fue^i-had been used for from two to three years, and accordingly in the view of that Government Committee in America there was no good ground for prohibiting the use of ethyl residue as a motor fuel, Yhat was not stated in the Daily Mail articles, I mean our British public would fcerhapa have been more comfortable if they had been told that?----- I thinK that Report is more recent, x thin* the result of what waav'* done was published in the Medical Officer, As a matter of fact I published the whole of that article in the Medical . ; -- - .................. Officer, I will give Ithe Committee the dates when I actually published in the Medioal Journals before the Daily Mail approached me, and X will give you a long verbatim report of the Sugeon General's report, with a general reservation in which he stated that the evidence was such that there ?/ waa a certain danger in garages and that it was necessary ^ ' to continue the investigation. HE 0018276 Br Coplan0. xl q Of course there Is danger In garages from carbon monoxide? -v- -- That is one danger; but that may he taken away by ordinary means, hut the danger with lead remains. The Surgeon-General did not decide the matter there and .' rr.-\|Vd4vt then: he asked to he allowed to continue the research, ^`5 and the united States Government have not given him the % appropriation that was asked for. * * * t'vtf vf. 5'5 V % q But there is a certain amount of work that is being done? V --- yes. ' vi i 3 q It is a question of what value is to he attached to Itt -- quite so; hut your opening remark was that I did not publish the Surgeon-General's report. I say that I did publish It in the jreaioai Journal., q I only say that In The Daily Mall articles, which reach a very large public, you did not refer to the investigations that had been made by the American Government. -- if i had done so, it would have been the same thing as had already been done before: in regard to the necessity for further Wf;~ observation. q quite. Are you acquainted with this report which came out on larch 30th 192Ss this report of the American Government? --- Mo, I have not seen that. I had pretty well completed i my report before that report was published, q I was only going to draw your attention to the fact that they had made elaborate examination of the atmosphere in very many crowded places - in pretty crowded American cities. The important thing I want to emphasise is this: that you did not do work so as to control your results, that is to say, 0018277 ; wuiMtt * WM UCJig,wA UU XVilU .X"Vlii AJlfr . '- ^4, The 3urgeon-0enerai did not. decide the Batter there and then: he ashed to he allowed to continue the research. and the United States Government have not given him the V>. 'An :.v| appropriation that was ashed for. r.iil But there Is a certain amount of work that le being done? --- Tee.' It is a question of what value is to he attached to it? | -- Quite so; but your opening remark was that i did not publish the 3urgeon-General*s report. I say that I did S publish it in the nedicai Journal. I only say that in The haily Kail articles, which reach a * very large public, you did not refer to the investigations -J that had been made by the American Government.----- If i had `-I V ' '!'V-'' done so, it would have ; been the saw thing as had already ] been done before: in regard to the necessity for further observation. Quite, Are you acquainted with this report which case out on March 30th 192a: this report of the American Government? -- uo, I have not seen that, I had pretty well completed my report before that report was published* I was only going to draw your attention to the fact that they ,v had made elaborate examination of the atmosphere in very many crowded places - In pretty crowded American cities. The important thing X want to emphasise is this: that you did not do work so as to'control your results, that is to say,3 you examined these two mechanics who were working m a garage where ethyl-gasoline was being used, and you did not examine',, corresponding men in garages where ethyl-petrol was not being:' : _* ^ used; so that you had no basis of comparison between those jk,$ two classes? -- That is perfectly correct; on the other hand, this was a private affair and undertaken by a newspaper. X2 Dr copians The amount of money tnat hae been spent on tills Is perhaps not one-thousandth of what has been spent hy the Interested parties In America, and it Is not possible for an Individual like myself* receiving money which is not enough to pay for\ the initial Charges of a laboratory. I am bound to say that; ,rr,A because you are asking for an impossible thing. Q 1 am not asking you to do anything? I only want to see whaty$ you did do. I am not in any sense saying what you ought to have done. -- This is the sort of work that 1 suggest ought] >.'/ v/ to be carried out by the Committee. Q You think you gave The Daily Mail very good value for the ^$8 money they paid you? ---- I think X can certainly say that, *' 5 3i r CHARLE3 MARTIN * Dr Coplans, X do not wish to intrude upon your private matters, but did you go to the United 3tates `f: on purpose to study this hazard of ethyl-petrol? -- No. Q, That was purely incidental? -- That was purely incidental*. ; w I was there on certain matters in connection with myself, and this matter was very much in;the air at the time, Q That is what X thought, would you turn to your introduction on page 1? There is a sentence there to begin with which I am quite incapable of comprehending, as to why you wrote it. You say; *The opportunitywas afforded me of appreciating some of the main factors which have obfuscated the issue as to whether the sale or use of leaded petrol should be permitted as a motor fuel." Could you tell the Committee \sf why you wrote that sentence? --- Yes, sir. In New York City,' where the sale is not permitted, the evidence is that there were very few people who had lead in their systems in a normal has totton said thftt nut.afi IlfcMirada ww-Tls*-- . . . -* * 0018279 parties in America, and it is not possible for an individual like myself, receiving money which is not enough to pay for* . the initial charges of a laboratory* I am hound to say that -v because you are asking for an impossible thing. q I am not asking you to do anything; I only want to see what you did do* X am not in any sense saying what you ought to *?& have done. -- This is the sort of work that I suggest ought I: ^: to be carried out by the Committee, i.V q You think you gave The Daily Mail very good value for the money they paid you?-- I think X can certainly say that* *1 sir CHARLES MARTI? Dr Coplans, I do not wish to intrude upon your private matters, but did you go to the United 3tates on purpose to study this hazard of ethyl-petrol? --- Ho* m'Mi `I| 0, That was purely incidental?-----That was purely incidental: * I was there on certain matters in connection with myself, and / this matter was very much in the air at the time. : Q That is what x thought, would you turn to your introduction on page 1? There is a;sentence there to begin with which I am quite incapable of comprehending, as to why you wrote it* You sayi The opportunitywas afforded me of appreciating some of the main factors which have obfuscated the issue as / to whether the sale or use of leaded petrol should be . permitted as a motor fuel.* Could you tell the committee ^i^u;_wrote that sentence? --- Yes, sir. xn New York City, where the sale is not permitted, the evidence is that there V were very few people who had lead in their systems in a normals way* ;-.1^ has been said that outside Hew York a very large 4 number .of people have lead in their systems; and that was the i point, as to how many people normally have lead in their systems* Xn Hew York it was said that not more than three - as to or four per cent ha a it, whereaq^people representing those who carry on work outeiae New York, it was said that in 13 hr Coplans certain cases 100 per cent of the people nave it in their ;- systems. Of course, with a background like that, it i $.-*/ impossible to say whether the wholesale distribution of f> petrol has brought on this universal distribution or lead /: or not* ....... ' ....... *vC- { q You think that obfuscated the issue as to whether leaded ptrol should be permitted as a motor fuel? -- That was the;^ ; . -*'-41 point. > q You think you could not decide the question then at all in those circumstances, or only in regard to Hew York? * ;.j ----- The Hew York people say that only 3 per cent of the ' ^ people have lead in their systems; and the Hew York people i say: * You have lead outside Hew York because you are using leaded petrol*. q You mean to say that you could not decide this point as to P'S* whether leaded petrol was a public danger or not unless you 'Ik did it:.in new York? --* X think so. q That is really your opinion? X think so, yes. m ym, > CHAIHHAK; Kight we ask you whether cars going into Hew York have got to empty out?-- X think it has been very fully stated by Mr Praneis Powell in The Times of April llth: ; A great T^ was made"of the fact that, the Hear York 'municipal authorities do not turn out the petrol caning do no: from the ears gating into Hew York. I do not know why they^/ ; turn out the petrol; it is nothing to do with me. q Ho, not;.X am only asking you whether it is the faot that KY they do not turn out the patrol from the cars?----- Ho, they \O' . " * do not. 00t828;f x have underlined here the passage from the letter x'9 Tn -the - Ci tv or Vi? 0018. impossible to say whether the wholesale distribution of petrol has brought on this universal distribution of lead or not* , Q You thinK that obfuscated the Issue as to whether leaded ptrol should be permitted as a motor fuel? -- That was the :v point* Q You thin* you could not decide the question then at all j in those circumstances, or only in regard to Hew York? v1. -- The Hew YorK people say that only 5 per cent of the ;l"|I people have lead in their systems; and the Hew York people ,Jpi ,!> say: "You have lead outside Hew YorK because you are using leaded petrol** q You mean to say that you could not decide tills point as to whether leaded petrol was a public danger or not unless you did it in new York? I thinK so. q That is ready your opinion? ~ I thinK. so, yes. CHAIRMAN; Kight we a sic you whether oars going into Hew YorK have got to empty out? ----- I thinK it has been very fully stated by Mr yrancis foweii in The Times of April llth: A great point was made of the fact that the Hew YorK municipal authorities do not turn out the petrol coning do not from the care goirng into Hew YorK. I do not Know why they./. .<i? turn out the patrol; it is nothing to do with me. q h o , no: I am only asKing you whether it is the fact that they do not turn out the patrol from the cars? --- Ho, they do not. I have underlined here the passage from the letter in The Times: *ln the City of New YorK its sale is forbidden, but not its use, and thousands of care using it daily pass through the Holland tunnel to and from Jersey City without conditions or hindrance. The reason for the Hew YorK city*4 prohibition is not wan founded and will undoubtedly be 15 &I9SB imi fir coplans removed.* that is the opinion of Mr pranols Powell, chains an of The Anglo-American Oil Company. I respectfully suggest that if Mr yranois Powell reads the report of hr Ylynn of The Columbia University, he will see that he has carried out certain experiments in regard to X ethyl petrol* and it will he an answer to his question. 3ir CHAHLE3 MARTIN: You are evidently of the opinion that the discharge into the atmosphere of exhaust gases from cars using ethyl petrol may he a serious public danger in 'W crowded areas. That is at the bottom of page 9 of your 'i memorandum. That is your view?----- I think so. V- -` [. yp-! '? 0, That is what you say; that is your belief. Is not ' it?-----That is so. Q supposing we were to take for illustration a block in Piccadilly, and supposing I had to remain there amongst the oars for an hour and they were all using ethyl petrol, do you think that I should run a serious risk of being poisoned with lead? ~ Bo you say in one hour? Q Yes, in one hour* -- I should say certainly not* I should not put it as one hour, but j think if your duty kept you there, on point duty, we will say, it would be a different matter* Piccadilly, of course, is getting very wide now - you might choose a narrow street* You have chosen one of the widest streets in Great Britain. Q X just chose Piccadilly because 1 encounter more blocks in Piccadilly than anywhere.-----z think you also get blocks in very small narrow streets outside Piccadilly. MB 0018283 l* Dr Go plana. q But do you thins that if I were there for an hour I should be in any danger of getting lead poisoning?-----I thin* the whole risx ia an industrial riaS, I thins it means being a long time under exposure, and it is particularly intensified in the caae of women and young children, I do liot thins your illustration helps you very much. q That ia rather a nasty thing to say?----- Well, I should not describe it aa a good illustration of it at all. You aased me to tass your caae, did not you? q Yea. Do you thins then that it ia a public danger to the polioe force. Ho body else remains for an hour in a blocs where there are theee cars continuoualy, although Of course the policemen do that? ---- Well, I do not Snow. There may be people selling tilings. There might be people remaining about for certain reasons. But tase the caae of ahdps close by: in a narrow street where there are blocss: lots of * shopseepera are there, and people on the pavement -- anybody, Why just one person? 2 suppose a policeman in particular - V on point duty would get a certain amount of it. q You thins they would not suffer, first of all, from carbon monoxide poisoning? ;'~-~^2; thins the actual discharge of 'they;. gas and tha disturbance of the air would be sufficient. The ^.ndency .rj of ethyl-prtrol is to settle more:.e m*. ':-fr than the carbon monoxide and it remains nearer the ground. ') q But as you Seep a certain diatanoe from the ground would not you be more lisely to get away frota it?-----I say in the case of small people who are nearer the ground you would get more of it, and they are the particular people Mipai.cyefer., to, AS .a., matter .of fact ye^^-Mittst',.get '.the' lead ; long time under exposure, and it ia particularly intensified in the case of women and young children* I do hot thins your illustration helpe you very much, ' 'sS Q, That is rather a nasty thing to say?----- Well, x should not describe it as a good illustration of it at all. You asked n to take your case, did not you? .7 Q, Yes, Do you think then that it ia a public danger to the police force. Ho body else remains for an hour in a blocic where there are theee cars continuously, although Of course ' ``s'I*'' the policemen do that? ----- Well, 2 do not know, There may * be people selling things. There might be people remaining \ about for certain reasons. But taka the case of shdpa close by: in a narrow street where there are blocks: lots of shopkeepers are there, and people on the pavement -- anybody. Why just one person? X suppose a policeman in particular on point duty would get a certain amount of it, q You think they would not suffer, first of all, from carbon monoxide poisoning? ---- X think the actual discharge of the gas and tha disturbance of the air would be sufficient. ThetAndency .;n of ejbhyl-prtrol is to settle more. than the carbon monoxide and it remains nearer the ground, q But as you Keep a certain distance from the ground would ' not you be more likely to get away from it? -- X say in the case of small people who are nearer the ground you would get more of it, and they are the particular people I refer to. As a matter of fact you will jpat get the lead at the breathing level, q And so you will in the case of the carbon monoxide? -- The carbon monoxide will be disturbed by the ordinary passage of the car. Might X suggest that in order to obtain a perfectly scientific four-square answer, the only way to do id. Dr Co plana this ia by beating it on a vary large aoale: carried out quite apart from private people -- by a Committee oi' this sort^vhoae province it ia, to start with. You are aaicing ras to settle questions wnich can only be settled in that way. ^ Then your opinion comes down to a mere guess?-----I do not thins so; 'out if you Zu3j '.-mat about the relationship between the rise and fall of lead ana caroon monoxide, if you want a scientific answer you must be prepared to go to the extent of getting a scientific answer, if you aax me aa an ordinary person 3ff a^r Yea, lead is a heavy stuff: it tends to descend, whereas carbon monoxide gas tends to rise. Q, You have absolutely not the haziest Idea how much lead there would be in such circumstances?----- We nnow how much carbon monoxide there v/ould be, from ProfessorHenderaon1 wont. 0, I am perfectly familiar with Profeesor;Henderson's worx? Therefore we might auraiaa the amount of lead that ia in circulation. q supposing I came to the conclusion that if I breathed for an hour -- given your maximum lead output of 90 milligrams per cubic metre--------?----- That is a light proportion. Q, 77aii, call it 100 milligrams, Taxe the maximum possible. Of course I would not be breathing pure exhaust gas. Supposing we diluted it in 100; you would agree that that is a very small dilution in the air: 1 in 100 ?-----In order to bring our figures down to the American figures I f calculated 1 in p#0Q0. % I am asxing you some questions and X should ie very glad 00162SG ..... .... . aufv^aoee pcovxnce xt is, bu awrs wx?a zou are asxing me to settle questions which can only be settled in that" way, q Then your opinion comes down to a mere guess?-----I do not 4 thins so: but if you ass me, what about the relationship between the rise and fall of lead and carbon monoxide, if you want a scientific answer you must be prepared to go to I the extent of getting a scientific answer. If you ash me as an ordinary person ST ssy Yes, lead ia a heavy stuff: it ^ tends to descend, whereas carbon monoxide gas tends to rise, q You have absolutely not the haziest idea how mush lead 1 there would be in such circumstances? --We hnow how ! much carbon monoxide there would, be, from Pro fasso`r Henderson* wo nc. q I am perfectly familiar with ProfessorJHendereon' worh? ----* Therefore we might surmise the amount of lead that is in circulation, q Supposing I came to the conclusion that if I breathed for an hour -- given your maximum lead output of 90 milligrams per cubic metre *--------- That ia a light proportion, q Well, call it 100 luilligrama, Tahe the maximum possible, of course I would not be breathing pure exhaust gas. Supposing we diluted it in 100; you would agree that that r is a very small dilution in the air: 1 in 100 ?-----In order to bring our figures down to the American figures I calculated 1 in 5,000, q 1 am ashing you some questions and 1 should to very glad if you would try and follow, 1 have given 100 milligrams of lead per cubic metre as a maximum: then X give 6 per oent of carbon monoxide --* which is a very moderate estimate that would give ua 60 metres of carbon monoxide. We must 00182iSi 16 Dr Co plana. 1 assume that you have diluted it -- it does not very much 3 matter, but you admit that dilution by 100 is a very diluted exhaust gas, That has never been found in a garage? ----- your parts in 10,000, q It is going to be a good deal more than four part3 in 10,000: it is going to be 6 parts in 10,000 -- . 6 per cent? ----- Yes, ,,r% Q, If I breathe that for an hour, if it has 100 milligrams of lead, X would breathe half a milligram of lead, but X should breathe 300 oc. of 0.0, You will admit that as substantial] correct?----- Yes, I will accept that, B'aaX is 300 cc. of Q ---------------------------------------:------ *-------------------- / C,0. would have saturated my blood and I would have to be ; taxaiaway in an ambulance?-----Quite so. You would not staj there that time, Q Ho, but I must stay therefor an hour to get the half milligram of lead? -- Quite 30* Q But would half a milligram of lead matter to me?-----Hot the slightest, Q Would 300 oc of C.O.? ----- That would poison you. Q Then may I not suggest that you have somewhat exaggerated possibly with the best intentions of protecting the public health the danger that of necessity arises in - y confined areas* X say exaggerated, that is all?-----Well, how far is It justifiable to exaggerate a risk to public health? Q I aum am asking you questions? -- That is the Whole praoti< of public health^to exaggerate the risk: to say *Do not do things because of the risk*. #|;,Thn,I may take it that you admitjjths^you have exaggerated -- Four parts in 10,000, || q It is going to be a good deal more than four parte in -.'7* 10,000: it is going to be 6 parte in 10,000 -- .6 per cent?; : ' <jj ----- Yes. .`| q If I breathe that for an hour, if it haa 100 milligrams off lead, X would breathe half a milligram of lead, but X should breathe $QQ oc. of 0,0, You will adrait that as substantial] correct? -- Yes, I will accept that , UmX is 300 cc. of q --------------------------------------------------- --------------- / C.O. would have saturated my blood and X would have to be taxsaaway in an ambulance? - quite so. You would not stag there that time, q Ho, but X auat stay therefor an hour to get the half milligram of lead? --- quite so. q But would half a milligram of lead matter to me?----- Hot the slightest. q Would 300 oc of 0.0,?----- That would poison you. q Then may I not suggest that you have somewhat exaggerated -- possibly with the best intentions of protecting the public health -- the danger that of necessity arises in confined areas. Jr say exaggerated, that is all? ----- Well, how far is it justifiable to exaggerate a ris* to public health? viy. ..... q I bu m. am asking you questions? -- That is the whole practic of public health;to exaggerate the riaic: to say *Do not do things because of the ria&11, q Then X may ta*e it that you admit that you have exaggerated the risic? -- X totally deny that, air. I may have over-estimated the result of what is commonly used, but at the same time it is justifiable to over-estimate risics - and exaggerate: that is part of the practice of public -> health now all over the world, tfe do not tell people the 14 Dr Co plana danger In scientific terms: we aay Hi not do this, or It will punish you for it doing it** With regard to the 6 parts in 10,000, do you mind speaking of 4 parts in lOfflOQ, and then reconsidering your figure in the light of 4 parts in 10,000, because to ny mind you have created a not hypothetical case, and I am/jprepared to answer a hypothetical case* Q Will you taxo 4 parts in 10,000 of carbon monoxide. Shat would be on the limit of carbon monoxide? -- J am not at all sure, air. You will have a witness following who will be prepared to spa ax to you with authority on the analyses of gases in garages, I understand that 4 parts in 10,000 is not at all unusual in a garage, do not V- q admit that? ---- Xhan would you mind, in place of the half milligram, reducing it to four-sixths: two-thirds of a half, that is a third of a milligram? s % "fas? --- So in place of your half milligram you admit that there is a third of a milligram of lead? Q fould a third of a milligram hurt you?----- Uo, not at all; but that is not the point: lead is a cumulative poison, and the constant breathing in af a third of a milligram per hour is undoubtedly, in the light of industrial experient a very wrong thing to permit, Q Supposing you were to taxe the conclusions of Dr Legge-- an expert on lead poisoning, you will admit ? ---- i asx that all these things should be interpreted in the light of hie^ experience. \ aV plumbism Q, Very well. 1 thinx he said that the limit for a miner, for/ ;^>in the light of lead tests, was KE 001'8'2SfF for eight 6 parti is?. 10,000, do you mind apeaxing ot 4 pares in 10^000, and then reconsidering your figure in the light of 4 parta in 10,000, because to ay mind you have oreated a not hypothetical case, and I am/pre pared to answer a hypothetical case* <1 vrill you taice 4 parta in 10,000 of carbon monoxide. Shat would be on the limit of carbon monoxide?----- I am not at all sure, air. You will have a witness following who will be prepared to apeax to you with authority on the analyses of gases in garages. I understand that 4 parts in 10,000 is not at all unusual in a garage.' do not Q 1j_admit that? ----- Then would you mind, in place of the half milligram, reducing it to four-sixths: two-thirds of t .1 a half, that is a third of a milligram? Yes? -- So in place of your half milligram you admit that there is a third of a milligram of lead? ?ould a third of a milligram hurt you?----- Ho, not at all; but that is not the point: lead is a cumulative poison, and the constant breathing in af a third of a milligram par hour is undoubtedly, in the light of industrial experienc a very wrong thing to pemit. Supposing you were to taxe the conclusions of Hr Iegge -- . . an expert on lead poisoning,' you will admit ? --- X asX that' all these things should be interpreted in the light of hie. experience, .............. .......... plumbism Very well. 2 thin* he said that the limit for a miner, for/ * sto in the light of lead tests, was two milligrams for eight hours a day? -- X thought he said 10 hours a day; still, it dues not matter. A total of twe milligrams a day. <1 Ye si* o&r One third of a milligram would last me six hours. This taxes me three hour a to get a milligram. la it reasonable to suppose that anybody is going to atop in a xl* traffic block for six hour* every day of their lire* -- X do not know* you were talking about a garage* q n o , I was talking about a traffic block; I have not said anything about garages. -- I thought you were talking about the ventilation of a garage, x said that an expert would tell you what the air was in a garage: four parts in ten thousand. 0, But i was referring to a remark of youre on page 10 of m ii your memorandum, and I asked you whether you did not think you had exaggerated it? -- May I be allowed to look? CHAIRMAN: *ln traffic blocks, with the racing of engines that occurs immediately following a period of Idling and storage of lead in the exhaust system - so. resulting in dense discharg< of richly leaded exhaust - the conditions of atmosphere may well become highly dangerous in the immediate neighbourhood where the settling heavy lead dust will go on accumulating.- That i on page ID. -- I see.------------------------ --------------------- -~~~ The reason that takes place is this: Following the idling of... an engine y{bu suddenly get a racing and get a discharge of richly leaded exhaust.,, sir 0HAk.E3 MARTIff: They would not be racing all the time; most or the time they would be idling in the block? -- Yes|> ; but you have that repeated. X imagined that that block is taking place for five minute} in fact it is going on all day long, and every five minute you are going to have & risk of a number of engines with a discharge of clouds richly . laden with lead: that is the condition that I have in my mind You have explained to the Chairman that you ware not able Kf 0018Q <9*9i 2 p h o , I was talkie air--a* & tramo bx w u *, * m,w .~- -.'-..' anytning about garages.' -- I thought you wore talking about the ventilation of & garage. I said that an expert would tell you what the air was in a garage: four parte in ten thousand. Qt But I was referring to a remark of yours on page ig of your memorandum, and I asked you whether you did not think i you had exaggerated it? -- May X be allowed to look? c h a ir ma n : *In traffic blocks, with the racing of engines that occurs immediately following a period of Idling and storage of lead in the exhaust system - so. resulting in dense discharge of richly leaded exhaust > the conditions of atmosphere may wen become highly dangerous in the immediate neighbourhood where the settling heavy lead dust will go on accumulating.* That is on page 10. -- I see.-------------- -- me reason that takes place is this: milowing the idling of an engine yibu suddenly get a racing and get a discharge of richly leaded exhaust.. Sir CHARLE3 JfARTINt They would not be racing all the time? most of the time they would be idling in the block? ----- Year but you have that repeated. I imagined that that block is taking place for five minutes; in fact it is going on all day long, and every five minutes you are going to have a risk Of a number of engines with a discharge of clouds richly laden with lead;, that "is the condition that I have in my mind. % You have explained to the Chairman that you ware not able '. other ' ' 1 to examin^meohanlos who had been engaged with pars that used ethyl petrol - in your experiments; and also that you had nothad 'hn opportunity, or it did not occur to you, to -y^ examine their excreta beforehand? ---- I had not the opportuai Anyhow, it was not done? --- i had not the opportunity. ,,>  -Sr'i Vll A* a scientific man do you feel justified in drawing any kf conclusion whatever trom the fact that cm# of those mecha|eilj Had got a trace of load in his fiecas at the end of that timet J -- I think it justified havIng such a man under observation* 1 I ashed you Whether you considered it justif iable to draw / any conclusions. --~ h o w should one draw a conclusion from onef ease, or two cases? ^ ( CHAIRMAN: Tour answer is Ho? -- That is so. - 3ir CHARLES MARTIN: Do you think it would be absurd to draw any * conclusions? ----- I think sc. C On the other hand, I gathered that you attached considerable Importance to that, from some accounts of youre that I saw in The Daily Mail. Was I mistaken, ana you do not attach any r Importance to that? ---- I attach no undue importance to it* ' I say I consider it justified* q I mean, talking to this Committee?-----No, I ara not talking to a Committee, I am talking to a public meeting* CHAIRMAN: You arc talking to a Committee.-----Yes, but this lS??Vi public evidence, therefore I am not entitled to say what happened, lhat x said was that it is as well that these men should be kept under medical observation: I say that was justifiable* There is a risk. 5; CHAIRMAN: let us get it quite clear. Although the public is here we are expecting you to answer to the best of your ability. ----- Yes, I hope twain* But what I mean is this: this examination rfi V p' ie rather hinging round the fact that i reported things in .. The Daily Mail. As a matter of fact I prefer to be examined on this memorandum which I have submitted to the committee* ..... |||^^^y^|tARTIKt' - I quite agree wtthivouS^iat^e' 'v-v:< 0018294 .naa got a trace or xeaa tp his at the and of that time? ,y, -- I think It justified hav tr, such a man under observation.;'!! q I asked you whether you considered it justifiable to draw any conclusions. --- How should one draw a conclusion from onel case, or two cases? `"1 ' !! CHAIRMAN: Your answer is No? -- That is so. fj Ir 3ir CHARLE3 MARTIN: so you think it would be absurd to draw any conclusions? -- I think so. Q On the other hand, I gathered that you attached considerable importance to that, from some accounts of yours that I saw -in % - 'V me Daily Mail. Was I mistaken, and you do not attach any importance to that? -- z attach no undue importance to it*' f I say I consider it justified. ".Nr :J i? Q I mean, talking to this Committee? -- No, I am not talking to.3 a Committee, I am talking to a public meeting. CHAIRMAN: You arc talking to a Committee.----- Tea, hut this is public evidence, therefore I am not entitled to say what happened, mat I said was that it is as well that these men should be kept under medical observation: I say that was justifiable. There is a risk. CHAIRMAN: Let us get it quite clear. Although the public is here, we are expecting you to answer to th^ best of your ability. ^ ----- Yes, X hope Zmaa* Bit what I mean is this: this examination is rather hinging round the fact that I reported things in The 23ii3i3r.'".it4lV.-..A*. of fact I prefer to be examined on this memorandum which X have submitted to the Committee, rl? Sir CHARLES MARTIN: I quite agree with you,"''That is why I mentioned the memorandum.----- I think when I communicated this memorandum t said that I should like to be cross-examined or to answer quest ions on the memorandum, not on what appeared do in The Daily Mail, ^although the Dally Mall articlee/not in any HE 0018295 20 .. sJlssfcifiSass *. > v x3. snape or form vary from this memorandum. q As to the experiments that you did yourself - putting v; ^ 5 no, was It, of ethyl patrol on your arm - what particular >1 method did you use for estimating lead under those circumstances? --- I have tabled a list of methods used. > J q But i have not seen them. -- After all, I am asked to present _ < 26 copies of these, and it is at my own expense; five or six- copies are quite sufficient. l q Bid you use the spectroscope method? -- No, this is a direct , determination. q you are responsible for that? -- yes, x am responsible , for that. q You have said how you did it? -- Yes. $ That we shall see. >2 could not make out from your answers to the Chairman whether you were aware of the Enquiry into the possible hazard of this material that was undertaken by the * United States Public Health service between June 1925 and January 1926. This is it? (Indicating publication). ,.;wc, you know this? -- In that particular form r do not know it. t know the publication of the Report of Engineering and to that I refer in the articles that i have already published in The Medical Officer and The British Medical Journal. I was aware of that, but the date you refer to, June 1925 to January 1926 is not m accord with the period that x know: the period of investigation that 1 know is from ft sy May down to six or seven months fallowing. j) Q There was only one Enquiry by the United states public Health Service, and they made, their report in January 1926. . * ........... ,.Tbat.has, specifio reference workers, 0018296 method did you use for estimating lead under those circumstances? ----- I have tabled a list of methods used# * 4 But 1 have not seen them.----- After all, X an asked to present 26 copies of these, and it is at my own expense: five or 0is$| copies are quite sufficient. :f - - - . 'I V Q Did you use the spectroscope method? -- Ho, this is a direct determination. 4 Tou are responsible for that?----- yes, I am responsible for that. q You have said how you did it? ---- Yes. j 4 That we shall see* yl could not max out from your answers to.; K the Chairman whether you were aware of the Enquiry into the possible hazard of this material that was undertaken by the United states Public Health service between June 1925 and January 1926. This Is it? (Indicating publication). You know this? -- In that particular form 1 do^ not know it. I know the publication of the Report of fech-mt55a Engineering and to that X refer in the articles that I have already published in The Medioal Officer and The British Medical Journal. I was aware of that, but the date you refer to, June 1925 to January 1926 is not in accord with the period that I know; the period of investigation that 1 know is froa : May down to six or seven months fallowing. 4 ihere was only one Enquiry by the United states public Health Service, and they wade, their report in January 1926. -- That has specific reference to the lead in garage workers,' I take it: ethyl-petrol users. 4 You have not seen it?--It may be referring to the same thin* because we are told that there are other reports. Here is an alleged Government report, (indicating green book). That was published in 1927. Then here is another report. 31 0018297 Q But surely it is sufficient to identify it lay the United States public Health service. The other hooh you refer to is The Bureau of Mines.----- That is the surgeon-deneral's report that I Know. $ You were aware of this publication?----- I aa aware of it# May I look at it? Q Certainly. (Handing bo o m).----- I have not seen it in this cover; I have seen it reported in The Journal of Chemical Industry. Cfc This was referred to in the Proceedings of The American Medical Association on more than one occasion, and was under taken at public request. -- I have not seen tnis full report) I have seen a copy of its findings published in The Journal of Chemical Industry, and with general reservations, but I have not seen this. (Indicating). $ As it is the most authoritative account by entirely unbiasse< people, and an account of work dons by some of the most capable scientific people in the service of the united states Government, it is unfortunate that you did not read the whole report before expressing yourself on the hazards of ethyl petrol amtml; do not you think so?----- I do not think so, s: Q You do not think it matters? -- I do not think It matters, r s considerably. What I said was that the results found here were exactly the same as the American, and should be interpret* y ea in the light of our peculiarly English experience of ys\vj* Industrial leads. I specifically say in this report that , * .-v`- there is no difference between the findings I have obtained and those that have been obtained in America. There JLj. no ^difference, j want to emphasise thatipnit^lvdo think there is q You were aware or tuts publication? -- I aa aware of It* . May I loon at it? q Certainly. {Handing boon). -- I have not seen tt in thia J cover; I have seen it reported in The Journal or Chemical Industry. '"'S ' (fc This was referred to in tne Proceedings! of The American Medical Association on more than one occasion, and was under-j taken at public request. -- I have not seen this full report* I have seen a copy of its findings published in The journal J of Chemical industry, and with general reservations, but ) I have not seen this, (indicating), q as it is the most authoritative account by entirely unbiasse< people, and an account of work done by some of the most capable scientific people in the service of the united 3tates Government, it is unfortunate that you did not read the Whole report before expressing yourself on the hazards of ethyl V petrol aontml; do not you think so? -- I do not think so, sJ Q You do not think it matters? --~ I do not think it matters considerably* Vhatjt said was that the results found here were exactly the same as the American, and should be interpret ed in the light of our peculiarly English experience of - industrial leads* I specifically say in this report that there is no difference between the findings I have obtained , and those that have been obtained in America. There is no difference, I want to emphasise that; but I do think there is 4 a difference in our industrial conditions: in the clrcumstanos of our housing and population and our roads: we have no Lincoln Highway here. Dc Copland $ How long have they been using ethyl petrol in America,do you ifnow? --- I thin* Dr 3dgar is here and will probably tell you better than I can. q Do you *now? ---- x thin* since 1925* Of course it has been held up pending the investigation, q It was held u p which this investigation (referring to boo*) was going on? --~ Yes; and 2 thin* as far as New Yor* is ^ concerned it is not sold at all. q Still there has been three years continual use?----- it depends on the conditions. If you as* me how many firms ^ have been using this continuously from the beginning the answer would be found in something Dr ICehoe sent me. That is, that you only find one large industrial organisation actually in Dayton which is using it continuously, q $0r live years? ---- There has bean an intermission of a year. a*ive jears, from 1925 to 1928 barring intermissions. ; q It has been used on an enormous aoale has not It? Accord in to the letter I have got from Dr ICehoe he can only state one industrial organisation that has used it for five yearV or rather during a period of five years when it was peroitt* to be used - CHAIRMAN! I thin* that particular firm in Daytorwtoo** to using it during the period when moat people had given It upl --- That I do not *now, q That is a question for the Committee?-----I do not *now at i Sir CHARIDS S MARTIN: But do you thin* there are 100 or 1,000 o 100,000 garage employees who are constantly exposed to the a ris* of ethyl petrol in America now?----- Yes, I suppose q Do you Know? ----* I tiling since 1923* Of course it has fteen held up pending the investigation, q It was held up which this investigation (referring to booK) was going on? ---- Yes; and I thin* as far ae Hew Yorx la concerned it is not sold at all, q Still there has been three years continual use? --- it depends on the conditions. If you aaK me how many firas have been using this continuously from the beginning the answer would be found in something Dr Kehoe sent me, That > is, that you only find one laaqge industrial organisation aotuaily in Dayton which is using it continuously, q Vo r five years? --- There has been an intermission of a year, live jeara, from 1923 to 1928 barring into missions, q It has been used on an enormous scale has not it? --- Accord* in to the letter I have got from Dr Kehoe he can only state one industrial organisation that has used'it for five years or rather during a period of five years when it waa peraittei to be used, 0HAIRMA IT: I thin* that particular firm in DaytorwtooK to using it during the period when moat people had given it up? ----- That I do not Know, q That is a question for the ..Committee?-----I do not Know at Sir CHARLISS MARTIN: But do you thinK there are 100 or 1,000 or 100,000 garage employees who are constantly exposed to the riaK of ethyl petrol in America now? --- Yea, I suppose that would be so, q On a very large scale? ----- Yes. On the other hand i Know of garages where they will not have it, q Do you Know of any single substantiated case of lead polsoni* in America, apart from the persons employed in the mixing and manufacture of tetra-ethyl lead itself? ----- Have you seen this publication? (Producing yellow booK ). 2-3 Bs Q So* I have not? ---- Thia was published on March 20th thia year. This is published by the American Labour Office* Dr BRIDGES; That ia a publication by Alice Hamilton?----- Yea, I have aarxed thia paragraph in red (indicating). CHAIRMAS: Does that answer Sir Charles Martin* a question? Sir CHARLES MARTIH; I asiced, did you now of any substantiated case of lead poisoning in America? -- May I refer to t&e evidence that J ifaave furnished. I may be allowed to do that CHAIRiSAH: Please do not talx lixe that?-----tfell, you would nti allow me to looX at my fcooxs just now, q Because you would not answer the question?-----I want to refer to a paper now. Sir CHARLES MARTI Hz You have put this in as the beat you can d in answer to my question; the passage you have underlined in red? ---- That is one part, q This is the passage from Alice Hamilbon*a publication? ----- Yes, That. pa^er has been duly examined and passed by a Committee. I had another paper, an abstract from the American-Medical Association, published in February of last < year, in whiah they cited the circumstances that the Standat Oil Company had agreed to pay out of court* as damages last year (Pebruaxy 1927 ) 350000 dollars damages, for people who had been injured in connection with ethyl gas -- as - the expression is; ethyl gas. I do not-xnow what they mean by it, but I understood when I was in America last year that gasolene -- gas -- is employed colloquially to desoribe what we call petrol in thia oountry -- spirit. ' q Are you quoting something?,'--- I am quoting the American Medical Association published in the Times. ^j;Za^JtJmt,s' an.....editorial? ia.-'a^^^i;Sitem;of- news: I have marked this paragraph in rad (indicating), X CHAIRMAN: Does that answer Sir Charles Martin's question? Sir CHARLES MARTIN; I asjted, did you icnow of any substantiated V case of lead poisoning in America? --- May I refer to tKe \ i evidence that J-ixave furnished. I may toe allowed to do that f CHAIRMAN: Please do not talx line that?----- Well, you would no allow me to looX at my boons just now, Q Because you would not answer the question? --- I want to - refer to a paper now. Sir CHARLES MARTIN: You hare put this in as the toest you oand in answer to my question: the passage you have underlined ^ in red?----- That is one part. - Q This is the passage from Alice Ha-nil ton's publication? --- Yes, That paper has toeen ch ly examined and passed by a Committee, I had another paper, an abstract from the American Medical Association, published in February of last year, in which they cited the circumstances that the Standar Oil Company haul agreed to pay out of court aa damages last year (February 1927 ) 350,000 dollars damages, for people who had been injured in connection with ethyl gas -- as the expression is: ethyl gas, I do not *now what they mean by it, but l understood when I was in America last year , : < that gasolene -- gas -- is employed colloquially to describe what we call petrol in this country -- spirit, % . Are you quoting something? ---- i am quoting the American ; Medical Association published in the Times, -- t. q la that an editorial? it is a small item of news: 5!?00G0 dollars ware paid as damages out of Court, I had the paper this morning in ray hand. Not only that but there are other oases settled out of Court, in which there were'5a : million dollars damages claimed -- suits which have been settled out of Court* iiiilSIi Kk 0018393 Br Co plana Q Was this for accidents that have happened in the manufacture' --- I only quoted them in connection with ethyl gas. I thought at first that they must he referring to those , old Byftwaya Acts, But apparently it was not so: the word gaa was specifically used: otherwise I would not have taicen notice of it, because it would probably be a manufacturing disaster. Sir CHARLES MARIIUi But you are here to give us all the information you can?-----Yes. PROF. BIXQH: I read that also, and I thinh that those damages were pi. id for aocidents in the manufacture of the ethyl petrol?-----It was not the manufacture of petrol. PROS'. BlXOSf: Of lead ethyl. CHAIRiaAif; That is the essential difference. . IKS WIIHSSS: May I read the paper now. It is the Journal of the American Medical Association, Saturday, February 25th 1927: "Medical Hews: How Jersey: Tetra-ethyl gas: 550,000 dollars damages. The Standard Oil Company of Hew,..,. Jersey agreed on January 25th to award fcut of Court damages to the amount of J>5QtQQQ dollars to six victims of poisoning from tetra-ethyl gas who had brought suits for damages-, eti "an d there are said to be other suits" (etc, reading furthi to the words) nearly,one million dollars. The Grand Jury investigation did not find ground for criminal prosecution'1. That is the document I was trying tA find. Sir CHARLES MARTIH: Bo not you thinic that that refers to manufacture?----- And may I quote what appears here in the other Journal, and I thin* it is rather important (referrin ^^6^S#ellow.idocuttant)., , old Byftwaga Acts. But apparently it was not ao: the word gaa was specifically used: otherwise I would not have tahen notice of it, because it would probably be a manufacturing disaster. Sir CHARLES MARTIIf: But you are here to give ua all the information you can?----- Yes, * PRO]?. BiXON: I read that also, and I thin* that those damages 1 were pi id for aocidents in the manufacture of the ethyl petrol?-----It was not the manufacture of petrol, PROP. BIXQN: Of lead ethyl. CHAIRMAN: That is the essential difference. v: IKS WlTMBSS: May I read the paper now. It is the Journal of ' the American Medical Association, Saturday, February 25th 1927: "Medical Hews: How Jersey: Xetra-ethyl gas: 550,000 dollars damages. The Standard 041 Company of New Jersey agreed on January 25^ to award ^ut of Court damages to the amount of }^0,0Q0 dollars to six victims of poisoning from tetra-ethyl gaa who had brought suits for damages-, etc "an d there are said to be other suits* (etc, reading furthc to the words) ,one million dollars. The Grand Jury investigation did not find ground for criminal prosecution". That is the,: document I was trying t4 find." Sir CHARLES MARTIN: `. Bo not you thin* that that refers to : manufacture? ---- And may I quote what appears here in the ; . other Journal,' and I thinx it is ratlaer important (referring to yellow document). CHAIRMAN: Before we leave that, as far as I oan .see it was l due to the lead ethyl itself?----- It says "gas", otherwise ' I would not have ta*en any notioo of it: I would not have ; ''` ' ' brought it hare. ' ` #.,4 36 Dr Oo plana Sir 0HARL3S MARS IH: But it a pea*a about 30 other Lm& and refers to a Refinery in Uew Jersey?-----Yea. q Being at the refinery it crust be the manufacture of tetra ethyl? ----- I am not at all sure that I ought to say where this other action occurred, out they are referring to several things, and they specifically say that there are suits lodge for damages owing to tetra-ethyl gas, q But you do not Know whether that means tetra-ethyl petrol? -- Whether that occurred in the ethylising I do not Know, , q The Committee can ascertain that? -- But I would liKe to read this, if you do not mind. q Please do so? * fit is impossible to say just how many cases of acute poisoning occurred between the Autumn of 1925 and the early Bpring of 1925, because a good deal of secrecy was maintained. The cases, including the mild ones, are supposed to have reached over loo*. m q Again I asK, is there any evidence that those arose owing to tetra-ethyl petrol? --- X do not Know, q X rather thiK that it refers to the manufacture? -- At ' any rate the only point of that is the secrecy, q You do not Know what it refers to? ----X cannot do more than quote this, but I was strucx personally by the fact that secrecy was maintained: and that comes from the people who are investigating it on the spot. Dr 3RIDGJS: Xt was about 1925 when the aoeident occurred? -- There were a number of accidents, q That was when they were giving up the manufacture? -- . I thought the thing was in common use in 1925, Xt the common use in 1925.ithbn the aooidents ethyl? --~ I am not at all sure that I ought to say where this other action occurred, out they are referring to several things, and they specifically say that there are suits lodged- for damages owing to tetra-ethyl gas, _l q But you do not Know whether that means tetra-ethyl petrol? . 'f V-' -----Whether that occurred in the ethyl!sing I do not Know, q The Committee can ascertain that? - But I would liKe to > read this, if you do not raind. q flease do so? ---- "fit is impossible to say just how many cases of acute poisoning occurred between the Autumn of '* ^ 1923 and the early Spring of 1923* because a good deal of r'; 'r , /;' secreoy was maintained. The cases, including the miild ones, are supposed to have reached over 100", ' q Again I asK, is there any evidence that those arose owing to totra-ethyl petrol? --- I do not Know, q I rather thing that it refers to the manufacture? At any rate the only point of that lathe secrecy, t q You do not Know what it refers to?----- 2 cannot do wore than quote this, but I was struct personally by the fact that secrecy was maintained; and that comes from the people who are investigating it on the spot. Dr 33HIDGJ5; It was about 1923 when the accident oo curred? * There were a number of accidents* q That was when they ware giving up the manufacture? --~* thought the thing' was in common use in 1923, If the material was in common use in 1923* then the aooidenta have occurred since the material has come into common use -- two years afterwards. SIR CHARL32S MARTIN; ThanK you, I have no more questions to asK. K 00183D7. _ 5J6 I XX: 2>r coplano Mr Ptfc: I should like to refer to your experiments on crank case oil because t think they are or some considerable Interest* On page 7 of your introduction you say this: *in examining the used crank case oil and sludge taken from the engine sump of a car, and also the chain and sprocket washings of a motor \. bicycle using ethyl petrol as motor fuel, I determined the . presence of volatile lead, as indeed might be expected.* y[ Then on page 10 of your third memorandum in the table a / referring to crank case oil, there is a section which refers to the Report oltMechanics A* & B. There is stable which glv the total lead present in the crank cate oil and lead volatile That is estimated as lead tetra-ethyl. The total lead present is *07 per cent, and the volatile load is .07. I think if It can be proved that there is lead present as lead tetra-ethyl In the crank case oil in increasing concentration, that is a very important point; but I should like to know whether you are quite certain that the lead which you found and Which you state was volatile lead is in the form of lead tetra-ethyl*,.^ 3 I see the point, sir* first of all, it is volatile* Tou will see from the addenda I put in as to the methods employed. q I have not seen that; but perhaps you can tell us how that lead was measured? --- Would-you care to see this? 0, But could you tell us shortly how the leal present was measured and how you Identify it as being present in the volatile fonn? --- You will see if you refer to it. used oils -- q Oouid you not just tell us shortly? I understand you did jftxperimant .yourselfand took i'.nf* Anna oil irAMT used crank case oil and sludge taken fro the engine sump of s car, and also the chain and sprocket washings of a motor .V1 bicycle using ethyl petrel as motor fuel, l determined the. presence of volatile lead, as indeed might be expected** then on page 10 of your third memorandum in the table^ . ,.v 'i < M referring to crank case oil, there i# a section which refers ' to the neport oil Mechanics A* & B. There i. stable which gives the total lead present in the crank case oil and lead volatile*^ " tjM mat is estimated as lead tetra-etnyl. me total lead presents is *07 per cent, and the volatile load is .07 I think If lt|| - ' . yw;"t? can be proved that mere is lead present as lead tetra-ethyl & in the crank case oil in increasing concentration, that is a ''f very important point ; but r should like to know whether you are quite certain that the lead which you found and Which you state was volatile lead is in the form of lead tetra-ethyl, -- I see the point, sir* nrst of all, it is volatile* -yv ' you will see from the addenda I put in as to the methods employed. q I have not seen that? but perhaps you cask tell us how that lead was measured If ---- Would you care to see this? q But could you tell us shortly now the lend present was measured and how you identify it as being present in the volatile fora? ---- You will see if you refer to it. used oils q could you not just tell us shortly? x understand you did this experiment yourself and took a sample of crank case oil and analysed it and determined the amounts. -- The temperature of yolatilisation was 2*0 to 230 centigradej . you read this. I would rather ; jr * -V 0018 309 27, Av*', Dr coplans $ X should llXe the committee to understand how this load petrol was estimated?-----It was estimated in this way: tho total lead estimated and the estimation or non-volatile lead, Qt quite so. -- And the method dr dlff ersn&e- the results are different, if the non-volatile leadis less, the difference is the volatile portion. As to whether it is lead ethyl or /t seme derivative of lead tetra-ethyit* that is to say lead n V-: tri-ethyl and carbonate, or something; I do not know. Mr CHAPMAN: Do you mean volatile at 220 temperature? --- At ins' temperature, yea: at the temperature of 220 to 230 u4saw It was volatile in the material we were using. fnere was not sufficient to determine whether it was lead tetra-ethyl or Petra leadjtrto-ethyl, because in other experiments the lead petrol r Is not so volatile, or does not volatilise so rapidly, Mr FIB; You are quite certain that the lead present was in the form of lead ethyl?'-----Yes; it is volatile lead at that temperature. . q Did you test any samples of used cranx case oil which had' been taKan from an engine which had not been using ethyl ->1 petrol - byway of ^--Ho, 0, You did not taXe'any control?-----Ho. v;;h:' q , Would you agree that it is llXely,or possible, let us say, m that all used cranx case oil would contain traces of lead? -- I should thinK so, q You agree that that is so?----- Yes, yor instance, the ,. Kerosene oils that are used contain sa traces of lead -- ordinary Xerosene oil. the effect of increasing the-.danger; through the use c K 0018310 ^ total 2.0ad estimated ana the estimation or non-volatile load* !.- .'V V q. o,uit so. --- Ana the method of; difference- the results are "',w. different. If the non-volatile lead is leas, the difference is the volatile portion, a s to whether it is lead ethyl or 1'* $ some derivative of lead tetra-ethyli* that is to say lead .~>u` tri-ethyl and carbonate, or something; x do not Know. i}-Vj1'; Mr CHAPMAN; DO you mean volatile at 220 temperature? -- Atthat| temperature, yes: at the temperature of 220 to 230 utsaw it tj was volatile in the material we were using* There was not sufficient to determine whether it was lead tetra-ethyl or * t.etra lead./trfc-etnyl, because in other experiments the lead petrol`% is not so volatile, or does not volatilise so rapidly* ^ Mr FXB; You are quite certain that the lead present was in theji form of lead ethyl? -- Yes; it is volatile lead at that '$ temperature* p Did you test any sarnies of used cranx case oil which had been taxen from an engine which had not been using ethyl petrol - by way of control?' -- Ho. p You did not take any control? -- No. p Would you agree that it is liXeiy,or possible, let ue say, that all used cranX case oil would contain traces of lead? -- I should thinK so. p You agree that that is so? -- Yea* Yor instance, the Xerosene oils that are used contain ss& traces of lead -- >:fp.x&ina.rf_ Xerosene oil#^- q 30 that the effect of increasing the danger through the use 0; ethyl petrol does rather depend on being quite certain that the lead which you find as present in the used cranX case oil was present in a form which could be absorbed through the eKin? -------- 1 do not thlnX so* if you say: Am I sure that it was ,tetna.tr1-ethyl and not the other, I would not say that, -ujcx V \ - -'s' n. 29 Dr Coplane / f because X Dare no right to assume that it changes to tetra-ethyl. .... ' ;i.%'A q Have you ever tried the effect of the decomposition of lead? --Tee. x have had a Pottle containing about 10 cc. of lead petrol, and about g per cent becomes 'M tri-ethyl carbonate, when exposed to the air* There are a considerable number of experiments that I have not recorded in the memorandum submitted - quite a large number; particularly on food,; but X did not thinh it was right to publish these* in regard to the particular experiment you have just aslced ms about, there is one here. The material was put in an open glass bottle and the residue amounted to about eight per cent of a white powder* I Imagine / that that is a material which is tri-ethyl carbonate, and obviously it was not volatile, because if it had been volatile, it would not have been there. Then x , ;> have a sample which I have had for three years in a corded fe , >i bottle* tfhat is left behind is a yellowish white powder, `showing that ledd,tetrar-ethyl can get away quite easily if you give it time, and you get left behind a white powder which, according to worx that was done in 1676, is just as dangerous as lead tetra-ethyl. q me point X want to bring out is this: that you did not actually isolate from the cranK case oil the lead in ":T- the form of lead tetra-ethyl? --- Ho* q Hor as lead tri-ethyl?-- Ho --by the method of differences* K-J?" oo i 6312 ______________ _-- *ekj-a-wiyx 3 Have you ever tried the effect of ttie decomposition of lead? ---.Yes. I Have had a Pottle containing about A -V3 ,o 10 cc. of lead petrol, and about g per cent becomes trl-etnyl carbonate, when exposed to the air. There are a considerable number of experiments that X have not recorded in the memorandum submitted - quite a large number; particularly on food; but X did not think it was right to publish these# In regard to the particular experiment you have just asked me about, there is one here# The material was put in an open glass bottle and the residue amounted to about eight per cent or a white powder# I imagine j ' '% that that is a material which is tri-ethyl carbonate, : .i ' and obviously it was not volatile, because if it had f- been volatile, it would not have been there. Then X have a sample which I have had for three years in a corked bottle# What is left behind is a yellowish white powder, showing that ledd tetra-ethyl can get away quite eaai ly if you give it time, and you get left behind a white powder which, according to work that was done in 1S76, is just as dangerous as lead tetra-ethyl. - __. . 'tK /. 3 q The point I want to bring out is this: that you did not actually isolate from the crank case oil the lead in the form of lead. tetra-ethyltHo# q Nor as lead tri-ethyl? --- Ho --by the method of differences^ PROCESSOR DIXON: Ttfou do not suggest that these two mechanics whom you examined showed any signs of lead poisoning? -- Hot the slightest# q All these findings were really only physiological? -- it was merely a record of a medical examination, nothing* more* 313 Dr coplans cl q Do you Know ttt# amount of lead that a doctor might proscribe!----- Well, I have been puzzled for some months v to find out* q What is the official amount?----- 1 have heard that in dysentery they would give 100 milligrams so many times .1'- v . V*,-' a day* I thin*, according to the green boo*, 800 milligrams ;Cy can be given eight times a day and nothing happens; but if you distribute that over three or four months, two or three times a day, you would no longer have a patient. 0 You thin* it is a question of absorption? -- it is a question of slowness* q , if you too* a quic* test, you might not get much absorption? --* quite* q Would you agree that there is given in the British Pharmacopeia as a dose of lead acetate about 300 milligrams ? -- well, sir, you Know. q Something of that *ind is given* -- you will agree that :; ' it is impossible to say what is a dose in these oases* q X suggestedItfcOriti*C Sharaaeopeia because they generally give the minimum dose,so to epaaK, which cannot J.: under any conditions produce evil effects* -- Wen, the toxicologists say it is almost impossible to say what the ; limit is at which lead can be given in a single dose, is not that so? Sir mt WI1LOOX; That is quite right* . y -C!; v PR0P3330R DUOS; There are other sources of lead''poisoning ' to find out. q What is the official amount? --- I have heard that In dysentery thay would give 100 milligrams to many times a day, I think, according to the green book, 300 milligrams}. can he given eight times a day and nothing happens; hut if you distribute that over three or four months, two or three times a day, you would no longer have a patient. q you think it is a question of absorption? --- it is a question of slowness* q If you took a quick test, you might not get much absorption? --* quite* q would you agree that there is given in the British Pharmacopeia as a dose of lead acetate about 300 milligrams ? --- well, sir, you know* q something of that kind is given, -- you will agree that it is impossible to say what is a dose in these oases, q X suggested the British Pharmacopeia because they generally give the minimum dose,so to speak, which cannot under any conditions produce evil effects, --Weil, the toxicologists say it is almost impossible to say what the limit is at which lead can be given in a single dose, ts not that so? Sir wii WXILOOX; That is, quite right. TR0WS830R 'laxewr^^'^eri^are other sources of lehdr poisoning l besides ethyl lead?--- Oh yes* q Xs your point rather - if I can get it - that it is the accumulated effect of poisoning from all sources which is detrimental? --- That is so. 3>r Copland q Supposing that paint wore made with zinc, ana they used only aim* and so on, go tnat all these lead hazards were diminished down to the ethyl petrol, then th danger of using ethyl petrol must he completely negligible? X ---- i would not admit that - not quite like that* q That Is most extraordinary. What Is the principal difference between carbonic oxide poisoning and lead ;xS &'? - X Xfl8| -;-y poisoning? --- I understand the haematoiogiets gay this q I did not mean the symptoms; but supposing you are poisoned with one or other, what ie the principal difference? ----- Carbonaaenoxide poisoning is acute, and leadpoisoning is a slow insidious thing and might come on five years later* q quite. --- They are not of the same order,or thought even, q ho you think if you took a milligram of lead every day you might get poisoned in five years, according to someone who Is quoted as an authority?/One milligrso^aday is certain to , produce poisoning in a month, not lr* five years? --/ Ah yas, % - II. ** nn t but it is merely on somebody, elsa authority. ----- I quite agree* q You have made no experiments on that? --- Hone at all* I ask that the experiments should be taken on Industrial knowledge. q me American report of January 1926 says that the drivers of cars using ethyl petrol showed no signs of poisoning - none of them showed any signs of poisoning after two years. -----I should think the driver of a car is the least likely KZ to be injured* ftv quite soi Iraseept that, 0016'.?! 6 x have three points X want to put - - * ** wvre diminished down to the ethyl petrol, then the danger of ufting ethyl petrol must he completely negligible? TM 1 would not admit that - not quite like that* q That is most extraordinary. What is the principal difference between carbonic oxide poisoning and lead :i '. i poisoning?----- I understand the haenatelogiete say this-------- - q I did not mean the symptoms: but supposing you are poisoned I with one or othor, what is the principal difference? ----- Garbonaaaioxide poisoning is acute, and leadpoisoning ;C?-5 is a slow insidious thing and might come on five years later* *S*P.S& q quite. ---- They are not of the same order, or thought even* ;* q Do you think if you took a milligram or lead every day you \4 "V might get poisoned in five years, according to someone who la quoted as an authority?^ One milligra^aday is certain to vi produce poisoning In a month, not in five years? --/'"Ah'.yesV- * --------------~---------- ------------ ----------------------------------------------------------------- / but it is merely on somebody else'a authority* ; 'X ----- I quite agree. q You have made no experiments on that?-----Hone at all. I ask that the experiments should be taken on Industrial knowledge. . q The American report of January 1925 says that the drivers of oars using ethyl petrol showed no signs of poisoning - none of them showed ary signs or poisoning after two years. ---- I should think the driver of a oar is the least likely to be injured. q quite eoj Keeeept that* 1 have three points I want to put to you, and the second point is this: The employees in garages handling and repairing automobiles may show evidence of leaded absorption in the stools. That you would agree to? Yes. 32 Dr coplans J. 4 I I q The men from your garage showed it? -- Yes. q But did It not occur almost equally In all garages, whether they used ethyl or not, where the same conditions obtained? slighter amounts? bo not they say: in q Yes, they do; but the analyses show a negligible difference in the case of ethyl. -- They show slightly more in the case of ethyl garages, q Then the third point is this: in the regions in which the ethyl petrol was used to a great extent 'r.*i as motor fuel, for between two and three years^,there has never been a eaee of recognised lead poisoning? -- Of course there is a reservation there: they might refuse to recognise it. q Yes, but accepting that those people are reasonably honest?-----Well, sir, X do not mow.- The reason I say that is this: I understand from Dr Thomas Oliver - who is also reasonably honest - that the only way of finding out that people are being poisoned by lead is in regard to the women: there is an unusual number \ of cases of miscarriage - of absolute abortion: although none of the men showed it, Dr Oliver pointed out that it was the women who gave the first sign, not the men; and that is what - with deference - wo ought to bear in mind* it is not a question of honesty. || i ?1 * Dr Co plana* q, You have not any facta that you can give ua about this abortion, have you? <--* Apart from Oliver1 a published writs? q But you are speaking of ethyl petrol?-----Yea, There is Dr ?lim who carried out the woric. q But did Dr Flinn use ethyl petrol? -- Yea, q Or lead ethyl -- in those experiments to which you are 4 referring? -- Be did a number: not only with lead ethyl ..g| concentrated, but also with a thousand to one mixture. ' I think he too* really 1300 to one -- some use both: but we will say it was 1,000 to one. fife gave it specific woric | to do, and his work bears on this 1,000 to one mixture, of ; which he gives details. These are the queationsthat he is asked, and he shows there that in regard to animals on which the 1,000 to one mixture was applied to the skins of animals, pregnant goats and others, the animals aborted and lead was found in the bodies of the foetuses. He definitely says so. CHAIRMAN: These are skin experiments? -*-- Yes; the akin and inhaling. He does the experiments independently. That is .'? ^ a piece of work carried out that is entitled to just as muoh credence as the other, CHAIHMAHI Of course that report of Dr Flinn is before ua. PROS? Dixon: X have another question to aax?-----' There was a '; question that you asked before that I did not give sufficls* /) .' ,y *) p ' J answer to. CHAIF&tAU: Xt was this question: that although those men had been for two or three yeara in the neighbourhood of motors ., uaing this material they had discovered no oases of damage? ~ ,r^,,. --- And my answer was. in regard to animals: that there was HE- 6018319 . .. ............. Dr ?linn who oarrled out the woric. q , nut did Dr Plinn Use ethyl petrol?-----Yen, q Or lead ethyl -- la those experiments to whidi you are > referring?-----He did a number; not only with lead ethyl concentrated, but also with a thousand to one mixture, I thins he too* really 1300 to one -- some use both: but we will aay it was 1,000 to one. fj:& gave it specific work to do, and'his work bears on this 1,000 to one mixture, of which he given details, These are the queebioasthat he in asked, and he shows there that in regard to animals on which the 1,000 to one mixture wan applied to the skins of animals, pregnant goats and others, the animals aborted and lead was found in the bodies of the foetuses. He definitely says so, CHAIRMAN: These are skin experiments? ---- Yea; the skin and inhaling. He does the experiments independently. Shat is a piece of work carried out that is entitled to just as much credence as the other. CHAIRMAN Of course that report of Dr plinn io before us, PROS? DIXON: I have -anotiiar question to asx?-----There was a question that you asked before that X did not give auffiole? answer to. ._ ^ - CHAIRMAN: It was this question; that although those men had been for two or three years in the neighbourhood of motors > using this material they had discovered no cases of damage? And my answer was in regard to animals: that there was? experimental evidence that 'it was dangerous in a short time There was also a third point that you could not tell in two years, PROP. DIXON; That was non quite my question, people who Va ethyl, petrol do not wqeh in it. Those goats that are refer 33 ?2:. Dr Go plans* to were washed in the ethyl petrol? ---- Well, I understand that It was applied to a part of their axin. You will have an opportunity of getting it in very great detail from other witnesses. ( Then as to your experiments on your own axin: you have said that you could not get the lead away from your axin again i; by washing it with Xerosane? -*--* That ia so. ^ % Do you thinX that that waa because the lead was absorbed unde * ' '$ the surface. I mean supposing you had scraped the aXin a % little: rubbed it hard with a hard brush. Did you try that? ` * f..k -----I tried it with Xeroaane. :1 CHAIH.J1AH: Just with a linen rag?----- Just a linen rag -- will : rubbed with Xero 3ena; and that waa simply in conformity with what they did. They used soap as well, PROF. DXiOH: Supposing you used a solution of lead acetate and put that on the ex in: we xnow perfectly well that lead acetate ia not absorbed in the aXin. `That is an established fact? ~--* X thinx that ia so. $ If you were to put lead acetate on the axin in solution , and leave it there a minute, would you be able to get it off by washing?-----1 do not Xnow, 4 Ho, you would not? --- I do not xnow. <1 You get some sort of compound: some form of lead acetate: PM do not you thinX something of the Xind may happen with the lead? ---- The question was put to me by the Chairman and X said then what X Xnew; that the material was fixed on the sxin: but the evidence that it goes into the body is ! H overwhelming. % Oh yes; you need not have said that. I am dealing with this Re 00183?1 experiment? --And X;:eay^^s|^^zv8ens la not..- -. witnesses. Q, Than as to your experiments on your own axin: you hay sale that you could not. got the lead away from your axin again by washing it with Xerosane? --- That is so* Q Do you thinX that that was because the load was absorbed un the surface, I mean supposing you had scraped the aXin a little: rubbed it hard with a hard brush* Did you try that --- I tried it with Xeroaene, CHAZPJ&AH: just with a-linen rag? --- Just a linen rag -- will rubbed with Kerosene: and that waa simply in conforalty with what they did* They used soap as well. PROF. DXIOH: Supposing you used a solution of lead acetate an put that on the ax In: we xnow perfectly well that lead acetate ia not absorbed in the aKin. That is an eatablishsi fact? --- 1 thinic that ia so, Q, If you were to put lead acetate on the ax in in solution and leave it there a minute, would you be able to get it off by washing? --- I do not xnow. q, Ho, you would not?-----X uo not /.now. Q You get some sort-of c orapound: some form of lead acetate: do not you thinic something of the Kind may happen with the lead?----- The question was put to me by the Chairman and 'I said then what I icnew: that the material was fixed on the exin: hut the evidence that it goes into the body is overwhelming/''1^ Q, Oh yea: you need not have said that. X am dealing with this particular experiment?-----And I say that Kerosene ia not efficient for the purpose, Q You draw the conclusion therefore that the lead acetate ia absorbed? --- Hot from that experiiaent. 00183:12,. Sir R0B3RX RQ33RX903T: On is ha purely chemical aide I would li* to as* some quaatioas.Roferring to page wru you find one part or 10,000 of load present. Do you Know the process by whidi this was done?----- Ho, I do not. q You do not Know tils details of that?----- Ho. q 80 it v/oulu be above boiling point?----- Yes q la .005 milligrama correct, or is it 400y graaw? --- It is . OOp milligrams* of determining the amount of lead by a method of difference* ; It is page 10. I thin* you said that you paeaed the 0,0,2, ' through the oil?-----iiay I go b&cjc again, q You my you passed the 0.0,2, through the solution?-----2ha With air across the'surface bubbling, q Bubbling through the material at 220 degrees. Would it not ... have been a much more potent'-.-method if you had condensed h from the 0,0*2, any load which was present, instead of merely taking tliat method of difference?-----Of course there is a limit to the amount of vori I cm expected to do, ib? q Oh, yea. I was referring to the cogency of the experimental method. You could not interpret this difference so well as if you had absorbed the 0.0.2,, or whatever it was, in some exhaust, and determined the lead in that. One could y%v- drain the potash free from lead, then determine the amount of lead from the potash. It would be quite as easy as . .doing the lead in the residual oai^i;|r.i9.ry:jaudi more 'ey which this vaa done?-----Ho, X do not. Q, Yon do not Junovr the details of that? --- Ho. q Then on the next page do you ho-;? the 0',005 milligrams '; was found? ---- By a method of heating referred to in the addendum. 220 - 230 degrees. $ q So it would be above boiling point?-----Yea. q Is .003 milligrams correct, or is it .003 grams? ---- It is .003 milligrams. q 2hen I want to as*.some questions bearing on this method " 'i&i of determining the amount of lead by a method of different*.? It is page 10. X thin* you said that you passed the 0.0.2,1 through the oil?-----iay X go bacx again, q You say you passed the 0,0,2. through the solution? - asBb< With air across the surface -- bubbling, v; q Bubbling through the material at 220 degrees. Would it not ; have been a much more potent method if you had condensed from the 0,0.2. any lead which was present, instead of merely taking that method of difference? ---- Of course there is a limit to the amount of worx I am expected to do. q Oh, yea* I was referring to the cogency of the experimental.: method. You could not interpret this difference so well as if you had absorbed the 0.0.2., or whatever it was, in - * some exhaust, and determined the lead in that;, one could drain the potash free, from lead, then determine the amount . of lead from the potash; It would be quits as easy as doing the lead in the residual oil, and very much more potent, because then you would xnow that the lead had been actually evaporated-- if it wa;j volatile lead. At least you would nave obtained proof that the lead was volatile. KB 00183^4 >3 Dr Uoplana Hera the method of difference seems to be not very cogent ;i and certainly not diagnoutic of the substance that you were after? --- I taice it that it la volatile* Assuming it la so, there ia one part that volatilises* I grant you that assuming you had the time and opportunity you could do a lot more. a My point is that it would not have ta.tr.an any more time* Anyhow you agree that this is not very cogent to prove that it was lead betra-ethyl tha,t came off? I should not lixe to say. I do not xnow. That ia comparing itwo % methods, Q, On page } of your own experiment you give this table of y- % evaporation, 'lhat was the actual spirit that you used. What was its boiling point --* the same boiling point? Was it hisk^t-----Yes. Very high. The same boiling point ia comparatively hig3^u-,, This experiment at 60 degrees Vahrenheit there is practically the same a3 9? degrees Fahrenh&it, the same result:, but it taxes a very long timeii Then evaporation taxes HO.days. Q I daresay, but I wanted to know what petrol you used. Do you xnow its final boiling point?-----I should have to refer for that. (l Was it the ordinary petrol that is used in England? **-- dust the ordinary petrol. Ko.l. fl Are the methods of determination of the load that you used in your own laboratory when you were experimenting on your arm ^described in this document? --- Yes; they are described In very great detail. . j ukj . uo i r k iti cuao xc is volatile . A ssuming it is 30, there ia one part that volatilises. I grant you that assuming you had the tide and opportunity you could 3 - - do a lot mors. ft My point ia that it v/ould not have taxen any more time* Anyhow you agree that this ia not very cogent to prove r.\~ that it v/aa lead tetra-ethyl th*t came off? -- I should not lixe to say, I do not xnow, Shat ia comparing ityo methods. ft On page ) of your own experiment you give this table of :hy-i`" evaporation. What waa the actual spirit that you used, -V What was its boiling point --- the same boiling point? Was it higkj? ---Yea. Very high, She same boiling point ia comparatively higi^*. This experiment at 60 degrees Fahrenheit there ia practically the same as 9? degrees Fahrenln&it, the same result: out it taxes a veiy long time. Then evaporation taxes:'; 10.days, Cl I dans say, but 1 y/anted to know what petrol you used. Do you xnow its final boiling point? ----- X should have to > refer for that. m q Was it the ordinary petrol that is used in England?-----Just the ordinary petrol, ilo.l. q Are the methods of determination of the lead that you used in your own laboratory, when you ware experimenting on your arm described in this document?----- Yes;f they are described in very great detail. CHAISMAU: You have done a good deal of experimenting? -----Yes; and it was a very difficult thing to do. It was all voluntary worX. A'f 0018326 c*.'vVev-`i-vv ; 5* ;: c Dr OopIans. Hr 0HiK.UK: TTith regard to the axin experiment on yourself, of . $. ^ course the method adopted was a little rough, and having regard to that you would not attach very much importance 1 J would you to the precise figure for adsorption'- that you got? ----- I am giving two places of decimals, as a rough calculation, Q I win put it in another way, d o you thin* that experiment C i than ' hV really gave you mere/a sort of noliec.tive statement that there would he adsorption? ----- X would not lixe to say ;" adsorption: I say there is fixation, ^' q le will say fixation if you lixe?-----Might I say also that the lead tetra-ethyl is not removed? q Tould you mind looking at page 3 of your own experiments. They are experiments dealing with water? ----- Yes, q If I understand this^ correctly, you had 16 cubic centimetres of ethyl petrol and an amount of water which must have been small in regard to the dimensions of the tube. It is on page ~ 3? --- sxperiment (a), Q Yes, What I am saying is this: that you employed apparently in the experiment 16 oublo centimetres of ethyl petrol? --'Yes,' q And I say the amount of water must have been small because that is limited by the dimensions of the tube? ----- Yes. q Anyhow, you collected 33 cubic centimetres of water? -- Yes, I ^y s - {) '' Q That is to say twice as much water as you toox of ethyl petrol?----- Yes, Q Then having done that you still found only 0.7 of a part -Aof Iflad in that 0018327 ^ - 4- He regard to that you would not attach very much importance ^ . would you to the precise figure for absorption? that you ' ** got? ----- I am giving two places of decimals, as a rough v calculation, . Wfl v?. . ' -:?$ 0. I will put it in another way, d o you thinK that experiment v: than really gave you mcre/a sort of -;.coliee,tive statement ' -.5- that there would be absorption? ----- I would not lixe to say absorption: I say there is fixation, Q 1 will say fixation if you meet-----Slight I say also that ^ the lead tetra-ethyl is not removed? Q Tould you mind looKing at page 3 of your own experiments. They are experiments dealing with water? ----- Yes. 0. If I understand this correctly, you had 18 cubic centimetres of ethyl petrol and an amount of water which must have been small in regard to the dimensions of the tube. It is on page 3? -- ixperiment (a), Q Yes, What I am saying is this: that you employed apparently in the experiment 15 cubic centimetres of ethyl petrol? -- Yes, Q. And I say the amount jaf water must have been small because that is limited by the dimensions of the tube? ----- Yes. Q Anyhow, you collected 33 cubic centimetres of water? -----Yes, Q, That is to say twice as much water as you tooK of ethyl petrol?-- Yes. .. Q Then having clone that you still found only 0.7 of a part per million of lead in that water? ----- That is so. 0 0.7 of a part per million is not really of the same order -- not enormously in excess of the amount which is sometimes regarded, I win not say as permissible, because i do not thinK anything is regarded as permissible, but as having no * serious significance in potable water? --fen, i should 37 5" suggest that the limit is one hundredth of a grain to the gallon -- 0,14, Q Yes, but tjiis is 0.7. It is not of the same order? ----- You will see an experiment later on. 'r /m. \ I as coining to it in a moment? --- That was the initial experiment. Q That is to say under favourable circumstances you only get 0.'? or a part per million, which is after all a very small amount? -----It is on the threshold of danger. Q. Yes, on the threshold if you liKe, but it is only a trace? ----- It is sufficient in pctauie water to cause trouble. Q I am net saying that it is not -- I am not an authority on that -- I am only asKing whether it is more than trace?' -----I thinfc the question was whether it was on the threshold of danger. Q Ve will assume it is'quite on the threshold, if you HKe, In your next experiment you load the same sort of conditions. The experiment was made in 16 cubic centimetres of ethyl and 100 cubic centimetres of water? ----- yes, Q There you got 0,6 of a part per million? -- Yes, Q, Am I rightly understanding these experiments as showing that you do not even under circumstances of that sort, where the conditions- are as I have described them -- extremely favourable to the taxing up of lead -- gett^s enormous quantities? ----- But I say they would be quite sufficient. 'J .O Q X am not saying that they would not be sufficient: I am dealing with absolute quantities. You do not get enormous r>-quantities?, -- But you do not requ*rev>$noriBpua quantities, H 0018329...... Q Yes, out t_his is 0,7. It is not of the same order? -----Yon will see an experiment later on, q I am coming tc it in a moment?-----That was the initial experiment. Q That is tc say under favourable circumstances you only tlt get 0,7 of a pari; per million, which is after all a very email amount? -----It is on the threshold of danger, > q Yes, cn the threshold if you like, hut it is only a trace? ^ ----- It is sufficient in potable water to cause trouble, q I am net saying that it is not -- I am not an authority on that -- I am only asking whether it is more than % trace?' h -----I think the question was whether it was on the threshold of danger, q \7e will assume it is quit on the threshold, if you like. . In your next experiment you had the same sort of conditions. The experiment was triade in 15 cubic centimetres of ethyl and loo cubic centimetres of water? --~ yes, ' q There you got 0.6 of a part per million? ----- Yes, q im I rightly understanding these experiments as showing that you do not even under circumstances of that sort, where the conditions are as I have described them -- extremely . favourable to the taxing.up of lead -- getting enormous quantities? -- But I say they 'would be quite sufficient, q 2 am not saying that they would not be sufficient: I am dealing with absolute quantities. You do not get enormous quantities?-----But $ou do not require enormous quantities, q I know you do not require any; but even when you have r. conditions which are very favourable to the solution of . lead, you do not get great quantities? -- I think there is another Interpretation for what you care saying -- which I will' come to presently. HiT 0018330 38 21* UOpLana q Yes, if you UXe. Then you filter through sand. sand does not taKe much out. It would not be so liKely to abstract from the liquid as a great many others that were mentioned. If you fit a solution through sand you would not 'v' expect much of the absorbed substance to be taKen out? I am afraid I do not quitefollow your manure. JSS Q I have no motive at all, except to arrive as far as I can '*.'1 at an understanding of these experiments, l?hat I am saying is.& this: is it not a fact that the conditions therefore are not favourable to the removal of lead by anything through which you filter, in other words you have got sand in it; \ : J!c would you expect sand to remove much lead? -- I do not expect sand to remove lead at all, Q Very well: that is an answer to my question. Having regard to the very small amount of lead which you get under favourable circumstances, when you were trying to see what it will taKe out, do you really thinK that there is serious danger of contamination of large water supplies by such quantities of lead as would perhaps be scattered on the earth and be washed through strata, on sand and other things?-----i thinK in ... connection with wells and pools of shallow surface water there would be, because you might easily get a can of petrol which was in the neighbourhood of these places. Q You might of course get a can-full of sheep-dip?-----Yes, but not very often. There are not a million people using sheep-dip in England, but there are a million people using rears, yrr*- does not taKe such out* It would not be so liKely to abstract from the liquid as a great many others that were r| mentioned* If you fix a solution through sand you would not $ expect much of the absorbed substance to be tav:en out? -----I am afraid I do not quitefollow your molitre* ,...`\1*ia '1 n\- Q I have no motive at ail, except to arrive as far as I can *i l';-C at an understanding of these experiments* That I am saying 1b this: is it not a fact that the conditions therefore are not- favourable to the remo7al of lead by anything through .v which you filter* In other words you have got sand in it; ii would you expect sand to remove much lead?-----I do not r r expect sand to remove lead at all* Q Very well: that is an answer to my question. Having regard to the very small amount of lead which you get under favourable circumstances, when you were trying to see what it will taKe out, do you really thinK that there is serious danger of contamination of large water supplies by such quantities of lead as would perhaps be scattered on the earth and be waBhed through strata, on sand and other things? ----- i thinK in connection with wells/and pools of shallow surface water there would be, because you might easily get a can of petrol which was in the neighbourhood of these places, Q You might of course get a can-full of sheep-dip? ----- Yes, but not very often, There are not a million people using eheep-dip in England, but there are a million people using motorcars, Q But one is an accident ^ust as'much as the other, if the well was a very shallow one and the earth-was very porous round it, surely all Kinds of dirt would filter in the wen, and the presence of it there in relation to the other things'- would be .negligible? --- I thinK there is sufficient there top oillute a shallow surface well. That is the answer. HE 0018332 1/4* Dr copians. & 3, Very well, In answer to the chairman and in answer to sir ' ' r'i Charles Martin, I thJmlc you said that you did not Know whether - there would he any concentration of the ethyl petrol as compare with'carDon monoxide* I mean in the case of the material - 4$ coming from an exhaust in certain machines. You do not Know`-V-v^t| from your experience whether there would he any tendency ;-`S for the lead communicating with the air -- not the dust -- as'compared with the carbon monoxide, at a given moment, 'f 'M .. v I nave no evidence, hut my impression is that it would he the other way about* -....''-vV'- 3 0 Assuming that there was no such concentration of lead and the amount of earhon monoxide present was predominating.. Do you thlnK there is would he any reason for prohibiting the use of ethyl petrol? ----- That the amount of earhon monoxide was what? * s Q, That the amount of carbon monoxide present is such that lists poisonous properties must predominate over the amount of the - * ' lead -- ia other words that you would he poisoned by carbon monoxide long before you would be by the lead ethyl, again assuming that that can be shown to be the case, do you thlnK.. there would be any reason for prohibiting the sale of the ^ ethyl petrol?-----I cannot see any relation between the two problems* Q U, there is an intiiaate relation is not there, supposing the lead and the carbon monoxide were, present-to the axhaugt?--Yes Q Assuming the carbon monoxide was there in an amount which if . Jt were leaning, and was concentrr^fe^Ual.cL poison people in KB 0018333 0 Very well. In answer to the Chairman and in answer to Sir % Charles Martin, I thinK yon said that you did not Knew whether3 there would he any concentration of the ethyl petrol as compare! - /M with carbon monoxide* I'mean in the case of the material coming from an exhaust in certain machines* y o u do not Know \S from your experience whether there would be any tendency > for the lead communicating with the air -- not the dust -- as compared with the carbon monoxide, at a given moment, I have no evidence, but my impression is that it would be '3r,v1* I the other way about* Q Assuming that there was no such concentration of lead and the amount of carbon monoxide present was predominating., r Do you thinK there is would be any reason for prohibiting the use of ethyl petrol? ----- That the amount of carbon monoxide was what? 0, That the amount of carbon monoxide present is such that itsxa poisonous properties must predominate over the amount of the lead -- in other words that you would be poisoned by carbon monoxide long before you would be by the lead ethyl, again assuming that that can be shown to be the case, do you thinK. there would be any reason for prohibiting the sale of the ethyl petrol? -- I cannot see any relation between the two >,, problems, Q Will, there is an intimate relation is not there, supposing the lead and the carbon monoxide were present.in the exhaupt?--Yes. Q; Assuming the carbon monoxide was there in an amount which if it were leaKing, and was concen^w^4?<l(<iMw^ct poison people in a short time? ----- Yes. of the lead If there were no concentration/ would you consider the lead problem was serious at ail, or sufficient to justify any prohibition such as we are new dealing with? ----- I cannot see /my connection. '* V'... ME 0018334 .4-6. V.' > * &*i*y yA:`r'-. L5* Dr Ccplans. q "Well, supposing you have a given volume of cartoon monoxide and a given volume of lead, and suppose tide cartoon monoxide tends to disappear: in that case theyewould toe a danger after.. a certain time. But supposing there is no accumulation of lead am the cartoon monoxide also tends to disappear, and ''IB '' its poisonous properties toe diminished, then I asx you do you^ thlnx there would toe a justification for the prohibition of fa lead ethyl?-----I thinx you are putting the question to me in this way: if there are two injuries going on at one f time and one is a fatal injury and the other is only a slight \ injury, would you prohibit the slight injury? q Yes, if you UKe to put it that way?-----I say one is a very slight thin^ and the other is exceedingly fatal, I do not see that one has any relation to the other. q very well, I taxe your answer? ----- Cartoon monoxide is so out of the way, OR&IBMB: You really mean that the other is negligible? --- In the circumstances of the cartoon monoxide,I would not consider lead at ail in the presence of carbon monoxide, q That is my question? -- There is such an extraordinary difference between the two. it is obvious. CKiJHHAH: That is exactly my question. I am glad to Know that it is obvious, P ff s ih w il l ia m WILLCOX; I thinx,Dr coplans, that you have spent a good deal of your professional life in public health worK? .-----Yes, 0018335 vmif rmwonmt# ,a '' f- and a given volume of lead, and suppose the carbon monoxide tends to disappear: in that case the#ewculd toe a danger after a certain time. But supposing there is no accumulation of )?: lead and the carbon monoxide also tends to disappear, and its poisonous properties he diminished, then I asx you do you, thinx there would be a justification for the prohibition ' of the lead ethyl?-----I thinx you are putting the question to me in this way: if there are two injuries going on at one ... time and one is a fatal injury and the other is only a slight injury, would you prohibit the Blight injury? Q Yes, if you liXe to put it that way?-----I say one is a very slight thlny and the other is exceedingly fatal, I do not see that one has any relation to the other, 0 very well, I taxe your answer? ----- carbon monoxide is so out of the way, CHAIRMAN: You really mean that the other is negligible? ----- In the circumstances of the carbon monoxide,I would not consider lead at all in the presence of carbon monoxide, 0, That is my question?----- There is such an extraordinary difference between the two. it is obvious, CHAIRMAN: That is exactly my question, I am glad to Know that it is obvious, '"K'V: SIR flLLIJiM -HILLOCK: I thinx, Dr cap Ians, that you have spent a good deal of your professional life in public health worx? '----- Yes,......... Q I gather that from your numerous degrees? -- I have not got numerous degrees, 0, You are an lf,D, ?-----Yes, 0 I thinx you are very interested in sanitary worx?----- I was . advisor in sanitary worx to the Expeditionary Force, I was advising the sanitation of the second Army, 0018336 L6. Dr coplans, q And your wcrx was recognised by the honours that hay been conferred upon you* You, I gather, have rather approached the subject from the public health aspect? ----- Entirely* Q As a sanitarian?----- quite so, q And as such you taxe extreiae care -- meticulous care in protecting the public health? ----- As is customary, q in regard to the toxic action of lead, the poisonous effect depends upon how much is aosorbed into the system? -- Yes, I agree. q And therefore as regards the inorganic % salts of lead, for instance sugar of lead, or lead acetate, you agree with me that there haye oeen cases where an ounce has been 4 taxen and death has not occurred? --That is so, q Because the poison has not been absorbed? --- That is true, q. You mentioned innyour paper professor Biair-Beii@ worK, in the use of lead in chemistry^-----Yes. q Shall I quote what is the dose of lead, or do you recollect it?----- it is rather high, ,, q You will agree if I put it?-----l will accept what you say, Q In the colloidal lead -------- That is not thin Kind of lead at all, q. Ho, I mean the colloidal lead which is givinenc/aisn'caerhalf per cent solution? --- Yes. Q, And an average dose is 10 cc. That would be 60 milligrams? -----It has unexpected fatal results at times? - Yao ' q Jjto$L agree that in the treatment of cancer 60 milligrams ij of lead is given?-----of colloidal lead? .v^q^Yesijiajrui^sojaetlmes: as. you say.. witbjtPXib prosy Its?----- Yes.-: we 0018337 the subject from the public health aspect? --. Entirely, Q As a sanitarian? ----- Quite so. Q At m! as such you tax extrejae care -- meticulous care in protecting the public health?----- As is customary. Q In regard to the toxic action of .lead,, the poisonous effect I depends upon how much is aosorbeci into the system? -- yes, I agree, Q And therefore as regards the inorganic * salts of lead, for instance sugar of lead, or lead acetate, you agree with me that there have oeen cases where an ounce has been k taken and death has not occurred? -----That is so. Q Because the poison has not been absorbed? --- That is true. Q You mentioned innyour paper professor Blair-Bell1s worK, in the use of lead in chemistry? -- Yes, Q Shall i quote what is the dose of lead, or do you recollect It?----- it is rather high. o. You will agree if I put it?-----I will accept what you say. In the colloidal lead -------- That is not thin Kind of lead at all. * in Octnosr Q. Ho, I mean the colloidal lead which is glven/is a hall* per cent solution? ----- Yes, a And an average dose is 10 cc. That would be 50 milligrams?^ -----It has unexpected fatal results at times? -... > ., Q agree that in the treatment of cancer 60 milligrams of lead is given? -----Of colloidal lead? Q Yes; and sometimes as you say, with toxic results? -- Yes, Q would you regard lead as a cumulative poison? ----- prom one's industrial experience it is so. it is a self-evident proposition. Q Do you consider it ha is one of the best examples we Know of? H 0018 > - L8. Hr coplans. -- As a slow cumulative poison? yes, A lead worxer for Instance has lead gstored in his system, and then becomes entirely free from excess of lead: how long would it be before the lead would be eliminated -----You might say it might be years after* It might go on for years* Q And it was that aspect of lead which influenced you in your d worx? -- Quite, 3. With regard to carbon monoxide, supposing a person absorbs '-d'd carbon monoxide from exhaust gases in a garage: as you Know 4 the carbon monoxide combines with the human blood*-- now long would it be before that carbon monoxide were eliminated, supposing the person went out into the open air? ----- A questioi of minutes or hours. Several hours, I mean eliminated from the blood? ----- Anyhow 1 mean quickly -- a question of days as compared with years, q. A question of a couple of days, two or three days?-----Yes, we `y> vH will say that. Q "When the petrol ethyl spirit is used a certain amount of .sr inorganic lead is produced? --Yes, q Could you tell me what the compound of lead would be in the dust? --60 per cent I should thinx would be bromide, Q The point I want is this: is that compound of lead soluble or insoluble in water? - > ' -- soluble. Q I take it that you would regard that compound of lead as produced by the use of lead tetraethyl you HE 0018339 q Yea, A lead worxer for Instance has lead sav* stored in his system, and then becomes entirely free from excess of lead: how long would it he before the lead would he eliminated' -- You might say it might he years after. It might go on for j years, '/J Q And it was that aspect of lead which influenced you in your \ worx? -- Quite, Q With regard to carbon monoxide, supposing: a person absorbs carbon monoxide from exhaust gases in a garage: as you Know the carbon monoxide combines with the human blood*-- How longi t >* would it be before that carbon monoxide were eliminated, " supposing the person went out into the open air?----- a Question" ,v of minutes cr hours, Q Several hours, I mean eliminated from the blood? -- Anyhow I mean QuicKly -- a question of days as compared with years, Q, A Question of a couple of days, two or three days?-----Yes, we will say that, Q When the petrol ethyl spirit is used a certain amount of * inorganic lead is produced?-- Yes, q Could you tell me what the compound of lead would be in the dust? --- 50 per cent I should thinx would be bromide, q The point I want is this: is that compound of lead soluble or insoluble in water? -- Soluble,............... q I taKe it that you would regard that compound of lead aa - being produced by the use of lead tetra-athyi -- you would regard it as one of the chief risks of the contamination of water supply?----- Undoubtedly, One of the chief riaxs of ordinary dust, not of water, q I was dealing with water supplies? Dr Coplans -- Ah, I do not 'snow, 0, The point was this: if you have lead bromide dust on o the road;,. X do not see much danger in that. I did not sonslder that proposition at all. 0 You mentioned the pollution of shallow wells? -------X was thinking of the pollution of shaiio'v wells from petrol direct, and from oil being poured down. You do not require any special experimental worK to prove that lead bromide can be a source of water contamination, because it is Known that lead is soluble in water, but what we do not Know is what lead petroK will do provided it is allowed to dry in the soil. That was the object of those experiments, I thinK it is proved beyond an doubt that even in three feet of sand it is not Q The point was this: if you have lead broiiside dust on the noad?^ I do not see much danger in that. I did not consider that proposition at all. i fv q You mentioned the pollution of shallow vena? -- I was thi hieing of the pollution of 3'haliow wells from petrol direct, and from oil being poured down. You do not require any special experimental worK to prove that lead bromide can be a source of water contamination, because it is Known that lead is soluble in water, but what we do not Know is what lead petrot will do provided it is allowed > to dry in the soil. That was the object of those * experiments. I thinK it is proved beyond ail doubt that even in three feet of sand it is not removed or destroyed. K* 0018342 43a XX Wf 'xuh . 2r Copianu Q, I was rather surprised that you did not bring out the point of the lead bromide dissolving in water and being conveyed by the underground water channels, and polluting shallow wells.-----From an experimental point of view I do not think I can establish anything other than what you can imagine for yourselves -Knowing that iMd bromide is fairly freely soluble in water* Q bo you think that is a possible cause of pollution? ----- I should think so* I have never considered it at all* I am thinking more of accident -or - design in polluting the well, Q, In your experiments with sand you used, I think, oil containing lead ethyl?----- Yes. nothing has been used in the experiments except material ?;hich was supplied to me by The itesearoh Association. Q, Lead ethyl is easily soluble?-----Yes. S> Therefore do you not. think' that it would stick to the oil rather than go elsewhere? -- The result proves that it goes Into the water. I imagine what happens is some chordeophysical change in which you get a thin film of oil on the surface* % some goes into the water? ----- 3ome goes into the water: experiments prove that it is so, Q As 2Sr Chapman pointed out, not all of it? -- if it went up to 15C0 cc, it would take a long time, Q You did not get all of it? ----- x did not intend to, Q I suggest that one explanation would be that a lot of the ' lead ethyl would remain in the oil which adheres to the surface of the sand?-----And that the bromide might have is. : vv -----ji'wn ;<.parimsn,5s i poms or view I do not think X oan establish anything other than what you can imagine for yourselves knowing that uad PromIda is fairly freely soluble in water. q Do you think that is a possible cause of pollution? X --- X should think so. x have never considered it at all* I am thinking more of accident ^ofn design in polluting the well. q In your experiments with sand you used, I think, oil containing lead ethyl? -- Tea. Ho thing has been used in . ^ the experiments except material which was supplied to me ^ by me Research Association. q Dead ethyl is easily soluble? -- Yes. q Therefore do you not think that it would stick to the oil rather than go elsewhere? -- The result proves that it goes into the water. I imagine what happens la sane chemiao- physical change in which you get a thin film of oil on the ' surface. q 3ome goes into the water? ----- some goes into the water; experiments prove that it is so, m q As Ur Chapman pointed out, not all of it? -- Xf it went up to 1$C0 eft. it would take a. long time. * q You did not get all of it? -- I did not intend to. q I suggest that one explanation would be that a lot of the lead ethyl would remain in the oil which adheres to the surface of the sand? --- And that the bromide might have : gone in? q Yes. --- I quite agree. 3ir ROBERT ROBERTSOK; Do you mean bromide? Sir VILLIAM WILLCOX: I was talking of the oil.-----But the oil is the oil taken from the engine sump. ME 0018344 . 44 X2 23r coplanr ' q And does the oil combine with lead bromide?------ i could not say* i thirl: I hay given you the exact analysis there. Mr PYS: On page 5 of your experiments you :?ay the lead compounds are soluble in water calculated as lead 0*097 per -- ^ cent by weight. --- I a simply concerned Pitft the iadd J. i-4%''v"j soluble in water, we Know to a mathematical nicety when -f\ cases of lead poisoning occur, and the ]^rnentag0 is 0*35 milligrams per gallon to 0*5. V; 31r m TOLCOXt would you, as 3 public official, regard the presence of iPad in detectable quantities in water as -- dangerous? -- I should thin* It was my duty to find out why it was there* q Would you regard it os undesirable?----- I should want to Know why it was there. 3. Would you regard it as dangerous to the public health? ---h o , m it depends on the quantity against do not liKe it there and X should try to Keep it down. q X said, if you found it in detectable quantities? --- Weil, if one found it in detectable quantities, one ought to looK round /V to rind out why it was there. q ^iat limit would you permit in water? --- I certainly should not llKa to permit as much as a third of a milligram, q X thinK you did quote gome figures. -- one hundredth of a gral in a gallon: that is about half a milligram*. q Would you regard that as negligible?----- He: t say you are on the threshold of danger then. q you Know that London, Birmingham and other big cities do not water supplies ..from shallow^wellB?,.-^ quite- so. . KE 0018345 \ HE Mr PTE: On page 3 of your experiments you gay the lead compounds are soluble in water calculated as lead 0.C97 per ; | cent by weight* --- I am simply concerned with the ladd soluble in water. Wo know to a mathematical nicety when I oases of lead poisoning'occur, and the percentage is 0*35 r" milligrams per gallon to 0*5* Sir W& vZLLQOXr would you, as a public official, regard the presence of isad in detectable quantities in water as dangerous? -- I should think it was my duty to find out why it was there* 0, would you regard it as undesirable? -- t should want to Know 1 why it was there* q. would you regard it as dangerous to ths public health? ---Ho, it depends on tne quantity again; 2 do not like it there and I should try to Keep it down. q I said, if you found it in detectable quantities? -- well, if one found it in detectable quantities, one ought to look round to rind out why it was there* q What limit would you permit in water?-----I certainly should not like to permit as ,much as a third of a milligram, q I think you did quote acme figures* -- One hundredth of a grain in a gallon; that is about half a milligram* q Would you regard that as negligible?----- Yes: I say you are on the threshold of danger then. q You know that London, Birmingham and other big cities do not derive their water supplies from shallow wells? ----- quite so* 7 q You rather had in mind country districts where the water is derived fran wells, when you were talking about the danger of contamination?----- Yes. I was thinking of my own experience in the Army; we had a very large number of sw shallow well, and we had to shut them up because of the contamination. 45 ;3 Dr Coplan a q Where was teat? -- That was with the 3eeond Army. We Pad a great many lorries drawing up near wells or water supplies, and depositing spirit. q would you regard the presence of lead in fish as of vf importance from the point of view of rivers? --- Pishing 1 rivers? Ho, I do not; I do not care a rap about fish, and I do not thinK that is of the slightest importance; but when a whole family hag to firini: water from one spot :.;mv and. there is no other source, r do not thinh these people should be poisoned by a pegging car or a pa eg tag lorry, q You are aware that the bondon water supply comes from the Thames water, or a certain proportion of it?-----This is not a problem of river pollution, q X was referring to the contamination of river water by lead. ----- I am not prepared to discuss that at all. q In your experience of the evaporation of the ethyl petrol, you found a concentration of over fourteen times? -- Yes.' q Did you do any shin experiments with those different vs strengths?----- Yes, I have done a lot. q Have you shown that there.is more lead ethyl absorbed with. fourteen times the concentration? ----- Ho. Pirat of all, it is difficult to find volunteers. I do not care to ash a man to do something that I am not prepared to do myself. It is very difficult to get ail at all -------- q I was not criticising, I only wanted to hnow; You did the experiment on yourself with the ethyl petrol? ----- Yes. t q Sid you have your urine tested? -- h o : I did not tninh 1 -there wag any point in that, because.we hnow what happens KE 00134? q would you regard the presence of lead In fish as of v; , Importance from the point of view of rivers?----- ?iehing '/X rivers? h o , I do not; I do not car a rap about fish, .t and I do not think that is of-the slightest importance; ' ; "V* but when a whole family has to firing water from one spot and there is no other source, I do not think these people Should he poisoned by a passing car or a passing lorry. Q You are awaro that the London water supply comes from the Thames water, or a certain proportion of It? ----- This Is not a problem of river pollution. ' q I was referring to the contamination of river water by lead.-----I am not prepared to discuss that at all* Ct In your experience of the evaporation of the ethyl petrol, . you found a concentration of over fourteen times? ~~~ Yes.' q Bid you do any shin experiments with those different strengths? ----- Yes, I have done a lot. q Have you shown that there is more lead ethyl absorbed with fourteen times the concentration? ----- Ho. yirst of all, it is difficult to find volunteers. I do not care to ash a man to do something that I am not prepared, to do myself. It is very difficult to get oil at all -------- '- rS*'> q I was not criticising, I only wanted to know; You did the experiment on yourself with the ethyl petrol? ----- Yes. q . Bid you have your urine',tssted? -- Ho: I did not think there was ary point in that, because we know what happens In regard to animals. The whole question was: Would Kerosene remove it from the skin? q ' ou rather gathered from the amount put on and the amount brought off that the difference would-------- ----- would remain on me. Dr Copians q lam not criticising, Put do not you thin* It would be fairly Interesting If you could estimate the lead in the urine, and possibly in thejpMsoes as well, and then you could get defin ite proof not only that it had been absorbed into the skin hut : had been absorbed into the body? -- well, is it justifiable >? to do that on oneself, knowing there is overwhelming proof- 'Vfj that it does occur in animals? q But you aid the experiment on yourself? -- Yes, on the skin, ' Sj q It would not. have done you any great ham if you had had the ^ aV analyst a made?----- I do not know of any American* who have dona it, and t do not see why r should do it, - 5: q I do not suggest that you should; but if you had had the analysis of the excreta made, was what I was asking. -- I only wanted to determine one point, which was whether it was removed by Ke resend. q As you know, the totra-etnyi is a rapidly soluble substance, and it Is admitted that it is absorbed very rapidly when applied to the skin? -- Tee, very rapidly. ^ q You have no evidence that the ethyl petrol is absorbed in a very rapid degree? --- Dr yiinn'fcas done some work on the question in experiments with a dead monkey, and he has come to the conclusion that the lead t*yl has exactly the same action: there is no difference. q But you agree that the lead in ethyl petrol is absorbed at a very, very greatly less rate than lead tetra-etnyl? ---- Yea, with the addition of the petrol, it renders the absorption more difficult . I think when it is applied to the surface of the skin, it dries very rapidly, and in the . :^j8JP^i^5dfetdrylng-T- think.there1 Ite proof not only that It had bean absorbed into the skin, hut to do that on oneself, knowing there is overwhelm-**^ * **.+ that it does occur in animals? Q But you did. the experiment on yourself? -- Yea, q It would not have done you any great harm if you had had the f 1 analysis made?-----i do not know of any Americans who have done ' it, and I do not see why I should do it, Q I do not suggest that you should? hut if you had had the analysis of the excreta made, was what I was asking, "% -- I only wanted to determine one point, which was whether it was removed by keroseng* Q As you know, the tatra-athyl is a rapidly soluble substance, and it is admitted that it is absorbed very rapidly when applied to the skin? ----- Tee, very rapidly. q You have no evidence that the ethyl petrol is absorbed In a very rapid degree? -- Dr yiinn*has done some work on the question in experiments with a dead monkey, and he has come to the conclusion that the lead etbyl has exactly the same aotion: there is no difference. q But you agree that the lead in ethyl petrol is absorbed at a very, very greatly less rate than lead tetra-ethyi? ----- Yes, with the addition of the petrol, it renders the absorption more difficult. I think when it is applied to the surface of the skin, it dries very rapidly, and In the action of drying I think there is concentration; , Dr BIUD3B: Do you say that kerosene won not remove the ethyl petrol from the skin? Oan you suggest anything that srcwld do . It? Is it the fault of the kerosene, in other words? It is rather an important point. --- Yes* I find that the . x5 hr Coplans Americans tried Kerosene and soap. I did not do that Degauss they proved themselves tnat it was useless to try anything else. :| 9 ?ou think there is nothing else tnat will do it?----- it may *.= .j.'f ysv be that olive oil will do it. v A; in your introduction you state tills, in speaking or garage .^1 vlf work: "With regard to the solid deposits there is no doubt ; 1 that by reason of its physical characters and chemical V composition, these substances would, if present in paint, ' ; come within the provisions of The Lead Paint Regulations 1927, and that workers who handle these substances require similar . legislative protection.* What is that view based on? ----- It is based on the fact that there is more than five percent of solid boc<L in the deposits. a Then it depends on the quantity of deposit as to whether the contact is sufficient?----- quite go. we have no definite evidence of the amount of deposit present. ---- I thinK I have'given some there, and it ig given by The Research Association, q But it would not amount to anything very- great? -- 1 say that the question of one car does not matter at all} but if . you a*e going to have people handling it all dqy long, it is another matter. d But nobody in a garage would handle it all day long? --- I am not at all sure. ci 41 *' a ;4t- HE Q. I thinK they are engaged on other things.-----I think they. are engaged in connection with those deposits at all times. ; on tn. a.imj^tlon going to ns 001835! 4 K q. You think there Is nothing else that will do it?----- it may bo that olive oil still do It* q In your introduction you state this, in speaking of garage , \ work: "With regard to the solid deposits there is no doubt vf - :^f that by reason of its physical characters and chemical composition, these substances would, if present in paint, come within the provisions of The lead Paint Regulations 1927, and that workers who handle these substances require similar 1 legislative protection** What is that view based on? 1 ----- It is based on the fact that there is more than five percent of solid&W,in the deposits* \ ";v*' q Then it depends on the quantity of deposit as to whether the contact is sufficient?----- quite so. ^ q We nave no definite evidence of the amount of deposit present. ----- I think I have given some there, and it ig given by The Research Association* q But it would not amount to anything very great? ----- I say that the question of one car does not matter at all; but if you are going to have people handling if all dqy long, it is another matter. q But nobody in a garage would handle it all day long?----- I asi not at ail sure* q I think they are engaged on other things.----- I think they. are engaged in connection with those deposits at all times* q But it is based on the assumption that there is going to be/ a considerably quantity of it in the garage? --- This is 3*5 Pr cent q Then it depends on the quantity of dust you rind in the garage* 1 do not think you quite agree with hr Kehoe as to the amount of lead he finds in the deposits? -- 1 accept his statement* 0018352 IfS ?( 3Dr coplans. \ H Q, You quota from ur Carl Vogel of St Lute's Hospital* Hew York, w h o says; "Only 3.4. per cent of all patients admitted had significant amounts of lead in stool*. What do you mean by "significant amounta*? ----- I was only quoting there. There iiad been a meeting of the Industrial Hygiene Association of 4 the United states before I got there in which they discussed ^ . : V this. '] 3. In New York it was 4 per cent? ----- Yasp and outside it want to as far as iQC per cent. G Bo you think that ia possible? ----- If one finds it there one accepts it. Q L,am interested in those experiments on the garage workers. -s One of the men was not so exported to the lead petrol, and yet ; they found more lead on his overall than they did on the mechanic who was exposed to it. You would expect it to be the other way round?* -- I do not know. 0 It looks rather as though it was a normal condition, the amount of lead that was found in the foaoes* If you had examined ICO garage workers, you might have found fifty of them with that amount? ----- quite so. Q. Whether they had used lead petrol or not?----- Yes. That was brought out at the Essex Congress: that there was an enormous distribution of lead on the workers, to see what the risks of exposure were. 0, At the bottom of your first page of experiments I think there is a mistake. You say: "Linen swab plus 2 cc. kerosene plus the reagents used for the estimation of the lead. 0.01 mgm of lead tetra-ethvl found. (2) Linen swab plys 2 cc. kerosene iplUS; Il o o . of ethyl petrol. Correcte^fS^Jfhe blank., 1.1 m@n 0018353 *significant amounts*?-----i was 'inly quoting there. There liad been a meeting of the industrial Hygiene Association of 'I the United States before I got there in which they discussed ,'y this. ` 0. In New York it was 4 per cent? Yesp and outside it 4 trent to as far as ICC per cent. /| c. Bo you think that is possible?-----If one finds it there, * one accepts it. | q Ir an interested in those experiments on the garage workers. ^ One of the men was not so exposed to the lead petrol, and yet, they found more lead on his overall than they' did on the t mechanic who was exposed to it* You would expect it to be the other wav round?!-----I do not know. * >/ 0 It looks rather as though it was a norma:! condition, the amount of lead that was found in the foaces. If you had examined ICC garage workers, you might have found fifty of them with that amount.? --- quite so. 0. whether they had used lead petrol or not?----- Yes. (That was brought out at the Essex Congress: that there was an enormous distribution of lead.on the workers, to see what the risks of exposure were. q At the bottom of your first page of experiments I think there is a mistake. You say; Linen swab plus 2 cc. kerosene plus the reagents used for the estimation of the lead. 0.01 mgm of lead tetra-etnyl found. (2) Linen swab plus 2 cc. kerosene plus 1 cc, of ethyl petrol. Corrected for the blank. 1.1 mgtn lead tetra-ethyl found.* I think that must be a mistake. ----- Oh no, that is all r_ight. Br BIUIXJE: it seems a curious thing to find those words. 3ir Wit . WILLCOX: I did not understand it,-----There is a certain amount of lead. 49 -kc--' zxr coplans Q Yes: X can understand it being 9lead*. Yea, I should nave said *lead*. it should be ''lead0, not *keroeene0* hr BHIiDSE: As to tnis question of lead as compared with J . ;if ; acidsi they do not contain only lead petrol add? ----- quite r so* Tile lead is more active on the skin.- ,\iv; q You suggest that it should he scheduled as a poison?----- '***.% q , You would schedule white lead as wall? --- fto. If^it is *,'| known that it produces abortion, and it is known -------- q Cf course it is very important? Yas;i if it is known ..V; that it win produce abortion. ' q Then you think it should be scheduled?----- Yes, because of that * q bo you think women nib it into their skin in order tto produce abortion?----- I do not know what they will do* 31 r Wtt w il l COX: They schedule diaculum? ~-- Yes; and women take diaculum. &r BRIbas: It is not the question of scheduling ethyl petrol, but the ethyl Itself?----- Gii noi the lead ethyl itself* There is lead ethyl being sold by the B.D.K. in the last three years as an ordinary article. Sir Wm Wj l l c o x : Lead etjhyl? ---Lead ethyl. There It is; they sell it concentrated as lead ethyl. CHAIRMAN: Thank you* KfT 0018355 O fA .i'yc._ !fn**^*'''^**'', *. ' (The Witness withdrew). v ' * . nr mawm as w u s question or leaci ss compared with acids: they do not contain only lead patrol acid? ----- Quits ' so. The lead is wore active on the skin* q You suggest that it should he scheduled as a poison? --~ Yea: Q, You would schedule white lead as wall?----- Xf^it is known that it produces abortion, and It is known ~------ q Of course it is very important? --- Yes;: it it is known that it will produce abortion. Q. Then you think it should be scheduled?----- Yes, because or- . -v.A- that, q Do you think women rub it into their skin in order tfco . produce abortion? --- I do not know what they will do* Sir nr, viLLCOX: They schedule diaculum? -- Yesj and women take diaculuRu Sr BRXD3K: It is not the question of scheduling ethyl petrol* i but the ethyl itself? ----- On no: the lead ethyl itself* There is lead ethyl being sold by the B.P.K. in the last three years as an ordinary article. Sir Yin WILLCOX: lead etjfeyi?-----Lead ethyl. There it is: they sell it concentrated as lead ethyl* CEAXKtfAK: Thank you* (The. witness withdrew). Kjr 0018356 (The committee adjourned for lunch). i>0 Mr H* S* ROWELL called and examined* HE CHAIRMAN: I thinh you are the Director of the Research Association of the Allied Motor Manufacturers?----- Yes*' Q You are the senior associate of the School of Mines, a Bachelor of Science and have various other distinctions, ? You have been concerned with those experiments that Dr Coplans has been telling us about this morning?----- Yes. ' :'I ^' `v - o Q Many of them were done at your Research laboratory, I thinh? ' t ----- The engine tests were done there, " Q, Would you tell the Coxamittee briefly what you can tell them in regard to the health dangers of this ethyl gasolene, Eirst of all, in regard to those two mechanics, were they your * workmen?----- Yes, (l Did you notice at all that they were ill?----- Ho, 3ir, they were not ill; and they were repeatedly-questioned during the tests as to whether they felt any ill effects. Without exception they answered no. .- Q You are familiar with the finding of lead in the excreta of one of the workmen? --- Yes, Q Do you attach any consequence to that at all?----- Mo. m fact during the progress of the examination I wa3 informed that lead had been found and*therefore ashed the mechanic to enquire of the specialist at the college as to whether the lead had any influence, so that he could tahe him off his worh; but he was informed that the trace of lead was y h so minute and might easily be caused by soldering -- of which he did a good deal -- so that there was no danger .-..^apparent from that, - .. . Association of the Allied Motor Manufacturers?----- Yes* <4 You are the senior associate of the School of Mines, a Bachelor of Science and have various other distinctions. '-'i You have been concerned with those experiments that Dr Co plans has been telling us about this morning?----- Yea* ; <* Many, of them were done at your He search. laboratory, I thin2c?'| ----- The engine tests were done there. q Would you tell the Committee briefly what you can tell them in regard to the health dangers of this ethyl gasolene, S'irst j . :V f- of all* in regard to those two mechanics, were they your r% workmen?----- Yes, & q Did you notice at all thau they were ill? :----- iio, sir, they were not ill; and they were repeatedly questioned during the tests as to whether they felt any ill effects. Without exception they answered no. q You are familiar with the finding of lead in the excreta of one of the workmen?----- Yes. q Do you attach any consequence to that at all?----- Mo. In fact during the progress of the examination I was informed that lead had been jfound and*therefore ashed the meohanio to enquire of the specialist at the college as to whether the lead had any influence, so that he could taica him off- ; hie worh; but he was informed that the trace of lead was so minute and might easily be caused by soldering --- of which he did a good deal -- so that there was no danger apparent from that. q So you did not yourself thinx that tila lead that was found in the excreta had necessarily come from the ethyl petrol? ----- Well, I did not personally. At least for some time I did not because there was no lead found in the second man. On going into that to try and find the explanation of it I found KE 0018358; 51 Hr Howell that mechanic A. had Caen wording at the engine, whereas V> mechanic B. had not and mechanic A. was more exposed to the V?; action of ethyl petrol -- if it has an action -- than any ordinary man in a garage or in a motorists depot could possibly be* He was constantly adjusting the carburettor, ;V. very often holding his hand over the inlet: his arms were frequently exposed, and in filling the overhead tanic ss `H ?! occasionally the ethyl petrol would trickle down,Ms anas and-, 3' , -h -y v inspite of warnings he did not taxe any precautions to wash ,:i| it off; so I was not surprised to find lead storage: nor Was 2 doubtful that it was from the ethyl petrol, y'>?U<<J ? You 'chime some of it did come from that?----- Yea, I thinX soY\ These workmen were engaged X gather in scraping these engines? ----- Yes, That was after the cars had done their mileage* They were brought there and opened out and various deposits were removed, (J, Those two mechanics were gngaged on that worn? --- They were both engaged equally on the scraping: I did some myself: in fact I too& part in removing-every deposit in order to get an idea of the texture and hardness of it. Dr BAiJDiSR: There are one or two very minor points I should lifce ' to asx you about. Could you describe just a little more at length the nature of the texture and hardness of the deposits you have jU3t referred to. That is to say, to what - extent is it conceivable that those deposits might maitye dust? ----- Certainly. The nature of the deposits varies very widely , indeed according to the conditions in which the engine has been running. 5*or instance, on a small engine, running the thing cold and with plenty of oil you get a lead mass on the ordinary man in a garage or in a motorists depot could possibly be* He wa3 constantly adjusting; the carburettor, very often holding his hand over the inlet: his arms were ' "g! frequently exposed, and in filling the overhead tanic occasionally the ethyl petrol v/ould trickle down,hia arras andJ inspite of warnings he did not taice any precautions to wash it off; so I was not surprised to find lead storage: nor was X doubtful that it was from the ethyl petrol. q, You thinic some of it did come from that?----- Yes, I thinJC so.-,)V?*' These workmen were engaged I gather in scraping these enginea?Ji Yes. That was after the cars had done their mileage* /i- They were brought there and opened out and various deposits ' ^ were removed, . Q, Those two mechanics were gjngaged on that worjc? --- They were '! both engaged equally on the scraping: I did some myself: in ' 'Vfc fact I tooic part in removing every deposit in order to get . ,! an idea of the texture and hardness of it. hr LAi$l)3R: There are one or two very minor points I should liJce to asx you about. Could you describe just a little more at length the nature of the texture and hardness of the deposits you have jU3treferred to. That is to say, -to what extent is it conceivable thatthose deposits mightmaj^e dust? ;^ ----- Certainly, The nature of the deposits varies very-widely indeed according to the conditions in which the engine has been running. Sor instance, on a small engine, running the tiling cold and with plenty of oil you get a lead me^as on the " surface, in the silencer, especially if it is deficient inA !W oil, you certainly get mostly carbon. You getr-a loo Be ,carbon-IlVA with a greyish tinge in the lead mixture. But the deposits ' i'\ V 'fe. vary not only in hardness, but sometimes you; get it as thought for v the engine had been running/some miles for instance, with a\ HE 0018360 A. 52 V-*'- Ut Kowe11* rich mixture and plenty of oil, you get a caka of carbon; and then you can surmise after that that thit online was run hot, and with the leaner mixture you get some of the old. carbon burnt off and a dieter carbon deposit. Then you get a fresh layer. Then sometimes in the exhaust pipes and &V exhaust valves you get a very hard radish deposit. It la ( ,r| hardly a scale. In fact it la hardly a deposit, it is more till - like some alloy on some iron. The variety of the deposit ^ was so great that no attempt was made to analyse, byend fi one or two outstanding features, in general I thimc it was ^ found that the exhaust water contained more chloride and ' '? the carbon deposits more bromide, but 3' should not like to make them too definite. . _\'r q, Would it be fair to summarise it by saying that the powdery material was more likely to come from the exhaust pipe; and the dust which has come off during de-car bonis ing, or something like that, is on the average,generally speaking, a softer material -- I am thinking more of the dust in the garage rather than the dust in the.street? ---- I find it very * difficult to answer, because on the exhau3t valves as a rule you get a dry thin layer of duat, but underneath you get a hard pink scale that flies up, and that is difficult to analyse. Then in some of the valves where one cylinder is over-oiled, for instances, you get the oil holding the carbon and the duat in a soft layer. I think the great dust danger, if there ia oneu lies in the silencer, uut ; . moat silencers are seldom cleaned out, unless there is irf back-firing in the street, then you may get a aloud of black dust blovsm out through firing the silencer. "4`i hft.'fc-'Si a '-? **n--4 < * 4intr-- ~ K 0018361 ^aiwa vuiad uu ana a arjK&r caroon deposit. Then you get hardly a acale, in fact it is hardly a deposit, it ia more' ^ like some alloy on some iron. The variety of the deposit " was so great that no attempt was made to analyse, berond one or two outstanding features, in general I tiling it was-.- found that the exhaust water contained more chloride and the carbon deposits more bromide, but I should not like to make them too definite. q Would it be fair to summarise it by saying that the powdery material was more lively to come from the exhaust pipe; and ; the duet which has come off during de-carbonising, or something like that, ia on the average,generally speaking, a softer material ---I asa thinking more of the dust in the garage rather than the dust in the street? --- I find it very `h ;. difficult to answer, because on the exhaust valve3 as a rule you get a dry thin layer of dust, but underneath you get a hard pink acale that flies up, and that is difficult to analyse. Then in some of the valves where one cylinder ia over-oiled, for instances, you get the oil holding the carbon and the dust ia a soft layer. I think the great ^ , dust danger, if there is ones* lies in the silencer. But most silencers are seldom cleaned out, unless there is hack-firing in the street, then you may get a cloud of black dust blown out through firing the silencer, q That ia perhaps likely to occur at long' intervals with a car, but it is a fairly definite thing to happen, is not it. You might get storage in the exhaust pipe. Could not you say that with practioally every car, perhaps once a week, you might?; clear quite a.-lot of stuff out of its silencer? -- By back-firing, yes you would. 00 l WX-. ~ jif> - Hr Roweij., q So herd it is a condition lixe that?----- Yes. I am not quite aura whether thia ia a ailly question. It occurred to me in connection with where you aay it ia seldom that a raotroiiat needa to adjust hie carburettor, I was wondering whether there was any tendency with the use of ethyl petrol for the carburettor to need adjusting more frequently: where the petrol had been standing, where some'- ; decomposition had taKen place, and where there waa a ",v5' " +, . tendency for the jeta to get stopped up more?----- Supposing V a ear is standing for a long time, in which case the word - aB d- "seldom'* applies -- in regard to stopping the jets we have not found that except where the acetylene lamps are used. But ^ : in regard to the carburettor, unless the engine was running very badly it ia very unlikely that jets get blocked* q in the last paragraph, referring to your letter in Mature -- whidinl have not before me at the moment -- you aay the maximum possible increase of energy obtained from ethyl petrol -- that I suppose ia with the present concentration? --- That is so. Dr Da h d er : Than* you. ; MAJOR GALWSY: Were thebe mechanics who were tested your own mechanics?----- Yea. q Were they volunteers or were they just detailed to the wor*? ----- They were detailed. It was part of their vor*. q They did not seem to mind using this stuff at all? --- Ho. q Had they any apprehension?----- Ho: except tha* as regards any special teste t)iat I had occasion to forbid, becauae it waa not part of their worx, but the testing of engines and -experimenting with any sort of fuel is part of their wor* that a motoiiat needs to adjust his carburettor, X was wondaring whether there waa any tendency with the use of ethyl petrol for the carburettor to need adjusting more '-"W frequen--tly: where the petrol had been standing, where aoms^ ills' decomposition had taXen place, and where there waa a *?$* tendency for the jeta to get stopped up more?----- Supposing a car ia standing for a long time, in which case the word -< "seldom4 applies -- in regard to stopping the jets we have not; found that except where the acetylene lamps are used* But , ? in regard to the carburettor, unless the engine was running| very badly it is very unliXely that jeta get blocXed, n Q in the last paragraph, referring to your letter in Ifature -- j whichnl have not before me at the moment -- you say the maximum possible increase of energy ootained from ethyl petrol -- that I suppose is with the present concentration? That ia so* Dr IiASDSR: Than* you. MAJOR GALW3Y: Were these mechanics who were tested your own mechanics? --*-* Yes, yy; q Were they volunteers or were they just detailed to the worjc? --- They were detailed. It was part of their worX, Q They did not seem to mind using this stuff at all? ~ SCo.ir. i q, Had they any apprehension? --- Bfo: except 1that as regards any special teats that x had occasion to forbid, beoauae it waa not part of their WorX, but the testing of engines and experimenting with any sort of fuel ia part of their worX ' --^ and they are expected to do it, Q They did not seem to mind using this stuff?-----if they had they would have had to go. And they still employ on this the same two men?----- Yea, K& 0018364 54 Hr Howall. \ ir^ HE 0018 q Have you noticed any detriment to their health at all? --* Ho, q As regards Dr Co plans finding about the overalls, have you as a matter of fact taXeh any steps as regards laundries since that time? ---- Ho, normally I insist that they shall have clean overalls once a waex, but for the special purpose of this experiment the overalls were used continuously from the beginning to the end, and they were certainly very f| dirty. . :#lf q So that those overalls would be abnormally dirty? -- Oh, V'r very much so, Perhaps I might explain the preponderance \ of the material on the overall of mechanic 3, by saying that he has a very bad habit of wiping his hands on hia overalls, Mr PYS: There is a figure which X thinx you are responsible for, which was quoted this morning, namely, 94 milligrams of lead per cubic metre of exhaust gas?----- Yes, Q That seems to me rather an important figure, because certain calculations were based upon it, because the amount of lead per cubic metre of exhaust gas would depend upon ' the mixture^ strength? Yea, < q I thought it might be useful if you would tell ua the basis of that calculation, Xs that 94 milligrams on the assumption . that just enough air was taxon in to bum all the petrol ethyl?----- Ho* `That is worXed out on a ,084 mixture, as 12 to 1; but if you taxe 16 to 1 then you get a greater volume of exhaust gas, and therefore a lower lead content per cubic metre. Then again 80 milligrams per cubic metro; that is 16 to 1, q, in fact you were allowing in the 94 milligrams for a certain since that time? ~ He, normally I insist that they shall have clean overalls once & wee*, tut for the special i purpose of this experiment the overalls were used continuously `-'ml from the beginning to the end, and they were certainly very dirty. - M Q So that those overalls would be a'cnutnaally dirty? --- Oh, very muoh so. perhaps I might explain the preponderance vfc*airn* of the material on the overall of mechanic B, by saying that he has a very bad habit of wiping hie hands on his 4 r- .r,, s-.l overalls. Mr PYB: There is a figure which I thinx you are responsible for, which was quoted thia morning, namely, 94 milligrams 4 of lead par cubic metre of exhaust gas? --- Yea, Q That seems to me rather an important figure, because certain calculations were baaed upon it, because the amount of lead per cubic metre of exhaust gas would depend upon, the mixture^ strength? -----'Yes. q, I thought it might be useful if you would tell ua the basis of that calculation. Is that 94 milligrams on the assumption that just enough air.was taxen in to bum all the `petrol ; ethyl?----- Ho. That is worXed out on a ,084 mixture, as 12 to 1; but if you taxe 16 to 1 then you get a greater volume of exhaust gas, and therefore a lower lead content per oubic metre. Then again 80 milligrams per cubic metre: that ia 16 to 1, Q, in fact you were allowing in the 94 milligrams for a certain richness of mixture which would be normally existing in a motor car engine ? -- It is a good average figure. You could go to a 10 to 1 mixture, in which case you would have to taXe 106 milligrams per cubic metre; so I thinX 94 ia a very good ^ average for running conditions. KE 0018366 55 KT 0018367 ?6 V 41 Q' Mr Sowall. q X wanted to be quite clear that you were not taxing a lean mixture than? ---- Ho* Diere ie a point that X ought to mantle X thinX: that is that 94 is calculated out on the assumption of H grams of metallic stead per gallon of petrol, The lead content in the lead petrol varies somewhat from perhaps 5,1 to 3,6; ao that by assuming 3*5 we have not been weighting ' ,7 .... - ' --vl the evidence in favour of one aide* ' .? ' >| Q On page 5 of your memorandum in the first paragraph you sayf$ "Moreover lead tetra-ethyl appears to decompose very rapidly^ in the open and the total quantities split are proportionatel] . ' 'i small*, Have you done any experiments on that decompositionsr of tatro-ethyl lead? ---- Tea; we have done quits a number of ^5... / - experiments th with puretetra-ethyl in petrol, in various * proportions, but the moat striding experiment -- which X carried out personally -- was in connection with corrosion, X was interested to xaow whether engine cylinders or petrol tanXs are not corroded with this new fue^ and x put various samples of metals in bottles with various fuels and found no corrosion, X found the ethyl petrol decomposed very VW^ rapidly, frequently under the action of very moderate heat,; What the decomposition was X do not Know, but there were ;ji- depositsbn theWalls of the bottle -- grey deposits aagd the.;. fuel itself appeared to lose a little of ita colour, X could not say very definitely on that, q Bid you test the effect of the temperature on the decomposi tion at all? -- Ho, should not call it a test, Xt was mor< observation. Any cold surface in the engine appears to retain more of the character of the original fuel, naturally, than a hot duffaoe. q Would you say that decomposition is lixely to be in oxidation? as*. *now, x have. 2* ad XaU*.... in connotioh.b:f: * /g ** h w v m1)T*V* woau |l0f *vv.. Vi JIVSfVA* i'H9 i9Wi$| ``vtjf content in the lead petrol varies somewhat from perhaps 3.If5 to 3,6; so that by assuming 3*5 we have not been weighting'-** the evidence in favour of one side, q on page 3 of your memorandum in the first paragraph you say:. "Moreover lead tetra-ethyl appears to decompose very rapidSyl V ..' ' V7f in the open aai the total quantities split cure proportionate: small*. Hare you done any experiments on that decomposition2 of tatro-ethyl lead? --< Yea: we have done quite a number of, experiments th with pure tetra-ethyl in petrol, in various proportions, but the most striding experiment -- which I carried out personally was in connection with corrosion*/ 2 was interested to xnow whether engine cylinders or petrol tanhs are not corroded with this new fue^ *and l put various rf^ samples of metals in bottles with various fuels and found no corrosion, 2 found the ethyl petrol decomposed very rapidly, frequently under the action of very moderate heat. What the decomposition was X do not Xnow, but there were : - deposits on the walls of the bottle grey deposits and the fuel itself appeared to lose a little of its colour, X could 0 .:V` not say very definitely on that, q Did you test the effect of the temperature on the decompoai-*, . * '/'A tion at all? -- 3So 2 should not call it a test, it was mors observation. Any oold surface in the engine appears to :tsretain more of the character of the original fuel, naturally, than a hot ftuffaoe. q Would you say that decomposition is liXely to be in oxidation?^ ---- I do not toww, x have read. Hellor on Lead in connection with this worx, and found that the conditions lively to occur both In the engines and the pipes are so compileatad that it is very difficult to reach anything more than veiy general conclusions. In the engine cylinder, for instance^ you have an atmosphere rich in 0,0,, where you get lead . * oxide bei# reduced, and very often theatmosphere is I fluctuating a good deal also, X should have thought that the decomposition of the tetra-ethyl <teod -- I am speaxlng \ not as a chemist but from general observation -- la \ rather a breaking down of the compound, ^ 368 B.X /K -w V"/- l y v . ; i. {i r H F 0018369 ) f .hr Mr Rowell rV v*`i& . . vt , ' fi'fcp'-' q The point I was really jawing towards was this? whath#*, .-''Is ir there is. any dxxgKX tetra-ethyl load, that should get ' ' A- ' '"y| into the crank case into the oil, it is likely to remain lead tetra-ethyl seeing that the oil is certain to he fair; well aerated, and that it is at a temperature or 50 degreei'l or o - whether that lead tetra-ethyl is not very lively ii| "become decomposed or oxidised into some non-yolatile fora^ -- That is wf impression, in rant, apart from the start!* conditions - startling in cold weather there you might get mtthm ipl liquid petrol caaing down the cylinder walls into the cranky case - I rind it very difficult to imagine the. tetra-ethylfpf lead ever reaches the crank case* and we round just recently)^ only one example of obvious tetra-ethyl lead on the ^^ cylinder head, and that was due to the engine having stopped just after an Induction stroke, so that the liquid petrol had been drawn in on to the surface before the next . firing stroke be^an There is that possibility of tetra-ethyi^ lead in the form of a petrol being either in the crank case 0! or in the cylinder head; ;tmt the amount is extremely small* ^ pr o p. DIXCK: in view of what you say, would you think there/: would be any moredanger in cleaning out the cylinder heads than in cleaning the oil tank? ~-- I should not like to say* that. The risk depends so much on the care of the man, and 'J. whether he has small cuts on his hands; but 1 should say that in cleaning engines out, either in the cylinder heads or the, crank oases, there is extremely little need for contact witlH the skin* But even if there were contact with the skin, it is not . lead tstra-ethyl seeing that the oil is certain to t> fairly >li aerated, and that i*-is at a temperature or 30 degree# or so - whether that lead ietra-othyl is not very lively to "become decomposed, or oxidised into some non-volatile form? ----- That is lay impression. in fact, apart frm the starting conditions - starting in cold weather fhsre you might get the liquid petrol coning down the cylinder ;?alls into the crank case - 1 find it very difficult to imagine the tetra-etnyl lewd ever reaches the crank case; and :e found .just recently only one example of obvious tetra-ethyl lead on. the cylinder head, and that was due to the engine having stopped just after on induction stroke, so that the liquid petrol had "been drawn, in on to the surface before the next firing stroke deep; mere is that possibility of fcetra-etfcyl lead in the form of a petrol being either in the crank case 0: or in the cylinder head; Put the a/iount is extremely small, op.Obh BUCK: In view of v'hat you Say, would you think there would be any 20ore danger in cleaning out the cylinder heads than in cleaning the oil tank? --- 1 should not like to say that. The risk depends so much on the care of the man, and v/nether he has small cuts on nis hands; "but 1 should say that in cleaning engines out, either in the cylinder heads or the crank cases, there is extremely little need for contact with the skin. 0, But even if there wore contact with the skin, it is not absorbed into the system ordinarily? ----- I suppose not; but that, is not my province. 0, I mean, contact with the skin would not matter unless there is lead ethyl?-----Even then <va do not mind; no use cottonwo< or mutton cloth, to wipe out the final traces. KE 0018370 57 Kr Rowell l It 10 quite an easy matter to olean out these deposits? -- on yes* ,fl q And the danger is said to be due to the duet that la caused? ----- Yes, q Take the case of dry pa&it, old paint, such 4s is used in these days, you use a wiper to wipe It down? ---- Tee. q Surely that could he done in the same way in the gylinder 4. head? ----- Yes, I should think go. If It was dusty, there Is no more difficulty in dusting it than In dusting the floor, q quite. You could not give any figures as to the amount of lead in this deposit in comparison with the amount of lead in old scraped-off paint? ---- T should have said less; tut t<n+1 I cannot remember what the^posltion of paint is. z should gay it is generally less on account.of the carbon. The carbon forms a very large bulk} but it is lees in the deposit, q less in the cylinder? *-- All through. q Wnat becomes of the old paint that is scraped off our houses? --- I 4b not Know} in fact i have only seen them scraped off by burning a blow lamp, q That ig out of date} but what becomes of the old psint? ----- ' I could not gay* q Does it contaminate the workman? it might if it is discarded and ie not carefully collected? -- I do not know whether it le burnt or how it is done. 3ir ROBERT R0BBRT30K: following up an answer that you gave.to Mr Pye that you did not see why there should be any ^ p IrTf undeoomposed lead tetra-ethyl in the crank case oil, we have had some evidence put before ue from which it ig -M-l & ^f^Jfe^Otd*,that, there,,:ie ,:-in :the erawk: q Ana the danger le said to tie due to the dust that is caused? --~ Yes. q Take the case of dry pallet, old paint, such 4s Is used in these days, you use a wiper to wipe it down? -- Yes* q Surely that could he done in the ease way in the sylinder head? ----- Yes, I should think so. If it was dusty, there is no more difficulty in dusting it than in dusting the floor. q quite. You could not give any figures as to the amount of lead in this deposit in comparison with the amount of lead 5 in old scraped-off paint? *--> t should have said less; hut 1 tCTH. ' I cannot remember what the^.position of paint is* x should say; /I it is generally less on account , of the carbon. The oar&on forms a very large bulk; but it is less in the deposit, q Less in the cylinder? --- All through, q What becomes of the old paint that is scraped off our houses? -- X dp not know; in fact I hay only seen them scraped off by burning a blow lamp. Q That is out of date; but what becomes of the old paint? ----- I could not say. q Does it contaminate the woxtoian? It might if it is discarded and is not carefully collected? -- I do not know whether it is burnt or how it is done. i{0 Sir ROBERT ROBERTBOBr: following up an answer that you gave.to Hr Pye that you did not see why there should be any undeoomposed lead tetra-ethyl in the crank case oil, we have had some evidence put before us from which it is deduced that there is in the crank case oil a certain amount of lead tetra-etnyl; would you be surprised to hear that? --~ I was * q You do not know by any chance the chemical process that was HE 0018372 58 Or. ur Rowell used "by the institution which examined that lead? -----X ^understand it was the fixed analysis# q was not that used simply for an affirmative test?----- h o , 1 think not, i cannot gay frcsc personal Knowledge, Put 2 understand that the method that Is now used in these examinations is to insert a minute fraction of lead and take a photograph* "V-' d put it through the spectroscopet -*-* Tees we tested it through photographs* q you think that was not used affirmatively? -- As far as- I Know. * Mr OHAPMAiJ: There is a statement here - I think it is quoted from some American publication - that at the peak hours of . traffic a contamination of O.S parte of carton monoxide per 1C,CC0 part# of air exists*. -- la that on page 2? o. I beg your pardon; it is pn page 4. of your proof, the first paragraph. *-- That is taken frcm an automobile journal, and 2 understand it toe been based on a report to which the Chairman referred this morning* ^ q 2 follow. Then in the next sentence you say: t%tng this .v- peak value as a measure of dilutlon^tdi^eeh can be shown that the lead risk is negligible0. That of course is merely deduction and is based, I suppose, on the assumption that lead would rise or fall sari Passu with the carbon monoxide. Have you any views on the matter whether there would be any possibility of the lead increasing while the carbon monoxide O ' diminished, or do you think they would tend to rise and fall ) together; or do you think there would be at any moment a up n n 1 ^r; q -preponderance of the carbon monoxide owing to its greater X think not. X cannot Bay from personal Knowledge, hut X understand that the method that is now used in these * examination is to Insert a minute fraction or lead and take a photograph. % Put it through the spectroscope? *TM Tees we tested it through photograph. q You think that was not used affirmatively? ----- As far as I know. Ur OKAPMASj There is a statement here - I think it is quoted from some American publication - that et the peak hours of . i J traffic a contamination of O.S parts of carbon monoxide f per 10,eeo parts of air exists*. -- X' that on page 2? o, x beg '/our pardon: it is pn page 4. of your proof, the first paragraph. --- That is taken frcm an automobile journal, and x understand it has been based on a report to which the Chatman referred this morning. q X follow* Then in the next sentence you my: *Uietng this peak value as & measure of dHut ion it can be sho?m tfosfc the lead risk is negligible*. That of course is merely deduction and is basdd, X suppose, on the assumption that lead would rise or fall url Passu with the carbon monoxide. Have you any views on the matter whether there would be any 4 possibility of the lead increasing while the carbon monoxide diminished, or do you think they would tend to rise and fall together; or do you think there would be at any moment a preponderance of the carbon monoxide owing to its greater 1? precipitation and the greater tendency of the lead to remain? - Yes: X formed the view that the lead was 90 finely divided, it being produced in great dilution, and the amount diluted;c;% in an enormous quantity of airj and it would b Mr Rowell discharged, ana a very large amount would be absorbed perhaps In carton particles afterwards, carried by water vapour, and I should way that the lead dust, as metallic dust, is probably a very small proportion. ^ Might not sme of it he discharged as lead promlds or chloride? -- Teo, X suppose so* q X was wondering whether the U.k <L pari Passu would go down with the carton monoxide or whether there would he a tendency '-t for one to increase while the other was diminishing?----- I may give an illustration! We have had an engine running now since January, and X have looked very carefully for any signs of lead and find no trace of lead or of anything which would suggest anything apart frem the ordinary. 0 Of course in fact what happens as to the old paint is, // I suppose, that there must he a good deal of lead dust about; and considerable quantities of lead, X take it, have at times, or over long periods,'been added to the agricultural land with the super-piiosphate manures and things of that sort; so that the soil must contain some lead; so that if the constant effect of the ethyl petrol were not to increase materially the amount or lead - which might conceivably come nonnally in the dust - then X suppose you would feel that the risk would be a negligible one? --- x have reached this conclusion mostly on the examination,hatching the two mechanics* and the difference between the two findings, as well as on general- reading*. Mr CHAPMAN: Thank you. 1,6 Sir WII.LIAM wiu,C0X; If a car is running in a garage, do you see . asy of the fumes from the lead: can ypu^tli ,^if a car wereV ^ K 0018375 u h ue ^.trau uusu| ss wevttXAlC QU8l( IS probably a very email proportion. * ^ Might not s<*ae of it be discharged as lead bromide or chloride? -- Tec, Z suppose so. q x was wonderirg whether the Umd, pari Passu would go down .^r#4 m >%; with the cartoon monoxide or whether there would toe a tendency *<-v for one to increase while the other was ditainishing?-----I may give an illustration;. We have had an engine running now since January, and t have looked very carefully for any signs of lead and find no trace of lead or of anything which would suggest anything apart rroa the ordinary, q Of course in fact what happens as to the old paint is, I suppose, that there must toe a good deal of lead dust about; and considerable quantities of lead, I tafce It, hare at times* or over long periods, toeen added to the agricultural land with the super-phosphate manures and things of that sort; so that the soil must contain some lead; so that If the constant effect of the ethyl petrol were not to increase materially the amount of lead - which might conceivably come normally in the dust - then I suppose you would feel that the rlsh would toe a negligible one? ---- Z have reached this conclusion mostly on the examination, watching the two mechanics, and ^ M the difference between the two findings, as well as on i general reading. Kr CHABiAWi Than*, you* :' Sir TfZtLZAM WXL1C0X; If a car is running in a garage, do you see any of the fumes from the lead; can you tell, if a car were running in a garage, whether ethyl spirit is toeing used or ordinary petrol? ---- X do not thirds: so. q Zhe fumes are not visible? ---- x do not thinfc so. Q The finely divided lead is not visible?-----Oh no. We have watched the rjmning very carefully and certainly there are 3lZ.fi -Tv...,, c. - ' ' Mr Rowell no signs of lead; that is quite clear, q With regard to lead in vegetation, is it the fact that lead stops the growth of plants and flowers? -- I have never heard of that. Dr BRIDGE: You have said that the water was quite clear?----- Yes. as q Did It remain very long?----- Yes: It remained/a minute quantity of lead chloride, q wot much ^chloride?-- Oh, a fair amount, mi`g q in an engine running slowly there is generally a trip? ---Yes,m^:i if it was cold. <f `i q That would contain most of the 3^d petrol or lead Bromide? a s far as my experience goes it-would contain * lead Bromide. q A good deal?----- Yes. Another difficulty arises in this way: that you have got this aqueous vapour coming down the exhaust pipe, passing through the system, which.:Ls slowly charged with the lead, and it is accumulating. You cannot mate definite statements as to what might happen. Mir naWXLLBOX: When you say lead chloride, you mean lead sche elite -- No, we fdtmd veiy little.coming ofi*. Dr BRIDGE: In the engine as well as the exhaust pipe itself?. . '---Yes. - s`^- q There were large accumulations there?--Yes; But that is not ordinarily removed; in the ordinary way you do not talce it'J* away; so that all that really would happen in an ordinary garage would Be the scrapings of the cylinder head aril the ^ orank case oil; except that the inside of the silencer may , Become coated. , q >1But that would Be the main couroe in. this case: cleaning out VA4& ^*WwA< woik' A 4.W N9X0i ------ L AAGfrVO UOVei Heard of that. 4i . . /. Ur BRIDGE! you hare said that the water was quite clear?-----Tee* as V q Did it remain very long?-----Yes: it remained/a minute quantity of lead chloride, q Hot much ^chloridet~ Oh, a fair amount, f q In an engine running slowly there is generally a trip? --*Yes,> if it was cold. q That would eontain most of the b&d petrol or lead bromide? iV- 4 As far as my experience goes it* would eontain t} s lead bromide. - q A good deal?-----Yes. Another difficulty arises in this way: that you have got this aqueous vapour coming down the exhaust pipe, passing through the system, which Is slowly charged V with the lead, and it is accumulating. You cannot make .Vv's-OSB&s;* definite statements as to what might happen. /| ;- v/ 1 Sir WnmWlLLBOX: When you say lead chloride, you mean lead ggheelite -- No, we found very littie.coming ofi. Dr BRIDGE: In the engine as well as the exhaust pipe itself?., . --------- Yes;- q There were large accumulations there?--Yes; but that is not ordinarily removed; in the ordinary way you do not take itl* away; so that all that really would happen in an ordinary >%. garage would be the scrapings of the cylinder head and the ./ crank case oil; except that the inside of the silencer may become coated. ,> ' ACt* q But that would be the main source in this case: cleaning out* the exhaust pipe? --- X do not say that would be the main source of risk: x think the ventilation would be the main t .point: 61 '.'-A&S KF 0018378 -viMfa; <*- "S' i m Mr Rowell fit I mean, from the point of visw of lead. ----- The cleaning? q Yag.-----men the crank case oil or the deposits on the nuteido of the crank cap, if there was a leading joint and if the nan were careless or' had a out- hand I tftinn that remains. 0. 'my?----- That is nor or less admitted. The dust, you naan?-----Tin, I am speaking of the actual ethyl patrol: as to tn cilencer dust and o on, I do not think there would ho a risk at all. 0 That is fine duet?-----Too, hut it is in flaK.se* 4 There would not "os very much dust. I am thinking of pisK where there would ha dust purely. I .am leaving out the question of lead - purely dust. ----- rsll, us for as my memory corves me, in taking down one silencer which had 219 grams deposit, that was rather duetv in parts, hut the hulk of it was heavy flakes, heavy oil. It was not near to you?----- !!->, hut there would be just f slight risk when you took th* thing down;; that might arise oy the attempt to get the silencer open. Q, That is an unusual thing? ----- Yes* CHAIHMAw: Thank you. (The witness withdrew). 0018379 62