Document JvvGzJNdj3bNMX69EEoK4Lnja

1 STATE OF MINNESOTA 2 Dj STAiCi CuURT 3 COUNTY OF CARLTON SIXTH JUDICIAL DISTRICT 7 PERSONAL INJURY/CARF.Y `i 5 Artr.ur A. Fr--nsa, b anu Helen J. Frehse, busbana anJ wif_. Plaintiffs, vs, ir.t nor Packing Company, ot ai| * i Dvf a re Ian vs . i volume ii xD o Telephonic deposition of CARL U. PSRNEiib, M.D., taken pursuant to Notice of Taking Deposition, anl t:ik-.n before Kirby A. Kennedy, a Notary Public in and for XU tha County of Hennepin, State of Minnesota, on the 15t"n day A. _ o ii-'ich 19Lv, fron Springfield, Missouri, commencing at 22 approximately i;JG o'clock p.m. 2 K: RbT A. KENNEDY x ASS9Cl A-';!C (612) 922-1955 1 APPEARANCES: 2 MICHAEL 3. POLK, ENQUIRE, of the Law Pirn of HERTOGS, FLUEGEL, S1E3EN, POLK, JONES & LaVERDIE.RU, 999 3 VJesivi-w Drive, Hastings, Minnesota 55033, appears--! for nnd on behalf of Plaintiff. 4 , ROBERT D. BROwNSGN, ESQUIRE, of the Lav; Firm 5 of 3T1CH, ANGELL, KREIDLER a MUTH, Suite 120, The Crossings, 250 SewOnci Avv.-nuo South, Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401, -b appeared for and on behalf of Defendant Con-wed Corporation. BRUCE JOKES, ESQUIRE, of the Lav; Firm of FAEG RE & BENSON, 2200 Norwest Center, 90 South Seventh; 6 Street, Minn ipoiib, Minnesota 55402-39001, appear'd for and on behalf of Defendants /Armstrong World Industries 9 ^Deiaware), Ino., GAP Corporation, Keene Corporation, National Gypsum Company, Owens-Corning Fibergias Corporation, Owens-Illinois, Inc., Turner & Tiewail PI.C, Union Carbiue Corporation and United States Gypsum Company. li uiLLlAM D. HARVARD, ESQUIRE, of the L^v; Firm 12 of BLAB 11JG Ai-IE, BURCH, GARRARD & BRYANT, PC, 440 College nveauu Worth, P.0. Bor. b32, Athens, Georgia 30503, appear *d 13 for anti on behalf of Defendant Union Carbide Corporation a no EtcjJbers of CCr. 14 ANTHONY J. LAURA, ESQUIRE, of the Lew Firm o' 1J KELLEY, DRYE 6 WARREN, 175 South Street, Morristown, Few Jersey 0/960, upp-.-ered for and on behalf of D<: Cent.lent Union lo Carbide Corpoiat ion. i.7 GREGORY TRUST, ESQUIRE, of the Law Firm of MILLER a WLARY, Suite 60b, Park National Bank Building, lo 5e53 Waye .to. Bouivv.ru, Minneapolis, Minnesota 554! 0, appeared for anu on behalf of Defendant A. Chesterton 19 Company. ROBERT E. DIEHL, ESQUIRE, of the Law Firm of MEAGHER, GEER, MARKHAM, ANDERSON, ADAMSON, FLASKAMP &. A 1 tJRDUiJ.xJ, 4200 , Jui ti foods Tower, 35 South South Sixth Street, Minneapolis, Minnesota 55402, appeared for and on 22 behalf of Dtfend..nt A.H. Bennett Company. 23 LISA R. MICALLEF, ESQUIRE, of the Law Firm GiLSDGKF and JACOBBERGER, 1150 Capiitnl Centre Plaza, 186 24 North V7abusha, Saint Paul,' Minnesota 55102, appeared for and on behalf of Defendant 17. R. Grace & Company. 25 KIRBY A. KENNEDY k ASSOCIATES (612) 322-1955 1 7- Gary E. S13HOP, ESQUIRE, of the Lnv? firm of MARK, rt7vLT2R, BURKART, WEATHERS & WALTER, 300 John Q. Hammons Parkwiy, Suite 600, Springfield, Missouri 65BC6, appeared for and on behalf of Defendant *W. R. Grace & J Com; ,,.ny 4 5 "6 x'HDLX.: 7 Direct Examination by l*r. P nrvard D Re e i" 03 s -Lxamination by Mr. Polk C- KuClOsS -Extiiur.jticn by fir. Brownscn 10 Cross-E xai'iinat ion by Hr. Thorns jo Pag? 178 Page 216 Peer **> ') J Pag e 2 56 i L Realiec t Examination by hr. Harvard 12 Reoross -Examination by h r. Polk Page 2 5 7 Page o tn -a 1- 1j ii Dean a ni Deposition Exhibit 47 marked 1 0 Dsrnehi Deposition Exhibit 43 marked Paq > 1n' a. -> . Page 204 x 6 D . l nan l L: -pot l L ion Exnibit 4 3 m.rked Pace , , k-' 11 la 13 ^J 2i 2e 2a 2 2 ,/ KIRBY A. KiiHHSDY * ASSOCIATES (612; 922-1055 1 "iR. HARVARDs This is t continuation of 2 the deposit ion of Dr. Carl Derne-hl which was begun on Mercy J 10, LOriO. I aOil! Harvard and with me is Anthony Loin. 4 We are her.; representing Union Carbide. Dr. Dernehl is 5 also present. N . are in bpringf itld, Missouri and ijso -6 present for W. R. Grace is -- 7 MR. BISHOP; Gary E. Bishop. j MR. HARVARD: And we are in Springfield, y Missouri, on Leiephorr. hookup. Dr. Dernehl, you wore 10 previously sworn in on March 10, 1985 last wcok when your xi -- dc-jjos.uon was initiated. Do you under stand th :> t you arc 12 still under oath? i ./ THE WITHESS: Yes, I do. x4 MR. HARVARD: Do you understand that J are to tail the truth in your st atoman*37 le THE WITNESS: Yes, I do. 74. MR. HARVARD; You understand this is Id continuation of that deposition. is that right? X ^ TitE WITNESS: Yes, I do. 20 MR. HARVARD: Does anyone have any 21 statements tney need to place on the record or things they 22 want to get out of the way before I go through what 2 j questions 1 inv. with the Doctor? 24 MR. BROWNGON: Well, this is Bob 2a a'own son. Just for the record, I want to say that even KIRBY A. KENNEDY t ASSOCIATE-! (ol2) 922-1955 1 tnouyn you are conducting direct -exarainat ion here today we 2 are not going to feel that that precludes us from culling j Dr. Dernehl as a witness at trial in this case as we may be 4 entitled to unacr the rules. 5 LR. JOxdS: That's understood. MR. HARVARD: Anyone else hive any 1 stutemen*. s they Wont to make for the record before 1 get o under way? J MR. POLK.: This is Hike Polk iO representing the Plaintiff. 1 have a question. My question is whether or not you intend or: using any of the 12 maiJted documents during your direct examination'' 1 R MR. HARVARD: 1 am not sure what you 14 mean by marked documents. There arc three documents I do inwcnu co snow to the Doctor during the course of the lo examination and copies of them are present with Bruce Jones 1 1 wnc asked to hevc them there because he thought everybody Id else was going to be at a that location. Those three, is 1 o everyone there where Bruce is other than those who are here 20 with me? 2x MR. JOJLJ: Do. 22 vAt this time a discussion was held off 23 the record.) 24 MR. HARVARD: Do you have n place whore 25 documents can be faxed to you? r.IRB/ A. KEUIJSDY i* AJS0C1ATD3 (612) 922-1955 1 MR. POLK: Yes, I do. 2 MR. HARVARD: Bruce, do you have the .J capacity to fax those three documents to him? 4 MR. JONES: VJe have indeed. 5 HR. HARVARD: Wi11 you please do that7 MR. JOKES: I will do that. MR. POLK: Hung on. o MR. HARVARD: 1 have a nuno-r of questions, Hike, that I can ask if we can perhaps save some 10 time if 1 go on and get the questions out of the way that * X don't make rof.r.nce to those documents and when you h-v> 1 received tne documents you can let us know if you want to * J take u tieok to hove an opportunity to review them. 14 MR. POLK: That's fine with mu, if Bruce 1 0 as cojilor tab..c- going out and foxing thorn down to n.'-> right 16 now. i will give him the number. She is coming in right X / now. 1. HR. HARVARD: i am happy to do who t you 19 ell want. If you all want to gat them before we start, we will co that. 21 MR. PoLK: That's riot necessary. Rill, 22 lx you don't mind why 1 don't 1 just interrupt you while I 2 J get the number here. Here she is. Fax number, Bruce, is x ** 6i2-4>7-27 32. a. 0 MR. JOLifiH; I will got llios' down to you KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612; 922-1935 1 directly. 2 AR. POLK: Tnank you. Go ahead. o MR. HARVARD: Anthony made a suggestion 4 chut I think is good. After 1 ask each question we will ' 5 jiuse briefly before 1 indicate to the Doctor to answer so -b that if anyone has objections to the question they can 7 place them on the record at that time because otherwise it cs might be confusing with everybody talking on the phono. Is y that acceptable to everyone' 10 11 DIRECT IIX AM I NA'T I Oil 12 BY MR. HARVARD: ij b. DOv-to at the e xposition last week you were 14 asked a number oi questions about your background with Jl t> Union Carbide, is the a right? lb A. Yes. i / 0. You wer c born on August Id, 1913, which m k lb you now 75 years old. Civ). 1 txct? i V A. Yes. 2u j. Doctor, wii.it year did you begin with Union 21 Car oide? 22 A. 1947. 2 j Q. I want to very briefly cover again what your 24 positions ware with Union Carbide for purposes of this portion of the deposition. ttfaen you began with Union KIRBY A. KENNEDY & AdiBDC!ACER (612) 922-1955 1 Car bid.; you were the medical director of Union C-rrbit. e' s 2 Texas City chemical plant, correct7 A. Thu t' a r iyht. 4 u. Jn j.955 you moved into a position as assistant 4 5 medical director with respect tc their chemical plant and ~6 then moved to dew York, is that correct7 1 h. Tnat's cor rect. ii d. Then, in Idol you bec-uaedirector oftoxicology 9 for that company, finally in 1305 becoming associate cox par a t v medical director, is that correct7 il a. That's correct. 12 Q. And your background in terms of your mod roe 1 i 3 training had been in the area of occupational medicine, ih ilyht ? 15 A. that's right. iu w. You do not claim today to bean expert cn such 17 issues as asbestos fiber types, epidemiology or the ideology of asocstos disease, cic you? 19 MR. POLK: I will object to the form of 2'J the question as being leading. This is Mike Polk making 21 trial objection. MR. BROV.'KSOM: 1 also object to the 23 question as multiple. LY MR. HAV.iRD: _ Q. Doctor, tell us whether or not you claim to be K1R3Y A. KEWN2DY & ASSOCIATES v 612 > 922-1355 1 an export on asbestos fiber types^ 2 A. No, I do not. si. Doctor, pl.ise toll us whether or not you 4 clair.. to be an expert today on epidemiology? 5 A. bo, I do not. -~6 0. Doctor, please tell us today whether or not t you claim to be an expert on the subject e>f the ideology of 8 asuestos uiseasas? y A. 1 wouldn* t say that I an :>n expert but I hive 10 the- knowledge thuc would be expected of any individual who i i is Loc.rd ear a i find ) n occupational medicine. 12 Q. Doctor, would you toll us whether or not to !so:r. degree all of a nos a subjects that 1 just questioned 14 you about worn in fact involved in your studies nd in you': i b wor x of oa a up a t i on a 1 me dici n ? IvJ a. 1'es, they wer e. - i U. Doctor, when you worked for Union Carbide ICS Corporation, approximately how many marketable chemicals 1 y it-11 under your responsibility when you were assistant or 20 director of toxicology, assistant medical director and 21 associate corporate medical director? 22 A. Somewhere in excess of 700. 2 J Q. At wliat point in time, if you recall, did 24 Union Carbide- Corporation begin issuing toxicological or toxicology reports to thc-ir customers? KIKliY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES 1612) 922-1955 1 A. In 19 5 6 2 Q. On wnich of the marketable chenioals for which 3 you wore responsible were such reports typically issued'-' 4 A. initially they were issued on large voiun t 5 chemicals that were sola in tonnage lots and subsequently -6 tin-t ws expanded to cover the great majority of chord cal s 7 that Union Carbide sold. d 0. V/ben Union Carbide prepared toxicolovjy reports 9 on thir marketable chemicals to whom, if you know, were it these reports distributed? 11 A. Tuey wore distributed to anybody that askew 12 for tnem. They wore distributed to various governmental li agencies in the Uni tad States as well as overseas. They 14 were -- essentially that's it. 15 Q. With respect to these toxicology reports, 11 Doctor, which part of the- Union Car bid _ Corporation or 17 which division of Union Carbide Corporation was typically tno group that you would expect to distribute those reports 19 if there was such a group? A. initially the concept -was that these ware to 21 be in the hands of sales people who would distribute the 22 reports to customers at the time of the sales visit. Due 23 to certain problems in keeping the supply updated and in 24 sales offices, it was eventually set up that they were ^5 distributed from our office to whoever the sales people REY A. KDNIILDY & ASSOCIATE (612) 922-1955 1 aSKed us to senu them to or to any customer who voluntarily 2 wrote to us and requested a copy. Ci it. Doctor, once a toxicology report had been 4 prepared on a particular chemical marketed by Union Carbide 5 Corporation, did it always remain in that form as initially drafted and submitted? 7 A. No, it did not. There were revisions that 8 were made as new knowledge came to hand. 9 U- As medical or as assistant medical director 10 for Union Carbide, then director of toxicology, and then il associate corporate medical director, what efforts did you 12 make to keep up to date with medical scientific literature i j on the chemicals that were being marketed by Union Carbide 14 Corporation? 1 5 A. we received i number of journals that arc 16 published on occupational medicine, industrial hygiene aid 1 7 cn toxicology. be attended, national mootings, symposia anti ib such to try to Keep up to date. i 9 w. '.Vara some of those discussed last weak at the 20 deposition, some of the different publications which you 2 i received and symposia attended by you and ethers m your 22 department? 26 A. Y33. 24 J. Were there others, do you believe, in add.it ion 25 to those symposia, which members of the toxicology -- KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 i i:n:ir.c>;rs of Union Carbide concern ed with toxicology ray also 2 have attended but which you do not now remember by nar.fi' Jk A. There wore probably a number of them that I 4 cannot now recall. 1 can recall that one that I die no' 4 5 sir nt ion be lots, were soma symposia on vinyl chloric?'? th >t va -6 were very much interested in. 7 U. Doctor, I Wuit to shift gears for a movc-twrt 8 now and talk to you about Caliciri a asbestos. Do you r ecognizt* tin; name Caiidria? 10 A. Yes, I do. 1 4. 4. Q. And wh:\'_ about that name do you recall, wait 12 is it' J. w>` /V. it was a trade name for a snort fiber ashestc; 14 mined by Union Carbide at King City and also processed at x 5 King City. 1 o Q. Is King City in California, Dor tor? 17 A. Yes, it is. a. O W !us this area in which it was miner? also 19 sometimes referred to as the Coaling* deposit? 20 A. Yes, ic. is. 21 Q Of what type fiber vies the Ca.lr idi n asbi-stoi 22 from the Coalinga deposit? 2 j A. It was a nigh purity short fiber chrysolite 2-t type. Z j 2. _ is tii. a j ther a something about -- let mo KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (Ux2) 922-1955 1 rephrase the question. You iaent ioned two qualities, among 2 others, in your description, short fiber and high purity. w What considerations did the short fiber nature of the 4 Caiidria asbestos present from your perspective when Union 5 Carbide begin marketing that product, if you understand my -6 queston? / A. The great majority of asbestos mined and used o m the United dtates, as a matter of fact about 90 percent 9 of it, was ... long fiber chrysoti 3 e type wh i ch has its iU origin primarily from large mines in Canada but also from a i i naiiiDer of mines in the United hiatus. The Coalings fiber 12 was unique because of tine fact that it was a short fiber type, which was relatively new at the time it was 14 introduced. id y. Doctor, would you describe for us how you 16 would distinguish in your mind between a short fiber ciuysotilc asbestos and a long fiber chrysotilo asbestos in <j terms of the length of those fibers'3 19 A. Roughly speaking, when you speak of lone; fiber 20 asbestos you are talking about asbestos whicli has the very 21 great majority of its fibers greater than five microns in 22 iength and a great many of them more than ten microns in 2a length. 24 Li* bo you recall what the average length -was of 25 the fibres found in the Coalingn deposit which Union DARBY A. KEUMLDY L ASSOCIATE.! (612) 922-1955 Curbiae was marketing? A. I do not recall what the average size was but I know that most of it was under five microns in length. w. You mentioned a second consideration or a 5 second quality that was unique about Calidria when you said --6 nigh purity. Would you describe to us what you mean by V nrgli parity? ci A. The great majority of the long fiber asbestos 9 that was mined would contain foreign substances of various 10 types that tended to be hard to form solid particulates in 11 trie asbestos mixture. The Calidria asbestos or the 12 do.ilxnga asbestos, ret me say, was a deposit that you would X J say would bo almost pure asbestos which contained very very i. X quantities of materials other than asbestos. 15 bo you recall what type of impurities were j particularly associated with cither Canadian chrysotile l 7 asbestos or with chrysotile asbestos other than that found 1 O in the Coaiinga deposit? 19 A. Wo, I am sorry, I don't know that. x u Q. Doctor, at your previous deposition you went 21 through a number of questions and discussed at length what 22 you recall from different points in time about what was 23 learned with respect to asbestos and what you knew about 2 potential health conditions arising from exposure to 25 asbestos over your career, is tnat right? hi ROY A. KENNEDY &. ASSOCIATE3 (612) 922-1955 TTo 1 A. I believe thhaatt'ss 'correct. 2 Q. I wanted to ask you some questions now in that sauvc regard. From your earlier deposition or the nnr 1 ? or 4 part of this deposition do you recall telling us that whip 5 you began with Union Carbide in 1947 you knew, because yon nah learned m your medical school studies, that asbestos 7 COUld CaUs.i asbestos is'1 b A. That's correct. y Q. Uas that distinguished as to any particular 10 type fiber which could cause asbestosis7 *i A At that time I don't believe that they Wire 12 talking m terms or types of a fiber. They were talk in? X J generally asbestos as it was used in insulation activities 14 and in asbestos mining. L 3 0. Doctor, do you recall when it was you learned 16 o an association between asbestos generally and lung i 7 cancer i 1 c> My recollection is it was in the late 'fhn. 19 Q. Doctor, do you recall or let me ask the zd question differently. Ple-osc explain to us what you mean 2l when you say an association between asbestos and lung 22 Cancel and now if at ail that may be different from a 23 C cl 3 cl 1 1G Itrtionship between asbestos and lung canc ;rr> 24 A. VIell, basically when we talk about an 25 association we are talking about a group of people who nr KijkiJY A. Kr.NUUDY 6 AddGCIATDD (o 12 ) 922-1955 1 working with a material and who have a certain incid-. neo of pnysical abnormalities or disease and the association suggests that this disease -- the presence of this disease 4 may be associated with the exposure at work. This is 5 somewant different from a proved condition in which it is --6 demonstrated not only that there is an association but you / can eliminate other sources of causation of a disease and a you can demonstrate by animal experinentation that the 9 disease is in fact caused by exposure to the substance. id Q. Doctor, at the point in time when you remember X x huvinc. learned of an association between asbestos and lung 12 cancer, did you at that time believe that the disease jj. asbestosis would not develop in an individual who was x4 exposed to asbestos below the threshold limit value- in his 1 5 working lifetime? lu A. Time is correct. i. / W- At the time you learned of an association la between asbestos ana lung cancer did you learn that the 19 association was between exposure to asbestos and lung 20 cancel or was it exposure tc asbestos in large enough doses zi that would produce asbestosis? 22 A. At the time that we first learned about this 23 chtetc was -- it was believed that there had to be a 24 atmospheric concentration sufficient to produce the diseas-"2 5 asbestosis before you could have any evidence of cancer. KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1355 LOO 1 Q. Doctor, in that regard, do you recall 2 specifically in the 1960s what the threshold limit va1u ^ 5 was for asbestos exposuri:? 4 MR. POLK: I will object to the form of 5 the question as being vague. The 1900s covers a 10-y or -6 period of time. 7 MR. HAVARD: 1 will rev/orcl the question. 8 LY MR. liAVARD: V U. Dot tor, do you recall <?t any time in the '60s 10 what trie thresnoid limit value may have been for asbestos II oust exposure? 12 A. There wore several different levels which were i j active ciui ing the period from about 1960 on up. Initially 14 my recoil, notion is that there Wjs a limit of ten fibers in lb excess of ten microns in length per cubic foot of air. 16 Tins in tne early 160s was reduced to five fibers per cubic 17 foot in excess of ten microns in length. And in the late '60s lo this '.ns again reduced to two fibers per cubic foot in 19 excess of ten microns in length. U. Doctor, arc you certain about, any of those 21 numbers? Are you confident in your own mind that those ar * 22 correct? 23 l-iR. POLK: 1 will object to the forrt of 24 tiie question as being leading. 25 MR. DROWN8Gil: It's leading and also KIRuY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 vaguo. MR. POLK: That's correct. I will join in that objection also. . 4 3Y MR. HARVARD: 5 0. Answer the question if you can, Doctor. It -6 you can't, 1 will move on. 7 A. Those figures are itry best recollection, i> y. In any event, you do recall that at some point l i in time there were changes in those figures9 i.0 A. Absolutely. Q. Doctor, with respect to the length of fin r 12 that you recall being associated with the threshold limit lJ value measurements, how does the Calidrie asbestos fiber 14 length match up with them? 15 A. The Calridiu fiber asbestos -- the Celridia 16 fiber length was below th ten microns length of fiber j. 7 specified _n the threshold limit value. lo y. Doctor, what if anything did that suggest to 1 7 you about what the people who set those threshold limit 20 Value standards considered about these shorter fiber 2 1 asbestos V 22 HR. POLK: Object to the question on th? 23 grounds of hearsay and lacks foundation. 24 MR. BROVvNdOH: I further object to the 25 question on the ground that Mr. Harvard earlier iri his KIRBY A. KdRHSDY & ASSOCIATES {612) 922-1955 1 direct examination attempted to disqualify Dr. Dernehl as 2 an expert in fiber type and, therefore, he is disqualified j from answering this question. 4 BY MK. hAVARD: 5 Q. Answer if you can. Doctor. '6 A. To us, the fact that the fibers were less than / ten microns in length suggested that they wore not going to b be particularly active in the reduction of fibrogenic 9 disease since the general opinion held at that time was 10 that the active fibers in producing the disease wore trios ii ten microns ana lower in length. 12 U. Doctor, when you say "to us," to whom were you i J ieicrringv 14 A. To us i am referring, I think, to the majority 15 of physicians in occupational medicine and to the people in I o tiie meeticel department at Union Carbide. 17 Q. Doctor, at the time you first learned of ft association between asbestos and lung cancer through the 19 medical literature, were you aware of any demonstrated 20 causal relationship between the short fibered Calidr la 2jl asbestos and lung cancer? 22 A. i was not. 23 Q. Doctor, at the earlier portion of this 24 deposition you told us that m about 1967 you believe there 13 was growing evidence of an association between asbestos and A1ABY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 92/-1955 1 a modical condition colled mesothelioma. Do you recall 2 that testimony? a f\ . Yes. 4 0. Ccui yourecall -- let me ask the question 5 differently. At tnis point in time were you aware of cnv -6 evidence demonstrating a causal relationship between the 7 short fiber Cuiidria asbestos ana mesothelioma'5 A. 1 was iict aware of any such relations!-ip. 9 Q. I bi-iieveyou further testified. Doctor, that IV it was m tiic early '70s when you began to seek 11 epidemiological studies reflecting findings with respect to 12 mesothelioma. Do you recall that testimony7 x i A. Yes. 14 y. Do you recall who tin? r the studies of which you x t. be cane iw-ure in the late ' 60s and early ' 70s primarily i o ctcv.lt witii one particular fiber type ns opposed to ano1: h r 17 fiber type? ij A. Thw great majority of studies that were don Is# ut that time were done with -- were done on people who were exposed to the long fiber type asbestos which was in common 21 use in the United states. 22 y. You were aware of no causal relationship 23 established between the short fiber Cuiidria asbestos and 2 -1 in._30tl.eiiouu at that point in time, were you7 25 AR. POLK: Object to the form of the KIRBY A. KENNEDY U ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 I'J/. 1 question as being leading. 'R BROWMSOIi: 1 join in the objection. 3 M R. HA RVAR.O: 1 will r eph rase it. 4 BY MR. HARVARD: 5 Doctor, in 19b7 and in the 1970s when you -6 began seeing epidemiological studies, were you aware -- / MR. HAVARD: 1 am having troubl ? making this one leg.;!, guys. Give me a minute. MR. POLK: I undeist:;na t'h-it. iU 3Y MR. HARVARD: 11 Q. Doctor, pressc tell us what your reco'iection 12 was from tne period of time 1967 to the early 1970s p.s to J Whether a causal relationship had bt en established between 14 shore fiber Caiidrie asbestos and mesothelioma? 1 5 A. I knew of no evidence of any type that there lb hue been any work done with mesothelioma resulting from i 7 exposure to short fiber asbestos. io a. Wore you aware of evidence which; had begun to is oemonsczate a relationship between other long fiber 20 asbestos and mesothelioma? 21 7i. Any relationship that had been demonstrated 22 between mesothelioma and exposure to asbestos was with long 2 i fiber material. 24 Q. Doctor, are you familiar with the fiber type called erociaolite? ;\iRDY a. RdMWsDY L ASSOC! 1 ATbS (0.12/ 322-1955 1 A.. Not really. 2 U Ate you familiar with the fiber type called amosite? 4 A. Not. really. 5 0* Doctor, do you have an opinion, based on the medical literature during that period of tin;;, 1967 through the early 1970s, as to whether any association had been b established between mesothelioma and any causative agents 6 otner than asbestos, if you can answer the question'' 10 A. In the period of time that you cover tl::: i -L answer would be no. C. Do you know if in your subsequent studies and I J your subsequent -- let me rephrase the question. Doctor, 14 do you currently have an opinion, based on what you learned 15 until the time you left as associate medical director u lb Union Carbide, as to whether anything other than asbestos i 7 causes mesothelioma? 1 6 A. There have been cases of mesothelioma reported 19 in individuals exposed to vinyl chloride. 2 J U Are there also oases of mesothelioma that you 21 have seen m the medical or scientific literature where 22 there is no known causative agent? 23 MR. POLK: I will object to the form of 24 the question as being loading and very suggestive. 25 MR. BROWNSOU: I join in that objection. KIaBY a. KENNEDY f ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 1 BY MR. HARVARD: W. Answer it if you can, Doctor. 3 A. The early history of rr.esotnelioma among 4 pathologists was that it was a form of cancer of unknown 5 ideciogy and of rare occurrence. --6 C. Doctor, are you aware of any epiiociological 7 data establishing a caus.il relationship between the short 3 fiber chrysetile such .as Culidria and mesothelioma? y A. I have not seen any. lu w. Doctor, do we know exactly how lung canr?r is li caused? 12 A. No, we do not. 13 w Dc we know today, based on what you ivve 14 learned from the medical and scientific literature, exactly 13 how jnesotheliGni_ is caused? 1 6 A. ive do not know that either. il Q. In the earlier portion of this deposition, 1 d Doctor, you were asked some questions with respect to chest iy X-rays which were taken at King City, California, of ihon 2>J Union C^roide employees. Do ycu recall bring asked 21 questions in that regard? 22 A. Yes, I do. 23 C'. Would you explain to us for what purpos" chest. 24 X-rays were taken of new employees coming to work for Uni cm i 3 Carbide- at the King City facility where Celidiia asbestos 1 KIRBY A. KrinbEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1935 1 was mined and milled' 2 A. Union Carbide had a general policy that any J new employee one of the things that was done in his 4 pie-erplcyraent examination ws a chusc X-ray in order to 5 determine that there was no evidence of active lung diseas, -6 m this prospective employee. Subsequently, these X-rays 7 were repeated to make sure that the work the individual, was uoing did not produce any evidence of disease. And in the y ease of tne asbestos workers where it was known that i j exposure to asbestos might result in the development of the disease asoastosis, it was particularly important that we 12 lake these X-rays to make sure that we were not being 13 suckered into a position where we felt that there was no ^ 4 hazard where, as a matter of fact, that' might have been. 15 Q. Doctor, at that point in time when Union Carbide began mining and milling asbestos at the King City 17 facility, lid you have an opinion as to whether the short fiberea nature of the Cnlidria asbestos might cause iy asbestosis? BO A. Based on current -- based on knowledge at that 21 time trio opinion was that it probably would not do so but 22 mat it would bo very prudent to keep an open mind and to 23 take tne X-rays and find out whether or not it did or did 24 no t. 25 0. Dio Union Carbide continue to follow those KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATE! 1612; 922-1955 196 1 employf.es with chest X-rays? 2 A. Yes, they did. 2 Q. Doctor, ciid you know at the time you retired 4 from Union Carbide m 1979 whether or not any of the 5 employees who 'Were monitored at the King City facility had "6 been found through the monitoring program to have developed 7 any asbestos related rung diseases? 8 A. I do not know of any such cases. C. Doctor, you were also asked at the previous 10 deposition or the previous part of this apposition whether il or aoout some -- let me start this question over. At the 12 previous portion of this deposition you ware asked about a 13 study by Dr. Langur dealing with Caiidria asbestos. Do 14 you recall being asked about that7 1 5 7v. Yes, i do. 16 Q. Do you recall the point being mads that these 17 were or that his study was based on samples of Calidrin 1 o asbestos which he had obtained from Union Carbide'3 19 . I understood that to be the case. 2 J U. Doctor, was it your experience t Union 21 Carbide that you would sometimes get requests from 22 individuals who were interested in pursuing medical cr 23 scientific research samples of marketable chemicals to test 2~x or to study? _ 2 a A. Yes, we did receive those requests. KIRBY A. K&USICDY U ASSOCIATES v 612) 922-1955 i Q. Wh.;t was the policy at Union Carbide, stat 'd 2 or unstated, with respect to handling such requests? j A. A request of that type would come in. VI-' 4 would ask for a protocol of the proposed study. And after 5 review with the product managers a decision would be "-to reached as to wnetner or not to grant the request for the / substance. o 2. Doctor, are you aware of any requests for 9 marketable chemicals which came to your attention whicn 10 Union Carbide refused to provide the researchers with il samples for quantities of the marketable chemicals they 12 were requesting' 13 A. 1 do not recall any. 14 d. Doctor, we earlier discussed a study watch was 13 accomplished at the Mellon Institute in Pittsburgh, i o Pennsylvania, regarding -- ret me- stop right here. 17 MR. HARVARD: Hava you got your copies' 1 c. MR. PCDK: Yes, I do. 19 MR. HARVARD: Off the record. 20 vAt this time a discussion was held off 21 tile record.) 22 Di MR. HARVARD: 23 Q. Doctor, I am fixing to show you what I am 24 asking the' Court Reporter to mark as Union Carbide 20 Corporation Exhibit A, and it is entitled "Calidria K1R.BY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATE? (012) 922-1955 1 Asbestos-Resin Grade RG 244, Tracheal Insufflation of Pat 2 oun^s with Interpretation of Pathology after 30, 60, 00 -md i iau days." Can I ask you, please, to take a look at that 4 document' (At this time DERKEUL Deposition Exhibit ~~b 47 was marked for identification by thr V Court Reporter.) a BY MR. HARVARD: 9 Q. Doctor, have you had an opportunity to look 10 now at Exhibit 47 to this exposition? 11 a. Yen, j. have. 12 o. and looking at it, what does it appear to be7 A. Well, it's a report on a study which was made 14 m which Calridia asbestos fibers were suspended in saline lb solution ana were introduced into the lungs of rets at: 16 various concentrations. The condition at various times. 17 The concentration was the same. I take that back. Two 13 concentirtions 1 mi and i ml amounts into the lungs through iy the trachea. _/ Q. Doctor, what was one of the purposes or what 21 were the purposes of this study, if you can recall'7' 22 MR. POLK: I will object to the form, of 23 the question as being compound. Z4 MR. HARVARD: Sure. I will rephrase the 25 question. KIRBY A. KLHMEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 1 BY MR. HAVARD: 4* Q. Doctor, do you recall what the purposes of 3 this study weft? 4 A. The purpose was to find out the type and the 5 decree of effects of the asbestos on the lungs of rats. w. Doctor, does this appear to be a copy of 7 study which was commissioned by Union Carbide Corporation at the Mellon institute? 9 A. Yes, it would be. 10 0. homing reviewcu that document at my request, ll uo you recog rare it? J.2 A. it is one i have seen before. 1 3 0. Doctor, with respect to your prior testimony 14 at the i^st deposition or th._ first part of this deposition 15 you were ashed wacthcr a -- let me* gat a July 1066 report .. 6 iron the Mellon Institute which is the only study which 17 Union Carbide had sponsored and had conducted at the -h i Ion 1 6 institute. As you review this document, which has been 19 marled as Exhibit 47 to this deposition, do you now recall I'j this study also .having been conducted at the Mellon 21 Institute at Union Carbide's request? 2 2 A. Yes, I do. 2 3 MR. POLK: Objected to as leading. 1 24 will move to have tue answer striken. . r MR. BROWNSOil: Same objection. KIRBY A. KENNEDY & .ASSOCIATE (612) 922-1955 200 1 BY MR. HARVARD: 2 U. Doctor, do you recall who requested that the 3 .study that's reflected as Exhibit 47 be done7 4 h. 1 do not know vino requested it. I don't know. 5 Q. Do you recall whether or not that was a study --o requested by union Carbide to be accoiaplished? 7 A. It would have to be from Union Carbide. w. Doctor, let me rephrase the question. Doctor, 9 aiu either this study or the 196b study, which you reviewed 10 in your prior deposition, deal with, address, or study the 11 question of whether cancer or r.esotnolioma tuners develop x2 in these animals? 13 A. Neither study was involved in that. 14 b. Doctor, with respect to Exhibit number 47, 13 have you had an opportunity to review that exhibit' lb A. Yes, I nave. 1 7 Q. -Ana did you and I i*cview it prior to your 13 deposition today? 19 A. Vile looked at it this morning. 20 C. With respect to any conclusions which were 21 leached in tnis study. Doctor, what did they tell you ns a 22 Union Carbide medical personnel about the relationship 23 between threshold limit value and the Calridia asbestos, if 24 anything? 2b A. In essence the results of the study which KIRBY a. KillhJEDY L ASSOCIATE;! (612) 922-1933 TT 1 (remonstrated the dtveiopment of ibrotic nodules witfi in the 2 lung -- 1 am gutting my sentence confused. Anyway, the j study suggested that it was -- that the material could 4 produce fibrotic tumors in the lung and, therefore, it was 5 important that the dust concentrations in the air t- kept ~6 tt a low level below the threshold or at or below the 7 thx'esnold limit value. b Q. Doctor, we have mentioned that tern threshold 9 limit Vuiuc a couple of times today as well as in the previous deposition. without respect to whatever dose lx level there was in a threshold limit value, could you x 2 explain to us generally what a threshold limit value is or 1j was? i4 A. The threshold limit value is a concentration 15 of a substance established by -- it was a concentrit ion of x 6 xx substance in air to which an individual could be exposed 17 eight hours a day, five cays a week for a working lifetime, 18 without significant harm and this concentration was 19 established by a group known as the American Conference of 20 Governmental Industrial Hygienists. 21 Q. Doctor, at some point in time cert-in of the 22 Caiidria asbestos products were marketed in a pelletized 2b form, is that correct? 2-i A. I believe so. 25 t>. Do you know who made the decision to market KIRBY A. KHKNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612; 922-1955 202 1 certain forms of the Culridia products in a pelletised form,7 2 A. 1 pic-su.se the C^lridia marketing pe.opl*.*. 2 C. Do you recall if you were involved at all in 4 that decision? 5 A. 1 was not involved in it. -6 C/. Do you recall what the purposes were or did 7 you ever learn wnut the purposes were in pelletising the 8 Calrrdra asbestos or marketing it in a pellet form as 7) opposed to a raw fiber form? 1U MR. POLK: Object to the form of the 11 question. Bill. There is three parts to that question, x 2 therefore, it's compound and 1 object and ask you to 1 o rephrase it. Also lacks foundation. 14 MR. HARVARD: Be happy to. 18 BY r:K. HARVARD: 1 o D. Do-tor, did you nave a personal knowledge ns 17 to why Cairidiei asbestos was marketed in a pelletised fori::, -U if it was? 1 ^ A. It was marketed in a pelletized form for the 20 purpose of reducing dusting. 2i Q. Would you explain to to us briefly what you 22 mean by the problem of duscing? 2 J A. Weil, when you take a loose fibrous material 24 in let's say a shipping bag, in the event of bag breakage 28 or when the material -- when the bug was opened for use, KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATED (ol2) 922-1958 1 2 '4 5 -~G 7 6 10 1r 12 > ' 14 15 lb 17 ib 19 20 21 22 23 24 ZD large numbers of blue fibers -- loose fibers from the unpeiiotized material could readily escape to the air. Once the notarial was pelletized then trie amount of free loose material available for escape was sharply reduced and, therefore, the probability of severe dusting was markedly reduced. 0. Doctor, did pelletizing absolutely remove any possibility of dust being generated by the use of pelletized Calridia asbestos' A. It did not remove it. It just reduced the probability chit high concentrations of dust would be for tied. Q. Doctor, I would now like to show you a document wmen 1 will ask the Court Reporter to mark as Exhibit dumber 4b to this deposition. At the top of the document, it's a two page document, at the top it states "Caiiuria Asbestos" and then typed in all caps underneath it underlinea it states "Asbestos Toxicology Report." On Page 2 of that document in the lower left-hand side appears me date 5-3-69. 1 state that only for purposes of identification. Would you please take a look at the document? (At this time DEREEIIL Deposition Exhibit 48 was marked for identification_by the Court Reporter.) KIRBY A. KEI1KEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 20 r A. I havi' seen the document. Q. Did you and I review that two page document V1 prior to the continuation of your deposition this afternoon. 4 Doctor? 5 A. Yes, we did. -6 Q. Do you nave or let me asH the question / differently. Vvho at Union Carbide was responsible for 8 drafting toxicology reports on the marketable chemicals J distributed by Union Carbide? iu A. basically I prepared the great majority of tneiu. Dometlaics Dr. Lane was involved, this was on.,- in 12 which ne was more active than I was. 1 J Q. das Dr. Lone more active than you in the 14 prepur ition of toxicology reports dealing with the Colridio 8j. a? 1 6 A. At the date of this document, which wjs 1069, 17 y (i 3 $ 110 W cl 3 18 . Do you recall whether this Asbestos Toxicology 18 Report, tnat's been marked as Exhibit 48, is one that was au drafted personally by you or whether it was drafted 21 personally by Dr. Lane, if you know? 22 A. I believe it was drafted personally by Dr. 2j Lane with consultation on my part. a** *i. Would you explain to us for what_purpesas the 2j asbestos toxicology reports were prepared^ hiRj2Y A. KE.JdEDY U ASSOCIATES (612} 022-1955 1 A. They wore prepared for transmission to 2 customers or to users of Calridia asbestos to ac?vi so them j of the hazards associated with its use. 4 Q. You said hazards associated with the use.'-' 5 A. Right. J. Doctor, with respect to that, in the ash stos 7 toxicology reports, did you and Dr. Lane report only those b findings which you had observed in the medical and y scientific literature which established causal 10 relationships between asbestos and disease processes or did li you induce other information; for exarapic; associations 12 which had been noted in the literature? x J a. w'e included the known and proved types of 14 adverse reactions to the matt rial and in some instances wo 15 indicated that un-re were some suggested associations not x D yet proved which were worthy of consideration. 1? a. I would like to bra w your attention to th i lb d I c. Cj i ci .-i ) ci o the bottom of P-. ce 1 of B xhibit 4b and - s'; IS to took at it. Doctor. 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Dots that reflect information ofthe type tbit 22 Union Carbide knew it says asbestos toxicology reports 2j would provide to customers? 24 A. Yes, it docs. 2. i/ d. Doctor, why 'would asbestostoxicology reports KIRBY A. KEwKEDY L ASSOCIATES V 612) 022-1955 2U0 1 be provided to the marketing department or marketing 2 personnel at Onion Carbide Corporation? 3 HR. POLK: i am just going to note- an 4 objection acre on lack of foundation. Go ahead, Doctor. 5 HR. 3R0VJH30LI: Same objection. ~-6 . HR. HARVARD: I would be happy to lav 7 the foundation. c! BY MR. HARVARD: 9 0. Doctor, do you recall at the first portion of 10 this deposition when you were asked about purposes for 11 preparation of the Asbestos Toxicology Report to which you 12 responaed one of the purposes was to provide it to X 3 marketing people who required it? Do you recall having 14 mace that statement? X\ O` A. Y e s. io w. Who either required or requested it'? 17 A. The marketing department. 1 d o. Why would the toxicology reports be piovided 13 to suen marketing people? 20 A. The market ing people used thsir- in their 21 u ealings with the potential customers for the product. 22 Q. Was it your experience at Union Carbide that 23 when you prepared coxicology reports for different 24 marketable cnoinicals that one of the primary distribution 25 systeras for those toxicology reports was through the- KIRBY A. KENWEDY & ASSOCIATED (612) 322-1955 1 marketing departrcent? 2 A. Til':- marketing department was involved. I an 3 not sure that they were the primary source of distribution. 4 More frequently the marketing department or the sales 5 organization would advise the customer that such reports ~--o w--re available and ask our department to forward a copy to 7 the proposed customer or to the customer himself. o C. Doctor, did you or people in the medical 9 department of Union Carbide ever receive direct requests 10 for toxicology reports on marketable chemicals'* li A. yes, we did. 12 0. From w:mt sources did you receive such 0. 5 requeues, what types of people or organizations? 14 h. Well, we would receiverequests fromcustomers, 15 from governmental agencies, from universities, from individuals who felt they had a need for such information. 17 C<. When you received such a request would you 1 o proviue tne person requesting it with those reports, if 19 such a reported been developed? 20 A. Yes, wo would, 21 q. Are you -- 22 A. As a matter of fact, if such areport hud not 23 Loon developed we would frequently go ahead and develop one 24 in response to the request. _ 25 q. Are you aware of Union Carbide or -- Doctor, K1R3Y A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATED {612} 922-1955 20o i. are you aware if U:uon Carbide ever refus'd to provide 2 anyone with a toxicology report on one of their marketable j enemiesIs on request? 4 h. Uo, 1 am not aware of any. 5 D. oo you re tie :u be r exactly how many of the -6 marketable cnomicais, which fell under your perview, June 7 such toxicology reports prepared on them'5 b A. I really can't remember the exact number but 3 know the iast time 1 counted it was 500. 10 Q. If l can have a minute to look through my ll notes for a second. 12 Doctor, let me now show you what 1 will ask 13 chc Court Reporter now to mark as Defendant's Exhibit 49, 14 whicn is appears to be a photocopy of a document which 13 states at the top "Union Carbide Internal Correspondence, j. 6 hare'll 21, 1970. Subject: Toxicity of Calidria Asb's+os", 17 and bears a typed name of "C. U. Dernehl, M.D., Associate L O iiec.icax Director", and has some writing above that iy signature line. Do you have the document before you now 20 A. Yes, 1 do. 21 w Have you had an opportunity to review thet 22 document? 2 3 a. Yes, 1 nave. 24 (At this time; DERNEHL Deposition_ Exhibi t 2 5 49 was market: for identification by the KIRBY A. KhKhEDY & AabOCIATCD (012j 922-1955 Uv 1 Court Reporter.) 2 BY MR. HARVARD: i Q. Is that a document that you and 1 reviewed 4 prior to your deposition here today? 5 A. Yes, we did. ~6 Q. Doctor, is the signature, which appears over 7 the typed signature line for C. U. Dernehl a signature U ./hioh is familiar to you? y A. It's my signature. 10 w Do you recall having written this letter? 11 MR. POLK: Lot n.e interrupt, if I nay. ^2 Tins is Mike Polk. i 3 MR. HARVARD: 1 Know the voice, Mike. 14 MR. POLK: I know you don't want to heal i 5 ths voice, bat I appreciate the fact that you know it. My 16 copy that I have does not bear a signature. Bill. 17 MR. JONES: The copy that I hr/e here Id does not Lour the signature. 9 MR. POLK: I find that somewhat 20 interesting. Maybe you could cover that with the Doctor. 21 MR. HARVARD: 1 will. I suspect I know 22 tiie answer Lo that, but 1 have a copy here that also 23 doesn't have a signature and one that does. 24 BY MR. HARVARD: _ 25 Q. Doctor, do you recognize that document7 KIRBY A. KENNEDY - ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 ! 10 A. Apparently a letter that I wrote to a Mr. C 2 E. Martin. 3 Q. Do you remember having written that letter? 4 i am afraid I don't remember writing it, no. 5 Q. Have you reviewed the information which is -6 contained in that letter or that internal correspondence'' 7 A. Yes, I `nave. o o Does that reflect what information was !> available to you and is it -- let me ask the question 10 or f f eifcivcly. Doctor, does this memoranda reflect some of 11 the attitude s which you understood and held with respect to 12 toxicity of. Calriuia asbestos during this period of time, 1 a enc- period of time referring to March 21, 19707 14 MR. POLK: Object to the question as i 'j lacking louneetion. It calls for speculation, and a 1 sc it lo calls for hearsay. i 7 MR. BRQWU30I7: I join in that. 13 LY MR. HARVARD: 1 9 Q. Have you had an opportunity to read through 20 the latter. Doctor? 21 A. Yes, I have. 22 0. Docs this letter or internal correspondence 23 reflect attitudes which you held at that period of time7 24 A. Yes, it does. _ 25 MR. POLK: May 1 make something clear on K1REY A. KEIJMEDY U ASSOCIATE! (612) 922-1953 .1 the record? 1 would like to know. Bill, which copy has 2 been marked as Deposition Exhibit 49, that is to say the --i unsigned or signeu copy7 4 'IK. HARVARD: I will tell you what. ' % 5 v;ilx check and see if we have a fax here and if we do I will fax you what I an looking at here, the signed copy, 7 because that's what I want attached. o :iR. LAURA: Mike, I didn't get your 9 number down 1-st time. it) MR. POLK: 612-43 7-2 7 j2. Ii MR. LAURA: 'was treat 27J27 12 MR. POLK: Correct. 1J MR. J Oil Eh : Anthony, mine is 14 612-53o-3U2I. 15 MR. LAURA: Why don't we take a five 15 minute break while 1 get this taxed? 1 7 MR. POLK.: That's not necessary as fur 13 as 1 am concerned at the* uouen.. 1 aporaciate if I get a iy copy. Lee me tell everybody on the line what ruy problem is 2u and get an idea from Bril how long he is going to be. 4C X First of all. Bill, can you give me a general idea of how 22 long you are going to take7 23 MR. HARVARD: Approximately two more 24 minutes. 25 MR. POLK: May 1 have the party's KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1S55 212 i permission to do a very short cross that would end before2 3:00? Tilt reason I am asking is because we have a 3 conference call with the Court on the Manisto case at 2:00 4 here in Minnesota. 5 MR. BROWNSON: Conf erence call with what --6 Court? / MR. POLK: Cone again? 3 MR. BROCKSOK: What Court' 9 MR. POLK: Judge Lilt me n. 10 MR. BROWRSOLi: That's news tc me. ii MR. HARVARD: I don't care. 12 MR. POLK: It deals with some issue that 1 3 I have with Union Carbide regarding document production on r4 tne Last CCjs~. 15 MR. BROhMJOK: do does that moan cl.at it J.6 uas to be s< ; c t. V 17 MR. POLK: Yes, that's what it means. lo Bob. iy MR. POLK: Has anyone got any problem 20 with thut procedure? 2x MR. BROWNSON: I gust want the record to 22 reflect that if there is conference calls with Judge 23 Littiuur. we have never been given notice of them. 24 MR. POLK; It's duly noted. 25 MR. HARVARD: hhy aon't I go ahead and KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612; 922-1955 1 ask my other two minutes worth of questions and then you 2 can move on. a HR. POLK: Thank you. 4 BY HK. HARVARD: 5 " 0. Doctor, you and I met for approximately an 6 hour and a naif before the deposition continuation this 7 afternoon, is that correct? t> A. That's corroet. Q. Tncn I believe you had lunch -with ny friend 10 here. Hr. Laura? 1 i A. Right. 12 Q. During our meetings we discussed the matters 13 which you and i nave discussed on the record here today, is :4 that rignt? 13 A. That's right. v. With respect to what -- let me ask it 17 differently. Doctor, at the time you left Union Carbide in Id 1970 did you have an opinion as to whether a causal 1J relationship nad been established between short fiber 20 Cairidiu asbestos and mesothelioma? 21 A. i know of no such association. 22 Q. Doctor, at the time you left Union Carbide 2j Corporation in lD7y did you have an opinion as to any -- i 24 will rephrase the question. Doctor, at the time you left 23 Union Carbide Corporation in 1979 did you have an opinion KIRBY A. KLDKEDY & ASSOCIATES (bli) 922-1955 1 ^.s to any causal relationship between short fiber Cairiuio 2 asbestos and luno cancer7 J MR. POLK: That's a yes or no answo-r, by 4 tne way. 5 A. No, 1 nad no -- I had no opinion on -- no '-6 opinion m that regard. V Q. Let ms go back to ray previous question because u 1 sense an objection to be posed perhaps 2 o 11 r on. Please 9 answer this question yes or no, if you can, Doc toe. Doctor, lb at tiie time you left Union Carbide Corporation in 1970 did II you have- an opinion as to whether a causal relationship had 12 been established between short fitoered Cairidie asbestos i j and atescaheiicmu? Just did you havi an opinion7 14 r. las, 1 had an opinion, i 3 o'. nnu what was that opinion. Doctor7 10 A. That there was no known association. j. ' Q. Vias it also your opinion that no causal lo relationship had been established7 J 9 MR. POLK: I will object, to the form of 2U that question as being leading and overly suggestive. 21 ilY i ih. iii.KVARD; 22 w. Let nc ask the question the long way again 23 then. Doctor. Doctor, at the tine you left Union Carbide d*-* in i`379 did you have an opinion as to whether_a causal 23 relax:ionsnip had beer* established between short fiber KidBY A. KE'JNDDY & ASSOCIATE? (612} 922-1955 1 chrysotiic or, excuse me, short fiber Cilridio. asbestos' and 2 the disease process known as mesothelioma7 3 MR. POLK: Same objection as previously 4 noteu. 5 BY* .1A. HARVARD: -6 Q. Did you have such an opinion. Doctor'' 7 A. Yes, I die. & Whet was your opinion? 9 A. 1 knew of no such association. ID 0. Doctor, at the time you retired from Union li Carbide Corporation in 1979 where were you working i 2 physically ? 13 A. Hew York. x 4 U. Wort? the files which you maintained in your 13 various aspects as assoeiite medical director there with lo you in Raw York? 17 A. Yes, they v;ore. I ti Q. ivnen you left that employment in19 7 9 uo you 19 have any personal knowledge as to where the files which you 20 hau maintained wore sent? 21 A. My information was tli.itthey were boxed and 22 sent down to West Charleston, West Virginia. 23 i-lR. HARVARD: Thank you. Doctor. Sext. 24 witness. 23 MR. POLK: Thank you, Bill. KIRiiY A. KENNEDY & ASLOCI \?J>; (ol2) 922-1955 216 1 2 REC ROS 3 -EXAM I NAT 1015 J BY Mil. POLK: 4 Q. Doctor, this is Mike Polk again representing the PlainLiff. How are you? A. All right. Q. Good. Doctor, first of all, did you have an opportunity to have any communications with any of tha9 attorneys for Union Carbide other than having run'di with iO ilr. Laura and your hour and a half conference with Hr. Harvard? 12 A. No, I did not. i J MR. HARVARD: Let me gust say for the 14 record, the Doctor mey hav/e forgotten I did telephone him 15 co s e t up tile, time and the place tor my meat ing with him i o or fore his lunch with ,f ir. Laura. x 7 BY MR. POLK: i B 0. Doctor, during yourconversations with your 19 attorney, Mr. Harvard, and I understand that that was this 26 morning, is that correct? 21 A. Hist's correct. 22 Q. In your conversat ions with him did you discuss 23 matters with him that he did not ask you about on direct 24 examination today? 25 A. Ho, we aid not. KIRBY A. KLKH2DY & A6B0CIATEB (612) 922-1955 1 o. Doctor, do you believe, sir, that there is an 2 association between cigarette smoking and lung cancer? J n Yes, there is. 4 Q. And do you believe, sir, that there is an 4 5 established cause and effect relationship between cigarette -6 smoking and lung cancer? 7 A. Will you repeat that again? It sounds like b tna same quc st ion to rae. 9 w Do you believe that it is medically 10 established. scientifically established that there is - 11 cause and effect relationship between cigarette smoking and 12 lung cancer? L 3 A. Yus. 14 Do you smoke? l a A. no. lb \2 have you smoked? 1 7 /"i Yes. 13 iw\ 'When did you cease smoking"'' 13 A. About 1979. 20 Q. 19 79? 21 A. 197 9. 22 Q. About the time that you left as being the 23 medical dire ctor for Union Carbide, is that right? 2-i That's right. _ 25 / Q. Thank you. Now, Doctor, 1 have in front of me f / KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATE'S (612; 922-1955 no 1 uert a document that I am not sure if you have or not . 2 Mil. POLK; I think it was referred to in 3 tlie earlier part of this deposition and, Eill, do you h^.ve 4 those there:, tne prior deposition exhibits? 5 hit. HARVARD: I never got n copy of them -6 per sc. 1 neve a number of exhibits here before me, hike. 7 1 tried to come prepared. Which document is it to which 0 you make reference? 9 MR. POLK: Just a second, I will see. 10 It would be Deposition Exhibit 32. xi 12 to I. a? MR. HARVARDs Can you just describe it 1 o MR. PJLK; Certainly. It's i January 12, 14 1305 memorandum, subject "Asbestos Toxicology Report". X L> t's a memorandum written by Thom is Hall. 16 Mil. HARVAKD; Hold on a second. X i .1ft. HARVARD: January 127 Id MR POLK: Correct. 13 MR. HARVARD: Two pug e. document7 2U MR. POLK: Correct. 21 ' lift. HARVARD: I nave it hare. 22 POLK; 23 i>. Dr. Dornehl, could you take a look at that? /24 bexieve you looked at it earlier but please take a look at 2 3 that for a moment. K.IRBY A. KENNEDY & AS > OCX AT ED (612) 922-1955 -1 1I. o-> 1 MR* HARVARD: Just the letter itself'' 2 MR. POLK: At this tim-, that's correct. a MR. HARVARD: Just the first two per -s. 4 Doctor. 1 era telling him that, Mike, because my copy is ' 5 attached to a number of different things. "6 A. A.LI right. 1 see the letter. i Q. Doctor, luve you read that letter now'5 3 A. I have read the latter. y 0. Doctor, would you agree with me that as of the 10 time or the date that appears on that letter that Union 1 i Carbide recognized cm association between asbestos and lung 12 career7 -L U A. Weil, let me read here again for a minute and 14 see Wait it says about cancer. Weil, the letter in effect i 0 calKc about reports of cancer producing .and effects and XO then scutes objections to chose reports. a / Q. i understand that. Doctor, but I want you to la answer my question. A. Ana your question again was7 20 w. Certainly. I will rephrase it for you and 21 repeat it. Doctor, would you agree that that report 22 indicates cht.t Union Carbide, as of the date which appears 2c on the report, recognized an association between lung 24 cancer ana exposure to asbestos7 _ A. Do, 1 acn ' t think so. 1 think v.'hat the thing KIRBY A. KEEhEDY & ASSOCIATED \di2; J22-1955 77TT 1 says is that there are people who have said that there was 2 such an association. Wo xiiu not necessarily agree. -> Q. do it's your testimony then that in spite of 4 that report, m your mind Union Carbide did not recognize 5 an association between asbestos and cancer at that time, is -6 that correct? 7 A. That's correct. 8 MR. LAURA: I have an objection to that. 9 I just object to the form of that question. 10 ST MR. POLK: xl 0. how, Doctor, would you agree with me that as 12 of the time of that report that it was recognized within l.i the report that asbestosis was not a condition precedent to 14 the production of lung cancer0 lb MR. HAKV.aRD: 1 object to the for in of lo the question. x V MR. POLK: Fine. lb MR. LAURA: 1 thin! there is confusion, x 3 Mike. Arc you talking about the asbestos toxicology report 20 new or the letter? 21 MR. POLK: Talking about the letter. He 22 hasn't rooa the asbestos toxicology report yet. 23 MR. LAURA: You said report. 24 MR. POLK: Well, its entitled "Asbestos 2 3 Toxicology Report" in the covering letter. I am basing my KlRBY A. KEhWrlDY & ASSOCIATE------------------(612; 322-19S5 _L question now to the Doctor solely upon his review of th _ 2 two pages of Dr. hull's letter dated January 12, 1965. J A. I don't see that this letter has anything to 4 do with whether or not asbestosis -- the disease asbestosis 5 and lung cancer are concomitant. . -6 U. So your answer to rny question would be no" / frit. HARVARD: Object. I would request 8 that you pose the question again. 9 MR. POLK: Okay. 10 BY MR. POLK: x 1 Q. Doctor, the exhibit. Deposition exhibit 32 12 that you have now reviewed, would you agree witn me tha r. 1 j that has information contained within it that would 14 indicate that the disease of asbestosis is not a conditio1, j. 5 precedent to the development of lung cancer7 16 A. I do not see that this i< tter says any thing of 2 7 taw klnu. 1 o Q. And it's your testimony that as of 1985 you iy had no indication from any source that asbestos could ceus 2 J caneer, is that correct? 2x A. We did not Know of any such information that -- 22 we die net know of any such information. 2n 8o is the answer to ay question correct, or is 24 what I said correct? I will repeat it again, if yen wish. 25 j-iR. HARVARD: Would you repeat it. KIRBY A. KENNEDY U ASSOCIATE:! (612) 922-1955 please? A. 1 don't know whet you are talking about. Q. Okay. Doctor, is it correct that as o January 12, 19o5, you hau no indication from any sout c whatsoever tnat indicated to you that there was an association between asbestos and lung cancer? MR. HARVARD: object to the form and iso object on the use of vague terms. BY MR. POLK: Q. Doctor, is there anything about tnct question that l just asked you that you don't understand' A. Repeat it again, please, so I can clarify that answer. Q. Would you agree with me that as of January 12 of 10U5, you had no indication from any source that there was an association between asbestos and lung cancer' MR. HARVARD: :Jime ob j oction. A. My unswer to that would be we had no indications at that time of any association in 19o5. J. And so to answer my specific question, you had no indication from any source that there was an association between asbestos and lung cancer, is that correct? MR. HARVARD: Jame objection. Asked and answered as well. _ MR. POLK: No, it was not. KIRBY A. RLMNEDY & AbSOCIATHi firm q ') -J I ihl. HARVARD: That's ary objection 2 MR. POLK: Ok uy. bl MR. POLK: 4 C. Can you onswex 1 5 MR. HARVARD: I think he is thinking the ~-6 question over. Doctor, as soon as you ire ready if you can 7 answer the question, please answer. Ho is looking back ci over the letter again now. 9 MR. POLK: Okay. 10 A. V.cxl, my answer still is to the effort that wr xl do not believe that there was any reliable ci~ta which 12 suggested that tnere was an association between smoking or 1 3 between asbestos exposure and cancer. 14 G. Then I will rephrase the question. Doctor, as 1 o or January 12, 1965, did you have any indication, reliable 10 oil not, as to v.'nethoz or not there was a 11 o S G O l l vi L i O'tl 17 twc e n a sbe st os and lung c ancor? id A. There was information of that type around, bur i 3 Vi aid not necessarily agree with it. 20 0. I understand what you are saying, sir. boul^ 2 j. you ..yree with we that the information which you did not 22 agree with, waking an association or suggesting an 2 3 association between asbestos and lung cancer, came tc your 24 attention prior tc 19507 23 MR. HARVARD: Object. KIRBY A. KENNEDY L AGHOCIATE3 (bi2) 922-1955 i A. No. 2 w. 1 am sorry, I didn't hear your answer. 3 A. My answer was no, it did net come to our 4 attention. 5 Q. Weil, some information apparently came to your ~~6 attention before January 12, 19G5, which you cid not agree 7 with that indicated an association between asbestos and o iurxg cancer, is that much true? 9 MR. HARVARD: Do you understand the 10 question? 11 A. Soto of that information might have com-: 12 across my desk. We did not agree v.'ith it for various? i 3 J&SOIlS 14 T. I understand that. You have wade that very 15 clear, Doctor. That's not my question. I will follow' it X U up again with a different question, however, the material I 7 that you me referring to that may have crossed your desk io that you did not agree with, watn was the first time that 19 that kind of material suggesting an association between 20 asbestos and lung cancer first crossed your desk* 21 A. 1 have absolutely no way of knowing whet that 22 time was. 25 Q. But you have earlier testified that it 24 definitely was not before 1960, is that correct7 2d A. I would say that is absolutely correct. KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 22 ^ i Q. From that may wu ussun'i that it cams across 2 your desk at soma time between 1960 and January 12, 1965"' 5 MR. HARVARD: Object to the form cf the* 4 question. You may assume what you wish. Answer it if you 5 can. Doctor. A. On a logical basis you would n?ve to assupK* 7 that that is a correct statement. d Q. Thank you. Doctor, where are you right now"* 9 A. Where am I7 Springfield, Missouri. iJ Q. l understand. Are you in a law office there X i for W. R. Grace, is that correct7 12 A. I don't know who it's for. It's a law office. 13 Q. And presently with you are Union Carbide 14 attorneys Bill Harvard and Tony Laura, is that right7 15 A. Right. iO MR. BISHOP: Gary Bishop for W. R. Grace. i 7 Just so the record is clear, we are not at my offices. V*To i <j are in the offices of a third-party law firm that is just 19 providing tnese facilities so that we could take this 20 deposition. 21 MR. POLK: Thank you. 22 BY MR. POLK: 2s Q. Doctor, i have a few other questions. You 24 earlier testified that the sole purpose of pelletizing 2 5 Calridia asbestos was to, "reduce the problem of dusting." KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 i 2' J Do you recall tnat testimony7 L. Yes. Q. Doctor, what is the basis for you so stctinc7 4 A. doll, it' s obvious that the material wr, ic:h is 5 in a pelletized form has less ability to release lurg? '-6 quantities of dust, than does a loose mass of fibers. / Q. Doctor, you have made that also very clear. 8 My question to you is what is the basis for you having 9 knowledge that the sole purpose of pelletizing the Calridia 10 asbestos was to reduce the problem of dusting, w*a -:re lid ij. you obtain that in forma t ion from7 12 A. l learned that on my plant visits. i j 0. Or; your plant visits to King City, California7 14 A. Right. 18 Q. And the first plant visit that you made to lb King City, California was when7 i 7 A. Ihut`s herd to recall. Sometme I would say id enl iy 'Ot-s. 1 5 Q. in 19c>2 or ' 61 perhaps7 20 A. 1 am sorry. I can't give you that close a date. 21 Q. Who told you that the pc iietizinn of Calridin 22 asbestos or the sole purpose of pelletizing that product 22 was to reduce the dusting problem? 24 A. I nave no idea who told me that. Somebody who ZU conducted rae on the plant tour. KIRBY A. KbdNEDY & ASSOCIATda (012) 922-1955 1 Q. Doctor, is it your understanding then that the 2 pelletizing of tna Celridin asbestos was done from the a inception of the King City raill7 4 A. 1 can't answer that for sure, but I don't 5 believe it was. That was started, 1 believe, a couple of -6 years after the mill was in operation. 7 Q. And, Doctor, you would agree with me, would b you not, that non-pelieLized Calr ictiu asbestos fib -r wan j sold by Union Carbide? lb A. At one time, yes. i i Q. And, Doctor, do you have any information 12 within your personal knowledge that would indicate when la Union Carbide ceased selling open fiber Calridia asbestos0 14 A. I have no way of knowing. IS 1). bo you don't know if Union Carbide sole open lb Cali id in asbssios fiber to the Conwcd plant in Cloquet, 17 ilinnesocu, late as 19 7 4 ? lb A. a frankly don't know that they ever sola any i 3 to Ccnwed. 20 i4R. HARVARD: I ara sorry, it was Conwed0 21 THU VvITiJESS: Conwcd, excuse ms. 22 Bi MR. POLK: 23 Q. Doctor, would your opinions with reference to 24 tne hazards of asbestos be any different if you were to 2 3 assume that asbestos being sold to Conwcd was sold in a KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATE (612) 922-1555 21 i 1 open fiber form? 2 A. 1 would. Say it would be more hazardous than 3 the pei-iceized material. 4 0. Doctor, what studies, if any, did Union 5 Carbide perform, to your knowledge, on Union Carbide -6 asbestos pellets that demonstrated that this dusting was 7 less than open fiber7 h A. 1 have no personal knowledge of any studies J that they mada. 10 U. Doctor, do you have any personal knowledge 11 whatsoever that would allow you to testify as to whether or 12 not tne salesperson dealing with the Conwed plant in i J Cloquet, Minnesota between 1962 and 1974 ever received or 14 saw any of your toxicology reports or your office's 15 toxicology reports on asbestos7 10 !1R. HARVARD: Object to form. 17 A. 1 would have no way of answering that. i a Q. Doctor, just a couple other quick questions. 19 You, in your direct examination, indicated or a a differentiated between an association and a causal 21 xclationsnip, is that correct? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Doctor, what is your criteria for there to be 24 an association, as you have used that term? 2 5 I1R. HARVARD: Do you mean an association KIRBY A. RDNHEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 general or with respect to a particular category of subjects? BY IfA. POLKs Q. do. 1 am talking. Doctor, specifically with 9 reference to your definition of the word association in rmedical context. in other words, what criteria do you us-or do you require before you can conclude that there is an association between a substance and a medical me lad: y resulting from that substance? A. In the concept of an association what you are talking about is u group of people who are exposed to h given substance and who demonstrate an increased incidence of a disease a3 -- well, that's it. v>. And what do you require when you use the i-'crd causal relationship, that is to sav, what criteria do you require to conclude that there is a causal relationship as you nave d. fin-eu those terms? A. Ail right. With the causal relationship you require more data than you do for a simple association. \ causal relationship you not only 'nave to demonstrate the fact that tnere is indeed an exposure to a given material, you have to demonstrate the fact that this disease appears only in those people who are exposed to this materia'. You have to demonstrate the fact that there are no other factors involved in the potential cause for the condition KaRBY A. KEWNEDY 6. ASSOCIATE" (612) 922-1955 2 .f <J 1 observed in the people. And as a last step, if at all 2 possible, you want animal experimentation to prove that J maeed this material is capable of doing what it is 4 observed to be doing in humans. 5 Q. Thank you, Doctor. That answers my question. Referring once again to Exhibit number 32, that's the 7 letter now that Dr. Hail wrote-7 6 A. Yes. 'J d. In the third paragraph within that letter, the 10 second line, you will see that he referred to, "Tha cancer i i producing report." Do you see that? 12 A. Yes. 12 w. Doctor, what cancer producing report was Dr. 14 ilu.il referring to7 12 A. 1 don'c have in a remotestidea. 1 b Mil. HARVARD: Off the record. l 7 IAt this time a discussion was held off Id the record.) 19 BY MR. rOLlv: 42 \o' Q. How, Doctor, again referring to that same 21 exhibit, you will see in Paragraph 2 that Dr. Hall is 22 suggesting that he is going to nave you "Formulate a 23 statement for us", and that's a quote. Do you see that7 *-T A. es, 1 see it. 22 Q Now, did you ever formulate a statement for AiRBY A. KENNEDY"R ASSOCIATE! (H12) 922-1955 1 them? 2 A. Trie answer is yes. 3 Q. Ana that's embodied in your Asbestos 4 a c ^ i cjo j. o^jy Report or reports? 5 /* It depends on which one you refer to. -6 j. Let me asK you this. Other than documents 7 thee are entitled "Asbrstos Toxicology Reports1', Jit you ii formulate any internal documentation or statements that are 9 not entitled "Asoestos Toxicology Reports" that you drafted10 or hie drafted for general circulation^ li A. I really can't remember. i2 U. how, in the first paragraph of that exhibit, l 3 you will see that Dr. Hall refers to several reports given 14 at technical meetings and summaries of th-m carried by tfc? 13 n ci tio li Cl 1 wire services. Do you see that? i 0 A. Yes. 17 Q. Wnat. several reports is ho referring to'5 IB A - 1 won't have any ide?. 19 sJ What technics i meeting is 'no referring to? 2.0 A. I don't have any idea. 2i w .In it suitir.iar ie;s is he re ferring tov 22 A. I don't have any idea. 23 Q. And what national wire services is he 24 referring to? 2 3 A. I don't have any idea. KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATED (oi 2 ) 922-1935 2 "2 1 Q. Do you have any idea about this, die: you ever 2 see any of the reports, any minutes of the technical a meetings or any summaries of the national wire services 4 that are rtferred to within that 5 i-iil. HARVARD: Object to the form as --G uryumantMtive. 1 MR. POLK: I am just asking if he ever o SclW cl'iCIfi# 9 MR. HARVARD: I understand. My 1U objection as argumentative goes to the nature of th 11 preparatory comment. 12 MR. POLK: 1 will withdraw that pert of 13 it then. 14 A. Since 1 have no idea what he refers to, 1 have 13 no way of knowing whether 1 ever saw any of them or not. lb 2. Doctor, than finally, you know Mr. Pufahi, is 17 tnat correct? lb A. Bud Pufahl, yes. 19 Wow, I have a document here in front of m 2 u tn.it is anted February 8, 19G6 and I don't believe that 21 that was used in the earlier part of this deposition. 22 MR. POLK: 1 don't know, Bill, if you 23 have a copy there or not. 2*i MR. HARVARD: I am looking_right now, 25 Hike. Can you give me a hint as to what it is7 Is it a KIRBY A. KLKNEDY b ASSOC 1/ViEd (612) 922-1955 1 inc lao? Is i`c a bread basket? Is it a letter? 2 MR. POLK: It's a Lamborghini car. 3 MR. HARVARD: We* don't have it. 4 MR. POLK: It's a February 8, I960 5 letter from Pufahl to Peter Chaston. While you are looting ""6 may 1 continue? 7 MR. HARVARD: Yes. <5 LY HR. POLK: 9 0. Doctor, do you know who Mr. Peter R. Choc con 16 is of London, England? 1 A A. I do not. i2 t>. Doctor, can you recollect beck in the 1966 i j time frame about the U.K. paper industry and issues 14 involving asbestos within that industry? I era just talking id generally now. J. O A. Hot really. x / 0. 'well, let me ask you this. Did you ever moot ia with Hr. pufahi in 1966 and review with him toxicology 19 studies relative to asbestos that were from England? 2U A. 1 recslly can't recall. 21 Q. Doctor, uo you recall this, do you recall 22 indicating to Mr. Pufahi in 196b that the papers that you 23 reviewed at that time, "Do not by any means present 24 incontrovertable proof nor do they profess to_do so." Do A J you recall that at all? KI RBY A. KEHMECY u ASSOCIATE (612) 922-1951 I A. 1 air; sorry, 1 'haV no iuoa 'vh.it that letter is 2 associated with. J Q. Lot mo asK. you this. Do you recall advising 4 fix . Puf-hl in 1 yo0, anu tnis would be prior to February J 5 of iSob, that Union Carbide. * s, "Position should remain that in Uni tea States experience there has been no increased 7 incidence of lung cancer when the threshold limit has not 8 teen axcecueti." Do you recall ever making that state-pant 9 to hi. Pufahl? 10 A.. I don't recall making it to Pufahl, bat i il agree with u. 12 Q. So you don't have any reason to doubt that you 13 may have stucco that at that time, is that right? i h h. I would sey tnat's correct. 15 Q. Doctor, do you have any information, and you a b may feel that this is a ridiculous question, but let mo 1 7 just ask it anyway. Do you have any information chat the i 8 anatomical makeup of a native of England is any different 19 tnan tnc- ain.toiuieal makeup of a person living in the United 20 States in 19o6? 21 MR. HARVARD: Object to the form as 22 argumentative, but go ahead. 23 A. Tney are mad at us. I can't answer the 24 question. 2 5 0 Do you have any information that would K1KBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATE? (612) 922-1955 i indicate to you in 1966 that a native of England was more 2 susceptible to ashesto-related diseases than persons in the United States? 4 A. That, sir, would require text because of the 5 nigh incidence of air pollution in England at that Line and ~6 at subsequent years and the effect that this might indeed 7 have upon the development of asbestosis. B Q. My question though relates to 1966 and that is 9 whether or not you had any information which indicated to lu you chat persons in England were mere susceptible to 11 asbestos diseases than persons in the United States. Do 12 you nave a recollection of n.-.ving any information in that 1j regard at that time' 14 A. The only recollection 1 would; have would be X U that if you asked me tnat question in 1966 my answer would X U be the same, that the high .incidence of air pollution in 17 England would mike it vary likely that the people exposed 13 to asbestos would be more likely to have asbasLosi&. 13 Q. Again, did you have that information in 19667 2'J MR. HARVARD: Asked and answered. 2x MR. POLK: Mo, it is not. 22 BY MR. POLK: 2 3 0. Did you have that? 24 A. Certainly everybody knew about the air 2 3 pollution of England in 1966. KIRBY A. KREMEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1953 2o 1 Q. So ii'i your view, as of February 3, I960, it 2 was your understanding and you held the belief that persons a in England were more susceptible to asbestos-related 4 diseases tnun persons in the United States? 5 A. .1 did not have that belief and I don't believe "6 in that particular thing. You are trying to create 7 something which did not exist in my personality at that u time. y 5R. POLK: Bill, do you have that 1U document? 1 i `ii\. HARVARD: We don't have it here, 12 HiKo. I am sorry, we would love for you to fax us a copy lu but i don't have it here with re. 14 elK. POLK: All light. IS :-lR. HARVARD: We are happy to either 16 'have you fax a copy or read portions of it to the Doctor 17 and asK him questions. 16 BY jiR PaLh: 19 Q. Why don't I do that. Doctor the second 20 paragraph in your letter or, I am sorry, this is Hr. 21 Pufahi's letter, in fact i will read the first paragraph. 22 It says, "Dear Peter:" this is to Peter Cheston of Union 21 Carbide Limited, H Grafton Street, London, England. Jt 24 says, "Dear Peter: Your suggestion that we consider Z J including, 'U.K. paper industry' in our general sales KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 ?. 37 1 meeting is weli taken -- ani 1 plan to review the notes 2 v/itn lan Sayers. 3 'Apropos of your letter on toxicological 4 studies relative to asbestos -- we have reviewed the two 5 excerpts you sent us with Dr. Carl Dernehl. He counsels "xi that the papers 'do not by any means present / incontrovertible proof nor do they profess to do sc.' 8 Further: 'Our position should remain that in United States 9 experience there has been no increased incidence of lung 10 cancer when the threshold limit -its not been exceed*, d. ' " ll Doctor, doc-s that help ref resit your 12 re-col section at all Oit this subject? 13 A. It states two things. 14 Q. Doctor, let ;ne interrupt you. I am just 13 asking you ii: whuc I read helps refresh. your recollection7' lb That's all 1 h^ve asne-d you. 1 7 A. h o. 18 Vj. how, 1st me just go on in this letter. In the 19 second parag;:aph of cite letter it states this, ag-.in this 20 letter being written by Hr. Pufahl, "We will let you know 21 tiic: results. probably in an appropriately written statement 22 by Jr. Dernehi." tiy question to you, Doctor, is this, do 23 you have any recollection of writing a statement at the 24 request of Hr. Pufani dealing with the subject matter 25 time's contained within tuis letter? KiR8Y A. KENNEDY L ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1355 MR. HARVARD: You -ire talking about the subject Eattjr that he has been read to this point, because 3 we uon't have a copy of che latter or know if there is 4 anything else-7 5 MR. POLiK; That's correct. -6 MR. HARVARD: Okay. A. I have no idea what ha is talking about. i iiave no last tnat I ever prepared anything. 9 MR. POLK: Thank you for your time. 10 MR. LAURA: Doctor, would you like to i i take a break at this point'7 12 MR. HARVARD: Anybody else'7 J 3 MR. BROdSiSOR; I have seme questions. 14 ;1R. JONES: This is-7 15 MR. BROCKS JR : Brown son. lL 17 R3CR33 >-HX.V11 riAT I ON BY MR. SRG'.'.'ho DD : 0. Rob Bi own son representing Conwr-d. Doctor, can 20 you ii.-ar no? 2. 11. Yes. 22 C. Ycu recall I am Bob Crownson. I represent 23 Conweu. he net last week down in Springfield. <ti *i a 1 e s 2 j y. Doctor, i have some questions for yon. if you KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1355 1 will loot; at your letter of Huron 21, 1970, which I think 2 bus now been marked as Exhibit 49, do you sec that letter"7 rt. Yes, I have it. 4 Q. The last paragraph reads, "Some people bn1- ieve 5 tnero is an -association between exposure to asbestos dust "O and the development of lung cancer and mesothelioma. There e / is no informant ion regarding Celridia asbestos in this Li respect as yet. It would be prudent to assume th^t 9 CaJLr iclia asbestos will behave like other asbestos in this 10 regard." Do you see that reference? ll . \ e S. i 12 Q. Can we assume that that is something you wrote r -> since it's ovur your signature? 14 A. That's rignt. i j '. Would you agree with me then that as of larch -i. o 31, lu/u you believe that Cuindiu asbestos m y very vn 11 17 cause mesothelioma? 1 d A. ho. 1 simply stated it wouldn't bo prudent to 19 uisur.td that this night happen. It does not mean that it 2 3 will Happen. 21 Q. Would you agrea with me that as of , larch 11, 22 1970 you thought that, it was a possibility? 2 J A. Anything is u possibility when you are dealing 24 with something like that. C. Weil, you thought it was enough of a KIRBY A. KEWA'EDY S. ASSOCIATE!-: (612; 922-1933 possibility to write in year letter that a prudent person should tissual that it nsiqht occur? >\. That's right. 4 Mil. HARVARD: I object to the forr; 5 because th-.it is not what is stated. it does not state * -6 prudent person could assume that would occur. It stat'-s whut it says m the letter and I object to your characterization. MR. BROWTv dw'.V: Well, I think he his 10 already answered tne question. MR. HARVARD: My object is still on the 12 rtf cor a. The Doctor answered prior to my objection. My i c objection, 1 L_li_-ve, is good. 14 MR. BROUdSOH: The objection is no* o'. HR. il.A/W.sRD: Good BY HR. BA'JWhS'Jd : 1 i t:. Did you also believe, Doctor, as of 'March 21, id 1D70 that nesotho 1 ioiao could be caused by exposure to i) asbestos below the then existing TLV or threshold 3 imt 20 VaiUt? 21 A. r did not believe that bccaus i we hod no 22 evidence to support such a belief. 2 a 0. dell, I a/n not talking about Calridia 24 specifically, I am talking about any type of asbestos Let ur rephrase the question. K.KBY A. KL'UMEDY 1. ASSOCIATE-! (612) d22-i'd55 i A. 1 think you Said Calndia the first tin.-. 2 Q. Hi dia, I will rephrase the question. \s of j Marcii 3l, i97U diu you believe that mesothelioma could be 4 caused by exposure to any type of asbestos at levels Li low 5 the threshold limit value? t\ m KO| we did not. 7 u. m? refer you, Doctor, t o what's been o marked a s Exhibit 48, wr.icn is t ho asbes tos toxicology 9 report of M=y 8, 1969. Do you see that''' 10 A. its. -x \ w book at the last paragraph on Pago 1. 12 A. Yes. 1 x Q. Tin- second to the last st nt en.-e wh i ch reeds, 14 Hi-rcia t. J i 4. 62 X lU Cv iliicbj.': it clppOciT'S L} 1 c-. t the TLV of five x5 .rail ion particles per cubic foot may not be low enough to 16 pr otect against ;v soth _-iiomu. " Do you see that? 17 A. Yes. 18 `J- bo would you agree with me that at least 19 according to Union Carbide 's Asbestos Toxicology Report of 20 May ts, 1969 someone at Union Carbide believed that to be 21 true? 22 MR. HARVARD: Object to the form of the 23 question. 24 iiY MR. BROWnejR: _ 23 o. Go ahead and answer. KiRfcY A. KENNEDY U ASSOCIATES < b12) 922-1955 242 M3. HARVARD: He is looking at the repor t righ t now. MR. BROWHdOH: Excuse me. I-iK. HARVARD: Ho is looking at the report right now. --o A. 1 said at the time that this statement was made it was probably true because very shortly afterwards the threshold limit revel was lowered from five to two. y Q. Well, would you agree with me that at that 1 o time you questioned whether even two million fibers per n cubic foot was an adequate threshold limit value- to prevent 12 against mesothelioma' 13 A * Do, 1 would not agr ce with that. 14 L' V v '? ilf X -Ji L. me reftr you, Doctor, then to a 15 -Lett er wni ch l think your Coupse 1 aas and T would ask that i o we p ul i out. 11 was Exhibit 3u, the letter of June 7, idA 1J to D A. Hail from yourself. i <J MR. HARVARD: Hold on on that. Let's 19 I f we can find it. June 7, '63, is that right? 20 MR. B ROW'D GOH: '67. 21 MR. HARVARD: 1 am sorry, '67. 22 MR. BROVAJSOU: A two page letter on 23 Union Carbide stationery. 24 MR. LAURA: Can wo go off the record' 23 lAt this time a discussion was held off KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATED 1612} 322-1955 the. record.} A. 1 cen understand it. What's your question? j. Let's go back on the record here. My question. Doctor, is tnis. in your letter of June 7, 1967 to Dr. Hail, which has previously been marked as Dernehl Deposition Exhibit o_i, you ;n.ike the statement on P--.gr 2 in tne second full paragraph, "It is probable --" and i am quoting, "it is probable that the five million particles per cubic foot will not be acceptable for the prevention of mesothelioma. 1 nave no idea what concentration might be effective in preventing this disease and I ar. woncoring whether a Icvti of one million particles per cubic foot would be acceptable." Do you sec- that reference? A. Yes, I see that. o. having read that would you agree that as of June of 19b7 you were questioning whether a thrashold limit value of one million particles per cubic foot would be effective to prevent mesothelioma? MR. HARVARD: Object to the form. Go ahead, Doctor. A. bo. Actually this is i simple statement that you say, "Gee, I wonder if --" end it simply says hare -- I simply say here 1 wonder whether a limit of one million particles would bo effective. U. That's right. KIRBY L. KEhHEDY a ASSOCIATE:* (512) 922-1955 244 1 A. Two million particles might still be effective. 2 Q. But 1 cuess the question is there was e t least 6 some question in your mind as of that date whether one 4 million might be effective or not7 A. bo, not really. 1 was just simply expressing an opinion about the uncertainty of this thing and I used the "I wonder it" as a way of doing that. a 0. Would you agree with me that as of Juno 7, y isK>7 you believed there was some uncertainty as to whether iu the threshold limit v.iue would prerent mesoLucTionu7 xl A. 12 wu s. loptnas upon what the threshold limit value 13 0. Let's take five mi 11 ion fibers per cubic -foot, 14 n. Five million particles per cubic foot was i 5 probably too high on the busis of the fact that it had lb subsequently been lowered to two. 17 j. Would you agree with me as fax as you wore Id concerned you did not know whether two million fibers p?r iy cuuic foot would prevent mesothelioma7 20 A. wo, 1 did not know that. 21 Q. Do you believe that as of 1907 Union Carbide 22 should have conveyed to its customers the fact that it was 23 not certain whether two million particles per cubic foot 24 would prevent mesothelioma? MR. HARVARD; Object to the form of the KIRBY A. KEHNEDY & ASSOC1 ATDo (012; 922-1955 215 1 question. You cun answer, Doctor, if you cun. 2 A. I would say no simply because it would have u beun going contrary to the generally accepted opinions of 4 th^t day and time. 5 Q. Do you believe that as of June of 19G7 Union *"6 Carbide should have told its customers of Calridiu asbestos 7 that two million fibers per cubic foot threshold limit o value would prevent mesothelioma? y MR. HARVARD: Object to the form of the lu question and also object to the question in so tar us it's 11 talking about what a corporation should or should net have 12 dona which may be outside, the realm of anyone's perview 13 other than the jury's in this case. Answer the question, 14 if you cur;. Doctor. 15 A. Ho, 1 con't think I cun answer that. lu Q. Do you believe. Doctor, th^t as of August of a. 1 1972 Union Carbide Corporation should have told its ia cast outers of C.nriaiu asbestos that if they ware v/ithin the iy threshold limit value they did not need to worry about any 20 disease among their employees? 21 MR. HARVARD: Object to the forra. dame 22 objection as before. Answer the question if you can. 23 Doctor. 24 A. 1 think the corporation had the jright to 25 inform its customers that on the basis of current knowledge. KIRBY A. KEHHEDY t ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 which was * threshold limit value, that they could expect the employees to be protected against the hazard. Q. Doctor, would that include the hazard of mesothelioma as o August of 1972? A. Mesothelioma must have been considered in this setting of tine threshold limit value. MR. HARVARD: 1 object. I have the same form of objection to that question as I previously stated. 1 don' t thinK the Court Reporter heard it. The Doctor and. I were talking it the same time. BY M R. B K D tv b SOD : Q. Doctor, do you believe that as of 1967 Union Carbiue should nave stated in a label on Calridi n asbrsto1? bogs that there was j possibility that Calridia couiu cause nosath-liom^? MR. HARVARD: Object to the form of the question ana 1 will also state that tnis entire line of questioning was done on earlier cross-examination and i an objecting to the question as having previously been asked and answered. It's also beyond the scope of the direct examination which was just conducted. a n owur? MR. BROVvl'3011: hre you going to let him HR. HARVARD: You can answer the question, if you can. Doctor. AIRBY A. KEUMEOY & ASSOCIATED (612) 922-1955 1 A. Would you repeat the question? In tnc 2 conversation I rose it. 'j ME. BROW;!SOM: Would you read that, 4 Kirby? 5 i At this time the requested portion of the -6 transcript was read aloud by the Court 7 Reporter.) B HR. HARVARD; SuEle objection. g A. In 19G7 there was no evidence that Calridia ID asbestos would cause mesothelioma so there is no point in 11 putting it on the label. 12 Q. Doctor, earlier this afternoon Mr. Kennedy 13 asked you some questions about or Mr. Harvard, I am sorry, Xt *T- asked you some questions about the- toxicologyreports and 15 who they would be sent to and that sort of thing. Do you 1 u recall that? i 7 A. Yes. Q. Do you have any information, Doctor, that any ly asbestos toxicology report from Union Carbide was in fact sent to Conwud Corporation? 21 .a. 1 have no information on that. 22 Q Let me pose to you some hypothetical questions. 23 24 nypothetieais. 25 MR. HARVARD: Object to the form cf: any biR. BROWN SON;: Objection is noted, Bill. KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATED (612) 922-1955 248 1 BY MM. 3RGun1>ON : 2 U. Lumber 1, if Union Carbide personnel conducted 3 air sampling at the Conwed plant in 1972, assume that's 4 true, Doctor, do you believe those Union Carbide industrial 5 hygienists should have informed Ccnwed that Calrid in could "6 possibly cause lucsoth. Horn'.? 7 MR. HARVARD: Object to the form of th: question. Object to the question as calling for y speculation. Object to the question as a hypothetical. 10 Object to the question as argumentative. Go ahead. Doctor, 11 answer it you can. j /A. Uh.ii, in 1972 there was still no evidence that i J Calriuia asbestos could cause mesothelioma. 14 Q. do would your answer to the question be no. ie 1 o MR. HARVARD: I believe the Doctor 17 ci n S W 0 T V J tilt C4 U ,vJ Sul C .1 Id iy u l (i. MR. BROWNSOW* Well, I don' t think he 20 MR. LAURA: He obviously felt it didn't 21 call for a yes or no answer. 22 BY F:R BROwbdOH : 23 0. Doctor, answer this question. Assume 24 nypotheticciiiy that Union Carbide personnel conduct -d air 2 5 Sampling at the Ccnwed premises in 1972. Do you be3ieve KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1985 those Union Carbide personnel should have informed Corw-'d that Cairidia asbestos exposure below the threshold limit value could cause mesothelioma? question. MR. HAVARD: Object to the form of the Object to the form as hypothetical. Object to the form as argumentative. Calling for speculation. Ob j e ct to die form as c.alii ng for inf or it.ation outside th e scope anu the knowledge of tni s w itness. Further object ViSjvOii. ollO answered. Go ahead c nd answer the question now Doctor, it you can. A. First of air, the only thing I can say is that I know of no evidence that Union Carbide pc op la -'ver did iii-hv any surveys at Convred. 0. `mat's w]iy I asked it hypothetically. Doctor, because a know you are not aware of that. A. i would expect that Union Carbide people would intern the Conwc d people that they were within the threshold limit value and that was really the only tiling that we were m a position to answer to. Q. Let me ask the further hypothetical and sva time. 1 assume your same objections will be made and they are noted here. HR. HARVARD: I will just place my objections to the last: question to this question. tiR. BROWN SOta: KiRUY A. KENNEDY u ASSOCIATES (612; 922-1955 1 Q. Do you believe, Doctor, that if Union Carbid-: 2 personnel weit asked at the time of such air sampling t!n`. 'i they shoulu have disclosed that any disease could bo caused 4 by exposure to asbestos under the threshold limit value' 5 MR. HARVARD: Same objection. -6 A. 1 am not sure 1 can answer that question the 7 way it was worded. 6 w. Vvhy is that. Doctor' 9 A. Well, the way I -- well, I can't understand it 1U the way it was worded, especially the last part of it. 1 i <3. Lot bio rephrase it and it will be the same 12 Hypothetical and the same objections are noted. Do you 1 j belxove, Doctor, if Union Carbide personnel were conducting 14 air sampling at the Conwed plant in 1972 and wore asked by 1 u Corrwed whether exposure to C undia asbestos under the lb threshold limit value could cause disease, do you believe * 7 then tney should nave -- strike that. What response should id they have given to that question if asked1? i 9 MR. riARVARD: Same objections, plus 20 object to the compound nature of the question. 21 A. My opinion is that their response should have 22 been that they were not qualified to answer that question. 23 W. 11 tnose Union Carbide personnel who w? re not 24 qualified to answer the question wanted an answer in Augus'2b c 1972 who within Union Carbide could they have turned to KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES lbl2) 922-1955 1 at that time to get an answer? 2 A. They would have come to probably my office in j New York. 4 C. Doctor, 1 have a few more questions here. 5 Sariicr this afternoon Mr. Harvard was asking you about Calriuia being short fibereu. Do you remember those 7 questions? 6 '\. Yes. y IN Do you recall what the. definition of asbestos 10 was by Obiia. in 1172, how they uefined asbestos? ii A. bo, 1 uon1t recall that. 12 g. Have you ever heard asbestos defined as :: i 3 fiber of five microns in length7 Have you ever heard that 14 definition used? i b A. Well, I suppose that would bs -- could bo five, iu or sit, or seven, or eight, or 10, or 20. 17 Q. 1 am just wondering if you have hoard the lb uslinition of five microns used in any context7 y A. Well, I have heard the -- well, I am not sure 20 i can answer it in that regard. I have, heard of tho fact 21 that asbestos is described as a material of varying fiber 22 length varying from actually two and three microns up to 20 23 or mere microns. 2- U. Let iue ask you this. Doctor. Would you agree zb with me that tnose Cairidin asbestos fibers which are lass K1R3Y A. KEiWEDY & ASSOCIATE;! (612) 922-1955 252 1 than live microns in length are still asbestos f ibf 2 A. Sure. 3 Q. In other nereis, what I am getting at. Doctor, 4 is just because a Ciiriuia fiber night be less than five 4 5 microtis or ten microns or any other length, it's still an --6 asbestos fiber, would you agree with that? 7 A. Yes. oi"- J. Do you know, Doctor, what resolution a 400 9 power Leitz phase- contrast microscope would have' i o A. ho idea. ii 0. I think you told us earlier you hadn't 12 actually counted fibers under a microscope, but I am i o wondering now if you simply know what the resolution of 14 sue.I a nilcr03cone would be? x 5 .\ ho, 1 have no idea. 16 Q. One final question, Doctor. If a person wif5 i / counting Calridia asbestos fibers, do you agree with me 16 that thv^y should count all Calriuio asbestos fibers even if lb tiiey are less than five microns in length? 20 MR. HARVARD: Object to the form. There 21 is no context in which that question is given. I don't 22 know that it's capable of an answer being in the abstract, 23 unless it's set forth for what purpose this counting or 24 measurement is assumed to be used. 2b ill MR. BhOdivdOd: KIRiil A. Kh/PidDY U A 3 6 OCX AT of (612) 922-1955 1 U. That1 s fair enough. Lot me rephrase the 2 question. Doctor. If a person were testing the air to see a if there were Cairidia asbestos fibers in the area, would 4 you agree with me that that person, to determine the number 5 of fibers in the air, should count all Cairidia fibers, "6 whether or not tnay are less than five microns in length7 7 ilR. HARVARDs X have the sane objection ti as still bv.'ing overly broad and vague for purposes of 9 giving a meaningful answer. Answer it if you ten. Doctor. 10 A. i can't answer it because I a:n not an expert j. i in the counting of fibers and the guys that set up the 12 criteria for fiber counting have their own rules with which i j I aiu not familiar. 14 Q. Do you know if Union Carbide at any time set 15 up its own criteria as to hew to measure or count Cairidia it fibers? 17 A. I have no way of knowing. Id Q. lou never had anything to do with that, I take iy it? 2'J A. Absolutely not. 21 0. Do you know who at Union Carbide would have 22 huu something to do with that? 22 a. 24 LaFranee I would assume either D. W. McDaniel or L. J. j MR. BROu'u30R: That's all I have, Doctor. KIRBY A. KLR'KdDY & ASSOC IATL J (o12) 922-1955 Thank you MR. HARVARD: I have some very brief redirect, probably three to four minutes. Doctor, are you cbie to do that much right now7 THE 'WITNESS: Yes. HR. HARVARD: Does anybody els: have other questions before I do my very brief redirect? MR. BROWN SON: I have a coup l c. more. Bill. Can I just ask them? MR. HARVARD: Go ahead. B Y hi R. BRO WNS'JL: Q. Earlier, Doctor, Mr. Harvard had asked you about Dr. Langer's article that wo asked you about last week. Do you have c.ny reason to believe, as you sit here today, that Dr. Lunger's research on Calridiu asbestos is not valid'-* MR. HARVARD: Object to the form of the question. Tilt Doctor doesn't have Dr. Laager's research in front of him nor am I aware that Dr. Dcrnehl has ever seen Di. Laager's research, nor in fact do we have before us a copy of the conclusions Dr. Langer reached in the paper which he published. Absent Dr. Dcrnehl having an opportunity to review those prior to answering such a question 1 will object to it and I will direct the witness not to uiiswei. KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 1 MK. BROVHJSOd: Well, would you ngrac 2 witn mu. Bill, that Dr. Doinehl did, we spent quite a bit 3 of time doing it. Me uid read the Lunger article last. w.;^k, 4 we showed it to hi ft and presented it to him and he road it. 5 MR. HARVARD: Weren't these questions -6 covereu then. Bob? Quite frankly I don't remember whether 7 he did or not. Why don't you ask him that question. 8 BY MR. BRGWM30N: 9 Q. Do you remember reading the article I showed lu you .about Dr. Lunger's study of the Cisiidna fiber? li A. 1 remember reading an article. It seems to mo 12 tnat (.hat was an article which was devoted to description ij of the asbestos fiber. 14 Q. Right. That's the article. All 1 am 15 wondering. Doctor, and you can just answer yes or no, Jo 16 you nevt any information that there is anything in that 17 article that you can tell us now that you disagree with or 18 that you believe is not valid? I-J MR. HARVARD: 1 have the same objection 20 since he does not have the article before him. He looked 21 at it over a week ago. 1 believe he stated at tno time it 22 was tue first time he had seen that article. I think it's 23 mapproprrate to attempt to cross-examine him over the 24 telephone v.'ith tnat document at this time. I will let him 2 3 answer the question, but 1 place those objections on the KIRBY A. KEUwEDY & ASSOCIATE (612) 922-1955 X iecord Doctor, you can answer 2 a. My answer is simple. I am not in a scientific activity or branch that could comment upon the accuracy end 4 correctness of Dr. banger's article. 5 MR. BR0WN30N: That's all 1 nee!. Thanh "6 you. 7 MR. THDRiJSJO: Bill, before you do a o xi^Oi-LC'Ctf 1 ii H; t. i i tt hi C. l. O may for Celotex in Carey, Canada. u 10 OROSS-EXAMI iJAT' IOb xi LiY MR. THORMoJO: 12 Q. Doctor, good afternoon. 13 MR. HARVARD: Me doesn't much like you, 14 Da. 1 r. 15 3Y MR. THGRR5JJ: lu G. Good afternoon. Doctor. x 7 A. Yes. 1 O 2. Doctor, 1 just have one question. Are you. 10 familiar witn a concept or a hypothesis known as the 20 Stanton hypothesis? 21 A. haver heard of it. 22 MR. TL1GRM3JD: Thank you. Doctor. 23 MR. HARVARD: Anybody else? 24 MR. POLK: Sill, I am not going to have 25 anything further today, but it is iay underst anding from RiRDY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES l C> x 2 ) 922-11)55 i last Friday that wo were going to complete this part of the J deposition so as to afford Union Carbide the opportunity to cither direct or rehabilitate Dr. Dernehl. I am not 4 waiving any right to further discovery of Dr. Dernehl. I 5 want to make that clear on the record. -6 MR. iJARVARD: You have male that 1 statement, Mike. 1 will place a brief statement on the ti record that the reason I requested the deposition be j continued until today was not to attempt to rehabilitate or lu do anything else with Dr. Dernehl other than to ask him tiros x questions Which i find Union Carbide wanted asked and 12 answered by Di. Dernehl on the record. I would like to at least bring the end of -- at tnc end of your questioning 14 bziuy this deposition to a close and to the extent Fedora ? Ruics, state's Court Rules or rales of any otner Court 1 O permits further inquiry of Dr. Dernehl on any subject then 1 / we will take up the matter of that discovery when it's lO requestea. ID ilR. POLK; That's fine. zd zi RED! RECT EX All NATION 22 BY MR. HARVARD: 2 3 Q. Let me go ahead. I will be real quick with 2*i this rouireCL. Doctor, again, 1 am Bill Harvard. * represent Union Carbide along with other attorneys in this KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES lo12) 922-1y5 5 253 1 case. On cross-examination by Hr. Brownson a moment ago ho 2 ashed you about asbestos toxicoLogy reports. Do you rec-tli J tilat7 4 a. Yes. 5 si. v.itn respect to asbestos toxicology reports, -ti whicn were prepared by Union Carbide Corporation, were thr-y 7 required or aunidated by any agency of the Federal or State 3 government that you recall? y m. Rot at that time. 10 Q. were tne-y required or Union Carbide to provide X X those to customers before customers would enter into 12 business relationships with Union Carbide, if you know'1 13 A. Rot that 1 know of. 14 G. hero these asbestos toxicology reports, as 15 well as toxicology reports on hundreds of other chemicals, 1 o marked by Union Carbide provided to the customer ns a 17 service to chose customers, if you know? 13 A. Yes, they were-. iy Q. e.t your last deposition you wore asked about 20 dust studies which nay or may not have been accomplished by 21 Union Carbide personnel at customer plant job sites. Do 22 you recall those questions? 23 A. Not too well. 24 Q. Do you recall the hypotlieticals which Hr. 25 Brownson asked a few minutes ago about what if something K1KBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 1 hud Happened wuere Union Carbide did do such studies at a 2 Conwed plant? J A. Yes, I recall those. 4 Q. Was Union Carbide Corporation required, to th; . 5 oast of your knowledge, by any Federal or State government -6 or mandated by those governments to perform any dust 7 studies at customer job site locations? 8 A. They were not. 9 W. To the extent that Union Carbide may have 10 performed any such studies, ware they don-, to your 11 knowledge, as a courtesy or a service to those customers'* 12 MR. BROWK30ii: Well, I am going to have id to object to that as a hypothetical, to follow form here. 14 MR. HARVARD: Sure. i 5 Bl till. HARVARD: 10 Q. Answer if you can, Doctor. Let me ask the l i question differently.- bo you know whether Union Carbide ir. A o fact provided such dust study services to any customers'" 19 A. i do not know that they ever did. 20 W. Do you cannot commentpositively, negatively 21 or any direction on such a program, is that correct* 22 A. That is correct. 23 d'. Doctor, with respect to Calridia asbestos 24 fibers, what did you recall was generally the length of the 23 fibers which you recall as being Calridia asbestos* KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES 1012) 922-1955 260 1 A. Five microns or less. 2 Q. You answered Mr. Brownson's question a 5 movement ago that in your opinion if Calridia was less than 4 five microns in length it should still be considered by you 5 to be asbestos, is that correct? - 0 i\. That's correct. 7 Q. In tmit regard. Doctor, while you may stil t> consider it to bo asbestos, because of the unique shert 9 fiber nr cure of tne babr id La asbestos, do you hrd'e an 10 opinion as to whether it may cause different reactions in ll an individual' s body if it was inhaled by someone' from i z other long fib-ered asbestos? 15 A. Ylo. 1 4 C. bind whot opinionwould that bo? 15 A. YJoii, the evidencethat we have is that, X O Dumber 1, the short fiber material is cleared from the 17 lungs more rapidly than is the long fibereu material; i ib other words, the particles are small enough that tb ay n re 19 readily moved out of the lung by the cilius of the 2 5 respiratory tract. Furthermore, the very fact that the 21 material is snort fiber, and not only short fiber but a 22 ve.y small diameter, gives it quite different 25 characteristics of the longer stiffer types of asbestos 2 4 thwt we generally express, tint long fibered material. 2b Q. Doctor, does the fact that you still consi is-lXBY A. KFaWEDY & AS30CIATD0 ( G121 922-i955 1 Caiiuria of five or less than five microns in .length to still be asbestos, does that feet change any of the J responses that you gave to me earlier on direct X3rination 4 when I questioned you about the capacity of Cal ridia 5 asbestos to your knowledge to cause such diseases as iunn cancer or atsothc i ioma7 / MR. POLK: I will object to the form of e chat question as being over iy broad and vague* end compound. 9 MR. 3ROWNSOKs 1 also object to it. 1C b MR. HARVARD: j.1 w. if you can answer it. Doctor, pleaso answer it. 12 A. I think the question is best answered by the j.3 snuuxj statement that asbestos is a chemical entity. It 14 doesn't mike any differ cnee whether it's three rui crons, i 9 three-tenths of a micron or 20 microns long, it's still the x U bu,;e chemical entity and it's still in that regard jsbostos. i 1 Q. Doctor, you are now how oid'> lo A . / e . i 9 Q* You have beencross-examined today as w-il as 2 J at your previous deposition about a number of events which 21 occurrcu as far back as 40 to 41 years ago covering your 22 time with Union Carbide, is that correct? 23 A. 40 or 41. 2 4 Q. Doctor, in a number of your responses to 23 questions you stated that you could not recall or you did KiRBY A. KEURDDY & ASSOCIATES (G12) 922-1950 262 1 not recall certain things, certain incidences, is that 2 right? A. Yes, i t i s . 4 'j. Is that in some p;.rt due to the passage of 5 tHue which has occurred since the events on which you ver 1 --6 ercss-examined? 7 A. Undoubtedly. I can't remember everything that a happened. i-!R HAVARD: Doctor, thank you very much. Id Somebody may h.rve a few additional followup questions, but 11 1 don't nt this time. 12 13 14 B1 ivi.l. POLK: RUCRCSS-EXAMiUATiON J. i 2. 1 h..vc three followup questions. Doctor, this x 6 is hi kc Polk representing the Plaintiff age in. Because of IV tho long passage of time, which you wars just asked about Id by hr. harvard, would you agree with me the.t the documents iy that were drafted and written at earlier times, such as in 2U the 1360`s, would necessarily be more reliable than your 21 nieinox y7 22 HR. HARVARD: Object to the form of the 23 question because there is no context in which that is placed. I think it's an open-ended question and I think it's one incapable of answering as asked. Doctor, if you KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 322-1955 1 can answer the question, please answer it z: h. Well, 1 would say that the written word would 3 be mere reliable than my memory at the present time. 4 U. Thank you. Doctor. One ether question. Doctor. 5 When was the first time that you understood that cigarette smoking could be hazardous to a persons's hcaitn? 7 h. 1 would guess probablyin the '3Cs. 8 Q. And, Doctor, do you have a recollection as to y whether or not the government ever required a warning to be 10 placed on packages of cigarettes? n A. Yes. 12 Q. Do you recall, sir,when that was7 Oa. A. no, i dor. *-. 14 u. now, do you have any information that would 15 muxcate to you that the manufacturers of cigarettes had 10 reason to know that cigarettes could be a health hazard 17 prior to the time that the government required warnings on 1 b cigarette packages'3 iy Pi. I am sorry, that's out of my realm of 2u expertise, I can't answer that. 21 MR. POLK: Thank you very much. Doctor. 22 That's all 1 nave. 2j MR. LAURA: Mike, before we go we talked 24 about tins, why don't you pass a copy of that document that z 5 you reaa from over to Bruce? K- RBY A. KE1INEDY & ASSOCIATES (b!2) 922-1955 /, c 4 1 MR. JONES: Before we conclude, we also 2 need to clarify what we are going to do with Exhibit 49, J the signed or the unsigned version. 4 HR. HARVARD: Anthony is walking out now 5 with the signed copy which lie is faxing you all. ~~6 HR. HARVARD: I will give it to Kirby. 7 MR. FOLK: That's fine by me, and I 8 appreciate that. Bill, maybe you can give me an y explanation in written letter or something as to what your lu position is on the signed and unsigned copy? ii HR. HARVARD: I can tell you right now. i 2 i have letters and files from different companies as well l a us in my own files where I have a copy cf the unsigned 14 office copy as well as the signed copy that was sent out i j ana received by somebody. My office practice is we make 16 copies of the letters and stick them in the file before 17 they are signed but, you know, that's -- I think that's rd likely wn it happened here but that's gust a guess on r.y 19 part. I don't know what else it was that Union Carbide did 20 or how they do their business, but I know that's how the 21 U.G. tfavy did it. That's where 1 learned my administration 22 23 THE WITNESS: In the Carbide operation 2`, the signed copies were received by somebody, the file 2 5 copies were not signed. KIRBY A. KENNEDY 6< ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 MR. JONHS: Before we go, Bill, would you advise the Doctor about reading and signing7 MR. HARVARD: Doctor, you have the right to read the deposition to sec if it is in fact an accurate reproduction of what we have said here between us. V.'c- would like for you to review that deposition. I know it. Bi.ay be difficult for you to react it because of the length that may be involved. Gould the. parties agree that Dr. Dernehi could perhaps sit down with someone and read it out loud to hurt? 1 would like for you to review the deposit ion, Doctor. THE WITNESS: If they send me the deposition I would be happy to go ahead and read it and then indicate whatever changes 1 think need to b; made in it and sign it in the presence of a notary. ilE. HAVAKD: Wo would request that Dr. Dernehi oo road and sign.. Dr. Dernehl, any changes which you note which si.ould be jut us should reflect that there ware incorrect -- that the thing was incorrectly written down, not that you would like to change that answer. THE WITNESS: 1 understand. One othtr tning, how long do I have to do this7 MR. JONES: Thirty days from the time thc-t you get the copy. Wo will make clear in the transmittai latter when you have to nave it back. KIRJi' A. KENNEDY L ASSOCIATES (612; 922-1955 1 HR. JOHL.S: Are we aJjournal 2 MR. HARVARD: Yes. J 4 5 V 8 y 10 11 12 1J 1J 18 1/ X tj XX 22 2j 2-i 28 KIRBY A. KENNEDY * ASSOCIATES ^812) 922-1555 .' O ' 1 STATE OF MINNESOTA ) 2 ) S3. COUNTY OF HENNEPIN ) 3 4 Be it known that I took the deposition of CARL U. DLKNEHL, M.D., on the 10 tn and 15th days of Ilarch 1933, at 5 Springfield, Missouri; That 1 was then and there a Notary Public in and for the County of Hennepin, State of Minnesota, and that by 7 virtue thereof, I was duly authorized to administer an oath; 8 That the witness before testifying wr;s by me first 9 duly sworn to testify the whole truth and nothing but th"' truth relative to said cause; 10 That the testimony of said witness was recorded in il Stereotype by myself and transcribed into typewriting under tty direction, and that the deposition is a true record of i 2 the testimony given by the witness to the best of my ability; iJ That 1 am not related to any of the parties hereto 14 nor interested in the outcome of the action; 13 That the reading and signing of the deposition by the witness was executed as evidenced by the preceding 16 page; 1 7 That Notice of Filing was waived. 18 WITNESS MY HAND AND SEAL this 17th day of March, 1939. 19 20 21 Kirby A. Kenr.oay 22 Court Reporter 23 24 25 KIRBY A. KENNEDY a ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 Kirby A. Kennedy & Associates Court Reporters CONFERENCE ROOMS IN MINNEAPOLIS AND ST. PAUL April 14, 1989 Mr. Robert D. Brownson Attorney at Law Stich, Angel1, Kreidler & Muth Suite 120 250 2nd Avenue S.ue Minneapolis, MN 55401 . Re: Frehse vs. Anchor Packing Company, et al. Dear Mr. Brownson: Enclosed please find the Original Transcripts for the deposition of Carl U. Dernehl, M.D. (Volumes I & II). The executed original Reading and Signing Certificate has been inserted into the Original Volume II transcript. Also enclosed is a copy of the Reading and Signing Certificate for insertion into your copy of the transcript. Sincerely, Judy A. Noyed Secretary Enclosure cc w/enclosure: Bruce Jones, Esquire Michael S. Polk, Esquire Anthony J. Laura, Esquire Robert P. Hedrick, Esquire Jerome R. Klukas, Esquire Wayne Hergott, Esquire William D. Harvard, Esquire Lisa R. Micallef, Esquire Richard J. Leighton, Esquire Robert E. Diehl, Esquire Joseph Goldberg, Esquire ^Michael Brinkman, Esquire 219 EDINA EXECUTIVE PLAZA -- 5200 WILLSON ROAD -- MINNEAPOLIS, MINNESOTA 55424 -- (612) 922-1955 1 CARL U. DERNEHL, M.D. 2 3 I, CARL U. DERNEHL, M.D., do hereby certify that I 4 have read the foregoing transcript of my Deposition and 5 belidve the same to be true and correct (or, except as 6 follows, noting the page and the line number of the change 7 or addition desired and the reason why): 8 9 Payts Line Change or Addition Reason . , ic Cdinbiotfdk miiipi of CcnHifrattc* 10 it l/i 5/Yj Lee fare C 11 17 ZL Tertcb es'fc.r' tty, <?fW/((tay tS Z* tjJtt frecessSf u/h<ere. 12 ejerj cj, c(c e ire Z (naxxert 13 I7t> a In &kt fredtoctten (JrcKjr v/rotoy uicfj 14 l<lo tl Sth. JrstcASnS ^hJ inert wiretoy WGrJ 15 tHS (8 0.5" kxl 3nS r mi uJMnf CenUhtr+ij}^ 16 zir VL Sot(\ Cfizritrfcn Utref tostfj ZSS TKcS frrl $stt\y fthKton fay Ccf*/ 17 zsf IS if uJcielA be uJfCtof vJerJ 18 19 20 21 22 1989. 23 2'4 KAK t 25 \(5^eK ^ JA'-iET K. RSEBOLD Not=:ry_Pi.iK.> Gfetne County St?`c ot Missouri My Commission Expires Aug 3,1991 KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 4 PG Lb mXNESS* PG Lb B/iKPk* PG LN Bf^LAUTYbE* PG- -LW BAR1Gb* PG Lb BECBTGLD* PG Lb B E liG G f ROl * * PJ .Lit* 3iEDEON* PG Lb 20 J 1 3LUL* for use, large nurnbar Of BLUE fibe rs -- loose PG Lb BOPE* Psj IjW liiGiKE* PG Lh iiis. j. * Pi h.A iU 174 9 17'5 24 i7j 25 179 22 168 25 189 24 192 2 198 25 199 25 20o 5 210 4G i_ ^ 212 17 5 a 2i2 10 BROWDO* of Plaintiff. ROBERT D. Recro33-1 xir.ilna11 on by i iif have with the Doe tor UR. 8KGWNS0E: Vial! , this is Bob that objection. MR. as being leading. MU. and lacks foundation. MR. ciS L)tfrin^ i. cdu l ny MR. and very suggestive. MR. the answer strikan. MR. . Go ahead. Doctor. MR. it calls for hearsay. MR. here in Minnesota. MR. POLK: Come again? MR. Judge Littman. MR. BRO'WUSON, EROWNSOL' BROWESOM: BROW.-iSO J. BROWNSON: BR0WNS0N: BROWNSOM: BROWNEOU: BROWN3ON: BROWNSON: BROWNSON: BR0VN SON; BROWN3ON: B R0 WN B 0'7: BROWN3ON: ENQUIRE, of the Pago 238 Well, this is Just for the I also object it's leaving 1 furtli'. r I join ir. the I join in that Same objection Same objection I join in that Conference 'What Court"J That's news to KIRBT A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATE'? (612) 922-1935 Fo Ll'i 212 Xi Jr 212 21 238 13 23e> 15 2-.S 15 233 18 238 19 238 22 240 -- 9 240 14 240 16 241 24 242 j 242 2U Z.O-2 22 24u 11 24b 22 2* 3 24 7 25 243 1 lu 248 243 2 [> 252 25 2 j ,i 25 a* rj'St 6 21>4 ll 2ao 1 255 8 23b 3 258 1 2 58 23 253 12 2oo 2 261 9 BROWN* on the East Cousi. MR. witn that procedure? MR. Anybody else? MR. MR. JUNES: This is? MR. This is? HR. BROWNSON: ijbe RO 3 3 - EXA. ilNAT ION BY HR. BY MR. BROWN3ON: Q Bob U. You recall I air. Bob characterization. MR. , I believe, is good. MR. MR. HARVARD: Good. BY MR. fern of tne question. BY MR. the report right now. HR. , * 6 3, is that right? MR. 1 am sorry, '37. ilR. at the suae tirae. BY HR. was just conducted. MR. 1 lost it. MR. of any hypotin.-ticais. MR. is noted. Bill. BY i'l R the question. MR. a yes or no answer. BY MR. to citis question. BY i iR d.SSUidCv4 tO L)C USc'C* BY MR. or E. J. LaFiince. MR. very brief redirect? HR. HiiRv AivL>; Go cinc-ctcl* BY MR. not to answer. MR. him that question. BY i'ii'l m ox Iji11i-j t? c 1 s tir l i c 11) M k. on cz oss-oxaraination by Mr. the hypotliotiesIs wh ich Mr. to those customers? MR. less. d". You answered Mr. vuyui: ana compound. MR. BROWNGON: 3c does that brow-ado:] I just want BROWNSON: 1 have some BROVIN5ON: Br ownson . BROWNSON. BROW* .'SON: Q. Bob BROWNSON representing BROWNSON I represent 3ROW:'33' J'i Well, I think BROWNSON The objection 3ROWMSON Q. Did you EROWN.SON 3ROWNSON Q. Go ahead Excuse me. SROWNSON '67. MR. BROWNSON A two pact- BROWNEON Q. Doctor, 3R0WNG0N Art you going BROWNSON Would you rc ad BROWNSON Objection is BROWNSor Q. Number 1, BROWNSON Well, I don't BROVIN SON Q. Doctor, BRO.bNSON Q. Do you BRQWN30N 0. That's BROWNSON BROWNSON That's all I I have a BROWNSON BROWNSON Q. Earlier, Wall, would BROWNSON Q. Do vovi BR0WN30N That's c-1.1 : BROWNSON r. moment ago b^ BROWNSON asked a few BROWNSON Weil, I an 3 RO VINSON S question a BROWNSON: I also object PG XiL\ BYRNE* PG LN BYRNE* PG LN CALV.ARAS * PG LN 2--6 3 CAREY* tne attorney for Colotex in CAREY, Canada. KIRBY A. KENNEDY U ASSOCIATED (612) 922-1955 4 PC b'j CARLSON* PG LN CARPENTER* PG Li< CmRPEKTER* PG "LuSi CELITE* PU tiN 2-.U 8 CCLGTEX* , I cira Uu; attorney for CELOTrJX in Carey, Cancel -t. PG Lx CHATS NO RTti* P 4J III.* 2-^ 5 2Ji 9 2 ,.o 22 CiiLGTCX,,* letter from Pufahi to Peter , do you knOrti who sr. Peter R. Lear Peter:" this is to Peter CdESTON. While yen aro CHESTON is of Lond.cn, CrIESTQb! of Union Carbide P u LN iG j J is4 y icJi 17 1 o 4 17 185 lo lo5 17 x y-i o 215 i CHRYSOTILE* was a high purity shore fiber of it, was a long fiber raind betw.cn n snort fiber asbestos and u long liber with either Canadian chrysotile asbestos or with between the short fiber between shore fiber CtiRYSOTILE type, Q. Is CHRYSOTILE type which has CERYSOTILE asbestos ami a C.IRYGO''ILL asbestos in CHRYSOTILE -asbestos or CtIRYSOTILR asbestos other CdRYSOTILD such as CiiRYEGTILE or, excuse mo. PG LlI ioj iy Ida 22 184 11 184 25 185 12 185 18 3_j 1 * s onetime; s referred to as the Cetlriuia asbestos from the in tne United States. The of the fibres found in the The Culidria asbestos or the other then that found in the COAL INGA deposit"'' A. CDALINGA deposit7 A. COAL INGA fiber was unique COALIMGA deposit which COALIMGA asbestos, lot me COALIMGA deposit? A. CG.L-.TAdE* KIRBY A. KENNEDY U ASSOCIATES (C12 ) 922-125 5 LN CONNED * 0 and on behalf of Defendant COLD .'ED Corporation. lb asbestos fiber to the CONWED plant in Cloquet, 19 that tney ever sold any to CONNED. MR. HARVARD: 20 HARVARD: I am sorry, it was CONWED? THE WITNESS: 21 Comved? THL WITNESS: CONWED, excuse me. BY MR. 25 that asbestos being sold to CONWED was sold in a open 12 salesperson dealing with the CONWED plant in Cloquet, 19 Bob Brownson representing CONWED. Doctor, can you 2J am Bob Brownson. 1 represent CONWED. We met last week 20 Carbine was m tact sent to CONWED Corporation? A. conducted air sampling at the CONWED plant in 1972, 5 should have informed CONWED that Cairidic could 25 conducted air sampling at the COiTWED premises in 197 2. 1 should have informed CONWED that Calrini a 13 ever did make any surveys at CONWED. Q. Tnat*s why 17 peop.Lt would inform the CONWED people that they 14 air sampling at the CONWED plant in 1972 and i3 in 1372 and ware asked by CONWED whether exposure to 2 did do such studies at a CONWED plantv A. Yes, La CAE WSOIi* LN C A a C x Doha, l L * 25 wxth the fiber type called CROCIOOLITE' A. Not LN CRONCiDL* L CRO'c. mLL* LN CAUSED* LN DaANEiiL* 17 depo sition of CARL U. DERNEHL, M.D., taken 14 by hr. Polk Page 262 DERNEHL Deposltion Exhibit 15 47 marked Page 198 DERNEIIL Deposition Exhibit 16 48 marked Page 204 DERNEHL Deposition Exhibit 2 oi the deposition of Dr. Carl DERNEHL which was begun on 4 Union Corbin a. Dr. DERNSHL is also present. 9 , on telephone hookup. Dr. DERNEHL, you were 3 precludes us from calling Dr. DERNEHL as a witness at 1 attempted to disqualify Dr. DERL-ISHL as an expert in 5 document? (At this time DERNEHL Deposition Exhibit z.) aocument? (/it this time DERNEHL Deposition Exhibit KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 o Pu LIT 2ub 17 208 24 209 7 218 23 2 j7 5 237 22 243 5 254 19 254 -22 255 2 257 J 257 4 2 a 7 10 257 12 257 16 255 9 2o5 17 265 17 267 1 u 1 J 2 68 4 DIl< i t i-jf 3.Ll * bears a typed nano of "C. U. , I have. (At this time signature line for C. U. . BY MR. POLK: Q. Dr. you sent us with Dr. Carl t written stacement by Dr. has previously been marked as aim nor an I u.vare that Dr. he published. Absent Dr. agree with me, Bill, that Dr. direct or rehabilitate Dr. to further discovery of Dr. or do anything els; with Dr. asked and answered by Dr. further inquiry of Dr. tnc parlies agree that Dr. Vie would request that Dr. do read and sign. Dr. MR. HARVARD: Yes. CARL U. DERNEHL, M.D. 1, CARL U. tne deposition of CARL U. DERI'S! IE, M.D., Associate DERNEHL Deposition Exhibit DERNEHL a signature which DERNEHL, could you take n DLRLJEHL. He counsels DERNEHL. " My question to DERNEHL Deposition Exhibit DERNEHL has ever seen Dr. DERNEHL having an DERNEHL did, we spent DERNEHL. I am not waiving DERNEHL. I Wcint. to make DERNEHL other than to ask DERNEHL on the record. j DERNEHL on any subject DERNEHL could perhaps sit DERNEHL do read and sign. DERNEHL, any chang es which DERNEHL, M.D. I, CARL DERNEHL, M.D., do hereby DERNEHL, M.D., on the 10th PG Bill DIBAKT uLO.IEu* PG LN DICKSON* PG LN DOl'SKe* PG LN EDMUND* PG LN ENGLANDER* PG LN ENGLiGH* PG LN 174 14 174 15 174 16 i 3 7 25 r96 5 19o 10 19y 13 EXHIBIT* Page 262 Dernehl Deposition Page 198 Dernehl Deposition Page 204 Demon! Deposition as Union Carbide Corporation this time DERNEHL Deposition an opportunity to look now at , which has been marked as EXHIBIT 47 marked Page EXHIBIT 48 marked Page EXHIBIT 49 marked Page EXHIBIT A, and it is EXHIBIT 47 was marked EXHIBIT 47 to this EXHIBIT 47 to this KIRBY A KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 Pu LN 2uO 5 200 14 200 15 200 15 205 25 204 19 205 18 205 1j 208--24 211 2 2ic 4 218 6 218 10 11 250 o 2 50 21 251 12 255 2 241 6 24 2 lu 2^5 6 2^4 2 EXHIBIT* the study that's reflected as 0. Doctor, with respect to un opportunity to review that the Court Reporter to mark as this time DERNEHL Deposition Report, that's been marked as at the bottom of Page 1 of now to mark as Defendant's trus time DERNE8L Deposition has been marked as Deposition there, trie prior deposition per sc. I have a number of st-e. it would be Deposition MR. P0L.K: Q. Doctor, the , the exhibit. Deposition . Referring once again to . ag<_xin referring to that same the first paragraph of that think has now been marked as , to wnut's been marked as asK that we puli out. It was marked as Dernehi Deposition what wc are going to do with EXHIBIT 47 be done7 A. EXHIBIT Number 47, beve EXHIBIT? A. Yes, I EXHIBIT Number 43 to this EXHIBIT 48 was marked EXHIBiT 43, is one that EXHIBIT 48 and ask you to EXHIBIT 45, which is EXHIBIT 49 was narked EXHIBIT 49, that is to say EXHIBITS' MR. HARVARD: EXHIBITS here before mo, EXHIBIT 32. ME. EXHIBIT, Deposition EXHIBIT 32 that you have EXEIBIT Uumbtrr 32, that's EXHIBIT, you will see in EXHI3IT, you will see that EXHIBiT 49, do you see EXHIBIT 48, which is th EXHIBIT 33, the letter of EXHIBIT 33, you make the EXHIBIT 49, the signed or PG LiN FlURDEINiEK* PC172 172 IjIn j 6 FKEiiEE* A. Frehs-: , Arthur A. and Helen J. FREUSE, FREHSE, and Helen J. husband and vi fe PC Lli'* 213 9 257 1 FRI* believe you had lunch with my is my understanding from last FRIEND here. Mr. Laura' FRIDAY that we were goim' PG LN GAFFNEY* PG LN GASKET* PG Liv GEN Dill V* KIRBY A. KENNEDY 8 ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 PG ui'l GIAM3RUKO* PG LLJ GLlDDLh* PG LN GRENiiALGH* PG --LN GROG Ail* PG Li 4 GUYEK* PG LG GUYEK* PG 21J 13 I'll 2 J0 7 2 jU 14 2^0 ^ i. 2 J1 ij 2 42 17 2*i J f* riALL* memorandum- written by Thomas of the two pages of Dr the- letter now t hu 1_ Dr. producing report was Dr. see in Paragraph 2 that Dr. , you will see t hot Dr. letter of June 7, 19o7 to Dr. letter of Guilt i, 19u7 to Dr. HALL. MR. HARVARD: HALL ' S letter Hated HALL wrote? A. Yes. HALL referring to? .A. HALL is suggesting that hr HALL refers to several HALL from yours.If. HALL, which has previously PG LG *1ALLA * PG Lii HAfLiOHD* P'O Lu liAK'S OK* PG La< HAItAYDA* PG LN 11AUW * PG LG HELLA* PG oH HEnQCK* KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1935 PC LN HENSHAN* PG LN A ILL* PG LN iliJlBCiiORN* PG -LN HOLLOWAY* PG LN holmes* PG U\ hooker* ?G LN iiOKGCKA* PG LN HULL* P LN 1 i'ibj vIjIlLi * PG LIJ lJ i-ij-i A J. *>i o ^ Pw LH JEAGi'lE* PG LN' JOHNS-i I aN VILLE * Po LN Johnson* PG LN JOYNER* PG LN JUNTTi* PG LN KA^i-iL* - K/RBY A. KENNEDY S ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 PG LN KCAL* PG LN 17 3 9 KEENE* In:., GAF Corporation, PG LN KENDALL* KEENE Corporation, PG LN KENDALL* PG LN KETCiiAM * PG LL NE i'CHLL* PG LN luj 14 133 15 1 bo 10 194 19 19-4 2 5 19 a 1 o 196 5 220 13 22b lb 227 5 KING* mined by Union Curbir; ; at city and also processed at ' at King City. Q. Is X-rays which ware taken at work for Union Carbide at the and milling asbestos at tne wno Wi.ro monitored at the L. on your plant visits co plant visit chat you made to from tne inception of the KING City and also KING City. }. Is King KING City in California, K1NC City, California, of .KING City facility wb-.re KING City facility, did KING City facility had KING City, Ca1ifornie KING City, California was KING City mill? A. I PC LN KING* PG LN KINREAD* PG LN KG3ACIK* PG LN KUaAClK* PG LN KIlOoL* PG LN 253 24 LAFRANGE* 8. w. McDaniel or L. J. LAFRANCE. MR. KIkSY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES 1612) 922--1955 PG LN LAMINAR* PG LLJ 2U4 11 204 13 204 21 204 25 205 7 LANE* of thou. SoKietiu.es Dr . Inan 1 G* W as Dr. w.i' drafted personally by Dr. was drafted personally by Dr. reports, did you and Dr. LAML was involved, this LAME more active than you LAME, if you know? A. LAME with consulted ion on LANE report only those PG Lii l9o 1 j 254 13 za4 i 5 254 15 20^1 20 2o4 21 2e5 3 255 lO 2 53 4 LAAGER* asked about a study by a Dr . ned asked you about Dr. you sit hero today, tru.t Dr. The Doctor doesn't have Dr. Dr. DernO`,l has evrr seen Dr . a copy of the conclusions Dr. uoint] it, hie did read the 1 snowed you about Dr . and correctness of Dr. LANGER dealing with LANGER 1 S artic.1 e that we LAM G E R1S research on LANGER15 rescorch in fron DANGER'S research, nor in LANGER reached in the LANGER article lest week, LANGER1 3 study of th-> LANGER'S article. MR. PG LiN LEG* FG j-iii LEE* PG LG Law, *w ij L -. fg tiM LUDWIG* PG LG *0 Jm- iL 5 MAN 1 STo* call with the Court on the MANISTO case at 3:00 hero PG LL' MANNA* PG LG M.-ii.KO* PG LG MaRSR * lUF.SY A. KENNEDY & A3 30CIA"; (dig) 922-1955 12 PG LG MARTIN* 2iC 2 that i wrote to a Ilr. C . E. MARTIN. Q. Do you PG LG MCCARTHY* PG LG MCCUNE* PG LG HCCUGGEY* Po LG 2 5-. 25 MCDANIEL* 1 would assume either B . W. MCDANIEL or L. J. L'lFr .mce PG LG i ICGARY* P O LG rlGGUlLLlVRAY* PG Llii MCJ1LT0G* P O LG MCLEAN* PG LG MCNEIL* PG L;, MLDPORD* PG LG 19'/ 15 199 h 199 lo 199 17 199 20 MELLON* wiiicn Wc^s u-ccoAipi ishsd a t the Carbide Corporation at the a July 196S report from the ana had conducted at the iiivmij been conducted at the MELLON MELLON MELLON MELLON MELLON Institute in Institute? A. Institute which i 3 Institute. As yon Institute at Un ior PG LN 191 1 191 7 91 2 191 24 92 14 1^2 i 6 MEJOTHELIGMA* a medical corn)ition ca lied fiber Caiidria asbestos and findings with respect to fiber Caiidria asbestos and fiber Caiidria asbestos a n a had been any work done with MESOTHELIOMA. MESOTHELIOMA? Do you A. I v*: "i s MESOTHELIOMA..- Do you MESOTHELIOMA at that point MESOTHELIOMA7 A. I MKSOTHELIOMA rer,u 1 ting K-lRLY a. KEEN EDY k ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 PG LN 192 20 192 22 195 8 195 17 193 18 193 20 194 3 194 8 194 '15 200 11 20 214 13 215 2 259 6 2_<9 17 240 lb 2-rl 3 241 16 242 12 245 10 245 18 244 10 244 iy 244 24 245 8 246 2 -x 0 4 ar 24t 15 2h 1 10 24b o 2**b iu 249 5 2 oi 6 MESOTHELIOMA* other long fiber asbestos and had been demonstrated between had been established between other than asbestos causes t%. There have been cases of 0* Are there also Cases of . A. The early history of such as Calidria and literature, exactly how question of whether cancer or fiber Calridia asbestos and fibored Calridia asbestos and the disease process known as of lung cancer and asbestos may very well cause , as of March 31, 1970 that 31, 1970 aid you believe that low enough to protect against value to prevent against for the prevention of would be effective to prevent limit value would prevent per cubic foot would prevent per cubic foot would prevent limit value woulu prevent that induce die hazard of as of August of 1972' A. that Calridia could cause Calridia asbestos would cause Calridia could possibly cause Cairiuia asbestos could cause limit value could cause diseases as lung cancer or MESOTHELIOMA? A. Any MESOTHELIOMA and exposure MESOTHELIOMA and any MESOTHELIOMA? A. There MESOTHELIOMA reported in MESOTHELIOMA that you have MESOTHELIOMA among MESOTHELIOMA? a. MESOTHELIOMA is caused' MESOTHELIOMA tumors MESOTHELIOMA? A. I MESOTHELIOMA? Just did MESOTHELIOMA? MESOTHELIOMA. MR. There is MESOTHELIOMA' A. Ho. MESOTHELIOMA could be MESOTHELIOMA could be MESOTHELIOMA." Do you MESOTHELIOMA' A. Ho, I MESOTHELIOMA. I have no MESOTHELIOMA' MR. MESOTHELIOMA? n MESOTHELIOMA? MESOTHELIOMA? A. Ko, I MR. MESOTHELIOMA' MR. MESOTHELIOMA as of August MESOTHELIOMA must have MESOTHELIOMA? riiv MESOTHELIOMA so there is MESOTHELIOMA' MP. MESOTHELIOMA. Q. So MESOTHELIOMA? MR. MESOTHELIOMA? MR. PG LN MILLIPORE* PG LN MONTERGTTI* PG LN MOSTROM* PG LL M'JHLE* - KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (6x2) 922-1955 PC LC i'-lUi IF TON * PG Ll\ MURRAY* PG LU ;1Y^RS* PG ~LN HALL* PC LI! HAUMAL'D* PC lh NLENAL-i* PC LH HECb* PC Lw JiOCi PG 1,U KORA Ij* Pu LH PADUCAH* P's? Lu PALxiL* PG LN PALME** PG L A P. uCAK* PG LN PATTLKSOJ * PG LN PCM* PG L'i PLELE* * KIRBY A. KE.iNLDY & ASSOCIATES 14 PERLITE* PG Lil PETERS Oil* PG LH POLLAlii* PG - Li\ PAuGE* pg lh Rr i S x i\ S K i * PG LLi RE1CHARD* PG L n Rii D DE o * PG LN kI His S* PG LH ROtIL* PG LN ROGER * c;j La SETTER* PG RE SETTER* PG Eli 2* i 2 SAYERS* so review the noses with Ian GAYERG. PG LN SChlEFER* PG LN SCiiwAfi!** PG LH GCiift EiRv * `Apropos of RIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 PG LK SLLihGFF* PG LU SEaTGL* PG Lll Gii-lb* PG -LN SKOGLUNL* Pu LG GLLEVl,* PG LN skita* PG L ,, GMITii* PG LN EOKEKSjG* PC LG gpaff jkd* PG Lis SPLilCLK* PG Lw STACK* PG L^< GTEP.IUSCuPE* P vs Li.s STGllLiLJG* PG LL STGBASUC* PG LH CYKORa* PG LG TLM* KIRBY A. KFGKED/ Sc ASSOCIATES {Si 2 ) 922-1955 PG Lt* THOMPSON* PG LN THUULCR* PG LN TxrlBROLL* PG -LN 240 19 241 14 TLV* Dtlow the tnen existing available it appears that the TLV oi threshold limit TLV of five million PG LN TOOKGY* PG LN TkEMGLITE* PG LU TUFFLiSX* PG LN UCAK* I'Vj XVJL i1 UL'1 A ii8 o12O 0 * PG LN 1 7G 10 X'/ a J. O JL / 15 17 5 4 1 /o i5 178 2u i i 6 24 1/0 25 17 9 X 180 17 180 24 181 7 181 8 181 16 181 17 182 4 182 10 182 13 lc3 1 Ida 14 UNION* xnc , Tuitiiiur & uiWdli PLC* and cn behalf of Defendant and on bans If of Defendant . We are rieic representing about your background with , what year did you begin with wnat your positions were with . When you began with were the medical director of Doctor, when you worked for in time, if you recall, did magority of chemicals that Carbide sold. Q. Whan , Doctor, which part of the or which division of chemical marketed by medical director for that were being marketed by the toxicology -- members of short fiber asbestos mined by UNION Carbide Corpo:c tion UNION Carbide Corporation UNI On Carbide Corpor al: ion. UNI OK Carbine . Dr. UNION Carbide , is that UNION Carbide '> A. 194 7 UNION Carbide for purposes UNION Carbide you were the UNION Carbide *s Texas City UNION Carbide Corporation, UNION Carbide Cornoration UNION Carbide sold. 0. UNION Carbide prepared UNION Carbide Corpora!ion UNION Carbide Corporit ion UNION Carbide Corporation, UNION Carbide 7 then UNION Carbide Corporalion7 UNION Carbide concerned UNION Carbide at King City KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATED (012) 922-1955 IS LN U N a 01; * 4 from your perspective when UN I ON Carbide began 23 in the Coalinga deposit which UNION Carbide W 'dL S 5 us that when you began with UNION Carbide in 1947 ycu 16 in the medical department at UNION Carbide. Q. 16 associate medical director at UNION Carbide, as to 20 , City, California, of then UNION Carbide employees. 24 employees coming to work for UNION Carbide at the King 2 was mined and milled? A. UNION Carbide ha d a -i 5 , at tnat point in time when UNION Carbide began mining 25 it did or did not. Q. Did UNION Carbide- continue to 4 at the time you retired from UNION Carbide in 1979 16 which he had obtained from UNION Carbide?' A. 7 20 , was it your experience at UNION Carbide the t you 1 Q. What was the policy at UNION Carbide, stated O' 10 came tc your attention which UNION Carbide refused to 24 the Court Reporter to mark as UNION Carbide Cornerat ion 7 which was commissioned by UNION Carbide Corporation 17 which is the only stuay which UNION Carbide had < 5. X at the Mellon Institute at UNION Carbide' s request' 6 that was a study requested by UNION Carbide- to be 7 .a. it would have to be from UNION Carbide. Q. 22 , what did they tell you as a UNION Carbide inedicn ? c f !-- C / differently. Who at Carbide was 0 che-itiiculs distributed by UNION Carbide-3 A. 22 information o: the type that UNION Carbide knew it says 2 or BterKering personnel at UNION Carbide Corporat i on'3 22 Was it your experience at UNION Carbide that, when 9 in the medical department of UNION Carbide ever receive 25 . Q. Are- you aware of UNION Carbide or -- Doctor 1 -- Doctor, are you aware if UNION Carbide ever refused 15 which states at the top " UNION Carbide Internal 13 some issue that I have with UNION Carbide regardinn 17 Doctor, at the time you left UN 10H Carbide in 197 9 did 22 Doctor, at the time you left UN104 Carbide Corporation 25 Doctor, at the time you left 10 Doctor, at the time you left 2 J Doctor, at the tune you left iO , at the time you retired from 9 with any of the attorneys for 23 the medical director for 10 appears on that letter that 22 that report indicates that UNION Carbide Corporation UNION Carbide Corpora cion UNION Carbide in 1970 did UNION Carbide Corporation UNION Catbird' other than UNION Carbide, is that. UNION Carbide recognized UNION Carbide, as cf the 4 of that report, in your mind UNION Carbide did not 13 And presently with you are UNION Carbide attorneys 9 asbestos fiber was sold by UNION Carbide? A. At 13 that would indicate when UNION Carbide ceased i5 . Q. So you don't know if 4 , what studies, if any, did 5 , to your knowledge, on UNION Carbide sold open UNION Carbide perform, to UNI-'N Carbide asbestos KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 O LN UtJOli * 5 to February 6 ot 1966, that 22 this is to Peter Cheston of iy me that at least according to 20 of Hay d, 1969 someone at 20 A two p-.ige xetter on 21 you bfciicva that as of 1967 5 that as of June of 1967 17 , that as of August of 1972 -12 you believe that ,_is of 196 7 iy toxicology report from. 2 3RO vlibOll: (J. Number 1, if 4 , Doctor, cio you believe those 24 . Assume hypothetically that 1 1972. Do you believe those 12 1 know of no evidence that lb . A. I would expect that I you believe. Doctor, that if .13 . 2 Do you believe. Doctor, if question. Q. If those 23 in August of 1972 who within 14 . Q. Do you know if 21 . w. Do you know who at y deposition so as to afford xl those questions which i find 23 cm Bill liar vara. I represent 6 , which were prepared by 10 g. i7ere they required or 12 business relationships with 10 of other chemicals, marked by XX not have been accomplished by 1 something had happened whore 4 , 1 recarl those. Q. 'Was 9 Q. To trie extent that 17 . Do you know whether 2 2 ago covering your time with 19 know what else it was that c K* oHi UNION Carbide 1 s, "Position UN 101.7 Carbide Limited, 3 UNION Carbide 1 s Asbestos UNION Carbide bolieved UNION Carbide stat ion-ary. UNION Carbide should !r'v! UNION Carbide should, have. UNION Carbide Corpore tion UNION Carbide should have UNION Carbide was in fact UNION Carbide personnel Carbide industriaj UNION Carbide per soar, 1 UNION Carbide personnel UNION Carbide people over UNION Carbide people would UNION Carbide pc r sonne .1 UNION Carbide personnel UNION Carbid a persons:I UNION Carbide ecuId they UNION Carbide at any time UNION Carbide would have UNION Carbide the UNION Carbide want ed ask ed UNION Carbide; along with UNION Carbide Corporation, UNION Carbide to provide UNION Carbide, if you know UNION Carbide provided to UNION Carbide per son riel at UNION Carbide did do such UNION Carbide Corpor at ion UN I ON Carbide may ns ve UNION Carbide in fact UNION Carbide, is that UNION Carbide did or how LN v >-< LL* LN VIDEEN* i-jU VJ k KIRBY A. KENNEDY k ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 PG LW rt/vLDR* PG Ll'i YJALDER* PG LU W.^LER* PG--LN WALSii* PG LG WAPPEG * PG LG Vv!G I L* i'G i-iL WEL3GG* PG LN V/ELSii* PG GA WGY E K:i A EU .> l. R * PG GiS WlGrGlAE* PG j_iG Vv *LLARL>* PG Lil-I WILEGW* PG jju vvGLPP* PG LU wompus* PG LN WuGLERY * PG LG WRAP* - In 1-UM \. KL Hii'.DY L AGGOCiATGG {t' 12 ) 922-1955 March 20. 198 Mr. Bruce Jane Attorney at Lav; Faegre & Benson 2200 Korwest Center 90 S. 7th Street Minneapo3is, MN 55402 Re: Frehse vs. Anchor Fackino Company, et al. Dear Mr. Jones: With regard to the above-entitJed matter , encloced pleort find the Reading and Signing Certificate for the Deposition o! Carl D. Dcrnehl , M.D. (Volumes I & II). Would you please have the deponent according to the instructions thereon. transcript or a copy of the transcript. designated on the Certificate. complete his Do not write All changes Certificate in the must be so Upon completion of the Certificate, please return to me for proper distribution. Do not return your transcript copy, just the Certi.ficate . The deponent has thirty days from the date of this letter tc complete the Certificate. Sincerely, Kirby A. Kennedy Court Reporter Enclosure f. 1f h Michael Rvi nk>'' Es^ui re 219 EDINA EXECUTIVE PLAZA -- 5200 WIlLSON ROAD MiNNEAPOl S. MINNESOTA 55424 _ (612) 922-1955 Ccr.i ixentici Special Kepcr; 3--7C 7 Paget j* L C I V l u aug 3: h?: H. C. LIVuNSOn.i, D. Chemical Hygiene Fellovahip MELLON INSTITUTE Carnegie-Mellon University Calidria Asbestos-Resin Crade HO 244 Tracheal Insufflation of Rat Lungt with Interpretation cf Pathology after 30, 60, 90 and 180 Daye i Editor: C. P. Carpenter Concrlbutora: D. L. Geary, Jr., E. R. Kinkead, R, C. Myers, D. J. Kaehreiner For: UNION CARBIDE CORPORATION, Chemicals and Plastics Operations Dlvielon Sample A 500-gram sample of Resin Crade RC 244 CCC Calidria Asbestos was received 11-30-70, from King City, California, pursuant to arrangements made by Paul McDaniel of the New York Office. The sample was identified by the Chemical Hygiene Fellovshi #33-251. " Tracheal Insufflation A IT (L'/V) suspension of the RC 244 sample was prepared In 0.851 saline. All needles, s/ringes and suspensions were sterilized prior to use. Either 1 ml or 0.5 ml amounts of the sterile 1Z suspension were injected into the rat lung through the trachea, exposed by blunt dissection, after a midline cervical incision. Following injection of these 200 to 300 gram, male albino, Harlan Vistar rata the incisions were closed with Michael wound clamps until healing ensued. A total of 13 rats were dosed with 1 ml and 15 with 0.5 ml of the 1Z suspension while 11 control rats received 1 ml of sterile 0.85Z NaCl. Three rats from each asbestos dosed group and 2 controls were killed for histopathologic examination of -the lung after intervals of 30, 60 end 90 days which left groups of 4, 6 and 5 rats on the 1 ml, 0,5 ml eabestoe and control for the 180 day sacrifice. . Summary of Microscopic Pathology Tound 30, 60. 90 and 180 Pars Following Tracheal Insufflation of Rats The 30-day pathology was marked by the presence of granulation tissue with chickening of the-structural elements of the lung (stroma) and Che accumulation of giant cells often associated with foreign bodies. Ofra * A f BEPG. EXK.iLZJ _____ KIRBY A. KENNEDY COURT REPORTER F.e;,rr: Fift 2 After 60 deys one rat on the 0.5 &I dotage level had' inflammation and in growth of connective tlaeue which blocked e terminal bronchus. Two of 3 rata os both the 1.0 and 0.5 ml doaage level had atalectaala (collapse) of one or more lobes of the lung. Pibrotic foreign body nodules were present in all cases. After 90 days there was chronic foreign body pneumonia in 2 of 3 rats at both dosage levels, fibrotic foreign nodules in 3 of 3 and emphysema in 2 of 3. Chronic inflacaatory cell foci and atelectasis were present* Bronchioles were dilated ir. 2 of 3 rats on both dosage levels and all but one on both dosage levels had some lung hemorrhage. '. The final 180 day sacrifice revealed interstitial pneumonia in 4 rats on the 0.5 ml dose. This is a chronic form of pneumonia of interstitial tissue with decrease of the normal lung tissue. Atelectasis was present in the 4 rats on 1 ml and on 1 rat on the 0.5 ml dose of asbestos with the 5 controls normal. Fibrotic foreign body tissue was present in all dosed lungs with none in the controls. Fink hyalin material was found in 2 of 4 lungs from rats on the 1 ml dose while in 3 of 4 there was a bluish homogeneous material evident. In essence, a total of 10 of 13 rats on the 1 ml dose and. 12 of 15 on the 0.5 ml dose had fibrotic foreign body nodules or tissue. There were 3 cases of emphysema on the high dose and 4 on the low dose and 1 in the control. Atelectasis (essentially collapse of lung alveoli) was present in 9 rats on 1 ml and 6 on. 0.5 ml of asbestos with none reported in the controls. In general, because of the over whelming preponderance of effect in the asbestos dosed lungs versus^ the controls, we have sufficient evidence of damage to warn us to do our best to prevent inhalation of concentrations of asbestos in excess of the Threshold Limit Value proposed for 1970, (Threshold Limit Values of Airborne Contaminants and Intended Changes. Adopted by ACGIH for 1970. American Conference of Governmental Hygienists, 1014 Broadway, Cincinnati, Ohio 45202). Summary Tables for each of the four sacrifices are included. Detailed pathology reports on each animal are available and copies can be furnished if the need for them arises. A literature review prepared in connection with another request for information is attached although not requested. Acknowledgments: Inhalation Studies Typed: September 7, 1971 - md Charles ?. Carpenpdr, Ph.D. Administrative Fellow Daniel L. Geary, Jr., M.Ed. Research Associate Edwin R. Kinkead, B.S. Fellow Roy C. Myers, B.S. Research Assistant Donald J. Kachrelner, B.S. Rbbbbtch Assistant Tracheal Insufflation to Rati Sacrificed 30 Day Afrter Doting TOTAL NUMBER EXAMINED CROSSLY: LUNG: Number Examined Pneumonia Hemorrhage Flexural adhesions Stromal thickening Foam cell accumulations Granulation tissue foci Multinucleated giant calls Abscess bronchopneumonia Round cell accumulations TRACHEA: Number Examined Chronic tracheitis - (M) CG) ' <c>- (C) (M) (H) (M) (K) CM) CM) (M) (M) Ml of IX Solution 1, 0.5 0.0 3 3 3 1 1 3 3 3 3 0 0 '3 0 3 3 3 0 2 2 2 3 2 1 0 3 0 2 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 2 1 The folloving tissues vera examined microscopically on all .animals: Lung, Liver, Kidney, Heart, Spleen, Adrenal, Thyroid, Parathyroid , Trachea and Esophagus. G Gross M Microscopic Table 34-20 Tracheal 'insufflation to Rats Sacrificed 60 Days After Dosing TOTAL NUMBER EXAMINED GROSSLY: LUNG: Number Examined Hemorrhage Pneumonia Atelectasis v Edema V; . Hemorrhage Atelectasis Fibrotic foreign body nodules Bronchiolitis fibrosa obliterans KIDNEY: Number Examined------------ Round cell accumulations HEART: Number Examined Focal myocarditis MUSCLE: Number Examined Purulent mass 'Large suppurative process, striated muscle (M) (G> (G) (C) CO CM) CM) CM) CM) CM) (M) (M) (M) CM) (C) (M) Ml of 1* Solution 1_ 0.5 0.0 33 2 33 00 2 1 33 0 02 0 1 2 ' . 10 0 22 0 33 0 01 0 33 2 10 0 33 2 01 0 10 0 10 0 1 r\ xhe folloving tissues were examined microscopically on all animals: Lung, Liver, KidneyT^Reirt, Spleen, Adrenal, Thyroid, Parathyroid, Trachea and Esophagus. C - Gross M - Microscopic Rtr-rr: 3--`C I f i Table 34-21 Tracheal Insufflation co Rata Sacrificed 90 Days After Dosing TOTAL NUMBER EXAMINED CROSSLY: LUNG: Nusber Examined Pleural adhaaioni Hemorrhage Edema ` Pneumonia Chronic foreign body pneumonia Fibrotic foreign body nodules Emphyaene Chronic inflammatory cell foci Round cell foci Atelectasis Bronchiectasis Stromal thickening Hemorrhage Inhaled blood * KIDNEY: Number Examined Hydronephrosis Hydronephrosis Round cell focus TRACHEA: Number Examined Chronic tracheitis HEART: Number Examined Myxoid change, interstitium CM) (C) (C) (C) (O CM) CM) CM) CM) CM) CM) CM) CM) CM) CM) CM) CC) CH) CM) CM) * CM) CM) CM) Ml of 12 Solution 1, 0.5 0.0 3 3 0 0 3. 3 2 3 2 3 0 3' 2 1 3 o - 3 0 0 0 3 2 3 0 3 3 2 2 3 3 2 3 2 3 1 3 2 0 2 1 3 0 0 1 3 1 3 1 2 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 3 1 1 0 3 2 3 0 The following tissues vers examined microscopically on all animals: Lung, Liver, Kidney, Heart, Spleen, Adrenal, Thyroid, Parathyroid, Trachea and Esophagus, C - Cross M Microscopic i Refer; 3s-v ?Lt( ! Table 34-22 Tracheal Insufflation tc Rata Sacrificed 180 Days After Doing TOTAL NUMBER EXAMINED CROSSLY: LUNG: Number Examined Edema Pneumonia Acalaecaala * Emphysema Emphysema Acelaccaals Inhalation pneumonia Interstitial pneumonia Abacaaa bronchopneumonia Suppurative bronchiectaais Acute bronchitia Lymphoid cell aeeumulationa Foam cell aeeumulationa Fibrotic foreign body tiaeue Granulation tiaeue foci Pink hyalin material Bluiah homogeneous material Numerous mononuclear cells Mucoid infiltration Proliferation bronchiole epithelium LIVER: Number Examined Bile duct proliferation Round cell foci KIDNEY:. Number Examined Hydronephrosis Sand caleull - Hydronephrosis Sand calculi ` Dilated tubules Pink casts Interstitial nephritis Cellular infiltration Slight tubular regeneration Moderate tubular regeneration TRACHEA: Number Examined Acute tracheitis Chronic tracheitis 00 (C) (O (C) (G) (M) 00 (M) (M) (M) (M) (M) OO 00 00 00 01) 00 CM) 00 00 (M) (M) 01) 00 (C) (G) (M) 00 00 00 00 00 0!) 00 00 (M) (M) Ml of 12 Solution 1, 0.5 0.0 4 4 2 4 2 0 1 4 1 0 0 1 0* 3 2 4 6 6 0 5 0 0 2 1 0 4 0 0 0 0 1 6 5 5 1 1 1 1 1 0 0 0 1 0 1 0 3 0 0 `' 1 0 2 3 1 2 0 4 0 1 4 0 0 0 0. 0 1 0 0 0 6 2 0 6 1 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 1 5 1 0 5 0 0 0 0 02 02 01 0i 2 1 0 0 01 00 46 10 04 3 1 5 0 0 The following tiaauea were examined microscopically on all animals: Lung, Liver, Kidneys, Heart, Spleen, Adrenal, Thyroid, Parathyroid , Trachasi and Eafophagus* G - Cross M - Microscopic cissi > Report pi-70 Reft 6 Asbestoe Addlngley, C. C, - Asbestos Dust and Its Measurement. Ann, Ocfcup. Hyg. 9_i 73 (1966). Anon. Occupational Hazards of Asbestos. CIS (International Occupational Safety and Health Information Centra.) (Abstracts on Asbestosls 1959 to 1967). Collins. T. F., Asbestos the Lethal Dust. S. Afr. Med. J. 42i 218-9,(1968). As cited in Index Medicus, 9(08), 1968, p, 70. Committee on Hygiene Standards. Hygiene Standards for Chrysotlle Asbestos Dust. Committee on Hygiene Standards of the British Occupational Hygiene Society. Enterline, F. E. Asbestos-Dust Exposures at Various Levels and Mortality. Arch. Environj^Jlea^th, Jl5, p, 181, (1967), ~ Kogan, F. M.; Svirskii, E. L.; Belobragiaa, C, V. Gig. Tr, Prof. 2abol. 13. pp. 9-12 (Russ) (1969). Hygienic Characteristics of the Dust Generated in the Production of Asbestos-containing Thermal Insulating Materials Asbestos Varmiculite and Asbestos Perlite. As cited in C.A. V. 72(26). p. 253(136090y) T970. Parazzi, Elena, ec al. Cytotoxicity of Asbestos Dusts. Med. Lav1968. 59(10), 561-76 (Eng). As cited in C.A. Vol. 71, 02, p. 256(6374n) (1969). Report from a Working Group of the International Union Against Cancer. The ' Association of Exposure to Asbestos Dust and Cancer. A5241-J^CA^2iE2& ,8, P 267, (1965). Roach, S. A. Hygiene Standards for Asbestos. Ann. Occuo. Hyg. 13, pp. 7-15, (1970). Selikoff, Irving J., at al. Asbestos Exposure, Smoking, and Neoplasia. JAMA, 204, 02, p. 106/104, 1968. Timbre11,. V., at al. A Simple Dispenser for Generating Dust Clouds from Standard Reference Samples of Asbestos. Ann Occuo. Hyg. 11. pp. 273-281*1968. Asbestosls Balzer, J. LeRov, Industrial Hygiene for Insulation Workers, J. of Occup. Med. 10, #1, (1968). Gross, Paul and R. T. P. deTreville. Experimental Asbestosls. Arch. Environ. Health, 15, p. 638 (1967). Gross, P. and R. T. P. deTreville_JExperiaental Asbestosls. Studies on the Progres siveness of the Pulmonary Fibrosis Caused by Chrysotlle Dust* Arch. Environ. Health. 15, 638-649 (1967). As cited in Industrial Hygiene Digest, 32. * May 1968, 0449. S* McDonald,-'J. C., at al. Mortality in Chrysotlle Asbestos Mines and Mills of Quebec. Arch. -Environ.' Health. -22. 677-86, June 1971. As reported in the JAMA p. 1658, June 7, 1971, Vol. 216 No. 10. ~* tat Dus i Editorial. Asbestosis in Urban Populations. JAMJML96: 732* (1966). Croat. Taul, et al, Aabeatoa Veraua Nonasbestos Fibers. Areh. Environ. Health. 2C, pp. 571-578 (1970). Holt. F. F., J. Kills, and D. X.. Young. The Early Effects of Chrytodle Asbestos Dust on the Rat Lung. J, Pathol. & Bacteriol., 87: 15-23 (1964). Hygienic Standards. Ind. Hvg. J.t 19(^2), c. 161, (1958). Karr, William T. Asbestos Exposure During Naval Vessel'Overhaul. AIHAJ. 25 (03), pp. 264-268, May-June 1964. Thomson, J. C, and W. M. Graves, Asbestos as an Urban Air Contaminant. Arch, Pathol. 81: 458 (1966). Westlake, George E., Harlan J, Spjut, and Marilyn K. Smith. Penetration of Colonic Mucosa by Asbestos Particles. An Electron Microscopic Study in Rats Fed . Asbestos Dust. Lab. Investigation. 14: 2029 (1965). Analytical Crable, John V, Quantitative Determination of Chrysotile, Amoslte and Crocidolite by X-ray Diffraction. AIHA, Vol. 27 (#3), Kay-June, 1966 - p`. 293-298. Crable, John V., and Marta J. Knott, Application of X-ray Diffraction to the Determination of Chrysotile in Bulk or Settled Dust Samples. AIHA, Vol. 27 (#4), July-Aug,, 1966 - p. 383-387. Crable, John V,, and Marta J. Knott. Quantitative X-Ray Diffraction Analysis of Crocidolite and Amoslte in Bulk or Settled Dust Samples. AIHA, Vol, 27 (5), Sept.-Oct., 1966 - p. 449-453. Lynch, Jeremiah R., and Hovard E. Ayer. Measurement of Dust Exposures in the Asbestos Textile Industry. AIHA, Vol. 27 (#5), Sept.-Oct., 1966 - p. 431-437. The Method For Determining Aabeatoa Dust Concentration. This publication sells for $1.00 and may be obtained from the Asbestos Textile Institute, P, 0. Box 239, Pompton Lakes, New Jersey 07442* AIHA, Sept,-Oct., 1965. Review Tissue Response to Asbestos (Report-of a Meeting by C, N. Davies). Ann. Occup. Hyp. Vol, 13 pp. 241-245. Pergassnon Press, 1970. V1&J3 rip or: j Medical Directors 4 - C. U. Deme'nl 1 - E. Q. Hull 1 - R. E. Joyner 1 R. J. Sexton 1 - T. X. Spencer Other Distributions 1 - M. B. VerNooy 2 - N. H. Ketches " 1 - P. W. McDaniel 1 - R. R. Guest Libraries 2 - Chemicals Division (1 set each Library) Building 701 end 770 Libraries South Charleston, Vest Virginia Project Initiator~-to distribute as you see fit. No copies have been sent to others in your business or operations teas, except summaries to the R/D Directors, V.P.'s and Libraries. More copies will be furnished upon your request. Project Initiator 6 - F. V. McDaniel ****************************************** *r (i COLL1 ED t G, H. Daniels 1 < R. I. Koaglin ( J. J. Smith 1 T. T. Szabo 1 - T. H. Welch 1 - N. L. Zutty it-i .. :r**'0wr., UMMARof all reports ere sent to List A at sonthly ~~ intervals List A recipients are: 1 - J. V. Murray, Jr. 1 - W, B. Ackert 1 - L. Shechter * 1 - E. A. Barr 1 - Plasties Division Library 1 - F. V. Tauber ----------------- Bound Brook, N. J. 1 - Mining and Metals Library Tuxedo, N, Y. 2 - Chemicals and Plastics Division, Bldg. 701 & 770 Libraries ' South Charleston, W. Va. 1 - R & D Library -' Tarrytown, N. Y. V A. O' 4 ASBESTOS TOXICOLOGY REPORT It'has been known for years that some persons working in asbestos production were prone to develop a disabling lung disease. In time, this condition became known as asbestosls and was related to exposure to high concentrations of asbestos dust. With further experience, it was found that m could work with asbestos without development of lung disease if dust concentrations were kept below a certain level. It has been generally accepted that a worker will not develop asbestosls if he is exposed to no more than 5 million particles per cubic foot of air, even if this exposure continues for his entire working lifetime. Although no cases of asbestosls are known to have occurred when exposures have been maintained at or below this level, the ACGIH (which sets the threshold limit value (TLV) in the U. S. A.) has Indicated they Intend to lover the TLV for asbestos to 2 million particles per cubic foot in an effort to Increase the safety factor Incorporated in the limit. The U. S. Department of Labor has already issued a regulation under the tfalsh-Healy Act placing th TLV for asbestos at 2 million particles per cubic foot for public contracts in which they have jurisdiction. This concentration of dust is generally not visible in the average work area unless a beam of light causing a Tyndall effect is present. Usually the dust concentration must be from 8*10 million particles per cubic foot (MPPCF) before its presence is visible in average lighting conditions. . Several years ago, it was reported that there was an increase in the incidence of cancerous tumors, especially of the lung, associated with asbestosis. Recently there have been reports of some cancers occurring in individuals exposed to asbestos dust, but who have not developed clinical asbestosis. It is believed by most authorities that these cases have been associated with exposures significantly exceeding the Threshold Limit Value. A type of cancer named mesothelioma has been noted to be associated with asbestos exposure in recent years. These tumors, while rather few in number to date, may occur in individuals with histories of only slight exposures, and that as much as twenty to forty years earlier. There is considerable evidence that crocldollte is most frequently associated with mesotheliomas. From the data available it appears that the TLV of S MPPCF may not be low enough to protect against mesothelioma. Research on the problem continues. - KK. WKLtLSi. ___________-s / <sje* KIRBY A. KENNEDY COURT REPORTER UNION CARBIDE CORPORATION CHEMICALS AND PLASTICS 270 PARK AVENUE. N.Y..N.Y. 10017 Control of asbestos dust exposure le therefert neccstsry. Thf control methods arc. the standord ones applicable to a variety of dusty operations. They include closed flow systems, wet processes where possible, and adequate exhaust ventilation where openings in the system are necessary. Pelletizing is sometimes used to improve the handling characteristics of otherwise dusty materials. Where satisfactory containment to stay within the Threshold Limit Value is Impractical or impossible, efficient and reliable respirators are available for the protection of the employee. A program of environmental monitoring la highly desirable to determine that Threshold Limit Values are not being exceeded. In manufacturing industries it'would be desirable to know the dust concentrations where the asbestos is dumped from bags into the process. Concentrations should also be determined where dusting occurs -in finishing products. While initial dust determinations should be made at frequent Intervals, once the level has been established as satisfactory, the frequency may be extended to occasional tests to assure continuation of a satisfactory condition. Pre-employment and periodic physical examination of workers are desirable. These should include chest X-rays to insure that the worker has no chest condition prior to work with asbestos and to determine that no lung changes are resulting from work with asbestos. . It is believed that the addition of asbestos at the proposed levels during the manufacture of products would be harmless to the consumer. Total dusting would have to be well in excess of any levels acceptable to the consusmr for the asbestos concentrations to approach the Threshold Limit Value. In conclusion, while asbestos dust in excess of the Threshold Limit Value is potentially harmful, as are many other dusts encountered in industry, it is as readily controlled as other such dusts and it can be used safely with appropriate precautions. 5/8/69 Industrial Medicine And Toxicology Department Union Carbide Corporation ;fv L: nrf- ... .< i e Hi OH U C'msri* <4*1**** C*fr * A f ~ ; f\ p (- r. r* * f V v * f% t : >h-. C. S. itetttn CheciCAls 6. Plastics 17/Q Leonia DJvd, Los Argil**, Calif. SGG33 boc: M. B. VtrSooy - TT Ij. J. Fitzpsirlcfc - U W. C. Farrell * LA. J.shn Ktyera - Kin? City c * 9i Karic'r ij, !.0 Cfi,`*st'it S./-S Hadi.el B-.-pr-.-tr.ir.; Ki (. t ! V t nADC\ pV ,, 1 cv* CCC -CAuiOR .rise c:rv, r.A. isiirik| ||U **** Toxicity of Cali:!' i> A*, li-, rr.es Asbestos hs practically r.o acute toxicity regardless of its type or font. The berm associated with Asbestos is su-v* the fibrgenic properties cf the inheiod dust. This vsuelly i* seer, only after prolongv.d exposure t&es.xured In t*r* of 13-20 ysare although cuses rarely vill occur in less tin*. Because of *.bi rather unique Rtvuctur* vh^rtctcrisrics of Cc.li.3r in Asbestos, there was concern that it might be unwauelly fifacogeci r an:! perhsps civc*. fin acute asbestoais. To test this ;i06ihility, CaUdii* Asbestos vos 5.njs*tci- toco rats and rabbits iatraperitonesUy using * standard Inrg fibre ashestos as a contro*. the result* of this teat showed Calidrio Asbestos to b<s slightly snore fibrogenlc then long fibre asbestos but the difference %a$ not sc great as to suggest an unusual degree of hazard, ?ic*r this X conclude thsc Che case precautions to avoid breaching asbestos dust Rust be observed whether the dust be from Celidria Asbestos or fret* a standard long fibre fona. 3o&e people believe there Z s o otsocisiion between o.cvcsurfc to aabastos dust sod the development of lung cancer and a^esochaliowa. There ie no information itgsruiug Cs lldria Asbestos ir. this rtsp*;ct is yet. It would b* prudent to assume chat Cfilidria Asbestos will fcshtac lire other asbestos in this regard. CUD:dp C. 0. -Oernohl, H. D. Associate Medicsl Director _ A U 3V53 hsrsif (mu. m.11. - ---.........3 77V I &9 *~KIRgYAINNDY ' COURT REPORTER - fir. Juter i. chrmr Union Ur bids 0 .'i U r Vint..- f L.'! ^ r., tXj.jf Pctci;- Your suggestion tbi ws consider Including "UK paper inchtriry" tottxnii in out u-neral S~leu tlectinj, lz well taV.co - and 1 pla:'. to rwvi*v t^.c notr^ with I.n Ssycre. oi your letter on to0* 1co 1 ogIc4 1 liKlOk tei'ilWt c 'if .loi * v_` hive levlCkCb the tv/.i ux'oiptft yi-. aunt Ui* with Dr. C *i . r- ti ' I . l.c coulee is t!-.-t the p iperr "tio rut hy any or-tu (.Tcc.ru in, ut.t vr j-r \ .>K pvoci' nrr vc they proti'^c tc. <it> if. ' FurtKc): "ftit ptiitl--:'. ;t .i*. th.it ir I'r.itc J StJtQf cxj-erltr.ee thr.tc Uae br :n no ir.crt.'dc^ 1: ' ?<*. r. t t / . iun~ c u.r cr vher. tht thrftEl.t'id lir.M h.Te net b.tr er.cectlr.' " Pron past publication*, vc have uUc usC*i` the K:rtn.'Ci it- orgmis. contaminants, vith the thought that proof of absence oC poiycywlic txcicutief- in Ur.lon Carbide sebestos Bight bo useful , Us are pi atoning *xtracticui studies onu analyses for J/-bonno(u)pyrcnt' fey tcchnlquca snplsjyjd at South Charleston, wo will lot you know the results, probably in an appropriately written statement by the. Dernehl, The matlfei of soft pfipere, facial and other tissues, hat hi *.n a to* curring svhjcct with u. frio-rily this is a question of shin acruitii ;tlur.- Whllc the ovor~all statementh by our Industrial faullcino 4nc Tor.tculugy ptopln should suffice -- wo hovo given thought to "patch teats.' which, Incidentally, cost appreciably to run. Xt would be BOaniny.lesa to conduct surh tetes with pancr crntainlnv, UCC .mbestug. since the other coa^onents bf tht furnish bear on the results. Iteoee we ere considering patch tests using straight asbestos -- which, of course, would absolve only our product. The other component* (including, os you know, variety of organic coq>ounde) of spuciflc furnlshoi would feave to be considered by the paper cunpsny. involved. We shell let you know our plans* b ** . ` * . Very truly yours. A.B.Pcf 3hl :dl . ic; )K T. Reiuhard A. f. i'A!i{,t6 1. F. liicy i `) iffltx KIRPY A. KENNEDY vCoytzumomLf; ~ ` ' 4,11 -> . Z PLAIKHti i LXKI!I teim. W^^snseisussfti9ttt'<wtawwr - *. - % *J * jk \J O 1 1 1415 TX/MLF --------------- 13 June. 1967 ' Mr. Frank Dexter Union Carbide Corporation Chemicals It Plastiea Division 270. Park Avenue New York. N.T. 10017 Re: ASBESTOS TOX1COLQCY Daar Frank: X as soma that yen ara awara of the occasional reports concerning possible toxicity and carcinogenic properties of asbestos. Dr. Dernabl of Union Carbide Medical Department has followed thio area vary closely and has maintained a vary dose check on the working conditions at the King City plant. . Perhaps the most publicity and "interest" in this problem has been in England. There, only two ports will * handle normally bagged . asbestos, at the other ports the Union of Dock y/orkers have refused to handle the shipments ox asbestos. We have been permitted to bring in eeveral shipments with not very favorable reauhs. The last shipment* because of rather poor handling and packing, waa in bad shape with many broken bags and much free asbestos. Copies of reports on these shipments have undoubtedly already dome to your attention. Mr. Sayers of the asbestos group in UCL has written a repot? summarising the findings tad feelings concerning asbestos in the U.K. X assume that you have also seen a copy of this report. X am ^closing with this letter, a copy of tho comments Dr. Xhamehl made la response to this report from England. My malm purpose in writing this to you la to confirm that at tho July asbestos meeting in Ojrford we will implement the - suggestion mad# by Mr. Sayers and agreed to by Dr. Detnehl that Union Carbide join la the cooperative standard sample comparisons to the exteat of arranging for standard samples to bo forwarded to Niagara Falla for trsee element analysis. Za Joining tho program to this extant wo will bo to keep in dose contact with the progress of this study and will also be aware of any adverse findings which may develop. f ^ v. 1 assume that this Is satisfactory to you. Wo will, of course, keep you directly advised of any Information that may devebp over here. If these findings or any others of which wo may not^ be aware cause any change in marketing plans or programs for asbestos, wo as suma you will immediately advise us.___________ '. l&*c*AJ DEPO. EXK. LJ !------------ . . ,*' *. Y A. KEHNEDY UNION CARBIDE CORPORATION 279 AAA* AVENUE. NEW YOAK. N. T. 10317 ASBESTOS TOXICOLOGY R1PCRT Ie li*s been known for cany years ckac some persons working in asbestos production ware prono to develop a disabling lung disease, in time, this condition becace known as ashescosis and was related to ex* posure to high concentrations of asbestos dusc. With further experience, 1C was found that sen could work with asbestos without development of lung disease if dust concentrations were kept below a certain level. It is now generally accepted that a man car. worn a 40-hour track for a life time without developing asbc;t._i_ 12 ;.c -zzz- a t -'-icli count is kept at or below 5 million particles per cub.c foot of air. This dust concentration of 5 million particles per cubce foot et air is tka Threshold Limit Value for asbestos, end no cases of asbestosis it- Known to have occurred when exposures have been maintained at or below this level, despite large-seale utilization (now approaching one cillior. tons per year in the U.S.A.). This concentration of dust is generally not visible in the average work area unless a beam of light causing a Tyndall effect is present. Usually the dust concentration must be from 8-10 million particles per cubic foot before its presence is visible in aver age lighting conditions. Several years ago, it was reported that there was ar. increase in Che incidence of cancerous tumors, especially of the lung, associated with asbestosis. Recently there have been reports of some cancers occurring in individuals exposed to asbestos dust, out who have not developed clinical asbestosis. It is believed by mcsc authorities chat these cases have been associated with exposures significantly exceeding the Threshold Limit Value. A major manufacturer of asbestos products who also mines asbestos has not been able to show an increase in cancerous growths in men working where dust concentrations were maintained at the Threshold Limit Value. Control of asbestos dust exposure is therefore necessary. The . control methods are the standard ones applicable to a variety of custy >: operation*. They include closed flow systems, vet processes where f. possible, end adequate exhaust ventilation where openings in Che system are necessary. Pelletizing is sometimes used eo improve the handling - characteristics of ochervist dusty materials. Where satisfactory con tainment to stay within Che Threshold Limit Value is impractical or impossible, efficient end reliable respirators are available for the protection of the employee. A program of environmental monitoring is highly desirable to determine chat Threshold Linit Values are not being exceeded. In paper manufacturing, it would be desirable to. know the dust concentrations where Che asbestos is dumped from bags into the pulp slurry. Concentrations should also be determined where dusting occurs^in_. 4 INTERNAL CORRESPONDENCE- *583 ( EMICALS AND PLASTICS -&*) hiilam Itmliam Fred Williams* PT > Mr. R. 0. 'dkiff Mr. -R. E. . eele /L; JJL W--- INSIltOIt MNl OWRU5IOM. WEST VIRGINIA 2533P Dolt January 24, 1973 Originating Dipl. Aaivirlng lilhr dill Employee Relations Hygiene/Safety Svijitl Asbestos Sampling Values 511 Insulation Fabrication Shop X, foM^LP.ioM /{76 *r,. *.T.V7 ^ 'Asbestos-fiber-counts $for samples we have collected at the Plant 511 Insulation Fabrication Shop are submitted for your information. They may serve as guidance for any sampling program you may initiate and they should be valid as part of a records program. Sample No. Date Sampling Time. min Fiber Count/ml -^512-HHF-01 3-8-72 *^512-HHF-02 3-8-72 '512-HHF-03 3-8-72 ''512-HHF-04 11-21-72 "512-HHF-05 11-21-72 m ^512-HHF-06 11-21-72 **512-HHF-07 11-21-72 512-HHF-08 12-4-72 *^512-HHF-09 12-4-72 512-HHF-10 12-4-72 * 512-HHF-ll 12-4-72 15 5 15 6 6 9 ' 15 15 -V 15 9 15 Too heavy to count * 61.5 24.5 min.**' 4.1 esm S. E. Painter - Dust collection removal for disposal. S. E. Painter - Dust *J*a <?'* ^ collector wearing y**//Tw# i#vV respirator. *r . S. E. Painter - End of dust removal job. Ii Mitchell - Butt sawing. .... 'i 4.1 H. Stanley - Janitor broom sweeping. 3.9 H. E. Samples - Cementing * ' 0.05 pie-formed bio eke-. L. I. Mitchell - Off bearing south saw 1st cut. 5.3 H. E. Witt - Separate, _ _ sawed block. - apply glue. Bad filter - not counted. 11.8 min.' '512-HHF-12 12-4-72512-HHF-13 12-4-72 - 512-HHF-14 12-4-72 ^512-HHF-15 12-4-72 C 4' 13 6.5 1*5 #9.8 j l!i . - *r-v: rrV~w*V Liifrra'rpy cartonvvith;^ pcs ff _ i ... Mrv Fred Willlaws . . Tage 2 January 24, 1973 All samples were collected on die person of the employee and each of them represents a peak exposure for the various wort; tasks. All. work was involved.with asbestos containing KAYLO block materials. _ The problem area most deserving corrective measures is obviously the dumping procedure of the shop dust collecting facility. Excessive exposures are encountered in die handling, especially packing, of sawed block material. .. _ Exposure values have not been reported to the employees nor to shop supervision. Very truly yours HHFillh H. H. Frazier C t Jon Carbide Corporation Chemicals and Plastics Institute, West Virginia c Special Report Medical Department 1 August 1973 ,, ASBESTOS IS i --------------------------------------------- SUMMARY " The Medical Department, early in 1973, completed the first survey including a comprehensive medical examination and obtained chest X-ray films on 70 Institute Plant workers who possibly have had or are still having exposure to asbestos-containing materials such as insulation, as required by law. The local radiologists who make and read X-ray films regularly for the Institute Plant diagnosed 20 cases (29%) of pneumoconiosis (asbestosis). The films on these 20 positive cases were interpreted by an impartial out-of-town radiologist who confirmed 11 cases (16%) as positive for pneumoconiosis. The law further requires this survey to be completed annually and the Medical Department will comply. It behooves the plant administrators to attempt to eliminate the hazard from asbestos. INTRODUCTION i ' The William-Steiger Occupational Safety and Health Act (OSHA) of 1970 emphasized the need for standards to protect the health of workers exposed to a potential hazard; e.g., asbestos. Exposure to asbestos may result in pneumo coniosis, a disease of the lungs that produces symptoms, abnormal physical findings jid X-ray changes of the lungs. The condition is progressive arid may result in partial or total permanent disability. Asbestos exposure is believed also to induce neoplasms; i.e., mesothelioma of the pleura or lung -- a tumor with an unfavorable prognosis. In 1972, the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH) published a criteria document, "Occupational Exposure to Asbestos," which simply is the criteria for a recommended standard. OSHA, in 1972, accepted the recommendations of NIOSH and adopted the recommended standards into the law. The medical requirements now are contained in Section 1910.93a(J). Since asbestos is a component of insulating materials which are widely used in industry, it is believed that some Corporation on-site Plant 512 employees had or ray still be having exposure to asbestos or asbestos-containing r.aterials. If so, the law requires that these individuals be included in a medical surveillance program conducted at company expense. MEDICAL SURVEILLANCE Medical management, as described in toio in the law, includes many facets but most important at present is (1) an attempt to ascertain the names of all employees who have had or may still be having exposure to asbestos and, after ^mpiling the list, (2) to complete a comprehensive medical examination on each of those individuals. - . For the former, the Medical Department sent an inquiry to various plant department heads, production managers and superintendents. Replies included names of 42 insulators, 2 laborers and 8 sheetmetal workers in the Maintenance Jepartment and the names of 18 operators in the Steam Plant Department. Insulators, , c c Page 4 Ever. under very severe ij-_; ox:.:: l lone , it may take five to ten years of exposure for c.~lcscsi s to develop. The onset is usual Iv.ins idious -ith_ ej]ly s.hr..-< of bi'ea*.:. and vague chest pains. bronchitis and increased "tsputum"are not a feature of the early stages-of the disease. Lung function tests cay show only a lowering of the total vital capacity. The radiographic diagnosis may Le more reliable and exacting in the early stages rather than by the symptomatology or the physical findings, particularly the latter, because these develop later. Pleural thickening.which `us-Jauiy seen"a'f'the lung bases. The normal vascular pattern is replaced or ^.obscured by small, irregular, fine, medium or coarse opacities. In time, these |become more profuse and extend to the upper lung field zones. Eventually, presented radiographically, may be the hazy appearance of the entire lungs -- the so-called "Ground Glass" appearance. This, of course, is a late sign. Another late radiographic sign that rarely occurs under 22 years of exposure is calcification of the pleura -- a striking feature -- and this may occur in the absence of any other clinical features. Eventually the outline of the left cardiac `border may become ill-defined and produce, in severe cases, the classical "Shaggy" j:-:-art appearance. - Early in the disease, despite a few uymptems. -- shortness of 'breath and vague chest pains -- there is an absence cf abnormal clinical findings except for the early X-ray changes. Except for the X-ray evidence and the elici tation of the exposure history, the diagnosis is difficult To make. Even after the diagnosis of pneumoconiosis is established, the etiology c-f the disease is even more difficult to make. Complicating factors are exposures in previous occupations, exposures in "moonlighting" ventures, hubbies, cigarette smoking and many others. As the disease progresses, there can be noted definite abnormal findings. There may be wheezing and fine basai rules. The fingers, and occasionally the toes, may be clubbed and with a careful occupational history to pinpoint continued exposure, a definitive diagnosis cun be advanced. In addition, the radiographic appearance will worsen and helps confire, the diagnosis. '* THE COXrREHENb'l VE !`L".);-CAL EXAMIXAl 10!.' During January, 1973, the Medical Department mailed requisitions tc 70 Plant 12 employees so they could obtain, at company expense, on their own ;:;.ie, a chest X-ray. When the interpretations were received by the Medical rDepartment, the employee was given an appointment to complete the remaining components cf the examination. The employee was asked to complete the front of icra. Xb-4; i.e., the brief work history, the medical history and the smoking history. The nurse obtained the employee's blood pressure, body temperature, respiratory rate, pulmonary function and other pertinent procedures. The medical technologist performed a hemoglobin and hematocrit on the eniployee's blood ^specimen. After obtaining and recording the above information, including the X-xvr-y report, the employee was examined by the physician. On completion, the employee was told the results -- either he had no problem or he had pneumoconiosis. If the laiter, the employee was .quested to complete Form: Xo-b -- a detailed history of his occupational experiences jn -u attempt to obtain aJcitional information that would pinpoint the etiolorv of :*cs pneumoconiosis. . u::ic;i CAn:::r" r^::~0"AT;r' : otK*. CXH. Jt__ ____z/ii/i-l---- M. : \ / ?:c r- * ' r.-t Asr.~rros TPATcr-T.rr.v r.T?err It has been known for cany years that seme persons working in asbestos production were prone to develop a disabling lung disease. In tice, this condition bceacs known as asbestosis and was related to exposure to high concentrations of asbestos dust. With further experience, it was found that esn could work with asbestos without development of lung disease If dust concentrations were kept below a certain level. It is now gen erally accepted that a can can work a 40-hour week for a lifetime without developing asbestosis if the asbestos dust particle count is kept at or below 5 ni 11 ion particles per cubic foot ot air. This dust concentration of 5 cillion particles per cubic fcot of air is the Threshold Licit Value for asbestos, and no cases of asbestosis arc known to have occurred when exposures have been caintair.ed at or bclcw this level, despite large-scale utilisation (now approaching or.e million cons per year in the U.S.A.). This concentration of dust is generally not visible in the average worlT*^ Carea unless a beam of light causing a_Tvr.riall effect is present. Usually the dust concentration cusc be from^5-10 million particles per cubic foot before <r *rs*n< <* islble in avgfdhu lir.ntir.g conditions. ' Qeveral years agg^ it was reported that there was an increase in the incidence os cancerous tumors, especially of the lung, associated with asbestosis. Pecentiy there have been reports of some cancers occurring in Individuals exposed to asbestos dust, but who have not developed clinical asbestosis. It is believed by nose authorities that these eases have been associated with exposures significantly exceeding the Threshold Limit Value. A major manufacturer of asbestos products who also mines asbestos has not been able to show an increase in cancerous growths in ma*\ working where dust concentrations were maintained at the Threshold Limit Value. L^Control of asbestos dust exposure is therefore necessary. The control methods are the staacaza.accs applicable'to a variety of operations. They include Closed flew gystcasyCwte proccsses where possible* and adequate exhaust ventilation wncrc openings"in the 3ysggr_arc ` T-' necessary. Pelletising is scmscimcs used to improve ehc^andlingjcharacter- ' 1 lstics/oi otherwise custy msterials. Where satisfactory containment to 3tay .. X- within tha Threshold Limit Value is Impractical or icrpossiblc.Cefficient ana - reliable respirators are available for Che protection of the employee. A program of environmental monitoring is highly desirable to determine that Threshold Limit Values arc not being exceeded. In paper manufacturing, it would be desirable co know the dust aor.eer.tracione where the asbestos is ~ dumped from bass into the pulp slurry. Cancer, eras ions should a*.so be ' determined whare custinn occurs in f inlshinc nrccucts. While fnitial dust _ 1MS-. dcccrminatictis should be made at '.frequent intervalSj once the leviil h:.as been established as satisfactory, Che frcnucncy'"msy be extended to ft'*'" occasional tests to assure continuation of a satisfactory condition. /7 KPQ.EX&22 ____________ u \ Pre-Placement Medical History ,Name Address -- .[i/[/<L Age U _. Clock No. 1 u*pjmoN EXHIBIT INDUSTRIAL HISTORY: To include past 10 years. Employer (Firm Name) Length of Service Nature of Work l/Cr. v- ___ L 4--. -------------- |y 1________________________rUxr. Has applicant been engaged in: Asbestos Work Molding in a Foundry. Sand Blasting. Mining or Tunnelling_______ Quarrying or Stone Cutting. ^'ad Work__________________ Where / z 2 /fa*l Z HEALTH HISTORY: Name and address of family pbysicia~^=. %z=- Last treated by a physician _ // *r ? 1 * r ....... Nature of illness Cr~t#----------- Ever suffered from any of the following? Asthma Bronchitis Fainting Spi Epilepsy Hay Fever / Heart TrotiW Pneumonia/ Pleurisy ' When How Long JSX3- Rheumatism Rupture Skin Rass Tuberculosis ital? Ever been a patient in a hospital?. Ever undergone a surgical operfalttiionnrY/H-Jj/^'l Ever suffered any serious injuries?--^ liver bad an injured or strained back?/7^ Ever had a lost time accident? "ver collected compensation?. DETAILS 4 ~ ff)l ~ A/ ' f* <_ ~*-y{ "mrj 4 -LUJ siiraa ^uotpsuadmoo papaijoo -^77 }uapt03B sail} ;soi b paq 'oJ^iX0Btl psnjBJjs JO painfui ub psq L,r=^fpj-t^saxjxifux snoxjas Xub pajajjns Sjfrpuot}^BJ3do iBot&ins b aao3.iapan -Z'Z^TAp'TiLWmJ'iIsoq * ! }03t}Bd b uaaq sxsoTtmaqnx sbdbh ups pi* 3Jn}dn^ y' msxjBnmaqij ^4/- ~tw Suo'i iioy uaqn ts\st,%\i iBtaoamaUtj / JBAaj Xbjj 4 Xsdattdj sMds Sujjcjxbx /yy/ sntqouoja J amqjsy ^aatMojxoj aqj jo Xoa mojj pajajjns ja ssannj jo BJnji 7?-----------T^7 aapxsXqd b Xq pajaaj} jsx ^-^V^'Viy'^pisXqd Xixnrej jo ssajppB puB am ^^ ;IH0XSIH HX1V Z ojoqjl ^ Z / V pB. -'SnijjnQ auo;g JO SarXxrenl 3njxiananx jo 3atax| ---------------------3axjsB[g paaJ Xiptmox b ax 3axp{oj .... .....vJL"jo `JJnxpuxjQ 'Saxtreai' sojsaqs-yl :ax paSaSoa aaaq }trB3Jidda sbjJ -------- V vj-"ir~>py>s hj--- Von jo ajnjBjj OH VI0 c. -- ' j aoiAjas jo q;3aaq /1-------------- :--------------,. *^r- ----------X^a-Z-JVr?7~~}^T-/L (ama# nuja) jaXoidmg sjbbX oi JSBd apnpax ox UHOXSIH IVIHXSaaHr ?z ssaxppv / r^amBjf^ Ajo)$m peoipap^ ^usiuoo^jj-ojj ` i. jaaoijddy jauimaxg 'INVld Xiradman ^Baimain o;iraBUQt^J *U9AiS uiaaaq uotjanixojui aqj oo pasaq si aooajdaooa qons paajs-rapun j *;aaai oidma joj pajdaooa ji 'jaqj pa* `joazioo paa aruj si jno jas aAoqa uotjennojat aqj ;aqj Zjijjao. Zqaiaq pins `aAoqa sjaastja pas saoijsanb aqj [[B paai'iSiinjaJBO aAaq j `dll (i'S , pajauiooax "` laiujsuafl C/Y> ssaasiQ Oinojqo jatRo y asaasiQ j.raaH . .. (^ TM==: ~qji/ stsoinojaqnx :jo xojstq Saijaoipai smo;dms uy (aatois^qd *q poainuajap aq ox) IHOXSIH mOSHSd ------------------------------------ - 5^--^suAOpqaajq snoAiaa ifay ^asaastp Sanj jajimts so sisoiimaqn) paq jaAa ifijnxaj jo jaqtnam ifay ________ '___________________________r-- /,__________________________ psa(j sjajstg paap siaqjojq loam mojj ns.suoq aog q^aaQ a8y jo asnoQ jaqjOH jaqjag paaa Ji m= u \i Cf 9 7~*l J>-$ qitH aSy jo aotjipnoo 3aiA.ii sjajsts 2o*aH sjaqjojq nanx aog jaqjoji jay*"^ 3oiaji ji Xjojsjh iSnmag INTERNAL CORRESPONDENCE II Ksvmoii -'Tfcil.n -- EMICALS AND PLASTICS I fir. Fred Williams' hiJto ' AT * Mr. R. 0. Midkiff Mr. R. . Peele /&; jJL tW~ J.NSIITUU riA.NI 0 !V-r N': CIURltSIOH. Wtsr VIRGINIA 25330 Dolt ' January 24, 1-973 Originating Drft, Amwrrlng Ulltr Jolt Employee Relations Hygiene/Safety ivljiii <-f'/j7 Asbestos Sampling Values 511 Insulation Fabrication Shop ~ to^LZlof* 'M !* . r.v.T*---''Asbestos7 fiber*counts <for samples we have collected at the Plant 511 Insulation Fabrication Shop are submitted for your information. They may serve as guidance for any sampling program you may initiate and they should be valid as part of a records program. Sample No. Date Sampling Time. min Fiber Count/i ^512-HHF-Ol 3-8-72 *^512-HHF-02 3-8-72 ''512-KHF-03 3-8-72 ^512-HHF-04 11-21-72 . '512-HHF-05 11-21-72 15 Too heavy to S. E. Painter - Dust count collection removal for disposal. 5 61.5 S. E. Painter - Dust 3*s S*'* ^ creosllpeicratotor rw'--e--a--r-i-n-*g t*t*1*' V*'* 15 24.5 min dust removal Job. 6 4.1 I. Mitchell - Butt lying. 6 mm gpaixa^o^saved^l^W|rn] ^512-HHF-06 11-21-72 512-HHF-07 11-21-72 ' 512-HHF-08 12-4-72 ` -'512-HHF-09 12-4-72 512-HHF-10 12-4-72 ' .* 512-HHF-ll 12-4-72 . 512-HHF-12 12-4-72* 512-HHF-13 12-4-72 ` - 512-HHF-14 12-4-72 *'T'512-HHF-15 12-4-72 *- 9 15 15 ** 15 9 15 4 13 '* 1*J 1*J 4.1 H. Stanley * Janitor - broom sweeping. 3.9 H. E. Samples - Cementing ' 0.05 pre-formed blocks. L. I. Mitchell - Off bearing south saw 1st cut. . 5.3 H. E. Witt- - Separate, sawed block. - apply glue. ^ Bad filter - not counted. 1 1' .8 *min. * ... blocks froastack-edglng,-|V> 4 V *2 7.8 r`it AH .E.>*`SamplessjSS awing; bb1lock/ <L5 L. I. Mitchell- Off bearing ^8| second cut - placing in carton. ,yr' "&< i-- Mrv Fred Wil'ilar.is rage 2 January 24, 1973 All samples were colleeccd on the person of the employee and each of them represents a peak exposure for the various work tasks. All. work was Involved.with asbestos containing KAYLO block materials. _ The problem area most deserving corrective measures is obviously the dumping procedure of the shop dust collecting facility. Excessive exposures are encountered in the handling, especially packing, of sawed block material. .. Exposure values have not been reported to the employees nor to shop supervision. .Very truly yours HHFtllh H. H. Frazier